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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2385

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Posted - 2013.08.29 19:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
As we have hinted several times before, Marauders are next on the Tech2 to-do list. And guess what? It's feedback time!
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As such, after much internal and CSM discussion, we have designed Marauders with two modes of operation, specialized in harassing tactics.
- In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield.
- In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.
This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.
=================================================================================================
Before we look at the hulls, here are the details about the Bastion module itself:
BASTION MODULE
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
- Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
- Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
- Has a cycle time of 80 seconds. Cycle is reduced by 5% for each level of Bastion module skill to a minimum of 60 seconds.
- When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
- When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
- Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
- Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
- Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL(name not final)
- Rank 8
- Perception, Willpower as Primary / Secondary
- Requires Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 (that's needed to fly a Marauder anyway)
=================================================================================================
Giving a new deployed mode is not enough however, as some modifications need to be made on the hulls themselves. First, we wanted to encourage Marauders to use Micro Jump Drives to move around, and as such have reduced mobility next to their Tech1 counterparts (bit higher mass and lower max velocity). We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top.
However, we realize Marauder hulls have a certain number of issues; as such we are significantly increasing their fittings so that they can fit Large Micro Jump Drives plus Heavy Capacitor Boosters with more ease (the Vargur especially needed more fitting options). We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode. We also are increasing their maximum targeting range and scan resolution a bit to make use of the increased damage projection, while decreasing their signature radius.
As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
Detailed changes below.
PALADIN
- Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
- Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
- Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
- Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
- Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30)
- Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400)
- Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
- Mobility (max velocity / agili...
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Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
176
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Posted - 2013.08.29 19:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
I really didn't expect this! Interesting - won't help me for PvE though!
EDIT - WOW - this is my first ever First :)) |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1486
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wow. Mini dreads. Ok.... |

SkupojHren
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
THIRD |

HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Not sure how well it works for PvE, but it doesn't suck next to other battleships now. |

Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2623
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
This could be a lot of fun, but I am gonna miss the drones that were cut down.
Sentinels in particular would be a great compliment to an immobile gun platform. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
umm... wow? -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
You will be adding replacement pants to the NEX store now, right? |

Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
660
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
w00t Page 1 ! :) HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression - The only way to go! |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1487
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Forget Bastion. Should totally be called Stand Your Ground modules. |
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Volitaire
3-Strikes Nulli Secunda
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'm getting rather tired of every ship 'upgrade' having a new, or multiple, associated skills go along with it. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1487
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Volitaire wrote:I'm getting rather tired of every ship 'upgrade' having a new, or multiple, associated skills go along with it.
This may not be the thread for it, but why? There are definitely people running out of things to train and -- let's face it -- this one in particular is far from a mandatory skill for most purposes. Unless you make a habit of removing high sec towers it seems pretty niche. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
So far I like. Will wait for the Round 2 and for them to appear on SiSi before a full "YEEHAA!". I'm a Golem Pilot and I like this "In-between" role for the Marauders.
Nice work! Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
406
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Base Floor.
Purty Vargurs comin'! |

a'akanelle
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Very interesting...
On the specifics of the proposal... Can you start to spool your MJD in Bastion mode? Assuming EWar immunity includes Scrams what is to stop a small gang of these in low-sec? Just Bastion mode for 60 seconds, spool your MJD at 55 seconds, and you are gone before you can be tackled.
That said Marauders V finishes in 2 days, so I am looking very much looking forward to flying these. |

Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
300
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree. |

Katia Echerie
D4RK M00N RISING Standing United.
22
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Posted - 2013.08.29 19:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hah... I was gonna say I called it but you posted that as I was writing that very same idea in another thread. So yeah... freken cool! |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ammo bay please. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Will the Skill(s) be seeded to TQ before the Winter Expansion or will it appear all at once? Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Sarmatiko
1362
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction. Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 300-500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps.
Other than that.. AWESOME! -¥ |
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Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
298
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration? |

adopt
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
607
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Anyone else think that their Paladin is going to go "vertical"
huehuehuehue Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
|

Ristlin Wakefield
Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
358
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Looks like a pretty useful ship for solo ships to clear out higher level DED sites and maybe incursion stuff. I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license. |

Ristlin Wakefield
Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
358
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
adopt wrote:Anyone else think that their Paladin is going to go "vertical"
huehuehuehue
I expect it to change color too and open a bit at the top. I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.
See the other side of the coin: You may actually see these ow used in Fleet Doctrines\PvP more often given this ability rather than shiny L4 Mission Runners and with that a lot more of them dying on the field. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
300
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
The MJD changes? fantastic. Grid changes? great. The extra high slot? meh but good deal. The 'just falloff and tracking' kind gives some turret types a much larger bonus, versus the missile one which is huge.
You are also missing the main bonus to the idea of 'mini-dreads': huge damage increases. Otherwise this is just a minor ammo type change.
|

Sun Win
161
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:I really didn't expect this! Interesting - won't help me for PvE though!
Why wouldn't the ability to max out your tank for 60 seconds at a time help you in PVE? |

Capqu
Love Squad
206
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
hey how come the siege module only gives missiles one bonus?
guns get application bonus + range missiles get range
doesnt really make sense to me http://pizza.eve-kill.net |

Khori Renalard
Those Once Loyal
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sounds like bastion mode would scream "VIOLATE ME NAO" if a hostile dread happens to be nearby. |

theDisto
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Wow. I'm not entirely sure what this is, or how it's going to work out, but looks super cool.
It might be worth adding a signature radius bonus to them while under Bastion to help them deal with bombers. |
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Dheeradj Nurgle
Hoover Inc. Black Legion.
517
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
I... oh wow.
The changes on the Missiles are kinda underwelming compared to the rest though. |

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
adopt wrote:Anyone else think that their Paladin is going to go "vertical"
huehuehuehue
Don't you touch my Paladin  -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

Volitaire
3-Strikes Nulli Secunda
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Volitaire wrote:I'm getting rather tired of every ship 'upgrade' having a new, or multiple, associated skills go along with it. This may not be the thread for it, but why? There are definitely people running out of things to train and -- let's face it -- this one in particular is far from a mandatory skill for most purposes. Unless you make a habit of removing high sec towers it seems pretty niche.
CCP is intentionally adding skills to increase training time to effectively use old ships, mods, etc. Instead, they should just roll the 'bastion' skillbook into say, Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration, as it serves the exact same function. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Capqu wrote:hey how come the siege module only gives missiles one bonus?
guns get application bonus + range missiles get range
doesnt really make sense to me
Paladins are in the same boat with only 1 "Weapon" bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

BadAssMcKill
Love Squad
335
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hella weird changes http://i.imgur.com/6j6cIZE.gif-á |

Mirrodin
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
65
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'm really curious about the application (or removal) of Marauders from the Alliance Tournament after this change. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Volitaire wrote:CCP is intentionally adding skills to increase training time to effectively use old ships, mods, etc. Instead, they should just roll the 'bastion' skillbook into say, Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration, as it serves the exact same function.
But that skill reduces Strontium Clathrate consumption:
"Skill at the operation of siege modules. 25-unit reduction in strontium clathrate consumption amount for module activation per skill level."
As noted in the OP:
Quote:Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Zane Lowe
I Need Some Brothers of Tangra
76
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Please please please give it a damage bonus too |

Torialdin
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Will we be able to activate bastion in HI? That will make level 4 mission too easy |

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
4553
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hmmmm. So-- the Bastion seems nifty! The thing is, though, that additional tanking isn't something that lights my fire. Sure, it helps, but aside from range, it doesn't seem much use.
I suppose with the additional tank, though, the idea is that more modules can be dedicated to damage application, increasing effectiveness against small targets.
Hm.
I don't want to go full meh on this, but it does seem underwhelming. |
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White Tree
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
904
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Transformers snipe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJMqGHofdec Former member of CSM6. |

Onslaughtor
Carbon Dateing
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Can I use it in high sec? Does bastion give optimal bonus (Paladin would be sad)? And did I do my math right (70% reduction in MJD time comes out to 54 sec)?
Also I love it.
|

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Anyone else thinking double XLASB Vargur with this will be OP.. like.. Dreadnought sized tank. -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

Antoine Jordan
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
- Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
This is weird. Falloff helps certain gun classes more than others. Missiles don't get a damage to application at all, just projection. If you have application/projection targets you're trying to hit, I think you'd be better off evening out the Bastion module effects in case of future use, and tweaking the specific Marauder stats to hit the goals. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants* Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Renegade Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Looks absolutely great!
My only question is why no bonus to damage?
This seems like an obvious thing to add to a concept such as the "Bastion Module".
This doesn't make sense because when coupled with the MJD module, as a Golem will still not be able to hit out to 100km and beyond using torpedoes, while the Paladin will be able to hit out much farther than 100km with or without the Bastion module. So my question is, why is damage projection a priority over raw damage, when the Marauders have very different concepts of damage projection to begin with? |

CueCue QQ
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
Badly needs a DPS bonus to go with it. For having to be 100% committed to an action for that kind of time, it should AT LEAST be able to kick around 3k DPS, 4k would be better. This is, after all, a highsec/subcapital WH dread. |

nonsciolist
don't do that
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:15:00 -
[48] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*.
I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control.. |

marVLs
379
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Awesome (i propose transforming BS's by myself ;) but for T3 ships).
But i still don't like TP bonus on Golem... You removed EW bonus from other marauders but leave this... I rather see 5% explosion radius reduction in it's place (with removing mid slot)
Second thing is Bastion module, looks very cool but...
- Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
Why two bonuses for turrets and only one for missiles? It should be 25% for missile max velo and explosion radius (then i will live somehow without expl bonus on Golem...). I believe it's only mistake because as You say it should give marauders better damage aplication, but without explo radius bonus it wont give it to missiles... |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
469
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
doesn't say if its a high slot module or not i assume so by the pg and the +1 high slot added to them all also i still think its weird they only use 4 turrets/launchers seems a little OP too me.
Also how much can a Vargur in bastion mode with ASB's rep .... 4 or 5 battleships????
Also kronos has a falloff and tracking bonus aswell as the vargur and golem has TP bonus still seems a bit OP too me Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2623
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
a'akanelle wrote:Very interesting...
On the specifics of the proposal... Can you start to spool your MJD in Bastion mode? Assuming EWar immunity includes Scrams what is to stop a small gang of these in low-sec? Just Bastion mode for 60 seconds, spool your MJD at 55 seconds, and you are gone before you can be tackled.
That said Marauders V finishes in 2 days, so I am looking very much looking forward to flying these. If you can't, the fact that a tackle will very likely have you targeted already otherwise makes you too much of an easy target.
The animation will tip them off when to click the point. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2395

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).
Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server 
Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though. |
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
469
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
CueCue QQ wrote:Badly needs a DPS bonus to go with it. For having to be 100% committed to an action for that kind of time, it should AT LEAST be able to kick around 3k DPS, 4k would be better. This is, after all, a highsec/subcapital WH dread.
that's just dumb ... don't caps do 2-3k dps?? these are clearly more about tank and range than raw dps Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
to everyone thinking that missiles should have another bonus like turrets have with falloff and tracking: falloff is only part of turrets range (in case of palading, it's really minimal), so to compensate for buffing only falloff (and not both optimal+falloff) turrets have second bonus. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
nonsciolist wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*. I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control. The OP even says: CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
Lovely, sorry, must've missed that with the excitement! Thanks. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
469
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
have you considered reducing the strength of the bonuses a little so many 10% bonuses 100% bonuses seems too much once stacked alongside this bastion module and in general? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
As someone with Marauders V trained on three different accounts, I'm excited about changes to this ship class. What I am not excited about is a new skill. Why can't the new module use either Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration or Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? This game doesn't need more skills. If necessary add a fuel bay and make the ship use Strontium or Heavy Water or something. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1168
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:Looks like a pretty useful ship for solo ships to clear out higher level DED sites and maybe incursion stuff.
No, the Marauder is now finished in Incursions, because "However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens."
So bottom line, the new module is completely useless in Incursions, and they lose their web bonus, and lose DPS because the drone bandwidth is one third of what it was.
Yeah, but this is working as designed, because the null sec cartels hate incursions, and anything they can do to wreck income in them, they will. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
469
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
I imagine the AT will be very different next year the marauders will just tank a whole team on their own Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[60] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:As someone with Marauders V trained on three different accounts, I'm excited about changes to this ship class. What I am not excited about is a new skill. Why can't the new module use either Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration or Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? This game doesn't need more skills. If necessary add a fuel bay and make the ship use Strontium or Heavy Water or something.
read first post |
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
469
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
so whats the time scale for their release? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2395

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those 
Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. |
|

Dredastttarm
Zeta Consulate
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
I say keep the web bonus on the Kronos and the Paladin, small stuff is hard to hit as it is. And webs are invaluble in incursions, which is where the Paladin is performing the most atm. |

CueCue QQ
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CueCue QQ wrote:Badly needs a DPS bonus to go with it. For having to be 100% committed to an action for that kind of time, it should AT LEAST be able to kick around 3k DPS, 4k would be better. This is, after all, a highsec/subcapital WH dread. that's just dumb ... don't caps do 2-3k dps?? these are clearly more about tank and range than raw dps Don't talk about something if you don't know what you're talking about. A single Moros does 12k DPS with a shitfit. 16k+ for a proper faction fit. |

Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
307
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
I like.
What sort of fuel of any will bastion use? what is the cycle time? www.wormholefundamentals.com www.youtube.com/user/asayanami www.twitter.com/Asayanami www.facebook.com/Asayanami.Dei
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1168
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:23:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
And I am certain you tested these ships in Incursions, right? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1211
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tracking and falloff bonused, ewar immune arty Vargur brick? Yes, please. Please, please sit in your piece of **** Falcon out at 80 or 90k. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:As someone with Marauders V trained on three different accounts, I'm excited about changes to this ship class. What I am not excited about is a new skill. Why can't the new module use either Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration or Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? This game doesn't need more skills. If necessary add a fuel bay and make the ship use Strontium or Heavy Water or something.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
70
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:24:00 -
[69] - Quote
will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
it's pretty dumb... caps can't jump when pointed or bubbled, yet a watered down version of them can...
|

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:so whats the time scale for their release?
Umm Winter? Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:25:00 -
[71] - Quote
O.o
*loginforchangingmyentireskillplan* |

Violet Winters
Angelic Eclipse.
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:25:00 -
[72] - Quote
No idea, to be honest - this is a very interesting change :D CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
|

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
So if I did my math right, a max skilled MJD pilot with a Marauder can jump in 2.7 seconds? 9 * .3 (70% reduction) = 2.7 -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1168
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:25:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
Tell me, how does one use the Bastion module in Incursions, when remote repping no longer works when in Bastion mode? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
359
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos
And you guys wonder why small ships are irrelevant in actual fights. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:26:00 -
[76] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
what if you're just about too rep and the timer runs out? does it shut off on its own? questions questions.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Saarus
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:27:00 -
[77] - Quote
can i has now plz? |

Novah Soul
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
Hmm I think I like so far. Ewar immunity means : fly Golem against Guristas, activate bastion mode, laugh at the failed attempts to jam you.  |
|

CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2466

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. |
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:27:00 -
[80] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Harvey James wrote:so whats the time scale for their release? Umm Winter?
mm... hilarious? .. i can read Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
|

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:have you considered reducing the strength of the bonuses a little so many 10% bonuses 100% bonuses seems too much once stacked alongside this bastion module and in general?
Shhhh now...100% = Less ammo required which fits with the Marauder description if you care to read it:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines." Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Zamnir Kuha
PH0ENIX COMPANY Tribal Band
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
So are we going to see blap-dreads with blap-marauder support? :p |

almanac Omaristos
Jian Products Engineering Group Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
Since you mentioned faction, you dev's should probly start thinking about boosting the ehp on both blood frigate and cruisers i wanna fly a ashimu and murder everthing. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:30:00 -
[84] - Quote
Asayanami Dei wrote:I like.
What sort of fuel of any will bastion use? what is the cycle time?
how can you like something that you didn't read how it works :) |

Xolanie
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:30:00 -
[85] - Quote
High slot Target Painter |

Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
569
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:30:00 -
[86] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos And you guys wonder why small ships are irrelevant in actual fights.
Don't be mad Trouser. As for this whole change I like it! Just give the Kronos it's web bonus back  Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at hoistthecolors.org |

God's Apples
The Tuskers
114
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:31:00 -
[87] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
it's pretty dumb... caps can't jump when pointed or bubbled, yet a watered down version of them can...
Nice badpost |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:31:00 -
[88] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
it's pretty dumb... caps can't jump when pointed or bubbled, yet a watered down version of them can...
i think you need to read mjd description, you can't use it if you're warp scrambled |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:31:00 -
[89] - Quote
almanac Omaristos wrote:Since you mentioned faction, you dev's should probly start thinking about boosting the ehp on both blood frigate and cruisers i wanna fly a ashimu and murder everthing.
They need too sort out the web bonus is it strength like serpentis or range as the bhaalgorn gets? that and reduce the OP webs/web bonuses Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
569
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
Zamnir Kuha wrote:So are we going to see blap-dreads with blap-marauder support? :p
Not from Tribal Band. From us? Who knows?  Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at hoistthecolors.org |
|

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
245
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:32:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
You need Jump Portal Generation for the Covert Jump Portal Generator, even though there is a useless activation cost reduction there, too. Anything else? |

SIR PRIME
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
Unless I'm missing something won't it basically allow you to solo kill any high sec pos? |

Cheng Chai
Random Awesome Holding Corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:34:00 -
[93] - Quote
The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....
That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. |

Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:35:00 -
[94] - Quote
Heated discussions on PIZZA comms about how useless in PVP this is in its current state.
Sounds like an amazing anom runner though.  Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Zamnir Kuha wrote:So are we going to see blap-dreads with blap-marauder support? :p Not from Tribal Band. From us? Who knows? 
good, all your marausers will be alphaed off the field pretty fast when you can't use logis on them :) |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:35:00 -
[96] - Quote
Cheng Chai wrote:The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....
That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur.
a little OP isn't it? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Sarmatiko
1362
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:..and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. Without proper bonus to salvaging (reduced cycle time) fitting Salvager on Marauder is not viable option. In current state, it's just better and faster to make bookmark on wreck and bring Noctis. And 3 Tracktor beams for looting is the best option. I wonder why you don't want to increase tractor beam bonus? It's not like it might affect PVP balance in any way or leave Noctis without currrent role. -¥ |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2397

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:35:00 -
[98] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:So if I did my math right, a max skilled MJD pilot with a Marauder can jump in 2.7 seconds? 9 * .3 (70% reduction) = 2.7
No, that's the spool up timer when you activate the MJD. The bonus reduces reactivation time by 70%. Thus, 180s*0.3 = 54 seconds. |
|

Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
387
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
For the love of God stop introducing new skills and modules for no reason and just balance the ships. This Bastion thing will be incredibly OP in niche situations and incredibly useless the rest of the time.
|

CueCue QQ
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
it's pretty dumb... caps can't jump when pointed or bubbled, yet a watered down version of them can...
i think you need to read mjd description, you can't use it if you're warp scrambled Scrams turn off MJDs and MWDs. Warp Disruptors do not. |
|

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:36:00 -
[101] - Quote
Cheng Chai wrote:The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....
That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi)
The time it will take will still be painful because of the lack of a DPS bonus, so have fun whittling away at them. Probably be better soloing C4s. -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

Callic Veratar
448
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:36:00 -
[102] - Quote
Quote:"Skill at the operation of siege modules. 25-unit reduction in strontium clathrate consumption amount for Siege Module activation per skill level."
Magic |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:37:00 -
[103] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:..and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. Without proper bonus to salvaging (reduced cycle time) fitting Salvager on Marauder is not viable option. In current state, it's just better and faster to make bookmark on wreck and bring Noctis. And 3 Tractor beams for looting is the best option. I wonder why you don't want to increase tractor beam bonus? It's not like it might affect PVP balance in any way or leave Noctis without currrent role.
mm.. give them a drone salvage bay Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1379
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:37:00 -
[104] - Quote
Does this mean that all 90% webs are going the **** away?
Because that would be awesome.
Also this is so weird i dont' really have an opinon on it... But this is definitely better than dedicated mission ships/bs's with t2 res like i was expecting.
Edit: Ok actually one thing
Why the flying freck is it acceptable to have blasters hitting up to 50 km? what the ****? BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1169
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.
Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.
Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.
All part of the plan, I assume. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Notmo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:38:00 -
[106] - Quote
Please tell me you are also increasing the frequency of incursions too? |

Elastoman
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:38:00 -
[107] - Quote
Why don't you go and fix power projection of supercarriers instead of inventing the module which EVE requires the least? Seriously, the time spent on creating this module is totally wasted. And nobody will ever think about training that new skill to level 5, because it's rank 8 and is useful only for one class of ships which is far from being as awesome as dreadnoughts.
Also it looks weird that only golem has EWAR bonus that helps apply his damage effectively. |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:38:00 -
[108] - Quote
I guess by now you are all trying to come up with a PVP use for a "stationary mode" ship which has lost the web bonus that could have gotten it kills through the siege mode ewar immunity. Something else than being obvious bait 2013.
1) MJD inside a hostile titan 2) siege inside titan before physics grid recognizes you 3) bump titan off grid ??? 5) profit |

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:38:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:So if I did my math right, a max skilled MJD pilot with a Marauder can jump in 2.7 seconds? 9 * .3 (70% reduction) = 2.7 No, that's the spool up timer when you activate the MJD. The bonus reduces reactivation time by 70%. Thus, 180s*0.3 = 54 seconds.
Ah I see, miss read the bonus, thought it said activation delay not reactivation. -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

Sarmatiko
1364
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:38:00 -
[110] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:No, that's the spool up timer when you activate the MJD. The bonus reduces reactivation time by 70%. Thus, 180s*0.3 = 54 seconds. Will other team tweak MJD activation indicator so we can see when it's ready to activate? If not, then promoting active MJD usage will bring just frustration. -¥ |
|

Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
4168
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[111] - Quote
I'd rather see a tracking penalty and a DPS increase. As is, where are you expecting these to be used? In nullsec, they will get eaten alive by bombers, in w-space they use too much mass (and can't fit into C1 holes where you really might like a mini-dread).
It seems to me like they will still be PVE boats, which you claimed you wanted to change. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
Ok....
Paladin, great changes
Golem, cap nerf.. Really?....
Kronos, removed 25m3 bandwidth so now it cant field 3 sentries making it even worse at pve.... Falloff bonus is odd but i can sorta see why
Vagur, capnerf again...
Scanres increase is great. Falloff bonus in bastion because scorch is kinda sad...
Overall speed nerf due to MJD is strange but ok...
For pve only paladin is really getting a buff, outside of bastion. Others get kinda nerfed. Esp Kronos..
Overall pretty disappointed. :/ |

Doctor Walter Nardley
Department Of Squid Removal
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[113] - Quote
Would the Bastion Module prevent jumping through wormholes? There are no aggression mechanics preventing somebody with a weapons timer from jumping through wormholes as far as I know. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[114] - Quote
surely switching out the TP bonus for a missile tracking bonus is more consistent especially with web bonus removal Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Gareth Burns
Astricom
27
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[115] - Quote
HOLY **** YES
Thank you CCP for actually thinking up something interesting! Noblesse Oblige Gû¦ Gareth Burns |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[116] - Quote
you we me new pants There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Khori Renalard
Those Once Loyal
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:39:00 -
[117] - Quote
No damage bonus on a module that turns your ship into an immobile weapons platform for 60s? With a brand new rank 8 skill to go along with it (instead of Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration as suggested before)?
Marauders are already at a lower dps compared to the pirate battleships and tanking is rarely the issue for PvE.
Meh. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1211
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:40:00 -
[118] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
Will you fix your tackle so that it has a scram on it? Damn you people are lazy with your long points, Hictors, and bubbles. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
433
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:40:00 -
[119] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Does this mean that all 90% webs are going the **** away?
Because that would be awesome.
Also this is so weird i dont' really have an opinon on it... But this is definitely better than dedicated mission ships/bs's with t2 res like i was expecting.
Edit: Ok actually one thing
Why the flying freck is it acceptable to have blasters hitting up to 50 km? what the ****?
Indeed I have to think about this a minute. At first blush I'd say just use tactical reconfic, and add a damage bonus of some sort.
....of course the next question.....BLOPS MEOW! |

oklem
Canadian Operations Yulai Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:40:00 -
[120] - Quote
This absolutely murders smartbombing marauders. |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:41:00 -
[121] - Quote
GÇóExtends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
why just falloff and not optimal range? does this not give a big boost to arty/blaster setups and not much for rails and lazors? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:41:00 -
[122] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Does this mean that all 90% webs are going the **** away?
Because that would be awesome.
Also this is so weird i dont' really have an opinon on it... But this is definitely better than dedicated mission ships/bs's with t2 res like i was expecting.
Edit: Ok actually one thing
Why the flying freck is it acceptable to have blasters hitting up to 50 km? what the ****?
i think 90% webs are insanely OP as-well Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
433
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:42:00 -
[123] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:GÇóExtends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
why just falloff and not optimal range? does this not give a big boost to arty/blaster setups and not much for rails and lazors?
Since they nerfed the AC/Blaster boats to hell with the TE change..... |

Arec Bardwin
1104
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:42:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
Quoted the best part. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:42:00 -
[125] - Quote
Two step wrote:I'd rather see a tracking penalty and a DPS increase. As is, where are you expecting these to be used? In nullsec, they will get eaten alive by bombers, in w-space they use too much mass (and can't fit into C1 holes where you really might like a mini-dread).
It seems to me like they will still be PVE boats, which you claimed you wanted to change.
I was kinda thinking the same... Lolhs and wh super niche is all they will see outside of pve.
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:42:00 -
[126] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:GÇóExtends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
why just falloff and not optimal range? does this not give a big boost to arty/blaster setups and not much for rails and lazors?
interesting point i think 25% is too much extra range 60km blasters are insane Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
4168
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:43:00 -
[127] - Quote
If you are going to make them PVE boats, how about a large salvage drone bonus? Less clicking for salvage makes people happy CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|

Gah'Matar
Knights of the Nyan
29
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:43:00 -
[128] - Quote
That new skill should be called "Castle Doctrine".
The Description should also refer to some obscure law from some place that used to be called "Texas". |

Volitaire
3-Strikes Nulli Secunda
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:43:00 -
[129] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Quote:"Skill at the operation of siege modules. 25-unit reduction in strontium clathrate consumption amount for Siege Module activation per skill level." Magic
Pray tell, what is the Bastion module based off of and has, essentially, the same function as? |

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
412
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:44:00 -
[130] - Quote
So we're getting physical transformations.
Of the Kronos.
Which is a Megatron, sorry, Megathron...
Hmm.
DECEPTICONS FOREVER! |
|

eneman81
Whale Girth Disavowed.
26
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
I endorse this change :p
should be interesting to see their use in whs |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:44:00 -
[132] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
Quoted the best part.
its odd that the golem is expected to waste a mid slot and cap on TP's instead of being given an explosion radius bonus instead it kind gets around this issue Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
186
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:45:00 -
[133] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
Add a fuel bay. Problem solved. |

Legion40k
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:45:00 -
[134] - Quote
artillery will FIT on a Vargur!?!?!?!?!?
holy hell |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:46:00 -
[135] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
what like you want explosion velocity... wonder how much of an affect that would have on torps. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Volitaire
3-Strikes Nulli Secunda
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Add a fuel bay. Problem solved.
Who really expected ******* Marauder changes to be the issue that unites N3 & CFC |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
117
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:47:00 -
[137] - Quote
will bastion disallow drones when activated, like the triage module does for carriers?
also, the 100% rep bonus and the 1.1 15% bonus PLUS uber resist bonus is gonna be sweet. anyone have a calculator? dying to here what they can tank |

Wizzard117
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:47:00 -
[138] - Quote
2 cents Default movement modes (warping, flying, jumping) does not require any fuel, but every other special movement type (siege mode etc.) does Bastion mode is not a default way marauders fly, so for the sake of consistence it should consume some resources whether it's heavy water or ozone or whatever else Adding extra fuel bay is a way to go |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:47:00 -
[139] - Quote
Two step wrote:If you are going to make them PVE boats, how about a large salvage drone bonus? Less clicking for salvage makes people happy
that would be cool... just make the role bonus include a bonus to salvage drone cycle time and mwd speed or something. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
412
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:47:00 -
[140] - Quote
My questions, as ever looking for good fights, outnumbered and/or unexpected fits to actually be engaged with a chance:
No improved scan res, that all BSs hugely suffer from? Are BSs officially meant to be supported by smaller ships and/or projecting modules, as we are always reminded capital ships rightly should?
Worse sensor strength? Because ECM is a mechanic that would ever get on TQ if proposed now, right? 
These don't use special local rep modules, correct? So all balancing around e.g. LARs will have to take these into account? So you basically won't be able to make ~75% effective fits on ships like the Tempest & Megathon, that are infinitely more engagable than Maelstroms and Hyperions.
Wasn't this the whole case about previously not buffing local tanking in general, that it would mess with PvE fits & isk/hour generation?! Now we get a huge nerf to local tanking setups via the ganglinks nerf, a small counter buff in rep power of modules, but not considering the major potency of combining them with links being the absolute cap use reduction(rather than efficiency), and the cycle time reduction allowing armour setups to get a rep off before exploding. It was 50:50 about the raw tanking paper values and about the number & size of cap charges needed to practically manually micromanage to keep your ship alive. And to not need to be Slaved/find the fitting to also cram a plate on with undersided guns to not be taken out by a little too much volley damage. And yet after all that, Marauders, the supposed pve ships, are getting a huge buff to tanking & fighting stupid rats.
Do you ever expect BSs to repeat previous popular actions of camp-busting when they're either these 1-trick pony things, predictable & avoidable Hype/Mael, or everything else that can't come close to these for brawling power? And given that ABCs +stealth bombers can bring the same weapon systems while kiting, are BSs officially relegated to living in the nullsec world of TiDi sov fights? Where, incidentally, insured dreads aren't likely to have a problem blapping these stationary pocked-dreads. |
|

bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
202
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:48:00 -
[141] - Quote
Would be quite nice if the marauder could use a new module like a tractor beam and when in range (-2500m), salvage AND loot the wreck. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:48:00 -
[142] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking. what like you want explosion velocity... wonder how much of an affect that would have on torps.
I suspect they removed the tracking bonus but he has put it in by accident judging by what rise said .. explosion velocity would be OP on top of the other bonuses from this mod which seems a little OP too me. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Zappity
Kurved Space
331
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:48:00 -
[143] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration?
This. If bastion is a stepping stone to dreads just make it the same skill. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:48:00 -
[144] - Quote
Wizzard117 wrote:2 cents Default movement modes (warping, flying, jumping) does not require any fuel, but every other special movement type (siege mode etc.) does Bastion mode is not a default way marauders fly, so for the sake of consistence it should consume some resources whether it's heavy water or ozone or whatever else Adding extra fuel bay is a way to go
true honestly this bastion mode is really just a small siege mode... so make it use stont... that and like you said add a fuel bay just for stront and cap boosters. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
473
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:49:00 -
[145] - Quote
Wow. Just wow. GREAT changes!!
I would like to know if you guys recognize that the sensor strength is still woefully small if you want them to see use in PVP. The Bastion ewar immunity is great, but the benefit of Bastion is the greatly increased tank and damage application bonuses. Are these ships intended to still fail when outside of Bastion?
Otherwise, aside from this niggle, I am very excited to see how these play in Singularity. +1 +1 +1 CCP! Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Liam Inkuras
Justified Chaos
417
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:49:00 -
[146] - Quote
Didn't want that Kronos anyways. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
473
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:50:00 -
[147] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration? This. If bastion is a stepping stone to dreads just make it the same skill. But they're not definite steps before piloting a dread, especially considering that Dreads no longer require Battleship V. Having a skill that specially applies to Marauders makes sense.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:51:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
that is soo damn awesome! null out to what 90km?
cant wait to kill these things in annoms with my Pizza runs There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:51:00 -
[149] - Quote
\O/ <-- My arms currently.
I've always loved marauders, and i've been waiting for a change, for a long time!
- I Love the bastion idea, its very cool, i do however think it's incredibly nich+¬, as i can see range being a giant factor when doing pvp stuff, also people will quickly learn when they're deployed and just move away, from the stuck marauder.
- I do hope that missiles get more than one bonus, as turrets does now. Maybe a bonus that makes torpedos hit better? - Range is probably still to short on a golem fitted with torpedoes, If my head-math is correct we'll look at a 30 km range of the torpedoes(on paper, obviously even less on moving targets) that is just way to little.
Another thing i dont understand is that marauders are still handicapped by the low sensor strength, Golems fight in gurista space, and to put it simply it's a pain using a marauder there.
Maybe remove that handicap, and make it exactly like the tech 1 version?
|

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:51:00 -
[150] - Quote
Mini Dreads? Completely unnecessary. Why not just use a dread? Surely you guys can start coming up with more unique ship applications instead of mimicking what's already there.
And as if players needed to be even more dominate in missions. Really? |
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:52:00 -
[151] - Quote
Id rather see full T2 resists and a bastion tank nerf, give bastion some other bonus instead if needed, t2 resists would give them somewhat ok ehp so they can take aleast some alpha. 2 rig slots and low base ehp can only do so much, even with massive rep bonuses and 30% resist |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:52:00 -
[152] - Quote
so what will the cost be of the bastion module? What is the expected cost all in? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

marVLs
382
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:53:00 -
[153] - Quote
And yeah BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL is not necessary remove it, we want tactical reco to be used.
Even now training for marauders its soooo long, so remove that another skill or at least make it easier to train like x3 or x4 but no more srly...
And don't nerf Golem cap, at least not so much...
And yeah Bastion module should give some damage bonus, at least 20%...
If that's too much OP then: Maybe change tanking bonus from 100% to 50% and add 30% damage bonus? |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
472
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:53:00 -
[154] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Add a fuel bay. Problem solved.
And those that don't have Tactical Reconfiguration trained will have to train that. At least this levels the playing field for this "New" adaptation of the marauder coming in a bit. I think it's agood thing not to increase complexity on a ship that doesn't require it by it's very definition:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments,"
You start adding fuel and it shortens the "prolonged deployment". Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:53:00 -
[155] - Quote
Also what's the point of the mass addition in bastion mod when it can't move anyway? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:53:00 -
[156] - Quote
Soleil Fournier wrote:Mini Dreads? Completely unnecessary. Why not just use a dread? Surely you guys can start coming up with more unique ship applications instead of mimicking what's already there.
right cuss you can use a dread in high sec right?
ever heard of the bajillion poses just sitting doing **** all There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Creepy Brutor
Maltreatment
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:54:00 -
[157] - Quote
Sweet Jesus
<3 |

Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
182
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:54:00 -
[158] - Quote
The ultimate gay station games ships. Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |

Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
569
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:54:00 -
[159] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Tara Read wrote:Zamnir Kuha wrote:So are we going to see blap-dreads with blap-marauder support? :p Not from Tribal Band. From us? Who knows?  good, all your marauders will be alphaed off the field pretty fast when you can't use logis on them :)
I'm already told a flat no on using these : ( useless marauders 5 still... Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at hoistthecolors.org |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
293
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:55:00 -
[160] - Quote
Guess its time to sell that Kronos - I like the idea but not as an evolution of Marauders :( |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1247
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:55:00 -
[161] - Quote
Junko Sideswipe wrote:The ultimate gay station games ships.
yeah... please make all 0.0 stations "kick out" death to station games There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
562
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:55:00 -
[162] - Quote
BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL
What do I get from training it to V, compared to just I? German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
472
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:55:00 -
[163] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration? This. If bastion is a stepping stone to dreads just make it the same skill.
And those that don't have Tactical Reconfiguration trained will have to train that. At least this levels the playing field for this "New" adaptation of the Marauder Class coming in a bit. I think it's a good thing not to increase complexity on a ship that doesn't require it by it's very definition:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments,"
You start adding fuel and it shortens the "prolonged deployment". Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
308
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:55:00 -
[164] - Quote
Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.
www.wormholefundamentals.com www.youtube.com/user/asayanami www.twitter.com/Asayanami www.facebook.com/Asayanami.Dei
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1247
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:56:00 -
[165] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Also what's the point of the mass addition in bastion mod when it can't move anyway?
not sure but i would guess to combat against bumping? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:56:00 -
[166] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Also what's the point of the mass addition in bastion mod when it can't move anyway?
Perhaps to make them harder to bump.
Edit: Snap. |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
167
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:57:00 -
[167] - Quote
Seems a bit conflicted. The tractor bonus means they do the mission job best at <48km, but it seems they're being encouraged to be snipers now. Other than the bastion module and DLAs, what good are the utility highs at long range?
Also, not sure why the EHP and cap regen nerf were needed? (Looking at the Vargur specifically.) |

Izi55IzI
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:58:00 -
[168] - Quote
Well i expected the marauder "rebalancing" will be stupid, but damn, this is a whole new level of dumb, while you're at it, make the remaining 4 slots into yu-gi-oh card launchers.
How hard is it to make a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght?
I especially find the harrasing angle funny, you're making a slower, less base armor/shield, less dps, than pirate/faction battleship into a "harrasing" bs, just because you should fit a MJD. You do realize that people actually fit scramblers? And how exactly does that add to the fitting options? Looks like MJD and Cap booster are going to be mandatory along with the bastion module.
Anyway stop using alcohol or drugs while changing the game, worse, if you're sober while doing it, fire the people behind those ideas.
You already ****** up the marauders once, don't do it again.
I know your just going to ignore everything I just wrote, since you have an infinite number of fanboys wanting transformation effects, but can I at least get my skillpoints back from the marauders V skill?
|

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:58:00 -
[169] - Quote
Asayanami Dei wrote:Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.
Smartbomb bonus is my vote  -Bl+¦d
Wormholes are the best Space.. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
472
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:59:00 -
[170] - Quote
Soleil Fournier wrote:Mini Dreads? Completely unnecessary. Why not just use a dread? Surely you guys can start coming up with more unique ship applications instead of mimicking what's already there.
And as if players needed to be even more dominate in missions. Really?
It's a step in-between and some people can't afford Dreads and Marauders were in dire need of an overhaul...this give potential Dread Pilots a feel and a little taste (possibly) of how to operate one. I'm not a Dread Pilot (can't afford one) but I can see this filling the in-between role nicely. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
|

raawe
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:59:00 -
[171] - Quote
hmm, can't say i really like it. MJD will not help with survivability, still got really low sensor str. Will take a look here and there to see where this is going. We already have dreads time to think of something else |

Jedediah Arndtz
Warner Bros.
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:59:00 -
[172] - Quote
Why does the Bastion give a dual bonus to guns, and not missiles? And falloff is kinda **** for pretty much anything but Projectiles.
Also, please keep the skillname as "BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL" |

Rainhailer
Daktaklakpak.
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:59:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
What about wormhole activations? A tenfold increase is mass will make them as massive as an Archon. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
188
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:59:00 -
[174] - Quote
Just yes.
Have issues with a gatecamp? Jump your marauder in, press 'stay' and go near invincible. Especially given those 3 option highs, makes me want to stuff them with RR and do nice vargur(RR>>)claymore and Kronos(RR>>)Eos action. Looks like the tanking values of those marauders will be approx. 50% of what a dread can dish out, while acting as acceptable logi for small sizes \o/
To me, it sounds like a jumpable on-grid-HQ. Totally like. In the case of the vargur, I'd propose to hang a flag with the corplogo. "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
276
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:01:00 -
[175] - Quote
First, love you long time.
Second, don't give it a damage bonus because that would be overpowered. It should have this tracking/range bonus OR a damage bonus, both would be too good and would need to be nerfed. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Torialdin
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:02:00 -
[176] - Quote
Will i be able to jump through WH with active bastion ? |

GeeShizzle MacCloud
342
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:02:00 -
[177] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/79vro9J.png |

Khanid Voltar
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:03:00 -
[178] - Quote
Like the changes very much. Was not at all what I was expecting.
Initial feedback re: Bastion Module skill would be to make it a lower rank - maybe 5 or 6. Initially I was in agreement with the naysayers (oh no, not another skill), but if there has to be a skill it should have a lower rank than siege / triage skills which are for capital and not subcapital ships. |

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
119
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:03:00 -
[179] - Quote
Thought for Bastion Mode -
Can we get it so the Marauder in Bastion Mode is unprobable?
This would help it immensely survive against on-grid probing if it's in a sniper role, as there's little point in being fixed at near-warpable distances that isn't a death sentence.
This also has the dual-purpose of making Marauders very good for dangerous mission running in Low Security / Null Security. If your mission is trying to be broken into, you can Bastion mode to disguise yourself and protect the mission. Hunters will have to wait for you at stargates or stations then, unless they play the waiting game with you.
That would give them a very useful niche PVE role as well, as only Tech 3 Cruisers could hope to mission in that manner. Unlike the Tech 3s, though, the Marauder doesn't have system wide affecting capabilities (boosting).
True Slave Foundations Overseer
-ò |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
472
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:04:00 -
[180] - Quote
Torialdin wrote:Will i be able to jump through WH with active bastion ?
You can't move with an active Bastion so I doubt it. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
|

William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:04:00 -
[181] - Quote
I don't like the new skill.
Why not have the module require the "Marauders" skill and bake the CD reduction into the hull? |

Torialdin
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:05:00 -
[182] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Torialdin wrote:Will i be able to jump through WH with active bastion ? You can't move with an active Bastion so I doubt it.
to jump you dont need to move |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
474
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:05:00 -
[183] - Quote
Torialdin wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Torialdin wrote:Will i be able to jump through WH with active bastion ? You can't move with an active Bastion so I doubt it. to jump you dont need to move
True and touche  Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

sten mattson
1st Praetorian Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:06:00 -
[184] - Quote
the amarr got shafted again:
paladin: 5% capacitor 7,5% optimal 10% capacitor reduction bonus 5% damage
only gets one damage bonus , and no tracking bonus like the others.
kronos: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level 7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
2 dmg application bonuses , one damage bonus
vargur , the same
i would say roll in the capacitor bonus into the hull , and get rid of the cap use bonus , it uses almost no cap anyways. and put in a tracking bonus like the others , or let it keep the magnificent web bonus it had before while still rolling the cap amount bonus into the hull. IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |

Torialdin
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:07:00 -
[185] - Quote
mass bonus will give new possibilities to close WH |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
118
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:08:00 -
[186] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Also what's the point of the mass addition in bastion mod when it can't move anyway? does mass affect being bumped? that might be it but im not sure |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:08:00 -
[187] - Quote
Izi55IzI wrote:Well i expected the marauder "rebalancing" will be stupid, but damn, this is a whole new level of dumb, while you're at it, make the remaining 4 slots into yu-gi-oh card launchers.
How hard is it to make a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght?
I especially find the harrasing angle funny, you're making a slower, less base armor/shield, less dps, than pirate/faction battleship into a "harrasing" bs, just because you should fit a MJD. You do realize that people actually fit scramblers? And how exactly does that add to the fitting options? Looks like MJD and Cap booster are going to be mandatory along with the bastion module.
Anyway stop using alcohol or drugs while changing the game, worse, if you're sober while doing it, fire the people behind those ideas.
You already ****** up the marauders once, don't do it again.
I know your just going to ignore everything I just wrote, since you have an infinite number of fanboys wanting transformation effects, but can I at least get my skillpoints back from the marauders V skill?
You're missing the entire point of the Marauder rebalancing. The goal is not to have stronger T1 BSs, which is what you're wanting with "a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght" (sic). If you want stronger dps, then use a pirate or Navy BS, and if you're looking for strong tank, then use a Marauder.
They'll have plenty of application as tanky weapons platforms, and the lack of sensor strength is compensated with the immunity to ewar. There isn't necessarily a need for strong sensor strength outside of bastion if CCP is trying to give compelling reasons to fly one ship over the rest.
If these ships just performed like a Vigilant or Mach, what would be their intent? Why use these over them or a Navy BS? CCP is creating the situation that if you want a strong, mobile platform that tanks extremely well, but has to commit to it, then use a Marauder. If you want a strong tank on a platform that very agile and doesn't have to commit, but has a lot of dps, then a pirate BS is what you should be looking at. Lastly, if you want an agile BS with good tank and strong ehp and damage, fly a Navy BS, and they'll be cheaper to boot. (Then of course you can always fly T1 for a solid all-around performer at a bargain-basement price.)
I think the specialization provided by these T2 BSs is very clear, concise and awesome. Their role is clear, and outside of a few tweaks, I'm excited to give them a shot when they hit singularity. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

TheHatedMiner
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:08:00 -
[188] - Quote
you have battleships, that are around 1-2k dps. how about buffing the marauders so they fill the insane gap between battleships and dreads? how about somehing like 3-4 maybe 5k dps, and the ability to tank like a baws, since that is what I would be looking for in a t2 BS, something that bridges the gap |

Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
576
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:08:00 -
[189] - Quote
Crazy stuff I have no idea how good it will be or if it will be balanced, but it's daring and unusual, so I kinda like it  . |

Onslaughtor
Carbon Dateing
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:08:00 -
[190] - Quote
Ghost Hunter wrote:Thought for Bastion Mode -
Can we get it so the Marauder in Bastion Mode is unprobable?
This would help it immensely survive against on-grid probing if it's in a sniper role, as there's little point in being fixed at near-warpable distances that isn't a death sentence. (It also incentives Interceptors or MJDing battleships hunting them down)
This also has the dual-purpose of making Marauders very good for dangerous mission running in Low Security / Null Security. If your mission is trying to be broken into, you can Bastion mode to disguise yourself and protect the mission. Hunters will have to wait for you at stargates or stations then, unless they play the waiting game with you.
That would give them a very useful niche PVE role as well, as only Tech 3 Cruisers could hope to mission in that manner. Unlike the Tech 3s, though, the Marauder doesn't have system wide affecting capabilities (boosting).
Something like this |
|

Nimrodion
Globaltech Industries Yulai Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:09:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL
DON'T FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKEN - LEAVE IT AS IT IS!!!     |

Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
388
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:10:00 -
[192] - Quote
Ghost Hunter wrote:Thought for Bastion Mode - This also has the dual-purpose of making Marauders very good for dangerous mission running in Low Security / Null Security. If your mission is trying to be broken into, you can Bastion mode to disguise yourself and protect the mission. Hunters will have to wait for you at stargates or stations then, unless they play the waiting game with you.
That would give them a very useful niche PVE role as well, as only Tech 3 Cruisers could hope to mission in that manner. Unlike the Tech 3s, though, the Marauder doesn't have system wide affecting capabilities (boosting). Yea it's not like they're going to be stupidly OP for most PvE roles with the current listed changes anyway.
Awful idea. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:11:00 -
[193] - Quote
It will be something very plain and easy to read. Flavor from the skillbooks is being stripped on Sept 3. Following what we see there, I expect the skill to be called "Marauder Transformation Skill."
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
474
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:11:00 -
[194] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: -Snipped- I think the specialization provided by these T2 BSs is very clear, concise and awesome. Their role is clear, and outside of a few tweaks, I'm excited to give them a shot when they hit singularity.
Maximii agree. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Tim Ryder
Bloomingdale Industries Inc
20
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:12:00 -
[195] - Quote
Main problem with marauders for PvE - which is the only part of EvE I know crap about - is the low resists and thus low ehp. Really hoped you'd fix that instead of adding dancing girls or making it a mini dread. All in all this will still be interesting, but waltzes around the real problem. |

Capqu
Love Squad
209
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:12:00 -
[196] - Quote
after thinking it through they seem pretty limited in their pvp applications
in small scale pvp seem i figure you can just ignore them, as theyre low damage, low maneuverability platforms with huge active tank. i guess you could just not use bastion in which case why not just have a t1 bs for 1/4th the price, or a pirate bship if you wanna splash yo cash
in large scale pvp they dont have any buffer and are the most expensive ship on field so they just instantly get primaried and die, similar to pirate battleships
sure the mjd cooldown is cute but realistically it's not that useful when combined with a 60 second siege, you're gonna get scrammed - especially since everyone knows youre gonna have one
they seem designed for long range sniping, but in an era where everyone has a combat probe alt that aint gonna fly
for pve, which i have never done, i'm being told they look amazing however http://pizza.eve-kill.net |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:13:00 -
[197] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Izi55IzI wrote:Well i expected the marauder "rebalancing" will be stupid, but damn, this is a whole new level of dumb, while you're at it, make the remaining 4 slots into yu-gi-oh card launchers.
How hard is it to make a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght?
I especially find the harrasing angle funny, you're making a slower, less base armor/shield, less dps, than pirate/faction battleship into a "harrasing" bs, just because you should fit a MJD. You do realize that people actually fit scramblers? And how exactly does that add to the fitting options? Looks like MJD and Cap booster are going to be mandatory along with the bastion module.
Anyway stop using alcohol or drugs while changing the game, worse, if you're sober while doing it, fire the people behind those ideas.
You already ****** up the marauders once, don't do it again.
I know your just going to ignore everything I just wrote, since you have an infinite number of fanboys wanting transformation effects, but can I at least get my skillpoints back from the marauders V skill?
You're missing the entire point of the Marauder rebalancing. The goal is not to have stronger T1 BSs, which is what you're wanting with "a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght" (sic). If you want stronger dps, then use a pirate or Navy BS, and if you're looking for strong tank, then use a Marauder. They'll have plenty of application as tanky weapons platforms, and the lack of sensor strength is compensated with the immunity to ewar. There isn't necessarily a need for strong sensor strength outside of bastion if CCP is trying to give compelling reasons to fly one ship over the rest. If these ships just performed like a Vigilant or Mach, what would be their intent? Why use these over them or a Navy BS? CCP is creating the situation that if you want a strong, mobile platform that tanks extremely well, but has to commit to it, then use a Marauder. If you want a strong tank on a platform that very agile and doesn't have to commit, but has a lot of dps, then a pirate BS is what you should be looking at. Lastly, if you want an agile BS with good tank and strong ehp and damage, fly a Navy BS, and they'll be cheaper to boot. (Then of course you can always fly T1 for a solid all-around performer at a bargain-basement price.) I think the specialization provided by these T2 BSs is very clear, concise and awesome. Their role is clear, and outside of a few tweaks, I'm excited to give them a shot when they hit singularity.
The focus is nice to see its so specialist and situational.. compared to HAC's on the other hand which are so unfocused and basically expensive navy versions Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:14:00 -
[198] - Quote
PVE: GÇó Every one of them gains a big buff, especially Kronos and Paladin (neutron/megapulse). Golem becomes better at torpedoes with the range bonus. GÇó They all will afk steamroll ded10/10 in t2 gank fits. GÇó They can fit 3 smartbombs and sit in forsaken hub / gate haven spawn with improved close range weapons; beats vindicators due to smartbombing. GÇó WH stuff, incursion stuff, shiny fits solo tank it all except for neuts. The numbers would put a 5k-10k active tank pretty standard with deadspace mods and crystals.
A damage bonus would be stupid overkill on these and obsolete everything else in pve.
|

Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:15:00 -
[199] - Quote
can we please not get rid of the web percent bonus of the marauders, i fail to see how making them tiny vulnerable dreads would make them any more viable for pvp and with out the web bonus they or drones a single mission rat gets you killed. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:15:00 -
[200] - Quote
Tim Ryder wrote:Main problem with marauders for PvE - which is the only part of EvE I know crap about - is the low resists and thus low ehp. Really hoped you'd fix that instead of adding dancing girls or making it a mini dread. All in all this will still be interesting, but waltzes around the real problem.
Edit: Love the PG additions, especially having a Vargur that can fit arties. Maybe you missed the part in the original post that stated:
Bastion Module: "Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated"
The "mini dread" part of your reply you almost state as if it is a negative against these hulls. I couldn't disagree more. Having better damage application through the Bastion Module is going to allow missions to be blitzed much faster. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
|

Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:15:00 -
[201] - Quote
So, uh, to go along with the further wonking of cooldown times on the MJD, can we have a way to tell when they're ready to fire again? |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
118
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:17:00 -
[202] - Quote
would it be possible to add a script to the bastion that allows you to choose between range/damage application and actual damage? |

Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
389
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:17:00 -
[203] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:
If these ships just performed like a Vigilant or Mach, what would be their intent? Why use these over them or a Navy BS?
resists, utility highs
Maximus Andendare wrote: but has to commit to it, Confirming that a 60s cycle time with ewar immunity and a hull bonused to MJDs is a HUGE commitment. I mean yea, competent gangs are still going to have a good shot at you, but this isn't like a sieged dread or anything. Don't forget that they can't point you while you're in bastion so they have to time it really well. 60s isn't a large enough commitment that you're going to get batphoned and dropped most of the time.
Maximus Andendare wrote: I think the specialization provided by these T2 BSs is very clear, concise and awesome.
It's awful. |

Tim Ryder
Bloomingdale Industries Inc
20
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:18:00 -
[204] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Tim Ryder wrote:Main problem with marauders for PvE - which is the only part of EvE I know crap about - is the low resists and thus low ehp. Really hoped you'd fix that instead of adding dancing girls or making it a mini dread. All in all this will still be interesting, but waltzes around the real problem.
Edit: Love the PG additions, especially having a Vargur that can fit arties. Maybe you missed the part in the original post that stated: Bastion Module: "Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated" The "mini dread" part of your reply you almost state as if it is a negative against these hulls. I couldn't disagree more. Having better damage application through the Bastion Module is going to allow missions to be blitzed much faster.
Nopes, didn't miss that at all. Low ehp isn't a problem in actual PvE, but mainly at gates/station. Won't bastion there, will you now? |

YaSiS
Alpha Centauri Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:18:00 -
[205] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume.
+1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HxwAEpdS2Y&feature=plcp |

White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:19:00 -
[206] - Quote
i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:20:00 -
[207] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Awesome (i proposed long time ago transforming BS's by myself ;) but for T3 ships). But i still don't like TP bonus on Golem... You removed EW bonus from other marauders but leave this... I rather see 5% explosion radius reduction in it's place (with removing mid slot) Second thing is Bastion module, looks very cool but...
- Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
Why two bonuses for turrets and only one for missiles? It should be 25% for missile max velo and explosion radius  (then i will live somehow without expl bonus on Golem...). I believe it's only mistake because as You say it should give marauders better damage aplication, but without explo radius bonus it wont give it to missiles...
I agree... knock the missile boats down some more will you? Isn't it about time the playing field gets leveled again. I want to finally blow the dust off my missile skills and use some form of missle boat again. I can see how ccp might be a bit scared of re-opping missiles again.. but its not fair to continue to maim missile ships like this. |

YaSiS
Alpha Centauri Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:20:00 -
[208] - Quote
Seems like CCP forgot the PVE side of the Marauders. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HxwAEpdS2Y&feature=plcp |

Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
104
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:20:00 -
[209] - Quote
Hopefully the current discrepancy between the bonuses for range and damage application between missiles and turrets is just a typo, otherwise please fix that right away and give the weapons systems equal bonuses.
Overall, I think this change is a good one, but there are some concerns:
First of all, I sympathize with the people who are saying that a new Skill just to use this very specific and limited module seems excessive. At the very least, it should have a low multiplier, because people are already training a very high multiplier to be able to use this very specialized ship, and shouldn't be slapped with another one before they can really properly use it.
Second, I think the tractor beam bonus should be done away with entirely. Not only is it completely outdated in an era where the Noctis exists, but it makes no sense from a flavor perspective, since a ship that goes on long deployments behind enemy lines has no use for salvage/loot.
Third, please bump all the drone bays up to at least 75m3 and the bandwidths up to 50. A ship that is meant to be deployed solo should have a response to small threats, and, especially if you are removing web bonuses, drones seem like the proper solution. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
475
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:21:00 -
[210] - Quote
White Bear Maricadie wrote:i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission
I have to agree with the reduction in the Drone Bay Capacity. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
|

Aralez
Army Of Penguins
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:21:00 -
[211] - Quote
Vargur was already my favorite ship, now i just love them more! When can we expect to test this out on Singularity? |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
478
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:22:00 -
[212] - Quote
Tim Ryder wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Tim Ryder wrote:Main problem with marauders for PvE - which is the only part of EvE I know crap about - is the low resists and thus low ehp. Really hoped you'd fix that instead of adding dancing girls or making it a mini dread. All in all this will still be interesting, but waltzes around the real problem.
Edit: Love the PG additions, especially having a Vargur that can fit arties. Maybe you missed the part in the original post that stated: Bastion Module: "Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated" The "mini dread" part of your reply you almost state as if it is a negative against these hulls. I couldn't disagree more. Having better damage application through the Bastion Module is going to allow missions to be blitzed much faster. Nopes, didn't miss that at all. Low ehp isn't a problem in actual PvE, but mainly at gates/station. Won't bastion there, will you now? Well, now you're confusing, since the first thing you said is "main problem with Marauders for PVE . . . is the low resists and thus low ehp." Now, you say that "[l]ow ehp isn't a problem in actual PVE." So, which is it?
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Olaf4862
KnownUnknown
27
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:22:00 -
[213] - Quote
Can we seriously get rid the tractor beam range bonus. I have this thing called a noctis. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1212
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:23:00 -
[214] - Quote
White Bear Maricadie wrote:i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission
Yes, because being able to MJD off to range and siege up to one-shot the frigs is such a liability, especially when you're a bare few seconds from being able to MJD again when you come out of siege mode on these things. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
120
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:24:00 -
[215] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Ghost Hunter wrote:Thought for Bastion Mode - This also has the dual-purpose of making Marauders very good for dangerous mission running in Low Security / Null Security. If your mission is trying to be broken into, you can Bastion mode to disguise yourself and protect the mission. Hunters will have to wait for you at stargates or stations then, unless they play the waiting game with you.
That would give them a very useful niche PVE role as well, as only Tech 3 Cruisers could hope to mission in that manner. Unlike the Tech 3s, though, the Marauder doesn't have system wide affecting capabilities (boosting). Yea it's not like they're going to be stupidly OP for most PvE roles with the current listed changes anyway. Awful idea.
Care to elaborate how it's awful, other than 'I can't mission gank a high value BS'?
From how I see it -
Could protect High Sec missions, generally only worthwhile if you are flying dangerously shiny - but you're more likely to get ganked on a stargate. A war target could be coming for you, but they still have the station/stargate trap option.
Incursions, not relevant for unprobability in High/Low Incursions due to site beacons.
Exploration, can have your sites broken into unless they're an escalation site. Hunters have to revert to the stargate/station trap option for that.
Low/Null Security missions, as mentioned allow the Marauder to protect their mission against roamers who must either setup a trap, play the waiting game, or move on.
Wormhole Space, could be annoying but all sites are probable. You'll have to pay attention to sift it out and see if its at a site or safe spot sitting for some reason, but generally catchable here.
True Slave Foundations Overseer
-ò |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:26:00 -
[216] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:White Bear Maricadie wrote:i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission Yes, because being able to MJD off to range and siege up to one-shot the frigs is such a liability, especially when you're a bare few seconds from being able to MJD again when you come out of siege mode on these things.
And they're MWD'ing towards your Golem...let's think about that for a bit... Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
262
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:26:00 -
[217] - Quote
HOLY BALLS. What follows will be a mess of words.
I've been waiting for this change discussion ever since I boarded the Vargur. I did not expect mini-Dreads. BUT THEY SOUND AWESOME. I'm sad for my drone bay, but my ship will transform. I CAN FIT ARTILLERY NOW. Thank you thank you thank you. Combined with the MJD reactivation, a rabbit jumping artillery platform is within reach for the Vargur. Thank you for not making the Bastion cap drain or require fuel. I've got loot to put in the hold and need all the room I have The speed and mass hits are saddening. Why does the Minmatar hull suddenly have the fattest ass? That's not very... Minmatari. Many thanks for increasing the scan resolution, now frigates won't take an hour to lock.
HOLY BALLS THIS IS AWESOME.
Does kicking on the ewar immunity break existing ewar, I assume?
IT'S GOING TO BE FREAKING SWEET TO BLINK AROUND THE PLACE FIRING THE BIG GUNS. And then Dread up and laugh. Muwahahaaa. |

SkupojHren
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:26:00 -
[218] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5 |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:28:00 -
[219] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:White Bear Maricadie wrote:i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission Yes, because being able to MJD off to range and siege up to one-shot the frigs is such a liability, especially when you're a bare few seconds from being able to MJD again when you come out of siege mode on these things. And they're MWD'ing towards your Golem...let's think about that for a bit...
u wot m8? People should think? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
562
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:28:00 -
[220] - Quote
YaSiS wrote:Seems like CCP forgot the PVE side of the Marauders. Huh? they gonna me awesome for DED sites. Or maybe WH sites. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
|

WInter Borne
Cold Station 12 Surely You're Joking
85
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:29:00 -
[221] - Quote
I approve of this product and/or service. |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:29:00 -
[222] - Quote
Many people do have a good point with the tractor beam as well as the drones. Moving these ships to pvp is nice and all but at the expense of slashing its ability to do pve is not really that fair.
As for tractor beams... yeah. Get with the times ccp. Its called a Noctis.. durr :P |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:29:00 -
[223] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking. also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
Giving it the firepower of 10 with the +100% bonus? The extra high is for the "Siege Module" I would assume but then you never know... Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:29:00 -
[224] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking. also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
Because they already have an effective 8 guns with the 100% damage role bonus. They don't need an effective 10 guns. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Nalren
Aperture Harmonics K162
26
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:30:00 -
[225] - Quote
My first impressions, with only 10-15 minutes of chatting with my spacebros... and I admit that most of my thinking is "how can I use this in small gang warfare" since I am a WH guy.
I can only see a couple situations where this mini-siege thingy could see use:
1. Missions/sites. They'll tank better than anything else and still put out very good dps. 2. Sniper fleets with recon support, but they are expensive and invite hot dropping, and all you're using from this module is the range bonus; sniper ships don't really expect to have to tank much. You also need a lot of recons to prevent even a medium sized fleet from getting on top of it. Actually I have talked myself out of this option. It's a mission ship. I'll snipe in Tornados, thanks. They hit just as hard but cost 1/10 as much.
These ships might work in groups, but how many fleets have the numbers to take that fight? My gut feeling is that marauders will have two kinds of engagements: they will either die horribly or not get fights most of the time.
Without a damage bonus, I doubt many people will be willing to volunteer to be shiny sitting ducks*. Add a decent damage bonus, though, and folks might be willing to risk the isk. However, this won't make them more likely to get fights in solo/small gang work. As a second wave - you know, bring the pain after you establish control of the field - they would be pretty nasty I suppose. Pretty limited utility if that's all they are though.
===============================
*Note: if you pronounce "shiny sitting ducks" a few times in a row, you may accidentally say a naughty word. You have been warned. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:32:00 -
[226] - Quote
Azriel X wrote:Moving these ships to pvp is nice and all but at the expense of slashing its ability to do pve is not really that fair.
You know, it's amusing that people keep saying things like this, since most high-end missioners, plexers, and ratters use equally high-end PvP ships with no PvE bonuses whatsoever. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:34:00 -
[227] - Quote
well now i am kinda regretting training marauders to 5, loosing the web bonus is a HUGE hit, my paladin already tanks like a beast, that was not an issue i think they should get full t2 resists, but if they get to be a "mini dread" i guess it makes sense but loosing webs, more then makes up for that parlor trick. in PvE i would be helpless against anything that gets close. and anyone that points to the "immune to ecm" while in "mini dread" has never seen a BS try to align out it would do nothing for me. i come out of "mini dread mode" and instantly get tackled. i like the reduction to micro jump drive cycle time. which i feel is way more important then having the tractor beam crap on it. if i am meant to keep at 100K+ from the mission rats having tractor beams that reach to 40ish k seems a bit silly. the thing that keeps them on the side line for PvP now is their stupidly low sensor strength. no point bringing in a bs that can easily be perma jammed by 1 flight of light ecm drones.
|

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
276
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:34:00 -
[228] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
it's pretty dumb... caps can't jump when pointed or bubbled, yet a watered down version of them can...
Warp scramblers. Points don't shut down MWDs, so why should they shut down MJDs? Scrams shut down MWDs, scrams shut down MJDs. It makes far more sense to leave it as it is, and anyway, they would be useless if a single point stopped a MJD, they'd never get used. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:35:00 -
[229] - Quote
i'll be real honest here, i've been a PvEer for quite some time, as well as very attentive to the fitting decisions people make, and most importantly why. i pay really close attention to why x module should or shouldnt be fit, etc etc. i'd not go as far to say that i know what i'm doing, but i'd reckon i have an educated guess at this point.
with that background in mind, i have to say that i find these changes intriguing, yet not imbalanced. i am hesitant to put a maybe 1.1-1.5b fit ship with a mediocre turn time into lockdown for 60 seconds, but by the same token i'd reckon i'd do it because the benefits outweigh the risks both NPC and player (if you miscalculate the tank, the rats will eat you. if you dont check intel, well, you'll level up..)
i think that the balance in the pilot's mind of "risk versus reward" here was very carefully calculated, and is right on the razor's edge, which is as it should be in EVE.
this will provide shiny killmails for lucky roaming folks (and expensive lossmails for unwary bears), and at the same time provide a slightly nerve-wracking/thrilling way to make a boatload of money in the red cross shooting gallery. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:36:00 -
[230] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:will you fix mjd's so that people cant jump when pointed anymore?
it's pretty dumb... caps can't jump when pointed or bubbled, yet a watered down version of them can...
Warp scramblers.
Shhh. That's a secret.
Bubbles and bonused long points are supposed to be God. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
|

Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
192
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:39:00 -
[231] - Quote
I won't be using a mini-dread in PvP, but I suspect they will be far better at PVE than they ever were before.
|

SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
670
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:39:00 -
[232] - Quote
I am pleased by some of those changes, and not really impressed by other changes (or lack there-off), let me explain why.
You are adding a new module. That is awesome ! And better yet, you're not making it so that the ships you're changing absolutly need it to be effective.
You're allowing Marauders to have a wider range of fittings. That is awesome !
You're removing the web strengh bonuses. That is...not so awesome but I can understand why you did it.
You're not changing the sensor strenght and think that the new module will be the solution. That is not awesome. Please change the sensor strenght to appropriate levels. Ie, regular battleship level. Not super high SS, not super low SS. Regular SS.
You're reducing speed. Alright, I don't know why it would be a massive problem. They were already slow.
You're adding a highslot. Great ! Full PVE Marauders won't care, but regular PVP, non-bastion-using Marauders will have +1 highslot to play with. Smartbomb ? Heavy neut ? Medium neut ? Your choice :)
You're not adding a DPS bonus. Well, I'm not sure about that. See, Marauders will obviously have more tank than the other kinds of battleships right, like the Hyperions/Maelstroms. That means they'll probably engage larger gangs (the kind of tank values they are going to have require +3 opponents). But what comes with larger gangs ? Logistics. You can't EW by yourselve, so you have to break through reps.
A DPS bonus would help with that. But then again it might bring in other problems. Considering the "No RR/EW", I think that it would be balanced to have something like +30% or +50% DPS. I mean, wouldn't make them unbalanced considering the "I'm sitting there for 60 seconds and I can't move".
That's my first feedback, You'll have to wait until we get new EFT files for more feedback ;) |

Lipbite
Express Hauler
766
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:40:00 -
[233] - Quote
Giant battleships hopping like bunnies? It's very strange concept actually. And whole "end-game" class of ships forced into this concept is even more strange.
WTB x2 damage boost in bastion mode (via script). |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
276
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:40:00 -
[234] - Quote
Cheng Chai wrote:The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....
That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi)
Thank you for breaking my keyboard with the epic face-desk I just did.
ASBs are not being touched by the active tank buff in 1.1. Please read before you post. Not to mention good luck finishing C6 sites before you run out of cap charges  How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:40:00 -
[235] - Quote
Dibs on the Macross Cannon!
I've actually been watching Macross 7 over the past couple weeks with my bf XD perfect timing, CCP.
A comment about the marauder tractoring, though. Why not increase the range a bit to make a little overlap after MJD jumps? Say, enough to get T1s to 50k, and T2s to 60k? A 150% bonus would do that perfectly. I'd love to see a bonus to salvagers, too, like a cycle time reduction. It would make sense, pairing it with the tractor bonus, but it could also result in overlap with the noctis. Making the noctis lose its spot as king of space hoovers would not be good. I'm just picturing a hoover golem...
Okay, I want a salvage bonus, let me have a hoover golem! Super pimped space hoover! |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:41:00 -
[236] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Azriel X wrote:Moving these ships to pvp is nice and all but at the expense of slashing its ability to do pve is not really that fair.
You know, it's amusing that people keep saying things like this, since most high-end missioners, plexers, and ratters use equally high-end PvP ships with no PvE bonuses whatsoever.
Not having a bonus from the get-go is fine it becomes your choice to use said ship. However, what happens to those pilots that already use a marauder and now have to bail on it because there are no drones to deal with the tiny ships you just cant hit?
I personally don't use anything above a t3. No need. But I do see other peoples point in this argument. |

Shiganaru
Ignis Aeternus Imperium
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:43:00 -
[237] - Quote
My 2 cents:
1) Name Suggestion: "Micro Siege Module"
It has the nearly the same functionality as the regular Siege module, and this will fits the naming scheme of some other modules.
2) Use the "Tactical Reconfiguration Skill"
Slide the Strontium bonus off the skill itself onto the dreadnaughts. Similar to the way the "Cov Ops" skill affects Stealth Bombers. No need to train another skill, when one skill should already cover it.
2a) Add Skill "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration"
Basically Dreadnaughts use the advanced reconfiguration skill, while marauders use the normal. Require "Tactical Reconfiguration IV" to train "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration".
The non-advanced skill could also give dreads weapon bonuses, so dreads could fit a bit more tank instead of a bunch of weapons mods. (just a thought)
3) Minimum Drone Bay: 50m3
I don't know how changes to tracking may affect it, but I've been in a PvE situation before where T2 Large guns couldn't hit a target, and light drones took forever to kill them. |

BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
298
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:44:00 -
[238] - Quote
Mobile weapons platforms. Ahh BoBo hits another one out of the park ahead of its time. Great idea for this class of ship guys! Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |

Nimrodion
Globaltech Industries Yulai Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:45:00 -
[239] - Quote
On a side not, how will (if at all) Bastion mode affect target locking, in a way that Triage/Siege affects Carriers/Dreads? Will we have to re-lock targets upon entering/exiting the cycle, the number of targets that can be locked or drone usage? |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
293
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:47:00 -
[240] - Quote
So how do you actually kill anything with these in PVP? as they become immobile anything half decent speed can pull range and warp - especially as the kronos and paladin have lost the 90% web bonus, if you've got support to tackle stuff it massively reduces the usefulness of the MJD aside from a GTFO option (tho you'd probably be tackled by that point). |
|

SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
670
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:47:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
Counter-point : You're bringing in a new Rank 8 skill. It takes a while to train those. And that skill has the same requirement as the Tactical Weapon Reconfig. Which is also a long skill to train.
Both skills allow the use of one specific module, on one specific kind of ship.
Why not merge them ? Just make it so that Bastion mods use 0 Strontium per cycle, that'll probably fix your issue, I guess ? |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:48:00 -
[242] - Quote
Nimrodion wrote:On a side not, how will (if at all) Bastion mode affect target locking, in a way that Triage/Siege affects Carriers/Dreads? Will we have to re-lock targets upon entering/exiting the cycle, the number of targets that can be locked or drone usage?
How about make it so that the drone bay is still there but the bandwidth without the module is 0, and when entering it, it gives the ship a +X amount to the bandwidth so that drones can be used but only in bastion mode...
ahh? thoughts? |

Fire Forager
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:48:00 -
[243] - Quote
Falloff absolutely sux, why the hell would you want that instead of the web bonus on the kronos  |

William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:50:00 -
[244] - Quote
Now that I look at it again, the drone bay thing is really hideous. The Vindicator has 11 effective turrets and 125mbit drone bandwidth. Please give these at least 100mbit/175m3. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
333
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:51:00 -
[245] - Quote
I want to like these ships but I'm not really all that impressed. With all the training these ships require (MJD's, bastion mod, marauder skill) you can pretty much get into a solid dread that will outperform it outside of high sec. If the goal was to make the ship less PvE oriented I think you failed, as I have a hard time imaging the niche for a high tanking immobile battleship that can't receive remote reps.
The idea is neat and all, but I think this is just going to be a second rate level 4 PvE ship behind pirate battleships. |

Javon Bars
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:52:00 -
[246] - Quote
Why would anyone possibly enter bastion for gang pvp?
The tanking bonus prevents you from receiving reps, effectively nerfing your tank. You don't get a damage bonus and the optimal range bonus is pointless because currently large long-range weapon systems already provide all the range you'll ever need. EW immunity is pointless because you're going to be out of EW range. There is no reason at all to enter bastion as it is.
Unless it gives a significant damage bonus, you're just painting yourself a large bullseye and waiting to die, particularly because both scanning and even a dictor burning will cover the distance in less than the 60 seconds bastion takes.
Also: please, please stop bringing out new skills who only apply to one single module and nothing else. It makes a mockery out of the versatility the skill system in the game has. Tactical weapon reconfiguration already covers this scenario. |

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
192
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:52:00 -
[247] - Quote
Nope, horrible idea. Go back to the drawing board. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:53:00 -
[248] - Quote
Azriel X wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Azriel X wrote:Moving these ships to pvp is nice and all but at the expense of slashing its ability to do pve is not really that fair.
You know, it's amusing that people keep saying things like this, since most high-end missioners, plexers, and ratters use equally high-end PvP ships with no PvE bonuses whatsoever. Not having a bonus from the get-go is fine it becomes your choice to use said ship. However, what happens to those pilots that already use a marauder and now have to bail on it because there are no drones to deal with the tiny ships you just cant hit? I personally don't use anything above a t3. No need. But I do see other peoples point in this argument.
Why can't they hit them? Do their gunnery skills suck? People already MJD around in missions without a bonus to it at all. And whether they are using turrets, missiles, sentries, or both, they manage to blap frigates. And these ships still have adequate drone bay to deal with scramming frigs in missions.
Why would they bail on the marauder? Why don't they simply learn to use it within its new strengths? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Abyss Azizora
The Nation of VeldSparta
54
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:54:00 -
[249] - Quote
Well from what I can see, it'll be fairly useless in fleet fights, and even in the larger gang fights. For PVE it'll also be semi-useless when frigs get in range due to the lack of tracking bonus on ones like the paladin, and the lack of web bonuses.
Also why the hell do they STILL have tractor beam bonuses? Get rid of them already, noone that has a clue how to play eve uses marauders for loot/salvage, we all use a noctis now, like your supposed to.
I was really looking forward to the changes, and while new models and a mini-siege mode sound awesome. The rest of the changes (and lack of changes) are going to make these garbage in the currently proposed concept. And at everything. |

Talcuris
Dragon Clan Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:55:00 -
[250] - Quote
BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Adds non stacking penalized 30% hull resist ... please add increases hull repair amount bonus for the hero hull tankers! |
|

Wizzard117
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:56:00 -
[251] - Quote
Another 2 cents
I'd rebalance Bastion module and make it depend on Bastion Trasnformerthingie skill even more like +4% armor, shield and hull resistance per level (since 4% resistance bonus/lvl is a current standard bonus) +2.5% to turret optimal and faloff per lvl (somewhat balancing with different turret types) +5% to turrent tracking per lvl (to keep up with optimal/faloff bonuses) +5% to missile flight time (since velocity bonus is already a Golem's bonus) +2.5% to missile explosion radius (which on lvl5 will almost equal T1 rigor rig, is the only one missile damage application bonus left thus making it on par with CNR) +5% cycle reduction on Bastion module activation per lvl EDIT: +15% to effectiveness of shield and armor repairers per lvl
and mb even up to
+20% chance of neutralizing enemy ewar attempt (so training this skill to lvl5 makes it ewar immune) |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
122
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:57:00 -
[252] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:Also why the hell do they STILL have tractor beam bonuses? Get rid of them already, noone that has a clue how to play eve uses marauders for loot/salvage, we all use a noctis now, like your supposed to. Not everyone has the luxury of carrying a noctis around *cough* nullsec *cough* |

Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 21:58:00 -
[253] - Quote
And a comment about the ship bonuses themselves.
Caldari: Tank, Range, Damage application x2 Minmatar: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Gallente: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Amarr: Tank, Range, Damage, Cargo?
Um... what? Cargo capacity for the amarr? Why? |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
122
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:00:00 -
[254] - Quote
Cerulean Ice wrote:And a comment about the ship bonuses themselves.
Caldari: Tank, Range, Damage application x2 Minmatar: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Gallente: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Amarr: Tank, Range, Damage, Cargo?
Um... what? Cargo capacity for the amarr? Why? um...where do you see cargo in the bonuses? or did you mean capacitor |

Robert Harrison
Aperture Harmonics K162
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:01:00 -
[255] - Quote
Shiganaru wrote: 2a) Add Skill "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration"[/b]
Basically Dreadnaughts use the advanced reconfiguration skill, while marauders use the normal. Require "Tactical Reconfiguration IV" to train "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration".
The non-advanced skill could also give dreads weapon bonuses, so dreads could fit a bit more tank instead of a bunch of weapons mods. (just a thought) .
No... Just no... |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:03:00 -
[256] - Quote
Talcuris wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
- Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Adds non stacking penalized 30% hull resist ... please add increases hull repair amount bonus for the hero hull tankers!
90% hull resist with a DCII isn't too bad.
Actually, a total 42.5% and 45% non-stacking-penalized shield and hull resist with a DCII aren't bad, either. Cuts down on the number of tank mods in your lows/mids if you intend to try and seige this thing up a lot. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Zoltan Lazar
146
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:04:00 -
[257] - Quote
This is a huge buff to suicide ganking. Not having to worry about tracking or tackle? Yes please. |

Javon Bars
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:06:00 -
[258] - Quote
An idea: why not make bastion a bigtime alpha module? Something along the lines of 100% damage bonus and 50% rof penalty. At least you'd be giving some incentive to use it, ie: to alpha ships who would otherwise hold reps. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2586
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:06:00 -
[259] - Quote
This is a really interesting move. I have a few things to point out:
The 90% web bonus is extremely useful, and I'm saddened to see that bonus removed. It is currently one of the major reasons to field a marauder, as it allows full damage application to just about any ship within web range. If it remained, it would make it extremely hard to "hold down" the Kronos or Paladin, as they can align, MJD, and escape to safety unless they are scrammed, and even a single web means anything within scram range will receive full damage from the marauder. EWAR immunity means you can't track them to save your ass either!. Still, I'm sad to see the bonus go, but I can understand why. That will leave the Vindi, vigilant, Ashimmu, cruor, & daredevil as the only 90% webbing ships.
A note on the MJD reactivation delay. This makes traveling through nullsec or lowsec in a marauder very safe. Everyone is familiar with the MWD-Cloak trick... well now we have the MJD cloak trick. Align, Cloak, activate MJD. You don't need to decloak (because the MJD auto-decloaks you at the end of its cycle). You don't need to worry about bubbles, as the MJD will shoot you out of a bubble. The only way you lose your ship, is if you get decloaked and scrammed within the 9-10s it takes your MJD to cycle. The 60s delay between reactivations means you can travel system to system and repeat at will, because it will take longer than 60s to travel through most systems (or you can hold cloak in the next system until the delay is up!).
The 8th High slot: This is very nice. The utility highs always make me drool when considering the Marauders for PvP, and extra fitting to utilize them helps immensely.
The Bastion... That just makes me smile! You suggested the bonus was mistyped, and it will be +25% Opt, +25% Falloff, and + 5s max missile velocity. This makes much more sense than the bonuses originally posted. As for the module/mechanic, it is pretty niche. Your Marauder will go from repping 500-800 dps, to x2.85 more (1400-2300 dps). I see this wonderful if destroying undefended highsec POS's. It is also hugely beneficial if shooting ships in a mission (where you can tweak your resistances to double that tank, or more likely, focus on dps). However, even a small gang can overpower that tank, and any partially defended POS can too. Cap will still be your main weakness, and neuting a BS dry is much easier than a dread or carrier. It essentially will rely on cap booster for life.
This is where I see the new Marauder used, tbh: Highsec Mission running. Better damage projection, better tank, ewar immunity. MJD 100km's, siege, and blap ships coming in!
Lowsec & Nullsec Plexing: Same reason its good for Highsec Missions, plus it has risk-free travel (MJD-Cloak trick).
Niche Solo vs gang PvP.
I don't know where it will be used otherwise, but maybe I'm missing something. |

Kimsemus
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:07:00 -
[260] - Quote
I was getting tried of fleet doctrines calling for sentry drones.
NOW I CAN TURN INTO A SENTRY DRONE MYSELF! :D
Seriously though I don't see these getting used in nullsec, not having remote reps is just...lol
|
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
259
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:08:00 -
[261] - Quote
I had a long think about how I might use this ship. I cannot think of a scenario in which it would be useful.
Neither can I construct a rational narrative to support bastion mode, so there's a problem there for me.
I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine.
I am deeply disappointed by this proposal and cannot in good conscience support it.
My apologies.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Teroh Vizjereij
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:15:00 -
[262] - Quote
Quote:You will be adding replacement pants to the NEX store now, right?
I second this .. appart from you def. needing to rebalance most of the pve sites .. marauders will just own them with those specs .. but they will be able to solo L5's .. which i highly appreciate.
But the applications in PvP .. my pants just went afk  |

TehCloud
Carnivore Company WINMATAR.
114
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:20:00 -
[263] - Quote
God, I love you all so much right now. Just need to find someone to give me a Marauder & Skillbook for free, because I am niggard as heck! My Condor costs less than that module! |

LakeEnd
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
48
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:21:00 -
[264] - Quote
First of all, great job trying to make marauders viable for PVP.
The flaw in this plan IMO is that 25% optimal bonus (the only offensive bonus that matters) is not enough reward for me to enter siege-like mode for 60secs where I cant receive remote rep. Large guns already have pretty good range, so to get 25% more on top of that and forgo all logi rep seems like unfair trade off.
All the other bonuses you get from bastion are cool and all, but for me to go into bastion-mode, I need better offensive perks: for example damage bonus and tracking bonus. All the defense bonuses are nice, but if I have like couple t1 logistics in my gang, I am better of not entering bastion-mode.
I would like to see a role (ie. bonuses) for this bastion that also work outside very small size engagements. |

Khaim Khal
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:22:00 -
[265] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Counter-point : You're bringing in a new Rank 8 skill. It takes a while to train those. And that skill has the same requirement as the Tactical Weapon Reconfig. Which is also a long skill to train. Both skills allow the use of one specific module, on one specific kind of ship. Why not merge them ? Just make it so that Bastion mods use 0 Strontium per cycle, that'll probably fix your issue, I guess ?
Or just remove the Strontium bonus rom the Tactical Reconfiguration skill, and make it a bonus on the siege module.
So you have:
Tactical Reconfiguration: Allows use of siege/bastion modules. Higher ranks improve use of those modules.
Siege Module: 25-unit reduction in strontium use per level of Tactical Reconfiguration.
Bastion Module: 5% reduction in cycle time per level of Tactical Reconfiguration.
Note that this is actually how CCP Ytterbium worded the cycle bonus in the first post. He probably didn't mean anything by it, but it works a lot better this way. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:24:00 -
[266] - Quote
I was musing to myself the other day that the ship rebalancing might end up removing those kind of odd Web Velocity bonuses and it looks like this confirms that theory. Overall probably a good change though I'm going to be sad about no more frig-blapping in Incursions and Missions.
Any chance we could get a Web Range bonus instead though? The Paladin's Optimal bonus is pretty good for it but I've never really liked the falloff bonuses on Gallente ships.
Hybrids have this weird problem in Missions where the rats are either too close or too far away. If you fit Rails you can hit the things far away really well but can't apply damage to anything within about 20km depending on size. If you fit blasters you can kill anything within 10-20km but anything past that you're tickling. Webs combine with a tracking bonus help a lot with this since you can fit Railguns and just web everything that gets close for better damage application. That's certainly not going away with the velocity factor bonus but it hurts. The ability to web things further out, at least on the Kronos, would be fantastic... :|
I really wish I could say more definitively but that Bastion module is really hard to gauge without some hands-on time with it. It seems really powerful for missions and maybe even Incursions but also frustrating in certain cases as well. |

Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:30:00 -
[267] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Cerulean Ice wrote:And a comment about the ship bonuses themselves.
Caldari: Tank, Range, Damage application x2 Minmatar: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Gallente: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Amarr: Tank, Range, Damage, Cargo?
Um... what? Cargo capacity for the amarr? Why? um...where do you see cargo in the bonuses? or did you mean capacitor Aha! Sure enough, lysdexia strikes again. |

Mainiac IV
Digital Undead Inc. Strictly Unprofessional
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:31:00 -
[268] - Quote
Honestly I think this whole idea is bad |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:34:00 -
[269] - Quote
Like the idea in principle. Not sure on implementation. I think they need a damage bonus in the Bastion mode. Not sure there is enough of an incentive to use it at the moment in a pvp situation. Whilst the extra tank is nice, I'm not sure it will actually be useful in most situations. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out in combination with the MJD bonus.
Will hitting Bastion mode instantly stop you, or will you drift like dreads in Siege? Also, with the mass changes - could bring in some interesting moves in wormhole space potentially unless you couldn't jump whilst in Bastion mode. Jump through WH, Bastion at no cost - jump back out probably closing the wh...
Can the Paladin actually have a decent bonus over the cap one? The others don't have a bonus called "*% bonus to cargo bay so you can actually store enough ammo to use your guns for more than 2 minutes"
On the whole though, could make for some interesting gameplay in smallish gang scenarios. Can see them being especially interesting in wormhole scale fights. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2422

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:35:00 -
[270] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:GÇóExtends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
why just falloff and not optimal range? does this not give a big boost to arty/blaster setups and not much for rails and lazors?
Nice quote, except the OP mentions turret falloff and optimal  |
|
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l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
562
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:35:00 -
[271] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I had a long think about how I might use this ship. I cannot think of a scenario in which it would be useful.
Not a Single? Where is your imagination?
Example to kill a gatecamp. Or DED plexing in 0.0. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |

Silver Getsuga
Real Enemy Academy SOLAR WING
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:38:00 -
[272] - Quote
I wonder if these changes will kill autocannons Vargur.... not so good projection even multiplied by 25% and mjd focus looks weak compared to other weapon systems. Autocannons can't project to 100km even with these changes. Oh and 4 huge alpha arty cannons will probably suck for pve. (too much overshoot with low RoF). One can ignore mjd thingy though and pray tracking will be enough to kill orbiting stuff. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:38:00 -
[273] - Quote
Mainiac IV wrote:Honestly I think this whole idea is bad
Then explain why or don't post. This is not useful feedback.
Silver Getsuga wrote:I wonder if these changes will kill autocannons Vargur.... not so good projection even multiplied by 25% and mjd focus looks weak compared to other weapon systems. Autocannons can't project to 100km even with these changes. Oh and 4 huge alpha arty cannons will probably suck for pve. (too much overshoot with low RoF).
Then jump into the middle of the enemy ships rather than jumping away. No more having to fit Arty for Mordu's Headhunters! :D
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I had a long think about how I might use this ship. I cannot think of a scenario in which it would be useful.
Neither can I construct a rational narrative to support bastion mode, so there's a problem there for me.
I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine.
I am deeply disappointed by this proposal and cannot in good conscience support it.
My apologies.
So, one for PvE I can think of several potential uses. The MJD was already starting to see some mission use, this just further cements that. I'm not sure how these are going to fit into incursions but I think it's worth looking into at least before we condemn them there, and extra high slots are always helpful there anyway even without siege or MJDs.
I sort of think that the point of the sideways buff is that the don't want to see them too much in PvP, at least they don't want to see entire fleets of them smacking into each other.
The original worry for these ships was that they were going to become kings of the BS gang by being able to fit absurd amounts of remote rep chaining and I guess CCP feels this is still very much a valid concern, hence the low sensor strength. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1248
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:44:00 -
[274] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:MeBiatch wrote:GÇóExtends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
why just falloff and not optimal range? does this not give a big boost to arty/blaster setups and not much for rails and lazors? Nice quote, except the OP mentions turret falloff and optimal  Edit: just realized I actually typed falloff and tracking, and that CCP Logibro fixed it. Logibro best bro, thanks bro. Sorry about that.
oh cool you updated the op
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Sven Viko VIkolander
Stay Frosty.
86
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:44:00 -
[275] - Quote
I'd really love to see some numbers of what the local rep / EHP of Marauders in Bastion mode might look like, and compared with relevant alternatives (e.g., how many logistics it would take to make it more attractive to stay out of Bastion mode). Anyone? Numbers? Anyone? |

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
828
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:47:00 -
[276] - Quote
Mournful, you are being a huge whiner. And you have no imagination. I can think of all kinds of uses for these ships.
Take a break, man. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:47:00 -
[277] - Quote
Silver Getsuga wrote:Oh and 4 huge alpha arty cannons will probably suck for pve. (too much overshoot with low RoF). It only it was possible to ungroup your guns for volley damage that wasn't massively overkill for small ships...
*wants an eft build to include these changes* Going to be insane alongside the changes to local rep! |

Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1764
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:49:00 -
[278] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Tell me, how does one use the Bastion module in Incursions, when remote repping no longer works when in Bastion mode?
How do you not get that these things will have a MASSIVE tank that allows them to easily tank a ton of damage until they drop out of siege.
These changes are fairly amazing, I actually really like this
|

Ripply Kat
Temporal Paradox
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:49:00 -
[279] - Quote
The one thing I don't like about this regardless of balance is the 0ms penalty of going in bastion. I think a mod were you get a speed reduction similar to the cloak with a warp penalty would be much better. Even with all the resists I just imagine these will get blapped if used in low, null, and even WH by real dreads. I like the bastions possible application in pve, but going 0ms in pvp with a subcap seems bad. |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:49:00 -
[280] - Quote
I don't see why the bastion should eliminate remote reps to it. Obviously it would be far too overpowered with them... but also I can see why many people say it will be a total flop without them...And because the bastion module is intended as a micro version of the siege mode dreads use... why not allow the remote reps to still be applied to it, however adding a reduction to the repping amount of said bastioned battleship. Would this not be the best way to hit the sweet spot for this issue? |
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
262
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:51:00 -
[281] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:So, one for PvE I can think of several potential uses. The MJD was already starting to see some mission use, this just further cements that. I'm not sure how these are going to fit into incursions but I think it's worth looking into at least before we condemn them there, and extra high slots are always helpful there anyway even without siege or MJDs.
I sort of think that the point of the sideways buff is that the don't want to see them too much in PvP, at least they don't want to see entire fleets of them smacking into each other.
The original worry for these ships was that they were going to become kings of the BS gang by being able to fit absurd amounts of remote rep chaining and I guess CCP feels this is still very much a valid concern, hence the low sensor strength.
Well, it would be wrong to say that marauders weren't already good at pve - particularly because they can salvage as they go (or could until this proposal).
The biggest problem for me is the bastion mode. Not because it's a highly niche ability, but because if I saw it in a science fiction film or book I would stop reading or watching right there and then and condemn the author as an idiot.
It's not even defensible with psuedo-science, let alone physics.
I am certain there has to be a better way to make marauders better at pvp than this mumbo jumbo.
As for these ships appearing in fleets, the determining factor will be payoff vs cost. You pay for (some) pirate ships because they are worth it (bhaalgorn and vindicator and nothing else). This ship still dies to a logi-supported vindi or bhaalgorn, so why would you bring it?
Please stop this madness and go back to the drawing board. A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
780
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:52:00 -
[282] - Quote
Errrm, what's the point?
Sure you spun a good yarn with the MJD an all that but if you are planning on engaging 100km away you already have Beams, Cruise, Artillery or Rails fitted and all of those will do 100km easy so the optimal/fall-off is redundant (doubly so when you replace web bonus with range!) .. apart from the tank (which will always be better when outsourced) you lose nothing by choosing to stay mobile = won't be used for PvP in any significantly higher numbers as cheaper and just as effective alternatives exist.
Now if you instead of the range bonuses were to give them tracking/missile equivalents instead you'd have ships that not only benefited when at 100km+ but could just as easily do SR weapons and hunker down in the middle of a furball and tear some arms off. Double whammy in PvE as tracking is infinitely better after MJD introduction covered any and all repositioning woes.
And you could script it to allow damage bonus (RoF for artillery) to force a choice twixt dps and applied-dps.
Still probably wouldn't be enough to convince people to blow 1B a pop when they can get away with one fifth of that but would be better than range in any case.
Tanking bonus needs to be significantly higher as +100% is nowhere near enough in todays excessive dps environment (read: Fleets larger than the entire server population of 8-9 years ago) .. give it the full siege module bonus by including a 50% cycle reduction on top of the +100%.
PS: Bastion? Really? That the best you could come up with?  PPS: Better to equate it to Triage modules as the biggie with regards to siege is the damage bump, whereas Triage is all tank (local + projected). |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
190
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:53:00 -
[283] - Quote
Just noticed that these Marauders are THE way to rush c4 anoms solo. Tanks it solo, has three large smartbombs and a hold to run multiple anoms before refilling. Works very well with the MJD and stuff. "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Astaron Ahashion
BraveVesperia
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:53:00 -
[284] - Quote
Some ultra quick napkin math that i'm sure people will jump on me for if it's a little wrong but with the Paladin in bastion mode with 2 faction TC with optimal ranged you're getting 32+19km conflag, 96+19km Scorch, 36+47km gleam and more than 250km optimal with aurora. That's a pretty significant increase in projection range. I like it. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1248
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:54:00 -
[285] - Quote
So any chance we will see a tech ii mjd with longer jump range? Maybe 150 km? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:54:00 -
[286] - Quote
in response to the remote rep complaints : why not reduce incoming repairs and such by 50%? would decrease a bastion's spider ability whilst still allowing for that option. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:54:00 -
[287] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote: It only it was possible to ungroup your guns for volley damage that wasn't massively overkill for small ships...
What a horrible concept. I can't believe that CCP would ever allow anyone to fire their guns individually or in smaller groups. Overkill FTW! Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:55:00 -
[288] - Quote
CCP:
I am not sure if this is intended our not:
But with these Bastion buffs, I think I would use this /a lot/ in epic arcs.
What would happen is:
1. Dual tank the Maurader, with Shield and Armor tanks. (with the massive bonuses to each, this is incredible). 2. Warp in, micro jump drive away from the warp in spot, launch drones, go into bastion modes, eat frigates. 3. Get Aggro. 4. Signal my fleet to warp in.
I think this will make dual tanking viable.
And I like it. :)
I /really/ like the idea of a non-DPS Bastion option.
THIS WOULD BE AWESOME if Mauraders had a bonus to fleet boosting!!! By sacrificing the DPS Mods, they could instead equip fleet assistance modules.
Basically, this would be kind of like bringing an Orca in for command and tank, but not with the Orca. :)
Please consider! |

Kristoffon vonDrake
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
72
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:55:00 -
[289] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: Don't forget that they can't point you while you're in bastion
Why the hell not?
Immunity to ewar doesn't mean you can't activate ewar mods on them. |

Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1765
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:55:00 -
[290] - Quote
Azriel X wrote:I don't see why the bastion should eliminate remote reps to it. Obviously it would be far too overpowered with them... but also I can see why many people say it will be a total flop without them...And because the bastion module is intended as a micro version of the siege mode dreads use... why not allow the remote reps to still be applied to it, however adding a reduction to the repping amount of said bastioned battleship. Would this not be the best way to hit the sweet spot for this issue?
No, you can easily get some really seriously silly tanks on these things as listed now, allowing RR will make them virtually unkillable unless you alpha them, and the game has enough crap in it now that promotes alpha
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2424

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:57:00 -
[291] - Quote
YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1
I'm not sure I follow this - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.
When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.
However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus. |
|

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:57:00 -
[292] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: How do you not get that these things will have a MASSIVE tank that allows them to easily tank a ton of damage until they drop out of siege.
These changes are fairly amazing, I actually really like this
Because they utterly fail to understand what the unpenalized resists of a DCII paired with the unpenalized resists of this thing's siege mode will mean, couple with opening up low and mid slots for more damage/tracking/etc. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:59:00 -
[293] - Quote
Can I make the crazy stupid suggestion here that marauders get 8 slots in their primary tank allocation instead of an 8th high? Also why still tractor/salvage bonuses?
Wouldn't a golem be better with role bonus: 25% reduced explosion radius, paladin: 25% faster cap recharge (ergo total cap can be dropped again to increase vulnerability to neuts), kronos: 25% web bonus (only half as strong now, doesn't compete with pirate ships), vargur: 25% bonus velocity to AB/MWD modules & 25% increased mass penalty for those same modules
Seriously please please please get rid of the stupid tractor beam bonus. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Demotress
Segmentum Solar Nulli Secunda
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:00:00 -
[294] - Quote
why not call the skill Tactical Bastion Reconfiguration to reflect the skill you use to siege in a dread? |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
334
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:02:00 -
[295] - Quote
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:I'd really love to see some numbers of what the local rep / EHP of Marauders in Bastion mode might look like, and compared with relevant alternatives (e.g., how many logistics it would take to make it more attractive to stay out of Bastion mode). Anyone? Numbers? Anyone?
I would guesstimate: 2 logi for single XL-shield booster 3 logi for single XLASB 5.5-6 logi for double XLASB setups |

Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:02:00 -
[296] - Quote
also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)? |

Silver Getsuga
Real Enemy Academy SOLAR WING
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:04:00 -
[297] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Silver Getsuga wrote:Oh and 4 huge alpha arty cannons will probably suck for pve. (too much overshoot with low RoF). It only it was possible to ungroup your guns for volley damage that wasn't massively overkill for small ships... *wants an eft build to include these changes* Going to be insane alongside the changes to local rep! 4 ungrouped autocannons overshoot less than 4 ungrouped arty cannons. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:04:00 -
[298] - Quote
Retmas wrote:also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)?
Curious as well. It probably is multiplicative. Even so, it's silly amounts of omni hull resist in that mode. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
334
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:06:00 -
[299] - Quote
I'm just going to get this out of the way, because I know it's going to be asked sometime in the future.
Paladin cap bonus gets rolled into the hull, add tracking bonus. Because just about every other cap bonus has been rolled into the hull for a "real" bonus. |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:06:00 -
[300] - Quote
Azriel X wrote:I don't see why the bastion should eliminate remote reps to it. Obviously it would be far too overpowered with them... but also I can see why many people say it will be a total flop without them...And because the bastion module is intended as a micro version of the siege mode dreads use... why not allow the remote reps to still be applied to it, however adding a reduction to the repping amount of said bastioned battleship. Would this not be the best way to hit the sweet spot for this issue? Have you seen the resist bonus? They'd have to nerf the RR into oblivion to get an ounce of balance. Can't see it ever really being worth it. |
|
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2427

|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:07:00 -
[301] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Retmas wrote:also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)? Curious as well. It probably is multiplicative. Even so, it's silly amounts of omni hull resist in that mode.
Multiplicative, thus 72%. |
|

YaSiS
Alpha Centauri Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:09:00 -
[302] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
Well if you say so oke, i hope you guys know what you are doing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HxwAEpdS2Y&feature=plcp |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2586
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:09:00 -
[303] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Talcuris wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
- Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Adds non stacking penalized 30% hull resist ... please add increases hull repair amount bonus for the hero hull tankers! 90% hull resist with a DCII isn't too bad. Actually, a total 42.5% and 45% non-stacking-penalized shield and hull resist with a DCII aren't bad, either. Cuts down on the number of tank mods in your lows/mids if you intend to try and seige this thing up a lot.
You had me thinking about 350k EHP Kronos fits with a dcu and bulkhead until I remembered that resists don't simply add like you suggested.
Hull resists = 60% from DCU2 + 40 (remaining resists) * 30% (from Bastion) * .87 (if stacking penalized). = 72% resists (70.5% if stacking Penalized), not 90%. |

mine mi
Boinas Rojas Gentlemen's Agreement
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:10:00 -
[304] - Quote
May i suggest change 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams to 50% reduction on target breaker penalty,to avoid concentrated dps, may also add 1 more turret to make them more eligible for pvp. |

Mooer
Xoth Inc
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:11:00 -
[305] - Quote
not only YEAH!!!!! but HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alot of the things we were advocating for (better pg/cpu, mjd mobilitiy) and more.
the bastion mode rawx!
warp into a lev 4 or 5, mjd up away from alot of the bad guys and enter (beast) bastion mode. smack everything down. if things get too close, mjd away and open up again.
lev 4 mission runners dream.
plus, imagine these on a gate camp ready to mode out.
they are normal marauders with bad ass power grids until they deploy, then they enter beast mode.
atleast we have a direction now.. i dig em. especially since they can be used as normal without further training and have major fitting improvements. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1484
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:12:00 -
[306] - Quote
I ran some numbers using a Kronos omni-tanked, using 2 LAR II, RAH, DCU II, ENAM II, and a Explosive Pump II, with the increase from bastion module it was able to tank around 2200 DPS. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
765
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:12:00 -
[307] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
regarding the 90% webs... both in pve and pvp... it's one of the best bonuses in game to be honest... so removing it is a huge nerf.
90% web is exactly enough to lower transversal on frigs for large guns to hit just fine check out my old video as proff http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pgb2CdMDZ5w#t=209 , it shows a vindicator plowing through frigs which are within web range (pve mission in 0.0), also any good pilot will know you can align the targets direction and set your speed to match theirs to effectively remove transversal
Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:13:00 -
[308] - Quote
mine mi wrote:May i suggest change 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams to 50% reduction on target breaker penalty,to avoid concentrated dps, may also add 1 more turret to make them more eligible for pvp.
Adding one more turret effectively adds 2 more turrets... 10 is a bit overboard unless the 100% damage bonus is brought down... |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
262
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:14:00 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.
Perhaps not (respectfully, can you back this with mathematics?), but a 20m/s frigate is a *lot* easier for a drone or blaster to take apart than a 100m/s one.
The combination of bonused web, neuts and high dps could have made the kronos interesting to me in pvp.
The "jump around the battlefield in a contrived manner" kronos just offends me.
I'll be bowing out of this thread now. I like what's happened to command ships and HACs - they have become more pleasing. This proposal just saddens me.
 A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1216
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:16:00 -
[310] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: You had me thinking about 350k EHP Kronos fits with a dcu and bulkhead until I remembered that resists don't simply add like you suggested.
Hull resists = 60% from DCU2 + 40 (remaining resists) * 30% (from Bastion) * .87 (if stacking penalized). = 72% resists (70.5% if stacking Penalized), not 90%.
Correct. My excitement got ahead of my math. It's still crazy amounts of added resist. Especially for PVE carebears that don't normally like to fit DCs to their stuff. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
|

Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
149
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:16:00 -
[311] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Multiplicative, thus 72%.
It does not have stacking penalties with the damage control modules/RAH as well, right?
|

GeeShizzle MacCloud
348
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:16:00 -
[312] - Quote
im not sure what to think of this, i really like the sci-fi awesomeness of the hulls reconfiguring in space, but the actual specifics based on what seems to be the intended PvP purpose of the changes is quite a bit of a miss-fire.
What seems to be lacking is a side effect of the bastion mod to remove the local unlocking feature of the Target Spectrum Breaker, maybe even an increase in the effectiveness in conjunction to it.
local tanking is a joke, if CCP is serious about the adoption of these changes (to bring this into a viable state to be used in anything other than niche edge cases in small scale pvp) then there needs to be some deeper thought into what a BS level ehp ship can bring, especially one that can only local tank.
(pssst.... ill give u a hint, in fleet scale pvp not much at all) |

Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:17:00 -
[313] - Quote
The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.
But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module... |

Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz
95
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:18:00 -
[314] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree. See the other side of the coin: You may actually see these now being used in Fleet Doctrines\PvP more often given this ability rather than shiny L4 Mission Runners and with that a lot more of them dying on the field.
AHAHAHAHAH no.
clearly you haven't heard about how CFC and HBC began CUTTING fleet doctrines that exceeded 170mil base hull cost. It's too expensive to fly these unless you sit in rens with 10 neutral rep guardians standing nearby to save your arse. In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU."It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues |

stoicfaux
3070
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:18:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
Words do not suffice. To express my gratitude, I am willing to carry your man-babies. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:18:00 -
[316] - Quote
Mooer wrote:not only YEAH!!!!! but HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alot of the things we were advocating for (better pg/cpu, mjd mobilitiy) and more.
the bastion mode rawx!
warp into a lev 4 or 5, mjd up away from alot of the bad guys and enter (beast) bastion mode. smack everything down. if things get too close, mjd away and open up again.
lev 4 mission runners dream.
plus, imagine these on a gate camp ready to mode out.
they are normal marauders with bad ass power grids until they deploy, then they enter beast mode.
atleast we have a direction now.. i dig em. especially since they can be used as normal without further training and have major fitting improvements.
can't you like do it already in a domi?
bastion mode doesn't improve much in missionrunning area - you can do all missions in mach or other pirate ships that cost as much and have better dps baked into hull. Who will really turn bastion mode on when you can do missions in existing hulls ;/ This mode is for special scenarios, but there aren't many of them (10/10 can already be mostly soloed, in wh you're risking alot) |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:18:00 -
[317] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first.
The reason we target frigates first in PvP, PvE, etc, and especially epic arcs, is that Frigates are usually applying their ECM first.
It really isn't a matter of "can I hit you up close" as much as it is an ECM issue. Don't get me wrong, with turrets, sure, its an issue, mitigated wtih drones.
But the issue is ECM.
And, the drone bays should be able to have enough for salvage drones, and at least 2 flights of lights, (so you can keep alternative damage type, or opt for tracking over range, etc).
I prefer the same flexibility with mediums too. So, 2 flights of lights, 2 flights of mediums, and 1 flight of salvage ... :) Too much to ask for?
75 for the lights + salvage ... then 100 more for the medium drone options for Amarr and Galente. :) |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:20:00 -
[318] - Quote
Johann Rascali wrote:The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.
But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module...
umm but it does use fuel... and the skill does reduce fuel use. |

Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz
95
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:22:00 -
[319] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
So... who's bright idea was it to make it a "Random module goes here!" ship? And what happened to single purpose specializations like the last batch of ship changes? Now we're suddenly getting a "multi-use" ship which appears to be from a game of "Let's throw darts at the idea wall and see what we hit!" In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU."It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:23:00 -
[320] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:So any chance we will see a tech ii mjd with longer jump range? Maybe 150 km?
I would like frigates to get micro-jump drives so that they can be used in large incursion fights effectively.
Or, at least for a Micro Jump Gate Generator that can be fit to Mauraders that only allows flights of frigates through.
There should be a mechanic to get frigates close to battleships without being vaporized in the process. |
|

Styledatol
Yamato Heavy Industries
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:23:00 -
[321] - Quote
I foresee... - bastion gatecamps - bomber's bar pissing themselves from happiness - lowclass wh pvp changing radically
Now, forgive me while I go change my pants |

Ariel Dawn
F9X
1119
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:24:00 -
[322] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I had a long think about how I might use this ship. I cannot think of a scenario in which it would be useful.
Neither can I construct a rational narrative to support bastion mode, so there's a problem there for me.
I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine.
I am deeply disappointed by this proposal and cannot in good conscience support it.
My apologies.
Small-medium gang ships that are the absolute solution to Falcons/Rooks. Ewar immunity along with massive range and DPS means that any untanked ECM will have difficulty staying on field. |

Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz
95
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:24:00 -
[323] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Mooer wrote:not only YEAH!!!!! but HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alot of the things we were advocating for (better pg/cpu, mjd mobilitiy) and more.
the bastion mode rawx!
warp into a lev 4 or 5, mjd up away from alot of the bad guys and enter (beast) bastion mode. smack everything down. if things get too close, mjd away and open up again.
lev 4 mission runners dream.
plus, imagine these on a gate camp ready to mode out.
they are normal marauders with bad ass power grids until they deploy, then they enter beast mode.
atleast we have a direction now.. i dig em. especially since they can be used as normal without further training and have major fitting improvements. can't you like do it already in a domi? bastion mode doesn't improve much in missionrunning area - you can do all missions in mach or other pirate ships that cost as much and have better dps baked into hull. Who will really turn bastion mode on when you can do missions in existing hulls ;/ This mode is for special scenarios, but there aren't many of them (10/10 can already be mostly soloed, in wh you're risking alot)
I see to recall a statement of no risk, no reward... Now we're being given a "run away" option and not having to worry about being stupid and losing things eh... In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU."It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:25:00 -
[324] - Quote
I love my Pally as it is now. It's a great ship for doing missions. And BTW Ytterbium, with a faction web a regularly kill figs at 5000 m with Large Pulse guns.
But these changes, oh my goddess...
Are amazing!
The PvE possibilities are fantastic. But, and I think this is where CCP are going with this, for the first time I would think of taking a Pally to do lvl5's / low sec anoms.
For me the new Bastion mode is not aimed at PvE use (good though it will be there). It's for when you are ratting / misisoning in lo sec and a small / medium sized gang try's to kill your mission ship!
Love the changes, looking forward to seeing it on Sisi.
:-) |

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
244
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:26:00 -
[325] - Quote
Wow. Definitely happy I started speculated on Marauders a couple months ago. Wallet Win!
Changes definitely look good. Though kinda worried they might be a bit OP'd with the Ody 1.1 changes to local reps. Especially when you get a group of them jumping around in small gang fights.
|

Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
46
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:27:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).
Please don't do this. Why???? What does safety have to do with activating a module which has nothing to do with criminal actions. You don't need safety off to shoot at a corpmate or a wartarget or a suspect even though it gives you a weapon timer.
Speaking of safety, please bring back warning popups on criminals actions WHEN SAFETY IS OFF. That way newbies can actually learn what action results in what consequence from the game after they turn off safety. Would need an option to permanently disable popups but that would be easy to do.
Great job otherwise. Keep up the good work. Can't wait for winter to come! Run level 4 missions? -áIncrease your income and help new players earn ISK. -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy Pro Synergy is looking for dedicated Salvagers. -áWant to learn more? -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy |

MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:27:00 -
[327] - Quote
It seems like the gap between ASBs and Large armor repair systems is widening a great deal due to these bonuses. From what I can gather... an ASB Vargur can repair about something like 70,000 ehp every second..... a Paladin can only repair like 10k ehp/s.
And oh yeah, the ASB is capless... I mean come on. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
352
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:28:00 -
[328] - Quote
I can't decide if I want to sell my golem now or keep it. I've never really been a fan of MJDs, and Marauders now being built around them? Egh.
Not to mention how abysmally slow and ponderous they are as of these changes, despite being based off of the Attack battleship hulls. :\ That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, personally. |

Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1270
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:29:00 -
[329] - Quote
disappointing.
Without the extra solid dps like dreads get for being a sitting potato, these will not be used very much with the bastion, the MJD bonuses however are cool. If i get one it will be for this not sitting potato mode Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
|

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:31:00 -
[330] - Quote
How do you not know this module has existed for years and that like inferno prototypes have only just found a reason to exist?
Also scatter graphing is one of the most effective ways of plotting data over traditional line graphs or bar graphs. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
|

luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:33:00 -
[331] - Quote
Needs a damage bonus when in siege. Something like 10% |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:34:00 -
[332] - Quote
CCP:
I think, based on all of the comments you see here.
You are trying to put two ships into one.
I believe that "Bastions" would be better fulfilled in a completely new "Command Battleship'. (Which would be awesome for Capital engagements and address some of the command ship issues that are being approached in Odyssey 1.1.
I think Mauraders, if they will stick to the "Harassment" meme, should rely on hit and run tactics, like the MJD buffs, and also support more frigate involvement like giving them a Micro-Jump Portal Generator, (directional, not cyno), to project frigates into a battleship "blob" as fast as possible.
I /really/ think that with all of the comments already stated, you could consider an entirely new battleship, the Command Battleship...
This would make the "Bastion Mode", a "Command Mode", and we would have a different command strategy for capital fights. You can also work in this as a resolution to fleet/field command ship range issues. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:34:00 -
[333] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Wow. Definitely happy I started speculated on Marauders a couple months ago. Wallet Win!
Changes definitely look good. Though kinda worried they might be a bit OP'd with the Ody 1.1 changes to local reps. Especially when you get a group of them jumping around in small gang fights.
I wouldn't go that far yet.. unless missions themselves are modified to be better..
or marauders start seeing much more action in wormholes or something you probably won't see any real long term effect on ships that will now take even longer to train up. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:36:00 -
[334] - Quote
Johann Rascali wrote:The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.
But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module...
Quoting for great Justice! |

Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:41:00 -
[335] - Quote
Azriel X wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.
But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module... umm but it does use fuel... and the skill does reduce fuel use.
No, it doesn't. People jumping through the bridge uses fuel (which is not reduced by the jump bridge skill, but by your local jumpdrive skills), but activating a Black Ops bridge doesn't use any fuel. In fact, it's a passive module. Titan bridges are active modules that require fuel to fire up before anyone jumps.
A Black Ops with Jump Portal Generation I works exactly the same in every way to one with Jump Portal Generation V. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:43:00 -
[336] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Well, it would be wrong to say that marauders weren't already good at pve - particularly because they can salvage as they go (or could until this proposal).
The biggest problem for me is the bastion mode. Not because it's a highly niche ability, but because if I saw it in a science fiction film or book I would stop reading or watching right there and then and condemn the author as an idiot.
It's not even defensible with psuedo-science, let alone physics.
I am certain there has to be a better way to make marauders better at pvp than this mumbo jumbo.
As for these ships appearing in fleets, the determining factor will be payoff vs cost. You pay for (some) pirate ships because they are worth it (bhaalgorn and vindicator and nothing else). This ship still dies to a logi-supported vindi or bhaalgorn, so why would you bring it?
Please stop this madness and go back to the drawing board.
If the Kronus and Paladin are any indication the web bonus for the Vindicator won't be sticking around past or so either.
As for the Basion being supported by science... not much I can say to that. Eve doesn't run on real world physics. If I had to suggest something though I'd say it's using the engines and jump drive to power the system (hence the mass increase and inability to move).
I'm honestly not sure I like the whole concept either but I'm willing to give it a shot. It's just too off the wall to take in and process in one day. I'd at least toyed with the idea that they might get a MJD bonus but I was sort of arguing against "Mini-dreads" in another Marauder thread not 5 hours ago so this is a little bit of a hard reverse for me. It's definitely a better proposition than the mini-dreads thread was but if the best way to do most PvE or PvP content still ends up being to ignore the "Fortress Conversion Drive" or whatever then that's a problem.
I don't think that'll come out in a forum discussion though so I hope these get a very long run of iteration on the Test Server before any final decisions are made.
Ersahi Kir wrote:I'm just going to get this out of the way, because I know it's going to be asked sometime in the future.
Paladin cap bonus gets rolled into the hull, add tracking bonus. Because just about every other cap bonus has been rolled into the hull for a "real" bonus.
This isn't really a bad point all things considered, the problem is what bonus would you give it? Already has Range, Optimal, and self-repair. Doesn't need a second optimal and more tracking would be OP. I'm almost at the point of "give it a Target Painter bonus so it can blap Frigates at long range better" if you're going to replace the cap bonus. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
334
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:45:00 -
[337] - Quote
I wonder if bastion modules are the pheonix buff we've been promised for years. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
124
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:46:00 -
[338] - Quote
Johann Rascali wrote:Azriel X wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.
But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module... umm but it does use fuel... and the skill does reduce fuel use. No, it doesn't. People jumping through the bridge uses fuel (which is not reduced by the jump bridge skill, but by your local jumpdrive skills), but activating a Black Ops bridge doesn't use any fuel. In fact, it's a passive module. Titan bridges are active modules that require fuel to fire up before anyone jumps. As I understand it, a Titan bridge uses a set amount of fuel at first and a little extra cost per ship mass/radius (this is why jumping with an activated MWD is a no no) and the blops bridge uses similar mechanic but no activation cost. |

Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:50:00 -
[339] - Quote
Rowells wrote:As I understand it, a Titan bridge uses a set amount of fuel at first and a little extra cost per ship mass/radius (this is why jumping with an activated MWD is a no no) and the blops bridge uses similar mechanic but no activation cost.
A Titan consumes an amount of Strontium upon activation of its portal, which is reduced by the portal skill. Then when ships go through the bridge, isotopes are pulled as if the Titan were using its own jumpdrive. In the same vane, that fuel use is reduced by the local jump skills. A Black Ops does not have that first bit with the Strontium, and is thus unaffected by the portal skill. |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:50:00 -
[340] - Quote
Big changes.
At first glance, not keen.
The Bastion Module Approach.
With all the balancing changes I try to think about whether this would encourage the ships further use in PVP and encourage players to take the ship into more dangerous areas of the game such as Nullsec/Lowsec. I do not feel this is the case for this module.
Useless for any kind of fleet PVP. Zero speed and no RR makes them very vulnerable.
Small Gang PVP - Same problems. You would think they might crash gate camps and tank everything but they have no ability to hold anything down, and the drone reductions and web removal bonuses reduce damage application again ships within point range, especially scram range where the Marauder needs to dominate due to itGÇÖs reliance on micro jump drives.
Sniping - donGÇÖt need the tank and being immobile for a minute is inviting disaster, and why use a marauder to play out your scenario rather than a sentry Domi.
Anti capital - immobility means death.
So not good against larger ships and not good against smaller ships.
I just struggle to see how this will be used (especially in a harassing form), the only real gain seems to be in High end PVE content such as Wormholes where you would expect to webbed at range anyway or breezing through level 4GÇÖs, where the E-war immunity will make them ideal, possibly still not useful for level 5GÇÖs due to neuting except perhaps the shield Maruaders that can make use of Dual XL-ASB modules.
Bait ship? Massive tank and a cyno.
Also maybe good in POS or I hub bashes, just donGÇÖt get hot dropped, you are toast.
Feel this module should focus on tank and damage application not projection. They need to kill stuff and get out, also zero mobility is a mistake. Massive mobility reduction ok, maybe cannot activate propulsion modules of any kind.
Marauder changes themselves.
An extra high for the new module, ok but not really whats needed.
Marauders do not really have a damage projection problem.
Thinking about PVP again, look at the Kronos/Paladin. Four Mids means Microjump drive, Heavy Cap booster (necessary), then web and point, No conventional prop mod or drop the web and face being easily tackled unable to jump and unable the shake the attacker due to a small drone bay and poor close range damage application.
Trying to be constructive.
Shield Marauders may work better XL-ASB tanks will get round the remaining cap vulnerability combined with capless weapons this could make them very strong.
Just perhaps the Bastion module would work with the web strength bonus on the armour ships as at least you could hold ships down before disengaging after the cycle.
Maybe even remove the extra high and fittings and build in the microjump drive into the mids, a bit like capitals have jump drives or the Echelon ship had a fixed codebreaker.
It sounds like a nice gimmick but I really feel these are being taken in the wrong direction.
They needed electronic upgrades, fittings tweaks and something to differentiate them from pirate battleships, perhaps more strategic manoeuvrability in the form of a limited jump drive that does not require a cyno and locks onto gates instead and that's me going crazy out of the box.
P.S. Target Painter changes are good.
|
|

Lyta Jhonson
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:54:00 -
[341] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:... BASTION MODULE ... I find your lack of creativity disturbing.
What about turning Marauders into analog of real life howitzers with long range AoE weapons designed to spread tight ship formations and force pre-aligned fleets to change their movement vectors? Such marauders in addition to normal guns should be able to launch projectiles similar to current stealth bomber bombs while differences from bombs would be: - launched at the prediction point of current target instead of ship velocity vector for bombs. - formally unlimited range. Effective range would be limited by charge velocity and it should take 15-30 seconds for it to cover typical sniper distance of 100-150 km. - generally lower damage and blast radius than bombs but higher rate of fire of the launchers or turrets which will use those charges |

Moridin Mandarb
The Executives Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:56:00 -
[342] - Quote
I'm sorry, but this about the dumbest idea I have ever heard. Adding a siege module light ensures that the ship will never be used outside of highsec. No Maurader pilot will risk their 700 mil isk hull being locked down for one minute in null sec. In fleet fights, the Bastion mode is even more useless, since they cannot receive remote reps. The MJD bonus is okay, but it doesn't resolve the main reason why Marauders aren't used in PvP; the fact that a frigate with 5 light ECM drones can keep a Marauder permanently jammed, due to it's horrid sensor strength. And since they can be so easily jammed, no one wants to risk a 700 mil ship that can be completely neutralized.
You want to fix them? Make their sensor strength the same or better than their T1 variants. You will then see them in more fleets.
As it is, this new bastion mode would make level 4 missions in high sec ridiculously easy.
I could see as result of this, the price of faction items tanking, because it will be so easy to get the required LP and tags for cheap. |

Trajan Al'Thor
New Eden Order Sev3rance
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 23:58:00 -
[343] - Quote
Paladin needs the cap bonus changed. Bake that into the hull, then add something else. A tracking bonus would be nice, especially without drones.
Otherwise, it certainly looks interesting. |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:04:00 -
[344] - Quote
Moridin Mandarb wrote:I'm sorry, but this about the dumbest idea I have ever heard. Adding a siege module light ensures that the ship will never be used outside of highsec. No Maurader pilot will risk their 700 mil isk hull being locked down for one minute in null sec. In fleet fights, the Bastion mode is even more useless, since they cannot receive remote reps. The MJD bonus is okay, but it doesn't resolve the main reason why Marauders aren't used in PvP; the fact that a frigate with 5 light ECM drones can keep a Marauder permanently jammed, due to it's horrid sensor strength. And since they can be so easily jammed, no one wants to risk a 700 mil ship that can be completely neutralized.
You want to fix them? Make their sensor strength the same or better than their T1 variants. You will then see them in more fleets.
As it is, this new bastion mode would make level 4 missions in high sec ridiculously easy.
I could see as result of this, the price of faction items tanking, because it will be so easy to get the required LP and tags for cheap.
To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:10:00 -
[345] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote: Correct. My excitement got ahead of my math. It's still crazy amounts of added resist. Especially for PVE carebears that don't normally like to fit DCs to their stuff.
DC + ship resist bonus = awesome mission tank foundation. 
Johann Rascali wrote:Azriel X wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.
But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module... umm but it does use fuel... and the skill does reduce fuel use. No, it doesn't. People jumping through the bridge uses fuel (which is not reduced by the jump bridge skill, but by your local jumpdrive skills), but activating a Black Ops bridge doesn't use any fuel. In fact, it's a passive module. Titan bridges are active modules that require fuel to fire up before anyone jumps. A Black Ops with Jump Portal Generation I works exactly the same in every way to one with Jump Portal Generation V. EDIT: Not owning a Titan, maybe theirs are passive modules too, and only consume fuel when you click "Bridge To." In any case, Blops don't require fuel for their portal to be ready for use and are unaffected by the requisite skill.
Woops, I was about to comment on this but I looked it up and stand corrected. Given this I have to say I'm in favor of modifying the existing skill, even as someone who doesn't plan on flying Dreads anywhere in the near-term. |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:12:00 -
[346] - Quote
Lyta Jhonson wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:... BASTION MODULE ... I find your lack of creativity disturbing. What about turning Marauders into analog of real life howitzers with long range AoE weapons designed to spread tight ship formations and force pre-aligned fleets to change their movement vectors? Such marauders in addition to normal guns should be able to launch projectiles similar to current stealth bomber bombs while differences from bombs would be: - launched at the prediction point of current target instead of ship velocity vector for bombs. - formally unlimited range. Effective range would be limited by charge velocity and it should take 15-30 seconds for it to cover typical sniper distance of 100-150 km. - generally lower damage and blast radius than bombs but higher rate of fire of the launchers or turrets which will use those charges
The definition of Marauder is "Someone who raids, pirates," etc..
Therefore, with the harassment theme, it is only reasonable to assert that the entire "Bastion" concept is totally out of place if CCP wants to keep this meme.
The MJD Bonuses work in perfectly.
However, I still content that to DEFINE the current Marauders as a "Harassment" ship, there MUST be some synergy between the Marauder and Frigates.
Frigates ARE THE GO TO HIT AND RUN SHIP.
Therefore Marauders should benefit them.
I Micro-Jump Portal Generator that can be fitted to a Maruader, who then targets a ship, activates ... And then each frigate right clicks the Marauder to jump would be a /perfect/ example of the kind of synergy I am talking about.
Racial Marauders could all have fleet bonuses specialized for Frigates with a specific sensor type, (Radar, Ladar, etc), so that pirate frigates get boosted as well.
MWD Bonuses towards all frigates.
....
The possibilities are endless here...
Make it possible for frigates to engage battleship and capital ship fleets at range, (200km +), and the value of frigates in incursions in large null sec fights will be /incredibly/ changed!
|

Moridin Mandarb
The Executives Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:13:00 -
[347] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote: To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war.
But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has.
In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1217
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:13:00 -
[348] - Quote
Moridin Mandarb wrote:I'm Moridin Mandarb, and I didn't read far enough to realize that my concerns about ECM are unfounded, since Marauders will now be immune to EWAR when in seige mode, allowing them to snipe ECM ships from the field. I also don't seem to understand what a smartbomb does to a flight of ECM drones.
FTFY.
I'm totally digging the lack of imagination in this thread, though.
We have mission runners that don't know how to use an MJD on existing ships, and therefore don't see the benefit in the Marauders' new bonus, and we have small gang PVPers that can't seem to figure out what to do with an ewar and snipe-proof sniping BS that has a built in, infinite set of on-grid tactical warps that don't even break your target lock.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:16:00 -
[349] - Quote
while i like that something radical was done.... i greatly dislike the idea of imobility in that shipsize...
|

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1217
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:16:00 -
[350] - Quote
Moridin Mandarb wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote: To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war. But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has. In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps.
Not every PvP scenario involves 30-40 BSs shooting at you. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
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Arien Fyre
Exemplary Orphans
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:17:00 -
[351] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus. regarding the 90% webs... both in pve and pvp... it's one of the best bonuses in game to be honest... so removing it is a huge nerf. 90% web is exactly enough to lower transversal on frigs for large guns to hit just fine check out my old video as proff http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pgb2CdMDZ5w#t=209 , it shows a vindicator plowing through frigs which are within web range (pve mission in 0.0), also any good pilot will know you can align the targets direction and set your speed to match theirs to effectively remove transversal
at the moment my first reaction is i HATE these changes.
I fly the Kronos more then any other ship in eve, and i am training the Paladin now. Tell me what is the point of killing anything outside of 40KM range in a ship that cant move. Your making it so stuff takes longer.
And a nerf to the drones?? At the moment i fly with a set of salvage, scout and change between a set of 5 medium or 3 heavy/sentry drones. I always thought this ship would be getting more drone ability, not less.
Not one of these changes has addressed that fact that other (pirate) ships do better then these ships.
The changes seem great for PVP But not one single person who has trained these skills for this ship has done so for this reason. I think you are giving new people a reason to train these at the expensive of everyone that trained these for their original purpose. |

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
814
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:17:00 -
[352] - Quote
I'm going to be constructive ok, this is really the best constructive comment I can make.
THIS IS THE DUMBEST IDEA I HAVE SEEN FOR A LONG TIME.
this thread should be locked and should have posted this idea in the 'one-line bad idea' thread here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=272809 GǪ
what happen, run out of priorities and ideas? this is the best you all can do?
I can give you some tips about what really is priority and needs to be fix next, and I give all a free tip: are not the marauders!
Marauders the next priority... hum tell me more, explain how do you got there, priority to who?
Tell me, when do you are going to fix the electronic attack ships? what is more broken and needs more fixes the marauders or the eas?
And the black ops, yes you change some things but the main problems are still there. ...
Tell us when do you are going to sit down and find a proper role for supers and titans in thee battlefield, the solution you promised to find in the next 2 years when you nerf them to the ground 2 years ago?
priorities...
wasting time and development budget with this it just makes me cry. Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |

Parish Kasrkin
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:19:00 -
[353] - Quote
So, given the EXTREME similarity between the Bastion module and the Siege module, why not just make Bastion use the Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration skill and add the cycle time reduction to it? I mean... from what you've already said describing the visual effect of the module, they're literally tactically reconfiguring their weapons package. So why throw another long ass training time skill into the mix when you've already spent so much time training for Marauders? It seems like a silly sidestep.
That said, hnnnnnnnng those marauder changes dear god I can't wait to fly a Vargur. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:20:00 -
[354] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
Has a cycle time of 80 seconds. Cycle is reduced by 5% for each level of Bastion module skill to a minimum of 60 seconds.
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
I love these proposed changes to the Marauders. BASTION only needs one small addition: GÇó Increases rate of fire by 10% and reduces reload time by 10% per skill level (while in BASTION mode)
This is effectively the same as adding a damage modifier, without actually increasing damage - and only when in BASTION mode. |

Waveform Disturbance
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:20:00 -
[355] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos And you guys wonder why small ships are irrelevant in actual fights. Don't be mad Trouser. As for this whole change I like it! Just give the Kronos it's web bonus back 
MY GOD DON'T YOU DARE TAKE AWAY MY DREAM. I NEED THIS. |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:22:00 -
[356] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:I
wasting time and development time with this it just makes me cry.
When I think about the animation they are proposing to apply, I cringe. First, as a Program Manager, I am guessing that the proof of concept has already been done, and CCP is looking for a place to apply it.
That right there, I think is already a waste of tie, especially if they go and apply it to all of the ships.
If you /really/ want "Siege mode battleships," Give us a new "Command Battleship" that we can use in capital fights, save yourselves the effort in the animation sequences.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:23:00 -
[357] - Quote
So, let me get this straight:
On Monday, my X-Type Armor Rep will do 30% more rep...
And then, this Winter, my Pally will also get a magic button that makes NPC EWAR not work on me...
And my Falloff will be out to around 115k...
And there'll be a 30% non-stacking EANM/DC...
And my rep will increase by a further 100 PERCENT...
AND there will be a cool animation associated will all of this ass kickery?
... Holy F**k. |

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:24:00 -
[358] - Quote
2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. And a damage bonus for the bastion module, maybe like 25% or more. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:26:00 -
[359] - Quote
Can we please (please) change the color scheme on the Golem to something that actually looks Caldari? (like the Widow and Nighthawk) |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:29:00 -
[360] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Can we please (please) change the color scheme on the Golem to something that actually looks Caldari? (like the Widow and Nighthawk)
How would you like your camouflage sir, practical? or Gaudy?
:p |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:30:00 -
[361] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. And a damage bonus for the bastion module, maybe like 25% or more. other than that it looks great. I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well.
If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too.
Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore. |

Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
174
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:31:00 -
[362] - Quote
post
saved for edits |

Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
48
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:33:00 -
[363] - Quote
Aglais wrote:I can't decide if I want to sell my golem now or keep it. I've never really been a fan of MJDs, and Marauders now being built around them? Egh.
Not to mention how abysmally slow and ponderous they are as of these changes, despite being based off of the Attack battleship hulls. :\ That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, personally.
Either way you should hold on to it for a bit. Their price is going to skyrocket. Run level 4 missions? -áIncrease your income and help new players earn ISK. -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy Pro Synergy is looking for dedicated Salvagers. -áWant to learn more? -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy |

HazeInADaze
L'Avant Garde
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:36:00 -
[364] - Quote
I like these ideas. It will be interesting to see how they play out, but as ideas, I think they are great.
Can the Marauder be scrammed while sieged or "bastioned"? Can the MJD be used while bastioned? Can the MJD be cycled up and timed with the bastion to jump the ship right after bastion ends?
I'm really hoping so because daaaamn that would make this ship a lot more attractive in small/medium gang fights.
And if you think that would be OP, bastion has the ship going 0m/s, so the marauder would require the full align time to warp out. 100km is not a difficult gap to cross in a battleship's align time. But it would make it very attractive to bring this ship into small scale engagements. |

Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:38:00 -
[365] - Quote
HazeInADaze wrote:I like these ideas. It will be interesting to see how they play out, but as ideas, I think they are great.
Can the Marauder be scrammed while sieged or "bastioned"? Can the MJD be used while bastioned? Can the MJD be cycled up and timed with the bastion to jump the ship right after bastion ends?
I'm really hoping so because daaaamn that would make this ship a lot more attractive in small/medium gang fights.
And if you think that would be OP, bastion has the ship going 0m/s, so the marauder would require the full align time to warp out. 100km is not a difficult gap to cross in a battleship's align time. But it would make it very attractive to bring this ship into small scale engagements.
agreed.
no, no, and i dont think so.
still is, if you're a bit of a wizard with it.
100km isnt such a long distance to cover with 60 seconds plus align time to get there. if you hit the bastion button, you're pretty much alamo'ing if you're not the one doing the engaging.
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:39:00 -
[366] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well. If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore. EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer.
Might as well increase the range of salvage drones too. |

Aron Binchiette
Black Guards
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:39:00 -
[367] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
If no one answered your question already the missile velocity is like having a range and a tracking bonus because not only do they fly farther during the same flight time but now you can more effectively hit faster ships |

Bagu Oskold
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:39:00 -
[368] - Quote
Just let them point supers while in bastion mode. There. Now they do something completely unique to justify their crazy cost, and it fits in well with the 'siege cycle' like repercussions of bastion mode. Someone is a lot more likely to risk their expensive space guppy if it means they can pin down a space whale. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:43:00 -
[369] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well. If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore. EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer. Might as well increase the range of salvage drones too. This can be accomplished with modules. I can salvage at 65km, but I can only tractor at 48. It's not asking for much to extend that a little bit, especially when these changes make my speed 100 m/s and the mass renders AB's useless. |

BFE
Thee Almitee Ones The Unforgiven Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:44:00 -
[370] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
That extra highslot is for the Bastion Module. However, I DO agree with missiles getting a 2nd bonus too, perhaps to explosion velocity, or something. With less drones available, you need to add something to help kill the frigs/destroyers.... |
|

BFE
Thee Almitee Ones The Unforgiven Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:46:00 -
[371] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Tzel Mayon wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well. If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore. EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer. Might as well increase the range of salvage drones too. This can be accomplished with modules. I can salvage at 65km, but I can only tractor at 48. It's not asking for much to extend that a little bit, especially when these changes make my speed 100 m/s and the mass renders AB's useless.
You guys must remember they are also promoting the use of the Micro Jump Drive. Zap, you are now 100km closer to those wrecks. They do need to boost the range to over 50km, so you can reach all wreck inbetween your piont of origination, and current. With only a 48km range, you're missing 4km worth of wrecks..... |

BFE
Thee Almitee Ones The Unforgiven Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:47:00 -
[372] - Quote
Aron Binchiette wrote:SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5 If no one answered your question already the missile velocity is like having a range and a tracking bonus because not only do they fly farther during the same flight time but now you can more effectively hit faster ships A tracking bonus also increases your damage to smaller ships. Simply boosting the missile velocity will not increase that.... |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:53:00 -
[373] - Quote
I really wish MJD had a more variable jump range.
Like, just let me choose between 50km and 100km.... please? Most gates are 50km or less away... and 50km just became a looooong burn in these ships. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:54:00 -
[374] - Quote
BFE wrote:Aron Binchiette wrote:SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5 If no one answered your question already the missile velocity is like having a range and a tracking bonus because not only do they fly farther during the same flight time but now you can more effectively hit faster ships A tracking bonus also increases your damage to smaller ships. Simply boosting the missile velocity will not increase that.... The OP has been corrected. It isn't a tracking bonus, it's a bonus to Optimal and Falloff. Both bonuses are roughly congruent now. He said it was just a typo/misunderstanding. |

Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
878
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:56:00 -
[375] - Quote
about the bastion thingiechangewhatever skill, considering dreadnought siege skills are 8x, i think 6x or 7x would be more suitable to a battleship related skill. |

BFE
Thee Almitee Ones The Unforgiven Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:58:00 -
[376] - Quote
Roger, Roger. Thank you. That makes more sense then.
Let the Pew Pew Pew begin! Golem has always been my favorite ship (followed closely by the Rattlesnake). Now -> I <- am the one laughing at my friends, as they all scramble to get into one. >:) |

Aron Binchiette
Black Guards
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:58:00 -
[377] - Quote
I found a REALLY big possible exploit with this new mod already as a 3x x-l ASB will have a tank that I believe will be way to OP as a maelstrom fit similarly w/ boosts and crystals can tank the same as an un-triaged carrior so with the added effect of the bastion module I believe that it will be to much tank to be allowed on a sub cap so I say make ASB's be un-effected by the bastion mod |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
420
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:01:00 -
[378] - Quote
Bastion mode should add DPS. Especially since they only have 4 turrets. If you could give them 10 effective turrets instead of 8 that would be awesome. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Lithorn
The Dark Tribe Seventh Sanctum.
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:03:00 -
[379] - Quote
If you actually intend to do this and sincerely want this to be a stepping stone to ships like the Dreadnought then I strongly suggest you tie it to the Tactical Weaons Reconiguration skill the dread pilot uses to this "bastion" thingy so there is some uniformity in your skill tree ideology.
(Uniformity in various parts of the Eve world tends to get neglected in spite of CCP's best intentions towards maintaining it. It's vast, your Eve only dev crew is small-ish, most of us understand that.)
The logic behind making it this way is, if CCP does intend this to be a mid point between sub-cap and capital, it would allow current dread pilots to make use of the new marauder features without adding any new and unnecessary skill point baggage. New aspiring dread/marauder can keep their skill chart planning organized without any additional distractions.
(Dreads are a 200+ day plan for a new guy anyway..)
Side note: Please look into giving missile marauders something like one more bonus such as Explosion velocity reduction bonus durion "Bastion" mode. |

BFE
Thee Almitee Ones The Unforgiven Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:03:00 -
[380] - Quote
ANY ship will go down with enough concentrated FIYAPOWA!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKJ1_j3Iz7Y&feature=youtu.be) That was torpedoes only, no bombs. The Marauders are unsung beasts. All these changes are doing is A) Making them even more beastly (and now worth losing the shinies), and B) Making it more known that they're beastly. |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:06:00 -
[381] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Bastion mode should add DPS. Especially since they only have 4 turrets. If you could give them 10 effective turrets instead of 8 that would be awesome. 10 effective turrets... would be awesome.
The problem I see with it is they would be tempted to apply some sort of drawback to compensate, like a tracking debuff. That would be a no-go in missions. Hence why I think they chose to just buff projection.
Something that WOULD help DPS in bastion, without being massively OP to the point it needed a debuff, would be a tracking/exp velocity boost. That would tie in better with the "projection" theme without putting 1800 DPS boats on the table. |

Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
222
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:07:00 -
[382] - Quote
Just wondering on what the odds of these making decent anti-blap dread ships are.
Coast into Siege Bastion under prop (MWD or AB, whatever) while moving with semi-****** transversal, activate bastion, laugh as their attempts to web/paint you for the tracking dread overlords fail?
Of course there is the downside that you'll drift to the point that you've minimized transversal while still in range and die eventually... but if you haven't used your MJD, can you activate it during bastion (say, 10-30 seconds in) and jump out before you're in prime blapping range?
I wonder how these will work, and if you'll be able to MJD during it. That'll also make GTFOing real easy, unless you've got enemies waiting 100km in front of you.
I'm thinking these changes are pretty sweet. The range, tank and EWar immunity is awesome, but I'm just wondering how many ways there are to break things :) |

Aralez
Army Of Penguins
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:08:00 -
[383] - Quote
Part of me feels like this whole thing is gunna get nerfed so fast but i'm hoping to enjoy it while it lasts.
BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL(name not final)
please dont change the name lol..
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:09:00 -
[384] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Tzel Mayon wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well. If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore. EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer. Might as well increase the range of salvage drones too. This can be accomplished with modules. I can salvage at 65km, but I can only tractor at 48. It's not asking for much to extend that a little bit, especially when these changes make my speed 100 m/s and the mass renders AB's useless.
Add the "Looting" ability to salvage drones then? :) |

Cahvus
Funk Soul Brothers Tribal Band
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:09:00 -
[385] - Quote
Overall I'm intrigued by the changes. I'm more of general idea person rather than a specific numbers based guy so this is my opinion thus far:
- Screw the whole bastion thing. It's unnecessary and if you are trying to make marauders a stepping stone to dreads, why give them a completely unrelated skill. That seems totally counter intuitive and counterproductive. They should just make a new type of siege module specifically for marauders that have a lower training time than the maybe the standard siege mod, but still linked to the same skill.
- If you keep the Bastion Blah Blah Skill (or tie it into the siege skill), then change the bonus for Marauders. Having a skill that reduces Siege time is a bad idea in terms of fleet management. Especially if these are meant to be dread step-stones, then there is a good chance that people won't have perfect skills for them. Because of that and the way the skill is proposed to work, there is a high chance of people who have different Bastion(siege) timers than others. In terms of fleet management, having people with longer or shorter timers could be potentially headache inducing. Maybe change the bonus to increased tank in bastion mode, or reduced ammo consumption somehow?
|

Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
222
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:10:00 -
[386] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Aliventi wrote:Bastion mode should add DPS. Especially since they only have 4 turrets. If you could give them 10 effective turrets instead of 8 that would be awesome. 10 effective turrets... would be awesome. The problem I see with it is they would be tempted to apply some sort of drawback to compensate, like a tracking debuff. That would be a no-go in missions. Hence why I think they chose to just buff projection. Something that WOULD help DPS in bastion, without being massively OP to the point it needed a debuff, would be a tracking/exp velocity boost. That would tie in better with the "projection" theme without putting 1800 DPS boats on the table.
You both do know that the Paladin has a 5% damage bonus (10 effective turrets at level V BS, so always 10 effective turrets), the Kronos has a 5% damage bonus (same as above) and the Vargur has a 5% RoF bonus (10.666 turrets).
Just saying. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:11:00 -
[387] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Just wondering on what the odds of these making decent anti-blap dread ships are.
Coast into Siege Bastion under prop (MWD or AB, whatever) while moving with semi-****** transversal, activate bastion, laugh as their attempts to web/paint you for the tracking dread overlords fail?
Of course there is the downside that you'll drift to the point that you've minimized transversal while still in range and die eventually... but if you haven't used your MJD, can you activate it during bastion (say, 10-30 seconds in) and jump out before you're in prime blapping range?
I wonder how these will work, and if you'll be able to MJD during it. That'll also make GTFOing real easy, unless you've got enemies waiting 100km in front of you.
I'm thinking these changes are pretty sweet. The range, tank and EWar immunity is awesome, but I'm just wondering how many ways there are to break things :) I think that Dreds would chew these things up, precisely because of the stationary thing being susceptible to BLAP. But they are going to be the default Sniper boat, methinks. |

Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
222
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:12:00 -
[388] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Just wondering on what the odds of these making decent anti-blap dread ships are.
Coast into Siege Bastion under prop (MWD or AB, whatever) while moving with semi-****** transversal, activate bastion, laugh as their attempts to web/paint you for the tracking dread overlords fail?
Of course there is the downside that you'll drift to the point that you've minimized transversal while still in range and die eventually... but if you haven't used your MJD, can you activate it during bastion (say, 10-30 seconds in) and jump out before you're in prime blapping range?
I wonder how these will work, and if you'll be able to MJD during it. That'll also make GTFOing real easy, unless you've got enemies waiting 100km in front of you.
I'm thinking these changes are pretty sweet. The range, tank and EWar immunity is awesome, but I'm just wondering how many ways there are to break things :) I think that Dreds would chew these things up, precisely because of the stationary thing being susceptible to BLAP. But they are going to be the default Sniper boat, methinks. Again... coast into it. Don't sit still and activate your mod. Do like dreads/carriers and coast into the module with speed. Your increased mass makes you decelerate incredibly slowly so you'll keep velocity up for a very long time. |

Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:15:00 -
[389] - Quote
When I first saw this post I'll admit I was a little horrified, but I told myself I'd give it a couple of hours before I post anything. As time goes by I feel somewhat more acceptance to the idea. Some thoughts on the new bastion module and changes to the marauder hulls.
The bastion module is an interesting idea, and I like how ccp is trying something new by providing a way that people can hunker down in certain situations. Deciding to use the module in pvp situations is going to be a big decision though, because you're essentially forfeiting your ability to escape from a fight should the balance of it change sometime as it plays out. Its a big commitment, and a big drawback to the design, and it should be balanced with a powerful set of advantages. I hope that the omission of a sig rad bonus to large missiles was an oversight, though, it would be nice to see some equivalent feature for missile users.
As for the hulls themselves, I like the changes to powergrid, but I feel like the inclusion of another unbonused high slot isn't really necessary. My personal feeling is that the bonus to tractor beams should be removed completely. Marauders are never going to be as effective as a noctis. Putting that highslot back into lows or mids would be a much better choice, as players using a marauder for pvp are going to find that theres going to be a lot of pressure to fit cap booster etc. Leaving two free will let player use smarbombs, nosferatus, neuts, proble launchers, cloak etc just fine.
Also, marauders are already very light in terms of EHP. Reducing it even further is probably not the best choice. As it stands they're already very vulnerable to tornado camps in highsec. Compared to the tens of thousands of ehp these ships would be able to generate over the course of a fight where the dps incoming was at or less than the level of their tanks, a slightly stronger base ehp would be insignificant, and in a fleet fight it wouldn't do anything to improve their survivability against being primaried. What it would do is to balance out the profit threshold of a tornado camp somewhat, and give players coming out of a station who are being targeted precious seconds to decide what to do. |

Sir Substance
I N E X T R E M I S Gentlemen's Agreement
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:19:00 -
[390] - Quote
I'd like to express my strong dislike for modules that justify ships that justify modules.
I would rather see this bastion module be fittable to any battleship, subject to standard PG/CPU concerns, and give marauders a bonus to it. Maybe make marauders be the only ones that can use it without fuel, or something. Basically what your doing here with the MJD.
And yes, that does mean I find the heavy interdictor/warp disruption field, interdiction/interdiction probe launcher and black ops/covert portal generator combos annoying. Ishtar Starfire: As a pure caldari pilot i feel that with the deployment of the new tier 3 battlecruisers you have given an unfair advantage to everyone except caldari pilots. an example would be like giving a fat kid a whole cake while the skinny kid has to watch and get nothing.
|
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:21:00 -
[391] - Quote
Incursion Impact:
In most incursion fleets, there is a significant need for sniper boats. All of the current sniper battleships will be set aside for these new Siege Battleships, and the SP training time will be very difficult.
Instead of getting frigates into high level incursions, (which I think is very much needed to engage new players, player retention, etc), CCP is again raising the SP bar, and making it even harder for New Players from engaging in a great Feature. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
356
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:26:00 -
[392] - Quote
Joining the call for the Bastion Module to use Tactical Weapons Reconfig, like Siege Modules. I'm sure that your coders are capable of dealing with the small aspect of the fuel reduction on the skill not messing things up easily in the next four months. It creates a good flow through for ships which have similar functions. Much like Covert Ops have the same sub skills needed for function as recons do. And EAF need to train the same EWar skills. They don't suddenly change EWar skills simply because you have gone up a ship size.
Also the low base sensor strength still needs a look at. EWar immunity is all fine & dandy when deployed, but they should have at least T1 BS strength on their sensors to allow for any kind of mobility. Otherwise the MJD bonus part is utterly useless since any time not deployed you can't do anything. |

Tanik Fera
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:26:00 -
[393] - Quote
While the Bastion module is active can you be neuted? |

Meyr
Shiva The Retirement Club
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:27:00 -
[394] - Quote
can I suggest making the Kronos dronebay 75m3? It's not unreasonable to expect a Gallente ship to be able to house a flight of lights and a flight of mediums. |

Onslaughtor
Carbon Dateing
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:34:00 -
[395] - Quote
So how much would it hurt the plan for them if Bastion mode cut the effect of all incoming reps by 30% (or whatever is reasonable) and they could still move like normal but they couldn't MJD or warp? This way I would see them being useful in a much greater area while still being very specialized.
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1250
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:35:00 -
[396] - Quote
i do have to agree if these things are local repair beasts then add a bonus to target spectrum breakers There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Sgt EVE
Die rot-weiss-roten Piloten Cerberus Unleashed
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:36:00 -
[397] - Quote
5 sentry drones for all marauders ( fits to immobility and Tech 2 > faction ) unable to use other drones sentry damage bonus for kronos instead of tracking ( railguns + sentrys > immobile blaster ) |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1250
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:37:00 -
[398] - Quote
Tanik Fera wrote:While the Bastion module is active can you be neuted?
yes There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Kimsemus
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
68
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:44:00 -
[399] - Quote
They said I could be anything...
So I became a sentry drone. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:52:00 -
[400] - Quote
Arien Fyre wrote:at the moment my first reaction is i HATE these changes.
I fly the Kronos more then any other ship in eve, and i am training the Paladin now. Tell me what is the point of killing anything outside of 40KM range in a ship that cant move. Your making it so stuff takes longer.
And a nerf to the drones?? At the moment i fly with a set of salvage, scout and change between a set of 5 medium or 3 heavy/sentry drones. I always thought this ship would be getting more drone ability, not less.
Not one of these changes has addressed that fact that other (pirate) ships do better then these ships.
The changes seem great for PVP But not one single person who has trained these skills for this ship has done so for this reason. I think you are giving new people a reason to train these at the expensive of everyone that trained these for their original purpose.
I think more than anything this shows where they are planning on going with the Pirate BS changes than anything, assume that post-nerf the Pirate BS are not going to be this effective at applying damage in missions.
Goldensaver wrote:Just wondering on what the odds of these making decent anti-blap dread ships are.
Coast into Siege Bastion under prop (MWD or AB, whatever) while moving with semi-****** transversal, activate bastion, laugh as their attempts to web/paint you for the tracking dread overlords fail?
Of course there is the downside that you'll drift to the point that you've minimized transversal while still in range and die eventually... but if you haven't used your MJD, can you activate it during bastion (say, 10-30 seconds in) and jump out before you're in prime blapping range?
I wonder how these will work, and if you'll be able to MJD during it. That'll also make GTFOing real easy, unless you've got enemies waiting 100km in front of you.
I'm thinking these changes are pretty sweet. The range, tank and EWar immunity is awesome, but I'm just wondering how many ways there are to break things :)
They specifically say that the ship's speed gets set to 0, which may mean stops instantly or close to it.
Cahvus wrote:Overall I'm intrigued by the changes. I'm more of general idea person rather than a specific numbers based guy so this is my opinion thus far:
- Screw the whole bastion thing. It's unnecessary and if you are trying to make marauders a stepping stone to dreads, why give them a completely unrelated skill. That seems totally counter intuitive and counterproductive. They should just make a new type of siege module specifically for marauders that have a lower training time than the maybe the standard siege mod, but still linked to the same skill.
- If you keep the Bastion Blah Blah Skill (or tie it into the siege skill), then change the bonus for Marauders. Having a skill that reduces Siege time is a bad idea in terms of fleet management. Especially if these are meant to be dread step-stones, then there is a good chance that people won't have perfect skills for them. Because of that and the way the skill is proposed to work, there is a high chance of people who have different Bastion(siege) timers than others. In terms of fleet management, having people with longer or shorter timers could be potentially headache inducing. Maybe change the bonus to increased tank in bastion mode, or reduced ammo consumption somehow?
What are you even talking about?
Current plan is to make it a completely different skill so it has nothing to do with Dread training so it won't touch your siege timers. |
|

Barry Dylan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:56:00 -
[401] - Quote
This is the best idea ever leave tracking bonus forget DPS bonus and man, this adds another level to PVE in high-sec and like two levels to PVE in low-sec/0.0
also this benefits big fleets not at all and gives an option to small gang/solo.
DO IT |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4030
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:56:00 -
[402] - Quote
What about converting tactical logistics reconfiguration to a percentage reduction in fuel use, adding a fuel bay to marauders, using heavy water as originally considered?
It would be nice to have a better range bonus for tractors, along with tractor speed and salvager cycle time or salvage chance when the bastion is active. A marauder could have the same range as a Noctis without being too efficient since the Noctis has more tractors, more salvagers, and is more likely to have salvage tackle fitted. If the marauder can't salvage the wrecks created at maximum range while en-bastion-ed, that kinda reduces the attractiveness of this ship for PvE. Even a 200% bonus to range will still make salvaging in a marauder more attractive :)
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:57:00 -
[403] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Aliventi wrote:Bastion mode should add DPS. Especially since they only have 4 turrets. If you could give them 10 effective turrets instead of 8 that would be awesome. 10 effective turrets... would be awesome. The problem I see with it is they would be tempted to apply some sort of drawback to compensate, like a tracking debuff. That would be a no-go in missions. Hence why I think they chose to just buff projection. Something that WOULD help DPS in bastion, without being massively OP to the point it needed a debuff, would be a tracking/exp velocity boost. That would tie in better with the "projection" theme without putting 1800 DPS boats on the table. You both do know that the Paladin has a 5% damage bonus (10 effective turrets at level V BS, so always 10 effective turrets), the Kronos has a 5% damage bonus (same as above) and the Vargur has a 5% RoF bonus (10.666 turrets). Just saying.
Derp. What my brain muscles were trying to say was:
12.5 effective turrets (DPS) / 13.3 effective turrets (ROF) = Ain't gonna happen without a debuff.
|

Oberus MacKenzie
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:58:00 -
[404] - Quote
Nerfing the cap recharge on ships that require shield boosters because of their nonexistent buffer is questionable. I do think that if you're not going to give the paladin a tracking bonus of some kind then they need better drones to deal with close targets. Having to be far away from your target sort of defeats the purpose of having a massive active tank. I like the minidread idea, though. Looking forward to the hit-and-run tactics that will follow. Giving them a bonus to spectrum breakers would be really cool.
Edit: the golem needs a big bonus to painter range if it wants to use them with cruise missiles. |

m0jo
STEEL CITY. Tribal Band
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:03:00 -
[405] - Quote
My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?
Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh. |

Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:04:00 -
[406] - Quote
The whole problem that i have with marauders, is that they were ment to be the top end PVE class of ship, The end all be all of ratting.
This never became a reality, as faction battleships out damage and in some cases out tank marauders.
I think holding a marauder in place in 0.0 is suicide - not may people use them anyway for the reasons above. The best and really only way to fix them imho would be to Give them most of the bonus's from the siege mod but forget the siege mod.
also we need to make them have more damage and more tank base - So lets take a paladin for example
Paladin
Role Bonus: 200%(+100%) bonus to large energy weapon damage, 30% shield, armor and hull resistances(no stacking penalty), Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking
Marauder Skill Bonus: 25% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems 4% bonus to all resistances per level
Slot layout: 7H, 4M, 8L(+1); 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800 / 10000 / 6000 <-- changed all of them to better suit a marauder Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 100km / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 8 Radar Signature radius: 420(-80)
Now Something like this would make people WANT to fly it for PVE, its powerful enough that people would use these in 0.0.
some will say it looks overpowered but it has 8 Sensor strength, so even a half noob blackbird pilot can perma jam this with 1 jammer...
Also i was thinking of maybe a vulnerability stat for it, Where say... player(not NPC) EW mods have a 25% bonus towards you.
All in all, this would make it a MASSIVELY AMAZING OVERPOWERED RATTINGSHIP.. but it would be useless in pvp.. and thats what marauders should be. |

Theodoric Darkwind
PonyWaffe Insidious Empire
290
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:04:00 -
[407] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. The "cannot move for the duration of the module cycle" = not usable in lowsec, nullsec or wormholes. And it now looks like you have balanced marauders around the expectation that they will use this module.
No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:10:00 -
[408] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:When I first saw this post I'll admit I was a little horrified, but I told myself I'd give it a couple of hours before I post anything. As time goes by I feel somewhat more acceptance to the idea. Some thoughts on the new bastion module and changes to the marauder hulls.
The bastion module is an interesting idea, and I like how ccp is trying something new by providing a way that people can hunker down in certain situations. Deciding to use the module in pvp situations is going to be a big decision though, because you're essentially forfeiting your ability to escape from a fight should the balance of it change sometime as it plays out. Its a big commitment, and a big drawback to the design, and it should be balanced with a powerful set of advantages. I hope that the omission of a sig rad bonus to large missiles was an oversight, though, it would be nice to see some equivalent feature for missile users.
As for the hulls themselves, I like the changes to powergrid, but I feel like the inclusion of another unbonused high slot isn't really necessary. My personal feeling is that the bonus to tractor beams should be removed completely. Marauders are never going to be as effective as a noctis. Putting that highslot back into lows or mids would be a much better choice, as players using a marauder for pvp are going to find that theres going to be a lot of pressure to fit cap booster etc. Leaving two free will let player use smarbombs, nosferatus, neuts, proble launchers, cloak etc just fine.
Also, marauders are already very light in terms of EHP. Reducing it even further is probably not the best choice. As it stands they're already very vulnerable to tornado camps in highsec. Compared to the tens of thousands of ehp these ships would be able to generate over the course of a fight where the dps incoming was at or less than the level of their tanks, a slightly stronger base ehp would be insignificant, and in a fleet fight it wouldn't do anything to improve their survivability against being primaried. What it would do is to balance out the profit threshold of a tornado camp somewhat, and give players coming out of a station who are being targeted precious seconds to decide what to do.
Summing it up, I think its a good start, but theres a lot of work left to be done to get it right, and achieving a balance ship that people are going to want to use is going to be tough.
Edit: Idk Im feeling a little wishy washy about the module. Part of me feels like id rather see a very strong hull with some of the dawbacks of the module, but without having to use it. That would give people a few more options as far as fitting goes, while keeping a ship that feels less like a mobile coffin.
So, first off yay for well reasoned reactions.
Second if you check the tracking bonus is gone, per Rise's earlier comment that neither were supposed to get a damage application bonus.
I believe the tractor-beam bonus is being left in because some people do use it and it has absolutely zero effect on PvP or anyone who chooses not to use it. It doesn't seem to be factored into overall balance.
EHP doesn't seem to be going down very much especially if you have tank fitted and turned on. If you get caught without your tank on then that's sort of of your own fault. If you get caught by Tornadoes you can always pop Bastion and hope they don't have enough to kill you with it running. The ship hulls themselves don't factor into anyone's profit margins and with these changes you should be more able to fit them to run missions effectively at low cost without resorting to modules that will get you ganked.
As to the module, the only drawbacks are the immobility, inability to be remote assisted, and timer. Moving any of these to the ship isn't practical and buffing the ships risks pushing them into the realm of overpowered.
Tzel Mayon wrote: Incursion Impact:
In most incursion fleets, there is a significant need for sniper boats. All of the current sniper battleships will be set aside for these new Siege Battleships, and the SP training time will be make incursions even more elitist, and anti-new player.
Instead of getting frigates into high level incursions, (which I think is very much needed to: engage new players, player retention, etc); CCP is again raising the SP bar, and making it even harder for New Players to engage in a great Feature.
One more time:
Create Marauder / Frigate synergies to exemplify the "Marauder Hit and Run Harassment Meme."
Lots of options here. But, a battleship supporting frigates is such a freakin' awesome idea, right???
1. Frigate MWD Fleet bonuses. 2. Frigate Racial Fleet Bonuses in a Marauder Fleet. 3. Marauder Micro-Jump Portal Generator that paints ships 200km away, and allow frigate pilots to activate the portal and jump 10km away from the target that was 200km away.
Bring New Players into the Awesomeness! Make it so everyone is looking for new frigate pilots! Let Marauders be the tool that does it!
The current elitist view of incursions is entirely the result of the player-base, not CCP. You very much can do incursions in T1 battleships with reasonable efficacy. That most of the major groups don't accept them with any regularity is their decision to prefer isk efficiency over being inclusive. If you want incursions to be more inclusive then be more inclusive in who you take on your fleets. A higher SP player is always going to be preferable to a lower SP one.
Besides that you seem to be trying to turn these into something they currently do not resemble in any way that is specifically geared toward a single aspect of the game (incursions) rather than having any sort of application outside that. These are not command ships, that was last month's thread. |

Pyus
State Protectorate Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:13:00 -
[409] - Quote
I rarely comment on these threads but just want to say that I'm really impressed with the creativity of this change. Looking forward to what comes out of it. |

Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
223
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:13:00 -
[410] - Quote
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though. Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. The "cannot move for the duration of the module cycle" = not usable in lowsec, nullsec or wormholes. And it now looks like you have balanced marauders around the expectation that they will use this module. No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes. The only possible PvP use I could see for the Bastion module would be for some ASB/AAR gimmick fit designed to play station games in lowsec. To be honest, I think that it could even work in incursions. The huge tanking bonuses the mod gives will make it so a dual rep/XLSB ship should be able to tank the incursion rats for the 10 second attention span they have (most times). Of course that's a lot of risk hoping that they don't go ******* nuts on one specific person and want to murder them with a singlemindedness they rarely (though often enough) show. |
|

Vaeragoth
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:15:00 -
[411] - Quote
When will I be able to inject the Bastion Skill!?!? I fly a Kronos and the bastion skill is in line with my current Neural Remap, however I was planning to change my remap just as soon as I finished training Minmatar Battleship V and I don't really want to wait because I don't have anything else that I particularly want to train under perception and willpower |

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
244
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:15:00 -
[412] - Quote
Shut up and have my babies! "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:16:00 -
[413] - Quote
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:[quote=CCP Ytterbium] Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. .
I think the local rep boost, the massive bonuses to range, etc, would make these perfect in incursions for ranged DPS.
The logistics fleet would be swarming combat, as usual), while the Marauders would be way out of range.
They go into siege mode, volley a few times, MJD out, Siege again,Volley, Rinse and Repeat.
These would change incursions so that all of the other ranged battleships would be "elite-asized" out. I think by doing this CCP is making the barrier to entry far more SP intense for new players.
Not a good change for Incursions. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
331
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:22:00 -
[414] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about converting tactical logistics reconfiguration to a percentage reduction in fuel use, adding a fuel bay to marauders, using heavy water as originally considered?
It would be nice to have a better range bonus for tractors, along with tractor speed and salvager cycle time or salvage chance when the bastion is active. A marauder could have the same range as a Noctis without being too efficient since the Noctis has more tractors, more salvagers, and is more likely to have salvage tackle fitted. If the marauder can't salvage the wrecks created at maximum range while en-bastion-ed, that kinda reduces the attractiveness of this ship for PvE. Even a 200% bonus to range will still make salvaging in a marauder more attractive :)
at the very least I think they need a speed bonus on the tractors, compared to the nocits it just doesn't seem like it is worth salvaging at all in a marauder. I create wrecks far faster than I can tractor them, even if they are all in range. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Naomi Anthar
104
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:23:00 -
[415] - Quote
And that is what i'm talking about. Welcome back Ytterbium.
At least there is no joke like Kronos with better cap than Paladin. (talking about Deimos vs Zealot)
That's right - properly balanced cap. Laser boat gets straightforward better cap amount and regen. NO GALLENTE LOVE.
+1 to this.
Now Ytterbium i wait for promised buffs to Phantasm (and hopefully also extremly terrible succubus) - i like those spiky ships. Need some love fast. ;) |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:23:00 -
[416] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: The current elitist view of incursions is entirely the result of the player-base, not CCP. You very much can do incursions in T1 battleships with reasonable efficacy. That most of the major groups don't accept them with any regularity is their decision to prefer isk efficiency over being inclusive. If you want incursions to be more inclusive then be more inclusive in who you take on your fleets. A higher SP player is always going to be preferable to a lower SP one.
Besides that you seem to be trying to turn these into something they currently do not resemble in any way that is specifically geared toward a single aspect of the game (incursions) rather than having any sort of application outside that. These are not command ships, that was last month's thread.
I do understand the point of isk/hour ...
But, by having Marauders supporting frigates, like being able to micro-jump-portal them to the front lines, the SP barrier is broken....
That was the point of my entire suggestion.
CCP WANTS to redefine the Marauders, so your objection that I am turning them into something they are not, and making them more in line with CCP's "Vision" of them .... well, yeah, that's exactly what I am trying to support.
Allow frigate pilots and Marauders to have awesome synergy in hit and run raiding / marauding operations.
What is so wrong with this?
Frigates that can be pushed out instantly 200km away in the middle of an incursion fleet would be STUPID awesome. The PVP ramifications are INCREDIBLE.
Tournaments would be VERY awesome ....
New players would be able to participate with MUCH lower SP.
It would be a beautiful world.
"Rebalancing" isn't just about ships, it is also about "Roles" .... and the "Role" of the frigate pilot could be substantially increased if Marauders were used to support them in "Marauding" tactics. |

Damage Sponge
Team Bullet Sponge
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:28:00 -
[417] - Quote
Few Question about the about entering "Bastion Mode"
Does this act similarly to the Siege module in that all previous locked ships will be lost and you need to re-target them once activated?
Also will deployed drones be lost similar to Carriers when they activate the Triage module before recalling their drones?
Too possibly keep the Tractor/Salvage theme going, A roll bonus to Salvager cycle time say 25-50% might once again help Marauders compete with the Noctis.
Only comment on the Ship rebalancing would be to keep the 90% Web bonus on the Kronos and possibly change the Paladin bonus to a 37.5 tracking bonus to help with Beam Lasors, but I guess this depends if the Paladin is designed to be a Beam or Pulse fit Hull. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:29:00 -
[418] - Quote
m0jo wrote:My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?
Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh.
Probably because of how powerful the Vargur resists are, especially with Bastion.
2 CN Invuls, a DC2, T2 EM Resist rig, and Bastion gives you EM: 84.8% Thermal: 81.95% Kinetic: 84.5% Explosive 87.1%. Combine that with shield boosts and the Vargur is going to be ridiculously hard to kill.
Trespasser wrote: All in all, this would make it a MASSIVELY AMAZING OVERPOWERED RATTINGSHIP.. but it would be useless in pvp.. and thats what marauders should be.
Overpowered is not good for any aspect of the game, even PvE. Plus what you're talking about may be countered by ECM but is completely over-powered in all other respects and is far from useless in PvP as a whole.
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. The "cannot move for the duration of the module cycle" = not usable in lowsec, nullsec or wormholes. And it now looks like you have balanced marauders around the expectation that they will use this module.
No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes.
The only possible PvP use I could see for the Bastion module would be for some ASB/AAR gimmick fit designed to play station games in lowsec.
You're not being creative enough. I've already been talking with incursion and WH people both of whom are thinking this has a lot of potential for both areas. The massive local tank means the ship can likely be used in at least Vanguard Incursions even without Logi support. The same applies to C4 wormholes if you're willing to take the risk of being caught with your Bastion up. If you have any sort of backup though this isn't much of a problem, ditto for lower end Null sites.
CCP's handy balancing chart says that it's more likely Pirate Battleships will end up being higher damage T1 ships but without the T2 resists and may lose some of their utility in the mix.
More specifically I wouldn't expect these to be PvP focused T2 Battleships, that's what the Black-Ops will likely turn into (at least in part) when they get revamped and split into two different ships. |

Flyinghotpocket
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
169
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:32:00 -
[419] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
PALADIN
Signature radius: 420(-80) GOLEM Signature radius: 450(-125) KRONOS Signature radius: 420(-80)
VARGUR
Signature radius: 360(-65)
sig on the vargur....
im tired of winmatar online |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:35:00 -
[420] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote: I do understand the point of isk/hour ...
But, by having Marauders supporting frigates, like being able to micro-jump-portal them to the front lines, the SP barrier is broken....
That was the point of my entire suggestion.
CCP WANTS to redefine the Marauders, so your objection that I am turning them into something they are not, and making them more in line with CCP's "Vision" of them .... well, yeah, that's exactly what I am trying to support.
Allow frigate pilots and Marauders to have awesome synergy in hit and run raiding / marauding operations.
What is so wrong with this?
Frigates that can be pushed out instantly 200km away in the middle of an incursion fleet would be STUPID awesome. The PVP ramifications are INCREDIBLE.
Tournaments would be VERY awesome ....
New players would be able to participate with MUCH lower SP.
It would be a beautiful world.
"Rebalancing" isn't just about ships, it is also about "Roles" .... and the "Role" of the frigate pilot could be substantially increased if Marauders were used to support them in "Marauding" tactics.
What does your suggestion do that I can't already do outside of Incursions with a cloaky frigate and probes?
In incursions why would I bring a mob of frigates over a couple of long-range fit Battleships? Per ship they're not going to deal more damage, they die faster, and besides which very little spawns out that far anyway.
Never mind that the SP requirements for a T2 tanked Battleship and a T2 tanked Assault Frigate aren't that far apart since the AFs take a lot better fitting skills to fit effectively.
This falls under the heading of "cool concept in theory that completely breaks down when it's introduced to reality". Making ISK in this game is supposed to take a bit of SP and making the best ISK requires investing a good amount of ISK and time and effort into it, hence Incursions.
Also, just a side note, Eve Uni still runs incursions with fairly low SP pilots that the "elite" groups won't take. |
|

Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:36:00 -
[421] - Quote
Can... can I kiss you? |

Aralez
Army Of Penguins
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:36:00 -
[422] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Anyone else thinking double XLASB Vargur with this will be OP.. like.. Dreadnought sized tank.
*evil grin* absolutely not! shame on you.
I do wonder if this could be usable in a wh? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:38:00 -
[423] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:How would you like your camouflage sir, practical? or Gaudy? :p
Something other than practically gaudy, how's that? ;) |

Naomi Anthar
104
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:44:00 -
[424] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
PALADIN
Signature radius: 420(-80) GOLEM Signature radius: 450(-125) KRONOS Signature radius: 420(-80)
VARGUR
Signature radius: 360(-65)
sig on the vargur.... im tired of winmatar online
I though everyone got used to obvious : That Minmatar ships must be most versatile, fastest , most agile along with lowest signatue ... why ? Because we are Minmatars. What price we pay for this advantage ? We don't we are minmatars.
It may sound like sarcasm , but actually i'm starting to live with it :<. I always though for some advantage there must be drawback but Minnies and gallente also are exception. Just advantages.
Tho this balance pass is surprisingly good. Paladin cap will be retardely insane. So for first time i must say amarr ship will get it's own advantage.
I will say even more i'm pleased with overral approach in this topic : Amarr GOT something NOONE got. Yeah i still don't believe i say this. Usually other factions get amarr stuff as free bonus .
|

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
111
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:55:00 -
[425] - Quote
weird.
Now give freighters siege mode to cut down on posts about them getting bumped/ganked. |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:00:00 -
[426] - Quote
To answer the questions why I believe Marauders, (and what CCP has already stated), should be optimized for Hit and Run Raider/Marauder tactics: In short, create frigate synergy with Marauders. This accomplishes CCP's goal in nearly every way, AND fulfills a LOT of CCP's other goals. Remove the tank bonuses the siege mode. Make getting into and out of Siege mode faster. Make transitioning a disruptable action.
Give Marauders short range Micro-Jump-Portal Generators, with Cyno Painters, to get Frigates/Destroyers to the front lines instantly, or give them Frigate/Destroyer MWD Fleet Bonuses --- ANYTHING.
Cade Windstalker wrote: In incursions why would I bring a mob of frigates over a couple of long-range fit Battleships? Per ship they're not going to deal more damage, they die faster, and besides which very little spawns out that far anyway.
Frigates wouldn't die faster in Incursions if they got to the front lines instantaneously. Besides, the concept is to increase the "depth" of Eve Online, to utilize more fleet tactics, to try to get every role engaged if possible. Where there are frigates, there can be destroyers, where there are destroyers, cruisers, etc.
Electronic Attack Frigates in incursions would be really fun. But, more to my original point: Marauders having awesome synergy with frigates would incentivize null sec corps to bring a LOT more frigates to their conflicts!
Cade Windstalker wrote: What does your suggestion do that I can't already do outside of Incursions with a cloaky frigate and probes?
1. Acceleration gates are often problematic for probes in both faction warfare plexes, and incursions. Warping to targets on the other side is well, difficult(?) :p , which makes buzzards, et al, very difficult to use in this cotext.
2. Probing down targets in an incursion is time dependent, whereas a jump-portal-generator and painter are /tactical/ solutions that can be used for on-grid targets that don't need to be probed down.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Never mind that the SP requirements for a T2 tanked Battleship and a T2 tanked Assault Frigate aren't that far apart since the AFs take a lot better fitting skills to fit effectively.
Wha??? I wish that were true! But why narrow this down to assault frigates? I was actually thinking Electronic Warfare Frigates, tbh. Interdictors, destroyers, etc.
When I started playing Eve, I NEVER wanted to fly battleships, /perhaps/ a command ship.... But All I wanted was to be an awesome frigate pilot.
... Until I found out I /had/ to specialize in battleships for Level IV missions to make enough ISK to pay for my addiction to getting blown up in my frigates. :)
As a frigate pilot, I want /way/ more opportunities for employment... I want there to be a a GOOD reason to bring frigates to a massive battleship, or even capital ship fight.... Siege Battleships, and/ships with synergy with Frigates accomplish this!
Cade Windstalker wrote: Making ISK in this game is supposed to take a bit of SP and making the best ISK requires investing a good amount of ISK and time and effort into it, hence Incursions.
This is /complete/ crap.
ISK acquisition in Eve, (explicitly stated /many/ times by CCP, and others), is about the cooperation and exploitation of allies. This is how brand new pilots can actually make decent ISK in faction warfare.
NONE of my recommendations about the new Marauders having Synergy with Frigates to have awesome hit and run mechanics in Eve had ANYTHING to do with ISK. It was just to make the game /funner/ to play, and more ENJOYABLE for new players.
(Not everyone plays for the ISK.)
A "Siege Mode" Marauder is self-contradicting to the idea of "Harassment and Raiding and Marauding" if that Siege mode gives bonuses to Tank, but not so much to DPS and Range. |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1983
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:01:00 -
[427] - Quote
here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? Right now you see everything, T1 BS, faction BS, some machs here and there etc. You could create the "T3 effect" again where there was no point to fly anything else beside tengus for most pve scenarios.
kudos for the pvp roles however, looking forward to form voltron and MJD around. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:04:00 -
[428] - Quote
Rise Paladins! Our Capacitor will blot out the SUN! |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:05:00 -
[429] - Quote
i do not like these changes.
i don't really know where to start...
i guess for any situation i just dont see this ship being better then anything currently in place. The bonuses are range and tank while imobile - but in any given situation i already have ships with enough range and enough tank that will most likely out -effective - dps this one (esp in the case as the vargur)
i suppose it doesnt help that i dont want to put an MJD on it, i just dont want to.
this ship seems almost foolish. Why use it? Great tank? it seems like one would go out solo with it, tank a lot, then die due to imobility or being scrammed as soon as you come out of bastion.
So its bad in group pvp, it may be useful kiting in small gang pvp, its not good in L4s or incursions, so maybe L5s? i dont know. I am just not happy with this....
i mean, this takes a shitton of skills and is expensive, why give it such a niche role that people wont want to use it? i dont know, its like the old target painter bonus on the bellicose - at least the bellicose is easy and cheap to get into.
I want something more from the ship that takes probably the most isk+sp that is allowed in highsec....
i would have been happy if all they did was increase the PG and left the rest the same.... If you want to be this radical, the dps boost should be added to bastion mode. And why you gotta take away my drones? i like not taking years to kill PVE frigates.....thats just a smack in the face. Its not like they give use damage boost |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:09:00 -
[430] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? .
Because the skill requirement to fly these ships maybe? |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1172
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:09:00 -
[431] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:So, let me get this straight:
On Monday, my X-Type Armor Rep will do 30% more rep...
And then, this Winter, my Pally will also get a magic button that makes NPC EWAR not work on me...
And my Falloff will be out to around 115k...
And there'll be a 30% non-stacking EANM/DC...
And my rep will increase by a further 100 PERCENT...
AND there will be a cool animation associated will all of this ass kickery?
... Holy F**k.
First off, you repper only does 15% more. As for the rest of the stuff, yeah, but you also get a LOT of nerfs. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:16:00 -
[432] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
PALADIN
Signature radius: 420(-80) GOLEM Signature radius: 450(-125) KRONOS Signature radius: 420(-80)
VARGUR
Signature radius: 360(-65)
sig on the vargur.... im tired of winmatar online I though everyone got used to obvious : That Minmatar ships must be most versatile, fastest , most agile along with lowest signatue ... why ? Because we are Minmatars. What price we pay for this advantage ? We don't we are minmatars. It may sound like sarcasm , but actually i'm starting to live with it :<. I always though for some advantage there must be drawback but Minnies and gallente also are exception. Just advantages. Tho this balance pass is surprisingly good. Paladin cap will be retardely insane. So for first time i must say amarr ship will get it's own advantage. I will say even more i'm pleased with overral approach in this topic : Amarr GOT something NOONE got. Yeah i still don't believe i say this. Usually other factions get amarr stuff as free bonus . I would like to see one racial trait reversed, and I think some balance would return:
Scan Res: Switch Caldari and Minni scan res across every companion ship. Every. Single. One.
Caldari should have the best sensors, and Minni electronics should be ****. For some reason though, the high tech Caldari have the worst scan res every single time- to include Marauders.
I say this as an Amarr pilot. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:16:00 -
[433] - Quote
I've been mulling this around more. I can't see players running both a Bastion and salvage fit - but even so there should be a bit of a tradeoff. I think the class would be better served by instead allocating the extra high slot to a medium or low. The powergrid requirements for the Bastion module should also be in the 500-1000 range.
I'm not crazy about the idea of "siege light", so I would eliminate all speed restrictions and instead require heavy water to operate (200 units per cycle), leave the cycle at a flat 60 seconds and instead have the Bastion skill reduce heavy water consumption by 5% per skill level. I still like the idea of enhancing it with a +10% rate of fire and -10% reloading time per skill level, and offset this with a 120-second cooldown period (which could also be reduced by 5% per Bastion skill level).
It can't micro jump while in Bastion mode, there's a penalty on gate use - so without a jump drive it's not like it's going anywhere. |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1984
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:18:00 -
[434] - Quote
Siddicus wrote:Bienator II wrote:here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? . Because the skill requirement to fly these ships maybe? thats very short sighted. Its like saying there won't be many titans around since they are expensive and you have to skill them. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:19:00 -
[435] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:20:00 -
[436] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I've been mulling this around more. I can't see players running both a Bastion and salvage fit - but even so there should be a bit of a tradeoff. I think the class would be better served by instead allocating the extra high slot to a medium or low. The powergrid requirements for the Bastion module should also be in the 500-1000 range.
I'm not crazy about the idea of "siege light", so I would eliminate all speed restrictions and instead require heavy water to operate (200 units per cycle), leave the cycle at a flat 60 seconds and instead have the Bastion skill reduce heavy water consumption by 5% per skill level. I still like the idea of enhancing it with a +10% rate of fire and -10% reloading time per skill level, and offset this with a 120-second cooldown period (which could also be reduced by 5% per Bastion skill level).
It can't micro jump while in Bastion mode, there's a penalty on gate use - so without a jump drive it's not like it's going anywhere.
This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?
Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place! |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:25:00 -
[437] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I've been mulling this around more. I can't see players running both a Bastion and salvage fit - but even so there should be a bit of a tradeoff. I think the class would be better served by instead allocating the extra high slot to a medium or low. The powergrid requirements for the Bastion module should also be in the 500-1000 range.
I'm not crazy about the idea of "siege light", so I would eliminate all speed restrictions and instead require heavy water to operate (200 units per cycle), leave the cycle at a flat 60 seconds and instead have the Bastion skill reduce heavy water consumption by 5% per skill level. I still like the idea of enhancing it with a +10% rate of fire and -10% reloading time per skill level, and offset this with a 120-second cooldown period (which could also be reduced by 5% per Bastion skill level).
It can't micro jump while in Bastion mode, there's a penalty on gate use - so without a jump drive it's not like it's going anywhere. This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features? Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place! Because 2 million EHP bricks are not enough. We must have 8 million EHP bricks!! That tank like dreads! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:25:00 -
[438] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?
Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place!
Is there any group that doesn't bring a dedicate Noctis along for salvaging? (regardless of activity) The only benefit of being able to run a salvage/tractor setup is that I guess it could be utilized for solo play, so from a legacy standpoint the bonuses are fine. I'd just rather see that extra slot put to better use for the class as a medium or low. |

ROCK MELTER
GETCO
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:29:00 -
[439] - Quote
Will need separate:
- Ammo bay
- Stront Bay
AND
- Ammo bay will need to be able to hold cap boosters to these ships can be put on other ships to transport them.
- They will need to be able to be carried in carriers and other ships with these needed items in them.
- When they are in "siege mode" they can not eject in their pod.
Keeping it real since Eve BETA. How? Becasue I was there.
http://rockmelter.blogspot.com |

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
550
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:29:00 -
[440] - Quote
Primary is primary is primary is insured ship loss.
I don't want to **** on your cornflakes but as long as that is the key feature of EVE PvP nothing you do matters, nothing I do matters. Sorry guys but it just looks like more rope a dope. You want us to face tank and I think we all know that's a dead end road in EVE. |
|

Sarmatiko
1380
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:30:00 -
[441] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? I don't know about you, but as operator of help channel with 800+ players at prime, everyday I see recommendations to get a Tengu, Nightmare and Machariel for PVE. Any argument in defense of Marauders breaks against arrogant public opinion "Marauders are not worth invested training time, just get a Pirate BS or CNR". Now this will change. -¥ |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:30:00 -
[442] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tzel Mayon wrote:This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?
Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place! Is there any group that doesn't bring a dedicate Noctis along for salvaging? (regardless of activity) The only benefit of being able to run a salvage/tractor setup is that I guess it could be utilized for solo play, so from a legacy standpoint the bonuses are fine. I'd just rather see that extra slot put to better use for the class as a medium or low.
For Salvaging? We haven't used Noctis ships to salvage in a /very/ long time. Launching Salvage drones from 3 battleships is /so/ much more time efficient than bring a Noctis along. As a salvager for High Sec Lvl IVs, the Noctis is pretty obsolete.
We do however bring an Orca at times and the Tractor Bonuses are great for looting. Or even a destroyer...
Null sec is quite a different story though, in Noctis is a great ship for that. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4032
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:35:00 -
[443] - Quote
Will the Bastion module be high slot? Or are we going to see a clear bias against shield or armour fleets when it turns out to be a mid or low slot?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
331
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:35:00 -
[444] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
teehee, getting people to turn their safeties off! that should be fun.
and that certainly seems like a lot of blaster range, does the stacking penalty apply to the optimal/falloff bonus? or was that falloff within 55-60km, as in ~20km and then 35-40km or so of falloff? oh right falloff bonus (useless imo, as you probably want rails)
I think the kronos could probably use a bit more damage, the ability to use 3x sentry drones with its rails brought it up in dps to be nearly competitive with other marauders. although I will probably be able to throw a t2 damage rig on the paladin too. and with the range bonus on the paladin wow! A 3 damage mod, t2 rof rig, and 3 sentry drone kronos does about the same damage as a 3 damage mod with 2 sentry drone paladin. with the changes I'll probably have both with 4 damage mods and t2 rof rigs. oh yes and that was in EFT without reload time.... with reload time the kronos just looks sad.
so with reload time, 4 faction damage mods, t2 rof rigs, 5% damage implants, no drones, and close range faction ammo, I present tachys vs 425mm railguns! kronos: 982 dps (without reload time 1007 dps), aw shucks, lets try null 1166 dps/1185 dps reload time isn't so bad with blasters, and for epeen numbers void! 1633/1658 paladin: 1146 dps (1354 with conflag and 967 with scorch) varg: 1165 with its close range ammo and 800s
425s and tachys have fairly similar stats (well except for damage) on a mission boat. I don't know if the ability to switch to blasters makes up for it. Null just slightly out damages a tach paladin, and well has nowhere near the range. especially vs a what 60-70km optimal tach paladin with the change? and if we are admitting the web bonus is useless for most missions well that just takes any other advantage blasters could possibly have (outside of a very small number of missions)
as a railboat the kronos just comes up short. and well as an immobile blaster boat... well "immobile blaster boat" You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:40:00 -
[445] - Quote
Forget my other ideas - I just had a wild and crazy one...
bas-+tion GÇó a well-fortified position GÇó a projecting part of a fortification GÇó a stronghold into which people could go for shelter during a battle
Suggestion for skill name - "Redoubt" or "Garrison". Bastion works as originally proposed with one key difference: it absorbs ALL incoming fire within a 2.5km radius during its cycle. Thus, it actually functions as its name implies: a stronghold where sub capital ships can temporarily seek a reprieve. It's also unique from Siege or Triage, and might provide an interesting gameplay element. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:41:00 -
[446] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat
its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:41:00 -
[447] - Quote
I'm not really sure a further increase to tractor-beam range is needed since the MJD can just 100km and a T2 tractor-beam goes to 48km when boosted by 100%, meaning you can get within tractor beam range of things easily. That said I don't think increasing this to 150 or 200% would break anything. Tractor-Beams aren't exactly PvP modules.
The Paladin should probably keep its cap bonus since it's already running a half rack of guns with some of the highest Battleship level cap recharge in the game. More than that anything that you could replace it with would likely end up worse or over the top. The first thing that comes to mind is a web-range or Target Painter Effectiveness bonus. The web-range bonus would step on the toes of the Bhaalgorn and the TP bonus wouldn't be worth as much as the cap bonus is.
I think more than anything I'd like to see these ships get some of their drone-bay back. Not the drone control, but the drone-bay so that they can more easily replace damaged or destroyed drones in missions and make use of their ability to field medium drones without hurting their ability vs frigates.
Also would a respectable bonus to Scan Res be out of the question for Bastion, or would that be too many buffs?
I stand by this requiring a lot of testing in real world situations to get a full measure of. |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:42:00 -
[448] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction. Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps. And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..  Other than that.. AWESOME!
I definitely agree with Sarmatiko's statement, and to some extent, I feel like the proposed reductions to mobility will overly restrict the ships.
I do have to say, these look like some great changes that will drastically change the demand for these ships. My Vindicator was in someways better than my Kronos. Keep in mind a brand new character could sit in a Vindicator in about a week versus approximately 115 days to sit in a Kronos. It's about time all those extra 'necessary' skills paid off.
I CAN'T WAIT TO TEST THESE CHANGES ON THE TEST SERVER.
THANK YOU CCP =] |

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
550
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:46:00 -
[449] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Forget my other ideas - I just had a wild and crazy one...
bas-+tion GÇó a well-fortified position GÇó a projecting part of a fortification GÇó a stronghold into which people could go for shelter during a battle
Suggestion for skill name - "Redoubt" or "Garrison". Bastion works as originally proposed with one key difference: it absorbs ALL incoming fire within a 2.5km radius during its cycle. Thus, it actually functions as its name implies: a stronghold where sub capital ships can temporarily seek a reprieve.
an immunity timer for damage would make the module more attractive. I can see Marauder becoming a hot drop special. You can say what you want about hot drops in EVE but ships are all about their niche. That would put it on front lines and with a very defined role. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:46:00 -
[450] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s
2 slot tank (3 slots if you count the bastion mod), immune to ewar, so much room for damage mods. seems pretty damn good to me. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:46:00 -
[451] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Forget my other ideas - I just had a wild and crazy one...
bas-+tion GÇó a well-fortified position GÇó a projecting part of a fortification GÇó a stronghold into which people could go for shelter during a battle
Suggestion for skill name - "Redoubt" or "Garrison". Bastion works as originally proposed with one key difference: it absorbs ALL incoming fire within a 2.5km radius during its cycle. Thus, it actually functions as its name implies: a stronghold where sub capital ships can temporarily seek a reprieve. It's also unique from Siege or Triage, and might provide an interesting gameplay element.
A Portable PoS! I still think that it would be better as a Command Battleship--give it a Ship Maintenance bay too! The "Bastion" shield though, I think should expand more then 2.5k based on some skill... or better yet, the bastion "field" could be an armor or shield thing... not just a shield ...
We could fuel it with Strontium Clathrates. :)
I think we have taken this particular concept /way/ into absurdity now, though. I think some thought should be done on CCP's part.... Lock the thread, go back to the drawing board... and start over with the basic concepts, but cleary distinguishing the idea of being a "Brick and Space" and a "Harassment Marauder".
Two completely different ideas--that they are trying to fuse into one. |
|

ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
199

|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:48:00 -
[452] - Quote
Removed a couple of off topic posts. ISD Cura Ursus Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
33
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:50:00 -
[453] - Quote
Javon Bars wrote:Why would anyone possibly enter bastion for gang pvp?
The tanking bonus prevents you from receiving reps, effectively nerfing your tank. You don't get a damage bonus and the optimal range bonus is pointless because currently large long-range weapon systems already provide all the range you'll ever need. EW immunity is pointless because you're going to be out of EW range. There is no reason at all to enter bastion as it is.
Unless it gives a significant damage bonus, you're just painting yourself a large bullseye and waiting to die, particularly because both scanning and even a dictor burning will cover the distance in less than the 60 seconds bastion takes.
Also: please, please stop bringing out new skills which only apply to one single module and nothing else. It makes a mockery out of the versatility the skill system the game has. Tactical weapon reconfiguration already covers this scenario. "But TWR lowers consumption and bastion consumes nothing!" isn't a viable excuse because covert jump bridges also consume nothing despite needing a skill that reduces consumption trained.
Sure, bastion seems nice for running plexes and anoms but don't try to sell it to us as some sort of pvp feature, at least with this iteration.
Why would anyone use a marauder for pvp? Why would you waste isk on that when you can just get a faction BC for roughly the same price and significantly better usage?
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:50:00 -
[454] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s You're missing the part where it has 25-30% farther effective range, is immune to NPC EWAR and much of it's tank is now inherent to the Bastion module, freeing up a low/mid slot for targeting/damage mods. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:50:00 -
[455] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s 2 slot tank (3 slots if you count the bastion mod), immune to ewar, so much room for damage mods. seems pretty damn good to me.
immune to eware, till you get out of bastion, when you want to i dont know, warp out, but are now scrambled and cant use MJD. So nerfed tank when not in bastion - decent tank when in bastion and therefore higher damage due to fitting....but we will have to see if that increased damage from fitting compares to the old version of say, vargur, or pirate BSs. I dont think it will be worth it. Certainly not just because of the inconvenience of the way you have to fly with bastion, but thats just taste. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:53:00 -
[456] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s You're missing the part where it has 25-30% farther effective range, is immune to NPC EWAR and much of it's tank is now inherent to the Bastion module, freeing up a low/mid slot for targeting/damage mods.
range is just a part of calculating effective dps, especially for L4s - i could fit a ship to have a certain dps, then simply move myself into position to do that dps effectively higher than having a longer range.
I could see the vargur being a lot better in missions if all they did was maybe add a lowslot and increased PG, then its falloff would be great for 800mm for effective damage in missions, but i could always just grab a tachyon ship and obliterate anything in any effective range without moving anyway |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2626
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:54:00 -
[457] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Will the Bastion module be high slot? Or are we going to see a clear bias against shield or armour fleets when it turns out to be a mid or low slot?
Did you not read the OP? Especially the part about how marauders will all have 8 highs on account of the bastion module?
|

Ariak Rykard
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:54:00 -
[458] - Quote
Given the ridiculous amount of training required to fly one of these ships, one expects it to be at least 3x better than even pirate faction.
Either that, or take off 90% off the training requirements. -á-á-á ¦+ ¦+¦+¦+¦+'¦+'\¦+¦+¦¦-ç\==((GÇó¦¬GùÅ))==/¦+¦+¦¦-ç/'¦+¦+ ¦+ ¦+ b(",b) ob(-.0)do (d.")d |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:54:00 -
[459] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s You're missing the part where it has 25-30% farther effective range, is immune to NPC EWAR and much of it's tank is now inherent to the Bastion module, freeing up a low/mid slot for targeting/damage mods.
I think the point was that the Marauder would effectively be replaced by Pirate Battleships for DPS.
The Marauder would effectively be primarily used as a "brick" in space, with some support DPS.
It appears that Pirate ships are slated to be the primary source of DPS in LVL IVs...
Incursions, though, would benefit from the sniping and local tank capabilities of the Bastion Mode.
But again, this is /completely contradictory to the concept of "Hit and Run Harassment" goal stated for the Marauders/. Two completely mutually exclusive ideas... -- unless you remove the local tank bonuses, and decrease the time it takes to get in and out of siege mode... -- essentially making a battleship version of a hit and run stealth bomber. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:57:00 -
[460] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s You're missing the part where it has 25-30% farther effective range, is immune to NPC EWAR and much of it's tank is now inherent to the Bastion module, freeing up a low/mid slot for targeting/damage mods. I think the point was that the Marauder would effectively be replaced by Pirate Battleships for DPS. The Marauder would effectively be primarily used as a "brick" in space, with some support DPS. It appears that Pirate ships are slated to be the primary source of DPS in LVL IVs... Incursions, though, would benefit from the sniping and local tank capabilities of the Bastion Mode. But again, this is / completely contradictory to the concept of "Hit and Run Harassment" goal stated for the Marauders/. Two completely mutually exclusive ideas... -- unless you remove the local tank bonuses, and decrease the time it takes to get in and out of siege mode... -- essentially making a battleship version of a hit and run stealth bomber.
you dont local tank incursions, and we already have ships that have sniping range necessary in incursions, in fact most incurison communities are moving away from sniping fits and into projected dps (like sub80km) and simply moving into position, the effective damage is much higher than using normal snipers. So it def it not a good ship for incursions |
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:57:00 -
[461] - Quote
The Standard Question: "If you can fly it now, will you be able to fly it later?"
Assuming the answer is, "Yes" ...
Will this new "Bastion" / "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" skill now be required for Marauders. If so, what level?
And, if we can already fly Marauders, will we be credited this skill? I would like this formally stated in the O.P. if possible to avoid this question being asked in Help over and Over again without an actual reference to provide.
Thanks! |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:59:00 -
[462] - Quote
Ariak Rykard wrote:Given the ridiculous amount of training required to fly one of these ships, one expects it to be at least 3x better than even pirate faction.
Either that, or take off 90% off the training requirements.
a ship with high isk requirements should be good at something a ship with high sp requirements should be good at something a ship with high isk AND sp requirements, should be REALLY ******* GOOD at something
... yeah i am in favor of it simply being better than pirate, or at least having a REAL seige mode with huge damage bonus....
... it needs to be REALLY good in order to Justify both costs |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:00:00 -
[463] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s You're missing the part where it has 25-30% farther effective range, is immune to NPC EWAR and much of it's tank is now inherent to the Bastion module, freeing up a low/mid slot for targeting/damage mods. I think the point was that the Marauder would effectively be replaced by Pirate Battleships for DPS. The Marauder would effectively be primarily used as a "brick" in space, with some support DPS. It appears that Pirate ships are slated to be the primary source of DPS in LVL IVs.... Please explain that to me in more detail.
Right now, using the Nightmare and Paladin as an example, the Nightmare has more applied DPS because of it's tracking bonus. However theoretical DPS of both ships is the same.
That isn't going to change. And now the Paladin will be immune to EWAR, vastly raising it's DPS over the Nightmare in certain missions- as well as making every mission feasible to run (I am looking at you, perma-jamming Gurista bastards.) The Paladin will now have unquestionably better range as well, not to mention that it will be indestructible to all but a large, expensive suicide gank squad. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
33
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:03:00 -
[464] - Quote
-1 for rebalance because : 1) every 1 got rid from ewar only golem have one . just waste of med slot. on roams we have matar recons with TP and what CCP Ytterbium achieved that we have not just useless but contradictory bonus on fights that he was mentioned. just add another sig speed or radius bonus istead (or maybe resists and make it second damnation ) 2) range bonus for missiles , let's see... it's fine if u use torps and total overkill for cruise. but why use torp ? please tell me who uses torp fits now ? so we have useless bonus or this is supposed hidden hint to torp rebalance ?
btw : yay for steamrollin' guris ! Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1986
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:05:00 -
[465] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:Bienator II wrote:here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? I don't know about you, but as operator of help channel with 800+ players at prime, everyday I see recommendations to get a Tengu, Nightmare and Machariel for PVE. Any argument in defense of Marauders breaks against arrogant public opinion "Marauders are not worth invested training time, just get a Pirate BS or CNR". Now this will change. and thats better in your opinion? Replace x ships with 4? eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:07:00 -
[466] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:A Portable PoS! I still think that it would be better as a Command Battleship--give it a Ship Maintenance bay too! The "Bastion" shield though, I think should expand more then 2.5k based on some skill... or better yet, the bastion "field" could be an armor or shield thing... not just a shield ...
We could fuel it with Strontium Clathrates. :)
I think we have taken this particular concept /way/ into absurdity now, though. I think some thought should be done on CCP's part.... Lock the thread, go back to the drawing board... and start over with the basic concepts, but cleary distinguishing the idea of being a "Brick and Space" and a "Harassment Marauder".
I was just thinking more along the line of the actual definition, which is an extended fortification. The idea was it would temporarily divert and absorb all incoming fire to shields, armor and hull. So it could act as a temporary reprieve for other ships to rearm, repair or retreat.
I was thinking heavy water, but Strontium Clathrates could work too. :D |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:13:00 -
[467] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: Please explain that to me in more detail.
Right now, using the Nightmare and Paladin as an example, the Nightmare has more applied DPS because of it's tracking bonus. However theoretical DPS of both ships is the same.
That isn't going to change. And now the Paladin will be immune to EWAR, vastly raising it's DPS over the Nightmare in certain missions- as well as making every mission feasible to run (I am looking at you, perma-jamming Gurista bastards.) The Paladin will now have unquestionably better range as well, not to mention that it will be indestructible to all but a large, expensive suicide gank squad.
i def see the higher dps for when there is ewar, personally i see this as a situation where flying with 2 poeple in a mission (or dualboxing) is awesome. and if you have to go solo, then yeah it helps....but there are very few missions where this is a problem in my experience. Range though, if you are running tachyons you will still be in effective range regardless, i think my nightmare does multi at like up to 50 (like opt+1/2falloff is like 85% damage) so unless there are a significant number of npcs slightly further then this range, then yeah the marauder would have much more effective damage....but if its significantly further then you are just switching ammo to lower damage longer range like usual, and not as much of a boost in my oppinion
and also the marauder wont be able to move during this time..... and when it is moving (not via mjd) it will be VERY slow, so moving into effective range will be difficult and the slowness of this will reduce effective dps |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4033
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:14:00 -
[468] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Will the Bastion module be high slot? Or are we going to see a clear bias against shield or armour fleets when it turns out to be a mid or low slot?
Did you not read the OP? Especially the part about how marauders will all have 8 highs on account of the bastion module?
Thank you for your polite and reasonable response :P Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1172
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:14:00 -
[469] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
Looks like other people have beaten me to the post on hammering your logic. I really question if you have tested this much at all.
First off, as others have said, the 90% web bonus DOES allow you to nail frigs close. Two webs, and they are doing 1.3% of their top speed. In a mission, the elite frigs will trash small drones in seconds (thanks Fozzie for that one), so you NEED webs to ensure the guns can nail the elite frigs
Second, wrecking the drone bay is simply dumb. People use that for Sentry DPS, or salvage drones. Why are you gimping the effective DPS on these ships? And please don't talk to me about how the improved range on guns will improve effective DPS. On long range stuff, sure. But try running Buzzkill, or the 2nd room of Worlds Collide, where stuff is ON TOP of you, when you land.
As for the other issues, I am too tired to deal with it tonight. Suffice to say, you are gimping the effective damage on these ships, which is just ridiculous.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1997
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:16:00 -
[470] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:The Standard Question: "If you can fly it now, will you be able to fly it later?"
Assuming the answer is, "Yes" ...
Will this new "Bastion" / "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" skill now be required for Marauders. If so, what level?
And, if we can already fly Marauders, will we be credited this skill? I would like this formally stated in the O.P. if possible to avoid this question being asked in Help over and Over again without an actual reference to provide.
Thanks!
CCP doesn't gift you free skills when they add them. CCP has also said nothing about making the new skill a requirement to fly the ship. It's required to use the module, but not the ship.
Even if it is added as a requirement for flying a Marauder, you will probably NOT get the required skill levels credited when it hits. You would STILL be able to actually fly the Marauder, as it is not the final required skill to fly it - which is called "Marauders". As long as you already have Marauders level 1 trained, you can still fly it.
See the recent skill changes to which you refer for evidence. Changes were made to carrier requirements, but as long as people had the racial carrier skill trained to 1 (same as before), they could still fly them afterwards without the changed support skills being at the correct level.
CCP will likely not answer your question, so you'll just have to make do with another player answering it. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:18:00 -
[471] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: Please explain that to me in more detail.
Right now, using the Nightmare and Paladin as an example, the Nightmare has more applied DPS because of it's tracking bonus. However theoretical DPS of both ships is the same.
That isn't going to change. And now the Paladin will be immune to EWAR, vastly raising it's DPS over the Nightmare in certain missions- as well as making every mission feasible to run (I am looking at you, perma-jamming Gurista bastards.) The Paladin will now have unquestionably better range as well, not to mention that it will be indestructible to all but a large, expensive suicide gank squad.
In an earlier comment, the Pirate ship rebalance was mentioned. It isn't necessarily a comparison to what the pirate ships are now, but what they WILL be.
And it seemed as though CCP wants to focus on their DPS application, and perhaps more of a PVP role...
I am hoping someday ... just maybe ... That there will be pirate faction warfare in null sec. And these ships, with pirate Battlecruisers, would be used there a lot! When there is pirate faction warfare in null sec, I will be there all the the time!
No, I don't have any actual references to CCP's stated goals for the Pirate Faction Battleships ... Just hear-say on my part... But I will keep looking. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:23:00 -
[472] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:-1 for rebalance because : 1) every 1 got rid from ewar only golem have one . just waste of med slot. on roams we have matar recons with TP and what CCP Ytterbium achieved that we have not just useless but contradictory bonus on fights that he was mentioned. just add another sig speed or radius bonus istead (or maybe resists and make it second damnation  ) 2) range bonus for missiles , let's see... it's fine if u use torps and total overkill for cruise. but why use torp ? please tell me who uses torp fits now ? so we have useless bonus or this is supposed hidden hint to torp rebalance ? btw : yay for steamrollin' guris !
1. more room for webs on the minny recons, +60% painters are nice
2. I think missile velocity is a pretty interesting bonus. plus faster missiles -> a smaller delay on getting damage on target. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
538
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:26:00 -
[473] - Quote
Golom fix seems about right - it's biggest problem is PG - making it useless at the moment.
The PG buff is the right step forward.
Can you start calling the expansions etc by months and not seasons? It is kinda stupid when this is an international community and it will be summer for 1/2 of the planet.
If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Now don't judge or question. You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do. (Opiate - Tool) |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:29:00 -
[474] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote: Thanks!
CCP doesn't gift you free skills when they add them. CCP has also said nothing about making the new skill a requirement to fly the ship. It's required to use the module, but not the ship.
Even if it is added as a requirement for flying a Marauder, you will probably NOT get the required skill levels credited when it hits. You would STILL be able to actually fly the Marauder, as it is not the final required skill to fly it - which is called "Marauders". As long as you already have Marauders level 1 trained, you can still fly it.
See the recent skill changes to which you refer for evidence. Changes were made to carrier requirements, but as long as people had the racial carrier skill trained to 1 (same as before), they could still fly them afterwards without the changed support skills being at the correct level.
CCP will likely not answer your question, so you'll just have to make do with another player answering it.[/quote]
Thanks!
In substance, I agree with your answer. I think it would be consistent with the past. But there was SO much confusion, and so many repeat questions in-game about these exact issues in previous patches ... I just want to make it clear from the beginning this time.
However, CCP HAS gifted free SP, (not necessarily skills) in the past, (Like with the recent Battlecruiser skill changes.)
They may have decided to change this up a bit... I don't know.
But assuming an answer is true, does not imply it is official... Just wanted it to be stated, because people will want to know for CERTAIN. Hear-say, and making assumptions based on the past, are never a valid source for truth--especially in the Eve universe. :p |

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
828
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:31:00 -
[475] - Quote
I think this is a strong and interesting idea and I give you guys full props for its invention.
I do think it's a tad shy on the true efficacy bonuses though. Maybe I'm wrong and the tank bonus is enough, but I can't help but feel that it would be a lot more useful with some additional protection. As it is you will inevitably be caught out at some point and you will be neuted dry in no time at all. Something like a 50% reduction in energy warfare (neuts and NOS) would do wonders to ameliorate this.
It's a thought. Maybe not what you are looking for in the design, but I personally think it would be a good addition. Perhaps also something along the lines of a small DPS bonus as well / instead, but we don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3305
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:34:00 -
[476] - Quote
This is a very nice idea and I love that you came up with new stuff!
The only threat to the blink -> bastion idea is on-grid probing. Without that, you could hope deal with approaching tackle with your amazing dps projection, but when it warps at 0 on you, you are hosed.
However, the tank in bastion means the opposing gang needs really serious numbers to break you.
Of course, a small gang of marauders will tear tackle off each others, as they are completely free from formation, being independent operators. Picture held by a slaved, dual plate Proteus which is surrounded by 6 Kronoses, 50km apart, and each one has you in Null optimal. With Talos tracking.
Moridin Mandarb wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote: To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war. But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has. In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps.
40 battleships is not PVP, it's blobbing, and only very few players in this game cares what happens in those- it's not interesting no matter which ship you are sitting in.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
572
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:34:00 -
[477] - Quote
Shiganaru wrote:My 2 cents:
Basically Dreadnaughts use the advanced reconfiguration skill, while marauders use the normal. Require "Tactical Reconfiguration IV" to train "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration".
The non-advanced skill could also give dreads weapon bonuses, so dreads could fit a bit more tank instead of a bunch of weapons mods. (just a thought)
Please just stop... You obviously do not know how to fit a Dread or use one so don't even hint at another skill to be training on Dreads... Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at hoistthecolors.org |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:40:00 -
[478] - Quote
Tzel Mayon wrote:To answer the questions why I believe Marauders, (and what CCP has already stated), should be optimized for Hit and Run Raider/Marauder tactics: In short, create frigate synergy with Marauders. This accomplishes CCP's goal in nearly every way, AND fulfills a LOT of CCP's other goals. Remove the tank bonuses of siege mode altogether--this contradicts the "hit and run" philosophy. Make getting into and out of Siege mode faster. Make transitioning a disruptable action. Siege mode should give DPS and Range, or Tracking Bonuses, Explosion Radius bonuses, Falloff, etc. "Hit AND RUN" = Harassment Marauder.
Give Marauders short range Micro-Jump-Portal Generators, with Cyno Painters, to get Frigates/Destroyers to the front lines instantly, or give them Frigate/Destroyer MWD Fleet Bonuses --- ANYTHING to get frigates engaged with battleships without being vaporized in the process, (an MWD Sig Reduction Fleet bonus perhaps. but that would make cruisers have a decided disadvantage over frigates.)
So, you mean like Assault Frigates? 50% reduction in radius right there.
Or there's the whole warp in on top of them thing, but you'd still have problems with drones or smart-bombs in large fleets.
This is not a viable tactic. There are plenty of ways for frigates to engage battleships in small groups, in large groups they have far more ways to counter you, including just bringing cruiser support.
Tzel Mayon wrote:Frigates wouldn't die faster in Incursions if they got to the front lines instantaneously. Besides, the concept is to increase the "depth" of Eve Online, to utilize more fleet tactics, to try to get every role engaged if possible. Where there are frigates, there can be destroyers, where there are destroyers, cruisers, etc.
Electronic Attack Frigates in incursions, faction warfare, and massive null sec fights would be really fun. But, more to my original point: Marauders having awesome synergy with frigates would incentivize null sec corps to bring a LOT more frigates to their conflicts!
Frigates already have a role as tackle and light DPS and do, in-fact, show up in fleet fights. If you didn't know Null-sec actually went through a Frigates phase ages back. The problem with bringing lots of frigates is that they don't do much DPS and can be easily shot and killed if you know how to deal with them, either with smartbombs, webs, any sort of cruiser weapons with tracking, drones, and the list goes on.
More to the point you are trying to shoe-horn a synergy into the game when synergy is something that should be created by the players, not enforced by CCP.
Tzel Mayon wrote:1. Acceleration gates are often problematic for probes in both faction warfare plexes, and incursions. Warping to targets on the other side is well, difficult(?) :p , which makes buzzards, et al, very difficult to use in this cotext.
2. Probing down targets in an incursion is time dependent, whereas a jump-portal-generator and painter are /tactical/ solutions that can be used for on-grid targets that don't need to be probed down.
Faction Warfare already has plenty of content for frigates, no problems there. Also combat rarely happens inside either FWar plexes or Incursions at ranges where a jump portal would be more practical than simply having the frigates MWD to the target.
Tzel Mayon wrote:Wha??? I wish that were true! But why narrow this down to assault frigates? I was actually thinking Electronic Warfare Frigates, tbh. frigate on frigate/destroyer/cruiser logistics, Interdictors, destroyers, etc.
When I started playing Eve, I NEVER wanted to fly battleships, /perhaps/ a command ship.... But All I wanted was to be an awesome frigate pilot.
... Until I found out I /had/ to specialize in battleships for Level IV missions to make enough ISK to pay for my addiction to getting blown up in my frigates. :)
As a frigate pilot, I want /way/ more opportunities for employment... I want there to be a a GOOD reason to bring frigates to a massive battleship, and especially capital ship fights.... Marauders with synergy bonuses with frigates accomplish this! This adds a great depth to game mechanics in pretty much every area of the game. (Okay, perhaps not mining, or exploration, or shipping, or ..) :p
Then you should be happy for the Command Ship changes since Command Ships are more viable than ever for frigates.
Also you can make a decent chunk of ISK doing high and low-sec complexes and scan-sites in a frigate.
I'm sorry someone misinformed you about your ability to make ISK in smaller ships but those opportunities do exist. CCP should not be shoe-horning in features to support a play-style.
Tzel Mayon wrote:This is /complete/ crap.
ISK acquisition in Eve, (explicitly stated /many/ times by CCP, and others), is about the cooperation and exploitation of allies. This is how brand new pilots can actually make decent ISK in faction warfare. "Join a corp to make ISK! But trust no one!"
NONE of my recommendations about the new Marauders having Synergy with Frigates to have awesome hit and run mechanics in Eve had ANYTHING to do with making ISK. It was just to make the game /funner/ to play, and more ENJOYABLE for new players.
(Not everyone plays for the ISK.)
A "Siege Mode" Marauder is self-contradicting to the idea of "Harassment and Raiding and Marauding" if that Siege mode gives bonuses to Tank, but not so much to DPS and Range.
First off, working with allies qualifies as effort. Maybe I should have been more specific but generally organizing people, grouping up, and working toward a common goal takes effort.
Second, your idea has absolutely no basis in any sort of live gameplay. You've created this vision in your head of how this is going to work with nothing to back it up. |

Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:43:00 -
[479] - Quote
SIR PRIME wrote:Unless I'm missing something won't it basically allow you to solo kill any high sec pos?
SNIFF-SNIFF.... Do I smell a POS revamp on the wind?  The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it |

Aus Unit727
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:43:00 -
[480] - Quote
Pretty sure some one would have said it but . They wont work in any decent fleet. you took away the 90% web which was nearly the best PVP think it had going for it. While I love the immunity to EWAR with out the web and the stationany area part you wont be able to kill any think. and if there going to be these active tanked gods you seem to want them to be change one hi slot or a mid on the paladin / kronos so they can do dual cap booster scram web and MJD. |
|

Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
148
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:45:00 -
[481] - Quote
Roime wrote:This is a very nice idea and I love that you came up with new stuff! The only threat to the blink -> bastion idea is on-grid probing. Without that, you could hope deal with approaching tackle with your amazing dps projection, but when it warps at 0 on you, you are hosed. However, the tank in bastion means the opposing gang needs really serious numbers to break you. Of course, a small gang of marauders will tear tackle off each others, as they are completely free from formation, being independent operators. Picture held by a slaved, dual plate Proteus which is surrounded by 6 Kronoses, 50km apart, and each one has you in Null optimal. With Talos tracking. Moridin Mandarb wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote: To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war. But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has. In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps. 40 battleships is not PVP, it's blobbing, and only very few players in this game cares what happens in those- it's not interesting no matter which ship you are sitting in.
"Blobbing" is pvp. |

Aus Unit727
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:46:00 -
[482] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s
Higher tank equal's more damage mods and damage applaction mods high run time please unstuipd yourself. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:53:00 -
[483] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.
On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to. |

Sturmwolke
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:55:00 -
[484] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: PALADIN
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
KRONOS (Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
You know that this will massively boost the desirability for the Vindicator (a pirate BS) yes? The only remaining battleship with a 90% web.
You don't see anything wrong with that? |

Old Man Sam
Fishy Old Men in Space
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:56:00 -
[485] - Quote
I dont really like the new changes, I feel its to close to what already exists. Why not try something new?
Why not have 2 modes for the ship: Speed mode(normal mode), and attack mode(bastion mod active). In speed mode, the ship is like the interceptor of battle ships, capable of hitting cruser speeds using a microwarp drive. In speed mode, it also enjoys reduced cap usage on MWD, and faster usage of MJD mods. It also has laughable resists, and no bonuses to weapons, nor repair. For laughs, they could all have a 200m3 (or so) drone bay, and 25mb drone control (50 for gallenti?)
Then, the bread and butter: attack mode. Costing the ability to activate MWD's, (and possibly MJD, else long cool down time) most of its speed (we talking half the speed of a normal battle ship, or even a quarter) for the resists of a tech 2 ship (possibly slightly less, due to its lack of specialization?) and a bonus to armor/shield repair/regen amount. Missile ships would see better missile damage, and speed. Gun ships would see better tracking, fall off and optimal, and a bit of damage. Drone control would also go up in this mode, possibly much more for gallenti, possibly not. And since we want local tank so badly, no RR fo you!
The bastion module its self would be almost required on the vessel, as it would be very fragile without the module active. Giving the ship the ability to warp in attack mode, and switch between the 2 modes on the fly (like a covert ops cloak, giving it a five second activation time, and 5 second cool down) would make the vessel very swift on its feet. weapons timer would not be needed, given the changes to the whole design.
Im really just throwing ideas to the wind here, but I really dont like the ideas of the ship currently on the table. being fully unable to move for 75 seconds? (one does not simply train to V) sacrificing your ability to tank in order to move in jilted jumps? It feels like an awkward ship to fly.
(if this is for some reason a double post, forgive me.) |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:01:00 -
[486] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:teehee, getting people to turn their safeties off! that should be fun.
and that certainly seems like a lot of blaster range, does the stacking penalty apply to the optimal/falloff bonus? or was that falloff within 55-60km, as in ~20km and then 35-40km or so of falloff? oh right falloff bonus (useless imo, as you probably want rails)
I think the kronos could probably use a bit more damage, the ability to use 3x sentry drones with its rails brought it up in dps to be nearly competitive with other marauders. although I will probably be able to throw a t2 damage rig on the paladin too. and with the range bonus on the paladin wow! A 3 damage mod, t2 rof rig, and 3 sentry drone kronos does about the same damage as a 3 damage mod with 2 sentry drone paladin. with the changes I'll probably have both with 4 damage mods and t2 rof rigs. oh yes and that was in EFT without reload time.... with reload time the kronos just looks sad.
so with reload time, 4 faction damage mods, t2 rof rigs, 5% damage implants, no drones, and close range faction ammo, I present tachys vs 425mm railguns! kronos: 982 dps (without reload time 1007 dps), aw shucks, lets try null 1166 dps/1185 dps reload time isn't so bad with blasters, and for epeen numbers void! 1633/1658 paladin: 1146 dps (1354 with conflag and 967 with scorch) varg: 1165 with its close range ammo and 800s
425s and tachys have fairly similar stats (well except for damage) on a mission boat. I don't know if the ability to switch to blasters makes up for it. Null just slightly out damages a tach paladin, and well has nowhere near the range. especially vs a what 60-70km optimal tach paladin with the change? and if we are admitting the web bonus is useless for most missions well that just takes any other advantage blasters could possibly have (outside of a very small number of missions)
as a railboat the kronos just comes up short. and well as an immobile blaster boat... well "immobile blaster boat"
I'm really failing to see the problem here. The Kronos is going to have some of the best damage projection to 100 meters out of all of these ships. The Vargur is going to have to suffer through low Arty DPS and fire-rate, the Paladin is probably its best competition with Beam Lasers and that optimal bonus but the Kronos should still do pretty well. No clue how the Golem is going to do but probably not bad if it can chuck Torps out to 100, it won't be able to alpha frigates though which will cut down on completion times.
Second with the exception of lasers Hybrids have the fastest reload times so they should be taking less of a DPS hit than any other weapon.
I'd prefer to see the Kronos get a range bonus for Hybrids but that's also sort of a Caldari thing so... meh? I for one am fine with jumping into the enemy Battleships in a mission rather than away and then anchoring for hilarious tracking and tank. Add on the increased tracking and there shouldn't be much of a problem. |

Ariak Rykard
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:02:00 -
[487] - Quote
Old Man Sam wrote:I dont really like the new changes, I feel its to close to what already exists. Why not try something new?
Why not have 2 modes for the ship: Speed mode(normal mode), and attack mode(bastion mod active). In speed mode, the ship is like the interceptor of battle ships, capable of hitting cruser speeds using a microwarp drive. In speed mode, it also enjoys reduced cap usage on MWD, and faster usage of MJD mods. It also has laughable resists, and no bonuses to weapons, nor repair. For laughs, they could all have a 200m3 (or so) drone bay, and 25mb drone control (50 for gallenti?)
Then, the bread and butter: attack mode. Costing the ability to activate MWD's, (and possibly MJD, else long cool down time) most of its speed (we talking half the speed of a normal battle ship, or even a quarter) for the resists of a tech 2 ship (possibly slightly less, due to its lack of specialization?) and a bonus to armor/shield repair/regen amount. Missile ships would see better missile damage, and speed. Gun ships would see better tracking, fall off and optimal, and a bit of damage. Drone control would also go up in this mode, possibly much more for gallenti, possibly not. And since we want local tank so badly, no RR fo you!
The bastion module its self would be almost required on the vessel, as it would be very fragile without the module active. Giving the ship the ability to warp in attack mode, and switch between the 2 modes on the fly (like a covert ops cloak, giving it a five second activation time, and 5 second cool down) would make the vessel very swift on its feet. weapons timer would not be needed, given the changes to the whole design.
Im really just throwing ideas to the wind here, but I really dont like the ideas of the ship currently on the table. being fully unable to move for 75 seconds? (one does not simply train to V) sacrificing your ability to tank in order to move in jilted jumps? It feels like an awkward ship to fly.
(if this is for some reason a double post, forgive me.)
WAY better proposal. While you're at it, throw in Battloid mode. Transformers in space, Robotech-style mechamorphosis. FULL OF WIN -á-á-á ¦+ ¦+¦+¦+¦+'¦+'\¦+¦+¦¦-ç\==((GÇó¦¬GùÅ))==/¦+¦+¦¦-ç/'¦+¦+ ¦+ ¦+ b(",b) ob(-.0)do (d.")d |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
335
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:07:00 -
[488] - Quote
Aus Unit727 wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:... its not good in L4s... Wat its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s Higher tank equal's more damage mods and damage applaction mods high run time please unstuipd yourself.
How many more damage mods can you fit on a mission ship?
Most level 4 mission runner ships I've seen have 4 damage mods and 2 or 3 range/application mods. With stacking penalties you're not going to get much more out of a focused level 4 runner even if you had another slot. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
33
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:10:00 -
[489] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: 1. more room for webs on the minny recons, +60% painters are nice
2. I think missile velocity is a pretty interesting bonus. plus faster missiles -> a smaller delay on getting damage on target.
1 on small ganks 1-2 recons are fine 2 it's interesting bonus only for torps for cruise with skills at 4 shortest one are precision at 94km with lock range at 93. with bastion module i'd fit SensBooster for max range instead of TP Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4037
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:16:00 -
[490] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:How many more damage mods can you fit on a mission ship?
Most level 4 mission runner ships I've seen have 4 damage mods and 2 or 3 range/application mods. With stacking penalties you're not going to get much more out of a focused level 4 runner even if you had another slot.
Swap Tracking Computer for Tracking Enhancer, fit TP to the now empty midslot.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
|

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:28:00 -
[491] - Quote
alot of people will still do missions in their domis or nightmares, why?
because bastion mode doesn't make running missions faster. It allows to tank more, but missions already can be tanked in mjd domis, machs and nightmares.
It's a gimmick idea without any direction. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4037
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:31:00 -
[492] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:How many more damage mods can you fit on a mission ship?
Most level 4 mission runner ships I've seen have 4 damage mods and 2 or 3 range/application mods. With stacking penalties you're not going to get much more out of a focused level 4 runner even if you had another slot.
Swap Tracking Computer for Tracking Enhancer, fit TP to the now empty midslot (remembering TP have their cycle time reduced! Yay!). Now you have more DPS against small targets. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:35:00 -
[493] - Quote
I don't post much but this time I feel I must.
The Kronos is a good ship. It does exactly what its meant to filling its unique roll well. The only problem with it currently (on TQ now) is the very low sensor strength. For an 800 million isk ship which is supposed to be advanced. It should have a strong sensor strength like most other, if not all, T2 ships.
The 10% bonus to webifiers is one of the most appealing special bonuses on this ship. It actually allows it to fend off smaller faster ships that get too close. With out the webifier bonus the Kronos will be less effective.
Gallente ships are drone ships by nature even if this one isn't specialized in drone usage. Having the extra drone space and bandwidth seems logical and is very useful.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why you want to reduce armor hit points by 100. It isn't a big deal reallyGǪ just mind boggling. Increasing the hull hit points is pretty much pointless there is no hull tanking in EVE. At most with a damage control fitted you are basically allowing the ship to survive 1 or 2 more volleys something like 5-10 seconds . If you want to "balance" the Gallente ships give them more armor hit points and less hull hit points.
In regards to velocity, I don't understand why in new Eden you'd want to make the ship slower. Gallente ships are drone/blaster type ships which require mobility. A ~25% reduction in speed is painful.
As for some of the other changes I've never had any issues fitting the Kronos and with good skills it has a strong cap. The micro jump drive seems interesting though I don't have a strong reason to use it. But, lets not kid, the ship as it is does what its supposed to and really isn't in need of these sizeable changes(nerf).
CCP might as well make a whole new battleship for the Bastion mechanism. It would be preferable to me. The Bastion mode is a niche ability based heavily on tanking. If it was a massive damage boost it would make more sense to me. Giving its extra optimal + falloff just makes it a sniper type shipGǪ I guess.
In conclusion I strongly disagree with the changes to webifiers, drone bay/bandwidth, hit points, and velocity. I am begging you(CCP). Please leave these things alone. If other marauders need some help then by all means.
|

Oberus MacKenzie
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:46:00 -
[494] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:You know that this will massively boost the desirability for the Vindicator (a pirate BS) yes? The only remaining battleship with a 90% web.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
This ^
Also, please fix the sensor strength. It is the most stupid and contrived weakness ever and doesn't make sense in relation to the ship's stated purpose. What self respecting starship company would design a battleship with advanced weapons, propulsion systems and damage defenses, but fill the electronics suite with a bunch of f***ing tater tots? Answer: NONE Fix it. |

Shiganaru
Ignis Aeternus Imperium
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:47:00 -
[495] - Quote
Robert Harrison wrote: No... Just no...
Tara Read wrote: Please just stop... You obviously do not know how to fit a Dread or use one so don't even hint at another skill to be training on Dreads...
Yes. . Yes I do, and have used one for years. It would need to balanced of course, but it was an alternative thought to the skill issue and a way to tie it into existing skills. (One post in years, and I get that reaction psh.)
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:52:00 -
[496] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:You know that this will massively boost the desirability for the Vindicator (a pirate BS) yes? The only remaining battleship with a 90% web.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
This probably means that the Vindicator is going to lose its web bonus when they rebalance pirate battleships. |

Zheketri
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:53:00 -
[497] - Quote
When I had discontinued doing missions I had just unlocked the marauders skill. Now I have a reason to buy it and start training.
Thank you. I look forward to seeing what the final iteration looks like. "Once you have taken his place, have you then defeated your enemy?" |

Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
881
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:54:00 -
[498] - Quote
I wouldnt remove the web bonuses from paladin and kronos. They are too iconic and useful. Also, vindis cost enough as it is.
Also can we get a scan res bonus for bastion mods? |

Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
765
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:56:00 -
[499] - Quote
Hmm 1 question... Or a few, for the pve side of things... Could this 25% bonus with bastion in optimal and falloff be without stacking penalties? So it is a greater boost with range mods, rigs and scripts? Also perhaps a boost to scan res when deployed in bastion mode so its easier to snipe frigs in missions since your removing web bonus? Also, would be cool if mjd could be used in bastion mode lol :) Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Akturous
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
226
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:57:00 -
[500] - Quote
OMMMMMMMMMFFFFFFFFFGGGGGGGGGGGGGYEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
Ps, I just finished HAC V, then I was working on cmd ships V, now I need Marauders V as well.
My only criticism after a quick glance is the removal of the web bonus from the Kronos and Paladin. When you're in siege mode you can't mitigate any transversal at all and as a damage application bonus, a web velocity bonus is far more useful than a fall-off or optimal one. Perhaps optimal could be useful in Paladin fleets, but at least keep the bonus on the Kronos. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
|

Akturous
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
226
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:02:00 -
[501] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Hmm 1 question... Or a few, for the pve side of things... Could this 25% bonus with bastion in optimal and falloff be without stacking penalties? So it is a greater boost with range mods, rigs and scripts? Also perhaps a boost to scan res when deployed in bastion mode so its easier to snipe frigs in missions since your removing web bonus? Also, would be cool if mjd could be used in bastion mode lol :)
They are no longer ratting ships, remove that idea from your mind forever. There's a miriad of ships that are great for ratting, carriers frankly and balancing around shooting red crosses is silly. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |

Asaryuu
Liquid Words
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:10:00 -
[502] - Quote
What? Really? Bastion mode? It must be me because i just don't understand. My Vargur has no issues tanking any lvl 4 and with a little patience i can even mop up the room and be on my way.
I don't see the need for some super tanky mode it must be a pvp thing.
And then to not even add any damage bonuses, what the hell is going on with this dev team.
Oh well maybe in practice it'll play better then sounds. |

Skullian
Celestial Armag3ddon
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:15:00 -
[503] - Quote
I think they need better resistances if they are going to have a + 400 sig radius.
I like the mini dread idea though. |

Alex Tutuola
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:21:00 -
[504] - Quote
So if bastion mode sets off a weapon timer, requiring you to turn off safety in high sec....
Who wants to bet the first day of this patch, CONCORD will respond to "sieged" marauders?  |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:21:00 -
[505] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.
On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to.
Or you could just fit a MWD or AB and burn to the next gate? Not seeing the issue here, all of these ships are going to have plenty of spare slots.
nahjustwarpin wrote:alot of people will still do missions in their domis or nightmares, why?
because bastion mode doesn't make running missions faster. It allows to tank more, but missions already can be tanked in mjd domis, machs and nightmares.
It's a gimmick idea without any direction.
Except that it allows you to fit less tank and more damage application and damage modules. Plus there's the immunity to E-War, which often slows down mission completion. Also strong damage application bonuses meaning fewer soft hits and faster kill times.
Skullian wrote:I think they need better resistances if they are going to have a + 400 sig radius.
I like the mini dread idea though.
You mean like the partial T2 resist (which they already have) or the 30% non-penalized resist bonus they get from Bastion?
Beyond that T2 resist on these ships would cause all sorts of balance problems with Dreadnaught HP battleships and all sorts of other sillyness. For solo and small gang without Logi the Bastion is better for tanking anyway and doesn't give these same issues. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:31:00 -
[506] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
Question, why does this require your safety to be turned off? It can't be for forced mechanics reasons because you can do things that get you a timer without the safety off like engage war-targets and shoot mission rats. Just because it prevents you from jumping isn't a very good reason to force people to turn off a feature CCP put in specifically to avoid "oops" incidents and newbie mistakes. |

JetCord
People of Random Nature
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:35:00 -
[507] - Quote
Dredastttarm wrote:I say keep the web bonus on the Kronos and the Paladin, small stuff is hard to hit as it is. And webs are invaluble in incursions, which is where the Paladin is performing the most atm.
i do agree with this - keep the web bonus or give it back the drones
im still not happy that we need another new skill to learn |

Vayn Baxtor
Ultra High Ping Crew
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:36:00 -
[508] - Quote
Can't do this, can't do that - but a transformer-Marauder? :D Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:36:00 -
[509] - Quote
I remember that someone in F&I proposed a similar idea a few days ago. I think I made quite the bad jokes about that (or at least I wanted to)... I can't remember who initially posted that, but i still wanted to apologize... profoundly.
Seeing these stats makes me feel al warm and fuzzy. 
I love you CCP Ytterbium.  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:37:00 -
[510] - Quote
Rainhailer wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
What about wormhole activations? A tenfold increase is mass will make them as massive as an Archon. Can a dreadnought jump through a WH when in seige mode? I'd expect these to behave in the same way. If they can jump, well that makes them a handy WH closing tool (for high-mass WHs), doesn't it? |
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:45:00 -
[511] - Quote
YaSiS wrote:Seems like CCP forgot the PVE side of the Marauders. No web and no Drones ? what about frigates that comes to close ?. Against frigate one normally uses light drones, no? Thus 25/25 is sufficient bay and bandwidth to deal with frigates. Nw, more space to allow a bit of versatility would be nice, but these ships don't need the extra drone capacity for anti-frigate work.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:45:00 -
[512] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Rainhailer wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
What about wormhole activations? A tenfold increase is mass will make them as massive as an Archon. Can a dreadnought jump through a WH when in seige mode? I'd expect these to behave in the same way. If they can jump, well that makes them a handy WH closing tool (for high-mass WHs), doesn't it?
No, the Dreadnaught has too much mass. The most mass that a Wormhole can take at one time is 135000000 which is just over a Phoenix's 132000000(the most massive non-super Capital). These come it at around the mass of a Chimera Carrier with the Bastion module active. Potentially quite useful for Finesse closing though.
Debora Tsung wrote:I remember that someone in F&I proposed a similar idea a few days ago. I think I made quite the bad jokes about that (or at least I wanted to)... I can't remember who initially posted that, but i still wanted to apologize... profoundly. Seeing these stats makes me feel al warm and fuzzy.  I love you CCP Ytterbium. 
I was in the thread you're talking about, the idea posted there was hilarious OP and included things like a 500% damage buff, full T2 resists, and other completely imbalanced hilarity. This is much more reasonable and involves fair trade-offs as opposed to "siege up and everything dies". |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
417
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:48:00 -
[513] - Quote
Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi.... |

Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse
2315
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:52:00 -
[514] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi....
Same.... i just got into my Bloody Kronos for PVP and those 90% webs on it is a must.
Why the Hell would I use a Kronos for PVP after the change over a Vindi without it's 90% webs? "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:57:00 -
[515] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi.... Same.... i just got into my Bloody Kronos for PVP and those 90% webs on it is a must. Why the Hell would I use a Kronos for PVP after the change over a Vindi without it's 90% webs?
Again, probably means the web bonus on the Vindi is going as well, which makes a lot of sense.
It's horrendously powerful, especially with Blasters because it gives any sort of smaller opponent the option to either fight where your tracking is good enough to hit him or fight where your tracking doesn't matter.
At longer ranges you can't break his tank and if he catches you then there's no escape.
As much fun as it is to use a bonus like this it's not much fun to fight against and really strikes me, especially combined with the high DPS nature of the Vindicator, as a relic of the days before the Nano-Nerf where every ship with these bonuses was simply adjusted and left to sit when the original 90% webs went away.
With how powerful webs are without this bonus and how absolutely silly this bonus is on the ships that have it I really can't say I'll be sorry to see it go. |

Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:58:00 -
[516] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Retmas wrote:also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)? Multiplicative, thus 72%. Further question about the non-stacking penalties. Reactive Armor Hardeners are supposed to not have stacking penalties, just like the DC. However, they actually do have stacking penalties with each other! This has been tested repeatedly by Uni members, calculating out every little minute detail. Will the new Marauder bonus also be stacking penalized with the DC and RAH, or will this be fixed? |

Setsune Rin
Bite Me inc Bitten.
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:59:00 -
[517] - Quote
i don't get the module for pvp, like a 1b sniper battleship?
without at least a damage upgrade it a liability instead of an asset there's a reason we're pretty risk averse with blackops, isn't going to change with marauders
at least a dread can do a ton of damage and its insurable, this just die
take of the assistance restriction and tank bonus maybe? immobile tanky sniper platform is reasonable
will still get eaten alive by bombers though |

Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
48
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:00:00 -
[518] - Quote
Dear CCP, can you please STOP rebalancing ships? By watching at this post I am affraid to imagine what will you do to Black Ops... |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:00:00 -
[519] - Quote
After reading this entire thread, and consideration, I have to comment.
I have only used my paladin for pve (missions and incursions), so my comments here are from that angle.
Overall these changes are interesting, and were a total surprise for me. I never in a blue moon expected a siege module for marauders.
My main worry is the removal of the web bonus. Currently, using 2x 60% webs, I can stop ANY mission frig, even the elite ones and kill them with mega pulse. Some of the worst ones are the elite minmatar, like you see in Worlds Collide. Using drones on elite frigs is stressful, they attack them as soon as you launch them. If you end up with say, 4x elite frigs close orbiting you, your chance of killing all 4 before you run out of light drones is pretty slim.
Of course you can unsiege and mjd away from them, but doing all that in every mission with close frigates will get old fast.
I would rather keep the web bonus and drop the tractor beam range bonus if you force me to choose. Having to mjd all over the place during missions, will end up having wrecks scattered all over the place. The 48km tractor range will be half useless. I think the tractor bonus should just be dropped for something more useful, especially if it lets us keep the web bonus.
Is there a reason the sensor strength was still left in nerfed mode?
Incursions:
The paladin is an excellent incursion ship now, with these changes, it won't be any longer. I'm talking about vanguards here. With no 90% webs, it will be restricted on what ships it can attack, having to only shoot whats been webbed by others. The siege module is also useless in vanguards. I doubt even with its boosted local tank, a sieged paladin can withstand full room aggro in a vanguard with no logi assistance. If the new sieged local tank IS strong enough to handle it, then I take back this specific complaint.
High Sec:
Why the heck does using the bastion module require safety off?? With safety off, the concord warnings for actions are disabled. Meaning mistakes are much more likely to happen, even among veteran pve players.
Also:
I'm an Amarr focused player. I have used the nightmare for years and am max skilled for it. I'm also max skill for paladin. I finally switched to the paladin after the tachyon change. Since I have no desire of flying capital ships, the paladin/nightmare are my end-game ships. There is nothing further for me to look forwards to. I hope ccp keeps this in mind, that these ships are VERY important to many players. |

Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:01:00 -
[520] - Quote
Do not like the changes at all. No one is going to use em for PvP!
- The mini siege is way to weak to justify being immune to RR and e-war for 80s/60s. At least give em a 100% damage bonus! TBH the immobility during mini siege is penalty enough. This is not a dread and has no big buffer! Remove immunity to RR.
Other things: - Marauders e-war bonus was really nice. - Sensor strength is needed! This is the main reason these ships suck at PvP. .. and price tag.
|
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:06:00 -
[521] - Quote
Setsune Rin wrote:i don't get the module for pvp, like a 1b sniper battleship?
without at least a damage upgrade it a liability instead of an asset there's a reason we're pretty risk averse with blackops, isn't going to change with marauders
at least a dread can do a ton of damage and its insurable, this just die
take of the assistance restriction and tank bonus maybe? immobile tanky sniper platform is reasonable
will still get eaten alive by bombers though
These are pretty clearly not supposed to be the kings of PvP.
Also remember that the Black-Ops Battleships are still on the queue for a re-balance and are likely getting split into combat and jump versions.
In general we don't need massively more DPS from T2 Battleships, they should justify their costs in other ways. Navy and Pirate Battleships are supposed to be the "T1 but a bit better" versions with very little utility per CCP's original T2/T3/Faction balance table (which I appear to have lost my link to ) |

Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse
2315
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:10:00 -
[522] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Bye 90% web to kronos. You are no longer useful for pvp compared to the vindi.... Same.... i just got into my Bloody Kronos for PVP and those 90% webs on it is a must. Why the Hell would I use a Kronos for PVP after the change over a Vindi without it's 90% webs? Again, probably means the web bonus on the Vindi is going as well, which makes a lot of sense. It's horrendously powerful, especially with Blasters because it gives any sort of smaller opponent the option to either fight where your tracking is good enough to hit him or fight where your tracking doesn't matter. At longer ranges you can't break his tank and if he catches you then there's no escape. As much fun as it is to use a bonus like this it's not much fun to fight against and really strikes me, especially combined with the high DPS nature of the Vindicator, as a relic of the days before the Nano-Nerf where every ship with these bonuses was simply adjusted and left to sit when the original 90% webs went away. With how powerful webs are without this bonus and how absolutely silly this bonus is on the ships that have it I really can't say I'll be sorry to see it go.
Aai.. the reason why the Kronos looks so good for PVP from my point of view in it's current form is because it is basicly a Mega on steroids with a web bonus and nuets. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |

Lixia Saran
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
43
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:10:00 -
[523] - Quote
When can we see their updated model and transformation animation? :D |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
352
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:11:00 -
[524] - Quote
I do not understand the direction of these changes. Some of them arguably fix some problems, but don't do it in a way that seems engaging. And in my opinion, that's a factor that needs to be considered too.
PvE aspects
I have never once used a MJD in PvE. It's far too quantized. I really mean this. Let's say I warp in to a pocket, and there's an acceleration gate 40 kilometers away. Great. I will overshoot it by 60 kilometers unless I do a whole bunch of wacky triangle stuff to land myself exactly on the gate. This will be a lot of tedious guesswork. They are already rather sluggish as it stands, and these changes will make them a downright chore to fly.
Furthermore, my Golem is fit with T2 modules. That's it. And it can already permatank literally every L4 I've ever attempted, with no worries of losing my ship. Not to mention, I'm fitting cruise missiles- with the recent buff to cruises, I barely see a reason to bother with torpedoes due to the fact that the damage loss you get from cruise missiles is way offset by the utterly obscene range cruise missiles offer, and the now non-lethargic flight time they have. I feel that faction/deadspace would just be utter overkill, and put me at a greater risk of being ganked.
So the Golem already has enough tank, and it already has enough damage projection. Why does it need this new module that in PvE just takes it completely over the top when that additional power isn't necessary? These changes do not alter my situation.
PvP aspects
Okay. So you claim you want them to be usable in PvP... But literally the only way is if they flip on the Bastion Module and become EWAR immune. Because you haven't changed their sensor strength at all. I'm not sold on this. Similar problems arise in PvP as in PvE from the quantized nature of the MJD. In large coordinated fleets, the MJD can be useful. The Marauders, what with their powerful active tanks, are not really standard fleet vessels. Because active tanking. In order to become useful in PvP, they must use this Bastion module. Which basically either locks them down in one position, or has them coast helplessly in one direction for a bit. I've always been told, if you stop moving, you're ******. Even with this massive increase in defense, you're stuck there for at least a minute, which could give driven groups pretty much a guaranteed kill by bringing in a large, extremely high damage fleet.
Attack/Combat hull mixup?
It seems to me that the 'high damage, excellent damage projection, obscene tank, low mobility' go hand in hand with the Combat line of battleships. But the four marauders are based off of Attack hulls. Please notice a pattern you've already engaged in with the HACs- the ones based off of the Attack hulls are fast, the ones based off of the combat ones are slow. You've gotten it backwards here, and have made T2 Combat hulls out of Attack ones. So why not save these changes for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? We do not really have 'specialized fast battleships'. The Machariel is an outlier, but does represent this role.
So instead of giving the Marauders the Bastion module, why not give them one that does the following: -30% penaltyless resistance bonus for shield, armor and structure, as now -Decreases signature radius by some undecided, reasonable quantity -Improves capacitor economy of active tanking modules -Massive reduction in 100MN MWD capacitor usage -n% increase in weapon rate of fire, where n is a reasonable number -Possible penalty to weapon range but nothing overwhelming.
Note the lack of EWAR immunity. That's because sensor strength is increased across the board to non-'hornet EC300s will have me permajammed into next year' levels. Further, these ships I think would have velocities, mass and agility on par with (or even less than in terms of mass) their T1 attack hull counterparts.
I don't know, I don't really like these changes very much. I guess one could argue that in a way it's allowing them to get into PvP, but it's... Not exactly the best way. These changes lack... 'Fun'. Marauders, post change, don't look like they'll be very fun to fly in any context. They're already not that great, and the alterations only prod them further down the path they're already on while removing things that made them tolerable. This post is probably dumb because it's after 1 AM. |

Hentalia
Obvious Shell Corp Obvious Shell Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:11:00 -
[525] - Quote
I've always been imagining something like this, while I normally fly T3 cruisers I'd really like to fly battleships, slowboating and tanking everything. With this module a sniping setup would be great. I'm really looking forward to this. Thinking up the possibilties with this right now :O |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:15:00 -
[526] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:I was in the thread you're talking about, the idea posted there was hilarious OP and included things like a 500% damage buff, full T2 resists, and other completely imbalanced hilarity. This is much more reasonable and involves fair trade-offs as opposed to "siege up and everything dies".
Well, to be fair.
I said similiar.
Not the same. 
There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:19:00 -
[527] - Quote
Since Empire dwellers are getting a t2 battleship designed to run missions, any chance for some equal treatment for null sec dwellers?
Can we get some ships designed to run anomalies and simultaneously buff anomalies to give greater income? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:25:00 -
[528] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:Since Empire dwellers are getting a t2 battleship designed to run missions, any chance for some equal treatment for null sec dwellers?
Can we get some ships designed to run anomalies and simultaneously buff anomalies to give greater income?
This should be able to comfortably run a lot of 'lower'-class anomalies. For the biggest ones though you're still going to need a fleet and maybe a carrier.
For reference you should be able to comfortably tank a Vargur to 2k DPS omni in Bastion. With faction/site specific resists you can probably achieve a much higher tank, especially if you pick your ship based on the rats you're fighting.
Between this and the potential for MJD kiting in these ships they are definitely going to see use in null-sec anoms.
Cannibal Kane wrote: Aai.. the reason why the Kronos looks so good for PVP from my point of view in it's current form is because it is basicly a Mega on steroids with a web bonus and nuets.
Which is only helping my point that this bonus is probably being eliminated by CCP for being over-powered. That it can take an otherwise lack-luster hull like the Kronus and push it into PvP relevancy is extremely telling.
|

QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc. Kill It With Fire
190
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:27:00 -
[529] - Quote
What follows is simply my opinion.
So without a damage bonus, you have not expanded their pvp use at all. First the only ship I see being used by this change for pvp is the vargur. MAYBE the kronos as well using it with null ammo to hit out at scorch range, but a rokh can do that cheaper and better.
Also the decreased time between jumps for the MJD is the WRONG BONUS. I will tell you why. Group jumps into your gate camp. Group uses their MJDs to get a 100km perch on you. You align and use your MJD on said group of people who now can not move. The bonus should be to range of the MJD. Instead of 100km, its now 200km. Sure it could be said that you could just combat them and warp to them. But exactly how many groups are going to have a combat prober capable of combating them out, and then warping on top of them and then letting the fleet warp on top of him within 64 seconds. (The time of the bastion module at level 4)
This brings me to my next issue. The bastion module timer skill. 5 percent per level is a BS number. Especially with it at 80 seconds. At level 4 it will last for 64 seconds. At level 3 it will last for 68 seconds. You get the point. Each level only takes away 4 seconds. The great majority of people who will only be using this for pve will only train the skill to level 3. (This is doubly true for high sec.) The module should be 120 second base and 20 percent per level. This will actually put people in harms way longer, and it will actually make that skill worth a damn. At level 4, it would make the cycle time 84 seconds. Level 5 would be the 60 seconds you were fond of for the original skill. Also the skill should just be tactical weapon reconfiguration. (That way dread pilots will have a reason to level their siege skill to 5.)
And back to the first point. No damage bonus? Seriously? This is not a mini dread without a damage bonus. Its a max range sniper. Thats it. A 15 percent per level damage bonus for the tac weap reconf skill would make these ships deadly in combat. And would also justify actually using a ship this expensive in combat. Currently the only reason to use any of these ships, in combat, is that the paladin and the kronos are sometimes cheaper than the Vindi and they get the same web bonus. But imagine titan bridging 50 kronos and some armor huggins and guardians into the middle of an enemy fleet. You would destroy a ton of them in the minute it took for the module and then you could all just MJD out. (the guards and huggins already heading in one direction so as to keep up with the kronos.)
The changes are on the right track, they just need tweaks. |

NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:28:00 -
[530] - Quote
Aglais wrote:I do not understand the direction of these changes. Some of them arguably fix some problems, but don't do it in a way that seems engaging. And in my opinion, that's a factor that needs to be considered too.
PvE aspects
I have never once used a MJD in PvE. It's far too quantized. I really mean this. Let's say I warp in to a pocket, and there's an acceleration gate 40 kilometers away. Great. I will overshoot it by 60 kilometers unless I do a whole bunch of wacky triangle stuff to land myself exactly on the gate. This will be a lot of tedious guesswork. They are already rather sluggish as it stands, and these changes will make them a downright chore to fly.
Furthermore, my Golem is fit with T2 modules. That's it. And it can already permatank literally every L4 I've ever attempted, with no worries of losing my ship. Not to mention, I'm fitting cruise missiles- with the recent buff to cruises, I barely see a reason to bother with torpedoes due to the fact that the damage loss you get from cruise missiles is way offset by the utterly obscene range cruise missiles offer, and the now non-lethargic flight time they have. I feel that faction/deadspace would just be utter overkill, and put me at a greater risk of being ganked.
So the Golem already has enough tank, and it already has enough damage projection. Why does it need this new module that in PvE just takes it completely over the top when that additional power isn't necessary? These changes do not alter my situation.
PvP aspects
Okay. So you claim you want them to be usable in PvP... But literally the only way is if they flip on the Bastion Module and become EWAR immune. Because you haven't changed their sensor strength at all. I'm not sold on this. Similar problems arise in PvP as in PvE from the quantized nature of the MJD. In large coordinated fleets, the MJD can be useful. The Marauders, what with their powerful active tanks, are not really standard fleet vessels. Because active tanking. In order to become useful in PvP, they must use this Bastion module. Which basically either locks them down in one position, or has them coast helplessly in one direction for a bit. I've always been told, if you stop moving, you're ******. Even with this massive increase in defense, you're stuck there for at least a minute, which could give driven groups pretty much a guaranteed kill by bringing in a large, extremely high damage fleet.
Attack/Combat hull mixup?
It seems to me that the 'high damage, excellent damage projection, obscene tank, low mobility' go hand in hand with the Combat line of battleships. But the four marauders are based off of Attack hulls. Please notice a pattern you've already engaged in with the HACs- the ones based off of the Attack hulls are fast, the ones based off of the combat ones are slow. You've gotten it backwards here, and have made T2 Combat hulls out of Attack ones. So why not save these changes for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? We do not really have 'specialized fast battleships'. The Machariel is an outlier, but does represent this role.
So instead of giving the Marauders the Bastion module, why not give them one that does the following: -30% penaltyless resistance bonus for shield, armor and structure, as now -Decreases signature radius by some undecided, reasonable quantity -Improves capacitor economy of active tanking modules -Massive reduction in 100MN MWD capacitor usage -n% increase in weapon rate of fire, where n is a reasonable number -Possible penalty to weapon range but nothing overwhelming.
Note the lack of EWAR immunity. That's because sensor strength is increased across the board to non-'hornet EC300s will have me permajammed into next year' levels. Further, these ships I think would have velocities, mass and agility on par with (or even less than in terms of mass) their T1 attack hull counterparts.
I don't know, I don't really like these changes very much. I guess one could argue that in a way it's allowing them to get into PvP, but it's... Not exactly the best way. These changes lack... 'Fun'. Marauders, post change, don't look like they'll be very fun to fly in any context. They're already not that great, and the alterations only prod them further down the path they're already on while removing things that made them tolerable. This post is probably dumb because it's after 1 AM.
I agree the current changes are kinda stupid as dumb and usable in PvP? ROFL YEAH RIGHT! |
|

warGasm81
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:28:00 -
[531] - Quote
WOW...why can't you people :CCP: make the marauder a marauder...instead of trying to gimp it more by being a mini dread that no one will use?
If your going to do anything w/ them...try this...perhaps
-ability to jump to covert cynos -cannot fit a covert cloak -increase drone bay by 3% (per level of the skill Marauder) -decrease signature radius by 35% (since it is a tech 2) -increase sensor strength by 10% (per level of the skill Marauder)
How about working something like that out, instead of make an already worthless ship....even more worthless. |

Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1192
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:31:00 -
[532] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction. Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps. And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..  Other than that.. AWESOME! I have to agree ading a tractor bonus is just a waste.
Also would it be possible to ad a damage bonus for the Bastion Module.... or that would be to op  |

SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
671
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:32:00 -
[533] - Quote
If you guys didn't notice, Marauders with bastion modules become the best 9/10, 10/10 soloers ever.
I'm talking Maze-like 10/10. No fucks given about ECM, no fucks given about citadel torps. Get in, press button, tank everything, recieve loot. |

maGz
Chaos Reborn
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:36:00 -
[534] - Quote
Without a damage bonus on the Bastion, you're not really doing the marauders any favours with these changes. Sure I can sit there and be immune to E-War, and tank like crazy but to what end? In PvE it may cut some corners and make things faster - in PvP; people will just bring more to break my tank and my 55km optimal neutrons did F all anyway...
Also you don't want them to go faster than pirate BS - yeah that's achieved pretty well. But why not out-damage them? These are ships that cost around 1 bil and you're going to force them to sit still for at least a minute - why shouldn't they out-damage the pirate BS in this mode? A Machariel can move like a mad man while applying DPS, why should the Vargur not be allowed to out-dps while not moving at all? It makes no sense whatsoever to make the Bastion and then balance it around pirate BS as the marauders would be in a totally different niche with it
Also why give us a new skill to train when this could easily (and logically) be combined with Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration? |

Smite Mueller
Die Schar des Schwarzen Herzogs GONE BERZERK
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:41:00 -
[535] - Quote
the reason why pirate BS outdo every Marauder in PVE is the fact that most lv4 missions contain acceleration gates about 13-40km away.
Without a decent propmodule a marauder has to slowboat there in a very painful way for the player.
Using a Tengu or a Machariel brings you to the next gate in no time. Thus, only very limited use in PVE.
Adding these to PVP fleets, well...
It is kind of obvious that CCP is trying hard to work against inflation and ISK overflow in EVE, but really
How exactly should these expensive ships be deployed? Insider a carrier? And the pilot?
Can`t jump like a dread, why should I use gates? When in 0.0 fleet ops the system entries will be heavily defended....
It is a sure way to burn lots of iskies, but that can be achieved far more effectively.
Make ALL rats in 0.0 anomalies able to scramble.... OR just nerf the ridiculous bounties in 0.0 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:44:00 -
[536] - Quote
warGasm81 wrote:WOW...why can't you people :CCP: make the marauder a marauder...instead of trying to gimp it more by being a mini dread that no one will use?
If your going to do anything w/ them...try this...perhaps
-ability to jump to covert cynos -cannot fit a covert cloak -increase drone bay by 3% (per level of the skill Marauder) -decrease signature radius by 35% (since it is a tech 2) -increase sensor strength by 10% (per level of the skill Marauder)
How about working something like that out, instead of make an already worthless ship....even more worthless.
This sounds like something for the Black-Ops revamp, not the Marauder revamp. |

NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:44:00 -
[537] - Quote
Tornado > all these Marauders |

Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
135
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:44:00 -
[538] - Quote
So highsec missions will become much much easier. Or this bastion module will be banned in higsec space?
Gallente maruder ? WHY! Give it bonus to drones, drones and again D R O N E S!
Why are you making all the ship the same? This is maruder class try to do something more innovative - it will be hard to drop 300 bs fleet of them in null because of their price. Phantasm - 150% speed bonus in cloak - 2LY jump range
|

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:50:00 -
[539] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Counter-point : You're bringing in a new Rank 8 skill. It takes a while to train those. And that skill has the same requirement as the Tactical Weapon Reconfig. Which is also a long skill to train. Both skills allow the use of one specific module, on one specific kind of ship. Why not merge them ? Just make it so that Bastion mods use 0 Strontium per cycle, that'll probably fix your issue, I guess ?
Its not like they really care, my blops still uses the great jump portal generation skill to about absolutly no effect whats so ever.
This is just to put in more training time.
the bounus will make it nice to collapse WHs though ideal ship for thoese c5/c6 kg holes that went under 50%, where you dont want to put that moros through anymore. Its like the closing hic, just a stage earlier, and faster.
Seems to be the only use for this kind of ship to me rigth now. That and ******* that falcon, hopefully the falcon is pointed somehow, because that thing cant point ****. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:52:00 -
[540] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:[quote=YaSiS][quote=Dinsdale Pirannha][quote=CCP Rise]I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
Does it mean that in that bastion something, missiles will be invulnerable to npcs defender missiles?, because defenders are anti missile type of weapon same as tracking disruptors against turrets, and almost all if not _all_ npcs uses defenders while only _some_ npcs uses tracking disruptors.
|
|

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2592
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:55:00 -
[541] - Quote
Hmmm... this is really innovative. It's going to be interesting to see the fits that come out for PvP.
I have some thinking to do... 
|

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:57:00 -
[542] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Rainhailer wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
What about wormhole activations? A tenfold increase is mass will make them as massive as an Archon. Can a dreadnought jump through a WH when in seige mode? I'd expect these to behave in the same way. If they can jump, well that makes them a handy WH closing tool (for high-mass WHs), doesn't it?
A dread/carrier cant jump in siege/triage, because the siege/triage bumps the mass of the capital above the maximum allowed jump mass for a WH. These things wont have that problem (Bastion mode will be instantly canceled on the other side by session change though, which is an advantage). |

Narzis
No Mutants Allowed pwn-O-graphy
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:00:00 -
[543] - Quote
Sounds real good and, i'd like to see them in pvp. Tha bastion module is a great idea.
But don't forget that there are many people using them in PVE. Removing the web bonus is a good thing, but it can render the paladin useless against npc. The optimal bonus is not too useful, give us a tracking bonus instead. Of course with pulses, the optimal is very important, but at the moment only 2 ships can use effectively the tachyons, and one of them is the paladin. If you remove the ability to kill small ships with drones (because of the drone bay nerf), and hit close targets (no web bonus), tachyons will die. How I look like when I win a fight? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32571986/out-2.gif |

Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
89
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:02:00 -
[544] - Quote
Obviously, MJDs should be encouraged to produce more variety on the battlefield. In general, I am cool with this. But somehow you tend to produce supercomplicated niche things that need tons of skill time and are viable only in very specific situations.
What about cutting MJD reactivation delay in general? You want to see more of them, great. Why not in regular BS? Would they be OP if they could hop every minute?
Also you could do something like add range scripts to MJDs to make smaller Hops. Change Script-> jump only 50km. (ok you will say: terribad UI, but i have no idea how to do this differently in the current UI to parametrize a module) Then MJDs as a whole would be more useful and we might see ships that dont need 2 prop mods. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:03:00 -
[545] - Quote
maGz wrote:Without a damage bonus on the Bastion, you're not really doing the marauders any favours with these changes. Sure I can sit there and be immune to E-War, and tank like crazy but to what end? In PvE it may cut some corners and make things faster - in PvP; people will just bring more to break my tank and my 55km optimal neutrons did F all anyway...
Also you don't want them to go faster than pirate BS - yeah that's achieved pretty well. But why not out-damage them? These are ships that cost around 1 bil and you're going to force them to sit still for at least a minute - why shouldn't they out-damage the pirate BS in this mode? A Machariel can move like a mad man while applying DPS, why should the Vargur not be allowed to out-dps while not moving at all? It makes no sense whatsoever to make the Bastion and then balance it around pirate BS as the marauders would be in a totally different niche with it
Also why give us a new skill to train when this could easily (and logically) be combined with Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration?
In order...
Because damage application trumps flat damage sometimes and if you deployed in a situation where they could do that then that's kind of your mistake. It says on the tin "Niche role, use with caution" not "kill everything I-win button, use all the time every-time"
The pirate-BSes are not particularly known for their speed beyond the Machariel. The Pirate BS ships are, per this chart from the original ship re-balancing dev-blog, meant to be better versions of the T1 ships. The T2 are supposed to be more specialized. Right now we have this problem where the Pirate Battleships are stepping all over everything by being good at pretty much everything to a wide and absurd degree and that's probably going to change with the rebalance to make them just better T1 ships with good fittings but no major specializations.
Because it's not particularly logical. The Bastion doesn't use fuel and the Siege Module doesn't want a duration bonus. Plus Marauders don't exactly lead into Dreadnaughts in any sort of logical progression. |

Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:03:00 -
[546] - Quote
I understand what you are aiming for, burst mobility with burst tank but the concept is heavily contradicted in real PvP situations. The contradiction is simple, with a superior range damage application you do not want to be stationary. Example: - You are able to be at 50-100km from the opposing fleet using the bastion mode and your superior range with no enemy ships close by = your burst tank is useless
- You are tackled by being probed down and warped in or something small and fast sneaked in, your superior range is useless while you may use your burst tank but you have to have heavy support with you/nearby or call in support fast using a cyno, whatever. While you are tackled the opposing fleet with BS and MJD fitted MJDing in to close range or bouncing or MWDing, either way the result is = dead Marauder/s or escalation on both sides.
The bastion mode forces the Marauder/s and it's support into a brawling situation and the Marauder/s will be ignored (or alphaed) from the opposing fleet until the other DPS support is killed of. So the burst tank in bastion mode is utterly useless, if the opposing fleet has enough DPS you will be alphaed, if not ingnored until the support is gone. The worst is in both situations being not tackled or tackled you burst tank is useless. |

Aloh
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Happy Cartel
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:03:00 -
[547] - Quote
Ok CCP you want feedback here we go.
First this is BOLD, and that both pleases me and intrigues me. Bravo for that. I donGÇÖt think anyone saw this coming so again Bravo for that. For PVE yeah you have given people a lot of reasons to use this. Ok here is an idea for you, two new modules you can only fit one at a time. One a mini siege module, you get a bonus to Damage and tracking goes way down. In other words it turns into a mini dread without the rep bonus. This module would be more useful for PvP then anything else. The battleship siege module in all other respects acts like the siege module on a dread. The other module is a triage module Again just as a triage module on a carrier you get the bonus to local reps but not to remote reps as that would crowd out the logi. And it would make sense to add the range bonus when using the mod but not with the siege module. You can use one but not both. Hitting a tower that wonGÇÖt be defended? Siege it is. Want to run some sites in a WH? Triage is the way to go. Adds more then just a little PvP element to the ship and its roles. You can even use the modules skills to be of benefit to dreads when that balance happens.
|

Jackie Fisher
syrkos technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
258
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:06:00 -
[548] - Quote
Bastion module is grossly overpowered for hi sec PVE. The penalties for use, no movement for 60 sec + weapons timer, are trivial for L4 missions. Large number of missions you don't need to move in anyway so that's no loss. Likewise it takes a Marauder plenty of time to warp to a gate/station so most of the weapons timer will have gone without any delay to the pilot.
Replace the Weapons timer penalty with Suspect timer. Real risk vs reward choice for the PVEr then and encourage players to PVE in less populated systems. Fear God and Thread Nought |

Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
173
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:12:00 -
[549] - Quote
The MJD focus runs counter to the salvage effect (tractor range particularly). The salvage effect makes Marauders best suited to short ranged weapon systems in general, it's almost impossible to see the coincidence of ranges as not designed in.
With the Kronos in particular I disagree with the bonus change. The replacement of the Stasis web bonus with a Blaster range bonus (Falloff encourages blasters) runs entirely counter to the long, MJD range the ships are perhaps shifting towards. If rails are to be encouraged then it should be an optimal range bonus. |

Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
135
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:12:00 -
[550] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Hmmm... this is really innovative. It's going to be interesting to see the fits that come out for PvP. I have some thinking to do... 
****** if you don't have a lot of anti tacklers and your fleet in baubles. Bomber wing , and all your ships die.
I don't like the idea that ccp makes all those ships the same - again.
What are you thinking about this kind of maruder bonuses while siege.
Amar: (potential anti tackler) * 150% to scan resolution * 150% to tracking speed * 150% to fire rate * 25% to lock range * -50% to turret damage ( or more just to 2 turrets where able to kill a bomber on 1 shoot) Gallente: (drone god) * 1000m3 drone bay * 15% to sentry damage * 25% to heavy drone damage * 200% to light drone speed * 100km drone control range * can deploy 2 additional light or medium drone per maruder level * can deploy 1 additional heavy drone per maruder level Minmatar (heavy alpha sniper) * 50% optimal and falloff range * 150% turrent damage * -80% of fire rate * 50% tracking speed Caldari ( missles - well this is bit hard - no idea for PVP)
Phantasm - 150% speed bonus in cloak - 2LY jump range
|
|

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
853
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:13:00 -
[551] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:Bastion module is grossly overpowered for hi sec PVE. The penalties for use, no movement for 60 sec + weapons timer, are trivial for L4 missions. Large number of missions you don't need to move in anyway so that's no loss. Likewise it takes a Marauder plenty of time to warp to a gate/station so most of the weapons timer will have gone without any delay to the pilot.
It's almost entirely irrelevant to highsec PVE. There is no tanking problem running L4s, so the additional tank during bastion mode is unimportant. It's only the range bonuses that make a difference, but it's not a huge one, really. |

Narzis
No Mutants Allowed pwn-O-graphy
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:17:00 -
[552] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Gogela wrote:Hmmm... this is really innovative. It's going to be interesting to see the fits that come out for PvP. I have some thinking to do...  ****** if you don't have a lot of anti tacklers and your fleet in baubles. Bomber wing , and all your ships die. I don't like the idea that ccp makes all those ships the same - again. What are you thinking about this kind of maruder bonuses while siege. Amar: (potential anti tackler) * 150% to scan resolution * 150% to tracking speed * 150% to fire rate * 25% to lock range * -50% to turret damage ( or more just to 2 turrets where able to kill a bomber on 1 shoot) Gallente: (drone god) * 1000m3 drone bay * 15% to sentry damage * 25% to heavy drone damage * 200% to light drone speed * 100km drone control range * can deploy 2 additional light or medium drone per maruder level * can deploy 1 additional heavy drone per maruder level Minmatar (heavy alpha sniper) * 50% optimal and falloff range * 150% turrent damage * -80% of fire rate * 50% tracking speed Caldari ( missles - well this is bit hard - no idea for PVP)
For caldari: auto-target cruise missiles or torps, with highly increased rof :D
How I look like when I win a fight? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32571986/out-2.gif |

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
397
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:20:00 -
[553] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Aai.. the reason why the Kronos looks so good for PVP from my point of view in it's current form is because it is basicly a Mega on steroids with a web bonus and nuets.
And I'm sitting in a Vindi myself. These changes make me shiver for the future, as the web bonus is one of the main reasons I love that boat. If it loses it, I might as well use Navy Mega for half the price.
As for the changes themselves... I'm torn. On the one hand, that Kronos reaches out to 81 km with null in Bastion mode, even without any mods. Add a few TEs/TCs and you're talking over 100km with a blaster ship and an effective combat range over 50km. However, on the other hand, these marauders are more or less built for a sniper role and I like my ships to be "in your face", with decent mobility and just enough tank, like the Vindi.
I guess the real question is - do they live up to the name "Marauder"? Well... I guess that thing has a Bastion module too :p
Anyway, here's my opinion:
I like the Kronos and the Paladin, both make excellent hulls for a number of very interesting fits, both long and short range. Funny enough, I think Kronos has more in common with Rokh than with Megathron line now.
Vargur, I'm not so sure about. Its counterpart is supposed to be the Tempest, which is fast, light, whereas the Vargur is now a lumbering beast, similar to the Maelstrom. I don't like it, that's all there is to it.
Last but not least, Golem which can't decide what it wants to do. Don't get me wrong, the TP buff is long overdue, but we're talking of a ship that's supposed to be used at 100 km, with no target painter optimal range bonus and the only marauder to retain a damage application module bonus. Why?
Beyond this, I think the "mini dread" tag that seems to be popular around here isn't fair. Dreadnoughts use the Siege module to vastly increase their dps, which makes them awesome at... well... sieges. Marauder doesn't get this, it's just a lot tougher to crack. The problem is, tanking ships aren't very popular - look at the Rattlesnake and tell me how many times you see one running about, both in pve and pvp. Why? Because the tank you need in pve needs to be "just enough" and in pvp, you want to be mobile, not stuck at one place. Bastion in null for instance screams bomber runs and I'm just not seeing why I'd use them over Tier 3s for high sec pos sieges.
I don't know, the more I'm reading the OP, the more it strikes me as if the class doesn't really scream "OMG, I WANT ONE!" for any particular situation. Certainly not something that would be worth two months of training. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:21:00 -
[554] - Quote
Aloh wrote:Ok CCP you want feedback here we go.
First this is BOLD, and that both pleases me and intrigues me. Bravo for that. I donGÇÖt think anyone saw this coming so again Bravo for that. For PVE yeah you have given people a lot of reasons to use this. Ok here is an idea for you, two new modules you can only fit one at a time. One a mini siege module, you get a bonus to Damage and tracking goes way down. In other words it turns into a mini dread without the rep bonus. This module would be more useful for PvP then anything else. The battleship siege module in all other respects acts like the siege module on a dread. The other module is a triage module Again just as a triage module on a carrier you get the bonus to local reps but not to remote reps as that would crowd out the logi. And it would make sense to add the range bonus when using the mod but not with the siege module. You can use one but not both. Hitting a tower that wonGÇÖt be defended? Siege it is. Want to run some sites in a WH? Triage is the way to go. Adds more then just a little PvP element to the ship and its roles. You can even use the modules skills to be of benefit to dreads when that balance happens.
No idea how this is going to be "of benefit" to dreads. The mechanics for Bastion don't use fuel and Marauders don't lead into Capitals.
Plus high sec doesn't need dread-blapping from sub-caps. That's just a horrible idea in general. So are super-damage T2 battleships.
Jacob Holland wrote:The MJD focus runs counter to the salvage effect (tractor range particularly). The salvage effect makes Marauders best suited to short ranged weapon systems in general, it's almost impossible to see the coincidence of ranges as not designed in.
With the Kronos in particular I disagree with the bonus change. The replacement of the Stasis web bonus with a Blaster range bonus (Falloff encourages blasters) runs entirely counter to the long, MJD range the ships are perhaps shifting towards. If rails are to be encouraged then it should be an optimal range bonus.
Not really, you can MJD to within ~2-4km of any wreck within 150km of you with the 48km boosted range of a T2 Tractor Beam or you can simply choose not to fit the Bastion module for an extra high slot to more efficiently salvage and loot the mission.
Also the falloff bonus combine with the additional bonus on the Bastion mod ends up working surprisingly well for Railguns as well, especially if you fit a couple Tracking Computers in the mids. The Kronos with 425 Railguns ends up with ~60km+90 falloff with Antimatter and 2 faction TCs at max skills.
Against some rats you may be better off fitting Blasters but you would also probably not use the MJD much and rather just sit still with your massive tracking bonus and blap away at Battleships only using the MJD to clear up cruisers and frigates at the end or the beginning. |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
363
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:22:00 -
[555] - Quote
Falloff bonus doesn't do a whole lot for railguns. The other three ships have proper fully effective range bonuses. I think for hybrids you should just give them range bonuses on both optimal and falloff when it's a general turret ship and not made for either blasters or rails specifically, or you could go make blasters optimal-focused and drop all the falloff bonuses for optimal. |

maGz
Chaos Reborn
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:25:00 -
[556] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:maGz wrote:Without a damage bonus on the Bastion, you're not really doing the marauders any favours with these changes. Sure I can sit there and be immune to E-War, and tank like crazy but to what end? In PvE it may cut some corners and make things faster - in PvP; people will just bring more to break my tank and my 55km optimal neutrons did F all anyway...
Also you don't want them to go faster than pirate BS - yeah that's achieved pretty well. But why not out-damage them? These are ships that cost around 1 bil and you're going to force them to sit still for at least a minute - why shouldn't they out-damage the pirate BS in this mode? A Machariel can move like a mad man while applying DPS, why should the Vargur not be allowed to out-dps while not moving at all? It makes no sense whatsoever to make the Bastion and then balance it around pirate BS as the marauders would be in a totally different niche with it
Also why give us a new skill to train when this could easily (and logically) be combined with Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration? In order... Because damage application trumps flat damage sometimes and if you deployed in a situation where they could do that then that's kind of your mistake. It says on the tin "Niche role, use with caution" not "kill everything I-win button, use all the time every-time" The pirate-BSes are not particularly known for their speed beyond the Machariel. The Pirate BS ships are, per this chart from the original ship re-balancing dev-blog, meant to be better versions of the T1 ships. The T2 are supposed to be more specialized. Right now we have this problem where the Pirate Battleships are stepping all over everything by being good at pretty much everything to a wide and absurd degree and that's probably going to change with the rebalance to make them just better T1 ships with good fittings but no major specializations. Because it's not particularly logical. The Bastion doesn't use fuel and the Siege Module doesn't want a duration bonus. Plus Marauders don't exactly lead into Dreadnaughts in any sort of logical progression.
In order...
Niche role for what exactly? Woohoo I have better damage application but I sit still (only for 60 secs admittedly) but for what use? And if L4s is your answer - ok... Point being that Ytterbium mentions that they want to expand their use in PvP as well, nothing about the Bastion really seem very appealing in PvP (now if prices on Marauders were lowered - then we could talk about them being more viable for PvP).
I agree the T2 ships are meant to be specialized but this ties into the niche role. What is the role of the Marauder with these changes besides being a better missioning boat? And also there's a huge problem in general if you start balancing ships by nerfing others. Not saying pirate BS shouldn't be nerfed, but the Bastion as a niche thing should stand on its own in being awesome (not OP just awesome) and not be relying on the fact that pirate BS will be nerfed at the same time.
And finally; if you read Ytterbiums post: "This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation." Ok maybe we could agree that the current Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration doesn't tie into a Bastion module, but that's nothing a keyboard can't fix... |

Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:25:00 -
[557] - Quote
These ships already require a huge SP investment to sit it, and an enormous 10x skill train to fly really well, do they really really need another 8x skill tacked on? Really?
The changes themselves sound amazing, but that's a long time to skill for even if you already have all the required support skills AND racial BS V completed already. |

Sigras
Conglomo
522
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:30:00 -
[558] - Quote
Asaryuu wrote:What? Really? Bastion mode? It must be me because i just don't understand. My Vargur has no issues tanking any lvl 4 and with a little patience i can even mop up the room and be on my way.
I don't see the need for some super tanky mode it must be a pvp thing.
And then to not even add any damage bonuses, what the hell is going on with this dev team.
Oh well maybe in practice it'll play better then sounds. WAT?!
Seriously? how short sighted can you be? you get 25% extra falloff (which btw is extra damage at all ranges > 3.6 km assuming you're not doing something silly like using artillery), you get 30% more tank (which is more damage application because it frees mids for target painters / tracking computers), and you get E-War immunity (which is more damage because of reduced time jammed / dampened) and you're complaining?
Seriously, has any thought been put into what this will do to level 4 missions? This will make basically every one of them childs play even more than they are now. Missions are really gonna need an overhaul after this. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:34:00 -
[559] - Quote
It would be nice if the golem range bonus would be looked at. The range bonus isn't very useful for cruise missiles because engagements don't happen at those ranges, and the range bonus isn't enough to make torpedoes a solid choice either. It would be nice if it was either changed to something else so the ship supported more of a cruise missile play style, or if it had double range bonuses so that torpedoes were a good option. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:34:00 -
[560] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Seriously? how short sighted can you be? you get 25% extra falloff (which btw is extra damage at all ranges > 3.6 km assuming you're not doing something silly like using artillery)
25% range is only useful for torpedoes; with the extreme range of cruise missiles there's little benefit (other than they reach the target a bit faster). +25% rate of fire would be better. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

LordShazbot
Fleet of Fail Usurper.
62
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:34:00 -
[561] - Quote
This is cool and all but when are you going to upgrade the clothes store? I need new pants. |

Jackie Fisher
syrkos technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
258
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:36:00 -
[562] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:Bastion module is grossly overpowered for hi sec PVE. The penalties for use, no movement for 60 sec + weapons timer, are trivial for L4 missions. Large number of missions you don't need to move in anyway so that's no loss. Likewise it takes a Marauder plenty of time to warp to a gate/station so most of the weapons timer will have gone without any delay to the pilot. It's almost entirely irrelevant as there is no tanking problem running L4s, so the additional tank during bastion mode is unimportant. It's only the range bonuses that make a difference, but it's not a huge one, really. I understand what you are saying but the extra tank allows removal of tank mods and their replacement with offensive mods.
Also the EW immunity will be very valuable in some missions. Fear God and Thread Nought |

suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:38:00 -
[563] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote: The changes themselves sound amazing, but that's a long time to skill for even if you already have all the required support skills AND racial BS V completed already.
No it isn't... it's fine
the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones -á--áCommander Ted |

Moroccan Tourist
CRITICAL Novus
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:39:00 -
[564] - Quote
Who give a **** about carebears and their L4s , although incursion might become popular again .
And I'm theocrafting a shield Paladin  |

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
222
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:44:00 -
[565] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:Bastion module is grossly overpowered for hi sec PVE. The penalties for use, no movement for 60 sec + weapons timer, are trivial for L4 missions. Large number of missions you don't need to move in anyway so that's no loss. Likewise it takes a Marauder plenty of time to warp to a gate/station so most of the weapons timer will have gone without any delay to the pilot. It's almost entirely irrelevant as there is no tanking problem running L4s, so the additional tank during bastion mode is unimportant. It's only the range bonuses that make a difference, but it's not a huge one, really.
this. I am seeing this as kind of a pvp hookup to empire actually. If by chance you deck a corp that runs even a half assed attempt at a pos defense with guns it at least gets defense boost in siege. Its not death star proof obviously....but except for the few like my friends who built their empire pos with knowledge gained from years in 0.0 about saving and killing pos' death stars aren't common in empire anyway. So this may work for this maybe.
EW immune be nice for jam mods if in the pos defence setup. It be this immunity that tbh I see is the only pve use of this siege the current setup for marauders. Pulled gurista? Stack the crap out of kinetic resists, pop siege, go to town. Its not the sensor strength boost I'd like...but it is an innovative solution to the problem. far from op...it was needed with its abysmal sensors. |

Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:51:00 -
[566] - Quote
Antoine Jordan wrote:
- Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
This is weird. Falloff helps certain gun classes more than others. Missiles don't get a damage to application at all, just projection. If you have application/projection targets you're trying to hit, I think you'd be better off evening out the Bastion module effects in case of future use, and tweaking the specific Marauder stats to hit the goals.
This
Guns should get optimal and falloff.
or
Missiles should get velocity and explosion velocity
Also
The bastions weapons timer. Does that start and then count down on activation or does the count down only start once the bastion deactivaes.
Just curious If Tanking out agression timers ( Bastion and deagress ) is an intended design feature ?
|

Jessica Danikov
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
108
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:55:00 -
[567] - Quote
Bastion module... interesting idea, but why Mauraders? I think the MJD aspect fits them well, but the Bastion module feels tacked on- especially if you going to be reworking the hulls so they can transform.
Sounds like a new ship line to me. T2 Rokhs/Maelstroms/Abaddons/Hyperions would far more suit the Bastion idea (can picture them transforming far easier) and you can really focus on what makes Bastion-enabled ships exciting, fun to use and balanced without being polluted with the preconceptions and baggage from Mauraders.
It also rounds out the Battleship T2 tier. |

Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
134
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:57:00 -
[568] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Sorry, but I fail to see your reasoning here. The Jump portal generation skill also give some reduction on the material consumption, and that skill is also being used for covert bridges, which has no material consumption. Maybe it could work similarly? Reducing the consumption of 0? :)
|

Karak Bol
Crepuscular
98
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:58:00 -
[569] - Quote
This will change the way Highsec POSes are fitted. Death to ECM-Stars! |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:03:00 -
[570] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 12 Radar Signature radius: 420(-80)
The capacitor amount number is way off. The current base capacitor is 7031, so one of the two numbers is off.
/my guess is 8000 capacitor is correct, 9406 seems like an extremely strange and not round number |
|

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:07:00 -
[571] - Quote
Why dont just leave them bascally as they are but give them some more sensor strength, the proposed bonus changes (so the Kronos gains some more short range capabillity, the other marauders are fine in short range) and as a new feature:
- a strong heatdmg bonus depending on your marauder skill-
So they gain a buff in dmg, in tank, in electronic systems and if you make salvager heatable, they even get the desired salvage buff.
And it is for the player to choose which aspect of is ship he wanna buff by choosing which modules he overheat. At the same time you gain alot more PVP potential.
That would do a lot more to the actual marauder gameplay (which is fine as it is) than this crazy experimental transformer mode and mjd bonus which combine a lot of gamestyles into one single ship without being able to provide realy strong synergy effects between the different proposed mechanics. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:09:00 -
[572] - Quote
Lore Varan wrote:Antoine Jordan wrote:
- Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
This is weird. Falloff helps certain gun classes more than others. Missiles don't get a damage to application at all, just projection. If you have application/projection targets you're trying to hit, I think you'd be better off evening out the Bastion module effects in case of future use, and tweaking the specific Marauder stats to hit the goals. This Guns should get optimal and falloff. or Missiles should get velocity and explosion velocity Also The bastions weapons timer. Does that start and then count down on activation or does the count down only start once the bastion deactivates. Just curious If Tanking out agression timers ( Bastion and deagress ) is an intended design feature ?
Check the OP and the Dev responses first next time. Tracking was put on there by mistake and has been removed from the OP. There's a comment in this thread from CCP Rise on the issue.
Jessica Danikov wrote:Bastion module... interesting idea, but why Mauraders? I think the MJD aspect fits them well, but the Bastion module feels tacked on- especially if you going to be reworking the hulls so they can transform.
Sounds like a new ship line to me. T2 Rokhs/Maelstroms/Abaddons/Hyperions would far more suit the Bastion idea (can picture them transforming far easier) and you can really focus on what makes Bastion-enabled ships exciting, fun to use and balanced without being polluted with the preconceptions and baggage from Mauraders.
It also rounds out the Battleship T2 tier.
Does still mean you have to rebalance Mauraders without the Bastion module, but who said this would be easy? ;)
This still leaves Marauders in a crap spot being basically everything the new T2 ships are not supposed to be. They have a solution here as things stand and it seems to be fairly popular so why shove them back to the drawing board just because you don't like that a ship-class has "baggage".
It's not like this is their first prototype iteration, this is what they came up with after crossing off lots of high-concept and probably even fairly fleshed out ideas. It's then been refined to the point that they were ready to show it to us as a first-pass, and your argument is... that you don't like the ship model? Take it up with the art department. |

Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
39
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:11:00 -
[573] - Quote
Please make Bastion mode so it also reflect Energy Neutralizers/Vampires, mean out of 100 theoretically neuted capacitor, 50 will be neuted from Marauder and 50 from one who neutralizes (same as Capacitor Battery).
Otherwise it'll be too susceptible to capacitor warfare (if you do not mean Neutralizer immunity too). |

Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:13:00 -
[574] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Check the OP and the Dev responses first next time. Tracking was put on there by mistake and has been removed from the OP. There's a comment in this thread from CCP Rise on the issue.
Real men post first and ask questions later  |

Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
92
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:18:00 -
[575] - Quote
Cheng Chai wrote:The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....
That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi) Have fun trying to active tank without cap Sleeper neuts hurt  |

SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
673
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:23:00 -
[576] - Quote
Hey, got a funny idea.
100% Heat Dissipation when in Bastion mode. How about that ? That's a refreshing bonus that has never seen before. You could reduce some tanking bonuses if you think it would make it "too much".
|

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:23:00 -
[577] - Quote
Aquila Sagitta wrote:Cheng Chai wrote:The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....
That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi) Have fun trying to active tank without cap Sleeper neuts hurt 
Notice the 'ASB' there? |

Jam Kirk
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:23:00 -
[578] - Quote
Moroccan Tourist wrote:Who give a **** about carebears and their L4s , although incursion might become popular again . And I'm theocrafting a shield Paladin  I'm sure carebears care |

Infiltrator2112
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:26:00 -
[579] - Quote
QT McWhiskers wrote:Also the skill should just be tactical weapon reconfiguration. (That way dread pilots will have a reason to level their siege skill to 5.)
Because T2-Siege is definately not a reason.
U wot mate? |

Vendrin
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:33:00 -
[580] - Quote
Seems like a one trick pony. I like the concept, but tankiness doesn't do much for a ship with 0 mobility, as it will just be instablapped by dreads than.
You want to make marauders interesting, give them an anti capital role when they go bastion. |
|

Klingon Admiral
Black Hole Cluster
72
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:40:00 -
[581] - Quote
RIP Paladin, one more nail in PvE-Armortanking's coffin |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:42:00 -
[582] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:This still leaves Marauders in a crap spot being basically everything the new T2 ships are not supposed to be. They have a solution here as things stand and it seems to be fairly popular so why shove them back to the drawing board just because you don't like that a ship-class has "baggage".
It's not like this is their first prototype iteration, this is what they came up with after crossing off lots of high-concept and probably even fairly fleshed out ideas. It's then been refined to the point that they were ready to show it to us as a first-pass, and your argument is... that you don't like the ship model? Take it up with the art department.
The problem is that they're trying to shove marauders into a niche that doesn't exist so they can stand by their crappy "tech 2 are specialized and worse than pirate ships" picture.
I wish they had never made that picture because it has caused more harm than good. "Specialization" makes sense when you're talking about EWAR, interdiction, and cloaky ships, but what the hell is the difference between a "specialized" brawler/kiter ship and a more generic brawler kiter ship? Did CCP somehow forget that blood raiders ships are highly specialized in cap warfare when making the more general comment?
And while I'm ranting about that stupid ass picture what about the entire tech 3 confusion. Tech 3 ships are highly specialized to train for, they take more effort to collect materials for, they require specific and highly specialized industry skills to research and build, and on top of that they're expensive to construct and they're the only ship type that you lose skill points for getting blown up in and yet they're going to make them "more general." WTF does that even mean to be "more general.".
If you've looked at the tiericide re-balance you can see how their little picture hasn't cleared anything up. There are specialized T1/faction/T2 ships, and there are general T1/faction/T2 ships. Every time they've attempted to apply the specialized role to a T2 brawler ships they've failed horribly.
So please, stop referencing that god damn picture. It's a waste of server space when used as a reference of how ships should be balanced. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:49:00 -
[583] - Quote
U should think about it if u want it a pve or pvp ship and bring the Bonuses in one Line.
For PVE boost the Tractor Range to the Jump Range ak 120km and give it a salvage or salvage drone Bonus
For PVP Remove Tractor Bonus and give it Optimal and not Falloff (Missiles get a Optimal since their Nature)
Vargurs doing in the actual state around 500 dps once they go over around 30km Range so even with absurd Falloff Bonus i would have to fit Artys to use it with Bastion ...
And Really Blasters with 60km Falloff ??? also no(read under half) Dps at around 30 km even with that bonuses
most extreme examples CNR - correctly Rigged fittet 1k DPs from point blank to 250km (cruise and above) Vindicator 1,8k dps to 25km
Marauders (2 skill more ! marauders and the new x8 (read 8 times longer) skill ) not even near these numbers and dont forget BS to 5
why should i take that long training detour for those Bonuses its not viable
u will Kill a complete Class in PVE( exept golem maybe) (For everyone who understands APPLIED not Paper DPS)
In PVP these might have a use for the AT and maybe in wh but fleet scale its rather uninteresting because
without logistics they die (yeah could u use the other bonuses)
In conlusion change the Bonuses that it is 1 SHIP not 4 Half SHIPS
Make it a PVE Boat (salvage/tractor bonuses) OOOORRR A Mini Dread forget about tractors and give it a damage!! Bonus so they might actually used at Pos shoots or something..
I knew u wouldnt Fix the Class u destroy it stomp on it and try to make a new one
and again wtf falloff no damage bonus 100km jumpng around (where the lock range come to my mind will it be boostet?) to do no damage @all until the enemys get back close ?!?!?!
|

Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:51:00 -
[584] - Quote
Do black ops now plz!  |

To mare
Advanced Technology
230
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:52:00 -
[585] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL(name not final)
please keep that name for the skill |

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
244
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:53:00 -
[586] - Quote
Cheng Chai wrote:Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi) Unless something has changed, nothing is being done with ASBs in Ody1.1 - "No change to Small/Medium Deadspace boosters, all sizes of ASBs, Capital boosters, Capital reps". It'll still be able to tank well in Bastion-mode though. Just not as insanely well as you might of hoped. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:53:00 -
[587] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:For PVE boost the Tractor Range to the Jump Range ak 120km and give it a salvage or salvage drone Bonus I always hated the tractor beam bonus on my golem. It was useless as wart on my balls, wasted valuable letters that could've been used for a funny one liner and didn't do anything in the end because of the mere fact that the Noctis exists. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:55:00 -
[588] - Quote
AWW YISS! |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:55:00 -
[589] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:The problem is that they're trying to shove marauders into a niche that doesn't exist so they can stand by their crappy "tech 2 are specialized and worse than pirate ships" picture.
I wish they had never made that picture because it has caused more harm than good. "Specialization" makes sense when you're talking about EWAR, interdiction, and cloaky ships, but what the hell is the difference between a "specialized" brawler/kiter ship and a more generic brawler kiter ship? Did CCP somehow forget that blood raiders ships are highly specialized in cap warfare when making the more general comment?
The difference is that one is a generic ship that can brawl and kite, where as the specialized ship has bonuses specifically tailored to make it a better brawler or kiter. It may be able to do other things but it will likely be ignoring those bonuses if it does. This is shown very clearly in the Command Ships who can completely ignore their link bonuses if they want to but still definitely have a focused role there.
Ersahi Kir wrote:And while I'm ranting about that --------------- picture what about the entire tech 3 confusion. Tech 3 ships are highly specialized to train for, they take more effort to collect materials for, they require specific and highly specialized industry skills to research and build, and on top of that they're expensive to construct and they're the only ship type that you lose skill points for getting blown up in and yet they're going to make them "more general." WTF does that even mean to be "more general.".
T3 ships can do a lot of things but not as well as focused T2 ships. That is exactly what it means. It has nothing to do with the training required to fly them effectively in all of those potential rolls or the cost of the ships.
Ersahi Kir wrote:If you've looked at the tiericide re-balance you can see how their little picture hasn't cleared anything up. There are specialized T1/faction/T2 ships, and there are general T1/faction/T2 ships. Every time they've attempted to apply the specialized role to a T2 brawler ships they've failed horribly.
If you could give specific examples rather than throw out overly general statements that would be great and help me respond to them more effectively. As things stand I don't know what, specifically, you have a problem with.
Ersahi Kir wrote:So please, stop referencing that ------------ picture. It's a waste of server space when used as a reference of how ships should be balanced.
I am sure you have your own ideas on how ships should be balanced, I'm simply reiterating CCP's stated intentions toward ship-re-balancing. Within game-design theory it makes a lot of sense. If you have multiple redundant options then the player-base will gravitate toward whatever they consider to be the best of those options and the others will be ignored.
Giving T2 ships special bonuses rather than having them compete more directly with T1 and Faction ships solves this problem nicely, preserves game-balance, and ensures that we don't get into a power-creep inducing arms race between T2 and Pirate-Faction ships. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:56:00 -
[590] - Quote
and i forgot about null PVE is around ticks more damge more money no one LIKES PVE they do it for pvp
so they will use the efficent one (carries Piratehigh dps or mutibox low maintance solutions like multiple droneboats)
and for missions they are to vast to much flying 30km (no help from mjd) to a gate and something like that spaning @ 100+km
marauders will not shine there (dualprop capinjected targetpainter/tracking computer bs dont tent to have space for tank arent they )
I heard u have a real PVP pro sitting @ the changes where is te guy thats doing pve some time and tells u that u messed up
thats only the pve point the pvp point is in my other post
sandbox is dieing.... |
|

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
398
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:57:00 -
[591] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:but what the hell is the difference between a "specialized" brawler/kiter ship and a more generic brawler kiter ship?
A specialized brawler has skills towards close range abilities, which enhance its close range dps in particular. A good example is Vindicator, whoes web bonus is useless outside brawling range. On the other hand, a generic brawler has skills that enhance close range damage, but can also be used for long range damage. A good example here is Megathron, which is designed as a close range ship, but can be used as a long range one too or a Rokh on the other side, which is specifically a railgun platform, but can be used as a blaster boat too. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:59:00 -
[592] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:and i forgot about null PVE is around ticks more damge more money no one LIKES PVE they do it for pvp
I like PvE, I find it much more relaxing and enjoyable than PvP which tends to be fun, but also stressful and much more mentally taxing. Toward this end I very much like the idea that allows me to pull range and watch as the AI blindly charges into me as I Q [F1] them off the field one at a time. |

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1303
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:00:00 -
[593] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration?
+1
Excellent changes, I am really looking forward to how these will perform in fleets. I do however agree that adding another skill is not necessary if you can tie the use of the Bastion module in to Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration.
o7 Personnel Division Director - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse CEO Sanctuary Pact Alliance --áSanctuary Pact |

To mare
Advanced Technology
230
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:04:00 -
[594] - Quote
tbh if this is the way CCP want to go why not just give the a -x% on fitting req for siege modules :D |

Emmerik
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:05:00 -
[595] - Quote
We don't care about stats that change or modules that a being added. The only thing we want is screenshots of the Bastionmode!!!
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:06:00 -
[596] - Quote
Question: When activated, does Bastion continue to cycle until deactivated? ie: Is there any set time limit, cooldown (etc.) for how long Bastion can run? (since it's not capacitor or fuel dependent) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:08:00 -
[597] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
So..why can't the siegs skill (TWR) simply double dip?
Strontium reduction for siege modules, time reduction for bastion modules.
OR better yet:
Strontium reduction AND time reduction for siege (and bastion - see below) modules, while a the same time increasing base cycle time for siege modules to end up with the same time for skill V. If you also reword the strontium reduction to 10% instead of the flat 25, it would end up being the same value, but you could also apply it to the 0 consumtion of bastion (=large siege, s.b.) modules.
Then rename siege modules to CAPITAL siege modules and bastion modules to LARGE siege modules and you end up with a consistent system. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:08:00 -
[598] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:The capacitor amount number is way off. The current base capacitor is 7031, so one of the two numbers is off.
/my guess is 8000 capacitor is correct, 9406 seems like an extremely strange and not round number
Base capacitor for Paladin: 5625 With Energy Management 5: 7031,25 With Energy Management 5 & Amarr BS 5: 8789,06 (heh, just because you need that Amarr BS 5 just to sit in one and you shouldn't fly battleships without energy management 5)
5625 + 2375 = 8000 |

Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
135
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:13:00 -
[599] - Quote
8 as training time multiplier for the bastion skill is too high. That is the same as for dreads (tactical weapon reconfiguration)... Should be 4-5 at most. I even wonder why a new skill is needed? Why can't the module require level 2 TWR? Would make more sense and give extra reason to train it apart from dread siege mode...
I get you want to add skills but giving all new skills high multipliers "just because" is pointless. You just making it a lot harder for new players to get in a marauder since corps will expect you to have this skill before flying a marauder and to qualify for the SRP. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |

Agent Eagle Zero
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:16:00 -
[600] - Quote
The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin. |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:17:00 -
[601] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.
On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to. Dude. WIth MJD cooldown below minute you can perform V-jump(*) while clearing a room, which sets you up for any accel gate within 5 to 200km range.
(*) Jump out, jump in. Takes a bit of practice but gates have big bounding sphere so there's a margin for error. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
57
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:17:00 -
[602] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. So..why can't the siegs skill (TWR) simply double dip? Strontium reduction for siege modules, time reduction for bastion modules. OR better yet: Strontium reduction AND time reduction for siege (and bastion - see below) modules, while a the same time increasing base cycle time for siege modules to end up with the same time for skill V. If you also reword the strontium reduction to 10% instead of the flat 25, it would end up being the same value, but you could also apply it to the 0 consumtion of bastion (=large siege, s.b.) modules. Then rename siege modules to CAPITAL siege modules and bastion modules to LARGE siege modules and you end up with a consistent system.
As has been mentioned a couple of times in this (admittedly rather long) thread, Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode. It is extremely important for the prosecution of capital warfare that everyone be starting and ending their siege cycles at the same time, otherwise someone with a lower timer may get the "Siege Red!" warning right AFTER their cycle starts up again, meaning they are dead since they can't jump, relocate, ect, and the fleet is not going to go for another cycle just so a few pilots can be saved.
Also since Bastion bears very little resemblance to a Dreadnaught Siege Module this would be very inconsistent and confusing for new players.
While I can certainly get behind less training time overall I also think that having a separate skill is likely required by CCP's code and helps to differentiate Marauders as not being part of the path to Dreadnaughts. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:19:00 -
[603] - Quote
Agent Eagle Zero wrote:The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin.
That would be useless for Mega Pulse Paladin? |

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:19:00 -
[604] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those 
Someone wants to say hallo: click me
I think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie.
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1385
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:22:00 -
[605] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
i'm going to jump in here and throw out my remarks, as they are mostly about pve: - you correctly mentioned that EWAR immunity is a big boon to mission running. together with the massive projection and tank buffs we get from hedgehog mode it makes marauders so strong, there is no more point in flying anything else (including pirate battleships). - if waiting 10 seconds for your TP to finish cycling is annoying, so is waiting 5 seconds. why can't we have a 1s cycle time instead? - while i am not an expert on incursion running, i am a little worried about siege marauder fleets with super high resistance ASB fits. - if you go through with this change in the winter expansion, you will have people crying about how useless the pirate battleships are by 2014/03/01 at the latest. power creep has proven to be bad in other games, let's try and avoid it if we can. - i personally dislike you for having me respec my mission alts into flying fugly marauder hulls, also making them less focused in the process ( ).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
550
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:25:00 -
[606] - Quote
Woh the change sounds... Amazing ? Yeah. The whole siege mode and microjumpdrive thing.
Now I think that the golem should desserve a bit more PW, and a bit more targeting resolution. Waiting for missiles to hit is already a huge waste of time, no need to increase the delay before firing as well...
Also, shouldn't the Vargur have one more med and one less low ? Because it's tank shield AND designed to fit a MJD.
G££ <= Me |

Agent Eagle Zero
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:26:00 -
[607] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Agent Eagle Zero wrote:The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin. That would be useless for Mega Pulse Paladin?
That is the point. Because the Mega Pulse Paladin has such a long optimal range, it would get the full benefit of an optimal range bonus. One kilometer of optimal gives you more range than one kilometer of falloff. An autocannon Vargur would only benefit from a falloff bonus, and thus receive an inferior range bonus. It would be better to make the Bastion module give 25 percent more optimal range and 50 percent more falloff. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:28:00 -
[608] - Quote
Mirrodin wrote:I'm really curious about the application (or removal) of Marauders from the Alliance Tournament after this change.
Doubt that marauders will change in role drastically. Their tank will be very limited in case of ASB-setups, potentially insufficient against a whole team regarding neuts/dps - but totally outstanding with their rangebonus and ewar-immunity. At least this year appeared to include a variety of remote modules and energy transfers to overcome the obstacles of module-limitations etc.
Though the active tank bonus is insane, it's nothing you can't overcome even with a 10ish-man format. Might even be less intimidating than *example* ASB-vindicator with scimi-backup.
To me, they look an awful lot like great at pve (cause who *this gist large-SB is my lvl4 tank*) and weird for pvp. The Bastion module appears impossible to judge without a lot of testing, it is reaching into broken aswell as OP on so many levels :3 "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:29:00 -
[609] - Quote
Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Someone wants to say hallo: click meI think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie.
Do you know how big strotium unit is? 3 m3. Do you really want your cargohold full of those?
Reason why fuel works for Black Ops, Dreads, Carriers, Supers is that they have special fuel bay. |

Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
26
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:33:00 -
[610] - Quote
I'll have to quote my corp mate, Logan Durandal, who recently left the game, on this matter. In a discussion, a few months ago, about the battleship changes, he said to me:
"Why is CCP making everything so clear-cut? Now, whenever you see a battleship, you already know what it's gonna do. I thought battleships were supposed to versatile, with large drone bays, neuts and slots to fit unexpected modules in. Now they're just dps/tank platforms."
I disagreed, saying only because all the ships were equally powerful now, that didn't mean one could not put unexpected fits on them to surprise the opponent. Meanwhile, it has become obvious that he was right and I was wrong. True, it is possible to fit unexpected things on a battleship, but that was never the main point. The main point was, that in a given situation, it used to be possible to fit a ship such that it would be way better than it was expected to be.
Most people thought that, for example, a Raven was a crappy ship, which made it easy to pull some tricks out of your sleeve and destroy those you underestimated you. Now that all the battleships are considered dangerous, this has become much harder. No matter what battleship you're in, people are gonna bring whatever numbers are necessary to kill you and there's nothing you can do about it. Kil2 once said a very intelligent thing in his podcast: "Most people will have a negative performance-vs-expectation. Whereas, when we fly ships like a Ferox, we can get a way positive performance-vs-expectation." Note, this was before the BC rebalance.
This Marauder change will, at least from a small scale pvp standpoint, make this problem much worse for all marauders. With very specialized and unique bonuses, there is no way you can ever surprise anyone. You can MJD around, then stand there, tank insane amounts of damage and eventually die to overwhelming numbers. And everyone knows that is the only thing you can do. So people can just think about what they need to kill you without any losses and bring that in or else not engage you.
Since marauders were never used much in small-scale pvp anyway that is not a huge problem. But it is a good example for the general direction your balancing efforts are going towards. I have been a huge fan of tiericide for the past two years, but maybe you are overdoing it a little. This marauder thing, frankly, sounds terrible to me. In my eyes, gearing a ship so completely towards one very specific playstyle goes against the principles of EVE. You might want to think about where this is going to end. |
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:36:00 -
[611] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Someone wants to say hallo: click meI think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie. Do you know how big strotium unit is? 3 m3. Do you really want your cargohold full of those? Reason why fuel works for Black Ops, Dreads, Carriers, Supers is that they have special fuel bay.
Not sure if beging for strontium bay or not. 
|

Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:37:00 -
[612] - Quote
Might as well just rat in a triage carrier :p
This is going to make null sec ratting with marauders interesting.
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:40:00 -
[613] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: As has been mentioned a couple of times in this (admittedly rather long) thread, Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode. It is extremely important for the prosecution of capital warfare that everyone be starting and ending their siege cycles at the same time, otherwise someone with a lower timer may get the "Siege Red!" warning right AFTER their cycle starts up again, meaning they are dead since they can't jump, relocate, ect, and the fleet is not going to go for another cycle just so a few pilots can be saved.
Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode that is completely new to me. Afaik people are happy the shorter the cycle is. "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
550
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:46:00 -
[614] - Quote
Also for the Golem : 7000 that's -300 from now, not +300 G££ <= Me |

Tess La'Coil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:49:00 -
[615] - Quote
Only real way of sorting out the Noctis vs Marauder is probably giving the Marauders some sort of AoE tractorbeam and Salvager.
Add a bonus to Bastion: "When activated you work like a magnet and pull all wrecks towards you ship in range of your Salvage drones"
Somewhat delayed/slower working than Noctis might be ok.. but atm it's just very gimped compared to a Noctis.
Lloyd Roses wrote:Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode that is completely new to me. Afaik people are happy the shorter the cycle is. Agreed, but as long as everyone is on the same timer.. thus, introducing a requirement to train it to a certain level like Jump Drive Calibration is for Ops. Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother.-á |

fudface
ACME-INC
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:52:00 -
[616] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
have you tested this inside an incursion site?
you nerfed my drones and my web bonus making the paladin and months of my training useless for my main activity in eve.
-1 ccp
i want an opt out of this change and keep my paladin as it is.
|

Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:57:00 -
[617] - Quote
This is a kind of module EVE needs the least. It's especially useless for PvP.
Stop trying to make it better and instead go fix blobs of supercapitals jumping all around the universe in 5 minutes. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:58:00 -
[618] - Quote
Agent Eagle Zero wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Agent Eagle Zero wrote:The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin. That would be useless for Mega Pulse Paladin? That is the point. Because the Mega Pulse Paladin has such a long optimal range, it would get the full benefit of an optimal range bonus. One kilometer of optimal gives you more range than one kilometer of falloff. An autocannon Vargur would only benefit from a falloff bonus, and thus receive an inferior range bonus. It would be better to make the Bastion module give 25 percent more optimal range and 50 percent more falloff.
With double falloff bonus Vargur could hit targets at 90km. Paladin can't get even close to that range with double falloff bonus. |

S1dy
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
32
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:58:00 -
[619] - Quote
Kyang Tia wrote:This Marauder change will, at least from a small scale pvp standpoint, make this problem much worse for all marauders. With very specialized and unique bonuses, there is no way you can ever surprise anyone. You can MJD around, then stand there, tank insane amounts of damage and eventually die to overwhelming numbers. And everyone knows that is the only thing you can do. So people will just think about what they need to kill you without any losses and bring that in, or, failing that, not engage you.
Since marauders were never used much in small-scale pvp anyway that is not a huge problem. But it is a good example for the general direction your balancing efforts are going towards. I have been a huge fan of tiericide for the past two years, but maybe you are overdoing it a little. This marauder thing, frankly, sounds terrible to me. In my eyes, gearing a ship so completely towards one very specific playstyle goes against the principles of EVE. You might want to think about where this is going to end.
Marauders are Tech 2 and therefore specialized ships. All specialized ships are in any way fitted depending which bonuses they provide so everyone is able to expect what he is encountering. There are a few cases these ships use different fittings (such as the blaster falcon for example), but generally it's foreseeable.
This proposed changes are fine. I am Ok with them. It's sad to see they never put that effort into HACs and Command Ships, but oh well...
At least Marauders are looking so fine with this stats, I am already thinking of skilling marauders in the near future. Until now there was no way I would ever do this since they never gave me any advantage for what I would use them for.
|

Stjaerna Ramundson
45
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:01:00 -
[620] - Quote
*waiting for a Drone Marauder* :-/ 1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erkl+ñrung, L+¦sungsans+ñtzen formulieren. 2. Beitrag enth+ñlt eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema. 3. Negative +äu+ƒerungen, Drohungen usw. gegen++ber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen. |
|

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:02:00 -
[621] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Not sure if beging for strontium bay or not. 
Why would you do that when they are finally tweaking Marauders to match their description?
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments" |

SwissChris1
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:04:00 -
[622] - Quote
"Capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate" -This I actually like a lot.
"Deployed mode..." -If the timer isn't > 30 seconds this might be interesting...but still it will limit this ship mostly for PVE duties because in PVP you want to be mobile(ish)
"Stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital" -OK...but then don't introduce a new skill. **** that. It should use the "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" skill. Training a Maurader to all Vs already takes long enough without another Rank 8 skill. Please, please, NO, NOOOOOO |

Deacon Ix
Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:05:00 -
[623] - Quote
Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads)
Bit miffed about the single bonus to Missiles 25% to both Velocity and flight time would seem the way to go
Other wise I love the idea but I don't think it's enough to get them into PvP |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:06:00 -
[624] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
Does it apply to defender missiles too (for example by considerably increased amount of hp each missile got)?.
If bastion module works against tracking disruptors, should work against defenders since both are anti-weapon systems, directly affecting hi slots. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:10:00 -
[625] - Quote
Deacon Ix wrote:Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads)
"Let's obsolete pirate battleships."
No? |

Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:11:00 -
[626] - Quote
imagine if the black ops get a similar bastion mod, like 100% dps  |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:12:00 -
[627] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
First off, working with allies qualifies as effort. Maybe I should have been more specific but generally organizing people, grouping up, and working toward a common goal takes effort.
Second, your idea has absolutely no basis in any sort of live gameplay. You've created this vision in your head of how this is going to work with nothing to back it up.
Basis ... Reality?
Noone in their right minds when think jump-portaling or warping in to smart bombing range....
But..
Back to basis... Small units in /any/ form of combat have roles ....
You mentioned that There has been a lot of frigate fleet experimentation in null sec, and you are exactly right, (I have been participating).
Their effectiveness is broken. Its obvious.
Marauders, (by CCP's new definition of them, "Hit and Run Harassment ...",
CCP Has an opportunity here to give Frigates a chance.
If you personally don't see the opportunities that getting frigates around a battlefield are ... Wormhole Space, FW, etc... Meh.
Then let everyone else try. :)
There really is no reason why CCP can't do an iteration on getting new players more involved, and trying to get all ship roles involved.
Besides, Frigates are by far the funnest ships to pilot. :)
It leads to very complex field operations ... and gets people thinking, rathing than blobbing... But, it is definitely neither here nor there at this point. I have made my case . .. Many times.
o/ |

Violet Winters
Angelic Eclipse.
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:16:00 -
[628] - Quote
The only problem I found with all Marauders is the Sensor Strength, and I don't feel a "Let me just sit here and let you shoot me for a few mins so I can't get jammed" is a very good solution, while the idea is cool I don't see why you can't just increase the Sensor Strength so the Bastion Module isn't totally necessary for PVP without getting dunked by a griffin.... CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
|

Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
381
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:17:00 -
[629] - Quote
Dear CCP
Instead of introducing a new skill, please use the existing skills "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" or "Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration" (or both). This will introduce interesting cross training opportunities and eliminate a "1 ship wonder" skill which seems like a pointless SP sink. |

Violet Winters
Angelic Eclipse.
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:19:00 -
[630] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Dear CCP
Instead of introducing a new skill, please use the existing skills "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" or "Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration" (or both). This will introduce interesting cross training opportunities and eliminate a "1 ship wonder" skill which seems like a pointless SP sink.
or just use the Marauders Skill considering this module is only going to be used on that class of Ship. CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
|
|

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:20:00 -
[631] - Quote
missile bonus should be explosion radius or exp velocity cruises are already @ over any other range and torps ... are obsolute after last missile "rebalance". the defender thing is a point my ewar immunity should cover it..
and again vargur to the guy that stated vargur can do damage to 90km with autocannons look @ a damage graph learn what falloff is and then understand and then only then post again about how imba falloff boni might be
|

Silenciel
Penguins at school
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:27:00 -
[632] - Quote
At least, theses high end PVE BS are still not high end ships in high end PVE (WH, Incursion). (High BS because of skills : BS skills are lvl 8, marauder is lvl 10)
So, why not a new serie of marauders with the tier 3 hull with bonus like Armor/Shield transfer and/or abilities to lower the bad effects on both WH and incursion ?
And for the actual Marauders, like others said, tractor beam bonus is nonsense (micro jump drive bonus) and outdated (Noctis). |

Aaron Kyoto
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:29:00 -
[633] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos And you guys wonder why small ships are irrelevant in actual fights. Don't be mad Trouser. As for this whole change I like it! Just give the Kronos it's web bonus back 
He does realize this thing is going to get owned by stealth bombers, right?
Stationary with a massive mass and signiture. Yeah.
Personally I love the changes. I've been advocating turning marauders into siegeable ships for some time. Also means with their very specific applications, they can excell at them. Ie; Need something soft but irriating taken down? (Falcon much?) Bastion time!
Also means you could actually buffer fit it with some insane tank and take the damage application role as opposed to actual raw damage. Would certainly work on anything that relies on EWar or distance to tank. |

Sabriz Adoudel
Oppan Ganknam Style
716
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:32:00 -
[634] - Quote
Oh I like this a lot.
Still, I'd like to see an alternative to Bastion mode (using a different module, that cannot be fitted at the same time as the Bastion module) that allows the ship to serve an anti-POS role for places where dreadnoughts are not an option (C1-3 wormholes and highsec). Miner euthanization expert. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
550
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:32:00 -
[635] - Quote
Why not boosting the role bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams so that it matches the targeting range of those ships (around 100km) ? Because now that the PvE Marauder is expected to stay at 0m/s while fighting, and that his max velocity has been reduced, it sounds like a reasonable change...
Also :
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Oh I like this a lot.
Still, I'd like to see an alternative to Bastion mode (using a different module, that cannot be fitted at the same time as the Bastion module) that allows the ship to serve an anti-POS role for places where dreadnoughts are not an option (C1-3 wormholes and highsec).
THIS => GÖÑ G££ <= Me |

Ra Chel
Imperial Logistics And Research
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:33:00 -
[636] - Quote
Me don't like the new changes! Moar dps please! |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:34:00 -
[637] - Quote
Think a lot of people are underestimating just how insane the tank on these is going to be. It will have it's uses in small fleet PvP. Burst tank on the Vargur in particular is going to be up their with triage archons based on some quick number crunching.
For those saying "but everyone will run away and you can't keep them pointed whilst in Bastion" - have you not got friends to hold tackle for you? It'll be a really interesting game mechanic in non blob warfare. Similar to blap dreads + support fleets in WH, but without the ability to insta pop everything. The only counters to them would be huge blobs, lots of neuts (don't forget the huge cargo bays Marauders have for cap boosters) or bringing Dreads to melt them in good time.
I'm looking forward to seeing these on Sisi, but gut feel at the moment is that they're going to be really powerful for both PvE and PvP in relatively small gang warfare. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1130
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:35:00 -
[638] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server 
The Kronos is about to get a silly tank boost in 1.1 that puts me over the 2.5k per 8.8 second cycle mark.
This change is going to knock that up to a 5k cycle. On top of that you're saying I can hit 55-60k with a blap setup?
Well, you've certainly killed off the debate for faction BS's being the best mission ships. There's no way Machariels and the like can stand up to these new PvE Overlords. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Deacon Ix
Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:36:00 -
[639] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Deacon Ix wrote:Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads) "Let's obsolete pirate battleships." No?
Maybe / Maybe not
my point being that for a ship that size the local tank bonus isn't enough to offset not being able to receive RR in PvP, so in order to make the deployed mode a viable option in PvP there needs to be an incentive to go into it.
Basically if dreads didn't get a damage bonus siege mode wouldn't be used
and Pirate BS will still have the Damage and mobility and some fairly decent secondary bonuses (Webs and Neuts on those particular ones) and I vary rarely see the Mach, RS and NM in PvP anyway as there are now cheaper ships which are just as good. |

Aaron Kyoto
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:36:00 -
[640] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Why not boosting the role bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams so that it matches the targeting range of those ships (around 100km) ? Because now that the PvE Marauder is expected to stay at 0m/s while fighting, and that his max velocity has been reduced, it sounds like a reasonable change... Also : Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Oh I like this a lot.
Still, I'd like to see an alternative to Bastion mode (using a different module, that cannot be fitted at the same time as the Bastion module) that allows the ship to serve an anti-POS role for places where dreadnoughts are not an option (C1-3 wormholes and highsec). THIS => GÖÑ
Or you could MJD closer? :P |
|

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:40:00 -
[641] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:
For those saying "but everyone will run away and you can't keep them pointed whilst in Bastion" - have you not got friends to hold tackle for you?
If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?
So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob. |

Silver Getsuga
Real Enemy Academy SOLAR WING
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:42:00 -
[642] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:missile bonus should be explosion radius or exp velocity cruises are already @ over any other range and torps ... are obsolute after last missile "rebalance". the defender thing is a point my ewar immunity should cover it..
and again vargur to the guy that stated vargur can do damage to 90km with autocannons look @ a damage graph learn what falloff is and then understand and then only then post again about how imba falloff boni might be
Yeah, right http://i.imgur.com/3nYyizN.png |

sXyphos
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:44:00 -
[643] - Quote
Meh, i suppose this makes them interesting but i'm not gonna bother to train for them just for being "interesting"  But who knows, if they transform into a huge ass GUN as the hull maybe some people will get them (Kronos? ) |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:45:00 -
[644] - Quote
I trhink Marauders are fine how they are, execpt the sensor strenght, a bit more dps and maybe a salvager bonus too. If you want to make these ship class viable in pvp, you first have to lower the price or make them more unreplaceable for any fleet.
What when you add not only one Bastion mode (i dont like the idea with basion anyways). For example: Modul 1: (short range) +Tractor range/speed + massiv more dps and tracking + local tank + Web Bonus
Modul 2: (long range) + range/falloff increase + more ehp + boost long range weapon systems (maybe more ROF or DPS) + targeting range and speed
Modul 3: (Fleet version) + ability to be remote repaired/anergy transfer gained + massivley more ehp + sig lowerd + scan resolution and senor strength enourmus buffed
Thats only t2 moduls that can be fitted in a high slot and don't need any new skill, the marauder can choose it's role in PVE or PVP. What do you think? |

Ra Chel
Imperial Logistics And Research
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:45:00 -
[645] - Quote
anyone good at math can say the range for fury torps on a golem?
Thanks. |

Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:52:00 -
[646] - Quote
Golem - fitted with torps won't profit much from 25% range increase because the ship itself will be stationary - it NEEDS more CPU to be fitted properly, do the math - salvager and tractor beam bonusses (and slots btw) are things from the past - change it
|

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
485
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:52:00 -
[647] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about converting tactical logistics reconfiguration to a percentage reduction in fuel use, adding a fuel bay to marauders, using heavy water as originally considered?
It would be nice to have a better range bonus for tractors, along with tractor speed and salvager cycle time or salvage chance when the bastion is active. A marauder could have the same range as a Noctis without being too efficient since the Noctis has more tractors, more salvagers, and is more likely to have salvage tackle fitted. If the marauder can't salvage the wrecks created at maximum range while en-bastion-ed, that kinda reduces the attractiveness of this ship for PvE. Even a 200% bonus to range will still make salvaging in a marauder more attractive :)
And those that don't have Tactical Reconfiguration trained will have to train that. At least this levels the playing field for this "New" adaptation of the Marauder Class coming in a bit. I think it's a good thing not to increase complexity on a ship that doesn't require it by it's very definition:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments,"
You start adding fuel and it shortens the "prolonged deployment". Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Cydonia Davaham
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:58:00 -
[648] - Quote
Zero speed and no RR makes them death in almost any kind of engagements, especially in those engagements where the bs-sized hulls are used. They should be allowed to move unable to use mjd/mwd/ab and warp, you already slowed them down so those 90-100 m/s shouldn't be a problem but let them survive at least a volley from a dread. Salvager and tractor beam bonuses are useless in a stationary ship that should snipe. |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:58:00 -
[649] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote: If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?
So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.
Correct, the enemy would be trying to get rid of your tackle - as you've forced their hand in making it the only valid target. Whilst in general it might be a case that you'd ignore the paper thin tackle ship and get rid of some incoming dps or logi should you aim to remain in the fight and win.
Lets say you're in a 10v10 fight, one or 2 of these landing on grid from one side are going to bring in Ewar and effectively dps immune projected damage that can be applied on the enemies. They deal decent damage, you can't stop them doing that damage, you can't kill them quickly - they force your hand to either retreat, or completely rethink the target calling. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
117
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:00:00 -
[650] - Quote
I'm sad to see the web bonus go on the Kronos, I think this is a mistake.
I hate the fact the web strength bonus has been morphed into a 'Serpentis' bonus when it is a key requirement of a *good* blaster platform, and has been from the start of the game. Also that, despite what GÇÿyoungstersGÇÖ here might say, it has absolutely nothing to do with 'Minmatar technology' (The Kronos bonus pre-dates the Vindicator one by a couple of years).
Though, overall, very interesting times ahead.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
76
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:06:00 -
[651] - Quote
I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistence? |

GreenSeed
670
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:08:00 -
[652] - Quote
i see a trend here... does this mean the vindi will lose the -90% webs when the rebalance hits pirate ships?
please say it will... the current meta for incursions is complete ****. people just blast trough the sites without even considering alternatives to the fleets... all because of the damn -90% webs allowing **** tracking to work.
there was a moment around 6 months after incursions were introduced, where incursion fleets were very interesting, with huginns on grid, lokis, etc etc. now days its so bland and boring that you will see Scimitars with FIVE links... FIVE. that's how easy incursions are...
losing the -90% webs on all ships would definitely make marauders viable for incursions.... but if vindis remain what they are... incursion HQ fleets will continue to be 20 vindis, 10 nightmares/machs and the rest logis.
boring.
either get rid of the -90% webs, or give the sansha a resistance to webs. |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:09:00 -
[653] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote: If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?
So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.
Correct, the enemy would be trying to get rid of your tackle - as you've forced their hand in making it the only valid target. Whilst in general it might be a case that you'd ignore the paper thin tackle ship and get rid of some incoming dps or logi should you aim to remain in the fight and win. Lets say you're in a 10v10 fight, one or 2 of these landing on grid from one side are going to bring in Ewar and effectively dps immune projected damage that can be applied on the enemies. They deal decent damage, you can't stop them doing that damage, you can't kill them quickly - they force your hand to either retreat, or completely rethink the target calling. Yea thats the truth. But i think the discussion startet at the point where ur solo Marauder stands against a bunch of enemies. And in this situation the best thing they can do is to gettin out of your scrams, what shouldn be to difficult because of your siege mode, and then gettin out the hell here.
So yea. Ur Friends can fix this but still then everyone with common sense would prime your tackling ships and would run away.
Or else they have enough manpower to **** your siege tank. But thats a completely other situation and in that case u will be dead anyway. |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:12:00 -
[654] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistence? This would make a whole lot of sense without any major downsides imo. Leave the Bastion mod giving the 100% repair amount, but make the resists somewhat native with the ship. This way the non-bastion fits will be able to get decent RR and function in larger fleets and the Bastion will offer the benefits to smaller fleets which are often more down to a mix of e-war and tactics than just outright damage dealing. |

Bakuhz
The Horny Heron's
116
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:14:00 -
[655] - Quote
adopt wrote:Anyone else think that their Paladin is going to go "vertical"
huehuehuehue
i want one ^^
http://rakah.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=%3CBakuhz
Recruiting PvP minded pilot's new pilot friendly teachers available in various timezones |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
117
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:17:00 -
[656] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. I've just seen this..... ugh
Sorry Ytterbium, but do you actually know how to pilot a close range ship?.... 
I have to wonder if there are any 'blasterthron' vets left, mine's been parked for best part of 5 years doing bugger all.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:24:00 -
[657] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistence? This would make a whole lot of sense without any major downsides imo. Leave the Bastion mod giving the 100% repair amount, but make the resists somewhat native with the ship. This way the non-bastion fits will be able to get decent RR and function in larger fleets and the Bastion will offer the benefits to smaller fleets which are often more down to a mix of e-war and tactics than just outright damage dealing.
Given that you fit your ship accordingly to it's usage, such a shift would (imo) enable it to perform as a Heavy Assault Battleship with lower buffer, less speed - but awesome resilence under RR given a resistancefit without active (and while fitting dual-eccm durrr) or even fitting that bastionmodule, or as whatever exactly it is they will do in a pvp situation using that mod (fortifying next to a gate/wormhole or jumping around sniping things with cruises or artillery I'd guess) when fitted for active tanking.
I highly doubt one could fit up a marauder to the same resilence to sentry/alphafleets a rokh, baddon, mega or maelstrom could achieve, so they surely wouldn't be a plain improvement everywhere. Just shifting those resistances out of bastion VIP a little to enable both styles to justify your buck. "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
578
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:26:00 -
[658] - Quote
This has probably already been mentioned here, but in case it wasn't: You will have to make sure that the new Marauders cannot jump through wormholes when in Bastion mode. That would be extremely disruptive to wormhole pvp. (We know that dreads/carriers in siege/triage cannot jump through wormholes, but I believe this is only because they exceed max jump mass when deployed.)
Having a BS that can close holes like a carrier may sound attractive, but what would happen is that a single battleship could rescue a large fleet when things go bad, or trap an opposing fleet. Right now, you can make sure that capitals cannot be warped at 0 to a hole and close it on you by putting bubbles up. Capitals don't have the mobility to cross a bubble and get to the hole in a short time. The Marauder however will be able warp at range, MJD to the hole, deploy and close it in one round trip. . |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
485
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:29:00 -
[659] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Will the Bastion module be high slot? Or are we going to see a clear bias against shield or armour fleets when it turns out to be a mid or low slot?
They said they're adding an extra High Slot to accommodate so I'd guess, mmm this could be awkward, that it's a High Slot Module:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Galdamon
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:35:00 -
[660] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:I trhink Marauders are fine how they are, execpt the sensor strenght, a bit more dps and maybe a salvager bonus too. If you want to make these ship class viable in pvp, you first have to lower the price or make them more unreplaceable for any fleet.
What when you add not only one Bastion mode (i dont like the idea with basion anyways). For example: Modul 1: (short range) +Tractor range/speed + massiv more dps and tracking + local tank + Web Bonus
Modul 2: (long range) + range/falloff increase + more ehp + boost long range weapon systems (maybe more ROF or DPS) + targeting range and speed
Modul 3: (Fleet version) + ability to be remote repaired/anergy transfer gained + massivley more ehp + sig lowerd + scan resolution and senor strength enourmus buffed
Thats only t2 moduls that can be fitted in a high slot and don't need any new skill, the marauder can choose it's role in PVE or PVP. What do you think?
+1 i can choose the role |
|

Janeway84
Masters Of Destiny Pride Before Fall
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:39:00 -
[661] - Quote
Rowells wrote:would it be possible to add a script to the bastion that allows you to choose between range/damage application and actual damage?
+1
Also Please not nerf the drone bay. And why so low sensor strenght on them still, i can see you want people to use the bastion mod but i think you shouldnt penalize people flying it in jamheavy enviroments.
Any chance you could have scripts to choose if you want better tank or better dmg/tracking or Ewar immunity instead of a everything in 1? Would make it more tactical to use then imo. replace tractor beam bonus with web range bonus and web strenght bonus.
I dont care much if its fuel or no fuel for the mod but i think its a bit overkill to introduce new skill to fit the bastion mod. 
T2 resists would be very nice if you added to those very expesive and long to train for ships.
Otherwise i think the main ideas are great and daring wich will prob make players invent new ways to use the marauders in.
Will the marauder be untargeted by Pos Ecm when in bastion mode?  |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1251
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:39:00 -
[662] - Quote
I think its awesome. .. people ***** for years that cpp does not care about interal reps... and now that they made an awesome solo tanking beast people are bitching its not5 good for rr... ffs There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
139
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:40:00 -
[663] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. So..why can't the siegs skill (TWR) simply double dip? Strontium reduction for siege modules, time reduction for bastion modules. OR better yet: Strontium reduction AND time reduction for siege (and bastion - see below) modules, while a the same time increasing base cycle time for siege modules to end up with the same time for skill V. If you also reword the strontium reduction to 10% instead of the flat 25, it would end up being the same value, but you could also apply it to the 0 consumtion of bastion (=large siege, s.b.) modules. Then rename siege modules to CAPITAL siege modules and bastion modules to LARGE siege modules and you end up with a consistent system. As has been mentioned a couple of times in this (admittedly rather long) thread, Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode. It is extremely important for the prosecution of capital warfare that everyone be starting and ending their siege cycles at the same time, otherwise someone with a lower timer may get the "Siege Red!" warning right AFTER their cycle starts up again, meaning they are dead since they can't jump, relocate, ect, and the fleet is not going to go for another cycle just so a few pilots can be saved.
BASE cycle time increase + reduction at skill V = exactly the same cycle time as now. It wouldn't be the firs skill that needs to be V before you're considered fleet-valid.
Quote: Also since Bastion bears very little resemblance to a Dreadnaught Siege Module this would be very inconsistent and confusing for new players.
Little resemblance? - ship cannot move - ship cannot be repped - ship gets a substantial boost
Sounds pretty similar to me.,
Quote: While I can certainly get behind less training time overall I also think that having a separate skill is likely required by CCP's code and helps to differentiate Marauders as not being part of the path to Dreadnaughts.
They will resemble a similar step, one from capital ships (where admittedly there IS no neutral basis), one from batleships. |

Mooer
Xoth Inc
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:42:00 -
[664] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistance? reduce bastion resistance? where do you get that? it GAINS 30% more resistance in shield, armor ANd hull. and being combines with dcII, thats 72% resistance in hull for when it hits the fan.
and a paladin with an AAR will rep 1850 plus every 11.25 seconds with marauder 5. that x2 is over 3700 armor in pimp mode every 11.25 seconds. this is before adding the damnation or astarte bonus in or the changes in local rep amounts. so this will be around 4800 armor every 11.25 seconds on a local rep with a fleet up.
thats a shyt load of nastiness. all that + 4 tachyons that can hit at about 200k in beast mode, the ability to jump with mjd every minute to escape being pummeled?
they have to scram you, not 2 point you. they have to scram you, not infinipoint you from a hic. not bubbled, but scram you to jam the mjd.
i have no comment on the pg on the golem yet, i havent run the numbers myself.
but 5k pg on the vargur is something. 1400mm arties, with the vargurs fall off, 2 gyro's, 2 te II's, and beast mode (tracking bonus, fall off AND optimal bonus) makes it a 200k sniper from hell. and with the paladins range bonus from the apoc, beast mode and tachyons, yer talking about hitting someone with 10 tachyons from 200k for ugly damage. that x5 marauders is a helluva welcoming party.
and think about it..one doesnt have to train anything to continue to fly the marauders. they received a boost to their scan res, so they lock quicker, more grid, more cpu on some and some kewl other bonuses.
the paly kept the cap bonus and gained range. thats almost 120k mega pulse with scorch with a 30% bonus to tracking?
i cant see why peeps are upset. other than just being disgruntled and raving to hear themselves type. |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
168
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:00:00 -
[665] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Wait... this requires the safeties to be turned off? Eww. Can that be changed? |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:02:00 -
[666] - Quote
Deacon Ix wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Deacon Ix wrote:Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads) "Let's obsolete pirate battleships." No? Maybe / Maybe not my point being that for a ship that size the local tank bonus isn't enough to offset not being able to receive RR in PvP, so in order to make the deployed mode a viable option in PvP there needs to be an incentive to go into it. Basically if dreads didn't get a damage bonus siege mode wouldn't be used and Pirate BS will still have the Damage and mobility and some fairly decent secondary bonuses (Webs and Neuts on those particular ones) and I vary rarely see the Mach, RS and NM in PvP anyway as there are now cheaper ships which are just as good.
Yes, for PvP. You have to also think that it will be used for PvE too. For example Paladin already does a bit over 1k dps with Tachs + Gleam. That's ~50 dps behind Tach NM with Navy Multi. It already has far better active tank than NM.
While it would be nice to have in PvP it would be massive buff to already good ships in PvE. Only Pirate ship that could compete dps wise against most Marauders would be Vindi. |

Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:10:00 -
[667] - Quote
Love it. Advanced weapons upgrade 5 and Gal. battleship 5 are next in the que.
Do miss the drones though. |

Lathaniel
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:10:00 -
[668] - Quote
Sigh this makes marauders even less relevant in pvp and is totally not needed for pve since as far as i know they don't need any help there. All marauders need is a sensor strength equal or slightly higher than t1 bs of the same hull and some fitting buffs for some of them and they are relevant in pvp for small to medium sized pvp.
a non moving bs is either a dead bs no matter how much tank it has or just ignored |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1484
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:14:00 -
[669] - Quote
I am usually not the one to ask this, but we could use these on the test server ASAP there seems to be a lot of issues that need to be worked out. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
204
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:15:00 -
[670] - Quote
omg omg omg
now I'm REALLY glad that new Apoc model made me train for Mauraders
give it to me Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
264
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:18:00 -
[671] - Quote
So, just for fun, I have knocked up a little cyno bait vargur fit in pyfa - this uses existing stats: [Vargur, bait]
Damage Control II Expanded Cargohold II x 4
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 x 3 EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x 2
Cynosural Field Generator I
Large Cargohold Optimization II Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Stats: BEFORE OVERHEATING AND IMPLANTS Constant tank (1.5 ASBs) 1689 cargohold capacity: 3650 Number of Navy 400 charges: 228 plus in the boosters 21 Total Navy 400 charges 249
Boost per charge (HP) 1482 average resists 76.0750.76075 EHP per charge 6194.357367 Total EHP from charges 1542394.984 Base EHP 64100 TOTAL EFFECTIVE HP 1606494.984
So this is a 1.6M hitpoint cyno bait ship, before considering bastion mode.
If you switch on bastion mode, the constant tank becomes 3.3k and total effective hitpoints come to around 4.4 million. More than a carrier.
Note that this is just a T2 fit. No links, no implants. With crystal and blue pill we're looking at closer to 8 million effective hitpoints. Add some faction hardeners and it's more like 10 million.
I'll say that again. 10 million effective hitpoints.
I was under the impression we wanted to get rid of this kind of thing from the game?
Please take this nonsense back to the drawing board.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Alsyth
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:19:00 -
[672] - Quote
Pretty bad imo.
In low/null-sec: true dreads will eat them for breakfast. Don't even need tracking mods or 90% webs to alpha them.
In hi-sec: station huggers will be delighted. Good enough self rep, immune to ewar... This is an horrible thing.
Your hate for Caldari and missiles really is annoying. Torpedoes have yet to be fixed, and Cruise will not benefit from a range bonus. |

NinjaStyle
hirr RAZOR Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:25:00 -
[673] - Quote
Increased cruise missile range golem?!?! OMFG thats SOOOO good! I can't even IMAGINE how good this is because there is no WAY you can hit really far out with Cruise missiles! NOT A CHANCE!
(SARCASM in ON in this post!)
dont even get me started with how dumb it sounds with a unfittable torp golem with 25% torp velocity...... |

Darirol
Origin. Black Legion.
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:29:00 -
[674] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:[list] BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
you guys know that damage control is not "immune" to stacking penalty instead it is just on another penalty table.
if you fit damage control and that phasing armor hardner you actually get a stacking penalty. if you guys are lazy and putthat fancy marauder bonus in the same "non stacking penalty table" as damage control and phasing armor hardner on ofthose 3 modules get a 40% stacking penalty.
maybe a good time to make those non stacking penalty bonuses working in the way they are supposed. |

Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
372
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:29:00 -
[675] - Quote
As someone who spent the last year preparing my perfect fit Vargur, not going to lie this sucked at first glance.
However, in the end I think I'll be happy with the changes.
My only request, PLEASE call it a Tactical Siege Module, it won't confuse new players at all, and by the time someone can pilot a freaking Dreadnought they shouldn't be able to make a mistake like mixing the two up. "I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |

Din Chao
351
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:31:00 -
[676] - Quote
Shut up and show us the animations, NOW! |

Cassius Longinus
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:31:00 -
[677] - Quote
I can't see a good way to comp these in a small gang PVP sense... they seem fairly niche. Without a pretty significant damage bonus over other BS, I'm going to generally prefer the grid flexibility of the alternatives.
As someone else mentioned, they will make fairly good cyno bait.
Furthermore, you can't with one breath say they bridge the gap to capitals, and then with another not reuse those skills. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:33:00 -
[678] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:In hi-sec: station huggers will be delighted. Good enough self rep, immune to ewar... This is an horrible thing.
Try to dock when you have weapon flag... |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:33:00 -
[679] - Quote
Dear CCP
I Love the idea of the bastion module however i think you need to give it more thought and variety
Firstly just like siege and triage mods there should be a T1 and T2 version
I think the ships should rely on the module not just have it there to boost themselves
The Guns on the ship should be Scaled up + down at the same time, i.e capital guns but only 2 can be fitted to each ship so they would have
Id also like to see 2 types of Bastion module, one to be more DPS based the other tank based, as these ships will need the tanking role for PVE (great for incursions if you ask me) but the DPS role for PVP, and currently these ships have no where near enough DPS, or just a damage bonus on the module (not a big one 20% would be good)
The cycle time is a bit too long for a ship with as much ehp as these id like to see a 10% per-level reduction to bastion module cycle time, as all its going to take is 1 tracking dread on field and your doomed with 60 seconds sitting there
Also i think that while the bastion module is activated it should mean you take 15% more Heat damage from modules
One Final question why is the golem the only one to be left with a ewar buff, if one has it all should, therefore i think it should be swapped for a 10% bonus to explosion radius |

Dalphon Haman
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:33:00 -
[680] - Quote
CCP Wow I do not know where to begin. For starters I don't think this is a bad idea, I just think with such a role overhaul why didn't they just make these using the Tier 3 BS Hull? Because honestly you are adding a new ship, and taking another out of the game.
Marauders are long haul training plan for a PvE ship, and an expensive hull. Now you're pulling the rug out. You are almost completely taking that role away. The Kronos loosing its web? Why. So now to hit anything smaller than a BC that gets close I have to MJD 100km out to kill it, except now to salvage the wreck I have to wait a minute to come out of bastion, then MJD back to the wreck because you are not increasing the tractor beam range??? Did no one think of that? Why even keep the tractor beam bonus if you are trying to encourage people to fight from outside the range? You're nerfing the drone BW/bays on top of losing the web bonus is going to make it a pain to kill the small stuff. You mentioned that blaster falloff was reaching 55-60 with null on the internal test server. Well If I need to hit that far I'll be using Rails. Why do Rails need anymore range? What is that going to do for me? I also do not really care about the wow tanking. Marauders tank pretty great already. I just don't get it.
I just don't think this is the balance Marauders needed. |
|

Grunnax Aurelius
The Horny Heron's
199
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:37:00 -
[681] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:I really didn't expect this! Interesting - won't help me for PvE though!
EDIT - WOW - this is my first ever First :)) wont help pve, dude it still has combat salvage and in siege it has more tank, quit b i t c h i n g Marauder: 1 Subsystem to Modulate the Role they Fulfil: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=271219 |

Sougiro Seta
please be in W-Space
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:37:00 -
[682] - Quote
Main point I strongly disagree: drone bandwidth and so reduction. Nonsense, terrible nerf for pve runners. Ships requesting almost 2 months extra training from pirate BS's cannot deal less dps and have also SUCH a difference in drones. |

Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
43
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:37:00 -
[683] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: ...previous stuff...
However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
NEWS: CCP Ytterbium is changing "The Blockade" to have 1346454 NPCs!!! It is here, you all can see it!!! |

GAR0
Bulgarian Space Adventures
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:38:00 -
[684] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
These are my questions too |

Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
529
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:44:00 -
[685] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus. The EWAR immunity alone is going to make these the go to ships for PvE mission runners. No more being permajammed by ECM spam or damped down to 1km targeting range by NPC frigates orbiting you at 250km. This is a really, really nice bonus to have on a subcap ship.
I don't know enough to say how these are going to work out in PvP, but for PvE at least you made some already reasonably good ships a whole lot better in a thoughtful and interesting way. Among all the balancing changes so far, this one stands out next to the Tech 1 cruiser renaissance as one of the truly great outcomes.
Good job. EvE is supposed to suck.-á Wait . . . what was the question? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:44:00 -
[686] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I'll say that again. 10 million effective hitpoints.
By the same token cap stable active tanking ship has infinite EHP. And your point is?
It still can be alpha'd. |

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
204
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:49:00 -
[687] - Quote
guys guys guys
all four hulls have undergone re-models relatively recenetly
which means that they most likely designed the new models with the intent of new animations
which means that they've know about this change all along
basically what I'm trying to say is ccp faked the moon landing Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |

El Geo
Pathfinders.
161
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:51:00 -
[688] - Quote
Volitaire wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Volitaire wrote:I'm getting rather tired of every ship 'upgrade' having a new, or multiple, associated skills go along with it. This may not be the thread for it, but why? There are definitely people running out of things to train and -- let's face it -- this one in particular is far from a mandatory skill for most purposes. Unless you make a habit of removing high sec towers it seems pretty niche. CCP is intentionally adding skills to increase training time to effectively use old ships, mods, etc. Instead, they should just roll the 'bastion' skillbook into say, Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration, as it serves the exact same function.
To be fair they may very well do that, although I would imagine the skill book for marauders to take less time to train Also, like the idea but feel a damage rather than range bonus's would be more suitable (becuase 'highsec pos') path-+find-+er (pthfndr, p+ñth-)n. 1. One that discovers a new course or way, especially through or into unexplored regions.
http://www.youtube.com/user/EvEPathfinders/videos?view=0 |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:52:00 -
[689] - Quote
Now we need a way to watch the microjump drive cooldown delay. G££ <= Me |

Alundil
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
293
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:53:00 -
[690] - Quote
I like this idea for marauders. Spice things up a bit. Nice job. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
|

Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2297
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:55:00 -
[691] - Quote
ok, firstly, whoever came up with 'bastion' as the name needs to be banned from naming things from now on.
that said, changes look cool. one thing though, please just fix their sensor strengths. i mean come on, they need to still be usable out of tactical siege mode (i aint calling it bastion....seriously...no...) |

jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
233
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:57:00 -
[692] - Quote
May have been asked but I don't have time to read every page: Will they be able to jump through a WH while "bastion"ed? I only ask because the mass restrictions on capital holes right now will not stop one of these, so they basically become spectacular instacrashers able to toggle mass between BS and Carrier sized. I for one will be using this to trap my enemies at every opportunity if it's left open. |

Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
50
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:58:00 -
[693] - Quote
Dear CCP,
watching the way you introduce ship balancing. PVP scenarios you are describing in your posts to justify changes for some ships, they are really outdated. It looks to me that your approach while balancing ship is "When I fly this ship my enemies become dumb pilots with no prop mod, no tackle and no tank fitted on their ships". This approach is outdated. It was a time when people were going solo roaming in battleships to 0.0 and melt some small gang. During those times New Eden was not populated as it is now, the environment for solo pvpers was more forgiving. In modern EVE we have blobs and huge incoming DPS to each ship. If you think that while in siege u can just blap all targets and then use MJD w/o being punished you must be mad. I do not really understand scenario in which you will come winner using marauder. Scenario #1 So let's imagine I jump in, activate my MJD but getting scrambled, I go into bastion mode and all targets are close to me, falloff bonus doesn't do much here since every pilot will try to get his ship under my guns. Guess we need tracking. Scenario #2 I warp at range to hostile fleet, activate siege and start shooting them. Unless enemy is complete ****** and is not burning straight at me or is not in a huge ship like BS, I will hard times killing him in 60 seconds. He will get on top of me and I will pretty much sitting duck.
Based on falloff bonus you want to assign I think you want some sort of sniping brawler, main component of successful sniping in mobility which is missing in this case. Could you please be so kind and watch some PVP guides on youtube or elsewhere?
Also why missile boats do not receive bonuses like gun boats do? Why don't you give them something like explosion velocity or explosion radius bonus so they will apply more or less full dps to non stationary targets?
Once again, please stop trying to be smart ass. If you really wanted to make marauder a PVP ship all u had to do is increase sensor strength on it and perhaps give some extra PG/CPU.
As Russian soldiers like to say in army: Dear Officers, stop making a clever faces, don't forget who you are. |

Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
28
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:05:00 -
[694] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration?
^^ This.
Also RIP Federation Navy stasis webs on Kronos... but the idea is lovely, I was wondering which ship will receive these "transition animations" that was shown on Fanfest.
Sniper Kronos - MJD 100km away, deploy, kill everything that moves and when timer ends, GTFO Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/ |

Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:06:00 -
[695] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote: If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?
So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.
Correct, the enemy would be trying to get rid of your tackle - as you've forced their hand in making it the only valid target. Whilst in general it might be a case that you'd ignore the paper thin tackle ship and get rid of some incoming dps or logi should you aim to remain in the fight and win. Lets say you're in a 10v10 fight, one or 2 of these landing on grid from one side are going to bring in Ewar and effectively dps immune projected damage that can be applied on the enemies. They deal decent damage, you can't stop them doing that damage, you can't kill them quickly - they force your hand to either retreat, or completely rethink the target calling.
Not really, sure if the one side without the Marauders are caught by surprise and didn't saw them early via scouting our dscan but even then you are only partialy correct. Lets play your scenario through but keep in mind you have just field roughly 3b in 2 BS sized ships. A 10v10 in 90% of all case is with RR on both sides (means stuff is slowly dieing), i won't get into detailed setups as there are to many options but i can tell you the most likely scenario. The ones without Marauders will call in backup while they held tackle as long as possible on them while not shooting the Marauders or if they're good just chew through your support stuff and kill the Marauders afterwards. Means in harsh words your uber tank is uttelry useless and as the Bastion mode forces close range fights, your support has to be close to the bastioned Marauders so your superior range does not matter. What is left on those 1.5b price tagged BS is your E-War immunity. Nice and i mean it sarcastic. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
148
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:07:00 -
[696] - Quote
This changes are pretty bad.
You wreck marauders with the speed nerf and removal of the 90% webs for basically any pve and pvp application and make them extreme niche ships(maybe beside the Paladin, since you don't need the web to mission in amarr space) that have fairly limited uses compared to a mwd fitted faction BS, both in pve and pvp. Nobody that uses marauders seriously needs that much tank on them, even the tank bonus as it is, is rather questionable(especially in RR environments like Incursions).
The Golem does need more speed and another torp damage application bonus, this changes don't touch the issues of the hull at all. The Kronos needs 2 full waves sentry's, some spare drones and the optimal/tracking drone bonus of the domi to make it a more useful alternative compared to the other rail/sentry platforms, nobody uses blasters on it(outside Incs), the falloff bonus is useless for rails and the changes cover not a single one of the issues(even worse it loses most of his dronebay). The Vargur needs another bonus to projectiles(extra tracking or optimal) to make it more different compared to the Mach, this changes doesn't address this at all. The Paladin is the only fairly good marauder, I would like the optimal bonus but it would be probably OP and a tracking one would be more reasonable. Also all marauders need a bit more speed instead of making them all bricks and a solid buff in the utility department, because this is the main thing what separates them from faction and pirate BS today(also it can be fairly useful and is a valid reason to chose a marauder over a pirate BS).
If you think eve needs a 900M super slow active tanking BS that nobody will use for anything else but camping station undock points in Empire or busting poorly organized low sec gate camps, then make a T2 version of the tier 3 BS, fix marauders properly or at least leave them alone.
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:07:00 -
[697] - Quote
Well this looks like it is going to be good... Wait... WHAT!
I have only flown the Kronos so that's all I can speak about but
No web bonus on the Kronos???
The web bonus made it most worth using because it allowed it to best apply it's DPS with blasters.
The Kronos using blasters will now be worse in PVE as it cannot use its DPS quickly like before, unwelcome in incursions for the same reasons as PVE and there are much better options for a sniper fit or a brawler for PVP.
The Vindi has just become a world better than the Kronos.
Please rethink this as it is a massive nerf to the Kronos. |

RuriHoshino
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:13:00 -
[698] - Quote
So a PvE ship gets a moderately entertaining party piece for running PvE content, that still doesn't make it convincingly superior to already available Pirate alternatives because "how 2 run missions" has been solved for a good long time (and arguably they're worse because drones are the only way to kill smaller npcs). Cool?
For PvP, having a super tank isn't really that useful in a world of cyno-up. Ships that can remain mobile and do their damage, or remain stationary but recieve remote reps, will be more useful in every situation that involves a sliver of risk.
So overall it seems like a lot of wasted effort. I'm not a fan of adding skills to the game just to give bittervets something new to train, and the benefits of mini-siege aren't worth training into Marauders if you don't already have it. |

Samthaman123 Funaila
Quovis The East India Co.
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:14:00 -
[699] - Quote
As soon as i saw this i stopped training for a command ship's and started training for the marauders. Cant wait now.. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
218
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:20:00 -
[700] - Quote
You definitely get points for doing something new and imaginative. Because it's so different, I can't really imagine how effective it will be or won't be.
The things I wonder about initially are:
* What's up with the tractor bonus? How about trading that for something else? It's a nice tip of the hat to the old way of thinking of the marauder as a solo, long range deployment boat, but let's face it, that's not really how it's used. There's always a noctis in the background these days. No need for the DPS to have a tractor beam too.
* How effective can a projectile weapon be if you are stationary? It seems like tracking will be a serious issue at some point. I'm not a math guy or a fitting expert, but it sure seems like it would be problematic.
Bokononist
-á |
|

Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
28
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:23:00 -
[701] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:You definitely get points for doing something new and imaginative. Because it's so different, I can't really imagine how effective it will be or won't be.
The things I wonder about initially are:
* What's up with the tractor bonus? How about trading that for something else? It's a nice tip of the hat to the old way of thinking of the marauder as a solo, long range deployment boat, but let's face it, that's not really how it's used. There's always a noctis in the background these days. No need for the DPS to have a tractor beam too.
* How effective can a projectile weapon be if you are stationary? It seems like tracking will be a serious issue at some point. I'm not a math guy or a fitting expert, but it sure seems like it would be problematic.
Thats where stasis web bonus comes in handy in current version of Marauders. Got rails? Frigates orbiting? Just double web them and then instapop with 1 volley. Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/ |

Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:25:00 -
[702] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
. . .
PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
. . .
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
. . .
[ALSO]
PALADIN
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
. . .
VARGUR
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-25)
Dear CCP Ytterbium,
What is the reasoning behind removing the web bonus on the Paladin and Kronos? I'm presuming it's because, whilst in Bastion mode, you would consider the web bonus too strong against smaller targets?
Secondly, what is your reasoning for giving the Vargur a larger drone bay than the Paladin? I don't see any compelling evidence why it should be this way. It should either be even or the Paladin should have the larger drone bay -- for the following reasons:
1) The Vargur has better innate tracking through its bonuses.
2) The Vargur has better tracking through the innate values of autocannons.
3) The Vargur is faster.
4) Amarr are generally 2nd in drones armament (whilst I admit it is the weakest point, it's still one CCP has considered and used as reasoning in the past to justify drone bay allocation).
The points listed above (especially the first 3) lead to one conclusion, to wit: That the Vargur has the greater ability to deal with smaller targets on the field than the Paladin. Why does this matter? Because drones on Battleships are, many times, the one weapon system that saves them from frigates and other targets that get under their tracking.
This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.
And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.
Thus, I see no compelling reason why the Paladin should not have the 50mb drone bay and the Vargur a 25mb drone bay -- or at the least they should be equal.
Thanks for read this, cheers. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2635
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:28:00 -
[703] - Quote
Welcome to the EVE online community, the only online community that welcomes news of new and exciting content with screams of "you're doing it wrong"! |

Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:29:00 -
[704] - Quote
Would like to request clarification from CCP on a few things
- The OP mentions transformations, which potentially means they're getting unique models, right?
 - Can they be bumped in Bastion mode?
- Does their immunity to EWAR cover Energy Neutralisers as well as ECM/Damps/TD?
- You are aware that releasing these before OGB's are brought on grid means triple ASB, Siege boosted Vargurs sitting on every single Low/High gate ever, right?

|

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
277
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:30:00 -
[705] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:So, just for fun, I have knocked up a little cyno bait vargur fit in pyfa - this uses existing stats: [Vargur, bait]
Damage Control II Expanded Cargohold II x 4
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 x 3 EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x 2
Cynosural Field Generator I
Large Cargohold Optimization II Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Stats: BEFORE OVERHEATING AND IMPLANTS Constant tank (1.5 ASBs) 1689 cargohold capacity: 3650 Number of Navy 400 charges: 228 plus in the boosters 21 Total Navy 400 charges 249
Boost per charge (HP) 1482 average resists 76.0750.76075 EHP per charge 6194.357367 Total EHP from charges 1542394.984 Base EHP 64100 TOTAL EFFECTIVE HP 1606494.984
So this is a 1.6M hitpoint cyno bait ship, before considering bastion mode.
If you switch on bastion mode, the constant tank becomes 3.3k and total effective hitpoints come to around 4.4 million. More than a carrier.
Note that this is just a T2 fit. No links, no implants. With crystal and blue pill we're looking at closer to 8 million effective hitpoints. Add some faction hardeners and it's more like 10 million.
I'll say that again. 10 million effective hitpoints.
I was under the impression we wanted to get rid of this kind of thing from the game?
Please take this nonsense back to the drawing board.
Your epic cyno bait has no way of holding its target, so your arguement is invalid... also, alpha.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Menian Galvon
Legion of the Black Knight
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:30:00 -
[706] - Quote
Capqu wrote:hey how come the siege module only gives missiles one bonus? guns get application bonus + range missiles get range doesnt really make sense to me also the gun range bonus is much better for some weapon systems than others (falloff bonus for lasers  )
Range on turrets doesn't improve them like range for missiles. Missiles do max damage at all ranges. Guns do not. Missiles do not have tracking problems, guns do. Stop bitching. You want an explosion velocity bonus? So they can **** up small **** too? Then you might as well give the Golem a big ass "I Win" button. ---{==================================== }---- -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á DCS: A-10C Warthog Pilot
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1386
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:34:00 -
[707] - Quote
RuriHoshino wrote:So a PvE ship gets a moderately entertaining party piece for running PvE content, that still doesn't make it convincingly superior to already available Pirate alternatives. you have never run a mission before, have you? even the EWAR immunity alone makes all four marauders instantly better than their faction/pirate counterparts. and i'm not even talking tank and projection bonuses yet.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
486
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:35:00 -
[708] - Quote
GAR0 wrote:SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5  These are my questions too 
Because 5 x 100% + 100% Damage = Effectively 10 Turrets\Launchers which is OP!. The +1 High Slot is for the Bastion Module. RTFS. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

mr stephenson
Dodgy at Best
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:37:00 -
[709] - Quote
these changes will put the price of a vindicator into obscene numbers. am i right in thinking that if this goes as stated then the vindi will be the only bs sized ship with web bonuses. why do the web bonuses need to be removed ? could the y be changed to a weaker bonus to web range to go with the better damage projection. what if all 3 turret based ships got a web bonus and the golem gets the tp bonus. or you could make tps actually work properly with turrets :) and give the tp bonusto all ships but i do like the direction your taking the class. sideways from bs rather than just a slighly better version of them. brave move |

Draenor Ryuujin
WInexplicable Blackguard Mercenaries
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:38:00 -
[710] - Quote
Seem to be interesting changes, would be nice to see 1 further module available for marauders to make PoS bashing in area's where dreads cannot be dropped not be the horrid grind that it is. Something like:
Demolition Module
Can only be fit on marauders Can only be activated in Bastion mode
Turret/Missile damage increased 100% Tracking reduced 90% Lock Time Increased 500% Max locked Targets: 1 |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
144
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:42:00 -
[711] - Quote
Can something at least be done for the color scheme of the Golem? (blecchhh...) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
187
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:44:00 -
[712] - Quote
Well, I'm not going to get into a discussion of the new stuff and the relative balance between the ships themselves. Many have already posted on this.
But I am going to criticize you guys for creating a huge racial backstory inconsistency -
Painters are the Minmatar ewar. And it is frankly the weakest ewar. You have taken the painter/web ewar components away from all the other Marauders, but it is still there on the Golem. 
Now I suppose you think it has to stay to help the Torps mainly. But you are leaving a minmatar ewar bonus on a ship that is Caldari, while the Minmatar ship in the ship class has none. You have already given the 10% (imo overdone, other races usually only get 7.5%) range bonus to the ship. Now you could break that in half and distribute it to the two bonus positions. But I know you won't.
So if you must give a painter bonus to this ship why not make it an optimal bonus? Painters have a short optimal. And, it seems to me that optimal bonuses are a Caldari thing. This would make more sense to the thematic regime of bonuses you have set up. Caldari scientists tinkered with a painter they had captured and figured out how to extend the optimal (maybe 5% per level, no more Caldari 10% bonuses bullshit please ). The way you have the bonus now means they tinkered with the captured painter mechanism and made it stronger and better Which would be quite insulting to all the poor Minmatar scientists. 
So, please find a different bonus to replace the painter bonus, or change it to an optimal bonus. Thanks. |

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
206
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:45:00 -
[713] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:The OP mentions transformations, which potentially means they're getting unique models, right?
They ~just~ finished remodeling all four of these hulls. So the animations were probably actually already completed with said remodels. Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
853
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:45:00 -
[714] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:So, just for fun, I have knocked up a little cyno bait vargur fit in pyfa - this uses existing stats:
So this is a 1.6M hitpoint cyno bait ship, before considering bastion mode.
If you switch on bastion mode, the constant tank becomes 3.3k and total effective hitpoints come to around 4.4 million. More than a carrier.
Note that this is just a T2 fit. No links, no implants. With crystal and blue pill we're looking at closer to 8 million effective hitpoints. Add some faction hardeners and it's more like 10 million.
I'll say that again. 10 million effective hitpoints.
I was under the impression we wanted to get rid of this kind of thing from the game?
Please take this nonsense back to the drawing board.
Your epic cyno bait has no way of holding its target, so your argument is invalid... also, alpha.
Even if it did have tackle - so what? It's a cyno bait ship. It needs enough tank to gain tackle, light a cyno and then survive until RR lands - feats which are already readily possible with very many ships. It's just an unnecessarily expensive and obvious way of doing the same old trick. |

Lilliana Stelles
863
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:47:00 -
[715] - Quote
Will bastioning add to the mass, or do we just use a 100mn stabbabond to bump them around the battlefield?
Also, this bonus seems to be a bit unfair to certain weapon systems. Autocannons, lasers, and torpedoes (when properly fit), for instance, already have decent range potential for "short ranged" weapons. Perhaps not enough if you can't move, but their range isn't "bad". And lets not talk about rails/cruises.
What you'll see from this are 40km+ neutron blasters.
Shame the web bonus is going away, though. It made a viable vindicator alternative. Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
853
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:49:00 -
[716] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:So, please find a different bonus to replace the painter bonus, or change it to an optimal bonus. Thanks. 
Painters are not short-ranged, they have 45 km optimal and 90 km falloff, this means a 77% hit chance at 100 km. An optimal bonus to painters on the Golem would be stupid.
How about a comedy bonus to ECM Burst range and strength instead though?  |

Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
29
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:49:00 -
[717] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Can something at least be done for the color scheme of the Golem? (blecchhh...)
Ishukone paintjob would look damn cool on Raven model: http://www.eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Ishukone%20Raven Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/ |

Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:53:00 -
[718] - Quote
nonsciolist wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*. I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control.
It means the module does not suffer from the law of diminishing returns, and does not add to or get effected by any such penalty from other resist modules.
Say your shield resists, after tank mods, somehow managed to be 60% across the board. Turning on Bastion would put you at 72% across the board (30% of the remaining 40% not resisted = 12%).
Ytterbium confirmed this will work alongside a DC as well, which means Bastion mode will carry a 72% hull omni-resist amount with a DC running at the same time. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1390
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:54:00 -
[719] - Quote
here is what would make the raven model look good: replacing it with any other battleship model in the game. or a giraffe.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
187
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:55:00 -
[720] - Quote
Menian Galvon wrote:Capqu wrote:hey how come the siege module only gives missiles one bonus? guns get application bonus + range missiles get range doesnt really make sense to me also the gun range bonus is much better for some weapon systems than others (falloff bonus for lasers  ) Range on turrets doesn't improve them like range for missiles. Missiles do max damage at all ranges. Guns do not. Missiles do not have tracking problems, guns do. Stop bitching. You want an explosion velocity bonus? So they can **** up small **** too? Then you might as well give the Golem a big ass "I Win" button. I agree with what you say. But I think you also needed to add - **** up small ships from zero to max range.
Also, see my above post. The Golem already has an application bonus that is incongruous and probably overdone. |
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2636
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:55:00 -
[721] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Will bastioning add to the mass, or do we just use a 100mn stabbabond to bump them around the battlefield? .
I encourage all to actually read the op before posting.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:[list
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp.
|

Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
262
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:56:00 -
[722] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Attack/Combat hull mixup?
It seems to me that the 'high damage, excellent damage projection, obscene tank, low mobility' go hand in hand with the Combat line of battleships. But the four marauders are based off of Attack hulls. Please notice a pattern you've already engaged in with the HACs- the ones based off of the Attack hulls are fast, the ones based off of the combat ones are slow. You've gotten it backwards here, and have made T2 Combat hulls out of Attack ones. So why not save these changes for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? We do not really have 'specialized fast battleships'. The Machariel is an outlier, but does represent this role.
[...]
Note the lack of EWAR immunity. That's because sensor strength is increased across the board to non-'hornet EC300s will have me permajammed into next year' levels. Further, these ships I think would have velocities, mass and agility on par with (or even less than in terms of mass) their T1 attack hull counterparts. This is the suggestion for direction change that I agree with. There was something bothering me about the base concept, and this is it. While I love the concept of the mini-Dread, the Marauders seem like the wrong hull to put it on. Marauders are supposed to be fast, hard-hitting monsters, guerillas, hit and run, at least conceptually. The Maelstrom hull on the Minmatar side would make more sense as the big brick mini-Dread. It already excels at loading up big guns and big tank. This would be a natural extension. The Tempest (Vargur) hull should be fast and mobile.
So what can I say that's helpful: improve the mobility and slipperiness of the Marauders. Most of the hull changes as they stand make every ship weaker and slower to account for Bastion. Roll them back, then go the other way. Make them faster, give them something like the deep space +2 warp strength, fix their sensors. Hell, harden their sensors so they're tough to crack. Leave the powergrid upgrades, they allow for versatility. Improve the tractor bonuses, put the drone bays back, give them salvaging/salvaging drone bonuses. Keep the MJD bonus, it's awesome and is in line with the slipperiness. You'll even see some crazy dual prop fits that can burn and blink. Hell, give them a role bonus that reduces signature radius. That'll have people foaming at the mouth. (Not saying all of these things simultaneously, just, the general idea)
You want them back in the PvP game, there they are. They'll see low-sec deployment in no time. Mission runners still have an awesome ship, and far less need to bring a Noctis. And when that agent brings them a low-sec mission their first reaction won't be '****, now I need another mission.' It'll be 'Hmm... that might be worth the risk, and some good adrenaline.' |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
486
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:57:00 -
[723] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:Will bastioning add to the mass, or do we just use a 100mn stabbabond to bump them around the battlefield? I encourage all to actually read the op before posting. CCP Ytterbium wrote:
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp.
TBH there was a lot to read and digest and some misread parts. A little forgiveness is sometimes the way but F**K IT EVE IS HARSH! RTFS Morons   lol. < That was a joke ISD, don't ban me  Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
187
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:58:00 -
[724] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:So, please find a different bonus to replace the painter bonus, or change it to an optimal bonus. Thanks.  Painters are not short-ranged, they have 45 km optimal and 90 km falloff, this means a 77% hit chance at 100 km. An optimal bonus to painters on the Golem would be stupid. How about a comedy bonus to ECM Burst range and strength instead though?  I quite like your comedy bonus. And frankly it would be more appropriate. And some might even prefer it.
But anyway, would you have this ship keep a strength bonus on painters? It makes no sense either way imo. But it makes less no sense to make it an optimal bonus. |

Berluth Luthian
Meltdown.
108
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 14:59:00 -
[725] - Quote
The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on... |

Cassius Longinus
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:00:00 -
[726] - Quote
Ya, I do want to append one comment- the idea of adding a siege to marauders is really cool. The idea of "fast MJD" is also really cool, I just don't really think "big tank" is enough of a bonus to use it in PVP outside of really niche things. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2636
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:01:00 -
[727] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:Will bastioning add to the mass, or do we just use a 100mn stabbabond to bump them around the battlefield? I encourage all to actually read the op before posting. CCP Ytterbium wrote:
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp.
TBH there was a lot to read and digest and some misread parts. A little forgiveness is sometimes the way but F**K IT EVE IS HARSH! RTFS Morons    lol. < That was a joke ISD, don't ban me 
People have enough time to form opinions about ccps work, they ought to have enough time to read about it all. I did.
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1390
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:04:00 -
[728] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:Aglais wrote:Attack/Combat hull mixup?
It seems to me that the 'high damage, excellent damage projection, obscene tank, low mobility' go hand in hand with the Combat line of battleships. But the four marauders are based off of Attack hulls. Please notice a pattern you've already engaged in with the HACs- the ones based off of the Attack hulls are fast, the ones based off of the combat ones are slow. You've gotten it backwards here, and have made T2 Combat hulls out of Attack ones. So why not save these changes for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? We do not really have 'specialized fast battleships'. The Machariel is an outlier, but does represent this role.
[...]
Note the lack of EWAR immunity. That's because sensor strength is increased across the board to non-'hornet EC300s will have me permajammed into next year' levels. Further, these ships I think would have velocities, mass and agility on par with (or even less than in terms of mass) their T1 attack hull counterparts. This is the suggestion for direction change that I agree with. There was something bothering me about the base concept, and this is it. While I love the concept of the mini-Dread, the Marauders seem like the wrong hull to put it on. Marauders are supposed to be fast, hard-hitting monsters, guerillas, hit and run, at least conceptually. The Maelstrom hull on the Minmatar side would make more sense as the big brick mini-Dread. It already excels at loading up big guns and big tank. This would be a natural extension. The Tempest (Vargur) hull should be fast and mobile. So what can I say that's helpful: improve the mobility and slipperiness of the Marauders. Most of the hull changes as they stand make every ship weaker and slower to account for Bastion. Roll them back, then go the other way. Make them faster, give them something like the deep space +2 warp strength, fix their sensors. Hell, harden their sensors so they're tough to crack. Leave the powergrid upgrades, they allow for versatility. Improve the tractor bonuses, put the drone bays back, give them salvaging/salvaging drone bonuses. Keep the MJD bonus, it's awesome and is in line with the slipperiness. You'll even see some crazy dual prop fits that can burn and blink. Hell, give them a role bonus that reduces signature radius. That'll have people foaming at the mouth. (Not saying all of these things simultaneously, just, the general idea) You want them back in the PvP game, there they are. They'll see low-sec deployment in no time. Mission runners still have an awesome ship, and far less need to bring a Noctis. And when that agent brings them a low-sec mission their first reaction won't be '****, now I need another mission.' It'll be 'Hmm... that might be worth the risk, and some good adrenaline.'
while all this together sounds a little over the top, i agree with the general idea. the mjd bonus, together with a scan resolution and mobility buff would be more than enough to make marauders viable while keeping them under control pve wise. if you insist on having a mini-dread, hey there is still one battleship hull per race that has no T2 equivalent 
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Jezza McWaffle
The-Hole-Idea Void-Legion
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:05:00 -
[729] - Quote
How about mirroring the bonus to local reppers with the effectiveness of plates and extenders? This way you can choose between massive active or buffer tank. I think this would help for large fleets as it gives enough buffer maybe to coast out of cycle before reps land.
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
399
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:05:00 -
[730] - Quote
Hm i did expect marauders to become more usable now i am not so sure
Nerf dps.
Nerf speed and agility.
Nerf shields armor and hull.
These ships in this state went wrong way this don't help in missions they wore already overtanked(in mission running terms) with pretty much useless tank and now they got even more of it and even less dps.
For incursions they already was to slim on hit points to the point if i try to mimic fleet fitting doctrine(max results) ship would be close to death too many times to be viable used as such..this got even worse with nerfing their tank across the board.
I don't see how mini siege will help there, local tank will not hold and fitting it as such will waste slots being special snowflake will get you killed .
So lack of dps/lack of drones/lack of speed and or agility/lack of usability to higher end PVE and opening ship to be viable fleet ship did not get addressed with this re balance.
It will still be multimillion SP boat with isolated niche thingy locked in bad performance pve of basic flavor.. and some isk wasting pvp endeavors.
I expected more but i am excited to see how they pan out.
Some ideas of mine would be
that drone bays got buffed and usable until you hit deception button and for the luw of god don't destroy ship in one mode just to have siege module on board(don't nerf hit points in standard mode).So that ppl don't loose marauder that they used for so long.
Why is speed/agility nerfed what difference does it make mjd will work the same does it not? http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
|

Ben Booley
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:07:00 -
[731] - Quote
This change effectively ruins them as a PVP ship.
Outside of the tiny tiny niche of solo players (with links) going up against 5-10 people, the bastion module is worthless. Even against those numbers, if they have neuts, most active tanks will turn off. While an ASB can still run, you'll lose any hardeners, or any tackle to keep people there. Neuts will completely shut off an armor tank, and any weapons used by that armor tank.
At over 10 people, you'll die to alpha. Being able to MJD more frequently doesn't help since they probably have scrams. So you drop into bastion, shoot some things for a bit (but not doing any more damage than a BS that actually has mobility), hope they don't get out of your range, and tank a lot of DPS, but with minimal EHP. There are so many dreads in game, and marauders are sufficiently shiny, that if you bastion more than a handful of marauders someone will drop a moros on them and just alpha through the marauders effortlessly, as they can't even move for transversal.
Outside of bastion mode, the low sensor strength renders them incredibly easy to jam, and for the paladin and kronos losing their 90% webs significantly reduces their utility to an armor fleet.
The faster MJD bonus, as we saw when the revenant had a jump range bonus, is useless. It really doesn't matter if the marauder can MJD every 54 seconds, as long as the rest of the fleet is still stuck at 180 seconds, as no sane FC will split the hell out of their fleet just to keep a marauder pilot alive, and I really doubt we'll see gangs or fleets of marauders.
Their rep bonuses line up for solo work as even a boosted tank won't be able to fight an even mid sized gang, and without remote effects in bastion mode they're limited to each ship being on it's own. They're utterly useless outside bastion mode, and only mostly useless inside bastion mode, so they have no way to work in a fleet.
Dreads and carriers, the two other ships with something similar to bastion mode, increase their ability to do things to other people when locked in place, either by doing more damage or having better RR. The marauder needs the same. Bastion mode is useless when it only affects itself. I would give them ~3-4k dps in bastion mode, enough that they can be a real threat to BS and capitals while sieged, but not enough to eclipse dreads completely in K-space. That 3-4k dps would, however, be a massive fix for two of the biggest pains in the game, highsec and low W-space POSes. You can't hit those with dreads, and hardened they take forever in a BS, particularly in low tier WHs where you can't fit all that many ships through.
Marauders need to do something like that, something that has impact on other players, rather than pure tank, if they want to be a good PVP ship. As it stands, bastion mode will be astoundingly good for lvl 4 missions and some anoms, and possibly incursions (i don't know enough about incursions to know if the increased local tank would be enough to make up for no logi in an incursion or not).
I really want to like this change since it's ~cool~, but as it stands it makes the marauder a massive pile of ****. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:07:00 -
[732] - Quote
Syri Taneka wrote:nonsciolist wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*. I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control. It means the module does not suffer from the law of diminishing returns, and does not add to or get effected by any such penalty from other resist modules. Say your shield resists, after tank mods, somehow managed to be 50% across the board. Turning on Bastion would put you at 65% across the board (30% of the remaining 50% not resisted = 15%). Ytterbium confirmed this will work alongside a DC as well, which means Bastion mode will carry a 72% hull omni-resist amount with a DC running at the same time.
Dual repped these things are going to be hell to kill without a large group to alpha. Not only that but they will be shooting back without being effected by any ewar. Once the bastion cycle is over you can MJD and set up a new position. The Kronos and Paladin will both be capable of triple armor reps, and that will be insane. All will be using short range weapons at longer ranges than any other ship with the bastion on. Really cool idea.
Questions: Will cap transfer still work on these, with the extra high slots it seems like a good tactic. Can they be nueted or is that covered in ewar immunity? |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
853
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:08:00 -
[733] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:So, please find a different bonus to replace the painter bonus, or change it to an optimal bonus. Thanks.  Painters are not short-ranged, they have 45 km optimal and 90 km falloff, this means a 77% hit chance at 100 km. An optimal bonus to painters on the Golem would be stupid. How about a comedy bonus to ECM Burst range and strength instead though?  I quite like your comedy bonus. And frankly it would be more appropriate. And some might even prefer it.  But anyway, would you have this ship keep a strength bonus on painters? It makes no sense either way imo. But it makes less less sense to make it an optimal bonus. 
I agree that the painter strength bonus is incongruous - but so is one to painter optimal. As you say, painters are supposed to be Minmatar. I suppose the alternative to the painter bonus is to give it an explosion radius bonus to replicate some or all of the painter effect. The main effect of this would be to free up a medslot, for tanking or tackle etc. On the other hand, with links you can get 80% painters, equivalent to, er.... a 44% bonus to explosion radius? Realistically, the maximum precision bonus that you'd get is 25%. Plus you have the option to fit a second painter - or none at all.
I dunno, the precision bonus is simpler and less incongruous, but the painter strength bonus is more variable and offers more tactical options. I quite like it. |

Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
187
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:10:00 -
[734] - Quote
Yeah, frankly this change deserved its own thread -
CCP Ytterbium wrote: As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
So . . it took you getting to Marauder rebalancing and worry over the ******* Golem to finally notice and respond to this longstanding problem. But anyway, thanks for the Minmatar ewar ship buff. They really needed it. I don't think it will increase the use of Vigils and Bellicoses (or the use of painters on Rapiers and Huginns) a lot. But at least it's something.
And I will take this opportunity to ask you guys again for a further nerf on the base strength of TDs, Damps, and Painters, with a countervailing buff on specialized TD, Damp, and Painter boats (except the ******* Golem ). Damps and TDs in particular are getting way too much effectiveness on any old tom **** or harry midslot blessed ship, especially at the frigate level. And at current strengths these ewar tanks are often better than any shield tank. Which only leads to more of the imbalances we are presently experiencing in fw plex ship use. Kitey ewar Condors, Kestrels, Hookbills . . . Thanks. |

Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
483
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:10:00 -
[735] - Quote
Will this finally be true?
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9168/megathron.jpg Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:13:00 -
[736] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.
On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to. Or you could just fit a MWD or AB and burn to the next gate? Not seeing the issue here, all of these ships are going to have plenty of spare slots. nahjustwarpin wrote:alot of people will still do missions in their domis or nightmares, why?
because bastion mode doesn't make running missions faster. It allows to tank more, but missions already can be tanked in mjd domis, machs and nightmares.
It's a gimmick idea without any direction. Except that it allows you to fit less tank and more damage application and damage modules. Plus there's the immunity to E-War, which often slows down mission completion. Also strong damage application bonuses meaning fewer soft hits and faster kill times. Skullian wrote:I think they need better resistances if they are going to have a + 400 sig radius.
I like the mini dread idea though. You mean like the partial T2 resist (which they already have) or the 30% non-penalized resist bonus they get from Bastion? Beyond that T2 resist on these ships would cause all sorts of balance problems with Dreadnaught HP battleships and all sorts of other sillyness. For solo and small gang without Logi the Bastion is better for tanking anyway and doesn't give these same issues.
yeah...lol....put in a prop to a slow as **** ship anyway, but then...why would you need the MJD at all? In fact, it makes putting an MJD on it a detriment. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
487
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:13:00 -
[737] - Quote
That's an awesome graphic! Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Lilliana Stelles
864
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:14:00 -
[738] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:Will bastioning add to the mass, or do we just use a 100mn stabbabond to bump them around the battlefield? I encourage all to actually read the op before posting. CCP Ytterbium wrote:
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp.
TBH there was a lot to read and digest and some misread parts. A little forgiveness is sometimes the way but F**K IT EVE IS HARSH! RTFS Morons    lol. < That was a joke ISD, don't ban me  People have enough time to form opinions about ccps work, they ought to have enough time to read about it all. I did. I read it. I missed that part. I was just posing a question about something I skimmed past. Don't aneurysm over the little things. Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
487
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:15:00 -
[739] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on...
I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
218
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:18:00 -
[740] - Quote
Menian Galvon wrote:Volitaire wrote:I'm getting rather tired of every ship 'upgrade' having a new, or multiple, associated skills go along with it. Im not. I don't have anything to train anymore :\ Everything I am training right now I will never use. Not to mention there are 3 character slots on each account. I don't need anything extra to train. Bokononist
-á |
|

Deacon Ix
Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:20:00 -
[741] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Deacon Ix wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Deacon Ix wrote:Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads) "Let's obsolete pirate battleships." No? Maybe / Maybe not my point being that for a ship that size the local tank bonus isn't enough to offset not being able to receive RR in PvP, so in order to make the deployed mode a viable option in PvP there needs to be an incentive to go into it. Basically if dreads didn't get a damage bonus siege mode wouldn't be used and Pirate BS will still have the Damage and mobility and some fairly decent secondary bonuses (Webs and Neuts on those particular ones) and I vary rarely see the Mach, RS and NM in PvP anyway as there are now cheaper ships which are just as good. Yes, for PvP. You have to also think that it will be used for PvE too. For example Paladin already does a bit over 1k dps with Tachs + Gleam. That's ~50 dps behind Tach NM with Navy Multi. It already has far better active tank than NM. While it would be nice to have in PvP it would be massive buff to already good ships in PvE. Only Pirate ship that could compete dps wise against most Marauders would be Vindi.
I won't argue against your point, having previously flown a NM and RS to do lvl 4s and a Bhaal in incursions they are now all mothballed in favor of a Torp Golem (with 2x RF Painters) and a Legion.
The Marauder is more skill intensive than a Pirate BS which IMO should equate to better (if abet more specalised).
I consider the Marauders to outclass Pirate BS already in PvE and this change just makes them better.
slight side note: this change does in fact reduce the theoretical max DPS by reducing the drones from Med to Light (not that meds where used). Max applied DPS should be increased (outside of the 10-15km web radius) |

Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
187
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:20:00 -
[742] - Quote
also this it sorta overdone don't you think -
CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL(name not final) GÇó Rank 8
Can't you make that a rank 5 - 7 skill? |

Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:26:00 -
[743] - Quote
Id much rather have a extra mid slot compared to the extra high. With the MJD its going to be that much harder to make the mids work. |

Transporter
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:26:00 -
[744] - Quote
Let them be able to jump to covert cynos and introduce covert logi and I swear you will see them like never before! They dont even have to cloak. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2495

|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:27:00 -
[745] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote:The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on... I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change.
Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
265
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:28:00 -
[746] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:I encourage all to actually read the op before posting. CCP Ytterbium wrote:
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp.
OK, I was wrong. Marauders will have a role besides cyno bait tanks - popping c5 to c3 wormholes single-handedly, or C2 to hisec/C3 in pairs.
I will buy exactly 2 in order to increase the number of wormholes we can cycle in order to gank hapless blinged-up T3s.
Not the 'designed' use cases I am sure...
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Ayame Chidori
D.W.C.
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:29:00 -
[747] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ...
Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1254
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:30:00 -
[748] - Quote
Hey frenchy... now that we have mini dreads that tank like a dread but have the dps of a BS... how about we get tech II ABC's? that have the tank of a bc but the dps of 1/4 a dread...
i have been talking about this for years and its in my signature...
it is a heavy bomber. uses citidel torps and a capital bomb launcher. (like the one found on super carriers) There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Flyinghotpocket
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
169
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:31:00 -
[749] - Quote
Alsyth wrote:Pretty bad imo.
In low/null-sec: true dreads will eat them for breakfast. Don't even need tracking mods or 90% webs to alpha them.
In hi-sec: station huggers will be delighted. Good enough self rep, immune to ewar... This is an horrible thing.
Your hate for Caldari and missiles really is annoying. Torpedoes have yet to be fixed, and Cruise will not benefit from a range bonus.
sorry i didnt know that true dreads had a range of over 100km? and could easily retarget a ship after it has mjd'ed |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:32:00 -
[750] - Quote
as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode
and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.
if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps
especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....
"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it? |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
144
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:34:00 -
[751] - Quote
Any possibility of doing something with DPS (damage or rate of fire) or accuracy (tracking speed, explosion radius and explosion velocity) while in Bastion mode? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2641
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:34:00 -
[752] - Quote
Ayame Chidori wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ... Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers?
MJD away from them and kill them as they approach. NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing.
Quote: Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.
See above, if you fit properly (every pve battleship should have an MJD as it is a "get out of jail free" card), you're concerns are moot. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:34:00 -
[753] - Quote
Ayame Chidori wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ... Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.
reminds me of the last time i flew sansha side in worlds collide.... yeah....i came out with 2 drones left....out of i dont know how many. It would have taken hours if not more if i didnt have an alt come in with his drones |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
487
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:37:00 -
[754] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote:The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on... I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change. Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.
Well blow me sideways, that was a cheeky little change but very much welcomed. Thank you CCP Ytterbium. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Keith Planck
League of Extraordinary Equines Disciples of Vectron
524
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:38:00 -
[755] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode
and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.
if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps
especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....
"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it?
Combined with ancillary reppers the defense bonus is ~effectively buffer
I think a duel x-large ancillary vargurs going to destroy some things in lowsec... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
144
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:38:00 -
[756] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.
Any chance of getting this as an Odyssey 1.2x patch before the Winter expansion? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1391
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:38:00 -
[757] - Quote
Ayame Chidori wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ... Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission. never have I ever needed more than five light drones on any of my mission ships. i'm not sure what "it" is, but you are doing it terribly wrong.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:38:00 -
[758] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ayame Chidori wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ... Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing. Quote: Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.
See above, if you fit properly (every pve battleship should have an MJD as it is a "get out of jail free" card), you're concerns are moot.
....every pve battleship should have an MJD on it...... . |

Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
204
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:38:00 -
[759] - Quote
So why are we getting a new skill instead of doing the sensible thing and linking this new module to Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration? |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:39:00 -
[760] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:Battle Cube wrote:as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode
and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.
if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps
especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....
"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it? Combined with ancillary reppers the defense bonus is ~effectively buffer I think a duel x-large ancillary vargurs going to destroy some things in lowsec...
rep and buffer are still different things, i was talking about buffer, not rep, buffer =/= rep
for example, with buffer instead of rep, you can GET repped by an ally, making it more useful in Many situations. |
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2641
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:41:00 -
[761] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ayame Chidori wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ... Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing. Quote: Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.
See above, if you fit properly (every pve battleship should have an MJD as it is a "get out of jail free" card), you're concerns are moot. ....every pve battleship should have an MJD on it...... .
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
|

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:41:00 -
[762] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Someone wants to say hallo: click meI think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie. Do you know how big strotium unit is? 3 m3. Do you really want your cargohold full of those? Reason why fuel works for Black Ops, Dreads, Carriers, Supers is that they have special fuel bay.
I just wanted to point out that their excuse is bullshit, just because a skill reduces stront amount it doesnt means the module need to use stront, just like with the blackops. But here I am explaining such things to team trisomie 21. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:43:00 -
[763] - Quote
Yeah definitely should be linked into the dread skill chain IMO.
The more I read about it tho the more I think for PVP action taking away the 90% web bonus is going to massively reduce their use to far more niche roles (and the vargur and golem for not having that bonus at all).
I'm not against the idea itself but so far as an evolution of Marauders I'm seeing more negatives than positives from the change and theres definitely a lot more thinking through the idea required. |

Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:44:00 -
[764] - Quote
Bastion module seems kind of pointless. It is useless for 0.0 PvE because no sane person doing anoms, missions or sigs in 0.0 would activate module that would lock him in place for entire minute for anybody to find him, scram him and cino in entire gang to kill him. Good side is that it is also useless for blob warfare because it blocks remote assists. Some possible use for bastion would be for people that like to fly solo pvp brawling battleships, but given that marauder price will remain ridiculously high, and its' sensor strength is still in the shiter, any fool to attempt to use it that way will be losing shitload of isk to Ravens, Rooks and Blackbirds supported gangs.
Also I don't see marauders being much used for higsec missions because those often involve transiting between acceleration gates that are often to close for MJD to be of any use, so speed nerf significantly reduces their PvE utility. There is a reason why Macs are so popular among L4 mission blitzers, and that reason is it's speed. So as marauders speed is getting nerfed I predict their popularity will decline for mission runners. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
265
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:44:00 -
[765] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:Battle Cube wrote:as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode
and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.
if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps
especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....
"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it? Combined with ancillary reppers the defense bonus is ~effectively buffer I think a duel x-large ancillary vargurs going to destroy some things in lowsec...
About 4 million EHP if you fit cargo expanders by my calculations.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
487
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:44:00 -
[766] - Quote
Sirinda wrote:So why are we getting a new skill instead of doing the sensible thing and linking this new module to Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration?
As stated a few times but once more won't harm:
Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration reduces Strontium Clathrate consumption:
"Skill at the operation of siege modules. 25-unit reduction in strontium clathrate consumption amount for module activation per skill level."
As noted in the OP:
Quote:Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. [/quote]
And on the skill:
And those that don't have Tactical Reconfiguration trained will have to train that. At least this levels the playing field for this "New" adaptation of the Marauder Class coming in a bit. I think it's a good thing not to increase complexity on a ship that doesn't require it by it's very definition:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments,"
You start adding fuel and it shortens the "prolonged deployment" Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
1168
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:44:00 -
[767] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Ristlin Wakefield wrote:Looks like a pretty useful ship for solo ships to clear out higher level DED sites and maybe incursion stuff. No, the Marauder is now finished in Incursions, because "However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens." So bottom line, the new module is completely useless in Incursions, and they lose their web bonus, and lose DPS because the drone bandwidth is one third of what it was. Yeah, but this is working as designed, because the null sec cartels hate incursions, and anything they can do to wreck income in them, they will.
I got to agree here, this all but finishes the Paladins' and Kronos' usage in Armour fleets BM mode in Incursions would indeed be synonomus with the term for a Bowel Movement without reps. An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:44:00 -
[768] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC? |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
400
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:44:00 -
[769] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ayame Chidori wrote:[quote=CCP Ytterbium].... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ... Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing. ....every pve battleship should have an MJD on it...... . Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
Or you could have enough drones or web bonus to deal with frigs not run away from them..but i guess doing it wrong is the right way nova days.... http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

EXIA MIKOSZ
Strike Birds Zero
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:46:00 -
[770] - Quote
WOW I Realy Love These Changes |
|

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:51:00 -
[771] - Quote
I will take one into the WH as Orca substitute. But thats about it, i dont see any other point for flying them now.
Pirate Faction battleships will still be better for lvl 4 missions and stuff like that I guess. (last time I tried a L4 is was in a mael and that was good enough like 2-3 years ago, not really my cup of tea so i could be wrong here)
There are a great many things you can do in pvp to survive, standing around at 0ms/s is not on the list.
Kronos was a nice c3 bait ship, no need for a scram with those webs, keeps stuff in place until your protos buddies are past their decloack timer. |

Javius Rong
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:55:00 -
[772] - Quote
Remove the active rep bonuses for the Bastion module as you already have a significant increase due to the resists. Proved a 5% per level increase to damage. I foresee many issues with triple rep and XLABS fits relative to balance with out theses changes.
I understand with the MJD cycle usage why you nerd the base speed, mass, etc... But to me this was a nice part of the Maurader concept.
Also I don't think they should be E-war immune. Just proved them with a bonus to scan res and sensor strength of 100%.
Instead of going down the dread route, why not give them the T2 resist profile and turn them into close range brawlers? I am not sure I like the idea of have BSs that can snipe with there short range weapons. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:57:00 -
[773] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
i dont see why we should have to turn off safety in order to use a module in highsec for PVE that couldnt possibly hit something we didnt lock and fire at. It kind of defeats the purpose of the "set to green, you are safe from doing illegals" idea....
of course we will have to see the final numbers to see if the removal of tank modules and damage projection actually have higher effective dps than current ships, esp for example in L4s, but if we almost Need an MJD i see it hurting shield tanked ships, they will lose a midslot to that prop, and may need another prop to reach gates, so less room for tank, less/equal room for damage mods....
of course im looking at this from the vargur, so that my color my opinions |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1393
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:58:00 -
[774] - Quote
Random Woman wrote:Pirate Faction battleships will still be better for lvl 4 missions and stuff like that I guess. (last time I tried a L4 is was in a mael and that was good enough like 2-3 years ago, not really my cup of tea so i could be wrong here) consider yourself corrected. EWAR immunity, combined with a 25% range buff (which for most turret weapons is essentially the same as a dps buff), combined with a free omnitank slot (invul/EANM) will completely demolish all faction/pirate ships in lvl4s. while mobility can be an issue in a few missions, most can be done effectively by standing still and burning targets as they approach, thus negating the only 'drawback' of the bastion module (can we call it 'assault' instead of 'bastion'?).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Qestroy
Bio-Tech Research
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:01:00 -
[775] - Quote
... Interesting... Doesn't really effect PVE other than tanking is now much easier, still don't see a very big jump in their use in anything else though... Too expensive, too easily lost and simply not effective enough to warrant use. I notice bastion doesn't give any bonus to damage output itself, making pirate ships still just as good if not better for PvE
I am disappointed in the drone bay reductions, not being able to field a full flight of medium scout drones will really gimp their PvE effectiveness next to the pirate ships |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:04:00 -
[776] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Random Woman wrote:Pirate Faction battleships will still be better for lvl 4 missions and stuff like that I guess. (last time I tried a L4 is was in a mael and that was good enough like 2-3 years ago, not really my cup of tea so i could be wrong here) consider yourself corrected. EWAR immunity, combined with a 25% range buff (which for most turret weapons is essentially the same as a dps buff), combined with a free omnitank slot (invul/EANM) will completely demolish all faction/pirate ships in lvl4s. while mobility can be an issue in a few missions, most can be done effectively by standing still and burning targets as they approach, thus negating the only 'drawback' of the bastion module (can we call it 'assault' instead of 'bastion'?).
ewar immunity doesnt effect pve much, at least missions and incursions (i dont have much experience in anoms/plex/etc) range buff is meh.... you only do additional dps IF you are too far from the NPCs, so if you have a long enough range damage weapon, then additional range beyond that doesnt help much - esp if you just move to be in correct range -
|

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Noob Much Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:05:00 -
[777] - Quote
As someone before me already said, the tractor bonus is outdated with the introduction of the Noctis.
Might as well remove it or replace it with something useful (like, make it into a role bonus: "Tractor beams work on enemy ships" ) |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
481
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:10:00 -
[778] - Quote
CCP, I have said earlier that I think the changes are wonderful, BUT I really think you guys ought to consider Marauders as they relate to PVE platforms, and specifically with Incursions. Incursions are, I believe, the "pinnacle" of high sec PVE, and as such, Marauders should have a place there. With the Bastion module, however, I think Marauders in Incursions will be limited, because it disables the ability to receive reps.
Thus, I would suggest that perhaps you make TWO BASTION MODULES:
One Bastion variant would do the same that the current proposed Bastion module does, and the
other Bastion variant would provide bonuses that make it a competent ship in Incursions, perhaps receiving a bonus to received reps, tracking bonus, or similar.
The idea is NOT to buff Marauders into mini dreads, so I don't think that adding damage bonuses on the "Incurision-oriented Bastion Module" is right, but a tracking bonus, explosion radius/velocity or similar damage application bonus, since Incursions are always run with Logi support and are often firing at smaller targets. Both Bastion modules would render the ship immobile, but one would buff its tank and make it ewar immune and the other would buff its damage application but it would be SUSCEPTIBLE to ewar.
Having two modules would provide compelling choices for strong tank/ewar immunity/damage range VS better damage application for smaller targets. Perhaps this is where you could build in a web range/speed bonus or similar. Again, the idea is NOT to buff their damage but to provide compelling gameplay decisions that we as players love. It would also add an element of surprise to someone engaging a Marauder. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1393
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:10:00 -
[779] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Random Woman wrote:Pirate Faction battleships will still be better for lvl 4 missions and stuff like that I guess. (last time I tried a L4 is was in a mael and that was good enough like 2-3 years ago, not really my cup of tea so i could be wrong here) consider yourself corrected. EWAR immunity, combined with a 25% range buff (which for most turret weapons is essentially the same as a dps buff), combined with a free omnitank slot (invul/EANM) will completely demolish all faction/pirate ships in lvl4s. while mobility can be an issue in a few missions, most can be done effectively by standing still and burning targets as they approach, thus negating the only 'drawback' of the bastion module (can we call it 'assault' instead of 'bastion'?). ewar immunity doesnt effect pve much, at least missions and incursions (i dont have much experience in anoms/plex/etc) range buff is meh.... you only do additional dps IF you are too far from the NPCs, so if you have a long enough range damage weapon, then additional range beyond that doesnt help much - esp if you just move to be in correct range - wow. literally every statement in your post is wrong. firstly, if you think that ewar is not relevant in missions, you probably never ran the blockade (among others). secondly, if you have a 'long enough range' weapon, chances are this weapon has less dps than a short range weapon. this buff allows you to fit high damage weapons, use high damage ammo and still project to relevant ranges. thirdly and most importantly, if you have to move before you are in the 'correct' range, you are wasting dps. an ideal mission ship lands on grid and starts shooting immediately, speed is just a bonus to reach the next warp gate quicker.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
1170
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:12:00 -
[780] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
Have you ever flown in Incursions? Going 10 seconds let alone 60 without remote reps is a death wish especially in squishy Paladins in a TCRC An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
|

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:13:00 -
[781] - Quote
Why 3 of 4 Marauders got additional damage bonus (5% damage or 5% rof) while Golem doesnt? And why u removed EW bonus from all of them again except of Golem?
Target painter is usable only for targets being rather close and only if u got torpedoes, its useless on cruise missiles since they got 5 times better optimal and already got reduced signature while bonuses like '5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level' affects both close range and long range turrets.
In other hand u should change bonus on rest marauders to only pulse lasers, autocanons and blasters, or give Golem comparable bonus which will affect both close and long range missiles, not only the close ones.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:14:00 -
[782] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those  Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
i think it still makes more sense to use tactical reconfiguration to make it on the path towards dreads, makes a lot of sense to just change the description of the tactical reconfiguration skill...
I absolutely agree that for incursions, you "could" just turn off bastion mode when taking fire, and although it will annoy the logies to no end waiting to rep you, it seems possible..... but the ship STILL has poor buffer - one of the reasons it wasnt popular in incursions beforehand - and local reps just arent enough for incursions. So yeah, inconvenient, but possible to use in incursions... maybe.... i dont know, even 30 seconds is a LONG time, you may have to have a local module just to hold out enough time, gimping your normal tank or dps
So what do we get in exchange for all this inconvenience? A sniping bonus....well the thing is we dont need a ship to sniper to further ranges or even do higher damage at sniper ranges. The amount of ehp sansha have at sniping ranges is insignifant compared to the amount of sansha ehp that is sitting at dps range - and even so we have enough snipers in incursions - once there were not many but then everyone trained them, snipers are the majority and this new bastion-sniper would be useless in incursions.
Oh yeah and it wouldnt be able to move either, and MJDs are simply not an option in incursions. With an mwd these would reach AB speeds.... so its damage against everything but sniper targets would be much less then current snipers |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:15:00 -
[783] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP, I have said earlier that I think the changes are wonderful, BUT I really think you guys ought to consider Marauders as they relate to PVE platforms, and specifically with Incursions. Incursions are, I believe, the "pinnacle" of high sec PVE, and as such, Marauders should have a place there. With the Bastion module, however, I think Marauders in Incursions will be limited, because it disables the ability to receive reps.
Thus, I would suggest that perhaps you make TWO BASTION MODULES:
One Bastion variant would do the same that the current proposed Bastion module does, and the
other Bastion variant would provide bonuses that make it a competent ship in Incursions, perhaps receiving a bonus to received reps, tracking bonus, or similar.
The idea is NOT to buff Marauders into mini dreads, so I don't think that adding damage bonuses on the "Incurision-oriented Bastion Module" is right, but a tracking bonus, explosion radius/velocity or similar damage application bonus, since Incursions are always run with Logi support and are often firing at smaller targets. Both Bastion modules would render the ship immobile, but one would buff its tank and make it ewar immune and the other would buff its damage application but it would be SUSCEPTIBLE to ewar.
Having two modules would provide compelling choices for strong tank/ewar immunity/damage range VS better damage application for smaller targets. Perhaps this is where you could build in a web range/speed bonus or similar. Again, the idea is NOT to buff their damage but to provide compelling gameplay decisions that we as players love. It would also add an element of surprise to someone engaging a Marauder.
OR instead of having 2 bastion modules, have 1 be the module, and give the other bonuses to the NON-Bastion mode of the ship
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2641
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:16:00 -
[784] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC?
No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted".
As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec.
Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate.
It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me.
|

EXIA MIKOSZ
Strike Birds Zero
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:16:00 -
[785] - Quote
Cheyenne Shadowborn wrote:As someone before me already said, the tractor bonus is outdated with the introduction of the Noctis. Might as well remove it or replace it with something useful (like, make it into a role bonus: "Tractor beams work on enemy ships"  )
Yes its Outdated and should be improved to 200% Not Everybody Use Noctis and that Bonus is very welcome in many players Play Style Dont Like it?Well u cant make everybody happy |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:16:00 -
[786] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Random Woman wrote:Pirate Faction battleships will still be better for lvl 4 missions and stuff like that I guess. (last time I tried a L4 is was in a mael and that was good enough like 2-3 years ago, not really my cup of tea so i could be wrong here) consider yourself corrected. EWAR immunity, combined with a 25% range buff (which for most turret weapons is essentially the same as a dps buff), combined with a free omnitank slot (invul/EANM) will completely demolish all faction/pirate ships in lvl4s. while mobility can be an issue in a few missions, most can be done effectively by standing still and burning targets as they approach, thus negating the only 'drawback' of the bastion module (can we call it 'assault' instead of 'bastion'?). ewar immunity doesnt effect pve much, at least missions and incursions (i dont have much experience in anoms/plex/etc) range buff is meh.... you only do additional dps IF you are too far from the NPCs, so if you have a long enough range damage weapon, then additional range beyond that doesnt help much - esp if you just move to be in correct range - wow. literally every statement in your post is wrong. firstly, if you think that ewar is not relevant in missions, you probably never ran the blockade (among others). secondly, if you have a 'long enough range' weapon, chances are this weapon has less dps than a short range weapon. this buff allows you to fit high damage weapons, use high damage ammo and still project to relevant ranges. thirdly and most importantly, if you have to move before you are in the 'correct' range, you are wasting dps. an ideal mission ship lands on grid and starts shooting immediately, speed is just a bonus to reach the next warp gate quicker.
tachyons. |

Jill'iam
L'Avant Garde
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:17:00 -
[787] - Quote
Personally, I wouldn't mix the purposes of the Marauders. Either have them specifically for PVP or PVE and take the Tier 3 battleship and fill the missing role as the T2 varient.
Ie: Vargur (tempest) = PVP (norse name of some sort) (Maelstrom) = PVE
:2cents:
|

Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:17:00 -
[788] - Quote
I want to echo all the other people asking for "please not another high-multiplier skill for a module only one extremely niche ship uses." This really sounds like the sort of thing that Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration does. (although I'll concede that Tactical Defensive Reconfiguration might be a reasonable description of what this module is actually doing...) The Black Ops battleship, though, is a not-unreasonable stepping-stone to capital ships because it shares jump skills. If Marauders share TWR, then both T2 battleships would be reasonable stepping stones (even if you don't need Racial Battleship V to inject the dread skill anymore) to some kind of capital ship. I like that idea, and, with the proposal as it is now, that's not really the case. This really feels like a ship for your alt to fly, even if it does have some entertaining possibilities outside of missions.
I was also going to advocate for the Kronos to get an optimal bonus instead of falloff, but blasters need the extra falloff range, and rails really don't need the extra optimal range nearly as badly if you deploy into bastion. You'll probably only be using antimatter and javelin, though. |

A'Tolkar
Carlson's Raiders
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:20:00 -
[789] - Quote
I only got about 17 pages or so into this thread and didn't feel like reading another 20, so this may have already come up:
It seems that with the Nighthawk having the 5% level missile explosion velocity bonus swapped for a 5% missile explosion radius bonus, I figured the same would happen with the Golem. Granted, I have never flown a Golem, and maybe never will, but given the past change, I thought the same might happen with the Golem. Any reason why the explosion velocity bonus isn't changing? |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2641
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:20:00 -
[790] - Quote
MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing.
[/quote]
Or you could have enough drones or web bonus to deal with frigs not run away from them..but i guess doing it wrong is the right way nova days....[/quote]
If you want to work harder at it than you need to, that's up to you. I use webs and drones too, but the MJD is an emergeny escape hatch for it is all goes to pot.
For instance in null sec. Sometimes you get pointed by multiple NPCs at the exact wrong time (a neutral or red comes in while you're chewing on the 4 frigs pointing you). MJD lets you say "nope, gonna mjd, then warp to a safe. Same goes for high sec lvl 4s, some of which can still kill you if yo make a mistake. MJD lets you say "ha ha, no you can't kill my domi Mr serpentis).
But hey, don't let me stop you from using the classical 2005 style of missioning. Some of us just like to be all modern and what-not 
|
|

Celly S
Viziam Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:24:00 -
[791] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Wow. Mini dreads. Ok....
So it would seem... I recall posting in a feeback thread elsewhere that we needed mini dreads (and some other stuffs) so imagine my delight at seeing this and your description.
:)
o/ Celly Smunt. Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |

Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:25:00 -
[792] - Quote
Cheyenne Shadowborn wrote:As someone before me already said, the tractor bonus is outdated with the introduction of the Noctis. Might as well remove it or replace it with something useful (like, make it into a role bonus: "Tractor beams work on enemy ships"  ) Quote:i dont see why we should have to turn off safety in order to use a module in highsec for PVE that couldnt possibly hit something we didnt lock and fire at. It kind of defeats the purpose of the "set to green, you are safe from doing illegals" idea.... Same thing I was thinking. Why would you get a weapon timer purely for activating that module? Wouldn't you get a weapon timer once you shoot someone with it, anyways? You don't get a timer that prevents docking/gate jumping from shooting, say, mission rats in non-bastion mode, why would bastion mode neccessitate that? It just seems that CCP is needlessly employing game mechanics here. With this mechanic, people will potentially need to sit out timers at the end of pure PVE missions before they can even dock.
This also, safety should not need to be disabled to use this module. I am fine with it giving off a weapon timer, but it should not require safety orange. Considering the price off these ships you dont want any mishaps in HS. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:26:00 -
[793] - Quote
A'Tolkar wrote:I only got about 17 pages or so into this thread and didn't feel like reading another 20, so this may have already come up:
It seems that with the Nighthawk having the 5% level missile explosion velocity bonus swapped for a 5% missile explosion radius bonus, I figured the same would happen with the Golem. Granted, I have never flown a Golem, and maybe never will, but given the past change, I thought the same might happen with the Golem. Any reason why the explosion velocity bonus isn't changing?
This + removing target painter bonus and placing 5% damage bonus to torpedoes and cruise missiles, since rest of marauders got additional 5% bonus to damage or rof for all large turrets, Golem is the only one who doesnt got it. |

Celly S
Viziam Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:26:00 -
[794] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:This could be a lot of fun, but I am gonna miss the drones that were cut down.
Sentinels in particular would be a great compliment to an immobile gun platform.
I agree
OFC we would have to remember to pull them in before we MJD'd but that's not too hard to do factoring in the spoolup time
o/ Celly Smunt
Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |

Celly S
Viziam Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:30:00 -
[795] - Quote
Sekeris wrote:Cheyenne Shadowborn wrote:As someone before me already said, the tractor bonus is outdated with the introduction of the Noctis. Might as well remove it or replace it with something useful (like, make it into a role bonus: "Tractor beams work on enemy ships"  ) Quote:i dont see why we should have to turn off safety in order to use a module in highsec for PVE that couldnt possibly hit something we didnt lock and fire at. It kind of defeats the purpose of the "set to green, you are safe from doing illegals" idea.... Same thing I was thinking. Why would you get a weapon timer purely for activating that module? Wouldn't you get a weapon timer once you shoot someone with it, anyways? You don't get a timer that prevents docking/gate jumping from shooting, say, mission rats in non-bastion mode, why would bastion mode neccessitate that? It just seems that CCP is needlessly employing game mechanics here. With this mechanic, people will potentially need to sit out timers at the end of pure PVE missions before they can even dock. This also, safety should not need to be disabled to use this module. I am fine with it giving off a weapon timer, but it should not require safety orange. Considering the price off these ships you dont want any mishaps in HS.
This too... Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1393
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:32:00 -
[796] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:tachyons. mission rats spawn up to 130km away. tachs have 45 optimal + 45 falloff. when you get TDed it's 20 optimal + 20 falloff unless you switch to lower damage ammo.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Soldari Orion
Empty Wallets Inc. Fidelas Constans
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:33:00 -
[797] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
velocity is both range - falloff, and will apply damage better.
It's because the missile equation doesn't use two stats for what gunnery uses two stats for. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
80
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:34:00 -
[798] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP, I have said earlier that I think the changes are wonderful, BUT I really think you guys ought to consider Marauders as they relate to PVE platforms, and specifically with Incursions. Incursions are, I believe, the "pinnacle" of high sec PVE, and as such, Marauders should have a place there. With the Bastion module, however, I think Marauders in Incursions will be limited, because it disables the ability to receive reps.
Thus, I would suggest that perhaps you make TWO BASTION MODULES:
One Bastion variant would do the same that the current proposed Bastion module does, and the
other Bastion variant would provide bonuses that make it a competent ship in Incursions, perhaps receiving a bonus to received reps, tracking bonus, or similar.
The idea is NOT to buff Marauders into mini dreads, so I don't think that adding damage bonuses on the "Incurision-oriented Bastion Module" is right, but a tracking bonus, explosion radius/velocity or similar damage application bonus, since Incursions are always run with Logi support and are often firing at smaller targets. Both Bastion modules would render the ship immobile, but one would buff its tank and make it ewar immune and the other would buff its damage application but it would be SUSCEPTIBLE to ewar.
Having two modules would provide compelling choices for strong tank/ewar immunity/damage range VS better damage application for smaller targets. Perhaps this is where you could build in a web range/speed bonus or similar. Again, the idea is NOT to buff their damage but to provide compelling gameplay decisions that we as players love. It would also add an element of surprise to someone engaging a Marauder. OR instead of having 2 bastion modules, have 1 be the module, and give the other bonuses to the NON-Bastion mode of the ship
*cough* scripts *cough* |

Aust Silverfrond
Black Slag Authenticated You Failed the Mumble Test
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:35:00 -
[799] - Quote
Replace Paladin's cap bonus with tracking buff, replace Golem's target painter buff to explosion radius redux, and replace the sets tractor beam buff with something useful please. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
218
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:36:00 -
[800] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC? No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted". As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec. Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate. It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me. This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info. Bokononist
-á |
|

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
482
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:40:00 -
[801] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP, I have said earlier that I think the changes are wonderful, BUT I really think you guys ought to consider Marauders as they relate to PVE platforms, and specifically with Incursions. Incursions are, I believe, the "pinnacle" of high sec PVE, and as such, Marauders should have a place there. With the Bastion module, however, I think Marauders in Incursions will be limited, because it disables the ability to receive reps.
Thus, I would suggest that perhaps you make TWO BASTION MODULES:
One Bastion variant would do the same that the current proposed Bastion module does, and the
other Bastion variant would provide bonuses that make it a competent ship in Incursions, perhaps receiving a bonus to received reps, tracking bonus, or similar.
The idea is NOT to buff Marauders into mini dreads, so I don't think that adding damage bonuses on the "Incurision-oriented Bastion Module" is right, but a tracking bonus, explosion radius/velocity or similar damage application bonus, since Incursions are always run with Logi support and are often firing at smaller targets. Both Bastion modules would render the ship immobile, but one would buff its tank and make it ewar immune and the other would buff its damage application but it would be SUSCEPTIBLE to ewar.
Having two modules would provide compelling choices for strong tank/ewar immunity/damage range VS better damage application for smaller targets. Perhaps this is where you could build in a web range/speed bonus or similar. Again, the idea is NOT to buff their damage but to provide compelling gameplay decisions that we as players love. It would also add an element of surprise to someone engaging a Marauder. OR instead of having 2 bastion modules, have 1 be the module, and give the other bonuses to the NON-Bastion mode of the ship *cough* scripts *cough* Scripts would make it too easy to adapt the ship. Fitting choices--and thus role choices--are made when you undock and not in space. Otherwise, why not make a module that improves tracking or damage and just have it scripted? TCs and Damage mods are separated to force you to choose before you undock if you want two divergent things. Tanking vs damage really isn't something that'd be on a script.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1393
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:40:00 -
[802] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC? No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted". As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec. Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate. It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me. This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info. someone else will have to confirm this for sleepers, but aside from that, my experience has been the same so far. the same thing holds for MWDs btw, which makes it a valid tactic to just align and burn out of the rat tacklers' range.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
151
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:41:00 -
[803] - Quote
Suggestion:
Do this with marauders: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders
Add the extra mass, reduce the speed, nerf the sensor strength, increase mjd recovery speed, remove the RR and mwd bonuses and gimp the drone bay once you fit the bastion module. Now you have a fairly useful marauder for normal people(no active tank bonus and a bit more flexible than faction hulls at the cost of a bit of speed and dps) and people can still make them super tankers at undock or blink around the grid. To make it clear, drop the active tank bonus for the new damage application bonuses, with the Bastion module you can still tank extreme amounts of dps and it is redundant for most other uses.
Everybody should be happy with this. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Celly S
Viziam Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:41:00 -
[804] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction. Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps. And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..  Other than that.. AWESOME!
for the folks who don't employ the MJD and such, those bonuses would still serve a purpose in missioning, so while they aren't "used" as much now-a-days, I'd have to say they really aren't "outdated" yet.
and let's not forget that not everyone flies or fits like some of us do, so CCP is likely leaving the room there for all types of fits rather than just 1.
o/ Celly Smunt
Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
277
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:43:00 -
[805] - Quote
Ben Booley wrote:This change effectively ruins them as a PVP ship.
Outside of the tiny tiny niche of solo players (with links) going up against 5-10 people, the bastion module is worthless. Even against those numbers, if they have neuts, most active tanks will turn off. While an ASB can still run, you'll lose any hardeners, or any tackle to keep people there. Neuts will completely shut off an armor tank, and any weapons used by that armor tank.
At over 10 people, you'll die to alpha. Being able to MJD more frequently doesn't help since they probably have scrams. So you drop into bastion, shoot some things for a bit (but not doing any more damage than a BS that actually has mobility), hope they don't get out of your range, and tank a lot of DPS, but with minimal EHP. There are so many dreads in game, and marauders are sufficiently shiny, that if you bastion more than a handful of marauders someone will drop a moros on them and just alpha through the marauders effortlessly, as they can't even move for transversal.
Outside of bastion mode, the low sensor strength renders them incredibly easy to jam, and for the paladin and kronos losing their 90% webs significantly reduces their utility to an armor fleet.
The faster MJD bonus, as we saw when the revenant had a jump range bonus, is useless. It really doesn't matter if the marauder can MJD every 54 seconds, as long as the rest of the fleet is still stuck at 180 seconds, as no sane FC will split the hell out of their fleet just to keep a marauder pilot alive, and I really doubt we'll see gangs or fleets of marauders.
Their rep bonuses line up for solo work as even a boosted tank won't be able to fight an even mid sized gang, and without remote effects in bastion mode they're limited to each ship being on it's own. They're utterly useless outside bastion mode, and only mostly useless inside bastion mode, so they have no way to work in a fleet.
Dreads and carriers, the two other ships with something similar to bastion mode, increase their ability to do things to other people when locked in place, either by doing more damage or having better RR. The marauder needs the same. Bastion mode is useless when it only affects itself. I would give them ~3-4k dps in bastion mode, enough that they can be a real threat to BS and capitals while sieged, but not enough to eclipse dreads completely in K-space. That 3-4k dps would, however, be a massive fix for two of the biggest pains in the game, highsec and low W-space POSes. You can't hit those with dreads, and hardened they take forever in a BS, particularly in low tier WHs where you can't fit all that many ships through.
Marauders need to do something like that, something that has impact on other players, rather than pure tank, if they want to be a good PVP ship. As it stands, bastion mode will be astoundingly good for lvl 4 missions and some anoms, and possibly incursions (i don't know enough about incursions to know if the increased local tank would be enough to make up for no logi in an incursion or not).
I really want to like this change since it's ~cool~, but as it stands it makes the marauder a massive pile of ****.
Tiny niche of solo to small gangs of up to 10 people? You mean we can ACTUALLY FIGHT WITH A GANG OF UNDER 10 PEOPLE??? 3-4k DPS would be overpowered without some sort of enormous tracking nerf, which would make them useless for shooting subcapitals. It will take more than 10 people to kill one of these marauders, given that my PVP fit Vargur has 70k omni-EHP now, before the 30% across the board resist buff.
Honestly, this will be a a buff as well as a nerf to small gang PVP, since soloers will love to use them, but at the same time not be able to kill them. We'll see how it plays out. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:51:00 -
[806] - Quote
I'm going to have to agree with a lot of people here, and say that the current iteration as it is on paper will not mean the marauders get to see any PVP action, and will ruin the few niche roles they had (web). Why? Because they can't receive remote reps.
The only upside to deploying in bastion mode you then have left is a measly 25% range. That's it. Furthermore, the immobility of bastion module is completely at odds with the mjd mobility.
As some people have said before, maybe the bastion module is better reserved for differen T2 ships, and dubbed demolition module or something, with actually increased DPS. More mobility, tracking, maybe even warp strength as has been mentioned before would do the marauders more good.
The only alternative to this would be to remove the bonus to local rep from the bastion module and enable them to receive RR. That way they can be used as a sniper fleet doctrine, being vulnerable to bombs.
I just don't know. As a marauder pilot, I'm liking this for missioning so far, the extra tank meaning I can just slap on an extra heatsink, but I'll mourn the loss of drones. To be honest, tracking or damage bonuses would have been far preferred for the pve side of things, marauders are already good on tank.
With the proposed changes, there's -STILL- no way in hell I will fly a marauder into PVP. Why would I? There's nothing the ship does other than mjd around that another ship can do, and MJD doesn't work in bastion, and when you forgo bastion you still get jammed to hell.
Like with the transport ships iteration, I'm just going to shout "NO", and hope you come up with something better for round 2. |

Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
48
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:54:00 -
[807] - Quote
Hey CCP,
Fantastic ideas - it's about time we had more visual treats like the new Bastion module transformations. Can't wait to see what they look like! I've had a good read and I agree with most of the post and am looking forward to the implementation, but...
I think I'm flogging a dead horse here, but for the level of skill investment one of these ships are going to require, and with a bit of practical though applied (not saying you didn't):
Remove the tractor bonus. Seriously. We have the Noctis. Marauder tractors are obsolete. Remeber that T2 hulls are supposed to be 'specialised' versions of T1 hulls. Pew pew and tractor (and/or salvage) is not specialisation. These bad boys should be combat powerhouses.
I'm not convinced the MJD is effective at all in a PvE role, given the sizes of mission areas and the distances between gates. Movement will be very imprecise and pretty finickey. PvE mission environments never change on a scale that requires a 'quick reaction' of a 100km jump. Marauder speed should remain unchanged, or you're effectively asking for a dual-prop fit if we want to move between gates in a timely fashion and also use a MJD. I don't think you should try to justify the module by changing an entire ship class to require it. Not yet.
In keeping with their hull size, Battleships should have at least 50/75 drone capacity. This will not only allow us to take care of elite frigates with medium drones that will actually live long enough to kill them, but if you go temporarily insane and decide to keep the tractor bonus, this means we can take a flight of salvage drones too, to pair up with the tractors. Especially if you're pulling the webbing bonus.
Overall I think the Bastion module is a great idea. But I think that trying to force the MJD on players, and pulling the web bonuses completely, is not. Perhaps some minor slot and attribute changes to the Marauder hulls, yes, but not massive drone and web changes. Small steps. __________________ Chief Executive Officer Instar Heavy Industries |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2642
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:58:00 -
[808] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC? No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted". As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec. Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate. It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me. This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info.
Your very welcome. I must share my carebearing power with all!
|

Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:59:00 -
[809] - Quote
The proposed seem interesting, will have to see how it plays before I can really judge.
What I'd like to strongly suggest, however, is a SECOND Marauder per Race, utilizing each race's secondary weapons platform.
I.e. for Amarr, a Khanid Ship using Armor/Missiles (Torps). For Caldari, a Shield/Railgun Platform. Etc.
The original T2 way of doing things, with TWO T2 Variants of each T1 Hull, is still the best way. I'd strongly suggest any ship-class that lacks a second T2 variant (EAF's for example, one HAC per race, etc) get their second T2 at some point, offering racial alternatives to the core racial weapons/tanking systems.
TLDR: Black Khanid Torp Baddon Marauder please. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2642
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:00:00 -
[810] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Zaxix wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC? No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted". As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec. Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate. It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me. This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info. someone else will have to confirm this for sleepers, but aside from that, my experience has been the same so far. the same thing holds for MWDs btw, which makes it a valid tactic to just align and burn out of the rat tacklers' range.
I dual prop my ships (MWD and MJD) for this very reason. Once in a DED plex I Eff'd up and let my cap get a tad to low for MJD so I rolled the rice and MWD'd away till I capped out, it was enough, i made it out of that plex.
|
|

Ashente
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:02:00 -
[811] - Quote
I don't like these changes. If you do go with the MJD /Bastion module idea, I would only suggest that you increase the tractor bonus to 200% or even 300%. And make it so it can't activate that bastion module within docking range so there's no station docking game bullshit coming from this.
I believe that this new ship Idea should come in for an entirely new ship. Maybe make a second marauder with a different hull that utilizes this module and MJD bonus and keep the other ones as what they are with a bit better stats so they can be considered for pvp engagements.
I would suggest to make the kronos a touch faster than the megathron. Rebalance stats so they have a good sensor strength and scan resolution, so that they can be considered for a pvp role, keep the web bonus, and drone bay.
Drop the MJD /bastion module idea and put it towards a different hull.
|

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1522
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:02:00 -
[812] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Again why 3 of marauders got double range bonus when in siege (25% to optimal and fallof making them 50% total) while golem got only one 25% to missile velocity, where is 25% to flight time?
I'm going to break this down because I die inside every single time I see this or similar claims.
Let's pretend we have a turret ship with 20+20km range (optimal and falloff). We also have a missile ship with flight time 3 seconds and velocity of 10km/second.
The turret ship hits perfectly out to 20km (neglecting tracking) and enters falloff where it starts to slowly degrade in hit quality, reaching 80% at about 30km (optimal plus half falloff).
The missile ship pushes missiles out to 10km/s * 3s = 30km, give or take.
So now let's add 25% bonuses. We'll do missiles first: 25% velocity. Now we're going 12.5km/s * 3s and reaching 37.5km. Note that we could have achieved the same thing with a 25% flight time boost and the result would be identical.
Ok, turret time. First we'll add an optimal bonus: 25km +20km falloff pushes out the optimal range 25% and the optimal plus half falloff point out to 35km, short of a 25% increase.
So what if we just added falloff then? Well, then we're at 20km + 25km, so optimal plus half faloff is now 32.5 km. Still not out to that 37.5 point are we?
So what we do is add both optimal and falloff: 25km optimal plus 25km falloff gets a uniform 25% increase to effective range across all ranges.
So: why don't we get double range bonuses to missiles? Because they would apply to increase the range twice overall, while the double range bonuses to turrets effectively increases the range only once overall.
|

That Seems Legit
State War Academy Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:06:00 -
[813] - Quote
Lol. Cant move until the bastion cycle is over? Easy gank targets. We'll just need to bring more ships. Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps! |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2503

|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:09:00 -
[814] - Quote
Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this.
EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements autotrollmagicallychange all of a sudden . |
|

Novah Soul
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:15:00 -
[815] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements autotrollmagicallychange all of a sudden . Sounds good :) |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
277
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:16:00 -
[816] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote: The only upside to deploying in bastion mode you then have left is a measly 25% range. That's it. Furthermore, the immobility of bastion module is completely at odds with the mjd mobility. .
Please read the whole OP before posting
Bastion mode also gives 30% bonus to shield, armor, and structure resistances without stacking. Bastion mode gives a 100% bonus to armor rep amount and shield boost amount.
That's one hell of a bonus you're overlooking there. Not to mention, if you don't LIKE bastion mode, don't use it! How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:16:00 -
[817] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this.
The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.
As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.
A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.
Other than that, this is a really exciting proposal that I really look forward to seeing on Tq, if for no other reason than hoping to pop these things when they are used improperly :D The Law is a point of View |

Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
49
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:19:00 -
[818] - Quote
Webs are about more than just tracking and turrets. A lot of the fun of 90% webs is being able to hold a pilot that you catch in a bad position. If these changes go through the only options to lock a guy in place will be the daredevil and the vindi. Seriously - if you want us to always have a winmatar kite mentality - just remove webs from the game. You are taking all of the fun out of the kronos and paladin. It's nice when the different race ships have different special abilities. You're kind of making them all the same. (although the flat 80 reduction in siganature really really sets the vargur apart from the other 3 races)
I haven't seen you address the 10X mass questions. Can I push a button and make my BS the mass of a carrier and close a wh? I don't know if that's what you've intended, but that's what I'm going to use them for. It won't break wh space but it will be a massive game changer. Give me a cloak and a 'monster mass button' and I will trap pilot after pilot on the wrong side of wh. GAME CHANGER - HUGE.
As for the folks that are asking for a damage bonus in bastion mode - just come out and tell them no. If you give them a dreadlike damage bonus on a BS it will lay waste to C2,C3 and C4 class wh. I'm kind of sad to see that some of the folks asking for a mini-dread damage mode are wh folks. Higher class wh folks. SHAME ON YOU. It's just wrong and you know it. Quit lobbying for easy mode.
Lost |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
219
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:19:00 -
[819] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. I like this quick feedback thing. More please!
swap tractor for something awesome Bokononist
-á |

Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:20:00 -
[820] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. I like this news.... I like it a LOT!!! |
|

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
853
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:24:00 -
[821] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.
As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.
A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.
They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:26:00 -
[822] - Quote
ur math is somewhat wrong and u are failing to realize that missiles are not turrets and they need time to hit the target. Not even talking about situation where your targets is warping away before your missiles hit him. Moreover at longer range most of players are shooting more missiles than its needed, eg when u are firing another volley of missiles when previous is still in space flying to target. If that first volley finishes target, the second volley is not going to another target but just flying into space doing nothing.
If your missiles got 100km range with 10km/s and 10secs flight time, increasing speed by 25% will result in 12,5km/s speed * 10secs = 125km range
If your turrets got for example 100km optimal and 100km falloff, increasing both for 25% will make your optimal 100km + 25% = 125km and your fallof 100km + 25% = 125km, so u will be able to deal full damage at 125km and half damage at 250km.
Missiles cant do half damage at twice of their optimal since they dont have fallof. Your target can have 1 hp sitting at 1 meter above your missiles optimal and u wont kill him. |

Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:29:00 -
[823] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Kenrailae wrote:The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.
As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.
A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route. They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things.
Quoting OP:
'This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.'
Not much point 'stepping stone' for seige/triage if you're not gonna require fuel. The Law is a point of View |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
277
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:33:00 -
[824] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Kenrailae wrote:The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.
As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.
A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route. They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things. Quoting OP: 'This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.' Not much point 'stepping stone' for seige/triage if you're not gonna require fuel.
"Prolonged deployment" and "requiring bulky fuel"
Those two things are mutually exclusive. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:34:00 -
[825] - Quote
i dont think all when not any of this goes into round 2 but anywhy i try to give constructive critic
first thing first !!! dont just slam in another x8 skill make it in the marauder skill or max x4
this is just useless time and isk sink
now my two cents
pve point of view
but my suggestion would be bonus (((25% resists 25%local tank boost))) 25% damage bonus 25% tracking 25% optimal 25% falloff (25% exp radius / missile speed) (maybe +5% per level) would be worth it. (sounds overpowerd but isnt! u get like 1150 dps out of most marauders with resonable fitting out to 100km or 800dps out to 200km no tank needed with mjd bonus)
the damagebonus is quite crucial to be used. cause i and a lot of people i talked to wouldnt use this in null because thanks to the overview change 1 min is too long to get out of anoms .
The tractor Bonus should be brought inline with noctis range or mjd 100% per lvl of marauder so 100 for t1 120 for t2 bonus on salvage drones no extra high (drone bay of 50 min)
mjd sounds not toooo bad after thinking and talking about
smartbomb range would be awesome bonus
these would be good changes 4 pve
for pvp
why this PVE orientet ship should be viable in PVP a super isnt viable in PVE right or a (h)dictor
why taking away a pve ship from the game just to make it slighty useable (maybe) in pvp and not leave it a pve ship
other approach make it a pvp ship and dont think about pve so
no tractor beam bonus -> damage bonus (>50%) to make it viable to siege risk vs reward thing
dreads wouldnt go to siege if they would get no damage bonus on it
think about it a dread with 100% optimal bonus in siege local tank bonus and ewar immunity#
what would u do ?
cyno in closer and remote rep the **** out of attacker / pos guns
please rethink changes
there are alot of good points in this thread.
options imho
1 maybe second marauder hull 1 pve 1pvp
2 stay pve ship with all commitment
3 change to a pvp ship but then remove all pve bonuses and live with it that it wont be used alot
and some questions afterwards :
ewar immuntiy includes or not : defender neut/nos paint ?
why nerf this moon size sigged ships ehp ?
why it has to be pvp viable and when will my (h)dictor will have a pve niche
|

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:34:00 -
[826] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Kaeden Dourhand wrote: The only upside to deploying in bastion mode you then have left is a measly 25% range. That's it. Furthermore, the immobility of bastion module is completely at odds with the mjd mobility. .
Please read the whole OP before postingBastion mode also gives 30% bonus to shield, armor, and structure resistances without stacking. Bastion mode gives a 100% bonus to armor rep amount and shield boost amount. That's one hell of a bonus you're overlooking there. Not to mention, if you don't LIKE bastion mode, don't use it!
It also helps if you read MY post before replying :)
I said the only upside to bastion mode in blob warfare would be the range, because losing ability to be remote repped is far worse than the ability to increase your own local tank. You'll still just get shot right off the field.
So the only merit for the bastion module in blob warfare is the extra range.. and that's nothing to write home about. |

mr stephenson
Dodgy at Best
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:39:00 -
[827] - Quote
Pretty please can we have a new ship. 
what if you iterated on the current hulls to have a -50% fitting cost for mjd's plus the new cycle time bonus and esentially leave them as they are (possible tweeking bonuses and stats a little for a more pvp role) maybe charnge the ewar bonus to a more all round 50% range and 50% strength.
then devolop a new ship from scratch with this bastion module in mind. that way its taylored to fit rather than as it is now a bit muddled. |

Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:40:00 -
[828] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Kenrailae wrote:The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.
As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.
A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route. They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things. Quoting OP: 'This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.' Not much point 'stepping stone' for seige/triage if you're not gonna require fuel. "Prolonged deployment" and "requiring bulky fuel" Those two things are mutually exclusive.
Use Heavy water then.
Or isotopes.
Or if it really gets you off, use Hobgoblin II's as fuel. What the fuel is doesn't matter as much as that it IS used.
The most common role, PVP wise, I can see these being used in is sieging High Sec POS's.
Add the layer to the game of NEEDING to plan for fuel, to have fuel on standby, create the opportunity for disrupting War plans by making a vulnerable spot(Read ganking fuel haulers) so peeps can't just warp from tower to tower with a couple guardians to provide cap.
Limiting the dimensions of a mechanic because it's inconvenient doesn't create content and opportunity.
Fuel costs are as critical to Capitals as having cyno's to move systems.
BLops BS step stone into the Cyno jumping Mechanic. With a fuel bay.
Why should Marauders NOT step stone into Siege/Triage? With a fuel bay.
And since when has a Marauder been on 'long deployment' lol?
The Law is a point of View |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:41:00 -
[829] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
awesome feedback....glad to see the skill change and safety issue resolved. I like all the things that the weapons timer does to the module so people cant just instant dock etc etc, just hope we dont have any weapons timer related effects that interact with the rest of the criminal system.... would hate for a loophole to change my weapons timer into suspect timer..... |

baltec1
Bat Country
7737
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:43:00 -
[830] - Quote
Did CCP Ytterbium just offer me a Megathron with a mancannon option?
|
|

Leucy Kerastase
650BN
20
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:44:00 -
[831] - Quote
Pretty much would like to see the TP cycle time reduction in Odyssey 1.1.1 or something. [url]http://eve-j.blogspot.com/[/url]: Translations of EVE related stuff (mainly dev posts) into Japanese. |

Zhaniz
xX-Crusader-Xx Li3 Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:45:00 -
[832] - Quote
so if this the link between Battleships and Dreads,
it makes me think is there going to be a new T2 battleship to be the link between battleship and carriers??
hmmmm |

Vayn Baxtor
Ultra High Ping Crew
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:45:00 -
[833] - Quote
I'm guessing the "long deployment" has a different definition than ours/the playerbase.
While I like the idea of breaking the ice with new approaches, I still don't get why this mindset cannot be projected on other ships in a lighter variant.
Since I don't fancy Marauders much, I won't be too mouthy about them in this thread, but I do wonder how Highsec fights will be once these are on the field. Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4557
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:46:00 -
[834] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:ur math is somewhat wrong and u are failing to realize that missiles are not turrets and they need time to hit the target. Not even talking about situation where your targets is warping away before your missiles hit him. Moreover at longer range most of players are shooting more missiles than its needed, eg when u are firing another volley of missiles when previous is still in space flying to target. If that first volley finishes target, the second volley is not going to another target but just flying into space doing nothing. If your missiles got 100km range with 10km/s and 10secs flight time, increasing speed by 25% will result in 12,5km/s speed * 10secs = 125km range If your turrets got for example 100km optimal and 100km falloff, increasing both for 25% will make your optimal 100km + 25% = 125km and your fallof 100km + 25% = 125km, so u will be able to deal full damage at 125km and half damage at 250km. Missiles cant do half damage at twice of their optimal since they dont have fallof. Your target can have 1 hp sitting at 1 meter above your missiles optimal and u wont kill him. And dont say word about tracking since turrets got tracking issues only if target is close enought while missiles got their issues no matter if target is close or far away (explosion velocity thing). U can counter tracking on turreted ship by moving at proper direction (for example away from target), but u cant counter low explosion velocity of your missiles.
You are comparing a ship with a range of 100km with a ship that has a 200km range. Does that actually make sense to you? 
A 25% bonus to both optimal and fall off equals a total range increase of 25%. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:51:00 -
[835] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Why 3 of 4 Marauders got additional damage bonus (5% damage or 5% rof) while Golem doesnt?. Why u removed EW bonus from all of them again except of Golem?. Again why 3 of marauders got double range bonus when in siege (25% to optimal and fallof making them 50% total) while golem got only one 25% to missile velocity, where is 25% to flight time?. I already asked about defenders and fact that turreted marauders will be invulnerable to tracking disruptors while Golem will still have his missiles destroyed by defender missiles, and almost all npc ships uses defenders ;)
Target painter is usable only for targets being rather close and only if u got torpedoes, its useless on cruise missiles since they got 5 times better optimal and already got reduced signature. In other hand, bonuses like '5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level' affects both close range and long range turrets.
Thats why u should change damage bonus on rest marauders to affect only pulse lasers, autocanons and blasters, or get rid of useless target painter bonus and give Golem proper comparable bonus which will affect both close and long range missiles, not only the close ones. why does the golem need a damage bonus? golem is the only one that can pick its damage type at will, and does comparable dps to the other marauders as is (yay cruise missile buff) oh yea, and it has crazy range!
also the painter bonus is pretty sweet. lets you use your rigs for damage. with missile speed rigs and the missile speed bonus from bastion you shouldn't lose missiles to defenders, the cruise missiles simply move too fast for defenders to hit. also they will go fast enough you wont need to count volleys out to like 120km or so.
plus with the changes the golem will only really need a 2 slot tank, so lots of free room for all sorts of mods.
You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
208
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:51:00 -
[836] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:The most common role, PVP wise, I can see these being used in is sieging High Sec POS's.
Add the layer to the game of NEEDING to plan for fuel, to have fuel on standby, create the opportunity for disrupting War plans by making a vulnerable spot(Read ganking fuel haulers) so peeps can't just warp from tower to tower with a couple guardians to provide cap. I don't understand this. In current planned state, Marauders will not be like actual dreads. They won't do additional damage. They'll just do it from farther away.
Why would people go to all the trouble just to shoot a POS from farther away when they can do the same DPS with an Oracle fleet? Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:52:00 -
[837] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
whats with all the other concerns are they looked into is anything of this thread considered
tell us how much u think player feedback could have a impact to the actual outcome ... does it even matter what the comm want
i know its getting worse with everyone screaming at your effort and i appricate that player feedback goes just in developement
but this topic is the only one in ships i cant in any way say im ok with any other changes till now were ok (liveable) to awesome.
|

Schwarzer Regen
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:00:00 -
[838] - Quote
Now, I'm looking and I'm liking these changes for the most part. I have always enjoyed the concept of marauders but have had to watch since 2009 their slow decline from any real major use. There were, however, a couple that were still quite relevant (mainly the kronos and vargur were still kinda useful in some situations over their pirate bship counterparts). That being said, there was always one marauder that was complete crap, namely the paladin. It's bship bonuses currently are just insanely incoherent with the ship and how it should be flown.
This is one of the main reasons I am happy to see one of those useless bonuses go away (the stasis web velocity bonus which for all intent and purposes, you shouldn't be close enough to use a web if you are flying a paladin). The other rather useless bonus is the bonus to capacitor capacity. Even as the ship is right now, it only has 4 guns therefore effectively gets the 50% reduction in capacitor usage bonus and after the last major patch, the energy turrets use 20% even less capacitor which removes the largest cap drain on the paladin. It's for this reason that I'm utterly confused as to why it still gets this bonus even after you guys are going to give it a huge buff to it's capacitor. With 8k base, it is going to have like either 12k or 12.5k depending on how and when the bonuses are applied which imo is massively over capped. Not to argue with more capacitor of course, but surely with that much capacitor as base, that cap capacity bonus would be significantly more beneficial as another energy turret bonus such as tracking which would be massively more coherent with how the ship should be used imo. It would be at this point that those two crappy bship bonuses would finally be gone from the paladin and it would actually have bonuses that are coherent with how the ship should be flown. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
482
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:01:00 -
[839] - Quote
Zhaniz wrote:so if this the link between Battleships and Dreads,
it makes me think is there going to be a new T2 battleship to be the link between battleship and carriers??
hmmmm I don't necessarily think these are a link between battleships and dreadnoughts, since their roles are somewhat different. The only "link" with dreads is that they can "siege" which increases their tank. Otherwise, there's no link.
I still think there ought to be two versions of the Bastion module: one to support the huge tank/ewar immunity game play and one that still sieges but would allow better bonuses to fit into a PVE environment, such as allowing remote reps, buffing scan res, increasing webs, etc., but still being vulnerable to ewar. Besides, for anyone who'd think that this will make them overpowered if they choose to "PVE siege" in a pvp environment, they'd still be susceptible to neuts and would succumb to ewar with their miniscule sensor strength. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:01:00 -
[840] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Kenrailae wrote:The most common role, PVP wise, I can see these being used in is sieging High Sec POS's.
Add the layer to the game of NEEDING to plan for fuel, to have fuel on standby, create the opportunity for disrupting War plans by making a vulnerable spot(Read ganking fuel haulers) so peeps can't just warp from tower to tower with a couple guardians to provide cap. I don't understand this. In current planned state, Marauders will not be like actual dreads. They won't do additional damage. They'll just do it from farther away. Why would people go to all the trouble just to shoot a POS from farther away when they can do the same DPS with an Oracle fleet?
Projection.
P sure Neutrons with Null at 40k, selectable damage from the Vargur/Golem, with those optimal/fall off bonuses, will be better DPS than an Oracle, though I'll admit to not running numbers.
Also those huge tank bonuses creating a sense of security and all. My experience is that most POS sieging isn't done in relatively 'even' fights. It's done by an overwhelmingly superior force attacking a much smaller force.
Again, haven't run numbers on actual DPS figures, and the Oracles will still have advantage in mobility, but the Projection, MJD, and tank would be very hard for a small corp to argue with in High sec, from my experience.
Oh. Also EWAR immunity while Bastioned. The Law is a point of View |
|

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:03:00 -
[841] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Kenrailae wrote:The most common role, PVP wise, I can see these being used in is sieging High Sec POS's.
Add the layer to the game of NEEDING to plan for fuel, to have fuel on standby, create the opportunity for disrupting War plans by making a vulnerable spot(Read ganking fuel haulers) so peeps can't just warp from tower to tower with a couple guardians to provide cap. I don't understand this. In current planned state, Marauders will not be like actual dreads. They won't do additional damage. They'll just do it from farther away. Why would people go to all the trouble just to shoot a POS from farther away when they can do the same DPS with an Oracle fleet?
ewar immune so the enemy can't just spam jamming thingies. vs other styles of towers though yea a conventional fleet sounds better to me. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:05:00 -
[842] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: why does the golem need a damage bonus? golem is the only one that can pick its damage type at will, and does comparable dps to the other marauders as is (yay cruise missile buff) oh yea, and it has crazy range!
Some people are using marauders for something else than doing anoms in 0.0 (and even for doing anoms, pirate bs are often better). Picking damage will help u against for example loki in which way?. Crazy range?. Do u saw fleet of ravens sniping something else than npcs from distance? No? U know why? Because your target will have plenty of time to warp away before your 'yey crazy range' cruise missiles will get near him. No one uses Cruise missiles in pvp, while 1400mm's, Rails and Tachs is a complete different story.
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:also the painter bonus is pretty sweet. lets you use your rigs for damage So maybe other marauders will loose their damage too, just use rigs right?. Not even talking about fact that large turrets got 400m sig radius while torps got 450m explosion radius :) |

That Seems Legit
State War Academy Caldari State
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:06:00 -
[843] - Quote
So yeah. That tractor range bonus is completely useless. Either increase it by 100% (at least) or get rid of it.
There. I thought about these ships from a pve viewpoint.
From a pvp perspective all i can think of is immobile blinged out targets to gank.
I guess theyd be awesome in whs. I really cant see much use for them otherwise. Gimmicky garbage. Please, release them this way though so i can gank more mission runners with friends. Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps! |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
482
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:06:00 -
[844] - Quote
Maybe the transformative aspect is what is taking so long for the Paladin hull to be added. I wonder, though, how the Vargur and Kronos will be affected, considering they already had a new model introduced. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Jessica Danikov
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
108
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:07:00 -
[845] - Quote
Having ruminated on this all day, I think the Bastion module design is rather lazy. It's remarkably similar to Triage and Siege modules- all three make you immobile, all three grant bonus mass (part of being immobile, I guess), all three become immune to EWAR, all three have a fairly long cycle time (1 minute+) so you have to really think about when you're going to use it and whether someone is going to turn up and try and ruin your day.
It becomes very odd to then combine this with a mobility buff with the MJD bonus, unless you can MJD while in Bastion, which could be an interesting PVP skirmish mechanic, but I digress...
The more fundamental question is, what's wrong with Mauraders? What were they meant to do that they don't do any more, especially compared to the changes with battleships? Let's revisit the role text:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines."
A Bastion module really doesn't fit this mentality- a lot of what the Mauraders have is geared towards the 'versatility behind enemy lines' thing, such as a decent sized drone bay, large cargo hold, lots of highs + enough fitting to fit utility, then T2 resists, a tanking bonus and plenty of mids/lows to tank with. If I'm going on a long trip behind enemy lines, a module that immobilises me for 60 seconds doesn't sound like the best idea. The MJD, on the other hand, is great for giving a fighting chance at defeating bubbles and some extra burst mobility when threatened.
Where the Bastion module seems to be coming from is 'we have to make Mauraders PVP capable'. Thing is, they are, within certain contexts. They get fielded in tournaments all the time because they can do so well with those gang sizes. When cost is an issue, it can be tempting to go for Pirate Battleships instead because they typically perform better for what you spend (and this is where the balancing needs to occur). Weak sensor strength is the primary reason you don't see big coalitions filling the sky with them, and if that's patched with a module that makes them unable to receive remote reps, that isn't going to change- you're exchanging one fatal flaw for another. At this point, you should be rightly rethinking whether Mauraders should be pushed into a position where they can serve as ships of the line (for which the answer is 'definitely not').
I'll reiterate my initial instinct- the Bastion module could help create a new type of T2 with an interesting set of playstyles and mini-dread type functionality, although I'd like to see a little more innovation in the downsides of the module- say, +100% to sensor strength rather than immunity, -60% to speed rather than immobility, increased resists combined with reduced remote reps (no net effect, remotewise), perhaps an inability to warp/use prop mods, sig bloom to go along with the increased range, inability to turn... there's a lot of possibilities to consider. These possibilities are unfettered by a need to be an evolution/rebalance of existing ships and can let a Bastion-type ship really explore a new niche rather than trying to shoe-horn Mauraders into it.
Who doesn't want a Bastion Rokh? Makes a lot more sense than trying to twist the Raven/Golem into it. |

Veng3ance
Origin. Black Legion.
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:14:00 -
[846] - Quote
Honestly this is all pretty worthless without a damage increase from the bastion module.
They will just get blapped super fast by any sized fleet. |

B33R
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:19:00 -
[847] - Quote
this include npc ewar? |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
119
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:19:00 -
[848] - Quote
Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple:
Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs
If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die.
If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.

Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Lixia Saran
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
45
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:19:00 -
[849] - Quote
Jessica Danikov wrote: Who doesn't want a Bastion Rokh? Makes a lot more sense than trying to twist the Raven/Golem into it.
Golem with the Rokh hull? YOU HAVE MY VOTE!
seriously, the Rokh needs a faction / Tech 2 hull. Scorpions and Ravens already have their multiple versions. |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
169
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:24:00 -
[850] - Quote
B33R wrote:this include npc ewar?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus. |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:27:00 -
[851] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.
On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to. Or you could just fit a MWD or AB and burn to the next gate? Not seeing the issue here, all of these ships are going to have plenty of spare slots. You're forgetting the mass changes.
The doubling of these already high mass ships makes afterburners worthless, and MWD are not usable in 80% of missions.
Not to mention that they both require an extra midslot, which my Paladin does not have to spare.
I don't think it's being unreasonable to ask for a 50km/100km jump range selection. If it's 25k or less, I can grit my teeth and fly over. But 50km with this speed nerf/mass buff is simply going to be painful. |

Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:27:00 -
[852] - Quote
So basically ... this module is great idea ... step between subcaps and caps, but it lack offensive abilites, so its making it pretty much useless because it has very limited use in pve and even more limited use in pvp ...
Well ... why do i think that ... In PVE marauders are alredy good tanked as they are now and since their active bonuses wont be touched they will still be as effective as they are, so no need of boosting into tank in most situations ...
Solo pvp with bastion will be something like this ... once enemies will see they cant break your tank they will just fly away from you and since u cant move they will eventualy gets off your scram range and warp away ...
Fleet pvp will be even worse ... in large fight with logis u wont turn bastion on because that would make u prime target adn in small fights marauder in bastion will be only less atractive target because his extreme tank, so enemies will focus on easier kills ...
Solution for this is pretty simple ... put small offensive bonus into bastion ... like 40% damage bonus and 20% tracking bonus (explosion velocity/radius for golem) and if there will ever be tech II version of bastion it could have 50%/25% bonus ... This would make bastion atractive to use in pve because marauders will be able to finish whatever they will be flying in less time + bastion that will be mostly useless for L4 missions etc will have new atractive power to offer
Bigger damage output in solo pvp would also give marauder pilot chance to kill his enemy before he will be out of scram range so he coudl warp off and in fleet pvp it would make marauder bigger threat for enemies so they would have to break his big tank or deal with his large dps ... |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
169
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:28:00 -
[853] - Quote
That Seems Legit wrote:So yeah. That tractor range bonus is completely useless. Either increase it by 100% (at least) or get rid of it. I kinda thought so at first, too, but it gives you a choice. You can avail yourself of the MJD and projection improvements to snipe, or you can jump into the fray and do the classic shoot-and-salvage thing with the bolstered tankability. The projection still helps short-range weapons within tractor range.
Not sure what a sniper would do with the utility highs, though. |

Leta Lilitu
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:29:00 -
[854] - Quote
MATHS TIEM
every 65 seconds you get to move 100km further. therefore with these ships you can kite anything that doesn't move:
100,000/65 = 1538 m/s.
This rules out everything slower than a HAC, and even their new MWD bonus might not be enough to save them when burning straight at a giant teleporting guntron.
this should be fun....
in other news, using 2 MJDs and one cooldown timer, you can be literally anywhere within a sphere 200km in radius within 70 second's notice. pretty nifty. and of course stop during the cooldown to take in the scenery and blap all the things. You don't need a range selector on your MJD, just learn geometry and jump twice. if it's 40km away, you will get there faster with two jumps than a MWD.
Also I read some bitter guy somewhere around page 7 that was really pissed at you for not giving Marauders T2 resists and making them basically better than T1 BS in every way, shoving them into obsolescence. I just wanted to pat you on the back, CCP, and say I understand. you poor thing.
In other news, I kinda agree with various people's views that you should either buff the tractor beam and add some kind of salvaging component, like dedicated salvage drone bay and bonuses, or scrap the whole all in one knock-em-down, scoop-em-up idea. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:30:00 -
[855] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:How about mirroring the bonus to local reppers with the effectiveness of plates and extenders? This way you can choose between massive active or buffer tank. I think this would help for large fleets as it gives enough buffer maybe to coast out of cycle before reps land.
Ok this... this here is a good idea. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:31:00 -
[856] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple: Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die. If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.  A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1865
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:34:00 -
[857] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.
I dunno why you're complaining, just use some belt rat ISK to get yourself some highsec missioner alts. The rest of your alliance already have.  Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:36:00 -
[858] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple: Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die. If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.  A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web.
you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:36:00 -
[859] - Quote
i still dont like the idea off immobile subcaps.
and plz make the timer of sige mode and time to get MJD useable again equal else youd have to stac about 13 seconds without your bonus (of which 3 are fixed to after deactivation and 10 are moveable before the activation) which could be potentially catastrophic. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1529
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:37:00 -
[860] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:ur math is somewhat wrong
No it isn't. Or rather, if it is -- at any point -- please cite that directly and I'll correct it.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:u are failing to realize that missiles are not turrets and they need time to hit the target.
Which is probably why I used terms like "flight time" and gave velocities as a variable. That makes sense.
Yes, of course missiles take time to hit a target. I said nothing to the contrary. I also said nothing to affirm the point because that time has relatively little effect on range, which was, last I checked, the topic at hand.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:If your missiles got 100km range with 10km/s and 10secs flight time, increasing speed by 25% will result in 12,5km/s speed * 10secs = 125km range
If your turrets got for example 100km optimal and 100km falloff, increasing both for 25% will make your optimal 100km + 25% = 125km and your fallof 100km + 25% = 125km, so u will be able to deal full damage at 125km and half damage at 250km.
Missiles cant do half damage at twice of their optimal since they dont have fallof. Your target can have 1 hp sitting at 1 meter above your missiles optimal and u wont kill him.
No, that's ridiculous. Missiles, unlike turrets, do not have an optimal range. The term "optimal range" means something very specific to turrets, just as "falloff range" does.
Missiles just have something called "range". And if you'll take the time to go back to my example I pretty clearly acknowledged that point and specifically opted not to compare missile range to optimal or falloff but rather to optimal plus falloff. Which is something you get used to doing when you actually model these things with any regularity.
So yes, while missiles have an absolute range fudged by minor factors like target motion and turrets have optimal and falloff ranges, all of those ranges mean very different things. So we have to come up with some reasonable way to compare them, and doing so at missile absolute range and turret optimal plus half falloff is simply a reasonable middle ground.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:And dont say word about tracking since turrets got tracking issues only if target is close enought while missiles got their issues no matter if target is close or far away (explosion velocity thing). U can counter tracking on turreted ship by moving at proper direction (for example away from target), but u cant counter low explosion velocity of your missiles.
I didn't. I also didn't bring up painter bonuses, the relative usefulness of webs for various weapon types, the lack of mid slot modules that directly affect missiles, or the recent Iranian elections. If you'd like to discuss any of these topics let me know but let's do so elsewhere. I specifically jumped in because you made a nonsensical comment about double range bonuses and would like to keep that central to the conversation. |
|

Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
882
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:37:00 -
[861] - Quote
Lixia Saran wrote:Jessica Danikov wrote: Who doesn't want a Bastion Rokh? Makes a lot more sense than trying to twist the Raven/Golem into it.
Golem with the Rokh hull? YOU HAVE MY VOTE! seriously, the Rokh needs a faction / Tech 2 hull. Scorpions and Ravens already have their multiple versions.
blops rokh with kaalakiota colors is what we really need :| |

Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:44:00 -
[862] - Quote
Veng3ance wrote:Honestly this is all pretty worthless without a damage increase from the bastion module.
They will just get blapped super fast by any sized fleet and the benefit of having extra range and tracking is NOT going to make it worth using.
Considering that they lost a fair portion of thier drone dps some sort of dmg boost would be nice, it does not have to be times crazy like the dreads, but a 50, or 100% dmg boost would make this worth something. The dammage projection is very nice, as is the tank, but i needs something a little extra. |

eatsbabies cienfuegos
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:45:00 -
[863] - Quote
that seems pretty awesome. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
41
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:45:00 -
[864] - Quote
Vargur becomes unbelievably ridiculous with that much powergrid.
Fit two XLASBs, two Invuln II, a DCU, and an SBA. You have a 15000 DPS tank (20k+ with crystals, even more with faction/deadspace mods) for one bastion cycle, as well as ALL your cap free to run 3 heavy neuts. Your 800mm ACs have better tracking than medium neutrons and can hit interceptors orbiting at long point range.
Just warp in, hit your bastion, tank the entire gang while you kill one or two things, when bastion expires activate MJD and neut out anything that could potentially scramble you. |

Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:48:00 -
[865] - Quote
Sekeris wrote:Veng3ance wrote:Honestly this is all pretty worthless without a damage increase from the bastion module.
They will just get blapped super fast by any sized fleet and the benefit of having extra range and tracking is NOT going to make it worth using. Considering that they lost a fair portion of thier drone dps some sort of dmg boost would be nice, it does not have to be times crazy like the dreads, but a 50, or 100% dmg boost would make this worth something. The dammage projection is very nice, as is the tank, but i needs something a little extra.
I'd be happy with even a 25-50%(someone can run numbers if they want and tell me exactly how wrong I am for the goal as stated below).
Just enough to put them at the same level or just above Pirate BS while in Bastion, but below them while out.
Choosing RR/mobility or Damage. The Law is a point of View |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:49:00 -
[866] - Quote
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.
Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.
For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.
It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
49
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:50:00 -
[867] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple: Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die. If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat. 
Are you suggesting that there are eve players that would prefer to go all in..... rather than kite and run?
I respect your desire to actually risk your ship in this age of risk averse pvp (I'm not refering to large fleet engagements - I'm talking about actual pvp for fun done by the little guys). I would wager all my megathrons that some day... some day soon... Fuzzy will totally abolish the evil web module that foils his kiting abilities and endangers his cherished A-hac gangs. Then he'll delete those pesky drones all together (I mean you just lose them when you run out of point range and warp away - who needs them??).
PS - still waiting for an answer on the ability to collapse wh with a single BS |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:50:00 -
[868] - Quote
i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.
this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.
But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.
|

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:51:00 -
[869] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote: why does the golem need a damage bonus? golem is the only one that can pick its damage type at will, and does comparable dps to the other marauders as is (yay cruise missile buff) oh yea, and it has crazy range!
Some people are using marauders for something else than doing anoms in 0.0 (and even for doing anoms, pirate bs are often better). Picking damage will help u against for example loki in which way?. Do u think that people are flying without hardeners?. Crazy range? Do u saw fleet of ravens with cruise missiles shooting anything from distance in last few uears? No? U know why? Because your target will have plenty of time to warp away before your 'yey crazy range' cruise missiles will get near him. No one uses Cruise missiles in pvp, while 1400mm's, Rails and Tachs is a complete different story. Chainsaw Plankton wrote:also the painter bonus is pretty sweet. lets you use your rigs for damage So maybe other marauders will loose their damage too, just use rigs right?. Not even talking about fact that large turrets got 400m sig radius while torps got 450m explosion radius :)
60% painters help everyone hit them better. and even with hardeners most setups will have a lowest resist. there is usually a nice difference between eft (average) ehp and in game (worst case) ehp. and if you are going to bring torps, well that just makes me want good painters even more.
and complain about not getting a flight time bonus, and then complain people will warp out because flight time is too long... great and if the 8-10 sec it takes for a cruise missile to go 100km is too long, and with guns you would have gotten a kill, well you should probably bring some tackle next time. if you aren't getting kills taking potshots at people well that is your problem, not a game design problem.
missile and gun damage use sig radius differently, a straight comparison is useless You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
484
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:52:00 -
[870] - Quote
Would it be possible to change the tractor beam bonus for something more interesting? Maybe salvage drone bonus speed and effectiveness?
Also, could the sensor strength be improved a bit? Say, to normal levels? Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
|

Scarlet Thellere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:53:00 -
[871] - Quote
Some dps bonus in bastion should be in place. Yea, you will be able to tank small gank, but they will be free to just move away from you while you are locked in place for 1min AND you can't get reps, or they can just suck your cap dry and 50% of Marauders will stop shooting and repping leaving only Vargur and golem really viable for pvp. Just not worth it in pvp. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:55:00 -
[872] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.
this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.
But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.
I believe that is why god created light drones. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
962
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:56:00 -
[873] - Quote
I really like the changes but i have a game mechanics question?
Why is the mass being increased on the marauders? I'm guessing that increasing the mass has a direct impact on the agility and acceleration of the ship...
As a wormholer, battle ship mass is already too restrictive and so increasing it means a lot of people (especially in low class WHs) won't be able to use these new ships.
@ CCP, if you can adjust the agility/velocity/acceleration without increasing the mass, please do that because it would be nice to fly something other that T3 in W-space Putting work in since 2010. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:58:00 -
[874] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple: Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die. If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.  A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web. you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already I believe this is why god created Large Neuts.
Also, whats not for PVP? MJD's?
Please find me the quote that says you're not supposed to use them for PVP.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
77
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:59:00 -
[875] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.
Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.
For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.
It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative.
mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it.
for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:00:00 -
[876] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.
this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.
But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.
i agree so much with everything this guy just said |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:01:00 -
[877] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.
this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.
But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.
I believe that is why god created light drones.
all 5 of those light drones.....and if 1 or 2 die well.... haha ...ha....ha |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
77
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:03:00 -
[878] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple: Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die. If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.  A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web. you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already I believe this is why god created Large Neuts.
there's a module called nosferatu, which is also buffed in odyssey. With scram requiring about 1Gj/s your neut can run all the time, because my nos will give me enough cap to perma scram you |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:03:00 -
[879] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.
Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.
For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.
It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative. mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it. for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once
I think you'll be hard pressed to find support for your theory that MJD's are only good for PVE. 
Even so, you do realize that if your "short range boat" does need to MJD out even the shortest ranged weapon will have around a 60km range (more if you set up for additional range).
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
81
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:06:00 -
[880] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. I like this quick feedback thing. More please! swap tractor for something awesome
TARGET BREAKER!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  |
|

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
210
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:08:00 -
[881] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it. I know you're used to Rat frigates that travel at 300 m/s, but you do realize that in PvP a frigate can close the MJD gap in a matter of seconds, right? Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:08:00 -
[882] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple: Kronos=Duvolle Duvolle=Blasters Blasters=webs If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die. If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.  A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web. you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already I believe this is why god created Large Neuts. there's a module called nosferatu, which is also buffed in odyssey. With scram requiring about 1Gj/s your neut can run all the time, because my nos will give me enough cap to perma scram you Preaching to the choir son, but there are ways around that... particularly since you have multiple utility high slots to work with.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
210
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:09:00 -
[883] - Quote
The Kid thought he might transform himself into somethin' a bit more.... formidable. Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
78
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:10:00 -
[884] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.
Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.
For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.
It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative. mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it. for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once I think you'll be hard pressed to find support for your theory that MJD's are only good for PVE.  Even so, you do realize that if your "short range boat" does need to MJD out even the shortest ranged weapon will have around a 60km range (more if you set up for additional range).
sorry, but blasters with VOID have 7+6k range, if i'll start shooting with NULL, it's 12.6+16.8 and does only about 1k dps with 3 fed magstabs. why would i fly a 1b ship that gain 25% of that range when i can just field 10x cheaper domi that actually has buffer and does 80% of that damage and ALSO can mjd away? hell i could even use an active tanked hyperion because it MOVES |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4558
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:12:00 -
[885] - Quote
/facepalm To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:17:00 -
[886] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Lixia Saran wrote:Jessica Danikov wrote: Who doesn't want a Bastion Rokh? Makes a lot more sense than trying to twist the Raven/Golem into it.
Golem with the Rokh hull? YOU HAVE MY VOTE! seriously, the Rokh needs a faction / Tech 2 hull. Scorpions and Ravens already have their multiple versions. blops rokh with kaalakiota colors is what we really need :| Transforming Abaddon hull Paladin...
It would take a bit getting used to. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
78
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:17:00 -
[887] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it. I know you're used to Rat frigates that travel at 300 m/s, but you do realize that in PvP a frigate can close the MJD gap in a matter of seconds, right?
read first few words, |

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
819
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:19:00 -
[888] - Quote
not good for PvE?
Are you ******* kidding me?
This is awesome. Had no reason to get into a Vargur, Ever. Now I does.
Thank you CCP, from the bottom of my isogen drained bittervet heart. Eve is Real |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:20:00 -
[889] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Sekeris wrote:Veng3ance wrote:Honestly this is all pretty worthless without a damage increase from the bastion module.
They will just get blapped super fast by any sized fleet and the benefit of having extra range and tracking is NOT going to make it worth using. Considering that they lost a fair portion of thier drone dps some sort of dmg boost would be nice, it does not have to be times crazy like the dreads, but a 50, or 100% dmg boost would make this worth something. The dammage projection is very nice, as is the tank, but i needs something a little extra. I'd be happy with even a 25-50%(someone can run numbers if they want and tell me exactly how wrong I am for the goal as stated below). Just enough to put them at the same level or just above Pirate BS while in Bastion, but below them while out. Choosing RR/mobility or Damage. Again, I don't think a damage boost is warranted here. I'd be happy with a 25% Tracking/Explosion bonus. Same DPS, but more of it is applied. Fits the stated role rather well, I think.
|

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
364
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:23:00 -
[890] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
I'd prefer a new skill over a carebear industry skill tbh. |
|

Henry Montclaire
Sirius Cybernetics Corperation And Co-operative Dalek Asylum
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:23:00 -
[891] - Quote
This looks really interesting. I think I'll start training towards a Marauder now! |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2646
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:24:00 -
[892] - Quote
The next invasion of Delve is gonna sound like this. |

Bacchanalian
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
226
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:25:00 -
[893] - Quote
These look gimmicky, and don't appear to add much inherent value to a fleet comp that no one would currently engage anyway. Besides with blap dreads, which this fleet would provide a field day for. Kill three of em and you've won the isk war even if you lose a dread. And to kill three of them you simply have to cycle your guns three times (maybe 6 if they're buffered). |

Lipbite
Express Hauler
774
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:26:00 -
[894] - Quote
Notice how two most "liked" comments in this thread are (approximately) "worst idea ever".
Please, add script for damage boost instead of standard tracking / range - so bastion module won't be useless in incursions (structures shooting).
And replace new skill with standard tactical weapon reconfiguration (to make transition from BS to dreads easier).
Also local repair bonus does not scale during fleet encounters. Could be great to replace all local repair bonuses with "received healing" bonus (for command ships too). |

Jaz Antollare
Deadly Loneliness
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:29:00 -
[895] - Quote
Give marauders some sensor strength, +5 maybe. and increase the tractor bonus! Other than that it looks really great!
Btw the safety control must be in yellow or in red? (I think the yellow would be just fine) |

Admiral EnderWiggin
Battlestars Ex Cinere Scriptor
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:29:00 -
[896] - Quote
I wouldn't risk a marauder in incursion with the way bastion is designed now. Unless I could easily solo tank. Which would be kinda OP. Please review the concept. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
81
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:30:00 -
[897] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. I'd prefer a new skill over a carebear industry skill tbh.
Multitasking at 5 would be nice. |

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:33:00 -
[898] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Joining the call for the Bastion Module to use Tactical Weapons Reconfig, like Siege Modules. I'm sure that your coders are capable of dealing with the small aspect of the fuel reduction on the skill not messing things up easily in the next four months. It creates a good flow through for ships which have similar functions. Much like Covert Ops have the same sub skills needed for function as recons do. And EAF need to train the same EWar skills. They don't suddenly change EWar skills simply because you have gone up a ship size.
Also the low base sensor strength still needs a look at. EWar immunity is all fine & dandy when deployed, but they should have at least T1 BS strength on their sensors to allow for any kind of mobility. Otherwise the MJD bonus part is utterly useless since any time not deployed you can't do anything.
To be honest, "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" should be renamed to "Siege Operations" ... Or something like that.
An /actual" Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration that allowed you to, oh say ... "Tactically reconfigure your weapons" would be awesome.
Perhaps something that affected ammo reload times and crystal damage, or going as far as to let you reconfigure your current weapons to enter a different mode, (perhaps high power modules that allow you to temporarily add more range/tracking at the expense of heat damage, or something.)
There are a lot of Misnomers in Eve.
I don't want to perpetuate the problem by having "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" apply to something that is actually "Tactical Hull Reconfiguration." or "Siege Operations". |

luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:40:00 -
[899] - Quote
A reduction in the effectiveness of energy neutralizers would be another useful bonus. Would make it so these things could run level 5s or certain complexes without getting drained to 0 instantly. |

Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
243
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:42:00 -
[900] - Quote
Props for going the tough road.
It'll be a nightmare to balance (I won't comment on the details, I am not qualified.), so this surely looks like the first class to have a look at again Winter 1.1 and thereafter...
I DO like the idea, especially the bridge between sup-cap and capital operations |
|

Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
231
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:45:00 -
[901] - Quote
These changes make very little sense.
The inability to receive remote reps while sieged means that these ships will see no use in large fleets. That hardly seems necessary on a ship that's already bonused towards active tanking with only a moderate 30% resist bonus applying towards remote reps.
Further, because this module anchors the Marauder in place for its duration, it's going to be incredibly risky (meaning not cost-effective) to use one of these in nullsec or lowsec PvE.
These Marauders seem to provide yet another reason for everyone to move their money-making characters to highsec. Is that really what we want? |

Hikaru Kuroda
Shimai of New Eden
98
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:46:00 -
[902] - Quote
I don't really know what to think.
Seems a bit radical change for me... Let's see how they perform on test server. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
79
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:46:00 -
[903] - Quote
Please remember that instead of Siege module it has more to do with Triage module, Siege increases dps (drastically), It improves tank, but there isn't much problem in tanking with marauders anyway, and in pvp iyou'll be a sitting duck that needs to be alphaed with tornados. Bastion doesn't, it only slightly increases range. but with less drones you will do less dps than with old marauder, and you'll lose web bonus which reduces your dps at short range. |

unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
46
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:47:00 -
[904] - Quote
Can you still jump a wormhole while in bastion mode? |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
81
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:52:00 -
[905] - Quote
Gorn Arming wrote:These changes make very little sense.
The inability to receive remote reps while sieged means that these ships will see no use in large fleets. That hardly seems necessary on a ship that's already bonused towards active tanking with only a moderate 30% resist bonus applying towards remote reps.
Further, because this module anchors the Marauder in place for its duration, it's going to be incredibly risky (meaning not cost-effective) to use one of these in nullsec or lowsec PvE.
These Marauders seem to provide yet another reason for everyone to move their money-making characters to highsec. Is that really what we want?
I dunno if your view isnt to fleet fight centered? The changes arent meant to be for big fleet fights its still a Highend PvE Ship and they clearly stated this in the OP.
Its a welcome change after 6 years of ignoring Marauders because Pirate Ships where simply better...
|

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5922
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:54:00 -
[906] - Quote
Cant respond to this thread now...all blood rushing to pants area.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Auferre
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:57:00 -
[907] - Quote
Crazy idea. Completely nuts. 
I'm going to need a macro that plays the Transformers theme song when I activate bastion mode. |

Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
231
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:02:00 -
[908] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Gorn Arming wrote:These changes make very little sense.
The inability to receive remote reps while sieged means that these ships will see no use in large fleets. That hardly seems necessary on a ship that's already bonused towards active tanking with only a moderate 30% resist bonus applying towards remote reps.
Further, because this module anchors the Marauder in place for its duration, it's going to be incredibly risky (meaning not cost-effective) to use one of these in nullsec or lowsec PvE.
These Marauders seem to provide yet another reason for everyone to move their money-making characters to highsec. Is that really what we want? I dunno if your view isnt to fleet fight centered? The changes arent meant to be for big fleet fights its still a Highend PvE Ship and they clearly stated this in the OP. Its a welcome change after 6 years of ignoring Marauders because Pirate Ships where simply better... Fine--we'll rule them out of fleets entirely.
Why give a "high-end PvE ship" a module that will only be used in highsec PvE? Sieging your battleship in a nullsec anom will get you killed sooner or later (my bet's on sooner); doing it in highsec is nearly risk-free.
The addition of tackling rats to forsaken hubs in the last update was enough to make most Goons back off from Vindicators for nullsec PvE, and the amount of time you spend while tackled by rats in a Vindicator is far less than the amount you'll spend tackling yourself if you fire up one of these Marauder siege modules. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
79
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:05:00 -
[909] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Gorn Arming wrote:These changes make very little sense.
The inability to receive remote reps while sieged means that these ships will see no use in large fleets. That hardly seems necessary on a ship that's already bonused towards active tanking with only a moderate 30% resist bonus applying towards remote reps.
Further, because this module anchors the Marauder in place for its duration, it's going to be incredibly risky (meaning not cost-effective) to use one of these in nullsec or lowsec PvE.
These Marauders seem to provide yet another reason for everyone to move their money-making characters to highsec. Is that really what we want? I dunno if your view isnt to fleet fight centered? The changes arent meant to be for big fleet fights its still a Highend PvE Ship and they clearly stated this in the OP. Its a welcome change after 6 years of ignoring Marauders because Pirate Ships where simply better...
with marauders speed and drone (slight dps) nerf and removal of web strength bonus pirate battleships will still be better |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:06:00 -
[910] - Quote
Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),
For PvE those will a beast ships:
1) long range as needed. 2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin). 3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine. 4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter. 5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracing disruption). 6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.
However for PvP:
1) no buffer 2) no dps advantage 3) immobile 4) asking for tornado alpha strike 5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang 6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention 7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps) 8) no real advantage over anything currently in use 9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.
So PvE you did a great job, PvP those ships are still useless. They are too expensive and too fragile to be used. They are still worse than Pirate BS and u know what? I donGÇÖt see Pirate BS used for PvP (ok was killed once by small gang with Mach, but those guys were running a sick combo :) ). Their main downside (both Pirate and Marauders) is that for their massive price tag they have lower survivability that Command Ships and T3, and often don't have much higher dps (paper dps while its application is much worse that on commands and T3). They can have much HP but they suck with resists. So:
1) redesign marauders (unlikely and I love your changes for PvE) 2) fix Pirate BS (more likely) 3) Introduce new type of BS with T2 resists, T2 damage so its massive price would be justified by its advantages over commands and t3.
|
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4560
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:06:00 -
[911] - Quote
Gorn Arming wrote:These changes make very little sense.
The inability to receive remote reps while sieged means that these ships will see no use in large fleets. That hardly seems necessary on a ship that's already bonused towards active tanking with only a moderate 30% resist bonus applying towards remote reps.
Further, because this module anchors the Marauder in place for its duration, it's going to be incredibly risky (meaning not cost-effective) to use one of these in nullsec or lowsec PvE.
These Marauders seem to provide yet another reason for everyone to move their money-making characters to highsec. Is that really what we want? Well, they've already designed it to not be an optimal ship for large fleet actions, so that really isn't what they have in mind for it.
PVE activites and small/medium gang activities appear to be it's cup of tea. I think we'll see them used in Null sec for PVE purposes in well secured/scouted area's, but I doubt they will see much (long term) use in Low sec.
It wouldn't surprise me to see small groups of them on gate camp duty in Null, where you'll have a pretty accurate idea if those folks coming through the gate are strong enough to over run your bastion deployed ships, but low sec camps usually don't have that precise of intel at their disposal. Of course, it would have to be a force with a sizable advantage in numbers to make much headway against a group of properly deployed Marauders that can cover each other. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:06:00 -
[912] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),
For PvE those will a be great ships:
1) long range as needed. 2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin). 3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine. 4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter. 5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracing disruption). 6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.
However for PvP:
1) no buffer 2) no dps advantage 3) immobile 4) asking for tornado alpha strike 5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang 6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention 7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps) 8) no real advantage over anything currently in use 9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.
So PvE you did a great job, PvP those ships are still useless. They are too expensive and too fragile to be used. They are still worse than Pirate BS and u know what? I donGÇÖt see Pirate BS used for PvP (ok was killed once by small gang with Mach, but those guys were running a sick combo :) ). Their main downside (both Pirate and Marauders) is that for their massive price tag they have lower survivability that Command Ships and T3, and often don't have much higher dps (paper dps while its application is much worse that on commands and T3). They can have much HP but they suck with resists. So:
1) redesign marauders (unlikely and I love your changes for PvE) 2) fix Pirate BS (more likely) 3) Introduce new type of BS with T2 resists, T2 damage so its massive price would be justified by its advantages over commands and t3.
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:07:00 -
[913] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),
For PvE those will a be great ships:
1) long range as needed. 2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin). 3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine. 4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter. 5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracking disruption). 6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.
However for PvP:
1) no buffer 2) no dps advantage 3) immobile 4) asking for tornado alpha strike 5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang 6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention 7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps) 8) no real advantage over anything currently in use 9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.
So PvE you did a great job, PvP those ships are still useless. They are too expensive and too fragile to be used. They are still worse than Pirate BS and u know what? I donGÇÖt see Pirate BS used for PvP (ok was killed once by small gang with Mach, but those guys were running a sick combo :) ). Their main downside (both Pirate and Marauders) is that for their massive price tag they have lower survivability that Command Ships and T3, and often don't have much higher dps (paper dps while its application is much worse that on commands and T3). They can have much HP but they suck with resists. So:
1) redesign marauders (unlikely and I love your changes for PvE) 2) fix Pirate BS (more likely) 3) Introduce new type of BS with T2 resists, T2 damage so its massive price would be justified by its advantages over commands and t3.
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:07:00 -
[914] - Quote
Gorn Arming wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:Gorn Arming wrote:These changes make very little sense.
The inability to receive remote reps while sieged means that these ships will see no use in large fleets. That hardly seems necessary on a ship that's already bonused towards active tanking with only a moderate 30% resist bonus applying towards remote reps.
Further, because this module anchors the Marauder in place for its duration, it's going to be incredibly risky (meaning not cost-effective) to use one of these in nullsec or lowsec PvE.
These Marauders seem to provide yet another reason for everyone to move their money-making characters to highsec. Is that really what we want? I dunno if your view isnt to fleet fight centered? The changes arent meant to be for big fleet fights its still a Highend PvE Ship and they clearly stated this in the OP. Its a welcome change after 6 years of ignoring Marauders because Pirate Ships where simply better... Fine--we'll rule them out of fleets entirely. Why give a "high-end PvE ship" a module that will only be used in highsec PvE? Sieging your battleship in a nullsec anom will get you killed sooner or later (my bet's on sooner); doing it in highsec is nearly risk-free. The addition of tackling rats to forsaken hubs in the last update was enough to make most Goons back off from Vindicators for nullsec PvE, and the amount of time you spend while tackled by rats in a Vindicator is far less than the amount you'll spend tackling yourself if you fire up one of these Marauder siege modules.
Your right, but there are few people (like me) who dont fly solo lvl 5 or class 5/6 Wormholes or Incursions... maybe i am to spoiled from other MMOs but i am really interested to see our Corp flying some PvE Stuff together and have fun.
Sure, you Goons will still screw us, solo or not but i dont have problems with that. 
|

Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
178
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:10:00 -
[915] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once
Are you suggesting that a single bastioned Marauder is NOT an effective counter against 50 sentry Domis? Madness, I say!
 |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4560
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:13:00 -
[916] - Quote
Markku Laaksonen wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once Are you suggesting that a single bastioned Marauder is NOT an effective counter against 50 sentry Domis? Madness, I say!  Everyone knows that unless a ship can do that it's worthless, pffft.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:22:00 -
[917] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Markku Laaksonen wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once Are you suggesting that a single bastioned Marauder is NOT an effective counter against 50 sentry Domis? Madness, I say!  Everyone knows that unless a ship can do that it's worthless, pffft. 
maybe read what it was response to someone? Yes it was, to your post suggesting that you'll be able to withstand alpha strike of domis https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3551763#post3551763 |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4560
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:25:00 -
[918] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Markku Laaksonen wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once Are you suggesting that a single bastioned Marauder is NOT an effective counter against 50 sentry Domis? Madness, I say!  Everyone knows that unless a ship can do that it's worthless, pffft.  maybe read what it was response to someone? Yes it was, to your post suggesting that you'll be able to withstand alpha strike of domis https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3551763#post3551763 It's called sarcasm, which is admittedly sometimes difficult to recognize on the internet. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
439
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:36:00 -
[919] - Quote
please make the golem like the phoenix we need more space bunkers I Endorse this Product and/or Service EVE Online Battle Recorder When I press F1 I get ISK |

Ellendras Silver
Honestly We didnt know
92
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:37:00 -
[920] - Quote
about bastion mode
Quote: When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
can you still go through a WH if in bastion mode? because if you cant what use is the 10x mass ?
|
|

Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
210
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:42:00 -
[921] - Quote
ps this is all cool but can we please get Odyssey 1.1 Core Skills | EVE Music | Internet Spaceship Killboard Link |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:43:00 -
[922] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: As already noted, these boys will do fine on their own in small to medium sized engagements, but have been purpose designed to not be the ship of choice for a large fleet battle.
They won't actually kill anything unless they can either alpha it or kill it before it pulls range and warps (even a non-prop mod BS can do this). Leaving the 90% web bonuses intact and adding them to the other 2 marauders might make this feasible however.
So then you have to include tackle which to be useful tackle against the kind of foes this marauder will be useful for will require some logistics to keep it (the tackle) alive. So you might as well just bring more logis and more mobile faction BS.
Or am I seeing this wrong?
|

Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:45:00 -
[923] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:ps this is all cool but can we please get Odyssey 1.1
I'm already interested in more [Winter] stuff. I had been following all the command ship and marauder proposed changes and things, but I still assumed T2 re-balancing would start with frigs and work its way up. |

Jordanna Bauer
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
43
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:48:00 -
[924] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). This is a really stupid idea. Why would using it in high sec trigger a weapons timer? Just make it so you can't dock while bastion is active. Turning safety off for PvE is extremely counterintuitive. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:52:00 -
[925] - Quote
Jordanna Bauer wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). This is a really stupid idea. Why would using it in high sec trigger a weapons timer? Just make it so you can't dock while bastion is active. Turning safety off for PvE is extremely counterintuitive.
They already revoke that. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5739
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:14:00 -
[926] - Quote
I know the stacking penalty doesn't apply to the resistance bonus on the bastion module, but what about the optimal/falloff bonuses, the repair amount bonus, and the missile velocity bonus? IMO it really should not be stacking penalized.
Also it would be amazing if there were a tracking bonus on the module as well. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2208
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:27:00 -
[927] - Quote
Good question there from James Amril-Kesh.
I'd also like to know if bastion modules are the same category as damage controls and reactive armor hardeners (for those who don't know, they stacking penalize each other), so e.g. if I have a damage control, a reactive armor hardener (not that I ever would in their current form) and a bastion module fitted, will they be stacking penalized?
All in all I have to say - interesting - I'm too confused with the changes to decide if I like them or not, but anything is better than marauders in their current form.
The Bastion module needs to give a DPS boost though. You know... morons. |

Snopzet
Inglourious Squirrels SoulWing Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:29:00 -
[928] - Quote
What about....
add 100% reduction of weapon reload time while in bastion mode?
So you can instantly switch between long range and short range, or the damage type. Amarr would lose their advantage but well, the Paladin can pull out 1350+ dps, so why not buff the others a little bit. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4560
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:39:00 -
[929] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Good question there from James Amril-Kesh.
I'd also like to know if bastion modules are the same category as damage controls and reactive armor hardeners (for those who don't know, they stacking penalize each other), so e.g. if I have a damage control, a reactive armor hardener (not that I ever would in their current form) and a bastion module fitted, will they be stacking penalized?
All in all I have to say - interesting - I'm too confused with the changes to decide if I like them or not, but anything is better than marauders in their current form. Hey, thanks for that. I didn't realize damage controls and reactive armor hardeners stacked against each other.
You know... I don't really think they are supposed to. Bug perhaps?
Regardless, none of those modules "should" penalize each other... its rather the point of having them. If the do (by design) it then it needs a re-think.
I also support a tracking bonus, it would seem a natural thing for a ship that will be stationary a lot of the time.
If these ships are supposed to be viable for large fleet fights (and I know the current thinking is that they are not, but things can change) a bonus to Target Spectrum Breakers would seem to be a logical choice considering their isolated nature.
But those modules really need to be reworked. They should not break your own lock, ever, although I can see them being effective against friendly locks (logistics) because how the hell would they know right? But in the case of Marauders that wouldn't matter, as they can't make use of logistics anyway. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:39:00 -
[930] - Quote
i think this mod should burn fuel (like nanite paste) and should have activation cycle (20-30 seconds) increasing it's dps, turrets/launchers attributes( optimals/falloff/velocity by say 25%), armor/shield repper power (again 25 or 50% or so) but also increasing ab/mwd speed increase by like 100-200%. This mod shouldn't make ship immobile |
|

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5740
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:43:00 -
[931] - Quote
I'm fairly sure the reactive armor hardener and damage controls don't stack with each other. You may just be confusing this with the way resistance bonuses work to begin with. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:47:00 -
[932] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm fairly sure the reactive armor hardener and damage controls don't stack with each other. You may just be confusing this with the way resistance bonuses work to begin with.
they stack with eachother, launch evehq and check resistances, then fit them on ships in eve, they are the same, stacking penalized |

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
4644
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:48:00 -
[933] - Quote
Currently, this seems more like a triage module than a siege module; bonus to reps, ewar immunity, and-- range. Marginal, but y'know.
Here's an idea: what about making the Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration skill a percentage strontium consumption reduction, like 10% per level? Then make this a proper mini-Siege module for Marauders, with a Strontium cost of 50 per cycle or something similarly low? If it's then paired with a damage and tracking bonus, it then becomes a nasty way to buff DPS -- but paired with, say, a sig bloom and being locked in place, makes the Marauder a giant bomber magnet. Axe the resist buff, and suddenly you do have a mini siege module, instead of a mini triage-but-it's-not-really-we-swear. It gives the unit a clear battlefield role (local domination) with a clear counter (bomber runs), requiring that you clear bombers from the field before dropping the Marauders.
As it stands, this looks like a sort of hamfisted way to buff local tanking sniper fits when snipers rarely use logi or much tank.
Further, I'm still not sure why the Marauders can't be allowed to out-DPS pirate BS. Marauders require vastly more skill training, cost more, and require actual industrial involvement, whereas pirate BS require-- lucky BPC drops and LPs? |

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2209
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:49:00 -
[934] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm fairly sure the reactive armor hardener and damage controls don't stack with each other. You may just be confusing this with the way resistance bonuses work to begin with.
Quote:If you only fit one or the other (one Damage Control or one Reactive Hardener), then they are never stacking penalized. They will always give their full damage resistance effect, along with your most effective module that also gives it's full effect as explained above, followed by any other modules that will be stacking penalized. This is one reason why the Damage Control module is so popular; because it is always 100% effective.
If, however, you fit both, then one of them (whichever is less effective) will count as a second module and be stacking penalized accordingly (so, 86.9% effective). This is in addition to your normal resistance modules, of which one will give its full effect and the rest stacking penalized as explained above.
As an example, consider the following five modules all fitted to your fit and their resulting effectiveness: one Damage Control (100% effective), and one Reactive Armor Hardener (86.9% effective); one Armor EM Hardener (100% effective), one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (EM resistance 86.9% effective, other resistances 100% effective), and one Adaptive Nano Plating (EM resistance 57.1% effective, other resistances 86.9% effective)
Source You know... morons. |

Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:51:00 -
[935] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Hey, thanks for that. I didn't realize damage controls and reactive armor hardeners stacked against each other.
You know... I don't really think they are supposed to. Bug perhaps?
no, that was a specific design goal. they specifically wanted RAHs to have a stacking penalty against DCII armor resist bonuses. why, i dunno, but they did, and as a cap pilot (i.e. the class ship they're used most on), i'm satisfied with the balance of the thing.
dont have a source right offhand, but if you check the RAH introduction thread i think it's in there. e: someone got the source above me. thanks mate.
on topic, i'd like to reiterate that i think these changes are kinda cool, but the more i think about the argument that the bastion mode being anathetical to the marauder's designation as skirmish ships. whilst most of my colleagues seem to be arguing for marauders to become MORE mobile i.e. lose the bastion immobility requirement, and then introduce a new T2 BS for bastion work, i personally think it should be opposite; marauders were always big heavy PvE boats, and if we're all being honest here, the bastion module's application is going to be heavily PvE-focused. (dat red cross menace, yknow). so i'd like to put a proposal, or support for an existing one, in for consideration.
by all means, create a third class of T2 battleship (and by all the gods, PLEASE base it off the hyperion hull for gallente <3<3<3) built for fast paced skirmish work. specifics i wont pretend to try to craft - i wouldnt trust my attempts to stay unbiased towards imbalance. however, i think that a solution akin to what i've outlined would be the most logical. perhaps a high base speed, or a "antisiege" module that increases propulsion mod speed bonuses and agility. it would have to extend bonuses to both MWD and AB, due to the simple fact that, if you leave out AB, the armor variants simply would not be used as far as i can see. however, i imagine a battleships' signature would be enough to deter large fleets of blapdread-resistant armortanking skirmish T2 BS things. |

Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
87
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:53:00 -
[936] - Quote
Izi55IzI wrote:Well i expected the marauder "rebalancing" will be stupid, but damn, this is a whole new level of dumb, while you're at it, make the remaining 4 slots into yu-gi-oh card launchers.
How hard is it to make a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght?
I especially find the harrasing angle funny, you're making a slower, less base armor/shield, less dps, than pirate/faction battleship into a "harrasing" bs, just because you should fit a MJD. You do realize that people actually fit scramblers? And how exactly does that add to the fitting options? Looks like MJD and Cap booster are going to be mandatory along with the bastion module.
Anyway stop using alcohol or drugs while changing the game, worse, if you're sober while doing it, fire the people behind those ideas.
You already ****** up the marauders once, don't do it again.
I know your just going to ignore everything I just wrote, since you have an infinite number of fanboys wanting transformation effects, but can I at least get my skillpoints back from the marauders V skill?
Why would you say something so stupid?
Granted I don't use Marauders, but wtf are you thinking? This is probably the most interesting change they could have made.
These ships will be able to unleash insane firepower in fleet / small gang situations, after jumping 100km away. How ******* awesome is that?
intead of your stupidity...
"YA I JUST WANT T2 RESIST BS' AND ****" What a tard. |

Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:55:00 -
[937] - Quote
Gone for a day and the forum explodes holy ****
I'm going to miss the webs though, this looks all very interesting, looking forward to how they will transform.
Will comment more later |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5741
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:56:00 -
[938] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm fairly sure the reactive armor hardener and damage controls don't stack with each other. You may just be confusing this with the way resistance bonuses work to begin with. Quote:If you only fit one or the other (one Damage Control or one Reactive Hardener), then they are never stacking penalized. They will always give their full damage resistance effect, along with your most effective module that also gives it's full effect as explained above, followed by any other modules that will be stacking penalized. This is one reason why the Damage Control module is so popular; because it is always 100% effective.
If, however, you fit both, then one of them (whichever is less effective) will count as a second module and be stacking penalized accordingly (so, 86.9% effective). This is in addition to your normal resistance modules, of which one will give its full effect and the rest stacking penalized as explained above.
As an example, consider the following five modules all fitted to your fit and their resulting effectiveness: one Damage Control (100% effective), and one Reactive Armor Hardener (86.9% effective); one Armor EM Hardener (100% effective), one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (EM resistance 86.9% effective, other resistances 100% effective), and one Adaptive Nano Plating (EM resistance 57.1% effective, other resistances 86.9% effective) Source
Yeah I did the math on it (in the edit to my post), but you were right. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 21:58:00 -
[939] - Quote
Snopzet wrote:What about....
add 100% reduction of weapon reload time while in bastion mode?
So you can instantly switch between long range and short range, or the damage type.
because then one of the strengths of lasers becomes obsolete as regards this hull, which unnecessarily strips an advantage from a weapons system with quite a few disadvantages, large cap use in particular.
lasers right now are in balance only because the great strengths of lasers (scorch, good DPS/refire, great ammo versatility) pull the great weakenesses (eggregious cap usage, mediocre tracking, locked damage) out of the proverbial fire. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
86
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:07:00 -
[940] - Quote
I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then... |
|

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:11:00 -
[941] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Izi55IzI wrote:Well i expected the marauder "rebalancing" will be stupid, but damn, this is a whole new level of dumb, while you're at it, make the remaining 4 slots into yu-gi-oh card launchers.
How hard is it to make a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght?
I especially find the harrasing angle funny, you're making a slower, less base armor/shield, less dps, than pirate/faction battleship into a "harrasing" bs, just because you should fit a MJD. You do realize that people actually fit scramblers? And how exactly does that add to the fitting options? Looks like MJD and Cap booster are going to be mandatory along with the bastion module.
Anyway stop using alcohol or drugs while changing the game, worse, if you're sober while doing it, fire the people behind those ideas.
You already ****** up the marauders once, don't do it again.
I know your just going to ignore everything I just wrote, since you have an infinite number of fanboys wanting transformation effects, but can I at least get my skillpoints back from the marauders V skill?
Why would you say something so stupid? Granted I don't use Marauders, but wtf are you thinking? This is probably the most interesting change they could have made. These ships will be able to unleash insane firepower in fleet / small gang situations, after jumping 100km away. How ******* awesome is that? intead of your stupidity... "YA I JUST WANT T2 RESIST BS' AND ****" What a tard.
where do you see insane firepower? there is no bonus to DPS, and if you try to use this mod at range, you can be combat probed, and bombed or alphaed off the field because *derp* you made the mistake of activating this mod and you can't move/warp for a minute |

Amadeus3
Benito de Soto
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:18:00 -
[942] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),
For PvE those will a beast ships:
1) long range as needed. 2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin). 3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine. 4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter. 5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracing disruption). 6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.
However for PvP:
1) no buffer 2) no dps advantage 3) immobile 4) asking for tornado alpha strike 5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang 6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention 7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps) 8) no real advantage over anything currently in use 9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.
It's a long post but worth quoting IMHO. I can see how the proposed marauders will rule in PVE but I can't see them being used in PVP (outside of a few niche applications). |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5741
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:20:00 -
[943] - Quote
What small gang situation are you talking about that sees battleships alpha'd off the field?
And yes, it is insane firepower because you can get away with fitting less tank mods on the armor ships. Either that or you could just go with insane tank. Not to mention the firepower is also higher due to the massively increased damage projection. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:22:00 -
[944] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then...
well the problem is in eve it usually boils down to dps, you want dps for what you are putting into it... isk.... sp... etc. But this ship requires a lot of investment in both isk and sp, and right now, its bonuses dont offer anything we cant do cheaper or lower sp right now.
a great imobile tank isnt very useful, and thats really all this ship is. Its got range, sure, but we already have good ships for that which are cheaper on isk/sp and Those ships arent imobile. You can say the same thing for ships with insane tanks.
The new marauder just doesnt give anything we dont already have.... it *might* be useful.... if there was a kind of mission or something you Need absurd tank for, maybe....but those situations usually are in low/null/wh and then you are dead. Anyone with a fast tackle.... warp scrambler.... and your high sp gankbait is gone. |

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2210
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:22:00 -
[945] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:The DC2 increases armor resist by 15% (or in other words "removes" 15% of the damage that the ship still takes).
Thanks for explaining that, but as a matter of fact I used to make my own excel spreadsheets to calculate stuff like that before EFT was around.
Now all we need is a dev to answer our questions :). You know... morons. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:24:00 -
[946] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:What small gang situation are you talking about that sees battleships alpha'd off the field?
And yes, it is insane firepower because you can get away with fitting less tank mods on the armor ships. Either that or you could just go with insane tank. Not to mention the firepower is also higher due to the massively increased damage projection.
the damage is only higher if you are firing at a range that your guns dont currently hit at - so if you are either moving towards or webbing your target then you dont need to hit far and these ships dont do any extra damage, no benifit.
Less tank mods? Meaning that when not in bastion mode, really weak tank? Sounds like a great idea.
Insane tank? hmm....imobile gankbait slowly waiting its death.... |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
86
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:26:00 -
[947] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then... well the problem is in eve it usually boils down to dps, you want dps for what you are putting into it... isk.... sp... etc. But this ship requires a lot of investment in both isk and sp, and right now, its bonuses dont offer anything we cant do cheaper or lower sp right now. a great imobile tank isnt very useful, and thats really all this ship is. Its got range, sure, but we already have good ships for that which are cheaper on isk/sp and Those ships arent imobile. You can say the same thing for ships with insane tanks. The new marauder just doesnt give anything we dont already have.... it *might* be useful.... if there was a kind of mission or something you Need absurd tank for, maybe....but those situations usually are in low/null/wh and then you are dead. Anyone with a fast tackle.... warp scrambler.... and your high sp gankbait is gone.
Your right, but i am just worried about the actual situation where the DPS and Manpower just achieve some ridiculous amount, its just a risky combination.
My post was more a reflection about the Community and their wishes. |

Draco Zhuangli
Black Thorne Corporation The Cursed Few
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:30:00 -
[948] - Quote
This is an interesting idea, however I want to point out one major flaw in the "objectives" of this change. Plain and simple this is all about "harassing tactics." I can imagine a gang of Marauders who are well coordinated and jump all around target(s) with the MJD's. Once they determine the speed of their target they will be able to calculate how much distance they need between them before they jump. Could be kinda fun.
But...the little part mentioned about stepping stones to a capital ship, dont appear to be valid.
Quote:This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation.
I bring this up because I looked at the training time difference between a Marauder and a Dreadnought. Due mostly to the training required to get to T2 weapons for the Maurader, in the case of this example a Vargur, the training time is almost double that of the Dreadnought. Capital weapons dont have T2 versions as far as I know, and I expect that some day the "tiercide" will involve weapons too (??) But until then, all the specialists skills needed from small, to medium to large to operate the T2 weapons is far longer than getting into a Capital ship. You could fly a Vargur with T1 weapons but thats a bit useless isn't it?
In my opinion, a stepping stone is a point in the middle, where upon reached allows you to continue on to the far side. If I were an INDIVIDUAL planning a training que for Capitals, I would go straight for the Capital. No reason at all to include the Marauder. It is not a stepping stone.
This change does not do much for the individual and is designed more for the big fleet fights, alliance tournaments, etc.
So please take out the part about being a stepping stone, unless you address the weapon training lengths.
|

Lee Church
FridgeOre Mining Group The Butterfly Effect Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:30:00 -
[949] - Quote
Does the Bastion mode have a cooldown after each 60 second cycle? or will it continue onto the next cycle like an armor repairer would unless it was deactivated mid cycle? |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:31:00 -
[950] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then... well the problem is in eve it usually boils down to dps, you want dps for what you are putting into it... isk.... sp... etc. But this ship requires a lot of investment in both isk and sp, and right now, its bonuses dont offer anything we cant do cheaper or lower sp right now. a great imobile tank isnt very useful, and thats really all this ship is. Its got range, sure, but we already have good ships for that which are cheaper on isk/sp and Those ships arent imobile. You can say the same thing for ships with insane tanks. The new marauder just doesnt give anything we dont already have.... it *might* be useful.... if there was a kind of mission or something you Need absurd tank for, maybe....but those situations usually are in low/null/wh and then you are dead. Anyone with a fast tackle.... warp scrambler.... and your high sp gankbait is gone. Your right, but i am just worried about the actual situation where the DPS and Manpower just achieve some ridiculous amount, its an risky combination. My post was more a reflection about the Community and their wishes.
i know what you mean, but if there was ever a situation where it was warranted i would say it is this. it needs to be really good at SOMETHING for all that you put into it. Right now it has a hodgepodge of different... "interesting" bonuses.....
if its not going to have insane dps at least make its tank such that it cant be alpha'ed due to low buffer.... something....it just feels kind of half-assed. |
|

GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:31:00 -
[951] - Quote
Greetings CCP.
While it seems you're willing to change the mauraders I do not believe you're willing to buff them enough to be useful for the cost or skill requirements that they have for any purpose other than highsec mission running.
I've got a shiny kronos that once in a while (years now) i'll hop in and go run L4s blitzing away.
It's setup with an omnitank, 425s. and Afterburner and primarily does sniper kiting tactics, It's a fun setup and is very survivable.
The baston module to me has little or no appeal for this setup, it already has plenty of range and tank and its own movement helps maintain tracking. the MJD bonus could be handy, but i really dont see myself fitting one over the afterburner, which would take away a cap recharger or a tracking computer.
So my *wishlist* for my long unused shiny ship of olde would be
1) don't nerf the speed on the hull 2) give them some better base cap regen 3) don't nerf my drone bay 4) give them proper sensor strengths 5) you're adding a high slot for the bastion module, an argument could be made that a midslot should be added for the MJD as this seems to be a staple for how it is intended to operate.
The bastion module..... I'm really not digging this thing, its only purpose is mission running, if you were to pvp with it its like a dreadnaught with 1/12 the ehp, 1/10th the damage, 1/4 the tank for 1/2 the price, its going to get splattered by any formidable crew of subcaps.
1) remove the weapons timer - this things already going to have issues in pvp, this is insult to injury. 2) add some kind of a damage bonus, i'd like to see maybe 1200-1300 dps from 425s on a kronos when using this module, prolly about 2k dps when using blasters, too lazy to do the math for the percentages, at least im not asking for crazyness like 3-4k like others. 3) add some kind of energy neut protection, this thing pretty much has every form of defense covered except that, add a base 25% reflect when the bastion module is activated maybe? I mean this is basically a 2 trick pony if you're going to sit still with your 1bil base hull cost shiny thing using the godmode defensive module of the century it should at least have all the obvious vulnerabilities plugged. |

Dalphon Haman
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:36:00 -
[952] - Quote
I keep seeing people saying the tractor beam bonus is obsolete. It's only obsolete because the bonuses are better on the Noctis. If My Kronos had the same tractors as the Noctis, I would use it much more, even if I only had 2 vs 4. Having 2 tractors and a salvager are great, especially when running the Epic Arcs jumping all over the place. Ain't nobody got time to be moving 2 ships around like that. |

Snopzet
Inglourious Squirrels SoulWing Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:36:00 -
[953] - Quote
Retmas wrote:Snopzet wrote:What about....
add 100% reduction of weapon reload time while in bastion mode?
So you can instantly switch between long range and short range, or the damage type. because then one of the strengths of lasers becomes obsolete as regards this hull, which unnecessarily strips an advantage from a weapons system with quite a few disadvantages, large cap use in particular. lasers right now are in balance only because the great strengths of lasers (scorch, good DPS/refire, great ammo versatility) pull the great weakenesses (eggregious cap usage, mediocre tracking, locked damage) out of the proverbial fire.
I thought about that at first, too. But if you compare the dps between the golem, paladin and vargur at 65km vs a cruiser, the paladin is king. The golem has hard times to even reach that distance (javelin + 2 t2 rigs do the trick) but this means you have to sacrifice rigor rigs and 2 target painters won't help much against cruisers at this distance. Additionally, the paladin can use tons of different ammunition to get the best dps AND it has tracking computers (up to three) to optimize tracking or optimal. The golem can switch between three distances and if you want the best dps your max range is 45km. The vargur uses mostly tracking enhancers and shots in falloff. So I'm not that sure, if it is that bad. Yes, it is a "nerf" for the paladin (boost for the others), but one which doesn't hurt too much. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:43:00 -
[954] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Less tank mods? Meaning that when not in bastion mode, really weak tank? Sounds like a great idea. Which is balanced by the fact that you can microjump immediately after leaving bastion mode, assuming you're not scrammed in the 9 to 11.4 seconds between leaving bastion, starting the MJD cycle, and microjumping. Of course this depends entirely on how it works. Maybe if you time it right you could even activate the MJD near the end of bastion mode, leave bastion mode, and microjump immediately without the spool up time, giving people very little time to scram you. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
51
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:45:00 -
[955] - Quote
I like EVERYTHING about this- we'll literally get TRANSFORMERS for SHIPS. Like mini-UNICRON. The only thing I don't understand is the fact that, to activate the bastion mod, you have to deactivate security; I really just don't see any real purpose o this, and it's kind of arbitrary.
Regardless, I'll be happy to fly a giant Autobot this winter!  "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:45:00 -
[956] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:I like EVERYTHING about this- we'll literally get TRANSFORMERS for SHIPS. Like mini-UNICRON. The only thing I don't understand is the fact that, to activate the bastion mod, you have to deactivate security; I really just don't see any real purpose o this, and it's kind of arbitrary. Regardless, I'll be happy to fly a giant Autobot this winter!  You don't have to deactivate security. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:48:00 -
[957] - Quote
you know, i really love the idea they are going for.... in the "stepping stone" sort of way, i love the option for a transforming mode for a ship you can use in highsec, its like candy XD I want to use this ship, but no matter how COOL it is, it just doesnt merit use VS other ships....
if this is the way its going to be, i might use it in L4s for fun every few months. For sure it would be pretty safe.... but.... and im sure most of eve agrees with me here.... we dont want an indestructable L4 runner.
its tank isnt enough to solo much, and it wouldnt work well with a group especially with it just being good at tanking (unless we got aggro mechanics lol ) |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:50:00 -
[958] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Less tank mods? Meaning that when not in bastion mode, really weak tank? Sounds like a great idea. Which is balanced by the fact that you can microjump immediately after leaving bastion mode, assuming you're not scrammed in the 9 to 11.4 seconds between leaving bastion, starting the MJD cycle, and microjumping. Of course this depends entirely on how it works. Maybe if you time it right you could even activate the MJD near the end of bastion mode, leave bastion mode, and microjump immediately without the spool up time, giving people very little time to scram you.
more like the 1-80sec + 9-11.4 between when you see them coming to scramble you, and the moment you can get out of the way.
(i dont think you can start the spool till the bastion cycle is completely done, but i could be wrong. Either way, waiting for the bastion to cycle down is a big deal )
(test edit) |

John Holt
Praetorian Cohort
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:51:00 -
[959] - Quote
please keep the tractor. As a mission runner it helps me salvage as I go. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
86
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:53:00 -
[960] - Quote
For me its a Small/Medium Gang PvE Funboat! |
|

John Holt
Praetorian Cohort
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:54:00 -
[961] - Quote
GeeBee wrote:Greetings CCP.
While it seems you're willing to change the mauraders I do not believe you're willing to buff them enough to be useful for the cost or skill requirements that they have for any purpose other than highsec mission running.
I've got a shiny kronos that once in a while (years now) i'll hop in and go run L4s blitzing away.
It's setup with an omnitank, 425s. and Afterburner and primarily does sniper kiting tactics, It's a fun setup and is very survivable.
The baston module to me has little or no appeal for this setup, it already has plenty of range and tank and its own movement helps maintain tracking. the MJD bonus could be handy, but i really dont see myself fitting one over the afterburner, which would take away a cap recharger or a tracking computer.
So my *wishlist* for my long unused shiny ship of olde would be
1) don't nerf the speed on the hull 2) give them some better base cap regen 3) don't nerf my drone bay 4) give them proper sensor strengths 5) you're adding a high slot for the bastion module, an argument could be made that a midslot should be added for the MJD as this seems to be a staple for how it is intended to operate.
The bastion module..... I'm really not digging this thing, its only purpose is mission running, if you were to pvp with it its like a dreadnaught with 1/12 the ehp, 1/10th the damage, 1/4 the tank for 1/2 the price, its going to get splattered by any formidable crew of subcaps.
1) remove the weapons timer - this things already going to have issues in pvp, this is insult to injury. 2) add some kind of a damage bonus, i'd like to see maybe 1200-1300 dps from 425s on a kronos when using this module, prolly about 2k dps when using blasters, too lazy to do the math for the percentages, at least im not asking for crazyness like 3-4k like others. 3) add some kind of energy neut protection, this thing pretty much has every form of defense covered except that, add a base 25% reflect when the bastion module is activated maybe? I mean this is basically a 2 trick pony if you're going to sit still with your 1bil base hull cost shiny thing using the godmode defensive module of the century it should at least have all the obvious vulnerabilities plugged.
What he said. Really need the drones. |

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:57:00 -
[962] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote:The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on... I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change. Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.
Just by itself, this is an awesome improvement and a major buff to target painters.
|

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:59:00 -
[963] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
Thank you for making this change.
Also, can we please get a T2 version of the Bastion Module? |

Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:01:00 -
[964] - Quote
Cycle time for the bastion mod needs to go down. It takes a badly skilled, non-speed fit ceptor 20 seconds to cover 100 km without even overheating. In the meantime, the rest of the gang moves additional 50 k off and has a warpin as well as a scrammed marauder.
Considering the lock times on a ceptor and gun cycles, removal of web bonuses and nerfed drone bays there is little chance of volleying more than 1-2 off before they get under the guns.
In this iteration, they may be nice PVE ships, but otherwise sitting ducks. |

White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:01:00 -
[965] - Quote
So the idea that this would make them any better for PVP seems kinda silly. Fully skilled the bastion mode would still make you a stationary target for i min unable to move. any frig pilot worth their salt can easily close that distance without any fear of being hit by your guns, and to have a ship that expensive that can be easily neuted out by a single cruiser. the risk is very high and the reward is laughable. i get more range but no more damage and once anything gets close i would be totally helpless. for anyone who is unknowing of how the MJD works, a scram shuts it off. if i jumped thru a gate and saw a marauder sitting at 200k in bastion i would simply move laterally pop combats do 1 sweep and warp right to him point him,. range will do nothing for them without the ability to deal with things that get close.
any pilot who has flown a sniper boat knows your mobility is your only saving grace. but for a marauder to make the most of their range they have to give that up. |

DaeHan Minhyok
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:02:00 -
[966] - Quote
I tried scanning through all teh posts to see if anyone mentioned teh golem yet, but didn't see it.
So most people consider the phoenix a worthless dread, mostly because a pos can speed tank citadel torps/cruis, and I see the same problem with this.
Oh yes, let me just MJD and bastion away from this gang, oh yeah, thats right, my torps only go 50ishkm and just about any pvp battleship could speed tank cruise missiles, esp if they're now an extra 100km.
The usless golem is about to stay equally useless.
no thats not quite true, I could always use it to tp for other marauders or play drone bunny for a das boot fleet.
despite the raven base of the golem baybe we can look at giving it turret slots and equivalent bonuses for turret damage as well as/in place of the missile bonuses. I know it was considered for the naga. I understand its a difficlut decision for a set of ships like caldari that are so split between weapon types all up and down the lineup from frigs to caps. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
152
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:07:00 -
[967] - Quote
Amadeus3 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),
For PvE those will a beast ships:
1) long range as needed. 2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin). 3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine. 4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter. 5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracing disruption). 6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.
However for PvP:
1) no buffer 2) no dps advantage 3) immobile 4) asking for tornado alpha strike 5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang 6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention 7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps) 8) no real advantage over anything currently in use 9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.
It's a long post but worth quoting IMHO. I can see how the proposed marauders will rule in PVE but I can't see them being used in PVP (outside of a few niche applications).
Well not entirely true.
1. The extra range is nice on the Paladin, the falloff bonus is kind of pointless on the Kronos(because it is mostly a rail platform) and overall I don't think the bonus is worth the loss in web strength, I would rather like to see that the active tank bonus would removed in favour of a damage application bonus(since it is fairly pointless for L4 and useless for PVE with RR). 2. The lost Sentry option is quite massive nerf for the Kronos, for stuff like Incs you use your full drone bay for sentry's, since you can utilize focus webbing and painting. 3. While it is not really required in Amarr space and on the paladin(because most stuff stays at range) it is fairly important for a sentry/rail Kronos to keep the dps up at closer range and a extreme important bonus for the hulls in Incrusions. 4. You can tank L4 just fine with them now, while fitting 4 damage mods and a T2 damage rig. If you didn't over tank the hulls before, it means nothing. 5. It only really hurts vs Guristas, then again ECM is the worst EW ever. 6. The dps they have with her drones is fine atm, the drone nerf will cost them up to 120dps and will hit the Kronos the hardest(surprisingly the worst marauder dps wise, since it is crippled by missing 2 sentry drones).
Overall if you want to do L4 reasonable quick the changes are bad, you lose dps, you lose the 90% web, you lose a lot of speed with the mwd(because you want to fit a mwd, not a mjd) and take even longer to switch systems, all for a massive active tank, that nobody should need and what prevents you from moving to the next gate while shooting stuff. For PVE with RR like Incursions or WH the changes are even worse, since the active tank stuff does nothing for you and you lose quite a bit dps, speed and one of the best ship bonuses for it.
Even for PVP I would rather prefer a bit more speed, another damage application bonus and a slight buff in the RR ability, to have a good alternative compared to the pirate BS, instead a slow active tanking brick, that screams bait or simple will be shoot last in a gang fight. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
270
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:08:00 -
[968] - Quote
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:Oh yes, let me just MJD and bastion away from this gang, oh yeah, thats right, my torps only go 50ishkm and just about any pvp battleship could speed tank cruise missiles, esp if they're now an extra 100km.
The usless golem is about to stay equally useless.
As horrible as this marauder proposal (fait accomplis?) is, cruise missiles are nowhere near being the problem. Cruise missiles with a target painter will destroy a T2 frigate flying at max speed (i've seen that on SISI). They will also destroy a HAC - even a deimos flying at full speed (again, seen it).
Cruise missiles are currently the best, most versatile battleship class weapons system in the game. They have been made this way to try to push them back into PVP where they have been shunned by FCs for years.
Your golem's cruise missiles will perform perfectly well - and you won't even need to use the micro jump module because they are the only long range weapon system that can hit at short range.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Ares Zhin
Umbrella C0rp Dominatus Atrum Mortis
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:08:00 -
[969] - Quote
so i wasted all that time training for marauder? Please don't do this bastion!! Its ********, just give it a tech 2 profile, keep the web bonuses, KILL THE TRACTOR BEAM or atleast give it a 500% bonus to range and speed.
ADD more armor/shield HP
Keep the drones cuz when frigs get to close what are you going to do then???
For the kronos id love another mid slot so it would be comparable to the vindicator.
ADD MORE SENSOR STRENGTH cuz lets face it, a set of light ecm drones can keep you perma jammed.
If you do these proposed fixes i think it will do well in PVP as well as in PVE if not even better.
Your proposal does NOTHING to fix or help the ship AT ALL. I mean mini- dreads lol, i guess the next thing will be mini-titans.
Please fix the issues before you create new ones!!
|

Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:16:00 -
[970] - Quote
Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP. i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING. |
|

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:23:00 -
[971] - Quote
CCP you are making ships that are good at tanking and beaten in everything else by pirate ships by improving their tanking abilities.
I know you like lmjd, but seriously, why are you trying to make this mod so important? what's next? target braker?
how marauders could be balanced is make them a bit worse than pirate ships (well they are already so we can skip that ) but instead of bastion module, make a module that improves tank and gank at cost of burned fuel which improves over efficiency by 25-50%. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:23:00 -
[972] - Quote
Kirin Xaxos wrote:Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP. i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING. Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:25:00 -
[973] - Quote
why not fix the sensor strength on the marauders? that along with t2 resists would be more then enough to make the PvP viable. the tractor beam buff seems silly altogether. what lvl 4 runner doesn't use a noctis? please keep the web bonus, any paladin or kronos pilot who dosent use their webs or cant seem to make it work probably shouldn't even fly a marauder. half the reason i love the paladin is the webs being able to pop the tiny stuff that gets close, and apply Full DPS to the close orbiting cruisers and BS's i didn't train into this ship to watch my ****** little drones slowly kill frigs and cruisers. i want to webb them down and blap them in a single volly with my guns. |

Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:27:00 -
[974] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kirin Xaxos wrote:Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP. i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING. Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses.
its almost like he was pointing out the glaring weaknesses that are presented with this change, that many had not thought of. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:28:00 -
[975] - Quote
Fruitfly Three wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kirin Xaxos wrote:Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP. i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING. Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses. its almost like he was pointing out the glaring weaknesses that are presented with this change, that many had not thought of. I think most people are aware of both of these. I still think it's going to be a powerful ship. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:29:00 -
[976] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Fruitfly Three wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kirin Xaxos wrote:Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP. i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING. Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses. its almost like he was pointing out the glaring weaknesses that are presented with this change, that many had not thought of. I think most people are aware of both of these. I still think it's going to be a powerful ship.
yet another pirate troll hoping to see some noob trying to use this for anything other then PvE |

Lister Vindaloo
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:29:00 -
[977] - Quote
I love the boldness of the changes it seems to a real step to the side from what everyone was expecting. But similar to the initial industrial rebalance the ships seem to be more homogenous and dont really reflect their racial flavor, why drop drone bay on the Gal hull? Why does only one get ewar bonus? Lets see a bit more variety.
I do like the idea of more than one type is siege module, it could have one for pve performance and one for pvp?
On a side note, can we expect more 'siege' modules or similar for other T2's, or could this new mod have different effects depending on which hull it is fitted to? |

Kestle Gunrunner
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:30:00 -
[978] - Quote
With no damage bonus applied during bastion mode. This module and redesign of the ship will result in failure. If your aim was to get these ships in to pvp, well they wont. Noone will fly a over tanked stationary low dps ship in pvp. Not for the isk involved or the time needed to train for them. In pve, Incursion running yes most likely will be used. However the Tech 3 cruisers will still reign supreme for numerous reasons. The first is the cost, half a bill or less for a t3 that has more flexibility in build. The cost of a Marauder is closer to a Billion. Secound the time needed for training is shorter for the t3. I know folks are pointing at dps, and yes T3s can put out battleship lvl dps if fit for it. The T3 still has a simular tank due to its sig rad plus speed. Lets not mention the fact they can pack a heft tank themselves. So CCP, if you dont wish to have wasted your time developing and redesigning. I suggest you add a damage bonus to this module. If you dont do it on release youll have to come back to it later and do it. |

White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:33:00 -
[979] - Quote
since the marauders would gain no DPS bonus when activated i hardly see any advantage to activating it. loosing mobility is always a bad thing |

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2211
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:33:00 -
[980] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
They will also destroy a HAC
Pretty much anything above a capsule will either destroy or just disengage a HAC once odyssey 1.1 has hit (the latter option is even viable for pods), except battleships or above.
Other than that, Marauders will just end up being PVE ships as before, sometimes used with pirate mplants, boosters and OGBs as gimmicks. You know... morons. |
|

Sarmatiko
1407
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:35:00 -
[981] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote:The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on... I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change. Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.
Have you considered re-introduction of Revorb Target Painter? This module is really screaming "INSTALL ME ON MARAUDER instead of useless garbage you currently fitted in highslots". If you concerned about EWAR balancing issues, why not limit this module to Marauders only, and see what happens? -¥ |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
270
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:46:00 -
[982] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
They will also destroy a HAC
Pretty much anything above a capsule will either destroy or just disengage a HAC once odyssey 1.1 has hit (the latter option is even viable for pods), except battleships or above. Other than that, Marauders will just end up being PVE ships as before, sometimes used with pirate implants, boosters and OGBs as gimmicks.
Or more likely as 10 million EHP cyno bait trollships.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:48:00 -
[983] - Quote
Like i wrote some pages back ... this module is good idea but it lack offensive abilities, specially for pvp its big problem and as u wrote this is about making maraucers more pvp like ... i have some ideas about this
1) Give to Bastion module little offensive boost, for example 25% damage and tracking bonus for turrets and equal bonus to missiles
2) Give Bastion module bigger offensive bonus but less deffensive bonus ... something like 50% bonus to damage of turrets and drones and 25% bonus to tracking of turrets and drones and change repair bonus to 50% from actual suggestion of 100%
3) While in Bastion mode marauders will get 25% bonus to damage and tracking of drones and amount of drones in space will be increased by 5 (up to 10) + marauders will get big drone bay and in bastion also big drone bandwith
And if u planning to keep their tractor beam range bonus it would be nice to increase it little because lack of mobility in bastion + give to marauders little charge bay so charges wont get mixed with salvage |

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
71
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:51:00 -
[984] - Quote
Did coming up with those changes involve the consumption of large quantities of alcohol?
Out of deployed mode they will be as useless as ever in PvP due to their sensor strength not being fixed, a flight of EC-300 will likely be all it takes to take one out of the fight. (and nerfed drone bay removes a line of defense against that).
In deployed mode, neuts and moderate dps (sub 5k) will make short work of them, because even a 150% boosted tank won't be enough at all vs any gang worth fighting...
The only good role I see for them is being deployed against poorly defended POS in highsec... What an awesome niche to be in...
Seriously, what about stopping inventing ******** roles, just unnerf their sensor strength and sig radius and progress from there? |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5743
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:02:00 -
[985] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I know the stacking penalty doesn't apply to the resistance bonus on the bastion module, but what about the optimal/falloff bonuses, the repair amount bonus, and the missile velocity bonus? IMO it really should not be stacking penalized.
Also it would be amazing if there were a tracking bonus on the module as well.
My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
354
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:04:00 -
[986] - Quote
Serious suggestion here.
The Marauders are all based on the Attack hulls. So the logical specialization of Marauders, especially given their NAME, their FLAVOUR TEXT and their general feel?
-Keep this special Marauder module. However: It should do the following:
- 30% increase to shield, hull and structure resistances
- 50-75% reduction to active tanking module capacitor use
- 150-200% reduction to 100MN MWD capacitor use (Seriously- they're SO CAP HUNGRY that they're NEARLY USELESS, when almost every other subcapital T2 ship is CAP STABLE with the MWD running- WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?)
- 10% reduction in signature radius (Or more, or less- this is not a final number.)
- When this module is activated, the ship's agility INCREASES. Speed unchanged.
- Possible penalty to the range of weapons but with a little better damage application.
And then, take a look at the Marauders as follows. They are, as stated earlier, based on the Attack hulls. So, why not make them slightly faster by default (Very slightly, like maybe 1% or 2%), but a little less agile, so that once this module is active, they're more agile? Mass on par with or lighter than the current Attack BS hulls. Other alterations include increasing their sensor strength to 22-23 depending on hull. I don't really see the purpose of the tractor beam bonuses and etc. because the Noctis is a thing. Those could be replaced with something else, on a ship per ship basis.
"But what about the Machariel? Won't these Marauders that actually maraud interfere with it's role?"
Not really. The Marauders require this module to be active in order to run their MWD for significant periods of time (Suggestion: give the Machariel a role bonus that massively decreases 100MN MWD use). The Marauders are specialized into utilizing this module to become a very fast (for a battleship), high damage and resilient platform for when you are in a small, mobile gang, and actually want serious firepower that can keep up with you. Their main targets should be battlecruisers and battleships, but still have effectiveness against cruisers- frigates not so much. That's a role that doesn't really exist right now to my knowledge, and would be far better at harassment than... These changes. And again, the Marauders should focus on active tanking so as to not let them completely overtake everything in large gang fights.
Please hear us out here- this is not the right direction for Marauders. In fact I would be absolutely thrilled to see this intended role (T2 battleship that uses the Bastion Module and MJDs and etc. to basically become the stepping stone from subcaps to dreadnoughts) based on the tier 3 hulls. That'd fit SO much better IMO. I'm sure loads of other people in this thread would agree. So again, this idea isn't bad, it just doesn't 'fit'. This also IMO would decouple them from PvE somewhat. |

Balthazar Lestrane
Viziam Amarr Empire
62
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:05:00 -
[987] - Quote
I wonder when T2 and Pirate Faction Frigates are going to get some love. |

Lee Church
FridgeOre Mining Group The Butterfly Effect Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:18:00 -
[988] - Quote
I think it would be a good idea to give marauders a T2 MJD (kinda like cov ops have a cov ops cloak) it would have slightly longer jump range with the same spool up etc, but the main advantage would be the ability to dictate how far you want to jump.
A standard MJD only really has the advantage of letting you GTFO (unless scrammed). for the kronos, using blasters, this isnt that usefull.... (as opposed to a sniper ship) but with the T2 MJD it would be a whole different story.
PVE : you would align to the heart of the rat fleet, jump in and drop into bastion, pound on the rats until your mjd has cooled down, then jump to the next best location for you blasters.
PVP : similar concept, and would play into the idea of it being a harrassing ship.
combined with a damage/ROF bonus, say 50% dps increase (i.e a 50% damage or a 35% rof bonus/some cobination of the two) the new marauders would be able to dictate range and lay down a lot of damage for a short period of time until the enemy fleet reacted to the rapid change in positioning.
just my thoughts on making CCPs raging desire to see MJDs used actually give us something interesting to play with. |

Simmar en Distel
Collegium of Eminent Technotopia
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:20:00 -
[989] - Quote
TRANSFORMING...
BLACKOUT deploying ECM BURST
MJD ACTIVATED....
:) |

Dead Jedi
Globaltech Industries Yulai Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:24:00 -
[990] - Quote
[quote=CCP Ytterbium][list]
In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
While you are at it why don't you make all the dreads and carriers transform when their triage and siege modules are enabled. 
|
|

Tzel Mayon
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:28:00 -
[991] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Serious suggestion here.
Not really. The Marauders require this module to be active in order to run their MWD for significant periods of time (Suggestion: give the Machariel a role bonus that massively decreases 100MN MWD use). The Marauders are specialized into utilizing this module to become a very fast (for a battleship), high damage and resilient platform for when you are in a small, mobile gang, and actually want serious firepower that can keep up with you. Their main targets should be battlecruisers and battleships, but still have effectiveness against cruisers- frigates not so much. That's a role that doesn't really exist right now to my knowledge, and would be far better at harassment than... These changes. And again, the Marauders should focus on active tanking so as to not let them completely overtake everything in large gang fights.
.
I really like the idea about the MWD bonuses.
Give Marauders the ability to dual prop an MWD and MJD. Keep the signature bonus penalty, if you want. This kind of battlefield agility needs some sort of risk.
So, it can be warp disrupted, and the MWD AND the MJD would be ineffective.
I do think with this kind of mobility, they will need damage projection buffs. And with the MWD, potentially a tracking bonus for gun ships.
The "Siege Mode" could be used for tracking, projection, and DPS.
I believe there should be another ship entirely for a siege mode with a tank bonus.
Maruaders, by definition of Harassment, hit and run, etc, are NOT tanky ships.
So, perhaps change the goal of "Harassment" to something else, or give us a ship that can really harass!
As a side note, can we have a Robotec class frigates? -- I mean, we have hacking mini-games now... why not Transforming Robot Ninjas in space? :) |

LtTrog
Lonetrek Blacksoul Federation Blacksoul Tribal Nation
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:28:00 -
[992] - Quote
interesting ideas but one problem regarding the golem, the range bonus is useless for cruise fits a dps or dps application bonus would be better. Torps them selves just need a slight range boost but thats another post.
this is going to make them scary in null pve not sure id want to be stuck in bastion when I see probes on scan then again with that tank you could hold off a small gang |

Galphii
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:35:00 -
[993] - Quote
The term 'marauder' speaks of a fast, hit-and-run sort of vessel, not 'I'm going to sit here for a minute and be bait'.
Speed is far more valuable in a fight than protection, so I'd suggest forgetting about the stationary 'mini-dreadnought' thing you've got going at the moment and consider other options. Marauding options.
- Drop the tractor beam and ewar options. They're not useful in the new role you're plotting out and there is also the Noctis.
- Increase the sensor strength to normal BS levels.
- Have the 'bastion' module disable warp drive and shunt power to weapons and conventional engines (speed+dps). Now that's useful for raiding. Combine that with the MJD and you've got a big, high damage ship that's a little fragile but highly mobile, perfect for hit and run.
X |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
279
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:08:00 -
[994] - Quote
Fruitfly Three wrote:why not fix the sensor strength on the marauders? that along with t2 resists would be more then enough to make the PvP viable. the tractor beam buff seems silly altogether. what lvl 4 runner doesn't use a noctis? please keep the web bonus, any paladin or kronos pilot who dosent use their webs or cant seem to make it work probably shouldn't even fly a marauder. half the reason i love the paladin is the webs being able to pop the tiny stuff that gets close, and apply Full DPS to the close orbiting cruisers and BS's i didn't train into this ship to watch my ****** little drones slowly kill frigs and cruisers. i want to webb them down and blap them in a single volly with my guns.
The tractor beam buff goes under "might as well" because it gives the option to use htem, otherwise there would be no point whatsoever. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
348
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:10:00 -
[995] - Quote
blah blah blah, all this is useless, tanking is not the issue with marauders, its DPS application and projection, sure having super tanked ships is nice, but no matter how much tank I can drop, offensive modules will not make up for it, the idea of PVE is to maximize efficiency by killing as fast as possible.
Adding more tank will not help at all, not to mention in missions for example most of time you have to fly to mid range gates and such, so the mjd is useless.
On the golem side for the love of god, change the bonus from target painting to missile exp radius, you can EFT it or try it on the server, you need at the very least 3 target painters to make it do damage worth enough, and having to fiddle with those is a pain, even with the time reduction, because the server has this stupid 1second frequency update time which causes modules to do 1 extra cycle all the time.
overall, just disappointed, I don't need more tank... I want firepower. I would be happy with half the tank if I were to get 50% more firepower. |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
348
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:12:00 -
[996] - Quote
Galphii wrote:The term 'marauder' speaks of a fast, hit-and-run sort of vessel, not 'I'm going to sit here for a minute and be bait'. Speed is far more valuable in a fight than protection, so I'd suggest forgetting about the stationary 'mini-dreadnought' thing you've got going at the moment and consider other options. Marauding options.
- Drop the tractor beam and ewar options. They're not useful in the new role you're plotting out and there is also the Noctis.
- Increase the sensor strength to normal BS levels.
- Have the 'bastion' module disable warp drive and shunt power to weapons and conventional engines (speed+dps). Now that's useful for raiding. Combine that with the MJD and you've got a big, high damage ship that's a little fragile but highly mobile, perfect for hit and run.
even this guy gets it, we need application and damage, any ship can easily tank heavy sites with just some speed or specific tanks. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
962
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:14:00 -
[997] - Quote
If anything i think the proposed marauders need more dps and tank not less...
Just like a dread, marauders need to be able to survive in deployed mode against a typical fleet and be able to do a lot of dps while in that mode. Once out of deployed, the ship can receive reps from logi but with such a low sensor strength, it might not be doing any dps if the hostile have an ECM ship. Putting work in since 2010. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
279
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:17:00 -
[998] - Quote
White Bear Maricadie wrote: yet another pirate troll hoping to see some noob trying to use this for anything other then PvE
Such a cynic. As a wormholer, you can be assured I'm not some lowsec pirate trying to get people to fly blinged out Marauders into my gatecamp, and I think Marauders will be an excellent addition to EVE.
They will have such a tank that they can outlast most gang, and with their EWar immunity falcons won't be an issue, in fact Falcons will be fearing Marauders more than the other way around.
A Vargur, with L5 skills, standard blue pill, crystals, will be boosting ~5k HP per cycle (every 5 seconds), and with the boosted resists of Bastion, and one invuln and one damage control, A dual ASB Vargur will be quite a beast.
Your cynicism is making you blind to what an oplolpwnmobile these ships will be. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
50
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:45:00 -
[999] - Quote
I'm still waiting for an answer on if it can jump through a wh while in bastion mode. That's a real game changer in wh space.
Hellooooooooo? anyone? |

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:45:00 -
[1000] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:White Bear Maricadie wrote: yet another pirate troll hoping to see some noob trying to use this for anything other then PvE
Such a cynic. As a wormholer, you can be assured I'm not some lowsec pirate trying to get people to fly blinged out Marauders into my gatecamp, and I think Marauders will be an excellent addition to EVE. They will have such a tank that they can outlast most gang, and with their EWar immunity falcons won't be an issue, in fact Falcons will be fearing Marauders more than the other way around. A Vargur, with L5 skills, standard blue pill, crystals, will be boosting ~5k HP per cycle (every 5 seconds), and with the boosted resists of Bastion, and one invuln and one damage control, A dual ASB Vargur will be quite a beast. Your cynicism is making you blind to what an oplolpwnmobile these ships will be.
He's right 99% of the time. I'm sure PL will have some sort of Marauder doctrine and they will have a killmail or ten to justify the ISK but this ship was always an elitist ship and that hasn't changed. |
|

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5743
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:53:00 -
[1001] - Quote
So were titans. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Just Lilly
117
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:01:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:12:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Just Lilly wrote: Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo
why scary, they still have pathetic dps |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:18:00 -
[1004] - Quote
My issue is that the module is trying to be two things at once. If used for it's sniping benefits, the tank isn't as useful. However, if put into a brawler the tank becomes a huge bonus but the range would be better served as an application bonus instead. There's also the problem of MJD being useless for the brawler archetype.
What I'd like to see would be either two separate modules or a scripting capability. If I want to snipe, I MJD out of the fray, bastion up, and start raining hell from beyond. If I want to brawl, I MJD (man I wish I could pick distance even if it was in 25K or 50K increments) to the center of the pack, bastion up, and start melting hulls up close and personal like. |

Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:20:00 -
[1005] - Quote
There are a lot of question about this change but I think a big one is: why more than double the tanking ability of the Marauder and then only give 25% boost to weapon range (and tracking for turrets)? Maybe there should be more/bigger damage application bonuses too.
EW immunity is interesting, this doesn't include neuts does it? But it does include both ECM and tracking disruption I take it.
It will be interesting to see what the Kronos with Null ammo will be able to do. This is the first (and only) Hybrid BS with a bonus to falloff. Looks like with 2 Tracking Comp 2 the current Kronos gets optimal 15km and falloff 30 which means the new Kronos will have Optimal+Falloff of about 60km or more. That's with 900+ DPS.
Note that this Kronos Blaster range is well short of the 100km range created by the MJD making the Kronos' falloff bonus less relevant. Other short range weapon systems such as Torps will have the same issues, as will target painters.
Anyway it's an improvement over the current Marauder with and I think the tanking bonuses will make it the I Win button for Level 4 Missions. But, well, it costs 900M so maybe it should be.
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4561
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:38:00 -
[1006] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Phaade wrote:Izi55IzI wrote:Well i expected the marauder "rebalancing" will be stupid, but damn, this is a whole new level of dumb, while you're at it, make the remaining 4 slots into yu-gi-oh card launchers.
How hard is it to make a t2 bs, with t2 resists and decent sensor strenght?
I especially find the harrasing angle funny, you're making a slower, less base armor/shield, less dps, than pirate/faction battleship into a "harrasing" bs, just because you should fit a MJD. You do realize that people actually fit scramblers? And how exactly does that add to the fitting options? Looks like MJD and Cap booster are going to be mandatory along with the bastion module.
Anyway stop using alcohol or drugs while changing the game, worse, if you're sober while doing it, fire the people behind those ideas.
You already ****** up the marauders once, don't do it again.
I know your just going to ignore everything I just wrote, since you have an infinite number of fanboys wanting transformation effects, but can I at least get my skillpoints back from the marauders V skill?
Why would you say something so stupid? Granted I don't use Marauders, but wtf are you thinking? This is probably the most interesting change they could have made. These ships will be able to unleash insane firepower in fleet / small gang situations, after jumping 100km away. How ******* awesome is that? intead of your stupidity... "YA I JUST WANT T2 RESIST BS' AND ****" What a tard. where do you see insane firepower? there is no bonus to DPS, and if you try to use this mod at range, you can be combat probed, and bombed or alphaed off the field because *derp* you made the mistake of activating this mod and you can't move/warp for a minute
That's a good point, and a problem in general for snipers of all types... especially slow/stationary ones.
Kinda makes a strong case for combat probing to be reworked, doesn't it. 
When whole combat styles are disenfranchised, that's the problem. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
280
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:47:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Skydell wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:White Bear Maricadie wrote: yet another pirate troll hoping to see some noob trying to use this for anything other then PvE
Such a cynic. As a wormholer, you can be assured I'm not some lowsec pirate trying to get people to fly blinged out Marauders into my gatecamp, and I think Marauders will be an excellent addition to EVE. They will have such a tank that they can outlast most gang, and with their EWar immunity falcons won't be an issue, in fact Falcons will be fearing Marauders more than the other way around. A Vargur, with L5 skills, standard blue pill, crystals, will be boosting ~5k HP per cycle (every 5 seconds), and with the boosted resists of Bastion, and one invuln and one damage control, A dual ASB Vargur will be quite a beast. Your cynicism is making you blind to what an oplolpwnmobile these ships will be. He's right 99% of the time. I'm sure PL will have some sort of Marauder doctrine and they will have a killmail or ten to justify the ISK but this ship was always an elitist ship and that hasn't changed.
And then BL dropped 50 tracking dreads and two-shots each marauder.
The solution to a big gun is an even bigger one.
nahjustwarpin wrote:Just Lilly wrote: Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo
why scary, they still have pathetic dps
1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4561
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:51:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Ares Zhin wrote:so i wasted all that time training for marauder? Please don't do this bastion!! Its ********, just give it a tech 2 profile, keep the web bonuses, KILL THE TRACTOR BEAM or atleast give it a 500% bonus to range and speed.
ADD more armor/shield HP
Keep the drones cuz when frigs get to close what are you going to do then???
For the kronos id love another mid slot so it would be comparable to the vindicator.
ADD MORE SENSOR STRENGTH cuz lets face it, a set of light ecm drones can keep you perma jammed.
If you do these proposed fixes i think it will do well in PVP as well as in PVE if not even better.
Your proposal does NOTHING to fix or help the ship AT ALL. I mean mini- dreads lol, i guess the next thing will be mini-titans.
Please fix the issues before you create new ones!!
You realize that all of the downsides you mentioned don't really exist when in Bastion mode right?
It gets a huge tanking bonus, far more than T2 resists would provide. It has a couple of flights of light drones to deal with frigates, as well as plenty of high slots for large neuts. It is immune to EW.
I'm not saying that flaws don't exist, but none of them are the ones you pointed to. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
233
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:52:00 -
[1009] - Quote
i would add a 5th turret/launcher |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
402
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:53:00 -
[1010] - Quote
-1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you.-
Considering ze shitiest t1 bs can do same or a lot more while being mobile why are you impressed? http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4561
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:55:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Fruitfly Three wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kirin Xaxos wrote:Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP. i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING. Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses. its almost like he was pointing out the glaring weaknesses that are presented with this change, that many had not thought of. If the tackler has a scram (which he will have to have to stop you) he is well within large neut range. You will have 3 free high slots. Do the math.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
233
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:57:00 -
[1012] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Just Lilly wrote: Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo
why scary, they still have pathetic dps 1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you. yes 1000 dps for a T2 BS its kind of pathetic
and since gank is the tank for mission thats why ppl dont use them very often |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
280
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:04:00 -
[1013] - Quote
To mare wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Just Lilly wrote: Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo
why scary, they still have pathetic dps 1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you. yes 1000 dps for a T2 BS its kind of pathetic and since gank is the tank for mission thats why ppl dont use them very often
1000 DPS with a tank that no other subcap has? I think that's a fair...
Gank is the tank of mission runners, and since Bastion gives an increased tank, more slots are opened up for gank (tracking computers, webs, target painters, damage mods, tracking enhancers). How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4562
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:11:00 -
[1014] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:To mare wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Just Lilly wrote: Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo
why scary, they still have pathetic dps 1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you. yes 1000 dps for a T2 BS its kind of pathetic and since gank is the tank for mission thats why ppl dont use them very often 1000 DPS with a tank that no other subcap has? I think that's a fair... Gank is the tank of mission runners, and since Bastion gives an increased tank, more slots are opened up for gank (tracking computers, webs, target painters, damage mods, tracking enhancers). Edit: A balance of gank and tank is required, and given their potential tank, average gank is to be expected Very true. I think people keep thinking of their current fits and forget that for most missions these Marauders will need next to no tank fittings. Nearly everything can be devoted to offense. Not to mention excellent range even from their most powerful short range weapons. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:18:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Edit: A balance of gank and tank is required, and given their potential tank, average gank is to be expected[/quote] Very true. I think people keep thinking of their current fits and forget that for most missions these Marauders will need next to no tank fittings. Nearly everything can be devoted to offense. Not to mention excellent range even from their most powerful short range weapons.[/quote]
I don't think you realize that if you doing marauders with more than hardener and booster you are doing it wrong bastion module don't change that it only provide more tank on already sufficient one.
But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
281
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:26:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Edit: A balance of gank and tank is required, and given their potential tank, average gank is to be expected Very true. I think people keep thinking of their current fits and forget that for most missions these Marauders will need next to no tank fittings. Nearly everything can be devoted to offense. Not to mention excellent range even from their most powerful short range weapons.[/quote]
I don't think you realize that if you doing marauders with more than hardener and booster you are doing it wrong bastion module don't change that it only provide more tank on already sufficient one.
But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table.[/quote]
You could simply fit MJD or MWD, you can always not use a bonus.
Not to mention bastion gives you immunity to ECM, damps, and tracking disruptors, AND a 25% range bonus!
Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
354
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:27:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Edit: But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table.
Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:31:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Edit: But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table. Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike? That is true. Still a MWD will be fairly essential, though it will only be used to travel to AC gates and to get in range to collect loot. In actual combat you'll be relying on your MJD. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:35:00 -
[1019] - Quote
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Tauranon
Weeesearch
236
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:36:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Edit: But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table. Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike?
Marauders have huge cargos for a battleship.
I run a blaster kronos, it has enough cargo capacity to bring enough cap 800s to not worry about cap budgeting when burning about. If it concerns you, you can also buy an x-type mwd which has no cap penalty (like people to do save cap on vindicators), but mere faction has always been fine for me on a kronos.
|
|

Tauranon
Weeesearch
236
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:37:00 -
[1021] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
I already use a blaster kronos, I can't see that it will always be slower, because that's a setup that is going to be highly improved when it can project its 1600dps further...
edit : not quite 1600 anymore stupid drone... |

That Seems Legit
State War Academy Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:37:00 -
[1022] - Quote
To mare wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:Just Lilly wrote: Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo
why scary, they still have pathetic dps 1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you. yes 1000 dps for a T2 BS its kind of pathetic and since gank is the tank for mission thats why ppl dont use them very often theres more to eves pve then missions. I can see these being useful elsewhere. Maybe. Kinda...
K im lying I think they suck.
Adding more damage isnt going to fix them though. They'd still be an immobile gimmicky mini dread. Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps! |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
282
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:41:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
CCP isn't nerfing DPS... or your speed if you choose not to use the bastion module. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:47:00 -
[1024] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
CCP isn't nerfing DPS... or your speed if you choose not to use the bastion module. Well, they did nerf speed and agility a bit... as well as some drone damage, a slight bit of tank, and the web bonus.
However the Marauder hulls gain:
A significant boost to weapons range. A significant boost in targeting range and scan resolution. An 8th high slot. A big increase to fittings, both CPU and power grid. A really big increase in Cap amount and recharge. A big reduction in sig radius.
All on top of being far better at leveraging the use of a MJD than any other ship in the game, as well as being the only ship capable of using the Bastion module.
So if his idea of excitement is simply close range brawling he can slap on his most damaging short range weapons, highest damage ammo, 4 NOS or Neuts, and as much tank as he thinks he needs with the ample fittings and go to town. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Calzan
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:53:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Since we're getting a 'shoot and scoot' mode I like the slightly faster lock times.
Seems like ewar fleets would hate these guys as the bastion cycle is only 60 seconds and provides a giant tank/local rep bonus (2 reps for the price of one, and most hulls are getting better capacitor).
Is it immune to Target Spectrum Breakers? Is it immune to Remote ECM Bursts?
cause... damn, that's some crazy pvp possibilities. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:02:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Calzan wrote:Since we're getting a 'shoot and scoot' mode I like the slightly faster lock times.
Seems like ewar fleets would hate these guys as the bastion cycle is only 60 seconds and provides a giant tank/local rep bonus (2 reps for the price of one, and most hulls are getting better capacitor).
Is it immune to Target Spectrum Breakers? Is it immune to Remote ECM Bursts?
cause... damn, that's some crazy pvp possibilities. Hmm, since one of the biggest draw back to using a Target Spectrum Breaker is that it breaks your own locks, if it is immune to the effect that makes them somewhat more viable for a Marauder to use themselves in a large fleet engagement. They can't benefit from logistics anyway (whose locks would be likely broken) and it would cut down on a tremendous amount of incoming fire (except from Sentry drones).
Marauders might almost make Target Spectrum Breakers viable to use in a fleet battle. If we could only get some concrete stats on how the jamming effect scales vs the number of people targeting you we'd be able to tell for sure. I'd take a bonus to that instead of the tractor beam bonus.
However CCP doesn't really want them to be viable for large fleet combat, so a bonus to that end is highly unlikely.
Still... To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:08:00 -
[1027] - Quote
With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.
Wrong: * --------------------> = gate
Right: *..............= gate ..\............/ ....\......../ ......\..../ ........\/ ........2
It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat. |

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
245
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:19:00 -
[1028] - Quote
I don't really get what they're after with this.
In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.
In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.
In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.
In PvE:
Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.
Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.
Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.
Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.
TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament. thhief ghabmoef |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:19:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.
Wrong: * --------------------> = gate
Right: *..............= gate ..\............/ ....\......../ ......\..../ ........\/ ........2
It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat.
  Yeah, I've done that. I think I suck at geometry. 
Still, it did help quite a bit. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:30:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:I don't really get what they're after with this.
In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.
In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.
In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.
In PvE:
Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.
Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.
Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.
Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.
TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament. They still need work, yes... but a few points to consider.
Bubbles don't affect MJD's. You can out range most opponents. You still have a couple of flights of light drones to deal with tacklers, and plenty of room for neuts. You have literally tons of space for cap charges. Some of them do get tracking bonuses, they all have some form of damage or damage application bonus. In a small/medium gang you'll obviously have other ships tackling. You don't have to be in Bastion mode the whole time, and have better resists than T1 hulls in or out of Bastion mode. T3 and pirate vessels haven't been balanced yet, so we'll have to see how they compare afterward. Marauders are not designed to engage in blob warfare, their PVP activity will likely be smaller scale engagements. You can put a remarkable tank on them, so I'm not too sure Incursions are out of the question. You could be right on this point. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

To mare
Advanced Technology
234
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:49:00 -
[1031] - Quote
why not give them a mwd sig bonus?
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:54:00 -
[1032] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
CCP isn't nerfing DPS... or your speed if you choose not to use the bastion module.
they are literally nerfing non-bastion mode speed down to like 80ms |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:56:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.
Wrong: * --------------------> = gate
Right: *..............= gate ..\............/ ....\......../ ......\..../ ........\/ ........2
It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat.
its pointless, needless complication and irritation. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 04:58:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:I don't really get what they're after with this.
In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.
In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.
In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.
In PvE:
Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.
Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.
Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.
Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.
TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament.
100% agree
|

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
246
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:13:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:I don't really get what they're after with this.
In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.
In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.
In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.
In PvE:
Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.
Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.
Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.
Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.
TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament. They still need work, yes... but a few points to consider. Bubbles don't affect MJD's. You can out range most opponents. You still have a couple of flights of light drones to deal with tacklers, and plenty of room for neuts. Remember only scrams can hold you from MJDing, well within your neut range. You have literally tons of space for cap charges. Some of them do get tracking bonuses, they all have some form of damage or damage application bonus. In a small/medium gang you'll obviously have other ships tackling. And if the fight does end up out of your considerable weapons range, you can MJD once a minute to get back on top of it if you need to (or away from it if you need to). You don't have to be in Bastion mode the whole time, and have better resists than T1 or pirate BS hulls in or out of Bastion mode. T3 and pirate vessels haven't been balanced yet, so we'll have to see how they compare afterward. Marauders are not designed to engage in blob warfare, their PVP activity will likely be smaller scale engagements. You can put a remarkable tank on them, so I'm not too sure Incursions are out of the question. You could be right on this point. Fair points, all. Some things to consider, however:
If you can outrange everything, you're using long range guns, and depending on the ships and fits involved, ships as large as combat BCs or even attack battleships can get under them as long as they're outside your web range.
If you use short range guns, you probably can't even outrange the average sentry ship or long range HAC, and you can't chase things down, so you'd better hope things stay in range of your LR ammo.
Bubbles don't affect MJD's, but they do affect your ability to GTFO without first MJDing away and hoping you aren't caught while realigning.
The drones and neuts are only gonna help if you're tackled by small ships. One enemy battleship, HIC, proteus, Arazu/Lachesis, etc. on grid and you're stuck there for a while.
Cap charges only go so far, especially if you have an enemy cap warfare hull on grid.
The (slightly) better resists are nullified by the low buffer and limited slots. You aren't gonna tank much of anything without that module active. Might as well be in a navy hull at that point, you know?
Unless they change the balancing pecking order, the pirate battleships will still kill things faster than any other subcap hull. T3s will probably have their tank nerfed, which would help the situation a bit.
Agreed about blob warfare.
Even with the uber tank, you'd still barely manage to tank vanguards with them, and finding enough people with the skills to fly them like that would be a problem. Plus, they'd still be out-dps'd by the pirate hulls, even losing a ship to a logi position...a bit of range isn't going to help that, and you can't fit as many damage/range modules on them. thhief ghabmoef |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:25:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Fruitfly Three wrote:why not fix the sensor strength on the marauders? that along with t2 resists would be more then enough to make the PvP viable. the tractor beam buff seems silly altogether. what lvl 4 runner doesn't use a noctis? please keep the web bonus, any paladin or kronos pilot who dosent use their webs or cant seem to make it work probably shouldn't even fly a marauder. half the reason i love the paladin is the webs being able to pop the tiny stuff that gets close, and apply Full DPS to the close orbiting cruisers and BS's i didn't train into this ship to watch my ****** little drones slowly kill frigs and cruisers. i want to webb them down and blap them in a single volly with my guns.
why wait for them to get close to kill them with a volley when you can just kill them in one shot on approach? there are very few missions where the web makes sense.
and I love the tractor beam bonus for picking up loot cans to finish the mission.
as for the golem getting a TP bonus, well give us a tracking comp type mod for missiles and then we can talk about getting rid of the TP bonus.
*edit* I suppose I am a bit sad for the loss of the web bonus for incursion fleets, ah well, vindi or bust! You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:37:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Edit: But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table. Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike?
like adding a few plates. not a real big difference imo as the main use is just getting to a gate. and most of the missions where you want to move I don't think bastion mode would be needed. also need to see how it works getting up to speed and then using bastion mode, I wonder how much you coast. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:37:00 -
[1038] - Quote
As I suggested earlier, it would be interesting to look at having 2-3 independent modules/scripts. Here's a shot at how it would look. Feel free to tear it apart:
Sniper Module/Script
Survival Bonuses
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
Damage Projection
- Extends falloff and optimal of large turrets and target painters by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
- Increases sensor resolution by 25%
- Increases max targeting range by 25%
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp
What I like about this is it solves some of the inconsistencies of the original module. The range bonus isn't as effective when paired with long range weapon systems as they already easily approach the max targeting range of the hull, especially when using long range T2 ammo. Adding the bonus to max targeting range allows these hulls to take full advantage of the range bonus when in bastion mode.
The sensor resolution bonus is really just flavor and would help target locking speed on warp in and especially if going into bastion mode drops all current targets. From a lore/realism standpoint, it works well to explain why you cannot move once in bastion mode. Any movement would disrupt the delicate nature of the enhanced sensor and targeting systems.
Brawler Module/Script
Survival Bonuses
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
- Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% or
- Increases shield and armor hit points by X% or
- Decreases shield and armor repair cap use by 50% and Increases shield and armor repair amount by 50%
- Periodic ECM multispectrum burst while in bastion mode to reduce incoming damage, annoy anyone in range :)
- Replaces one of the above: Increases cap recharge by 30-50% to ward off nueting
Damage Application
- Increases target painter effectiveness by 50%
- Increases stasis webifier range by 100% or
- Increases stasis webifier effectiveness by 50%
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp
This form of the module or script would make the marauder a fearsome brawler and provide a reason to go into bastion mode if packing short range large weapons. The tanking capabilities are pretty much the same as the original module with some added options on how to implement the rep/buffer bonuses. I don't like the 100% rep amount because they almost force you to fit an ASB or AAR or go home in a pvp situation. If it was part rep and part buffer, this would help with the "alpha issue" as well. I really think this needs a look considering the elimination of remote assistance while in bastion mode.
The main difference is that in the brawler version of the module or script, the ability of the platform to apply its damage is enhanced instead of projection. If I'm going to jump into the middle of a furball and plant roots, I better damn well be able to melt faces before I wake up in the clone vat. This type of style would be amazingly visceral and pretty much awesome although expensive. I chose to boost painters and webifiers as they affect application almost symmetrically for turrets and missiles.
The third module type would center around drones. I don't use drones enough to put together a good bonus set so I'll ask someone with more experience to give it a try. Also, having a third option here really starts looking like a T3 module set so I hesitate to go beyond 2. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:41:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.
Wrong: * --------------------> = gate
Right: *..............= gate ..\............/ ....\......../ ......\..../ ........\/ ........2
It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat.
yes that works, but for the most part I want to sit close to the npcs so I can use the highest damage ammo. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Comto Aldent
Circulus Exousias
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:46:00 -
[1040] - Quote
I'm looking forward to these changes. Furthermore, this is just to make marauders unkillable by ganks in highsec. |
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1487
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:48:00 -
[1041] - Quote
If you want to see these out side high sec more then you may need to consider giving them a role bonus to eliminate the spool-up time on the micro jump drive. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
154
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:53:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Could we perhaps have some mass reduction trick on them so we get to use them in WHs? Maybe an extra script for the bastion module which would reduce its mass to manageable level (20-40 mil) while temporarily gimping them (no remote assistance and no regular bastion bonuses)? W-Space Realtor |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:56:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Quote:Fair points, all. Some things to consider, however:
If you can outrange everything, you're using long range guns, and depending on the ships and fits involved, ships as large as combat BCs or even attack battleships can get under them as long as they're outside your web range.
If you use short range guns, you probably can't even outrange the average sentry ship or long range HAC, and you can't chase things down, so you'd better hope things stay in range of your LR ammo.
Bubbles don't affect MJD's, but they do affect your ability to GTFO without first MJDing away and hoping you aren't caught while realigning.
The drones and neuts are only gonna help if you're tackled by small ships. One enemy battleship, HIC, proteus, Arazu/Lachesis, etc. on grid and you're stuck there for a while.
Cap charges only go so far, especially if you have an enemy cap warfare hull on grid.
The (slightly) better resists are nullified by the low buffer and limited slots. You aren't gonna tank much of anything without that module active. Might as well be in a navy hull at that point, you know?
Unless they change the balancing pecking order, the pirate battleships will still kill things faster than any other subcap hull. T3s will probably have their tank nerfed, which would help the situation a bit.
Agreed about blob warfare.
Even with the uber tank, you'd still barely manage to tank vanguards with them, and finding enough people with the skills to fly them like that would be a problem. Plus, they'd still be out-dps'd by the pirate hulls, even losing a ship to a logi position...a bit of range isn't going to help that. You just can't fit as many damage/range modules on them, much less goodies like a SeBo and webs. Excellent and thoughtful response. A few (well intended) counter points.
All Marauder hulls get a big range bonus (7.5% per level for turrets or a 10% missile velocity bonus). The Bastion module increases that a further 25% to optimal and falloff and missile velocity by a further 25%). Even the shortest ranged weapons will be hitting at fairly extreme ranges. Long range weapons will be ridiculous.
Small and medium sized vessels scramming you can be easily neuted out by staggering your neuts. If another BS scrams you you'll still likely have a neut and cap charge advantage over him, but with the Bastion mode timer being so short (and your bonus to MJD use) you've screwed up at that point by not jumping 100km away from him before he closed on you.
On the cap charge issue, their cargo bays really are huge. Or you could always go the route of using NOS in some of those high slots as an anti Neut defense to extend your cap life.
As to MJDing out of a bubble, you just align normally. After you MJD out of the bubble you are already at speed and aligned for an instant warp out. You also haven't lost your lock on your target (unless you simply get out of targeting range, which is unlikely with their new base stats) in case you want to linger there for awhile.
While your armor and shields did go down a bit (although LOL hull seems to have gone up) you haven't lost any slots. If you prefer to run without a Bastion module (or simply don't choose to run it all the time) you can make excellent use of friendly logistics due to those resists... and now have PLENTY of grid, cpu, and slots to mount as much tank as you wish.
Yes, pirate hulls will be able to out damage Marauders (depending on fittings), but they won't be able to out tank them... or reposition as quickly on the battlefield for the same amount of cap expenditure.
In Incursions I'm pretty sure the role of webber will go to other ships, while Marauders assume the role of highly mobile and hard hitting snipers. Remember the 70% reduction in time for using MJD's allows frequent repositioning away from trouble. If you go this route you'll have a lot of room left over for damage application modules, and it's range bonuses allow using higher damage ammo at those ranges. Meanwhile you leap frog where ever you like on the battlefield (usually to either side of your logistics) while they chase you merrily around... until they switch to someone else. It will require some good piloting skills though, and being pretty heads up at all times. It certainly helps that NPC's don't scram. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
334
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:00:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:I don't really get what they're after with this.
In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.
In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.
In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.
In PvE:
Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.
Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.
Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.
Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.
TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament.
I mostly agree, just I think the paladin will have better projection than the nightmare now, also the paladin I think will have more cap and can easily be run in lazy mode (why I love my paladin), but will still do gank mode just fine. I think the optimal bonus is better than tracking for pve at least.
varg vs mach, well I think mach will still out damage and whatnot (zoom zoom!), especially since both already hit the point of why bother diminishing returns on gyros,TCs, and TEs.
vindy vs kronos, kronos gets worse as it is losing drone bay. I already have so many mag stabs and tracking comps, adding another one or two for a bit more tank doesn't do much for me.
I think this change would do fun things for the paladin and golem, and well nothing for the kronos or vargur  You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Shoppi Fox
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:01:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:i dont think all when not any of this goes into round 2 but anywhy i try to give constructive critic
first thing first !!! dont just slam in another x8 skill make it in the marauder skill or max x4
even another useless skill @ 5 is not an option when these ships not offer a SERIOUS bonus for the skilltime
this is just useless time and isk sink
now my two cents
pve point of view
but my suggestion would be bonus (((25% resists 25%local tank boost))) 25% damage bonus 25% tracking 25% optimal 25% falloff (25% exp radius / missile speed) (maybe +5% per level) would be worth it. (sounds overpowerd but isnt! u get like 1150 dps out of most marauders with resonable fitting out to 100km or 800dps out to 200km no tank needed with mjd bonus)
the damagebonus is quite crucial to be used. cause i and a lot of people i talked to wouldnt use this in null because thanks to the overview change 1 min is too long to get out of anoms before tackled. on a damagebonus u could consider using. risk vs reward again
The tractor Bonus should be brought inline with noctis range or mjd 100% per lvl of marauder so 100 for t1 120 for t2 bonus on salvage drones no extra high (drone bay of 50 min)
mjd sounds not toooo bad after thinking and talking about
smartbomb range would be awesome bonus
these would be good changes 4 pve
for pvp
why this PVE orientet ship should be viable in PVP a super isnt viable in PVE right or a (h)dictor
why taking away a pve ship from the game just to make it slighty useable (maybe) in pvp and not leave it a pve ship
other approach make it a pvp ship and dont think about pve so
no tractor beam bonus -> damage bonus (>50%) to make it viable to siege risk vs reward thing
dreads wouldnt go to siege if they would get no damage bonus on it
think about it a dread with 100% optimal bonus in siege local tank bonus and ewar immunity#
what would u do ?
cyno in closer and remote rep the **** out of attacker / pos guns
please rethink changes
there are alot of good points in this thread.
options imho
1 maybe second marauder hull 1 pve 1pvp
2 stay pve ship with all commitment
3 change to a pvp ship but then remove all pve bonuses and live with it that it wont be used alot
and some questions afterwards :
ewar immuntiy includes or not : defender neut/nos paint ?
why nerf this moon size sigged ships ehp ?
why it has to be pvp viable and when will my (h)dictor will have a pve niche
some changes read to me like the mackinaw getting a 100% scrambling range for each lvl of ancoring The last sentence is perfect
And yeah i go conform with the above
|

Zaxix
Long Jump.
225
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:07:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Shoppi Fox wrote:Danica Fox wrote:some changes read to me like the mackinaw getting a 100% scrambling range for each lvl of ancoring The last sentence is perfect I haven't lol'd at an eve thread in a while, but yeah, that last sentence is just about right. The changes are very interesting. Very different. Buuut... Bokononist
-á |

Aristash
Astral Projection Inc. Darkness of Despair
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:14:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Good rebalance dear CCP!
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
88
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:27:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Why on the love of God does EVERYONE want them to be Solo PvP or Fleet Fight specialized!?
Its a PvE / Small(medium) Gang Supporter! God damn it! |

Tanik Fera
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:35:00 -
[1049] - Quote
What if CCP took the opportunity here and made Hull tanking viable? Add hull rep bonus to the Bastion, increase hull rep. amount like they are doing for the other local reps in 1.1, add hull repair to armor rigs or new rigs etc. LOL WTB hull tanked Marauder! |

Mephrista
Dark Angel's Legion Nite's Reign
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:43:00 -
[1050] - Quote
This is my first post and seeing how I dislike posting on forums I hope you understand, and take to heart, how upset this makes me. To start this off, I should mention that I only have experience flying the Golem when it comes to Marauders but I have/had good fits with the Raven and the Rokh. Lastly I would like to apologize ahead of time if I offend with my opinions because you are seriously pissing me the [CENSORED] off.
If you want to drag the Marauder class into such a line as to where it is viable for PvP then the reworked bonuses must benefit both PvE and PvP. If the bonuses benefit PvP only then you are effectively [CENSORED]ing on the people who have spent time, thought and ISK into their creations over the years and that is not acceptable... not in the [CENSORED]ing least bit. And remember, time is interchangeable with life so when I say I have spent time doing something, what I really mean is that I spent some of my life doing it... and I don't like the life that I have spent [CENSORED]ing wasted.
So, the proposed bonuses would include a) damage projection, b) increased tank and c) being able to jump in 100km increments. I'll break this down into one line at a time:
-Would Marauders in PvP benefit from damage projection? Yes. -Would Marauders in PvP benefit from increased tank? Yes. -Would Marauders in PvP benefit from 100km jumps? Yes.
By "PvE" I mean L4s and I will explain my answers afterward: -Would Marauders in PvE benefit from damage projection? 99% No, not this way. -Would Marauders in PvE benefit from increased tank? No. -Would Marauders in PvE benefit from 100km jumps? No.
An explanation for my answer regarding PvE and damage projection: The only range issue Marauders have is reaching out to NPCs while using anti-ship Tech II ammo. In my case it would be Rage torpedoes. I overcome this by using an afterburner. With this being said, I need every m/s I can get out of my propulsion module and you're [CENSORED]ing with my base velocity... stop it.
An explanation for my answer regarding PvE and increased tank: I can tank any L4 with Tech II modules with little concern. With a few faction modules that little concern ceases to exist. The additional tank is worthless.
An explanation for my answer regarding PvE and 100km jumps: Most L4 NPCs are well within that range as well as most warp gates. Being locked into position also drags out mission times because I would rather have my afterburner on heading to the next NPC or warp gate. I have an additional comment about the Micro Jump Drive but will save that towards the end because with a minor tweak to how it functions I feel it has the capabilities that could benefit both PvE and PvP.
So, as it stands the score is 3:0 in favor of PvP, PvP wins by a landslide and PvE is [CENSORED]ing shat on. Congrats.
With that being said, the proposed idea from the players base referring to synergy between Marauders and frigates through portals doesn't benefit me in the least. If you want that then petition for a new ship. There is a neglected ***** called a Rokh that could use some groping so let the developers suck, [CENSORED] and fondle that hull all they want but leave my Golem out of this.
Now for my opinion about the Bastion module bonuses: -Resist bonuses? Don't need them.
-Increased local repair bonuses? Don't need them.
-Falloff and optimal bonuses? Not applicable.
-Missile velocity bonus? Not enough range gained for Rage, my current range is 38km. With bonus it would increase to 48km. Why would anyone using cruise missiles care? They already fly into the triple digits anyways. So, Don't need it.
-EWAR immunity? How about this, RAISE THE [CENSORED]ING SENSOR STRENGTH! Raise it to where a Tech II battleship should be. That suggestion has been thrown at developers for quite a while now, the Golem even has it's weak sensor strength mentioned in it's [CENSORED]ing description.
-Weapons timer? You mean to tell me that if I decide to use this abomination of a module on the last wave of NPCs to finish the mission that I will have to warp to my station only to [CENSORED]ing sit there and stare at it because I can't dock? You've got to be [CENSORED]ing [CENSORED]ing me!
-Weapon safeties? If it's being investigated then why even [CENSORED]ing mention it? Really? A multi-billion ISK ship is now capable of accidentally being CONCORDED? Stop... just [CENSORED]ing stop.
-No fuel for possible salvage space? Do you even play this [CENSORED]ing game? Seriously? This is the same circumstance as the sensor strength comment. People have been screaming that the Noctis makes salvaging the entire mission almost worth it and that this tractor/salvager combo is outdated.
-Physics IV? ...
-Energy Grid Upgrades V? A;lkdfjg;slgj;shlkjhadamnit!
Bonus bonuses... oh joy... -Drone Bay reduction? You let me keep two fleets of small drones, well thank you for that small mercy. My medium drones were rarely used anyways except for the rare instance that a cruiser jammed me.
-Target Painters? Well you did half of what we needed. The other half was increasing the damn hull bonus so Golem pilots didn't need three painters. This is the biggest joke yet. If you wanted to free up a mid slot for something then increase painter bonus to reduce the required amount of painters to two. And don't tell me that we don't need three. If you made such an ignorant [CENSORED]ing comment about webifiers not being useful against frigates then whatever else you have to say about gameplay doesn't mean anything. With three painters I usually one shot cruisers, with two painters it takes two to three volleys. Since most L4s are smothered in cruisers... I'll let you [CENSORED]ing figure out the rest. (Part II Below) |
|

Mephrista
Dark Angel's Legion Nite's Reign
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:44:00 -
[1051] - Quote
-Additional highslot? Why don't you sacrifice one of your precious tractor beams to fit it? An additional medium slot would work more for a ship that supposed to "Hit and Run".
-Micro Jump Drive? Here's the only half [CENSORED]ed idea I can agree with. If you want to make the Marauders special and have this module benefit both PvE and PvP then let the pilot have the ability to set its range in increments of 10km. So you can have ten different jump distances from 10km through 100km. Let the other battleships be stuck with the 100km default. That way PvE pilots can see a wave of NPCs at 70km, set the MJD to 50km and jump into their midst... perfect range for anti-ship Tech II ammo. Don't give the hull a bonus to MJD cool down, give the hull a bonus to MJD capacitor consumption because the things a capacitor hog. So there you go, jump in and "Hit"... if you survive the cool down then you get to jump out and "Run".
I thought I got away from this scenario when I quit playing DUST514 and their whackjob ideas but it looks like the mentality of how to fix things has infected the entire company. Instead of making small adjustments to the problem as you attempt to smooth things out, something else entirely happens. You get a pair of tongs and grab said problem. You then take said problem and dunk it in a vat of liquid nitrogen then beat the all holy [CENSORED] out of it until nothing is left but shards. Then you go bar hopping until the bars close and return to your shattered problem. You then attempt to manipulate it with your feet while blindfolded and listening to reassembly instructions from a half lobotomized, [CENSORED] chucking ape with a broken jaw all the while never noticing that it's speaking a dead language. Do you put your pants on first and then your shoes?
The most disgusting thing about this entire shenanigan is the fact that CCP paid you to brainstorm, paid you to develop, paid you to troubleshoot and NOW you're asking our opinions? Just how [CENSORED]ing stupid do you think I am? You're not going to scrap this [CENSORED] idea no matter how much I hate being [CENSORED]ed on because your boss has already invested in it.
And for the record, I'm sorely disappointed in our CSM for their lack of consideration for the pilots already invested in this.
|

Rita Torres
Miner Not Minor
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:57:00 -
[1052] - Quote
I like this ccp. But how about if we one up it to include a teir 2 t2 battleship using the tier 3 hull. But with 5 or 6 turret/launcher slots. |

Dave Stark
3390
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:11:00 -
[1053] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
so you're telling me, marauders will have sufficient active tank to tank a whole room of sansha with no remote reps for up to 60 seconds? because before you even consider pressing the bastion module in an incursion, the answer to that question has to be "yes" or it'll never be pressed, ever. especially when flying a ship worth as much as an incursion ship is usually worth.
that sounds balanced for other areas of the game.
having said that, unless you're planning on nerfing pirate hulls in to the ground nobody will fly a marauder in incursions anyway since the pirate hulls have superior damage bonuses from what i remember. |

marVLs
385
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:21:00 -
[1054] - Quote
I think concept is fantastic, i mean transforming ships etc. 
But yeah it's still no good for PVE and PVP to justify their price and training time.
All of them still have too weak sensors.
Golem problems are torpedoes (they suck currently, no one will choose them when we have awesome cruise missiles), and that target painting thing...
Kronos could be sentry platform.
Salvaging bonus should be buffed 2-3times or changed.
Without at least 30% damage bonus Bastion is not useful: - lvl4s? Most important gank and speed so machariel, nightmare, RNI - incursions? gank, ewar bonuses so pirate battleships - pvp? sitting in place, cant aplly damage in time cause your target will use speed and warp off
I think all that brick bastion thing have no place, maybe only WHs, but that neuts... and no one want to bring thousands of cap boosters into wh... In bastion they wont tank incursions, no need more tank for missions, not enough for pvp.
Give bastion big damage bonus, thats the most important.
And do something with MJD so marauders can choose jump distance
|

Gustav Mannfred
the bring back canflipping corp
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:27:00 -
[1055] - Quote
why making the marauders slower? even a nidhoggur is faster then a paladin or golem
they should keep theyr actual mobility, could be even better... i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183 |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
405
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:38:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Gustav Mannfred wrote:why making the marauders slower? even a nidhoggur is faster then a paladin or golem
they should keep theyr actual mobility, could be even better...
Silly question they are making them slower so they can do drag race with orca.  http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Gummi Worm
Blood And Sand Tectora
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:46:00 -
[1057] - Quote
bastion module:
I think bonus of falloff and optimal need + 30% instead of 25% because, kronos/vargur have some problem with range/dps, and golem can use cruise within 200km without losing dps.
Use heavy water or something like this, remember people use marauder for salvaging and need a lot m^3.
Instead 70% MJD time reduction , give -50% cap reduction / + 25% speed for afterburner, nobody wanna use MJD in mission |

May Wanderdriven
The Driven
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:52:00 -
[1058] - Quote
I really like that change besides the 'transformer' like thing. It gives me a 'shallow' taste that is there to seek 'broader audience' (if you know what I mean). If you want my opinion, get rid of it, make a huge ass gun come out of the middle or something and we're cool. cheers for the idea at any rate. |

Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:14:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Why on the love of God does EVERYONE want them to be Solo PvP or Fleet Fight specialized!?
Its a PvE / Small(medium) Gang Supporter! God damn it!
Edit: And i am also approving where the balancing lead us as whole, CCP dont let you misslead from some stubborn old/young veterans! Thanks.
I can only reply to this in the context of what I know because I fly it, which is the Kronos.
We are not looking for it to be a solo wtfbbqpwnmobile every ship should have a role that it fits well and in this case losing the web bonus is a massive nerf to the Kronos that actually removes most of its possible roles, talking PVE with the reduced drone bay and the removal of the web bonus you are almost forced to MJD away from the enemy frigate spawns to snipe the frigates before they can get under your guns, rinse and repeat until the frigates are gone then MJD back towards the larger spawns to shoot them.
For incursions no remote reps while in bastion mode and good luck fitting enough local tank to survive 60 seconds without external reps, not that it will be an issue because the thing that the Kronos did well slowing the enemy and applying its DPS well is now gone with the removal of the web bonus, it was its dual ability that made it a good ship to have in an incursion fleet.
For PVP in a small gang it wont be used as a brawler as there are far faster more agile ships that out perform it massively the best example being the Vindi which has the web bonus so is also very useful against small ships, but a blaster Talos could achieve the same or better results whilst representing a much smaller financial risk, greater speed, greater agility and smaller signature.
For sniper fits anything above 150 KM in range is generally not a good idea because of the probe mechanics and there are a great many fits that can apply good DPS out to 150 KM without making the ship immobile and presenting a very nice opportunity to get a nice 1 bil + kill mail.
I can see what CCP were aiming for with these changes but with the loss of the web bonus the Kronos loses what made it a good (not great but good) ship and less than half the ammo consumption of a Vindi is not enough to warrant using it anymore IMHO.
TL:DR Kronos needs the webs back to be good. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:30:00 -
[1060] - Quote
im thinking these ships need to be fitted with capital guns n take them down to 3 turret/missiles, make it so in bastion mode they are great up outside they are poor (weapon wise) |
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:47:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
I already use a blaster kronos, I can't see that it will always be slower, because that's a setup that is going to be highly improved when it can project its 1600dps further... edit : not quite 1600 anymore stupid drone... Bloody forums ate my post...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:47:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'
no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.
I already use a blaster kronos, I can't see that it will always be slower, because that's a setup that is going to be highly improved when it can project its 1600dps further... edit : not quite 1600 anymore stupid drone... Having more falloff does not allow you to project 1600 dps further, losing the web bonus means actually it will be worse, because you only hit that at 6.75km or below (Void L), and without the web bonus, your targets transversal just went up by 400%
People (not you) often fall into the mistake of quoting optimal plus falloff and the dps number from the fitting sceeen - I blame EFT... you dont want to be in falloff in a 'true' blaster boat, you want to be at optimal with the target as near to stationnary as possible- You want 90% webs, not a falloff bonus.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
171
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:03:00 -
[1063] - Quote
When I first saw Fozzie's post about them and the new cool theme to go with it, I thought to myself oh great, when CCP says cool theme. it usually means taking a ship that does very well in its current role, putting it in an ass backward role and ******* it up for that role as well. I would just like to say, thanks CCP for proving me right once again.
Essentially you are making a mini dread at a fraction of the cost and this is good how? To be honest, whats the deal with the MJD bonuses, are there seriously not enough people using your new mod that you have to stick it on T2s? The ships would have been a lot more useful retaining other bonuses such as sensor damp, web, tracking disrupt....stuff that really makes pvp nice. MJD may be a valid tactical module; however, they are pointless if you are fit to brawl in CQ with another BS. I would think your whole, "taking it our of one specific use and giving it other uses" would apply here as well. If you truly want that, then take the MJD bonus back off and put the other bonuses on.
The whole idea of the mini-dread seems **** all ridiculous to me. I was really surprised you guys actually went all out to make us think it was going to be a proper re balance. Most were thinking of minor/major changes to bonuses and such like the other ships were, not redesigning the whole bloody ship. I would suggest taking these changes and applying them toward a future NEW T2 BS class :p |

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:20:00 -
[1064] - Quote
The initial Idea is quite, amazing, but it is lacking more brain.
What's the point of Marauders with this? You won't use the bastion in PvE (neither missions, nor incursions) as the benefits are almost non-existant (especially for missiles). You won't use it in PvP either, as it screws your survivability (ironic, isn't it?).
Bastion sounds really cool, but for gods sake:
Give it an increase in DMG (12,5% / 25%), and an increase in damage application (Optimal/Falloff + tracking for turrets, Ex-rad for missiles) so that it becomes a worthwhile button to press for the inherent drawbacks (no movement, no remote assistance etc.). And for the love of god, remove that weapon-timer.. thanks.
TLDR: Damage BONUS FFS - marauders are allready a joke compared to pirate BS (although the costs are roughly equal while training time is much higher). Giving them more tank won't solve this issue.
|

PavlikX
You are in da lock
80
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:24:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Well... I am not sure that i like all ideas. Increase fitting possibilities - good MJD bonus - in general good i think.... Bastion module - i guess bad. It would be great if we can use some of it's bonuses without bastion module. But when this thing active this is not a marauder ship anymore - it is space turret Decrease mobility - bad. Decreased dronebay - bad (not main problemm anyway) 1 more med or low slot would be much much better than additional 1 high slot Sensors must be buffed to the T1 BS levels There must be 125% damage role bonus to free bonus slot to the something else. For example MWD or AB speed/cap usage/fitting bonus. Because MJD can be used in PvE with AB or MWD only to make fly to the gates and wrecks after 100 km jumps. Who will use it in solo PvP after that?
So, i would be satisfied with this bastion module in case we will have 125% damage role bonus and additional MWD/AB skill bonus. Additional med slot to the my favorite Palladin would be fine too.
Edit: Anyway, we need another T2 BS class. Two ships to each race as continuation of HAC line. |

Kikusama
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:25:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Looks good in general with 2 addendums: - 400-500% increase in DPS whilst in bastion mode will put these right between normal battleships and dreadnoughts; - they all need 90% webs.
Basically with a fleet of these you'd get what you'd get with tracking dreads and vindis, only a lot more mobile.
PvE wise this would make these preferable to pirate battleships, without really trampling all over their territory (if you want to blitz stuff you can still use the Mach for example, if you want to obliterate everything bastion up a Vargur).
Guns make the news. Science doesn't. |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
170
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:29:00 -
[1067] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
Curious about High Energy Physics, was there logic behind its choice?
If they are just skills required for usage then why not choose tactical weapons reconfiguration level 3/4 even if the bastion module is not gaining a per level bonus to it.
Perhaps even combine it with advanced spaceship command 3/4, this combination of skills would reinforce the skills roadmap to capitals.
|

Just Lilly
117
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:58:00 -
[1068] - Quote
+ A 200% increase in DPS and restore their original mobility
+ Add a MWD bonus
Troll suggestion: Give them a covert ops cloaking device  Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
142
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:06:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Why for the love of god is anyone asking for fuel usage in siege mode? Really is not necessary. As to damage bonus in siege, it would be nice to have something, but arguably you'd need to need tracking to counter it like on dreads in siege. 5000dps ships with battleship range and normal bat |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
598
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:08:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Only you guys could try to claim / rationalize immobilized, billion-isk ships as being "specialized for harassment tactics." This idea is beyond idiotic.
Siege mode is unnecessary for PvE since power-creep has already made ratting stupidly easy in just about any mostly-fit PvE ship. It has zero usefulness for PvP applications since nobody is going to pay a billion isk to play a game of "warp in at 100, siege, get scrammed, not-be-able-to-MJD-away."
I'm really confused about this whole thread. I checked an it's not April 1st. Last I remember reading, you guys were really set on nerfing high-end PvE setups-- when you nerfed dread / titan tracking, you specifically said that part of the reason you were doing so was to keep people from pulling in ridiculous income by ratting with capitals. These things will be overpowered for PvE and useless for PvP. Go back to the drawing board and come up with a concept for these ships that lives up to their class name.
e: And while I'm on a roll here, calling it a "bastion module" and making it use different skills from a siege module is pants-on-head ********. Make it require tactical weapons reconfig and give it a name that doesn't make it sound like a medium-quality Diablo item. |
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
201
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:11:00 -
[1071] - Quote
About warping and the bastion-module:
Currently, funny people can finish a siege cycle and if aligned/not bubbled/still moving warp out pretty fast. *pretty fast*
If you were to translate this to drifting bastioned marauders (align w/ mwd, bastion up) they can't be scrammed for the meantime and - given that you spam warp - should be able to exit bastion while instawarping with way beyond necessary warping speed of surely several hundred m/sec, which would render them nearly uncatchable without a bubble that way.
If I did not misunderstand, why do I suddenly see an ancient chevy with 4 punks in it, drive-by-shooting-scene. "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:21:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Shoppi Fox wrote:Danica Fox wrote:i dont think all when not any of this goes into round 2 but anywhy i try to give constructive critic
first thing first !!! dont just slam in another x8 skill make it in the marauder skill or max x4
even another useless skill @ 5 is not an option when these ships not offer a SERIOUS bonus for the skilltime
this is just useless time and isk sink
now my two cents
pve point of view
but my suggestion would be bonus (((25% resists 25%local tank boost))) 25% damage bonus 25% tracking 25% optimal 25% falloff (25% exp radius / missile speed) (maybe +5% per level) would be worth it. (sounds overpowerd but isnt! u get like 1150 dps out of most marauders with resonable fitting out to 100km or 800dps out to 200km no tank needed with mjd bonus)
the damagebonus is quite crucial to be used. cause i and a lot of people i talked to wouldnt use this in null because thanks to the overview change 1 min is too long to get out of anoms before tackled. on a damagebonus u could consider using. risk vs reward again
The tractor Bonus should be brought inline with noctis range or mjd 100% per lvl of marauder so 100 for t1 120 for t2 bonus on salvage drones no extra high (drone bay of 50 min)
mjd sounds not toooo bad after thinking and talking about
smartbomb range would be awesome bonus
these would be good changes 4 pve
for pvp
why this PVE orientet ship should be viable in PVP a super isnt viable in PVE right or a (h)dictor
why taking away a pve ship from the game just to make it slighty useable (maybe) in pvp and not leave it a pve ship
other approach make it a pvp ship and dont think about pve so
no tractor beam bonus -> damage bonus (>50%) to make it viable to siege risk vs reward thing
dreads wouldnt go to siege if they would get no damage bonus on it
think about it a dread with 100% optimal bonus in siege local tank bonus and ewar immunity#
what would u do ?
cyno in closer and remote rep the **** out of attacker / pos guns
please rethink changes
there are alot of good points in this thread.
options imho
1 maybe second marauder hull 1 pve 1pvp
2 stay pve ship with all commitment
3 change to a pvp ship but then remove all pve bonuses and live with it that it wont be used alot
and some questions afterwards :
ewar immuntiy includes or not : defender neut/nos paint ?
why nerf this moon size sigged ships ehp ?
why it has to be pvp viable and when will my (h)dictor will have a pve niche
some changes read to me like the mackinaw getting a 100% scrambling range for each lvl of ancoring The last sentence is perfect And yeah i go conform with the above
this is at the moment no rebalance its a new class and if u make a new class u maybe considering naming it somewhere else and introducing it wiht one of you new x8 skills and leave marauders and rebalance them.
like postet serveral time make this ships the "HIGHSEC-DREADS" and u have the Opportunity on bo to make it a PVP ship or even i dont want to say it loud create a second new ship class a Highsec (in between steppeing stone) Carrier
|

Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:22:00 -
[1073] - Quote
I dont understand why are you changing the marauders like that....
What you do is creating a small dread for pve, overpowered and really mad on the same level.
Just give marauders a little bit more sensor strength so that you are not be permajammed or down damped in missione while need 2min to lock a target. To remove web bonus and reducing the dronebandwidth + dronebay is not good. Just take one away.
Other changes to have more fitting opportunities is really good, specially the cap etc. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
598
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:24:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Also, by axing the web strength bonus on the Paladin / Kronos you are doing away with the one aspect of those ships that would have made them MJD-friendly-- the ability to fit closerange setups that could dispose of any short-range, scram-equipped tacklers (thanks to the webs) and then MJD away. A ship with no web bonus is just going to sit there and die while tackled by frigate hulls they can do nothing about. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:26:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Why some hisec mission runners don't understand that damage + tracking speed bonus for that module would be really bad?
You want more damage? Ok, tracking speed should drop dramatically. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:32:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Someone has pointed out a rather interesting and possibly disturbing set of conditions where a Vargur with the use of cargo-expanders and ASBs could potentially fit a cap-independent tank greater than any single sub-capital's DPS and maintain that tank for about half an hour...
If this is fine then, well, that's fine.
If it's not then two possible solutions present themselves, either add an exception so that ASBs aren't affected by the local repair bonus of Bastion or make it so that you can only fit one ASB per ship.
The former adds another kind of odd exception to the game which is both annoying and confusing. The latter breaks some already present gameplay and fits but may end up more balanced overall, not sure. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:35:00 -
[1077] - Quote
and look @ the skill time issue to bs
bs is 1 x8 skill
for marauders u need this to 5
marauders itself is x10 energy grid upgrades is another 5 u need @x2 and adv weapon upgr @ 5 is a x6 skill add another x5 skill
and u have more skill time than for a dread carrier Pirater BS or anything else subcap
for what 1/2 price and nothing else gets near half of it (dps tank projection jump mobility whatever)
actually a carrier is same price 1,5 to1,8x the damge alot more ehp alot more tank alot more logistic options
(all for null sec view)
pirate bs exceed in every point price (vindi is same i think rattler cnr and so on are like 50-66% price) whisch all do better @ lvl 4s incursions nullsec annos pvp(small gang fleet fights)
and hell yes someone posted a sentry domi that would beat a marauder while bastioned in projection and movement for the price of under 350 mill fittet!
i have done pvp in solo (not good) small scale (1x weekish) fleet scale 3-4 times a week hell i was even in the biggest fights
i have done pve in highsec lowsec npc null in drone sov space in angel sov space in blood space and guristas space over my ~8 years in eve and i cant think of anything that marauder shine in that status other than maybe small gang..for every activity in eve there are cheaper better and more speciallized variants....
but on the other hand it would ruin smallscale because intelchannels would fill with omg a marauder cyno afterwards rest is business as usual-
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:39:00 -
[1078] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
Well not entirely true.
1. The extra range is nice on the Paladin, the falloff bonus is kind of pointless on the Kronos(because it is mostly a rail platform) and overall I don't think the bonus is worth the loss in web strength, I would rather like to see that the active tank bonus would removed in favour of a damage application bonus(since it is fairly pointless for L4 and useless for PVE with RR). 2. The lost Sentry option is quite massive nerf for the Kronos, for stuff like Incs you use your full drone bay for sentry's, since you can utilize focus webbing and painting. 3. While it is not really required in Amarr space and on the paladin(because most stuff stays at range) it is fairly important for a sentry/rail Kronos to keep the dps up at closer range and a extreme important bonus for the hulls in Incrusions. 4. You can tank L4 just fine with them now, while fitting 4 damage mods and a T2 damage rig. If you didn't over tank the hulls before, it means nothing. 5. It only really hurts vs Guristas, then again ECM is the worst EW ever. 6. The dps they have with her drones is fine atm, the drone nerf will cost them up to 120dps and will hit the Kronos the hardest(surprisingly the worst marauder dps wise, since it is crippled by missing 2 sentry drones).
Overall if you want to do L4 reasonable quick the changes are bad, you lose dps, you lose the 90% web, you lose a lot of speed with the mwd(because you want to fit a mwd, not a mjd) and take even longer to switch systems, all for a massive active tank, that nobody should need and what prevents you from moving to the next gate while shooting stuff. For PVE with RR like Incursions or WH the changes are even worse, since the active tank stuff does nothing for you and you lose quite a bit dps, speed and one of the best ship bonuses for it.
Even for PVP I would rather prefer a bit more speed, another damage application bonus and a slight buff in the RR ability, to have a good alternative compared to the pirate BS, instead a slow active tanking brick, that screams bait or simple will be shoot last in a gang fight.
Well, dont know much about Kronos so you are probably right, but at few points you are wrong: 1) Guristas are not as bad with ECM, as sansha are with TD. Try flying a sansha mission in any turret ship - u will smash your head into keyboard (despite having a uber-pimped Paladin i fly Tengu for many sansha missions). 2) Not all missions can be tanked even in Marauders - the assault most notably or the blokade if u mess up spawns (which is often in this mission) - while my tengu can tank it quite easily. Also Dread pirate Scarlet mission is hard in Marauders because of the random dmg types in pockets. 3) Since i don't fly sentry drones I don't have an opinion on them, but a flight of medium drones is useless (they spend most of the time flying from target to target and being shot down in the process). 4) Web is a delicate issue, for Paladin it doesn't help much in PvE, i guess for Kronos it's different. It was a great bonus for PvP but since the ship can no longer move and is fairly useless in PvP i also don't see a point in keeping that bonus. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
600
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:41:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Here, because I like you guys and EVE Online and because I've done a lot of "marauding" in my day (albeit not in Marauders because they have always been terrible ships for PvP), I'll make a list of desirable attributes for ships that are "meant to operate behind enemy lines for extended periods of time." Maybe you can just pick some of these and roll them into a ship that will actually be useful for something!
- The reduced ammo usage + fitting flexibility that comes from Marauders' existing 4-guns / 7-highs layout
- Mobility-- this goes for speed and agility. If you want to do hit-and-run sort of work, you don't want to be flying a ship that handles like an oil tanker. NOTE: total immobility is even worse than handling like an oil tanker!
- Large cargo holds: when going on long deployments in hostile space, it's nice to have room for plenty of ammo, paste, anchorable bubbles, etc
- Services that can be provided to spacebros: fitting services to swap out burned-out modules, move drones into bays, etc can be invaluable when operating far from the nearest usable station
- Stealth / ability to move about unhindered: whether moving around a solar system discreetly in order to observe hostile movements, traveling through stargates with reduced risk of death, or bypassing gatecamps using a jump drive, enhanced stealthiness is always a perk when operating in someone else's playground
- General flexibility: when you're in the middle of a hostile region it's difficult to switch ships-- you have to work with what you've got on hand. As a result, you want a ship that's useful in a variety of combat scenarios. You don't really need a ship that epitomizes any one thing-- DPS, tracking, tackle range, mobility, etc-- but rather a ship that blends attributes so as to be useful in a variety of situations: it should have decent scan-resolution, good mobility, a flexible engagement envelope that allows it to fight without completely committing itself to a brawl, and it should be able to apply damage to a variety of targets even if it's raw DPS output isn't the greatest. Adaptability is king when you're operating 30 jumps from the nearest dockable station and need a ship that can be useful whenever you choose to log in and whoever you end up flying with. Your proposed Marauders are basically the exact opposite of what I just described. |

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:44:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Why some hisec mission runners don't understand that damage + tracking speed bonus for that module would be really bad?
You want more damage? Ok, tracking speed should drop dramatically.
I can live with that. works with the MJD bonus too. MJD out, and snipe the bastards. As it stands these changes do **** all for people that run lv4 missions, which are most marauder users, to be fair. |
|

Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:45:00 -
[1081] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Sounds like a terrible idea. Couldn't you just make it so that it can't be done within 2.5km of stations or stargates? You should never have to turn safety off in hisec if you are a law abiding pilot.
|

Iree
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:46:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Guys please do NOT think this is a solo boat, consider the ships in at least pairs, who hopefully have the forsight to MJD apart from each other while still being in range of each other. This essentially makes them immune to tackle frigs as you can just blap them off the other ship while they do the same for you, you dont need to have a 90% web if you have someone covering you from a distance where transversal is not an issue. Being EW immune makes this impossible to stop or mitigate. Just stay in Bastion mode and tank while killing all tackle.
Secondly this is definitely small gang vs. small gang stuff, obviously this wont work against dreads or massive alpha blobs. But against most other groups, unless they have very heavy tackle, there is really nothing they can do to pin you down very well. Even with heavy tackle, thats going to be slow enough to just MJD out of its range.
Honestly these changes seem OP if anything. |

Laura Belle
Leverage Industries Wonder Kids
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:48:00 -
[1083] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
you get a bonus for target painter. for torps (especially) and cruise missiles its pretty much an immediate boost in dps. you want to change it to passive explosion radius bonus? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:53:00 -
[1084] - Quote
I think that the biggest probing stone of ship's balancing is not "What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say? |

Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:57:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Kikusama wrote:Looks good in general with 2 addendums: - 400-500% increase in DPS whilst in bastion mode will put these right between normal battleships and dreadnoughts; - they all need 90% webs.
Basically with a fleet of these you'd get what you'd get with tracking dreads and vindis, only a lot more mobile.
PvE wise this would make these preferable to pirate battleships, without really trampling all over their territory (if you want to blitz stuff you can still use the Mach for example, if you want to obliterate everything bastion up a Vargur).
That much of a increase is too much, 50-100% would be more then enough. |

Laura Belle
Leverage Industries Wonder Kids
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:59:00 -
[1086] - Quote
gotta say, i'm glad i didn't train for a marauder.
for me much of the charm of the marauder was in the combo of web+resists+rep bonus. this "don't get any closer!" combo is now changed for "stay 30 km from me and be fine"
the web is especially needed IMO as for the bastion makes you completely immobile. I'd replace the tracking for this at least on 1 of the ships
also i dont like the line up for range damage tracking for all ships.. no differences rather then the gun type? *how about web/ tracking / extra damage to split between the 3? (just an idea) |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Laura Belle wrote:gotta say, i'm glad i didn't train for a marauder.
for me much of the charm of the marauder was in the combo of web+resists+rep bonus. this "don't get any closer!" combo is now changed for "stay 30 km from me and be fine"
the web is especially needed IMO as for the bastion makes you completely immobile. I'd replace the tracking for this at least on 1 of the ships
also i dont like the line up for range damage tracking for all ships.. no differences rather then the gun type? *how about web/ tracking / extra damage to split between the 3? (just an idea)
Extra-damage would be hilariously broken, especially on blaster-boats and would cause Marauders to step all over what seems to be CCP's intended role for Pirate Battleships. Also you can fit enough tracking computers on even the Kronos with these changes that blasters are a credible threat out to some pretty absurd ranges with the Bastion activated.
The web-bonus is a relic of the pre-Nano-Nerf days and probably long over-due to go away. I'll miss it a little but it's kind of hilariously over-powered as bonuses go and causes all sorts of problems in ship balancing between size classes. At a guess it's not long for this world on the Vindicator either. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
600
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:10:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:The web-bonus is a relic of the pre-Nano-Nerf days and probably long over-due to go away. I'll miss it a little but it's kind of hilariously over-powered as bonuses go and causes all sorts of problems in ship balancing between size classes. At a guess it's not long for this world on the Vindicator either.
You're ********-- pre-nano nerf, ALL T2 webs were 90% webs... web strength bonii have only become useful *since* the nano nerf. Furthermore they don't cause balancing problems between ship sizes-- they work as intended to make webbing-specialized ships a lethal threat to things that speed-tank, which is pretty much their whole gimmick. |

sudobaal theblooded
HemaRoidal Rampage SteRoid.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:11:00 -
[1089] - Quote
this looks promising.. looking forward to trying it out, 
but, the tractor beam bonus needs to be buff to some degree atleast with the noctis at lvl 5 plus t2 tractor beams you get some 96 km range.. on the marauders you get close to 48, and with the extra range added to the missiles its gonna be even further out the wrecks are for Golem pilots. and also all othere maraduer pilots.
But i can see a good use for them HS pos bash with a good fleet of these. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
600
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:15:00 -
[1090] - Quote
sudobaal theblooded wrote: But i can see a good use for them HS pos bash with a good fleet of these.
What are you talking about? These things will be torn to bits by any decently-fit POS: they can't be remote repped while in siege and can't tank enough DPS locally to rep against a POS even with their tanking bonuses... even dreads can't tank intact deathstar POSes! Oh, and they don't do any more DPS than a normal battleship either. Other than these shortcomings, yeah, they're gonna make great POS-bashers... |
|

Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights S I L E N T.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:15:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Laura Belle wrote:gotta say, i'm glad i didn't train for a marauder.
for me much of the charm of the marauder was in the combo of web+resists+rep bonus. this "don't get any closer!" combo is now changed for "stay 30 km from me and be fine"
the web is especially needed IMO as for the bastion makes you completely immobile. I'd replace the tracking for this at least on 1 of the ships
also i dont like the line up for range damage tracking for all ships.. no differences rather then the gun type? *how about web/ tracking / extra damage to split between the 3? (just an idea) Extra-damage would be hilariously broken, especially on blaster-boats and would cause Marauders to step all over what seems to be CCP's intended role for Pirate Battleships. Also you can fit enough tracking computers on even the Kronos with these changes that blasters are a credible threat out to some pretty absurd ranges with the Bastion activated. The web-bonus is a relic of the pre-Nano-Nerf days and probably long over-due to go away. I'll miss it a little but it's kind of hilariously over-powered as bonuses go and causes all sorts of problems in ship balancing between size classes. At a guess it's not long for this world on the Vindicator either.
I dont think so, as you lose all your mobility for the extra dps. Also keep in mind that you are now restricted to only light drones instead of the bigger bandwith that these ships used to have. Some dps compensation would be nice. |

Shoppi Fox
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:25:00 -
[1092] - Quote
These changes took weeeks so with all the feedback they would take more weeeks to reiterate completely so i dont think any pointwill change drastically . They have a lot of work 4 winter addon to do so letz hope they wont brake any other ship class this much
I already regret skilling 4 marauders and blops t3s and the other long term **** because when im done skilling it its a matter of less time spend skilling these change to someting else
In around 6 month my super alt is ready letz see if those are something else till then and. i neeed 12345678 new skills and new things to do with it....
This game is a long term thing due to its "LVL UP" thingi but changes stab u in the back if ur unlucky
I'm not telling to quit but i will farm for a new char with a bad name i cant change from the char bazar just to stay in the game which is not the way many would think of the game to be played i think
Until every pve ship is a pvp ship with a possible use in pve and the sandbox is broken to a degree its no longger a sb |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
202
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:28:00 -
[1093] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:"What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say?
Atm: *Phew, could've been actual battleships* "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:30:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:hmskrecik wrote:"What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say? Atm: *Phew, could've been actual battleships*
this makes me loaugh hard! and its the truth too ^^
|

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
142
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:31:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Someone has pointed out a rather interesting and possibly disturbing set of conditions where a Vargur with the use of cargo-expanders and ASBs could potentially fit a cap-independent tank greater than any single sub-capital's DPS and maintain that tank for about half an hour...
A Vargur can already do that. 2 XL-ASB, 2 Invulns and two T2 resist rigs already gives you over 2000dps tank if you have a damage control. Chuck in a pair of boost amps and that's approaching 4k dps. It's going to be an utter monster with this planned Bastion module, it'll be out tanking Siege/Triage Dread/Carriers but with significantly less buffer. Golem is even more insane due to extra mids.
ASBs really, really need to be locked to only being allowed a single one fitted. Either that or make the Anciliary Armour reps not be locked down to a single one. The Paladin and Kronos can't even get close to the tank the Vargur and Golem can pull off. |

Ralina Foley
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:38:00 -
[1096] - Quote
These, uh, sound like mini-dreadnaughts...minus the tank, potential damage, and applications. Honestly, it just made them even more PvE, and it still seems like faction is the better way to go. I mean, what are you going to do? Bring a ship that cost as much as a dreadnaught(but isn't) to a PoS bash? Nope. Perhaps WHs will use 'em, or missioners, but even then.... That is a miniscule market to be sending a rebalance at. Nullsec or lowsec is just asking for a hotdrop. Heck, a few nados or even catalsyt shooting through a hefty resist hole is asking to get ganked for missioners. 1 minute is more than enough to be scanned and properly ganked, even if you see the probes launch. And lacking the capacitor of a capital means this ship is lunch for a Baalghorn. This is just stupid.
On a different note, the Golem will be a beastly PvE ship. The bonus to the MJD is useless in this case. Who has EVER needed to warp 100km in this missions? I can think of only a few instances and even then, it'd be once or waaaay longer than the normal cool-down time, so still no point. Leave Bastion mode at home though, or you WILL get ganked. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
202
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:39:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Someone has pointed out a rather interesting and possibly disturbing set of conditions where a Vargur with the use of cargo-expanders and ASBs could potentially fit a cap-independent tank greater than any single sub-capital's DPS and maintain that tank for about half an hour... A Vargur can already do that. 2 XL-ASB, 2 Invulns and two T2 resist rigs already gives you over 2000dps tank if you have a damage control. Chuck in a pair of boost amps and that's approaching 4k dps. It's going to be an utter monster with this planned Bastion module, it'll be out tanking Siege/Triage Dread/Carriers but with significantly less buffer. Golem is even more insane due to extra mids. ASBs really, really need to be locked to only being allowed a single one fitted. Either that or make the Anciliary Armour reps not be locked down to a single one. The Paladin and Kronos can't even get close to the tank the Vargur and Golem can pull off.
This. A Vargur has - without extenders and stuff - only some 10k shields, and a single ASB use (like you could fitting a vargur with 1400s, 2 TCs, SeBo and Mjd) boost you ~4k each pulse. Imagining a scenario being shot by a dread, you could tank him probably, but odds are you're bleeding armor+structure like no tomorrow.
On the armorside, looks a lot more smooth. Given links, you can realise some 18k buffer with asingle plate - while the 4k rep output of your favored AAR or C-type repper (which I'd believe would be worth the investion) only pushes your armorbar for a quarter, making it easier on reactiontimes. Repoutput is on a slightly lower, much more capefficient level though. (targeting plate, LAR, DCU, EANM, explorig as tank, 3 lows/2 mids for damagemods)
"When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:42:00 -
[1098] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:hmskrecik wrote:"What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say? Atm: *Phew, could've been actual battleships* Nice. I'm always for good laugh. Now give them 5th gun, siege-dps-bonus, tracking bonus, full drone bay, and whatever else have been proposed here and tell me please, how hard you're laughing this time? |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
142
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:44:00 -
[1099] - Quote
I think the 30% resist bonus from the Bastion will give them a fairly notable buffer. I'm not sure how to work out the exact maths though, but based on the fact they don't have a stacking penalty with anything bar a DC2 for shield fits I'd expect to see over maybe 85-90% resists perhaps? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:46:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:You're ********-- pre-nano nerf, ALL T2 webs were 90% webs... web strength bonii have only become useful *since* the nano nerf. Furthermore they don't cause balancing problems between ship sizes-- they work as intended to make webbing-specialized ships a lethal threat to things that speed-tank, which is pretty much their whole gimmick.
Personal abuse not withstanding you are mostly incorrect, the bonuses were increased when the Nano-Nerf went into effect way back in 2008 but it was basically a line-item at the time. A sort of "oh, yeah, that". The arguments from the time still apply to current 90% webs.
The other part of this is that these aren't on specialized ships, they're on high DPS, fairly tanky Battleships. The Vindicator has the highest DPS of any ship in the game right now and a 90% web bonus to go with it. This hardly makes it a "specialized and lethal" threat, it's a threat to anything within web-range and if you do get in web range you'll only be there as long as it takes 11 effective turrets of blaster damage (and probably a full flight of Sentries) to peel back your hull.
This is hardly a "whole gimmick". You can, in most situations, achieve a similar effect but at greater trade-offs by simply fitting two webs or using two different webbing ships but this never reaches quite the level of ridiculousness that bonused webs do because of stacking penalties.
I think that if CCP didn't believe that the web bonus was over-powered they wouldn't be taking it off both of these ships and this supports the idea that it's likely going to be completely phased out of the game or relegated to crusier hulls either during the Recon rebalance or the Vigilant when they do pirate-cruisers. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:50:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Mr Floydy wrote: A Vargur can already do that. 2 XL-ASB, 2 Invulns and two T2 resist rigs already gives you over 2000dps tank if you have a damage control. Chuck in a pair of boost amps and that's approaching 4k dps. It's going to be an utter monster with this planned Bastion module, it'll be out tanking Siege/Triage Dread/Carriers but with significantly less buffer. Golem is even more insane due to extra mids.
ASBs really, really need to be locked to only being allowed a single one fitted. Either that or make the Anciliary Armour reps not be locked down to a single one. The Paladin and Kronos can't even get close to the tank the Vargur and Golem can pull off.
This. A Vargur has - without extenders and stuff - only some 10k shields, and a single ASB use (like you could fitting a vargur with 1400s, 2 TCs, SeBo and Mjd) boost you ~4k each pulse. Imagining a scenario being shot by a dread, you could tank him probably, but odds are you're bleeding armor+structure like no tomorrow. On the armorside, looks a lot more smooth. Given links, you can realise some 18k buffer with asingle plate - while the 4k rep output of your favored AAR or C-type repper (which I'd believe would be worth the investion) only pushes your armorbar for a quarter, making it easier on reactiontimes. Repoutput is on a slightly lower, much more capefficient level though. (targeting plate, LAR, DCU, EANM, explorig as tank, 3 lows/2 mids for damagemods)
I don't think the dread comparison even factors into things.
You could certainly alpha even a Tripple ASB Vargur off the field with enough Tornadoes (probably about 6-8 or the fit I saw) but the situation of contention is that a single ship can basically sit next to any other battleship in the game and soak DPS more or less until that ship runs out of ammo.
Obviously this doesn't apply to a drone-boat but I don't think "Deploy drones and go have lunch" should be listed as a counter to anything except boring level 4 missions :| |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
202
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:01:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You could certainly alpha even a Tripple ASB Vargur off the field with enough Tornadoes (probably about 6-8 or the fit I saw) but the situation of contention is that a single ship can basically sit next to any other battleship in the game and soak DPS more or less until that ship runs out of ammo.
All the current fits doing that normally have no mobility and/or tackle. Those marauders surely do not have mobility while tanking.
Also: Rattlesnakes currently can soak up another BS's or two's or three's dps all day. Don't know who would complain, as it surely doesn't kill you. A Tengu can be fitted to do exactly the same, yet the 100mns with small tank are the dangerous ones.
And lots of other Battleships (navy scorp, normal scorp, paladin etc. etc.) can all be fitted to tank multiple Battleships constantly, sometimes even while applying tackle. And all never got stated as problematic.
But for marauders to do that and ONLY that, it is.... "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

SOL Ranger
Jaeger Squadron
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:07:00 -
[1103] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system.
... PALADIN Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
GOLEM Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
KRONOS Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75)
VARGUR Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-25)
These are top of the line T2 Battleships, supposed to survive for long durations behind enemy lines yet apparently they are unable to replace a single flight of medium drones nor can they carry alternatives to them; These are ships supposed to have unsurpassed longevity.
To follow the design context of Marauders I need to urge you to scrap the idea of these minuscule drone bays; These ships should be able to carry multiple(4+) flights of drones. Going down from the currently already very small drone bays to even smaller feels like a huge step in the wrong direction, even if the proposed bandwidth is set in stone please consider larger drone bays.
What I'm asking for is something similar to this:
PALADIN Drones (bandwidth / bay): 55 / 220
GOLEM Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45 / 180
KRONOS Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 300
VARGUR Drones (bandwidth / bay): 65 / 260
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:07:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: All the current fits doing that normally have no mobility and/or tackle. Those marauders surely do not have mobility while tanking.
Also: Rattlesnakes currently can soak up another BS's or two's or three's dps all day. Don't know who would complain, as it surely doesn't kill you. A Tengu can be fitted to do exactly the same, yet the 100mns with small tank are the dangerous ones.
And lots of other Battleships (navy scorp, normal scorp, paladin etc. etc.) can all be fitted to tank multiple Battleships constantly, sometimes even while applying tackle. And all never got stated as problematic.
But for marauders to do that and ONLY that, it is....
My issue is less with the whole "tank another BS" thing and more that it can do so completely cap independently for an absurd length of time.
As I said in the original comment though, this may not be an issue, either with ASBs or with the Vargur or Marauders.
You are certainly correct that there are better bait ships (I've gotten a small ear-full recently about how people keep biting on Bait Rattlesnakes in Null) and that isn't really my concern. I'm simply concerned that this could lead to less than desirable gameplay in some niche situations. I'm not claiming it's going to be super prevalent or terribly effective, just very very annoying for whatever poor solo pilots decides to try and kill the blasted thing.
At the end of the day it's up to CCP whether or not this is an issue, I've done my bit by bringing it up. They have more data than I have access too (especially about use-rates of ASB Vargurs I'm sure) and more time to devote to this than I can without being paid for it  |

Adwokat Diabla
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:10:00 -
[1105] - Quote
These will be:
-broken for pve, especially plexing, and probably whing -impossible for any small gang to break -medium/large fleets will just scram and probably alpha through any self-given reps
These just don't seem like a good addition to the game. |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
142
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:14:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Officer would probably get you close to 90% across the board but at that point we're out of the realm of theory-crafting and into the realm of "I have more money than I know what to do with and I am bored". Oh yeh, don't get me wrong. Never suggested it would be practical! :D
@SOL Ranger - Agreed on more drone space. Seems a bit counter intuitive, I'm not going to object to only having 25mb bandwidth hugely, but not having the cargo for more is ********. |

Ralina Foley
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:20:00 -
[1107] - Quote
PvE, its a gank fest, with a stationary marauder watching the Tornados come in. In PvP, it'll be hotdrop o'clock. That is, if it isn't just overwhelmed to begin with. For the price, I really don't see it justifying itself. It won't have the buffer to live on the PvP field while trying to act like a mini dread. All in all, not too useful. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:22:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:energy grid upgrades is another 5 u need @x2
Important support skill.
Quote:and adv weapon upgr @ 5 is a x6 skill
Another important support skill. CCP, allow us to train this to level 6. Pretty please.  |

Phinger
Trantor Mentalics
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:26:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Problem with a maruaders
1. Expensive just to get them at a reasonable missson equilavence with pirate bs, nor want to risk them in low or null 2. have little role in pvp with poor sensor strength, and thin tanks so can easily be alphaed off the field
So what has CCP done...."without" factoring bastion module at this point.
Negative a. they have nerfed there overall dps by reducing drone bays, they already suffered against pirate bs b. they havent changed any bonus for mission runners like tractor beam range or speed.....so best still to use a noctis trawling behind...some players are screaming for this to be even removed. c. they reduced the ehp, reduced their cap, even reduced their agility
pluses a.they gave was a new high utility b.improved the fittings a big plus for vargur and artillery c. and a MJD utility....which is debatable.....you jump 100 miles shoot stuff then you cant tractor the stuff you shot at range.
maybe i missed something here but they havent improved the ships in any meaningful way in their current role.
THE MJD isnt being used much so CCP thought hey give it a bonus and make this device useable and attractive....yeah bit plain. I have some BS I have tried MJD and I jump once....shoot stuff and being able to jump in 54 seconds...means nuthing to my BS. It suits some missions but again I point to ....well whats thepoint of my 48km tractor beam?
But ccp introduced these nerfs to counter what they wanted to broaden their appeal and make them grow into new role by this bastion module.
The Bastion module.
Its sounds cool, and it changes shape and it gives these massive tanking bonuses.....but YOUR static and you dont receive remote reps. So far I see no real reason to use it mission running in level 4s....already can tank ok in maruaders, will u se it in null or low sec? well maybe for level 5 missions or maybe DED complexes. Wormholes maybe.
So its looking very NICHE and not the broadening of its uses. It doesnt improve its pvp roles as players throwing around numbers at the moment its cost still really not much less than a dread. As for incursions.....not sure in bastion mode it would be able to tank beyond a vanguard site.....so it might be interesting having a all dps fleet now using local reps in bastion mode. but you wont probably be able to haul into a HQ or assault. and factor in the drone dps nerf as well.....again the ships feel less than a pirate bs.
....but please dont use a new skill and keep with it being a intro to dreads etc by using the current skill tree.
So lets all get past the oohhh and ahhh novelty issue here, I appreciate the thought CCP has given, but you have missed the mark.
Improve its current role dont nerf it to be less than a pirate BS in pve content.
Bastion- you have to either let it move,receive remote rep, but reduce the tanking ability and make it blap more
|

Nosum Hseebnrido
Beyond Hypothetical Box
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:31:00 -
[1110] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:[list]
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Why not hull? |
|

Cyrus Mierre
The Forsaken Legion
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:38:00 -
[1111] - Quote
I must say, I think people seem to have the wrong idea about the mjd in missions. They seem to claim that you would mjd 100km away from the ships, blow them up at range, then not salvage because of the 48km tractor range. Isn't that completely backwards?
If the npcs are on top of you, great! kill, tractor, salvage. The problem used to be the ships that spawned at range; these would be killed at range, then not salvaged (or done later with noctis). However with the MJD I would use it offensively; if npcs spawn 100km away then use the MJD to jump to within optimal range of them, kill, loot, salvage, then jump back onto the acc gate.
As far as I can tell, the MJD drastically reduces the need for both long-range ammo and the noctis, and allows the marauders to use their high-damage ammo almost all of the time (particularly paladin conflag) |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
962
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:38:00 -
[1112] - Quote
I think the bonus to MJD call for a tech 2 version of the MJD. The T2 version should be able to load scripts to jump 50km or 100km and it should have reduced spool and reactivation timer.
Also, there needs to be a visual indicator to show players when they can reactivate their MJDs again. Putting work in since 2010. |

bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
211
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:44:00 -
[1113] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote: -impossible for any small gang to break .
They are mini carrier. Bring neut.
Anyway, T2 battleship are meant for PVE. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:44:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I think the bonus to MJD call for a tech 2 version of the MJD. The T2 version should be able to load scripts to jump 50km or 100km and it should have reduced spool and reactivation timer.
Also, there needs to be a visual indicator to show players when they can reactivate their MJDs again.
This is precisely the opposite of what these changes suggest is going to happen.
bloodknight2 wrote:Adwokat Diabla wrote: -impossible for any small gang to break .
They are mini carrier. Bring neut. Anyway, T2 battleship are meant for PVE.
Half-right. The Marauders are primarily PvE ships and that isn't changing. The Black-Ops ships are going to be PvP focused though. |

Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:54:00 -
[1115] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system.
... PALADIN Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
GOLEM Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
KRONOS Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75)
VARGUR Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-25)
These are top of the line T2 Battleships, supposed to survive for long durations behind enemy lines yet apparently they are unable to replace a single flight of medium drones nor can they carry alternatives to them; These are ships supposed to have unsurpassed longevity.To follow the design context of Marauders I need to urge you to scrap the idea of these minuscule drone bays; These ships should be able to carry multiple(4+) flights of drones. Going down from the currently already very small drone bays to even smaller feels like a huge step in the wrong direction, even if the proposed bandwidth is set in stone please consider larger drone bays. What I'm asking for is something similar to this: PALADIN Drones (bandwidth / bay): 55 / 220 GOLEM Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45 / 180 KRONOS Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 300 VARGUR Drones (bandwidth / bay): 65 / 260 My thoughts exactly. The depth of the drone bays is a huge factor in running anomalies in wormholes, and having your drones all killed means you no longer have enough means of dealing effectively with frigates. Less bandwidth cuts into DPS, but less bay just screams needing to dock and refill the drone bay every 5 minutes. That is the exact opposite of having the ability to endure long engagements, which was apparently something Marauders are supposed to do.
An additional benefit of a very deep drone bay (lets talk 300 m3 or more) is that there could be cause to store a flight or two of combat utility drones for situation use, as well as a flight of salvage drones (how about some T2 versions able to salvage a sleeper BS or T2 hull?), so that even more versatility and utility can be afforded pilots while on grid, and not require us to MJD to escape scrams, then warp out to refill the drone bay. Combat utility drones are not often used as there are few reasons to tie up precious bay space with them, so why not extend drone bays instead of limiting them to at least allow the possibility?
I was going to propose making smartbombs more usable for clearing off close flying frigs, like asking for a +100% area of effect bonus, but I figure this is way too powerful, but who knows? At least it would provide a foil to the loss of drones and webber bonuses, and it doesn't conflict with that whole "Bastion" idea, what with it having strong defenses and an ability to defend itself from enemies great and small... |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:55:00 -
[1116] - Quote
no dev posts in a long time wondering what they think could we have a update please? |

Ammzi
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1415
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:58:00 -
[1117] - Quote
It is set in stone. 1.1 is about to be released so they won't be doing any changes till then. 3rd september is release date if you didn't know already. quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
244
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:07:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:It is set in stone. 1.1 is about to be released so they won't be doing any changes till then. 3rd september is release date if you didn't know already.
Yeah, except the title of the thread has the word Winter in it - these aren't going in Odyssey 1.1 "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
405
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:09:00 -
[1119] - Quote
" Two" way mode ship...
Well for a two way mode ship one mode is nerfed across the board former shadow of it self and 2nd is immobile tanked sentry gun.in other word there is no 2 way mode ship
CCP consider not nerfing ship mobility / tank in non bastion mode.
Do not "encourage" me to fly it how you want let me play this game.
I believe those are simple changes that can be make without any fuss and cover more of pilot / game playstiles. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
89
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:12:00 -
[1120] - Quote
I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
|
|

Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:16:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Drones have been mentioned a few times and it could be a good addition to these ships that they have the 25-50 bandwidth of a non-drone-focused BS and then an increased drone bay of 100-125. The bandwidth puts a limiter on the drone DPS but the increased bay gives more survivability and ability to bring along more drones. I would consider giving at least 75 bay to a ship with 25 bandwidth and at least 125 bay to a ship with 50 bandwidth.
|

Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1195
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:17:00 -
[1122] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
What can you expect from people  |

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:18:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
I like changes.
What I don't like or changes that completely miss their mark. None of this is going to make marauders used more in PVP, and in terms of PVE it's actually a downright nerf. Loss of drone DPS and loss of webs is less applied damage, more tank is all fine and dandy, but if you couldn't tank everything in your marauder already anyway you were doing it wrong. Even the MJD 'mobility' is debatable, I'd probably end up fitting my paladin with both MJD and MWD/AB in order to move about in the missions. |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company WINMATAR.
219
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:20:00 -
[1124] - Quote
I was hillariously amazed when i saw that [WINTER] tag infront of the even more exciting Marauder topic.
And i shall not be let down, as you just introduced a Mini-Dreadnought.
But let's face it, don't stick with the Tractor-Beam rolebonus. It's plain terrible. If i would use those ships, it'd be for maximum killtime. I proclaim these things will probably outperform Pirate BS if used properly and the skillpoints backed up.
Let's see. Right now, i could fit up a Vargur looking like that:
[Vargur, Winter is coming] Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Gyrostabilizer II
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive X-Large Shield Booster II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
With current stats, this thing would deal 764 Barrage DPS over a Range what is 8.4 + 102. It would tank 345 DPS peak, 100 dps stable. It's sensor resolution is 258,7mm.
With the Bastion Module in place, this thing would have a peak-tank of 1134 dps. (+15% with odd 1.1, +100% with Winter, +30% shield resistances while in bastion). And because it's winter, this tank is cold. It will also get more falloff, like, 25%! not sure if this will be stacking penalized. If not, here comes a whopping +25km FallOff. If it is stacking penalized, alas, drop one tracking comp (save dem ISK!), fit another sensor booster. Which leads to the next thing. The Vargur will get roughly 70% raw sensor strength. Which will translate into 441 Scan-Resolution. With a 3rd Sensor Booster you're looking at 592 Scan-Resolution.
How will this look live?
Warp into mission. Check location of accel-gate, check location of pirates. If suitable, immediately go Bastion, Blap the stuff you can for 60 seconds, drop out of bastion, align towards your bounce-spot for the gate (You know, like, go into an angle that will place you 100km off the accel-gate, roughly), hit MJD, boosh, 5 seconds later you're sitting 100km off all those little frigs which were just around you, lock them up with 441/592 scanres and blap-the-living-sht-out-of-them. Stay at this spot until pocket is clear, drop bastion, MJD towards Accel-Gate, activate, Rinse and Repeat. You won't even need your stupid drones, i mean, for what?
Also, keep in mind that this thing will do this to EVERYTHING. They will NOT get tracking-disrupted by Blood or Sansha Rats. They will not get Sensor-Damped by Serpentis Rats. They will not get ECM'd by Guristas Rats. They will just be there. Blappin'.
What will i do?
Well, i will totally inject that damn Marauder-Skillbook on my alt now and prepare for Vargur-Madness.
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:24:00 -
[1125] - Quote
so when in bastion mode does it get bonuses from warfare links? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:28:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:so when in bastion mode does it get bonuses from warfare links?
Should, though most link bonuses are subject to normal stacking-penalty rules for their bonus type, so 2 Invuls and then a resist link doesn't get you much. |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company WINMATAR.
219
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:28:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Oh yeah, keep in mind, the bastion module will give Shield-Boost-Bonus even to those Armor-Hulls. Hello there, Shield Kronos! |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
90
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:37:00 -
[1128] - Quote
My first Charakter where Born 2003 with some Several new starts (accountwise) and one thing was the same until ... 2010 or so then something Strange happens people start complaining about everything, especially New stuff but the old Classic "Adapt or die" get more and more downhill.
I accept that 50 m3 Dronebay is to low, i also accept that they are kinda meh about PvP.
*rant on But seriously get your lazy Ass Up and try to adapt, hell this is only a first preview and >most< comments are only
- More DPS - More Speed - More PvP - More Large Fleet Fight Surviability - More of the same
- Less PvE - Less small Gangs - Less Skills (lazy bastards, learn that Skill and shut up 120 days for a Ship but 20 Days for the main funtion is a no go?!)
- And NOTHING NEW, we dont like Adapt or die, anymore.
*rant OFF
CCP involves the Community and that is the thanks?
|

Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:37:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Awesome. The last three months of training for my pirate faction battleship have been made obsolete!! Guess I'll be letting my rattler go for a shiny Kronos. Time to start all over in gunnery skills!!... sighh... |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:44:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:I was hillariously amazed when i saw that [WINTER] tag infront of the even more exciting Marauder topic.
And i shall not be let down, as you just introduced a Mini-Dreadnought.
But let's face it, don't stick with the Tractor-Beam rolebonus. It's plain terrible. If i would use those ships, it'd be for maximum killtime. I proclaim these things will probably outperform Pirate BS if used properly and the skillpoints backed up.
Let's see. Right now, i could fit up a Vargur looking like that:
[Vargur, Winter is coming] Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Gyrostabilizer II
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive X-Large Shield Booster II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
With current stats, this thing would deal 764 Barrage DPS over a Range what is 8.4 + 102. It would tank 345 DPS peak, 100 dps stable. It's sensor resolution is 258,7mm.
With the Bastion Module in place, this thing would have a peak-tank of 1134 dps. (+15% with odd 1.1, +100% with Winter, +30% shield resistances while in bastion). And because it's winter, this tank is cold. It will also get more falloff, like, 25%! not sure if this will be stacking penalized. If not, here comes a whopping +25km FallOff. If it is stacking penalized, alas, drop one tracking comp (save dem ISK!), fit another sensor booster. Which leads to the next thing. The Vargur will get roughly 70% raw sensor strength. Which will translate into 441 Scan-Resolution. With a 3rd Sensor Booster you're looking at 592 Scan-Resolution.
How will this look live?
Warp into mission. Check location of accel-gate, check location of pirates. If suitable, immediately go Bastion, Blap the stuff you can for 60 seconds, drop out of bastion, align towards your bounce-spot for the gate (You know, like, go into an angle that will place you 100km off the accel-gate, roughly), hit MJD, boosh, 5 seconds later you're sitting 100km off all those little frigs which were just around you, lock them up with 441/592 scanres and blap-the-living-sht-out-of-them. Stay at this spot until pocket is clear, drop bastion, MJD towards Accel-Gate, activate, Rinse and Repeat. You won't even need your stupid drones, i mean, for what?
Also, keep in mind that this thing will do this to EVERYTHING. They will NOT get tracking-disrupted by Blood or Sansha Rats. They will not get Sensor-Damped by Serpentis Rats. They will not get ECM'd by Guristas Rats. They will just be there. Blappin'.
What will i do?
Well, i will totally inject that damn Marauder-Skillbook on my alt now and prepare for Vargur-Madness.
yeah those 764 barrage dps would apply at 8,4km to explosive weaks and on mentiont 100km these are ~400 dps
evil... blap blap
with a domi with only 5 garde 2 (no ammo) u can reach out to 90 km with 3 dda with 755dps alle the range not loosing a single dps hell just use bouncer @ 139 km with 611 dps just sentrys nothing else
a cnr does 1123 dps @ 251 km
hell even a rokh does 650 ish dps on 74+55 thats a t1 ship without bling and would put those blap to shame...
thats without bastion super bonus btw machariel @ current state 8,6+106 with barrage @ 863 dps using barrage and 4 fac gyros 2te 2 tc
|
|

Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:50:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:My first Charakter where Born 2003 with some Several new starts (accountwise) and one thing was the same until ... 2010 or so then something Strange happens people start complaining about everything, especially New stuff but the old Classic "Adapt or die" get more and more downhill.
I accept that 50 m3 Dronebay is to low, i also accept that they are kinda meh about PvP. [...] - And NOTHING NEW, we dont like Adapt or die, anymore.
*rant OFF
CCP involves the Community and that is the thanks?
The adaptation is not that hard a concept to understand, but the ability to adapt based on the new concept could be a touch more polished. Hence why I am in favor of the changes as long as some anti-frig tactics can be agreed upon, regardless of the method. And this goes for both PvE and PvP scenarios, as both are often intertwined, highsec or no.
One warp scrambler and your billion ISK hull is worthless seems like a rather large flaw, and removing web bonuses, as well as drastically cutting drone bay sizes just feeds into that one serious vulnerability. If I can't use this for PvP, I would not care, as I am more of a PvE person at this time. I would not use a T2 hull for PvP in most cases, anyhow, as I prefer T1, as the loss vs. enjoyment is more cost effective. The mistake is thinking PvE doesn't often result in PvP scenarios. I mean, for mission hubs, all you have to do is combat probe all the Marauders and they are the new favorite victim of can flippers. Kinda kills that entire roll, being unable to move for 60 seconds at a time, as someone makes off with your mission objective item while you are stuck waiting to move again. |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company WINMATAR.
219
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:57:00 -
[1132] - Quote
A Dominix is powerful, yes, but if flying against Guristas / Serpentis you end up severly crippled with your locking capabilities and your sentries start randomly firing onto the flock (focus fire doesn't really work).
A CNR will do this dps, but with cruises, which will apply damage pretty well onto battlecruisers and probably even cruisers, but turrets apply their damage pretty well onto anything with low transversal. Which all the ships will have, because they're flying towards you. It will also get issues when jamed or sensordamped.
A Rokh is pidgeonholed into Kin/Therm. Also, TD will screw it.
A Machariel is currently overpowered in regards of Falloff. Expect this to be changed. Also, TD will screw it.
Also, That Vargur can be run with 1400mm Guns with ease. Which will then result in Faction-Ammo DPS of 741, projected over 42+123.
Keep telling yourself that there are better alternatives. As it stands now, the Vargur will become one hell of a PvE-Ship. And i haven't rolled the numbers on Rail-Kronos and Paladin yet. And i can see a Golem being incredibly powerful, too. Cause it will probably be just like your CNR, but with E-War immunity.
|

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:00:00 -
[1133] - Quote
Quote:Lephia DeGrande wrote: My first Charakter where Born 2003 with some Several new starts (accountwise) and one thing was the same until ... 2010 or so then something Strange happens people start complaining about everything, especially New stuff but the old Classic "Adapt or die" get more and more downhill.
I accept that 50 m3 Dronebay is to low, i also accept that they are kinda meh about PvP. [...] - And NOTHING NEW, we dont like Adapt or die, anymore.
*rant OFF
CCP involves the Community and that is the thanks?
i-¦m normally not so much involved but think about u want to buy a new car and like it alot
which has less horsepower less speed less seats consumes more fuel then ur old and only 3 wheels but get a cool locking/sounding exhaust and that for exact the same price -and u have to go back to driving school for 1 month) and theres no option to keep ur old car what would u do
just buy another car or be angry but dont buy it again
and marauders where in no means op so that those nerfs are justified |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:01:00 -
[1134] - Quote
I fully agree that this (awesome) Idea need a hell of polishing, but just made it simply Super Soloable with super Web and massive Drones are just no Solution for a MMO driven gameplay, Face it the days of Solo End Content PvE MUST END NOW! |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
169
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:05:00 -
[1135] - Quote
At first I wasn't too bothered about the drone nerf on these, as I mostly just use salvage drones, and rarely I'll pull out light combat drones, so 50m3 is all I really need. But yeah, in the era of drones pulling more aggro in PvE, I think at least the bay being doubled so that losses can be replaced is pretty important. |

Medarr
ZeroSec
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:08:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Lookin good I like the idea of a mini dread. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:26:00 -
[1137] - Quote
another issue is lock range no marauder gets 100km lock range
so a sebo is eating up at least 1 slot as we supposed to use it @ 100+ ish ranges |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company WINMATAR.
219
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:39:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:another issue is lock range no marauder gets 100km lock range
so a sebo is eating up at least 1 slot as we supposed to use it @ 100+ ish ranges
Your Forum-Fu is weak. Actually, the Vargur WILL have more than 100km of locking range. And even then, you'd just have to drop the Scan-Res Script of one Sensor Booster, and you're fine again.
Also, there are scenarios (mostly small to mid-scale), where the Vargur for example will be INCREDIBLY viable for PvP. The only thing getting dangerous here will be scrams (you have 3 mediums slots which can either be filled by 3 Heavy Neuts in Autocannon fit, or 3 Medium Neuts if 1400mm) and Alpha of 87k JUST FOR THE SHIELDS at their Range. Tornados will be usually in hard falloff here already. So you're looking at 20 Nados or so just to be able to go through a Vargur's shields. Which will then, if Crystal'd, recharge 4500 raw shield, which translates into 28k EHP every 4.25 Seconds. Which is 6600 DPS tank. For 9 charges. Which is 34 Seconds of Shield-Boosts coming until you run out of charges, which leaves your enemies a time-frame of 26 seconds to burn through your EHP before you drop out of Siege and MJD away cause you're not scramed, or get Logi-Love again at a resistance profile each normal t1 BS (except for Abaddons and Rokhs) is jealous at.
But that's just me, efting. And probably throwing into battle several times with Winter.
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:40:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Harvey James wrote:so when in bastion mode does it get bonuses from warfare links? Should, though most link bonuses are subject to normal stacking-penalty rules for their bonus type, so 2 Invuls and then a resist link doesn't get you much.
well if you can't rep it why should it get to benefit from links? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Kikusama
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:54:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Kikusama wrote:Looks good in general with 2 addendums: - 400-500% increase in DPS whilst in bastion mode will put these right between normal battleships and dreadnoughts; - they all need 90% webs.
Basically with a fleet of these you'd get what you'd get with tracking dreads and vindis, only a lot more mobile.
PvE wise this would make these preferable to pirate battleships, without really trampling all over their territory (if you want to blitz stuff you can still use the Mach for example, if you want to obliterate everything bastion up a Vargur).
Quoting myself and adding in stuff.
If you're worried about the huge DPS increase, give the bastion module a tracking penalty, so it can hit caps/supercaps and miss on smaller stuff.
Also, this might be a cool counter to supercaps, instead of dropping 50 dreads, drop 100 marauders, yes/no? With these things taking minimal damage from fighters/fighter-bombers, should be p. interesting 
LE: Better yet, drop the bastion module, make the siege module a non-capital module and make it fittable to Marauders with a decreased damage bonus (1/2 of what the damage bonus is on Dreads). Make it consume less stront as well when fitted to Marauders. No need for an additional skill. Cheaper counter to caps/supercaps than dreads, limited by the limited insurance payout.
Guns make the news. Science doesn't. |
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:00:00 -
[1141] - Quote
The Problem is without Logi the 50 Marauders would die faster then the 2-3 Supercaps you where aming, and please stop making the PvE King into a +£ber PvP Vessel. Its still a T2 Ship. |

Kikusama
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:01:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:The Problem is without Logi the 50 Marauders would die faster then the 2-3 Supercaps you where aming, and please stop making the PvE King into a +£ber PvP Vessel. Its still a T2 Ship.
Not to supercarriers or titans, remember the nerfs.
Guns make the news. Science doesn't. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:06:00 -
[1143] - Quote
If you want your quadrillion dps Monster wait for Black Ops changes, leave my Paladin alone! ;-) |

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
272
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:19:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Harvey James wrote:so when in bastion mode does it get bonuses from warfare links? Should, though most link bonuses are subject to normal stacking-penalty rules for their bonus type, so 2 Invuls and then a resist link doesn't get you much. well if you can't rep it why should it get to benefit from links?
Why not? Bastion mode is somehow interferes with incoming remote rep beams, but sensors and other electronic systems are fine. Links represent specialized superior management of ship systems, so work on communication channels. At least as far as fluff is concerned.
Mechanically links don't stack like remote reps do.
I'd personally love to see the bastion concept pushed further into it throwing a field that protected other ships the same way, so that the Marauder anchored a small fleet with superior defense. Base the projected bastion bonus off leadership skills.
I'd also love to see the opposite, where it had a series of offensive ae modules that threw web bubbles, neut bubbles, etc... Making it the center of an offensive front, and a bit more appropriate to the class name of marauder.
|

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
962
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:52:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Harvey James wrote:so when in bastion mode does it get bonuses from warfare links? Should, though most link bonuses are subject to normal stacking-penalty rules for their bonus type, so 2 Invuls and then a resist link doesn't get you much. well if you can't rep it why should it get to benefit from links?
Why don't apples taste like oranges?
Putting work in since 2010. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1400
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:08:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:These will be:
-broken for pve, especially plexing, and probably whing -impossible for any small gang to break -medium/large fleets will just scram and probably alpha through any self-given reps
These just don't seem like a good addition to the game.
after sleeping on it, i tend to agree with this one. the bonuses to resists and repairs are so over the top that marauders become the ultimate solo pve pimpmobile bar none, obsoleting all other hulls. in incursions they lose their role as web providers to the vindicator and are thus if not useless, then at least strongly disadvantaged. in pvp, their designed play style may or may not shake up the meta game but my guess is that players who can afford to pvp with a 1bil hull will not give up their mobility advantage for some range and active reps.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Elisheva Cohane
Les Ricochets
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:14:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Will you still need the racial BS skill to 5 for all Marauders, or will there be a reduction similar to Carriers?
|

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:19:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm? |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
962
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:23:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Kikusama wrote:Kikusama wrote:Looks good in general with 2 addendums: - 400-500% increase in DPS whilst in bastion mode will put these right between normal battleships and dreadnoughts; - they all need 90% webs.
Basically with a fleet of these you'd get what you'd get with tracking dreads and vindis, only a lot more mobile.
PvE wise this would make these preferable to pirate battleships, without really trampling all over their territory (if you want to blitz stuff you can still use the Mach for example, if you want to obliterate everything bastion up a Vargur). Quoting myself and adding in stuff. If you're worried about the huge DPS increase, give the bastion module a tracking penalty, so it can hit caps/supercaps and miss on smaller stuff. Also, this might be a cool counter to supercaps, instead of dropping 50 dreads, drop 100 marauders, yes/no? With these things taking minimal damage from fighters/fighter-bombers, should be p. interesting  LE: Better yet, drop the bastion module, make the siege module a non-capital module and make it fittable to Marauders with a decreased damage bonus (1/2 of what the damage bonus is on Dreads). Make it consume less stront as well when fitted to Marauders. No need for an additional skill. Cheaper counter to caps/supercaps than dreads, limited by the limited insurance payout.
I think the idea is to make them more appealing to the pvp masses, not more niche.
A 25% damage increase would truly make them a mini dread and it's not like they would be stepping on the toes of pirate faction battleships, because they can only do that damage in bastion (stupid name btw).
The real shame is that the increased mass makes then unviable for wormhole pvp :(
Putting work in since 2010. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
227
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:27:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm? If you're going to criticize their response time, perhaps you should go back through the thread. Go to the OP and click the blue dev tag. It will take you to the next dev tag and so on. They've already done quite a few things. Bokononist
-á |
|

Zaxix
Long Jump.
227
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:31:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
Complaining about complaining. How meta Bokononist
-á |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:34:00 -
[1152] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm?
Now I am not a big fan of the proposal but it is Saturday. I certainly don't expect any posts till Monday. |

EXIA MIKOSZ
Strike Birds Zero
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:36:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. I like this quick feedback thing. More please! swap tractor for something awesome
If you don't Use Tractor on Marauders doesn't mean they are useless for other Players Why many of you Crying about this Tractor Bonus?Its Small thing but very usefull for many of us As you Can See CCP like to keep this so Please..............
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2650
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:52:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Yo ccp, i know you sometimes feel the need to listen to player feedback. That's great and all, and though I too have felt the sting of feeling like I'm not bieng listened to (Blood Raider Naval Ship yard damn it! :) ) but this one time I'll say this: STAY THE COURSE.
You're trying to bring something new and interesting to a class of sub-capital ships that never been seen in this game before. Like you did with the loot spew/exploration mini-game and other things, you guys really need to stick to your guns. people tend to be very "reactionary" when you change something they think is mostly fine or that they benefit from, and you are seeing that reaction right here right now.
Keep up the good work. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:56:00 -
[1155] - Quote
The more I look at the idea the more it seems to me its a great idea hamstrung by being applied to the wrong ships and the wrong platform (marauders).
Its a perfect fit for the hyperion, rokh, maelstrom, etc. hulls - hyperion hull especially would finally get the kind of ability the hull looks like it was designed for, the golem for instance has so many issues with this kind of use.
Can be designed to better fit in with the skill train towards dreads than marauder skills are - which would be a good niche for these type of ships.
Can be priced at a level that would see them used more in PVP - typical marauder prices don't really lend themselves well to this style.
Can be given bonuses and abilities that better enhance the bastion mode to make them useful in both PVE and PVP without the effectiveness being reduced by working around the legacy implementation of the current marauder styles.
All in all seems like the idea would live upto its full potential better by being a new T2 line of battleships than as an evolution of the marauder.
IMO for marauders to live upto what they are supposed to be they need to be made to some extent modular - possibly that means Tech3 but I don't think they need to go to the extent of strategic cruisers i.e. only 2-3 sub-systems per type - the ability to have some granularity between PVP and PVE use in their bonuses is needed as well as the ability to compromise between sensor strength and ewar strength bonuses - along with some kind of overheating bonus/feature which gives them that hard hitting ability but without the capability to sustain it as per the description. |

Abdullah Bahdoon
Somali Initiative for Dialogue and Posting
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:05:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Great job regarding the TPs . As for the bastion module , I think it's ok as it is for now (no cap or fuel usage). Concerning the skill needed to operate it, 5x or 6x time multiplier should do just fine for a subcapital hull . |

Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
47
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:11:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm? the csm summer summit is just wrapped up, and probably the latter. I'd expect at best casual posts this weekend, or at worst, monday. |

Flyinghotpocket
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
170
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:13:00 -
[1158] - Quote
for 1billion isk and will not be getting remote reps. i want t2 resistances. DAMMIT |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:21:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
Complaining about complaining. How meta
Look, if someone lacks any self-reflection you have to point that loud out. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4565
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:24:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:hmskrecik wrote:"What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say? Atm: *Phew, could've been actual battleships* this makes me loaugh hard! and its the truth too ^^ Did you two actually read what he wrote?
If most of the changes people have vomited up as alternatives came to be you'd be dead in the above situation in anything less than another Marauder fleet. His point is that the "better idea's" being thrown around would make Marauders the defacto fleet doctrine of any large alliance.
And he'd be correct in that. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:28:00 -
[1161] - Quote
In general I like the changes, though I'm not sure such a drastic speed reduction was necessary.
I do have one suggestion (which may have already been mentioned; thread is too long for me to read it all right now): change the Paladin optimal bonus to a tracking bonus. The reason being is that these ships are likely to be used in small gang actions more than massive fleets, and the optimal range bonus' utility isn't very useful when the targets are up close (as they are likely to be if your marauder has to go in and tackle because your gang isn't sufficiently large to have a group of dedicated tacklers). Moreover, pulse lasers already have excellent range. While this would be increased by the bonus, please keep in mind that these are battleship-class weapons and have a lot of trouble hitting smaller, faster targets. In small gang combat, the ability to track becomes much more important than a range bonus that has no utility against targets up close. Sure, you could MJD out to range, but then you can't provide tackling or energy neutralization assistance to the rest of your gang.
As a final note regarding that, all of the other marauders get a bonus to tracking or its equivalent, so the Paladin would seem to be the odd man out in that regard. While diversity is good, when it conflicts with the intended role of the ship (as I understand it), then it may need to be passed up for a more conventional bonus. |

Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
23
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:35:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm?
Could be the weekend... and they're probably mostly at home. Life and stuff.
Add fuel. Every other module in the game similar to the bastion module requires fuel. Add fuel. Make it whatever you want, but add it and a fuel bay.
Also, don't decrease a skill time because it's inconvenient. Seige, triage, Logistics, Battleship, Marauders, Fleet boosting skills are all long. For a reason. Cause they're worth it. Add T2 Bastion when you get T1 bastion balanced, and leave it a long skill. Why? Cause it'll be worth it.
A slight damage increase while bastioned would be awesome too, but can't have everything, and as I understand it these ships are about projection more than raw DPS, though a DPS increase in the form of RoF does, to me, make more sense than an optimal or flight speed bonus.
All other changes on the marauders are very exciting. Keep up the Good work!
P.S. I want an Autobot symbol on my Kronos please :D The Law is a point of View |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
335
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:41:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm?
eh, its the weekend You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
101
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:43:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Hey Wrayeth, as a side note, can you imagine the havok Burn Eden would have inflicted on Null Sec entry systems with this proposal? A couple of bubbles and tackler/webbers at the gate, a couple of Marauders at 100km... the tears would be hilarious. 
LOL, yeah. Pookie and Co. would've loved it! (And those of us who weren't part of Burn Eden would've hated it. )
|

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:47:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Leskit wrote:Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Interesting radio silence from the dev side.
Are you disregarding the noise from the community CCP, or are you simply debating things internally atm? the csm summer summit is just wrapped up, and probably the latter. I'd expect at best casual posts this weekend, or at worst, monday.
Fair enough, cheers. |

Azriel X
Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:52:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:ur math is somewhat wrong and u are failing to realize that missiles are not turrets and they need time to hit the target. Not even talking about situation where your targets is warping away before your missiles hit him. Moreover at longer range most of players are shooting more missiles than its needed, eg when u are firing another volley of missiles when previous is still in space flying to target. If that first volley finishes target, the second volley is not going to another target but just flying into space doing nothing. If your missiles got 100km range with 10km/s and 10secs flight time, increasing speed by 25% will result in 12,5km/s speed * 10secs = 125km range If your turrets got for example 100km optimal and 100km falloff, increasing both for 25% will make your optimal 100km + 25% = 125km and your fallof 100km + 25% = 125km, so u will be able to deal full damage at 125km and half damage at 250km. Missiles cant do half damage at twice of their optimal since they dont have fallof. Your target can have 1 hp sitting at 1 meter above your missiles optimal and u wont kill him. And dont say word about tracking since turrets got tracking issues only if target is close enought while missiles got their issues no matter if target is close or far away (explosion velocity thing). U can counter tracking on turreted ship by moving at proper direction (for example away from target), but u cant counter low explosion velocity of your missiles.
This is why missles are dead... V_V
Although apparently rumors are going around about new missile weapon upgrades soon to come. |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria Here Be Dragons
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:54:00 -
[1167] - Quote
I think it's good first step in rebalancing those ships, I'd suggest to give missile boats an explosion velocity bonus.
But the really reall really important thing is to make the bastion mode only work in low/null sec, don't make highsec carebearing even more attractive than it already is. This could be a good thing to lure people in lower sec |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:56:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Some things I'd like to see looked at are;
A) An extra slot, a low for the Golem (at least) and maybe a mid for the others. My reasoning is that the Golem has the same maximum DPS as all the other Caldari missile Battleships and sacrificing a low for a DCII means I lose out on that damage and I would be better off sticking to a Navy Scorpion...It has a better slot layout, tank for days, and does the same DPS. Oh and it's faster so I can fit a prop mod and move around the field much more conveniently w/o a bunch of on the fly math. Yes I could fit a 4th BCU on the Golem but then the tank isn't as good as what I have now (unless I'm in transformer mode of course but why bother when base tank is enough the DPS doesn't improve at all or gets worse because of it?)...and I don't need to do tricks to keep doing the same job (or train Marauders V either...). For PvE the Golem tank is well more than enough now..
Just think you guys need to look into this a bit more.
B) Mass reduction, etc. I think all penalties need tied to the Bastion module and not to the ship hulls themselves. This means that players that use the hulls now can continue to do so without changing much but players that want to use the bastion module will gain the disadvantages and advantages of doing so as appropriate. This seems a lot more fair to the people that have trained these ships (and Marauders V) and use them on a regular bases and I doubt it would break anything for anybody else. |

Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
52
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:57:00 -
[1169] - Quote
My immediate thoughts
(1) Why doesn't the Golem have a damage bonus like all others? If cruise missiles do too much damage, than fix cruise missiles as this always creates unneeded arguing in feedback threads. Can we please just give all ships a damage bonus if for no toher reason than so we don't derail feedback threads so easily?
(2) Why does the Paladin have a capacity bonus? The other ships have a damage application bonus, see #1 as to why this is a bad idea. If the Paladin needs a bonus to capacitor due to large energy weapons, then just bake it into the hull numbers.
(3) I agree with the previous posters, why do these ships still have a bonus to tractor beams? This was an archaic bonus from before Noctis days and is no longer needed or wanted. |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:58:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote:I think it's good first step in rebalancing those ships, I'd suggest to give missile boats an explosion velocity bonus.
But the really reall really important thing is to make the bastion mode only work in low/null sec, don't make highsec carebearing even more attractive than it already is. This could be a good thing to lure people in lower sec
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
Emphasis mine. |
|

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:59:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote:I think it's good first step in rebalancing those ships, I'd suggest to give missile boats an explosion velocity bonus.
But the really reall really important thing is to make the bastion mode only work in low/null sec, don't make highsec carebearing even more attractive than it already is. This could be a good thing to lure people in lower sec
Do you even know what you're talking about?
Marauders are fine for any content highsec can throw at them tank-wise. If you can't tank it in a marauder, you're doing it wrong.
In incursions using these would even be super-bad since you can't get RR anymore.
The defensive bonuses of the bastion mode are lost on highsec players, simply because it's overkill. Maybe you can fit a 4th weapon upgrade or something, to squeeze out an extra 50-100dps or so, but that's DPS lost anyway because of the removal of drone bandwith. |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:02:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:
In incursions using these would even be super-bad since you can't get RR anymore.
.
Actually the numbers have already been ran, and with the right fit+implants the local tank will be about the same effectiveness as 12 incoming Scimitar reps with boost... |

Optimo Sebiestor
Bondage Goat Zombie Strictly Unprofessional
176
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:14:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Let's see here; CCP thinks theres too many highsec offline towers, what will they do about it..
oh wait.. |

Temuken Radzu
Bendebeukers Northern Associates.
42
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:28:00 -
[1174] - Quote
How about instead a bonus to the normal tractor beam range, the Marauder can fit Capital Tractor beams? solves all problems and will give Captial Tractors also some use. As far i know they are rarely used on the only ship that can fit them right now the Rorqual as they only sit at a pos. |

Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
49
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:31:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Tractor bonus is clearly to keep it useful singleboxing PvE like they said they wanted. I doubt if it was removed that we'd get another replacement so its fine. |

Quindaster
Infernal laboratory Infernal Octopus
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:31:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Return 10% web bonus on maradeurs!
Siege module for maradeurs is crazy idea and it will only help noobs to kill maradeurs on missions, but many people use them NOT only for mission. CCP stop doing stupid things for trial players who will be happy to kill expensive ships and leave the game in few month. Why ccp always think only about new idiot players and never about old players?!
We have enough idiots in this game, look at TESTS, no more please, we tired kill theys noobships and empty pods and read spam in local chats!
Return 10% bonus to maradeurs and remove this crazy 60 sec siege cycle for maradeurs, it's again simply crazy idea of CCP members who never play in this game.
You want to use this new module on maradeur CCP Ytterbium ? Ok, come to us and try to run missions on this ship with new module, and you will see it will be impossible to do even 1 mission cos you will be killed in this 60 sec cycle.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:40:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:Tractor bonus is clearly to keep it useful singleboxing PvE like they said they wanted. I doubt if it was removed that we'd get another replacement so its fine.
I'm not against the tractor beam bonus myself - I don't really use it but I could and I know some people have a use for it. I think tho if its going to have a tractor beam bonus then it needs other relevant bonuses/functionality in the fit to make it a complete package rather than being sidelined by just using a noctis or whatever.
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Anselm Cenobite
Gold Ring Enterprises Unknown Destination
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:44:00 -
[1178] - Quote
The whole microjump bonus is kind of cool--but I'm a sad panda that there's no more web bonus. Am I reading that correctly? I normally fly a Paladin with two Fed Navy stasis webbers--but that flight style is going to be fubared if the web bonus goes away.
Please, please don't take my webs! Or if you want to shake up Marauders, create a plug-in module for Paladins--one type of module gives the ship the microjump bonus. The other module gives the web bonus. Or to create variety, make two versions of each Marauder for each race with slightly different skins--one for webbing, one for Microjump boost. |

MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:47:00 -
[1179] - Quote
I would suggest an added bonus of a 1 second reduction in activation time for jump drives per level since these things are so immobile and easy to jam. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
110
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:57:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Adwokat Diabla wrote:These will be:
-broken for pve, especially plexing, and probably whing -impossible for any small gang to break -medium/large fleets will just scram and probably alpha through any self-given reps
These just don't seem like a good addition to the game. after sleeping on it, i tend to agree with this one. the bonuses to resists and repairs are so over the top that marauders become the ultimate solo pve pimpmobile bar none, obsoleting all other hulls. in incursions they lose their role as web providers to the vindicator and are thus if not useless, then at least strongly disadvantaged. in pvp, their designed play style may or may not shake up the meta game but my guess is that players who can afford to pvp with a 1bil hull will not give up their mobility advantage for some range and active reps. As little I know about PVP I find this concept appealing, actually. To me Marauder idea is a solo ship or a small band without internal structure. Well, 1 minute commitment is rather against this idea. OTOH, strong local tank without ability to rely on remote, seems to work along the line.
It will be interesting to see if/how it works in practice. |
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Abyss Azizora
The Nation of VeldSparta
60
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:58:00 -
[1181] - Quote
These changes will make marauders so useless at every role (Except maybe highsec pos bashing and even then, only an offline pos.) that I'm debating selling mine before noone uses them anymore.
Even atm they are kind of crap at everything, and only flown by people that don't understand that a Pirate BS outperforms them in every way that matters. I didn't think they could be made any worse, clearly I underestimated CCP. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:59:00 -
[1182] - Quote
this is very exciting change. I do not want them to give marauders anymore dps bonus as it will make them OP and everyone will use this ship for pve. I rather have people make choices between dps or utilies. Also, if you fly a marauder and salvage the whole room. this is not the ship for you. marauder is perfect for missions with only a few BS here and there which means its not profittable to redock and bring in a noctis to salvage a few wrecks. also i find salvaging is really poor, most of the extra isk comes from the loot from large wrecks (angels)
The only thing that i have see a major problem with is the tiny dronebay. The bandwidth isnt too much of a problem but only 25m3 bay is too tiny for a BS.
No matter what there will always be people not happy about the new changes because they want the dev to make ships that suits the way they play. |

SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:03:00 -
[1183] - Quote
At first I thought this idea was a little weird, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. This will definately a huge impact on getting these ships out there fighting, and will help shift the meta back away from the fast skirmish (I hope).
One request though - could you consider (or comment on why if you already have) switching the Paladin's optimal bonus (which replaced the web factor bonus) to a tracking bonus? The loss of web bonus is going to seriously hinder its ability to hit closer ships, and it would be the only marauder to not get a tracking bonus of any kind. That paired with the cap capacity bonus (which I believe is one of the weakest you give) might put a Paladin a tiny step behind its peers. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1487
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:49:00 -
[1184] - Quote
If the Kronos could get a +10% stasis web range per level (instead of 10% falloff per level) it would work well with the bastion module. The Bastion module puts void charges to around 16Km, a T2 web with a 50% range bonus is 15Km.
Also the need a way to GTFO with the mass increase it really hit the align time hard, letting them micro jump with out the spool-up time would work quite well as a GTFO while at the same time not making them uncatchable. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Baggo Hammers
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:51:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Howitzers! |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:16:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Paladin stands to gain the most out of this. It will obsolete everything for killing EM/THERM weak rats.
The reason is that the optimal buff makes conflagration builds viable. We are looking at 1218 plain gun dps without implants at 37+25 range sieged, 27+18 unsieged. This is well enough for missions when complemented with 1k@50+30 Gamma and 875@90k scorch. This also tanks easily with just t2 repper and damage control.
Any damage buff on these would just obsolete other PVE ships for many purposes. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:17:00 -
[1187] - Quote
Well heres my two sense as a seasoned Golem Pilot...
I do like this mini Siege-Mode idea, but the attributes you've given to the Golem have conflicts.
For one, the bonuses given favor for Cruise Missiles, but the ship's attributes still favor Torpedoes.
With Maxed Missile skills and faction missiles, I can belch a torp at 31km. With 25% bonus, won't amount to much (Comparable to a missile velocity rig). Switching to T2 torps, Rage will see worse range than that, and Javelin doesn't have enough damage to make a difference over T2 fury Cruise Missiles. T2 Torpedo launchers still eat way too much powergrid even with the extra 2k MW jacked in to properly use a T2 heavy cap booster and micro jump drive. Micro Jump Driving will put your tush at inconvinient areas of your torpedoes, making that bonus useless in this case as well.
Now on the other hand, if I fit cruises, the explosion velocity bonus on the ship is useless. You can hit just about anything with a well aimed T2 Fury missile and a target painter. So why have that?
So here are my proposed suggestions to resolve this imbalance.
- If favoring torpedoes; make the Micro Jump Drive have an ability to have a range selector from 10km to 100km, that way you won't overshoot your target if you wish to hop over. - If favoring Cruises; remove the explosion velocity attribute altogether, move the target painter bonus to Caldari Battleship, then add a 5% rate of fire (or damage) to the Marauder skill like the Paladin. We need to get the DPS of a T2 battleship higher than the T1/Faction Variant anyway, just makes better sense.
These ideas won't favor an overpowering, but a more versitile selection of ways to fit it, since it seems that once again, Torpedoes are getting the shaft in the rebalance, making the Typhoon the only viable torpedo boat in the game. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
421

|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:18:00 -
[1188] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it. Please keep it civil people!
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Vorstellung
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:20:00 -
[1189] - Quote
i own a vargur atm and cant speak for other marauders but stealing a good deal of the drone bandwith and bay will make PVE a bit "uncomfortable" to say it in a friendly tone.
one can compensate killing frigs by MJD 100km away and start Shooting frigs as they reaproach.
i also dislike to make the vargur THAT slow. the other changes are ok and look promising. 5000 power grid are VERY needed to give artys an Option, also in pvp right now MWD, large neut and large smartbomb + local tank + guns are not possible atm. after Change it will be possible.
for pvp i see some possibilities. with the right (expensive) Fitting vargur and Golem with Crystal set might tank in deployed mode Close to a Triage carrier.
i see a possibility to make fleets for Tower busting. dickstars with lots ECM required either capitals or large fleets with tons of logistics. now a bunch of marauders might just do the trick without logi.
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Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:31:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:" Two" way mode ship...
Well for a two way mode ship one mode is nerfed across the board former shadow of it self and 2nd is immobile tanked sentry gun.in other word there is no 2 way mode ship
CCP consider not nerfing ship mobility / tank in non bastion mode.
Do not "encourage" me to fly it how you want let me play this game.
I believe those are simple changes that can be make without any fuss and cover more of pilot / game playstiles.
i agree, good way of putting it...
|
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Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:33:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
its not that we want it to be just better, its that this ship is both expensive and skill intensive, meaning that ships that arent as expensive and skill intensive should not be just plain better than it. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
605
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:32:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:You're ********-- pre-nano nerf, ALL T2 webs were 90% webs... web strength bonii have only become useful *since* the nano nerf. Furthermore they don't cause balancing problems between ship sizes-- they work as intended to make webbing-specialized ships a lethal threat to things that speed-tank, which is pretty much their whole gimmick. Personal abuse not withstanding you are mostly incorrect, the bonuses were increased when the Nano-Nerf went into effect way back in 2008 but it was basically a line-item at the time. A sort of "oh, yeah, that". The arguments from the time still apply to current 90% webs. The other part of this is that these aren't on specialized ships, they're on high DPS, fairly tanky Battleships. The Vindicator has the highest DPS of any ship in the game right now and a 90% web bonus to go with it. This hardly makes it a "specialized and lethal" threat, it's a threat to anything within web-range and if you do get in web range you'll only be there as long as it takes 11 effective turrets of blaster damage (and probably a full flight of Sentries) to peel back your hull. This is hardly a "whole gimmick". You can, in most situations, achieve a similar effect but at greater trade-offs by simply fitting two webs or using two different webbing ships but this never reaches quite the level of ridiculousness that bonused webs do because of stacking penalties. I think that if CCP didn't believe that the web bonus was over-powered they wouldn't be taking it off both of these ships and this supports the idea that it's likely going to be completely phased out of the game or relegated to crusier hulls either during the Recon rebalance or the Vigilant when they do pirate-cruisers.
Wow you're totally right. People should probably be expected to pay 1.3b isk for a battleship with no special features going forward, because a combination of massive DPS and a webbing bonus on a short-range battleship definitely isn't a gimmick that can convince people to spend extra coin on a ship. I'd say that a ship who's entire gimmick is creating an 18km circle of absolute destruction around itself at the expense of a massive pricetag and no utility slots fairly specialized.
Oh, and thanks for repeating exactly what I said-- that web strength bonuses in fact have nothing to do with pre-nerf webs and are an entirely post-speed-nerf phenomenon. |

Tratari
Broke Sauce
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:42:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Can I just have my SP points back from Maraders...hell I'd even take 1/2 of them back. What a waste. |

Wu Phat
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
35
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:10:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:12:00 -
[1195] - Quote
Quote:]Did you two actually read what he wrote?
If most of the changes people have vomited up as alternatives came to be you'd be dead in the above situation in anything less than another Marauder fleet. His point is that the "better idea's" being thrown around would make Marauders the defacto fleet doctrine of any large alliance.
And he'd be correct in that.
Marauders are way too expensive and skill-intensive (the latter being more important than the former) to use as a "de-facto fleet doctrine" even if they are heavily boosted. Battleship V, AWU V, EGU V, and then the Marauders skill itself which is Rank 10. You need to find hundreds of pilots that have all that and that also all have the T2 guns of your choice trained, since mixing racial types definitely doesn't work as a fleet doctrine. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:19:00 -
[1196] - Quote
For the life of me I can't understand many of the complaints in here...
Yes, the 90% Web is going away. I'm willing to bet that during the Pirate re-balance it will go away there too, and for good reason: It's too damned powerful. In it's place you get incredible projection, incredible local tank, highly boosted buffer tank and EWAR immunity.
This is a more than a fair trade, folks. It's an incredible improvement. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
92
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:19:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!
its not that we want it to be just better, its that this ship is both expensive and skill intensive, meaning that ships that arent as expensive and skill intensive should not be just plain better than it.
Pirate Ships cost the same and does have nearly the same skill time (if IV-V) and they are clearly good enough to compete, while T1 arent better in any means. Sry cant see your point.
Edit: Ok, Tier 3 is pretty close... |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:24:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Wu Phat wrote:Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.
The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons. |

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:32:00 -
[1199] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:
Marauders are way too expensive and skill-intensive (the latter being more important than the former) to use as a "de-facto fleet doctrine" even if they are heavily boosted. Battleship V, AWU V, EGU V, and then the Marauders skill itself which is Rank 10. You need to find hundreds of pilots that have all that and that also all have the T2 guns of your choice trained, since mixing racial types definitely doesn't work as a fleet doctrine.
This is certainly true. |

Lugues Slive
Basement Chemists Dead Rune Society
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:32:00 -
[1200] - Quote
I dont know if it has been discussed in this thread, but if the Marauders are intended to be long range ships, should thier tractor range be increased so that they can reach wrecks left at that range? |
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
605
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:41:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Wu Phat wrote:Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way. The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons.
Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius... |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:50:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Xequecal wrote:Wu Phat wrote:Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way. The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons. Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...
chance to hit and tracking arent same thing |

Stay Thirsty
The Chosen Children
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:55:00 -
[1203] - Quote
I will state this again, although it will be the 25th time it has been stated (hoping it catches the eye of CCP).
Make the tractor range bonus something useful with the new MJD range. IE... 500% tractor range bonus, or better yet make it a totally different bonus unrelated to tractors. 500% would be 100km, which is slightly further than a max trained Noctis. As it stands right now, the Marauders' tractors are not that effective in missions where wrecks are spread. It is better to BM and return with a Noctis. I can only imagine if you jump 100km away you are not going to slow-boat back to the 40km range to use the tractor. I foresee the combination of a MJD and a 100% bonus will lead to a massive drop in the utilization of marauder with tractors all-together.
Personally I would rather see a total different bonus. If you are switching these to being a dual PVE/PVP boat, the tractor bonus is fairly useless in either situation. It does nothing for a PVP doctrine as I can't really see using a billion ISK ship as your looter / salvager. I don't think many mission runners are going to use the Marauder as a kill / loot / salvage boat again since the Noctis was invented. Especially now with a reduced drone bay that makes having a flight of salvage drones not as easy. In PVE, it still remains more efficient to come back in a Noctis, or simply contract your wrecks to someone like Pro-Synergy.
If you are totally set on keeping the bonus to tractor, at least with a 100km range, the tractor may get some use in PVE for wreck-balling. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
66
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:43:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Xequecal wrote:Wu Phat wrote:Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way. The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons. Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius... chance to hit and tracking arent same thing
Yeah, actually they kind of are. Tracking is entirely a component of the damage application formula. Your tracking factors into you chance to hit but comparing raw tracking numbers between weapons classes doesn't work by itself. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:53:00 -
[1205] - Quote
And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.
1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.
And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>
Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven. |

Hedor
Torsion Industries Asgard Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:57:00 -
[1206] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.
Only problem I have with this explanation is this, my golem has nothing in low slots but damage mods, so its not like the bastion module will let me remove anything to add more dps, with a lower drone bay and no more slots in low I cant even do some good sentry damage with drone damage amp's......... This is pure tank and not much else for the bastion module, for its intended effect, it really does need some sort of bonus to damage, or I need another low slot on my golem :D. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:04:00 -
[1207] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.
1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.
And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>
Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven.
Missile HP bonus on Bastion maybe? Or on the Golem itself so it's more viable as a whole. Would help make up for the lack of a damage bonus on the hull too, since the other three get one along with the stock Raven. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:06:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...
With the way the chance to hit formula works the less your struggling to track the less significant the signature difference between the ship and weapon your using is to the point that on a stationary target its academic if theres a difference. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:07:00 -
[1209] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Xequecal wrote:Wu Phat wrote:Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way. The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons. Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius... chance to hit and tracking arent same thing Yeah, actually they kind of are. Tracking is entirely a component of the damage application formula. Your tracking factors into you chance to hit but comparing raw tracking numbers between weapons classes doesn't work by itself.
oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.
But yes you are correct chance to hit would be different, tracking is Not the only factor, and comparing large guns to medium guns the sig matters a lot more |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:07:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Hedor wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though. Only problem I have with this explanation is this, my golem has nothing in low slots but damage mods, so its not like the bastion module will let me remove anything to add more dps, with a lower drone bay and no more slots in low I cant even do some good sentry damage with drone damage amp's......... This is pure tank and not much else for the bastion module, for its intended effect, it really does need some sort of bonus to damage, or I need another low slot on my golem :D.
Well, if missile-boats get mid-slot damage application mods then this changes. Also you could potentially down-grade your tank to something with less bling or strip tanking modules off in favor of webs and/or target painters. Both of these help the Golem through slots that would otherwise be used for tank. |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:09:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.
The point hes trying to make as per my earlier post the other components of the chance to hit formula become less relevant as your ability to track a target increases. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:10:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Battle Cube wrote: chance to hit and tracking arent same thing
Yeah, actually they kind of are. Tracking is entirely a component of the damage application formula. Your tracking factors into you chance to hit but comparing raw tracking numbers between weapons classes doesn't work by itself. oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.
I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.
Also that is the damage-application formula and the only place tracking is taken into account so, yes, that is "tracking".
Rroff wrote:Battle Cube wrote: oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.
The point hes trying to make as per my earlier post the other components of the chance to hit formula become less relevant as your ability to track a target increases.
Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:17:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.
On a tricked out vargur say versus a deimos - given both having same on paper dps and ignoring resists against say a crucifier the only thing thats different is the range at which the crucifier can get under their guns - on optimal the damage application is as close as makes no difference identical (yes it really is) despite the differences in gun signature compared to the target.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.
Thats true to a certain extent but for most intents and purposes if your not having to worry about tracking then sig differences make very little odds in damage application - the formula does not work the way people think it does. |

Caprice Azar
DucKtape Unlimited SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:34:00 -
[1214] - Quote
A vote in favour of not cutting the tractor beam - main reason I am skilling into marauders is so I can grab a little extra isk from the anoms I'm doing, but normal 20km tractors don't reach far enough or the 2 gun slots used by the tractor/salvager eat too much dps. Running a noctis around afterward isn't appealing (I do occasionally when I need some salvage for rigs, but don't like it).
By no means am I thinking I'd salvage the whole site, but there's a bit of down time between targeting a wave & finishing blapping I can spend on salvage - more reason for active playing than afking.
40km is more than enough range, although that doesn't rule out an increase. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:44:00 -
[1215] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.
On a tricked out vargur say versus a deimos - given both having same on paper dps and ignoring resists against say a crucifier the only thing thats different is the range at which the crucifier can get under their guns - on optimal the damage application is as close as makes no difference identical (yes it really is). Cade Windstalker wrote: Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.
Thats true to a certain extent but for most intents and purposes if your not having to worry about tracking then sig differences make very little odds in damage application - the formula does not work the way people think it does.
For a start, I'm actually very well versed in how the formula works, I've spent the last week playing with it in various spreadsheets to figure out the implications of the HAC MWD bonus (it's pretty darn awesome).
Second if you drop the tracking on the Auto-Cannons to .15 and throw a 30% sig buff on a 140 sig target you actually gain more DPS than with the .17 tracking and no sig buff. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1342
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:49:00 -
[1216] - Quote
I don't like the 5% bonus to capacitor capacity on the Paladin. The bonus is based on the Amarr Battleship skill, so it's always a 25% bonus. It feels like a phony bonus! Please can this be rolled into the hull, and replaced with a second weapon bonus like all the other Marauders? A tracking bonus would be nice.
The Golem gets an explosion velocity bonus, the Vargur gets a tracking bonus and the Kronos gets a tracking bonus. The Paladin's the only one without such an application bonus, and it's using lasers? :(
I don't know tracking or weapons much, and the ship does have the falloff boost from the bastion mod, so I don't know if a tracking bonus for Amarr BS skill would be too powerful? But the 5% capacitor capacity feels like a waste when it's always there and always at 25%. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
607
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:57:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.
On a tricked out vargur say versus a deimos - given both having same on paper dps and ignoring resists against say a crucifier the only thing thats different is the range at which the crucifier can get under their guns - on optimal the damage application is as close as makes no difference identical (yes it really is) despite the differences in gun signature compared to the target. Cade Windstalker wrote: Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.
Thats true to a certain extent but for most intents and purposes if your not having to worry about tracking then sig differences make very little odds in damage application - the formula does not work the way people think it does.
You're missing the point: this dude comes in and says, "my 800mm ACs will have the same rad/sec tracking as my medium blasters, ergo they will apply damage just as well." The point is that he's wrong since tracking is only one determiner of hit quality. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:00:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
For a start, I'm actually very well versed in how the formula works, I've spent the last week playing with it in various spreadsheets to figure out the implications of the HAC MWD bonus (it's pretty darn awesome).
Second if you drop the tracking on the Auto-Cannons to .15 and throw a 30% sig buff on a 140 sig target you actually gain more DPS than with the .17 tracking and no sig buff.
Wasn't specifically talking about your knowledge - but yeah its not completely cancelled out until transversal hits 0 but the effect of sig is much reduced as you get closer to perfect tracking and the difference in weapon size has a much more limited effect on your quality of hit - conversely As your tracking becomes more imperfect the more the difference in weapon size becomes a factor.
Ganthrithor wrote:
You're missing the point: this dude comes in and says, "my 800mm ACs will have the same rad/sec tracking as my medium blasters, ergo they will apply damage just as well." The point is that he's wrong since tracking is only one determiner of hit quality.
Only he not (for the most part) wrong. The other factors that affect how well you hit are much reduced when your rad/sec tracking is comparable. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:06:00 -
[1219] - Quote
Regardless of tracking etc....
MARAUDERS what do we think of these changes.... ---> GO :) |

Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2303
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:07:00 -
[1220] - Quote
You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel. Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers. |
|

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:10:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel. Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers.
Scram, get under guns, wait til they get bored? :P |

Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:12:00 -
[1222] - Quote
The Spod wrote:Paladin stands to gain the most out of this. It will obsolete everything for killing EM/THERM weak rats.
The reason is that the optimal buff makes conflagration builds viable. We are looking at 1218 plain gun dps without implants at 37+25 range sieged, 27+18 unsieged. This is well enough for missions when complemented with 1k@50+30 Gamma and 875@90k scorch. This also tanks easily with just t2 repper and damage control.
Any damage buff on these would just obsolete other PVE ships for many purposes.
I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it yet, but don't forget that Armor and Shield reppers are getting a boost in 1.1. So, these things will be getting a rep bonus on top of the coming rep bonus. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
359
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:14:00 -
[1223] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Jack Miton wrote:You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel. Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers. Scram, get under guns, wait til they get bored? :P
Alternatively, hit them with extremely high alpha while they're completely locked down in bastion mode. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. :\ |

Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:14:00 -
[1224] - Quote
These are going to annihilate POS towers all throughout high sec. With an EWAR immunity, Dickstars won't work anymore. We're going to see roaming bands of 'em going a slaughterin'. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:16:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Sarah Stallman wrote:These are going to annihilate POS towers all throughout high sec. With an EWAR immunity, Dickstars won't work anymore. We're going to see roaming bands of 'em going a slaughterin'.
yeah there is that, and although it would make me sad because that would disinterest me in this ship, it is an understandable niche especially if it is a 'mini-dread', but then i think the range bonus is sort of... just not very good. |

Frothgar
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:18:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Why do the Kronos, Golem, and Vargur have the damage bonus on the Battleship Prereq, while the Paladin has it on the Marauders skill?
It seems a bit silly to have to train such a massive skill to lvl5 just to deal the same damage as an Abaddon.
Please remedy? |

Gnoshia
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:38:00 -
[1227] - Quote
My only complaint is the name of the module.
Where the hell did you get "Bastion" from?  |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:40:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:NiteNinja wrote:And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.
1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.
And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>
Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven. Missile HP bonus on Bastion maybe? Or on the Golem itself so it's more viable as a whole. Would help make up for the lack of a damage bonus on the hull too, since the other three get one along with the stock Raven.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070
Yeah I mentioned that, all the other Marauders gets some kind of damage bonus, but you see nothing for missiles.
We know CCP hates missiles anyway. They're not that overpowered.
And bring back the old torpedo shockwaves and V3 them, I miss those. Torp and Cruise explosion GFX is the same. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1345
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:47:00 -
[1229] - Quote
Gnoshia wrote:My only complaint is the name of the module. Where the hell did you get "Bastion" from?  it's named after Sir Sebastian Bastion III the inventor of the modern marauder |

Sturm Gewehr
The Legitimate PVP Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:49:00 -
[1230] - Quote
MJD bonus good.
Bastion = bad. |
|

Violet Winters
Angelic Eclipse.
107
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:56:00 -
[1231] - Quote
m0jo wrote:My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?
Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh.
Because if a Vargur hits hull it's defiantly going to survive, I mean hell if anything is gonna break the the tank on a Bastion Vargur it's going to a dread which would probably alpha it anyways. CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:59:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Ok from the PVE side is there much MJD use in missions? I have never seen the need or use for a MJD in mission. And if you make the ships even slower it's even harder to use a MJD. "to encourage Marauders to use Micro Jump Drives to move around, and as such have reduced mobility next to their Tech1 counterparts (bit higher mass and lower max velocity)." Overshoot or slowboat, and/or slowboat back from overshoot, some good times there. So you will need dual prop?
PVP side the BASTION MODULE/mini dred I have no idea. Bonus to MJD maby. Is it worth reducing the already small amount of drones I dont think so and slowing the already slow ship why?.
So howbout some thing useful like the 4 non wep high slots? 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams is a crap bonus for lvl4 cleanup. let us fit a 2x2 2x Tracks 2xSalvagers with a range to be worth it. Or 4x tracks and feed 5x salvage drones.
Go with a set Role Bonus: 500% bonus to tractor beam range 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity
or a Ship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time per level. 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level.
Updated comperhensive salvaging options are what the Marauer Class needs (and what we have been asking for) not reduced drones and mini-dred/MJD nonsense. The reduction of drones is a net loss of DPS with out recompense. Just my 2 cents MB |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:00:00 -
[1233] - Quote
i forgot who mentioned it but i agree that if its going to continue to have a tractor beam bonus, it should be changed to the ability to fit a capital tractor beam. Would maybe give it some interesting niche uses... |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:04:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Violet Winters wrote:m0jo wrote:My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?
Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh. Because if a Vargur hits hull it's defiantly going to survive, I mean hell if anything is gonna break the the tank on a Bastion Vargur it's going to a dread which would probably alpha it anyways.
It's probably losing hull to make up for its extremely high base shield resists.
Even with dual ASBs and Bastion you can break the tank with 2-3 Battleships and alpha one off the field with ~8 Tornadoes. |

Meyr
Shiva The Retirement Club
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:05:00 -
[1235] - Quote
What we're about to see is an absolute pestilence of griefer war decs against small industrial corps ransoming their towers in order to not have them blapped.
Unless you have your POS set up as a deathstar, and enough gunners to man all of the guns, these things are going to destroy hisec T2 production - which seems to be the ultimate goal of CCP anyway, so, in that regard, JOB WELL DONE, MORONS! I guess we can all go PVP in T1 hulls with Meta modules fitted, and maybe then 0.0 ratting will be able to pay the bills.
It's not as if you haven't given Industrialists enough grief with gankers being given Tier 3 BC's, stupidly high DPS on Catalysts, ganking out of noob corps, and Tags-for-Sec-Status - now, they'll have to either move to lowsec or 0.0 in order to keep roaming idiots with a handful of Marauders from destroying the assets that allow them to PVP in 0.0 - that is, IF they can find a place in lowsec or 0.0 that won't simply blow them up out of hand.
You really haven't thought the end effect through very well, have you? Who do you think a huge chunk of those stupid hisec carebears are, you cretins? They're 0.0 PVP'ers paying for the ships they lose, you imbeciles. Now, you make 0.0 life more difficult by forcing hisec alts into even more mission running, FW farming, and Incursion running.
Next up: An announcement from these same bass-ackwards, pants-on-head dweebs that, for one of the 2014 patches, hisec mission running, Faction Warfare, and/or Incursions will be made less profitable. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1346
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:13:00 -
[1236] - Quote
starbases can be taken down in under a day and if the owner doesn't want to i'm sure certain organisations will just love jumping on as a wardec ally for a chance at marauder kills
what's with all the negative language duder |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
335
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:43:00 -
[1237] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.
1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.
And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>
Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven.
with the missile velocity bonus most npc defenders won't be able to hit a cruise missile fired from a golem, and if you have a missile velocity rig and/or missile velocity implant even less so. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Hedor
Torsion Industries Asgard Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:47:00 -
[1238] - Quote
Hm.......... I just thought of something, and I'm probably completely off base, but does immunity to ewar also equal immunity to cap neuts? |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
335
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 02:48:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:I don't like the 5% bonus to capacitor capacity on the Paladin. The bonus is based on the Amarr Battleship skill, so it's always a 25% bonus. It feels like a phony bonus! Please can this be rolled into the hull, and replaced with a second weapon bonus like all the other Marauders? A tracking bonus would be nice.
The Golem gets an explosion velocity bonus, the Vargur gets a tracking bonus and the Kronos gets a tracking bonus. The Paladin's the only one without such an application bonus, and it's using lasers? :(
I don't know tracking or weapons much, and the ship does have the falloff boost from the bastion mod, so I don't know if a tracking bonus for Amarr BS skill would be too powerful? But the 5% capacitor capacity feels like a waste when it's always there and always at 25%.
if I'm not mistaken tachyons track better than 425mm railguns. Just looked and in EFT the tracking bonus on the kronos gets 425s up to 0.01737 where the tach paladin has 0.0174, so with tachs the paladin tracks better than the kronos with 425s.
That said yes please do roll the cap bonus into the hull and give the paladin another bonus!!! You can trust me, I have a monocole |

VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises THE ROYAL NAVY
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 03:28:00 -
[1240] - Quote
i'm suddenly training marauders.
also, 90% structure resist? A billion isk worth of lulz await us all. 
|
|

Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 03:31:00 -
[1241] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
Merci Monsieur!  Run level 4 missions? -áIncrease your income and help new players earn ISK. -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy Pro Synergy is looking for dedicated Salvagers. -áWant to learn more? -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy |

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 03:31:00 -
[1242] - Quote
IMO, right now, the best Minnie pve ships for running high-sec lvl 4s in descending order are:
-Republic Fleet Typhoon (cruise missiles, xl asb). Kite at 80+ km. -Machariel (800s, xl asb). Kite at 40+ Km. -Loki (650s, large asb). 20 Km bladedancer with the ability to get out of Dodge ASAP. -Vargur (800s, xl asb). 15 Km machete wielder, but toon has to be very carefull of shield ammount and align time.
Atm the the Vargur comes in 4th place because it has the agility of a thrown brick (takes forever to turn and align), is slooooow (gets a bloody nose closing in on target), does not have enough cpu (needs a lot of bling with low cpu requirements to get a decent speed/dps/shield fit), base shield ammount is too low and gobbles up considerable ammounts of ammo to do similar dps as the other ships.
So along comes XYZ advised by, I assume, the nullbears and wbears that make up the ABC and between them come up with this idea to 'rebalance Marauders', and what do they do to the already problematic Vargur? Make it SLOWER, make it LESS AGILE, increase POWER GRID (to add mods not used by carebears) not CPU, weaken its DEFENCES and to top it off now want to turn it into a pvp gun tower with a SMALLER drone bay.
Now XYZ and ABC are going to start to wonder why there are so many unhappy and bitter whiners on this thread. It is not too difficult to figure out why high-sec carebears are not impressed by the proposed changes. Don't nerf ships or play style in lieu of lack of content, because most carebear toons with 100 million+ skill points have trained everything they need to lvl 5 and then some and if they are not already in low, null or w space then they are not interested in visiting, moving or exploring that content.
As more and more toons reach 100 mill+ sp Eve will suffer unless more content is provided. For example it can take a noob 6+ hours to finish a Blockade or Buzz Kill, a vet needs a bit more than an hour, including looting and salvaging, unless they fly a Vargur. Need another example? Blobs. Bigger and bigger blobs with no end in sight. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
607
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 03:54:00 -
[1243] - Quote
So I guess CCP have already demoed the art assets required for this change to the CSM. Guess that means we'll be stuck with these ******** ships regardless of how many game-design shortcomings we point out?
No offense to the art team-- I'm sure the new animations look pretty gangster-- I just wish they were being used on something less moronic. |

Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 03:59:00 -
[1244] - Quote
VaL Iscariot wrote:i'm suddenly training marauders. also, 90% structure resist? A billion isk worth of lulz await us all. 
Modules don't stack that way. (1 - 0.6) * (1 - 0.3) = 0.28 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 04:07:00 -
[1245] - Quote
VaL Iscariot wrote:i'm suddenly training marauders. also, 90% structure resist? A billion isk worth of lulz await us all. 
72% Structure Resists. Check your math again. |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 04:22:00 -
[1246] - Quote
I'm amazed at all the complaining.
These things are going to be great at the following;
- Wormhole Anoms up to C3's (maybe C4's) - All L4 Missions - Epic Arc's / COSMOS - LV5's
I can't speak for DED sites as I've not enough experience, but from what I understand of them, they should great there too.
Any arguments to say that these things are going to be useless in PvE are just beyond me.
And as for PvP, doing WH's anoms gives you lots of that. L5's would do the same.
I can see these things being used all over W-Space.
No ship should be good at everything, asking for that is just silly. But they will excel in some area's, and that's fine.
I say all of of the above as a Pally pilot who is perfectly happy with it as it is now. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 04:24:00 -
[1247] - Quote
Gwen Ambraelle wrote:I'm amazed at all the complaining.
These things are going to be great at the following;
- Wormhole Anoms up to C3's (maybe C4's) - All L4 Missions - Epic Arc's / COSMOS - LV5's
I can't speak for DED sites as I've not enough experience, but from what I understand of them, they should great there too.
Any arguments to say that these things are going to be useless in PvE are just beyond me.
And as for PvP, doing WH's anoms gives you lots of that. L5's would do the same.
I can see these things being used all over W-Space.
No ship should be good at everything, asking for that is just silly. But they will excel in some area's, and that's fine.
I say all of of the above as a Pally pilot who is perfectly happy with it as it is now.
Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1487
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 04:27:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Gwen Ambraelle wrote:I'm amazed at all the complaining.
These things are going to be great at the following;
- Wormhole Anoms up to C3's (maybe C4's) - All L4 Missions - Epic Arc's / COSMOS - LV5's
I can't speak for DED sites as I've not enough experience, but from what I understand of them, they should great there too.
Any arguments to say that these things are going to be useless in PvE are just beyond me.
And as for PvP, doing WH's anoms gives you lots of that. L5's would do the same.
I can see these things being used all over W-Space.
No ship should be good at everything, asking for that is just silly. But they will excel in some area's, and that's fine.
I say all of of the above as a Pally pilot who is perfectly happy with it as it is now. Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve. If it weren't for there horrid align time they could be used solo in low sec fairly well, but with a best 12.1 second align time they will be tackled too fast to be worth 1b+ ship when there are, like you said, cheaper ships that can do almost as well. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 04:33:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Gwen Ambraelle wrote:I'm amazed at all the complaining.
These things are going to be great at the following;
- Wormhole Anoms up to C3's (maybe C4's) - All L4 Missions - Epic Arc's / COSMOS - LV5's
I can't speak for DED sites as I've not enough experience, but from what I understand of them, they should great there too.
Any arguments to say that these things are going to be useless in PvE are just beyond me.
And as for PvP, doing WH's anoms gives you lots of that. L5's would do the same.
I can see these things being used all over W-Space.
No ship should be good at everything, asking for that is just silly. But they will excel in some area's, and that's fine.
I say all of of the above as a Pally pilot who is perfectly happy with it as it is now. Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve.
L5 mission solo - What other ship would be more effective? C3/4 Sites solo - What other ship would be more effective? Amarr Epic with all their (^^$%$&()*& TD's - What ship would be better? The Assault with all their ^*%$*&&^ Jammers - What ship would be better?
I could go on, but the point is that if you have the skills, these changes are very intriguing. |

Melek D'Ivri
617 Squadron
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 04:52:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Love the bastion module, love the Kronos range bonuses, love the FINALLY arty vargur, quite happy about the 8th slot.
I was really afraid you guys would break Marauders, but I'm quite impressed and very happy with what I see, it makes my decision to pilot a marauder very satisfactory.
Now can I ask for 72 km tractors!  |
|

Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:13:00 -
[1251] - Quote
Hedor wrote:Hm.......... I just thought of something, and I'm probably completely off base, but does immunity to ewar also equal immunity to cap neuts? Historically, no. Siege and triage do not make you immune to neuts/nos; it's one of two effective ways to kill triage/sieged dreds: neuts, or more dps than they can rep. It's technically capacitor warfare, not electronic warfare. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2660
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:23:00 -
[1252] - Quote
I was just reading a post in the Missions and Complexes forum and something one poster said made me chuckle.
The Bastion module should be renamed to "CAM-B" module, because once you activate it it's like saying "Come at me, Bro" . |

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
248
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:27:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Gwen Ambraelle wrote:L5 mission solo - What other ship would be more effective?
we're not 100% sure you'll be able to do that yet...
Quote:C3/4 Sites solo - What other ship would be more effective? Doubt these could solo any better than a Tengu. Neuts, remember?
Quote:Amarr Epic with all their (^^$%$&()*& TD's - What ship would be better? Fleet Phoon ftw
Quote:The Assault with all their ^*%$*&&^ Jammers - What ship would be better? Pretty much any faction battleship or T3 with an ECCM does fine...their jamming strength hovers between 2 and 5. Bonus F.O.F. on missile ships. thhief ghabmoef |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:28:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Battle Cube wrote: Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve.
If it weren't for there horrid align time they could be used solo in low sec fairly well, but with a best 12.1 second align time they will be tackled too fast to be worth 1b+ ship when there are, like you said, cheaper ships that can do almost as well.
The basic Raven has an align time of 16.5 seconds, Navy Raven 16.2, and Scorpion Navy Issue 18s.
All three are popular missioning Battleships, none of them aligns out at max skills any faster than 10.9 seconds at maxed skills. If that extra second is what saves your ship then you should have fit a Nano.
These are Battleships. They are not going to align quickly. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7756
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:46:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Battle Cube wrote: Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve.
If it weren't for there horrid align time they could be used solo in low sec fairly well, but with a best 12.1 second align time they will be tackled too fast to be worth 1b+ ship when there are, like you said, cheaper ships that can do almost as well. The basic Raven has an align time of 16.5 seconds, Navy Raven 16.2, and Scorpion Navy Issue 18s. All three are popular missioning Battleships, none of them aligns out at max skills any faster than 10.9 seconds at maxed skills. If that extra second is what saves your ship then you should have fit a Nano. These are Battleships. They are not going to align quickly.
So long as I can get the kronos to keep up with cruisers I'll be happy. |

Ise Lavrenec
Pycb Navy Legion of xXDEATHXx
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:59:00 -
[1256] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules(not stacking penalized)[/i](!!!)
So.... Damage control 2+Basion = 60-90% ? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:01:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: we're not 100% sure you'll be able to do that yet...
No, but it's not a bad bet either.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: Doubt these could solo any better than a Tengu. Neuts, remember?
Massive cargo hold for cap-boosters along with powerful local tank and the ability to pull range on the sleepers.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: Fleet Phoon ftw
Probably doesn't tank as well though, and the extra tank lets you fit more tracking modules.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:Pretty much any faction battleship or T3 with an ECCM does fine...their jamming strength hovers between 2 and 5. Bonus F.O.F. on missile ships.
You're still going to take a hit to your completion time from the jamming though and these things have almost no chance of landing in perma-jammed hell just because the RNG decides it doesn't like you today. Plus, again, no ECCM means more modules for other more useful things. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:03:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Ise Lavrenec wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules(not stacking penalized)[/i](!!!)
So.... Damage control 2+Basion = 60-90% ?
If you're talking about hull resists it's 72%, otherwise you need actual resist mods to get anywhere near those numbers.
baltec1 wrote:So long as I can get the kronos to keep up with cruisers I'll be happy.
This is rather ambiguous. Which cruiser for a start? |

baltec1
Bat Country
7756
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:11:00 -
[1259] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is rather ambiguous. Which cruiser for a start?
Whatever the doctrine is. I dont have many issues with the mega and looking at the stats the kronos should be able to manage but I'll have to stick with the mega for frigate gangs. |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
350
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:18:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Gwen Ambraelle wrote: L5 mission solo - What other ship would be more effective? C3/4 Sites solo - What other ship would be more effective? Amarr Epic with all their (^^$%$&()*& TD's - What ship would be better? The Assault with all their ^*%$*&&^ Jammers - What ship would be better?
I could go on, but the point is that if you have the skills, these changes are very intriguing.
1. rattlesnake 2. any t3? for what it matters most hacs, neut will kill this things. 3. whatever navy or missile ship suits you. 4. guristas are the worst npcs to run, and if you do, t3 or any normal missile battleship, or well I dunno, I do it on a dominix? who cares about jamming.
having more tank makes them NO more usefull for pve, unable to be logied, means they are coffins in fleet fights, look, capital ships that go into triage or siegue often die with multimillion hp, a battleship with 350k ehp and active tanked is paperthin in a fleet fight.
I can already imagine the laughs in any low sec or null sec system, when any idiot goes into bastion mode at a gate after jumping mid camp, the sound will be deafeaning, more or less similar to that of a titan jumping by accident and getting caugh by a hic.
have you owned a marauder? I have owned 3 of 4, maxed skills for all of them, and I can tell you this changes does not address anything at all of their problems, nor for pve nor for pvp, we don't need more tank, we need more firepower, having a trillion tank will not make a golem finish missions faster than a half cost CNR. for what it matters, a normal raven or navy scorp will be as good.
and for pvp having more projection wont help, when what we need is more application, most fights are already at short range, due to hics and bubbles, having blasters reach 100000 kilometers does not help, when I need to hit the battleship orbiting me at 3km
the same applies for all the other ships, paladin is just a overtanked apoc, kronos is an armor tanked rokh, and vargur is just a slow tempest pretty much. |
|

Daisai
Daisai Investments.
133
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:24:00 -
[1261] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.
And marauders are only used in level 4missions..... not like anyone ever does ecalations with them. |

Ralina Foley
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:27:00 -
[1262] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Quote:]Did you two actually read what he wrote?
If most of the changes people have vomited up as alternatives came to be you'd be dead in the above situation in anything less than another Marauder fleet. His point is that the "better idea's" being thrown around would make Marauders the defacto fleet doctrine of any large alliance.
And he'd be correct in that. Marauders are way too expensive and skill-intensive (the latter being more important than the former) to use as a "de-facto fleet doctrine" even if they are heavily boosted. Battleship V, AWU V, EGU V, and then the Marauders skill itself which is Rank 10. You need to find hundreds of pilots that have all that and that also all have the T2 guns of your choice trained, since mixing racial types definitely doesn't work as a fleet doctrine.
Keep in mind, people said that about T3s, but for a little T3s were in, Tengus becoming essentially "Super Drake" fleets. The same could certainly be said of capital fleets that number in 100+. If it wasn't for the bad tracking of dreads, you could easily see them in a fleet doctrine.
EvE has shown that you cannot count on players to be the limit but rather the mechanics. Larger alliances certainly could sponsor a push towards pilots getting marauders if they happen to be the best doctrine ship. Granted, the skills and cost will put up a limit, but only to some people. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:31:00 -
[1263] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Quote:]Did you two actually read what he wrote?
If most of the changes people have vomited up as alternatives came to be you'd be dead in the above situation in anything less than another Marauder fleet. His point is that the "better idea's" being thrown around would make Marauders the defacto fleet doctrine of any large alliance.
And he'd be correct in that. Marauders are way too expensive and skill-intensive (the latter being more important than the former) to use as a "de-facto fleet doctrine" even if they are heavily boosted. Battleship V, AWU V, EGU V, and then the Marauders skill itself which is Rank 10. You need to find hundreds of pilots that have all that and that also all have the T2 guns of your choice trained, since mixing racial types definitely doesn't work as a fleet doctrine.
If you fly battleships you've BS V, AWU V, EGU V and skills for T2 guns anyway. AWU and EGU are very important support skills. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
607
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:40:00 -
[1264] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Gwen Ambraelle wrote: L5 mission solo - What other ship would be more effective? C3/4 Sites solo - What other ship would be more effective? Amarr Epic with all their (^^$%$&()*& TD's - What ship would be better? The Assault with all their ^*%$*&&^ Jammers - What ship would be better?
I could go on, but the point is that if you have the skills, these changes are very intriguing.
1. rattlesnake 2. any t3? for what it matters most hacs, neut will kill this things. 3. whatever navy or missile ship suits you. 4. guristas are the worst npcs to run, and if you do, t3 or any normal missile battleship, or well I dunno, I do it on a dominix? who cares about jamming. having more tank makes them NO more usefull for pve, unable to be logied, means they are coffins in fleet fights, look, capital ships that go into triage or siegue often die with multimillion hp, a battleship with 350k ehp and active tanked is paperthin in a fleet fight. I can already imagine the laughs in any low sec or null sec system, when any idiot goes into bastion mode at a gate after jumping mid camp, the sound will be deafeaning, more or less similar to that of a titan jumping by accident and getting caugh by a hic. have you owned a marauder? I have owned 3 of 4, maxed skills for all of them, and I can tell you this changes does not address anything at all of their problems, nor for pve nor for pvp, we don't need more tank, we need more firepower, having a trillion tank will not make a golem finish missions faster than a half cost CNR. for what it matters, a normal raven or navy scorp will be as good. and for pvp having more projection wont help, when what we need is more application, most fights are already at short range, due to hics and bubbles, having blasters reach 100000 kilometers does not help, when I need to hit the battleship orbiting me at 3km the same applies for all the other ships, paladin is just a overtanked apoc, kronos is an armor tanked rokh, and vargur is just a slow tempest pretty much.
I'm glad some other people "get" this. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:44:00 -
[1265] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:If you fly battleships you've BS V, AWU V, EGU V and skills for T2 guns anyway. AWU and EGU are very important support skills.
This is a completely erroneous assumption for at least half the people who make up the average null-sec Battleship blob. Most of them probably won't have BS 5, though they may have at least some of their support skills at 5 it's not hugely likely that they'll have them all at 5.
Most Alliances could probably get an elite wing of the things but it's questionable how useful that would actually be compared to having those same elite pilots in capital ships or faction battleships which have similar or lower skill requirements and cost.
Ralina Foley wrote: Keep in mind, people said that about T3s, but for a little T3s were in, Tengus becoming essentially "Super Drake" fleets. The same could certainly be said of capital fleets that number in 100+. If it wasn't for the bad tracking of dreads, you could easily see them in a fleet doctrine.
EvE has shown that you cannot count on players to be the limit but rather the mechanics. Larger alliances certainly could sponsor a push towards pilots getting marauders if they happen to be the best doctrine ship. Granted, the skills and cost will put up a limit, but only to some people.
People said T3s were going to be too expensive, but they're not terribly skill intensive since they only require medium guns and all the skills to get into one are rank 1. Also T3 fleets were never very large, they were more of an elite wing of the fleet flown by high skill pilots to great effect... at least until people figured out how to counter them.
These ships are very highly unlikely to see wide use in large-scale fleet fights due to their relatively low EHP, reliance on local tank while in Bastion, and relatively low damage output for the cost. The E-War immunity may give them a niche use but it's going to be just that, a niche and there's nothing wrong with that. |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
354
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:47:00 -
[1266] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote: I'm glad some other people "get" this.
Ok that's it... I must be really ****** up if a goon says I m right... |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:55:00 -
[1267] - Quote
Since when is my Legion Sleeper Neut safe?! |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:56:00 -
[1268] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote: having more tank makes them NO more usefull for pve, unable to be logied, means they are coffins in fleet fights, look, capital ships that go into triage or siegue often die with multimillion hp, a battleship with 350k ehp and active tanked is paperthin in a fleet fight.
Gee, it's almost like this was intentional on CCP's part so as not to create a new skill-intensive and super expensive "I-win" button for fleet fights 
Ager Agemo wrote:I can already imagine the laughs in any low sec or null sec system, when any idiot goes into bastion mode at a gate after jumping mid camp, the sound will be deafeaning, more or less similar to that of a titan jumping by accident and getting caugh by a hic.
Then that's his fault for not scouting ahead and jumping a lone ship into the middle of a camp. You could just as easily see the tables turned on a small camp using a small group of these akin to a Black-Ops gang. If they can't kill the target then they can be at least forced off the gate.
Ager Agemo wrote:have you owned a marauder? I have owned 3 of 4, maxed skills for all of them, and I can tell you this changes does not address anything at all of their problems, nor for pve nor for pvp, we don't need more tank, we need more firepower, having a trillion tank will not make a golem finish missions faster than a half cost CNR. for what it matters, a normal raven or navy scorp will be as good.
I think you're under-estimating the benefits of solid damage application over raw firepower and the time lost warping out of some missions. If you're blitzing through things and barely killing anything then sure, but that's arguably a problem with how some missions are setup, not with these ships and it's definitely your choice to play in a way that these ships don't cater to.
Making these things mini-DPS gods just makes them flat better than T1 and faction ships, which isn't supposed to be the role of T2 ships. The HACs and AFs being something of a deliberate exception due to their history in Eve. These are supposed to be situationally better which seems to be about where they've landed.
Ager Agemo wrote:and for pvp having more projection wont help, when what we need is more application, most fights are already at short range, due to hics and bubbles, having blasters reach 100000 kilometers does not help, when I need to hit the battleship orbiting me at 3km
the same applies for all the other ships, paladin is just a overtanked apoc, kronos is an armor tanked rokh, and vargur is just a slow tempest pretty much.
Having more inherent tank allows you to fit more damage application. If I don't need to run a second Armor repair module I can fit another damage mod or tracking enhancer. If I don't need a Shield Boost Amp I can fit another Tracking Computer or Target Painter.
I certainly wouldn't say no to a tracking bonus from Bastion but I also don't think it needs it since that seems like it could get a little ridiculous.
On a closing note if you want more damage it looks like that's where the Pirate Battleships are going to land, at the expense of tank and utility.
If you want more agility then that's probably where they're going to stick the Black Ops when they separate them into support and combat hulls. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3306
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:57:00 -
[1269] - Quote
Meyr wrote:What we're about to see is an absolute pestilence of griefer war decs against small industrial corps ransoming their towers in order to not have them blapped.
Unless you have your POS set up as a deathstar, and enough gunners to man all of the guns, these things are going to destroy hisec T2 production - which seems to be the ultimate goal of CCP anyway, so, in that regard, JOB WELL DONE, MORONS! I guess we can all go PVP in T1 hulls with Meta modules fitted, and maybe then 0.0 ratting will be able to pay the bills.
It's not as if you haven't given Industrialists enough grief with gankers being given Tier 3 BC's, stupidly high DPS on Catalysts, ganking out of noob corps, and Tags-for-Sec-Status - now, they'll have to either move to lowsec or 0.0 in order to keep roaming idiots with a handful of Marauders from destroying the assets that allow them to PVP in 0.0 - that is, IF they can find a place in lowsec or 0.0 that won't simply blow them up out of hand.
You really haven't thought the end effect through very well, have you? Who do you think a huge chunk of those stupid hisec carebears are, you cretins? They're 0.0 PVP'ers paying for the ships they lose, you imbeciles. Now, you make 0.0 life more difficult by forcing hisec alts into even more mission running, FW farming, and Incursion running.
Next up: An announcement from these same bass-ackwards, pants-on-head dweebs that, for one of the 2014 patches, hisec mission running, Faction Warfare, and/or Incursions will be made less profitable.
The biggest issue of EVE is the terrible players, and letting them post on the forums. Retards like you drag this game down, and renders these threads useless.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7756
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:57:00 -
[1270] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:If you fly battleships you've BS V, AWU V, EGU V and skills for T2 guns anyway. AWU and EGU are very important support skills. This is a completely erroneous assumption for at least half the people who make up the average null-sec Battleship blob. Most of them probably won't have BS 5, though they may have at least some of their support skills at 5 it's not hugely likely that they'll have them all at 5. Most Alliances could probably get an elite wing of the things but it's questionable how useful that would actually be compared to having those same elite pilots in capital ships or faction battleships which have similar or lower skill requirements and cost. Ralina Foley wrote: Keep in mind, people said that about T3s, but for a little T3s were in, Tengus becoming essentially "Super Drake" fleets. The same could certainly be said of capital fleets that number in 100+. If it wasn't for the bad tracking of dreads, you could easily see them in a fleet doctrine.
EvE has shown that you cannot count on players to be the limit but rather the mechanics. Larger alliances certainly could sponsor a push towards pilots getting marauders if they happen to be the best doctrine ship. Granted, the skills and cost will put up a limit, but only to some people.
People said T3s were going to be too expensive, but they're not terribly skill intensive since they only require medium guns and all the skills to get into one are rank 1. Also T3 fleets were never very large, they were more of an elite wing of the fleet flown by high skill pilots to great effect... at least until people figured out how to counter them. These ships are very highly unlikely to see wide use in large-scale fleet fights due to their relatively low EHP, reliance on local tank while in Bastion, and relatively low damage output for the cost. The E-War immunity may give them a niche use but it's going to be just that, a niche and there's nothing wrong with that.
We had multiple fleets of tengu for well over a year. We still take them with us on deployments. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:00:00 -
[1271] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: We had multiple fleets of tengu for well over a year. We still take them with us on deployments.
I feel this only reinforces my point about them not being that skill intensive.
Also somewhat curious by what you mean when you say "multiple fleets" because I've seen a smattering of those T3 battle reports and the most I ever saw in one fight was maybe 100.
Also is this null-sec or W-space? (assuming Null, just figured I'd ask) |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:04:00 -
[1272] - Quote
To be fair every Ship is dangerous when multiplied by 100 and more. ;) |

baltec1
Bat Country
7757
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:14:00 -
[1273] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote: We had multiple fleets of tengu for well over a year. We still take them with us on deployments.
I feel this only reinforces my point about them not being that skill intensive. Also somewhat curious by what you mean when you say "multiple fleets" because I've seen a smattering of those T3 battle reports and the most I ever saw in one fight was maybe 100. Fully willing to stand corrected here, I'm just curious. Also is this null-sec or W-space? (assuming Null, just figured I'd ask)
Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:17:00 -
[1274] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare.
Color me somewhat skeptical. Got a battle-report or two to throw my way?
I also feel it's worth noting that T3s were at worst half the cost of Marauders and are currently running about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost.
They're also being saved till last on the balancing chopping block which would indicate CCP find them to be a particularly thorny issue which is backed up by comments from CCP and the CSM. |

Meyr
Shiva The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:25:00 -
[1275] - Quote
I'm thinking that a few Carriers and Dreads at all IV, and able to be fully insured, will be preferable to an equal number of Marauders (even at all V), in the eyes of most 0.0 alliance leaders or FC's.
Honestly, I'm not sure why CCP feels the need to go in this direction. There has been ample need for a higher-end PVE ship for years, as evidenced by the way these ships are used. There are any number of hulls that are very good at PVP, but absolutely suck rocks at PVE. If you're okay with that, it stands to reason that you should be equally happy with a bare few ships that are too expensive for true PVP, but work well as a PVE investment.
If you want a way for your Goon buddies to grief hisec carebears, how about simply creating a new hull category, like you did with Tier 3 BC's, and leave what had been a marginally successful hull series focused upon its original purpose - turning rats into ISK.
Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?
The only ones happy with this are your true target audience - Goons, and those like them, who hate everyone they refer to as 'carebears', and who go out of their way to grief them. You've given them the perfect platform with which to grief small, non-aligned, 2 & 3-man industrial corps doing T2 invention in a hisec POS.
Congratulations - you've gone yet norther step along in your journey, not to move more industry out to 0.0 (if the 0.0 playerbase WANTED their industry alts out there, THEY'D BE OUT THERE ALREADY, YOU IDIOTS!), but to drive 0.0 warfare yet one step closer to being affordable, meaning pretty much limited to very few T2 cruiser-class hulls, smaller T2 hulls, and lots of Meta-fitted T1 hulls.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is about to bite you cretins right where it hurts - and, if you can't see it coming, when you insist upon moving in this direction, you deserve to be applying for unemployment. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7757
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:27:00 -
[1276] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote:Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare. Color me somewhat skeptical. Got a battle-report or two to throw my way? I also feel it's worth noting that T3s were at worst half the cost of Marauders and are currently running about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost. They're also being saved till last on the balancing chopping block which would indicate CCP find them to be a particularly thorny issue which is backed up by comments from CCP and the CSM.
Look up any big fight from the middle of last year and just keep going back 2 years. |

Meyr
Shiva The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:41:00 -
[1277] - Quote
Roime wrote:
The biggest issue of EVE is the terrible players, and letting them post on the forums. Retards like you drag this game down, and renders these threads useless.
You're going to have to let history decide who is correct, but, so far, the history of the last two years bears out what I have said, and, since you haven't offered up a reasonable alternative to what I foresee, for now, I'll stick with my prediction.
Griefing small hisec industrial corps by war-deccing them for a ransom on their POS (especially faction POS's) is about to become a cottage industry in Eve, if they release these ships as stated.
As for being a "terrible player" that's simply your little bullshit attempt at an insult. Read. Expand your vocabulary. Connect a few more brain cells. Plan the insult.
Try harder. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
227
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:45:00 -
[1278] - Quote
EXIA MIKOSZ wrote:If you don't Use Tractor on Marauders doesn't mean they are useless for other Players Why many of you Crying about this Tractor Bonus?Its Small thing but very usefull for many of us As you Can See CCP like to keep this so Please.............. Supposedly, T2 is specialized and T3 is general. A marauder should be specialized. The tractor bonus has exactly one use: looting in solo PvE. But that is ultimately limited by your cargo bay. You're essentially asking for a ship bonus that will be used for selectively looting wrecks. Of all the other things that might be added to the ship, that one is pretty minor in the greater scheme of things. Any bonus added should reflect specialization. I'd rather have a reduced sig radius or increased sensor strength than a tractor bonus. Bokononist
-á |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:05:00 -
[1279] - Quote
hah, mod that will reduce to 0 damage caused by overheating at the cost of nanite repair paste as fuel for that mod (cycle say 10-30 sec). there are many good ideas to rebalance marauders. Making them immobile is just one of the worst ones. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3306
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:15:00 -
[1280] - Quote
Meyr wrote:Roime wrote:
The biggest issue of EVE is the terrible players, and letting them post on the forums. Retards like you drag this game down, and renders these threads useless.
You're going to have to let history decide who is correct, but, so far, the history of the last two years bears out what I have said, and, since you haven't offered up a reasonable alternative to what I foresee, for now, I'll stick with my prediction. Griefing small hisec industrial corps by war-deccing them for a ransom on their POS (especially faction POS's) is about to become a cottage industry in Eve, if they release these ships as stated. As for being a "terrible player" that's simply your little bullshit attempt at an insult. Read. Expand your vocabulary. Connect a few more brain cells. Plan the insult. Try harder.
No, you need to try harder and put some facts behind your stupid prediction. Why would that happen?
Your post was full of stupid little insults towards CCP, and that tells a lot about your mental capacity, ******.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:35:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I was just reading a post in the Missions and Complexes forum and something one poster said made me chuckle. The Bastion module should be renamed to "CAM-B" module, because once you activate it it's like saying "Come at me, Bro"  . Could have dropped me a like, Cheers for the acknowledge though ,C-BAM great . If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ju0ZaS
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:54:00 -
[1282] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CueCue QQ wrote:Badly needs a DPS bonus to go with it. For having to be 100% committed to an action for that kind of time, it should AT LEAST be able to kick around 3k DPS, 4k would be better. This is, after all, a highsec/subcapital WH dread. that's just dumb ... don't caps do 2-3k dps?? these are clearly more about tank and range than raw dps
Well if you look at EFT you can make dreads do over 10k dps and tank over 20k dps. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
72
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:03:00 -
[1283] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Look up any big fight from the middle of last year and just keep going back 2 years.
Unfortunately I lack any sort of mental encyclopedia of major null-sec fleet fights and don't know of any sort of comprehensive listing of such things so the best I could do is look up Asakai (warning, lags on load) and look for T3s there. Overall between the two sides there's about 2-3 squads of Legions, half a squad of Protei, a squad and a half of Lokis, and all of *two* Tengus.
Also all of 2 Strategic Cruisers were killed during the entire fight.
Regardless of where these ships were 2 years ago they're certainly not showing up very much now compared to the swarms of Battlecruisers and Battleships that made up Asakai.
Zaxix wrote:EXIA MIKOSZ wrote:If you don't Use Tractor on Marauders doesn't mean they are useless for other Players Why many of you Crying about this Tractor Bonus?Its Small thing but very usefull for many of us As you Can See CCP like to keep this so Please.............. Supposedly, T2 is specialized and T3 is general. A marauder should be specialized. The tractor bonus has exactly one use: looting in solo PvE. But that is ultimately limited by your cargo bay. You're essentially asking for a ship bonus that will be used for selectively looting wrecks. Of all the other things that might be added to the ship, that one is pretty minor in the greater scheme of things. Any bonus added should reflect specialization. I'd rather have a reduced sig radius or increased sensor strength than a tractor bonus.
You seem to defeat your own argument here. The tractor-bonus is a highly specialized bonus and from looking at the numbers and bonuses it doesn't seem to have factored into their balancing of the hulls. It's being left there because it hurts literally nothing by its presence beyond the sensibilities of a few irate forum posters. It's used by people who already own these ships and works somewhat well with the MJD bonus, this is the very definition of specialized.
Quote:Various people claiming that this will be the death of high-sec POSes
Someone with the skills to fly a Marauder most likely already has the capability of rolling over a poorly defended high-sec POS. If there are no defenses to speak of you can do it with an Oracle (I've met or heard of several people who do this) it just takes you about half a day. If you want it to go faster then you can bring friends. Since it takes less to fly Logi than it does a Marauder you're likely going to be able to knock off even well set up POSes.
On the flip-side if you try to knock over a POS in a Marauder it's going to take you a really really long time to kill the thing and during that time the person who owns it can just pack up all the modules and even take down the POS. Alternatively they can find some allies who want to kill an expensive and largely stationary ship and if they're being ransomed it's likely they would even be willing to pay these people for the privilege of killing your Marauder. Overall it seems like this could actually lead to *more* interesting and conflict driving gameplay!  |

Galdrak
Interplanetary Trade Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:08:00 -
[1284] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: As we have hinted several times before, Marauders are next on the Tech2 to-do list. And guess what? It's feedback time!
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As such, after much internal and CSM discussion, we have designed Marauders with two modes of operation, specialized in harassing tactics.
- In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield.
- In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.
This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.
This is a total fail for 2 reasons -FOZZIE and KILL2 are not the people to be rebalancing the marauders, hence this folly of taking these ships into a greater pvp role. you dont send a killer to weed your garden. the marauder is a pve ship, the time and commitment to training all the skills has to make this class of ship the highest edge of battleships, everything else should come way below the level of this class. not everyone playing this game is interested in ship pvp.
i dont have a grudge against fozzie or kill2 they are both very skilled in the art of ship pvp. but the marauder is not a pvp ship, you want to make them pvp ships then open a new factory and build a different version . today i get 1560 dps at 32k with conflag and sentries. after the changes come in i will see just how much dps i have lost in this rebalance.
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:19:00 -
[1285] - Quote
No they dont want to make them a PvP Ship just not completly useless like in the current form.
Quote:We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy. |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:24:00 -
[1286] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:No they dont want to make them a PvP Ship just not completly useless like in the current form.
I think they had so much more possibilities to achieve this goal than introducing a poor mans siege for marauders where on top of this matter its totaly unclear if this will work out well if it hits the actual eve pvp environment. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:25:00 -
[1287] - Quote
Galdrak wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: As we have hinted several times before, Marauders are next on the Tech2 to-do list. And guess what? It's feedback time!
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As such, after much internal and CSM discussion, we have designed Marauders with two modes of operation, specialized in harassing tactics.
- In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield.
- In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.
This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.
This is a total fail for 2 reasons -FOZZIE and KILL2 are not the people to be rebalancing the marauders, hence this folly of taking these ships into a greater pvp role. you dont send a killer to weed your garden. the marauder is a pve ship, the time and commitment to training all the skills has to make this class of ship the highest edge of battleships, everything else should come way below the level of this class. not everyone playing this game is interested in ship pvp.
i dont have a grudge against fozzie or kill2 they are both very skilled in the art of ship pvp. but the marauder is not a pvp ship, you want to make them pvp ships then open a new factory and build a different version . today i get 1560 dps at 32k with conflag and sentries. after the changes come in i will see just how much dps i have lost in this rebalance.
Not to be a **** but I'm doubt you could do better, also they're not locked in a room for the duration of the re-balance, disallowed contact with frends or family till the task is complete, their work is ccp, they are going to be conferring with their co- workers about this as part of a creative redesign process, especially about something as skill and isk intensive as marauders. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:29:00 -
[1288] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:No they dont want to make them a PvP Ship just not completly useless like in the current form.
I think they had so much more possibilities to achieve this goal than introducing a poor mans siege for marauders where on top of this matter its totaly unclear if this will work out well if it hits the actual eve pvp environment.
Give me ONE.
Their goal isnt only to bring some Balance (which impossible) but also Fun and fresh mechanics.
Now its your Turn. |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:47:00 -
[1289] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:No they dont want to make them a PvP Ship just not completly useless like in the current form.
I think they had so much more possibilities to achieve this goal than introducing a poor mans siege for marauders where on top of this matter its totaly unclear if this will work out well if it hits the actual eve pvp environment. Give me ONE. Their goal isnt only to bring some Balance (which impossible) but also Fun and fresh mechanics. Now its your Turn.
Improve sensor strength. or dmg projection. Increase base resistence or give them a HeatDMG Bonus. There are alot of viable options here. Choose one or all of them if you wish. What ever you need to buff them significantly but at the same time prevent them to be op.
You`re right with saying its nice to have some new mechanics to play with. But in my opinion it would be much tougher to introduce an new ship class for this experimental gameplay rather than messing around with this kind of established marauder gameplay. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1185
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:52:00 -
[1290] - Quote
Meyr wrote:I'm thinking that a few Carriers and Dreads at all IV, and able to be fully insured, will be preferable to an equal number of Marauders (even at all V), in the eyes of most 0.0 alliance leaders or FC's.
Honestly, I'm not sure why CCP feels the need to go in this direction. There has been ample need for a higher-end PVE ship for years, as evidenced by the way these ships are used. There are any number of hulls that are very good at PVP, but absolutely suck rocks at PVE. If you're okay with that, it stands to reason that you should be equally happy with a bare few ships that are too expensive for true PVP, but work well as a PVE investment.
If you want a way for your Goon buddies to grief hisec carebears, how about simply creating a new hull category, like you did with Tier 3 BC's, and leave what had been a marginally successful hull series focused upon its original purpose - turning rats into ISK.
Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?
The only ones happy with this are your true target audience - Goons, and those like them, who hate everyone they refer to as 'carebears', and who go out of their way to grief them. You've given them the perfect platform with which to grief small, non-aligned, 2 & 3-man industrial corps doing T2 invention in a hisec POS.
The Law of Unintended Consequences - look it up.
Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this. The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE. He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to) This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic.
I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour.
When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets.
This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing) Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:00:00 -
[1291] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote:Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare. Color me somewhat skeptical. Got a battle-report or two to throw my way? I also feel it's worth noting that T3s were at worst half the cost of Marauders and are currently running about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost. They're also being saved till last on the balancing chopping block which would indicate CCP find them to be a particularly thorny issue which is backed up by comments from CCP and the CSM.
Tengu doctrine has long been a CFC favourite and they did indeed field hundreds at a time. Loki doctrines have also been popular in null. Tempest Fleet Issues were also a CFC doctrine until they used them against BL and 401k to defend a titan production POS and lost the fleet and the in-build super. They were quickly phased out although i suspect not for reasons of cost. (more likely how easily they were countered / replacing them via FW limits supply/ it was hugely embarrassing loss) pick one or more of the above or add your own flavour. We are talking about large null entities with sov bills of hundreds of bill isk a month and incomes of hundreds of bill per month with alliance wallets in the trillions. The cost of a doctrine is worth it if you can use it to successfully and efficiently use it to hold your moons, sov assets etc. If these ships can be used to create real battlefield advantages in certain situation they will be used in those situations and potentially in vast numbers. For example people like to bring a couple of hundred celestis as a support fleet and thus neutralise the opposing fleets ability to either use logi or to apply dps. These ships with ewar immunity and huge local tank could quickly turn such support fleet to ash allowing the conventional fleet to operate normally once more. The warlords of null will decide if this is worth it /a bad idea/ whatever but i throw it out as an idea of how people might be thinking. |

Max50
Parental Control
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:08:00 -
[1292] - Quote
So if someone was blitzing lvl5s in a golem and a logi (quite easilly i might add). He can now throw away the logi and run 2 missions with same chars. Wich means that before "bastion mode" he was doing 600-800k LP per hour and now he will be capable of doing 1,2-1,5 MIL LP per hour.
Isn't that sweet? |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:12:00 -
[1293] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Meyr wrote:I'm thinking that a few Carriers and Dreads at all IV, and able to be fully insured, will be preferable to an equal number of Marauders (even at all V), in the eyes of most 0.0 alliance leaders or FC's.
Honestly, I'm not sure why CCP feels the need to go in this direction. There has been ample need for a higher-end PVE ship for years, as evidenced by the way these ships are used. There are any number of hulls that are very good at PVP, but absolutely suck rocks at PVE. If you're okay with that, it stands to reason that you should be equally happy with a bare few ships that are too expensive for true PVP, but work well as a PVE investment.
If you want a way for your Goon buddies to grief hisec carebears, how about simply creating a new hull category, like you did with Tier 3 BC's, and leave what had been a marginally successful hull series focused upon its original purpose - turning rats into ISK.
Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?
The only ones happy with this are your true target audience - Goons, and those like them, who hate everyone they refer to as 'carebears', and who go out of their way to grief them. You've given them the perfect platform with which to grief small, non-aligned, 2 & 3-man industrial corps doing T2 invention in a hisec POS.
The Law of Unintended Consequences - look it up. Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this. The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE. He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to) This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic. I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour. When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets. This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing) Some one slap him, he's hysterical. Its a rebalancing man, calm down
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:25:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Meyr wrote:I'm thinking that a few Carriers and Dreads at all IV, and able to be fully insured, will be preferable to an equal number of Marauders (even at all V), in the eyes of most 0.0 alliance leaders or FC's.
Honestly, I'm not sure why CCP feels the need to go in this direction. There has been ample need for a higher-end PVE ship for years, as evidenced by the way these ships are used. There are any number of hulls that are very good at PVP, but absolutely suck rocks at PVE. If you're okay with that, it stands to reason that you should be equally happy with a bare few ships that are too expensive for true PVP, but work well as a PVE investment.
If you want a way for your Goon buddies to grief hisec carebears, how about simply creating a new hull category, like you did with Tier 3 BC's, and leave what had been a marginally successful hull series focused upon its original purpose - turning rats into ISK.
Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?
The only ones happy with this are your true target audience - Goons, and those like them, who hate everyone they refer to as 'carebears', and who go out of their way to grief them. You've given them the perfect platform with which to grief small, non-aligned, 2 & 3-man industrial corps doing T2 invention in a hisec POS.
The Law of Unintended Consequences - look it up. Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this. The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE. He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to) This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic. I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour. When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets. This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing)
he is so right |

baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:29:00 -
[1295] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:No they dont want to make them a PvP Ship just not completly useless like in the current form.
I think they had so much more possibilities to achieve this goal than introducing a poor mans siege for marauders where on top of this matter its totaly unclear if this will work out well if it hits the actual eve pvp environment. Give me ONE. Their goal isnt only to bring some Balance (which impossible) but also Fun and fresh mechanics. Now its your Turn. Improve sensor strength. Or dmg projection. Increase base resistence or give them a HeatDMG Bonus. There are alot of viable options here. Choose one or all of them if you wish. What ever you need to buff them significantly but at the same time prevent them from being overpowered. You`re right with saying its nice to have some new mechanics to play with. But in my opinion it would be much tougher to introduce an new ship class for this experimental gameplay rather than messing around with this kind of established marauder gameplay.
You are getting improved sensor strength, damage projection and resists... |

Frenghiz Khan
Twisted Alchemy Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:36:00 -
[1296] - Quote
Really doesn't make sense to reduce the drone bay space so drastically on these big ships.. it's nonsense, please don't do it, the reduction in drone bandwidth is just as ridiculous. |

LoanWolf Tivianne
Ace's And 8's
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:37:00 -
[1297] - Quote
life in c2 and 3 just went to hell yea my spelling sucks so do you go back to work school teacher your not wanted here |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:47:00 -
[1298] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote:Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare. Color me somewhat skeptical. Got a battle-report or two to throw my way? I also feel it's worth noting that T3s were at worst half the cost of Marauders and are currently running about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost. They're also being saved till last on the balancing chopping block which would indicate CCP find them to be a particularly thorny issue which is backed up by comments from CCP and the CSM.
I've seen both CFC and -A- fill multiple fleets with tengus..
...and yeah a normal fleet tengu runs right around 550mil |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:54:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote: Tengu doctrine has long been a CFC favourite and they did indeed field hundreds at a time. Loki doctrines have also been popular in null. Tempest Fleet Issues were also a CFC doctrine until they used them against BL and 401k to defend a titan production POS and lost the fleet and the in-build super. They were quickly phased out although i suspect not for reasons of cost. (more likely how easily they were countered / replacing them via FW limits supply/ it was hugely embarrassing loss) pick one or more of the above or add your own flavour. We are talking about large null entities with sov bills of hundreds of bill isk a month and incomes of hundreds of bill per month with alliance wallets in the trillions. The cost of a doctrine is worth it if you can use it to successfully and efficiently use it to hold your moons, sov assets etc. If these ships can be used to create real battlefield advantages in certain situation they will be used in those situations and potentially in vast numbers. For example people like to bring a couple of hundred celestis as a support fleet and thus neutralise the opposing fleets ability to either use logi or to apply dps. These ships with ewar immunity and huge local tank could quickly turn such support fleet to ash allowing the conventional fleet to operate normally once more. The warlords of null will decide if this is worth it /a bad idea/ whatever but i throw it out as an idea of how people might be thinking.
I think I'm going to go with "and that's fine" I just don't think it's likely to happen with these. Since it looks like CCP are going to rebalance Pirate Battleships more for raw DPS and a bit of maneuverability I'd say that they're a more likely candidate for the next FOTM fleet than these are. We're already seeing Rattlesnakes being used in relatively small numbers. As you said though, the CFC phased out the Tempest Fleet Issue doctrine for a reason. On the flip-side we've seen T1 BS fleets survive through everything the Meta has thrown at them.
I think the big difference between Marauders and T3s, Faction ships, and various Battlecruiser doctrines is that the latter are relatively low skill where as the former are going to be fairly SP intensive to fly well. Regardless of cost you still need pilots with the SP to make a doctrine work. So, even if someone does find a hilariously powerful fleet role for these ships (which I'm having a hard time believing right at the moment) the skills required to fit and fly them effectively are going to stop them from being fielded in large numbers by most parties.
If they end up filling up a few squads in a specialist role in fleets then... well great? They've found a Niche PvP roll in the things that make Eve famous, large fleet fights. Why should anyone be mad about that? If you don't like them then don't train for them. |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:55:00 -
[1300] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
You are getting improved sensor strength, damage projection and resists...
Well. Ok lets clarify that. U dont get more sensor strength. Ur base sensor strength is exactly the same as befor. U got EWAR immunity in siege mode. That seems to have a simmilar effect but just works under completely other circumstances. Second, u gain range right. But if i sai dmg projection im not talking about range, which u already had alot. Im talking about tracking and missile dmg application to fast and smaller targets. Again thats not what u can expect from the siege mode. Third, the ressistence gain again u only get in siege mode.
At a first glace this sounds not terribly bad. But u have to do a hughe tradeoff in moveability to get these bonuses. A tradeoff which i gues u cant afford in common pvp situations. But thats allready been said. |
|

Sabriz Adoudel
Oppan Ganknam Style
716
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:08:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Still think these should have the option to fit something akin to a dreadnought seige module (as an alternative to the bastion module) to make them into POS bashing machines that can be used in C1-C3 w-space and highsec.
Otherwise loving the idea. Miner euthanization expert. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:08:00 -
[1302] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:baltec1 wrote:
You are getting improved sensor strength, damage projection and resists...
Well. Ok lets clarify that. U dont get more sensor strength. Ur base sensor strength is exactly the same as befor. U got EWAR immunity in siege mode. That seems to have a simmilar effect but just works under completely other circumstances. Second, u gain range right. But if i say dmg projection im not talking about range, which u already had alot. Im talking about tracking and missile dmg application to fast and smaller targets. Again thats not what u can expect from the siege mode. Third, the ressistence gain again u only get in siege mode. At a first glace this sounds not terribly bad. But u have to do a hughe tradeoff in moveability to get these bonuses. A tradeoff which i gues u cant afford in common pvp situations. But thats allready been said.
So, first off damage projection and damage application are two entirely different things.
Damage projection is how far you can project damage effectively. For turrets this is Optimal and Falloff, for missiles it's Flight Time and Velocity.
Damage application is how effectively you can apply damage to a target, for turrets this is tracking and resolution, for missiles it's explosion radius and velocity. The Golem is currently getting the short end of the stick here but that changes significantly if we get Missile damage application and projection modules like Rise hinted at.
As for the trade-offs, well yes, these aren't supposed to be PvP god-boats. Ytterbium flat out says that they're only supposed to have Niche PvP roles. The Bastion and MJD bonuses give them a unique and solid mechanic for PvE that can be applied in interesting and niche ways to PvP. The generalist DPS boats are slated to be the pirate battleships and the Black-Ops are going to be filling another, probably more PvP focused niche, likely focusing on mobility and speed given their already existing bonuses but maybe incorporating more off the wall stuff given that they're very infrequently used in combat and CCP has already talked about splitting the hull class into supporting and combat variants. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:08:00 -
[1303] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote: Tengu doctrine has long been a CFC favourite and they did indeed field hundreds at a time. Loki doctrines have also been popular in null. Tempest Fleet Issues were also a CFC doctrine until they used them against BL and 401k to defend a titan production POS and lost the fleet and the in-build super. They were quickly phased out although i suspect not for reasons of cost. (more likely how easily they were countered / replacing them via FW limits supply/ it was hugely embarrassing loss) pick one or more of the above or add your own flavour. We are talking about large null entities with sov bills of hundreds of bill isk a month and incomes of hundreds of bill per month with alliance wallets in the trillions. The cost of a doctrine is worth it if you can use it to successfully and efficiently use it to hold your moons, sov assets etc. If these ships can be used to create real battlefield advantages in certain situation they will be used in those situations and potentially in vast numbers. For example people like to bring a couple of hundred celestis as a support fleet and thus neutralise the opposing fleets ability to either use logi or to apply dps. These ships with ewar immunity and huge local tank could quickly turn such support fleet to ash allowing the conventional fleet to operate normally once more. The warlords of null will decide if this is worth it /a bad idea/ whatever but i throw it out as an idea of how people might be thinking.
I think I'm going to go with "and that's fine" I just don't think it's likely to happen with these. Since it looks like CCP are going to rebalance Pirate Battleships more for raw DPS and a bit of maneuverability I'd say that they're a more likely candidate for the next FOTM fleet than these are. We're already seeing Rattlesnakes being used in relatively small numbers. As you said though, the CFC phased out the Tempest Fleet Issue doctrine for a reason. On the flip-side we've seen T1 BS fleets survive through everything the Meta has thrown at them. I think the big difference between Marauders and T3s, Faction ships, and various Battlecruiser doctrines is that the latter are relatively low skill where as the former are going to be fairly SP intensive to fly well. Regardless of cost you still need pilots with the SP to make a doctrine work. So, even if someone does find a hilariously powerful fleet role for these ships (which I'm having a hard time believing right at the moment) the skills required to fit and fly them effectively are going to stop them from being fielded in large numbers by most parties. If they end up filling up a few squads in a specialist role in fleets then... well great? They've found a Niche PvP roll in the things that make Eve famous, large fleet fights. Why should anyone be mad about that? If you don't like them then don't train for them.
You see rattlers because they are far and away the cheapest Pirate BS because generally people don't rat with them, it takes forever and tengu does it faster (amoung other things) when you have 1-1.5 bill hull prices for the rest of them you can't really FTOM, there simply isn' the market to support losses.
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:14:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote: below...
My point is, you will get your :
"Improve sensor strength. Or dmg projection. Increase base resistence or give them a HeatDMG Bonus. There are alot of viable options here. Choose one or all of them if you wish. What ever you need to buff them significantly but at the same time prevent them from being overpowered."
With the upcoming balancing of the Pirate Ships they will become this, so why do we need 5 different Ships Types (T1 especially Tier 3, T2 Marauders with Sensor Boost/ Black Ops after Balancing, Faction after Balancing and Navy Battleships) which can all run PvE just fine, PvP good enough? THEN introduce ANOTHER BS Ship only for "Bastion" Test...
You want a High Damage Application Battleship for 1 Bill with great tank and decent speed, for easy PvE and good PvP? Grab your favorite Pirate Ship, Rattle, Vindi, Nightmare, Machariel or The Omnomnom Baal. Its to expensive? Ok, grab one of the awesome Navy Ships instead! Still to expensive? Try one of the 12(!) nice Battleships.
Not enough? We still have 4 more Marauders left and another 4 Black Ops.
Oh and intrudoce 4 new Bastion Battleships to.
Come on, how much ships do u really need?! |

baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:21:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:baltec1 wrote:
You are getting improved sensor strength, damage projection and resists...
Well. Ok lets clarify that. U dont get more sensor strength. Ur base sensor strength is exactly the same as befor. U got EWAR immunity in siege mode. That seems to have a simmilar effect but just works under completely other circumstances. Second, u gain range right. But if i say dmg projection im not talking about range, which u already had alot. Im talking about tracking and missile dmg application to fast and smaller targets. Again thats not what u can expect from the siege mode. Third, the ressistence gain again u only get in siege mode. At a first glace this sounds not terribly bad. But u have to do a hughe tradeoff in moveability to get these bonuses. A tradeoff which i gues u cant afford in common pvp situations. But thats allready been said.
Park it on a station or gate, blap target, mjd away, repeat or gtfo.
For small fleet work it looks good.
Being imune to E-war is as good as it gets for sensor strength. Longer falloff and optimal will mean more damage and those extra resists are nice. Sitting still for a minute is not that bad of a drawback for these things, afterall, your mjd will be ready to go the second you come out of mancannon mode. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:24:00 -
[1306] - Quote
I think they are able to tank gate sentrys so fine, they will become some nice tool for gate camping, especially in a well made gate camp. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:31:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Onictus wrote: You see rattlers because they are far and away the cheapest Pirate BS because generally people don't rat with them, it takes forever and tengu does it faster (amoung other things) when you have 1-1.5 bill hull prices for the rest of them you can't really FTOM, there simply isn' the market to support losses.
Since Marauders currently run you about .8-1.1 billion and demand (and price) for them seems like it's going to shoot up after these changes that only supports the other half of my argument that there's very little risk of these becoming FOTM in Null (or anywhere else in PvP).
baltec1 wrote: Park it on a station or gate, blap target, mjd away, repeat or gtfo.
For small fleet work it looks good.
Being imune to E-war is as good as it gets for sensor strength. Longer falloff and optimal will mean more damage and those extra resists are nice. Sitting still for a minute is not that bad of a drawback for these things, afterall, your mjd will be ready to go the second you come out of mancannon mode.
Except that these ships don't really have the DPS to "blap" a target. They can tank very well but they're not really "blap" ships.
They lack the sensor strength to lock anything they can kill in one shot before it warps off from a a gate or station and they can't hold anything they can lock fast enough for a long enough period to kill it.
If they've got something else holding the target down then you're just as well off in an Attack Battlecruiser or two since most things won't be able to hit you or will be too busy trying to peal your tackle off them so they can escape.
Also the MJD takes at least 9 seconds to spool up meaning you're spending at least that long there without your mega-tank. You know, unless you get scrammed.
Lephia DeGrande wrote:I think they are able to tank gate sentrys so fine, they will become some nice tool for gate camping, especially in a well made gate camp.
As opposed to any other battleship with Logi support and the ability to GTFO without 60 seconds notice? In my experience Logi is generally one of the hallmarks of a well-made gate-camp. |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:31:00 -
[1308] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:baltec1 wrote:
You are getting improved sensor strength, damage projection and resists...
Well. Ok lets clarify that. U dont get more sensor strength. Ur base sensor strength is exactly the same as befor. U got EWAR immunity in siege mode. That seems to have a simmilar effect but just works under completely other circumstances. Second, u gain range right. But if i say dmg projection im not talking about range, which u already had alot. Im talking about tracking and missile dmg application to fast and smaller targets. Again thats not what u can expect from the siege mode. Third, the ressistence gain again u only get in siege mode. At a first glace this sounds not terribly bad. But u have to do a hughe tradeoff in moveability to get these bonuses. A tradeoff which i gues u cant afford in common pvp situations. But thats allready been said. So, first off damage projection and damage application are two entirely different things. Damage projection is how far you can project damage effectively. For turrets this is Optimal and Falloff, for missiles it's Flight Time and Velocity. Damage application is how effectively you can apply damage to a target, for turrets this is tracking and resolution, for missiles it's explosion radius and velocity. The Golem is currently getting the short end of the stick here but that changes significantly if we get Missile damage application and projection modules like Rise hinted at.
Yea i know range is not tracking etc. Thanks. Lets not discuss over the fakt, that i mistakenly used the wrong term for tracking and exp velocity/signature radius of missiles. :D Appologises for that. I meant to say "dmg application" in your terms.
I dont know of any hint about new missile "tracking" mods. Maybe u can provide a source for that? Or do you mean the proposed tracking computer chage which maybe will affect missile stats in the future?
Quote: As for the trade-offs, well yes, these aren't supposed to be PvP god-boats. Ytterbium flat out says that they're only supposed to have Niche PvP roles. The Bastion and MJD bonuses give them a unique and solid mechanic for PvE that can be applied in interesting and niche ways to PvP.
Yea. Thats the way CCP seems to go. I only doubt that this will play out well in PVE and PVP. As i said i imagine, that the bonuses i talked about (and without this siege mode which forces you to brick mode) are much much stronger and more suitable to achieve better performence in PVE as well as more useability in PVP.
But i guess thats highly subjective and depends strongly on personel EVE experience and favored gameplay styles. But thats how it is. I dont like the changes very much and im sad that the current Marauders have to suffer in favor for a siege mode and a mjd bonus among which neither the one or the other fitts the current marauder very well.
By the way, this would be much more beareable if they put this new fency stuff on top of the curren marauders without nerfing their base stats compared to the actuall stats. I dont se how the old speed and dronebandwith/bay interfere with the proposed siege mode and MJD Bonus in a way that makes them to strong. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:33:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Unfortunately I lack any sort of mental encyclopedia of major null-sec fleet fights and don't know of any sort of comprehensive listing of such things so the best I could do is look up Asakai (warning, lags on load) and look for T3s there. Overall between the two sides there's about 2-3 squads of Legions, half a squad of Protei, a squad and a half of Lokis, and all of *two* Tengus.
Look at battle reports from 2011 and 2012
One example of kill involving a lot of Tengus: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9560009&nolimit
http://jestertrek.blogspot.fi/2011/04/thundercats-are-go.html |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:34:00 -
[1310] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Onictus wrote: You see rattlers because they are far and away the cheapest Pirate BS because generally people don't rat with them, it takes forever and tengu does it faster (amoung other things) when you have 1-1.5 bill hull prices for the rest of them you can't really FTOM, there simply isn' the market to support losses.
Since Marauders currently run you about .8-1.1 billion and demand (and price) for them seems like it's going to shoot up after these changes that only supports the other half of my argument that there's very little risk of these becoming FOTM in Null (or anywhere else in PvP).
Other than bait I can'timagine what you would use them for.
Local reps mean that they are going to be next to useless in null in and of their own, fly around low in something like that and you will draw everyone with an intel channel for like 3 regions around.
Without the basion mod you have a something that a T1 BS does better, so its sort of a why bother thing in my book. |
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:44:00 -
[1311] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: As for the trade-offs, well yes, these aren't supposed to be PvP god-boats. Ytterbium flat out says that they're only supposed to have Niche PvP roles. The Bastion and MJD bonuses give them a unique and solid mechanic for PvE that can be applied in interesting and niche ways to PvP. The generalist DPS boats are slated to be the pirate battleships and the Black-Ops are going to be filling another, probably more PvP focused niche, likely focusing on mobility and speed given their already existing bonuses but maybe incorporating more off the wall stuff given that they're very infrequently used in combat and CCP has already talked about splitting the hull class into supporting and combat variants.
A niche is fine, aslong as it's having its use.
Bastion and MJD however, are too much of a niche role (atleast for PvE). You don't need an MJD, nor a 100 rep-bonus, nor an increase in Range (especially on the golem) in PVE - especially with the inherent drawbacks (no mobility/RR in bastion - MJD makes salvaging impossible).
With this changes, Marauders become valid for vary few kinds of PVE.
1.) are situations where you need a lot of tank, and those usually happen in low/null/incursions only. For low/Null, you would be crazy if you would bring a bastioned marauder into a 10/10 or similar - yeah, you might be able to do it, but you increase the chance of getting caught. Would you do this if you have saver alternatives?
Incursions are the same - wow, you could do vanguards in bastion, but why? It is impractical (no RR), and you would actually slow down the whole fleet. Again, why?
2.) are situations where you are e-war'ed a lot. Those do happen (sansha blockade, I'm talking to ya) rarely. Possible that "The Blockade" in it's variants is the only mission where bastion is actually useful.
And that's it. You probably noticed that I haven't said a word about the MJD - this is because it's absolutely useless in PvE for well-skilled pilots (which Marauder-pilots need to be) - even more if the ship doesn't have the capability for sentries..
At this point, one does have to question why it has to be a "one in a million"-kind of niche? Why should this increase their usage over Faction/pirate BS? For me, I will stick to my CNR + Noctis combo, as it does the job better (especially with the nerfs in mobility, and the inherent drawback of having 4 launchers only [Defenders!]).
I will probably use my golem for the fun of transforming though :D
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:47:00 -
[1312] - Quote
Quote:baltec1 wrote: Park it on a station or gate, blap target, mjd away, repeat or gtfo.
For small fleet work it looks good.
Being imune to E-war is as good as it gets for sensor strength. Longer falloff and optimal will mean more damage and those extra resists are nice. Sitting still for a minute is not that bad of a drawback for these things, afterall, your mjd will be ready to go the second you come out of mancannon mode.
Except that these ships don't really have the DPS to "blap" a target. They can tank very well but they're not really "blap" ships. Also the MJD takes at least 9 seconds to spool up meaning you're spending at least that long there without your mega-tank. You know, unless you get scrammed. .
A group of 3 to 5 of these fitted with a sebo and a few tackle frigates will be a good small gang. A 55km blaster mega sounds very interesting to me.
|

Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:49:00 -
[1313] - Quote
Can we jump trough WH with bastion active? This would be nice alternative to using Capitals as WH closers Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:00:00 -
[1314] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote: Yea i know range is not tracking etc. Thanks. Lets not discuss over the fakt, that i mistakenly used the wrong term for tracking and exp velocity/signature radius of missiles. :D Appologises for that. I meant to say "dmg application" in your terms.
I dont know of any hint about new missile "tracking" mods. Maybe u can provide a source for that? Or do you mean the proposed tracking computer chage which maybe will affect missile stats in the future?
Ask and you shall receive. CCP Rise on the future of missiles.
Mc Cormeg wrote:Yea. Thats the way CCP seems to go. I only doubt that this will play out well in PVE and PVP. As i said i imagine, that the bonuses i talked about (and without this siege mode which forces you to brick mode) are much much stronger and more suitable to achieve better performence in PVE as well as more useability in PVP.
Yup, which is why I said they're not supposed to be PvP god-ships. These are not supposed to be Battleship sized HACs and begging for just buffed up T2 versions of T1 Battleships is not going to go anywhere. I rather suspect that begging for the web bonus to come back is similarly not going to happen. It's way too powerful for no trade-offs.
Mc Cormeg wrote:But i guess thats highly subjective and depends strongly on personel EVE experience and favored gameplay styles. But thats how it is. I dont like the changes very much and im sad that the current Marauders have to suffer in favor for a siege mode and a mjd bonus among which neither the one or the other fitts the current marauder very well.
By the way, this would be much more beareable if they put this new fency stuff on top of the curren marauders without nerfing their base stats compared to the actuall stats. I dont se how the old speed and dronebandwith/bay interfere with the proposed siege mode and MJD Bonus in a way that makes them to strong.
I think off all the complaints and suggestions I've seen the drone-bay one carries the most weight. The bandwidth can go, these ships shouldn't be getting a good chunk of DPS from drones, but not being able to carry more than 2 flights of Light Drones is really annoying for missions and pretty much anything PvE related. They may be concerned about these ships being able to easily swat tackle-frigates in PvP but I don't see that changing whether it's 2 flights of Light Drones or 4.
The speed nerf is probably to reinforce differences with ships that we haven't seen yet, namely the revamped Pirate Battleships and Black-Ops Battleships and as a trade-off for the MJD bonus (which is a pretty strong mobility buff in missions and scan-sites). |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:13:00 -
[1315] - Quote
@ CCP i dont think marauders need to be re balanced as they make good pve based weapons, instead maybe make t2 versions of the tier3 BS, since the bastion module looks more like a "combat" module rather than an "attack" module so if you did it with the tier3 bs it would be more in-keeping with the "tierticle regime" |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:14:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Each of those fights has, at most, a Wing of T3s on any one side.
Also one of the participants is Pandemic Legion, who are hardly an average case for Null Sec fleet doctrines.
baltec1 wrote: A group of 3 to 5 of these fitted with a sebo and a few tackle frigates will be a good small gang. A 55km blaster mega sounds very interesting to me.
Interesting maybe, but I'm going to have to see it in action before I'll view it as more than a gimmick that can be done just as well if not better for cheaper. For a start a Rokh with a few Tracking Computers can hit almost that far in Optimal + Falloff with Null.
Grombutz wrote: A niche is fine, aslong as it's having its use.
Bastion and MJD however, are too much of a niche role (atleast for PvE). You don't need an MJD, nor a 100 rep-bonus, nor an increase in Range (especially on the golem) in PVE - especially with the inherent drawbacks (no mobility/RR in bastion - MJD makes salvaging impossible).
With this changes, Marauders become valid for vary few kinds of PVE.
1.) are situations where you need a lot of tank, and those usually happen in low/null/incursions only. For low/Null, you would be crazy if you would bring a bastioned marauder into a 10/10 or similar - yeah, you might be able to do it, but you increase the chance of getting caught. Would you do this if you have saver alternatives?
Incursions are the same - wow, you could do vanguards in bastion, but why? It is impractical (no RR), and you would actually slow down the whole fleet thanks to waiting for bastion to run out and the lack of a damage bonus. Again, why?
2.) are situations where you are e-war'ed a lot. Those do happen (sansha blockade, I'm talking to ya) rarely. Possible that "The Blockade" in it's variants is the only mission where bastion is actually useful.
And that's it. You probably noticed that I haven't said a word about the MJD - this is because it's absolutely useless in PvE for well-skilled pilots (which Marauder-pilots need to be) - even more if the ship doesn't have the capability for sentries..
At this point, one does have to question why it has to be a "one in a million"-kind of niche? Why should this increase their usage over Faction/pirate BS? For me, I will stick to my CNR + Noctis combo, as it does the job better (especially with the nerfs in mobility, and the inherent drawback of having 4 launchers only [Defenders!]).
I will probably use my golem for the fun of transforming though :D
Try thinking of it like this. You don't need to fit a massive tank, you can strip modules that are otherwise required for a mission like a Shield Boost Amp for a Golem off and replace them with damage application mods like extra Target Painters, missile damage app mods if we ever get them, cap mods, or prop mods.
The extra range can make Torp fits more viable, especially combine with the Target Painter bonus and freed up slots.
E-War is fairly common is missions and sites as well, and while it's not crippling it cuts down on completion times and is very frustrating. The Bastion mode E-War immunity lets you get around this and speeds up your mission or site times. It also gets rid of a frequent complaint with Marauders without giving them a flat buff for PvP.
The Defender Missiles point is very valid and I'd like to see something like a Missile HP buff added either to the Golem or to Bastion to make up for it since that seems to really hinder the ship at least with Cruise-Missile setups.
Overall though if you want to stick to your CNR that's your choice, I think if the ship is completely too good to resist then CCP have over-buffed it. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:22:00 -
[1317] - Quote
@ CCP i dont think marauders need to be re balanced as they make good pve "specialised based weapons, and can be used in pvp , instead maybe make t2 versions of the tier3 BS, since the bastion module looks more like a "combat" module rather than an "attack" module so if you did it with the tier3 bs it would be more in-keeping with the "tierticle regime"
+ it would be an awesome sight seeing the Abaddon transform |

RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:28:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Nice idea I suppose - "mini dreads"
but no DPS bonus for committing so much isk to the field??
Also... wtf CCP.. no web bonus.. that was the ONE THING that made the Paladin awsome... give it back nooawww please!! |

RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:30:00 -
[1319] - Quote
oh one more thing..
..there goes CCP again, removing all hope for ::SOLO:: pvp..
..scrubs |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:31:00 -
[1320] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Each of those fights has, at most, a Wing of T3s on any one side.
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_battle.php?start_time=2011-07-08%2022:35:00&end_time=2011-07-08%2023:54:00&system=8R-RTB
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_battle.php?start_time=2012-01-11%2016:45:00&end_time=2012-01-11%2018:20:00&system=LXQ2-T
There's more. |
|

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:34:00 -
[1321] - Quote
Heres another idea... instead of going for some off the wall skill to use the "Bastion" module, just make it require Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration IV if you really want to build a stepping stone for the capital ships (Just like how the Widow requires Jump Drive Calibration IV).
EDIT: Black Ops in General, gah the curse of flying Caldari. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:38:00 -
[1322] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Heres another idea... instead of going for some off the wall skill to use the "Bastion" module, just make it require Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration IV if you really want to build a stepping stone for the capital ships (Just like how the Widow requires Jump Drive Calibration IV).
EDIT: Black Ops in General, gah the curse of flying Caldari.
Better that it require level 4 of a Rank 5 skill than of a Rank 8 one, especially since not everyone training this thing is going to end up flying Dreadnaughts.
Neither of those contain anything :| (insert joke about cloaky T3 fight here) |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:45:00 -
[1323] - Quote
Meyr wrote: Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?
Learn trigonometry. Two MJD jumps lets you lend anywhere within 200km of your start point. If the gate is 60km away, jump out at an angle to the line between your position and then back onto the gate. It'll take a bit of practice to get the angles right, but this is EVE and it's supposed to require player skill, right?
|

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:03:00 -
[1324] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Neither of those contain anything :| (insert joke about cloaky T3 fight here)
Now that you have seen at least one battle report with a lot of Tengus it's not enough. You want to see battle reports with 100 cloaky Tengus? |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:10:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Neither of those contain anything :| (insert joke about cloaky T3 fight here) Now that you have seen at least one battle report with a lot of Tengus it's not enough. You want to see battle reports with 100 cloaky Tengus? id want to see that If in doubt...do...excessively. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:15:00 -
[1326] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Interesting
Its the rep bonus that makes the package. Remember reps are also getting buffed so these things will be getting a monster of a tank while in stand your ground mode. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:17:00 -
[1327] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Neither of those contain anything :| (insert joke about cloaky T3 fight here) Now that you have seen at least one battle report with a lot of Tengus it's not enough. You want to see battle reports with 100 cloaky Tengus? id want to see that
You can start with those PL reports.
For those who don't know how to read them: click Battle Overview |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:17:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote: A group of 3 to 5 of these fitted with a sebo and a few tackle frigates will be a good small gang. A 55km blaster mega sounds very interesting to me.
Interesting maybe, but I'm going to have to see it in action before I'll view it as more than a gimmick that can be done just as well if not better for cheaper. For a start a Rokh with a few Tracking Computers can hit almost that far in Optimal + Falloff with Null.
But not as far, and not nearly as hard, and not with the tracking bonus, can't MJD as fast and has nothing close to that active tank. But yeah, it's cheaper.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:33:00 -
[1329] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Interesting
Its the rep bonus that makes the package. Remember reps are also getting buffed so these things will be getting a monster of a tank while in stand your ground mode.
CCP are brute force changing the meta for fleet fights away from big logi gangs over to cap unstable locally repped ships. In a certain way of speaking this will heal many wounds that have been opened over the years but it will promote alpha fleets more than ever OTOH.
Expect to see fleets of armageddons and maelstroms supplemented by damping recons. Combination of factors when inckuding the changes to defensive strategies I can only envisage this benefitting big alliances the most. At least now smaller entities will have an slightly easier time thanks to increasing vulnerability to cap warfare and generally lower ehp values Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Vtra
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:50:00 -
[1330] - Quote
High Energy Physics... seriously? How about not screwing up my "no Indy" Train and make High Energy 4 - Logistics 4.....
Thoughts? |
|

stoicfaux
3076
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:50:00 -
[1331] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
[list]
We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. So... why not just require Tactical Weapon Configuration? Marauders already require AWU 5 which is TWC's prereq. TWC is the siege module skill. TWC is a needed stepping stone for all dreads. Etc..
/full_circle
Granted, High Energy Physics requires Science V which many people will have for +5 implants, but if you're increasing the powergrid on Marauders, Engineering V isn't needed except for Capital Shield/Energy systems. So you're basically screwing over armor dreads and people who use HEP research agents? Disclaimer: this was after a quick scan of Evemon, I may have missed critical items that make Science V and Engineering V "mandatory."
|

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:04:00 -
[1332] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote: Granted, High Energy Physics requires Science V which many people will have for +5 implants, but if you're increasing the powergrid on Marauders, Engineering V isn't needed except for Capital Shield/Energy systems. So you're basically screwing over armor dreads and people who use HEP research agents? Disclaimer: this was after a quick scan of Evemon, I may have missed critical items that make Science V and Engineering V "mandatory."
Graviton Physics (DIC and HIC bubbles, now HICs themselves) and Jump Drive Operation (caps) have Science V as prerec.
Engineering V is a fundamental fitting skill and as such mandatory for all combat ships starting from frigs, as well as a prerec for Thermodynamics, another mandatory combat skill.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade Evolution of Dawn
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:06:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Having never flown any Marauders before but being very interested in them and having a hard time justifying getting into one given all the training time needed vs. their utility, I welcome the changes (especially for the Vargur). That being said, I've read a bunch in the past about how the are used and quite a few posts in this thread, and I figured I give my two cents.
#1: Stuff that I liked: - fitting changes (esp. power grid) - the concept of mode, though it'll have to be tweaked - MJD changes, given the hit and run idea that comes mind with "marauder" - I don't really like the decrease in defense stats, but I suppose it's fair to keep them from being OP
#2: They are T2 battleships, designed for marauding (to roam and raid in search of plunder) - give them T2 resists, scan strength/resolution, etc. - increased agility and speed for the 'raiding' - basically make them what HACs are to T1 cruisers in terms of base stats
#3: They are (or were) targeted towards PvE, and I believe lots of people used them for solo mission running (I'll cover incursions in my bastion mode section) - tractor beam bonus to be ~130%, keeps them fairly capable of working solo without a noctis, but still leaves the noctis very useful if you have one close by - web bonuses continue to apply to ships that had them - at a minimum, revert drone changes back to current stats. Drones are very useful to those who work alone, esp. those hulls that don't have web bonuses
#4: Bastion mode tweaks, taking into account all of the above: - drop Bastion resist bonus to ~20% to accommodate for higher (T2) resists from above - local rep bonus: make it 25-35% instead of 100%, and allow remote repping. People flying solo can usually tank L4 missions pretty reasonably and if the have trouble they can MJD out, deploy, rep and build cap while picking off rats from a far (same goes for solo/small gang PvP unless they are prevented from jumping). Allowing remote reps keeps these ships viable in incursions and fleet activity. 100% bonus to local reps and disallowing remote reps makes these ships OP (tank wise) for solo PvE (and PvP perhaps) while making them not all that useful in group situations (esp. small gang and incursions, and remember, these are primarily PvE ships) - give a damage bonus to Bastion mode, say 20-30%. That way these ships behave more like mini-dreads (which many believed they are being designed like) while still leaving the pirate BS's as the premier damage platform. As it stands in incursions, there's basically 0 benefit to Bastion mode because there aren't tanking or damage application problems for the most part (which are the problems Bastion mode solves) while not solving the problem of increasing damage output. Similar situation applies to PvP and solo PvE: Bastion mode basically provides breathing room which doesn't make a huge difference in either (solo PvE because you can already tank everything, solo PvP because once you can't warp or jump there's a decent chance you're screwed anyways once your opponent is under your guns) - please don't make the Bastion skill requirements horrendously long, as this ship already takes tons of training. OR: - make the tactical weapon reconfiguration skill the prerequisite for the bastion module and have the modules bonuses depend on the level of this skill. I'd make my proposed numbers the equivalent approximate of TWR IV (TWR IV provides slightly less than those numbers would probably be better) and it can act as a stepping stone to dreads.
#5: Slot layout: - give each ship a mid slot instead of high (except maybe Golem... an extra low might be more useful there). I realise you're trying to preserve the high utilities since the Bastion module will take a high, but this game is all about trade-offs. Maybe even leave the slots as they are and make it so that fitting the Bastion modules opens up the extra mid or low (although that sounds kinda stupid even to me, but whatever... food for thought).
So those are my thoughts for now. Feel free to rip them to shreds, because I'm sure I'm not right about everything and missing some stuff. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:10:00 -
[1334] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote: So... why not just require Tactical Weapon Configuration? Marauders already require AWU 5 which is TWC's prereq. TWC is the siege module skill. TWC is a needed stepping stone for all dreads. Etc..
/full_circle
Granted, High Energy Physics requires Science V which many people will have for +5 implants, but if you're increasing the powergrid on Marauders, Engineering V isn't needed except for Capital Shield/Energy systems. So you're basically screwing over armor dreads and people who use HEP research agents? Disclaimer: this was after a quick scan of Evemon, I may have missed critical items that make Science V and Engineering V "mandatory."
Science 5 is required for Graviton Physics (HICs, Dictors, and bubbles). Also anything to do with Jump-Drives. Science 4 is needed for Thermodynamics though, which everyone at this level of play should at least have to 1.
Tobias Hareka wrote:You can start with those PL reports. Vtra wrote:High Energy Physics... seriously? How about not screwing up my "no Indy" Train and make High Energy 4 - Logistics 4.....
Thoughts? Breaks the (very good) rule about unrelated ships being required for other ships/ship modules. I think I'd rather just take the ~5 day train and free data-cores. It's a new and powerful module, we shouldn't all just have access to it from skills everyone trains anyway. For those who don't know how to read them: click Battle Overview
I know how to read them, I'm telling you that when I click those links to look at them they're completely blank. No ships shown on either side.
The cloaky-tengu joke was literally a joke about there not being anything to see in those battle-reports...
Caleb Seremshur wrote: CCP are brute force changing the meta for fleet fights away from big logi gangs over to cap unstable locally repped ships. In a certain way of speaking this will heal many wounds that have been opened over the years but it will promote alpha fleets more than ever OTOH.
Expect to see fleets of armageddons and maelstroms supplemented by damping recons. Combination of factors when inckuding the changes to defensive strategies I can only envisage this benefitting big alliances the most. At least now smaller entities will have an slightly easier time thanks to increasing vulnerability to cap warfare and generally lower ehp values
I have no idea where you're getting this. The thread says at the start:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
These are not meant to be the new null-sec meta. For the same price you can get a Navy or Pirate battleship fleet with lower skill requirements, better damage, and better effective tank when supported by even a moderate number of Logi, T1 or T2.
Yes, these things can fit a good local tank, but it makes them very vulnerable to alpha-strikes because they don't have the buffer that allows Battleships with logistics support to survive long enough for reps to take effect.
If you buffer tank them then they have absolutely no ability to stay on field and will die in any decent sized fleet-fight before their Bastion cycle is over. Overall you'd probably be better off fielding Command Ships which can fit a similar if not greater buffer and still be remote repaired. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:17:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I know how to read them, I'm telling you that when I click those links to look at them they're completely blank. No ships shown on either side.
The cloaky-tengu joke was literally a joke about there not being anything to see in those battle-reports...
R-click, open in a new tab, just like every kb link on these forums.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
355
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:18:00 -
[1336] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Interesting
Its the rep bonus that makes the package. Remember reps are also getting buffed so these things will be getting a monster of a tank while in stand your ground mode.
you dont get it do you? the problem is we marauder pilots DO NOT! need more tank... from our point of view we are already running sites without jumping out and at the peak efficiency of what the weapons fitted will allow.
put it this way, what good for a golem makes having more tank, if my fit is already using 3 target painters? adding a 4 or 5th one wont help a bit in the end
I need to do more damage, otherwise the isk efficiency its the very same as before, meaning it will top at 25 or so mill per click.
being able to run harder sites does not help for nothing at all for the simple reason, that I will just still be killing for 25 mill per click.
PVP wise, marauders DPS is not high enough for the risks of going into bastion, a golem or kronos got the highest DPS (which btw its the very same DPS a normal hyperion or raven,cnr or CNS gets) so you could just as well overtank any of those ships for 1/10 of the price, and achieve the same result.
the damage projection bonus wont help, because in the game you never get to that situation.
and last, what I m going to do with a MJD if my next accel gate is 50kms away? 25? 75? I need a MWD not a MJD. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:21:00 -
[1337] - Quote
Josh Cox wrote: #2: They are T2 battleships, designed for marauding (to roam and raid in search of plunder) - give them T2 resists, scan strength/resolution, etc. - increased agility and speed for the 'raiding' - basically make them what HACs are to T1 cruisers in terms of base stats
Battleship sized HACs is a horrible idea. You would basically end up with 1 Battleship to rule them all because Battleships are, at their core, DPS and tank machines. If you let one Battleship class do it all there's not much room left for any sort of specialization. You are basically saying "give me a god battleship" that's got about as much chance of happening as I have of getting elected to the CSM (and if I were I'd make sure it didn't happen).
Josh Cox wrote:#3: They are (or were) targeted towards PvE, and I believe lots of people used them for solo mission running (I'll cover incursions in my bastion mode section) - tractor beam bonus to be ~130%, keeps them fairly capable of working solo without a noctis, but still leaves the noctis very useful if you have one close by - web bonuses continue to apply to ships that had them - at a minimum, revert drone changes back to current stats. Drones are very useful to those who work alone, esp. those hulls that don't have web bonuses
The tractor beam bonus being adjusted upward slightly has been suggested several times.
The web-bonuses are over-powered, as evidenced by the popularity of the ships that had them in roles where they were otherwise hampered by their poor sensor suite and lower DPS than comparable ships. The web bonus is essentially a license to be immune to short-range anything because you can hold someone down and hit them until they explode.
Yes, drones are very powerful, the bay should probably be larger because it's helpful for missions but they don't need more drones on field, that would risk making them too strong against smaller more maneuverable ships which are the natural counter to a big ball of hitpoints that can't move.
Josh Cox wrote:#4: Bastion mode tweaks, taking into account all of the above: - drop Bastion resist bonus to ~20% to accommodate for higher (T2) resists from above - local rep bonus: make it 25-35% instead of 100%, and allow remote repping. People flying solo can usually tank L4 missions pretty reasonably and if the have trouble they can MJD out, deploy, rep and build cap while picking off rats from a far (same goes for solo/small gang PvP unless they are prevented from jumping). Allowing remote reps keeps these ships viable in incursions and fleet activity. 100% bonus to local reps and disallowing remote reps makes these ships OP (tank wise) for solo PvE (and PvP perhaps) while making them not all that useful in group situations (esp. small gang and incursions, and remember, these are primarily PvE ships) - give a damage bonus to Bastion mode, say 20-30%. That way these ships behave more like mini-dreads (which many believed they are being designed like) while still leaving the pirate BS's as the premier damage platform. As it stands in incursions, there's basically 0 benefit to Bastion mode because there aren't tanking or damage application problems for the most part (which are the problems Bastion mode solves) while not solving the problem of increasing damage output. Similar situation applies to PvP and solo PvE: Bastion mode basically provides breathing room which doesn't make a huge difference in either (solo PvE because you can already tank everything, solo PvP because once you can't warp or jump there's a decent chance you're screwed anyways once your opponent is under your guns) - please don't make the Bastion skill requirements horrendously long, as this ship already takes tons of training. OR: - make the tactical weapon reconfiguration skill the prerequisite for the bastion module and have the modules bonuses depend on the level of this skill. I'd make my proposed numbers the equivalent approximate of TWR IV (TWR IV provides slightly less than those numbers would probably be better) and it can act as a stepping stone to dreads.
Again, you're asking for a god-battleship. This is power-creep of the worst sort and a bad idea.
Specifically, the Pirate Battleships are supposed to do mor DPS and the skill train is, at present, 5 days on an off-map plan ~4 on map assuming you have the pre-reqs for Marauders and Science 5.
Josh Cox wrote:#5: Slot layout: - give each ship a mid slot instead of high (except maybe Golem... an extra low might be more useful there). I realise you're trying to preserve the high utilities since the Bastion module will take a high, but this game is all about trade-offs. Maybe even leave the slots as they are and make it so that fitting the Bastion modules opens up the extra mid or low (although that sounds kinda stupid even to me, but whatever... food for thought).
So those are my thoughts for now. Feel free to rip them to shreds, because I'm sure I'm not right about everything and missing some stuff.
Yes, this is a game about trade-offs. 4 Utility Highs is a very unique option for any ship, let alone a Battleship. Extra mid-slots on the other hand would be nothing new and add a ton more utility to ships that already get to replace ~2 tanking modules each with a high slot.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip
Seriously though, I appreciate creative ideas and some of these are certainly creative, I just don't think most of them would be good for Eve as a whole. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:24:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Interesting
Its the rep bonus that makes the package. Remember reps are also getting buffed so these things will be getting a monster of a tank while in stand your ground mode. you dont get it do you? the problem is we marauder pilots DO NOT! need more tank... from our point of view we are already running sites without jumping out and at the peak efficiency of what the weapons fitted will allow. put it this way, what good for a golem makes having more tank, if my fit is already using 3 target painters? adding a 4 or 5th one wont help a bit in the end I need to do more damage, otherwise the isk efficiency its the very same as before, meaning it will top at 25 or so mill per click. being able to run harder sites does not help for nothing at all for the simple reason, that I will just still be killing for 25 mill per click. PVP wise, marauders DPS is not high enough for the risks of going into bastion, a golem or kronos got the highest DPS (which btw its the very same DPS a normal hyperion or raven,cnr or CNS gets) so you could just as well overtank any of those ships for 1/10 of the price, and achieve the same result. the damage projection bonus wont help, because in the game you never get to that situation. and last, what I m going to do with a MJD if my next accel gate is 50kms away? 25? 75? I need a MWD not a MJD.
These changes are to make them better pvp ships not so you can earn more isk. The DPS is just fine for my needs in pvp. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:24:00 -
[1339] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote: PVP wise, marauders DPS is not high enough for the risks of going into bastion, a golem or kronos got the highest DPS (which btw its the very same DPS a normal hyperion or raven,cnr or CNS gets) so you could just as well overtank any of those ships for 1/10 of the price, and achieve the same result.
the damage projection bonus wont help, because in the game you never get to that situation.
Except a Kronos does significantly more dps than the Hype with equal tank, but with significantly better tracking and range, while being immune to rat ewar.
hth
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:25:00 -
[1340] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:So... why not just require Tactical Weapon Configuration? Marauders already require AWU 5 which is TWC's prereq. TWC is the siege module skill. TWC is a needed stepping stone for all dreads. Etc..
Some already have TWC trained to level 5.
Also it doesn't use fuel so training that skill would be pointless. |
|

fenistil
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:28:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Looks like the proposed changes will make Marauders pretty heavy tankers. In this situation:
- Kronos with
- EOS Boosting Armor with Mindlink
- Standard Exile booster
- Anci + C-Type LAR, Imperial Navy EANM, Dmg Controll II, C-Type Explo Hard
- 2xAug Pump rigs
- All LVL5
A Kronos can tank 8353 non-OH DPS and 10 357 DPS OH.
Proof:
Quote:---- Anci Repper --- 3333,13/8.33 - 400,13/sec ---- C-Type Repper - 2440,86/8.33 - 293,02/sec ---- Armor / Sec --- 693,15 / sec -> 173,28/resist/sec
--- CURRENT TANK ---- EM562,36 Therm495,46 Kin576,96 Explo631,65 TOTAL2923 DPS Tank
---- New Resists ---- EM83,41 Therm81.17 Kin83,83 Explo85.23 AVG83,41 TANK4176,9 W 100%8353 Are you looking for a corp that can help you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=189337 |

fenistil
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:35:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Turret Stats - Long Range
Armor ships have 1 TC II and Vargur has 2 TE II. Each ship fitted with 2 Faction Damage Mod. And the result is:
Kronos: 17,5/43,125 - 830 Turret DPS Vargur: 9/95 - 649 Turret DPS !!!!!!!! Paladin: 66.25/16,25 - 677 Turret DPS
95 KM FALLOFF for Vargur! Sniper with 800 ACs. Kronos is the looser for damage projection. Paladin is nice, can deal that 677 DPS up to 66.25 KM. That is a WIN I think. While falloff for Vargur is HUGE and can deal decent damage up to 100 KM, it operates in falloff thus after certain range Paladin DPS > Vargur. In close range, up to about 24-25km, Kronos DPS is biggest then it goes down really quick. Are you looking for a corp that can help you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=189337 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:37:00 -
[1343] - Quote
Roime wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
I know how to read them, I'm telling you that when I click those links to look at them they're completely blank. No ships shown on either side.
The cloaky-tengu joke was literally a joke about there not being anything to see in those battle-reports...
R-click, open in a new tab, just like every kb link on these forums.
Ah, apparently Ctrl+Click in Firefox (which should be doing just that) was not working. Odd.
Regarding the battles themselves, 2 wings on each side for one, and 2 wings for PL on the other. Not quite the "full fleets" people were talking about but definitely significant.
Two points though, T3s are still cheaper than Marauders, even back then, and between those two battles only 23 T3s died. Somehow I don't think we would be looking at those sorts of numbers for any high value battleship hull across two major fleet fights when they were deployed in those numbers, and I mean that as strategically valuable, not in terms of ISK value.
Ager Agemo wrote:you dont get it do you? the problem is we marauder pilots DO NOT! need more tank... from our point of view we are already running sites without jumping out and at the peak efficiency of what the weapons fitted will allow.
put it this way, what good for a golem makes having more tank, if my fit is already using 3 target painters? adding a 4 or 5th one wont help a bit in the end
I need to do more damage, otherwise the isk efficiency its the very same as before, meaning it will top at 25 or so mill per click.
being able to run harder sites does not help for nothing at all for the simple reason, that I will just still be killing for 25 mill per click.
PVP wise, marauders DPS is not high enough for the risks of going into bastion, a golem or kronos got the highest DPS (which btw its the very same DPS a normal hyperion or raven,cnr or CNS gets) so you could just as well overtank any of those ships for 1/10 of the price, and achieve the same result.
the damage projection bonus wont help, because in the game you never get to that situation.
and last, what I m going to do with a MJD if my next accel gate is 50kms away? 25? 75? I need a MWD not a MJD.
I actually do "get it".
The Golem ends up with a rather unique problem in that it doesn't have Tracking Computers or Tracking Enhancers to fit that will improve its damage application. If missile ships get damage application mods as Rise has hinted then this changes and you can improve your completion times by favoring damage application and dropping tank mods to compensate for Bastion where you can.
The other ships don't have this problem though and gain the ability to more easily pop Frigates and Cruisers through better damage application which speeds up mission times.
Finally you can reach that 50km gate through two MJD hops, one up at about a 60 degree angle and then another down toward the gate. This may take a little practice to get right but if you hop, start killing from range, and then hop again when finished you should get good completion times and completely avoid the burn time between gates.
Lastly CCP is probably not particularly interested in the ship rebalancing greatly increase the ISK/hour of high sec mission runners, or even site runners. They are trying to differentiate the various hulls so that they all have a role and unique properties to take advantage of, not raise the average wallet tick of Marauder users to 35mil per tick. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1384
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:45:00 -
[1344] - Quote
The lack of a tracking bonus on the paladin is going to suck pretty hard. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:47:00 -
[1345] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Looks like the proposed changes will make Marauders pretty heavy tankers. In this situation:
- Kronos with
- EOS Boosting Armor with Mindlink
- Standard Exile booster
- Anci + C-Type LAR, Imperial Navy EANM, Dmg Controll II, C-Type Explo Hard
- 2xAug Pump rigs
- All LVL5
A Kronos can tank 8353 non-OH DPS and 10 357 DPS OH. Proof: Quote:---- Anci Repper --- 3333,13/8.33 - 400,13/sec ---- C-Type Repper - 2440,86/8.33 - 293,02/sec ---- Armor / Sec --- 693,15 / sec -> 173,28/resist/sec
--- CURRENT TANK ---- EM562,36 Therm495,46 Kin576,96 Explo631,65 TOTAL2923 DPS Tank
---- New Resists ---- EM83,41 Therm81.17 Kin83,83 Explo85.23 AVG83,41 TANK4176,9 W 100%8353
Mind posting the full fit, because I'm getting something that's not remotely cap-stable. Also did you take into account the nerf to resists from command links in the 1.1 patch?
(Like, so cap-unstable it would probably be better off buffer fit because it'll be out of cap before the buffer tank would have died) |

baltec1
Bat Country
7767
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:49:00 -
[1346] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Looks like the proposed changes will make Marauders pretty heavy tankers. In this situation:
- Kronos with
- EOS Boosting Armor with Mindlink
- Standard Exile booster
- Anci + C-Type LAR, Imperial Navy EANM, Dmg Controll II, C-Type Explo Hard
- 2xAug Pump rigs
- All LVL5
A Kronos can tank 8353 non-OH DPS and 10 357 DPS OH. Proof: Quote:---- Anci Repper --- 3333,13/8.33 - 400,13/sec ---- C-Type Repper - 2440,86/8.33 - 293,02/sec ---- Armor / Sec --- 693,15 / sec -> 173,28/resist/sec
--- CURRENT TANK ---- EM562,36 Therm495,46 Kin576,96 Explo631,65 TOTAL2923 DPS Tank
---- New Resists ---- EM83,41 Therm81.17 Kin83,83 Explo85.23 AVG83,41 TANK4176,9 W 100%8353
I came. |

fenistil
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:53:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Sure thing, and yes, I accounted for the boost modifications. I believe I wrote Eos boost.
Here is the fit:
Quote:[Kronos, Ody 1.1 Bastille] Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Corpus C-Type Large Armor Repairer Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Corpus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Damage Control II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25 True Sansha Warp Disruptor
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
In PVP you are never Cap stable. Obviously if this is getting neuted it's dead, just like any Active Tanking ship. Most likely though, I'll fly it with 1 repper and cap xfers or something smarter than that. Are you looking for a corp that can help you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=189337 |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:57:00 -
[1348] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote:Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare. Color me somewhat skeptical. Got a battle-report or two to throw my way? I also feel it's worth noting that T3s were at worst half the cost of Marauders and are currently running about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost. They're also being saved till last on the balancing chopping block which would indicate CCP find them to be a particularly thorny issue which is backed up by comments from CCP and the CSM. I've seen both CFC and -A- fill multiple fleets with tengus.. ...and yeah a normal fleet tengu runs right around 550mil
T3s aren't SP intensive. These are. To fly a tengu you just need Caldari Cruiser V, Offensive Subsystem V and your missile type of choice to V. That's it. Training a specific missile type doesn't require backtraining all the smaller missile types.
Good ******* luck finding 200 pilots that all have the same Racial Battleship V, T2 guns to go with that racial type, AWU V, EGU V, Marauders V, etc. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7767
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:00:00 -
[1349] - Quote
I would dump the point for another cap booster and slap a firework launcher in a high. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7767
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:02:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Onictus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote:Null. We would fill at least two fleets with tengu (150 to 200 in each fleet not counting logi, booster, brave newbee rifters etc). We did this for years. T3 fleets are far from rare. Color me somewhat skeptical. Got a battle-report or two to throw my way? I also feel it's worth noting that T3s were at worst half the cost of Marauders and are currently running about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost. They're also being saved till last on the balancing chopping block which would indicate CCP find them to be a particularly thorny issue which is backed up by comments from CCP and the CSM. I've seen both CFC and -A- fill multiple fleets with tengus.. ...and yeah a normal fleet tengu runs right around 550mil T3s aren't SP intensive. These are. To fly a tengu you just need Caldari Cruiser V, Offensive Subsystem V and your missile type of choice to V. That's it. Training a specific missile type doesn't require backtraining all the smaller missile types. Good ******* luck finding 200 pilots that all have the same Racial Battleship V, T2 guns to go with that racial type, AWU V, EGU V, Marauders V, etc.
Dread pilots. We have lots of them. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:07:00 -
[1351] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Sure thing, and yes, I accounted for the boost modifications. I believe I wrote Eos boost.
In PVP you are never Cap stable. Obviously if this is getting neuted it's dead, just like any Active Tanking ship. Most likely though, I'll fly it with 1 repper and cap xfers or something smarter than that.
Yup, just wanted to make sure. I'm just not sure this is a practical fit. Even without neuts it lasts ~6 minutes, requires an entire extra ship (which likely will have to be on-grid when Winter hits), and costs quite a bit, to put it mildly (pretty sure this is ~4-5 billion without factoring in the Eos and its fit). Also no idea why you didn't do T2 armor rigs.
baltec1 wrote: Dread pilots. We have lots of them.
There's a bit of a difference between "lots of dreads" and lots of any sub-capital. For a start Dreads can be insured for a decent return. Second, Asakai has 43 dreads lost, and the side that lost them seems to have had about 50-60 dreads present during the fight.
This was the largest commitment of caps in Eve history and there were all of 50-60 dreads from one side. Compared to the number of sub-caps that's hardly "lots" and those pilots are almost always going to be more valuable bringing those dreads to the field rather than running around in Marauders. If you can make a case for why this would not be the case then by all means lets hear it. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
163
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:21:00 -
[1352] - Quote
I was actually expecting the Marauder changes to add more ... flexibility to the hulls. I kinda feel that putting them in "Siege mode" is going the other way, I already do a siege mode of sorts by sitting in a Rattlesnake and putting sentries out, sitting there shooting like mad, usually with MJD uses to get to the next gate.
If a siege mode was added I actually would have also expected numbers to go the other way. For example, have cruise missiles fly much shorter range (like an overburn) but hit much harder as a balance, cause you'd turn it on when you are surrounded, in trouble and getting pounded, or boost radius to Smartbombs, or Gallante to actually get MORE drone options like faster flying, harder to hit drones, etc etc.
Since this hull has not been touched in many many years, I'm sort of scared that when the new changes stick, it will probably not get touched again, like, ever. Would be nice if we get a large majority happy with changes, hence I would prefer this suckers stay on SiSi only until they get tested to death. I've been trying to skill up just for this, but multiple BS V's and support/weapon skills take a ... while.
If players have gone this long without Marauder changes, I'm sure a BIT longer won't kill them. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:23:00 -
[1353] - Quote
and yet I could use this marauder in null after shipping it there and make considerably even more? What about wormholes?
Fwiw my golem can do almost 1100 with just cruise missiles alone before drones so I dont think dps is the key issue here... 25% velocity increase sees cruises pulling what. .. 15 - 20 km per second? The main thing that hurts the golem especially is the target painter falloff and lack of a hull bonus to missile explosion radius.
If it were my choice I would swap the flight time bonus for a 20% radius bonus therefore giving the golem 20% radius + 25% explosion velocity + 25% missile velocity at max skills. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:28:00 -
[1354] - Quote
fenistil wrote:In PVP you are never Cap stable. Obviously if this is getting neuted it's dead, just like any Active Tanking ship. Most likely though, I'll fly it with 1 repper and cap xfers or something smarter than that.
You're still using an ancillary rep to get those numbers, and they're pathetic compared to the Vargur.
I've already posted it before, but with these changes you can fit out a dual-XLASB Vargur that tanks 15000 DPS with blue pill and T2 mods, 20,000 DPS with crystals, and over 25,000 DPS with deadspace stuff. It uses no cap for anything besides the three heavy neuts you can also fit on it. If incoming DPS is half those numbers or less it can permatank it with no cap use due to the gigantic cargobay and being able to run one XLASB while reloading the other.
With faction EMP it's 1027 DPS and 0.101 tracking, faction uranium is 718 DPS and 0.13 tracking, all with 54km falloff. Hail is 1135 DPS and still has double the tracking of large pulse lasers. This ship and a resilient tackler alt could solo entire gangs.
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:30:00 -
[1355] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dread pilots. We have lots of them.
How many do you have? Remember just having 200 dread pilots isn't enough, you need 200 dread pilots of a specific racial type if you want to make up a fleet doctrine. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
274
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:34:00 -
[1356] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Sure thing, and yes, I accounted for the boost modifications. I believe I wrote Eos boost. Here is the fit: Quote:[Kronos, Ody 1.1 Bastille] Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Corpus C-Type Large Armor Repairer Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Corpus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Damage Control II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25 True Sansha Warp Disruptor
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
In PVP you are never Cap stable. Obviously if this is getting neuted it's dead, just like any Active Tanking ship. Most likely though, I'll fly it with 1 repper and cap xfers or something smarter than that.
Vargur and golem will do this better. ~10,000 dps tank with alternate dual xl-asb, cargohold extenders will allow them to carry 10 million ehp-worth of cap boosters. Fit a NOS in the top slot for neut protection and you've got...
... a horrible game, breaking bait ship.

A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

fenistil
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:35:00 -
[1357] - Quote
It was a concept fit, to prove that it will be possible to have 10k tank marauders.
I am damn sure that WH folks will take advantage of this. Thwy are tight groups with decent pilots usually. Here comes the marauder fleet concept.
DSpite, have you ever seen solo 10 of 10s being done? Or actually havens and sanctums are kind of tough to do solo. Now you could sit in small haven at the spawn point in your Vargur with 100km rnage and destroy everything with a t2 medium shield booster providing all the tank you need. Are you looking for a corp that can help you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=189337 |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:39:00 -
[1358] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I was actually expecting the Marauder changes to add more ... flexibility to the hulls. I kinda feel that putting them in "Siege mode" is going the other way,
Thats what the description says and also what my understanding of a "Marauder" is - something that has a degree of versatility and can perform a variety of roles behind enemy lines.
While their main focus is looting/salvaging they do have a PVP element also - the whole idea of them is getting in, getting the job done and getting out without doing anything for even a second that would commit them to the battlefield - so MJD bonus = good, module that ties them down for 60+ seconds = bad. |

fenistil
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:41:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Mournful, you forget, that these ships cannot move. If the tank cannot be broken, you can just leave the ship there and look for somthing else to shoot. Nieche applications of the marauders I like. You wont see marauders solo gangs unless the FC is a complete moron. Are you looking for a corp that can help you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=189337 |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
274
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:42:00 -
[1360] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Mournful, you forget, that these ships cannot move. If the tank cannot be broken, you can just leave the ship there and look for somthing else to shoot. Nieche applications of the marauders I like. You wont see marauders solo gangs unless the FC is a complete moron.
I don't forget. Each one will carry a cyno.
It's going to be horrible...
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |
|

fenistil
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:47:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop. But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive. . |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:57:00 -
[1362] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop. But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive.
You'd generally worry less about survivability and use cheaper bait and pick your targets as much as possible, if your going to throw a 1bn odd ISK hull in there then there are options even now that can run a mad tank i.e. rattlesnake.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
274
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:00:00 -
[1363] - Quote
fenistil wrote:Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop. But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive. So... respectfully... might be game be better served if the dev team tackle the difficult hot-drop problem that makes lowsec skirmishes end in a nasty, non-fun hotdrop before they become good fights?
It seems to me that the (PVE) users of Marauders were not asking for a change.
Nobody likes the game-ending mechanics of the one-sided hot-drop. I'm pretty sure that balancing that would receive widespread and unanimous support.
It seems to me that this proposal adds 4 more ships to the hot-drop arsenal, without improving the lot of PVE marauder pilots or improving PVP tactical gameplay.
It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.
It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:14:00 -
[1364] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.
It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.
The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.
Applied to the former tier3 battleship hulls as a new T2 battleship line it has a nice fit, marauders not so much. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:21:00 -
[1365] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.
It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.
The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.
Hmmmm kinda, i wouldn't say ruining. definitely not flawed. Waaaaaaaay too early to tell. personally i like it If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
274
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:24:00 -
[1366] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.
It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.
The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.
It was a great idea in Medieval times, just before the mass-production of cannons.
The idea of "stand still and build strong walls" has not been valid military doctrine since about 1200AD, and it didn't work that well back then - the defenders starved to death or died of disease.
Modern military doctrine favours mobility, versatility and stealth.
I cannot see envisage this changing in the far future. Fast-moving super-strong things are harder to destroy than stationary super-strong things - always will be.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:39:00 -
[1367] - Quote
The ships should be balanced by their topmost min-maxed PVE capability as far as PVE goes to make sure they don't obsolete each other or pirate BS.
DPS with current ranges: Golem 1258dps Rage torpedo (26km) or 1070dps CN torpedo (30km) Kronos 1504dps Void (10+13km), 1348dps CNAM (6+26km) or 1074dps Null (19+37km) Paladin 1218dps Conflag (20+17km), 1040dps IN gamma (26+20km) or 877dps Scorch (62+20km) Vargur 1177dps Hail (4+56km), 1054dps RF ammo (4+75km)
With the optimal buff Paladin with Conflagration will reach 27km base optimal.
With the siege mode buff all the ships will be very efficient at 30km-40km range and similiarly effective at 50km far orbit range. However, the Golem is lacking because of it's limited torpedo range and bad damage application with Rage torpedoes.
I would look into improving the Golem siege bonus to missile velocity AND travel time to make the Rage build more viable at PVE ranges. 25% to both missile velocity and fuel when sieged, based on the potential numbers on each of the ships.
|

Alec Freeman
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
245
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:39:00 -
[1368] - Quote
I like this idea.
However i feel it would be vastly improved if Turrets & Missiles where given a Damage bonus rather than tracking / range.
Damage bonus would aid all weapons systems equally and would mean that long range arty / beam / rail platformed marauders would be more interesting.
It would also give them more purpous in PvP as anti capital strike craft and highsec POS bashers. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:47:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Rroff wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.
It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.
The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it. It was a great idea in Medieval times, just before the mass-production of cannons. The idea of "stand still and build strong walls" has not been valid military doctrine since about 1200AD, and it didn't work that well back then - the defenders starved to death or died of disease. Modern military doctrine favours mobility, versatility and stealth. I cannot envisage this changing in the far future. Fast-moving super-strong things are harder to destroy than stationary super-strong things - always will be.
POS Force Field disaproves.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:49:00 -
[1370] - Quote
Gwen Ambraelle wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Gwen Ambraelle wrote:I'm amazed at all the complaining.
These things are going to be great at the following;
- Wormhole Anoms up to C3's (maybe C4's) - All L4 Missions - Epic Arc's / COSMOS - LV5's
I can't speak for DED sites as I've not enough experience, but from what I understand of them, they should great there too.
Any arguments to say that these things are going to be useless in PvE are just beyond me.
And as for PvP, doing WH's anoms gives you lots of that. L5's would do the same.
I can see these things being used all over W-Space.
No ship should be good at everything, asking for that is just silly. But they will excel in some area's, and that's fine.
I say all of of the above as a Pally pilot who is perfectly happy with it as it is now. Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve. L5 mission solo - What other ship would be more effective? C3/4 Sites solo - What other ship would be more effective? Amarr Epic with all their (^^$%$&()*& TD's - What ship would be better? The Assault with all their ^*%$*&&^ Jammers - What ship would be better? I could go on, but the point is that if you have the skills, these changes are very intriguing.
L5 solo - stupid? I guess you COULD do it, until someone scans you down and kills your 1b+ immobile bs in lowsec c3/4 solo - i dont know since i dont do them, you could be right amarr epic - who cares its an epic you can only do once, yeah sure i'll buy and fit a ship just for that.. XD the assault - just dont do this mission. Getting this ship for just this mission? id rather just bring a freind or an alt so the jams dont stop both of us |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:55:00 -
[1371] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:L5 solo - stupid? I guess you COULD do it, until someone scans you down and kills your 1b+ immobile bs in lowsec c3/4 solo - i dont know since i dont do them, you could be right amarr epic - who cares its an epic you can only do once, yeah sure i'll buy and fit a ship just for that.. XD the assault - just dont do this mission. Getting this ship for just this mission? id rather just bring a freind or an alt so the jams dont stop both of us
You'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose it to a scan down in a L5 with a cycle time of 60 seconds if you check dscan constantly. Just cancel the mod if you see combat probes on dscan, remember they have to traverse the acceleration gates after scanning you, it would be pretty difficult for them to get tackle on you within 60sec of probes appearing on your scanner, and most of the time you'll be able to get out a lot faster because there won't be the full 60sec on your module cycle time left when you see the probes.
I'd be much more worried about losing it to a gate camp traveling to and from the mission location. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
227
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:56:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Zaxix wrote:Supposedly, T2 is specialized and T3 is general. A marauder should be specialized. The tractor bonus has exactly one use: looting in solo PvE. But that is ultimately limited by your cargo bay. You're essentially asking for a ship bonus that will be used for selectively looting wrecks. Of all the other things that might be added to the ship, that one is pretty minor in the greater scheme of things. Any bonus added should reflect specialization. I'd rather have a reduced sig radius or increased sensor strength than a tractor bonus. You seem to defeat your own argument here. The tractor-bonus is a highly specialized bonus and from looking at the numbers and bonuses it doesn't seem to have factored into their balancing of the hulls. It's being left there because it hurts literally nothing by its presence beyond the sensibilities of a few irate forum posters. It's used by people who already own these ships and works somewhat well with the MJD bonus, this is the very definition of specialized. The SHIP is supposed to be specialized. As in specialized for a particular use.
BTW, your little argument about T3 fleets is about as flawed as it can be. There are massive T3 fleets. Just looking at your one post and none of the others, it seems pretty obvious you don't do much reading of the news sites, dev posts, or other information sources. Go to TMC and EN24 and read the last two months of battle reports. Bokononist
-á |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:00:00 -
[1373] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Battle Cube wrote:L5 solo - stupid? I guess you COULD do it, until someone scans you down and kills your 1b+ immobile bs in lowsec c3/4 solo - i dont know since i dont do them, you could be right amarr epic - who cares its an epic you can only do once, yeah sure i'll buy and fit a ship just for that.. XD the assault - just dont do this mission. Getting this ship for just this mission? id rather just bring a freind or an alt so the jams dont stop both of us You'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose it to a scan down in a L5 with a cycle time of 60 seconds if you check dscan constantly. Just cancel the mod if you see combat probes on dscan, remember they have to traverse the acceleration gates after scanning you, it would be pretty difficult for them to get tackle on you within 60sec of probes appearing on your scanner, and most of the time you'll be able to get out a lot faster because there won't be the full 60sec on your module cycle time left when you see the probes. I'd be much more worried about losing it to a gate camp traveling to and from the mission location. Out of curiosity, can you break gate cloak, prime the MJD, cloak, and then just click cloak off 1sec before you're about to jump to run a lowsec camp?
Eh. Seeing the rewards of a L5, i wouldnt do them even normally, its obviously way too much risk for almost no reward, even more so if you have to bring a marauder. So yeah, if its niche is L5s, which were already kind of useless, then the new marauders will be likewise pretty much useless
Additionally, beyond the risk, it just wouldnt be FUN to have to constantly check scan over the length of an entire mission |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
281
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:04:00 -
[1374] - Quote
Here is a counter-proposal:
"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:
5% bonus to base speed per level 18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.
(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)
Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"
Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.
Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.
It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.
Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
208
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:25:00 -
[1375] - Quote
The Spod wrote: With the optimal buff Paladin with Conflagration will reach 27km base optimal.
With the siege mode buff all the ships will be very efficient at 30km-40km range and similiarly effective at 50km far orbit range. However, the Golem is lacking because of it's limited torpedo range and bad damage application with Rage torpedoes.
I would look into improving the Golem siege bonus to missile velocity AND travel time to make the Rage build more viable at PVE ranges. 25% to both missile velocity and fuel when sieged, based on the potential numbers on each of the ships.
They surely don't have to worry to accidently break cruises, with their 200km baserange bastion'ed firing fury. Coupling the still rather short fittings and the 100km MJD-distance indicates that some (midslot?? or) lowslot-application/projection-modules are on the way - else the golem wouldn't have been mentioned in a torpfit. Pretty sure.
fenistil wrote:It was a concept fit, to prove that it will be possible to have 10k tank marauders.
I am damn sure that WH folks will take advantage of this. Thwy are tight groups with decent pilots usually. Here comes the marauder fleet concept.
DSpite, have you ever seen solo 10 of 10s being done? Or actually havens and sanctums are kind of tough to do solo. Now you could sit in small haven at the spawn point in your Vargur with 100km rnage and destroy everything with a t2 medium shield booster providing all the tank you need.
Yay for pve. I totally cannot judge what those things will do to station games, to gate camps and to solo, I have no idea. Them having not the most buffer and people regularily just undockng *enough* dps or enough neuts (for armorships) to kill you a la carte, or just slowly walking away from your stationary marauder(s) at a camp.
In wormholes, might be cool for fighting on connections crossing c4/c5 to c2/c3 space, kind of limiting you to 3-4 battleships already, and allowing you to run a very fun way organize logistics. Hint: 3 highs, 10 lockable targets, immunity to ewar, 1k+ m-¦ to carry cap boosters. can't be bumped off a wormhole. So you'd park 2 or three of them on your wormhole, get a CS and a couple Lokis, and you got your basic fleet to deploy :D "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
417
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:26:00 -
[1376] - Quote
1. Kronos and Paladin were prime pvp ships with their 90% webs
2. If CCP even remotely thought of these for Large POS's in high sec then they failed. Need a DPS multiplier
3. If the ship can't move in siege, they have 1 web(no 90% webs anymore), every ship will be able to burn away.
4. These ships were buffed for 2 reasons: A) Obvious bait B) Better missioning ships that need cheaper mods to survive
I don't see how any of these changes help a pvper |

Meyr
Shiva The Retirement Club
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:27:00 -
[1377] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Here is a counter-proposal:
"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:
5% bonus to base speed per level 18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.
(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)
Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"
Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.
Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.
It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.
Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?
"I heartily endorse the above-mentioned product and/or service!"
Actually, it goes a long way towards:
A) Justifying the high price tags these ships have.
B) Would encourage a few of the bolder pilots to try a Lvl 5 agent (admittedly not for long, as the risk/reward simply isn't there)
C) Gives the Marauder a definite, albeit narrowly-focused, advantage over the Pirate Battleships
D) Gives a small ISK/hour bump to Marauder pilots without introducing weapon bonus changes
E) Provides for a better ability to salvage (more MWD = more effective tractor beam range) |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
417
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:35:00 -
[1378] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Here is a counter-proposal:
"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:
5% bonus to base speed per level 18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.
(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)
Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"
Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.
Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.
It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.
Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?
How the hell does a PVPer catch this thing if it can MJD out of trouble every single time?
"Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers."
That is MASSIVE!
|

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:46:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Gah'Matar wrote:That new skill should be called "Castle Doctrine".
The Description should also refer to some obscure law from some place that used to be called "Texas".
As a person born, raised, and removed from Texas: I approve of this wholeheartedly.
|

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:10:00 -
[1380] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Since this hull has not been touched in many many years, I'm sort of scared that when the new changes stick, it will probably not get touched again, like, ever. Would be nice if we get a large majority happy with changes, hence I would prefer this suckers stay on SiSi only until they get tested to death. I've been trying to skill up just for this, but multiple BS V's and support/weapon skills take a ... while.
If players have gone this long without Marauder changes, I'm sure a BIT longer won't kill them.
QFT. |
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2666
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:13:00 -
[1381] - Quote
I'm in favor of all theses changes, just responding to fenistill:
fenistil wrote:
DSpite, have you ever seen solo 10 of 10s being done? Or actually havens and sanctums are kind of tough to do solo. Now you could sit in small haven at the spawn point in your Vargur with 100km rnage and destroy everything with a t2 medium shield booster providing all the tank you need.
Every 10/10 except Blood Raider Naval Shipyard is easily soloable in ships like Rattlesnakes and Tengus (and now with the MJD, all lots of other ships). i know because I've done all of them.
I already sit still with a machariel in havens and only move in sanctums to get closer to rats, all with a medium faction booster fit and not having to lock myself down for someone to catch me. If sanctums and havens are hard to tank, there's something wrong with your fit. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:13:00 -
[1382] - Quote
The idea seems to be a solution in search of a problem. The main driving reason(s) given by CCP is that you wish to expand the use of the Marauders from PVE focused ships to a dual role into PVP use. The current proposed changes simply do not fulfill that. The main problem I learned about when I was a brand spanking new pilot and sought to learn to one day pvp in a Golem was a two-fold problem that plagues the Marauders as a viable PVP ship. The first and most hindering aspect for PVP use of all Marauders is their extremely weak sensor strength. The second is their relatively weaker dps compared to the cost of the hulls of other ships in their price range(s). This new bastion solves only half the problem while creating an entirely new one of complete immobility. The Golem and all Marauders in general are already very slow thus justifying the tractor range and speed bonus that tractors get on these ships. Making them slower to artificially create a need for the MJD is just something that should not be done. Pilots out to fly the ships as they like without being herded into some fixed fit just cause you like to see pilots using the MJD more. If anything make the MJD a variable distance module and you might get your wish of seeing more of them used effectively. The change while drastic and essentially fixing one aspect of why Marauders are not used for pvp by making them immune to EW under bastion mode does not solve the second reason which is they will die to half competent pilots quite easily. They will be big fish in a barrel that regenerate their bodies, but die once they run out of calories to burn(capacitor). This is not a bad thing entirely, but makes them good at one thing and that is bait ships. I suggest that if you really want to see Marauders used in PVP you simply have to increase sensor strength by an amount that would make them difficult to jam by all but skilled and fitted dedicated EW ships. That is one of the main reasons to never use them to PVP ever. The second problem is dps or more importantly applied dps. The fact that a damage bonus is missing on the new bastion mode is an obvious and glaring issue with Marauders now if the changes stay as they are. Marauders do not so much lack in the tank department as they lack in the applied dps. Marauders as they are now tank well enough on their own for their tanks not being the issue for not being used for PVP their damage is. Increasing the effective applied dps on these ships would see their use in PVP more likely and viable alternative to Faction/Pirate battleships. The drone capacity decrease is also poorly served as the current changes lower the full sets of of drones one can carry to combat smaller and faster ships. The bandwidth change is not as crippling and effectively locks them out from using drones as an effective backup weapon system so I don't entirely disagree, but just makes them less worth for their main role as PVE ships. To end my rant i will just say that the proposed changes while seemingly impressive and pvp enabling are hardly that and will only highlight the obvious deficiencies with the Marauders class as a whole for viable PVP.Current changes make for great and long KM gang kills and bait ships. Yeah they will see more PVP use initially, but once they prove how niche their use will snow dive. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
281
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:21:00 -
[1383] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Here is a counter-proposal:
"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:
5% bonus to base speed per level 18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.
(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)
Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"
Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.
Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.
It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.
Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?
How the hell does a PVPer catch this thing if it can MJD out of trouble every single time? "Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers." That is MASSIVE!
no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive :-)
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:24:00 -
[1384] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Here is a counter-proposal:
"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:
5% bonus to base speed per level 18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.
(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)
Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"
Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.
Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.
It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.
Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?
and ye wonder why ccp ignore you... If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
417
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:27:00 -
[1385] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive :-)
Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away? |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:31:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: How the hell does a PVPer catch this thing if it can MJD out of trouble every single time?
"Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers."
That is MASSIVE!
scanners and/or fitting for long range
jump past me I still shoot you jump away I have a warpin in seconds
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:36:00 -
[1387] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Meyr wrote:I'm thinking that a few Carriers and Dreads at all IV, and able to be fully insured, will be preferable to an equal number of Marauders (even at all V), in the eyes of most 0.0 alliance leaders or FC's.
Honestly, I'm not sure why CCP feels the need to go in this direction. There has been ample need for a higher-end PVE ship for years, as evidenced by the way these ships are used. There are any number of hulls that are very good at PVP, but absolutely suck rocks at PVE. If you're okay with that, it stands to reason that you should be equally happy with a bare few ships that are too expensive for true PVP, but work well as a PVE investment.
If you want a way for your Goon buddies to grief hisec carebears, how about simply creating a new hull category, like you did with Tier 3 BC's, and leave what had been a marginally successful hull series focused upon its original purpose - turning rats into ISK.
Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?
The only ones happy with this are your true target audience - Goons, and those like them, who hate everyone they refer to as 'carebears', and who go out of their way to grief them. You've given them the perfect platform with which to grief small, non-aligned, 2 & 3-man industrial corps doing T2 invention in a hisec POS.
The Law of Unintended Consequences - look it up. Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this. The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE. He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to) This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic. I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour. When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets. This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing)
+1 |

Razefummel
unknown dimension Alpha Volley Union
604
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:38:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ? Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done. just saying.
Greetings
Raze 21 Tage Trial: https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=5a429c6a-3cfd-4ecd-8ffc-0d8921dbbaad&action=buddy Difficile est saturam non scribere. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:41:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive :-)
Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away? I agree this would be a bad change and would drastically change mechanics. My view is like their class name suggest Marauders ought to be Marauding rather than being turned into fixed gun and missile batteries. If anything id like to see this new bastion mode be more like a marauding mode where speed and damage is increased letting them do their thing called marauding.
|

Tanik Fera
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:45:00 -
[1390] - Quote
I believe it was mentioned there would be medium and small MJDs introduced in the future. Is this still in the works? As far as for PVP will the MJD bonus on marauders be made less relevant in 6 months, a year? |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:46:00 -
[1391] - Quote
 If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:53:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Razefummel wrote:Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ? Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done. just saying.
Greetings
Raze I agree and perhaps some more base speed and/or bonus prop module(s). |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
281
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:58:00 -
[1393] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive :-)
Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away?
That's rather the point. It gives PVE players a chance to do pve in hostile space....
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:02:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Came looking for marauders, found seebees, left disappointed. Perhaps CCP should change the name of the class of ships to seebees and then the class would make more sense.
|

Just Lilly
117
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:15:00 -
[1395] - Quote
CCP should add +2 warpstrength to all marauders, they are suppose to be annoying and harassing
+5 warpstrength while in bastion mode
Just for laughs  Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:22:00 -
[1396] - Quote
Any hope for dev reply on whether or not they are still going in this direction for marauders? :( |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
281
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:24:00 -
[1397] - Quote
on a Sunday? sir you have no heart... :) A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:28:00 -
[1398] - Quote
Just Lilly wrote:CCP should add +2 warpstrength to all marauders, they are suppose to be annoying and harassing +5 warpstrength while in bastion mode Just for laughs  Perhaps +1 warp-strength has merit in allowing a pilot to actually make use of a MJD before turning into a wreck and the +5 might as well be +9000 warp-strength in bastion mode for all the good and just for the lulz. If CCP adds this +9000 warp-strength I wont cancel my account as a result of ruining the ship class id like to pvp in. |

kahn liam
Boosters Anonymous
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:54:00 -
[1399] - Quote
Don't get rid of the pali/kronos webs! way more usefull then some increase in turret falloff, imo. |

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:03:00 -
[1400] - Quote
I don't think i have ever used the stasis bonus on the paladin, frigs hardly ever get that close so the optimal range bonus makes more sense. as for the kronos, i prefer the fall-off bonus but the web bonus is still useful. |
|

kahn liam
Boosters Anonymous
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:27:00 -
[1401] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I don't think i have ever used the stasis bonus on the paladin, frigs hardly ever get that close so the optimal range bonus makes more sense. as for the kronos, i prefer the fall-off bonus but the web bonus is still useful. it's pretty usefull for using in conjunction with blap dreads and cheaper then vindis....
granted with the complete roll change they might not even be used for that any longer, but still i'd rather the webs then the falloff. maybe that's just me. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:27:00 -
[1402] - Quote
I been wondering if CCP devs explored the possibility of making a marauder mode that instead of making the Marauders into fixed weapons mode it made them extremely fast and agile with damage/tracking bonuses. If its possible id like to know if the devs explored this and what their experiments rendered in terms of ship balance. Sensor strength increase seems like something that should have been looked into and wondering if and what the results were as well in terms of balance or the imbalance it created. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
122
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:28:00 -
[1403] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I don't think i have ever used the stasis bonus on the paladin, frigs hardly ever get that close so the optimal range bonus makes more sense. as for the kronos, i prefer the fall-off bonus but the web bonus is still useful. Not having the web bonus is a major kick in the teeth, because that translates to a 400% increase in target velocity. If they want to give the Kronos a 400% bonus to blaster tracking to compensate I'm down with that, but I very much doubt it would happen....
Also there is a ridiculous assertion in this thread that the 90% web bonus was overpowered:
Large blasters are an oddity - sub 10km optimal on a very slow platform, fundamentally only really works if you can pin down any targets straying in range to near stationary. Overpowered? not really, because you simply kite said slow, lumbering platform outside of 13km. I should also point out, from the perspective of someone who extensively flew blasterthrons back in the day of 90% webs (2004-2008), that it was still perfectly viable back then to get in under the guns in frigate sized platforms (heck if you got close enough in a cruiser you could still mess up tracking sufficiently), the only recourse the blasterthron pilot had was to 'tickle' the MWD to attempt to pull a little bit of range.
In the days of MWD-killing scrams, boosted afterburners, and tracking disrupters bolted into spare mid slots, 90% webs on a lumbering vulnerable Battleship platform are in no way overpowered.
P.s back in the day the Kronos had 99% webs....
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

kahn liam
Boosters Anonymous
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:29:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Nano Quantum wrote:I been wondering if CCP devs explored the possibility of making a marauder mode that instead of making the Marauders into fixed weapons mode it made them extremely fast and agile with damage/tracking bonuses. If its possible id like to know if the devs explored this and what their experiments rendered in terms of ship balance.
The last thing EVE balance needs is another "fast skirmish" situation, since this role is decidedly cramped thanks to a plethora of ships that excel at it. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:40:00 -
[1405] - Quote
kahn liam wrote:Nano Quantum wrote:I been wondering if CCP devs explored the possibility of making a marauder mode that instead of making the Marauders into fixed weapons mode it made them extremely fast and agile with damage/tracking bonuses. If its possible id like to know if the devs explored this and what their experiments rendered in terms of ship balance. The last thing EVE balance needs is another "fast skirmish" situation, since this role is decidedly cramped thanks to a plethora of ships that excel at it. I suppose if they did not explore this possible alternative mode this would be a very valid reason for not doing so since there are ships that fit that more or less. It would be telling however to know how much concept testing they did into changing this class. |

Razefummel
unknown dimension Alpha Volley Union
604
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:46:00 -
[1406] - Quote
Maybe this incredible Idea was from "CCP EA" because EA was known for its perfectly balanced Game Mechanics and Units in their Games... who knows?
I don-¦t like the Idea of the "Cynobaiting Highsec-Dreads" witch is presented here...
21 Tage Trial: https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=5a429c6a-3cfd-4ecd-8ffc-0d8921dbbaad&action=buddy Difficile est saturam non scribere. |

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:48:00 -
[1407] - Quote
The bastion does not make a marauder strong enough for incursions or level 5, and it does not make it faster in L4. Don't care about PvP. It's a marauder. It's for PvE. I do like the transformation thing, but without a damage buff, it's useless. My character has 4.6 mil SP, most of them in scan & salvaging and I still can do The Assault and Worlds Collide without problems in a 1.2 bil RNI and the bonus room from angel/guristas extravaganza it's a joke for my tank. A golem will be even better at tanking. So it's not a necesity to bring more tank ( I do not complain, I like it, more it's better) for PvE and the pourpres of a marauder, it will be better to give more dps, or even better to give both tank and dps. Now, the bastion it's a bonus in PvP in my noob/new player opinion but how can you fight in a marauder vs 2 bs + decent logi with just 1.400 DPS in a torp golem? If you want to be used in PVP, make the bastion module give some damage buffs. The golem have gained +200mil on jita, from 0.95 to over 1.25 bil since this announce. It's too expensive, more than a pirate BS, so why would not be better than one? And if ccp is working on marauders, make the range bonus of tractor beam better. 60-70km ore more :P Just my opinion as a new and inexperienced player of eve online. Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:09:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:The bastion does not make a marauder strong enough for incursions or level 5, and it does not make it faster in L4. Don't care about PvP. It's a marauder. It's for PvE. I do like the transformation thing, but without a damage buff, it's useless. My character has 4.6 mil SP, most of them in scan & salvaging and I still can do The Assault and Worlds Collide without problems in a 1.2 bil RNI and the bonus room from angel/guristas extravaganza it's a joke for my tank. A golem will be even better at tanking. So it's not a necesity to bring more tank ( I do not complain, I like it, more it's better) for PvE and the pourpres of a marauder, it will be better to give more dps, or even better to give both tank and dps. Now, the bastion it's a bonus in PvP in my noob/new player opinion but how can you fight in a marauder vs 2 bs + decent logi with just 1.400 DPS in a torp golem? If you want to be used in PVP, make the bastion module give some damage buffs. The golem have gained +200mil on jita, from 0.95 to over 1.25 bil since this announce. It's too expensive, more than a pirate BS, so why would not be better than one? And if ccp is working on marauders, make the range bonus of tractor beam better. 60-70km ore more :P Just my opinion as a new and inexperienced player of eve online.
Sry Mate, but you really don't see any advantages in lvl 4 mission running with proposed changes? The ECM immunity alone will make a lot of missions much much faster. Increased range also.
CCP, just and idea: why don't you add a 50% damage bonus to racial SMALL weapons. How would you like to see marauder fitted with mixed weaponry (as a true battleship should)? It would compensate for web and drone loss, allow for alternate use of high slots, and make a unique and fun ship. |

Teantis
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:14:00 -
[1409] - Quote
I honestly can't see this as turning marauders into anything except more gimmicky versions of what they already are. The bastion module is going to have very limited use in actual PVP because an increase in active tank, sizable though it is, isn't worth the tradeoff in terms of mobility, especially on a battleship size hull. Battleships are already very vulnerable to blap dreads, and making them stationary will only make them more so, especially since active tanks don't really do anything to combat a ship that can just straight up alpha you off the field. The MJD bonus is similarly gimmicky, as they're mainly used in larger fleets where marauders are cost-prohibitive. Also, removing the web bonus from the paladin and kronos, which is the main reason you see any marauders used in pvp at all at this time, strikes me as a bad idea if you want to encourage them to be used in pvp in the first place.
With that said, the bastion mode is going to be hilarious for pve, where you'll be able to get a null kronos with a ridiculous active tank applying damage reliably at 60km, rather than the 35 or so you max out at now. It'll especially make doing the serpentis sites with the rats that orbit at ~50km much less painful in a kronos, and you won't really miss the webs, which I personally very rarely used while doing sites with the kronos anyway, because you can replace them with double TCs instead.
In all I don't think these changes will actually achieve your goal of more marauders used in pvp, but will make them hilarious pve rapemachines. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:14:00 -
[1410] - Quote
This is going to be a composite post made of several separate quotes I feel are a cogent analysis of the Dev's proposed marauder changes.
"You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays." "and lose DPS because the drone bandwidth is one third of what it was." 'DPS=drones + turrets/launchers Give them all the ability to use heavies/sentires. that would help to bridge the gap as mentioned above" "i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission" "the thing that keeps them on the side line for PvP now is their stupidly low sensor strength. no point bringing in a bs that can easily be perma jammed by 1 flight of light ecm drones." "Now that I look at it again, the drone bay thing is really hideous. The Vindicator has 11 effective turrets and 125mbit drone bandwidth. Please give these at least 100mbit/175m3." "I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine." "I prefer the same flexibility with mediums too. So, 2 flights of lights, 2 flights of mediums, and 1 flight of salvage ... :) Too much to ask for?75 for the lights + salvage ... then 100 more for the medium drone options for Amarr and Galente. :)" "The MJD bonus is okay, but it doesn't resolve the main reason why Marauders aren't used in PvP; the fact that a frigate with 5 light ECM drones can keep a Marauder permanently jammed, due to it's horrid sensor strength. And since they can be so easily jammed, no one wants to risk a 700 mil ship that can be completely neutralized. You want to fix them? Make their sensor strength the same or better than their T1 variants. You will then see them in more fleets." "Paladin needs the cap bonus changed. Bake that into the hull, then add something else. A tracking bonus would be nice, especially without drones. " "I fly the Kronos more then any other ship in eve, and i am training the Paladin now. Tell me what is the point of killing anything outside of 40KM range in a ship that cant move. Your making it so stuff takes longer. And a nerf to the drones?? At the moment i fly with a set of salvage, scout and change between a set of 5 medium or 3 heavy/sentry drones. I always thought this ship would be getting more drone ability, not less. Not one of these changes has addressed that fact that other (pirate) ships do better then these ships. The changes seem great for PVP But not one single person who has trained these skills for this ship has done so for this reason. I think you are giving new people a reason to train these at the expensive of everyone that trained these for their original purpose." "No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes." "i would have been happy if all they did was increase the PG and left the rest the same.... If you want to be this radical, the dps boost should be added to bastion mode. And why you gotta take away my drones? i like not taking years to kill PVE frigates.....thats just a smack in the face. Its not like they give use damage boost" "Second, wrecking the drone bay is simply dumb. People use that for Sentry DPS, or salvage drones. Why are you gimping the effective DPS on these ships? And please don't talk to me about how the improved range on guns will improve effective DPS. On long range stuff, sure. But try running Buzzkill, or the 2nd room of Worlds Collide, where stuff is ON TOP of you, when you land." "Really doesn't make sense to reduce the drone bay space so drastically on these big ships.. it's nonsense, please don't do it, the reduction in drone bandwidth is just as ridiculous." A big +1 to every one of these points of view. Thank you MB
|
|

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:16:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote: Sry Mate, but you really don't see any advantages in lvl 4 mission running with proposed changes? The ECM immunity alone will make a lot of missions much much faster. Increased range also.
Yeah...you are right. I am used to fight guristas and their target jamming it's not something bad as long as I have some Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile. Wich I've always had just in case. Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

Tratari
Broke Sauce
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:24:00 -
[1412] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive :-)
Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away? That's rather the point. It gives PVE players a chance to do pve in hostile space....
Who in their right mind is gonna solo PVE in hostile space with a 1.2b ISK hull? |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1402
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:31:00 -
[1413] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:This is going to be a composite post made of several separate quotes I feel are a cogent analysis of the Dev's proposed marauder changes.
"You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays." "and lose DPS because the drone bandwidth is one third of what it was." 'DPS=drones + turrets/launchers Give them all the ability to use heavies/sentires. that would help to bridge the gap as mentioned above" "i would agree that losing the drones and web buff would just make these a huge liability in PvE, yeah you could tank for a long time but that will do little to help you deal with the frigs that get close and keep you scrammed and webbed. would make marauders mostly a liability in a mission" "the thing that keeps them on the side line for PvP now is their stupidly low sensor strength. no point bringing in a bs that can easily be perma jammed by 1 flight of light ecm drones." "Now that I look at it again, the drone bay thing is really hideous. The Vindicator has 11 effective turrets and 125mbit drone bandwidth. Please give these at least 100mbit/175m3." "I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine." "I prefer the same flexibility with mediums too. So, 2 flights of lights, 2 flights of mediums, and 1 flight of salvage ... :) Too much to ask for?75 for the lights + salvage ... then 100 more for the medium drone options for Amarr and Galente. :)" "The MJD bonus is okay, but it doesn't resolve the main reason why Marauders aren't used in PvP; the fact that a frigate with 5 light ECM drones can keep a Marauder permanently jammed, due to it's horrid sensor strength. And since they can be so easily jammed, no one wants to risk a 700 mil ship that can be completely neutralized. You want to fix them? Make their sensor strength the same or better than their T1 variants. You will then see them in more fleets." "Paladin needs the cap bonus changed. Bake that into the hull, then add something else. A tracking bonus would be nice, especially without drones. " "I fly the Kronos more then any other ship in eve, and i am training the Paladin now. Tell me what is the point of killing anything outside of 40KM range in a ship that cant move. Your making it so stuff takes longer. And a nerf to the drones?? At the moment i fly with a set of salvage, scout and change between a set of 5 medium or 3 heavy/sentry drones. I always thought this ship would be getting more drone ability, not less. Not one of these changes has addressed that fact that other (pirate) ships do better then these ships. The changes seem great for PVP But not one single person who has trained these skills for this ship has done so for this reason. I think you are giving new people a reason to train these at the expensive of everyone that trained these for their original purpose." "No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes." "i would have been happy if all they did was increase the PG and left the rest the same.... If you want to be this radical, the dps boost should be added to bastion mode. And why you gotta take away my drones? i like not taking years to kill PVE frigates.....thats just a smack in the face. Its not like they give use damage boost" "Second, wrecking the drone bay is simply dumb. People use that for Sentry DPS, or salvage drones. Why are you gimping the effective DPS on these ships? And please don't talk to me about how the improved range on guns will improve effective DPS. On long range stuff, sure. But try running Buzzkill, or the 2nd room of Worlds Collide, where stuff is ON TOP of you, when you land." "Really doesn't make sense to reduce the drone bay space so drastically on these big ships.. it's nonsense, please don't do it, the reduction in drone bandwidth is just as ridiculous." A big +1 to every one of these points of view. Thank you MB
i cannot talk for incursion runners or pvp marauder folks but in missions anything more than a flight of lights (and maybe a flight of salvage drones) is absolutely irrelevant in terms of dps. i can see the kronos still having a flight of sentries because it's a gallente ship after all but the other three could have 25/50 bandwidth/bay and be perfectly fine, even before bastion bonuses. (i'm assuming current stats and the mjd bonus for convenience.)
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
608
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:35:00 -
[1414] - Quote
I have a really good idea: instead of going forward with the proposal in the OP, reboot the entire T2 battleship lineup.
First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.
Then, having actually created a specialized T2 BS hull for PvE, take the Marauder class title, take re-skins of the formerly-tier 3 battleships, and make a class that's actually useful for PvP in hostile space. Make these ships similar to what blackops battleships are currently, but without the jump portal generators and with an obvious combat focus instead of the hodgepodge of attributes that current blops bs have:
- T1ish resists and average-to-light tanks: smaller than normal tanks for a battleship, with T1 resists to ensure that they can't be used effectively in large fleets with logi support - Jump drive equipped, can jump to covert cynos - CANNOT fit jump portal generators or covert cynos or take covert bridges - 4 weapons, 75-100% damage boost from role bonus for 7-8 effective weapons - 7 highs - Bonuses to normal cloaking devices: -100% targeting delay after decloaking, -100% to cloak scan resolution penalty - Takes blackops BS' current role bonus to ship velocity while cloaked - Large drone bays regardless of available bandwidth, to allow for plenty of spare flights of drones - Generous cargo bays (on the large side of the normal battleship range) plus fuel and ammunition bays, to allow the ship to carry enough consumables for extended use without resupplying - Unusually high agility / speed for battleship hulls (make them handle like a battlecruiser) - Damage output should be on the low end of the battleship damage spectrum (as blops BS are currently) in another effort to offset their mobility advantages
These ships would actually be good for using as heavier dps support in hostile space, having bonuses that allow them to stay a step ahead of their opponents, ambushing targets and hiding when necessary, while trading some of the damage output and tank that you'd normally get from a T1 battleship in exchange. They should be less at home in a straight up brawl than a T1 battleship (which will hopefully keep them within their niche role as part of a blackops gang rather than presenting a viable ship for large-scale deployment), but should really excel (for a battleship, anyway) at their "Marauding" role-- lurking about in hostile space and providing the muscle to quickly snuff out a target and run off again when opportunities present themselves. They won't be as evasive or mobile as something like a nano-HAC, but will provide more staying power in exchange.
Finally, revamp Blackops battleships to actually fit into more of a support role, instead of the current arrangement where they try to be half gang support, half combat ship while excelling at neither role:
- 4 weapons, 50% role bonus to damage for 6 effective turrets - 7-8 highslots - Jump drive equipped - Fit covert ops cloaks (same as recon ships-- no scan res penalty, targeting delay after decloaking) - Battlecruiser-like hitpoints - Battlecruiser-like agility - Miniature SMA sized to fit maybe a cruiser + a frigate, or several frigate hulls - Fitting service accessible by one fleet member at a time-- force this to be an out-of-combat feature by making it only active when no modules are activated on the blackops battleship - Large cargo hold, large fuel bay (larger than Marauders), large consumables bay (ammo, paste, charges, etc... maybe code it so that anchorable bubbles will go in as well) - Bonuses to debuffs-- web range, neut range, etc much like recon hulls, but with smaller bonuses (leave recons as the last word in providing debuff support from stand-off ranges) - Possibly a probing bonus a la recons as well? - Mediocre to poor damage output for a battleship (6 effective turrets, single weapon bonus, tweak powergrid output and fitting requirements of covert jump portal generator such that it's difficult to fit a full rack of top-tier large guns as well as a bunch of neuts / support items in the utility highs)
Basically the idea here is to steer blackops away from DPS-oriented fits, making them a little more fragile than they currently are and reducing their damage output, while giving them a useful role to play as a provider of logistical and combat support to their gangs. Blackops will be better for sneaking about, doing recon tasks, will be able to bridge covert ships, and will be able to provide out-of-combat refitting support to their gang, as well as being able to haul along significantly more fuel and consumables than any other covert ship short of a blockade runner. When participating in combat directly, I'd prefer to see blackops function in more of a support role than they do currently, providing debuffs to inflict on hostile ships rather than significant DPS contributions-- they should be *part* of a gang composition for operating in hostile space, not the primary component.
Such a reboot of the T2 battleship lineup would result in a useful PvE-specialized ship, a useful direct combat PvP ship specialized for use in hostile space, and a sort of gang support ship specialized for use in hostile space to compliment a marauding T2 BS / recon / bomber group. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:41:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: It makes a lot of sense to turn it into a short range high damage dealer when in bastion - possibly even give web bonuses to all of them - a sticky fly trap sort of ship or for close range damage like towers. The amount of time it takes to get out of this mode balances it, i think, for pvp as people can just get out if they werent webbed in the first place. Taking away the 'remote assistance and ewar' part would make it useful in incursions and pvp in general.
Its expense and skill time would make it difficult to use for huge fleet battles, and if it was used, it would be a gankmagnet for killmail whores, and if there was a fleet doctrine for it, then people would have to pay attention to phsycial location a bit more - i dont know if thats good or bad.
So yeah... id like to see it become a short range high damage dealer while immobile
-- or go even CRAZIER with it! Make it an "immobile weapons platform" and let it use capital weapons :D It would make it an ACTUAL stepping stone if they did that, possibly have the bastion module enable the capital guns so if you dont have it, you can still fit the ship with regular guns and simply not use bastion mode so it still has a purpose
and im guessing the hull animations are already done - but if they arent - the animation could be for revealing the capital turrets
and i mean its already been done with tier3 BCs, a higher weapon class on a smaller ship, it would be awesome :D
i just wanted to restate that perhaps in addition to having a siege mode like a dreadnought, it would be cool if they had other features that put you on a course towards capitals.
One of the current problems with the bastion module is that Because it modifies the regular mode, the regular mode is getting nerfed, and we aren't getting proper resists. Its just making regular mode useless. If the bastion module just allowed you to turn on capital modules already on the ship (capital weapons, capital tractor beam, dont know about others....) then it wouldn't have to nerf the regular mode when Not using the bastion module because in regular mode, you wouldnt be able to use those modules.
You could go even MORE INSANE by making 1 or 2 of them fighter/fighter bomber based XD But maybe thats a bit far. Either way we already have oversized weapons on tier3s.
Doing this would not only be awesome, but it would also make industrialists happy for the new need for capital modules and xlarge ammo
|

Gul Amarr
Orange County Cruisers
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:46:00 -
[1416] - Quote
Razefummel wrote:Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ? Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done. just saying.
Greetings
Raze
No - CCPs aim is to make T2 ships less effective than T1 ships and adding some entirely useless gimmick-bonus to justify a tenfold price increse.
Remember HACs. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
285
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:17:00 -
[1417] - Quote
Gul Amarr wrote:Razefummel wrote:Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ? Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done. just saying.
Greetings
Raze No - CCPs aim is to make T2 ships less effective than T1 ships and adding some entirely useless gimmick-bonus to justify a tenfold price increse. Remember HACs.
I liked your comment, because I agree with the marauder part. However, I am very pleased with the changes to HACs and will be using them extensively.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:21:00 -
[1418] - Quote
So long as the golem gets an explosion radius bonus as well as velocity. I'd even say drop the bonus from 25% velocity to 15% velocity and 15% radius. The increase in applied damage would be much better in this format and not step on the RNI's toes at the same time.
A straight 25% velocity bonus feels like a cop-out: cruises don't need to be faster. Torps aren't exactly a long range weapon.
If rebalancing torps on golems is so god damn important let's rebalance the ammo itself and then adjust bombers down a bit so they come out of the pass in the same position while all other torp users get a boost. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:56:00 -
[1419] - Quote
I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:03:00 -
[1420] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill.
No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range.
In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:07:00 -
[1421] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill. No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range. In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit
How much alpha do incursions actually have? XLASBs boost instantly, and the Marauders would have between 170k-200k EHP. Unless 20k sustained tank is insufficient I just don't see how it wouldn't work. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:14:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill. No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range. In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit How much alpha do incursions actually have? XLASBs boost instantly, and the Marauders would have between 170k-200k EHP. Unless 20k sustained tank is insufficient I just don't see how it wouldn't work.
Honestly i am not entirely certain, i havent done the math on it so you may be right in that it could tank an incursion. But i doubt it, having flown in incursions a lot and seeing the sustained amount of damage move me from 100 -50% back and forth every few seconds in a 120k ehp bs.
But even if it can tank an incursion, which i doubt, its dps still wont be any higher than pirates (and its application via range will be no better except maybe blasters - but then you cant move to apply it) and you cant have anything but marauders in the fleet etc etc i see way too many problems |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
285
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:14:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill. No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range. In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit How much alpha do incursions actually have? XLASBs boost instantly, and the Marauders would have between 170k-200k EHP. Unless 20k sustained tank is insufficient I just don't see how it wouldn't work.
From memory, basilisks need about 30k EHP to withstand the alpha of the mothership's bombers.
170k ehp is looking comfortable.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:16:00 -
[1424] - Quote
Great, something refreshing at last. The loss of some drones however i think is quite bad, due to the scramming and attacking frigs in missions, but I am not too worried. Will have to try this out when available and then I will provide more feedback. I am currently using Marauders for missioning. They are not great. Let's see the bastion module if it has any good use in missions as well. The main issue will be when you are not running it, as overall HPs have dropped. The timer thingy is unclear to me... does it mean i cannot use it in missions or people will come and shoot at me? if so, that is not adding any fun, too much risk. Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
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Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:16:00 -
[1425] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Xequecal wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill. No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range. In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit How much alpha do incursions actually have? XLASBs boost instantly, and the Marauders would have between 170k-200k EHP. Unless 20k sustained tank is insufficient I just don't see how it wouldn't work. From memory, basilisks need about 30k EHP to withstand the alpha of the mothership's bombers. 170k ehp is looking comfortable.
well the ehp on a basi/scimi is a bit different because they also sig+speed tank so its not accurate to compare to a battleship
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:16:00 -
[1426] - Quote
Daniel Plain " in missions anything more than a flight of lights (and maybe a flight of salvage drones) is absolutely irrelevant in terms of dps."
So anything more than 5 lights in any mission any where is doing it wrong? How magnanimous of you to let us know how wrong we have been all these years, using more than 5 lights. Man, what were we thinking? I get 190 dps from 3 sentries or 3 heavy drones but my fitting woindow must be broke cause thats nearly double the DPS I get with 5 lights? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:26:00 -
[1427] - Quote
Zaxix wrote: The SHIP is supposed to be specialized. As in specialized for a particular use.
BTW, your little argument about T3 fleets is about as flawed as it can be. There are massive T3 fleets. Just looking at your one post and none of the others, it seems pretty obvious you don't do much reading of the news sites, dev posts, or other information sources. Go to TMC and EN24 and read the last two months of battle reports.
Yes, but specialized to a use doesn't have to mean stuck running L4 missions and nothing else.
Also, and I apologize if my argument was somewhat convoluted, I was simply questioning the assertion of a literal entire fleet, as in ~200 players, full of T3s on a single side. My actual assertion is that T3s lack both the overall cost of Marauders and have a much less intensive skill train to get into them, especially when both of these things are taken relative to the effectiveness of the ships in question.
I think that T3s are used because of their relatively low cost and training time relative to their effectiveness. SP Loss just doesn't factor into alliance fleet doctrines, especially not for something as tanky as T3 Cruisers.
Alec Freeman wrote:I like this idea.
However i feel it would be vastly improved if Turrets & Missiles where given a Damage bonus rather than tracking / range.
Damage bonus would aid all weapons systems equally and would mean that long range arty / beam / rail platformed marauders would be more interesting.
It would also give them more purpous in PvP as anti capital strike craft and highsec POS bashers.
Damage king seems slated to go to the Pirate Battleships, giving them a damage bonus in Bastion would just lead to power-creep. Also there is no Tracking Bonus on Bastion Mode.
The Spod wrote:The ships should be balanced by their topmost min-maxed PVE capability as far as PVE goes to make sure they don't obsolete each other or pirate BS.
DPS with current ranges: (Assuming all V, 4 faction damage mods, 3 range focused mods and 1 tracking mod)
Golem 1258dps Rage torpedo (26km) or 1070dps CN torpedo (30km) Kronos 1504dps Void (10+13km), 1348dps CNAM (6+26km) or 1074dps Null (19+37km) Paladin 1218dps Conflag (20+17km), 1040dps IN gamma (26+20km) or 877dps Scorch (62+20km) Vargur 1177dps Hail (4+56km), 1054dps RF ammo (4+75km)
With the optimal buff Paladin with Conflagration will reach 27km base optimal.
With the siege mode buff all the ships will be very efficient at 30km-40km range and similiarly effective at 50km far orbit range. However, the Golem is lacking because of it's limited torpedo range and bad damage application with Rage torpedoes.
I would look into improving the Golem siege bonus to missile velocity AND travel time to make the Rage build more viable at PVE ranges. 25% to both missile velocity and fuel when sieged, based on the potential numbers on each of the ships.
This is likely to come in the form of Rise's hinted at Missile Damage Application modules. Balancing by raw DPS is generally a poor idea though since that doesn't take into account damage application ability, max and min range, or any number of other factors.
DSpite Culhach wrote:I was actually expecting the Marauder changes to add more ... flexibility to the hulls. I kinda feel that putting them in "Siege mode" is going the other way, I already do a siege mode of sorts by sitting in a Rattlesnake and putting sentries out, sitting there shooting like mad, usually with MJD uses to get to the next gate.
If a siege mode was added I actually would have also expected numbers to go the other way. For example, have cruise missiles fly much shorter range (like an overburn) but hit much harder as a balance, cause you'd turn it on when you are surrounded, in trouble and getting pounded, or boost radius to Smartbombs, or Gallante to actually get MORE drone options like faster flying, harder to hit drones, etc etc.
Since this hull has not been touched in many many years, I'm sort of scared that when the new changes stick, it will probably not get touched again, like, ever. Would be nice if we get a large majority happy with changes, hence I would prefer this suckers stay on SiSi only until they get tested to death. I've been trying to skill up just for this, but multiple BS V's and support/weapon skills take a ... while.
If players have gone this long without Marauder changes, I'm sure a BIT longer won't kill them.
T2 hulls are not supposed to be Flexible, they are supposed to be Specialized, per the original dev-blog on ship re-balancing.
Also trading range for damage on a long range weapon system is a bad idea because iit risks invaildating the shorter range system and adding a big damage bonus to a T2 Battleship class isn't likely to happen because they're already inherently tanky and Pirate Battleships are supposed to be the highest damage battleship class, again per that dev blog and comments made in the OP by Ytterbium.
Yes, support 5s take a while, that's sort of the point, to make these hulls worth the training time if you want to get into them.
Also in-case you missed it these aren't happening until the Winter patch. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:29:00 -
[1428] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:well the ehp on a basi/scimi is a bit different because they also sig+speed tank so its not accurate to compare to a battleship
and the other problem is sustaining it, what if you run out of booster charges? XD incursion sites, depending on which one, can last up to 20 minutes or longer depending on fleet. (with the shortest being approximately 10min)
You'll get about 7 minutes of sustained tanking before running out, but that's only if you need the full 20,000 dps tank. If you need less and can just pulse the thing it'll last much longer.
The site might last 20 minutes but they don't target just one ship the entire time. Even if they did, have everyone fit a tractor beam in their spare highs and have someone jettison you some boosters and then tractor the can over. You could also just have an industrial jettison a cargohold full of them into the site and then have people tractor it over to restock. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:34:00 -
[1429] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Battle Cube wrote:well the ehp on a basi/scimi is a bit different because they also sig+speed tank so its not accurate to compare to a battleship
and the other problem is sustaining it, what if you run out of booster charges? XD incursion sites, depending on which one, can last up to 20 minutes or longer depending on fleet. (with the shortest being approximately 10min) You'll get about 7 minutes of sustained tanking before running out, but that's only if you need the full 20,000 dps tank. If you need less and can just pulse the thing it'll last much longer. The site might last 20 minutes but they don't target just one ship the entire time. Even if they did, have everyone fit a tractor beam in their spare highs and have someone jettison you some boosters and then tractor the can over. You could also just have an industrial jettison a cargohold full of them into the site and then have people tractor it over to restock.
even if it does work - now how often do you have to reload cap charges? And that projected dps had better be amazing cause you arent going to be moving in the site... maybe triangular mjd for positions.... and tractor beaming cans of charges..... etc etc, Tons of micromanaging just to survive, and whats the benefit? Currently it doesnt outweigh the losses. Some range.... and no more logies. We can already do that with say, tachyon spider tanked moving nightmares XD
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
286
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:37:00 -
[1430] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: well the ehp on a basi/scimi is a bit different because they also sig+speed tank so its not accurate to compare to a battleship
and the other problem is sustaining it, what if you run out of booster charges? XD incursion sites, depending on which one, can last up to 20 minutes or longer depending on fleet. (with the shortest being approximately 10min)
Haven't tried it with the golem. My spreadsheet tells me that a vargur in bastion mode with some faction gear and a fleet booster will perma-tank 10k dps for a grand total of 10 million EHP of damage before the cap boosters run out. That's putting aside some low slots and a rig for cargo expanders.
For 10 million EHP to be exhausted after 20 minutes you'd need to be taking 8333 dps continuously for the entire 20 minutes.
The golem has more mid slots so it will do this better than the vargur.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:38:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:even if it does work - now how often do you have to reload cap charges? And that projected dps had better be amazing cause you arent going to be moving in the site... maybe triangular mjd for positions.... and tractor beaming cans of charges..... etc etc, Tons of micromanaging just to survive, and whats the benefit? Currently it doesnt outweigh the losses. Some range.... and no more logies. We can already do that with say, tachyon spider tanked moving nightmares XD
I'm really wondering how you manage spider-tanking nightmares without micromanaging and burning a shitload of cap charges. Shield transporters have an 8400m optimal, that's like the pinnacle of micromanaging to make that work.
It increases your DPS because you can take all the people you had in logis and put them in marauders for hugely increased DPS, or just show up without any logi at all and not have to give them a cut.
Also, IMHO it will vastly decrease drama because the only way you'll lose your ship is if YOU screw up. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:41:00 -
[1432] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote: well the ehp on a basi/scimi is a bit different because they also sig+speed tank so its not accurate to compare to a battleship
and the other problem is sustaining it, what if you run out of booster charges? XD incursion sites, depending on which one, can last up to 20 minutes or longer depending on fleet. (with the shortest being approximately 10min)
Haven't tried it with the golem. My spreadsheet tells me that a vargur in bastion mode with some faction gear and a fleet booster will perma-tank 10k dps for a grand total of 10 million EHP of damage before the cap boosters run out. That's putting aside some low slots and a rig for cargo expanders. For 10 million EHP to be exhausted after 20 minutes you'd need to be taking 8333 dps continuously for the entire 20 minutes. The golem has more mid slots so it will do this better than the vargur.
again, it might be possible. But if you start taking away low slots for your tank, you are losing dps, exactly the opposite of what you want in an incursion ship. And even if you can tank perfectly throughout the entire site, then you still arent gaining anything over a pirate ship for something that costs the same but requires more skills - ASSUMING the pirate bs doesnt just straight up out dps it significantly, which i think will happen |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:43:00 -
[1433] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Yay for pve. I totally cannot judge what those things will do to station games, to gate camps and to solo, I have no idea. Them having not the most buffer and people regularily just undockng *enough* dps or enough neuts (for armorships) to kill you a la carte, or just slowly walking away from your stationary marauder(s) at a camp.
At least for station games there shouldn't be much effect at all, since they get a weapons timer in Bastion, meaning they not only have to survive through the Bastion cycle but for another 60 seconds after it ends.
Zeus Maximo wrote:1. Kronos and Paladin were prime pvp ships with their 90% webs
2. If CCP even remotely thought of these for Large POS's in high sec then they failed. Need a DPS multiplier
3. If the ship can't move in siege, they have 1 web(no 90% webs anymore), every ship will be able to burn away.
4. These ships were buffed for 2 reasons: A) Obvious bait B) Better missioning ships that need cheaper mods to survive
I don't see how any of these changes help a pvper
They're not supposed to be general purpose PvP ships, they're supposed to have a few possible niche uses, likely in small gangs more than solo or large fleets.
The 90% web bonus was likely removed for exactly this reason.
Also I highly doubt that CCP is out to wreck high-sec POSes with T2 Battleships. There are already better setups that involve bringing friends.
Meyr wrote: "I heartily endorse the above-mentioned product and/or service!"
Actually, it goes a long way towards:
A) Justifying the high price tags these ships have.
B) Would encourage a few of the bolder pilots to try a Lvl 5 agent (admittedly not for long, as the risk/reward simply isn't there)
C) Gives the Marauder a definite, albeit narrowly-focused, advantage over the Pirate Battleships
D) Gives a small ISK/hour bump to Marauder pilots without introducing weapon bonus changes
E) Provides for a better ability to salvage (more MWD = more effective tractor beam range)
Specifically on C, D, and E:
They are supposed to have a small and focused advantage over Pirate Battleships in tanking ability while the Pirate Battleships are likely going to be rebalanced into strong Attack Battleships.
Damage application and E-War immunity actually both give you a small bump in isk generation by allowing you to apply the damage you have more effectively at longer ranges and preventing you from being slowed down by ECM, Sensor Dampening or Tracking Disruption.
A T2 Tractor Beam actually goes to 48km with the current bonus, meaning you're a short burn and a MJD slide away from being able to tractor anything in the site. If you prefer to have everything up close there's nothing preventing you from fitting short-range guns, ignoring the MJD bonus in favor of a MWD for burning between gates, and pounding the mission into dust within tractor beam range. And of-course for missions where things spawn far-out you can still MJD into the middle of things and then jump back to the gate.
With short-range guns the range boost helps just as much as with long-range guns by allowing you to apply better damage at longer ranges.
Razefummel wrote:Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ? Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done. just saying.
Greetings
Raze
If by balancing you mean "we now have T2 Battleship sized HACs, then yes sure. This would be *bad* and would not actually make Marauders any more attractive for PvE over Navy or Pirate battleships.
kahn liam wrote: it's pretty usefull for using in conjunction with blap dreads and cheaper then vindis....
granted with the complete roll change they might not even be used for that any longer, but still i'd rather the webs then the falloff. maybe that's just me.
I think you have more or less hit the nail on the head for why it's being removed. It supports Dread-Blapping and is overall entirely too good in too many situations. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:44:00 -
[1434] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Battle Cube wrote:even if it does work - now how often do you have to reload cap charges? And that projected dps had better be amazing cause you arent going to be moving in the site... maybe triangular mjd for positions.... and tractor beaming cans of charges..... etc etc, Tons of micromanaging just to survive, and whats the benefit? Currently it doesnt outweigh the losses. Some range.... and no more logies. We can already do that with say, tachyon spider tanked moving nightmares XD
I'm really wondering how you manage spider-tanking nightmares without micromanaging and burning a shitload of cap charges. Shield transporters have an 8400m optimal, that's like the pinnacle of micromanaging to make that work. It increases your DPS because you can take all the people you had in logis and put them in marauders for hugely increased DPS, or just show up without any logi at all and not have to give them a cut. Also, IMHO it will vastly decrease drama because the only way you'll lose your ship is if YOU screw up.
thats my point, the nightmare thing is possible, but Not optimal. And putting your logies into marauders? Im sure you just mean in general, but in reality those players most likely wont have the skills for it... but yeah i get the point. Either way finding enough marauders for a fleet will be difficult - i know that doesnt really matter as to their viability, but its not a plus. And there is no drama really currently in losing a ship. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
286
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:46:00 -
[1435] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote: well the ehp on a basi/scimi is a bit different because they also sig+speed tank so its not accurate to compare to a battleship
and the other problem is sustaining it, what if you run out of booster charges? XD incursion sites, depending on which one, can last up to 20 minutes or longer depending on fleet. (with the shortest being approximately 10min)
Haven't tried it with the golem. My spreadsheet tells me that a vargur in bastion mode with some faction gear and a fleet booster will perma-tank 10k dps for a grand total of 10 million EHP of damage before the cap boosters run out. That's putting aside some low slots and a rig for cargo expanders. For 10 million EHP to be exhausted after 20 minutes you'd need to be taking 8333 dps continuously for the entire 20 minutes. The golem has more mid slots so it will do this better than the vargur. again, it might be possible. But if you start taking away low slots for your tank, you are losing dps, exactly the opposite of what you want in an incursion ship. And even if you can tank perfectly throughout the entire site, then you still arent gaining anything over a pirate ship for something that costs the same but requires more skills - ASSUMING the pirate bs doesnt just straight up out dps it significantly, which i think will happen
Please don't misunderstand me. I actually think any subcapital ship being able to tank anywhere near 10,000 dps for 20 minutes straight is an abomination. To continue with a design at such an early stage that will allow this is not sensible.
I would urge the design team to stop now and rethink the bastion module.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:49:00 -
[1436] - Quote
if they insist on a tanking bonus, i would prefer a large buffer without rep bonuses.... so it has to come out of bastion in order to get repaired...... |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 01:06:00 -
[1437] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I don't think i have ever used the stasis bonus on the paladin, frigs hardly ever get that close so the optimal range bonus makes more sense. as for the kronos, i prefer the fall-off bonus but the web bonus is still useful. Not having the web bonus is a major kick in the teeth, because that translates to a 400% increase in target velocity. If they want to give the Kronos a 400% bonus to blaster tracking to compensate I'm down with that, but I very much doubt it would happen.... Also there is a ridiculous assertion in this thread that the 90% web bonus was overpowered: Large blasters are an oddity - sub 10km optimal on a very slow platform, fundamentally only really works if you can pin down any targets straying in range to near stationary. Overpowered? not really, because you simply kite said slow, lumbering platform outside of 13km. I should also point out, from the perspective of someone who extensively flew blasterthrons back in the day of 90% webs (2004-2008), that it was still perfectly viable back then to get in under the guns in frigate sized platforms (heck if you got close enough in a cruiser you could still mess up tracking sufficiently), the only recourse the blasterthron pilot had was to 'tickle' the MWD to attempt to pull a little bit of range. In the days of MWD-killing scrams, boosted afterburners, and tracking disrupters bolted into spare mid slots, 90% webs on a lumbering vulnerable Battleship platform are in no way overpowered. P.s back in the day the Kronos had 99% webs....
This was also back before a ton of changes to speed and speed stacking. These days if you try to get under the guns on a 90% web bonused ship you end up as an expanding cloud of plasma.
Also if you actually take a look at the stats on most Gallente ships they've all gotten increased speed and maneuverability to better be able to apply Blaster damage. This went along with the Hybrid Weapons changes back in ~2010 and has only been reinforced by the ship re-balancing.
Tratari wrote: Who in their right mind is gonna solo PVE in hostile space with a 1.2b ISK hull?
Go ask all the Null Sec guys who use Pirate Battleships for PvE? Or Carriers for that matter.
Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill.
Current thinking is more or less "we'll have to see". The question isn't really whether or not they'll be able to tank them in Bastion it's whether or not they'll be able to do with without relying on resupplying cap-boosters every three sites, which cuts into profit margins and eats up time. There's certainly no question that they won't be viable outside of Vanguard sites.
Overall I don't really expect them to use Bastion in Incursions, I do expect them to be used though due to the massive number of utility highs for ETs and emergency reps and the solid base resists over T1 and faction battleships.
Battle Cube wrote:if they insist on a tanking bonus, i would prefer a large buffer without rep bonuses.... so it has to come out of bastion in order to get repaired......
Overall I'm not sure how concerned we need to be about massive tanks on these things. They trade off most of their EHP in favor of those massive repair rates which means even a small group will likely be able to burn through their tank between repair cycles.
As for Cyno bait you're better off buffer fit because 9 times out of 10 there's Logistics coming through the Cyno to save your butt.
If it does become an issue I'd rather just see the repair bonus on Bastion cut down in favor of damage application bonuses. |

Meyr
Shiva The Retirement Club
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 01:36:00 -
[1438] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.
Then, having actually created a specialized T2 BS hull for PvE, take the Marauder class title, take re-skins of the formerly-tier 3 battleships, and make a class that's actually useful for PvP in hostile space. Make these ships similar to what blackops battleships are currently, but without the jump portal generators and with an obvious combat focus instead of the hodgepodge of attributes that current blops bs have:
- T1ish resists and average-to-light tanks: smaller than normal tanks for a battleship, with T1 resists to ensure that they can't be used effectively in large fleets with logi support - Jump drive equipped, can jump to covert cynos - CANNOT fit jump portal generators or covert cynos or take covert bridges - 4 weapons, 75-100% damage boost from role bonus for 7-8 effective weapons - 7 highs - Bonuses to normal cloaking devices: -100% targeting delay after decloaking, -100% to cloak scan resolution penalty - Takes blackops BS' current role bonus to ship velocity while cloaked - Large drone bays regardless of available bandwidth, to allow for plenty of spare flights of drones - Generous cargo bays (on the large side of the normal battleship range) plus fuel and ammunition bays, to allow the ship to carry enough consumables for extended use without resupplying - Unusually high agility / speed for battleship hulls (make them handle like a battlecruiser) - Damage output should be on the low end of the battleship damage spectrum (as blops BS are currently) in another effort to offset their mobility advantages
These ships would actually be good for using as heavier dps support in hostile space, having bonuses that allow them to stay a step ahead of their opponents, ambushing targets and hiding when necessary, while trading some of the damage output and tank that you'd normally get from a T1 battleship in exchange. They should be less at home in a straight up brawl than a T1 battleship (which will hopefully keep them within their niche role as part of a blackops gang rather than presenting a viable ship for large-scale deployment), but should really excel (for a battleship, anyway) at their "Marauding" role-- lurking about in hostile space and providing the muscle to quickly snuff out a target and run off again when opportunities present themselves. They won't be as evasive or mobile as something like a nano-HAC, but will provide more staying power in exchange.
Finally, revamp Blackops battleships to actually fit into more of a support role, instead of the current arrangement:
- 4 weapons, 50% role bonus to damage for 6 effective turrets - 7-8 highslots - Jump drive equipped - Fit covert ops cloaks (same as recon ships-- no scan res penalty, targeting delay after decloaking) - Battlecruiser-like hitpoints - Battlecruiser-like agility - Miniature SMA sized to fit maybe a cruiser + a frigate, or several frigate hulls - Fitting service accessible by one fleet member at a time-- force this to be an out-of-combat feature by making it only active when no modules are activated on the blackops battleship - Large cargo hold, large fuel bay (larger than Marauders), large consumables bay (ammo, paste, charges, etc... maybe code it so that anchorable bubbles will go in as well) - Bonuses to debuffs-- web range, neut range, etc much like recon hulls, but with smaller bonuses (leave recons as the last word in providing debuff support from stand-off ranges) - Possibly a probing bonus a la recons as well? - Mediocre to poor damage output for a battleship (6 effective turrets, single weapon bonus, tweak powergrid output and fitting requirements of covert jump portal generator such that it's difficult to fit a full rack of top-tier large guns as well as a bunch of neuts / support items in the utility highs)
Basically the idea here is to steer blackops away from DPS-oriented fits, making them a little more fragile than they currently are and reducing their damage output, while giving them a useful role to play as a provider of logistical and combat support to their gangs. Blackops will be better for sneaking about, doing recon tasks, will be able to bridge covert ships, and will be able to provide out-of-combat refitting support to their gang, as well as being able to haul along significantly more fuel and consumables than any other covert ship short of a blockade runner. When participating in combat directly, I'd prefer to see blackops function in more of a support role than they do currently, providing debuffs to inflict on hostile ships rather than significant DPS contributions-- they should be *part* of a gang composition for operating in hostile space, not the primary component.
Such a reboot of the T2 battleship lineup would result in a useful PvE-specialized ship, a useful direct combat PvP ship specialized for use in hostile space, and a sort of gang support ship specialized for use in hostile space to compliment a marauding T2 BS / recon / bomber group.
I completely agree with what a Goon wrote...
Somewhere, something has gone drastically wrong. Well written, full of good ideas. I like it!
Well done, Sir! |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 02:13:00 -
[1439] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.
I'm not sure why you dislike the MJD bonus since the MJD is already seeing use in PvE more than PvP ( not to knock its PvP applications, it's just really good for PvE). Anything that's really useful in PvE is going to have at least some PvP applicability. Most of the problems with the Marauders for PvP are also reasons they're not used over Pirate ships in PvE, damage not withstanding.
Ganthrithor wrote: Black-Ops stuff
Sorry, I'd quote the full thing but it's puts me well over the post limit.
So, I'm not sure if you've heard (and I wish I had a source for this) but CCP originally announced intent to split Black-Ops into combat and support focused rolls, with the support one keeping bonuses to bridging and the combat one focused more on being a stealth Battleship focused on mobility, more or less what you're proposing here.
Combine this with the long-running desire for a KK painted Rokh if nothing else and I'd give it good odds that we'll get the hulls your after in the Black-Ops revamp.
I don't think I agree with giving them fitting support, that's probably a bit too powerful for a combat sub-cap, but I do think we'll see a focus on mobility and agility over DPS, since they will want to differentiate them from the Pirate Battleships which seem poised to slot into an Attack Battleship roll opposite the tanking but poor mobility Marauders. |

Grunnax Aurelius
The Horny Heron's
199
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 03:27:00 -
[1440] - Quote
BRING ON THE GOLEM!!! 8K DPS OF CAPLESS TANK AND 210K OF CAPLESS ENGAGEMENT RANGE!!! Marauder: 1 Subsystem to Modulate the Role they Fulfil: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=271219 |
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Tasha Saisima
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 04:01:00 -
[1441] - Quote
These changes are bad and whoever came up with it should feel bad. |

Feffri
Death By Design
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:26:00 -
[1442] - Quote
this idea is terrible for all the reasons stated. It adds only to high sec and nothing for null and low. If there was such a thing as solo battleship pvp in high and low sec this might be cool but as stands it it nothing more then bait in low and high. I agree with simply making the sensor strength bigger so that these ships and their utility highs can be used in pvp. I think back to the drawing board is in line... why not give them the ability to join black ops and a black ops combat ships or just make them not suck for pvp in general.
Either way there are better things that can be done with these ships then this hair brained terrible idea. |

That Seems Legit
State War Academy Caldari State
104
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:31:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Yeah these really dont seem too well thought out. I really wish they'd go back to the drawing board. They'd be good for wormholes, maybe.
How bout keep the transforming idea... but make them transform into melee monsters. Massive bonus to web range and velocity, and allow them to use their tractor beams on PLAYERS ships. Add a decrease, yes a decrease to their guns range. An increase to tracking though.
Marauders grabbing ships, pulling them in, punching them in the face repeatedly then salvaging the wreck. Poorly set up gatecampers trying to run screaming from a couple of marauders yanking them in for the kill. God, how gamechangingly awesome would that be?
"oh god marauders run!"
Yep. My ideas much better. You're welcome ccp. Get to implementing.
P.S. I want my kronos renamed to Devastator when you implement my melee module. Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps! |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
99
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:47:00 -
[1444] - Quote
All i see is add MOAR PVP and MOAR DPS.
I dont See how this is add more favor to the Game, Most People in this Thread just want another Pirate BS and Claim their Idea good.
Does anyone have something fresh to offer too? |

Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:49:00 -
[1445] - Quote
Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much. Run level 4 missions? -áIncrease your income and help new players earn ISK. -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy Pro Synergy is looking for dedicated Salvagers. -áWant to learn more? -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:51:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.
I dont see golem applying dps better in future... do you see? |

Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:12:00 -
[1447] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Nikolai Vodkov wrote:Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much. I dont see golem applying dps better in future... do you see?
I do actually. It will deliver the payload 25% faster. Not as game changing as Optimal + Falloff bonus but Golems can already do 1400 DPS with overload. Now it will be able to project that DPS further. Run level 4 missions? -áIncrease your income and help new players earn ISK. -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy Pro Synergy is looking for dedicated Salvagers. -áWant to learn more? -áJoin channel: Pro Synergy |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:13:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.
having more dps to apply means if you are where you should be, you do more dps. Applying more of the little dps you have, means its easier to apply that smaller amount of dps.... but if you didnt apply it before, you were doing it wrong. |

Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:17:00 -
[1449] - Quote
I only see a few problems ...first off ..kronos + paladin get used into pvp well somethimes ..with the mini station status they wont be able to track ships that orbit them @ 500 meters ..because u know ..no more -90% webs ..so those bonuses should remain second off ..boost dps on golem a little bit to be in order with the rest of the marauders third off ..judging by the new bonuses + module + slot layout u just made marauders into farming ships..like enter a 10/10 ..deploy ..and shoot while tanking the 2131321 dps...also u ask for feedback like in any other treath but the outcome will be the same ..u will deploy the patch with the bonuses + module u guys want ..so in conclusion +1 for ratting ..-1 for pvp ..i give this patch +5 for the creativity ideea of the module + deploying visuals of the ship ..but -5 for the lack of pvp involvement |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:18:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Nikolai Vodkov wrote:Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much. I dont see golem applying dps better in future... do you see? I do actually. It will deliver the payload 25% faster. Not as game changing as Optimal + Falloff bonus but Golems can already do 1400 DPS with overload. Now it will be able to project that DPS further.
that 25% faster is so trivial and meaningless. DPS number will remain same. |
|

val Tartess
8's Crazy Eightz 8's Fade 2 Black
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:35:00 -
[1451] - Quote
I am not sure, if this idea has been posted already, but here I go:
Marauder are used atm in PVE only. So its lvl4 missions and sometimes incursions. As I am n incursion pilot, lets talk about marauders in incursions:
Maraduers are only seen in HQ sites in incursions. For a marauder to be usefull it has to get from one gate to another (tpph), and actually BE at spawn sites (Torp fitted) (nrf). Thats why it needs n mwd or
- MJD where you can jump TO someone/gate within 100km. eg. jump TO a gate 70km away
Otherwise, there will be no Torp fitted golems anymore!
The next point is tanking Damage. We are in a tcrc and are at the tower bash.
- Either i can still be remote repped, or I am able to tank the sites damage (which would be overpowered).
Otherwise, with the speed nerf and shield nerf, marauders will not be seen in incursions anymore.
Feel free to comment or send me ingame mails with feedback. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
208
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:37:00 -
[1452] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Xequecal wrote:I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.
The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill. No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range. In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit kind of like how its technically possible to do VGs with orcas with drones.....
Dunno but, sn't a pith a-type invuln the tank present on most shiny incursion ships? Doesn't that translate to something like 100k EHP (linked) and an effective rep of arond 8000? Even in HQ sites, the alpha isn't that significant. A bastioned marauder's linked repoutput should easily be enough, though... Unlike vindicators, you do not have a 90% web bonus.
Guess that if for incursions, it might be significant if marauders (with their mostly awesome projectio/application) were able to pick up speed, bastion up and then glide through the room :>
...
Can't see why you would pick a marauder over a pirate BS or a (beam-)legion.
PS: Give tracking / missile accuracy back to the bastion module! Their dps is great, not the best, but great. They have long range, so where is ridiculous tracking \o/ "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:11:00 -
[1453] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
I'm all up for interesting changes, and this definitely is something new, but I do have some practical concerns regarding the use of rails for Kronos in PvE situations.
1) From actual experience, I do know that rail Kronos has hard time applying DPS on Angel battleships inside 10km range without 90% webs.
2) Dunno how to link images, so here are some EFT numbers but I'm sure you guys at CCP would calculate this much ebtter and accurately
a) At full transversal: 425mm Rail Kronos vs. Machariel (at max base speed) - 4x T2 425 Rails + 3 T2 Mag Stab, Max skills, Faction Antimatter does 761 DPS on paper - at range of 10km this drops down to around 480 DPS - at range of 5Km, this drops down to around 140 DPS
b) Of course, Javelin would up the numbers, so here are Javelin numbers using same setup - about 560 DPS at 10km - about 230 DPS at 5km
As you can see, even with Javelin the damage application of Rails vs. close orbiting Angel BS is horrible. And this is vs. BS targets. Once the target size gets smaller, such as BC or Cruiser, the Rail Kronos DPS will be much less and will have to rely on drones to kill cruiser sized ships.
Of course,
1) New MJD bonus and optimal/fall off bonus will help when using blasters and using blasters for Angel rats would mitigate the issue
2) You can always snipe the ships when they are far away (as you've mentioned)
But I just wanted to ask and confirm whether this really is the actual intention of CCP to push Kronos to this direction of using Bastion + Blaster way of playing instead of using rails.
What I'm concerned is that currently rail Kronos is only viable vs. Angel missions mostly owing to 90% web, but after the change the only viable option would be to use blasters (without the web bonus).
I can live with whatever the change that occurs, but just wanted to know whether CCP has overlooked use of Rail Kronos or if this is a new direction that the ship is going to be pushed for intentionally.
Thank you for your time.
|

Zoe Israfil
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:28:00 -
[1454] - Quote
I am extremely excited about these new ships! I think they are actually quite well thought out and cool to boot!
I'd like to address the "needs moar deeps" argument; I will also ramble into pvp applications.
These ships have a major focus on projection and self-sustainability. Projection is poorly understood. I would recommend people refer to the EVE UNI wiki on turret damage on the subject as it is quite well written.
The fact that these ships will be able to shoot further and track better (or similar for missiles) means that their applied dps will be SUBSTANTIALLY higher against targets. A look at the Golem is particularly terrifying, as it receives a bonus to target painting and explosion velocity. The effect of a dual tp bastion Golem with precision missiles is something that I'm personally looking forward to very much. I understand that on paper the DPS of these beasts might appear low, but considering that under many "normal" conditions minnie pilots (like myself) are losing ~20 - 40 % of our paper dps against targets (autocannons -> falloff is dumb), I think the bonus to projection will more than make up for it.
Onto PVP: We might be witnessing the rise of a new class of anti- cruiser/battle cruiser ship class. Because of their insane projection bonuses these ships may prove to be extremely effective against smaller targets. With multiple bonuses to projection and small gang helpers (loki webbing, frigs scramming) to further increase the ability of bastions to hit they might be able to get near perfect projection on relatively small ships. PLEASE NOTE I HAVE NOT DONE THE MATH WITH ANY PRECISION AND I WOULD LOVE FOR SOMEONE TO POST NUMBERS ON HOW ACCURATE MY ABOVE STATEMENT IS!
I personally think that as they stand now they almost have more value as a pvp ship than pve. I think they will be absolutely crazy fun to fly in both pvp and pve. The idea of a "sieged" ship in highsec/missions is awesome. The ability to tank as they can is awesome. Damage application is hugely important and these guys will be kings of it. The stationary dynamic will vastly redefine the current pvp/pve landscape and will be a fantastic change.
My rose tinted glasses are on, these ships are absolutely amazing. (New to forums be gentle) |

marVLs
386
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:28:00 -
[1455] - Quote
What's the sense of keeping TP bonus on Golem when You (CCP) planning to bring new modules for missiles
srly who will use TP when he can fit tracking computer (for missiles) module? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:31:00 -
[1456] - Quote
val Tartess wrote:I am not sure, if this idea has been posted already, but here I go: Marauder are used atm in PVE only. So its lvl4 missions and sometimes incursions. As I am n incursion pilot, lets talk about marauders in incursions: Maraduers are only seen in HQ sites in incursions. For a marauder to be usefull it has to get from one gate to another ( tpph), and actually BE at spawn sites (Torp fitted) ( nrf). Thats why it needs n mwd or - MJD where you can jump TO someone/gate within 100km. eg. jump TO a gate 70km away
Otherwise, there will be no Torp fitted golems anymore!The next point is tanking Damage. We are in a tcrc and are at the tower bash. - Either i can still be remote repped, or I am able to tank the sites damage (which would be overpowered).
Otherwise, with the speed nerf and shield nerf, marauders will not be seen in incursions anymore.Feel free to comment or send me ingame mails with feedback.
So, for one you seem to only be talking about the Golem, for another no one is forcing you to use the Bastion module. Other than that the ship's stats aren't changing all that much. You can still fit and run a MWD or AB without running out of capacitor much better than many other ships, especially if you fit Energy Transfers in your spare highs and cap chain with another marauder.
Lloyd Roses wrote: Dunno but, sn't a pith a-type invuln the tank present on most shiny incursion ships? Doesn't that translate to something like 100k EHP (linked) and an effective rep of arond 8000? Even in HQ sites, the alpha isn't that significant. A bastioned marauder's linked repoutput should easily be enough, though... Unlike vindicators, you do not have a 90% web bonus.
Guess that if for incursions, it might be significant if marauders (with their mostly awesome projectio/application) were able to pick up speed, bastion up and then glide through the room :>
...
Can't see why you would pick a marauder over a pirate BS or a (beam-)legion.
PS: Give tracking / missile accuracy back to the bastion module! Their dps is great, not the best, but great. They have long range, so where is ridiculous tracking \o/
I'd hardly say it's on "most" incursion ships. Your tank tends to only be as shiny as it needs to be to be safe.
Depends what you mean by "significant alpha"
The Vindicator seems likely to lose its web bonus as well.
The most significant thing about these new Marauders is going to be their 4 utility highs which can be used for spare cap chains as well as to power things like MWDs.
A Marauder is better affected by reps because of higher base resists even without Bastion.
Your tracking comes from needing less tank in Bastion mode, meaning you can drop a tank mod or two for extra tracking or damage application mods. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:38:00 -
[1457] - Quote
marVLs wrote:What's the sense of keeping TP bonus on Golem when You (CCP) planning to bring new modules for missiles srly who will use TP when he can fit tracking computer (for missiles) module?
People who understand that having one stacking penalized module to Explosion Radius and one TP is better than two of the aforementioned modules and that if their bonus is lower than the TP the TP is going to be flat better in many situations, especially ones where you have other people who can benefit from said TP's effects.
Pookoko wrote: I'm all up for interesting changes, and this definitely is something new, but I do have some practical concerns regarding the use of rails for Kronos in PvE situations.
1) From actual experience, I do know that rail Kronos has hard time applying DPS on Angel battleships inside 10km range without 90% webs.
2) Dunno how to link images, so here are some EFT numbers but I'm sure you guys at CCP would calculate this much ebtter and accurately
a) At full transversal: 425mm Rail Kronos vs. Machariel (at max base speed) - 4x T2 425 Rails + 3 T2 Mag Stab, Max skills, Faction Antimatter does 761 DPS on paper - at range of 10km this drops down to around 480 DPS - at range of 5Km, this drops down to around 140 DPS
b) Of course, Javelin would up the numbers, so here are Javelin numbers using same setup - about 560 DPS at 10km - about 230 DPS at 5km
As you can see, even with Javelin the damage application of Rails vs. close orbiting Angel BS is horrible. And this is vs. BS targets. Once the target size gets smaller, such as BC or Cruiser, the Rail Kronos DPS will be much less and will have to rely on drones to kill cruiser sized ships.
Of course,
1) New MJD bonus and optimal/fall off bonus will help when using blasters and using blasters for Angel rats would mitigate the issue
2) You can always snipe the ships when they are far away (as you've mentioned)
But I just wanted to ask and confirm whether this really is the actual intention of CCP to push Kronos to this direction of using Bastion + Blaster way of playing instead of using rails.
What I'm concerned is that currently rail Kronos is only viable vs. Angel missions mostly owing to 90% web, but after the change the only viable option would be to use blasters (without the web bonus).
I can live with whatever the change that occurs, but just wanted to know whether CCP has overlooked use of Rail Kronos or if this is a new direction that the ship is going to be pushed for intentionally.
Thank you for your time.
Ytterbium pointed out that a Kronus with Null and Bastion can get to 60km Optimal+Falloff which hardly seems to suggest a focus on Rails exclusively. With longer effective blaster range and the relatively close ranges of Angel ship orbits I would say that standing still and blapping Angels is going to be as viable as ever.
Also, as you said for Rails you have the MJD to slide away and rain fire from a distance where tracking is not an issue. |

Nero Meridan
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:04:00 -
[1458] - Quote
I like it. Ok i don't know where and how should they be used. But still. Awesome space vessels.
And for all ignorants out there : It's Kronos. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
287
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:12:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Ytterbium pointed out that a Kronus with Null and Bastion can get to 60km Optimal+Falloff which hardly seems to suggest a focus on Rails exclusively. With longer effective blaster range and the relatively close ranges of Angel ship orbits I would say that standing still and blapping Angels is going to be as viable as ever.
Also, as you said for Rails you have the MJD to slide away and rain fire from a distance where tracking is not an issue.
Experience suggests to me that fitting blasters on a PVE battleship is rarely a good idea, even against angels.
In the situation described, a blaster ship using MJD to get away from a frigate swarm is going to put itself outside a range where it can apply damage. I think you'll find that railguns are likely to be the better option in that case.
In the situation described, you may want to stay put and use drones on the frigates while destroying the DPS ships with the blasters.
Of course if you're going to rely on drones, having a few spare would be welcome.
Does anyone know what the rationale for reducing the marauder's drone bay?
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
7044
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:14:00 -
[1460] - Quote
Can I just ask.
On dreads, when you enter siege, you lose lock on anything currently locked, will that be the case for marauders? |
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:19:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: Sry Mate, but you really don't see any advantages in lvl 4 mission running with proposed changes? The ECM immunity alone will make a lot of missions much much faster. Increased range also.
Yeah...you are right. I am used to fight guristas and their target jamming it's not something bad as long as I have some Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile. Wich I've always had just in case. 
Try sansha missions, where a single elite frig or cruiser reduces your range and tracking to 0 :). Permanently... |

Zoe Israfil
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:20:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:Can I just ask.
On dreads, when you enter siege, you lose lock on anything currently locked, will that be the case for marauders?
I personally am also VERY curious about that as well. I think you should; remote sensor boosters would then still be viable. I feel this is not in the "spirit" of these beasts. |

RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:34:00 -
[1463] - Quote
After thinking about this for somtime time..
Leave marauders as they are
But as for these mini-dreads - Rokh, Baddon, Hype & Mael - are all yet to see a T2 varient!
so people who want the mini dreads can have them & those they still love the marauders as they are can still have them too!! |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:36:00 -
[1464] - Quote
CCP need to add one of the following bonuses to these ships, there is no need to all the bonuses but this ships does lack in one area or another
1. normal T2 resistances, the arguement against this is the tanks would be insane on some of the ships when in bastion mode, however CCP need to remember these are immobile BS hulls, all it would take is 1 tracking dread on field to kill them also they cant receive remote assistance in the mode so they do need that extra resistance already on this ship to maybe free up a slot for a AAR/ASB so you can coast in and out of the mode when you have logi support and are primary
2. 25% damage bonus while bastion module is active. your in a DPS ship just like a dread, there should be a small increase to DPS while you stuck sitting still
3. Give this ships back their drone bays, but make the drones be abandoned if you MJD or enter bastion mode and they are in space |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:44:00 -
[1465] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Ytterbium pointed out that a Kronus with Null and Bastion can get to 60km Optimal+Falloff which hardly seems to suggest a focus on Rails exclusively. With longer effective blaster range and the relatively close ranges of Angel ship orbits I would say that standing still and blapping Angels is going to be as viable as ever.
Also, as you said for Rails you have the MJD to slide away and rain fire from a distance where tracking is not an issue.
Experience suggests to me that fitting blasters on a PVE battleship is rarely a good idea, even against angels. In the situation described, a blaster ship using MJD to get away from a frigate swarm is going to put itself outside a range where it can apply damage. I think you'll find that railguns are likely to be the better option in that case. In the situation described, you may want to stay put and use drones on the frigates while destroying the DPS ships with the blasters. Of course if you're going to rely on drones, having a few spare would be welcome. Does anyone know what the rationale for reducing the marauder's drone bay?
I actually fully agree that a bigger drone-bay would be appreciated, personally I think we could bump them up to 100m drone bay without hurting very much. As someone who missions in a Rokh often (possibly out of masochism since I can fly better ships for it) I can attest that a 50m3 Dronebay is rather painful.
I suspect that this is to make them more vulnerable to small ships but personally I think they may have over-done it slightly.
Regarding a Blaster Kronus I would generally avoid using the MJD except on missions where rats spawn out past 50 km and you want to close distance on them.
Generally the problem in my experience with Blasters is that some rats orbit just outside of the range where you can apply good damage, a solid range bonus fixes this rather nicely when combine with the ability to fit large numbers of tracking computers. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:50:00 -
[1466] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:CCP need to add one of the following bonuses to these ships, there is no need to all the bonuses but this ships does lack in one area or another
1. normal T2 resistances, the arguement against this is the tanks would be insane on some of the ships when in bastion mode, however CCP need to remember these are immobile BS hulls, all it would take is 1 tracking dread on field to kill them also they cant receive remote assistance in the mode so they do need that extra resistance already on this ship to maybe free up a slot for a AAR/ASB so you can coast in and out of the mode when you have logi support and are primary
2. 25% damage bonus while bastion module is active. your in a DPS ship just like a dread, there should be a small increase to DPS while you stuck sitting still
3. Give this ships back their drone bays, but make the drones be abandoned if you MJD or enter bastion mode and they are in space
Normal T2 resists would be over-powered under any circumstances, whether you include the Bastion Module or not. These ships would be able to fit entirely mobile buffer tanks on the order of 200-300k EHP without ever touching Bastion and fit neuts in the highs for extra nastiness, never mind the effective tank with logistics support, there are very good reasons no battleship has full T2 resists.
More damage gets them into a DPS race with the soon to be rebalanced Pirate Battleships which seem slated to be very powerful and expensive Attack Battlecruisers.
So, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that MJDing would disconnect your drones anyway or at least put them well outside of control range. As for Bastion mode, this seems entirely arbitrary and would make Bastion very poor for PvE or PvP since you have no option to engage a small fast target if he stays out of web range (oh and you're then forced to fit webs). |

Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:13:00 -
[1467] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Just another quick update.
- We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIEGäó SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.
- We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.
Adjusting OP to reflect this. EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change. May I ask what's the real problem with the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill? Seems like an ideal candidate for the job, and personally I can't see any reason why looking for any other ones. Also, that'd be a nice steping stone for upcoming dread pilots, especially for those ratters (both high and nullsec) who later want to go for dreads.
Also, we'll we have both tech1 and tech2 versions of this module? And I think meta-variants would also be quite welcomed. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:40:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Magic Crisp wrote: May I ask what's the real problem with the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill? Seems like an ideal candidate for the job, and personally I can't see any reason why looking for any other ones. Also, that'd be a nice steping stone for upcoming dread pilots, especially for those ratters (both high and nullsec) who later want to go for dreads.
Also, we'll we have both tech1 and tech2 versions of this module? And I think meta-variants would also be quite welcomed.
A few problems: One, it requires a long train on-map than the proposed skill does off-map. Two, it will likely cause confusion about whether or not the module requires fuel to operate. Three, it's meant to buff and unlock a single largely unrelated module (the only thing they have in common is the basics of the siege mechanic, nothing else).
I would think the skill requirements along with the stats clearly indicate it's going to be a single module, not an entire meta-line. Meta versions would likely be difficult to balance without simply adding pointless modules to the game. It's not like there are meta siege modules beyond T1 and T2 and even then the T2 Siege Module didn't exist for years. In this case there doesn't seem to be a balanced way to add a T2 variant which makes the idea of one pointless. |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
855
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:43:00 -
[1469] - Quote
marVLs wrote:What's the sense of keeping TP bonus on Golem when You (CCP) planning to bring new modules for missiles srly who will use TP when he can fit tracking computer (for missiles) module?
Presumably for the same reasons that people choose to fit a painter over a TC when using turrets - ignoring the multiple modules and stacking argument, that is.
The skilled painter gives a bigger bonus to tracking than a tracking-scripted TC (37.5% (or 40% for a 20 mill RF one) and 30%), but ofc the TC has the option of the range script. If a missile guidance computer follows this path then it'll give less to precision than a painter, but have an option for a script to increase missile velocity or flight time. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:46:00 -
[1470] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Normal T2 resists would be over-powered under any circumstances, whether you include the Bastion Module or not. These ships would be able to fit entirely mobile buffer tanks on the order of 200-300k EHP without ever touching Bastion and fit neuts in the highs for extra nastiness, never mind the effective tank with logistics support, there are very good reasons no battleship has full T2 resists.
More damage gets them into a DPS race with the soon to be rebalanced Pirate Battleships which seem slated to be very powerful and expensive Attack Battlecruisers.
Fair Point, in that case i would say they need about 20% more resistance to make it so they can cope, so maybe a 4% bonus per level buff on the ship |
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1402
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:51:00 -
[1471] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Daniel Plain " in missions anything more than a flight of lights (and maybe a flight of salvage drones) is absolutely irrelevant in terms of dps."
So anything more than 5 lights in any mission any where is doing it wrong? How magnanimous of you to let us know how wrong we have been all these years, using more than 5 lights. Man, what were we thinking? I get 190 dps from 3 sentries or 3 heavy drones but my fitting window must be broke cause thats nearly double the DPS I get with 5 lights? yes and it's also less than 10% of your total paper dps, which in exchange pin you down to one place (or in the case of heavies travel so slow that you often kill their target before they arrive) and get switched on by almost all mission rats (whereas lights are only targeted by elite frigates and elite cruisers). absolutely irrelevant may have been an overstatement, so i will rephrase it: in missions, anything more than a flight of light drones is not worth the hassle unless you are in an actual drone ship or have terrible gun/missile dps (because of bad skills or bad fit).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:51:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:marVLs wrote:What's the sense of keeping TP bonus on Golem when You (CCP) planning to bring new modules for missiles srly who will use TP when he can fit tracking computer (for missiles) module? Presumably for the same reasons that people choose to fit a painter over a TC when using turrets - ignoring the multiple modules and stacking argument, that is. The skilled painter gives a bigger bonus to tracking than a tracking-scripted TC (37.5% (or 40% for a 20 mill RF one) and 30%), but ofc the TC has the option of the range script. If a missile guidance computer follows this path then it'll give less to precision than a painter, but have an option for a script to increase missile velocity or flight time.
Except that the missile damage formula is a bit different than the turret formula. Given how missiles work I'd more expect a script-able module that boosts explosion radius and velocity with options to buff one or the other more, then a low-slot that buffs flight time and velocity. The trading of range for damage application ends up not making a lot of sense for missiles but trading between damage application type does since you can "max out" one half of the damage application of missiles without touching the other. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:59:00 -
[1473] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Normal T2 resists would be over-powered under any circumstances, whether you include the Bastion Module or not. These ships would be able to fit entirely mobile buffer tanks on the order of 200-300k EHP without ever touching Bastion and fit neuts in the highs for extra nastiness, never mind the effective tank with logistics support, there are very good reasons no battleship has full T2 resists.
More damage gets them into a DPS race with the soon to be rebalanced Pirate Battleships which seem slated to be very powerful and expensive Attack Battlecruisers.
Fair Point, in that case i would say they need about 20% more resistance to make it so they can cope, so maybe a 4% bonus per level buff on the ship
It would be easier for CCP to simply adjust their base resists and probably more balanced. As it is though they still get ~60% resists, just added to two categories instead of spread across all four and the Bastion Module gives them better than T2 level base resists.
The resist bonus on the module is probably CCP's answer to the inherent balancing issue with T2 tanked battleships. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
288
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:59:00 -
[1474] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:After thinking about this for somtime time..
Leave marauders as they are
But as for these mini-dreads - Rokh, Baddon, Hype & Mael - are all yet to see a T2 varient!
so people who want the mini dreads can have them & those they still love the marauders as they are can still have them too!!
T2 hyperion... heh. I can imagine a youtube channel dedicated to the 20:1 gatecamp fights...
Hyp is my favourite ship, but I don't think even I would argue for a T2 monster hyperion in the game 
But I agree with your sentiment.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:00:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Pookoko wrote: ..... I'm all up for interesting changes, and this definitely is something new, but I do have some practical concerns regarding the use of rails for Kronos in PvE situations.
1) From actual experience, I do know that rail Kronos has hard time applying DPS on Angel battleships inside 10km range without 90% webs. .....
let me clarify i'm against the proposed changes but here i had to say something....
if you even get into 10km of angle bs with the proposed changes you didn't understand the intended use nor how to play eve missions with a mjd bs.
why not bring some vailid complains about those proposed changes??? like an immobile target with selfsustained tank only wont last longer OR wont apply more dmg than a mobile BS that can have logi support in pvp? |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:02:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote:I think it's good first step in rebalancing those ships, I'd suggest to give missile boats an explosion velocity bonus.
But the really reall really important thing is to make the bastion mode only work in low/null sec, don't make highsec carebearing even more attractive than it already is. This could be a good thing to lure people in lower sec Do you even know what you're talking about? Marauders are fine for any content highsec can throw at them tank-wise. If you can't tank it in a marauder, you're doing it wrong. In incursions using these would even be super-bad since you can't get RR anymore. The defensive bonuses of the bastion mode are lost on highsec players, simply because it's overkill. Maybe you can fit a 4th weapon upgrade or something, to squeeze out an extra 50-100dps or so, but that's DPS lost anyway because of the removal of drone bandwith.
Sorry, have been away for a few days, but now to answer you... not true. If you can boost the tank with 1 module in the highslots then you can free other mid/lowslots for better damage application or even dps. And if your case would be true then the HS bears wouldn't mind not being able to use it, right?
I just think it would make sense to make a mod like this only available in the lower security regions to lure people to go there. Give people reasons to move out of their little empire space and if it's just to unleash the full power of their marauders! I don't see why this would be a big issue, it works for many other mods, too - and especially as a stepping stone between BS - Cap-sized ships it'd make sense. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
288
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:08:00 -
[1477] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote: Sorry, have been away for a few days, but now to answer you... not true. If you can boost the tank with 1 module in the highslots then you can free other mid/lowslots for better damage application or even dps. And if your case would be true then the HS bears wouldn't mind not being able to use it, right?
I just think it would make sense to make a mod like this only available in the lower security regions to lure people to go there. Give people reasons to move out of their little empire space and if it's just to unleash the full power of their marauders! I don't see why this would be a big issue, it works for many other mods, too - and especially as a stepping stone between BS - Cap-sized ships it'd make sense.
Are you saying that the bastion module makes you feel safer about lowsec pve?
I think most people would see the bastion module as a liability in lowsec, in the same way as triage mode on carriers. Being forced to stay still is a huge liability.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
372
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:11:00 -
[1478] - Quote
The new fitting on the Vargur, with these bonuses, and the fact it's already one of the sexiest looking ships in the game, makes me unreasonably excited.
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:30:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:RTSAvalanche wrote:After thinking about this for somtime time..
Leave marauders as they are
But as for these mini-dreads - Rokh, Baddon, Hype & Mael - are all yet to see a T2 varient!
so people who want the mini dreads can have them & those they still love the marauders as they are can still have them too!! T2 hyperion... heh. I can imagine a youtube channel dedicated to the 20:1 gatecamp fights... Hyp is my favourite ship, but I don't think even I would argue for a T2 monster hyperion in the game  But I agree with your sentiment.
That would be a interesting Solution, but then we should ditch Tier3 BS as whole.
2 Tech1 BS 3 Tech2 BS 8 Navy BS 5 Pirate BS |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1183
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:31:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Overall the idea looks cool, it's the kind of tool interesting to use (eventually) to kill POCOs/POS
Eventually some dude sniping in siege mode (60 sec he better know what he's doing or a cloaky will kick his ass)
More interesting: siege mode in guns optimal against larger targets
But, main issues are not fixed: Sensor strght and T1 resistances. Just change how your modules works and give a smaller bonus to tank, eventually HP instead of resistances but make it so base resistances are T2 or there's not really anything interesting to do with this ship except very tiny niche things like kill POS in high sec, POCOs in low/null but then what?
Then you are left with 50% of your ship abilities unable to be used 99% of the time.
We already have supers titans for 0.1% of login/playing characters we actually don't need more tools for this awesome (not) game playing. Not being rude "copain" but if the first idea is cool it's the global vision that imho is not matching at all skill training/benefits players can expect from this ship. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:33:00 -
[1481] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Try thinking of it like this. You don't need to fit a massive tank, you can strip modules that are otherwise required for a mission like a Shield Boost Amp for a Golem off and replace them with damage application mods like extra Target Painters, missile damage app mods if we ever get them, cap mods, or prop mods.
The extra range can make Torp fits more viable, especially combine with the Target Painter bonus and freed up slots.
E-War is fairly common is missions and sites as well, and while it's not crippling it cuts down on completion times and is very frustrating. The Bastion mode E-War immunity lets you get around this and speeds up your mission or site times. It also gets rid of a frequent complaint with Marauders without giving them a flat buff for PvP.
The Defender Missiles point is very valid and I'd like to see something like a Missile HP buff added either to the Golem or to Bastion to make up for it since that seems to really hinder the ship at least with Cruise-Missile setups.
Overall though if you want to stick to your CNR that's your choice, I think if the ship is completely too good to resist then CCP have over-buffed it.
I will probably use the CNR over the Golem, because the CNR does every important role better than the Golem (atleast for now). The CNR has better damage (3 sentries + room for a DDA), similar application (projection isn't an issue to begin with), higher speed and more buffer (yeah, buffer is important to me as anti-gank protection).
Yeah, I could reduce the tank, but for what? Even more TP's to juggle? 
With the CNR, E-War isn't an issue either. It has enough base sensor strength to counter even the most nastiest Guristas-Assault type missions (last one I did got 1 Jamcycle in total). Other forms of E-War aren't a problem either.
Torps aren't really a choice for lv 4's either, as their range is simply to short (even with bastion). Why should I use torps over Fury CM's for a marginal short-ranged dmg increase, but significant dmg loss for higher ranges?
Ofcourse, this might change if we get new missile-modules for mid-slots, but yeah - those aren't clear yet. Ofcourse Rise announced something, but I doubt it's going to be dmg application-mods. I would rather expect pure projection-mods, and having to fit those to make the bastion viable while the CNR can do everything at once (while still having very competitive dmg even in a CM-CNR <-> Torp-Golem comparision thanks to the sentries!) doesn't make the Golem any more viable.
Ofcourse it could be more valid if there are some additional changes, but it's kinda hard to judge the whole idea without the whole picture.
|

Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:58:00 -
[1482] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Magic Crisp wrote: May I ask what's the real problem with the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill? Seems like an ideal candidate for the job, and personally I can't see any reason why looking for any other ones. Also, that'd be a nice steping stone for upcoming dread pilots, especially for those ratters (both high and nullsec) who later want to go for dreads.
Also, we'll we have both tech1 and tech2 versions of this module? And I think meta-variants would also be quite welcomed.
A few problems: One, it requires a long train on-map than the proposed skill does off-map. Two, it will likely cause confusion about whether or not the module requires fuel to operate. Three, it's meant to buff and unlock a single largely unrelated module (the only thing they have in common is the basics of the siege mechanic, nothing else).
May I ask why? Jump portals and covert jump portals coexists the very same way, and they require the very same skill both, to operate. Oh, and that particular skill reduces strontium usage, which the covert jump portal generator doesn't have. I guess it's not that hard. Also, it's logical. If you have no usage, then however much you're reducing it, it'll still be none, quite logical in my opinion. 0*1 = 0*0.5 = 0. etc.
|

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:58:00 -
[1483] - Quote
Not going to dig through 74 pages to find if it was mentioned already.
I dont see why should I prefer Marauder over Carrier for nullsec ratting. Carriers have better tank, more DPS, better projection, dont have to deploy and cost only a tad more. So what's the point? |

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:59:00 -
[1484] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:The new fitting on the Vargur, with these bonuses, and the fact it's already one of the sexiest looking ships in the game, makes me unreasonably excited.
With the PW upgrade, could vargur fit 1200mm? Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:39:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Not going to dig through 74 pages to find if it was mentioned already.
I dont see why should I prefer Marauder over Carrier for nullsec ratting. Carriers have better tank, more DPS, better projection, dont have to deploy and cost only a tad more. So what's the point?
No one force you to switch, but one advantage would be the ability to Jump into Highsec. ;-) |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
351
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:40:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Not going to dig through 74 pages to find if it was mentioned already.
I dont see why should I prefer Marauder over Carrier for nullsec ratting. Carriers have better tank, more DPS, better projection, dont have to deploy and cost only a tad more. So what's the point?
Ratting in a Carrier...  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Polarized.
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:55:00 -
[1487] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
So why are you reducing the ships capacity to use drones?
If you are going to limit to bandwidth to dictate what size drones can be used, there is no need to reduce the drone bay. It is a curious decision when you look at the Kronos... It can use 5 medium drones but can also only carry 5 med drones. Once is loses one is has no ability to replace it withouts restocking at a station.
The Kronos should either have a bay big enought for 10 med drones or the bandwidth should be reduced to 25... Personally, I'd prefer the former. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:56:00 -
[1488] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:The new fitting on the Vargur, with these bonuses, and the fact it's already one of the sexiest looking ships in the game, makes me unreasonably excited.
With the PW upgrade, could vargur fit 1200mm?
It could fit TII 1400's, a projectile TII rig, a MJD and a TII X-L SB without even a single fitting mod/rig.  |

GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
372
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:57:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:The new fitting on the Vargur, with these bonuses, and the fact it's already one of the sexiest looking ships in the game, makes me unreasonably excited.
With the PW upgrade, could vargur fit 1200mm?
1200 IIs easily with plenty of grid to spare (10890/16125 grid used). 1400 IIs would fit (12870/16125) but the rest of the grid would be tight and I'd see fitting mods probably necessary for the rest of the fit.
I'm much more amused by the fact that you can cram in a rack of 800 IIs and three heavy neut/nos with grid to spare though.
e;fb - see above
Skia Aumer wrote:Not going to dig through 74 pages to find if it was mentioned already.
I dont see why should I prefer Marauder over Carrier for nullsec ratting. Carriers have better tank, more DPS, better projection, dont have to deploy and cost only a tad more. So what's the point?
please continue to rat in a carrier, it's the best ratting ship ever |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
351
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:57:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote: So why are you reducing the ships capacity to use drones?
If you are going to limit to bandwidth to dictate what size drones can be used, there is no need to reduce the drone bay. It is a curious decision when you look at the Kronos... It can use 5 medium drones but can also only carry 5 med drones. Once is loses one is has no ability to replace it withouts restocking at a station.
The Kronos should either have a bay big enought for 10 med drones or the bandwidth should be reduced to 25... Personally, I'd prefer the former.
Launching something bigger than light drones on NPC mission frigs is a waste anyway. Two flights of lights (haha, what a poet I am) should be enough, to kill the frigs and have some spares, right? There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:09:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Not going to dig through 74 pages to find if it was mentioned already.
I dont see why should I prefer Marauder over Carrier for nullsec ratting. Carriers have better tank, more DPS, better projection, dont have to deploy and cost only a tad more. So what's the point? running locator agents now, deploying BLOBS |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3308
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:30:00 -
[1492] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Are you saying that the bastion module makes you feel safer about lowsec pve?
I think most people would see the bastion module as a liability in lowsec, in the same way as triage mode on carriers. Being forced to stay still is a huge liability.
60 seconds+MJD wind-up time, which is only available to the attacker in the rather unlikely worst case scenario (marauder enters bastion at the same time attacker enters system, marauder is in dscan range from the entry point), is not an awfully long time to get scrams on the marauder. I don't see it happening reliably if the marauder is deep inside a plex.
Statistically you'll enter a system with the marauder already x seconds into the bastion cycle, possibly off dscan (lets say 10 seconds for warp), doing KB intel to avoid a trap, dropping probes, two scan passes (10 seconds), warp to marauder (10 seconds), lock and survive. That's +35 seconds and those numbers are quite optimistic.
You can't point it before it exits bastion. My point being that 60 seconds might feel long for the marauder pilot when local spikes at the unfortunate moment of immediately after pushing the Bosstion button, but generally the attackers are actually in a hurry if they want to catch it before it MJDs away to safety and trolls you in local.
Practically speaking, if I'd be hunting for solo PVE marauders after this change, I'd want an alpha- Nado squad with Arazu/Proteus to scram it down and not die in flames, or LR scrams+ Curse or Legion (Geddon?) to neut it, and a number of HACs that can stay under it's guns to actually kill it- I'd bet every marauder that gets scrammed before MJD will bastion and fight back like an animal backed into a corner. It's not like he has much choices. If it's a shield marauder, only thing you can do about it is to alpha thru the reps or endure the hurt until it runs out of juice, armor ones you can at least neut.
This means a rather pricey and coordinated small gang equal or exceeding the ISK value of the marauder- which sounds like balance in my books. And yeah, at least half of the marauders you'll see will be baits :)
tl;dr- I've soloed PVE marauders before, which was awesome, but it's not going to happen anymore. If a ship becomes unsoloable, it is arguably more safer outside hisec. I'd go even as far as claiming that bastion marauders are not easy targets for a typical kitchen sink roaming small gang.
Oh and this was obviously concerning die-hard forever-alone marauderists, nothing prevents bears flying them in pairs or for example with a new CS, raising the bar even higher. It's not something that for example a handful of Taloses can deal with.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3309
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:37:00 -
[1493] - Quote
As what comes to the rebalancing itself, I'd very much prefer a mid/low instead of another utility high (new NOSes don't help marauders much/at all and heavy neuts aren't such a great idea with active tank), they really should have a bit more drone capability, and I'd also like to see their mineral requirements toned down a bit to put them clearly under pirate BS prices.
Alternatively, give them one more effective turret and keep slots as they are.
And while you're at it, **** on-grid probing, multiple ASBs and fix the damn EWAR drones.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:40:00 -
[1494] - Quote
What Marauders can join Fleets too?! *sarcasm* I really like the Post above me. |

Varion Dalarel
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:44:00 -
[1495] - Quote
Hello,
First of all: Eve Online is a sandbox game where pvp plays a big part. There were and there are pvp and non pvp ships in this game, like freighters, mining barges, industrials, salvaging ships, capital industrial ships...
Every single ship has its own role: A mining barge is used to collect ore from roids, an industrial or an capital industrial (Orca) is ussed to haul this ore and freighters will transport lots of this stuff to a refining station or trading hub. All those ships have there own role and this is no pvp role. Now i come to the point for what marauders were designed originally. They were ment to be pve gods for running level 4 missions. After all the changes to pirate and faction bs hulls they also need some love of course but why changing the role? Eve has ships which arent pvp ships, the marauders are carebaer ships for people who like running missions and don't want to pvp. This game is a sandbox where everyone can do what HE wants to do which makes this game so great so let there be niche ships in this game.
There is also an unused t1 bs hull which could be used for a third T2 bs with a pvp role. From my point of view its better to design the marauders as pve ships and not as 50% pvp and 50% pve ship. The MJD bonus does not work well with the "marauding" role where the capsuler is using the tractorbeams on wrecks to get every valuable stuff from the enemy. If you jump 100km how should you use tractorbeams on large wrecks? Well you could salvage the time in bastion mode but the fact those ships become much more slow boats will **** all players up which are doing missions where gates are not directly at the beacon or are 100km away. Some missions have gates around 40km away from warp in point which makes the MJD very unusefull. Also high dps ships with up to 70km range with short range ammo which can jump every ~60 seconds 100km may be a bit over in pvp.
So my suggestion is: let marauders be the carebaership with a 100% role for solo missions, plexes or ratting and create a 100% pvp T2 hull with the third unused t1 bs hull for all other players who are pvp players. Imho this would be a win for carebaers and pvp players cause everyone gets his own cookie.
Marauders: Role Bonus: 100% bonus to main weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 100% bonus to Afterburner speed (instead of 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay )
Bastion Module [new]:
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
- Increases shield and armor repair amount by 50% (decreased from 100%)
- Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 15% (decreaded from 25%)
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 15% (decreaded from 25%)
- Increases turret damage by 5% and missile damage by 10% (added)
- Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
- When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
- When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is reduced by 85%, mass is increased by a factor of 5, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
- Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
- Gives resistances equal to 1 T2 Invul field and a bit more then a true sanshas ENAM => you can fit less tank and activate the module when high ammounts of damage are incomming and use the free slot for utility. DCU + Bastion module will give the ship 90% hull resistance, maybe there should be a stacking penaltie on hull resistances (because 90% is imho a bit over) but not on armor and shields. - 100% with local tank buff are also a bit over from my point of view. Change it to 50% bonus to shield and armor repair amount and nerf cap regeneration a bit less. - reduce rangebonus from 25% to 15% and also look at falloff bonus of the kronos. Even with a 15% bonus you have ~65km blaster optimal+falloff. Missile velocity also changed to 15%. - There should be a small bonus to damage also cause the CNR got another launcher slot which makes the torp damage almost equal to the marauder which had 8 effective launcher slots already. So my suggestion is give a lets say 10% bonus to missiles too and maybe same for turret damage. The falloff and optimal bonus is already a passive damage increase for turrets so i am not sure if they need another damage buff but missiles get absolutely no damage bonus from higher velocity. - Cycle time and EW immunity like in the original module - Reduced ship velocity by 85% and increased mass factor by 4-5 while in bastion mode, cannit warp etc. With this new concept the ships still have a huge range, but to compensate the cutted range they are allowed to move but with extreme reduced speed cause the Bastion mode "uses" almost all energy the ship uses for his engine. This will result in 20-24 m/s speed while in bastion mode and 90-100 m/s with afterburner (meta4) activated in bastion mode. With republic fleet afterburner and deactivated bastion module they can burn with 610 to 736 m/s to a point and go into bastion mode. This concept is imo more flexible then the flat 100 km MJD range.
Please keep in mind this is just a suggestion and attributes can be changed again. Think about giving the marauders the 100% pve role and create a new pvp-role T2 battleship with the unused t1 battleship hull later. Both carebaers and pvp players would get a cookie this way and we may see other nice T2 hulls.
|

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:45:00 -
[1496] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote: Sorry, have been away for a few days, but now to answer you... not true. If you can boost the tank with 1 module in the highslots then you can free other mid/lowslots for better damage application or even dps. And if your case would be true then the HS bears wouldn't mind not being able to use it, right?
I just think it would make sense to make a mod like this only available in the lower security regions to lure people to go there. Give people reasons to move out of their little empire space and if it's just to unleash the full power of their marauders! I don't see why this would be a big issue, it works for many other mods, too - and especially as a stepping stone between BS - Cap-sized ships it'd make sense.
Are you saying that the bastion module makes you feel safer about lowsec pve? I think most people would see the bastion module as a liability in lowsec, in the same way as triage mode on carriers. Being forced to stay still is a huge liability.
Nothing makes me feel safe except a covops cloak ;)
I'm not arguing about the general purpose of the mod itself but the area where people could use it - in LW/0.0 you do you have sites who would be awesome to use with this bastion mod but I'd just like to see an incentive for going to unsafer places in general, not another boost for HS carebearing. And as people pointed out, boosting the tank of these ships for missions isnt really necessary to make these ships work. |

David Kir
Tailender
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 12:49:00 -
[1497] - Quote
C4 sites, get ready.
You gon' get Vargurified. |

Gort Thud
Wandering Spartans
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:18:00 -
[1498] - Quote
I fail to see what these new ship designs really have to do with the spirit of the Marauder - they seem to be essentially a new ship class under an old name.
Marauders the very name itself symbolises speed, agility, self sufficient hit and run operations deep behind enemy lines.
I would ask CCP to give us a true Marauder plus develop this mini-Dread concept more fully with the help of the community perhaps even using a different tier battleship hull as the starting point. The Bastion module idea is a decent addition to the Eve technology base but tacking it onto the Marauder class is a mistake in my opinion.
Gort |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:36:00 -
[1499] - Quote
Gort Thud wrote:I fail to see what these new ship designs really have to do with the spirit of the Marauder - they seem to be essentially a new ship class under an old name.
Marauders the very name itself symbolises speed, agility, self sufficient hit and run operations deep behind enemy lines.
I would ask CCP to give us a true Marauder plus develop this mini-Dread concept more fully with the help of the community perhaps even using a different tier battleship hull as the starting point. The Bastion module idea is a decent addition to the Eve technology base but tacking it onto the Marauder class is a mistake in my opinion.
Gort
Marauders are People who get into wardriven villages to burn their houses and steal the treasures befor anyone can react and defend theirselfs "on the fly". In Germany we call it "Brandschatzen" or maybe you know it as pillage.
And yeah the Name really implies fast and hard (cruel) Monsters which the current Form wont conform.
In other Words a new Name would be a nice deal. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
289
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:42:00 -
[1500] - Quote
David Kir wrote:C4 sites, get ready.
You gon' get Vargurified.
Despite my reservations about the bastion module, it will at least increase the number of solo-vargurs on my killboard, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining.
I'll even be able to probe you out and warp to you in a combat sig before you can drop bastion mode. yay \o/
 A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |
|

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3311
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:03:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:David Kir wrote:C4 sites, get ready.
You gon' get Vargurified. Despite my reservations about the bastion module, it will at least increase the number of solo-vargurs on my killboard, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining. I'll even be able to probe you out and warp to you in a combat sig before you can drop bastion mode. yay \o/ 
Ok, so now you've warped to that C4 site in your ship x. Vargur is in Bastion, two remaining Sleepless Safeguards and the Vargur start locking you up. You are pointed, webbed and neuted by all of them and start receiving about 2000 points of damage per second. Sleeper battleships are too far for you to hit, and you can't even scratch the tank of the Vargur.
Your move next- deaggro, pray to last for one minute without cap so you can eject to avoid SP loss, or just wait for the inevitable explosion?
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Barry Niven
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:16:00 -
[1502] - Quote
It's a good concept but I don't think it will be used as it is currently described.
Why would I give up one minute of mobility and remote reps for a modest range extension and immunity to ewar? There may be special snowflake situations where this is helpful but given the expense of Marauders I don't think you will see this used very often.
|

David Kir
Tailender
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:21:00 -
[1503] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:David Kir wrote:C4 sites, get ready.
You gon' get Vargurified. Despite my reservations about the bastion module, it will at least increase the number of solo-vargurs on my killboard, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining. I'll even be able to probe you out and warp to you in a combat sig before you can drop bastion mode. yay \o/ 
Good luck. |

Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
51
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:33:00 -
[1504] - Quote
Why are multiple ASBs even still a thing? They note how broken it is by limiting AARs to one per ship and they arent near as powerful with the cap usage. :/ |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:37:00 -
[1505] - Quote
Any new blue response on this matter yet? |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1487
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:40:00 -
[1506] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:Any new blue response on this matter yet? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=search&devbadge=1&gmbadge=1 Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
289
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:51:00 -
[1507] - Quote
Roime wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:David Kir wrote:C4 sites, get ready.
You gon' get Vargurified. Despite my reservations about the bastion module, it will at least increase the number of solo-vargurs on my killboard, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining. I'll even be able to probe you out and warp to you in a combat sig before you can drop bastion mode. yay \o/  Ok, so now you've warped to that C4 site in your ship x. Vargur is in Bastion, two remaining Sleepless Safeguards and the Vargur start locking you up. You are pointed, webbed and neuted by all of them and start receiving about 2000 points of damage per second. Sleeper battleships are too far for you to hit, and you can't even scratch the tank of the Vargur. Your move next- deaggro, pray to last for one minute without cap so you can eject to avoid SP loss, or just wait for the inevitable explosion?
Not quite. along with me will be a devoter, a couple of dps ships, some neuts and a couple of logis. You've done wormholes before, right?
Your move, big man
 A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3311
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:05:00 -
[1508] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Not quite. along with me will be a devoter, a couple of dps ships, some neuts and a couple of logis. You've done wormholes before, right? Your move, big man 
I got the impression you meant actually soloing the Vargur since you spoke in singular. Which would have been worth gloating. But yeah, you are correct, you need a small fleet to take down a single PVE ship. Which is dramatically different from the current iteration of marauders.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
289
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:11:00 -
[1509] - Quote
Roime wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Not quite. along with me will be a devoter, a couple of dps ships, some neuts and a couple of logis. You've done wormholes before, right? Your move, big man  I got the impression you meant actually soloing the Vargur since you spoke in singular. Which would have been worth gloating. But yeah, you are correct, you need a small fleet to take down a single PVE ship. Which is dramatically different from the current iteration of marauders.
No, I never fly solo in wormholes - and neither will you more than once in a vargur.
I really wish I could say that thse changes will make marauders viable for solo pve in dangerous space - but they won't.
They need to be re-thought IMHO
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3311
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:29:00 -
[1510] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
No, I never fly solo in wormholes - and neither will you more than once in a vargur.
I really wish I could say that thse changes will make marauders viable for solo pve in dangerous space - but they won't.
They need to be re-thought IMHO
Well I do fly solo wherever the **** I feel like flying, and my point is that stuff likethis isn't going to happen once these changes go live.
They will certainly be more viable for the actual PVE part than most other ships, high dps reduces exposure, and really- no ship is safe from ganks in w-space, solo or not.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:40:00 -
[1511] - Quote
Roime wrote: They will certainly be more viable for the actual PVE part than most other ships, high dps reduces exposure, and really- no ship is safe from ganks in w-space, solo or not.
I completely agree with you.
The biggest reason not to fly expensive (any) ships in solo pve in hostile space is cost.
What if the high cost gave you a chance of evading a gank?
It would be worth the money, wouldn't it?
I understand the logic of reducing exposure through faster termination of NPCs, but it's important to remember that every time you get ganked it's very likely that the other guys' scout followed you in to the anomaly or sig that you're running. He watched you warp off and warped right after you.
ganks don't happen by happy chance.
We work hard to make them happen.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3312
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:55:00 -
[1512] - Quote
I don't think that's how balance works. No amount of ISK should make anyone safe from dedicated group of skilled hunters. Like you said, we work hard to make ganks happen. And I argue that the suggested marauders are harder to gank than current ones, as far as I can see, impossible to solo gank.
Isn't this an improvement?
You'll be able to solo PVE harder sites, giving you higher returns for investment. People have used blinged T3s in w-space, marauders aren't more expensive, but clear sites faster. I've personally never approved of T3s in w-space PVE, but I can actually see it worthwhile to drop MJD Kronoses on a C4 site with the normal precautions. Surely you are under serious risk when in bosstion mode, but you'll also make more ISK. Risk vs reward etc.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:01:00 -
[1513] - Quote
Roime wrote:I don't think that's how balance works. No amount of ISK should make anyone safe from dedicated group of skilled hunters. Like you said, we work hard to make ganks happen. And I argue that the suggested marauders are harder to gank than current ones, as far as I can see, impossible to solo gank.
Isn't this an improvement?
You'll be able to solo PVE harder sites, giving you higher returns for investment. People have used blinged T3s in w-space, marauders aren't more expensive, but clear sites faster. I've personally never approved of T3s in w-space PVE, but I can actually see it worthwhile to drop MJD Kronoses on a C4 site with the normal precautions. Surely you are under serious risk when in bosstion mode, but you'll also make more ISK. Risk vs reward etc.
Sure I agree with risk/reward. I am not saying a marauder should get away with it every time but I think skilful marauder pilots should have a reasonable chance to do what the name suggests - maraud. Get in, do damage, loot and pillage, and (because we don't want an OP PVP marauder) evade capture.
I'm actually on the side of the PVE guys here.
I just don't think the bastion will give you what you need or really want.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
405
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:11:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Blue tag would be nice this little thread grow up some. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:14:00 -
[1515] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Overall the idea looks cool, it's the kind of tool interesting to use (eventually) to kill POCOs/POS
Eventually some dude sniping in siege mode (60 sec he better know what he's doing or a cloaky will kick his ass)
More interesting: siege mode in guns optimal against larger targets
But, main issues are not fixed: Sensor strght and T1 resistances. Just change how your modules works and give a smaller bonus to tank, eventually HP instead of resistances but make it so base resistances are T2 or there's not really anything interesting to do with this ship except very tiny niche things like kill POS in high sec, POCOs in low/null but then what?
Then you are left with 50% of your ship abilities unable to be used 99% of the time.
We already have supers titans for 0.1% of login/playing characters we actually don't need more tools for this awesome (not) game playing. Not being rude "copain" but if the first idea is cool it's the global vision that imho is not matching at all skill training/benefits players can expect from this ship.
Edit: let me add to "not matching at all skill training/benefits players can expect from this ship" for pvp other thing than structures because you can be sure some large alliances will require their members to use those just for that.
I think you missed the bit from Ytterbium at the start where this is only supposed to have niche roles in PvP. It is, after all a PvE focused ship at the core of things, and adding a super-tanked Battleship to PvP would likely break quite a few things if there were no restrictions. The Vargur for a start would be able to comfortably fit ~200k DPS omni-buffer rather easily and I don't even want to think what the Paladin would be able to do with a full set of Slave implants.
People seem to be focused on "POS killing" for some weird reason even though there are already multi-person setups that do it better than this does by a large margin.
Magic Crisp wrote:May I ask why? Jump portals and covert jump portals coexists the very same way, and they require the very same skill both, to operate. Oh, and that particular skill reduces strontium usage, which the covert jump portal generator doesn't have. I guess it's not that hard. Also, it's logical. If you have no usage, then however much you're reducing it, it'll still be none, quite logical in my opinion. 0*1 = 0*0.5 = 0. etc.
Because this already came up in discussion with my friends and we actually had to look up that the Jump Portal Generation skill didn't actually do anything for Black Ops Battleships beyond let them make the portal . Those at least use fuel but I wonder how many Black-Ops pilots have that skill trained higher than 1 thinking it did something for them?
Personally I wouldn't complain if they made a new skill for Black Ops portals and just gave everyone level 1 who has any level in Jump Portal Generation now that you mention it.
Also, as I said, TWR is a longer train on-map than Ytterbium's proposed science skill to 4 is on-map.
Skia Aumer wrote:Not going to dig through 74 pages to find if it was mentioned already.
I dont see why should I prefer Marauder over Carrier for nullsec ratting. Carriers have better tank, more DPS, better projection, dont have to deploy and cost only a tad more. So what's the point?
Faster align time and lock time on the Marauder and the Carrier is more skill intensive. Also if you need to move one system over you don't need to dig up an alt or ping your logistics people :|
Gort Thud wrote:I fail to see what these new ship designs really have to do with the spirit of the Marauder - they seem to be essentially a new ship class under an old name.
Marauders the very name itself symbolises speed, agility, self sufficient hit and run operations deep behind enemy lines.
I would ask CCP to give us a true Marauder plus develop this mini-Dread concept more fully with the help of the community perhaps even using a different tier battleship hull as the starting point. The Bastion module idea is a decent addition to the Eve technology base but tacking it onto the Marauder class is a mistake in my opinion.
Gort
This is entirely based on the definition of "Marauder". What you are actually describing is Black-Ops Battleships. If you really have that much of an issue with the definition of a ship name then ask CCP to re-name the ship class. Marauders have never been particularly fast, just fairly tanky, and they certainly don't operate behind enemy lines, they barely operate anywhere near *any* lines except the ones separating wallet ticks. 
Roime wrote:As what comes to the rebalancing itself, I'd very much prefer a mid/low instead of another utility high (new NOSes don't help marauders much/at all and heavy neuts aren't such a great idea with active tank), they really should have a bit more drone capability, and I'd also like to see their mineral requirements toned down a bit to put them clearly under pirate BS prices.
Evidence suggests that with more supply and demand they'll be below Pirate Battleship prices anyway. Most of the movement in Marauders is through buy orders anyway and even for the Kronos those are at around 800 million where as the Vindicator has buy-orders set at or above 1 billion. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:19:00 -
[1516] - Quote
Roime wrote: Ok, so now you've warped to that C4 site in your ship x. Vargur is in Bastion, two remaining Sleepless Safeguards and the Vargur start locking you up. You are pointed, webbed and neuted by all of them and start receiving about 2000 points of damage per second. Sleeper battleships are too far for you to hit, and you can't even scratch the tank of the Vargur.
Your move next- deaggro, pray to last for one minute without cap so you can eject to avoid SP loss, or just wait for the inevitable explosion?

The funny bits are where you assume the Sleepers are going to instantly aggro the new guy and where you assume the new-guy from a WH corp showed up 100% alone...
Barry Niven wrote:It's a good concept but I don't think it will be used as it is currently described.
Why would I give up one minute of mobility and remote reps for a modest range extension and immunity to ewar? There may be special snowflake situations where this is helpful but given the expense of Marauders I don't think you will see this used very often.
A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.
Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:28:00 -
[1517] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.
Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites.
The spike in Kronos prices are almost entirely the work of 2 people who are manipulating the market on the speculation and from all accounts already made a tidy amount from it. |
|

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2400

|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:29:00 -
[1518] - Quote
I've removed some off topic posts and posts with personal attacks. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:45:00 -
[1519] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.
Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites.
The spike in Kronos prices are almost entirely the work of 2 people who are manipulating the market on the speculation and from all accounts already made a tidy amount from it.
I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
124
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:56:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I don't think i have ever used the stasis bonus on the paladin, frigs hardly ever get that close so the optimal range bonus makes more sense. as for the kronos, i prefer the fall-off bonus but the web bonus is still useful. Not having the web bonus is a major kick in the teeth, because that translates to a 400% increase in target velocity. If they want to give the Kronos a 400% bonus to blaster tracking to compensate I'm down with that, but I very much doubt it would happen.... Also there is a ridiculous assertion in this thread that the 90% web bonus was overpowered: Large blasters are an oddity - sub 10km optimal on a very slow platform, fundamentally only really works if you can pin down any targets straying in range to near stationary. Overpowered? not really, because you simply kite said slow, lumbering platform outside of 13km. I should also point out, from the perspective of someone who extensively flew blasterthrons back in the day of 90% webs (2004-2008), that it was still perfectly viable back then to get in under the guns in frigate sized platforms (heck if you got close enough in a cruiser you could still mess up tracking sufficiently), the only recourse the blasterthron pilot had was to 'tickle' the MWD to attempt to pull a little bit of range. In the days of MWD-killing scrams, boosted afterburners, and tracking disrupters bolted into spare mid slots, 90% webs on a lumbering vulnerable Battleship platform are in no way overpowered. P.s back in the day the Kronos had 99% webs.... This was also back before a ton of changes to speed and speed stacking. These days if you try to get under the guns on a 90% web bonused ship you end up as an expanding cloud of plasma. Also if you actually take a look at the stats on most Gallente ships they've all gotten increased speed and maneuverability to better be able to apply Blaster damage. This went along with the Hybrid Weapons changes back in ~2010 and has only been reinforced by the ship re-balancing. But then that is factually incorrect, though expected as you are a post-speed changes player (no offense).
Prior to the 2008 changes you could easily get close to 1200 m/sec in a blasterthron, while the same fit (# of plates and trimarks) will just barely reach 1000 m/sec with the latest changes.
Add to that back then you could still pull range using the MWD (scramblers did not kill MWD's back then), and that afterburners were hopeless (tiny speed bonus), then no, 90% webs on a lumbering, large turret platform today are in no way overpowered and removing them is not justified.
In terms of your 'cloud of plasma' statement - either kite it out of range (easy as it is a slow lumbering platform), or fit appropriately to increase your chances (afterburner + tracking disruption). To put a specific number on it: the 50% hit chance on a 40m frigate at 5km from an Ion II blaster fit Megathron occurs at 41.5 m/sec. An AB fit frigate can go twice that fast under a 90% web. An AB frigate with a tracking disrupter has it even easier.
90% webs have always been a crucial element to large blaster platforms, which by definition are a solo or at best, very small gang platform. It's a real shame the dev's from 2008 to now don't seem to 'get it' as IGÇÖm pretty sure the 'old school crowdGÇÖ, the likes of TomB et al, did perfectly understand it....
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
|

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:04:00 -
[1521] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:[quote=Rroff] I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread.
Not sure if they'd want me banding their names about but one posts on here quite a bit so might confirm - talking people who bid 10s of bn on AT prize ships, etc. so they aren't short of ISK by a long shot.
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
124
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:08:00 -
[1522] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Rroff wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.
Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites.
The spike in Kronos prices are almost entirely the work of 2 people who are manipulating the market on the speculation and from all accounts already made a tidy amount from it. I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread. I gave it some consideration only a month or two ago, but decided that actually, looking at the current state or Marauders and where they could likely go with re-balancing, probably wasn't worth it.
Good luck to the individuals trying to turn some isk on it though.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

George Fox
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:11:00 -
[1523] - Quote
Asayanami Dei wrote:Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.
I agree. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:14:00 -
[1524] - Quote
George Fox wrote:Asayanami Dei wrote:Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.
I agree. The tractor bonus is useful for solo PVE pilots who have paid for a ship that maximises PVE income, including salvage.
It is very useful for these guys, who are the target consumers of this ship.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:28:00 -
[1525] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:George Fox wrote:Asayanami Dei wrote:Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.
I agree. The tractor bonus is useful for solo PVE pilots who have paid for a ship that maximises PVE income, including salvage. It is very useful for these guys, who are the target consumers of this ship. If anything CCP needs to increase the tractor bonuses given that the ship are being given a PVE nerf by the base speed being reduced. A PVE pilot would need to slow boat longer to get in range of wrecks to tractor them in.
|

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:46:00 -
[1526] - Quote
As a paladin pilot(on another char), conceptually i like the idea. However since this is suppose to be a "Dread-lite" or "Dread with training wheels", why not actually do that instead of giving the full remote lockout like siege. Rather then Bastion completely blocking remote reps give it a reduction. Go ahead and block out remote EW/capchains/tracking but leave some ability to be remote rep'd.
so the Bastion module would look like this.
BASTION MODULE
- Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
- Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
- Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
- Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
- Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
- When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW cannot receive any remote EW/Tracking assist in any way
- Remote Reps received [shield, armor, hull] are reduced by 60%(number is adjustable i just picked 60% cause it was more then 50% :P ) (remote reps wouldn't receive the repair increase from above obviously)
- When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
- Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
- Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
- Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
- Skill requirements: High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5
This would make it so you could theoretically fit it as local reps only or you could fit it as mega buffer tank and hope the reduced remote reps are enough to hold you and keep you from burning, or being blapped. Plus this would effectively end the complaints from incursioners as they could still remote rep the the things while using the new ability without mjd around the incursion site.
Another thing I am disappointed about with the paladin was the drone bay/bandwith getting the baseball bat to the face, seriously that cut is excessive and even napkining it out knowing how terrible the lock time on my paladin already is I can't seen this as an applied dps buff in the slightest over all. Leave the drone bays where they were at give us the choice on what to carry rather then just locking us to 1 flight of lights, and 1 flight of salvaging drones.
Increase the sensor strength to at least the t1 level. 12 points is pathetic when the t1 has 20. Even the BLOPs is only 3 less then it's T1 counter part. Most of the t2 ships have 1-3 points less or more then their T1 hull, with cruiser and below being more likely to have higher sensor str.
Personally i am not so much unhappy with the removal of 90% webs, it would be nice to have range boosted webs instead but for the Siege-lite mechanic/mjd capability i can tolerate the lack of 90% webs.
And finally the 100% tractor bonus lets keep tractoring for flavor but make it the bonus the same as a noctis 60% per level. (could be even amazing and add-in a bonus bonus to salvage drone use if you really felt generious)
I'm definitely not comfortable using the current paladin in pvp, and the version proposed by the changed in the OP i wouldn't fly either but a version that was a little more forgiving i could see flying once in a blue moon in pvp with the right people.
Frankly you taking a clearly pve boat and trying to turn it into a pvp boat while still trying to leave some pve ability for the people who use it that way.. This doesn't fit with the clearly defined role iteration |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:51:00 -
[1527] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Not sure if they'd want me banding their names about but one posts on here quite a bit so might confirm - talking people who bid 10s of bn on AT prize ships, etc. so they aren't short of ISK by a long shot.
I'm certainly not claiming it's not happening, in fact it would be rather hard for the price of anything to spike like that without some market manipulation going on, I was just curious if you had a source for it.
Regardless though I somewhat doubt your friends would be making significant profits without the buzz over these changes.
Gabriel Karade wrote:But then that is factually incorrect, though expected as you are a post-speed changes player (no offense).
Prior to the 2008 changes you could easily get close to 1200 m/sec in a blasterthron, while the same fit (# of plates and trimarks) will just barely reach 1000 m/sec with the latest changes.
Add to that back then you could still pull range using the MWD (scramblers did not kill MWD's back then), and that afterburners were hopeless (tiny speed bonus), then no, 90% webs on a lumbering, large turret platform today are in no way overpowered and removing them is not justified.
In terms of your 'cloud of plasma' statement - either kite it out of range (easy as it is a slow lumbering platform), or fit appropriately to increase your chances (afterburner + tracking disruption). To put a specific number on it: the 50% hit chance on a 40m frigate at 5km from an Ion II blaster fit Megathron occurs at 41.5 m/sec. An AB fit frigate can go twice that fast under a 90% web. An AB frigate with a tracking disrupter has it even easier.
90% webs have always been a crucial element to large blaster platforms, which by definition are a solo or at best, very small gang platform. It's a real shame the dev's from 2008 to now don't seem to 'get it' as IGÇÖm pretty sure the 'old school crowdGÇÖ, the likes of TomB et al, did perfectly understand it....
Your argument here seems a touch disjointed.
For a start a Megathron may have been able to go faster back then, most things could and I'd be rather surprised if 1200m/s was the upper limit of speed on even an armor tanked mega with the right combo of effects. However comparing the post-nerf Megathron right now to other battleships it performs quite well.
A quick comparison of the Megathron hulls to Raven, Apocalypse, and Tempest hulls shows the Megathron based hulls with the lowest inertia modifier of any of them, beating out all three of the Minmattar ships. In velocity the Megahthron Navy Issue ties with the Tempest Fleet Issue and Vargur at 130m/s, followed by the Tempest at 127 m/s, then the Vindicator at 126, the Navy Raven at 123 and the Megathron at 122.
This is a very powerful combination of speed and agility and puts blaster boats in a very good position compared to where they were before these changes and, I would argue, even before the pre-nano nerf days.
Now, the bit where I kind of completely lose you is where you assert that it actually used to be *harder* to hold someone with webs back when you couldn't turn off their MWD and you sort of lose me when you say this justifies 90% webs when it is functionally impossible to escape them since the person webbing you can turn off your MWD or web you down to the point where you can't feasibly get away from them with an Afterburner with only a single module and a short-point.
If anything this would make them even stronger now than they used to be and this is born out by the popularity of hulls with these bonuses over comparable hulls without even when those other hulls have significant advantages and lack the drawbacks of the hull with the web bonus.
Throw the mechanics of "Dread-blapping" into the mix and you have a very solid case for removing these bonuses and replacing them with something else.
You make a decent argument with your frigate example, however this can be countered by two points. One, with a Federation Navy web the frigate can be grabbed on approach out at 14 km, which means it will be going ~100m/s by the time it hits 10km. Two, any of these ships can easily fit a second web which means that, for example in the case of a Vindicator with Neutron Blasters loaded with Void (horrible tracking) the Vindi is still able to apply a solid 1000 DPS aat 3000 meters without factoring in drones or that the Vindicator, even without a propulsion module, is now faster than the frigate with only one web on it. At two webs you're basically shooting at a small cargo container with guns on it.
As for your completely erroneous statement about 90% webs and Large Blasters, only two blaster ships have been able to fit them for the last 5 years. One is the undisputed DPS king of sub-caps and the other is a ship that, according to its other stats, should have zero PvP relevance at all and probably wouldn't if it didn't also have a 90% web bonus.
Plus both of these ships can still fit two webs without their bonus and get roughly the same effect as a single 90% web but for a more reasonable trade-off and without the hilariously broken situation of 2 90% webs on the same ship.
Don't get me wrong, I love when 90% webs are on my side, but I really fail to see a justification for their continued existence in the game when they are so ridiculously powerful. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:05:00 -
[1528] - Quote
It sure is fine to have OP Stats like the 90% web bonus, but thats the Past and now is now. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2581

|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:07:00 -
[1529] - Quote
Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.
Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is 
KRONOMNOMNOS:
High: 4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beams II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module
Med: 1x Large Micro Jump Drive 1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800) 1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)
Low: 1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer II 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1x Tracking Enhancer II
Rigs: 1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I 1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter.
With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything.
I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea.
How to wreck things in missions?
Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.
If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.
Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.
Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.
- Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
- Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
- Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
- Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
- Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
- Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.
So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grant you the last.
As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post).
Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos. |
|

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:13:00 -
[1530] - Quote
WOW! Those numbers are ridiculous Ytterbium. I can't wait!! Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:19:00 -
[1531] - Quote
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. |

Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
769
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:23:00 -
[1532] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is KRONOMNOMNOS:High:4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beams II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module Med:1x Large Micro Jump Drive 1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800) 1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts) Low:1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs:1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I 1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter. With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything. I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea. How to wreck things in missions?Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them. Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course. Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.
- Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
- Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
- Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
- Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
- Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
- Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.
So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.
As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post). Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos. But would you consider a scan res bonus? Like 20-25%? While in bastion mode? Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759
Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:24:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Have you all considered a script for Bastion that would remove/reduce the resist bonus in exchange for allowing remote repair? That might help the ships in Incursions or PvP. Alternatively it might be better just to buff the base hulls and take the difference out of Bastion for slightly more PvP effectiveness.
That said I think people may be underestimating the effectiveness of 4 utility highs on a Battleship, especially with the NOS changes.
Sure they get jammed easily but ECM needs a balance pass and it doesn't exactly show up in every fight (I think people would go nuts if it did). |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2582

|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:25:00 -
[1534] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.
You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls  |
|

Dave Stark
3505
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:30:00 -
[1535] - Quote
so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.
won't waste my time training for a marauder then. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
210
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:30:00 -
[1536] - Quote
Think the curcial thing here is that, while you can use hightracking SR weapon platforms, your time-on-target is pretty much 100%. You can solo tank a vanguard. And it reads as if a vargur could tank the extravaganza bonus room with a gist c-type large, while having three gyros, two TEs, two TCs and a sebo running... Which could push your RF Fusionrange towards 100km falloff, your neutron blasters with null even to wreck things at 80-90km.
Paladin even has almost every mission within optimal using Xray with tachs...
Good thing soloing a vanguard isn't the best ISK/hour, so that extreme tanking potential might be wasted anywhere outside of high-end wormholes. Over there, you got Blood Union to keep things under control. Economy is safe. "When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:38:00 -
[1537] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls 
after thinking about it, i see how perhaps this is even better - even faster - in L4s solo than pirate due to application.....
But then again i cheat. And by cheat i mean i dualbox missions - i used to run a vargur and a nightmare so that i could apply my damage effectively at multiple ranges. If there was ewar only 1 of my dudes was shut down, if i needed tank i would capchain them and self rep. If i needed to move a distance, i would mwd while capchained. So if you have 1 freind, or if you have 1 alt, then all of the advantages of the new marauder no longer matter, and you lose mobility or midslots when dualproping. (what i mean, is that 2 pirate hulls would be better than 2 marauders, while 1 marauder will be better than 1 pirate hull)
Ok, maybe it is (possibly) better in L4s solo and i shouldnt be complaining, but.... i can still do better with pirate / oldmarauder
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:38:00 -
[1538] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.
won't waste my time training for a marauder then.
Because no one ever dropped a damage mod for more tracking in Incursions?
Never mind the good base resists, four utility mids and solid slot layout.
The speed is something of an issue but if you can cap-chain with another Marauder you can probably perma-run anything you like up to and including a MWD as well as save the entire fleet if a Logi gets jammed at the wrong time. Maybe you do a little less DPS but that's a fine tradeoff if you tank a little better and don't have to worry about neuts ever. |

Dave Stark
3506
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:40:00 -
[1539] - Quote
Shadalana wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km...
how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
110
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:40:00 -
[1540] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null Ooooh... You sir know how to make Gallente pilot wet. |
|

Dave Stark
3506
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:45:00 -
[1541] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.
won't waste my time training for a marauder then. Because no one ever dropped a damage mod for more tracking in Incursions? Never mind the good base resists, four utility mids and solid slot layout. The speed is something of an issue but if you can cap-chain with another Marauder you can probably perma-run anything you like up to and including a MWD as well as save the entire fleet if a Logi gets jammed at the wrong time. Maybe you do a little less DPS but that's a fine tradeoff if you tank a little better and don't have to worry about neuts ever.
you mean the same utility slots that a vindiator has more of, and gets bonuses to?
if a logi gets jammed then i suggest people start learning how to shoot tagged targets. doing less dps isn't fine, it just slows down every site and makes every one else in the group earn less isk. at best it's selfish and at worst it's stupid. |

marVLs
387
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:50:00 -
[1542] - Quote
But why just why those tank bonuses in bastion? For what they are?
- LVL4? they don't need more tank
- Incursions? ... rly need to explain? no one will use them, especially without web bonuses, and drone nerf
- PVP? for what? no RReps, they will die from alpha, or don't be so useful beacause of "no move" mode with this DPS
I think the best thing is to give marauders T2 resists, boost more scan res, but change bastion so it gives nothing to tank, but boost DPS, ranges, tracking, expl radius etc. (ofcourse RReps will not be banned in that mode)
Here You go, more usefull in missions etc, useful in Incursions, and in PVP, now it's worth to bring over 1Bil ship T2 into PVP. OP? Why? they can still die from alpha (small buffer) and can't move in bastion.
I bet everyone here would prefer that, otherwise still Pirate BS's and even Navy BS's will perform better... everywhere...
CCP Ytterbium You forget that doing over 9000! missions over and over again is boring, so players want to do them with minimal effort, why should i jump in pockets, get reduction in damage because of falloff etc. when i can go with RNI that will aplly more damage and better and in more relaxing way that Marauders. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:53:00 -
[1543] - Quote
marVLs wrote:But why just why those tank bonuses in bastion? For what they are?
- LVL4? they don't need more tank
- Incursions? ... rly need to explain? no one will use them, especially without web bonuses, and drone nerf
- PVP? for what? no RReps, they will die from alpha, or don't be so useful beacause of "no move" mode with this DPS
I think the best thing is to give marauders T2 resists, boost more scan res, but change bastion so it gives nothing to tank, but boost DPS, ranges, tracking, expl radius etc. (ofcourse RReps will not be banned in that mode) Here You go, more usefull in missions etc, useful in Incursions, and in PVP, now it's worth to bring over 1Bil ship T2 into PVP. OP? Why? they can still die from alpha (small buffer) and can't move in bastion. I bet everyone here would prefer that, otherwise still Pirate BS's and even Navy BS's will perform better... everywhere... CCP Ytterbium You forget that in doing over 9000! missions over and over again is boring, so players want to do them with minimal effort, why should i jump in pockets, get reduction in damage because of falloff etc. when i can go with RNI that will aplly more damage and better and in more relaxing way that Marauders.
i agree but... "we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode" |

Dave Stark
3510
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:54:00 -
[1544] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
this is probably the only bonus that's worth the drawbacks. otherwise the module is either a death sentence, or the job it's doing will simply be done better by other ships.
unless you're doing l4 missions, which the marauders are already very good at. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:56:00 -
[1545] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Battle Cube wrote:"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode" this is probably the only bonus that's worth the drawbacks. otherwise the module is either a death sentence, or the job it's doing will simply be done better by other ships. unless you're doing l4 missions, which the marauders are already very good at.
no argument here. |

Galdrak
Interplanetary Trade Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:58:00 -
[1546] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is KRONOMNOMNOS:High:4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beams II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module Med:1x Large Micro Jump Drive 1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800) 1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts) Low:1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs:1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I 1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter. With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything. I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea. How to wreck things in missions?Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them. Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course. Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.
- Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
- Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
- Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
- Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
- Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
- Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.
So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.
As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
[/url].
glad to see testing feedback try a vg site in an incursion if you will, |

Shadalana
Krautz WH Exploration and Production Cerberus Unleashed
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:00:00 -
[1547] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Shadalana wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km... how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k.
a kronos does 20% mehr dps mit faction ammo, has 25% more range with faction and does this damag instant...and of course no defender...
so i guess: golem at 37km: 750 dps kronos: ~700 dps instant...and the ability to shoot at 45km, much more worth...
|

Dave Stark
3514
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:08:00 -
[1548] - Quote
excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps? |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:10:00 -
[1549] - Quote
Galdrak wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:[list] Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE. glad to see testing feedback try a vg site in an incursion if you will,
i would also like to see how a paladin fairs in an incursion site, considering the current armor vs shield imbalance in incursions already. |

marVLs
387
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:10:00 -
[1550] - Quote
Because torps are bad, everyone know that besides CCP they desperately need range buff (at least 50% but not to velo, buff flight time so they wont be OP), besides Rage could use small radius reduction and exp speed buff. And that number of torpedoes in bay... rly need a lot more |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1258
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:10:00 -
[1551] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
what if you guys made a script then?
one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase...
that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:14:00 -
[1552] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is  ............. .................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post). Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos. Fair enough as such given that this is a PVE post how much longer did it take for you to tractor and salvage the rooms with the various ships. Given that the ships are being made less mobile via base speed nerf and the Bastion conversion mechanics. Would you say finishing a room with loot and salvage included was faster using the proposed Marauders or slower? |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:15:00 -
[1553] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
what if you guys made a script then? one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase... that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both.
that would be a good way to make it more similar to a mini-dread concept and would make it viable in incursions, even with the RR problem if the possible dps was enough, then players would find a way. A lot like how the vindi's applied dps due to range is absurd, but its very popular in incursions. |

Shadalana
Krautz WH Exploration and Production Cerberus Unleashed
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:20:00 -
[1554] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps?
defender...common weapon of npcs...
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1258
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:31:00 -
[1555] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:MeBiatch wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
what if you guys made a script then? one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase... that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both. that would be a good way to make it more similar to a mini-dread concept and would make it viable in incursions, even with the RR problem if the possible dps was enough, then players would find a way. (yay high risk high reward) A lot like how the vindi's applied dps due to range is absurd, but its very popular in incursions.
this is what i am thinking
so script one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
Script two: Increases all large turret damage by 25% Increases all large missile damage by 25% Decreases all large turret tracking by 50% Decreases all large missile explosion velocity and increase to explosion radius by 25%
without a script: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% Increases all large turret damage by 12.5% Increases all large missile damage by 12.5% Decreases all large turret tracking by 25% Decreases all large missile explosion velocity and increase to explosion radius by 12.5% There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Stephen Goto
Spanked and Straddled
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:32:00 -
[1556] - Quote
This will be great for taking down a d*ck stick in low sec with a million and one ECM mods.
And as far as dealing with frigs in PvE, micro jump drive, duh. Add distance and snipe away. They disrupt, not scram, so you're still good.
And please, please give it some other bonus besides tractor beam, its outdated by the noctis, and so far not such a big fan base for them... Just saying.
Also do Gang links in Bastion mode still work?
(Maybe redesign the marauders for optimal cool factor on transformation? Petty, but still curious) |

Dave Stark
3516
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:38:00 -
[1557] - Quote
Shadalana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps? defender...common weapon of npcs...
i see, i don't do missions. just incursions where i've never seen an npc use defender missiles, then again i've never seen one get shot with missiles. |

Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:43:00 -
[1558] - Quote
GeeBee wrote:Greetings CCP.
While it seems you're willing to change the mauraders I do not believe you're willing to buff them enough to be useful for the cost or skill requirements that they have for any purpose other than highsec mission running.
I've got a shiny kronos that once in a while (years now) i'll hop in and go run L4s blitzing away.
It's setup with an omnitank, 425s. and Afterburner and primarily does sniper kiting tactics, It's a fun setup and is very survivable.
The baston module to me has little or no appeal for this setup, it already has plenty of range and tank and its own movement helps maintain tracking. the MJD bonus could be handy, but i really dont see myself fitting one over the afterburner, which would take away a cap recharger or a tracking computer.
So my *wishlist* for my long unused shiny ship of olde would be
1) don't nerf the speed on the hull 2) give them some better base cap regen 3) don't nerf my drone bay 4) give them proper sensor strengths 5) you're adding a high slot for the bastion module, an argument could be made that a midslot should be added for the MJD as this seems to be a staple for how it is intended to operate.
The bastion module..... I'm really not digging this thing, its only purpose is mission running, if you were to pvp with it its like a dreadnaught with 1/12 the ehp, 1/10th the damage, 1/4 the tank for 1/2 the price, its going to get splattered by any formidable crew of subcaps.
1) remove the weapons timer - this things already going to have issues in pvp, this is insult to injury. 2) add some kind of a damage bonus, i'd like to see maybe 1200-1300 dps from 425s on a kronos when using this module, prolly about 2k dps when using blasters, too lazy to do the math for the percentages, at least im not asking for crazyness like 3-4k like others. 3) add some kind of energy neut protection, this thing pretty much has every form of defense covered except that, add a base 25% reflect when the bastion module is activated maybe? I mean this is basically a 2 trick pony if you're going to sit still with your 1bil base hull cost shiny thing using the godmode defensive module of the century it should at least have all the obvious vulnerabilities plugged.
I'm just going to quote this... again... CCP, because you really need to make sure you read it. Especially GeeBee's 'wishlist'. __________________ Chief Executive Officer Instar Heavy Industries |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:52:00 -
[1559] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.
Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared.
Many thanks for this. The ability to function while fitting a MWD and MJD is welcome and satisfies my concerns over mobility.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:03:00 -
[1560] - Quote
People who think Paladin and Kronos needs a web bonus to run lvl 4's are just terrible at shooting red dots, sorry.
Any other bonus as far as lvl 4's go is more useful. Optimal range on the Paladin is esp good.
Kronos seems abit odd though, should atleast get 100m3 bay with 75m3 bandwidth to do good'ish dps with rails at 40-50km mark again. and no, you can't really fit more damage mods as 4 damage mods + 1 T2 RoF rig is as far as it can push it's dps, and projection when you can MWD at 1100ms isn't really a problem, overall it's possible Kronos will run lvl 4's slower(apart from Blockade) and some gurista missions. |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1259
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:07:00 -
[1561] - Quote
also i think marauders should get a role bonus to remove the sensor resolution penalty on the Target spectrum breaker mod. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
344
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:12:00 -
[1562] - Quote
just want to point out that feedback is also telling you that this is a bad idea, gj selectively hearing.
and when it hits tq and its a bad idea,
i aint sayin i told you so, but .. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Zoe Israfil
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:15:00 -
[1563] - Quote
I would like to reiterate my strong support of these new ships. I'd also like to address a few recurring topics.
Drones: Many people are saying that their reduced drone bay (not bandwidth) is going to be harsh. I'm assuming that they are referring resupplying in hostile space (not your sov 0.0 or maybe even npc sov). I personally don't see the major issue with this as you have a fairly large cargo bay. While this would not solve the issue if you are in space you can not dock in, I find it rather unlikely you will have one of these ships in undockable space without carrier support.
Damage: Please read EVE UNI's turret damage wiki article before continuing. I keep seeing people talk about how these monsters are going to lose damage and be over tanked. I think that as they are they appear extremely balanced and well thought out. Why? Projection and stationary.
Projection is a complicated issue, and is poorly understood by many within the EVE community. Because it is hidden, and because the formula is balls complicated, many people pass it off as something that can be ignored and decide to focus on raw paper dps instead. This is a horrible, horrible mistake. I am a minnie pilot and have spent a considerable amount of time reading about projection, and while I don't proclaim to be an expert, I can say with conviction that projection bonuses are vastly superior to damage bonuses in my opinion (on battleships). Just as we have EHP/ raw HP we have Applied DPS/ raw DPS.
It is fairly well understood that at "max falloff" (optimal plus falloff) you are doing 50% of paper dps. As a GENERALIZATION this scales almost linearly throughout falloff (so at half of falloff you are getting -25% of paper dps). What is often not accounted for is the SAME APPLIES TO TRACKING. This means that the target is moving at half of your max targeting you are also getting another -25% to applied damage. How often as pilots are you orbiting a target at ~50% of max falloff? For me it's pretty often. Under these "normal" conditions we can expect almost a 50% reduction in paper dps. The bonuses proposed on these new ships are absolutely amazing in my opinion as they help to mitigate such a loss.
Tank: While many people are concerned about the ridiculous tanks that will be fielded by these guys, I'd just like to challenge everyone to sit still in their next 7/10 - 9/10. Don't move, just tank. You don't even have to shoot anything. Speed/sig tanking may not be the primary form of tanking on battleships by a huge margin, but I assure you it has a Significant impact.
Stationary: I don't really have the space to address this in this post, as this is a huge and fantastic change. I will suffice to say that this will have a huge impact on pve/pvp doctrines and will reshape the current way of thinking. I think this is one of the most fantastic changes to happen since I've been playing. I completely support these awesome ships and think they will be a great addition. Please feel free to challenge anything I'm proposing, as I definitely feel strongly about these ships and would like to be involved in the community that may ultimately shape them. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:17:00 -
[1564] - Quote
I'm on board with it, however,if my npoc can out dps a paladin ill have reservations about dropping over twice the isk. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

James Sunder
572 CORP
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:20:00 -
[1565] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. What suggested changes did you use exactly?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:KRONOMNOMNOS:
High: 4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beams II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module
Med: 1x Large Micro Jump Drive 1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800) 1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)
Low: 1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1x Tracking Enhancer II
Rigs: 1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I 1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Are we supposed to use this same setup or a similar one every time we fly a Kronos?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter. Let's not try to be funny...
CCP Ytterbium wrote:How to wreck things in missions?
Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.
If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.
Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course. No need for a class on how you/ccp would like Marauders to be piloted. If i have to keep using a MWD along with the MJD I am going to need one more mid slot. I think if most had to choose they would take MWD over MJD. However if i could right-click on the MJD and type in a distance like warp to, orbit or keep at that is between 0 and 100km the mod would be great.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post). Thank you for giving us info on what we already expected. New Marauders/w Bastion or Pirate Faction BS. What would you rather fly for PVE/PVP after your excitement over this Bastion mod wears off. Also when making threads in 'Features & Ideas' about this type of thing why no just lock it afterword so no one can post? CCP very rarely implements things the community suggests...
|

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
358
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:24:00 -
[1566] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE. This part concerns me, as it indicates that shield tanking is still far superior to armour tanking. Even after the changes you are making. Since you are over-sizing your rep module, yet are still able to make it cap stable & even with the 15% armour buff coming it's still most likely more cap efficient than armour thanks to boost amps also. |

Mephrista
Dark Angel's Legion Nite's Reign
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:26:00 -
[1567] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:just want to point out that feedback is also telling you that this is a bad idea, gj selectively hearing.
and when it hits tq and its a bad idea,
i aint sayin i told you so, but ..
Exactly the same thing I'm seeing. He's ignoring all the feedback telling him "No, bad dev... go back in your cage." and still trudging along and patting himself on the back as if it's a good idea.
He seems to be one of those morons who does what he wants no matter how much he screws over someone else and in my opinion is just flat out immaturity. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:36:00 -
[1568] - Quote
Mephrista wrote:just flat out immaturity. personal slander...pot ....kettle If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:43:00 -
[1569] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Mephrista wrote:just flat out immaturity. personal slander...pot ....kettle
He didn't exactly put it very tactfully but so far it seems Ytterbium is hell bent on making a ship thats specialised in running blockade and worlds collide extremely quickly and of little use for anything else (other than some niche roles) ignoring any feedback that isn't agreeing with that goal. |

Grunnax Aurelius
The Horny Heron's
199
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:45:00 -
[1570] - Quote
Shadalana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Shadalana wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km... how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k. a kronos does 20% mehr dps mit faction ammo, has 25% more range with faction and does this damag instant...and of course no defender... so i guess: golem at 37km: 750 dps kronos: ~700 dps instant...and the ability to shoot at 45km, much more worth...
But does your Kronos have Capless DPS and Tank? Wait.... let me check..... lets see..... oh.... NO YOU CANT!!!
Therefore Golem is > Kronos Marauder: 1 Subsystem to Modulate the Role they Fulfil: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=271219 |
|

Dave Stark
3520
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:47:00 -
[1571] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Shadalana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Shadalana wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km... how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k. a kronos does 20% mehr dps mit faction ammo, has 25% more range with faction and does this damag instant...and of course no defender... so i guess: golem at 37km: 750 dps kronos: ~700 dps instant...and the ability to shoot at 45km, much more worth... But does your Kronos have Capless DPS and Tank? Wait.... let me check..... lets see..... oh.... NO YOU CANT!!! Therefore Golem is > Kronos
and anything not firing defender missiles is taking 1k dps from the golem, unlike the kronos' limp wristed damage due to not being in optimal range. |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2007
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:51:00 -
[1572] - Quote
I still think the tractor beams and bonus need to go. Put those high slots somewhere else more useful, like mids and lows. Or just remove them altogether and give us some better capacitor.
Why did they nerf recharge anyways? Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:56:00 -
[1573] - Quote
Zoe Israfil wrote:I would like to reiterate my strong support of these new ships. I'd also like to address a few recurring topics.
Drones: Many people are saying that their reduced drone bay (not bandwidth) is going to be harsh. I'm assuming that they are referring resupplying in hostile space (not your sov 0.0 or maybe even npc sov). I personally don't see the major issue with this as you have a fairly large cargo bay. While this would not solve the issue if you are in space you can not dock in, I find it rather unlikely you will have one of these ships in undockable space without carrier support.
Damage: Please read EVE UNI's turret damage wiki article before continuing. I keep seeing people talk about how these monsters are going to lose damage and be over tanked. I think that as they are they appear extremely balanced and well thought out. Why? Projection and stationary.
Projection is a complicated issue, and is poorly understood by many within the EVE community. Because it is hidden, and because the formula is balls complicated, many people pass it off as something that can be ignored and decide to focus on raw paper dps instead. This is a horrible, horrible mistake. I am a minnie pilot and have spent a considerable amount of time reading about projection, and while I don't proclaim to be an expert, I can say with conviction that projection bonuses are vastly superior to damage bonuses in my opinion (on battleships). Just as we have EHP/ raw HP we have Applied DPS/ raw DPS.
It is fairly well understood that at "max falloff" (optimal plus falloff) you are doing 50% of paper dps. As a GENERALIZATION this scales almost linearly throughout falloff (so at half of falloff you are getting -25% of paper dps). What is often not accounted for is the SAME APPLIES TO TRACKING. This means that the target is moving at half of your max tracking you are also getting another -25% to applied damage. How often as pilots are you orbiting a target at ~50% of max falloff? For me it's pretty often. Under these "normal" conditions we can expect almost a 50% reduction in paper dps. The bonuses proposed on these new ships are absolutely amazing in my opinion as they help to mitigate such a loss.
Tank: While many people are concerned about the ridiculous tanks that will be fielded by these guys, I'd just like to challenge everyone to sit still in their next 7/10 - 9/10. Don't move, just tank. You don't even have to shoot anything. Speed/sig tanking may not be the primary form of tanking on battleships by a huge margin, but I assure you it has a Significant impact.
Stationary: I don't really have the space to address this in this post, as this is a huge and fantastic change. I will suffice to say that this will have a huge impact on pve/pvp doctrines and will reshape the current way of thinking. I think this is one of the most fantastic changes to happen since I've been playing. I completely support these awesome ships and think they will be a great addition. Please feel free to challenge anything I'm proposing, as I definitely feel strongly about these ships and would like to be involved in the community that may ultimately shape them.
drones: resupply of drones is irritating but yeah not really detrimental damage: higher 'paper' dps means the higher dps you CAN apply if conditions are right. You may be able to apply more damage with better application via projection, tracking, but in best case scenarios you will do less dps.
now for stationary... here you have 2 options: 1 - MOVE but have less projection - through moving you can get into the range where you can project and do more dps - even more dps
1- stay still.... but project further. It might be easier to apply damage this way, but your damage cap is lower. And as soon as you move you are either going to be slow, or you are going to MJD out of your effective range, OR you could move quickly with mwd, but then you are dualproping and gimping tracking/opt/tank, or why not just use a ship with just an mwd, and move into range where you have higher possible dps?
Both are.... viable. But many prefer the ability to output more dps |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:57:00 -
[1574] - Quote
People are complaining about the wrong thing here. The main issue with these ships is in the areas where the bastion module are actually really good (lowsec L5 and nullsec) it just leaves you too vulnerable.
If you are left alone in nullsec anoms, the ISK/hour from these things is vastly superior to any other ship. This is because they let you loot and salvage the entire anomaly while you're running it. You don't need to come back in a noctis. You have 95% of the DPS of the pirate battleship that was getting you 40-50m ticks before, only now, in the same timeframe you were running the anoms before, you get all the loot and salvage as well. That probably close to doubles your income.
If you scan down a fleet staging point or a 10/10, you don't have to **** around with a pathetic-DPS HML Tengu and constant warpouts. This thing goes in, face tanks the entire final room, pew pews down the overseer structure and gets out in a few minutes.
In wormholes it's even better, even a C3 will easily provide >250m/hour as long as you have anoms to run. You're not screwing around with a sig-tanking T3, you're vaporizing it with a BS that does double the DPS and salvages everything too at the same time.
So from that perspective, he's absolutely right. These things absolute crap all over pirate BS for solo PvE. The problem is, if a lot of people start doing this, that's going to bring the gankers out in force and since it locks you in place there's absolutely jack **** you can do to protect yourself. No matter how good your intel, you're going to get a dozen stealth bombers covert cynoed on top of you before you can do anything, or a bunch of cloaky T3s are going to come molest you in your wormhole. |

Zoe Israfil
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:08:00 -
[1575] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Zoe Israfil wrote:I would like to reiterate my strong support of these new ships. I'd also like to address a few recurring topics.
Drones: Many people are saying that their reduced drone bay (not bandwidth) is going to be harsh. I'm assuming that they are referring resupplying in hostile space (not your sov 0.0 or maybe even npc sov). I personally don't see the major issue with this as you have a fairly large cargo bay. While this would not solve the issue if you are in space you can not dock in, I find it rather unlikely you will have one of these ships in undockable space without carrier support.
Damage: Please read EVE UNI's turret damage wiki article before continuing. I keep seeing people talk about how these monsters are going to lose damage and be over tanked. I think that as they are they appear extremely balanced and well thought out. Why? Projection and stationary.
Projection is a complicated issue, and is poorly understood by many within the EVE community. Because it is hidden, and because the formula is balls complicated, many people pass it off as something that can be ignored and decide to focus on raw paper dps instead. This is a horrible, horrible mistake. I am a minnie pilot and have spent a considerable amount of time reading about projection, and while I don't proclaim to be an expert, I can say with conviction that projection bonuses are vastly superior to damage bonuses in my opinion (on battleships). Just as we have EHP/ raw HP we have Applied DPS/ raw DPS.
It is fairly well understood that at "max falloff" (optimal plus falloff) you are doing 50% of paper dps. As a GENERALIZATION this scales almost linearly throughout falloff (so at half of falloff you are getting -25% of paper dps). What is often not accounted for is the SAME APPLIES TO TRACKING. This means that the target is moving at half of your max tracking you are also getting another -25% to applied damage. How often as pilots are you orbiting a target at ~50% of max falloff? For me it's pretty often. Under these "normal" conditions we can expect almost a 50% reduction in paper dps. The bonuses proposed on these new ships are absolutely amazing in my opinion as they help to mitigate such a loss.
Tank: While many people are concerned about the ridiculous tanks that will be fielded by these guys, I'd just like to challenge everyone to sit still in their next 7/10 - 9/10. Don't move, just tank. You don't even have to shoot anything. Speed/sig tanking may not be the primary form of tanking on battleships by a huge margin, but I assure you it has a Significant impact.
Stationary: I don't really have the space to address this in this post, as this is a huge and fantastic change. I will suffice to say that this will have a huge impact on pve/pvp doctrines and will reshape the current way of thinking. I think this is one of the most fantastic changes to happen since I've been playing. I completely support these awesome ships and think they will be a great addition. Please feel free to challenge anything I'm proposing, as I definitely feel strongly about these ships and would like to be involved in the community that may ultimately shape them. drones: resupply of drones is irritating but yeah not really detrimental damage: higher 'paper' dps means the higher dps you CAN apply if conditions are right. You may be able to apply more damage with better application via projection, tracking, but in best case scenarios you will do less dps. And i believe that opt+ 1/2 falloff is more like 85% than 75% now for stationary... here you have 2 options: 1 - MOVE but have less projection - through moving you can get into the range where you can project and do more dps - even more dps 1- stay still.... but project further. It might be easier to apply damage this way, but your damage cap is lower. And as soon as you move you are either going to be slow, or you are going to MJD out of your effective range, OR you could move quickly with mwd, but then you are dualproping and gimping tracking/opt/tank, or why not just use a ship with just an mwd, and move into range where you have higher possible dps? Both are.... viable. But many prefer the ability to output more dps
I'm just going to post a copy of the table here, because obviously people arn't looking at it...
Percent of Tracking or Falloff | Hit chance | DPS reduction 0% 100% 0.0% 25% 95.8% GêÆ6.1% 33.3% 92.6% GêÆ10.6% 50% 84.1% GêÆ22.1% 84.8% 60.8% GêÆ50.0% 100% 50.0% GêÆ61.1% 150% 21.0% GêÆ85.2% 200% 6.25% GêÆ94.3% 300% 0.20% GêÆ99.4%
Projection is better than raw deeps. factor in hit chance with dps drop.... |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:10:00 -
[1576] - Quote
I have questions.
-Why did you decide to completely wreck their mobility in normal mode? ABs will be completely useless on the new Marauders, and 100MN MWDs still have such obscene cap useage that no battleship is able to run them for more than three cycles without entering unstable capacitor territory (especially egregious considering that literally every T2 ship I've fiddled with thus far on Sisi is CAP STABLE AT ROUGHLY 40% with nothing but the MWD running- and I am talking about a battleship with nothing but the MWD running as well).
-What train of thought did you have in deciding that Marauders will specialize in damage projection rather than... Marauding? (It just so happens that the only ship that I feel can 'maraud' at the battleship level is the Machariel.)
-Why do you think that becoming stationary for a minute will be a good thing in a rapidly shifting battlefield, especially in PvP? Fights can move. Fights can definitely move closer to the Marauder, which once in Bastion mode, is a bigger threat due to better damage projection. It's stationary, cannot warp, and has thin buffer, making up for it with over the top active tanking. But that will be utterly overwhelmed by alpha strike capabilities to the point where the Marauder will be written off entirely and be able to do nothing about it.
-Why did you choose Marauders for being the link between capitals and subcapitals instead of introducing a new line of T2 battleships? The flavour text of Marauders does not support what is happening to them at all.
-HOW DOES THE MJD BENEFIT MISSION RUNNING? Please, tell me this, because I have run many, many L4s in a Golem, and honestly, the MJD would just screw everything up. You go too far in a single use, and you must wait roughly a minute in a new Marauder before you can do this again. Or, you can choose to sluggishly chug along at ~95m/s in the new Golem to close the last 20km to the acceleration gate.
That being said there IS NO CURRENT BATTLESHIP SET that specializes in mobility (and when I say 'mobility' I mean 'speed and agility of a lightly plated battlecruiser'). None. And It is personally my opinion that I think Marauders would fit much better in that niche than being 'mini dreads', with big emphasis on 'mini'. Mini damage output, mini tank, etc.
I just want to understand why you've chosen this route and seem completely set on following through on it despite the overwhelming desire I'm seeing people have to see different changes implemented.
|

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
613
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:19:00 -
[1577] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:~*words*~
Do you ever think about what you're doing? Thanks for describing how literally any battleship that can warp in at and/or maintain range can kill frigates if it wants to. Your approach here works irrespective of whether a ship has a gimmick siege module or not-- I used to do it with a Machariel all the time by simply warping to anomalies at range. If I'd wanted to, I could have fit a MJD to do the same thing.
Regardless, I'm glad the testing methodology for a ship "re-designed to be more useful for PvP" consists mainly of listening to people's feedback regarding how well the ship will perform in PvE and running missions in highsec to see if they're right. That is, you know, when you're not trying to tank incursion sites with them just for jollies.
I'm also confused as to why this concept of an overpowered PvE battleship is getting any traction at CCP in the first place, since you guys seemed dead-set on rendering all low clear time ratting setups non-viable (see addition of frigates to anoms to make Talos' not work, hell-nerfing of capital guns and removal of sentries from supercarriers to make supercaps useless for PvE, etc). You guys kept saying that these things had to go because, "people were making way too much money." Now you come back and design ******-proof ratting battleships that will make tanking beyond easy to, "lower clear times by improving damage projection and time spent shooting." Am I the only one who finds this strange? Titan ratting had to be nerfed because they did too much DPS, didn't have to worry about tanking, and were e-war immune, but a battleship that accomplishes essentially the same goals is a design priority at CCP?
I don't even get how it's possible for the game design team not to see how terrible this whole idea is: it doesn't significantly change people's ability to PvE in battleship hulls; even if it did improve it it, doing so would be at odds with your supposed game design philosophy; the ships will be beyond useless for PvP despite your claims that a main goal of the revamp was to add PvP functionality; and you continually ignore all critical feedback that's not related to "how will these change affect my mission clear-times?"
Honestly I'm done posting in these pointless dev threads. These dumb ships are going to be rammed through regardless of how many valid criticisms are presented to you, because you've already gone and spent the man hours on art assets before even floating the idea to the players. Next thing we know, these ships will be on SiSi-- mostly unchanged-- so that you guys can ignore another round of feedback and then push them out the door a few weeks later. By the time these bad concepts come up for community review, all that's left is a raging debate over minor differences in final stats rather than the conceptual vetoes that could keep you guys from wasting entire development cycles on stupid gimmicks. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:20:00 -
[1578] - Quote
Zoe Israfil wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Zoe Israfil wrote:I would like to reiterate my strong support of these new ships. I'd also like to address a few recurring topics.
Drones: Many people are saying that their reduced drone bay (not bandwidth) is going to be harsh. I'm assuming that they are referring resupplying in hostile space (not your sov 0.0 or maybe even npc sov). I personally don't see the major issue with this as you have a fairly large cargo bay. While this would not solve the issue if you are in space you can not dock in, I find it rather unlikely you will have one of these ships in undockable space without carrier support.
Damage: Please read EVE UNI's turret damage wiki article before continuing. I keep seeing people talk about how these monsters are going to lose damage and be over tanked. I think that as they are they appear extremely balanced and well thought out. Why? Projection and stationary.
Projection is a complicated issue, and is poorly understood by many within the EVE community. Because it is hidden, and because the formula is balls complicated, many people pass it off as something that can be ignored and decide to focus on raw paper dps instead. This is a horrible, horrible mistake. I am a minnie pilot and have spent a considerable amount of time reading about projection, and while I don't proclaim to be an expert, I can say with conviction that projection bonuses are vastly superior to damage bonuses in my opinion (on battleships). Just as we have EHP/ raw HP we have Applied DPS/ raw DPS.
It is fairly well understood that at "max falloff" (optimal plus falloff) you are doing 50% of paper dps. As a GENERALIZATION this scales almost linearly throughout falloff (so at half of falloff you are getting -25% of paper dps). What is often not accounted for is the SAME APPLIES TO TRACKING. This means that the target is moving at half of your max tracking you are also getting another -25% to applied damage. How often as pilots are you orbiting a target at ~50% of max falloff? For me it's pretty often. Under these "normal" conditions we can expect almost a 50% reduction in paper dps. The bonuses proposed on these new ships are absolutely amazing in my opinion as they help to mitigate such a loss.
Tank: While many people are concerned about the ridiculous tanks that will be fielded by these guys, I'd just like to challenge everyone to sit still in their next 7/10 - 9/10. Don't move, just tank. You don't even have to shoot anything. Speed/sig tanking may not be the primary form of tanking on battleships by a huge margin, but I assure you it has a Significant impact.
Stationary: I don't really have the space to address this in this post, as this is a huge and fantastic change. I will suffice to say that this will have a huge impact on pve/pvp doctrines and will reshape the current way of thinking. I think this is one of the most fantastic changes to happen since I've been playing. I completely support these awesome ships and think they will be a great addition. Please feel free to challenge anything I'm proposing, as I definitely feel strongly about these ships and would like to be involved in the community that may ultimately shape them. drones: resupply of drones is irritating but yeah not really detrimental damage: higher 'paper' dps means the higher dps you CAN apply if conditions are right. You may be able to apply more damage with better application via projection, tracking, but in best case scenarios you will do less dps. And i believe that opt+ 1/2 falloff is more like 85% than 75% now for stationary... here you have 2 options: 1 - MOVE but have less projection - through moving you can get into the range where you can project and do more dps - even more dps 1- stay still.... but project further. It might be easier to apply damage this way, but your damage cap is lower. And as soon as you move you are either going to be slow, or you are going to MJD out of your effective range, OR you could move quickly with mwd, but then you are dualproping and gimping tracking/opt/tank, or why not just use a ship with just an mwd, and move into range where you have higher possible dps? Both are.... viable. But many prefer the ability to output more dps I'm just going to post a copy of the table here, because obviously people arn't looking at it... Percent of Tracking or Falloff | Hit chance | DPS reduction 0% 100% 0.0% 25% 95.8% GêÆ6.1% 33.3% 92.6% GêÆ10.6% 50% 84.1% GêÆ22.1% 84.8% 60.8% GêÆ50.0% 100% 50.0% GêÆ61.1% 150% 21.0% GêÆ85.2% 200% 6.25% GêÆ94.3% 300% 0.20% GêÆ99.4% Projection is better than raw deeps. factor in hit chance with dps drop....
yes, but if you MOVE then you can PROJECT your damage, instead of being immobile. You see how if you have a higehr damage ship, and you move into position, you still do more dps
|

Jedediah Arndtz
Warner Bros.
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:21:00 -
[1579] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP.
Yeah, just look at all the people running around solo and small gang in Vindicators, they must need more options from the basic billion isk battleships that people are losing left and right.
All that's going to happen is that L4 runners have an easier time, from both the bastion tank and the 15% increase in boosters. Where's the love for passive tank, by the way? Rattlesnake's already bad enough, without the stealth nerf. |

Shade Alidiana
ScorpCorp.
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:21:00 -
[1580] - Quote
Mmm... They are already slow enough, why even slower? But in general sounds good, although I'd like drone bays like 60 m3 instead (5 hobgoblins 5 salvagers 2 armor bots, or 6-5-1 respectively - need some spare drones anyway) |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:29:00 -
[1581] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:just want to point out that feedback is also telling you that this is a bad idea, gj selectively hearing.
and when it hits tq and its a bad idea,
i aint sayin i told you so, but ..
Feedback is also saying this is an awesome idea, so which feedback are they supposed to listen to? If they only listened to negative feedback the game would be in an utterly horrible state. If you have a reason this is a horrible idea then support it with evidence, otherwise just saying "this is a horrible idea" doesn't carry much weight.
Jedediah Arndtz wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP.
Yeah, just look at all the people running around solo and small gang in Vindicators, they must need more options from the basic billion isk battleships that people are losing left and right. All that's going to happen is that L4 runners have an easier time, from both the bastion tank and the 15% increase in boosters. Where's the love for passive tank, by the way? Rattlesnake's already bad enough, without the stealth nerf.
If you missed it Pirate Battleships are next on the rebalance queue along with Black-Ops. |

Jason Dunham
Barr Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:36:00 -
[1582] - Quote
I think this is a great idea. I think it will add to meaningful gameplay choices. I'm definitely excited about pve, but I'm even more excited if the changes could make it a viable choice in pvp. I love having different choices to make, it makes pvp a lot more interesting.
Please keep up the good work guys. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1402
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:37:00 -
[1583] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. [...] surprisingly enough, your tests confirm word for word what i have been saying 40 pages ago: - new marauder level 4 performance outclasses everything else, including pirate BS. - the tank bonus is so strong, it allows you to actually tank vanguards.
ytterbium, please reconsider adding this module to the current marauder hulls. the mjd bonus, together with slight tweaks to their EHP, sensor strength, scan resolution and mobility should be more than enough to make them an interesting option in pvp while keeping their pve role intact. you can see them as T2 'attack' battleships if you like.
the bastion module is a cool idea but it just doesn't fit the current marauder class as well as you seem to think it does. if you want to introduce it (and i think you should), consider adding a third set of T2 battleships, the 'combat' marauders. those will be what the abaddon and rokh already are: beefy but less mobile siege tanks complete with siege mode for pos bashes, gate camps, blob warfare and other shenanigans where it's all about hurt.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:38:00 -
[1584] - Quote
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
ALSO. For PVP, I think MJD and Bastion will introduce some exciting new game mechanics. Imagine a pair of marauders MJD'ing in different directions, but landing close enough that with long guns one can pick off frigs trying to point the other. Scale up two groups of marauders for the same effect. EW immune, Bastioned up, the tanks would be a pain in the ass to deal with.
For incursions, leave them w/out bastion for Assault and HQ sites. 4 free hi-slots make for incredible utility and marauder resists are good enough with sufficient buffer. For Vanguards, I've been playing with some blinged up fits that might be sustainable under local rep. 100% local rep bonus and 30% resists, non-stacking? Add in dead space invuln/EANM, DCII, command links bonus... I'd think they can stand at least for a minute until the bastion can be cycled off. Armor might be a bit squeaky...
The web nerfs for Palidan and Kronos, at least in Incurions, isn't the end of the world. Vanguard squads are going to need Lokis or Bhaals to long point things once again. 3x 60% webs will do the job. The increased range for Scorch or Null will make killing frigate spawns at range easier since sebo'd or re-sebo'd Pallys can stand with Nightmare lock times. No more gimped marauder sensor rez, yay!
I'm excited. Ultimately, these proposed changes will increase marauder utility, adding new and exciting possibilities. New and exciting, isn't that what expansions are all about?
Dear CCP. Can we get these on SiSi soonest? Kthanxbai. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:39:00 -
[1585] - Quote
Shade Alidiana wrote:Mmm... They are already slow enough, why even slower? But in general sounds good, although I'd like drone bays like 60 m3 instead (5 hobgoblins 5 salvagers 2 armor bots, or 6-5-1 respectively - need some spare drones anyway) I'm not sure about the drone bay nerf myself. I can see where they would have issues with sentries via the bandwidth nerf that solves that issue, but it's not like they are adding a 10% tracking bonus to all drones on these ships for them to be an issue. |

Zoe Israfil
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:42:00 -
[1586] - Quote
I understand that many people are upset over the lack of dps these guys might be able to put out; people are concerned over pvp applications.
I think these guys are going to an absolute amazing addition to pvp in SMALL GANGS. What we are seeing is a battleship class that gets bonuses to projection. If we look at the golem in particular we see a +5% bonus to explosion velocity and 50% to target painters.... a dual tp golem SHOULD get very respectable projection against battlecruisers/cruiser classes. I've not done the math with any certainty but please some check me on it. We might even see a ship class that does not fear frigates if they have web support (loki anybody?). To me these ships seem like super accurate medium calibre sniper rifles.... They are highly accurate and their dps (while maybe not on par with some of the other monsters) can be put on some real small targtes. This makes me very very excited. I personally can not wait to see some of these in the hands of creative pvp'ers.... |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:43:00 -
[1587] - Quote
As i thought a whole weekend the community tries to give feedback the only answer is
"we dont read all ur **** because applepie and look how awesome our change is"
only word on drones is we ****** drone aggro anyway you dont need them anymore
thanks for that
can i have now my two month of training back ? |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:43:00 -
[1588] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
ALSO. For PVP, I think MJD and Bastion will introduce some exciting new game mechanics. Imagine a pair of marauders MJD'ing in different directions, but landing close enough that with long guns one can pick off frigs trying to point the other. Scale up two groups of marauders for the same effect. EW immune, Bastioned up, the tanks would be a pain in the ass to deal with.
For incursions, leave them w/out bastion for Assault and HQ sites. 4 free hi-slots make for incredible utility and marauder resists are good enough with sufficient buffer. For Vanguards, I've been playing with some blinged up fits that might be sustainable under local rep. 100% local rep bonus and 30% resists, non-stacking? Add in dead space invuln/EANM, DCII, command links bonus... I'd think they can stand at least for a minute until the bastion can be cycled off. Armor might be a bit squeaky...
The web nerfs for Palidan and Kronos, at least in Incurions, isn't the end of the world. Vanguard squads are going to need Lokis or Bhaals to long point things once again. 3x 60% webs will do the job. The increased range for Scorch or Null will make killing frigate spawns at range easier since sebo'd or re-sebo'd Pallys can stand with Nightmare lock times. No more gimped marauder sensor rez, yay!
I'm excited. Ultimately, these proposed changes will increase marauder utility, adding new and exciting possibilities. New and exciting, isn't that what expansions are all about?
Dear CCP. Can we get these on SiSi soonest? Kthanxbai.
as for incursions, the 4 utility slots are irrelevent unless you want them to spider tank. if you need other ships than marauder they need logies - unless you want the marauders to rep them and if you use spider tanking you are losing their 'damage' bonus (range)
its not that its impossible, its that it doesnt make sense |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:51:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:surprisingly enough, your tests confirm word for word what i have been saying 40 pages ago: - new marauder level 4 performance outclasses everything else, including pirate BS. - the tank bonus is so strong, it allows you to actually tank vanguards. ytterbium, please reconsider adding this module to the current marauder hulls. the mjd bonus, together with slight tweaks to their EHP, sensor strength, scan resolution and mobility should be more than enough to make them an interesting option in pvp while keeping their pve role intact. you can see them as T2 'attack' battleships if you like.the bastion module is a cool idea but it just doesn't fit the current marauder class as well as you seem to think it does. if you want to introduce it (and i think you should), consider adding a third set of T2 battleships, the 'combat' marauders. those will be what the abaddon and rokh already are: beefy but less mobile siege tanks complete with siege mode for pos bashes, gate camps, blob warfare and other shenanigans where it's all about hurt.
Attack Battleships would have more speed and gank but less tank. High end Attack Battleships is more likely to be the Pirate Battleships.
The only thing the current marauders have going for them is tank. The Pirate Battleships have more gank and speed, the navy ships have more of either one depending.
The Marauders are and always have been good for tanking and fittings, two things that these new Marauders are still going to be fantastic at. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:03:00 -
[1590] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is KRONOMNOMNOS:High:4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beams II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module Med:1x Large Micro Jump Drive 1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800) 1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts) Low:1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs:1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I 1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter. With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything. I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea. How to wreck things in missions?Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them. Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course. Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me. [list] Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km
..........
Seriosly 1500 post from the comm u picked out some thigns you can easily deny
and this video is not even funny to get me to klick it
im so serios upset by you guys
just so wtf
if u would say ok we read all this (what ive done) and dont appricate but that post what the ****
marauders long time engagement really with 800 capboosters only 5 small drones
how long will that be 20 annos in null have to warp out once to a neut drones to far away ... u have no cap boosters left and no drones so u have to take 6 jumps with this brick to refill ?!
annos in null warp in at 0 blapp **** repeat yeah awesome range... oh **** a neut enters hm 58 seconds left on my cool bastion thing. neut warps in 15 secs later to your anno due to "awesome" overview change tackles
what could go wrong i can tank 1329846dps with my cool mod
cyno 20 talos dead 2 bill gone nice
yeah changes are awesome
oh and i forgot
missions warp in blap 20 small medium **** gate is 50 away hm lets just do 2 mjds to get there miscalculate by 1 mm cause no overview help sit in a spheric structure cant get out for 20 mins ... sure its faster now
get into wc get scrambled launch my mighty 5 drones because frigs are @ 0 on warpin drones die in 3 seconds sit there scramled for whole 30 min until u finally manage to get out of range of them with awesome 1,2 m/s with mwd cause of webs oh i forget u have to use mjd its a must to use marauders now
meanwhile noob with 5 mil skillpoints has finished his 30th mission/anno with his 350 mil fitted domi
and laugh his ass off to you
|
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:08:00 -
[1591] - Quote
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. |

quigibow
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:10:00 -
[1592] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Battle Cube wrote:MeBiatch wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
what if you guys made a script then? one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase... that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both. that would be a good way to make it more similar to a mini-dread concept and would make it viable in incursions, even with the RR problem if the possible dps was enough, then players would find a way. (yay high risk high reward) A lot like how the vindi's applied dps due to range is absurd, but its very popular in incursions. this is what i am thinking so script one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% Script two: Increases all large turret damage by 37.5% Increases all large missile damage by 37.5% Decreases all large turret tracking by 50% Decreases all large missile explosion velocity and increase to explosion radius by 25% without a script: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% Increases all large turret damage by 18.75% Increases all large missile damage by 18.75% Decreases all large turret tracking by 25% Decreases all large missile explosion velocity and increase to explosion radius by 12.5%
this and fyp |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:11:00 -
[1593] - Quote
i just dont startet on the pvp site an i wont today to upset but yeah pvp goons vs n3
400 on each side
tell me which one enters bastion thanks to cool animation its easier than to spot a triage carrierer or dread in siege
alpha next
or the other day
sitting on a pos 1 dread 10 marauders
dread wins vs 10 marauders on damage isk skilltime and jumps out just the moment local fills with reds
next day
small gang stuff look a marauder transforming ... cyno
why are cynabels so good @ solo and smallscale ?
projection tank ?
no because of gtfo |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1403
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:13:00 -
[1594] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Attack Battleships would have more speed and gank but less tank. High end Attack Battleships is more likely to be the Pirate Battleships.
The only thing the current marauders have going for them is tank. The Pirate Battleships have more gank and speed, the navy ships have more of either one depending.
The Marauders are and always have been good for tanking and fittings, two things that these new Marauders are still going to be fantastic at. the paladin has the same dps as the nightmare. the golem has the same dps as the navy raven. the vargur has slightly less dps than the machariel but better projection with similar fits. the kronos... is bad and deserves a buff.
the marauders' EHP is not exceptional other than the slightly higher base resists and their active tank bonuses would fit an attack battleship just as well. notice also the huge mobility upgrade that is a reduced mjd cooldown.
pirate battleships are radically different from one another. for example, the nightmare goes 300 with afterburner on whereas the mach is at almost 1k. you would be best advised to not push them into the 'attack' role whereas the marauders with their new common bonus fit this role very well. also 'attack' does not have to mean increased dps, it can also mean additional combat utility such as EWAR which three of the marauder hulls already bring.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:20:00 -
[1595] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.
Bat,
Don't go making such generaisations. I'm a Hi Sec mission runner (and WH'er), looong time Pally user and love these changes.
Ytterbium's post only confirms what I thought these things would be able to do. I must admit the idea of both a MWD and MJD never occurred to me (I thought for some reason you could only have one or the other fitted, live and learn), but that removes issues with gate to gate travel.
I'm already thinking/dreaming about my Tach Pally C3 Sleeper murder machine!!!! |

baltec1
Bat Country
7779
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:20:00 -
[1596] - Quote
Aglais wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. The only rage I'm seeing is from people who don't think these Marauders will have what it takes for PvP. They're going to be awkward and gimmicky, and probably not all that hard to kill (Just throw together a bunch of Tornadoes for maybe half the price), for a 1 billion ISK price tag.
Well I would expect a bunch of tornadoes to be a threat because there is a bunch of them. Price tags mean nothing in balance terms. |

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2224
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:21:00 -
[1597] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls 
Yeah - got that - no problem if they're not better (you did a pretty great job at not making any T2 ship better than T1, tbh), but what's the reasoning behind higher skill time, associated skillbook cost and higher hull cost then?
I have no problem with that on my noob alt - I just wont train any T2 ships on it - simple as that. At around 60 mill SP, training is done and that's that.
However you massively devalued my older chars. Two with all racial HAC V (which is now a useless skill), all racial CS V (not good before, still 'meh' after the changes) and now one with all racial Marauders V.
And what's that about how you can do L4's in them? Any complete moron can do them perfectly fine in almost any hull - for faster completion times, I'd still use an MWD mach because the MJD and bastion mod will just slow down my completion time.
If T2 hulls aren't better, just seed the BPOs on the open market, make them have the same build cost as T1, remove the T2 ship skills and add them to the T1 roster. You can keep my SP - at least my clones will be a lot cheaper. You know... morons. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1259
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:22:00 -
[1598] - Quote
Please make the bolded changes to the kronos thank you
Quote:KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay Target Spectrum Breaker signature resolution penalty reduced to 0
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 14000 PWG (+2000), 580 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6600(-200) / 7200(-100) / 8600(+400) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6900(+1275) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 6 cap/s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 m/s(-28) / .114(-0.0038) / 113160000(+11360000) / 17.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+3km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 13 Magnetometric Signature radius: 420(-80) There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:24:00 -
[1599] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aglais wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. The only rage I'm seeing is from people who don't think these Marauders will have what it takes for PvP. They're going to be awkward and gimmicky, and probably not all that hard to kill (Just throw together a bunch of Tornadoes for maybe half the price), for a 1 billion ISK price tag. Well I would expect a bunch of tornadoes to be a threat because there is a bunch of them. Price tags mean nothing in balance terms.
price tag means nothing....
Excellent, pirate ships should be same as t1, GO |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:25:00 -
[1600] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Danica Fox wrote:i just dont startet on the pvp site an i wont today to upset but yeah pvp goons vs n3
400 on each side
tell me which one enters bastion thanks to cool animation its easier than to spot a triage carrierer or dread in siege
alpha next
or the other day
sitting on a pos 1 dread 10 marauders
dread wins vs 10 marauders on damage isk skilltime and jumps out just the moment local fills with reds
next day
small gang stuff look a marauder transforming ... cyno
why are cynabels so good @ solo and smallscale ?
projection tank ?
no because of gtfo Go fight a dickstar and tell me the dread is better. Also what makes you think we would only blob these ships?
dread sieges too same thing there and in small gangs even with no blob u will alway loose isk war unless u kil2 or something
anything that cant win will gtfo (maybe not on the first week)
they have the smallest niche i can think off
before they were short range subpar pve bs with build in subpar noctis which made them singlebox wise worthy
now they are the slowest mjd bs with not even the option to use salvage drones thanks to bay and a pvp role that i cant see @ all
fly through 0 and low sec and find 1 vs 1/2/3 s u will loose marauders due to awesome mobilty until u find a non blob
|
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:27:00 -
[1601] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls  Yeah - got that - no problem if they're not better (you did a pretty great job at not making any T2 ship better than T1, tbh), but what's the reasoning behind higher skill time, associated skillbook cost and higher hull cost then? I have no problem with that on my noob alt - I just wont train any T2 ships on it - simple as that. At around 60 mill SP, training is done and that's that. However you massively devalued my older chars. Two with all racial HAC V (which is now a useless skill), all racial CS V (not good before, still 'meh' after the changes) and now one with all racial Marauders V. And what's that about how you can do L4's in them? Any complete moron can do them perfectly fine in almost any hull - for faster completion times, I'd still use an MWD mach because the MJD and bastion mod will just slow down my completion time. If T2 hulls aren't better, just seed the BPOs on the open market, make them have the same build cost as T1, remove the T2 ship skills and add them to the T1 roster. You can keep my SP - at least my clones will be a lot cheaper.
i tend to agree. If this ship is going to be just "ok" in terms of comparing it to pirate, it should be just as cheap as t1. Like t2 guns vs faction guns vs meta guns....
i dont WANT to make it cheaper, i WANT to make it better - but at least it would make sense for balancing
While your at it make all t2 and t3 cheap. It would have the added bonus of making moon goo worthless :D |

baltec1
Bat Country
7779
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:28:00 -
[1602] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:baltec1 wrote:Aglais wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. The only rage I'm seeing is from people who don't think these Marauders will have what it takes for PvP. They're going to be awkward and gimmicky, and probably not all that hard to kill (Just throw together a bunch of Tornadoes for maybe half the price), for a 1 billion ISK price tag. Well I would expect a bunch of tornadoes to be a threat because there is a bunch of them. Price tags mean nothing in balance terms. price tag means nothing.... Excellent, pirate ships should be same as t1, GO
The are indeed being balanced against t1 ships. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7779
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:32:00 -
[1603] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:
dread sieges too same thing there and in small gangs even with no blob u will alway loose isk war unless u kil2 or something
anything that cant win will gtfo (maybe not on the first week)
they have the smallest niche i can think off
before they were short range subpar pve bs with build in subpar noctis which made them singlebox wise worthy
now they are the slowest mjd bs with not even the option to use salvage drones thanks to bay and a pvp role that i cant see @ all
fly through 0 and low sec and find 1 vs 1/2/3 s u will loose marauders due to awesome mobilty until u find a non blob
I will be flying the kronos with cruiser gangs come winter and it will do fine keeping up. I will have both blaster and sniper setups. I can see this being a good ship for use on gates, stations and in small gangs. |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:35:00 -
[1604] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Danica Fox wrote:
dread sieges too same thing there and in small gangs even with no blob u will alway loose isk war unless u kil2 or something
anything that cant win will gtfo (maybe not on the first week)
they have the smallest niche i can think off
before they were short range subpar pve bs with build in subpar noctis which made them singlebox wise worthy
now they are the slowest mjd bs with not even the option to use salvage drones thanks to bay and a pvp role that i cant see @ all
fly through 0 and low sec and find 1 vs 1/2/3 s u will loose marauders due to awesome mobilty until u find a non blob
I will be flying the kronos with cruiser gangs come winter and it will do fine keeping up. I will have both blaster and sniper setups. I can see this being a good ship for use on gates, stations and in small gangs.
if ur the baltec i think of flying megathrons in shield fleets (which was awesome) and so on i-¦m sorry im not allowed to hunt u down wiht another gang and see all ur cruisers gtfo letting u sit there in bastion mode with a timer next to the gate/station
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7780
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:42:00 -
[1605] - Quote
Danica Fox wrote:
if ur the baltec i think of flying megathrons in shield fleets (which was awesome) and so on i-¦m sorry im not allowed to hunt u down wiht a tornado / naga / neutships/ harpy gang and see all ur cruisers gtfo letting u sit there in bastion mode with a timer next to the gate/station
Never not mega.
I would find a way to get out. |

Guy en Gravonere
Gravonere Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:47:00 -
[1606] - Quote
These are some really interesting changes, and I've been trying to get an idea of how well they'll perform by adding the tank and local rep bonuses to what the hulls are capable of now, which led me to an interesting discovery.
If I'm multiplying the bonuses properly, a Vargur fit with dual X-L ASBs, a pair of invulnerability fields, a shield Amplifier(This leaves one midslot for a prop mod) and a Damage control could potentially overheat and tank around 11,000 DPS until the ASBs run out of charges. One could also run a single ASB at a time, for a mere 5,500 DPS tank. That's without any sort of faction/deadspace/officer modules, which means a pimped out version could be truly ridiculous.
This is all tempered somewhat by the fact that at least one, maybe two, of the slots used on tank would likely be required for any PvP use besides straight up bait, but its still going to be an unbelievably hard to kill ship. So much so that I think it might be worth looking into decreasing CPU a little bit, to make dual ASB setups harder to fit. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2667
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:49:00 -
[1607] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.
i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.
Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.
I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.
I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:54:00 -
[1608] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.
current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:54:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Guy en Gravonere wrote:These are some really interesting changes, and I've been trying to get an idea of how well they'll perform by adding the tank and local rep bonuses to what the hulls are capable of now, which led me to an interesting discovery.
If I'm multiplying the bonuses properly, a Vargur fit with dual X-L ASBs, a pair of invulnerability fields, a shield Amplifier(This leaves one midslot for a prop mod) and a Damage control could potentially overheat and tank around 11,000 DPS until the ASBs run out of charges. One could also run a single ASB at a time, for a mere 5,500 DPS tank. That's without any sort of faction/deadspace/officer modules, which means a pimped out version could be truly ridiculous.
This is all tempered somewhat by the fact that at least one, maybe two, of the slots used on tank would likely be required for any PvP use besides straight up bait, but its still going to be an unbelievably hard to kill ship. So much so that I think it might be worth looking into decreasing CPU a little bit, to make dual ASB setups harder to fit.
5500 dps tank is nothing. Try this one with a blue pill and a fleet booster:
[Golem, space hedgehog of doom]
4x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile) 2x Medium Energy Neutralizer II Medium Nosferatu II
2x X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400) 2x Gistum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist X-Type EM Ward Field Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Warp Scrambler II
Damage Control II 3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Large Processor Overclocking Unit II
5x Hobgoblin II
overheat one invulnerability field and alternate the ASBs for a 10,000 dps perma-tank with 864dps output and a scram + 2 neuts.
With a bastion module, it'll tank 26000dps. more than a carrier.
The problem is ASBs - they need to be limited to 1 per ship.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:57:00 -
[1610] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.
Sorry, the problem is the "bastion" cycle time. 60 seconds are too long for many things you can do. WH people are very fast and educated in scanning a ship down, when you cathed you are dead no matter what you think you can tank. in normal 0.0 you need only one tackle with a cyno, low sec the same. Make the "Basiton" modul with a shut on/off mechanik and no delay time, then it will be used. Maybe make "Bastion" moduls for PVE and PVP with other bonuses for the ship.
|
|

GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
372
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:58:00 -
[1611] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Guy en Gravonere wrote:
[Golem, space hedgehog of doom]
... snip ... overheat one invulnerability field and alternate the ASBs for a 10,000 dps perma-tank with 864dps output and a scram + 2 neuts.
With a bastion module, it'll tank 26000dps. more than a carrier.
ASBs by their nature are not permatank. [quote=baltec1] The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.
This has to be another honeypot thread, seriously. (The only changed Marauder that gives me pause is the Golem, but that's only because I still have a warm, fuzzy spot for torps even though 99/100 times cruises are the better option for anything. Ever. But goddamn is the Vargur going to be a killdozer)
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7780
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:59:00 -
[1612] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.
The problem is most don't ever have to think outside of whatever the top 3 battleclinic fits are and their tactics are whatever the mission guides tell them. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
405
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:00:00 -
[1613] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes. current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.
True and with web removal it will be fun seeing dual web marauders struggling to kill stuff in mining colonies and NCOs especialy... not saying they wont work but saying it will be effective is a stretch..only thing marauders will be good at is opening door to IsBoxers.
I still think that nerf on they stock hit points in bad move as well as nerfing speed/agility for sole purpose of forcing certain play stile on people. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:03:00 -
[1614] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
.
Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you
just more of a visual learner |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:05:00 -
[1615] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote: Sorry, the problem is the "bastion" cycle time. 60 seconds are too long for many things you can do. WH people are very fast and educated in scanning a ship down, when you cathed you are dead no matter what you think you can tank. in normal 0.0 you need only one tackle with a cyno, low sec the same. Make the "Basiton" modul with a shut on/off mechanik and no delay time, then it will be used. Maybe make "Bastion" moduls for PVE and PVP with other bonuses for the ship.
Just to put the record straight, wormhole gank squads will only scan you down if they have no other option - i.e. you are in a signature that they did not scan down before you logged on.
Usually we just follow you into an anomaly with a scout ship and call in the hictor drop on the scout.
Unless you have our wormhole covered with a scout of your own you have maximum 15 seconds to react *if* you see the hictor on d-scan while it's on final approach.
Whatever the bastion cycle time, optimistic marauder pilots will die in droves in wormhole space as things stand.
I am looking forward to it, since expensive ships often drop expensive modules.
I have maintained throughout this thread, and I still maintain, that if we want to see more marauders ratting in lowsec, nullsec and w-space, their bonus needs to be based on mobility - not standing still.
Speaking as someone who makes a living from destroying ships that stand still too long...
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:12:00 -
[1616] - Quote
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote: Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you
just more of a visual learner
Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:15:00 -
[1617] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.
Like I said before, the problem is if you use this in 0.0, WHs, or lowsec, you're going to get ganked. Your intel channels and alt scouts can't protect you from covert hotdrops and cloaky Proteuses.
So, it theoretically doubles your 0.0 PvE income? Doesn't matter, you're just going to get killed. Unlike nullsec anoms, plexes, and L5s, L4 missions are easy enough that the bastion module is not needed to run with max gank, meaning it does not help much.
In the current state they're a good upgrade for incursions, but you simply can't use them in most of the places where they would be a huge improvement. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2669
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:18:00 -
[1618] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes. current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.
So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?
What VGs are you flying in?
No, you're simply looking for a reason to dislike the changes, the truth is that these new maruaders will probably lead to isk inflation as people discover what you can do with them. |

Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:19:00 -
[1619] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote: Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you
just more of a visual learner
Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target.
Thanks, that help out alot |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2669
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:25:00 -
[1620] - Quote
[quote=Xequecal]
Like I said before, the problem is if you use this in 0.0, WHs, or lowsec, you're going to get ganked. Your intel channels and alt scouts can't protect you from covert hotdrops and cloaky Proteuses.
Nonsense, it takes more than a minute for someone to probe you down, make it through the adjoining rooms and tackle you in the last room of a maze (for example) and only then if the pilots know which gates to use. And if you're picking the right lvl 5s you won't need to be there longer than the minute a bastion cycle would take.
And what do you mean intel channels can't protect you from covert hotdrps and cloaky proteouses? They still show up in local, you're only screwed if they awox or come out of a wromhole in your system, but then again it would be really stupid to siege in an anom anyway. Maruader for plexes, pirate BS or other ship for anoms.
Quote: So, it theoretically doubles your 0.0 PvE income? Doesn't matter, you're just going to get killed. Unlike nullsec anoms, plexes, and L5s, L4 missions are easy enough that the bastion module is not needed to run with max gank, meaning it does not help much.
Show me exactly where ccps says you HAVE to use the module? Even so, I can think of a half dozen mission rooms where it would be faster than doing anything else. AE bonus room, the hell room of enemies abound, smash the supplier ect ect
Quote: In the current state they're a good upgrade for incursions, but you simply can't use them in most of the places where they would be a huge improvement.
This is simply a demonstration of what I just said: it's not that the idea is bad, it's that the players aren't creative enough to figure out proper usage. |
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:29:00 -
[1621] - Quote
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
. Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you just more of a visual learner
Take 2 chopsticks of equal length. Call that 100KM long. Those are your two MJD jumps. Now, split them so that they're two legs of a triangle. You figure the angle, whatever that is. You can end up 10KM from your start point or 190KM. The 'box' on acceleration gate is what, 10KM by 20KM on a side? Shouldn't be hard to hit. |

Mephrista
Dark Angel's Legion Nite's Reign
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:29:00 -
[1622] - Quote
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:Rroff wrote:Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote: Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you
just more of a visual learner
Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target. Thanks, that help out alot
Don't forget the three minute cool down. You warp to your first spot... sit for 180 seconds doing nothing and then warp to the gate. That's if you nail it the first time.
I feel it's going to be mind numbing. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2669
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:31:00 -
[1623] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.
The problem is most don't ever have to think outside of whatever the top 3 battleclinic fits are and their tactics are whatever the mission guides tell them.
I know. That's why i think these new maruauders will get nerfed to hell once the truly creative players get an actual hold on them.
I'm already trying to figure out a overtanked "tinker tanking" dual Varg set up for anomalies that would convince all but the strongest hotdropping fleets to go away when they realize they couldn't kill me. Have already done it with buffer fit remote repping triple domis, but I woulda tinker tanked them had i had access to a bastion module back then lol. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:36:00 -
[1624] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:And what do you mean intel channels can't protect you from covert hotdrps and cloaky proteouses? They still show up in local, you're only screwed if they awox or come out of a wromhole in your system, but then again it would be really stupid to siege in an anom anyway. Maruader for plexes, pirate BS or other ship for anoms.
Well I was mostly talking about anoms, you could probably reach 75mil effective ticks with salvaging V if you were willing to risk it, as you have 95% the DPS of a Vindicator with a Kronos or even better DPS than a Nightmare (the new Paladin has 12,500 capacitor and an optimal bonus, you can blitz anoms with conflag) and you can salvage pretty much all of the battleships while you're killing your way through the anom.
As far as the rest, moving your ship from where it's docked to the L5 or plex location is really really dangerous. With that mass and 15-20sec align time, you're seriously vulnerable to login traps, which you can't scout. They can just leave a cloaked alt on the gate in an NPC or neutral corp to tackle you. Hell, with that align time they could use a ship with a protocloak and just have them bump you.
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:37:00 -
[1625] - Quote
Mephrista wrote:Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:Rroff wrote:Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote: Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you
just more of a visual learner
Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target. Thanks, that help out alot Don't forget the three minute cool down. You warp to your first spot... sit for 180 seconds doing nothing and then warp to the gate. That's if you nail it the first time. I feel it's going to be mind numbing.
Except that at lvl 5 for the MJD skill, it's 57 seconds tween jumps. Faster than motoring 100m/s for 40KM. Lots faster. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2670
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:38:00 -
[1626] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
That's all well and good but we play in a universe where the majority of pve players don't know that the MJD lets you slip out from under npc "scrambling" or the power of a target lock breaker on accidental full room aggro or litterally hundreds of others module, ammo and tactical treats like that.
Unless a game sets things out for people like that perfectly, they'd never figure it out for themselves. Me personally I figured out the angled MJDing on day 2 after it's introduction, despite being the product of American public schools . And the new maruaders will be able to do that much faster........
Much of the screeching about marauders and the bastion mod is just noise that will rightfully be ignored. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2670
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:46:00 -
[1627] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:And what do you mean intel channels can't protect you from covert hotdrps and cloaky proteouses? They still show up in local, you're only screwed if they awox or come out of a wromhole in your system, but then again it would be really stupid to siege in an anom anyway. Maruader for plexes, pirate BS or other ship for anoms. Well I was mostly talking about anoms, you could probably reach 75mil effective ticks with salvaging V if you were willing to risk it, as you have 95% the DPS of a Vindicator with a Kronos or even better DPS than a Nightmare (the new Paladin has 12,500 capacitor and an optimal bonus, you can blitz anoms with conflag) and you can salvage pretty much all of the battleships while you're killing your way through the anom.
I'll stick with my mach. Problem with the mach is that it couldn't solo escalations. Now i can use my Varg + scout for that.
Quote: As far as the rest, moving your ship from where it's docked to the L5 or plex location is really really dangerous. With that mass and 15-20sec align time, you're seriously vulnerable to login traps, which you can't scout. They can just leave a cloaked alt on the gate in an NPC or neutral corp to tackle you. Hell, with that align time they could use a ship with a protocloak and just have them bump you.
Mwd cloak trick + the proper navigation/agility implants and fitting. It's why pirates gave up on catching my lvl5 rattlesnake YEARS ago :) . I've lost ONE in 3 years to a gate camp. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:52:00 -
[1628] - Quote
They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1487
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:03:00 -
[1629] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak. It is almost like they never want these ships to leave high sec. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

baltec1
Bat Country
7782
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:06:00 -
[1630] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Xequecal wrote:They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak. It is almost like they never want these ships to leave high sec.
Mission bears never leave high sec anyway. I'll still be using them in null though. |
|

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2235
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:19:00 -
[1631] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Xequecal wrote:They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak. It is almost like they never want these ships to leave high sec. Mission bears never leave high sec anyway. I'll still be using them in null though.
With unlimited ressources, that's hardly a tough call. You know... morons. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:27:00 -
[1632] - Quote
Mephrista wrote: Don't forget the three minute cool down. You warp to your first spot... sit for 180 seconds doing nothing and then warp to the gate. That's if you nail it the first time.
I feel it's going to be mind numbing.
70% reduction in that timer so 54 seconds between jumps.
Also why do we care if these things are great for low/null PvE? A ship this expensive won't be taken out there unless it removes almost all risk, or at least enough to pay for itself before it dies. That's just not likely to happen. The best way to do low and null PvE will continue to be either doing it in the middle of your alliance space or with a competent fleet that can handle a PvP encounter and there is probably nothing CCP can do to change this that isn't game breaking. AKA removing all the risk from low or null PvE. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7782
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:29:00 -
[1633] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:
With unlimited ressources, that's hardly a tough call.
I generally have to pay for all of my own ships and don't qualify for reimbursement on most of my fits. |

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:34:00 -
[1634] - Quote
Wizzard117 wrote:2 cents Default movement modes (warping, flying, jumping) does not require any fuel, but every other special movement type (siege mode etc.) does Bastion mode is not a default way marauders fly, so for the sake of consistence it should consume some resources whether it's heavy water or ozone or whatever else Adding extra fuel bay is a way to go
I have to second this but ether way I'm looking forward to playing around with them. Thx u for the much needed Improvements to Mauraders and target painters. Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |

Large Collidable Object
morons.
2235
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:35:00 -
[1635] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:
With unlimited ressources, that's hardly a tough call.
I generally have to pay for all of my own ships and don't qualify for reimbursement on most of my fits.
The largest and richest alliance in the game named their current fleet doctrine after you, so stop bullshitting please.
It's perfectly believeable you don't need any ship reimbursements and wouldn't qualify, but you'd still get them. You know... morons. |

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:35:00 -
[1636] - Quote
Go to any mission hub and see what the carebears are flying, the Vargur is not it. With these changes the only thing a Vargur might be good for is high-sec grief-resitantcy or griefing POSs. Of course flying a slow, massive tub of metal with weak dps, low resolution, small drone bay and a huge tank might be exciting for some missioners there are better, faster, less intensive skill point ships to run them with.
Suppose a carebear is happily putting around in a Vargur SLOWLY killing npcs minding his business when a griefer squad shows up. No problem, turn on The Bastion, get the target spectrum analizer working, fire up the dual Pith X-type shield boosters (or dual asbs) and take a relaxing laugh waiting for Concord to do its job. Then continue missioning but instead of finishing missions quickly taking as long or longer than if a noob was running them. Unless the griefers brought along a LOT of firepower and want the killmail of a 5 billion+ ship. Oh the lolz.
The only ones happy with the changes are the nullbears and their high-sec griefer alts. You can tell by their posts. With the turn in a tag and gain sec status Tyrannosaur sized femur thrown to them last expansion they are very happy with where EVE is going. CCP might wanna start paying attention to what carebears want because in the last year or so carebears went from who cares what CCP and the CSM are coming out with it will be awesome to I better start reading and commenting on posts or CCP is going to nerf my playstile to favor the CSM nullbears even further. Don't believe me? Look at the posts in forums and the number passionate rants erased by the official censors due to whatever offended their sensibilities.
This dev post reminds me of the Youtube video of comedian Robin Williams explaining how the Irish came up with the game of golf. If only it were as funny. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:36:00 -
[1637] - Quote
Rip Minner wrote:Wizzard117 wrote:2 cents Default movement modes (warping, flying, jumping) does not require any fuel, but every other special movement type (siege mode etc.) does Bastion mode is not a default way marauders fly, so for the sake of consistence it should consume some resources whether it's heavy water or ozone or whatever else Adding extra fuel bay is a way to go I have to second this but ether way I'm looking forward to playing around with them. Thx u for the much needed Improvements to Mauraders and target painters.
Except that this would make them half useless for missions. It adds an expensive and hard to transport consumable to already resource and cargo dependent ships and another thing to manage which is frustrating.
To make up for this you would either have to make the resource consumption so low as to not matter in which case why even bother with the fuel in the first place? |

baltec1
Bat Country
7784
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:58:00 -
[1638] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:
The largest and richest alliance in the game named their current fleet doctrine after you, so stop bullshitting please.
It's perfectly believeable you don't need any ship reimbursements and wouldn't qualify, but you'd still get them.
I get peacetime on megathrons. Last I looked it was 60 mil. The only full reimbursement is for mefleet fits but I went and got a navy mega so again I don't get full reimbursement.
Not that it matters, they tend to have long lives.
|

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
339
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:59:00 -
[1639] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is 
your fit looks pretty sound only nitpick would be use a tech 2 burst aerator, and could probably get by with even less tank (aka 4th damage mod!).
but I'd say the thing that matters most is completion times. just saying the npcs got slaughtered doesn't mean anything.
your vargur numbers are very nearly the same as what I get on tq (with lower dps even)
golem numbers need specifications on the rigs, I'm sure many of us still have missile velocity rigs, which I think will be best as a 5x tp fit will be lollerskates to run now. anyways the faction torps should hit what 45km or so? although I would also like to see the numbers with a t2 bay loading accelerator and a t1 bay thruster.
paladin I see 1146 gun dps with 4 heat sinks, t2 burst aerator, and 5% gunnery and large energy turret implants. "at 67km range + 52 Falloff." is lulz! kronos fit the same way only does 1185 at "18.82km + 57.6km with Null" with your figures.
as you say "It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting." well paladin will for the most part keep its mobility, it won't need to drop into bastion mode all that often I think, and projection hahahaha the paladin has a metric butt ton, time spent shooting, uber fast crystal swaps, and no reloading another paladin win!
I'm super excited about the paladin, still a meh about the kronos, and as far as I'm concerned the changes mean almost nothing for the golem or vargur. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
339
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:12:00 -
[1640] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls 
~100 dps difference on just the guns, now add in 4x sentries on the mach. mobility difference will be greater with the change aside from a few situations where a MJD makes sense. Damage application is a bit better, but with that mobility difference I'm not sure a few km of falloff makes a big difference here. More tank is kinda irrelevant as the mach and varg both have plenty already. EW immunity can be big in some areas, but in a bunch of missions that doesn't matter. Less ammo consumption sounds like a plus, but with less dps and theoretically slower completion times it might not even matter.
tractor beam range useful in a few spots (rogue slave traders pt1 it is great as the loot can is right at 40-50km), but I'd still rather come back with a noctis (even better have a noctics alt one room behind) as marauder tractor beams suck vs a noctis. Heck maybe with the machs agility/speed the tractor bonus doesn't even make a marauder better at that mission. MJD bonus again not really all that relevant in most places imo. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
|

Marius Giarc
Giarc Innovations
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:14:00 -
[1641] - Quote
So finally got round to reading the proposed re-balance to the Marauder class...
I am... disappointed, to put it politely.
Ever since they were released in Trinity back in December 2007, Marauders have always been first and foremost a PvE boat.
Marauders were never PvP ships. Reasons for this were simple. Beyond the obvious intensive SP and ISK cost which made their use in for PvP prohibitively expensive, the Marauders were plagued with: 1. Weak Sensor Strength, usually ~60% of the Tech 1 hulls. "jam me now and forever": 2. Huge Signature Radius, usually ~40% greater than T1 and Navy variants: 3. Lack of Power grid for Cap Warfare or Shield/Capacitor Transfers or Remote Reps in Utility Highs. And finally; 4. 7.5% bonus per level to local Reps, whereas PvP vessels utilized Buffer Tanks and Remote Reps.
Not to mention there are simply so many more cheaper, better and more specialized hulls to choose from.
Marauders have always been a niche PvE boat. They offered 50% reduced ammo consumption, a slight increase in DPS over Navy Issues back then, bonus's to local Reps for Active Tanks, and the 100% tractor bonus allowed you to loot/salvage as you went.
The alternative option to loot/salvage back then was a Salvage Destroyer fit (remember those?). The Tractor bonus has become much less useful since the advent of the Noctis back with Trinity in 2010, bar edge cases such as the Epic Arc's. But again, loot/salvage during with Marauder or after with Noctis is personal preference.
Personally, I've been able to fly Marauders for 5 years, mainly the Golem and Vargur. I've always fit them for a mix of Firepower, Protection and Mobility. DPS Projection and the ability to Tank damage has never been an issue. With a Tech II fit you're good, with Faction you're great.
Dependent on the Marauder and the fit, they can pull over 400 m/s, allowing the ability to close with or disengage at will. Fight at range or grab them by the throat. Didn't matter which. Light Drones for those Elite Frigate bastards.
But that's just me, I like a fast, flexible approach to my PvE boats. Fly the Marauder how you want to. Or a Faction BS, or Pirate. Your Choice.
So when I heard about a Marauder 'Rebalance' I was quietly hopeful the Marauders weaknesses in Powergrid, Signature Radius and above all, Sensor Strength, would be resolved.
Powergrid. Buffed. Signature Radius. Buffed. Sensor Strength. Still borked. Ugh. Wait... Drones Bay & Bandwidth. Nerfed. Base Velocity. Nerfed by 19-23%... WTF?
So basically the Marauder rebalancing proposal is to take a fairly fast, flexible PvE boat in line with the Attack Battleship it's based upon, and turn it into a brick... actually slower than the current T1 Combat Battleship bricks like the Rokh.
Then you add the new 'Bastion' module... And a Micro jump Drive...
Okay, let me see if I'm getting this right... the new re-balanced Marauder is now designed to work purely as either a completely immobile brick in Bastion or 'Tortoise' mode, where you just sit there and take a beating while pressing F1, before 'Transforming' and performing a MJD 'hop' 100km away, or 'Hare' mode, which with the cut in base mobility, seems designed as it's new primary mode of mobility.
Tortoise, Hare... Tortoise, Hare... **** that's annoying.
Instead of a Sensor strength rebalance (Still Borked) to alleviate the Perma-jamming Guristas bastards & other EWAR issues, now I simply activate Bastion mode for EWAR Immunity, as apparently the concept of EWAR versus reasonable Sensor strength wouldn't be doing it right...
Instead of killing Elite Frigs with my Light Drones (Drone Nerf) I simply 'Hop' 100km away then kill them with my Guns/Missiles as they re-approach, as apparently Light Drones isn't doing it right...
And finally, Instead of simply lighting a Propulsion module and burning directly to a gate (Mobility Nerf) now I simply perform two MJD hops, utilizing my Degree in Advanced Trigonometry, as apparently select gate hit 'Approach', light prop mod isn't doing it right...
Unless you fit both MJD and MWD if you ever want to get anywhere, which is going to **** your capacitor...
Okay... One final question.
Are you ****ing kidding me?
And yes. I have read CCP ytterbium's post #1512 on using a Marauder in PvE post changes. And it sounds soooo... boring.
Marauders. Push (Bastion) Button. Receive (PvE) Bacon.
Well... I've had some fun with Marauders over the years, but with these changes,.. I think I'll pass, Thanks. I'll stick with the fast, flexible and above all FUN Attack Battleship option and Fly Navy. Or pick up a Pirate. Yarr!
Fly safe... or sit like a brick. Your choice I guess. |

CEALAlatriste
Academia Hispana de Pilotos Universidad Nuwen
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:15:00 -
[1642] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?
What VGs are you flying in?
100 MicroWarpDrive Pirate Hull VG Fleet. You can stay at beacon in bastion mode blapping the frigates of the first spawn. Meanwhile mwd fleet moves to 2-¦ and 3-¦ spawn killing all the sanshas at optimal close range (way more effective dps than projected) before your bastion marauder fleet can even target them, because your sensor sucks and even with a sensor booster a marauder is slower than a pirate ship (yeah, pirate ships fit sebo too).
Thats for Overray Transfer Array. In Nation Mining Colony is same history: your bastion marauder fleet stays at beacon meanwhile mwd fleet moves to next spawns, everything is dead before you can target, bla bla bla. But, when every sansha is dead you have to put 255 units of lyavite in a can that is 80km away. You dont have logis, so a marauder uses its mjd to get there. First you must get your normal status, because you cant use mjd in bastion mode. Also, you cant do it in one jump because will overshoot the can by 20km and slowboating is not an option. So you do triangulation (or whatever) to get there in 2 mjd jumps.
Meanwhile, the scimitar of mwd fleet started its burn towards the can in the last spawn, and its already there when the last sansha dies. The fleet alings to next site and the logi drops the ore. The marauder fleet is still in bastion mode when the mwd fleet lands in next site.
And finally, the Nation Commander Outpost. Well, you think, my bastion marauder fleet is going to own you here, because there is no where to go. No cans, no towers to approach to, only 4 massive frigate spawns from everywhere in the room so everybody stands still in a NCO.
And the race begins. MWD fleet targets and tries to kill as many sanshas as possible meanwhile bastion marauder fleet is still in transformation, they are so cool.... But the transformation ends and boom: 1 sansha get down, boom 2-¦ sansha, 3-¦ ,4-¦... every shoot of bastion marauder fleet is blapping a sansha frig, deleting half of the spawn.
But the other half is already orbiting very close to you with mwd on at 1500m/s. Dont worry, we will use our webs to... oh wait! you dont have web bonus. Nevermind, nobody uses webs in contest because they boost our dps and the enemy fleet dps too. So we will blap that sansha with our superior tracking marauder bonus... oh wait! their vindicators have the same tracking bonus than our marauders and they also have 2 logistics with 6 faction tracking links that boost the other ships with 35% more tracking each.
So yeah, you lose. Again.
Next time play the thing before write a theorical opinion about it.
Regards.
|

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
339
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:39:00 -
[1643] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much.
You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:39:00 -
[1644] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: How to wreck things in missions?
Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.
If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.
Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.
So, it occurred to me that there's sort of this weird dichotomy with the Bastion module for missions.
You have this absolutely godly tank but you have a suggested mission setup that doesn't even really need the tank to be effective. You jump out to the point where you're out of range of all but the most annoying Guristas rats in an already tank bonused ship and start blapping things off the field with your awesome damage application.
This is great except that you don't need the tank to do it and having an awesome tank makes you want to use said tank, which means sitting next to things and shooting them while laughing like a maniac.
Right now between the MJD, the resists, and the range you could pretty much strip the 100% repair bonus straight off in favor of even more range and end up with an overall better setup for high sec missions and probably even most low or null sec pockets, especially if there's a gate into the room since someone warping in on you is now ~120km away and in range of higher damage weapons than they can bring to bear at that range.
Closer in drones and tracking becomes more of a factor while the range becomes less so. Perhaps some sort of script for the Bastion Transformathingie(tm) that lets you swap tank and tracking for range?
Alternatively have equipping the module reduce your drone-bay size so the ships have more flexibility without the module.
(I'm certainly not advocating for the return of the web bonus) |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:42:00 -
[1645] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes. current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies. So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)? What VGs are you flying in? No, you're simply looking for a reason to dislike the changes, the truth is that these new maruaders will probably lead to isk inflation as people discover what you can do with them.
not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs
And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:42:00 -
[1646] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much.
Hence the range bonus. Also nothing forces you to jump so you're 100km away from the rats, you can always jump so you're actually closer to them or more able to apply better damage, hence the damage projection bonus on the Bastion module. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5747
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:42:00 -
[1647] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I know the stacking penalty doesn't apply to the resistance bonus on the bastion module, but what about the optimal/falloff bonuses, the repair amount bonus, and the missile velocity bonus? IMO it really should not be stacking penalized.
Also it would be amazing if there were a tracking bonus on the module as well.
My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:47:00 -
[1648] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much. Hence the range bonus. Also nothing forces you to jump so you're 100km away from the rats, you can always jump so you're actually closer to them or more able to apply better damage, hence the damage projection bonus on the Bastion module.
right..... the ship gets a bonus to MJD so you can move... now you are out of range.... give projection bonus to fix problem we created for ship.....
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:50:00 -
[1649] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs
And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.
There is actually a Vanguard fleet doctrine where you use Sensor boosted Arty Macheriels and only one Logi. The fleet focuses on OTAs and NMCs where things spawn out at long range and alphas them before they can get close. Not something for newbies since you have to coordinate damage a bit but pretty good. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:54:00 -
[1650] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: right..... the ship gets a bonus to MJD so you can move... now you are out of range.... give projection bonus to fix problem we created for ship.....
It's not a problem, it allows you to more effectively pop rats by better applying your damage to them. Sniping from range is great if you can deal good damage at that range which range bonuses help you do. |
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2671
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:12:00 -
[1651] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?
What VGs are you flying in?
100 MicroWarpDrive Pirate Hull VG Fleet. You can stay at beacon in bastion mode blapping the frigates of the first spawn. Meanwhile mwd fleet moves to 2-¦ and 3-¦ spawn killing all the sanshas at optimal close range (way more effective dps than projected) before your bastion marauder fleet can even target them, because your sensor sucks and even with a sensor booster a marauder is slower than a pirate ship (yeah, pirate ships fit sebo too). Thats for Overray Transfer Array. In Nation Mining Colony is same history: your bastion marauder fleet stays at beacon meanwhile mwd fleet moves to next spawns, everything is dead before you can target, bla bla bla. But, when every sansha is dead you have to put 255 units of lyavite in a can that is 80km away. You dont have logis, so a marauder uses its mjd to get there. First you must get your normal status, because you cant use mjd in bastion mode. Also, you cant do it in one jump because will overshoot the can by 20km and slowboating is not an option. So you do triangulation (or whatever) to get there in 2 mjd jumps. Meanwhile, the scimitar of mwd fleet started its burn towards the can in the last spawn, and its already there when the last sansha dies. The fleet alings to next site and the logi drops the ore. The marauder fleet is still in bastion mode when the mwd fleet lands in next site. And finally, the Nation Commander Outpost. Well, you think, my bastion marauder fleet is going to own you here, because there is no where to go. No cans, no towers to approach to, only 4 massive frigate spawns from everywhere in the room so everybody stands still in a NCO. And the race begins. MWD fleet targets and tries to kill as many sanshas as possible meanwhile bastion marauder fleet is still in transformation, they are so cool.... But the transformation ends and boom: 1 sansha get down, boom 2-¦ sansha, 3-¦ ,4-¦... every shoot of bastion marauder fleet is blapping a sansha frig, deleting 1/3 of the spawn. But the other 2/3 is already orbiting very close to you with mwd on at 1500m/s. Dont worry, we will use our webs to... oh wait! you dont have web bonus. Nevermind, nobody uses webs in contest because they boost our dps and the enemy fleet dps too. So we will blap that sansha with our superior tracking marauder bonus... oh wait! their vindicators have the same tracking bonus than our marauders and they also have 2 logistics with 6 faction tracking links that boost the other ships with 35% more tracking each. So yeah, you lose. Again. Next time play the thing before write a theorical opinion about it. Regards.
Yep, we'll see who loses. How much you wanna bet we see some maurder VG fleets? I just 2 or 3 thouand isk laying around somewhere. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2671
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:15:00 -
[1652] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here. i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused. Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this. I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions. I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes. current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies. So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)? What VGs are you flying in? No, you're simply looking for a reason to dislike the changes, the truth is that these new maruaders will probably lead to isk inflation as people discover what you can do with them. not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.
lower but BETTER applied DPS. For some reason people couldn't understand that exact same point when CCP changed the navy raven.
it's like history keeps repeating itself on this forum lol.
It's all good, I think things will turn out fine.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:26:00 -
[1653] - Quote
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:29:00 -
[1654] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Battle Cube wrote:not 2 ships when you are getting lower dps from each. And arties are rarely used in VGs
And you couldnt be further from the truth - i WANT to LOVE these changes, because i want to fly a vargur, i have vargurs on 4 toons and i wanted to train the rest into them, i want a reason to fly them.
There is actually a Vanguard fleet doctrine where you use Sensor boosted Arty Macheriels and only one Logi. The fleet focuses on OTAs and NMCs where things spawn out at long range and alphas them before they can get close. Not something for newbies since you have to coordinate damage a bit but pretty good.
trufax.
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:34:00 -
[1655] - Quote
Looks like what happened in that last big round of cap nerfbatmadness. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/ Cept this time the hulls are getting nerfed before any testing based player feedback of any kind, the (mini-dred nick name) is so apt its getting dred like nerfs before the mini-seige mod is tested in game. Nerfbat the drone bandwith and bay cap: check Nerfbat the Shield, Armor and or Hull hitpoints: check Nerfbat hull speed to match caps: check I might be the only one to see it this way. And if CCP will do that to the player base that worked to the top levels of ships eve has to offer then there is no real hope of this not being forced on the marauder class.
The Web bonus is what gave this class a "place" in incursions and made missioning a little less painful after the rat AI changes is going away why? Was it OverPowering eve? And I guess the rat faction battleships are in for their own time in the nerfbatting cage, prolly wont keep the vindicator's web bonus either.
This Bastion mod could be kool new content to the game and is the kind of stuff I want to see CCP working on. But why wipe out a ship class to bring it in game? Can't you make a new Micro Jumpy/baby-dred class of T2 BS? (Thank you for the notepad it saved this from a disco.) Is it that hard to make more new ship types in eve rather than transforming already exsting content? And unlike some types I am prety sure you dont have a vast amount of complants about the marauder class being over powered. If anything they needed and tweek here and there in the other direction (noctis like bonus for the utility highs and more sensor strength) IMHO.
after 80 some pages of posts I have to wounder how many are by accounts that have not even skilled to marauders? Are just trolling? And the massive amount of stats, perfomance reviews, mission tactics and fleet doctrone for a mod no player has even seen yet never mind tried in game. The heated aurguments over maby and might and what ifs is wild to me lol) Yes I like paladins. I am fired up over this. Think this is bad? Why do I have the feeling what is comming for the rat faction BSs is going to blow the roof off this place? |

CueCue QQ
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:37:00 -
[1656] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
Can we do this then? Or maybe make the Bastion module scripted so we can have either the tanked version with damage projection, or the DPS version with a loss of tracking, and not giving the tank bonuses? |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5747
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:41:00 -
[1657] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range And have you taken into account the time you spend moving into position? That's time spent not applying optimal DPS. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:49:00 -
[1658] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range And have you taken into account the time you spend moving into position? That's time spent not applying optimal DPS.
generally speaking, you arent moving into optimal, you are staying in optimal. That is to say, you move once at the beginning, then keep at range.
And a ship that has to stay still is still going to be losing dps when the OTHER party moves.... |

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
1176
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:50:00 -
[1659] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.
So Armour fleets are screwed out of Vanguards the only place where they have an advantage ( andonly in NCO's to boot)? Why does CCP hate Armour? An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:52:00 -
[1660] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE. So Armour fleets are screwed out of Vanguards the only place where they have an advantage ( andonly in NCO's to boot)? Why does CCP hate Armour?
well... the reason armor isnt as popular is because armor tank is in low slot, same place where you get damage boosts, and incursions especially are all about higher dps and minimal tank. Its not really ccp hating armor, its just inherent in the mods unless they made midslot damage mods, tracking computers can only do so much |
|

CEALAlatriste
Academia Hispana de Pilotos Universidad Nuwen
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:54:00 -
[1661] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Yep, we'll see who loses. How much you wanna bet we see some maurder VG fleets? I just 2 or 3 thouand isk laying around somewhere.
I dont have to, im already winning. That MWD pirate hull VG fleet is real, and the best all around VG fleet you can get. The bastion marauder VG fleet is just an idea, for now.
Anyways, after all that explanation i did, why do you think your bastion marauder fleet is as good as or better than mwd pirate hull fleet? I would like something more than "we'll see who loses"
Because i asked myself and:
- -+will they have more dps than us? em... no. I dont care about projected dps if i have more and always shoot in optimal range. - -+will they have more tracking than us? em..... no. We have the same bonus (vindi) and logis with faction tracking links. - -+will they have web bonus as us? em.... no - -+are they more mobile than us? em.... no. In normal mode are slower and in bastion mode dont move. MJD overshoot them out of grid or takes 2 or 3 micro jumps to get in place. - -+can they deploy more drone power than us? em... no. Their drone bay its smaller and cant deploy sentries in NCO - -+why do they think they can win a contest? I dont know.
Regards. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 03:59:00 -
[1662] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Yep, we'll see who loses. How much you wanna bet we see some maurder VG fleets? I just 2 or 3 thouand isk laying around somewhere. I dont have to, im already winning. That MWD pirate hull VG fleet is real, and the best all around VG fleet you can get. The bastion marauder VG fleet is just an idea, for now. Anyways, after all that explanation i did, why do you think your bastion marauder fleet is as good as or better than mwd pirate hull fleet? I would like something more than "we'll see who loses" Because i asked myself and: - -+will they have more dps than us? em... no. I dont care about projected dps if i have more and always shoot in optimal range. - -+will they have more tracking than us? em..... no. We have the same bonus (vindi) and logis with faction tracking links. - -+will they have web bonus as us? em.... no - -+are they more mobile than us? em.... no. In normal mode are slower and in bastion mode dont move. MJD overshoot them out of grid or takes 2 or 3 micro jumps to get in place. - -+can they deploy more drone power than us? em... no. Their drone bay its smaller and cant deploy sentries in NCO - -+why do they think they can win a contest? I dont know. Regards.
Well they do have 1 thing going for them: They wouldnt have to move during the site. So i guess it would be easier because they dont have to move? Thats the only advantage i see |

CEALAlatriste
Academia Hispana de Pilotos Universidad Nuwen
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:04:00 -
[1663] - Quote
but they HAVE TO move in a NMC or they'll never finish the site without logi to carry on the ore.... and in ASS and HQ bastion marauders are useless because cant get RR, i dont think they can tank full room aggro TCRC |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:04:00 -
[1664] - Quote
marauder is a pve ship first and pvp second. it was designed to do well in pve content. so mayebe it will be easier on the dev if you just let them do what is best instead of trying to make the marauder do both pvp and pve. We have enough BS to do PVP having one more or less wouldnt make much of a difference. Eve need both pvp and pve. with out pve, all the pvp is meaningless. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5747
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:07:00 -
[1665] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:generally speaking, you arent moving into optimal, you are staying in optimal. That is to say, you move once at the beginning, then keep at range.
And a ship that has to stay still is still going to be losing dps when the OTHER party moves.... I take it you've never tried running a sanctum... My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:11:00 -
[1666] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Battle Cube wrote:generally speaking, you arent moving into optimal, you are staying in optimal. That is to say, you move once at the beginning, then keep at range.
And a ship that has to stay still is still going to be losing dps when the OTHER party moves.... I take it you've never tried running a sanctum...
you would be correct. I dont claim to know the proper way to do everything XD Thats why i said generally.
Its just that people seem to be claiming that better projection is ALLWAYS better dps, when in reality, that is Often not the case. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
90
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:24:00 -
[1667] - Quote
CueCue QQ wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE. Can we do this then? Or maybe make the Bastion module scripted so we can have either the tanked version with damage projection, or the DPS version with a loss of tracking, and not giving the tank bonuses?
You missed the bit where this is supposed to be a PvE focused ship, not "Dread-Blap Junior".
DarthNefarius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE. So Armour Maurder fleets are screwed out of Vanguards the only place where they have an advantage ( and only in NCO's to boot)? Why does CCP hate Armour?
There's that bit where he says "probably too OP for PvE" meaning it's probably going to change. |

Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din
215
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:26:00 -
[1668] - Quote
To comment on the use of the new marauders in vanguard sites.
Last time I did incursions was somewhere around a year to a year and a half ago. That being said, the basic numbers haven't really changed. A vanguard site puts out somewhere between 2000 and 2500dps in OTA's, and a fairly negligible amount in either of the others comparatively. In case you aren't aware, some people have already done vanguard sites in self-tanked vargurs - you just need to hit around 2k dps tanked. And this was before ASB's were added too. Yes, those ships did have to make a few sacrifices to accomplish that, and in the current meta of blitz fleets, they are no longer particularly viable.
Now we add the bastion module. If we have a good offgrid booster (if you don't, you shouldn't be flying multi-billion isk ships in an incursion), a vargur right now with a damage control, 2 CN invulns, a t2 boost amp, and a t2 large shield booster can already hit 1k dps tanked. Note, you can still add a crystal set to this, upgrade the booster, or upgrade the boost amp. Add the bastion module on top of this. We get a 30% increase in resists, which amounts to about the same as adding in a crystal set - a low grade at least. And then add another 100% to repair amount. So our 1k dps tank just jumped to 2500-3k. So now you can possibly tank a vanguard site with a single t2 large booster, and not too much in the way of bling for a vanguard marauder. The only worry is cap - but you can put cap transfers in the highs, and the bastion mod only lasts for a minute, so if you start running low on cap, pop on out, and buddy up with someone else, or just pop on out and let your logi's top up your cap a bit.
So yes, these things will be totally viable for vanguard sites. Less so for assaults/HQ's, though they may still be potentially viable for assaults with a local tank. Its a bit up for debate whether or not their damage application will make them worthwhile, but I'm sure that someone will experiment with that. And it will probably be totally viable to run with 2x cap transfers and 1x RR in the highs, and if you get a fleet of them together you can probably leave the logi's at home. Or if you aren't too fond of the bastion mod, you can run 2x cap transfer and 1-2x RR and just spidertank. This would allow you to put out a 10man fleet of 1000dps BS's, or an 8man BS fleet with 2 web loki's/bhaals/whatever for the damage application.
As for the Armor side of things... that will be a bit trickier as armor reps tend to be a bit weaker than shield, as well as having lower resists to work with. However, right now you can get a kronos that can selftank for 647dps against omni-damage, if you have a good fleet booster, while keeping 3 damage mods, and using a t2 rep. The bastion mod should bump that up to 1800ish dps tanked. Oh, and local tanks are getting boosted by about 15% - so that bumps it up to around 2100dps tanked. So it will be viable, if a little bit harder to pull off than a shield fit. But this would allow you to use either a kronos or a paladin for this, and both will have excellent damage projection.
TLDR: Solo tanking vanguards will totally be viable without excessive need for bling. Viability and usefulness of these is less certain |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
90
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:35:00 -
[1669] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:you would be correct. I dont claim to know the proper way to do everything XD Thats why i said generally.
Its just that people seem to be claiming that better projection is ALLWAYS better dps, when in reality, that is Often not the case.
Often is not never and you can get often up to "almost always" when you have a very deterministic system like a mission pocket to work with and a Micro Jump Drive. A lot of mission DPS gets lost to tracking and falloff, especially against smaller targets which means this is going to help a fair bit. |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:36:00 -
[1670] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:People are complaining about the wrong thing here. The main issue with these ships is in the areas where the bastion module are actually really good (lowsec L5 and nullsec) it just leaves you too vulnerable.
If you are left alone in nullsec anoms, the ISK/hour from these things is vastly superior to any other ship. This is because they let you loot and salvage the entire anomaly while you're running it. You don't need to come back in a noctis. You have 95% of the DPS of the pirate battleship that was getting you 40-50m ticks before, only now, in the same timeframe you were running the anoms before, you get all the loot and salvage as well. That probably close to doubles your income.
If you scan down a fleet staging point or a 10/10, you don't have to **** around with a pathetic-DPS HML Tengu and constant warpouts. This thing goes in, face tanks the entire final room, pew pews down the overseer structure and gets out in a few minutes.
In wormholes it's even better, even a C3 will easily provide >250m/hour as long as you have anoms to run. You're not screwing around with a sig-tanking T3, you're vaporizing it with a BS that does double the DPS and salvages everything too at the same time.
So from that perspective, he's absolutely right. These things absolute crap all over pirate BS for solo PvE. The problem is, if a lot of people start doing this, that's going to bring the gankers out in force and since it locks you in place there's absolutely jack **** you can do to protect yourself. No matter how good your intel, you're going to get a dozen stealth bombers covert cynoed on top of you before you can do anything, or a bunch of cloaky T3s are going to come molest you in your wormhole. This is by design and it could work as intended... But it wouldnt.
Because I can do all of that in a carrier, and do it better. Much better. And dont be a sitting duck.
As a bonus, I can do a hell lot of other things in my carrier. Like move a house, repair structures, be a part of slowcat fleet. So what is the point of marauders once again? Not sold to me. |
|

Thorvik
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:46:00 -
[1671] - Quote
+1
I love where this is going!
|

Jalequin
StarHunt The Explicit Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:53:00 -
[1672] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:...As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem. The Target Painter cycle is annoying in general. Make this change ahead of time for Odyssey 1.1.01 Mass Tests Videos: http://youtu.be/oPs7ZYWVIOA - June 14th http://youtu.be/8awhx-iVO4E --áMay 16th http://youtu.be/0EVS3oOCRcw?t=48s --áApril 11th |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:54:00 -
[1673] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:please continue to rat in a carrier, it's the best ratting ship ever
(and you'll certainly be able to fight off the odd lone stealth bomber or recon, so don't worry, you're in a capital) Sure I can tank them. With my POS field. Can you do the same in your sieged marauder? |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
363
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 04:57:00 -
[1674] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:marauder is a pve ship first and pvp second. it was designed to do well in pve content. so mayebe it will be easier on the dev if you just let them do what is best instead of trying to make the marauder do both pvp and pve. We have enough BS to do PVP having one more or less wouldnt make much of a difference. Eve need both pvp and pve. with out pve, all the pvp is meaningless.
Suggestion: Let's make PvE not so horrifically different from PvP.
It's this split that's preventing the Marauder from being a valid ship with a unique and interesting specialization that is fun to play. |

nahjustwarpin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
90
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 05:02:00 -
[1675] - Quote
omg this ship will be so OP because it can tank first spawn in vanguard!
I think most people will just sell their marauders after the rebalancing nerf or just leave it as hangar queen.
83 pages of mostly post about a fail attempt at rebalancing but CCP will just do what they want because hey, it tanks so much! |

Tepalica
ACME-INC
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 05:55:00 -
[1676] - Quote
Oh god....this thread, the way it started, will have at least 5 rounds and 2000 pages of posts before the winter expansion hits...so let's not waste any time, shall we?
CCP Ytterbium....
This is gonna sound mean but, your post feels to me like a used car salesman trying to sell something crappy....
Don't get me wrong, the numbers you provided us by doing some testing are quite valuable so we can have some point of reference when talking about damage and damage application, but you have missed the point with your testing!
PvE...
The fact that a bastion fitted marauder can plow through a L4 mission is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT! Why? Because there are only 3 types of players in EvE who do L4 missions with marauders:
a) people who do it for the lolz b) people who are too afraid to leave hisec c) people who don't know any better
Also, testing that all out tank fitted Vargur you mentioned with the deadspace X-L shield booster in incursion vanguards is also irrelevant because in order to make an X-L shield booster stable, you had to massacre the fit with cap recharging modules and that is hardly the fit used by incursion runners - furthermore, it also shows that active shield tanking is still overpowered compared to active armor tanking even with the 15% buff that armor repairers gained, not to mention all the PvP brainstorming about dual X-L ASB setups which can never be challenged by any AAR setups because AAR modules require cap to work at all!
So regardless of any cap boosters fitted on an armor ship, the AAR can still stop functioning under heavy neuting unlike the ASB which draws it's juice directly from the cap boosters, not to mention this funny X-L shield booster module concept which is neither a battleship class module, but neither a capital module, but still usable for crazy effects even on ships smaller than a battleship - truth be told, this is more of a active shield tanking vs active armor tanking issue, but it's there!
So let's think about low/null/WH PvE applications of these new siege marauders....
Low/nullsec missions....sure if you don't have to go to a nearby system because due to the awsome agility of the ships (sarcasm) you will probably get shafted by a simple gate camp with a scram....and once you are tackled, you are going to die horribly and no, the siege mode will not save you because of the way ganking works today - if you are ganking something, you know what you are ganking, you know how to kill it and if you know you can't, you don't even try (the latter option is an extremely rare case).
Every half decent gang has at least one dedicated neuting platform which will be the end of you very quickly and more often than not, gangs are not even looking for you - instead they are waiting on a titan/black ops ship with only a single recon/bomber flying around looking for hot drop targets...
Nullsec belt ratting and anomalies....with a one minute siege cycle, the best thing you can do is warp to a belt/anomaly, immediately cycle the MJD once to get 100km above or beneath the warp in point, deploy siege mode, snipe the NPCs and pray that your siege cycle has not just started when a hostile entered the system - especially with the odyssey's awsome new feature where all anomalies are available for warp-in as soon as you enter a system!
Marauders and all other T1/faction battleships except the Vindicator (handles like a BC) and Machariel (handles like a cruiser) were actually ill-advised for belt ratting and anomalies even before the Odyssey patch because they were too slow to align even if you kept a watchful eye on local, so having a minute timer of being locked in place is a great way to get killed without even a realistic chance of escaping.
Have I mentioned that sniping at 100km in hopes of not getting caught by a random recon/interceptor ship cruising about makes salvaging and looting impossible because of the crap range/bonus of tractor beams?
WH space...do you people have any idea how suddenly death can come in WH space? People who are doing simple gas mining in Ventures that require less than 3 seconds to align and warp are getting jumped and killed without knowing what hit them, but sure, let's bring 3 bil isk sieged pinatas into that scenario!!!
Small gang of marauders who are "marauding" their way through WH space, perhaps pillaging C2, 3 and 4 sleeper sites will be not only faction/deadspace fitted, but will also contain a significant amount of sleeper loot and salvage - no reason for anyone to gank them at all, right? I am sure their awsome radical-amazing new siege modules will save them against a tech3 fleet or a sieged dread which will be dropped onto them just for the fun of testing their tanking power...
As for the C5 and 6 organized sleeper bashing, marauders will have no place there because sleepers do some heavy neuting, and these high end sleeper sites are being done via capital escalations to make the most isk out of it, and trust me, no marauder, sieged or not, wants to get targeted by 14+ sleepless guardians, neuted almost instantly and blown to smithereens a few seconds after that.
Incursions...right now we have a whole bunch of whiners and tinfoil hat bums with conspiracy theories how all these changes are actually meant to destroy their hard earned face rolling of incursion vanguards not just with these proposed marauder changes, but also with the 1.1 Odyssey patch coming later today....they will adapt, and perhaps there will be less elitist single ship doctrine incursion fleets out there which is a good thing.
Man, what a wall of text...this ain't gonna fit in one post >.< |

Tepalica
ACME-INC
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 05:56:00 -
[1677] - Quote
I am not gonna say this siege marauder concept is completely bad, because it's an attempt to add something potentially fun to the game and perhaps add some PvP potential into a ship class that was previously useless for it.
As far as PvE goes, this new concept brings only pain and increased chances of getting blown up to the owner and very little benefit - L4 missions don't need more tank and the MJD bonus is really not necessary, The closest thing to this concept we have today are, naturally, dreads and their siege mode...
Keep in mind that dread are capital ships with a very healthy amount of buffer, so even when their siege mode self repairing cannot keep them together, they still have some time to run their self reps in the hopes that enemy numbers will decrease enough so that the remaining incoming damage is tankable (and even that fails more often than not in large engagements).
Also, dreads, being capital ships, have massive capacitors which can endure a certain amount of neuting without going empty instantly - none of these things can be said for marauders even with the extra resists this new bastion module would bring, the marauders simply don't have the buffer needed to last on the field where they are being fired at (god forbid that a dread turns it's guns towards a sieged immobile marauder) and let's forget about sniping sieged marauders in PvP, because sniping is currently only viable via hit and run tactics (tornado/naga) - one cycle of combat probes and your sniping has come to an end...
You say you've "created monsters" with these changes....
All you did here was take a hull that is terribly lacking and instead of fixing it and making it a T2 hull worthy of 1bil isk cost, you "reworked" the Paladin and Kronos a bit, finally fixed the damn powergrid issues on the Vargur, and you recycled the capital siege concept in a failed attempt to make these INSANELY skill intensive ships worthwhile!
The ONLY thing you managed to do here was allow hisec L4 mission runners to spend less isk on their tank!!!
Was it that hard to fix the damn sensor strength? Seriously? The ship HAS to be useless without going into siege mode?
Was it that hard to give them proper T2 resists? Marauders have less armor hp than tech1 combat battleships, I don't even want to mention navy battleships which can be bought at 40% price of a marauder...
You refuse to give this so called "bastion mode" a dps bonus, fine, let's stick to the whole "bastion" idea of extreme survivability....
Keep the current changes, but give marauders PROPER T2 resists and neuting immunity when in siege mode (you conveniently missed that when building this bastion module) so maybe, just MAYBE these T2 resists, neuting immunity and the resist/repair bonuses from the bastion mode will alow them to enter siege mode in PvP and live to tell the tale!
Sorry for this essay I wrote, I know it's big, but things needed to be said/explained! |

Crellion
Parental Control
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 06:02:00 -
[1678] - Quote
THE GOOD:
That you are actually doing something about the Marauders. That you engaged in creative thinking.
THE BAD:
That you did not jump to the obvious conclusion (same as all others in here) that the Bastion will need to provide capacitor immunity from neuts to be effective in any meaningful way.
THE UGLY:
Removing the web bonus from the Kronos and replacing with a bonus that applies to blasters is ********. Either give it optimal like the Paladin so it can use rails or if it is to use blasters leave the web bonus in. Are you proposing a vessel that will mjd 100kms away and once there will use blasters with optimal and falloff total of 35kms????? (Instead of say 25kms wothout the bonus)?????????????????????????????????????????????? Seriously whoever thought of that needs to talk to the mirror for a bit. |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 06:24:00 -
[1679] - Quote
Tepalica wrote:Man, what a wall of text...this ain't gonna fit in one post >.< Indeed, it didnt fit. But the point is right. Marauders will have a very niche application of running lvl4's. Not PVE kings for sure, leave alone any PVP role (outside of AT playground). But they say T2 ship must be specialized, so here we go - LEVEL4 MONSTER! Woo-hoo! |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 06:31:00 -
[1680] - Quote
That being said, the situation can be fixed quite easily. Just make bastion module function like a cloak. I.e. you can de-activate it any time, but cannot switch it on again instantly, it takes a cooldown. THAT would be the interesting gameplay - both for PVE and PVP. |
|

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3313
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 06:40:00 -
[1681] - Quote
So many badposters
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 06:48:00 -
[1682] - Quote
It's funny to read where people state that CCP is holding a gun to their heads and force them to go in to siege on their marauders.
Because you are unable NOT to use the bastion module right?
so shut up you ****** carebears |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:18:00 -
[1683] - Quote
CueCue QQ wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE. Can we do this then? Or maybe make the Bastion module scripted so we can have either the tanked version with damage projection, or the DPS version with a loss of tracking, and not giving the tank bonuses?
Give this a guy a donut. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
691
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:19:00 -
[1684] - Quote
A number of your reasonings seem based on the issues with battleships as a whole and/or current usage with a bit of misapplication of usage information which was aimed at individual stated concerns and stating capabilities as suggested usage cases by CCP.
One important counter point regarding PvE is the idea that increased defensive capabilities on the hull will translate in usage to more gank based fittings with better range of application than their pirate counterparts. With the MJD focus you may well eliminate the need for any tank based fitting save the bare minimums.
Depending on actual results we could wind up with ships that make speed and DPS differences irrelevant since they can reach what they need to from wherever they are and can instantly be where they need to be more often. |

Ele Rebellion
Underground Coalition Stash Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:24:00 -
[1685] - Quote
I have major concerns about both the PvP and PvE capabilities that the Bastion Marauders will have... I'm going to use the Kronos here as example since it is the one I'm most familiar with.
First off, The damage output seems to be lacking. With max skills there is a 25% bonus plus the 100% role bonus. Apply that to 4 hybrids and you have the equivalent of 10 (4 x 1.25 x 2 = 10). Without any bonus from the bastion module the dps will still still fall behind the Vindicator (8 x 1.375 = 11) .. I know you said you don't want its damage output to surpass the Vindicator, but it wouldn't make sense to me for a ship that goes into a special mode to still fall behind in damage output... Now that with the price comparable to a Vindicator and the fact that it can't receive remote reps, why would anyone take these in a fleet?
Another issue. removing the stasis web bonus and nerfing the drone bay and bandwidth eliminates its use in most level 4 security missions. Reason being is how is this thing supposed to hit a frigate? I thought well just MJD away and then shoot frigates from distance.. but then as I was running a level 4 in my SNI it occured to me.. What would a Kronos pilot do if they were fighting a frigate that had them scrammed and was low on drones. (since to use MJD the Kronos would have to exit Bastion and spool the MJD; making it susceptible to EW) ..without a web bonus it would be near impossible to hit a fast moving frigate.
So what would the use of one of these really be? I can't seem to find one. Some people have suggested POS Bashing in High Sec or SubCap WHs, but wouldn't a buffer shield tanked Vindicator with dps fit (and better drone bay/bandwidth) be more effective with a T2 Logistics cruiser behind it? (I've never seen anyone go POS Bash solo.)
The advantages are of the bastion are Range, EW Immunity, Resist, and self Reps.
Only thing I see that is really going to benefit from this is the Golems. They are keeping their target painter bonus, shield rep bonus, and explosion velocity bonus. Plus gaining the bastion bonuses. Currently my SNI with good skills and a couple implants, Gist X-Type XL shield booster and Gist X-Type XL boost amplifier reps around 1200 every 4 seconds.. those two modules on a Golem in bastion mode with its bonuses (not including the 1.1 10% bonus to that repper) is going to be sitting around 3,500 every 4 secs and will have the range to use Torps in PvE. (not to mention that the 3,500 every 4 seconds only cost around 180GJ per cycle on max skills so it will be EASILY cap stable)
The Paladin is in the same boat as the Kronos. Its loosing stasis web bonuses for more range that it don't really need, and its still lacking in reps and cap (since armor repping ships need 2 reps to even come close to competing with 1 shield rep)
The Vargur is in the middle. Its going to have the Golem's defence and reps, but its still going to have the issues of hitting smaller targets.
CCP, Please take this one back to the drawing boards.. I really want to see the Marauders rebalanced (and I love the idea of a Mini-Dread), but I feel that this isn't the way to do it.
Oh, and almost forgot... Why the HP nerfs to Shields and Armor but bonus to Hull? These things already have WAY less hp than the pirate faction ships... and why does the Kronos have 8600 Hull HP but only 7200 Armor HP if its supposed to be an Armor tank? (Armor repair bonuses) |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:30:00 -
[1686] - Quote
too many negative posters. I am excited that marauder will be so much different than all the other BS. Even if it suck i dont care , at least it is something new |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
691
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:34:00 -
[1687] - Quote
Ele Rebellion wrote:Another issue. removing the stasis web bonus and nerfing the drone bay and bandwidth eliminates its use in most level 4 security missions. Reason being is how is this thing supposed to hit a frigate? I thought well just MJD away and then shoot frigates from distance.. but then as I was running a level 4 in my SNI it occured to me.. What would a Kronos pilot do if they were fighting a frigate that had them scrammed and was low on drones. (since to use MJD the Kronos would have to exit Bastion and spool the MJD; making it susceptible to EW) ..without a web bonus it would be near impossible to hit a fast moving frigate. EW wouldn't stop the spool up of the MJD unless it's a scram and at last check rats don't use scrams, just normal points, so even with the EW immunity gone it seems like it shouldn't be an issue. |

marVLs
390
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:53:00 -
[1688] - Quote
Problem is that this concept don't fit anywhere. Marauders are T2 ships so should be specialized, but Bastion modules won't give anything useful.
I mean in LVL4 RNI will overall be better than them in damage, damage projection, and time. Same with some others navy and pirate ships. No need for more tank.
Incursions - still better pirate ships.
PVP - still useless
WH - too risky and not cost effective to immobilize over 1.5bil ship for 1min
Low/Null - same as above
Srly CCP is afraid to not make them OP but they won't be, they still forget that their costs does not encourage to use them often, no mather what it will be better to bring couple of t1 ships instead of marauder for the same price.
Make them the biggest damage subcaps, so they will be kings of some PVE and useful in PVP.
|

Crellion
Parental Control
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 08:11:00 -
[1689] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Problem is that this concept don't fit anywhere. Marauders are T2 ships so should be specialized, but Bastion modules won't give anything useful.
I mean in LVL4 RNI will overall be better than them in damage, damage projection, and time. Same with some others navy and pirate ships. No need for more tank.
Incursions - still better pirate ships.
PVP - still useless
WH - too risky and not cost effective to immobilize over 1.5bil ship for 1min
Low/Null - same as above
Srly CCP is afraid to not make them OP but they won't be, they still forget that their costs does not encourage to use them often, no mather what it will be better to bring couple of t1 ships instead of marauder for the same price.
Make them the biggest damage subcaps, so they will be kings of some PVE and useful in PVP.
Pretty much, either this or immunity to neuts while in Bastion... otherwise dont bother... |

Vidar Kentoran
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 08:45:00 -
[1690] - Quote
If you're going to persist with this Bastion mode stuff, please at least lower the cycle time to something that at least has the POTENTIAL to survive in nullsec and lowsec, like, say, 15 seconds. I mean, 15 is still probably too risky, but at least it makes it conceivable.
You can't use this mode in pve anywhere except highsec missions because it makes you into a sitting duck, 60 seconds or even 45 seconds is around 5x as much time as is needed to drop a carrier on you or just lock you down.
I dunno what the point of discussing it in the context of pvp is, the price/performance of one of these ships in pvp is absolutely awful compared to a dread or carrier. There's no real point in fielding them except for the lulz, they're trivially neuted to death and Bastion mode is just 'well guess what im a sniping bs that is literally incapable of warping out' for 1B+. |
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 08:46:00 -
[1691] - Quote
Well, this winter's gonna get pretty cold from the looks of it. Marauders' base stats getting nerfed/useful bonuses getting removed and given a mod that makes them minute-long bulls-eyes and gives them little to offer in PVE outside of...wait for it...you guessed it, MOAR TANK. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
111
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:00:00 -
[1692] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:you did a pretty great job at not making any T2 ship better than T1, tbh TBH, if they did, why would you fly T1 ships anymore? You want tiers back?
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Sorry, the problem is the "bastion" cycle time. 60 seconds are too long for many things you can do. I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button. |

SOL Ranger
Jaeger Squadron
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:06:00 -
[1693] - Quote
Crellion wrote:... or immunity to neuts while in Bastion...
Immunities are only acknowledgements that the mechanics they're trying to avoid are too powerful in general/special circumstance in the first place and to counter them they in that situation make them useless, which is an even worse idea.
Immunities quite literally are anti-balance solutions, this includes the E-war immunity on the 'Bastion'. Mechanics always need granularity even when you're supposed to have an advantage, Immunity has none, it is absolute and reduces complexity; Even if some E-war is based strictly on RNG I find those mechanics would still be preferred over outright immunities, although not by much.
My suggestions: A significant sensor strength increase would be more fitting on the 'Bastion' towards fighting off E-war than the proposed immunity.
A passive 50% reduction to the effectiveness of Neuts/NOS on the Marauder hulls rather than the immunity you proposed.
|

marVLs
392
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:15:00 -
[1694] - Quote
Pssst... hey kid... do You want module that gives you over 9000! reps when You need only 500?
Here You go ... totally useless  |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3315
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:20:00 -
[1695] - Quote
Yeah no more than 500hp/s is ever needed in any PVE
Source: anon hisec scrub
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Shade Millith
Bite Me inc Bitten.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:22:00 -
[1696] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:omg this ship will be so OP because it can tank first spawn in vanguard!
I think most people will just sell their marauders after the rebalancing nerf or just leave it as hangar queen.
83 pages and mostly posts about a fail attempt. CCP will just do what they want because hey, it tanks so much!
Why would a person that owns a Golem or a Vargur stop using them? Without the Bastian mode, they're pretty much the same ship they were before.
Sobaan Tali wrote:Well, this winter's gonna get pretty cold from the looks of it. Marauders' base stats getting nerfed/useful bonuses getting removed and given a mod that makes them minute-long bulls-eyes and gives them little to offer in PVE outside of...wait for it...you guessed it, MOAR TANK.
More tank means less slots used for tank. Less slots used for tank mean more slots used for damage application.
marVLs wrote: I mean in LVL4 RNI will overall be better than them in damage, damage projection, and time. Same with some others navy and pirate ships. No need for more tank.
With 30% more resists, and 100% boost amount out of the bastian, a Golem is going to be able to use a 2 midslot tank, and still get 600 - 700 DPS active tank. That leaves it with up to 5 midslots free for bonused target painters. Most likely 4, because a MJD would be very useful for moving around the field.
I don't know how many your standard RNI would use, but I doubt it's more than two. Those TPs are going to make the Golem is going to be hitting cruisers a hell of a lot harder. And will have the extra 25% range bonus
TL:DR A tank bonus gives you more damage application! |

Shade Millith
Bite Me inc Bitten.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:23:00 -
[1697] - Quote
EDIT : Pushed wrong button. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
692
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:28:00 -
[1698] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Pssst... hey kid... do You want module that gives you over 9000! reps when You need only 500? Here You go  ... totally useless  If you are using the same tank fitting with the mod as you are without, you aren't a good judge of what is useless and what isn't. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:29:00 -
[1699] - Quote
please at least give the ship normal t2 resists, and then reduce the bonus from the bastion module so the non-bastion mode will be more balanced.... |

baltec1
Bat Country
7791
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:30:00 -
[1700] - Quote
Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.
|
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:32:00 -
[1701] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.
you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'. |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:34:00 -
[1702] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button. Since when did they become IWIN? They tank better? Alright, but why do I need more tank? Tanking NPCs was not a challenge since... ever, and now we've got MJD, so you can always save your butt if something goes wrong. Hell, I was running angel havens in a freaking Hurricane! And a Dominix can just sit nicely 100 km away, popping up everything. If I bring a carrier - I can wreck havoc and then salvage with ghost-rided Noctis.
So once again - what's the advantage of Marauders? In bastion or not, they're just inferior. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7791
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:35:00 -
[1703] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.
you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'.
I have and what they are demanding is indeed as unbalanced as you can get. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:36:00 -
[1704] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Crellion wrote:... or immunity to neuts while in Bastion... Immunities are only acknowledgements that the mechanics they're trying to avoid are too powerful in general/special circumstance in the first place and to counter them they in that situation make them useless, which is an even worse idea. Immunities quite literally are anti-balance solutions, this includes the E-war immunity on the 'Bastion'. Mechanics always need granularity even when you're supposed to have an advantage, Immunity has none, it is absolute and reduces complexity; Even if some E-war is based strictly on RNG I find those mechanics would still be preferred over outright immunities, although not by much. My suggestions: A significant sensor strength increase would be more fitting on the 'Bastion' towards fighting off E-war than the proposed immunity.
A passive 50% reduction to the effectiveness of Neuts/NOS on the Marauder hulls rather than the immunity you proposed.
How about something similar to the capacitor battery? Reflect the neut back at say 50% and NoS is negated by 50%
i also agree the boosting of ewar defence rather than immunity makes more sense, thinking about it in terms of the golem, why would an e-war immune ship get a bonus to an e-war mod (TP) no other deployable ship in the game can do this so i think they need to be in keeping with that.
I think that a 50% speed decrease and 5x mass multiplier would also be better otherwise if you use these ships in solo pvp, or a small fleet made up of these ships you have to fit a scram and web otherwise everything will escape from you but the armour based ones are a bit lacking on midslots for this, i think the moros + paladin need an extra mid and the vargur and golem need an extra low (cpu mod to fit the ASB) i think it would be better with the 7 highs ( 4 guns 2 utility 1 bastion) which means carebears can still fit a tractor beam and salavager |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:38:00 -
[1705] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Battle Cube wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.
you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'. I have and what they are demanding is indeed as unbalanced as you can get. So would you call pirate faction Unbalanced because it is straight up Better than t1? Because part of balance is the isk cost..... and so is the sp requirement. Even if people were screaming for marauders to be THE BEST battleships in ALL TERMS, it would not be unreasonable (due to its massive dual-cost). Poeple are asking for a ship that is not Worse in all scenarios VS pirate faction. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7791
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:43:00 -
[1706] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: So would you call pirate faction Unbalanced because it is straight up Better than t1? Because part of balance is the isk cost..... and so is the sp requirement. Even if people were screaming for marauders to be THE BEST battleships in ALL TERMS, it would not be unreasonable (due to its massive dual-cost). Poeple are asking for a ship that is not Worse in all scenarios VS pirate faction.
Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf. |

Shade Millith
Bite Me inc Bitten.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:45:00 -
[1707] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:hmskrecik wrote:I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button. Since when did they become IWIN? They tank better? Alright, but why do I need more tank? Tanking NPCs was not a challenge since... ever, and now we've got MJD, so you can always save your butt if something goes wrong. Hell, I was running angel havens in a freaking Hurricane! And a Dominix can just sit nicely 100 km away, popping up everything. If I bring a carrier - I can wreck havoc and then salvage with ghost-rided Noctis. So once again - what's the advantage of Marauders? In bastion or not, they're just inferior.
I'm gonna set up a macro to just spam this. Because it seems like I need to.
A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:46:00 -
[1708] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Battle Cube wrote: So would you call pirate faction Unbalanced because it is straight up Better than t1? Because part of balance is the isk cost..... and so is the sp requirement. Even if people were screaming for marauders to be THE BEST battleships in ALL TERMS, it would not be unreasonable (due to its massive dual-cost). Poeple are asking for a ship that is not Worse in all scenarios VS pirate faction.
Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf.
Ah, thats why frigates cost the same as battleships, and why faction costs the same as t1.
Man, why havent i been buying all estimels? Probably because i have too many titans. I should probably trash those, they are worthless. |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:47:00 -
[1709] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Isk cost in not part of the balance equation. Pirate battleships will be getting teircided against the t1 battleships just like the frigates have been. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf. :facepalm: Have a look at this: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:49:00 -
[1710] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Skia Aumer wrote:hmskrecik wrote:I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button. Since when did they become IWIN? They tank better? Alright, but why do I need more tank? Tanking NPCs was not a challenge since... ever, and now we've got MJD, so you can always save your butt if something goes wrong. Hell, I was running angel havens in a freaking Hurricane! And a Dominix can just sit nicely 100 km away, popping up everything. If I bring a carrier - I can wreck havoc and then salvage with ghost-rided Noctis. So once again - what's the advantage of Marauders? In bastion or not, they're just inferior. I'm gonna set up a macro to just spam this. Because it seems like I need to. A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.
Meh.... in a shield fit the most of the lows you were using was a damage control, and freeing mids just gets you more damage application but not real damage. So less tank slots on a shield fit marauder just means a little more range on its already high bonuses in bastion mode - so what does this mean? Very little increased dps. I mean, before hand i was using rigs for dps and all lows but maybe 2 on my vargur.
Additionally if you fit low tank high dps counting on bastion to get your tank to an acceptable level, then when you are not in bastion you are very weak. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7791
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:53:00 -
[1711] - Quote
And?
They are still going to be balanced vs t1 ships. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:54:00 -
[1712] - Quote
The problem is the Bastion mode. You can't use it, where you want it badly. 60 seconds cycle time! In WH with no local and people that can scan, loot piniata. In o.o and low sec say thank you titan and BO bridge. In high sec, with nerfed ehp, i would never use them again, maybe to be the lol on a killboard...
For what in hell you need so much tank? incursions runs better with dedicated fleet Pirate BS or VG with fast locking and fast moving ships. In lvl4 you can easily approach the next gate, when all shot down jum instandly in the next pocket, for what the hell i need an MJD? No matter what you think, i think the majority of the real users don't want them this way.
Fix scan res, maybe a MWD bonus, fix sensor strenght and don't lower drone bandwith, maybe some people use salvage drones? My mates fly often in little fleets with rr in L4s, the noob that flyes with me, can't make anything i have with bastion superior range and he? If he moves, i can't rep him anymore (utilityslots). I don't like the idea.
Please, forget the bastion idea, else make it useful. Shut on/off mechanik, no cycle time. Make scripts for the bastion modul, one to make the class viable for different use PVE/PVP. Don't balance marauders for the AT. In PVP you are the sitting duck, waiting to be bombd or else alphad from a small ABC group.
I see in this Modul new ways to collapse WHs, to bump freighter or orcas by fair more strenght ever known, this going to be worst. in future you need a bumping marauder for station games, now you can bump caps, yay! sorry, this is what i see this for the bastion thing.... |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3315
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:54:00 -
[1713] - Quote
Damage application & projection = real damage
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:56:00 -
[1714] - Quote
Proposition to fix planned marauders:
1) Remove 7,5 repair amount bonus
2) Reduce bastion repair amount bonus from 100% to 50%.
2) Add 4% resist (amarr, cldari) or 7,5 % hp (gallente, minmatar) bonus
3) Rise base armour/shield resists 10-15%.
Problem solved.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:58:00 -
[1715] - Quote
i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.
Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\
make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know |

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:03:00 -
[1716] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3. You can only fit 3 damage mods and 3 application mods without being stacking penalized severely. They fit well on pitate BS already. I see your point, indeed you can save some slots. But for PVE there is not much you can add in there, and using Marauders for PVP is ridiculously stupid. |

marVLs
392
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:04:00 -
[1717] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote: A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.
In theory yes, practically nope.
In LVL4's RNI needs nothing more to buff damage and still will do missions faster because don't need to be immobilized.
In Incursions (shield HQ, that's biggest community): Paladin way worse than Nightmare. Kronos way worse than Vindi. Golem, could be used thanks to TP bonus and Cruise missile awesome buff, but no use of bastion, and still turrets > missiles in Incursions, so everyone will prefer another Vindi with web bonus, agility, and awesome DPS. Vargur? Better use mach, more mobility (vargur bastion will not hold those sites so no buff to range and tracking) |

baltec1
Bat Country
7791
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:07:00 -
[1718] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:and using Marauders for PVP is ridiculously stupid.
Not with these changes its not. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
293
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:09:00 -
[1719] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.
Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\
make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know
This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.

Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:11:00 -
[1720] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote:i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.
Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\
make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station. 
AWWWE YEEAAHH add in walk-in-ship, have a little bar, give us a house in there so we can buy furnature and play minecraft in our cabin |
|

Shade Millith
Bite Me inc Bitten.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:15:00 -
[1721] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: Meh.... in a shield fit the most of the lows you were using was a damage control, and freeing mids just gets you more damage application but not real damage. So less tank slots on a shield fit marauder just means a little more range on its already high bonuses in bastion mode - so what does this mean? Very little increased dps. I mean, before hand i was using rigs for dps and all lows but maybe 2 on my vargur. .
http://i.imgur.com/5xvLfzP.jpg
That one slot tank Vargur is going to get the same tank the 3 mid/1 low slot tank Vargur would get.
And that's not including the falloff bonus from the Bastion mod. |

Aganola
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:16:00 -
[1722] - Quote
[quote=CCP Ytterbium] stuff[/guote]
I can see, someone has been watching GUNDAM lately. This 'Bastion' module is an echo of Atrhun Zala's Aegis, nice nod, I like it... :-)
In all seriousness, the Marauders should be that: marauders, harassers, kings of dirty tricks and always a having gun under the table.
What most people do not realize is that CCP is afraid to boost these ships too much because of current 0.0. I mean, seriously think about it: let loose 250 of these buggers in a fleet and not even Titans will have a fighting chance to survive (guess you should not have had to remove their ability to target subcaps, eh?)
Still, the biggest winner of the current changes will be the Golem. And the biggest loser will be the Kronos.
I'd opt to include a SCRIPT into the bastion module: one for damage dealing and one for tanking. It can be run unscripted but then it will be not as specialized.
Like this:
Unscripted ~~~~~~~~~~ - +2% bonus to shield/armour/hull resistances per level of bastion skill (skillzz, yeah, we totally need that, ;-) no stacking penalty!) - +2% bonus to shield/armour/hull repairers per level - +2% bonus to large turret falloff/optimal and missile velocity per level - +2% bonus to tracking and explosion velocity per level - not immune to EW
Scripted: damage (battering ram) ~~~~~~~~~~ - +10% bonus to damage of weapons systems per level (no stacking penalty!) - +5% bonus to turret tracking and missile explosion velocity per level - NOT immune to EW (!) - can be remotely assisted
Scripted: tank (bastion) ~~~~~~~~~~ - +5% bonus to shield/armour/hull resistances per level (no stacking penalty!) - +20% of shield/armour/hull repair amount per level - Immune to all forms of EW (yes, including neut) - Cannot be remotely assisted (no energy transfer, no remote repairs, no tracking enhancers)
The rest is the same. (Read: immobile, mass x10, 10CPU/100PG, only one per Marauder, 60 sec cycle, cannot be deactivated before that, recieves flag, etc)
This way we have a heavy hitter OR a heavy tanker, but not both at the same time! You can do Incursions with the battering ram (damage script), or you can do 10/10s of level5s with the bastion (tank script).
Now, let us look at the ships:
PALADIN ~~~~~~~ Skill bonuses (Amarr): +2% bonus to capacitor capacity and recharge rate per level +5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Skill bonuses (Marauder): +5% bonus to repair amount, repair speed +5% bonus to range and velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
Shield/Armour/Hull: 6000/9000/7000
GOLEM ~~~~~ Skill bonuses (Caldari): +2% bonus to to cruise missile/torpedo velocity and cruise missile/torpedo explosion velocity per level +5% bonust to large missile damage per level
Skill bonuses (Marauder): +5% bonus to shield boost amount +5% bonus to range and effectiveness of target painters per level
Shield/Armour/Hull: 8100/6000/7000
KRONOS ~~~~~~ Skill bonuses (Gallente): +2% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking rate per level +5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per level
Skill bonuses (Marauder): +5% bonus to repair amount, repair speed of armour per level +10% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
Shield/Armour/Hull: 5900/7500/9000
VARGUR ~~~~~~ Skill bonuses (Minmatar): +2% bonus to large projectile turret falloff rate per level +5% bonus to large projectile turret damage per level
Skill bonuses (Marauder): +5% bonus to shield boost amount +5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters and range of stasis webifiers per level
Shield/Armour/Hull: 7500/6500/6400
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:16:00 -
[1723] - Quote
Marauder fleet boost bonuses, that would rock. Also what Aganola said.
anyway that bastion stuff and whatnot changes atm you are planning are just bad If you want us to use marauders then they better be worth 1b+
random ass vindicator can do 2.2k dps, costs 1b+... who the hell would buy marauder instead? |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:17:00 -
[1724] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Shade Millith wrote: A tank bonus gives you more damage application, because you're wasting less slots on tank that you could be using for target painters/tracking enhancers/damage mods!! Rather than using 4-5 slots for tank, you can drop it down to 2 or 3.
In theory yes, practically nope. In LVL4's RNI needs nothing more to buff damage and still will do missions faster because don't need to be immobilized. In Incursions (shield HQ, that's biggest community): Paladin way worse than Nightmare. Kronos way worse than Vindi. Golem, could be used thanks to TP bonus and Cruise missile awesome buff, but no use of bastion, and still turrets > missiles in Incursions, so everyone will prefer another Vindi with web bonus, agility, and awesome DPS. Vargur? Better use mach, more mobility (vargur bastion will not hold those sites so no buff to range and tracking)
Faction BS do more damage by the drones and are way faster with the MWD, so the new marauders are over tanked and hardly interesting compared her current iteration.
As for armor Incs the Paladin is at the same level with other faction BS(1 slot tanked NM is the better contest boat, mostly because the Paladin takes ages to get locks, Paladin is the better grind ship, because doesn't need support to take down frigs). The good capacitor, 90% web, extra utility high slots and T2 resists make it fairly good(I would even call it the overall best armor Inc ship). Even with the lower dps I like the Kronos more than the Vindicator atm, simply because of the utility high slots what are really good in case of logi disconnects, capping stuff up if you just run with Onis or having enough cargo for tons of ammo, sniper fitting, travel fitting and a shuttle.
The lack of sentry dps and lacking of the 90% webs will hit both very hard. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:18:00 -
[1725] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Skia Aumer wrote:and using Marauders for PVP is ridiculously stupid. Not with these changes its not. Yes, it is. Because tough guys dont need to prove anything. Arguments are for suckers. |

Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
2482
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:20:00 -
[1726] - Quote
Better transformation video imo Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:23:00 -
[1727] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
I mentioned this a couple of days back. It also has the benefit of rewarding player skill. Knowing when to use the bastion module, being able to eyeball the angles to MJD right where you want, these are things that require skill, and reward those who are good at them.
Isn't the addition of opportunities for skilled players to shine what people want?
Quote: The web nerfs for Palidan and Kronos, at least in Incurions, isn't the end of the world. Vanguard squads are going to need Lokis or Bhaals to long point things once again. 3x 60% webs will do the job. The increased range for Scorch or Null will make killing frigate spawns at range easier since sebo'd or re-sebo'd Pallys can stand with Nightmare lock times. No more gimped marauder sensor rez, yay!
That nobody has been attempting to make a good case for all marauders to get the web bonus leads me to read all the wailing about losing it as "Don't nerf me bro!", which is always suspect.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7792
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:24:00 -
[1728] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:baltec1 wrote:Skia Aumer wrote:and using Marauders for PVP is ridiculously stupid. Not with these changes its not. Yes, it is. Because tough guys dont need to prove anything. Arguments are for suckers.
I already have plans to use the kronos for small gangs, and as a sniper and a blaster brawler.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
294
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:24:00 -
[1729] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote:i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.
Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\
make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.  AWWWE YEEAAHH add in walk-in-ship, have a little bar, give us a house in there so we can buy furnature and play minecraft in our cabin add built in refinery.... add limited docking/repair/fitting services for nubs, add a ship bay.....
What, you mean actually make it able to maraud? Like not go home ever? You'd need a mini ammo factory on board... Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Critical Issue
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:26:00 -
[1730] - Quote
I will use it everyday for anything. I think it's too cool not to fly it around. No, really. |
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:26:00 -
[1731] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote:i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.
Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\
make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.  AWWWE YEEAAHH add in walk-in-ship, have a little bar, give us a house in there so we can buy furnature and play minecraft in our cabin add built in refinery.... add limited docking/repair/fitting services for nubs, add a ship bay..... What, you mean actually make it able to maraud? Like not go home ever? You'd need a mini ammo factory on board... do you know i was actually going to post that too, but i dont know engredients for ammo as im not a manufacturer, but it would be awesome and hilarious and useless and i want it.
Imagine if they made it a "just for fun" ship...i could see it now....
"Marauder: this ship class was designed with its user base in mind. Long time vetts tired of uncomfortable chairs, inconvenience and the daily grind can now opt for a more comfortable drive.... with built in cabin, they can even take a nap while tanking those guristas. The on board bar and food stands allow for the captain to entertain new capsuleers and show them what true luxery is. With build in agent communication array, ammo production line, and drone loading bay, you can stay out longer without needing to dock at stuffy corporate stations. Not the highest damage output of all battleships, but rather for those of more discerning tastes.
Requires monicle or odins eye to operate. " |

Xander Kross
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:29:00 -
[1732] - Quote
No matter what anybody says, changes to marauders are overall good. One more thing, if we are getting all this extra tank, can we get lvl 5 missions in highsec too? |

Aganola
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:30:00 -
[1733] - Quote
GOLEM TRANSFORMATION REVEALED:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQAvMUUJr4 |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:30:00 -
[1734] - Quote
I rather prefer my Kronos the way it is with rails. It can do Buzz Kill without even scratching the armor in 18 minutes, it can mwd quickly to the gate in AE, take down the gate spawn at range with sentry's and rails reasonable quick and utilize the 90% web + sentry's in stage 2 and 3 to kill everything from the warp in(total time of the mission is like 20 minutes, mostly by the low dps, what is actually still higher than your Blaster fitting).
I realize there is a certain use of ships that support doing it wrong(like fitting a cap booster, dual prop and blasters on a Kronos) and that can't be lost in any situation without being completely afk but I think it is a big mistake balancing the hulls around this, since it is pretty bad for people that fully utilize her marauders atm.
If you have to, at least leave the web bonus on the Kronos and Paladin and add your new falloff(useless for rails) and optimal(not worth the web strength for a lot of application in the Pala) bonus instead of the active tank bonus, It is not relevant with the bastion mod anyway and even without it currently not really of value to me(since you don't really need tank for L4, if you do them right). Also do not gimp her speed and drone bay by default, if you have to bind this changes at the bastion mod(becoming a brick with a lot less dps with it) to leave people that will never fit it at least the option to keep her marauder as it is, instead of a horrible over tanked brick with bad dps. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
294
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:35:00 -
[1735] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? ...
I mentioned this a couple of days back. ... [quote]
In all cases where the gate is less than 70km away, you're better off with a microwarp drive than a single MJD.
The MJD is unnecessary for PVE, and pretty difficult to use well in PVP.
A MWD cap-use bonus would actually be more useful than a MJD cooldown bonus.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7792
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:39:00 -
[1736] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
In all cases where the gate is less than 70km away, you're better off with a microwarp drive than a single MJD.
The MJD is unnecessary for PVE, and pretty difficult to use well in PVP.
A MWD cap-use bonus would actually be more useful than a MJD cooldown bonus.
You put both on the ship... |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
294
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:45:00 -
[1737] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
In all cases where the gate is less than 70km away, you're better off with a microwarp drive than a single MJD.
The MJD is unnecessary for PVE, and pretty difficult to use well in PVP.
A MWD cap-use bonus would actually be more useful than a MJD cooldown bonus.
You put both on the ship...
Yes I saw the fit. The MJD is unnecessary since in reality it accomplishes nothing that a MWD cannot.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:02:00 -
[1738] - Quote
Gwen Ambraelle wrote: Ytterbium's post only confirms what I thought these things would be able to do. I must admit the idea of both a MWD and MJD never occurred to me (I thought for some reason you could only have one or the other fitted, live and learn), but that removes issues with gate to gate travel.
Well, the main thing is that most battleships have to make uncomfortable compromises to fit both a MJD and a MWD - that's two mid slots and a lot of CPU and PG.
My concerns are:
1) the drone bays are a bit stingy. At the very least the Kronos deserves an extra 25m3 of bay, so it can fly mediums and have a flight of lights (or whatever) in reserve.
2) Given that the resist profiles are not full T2 ones, and that these ships are supposedly not intended for full-on fleet actions (i.e. their lore doesn't support 'buffed resists vs. racial enemies'), they could be smoothed out somewhat. The Kronos and the Golem (and to a lesser extent the Vargur) have rather large resist holes that effective eat a module slot to fill that the Paladin (and maybe the Vargur) doesn't have.
3) The Paladin's cap bonus seems odd, given all the other ships have some kind of application bonus (tracking, painter bloom). It only works as a damage application bonus if the Paladin is cap-starved as a normal state of affairs if you lack Marauders V. As it's base cap recharge rate is considerably higher than that of an Apoc, it seems unlikely to be horribly cap-starved. However, I'm not sure what would be a good replacement, as lasers generally have pretty good tracking, so a tracking bonus might be too good, and it does mean that a skilled Paladin pilot will be able to be very free with MWD useage when not in bastion.
4) The Golem's bonus to painters means that while other Marauders have a bonus to DPS, the Golem instead has two bonuses to application. This isn't bad in and of itself (avoids homogenisation), but as the bonus also effectively says "And Thou Shalt Fill Thy Mids With Painters", which seems restrictive to me. I'd prefer a missile explosion velocity bonus. Yes, that would give the Golem radius and velocity bonuses, but as torps have awful radii, and both torps and cruise missiles have very poor explosion velocity, I don't think this would have unreasonable results.
Points 1&2 concern me more than 3&4.
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:05:00 -
[1739] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Yes I saw the fit. The MJD is unnecessary since in reality it accomplishes nothing that a MWD cannot.
A MJD allows you to go straight to good sniping distances (for LR weapon tracking) instead of racing against npcs when accel gates inevitably dump you in the middle of a blob Also they allow you to warp out in 11 seconds in any circumstances if aligned (or a few more to align after MJDing) instead of trying to outrun a bunch of webbing and pointing elite frigates (this is why I wouldn't consider NOT putting one on any PVE ship) |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:15:00 -
[1740] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Just to put the record straight, wormhole gank squads will only scan you down if they have no other option - i.e. you are in a signature that they did not scan down before you logged on.
Usually we just follow you into an anomaly with a scout ship and call in the hictor drop on the scout.
Unless you have our wormhole covered with a scout of your own you have maximum 15 seconds to react *if* you see the hictor on d-scan while it's on final approach.
Or you get scrammed and webbed by a cloaky T3, when the gank squad, including hictor jump in and warp onto you. The thing is, bastion or no bastion doesn't matter a damn, because you're going nowhere unless you have friends to help get those scrams off you. Really expensive ships running solo get ganked, and IME it doesn't really matter what special tricks they have unless it's something in the order of a nullified T3 (and of course they tend to suck at anything other than being stealthy and slippery). I don't really think having bastion makes marauders any more gankable than not, assuming normal caution is applied (aside from being really unlucky when a WH opens into your system). The nullbears that don't dock up as soon as they hear about a local spike a system over will get ganked, but they do anyway.
|
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:16:00 -
[1741] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Just to put the record straight, wormhole gank squads will only scan you down if they have no other option - i.e. you are in a signature that they did not scan down before you logged on.
Usually we just follow you into an anomaly with a scout ship and call in the hictor drop on the scout.
Unless you have our wormhole covered with a scout of your own you have maximum 15 seconds to react *if* you see the hictor on d-scan while it's on final approach.
Or you get scrammed and webbed by a cloaky T3, and then the gank squad, including hictor jump in and warp onto you. The thing is, bastion or no bastion doesn't matter a damn, because you're going nowhere unless you have friends to help get those scrams off you. Really expensive ships running solo get ganked, and IME it doesn't really matter what special tricks they have unless it's something in the order of a nullified T3 (and of course they tend to suck at anything other than being stealthy and slippery). I don't really think having bastion makes marauders any more gankable than not, assuming normal caution is applied (aside from being really unlucky when a WH opens into your system). The nullbears that don't dock up as soon as they hear about a local spike a system over will get ganked, but they do anyway. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
296
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:16:00 -
[1742] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Yes I saw the fit. The MJD is unnecessary since in reality it accomplishes nothing that a MWD cannot.
A MJD allows you to go straight to good sniping distances (for LR weapon tracking) instead of racing against npcs when accel gates inevitably dump you in the middle of a blob Also they allow you to warp out in 11 seconds in any circumstances if aligned (or a few more to align after MJDing) instead of trying to outrun a bunch of webbing and pointing elite frigates (this is why I wouldn't consider NOT putting one on any PVE ship)
And yet Ytterbium's example fit featured short-range weaponry, with the MJD used to get into trouble rather than out of it.
The MJD in this context is unnecessary. Fitting a web in it's place would arguably provide superior kill rates. If the MJD drive is unnecessary, so is the MJD bonus.
I argue once again that marauders would be better served with a velocity bonus rather than a velocity nerf, if they are intended to engage NPCs at close range.
A velocity bonus would also give them better gank evasion characteristics in hostile space.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:16:00 -
[1743] - Quote
right now all i can see happening is as soon as maruders comit to a bastion cycle short range ships will get in range, then they will either be able to tank the incoming dmg and will stay in bastion. or they will start to die, and will be scrambled somewhere in the 69 seconds before they could mjd to safety so there would be no point in leaving bastion anyway. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
111
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:18:00 -
[1744] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:hmskrecik wrote:I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button. Since when did they become IWIN? Well, they ARE NOT as they are proposed, and that was my point. Bastion bonuses without bastion drawbacks would be pretty much close to the nirvana though. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:36:00 -
[1745] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.
|

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1185
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:40:00 -
[1746] - Quote
KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 14000 PWG (+2000), 580 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6600(-200) / 7200(-100) / 8600(+400) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6900(+1275) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 6 cap/s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 m/s(-28) / .114(-0.0038) / 113160000(+11360000) / 17.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+3km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 13 Magnetometric Signature radius: 420(-80)
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Questions I'd like to see some players answer and I'll do it my self, why would "x" use this ship in null and what for? (current version)
-anoms? -no, bastion or not 13 Sensor makes it a joke still -structure grind? -maybe for lols and giggles -can it be done well/better in Vindi or Navy Mega? -sure -what's the point of this ship for while in null? -none except trying bastion stuff -can you fly it?- yes -do you fly it and where?- no way I waste a penny for, already wasted training time and isk in skills, that's enough! -would you fly it if current version hits TQ and where? -nope -what is this ship worth for in your opinion? -high sec PVE and POS shooting -Why am I even posting? -duno, maybe because I can
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:41:00 -
[1747] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Battle Cube wrote:i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.
Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\
make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.  AWWWE YEEAAHH add in walk-in-ship, have a little bar, give us a house in there so we can buy furnature and play minecraft in our cabin add built in refinery.... add limited docking/repair/fitting services for nubs, add a ship bay..... What, you mean actually make it able to maraud? Like not go home ever? You'd need a mini ammo factory on board... do you know i was actually going to post that too, but i dont know engredients for ammo as im not a manufacturer, but it would be awesome and hilarious and useless and i want it. Imagine if they made it a "just for fun" ship...i could see it now.... "Marauder: this ship class was designed with its user base in mind. Long time vetts tired of uncomfortable chairs, inconvenience and the daily grind can now opt for a more comfortable drive.... with built in cabin, they can even take a nap while tanking those guristas. The on board bar and food stands allow for the captain to entertain new capsuleers and show them what true luxery is. With build in agent communication array, ammo production line, and drone loading bay, you can stay out longer without needing to dock at stuffy corporate stations. Not the highest damage output of all battleships, but rather for those of more discerning tastes. Requires monicle or odins eye to operate. "
i instantly would scream give it to me that is a marauder
or even more hillarios make the cargo bay split into lets say 1000m-¦ normal cargo and 600m-¦ reprocessing hangar in which slowly the random loot u put into will be transformed into the needed ammo or capboosters or drones just needing the right bpo give it the ability to cloak up (not covert ops cloak but a bonus to non covert cloaking to negate those sideeffects while cloak not active) and there u got a selfsustained monster that can maraud through abbandoned 0 npc 0 low sec or 0 secs without stations ... who this is what i call awesome
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:47:00 -
[1748] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:-anoms? -no, bastion or not 13 Sensor makes it a joke still -structure grind? -maybe for lols and giggles -can it be done well/better in Vindi or Navy Mega? -sure -what's the point of this ship for while in null? -none except trying bastion stuff -can you fly it?- yes -do you fly it and where?- no way I waste a penny for, already wasted training time and isk in skills, that's enough! -would you fly it if current version hits TQ and where? -nope -what is this ship worth for in your opinion? -high sec PVE and POS shooting -Why am I even posting? -duno, maybe because I can
What the hell does sensor strength have to do with anom running? It's completely irrelevant unless you're shooting rats that jam and bastion gives you EW immunity anyways so you don't have to care about jams. Locking speed is determined by scan resolution and 120 scan res is not a bad number for a battleship. The Vindicator has 100, for comparison. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1490
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 11:52:00 -
[1749] - Quote
I would really like these to hit sisi soon so we can do proper testing and not forum warrior numbers Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 12:08:00 -
[1750] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: I argue once again that marauders would be better served with a velocity bonus rather than a velocity nerf, if they are intended to engage NPCs at close range.
Where do you get this idea? Seeing as Marauders have a range skill bonus instead of tracking and bastion has a range bonus it would seem the opposite?
Mournful Conciousness wrote: A velocity bonus would also give them better gank evasion characteristics in hostile space.
If you're using a BSs speed to evade ganks I think your doing something wrong. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
296
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 12:16:00 -
[1751] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: I argue once again that marauders would be better served with a velocity bonus rather than a velocity nerf, if they are intended to engage NPCs at close range.
Where do you get this idea? Seeing as Marauders have a range skill bonus instead of tracking and bastion has a range bonus it would seem the opposite? Mournful Conciousness wrote: A velocity bonus would also give them better gank evasion characteristics in hostile space.
If you're using a BSs speed to evade ganks I think your doing something wrong.
The example fit uses short range weaponry coupled with the range extending bonuses of the ship and the bastion module.
Increased ship speed is equivalent to increased range because it achieves the same thing.
re evasion: To evade a gank you need to be not where you were when your attacker went into warp.
You want to be 30+km from a gate entry point. If there are no gates you want to be constantly moving. If you stand still, strong or not, you're dead.
I am very experienced at ganking people. I know what I can catch and what I can't without being evaded. Moving targets are always much more difficult.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2677
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 12:19:00 -
[1752] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.
Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps".
This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator.
|

Danica Fox
money talks dirty
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 12:25:00 -
[1753] - Quote
maybe with the upgraded pg and cpu u could turn those marauders in smartbomb bs for 0
4 guns 3 large faction sb bastion module or 4th sb small shieldbooster some hardeners damage mods + maybe 1 or 2 fitting mods
it would screw all bonuses but might work in stargate havens and hubs maybe we should clarify before its going live and insta nerfed |

PhatController
Mum Rider Alliance Abandon PlayGrounds
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:10:00 -
[1754] - Quote
Doed wrote:Two step wrote:I'd rather see a tracking penalty and a DPS increase. As is, where are you expecting these to be used? In nullsec, they will get eaten alive by bombers, in w-space they use too much mass (and can't fit into C1 holes where you really might like a mini-dread).
It seems to me like they will still be PVE boats, which you claimed you wanted to change. I was kinda thinking the same... Lolhs and wh super niche is all they will see outside of pve.
Have to disagree, as well as a niche pve role before the patch, these ships will also have a niche pvp role, namely POS bashing for those corps that can't field dreads, and for Hi-Sec POS bashing. I don't know a lot about FW but potentially Ihub bashing? |

Horatio Astrates
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:10:00 -
[1755] - Quote
Marauders get nerved. It's not a bug it's a feature. I do not know why people compare the Bastion Stuff with the Dreadnaught Siege Mode. In Siege do a lot more Damage 8.8 times if you have the Tech II Module. You do not do any more damage in Bastion Mode. What you get is a better chance of losing your ship or playing AFK. I was totally astonished how large the speed tank affected even with Afterburners is, and you totally loose the option of aligning and leaving the screen.
In my Tachyon paladin I use the Multifrequency Crystals for everything below a range of about 60 km. What I do not need is using Multifrequency Crystal in Max Targeting distance. Lots of enemies will be at closer range. The strong webber, my best weapon against close range targets I shall loose, also drone Capacity. The Amor gets nerved. For what do I need another high slot, a mid or low slot would be useful: Armor, Heat Sink or Recharge. I already have 3 utility high slots. Salvaging will be done with a Noctis, it is more efficient anyway.
If you want to realize this concept make a new class of ships, based on the former Tier III battleships. But leave me my toy.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
296
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:17:00 -
[1756] - Quote
PhatController wrote:
Have to disagree, as well as a niche pve role before the patch, these ships will also have a niche pvp role, namely POS bashing for those corps that can't field dreads, and for Hi-Sec POS bashing. I don't know a lot about FW but potentially Ihub bashing?
A 1 billion isk marauder in an ihub bash? I'll give you 2 minutes before you're hot-dropped.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
411
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:23:00 -
[1757] - Quote
Mandatory...
CCP reconsider not nerfing speed agility hit points to the ground for teh sake of immobile brick that marauder will become.
They are already limited by drone nerf and simple fact that bastion will anchor you where you stand, with benefit no b8ger that you already had before TE nerf while being linked with scimitar. ..it is nice buff but totally not worth all of nerfs and immobility stacked on top. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
436
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:33:00 -
[1758] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:PhatController wrote:
Have to disagree, as well as a niche pve role before the patch, these ships will also have a niche pvp role, namely POS bashing for those corps that can't field dreads, and for Hi-Sec POS bashing. I don't know a lot about FW but potentially Ihub bashing?
A 1 billion isk marauder in an ihub bash? I'll give you 2 minutes before you're hot-dropped.
Not to mention at that price, a dread would do it literally 10 times better. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
296
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:39:00 -
[1759] - Quote
I was a little inspired by CCP Ytterbium's fit and narrative of a new bastion kronos doing a Hisec Level 4 (not inspired to do it myself you understand, but it gave me some ideas).
I have also been thinking about the various posts I have seen concerning the use of a marauder in w-space for solo ratting.
I decided to see if I could make an affordable fit that would solo cat-3 sleepers.
It turns out that it's possible with the current Kronos (fit below). So then I wondered, "why are people not already doing this?". In 3 years of ganking hapless wormhole ratters, I have never seen a solo marauder. Solo tengus, yes. Solo lokis, yes. Solo legions, yes. But never a similarly priced marauder which would do the job faster.
Maybe it's the lack of versatility? A tengu is good at more stuff, so why not just invest once? Perhaps it's just a mindset thing. People just don't think to do it. Speak to most people and they'll say, "battleships don't work in wormholes". But I use them. The fact is that they do work.
Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?
[Kronos, omni]
4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Null L) Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beam II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800) Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script) Stasis Webifier II
Ammatar Navy Large Armor Repairer Damage Control II 3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
5x Hammerhead II 7x Vespa EC-600
[Statistics - All V, no implants, links or drugs]
Tank Ability: 546.64 DPS Armor Resists - EM: 76.92%, Ex: 58.46%, Ki: 77.50%, Th: 73.75% Capacitor (Stable at 81.05%)
Volley Damage: 3,877.73 DPS: 1052 range 14490/22750 range (null) DPS: 1409 range 7762/8125 range (void)
Looking at the numbers, if I was online alone and had a dual-box scout on the 1 wormhole entrance to my C3, I'd give it a go. Of course, if a new sig appeared I'd be off to my POS quicker than a fast thing moving quickly in a hurry.
Has anyone out there ever tried a fit like this?
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

mamamia s
ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:42:00 -
[1760] - Quote
lots of posts got deleted in the last sites obviosly
but i-¦m interested in the question of pricetag as a balance issue
is it a balance wise looked in or totally out of balance thoughts
i see alot of argument of dreads and marauders which are quite close in terms of isk cost and not so close (not too far away it think) close on skilltime
on the other hand lets say a vindi is on par on isk but far under skill req
i would be interested in some thoughts from the comms and even the devs if possible
no discussion on power or something like that just the point of isk ad skilltime pls |
|

Blazing Betty
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:53:00 -
[1761] - Quote
Just a two cent idea for Marauders ...allow for scripts that will influence your MJD . Lets say a script for 20 km , 40 km ,60 km , 80 km and 100 km jump range...using it on the fly to determine your jump range as a added feature only for Marauders... |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
296
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:59:00 -
[1762] - Quote
How marauders should really be: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu1BF-pZcUw[/url]
If you remember this game, I reckon you're just about old enough to appreciate eve online properly  Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Akvi Raiku
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:01:00 -
[1763] - Quote
I think it is not good to leave only 5 lightdrones at the same time as ship totally immobilized. 75m3 is better, but b\w still can be 25Mb\s. Other way.. Ok, maybe it's a variant to use a large neutralizers against fast targets, but.. CCP should research the idea to replace bonus for tractor beams with the bonus for range of energy neutralizers (only in bastion mode, only on paladin for ex) and with bonus for stasis webs' factor (only in bastion mode, only on kronos for ex). It will be very nice bonus change since bastion don't raise dps. So we'll get 2 marodeurs with more-pvp-specialization. Golem and Vargur still may have the bonus for tractors (pve orientation). |

marVLs
393
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:13:00 -
[1764] - Quote
I'm w8ing for round two (maybe even more...) because no way this is acceptable.
Overall transforming idea is good, something new, fresh and sure will bring new players to game, but those bonuses lacks usefulness and target. They need to be the best at PVE, they're specialized T2 ships ffs... |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1200
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:22:00 -
[1765] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter. With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything. I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea. How to wreck things in missions?Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them. Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course. Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.
- Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
- Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
- Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
- Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
- Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
- Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.
So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.
As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post). Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos.
Wonderful, you have managed to get through WC with the Kronos on your private server. Now, how about letting us test under less controlled conditions. Because I simply don't believe you that it is a more effective ship. I am talking all the Marauders.
Regardless of what you say, you have nerfed the damage by hammering the drone bay, and removing the web bonus is critical for a ton of players. Sure sure, it hits with more effective damage at range. But I will not believe a word about how you deal with scramming frigs until I do it myself and see player feedback from Sisi.
And BTW, using cap boosters is NOT how people fly a PvE ship.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:29:00 -
[1766] - Quote
Ele Rebellion wrote:I have major concerns about both the PvP and PvE capabilities that the Bastion Marauders will have... I'm going to use the Kronos here as example since it is the one I'm most familiar with.
First off, The damage output seems to be lacking. With max skills there is a 25% bonus plus the 100% role bonus. Apply that to 4 hybrids and you have the equivalent of 10 (4 x 1.25 x 2 = 10). Without any bonus from the bastion module the dps will still still fall behind the Vindicator (8 x 1.375 = 11) .. I know you said you don't want its damage output to surpass the Vindicator, but it wouldn't make sense to me for a ship that goes into a special mode to still fall behind in damage output... Now that with the price comparable to a Vindicator and the fact that it can't receive remote reps, why would anyone take these in a fleet?
It makes perfect sense. These ships are favoring damage application and tank over raw DPS. The Pirate Battleships post-rebalance will probably end up looking like shiny Attack Battleships favoring DPS and speed over tank and application.
These are also not meant to be PvP god-boats, they're pretty clearly PvE focused but the Bastion mod should give them at least a little niche PvP usefulness. This does not meant they are intended to be the core of every fleet comp, that's just going to lead to power creep and another Flavor of the Month fleet that's hilariously over-priced.
Ele Rebellion wrote:Another issue. removing the stasis web bonus and nerfing the drone bay and bandwidth eliminates its use in most level 4 security missions. Reason being is how is this thing supposed to hit a frigate? I thought well just MJD away and then shoot frigates from distance.. but then as I was running a level 4 in my SNI it occured to me.. What would a Kronos pilot do if they were fighting a frigate that had them scrammed and was low on drones. (since to use MJD the Kronos would have to exit Bastion and spool the MJD; making it susceptible to EW) ..without a web bonus it would be near impossible to hit a fast moving frigate.
They do still hae drones and while I'll admit I'd like more drone-bay if I'm going through more than one or two T2 Light Drones in a mission I'm doing it pretty wrong, doubly so if I'm only using them on targets within 10km (easy recall distance). So if I'm "low on drones" I should probably go get some more.
Ele Rebellion wrote:So what would the use of one of these really be? I can't seem to find one. Some people have suggested POS Bashing in High Sec or SubCap WHs, but wouldn't a buffer shield tanked Vindicator with dps fit (and better drone bay/bandwidth) be more effective with a T2 Logistics cruiser behind it? (I've never seen anyone go POS Bash solo.)
The advantages are of the bastion are Range, EW Immunity, Resist, and self Reps.
Yes, but you don't have to fit Bastion. The Kronos with logi behind it will rep more than a Vindi because of better resists.
Overall though if you're going to bring a logi supported fleet to a POS bash you bring Attack Battlecruisers with lasers.
Again, niche use.
Ele Rebellion wrote:Only thing I see that is really going to benefit from this is the Golems. They are keeping their target painter bonus, shield rep bonus, and explosion velocity bonus. Plus gaining the bastion bonuses. Currently my SNI with good skills and a couple implants, Gist X-Type XL shield booster and Gist X-Type XL boost amplifier reps around 1200 every 4 seconds.. those two modules on a Golem in bastion mode with its bonuses (not including the 1.1 10% bonus to that repper) is going to be sitting around 3,500 every 4 secs and will have the range to use Torps in PvE. (not to mention that the 3,500 every 4 seconds only cost around 180GJ per cycle on max skills so it will be EASILY cap stable)
More likely you'll be able to downgrade the repper and drop the boost amp for a perma-running fit and more damage application mods like target painters or the missile mods Rise hinted at.
Ele Rebellion wrote:The Paladin is in the same boat as the Kronos. Its loosing stasis web bonuses for more range that it don't really need, and its still lacking in reps and cap (since armor repping ships need 2 reps to even come close to competing with 1 shield rep)
The Vargur is in the middle. Its going to have the Golem's defence and reps, but its still going to have the issues of hitting smaller targets.
CCP, Please take this one back to the drawing boards.. I really want to see the Marauders rebalanced (and I love the idea of a Mini-Dread), but I feel that this isn't the way to do it.
Oh, and almost forgot... Why the HP nerfs to Shields and Armor but bonus to Hull? These things already have WAY less hp than the pirate faction ships... and why does the Kronos have 8600 Hull HP but only 7200 Armor HP if its supposed to be an Armor tank? (Armor repair bonuses)
Except that with an MJD and more range it can apply higher damage at range through higher damage ammo.
At long range tracking and issues hitting smaller targets cease to be an issue (seriously try a mission like Mordu's Headhunters with a long range turret BS, the frigates and cruisers never get near you).
About the only thing you have a point on here is the various HP levels which are probably due to balancing their EHP against hilarious buffer fits, though I'll admit having more shields than armor on an armor bonused ship doesn't make much sense. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3315
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:03:00 -
[1767] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?
This is EVE Online, where people actually think Tengus are super awesome for sleeper sites, and that Lokis and Legions make any kind of sense in sleeper sites. On a more serious note, marauders take what, 3-4 times(?) longer to train to an optimal level than T3s.
That said, I've seen marauders 5-6 times in w-space for PVE purposes. I'm also considering moving back to wormholes just so I can bait bads with a Kronos.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1410
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:03:00 -
[1768] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:The Pirate Battleships post-rebalance will probably end up looking like shiny Attack Battleships favoring DPS and speed over tank and application.
yea, the nightmare and sentry rattler are known for being speed demons.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
213
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:04:00 -
[1769] - Quote
I absolutely doubt that those bastion-marauders will not have impact on pvp. Maybe insignificant for low/null, but they got great traits for whs so far. Putting aside c5 and up engaging people you know will drop dreads - that aside, they make for excellent addition to any small fleet you got. Their invulnerabilty to ewar while bastioned, combined with dual-heavy-cap-boost and DAT HOLD makes for nice applications. It mostly acts like/similiar to a guardian-replacement regarding the rep-output. The rangelimitation is a hindrance, but nothing people can't overcome.
The achievable tank also falls pretty decently into the magnitude needed for smaller wh brawls (with around 6-8k), matching around 3 guards repairing a t3)
The concept of MWD+bastion till now appears to bump the align far beyond 100seconds, which would mean that sieging at 1km/s would make you leave bastion after a minute at something 300-400m/s I'd guess wildly. Afaik webs can't be activated on those sieged targets (I rarely try to web sieged webs atleast), so there is pretty much nothing one can do to alter your trajectory.
Looking at the Paladin/Vargur, quite a bunch of ideas to deploy them are coming to mind...
"When we're done with links you won't recognize them" - CCP Fozzie |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:17:00 -
[1770] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its amazing to see so many bears screaming for an I win ship with no drawbacks.
Because null sec and low sec people never do that, nope nope nope 
Seriously though, I'm amazed how many people want this thing to be "Dread-blap Junior" 
Battle Cube wrote:you apparently havent read anything. People arent screaming for an i win ship, people are screaming for a BALANCED ship, that falls into line with ships of comparable isk cost and SP requirement. You be trollin'.
Yeah, I'm with Baltech here. Some of the ideas have been good, many have been horribly balanced starting with everyone asking for more damage.
The last thing this game needs is a pissing contest between T2 and Faction Battleship hulls over raw DPS supremacy. |
|

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
363
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:19:00 -
[1771] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls 
look I will glady sacrifice half tracking if needed for 25% more DPS, I can live with that.
you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
296
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:31:00 -
[1772] - Quote
Roime wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?
This is EVE Online, where people actually think Tengus are super awesome for sleeper sites, and that Lokis and Legions make any kind of sense in sleeper sites. On a more serious note, marauders take what, 3-4 times(?) longer to train to an optimal level than T3s. That said, I've seen marauders 5-6 times in w-space for PVE purposes. I'm also considering moving back to wormholes just so I can bait bads with a Kronos.
Do it!!! I will look out for you - we shall have awesome fights. A merry time shall be had by all.
\o/
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:35:00 -
[1773] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:look I will glady sacrifice half tracking if needed for 25% more DPS, I can live with that.
you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about.
Are you familiar with "dread blapping"?  |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
420
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:38:00 -
[1774] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last. As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE. [/list] Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post). Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos.
I don't recall mission runners having trouble tanking missions.
Only reason for this buff that I can think of is that missions are about to be made harder.
Could someone please explain to me how these changes are positive in a PVP aspect.
-No 90% web = can't lock down target -In siege = can't move = no transversal = can't chase target running away -Used for POS shoots = Raven Navy has 400 more dps |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1410
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:39:00 -
[1775] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. if isk/click was your main concern, you would be running passive tanked FoF rattlesnakes or domis.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3316
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:50:00 -
[1776] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Roime wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?
This is EVE Online, where people actually think Tengus are super awesome for sleeper sites, and that Lokis and Legions make any kind of sense in sleeper sites. On a more serious note, marauders take what, 3-4 times(?) longer to train to an optimal level than T3s. That said, I've seen marauders 5-6 times in w-space for PVE purposes. I'm also considering moving back to wormholes just so I can bait bads with a Kronos. Do it!!! I will look out for you - we shall have awesome fights. A merry time shall be had by all. \o/
Might even be worth it to buy a marauder character without any KB history :)
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
265
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:54:00 -
[1777] - Quote
After almost 90 pages, I'm convinced: this is not the direction to go. I think Bastion itself is an awesome idea. Who wouldn't want a ship that transforms to uber tank? But the Marauders are just the wrong hull.
As it stands, this is an awesome ideagasm in need of a home. Nothing about the Marauder hulls (attack BS's), their abilities, or their description screams 'immobile brick'. This shows up in the fact that they all had to be HP, speed, drone and mass altered to offset this new module. That's indicative of cramming in functionality they're not built for, crowding out what they were trying to be good at.
The Combat BS is the hull you want this on. They're already heartier, slower, tougher. What you've designed is a module for a new class of Tech 2 Battleship that doesn't exist. But I don't know that you're prepared to make that a whole new thing, which is why you're bolting it on to the Marauders.
So don't go this direction. Go the other direction. Make the Marauder what its name claims to be: a fast, hard-hitting, behind enemy lines, hit and run, smash and grab hull.
- The MJD bonus is great. Added mobility is key for something that Marauds. The ability to hop out of (or into) danger is pretty cool.
- I still like the tractor bonus, although everyone here seems to dualbox with a Noctis, which must be nice. But for all of us that don't have salvaging alt accounts, and may not have a Noctis parked in every mission hub, the Marauder's ability to cart off the riches of the fallen while still murdering their compatriots is amazing. And it holds with the 'behind enemy lines' flavor. Boost the range to 200% to offset the use of the MJD. Let me reprocess and build ammo on-board, and I'll have your children.
- The power/cpu upgrades were desperately needed, and should stay. The boosts to targeting range and scan res were needed as well. Likewise the cap bonus is beautiful.
- The extra hi is unnecessary if you port Bastion to a new hull.
- Don't nerf the HP, speed, drone bays. And take back all that bloody mass.
- Love the sig radius decrease, it fits the theme.
- Fix the sensor strength. In fact, harden the sensors. After years of complaints and slumping Marauder sales, the engineers were ordered to bump them to competitive levels.
- Boost the resistances to standard Tech 2.
- Give them the deep space warp strength +2 bonus. Give people the chance to ACTUALLY go behind enemy lines and come out alive. You want a specialty that will make people wet themselves? Give them +1 warp strength per Marauder level (I know, it's madness). Or give them immunity to non-targeted interdiction. Make them truly capable of marauding in the dark places of the galaxy. Suddenly the name makes sense. And you'll see them in PvP as well as PvE, especially low-sec.
This makes the Marauder an incredibly strong ship (as it should be, all the way at the end of a very long training cycle and price tag). It provides needed buffs and hole filling for PvE, and provides interesting new options for PvP. And puts more high dollar ships in harm's way, which is good for business. |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:54:00 -
[1778] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:look I will glady sacrifice half tracking if needed for 25% more DPS, I can live with that.
you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. Are you familiar with "dread blapping"? 
yes I do, we used to do that In a WH corp I was at before.
Lokis would hold the sleepers for the revelations and moros to disintegrate said sleepers.
Daniel Plain wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. if isk/click was your main concern, you would be running passive tanked FoF rattlesnakes or domis.
I m... and doesn't it strikes you as weird, that a simple super cheap T1 drone battleship, makes more isk per click AFK than an active combat T2 super expensive battleship? |

Shadalana
Krautz WH Exploration and Production Cerberus Unleashed
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:10:00 -
[1779] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:look I will glady sacrifice half tracking if needed for 25% more DPS, I can live with that.
you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. Are you familiar with "dread blapping"?  yes I do, we used to do that In a WH corp I was at before. Lokis would hold the sleepers for the revelations and moros to disintegrate said sleepers. Daniel Plain wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. if isk/click was your main concern, you would be running passive tanked FoF rattlesnakes or domis. I m... and doesn't it strikes you as weird, that a simple super cheap T1 drone battleship, makes more isk per click AFK than an active combat T2 super expensive battleship?
I know the solution: don't buff the tech2 ship, nerf the tech1 ship, so everything is inline! ... |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:16:00 -
[1780] - Quote
Shadalana wrote: quote and quote of the quote etc etc ...............
I know the solution: don't buff the tech2 ship, nerf the tech1 ship, so everything is inline! ...
They did, still is faster, not only that, plethora of other T1 ships are just as fast, and any pirate or faction battleship is if not as fast, is faster.
Maybe they could add an AOE salvage module and AOE tractor module? that would make marauders very sexy even with the lower dps.
|
|

Zaxix
Long Jump.
230
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:25:00 -
[1781] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:And BTW, using cap boosters is NOT how people fly a PvE ship. Raven a la Liang fit uses it quite effectively. Bokononist
-á |

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
791
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:28:00 -
[1782] - Quote
nonsciolist wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*. I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control. So the Bastion module gives 30% resists to shields, armor and hull? So if used with a damage controller (60% resists on hull), if it is not stacking penalized, you would have 90% omni hull resists? They seemed to add hull HP to most of them as well. I am thinking there could be some very interesting hull tanking fits for these new marauders. 1 high slot Bastion module, and 1 low slot damage controller, you got 90% resists, throw on a reinforced bulk heads or two, and some hull reps in the mids, that would leave you a lot of slots for damage/targeting mods. To bad it doesn't get a hull repairer bonus, or did I just miss it? |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:29:00 -
[1783] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:look I will glady sacrifice half tracking if needed for 25% more DPS, I can live with that.
you still don't get it, so what if It can run a C88 wormhole by itself, tell me how much was your isk per click efficiency? that is the hard number marauder pilots care about for PVE, anything else is just things we do not care about. Are you familiar with "dread blapping"?  What about if we take it in the other direction:
Bastion's range bonus makes blapping NPC's at range no problem, but what about closer NPC's that already have a little traversal built up?
I think Bastion should confer a 25-30% Tracking/Exp Velocity bonus as well. I think this fits the damage application theme, without turning it into a Dread Blapper.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:43:00 -
[1784] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:nonsciolist wrote:Maximus Aerelius wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Do you mean that only one can be fitted per ship and I don't understand the (not stacking penalized) comment. Does this in fact mean that you could fit MOAR THAN ONE and activate two at the same time? *Cue wet pants*. I guess it means that bonus doesn't have a stacking penalty when used with a damage control. So the Bastion module gives 30% resists to shields, armor and hull? So if used with a damage controller (60% resists on hull), if it is not stacking penalized, you would have 90% omni hull resists? They seemed to add hull HP to most of them as well. I am thinking there could be some very interesting hull tanking fits for these new marauders. 1 high slot Bastion module, and 1 low slot damage controller, you got 90% resists, throw on a reinforced bulk heads or two, and some hull reps in the mids, that would leave you a lot of slots for damage/targeting mods. To bad it doesn't get a hull repairer bonus, or did I just miss it? 72%, not 90%.
|

SOL Ranger
Jaeger Squadron
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:43:00 -
[1785] - Quote
A suggestion for Marauders:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3566921#post3566921
|

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:58:00 -
[1786] - Quote
[quote=Daishan Auergni
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE?
.[/quote] Because a like wasn't enough
|

Jan'z Kolna
Exanimo Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:08:00 -
[1787] - Quote
ma-+raud (m-r+¦d) v. ma-+raud-+ed, ma-+raud-+ing, ma-+rauds v.intr.
To rove and raid in search of plunder.
v.tr.
To raid or pillage for spoils.
[French marauder, from maraud, tomcat, vagabond.]
if you go ahead with this bastion module, then eve marauders need name change , because they won't fit marauder definition in any possible way
call them 'monitors' or something
then make proper marauders that do, you know , marauding |

Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:14:00 -
[1788] - Quote
Still waiting on a response to this:
Dear CCP Ytterbium,
What is your reasoning for giving the Vargur a larger drone bay than the Paladin? I don't see any compelling evidence why it should be this way. It should either be even or the Paladin should have the larger drone bay -- for the following reasons:
1) The Vargur has better innate tracking through its bonuses.
2) The Vargur has better tracking through the innate values of autocannons.
3) The Vargur is faster.
4) Amarr are generally 2nd in drones armament (whilst I admit it is the weakest point, it's still one CCP has considered and used as reasoning in the past to justify drone bay allocation).
The points listed above (especially the first 3) lead to one conclusion, to wit: That the Vargur has the greater ability to deal with smaller targets on the field than the Paladin. Why does this matter? Because drones on Battleships are, many times, the one weapon system that saves them from frigates and other targets that get under their tracking.
This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.
And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.
Thus, I see no compelling reason why the Paladin should not have the 50mb drone bay and the Vargur a 25mb drone bay -- or at the least they should be equal.
Thanks for read this, cheers.
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
103
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:26:00 -
[1789] - Quote
Please read the OP... |

Zane Ziebold
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:28:00 -
[1790] - Quote
Bah Gallente ships should have more drones then other factions it there bread and butter.  |
|

Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1199
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:31:00 -
[1791] - Quote
Zane Ziebold wrote:Bah Gallente ships should have more drones then other factions it there bread and butter.  But it's not a Domi hull ship, Mega hulls fawor guns  |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:39:00 -
[1792] - Quote
Since you're increasing damage projection by 25%, maybe it's fair to increase tractor projection (100% -> 150%) to match? Also, salvage drones are a great match with Marauders. How about giving speed and/or cycle time bonuses for them? (Another good reason to double drone bays, as well.) |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:41:00 -
[1793] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though). Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server  Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though. Q. Will bastion module/mode have a re-activation cool down? |

Zane Ziebold
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:43:00 -
[1794] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Why are you taking away the webbing bonuses, this is why i trained up to fly Marauder in the first place. |

Ewersmen
0 inc
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:51:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Marauder for pvp lol
The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .
But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer . |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:54:00 -
[1796] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things. Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps". This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator.
a machariel has higher "paper" dps then a maelstrom...... |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:05:00 -
[1797] - Quote
Ewersmen wrote:Marauder for pvp lol
The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .
But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer . I agree the base tank hp nerf makes these ships more vulnerable to alpha before one can local rep or be rr. If anything a small base increase to their respective tank types and a sensor strength increase of +10 across the class would make them more usable for pvp. The base target range should be increases +10 rather than the five in particular to the ranged weapons type ships like the golem to allow effective on time damage to be applied effectively before you have a swarm of drones eating away. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:06:00 -
[1798] - Quote
So for those of us who aren't planning on using bastion mode:
Will non-bastion mode be balanced on its own right against the other ships? Or will non-bastion mode be purposely unbalanced (nerfed) because of the possibility of fitting bastion ? |

baltec1
Bat Country
7797
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:11:00 -
[1799] - Quote
Ewersmen wrote:Marauder for pvp lol
The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .
But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer .
They did buff the tank... |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:15:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:So for those of us who aren't planning on using bastion mode:
Will non-bastion mode be balanced on its own right against the other ships? Or will non-bastion mode be purposely unbalanced (nerfed) because of the possibility of fitting bastion ? It is nerfed unbalanced for PVP even more so because of the removal/change of bonus to webs on some and drone nerfs across the board not to mention they be even slower. Let us not mention they will be near perma jammed in pvp by light ecm drones in PVP. For PVE use the drones may be an issue for some depending on their fittings and play style and the nerf to their respective main tanks would make them a bit more vulnerable in some cases, but doubtful they be in real danger of being lost less the pilot makes serious mistakes. |
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:16:00 -
[1801] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: Or will non-bastion mode be purposely unbalanced (nerfed) because of the possibility of fitting bastion ?
problably that... it's the CCP way of doing things.
and yeah as someone said, "MARAUDER" name does not fit if you want to make it into tiny cap ship.
Give them god damn tank already, more dps, more everything, more sensor str.. make them worth pvp ships, they are T2 battleships for eff sake.. "MARAUDERSSSSS" mmaaarrraaauuudddeerrrssssss ?!?!?! hello? :D
make them wanted, make them worth 1bil+, make them pvp choise no1. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:19:00 -
[1802] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ewersmen wrote:Marauder for pvp lol
The tank on all marauders is bad ....we don't need a new mode ..just increase the tank ...I fly a golem and I know you have to find the line between tank and dps .
But should I have to find the line ..Its a t2 bs for god sake make the awesome ....not a transformer . They did buff the tank... The base tank was nerfed making them more likely to be alpha'd, but the tank on marauders was hardly what was holding them back for pvp.T2 resists would have been welcomed in any case and should be considered to offset of the base tank decrease. The base sensor strength of the ships staying the same is also a huge ???they ought to be made on par with T1 base hulls at the very least. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2681
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:23:00 -
[1803] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things. Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps". This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator. a machariel has higher "paper" dps then a maelstrom......
Easy test then. Take of damage mods from the mach till it matches the maelstroms dps (replace those damage mods with whatever you like).
Than take both DPS nomalized ships into some kind of pve content. Record which on STILL kills things faster.
Hint, it's name starts with M and ends with achariel.
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
421
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:24:00 -
[1804] - Quote
So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?
minus drone bay minus webs minus sensor strength minus HP minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)
In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:27:00 -
[1805] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Battle Cube wrote:when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.
We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.
So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things. Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps". This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator. a machariel has higher "paper" dps then a maelstrom...... Easy test then. Take of damage mods from the mach till it matches the maelstroms dps (replace those damage mods with whatever you like). Than take both DPS nomalized ships into some kind of pve content. Record which on STILL kills things faster. Hint, it's name starts with M and ends with achariel.
yeah, lets assume we have 2 ships with exactly the same dps, and one has better projection. At equal ranges yes the higher projection one will do better, and there is no advantage in using the lower projection ship . But if you have the lower projection one have even a small amount more 'paper' dps, and you move closer then the projection ship, and all of a sudden you can do more damage. But we arent talking about a small amount of dps, we are talking about a significant amount of dps on ships whos projection is not terrible
Yes! We understand that at the same range, better projection means better dps - but given many situations if you want the max applied damage, you will find it is possible(you will FIND A WAY) to get a ship in their proper range even if lower projection. Incursions are a fantastic example. 1400machs are great projection ships, but vindis and nightmares are preferred due to higher 'paper' dps. The fleet even has a special anchoring spot for the close range ships called the vindi anchor, and the good pilots move themselves. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:30:00 -
[1806] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?
minus drone bay minus webs minus sensor strength minus HP minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)
In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose. To be fair sensor strength was left alone not that is a good thing or maybe it is.....what I mean is the nerfs could have been worse for out of bastion mode just to make them balanced when they are in bastion mode..... |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
436
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:30:00 -
[1807] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?
minus drone bay minus webs minus sensor strength minus HP minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)
In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.
But they can become EWAR immune.....and immobile at the same time  |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
421
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:33:00 -
[1808] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?
minus drone bay minus webs minus sensor strength minus HP minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)
In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose. But they can become EWAR immune.....and immobile at the same time 
Very logical..... I say this sarcastically.
What is easier to hit? A moving target or a stationary one?
Why jam something if it can't move to stay on top of its target to point/web it?
This ship was made purely for PVE. PVP with these ships until winter.... Then retire them. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:40:00 -
[1809] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: I don't recall mission runners having trouble tanking missions.
Only reason for this buff that I can think of is that missions are about to be made harder.
Could someone please explain to me how these changes are positive in a PVP aspect.
-No 90% web = can't lock down target -In siege = can't move = no transversal = can't chase target running away -Used for POS shoots = Raven Navy has 400 more dps
This is missions, targets don't run away.
No one ever said this was intended for POS shooting, some player came up with that idea and everyone ran with it despite there being better things for the job (like an actual fleet setup) and a single ship shooting a POS taking ~14 hours to kill it.
You can still lock down a target, you just need 2 webs rather than 1.
Ager Agemo wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Are you familiar with "dread blapping"?  yes I do, we used to do that In a WH corp I was at before. Lokis would hold the sleepers for the revelations and moros to disintegrate said sleepers. Then you should understand why CCP aren't going to give you a damage bonus for Bastion Mode. [quote=Ager Agemo]I m... and doesn't it strikes you as weird, that a simple super cheap T1 drone battleship, makes more isk per click AFK than an active combat T2 super expensive battleship?
Unless you're worried about wearing out your mouse stop saying Isk per click if you mean isk per time unit. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
95
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:47:00 -
[1810] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:What about if we take it in the other direction:
Bastion's range bonus makes blapping NPC's at range no problem, but what about closer NPC's that already have a little traversal built up?
I think Bastion should confer a 25-30% Tracking/Exp Velocity bonus as well. I think this fits the damage application theme, without turning it into a Dread Blapper.
The risk there is putting too much damage application on a single module.
I agree that the tank ability combine with a focus on long range combat has a bit of a dichotomy to it but I'm not sure I like the idea of a holy-trifecta of range/tank/tracking either.
Nano Quantum wrote: Q. Will bastion module/mode have a re-activation cool down? I did not read mention of it in the OP just the activation on time. Will there be capacitor use associated with activating it and running it or will the now stated no activation cost other than fittings stay?
Assume no because none is stated, nor does any other siege module have one. For the second bit you'll find out if it changes when the rest of us do.
Nano Quantum wrote:My current view is that the current plan of no capacitor and fuel costs stay as well as the plan to make that a separate new skill to learn. If anything i think the length of time on bastion mode at max skills is a bit high. Is there a chance that it be be say 45 seconds at max skills for it. Given that the weapons times limits one ability to dock or gate jump it should not matter at 45 seconds to run the risk of the ships becoming actual marauders.
You missed the bit where there's no new skill anymore and it's a flat 60 seconds. You have to train a rank 5 science skill to 4.
Also stop focusing on the definition of the ship name. They're called Marauders because it sounded cool, not because that's what they're balanced against. |
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:51:00 -
[1811] - Quote
I don't think anybody actually said they would only use one of these to do a 14 hour POS bash. I think most people would take more than one. Or use these to supplement a normal fleet.
What I imagine happening is using a group of these to take down POS defenses before the "main body" arrives to RF the tower. Especially in hisec where you can't have dreadnaughts. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7797
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:52:00 -
[1812] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?
minus drone bay minus webs minus sensor strength minus HP minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)
In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
95
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:00:00 -
[1813] - Quote
Jasmine Assasin wrote:I don't think anybody actually said they would only use one of these to do a 14 hour POS bash. I think most people would take more than one. Or use these to supplement a normal fleet.
What I imagine happening is using a group of these to take down POS defenses before the "main body" arrives to RF the tower. Especially in hisec where you can't have dreadnaughts.
For the same ISK cost and pilot SP you could bring enough logistics to take down a tower and more DPS. The only way these end up at all better is if you somehow forget to bring ECCM to kill an ECM fit POS. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
423
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:09:00 -
[1814] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:[ This is missions, targets don't run away.
No one ever said this was intended for POS shooting, some player came up with that idea and everyone ran with it despite there being better things for the job (like an actual fleet setup) and a single ship shooting a POS taking ~14 hours to kill it.
You can still lock down a target, you just need 2 webs rather than 1.
You ran with the idea that I would shoot one by myself....
Also it's easy to burn away from a target that can't move. We all know 1 web won't stop a ship from getting back to a gate and how do you propose fitting 2 webs on these ships? Remove capbooster from an active tank? Get rid of propulsion? Very interested to here your "easy fix" response.
baltec1 wrote:
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.
|

Xer Jin
Sky Fighters
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:16:00 -
[1815] - Quote
these are all horibad changes to the marauders ITS A TECH 2 BS. they should be better than pirate BS your nerfing speed they should be faster. your nerfing dps they should hit the hardest (especially if you want them to truly be mini dreads ). they should have the best resists LIKE ALL OTHER T2 SHIPS. they need better cap again like all T2 this is just plain bad wrong and stupid. there are more ppl in this thread saying NO and much less saying yes if you're going to balance ships make sure it scales up not up half way along the t2 ships and then come crashing down with the most expensive class of ships in the t2 line this is a BIG NERF they are way too over tanked and under dpsed. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7799
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:20:00 -
[1816] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:baltec1 wrote:
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.
I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls. I track things just fine. And? Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me. There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:23:00 -
[1817] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:baltec1 wrote:
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP. I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls. I track things just fine. And? Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me. There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy. so you would have support with you? like.... i dont know.... logistics? Sounds useful for a ship that blocks rr. I mean, im not a huge pvper, so i may be wrong, but i would probably want logi if i were bringing support |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:24:00 -
[1818] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: You ran with the idea that I would shoot one by myself....
Also it's easy to burn away from a target that can't move. We all know 1 web won't stop a ship from getting back to a gate and how do you propose fitting 2 webs on these ships? Remove capbooster from an active tank? Get rid of propulsion? Very interested to hear your "easy fix" response.
The ships that lost the web bonus are armor ships anyway, they have spare mids. 4 of them to be exact. You certainly have to made trade-offs if you want to fit a second web, but that's the nature of the game. If 1 web isn't enough to stop someone from burning back to a gate and escaping then you should have brought more DPS.
Zeus Maximo wrote:Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.
No one said these things were supposed to be great solo PvP ships. It says 'Niche PvP role' right there in the opening post. Not 'PvP god-kings of ownage'. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7799
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:28:00 -
[1819] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:baltec1 wrote:
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP. I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls. I track things just fine. And? Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me. There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy. so you would have support with you? like.... i dont know.... logistics? Sounds useful for a ship that blocks rr. I mean, im not a huge pvper, so i may be wrong, but i would probably want logi if i were bringing support
Dictors, tackle, ect. I would take a kronos out with cruiser gangs and the like as either bait, sniper or scorched earth blaster fit.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:28:00 -
[1820] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:What about if we take it in the other direction:
Bastion's range bonus makes blapping NPC's at range no problem, but what about closer NPC's that already have a little traversal built up?
I think Bastion should confer a 25-30% Tracking/Exp Velocity bonus as well. I think this fits the damage application theme, without turning it into a Dread Blapper.
The risk there is putting too much damage application on a single module. I agree that the tank ability combine with a focus on long range combat has a bit of a dichotomy to it but I'm not sure I like the idea of a holy-trifecta of range/tank/tracking either. There are four points on the square, the last being damage modification. That is deliberately absent- and I think we can agree it should be. That absence means that an increase in application, not just projection, wouldn't be excessive. I'd argue that it would compliment the theme of this new ship beautifully.
The ship's theoretical maximum DPS would stay the same, but the ability to project and apply that DPS increases greatly in Bastion Mode. It makes sense, doesn't it? |
|

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:30:00 -
[1821] - Quote
Marauders as subcap dreqds was always a bad idea. It disgusts me to see CCP soothing the bleating lambs by giving them a ship better in places it didn't need improving and worse in every other way. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:31:00 -
[1822] - Quote
Xer Jin wrote:*redacted to avoid quoting a rant-post*
They are better than Pirate Battleships, at tanking and damage projection and they do have good resists, just not as good as smaller T2 ships (no T2 Battleship has full resist bonuses).
Not all T2 ships have significantly better capacitor, also these fit half the guns of most ships which is a major cap savings.
T2 is not supposed to be strictly better than pirate or faction. (from this dev-blog) |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:36:00 -
[1823] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Xer Jin wrote:*redacted to avoid quoting a rant-post* They are better than Pirate Battleships, at tanking and damage projection and they do have good resists, just not as good as smaller T2 ships (no T2 Battleship has full resist bonuses). Not all T2 ships have significantly better capacitor, also these fit half the guns of most ships which is a major cap savings. T2 is not supposed to be strictly better than pirate or faction. (from this dev-blog)
they are worse in every scenario of usage, regardless of an individual quality. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:37:00 -
[1824] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:they are worse in every scenario of usage, regardless of an individual quality.
Personally I disagree. Several other people seem to agree with me. You are welcome to post proof and supporting evidence (preferably with exact numbers rather than eyeballed estimates) as this can only help the re-balancing process.
It's also worth noting that however these turn out the Pirate Battleships and Black-Ops Battleships are going to be balanced against these (possibly at the same time, we don't know what else is coming for Winter).
This means the former are likely to get a nerf at the top end and a buff at the low end. The Black-Ops class is probably in for a re-work. CCP talked before about splitting the class into combat and support roles so it'll be interesting to see if that holds up.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:There are four points on the square, the last being damage modification. That is deliberately absent- and I think we can agree it should be. That absence means that an increase in application, not just projection, wouldn't be excessive. I'd argue that it would compliment the theme of this new ship beautifully.
The ship's theoretical maximum DPS would stay the same, but the ability to project and apply that DPS increases greatly in Bastion Mode. It makes sense, doesn't it?
I'd be somewhat interested in what square you're talking about. I would say these ships are trading a little raw damage (they're still pretty high DPS) and mobility for overall heavier tank and better damage application along with pretty nice base ship stats. The Bastion further expands this with more tank and more damage projection at the expense of mobility.
The reason I would argue we don't need damage application is because this frees up module slots for things like Tracking Computers, Target Painters, Tracking Enhancers, ect. With the addition of a tracking bonus this would still be true but you could get rather ridiculous tracking out of the ship and potentially make it too much of a threat to smaller ship classes in PvP. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5748
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:41:00 -
[1825] - Quote
"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"
Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:43:00 -
[1826] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"
Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine.
These ships have never been focused on mobility, if you want a "Skirmish Doctrine" then I suggest A-HAC gangs. |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2682
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:44:00 -
[1827] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Xer Jin wrote:*redacted to avoid quoting a rant-post* They are better than Pirate Battleships, at tanking and damage projection and they do have good resists, just not as good as smaller T2 ships (no T2 Battleship has full resist bonuses). Not all T2 ships have significantly better capacitor, also these fit half the guns of most ships which is a major cap savings. T2 is not supposed to be strictly better than pirate or faction. (from this dev-blog) t hey are worse in every scenario of usage, regardless of an individual quality. if the marauder is the BEST at doing something.... what does it matter if its drawbacks make it so it would be more EFFECTIVE to use another ship in that scenario? Might as well have a pickaxe thats lighter and easier to swing then any other - but shatters when it hits rock. Oh yeah, its best in one catagory...
The bolded part is untrue. You wanna take a pirate ship other than the Rattlesnake into a DED 10/10 solo?
|

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1187
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:45:00 -
[1828] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:-anoms? -no, bastion or not 13 Sensor makes it a joke still -structure grind? -maybe for lols and giggles -can it be done well/better in Vindi or Navy Mega? -sure -what's the point of this ship for while in null? -none except trying bastion stuff -can you fly it?- yes -do you fly it and where?- no way I waste a penny for, already wasted training time and isk in skills, that's enough! -would you fly it if current version hits TQ and where? -nope -what is this ship worth for in your opinion? -high sec PVE and POS shooting -Why am I even posting? -duno, maybe because I can
What the hell does sensor strength have to do with anom running? It's completely irrelevant unless you're shooting rats that jam and bastion gives you EW immunity anyways so you don't have to care about jams. Locking speed is determined by scan resolution and 120 scan res is not a bad number for a battleship. The Vindicator has 100, for comparison.
Yes please explain me more about Guristas null sec rating with uber Marauders with bastion module. That really makes all the difference and interesting indeed.  *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:48:00 -
[1829] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"
Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine. These ships have never been focused on mobility, if you want a "Skirmish Doctrine" then I suggest A-HAC gangs.
Megathrons wern't built for frigate gangs either but I fly in them non the less. The kronos will do just fine with skirmish fleets. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:56:00 -
[1830] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"
Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine. These ships have never been focused on mobility, if you want a "Skirmish Doctrine" then I suggest A-HAC gangs. Megathrons wern't built for frigate gangs either but I fly in them non the less. The kronos will do just fine with skirmish fleets. He gets it. If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:58:00 -
[1831] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium.........
They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top.
Would it not be possible to give them them full T2 resists so they don't get Alpha off the field as easily before they go into bastion mode and simply lower the individual resistances the bastion mode would give to the individual resistances to avoid them being over the top? Given that the main tank hp type is being nerfed I don't see why giving them full T2 base resists be an issue if you implemented the bastion mode in the above fashion. Simply adjust the tank resist bonus profiles so they match the current bastion mode resist profile you currently propose. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
425
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:58:00 -
[1832] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:baltec1 wrote:
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP. I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls. I track things just fine. And? Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me. There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy.
Your reasoning behind all of this falls into large gangs that a kronos would have no reason being in. How many bonused active tanked ships do you make fleet comps for?
Stay on subject, I don't care how you use your "friends" as a crutch.
Bottom line; all the advantages a marauder once had in pvp are now gone or were never fixed. Once this patch goes live every pilot in eve will understand that a pvper in a marauder is either bait or doesn't plan to fight. The whole reason people are up in arms about these ships is because none of their problems were fixed. They also cost more than the typical shield megathron......
After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp! |

baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:03:00 -
[1833] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:baltec1 wrote:
I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway I dont use webs on any of my mega Its not that far from other battleships I have flown mega with less ehp these can get Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Not smart Can't track Its' worse Poor fit If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP. I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls. I track things just fine. And? Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me. There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy. Your reasoning behind all of this falls into large gangs that a kronos would have no reason being in. How many bonused active tanked ships do you make fleet comps for? Stay on subject, I don't care how you use your "friends" as a crutch. Bottom line; all the advantages a marauder once had in pvp are now gone or were never fixed. Once this patch goes live every pilot in eve will understand that a pvper in a marauder is either bait or doesn't plan to fight. The whole reason people are up in arms about these ships is because none of their problems were fixed. They also cost more than the typical shield megathron...... After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
This might be shocking to many but the CFC do run ten man gangs. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:03:00 -
[1834] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
Then do so, marauders were never PvP ships from the start, it was possible to PvP in them by some interesting fits, but there core was always a PvE ship. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:07:00 -
[1835] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
Then do so, marauders were never PvP ships from the start, it was possible to PvP in them by some interesting fits, but there core was always a PvE ship. While they were never intended or designed as such this marauder rebalance is supposed to address that...and by simply waving people's concerns away by stating they were never meant to PVP adds nothing to resolving the issue now which is PVP balance. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
425
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:08:00 -
[1836] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
Then do so, marauders were never PvP ships from the start, it was possible to PvP in them by some interesting fits, but there core was always a PvE ship.
Personal favorite was the dual rep kronos. Could tank 2 vindis.......
Or the dual XL Ancil vargur that could nearly perma tank small gangs as long as it was fed cap boosters.
They were great for small gangs or 1 vs 5 situations.
CCP will probably agree with you there. They will now be PVE monsters and forever forgotten in the world of PVP. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:09:00 -
[1837] - Quote
Nano Quantum wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
Then do so, marauders were never PvP ships from the start, it was possible to PvP in them by some interesting fits, but there core was always a PvE ship. While they were never intended or designed as such this marauder rebalance is supposed to address that...and by simply waving people's concerns away by stating they were never meant to PVP adds nothing to resolving the issue now which is PVP balance. Please link where that said they were going to make marauders PvP ships. Edit:NM it was in the OP, and that is so horribly wrong to try to use this bastion module as a increased PvP excuse. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:13:00 -
[1838] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Please link where that said they were going to make marauders PvP ships.
How about the OP of this thread?
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well.
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
425
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:14:00 -
[1839] - Quote
Nano Quantum wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
Then do so, marauders were never PvP ships from the start, it was possible to PvP in them by some interesting fits, but there core was always a PvE ship. While they were never intended or designed as such this marauder rebalance is supposed to address that...and by simply waving people's concerns away by stating they were never meant to PVP adds nothing to resolving the issue now which is PVP balance.
In order to be viable they need:
+More Sensor Strength +Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas) +Larger drone bay and bandwidth +Less tank more dps(last priority)
If CCP wants these to be mini dreads they it would make sense to increase their DPS output. Who cares how "applied" it is. The towers aren't moving.....
I understand people are screaming for more dps but realistically the marauders were fine before this update. All they needed was a sensor strength upgrade!
I'm more than happy to help create ideas for PVP balance. Increasing their tank as much as they did though was a bit much.... |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:16:00 -
[1840] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Nano Quantum wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: After this patch I would much rather fly a megathron for pvp!
Then do so, marauders were never PvP ships from the start, it was possible to PvP in them by some interesting fits, but there core was always a PvE ship. While they were never intended or designed as such this marauder rebalance is supposed to address that...and by simply waving people's concerns away by stating they were never meant to PVP adds nothing to resolving the issue now which is PVP balance. Please link where that said they were going to make marauders PvP ships. Op third paragraph Quote:We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy. This is not a PVE re-balance of the ships as they are not lacking in that department it is and as most who have noted the concerns are about the changes making sense for a PVP role. If anything all it does is mix things up for PVE and turning them into PVE monsters all the more. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:20:00 -
[1841] - Quote
Quote:
+More Sensor Strength +Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas) +Larger drone bay and bandwidth +Less tank more dps(last priority)
If CCP wants these to be mini dreads they it would make sense to increase their DPS output. Who cares how "applied" it is. The towers aren't moving.....
I understand people are screaming for more dps but realistically the marauders were fine before this update. All they needed was a sensor strength upgrade!
I'm more than happy to help create ideas for PVP balance. Increasing their tank as much as they did though was a bit much....
Dont need more sensor strength Dont need webs Dont need more drones Its the massive tank and better damage projection that makes the ship interesting. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:21:00 -
[1842] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"
Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine.
"Look at the new mobility of Marauders now! Skirmishing in PvP!"
Please sir, please help me find my sides- I think they're just leaving Earth orbit now.
Putting these new Marauders into a 'skirmish fleet' is exactly like expecting a quad-plated abaddon to be able to keep up with a bunch of nano-stabbers. It's not happening.
In order for the Marauder to be useful in PvP it has to deploy Bastion Mode. Which makes it stationary. Which makes it far more of a 'point defense'/area denial style fighter, than a skirmisher. As a result, "Marauders" end up with the MOST MISLEADING NAME IN THE ENTIRE GAME. They're not even trying to make it better at PvP, and I don't think the devs have TRIED the new Marauders in PvP in their internal server. The only thing to my knowledge they've even really tested is the Kronos. In L4s.
These ships are completely paradoxical.
"Let's give them MJD bonuses, so they can blip 100km away when a threat appears!" "Let's give them the Bastion Module, so they can become completely immobile for an entire minute and get extreme tank!"
At extreme range, tank is pointless. When this tank is necessary, RANGE is pointless. There's no synergy! The new Marauders are barely about 'harassment' or 'skirmishing'. They're about tactically redeploying themselves around a battlefield and trying (but failing) to be 'mini dreadnoughts'. And people have pointed out- look at how much they had to increase mass and decrease mobility. And how they didn't change base sensor strength at all despite that LITERALLY BEING THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT THROWN AROUND MORE IN PVP RIGHT NOW. This is a clumsy change. There's no "Yes, this makes sense" factor regarding the stat alterations, in my opinion. They're extremely forced. The only improvements are in the PvE arena, and they're improving in areas that Marauders are already damn near perfect in- it's a moot point, basically.
See my posts here and here for possible alterations to Marauders that would actually make them competent in PvP, in situations that aren't so overwhelmingly niche so as to just not happen, period. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
366
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:30:00 -
[1843] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.
This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:32:00 -
[1844] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:
+More Sensor Strength +Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas) +Larger drone bay and bandwidth +Less tank more dps(last priority)
If CCP wants these to be mini dreads they it would make sense to increase their DPS output. Who cares how "applied" it is. The towers aren't moving.....
I understand people are screaming for more dps but realistically the marauders were fine before this update. All they needed was a sensor strength upgrade!
I'm more than happy to help create ideas for PVP balance. Increasing their tank as much as they did though was a bit much....
Dont need more sensor strength Dont need webs Dont need more drones Its the massive tank and better damage projection that makes the ship interesting. Sensor Strength has always been an issue with Marauders used in a PVP role. It is being addressed by the bastion E-war immunity.The issue with webs can be compensated by fleet composition I agree. As for the drones bays both bandwidth and drone capacity is being nerfed which is a valid concern in both dps and in maintaining the previous PVE style role some may enjoy. I'm sure it not matter much to you if they were simply gotten rid off since you stated you don't use them. The last thing is entirely the strong point and interesting part of the ships now even more so I agree.
|

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:37:00 -
[1845] - Quote
Aglais wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.
This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me. Pretty much my take on it as well and the stated 60 seconds bastion mode needs to be seriously debated and tested. Id' argue a 45 second cycle time serves the "bastion mode" downside while not turning the ship into an Alpha meat before it enters and when it comes out of the mode.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7803
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:43:00 -
[1846] - Quote
Aglais wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.
This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me.
Its just like any other ship in that reguard. The difference is that it has some tools to get out of these sticky situations that most others dont have. People need to be more creative with these things. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:50:00 -
[1847] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aglais wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Just because its called a skirmish fleet doesnt mean the fleet spends all of its time zipping about.
This is not a false statement. The problem though, is how the bastion module forces the Marauder into staying in one location for a set period of time. If things go south, they're suddenly at a massive disadvantage and can't do much about it until the module finishes cycling. This IMO is what clashes the most with the whole 'skirmish' idea to me. Its just like any other ship in that reguard. The difference is that it has some tools to get out of these sticky situations that most others dont have. People need to be more creative with these things. I agree with the above and have come around to the idea of the bastion mode, but as most things in EVE and life the devil is in the details. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:54:00 -
[1848] - Quote
It was a nice surprise to find out that you can activate your micro jump drive while in bastion mode, if you time it correctly you will micro jump as you are leaving bastion mode.
Or so CCP Ytterbium has implied. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:58:00 -
[1849] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:It was a nice surprise to find out that you can activate your micro jump drive while in bastion mode, if you time it correctly you will micro jump as you are leaving bastion mode.
Or so CCP Ytterbium has implied. Yeah that is what I have understood as well just waiting on confirmation, but since the bastion module does not offline modules other than base speed...well the implications can be interesting. |

Javius Rong
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:10:00 -
[1850] - Quote
The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.
So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.
Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7804
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:16:00 -
[1851] - Quote
Javius Rong wrote:The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.
So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.
Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.
You just made more pirate battleships with more tank. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:16:00 -
[1852] - Quote
Javius Rong wrote:The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.
So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.
Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.
i think i am coming to terms with the changes.... and since i want to use marauders this will be what i do with them....
i shall multibox L4s with them. The reasoning is this: it will be easy to jump in, bastion, turn on self rep, then just lock up and fire. No capchains, no tank management, so very easy for multiboxers. Then i will un-bastion and mwd to gate since coordinating mjds while multiboxing is at best mildly inconvenient.
a lot of poeple will think this is OP for multiboxers, but whatever.
maybe set up one of the ships with an MJD in order to kill the frigates
actually, i could just set them all up with MJDs if i had all characters follow one in order to set align, it will take a little longer but it works for sync'ed gate warps so it should work here |

Javius Rong
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:20:00 -
[1853] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Javius Rong wrote:
Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back.
You just made more pirate battleships with more tank.
Yeah never said my idea was worth a damn.... Just seems like this mini-Dread is in conceived. |

Vayn Baxtor
Ultra High Ping Crew
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:39:00 -
[1854] - Quote
I did not delve too much in the MJD playstyle this Marauder will offer but my only gripe with the MJD subject is that we might see specific alliances fielding these in today's "oh so amazing" battles that only involve people bouncing around from one safespot/ongrid spot to another. Of course we have yet to see Marauders be fielded in large numbers, but somewhat we've seen that happen with T3 ships, so it is possible.
I don't know. The actual MJD beef is cool, but I have the feeling this could backfire. Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:47:00 -
[1855] - Quote
A Marauder is a T2 specialized ship. Specialized in doing PVE, in PVE should it be "King of the hill" not more, not less. Not every ship must be balanced or raped to be in a PVP role, which never was planed for (sensor strenght). Most users of these ship, use them as a PVE platform. Only a few used them at PVP in a niche PVP (WH Kronos).
So balance them as a PVE monster, but not with a bastion mode. A ship hull with these pricetag, should stay for what the name Marauder say. I must not the fastet one, not the one with the most ehp or the best tank. It should be the best in the niche it's designed for. The Marauder stays for: PVE.
Every ship class has it's role, i would enjoy to fly my Marauders with my friends and i don't like the idea, to use an other ship for a PVE incursion with my friends. I don't want to hear: bring a Pirate BS to the incursion, we can't remote rep you anymore.
If you want to PVP use an other ship class, there are enough out there. Pirate ships i have heard, should be good at it or designed for? Or are the Pirate BS better for PVE than a dedicated ship? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:03:00 -
[1856] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Nano Quantum wrote:While they were never intended or designed as such this marauder rebalance is supposed to address that...and by simply waving people's concerns away by stating they were never meant to PVP adds nothing to resolving the issue now which is PVP balance. Please link where that said they were going to make marauders PvP ships. Edit:NM it was in the OP, and that is so horribly wrong to try to use this bastion module as a increased PvP excuse.
Key word in the OP would be "niche". These are not supposed to be general use PvP ships.
Zeus Maximo wrote:In order to be viable they need:
+More Sensor Strength +Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas) +Larger drone bay and bandwidth +Less tank more dps(last priority)
If CCP wants these to be mini dreads they it would make sense to increase their DPS output. Who cares how "applied" it is. The towers aren't moving.....
I understand people are screaming for more dps but realistically the marauders were fine before this update. All they needed was a sensor strength upgrade!
I'm more than happy to help create ideas for PVP balance. Increasing their tank as much as they did though was a bit much....
I think what you're looking for is the Pirate Battleships.
Also you're focusing on the wrong thing about "Mini-dreads". They are not supposed to be DPS machines, as stated in the OP.
The fact that you and several others are claiming that getting the web bonus back (which was only removed from two of them!) will make them PvP viable proves how hilariously OP that bonus is.
Hanna Cyrus wrote:A Marauder is a T2 specialized ship. Specialized in doing PVE, in PVE should it be "King of the hill" not more, not less. Not every ship must be balanced or raped to be in a PVP role, which never was planed for (sensor strenght). Most users of these ship, use them as a PVE platform. Only a few used them at PVP in a niche PVP (WH Kronos).
So balance them as a PVE monster, but not with a bastion mode. A ship hull with these pricetag, should stay for what the name Marauder say. I must not the fastet one, not the one with the most ehp or the best tank. It should be the best in the niche it's designed for. The Marauder stays for: PVE.
Every ship class has it's role, i would enjoy to fly my Marauders with my friends and i don't like the idea, to use an other ship for a PVE incursion with my friends. I don't want to hear: bring a Pirate BS to the incursion, we can't remote rep you anymore.
If you want to PVP use an other ship class, there are enough out there. Pirate ships i have heard, should be good at it or designed for? Or are the Pirate BS better for PVE than a dedicated ship?
The Bastion Mode is great for PvE, not so much Incursion PvE but then again if you're bringing these to incursions you're also bringing 4 utility highs. If there's another one in fleet you can Cap-Chain and MWD around like maniacs with short range guns and not have to worry about cap.
Plus they still have higher base resists than other battleships further improving them for incursions.
I think they still need a bit of tweaking between the hull and Bastion, and with what Bastion actually does, but overall I think this is a solid base idea.
Also the CSM got to see some of the WIP Tranforms and said they look awesome!  |

NextDarkKnight
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:08:00 -
[1857] - Quote
Hmmm.. CCP can you consider only cutting the drone bandwidth while the new module is deployed or fitted? I think that will make some people happy that don't or wont' use the module. It'll let the ship have more customization options. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
428
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:09:00 -
[1858] - Quote
Aglais wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Marauders are going to be useless for PVE/PVP!"
Except I can think of how amazing a Kronos would be running Guristas sanctums, or how great these ships would be in an elite "Top-Gun" style skirmish doctrine. "Look at the new mobility of Marauders now! Skirmishing in PvP!" Please sir, please help me find my sides- I think they're just leaving Earth orbit now. Putting these new Marauders into a 'skirmish fleet' is exactly like expecting a quad-plated abaddon to be able to keep up with a bunch of nano-stabbers. It's not happening. In order for the Marauder to be useful in PvP it has to deploy Bastion Mode. Which makes it stationary. Which makes it far more of a 'point defense'/area denial style fighter, than a skirmisher. As a result, "Marauders" end up with the MOST MISLEADING NAME IN THE ENTIRE GAME. They're not even trying to make it better at PvP, and I don't think the devs have TRIED the new Marauders in PvP in their internal server. The only thing to my knowledge they've even really tested is the Kronos. In L4s. These ships are completely paradoxical. "Let's give them MJD bonuses, so they can blip 100km away when a threat appears!" "Let's give them the Bastion Module, so they can become completely immobile for an entire minute and get extreme tank!" At extreme range, tank is pointless. When this tank is necessary, RANGE is pointless. There's no synergy! The new Marauders are barely about 'harassment' or 'skirmishing'. They're about tactically redeploying themselves around a battlefield and trying (but failing) to be 'mini dreadnoughts'. And people have pointed out- look at how much they had to increase mass and decrease mobility. And how they didn't change base sensor strength at all despite that LITERALLY BEING THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT THROWN AROUND MORE IN PVP RIGHT NOW. This is a clumsy change. There's no "Yes, this makes sense" factor regarding the stat alterations, in my opinion. They're extremely forced. The only improvements are in the PvE arena, and they're improving in areas that Marauders are already damn near perfect in- it's a moot point, basically. See my posts here and here for possible alterations to Marauders that would actually make them competent in PvP, in situations that aren't so overwhelmingly niche so as to just not happen, period.
I could +1 this all day |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
559
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:22:00 -
[1859] - Quote
I still think that : 1- Speed shouldn't be nerfed. Loosing time this way is paradoxical for the ultime PvE ship. :/
2- Tractor beam range should match the weapon's range. How good is it to kill a BS at 95km with a golem if I can't loot it ? Do I need to MJD just to reach it ?
3- Last but not least, there has to be a variation of the bastion module that drastically cuts tracking and sig resolution but increases damages, for structure shooting. G££ <= Me |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
63
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:27:00 -
[1860] - Quote
my challenge to all the forum warriors now is to provide me an example of why I would fly a new marauder over a t1 or pirate ship.
Please consider: solo vs fleet comp cost tank and dps utility
for advanced posters: reasons to fly this in a nullsec/wormhole actual willingness to engage a target Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 22:55:00 -
[1861] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I still think that : 1- Speed shouldn't be nerfed. Loosing time this way is paradoxical for the ultime PvE ship. :/
2- Tractor beam range should match the weapon's range. How good is it to kill a BS at 95km with a golem if I can't loot it ? Do I need to MJD just to reach it ?
3- Last but not least, there has to be a variation of the bastion module that drastically cuts tracking and sig resolution but increases damages, for structure shooting.
Point 2 and 3, come on, for a 1b hull, that's the minimum we could get !
1. It's a tiny speed nerf, especially if you use the MJD/triangles or use a MWD.
2. Sure, why not? Though honestly increasing their tractor range isn't really going to break anything.
3. No, we do not need "Dread-blap Junior". For reference a Moros only does about 1500 DPS without Siege. Dreads were removed from high-sec for a reason. |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:04:00 -
[1862] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:[quote=Onictus][quote=Zeus Maximo]
What is easier to hit? A moving target or a stationary one?
.
It depends if you are moving or not as what matters is transversal and that number is the same for you and the stationary target. Assuming someone orbiting then it is likely that they maintain a higher transversal on a stationary target than a moving one and thus the stationary target is harder to hit. Also i read quite a lot of your posts and they are pretty much wrong in every way possible. |

Vayn Baxtor
Ultra High Ping Crew
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:04:00 -
[1863] - Quote
Quote: A Marauder is a T2 specialized ship. Specialized in doing PVE, in PVE should it be "King of the hill" not more, not less. Not every ship must be balanced or raped to be in a PVP role, which never was planed for (sensor strenght). Most users of these ship, use them as a PVE platform. Only a few used them at PVP in a niche PVP (WH Kronos).
So balance them as a PVE monster, but not with a bastion mode. A ship hull with these pricetag, should stay for what the name Marauder say. I must not the fastet one, not the one with the most ehp or the best tank. It should be the best in the niche it's designed for. The Marauder stays for: PVE.
Every ship class has it's role, i would enjoy to fly my Marauders with my friends and i don't like the idea, to use an other ship for a PVE incursion with my friends. I don't want to hear: bring a Pirate BS to the incursion, we can't remote rep you anymore.
If you want to PVP use an other ship class, there are enough out there. Pirate ships i have heard, should be good at it or designed for? Or are the Pirate BS better for PVE than a dedicated ship?
Another thing to add: Thing is that PVE ships always bleed into PVP. I am just saying it might be advisable to keep them niche or else we will have more PVE kings bringing imbalance to PVP - To a point how T3 can dominate the field once somebody loads a fleet full of them. T3 should be balanced some time around so there is no reason to sidetrack on that subject.
But things really need to be thought through. Aside to the literal meaning of Tiericide, I was under the impression Tiericide should not only make unpopular ships more popular but also balance it in a way that we don't just people grabbing the same ships just because they facemelt stuff with ease. Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |

TZeer
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:06:00 -
[1864] - Quote
- A battleship - Costs $$$$$ - Market it as a tool for smaller fights and gangs - Give it a module that locks it into place for 60 sec - Scan time of <5 sec with probes.... - Single frig can easily move 100km in 20 sec
Yepp, yeah, I can really see this ship work great....
 |

Baggo Hammers
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:07:00 -
[1865] - Quote
I look forward to these changes. Almost a "Transformers" quality. Now drones that can be transformed! If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. |

Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
189
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:25:00 -
[1866] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE. Can you do the same with a deadspace or officer LAR fit Kronos or Paladin?
Otherwise, just more evidence of shield dominance What else is new? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:25:00 -
[1867] - Quote
TZeer wrote:- A battleship - Costs $$$$$ - Market it as a tool for smaller fights and gangs - Give it a module that locks it into place for 60 sec - Scan time of <5 sec with probes.... - Single frig can easily move 100km in 20 sec Yepp, yeah, I can really see this ship work great.... 
PvE focused. Niche PvP use. Not a zomg-god ship.
Working as intended.
Vayn Baxtor wrote:Another thing to add: Thing is that PVE ships always bleed into PVP. I am just saying it might be advisable to keep them niche or else we will have more PVE kings bringing imbalance to PVP - To a point how T3 can dominate the field once somebody loads a fleet full of them. T3 should be balanced some time around so there is no reason to sidetrack on that subject.
But things really need to be thought through. Aside to the literal meaning of Tiericide, I was under the impression Tiericide should not only make unpopular ships more popular but also balance it in a way that we don't just people grabbing the same ships just because they facemelt stuff with ease.
Couple of points:
T3s were never intended to be PvE ships, the player base looked at them initially and said "SP loss!?!?! No way anyone would PvP in that!!!". Then they realized that they didn't die very often or easily and that you could mitigate the SP loss by only training the skills to 4 along with a few other things and T3 fleets happened.
You are indeed correct about what the tiericide is supposed to accomplish and is indeed accomplishing. However, some people in this thread still want every ship to have the best DPS/tank/ect 
Baggo Hammers wrote:I look forward to these changes. Almost a "Transformers" quality. Now drones that can be transformed!
What, the little X's turn into +'s or something?  |

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
597
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:38:00 -
[1868] - Quote
It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....
It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around. Not working as intended.
Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
99
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:46:00 -
[1869] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....
It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around. Not working as intended.
Did you even read the OP? The entire point of these is a PvE focus with niche PvP application  |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
428
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:54:00 -
[1870] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:[quote=Onictus][quote=Zeus Maximo]
What is easier to hit? A moving target or a stationary one?
. It depends if you are moving or not as what matters is transversal and that number is the same for you and the stationary target. Assuming someone orbiting then it is likely that they maintain a higher transversal on a stationary target than a moving one and thus the stationary target is harder to hit. Also i read quite a lot of your posts and they are pretty much wrong in every way possible.
Obviously transversal matters.... I stated that because a marauder will be a sitting duck at 0 speed meaning it will be easier to hit. Doesn't that make perfect sense in pvp? Are you that guy that sits at zero speed during a fight? Hell, you should do that with an actual dread on field.
Am I wrong here too? Sorry I see the bigger picture and don't get personal :) I want these things fixed in the right manner! |
|

stoicfaux
3079
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:01:00 -
[1871] - Quote
marVLs wrote:But why just why those tank bonuses in bastion? For what they are?
- LVL4? they don't need more tank
CCP Ytterbium You forget that doing over 9000! missions over and over again is boring, so players want to do them with minimal effort, why should i jump in pockets, get reduction in damage because of falloff etc. when i can go with RNI that will aplly more damage and better and in more relaxing way that Marauders. Because you can fit a cheap Pithum C medium shield booster on a Vargur or Golem and basically perma-boost your way through missions? Less micromanagement, greatly reduced fitting, etc.
As for the RNI, with the Golem, you can fit two hydraulic bay thrusters and never have to volley count again. Plus ~15km/s missiles really screws up NPC defenders. You're immune to defenders at 70+km (maybe closer) and within about two seconds of flight time, their effective hit rate drops roughly in half or less. That extra 25% missile (18km/s missiles) could result in even screwier NPC defender behavior.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:05:00 -
[1872] - Quote
I love the changes, with the exception of maybe adding a few points of CPU to the Paladin.
But I'm still going to dig in my heels and request an application buff to pair with the projection buff. I want to effectively engage close targets as well. The prospect, as was earlier described, of jumping into an NPC Swarm is pretty cool... but for a Tach Pali requires a bit more tracking. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:08:00 -
[1873] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Maybe it's the lack of versatility? A tengu is good at more stuff, so why not just invest once? Perhaps it's just a mindset thing. People just don't think to do it. Speak to most people and they'll say, "battleships don't work in wormholes". But I use them. The fact is that they do work.
They certainly work in fleets for C5 anom running (non-escalation). We find them a really good option for pilots without the skills for T3s or command ships, once they've grown out of battlecruisers.
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:13:00 -
[1874] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable ), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE. Can you do the same with a deadspace or officer LAR fit Kronos or Paladin? Otherwise, just more evidence of shield dominance  What else is new? 
You can rep a similar amount of DPS, the only problem is armor reppers are backloaded so you might explode before you actually rep any damage at all. |

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
597
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:13:00 -
[1875] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....
It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around. Not working as intended.
Did you even read the OP? The entire point of these is a PvE focus with niche PvP application  I read the OP, I disagree with the entire premise of prescribing tools and items for PvE and PvP, 1) PvE shouldn't be so far removed from PvP to be necessary to have different modules and tools, 2) A sandbox shouldn't be prescriptive in the devision between one or the other.
That's why maurders kind of sucked, PvE focused ships no one gave any ***** about. What they've gone and done is neither balanced sensibly for PvE or otherwise, it's just dumb. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:22:00 -
[1876] - Quote
Akvi Raiku wrote:I think it is not good to leave only 5 lightdrones at the same time as ship totally immobilized. 75m3 is better, but b\w still can be 25Mb\s. Other way.. Ok, maybe it's a variant to use a large neutralizers against fast targets, but.. CCP should research the idea to replace bonus for tractor beams with the bonus for range of energy neutralizers (only in bastion mode, only on paladin for ex) and with bonus for stasis webs' factor (only in bastion mode, only on kronos for ex). It will be very nice bonus change since bastion don't raise dps. So we'll get 2 marodeurs with more-pvp-specialization. Golem and Vargur still may have the bonus for tractors (pve orientation). Thus further reinforcing the 'armour is for PvP, shields are for PvE' effect that the low-mid slot distribution and fitting encourages. I do not think that this is a good idea. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
287
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:27:00 -
[1877] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Javius Rong wrote:The more I have thought about this the more I think CCP needs to do an HAC and come up with a version 2 proposal as this one still doesn't make sense.
So I want to sit still for 60 seconds in a 2billion+ ship??? Maybe the hi-sec carebears but I see no real use for 0.0 PvE or PvP.
Now a T2 resist BS with high close range damage (not projection) and some maneuverability. That might actually be useful. Maybe these should be turned into Dread killers and given a Nuet and sig radius bonus with some other draw back. You just made more pirate battleships with more tank.
As well as ECM immunity, a jump drive bonus (which I agree doesn't quite fit, unless you MJD away from the gang and let the enemy stream toward you one at a time) and a range bonus. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:32:00 -
[1878] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:I read the OP, I disagree with the entire premise of prescribing tools and items for PvE and PvP, 1) PvE shouldn't be so far removed from PvP to be necessary to have different modules and tools, 2) A sandbox shouldn't be prescriptive in the devision between one or the other.
That's why maurders kind of sucked, PvE focused ships no one gave any ***** about. What they've gone and done is neither balanced sensibly for PvE or otherwise, it's just dumb.
That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Personally I'm rather intrigued and kind of looking forward to Bastion mode and not having to worry much about tank in Level 4s.
Marauders, on the other hand, sucked because their disadvantages out-weighed their advantages for PvE or PvP and because the Pirate Battleships ended up stepping all over them in too many ways to count.
I am personally of the opinion that anything that's viable for either PvE or PvP will find uses in the other, more or less without exception now that we have everything from solo missions to 60 man fleet incursions.
I would, however, be a little disturbed if CCP either gave these full T2 resists as some have been suggesting, or made them out-DPS Pirate Battleships under any circumstances. The first leads to half-million+ EHP Battleship hulls that won't die and the second leads to power-creep. (really they're both power-creep, the first is just concerning in a specific way).
Finally, mission running is one of the most common activities in Eve. Pretty much everyone does it at some point or another and many make a career of it. What they do with the ISK they make from it is another thing entirely but they still make their isk doing missions. Supporting this with a ship that is exceptionally good at missions is not a bad thing, despite your misgivings toward a "PvE focused ship in a PvP focused game". |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
287
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:33:00 -
[1879] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:my challenge to all the forum warriors now is to provide me an example of why I would fly a new marauder over a t1 or pirate ship.
Please consider: solo vs fleet comp cost tank and dps utility
for advanced posters: reasons to fly this in a nullsec/wormhole actual willingness to engage a target
Challengeaccepted.jpg
[ Vargur, Because F*** the system! ]
800mm Repeating Autocannon II 800mm Repeating Autocannon II 800mm Repeating Autocannon II 800mm Repeating Autocannon II Bastion Module [Utility Slot] [Utility Slot] [Utility Slot]
Micro Jump Drive Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster Shield Boost Amp Shield Boost Amp
Damage Control II Gyrostab II Gyrostab II Gyrostab II Co-Processor
About 1000 DPS, about 4500 DPS tank with LG crystals and standard blue pill with one ASB, EWar proof, essentially neut proof, can only be killed by dreadnoughts or time (run out of cap boosters)
I believe I've made a point? If you're going to use a T1 its because of cost, and if you're going to use a Pirate VS its either a Mach for bumping, a Vindy for the web, or something absurd that tanks like a boss. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:37:00 -
[1880] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote: As it stands, this is an awesome ideagasm in need of a home. Nothing about the Marauder hulls (attack BS's), their abilities, or their description screams 'immobile brick'. This shows up in the fact that they all had to be HP, speed, drone and mass altered to offset this new module. That's indicative of cramming in functionality they're not built for, crowding out what they were trying to be good at.
The Marauders are not especially fast ships. The Golem and Paladin are slower than the base battleship hull, the Kronos is faster than the Mega but slower than the Navy Mega. Even the Vargur is only the same speed as the Tempest FI (and very slightly faster than a basic Tempest), and thus slower than a Typhoon FI (and the same speed as the base Typhoon). Marauders are not good at being fast, it's not their niche, and there's no reason to push them that way, given that the faction attack BSes are already filling that role. Making the Marauders all about applied damage and giving them a super-tank option makes them comfortably different from the navy/fleet faction battleships, especially as they have the bonus to MJD use to give them a special sort of mobility.
|
|

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:39:00 -
[1881] - Quote
They will be good at PVE, great in fact every mission runners dream.
They are however bad for PVE as content, here is a ship that breaks all game design possibilities.
Immune to E-war, no range problems can hit NPCs anywhere.
Can travel great distances quickly.
Massive tank makes omni tank easy, no need to even think about NPC damage profiles or tailoring ship fittings.
NPC ships don't scram so you can't even be pointed.
How do you make PVE that is challenging and interesting for these ships? How do you encourage diverse ship use when one ship is so strong?
This is not what PVE needs, it needs balanced communal content. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
623
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:45:00 -
[1882] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Personally I'm rather intrigued and kind of looking forward to Bastion mode and not having to worry much about tank in Level 4s.
...
I would, however, be a little disturbed if CCP either gave these full T2 resists as some have been suggesting, or made them out-DPS Pirate Battleships under any circumstances. The first leads to half-million+ EHP Battleship hulls that won't die and the second leads to power-creep. (really they're both power-creep, the first is just concerning in a specific way).
Finally, mission running is one of the most common activities in Eve. Pretty much everyone does it at some point or another and many make a career of it. What they do with the ISK they make from it is another thing entirely but they still make their isk doing missions. Supporting this with a ship that is exceptionally good at missions is not a bad thing, despite your misgivings toward a "PvE focused ship in a PvP focused game".
Wait, so when it concerns buffing a "PvP ship," power creep is a problem, but when it comes to making an idiot-proof battleship for PvE that, "saves you having to worry much about tank in Level 4s," that is not power creep? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:54:00 -
[1883] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:They will be good at PVE, great in fact every mission runners dream.
They are however bad for PVE as content, here is a ship that breaks all game design possibilities.
Immune to E-war, no range problems can hit NPCs anywhere.
Can travel great distances quickly.
Massive tank makes omni tank easy, no need to even think about NPC damage profiles or tailoring ship fittings.
NPC ships don't scram so you can't even be pointed.
How do you make PVE that is challenging and interesting for these ships? How do you encourage diverse ship use when one ship is so strong?
This is not what PVE needs, it needs balanced communal content.
Level 4 missions have never been "challenging" and only moderately interesting.
These aren't going to be the end-all be-all of Incursions by a long shot, and they seem unlikely to be better at most Null-sec PvE than a carrier or T1 fleet setup.
Ganthrithor wrote:Wait, so when it concerns buffing a "PvP ship," power creep is a problem, but when it comes to making an idiot-proof battleship for PvE that, "saves you having to worry much about tank in Level 4s," that is not power creep?
Power-creep in level 4 missions specifically or PvE in general is completion time. If these things don't significantly alter completion time from current Pirate Battleship or Marauder setups then they're fine.
I'd be a little concerned if I thought they were going to be better than current incursion setups but I don't think that's currently the case and the devs don't seem inclined to let them keep that level of tanking power.
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:The Marauders are not especially fast ships. The Golem and Paladin are slower than the base battleship hull, the Kronos is faster than the Mega but slower than the Navy Mega. Even the Vargur is only the same speed as the Tempest FI (and very slightly faster than a basic Tempest), and thus slower than a Typhoon FI (and the same speed as the base Typhoon). Marauders are not good at being fast, it's not their niche, and there's no reason to push them that way, given that the faction attack BSes are already filling that role. Making the Marauders all about applied damage and giving them a super-tank option makes them comfortably different from the navy/fleet faction battleships, especially as they have the bonus to MJD use to give them a special sort of mobility.
This guy gets it.
As much as I like the name "Marauders" I would be happy to see it changed if it would silence all of the completely missing the point "but it doesn't match the definition of it's name!!!" arguments. They never did that, someone at CCP thought Marauders was a cool name six years ago and so we got Marauders. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 00:57:00 -
[1884] - Quote
imo.... give us t2 version of maelstrom, abaddon, etc. Do what you will with marauders, but give us something.... |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:03:00 -
[1885] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:imo.... give us t2 version of maelstrom, abaddon, etc. Do what you will with marauders, but give us something....
Black-Ops are due to be split and there have been more requests than I can count for a KK paint-job Rokh. I would bet you'll get your wish, just not from Marauders =P |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
341
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:18:00 -
[1886] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...
May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.
if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much. Hence the range bonus. Also nothing forces you to jump so you're 100km away from the rats, you can always jump so you're actually closer to them or more able to apply better damage, hence the damage projection bonus on the Bastion module.
most of my marauder fits the bastion mod is stacking penalized to who cares much with respect to the range bonus.
I'll stick with my thoughts that in most missions the MJD is not a bonus. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:39:00 -
[1887] - Quote
TL;DR
As far as PvE usage, I just wanted the Marauder changes to make missioning more interesting :( I'm not sure whats on the table will do that. I Already sit still in one spot with an "unkillable" Rattlesnake, then have to fly off and get a Noctis to clean up. Bastion mode seems to be even more boring then a Sentry Rattler. Just saying.
---
I've been reading this thread as it updates. Not really grasping the mechanics regarding what will happen when players get their hands on these things on the real server, so I'm not sure I can offer hard numbers on what I'd like to see.
On that note, when I found out about Bastion mode, before reading anything on it, my brain tried to guess what It "should" behave like, and this was basically it:
* Bastion off, you fly it like a normal (as in what we have now) Marauder. I would only have expected some tweaks to happen, maybe making tractor beams reach MUCH further out, that sorta thing, and a more flexible MJD system would have been awesome, on a ship designed to pop around the battlefield via mini-jumps, ie, click MJD, and it charges up, and if re-clicked, it makes a "partial" jump, with a faster cooldown.
* Bastion mode for the "oh crap" moments in order to help the tank and * Bastion mode for "deathblossom" mode like in the Last Starfighter, as in:
- Bastion shifting grid or computer power from normal systems like propulsion, warp drive etc, and pumping it to either weapon system, or shield/armor repair system.
So like a script in targeting systems, you could up your tank to try and wait out the extra DPS, possibly draining extra cap in the process, so timing is still of the essence, or cutting weapon range, upping weapon power drain - or for missiles just upping fuel burn for extra flight speed at cost of range - to gain a DPS spike to remove DPS from the field.
Anyway, what I'm getting at, Bastion should be a PvE mode where you have to make a tactical decision to use, at the correct time, to get something done, not simply "turn on, activate FOF's, hit F1, go for lunch" (maybe possible on a Golem?), not because "it's too easy" but mainly cause it would be boring. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:46:00 -
[1888] - Quote
Arya Greywolf wrote: This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.
With scorch Mega Beam's optimal is greater than the optimal+falloff of 800mm ACs with Barrage. The Vargur's DPS won't exceed the Paladin's until about 75km out. Against a battleship target, the Paladin is simply superior. The availability of mids for Tracking Computers, as opposed to Tracking Enhancers in the Vargur largely negates the superior tracking the Vargur againt frigates with high transversal. The Vargur's advantages revolve around the X-ASB, not around better damage application.
Quote: And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.
They are both about equally susceptible to frigates that get within ~15km. This does argue that they deserve a similar size in drones.
Note that 'racial traits' argues about equally for both Amarr and Minmatar - the Minmatar battleships have bays about the same size as those carried by Amarr battleships.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:49:00 -
[1889] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:[The Vargur's advantages revolve around the X-ASB....
understatement of the century...
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:55:00 -
[1890] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Battle Cube wrote:imo.... give us t2 version of maelstrom, abaddon, etc. Do what you will with marauders, but give us something.... Black-Ops are due to be split and there have been more requests than I can count for a KK paint-job Rokh. I would bet you'll get your wish, just not from Marauders =P Finally a Khanid Abbadon... |
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:57:00 -
[1891] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?
minus drone bay minus webs minus sensor strength minus HP minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)
In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose. Sensor strength is not changing. Hit Points are dropping a little on some (Vargur), and remaining much the same on others. They're also getting smaller signatures, more sensor range, and better resolution (so faster locks). So, loss of web bonus (which only ever applied to two of the four ships) they are at worst about the same now as they will be once changed, outside of bastion, with the option of using bastion as well.
So, at worst the 'new marauders' will be no worse at everything than they are now except killing frigates inside web range, and only two of them see any change there.
But don't think for a moment that I'm trying to get in the way of your hyperbole - it's most entertaining.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 01:59:00 -
[1892] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:[ As much as I like the name "Marauders" I would be happy to see it changed if it would silence all of the completely missing the point "but it doesn't match the definition of it's name!!!" arguments. They never did that, someone at CCP thought Marauders was a cool name six years ago and so we got Marauders.
Here is some text taken directly from a marauder's description in the info screen:
"Marauder Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines."
Since this is what it says on the tin, this is what the players can be forgiven for expecting and demanding.
"prolonged deployment" argues for large cargo (check!) and drone bays (nerfed).
"support supression" argues for anti-frigate measures.
"behind enemy lines" implies "not in hisec empire space" - this is the singular area in which marauders spectacularly fail their PVE audience, and the one area not addressed in this proposal. Bastion mode does not get you "behind enemy lines". It gets you killed behind enemy lines.
Rather than redefine what a marauder is, let's design a marauder that can actually maraud.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:04:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
"behind enemy lines" implies "not in hisec empire space" - this is the singular area in which marauders spectacularly fail their PVE audience, and the one area not addressed in this proposal. Bastion mode does not get you "behind enemy lines". It gets you killed behind enemy lines.
Rather than redefine what a marauder is, let's design a marauder that can actually maraud.
I was thinking about this earlier, and I think this might silence the lore critics AND make lowsec missioning more viable:
Role Bonus: +2 Warp Stability.
It wouldn't be gamebreaking power creep to make these things a little harder to lock down. It would fit the established description, the name, and the idea of a mission boat with enhanced jumping capabilities. I think this would work awesome... |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:08:00 -
[1894] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: So that just leaves this ship being 'easy' due to not moving.... but then you have to deal with either MJD'ing multiple times to reach optimal ranges or gates..... or using an MWD which is really nasty slow with the new reduced speeds, so compared to a normal ship it is no easier as reaching your optimal will take much much longer even if you have amazing projection.
I don't think you realise just how the projection on these will be, nor how good the application will be. Also, the marauders will have (especially the Paladin) better cap recharge than standard battleships (or navy/fleet battleships, for that matter), and so will be able to run their MWDs for longer. Overall, I'll be very surprised if their effective applied DPS is anywhere near as poor as you seem to think it will be.
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:15:00 -
[1895] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: +Web bonus back(something that will lock down targets, open for ideas)
Again, half of them never had a web bonus. So, either you're trying to get something you never had under the guise that 'it was always there', or you're actually only talking about two of the ships, and if so, you should say so. It seems likely to me that you're saying "marauders need their webs back" to make it sound like all of them have been grievously nerfed by losing a bonus to webs - an untruth.
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:25:00 -
[1896] - Quote
Aglais wrote: In order for the Marauder to be useful in PvP it has to deploy Bastion Mode. Which makes it stationary. Which makes it far more of a 'point defense'/area denial style fighter, than a skirmisher. As a result, "Marauders" end up with the MOST MISLEADING NAME IN THE ENTIRE GAME.
Oh, rubbish. Check out the history of 'frigates'. The name once meant a ship with a role like that of a 20th century cruiser ('cruiser' was a direct replacement for the term). Then, in the 20th century it came to mean a dedicated anti-submarine ship, or a small destroyer. EVE's frigate are none of those. Or, how about 'battlecruiser'? Well, a battlecruiser was a ship class introduced shortly before WWI (and abandoned by the end of WWI as being a bad idea). These ships were the size of battleships, but sacrificed a small amount of firepower and a lot of armour for speed if British, and if German more firepower was sacrificed and only a little armour (again, for speed). The only EVE battlecruisers that are even close to the original meaning of the term are the 'attack battlecruisers', and they aren't very close - the ships that most closely fir the description are the various 'attack battleships', and they too aren't especially close. 'Marauder' is a rather looser term than people have been claiming here, and could fit a great many of EVE's combat ships - it would be good for all T1 frigates and assault frigates, for stealth bombers, for the T1 combat cruisers, HACs, half the recon ships, the battlecruisers, the Black Ops battleships, and the marauders, without even stretching the term.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:27:00 -
[1897] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
"behind enemy lines" implies "not in hisec empire space" - this is the singular area in which marauders spectacularly fail their PVE audience, and the one area not addressed in this proposal. Bastion mode does not get you "behind enemy lines". It gets you killed behind enemy lines.
Rather than redefine what a marauder is, let's design a marauder that can actually maraud.
I was thinking about this earlier, and I think this might silence the lore critics AND make lowsec missioning more viable: Role Bonus: +2 Warp Stability. It wouldn't be gamebreaking power creep to make these things a little harder to lock down. It would fit the established description, the name, and the idea of a mission boat with enhanced jumping capabilities. I think this would work awesome...
I didn't go that far in a previous proposal. I suggested that the ship could be immune to webs and the effects of scrams on the MWD.
This would mean that the ship could run back to gates and stay mobile enough to burn away from warp disruption bubbles, even while tackled.
Couple that with the "anti-support" web bonus at least on the armour versions) and it has a fighting chance of evading a gank attempt - by no means a guarantee, but a chance.
warp stability would of course be another feather in its cap, and this is a bonus that already exists on T1 mining ships as well as T2 haulers.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Flamespar
Woof Club
671
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:45:00 -
[1898] - Quote
Marauders should get a bonus to orbital strikes when in bastion mode. I can post on a forum, therefore I represent everyone. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 02:47:00 -
[1899] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
"behind enemy lines" implies "not in hisec empire space" - this is the singular area in which marauders spectacularly fail their PVE audience, and the one area not addressed in this proposal. Bastion mode does not get you "behind enemy lines". It gets you killed behind enemy lines.
Rather than redefine what a marauder is, let's design a marauder that can actually maraud.
I was thinking about this earlier, and I think this might silence the lore critics AND make lowsec missioning more viable: Role Bonus: +2 Warp Stability. It wouldn't be gamebreaking power creep to make these things a little harder to lock down. It would fit the established description, the name, and the idea of a mission boat with enhanced jumping capabilities. I think this would work awesome... I didn't go that far in a previous proposal. I suggested that the ship could be immune to webs and the effects of scrams on the MWD. This would mean that the ship could run back to gates and stay mobile enough to burn away from warp disruption bubbles, even while tackled. Couple that with the "anti-support" web bonus at least on the armour versions) and it has a fighting chance of evading a gank attempt - by no means a guarantee, but a chance. warp stability would of course be another feather in its cap, and this is a bonus that already exists on T1 mining ships as well as T2 haulers. Exactly, as it's a mechanic that already exists, specifically on ships designed for PvE/Hauling and is shown to be far from game-breaking, I thought it might have a remote chance of being implemented.
However, Scram immunity for any function or module I think WOULD be game-breaking in some applications...
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
106
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 03:00:00 -
[1900] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:most of my marauder fits the bastion mod is stacking penalized to who cares much with respect to the range bonus.
I'll stick with my thoughts that in most missions the MJD is not a bonus.
No one is forcing you to use the MJD but anything that lets you better apply damage is definitely a bonus.
As for the stacking penalties, meh, it's still a pretty good bonus, better than ~2-3 range modules.
DSpite Culhach wrote:TL;DR
As far as PvE usage, I just wanted the Marauder changes to make missioning more interesting :( I'm not sure whats on the table will do that. I Already sit still in one spot with an "unkillable" Rattlesnake, then have to fly off and get a Noctis to clean up. Bastion mode seems to be even more boring then a Sentry Rattler. Just saying.
There is absolutely nothing CCP can do to these ships that will make missions more interesting compared to currently available high end ships and fits.
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Here is some text taken directly from a marauder's description in the info screen:
"Marauder Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines."
Since this is what it says on the tin, this is what the players can be forgiven for expecting and demanding.
"prolonged deployment" argues for large cargo (check!) and drone bays (nerfed).
"support supression" argues for anti-frigate measures.
"behind enemy lines" implies "not in hisec empire space" - this is the singular area in which marauders spectacularly fail their PVE audience, and the one area not addressed in this proposal. Bastion mode does not get you "behind enemy lines". It gets you killed behind enemy lines.
Rather than redefine what a marauder is, let's design a marauder that can actually maraud.
Also, one of the main things that makes a ship good at suppressing support is damage projection and application, which these definitely have. Only half of them have ever been good against frigates and even then you can do that with two webs, you just have to spend the slots on it.
If what it takes to get to the point that most players consider them meeting that definition is something horrifically over-powered then I'd rather just see the definition changed. Somehow I don't see people taking any Battleship into low/null sec for PvE unless it's hilariously OP.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Finally a Khanid Abbadon...
There's a player-made reskin of one of those! |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
106
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 03:08:00 -
[1901] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I was thinking about this earlier, and I think this might silence the lore critics AND make lowsec missioning more viable:
Role Bonus: +2 Warp Stability.
It wouldn't be gamebreaking power creep to make these things a little harder to lock down. It would fit the established description, the name, and the idea of a mission boat with enhanced jumping capabilities. I think this would work awesome...
I was thinking about it and really my one weak and rather frail argument is that it removes the last hint of risk from missions but even that's a stretch. The MJD does that on its own since rats don't actually scram.
Overall I think I would support this, it's certainly completely failed to be game breaking on the Deep Space Transports so far...  |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
411
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 03:43:00 -
[1902] - Quote
The more I think about bastion module more I believe all 4 ships should become bastions class!
After all new marauders will be reduced to that module kinda make sense to me.
just change text info...built for controlling and show of force in empire space this hard tanking monsters are mighty opponent to ravaging hordes of very dangerous non pod pilots.capable of roaming even most dangerous parts of high sec space.
Advanced t2 engineering allow them to be ultimate hand holding machines., where pilot skills, experience and tactics are taking comfortable back seat.
...something along those lines...
And then give Marauder call to pirate ships they are and will be more in right to be named that, then current one are or will ever be. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Nick Parker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 04:45:00 -
[1903] - Quote
I like the idea of a marauder being able to use a MJD more effectively, but Bastion mode? Really? It would serve no purpose at all. Even if you can jump 100KM away from a hostile, (who will be screaming in corp chat I've got a marauder tackled) a single frigate can run up and tank your drones and you wont be able to do squat. So, you come out of BS mode, only to get tackled and loose a bill+ ship. And as many others have sad, god help you if a dread happens by.
Marauders have never served a role in eve, other than level 4 missioning. They were nerfed from the outset because of the fear of power creep inherent in T2. I think they were made just to please mission runners, and with the advent of the Noctis, they had no purpose.
How often do you see marauders in PVP anyways? Aside from the cost of, their bonuses were never that good. Basically, it was a top tier BS, with a web bonus or target painter bonus, with a tier 2 BS skin.
Marauders should be able to raid enemy territory, not turn into some sort of anime inspired weapon platform. Strip the tractor beam bonus for the MJD bonus, strip the crippling sensor strength penalty, and give them a defined role. Nerf their tank, but increase their damage and tracking to compensate. Or give them a huge increase in tank, but slow them down.
CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.
I'm rambling at this point, but no micro siege mobile suit bastion crud. Please. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1207
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 04:47:00 -
[1904] - Quote
Regardless of how idiotic I think these proposed changes are, CCP should have a long hard look at the skills required to fly a Marauder, compared to any other BS class ship.
I not going to jump onto EveMon, or even ingame now, and I know some enterprising soul will dig up the answer precisely, but for my trade alt (no spaceship command skills of note, or proper implants), needs 130 days of training just to climb into a Marauder, and that is just level 1 of a level 10 skill. So tack on who knows what for that. THEN tack on ANOTHER level 8 skill for the Bastion module. THEN tack on another level 5 skills to operate the MJD, which apparently crucial now to gain the range to target NPC's properly.
Now let's look at a Vindicator, or Nightmare, same character. Looks like 7 days to get two racial BS skills to 1, which is a level 8 skill.
I am not going to work out the precise numbers, but the skill path to maxing out a dual race BS to V is way way shorter than getting the Marauder and all attendant skills to V.
So bottom line, if someone is willing to put in a huge amount more training for a ship, it damn well better outperform a counterpart, and from what we are seeing here, the new stats don't even come close to that.
And CCP, don't take this as a suggestion to nerf the **** out of faction BS's, even though I know your "rebalance" team is dying to do just that. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 04:52:00 -
[1905] - Quote
Nick Parker wrote:I like the idea of a marauder being able to use a MJD more effectively, but Bastion mode? Really? It would serve no purpose at all. Even if you can jump 100KM away from a hostile, (who will be screaming in corp chat I've got a marauder tackled) a single frigate can run up and tank your drones and you wont be able to do squat. So, you come out of BS mode, only to get tackled and loose a bill+ ship. And as many others have sad, god help you if a dread happens by.
Marauders have never served a role in eve, other than level 4 missioning. They were nerfed from the outset because of the fear of power creep inherent in T2. I think they were made just to please mission runners, and with the advent of the Noctis, they had no purpose.
How often do you see marauders in PVP anyways? Aside from the cost of, their bonuses were never that good. Basically, it was a top tier BS, with a web bonus or target painter bonus, with a tier 2 BS skin.
Marauders should be able to raid enemy territory, not turn into some sort of anime inspired weapon platform. Strip the tractor beam bonus for the MJD bonus, strip the crippling sensor strength penalty, and give them a defined role. Nerf their tank, but increase their damage and tracking to compensate. Or give them a huge increase in tank, but slow them down.
CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.
I'm rambling at this point, but no micro siege mobile suit bastion crud. Please.
Congrats you have completely missed the point of the hull and CCP's proposal.
For reference:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
........
The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.
Emphasis mine.
Everything you are complaining about is working as intended. Skill intensive is not a good reason to have a Battleship class version of HAC. If you want high damage ships with less tank the Pirate Battleships are that way  |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 04:59:00 -
[1906] - Quote
Octoven "Essentially you are making a mini dread at a fraction of the cost and this is good how? To be honest, whats the deal with the MJD bonuses, are there seriously not enough people using your new mod that you have to stick it on T2s? The ships would have been a lot more useful retaining other bonuses such as sensor damp, web, tracking disrupt....stuff that really makes pvp nice. MJD may be a valid tactical module; however, they are pointless if you are fit to brawl in CQ with another BS. I would think your whole, "taking it our of one specific use and giving it other uses" would apply here as well. If you truly want that, then take the MJD bonus back off and put the other bonuses on. The whole idea of the mini-dread seems **** all ridiculous to me. I was really surprised you guys actually went all out to make us think it was going to be a proper re balance. Most were thinking of minor/major changes to bonuses and such like the other ships were, not redesigning the whole bloody ship. I would suggest taking these changes and applying them toward a future NEW T2 BS class :p "
Ganthrithor "Siege mode is unnecessary for PvE since power-creep has already made ratting stupidly easy in just about any mostly-fit PvE ship. It has zero usefulness for PvP applications since nobody is going to pay a billion isk to play a game of "warp in at 100, siege, get scrammed, not-be-able-to-MJD-away."I'm really confused about this whole thread-- these ships won't be meaningfully better for PvE (they don't do more damage, and other ships can already tank sites just fine) and their gimmick feature will be useless for PvP. Bottom line: go back to the drawing board and come up with a concept for these ships that lives up to their class name."
I like the ideas that these guys have of taking these MicroJumpy/mini-dreds and forming another T2 calss altogether and with minor buffs(sensor strength, more drones, noctis like bonuses, and T2 resists) leave the marauder class as is. This new type of ship might be the bomb. I am not hating on it or new content by any means. It's the 'we have a completely new concept and are trading out a working ship class and replacing it with a unknown and unasked for ship type. Again I ask CCP is it so hard to make a new class of ship for these new mods and concepts? Don't you the devs have the ability to create new content with out destroying in-game ship classes and calling it a re balance?
Dinsdale Pirannha
"Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this. The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE. He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to) This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic. I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour. When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets. This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing)"
Who is this?( "The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE.")? Is this the same as the cap nerfs, no amount of reason will change their minds. Is this what you mean? Or is it some thing else? |

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 05:06:00 -
[1907] - Quote
Nick Parker wrote:CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.
You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 05:22:00 -
[1908] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Regardless of how idiotic I think these proposed changes are, CCP should have a long hard look at the skills required to fly a Marauder, compared to any other BS class ship.
I not going to jump onto EveMon, or even ingame now, and I know some enterprising soul will dig up the answer precisely, but for my trade alt (no spaceship command skills of note, or proper implants), needs 130 days of training just to climb into a Marauder, and that is just level 1 of a level 10 skill. So tack on who knows what for that. THEN tack on ANOTHER level 8 skill for the Bastion module. THEN tack on another level 5 skills to operate the MJD, which apparently crucial now to gain the range to target NPC's properly.
Now let's look at a Vindicator, or Nightmare, same character. Looks like 7 days to get two racial BS skills to 1, which is a level 8 skill.
I am not going to work out the precise numbers, but the skill path to maxing out a dual race BS to V is way way shorter than getting the Marauder and all attendant skills to V.
So bottom line, if someone is willing to put in a huge amount more training for a ship, it damn well better outperform a counterpart, and from what we are seeing here, the new stats don't even come close to that.
And CCP, don't take this as a suggestion to nerf the **** out of faction BS's, even though I know your "rebalance" team is dying to do just that.
+1 |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 05:25:00 -
[1909] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Nick Parker wrote:CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.
You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons.
yeah, if only this proposal showed that marauders would have their own role.
The problem is any role you suggest for them, they are outclassed by ships of equal cost but less training time - Especially if used in groups of more than 1 |

Jaded Sky
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 05:53:00 -
[1910] - Quote
Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens. |
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 06:45:00 -
[1911] - Quote
Jaded Sky wrote:Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens.
what the .. are you on about? Have you even been in some fleet.. at all.. in any?!
ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 06:49:00 -
[1912] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Regardless of how idiotic I think these proposed changes are, CCP should have a long hard look at the skills required to fly a Marauder, compared to any other BS class ship.
I not going to jump onto EveMon, or even ingame now, and I know some enterprising soul will dig up the answer precisely, but for my trade alt (no spaceship command skills of note, or proper implants), needs 130 days of training just to climb into a Marauder, and that is just level 1 of a level 10 skill. So tack on who knows what for that. THEN tack on ANOTHER level 8 skill for the Bastion module. THEN tack on another level 5 skills to operate the MJD, which apparently crucial now to gain the range to target NPC's properly.
Now let's look at a Vindicator, or Nightmare, same character. Looks like 7 days to get two racial BS skills to 1, which is a level 8 skill.
I am not going to work out the precise numbers, but the skill path to maxing out a dual race BS to V is way way shorter than getting the Marauder and all attendant skills to V.
So bottom line, if someone is willing to put in a huge amount more training for a ship, it damn well better outperform a counterpart, and from what we are seeing here, the new stats don't even come close to that.
And CCP, don't take this as a suggestion to nerf the **** out of faction BS's, even though I know your "rebalance" team is dying to do just that. +1
+1
|

Jaded Sky
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 07:14:00 -
[1913] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Jaded Sky wrote:Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens. what the .. are you on about? Have you even been in some fleet.. at all.. in any?! ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats.
Ignoring the childish jab. Everyone uses and will continue to use pirate battleships unless they make marauders into better pirate battleships which continues down the old route that CCP is trying to avoid by having different roles/niches for ships. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that by using the MJD properly you can pop 100km away and pop any pesky frigs and still have insane range while in combat mode to deal with anything else, as far as I can tell they will perform the level 4 role quite well if not better because of the siege modes allowing freed up slots for more deeps/enhancers/range/etc.
Diversity is good, and I want to see more. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 07:22:00 -
[1914] - Quote
Jaded Sky wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Jaded Sky wrote:Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens. what the .. are you on about? Have you even been in some fleet.. at all.. in any?! ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats. Ignoring the childish jab. Everyone uses and will continue to use pirate battleships unless they make marauders into better pirate battleships which continues down the old route that CCP is trying to avoid by having different roles/niches for ships. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that by using the MJD properly you can pop 100km away and pop any pesky frigs and still have insane range while in combat mode to deal with anything else, as far as I can tell they will perform the level 4 role quite well if not better because of the siege modes allowing freed up slots for more deeps/enhancers/range/etc. Diversity is good, and I want to see more.
It's not childish jab.. it's me asking very emotionally because I feel the lack of knowledge and knowhow from alot of ppl who will lead ccp to do stupid *******!
there is no place in pvp for 1bil+ marauder, who the hell would take kronos over vindi??? and why?
because of bastion bling bling mjd paow paow anime transformation thingie? NO!
also talking about pve.. they wont be used in incursions. and no sane person will use bastion mode in lvl4 mission because you have gates to travel and today all marauders tank more than enough - while pimping fit you could permatank random mission forever.
also it's easier to get into imba pirate ship and still do missions alot faster. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 07:23:00 -
[1915] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons.
Not strictly better, just more of a general progression from T1 without any outright specialization. Right now I'd bet they're going to be like Attack Battleships. Less tank that Marauders, no special bonuses, a bit more gank and speed.
Battle Cube wrote:yeah, if only this proposal showed that marauders would have their own role.
The problem is any role you suggest for them, they are outclassed by ships of equal cost but less training time - Especially if used in groups of more than 1
I would wait for the re-balance on that >.>
And it's actually not significantly less training time to use at equal effectiveness. For a Pirate Battleship to be "maxed" you need the same support and weapons skills as a Marauder, in some cases more like with the Rattlesnake. You also need 2 Battleship skills to 5, where as with Marauders you need 1 BS to 5 and then Marauders to 5.
Except that you only need to train that once and you have access to any Marauder you have BS 5 for so when you have all 5 BS skills the difference comes out to about a month between the Bastion mod and Marauders 5 on a plan optimized for Marauders.
Beyond that Pirate ships are pretty much next up on the block, either before, after or at the same time as the Black-Ops Battleships. Since we've got 2 more balancing devs who currently don't have active threads my bet would be that in about a week or two when they get back from vacation we'll see a Black Ops and some version of a Pirate ships thread (given the other Battleship hulls being on the block they may start with battleships rather than frigates) |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 07:35:00 -
[1916] - Quote
Paladin and Kronos have to keep the webifier bonus. That's the bonus that makes these ships usable. If you remove web bonus, why does golem keep it's painting bonus ?
If golem is keeping painting bonus, kronos and paladin should be keeping webing bonus. If web bonus is too overpowered for new "siege" mode, then remove ability to use webs and painters while in that "siege" mode.
Simple Enough ?
I also don't see a reason for reducing drone bay, as marauders can only have like 75mbit/s drones ( 3 heavy drones ). If drones are overpowered when in "siege" mode, remove ability to use them while in that mode. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 07:52:00 -
[1917] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Paladin and Kronos have to keep the webifier bonus. That's the bonus that makes these ships usable. If you remove web bonus, why does golem keep it's painting bonus ?
If golem is keeping painting bonus, kronos and paladin should be keeping webing bonus. If web bonus is too overpowered for new "siege" mode, then remove ability to use webs and painters while in that "siege" mode.
Because the web bonuses are hilariously OP?
With one web you do what any other ship needs 2-3 webs for and with 2 webs you bring someone down to 1% velocity.
Just the fact that *one bonus* is what makes the ship worth using says that this bonus is probably too powerful. No, not for new siege mode but period.
Don't get me wrong, I love using it and having it on my side, but if you get caught by even a single 90% web you're screwed and that's a bit OP. Doubly so since that probably also means that you're scrammed which means your one option is an Afterburner to try and escape. A 90% web brings any ABing frigate except *maybe* an over-sized AB Dramiel under 100m/s. At two you're a sitting target waiting to be F1'd off the field.
I've been playing around with this idea since about three days before the Marauder changes were posted and I realized that all the 90% web ships were yet to be rebalanced and I can't make a good argument to myself for why this bonus is in any way fair or worth keeping around at least on Battleships. Not sure if the Vigilant is going to lose it too but I'm about 60/40 yes.
If you think you have a good argument for keeping the bonus by all means post it, maybe CCP will listen, but I think "That's the only thing making the ship good!!! T_T" is just a tick in the column toward removing it. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 07:57:00 -
[1918] - Quote
Well then golem should also loose it's painting bonus.

Cade Windstalker wrote: If you think you have a good argument for keeping the bonus by all means post it, maybe CCP will listen, but I think "That's the only thing making the ship good!!! T_T" is just a tick in the column toward removing it.
Vindicator also has this bonus, and it has insane dps, can use 5 heavy drones and has 11 turrets, paladin only gets 10 turrets. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:04:00 -
[1919] - Quote
Golem needs to keep its bonus because of the crappy missile damage application that is at all ranges, so increasing the range does not help dps at all, unlike optimal and falloff. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:04:00 -
[1920] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Well then golem should also loose it's painting bonus. 
The painting bonus isn't over-powered to the same degree. It lets you hit harder but not as hard as 90% webs and doesn't restrict movement.
Spc One wrote:Vindicator also has this bonus, and it has insane dps, can use 5 heavy drones and has 11 turrets, paladin only gets 10 turrets.
Yeah, as I pointed out, that's probably going away too. We'll probably know in a week or two when Fozzie and Rise get back from vacation and we find out what they're working on but smart money is on no more Vindi webs. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
302
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:07:00 -
[1921] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Spc One wrote:Paladin and Kronos have to keep the webifier bonus. That's the bonus that makes these ships usable. If you remove web bonus, why does golem keep it's painting bonus ?
If golem is keeping painting bonus, kronos and paladin should be keeping webing bonus. If web bonus is too overpowered for new "siege" mode, then remove ability to use webs and painters while in that "siege" mode. Because the web bonuses are hilariously OP? ...
It's interesting that you mention this Cade, because on approx. page 40 of this thread, CCP Ytterbium specifically said that the web bonus "did not significantly increase your chance to hit frigates", which hardly sounds like he thinks it's OP.
I actually responded to that claim, asking him for numeric proof of that statement. No reply has been forthcoming as yet.
Cade face it, I know you speak to someone on the CSM. I know the CSM are overwhelmed and excited by this new transforming marauder, but from what I see in the forums half the player base - particularly people who actually use marauders - hate it.
This bastion-transforming-micro-jumping marauder has got the dev team very excited and they want to push it. I'm sure that's all very nice. Remember that they also got very excited about dressing up space dolls. That resulted in "burn jita", loss of subs and ultimately a public apology by the CEO.
The devs are not always right. Many people think this direction is wrong. It's time for a different proposal for Marauders.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:11:00 -
[1922] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: It's interesting that you mention this Cade, because on approx. page 40 of this thread, CCP Ytterbium specifically said that the web bonus "did not significantly increase your chance to hit frigates", which hardly sounds like he thinks it's OP.
That is true. Also webs are limited to 10km (t-2) so i don't see this bonus as overpowered. It was fine how many years now ?
Cade Windstalker wrote: The painting bonus isn't over-powered to the same degree. It lets you hit harder but not as hard as 90% webs and doesn't restrict movement. .
It is, i can one shot destroyers with t-1 cruise missiles ( all level 5 skills including paining skills and marauders skills + missile skills). And painter is not limited to 10km, but with falloff you get like 90km. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
109
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:25:00 -
[1923] - Quote
Spc One wrote: That is true. Also webs are limited to 10km (t-2) so i don't see this bonus as overpowered. It was fine how many years now ?
14km with Faction webs and ~18.8 with max-bonused Skirmish links on top of that.
This does two things, pushes most ships out of scram range, in-fact an Interceptor with a faction-point and the same bonuses has just 130 meters where he's out of web range and in Scram range, meaning only the Gallente Recon Cruisers and the Proteus can scram from out of web range.
Spc One wrote:It is, i can one shot destroyers with t-1 cruise missiles ( all level 5 skills including paining skills and marauders skills + missile skills). And painter is not limited to 10km, but with falloff you get like 90km.
I also think that this change for marauders is wrong one. Removing web bonuses is making these ships useless. Web bonus is here so i can apply more damage to cruisers and battlecruisers, lasers on paladin don't have the tracking of kronos ( blasters track very good + you get bonus from the kronos ship itself + web bonus).
You also have to know that kronos and paladin are limited to damage types ( em/thermal // kinetic/themal ) so killing an angel frigate is not so easy with em lasers.
Are you referring to a mission destroyer? Because that's hardly a fair test. A player destroyer will be better tanked and can use a prop-mod to mitigate the damage from your missiles.
Against turrets though you would have to bloom his signature to 10 times the base level (I am fairly certain this is impossible) to get the same effect on hit quality as a 90% web.
Mournful Conciousness wrote: It's interesting that you mention this Cade, because on approx. page 40 of this thread, CCP Ytterbium specifically said that the web bonus "did not significantly increase your chance to hit frigates", which hardly sounds like he thinks it's OP.
I read the same thing you did and noted the lack of a response. I would not expect Ytterbium to drop what would amount to spoilers on a ship whose new stats have not been announced yet, especially one like the Vindi that is basically run for its web bonus (without it the Navy Mega is better in some respects). Confirming that the Vindi is losing its bonus would just send people off on an uninformed rant about CCP ruining their fun and/or favorite ship.
MC, as for your claim that the majority of people want something different I would say it's about split with a slight margin toward the people who like it because they tend to post and walk away, the people who dislike and critique things tend to stick around which causes what seems like a torrent of negative feedback. If you read back through the Command Ships and HACs threads I'm sure the majority of posts would be negative.
I definitely think the idea needs some tweaking and a lot of testing but I don't think it's necessary to completely abandon the Bastion concept. Personally I'm looking forward to Fortress Kronos.
I have my own thoughts on why Burn Jita happened but this is neither the time nor the place for them. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
302
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:35:00 -
[1924] - Quote
Burn Jita was pretty simple. The players very obviously wanted game mechanics fixed while CCP was obsessed with Dust and space dolls.
After the revolution, CCP correctly focussed on Eve again. The result is the very welcome past 18 months of intensive work to make Eve a better spaceship game. Hillmar's new era of humility (mandated by the major shareholder) rescued the company and increased the subscriber base.
I think that's worth remembering.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
243
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:38:00 -
[1925] - Quote
Bastion module for all battleships!!!! New CQ prototype |

Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
184
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:40:00 -
[1926] - Quote
Hi All,
I hope I haven't set the tone in some small way for this thread from my first ever first on the front page. I said I didn't see this helping me in PvE because I don't think this Marauder hull design is going to help me do what I do better, I have an alt and mobility in missions is important for what I do.
There is a lot of nagative stuff in this thread but there are also a lot of posts, esspecially earlier on, where people's first reaction was that of, "Wow cool". I think it's nice that CCP are putting stuff into the game that is a bit different.
As I've said in other Features and Ideas threads that were trying to predict what the Marauder update would consist of is that my current navy faction battleships give almost as high DPS and higher tank whilst being faster than the old Marauders. Now the Marauders can have high tank but zero mobility - but I like to use spider tank setups - which is the origin of my initial comment.
HOWEVER
My old beloved Mega Navy Issue does 556 at 39.6Km+36Km and tanks 905DPS travels at 499 m/s (I don't drone) My potential new Kronos will do 600 at 39.6Km+54Km and tanks 941DPS travels at 439 m/s (I still won't drone)
The Tank is augmented by my on-field CS but it needs to be good to start with in case the CS has an accident like what happened once.
I won't use the Bastion module because I like to Spider Tank. I won't use the tractor beams or salvagers because I Noctis.
HOWEVER!!!!! I now get to fit three Large Armour Repair Systems - Which DOES help my Spider tank setup - and I can Dump the Web for another Booster! And I'll have a MASSIVE cargo hold for my booster charges! Yay.
So the Marauders are now better for me - simply because they get a Falloff bonus. And they may be worth the price tag too. |

Aaron Kyoto
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 09:39:00 -
[1927] - Quote
So, did CCP just inadvertantly the anti-gank ship?
Example:
Some plucky carebear decides to transport alot of shinies in his marauder, because it has a big enough cargo hold. AFK autopilot while he plays solitaire, etc. Soon, some bloodthirsty ganker spots him and gets his friends together to attempt it. Warning beeps cause the marauder to look at his screen. Shields at 20%?! Bastion mode. Engage.
Tank until Concord saves the day. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
109
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 09:45:00 -
[1928] - Quote
Aaron Kyoto wrote:So, did CCP just inadvertantly the anti-gank ship?
Example:
Some plucky carebear decides to transport alot of shinies in his marauder, because it has a big enough cargo hold. AFK autopilot while he plays solitaire, etc. Soon, some bloodthirsty ganker spots him and gets his friends together to attempt it. Warning beeps cause the marauder to look at his screen. Shields at 20%?! Bastion mode. Engage.
Tank until Concord saves the day.
Lol, more like squad of Tornadoes and he's in his pod instantly. You'd have to factor in Bastion for the gank in-case he's paying attention though.
At best I'd call it a very expensive way to troll gankers if used how you're suggesting.
Props for one of the most inventive and plausible niche uses proposed so far though! |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 09:47:00 -
[1929] - Quote
I thought one of the dev's comments about using drones on frigs was funny. Who uses drones on frigs anymore? XD As soon as you launch them these days, it seems one or two are already dead... |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
105
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 09:59:00 -
[1930] - Quote
And thats why we need an urgent Drone overhaul... both Drones stats and UI wise. |
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 10:08:00 -
[1931] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:I thought one of the dev's comments about using drones on frigs was funny. Who uses drones on frigs anymore? XD As soon as you launch them these days, it seems one or two are already dead... That's true, that's why i don't use drones anymore.
|

Optimo Sebiestor
Bondage Goat Zombie Strictly Unprofessional
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 10:16:00 -
[1932] - Quote
Dear CCP, Please just buff the current marauders so that they are in line with the pirate faction battleships. The whole consept of mini dreads sounds to me as a new tier 2 marauder. I may even be so bold and ask if it can be based on the tier 3 battleship design. Alot of people love their marauders the way they are. I fear changing it to a mini dread, alters it too much from its current use. Forcing people to go for the pirate faction battleships, leaves alot of grumpy people considering the amount of specialisation that goes into training for this type of ship. This doesnt really feel like balancing, it feels more like a new game feature, and I think it should be treated as such. Personally I will train for one, because it just sounds awsome. But it doesnt feel so awsome it should come at the expense of an already good ship class. |

Lorna Sicling
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 10:25:00 -
[1933] - Quote
Very intersting changes.
As somebody who regularly builds this class of ship, can you indicate whether you plan to alter the manufacturing requirements or if you'll just leave them as is. Industrialist - currently renting in null sec.
Writer of the blog "A Scientist's Life in Eve" - proud member of the Eve Blog Pack |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
491
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 10:40:00 -
[1934] - Quote
I am terribly sorry for posting this insignificant thing in this thread full of insightful analysis and all, but I really wanted to rant about how Amarr ship is getting effectively one less bonus (pretty much static 25% cap bonus from ship prerequisites). I hope that there will be uses to Paladin's mighty (compared to other marauders, 30% more than closest pursuer, plus slightly faster recharge) capacitor that can justify this design (as long as any benefits from that aren't eaten by lasers). |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
355
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 10:56:00 -
[1935] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:I am terribly sorry for posting this insignificant thing in this thread full of insightful analysis and all, but I really wanted to rant about how Amarr ship is getting effectively one less bonus (pretty much static 25% cap bonus from ship prerequisites). I hope that there will be uses to Paladin's mighty (compared to other marauders, 30% more than closest pursuer, plus slightly faster recharge) capacitor that can justify this design (as long as any benefits from that aren't eaten by lasers).
Funny, time and time again I read posts from amarr pilots that complain about amarr battleship cap issues and not being able to fire all their guns without running dry on cap (I can only imagine how this feels as I am using a golem most of the time) and now you get one ship that can do exactly that and what do I read again... complaints. -..- There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:03:00 -
[1936] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....
It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around. Not working as intended.
It is not even useful for pve, at least for people that don't over tank every hull or use them for PVE with RR like WH or Incs. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

To mare
Advanced Technology
237
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:17:00 -
[1937] - Quote
remove the rubbish bastion thing, give them full T2 resist, add 1 dps or damage application bonus. not sure about keeping or leaving the mjd bonus |

Sabriz Adoudel
Oppan Ganknam Style
742
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:20:00 -
[1938] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Aaron Kyoto wrote:So, did CCP just inadvertantly the anti-gank ship?
Example:
Some plucky carebear decides to transport alot of shinies in his marauder, because it has a big enough cargo hold. AFK autopilot while he plays solitaire, etc. Soon, some bloodthirsty ganker spots him and gets his friends together to attempt it. Warning beeps cause the marauder to look at his screen. Shields at 20%?! Bastion mode. Engage.
Tank until Concord saves the day. Lol, more like squad of Tornadoes and he's in his pod instantly. You'd have to factor in Bastion for the gank in-case he's paying attention though. At best I'd call it a very expensive way to troll gankers if used how you're suggesting. Props for one of the most inventive and plausible niche uses proposed so far though!
I'm always happy when a carebear pays enough attention to ward off a gank. It means that us gankers have done our job and converted a bear into an EVE player. Miner euthanization expert. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
124
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:32:00 -
[1939] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Your argument here seems a touch disjointed.
For a start a Megathron may have been able to go faster back then, most things could and I'd be rather surprised if 1200m/s was the upper limit of speed on even an armor tanked mega with the right combo of effects. However comparing the post-nerf Megathron right now to other battleships it performs quite well.
A quick comparison of the Megathron hulls to Raven, Apocalypse, and Tempest hulls shows the Megathron based hulls with the lowest inertia modifier of any of them, beating out all three of the Minmattar ships. In velocity the Megahthron Navy Issue ties with the Tempest Fleet Issue and Vargur at 130m/s, followed by the Tempest at 127 m/s, then the Vindicator at 126, the Navy Raven at 123 and the Megathron at 122.
This is a very powerful combination of speed and agility and puts blaster boats in a very good position compared to where they were before these changes and, I would argue, even before the pre-nano nerf days.
Now, the bit where I kind of completely lose you is where you assert that it actually used to be *harder* to hold someone with webs back when you couldn't turn off their MWD and you sort of lose me when you say this justifies 90% webs when it is functionally impossible to escape them since the person webbing you can turn off your MWD or web you down to the point where you can't feasibly get away from them with an Afterburner with only a single module and a short-point.
If anything this would make them even stronger now than they used to be and this is born out by the popularity of hulls with these bonuses over comparable hulls without even when those other hulls have significant advantages and lack the drawbacks of the hull with the web bonus.
Throw the mechanics of "Dread-blapping" into the mix and you have a very solid case for removing these bonuses and replacing them with something else.
You make a decent argument with your frigate example, however this can be countered by two points. One, with a Federation Navy web the frigate can be grabbed on approach out at 14 km, which means it will be going ~100m/s by the time it hits 10km. Two, any of these ships can easily fit a second web which means that, for example in the case of a Vindicator with Neutron Blasters loaded with Void (horrible tracking) the Vindi is still able to apply a solid 1000 DPS aat 3000 meters without factoring in drones or that the Vindicator, even without a propulsion module, is now faster than the frigate with only one web on it. At two webs you're basically shooting at a small cargo container with guns on it.
As for your completely erroneous statement about 90% webs and Large Blasters, only two blaster ships have been able to fit them for the last 5 years. One is the undisputed DPS king of sub-caps and the other is a ship that, according to its other stats, should have zero PvP relevance at all and probably wouldn't if it didn't also have a 90% web bonus.
Plus both of these ships can still fit two webs without their bonus and get roughly the same effect as a single 90% web but for a more reasonable trade-off and without the hilariously broken situation of 2 90% webs on the same ship.
Don't get me wrong, I love when 90% webs are on my side, but I really fail to see a justification for their continued existence in the game when they are so ridiculously powerful.
IGÇÖll keep it straightforward:
90% webs today cannot be viewed in the same light as pre 2008. Back then ABGÇÖs were rubbish (double digit % bonus meaning bugger all difference to speed), tracking disrupters were rubbish and the bit about MWD you have completely misunderstood GÇô the blaster pilot could light his MWD to pull some range to get better hits GÇô if the other pilot did the same the sig bloom would kill them. With MWD killing scrams you no longer have to worry about this, going toe-to-toe with a blaster battleship.
In my opinion 90% webs should have never been taken away from any blaster platforms, Period.
I did point out back at the time ( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=834365&page=15#424) the absurdity of removing 90% webs from the slow platforms with sub 10km optimal range and how this equated to a 400% increase in target transversal GÇô in that particular test a zero fit stabber (no modules) orbiting a Ion II Megathron with impunity GÇô with no corresponding increase in tracking. Fundamentally this is down to a flaw in the tracking formula (doesnGÇÖt account for actual target size up close) but that is never going to get fixed.
As to my Frigate example, you completely forgot a crucial variable; scan resolution GÇô by the time the Battleship has the frigate locked up from a typical gate encounter, if it is appropriately AB fit to counter said blaster Battleship it will be sufficiently close to mitigate the speed drop. If he has double webs? (Vindi - 5 mids, doesnGÇÖt help Kronos) Well donGÇÖt fight him on his terms, itGÇÖs really quite straightforwardGǪ.
Fundamentally Battleship-sized blaster platforms were shafted by the 2008 speed changes and have never recovered and I speak as someone who has roughly half his career kills flying a blaster Megathron solo. CCP momentarily recognised this when they re-worked Serpentis hulls back in 2009, getting rid of the MWD cap bonus for the only blaster related bonus to make sense *drum roll*GǪ. 90% webs.
DonGÇÖt take it off the last viable solo/very small gang pure Gallente blaster Battleship.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
601
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:44:00 -
[1940] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....
It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around. Not working as intended.
It is not even useful for pve, at least for people that don't over tank every hull or use them for PVE with RR like WH or Incs. I think there being designed as an easy mode for those environments. Which is dumb. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
491
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:46:00 -
[1941] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Funny, time and time again I read posts from amarr pilots that complain about amarr battleship cap issues and not being able to fire all their guns without running dry on cap (I can only imagine how this feels as I am using a golem most of the time) and now you get one ship that can do exactly that and what do I read again... complaints. -..- Well, I admit, that wasn't totally right. I'm well aware on how powerful Paladin's cap is at this point. I just wonder if ability to fully benefit from lasers' projection and that cap will be enough to make up for lack of selectable damage type (and that "bonus slot") on such kind of ship.
That said, it probably won't be a drawback in many cases. And then there is an option to shut guns down to keep tank going when other ships can't while waiting for corpmates in case of things getting hairy. So I actually think that this Paladin suffers from that "Amarr syndrome" the least (not completely free of it as, say, rigged NM with 13k cap and similar recharge rate isn't the thing that doesn't struggle to run everything, and so Paladin will), but it was funny to see again 
On something different: are marauders going to keep their partial T2 resistance profile? |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
355
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:53:00 -
[1942] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Funny, time and time again I read posts from amarr pilots that complain about amarr battleship cap issues and not being able to fire all their guns without running dry on cap (I can only imagine how this feels as I am using a golem most of the time) and now you get one ship that can do exactly that and what do I read again... complaints. -..- Well, I admit, that wasn't totally right. I'm well aware on how powerful Paladin's cap is at this point. I just wonder if ability to fully benefit from lasers' projection and that cap will be enough to make up for lack of selectable damage type (and that "bonus slot") on such kind of ship. That said, it probably won't be a drawback in many cases. And then there is an option to shut guns down to keep tank going when other ships can't while waiting for corpmates in case of things getting hairy. So I actually think that this Paladin suffers from that "Amarr syndrome" the least, but it was funny to see again  On something different: are marauders going to keep their partial T2 resistance profile?
Haven't lasers already got the best tracking of all guns? Just curious as I don't use guns much and therefore don't know much about how good which gun type tracks.
About the partial T2 resists, I think something about that was mentinoned in one of Ytterbiums posts in this thread, I just can't remember exactly what he said as my brain turned all that awesome marauder transformer thingie into
"When we first saw the flock, we were surrounded, caught in a spectacle of stimuli. Brilliant colors, dancing lights, beautiful cacophonies, wafting ambrosia. Those birds surrounded us, each one a different shape, an altered species, a new wonder. I tried to follow a single bird, but my efforts were futile: Transformation is natural to their existence. Imagine it: an undulating mass, a changing mob, all those beasts partaking in wonderful transmogrification.
These were our augurs, our deliverers, our saviors. Standing amidst the flock, we should have feared their glory; instead, we drew hope. This moment is the first time I understood what it meant to be Caldari: Divinity in the flock, delivery in flux, one being, many changes."
Not entirely appropriate as it's from the Tengu description but I couldn't help it. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:55:00 -
[1943] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Pattern Clarc wrote:It totally breaks PvE, and I wonder what happens if you use this in the next AT....
It's neither balanced, nor useful in PvP - which is what all ships in this PVP FOCUSED game should be based around. Not working as intended.
It is not even useful for pve, at least for people that don't over tank every hull or use them for PVE with RR like WH or Incs.
I disagree. I run a tachyon Paladin and can't wait to be able to tear through guristas without being jammed a single time, Serpentis without being damped, Sansha without being TD'ed, while being able to get to a far away acceleration gate quickly thanks to the bonused MJD. Furthermore, with the fitting I'm using now, it'll get 74km optimal with Multifrequency.
However, I used to run a Vargur pre TE-nerf, and I've got to admit the arty fits I tried on EFT are pretty disappointing when compared to the tachyon Paladin.
Edit : In addition, I'll replace the useless (because of the loss of velocity factor bonus) web I've put on my Paladin with a sensor booster and then lock farther and/or faster (considering the buffed base lock range of the hull). Taking into account the very recent buff to local armor repairers, it will become a tanking beast dealing death on the battlefield.
Of course, I'm writing strictly about PvE (missions and plexes, not incursions (at least not Vanguards)). |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 12:07:00 -
[1944] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote: ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats.
How are they worse? Speed? Well, they have more cap regen (mostly) than they did, so it'll be easier (or cheaper if you're using a cap booster) to run an MWD for an extended period, so in real terms they won't be much slower, even discounting the MJD option.
How else might they be worse?
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 12:18:00 -
[1945] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:I am terribly sorry for posting this insignificant thing in this thread full of insightful analysis and all, but I really wanted to rant about how Amarr ship is getting effectively one less bonus (pretty much static 25% cap bonus from ship prerequisites). I hope that there will be uses to Paladin's mighty (compared to other marauders, 30% more than closest pursuer, plus slightly faster recharge) capacitor that can justify this design (as long as any benefits from that aren't eaten by lasers).
The recharge rate won't be 'slightly faster' once you allow for the increased cap size, but almost double. That's huge, as with only four lasers eating cap the Paladin will be able to afford to run an active tank very aggressively or run an MWD constantly, giving it more mobility than its low speed suggests. So, this extra cap makes the Paladin both mobile and tanky.
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 12:31:00 -
[1946] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Haven't lasers already got the best tracking of all guns? Just curious as I don't use guns much and therefore don't know much about how good which gun type tracks.
Tachyons have the best tracking and damage of all long range guns, but the worst range. Megapulses have by far the best range and second-best damage of short range guns, but the worst tracking. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
303
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 12:41:00 -
[1947] - Quote
Marauders:
Question 1: "What are we trying to create?", or "what problem are we trying to solve?"
Start there.
Bastion does not solve a known problem in PVE. The MJD bonus does not solve a known problem in PVE.
A small and arguable reduction in level 4 mission time is not the basis of a complete 3-month long project to overhaul an entire ship class. That would be a mis-allocation of resources - like space dolls.
"What are we trying to create?", "what problem are we trying to solve?"
Respectfully, would someone on the CSM or in the dev team kindly be able to give me a convincing answer to this?
Once we know what you are trying to create, we are in a position to judge objectively whether the proposal represents a valid solution.
At the moment, it looks just like change for change's sake. That is not a good foundation for progress.
Progress begins with a strongly defined objective.
"competing with faction battleships" is not an objective. That's a comparison. What do you actually want the players to be able to achieve with marauders? What activities do you wish to specifically disallow?
Start there. Rational discourse can then follow. Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:09:00 -
[1948] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:And guess what? It's feedback time!
97 pages of suggestions, but I get the distinct impression that we're talking about "limited feedback" and that the core design is more or less set in stone (since the only 'tweak' thus far has been with respect to the skill for Bastion). So I guess it's on to the next class of ships (Black-Ops?) Btw, you went from suck to blow with that link to the new animation... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:09:00 -
[1949] - Quote
Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.
Assuming no-one molests you, soloing C4s or even C3s in one of these returns more ISK/hour than any current PvE activity. C3/C4 sleeper battleships are worth on average about 15-20m ISK EACH, and these ships can fit enough gank to kill one in under a minute while still easily tanking the site. It's much better ISK/hour than capital escalations in a C6 and has probably far less risk, as C4s are very sparsely populated.
Sleeper frigs orbit at 5-6.5km and can all be smartbombed with faction smartbombs, sleeper cruisers die in 3 volleys and 1200 DPS kills a sleeper battleship in about a minute. You can probably exceed 300m/hour if you find an untouched wormhole with 30 sites up. |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3323
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:14:00 -
[1950] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.
Assuming no-one molests you, soloing C4s or even C3s in one of these returns more ISK/hour than any current PvE activity. C3/C4 sleeper battleships are worth on average about 15-20m ISK EACH, and these ships can fit enough gank to kill one in under a minute while still easily tanking the site. It's much better ISK/hour than capital escalations in a C6 and has probably far less risk, as C4s are very sparsely populated.
Sleeper frigs orbit at 5-6.5km and can all be smartbombed with faction smartbombs, sleeper cruisers die in 3 volleys and 1200 DPS kills a sleeper battleship in about a minute. You can probably exceed 300m/hour if you find an untouched wormhole with 30 sites up.
but but but there is no other PVE besides null anoms and L4s
andandand it's less cost-effective than slowly and tediously grinding the same sleeper sites in a 1.5bil ISK Tengu with **** for dps
somehow
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:16:00 -
[1951] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Marauders:
Question 1: "What are we trying to create?", or "what problem are we trying to solve?"
Start there.
Bastion does not solve a known problem in PVE. The MJD bonus does not solve a known problem in PVE.
Correct, be individually they don't solve any known PVE problem. If the two are used in conjunction with each other, meaning both are on the ship, it allows safer solo completion of high end PVE sites. The problem that still needs to be addressed is how one will take a billion isk ship out to these sites without becoming kill mail fodder for every ship they pass. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:26:00 -
[1952] - Quote
Roime wrote: andandand it's less cost-effective than slowly and tediously grinding the same sleeper sites in a 1.5bil ISK Tengu with **** for dps
somehow
And frankly, the Tengu is more likely to be ganked, because it'll be on site longer, and the longer you're out ffom under your POS shields, the greater the chance of someone seeing you and rolling out the gank team.
|

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:31:00 -
[1953] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.
I've only run a few L5s in fleet a long time ago, so I may be mistaken, but don't most of L5s have powerful neuts in them? I was under the impression that the Bastion module would not immune the marauder to cap warfare. Was I wrong? |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:31:00 -
[1954] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:And guess what? It's feedback time! 97 pages of suggestions, but I get the distinct impression that we're talking about "limited feedback" and that the core design is more or less set in stone (since the only 'tweak' thus far has been with respect to the skill for Bastion). So I guess it's on to the next class of ships (Black-Ops?) Btw, you went from suck to blow with that link to the new animation...
Wrong! We got maybe 20 pages of suggestions, 19 of which are filled with plain bland mix of marauder boosts that would've tuned the marauders into the new machariels + 90% webs or just remove all changes + more damage or remove tank bonus for bastion mode and give more damage + dps application.
5 pages are about how cool that new marauder will be and all the rest is repetition and whine posts.
And somehow I have to wonder if all those whine posts come from paladin and kronos pilots. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1211
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:33:00 -
[1955] - Quote
So let's see...Marauders lose their 90% web bonus. Now people scream this makes the Vindicator's 90% bonus OP compared to other BS's. So that goes next.
But wait, what about the cruiser based Vindicator: the Vigilant. For the sake of fairness, it must go to. While were at it, how can anyone fight a Daredevil that has a 90% web. Bye bye.
So now a slow moving cruiser and frigate (Daredevil is not that slow, but not fast enough when this webifer bonus is removed), that have to be close to their targets to do damage, are rendered useless.
Idiocy, pure idiocy. Instead of giving MORE ships the 90% bonus, the null sec game designers are doing the opposite. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:34:00 -
[1956] - Quote
see, i was right.  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:35:00 -
[1957] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Xequecal wrote:Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources. I've only run a few L5s in fleet a long time ago, so I may be mistaken, but don't most of L5s have powerful neuts in them? I was under the impression that the Bastion module would not immune the marauder to cap warfare. Was I wrong?
The Paladin has 12,500 base capacitor and 89+20km range with Scorch and 3 range mods. DPS tanking the energy neut sentries is trivial, since you are immune to tracking disruptiors. |

Novah Soul
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:50:00 -
[1958] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:I am terribly sorry for posting this insignificant thing in this thread full of insightful analysis and all, but I really wanted to rant about how Amarr ship is getting effectively one less bonus (pretty much static 25% cap bonus from ship prerequisites). I hope that there will be uses to Paladin's mighty (compared to other marauders, 30% more than closest pursuer, plus slightly faster recharge) capacitor that can justify this design (as long as any benefits from that aren't eaten by lasers). Funny, time and time again I read posts from amarr pilots that complain about amarr battleship cap issues and not being able to fire all their guns without running dry on cap (I can only imagine how this feels as I am using a golem most of the time) and now you get one ship that can do exactly that and what do I read again... complaints. -..- I was thinking the same thing as you. I am actually happy for the cap use bonus. I absolutely hate using cap boosters in pve (aside from the fact my internet connection is garbage and I'd lose pve ships at least once a week without a permarun tank) so this should all but alleviate this and give me a good laser platform for missioning if I choose to buy one. \o/ |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:56:00 -
[1959] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Wrong! We got maybe 20 pages of suggestions, 19 of which are filled with plain bland mix of marauder boosts that would've tuned the marauders into the new machariels + 90% webs or just remove all changes + more damage or remove tank bonus for bastion mode and give more damage + dps application.
5 pages are about how cool that new marauder will be and all the rest is repetition and whine posts. And somehow I have to wonder if all those whine posts come from paladin and kronos pilots.
I think you missed the point, which is that out of 97 pages of feedback - only one really minor change to the skill has been implemented (and not the one that was in fact suggested by players). It just seems like feedback is more of a placebo for players than anything else. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:18:00 -
[1960] - Quote
I think I have a simple solution to the problem most people have with the Bastion Mode.
You can deactivate the Bastion mode, but it will give you a 60 second debuff of the following: -50% Optimal -50% Falloff -50% Missile Velocity Cannot reactivate Bastion Mode for duration
This will allow escape if necessary, but if you deactivate it's like having tracking disruption, so you can't deactivate to move without severely gimping yourself.
Lets be honest, its going to be hard to justify a ship of this price-tag that is a sitting duck for hot drops and can be locked down by a cloaky frig no matter the isk you can make. Not to mention if the whole idea for PVP is that it will be able to position on the field where it wants to and shift on the fly, you can't force it into a mode that makes it immobile.
I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:23:00 -
[1961] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now.
That's not a half bad idea (and it wouldn't break my heart to see the tractor bonus go the way of the dodo). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1212
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:28:00 -
[1962] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now. That's not a half bad idea (and it wouldn't break my heart to see the tractor bonus go the way of the dodo).
Oh yeah, a smart bomb range bonus. Brilliant. Love to see how that will work in fleets. I know, we will space all ships out at least 10 km apart.
Oh wait, ships are slower than bricks now. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

loles
The Oregon Mining Corporation Cookie Collective
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:35:00 -
[1963] - Quote
As a PvE mission runner that already uses the MJD in many BS hulls I don't understand the combination of bonuses.
MJD is meant to run 100km away and kill from distance (which always forces you to fit a sebo/signal ampl to be able to target things, and also maintains sentries out of range in geddon/rattle), boosting targeting range would be nice for marauders to combine with MJD). In missions where I use a MJD, I fit a light tank (unless there are gankers around), as at 100km NPCs barely/never hit you.
Following this reasoning, which is a fact imo (NPCs barely hit you at 100km), what is the purpose of combining the ability to jump away from damage, and fitting an ultra tank? You shouldn't be receiving damage. Or is it meant to combat gankers? Because if that is the case, any armor tanker will die (cap neutralizers) and any shield ship will laugh (2x XL Ancill + passive resists). I would either go for MJD and something else, or heavy tank and sit in damage range. They seem to not combine for PvE.
I also don't understand why the complains about webs. Run at 100km and hit frigs while approaching, or use your drones. Why would you even bother hitting a frig orbiting you at 5km? It's a waste of gun time. Just launch light drones and kill something bigger.
On another point, current state of tractor beams never felt appealing enough for me to train a marauder. With the introduction of MJD, it feels very wrong. 40km range for a ship that can kill at 100km? So you kill ships and then spend 4x the time attempting to salvage? Either make it worth it or remove it, but don't leave it as it is.
Last, drone bay. You want to leave 25mb/s? fine, but let us carry 2 sets of light drones, and 1 set of salvage drones, 75m3? Which is the reason not to let us carry 75m3? are we meant to die (of boredom with the ultra tank) if our drones are killed and we get a scrambling frig?
On another side, when balancing any BS I'd rethink what CCP's intention is for a future adjustment of missions, at current state they feel quite boring/repeatable/undynamic.
Nonetheless, I like the change even as posted. The ship morphing will surely be awesome, and mini-dreads idea sounds very cool. Please keep it and make it live :) |

marVLs
395
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:36:00 -
[1964] - Quote
It should be that when You transform with badass animation, cool sounds, effects etc. it should mean: "oooohhhh shiiii negotiations are over!!! RUUUNN!!!!" 
...but we get instead: "oh look he fail and transform, now call rest of fleet, he won't espace... |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
429
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:41:00 -
[1965] - Quote
At the current state, and in their new form, marauders will never be fleet comp worthy.
CCP isn't fixing their past issues and now they are creating future ones.
Marauders need:
sensor strength buff paladin/kronos need 90% web back t2 resists since they are "advanced battleships" larger drone bay if possible
Marauders don't need:
More tank Smaller drone bay To be immobile MJD bonus
My reasoning for 90% web: Paladin: Large lasers can't track unless target is slowed down up close. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up Golem: Missiles always track and have distance, shield ship = faster Vargur: Great tracking and distance, shield ship = faster Kronos: Blasters have horrible range and need ship locked down. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up
edit: my complaints are for PVP |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:46:00 -
[1966] - Quote
Change the skill to Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration, require strontium use for Bastion and instead of reducing the marauder to a dead stop apply a 100% velocity bonus while in Bastion mode. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Starrakatt
Hunter Killers.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:47:00 -
[1967] - Quote
Well, niche uses, yes.
Better overall PVE, for all/most high end PVE content IMHO - And yes the Bastion mod could be used safely enough for anoms and Plexes, if you got good intel channels.
Nulsec/lowsec PVP? Never used a MJD doing that, will probably be a rare sight, still...
Hisec PVP now? Suspect/Killright bait ship, oh, YES, sure. Station games? INDEED (though I ferociously hate this...). And yeah, it's been mentioned somewhere, EWAR immunity make POS removal much easier.
And, oh, yeah, YEAH, bring that Falcon/Blackbird, and other EWAR ships, yes, please.
As for the Grid/CPU and +1 high slot, also makes it easier to use in pvp, smartbombs and NOS/Neuts being much easier to fit - Although I don't know if the NOS changes will benefit a Marauder with their cap increase.
Golem: I agree with previous comments that the Painter bonus should go (as are the Webs) and be replaced by an Explosion Velocity bonus, or whatever else.
I do not like the reduced Drone capabilities, the gods knows Marauders already don't outshine other BS, regular or Navy/Pirates in the dps department anyway, but I can live with it I guess, just don't see the point of it. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:49:00 -
[1968] - Quote
Starrakatt wrote:Golem: I agree with previous comments that the Painter bonus should go (as are the Webs) and be replaced by an Explosion Velocity bonus, or whatever else.
+1, explosion radius would be preferable. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:52:00 -
[1969] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Aaron Kyoto wrote:So, did CCP just inadvertantly the anti-gank ship?
Example:
Some plucky carebear decides to transport alot of shinies in his marauder, because it has a big enough cargo hold. AFK autopilot while he plays solitaire, etc. Soon, some bloodthirsty ganker spots him and gets his friends together to attempt it. Warning beeps cause the marauder to look at his screen. Shields at 20%?! Bastion mode. Engage.
Tank until Concord saves the day. Lol, more like squad of Tornadoes and he's in his pod instantly. You'd have to factor in Bastion for the gank in-case he's paying attention though. At best I'd call it a very expensive way to troll gankers if used how you're suggesting. Props for one of the most inventive and plausible niche uses proposed so far though! I was doing the math for how much EHP you could get out of a Paladin with Bastion activated, 2 Deadspace EANM, a DC II and a rack of HG Slaves.
It's pretty sweet. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
494
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:54:00 -
[1970] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So let's see...Marauders lose their 90% web bonus. Now people scream this makes the Vindicator's 90% bonus OP compared to other BS's. So that goes next.
But wait, what about the cruiser based Vindicator: the Vigilant. For the sake of fairness, it must go to. While were at it, how can anyone fight a Daredevil that has a 90% web. Bye bye.
So now a slow moving cruiser and frigate (Daredevil is not that slow, but not fast enough when this webifer bonus is removed), that have to be close to their targets to do damage, are rendered useless.
Idiocy, pure idiocy. Instead of giving MORE ships the 90% bonus, the null sec game designers are doing the opposite. Probably the biggest fail in reasoning and biggest "sky is falling" QQ I have read in a long time.
I have no idea why people think that the removal of the 90% web bonuses from two Marauders suddenly means that all 90% web bonuses are going to be removed. The web bonuses of the Serpentis or Blood Raider lines are part of their racial flavor; they make those ships unique. The web bonuses on the Paladin and Kronos were means to an end. CCP has decided that there's a better, more unique means to an end with the Bastion module and range projection.
So, if you want high dps, 90% webs, go with a Vindi. If you want super tank, ewar immunity, 3 utility highs, go with a Kronos. It's not rocket science. The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
359
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:54:00 -
[1971] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Wrong! We got maybe 20 pages of suggestions, 19 of which are filled with plain bland mix of marauder boosts that would've tuned the marauders into the new machariels + 90% webs or just remove all changes + more damage or remove tank bonus for bastion mode and give more damage + dps application.
5 pages are about how cool that new marauder will be and all the rest is repetition and whine posts. And somehow I have to wonder if all those whine posts come from paladin and kronos pilots. I think you missed the point, which is that out of 97 pages of feedback - only one really minor change to the skill has been implemented (and not the one that was in fact suggested by players). It just seems like feedback is more of a placebo for players than anything else.
Yeah, what I was trying to say, the maybe 2% good suggestions are being drowned in a sea, no an ocean of tears accompanied by whailing hurricanes of whine threads.
So... yeah. Totally awesome. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:05:00 -
[1972] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Yeah, what I was trying to say, the maybe 2% good suggestions are being drowned in a sea, no an ocean of tears accompanied by whailing hurricanes of whine threads.
So... yeah. Totally awesome.
Yes, the tears/whining to actual suggestion ratio is certainly way off. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:07:00 -
[1973] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.
Regular ships "should be" viable for both PVE and PVP.
Only way this should be different is if they split the remaining ships(not indies) into two different categories: PVE and PVP |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:14:00 -
[1974] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: Marauders need:
t2 resists since they are "advanced battleship"
Marauders don't need:
More tank
Wat |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
219
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:15:00 -
[1975] - Quote
Kind of makes me wish for a 7.5% web-bonus instead of the 10% for vindicator/blood/serpentis cruiser/frigs.
Otherwise, 90% webs won't be missed with all that range now.
Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
495
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:17:00 -
[1976] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.
Regular ships "should be" viable for both PVE and PVP. Only way this should be different is if they split the remaining ships(not indies) into two different categories: PVE and PVP They have a place in PVP. Bastion provides super tank, ewar immunity and 3x utility highs. They don't have a place in Incursions, however, since Bastion disables remote assistance.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:26:00 -
[1977] - Quote
90 % of this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpdgHTINik&feature=youtube_gdata_player If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:26:00 -
[1978] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:The only issue with these proposed changes is that if these ships are "high end" PVE boats, then they should have some place in Incursions. The Bastion module really limits their options here, since it disables remote reps, and Incursions are always run with Logi. Please don't take away what little VG site running there is by having a solo pilot clear them out.
Regular ships "should be" viable for both PVE and PVP. Only way this should be different is if they split the remaining ships(not indies) into two different categories: PVE and PVP They have a place in PVP. Bastion provides super tank, ewar immunity and 3x utility highs. They don't have a place in Incursions, however, since Bastion disables remote assistance.
Yeah, shoot at marauder from 20k until it enters "can't move" mode, then burn out of point range and warp off if need be.
It's not hard to avoid something that can't move.
An idea that I might endorse: All marauders receive a 90% web bonus when in "can't move" mode.
In pvp with that bonus you burn up to your target, web him, turn on fort knox tank, then blast away.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:33:00 -
[1979] - Quote
I bought my sons (nearly 3) new boots for the winter, they reacted like this.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
495
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:35:00 -
[1980] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Yeah, shoot at marauder from 20k until it enters "can't move" mode, then burn out of point range and warp off if need be.
It's not hard to avoid something that can't move.
An idea that I might endorse: All marauders receive a 90% web bonus when in "can't move" mode.
In pvp with that bonus you burn up to your target, web him, turn on fort knox tank, then blast away. You would then treat this ship on the field like you would any vindi or bhaal. This may come as a shocker, I know, but not all ships are designed to be solo ships. If you're flying a Marauder solo, then you're an idiot if you enter "'can't move' mode."
I know its tempting to create scenarios that prove your point when you post, but you at least have to make them believable.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:47:00 -
[1981] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:I also say remove the tractor bonus for a smart bomb range bonus, it would be interesting and they all have the highs for them now. That's not a half bad idea (and it wouldn't break my heart to see the tractor bonus go the way of the dodo). Oh yeah, a smart bomb range bonus. Brilliant. Love to see how that will work in fleets. I know, we will space all ships out at least 10 km apart. Oh wait, ships are slower than bricks now.
Maybe a bonus to smartbomb damage instead?
Another idea might be to allow for the installation of a secondary system of weapons. Each would get a bonus to the secondary system of weapons at small size.
Example Vargur
100% bonus to Small Projectile Turret Damage (was 100% bonus to tractor beams) Remove the drone bay to balance this
Example Kronos:
100% bonus to light drone damage (was 100% bonus to tractor beams) 25 / 75 bandwith / bay (-2 highslot, total of 6 which leaves one utility highslot after bastion module)
and the same could be done for the other 2 as well, drones for the Paladin just like the Kronos and rocket launcher / light missile launcher for the Golem. I would say RLML for the Golem but that would be a little op.
I have always secretly wanted this option on all my battleships.
|

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
365
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:48:00 -
[1982] - Quote
either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:52:00 -
[1983] - Quote
These changes look awesome, good enough to warrant the purchase of a Paladin to compliment (but never replace) my Nightmare. I do however have a couple of questions and concerns.
1) When transforming into bastion super star destroyer mode, is the ship functional, can i fire my guns and lock stuff etc, or do I have to wait out a duration timer? Same goes for the de-transformation I suppose.
2) bastion module fuel. Please make the bastion module require cap to activate, even if its pathetic like 1 unit per cycle. Cap warfare is going to be big business against these beasts, however it is foreseeable that if your shield tanked you'd forgo the cap injector entirely for ASB's, this creates disparity between the effect of cap warfare against armour tanked marauders (who almost certainly will be cap injected) and shield tanked marauders.
3) will it be possible to at least align when in bastion mode, the last thing you want is your super cool transformerthingy of death firing at all weird angles and looking a bit crap.
4) As these are available on the internal test server, what is the range of a bastion'd up Pulse Paladin shooting conflag, with all V relevant skills, 2 TC's and 1 T2 locus rig with a 5% optimal hardwiring. Forget Tachs, that's what the Nightmare is for, conflag is gonna be this seasons new black.
5) As the Vargur already looks like a giant space gun, can it please transform into megatron :D
I really hope these changes make it live some day. Forget all the whiners, look how many people commented in the HAC thread stating that you weren't being creative enough, and now look what happens when you are creative.
Keep up the good work. |

Maaloc
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:53:00 -
[1984] - Quote
So, as a result of you haphazard rebalances we now have the situation when fractional battleships are almost the same in pve as the marauders. In my opinion, you should reward players for the time they've spent learning the neccesary skills and getting isk to by these rather expensive skills...but instead you are proposing this 
You must have probably forgoten, but there's not only high-secs. This ****** rebalance of yours is a nice kick in the balls for those who use marauders in low- and null-secs and in wh-space: using this bastion module is kinda dangerous since one minute is more than enough to probe such a big ship and light up a cyno on your mission site. And without this module we get slightly castrated versions of the ships we already have.
And MJD. All marauders are tanked as hell. Why the hell would they need to use MJD in PvE? It's simply redundant. And I seriously doubt they will find any use in PvP when a middle-sized gang of cheap nagas/tengues/etc can easily **** your maradeurs just with a couple of curses (the ships I mean) even if the maradeurs are in siege-mode. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1263
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:55:00 -
[1985] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.
yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker...
i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:57:00 -
[1986] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Sal Landry wrote:You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons. Not strictly better, just more of a general progression from T1 without any outright specialization. Right now I'd bet they're going to be like Attack Battleships. Less tank that Marauders, no special bonuses, a bit more gank and speed. Battle Cube wrote:yeah, if only this proposal showed that marauders would have their own role.
The problem is any role you suggest for them, they are outclassed by ships of equal cost but less training time - Especially if used in groups of more than 1 I would wait for the re-balance on that >.> And it's actually not significantly less training time to use at equal effectiveness. For a Pirate Battleship to be "maxed" you need the same support and weapons skills as a Marauder, in some cases more like with the Rattlesnake. You also need 2 Battleship skills to 5, where as with Marauders you need 1 BS to 5 and then Marauders to 5. Except that you only need to train that once and you have access to any Marauder you have BS 5 for so when you have all 5 BS skills the difference comes out to about a month between the Bastion mod and Marauders 5 on a plan optimized for Marauders. Beyond that Pirate ships are pretty much next up on the block, either before, after or at the same time as the Black-Ops Battleships. Since we've got 2 more balancing devs who currently don't have active threads my bet would be that in about a week or two when they get back from vacation we'll see a Black Ops and some version of a Pirate ships thread (given the other Battleship hulls being on the block they may start with battleships rather than frigates)
You are saying you need both BS skills to 5 in order to match the effectiveness of a marauder? Yeah.... i dont think so. You can outperform current marauders with a pirate bs with bs levels to 4. And its not that the marauder should be better - no - its that it should have a role in which is performs not only well - but better then other ships of equal or less value. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2615

|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:58:00 -
[1987] - Quote
Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. |
|

Maaloc
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:58:00 -
[1988] - Quote
And I can't help myself from saying that: are you this low on creativity? Let's give a siege module to all the ships in the game! |

luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:59:00 -
[1989] - Quote
Since CCP is never going to give a damage bonus to bastian, taking away drone bay and bandwidth is a little heavy handed. Allowing the use of 3 or 4 heavy drones (at least with gallente and amarr since they are locked into a single damage profile) would make the ships more comparable to the equally expensive pirate battleships. A good tradeoff for this would be to make the drone bay equal to the bandwidth, so you have to choose between 3 or 4 heavy drones and having light drones. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:59:00 -
[1990] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:Hi All,
I hope I haven't set the tone in some small way for this thread from my first ever first on the front page. I said I didn't see this helping me in PvE because I don't think this Marauder hull design is going to help me do what I do better, I have an alt and mobility in missions is important for what I do.
There is a lot of nagative stuff in this thread but there are also a lot of posts, esspecially earlier on, where people's first reaction was that of, "Wow cool". I think it's nice that CCP are putting stuff into the game that is a bit different.
As I've said in other Features and Ideas threads that were trying to predict what the Marauder update would consist of is that my current navy faction battleships give almost as high DPS and higher tank whilst being faster than the old Marauders. Now the Marauders can have high tank but zero mobility - but I like to use spider tank setups - which is the origin of my initial comment.
HOWEVER
My old beloved Mega Navy Issue does 556 at 39.6Km+36Km and tanks 905DPS travels at 499 m/s (I don't drone) My potential new Kronos will do 600 at 39.6Km+54Km and tanks 941DPS travels at 439 m/s (I still won't drone)
The Tank is augmented by my on-field CS but it needs to be good to start with in case the CS has an accident like what happened once.
I won't use the Bastion module because I like to Spider Tank. I won't use the tractor beams or salvagers because I Noctis.
HOWEVER!!!!! I now get to fit three Large Armour Repair Systems - Which DOES help my Spider tank setup - and I can Dump the Web for another Booster! And I'll have a MASSIVE cargo hold for my booster charges! Yay.
So the Marauders are now better for me - simply because they get a Falloff bonus. And they may be worth the price tag too.
the falloff bonus is only during bastion mode...
|
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
308
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:00:00 -
[1991] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker... i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me
TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer.
In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field.
I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1263
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:01:00 -
[1992] - Quote
I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.
How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.
lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
484
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:02:00 -
[1993] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
christ with the webs already i think webs and especially 10% bonuses are OP in general
i think this change is just going backwards and reducing the specialisation ... i dislike giving all T2 ships better base resists .. just because their T2 doesn't mean they should have better tank than T1... and it tends to trample on navy more aswell Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
495
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:06:00 -
[1994] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time. Now with this admission I can see the web bonuses on the other ships being reduced to 7.5%. We saw a similar "trickle down" effect from the Ishtar's to the Domi's bonuses, and I could very much see the 90% web bonuses being affected in the future.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
495
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:09:00 -
[1995] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:This may come as a shocker, I know, but not all ships are designed to be solo ships. If you're flying a Marauder solo, then you're an idiot if you enter "'can't move' mode."
I know its tempting to create scenarios that prove your point when you post, but you at least have to make them believable.
Sorry to burst your bubble but any non industrial ship can be used for solo pvp. People that rely on skill tend to not rely on a fleet. I truly do hope you have experienced eve outside of a fleet  I'm sure Capitals disagree. But as long as you're saying that any subcap can theoretically do solo PVP, regardless if they're effective at it or not, well, of course I agree with that. And by that, Marauders can solo pvp as well. Just as well as any ewar ship can, or a Logi ship, etc. Also, lol...your ego is so large it's comical. "People that rely on skill tend to not rely on a fleet." Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1263
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:10:00 -
[1996] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker... i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer. In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field. I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...
cool thing about the interdiction feild is that the mjd will still work.
so yes i will be using these quite often in stain doing lev iv missions. also for pve i more then likely will not have a tsb on but for pvp i will.
if you think you can find me by all means.
and honestly i dont mind loosing a mid slot. if it means i will survive.
i would envision PL taking advantage of these ships...
Titan Brige them in... go into siege and proceed to kill everything.
how much can a kronos tank anyways with a LAAR and faction tank? i would bet a bunch.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
365
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:12:00 -
[1997] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
HALF yay, this feels a bit better, Golem with webs *-*! now that's a PVP warship! bring then to me! I forgive you for crippling my drones!
as a suggestion about the MJD but why not instead change it to MWD speed? either way, MWDs give marauders the signature of an station so they still will be vulnerable, but that way they can maneuver to get that web to use and will become way more useful for missions as well. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:13:00 -
[1998] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
You now have my blessing to marry CCP Falcon
Zeus Maximo wrote: An idea that I might endorse: All marauders receive a 90% web bonus when in "can't move" mode.
In pvp with that bonus you burn up to your target, web him, turn on fort knox tank, then blast away. You would then treat this ship on the field like you would any vindi or bhaal.
Might need to send my resume' in to ccp..... |

Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
1004
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:19:00 -
[1999] - Quote
So the only real thing which made them useful (the rep amount bonuses) is being replaced with something which only works if you're sat 10km away from the target in the first place (and by extension, scrammed).
Sorry but that's just dumb. These are not mobile ships. Jumping 100km away using MJD does nothing to close 40km on another ship, be it PVE or PVP. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
496
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:20:00 -
[2000] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes. So they can be bumped now like a regular battleship even when in Bastion? I thought the mass increase was to stop bumping, which has a hugely negative effect on tracking.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
308
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:20:00 -
[2001] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker... i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer. In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field. I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are... cool thing about the interdiction feild is that the mjd will still work. so yes i will be using these quite often in stain doing lev iv missions. also for pve i more then likely will not have a tsb on but for pvp i will. if you think you can find me by all means. and honestly i dont mind loosing a mid slot. if it means i will survive. i would envision PL taking advantage of these ships... Titan Brige them in... go into siege and proceed to kill everything. how much can a kronos tank anyways with a LAAR and faction tank? i would bet a bunch.
heh, I can see that it'll be a bit of fun and games. I have never flown with a hictor that didn't also carry a scrambler but ok. I can see that we'll have a bit of a game of "watch the bastion mode" in the same way POS gunners do with dreads. You'll still die.
But ok, It'll be a bit of fun.  Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:22:00 -
[2002] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Woah.
Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus...
This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling.
My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:25:00 -
[2003] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Woah. Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus... This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling. My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.
this, a thousand times this. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:26:00 -
[2004] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls 
The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair.
|

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
4685
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:27:00 -
[2005] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
If we're losing resists from the Bastion, is it possible that we could get a damage application bonus? For instance, a tracking and explosion radius buff would be brilliant. It'd give a clear application advantage to the Marauders in Bastion, while not buffing their DPS. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:28:00 -
[2006] - Quote
Tech 2 resists are actually overall stronger than the proposed bastion module resists were. T2 resists give a 75% bonus to one resist and a 50% bonus to a second, for a total of 125%, while the module was only 120% total.
Vargurs just get more and more ridiculous for incursions. This is a threefold EHP and tanking increase for Vargurs against EM/Therm damage. You don't even need to bother with spider-tanking or ASBs anymore, you can just face tank it solo with a max gank setup. |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:29:00 -
[2007] - Quote
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:30:00 -
[2008] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Woah. Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus... This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling. My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters. this, a thousand times this.
Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:30:00 -
[2009] - Quote
luredivino wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls  The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair. Yeah. Fine.
Now that my Pali's tank just got nerfed by 37.5%, I'm jumping right on this bandwagon.
There is no reason not to include a damage boost, or at bare minimum an application (tracking/exp velocity) boost, now that the bastion tank has been so massively scaled back. |

Galdrak
Interplanetary Trade Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:31:00 -
[2010] - Quote
could i suggest that like the command ships damnation and absolution
you make a second marauder based on your changes and leave my first gen paladin as it is.
copy and repeat for all the other races
Stick it on SISI and let the unwashed masses try it out. 1st gen against 2nd gen. cant be that hard to strap another hamster to the wheel.
stop re balancing and start evolving, let the races make improvements they would naturally make in ten years of research during times of war. |
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:33:00 -
[2011] - Quote
These changes make every ship balanced for both PVE and PVP
For PVE: Your rep power in Bastion mode is still greater than what they are now Your resists will be higher than what they are now All turrets and missiles will be able to hit small npcs due to web bonus(this solves smaller drone bay)
For PVP: You can now properly buffer tank these ships without the Bastion module You can have an ultra tank with the Bastion module on You can lock down targets when Bastion mode is on/off You can be bumped off the station/gate when in Bastion mode |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
365
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:34:00 -
[2012] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:luredivino wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls  The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair. Yeah. Fine. Now that my Pali's tank just got nerfed by 37.5%, I'm jumping right on this bandwagon. There is no reason not to include a damage boost, or at bare minimum an application (tracking/exp velocity) boost, now that the bastion tank has been so massively scaled back. Instead of defined roles, we just went right back into "Pirate Battleships are better in every way, cheaper and need fewer skills because lol." For the love of Gob, please bring back the first iteration.
What nerF!? the paladin tank just went up a notch you got the 30% more overall resistances without fitting a single module now! which will stack with the bastion rep bonus when in bastion! |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
484
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:34:00 -
[2013] - Quote
and Again minmatar have 225% resists whilst the rest get much less why????????????????????????????????? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:38:00 -
[2014] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Tech 2 resists are actually overall stronger than the proposed bastion module resists were. T2 resists give a 75% bonus to one resist and a 50% bonus to a second, for a total of 125%, while the module was only 120% total.
Vargurs just get more and more ridiculous for incursions. This is a threefold EHP and tanking increase for Vargurs against EM/Therm damage. You don't even need to bother with spider-tanking or ASBs anymore, you can just face tank it solo with a max gank setup. You need to pair that analysis with the 37.5% rep reduction.
Also the omni-taking nature of the first iteration mod lent it's self much better to mission running amongst different pirate factions. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:39:00 -
[2015] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:luredivino wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Battle Cube wrote:While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....
Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills
And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.
"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
well i think i'm done here.
i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess. You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls  The goal of Tech 2 hulls isn't to be necessarily better than other ships, but better in certain roles than other ships. Pirate battleships are better than marauders, do more damage, are faster, tankier, more turret dps, more dronebay/bandwidth. Why fly marauder at this point. Bastian mode should have a damage bonus. Nothing crazy like with dreads, but something small like a 10% bonus. Something that would give 1 effective turret and put them on par with their pirate battleship counterparts. A small tracking nerf to compensate would be fair. Yeah. Fine. Now that my Pali's tank just got nerfed by 37.5%, I'm jumping right on this bandwagon. There is no reason not to include a damage boost, or at bare minimum an application (tracking/exp velocity) boost, now that the bastion tank has been so massively scaled back. Instead of defined roles, we just went right back into "Pirate Battleships are better in every way, cheaper and need fewer skills because lol." For the love of Gob, please bring back the first iteration. What nerF!? the paladin tank just went up a notch you got the 30% more overall resistances without fitting a single module now! which will stack with the bastion rep bonus when in bastion! 2 Pages. Go back. Read.
The 30% non-stacking resist is GONE. So is the Paladin's current 7.5% per level rep bonus. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
497
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:40:00 -
[2016] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Actually, not liking the change to add web bonuses, especially given your comments the other day that web bonuses weren't needed/had drones to kill frigs/blap them at range, etc.
Further, the removal of the non-stacking 30% bonus to tank is unfortunate. Unless you're going to radically rethink Pirate BSs (hint: DON'T!), there's little reason to use one over a Marauder. The two ship lines were unique, with Marauders having tank/projection going for them, while Pirate BSs had damage/application going for them. See? Two distinct uses for the ships. You've effectively made Maurauders on-par with Pirate BSs for the metrics that gave them an advantage over Marauders.
This is a step backward, and an unfortunate one at that. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Zolian
Murderous Impulse
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:42:00 -
[2017] - Quote
The main issue I had with the previously proposed changes was the destruction of current functionality with the removal of the web bonuses.
This new proposal is both sensible and well thought out, I approve wholeheartedly. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:42:00 -
[2018] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Now there isn't much use for the bastion module with this iteration. You still have a large increase to local tank, but you won't be able to fend off much before dying.
-1 for me, the original proposal looked better. I think most people would just use the pirate bs instead for PVE, the utility highs and tracking are not worth the risk of 1 billion + isk for just the local tank boost which is unecessary for most normal situations anyway, and you won't be able to fend off a gang for long without the immense gain of resists. They are now all too slow or don't have enough drone bay to PVE competitively with the Pirate BS either.
The web bonus is counter productive for the bastion mode as well as the mode gives you increased range. Whats the use of the range bonus if the ship has to be much closer to use its web? This proposal will keep the ships shelved for everything I think, and those who do use them will only use the bastion module to see the cool animation or AFTER having already been locked down by a gang to slow down getting killed.
The original was pretty close, just needed some tweaking and less ability to be ganked while solo.
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:43:00 -
[2019] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: Marauders need:
sensor strength buff paladin/kronos need 90% web back t2 resists since they are "advanced battleships" larger drone bay if possible
Marauders don't need:
More repping power Smaller drone bay To be immobile MJD bonus
My reasoning for 90% web: Paladin: Large lasers can't track unless target is slowed down up close. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up Golem: Missiles always track and have distance, shield ship = faster Vargur: Great tracking and distance, shield ship = faster Kronos: Blasters have horrible range and need ship locked down. Armor ships are also slower and can't keep up
Never mind that the Kronos is going to be about as fast as a Golem, and 'always track' is not the same as 'do enough damage to matter', this whole post is just a silly "I need buffs" post.
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:45:00 -
[2020] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:You need to pair that analysis with the 37.5% rep reduction.
Also the omni-taking nature of the first iteration mod lent it's self much better to mission running amongst different pirate factions.
Eh, just fit an AB and move around a bit. 400 m/sec movement is worth way more than 37.5% repping against terrible NPC tracking and 60 m/sec explosion velocity missiles. |
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
437
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:45:00 -
[2021] - Quote
[quote=Makoto Priano
If we're losing resists from the Bastion, is it possible that we could get a damage application bonus? For instance, a tracking and explosion radius buff would be brilliant. It'd give a clear application advantage to the Marauders in Bastion, while not buffing their DPS.[/quote]
You did, the web. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:46:00 -
[2022] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:These changes make every ship balanced for both PVE and PVP
Quote: Your rep power in Bastion mode is still greater than what they are now
It's 37.5% less out of Bastion. This translates to 45% boost over my current tank in Bastion.
Quote:Your resists will be higher than what they are now Significantly less than what they would have been, and EHP is essentially a wash due to HP reductions.
Quote:All turrets and missiles will be able to hit small npcs due to web bonus(this solves smaller drone bay) Slightly nerfed from what it currently is, and at the price of the Rep bonus.
Stop pretending this is a good deal for PvE players just because you finally got a ****** T2 PvP Battleship.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:47:00 -
[2023] - Quote
The Golem should also have the painter bonus removed or the web. Both seems OP. I think I will just stick with my navy raven or just not use the bastion module.
Give back the speed these had before, or hell make them on par with Attack BS in speed. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:49:00 -
[2024] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:These changes make every ship balanced for both PVE and PVP For PVE: Your resists will be higher than what they are now
Only vs two types of damage. A single minor one (Kinetic) for the mission/plex Paladin, since you don't want to run against Angel Cartel and their explosive damage with your lasers anyway, thus making the explosive resistance bonus kind of useless for this role.
I was excited with these upcoming changes, but right now feel kind of disappointed. What's the point of a web strength bonus taking into account the MJD bonus? Those are really not meant to be together, imo.
Whiners won, I guess... |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
366
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:50:00 -
[2025] - Quote
New fit for a golem!
Highs 4 Torp launchers, 2 Energy Disruptors 1 NOS Bastion Mode.
Mids T2 Invul T2 Em Hardener XL ASB TP MWD SCRAM WEB
Lows BCU BCU BCU DAMAGE CONTROL
Rigs 2x Rigor Rig
See the problem? the MJD does not works here... it needs a MWD... and the target painters could be replaced by a native exp radius bonus! thus making it the most missile focused ship ever without Adding DPS you get more application. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:51:00 -
[2026] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:You need to pair that analysis with the 37.5% rep reduction.
Also the omni-taking nature of the first iteration mod lent it's self much better to mission running amongst different pirate factions. Eh, just fit an AB and move around a bit. 400 m/sec movement is worth way more than 37.5% repping against terrible NPC tracking and 60 m/sec explosion velocity missiles. These ships now move 100 m/s. With AB they can go 250 m/s. And that's at the cost of fitting the MJD, unless you want to waste a mid.
Oh, spare me.
A web to apply damage within 12 km, when my main weapon system has an optimal/falloff out to 100 km.
Incursion whining killed what would have been an amazing change to Marauders. Bring back the original iteration, please! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
152
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:55:00 -
[2027] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update. We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
-1. THESE SUCK. These changes have gone full ******. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:55:00 -
[2028] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: Oh, spare me.
A web to apply damage within 12 km, when my main weapon system has an optimal/falloff out to 100 km.
Incursion whining killed what would have been an amazing change to Marauders. Bring back the original iteration, please!
This^ Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
308
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 16:56:00 -
[2029] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update. We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes: -1. THESE SUCK. These changes have gone full r e t a r d.
ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument.
 Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:00:00 -
[2030] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update. We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes: -1. THESE SUCK. These changes have gone full r e t a r d. ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument. 
Well it seems to work, since the first iteration has been destroyed because of such posts from whiners. Gotta use the weapons you know are effective. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
155
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:00:00 -
[2031] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument. 
And that was the third edit before I posted, too. ;) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators Illuminantur Dominium Sicarioum
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:01:00 -
[2032] - Quote
The first iteration had me excited... This new one is total bull, who needs a web anyway when NOTHING survives to web range? My Paladin even as it currently is on TQ can kill pretty much everything with _TACH BEAMS_ before the rats get closer than 40km. Usually they die before they can get up to speed.
Only things that actually need droned to death are the Mk2 web drones, because they got devhaxx and fly to you @5km/s, and whne mission has them, those are the last ones to take out anyway.
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:02:00 -
[2033] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: Now there isn't much use for the bastion module with this iteration. You still have a large increase to local tank, but you won't be able to fend off much before dying.
Your tank will be greater than what it is now as the bastion bonus is huge. Therefore you will be able to fend off more when the time comes.
TheFace Asano wrote: -1 for me, the original proposal looked better. I think most people would just use the pirate bs instead for PVE, the utility highs and tracking are not worth the risk of 1 billion + isk for just the local tank boost which is unecessary for most normal situations anyway, and you won't be able to fend off a gang for long without the immense gain of resists. They are now all too slow or don't have enough drone bay to PVE competitively with the Pirate BS either.
Most pirate bs's are 1 billion isk whereas the marauders are much cheaper. Your resists will be greater than what they are now and the new web bonus will allow you to make up for your smaller drone bay. 80% web bonus, or whatever it is, will allow most guns to track and any size drone to hit perfectly. We are talking about applied dps here.
TheFace Asano wrote: The web bonus is counter productive for the bastion mode as well as the mode gives you increased range. Whats the use of the range bonus if the ship has to be much closer to use its web? This proposal will keep the ships shelved for everything I think, and those who do use them will only use the bastion module to see the cool animation or AFTER having already been locked down by a gang to slow down getting killed.
You still get the tracking and range bonus with the bastion mode. If you don't want to use the web bonus for PVE then don't put a web on your ship. Silly complaint here. PVPers WILL use the web bonus. The range bonus will be great when in bastion mode so you can shoot stuff that your gang has tackled a few k away outside of point/web range.
TheFace Asano wrote: The original was pretty close, just needed some tweaking and less ability to be ganked while solo.
The new t2 resists are pretty big EHP buff.
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:02:00 -
[2034] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:
If we're losing resists from the Bastion, is it possible that we could get a damage application bonus? For instance, a tracking and explosion radius buff would be brilliant. It'd give a clear application advantage to the Marauders in Bastion, while not buffing their DPS.
You did, the web. No, silly. Applied DPS buffs don't count. Only raw, paper, DPS counts.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:03:00 -
[2035] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update. We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes: -1. THESE SUCK. These changes have gone full r e t a r d. ROFL. Another capsuleer expresses himself with eloquent reasoned argument.  Well it seems to work, since the first iteration has been destroyed because of such posts from whiners. Gotta use the weapons you know are effective. ^ This |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
437
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:03:00 -
[2036] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: A web to apply damage within 12 km, when my main weapon system has an optimal/falloff out to 100 km.
Incursion whining killed what would have been an amazing change to Marauders. Bring back the original iteration, please!
If you are shooting 100km its not like you nee tracking killer.
Unless you are one of those missile diehards. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
302
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:05:00 -
[2037] - Quote
DTson Gauur wrote:The first iteration had me excited... This new one is total bull, who needs a web anyway when NOTHING survives to web range? My Paladin even as it currently is on TQ can kill pretty much everything with _TACH BEAMS_ before the rats get closer than 40km. Usually they die before they can get up to speed.
Only things that actually need droned to death are the Mk2 web drones, because they got devhaxx and fly to you @5km/s, and whne mission has them, those are the last ones to take out anyway.
The webs aren't need that much for PVE with the original idea but without some kind of web bonus for PVP they are restricted to very niche useage.
I will say again the original idea is a good one being hamstrung by being shoe horned onto the existing marauders.
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:06:00 -
[2038] - Quote
You can actually use the Paladin in wormholes now without immobilizing yourself. Sleeper BS missiles have an exp velocity of 60m/sec and do pure exp/kin damage so with an AB fitted and Amarr racial resists they basically do no damage whatsoever. Sleepless Upholders, the only BS that aren't favored towards exp/kin damage, have 0.017 tracking, you can actually speed tank their lasers in an ABing BS.
It's perfectly viable to run C3s in a 1250 DPS setup with three heat sinks, AB, web, two tracking computers, and a 4-slot tank. You don't need to root yourself so you're not much more vulnerable to ganks than a T3 is. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:07:00 -
[2039] - Quote
PVE people need to understand that these new changes Balance the marauder update to fit PVPers too.
The first update only helped PVE engagements.
This second one now benefits PVPers and still gives PVErs a boost. |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2011
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:09:00 -
[2040] - Quote
Web bonus and MJD+Projection bonus... What? Why bother extending our engagement range if you want us to use webs anyways?
I don't understand why people think adding those T2 resists together somehow makes it better than the 30% unstacking. Yes, if you add all the percentages together you get a higher number, but that seems like a ******** way of measuring it. Formerly you had an undeniably strong and flexible tank across all every resist and tank at the same time without needing to refit.
You're stronger against two resists now, but you're weaker in the other two. It's still a buff to the current tank, but it is not 'better' than the 30% unstacking.
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here, because by God I want to be wrong right now. I wish I could understand how T2 resists is better in application than the first iteration.
Golem is now expected to fit web, tank, TP, cap booster, and prop all in the same set of mids? Seems a bit overcrowded in there. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
|

Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
270
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:09:00 -
[2041] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
That's great to hear.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons.
The ship is now loaded with bonuses that apply at wildly different ranges (webs at 10-12km, tractors at 40-48km, 100km MJD's, thus negating the need for the web bonus and overshooting the tractor bonus). Some will say versatility, others will say lack of focus. This is Typhoon Syndrome. I don't even know how to make suggestions anymore. You're clearly dead set on this Bastion on the Marauders, and it's two steps forward, two steps back for the hulls themselves.
For everyone's sake: take a step back. More Grid, CPU, capacitor, T2 resists, range, scan res, less sig radius: all good changes. Extra mass, lower HP, lower speed, smaller drone bay, removing tank bonuses: bad changes. Making bad changes just to introduce a new module that kind of makes up for them is just ugly. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:11:00 -
[2042] - Quote
*Cracks Knuckles*
Zeus Maximo wrote: Your tank will be greater than what it is now as the bastion bonus is huge. Therefore you will be able to fend off more when the time comes.
45% more active tank (over current amounts), zero buffer tank for going into bastion. That is paltry against PvP gangs and Gank squads.
Quote: Most pirate bs's are 1 billion isk whereas the marauders are much cheaper. Your resists will be greater than what they are now and the new web bonus will allow you to make up for your smaller drone bay. 80% web bonus, or whatever it is, will allow most guns to track and any size drone to hit perfectly. We are talking about applied dps here.
Pirate BS's range from 450 million to 1 billion. Marauders are around 1.25 billion each. And how why should I have to wait until something is 12km away before I can track it. Putting on my (admittedly rather shabby) PvP had, how the hell am I supposed to get within 12km of anything when my base speed is 100m/s?
Quote:You still get the tracking and range bonus with the bastion mode. If you don't want to use the web bonus for PVE then don't put a web on your ship. Silly complaint here. PVPers WILL use the web bonus. The range bonus will be great when in bastion mode so you can shoot stuff that your gang has tackled a few k away outside of point/web range. There is no tracking bonus in Bastion. There SHOULD be, especially now. But there isn't.
Quote:The new t2 resists are pretty big EHP buff. Not. Big EHP buff against explosive damage. Nothing against EM or Thermal. Hey! Guess what the rats I always fight use?
And don't forget the HP reductions each ship is getting.
These changes suck. The failure of your best attempt to justify them is a testament to that.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:15:00 -
[2043] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:PVE people need to understand that these new changes Balance the marauder update to fit PVPers too.
The first update only helped PVE engagements.
This second one now benefits PVPers and still gives PVErs a boost. These (new) changes are huge nerf to the PvE capabilities of this ship. There is simply no way around pointing that out.
Not only are Pirate Battleships now indisputably superior (much higher DPS, base speed, almost exact same tank) but many Navy Battleships are too. All for EWAR immunity that frankly I only need once ever five or six missions if that.
If these changes go through as currently proposed, I'll be flying a Nightmare instead of a Paladin. It will hit harder, tank more, move faster and have more drones.
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:18:00 -
[2044] - Quote
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them  Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
310
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:21:00 -
[2045] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:You can actually use the Paladin in wormholes now without immobilizing yourself. Sleeper BS missiles have an exp velocity of 60m/sec and do pure exp/kin damage so with an AB fitted and Amarr racial resists they basically do no damage whatsoever. Sleepless Upholders, the only BS that aren't favored towards exp/kin damage, have 0.017 tracking, you can actually speed tank their lasers in an ABing BS.
It's perfectly viable to run C3s in a 1250 DPS setup with three heat sinks, AB, web, two tracking computers, and a 4-slot tank. You don't need to root yourself so you're not much more vulnerable to ganks than a T3 is.
Agree. It seems to me to be a sensible evolution in the right direction. Broadening the appeal of the marauder in more kinds of space.
No, you no longer have immobile mega-tank, but you now have excellent normal tank, mobility, anti-support ability AND the ability to receive remote reps efficiently.
Marauders like this could, you know... maraud!
+1
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
431
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:21:00 -
[2046] - Quote
Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:21:00 -
[2047] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:45% more active tank (over current amounts), zero buffer tank for going into bastion. That is paltry against PvP gangs and Gank squads.
Your "buffer" is better than it was with the 1.0 version, as rep bonuses don't count as buffer and 125% T2 resists are better than 120% buffer.
Quote:Not. Big EHP buff against explosive damage. Nothing against EM or Thermal. Hey! Guess what the rats I always fight use?
And don't forget the HP reductions each ship is getting.
These changes suck. The failure of your best attempt to justify them is a testament to that.
Ok, and you're also forgetting the optimal range bonus, the gigantic capacitor bonus, (Paladin has 12,500 capacitor!) fitting bonuses, and the fact that you can actually field a superb tank without rooting yourself, thus allowing the ship to be used in null and wormholes with the same degree of safety as every other ship, except it can salvage and loot the sites while running them AND has an MJD for added safety so it's immune to ganking if the ganker doesn't have a scram.
You are aware that 200m/hour from nullsec anoms is possible with these, right? All that free NPC BS loot and salvage adds up fast. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:21:00 -
[2048] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them  I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists.
Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular.
But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
431
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:22:00 -
[2049] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them 
I approve of these changes :) |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:27:00 -
[2050] - Quote
So, they are going to finally give us T2 resist instead of the 30% across the board boost from bastion. Its a pity that since I use my paladin for pve in missions, and 90% of the time I'm fighting sansha/blood raiders, those T2 resist buffs are totally USELESS.
If they declare 90% webs overpowered, then why leave them on the serpentis ships??
The 2nd iteration, i can live with, but I will be honest, removing 37.5% rep bonus on the paladin is very upsetting. I know its made up for when bastion'd, but what about when moving around? I really don't like them removing that.
DId CCP ever consider giving the marauders FLAT resists like that gift battlecruiser has??
The paladin is my main pve ship, has been for long time, and these changes are really stressing me out. |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:32:00 -
[2051] - Quote
Quote:Your "buffer" is better than it was with the 1.0 version, as rep bonuses don't count as buffer and 125% T2 resists are better than 120% buffer. Someone is forgetting the loss of the 30% omni resists of 1.0...
Quote:Ok, and you're also forgetting the optimal range bonus, the gigantic capacitor bonus, (Paladin has 12,500 capacitor!) fitting bonuses, and the fact that you can actually field a superb tank without rooting yourself, thus allowing the ship to be used in null and wormholes with the same degree of safety as every other ship, except it can salvage and loot the sites while running them AND has an MJD for added safety so it's immune to ganking if the ganker doesn't have a scram.
Yes, it can finally project damage just as well as an Apocalypse. And yes, the new cap is boss. I like MJD's. I even wrote a guide on how to triangulate using them. However:
In return: It's mobility and tank have both been significantly nerfed. As a direct consequence, it's survivability and Isk/Hour have been nerfed. To me, a PvE mission runner, these changes are much worse than the original iteration.
An immobile tank I wouldn't need if you weren't gimping my current one, and lacking any true burst survivability (read: ganks) paired with an absolutely pointless web bonus. It just... sucks. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
486
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:34:00 -
[2052] - Quote
webs need a nerf 60% is strong too begin with then giving serpentis and blood raider 90% webs are way OP.. what's the point of increasing mobility across the board whilst leaving webs so strong it seems counter productive.
T2 resists need sorting out... they need to be more omni/ fill gaping holes better otherwise they don't necessarily help the ship.. Minmatar always getting more overall resists is just unbalanced and smacks of favoritism towards them..
T2 ships don't need to have T2 resists either they are meant to be specialised at something but adding really strong resists seems to be more of a HAC thing you know resilience .. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:35:00 -
[2053] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf. |

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:42:00 -
[2054] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf.
Yeah...and they wanted to make them better. lol 
Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:42:00 -
[2055] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:TheFace Asano wrote: Now there isn't much use for the bastion module with this iteration. You still have a large increase to local tank, but you won't be able to fend off much before dying.
Your tank will be greater than what it is now as the bastion bonus is huge. Therefore you will be able to fend off more when the time comes. TheFace Asano wrote: -1 for me, the original proposal looked better. I think most people would just use the pirate bs instead for PVE, the utility highs and tracking are not worth the risk of 1 billion + isk for just the local tank boost which is unecessary for most normal situations anyway, and you won't be able to fend off a gang for long without the immense gain of resists. They are now all too slow or don't have enough drone bay to PVE competitively with the Pirate BS either.
Most pirate bs's are 1 billion isk whereas the marauders are much cheaper. Your resists will be greater than what they are now and the new web bonus will allow you to make up for your smaller drone bay. 80% web bonus, or whatever it is, will allow most guns to track and any size drone to hit perfectly. We are talking about applied dps here. TheFace Asano wrote: The web bonus is counter productive for the bastion mode as well as the mode gives you increased range. Whats the use of the range bonus if the ship has to be much closer to use its web? This proposal will keep the ships shelved for everything I think, and those who do use them will only use the bastion module to see the cool animation or AFTER having already been locked down by a gang to slow down getting killed.
You still get the tracking and range bonus with the bastion mode. If you don't want to use the web bonus for PVE then don't put a web on your ship. Silly complaint here. PVPers WILL use the web bonus. The range bonus will be great when in bastion mode so you can shoot stuff that your gang has tackled a few k away outside of point/web range. TheFace Asano wrote: The original was pretty close, just needed some tweaking and less ability to be ganked while solo.
The new t2 resists are pretty big EHP buff.
fitted these ships are over 1 billion and the hulls close to a billion.
The web bonus is within 12km, there is no tracking bonus during bastion mode, outside of web range, the range bonus the bastion module gives is mute and no longer of any use. The web bonus is cool, but doesn't fit with the Bastion Module itself. Also in a gang your probably not going to use the bastion module without a group of these together, then again you would just jump them in to point blank, bastion, web then wreak havoc. A damage bonus/ tracking bonus in bastion mode makes more sense than the range with the current iteration, however places the ships more conflict with the better tracking the Pirate BS already have.
-37.5 boost and -30 resists on shield / armor/hull is better than the t2 resists when bastion is on and gave the ships a weakness while off.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:43:00 -
[2056] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Welp, apparently I shouldn't play poker. I'm going to love playing around with these bonuses but I think it's a bit OP.  |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:44:00 -
[2057] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf.
outside of bastion mode: This ^
especially if your in amarr space doing L4 missiions or sites, and fighting EM/Therm enemies. The T2 resist give nothing to EM/Therm. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1263
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:48:00 -
[2058] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them 
Something about a player elected council... you know representative vrs direct democracy...
....
though with the resist bonus being taken away from teh bastion bonus... i would really like to see it gain something more... please add a bonus to target sectrum breaker mod... like take away the sig resolution penilty...
that would make the mod pretty good for pvp...
also can you up the rep amount to 137.5% as this would make up for the lost rep bonus... also it would add the ability for a kronos to be a shield rep ship or a vargur to be a armor rep ship...
i am sad to see my vargur loose its rep bonus...
like really sad...
please boost the bastion mod... to include it! There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
487
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:52:00 -
[2059] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them  Something about a player elected council... you know representative vrs direct democracy... .... though with the resist bonus being taken away from teh bastion bonus... i would really like to see it gain something more... please add a bonus to target sectrum breaker mod... like take away the sig resolution penilty... that would make the mod pretty good for pvp... also can you up the rep amount to 137.5% as this would make up for the lost rep bonus... also it would add the ability for a kronos to be a shield rep ship or a vargur to be a armor rep ship... i am sad to see my vargur loose its rep bonus... like really sad... please boost the bastion mod... to include it!
well since the CSM members are mainly null sec large alliance members perhaps it explains the seemingly more RR friendly marauders Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Sollana
FireStar Inc Get Off My Lawn
241
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:54:00 -
[2060] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them  I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists. Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular. But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion.
dear CCP,
the carebears have ruined what I thought was an outstanding change for a rarely used ship.
the games need to be made diverse, different, exciting..... bastion mode in an anomaly in null sec space would be awesome...
the ship would be used for pos defence and other much fun things..
FFS dont give in the the feeble minded morons that dont even use 0.0
If the CSM like the idea then use it... ignore the forum trolls |
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:56:00 -
[2061] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:57:00 -
[2062] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf. You get a 100% rep amount boost You gained a 80% web for slowing down smaller targets Old kronos mass = 101,800,000 kg New kronos mass = 113,160,000 kg fit propulsion all marauders get a web bonus New is obviously better than the old  Shinzhi Xadi wrote:
outside of bastion mode: This ^
especially if your in amarr space doing L4 missiions or sites, and fighting EM/Therm enemies. The T2 resist give nothing to EM/Therm.
Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules
There are too many modules already these ships need to perform within the bonus structure. For a Golem you are going to fit a MJD, Web, Painter, and now more resist mods, possibly an afterburner using up 3+ mids for every fit which reduces the flexibility the original concept was trying to open up. It is all over the place. This iteration lacks focus.
Get rid the tractor bonus, increase dps while in bastion or revert back to the original and tweak it. Still no real reason to use the bastion if I use all the other bonus's to effect. 100% tank and ewar immunity is great, but if I am in web range, all those things become mute except the local rep bonus. If your backed by logi, then there is no use for that either. It won't increase the uses for the bastion.
|

Wizzard117
Viziam Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:58:00 -
[2063] - Quote
Golem's web bonus is bad and illogical bcuz
1. Golem already have expl velocity bonus which somewhat helps to apply damage against fast targets. Do not really need a 2nd bonus of the same group 2. Cruise missiles can fly quite a long even with all4 skills and hit their targets for equal dmg regardless of the actual distance to them. However webs works in close range compared to that so that benefits only close range combat. Does not benefit the cruise setup that much. 3. We may not always want to shoot at close targets, we sometimes may want to let our light drones do the job without wasting ammo and without extra web micro. With the skills, drones may even kill a bunch of targets faster than {ammo_recharge,target_painter,webifier} modules cycle. 4. It looks a little bit better in a torpedo Golem, but - torpedo Golem looks for a close fight - with proposed speed nerf I believe even carriers can easily keep Golem at range of 50 km, and theres no way it can jump close enough to fire torpedoes. To approach Golem will have to use AB and be slower than every other BS with AB, or fit and MWD and be slower than an average frigate with no propulsion module at all or any cruiser with AB |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:00:00 -
[2064] - Quote
People, stop talking about level 4 missions. These are not for level 4 missions. Please do not waste six months training up Racial Battleship V, AWU V, and Marauders V for goddamn level fours. Level fours are retardedly easy. You don't need T2 resists and 100% tank bonus to survive level fours. Get a max gank navy BS or pirate BS for L4s, they do more DPS and the fact that their tank is so much weaker is totally irrelevant because L4s do crap for damage to begin with.
You use these ships when you need to tank AND deal DPS. WIth these, you lose 5-10% DPS relative to using a pirate BS but gain an immense amount of tank. In L4s you don't need the tank, so just stick with the pirate BS. You want to bring these out for warping to an anom at 0 and having 8 BS and 8 battlecruisers spawn all within 10km of you and aggroing. In L4s the spawns are spread out and aggro piecemeal. Use them in wormholes where you get heavily neuted and even light drones get switched to. |

marVLs
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:00:00 -
[2065] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
This changes are better than old for PVP, and PVE in most case, but....
Now bastion is even more useless it will tank less thanks to removal of 7.5% tanking bonus per level
Ok we got cool ewar bonuses (useful in pvp, incursions) but still, without remote reps, smaller active tanking than before no one will activate it in pvp, because for what? You use MJD to jump into enemies, and activate Bastion to show them You know how to suicide? ... It should be You jump to enemies to pwnge them (thanks to damage bonus, range bonus, and web) , so they ruuuun. OP? Where? You will be able to catch only one dude, and even not sure to kill him, because they can use remote reps, and even without it they may take the challange and kill You, because You can't move, and You tank not so well, so it will can lead to cool situations.
In missions? Meh tank is enought for them without this mode, maybe low/null anoms. Srly it's a waste of idea without raw damage bonus on bastion mode.
Still...
tractor range should be at least doubled  A little more scan res needed
Golem problem... Now with web and painter it desperately need to be torp boat as primary I mean ok it will be in pvp, but what about pve. Still cruise missiles will be better, so with Bastion damage mode, give missiles 50% of range instead of current 25%...
Overall a little better, still need some tweaks but... without damage bonus bastion is useless |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:02:00 -
[2066] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: fit propulsion
...
Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules
The new Marauders are better because we can fit modules to compensate for the nerfs... With all those extra slots they didn't give us.
The Version 1 Bastion was great because it allowed you to use more lows for tracking/damage mods without hurting survivability. Now we need to fit MORE tank in the lows (to compensate for 37.5% tank nerf) and more prop in the mid (just to make these ships flyable.) Both of these mods will come at the expense of Tracking, Projection and Damage mods. Slowing down mission running, just to get the ship up to it's current survivability. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:03:00 -
[2067] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Welp, apparently I shouldn't play poker. I'm going to love playing around with these bonuses but I think it's a bit OP.  Well, except for the mass penalty being removed, was kinda figuring the Bump-Battleship from hell wasn't going to last given the ability to instantly crash a C6 with ~3-4 of these. If it had gone live it would have been removed the first time someone sent a Freighter flying 100km off the 4-4 undock. Read back a few pages. I think I make a compelling case for these changes being rather abysmal.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:03:00 -
[2068] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:People, stop talking about level 4 missions. These are not for level 4 missions. Yes. They. Are. |

Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:08:00 -
[2069] - Quote
Arya Greywolf wrote:
Dear CCP Ytterbium,
What is your reasoning for giving the Vargur a larger drone bay than the Paladin? I don't see any compelling evidence why it should be this way. It should either be even or the Paladin should have the larger drone bay -- for the following reasons:
1) The Vargur has better innate tracking through its bonuses.
2) The Vargur has better tracking through the innate values of autocannons.
3) The Vargur is faster.
4) Amarr are generally 2nd in drones armament (whilst I admit it is the weakest point, it's still one CCP has considered and used as reasoning in the past to justify drone bay allocation).
The points listed above (especially the first 3) lead to one conclusion, to wit: That the Vargur has the greater ability to deal with smaller targets on the field than the Paladin. Why does this matter? Because drones on Battleships are, many times, the one weapon system that saves them from frigates and other targets that get under their tracking.
This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.
And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.
Thus, I see no compelling reason why the Paladin should not have the 50mb drone bay and the Vargur a 25mb drone bay -- or at the least they should be equal.
Thanks for reading this, cheers.
CCP Ytterbium Please respond. The reasoning still stands seeing as both Vargur and Paladin have the same web bonus now, essentially making it a wash.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:09:00 -
[2070] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(
the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. |
|

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:09:00 -
[2071] - Quote
Just to check, are there now no ties to racial tanking other than number of high/low slots?
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1265
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:10:00 -
[2072] - Quote
Sollana wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them  I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists. Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular. But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion. dear CCP, the carebears have ruined what I thought was an outstanding change for a rarely used ship. the games need to be made diverse, different, exciting..... bastion mode in an anomaly in null sec space would be awesome... the ship would be used for pos defence and other much fun things.. FFS dont give in the the feeble minded morons that dont even use 0.0 If the CSM like the idea then use it... ignore the forum trolls
yeah it seems like the complainers won the day. :( There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:12:00 -
[2073] - Quote
2 CCP Ytterbium stop screwing golem . now it become piece of sh*t
Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:13:00 -
[2074] - Quote
I feel like these most recent changes to the Bastion module nerfed it into the ground. It's a lot less interesting to me now, although maybe that's just because it seems like it will always be better to coast out of Bastion and catch remote reps now, instead of it being a question as to whether it's worth undeploying and instead just sitting there and taking it. I know optimal range is a disguised damage bonus, but I think I'd trade that for being able to catch reps in just about any case. Is there any chance we can get some other thing to sweeten the deploy deal a little more?
On the other hand, the Caldari Marauder finally getting a web bonus is cool, at least when undeployed, seeing as the range on webs is pretty short. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:14:00 -
[2075] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost.
Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount.
That's a significant difference. |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:15:00 -
[2076] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Good job, you've ruined Golems and Vargurs for lvl5s. ******* pointless. |

DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators Illuminantur Dominium Sicarioum
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:20:00 -
[2077] - Quote
If CCP really wants to see these hulls more in PVP, make them worth the roughly ONE AND HALF BILLION price tag. Otherwise the only time you'll see them in the dog eat cat world of current PVP is when the ultrarich nullsec alliances decide to see if they're even remotely usable.
As for the web bonus instead of tank bonus, it's utter garbage when the bastion mode is quite obviously aimed at SNIPING!
My suggestion: Instead for web strength, give them IN BASTION mode 500% web range bonus.
|

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:21:00 -
[2078] - Quote
Since marauders now will use webifiers how about giving them their speed back, doesn't really fit to have such a slow battleship make use of webs which require you to be within 10 kilometers of your target. Just sayin |

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:21:00 -
[2079] - Quote
zbaaca wrote: 2 CCP Ytterbium stop screwing golem . now it become piece of sh*t
True, I've stopped training for one when I read the las post from Ytterbium I will stay with my RNI. Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
488
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:21:00 -
[2080] - Quote
on a sidenote about webs .... besides minmatar normally only faction ships have them so it seems very homogenized and quite un racial like ... that and minnie bonus is normally range on recons and specialist e-war ships... are these now some strange e-war- combat- mini dread combo? its not very specialist anymore rather a strange combo of many specializations. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
432
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:22:00 -
[2081] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: fit propulsion
...
Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules
The new Marauders are better because we can fit modules to compensate for the nerfs... With all those extra slots they didn't give us. The Version 1 Bastion was great because it allowed you to use more lows for tracking/damage mods without hurting survivability (Armor) and more projection/application mods without hurting survivability (shield). Now we need to fit MORE tank in the lows (to compensate for 37.5% tank nerf) and more prop in the mid (just to make these ships flyable.) Both of these mods will come at the expense of Tracking, Projection and Damage mods. Slowing down mission running, just to get the ship up to it's current survivability.
But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF
100% is greater than 37.5%
If you want a better tank, use bastion mode. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
312
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:23:00 -
[2082] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference.
It's also an utter lie. Your T2 resists give you an effective local rep bonus as well as an EHP bonus as well as a bonus to the efficiency of inbound RR.
You do remember all the rage about gallente ships having a crappy local tank bonus that should be replaced with a resistance bonus?
This is giving marauders what gallente pilots can only dream of. Good reps AND good inbound reps.
Winter marauders - Mutant Ninja Space Turtles
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:25:00 -
[2083] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module.
This just destroyed the usefulness of the bastion module and cut a huge amount of the ships tankability.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.
Without that 7.5% to rep amount there tank while in bastion mode get cut down even further. As far as stasis webs go, they lacked on range more than strength IMO. A 10% to range will be more effective.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
So they can now be bounced around like a pinball while in bastion mode, another fail for the bastion module. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:26:00 -
[2084] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
You give them an MJD bonus so they can pull range, and here's a bonus that'll only work at, at best, 18km. Is there any ******* thought that goes into these changes at all? |

Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:26:00 -
[2085] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference.
To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles.
@CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders? |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:27:00 -
[2086] - Quote
Arya Greywolf wrote:CCP Ytterbium Please respond. The reasoning still stands seeing as both Vargur and Paladin have the same web bonus now, essentially making it a wash.
Autocannons are weaker than lasers, they do less base damage and in addition you're going to be into falloff to some degree, reducing damage by even more. The optimal bonus is also far stronger than the falloff bonus for the same reason. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:28:00 -
[2087] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF
100% is greater than 37.5%
If you want a better tank, use bastion mode. Please don't post anymore. Prior to these changes today you got 100% from Bastion AND 37.5% FROM THE HULL.
137.5% is greater than 100%.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:29:00 -
[2088] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.
Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
whats the point of this whole topic? nerf marauders for PvE to zero and than come with glorious module that will save them? if so u r going right way ... it would be better to leave marauders as they are now and cancel this whole bastion and all changes that came with it, it will just make them useless for both pve and pvp and ppl will only be angry cause they have good ships now and after winter expansion they will get useless brick for 1B+ isk
... just leave them their active tanking bonuses as they are, marauders were good PvE ships and i dont see reason to make them useless in PvE unless unless they use module which they shouldnt even need ... if someone want 90% web ship let them buy vindi, it has same price but much more dps ... why would u make all ships same? Just leave them their differences ... marauders - Solo PvE king as they are and should stay ... pirate BS - Fleet pve/pvp ships ... the way it is and it should stay ... if someone come with some PvP tactic with current marauders let them do so, but dont ruin whole good ship class for few players ... |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:30:00 -
[2089] - Quote
i just wonder does Ytterbium really understand what he is doin' or just randomly switching bonuses and whatches reaction of people . if yes please explain me that idiotic web bonus added to missile boat that have already that dumb legacy TP bonus Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
126
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:31:00 -
[2090] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Faith restored. 
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:32:00 -
[2091] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles. @CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders? The new resists on the Paladin:
Armor EM Damage Resistance : 50% Armor Explosive Damage Resistance : 80% Armor Kinetic Damage Resistance : 62.5% Armor Thermal Damage Resistance : 35%
Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote.
Well over 50% of missions in Amarr space are Blood or Sansha, and this helps **** all. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
432
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:32:00 -
[2092] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF
100% is greater than 37.5%
If you want a better tank, use bastion mode. Please don't post anymore. Prior to these changes today you got 100% from Bastion AND 37.5% FROM THE HULL. 137.5% is greater than 100%.
On the live server they only have 37.5%
With these new changes it will be 100% with bastion
100% is greater than 37.5%
You got a massive buff!!! You mad that it almost got tripled? and not quadrupled?
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:36:00 -
[2093] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:
But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF
100% is greater than 37.5%
If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.
Out of Bastion, my tank is 37.5% weaker. In Bastion it is 45% stronger, but with a host of penalties.
Under the old changes, my pre-Bastion tank was the same as now. In Bastion my tank was 140% stronger. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
314
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:38:00 -
[2094] - Quote
Dropping the 10x mass was very sensible. That was abusble in all kinds of ways, as was the 3x tank bastion effects - particularly on golems and vargurs.
T2 resists simply solves everyone's problem over survivability in all roles. That makes sense. removing the rep bonus is a consequence of that. You just can't have both (except on a HAC )
The marauder as it stands is now better at hisec PVE, can survive wormhole and incursions with sufficient DPS to be useful and just about has a chance of getting through a nullsec gate without being blown to bits or trapped.
Whereas before it could not crawl back to gate while tanking, now it can. Then it can jump through, MJD the f*ck out of there and warp the f*ck off.
I'm happy to see the forums working - I might even train for marauders now :-)
Winter marauders - getting better.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:38:00 -
[2095] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. It hurts the tank a bit more than you think. Tank modules 1x LAAR DC RAH 1x ENAM II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s Not to mention the huge EHP hit the Pally is taking. Old Bastion with slaves and DCII would have meant almost 200k EHP. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:40:00 -
[2096] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: fit propulsion
...
Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules
The new Marauders are better because we can fit modules to compensate for the nerfs... With all those extra slots they didn't give us. The Version 1 Bastion was great because it allowed you to use more lows for tracking/damage mods without hurting survivability (Armor) and more projection/application mods without hurting survivability (shield). Now we need to fit MORE tank in the lows (to compensate for 37.5% tank nerf) and more prop in the mid (just to make these ships flyable.) Both of these mods will come at the expense of Tracking, Projection and Damage mods. Slowing down mission running, just to get the ship up to it's current survivability. But with bastion mode you now get a 100% tank BUFF 100% is greater than 37.5% If you want a better tank, use bastion mode.
in the first iteration bonus was 100% in bastion + the 37.5 on the hull. Now it is 100% only in bastion as the hull bonus was removed. The current ships look more compelling than the proposed changes.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:41:00 -
[2097] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The marauder as it stands is now better at hisec PVE
How? How is a Paladin made better by these changes? The tank has been massively reduced by over a third, and it's mobility cut by over a quarter. It's EHP against the only damage type that matters in Amarr space is the exact same. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:42:00 -
[2098] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: Pirate BS's range from 450 million to 1 billion. Marauders are around 1.25 billion each. And why should I have to wait until something is 12km away before I can track it. Putting on my (admittedly rather shabby) PvP hat, how the hell am I supposed to get within 12km of anything when my base speed is 100m/s?
Demonstrating why you are in no position to comment on web bonuses on a blaster hull....
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
368
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:43:00 -
[2099] - Quote
people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post?
the only 2 things I disagree with now, are the MJD stuff that should be replaced with MWD speed, and the target painter bonus on the golem which is already a bit too squeezed in the mid slots. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
314
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:44:00 -
[2100] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The marauder as it stands is now better at hisec PVE
How? How is a Paladin made better by these changes? The tank has been massively reduced by over a third, and it's mobility cut by over a quarter. It's EHP against the only damage type that matters in Amarr space is the exact same. EDIT: Oh, excuse me, it's less, because of the HP reduction.
Why do you claim that it's tank has been reduced by a third? It now has T2 resistances. Resistances contribute to local tank just like local rep bonuses.
That's just simple mathematics.
Winter marauders - getting better.
|
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:44:00 -
[2101] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference.
Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:46:00 -
[2102] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles. @CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders? i believe he edited the OP |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:46:00 -
[2103] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons.
The ship is now loaded with bonuses that apply at wildly different ranges (webs at 10-12km, tractors at 40-48km, 100km MJD's, thus negating the need for the web bonus and overshooting the tractor bonus). Some will say versatility, others will say lack of focus. This is Typhoon Syndrome. Absolutely this. I was looking forward to the new marauder changes, or at least reserved judgement until I could try it out. Now I've got an odd mix of bonuses that all work at different ranges and have traded a dearly beloved old bonus (shield rep amount) for something that I've never felt the need for on my marauder(webs).
Damage resist profile changed, sure. Web bonus - ugh. |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:47:00 -
[2104] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists?
Golem in an Amarr mission now is going to fare much worse than before. Since its racial resists are kin/therm, it'll now suffer in EM and Explo-heavy missions. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:47:00 -
[2105] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post? Native T2 resists aren't going to do anything if you're not fighting faction rats in the space that best utilizes those T2 resists. 30% flat increase to all resists would have applied to any faction rat. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:47:00 -
[2106] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: On the live server they only have 37.5%
With these new changes it will be 100% with bastion
100% is greater than 37.5%
You got a massive buff!!! You mad that it almost got tripled? and not quadrupled?
Except that the ability to tank outside of Bastion went down and some people still wanted them to be useful for that.
The problem with T2 resists for a mission ship over the 30% resists is that it's only useful against specific rats and what rats its useful against varies wildly depending on what you got.
The vast majority of NPCs deal either Kinetic or Thermal as their primary damage type and every NPC type has Kinetic or Thermal as either its primary or secondary damage type.
This means that the Golem, with its mixed Kin/Therm T2 resist buff gets the largest effective bonus to tank followed by the Kronus with heavy Kinetic resists and a moderate Thermal increase. The Vargur and Paladin on the other hand, despite now having excellent resist profiles for omni-tanking PvP or Incursions are now only gaining a resists advantage against their enemy's pirate faction rats and their opponent's navy. Plus they're now dealing the wrong damage for that enemy type, though this affects the damage-locked Amarr more than the Minmattar who can still swap to EMP or Proton and only lose a bit of damage on the inherent kinetic of Projectiles.
I'm not really sorry to see the repair bonus go, but only as long as it was replaced with something that's still useful in Bastion. A Web-Velocity bonus is not terribly useful in Bastion.
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1492
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:50:00 -
[2107] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? Tank modules 1x LAAR DC RAH 1x ENAM II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:50:00 -
[2108] - Quote
I'll deal with all three of you at once:
Battle Cube wrote:
Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists?
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Why do you claim that it's tank has been reduced by a third? It now has T2 resistances. Resistances contribute to local tank just like local rep bonuses.
That's just simple mathematics.
Ager Agemo wrote:people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post?
Here it is fellas:
Amarr T1 Resists: Thermal: 35% EM: 50%
Amarr T2 Resists: Thermal: 35% EM: 50%
Guess what type of damage Amarr mission runners tank. Go on, guess.
Tech II resists are almost completely worthless in Amarr space. They increase our tank against NPC Minnies and Angels, neither of which should be engaged because they are hyper tanked against our EM/Therm lasers.
So, when I say that these changes nerf my tank by 37.5%, it's because that's exactly what it does.
EDIT: And Cade beat me to it. Again. |

Onslaughtor
Carbon Dateing
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:51:00 -
[2109] - Quote
Well now that you removed the bastion modes useful resits (30%) and instead gave the hull the only semi useful racial t2 resists, and removed the mass increase that would have made sliding in bastion possible. At this point just let bastion have RR and move.
You still could not warp or use prop mods but at least then bastion will be useful in pvp. Actually if you did that, limit the max speed to half so they can't warp off instantly after bastion. |

Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:51:00 -
[2110] - Quote
A small suggestion for the Paladin:
Swap the cap bonus with the damage bonus. That way all the marauders have their damage bonus on the battleship skill. |
|

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:52:00 -
[2111] - Quote
Battle Cub wrote:Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? T2 resists are only going to provide for stronger tanking if the rat's damage profile matches the increased T2 resist profile. Otherwise, you're losing any benefit provided by a T2 resist profile. The "old" 30% omni resist buff from Bastion 1.0 would have applied to any faction rat.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:52:00 -
[2112] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The marauder as it stands is now better at hisec PVE
How? How is a Paladin made better by these changes? The tank has been massively reduced by over a third, and it's mobility cut by over a quarter. It's EHP against the only damage type that matters in Amarr space is the exact same. EDIT: Oh, excuse me, it's less, because of the HP reduction. Why do you claim that it's tank has been reduced by a third? It now has T2 resistances. Resistances contribute to local tank just like local rep bonuses. That's just simple mathematics.
The resists are nice by themselves, but depending on the incoming damage type this is a nerf or a buff with local tank.. I don't really mind that, but it makes the use of the bastion module itself less compelling. The original post allowed for more risk more gain which is what this game is all about right?
and again the web bonus doesnt fit with the current iteration of the bastion module. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:53:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? Tank modules 1x LAAR DC RAH 1x ENAM II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s Just for fun Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s "Buff," isn't it Zeus?
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
317
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:56:00 -
[2114] - Quote
One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
Winter marauders - getting better.
|

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1374
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:57:00 -
[2115] - Quote
Nothing on the phony fake not-real Paldain capacitor bonus? :( |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:58:00 -
[2116] - Quote
Okay it seems more balanced now.
Thing with racial resists is it means ships can be tailored to content. I understand the debate over tank but with the new version but if you want to run content against serpentis then you probably have even stronger tank than before, but still need to make choices depending on the space you are in.
The mass change removal I am unsure about, bumping concerns me and it perhaps would have seemed better to prevent ships in bastion jumping through wormholes.
The hull resist bonus could also have been kept, it only added EHP in a last resort area with seemed appropriate.
Still think you can be smarter with the skill requirements than high energy physics. Advanced Spaceship command seems more appropriate for transforming. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1268
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:59:00 -
[2117] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post?
the only 2 things I disagree with now, are the MJD stuff that should be replaced with MWD speed, and the target painter bonus on the golem which is already a bit too squeezed in the mid slots.
ah ok i forgot that tech II tank will help my golem against sansha because? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:02:00 -
[2118] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
With an afterburner and selective targeting, most frigs are usually dead before they get near enough to orbit. If they're not, I've got light drones. I've also used smartbombs to effectively deal with close frigs. Nice thing about marauders is all those utility highs. Now throw an MJD on and if it gets really bad, you can just mjd away. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:02:00 -
[2119] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
When it comes at the expense of 37.5% of my tank it is most certainly a bad thing. Otherwise it would simply be useless, but the latest substitution just makes it bad. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:03:00 -
[2120] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
okay . explain me that dual marauder golem bonus. for me is freaky stupid combination . Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:05:00 -
[2121] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
The web bonus is not a bad thing, it just doesn't make any sense with the bastion module on as the main damage projection bonus is not a factor within web range. The original proposal made sense. Yitterbium stated you could hit out to 50-60km with null. Unless the frig has transversal your going to blap him at that range. The web bonus would make more sense if you could use it out to 50km+ where all these ships can hit even with their respective short range systems. The proposal (outside of the tractor beam bonus) had great fusion and weaknesses to balance the strengths.
Keep the current proposal if you want, but make sure that the web bonus works with the full set of bonus for the bastion module. Right now I don't see a reason to turn on the bastion module with a 60 second MJD and webs outside of the local tank boost. Buffer fit with logi and you wouldn't even think about turning it on and be stronger for leaving it off.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:07:00 -
[2122] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that incursions are impossible to run without a 90% Web...
Fixed. |

Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:09:00 -
[2123] - Quote
I cannot remember the last time I used/needed a web for PvE in k-space.
Maybe wormhole PvE might have a use for it if they're not already using 90% webs or a different/better set up.
Overall my opinion of the changes is still "meh". Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven. |

marVLs
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:11:00 -
[2124] - Quote
Until now all ships rebalance was good or even awesome with next iterations, but now... it's still as bad as it was, no real purpose, bonuses that collide with each other in terms of sens and usefulnes, and even if it's T2 it's still not best in even one porpose...
And most of that could fix bastion damage bonus instead of rep bonus |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:14:00 -
[2125] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:.
Delete this part:
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
|

Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:14:00 -
[2126] - Quote
Ok, here i am :)
CCP, if you realy want players use Marauders in PvP, you should think about it price... 1+k k k ! Realy? I m better use Mega instead of Kronos. Mobility is most important attribute in PvP and marauders as BS have realy low mobility. And you give them module that will decrease mobility even more!... Ofc MJD with lower activation cycle is cool... But 80 sec in siege make you dead in most situation. How about 40 sec bastion activation time (30 with skill5). So marauders will be more flexible in PvP and "no change" in PvE in that case. Make them cheaper. "But cost no matters! People use Tengu fleets!" Well, cost always matters. When fleets clash, only cost difference matter at all. Nobody will use marauders even in small gangs becuase of mobility (gate camp? No, you cant run if something will goes wrong, and you lose 1+ k k k isk). If you want BS gang you wont use this marauders, becuase you cant heal them with logi (for today like 90% of all gangs have 2+ logi).
So what we have? "Solo" ship that still useless in PvP becuase you cant run if you use "core" mechanic of the ship, 80 sec of double rep (5 T3 will blow you up in 20-30 sec) + you cant move. In gang it still useless, becuase enemy fire power will grow as well and you cant tank with logi like them. Your enemy just will blow marauders with alpha.
In PvE marauders will be much better. Mb i will even buy Kronos! |

George Fox
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:15:00 -
[2127] - Quote
I go against a lot of different types of rats.
The flat 30% resist was a lot more useful than T2 resists. Also, the changes really detract from the usefulness of Bastion mode.
If you are going to make a bastion mode...MAKE a bastion mode. Don't gimp it, and then complain later that nobody uses it. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:17:00 -
[2128] - Quote
I still can't believe people are complaining about level fours. If you need T2 resists to tank level fours, I don't know how to fix what's wrong with you.
BTW, the Paladin is still far far superior to any turret ship for Amarr space because bastion mode makes you immune to tracking disruptors. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:18:00 -
[2129] - Quote
i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4 Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
133
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:20:00 -
[2130] - Quote
Jesus H Christ in a chicken basket, I just got through the posts complaining about the 'useless' web bonus...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:21:00 -
[2131] - Quote
George Fox wrote:I go against a lot of different types of rats.
The flat 30% resist was a lot more useful than T2 resists. Also, the changes really detract from the usefulness of Bastion mode.
If you are going to make a bastion mode...MAKE a bastion mode. Don't gimp it, and then complain later that nobody uses it.
Agreed, I don't personally feel that this module will see much use within the current thinking. The people opposed to it before the update now have a ship that performs really well without the module on. I thought the previous version needed some fleshing out, but the added T2 resists and the web bonus seems lazy. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
437
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:21:00 -
[2132] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s
"Buff," isn't it Zeus?
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s
New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Yep, double the repping power |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:24:00 -
[2133] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Jesus H Christ in a chicken basket, I just got through the posts complaining about the 'useless' web bonus...
Not useless, just lacking synergy with the bastion module as currently proposed. They took off the web bonus from the paly and kronos originally because they felt it lacked synergy with what they were trying to accomplish.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:27:00 -
[2134] - Quote
So i think these changes are a step in the right direction.
the non-bastion mode of the ship will no longer be completely worse then it was.
However, i still have some criticisms....
Bastion mode and mjd bonus (either used with regular mode or bastion) is still counter productive. Projected range+ self tank+mjd. Projecting damage at range, ok, now you mjd - now you are no longer effectively applying damage. Projecting damage and tank - kiting? well, not at close range, the reduced mobility stops that. Long range sniping? Sure, but why the tank? The bastion mode By Itself still
Ideally, in my magical realm of experimental thought, the bastion mode should be less paradoxical in of itself, and furthermore be synergistic with regular mode. I shall explain below:
In order to keep it balanced the ship should have a specific role to play, and that role must be effective in actual usage. The problem is you cant do this (in this situation anyway) just through tweaking the ships static tank, dps, mobility, etc. or it will end up being better, worse, or the same as pirate BS.
if its better then pirate, then i think that's ok. The massive cost warrants it in my opinion. if its worse than pirate, then there is no reason to use marauder. if its the same as pirate, then there is no reason to use marauder because its still higher cost.
If you make either bastion or non-bastion mode straight up better, or both worse than pirate, then you have this issue....
However i think that if bastion mode was synergistic with non-bastion mode for some situations, it would have various unique roles even if each mode was by itself, generally not as good as a pirate ship.
The case could be made that this is Already true for the way the ship is currently set up: regular mode = good tank, decent dps (but not as much as pirate bs) bastion mode = [bad tank for incursions], good dps (possibly better then bs via application) this kind of setup allows you to out-dps a pirate ship, given that you have to switch back to non bastion if you are under fire. If bastion modes bonuses were a little bit better, i think this would be a good risk vs reward scenario.
For solo or missions i think regular mode needs something besides mobility (because mobility is part of damage application and probably isn't as good as the damage application of bastion mode, at least most people here are convinced of this) it would make more sense if bastion gave higher tank, but lower damage, so situation could be like this: fighting fighting fighting ohshit rep rep rep ok good fight fight fight XD
So yeah i think the current setup is a step in the right direction.... but the ship still lacks coherence.
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:27:00 -
[2135] - Quote
imo ccp has lost their way with marauders.
I give up. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:28:00 -
[2136] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:I still can't believe people are complaining about level fours. If you need T2 resists to tank level fours, I don't know how to fix what's wrong with you.
BTW, the Paladin is still far far superior to any turret ship for Amarr space because bastion mode makes you immune to tracking disruptors. It isn't about tanking the mission. The mission can be tanked with a battlecruiser ffs.
It's about a high EHP, evenly distributed resist profile that discourages ganking, or at least makes organizing a successful one much more difficult.
Because the best way to go through more level IV's in less time, and thus make more isk/hr, is to bling on damage. Faction/Officer Tracking Comps, Heatsinks and even Officer Guns. Right now, doing such is considered a fail fit, because the EHP of the ship is so abysmally low that a five man gang can gank you and make a profit.
However, if you DON'T, then a Nightmare easily out isk/hr a Pally, and for less isk in mods and hull.
The changes, as originally proposed, made a bling fit Pally a moderately responsible choice.
Now the EHP is not only right back to square one, or slightly reduced, but the Active tank is gimped as well. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:32:00 -
[2137] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s
"Buff," isn't it Zeus? Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s Yep, double the repping power
heh i think you did your quote wrong cause i never said that |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:33:00 -
[2138] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s
"Buff," isn't it Zeus? Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s Yep, double the repping power heh i think you did your quote wrong cause i never said that
Someone's forum-fu is weak... |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:36:00 -
[2139] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules
The big irritation is that the T2 resist profiles of Amarr and Minmatar ships are much more generally useful than those of the Caldari and Gallente. In particular, the Minmatar ones are so good that matching them on a Caldari ship requires using an extra module - Minmatar T2 shield ships effectively get a mid slot and its fitting space for free.
|

Jovran
HARD KNOCKS CORP LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:38:00 -
[2140] - Quote
So we now get a ship that can bounce around 100km at a time, deploy for a range increase, but also has a bonus to webs, which work within 15km or so....
It seems like the web bonus is competing with the rest of the concept. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:38:00 -
[2141] - Quote
So, I think I've collected my thoughts and those of some other people into something approaching the issues with the current proposal:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
The 30% resists was great for mission runners, T2 resists not so much because it's only a buff against specific rat types for Minmattar and Amarr and a buff against basically everything else for Caldari and Gallente. The T2 resists are great for incursion runners and Wormhole PvE as well as PvP. I'm somewhat concerned that these could be OP in such situations but I fully defer to CCP on this. They have fleet-fight in a can, and more game log data than I can count where as I have EFT and graph paper.
The mission runners thing is a bit of a problem though for a ship that was originally focused on mission running and now, with the resist changes and the removal of the repair bonus is, well, not so much so anymore.
Don't get me wrong I think the repairs are OP when combined with Bastion repairs but overall this is a debuff to mission tank for two of these ships and a weird sort of trade-off for the other two that leaves a bad taste in my mouth (I mission against Angels and my Kronos is now not so good at that).
Proposed Change: Have Bastion work like a sort of Reactive Armor Hardener but for both shields and armor. Instead of just adding resists though it drops your resists by 30% and then adds 20% back. This 20% can then be shifted around like on a Reactive Hardener to match incoming damage but shifts much more quickly to make up for the resists drop. This is a little off the wall but I think it'd be basically a flat buff to mission runners and might have niche uses in PvP as well.
This has several advantages. It means you don't have worry so much about mission specific hardeners, especially in missions like World's Collide where you can be facing two radically different damage types and it lets the Marauders benefit from their T2 resists in missions where they otherwise would not.
The purpose of the resists drop is because I don't want to be responsible for a Paladin with 98% Explosive resists and a hold full of Cap Boosters neuting out three Nagalfars while they pound away at it doing low triple digit hits. (BTW this is probably also a concern for 30% resists buffed Bastion, just less of one)
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
Overall, I don't mind seeing the repair bonus go as long as it's replaced with something that fits with the rest of the ship. The web-bonus I am not so fond of though, as I've stated before. In this instance though I'm even less fond because it doesn't fit with the range-bonused nature of Bastion.
I'm fine with the idea of jumping into the middle of a swarm of rats, hitting Bastion, and webbing and killing things. This sounds like great fun and lets me exercise my powerful tank, and half the point of a powerful tank should be getting to enjoy it. Some may disagree but I find watching thousands of damage slide harmlessly off in a mission or Incursion very satisfying and even relaxing.
The problem here is that the web bonus doesn't help at all at range, it seems mostly a buff to the ship for incursions and PvP where the T2 resists are already a massive boon and does nothing on rats that are just outside of web range.
I also have a rather large problem with the Golem which is now the ultimate support ship for Dread-Blapping with a bonus to both webs and target painters along with amazing anti-Moros tank it's in a better position than the Loki, Rapier, or Huginn to support this tactic.
Possible Solutions: Basically this comes down to either change Bastion to synergize with the bonus or change the bonus to synergize with Bastion. Right now the ranges on this ship are a little eclectic. 10-14km webs, 48km Tractor Beams, 100km MJD, and a 25% bonus to weapon ranges.
A web-range bonus would synergize rather well here but still leaves the Golem as Dread-Blap support and steps on the Bhaalgorn a bit.
A tracking bonus would be pretty cool, though two ships already have those and the Golem has a missile equivalent. Not sure if CCP wants to delve into the realm of double-tracking bonused Battleships as that might be ridiculous, again I trust their ability to test this over my own.
Lastly the range bonus on Bastion could be changed to tracking or even turret sig-res if you want to be off the wall. Again though, might be a bit silly for damage application against small targets.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
Yeah, between the bumping potential and the WHs this wasn't going to last. No other comments here. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:40:00 -
[2142] - Quote
Jovran wrote:So we now get a ship that can bounce around 100km at a time, deploy for a range increase, but also has a bonus to webs, which work within 15km or so....
It seems like the web bonus is competing with the rest of the concept.
yup, its like having a ferrari and taking part in race where winner is the slowest........ |

Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:41:00 -
[2143] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ranamar wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles. @CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders? i believe he edited the OP
So he has... I'm not used to the resist profiles being posted, so I had assumed he hadn't. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1493
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:42:00 -
[2144] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote: Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s
"Buff," isn't it Zeus? Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s Yep, double the repping power heh i think you did your quote wrong cause i never said that Yup, that was me who said that. It is a nerf to the tank in the areas when you would want that kind of tank, a 1200 EHP/s tank is pretty bad when you are stationary. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Jaded Sky
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:42:00 -
[2145] - Quote
I definitely agree to some extent. The MJD and Bastion mode work well together allowing to deploy and shoot at long range. The webs are completely the opposite being close. Don't get me wrong the bonus is still huge and will be awesome against frigs, but still feels conceptually off. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:43:00 -
[2146] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: There are too many modules already these ships need to perform within the bonus structure. For a Golem you are going to fit a MJD, Web, Painter, and now more resist mods, possibly an afterburner using up 3+ mids for every fit which reduces the flexibility the original concept was trying to open up. It is all over the place. This iteration lacks focus.
Agreed. MJD, MWD/AB, painter, web, leaving three slots for tank: EM hardener, Invuln, LSE/X-ASB... Well, I hope you didn't want more of a tank, as the only other thing is a DCU - after that you're cutting heavily into either DPS for very little (with a Power Diagnositc System), or into all that stuff the Golem's set up to do.
Quote: Get rid the tractor bonus
I like the tractor bonus.
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1493
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:43:00 -
[2147] - Quote
Sorry CCP Ytterbium, any support for this new concept for the marauders has left and is doubtful that it will come back. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:45:00 -
[2148] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Xequecal wrote:I still can't believe people are complaining about level fours. If you need T2 resists to tank level fours, I don't know how to fix what's wrong with you.
BTW, the Paladin is still far far superior to any turret ship for Amarr space because bastion mode makes you immune to tracking disruptors. It isn't about tanking the mission. The mission can be tanked with a battlecruiser ffs. It's about a high EHP, evenly distributed resist profile that discourages ganking, or at least makes organizing a successful one much more difficult. Because the best way to go through more level IV's in less time, and thus make more isk/hr, is to bling on damage. Faction/Officer Tracking Comps, Heatsinks and even Officer Guns. Right now, doing such is considered a fail fit, because the EHP of the ship is so abysmally low that a six man gang can gank you and make a healthy profit. If you DON'T bling, then a Nightmare will easily out isk/hr a Pally, and for less isk in mods and hull. This contributes greatly to their lack of use. The changes, as originally proposed, made a bling fit Pally a moderately responsible choice. That's what this was: A gank-resistent highsec PvE ship. Now the EHP is not only right back to square one, or slightly reduced, but the Active tank is gimped as well. So not only does a Nightmare retain clear dominance over the Pally in terms of raw damage, application, speed and burst tank, it continues to do so for less SP and ISK. That just isn't right.
i guess there might be a "this isnt fair" sort of thing with the resists profile, but you could always just go and fight rats that you have high resistances to, and if there are other marauder better for it you could either use them, or add a module to tank better. Regardless your tank should be plenty sufficient, you could already do L4s in t1BS, your only complaint now should be damage output.
Although i personally dont think bastions dps output is as good as it needs to be because of its reduced mobility it is slower to move into position to apply your damage, and if you choose to use MJD then you are moving out of where you want to be to effectively apply damage unless you want to MJD twice each time you want to move into range to apply damage.....but a lot of things... move....during that time... |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:49:00 -
[2149] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Xequecal wrote:I still can't believe people are complaining about level fours. If you need T2 resists to tank level fours, I don't know how to fix what's wrong with you.
BTW, the Paladin is still far far superior to any turret ship for Amarr space because bastion mode makes you immune to tracking disruptors. It isn't about tanking the mission. The mission can be tanked with a battlecruiser ffs. It's about a high EHP, evenly distributed resist profile that discourages ganking, or at least makes organizing a successful one much more difficult. Because the best way to go through more level IV's in less time, and thus make more isk/hr, is to bling on damage. Faction/Officer Tracking Comps, Heatsinks and even Officer Guns. Right now, doing such is considered a fail fit, because the EHP of the ship is so abysmally low that a six man gang can gank you and make a healthy profit. If you DON'T bling, then a Nightmare will easily out isk/hr a Pally, and for less isk in mods and hull. This contributes greatly to their lack of use. The changes, as originally proposed, made a bling fit Pally a moderately responsible choice. It allowed you to NOT bling your tank, so that ISK could be spent on damage, and then wrapped it in (potentially) 200k of armor brick/8kps permashield. That's what this was: A gank-resistent highsec PvE ship. Now the EHP is not only right back to square one, or slightly reduced, but the Active tank is gimped as well. So not only does a Nightmare retain clear dominance over the Pally in terms of raw damage, application, speed and burst tank, it continues to do so for less SP and ISK. That just isn't right. The salt in the wound is the 37.5% reduction in the tank o the current ship, paired with useless resists. Now Blinging on tank is pretty much mandatory to avoid a 5 slot tank and the crippling damage reduction that accompanies it.
TD immunity, optimal range bonus, and the ability to salvage the mission while it's being run makes up for the "inability" (2000 more armor and shield HP aren't going to save you from a dedicated suicide gank) to fit officer modules ten times over.
|

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:50:00 -
[2150] - Quote
The web bonua was added to appease a small percentage of players whom use a ship already with a small percentage of use in game.
The changes as well as the whole thing being opened up for public discourse 6 months early smacks to me of CCP having no actual room in the game design philosophy for marauders - as we know them. They don't know what to do with this relic. It was a poor choice then and it's barely worth training specifically for now. The golem is pretty much a waste of time. I coukd spend 900mil on the hull and still only run missions as fast as an rni with two rigors..
I think CCP should just scrap this bastion module idea and start again. It's a terrible idea. It is literally awful.
A much better specialisation for this ship would be if they had their hull attributes now changed out with the original bastion module stats and then iterate from there.
Kronos gets tracking and falloff. Paladin gets tank and drones Vargur gets rof and speed Golem gets velocity plus radius plus explosion velocity buffs.
make the ships different from each other. Why have them do the same thing 4 different ways? They should represent different philosophies rather than be merely different weapon platforma Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:51:00 -
[2151] - Quote
I like the new updates.
More application (not through even MOAR stacking penalized TC's/TE's or TP's) thanks to webz and a beefed up tank (with AND without bastion) makes up for the loss in mobility and actually SOLVES some issues with marauders (Lolz@ no T2 resists).
Makes much more sense now, although I think that the web-bonus should be a RANGE bonus for webs on the Golem instead, so you can use webs out to proper ranges on Torp-fits.
Sounds a little OP, but if turrets get the ability to counter "it's under the guns" with insane webs, torps should get the ability to counter speed-tanks on proper ranges.
|

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2018
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:54:00 -
[2152] - Quote
Scrapping bastion means scrapping any work Art has already done on the transformation and remodeling. Something I seriously doubt CCP is willing to do. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:56:00 -
[2153] - Quote
Another option to give the marauder a place without making it outright better then pirate... would be to give it a unique bonus like better loot drop chance, really good salvage and tractor bonuses, the ability to accept and complete missions while not in station, a drone loading bay, the ability to manufacture ammo from loot/salvage, the ability to in some way refit itself while outside of station (obviously would have to put a heavy penalty on that or time of weakness), All of these things would make it not only unique, but allow it to stay out longer and maraud. Would make it more into a sort of go out there and grab stuff kind of ship.
although personally id like to see it be just outright better then pirate, but i know that isn't happening. I like the idea of the best ship being high isk cost and high sp cost. |

Dave Stark
3553
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:57:00 -
[2154] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.
How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.
lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.
well until we know what is happening to pirate battleships we have no choice but to compare them to the current state pirate ships because that's the alternative to a marauder.
and currently there's 0 compelling reasons to pick a marauder over a pirate battleship for my purposes which is mostly incursions.
a t2 resist profile isn't worth sacrificing the damage and other bonuses of pirate battleships, it really isn't. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
321
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:57:00 -
[2155] - Quote
Grombutz wrote:I like the new updates.
More application (not through even MOAR stacking penalized TC's/TE's or TP's) thanks to webz and a beefed up tank (with AND without bastion) makes up for the loss in mobility and actually SOLVES some issues with marauders (Lolz@ no T2 resists).
Makes much more sense now, although I think that the web-bonus should be a RANGE bonus for webs on the Golem instead, so you can use webs out to proper ranges on Torp-fits.
Sounds a little OP, but if turrets get the ability to counter "it's under the guns" with insane webs, torps should get the ability to counter speed-tanks on proper ranges.
Interesting. Web range bonus would actually make them useful in C5 and C5 sleeper sites, taking the place of rapiers and lokis. On the flip side, web range bonus is OP on toast in PVP.
Winter marauders - getting better.
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
104
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:00:00 -
[2156] - Quote
Ranamar wrote: To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles.
@CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders?
Just look up the resists of the HACs.
The thing is, while the Vargur is going to do fine (expect 75/50/40/60 shield resists), even it would have had 47.5/65/58/51 when in bastion with the v1 design (slightly lower overall, but more even, which is useful any time you want an omnitank). The Golem won't do so well, probably getting 0/50/70/80, when the v1 bastion would have given 30/65/63.25/58 - better and more evenly spread. The Paladin will also do okay, and the Kronos will also not do so well.
The problem here is at least in part the T2 resist profiles - they may make sense in terms of lore, but that lore doesn't apply especially well to marauders, and IMO they'd be better off giving more even profiles to them.
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
321
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:01:00 -
[2157] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Scrapping bastion means scrapping any work Art has already done on the transformation and remodeling. Something I seriously doubt CCP is willing to do.
I completely agree, which is a shame because the bastion module is a solution in search of a non-existent problem.
Probably the result of a morning latte-fueled design meeting: "guys! I've just had a cool idea....", rather than looking at game design objectives in a calculated and scientific manner.
ah well, we're probably stuck with it for now. It can be quietly swept under the carpet in the Winter 2014 expansion.
Winter marauders - getting better.
|

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
291
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:01:00 -
[2158] - Quote
I like the current Marauders a bit less than the original for one main reason: Competing bonuses. Also the originals had lolop tanks and for that reason alone I would buy one.
There are 4 bonuses I'm looking at when I say that
Bastion mode 25% Range bonus Web bonus MJD bonus.
Now the Bastion mode and web bonus go together, those make for a strong brawler. And the MJD bonus and range bonus (which I know is part of Bastion mode) go together and make for a good skirmish battleship.
But the Bastion/Web brawler bonuses don't make sense when put on a ship with MJD/Range bonuses.
I think that Marauders should be given a role: brawler or skirmisher and given role bonuses that fit.
That said, I think they could be useful as they are, but mostly for mission runners, as they are quite expensive for PVP ships. They do seem like they will be fun solo, but with a billion isk price tag they will likely be nothing more than bait. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:01:00 -
[2159] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Scrapping bastion means scrapping any work Art has already done on the transformation and remodeling. Something I seriously doubt CCP is willing to do.
its 6 months out and this is a purely theoretical module. They probably haven't even started Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:02:00 -
[2160] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote: Kronos gets tracking and falloff. Paladin gets tank and drones Vargur gets rof and speed Golem gets velocity plus radius plus explosion velocity buffs.
make the ships different from each other. Why have them do the same thing 4 different ways? They should represent different philosophies rather than be merely different weapon platforma
golem velocity ?! huh ? maybe shiled rez , it their philosophie to have many shields + good rezs but overall idea is good Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |
|

Jaded Sky
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:02:00 -
[2161] - Quote
It doesn't need to be scrapped Bastion mode just needs to be reworked into something that is actually useable. |

Suzuka A1
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:04:00 -
[2162] - Quote
As a missile user I must say that a web bonus on the Golem seems very stupid. I would much prefer a increase in explosion velocity or a 2nd bonus to TP instead. Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H-á What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626 |

marVLs
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:07:00 -
[2163] - Quote
Suzuka A1 wrote:As a missile user I must say that a web bonus on the Golem seems very stupid. I would much prefer a increase in explosion velocity or a 2nd bonus to TP instead.
I would like something like 20% torp velo bonus instead of 10% |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:09:00 -
[2164] - Quote
Overall this feels more lackluster with the proposed changes. Outside of bastion there is a loss of ~20% tank after the new resists are factored in. Innate tank was the strong separating factor between the Marauders and the pirate BS's. With this distinction gone bastion becomes necessary for the marauders to draw any notable advantage.
While the web bonus is being returned to help I'd question how complementary this is with the MJD+Bastion philosophy (pull range instantly and apply damage at long ranges). While it does help cover a potential weakness on the apparent design intent I can't help but question if this is a positive turn. After all the BS class has what I thought were inherent and intentional drawbacks to engaging smaller targets. Were it not for the fact that pirate BS's already outperform the marauders in ranges that webs are effective in, and for most real purposes will probably continue to do so, I'd argue that this would approach being OP. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:10:00 -
[2165] - Quote
Suzuka A1 wrote:As a missile user I must say that a web bonus on the Golem seems very stupid. I would much prefer a increase in explosion velocity or a 2nd bonus to TP instead.
Golem +25% missile velocity +30% missile explosion velocity +20% missile explosion radius
there are your bastion module stats.
in addition to the pre existing golem bonuses you just fixed this ships problem. Golem now has the best way to apply damage in the game. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Minister of Death
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:11:00 -
[2166] - Quote
I don't really understand where CCP is going with these changes anymore.
Can only echo the guy a few pages back who said this is headed for full r e t a r d.
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1493
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:16:00 -
[2167] - Quote
I have to agree the new bastion module is quite pointless, it no longer tanks enough to sacrifice 100% mobility. It projects damage out long distances making a close range web kinda meh, a range bonus to the web would be better. But not at the expense of the ship tanking bonus. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2022
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:18:00 -
[2168] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Scrapping bastion means scrapping any work Art has already done on the transformation and remodeling. Something I seriously doubt CCP is willing to do. its 6 months out and this is a purely theoretical module. They probably haven't even started
One ship takes 3 months to redesign. There are four ships to do. You do the math.
CSM has seen the transformations already. That means they are already far enough into the process to show a working example. That's significant. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:19:00 -
[2169] - Quote
Repeat after me: mini-dreads are a dumb idea.
I've been saying this for what feels like months and now when presented with the opportunity to get a mini dread people are saying that it's a bad idea. like what I've been saying all along...
wake up and smell the roses people.. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2022
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:21:00 -
[2170] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Repeat after me: mini-dreads are a dumb idea.
I've been saying this for what feels like months and now when presented with the opportunity to get a mini dread people are saying that it's a bad idea. like what I've been saying all along...
wake up and smell the roses people..
So don't fly it. Fly a pirate battleship. Sell your Marauder and get on with your life. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
|

Esna Pitoojee
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
310
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:21:00 -
[2171] - Quote
Adding my voice that the new changes seem lackluster in comparison with the original versions.
I don't think there's anything I can say that hasn't already been said here - insufficient tank for immobility, lack of a clear role with the conflicting bonuses, lack of significant distinguishing features from some pirate BSes - so I'll just +1 what has been already said.
I will add something on the design process, though: CCP, when you propose something and people come up with ridiculous figures (lol10k tank), that doesn't mean you should toss your idea out the window. The idea itself may be entirely sound; don't be afraid to weaken, rather than eliminate. |

HazeInADaze
L'Avant Garde
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:23:00 -
[2172] - Quote
Booooo
I thought CCP was on to something with this class; something different and useful. Now it feels like CCP is retreating back to the known and safe. There are lots of ships with web bonuses and no sub caps with an Alamo mode. Give bastion tracking/exp velocity bonuses instead of making vindi variants.
I really like the idea of highly mobile Battleships with a strong area-control ability. Fast, hard to catch, and squishy outside of bastion. Hard as nails, and deadly beyond belief inside of bastion. It would have a completely different feel than pirate faction, be usable in PvP and PvE. But right now I just see spiralling into a spendy RR fleet.
Also I would suggest making bastion having something to do with the warp core so a scrambler will prevent bastion from activating. Then the pilot must choose to cycle up the MJD or bastion, once the scam lands all that power is lost. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:23:00 -
[2173] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Repeat after me: mini-dreads are a dumb idea.
I've been saying this for what feels like months and now when presented with the opportunity to get a mini dread people are saying that it's a bad idea. like what I've been saying all along...
wake up and smell the roses people..
mini dreads are a fine idea, its just that these are NOT mini dreads |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:27:00 -
[2174] - Quote
Bastion's PvP usefulness seems highly marginalized without it's effect on EHP after the change to only providing active tank assistance. The base resist increase help make up the difference, but at the cost of making the bastion itself far less relevant. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:27:00 -
[2175] - Quote
The more I think about it, the more I think this requires two different ship types.
A ship that is good for incursions just seems to be very different from one that is optimized for missions. The newly proposed changes clearly benefit the former, but they've gimped the latter.
Advocates of v2 are trying, weakly, to attest that the changes don't actually hurt mission running or (more honestly) that this ship isn't designed to do missions at all. Yesterday, the roles were reversed. I would argue that in this conflict, mission running should win, as that is what the hull is predominately used for/designed for currently. But that only reveals my bias as a mission runner.
I think the two roles (missions and incursions) are in direct conflict with each other, and trying to make a hull that does both will end in either disaster, or the most OP ship in Eve.
The entire concept of an all in one PvE ship needs much more thought on the part of CCP. |

Black XIII
Net 7 The Last Brigade
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:32:00 -
[2176] - Quote
I agree with needing a different ship class, leave marauders as marauders, make them quick battleships with excellent damage application, the mjd bonus could work for them, and take the cool idea of a bastion module and create a new t2 battleship class to utilize it, how about heavy battleships? |

Scarlet Thellere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:33:00 -
[2177] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:(...)
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
You say abuse, I say pvp application. One less pvp use for bastion module. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:35:00 -
[2178] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think this requires two different ship types.
A ship that is good for incursions just seems to be very different from one that is optimized for missions. The newly proposed changes clearly benefit the former, but they've gimped the latter.
Advocates of v2 are trying, weakly, to attest that the changes don't actually hurt mission running or (more honestly) that this ship isn't designed to do missions at all. Yesterday, the roles were reversed. I would argue that in this conflict, mission running should win, as that is what the hull is predominately used for/designed for currently. But that only reveals my bias as a mission runner.
I think the two roles (missions and incursions) are in direct conflict with each other, and trying to make a hull that does both will end in either disaster, or the most OP ship in Eve.
The entire concept of an all in one PvE ship needs much more thought on the part of CCP.
the 'new' version is very similar to the last, the non-bastion mode has higher tank for rr, while the bastion mode has slightly less tank. Either way its got plenty of tank |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
292
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:41:00 -
[2179] - Quote
HazeInADaze wrote:Alamo mode
If it weren't for the fact that I know how many people outside the US know what the Alamo is, that would make a totally AWESOME name  How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
292
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:41:00 -
[2180] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:[quote=Suzuka A1] Golem +25% missile velocity +30% missile explosion velocity +20% missile explosion radius
there are your bastion module stats.
Bastion mode doesn't give any turret tracking bonuses, so no, no missile tracking bonuses for you  How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
|

Khori Renalard
Those Once Loyal
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:42:00 -
[2181] - Quote
Quoting the relevant poast:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:YaSiS wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.
Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed. Who cares about this? You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays. Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship. All part of the plan, I assume. +1 I'm not sure I follow this  - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns. However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
Seriously? |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1558
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:42:00 -
[2182] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Wow,
So you take ships that were at least pretty good for PVE, even if they kind of stunk for PVP, and now made them so they suck for both.
|

Mocktar Olachenko
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:43:00 -
[2183] - Quote
First iteration was way more interesting. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:44:00 -
[2184] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think this requires two different ship types.
A ship that is good for incursions just seems to be very different from one that is optimized for missions. The newly proposed changes clearly benefit the former, but they've gimped the latter.
Advocates of v2 are trying, weakly, to attest that the changes don't actually hurt mission running or (more honestly) that this ship isn't designed to do missions at all. Yesterday, the roles were reversed. I would argue that in this conflict, mission running should win, as that is what the hull is predominately used for/designed for currently. But that only reveals my bias as a mission runner.
I think the two roles (missions and incursions) are in direct conflict with each other, and trying to make a hull that does both will end in either disaster, or the most OP ship in Eve.
The entire concept of an all in one PvE ship needs much more thought on the part of CCP. the 'new' version is very similar to the last, the non-bastion mode has higher tank for rr, while the bastion mode has slightly less tank. Either way its got plenty of tank v1 offered a 30% strait resist buff with a 100% tank buff over current. v2 offers a 45% tank buff over current. Out of Bastion, there is a 37.5% tank nerf.
I and several others have already articulated why the T2 resists are pointless. The web is pointless, and comes at a huge price. The speed nerf in conjunction with all of this is terrible.
These changes make the ship worse at running most missions. Only high EWAR missions see improved performance. That is fewer than one in five. To ice the cake, the ship is now more susceptible to ganking. |

maGz
Chaos Reborn
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:45:00 -
[2185] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Let me get this straight - web bonus, mjd bonus and range bonuses... really? |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
292
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:49:00 -
[2186] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote: So you take ships that were at least pretty good for PVE, even if they kind of stunk for PVP, and now made them so they suck for both.
Marauders are IN NO WAY being nerfed for PVE.
A loss of a tank bonus, which is gained by if you use Bastion module and then some. (also giving you EWar immunity and a range bonus) in exchange for an 82.5% web bonus sounds fair enough. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:50:00 -
[2187] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too. 82.5% webs are still pretty significant. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
292
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:51:00 -
[2188] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:maGz wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Let me get this straight - web bonus, mjd bonus and range bonuses... really? What exactly do you want these abominations to do? you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.
82% webs, totally half assed 
The web bonus makes sense with the bastion mode, if that is the direction CCP is going. If they are sticking to bastion mode as is, and it seems that way, drop the range bonus for tracking and do something else with the MJD bonus. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

maGz
Chaos Reborn
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:52:00 -
[2189] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too. 82.5% webs are still pretty significant.
And totally useful when I MJD 100km away every 60 sec and blap stuff with my 50km Neutrons... (yay)
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:53:00 -
[2190] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Wow, So you take ships that were at least pretty good for PVE, even if they kind of stunk for PVP, and now made them so they suck for both. How do you figure? Seems the resist increases make up for the loss of the rep bonus and they all get web bonuses. Granted the 2 that had them got their bonus reduced, but the effect is still very significant. Outside of drone capabilities most of the ships have only gained. The resist bonuses are worthless for 75% of the missions you would try to run, and in exchange for them the ships gave up 37.5% of their tank, 25% of their speed, gained 20% more mass and lost 10% HP. |
|

To mare
Advanced Technology
239
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:53:00 -
[2191] - Quote
whats truly happening: art team: "hey we made a super cool animation for marauder this will solve everything" ytterbum: "yeah that sound cool but lets add some stats to it" . . players: "oh shiny thingies that dont solve the main problems with the ship class, **** the animation give us a real boost" . . . . . . ytterbum: "hey art team the players dont want to see our cool animation they rather want a real boost" art team: "**** them we spent so much time doing this we have to use it" ytterbum: "ok lets try to mess around with the stats again without solving the problem agaim" |

Just Lilly
117
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:54:00 -
[2192] - Quote
+1 Warp Strength, please Attack Battleship agility / velocity, pretty please Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
427
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:55:00 -
[2193] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
And here I was hoping for some solo/small gang active rep fun since I couldn't be remote repped... "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
394
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:56:00 -
[2194] - Quote
Golem having web AND TP bonus is ridiculous.
Scrap bastion mode entirely, especially since you've realized that full T2 resists on marauder base stats is the way to go.
Boost sensor strength, and keep the changes involving boosting pg/cpu.
I'm not entirely sold on giving all four of them (or three if you come to your senses and don't give it to the golem) web bonuses, but it's not that bad. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:58:00 -
[2195] - Quote
maGz wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too. 82.5% webs are still pretty significant. And totally useful when I MJD 100km away every 60 sec and blap stuff with my 50km Neutrons... (yay) Sure, the applications on the bonuses aren't complementary but that in no way makes the bonus lackluster for when you do use it. Incursion marauders won't likely be using Bastion+MJD but will benefit from increased resists and web bonuses. Both will benefit from the application bonuses. |

Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:00:00 -
[2196] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote.
Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever)
|

Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:01:00 -
[2197] - Quote
I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:02:00 -
[2198] - Quote
Nam Dnilb wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote. Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever) Exactly. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:04:00 -
[2199] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The resist bonuses are worthless for 75% of the missions you would try to run, and in exchange for them the ships gave up 37.5% of their tank, 25% of their speed, gained 20% more mass and lost 10% HP. 10% HP isn't going to affect my PvE performance at all. The tank loss is actually made up in part by the resist increase, more if you're tanking against your racial resist strength. Add bastion and you're tanking 2x what you were prior. Also using a bastion+some of the new bonuses expands effective range to the point that mobility is far less of a concern. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:04:00 -
[2200] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them. Ooooh, I like this idea. |
|

Dave Stark
3554
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:07:00 -
[2201] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too. 82.5% webs are still pretty significant.
i'll admit i didn't bother doing the maths but with the webs being that close why didn't ccp just give them a real web bonus so they are actually able to compete with pirate battleships?
i mean, let's look at the kronos and a vindicator in an incursion setting (i love incursions) we're trading the superior dps and now superior webbing ability of the vindicator for t2 resits... which the vindicator makes up for by having 1 more mid slot for an extra invuln or EM amp, or whatever it needs.
so really, the kronos is just a crap vindicator that generally just takes longer to train for since you won't really miss gal BS V on your vindi if you have more important things to train.
*shrug*
the only way these marauder changes actually going to be worth **** is if pirate battleships get unapolagetically bludgeoned with the nerf bat. that remains to be seen. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:08:00 -
[2202] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:10% HP isn't going to affect my PvE performance at all.
It makes the ship 10% cheaper to gank.
Quote:The tank loss is actually made up in part by the resist increase,
No, it isn't. Because....
Quote:more if you're tanking against your racial resist strength.
Most of the time, you aren't. If you're Amarr, you NEVER are.
Quote:Add bastion and you're tanking 2x what you were prior. 1.45x, and it isn't worth it.
Quote:Also using a bastion+some of the new bonuses expands effective range to the point that mobility is far less of a concern. Burning to gates is a huge isk/hr concern. As much as I love them, MJD make that very difficult, even with trig.
|

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:08:00 -
[2203] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote: GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
u messed up bonuses 1st they similar 2nd 7.5% for velocity and 5% for radius
and that i want on first post  Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:10:00 -
[2204] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote: GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
u messed up bonuses 1st they similar 2nd 7.5% for velocity and 5% for radius
yeah typo, fixed now. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
292
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:13:00 -
[2205] - Quote
To mare wrote:whats truly happening: art team: "hey we made a super cool animation for marauder this will solve everything" ytterbum: "yeah that sound cool but lets add some stats to it" . . players: "oh shiny thingies that dont solve the main problems with the ship class, **** the animation give us a real boost" . . . . . . ytterbum: "hey art team the players dont want to see our cool animation they rather want a real boost" art team: "**** them we spent so much time doing this we have to use it" ytterbum: "ok lets try to mess around with the stats again without solving the problem agaim"
You got that right except for the players' line. We were all "5k dps tank? Bring it on!" Then CCP went "Oh crap someone made a 5k DPS tank with dual ASBs on a Vargur... better nerf the tank"
And now we're at this Frankenstein of a ship class.
CCP, rework Marauders again, keep the bastion mode, but make the bonuses work together. Don't give them two skirmish bonuses (range + MJD) and two brawler bonuses (web + immobile Bastion) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2025
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:14:00 -
[2206] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them.
Love it. Quoting for great justice. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |

Orakkus
Winds of Dawn Kraken.
126
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:17:00 -
[2207] - Quote
Going to throw a bit of a wrench in this love/hate fest, cuz it needs it.. especially since some of those posters appear to have the memory and attention span of a gnat.
First off, CCP Rise, CCP Fozzie, and CCP Ytterbium has thus far done a GREAT and UNPRECIDENTED job in rebalancing all these ships. And many of the arguments posted here are just based on "what ifs" rather than what is actually happening. This is not the CCP of old where once they changed it, years would pass before they even thought about it again. It is a NEW CCP and one I have throughly enjoyed. Have I disagreed with them? Yes I have, but it didn't take long for me to realize that while I may not like a specific change, the overall difference was impressive and well thought out.
Second, this new ship rebalancing team has never left off something when it was still broken. And by "broken" I mean the "not at all viable", not the "It doesn't work like it used to" broken. They have been quick to respond, quick to re-envision, and quick to change. Let them bring the original Marauders to the test server and see what they do, the worst thing that will happen is that a.) We'll see the new animation, and b.) they'll go back to the drawing board. The fact that they are still pondering what to do with the ships that have been the most difficult to repurpose (EAFs, Black Ops, etc) shows that they are taking this task seriously. So, let em try it.. even if it fails miserably.. it won't be there forever.
I've seen these arguments from when they re-did Tech 1 frigates (I'm a Minmatar pilot btw), Tech 2 frigates, Tech 1 destroyers, Tech 1 Industrials, Tech 1 Cruisers, Tech 1 Battleships, etc.. you all noticing a pattern? It may be different people, but dang.. just let them SHOW us what they want to do and let us play with it before we go all "burn jita" on them.
Who knows.. they may find out something even more fun to try. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:18:00 -
[2208] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:It makes the ship 10% cheaper to gank. Which is mostly irrelevant as that 10% is too marginal to make you a target when compared with the mods you have fit. If you weren't putting yourself at risk prior you still won't be after. Also the full 10% only plays out when firing into the resist holes for factions that do not shift those holes with their T2 resists.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Most of the time, you aren't. If you're Amarr, you NEVER are. Amarr is an outlier, yes. Vargur, being applicable against any faction, can draw benefit selectively. Kronos/Golem are aligned well with their opposing factions.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:1.45x, and it isn't worth it. Only if you are Amarr does the 1.45x number really play out.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Burning to gates is a huge isk/hr concern. As much as I love them, MJD make that very difficult, even with trig. A bit of effort can easily land you close enough to negate the loss, which is really all that matters. |

maGz
Chaos Reborn
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:21:00 -
[2209] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:To mare wrote:whats truly happening: art team: "hey we made a super cool animation for marauder this will solve everything" ytterbum: "yeah that sound cool but lets add some stats to it" . . players: "oh shiny thingies that dont solve the main problems with the ship class, **** the animation give us a real boost" . . . . . . ytterbum: "hey art team the players dont want to see our cool animation they rather want a real boost" art team: "**** them we spent so much time doing this we have to use it" ytterbum: "ok lets try to mess around with the stats again without solving the problem agaim" You got that right except for the players' line. We were all "5k dps tank? Bring it on!" Then CCP went "Oh crap someone made a 5k DPS tank with dual ASBs on a Vargur... better nerf the tank" And now we're at this Frankenstein of a ship class. CCP, rework Marauders again, keep the bastion mode, but make the bonuses work together. Don't give them two skirmish bonuses (range + MJD) and two brawler bonuses (web + immobile Bastion)
This. Figure out what you actually want with the Marauders rather than spewing out random ideas that give people the impression you don't even know your own game.
Unless ofc it is a matter of having done some fancy graphics and now you just have to figure out a way of implementing into the game. If that's the case, allow me introduce Bastion MKII: Does nothing for the ship but makes it look really cool,. which quite frankly should be more important than some weird ideas about ships being useful. All credit goes to the Art Dept. (those guys rock!). |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:21:00 -
[2210] - Quote
Bullet Therapist didn't fixed bonuses on his post they should be GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 7.5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level(instead 5%)
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level (ins. velocity) 4% bonus to shield resistances per level and only then golem can be compared with damage application to CNR Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |
|

marVLs
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:21:00 -
[2211] - Quote
CCP have good intentions, but those changes are far from their assumptions. They want Marauders to be primary PVE kings, and add to them PVP possibility (not so important because of their price, so no mather what it will be nishe).
I see they want to buff those Marauders for that in other way than DPS increase but it's not so easy, let's see:
- in lvl4s the most important thing is DPS with not some heavy gimmick because You want to do them as fast as possible and don't frustrate Ok we got on Marauders less ammo consumption and tractor bonus (too small, should be x3), but in reality it's not enough, no need for more tank in bastion, ewar immunity is useful in cery small percentage of missions, T2 resists are bad on ship like Paladin (weakest res are most important...), bastion range mode is useless, because You will actually loose damage when standing and shooting NPC's in falloff etc instead of go close to them, only tracking bonus will be useful in some missions like Damsel. Give to that still bad scan resolution, nerf to speed and drones and no way someone will choose them instead of RNI or Pirate BS's.
- in incursions most important is DPS or EWAR, or both like on Vindi...
I like transformation concept and this second action mode but now those bonuses on Bastion are useless, with or without it Marauders are still bad compared to Pirate or Navy BS's. That's why i insist on changing Bastion tanking bonuses to raw dps bonuses with possibility to remote reps. Here, in one change they are viable for missions, incursions (remowe web bonuses so they wont monopolize them) and PVP |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
411
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:22:00 -
[2212] - Quote
Good job CCP
PPl will moan 4lvl4 dream tank..but this is def move in right direction.
It is still tanking monster its just not obviously over the top so. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:26:00 -
[2213] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote: The web bonus makes sense with the bastion mode, if that is the direction CCP is going. If they are sticking to bastion mode as is, and it seems that way, drop the range bonus for tracking and do something else with the MJD bonus.
I love the MJD bonus. It's unique, has interesting possibilities, and should be fun. Heck, MJDs are already fun, and with a much more generous cooldown they'll be great.
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:28:00 -
[2214] - Quote
"Order, counter-order, disorder" Napoleon
Looks like there are 2 camps here more or less.
The first one seems to be players who have trained and actively fly marauders. They have been asking for minor buffs for 5 years. But mostly want to keep the game play style more or less the same. It is a long train to fly these ships the way they want to.
The 2nd is people that like the new ideas of a micro jumpy/mini-dred and the new game play and tactics, fleet doctrine, solo, small gang, pvp and pve options it might bring.
These 2 camps will never reconcile with each other. I believe EVE is big enough for both.
Re-balance the marauders from the base in game now stats and for example: T2 resists (it is a T2 ship), more sensor strength equal to T1 BSs 21-22, and possibly more drone bandwidth & bay. Have the 4 high slots and noctis like bonuses for them. This IMHO would not be OP and or change much just be a little better at what it already is good at. The expense alone will keep them in check.
Now the new micro jumping bastion ship at lest for the Amarr use the Abaddon model as the Amarr dred is the same art style have the animations of siege modes match would be cool. Use the 1st bastion iteration stats with what ever hull stats you care to try. Make a NEW ship for eve for a new style of play.
Win win for every body. Unless some of the fun goes away when some people are not having what they like taken away for the enjoyment of those who will probably never even train for the changes they are championing.
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:33:00 -
[2215] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Nam Dnilb wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote. Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever) Exactly.
Yup, don't get it CCP. Thank you for acknowledging my earlier proposition but for godGÇÖs sake what is up with those resists? EM and Thermal lowest for Paladin? Explo and Kin for Vargur? ThatGÇÖs hilarious. Seems Kronos and Golem are fine. I know that stat line is standard for T2 Amarr and Minmatar ships, but if they are still mainly PvE ships match their strongest resists to their racial NPS rat types!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ps. Webs are useless IMHO but if so many people want them, than who am I to argue...
|

marVLs
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:36:00 -
[2216] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them.
Sure better than CCP version but i will personally make Golem pure torpedo boat ;) So 20% to torps (only) velocity Second exp velo changed to exp radius Shield res changed to something else |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
118
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:38:00 -
[2217] - Quote
Rroff wrote:I doubt it would live long against multiple dreads tbh even a single one can put hurt on it - BS sig + low speeds/stationary even with a lot of EHP will go down very fast - ignoring lock times a single decently fit moros can put over 1m points of damage on it within a minute and the alpha can be quite savage I've seen a 300k EHP raven (C5 pulsar + max siege links) vaporised by the alpha from 2 revelations.
I've also seen a Bhaalgorn tank the explosive damage from two Naglfars while neuting them out. It's all down to how much Logi you can put and keep on field. If you can keep a Golem up then your dreads are doing a lot more damage and you can buffer tank a Golem to the point that it can and will stand full alpha from a Moros with these resist changes. All you need is enough Basilisks to the shields back to full and since the repair modules cycle roughly twice for every one cycle of the Moros's guns that's not too hard.
Also keep in mind that the primary place where Dread-Blapping is a major form of warfare is Wormholes where it's hard to bring more than 3 capitals onto the field at a time.
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Scrapping bastion means scrapping any work Art has already done on the transformation and remodeling. Something I seriously doubt CCP is willing to do. its 6 months out and this is a purely theoretical module. They probably haven't even started
Actually CSM confirmed they got to see WIP transformations on three of them at the Summit.
Katrina Oniseki wrote:One ship takes 3 months to redesign. There are four ships to do. You do the math.
CSM has seen the transformations already. That means they are already far enough into the process to show a working example. That's significant.
The ~3 months thing from the art thread was for a redesign on the level of the Bombers, this is adding animations to existing hulls as far as we know, meaning it's less of a time investment overall.
Still though, you are correct that they're a bit past the conceptual phase on Bastion transformations. |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:41:00 -
[2218] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Harvey James wrote:isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them  I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists. Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular. But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion.
+1 this ^ |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
118
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:42:00 -
[2219] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote: So you take ships that were at least pretty good for PVE, even if they kind of stunk for PVP, and now made them so they suck for both.
Marauders are IN NO WAY being nerfed for PVE. A loss of a tank bonus, which is gained by if you use Bastion module and then some. (also giving you EWar immunity and a range bonus) in exchange for an 82.5% web bonus sounds fair enough.
Except that the web-bonus doesn't work terribly well with Bastion and while in Bastion we're back to having to fit more resist mods to get similar effective tanking potential which removes the attractiveness of trading immobility for 30% resists and more damage applications fitting space. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:45:00 -
[2220] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Nam Dnilb wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote. Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever) Exactly. Yup, don't get it CCP. Thank you for acknowledging my earlier proposition but for godGÇÖs sake what is up with those resists? EM and Thermal lowest for Paladin? Explo and Kin for Vargur? ThatGÇÖs hilarious. Seems Kronos and Golem are fine. I know that stat line is standard for T2 Amarr and Minmatar ships, but if they are still mainly PvE ships match their strongest resists to their racial NPS rat types!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Frankly, *I* don't get it. It's like people flying Marauders had never seen other T2 ships. Whole T2 lineage has the same (ok, similar) resist characteristics and only on Marauders they are meh??? Geez...
Hint: advanced ships tank not against their mission rats, they tank against their faction enemy (Amarr tanks Minmatar and vice versa and so on). |
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:47:00 -
[2221] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: The web bonus makes sense with the bastion mode, if that is the direction CCP is going. If they are sticking to bastion mode as is, and it seems that way, drop the range bonus for tracking and do something else with the MJD bonus.
I love the MJD bonus. It's unique, has interesting possibilities, and should be fun. Heck, MJDs are already fun, and with a much more generous cooldown they'll be great.
MJD makes a lot more sense on a ship that is not this one |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
366
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:47:00 -
[2222] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
0/10 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
119
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:50:00 -
[2223] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:Going to throw a bit of a wrench in this love/hate fest, cuz it needs it.. especially since some of those posters appear to have the memory and attention span of a gnat.
First off, CCP Rise, CCP Fozzie, and CCP Ytterbium has thus far done a GREAT and UNPRECIDENTED job in rebalancing all these ships. And many of the arguments posted here are just based on "what ifs" rather than what is actually happening. This is not the CCP of old where once they changed it, years would pass before they even thought about it again. It is a NEW CCP and one I have throughly enjoyed. Have I disagreed with them? Yes I have, but it didn't take long for me to realize that while I may not like a specific change, the overall difference was impressive and well thought out.
Second, this new ship rebalancing team has never left off something when it was still broken. And by "broken" I mean the "not at all viable", not the "It doesn't work like it used to" broken. They have been quick to respond, quick to re-envision, and quick to change. Let them bring the original Marauders to the test server and see what they do, the worst thing that will happen is that a.) We'll see the new animation, and b.) they'll go back to the drawing board. The fact that they are still pondering what to do with the ships that have been the most difficult to repurpose (EAFs, Black Ops, etc) shows that they are taking this task seriously. So, let em try it.. even if it fails miserably.. it won't be there forever.
I've seen these arguments from when they re-did Tech 1 frigates (I'm a Minmatar pilot btw), Tech 2 frigates, Tech 1 destroyers, Tech 1 Industrials, Tech 1 Cruisers, Tech 1 Battleships, etc.. you all noticing a pattern? It may be different people, but dang.. just let them SHOW us what they want to do and let us play with it before we go all "burn jita" on them.
Who knows.. they may find out something even more fun to try.
Quoting this because oh gods so true. Seriously people:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Some one slap him, he's hysterical. Its a rebalancing man, calm down
This, with a wet fish, to this entire bloody thread.
We have over four months to hack each other to pieces, lets not litter the floor with missing limbs just yet people |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:53:00 -
[2224] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Quoting this because oh gods so true. Seriously people: Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Some one slap him, he's hysterical. Its a rebalancing man, calm down This, with a wet fish, to this entire bloody thread. We have over four months to hack each other to pieces, lets not litter the floor with missing limbs just yet people Why procrastinate?
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
119
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:54:00 -
[2225] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:"Order, counter-order, disorder" Napoleon
Looks like there are 2 camps here more or less.
The first one seems to be players who have trained and actively fly marauders. They have been asking for minor buffs for 5 years. But mostly want to keep the game play style more or less the same. It is a long train to fly these ships the way they want to.
The 2nd is people that like the new ideas of a micro jumpy/mini-dred and the new game play and tactics, fleet doctrine, solo, small gang, pvp and pve options it might bring.
These 2 camps will never reconcile with each other. I believe EVE is big enough for both.
Re-balance the marauders from the base in game now stats and for example: T2 resists (it is a T2 ship), more sensor strength equal to T1 BSs 21-22, and possibly more drone bandwidth & bay. Have the 4 high slots and noctis like bonuses for them. This IMHO would not be OP and or change much just be a little better at what it already is good at. The expense alone will keep them in check.
Now the new micro jumping bastion ship at lest for the Amarr use the Abaddon model as the Amarr dred is the same art style have the animations of siege modes match would be cool. Use the 1st bastion iteration stats with what ever hull stats you care to try. Make a NEW ship for eve for a new style of play.
Win win for every body. Unless some of the fun goes away when some people are not having what they like taken away for the enjoyment of those who will probably never even train for the changes they are championing.
You're missing the third camp that want PvP monstrosities for small gang/solo work and are pushing for that. Those would be the ones primarily yelling for the web bonus and full T2 resists. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:54:00 -
[2226] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Nam Dnilb wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote. Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever) Exactly. Yup, don't get it CCP. Thank you for acknowledging my earlier proposition but for godGÇÖs sake what is up with those resists? EM and Thermal lowest for Paladin? Explo and Kin for Vargur? ThatGÇÖs hilarious. Seems Kronos and Golem are fine. I know that stat line is standard for T2 Amarr and Minmatar ships, but if they are still mainly PvE ships match their strongest resists to their racial NPS rat types!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Frankly, *I* don't get it. It's like people flying Marauders had never seen other T2 ships. Whole T2 lineage has the same (ok, similar) resist characteristics and only on Marauders they are meh??? Geez... Hint: advanced ships tank not against their mission rats, they tank against their faction enemy (Amarr tanks Minmatar and vice versa and so on).
You quote me but you clearly dot read what I say... As a pvp pilot I have ton of ships to fly: Abso, Sacri, Loki, Legion, Tornado, Oracle... I can live without a T2 PvP BS (but it would be nice). I did say that the resist setup on racial T2/T3 ships is standard for PvP ships. Marauders are still PvE ships with improved PvP capability (by adding those t2 resists). But how Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Vargur can be good for PvE if their resist don't match the rats they are fighting?
I HAVE good pvp ships - now I want a good pve ship... If it can do pvp - great - if not - plenty of others to chose from... |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
106
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:55:00 -
[2227] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Frankly, *I* don't get it. It's like people flying Marauders had never seen other T2 ships. Whole T2 lineage has the same (ok, similar) resist characteristics and only on Marauders they are meh??? Geez...
No, they're often meh on other ships too. However, those other ships generally have a PvP/faction war origin in lore, so it's justified, if annoying.
|

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:59:00 -
[2228] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote:I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them. Love it. Quoting for great justice.
This is indeed much better than current version, however I would make the repair amount at least 50%, maybe a tech 2 bastion module for it. also would add a bonus to MWD to the role, I like that you got rid of tractor beam bonus, but nothing replaced it. You added another low slot as well, this is good, they each need either another low or mid instead of 8 high slots.
edit: and whats with the low base velocity, it's a marauder (look it up), if anything it should be slightly faster than currently on TQ, that would be balanced because bastion locks you in place. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:03:00 -
[2229] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote: But how Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Vargur can be good for PvE if their resist don't match the rats they are fighting? Maybe because both Paladin and Vargur are natural omni tankers? Which means that no matter what rats you fight you can easily tank against them. None of filling this explosive hole on Kronos and EM on Golem. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
120
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:05:00 -
[2230] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Why procrastinate?
Better to save the violence for the spaceships. Only get into a blood feud over forum posts if it's really urgently nessessary to send a point (or the post in question is in Crime and Punishment or the CAOD forum) |
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
438
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:05:00 -
[2231] - Quote
Starting to see more and more people push for things that pvpers need.
Obviously a damage bonus would be great but I'm sure thats pushing it...... The 82% web is definitely sexy though!
One thing is still puzzling me. Why are all of these sniper pve people complaing about the web like they have to put it on their ship? Do you put a scram on a falcon? No.... you keep range. Do you have to use every bonus? No... look at the gnosis! |

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:08:00 -
[2232] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
At first I thought the changes to marauders was kinda MEH, but this makes me want to train all 4 racial battleships to level 5 ! Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg http://bit.ly/13cGuW0 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
120
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:10:00 -
[2233] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: But how Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Vargur can be good for PvE if their resist don't match the rats they are fighting? Maybe because both Paladin and Vargur are natural omni tankers? Which means that no matter what rats you fight you can easily tank against them. None of filling this explosive hole on Kronos and EM on Golem.
Still doesn't change the fact that the Golem and Kronos are in a better position to tank every type of mission rat than the Vargur or Paladin. With high Kin/Therm resists you can ignore half or all of the resists needed for every mission rat in the game since they all deal Kinetic or Thermal as a primary or secondary damage type and 8 out of 14 rat types deal primarily both.
The argument is not that these are worse than what's on live, it's that the 30% omni-resists from Bastion were better. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
120
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:11:00 -
[2234] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Starting to see more and more people push for things that pvpers need.
Obviously a damage bonus would be great but I'm sure thats pushing it...... The 82% web is definitely sexy though!
One thing is still puzzling me. Why are all of these sniper pve people complaing about the web like they have to put it on their ship? Do you put a scram on a falcon? No.... you keep range. Do you have to use every bonus? No... look at the gnosis!
These are not supposed to be PvP focused ships. You have the Pirate Battleships and Black-Ops to be primarily PvP ships. |

Martin Astos
The Forsaken Legion
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:12:00 -
[2235] - Quote
Ok too agitated by the changes attempted here to put my thoughts properly so a quite scream then a few days to write an educated reply.
- Why can't there be ships specifically designed at the request of the Empires for their hoard of capsuleers now keeping the pirate problem down (why cant there be a specific set of PvE ships it makes as much sense and provides as much different activity as say mining ships, Noctis, scanning frigates.
- Please stop thinking like a headless chicken style player (running straight at the enemy and firing point black no mater what) and giving us a stasis web bonus on ships that are by their nature supposed to deal with everything at range or leave the smaller stuff for the drones (Simply: WEBS ARE POINTLESS ON THE MARAUDERS ATM REMOVAL WAS ALWAYS THE ONLY OPTION)
- The Bastion module is a nice idea but very confused, it should either be about close range application and tank or range and damage, not half-and-half.
- The base speed reduction removes multiple play styles forcing everyone no matter how they want to play to fit propulsion (something that again is contrary to the current ships and large chunks of the changes).
- The MJD is only just more useful in pve as a chocolate teapot would be in the same situation, in summary the dictionary definition of a work around.
- Only common problem for all the marauders is their stupid sensor strength meaning any mission featuring ECM has to be run with multiple ECCMs just to complete it.
- Current changes are going to result in either a demand for compensation of SP as you are doing no different that changing the ships role completely (similar to a mining to combat change on a ship with one of the longest skill training times) or an unsubscription as atm Marauders make PvE (Level 4s) the only accessible, fun and enjoyable combat available in Eve to players like myself.
I am sure there's more I want to say but at the moment am too wound up to think straight. Well done for creating a setup that is the only thing ever to make me actually truly annoyed, angry and wishing for senior staffing intervention and staffing "reallocation.GÇ¥
Best of luck fixing this almighty mess you have dug us all into and I hope your retractions and fixes arrive before I finish my educated and structured full gun volley.
EDIT TO: "You don't need to put the web on" comments, Yeah you don't but then again it doesn't need the bonus, if you really wantg a web fit one, don't get CCP to mangle the ship so they can justify the ineffective web bonus. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:12:00 -
[2236] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Starting to see more and more people push for things that pvpers need.
Obviously a damage bonus would be great but I'm sure thats pushing it...... The 82% web is definitely sexy though!
One thing is still puzzling me. Why are all of these sniper pve people complaing about the web like they have to put it on their ship? Do you put a scram on a falcon? No.... you keep range. Do you have to use every bonus? No... look at the gnosis! face palm. why we should have useless bonuses that can potentially somewhere maybe some time be good when we can have something good instead right now? btw gnosis is noob ship Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
695
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:12:00 -
[2237] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Starting to see more and more people push for things that pvpers need.
Obviously a damage bonus would be great but I'm sure thats pushing it...... The 82% web is definitely sexy though!
One thing is still puzzling me. Why are all of these sniper pve people complaing about the web like they have to put it on their ship? Do you put a scram on a falcon? No.... you keep range. Do you have to use every bonus? No... look at the gnosis! The complaints stem from the fact that the new web bonus comes in place of a tank bonus that is currently well used. Since resists don't always match up the only way to gain it back in bastion, which comes with it's own issues. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:12:00 -
[2238] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:"Order, counter-order, disorder" Napoleon
Looks like there are 2 camps here more or less.
The first one seems to be players who have trained and actively fly marauders. They have been asking for minor buffs for 5 years. But mostly want to keep the game play style more or less the same. It is a long train to fly these ships the way they want to.
The 2nd is people that like the new ideas of a micro jumpy/mini-dred and the new game play and tactics, fleet doctrine, solo, small gang, pvp and pve options it might bring.
These 2 camps will never reconcile with each other. I believe EVE is big enough for both.
Re-balance the marauders from the base in game now stats and for example: T2 resists (it is a T2 ship), more sensor strength equal to T1 BSs 21-22, and possibly more drone bandwidth & bay. Have the 4 high slots and noctis like bonuses for them. This IMHO would not be OP and or change much just be a little better at what it already is good at. The expense alone will keep them in check.
Now the new micro jumping bastion ship at lest for the Amarr use the Abaddon model as the Amarr dred is the same art style have the animations of siege modes match would be cool. Use the 1st bastion iteration stats with what ever hull stats you care to try. Make a NEW ship for eve for a new style of play.
Win win for every body. Unless some of the fun goes away when some people are not having what they like taken away for the enjoyment of those who will probably never even train for the changes they are championing.
You're missing the third camp that want PvP monstrosities for small gang/solo work and are pushing for that. Those would be the ones primarily yelling for the web bonus and full T2 resists.
I am not sure what they want. I sure don't think all this is Re-balancing any more it's a whole new concept and as such deserves it's own class. Not shoehorned into the current marauder class, but something original on another ship hull IMHO.
|

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:14:00 -
[2239] - Quote
Seen the update. Sounds interesting. Better base resists is good, cba to check the ehp but I expect it looks far more useful now when not in Bastion mode. Removing the armour/shield bonuses on the hulls is interesting, should balance out nicely with the resist change. Webs = nice!
The web is critical here, it's going to make the Bastion significantly less vulnerable than it was, in order to get close and stop it MJD'ing you'll be in web range, likely under neuts (presuming pvp fit) and you're going to potentially take a lot of damage.
Great changes there imo :)
I still feel they need more drones. Even if it's just cargo and not bandwidth. |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
560
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:15:00 -
[2240] - Quote
Nerfing the tank wasn't a good option. Given the ship's price, one would expect that a part of the ship is exceptional. Not forgetting the fact that you are also unable to receive reps.
About the mass issue, I dissagree. There are other ways to prevent wormhole abuse than by nerfing the mass. Just prevent people from jumping when using bastion module, like when cloaked at less than 5km of a wormhole... Obviously you already have the code for that.
About the stasis web... you're giving the golem two medslot bonuses while it does not even have 8 mids ! Given the range of a stasis, that's highly surprising when you compare it with the range of a torpedo or a cruise missile. I would have preferred a bonus to explosion radius, for being much more polyvalent.
I feel like you're starting to miss something with the whole bastion module... Nerfing it by removing its features isn't the right thing to do. G££ <= Me |
|

Trajan Al'Thor
New Eden Order Sev3rance
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:18:00 -
[2241] - Quote
Welp, no Marauders for me.
Web bonus is ish. In most PVE, range is your friend, and a web bonus is not. (Kronos being the exception) Without the resist bonus, there is little reason to go into bastion. No local rep bonus means that there is no chance of being able to tank ______ while in bastion, especially since there is no way to get remote rep... Essentially, sensor strength remains crappy, and inside bastion, the battleship has no tank.
-GIVE US OUR DRONES BACK -More dps would be nice in Bastion, although I understand not having it. -Rep Bonus come backkkk.
Couple of thoughts: -Scrap Bastion altogether & add frigate bridging as someone else mentioned in this thread. -Go back to the drawing board on Bastion, I like the idea, but not its current implementation. -These ships appear to be primarily for use at range. Web bonus = fail. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:22:00 -
[2242] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: But how Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Vargur can be good for PvE if their resist don't match the rats they are fighting? Maybe because both Paladin and Vargur are natural omni tankers? Which means that no matter what rats you fight you can easily tank against them. None of filling this explosive hole on Kronos and EM on Golem. Still doesn't change the fact that the Golem and Kronos are in a better position to tank every type of mission rat than the Vargur or Paladin. With high Kin/Therm resists you can ignore half or all of the resists needed for every mission rat in the game since they all deal Kinetic or Thermal as a primary or secondary damage type and 8 out of 14 rat types deal primarily both. Here I don't agree. I've been flying exclusively Gallente stuff since I registered and only until quite recently when I crossed to Minnie gear. And I know all too well how this 10% explosive resist hurts. The thing is that for given skill set, fitting, etc. you can tank, say, Serpentis with one hardener while for Angels you need 2 or 3. Not a big problem in itself, it's just you have to plan your fitting accordingly (for me it meant dropping a magstab sometimes). Meanwhile with Vargur you can safely allocate fixed amount of slots, usually 1 or 2, for tanking resists and you're ready to go, everywhere. Everywhere you dare to go, that is.
I understand that for anoms grinding one of those ships and only one will be optimal but for missions where you always expect 3 or more rat types Vargur beats Kronos hands down.
Quote: The argument is not that these are worse than what's on live, it's that the 30% omni-resists from Bastion were better.
Well, I liked this bonus too. |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:24:00 -
[2243] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:So, they are going to finally give us T2 resist instead of the 30% across the board boost from bastion. Its a pity that since I use my paladin for pve in missions, and 90% of the time I'm fighting sansha/blood raiders, those T2 resist buffs are totally USELESS.
If they declare 90% webs overpowered, then why leave them on the serpentis ships??
The 2nd iteration, i can live with, but I will be honest, removing 37.5% rep bonus on the paladin is very upsetting. I know its made up for when bastion'd, but what about when moving around? I really don't like them removing that.
DId CCP ever consider giving the marauders FLAT resists like that gift battlecruiser has??
The paladin is my main pve ship, has been for long time, and these changes are really stressing me out.
+1 This too.
Pally is use against rats that shoot EM/Therm damage. T2 resists help not all in 80% of missions. Losing the rep bonus make this a serious nerf, meaning that you have to use bastion mode just to survive missions that the current Pally does with ease.
T2 resists will help enormously in WH's, however, so I guess my Pally will now do nothing else.
CCP Ytterbium, your original idea was bold and daring, something new and exciting. These revisions dilute that idea and make ships worse than there now in the process. Please return to you original vision, and tell the whingers to go take a flying leap. |

Juno Libertas
Pawnstars INC
379
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:28:00 -
[2244] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:So the only real thing which made them useful (the rep amount bonuses) is being replaced with something which only works if you're sat 10km away from the target in the first place (and by extension, scrammed).
Sorry but that's just dumb. These are not mobile ships. Jumping 100km away using MJD does nothing to close 40km on another ship, be it PVE or PVP.
Have to agree here. Marauders just got f**** over in this update.
So why would anyone want to use a Bastion Modules? - No Resist Bonuses - No Rep Armor Bonuses (Easier to kill) - No more Remote Rep - No Mass Penalty (Open to Bumpage that you cant avoid)
So is CCP telling me that the only bonuses to using a bastion module is that you get better range/falloff along with ewar immunity. ******* awful. At least let them keep their rep bonuses... |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4055
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:30:00 -
[2245] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
What about preventing ships with an active bastion module from jumping or using wormholes? We already use MWDs on plated orcas to collapse holes anyway. I don't understand your concern with marauders.
The bastion module should do something useful. Consider at least extending web range, rather than web effectiveness. Perhaps a web strength bonus on the hull, web range bonus on the bastion module? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Cael Autumn
e X i l e The Initiative.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:32:00 -
[2246] - Quote
I, Cael Autumn, would like to formally dissent to these changes proposed herein.
I would further like to formally refer to said changes as "non-emergent regressive quackery"
What these "non-emergent regressive quackery" attempt to accomplish is merge skirmish tactics with brute-force, maneuverability with immobility, and tankiness with vulnerability. It is a goal not impossible to accomplish, but one that should simply not be accomplished.
It is not feasible in PVP to 'harass" a hostile fleet by jumping in, scooting a hundred kilometers away, then activate a module that immobilizes you for over a minute. Regardless of damage projection bonuses, without ludicrous damage application bonuses, you become a sitting duck waiting to be tackled and killed.
What it does do is create a hard-counter to the sole hindrances in various types of NPC farming, such as Guristas' jamming, Sansha's Tracking Disruption, or Serpentis' Sensor disruption, and make a vessel already obscenely niched for pve, even more so niched.
In this context, niche is the opposite of emergent. Emergent gameplay is critical to the function of a sandbox. You should be given tools to do with what you want, not given tools that can do one thing. If you want marauders to be good at PvE, do so in a manner that makes them viable for those same qualities in other types of gameplay. If you want them to have a drawback, make it one that affects it in all situations (see: sensor strength, doesn't really affect pve, makes them useless in pvp.)
Theorize with me, now, let's give them comparable, hell, let's give them 'good' sensor strengths of around 30 points, and make their drawback their scan resolution. Give the bastion module a bonus to scan resolution to counteract that. It would be a drawback for PVE, causing longer lock times for NPCs, and also give a drawback in PVP.
Now, are we keeping this micro-jump-driving-skirmish gameplay? Then it needs to jump, 'siege' quickly lock up approaching tackle, use damage application (tracking, explosion radius & velocity, etc) to kill it BEFORE it's in web range, then leave siege and warp out.
There's other possible options, like giving them a bonus to ECM burst strength to get-out-of-dodge, or perhaps moving Deep-space industrials +2 warp core strength over to them. Also, the bastion module could instead of being a simple siege-module, lock in the marauders align and velocity similar to the spool up of a mjd, not allowing it to turn around or slow down. That would be more dynamic than current siege mechanisms. A MWD would cycle down by mid-cycle and the marauder would slow down to it's normal speed (or perhaps 50% normal, requiring some re-warp time after exit).
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
696
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:33:00 -
[2247] - Quote
Juno Libertas wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:So the only real thing which made them useful (the rep amount bonuses) is being replaced with something which only works if you're sat 10km away from the target in the first place (and by extension, scrammed).
Sorry but that's just dumb. These are not mobile ships. Jumping 100km away using MJD does nothing to close 40km on another ship, be it PVE or PVP. Have to agree here. Marauders just got f**** over in this update. So why would anyone want to use a Bastion Modules? - No Resist Bonuses - No Rep Armor Bonuses (Easier to kill) - No more Remote Rep - No Mass Penalty (Open to Bumpage that you cant avoid) So is CCP telling me that the only bonuses to using a bastion module is that you get better range/falloff along with ewar immunity. ******* awful. At least let them keep their rep bonuses... Local armor rep is still bonused in bastion. This effectively makes bastion like having the marauder you are used to tank wise and more, only crippled. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
439
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:33:00 -
[2248] - Quote
I never stated that the web bonus should take away from the marauders tank. Every ship in eve should be able to PVE and PVP depending on what the owner wants to do. CCP never said the marauders were meant for purely PVE. It's selfish to think that they are making these things for missions.
I'm all for a damage bonus but the marauders in a pvp situation need to be able to lock down their opponents. The bonused web now allows a pilot to do that but for some reason the PVE "specialists" think its directed at them. Don't fit a web if you don't want one!
Juno Libertas wrote: So why would anyone want to use a Bastion Modules? - No Resist Bonuses - No Rep Armor Bonuses (Easier to kill) - No more Remote Rep - No Mass Penalty (Open to Bumpage that you cant avoid)
Marauders just got a 100% rep bonus...... Marauders just got t2 resists Don't use bastion mode if you want RR Don't rely on the stations EHP to save you. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
699
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:40:00 -
[2249] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:I never stated that the web bonus should take away from the marauders tank. Every ship in eve should be able to PVE and PVP depending on what the owner wants to do. CCP never said the marauders were meant for purely PVE. It's selfish to think that they are making these things for missions.
I'm all for a damage bonus but the marauders in a pvp situation need to be able to lock down their opponents. The bonused web now allows a pilot to do that but for some reason the PVE "specialists" think its directed at them. Don't fit a web if you don't want one! Which would be a glorious solution if it could be used in reverse for the rep bonus. But it can't as we have gained nothing that would allow us to make it up outside of bastion. What this means is that today's working Paladin config doesn't work under the proposed in a situation you would actually use it. It's a total loss for every active tank config outside of bastion including those with webs since that bonus was reduced as well. T2 resists are largely meaningless when you know you won't be tanking that damage.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
111
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:40:00 -
[2250] - Quote
Cael Autumn wrote:I, Cael Autumn, would like to formally dissent to these changes proposed herein.
I would further like to formally refer to said changes as "non-emergent regressive quackery"
Hear hear! Tip of the hat, Sir. Good show, wot wot! Excellent form! |
|

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
360
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:41:00 -
[2251] - Quote
CCP. Could you explain what use you actually see these ships seeing? And how the new stats fill those roles any better than the current stats do?
The only spot I can see improved slightly is Paladins in Incursions (Outside Bastion mode). Bastion mode also makes them the go to ship for crazy EWar heavy PvE missions.
However I see literally zero PvP application. The reason battleships hardly ever get used for PvP and people prefer the T3 cruisers, shield nano BC gangs or smaller ships often is straight up mobility. A Battleship fleet has to be large enough to take a blap dread hotdrop and have it's own cyno in the wings with it's own dreads & carriers also. Otherwise it will get shadowed & tackled by a faster more manoeuvrable fleet.
Marauders are now even worse at this than they already were before this update.
So. I see even less PvP being done in Marauders than currently is.
I think an explanation of your actual vision for how these ships should be used in general game play, not just a once a month outing, but how you expect a pilot to use them in a daily fashion is needed. Not just a bunch of stats. |

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:43:00 -
[2252] - Quote
Complaints at losing tank in non bastion mode are entertaining. Everyone constantly bitches that armour/shield boost bonuses are terrible and that resist bonuses are better. So we get the T2 bonuses that from memory are about as strong if not better than a 4% resist bonus and people complain! RR Logi is going to be very strong on these ships now. This is a huge buff from before even ignoring the bastion module. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
111
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:45:00 -
[2253] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Complaints at losing tank in non bastion mode are entertaining. Everyone constantly bitches that armour/shield boost bonuses are terrible and that resist bonuses are better. So we get the T2 bonuses that from memory are about as strong if not better than a 4% resist bonus and people complain! RR Logi is going to be very strong on these ships now. This is a huge buff from before even ignoring the bastion module. PvPer's complain. Incursion runners complain.
The Rep boost bonus has always been what sets these ships apart from Pirate Battleships for mission running, and now it's been severely gimped. T2 resists are pointless in 80% of missions, or 100% if you're Amarr. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
967
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:49:00 -
[2254] - Quote
I think CCP need some more time to think this through... Putting work in since 2010. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:52:00 -
[2255] - Quote
I am one of the few people in this thread that probably has actually trained Muraders to V and uses them for their intended PVE purpose. And after reading this, and many of the suggested follow up posts - I've got mixed feelings. Most of them negative (unfortunately).
I see bad game design repeating itself - Semi - Spammable Micro Jump Drives ----> Ultimate Kiter.... If this isn't bad, why the nano nerf?
I see a ship role repeating itself - We just got new hulls that fill this position - Tier 3 Battle Cruisers
I have some serious reservations about the existing proposals. They sound neet, but it also sounds strikingly similar to another role that currently exists - Tier 3 Battle Cruisers.
Tier 3's are supposed to be the Kiting, At range boats - utilizing large caibre weapons. A tier 3 Battle cruiser, just off it's 8 large guns, already pushes out the same DPS as it's equivalent Murader. With a MWD it's faster and dictates range better - and is far cheeper. Why would I want to utilize 1-2 muraders doing this when I can have 20 Tier 3's?
Forcing a fit to rely on the Micro Drive and Long range artillery support - means the ship is going to become fragile... As people fit tracking and damage mods... And to put yet another super kiting fleet on the board is going to produce more player based complaints... Isn't the inability to catch your target what caused player base frustration and the Nano Nerf several years ago?
****
The 'triage' module (Lets call it what it is for simplicity) - is an interesting idea. And level V's just became easier to accomplish with a dedicated, single ship uber tanker - no logi required. But again, the relative short range on the webs mean output DPS from these "Bastions of Defense" immobile defense stations just became a non issue.
Triage carriers, from my understanding, are only really used in POS repair situation, or by logi carriers in large fleet fights. And super caps going into 'triage' do it when they are un-harassed and are POS bowling. No one actively commits a triaged capital to a live combat situation without the express mindset that the ship in question - is going to go boom.
So you want to do this to a battleship? that can cost as much as a small carrier? So we have new skills and new modules - that won't be committed to a fight in a practical sense, and take the Murader out of it's only current effective niche role - Mission Running.
********
The Murader currently has a very strong PVP backbone and intelligent bonuses for PVP without being horribly broken. The one MAJOR flaw is that the sensor strength is so low that light drones jam them. This is one focal point is the primary reason Muraders are not utilized in fleet combat, are not deployed to wormholes, and will never leave high sec. A gallente Frigate can reliably jam these beasties out. Do a hot fix, push those sensor strengths over 20 (like you did the HAC's), and you would instantly see Muraders suddenly becoming fielded and utilized across new eden.
The ships aren't perfect. The web bonus (which is great for PVP, not for PVE) then make sense, as the muraders become close range brawlers of doom, but still kited, and shot down by the kiting ships (Tier 3's).
As far as the graphical transformation - I have a sinking suspicion that the art department has been tasked. The shiny has had money spent on it, which means that feature (good or bad) is probably already in the pipeline and cannot be stopped.
CCP, please consider putting that on a Clone
**********
CCP, guys, split the ship hull. Give us two variants. Something similar to the old (current), and THEN go play with the new wonky, I will jump into two bad ideas at once.
Try a re-balance on the Muraders BEFORE your do a re-design.
PVE Reballance - Mission runners don't use webs, we use dual tracking links and long range guns. Change the Web Speed Bonus to something else. A simple change to making it a Web RANGE bonus instead would make it ver viable.
KEEP our tractor range - We shoot out stuff at 40+++ KM (My kronos shoots out missions at 80+ KM, with my sentries hitting at those ranges). That 40km tractor beem really does make a difference in completion times and convience of use. (Yes, We paid for a 1.0-3.0 billion isk ship for convience. Were old foggy crotchety eve players, we deserve a little reward in ease of use).
I don't know how putting T2 resists on my boat will compare to my 37.5% repair bonus. I need to be able to tank level IV's and still put damage modifiers on my ship. Weigh that carefully please.
********
How to get a Murader to PVP How to get a Murader to leave High Sec
Push Sensor Strength to over 20 like you did our Hacs.
Pirate Navy Ships are still faster, do more DPS and have far more "Fun" slots for more interesting layouts. They are still the natural counter to a Murader.
Unleash the Murader as it currently is, I think you guys will be pleasantly surpised at just how well they will mesh and jive with the existing Ship Landscape as they are currently written.
The only major point of ship re-balance I see needing to happen to keep muraders from perma tanking / cur their cargo bays in half or more.
******
That's how you address a re-balance.
Push the re-design to another hull.
PLEASE:
Re-Balance FIRST
Re-Design SECOND -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
699
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:53:00 -
[2256] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Complaints at losing tank in non bastion mode are entertaining. Everyone constantly bitches that armour/shield boost bonuses are terrible and that resist bonuses are better. So we get the T2 bonuses that from memory are about as strong if not better than a 4% resist bonus and people complain! RR Logi is going to be very strong on these ships now. This is a huge buff from before even ignoring the bastion module. No, a 4% resist bonus is better as it helps no matter what is hitting you. It would make the vargur more viable to all the factions in can hit the resist holes of. It would allow the Paladin to benefit against EM using factions, which are it's primary focus being heavy EM bound. RR setups will be stronger, but why are you using marauders with RR? Pirate vessels have better DPS and the Vindi has better webs. This is part of the issue, the changes push the ships into areas where they are already outperformed at the cost of performing well where they already do. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
122
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:00:00 -
[2257] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:I am not sure what they want. I sure don't think all this is Re-balancing any more it's a whole new concept and as such deserves it's own class. Not shoehorned into the current marauder class, but something original on another ship hull IMHO.
I understand this argument, I just don't agree with it. The Marauders have always been good at tanking, regardless of what the obsolete in-game description for the class says. Adding things to buff that and bring them up to a full T2 specialization is not at all out of line with the ships.
Bastion is going to be divisive but overall it's a cool idea and fits with the class as its been in the past.
hmskrecik wrote:Here I don't agree. I've been flying exclusively Gallente stuff since I registered and only until quite recently when I crossed to Minnie gear. And I know all too well how this 10% explosive resist hurts. The thing is that for given skill set, fitting, etc. you can tank, say, Serpentis with one hardener while for Angels you need 2 or 3. Not a big problem in itself, it's just you have to plan your fitting accordingly (for me it meant dropping a magstab sometimes). Meanwhile with Vargur you can safely allocate fixed amount of slots, usually 1 or 2, for tanking resists and you're ready to go, everywhere. Everywhere you dare to go, that is.
Yes, the problem is that you're condemning two of the four to having to fit more mods against most rats, where as with T1 hulls it's much more even and entirely based on what resist type you're tanking on. If a Paladin wants to make use of its explosive resists it need to be fighting Rogue Drones (which pay poorly overall) or Angels where the two best damage types to deal are the ones it can't deal.
The Vargur is in a somewhat better place by being able to swap damage types fairly freely but still has to fit more mods against most rats than either the Gallente or Caldari do. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:00:00 -
[2258] - Quote
Please. it's still one ship class to balance with one application, which is designed for.
Here a a few group of people, who wants a perfect mission runner for Lvl4, the next group want a perfect ship for incursion, the next a perfect plex/anno runner and so on... and an other group wants to make these ship class a viable PVP ship.
Now, what stay this class for? One ship class can't be over the top in all disciplines!
I for myself enjoy Marauders how are they now, a little fixing here and there and it's ok.
But i like the idea of a "modus" the ship performs in an other way, what i dont't like is the sitting duck idea. I think we shouldn't get lost in details. Lets them do there Job, they done mostly good rebalancing, trsust them, let us test then und then we can constructive criticism them.
I'm lucky to be not the one, who has to rebalance this class. |

Oberus MacKenzie
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:07:00 -
[2259] - Quote
I really liked what CCP was trying to do in the first place. Make a T2 battleship, which is supposed to be awesome, that is only PvE oriented into something that also has PvP applications. The original concept for the bastion module was on the right track, in my opinion. It gave the marauder solo PvP potential and increased it's application in wormholes, plexes and level 5's at the cost of being forced to commit to one position for 60+ seconds and a hypervulnerability when not in bastion mode.
The revised bastion stats require about the same number of defensive fitting slots for PvE as is required now, the tank is a little better than the status quo but not by enough to make it worth the ISK risk in PvP or higher end PvE, it leaves the ship even more vulnerable when not in bastion mode than the first iteration and the hull has an extremely questionable web bonus where it could have something else. In PvE, nothing bigger than a frigate gets within 20km of a marauder and drones typically deal with the frigates.
I can pretty safely say that with the new stats I would never even think about putting a marauder into PvP. We're talking about a 1b ISK hull (not including mods) that requires a lot of extra training, doesn't work well in a fleet, is highly susceptible to alpha and has to be locked in place for a relatively long time in order to operate at its full capacity. Using a marauder to solo rather than something like a hyperion or maelstrom would be on par with using a freighter rather than a shuttle to fly to the back end of Syndicate.
Lastly, I don't think it makes sense for the bastion mod to not use fuel. Marauders already have a giant cargo bay that can accomodate a little fuel. Or hell, maybe even give them a small fuel bay to store the bastion fuel as well as the LO they will need for the cyno they will inevitably be wearing. Besides, there is an excessive supply of heavy water and almost no demand for it, so making it a fuel used by mission runners would go a long way to helping it become a profitable resource and indirectly influence the cost of other ice products (increased profitability -> more miners -> more market competition -> lower/more stable isotope prices).
The original bastion idea had benefits that matched or outweighed the drawbacks. The new bastion idea has drawbacks which greatly outweigh the benefits. If the changes on the table are implemented I will be seriously considering whether to sell my marauder and, according to CCP's ship progression, "downgrade" to a navy battleship to get a better tool for PvE. Something about that doesn't seem right...
My griping about changes without making suggestions is about as useless as the paladin's capacitor bonus (cap boosters: we use them), so if I was king for a day I would: - get rid of the web bonus in favor of some variation of a defense bonus (or if that's not an option at least change golem/vargur to web range for variety) - change the paladin's capacitor bonus to a damage application bonus (tracking or ROF) - swap the golem's TP bonus for a built-in explosion radius bonus (5% or so) and drop one mid for one low - apply T2 resists - give the bastion mod a mild damage application bonus (20% to tracking, 10% to explosion vel+rad) - make the bastion module use 25 heavy water per cycle |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
325
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:08:00 -
[2260] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote: I'm lucky to be not the one, who has to rebalance this class.
Never a truer word said. Which is odd really, since apparently hardly anyone flies a marauder. Why are we all so worked up over this? We should be out there killing each other in the new HACs and Command Ships!
BTW: me and a corp-mate bagged 2 tengus in a wormhole tonight - with a damnation and a hyperion. First blood for the new damnation \o/ - it worked well.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|
|

Juno Libertas
Pawnstars INC
379
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:13:00 -
[2261] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Juno Libertas wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:So the only real thing which made them useful (the rep amount bonuses) is being replaced with something which only works if you're sat 10km away from the target in the first place (and by extension, scrammed).
Sorry but that's just dumb. These are not mobile ships. Jumping 100km away using MJD does nothing to close 40km on another ship, be it PVE or PVP. Have to agree here. Marauders just got f**** over in this update. So why would anyone want to use a Bastion Modules? - No Resist Bonuses - No Rep Armor Bonuses (Easier to kill) - No more Remote Rep - No Mass Penalty (Open to Bumpage that you cant avoid) So is CCP telling me that the only bonuses to using a bastion module is that you get better range/falloff along with ewar immunity. ******* awful. At least let them keep their rep bonuses... Local armor rep is still bonused in bastion. This effectively makes bastion like having the marauder you are used to tank wise and more, only crippled.
Just caught that and deleted my post but IMHO Mass penalty should still be back and just disabled on jumping gates/wormholes.
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1495
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:14:00 -
[2262] - Quote
If you want to remove the rep bonus from the hull leave the resist bonus from the bastion module.
If you want to remove the mass penalty from the bastion module, leave us with mobility just no warp drive.
I personally preferred the lower omni-resistances with a higher rep amount so that I could go wherever the stars lead me and not worry about what rats I will encounter and if my tank will be ok for them.
The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

DeadRow
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
128
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:14:00 -
[2263] - Quote
Well, thanks for the useless bonus I guess.
Bastion gives you Optimal and Falloff bonus which makes you think LR weapons, yet now you want us to stay within 10km. Golem getting a TP and web bonus sounds doubly aweful too.
*sigh* Still a few months yet, hopefully they'll get unborked. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:16:00 -
[2264] - Quote
Forum warriors, go to bed! If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Jedediah Arndtz
Warner Bros.
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:24:00 -
[2265] - Quote
So the bastion still gives a range bonus, and all the marauders get a velocity bonus to webs (that are by nature short-range), that probably won't get used outside of the Kronos. The Golem already has a paint bonus, does it *really* need a web bonus too? |

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
828
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:24:00 -
[2266] - Quote
I feel the double-whammy nerf to bastion tank performance is bad. Removing the active tanking bonus in exchange for a resist bonus is fine, but coupling that with the removal of the Bastion resist bonus is a bit much. Between these two changes the latest change to the idea you announced is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 40% decrease in Bastioned tanking power, as well as an overall reduction in active tank even out of Bastion. The web bonus is quite nice but these changes together are not something I'm a fan of. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |

Capqu
Love Squad
227
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:24:00 -
[2267] - Quote
slapping a 7.5% / level web velocity bonus on each of these because of a bunch of crybabies on the forum seems pretty lazy http://pizza.eve-kill.net |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
325
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:29:00 -
[2268] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec.
Solve this and suddenly they'll sell like hot cakes...
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Sianca
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:29:00 -
[2269] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Please. it's still one ship class to balance with one application, which is designed for.
Here a a few group of people, who wants a perfect mission runner for Lvl4, the next group want a perfect ship for incursion, the next a perfect plex/anno runner and so on... and an other group wants to make these ship class a viable PVP ship.
Now, what stay this class for? One ship class can't be over the top in all disciplines!
I for myself enjoy Marauders how are they now, a little fixing here and there and it's ok.
But i like the idea of a "modus" the ship performs in an other way, what i dont't like is the sitting duck idea. I think we shouldn't get lost in details. Lets them do there Job, they done mostly good rebalancing, trsust them, let us test then und then we can constructive criticism them.
I'm lucky to be not the one, who has to rebalance this class.
100% my thoughts, calm down - the whole thread looks to me like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjVWXJfhh0M&feature=related
|

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1374
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:35:00 -
[2270] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec. 'immune to cynos' might be difficult to implement :P |
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
440
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:36:00 -
[2271] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:I feel the double-whammy nerf to bastion tank performance is bad. Removing the active tanking bonus in exchange for a resist bonus is fine, but coupling that with the removal of the Bastion resist bonus is a bit much. Between these two changes the latest change to the idea you announced is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 40% decrease in Bastioned tanking power, as well as an overall reduction in active tank even out of Bastion. The web bonus is quite nice but these changes together are not something I'm a fan of.
This was posted earlier:
Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s[/quote]
Jedediah Arndtz wrote:So the bastion still gives a range bonus, and all the marauders get a velocity bonus to webs (that are by nature short-range), that probably won't get used outside of the Kronos. The Golem already has a paint bonus, does it *really* need a web bonus too?
I don't remember where I saw the thread a few months ago but I was trying to determine the perfect rapier fit considering it has both a web bonus and a target painter bonus. I want to say the web was as effective as 2 target painters considering applied dps. Don't be naive to think torps won't hit a target because it isn't painted. Slap a 82% web on something and your results may be the same if not better.
Maybe everyone will need to change up their npc target calling since the web will allow you to blap any npc within 1k. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
298
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:38:00 -
[2272] - Quote
This made me smile, +1 
Maybe it would help if CCP told us what role htey are trying to fill? Be it kiting or brawling, since the MJD bonus and Bastion Mode seem to be opposing roles. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:42:00 -
[2273] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
OMG no. Tech 2 resist on BS is a horrible idea. They need to be relatively weak when out of Bastion, and stronger/more self reliant using the module. This game needs fewer ships with logistic friendly resistances, and more ship classes with roles. This is exactly what you did for the ship before caving to the masses of stupidity. |

Darkwolf
Glyph Scientific
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:43:00 -
[2274] - Quote
Very disappointed with this second iteration. Let's compare ship bonuses live on TQ with the ship bonuses being proposed, and examine the differences. Of not, you're NOT really exchanging the local rep bonus for a web bonus, because of other changes that got made.
OLD
PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 5% energy damage GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% shield rep, 10% target painter KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 7.5% hybrid tracking VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% shield boost, 7.5% projectile tracking
NEW
PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% energy optimal, 5% energy damage GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% web velocity, 10% target painter KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 7.5% web velocity, 10% hybrid falloff, 7.5% hybrid tracking VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% projectile tracking
CHANGES
PALADIN: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% energy optimal GOLEM: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity KRONOS: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% hybrid falloff VARGUR: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity
So, the two ships (Paladin/Kronos) that already had web bonuses get their bonus nerfed, and get their local tank bonus converted to a range bonus of some type. The two ships that did not have a web bonus lose their rep bonus and get a web bonus.
Now, here's where things get ludicrous. The two ships that lost their rep bonus and gained a web bonus they didn't have before are the ones that have the greatest need of mid slots - the Golem and Vargur (both shield tanks). The two ships that had their web velocity nerfed gained damage range in the types that are most useful for them.
The Golem in particular is disappointing. We now have a propulsion system which moves in units of 100km (MJD), a tractor beam bonus which works out to 40km, a web bonus which works out to 12km, and a weapon system which is either 35-40km or lock range. There is a severe lack of focus going on here.
And as for T2 resists... The Golem/Kronos have it easy in that regard because they get tank bonuses that are best versus their racial type (kinetic/thermal). Course, you're screwed if you fight EM/THE rats in your shield-tanking Golem with no resist bonuses.... The Paladin on the other hand receives NO resist bonuses fighting their racial type (EM/THE) since it will get T2 resists in KIN/EXP. Admittedly, those are typically the two weakest types for armor, but again the extreme focus of T2 resists tends to skew those ship's effectiveness in PVE.
To be honest, I preferred the changes a lot more when we were just talking Bastion module, and not talking about wrecking all the bonuses on all the hulls too.
These things are already inferior to T1 pirate hulls, is it really necessary to make them even worse? |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:44:00 -
[2275] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Repeat after me: mini-dreads are a dumb idea.
I've been saying this for what feels like months and now when presented with the opportunity to get a mini dread people are saying that it's a bad idea. like what I've been saying all along...
wake up and smell the roses people.. So don't fly it. Fly a pirate battleship. Sell your Marauder and get on with your life.
I don't fly marauders ---- I CAN fly them, but I don't because they're mediocre and the changes listed here is set to make them worse. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:47:00 -
[2276] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:Very disappointed with this second iteration. Let's compare ship bonuses live on TQ with the ship bonuses being proposed, and examine the differences. Of not, you're NOT really exchanging the local rep bonus for a web bonus, because of other changes that got made.
OLD
PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 5% energy damage GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% shield rep, 10% target painter KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 7.5% hybrid tracking VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% shield boost, 7.5% projectile tracking
NEW
PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% energy optimal, 5% energy damage GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% web velocity, 10% target painter KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 7.5% web velocity, 10% hybrid falloff, 7.5% hybrid tracking VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% projectile tracking
CHANGES
PALADIN: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% energy optimal GOLEM: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity KRONOS: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% hybrid falloff VARGUR: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity
So, the two ships (Paladin/Kronos) that already had web bonuses get their bonus nerfed, and get their local tank bonus converted to a range bonus of some type. The two ships that did not have a web bonus lose their rep bonus and get a web bonus.
Now, here's where things get ludicrous. The two ships that lost their rep bonus and gained a web bonus they didn't have before are the ones that have the greatest need of mid slots - the Golem and Vargur (both shield tanks). The two ships that had their web velocity nerfed gained damage range in the types that are most useful for them.
The Golem in particular is disappointing. We now have a propulsion system which moves in units of 100km (MJD), a tractor beam bonus which works out to 40km, a web bonus which works out to 12km, and a weapon system which is either 35-40km or lock range. There is a severe lack of focus going on here.
And as for T2 resists... The Golem/Kronos have it easy in that regard because they get tank bonuses that are best versus their racial type (kinetic/thermal). Course, you're screwed if you fight EM/THE rats in your shield-tanking Golem with no resist bonuses.... The Paladin on the other hand receives NO resist bonuses fighting their racial type (EM/THE) since it will get T2 resists in KIN/EXP. Admittedly, those are typically the two weakest types for armor, but again the extreme focus of T2 resists tends to skew those ship's effectiveness in PVE.
To be honest, I preferred the changes a lot more when we were just talking Bastion module, and not talking about wrecking all the bonuses on all the hulls too.
These things are already inferior to T1 pirate hulls, is it really necessary to make them even worse?
furthermore, you removed choice for why to use bastion mode an why not to use it...
The only thing that needed fixing before was the spool up time on MJD's and the imbalance between shield and armor repairers.... beyond those 2 things, the 1st iteration was pretty unique and cool... this new idea is just a joke. |

Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
171
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:47:00 -
[2277] - Quote
I was so exited about the initial batch of changes... the update kind of put a damper on that :S |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:50:00 -
[2278] - Quote
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:51:00 -
[2279] - Quote
That's it, I'm going back to my Tengu (until they **** it up too). Seriously, this is beyond full r e t a r d at this point. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dolph Carebear
Adohivatal
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:51:00 -
[2280] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote: Maybe it would help if CCP told us what role htey are trying to fill? Be it kiting or brawling, since the MJD bonus and Bastion Mode seem to be opposing roles.
I think that's the crux of the issue.
It certainly appears to me that they're changing things for change's sake.
1. "We should do something about Marauders."
2. "This is something."
3. "Therefore we should do it."
Maybe let someone with a vision near the drawing board?
My $0.02 is that Bastion kind of sounds cool as a basic idea, but PVE definitely doesn't need more tank, and no RR means no PVP applicability. Now if it worked like siege on dreads, that'd be different... But that's just my own agenda. (At least I have one.) |
|

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:55:00 -
[2281] - Quote
in 5 min i got sketch of what marauders must be. keepin' racial differences and philosophy. no useless bonuses, every 1 is good for both PvE and PvP (well maybe exept pally cap)
paladin bs 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level (i think adding tracking here will be op) 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range per level m 4% bonus to all armour resistances per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
golem bs 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level m 4% bonus to all shield resistances 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level(or maybe just 5% raw damage)
kronos bs 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage per level 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level m 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level 7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems per level
varg bs 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level m 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level
just balance that mini triage ffs Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
702
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:56:00 -
[2282] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned. |

Doctor Tobias Funke
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:58:00 -
[2283] - Quote
What next? Ships getting bonuses to rail/beam/arty/hml range and smartbomb cap use? Undisruptable, ewar immune, high mobility, long range battleships would be the kings of PVE while still being interesting for PVP without doubling up on the roles of webbing pirate battleships. These new changes make absolutely no sense. |
|

ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
93

|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:01:00 -
[2284] - Quote
Greetings
This is an awesome discussion, lets keep it going with on topic posts and constructive feedback.
On On ISD Flidais Asagiri Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

Shade Millith
Bite Me inc Bitten.
90
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:04:00 -
[2285] - Quote
Dolph Carebear wrote:My $0.02 is that Bastion kind of sounds cool as a basic idea, but PVE definitely doesn't need more tank, and no RR means no PVP applicability. Now if it worked like siege on dreads, that'd be different... But that's just my own agenda. (At least I have one.)
The extra tank was what had gotten me so exited.
Rather than using a 1 low slot/4 midslot tank on a golem, I'd be able to use a 2 midslot tank for the same effect. Putting more Target Painters and Damage Mod.
Now it's losing the resists. And it's original tank boost bonus for a web? I think I might just stick with the Rattlesnake.
I agree that there needs to be a serious thought about what the heck this ship is supposed to do. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:07:00 -
[2286] - Quote
ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:Greetings
This is an awesome discussion, lets keep it going with on topic posts and constructive feedback.
On On
lol there are 2.2k post of feedback from people who want good ships , not some freaky abdominations Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn my version of what marauders should be
|

Darkwolf
Glyph Scientific
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:07:00 -
[2287] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.
Yes, I am serious. I'm quite aware that you can shore up missing resistances with modules, and I'm also quite able to complete level 4's with whatever I wish when I care to. Your personal attacks are unwarranted.
The issue here is that T2 resists are being pushed as being better than 30% overall with the original Bastion module. They're not. Just adding together all the bonuses and calling it better is disingenuous and ignores the fact that certain hulls perform much better against their racial rat type than others when T2 resists are put into the equation.
|

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
72
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:10:00 -
[2288] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.
You have got to be joking.
Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.
You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you.
[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Drone Damage Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Republic Fleet Target Painter Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Ionic Field Projector I
Vespa II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605 Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005
Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range 80k EHP top speed of 460m/s + MJD
The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes
Golem (odyssey 1.1)
[Golem, Golem solo stuff]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Large Micro Jump Drive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner EM Ward Field II Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Low-grade Crystal Alpha Low-grade Crystal Beta Low-grade Crystal Gamma Low-grade Crystal Delta Low-grade Crystal Epsilon Low-grade Crystal Omega Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005
As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle
vitals are 1100 dps Top speed 360 + MJD tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life.
If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
252
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:13:00 -
[2289] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned. You have got to be joking. Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling. You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you. [Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Drone Damage Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Republic Fleet Target Painter Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Ionic Field Projector I Vespa II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605 Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005 Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range 80k EHP top speed of 460m/s + MJD The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes Golem (odyssey 1.1) [Golem, Golem solo stuff] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Large Micro Jump Drive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner EM Ward Field II Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Low-grade Crystal Alpha Low-grade Crystal Beta Low-grade Crystal Gamma Low-grade Crystal Delta Low-grade Crystal Epsilon Low-grade Crystal Omega Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005 As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle vitals are 1100 dps Top speed 360 + MJD tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life. If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.
Now try level 5s. 2500 DPS EM/Therm and you're neuted dry permanently. Go. |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:14:00 -
[2290] - Quote
Why remove the local rep bonus from the marauders? You've compensated the loss of the 30% resists boost with t2 resists but thelsck of a rep bonus will still hurt a lot. Especially in ccomparison with pirate issue ships. Please find a decent clearcut role for each of these ships. If you want to make marauders the tanky bs, then leave the local rep boni and focus on pirate issues for more damage with less tank - the whole idea of rebalancing/tiericide was to rebalance and assign certain roles and tasks to ships. Please try to follow that through, not like the hac mess (where many of us fail to see what you wanted fo do with them). |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:20:00 -
[2291] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec. Solve this and suddenly they'll sell like hot cakes... +2 Warp strength. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
703
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:22:00 -
[2292] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned. You have got to be joking. Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling. You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you. [Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Drone Damage Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Republic Fleet Target Painter Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Ionic Field Projector I Vespa II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605 Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005 Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range 80k EHP top speed of 460m/s + MJD The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes Golem (odyssey 1.1) [Golem, Golem solo stuff] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Large Micro Jump Drive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner EM Ward Field II Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Low-grade Crystal Alpha Low-grade Crystal Beta Low-grade Crystal Gamma Low-grade Crystal Delta Low-grade Crystal Epsilon Low-grade Crystal Omega Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005 As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle vitals are 1100 dps Top speed 360 + MJD tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life. If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of. You are completely missing the point. It's not about needing more, it's that the same was achievable with less under the original proposal. Bastion+tank bonus made 2 slots viable. You're using 5+ low grade crystals. That's part of the point.
What we're also saying is that this makes 2 of the 4 marauders objectively worse for PvE against their primary factions and despite your insults you haven't even attempted proving otherwise. Yes, there is a limit to what tank you need, but that doesn't in any way justify making half the affected ships weaker in their PvE use. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:24:00 -
[2293] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned. Give this man a LIKE! |

Alim Omaristos
tax evasion1
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:25:00 -
[2294] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Well now I don't want one.
What's the point of reducing the tanking effectiveness in Bastion? If i'm sitting still I want to be as tanky as possible. Loosing the Armor repairer amount bonus on the paladin for a Web bonus? I wasn't going to fit a web to it either way, and i'll be hitting out of range for a web 90% of the time any way. I just don't see a need for a Web bonus, Frigates get to close, MJD away. If it's close enough for you to web you're probably already dead any way. Especially since the tanking bonuses are gone now. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:32:00 -
[2295] - Quote
Cade Windstalker
"Bastion is going to be divisive but overall it's a cool idea and fits with the class as its been in the past."
Bastion fits with nothing as it has to nerf the crap out of the 'host ship' in non-bastion mode, nothing has ever been like the bastion mod in the history of the game. And don't forget the MJD it's a magic combo we are are talking about here MJD+Bastion. This is a 100% NEW animal. And true dreads are "designed to lay siege to the largest of all structures in EVE" a feature the bastion is not supposed to be for.
So do it right and put this on its own hull and don't pretend it's a re-balance. |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:40:00 -
[2296] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium Please make a new thread. This one is already at 115 pages, and the first 100 or so pages are now partially invalidated by new changes proposed and there are a whole host of other problems people have. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:41:00 -
[2297] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote: Triage carriers, from my understanding, are only really used in POS repair situation, or by logi carriers in large fleet fights. And super caps going into 'triage' do it when they are un-harassed and are POS bowling. No one actively commits a triaged capital to a live combat situation without the express mindset that the ship in question - is going to go boom.
W-space escalations use triaged/sieged capitals in some doctrines.
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:47:00 -
[2298] - Quote
SO, lets sum this up:
Marauders gained T2 resists, while loosing the Rep-bonus.. Oke, both bonuses are roughly equal (active bonus is a little bit better), but the resists make them better with RR.
I think this is a gain.
Next point- the webs:
All marauders got webs now. Incredible for every turret marauder. You can zip arround with MJD, beef up the bastion, kill everything on approach with OMG-Range, and if things come close -- > web and destroy.
I think, this is a gain aswell --> except for the Golem. Turrets get their weak point tackled with webbing targets under their guns.
The Golem however has a lack of applying dps on fast targets over all ranges-- > while the web helps here below 12KM, it looses damage over all ranges, not just at 20km or below. I think the Golem deserves a range bonus on webs (30-35 KM maybe?) instead of the velocity modifer bonus because of this. Either this or a plain ExRad - bonus (but this would be just as booring as a CNR..).
If you are worried about the dps-application --> turrets get their falloff and optimal increased in bastion, which helps with applying dmg. Golem does not get this from bastion.
And after all, I think the concept is this:
A mobile plattform (MJD) combined with a beefy tank (100% rep-bonus), which has the tools to be a sniper (falloff/Optimal/range) or a brawler (in-your-face-tank + 80+% webs). I think this is a very interesting concept, as it will be a pain to stop this in small gangs, while still beeing viable in PvE.
As for large fleet fights and blobbing --> ofcourse marauders will be vulnerable to alpha, but most ships are anyway. And if you can't bring marauders into blob-fights.. who cares?
Just give the golem more range on webs, and we have a pretty solid rebalance.
thoughts?
Also:
This please:
Quote:CCP Ytterbium Please make a new thread. This one is already at 115 pages, and the first 100 or so pages are now partially invalidated by new changes proposed and there are a whole host of other problems people have. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:47:00 -
[2299] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Yes, the problem is that you're condemning two of the four to having to fit more mods against most rats, where as with T1 hulls it's much more even and entirely based on what resist type you're tanking on. If a Paladin wants to make use of its explosive resists it need to be fighting Rogue Drones (which pay poorly overall) or Angels where the two best damage types to deal are the ones it can't deal.
The Vargur is in a somewhat better place by being able to swap damage types fairly freely but still has to fit more mods against most rats than either the Gallente or Caldari do.
Of course, for w-space and PvP, where you want omni-tanks, the situation reverses itself, and the Paladin and Vargur have good resists, while the Kronos and Golem have bad ones with huge holes that have to be filled. Now, some might say that this is 'balance', but I don't think it's terribly balanced to be saying "PvP? Amarr or Minmater or GTFO" and "Ratting? Caldari or Gallente, forget the others". We get enough of that already, and given that there are only four marauders and so you have no choice of weapons except by moving races and that this means "lasers and guns are for PvP, missiles and hybrids are for PvE", this is bad design, IMO.
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:48:00 -
[2300] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....
Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game. So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned. You have got to be joking. Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling. You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you. [Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Drone Damage Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Republic Fleet Target Painter Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Ionic Field Projector I Vespa II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605 Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005 Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range 80k EHP top speed of 460m/s + MJD The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes Golem (odyssey 1.1) [Golem, Golem solo stuff] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Large Micro Jump Drive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner EM Ward Field II Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Low-grade Crystal Alpha Low-grade Crystal Beta Low-grade Crystal Gamma Low-grade Crystal Delta Low-grade Crystal Epsilon Low-grade Crystal Omega Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705 Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805 Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905 Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005 As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle vitals are 1100 dps Top speed 360 + MJD tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life. If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.
I'm sorry but both of these fits are absolutely terrible, esp the RNI one. damage application vs anything smaller than a BS is horrid. doesn't matter if you do 1100 dps if you can only apply half of it vs cruisers.
So before you start calling others terrible, get a clue yourself. |
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:49:00 -
[2301] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: BTW: me and a corp-mate bagged 2 tengus in a wormhole tonight - with a damnation and a hyperion. First blood for the new damnation \o/ - it worked well.
The Damnation is pretty shiny. We like the look of it for w-space fleets.
|

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:49:00 -
[2302] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:---- stuff If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of. Now try level 5s. 2500 DPS EM/Therm and you're neuted dry permanently. Go.
Or I could just not. Level 5's are stupid for a variety reasons that are well documented, the fact that lowsec is retardedly broken as one of the top reasons.
Quote:You are completely missing the point. It's not about needing more, it's that the same was achievable with less under the original proposal. Bastion+tank bonus made 2 slots viable. You're using 5+ low grade crystals. That's part of the point.
What we're also saying is that this makes 2 of the 4 marauders objectively worse for PvE against their primary factions and despite your insults you haven't even attempted proving otherwise. Yes, there is a limit to what tank you need, but that doesn't in any way justify making half the affected ships weaker in their PvE use.
No I'm not missing the point.
The point is: to gain an advantage you need to make a sacrifice. A one slot omni tanking module that is more powerful than t2 resists is stupid. That's why people hated the original design.
Lowgrade crystals, faction BCS, etc etc... yeah so what? It's a ship worth nearly a bil on its own. Without the LG's it tanks 390/160 which is still enough considering - and here's the kicker - that as you kill stuff the incoming dps decreases. The added bits to the fit aren't really that important, I used to run level 4's in a drake. If you need something that tanks as much dps as a dread to win at level 4's you have serious problems.
I *did* post a 2 slot tanking golem. If the basis of your complaint is that without bastion the marauders will now be worse than before well that's CCP's design failures not the actual modules fault huh.. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:51:00 -
[2303] - Quote
Changes are becoming more and more interesting.
It seems that short range web is not consistance with the idea of long range damage. But it might becomes a life savour for those zero velocity small dreads. To avioid situations when those ships being tackled in short range and die due to tracking problems
It seems that ccp is trying to push it into small fleet combat. The process would be warp to the field on distance, go into bastion, tank for 60 seconds. In the same time, using web and guns to finish ships with scrams. After that 60s, MJD away, fill your ASB or ARR if needed.
prefer 30% resist on the Bastion module though. With T2 resist there are some critical shortage. For example the 0 em on golem and 10 exp on Kronos. That makes them extremly good when dealing with some damage type but extremly bad when dealling with the others, even fitted with em or explotion hardener. That simply makes Paladin and Vagur better.
These changes might provide an interesting way of fighting. But considering the cost of those shiny ships... Not expecting them to be used in Pvp frequently. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:52:00 -
[2304] - Quote
Doed wrote: I'm sorry but both of these fits are absolutely terrible, esp the RNI one. damage application vs anything smaller than a BS is horrid. doesn't matter if you do 1100 dps if you can only apply half of it vs cruisers.
So before you start calling others terrible, get a clue yourself.
Hello,
2x fully bonused target painters with cruise missiles.
Come back tomorrow thanks. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:56:00 -
[2305] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Yes, the problem is that you're condemning two of the four to having to fit more mods against most rats, where as with T1 hulls it's much more even and entirely based on what resist type you're tanking on. If a Paladin wants to make use of its explosive resists it need to be fighting Rogue Drones (which pay poorly overall) or Angels where the two best damage types to deal are the ones it can't deal.
The Vargur is in a somewhat better place by being able to swap damage types fairly freely but still has to fit more mods against most rats than either the Gallente or Caldari do. I do not condemn. I have just given my interpretation of present state. From you comment of choosing damage I guess you're talking about running anoms, where Paladin seems to be indeed at disadvantage. During missions damage chooses you, so it's where Paladin has an advantage, and in incursions and wormholes you omni tank anyway, advantage again.
Also this "more even" T1 profile is because it's much weaker to begin with! I remind you that we're talking about 1 to 3 hardeners on T2 vs. obligatory 3 or even 4 on T1. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1496
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:56:00 -
[2306] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec. Solve this and suddenly they'll sell like hot cakes... +2 Warp strength. While I think that is a bit to generalized of a bonus it is the only one that will help the ships get to where they need to go. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
961
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:00:00 -
[2307] - Quote
Why in the world would I choose a Marauder with the newly revised bonuses/stats vs. a pirate or faction BS with significantly lower costs in terms of training and isk? For that matter now that the T1 BS have been buffed I don't see these updated Marauders being anywhere near worth the enormous premium for a bit more DPS, a semi-questionable tank, a bizarre web bonus and a now nerfed gimmick module.
The originally presented concept was innovative and fresh. It probably needed some refinement but, at least it was consistent and made sense. What's on the table now is just schizophrenic and makes Marauders less useful in either NPC or player combat scenarios.
When I trained all the requirements to be able to fly a Vargur I looked forward to a mission runner that would be a major upgrade over the Raven I'd been using or the CNR or Tengu I was considering. If Marauders go through in the currently proposed state there's no way in hell I'd consider a Marauder because they'd be horrible ships in terms of both usefulness and isk value.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. |

Sabriz Adoudel
Oppan Ganknam Style
749
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:01:00 -
[2308] - Quote
Looking forward to this 82.5% webbing. 90% is over the top, but 82.5% is fair while still effective. Miner euthanization expert. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
144
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:02:00 -
[2309] - Quote
Seriously, stop f***ing suggesting to remove the tractor bonuses. If anything, they need increased. Solo play, ie: not using a small army of alts, to do ****, the tractor bonuses are great in the marauders. They're more effective than flying back and grabbing a noctis then making your way back to the area. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
704
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:03:00 -
[2310] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:---- stuff If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of. Now try level 5s. 2500 DPS EM/Therm and you're neuted dry permanently. Go. Or I could just not. Level 5's are stupid for a variety reasons that are well documented, the fact that lowsec is retardedly broken as one of the top reasons. Quote:You are completely missing the point. It's not about needing more, it's that the same was achievable with less under the original proposal. Bastion+tank bonus made 2 slots viable. You're using 5+ low grade crystals. That's part of the point.
What we're also saying is that this makes 2 of the 4 marauders objectively worse for PvE against their primary factions and despite your insults you haven't even attempted proving otherwise. Yes, there is a limit to what tank you need, but that doesn't in any way justify making half the affected ships weaker in their PvE use. No I'm not missing the point. The point is: to gain an advantage you need to make a sacrifice. A one slot omni tanking module that is more powerful than t2 resists is stupid. That's why people hated the original design. Lowgrade crystals, faction BCS, etc etc... yeah so what? It's a ship worth nearly a bil on its own. Without the LG's it tanks 390/160 which is still enough considering - and here's the kicker - that as you kill stuff the incoming dps decreases. The added bits to the fit aren't really that important, I used to run level 4's in a drake. If you need something that tanks as much dps as a dread to win at level 4's you have serious problems. I *did* post a 2 slot tanking golem. If the basis of your complaint is that without bastion the marauders will now be worse than before well that's CCP's design failures not the actual modules fault huh..
|
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:03:00 -
[2311] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Doed wrote: I'm sorry but both of these fits are absolutely terrible, esp the RNI one. damage application vs anything smaller than a BS is horrid. doesn't matter if you do 1100 dps if you can only apply half of it vs cruisers.
So before you start calling others terrible, get a clue yourself.
Hello, 2x fully bonused target painters with cruise missiles. Come back tomorrow thanks.
You need 3 to 2 volley decent bounty elite cruisers. and your RNI which I pointed out as the worst has one. one unbonused TP. |

NextDarkKnight
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:04:00 -
[2312] - Quote
Will we get a separate drone bay for Salvage drones? Seriously, Is it possible to only nerf drones while the new module is fitted? |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:08:00 -
[2313] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Cade Windstalker
So do it right and put this on its own hull and don't pretend it's a re-balance.
I second this.
A Redesign is not a Reballance.
For all you guys TLDR -
Basically, CCP is wanting to completely redesign and change Muraders into something completely different that what they currently are.
The player base is forming two camps -
1) "OMG This idea is awesome, but is impossible to sort out the details" - Most players who don't use Muraders in the first place. 2) "Seriously? This has bad written all over it. Please Reballance the ship before you re-design it" - Most of these are players who have / do use muraders.
Problem CCP sees with Muraders: They are under utilized Their solution to this is to give new "Wonky" "Sexy" roles to the ship and dismantle it in its current iteration.
**********************
A) They want to see more sniping long range combat, so they make these billion isk hulls MJD.
Problems with A : Semi-Spamable MJD use will re-create a semi "Pre-Nano" nerf style of combat, everyone plays chicken, everyone is frustrated. An existing FAR cheaper kiting ship already exists that put out the EXACT same damage and fills the EXACT same role, just without a MJD - Tier 3 Battle Cruisers. T3BC have 8 guns, range bonuses, and no rep bonuses. With a MWD they can dictate range very well and execute sniping - and are INCREADIBLY cheap in comparison to a Murader.
Summary: MJD'ing Muraders will be overshadowed by groups of Tier 3 battle cruisers by cost and effectiveness alone. Muraders will not be used in this fasion.
******************
B) They want to create an ultimate brawler so they will add a Siege / Triage Mode for a Murader.
Problem with B: Siege / Triage Modes are very situationally dependent. Because the Murader will have no Logistical bonuses or capabilities it is impossible to use as "Fortress" medic. Triage Carriers are used very seldomly in actual combat situations, and then only when they need to do POS repping, quickly and quietly, away from main combat.
Siege modules are used to SIEGE enemy posses. Again, this is rarely used in a practical combat situation, and more often then not, only utilized when there is no opposing fleet in the system to quickly remove Soverignty structures and pos's. The rule of thumb I have allways been told is that if you Siege It (Or Triage it) - You will loose it, so don't and just GTFO.
Considering the cost of Murader is easily over 1 billion (sometimes as high as 2-3 billion), why would I want to use one of these, with only battleship sized weapons, when for the same price, I can purchase a small Carrier, that can operate in low sec and accomplish the same thing, only better + fighters and situation specific drones? I get a jump drive, lots of cargo room... About the same training time.
Going into Triage mode will also immobilize the Murader. If they are long range fit, they will be dog piled. If they are short range fit, they will only kill what they have double webbed and scramed. A short range 9km web will not allow an immobile ship to become a "King" brawler.
Summary: The price of a Murader being equal to a small carrier - carriers do the triage mode the same only far better, for easier skill requirements and equivalent price. Is still usable in Null sec and Low sec (Opportunities for small gang combat are extremely limited in high sec now).
*****************
To re-balance the muraders in it's current iteration is simple:
Keep the Rep Bonus or move to T2 hull resistances, or something according to the "Flavor" CCP wants.
For a PVE re-balance - Change the Web Bonus to something else. Like additional tracking, or optimal fall off.
Give More fitting grid / cpu to the muraders that need it (Paladin / Vargur). [BIG POINT HERE]
Leave the drone bays alone. In PVE we are loosing our drones more frequently and on a semi consistant basis. Lower the bandwith yes, not the bay size. We need those to handle frigates or cruisers (Even with webs its hard to hit a frig).
*****************
To Re-Balance the Muraders so they are actually used in PVP:
Simply give them T2 Sensor Strength (over 20). THIS IS THE PRIMARY REASON MURADERS ARE NOT USED.
This one little change will allow you to see Muraders deployed to Null Sec, Low Sec, and WH space with a great deal of frequency. They will still be on par / slightly less than Navy Faction Variants, but truly be ultimate brawlers at that point.
If you are worried about ultra tanking, cut the cargo bay size significantly to limit the number of cap boosters available.
********************
If the goal is to see Muraders Deployed in active PVP, then simply unleash it in its current iteration. THEN Rebalance it from there.
CCP - You are trying to do too much.
Move the Triage / MJD shinanigans to a "Cloned" hull, but let the current muraders off the chain. They will mesh and jive with current meta levels and meta game and will not be nearly as 'out of whack' as you are implying they are.
Re-Balance before Re-Design! -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Dolph Carebear
Adohivatal
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:10:00 -
[2314] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:Seriously, stop f***ing suggesting to remove the tractor bonuses. If anything, they need increased. Solo play, ie: not using a small army of alts, to do ****, the tractor bonuses are great in the marauders. They're more effective than flying back and grabbing a noctis then making your way back to the area.
OTOH tractor beams on a battleship? Puh-lease. What next, salvagers on supercarriers? |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
221
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:15:00 -
[2315] - Quote
With that resistanceshift over to the normal states, they really seem to be a great choice to fight RR-vexor/ishtar flights, as leaving out the for pvp not obligatory bastion lets you carry 4 large smartbombs and SR guns. Combine that with cruisersized beams and you don't have to primarily worry about ships carrying ecm of sort on field to affect you.
The Bastionmodule, with not much but the range speaking for itself, has lost most appeal for any pvp situation. The Damage is totally fine, the range and tracking makes totally up for that. While you can still move. Just that little bit more of range won't encourage anyone to craft a pvp-scenario around that, so please stuff that void with the accidental tracking bonus the first version accidentaly had, this time also applying to the explosion velocity of torps/cruises :>
As you can solve your eccm issues mostly by fitting for it (sacrificing mids, all strongly favoring the armortankers for pvp) - I doubt the use of a low sensor strength as a pvp-hurdle to limit their strength. If there would be such a feared overlap, should rather consider to equalize the base hp of the respective layers down to achieve similiar EHP to pre-resistbuff EHP of an unfitted hull. Releasing any kind of battleship with full t2 resist can easily go the wrong way (see buffersub t3s, which have full t2 resist aswell), so by strongly limiting the basetank and requiring multiple fitting slots to be devoted to plates/LSEs (possible XL-Shield extenders? *cough*) to push it to values that it can withstand the chosen confrontation.
Else, those things together with logi and smartbombs (like using a fleet of Kronoses with Oneiros support, carrying 4 large kinetic smartbombs each, MJD'ing around like crazy <.<)
I'm pretty sure a lot of people will verify some strats capitalizing on the marauders outstanding attributes, looking forward to see what it will take to dunk those :>
Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:18:00 -
[2316] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:Seriously, stop f***ing suggesting to remove the tractor bonuses. If anything, they need increased. Solo play, ie: not using a small army of alts, to do ****, the tractor bonuses are great in the marauders. They're more effective than flying back and grabbing a noctis then making your way back to the area.
Not to mention if we are blitzing - grabbing mission specifics.
And with the tractor range bonuses we can cherry pick battleship hulls as we shoot, not loosing any time to goin a little bit more in additional salvage in loot without increasing the time it takes to blitz a mission. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
256
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:28:00 -
[2317] - Quote
You can tell whether someone's a PvEer or PvPer by whether they prick up their ears at the phrase "web bonus". |

Merciful Deletion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:29:00 -
[2318] - Quote
Quote:In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying)
Capital Tractor Beam II Note: this tractor beam can only be fitted on the Rorqual ORE Capital Ship
It would be nice to get Marauder Class Tractor beams or bonuses to them in Bastion, mine as well doing something productive if we can't move and have nothing left to kill.
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
704
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:36:00 -
[2319] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Yes, the problem is that you're condemning two of the four to having to fit more mods against most rats, where as with T1 hulls it's much more even and entirely based on what resist type you're tanking on. If a Paladin wants to make use of its explosive resists it need to be fighting Rogue Drones (which pay poorly overall) or Angels where the two best damage types to deal are the ones it can't deal.
The Vargur is in a somewhat better place by being able to swap damage types fairly freely but still has to fit more mods against most rats than either the Gallente or Caldari do. I do not condemn. I have just given my interpretation of present state. From you comment of choosing damage I guess you're talking about running anoms, where Paladin seems to be indeed at disadvantage. During missions damage chooses you, so it's where Paladin has an advantage, and in incursions and wormholes you omni tank anyway, advantage again. Also this "more even" T1 profile is because it's much weaker to begin with! I remind you that we're talking about 1 to 3 hardeners on T2 vs. obligatory 3 or even 4 on T1. Most EM weak rats also deal EM, which means that your damage comes pared with your tank in missions as well as anoms. On the Paladin those are opposed. You have no "choice." You are either not hitting the targets weakness or reenforcing your own. |

Just Lilly
119
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:43:00 -
[2320] - Quote
First draft looked somewhat ok
But there is no way to tell, until they end up on sisi and we can try the numbers out for ourselves Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |
|

Enduros
Ostian Industries Hand of Despair
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:50:00 -
[2321] - Quote
Web bonus and T2 resists are looking good. Now you don't need to use the bastion thing to make use of the ship.
I would still like a mini-siege mod. Another version of the bastion perhaps? More dps at the loss of projection. Even more sexy would be if they weren't mutually exclusive. And maybe something to counter the 20sec align times, +2 WCS has been mentioned.
In null Pve a sentry-carrier still out-performs marauders as they are now, they have more projection and more dps. And funny enough with the bastion and align times you actually more safe in a carrier as it can run away better. I find this a little comical.
For Pvp the 60sec siege is questionable. Bastion also needs a damage variant, with reduced application as it's been mentioned. That way you really can use it as a mini-dread and 60sec is a reasonable time to commit. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1217
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:51:00 -
[2322] - Quote
Others have said it. I will reiterate.
CCP, give the Marauder better scan res than it has today, and maybe T2 resists. Don't touch the web bonuses. Don't touch the drone bay. Don't touch any other stat on the ship in fact.
You want a transformer class ship with all these fancy gizmos, (or at least some subset of them), the create another class of ship, or spin off a subclass of the Black Ops BS. I imagine you can create some scary ships if the BLOP's had extended range on their weapons and/or a shorter MjD spool-up. As for the Bastion mode, I don't know if anyone can find a use for it, on any ship, at least in its current form. Now, if you made the cycle time 30 seconds, maybe you could get some null sec BLOPS guys interested, as long as they can hit and run.
But on the Marauder, anything that locks the ship in place for at least 60 seconds, and gimps the DPS (yeah, hammering the drone bay and webbers does gimp the DPS) will not fly.
Marauder pilots don't want he world. Hell, the thing tanks well enough as it is. T2 resists are nice, but not a deal-breaker. Just give us better lock times, and leave the ship alone. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Suzuma
Makiriemi Industries
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:52:00 -
[2323] - Quote
Firstly, I assume the Art department is too busy/lazy to make four more T2 battleship hulls. Secondly, would it not have been better to rebalance Marauders and Pirate BS together? Anyway...
Good:
1) Large guns/missiles as primary weapons Sorry to everyone who considers drones to be a primary weapon but they are not (yet).
2) Four utility highs Nos, neuts, smartbombs, salvagers, tractor beams, offline heat sinks, Bastion, whatever you like/need
3) Bastion Boosting primary weapon projection since damage numbers were never a problem
4) Maximum of 25mbit drone bandwidth You don't need more than this to kill tacklers. Drone bays: Amarr/Gallente 75m3, Caldari/Minmatar 50m3
5) T2 resists Noticeable Improvement over T1 battleships, tradeoff vs higher hitpoints on navy battleships, no brainer
6) 90% webs Until the game's broken tracking formula is fixed, 90% webs are a required mechanic
7) MJD Bonus synergy with primary weapons Innovative and interesting, has the potential to shake up combat in all game environments
Bad 1) Rep bonus Repair bonuses should only come from entering Bastion mode, the combination of a repair bonus and an additional one in Bastion is bad design
2) Low Sensor Strength This was and is a poorly thought out weakness which is no longer necessary in today's metagame. The removal of tanking bonuses until you enter Bastion should be the new weakness. Outside of Bastion, they are improved versions of T1 battleships (as they should be). While in Bastion, they gain immunity to EW but are still highly vulnerable to neuts. Combine this with immobility for 60 seconds at a time and they are strong yet not overpowered.
3) Tractor beam bonus Obsoleted in part by Noctis but not too much of a problem as it is a role bonus
Tweaks/Concerns
1) Vargur/Golem will seriously out-tank the others while in Bastion until ASBs are limited to 1 module per hull. Or make Bastion not affect ASBs/AARs so people can make use of the recent buffs to regular active tanking modules... |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:58:00 -
[2324] - Quote
Optimo Sebiestor"Dear CCP, Please just buff the current marauders so that they are in line with the pirate faction battleships. The whole consept of mini dreads sounds to me as a new tier 2 marauder. I may even be so bold and ask if it can be based on the tier 3 battleship design. Alot of people love their marauders the way they are. I fear changing it to a mini dread, alters it too much from its current use. Forcing people to go for the pirate faction battleships, leaves alot of grumpy people considering the amount of specialisation that goes into training for this type of ship. This doesnt really feel like balancing, it feels more like a new game feature, and I think it should be treated as such. Personally I will train for one, because it just sounds awsome. But it doesnt feel so awsome it should come at the expense of an already good ship class."
Maaloc"So, as a result of you haphazard rebalances we now have the situation when fractional battleships are almost the same in pve as the marauders. In my opinion, you should reward players for the time they've spent learning the neccesary skills and getting isk to by these rather expensive skills...but instead you are proposing this Shocked You must have probably forgoten, but there's not only high-secs. This ****** rebalance of yours is a nice kick in the balls for those who use marauders in low- and null-secs and in wh-space: using this bastion module is kinda dangerous since one minute is more than enough to probe such a big ship and light up a cyno on your mission site. And without this module we get slightly castrated versions of the ships we already have.And MJD. All marauders are tanked as hell. Why the hell would they need to use MJD in PvE? It's simply redundant. And I seriously doubt they will find any use in PvP when a middle-sized gang of cheap nagas/tengues/etc can easily **** your maradeurs just with a couple of curses (the ships I mean) even if the maradeurs are in siege-mode."
Galdrak"could i suggest that like the command ships damnation and absolution you make a second marauder based on your changes and leave my first gen paladin as it is. copy and repeat for all the other racesStick it on SISI and let the unwashed masses try it out. 1st gen against 2nd gen. cant be that hard to strap another hamster to the wheel.stop re balancing and start evolving, let the races make improvements they would naturally make in ten years of research during times of war. "
My Idea of Rebalanced Paladin (in here means new) Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:5% bonus to capacitor capacity and 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level Marauder Skill Bonus:7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems and 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level Role Bonus:100% bonus to large energy weapon damage (T2 Raical Armor Armor Resistances EM50 THR35 KIN53 EXP70 Astarte and EOS have T2 Resists and Repper Bonus) org RM50 THR35 KIN34 EXP40 ARMOR 8,200HP SHIELD 6,800HP STRUCTURE 7,300HP Max Velocity 105 m/s RADAR sensor strength (22 points) org 10 Drone Capacity 75 m-¦, Drone Bandwith 75 Mbit/sec or more (or more) (8th high slot total of 4 utility highs) (Role Bonus:500% bonus to tractor beam range and 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity or Marauder Skill Bonus:5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level.)
Micro Jump/Bastion laserboat on Abbadon hull Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:5% bonus to capacitor capacity, 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range MJ/Bastion Skill Bonus:7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems,5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 12 Radar Signature radius: 420(-80)
Or the "new" Micro Jump/Bastion laserboat stats: Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level) MJ/Bastion Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400) Shield resists: 0% EM / 87.5% EX / 70% KIN / 20% THERM Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 12 Radar Signature radius: 420(-80)
ps. sry I don't know the other Marauders well enough to have a Rebalanced version here |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:00:00 -
[2325] - Quote
my request to the devs:
Please with the next iteration (or this one, if you believe it is sufficient) explicitly state what scenarios marauders are supposed to excel in, and why it would be better to use a marauder in that situation rather than say, a pirate ship.
I think the biggest problem is that people are not sure what place marauders are supposed be, and why their high isk and sp cost is warranted.
Thanks for the update on new stats and the very informational post on the earlier version showing how it would perform in missions, but the issue is not what it "can" do, or even what it excels in, but rather, what it is (best at) Better at than any other ship. So we dont need exact numbers or exactly How it will function, just assurance that it is supposed to be better at scenario X than other ships, and that it will be balanced accordingly. Many thanks in advance.
Re-post for ultimate justice! |

Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
227
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:01:00 -
[2326] - Quote
This ship redesign is poor.
CCP you are trying to shoehorn too many clowns into the tiny car on this one.
If you want to see more Marauders getting used in PvP, make the hulls cheaper. 800 million just in raw materials plus a convoluted invention process does not inspire one to PvP in a hull that costs one billion isk. Unless you're rich or foolish.
Marauders are a carebear boat. Leave them that way. If you want to make a weird MJD Gobot sniper ship based on a battleship hull, start from the beginning and dedicate a hull to it. Nerf on-grid combat scanning so sniping out past 149km is viable as a tactic, while you're at it.
|

DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:04:00 -
[2327] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
So TLDR the Incursion Bears whine and thus a change, Thanks for the blue ballz CCP Oh seven |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:16:00 -
[2328] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Most EM weak rats also deal EM, which means that your damage comes pared with your tank in missions as well as anoms. On the Paladin those are opposed. You have no "choice." You are either not hitting the targets weakness or reenforcing your own. Yeah, I got it. Paladin is at disadvantage here. But the point I was making is that this ship's Amarrian resists make it omni tanker, which in general is an asset, not liability. You don't get boost against EM but this resist is already the highest on T1 and the rest is just bonus. Mostly unused bonus but still bonus. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
129
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:20:00 -
[2329] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Most EM weak rats also deal EM, which means that your damage comes pared with your tank in missions as well as anoms. On the Paladin those are opposed. You have no "choice." You are either not hitting the targets weakness or reenforcing your own. Yeah, I got it. Paladin is at disadvantage here. But the point I was making is that this ship's Amarrian resists make it omni tanker, which in general is an asset, not liability. You don't get boost against EM but this resist is already the highest on T1 and the rest is just bonus. Mostly unused bonus but still bonus. "In general" in this instance does not apply to "missions." Which are, you know, what the ship is supposed to be better at than anything else. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1218
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:32:00 -
[2330] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: "In general" in this instance does not apply to "missions." Which are, you know, what the ship is supposed to be better at than anything else.
Maybe these guys know something more than we do about the future of missions in the game, and the one thing that these ships excel at (OK, armour Marauders do pretty well in Incursions), won't be in its current form after the winter iteration.
Remember the background of the dev's, read their comments about PvE over the past couple years, especially high sec, and then guess what might be "rebalanced". Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
705
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:43:00 -
[2331] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote: "In general" in this instance does not apply to "missions." Which are, you know, what the ship is supposed to be better at than anything else.
Maybe these guys know something more than we do about the future of missions in the game, and the one thing that these ships excel at (OK, armour Marauders do pretty well in Incursions), won't be in its current form after the winter iteration. Remember the background of the dev's, read their comments about PvE over the past couple years, especially high sec, and then guess what might be "rebalanced". If that plays out sure, but really the most iteration we've seen is on the side of balancing income and reducing AFK potential, which again is just balancing income. Though, even if this does play out, will marauders as envisioned in the current iteration stand out enough to draw people to them over their competition?
They're on par at best with other non-vanilla BS's on damage and as proposed lacking in all else outside of bastion. So really, considering the stated desires for PvE, unless "more like PvP" means "devoid of movement and everything eagerly wanders into web range" I have to wonder? |

Teegra Frost
Engineering Evolutions Limited Gatekeepers Universe
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:43:00 -
[2332] - Quote
So if your trying to make Marauders more useful for PVP, does this mean your going to make Black Ops more useful for PVE?
I had thought the idea of T2 hulls were to have them more of a specialization.
Why can't Marauders work like this with reguards to ship bonuses:
1x tank bonus 1x damage bonus 2x projected damage bonuses
Then have the Bastion Module increase those bonuses by a percent.
Also this is strange on the Paladin. Odd that it has a super capacitor and the bonus doesn't apply to laser turret usage. You increased the base capacitor so why is the hull capacitor bonus needed?
PALADIN
- Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
Plus it has this for a bonus.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: - 5% bonus to capacitor capacity
|

Kasife Vynneve
Zeewolf Corporation The Order of Pandora
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:45:00 -
[2333] - Quote
Ug. Another fine example of why devs should ignore the whining masses. |

GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:50:00 -
[2334] - Quote
Like many others I've been waiting to see what *the next update* would be for marauders after giving first round of feedback.
The new set of changes are the opposite direction I'd like to see.
My Reasons 1) Marauders should be proper tech 2 battleships and be combat capable in every way a standard battleship is 2) Do not agree with the proposed style of gameplay this bastion module and MJD combo will introduce on any level. 3) Insane nerfs to the existing hulls to force the bastion module down our throats
Something towards the direction i'd like to see 1) Keep the rep bonus on the hulls. 2) don't nerf the hulls from their current form in any form ( I mean really, you're taking a currently underutilized black sheep of a ship and nerfing it?? ) 3) if you're stuck on this bastion module + MJD i suggest turning the bastion module into a fully offensive role giving bonuses to Damage, ROF, Range, Tracking / Exp Radius / Velocity. 4) As a trade off of having a useful purpose on the bastion module increase the timer for the MJD so you cant instantly MJD, Siege, Unsiege MJD again, Say 60 second siege timer 90sec reuse timer on the MJD. 5) Fix the sensor strength to be inline with other battleships. 6) Maybe reconsider proper tech 2 resists.
V/R GeeBee |

Tarikan
Battlestars Ex Cinere Scriptor
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:56:00 -
[2335] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not my Vargur shield bonus ARRRRGHHH.
While i know many enjoyed their web bonuses i personally never found a need for it so this makes me sad 
although i'm glad to have Tech 2 bonuses...we'll see how this goes i suppose.
|

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 02:56:00 -
[2336] - Quote
Atm the only thing keeping Vargurs alive running lvl 4 mission is the 7.5% shield rep ammount per Minnie bs lvl and speed.
Usual basic layout for a solo carebear:
High slots: 800s, maybe a drone range augmenter and a couple of neuts or vamps. Mission runners rarely use or need utility slots. Mid: ab, asb, invulns, sba, tc with script Low: dcu, tes, gyros Rig: shield resists/guns Drones/ammo: whatever the resist hole is on the npcs being shot Implants/drugs: whatever tickles your fancy.
Works pretty well until the toon learns that less expensive ships with less sp and less bling run missions faster and with less drama. That is why Vargurs are not very popular for running lvl 4s. For pretty much the price of a Vargur hull one can buy and fit a navy hull with enough bling to outperform a Vargur with 3 bill+ of bling.
Fast forward to the "new" Vargur....what is its niche/point for pve? Warp to mission site, turn on bastion, shoot everything in sight, learn geometry to mjd to gate, rinse, repeat. Devs want us to fit a mjd AND a mwd, really? Weaken the tank further? I don't get it because without the 7.5% shield rep ammount added to the nerf in defences and speed and agility makes an unbastioned Vargur useless once the rats begin shooting. I hope the bastion module can keep the Vargur alive for 60s when on The Assault one misses the triggers and at the end has 5 cardinals, 5 monsenors and a few popes all shooting at you because even with the 7.5% rep one has to quickly bug out.
What is the stasis web thingy for on a Vargur? No one asked for it. Atm a flight of light drones will kill frigs/elite frigs that get past the guns and the 800s will kill any cruiser or larger no mater how close or fast they orbit.
For the nullbears that have to hold hands while they fly in groups this "new" Vargur kind of makes sense, it could also be used by the solo carebears if they want to put up with all the ****** needed to fly it. The question is, why bother? |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:04:00 -
[2337] - Quote
I hope this chorus against the 7.5% rep nerf reaches the Dev's ears with the same clarity that the Incursion whiners did.
The original proposed changes were 90% of what was necessary. But I would rather you do nothing than do what is currently proposed. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:07:00 -
[2338] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Bastion fits with nothing as it has to nerf the crap out of the 'host ship' in non-bastion mode, nothing has ever been like the bastion mod in the history of the game. And don't forget the MJD it's a magic combo we are are talking about here MJD+Bastion. This is a 100% NEW animal. And true dreads are "designed to lay siege to the largest of all structures in EVE" a feature the bastion is not supposed to be for.
So do it right and put this on its own hull and don't pretend it's a re-balance.
On one point at least we are in agreement, I would rather see Bastion not "nerf the crap out of the host ship" and would rather see the trade-offs and bonuses of the module balance out overall.
However I don't think there is any need to move this on to an entirely new class of ship, just for Bastion to be toned down to more of an optional module as opposed to the forced requirement of the Dreadnaughts.
The Marauders have always been good at tanking, I would love to see a specific module with a cool transformation effect that buffs its tank in exchange for some trade-offs.
hmskrecik wrote:I do not condemn. I have just given my interpretation of present state. From you comment of choosing damage I guess you're talking about running anoms, where Paladin seems to be indeed at disadvantage. During missions damage chooses you, so it's where Paladin has an advantage, and in incursions and wormholes you omni tank anyway, advantage again.
Also this "more even" T1 profile is because it's much weaker to begin with! I remind you that we're talking about 1 to 3 hardeners on T2 vs. obligatory 3 or even 4 on T1.
No, talking about missions where faction determines what type of damage you deal if you have the option to choose. To some extent it also determines where you're going to mission with a particular ship.
For the Amarr they tend to like to shoot Blood Raiders and Sansha because that's where they deal the most damage. With a T1 ship the resists don't really factor, all T1 ships have the same resists. When you get to full T2 though then you're looking at a pretty big difference in the number of hardeners you have to fit depending on what you're shooting.
If it were simply a trade-off between killing faster and tanking better I wouldn't mind, that's not a bad thing, but the Kronos and Golem don't really have to worry about that. Shooting Guristas? Deal Kin/Therm and tank Kinetic.
In-fact Kinetic or Thermal is one of the two damage types to deal on every NPC faction.
On top of this the Kronos and Golem both have high Kin and Therm resists which also makes up the vast majority of resisted damage in missions as well. So now we're looking at two ships that deal more effective damage AND can tank the rats for those types more effectively and two ships that have to pick. That SUCKS for the people who fly those two ships. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:13:00 -
[2339] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf. You get a 100% rep amount boost You gained a 80% web for slowing down smaller targets Old kronos mass = 101,800,000 kg New kronos mass = 113,160,000 kg fit propulsion all marauders get a web bonus New is obviously better than the old 
100% rep bonus, only when sitting still. although considering nearly every self rep mod just got buffed it isn't quite a 37.5% hit. for lv4s most marauders didn't really even need the rep bonus anyways.
ships that didn't really need an 80% web got one, and two ships lost 90% webs for 80%
and yea the mass change isn't anywhere near as bad as some people are making it out to be
should have had a prop mod already, although with base speed and mass nerf you will be going slower.
You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Zoe Israfil
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:27:00 -
[2340] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I hope this chorus against the 7.5% rep nerf reaches the Dev's ears with the same clarity that the Incursion whiners did.
The original proposed changes were 90% of what was necessary. But I would rather you do nothing than do what is currently proposed.
I must say I was much more in support of these ships before as well. I dislike the current set up. Though T2 resists are going to be an improvement, I've always viewed marauders as a solo account dream boat. To this day I only have one active account and hope to continue with only one account. The current proposal seems to attempt to make them fleet viable. This seems like a horrible move...
These ships now feel very poorly thought out. At first they were solo towers of accurate long range carnage. I approved very very much. It would seem in an effort to make the fleet viable you have nerfred one of the strongest bonuses on the ship. If the ship is designed to use a bastion module, why would you make it RR friendly? This just does not seem to make sense. In bastion mode they still will be unable to receive RR support, so why nerf the self tank. These now have VERY limited viability even in small/mid gang pvp, an area of ship use I was previously very excited to explore. If you intent to keep the bastion module, can you please design these ships to USE it completely. At first I thought these ships were "just unfocused enough to be interesting", now they truly do seem to have lost all specificity and purpose. If you wish to remove the self-tank bonus, I would please ask of a significant re-think of the bastion module. Please design the ship to be pvp or pve specific (or specif for another task all together).
P.S. By "Self Tank" I'm referring to the 30% resists from the module as well as the 37.5% local tank boost |
|

Onslaughtor
Carbon Dateing
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:28:00 -
[2341] - Quote
I love the idea of the bastion module but I feel we are getting away from what these ships were conceived and named for.
ma-+raud-+er noun plural noun: marauders
1. a person who marauds; a raider.
raid-+er noun noun: raider;GÇâplural noun: raiders
1. a person who attacks an enemy in the enemy's territory; a marauder.
So how do we do this. Besides cloaking? Because we need less cloaking ships. Idea? Some mechanic that removes ones self from local and long range d-scan.
Just think about that for a moment. Its not that OP and would actually allow these ships to operate with some safety and give them something truly specialized. If this was enacted then the current TQ versions of the hulls would actually work and not be to OP or broken.
Anyway just a thought. I was personal good with the first iteration on marauders and bastion. The new version is just far to scattered in its goal. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:35:00 -
[2342] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Quote: In L4s you don't need the tank, so just stick with the pirate BS. That's what I'm going to be forced to do after these changes. And I don't want to. I love the Paladin. I love the model. I love that it's going to transform into a cool battlestation thingy now. But if it sucks, and it will suck for missioning compared to any number of other ships, then I won't fly it.
I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is.
also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps! You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Jonas Valence
Black Rise Escape Hatch Zero Hour Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:36:00 -
[2343] - Quote
Just like to point out, maybe I missed it in the previous posts- the latest iteration.
Kronos, Paladin, Vargur - Marauder skill lvl gives a weapon bonus and an ewar bonus. Golem - Maraduer skill gives ewar, and ewar.
For me, web on Golem is a useless and will never be used bonus. Why not give the Golem an equal bonus to other hulls. Some boost to missle performance and the tp bonus, to be inline with the other hulls.
Just a faithful Golem pilot's two-cents. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:42:00 -
[2344] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is.
also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps!
Except that lasers already have a great range set for missions. The optimal bonus may be good for PvP but on a mission boat a tracking bonus would probably be worth more, especially since it's not stacking penalized. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:42:00 -
[2345] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf. You get a 100% rep amount boost You gained a 80% web for slowing down smaller targets Old kronos mass = 101,800,000 kg New kronos mass = 113,160,000 kg fit propulsion all marauders get a web bonus New is obviously better than the old  100% rep bonus, only when sitting still. although considering nearly every self rep mod just got buffed it isn't quite a 37.5% hit. for lv4s most marauders didn't really even need the rep bonus anyways. ships that didn't really need an 80% web got one, and two ships lost 90% webs for 80% and yea the mass change isn't anywhere near as bad as some people are making it out to be should have had a prop mod already, although with base speed and mass nerf you will be going slower.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:45:00 -
[2346] - Quote
Big rEy wrote:zbaaca wrote: 2 CCP Ytterbium stop screwing golem . now it become piece of sh*t
True, I've stopped training for one when I read the las post from Ytterbium  I will stay with my RNI.
golem looks fine, probably the marauder least affected by the proposed changes, also with the cruise buff it just got better (vargur is a close second but them winmatar resists!). You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
705
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:48:00 -
[2347] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Quote: In L4s you don't need the tank, so just stick with the pirate BS. That's what I'm going to be forced to do after these changes. And I don't want to. I love the Paladin. I love the model. I love that it's going to transform into a cool battlestation thingy now. But if it sucks, and it will suck for missioning compared to any number of other ships, then I won't fly it. I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is. also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps! All armor reps getting +15% means the paladin doesn't stand out there though. Agreed on the range vs tracking, and bastion adds a nice option, but it will be slower, moreso under prop mods due to mass difference, have less drone flexibility and probably less tank after fitting aside from bastion focused tanks.
Which is my issue, the ships are going the direction of being prenerfed to keep bastion from being OP, and personally, I wanted to be an option, not something mandatory to keep it from being inferior for solo work. For incursions I'm not sure where it stands, web nerf seems compensated for by the more omni friendly resist profile. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:49:00 -
[2348] - Quote
ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.
Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
705
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:51:00 -
[2349] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is.
also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps! Except that lasers already have a great range set for missions. The optimal bonus may be good for PvP but on a mission boat a tracking bonus would probably be worth more, especially since it's not stacking penalized. With the focus seeming to shift from Bastion optional to Bastion+MJD mandatory I'd argue that range would be highly prized. Blinking out 100km on a megapulse+scorch boat and still being viable is one of my hopes that remain intact at this point. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:53:00 -
[2350] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:All armor reps getting +15% means the paladin doesn't stand out there though. Agreed on the range vs tracking, and bastion adds a nice option, but it will be slower, moreso under prop mods due to mass difference, have less drone flexibility and probably less tank after fitting aside from bastion focused tanks.
Which is my issue, the ships are going the direction of being prenerfed to keep bastion from being OP, and personally, I wanted to be an option, not something mandatory to keep it from being inferior for solo work. For incursions I'm not sure where it stands, web nerf seems compensated for by the more omni friendly resist profile.
it doesn't need to stand out on tank with an optimal range and damage bonus on tachyons. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
705
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:54:00 -
[2351] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.
Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.
So basically the marauder should be defined by the bastion capabilities rather than stand on their own with bastion being a situationally viable benefit? |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:57:00 -
[2352] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is.
also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps! Except that lasers already have a great range set for missions. The optimal bonus may be good for PvP but on a mission boat a tracking bonus would probably be worth more, especially since it's not stacking penalized. With the focus seeming to shift from Bastion optional to Bastion+MJD mandatory I'd argue that range would be highly prized. Blinking out 100km on a megapulse+scorch boat and still being viable is one of my hopes that remain intact at this point.
From a tachyon gamma will just shoot just a bit shorter than scorch and do more dps, xray will do slightly less dps and out range scorch.
neither the bastion mod or the MJD will be needed for a paladin. although it is nice the 25% optimal from bastion will be the biggest optimal bonus so it goes first in the stacking penalty formula. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
705
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:57:00 -
[2353] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:All armor reps getting +15% means the paladin doesn't stand out there though. Agreed on the range vs tracking, and bastion adds a nice option, but it will be slower, moreso under prop mods due to mass difference, have less drone flexibility and probably less tank after fitting aside from bastion focused tanks.
Which is my issue, the ships are going the direction of being prenerfed to keep bastion from being OP, and personally, I wanted to be an option, not something mandatory to keep it from being inferior for solo work. For incursions I'm not sure where it stands, web nerf seems compensated for by the more omni friendly resist profile. it doesn't need to stand out on tank with an optimal range and damage bonus on tachyons. The nightmare has the damage bonus as well. Range on the hull seems negated by inferior mobility. These are concerns purely related to outside of Bastion abilities.
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: From a tachyon gamma will just shoot just a bit shorter than scorch and do more dps, xray will do slightly less dps and out range scorch.
neither the bastion mod or the MJD will be needed for a paladin. although it is nice the 25% optimal from bastion will be the biggest optimal bonus so it goes first in the stacking penalty formula.
Had trouble fitting tach's and being happy with the fit in the past, though the increased fitting could well change that. We'll see. Though I wonder if I'll miss the tracking. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:57:00 -
[2354] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.
Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.
100% bonus to brick tanking. Which means we can no longer dictate range. The immobile aspect of the siege module is a NERF to a muraders primary defense and damage application system - It's long range.
Forcing us to sit mobile while tanking a while room of agro in order to survive a nasty pocket = slower mission times. Why? We can't dictacte angular velocity or range on our target anymore.
If we are inside or outside the pre-designed orbital of the rat in question, they fly directly away from us or towards us, dopping their angular, allowing us to shoot them for full damage.
Forcing us to sit still to manage incoming damage (brick tanking), severely lowers our DPS output. It's a NERF in DPS in regards to how effective mission running is generally handled. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 03:58:00 -
[2355] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is.
also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps! Except that lasers already have a great range set for missions. The optimal bonus may be good for PvP but on a mission boat a tracking bonus would probably be worth more, especially since it's not stacking penalized.
oh comeon! 65-70km optimal with multi, that's just kick ass! You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1496
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:00:00 -
[2356] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I hope this chorus against the 7.5% rep nerf reaches the Dev's ears with the same clarity that the Incursion whiners did.
The original proposed changes were 90% of what was necessary. But I would rather you do nothing than do what is currently proposed. It is not just the 7.5% rep bonus per level, the t2 resist profile makes them good for rat specific tanking, just like command ships, heavy assault cruisers, T3s, and assault frigates it would seem we have plenty of ships for rat specific tanking. The first iteration of the marauder's bastion module was nice because it basically said "to hell with rat specific tanking" and let you run any kind of site or mission you wanted. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:03:00 -
[2357] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote: 100% rep bonus, only when sitting still. although considering nearly every self rep mod just got buffed it isn't quite a 37.5% hit. for lv4s most marauders didn't really even need the rep bonus anyways.
ships that didn't really need an 80% web got one, and two ships lost 90% webs for 80%
and yea the mass change isn't anywhere near as bad as some people are making it out to be
should have had a prop mod already, although with base speed and mass nerf you will be going slower.
Lets see if I can give the reading base some clarification about why so many Murader pilots want the web bonus gone for something else... and why we seriously dislike the idea of a "Stationary" gun fortress. To effectively run missions - we fight at range. Large guns hit with certainty around 30km++ (for Vargur / Paladin) or 35++ For the Kronos. Golem is a wild child and is more interested in sig radius, but gets a painter bonus (which is usefull for that hull). Because of this, most engagement ranges for these Muraders is 30-60km, with the Paladin and Kronos pushing out 80 or more KM for effective DPS. We prefer to fight at range, and have the ability to do damage at range because it is both faster and safer for mission running. Most Battle Ships primarily Distance Tank. We are able to stay outside of weapons damage range of the NPC rats, and using an AB or MWD we can easily dictate both range and angular velocity to targets to a level of high fidelity, ensuring optimal safety and damage application.
the web bonus is very good in some situations and I don't think it really detracts from anything else the hulls do.
and that is more or less how I have flown my marauder since I got it not too long after they got released. Only I'd rather say I gank tank than range tank. a ~300 dps tank is sufficient for any lv4 that I've run. having the range is just a bonus as I can start most engagements using high damage ammo instead of swapping.
and to nitpick the kronos and paladin are effective at mostly the same ranges, and the vargur probably wants to be a bit closer (which is fine as angels can't really hit for crap) You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:06:00 -
[2358] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:I hope this chorus against the 7.5% rep nerf reaches the Dev's ears with the same clarity that the Incursion whiners did.
The original proposed changes were 90% of what was necessary. But I would rather you do nothing than do what is currently proposed. It is not just the 7.5% rep bonus per level, the t2 resist profile makes them good for rat specific tanking, just like command ships, heavy assault cruisers, T3s, and assault frigates it would seem we have plenty of ships for rat specific tanking. The first iteration of the marauder's bastion module was nice because it basically said "to hell with rat specific tanking" and let you run any kind of site or mission you wanted.
who doesn't love fighting angels with their amarr t2 ships!?
but anyways the bastion module seems compelling at this point with most of the bonuses going right into the hull. I'll probably fit one anyways just cuz nothing else to really put in an 8th high on a marauder, and every now and then I can see it being useful.
oh and I'm still rooting for a 200% tractor bonus. after using a noctis the marauder tractors stink! You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:07:00 -
[2359] - Quote
Certainly the conclusion seems to strongly be that webs are the wrong module to be associated with this ship by a long way. Perhaps look at a more appropriate bonus for a stationary/slow moving ship? That is either never going to get into web range or is still not going to be able to hit it's target. Smart bomb range would be a very unique bonus (if not usable in High sec due to concord risks) which would be usable. Point range so you can keep point even while they burn away from your 0m/s BS. Two easy options at least. And both PvP related uses. |

Zoe Israfil
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:08:00 -
[2360] - Quote
I would simply like to point out proposed changes to tank. As a solo boat I strongly believe that these ships should be quite self reliant.
Assumptions:
For comparison I am using a current vargur resist profile + 30% resist bastion module +37.5% rep bonus +100% bastion rep bonus as Ship A.
Ship B consists of an imaginary vargur with T2 resists, no ship rep bonus, no bastion resist bonus, and a +100% bastion rep bonus.
The "Rep module" is an imaginary 1000 hp /5 second shield booster. I am doing math by hand so I picked nice numbers, also please check the math as it's possible I've made a mistake.
Ship A:
Resist Profile:
25 50 40 30
Resist w/Bastion:
47.5 65 58 51 (no stacking pen per OP original specs)
AVG: 55.375
1000 *1.375 HP / 5 Secs = 275 hp / sec
= EHP Rep bonus of 616.246 ehp/ sec
+100% bastion module = 1232.49 ehp/ sec
___________________________________
Ship B:
Resist Profile:
75 50 40 60
(no change due to bastion)
AVG: 56.25
1000*1 HP / 5 Seconds = 200 Hp / sec
= EHP Rep bonus of 457.18 ehp/sec
+100% Bastion module = 914.286 ehp/ sec _____________________________________
Therefore as this stands the new changes reduce local tank by ~ 25.8%!!!! That is a huge nerf.
25.8%
To address some previous posters:
No, you don't need a huge tank in level 4's, but you do in many OTHER areas of the game. Before this change they were small gang pvp viable, they were anom viable, they were very very interesting and I was extremely excited to see just how far this type of ship could be pushed. These ships have typically been the GodKingEmporor of solo/single account play. It is my strong opinion that they retain this title and therefore their local tank bonuses. It allows for a much wider range of game play with these ships. As I see it these changes have been enacted to make bastions fleet viable. They are still not fleet viable (at least with bastion mode) and without bastion mode they lose whatever specialty/nice edge they might have ever had. This is like CCP saying you can now have a fleet viable dred, just you can not siege it. Except on these ships they get better at hitting other pvp ships instead of worse. This is a terrible, terrible change in my opinion. I was so super excited about these ships, now they seem to have lost most of their allure. They truly do seem to only be fit for incursions/ lvl 4's as they sit. Please strongly reconsider the most recent iteration CCP, I do not approve.
Feel free to check the math as it was done quickly and angrily by hand. It is also late, but those numbers should be quite close to accurate as they are.
|
|

yodayblack
Tactical Munitions Sev3rance
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:15:00 -
[2361] - Quote
WHY!!!!!!!!
Really.. why.. this is so insane i keep checking the calendar to make sure it isnt April. You want to take away our tanking bonus to give us back our web bonus, at a nerf'd rate? Why does a golem need a web bonus anyway? At first the changes where bearable. Annoying, requiring a completely new fitting idea. Now.. this is just plain stupid.
Also how is this going to help in pvp? You want them to jump away and go into a siege mode.. Then use range weapons and range ammo so a maxxed skilled kronos pilot is going to add what 300 dps in a pvp fight? Lulz yeah lets bring a 1.2 billion isk ship into a fight and add 300dps. I can get that in a **** fit demios for 1/4 the price. or out dps it in a t1 rail fit naga for even less.
These ships were created to run mission. The only thing your doing is making more people switch to pirate ships and leave these in the hangar.. These updates wont make them viable in pvp, just makes them less viable for missions. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:18:00 -
[2362] - Quote
Now redo the maths for situation A using a 0% Bastion module. You are trying to combine the effect of two changes at once here. One of which was not currently in game and was only in initial proposal stage. So using two different bastion module proposals to argue a single stat change doesn't work. The T2 resist profile is to compensate for the Rep bonus being lost. Not for both bonuses. And you get another bonus alongside the T2 resists as a result (Currently Webs, and the ships that used to have a web bonus get a different bonus instead if you want to look at it that way) |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:20:00 -
[2363] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Now redo the maths for situation A using a 0% Bastion module. You are trying to combine the effect of two changes at once here. One of which was not currently in game and was only in initial proposal stage. So using two different bastion module proposals to argue a single stat change doesn't work. The T2 resist profile is to compensate for the Rep bonus being lost. Not for both bonuses. And you get another bonus alongside the T2 resists as a result (Currently Webs, and the ships that used to have a web bonus get a different bonus instead if you want to look at it that way)
but those were the two changes proposed so it makes sense to compare them right? You can trust me, I have a monocole |

baltec1
Bat Country
7823
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:20:00 -
[2364] - Quote
With the goal of these ships being to project better damage over longer distances I cant help but feel the web bonus is very out of place being that its a very close range tool. I much preferred the the bonus to the active tank. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1497
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:23:00 -
[2365] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium, it would seem many would prefer iteration one with the following changes. Kronos, give back the web bonus but reduced to 7.5% leave the rest as is. Paladin, give back the web bonus but reduced to 7.5% leave the rest as is. Vargur, no one seems to be complaining about the web bonus, but put it where the old TP bonus was. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:24:00 -
[2366] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
but those were the two changes proposed so it makes sense to compare them right?
No, because the Bastion resist bonus was removed because CCP felt it was OP in it's own right, in either iteration. They mentioned something about in house thinking it was OP already before they even discussed the T2 resist profile vs rep bonus. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:25:00 -
[2367] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Ytterbium, it would seem many would prefer iteration one with the following changes. Kronos, give back the web bonus but reduced to 7.5% leave the rest as is. Paladin, give back the web bonus but reduced to 7.5% leave the rest as is. Vargur, no one seems to be complaining about the web bonus, but put it where the old TP bonus was.
as a vargur guy, if we get a web bonus i might use one, but its not a high priority.... and seeing as the big bonus is to range, if i am going to use a marauder i will probably start training amarr because i like tachyons for many situations
that is to say, i already have vargurs on some characters, and one character can use a paladin (but hasnt yet) and i think i will be switching. Just taste no complaint here about one being op or anything. |

Oberus MacKenzie
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:31:00 -
[2368] - Quote
Oberus MacKenzie wrote:- get rid of the web bonus in favor of some variation of a defense bonus (or if that's not an option at least change golem/vargur to web range for variety) - change the paladin's capacitor bonus to a damage application bonus (tracking or ROF) to mirror the kronos and vargur - swap the golem's TP bonus for a built-in explosion radius bonus (5% per level or so) and drop one mid slot for one low slot - apply T2 resists - give the bastion mod a mild damage application bonus (20% to tracking, 10% to explosion vel+rad) - make the bastion module use 25 heavy water per cycle
I'd like to make an addendum or two: - someone mentioned a probe strength bonus and ability to fit expanded probe launcher, which is a fantastic idea - get rid of the MJD bonus (great idea for the blackops revision, though!) and make it able to warp out of bubbles (like T3's with an interdiction nullifier)
|

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
373
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:38:00 -
[2369] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
I do not understand.
So you're tearing out their powerful active tanking ability, but only when they're not using bastion mode?
So now they HAVE to use bastion mode? Regardless of the activity?
AND YOU ARE GIVING THEM ALL WEB BONUSES?!
WHAT
WHAT ARE YOU DOING, WHY, THE WEB BONUSES ARE ONLY REALLY VALID ON THE KRONOS. Every time I come back to this thread, I am more and more confused. And I am now most DEFINITELY selling my Golem. Webs will not help a cruise Golem in any way shape or form. PvE or PvP. How are you supposed to USE the webs, anyways? Lock down in bastion mode and just HOPE that the enemy stays in web range long enough for you to crap whatever guns you have over them? Wow, I can't.
I just can't.
Not to mention the web bonus contradicts your "projecting damage" thing because AFAIK, webs only work within 10-14 km and under. And you know what? I think these changes have killed these ships for PvP. Just completely wrecked them. You're not going to see marauders outside of L4s. Hell, I'm probably going to sell mine and buy a CNR. It's cheaper, faster, and not constrained by having to use an utterly bizarre module to rearrange how it sucks. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:42:00 -
[2370] - Quote
Aglais wrote: "Only Valid on the Kronos....
Kronos Pilot here... Nope! Not even needed on a valid Kronos.
It's not needed. Not with the range and damage of rails... And we have the PG / CPU to fit our full sized rails without gimping the fit...
Dual Tracking Computers... -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:43:00 -
[2371] - Quote
Oberus MacKenzie wrote:- give the bastion mod a mild damage application bonus (20% to tracking, 10% to explosion vel+rad)
GOLEM does not need any 10% explo vel+rad bonus.
GOLEM needs serious large missile velocity bonus, like 100%+ This would make golem useful in pvp and PVE alot more. It doesnt increase dps but it increases chance to hit alot!
and +1 low slot ffs..
why missiles are not being used in pvp, especially torps and cruises? because they apply damage with huge delay and can be mitigated really easily. Why try to fix it like *********? rather fix it like it's supposed to be.
I mean.. for gods sake we have torpedoe traveling 3500 m/s , crusies 12k m/s cruises are slowly getting to the point of being useful - torps, far from it and only used on bombers if at all. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
373
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:45:00 -
[2372] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Aglais wrote: "Only Valid on the Kronos.... Kronos Pilot here... Nope! Not even needed on a valid Kronos. It's not needed. Not with the range and damage of rails... And we have the PG / CPU to fit our full sized rails without gimping the fit... Dual Tracking Computers...
Then why the fresh hell did they lose their active tanking bonuses for web strength? This is absolutely bonkers. It doesn't help any of the marauders because long range guns are useful on them. Cruise golems can be off at like 120 kilometers and do whatever and not even need to think about webs. Ever. Torp golems... Still outside of web range.
Do the resistance profiles make up for the loss of the active tank bonus? If yes, I can excuse that. If no, I will have to begin seriously doubting this round of rebalancing and hope to hell that in mid-october there is a Marauders Round II thread. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7824
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:47:00 -
[2373] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Aglais wrote: "Only Valid on the Kronos.... Kronos Pilot here... Nope! Not even needed on a valid Kronos. It's not needed. Not with the range and damage of rails... And we have the PG / CPU to fit our full sized rails without gimping the fit... Dual Tracking Computers...
Its only handy with antimatter balsters but most of the time things will be in null range and if we cannot move then its a mostly useless mod.
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:48:00 -
[2374] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:
The Golem in particular is disappointing. We now have a propulsion system which moves in units of 100km (MJD), a tractor beam bonus which works out to 40km, a web bonus which works out to 12km, and a weapon system which is either 35-40km or lock range. There is a severe lack of focus going on here.
Yeah, with V1.0 I was really liking the Golem.
V2.0 is a mess. I hope you guys realize how weird this is. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
705
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:52:00 -
[2375] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.
Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.
baltec1 wrote:With the goal of these ships being to project better damage over longer distances I cant help but feel the web bonus is very out of place being that its a very close range tool. I much preferred the the bonus to the active tank. So much fir the hive mind.
That aside it's nice to know it's not just the highsec dwellers that think the new direction is unfocused. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:53:00 -
[2376] - Quote
Aglais wrote: Do the resistance profiles make up for the loss of the active tank bonus? If yes, I can excuse that. If no, I will have to begin seriously doubting this round of rebalancing and hope to hell that in mid-october there is a Marauders Round II thread.
It just hit me...
CCP isn't trying to re-invent the Murader: A person engaged in banditry or related activity (Wikipedia).
CCP is trying to turn the Murader into a Siege Tank: Siege Tank
I think we are feeling that on a subconscious level, and we are wholly rejecting it - because it comes at the expense of something we already have.
Now that I have some perspective on this. I would LOVE to see this creation as an ADDITION to my game, not at the EXPENSE of my Murader.
CCP - I'm calling you out. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:54:00 -
[2377] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Xequecal wrote:ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.
Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.
100% bonus to brick tanking. Which means we can no longer dictate range. The immobile aspect of the siege module is a NERF to a muraders primary defense and damage application system - It's long range. Forcing us to sit mobile while tanking a while room of agro in order to survive a nasty pocket = slower mission times. Why? We can't dictacte angular velocity or range on our target anymore. If we are inside or outside the pre-designed orbital of the rat in question, they fly directly away from us or towards us, dopping their angular, allowing us to shoot them for full damage. Forcing us to sit still to manage incoming damage (brick tanking), severely lowers our DPS output. It's a NERF in DPS in regards to how effective mission running is generally handled.
Against sansha/blood, tracking disruptor immunity is worth far more DPS than the DPS lost from beingstationary. Against other rats, you have your t2 resists in place of the tank bonus. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7824
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:58:00 -
[2378] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: So much fir the hive mind.
That aside it's nice to know it's not just the highsec dwellers that think the new direction is unfocused.
When it comes to mega hulls I have a very keen interest.
The original idea was exciting to me but this latest build is no good. Its just a slower vindi with less DPS without bastion and with it it has less staying power and a useless bonus to a mod that will not be needed at all. If I want a blaster battleship with a web bonus I would use the vindi which is better suited for this task. |

Big rEy
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:59:00 -
[2379] - Quote
Jasmine Assasin wrote:Darkwolf wrote:
The Golem in particular is disappointing. We now have a propulsion system which moves in units of 100km (MJD), a tractor beam bonus which works out to 40km, a web bonus which works out to 12km, and a weapon system which is either 35-40km or lock range. There is a severe lack of focus going on here.
Yeah, with V1.0 I was really liking the Golem. V2.0 is a mess. I hope you guys realize how weird this is. I hope they do. Instead of web give a bonus to tractor beam on golem. It's a missile/torpedo boat which isn't good for incursions due to the ammo type. I am a new player and I still don't get it: why a tech II that takes 100 days to get into it, it performs almost the same as a RNI which takes very little time to get in. After one mounth I had an RNI and it would seem that I should stay in it forever because there is nothing much better for L4 in the game. The only reason to get a marauder it's for "salvaging as you go". That's it! Always I will be ready to meet the next challenge even if is bigger that me ! |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 04:59:00 -
[2380] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: Against sansha/blood, tracking disruptor immunity is worth far more DPS than the DPS lost from beingstationary. Against other rats, you have your t2 resists in place of the tank bonus.
That is a non issue. Extreme range on guns, and the ability to MOVE to lower angular is how you best blood raiders.
The only rats the bastion module EWAR immunity truly helps against are Pithi Jammers. You seriously have to nerf your fit to get a semblance of a work around.
The ability to MOVE helps turret gunners hit their targets more effectively than any other module or boosting service. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
491
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:06:00 -
[2381] - Quote
It appears that CCP decided to give back web bonuses to allow marauder fleets to try to get rid of ships that try to get closer so that they could scram a fleet member once bastion is down. It kind of make sense, but in this case I'd prefer small web range bonus. That, however, would warrant further reduction of web speed factor bonus (probably). Maybe something like 5% per level bonus to both could work (webs would still require overheating and faction bling, but whatever...).
That said, I feel that this helps noone when it comes to PvE. Maaaybe (some math was done, but not quite sure still about that) those ships will be doing well in logiless 11 man VG fleets (EWar immunity allows you to ignore Niarjas and go straight for Augas and other DPS and that actually can work, although I'm still not sure how competitive those fleets will be), but that's it. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
242
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:18:00 -
[2382] - Quote
honestly a ship called MARAUDER that focus on defense doesnt make sense to me.
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:19:00 -
[2383] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Xequecal wrote: Against sansha/blood, tracking disruptor immunity is worth far more DPS than the DPS lost from beingstationary. Against other rats, you have your t2 resists in place of the tank bonus. That is a non issue. Extreme range on guns, and the ability to MOVE to lower angular is how you best blood raiders. The only rats the bastion module EWAR immunity truly helps against are Pithi Jammers. You seriously have to nerf your fit to get a semblance of a work around. The ability to MOVE helps turret gunners hit their targets more effectively than any other module or boosting service.
Moot point and situational if your dmg output is projected well and you know at what range your tracking will break there is no need to move at all.
Point of siege'd marauder is exactly that it will project its dps in a away that no one of us truly know ...that blaster kronos that was posted by CCP guy had r******d range with crappy enhancer and tracking comp,you cant dream of those numbers with current ships it doesn't matter how many or what king of gear you slap on it or what is linking / boosting you.
You can also relocate your self if needed be like having tracking issues or what ever.
meet dominix with crappy t1 resist no boost bonus no crystals no drugs no bastion no tracking bonus 2 slot tank. standing perfectly still and ...well...dominating.
I cant see how ships that will have all of what that ship don't will suck at mission running.
That being said..i do find universal web bonus weird(maybe range webs) a...s well i hate MJD bonus and don't appreciate nerf in speed / agility outside bastion module. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:24:00 -
[2384] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
-1
Seem lilke the Maurauders were suppose to be a T2 sniping version BS because the bonus they get have to do with increase range on their main weapons. This would further indicate this since they get a buff for MJD usage, and the bastion module increase range on their main guns.
So why the webs? are they suppose to be tackling ships? Don't we have other ships that can do a better job at this? Also aren't T2 ships suppose to be more specialize? By adding this bonus aren't you making them more versatile as a T1? |

Dracvlad
The Riot Formation Public Disorder.
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:45:00 -
[2385] - Quote
I just read that you have removed the resists from the Bastion mode, I am not going to read all the hot air in this thread, but I was very excited by this original idea for both PvP and PvE and was looking forward to using these ships, now I will not bother as they will be worse than they were before, what an absolute dogs dinner!!!
There are times that CCP should just go for it and this was one of them times.
EDIT: You had created a new and exciting BS and you let the spergelords destroy it, god damnit!!!! If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space, its as simple as that!-á-á-á-á-á-á-á There are people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local, well they should light a cyno and try jumping to it. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
105
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:50:00 -
[2386] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Woah. Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus... that's weaker than the current web bonus. This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling. My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.
+1 Really... Thats sad News... |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1497
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:53:00 -
[2387] - Quote
Maybe it is worth considering splitting the class into two ships. A PVP focused one, t2 resists better damage worse damage application, cheaper cost roughly half current ones.
A PVE one, better damage application, rep bonuses, bastion module (with res bonus back.), tractor bonuses, minor scan probe bonus (maybe) but less tank when out of bastion mode than PVP focused one.
Both would get the 70% reduction to MJD cool down time
If the PVP group could find the bastion module useful then it could be handled so that the PVE focused ship has a role bonus for 30% shield, armor, and hull resistances when deployed. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:53:00 -
[2388] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Patrice Macmahon wrote:Xequecal wrote: Against sansha/blood, tracking disruptor immunity is worth far more DPS than the DPS lost from beingstationary. Against other rats, you have your t2 resists in place of the tank bonus. That is a non issue. Extreme range on guns, and the ability to MOVE to lower angular is how you best blood raiders. The only rats the bastion module EWAR immunity truly helps against are Pithi Jammers. You seriously have to nerf your fit to get a semblance of a work around. The ability to MOVE helps turret gunners hit their targets more effectively than any other module or boosting service. Moot point and situational if your dmg output is projected well and you know at what range your tracking will break there is no need to move at all. Point of siege'd marauder is exactly that it will project its dps in a away that no one of us truly know ...that blaster kronos that was posted by CCP guy had r******d range with crappy enhancer and tracking comp,you cant dream of those numbers with current ships it doesn't matter how many or what king of gear you slap on it or what is linking / boosting you. You can also relocate your self if needed be like having tracking issues or what ever. meet dominix with crappy t1 resist no boost bonus no crystals no drugs no bastion no tracking bonus 2 slot tank. standing perfectly still and ...well...dominating. I cant see how ships that will have all of what that ship don't will suck at mission running. That being said..i do find universal web bonus weird(maybe range webs) a...s well i hate MJD bonus and don't appreciate nerf in speed / agility outside bastion module. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

marVLs
398
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:07:00 -
[2389] - Quote
About this last changes, not only You tank worse with and without bastion but You lost 30% res to hull in bastion mode
So another thing suggest that first iteration was better (but still no good) |

To mare
Advanced Technology
242
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:16:00 -
[2390] - Quote
marVLs wrote:About this last changes, not only You tank worse with and without bastion but You lost 30% res to hull in bastion mode So another thing suggest that first iteration was better (but still no good)
first iteration of bastion module just screamed station camping machine now its a bit toned down (not too much since now you got full T2 resist active all the time) but still not what a marauder should do imho |
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:18:00 -
[2391] - Quote
@ Patrice Macmahon
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I sentry range rig
Naiyon's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist invul
The very things i would use on marauder / pirate ship as a matter of fact i did unfit my kronos to fit that domi.
I am getting 1000 dps with kronos 4 mags / t2 burst excluding drones because incoming nerf...(much easier to fit it don't NEED bilion in tank that domi does need)
I would like to see more dps sure i wasted billions on those ships..but that dmg projection will be extreme bonus. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1145
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:19:00 -
[2392] - Quote
oh ffs
The first iteration was only bad for incursion bears, really. For level 4 runners, despite everyone's complaints and hooplah, the MJD + turtle up allows you to deal with full room aggro (aside from, maybe, neuting Blood Raiders) via zomg tank, and then use short range guns (AC's, blasters, pulses) to dominate out to >100km.
The idea for level 4's in a Vargur would have been to fit TC's, because your falloff is covered by the falloff bonus, an MJD, a reasonable Large shield booster (forget ASB's), a hardener and maybe a cap booster. Rig for damage and tracking, lows full of DCU and Gyros and an east 2200DPS tank. Keep blinking out to maintain damage envelope.
Now...not sure on the tank (T2 resists is nice, but w/e) because you're swapping a 37% repair amount for better resists out of bastion and in Bastion you just lose out compared to iteration 1. This should have been handled by a change to the non-penalised resist bonus of the Bastion module, not by stripping the active tank bonus from the hull.
That's full ******.
Pandering to Incursion bears who need resists out of siege mode so they don't have to change their habits and fits and doctrines is poor, poor game design philosophy.
Plonkling in a useless web bonus is entirely for PVP. I am sure someone in CCP or the CSM is copping an ear bashing about how its going to be a case of Vargurs being scrammed and just dying, which will lead to them sitting on docks or gates and never using the MJD. So, the web was added to help them deal with tacklers.
As pointed out, the Golem cops it hard with this change. A webbed frigate even TP'ed to hell will not die in a short enough time to torps to help. if you rigor rig and flar cat rig it (which is all your rigs) with Cruise you can get LML level explosion radius from precisions, so yeah, web + rigged cruise would be beastly. But already you can basically do this with a Raven and instagib frigates, so a 80% web? Not worth a billion ISK.
The Golem will also have to give up three midslots to partly counter tackle; MJD, TP, Web. This is a little less true for the others, but they'll have to put on a web which is purely defensive get out of scram. Fine, you need to compromise.
CCP would be better changing the base hull for Caldari to the Rokh and going with a rail Marauder in this case, to streamline it with the other ships. Plus a Rokh would look beastly transforming, a Raven hull would do what? Flap its wings, drop an egg? I dunno.
I think the iteration 2 proposal is pretty weak. You get more use from the ships outside Bastion mode, but in Bastion mode it's not worthwhile for PVP. PVE wise it will be slightly better, just not an OP tank. So what? If you already MJD mission this just makes them meh compared to the Navy Raven.
1/10 YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|

Tsukihi Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:19:00 -
[2393] - Quote
In fact, THE CURRENT Version of Marauder IS MUCH BETTER than your new one!! With nerfed rep not in bastion mod, we have less rep in ehp and less ehp, and we have less speed which means we take more damage. When in bastion mode, we take full damage, the 100% more rep doesn't help that much. Don't Even need to say, Golem and VARGUR have a cap problem now. And what is a web for Golem? Cruises don't have any bonus from bastion mode either. Guns have a little damage boost through the increased falloff and optimal, missles get nothing.
If you change Marauders like this, I will definitely destroy my Marauders to salvage. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
109
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:25:00 -
[2394] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:I love the idea of the bastion module but I feel we are getting away from what these ships were conceived and named for.
ma-+raud-+er noun plural noun: marauders
1. a person who marauds; a raider.
raid-+er noun noun: raider;GÇâplural noun: raiders
1. a person who attacks an enemy in the enemy's territory; a marauder.
By this logic frigates and battlecruisers need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, because they don't match the correct nautical usage at all.
|

Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:30:00 -
[2395] - Quote
Dear CCP,
If you really wanted to make marauders a proper PVP platform all you had to is was to buff sensor strength on those ships. They would become epic solo pvp battleships. But then again you decided to be a smartass and went for some ******** changes. This bastion module and all the transformation stuff... I really think someone from devs is watching too much Japanese or Chinese or whatever cartoons. Please stop. Just leave marauders as they are with rep bonus, increase sensor strength, add some T2 rezists and you will get p. much decent PVP ship. It might be hard and even impossible to kill such ship alone, but this is the game of blobs, where people try to bring twice more ppl to kill whatever needed, then add some more ppl and put a falcon on top just to be sure. |

marVLs
398
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:31:00 -
[2396] - Quote
Maybe give them special salvage drone bay (50) with bonus to their salvage strenght |

To mare
Advanced Technology
242
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:38:00 -
[2397] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP,
If you really wanted to make marauders a proper PVP platform all you had to is was to buff sensor strength on those ships. They would become epic solo pvp battleships. But then again you decided to be a smartass and went for some ******** changes. This bastion module and all the transformation stuff... I really think someone from devs is watching too much Japanese or Chinese or whatever cartoons. Please stop. Just leave marauders as they are with rep bonus, increase sensor strength, add some T2 rezists and you will get p. much decent PVP ship. It might be hard and even impossible to kill such ship alone, but this is the game of blobs, where people try to bring twice more ppl to kill whatever needed, then add some more ppl and put a falcon on top just to be sure. haha totally agree
|

Tanik Fera
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:38:00 -
[2398] - Quote
Ok, my OCD is killing me here, for the love of all that is holly please fix the bonuses on the Golum by removing the missile bonuses and adding a warp jammer bonus and an ECM jammer strength bonus! Complete the EWAR set ASAP! |

Fettle
Mindstar Technology Fatal Ascension
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:40:00 -
[2399] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
[PVE perspective] A web bonus to all marauders isn't all that helpful. Not all pilots use the short range weapons that stand to benefit from these webbers. Further, it takes away the identity that currently lie with the Kronos and Paladin.
Regarding the rep bonus removal, as long as the marauders tanking isn't harmed in the process, i'm fine with this. Ideally, improving the tanking would be better, but if it is unaffected due to whatever bonuses you will give (via T2 resist or rep bonuses in bastion mode) than this is fine. Perhaps more capacitor options? The current rep bonus was to speed the rep mod cycle, so perhaps something that effects this could be better.
[PVP perspective] Perhaps webbing range might be better than velocity factor? One could imagine a marauder drop with half (Paladins and Kronos) webbing and the other half (Golems and Vargurs) target painting. A slow, sig-blown target is a target short for the eve galaxy. |

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
401
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:47:00 -
[2400] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You, good sir, have just earned yourself a large can of beer as soon as I get to Iceland.
On the topic of Marauder changes, you've just transformed marauders from snipers to... not sure what. Imo, when it comes to tank, the changes are good, but the close range web kinda doesn't fit the whole picture with MJD jumpring and all. Considering Marauders are a T2 ship that should be specialized in something, that seems remarkably generalist and imo, the web just doesn't fit this frame. I'm not saying close range doesn't fit the overall ship idea, after all, the tractors have a limited range too (provided people even use them). However, if you want to have them used at close range, their speed is going to be a problem. Some people are claiming how the Golem will be an absolute beast in pvp - yeah, well, in order to use that web, you first need to catch a target. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen if you're moving 85 m/s. Even bricks like Rokh are faster and will run circles around those ships.
Then again, this might go hand in hand with Bastion - a sort of "space bunker" with no-entry zone. Hm... I'll have to think about this some more... In that case, our friend above might be right, the webbing range might be a better idea. |
|

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:48:00 -
[2401] - Quote
@ Mina Sebiestar
I think I've lost sight of our discussion here.
To help me clarify your standpoint: Muraders are inferior? (Hence the T1 domi example).
I was pointing out the ship you demonstraited was the cause of a lot of the issues surrounding Muraders (Currently outshined by Navy and Pirate Faction Ships).
So where does that leave us?
The main strength of the Murader is in it's ability to be a semi-universal boat with far reaching / ranging applications with less need to over specialize the fit. With DPS sitting at approximately 800-900 (1,000++ under extremely specialized fitting situations), mobility is needed to ensure safe completion of sites, missions, and complexes at the high end of the difficulty scale. Brick Tanking is inferior to range tanking in these situations, so a Triage or Siege module would be useless, unless that siege module also drastically increased DPS output by 50% or more, as well as jacked tracking speeds to handle medium and smaller class frigates that have reached orbital ranges.
Without the Rep Bonus or Resist Bonus (Out of Siege), the murader would be incapable of handling those "Top Tier" mission pockets / extreme situations. In Siege Mode, effective DPS would be greatly lowered once orbitals are achieved, creating unnecessary hardship compared to the current iteration of Murader.
The Muraders are capable of handling mission pockets and scenarios that your Domi example could not, with less fitting specialization (cheaper and more universal). I am trying to argue that we need to preserve those capabilities and explain how Muraders are currently utilized. We don't brick tank missions. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Fettle
Mindstar Technology Fatal Ascension
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:53:00 -
[2402] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:
Plonkling in a useless web bonus is entirely for PVP. I am sure someone in CCP or the CSM is copping an ear bashing about how its going to be a case of Vargurs being scrammed and just dying, which will lead to them sitting on docks or gates and never using the MJD. So, the web was added to help them deal with tacklers.
1/10
I partially agree with you, in that giving web bonus to all marauders would only be serving a pvp purpose and that the way they'd function wouldn't be crash-hot. However, in PVE the webs have served my kronos well. I run Vindi + Kronos and web the crap out of scramming frigs in a hub. They die in a single volley most of the time due to the dual uber webs. Ths is good because the guns i use are short range. On a golem i don't think it be that helpful. My friends use Torps and grind hubs just as fast (or faster for those shinny shinny golems) simply because they don't have to amble into range like blaster boats and can blow up the sig of smaller vessels. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:54:00 -
[2403] - Quote
Just going to bring this up one more time, all by itself:
Anyone else notice that a Tier 3 Battle Cruiser, is cheaper - has the dame DPS and Range Output as a murader, and is faster with a MWD?
Why are we trying to make a 1 billion isk, T2 Ship fill that role with a MJD?
Is all the extra training and base skills + specialty skills really necessary when, before you can get to that point, you can already slap a MJD on a Rhok or megathron and get the same general effect if you REALLY want it to be a battle ship?
The MJD for PVE would be really situational, and how often are you expecting to have to MJD out of a tight spot while burning away?..... AB's do that already for PVE really well... -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
777
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:54:00 -
[2404] - Quote
I'm more then a little skeptical about the web bonus, especially on the kronos.
There really is no reason to buy a kronos, when you compare it to the vindicator. Unless armor incursion fleets are somehow going to get more popular, you are going to be stuck in a ship doomed to flying level 4 missions for all eternity.
The new kronos seem like a weak version of the vindicator, weak damage, no mobility and weak webs.
It's has superior tank, which wouldn't be needed if it was able to move. It has better range, which it wouldn't need if it was able to move. Everything added to the marauders is added because they are now stationary ships, which all-in-all makes them just as useless as they are now.
The pirate ship will remain the end of the line pve battleship, and the marauders will remain overpriced under performing level 4 ships... I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |

Tsukihi Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 06:55:00 -
[2405] - Quote
Now in fact we get less DPS, less TANK, less Mobility, And ,we need to put more skill points into this.
WHY do we need this crap? |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:02:00 -
[2406] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: But how Paladin and (to a lesser extent) Vargur can be good for PvE if their resist don't match the rats they are fighting? Maybe because both Paladin and Vargur are natural omni tankers? Which means that no matter what rats you fight you can easily tank against them. None of filling this explosive hole on Kronos and EM on Golem. Still doesn't change the fact that the Golem and Kronos are in a better position to tank every type of mission rat than the Vargur or Paladin. With high Kin/Therm resists you can ignore half or all of the resists needed for every mission rat in the game since they all deal Kinetic or Thermal as a primary or secondary damage type and 8 out of 14 rat types deal primarily both. The argument is not that these are worse than what's on live, it's that the 30% omni-resists from Bastion were better.
Exactly my point. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5748
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:05:00 -
[2407] - Quote
I'm really not terribly pleased with the latest iteration. Removal of the active rep bonus? Removal of the 30% stacking resists? Does the T2 resist change actually make up for that or does it fall short? My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Critical Issue
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:09:00 -
[2408] - Quote
I think we need a "Juggernaut".
and yea ... new update screwed them totally, i was liking the first iteration a lot. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:09:00 -
[2409] - Quote
Hey - Okay
Here is my first real Idea on how to make the siege module a real SIEGE module.
200% non-stacking bonus to weapon damage 50% Reduction in weapon Rate of Fire
Range Bonus X Tracking Bonus X Tanking Bonus X
2-3 minute counter.
Ta DA! Now you would have a siege tank.
OR!
You could do something like this:
20% Reduction in total damage 100% bonus to ROF 100% Bonus to Tracking...
Anti Aircraft gun?
OR!
In addition to the Siege Module, you also introduce the ability to fit a single capital ship weapon with an x2 damage modifier on it... only usable while in Siege Mode.
OR!
A unique weapon with battheship characteristics that shoots AOE munitions (Miniture bombs). You can dictate range (flight time) of the munition utilizing scripts or the shells themselves. 5 seconds, 10 seconds, 15 seconds, etc....
But really, Just dumping pure tank on us for going into triage mode, while abandoning all outside reps, is pointless and suicidal without a significant (serious) increase to our ability to kill stuff.
Leave the tank alone (T2 resists + 25% bonus to reps mayhap in and out of triage) - Give us a REASON to want to go full suicide. Give us a reason to gamble. Give us a cost justification for potentially sacrificing a 1 billion isk ship that's not a carrier. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:09:00 -
[2410] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:With the focus seeming to shift from Bastion optional to Bastion+MJD mandatory I'd argue that range would be highly prized. Blinking out 100km on a megapulse+scorch boat and still being viable is one of my hopes that remain intact at this point.
Eh, maybe, but I'd kind of like to see the focus shifted from Bastion as well. Half the fun of a massive tank is actually tanking things. If they're going to give us a MJD bonus and Bastion to go with it I'd rather have pure damage application on Bastion and the tanking bonuses on the hulls.
IMO this ties into what you said about the hulls not being defined by Bastion. |
|

Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:19:00 -
[2411] - Quote
can we please drop this stupid thread and start buffing the blops? I dont care about no stupid marauder aaaaye |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5749
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:21:00 -
[2412] - Quote
Evanga wrote:can we please drop this stupid thread and start buffing the blops? I dont care about no stupid marauder aaaaye Why not care about the marauder changes? The way I see it, if you don't currently use marauders you should definitely be interested in the changes, because you really should want a reason to use them.
I want a reason to use them. With the first iteration of the proposed changes I definitely would. Not so sure about this latest iteration. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:24:00 -
[2413] - Quote
120 pages....usually I read it but with the changes half way it seems futile so forgive me if someone has already suggested this.
From the bits I have caught (been dipping in and out of the thread) there seems to be a great deal of difficult in pleasing those PvP oriented players and the PvE players.
Has it been considered to have two modules, one bastion another $NAME which serve the respective different gameplay niches and only one can be fitted at once?
It would allow the devs more flexibility and remove some of the 'confusion' or 'identity crisis' around the hulls themselves. |

Relic124
TriFlexure Void-Legion
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:24:00 -
[2414] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
This update is going in the complete wrong direction.
I wholeheartedly agree with the need for these ships to have superior damage application (though less DPS) when compared to Pirate Battleships. But if the proposed web bonus is along that line of thinking, shouldn't you take a step back? The Kronos and Vargur both track well enough with a single Tracking Computer to hit anything cruiser and above in a gang skirmish, which these seem to be designed for. Only the Paladin has tracking issues, and that could be solved by simply replacing the 5% Capacitor-amount-per-level bonus with a standard 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking per level. This would very elegantly fit it as a design continuation of the Apocalypse, with its new dual bonuses to both optimal and tracking.
The Golem, the extremely lame duck of the group, might technically benefit from the effects of a strong webifier on a target, but it isn't worth losing another much-needed midslot in the process. At this point, the Golem would be obligated to dedicate TWO of its midslots to EWAR modules, which severely limits its tank compared to the other 3 Marauders. Either the Target Painting or new Web bonus has to go for this ship to compete with the others, and it should definitely be the latter of the two. It doesn't make sense for the Golem to effectively become a Minmatar EWAR ship at the expense of its survivability.
On that note, why should the armor rep amount / shield boost amount bonus should be replaced? The fact that these ships could tank high amounts of DPS while in Bastion was the damn point, right? They can't receive RR support, and they're weak to Energy Neutralizers (even the ASB tanks rely on active hardeners to work), so why remove the one bonus that is generally affected the most by Marauder's strongest counter? It seems to give both the Vargur and Golem something to work with, what with their precious midslots, one of which being used by a damage-application module. And it's common knowledge that even with the use of an Ancillary Armor Repairer, a Kronos's or Paladin's tank all but ends when it's neuted out. The inclusion of the previous active-tanking bonuses promotes intelligent counterplay, and on top of that, simply suits the ship class more.
Last but not least, it's obvious that these ships are designed for gang PVP. The affects of the Bastion module seem to point to that. But in the realm of gang pvp, why would a 1-billion-plus ISK battleship have a webifier bonus? Think about it: an 82.5%-strength web has little effect on a microwarpdriving enemy without a Warp Scrambler. But in every gang I've flown with, from a blob of destroyers and T2-fit Battlecruisers, all the way up to a mob of T3 Cruisers, Scramblers and Webs have always come hand-in-hand. Battlecruisers generally fit both a Web and a Scram in a gang fit. T3s specialize a bit more, admittedly, but a gang usually consists of the two types that get tackling bonuses - Lokis and Proteuses. If a Marauder is already obligated to fly with ships that already use both Webs and Scrams, why have it fit a Web at all? And beyond that, if there was ever a ship to be given a Web bonus without a need for one, why choose a class of Battleships, what with their slow lock time? Sure, a point could be made that these Marauder webs would only be supplementary to the initial tackle; that they'd simply be to keep the target as close to the locked-down Battleship as possible while the DPS is being applied. But stacking a strong web on top of one to three standard webs does extremely little, due to stacking penalties.
So. In the end, there is no philosophy of use for these Marauder webs.
Or, you know - tl;dr - I absolutely LOVE the changes guys. |

Tanik Fera
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:24:00 -
[2415] - Quote
Ok seriously now, I don't like the changes so far the role for maraders is a big fuzzy mess. I dont want marauders to be a jack of all trades, master of none. So I suggest leaving the role up to the person fitting their ship, get rid of these funky bonuses and go with something more traditional.
In true eve fashion make the bonuses like this:(add racial flavor as needed) B1- damage B2-projection B3- application B4- damage
T2 resists Revert the ships back to their old speed, drone bay/band width and health if possible. Better then average sensor strength If you think you need a web or target painter, that's fine, fit one. Don't strap an anchor to the hull by giving it a bonus for them.
Bastion McThingy- I know I want to see a transforming ship so lets keep that but change it to be more like a F14 fighter jet(the wings fold back to go faster). The bastion will now give X-speed bonus. But while its active you lose X? 100% damage bonus? |

To mare
Advanced Technology
242
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:24:00 -
[2416] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:Hey - Okay
Here is my first real Idea on how to make the siege module a real SIEGE module.
200% non-stacking bonus to weapon damage 50% Reduction in weapon Rate of Fire
Range Bonus X Tracking Bonus X Tanking Bonus X
2-3 minute counter.
Ta DA! Now you would have a siege tank.
OR!
You could do something like this:
20% Reduction in total damage 100% bonus to ROF 100% Bonus to Tracking...
Anti Aircraft gun?
OR!
In addition to the Siege Module, you also introduce the ability to fit a single capital ship weapon with an x2 damage modifier on it... only usable while in Siege Mode.
OR!
A unique weapon with battheship characteristics that shoots AOE munitions (Miniture bombs). You can dictate range (flight time) of the munition utilizing scripts or the shells themselves. 5 seconds, 10 seconds, 15 seconds, etc....
But really, Just dumping pure tank on us for going into triage mode, while abandoning all outside reps, is pointless and suicidal without a significant (serious) increase to our ability to kill stuff.
Leave the tank alone (T2 resists + 25% bonus to reps mayhap in and out of triage) - Give us a REASON to want to go full suicide. Give us a reason to gamble. Give us a cost justification for potentially sacrificing a 1 billion isk ship that's not a carrier. 100% bonus to rof would mean infinite dps.... ignoring that a such massive dps boost would make all mission runners wet their pants just for thinking at how fast they can gank missions.
the additional module and transformation crap is bullshit give the ships a decent sensor strenght T2 resist same bonus on TQ and if we want a bit more (and a bil ship deserve a bit more) a 5th turret/launcher. this would make marauder good w/o the rubbish bastion thingie.
plus about the web bonus it might be a good idea on the armor tanking ships but its totally a wasted bonus ont the 2 shield tanking ships, would make much more sense to give a web range bonus to pally and kronos and warp scrambling range bonus to vargur and golem
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:39:00 -
[2417] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm really not terribly pleased with the latest iteration. Removal of the active rep bonus? Removal of the 30% nonstacking resists? Does the T2 resist change actually make up for that or does it fall short?
I like also how my question about stacking penalties was STILL unanswered.
At this point, I'm just crossing my fingers that they screw this up so much that they end up throwing the idea out the window all together. If not, I'll be selling both my marauders come winter expansion. This was questionable from the get-go, now it's just plain ridiculous. They need to stop trying to bandage the wound and just start over or this bastion thing is just gonna kill off marauders as a whole. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:42:00 -
[2418] - Quote
Relic124 wrote:Last but not least, it's obvious that these ships are designed for gang PVP. The affects of the Bastion module seem to point to that. But in the realm of gang pvp, why would a 1-billion-plus ISK battleship have a webifier bonus? Think about it: an 82.5%-strength web has little effect on a microwarpdriving enemy without a Warp Scrambler. But in every gang I've flown with, from a blob of destroyers and T2-fit Battlecruisers, all the way up to a mob of T3 Cruisers, Scramblers and Webs have always come hand-in-hand. Battlecruisers generally fit both a Web and a Scram in a gang fit. T3s specialize a bit more, admittedly, but a gang usually consists of the two types that get tackling bonuses - Lokis and Proteuses. If a Marauder is already obligated to fly with ships that already use both Webs and Scrams, why have it fit a Web at all? And beyond that, if there was ever a ship to be given a Web bonus without a need for one, why choose a class of Battleships, what with their slow lock time? Sure, a point could be made that these Marauder webs would only be supplementary to the initial tackle; that they'd simply be to keep the target as close to the locked-down Battleship as possible while the DPS is being applied. But stacking a strong web on top of one to three standard webs does extremely little, due to stacking penalties.
So. In the end, there is no philosophy of use for these Marauder webs.
Or, you know - tl;dr - I absolutely LOVE the changes guys.
So, I agree with everything else *except* this. This vastly under-estimates the effect that a speed reduction bonused web can have.
At 60% you're dropping a MWDing Battleships's speed from in the ballpark of 1,000m/s to ~400m/s. This is not that significant and they can still easily escape unless you have a prop mod or they have a scram.
The regular 90% webs bring this down to about 100m/s, at which point a fast T1 Battleship can catch them, 2 90% webs brings you down to less than 20m/s at which point you can almost be caught by a cloaked Titan. 
Two 82.5% webs brings you down to ~50m/s, which is still slow enough to be caught by anything that isn't also massively webbed. In-fact a Battleship that normally goes ~110m/s (like my Rokh, one of the slowest ships in the game) would still be able to catch you with a 60% web on it, going a blistering 66m/s 
So, yeah, speed bonused webs are hilariously powerful, especially in small gang fights, because of how stacking penalties work on normal webs.
For reference it takes four un-bonused webs to equal a single 90% web and you can, never reduce the overall speed of a ship with normal webs below ~91% with 60% webs. |

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:43:00 -
[2419] - Quote
To mare wrote: Said Stuff - 100% bonus is infinite damage.... other stuff....
I meant a doubling of firing speed (Cutting the time between shots in half).
If you've been keeping up, I've been hollering for the Muraders to stay pretty close to what they are now. I agree that they should get their T2 resists, but not at the expense of their current rep bonuses. I would be estatic if they got both. But I want them to have that bonus OUTIDE of this triage module - I personally don't think this triage module (In its current form) justify's the suicide commitment for entering it (even as brief as it is).
I'm trying to throw ideas out there to help incentivize a player to actually use it. Just giving us bonus tank and meh range for sacrificing a billion isk Battle Ship doesn't make sense when compared to the larger, healthier triage carriers that do the same thing for about the same price.
Bastion needs to give us a REASON and a unique sub capital role for going all turtle. They are trying to make a siege tank, so give us some serious DPS output for risking our ships. This would definitely make "Sieging" up a very dicey, and very balanced method for putting a Murader into PVP, and even sieging it up in PVE combat situations.
I'm trying to give the CCP crew a better direction to reach their intended goal.
But I still want the siege module secondary to just keeping my basic Murader. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:45:00 -
[2420] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
ok this better for the paladin. I'm still not thrilled with the nerfed drone bay/bandwidth, but i can live with that.
Still you really need to give it better sensor str, like 20 radar(same as the t1 hull most t2's are +-3 of the t1 hull) and make the tractor bonus the same as the noctis 60% / lvl so that it reaches at least as far as we shooting in bastion. The marauders don't get salvage bonuses so this tractor distance wouldn't be OP to have on it given the new projection.
i can dream that the 5% per level capacitor amarr bs bonus gets flat baked into the hull with capacitor just flat gets upgraded another 25% and that bonus gets replaced with dmg, tracking, or something else. but that might be OP.
I look forward to testing this version or later revisions using bastion on the test server.
|
|

Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Polarized.
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:48:00 -
[2421] - Quote
It's crazy how little faith CCP have in their design ability. It's almost as if they don't focus group this crap before they release it to us.
These ships are now a direct competitor to the pirate faction BSs which I though was what they were trying to avoid. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:49:00 -
[2422] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:ok this better for the paladin. I'm still not thrilled with the nerfed drone bay/bandwidth, but i can live with that.
Still you really need to give it better sensor str, like 20 radar(same as the t1 hull most t2's are +-3 of the t1 hull) and make the tractor bonus the same as the noctis 60% / lvl so that it reaches at least as far as we shooting in bastion. The marauders don't get salvage bonuses so this tractor distance wouldn't be OP to have on it given the new projection.
i can dream that the 5% per level capacitor amarr bs bonus gets flat baked into the hull with capacitor just flat gets upgraded another 25% and that bonus gets replaced with dmg, tracking, or something else. but that might be OP.
I look forward to testing this version or later revisions using bastion on the test server.
I would not count on this version being the one that hits the test server. You missed about 20 pages of yelling back and forth with the PvE crowd basically booing this iteration off the stage (and for good reason, it's worse for them than the previous one). |

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:55:00 -
[2423] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm really not terribly pleased with the latest iteration. Removal of the active rep bonus? Removal of the 30% nonstacking resists? Does the T2 resist change actually make up for that or does it fall short?
I like also how my question about stacking penalties was STILL unanswered.
Where T2 resist do, in any case, fail is at hull resists. 72% hull omni hull resists with damage control and Bastion would have been kinda nice.
- - - - -
The problem that I see with CCP's approach to Marauders is a certain lack of creativity and out-of-the-box thinking. CCP kind of wants them to walk the treaded paths. But there are a lot of ships on these paths, so I don't really see them carving out a proper niche for themselves.
Maybe a more ... inspired approach would be more suitable:
The "Juggernaut"-Marauder, exemplied on the Paladin
Role Bonus: 100% to Large Energy Turret damage; 350% to Large Remote Armor Repair System Range
Amarr Battleship Bonus:
5% to Large Energy Turret Damage per level (seriously CCP, damage bonus on 'Marauders' is downright mean) 7.5% to Large Energy Turret Optimal Range per level
Marauders Bonus:
+8m-¦ Capacitor Booster Capacity per level +5% Capacitor Capacity per level
Other stats like in the OP.
And now to the Bastion-Mod:
-50% Large Energy Turret, Large Hybrid Turret, Large Projectile Turret, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage -50% damage of all Drones -60% velocity (a subcap that is standing still is more often than not a dead subcap, CCP) Disallows capacitor transfer to the ship
+200% Large Remote Armor Repairer repair amount Immune to EWAR
And while this concept seems pretty much OP (which, to a certain extent, it is, megarepair Paladin/Kronos of Doom and stuff), one must consider that a large group of Marauders will almost certainly face some serious obstacles, be it that a fleet of 1B ships in k-space will invariably attract larger fish (unless you are PL ) or WH mass limitations making moving a large group of battleships a headache. |

Lucidia fern
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:56:00 -
[2424] - Quote
 This latest revision of the changes does not look good. You are effectively taking away from the marauders original role as the PVE boat for missions and not giving it much back.
If you choose not to use the bastion module then your marauder will have lost the following : rep bonus most of your drones some of the web bonus (that nobody uses in L4's) base speed
The first iteration made the ship worth flying, this iteration actually risks reducing marauder use further if its not a hit in pvp. And if you think i'm dropping bastion in level 4 worlds collide or AE with how far you have to travel , lol NO!
TL:DR : I'd rather you nerf the effectiveness of the bastion module instead of the effectiveness of the base ship. You run less risk of forcing the ship into a set use pattern and leave experimentation available
|

Zilero
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 07:58:00 -
[2425] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
So let me get this straight:
You are:
a) Totally removing the tanking capability of Marauders when not in bastion mode (yeah, T2 resists are lower than a full 37.5% boost increase!) making them "yet another ship meant for fleets with logistics" instead of something viable where you could use your bastion module once in a while.
b) Adding in VELOCITY web bonuses (NOT! range) AND keeping the RANGE bonus to weapons.
Seriously, who came up with this? Range bonus to weapons AND a web velocity bonus? It makes no sense at all.
Good riddance, yet another T2 ship class destroyed - will there be any T2 hulls worth flying soon? (in terms of isk/hull performance compared to T1).
Edit: First iteration was fine - I was not particularly pleased, but meh it was OK. This iteration is DOWNRIGHT HORRIBLE. Please CCP, get a grip. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:04:00 -
[2426] - Quote
Zilero wrote:So let me get this straight:
You are:
a) Totally removing the tanking capability of Marauders (yeah, T2 resists are lower than a full 37.5% boost increase!) making them "yet another ship meant for fleets with logistics".
b) Adding in VELOCITY web bonuses (NOT! range) AND keeping the RANGE bonus to weapons.
Seriously, who came up with this? Range bonus to weapons AND a web bonus? It makes no sense at all.
Good riddance, yet another T2 ship class destroyed - will there be any T2 hulls worth flying soon? (in terms of isk/hull performance compared to T1).
Edit: First iteration was fine - I was not particularly pleased, but meh it was OK. This iteration is DOWNRIGHT HORRIBLE. Please CCP, get a grip.
The biggest threat the devs can ever make is to give the player-base exactly what they ask for. 
Seriously though, calm down, we've got months. At this rate I figure this thread can break 300+ pages. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
175
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:08:00 -
[2427] - Quote
Well, sure do hope so, Cade... |

Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:09:00 -
[2428] - Quote
dexington wrote:I'm more then a little skeptical about the web bonus, especially on the kronos.
You're skeptical about it on the kronos?
How about the web bonus on the vargur? 'Here you go, have a bonus to a module that's going to cut into your tank, and by the way, if you were thinking of armor tanking it? You don't have the slots.' And now any tanking bonuses marauders had outside of bastion is gone, too.
Seriously, screw the web bonuses. They're ridiculous to begin with. You can't hit frigates? Drop some drones on 'em. You want to whine and moan for a bigger drone bay, go for it, but if all you're going to cry about is the web bonus? Buy a damned Vindicator and be done with it. The ship you're looking to fly is over there, it's a Pirate ship, and the second Battleship skill will take you less time and cost less than training up Marauders anyway.
But no no, we can't possibly only have one Megathron with a ridiculous web velocity bonus and extremely potent bonuses to its blasters, now can we? |

Zilero
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
91
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:20:00 -
[2429] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Zilero wrote:So let me get this straight:
You are:
a) Totally removing the tanking capability of Marauders (yeah, T2 resists are lower than a full 37.5% boost increase!) making them "yet another ship meant for fleets with logistics".
b) Adding in VELOCITY web bonuses (NOT! range) AND keeping the RANGE bonus to weapons.
Seriously, who came up with this? Range bonus to weapons AND a web bonus? It makes no sense at all.
Good riddance, yet another T2 ship class destroyed - will there be any T2 hulls worth flying soon? (in terms of isk/hull performance compared to T1).
Edit: First iteration was fine - I was not particularly pleased, but meh it was OK. This iteration is DOWNRIGHT HORRIBLE. Please CCP, get a grip. The biggest threat the devs can ever make is to give the player-base exactly what they ask for.  Seriously though, calm down, we've got months. At this rate I figure this thread can break 300+ pages.
I'm all good, just really amazed at the bad job done here. The MJD bonus is iffy and weird as well.
I have a specific char and account I use for flying marauders - if these changes go through as is, that char will most likely be sold and i'll give you one guess what will happen to the account (no, you can't have my stuff, I'll still be playing on other accounts). |

Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:21:00 -
[2430] - Quote
web bonus is not that bad.. yes this new Marauder is aimed to snipe but web can save you when you are tackled... With MJD immune to warp disrupter and bubbles, and heavy indicators could be easily hit when using script the only thing that stops Marauder from jumping is scram, which is shorter than the web range.
having a web velocity bonus actually should help alot. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
168
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:25:00 -
[2431] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:The biggest threat the devs can ever make is to give the player-base exactly what they ask for. 
(cough) Heavy Assault Cruisers (cough, hack) ... (cough) Command Cruisers (cough, hack, gasp) ... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:33:00 -
[2432] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Shantetha wrote:ok this better for the paladin. I'm still not thrilled with the nerfed drone bay/bandwidth, but i can live with that.
Still you really need to give it better sensor str, like 20 radar(same as the t1 hull most t2's are +-3 of the t1 hull) and make the tractor bonus the same as the noctis 60% / lvl so that it reaches at least as far as we shooting in bastion. The marauders don't get salvage bonuses so this tractor distance wouldn't be OP to have on it given the new projection.
i can dream that the 5% per level capacitor amarr bs bonus gets flat baked into the hull with capacitor just flat gets upgraded another 25% and that bonus gets replaced with dmg, tracking, or something else. but that might be OP.
I look forward to testing this version or later revisions using bastion on the test server. I would not count on this version being the one that hits the test server. You missed about 20 pages of yelling back and forth with the PvE crowd basically booing this iteration off the stage (and for good reason, it's worse for them than the previous one).
oh i am aware it's weaker for missioning and slightly weaker for incursions(in dmg due to drone nerf. ) but i like the idea that it's useful at close and longer ranges, basically letting you change up the play style on the fly.
i really want to like bastion but I still think the issue with bastion is 100% removal of RR, make it a partial like 50-75% reduction in RR effectiveness.
you're prob right though cade, anyways it'll be interesting to see how it winds up on sisi. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
131
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:34:00 -
[2433] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:(cough) Heavy Assault Cruisers (cough, hack) ... (cough) Command Cruisers (cough, hack, gasp) ...
No, I actually quite like the new HACs and Command Ships. Those were well thought out and have a good theme and set of bonuses behind each.
This idea as it currently stands, however, seems to be the direct result of extensive player complaints. Ytterbium responded basically by making a quick pass and essentially gave the complaining people exactly what they asked for. Web bonus is back with a vengeance (and on every ship) and they have full T2 resists.
Now there's even more complaining from all corners.
Zilero wrote:I'm all good, just really amazed at the bad job done here. The MJD bonus is iffy and weird as well.
I have a specific char and account I use for flying marauders - if these changes go through as is, that char will most likely be sold and i'll give you one guess what will happen to the account (no, you can't have my stuff, I'll still be playing on other accounts).
The MJD bonus was first brought up by some players in the HAC threads as a more inventive role for the ships. Personally I'm glad they didn't do it on the HACs because it doesn't fit them very well because cruisers are innately faster than Battleships by a large margin and therefore don't need a MJD.
On these I don't mind it. It's already seeing a ton of use in Missions anyway. What I mind is the split between range that the MJD and Bastion emphasize, and the tankyness of the ships, web bonuses, ect that would seem to emphasize short-ranged combat.
Don't get me wrong, the MJD would be fantastic for closing distances on mission-rats with short-range guns. But at that point you don't really need the range bonus.
Also there's the issue of mid-slot EWar bonuses on Shield Tanked ships without the slots to support them.
Plus I've made my argument against velocity bonused webs a few times already, after running the numbers I'd much rather see range bonused ones. Better for incursions with the Warfare Link changes, lets you better hold cruisers out at blap-ranges, and is less OP for PvP in general since it doesn't make you immune to small ships, just somewhat resistant. |

Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:35:00 -
[2434] - Quote
C`mon guys srsly who the **** is thinking this patches and changes ...r they fucken ********? leave the bonus to REP and WEB ..1 cant function witouth another ..then add a bonus to dmg like 10% insteed of 5 and on the last bonus put what u guys want but this 3 must be there on kronos + paladin ..on golem ..a web bonus ? srsly ? after i read that my iq droped 50% ..golem should get a rate of fire bonus thats what it needs ..also leave the 7.5 % bonus to shield boost ..and on vargur as well ..vargur doesent need web it shield tanks ..all the med slots will go for tank ..in conclusion Paladin : 7.5 armor rep / 10% dmg / 10% bonus to velocity @ webs / ccp choses 4th bonus .. Kronos : 7.5 armor rep / 10% dmg /10% bonus to velocity @ webs / ccp choses 4th bonus .. Golem : 7.5 shield rep / 10% cruise , torpedo rof / 10% exp velocity / 10% target paint radius ...or change target paint to missile velocity / exp radius w/e Vargur : 7.5 shield rep / 10% dmg to large projectiles / 10% tracking/ 10% faloff
And give bastion module a dmg bonus ..and remove the speed penalty or cut in half We dont need a better cerbear ship we need a better pvp ship u not taking into fact that u BOOSTED tank's and reps ..but u left the dps on ships the same ..so now u cant kill someone Also boost theire sensor str8 ..i mean is a t2 bs ffs not a frigate Think outside the box ccp stop making stupid patches everybody is getting sick and tired of this **** tbh ..if you dont belive me check how many 2003-2007 chars are still active |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
624
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:37:00 -
[2435] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
In the CCP Ytterbium spirit of posting youtube links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IkMPZ7WeDck#t=152 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
131
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:39:00 -
[2436] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:oh i am aware it's weaker for missioning and slightly weaker for incursions(in dmg due to drone nerf. ) but i like the idea that it's useful at close and longer ranges, basically letting you change up the play style on the fly.
i really want to like bastion but I still think the issue with bastion is 100% removal of RR, make it a partial like 50-75% reduction in RR effectiveness.
you're prob right though cade, anyways it'll be interesting to see how it winds up on sisi.
I think Bastion would be fine if it just gave niche bonuses and wasn't required for the ship to tank missions effectively. Move the local repair bonus onto the hull and make Bastion something like an Adaptive Armor Hardener that penalizes other modules or something (or base resists, I dunno).
This makes it solidly a PvE module that should only have very niche PvP applications while allowing the ships themselves to function in Incursions and PvP with their high tank and solid damage application while not having overall higher damage than the Pirate Battleships or as much maneuverability or PvP focus as the Black Ops.
Plus long webs instead of powerful ones would make them better able to function in incursions without making them able to insta-pop any frigate or cruiser they catch in PvP. |

Damage Sponge
Team Bullet Sponge
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:41:00 -
[2437] - Quote
To help clarify how powerful tech 2 resist are and their effect over a 37.5% local boost.
I've EFT warriored with HAC resists to give some scenarios of the insane tanks achievable utilizing a large Rep/booster and 2 resists/hardeners and compared them to the existing Marauders.
The benefits to received RR reps and EHP also cant be under estimated.
The only Ship to suffer in a Solo PVE environment with the resist buff is the Paladin against Blood/Sansha, however its performance in wormholes and incursion is now far superior
Paladin
Amarr HAC resist Armor 50,35,62.5,80
1x large armor Rep t2 1x em hardener t2 1x therm hardener t2
50%Em/50%Therm damage profile
New Tank=435 Old Tank=316
Vargur
Minimatar HAC resists shield 75,60,40,50
1x large shield Booster t2 1x adaptive Invun t2 1x adaptive Invun t2
uniform damage profile
New Tank=446 Old Tank=330
Minimatar HAC resist armor 90.67.5.25.10
1x large armor Rep 1x em hardener T2 1x therm hardener T2
50%Em/50%Therm damage profile
New Tank= 855!!! Old Tank= 160
Kronos
Gallente HAC resist armor 50, 67.5, 85, 50
1x large armor rep t2 1x kinetic hardener t2 1x therm hardener t2
50%Kinetic/50%Therm damage profile
New Tank= 746 Old Tank= 475
Gallente HAC resist Shield 0, 60, 85, 50
1x large shield booster t2 1x thermal hardener t2 1x kinetic hardener t2
50%Kinetic/50%Therm damage profile
New Tank= 595 Old Tank= 315
Golem
Calari HAC resist Shield 0, 80, 70, 50
1x large shield booster t2 1x thermal hardener t2 1x kinetic hardener t2
50%Kinetic/50%Therm damage profile
New Tank= 542 Old Tank= 434
|

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
348
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:42:00 -
[2438] - Quote
I think the T2 resist profile is a better solution because it gives the ship something for PvP, where remote reps are used and mobility is important. The first iteration of the ship was a PvE only piece of trash and people were applauding it because they wanted to tank level 4's with 2 slot tanks.
I think there's a lot of room for improvement still, specifically in working out the discord in abilities and bonuses, but I think the new iteration is much better designed even if it doesn't make PvE even easier than the first proposal.
I do think the golem is in a wierd position with both a target painer bonus and a web bonus though. Keep one, ditch the other, and give it a more interesting bonus on the marauder skill (torpedo velocity? explosion radius? Livestock bonus cargo for all the exotic dancers and prostitutes?). |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:43:00 -
[2439] - Quote
Om my, over 20 pages of through the night rage, I even finished my morning coffee reading them over.
Thoughts, transforming or not the new paladin is made of FAIL.
Web bonus, for PvE, outside of incursions -> pointless.
I hope Rise or Fozzie is doing the Pirate BS changes cos these changes are terrible.
What started out looking like a fresh idea, a brave new approach now looks like an incremental improvement with all the same standard things we've come to expect. BORING
Can i suggest 2 bastion modules.
Incursion bastion module -> when activated your ship enters indestructible god mode, mass = 0, speed = infinite, web range increases by 5000%
Standard bastion module -> as it was in version 1.0
Just as well I hadn't trained anything specific to marauders just yet. |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:50:00 -
[2440] - Quote
What I'm lacking to see is what CCP want marauders to actually do and what their changes will actually do to move marauders into the best place for this. In my opinion there's no need to buff the performance for lvl 4 missions with the bastion mode, but it would make sense for low sec/0.0 sites to be able to tank more - at the risk of being caught. It's an easy trade, either don't use bastion mode and be able to gtfo or activate it and hope you won't get scrammed.
So my suggestion would be, go ahead with the T2 resists, the webbing bonus is still a very good thing, although it doesnt make much sense on the Golem, rather give it a stronger TP bonus or an explosion velocity bonus - because torps suck. With those boni a marauder should be in a good spot anyway, don't forget many people like to use this ship with tractor + salvager to be able to do stuff without a noctis while running the site.
For the siege mode - apparently CCP is reluctant to give DPS boni, which is fine if they want to boost the tanking/damage application and not make it a mini-dread. I'd say include the local repping bonus in the bastion mode to the current bonus - but increase sig radius in the bastion mode. This way it's easy as **** to scan the marauder down and have a decent downside of it.
When I think of a "bastion" mode I think of structures we encounter in the final rooms of DED sites - you know the things that rep so much dps that any of us thinks... must...have...this...repper. And with this focus on tank you could rebalance the faction battleships for mobility and high damage
P.S.: If you tackle marauders, take a look at the torps, too. |
|

Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:52:00 -
[2441] - Quote
Just posting to say this is a bad overhaul. For my Paladin it feels as a kick in the teeth. No synergy between the bonusses of the hull, the new resist are useless (i'm supposed to move over to Angel space now or what?) and last time i checked nobody likes being stuck somewhere.
Keep your hands off the Marauders and let me keep my armor rep bonus and i'll manage. |

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
252
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:55:00 -
[2442] - Quote
Like many others I too am confused by the recent changes. I can understand the freakout over being able to solo tank the first wave of a Vanguard. That is a bit OP'd. But what is the point of removing the original rep bonus and keeping the new Bastion? Wouldn't it just be better to just dump the Bastion and give the ship the T2 resists?
Cuz this new Bastion idea ain't so hot. You are immobile which is usually a death sentence in PvP, and this new version doesn't have the crazy tank to offset the immobility. For Bastion to work it either needs that crazy tank back (which is obviously a problem for PvE), or it needs a DPS boost to kill off the baddies before they kill you. But just "immobility + great tank" is still gonna equal death. Especially if you can't pull RR. To offset the immobility, you need "crazy tank" or "great tank + great dps".
Also the mish-mash of Range and Tanking in general seems kinda weird. At first I was okay with it cuz of the crazy tank. But without that, it does give one pause. The range bonuses allow for great distance - 100km Scorch is fantastic. But if I'm at 50+km I'm usually not overly worried about tanking. (Unless it's a fleet fight, but in that case tank is meaningless and it's about resists and buffer.) But now you are kinda stressing the short-range thing too with the web bonus, but at the expense of the repper bonus - which seems counter-intuitive. So it just seems odd that you are forcing the two styles together. Wouldn't it make more sense to combine the tanking with some sort of short-range bonus (like the web I guess) for situations when you are more likely to be taking heavy damage? Or keep the long-range bonus and combine that with something that more closely compliments a sniper role? Hell! Make two different types of Bastion module, one for each play-style so nobody can throw a fit. |

Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:01:00 -
[2443] - Quote
saw many people complaining... I believe these changes do have internal logic with them and pointed directly towards one direction.
First with PVE. You are better anyway with the new Bastion module so please don't complain about PVE anymore Even without the new module, the resist shift should helps even with the removal of rep bonus. Well maybe only for certain ways of PVE.
For PVP These ship cost alot, like T3, so if you want to use it you have to make sure you lose less frequently. All the changes seems to provide a way of survive.
You have range for your weapons so you could MJD away from the main battlefield, maybe not for golem, which is critisized lol. You have MJD to reach to that range, and even more powergrid to fit long range weapons. You have extreamly high self repping power (may be not after the Bastion module change, but still very high) And you can actually run your rep with guns for more than 1 min even in a Paladin, beam fitted. You have MJD which is immune to bubbles and warp distrupter, and the cool down is reduced to 56 seconds to fits with the Bastion. You have velocity bonused webs that deal with small ships with scrams (that is shorter than web range). You could deal with heavy indicators, and even not, there are not going to be 10 HIs in a normal 50 people fleet.
So idealy, you could jump in (even not at range), MJD away to a place you like. Shoot everything within your range, take care of the ships with scram in the last 10 seconds with velocity bonus webs, while tanking with a 8000-9000 defence if someone is hitting you. when the Bastion module is off the MJD could start again. While considering the field situation and other factors the fleet commander could choose to MJD away and warp or MJD away and start the Bastion again.
I know this seems too theoretical but in the current fleet combat, bubbles are the main way to stop the opponent but not scram. so MJD could have a great performence. I belive these new Marauder would be useful when 50-100 people is on grid.
EDIT Yes the tank need to be better. I prefer the 30% non stacking resist bonus on the module, not T2 resist, which makes them good at tanking some damage but sucks on others. |

Jungleland Roy
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:06:00 -
[2444] - Quote
Ok Balance Team - listen up
You guys just lost some respect. You are supposed to be looking at the big picture here and have a long term vision of what the new ship balances achieve and not be trying stuff on a whim. Every balance change you make is going to annoy somebody - it's inevitable and part of your job. But the big picture and your vision is what matters for the long term future.
So you came up with a new, exciting and tbh "out of left field" module which would have opened up new and challenging opportunities for players. Good Job.
You then receive some whining from the incursion running community and then after an office discussion you rip the guts out of your original idea. Seriously?
To me that means either you really didn't have a view of where these ships fit in with the long term picture of Eve OR you just caved to a minority community because they whined on the forum and wouldn't adapt. TBH I don't know which is sadder.
-1
Roy if you could fly it before, you can fly it now.-á Read the Blog.
|

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:08:00 -
[2445] - Quote
Jack C Hughes wrote:saw many people complaining... I believe these changes do have internal logic with them and pointed directly towards one direction.
First with PVE. You are better anyway with the new Bastion module so please don't complain about PVE anymore Even without the new module, the resist shift should helps even with the removal of rep bonus. Well maybe only for certain ways of PVE.
For PVP These ship cost alot, like T3, so if you want to use it you have to make sure you lose less frequently. All the changes seems to provide a way of survive.
You have range for your weapons so you could MJD away from the main battlefield, maybe not for golem, which is critisized lol. You have MJD to reach to that range, and even more powergrid to fit long range weapons. You have extreamly high self repping power (may be not after the Bastion module change, but still very high) And you can actually run your rep with guns for more than 1 min even in a Paladin, beam fitted. You have MJD which is immune to bubbles and warp distrupter, and the cool down is reduced to 56 seconds to fits with the Bastion. You have velocity bonused webs that deal with small ships with scrams (that is shorter than web range). You could deal with heavy indicators, and even not, there are not going to be 10 HIs in a normal 50 people fleet.
So idealy, you could jump in (even not at range), MJD away to a place you like. Shoot everything within your range, take care of the ships with scram in the last 10 seconds with velocity bonus webs, while tanking with a 8000-9000 defence if someone is hitting you. when the Bastion module is off the MJD could start again. While considering the field situation and other factors the fleet commander could choose to MJD away and warp or MJD away and start the Bastion again.
I know this seems too theoretical but in the current fleet combat, bubbles are the main way to stop the opponent but not scram. so MJD could have a great performence. I belive these new Marauder would be useful when 50-100 people is on grid.
For PVP - why use such an expensive hull? For big fleet engagements it won't work, it's too expensive and nobody would SRP it - plus the bastion mode doesn't support remote repping, which means you're dead anyway if 100x enemy BS primary you. For small fleet engagements - any decent small roam has enough scrams to pin you down and at very close range you wont be able to hit **** with the marauder, no matter what. T1 BS aren't that much worse with a way lower price tag and the faction BS will still do a better job at it than the marauders, plus they'll be cheaper (if cheap can come to mind when talking about faction bs/marauders).
The primary goal of marauders is pve and this is why we're discussing it, it is supposed to work in that environment and if CCP is currently taking a look at it - yeah then people will try to show weaknesses or other approaches in order to get the best out of it. It's not always plain complaining but useful discussion to get the best compromise. |

Lixia Saran
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:12:00 -
[2446] - Quote
Three things:
1. The first iteration was better, more original and more fun.
2. The ships seem to be all over the place now. Web bonuses that don't fit with MJD / Bastion Projection, really weird resist profiles that are clearly better on some marauders vice others. Total lack of direction.
3. This 180degree turnaround / unfocused change gives me a sour taste in the mouth as I lost confidence that you guys have an actual mid/long-term plan as to what the various ship classes should be balanced for.
4. (you know when I said I had 3 things; I lied) T2 Rokh hull please (Bonus points if it transforms) |

Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:17:00 -
[2447] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote:Jack C Hughes wrote:saw many people complaining... I believe these changes do have internal logic with them and pointed directly towards one direction.
First with PVE. You are better anyway with the new Bastion module so please don't complain about PVE anymore Even without the new module, the resist shift should helps even with the removal of rep bonus. Well maybe only for certain ways of PVE.
For PVP These ship cost alot, like T3, so if you want to use it you have to make sure you lose less frequently. All the changes seems to provide a way of survive.
You have range for your weapons so you could MJD away from the main battlefield, maybe not for golem, which is critisized lol. You have MJD to reach to that range, and even more powergrid to fit long range weapons. You have extreamly high self repping power (may be not after the Bastion module change, but still very high) And you can actually run your rep with guns for more than 1 min even in a Paladin, beam fitted. You have MJD which is immune to bubbles and warp distrupter, and the cool down is reduced to 56 seconds to fits with the Bastion. You have velocity bonused webs that deal with small ships with scrams (that is shorter than web range). You could deal with heavy indicators, and even not, there are not going to be 10 HIs in a normal 50 people fleet.
So idealy, you could jump in (even not at range), MJD away to a place you like. Shoot everything within your range, take care of the ships with scram in the last 10 seconds with velocity bonus webs, while tanking with a 8000-9000 defence if someone is hitting you. when the Bastion module is off the MJD could start again. While considering the field situation and other factors the fleet commander could choose to MJD away and warp or MJD away and start the Bastion again.
I know this seems too theoretical but in the current fleet combat, bubbles are the main way to stop the opponent but not scram. so MJD could have a great performence. I belive these new Marauder would be useful when 50-100 people is on grid. For PVP - why use such an expensive hull? For big fleet engagements it won't work, it's too expensive and nobody would SRP it - plus the bastion mode doesn't support remote repping, which means you're dead anyway if 100x enemy BS primary you. For small fleet engagements - any decent small roam has enough scrams to pin you down and at very close range you wont be able to hit **** with the marauder, no matter what. T1 BS aren't that much worse with a way lower price tag and the faction BS will still do a better job at it than the marauders, plus they'll be cheaper (if cheap can come to mind when talking about faction bs/marauders). The primary goal of marauders is pve and this is why we're discussing it, it is supposed to work in that environment and if CCP is currently taking a look at it - yeah then people will try to show weaknesses or other approaches in order to get the best out of it. It's not always plain complaining but useful discussion to get the best compromise.
Yeah but when T3 came out everybody says that no one is going to pvp with them, they are too expensive and loosing them would cost skill points. but that is not true.
When you know you are facing 100 BS you should not engage! please bear in mind MJD should save the fleet when 100 bs come down on top of you. if you are facing long range HACs, their dps should be tankable. there is only a few HACs could hit over 100km, while long ranged new Marauder could do 200km with PG for long range weapons. If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it.
As I said the Maraduer should have higher tank, they should be able to reach 10000+ tank to deal with the dps.
And the primary goal of marauders.. That what ccp is trying to change here. The primary goal of Amargeddon was dps and now its a neut boat. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:21:00 -
[2448] - Quote
CCP I love your concepts but here you clearly don't know what role a marauder should have.
1) If you wanted to improve current marauders for PvP than:
Increase sensor strenght, give T2 resists, no bastion module, give more drones, moblility etc.
2) If you want PvE lvl 4 mission kings than:
Your initial proposition was right on spot (almost).
3) What u actually did:
Made a ship with contradicting roles (sniper/brawler, stationary/mobile, pve focused/pvp focused, passive tanked/active tanked), contradicting bonuses (range/web, bastion/mjd) and no advantages in either.
Dear CCP tell us what exact, specialised role u want for this ship and we tell you what we want. Now you have a ship that on paper can do a lot, but in practice is outclassed by ships that are just great at what they were designed to do.
My opinion: For PvP Pirate BS should be DPS kings, Marauders should be Tank kings. PvP Tank kings (resisatance, buffer, remote rep, no bastion). This should be theier role - outsurvive anything else. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
131
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:22:00 -
[2449] - Quote
Lixia Saran wrote:4. (you know when I said I had 3 things; I lied) T2 Rokh hull please (Bonus points if it transforms)
On that note...
Kaalakiota Rokh
Ishukone Rokh
Mordus Rokh
Kinda hoping for these as Mordu's/Black Ops hulls though, not Marauders. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
105
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:36:00 -
[2450] - Quote
Besides Balance Problems where the hell did a Web Bonus and Bastion Module fit into their Name?
Marauder = fast and aggressiv Bastion (+ Web) = immobil and persistent
You can tweek around like crazy CCP but you Never will find a Good Solution!
(And yes i love Bastion Modulthingie) |
|

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:37:00 -
[2451] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
I see, we're gettting a nerf now? Thanks, buddy. You had it right and now you're going to ruin it. |

David Kir
Tailender
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:38:00 -
[2452] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
And with that, you've lost me. |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:41:00 -
[2453] - Quote
Jack C Hughes wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote:Jack C Hughes wrote:saw many people complaining... I believe these changes do have internal logic with them and pointed directly towards one direction.
First with PVE. You are better anyway with the new Bastion module so please don't complain about PVE anymore Even without the new module, the resist shift should helps even with the removal of rep bonus. Well maybe only for certain ways of PVE.
For PVP These ship cost alot, like T3, so if you want to use it you have to make sure you lose less frequently. All the changes seems to provide a way of survive.
You have range for your weapons so you could MJD away from the main battlefield, maybe not for golem, which is critisized lol. You have MJD to reach to that range, and even more powergrid to fit long range weapons. You have extreamly high self repping power (may be not after the Bastion module change, but still very high) And you can actually run your rep with guns for more than 1 min even in a Paladin, beam fitted. You have MJD which is immune to bubbles and warp distrupter, and the cool down is reduced to 56 seconds to fits with the Bastion. You have velocity bonused webs that deal with small ships with scrams (that is shorter than web range). You could deal with heavy indicators, and even not, there are not going to be 10 HIs in a normal 50 people fleet.
So idealy, you could jump in (even not at range), MJD away to a place you like. Shoot everything within your range, take care of the ships with scram in the last 10 seconds with velocity bonus webs, while tanking with a 8000-9000 defence if someone is hitting you. when the Bastion module is off the MJD could start again. While considering the field situation and other factors the fleet commander could choose to MJD away and warp or MJD away and start the Bastion again.
I know this seems too theoretical but in the current fleet combat, bubbles are the main way to stop the opponent but not scram. so MJD could have a great performence. I belive these new Marauder would be useful when 50-100 people is on grid. For PVP - why use such an expensive hull? For big fleet engagements it won't work, it's too expensive and nobody would SRP it - plus the bastion mode doesn't support remote repping, which means you're dead anyway if 100x enemy BS primary you. For small fleet engagements - any decent small roam has enough scrams to pin you down and at very close range you wont be able to hit **** with the marauder, no matter what. T1 BS aren't that much worse with a way lower price tag and the faction BS will still do a better job at it than the marauders, plus they'll be cheaper (if cheap can come to mind when talking about faction bs/marauders). The primary goal of marauders is pve and this is why we're discussing it, it is supposed to work in that environment and if CCP is currently taking a look at it - yeah then people will try to show weaknesses or other approaches in order to get the best out of it. It's not always plain complaining but useful discussion to get the best compromise. Yeah but when T3 came out everybody says that no one is going to pvp with them, they are too expensive and loosing them would cost skill points. but that is not true. When you know you are facing 100 BS you should not engage! please bear in mind MJD should save the fleet when 100 bs come down on top of you. if you are facing long range HACs, their dps should be tankable. there is only a few HACs could hit over 100km, while long ranged new Marauder could do 200km with PG for long range weapons. If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it. As I said the Maraduer should have higher tank, they should be able to reach 10000+ tank to deal with the dps. And the primary goal of marauders.. That what ccp is trying to change here. The primary goal of Amargeddon was dps and now its a neut boat.
Have you ever been to large fleet fights? If you can't fight another BS doctrine, don't bring your own. The MJD is easily counterable if you bring scrams - as usual you adapt to what your enemy is fielding - if you know the deploy marauders you bring enough heavy tackle + something like a blaster/scram rokh fleet and melt them. And if you're going for long range engagement you need many DICs/HICs and hope the enemy fleet isn't MJD'ed aswell or they'll just escape.
I understand what you're trying to point out - but my point is, the marauder doesn't do the stuff so much better than T1 BS that it's worth investing that amount of isk and welping a marauder fleet will cripple you. And a T3 will cost you half the isk, provide you with way more mobility, versatility and tank due to sig tank + remote reps.
So yeah, it's nice to see that there are some changes made to make it more pvp-able, but the focus should be to have a coherent ship for a specific task. In this case it's about pve and well, it depends on what ccp wants the marauder to be good at and design it this way. This is why we're discussing here, if this ship was supposed to be good at PVP it would need some major changes - and to give it even more tank etc... get a blapdread. I don't want the marauder to be something in between but to fulfill a specific role that it specializes in - that's what tiericide is about. |

Szrapnell
True RoHiKaNs
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:43:00 -
[2454] - Quote
Change Bastion to DPS mode intead of tank - that's the best solution
2nd option go back to first rebalance and change 5% damage bonus on marauders for 10%, in bastion missile velo 50% |

Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:47:00 -
[2455] - Quote
Jack C Hughes wrote:If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it.
Scan time with a Scan Aquisition Array II is five seconds and we have custom probe formations now. Good luck!
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
170
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:47:00 -
[2456] - Quote
If these things are going to be brawlers, let's make them brawlers...
The main change here is that the vast majority of bonuses now only apply to short-range weapons (pulse lasers, torpedoes, blasters and autocannons), so while you can run long-range Marauder setups - they're not as advantageous as before. Bastion has been changed to reduce speed (as opposed to dropping to 0), increase agility, increase tracking and explosion radius, greatly increase rate of fire and drastically increase reload times. And it requires heavy water to run (no unlimited fortress).
Ship stats: no changes. Roll bonus: latest revision, with the addition of 50% to the effectiveness of target breakers
Paladin: GÇó Amarr: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity; 7.5% bonus to pulse laser optimal range GÇó Marauder: 5% bonus to large energy damage per level; 7.5% bonus to large energy weapon tracking per level
Golem: GÇó Caldari: 5% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity per level; 10% bonus to torpedo velocity GÇó Marauder: 7.5% bonus to explosion radius per level; 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
Kronos: GÇó Gallente: 5% bonus to blaster damage; 10% bonus to blaster falloff GÇó Marauder: 7.5% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level; 7.5% bonus to large hybrid tracking per level
Vargur: GÇó Minmatar: 5% bonus to autocannon rate of fire; 10% bonus to autocannon falloff GÇó Marauder: 10% bonus to effectiveness of sensor boosters; 7.5% bonus to large projectile tracking per level
Bastion: GÇó Cycle time of 60 seconds (consumes heavy water, TBD; 5% reduction per Marauder skill level) GÇó Increase shield and armor repair amount by 100% GÇó Increases pulse laser, blaster and autocannon optimal/falloff by 25% and tracking by 10% GÇó Increases torpedo velocity by 25% and torpedo explosion radius by 10% GÇó Increases pulse laser, torpedo, blaster and autocannon rate of fire by 50%; reload time increased by 100% GÇó Reduces ship velocity by 50%; increases ship agility by 50% I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:50:00 -
[2457] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Evanga wrote:can we please drop this stupid thread and start buffing the blops? I dont care about no stupid marauder aaaaye Why not care about the marauder changes? The way I see it, if you don't currently use marauders you should definitely be interested in the changes, because you really should want a reason to use them. I want a reason to use them. With the first iteration of the proposed changes I definitely would. Not so sure about this latest iteration. Hense my lurking here for days If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Gigi Barbagrigia
Digital Oddity
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:53:00 -
[2458] - Quote
Would it really be too much if you took Tier 1 BSs, build PvP Marauders from them; which would also let you keep them at more affordable prices and tweak existing T2s? On one hand you are selling roles' specialization and on the other you are trying to stretch existing ship's role. We've been around long enough to know how that ends  |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:56:00 -
[2459] - Quote
Nam Dnilb wrote:Jack C Hughes wrote:If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it. Scan time with a Scan Aquisition Array II is five seconds and we have custom probe formations now. Good luck!
Plus I want to see that kind of coalition that can field a maxed out (skillwise) marauder t2 large gunned fleet - they could bring something better with those skillpoints :P |

Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:57:00 -
[2460] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
Have you ever been to large fleet fights? If you can't fight another BS doctrine, don't bring your own. The MJD is easily counterable if you bring scrams - as usual you adapt to what your enemy is fielding - if you know the deploy marauders you bring enough heavy tackle + something like a blaster/scram rokh fleet and melt them. And if you're going for long range engagement you need many DICs/HICs and hope the enemy fleet isn't MJD'ed aswell or they'll just escape.
I understand what you're trying to point out - but my point is, the marauder doesn't do the stuff so much better than T1 BS that it's worth investing that amount of isk and welping a marauder fleet will cripple you. And a T3 will cost you half the isk, provide you with way more mobility, versatility and tank due to sig tank + remote reps.
So yeah, it's nice to see that there are some changes made to make it more pvp-able, but the focus should be to have a coherent ship for a specific task. In this case it's about pve and well, it depends on what ccp wants the marauder to be good at and design it this way. This is why we're discussing here, if this ship was supposed to be good at PVP it would need some major changes - and to give it even more tank etc... get a blapdread. I don't want the marauder to be something in between but to fulfill a specific role that it specializes in - that's what tiericide is about.
Yes I understand your point. Trying to conter certain ship will decrease the fleets ability to deal with others. If you bring something like a blaster rokh fleet you are putting yourself at risk- if others are bringing not only the Marauders but also HACs you are going to suffer. And can't fight another BS doctrine does not mean Marauders are useless. Bombers are not desined to fight assult frigs and this marauder might also not be designed to fight BS. They could do a good job fighting attact BCs, maybe HACs.
This new marauder is not going to be the main component of a fleet. And I agree BS could do better when used as the main force in a fleet. The advs of marauder decrease as the number of enemies increase. But have 30-40 of them on grid could be helpful. They could apply damage in long range, less likely to be catched, need speacial conter-measure, the scrams. Their MJD is always faster in time than other BS's.
I will define them in a role similar to the 8 smartbomb pipe bomb fleet. They are not going to attack enemy fleet head to head, instead they provide surprise.
|
|

Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:00:00 -
[2461] - Quote
Nam Dnilb wrote:Jack C Hughes wrote:If you are afraid of probs, I will tell you you should not worry too much. you need time to scan, to warp the fleet and to apply the dps. With 56 of WJD cooldown the new Marauder should have enough time to react to it. Scan time with a Scan Aquisition Array II is five seconds and we have custom probe formations now. Good luck!
no matter how fast is your scan, the fleet needs to warp. If a 100BS fleet is on short range scan but not on grid, why should marauder engage? That is simply silly. As silly as knowing there is capital ships waiting for you and you still jump your single carrier in. If not on short range scan you really need some time to warp to the feild. |

dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
778
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:02:00 -
[2462] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:dexington wrote:I'm more then a little skeptical about the web bonus, especially on the kronos. You're skeptical about it on the kronos? How about the web bonus on the vargur? 'Here you go, have a bonus to a module that's going to cut into your tank, and by the way, if you were thinking of armor tanking it? You don't have the slots.' And now any tanking bonuses marauders had outside of bastion is gone, too. Seriously, screw the web bonuses. They're ridiculous to begin with. You can't hit frigates? Drop some drones on 'em. You want to whine and moan for a bigger drone bay, go for it, but if all you're going to cry about is the web bonus? Buy a damned Vindicator and be done with it. The ship you're looking to fly is over there, it's a Pirate ship, and the second Battleship skill will take you less time and cost less than training up Marauders anyway. But no no, we can't possibly only have one Megathron with a ridiculous web velocity bonus and extremely potent bonuses to its blasters, now can we?
I don't know the other marauders very well, but i do own and occasionally fly a Kronos, but i can see what you mean about not wanting to give up tank to fit a web. But i think it goes beyond just shield tanking, i mean why not just fit a tracking computer which with scripts just seem more useful.
The main reason i particularly don't like the web bonus on the Kronos, is because the Vindicator already has the same ability, just with a better skill bonus. You have two ships with the same hull and close to the same price tag, one is just better then the other in every way that really matters.
I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |

Hayman Wakefield
Trans-Stellar Salvage Shipping and Securities
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:10:00 -
[2463] - Quote
Please let there be a 3rd iteration, this is just plain bizarre, taking the tanking bonuses that made the ships good in the first place and replacing it with some micky mouse web bonus on all the ships, just stop it. The T2 resists are horrible because they promptly open resist holes right where the ship's common faction rat damage type is meaning you have to use even more tanking modules.
They really just needed some fitting, speed, sensor and EHP love and maybe extending the tractor range to make it worthwhile against bringing a Noctis. Go back to the start look at the MJD idea and think about how you could turn them into MJD blipping (reactivation and spool up reductions); tanky ships with good damage projection, that concept would work pretty well in both PVE and PVP. These latest changes just makes me suspect your morning croissant is being spiked.
|

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:17:00 -
[2464] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Wouldn't it make more sense to combine the tanking with some sort of short-range bonus (like the web I guess) for situations when you are more likely to be taking heavy damage? Or keep the long-range bonus and combine that with something that more closely compliments a sniper role? Hell! Make two different types of Bastion module, one for each play-style so nobody can throw a fit.
Bing!
Bonus and DPS numbers would need to be adjusted and addressed, but here is a simplified revised "Murader" plan stamp.
Murader
Role Bonus: Can Fit Bastion Modules 100% Bonus to large X weapon system 100% bonus to tractor range
T2 Resistances
[Appropriate Grid / CPU rebalancing to fit 4 largest caliber guns, plus appropriate fitting]
BS Skill Bonus [Total bonus] +10 / 15 / +20% active rep bonus (2% / 3% or 4% per level) +25% bonus to large X weapon system (5% per level)
Murader Skill +37.5% Bonus to tracking / explosion velocity / Cap? (7.5% per level) +37.5% Bonus to range (Optimal / Falloff) (7.5% per level)
Web bonus is gone off the hull and moved to the Bastion Module "B"
Bastion Modules: Ship is Imobile Ship cannot warp Ship cannot jump or dock Ship cannot receive external assistance Ship is immune to ewar
Bastion Module A - "Long Tom"
Cycle time : 120 seconds
+200% (x3 multiplier) to damage +100% (0.5 multiplier penalty) to rate of fire +20% to optimal range (Fall off for minmitar) +10% bonus to tracking?
[This would double effective DPS at range and give significant drawbacks. It's like having permanent high powered T2 ammo grafted on your ship. But when it hits... ouchie]
Bastion Module B - "Berserker"
Cycle time: 60 Seconds
-20% penalty to damage -50% bonus to rate of fire (2x multiplier) +100% Bonus to tracking (explosion velocity / golem) + 50% bonus to stasis webber velocity (or web range) + 15% bonus to fall off (optimal for minmitar)
[And here we have our ultimate brawlers, for you auto cannon / blaster / pulse lazor / torpedo slingin hot shots. Shorter cycle time would allow for a pick and move moment as the fight unfolds]
This sort of set up would need a lot of tweaking to get the numbers right. But I think the essence is there. Murader Pilots keep the essence of their mission boats, while adding in the missing damage quotient and role niche they need at the cost of going kamakazi.]
This is fairly balanced, because the price you pay for locking yourself down is forgoing any GTFO moments and pure immobility. In PVE if your tank is failing not only do you have to wait for the triage mode to spool off, you then have to get momentum and align to save the ship. In PVP, if you go triage you have 60 seconds where a primary call from a significant force can kill you (Neuts or sheer alpha damage).
Might be something to seriously consider. -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Doc Buddy
Nomad Mining Company
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:31:00 -
[2465] - Quote
Not so sure about the whole sitting stationary in a level 4 with a marauder. I thought the point, and fun of them is to move around.
I also was under the impression that one of the main roles of the Marauder was the tractor bonus for salvaging on the fly. If you continue with the theme of salvaging a bonus to salvage drone speed would be nice.
For the most part they seem ok the way are now for PVE. It would be nice if they could put out a bit more dps.
All the talk in this thread about turning them into mini-dreads makes one think wouldnGÇÖt be easier to turn them into a pure PVP ship and have CCP tell CONCORD that Dreadnaughts/capitals are now legal in Hi-Sec?
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:38:00 -
[2466] - Quote
dexington wrote: The new kronos seem like a weak version of the vindicator, weak damage, no mobility and weak webs.
That is really shortsighted.
The Kronos got a couple drawbacks (weaker webs, smaller dronebay, less raw damage and weak sensors) but in advance, it got 4 utility highs, tech-II-resist, tracking and rangebonus, aswell as a reduced cooldown on MJDs.
I see a variet of situations where I'd rather want a kronos as it is propsed compared to a Windicator.
Though I'm totally ignoring pve, just looking at pvp-qualities. For small gang, the Kronos seems a whole lot more useful as currently proposed compared to the rather straight and narrow Vindi. Even losing a little raw damage.
Doc Buddy wrote: All the talk in this thread about turning them into mini-dreads makes one think wouldnGÇÖt be easier to turn them into a pure PVP ship and have CCP tell CONCORD that Dreadnaughts/capitals are now legal in Hi-Sec?
It's mostly that people complaining marauders becoming minidreads never flew one themselves. They make for as good minidreads as bombers make for an AB-web-scram-breacher. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:39:00 -
[2467] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:No, talking about missions where faction determines what type of damage you deal if you have the option to choose. To some extent it also determines where you're going to mission with a particular ship. When grinding in Amarr space quite often I had on offer missions against Angels, in Gallente space Blood Raiders and Sansha are quite common and bloody Drones are everywhere. Unless you cherry-pick missions you always have to be prepared to deal with every damage type.
Okay, Kronos and Golem can tank Serpentis/Guristas for free, but for anything else they have to be well prepared. While on Vargur I used to fit only one hardener for major profile and slapped invuln for good measure and it worked every time, epic arcs (all four) included.
They may like to but it's not what they are always given.
Quote:On top of this the Kronos and Golem both have high Kin and Therm resists which also makes up the vast majority of resisted damage in missions as well. So now we're looking at two ships that deal more effective damage AND can tank the rats for those types more effectively and two ships that have to pick. That SUCKS for the people who fly those two ships. And so there was I, who after long time flying Gallente ships had found Vargur's omni tank as a great relief. Look, I don't expect you to change your mind, and also I don't suppose you are able to bring argument changing mine. So let's maybe just agree that the issue is not as black-and-white as it looks on the first sight? |

To mare
Advanced Technology
244
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:39:00 -
[2468] - Quote
ithink they really deserve a 5th turret/missile launcher every marauder have less potential dps than one T1 BS of the same race |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:44:00 -
[2469] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you.
I suspect they'd have wepons which they can use to inflict pain on the other gang... Once you've dealt with the ewar ship that's cockblocking your gang. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

marVLs
398
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:46:00 -
[2470] - Quote
Maybe change bastion so when it activates all modules are overheated for 60seconds, when cycle ends they need to cooldown for some time (1min?) |
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
107
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:46:00 -
[2471] - Quote
The Real Problem is Marauder Theme, Bastion Modul, MJD Rolebonus and Web Bonus just wont fit together, its only a Giant expensive Mixed Bag... |

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
626
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:52:00 -
[2472] - Quote
This Marauder change has gone from "Great!" to "No thanks". Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:59:00 -
[2473] - Quote
Quote:[Kronos, huehuehue]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Internal Force Field Array I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Centii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Heavy Capacitor Booster II Large Micro Jump Drive
Dread Guristas Large Graviton Smartbomb Dread Guristas Large Graviton Smartbomb Dread Guristas Large Graviton Smartbomb Dread Guristas Large Graviton Smartbomb Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Trimark Armor Pump II
That just like that. Would be around 1.7bil at current prices. A Marauder with - before links - approximately 160k EHP and resistances slightly above your regular proteus. Can switch a web for eccm, but given that you'll most likely fly it together with some mates, might totally be unnecessary. Like that, tracking of 0.9/sec, 4km optimal, 16km falloff, 1100 dps, 160 dps from smartbombs. Using Void, 1300dps cold, 1500 hot. Not bad at all in my opinion atleast. Can also switch up to two smartbombs for heavy neuts, since you still got that much grid :>
Funny thing though, while the em/explosive resistances are still the same as T1, your kinetic goes from 77.7 to 92.6 and therm from 74.0 to 85.1. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:01:00 -
[2474] - Quote
It almost looks like CCP gone the route: 1. Do something bad. 2. Change to something even worse. 3. To do something better - revert 2 to 1. ........... Profit!.
As a side note: swap web bonus to 10% range and damage of smart bombs. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:02:00 -
[2475] - Quote
To mare wrote:ithink they really deserve a 5th turret/missile launcher every marauder have less potential dps than one T1 BS of the same race
Where did you get that idea?? Vargur has 10.67 effective turrets, same as Mael and FleePest, (less than Mach with 11.67) Paladin has 10 same as Abaddon and Nightmare (more than Bhaalgorn with 8) Kronos has 10 more than any other than Vindi with 11 Golem has 8, the same as Raven, RNI and SNI (can't really talk about the Rattlesnake with its mixed missile/drone damage) |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:18:00 -
[2476] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Plus I've made my argument against velocity bonused webs a few times already, after running the numbers I'd much rather see range bonused ones. Better for incursions with the Warfare Link changes, lets you better hold cruisers out at blap-ranges, and is less OP for PvP in general since it doesn't make you immune to small ships, just somewhat resistant.
I'm a fan of a range bonus to webs, if bonused webs must be. It shouldn't be anything like massive bonuses some hulls get, but 10%/level wouldn't be too strong.
However, the Golem really should have something else in place of the painter bonus if the web bonus stays on, because otherwise one of its major hull bonuses becomes very hard to use due to insufficient mids for MJD+web+painter+tank. They're nothing wrong with having to compromise to fit dual-prop plus everything else, or double painters, but having to not fit things your ship is clearly intended to fit sucks, especially as other marauders won't have this problem, and thus will be more attractive because they'll be stronger for being able to use all their bonuses.
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:18:00 -
[2477] - Quote
Folks, you want too much at all. Pick one and strenghten this not all at once.
Maybe i have a nice idea: make the Bastion mode, a mode the needs fuel stored in an extra cargo, that allows to reduce the mass of the ship by 50%. This will boost your MWD / AB Speed for the duration immense, makes it a mobil ship for PVE / PVP. No extra dps, no extra range, maybe a bit better sensor strenght an scan res, this should not get over the top.
What do you think?
|

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:23:00 -
[2478] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Folks, you want too much at all. Pick one and strenghten this not all at once.
Maybe i have a nice idea: make the Bastion mode, a mode the needs fuel stored in an extra cargo, that allows to reduce the mass of the ship by 50%. This will boost your MWD / AB Speed for the duration immense, makes it a mobil ship for PVE / PVP. No extra dps, no extra range, maybe a bit better sensor strenght an scan res, this should not get over the top.
What do you think?
Return to the age of nanoRavens when nanofibers affected mass and not agility? It was fun, yeah... Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
244
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:26:00 -
[2479] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:To mare wrote:ithink they really deserve a 5th turret/missile launcher every marauder have less potential dps than one T1 BS of the same race Where did you get that idea?? Vargur has 10.67 effective turrets, same as Mael and FleePest, (less than Mach with 11.67) Paladin has 10 same as Abaddon and Nightmare (more than Bhaalgorn with 8) Kronos has 10 more than any other than Vindi with 11 Golem has 8, the same as Raven, RNI and SNI (can't really talk about the Rattlesnake with its mixed missile/drone damage)
equal turret for 3 of them but t1 have more drone dps available 10 turret vs 9 for the kronos vs hype but huge drone bay difference |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:27:00 -
[2480] - Quote
Whatever CCP will do they should make their mind about it.
Right now it is a tank on wheels, with spining baldes as its main armament. Guys firgure out what this ship is for. Than start applying bonuses, resists, etc.
|
|

marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:34:00 -
[2481] - Quote
Guess that finally finishes off the Marauder as a PvE ship, was, is and will remain utterly useless for PvP, and whatever caused you to believe that a WEB bonus was in anyway what players needed, EWAR boost maybe Webs, come on please.
'Bastion' module, yer right, lets all warp in and just sit there asking to be hot dropped, that is if your stupid enough to use a Marauder in PvP in the first place, and if your using it for PvE, what ya gonna dump so you can fit it, more of the mediocre tank, weapons or Cap.
All Marauders really needed was a tweak to Ewar, nothing more, wonder how much time CCP invested in this.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:35:00 -
[2482] - Quote
Iv already suggested this but to reiterate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc&feature=youtube_gdata_player If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Critical Issue
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:36:00 -
[2483] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:This Marauder change has gone from "Great!" to "No thanks".
Thats what i said also.
BTW i hope this thread reaches 300 pages.
|

Lucidia fern
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:38:00 -
[2484] - Quote
Going by the view of this forum thread, CCP needs to answer the following questions so we have a chance in hell of understanding these changes
What role is this ship intended to fill now ?
What +/- is PVE supposed to expect?
What +/- is PVP supposed to expect?
Right now there seems to be a complete lack of direction. The 1st iteration of changes whilst somewhat contested at least made sense / showed direction. This second set seems to be split personality and directionless. |

Franz7657
DreddNaut
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:51:00 -
[2485] - Quote
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.
wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem...
let the shield boost bonus |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:52:00 -
[2486] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.
except that Bastion mode comes with a huge downside. 1 minute of being unable to move + not able to receive RR. 1st iteration had a rep bonus, ewar immunity, huge resist bonus and a range bonus. 2nd iteration bastion mode loses one of the bonuses but keeps all the downsides.
It basically dramatically lowers the usefulness of bastion mode in PVP (unless you count uncontested structure shoots as PVP) and thus the chance of seeing it being used.
The 1st iteration it was at least possible to envision MJD to reposition and bastion to survive until logi burned into range. The loss of the huge EHP bonus as well as some of the inherant bonuses to self rep take this sort of tactic from unlikely outside of Rooks and Kings making an awesome video to suicide.
It is the ability to survive reposition until logi gets back to range that has been nerfed. Webbing is better applied from a specialised webbing platform and i really don't see what short ranged webs have to do with a ship flooded with range bonuses to weapons. (except in PVE).
Also i am totally not understanding the lvl 4 mission crowd. Every lvl 4 is doable in a drake with T1 missiles. Every ship beyond that just makes it faster and more efficient. Blinged out marauders doing them is beyond overkill. |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:53:00 -
[2487] - Quote
Quote:This second set seems to be split personality and directionless.
Catering to a wider audience make sense don't you think? What are those new tech2 resistances on marauders, do they compensate lack of the bonuses to local reps? New CQ prototype |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:57:00 -
[2488] - Quote
sensor strength ______Marauders+T2 Resists =_________Rebalanced! / Track&salvager bonus / Direction--/ \ \ MicroJumpDrive -------New Ideas+BastionMod =_____New Ship! AbaddonHull |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
481
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:59:00 -
[2489] - Quote
Why in hell the massive nerf to the vargur? So much less HP and loosing 1/3 of its speed? Wtf? I am sellign Mine TODAY if its becommign this crap. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
366
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:03:00 -
[2490] - Quote
Franz7657 wrote:wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem...
Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs.
So now it's all of them or none of them.  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:04:00 -
[2491] - Quote
Let's consider outside of bastion mode first. So what do the numbers look like for a brawling Marauder now with the transition from 37.5 local rep versus T2 resists? PVE wise, some ships received a buff against their faction NPCs and some basically lost a third of their TQ tanking ability (Paladin). For PVP, this is reversed where the more omni-tanked T2 resist profiles shine. I'm not sure if this is a decent trade-off for all races here since enhancing the ship class's PVP role is a secondary concern. It shouldn't come as a nerf to the existing PVE capabilities of each hull. There are arguments for each side here.
The real problem now is that the bastion module is basically useless for non sniper roles. If you brawler fit and land in the middle of a furball, bastion mode has very little benefit. The issue arises when you consider the tracking and missile damage formulas.
At 0 m/s, the left side of the tracking equation basically drops out because you have very little traversal so the only modification to NPC/enemy chance to hit with turrets is falloff. If the NPC enters their optimal range, which will happen quickly since you're not moving, they will have a 100% chance to hit. Even moving at 100 m/s slowboating reduces incoming damage from enemy turrets.
The NPC missiles have an explosion velocity of around 85 m/s if I recall correctly. With the pre-nerf base speed you'd see at least a little damage reduction for incoming missiles. When in bastion mode you'll be guaranteeing max damage from missile based NPCs.
This all combines to make the 100% rep bonus far less than 100% effective because you'll be taking somewhere between 20-50% more damage depending on NPC range. In the middle of the pack most NPCs will be within optimal.
As has been discussed before, the tanking bonus doesn't really help the sniper role in PVE but the range bonus does. So really the bastion module only has the range bonus going for it for sniper fits and is almost pointless for anyone brawling or being caught in a PVP situation.
The original iteration although seriously flawed was still better than what we have now. This version makes winners and losers for PVE based on racial T2 resists with some being good for missions and some for incursions. At the price point they still aren't worth it for PVP use.
Give me a reason to hit the bastion button other than range (which for some weapon systems isn't needed), EWAR immunity (only really 1 in 5 missions does this even matter), and a cool animation. |

Setsune Rin
Bite Me inc Bitten.
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:05:00 -
[2492] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Franz7657 wrote:wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem... Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs. So now it's all of them or none of them. 
which is batshit ********.... |

Eli Kzanti
Remanaquie Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:09:00 -
[2493] - Quote
Setsune Rin wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Franz7657 wrote:wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem... Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs. So now it's all of them or none of them.  which is batshit ********.... Couldn't agree more.
My Vargur is either going to be sold off to pay for a pirate BS instead (if anyone even wants the damn thing after this) or will be left to gather dust in my hangar, I expect. |

Setsune Rin
Bite Me inc Bitten.
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:15:00 -
[2494] - Quote
ytterbium needs to decide what he wants to do with them
either they're snipers and you give them appropriate bonuses or they're not and you fix bastion mode to match
cant snipe with a ~15km range module being bonussed
make it a long range web bonus then |

Vegare
Stranger Things Nulli Secunda
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:17:00 -
[2495] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:[...]we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons.
This is totally backwards! Mjd bonus and bastion mod encourage a completely different engagement envelope.
Furthermore web bonuses should stay racial exclusive for Minmatar and Amarr (range and amount respectively). This goes for all other ewar/propulsion jamming bonuses as well: Don't water down racial flavours please! |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1498
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:18:00 -
[2496] - Quote
The selling point behind the bastion module was the 30% non stacking resists, without those I will never use it. Rat specific tanking is one of the most ******** concepts I have ever been introduced to and the first bastion module and original hull tanking module gave proper tanking for any PVE situation that you could encounter.
The Tractor beam bonus needs to be increased to 200% or introduce the unpublished large tractor beam. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Solaris Ecladia
High Flyers The Kadeshi
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:18:00 -
[2497] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. you took away the rep bonus and ****** up the entire ship. what the **** are you doing ccp? |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
494
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:18:00 -
[2498] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:What are those new tech2 resistances on marauders, do they compensate lack of bonuses to the local reps? Sure they don't compensate for both removed basic rep bonus and bastion resistances (here I'm comparing proposition 2 with proposition 1). If we are to compare current proposition with today's marauders, then the answer is "not always". For once, PvE in Paladin takes a hit here as Amarr T2 resistance profile is irrelevant against rats that Paladin is supposed to shoot (and if you aren't shooting Sansha or BR you should just go ahead and grab any other marauder). Plus there is lowered speed unless using MJD, and MJD playstyle doesn't sit well with salvaging on the go... It's a trainwreck really when it comes to missioning. And there's competition with other hulls when it comes to pretty much everything they can do, so yeah...
In PvP T2 profile is not bad, but I'm yet to understand resons to field this new marauder over something of similar price. And as I've said it, if the bonus s there indeed for sniper marauders to protect themselves from tacklers, I'm not really sure how well that will work without slight range bonus.
Debora Tsung wrote:Franz7657 wrote:wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem... Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs. So now it's all of them or none of them.  I honestly don't think that Paladin needs his webs, and then there's Vindy if you need blaster ship with webs... |

Trendafil
Str8ngeBrew RAZOR Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:21:00 -
[2499] - Quote
Pve is not about tanking more it's about dps. Implementing new module that gives defensive boost to ships that did not had tanking problems to begin with is bad design. I love the idea of tranformation and i reaaaally hope its not gonna end up like the dreds (guns sticking out a bit). With that in mind here is my suggestion for the Bullshtion Module:
Instead of making a bastard child of triage module and civilian miner i would LOVE to see what will happen if a Doomsday and a siege module had a baby! For example:
Single high dmg shot, that makes the marouder vulnerable for 60sec (25sec transformation animation, 10 sec shot animation or missile fight time and 25sec to transform back) During these 60 sec some terrible defensive penalties are applied, making it a true glass cannon. To make it even more interesting, this one high dmg shot can be cap heavy and interuptable by draning the cap during the intial transormation phase(25s).
But since this is too good to ever happen in eve here is something more constructive: Replace all deffensive bonuses with offensive for the bastion and instead making it unable to recieve reps just reduce the amount of remote rep to 50%.
Lets face it, this is bad attempt to make the ship more usefull in the next tournament. I am willing to bet money that this comes from summary of the starts for ships used in the last tournament.
The tournament is relevant fot about two weekends each year and calling it relevant is pushing it. If CCP wants to get more of that pro-gaming buzz, please make the tournament matter beyond few shiny ships that we never see anyway... and only then move on to changing the ships to reflect this new direction.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1384
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:23:00 -
[2500] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Could you please put it to 5% on both these and the Serpentis? Even at 7,5% its still a stupidly overpowered bonus... BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
494
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:24:00 -
[2501] - Quote
Trendafil wrote:Pve is not about tanking more it's about dps. Implementing new module that gives defensive boost to ships that did not had tanking problems to begin with is bad design. I love the idea of tranformation and i reaaaally hope its not gonna end up like the dreds (guns sticking out a bit). Well, tbh tanking bonus kind of allows ships to dedicate more mods to DPS/projection instead of using them to tank, but I see your point. And yeah, I like transformation idea too. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:24:00 -
[2502] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Franz7657 wrote:wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem... Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs. So now it's all of them or none of them. 
Hey Man, I am a Paladin pilot and I don't want it. I also don't want capacitor amount bonus (why we have it exactly? didn't CCP at HAC rebalance said that capacitor bonuses are stupid?).
|

Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:33:00 -
[2503] - Quote
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together. |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade Evolution of Dawn
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:38:00 -
[2504] - Quote
I guess I'll take another stab on it and comment on the changes as they currently are laid out (2013-09-05) (mostly regarding the Vargur as that is what I'm most interested in)
Things I like: - Bastion mode for the most part (+100% shield/armor rep, falloff/optimal/max. velocity +25%) - Fitting changes (I actually think I'm most excited about the power grid increase) - Targeting buffs - Sig radius buff - MJD bonus - T2 Resists
Things I don't like but will accept because you can't let them become OP: - Velocity/mass nerf - Drone bandwidth nerf - HP nerf
Things I don't like that I think need to be changed: - Web bonus on ships that previously had rep bonuses: Seems kinda silly to bonus a short range module on a long range weapons platform. Remove web bonus on these hulls, reinstate shield rep bonus but leave it at 5% / level instead of 7.5% / level, since we have T2 resists and Bastion mode now - Tractor beam bonus: again, range doesn't fit with the platform you've set up. I'd say make it a 200% range bonus or remove it entirely - No resist bonus to bastion mode: add it back it, but at around 10% non-stacking instead of 30% - Sensor strength: perhaps like.... 5 more points? Just so it's a little harder to jam
Basically, I like these changes for the most part, but I do agree with the sentiment that all these bonuses seemed mashed together on some ships because the ranges that they apply at are all out of whack. Also, from a mission running perspective, I don't really see myself using Bastion mode except when I'm in heavy need of reps. Even less so for incursions and PvP (and I think that 10% non-stacking resist bonus on bastion would mitigate this). |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
337
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:38:00 -
[2505] - Quote
hmm.
i loved the first go at these ships.
but i have to say, t2 resists? my sac has the same resists. i stick 1 1600 plate and go from 2250 without skills to 8062 with skills and plate. my ehp while not in fleet and only using passive t2 mods is at 50k. so my 8k paladin will have 10k armor with skills and 2 plates = 19k with 84, 83, 84, 88% resists (assuming i keep the same setup as my sac and ad another plate and a heat sink). now, if i put a 3rd plate, we're talking 22k bordering 23k armor at what resists? put it in fleet with the mindlink and a damnation or astarte pushing armor links and we have 15% on top of this @26.5k and 86-90% resistances. thats 190k EHP in ARMOR ALONE against the weakest resist. or stick 2 lar II's instead of a 3rd plate and enter beast mode and have 2 local reps pushing the healing of 4 with super high resists and a 30% tracking bonus? thats 22500 armor @161k EHP just in armor alone on the weakest resistance. omni tanked....it gets worse. your tank goes to 225k against explosive. with the cap recharge rate, you can run double reps for a bit.
now add in the ability to hit 120km with megapulse (not tachyons), the ability to stay out of range of most ships while you completely slaughter them, and once they get close enough, you mjd away and start the process over again? i fail to see how this is a problem. 161k (minimum) armor tank with the bonus to rep tremendous amounts until rescue shows up (for pvp) is crazy. and, it still has the dps of 10 mega pulse without a damage mod. with a damage mod, it gets insane. now web em still, scram their mwd off and unleash hell. wait...reinforcements? mjd. snipe. mjd. snipe. how many dead ships until they get the message? watch out for arazu tho...other than that, yer killin fewls.
the web bonus IS out of place on a ship that is the master of range. it can hit you at range, keep you at range and blast u from range..so why the close in web? hell, i couldnt hit frigates orbiting at 10km with my megapulse even at 90%.
thats what light drones are for.
for missions: range. keep them at range. if you guys are trying to max out dps and drop tank, youll suffer some, but kill faster. thats what pirate ships are for. if u wanna hold your tank and still only slightly slaughter the enemy, then t2 is your path.
for pvp, the web bonus will be great.
for wh, since i run a noctis, i dont use the tractor or salvager and i damn sure wouldnt rig my damage ship for salvaging to help it. but then again, i havent had my paladin in a wh since 09 and salvaging those bs wrecks is a good thing. again, we would just put a noctis in the orca or whatever.
for incursions, the slower those frigs run, the easier they are to hit, i agree. focus more on the bigger ships like the cruisers and bs rats. but since you have your webs back...be happy.
i did not like the resists on the old marauder. i love these. i love bastion mode. the 7.5% rep rate would have been god mode, but with 160k tank minimum, its there anyway. if you can resist it, no need to heal it. this is a nasty buffer for any incursion fleet. you can drop 1 logi and bring a loki. there's your webs, or another marauder and gain your drone damage back. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:41:00 -
[2506] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.
do u even know what u are doing? u are making thoose ships stationary with bastion module, giving them more optimals on their weapons and in same time web bonus? webs got 10k range whats the point if this if your guns got 100k and your ships cant move?
Thoose ships are too slow to catch anything (with golem the slowest one), they dont have enought cap to run mwd, tank and shoot in same time.
|

Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:42:00 -
[2507] - Quote
Keep the hulls as they are now, change the bastion module. |

Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:43:00 -
[2508] - Quote
These new proposed changes cut the tank in HALF before adding T2-resists. Overall much less "bastion" than before... and more of the OP webs. I am not sure I like the new version.
As for mass increase and wormholes: 115m kg mass times ten is more than fits through most WHs anyway. You could as well have said: 20 times the mass and it would not have gone through ANY WH. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:43:00 -
[2509] - Quote
I'd like to put one of my earlier posts in this thread back out there.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3553386#post3553386
The balancing act of this ship class would be much easier if you simply separate the two roles of sniper and brawler into two distinct bastion modules or add scripting capabilities to the module. The current state of the rebalance is trying to go in too many directions at once.
I'm really worried that the Paladin in particular will actually have a LESS effective tank (for the NPC factions it's supposed to be shooting) than it does on TQ even when in bastion mode. The T2 resist profile doesn't help there so the base hull will be 1/3 less effective tanking that damage (EM/therm) than it is on TQ. To make up for it you can activate the bastion module. However, this increases incoming damage by 20-50% because you are now immobile taking max NPC missile damage and much more NPC turret damage as the tracking equation gets reduced to only falloff. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:44:00 -
[2510] - Quote
Having mulled the bastion 2.0 changes in my head during my lunch break I honestly can't see these ships ever being used outside of the Blockade, and that is just really really sad.
Remove the ridiculous web bonuses, return it's non bastion tank.
The OP states that they (CCP) would like to see the ship uses expanded to include niche PVP situations. The addition of T2 resists and the crys of people complaining about its inability to receive reps smells like business as usual in null, definately not niche.
In the current guise, even if the Paladin grew to the size of planet, transformed into Unicron and used an Avatar as a weapon Megatron stylee it wouldn't be cool enough to warrant flying it.
...But it could tank angel extraveganza bonus room forever, even longer than my attention span would last. Just as well as it would take forever to clear using lasers  |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:45:00 -
[2511] - Quote
Zendon Taredi wrote:I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.
I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
337
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:48:00 -
[2512] - Quote
Zendon Taredi wrote:I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together. dont use "we" in this statement, use "i". a lot of "we" want a general all around good ship. besides, the bonus is barely adequate anyway. if it were 100km range and a base +50% chance of better salvager, then hell yeah, but my rigged noctis turns circles around my paladin. |

Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:53:00 -
[2513] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together. dont use "we" in this statement, use "i". a lot of "we" want a general all around good ship. besides, the bonus is barely adequate anyway. if it were 100km range and a base +50% chance of better salvager, then hell yeah, but my rigged noctis turns circles around my paladin.
Just saying that is has a big PVE stamp on it because of the tractor beam bonus. I fit smart bombs, and im sure you do as well. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
481
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:53:00 -
[2514] - Quote
THe stasis we b bonus as many pointed doe snto match the other bonus. Sound like a non thinked change.
Better woudl be a combined 5% web strenght AND 10% web Range bonus. At least would make SOME sense. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1500
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:54:00 -
[2515] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together. I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. What? the most recent change was for the incursion whiners, the ships will still be loot pi+¦atas in low sec (though more so now without the ability to uber tank) deep sov null they will be used the same as current, and many WH sites were doable with them before so there would have been only gain from the first iteration. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3328
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:00:00 -
[2516] - Quote
So a T2 resist Mega with fu-Falcon+superLAAR -mode and a bonused web? Hell yeah :D
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1412
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:00:00 -
[2517] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
well, at least marauders are now great incursion ships. after reading the shitstorm opinions from PVPers, i tend to agree that some extra range and self rep is usually not worth locking yourself in place for 60 seconds, esecially on a 1bil hull. then again, there may be some situations where it might become useful and its usefulness in missions is beyond any doubt anyway.
if the changes go through the way they are now, i predict marauders to become a presence in blob warfare. they are not much more expensive than foxcats and their new resistance bonuses will make their EHP outshine any other subcap in the game.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:05:00 -
[2518] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Xequecal wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together. I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. What? the most recent change was for the incursion whiners, the ships will still be loot pi+¦atas in low sec (though more so now without the ability to uber tank) deep sov null they will be used the same as current, and many WH sites were doable with them before so there would have been only gain from the first iteration.
Of course they were "doable," but these changes represent a vast increase in efficiency. Since using bastion for solo PvE in low/null/wspace is outright suicidal, the loss of resistances on it is meaningless here, since you couldn't really use it anyway. So we've basically traded a rep/boost bonus for a web bonus and T2 resists and that's definitely a buff.
Since you don't have to root yourself anymore, it's not significantly easier to gank than a strategic cruiser. You need to warp off before they get on grid and lock you, just like any other ship. The price is not a real issue when you consider it blows through anoms at twice the rate a Tengu does. I'd rather lose a 1.5bil Marauder than a 1bil Tengu and 210,000 skill points. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
496
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:06:00 -
[2519] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE.
Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless.
Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:09:00 -
[2520] - Quote
Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got only 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with 3 slots for tank. There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders. |
|

Guardian Phoenix
Violent Force Productions
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:11:00 -
[2521] - Quote
Removing the base repair bonus from Marauders now forces them to have to use the bastion module to achieve anywhere near the tank as before. Example given my ship will go from ~2,400hp/cycle to ~1,745hp/cycle. That's huge. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
481
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:13:00 -
[2522] - Quote
5th turret/launcher!!!!!
|

Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3328
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:14:00 -
[2523] - Quote
Scrapping my skill plan and training for Kronos <3
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

stoicfaux
3081
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:15:00 -
[2524] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
-1 From a level 4 mission perspective, webs are too short ranged to be of value. Dropping the shield/armor boost bonus for a nearly useless web velocity bonus is just terrible. [insert threat to sell my Vargur here]
You'd be better of with a web range bonus and maybe another mid slot so we can fit two webs. But even that is pretty meh.
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1412
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:17:00 -
[2525] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Xequecal wrote:I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE. Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless. Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope. if you do not see how being immune to neuts helps running wormhole PvE, you have probably never been to a C3/C4. also, ask a basilisk pilot what he thinks about T1 vs. T2 resistances in incursions.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:18:00 -
[2526] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote: if you do not see how being immune to neuts helps running wormhole PvE, you have probably never been to a C3/C4. also, ask a basilisk pilot what he thinks about T1 vs. T2 resistances in incursions.
Where does it state that Marauders are immune to neuts? |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:19:00 -
[2527] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Xequecal wrote:I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE. Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless. Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope. if you do not see how being immune to neuts helps running wormhole PvE, you have probably never been to a C3/C4. also, ask a basilisk pilot what he thinks about T1 vs. T2 resistances in incursions.
I don't think EWAR immunity means you are immune to neuts. Sry Mate...
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1412
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:21:00 -
[2528] - Quote
are you sure about that? that would be... unfortunate.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

stoicfaux
3081
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:24:00 -
[2529] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders. You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank.
/fubar
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1384
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:28:00 -
[2530] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders. You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank. /fubar edit: to be fair, you'll never put a web on a Golem for Level 4s, so we're back to a 3-4 slot tank.
You don't really have to be careful..
Its a level 4... You can do them in drakes...
We aren't exactly talking about challenging content. All of these marauders will roflstomp them like its some sort of joke. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1412
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:30:00 -
[2531] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders. You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank. /fubar edit: to be fair, you'll never put a web on a Golem for Level 4s, so we're back to a 3-4 slot tank. depending on what kind of resist profile you end up with, a 2slot tank may be perfectly sufficient. and if you actually end up using the bastion module, you're 200% fine anyway. ofc. if they just take the regular T2 resists and slap them onto the marauder hulls, the kronos and golem will profit much more than the other two, with the paladin being a clear loser.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
482
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:31:00 -
[2532] - Quote
What i want is a ship that can be useful in some realistic PVP scenario. The range and MJD bonus and reduced mobility goes AGAINST the web bonus.
THe web bonus can only work if its a mixed range and strenght bonus (10%5%) |

Dark Ways
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:37:00 -
[2533] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
I understand the the change from 30% resistance bonus in Bastion Mode to having T2 resists to try to appeal to the PVP/PVE crowd who want the remote reps.
What I DO NOT understand is why you are trying to take away the basis of what these ships have been in the local rep bonus. You are taking a ship and adding new skills and modules to get results close to what the ship already had.
I for one did not need the target painter on my golem I surely don't need a web now.
In your effort to make this ship appealing for use in PVP don't ruin the ship for the PVE crowd who have been using the ship for years. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1384
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:39:00 -
[2534] - Quote
So basically what we have here are battleship with t2 res
What the actual powercreep ****?
In what universe is that a good sensible idea? Seriously? You know why you havn't put in BS's with t2 res before? Because its a ******* awful idea.
So MAD /o\ BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:39:00 -
[2535] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Xequecal wrote:I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy. The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE. Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless. Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope.
For PvE, they have no competition at all in wormholes. They are vastly superior to everything else by an absurd degree. These ships (well, not the Golem) crap out 1200+ DPS while still tanking the site, have the range bonuses to fully apply that DPS, and now have super-webs so drones must not be risked to kill frigate waves. They also salvage everything, no need to come back with a Noctis. Oh and you can also put a probe launcher on it too so you don't have to worry about getting stuck or having a probing alt.
When people think of C3/C4 solo right now, they think of a 600-700 DPS Tengu. These come in and do double that DPS. 1200 DPS kills a C3 Sleeper battleship in a minute, that's a 15-20m ISK rat killed in a minute. |

Crellion
Parental Control
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:42:00 -
[2536] - Quote
Ummm what can I say now... t2 resists is a good step I guess.
Web bonus... for all ships... not that much. I can see it being very good on the Kronos and perhaps on some Vargur and Pali fits... but again not with the range bonus, or an mjd bonus rly.
SO SOME ALTERNATIVES:
IDEA 1. If you feel you simply *must* keep bastion theme... I would advise either to make it invulnerable to neuting (for high end content) or provide a serious damage upgrade. A serious proposal would be to add a 50% tracking buff which is a serious damage upgrade at the BS level.
IDEA 2. What would be really cool and in sync with the "lets make them good fpr pvp" concept would be 7.5% per level to stasis web factor & range. This would at least make them a lot more appealing for solo / small gang, which should really be their niche anyway.
IDEA 3. As a final idea you could scrap "Bastion" and call it "beserker" mode. Essentially -50% the effectiveness of local and remote reps when activated and providing +50% dps in exchange. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1412
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:42:00 -
[2537] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm
wtb 500m nightmare.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Mokusui
Lazy Brothers Inc
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:44:00 -
[2538] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
I rarely post but this change has driven me to do so. Admittedly, in my current play style, I may not see every variable at play, but I can find no pattern or logic to these changes and they threaten to ruin my favorite class of ship in EVE. I was very excited about the changes with the first iteration but this second iteration has me scratching my head.
I have trained Marauders 5 and fly the Golem and the Vargur almost exclusively in a PvE capacity. My training for the Kronos will be complete in two weeks. Now, with these new changes, I see a very specific role emerging around the so-called "bastion" module. MJD to range, use the existing range-befitting bonuses of the marauder class to lay waste to your enemies, then continue on your way. It is a ship that has always appeared to be centered around self-sufficiency and efficiency.
The tradeoff of repair/boost amount for T2 resist profiles appears reasonably fair to me and I think I'm even OK with the loss of the non-stacking bastion resist bonuses in light of tthe T2 resists but I must now ask, what the hell is this web bonus about? Honestly, I want an answer besides "It helps people with short-range weapons." Since when do the the marauders have trouble reaching range even with bloody autocannons or torps? You've just designed these ships to operate from range. Did you not just revise the Typhoon to eliminate its chronic "role salad" of bonuses? I thought it was well-understood that ships in EVE need to be focused so that, at any given time, a pilot does not have to give up the benefit of any of a ship's bonuses in any one fit that has been targeted toward a ship's designed role. For example, if I want to fit for bastion mode, I'm not going to fit a web because I'll never use it and I need the mid slots for tank and/or tracking computers, target painters, etc., unless you plan on adding a mid slot to each marauder. In addition, a ship like the Golem now has two bonuses to EWAR: web and target painter. Web bonuses are weak and rarely useful due to their range limitations, essentially killing an entire bonus from the marauder class for me and I'm sure many other pilots.
I can think of only two instances where I might use a web: to kill drones and frigates. In the Vargur, I insta-pop frigates before they can even get within range of me. In the Golem, I use my drones and with my skills, can even often insta-pop those with Precision torps and dual target painters if they arent. When piloting either ship against NPCs like Spider Drones, I use my own light drones. I have never once wished I had a web nor has the idea even occurred to me.
I think I understand what you're trying to do. There are many forms of PvE besides my own preferred form but you have to face the fact that you cannot, nor has any EVE ship of which I can recall, ever been able to specialize to all of the forms. Please stop trying. The marauders will roll out of your fingers as tangled, myopic messes that will remove marauders completely from many EVE veterans' favor and destroy marauders' headlining power in your winter expansion.
I don't have any exact solutions for you right now but I'm alright with that because you get paid for this. If you are just dead-set on webs, make it a range bonus to webs not web speed factor. You also need to make bastion mode actually worth using by giving a damage bonus, a tank bonus, allowing remote reps, or whatever you feel you need to do.
I look forward to reviewing subsequent revisions of the marauder class. |

loles
The Oregon Mining Corporation Cookie Collective
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:47:00 -
[2539] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Ok, so you gave PvPers what they wanted, and removed everything that made them fun in PvE (it no longer feels like bastion). Now just add one more stat: This ship explodes if you hit a NPC, and there you are, pure PvP ship. |

John Holt
Praetorian Cohort
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:48:00 -
[2540] - Quote
Taking the shield boost bonus away from the Golem will kill its tank. |
|

Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
338
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:51:00 -
[2541] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield.
Yet they are losing their rep bonus? I'm failing to see how they 'operate approximately the same' if one now is forced to go into bastion mode to reach the same amount of rep as was previously attainable. http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing -á-á < Unified Inventory is NOT ready... |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
969
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:54:00 -
[2542] - Quote
You can't please everyone i guess....
I think the web bonus will be great for PVP fit marauders. It makes sense that a marauder in bastion mode would want to keep a target pinned (webbed) down.
I'm just here for the likes |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:54:00 -
[2543] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm wtb 500m nightmare.
Last time i checked (weekend) nightmares going for around 850mil, paladins close to 1.5bil.
Ofc that was in Amarr.
|

marVLs
398
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:55:00 -
[2544] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: For PvE, they have no competition at all in wormholes. They are vastly superior to everything else by an absurd degree. These ships (well, not the Golem) crap out 1200+ DPS while still tanking the site, have the range bonuses to fully apply that DPS, and now have super-webs so drones must not be risked to kill frigate waves. They also salvage everything, no need to come back with a Noctis. Oh and you can also put a probe launcher on it too so you don't have to worry about getting stuck or having a probing alt.
When people think of C3/C4 solo right now, they think of a 600-700 DPS Tengu. These come in and do double that DPS. 1200 DPS kills a C3 Sleeper battleship in a minute, that's a 15-20m ISK rat killed in a minute.
lol where You got 1200DPS on long ranges?
Maybe on Vargur? hmm nope, 1,1k DPS on 5km in Bastion
Kronos? nope, on null 1,1k DPS on 20few km in Bastion
rest wont reach 1,2k DPS without some extreme mods, and still will be around 50-60km in Bastion so meh for not moving |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1413
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:58:00 -
[2545] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Agreed, the Paladin looks a lot less shinier now, double the price of a nightmare for a slight range buff?? Hmmm wtb 500m nightmare. Last time i checked (weekend) nightmares going for around 850mil, paladins close to 1.5bil. Ofc that was in Amarr. i don't even know what to say to that... you have literally stunned me with stupid.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:59:00 -
[2546] - Quote
Lucidia fern wrote:Going by the view of this forum thread, CCP needs to answer the following questions so we have a chance in hell of understanding these changes
What role is this ship intended to fill now ?
What +/- is PVE supposed to expect?
What +/- is PVP supposed to expect?
Right now there seems to be a complete lack of direction. The 1st iteration of changes whilst somewhat contested at least made sense / showed direction. This second set seems to be split personality and directionless. well, i still say this version is very similar to the first, especially in concept as bastion is still getting huge tank, just not As huge. And regular mode is getting resist boost, which is arguable for some because of how they would set it up for rat specific resists etc.... but i agree in asking what the role is going to be....
Quote:my request to the devs:
Please with the next iteration (or this one, if you believe it is sufficient) explicitly state what scenarios marauders are supposed to excel in, and why it would be better to use a marauder in that situation rather than say, a pirate ship.
I think the biggest problem is that people are not sure what place marauders are supposed be, and why their high isk and sp cost is warranted.
Thanks for the update on new stats and the very informational post on the earlier version showing how it would perform in missions, but the issue is not what it "can" do, or even what it excels in, but rather, what it is (best at) Better at than any other ship. So we dont need exact numbers or exactly How it will function, just assurance that it is supposed to be better at scenario X than other ships, and that it will be balanced accordingly. Many thanks in advance.
Re-post for ultimate justice! |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
483
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:04:00 -
[2547] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:So basically what we have here are battleship with t2 res
What the actual powercreep ****?
In what universe is that a good sensible idea? Seriously? You know why you havn't put in BS's with t2 res before? Because its a ******* awful idea.
So MAD /o\
That is what EVERYONE expected when t2 battleships were to be introduced. THe T2 battleships we got were quite a failure at any activity other than PVE, because PVE is not risky and you can pay 10 times the price for a 4% extra efficiency.
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
483
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:04:00 -
[2548] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:You can't please everyone i guess....
I think the web bonus will be great for PVP fit marauders. It makes sense that a marauder in bastion mode would want to keep a target pinned (webbed) down.
Not effectively. Since the ship is immobile.. NO ONE will enter web range. Every oen will orbit the Battleship at 13001meters |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
969
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:11:00 -
[2549] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Rek Seven wrote:You can't please everyone i guess....
I think the web bonus will be great for PVP fit marauders. It makes sense that a marauder in bastion mode would want to keep a target pinned (webbed) down.
Not effectively. Since the ship is immobile.. NO ONE will enter web range. Every oen will orbit the Battleship at 13001meters
I completely agree with you, which is why i think it should be a web range bonus instead of effectiveness.
I just emailed a suggestion to CCP that it should be the bastion mod that gives a bonus to web range and target painter effectiveness. The web effectiveness should be a pirate faction exclusive bonus. I'm just here for the likes |

Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:14:00 -
[2550] - Quote
NOOOO KEEP THE TANK BONUS. |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:14:00 -
[2551] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Xequecal wrote: For PvE, they have no competition at all in wormholes. They are vastly superior to everything else by an absurd degree. These ships (well, not the Golem) crap out 1200+ DPS while still tanking the site, have the range bonuses to fully apply that DPS, and now have super-webs so drones must not be risked to kill frigate waves. They also salvage everything, no need to come back with a Noctis. Oh and you can also put a probe launcher on it too so you don't have to worry about getting stuck or having a probing alt.
When people think of C3/C4 solo right now, they think of a 600-700 DPS Tengu. These come in and do double that DPS. 1200 DPS kills a C3 Sleeper battleship in a minute, that's a 15-20m ISK rat killed in a minute.
lol where You got 1200DPS on long ranges? Maybe on Vargur? hmm nope, 1,1k DPS on 5km in Bastion Kronos? nope, on null 1,1k DPS on 20few km in Bastion rest wont reach 1,2k DPS without some extreme mods, and still will be around 50-60km in Bastion so meh for not moving
3x Imperial Navy heatsink Core C-type LAR Em/Therm hardeners CPR II
100MN AB 3 Tracking computers
4 MP II, Conflag
2x CCC II
1239 DPS, 30+20 range, (within orbit range of all sleepers except Sleepless Upholders, these have the worst tank of all sleeper BS so shoot them first) cap stable, tanks any C3 site except for FFRD.
Having 12,500 base capacitor lets you do a lot. Swap the AB for a MJD if you really want, your tank won't be perfect without the ability to speedtank BS missiles and ****** Upholder tracking but it's still doable. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2633

|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:24:00 -
[2552] - Quote
To quote this other post.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.
And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. |
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:27:00 -
[2553] - Quote
wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Hayman Wakefield
Trans-Stellar Salvage Shipping and Securities
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:29:00 -
[2554] - Quote
Given the last couple of balances have worked as :
1st iteration -people rage so gets changed to iteration 2, then some minor fitting tweaks and then release its a bit worrying that we will see these turned into that weird mismash you proposed earlier with some minor fitting changes.
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1275
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:30:00 -
[2555] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those.
Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Leats
ELVE Industries Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:31:00 -
[2556] - Quote
I just want to throw out something... why should i fly a Marauder when they get F***** in the ass? A Vindicator does all of its jobs by far better, i had someone in my corp who had a 1800dps Vindicator for ratting... In PvP Vindicators are also the best pick for BS sized ships afaik...
And the whole standings still for 1 Min. without Logistic-support eliminates the possibility to use them in pvp anyways...
I dont understand where this is going, why should i risk my incredible expensive ship for a rang bonus? I would use them in PvE if they would be usable as a nice Long range dps boat with Carrier like dps, but like this i dont see a scenario where the new Marauders would fit in. Correct me if i am wrong. ;D
Greetings |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
370
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:31:00 -
[2557] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
I like that approach. :)
@F&I crowd: GUYS, WHINE MORE! AND LOUDER! WE NEED THAT 30% BONUS BACK!  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:32:00 -
[2558] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right?
Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
370
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:35:00 -
[2559] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.
Lol, I'm sure once you're rich enough you won't need to refit anymore, you just have a ship for each possible fitting.
And a backup.  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:40:00 -
[2560] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. I Gota say man, I don't envy your position right now. what's that saying "Hell hath no fury like the scorn of a sp/isk invested mmorpg community" If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
252
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:45:00 -
[2561] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
Yes, truly the epitome of practicality, giving a web strength bonus to a ship that also has a role bonus to a module that jumps you 100km in any direction. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1501
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:48:00 -
[2562] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
147
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:48:00 -
[2563] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. I like that approach. :) @F&I crowd: GUYS, WHINE MORE! AND LOUDER! WE NEED THAT 30% BONUS BACK!  I'm right there with ya! And the 7.5% rep bonus back, too!
And to hell with the incursion bears ****** web. |

sten mattson
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:49:00 -
[2564] - Quote
web bonus is back! me likey!
now the only thing you need for the paladin to be perfect is to roll the capacitor capacity bonus into the hull like you did with the regular apoc years ago and put in a useful bonus!
im a little sad to see the armor tanking bonus go , since this will mean that the hyperion will be the only battleship with that particular bonus, but since t2 resists are back i cant really complain.
IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |

Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:52:00 -
[2565] - Quote
Please diversify more. I don't like the idea of a web bonus on shield tankers. Thanks.
|

Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:55:00 -
[2566] - Quote
@CCP
I have a question regarding the weapons timer on the bastion module and how this will effect Maruaders.
Currently, the mini-siege cycle is 60secs. Does this weapons timer that comes from activating the module mean that I would have to wait an additional minute of "deaggressing" after the mini-siege cycle ends before I could jump through the gate or dock up?
If this is the case, this will need to be looked at. If I'm forced in a situation where I need to deaggress from the "super awesome" repping of bastion mode because there are to many people or to much incoming DPS, I'm now forced to wait another minute outside of bastion mode....
I believe there is some missing logic there. Especially when you consider the fact that you took away the native repping bonuses from the hulls. Just for some basic comparison, my dual rep armor BS (no native rep hull bonuses)with legion boost and strong exile booster couldn't tank a Cruise phoon, sleipnir, prophecy, 2 caracals, and gate guns. Now you expect me to take a 1bil BS so I can lose that due to lol active tanking and reduced boost efficiency.
Round 3 is waiting CCP, go find it and bring it to us so we can give you guys some praise.
|

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 14:56:00 -
[2567] - Quote
What this thread most reveals is the need for a dislike button. Likes received, dislikes received and net like/dislikes. Even including Harry's posting this thread has been the one where i wanted it most. |

Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:01:00 -
[2568] - Quote
I have not followed this thread very closely, but one thing I noted is that it seems contradictionary to make the ship's sub-Warp speed slower while giving them a bonus to webs which only has a limited range of 10 km for T2 webs - should they not be faster to utilize this bonus efficiently? |

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:04:00 -
[2569] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote: my dual rep armor BS (no native rep hull bonuses)with legion boost and strong exile booster couldn't tank a Cruise phoon, sleipnir, prophecy, 2 caracals, and gate guns.
Yes, this is completely relevant. *cough*
As for feedback on the most recent proposal; what the hell are you doing devs? As someone mentioned before, take a step back and ask yourself what you're trying to achieve with this rebelance and these ships, because at the moment it is all over the place with bonuses/roles/features that do not mesh well, or at all.
Specific feedback on the bastion module? What the hell? I didn't consider it worthwhile at the first iteration, but with the resist removal of the 2nd iteration there is EVEN LESS incentive to use it. immobility and loss of RR potential for 25% range and boost to local rep? Thanks, but no thanks.
As for specific ship feedback, the only ship I can talk about is the paladin that I currently fly. And the current proposal is a hit in the face for the paladin. I'm not even talking about the incompatibility of web + range of bastion, but I am talking about the loss of the tanking boost for an (arguably) useless web boost, in exchange for t2 resists. Not a bad trade a lot of people say, but the paladin's t2 resists do nothing to help against its common missioning enemies (EM/therm). This forces more slot allocation for the tank to reach the same local rep potential outside of bastion mode (which most likely is no longer possible). |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:11:00 -
[2570] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there.
its PVP GAME!!!
What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:14:00 -
[2571] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:What this thread most reveals is the need for a dislike button. Likes received, dislikes received and net like/dislikes. Even including Harry's posting this thread has been the one where i wanted it most. The 'one-line bad idea' thread If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Karak Bol
Crepuscular
104
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:14:00 -
[2572] - Quote
The first iteration was more interesting, more inovative. Webs und everything is just, making marauders more boring. I vote for 30% resis and rep. |

Kaeden Dourhand
T.O.R.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:16:00 -
[2573] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:its PVP GAME!!!
What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP
I heard that if you use more exclamation marks and more capitals your message gets across better and people are more inclined to agree with you.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:17:00 -
[2574] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
And that is exaclty what we are asking. THe mini siege , MJD and range bonus is in NO way pratical with web streght bonus, unless you add some web range bonus.
Change that web bonus into an extra damage bonus and the ship gets focused and logical. |

Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:19:00 -
[2575] - Quote
I guess my question comes down to how does this change affect my current fit?
Quote:[Kronos, Unnamed loadout] Corpus C-Type Large Armor Repairer Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Large Anti-Thermic Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
This gives me 830ish dps out to 90km. Somewhat reasonable locking times and fantastic tracking at close range. This setup also gives an 854dps tank against serpentis.
T2 resists mean that I may only have to use 1 resistance mod and can fit a TE in the low. This frees up a mid slot. The less sucky scan resolution may mean I don't need the sensor booster but I doubt it. So now I have a free med for a web, maybe? More likely a 100AB or 100MWD. I really don't know what CCP is trying to do with the change. T2 resists are welcome. I'm glad I'm not losing my web bonus. The tractor beam bonus is still pants-on-head ********. Close range weapons still aren't viable but they're getting closer. The only stance I can honestly take is "wait and see". |

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
634
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:19:00 -
[2576] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there. its PVP GAME!!! What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP PvP takes so many shapes and forms in Eve-O that your point is pretty moot.
Regardless, I can find many better ships to go pew-pew'ing in that the proposed Marauder. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |

Ejderdisi
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:20:00 -
[2577] - Quote
Ok we will have new fleet doctrines now with Marauders!!
Well they have a useless web bonus but who cares.
Btw didnt you guys in CCP just killed %5 resists to %4 to make RR'ing a little bit less powerful. Btw a cruise golem fleet will kill anything while tanking like BOSS!! no need to use any other BS for fleets.
Change the web bonus back into something damage bonus for the last nail in the coffin  |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:20:00 -
[2578] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there.
Thinking about that, PvE appears to require a mixture of mobility, longrange damage-application and sustained tank. It should be well possible to achieve those traits given the tools as they stand right there. Also want to mention that even with those latest changes, Marauders still won't be contested as c4-blitzers and quite viable to run highclass DEDs. Imo their L4 performance is way less important compared to the specific capabilities in incursions/null/whs, and over there they just rock on a different level with the still remaining defenses, factoring in the bastionthingytransformermoduleTM.
As a positive sideeffect, the highslotallocation can be used not only for tractors/salvagers, but also for highgrade utility.
The Tractorrange should be well enough for most situations, if anything, add a salvagemodule-cycletime reduction to round up the traits.
I wouldn't see any issues with having a twosided rolemodifier, as in MJD cooldown/bastionuse for pvp, and tractorrange/salvagecycles for the relics of pve.
Edit: Lots of contradiction (longrange/webbonus/bastion at all/tractorboni) make for a wonderful, not allt o specialised platform leaving out a lot of playstyle to the way you fit. Me like.
Looking forward to updates! Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:21:00 -
[2579] - Quote
Random not thinked thru idea overheating bastion module further reduce circle time by minor amount.
Also would like to know is animation will affect bastion deployment or is it click=boost. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Alizebeth Phoenix
Gothic Pioneers Shadow of Honor.
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:26:00 -
[2580] - Quote
dafuq? what am i supposed to do with the web bonus on my Golem?
Right now i use the webs with Kronos and Paladin, especially the Kronos because of rails. But i can not see much use on the Golem. And as i understand the Bastion Mode till now it wants me to jump away, go to bastion and fight long range. So why the hell would i want a web?
Even if you resist on giving web bonus... i want a range bonus so i really can use the web!
But to be honest for me this change is even more bad than the whole change itself. I really expected something usefull for me as mission runner and this is not! Of course i will give it a try but as someone who has and uses all 4 marauders i am extremely disappointed, really was expecting something else.
When i want to do some pvp there are so many other ships (also the new balanced BS), that i would never use a marauder... they are for missioning, at least till now. |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:26:00 -
[2581] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:its PVP GAME!!!
What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP I heard that if you use more exclamation marks and more capitals your message gets across better and people are more inclined to agree with you.
Might soudn strange, but it does work. Communication is better understood that way, you know.. exclamation amrks exist for a reason in almost all languages... |

Kasuko Merin
Ravenworks Industrial
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:35:00 -
[2582] - Quote
Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? |

King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
360
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:36:00 -
[2583] - Quote
Late comer to this thread (been inactive for a while) but these proposed changes look good to me. I still don't see any PvP use for the paladin but the Vargur and Golem should be fairly monstrous if you're willing to spend the isk.
PvE wise, they should all be usable. I see the greatly enhanced tank making them a viable solo lvl5 option. The Vargur can already pull it off but these changes should allow the others to as well. Also, I happen to be a fan of the web bonus on the Paladin, it's very handy.
The MJD bonus is an interesting choice but honestly it feels more like a desperate attempt to make that module useful rather than an attempt at sensible bonuses for the ship. It doesn't serve a PvE purpose and for PvP, you wouldn't take a ship like this into a 50+ man fleet where such a device might be handy. Marauders are a squad level ship at most due to price and RR concerns. In such smaller gangs, you will be scrambled thus making the WJD useless. The Troll is trolling. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
337
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:36:00 -
[2584] - Quote
this is funny as hell.
for years gallente pilots have griped about having the rep bonus vs the amarr resist bonus. (not taking sides, just pointing out).
now, atleast for marauder pilots, that has been fixed. i pointed out in my other post that the tank just skyrocketed and folks are griping because they dont get rep bonuses.
ok, so u can heal 39% better. with these resists, you take less damage than you would have needed to rep in the first place. therefore, your point is moot. its even to the point of being silly because when cap runs out with normal resists, you get smoked. now, atleast you can keep resisting and taking less damage than normal. you will even be able to get away if needed and not be scattered all over space because you wouldnt have to rep as much and you would still have cap.
an easy tank on the paladin as i pointed out, is 161k omni in your worst resist (thermal). 225k in your best. thats armor..i dont look at EHP. EHP takes into account hull and shield. i care less about shields and i dont fight in hull. i am going to tank my armor as best as i can and fight there. with these changes, we gain tons of points in our armor...means we can stay longer and kick more butt.
as pointed out, we could tank angel extravaganza all day. imagine that, on stock resists. what do we do with the other 7 low slots?
these resists are a good thing. being an amarr ship lover and embrasing everything resistance based, these are a blessing. my sac tanks like a beast and now we have a bs that can do better due to bastion mode and having tons more armor to start with? whats the problem? we have t2 resistance people! we need less tank for the same effect. THEN we pimp it with bastion mode and have god like tank. t2 resists, double repping in bastion mode, 1 LAR II and 1 LAAR together means they will have a helluva time breakin your tank. 1 LAAR give more than double rep anyway, now you are going to double that in beast mode.
wow.
|

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
269
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:37:00 -
[2585] - Quote
Second iteration on balancing just terrible. They are now worse than they are currently in game in return for the benefit of Bastion.
Initial attempt was much better and at least a reasonable basis for further work.
As you appear to be scratching around for what to with them just keep it simple and just remove the original anti-PvP nerfs to them (fix grid, sensor strength and scan res) and move on to something else for now.
Fear God and Thread Nought |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:39:00 -
[2586] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there. its PVP GAME!!! What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP
Mining Barges and Industrials are even more useless for PVP :O Better get rid of them immedietly |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:40:00 -
[2587] - Quote
Quote:Btw a cruise golem fleet will kill anything while tanking like BOSS!!
Shhhhh... or they will nerf it. New CQ prototype |

Kirluin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:45:00 -
[2588] - Quote
I think adding an all new gameplay style is a good thing. I find PVE to be pretty boring, so adding combat time choices like mjd/bastion mode is a welcome change from the mindless [cookie cutter fit vs rat] -> [target] -> [f1] -> goto 0. My Navy Geddon already does that pretty well.
That being said I like the original bastion mode better... it was truly a Stand and Deliver kind of option. Good for many but not all roles with room to imagine new devilry. Now its more of a "sniper with one foot nailed to the floor" mode, with fewer interesting fit tradeoffs.
Meh.
p.s. can we have a drone focussed one of these? Yes, I'm a Homeworld 2 freak looking for more drone action. |

Nosum Hseebnrido
Beyond Hypothetical Box
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:46:00 -
[2589] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck,
I play this game for 7 years now "7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level" is a dumbest bonus in this entire game. I was finally happy that you decide to remove it from Kronos and Palladin with were NEVER use stasis webifier at all, because it's just pointless to use them with large turret. It's better to fit Tracking Computers instead, but CCP say "noo, it's wonderful bonus, let's give it to all Marauders, they deserve for it".
Undone this change and get rid of this ridiculous bonus once for all .. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
171
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:48:00 -
[2590] - Quote
I think we need to see some Marauder animations. Some REAL ones this time... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
338
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:50:00 -
[2591] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Late comer to this thread (been inactive for a while) but these proposed changes look good to me. I still don't see any PvP use for the paladin but the Vargur and Golem should be fairly monstrous if you're willing to spend the isk.
PvE wise, they should all be usable. I see the greatly enhanced tank making them a viable solo lvl5 option. The Vargur can already pull it off but these changes should allow the others to as well. I admit I will miss the web bonus on the Paladin, it is very handy and currently the only thing it has going for it over a navy geddon.
The MJD bonus is an interesting choice but honestly it feels more like a desperate attempt to make that module useful rather than an attempt at sensible bonuses for the ship. It doesn't serve a PvE purpose and for PvP, you wouldn't take a ship like this into a 50+ man fleet where such a device might be handy. Marauders are a squad level ship at most due to price and RR concerns. In such smaller gangs, you will be scrambled thus making the WJD useless.
the mjd is the best thing since sliced bread for pve.
warp in to a sanctum at 50km, mjd up 100k. now, when folks warp to the sanctum u are at, they are way below you. unleash drone hell from a snake or domi.
plexs in null require room to room. go in, jump up out of range, send missiles or sentry drone lubbin from up on perch out of range of their guns. if they get close, scoup to drone bay, mjd again. if you angle it right, you dont have to travel a bit..just jump up, then back down to gate.
i ran lev 5's with a cnr and an mjd. cruise from 125k, very little resistance/tank needed (because i wasnt there). the neut hurt, but i dealt with it.
use mjd to jump to the sleiper rats in worm holes. once you get your anchor, warp to him, then jump 100km and bypass the frigs and cruisers and jump strait in the lap of the bs's. exploit their lack of tracking by webbing and orbiting the bs out of bastion mode.
most people only see 2d. some see in the 3rd dimension. me, i see in 4d. i can see (and have used) the mjd for all kinds of purposes.
pvp.. i warped to the gate at 50k from my pos. i dropped my sentries then mjd'ed through the gate and was at 50k on the other side. thats torp range for my rattlesnake. when bad guys came in, they see juicy and came after me. i started blasting them with drones from behind em and shot torps. when more showed up. i aligned to the gate (which my pos was on the other side) and i hit "return to drone bay". sentries got ready to be scooped. i hit mjd which put me full throttle. i jumped (because i was pointed and they started in on my tank) and landed on my drones (which auto scooped) and i hit warp to pos. it all happened in 2 seconds. jump, scoop, warp to safety. the snake was beat up a little, but once shields charged, you couldnt tell.
be imaginitivy. you can use these for alot of reasons. gate camping. drones sit still and you just jump around within range and keep killin.
you can stay 100k off the gate in a random direction. if someone comes in you wanna tackle, then jump on em. if not, you have time to get away...
|

Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:55:00 -
[2592] - Quote
I just did a quick comparison of my PVE Golem setup for missions and the proposed changes to the Golem. The current setup involves a cap stable permaboost to shields and cruise missiles. Discounting drones, the dps is the same and the tank is actually better. However, for some reason, CCP has decided to nerf the cap recharge on the Golem so it is no longer cap stable. This can be solved by upgrading the rigs to T2s and it will be cap stable again. From my personal style of play, I can only say that I can only say that with high probability the web bonus is useless and I will never use it. The ship is simply too slow, and in terms of tank it is too costly to make it mobile. The bastion module, however, is more useful for me since I ussually bombard the mission rats from long range and remain quite immobile for the most. I know that my perspective is limited to PVE and that the web bonus quite definitely have good application in PVP (but I still think the ship is too slow), but personally I would like to see a more useful bonus such as the shield boost. Furthermore, I do not think that the HP nerf is warranted, but that is just my opnion. Either way, it will be impossible to satisfy everyone, but there is still a long way to go, so we will have to see what we end up with. I hope that CCP will re-think the ships to make the bonuses more coherent instead of contradictionary such as short range web vs. slow ship (increase web range???). However, there is quite some time for CCP to re-think this several times before the Winter expasion :). |

Otto Weston
Dark Ball of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:56:00 -
[2593] - Quote
CCP - WHY?!?
You make a good module to make a ship worth playing, to make it sound fun for those guys who like tanking (BASTION)... and then you go and gimp the ******* thing (Not 30% bonuses, removing Local rep bonuses etc.).
I just began training for Marauders since I saw the original rebalance thread, and guess what?! You then nerf it, tyvm CCP.. for wasting my time and money now. Everything's Air Droppable at least once. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:59:00 -
[2594] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there. its PVP GAME!!! What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP Mining Barges and Industrials are even more useless for PVP :O Better get rid of them immedietly
That si why in my post i said.. Al l ships with WEAPONS... not all ships....
reading is good... |

Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:09:00 -
[2595] - Quote
Nosum Hseebnrido wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, I play this game for 7 years now "7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level" is a dumbest bonus in this entire game. I was finally happy that you decide to remove it from Kronos and Palladin with were NEVER use stasis webifier at all, because it's just pointless to use them with large turret. It's better to fit Tracking Computers instead, but CCP say "noo, it's wonderful bonus, let's give it to all Marauders, they deserve for it". Undone this change and get rid of this ridiculous bonus once for all ..
CCP call's utilizing the bastion's mass penalty to collapse whs abusement; I call it ingenuity. A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver. |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:11:00 -
[2596] - Quote
I'm getting some really mixed signals here.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:... with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:...
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.
First, webs aren't needed, and even the 90% webs two of the marauders currently have aren't enough. Now, here are some reduced efficiency webs that I've already said you don't need and aren't good enough. Oh and just to make things fair, we're adding them to the other two marauders for ***** and giggles.
I really would rather see some kind of bonus to the effectiveness of target painters rather than webs, personally. Target painters have the advantage of being effective from beyond a maximum of 13km (more frequently 10km) and fit the snipe them down playstyle that seems to be being encouraged here much more adequately.
And I really would rather see the active tank bonus returned, but with t2 resists I can see the rationale behind their removal. |

Roy Hawkinz
R0GUE ENTITY Axiomatic Dominion
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:17:00 -
[2597] - Quote
Let me say how they must become. Don't destroy the marauders make them cool.
Each bastion mode should make the ship transform into a static howitzer platform. Golem: cruise/torp based etc. Race based special.
With a 200% increasement in dmg while offering up some tank like 30/50%. The ships are already good tanked so that don't need to by higher but make them how they should by.
Else please forget the hole bastion module I don't see me using it. Thanks. |

Gal Mart
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:24:00 -
[2598] - Quote
Stopping Marauders at 4 now. I'll just stick to Navy/Pirate versions if this iteration goes live. |

Lixia Saran
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:25:00 -
[2599] - Quote
Can we at least see what they'll look like?
Also, will they blend? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1276
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:31:00 -
[2600] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.
right so first iteration I did not have to choose. .. and now...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Hatsumi Kobayashi
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
268
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:31:00 -
[2601] - Quote
Hahahaha
oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events
ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great STANDING ON THE VERGE OF PROLAPSE |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:32:00 -
[2602] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.
i would agree, but that would mean changing weapons systems as well. Personally i dont think its a huge deal though, the resists i mean. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:35:00 -
[2603] - Quote
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:Hahahaha
oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events
ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great The thought had crossed my mind that hes ******* with the lot of Ye for ***** n giggles If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
832
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:37:00 -
[2604] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.
How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.
lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.
Well have to see. Raw DPS and damage projection are 2 different means to an end. As it stands Pirate faction ships have both. My Mach and RS can rain down fire and sulfur far away, one stronger closer, and one farther away but still both more than the Vargur will be able to do total. So that will mean that they will need to nerf them further to bring them in line. That will utterly suck. It will be the third nerf to the Mach since I started flying it. On a side note, I build pirate faction ships, nerfing the hulls yet again will nerf my income twofold yet again.
The RS needs a mild buff to be in line with its brethern, so buffing that will make it as good as a Mach at what the Mach does. But since the RS is a "Swiss Army Knife" or "Jack of all Trades", that will be bad.
But then I learned a long time ago in Eve; "Fly everything, because they are going to nerf something every time". Eve is Real |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:48:00 -
[2605] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: That si why in my post i said.. Al l ships with WEAPONS... not all ships....
So that discounts Freigters...
However Mining Barges have drones and Indys have Guns/Turrets and both can and have been used for PvP. |

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:50:00 -
[2606] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: The RS needs a mild buff to be in line with its brethern, so buffing that will make it as good as a Mach at what the Mach does. But since the RS is a "Swiss Army Knife" or "Jack of all Trades", that will be bad.
Additional launcher hardpoint please. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1384
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:55:00 -
[2607] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:Second iteration on balancing just terrible. They are now worse than they are currently in game in return for the benefit of Bastion.
Initial attempt was much better and at least a reasonable basis for further work.
As you appear to be scratching around for what to with them just keep it simple and just remove the original anti-PvP nerfs to them (fix grid, sensor strength and scan res) and move on to something else for now.
You are wrong and bad.
Seriously, i remember a time when CCP stated that they weren't going to make battleships with t2 restistances because its a horrible idea and its not interesting.
Don't make a change like this just to make a change.
CCP, If you don't have a solid idea for Marauders, don't change them until you do.
This sort of fumbling in the dark will lead us to a very bad place. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
112
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:02:00 -
[2608] - Quote
I don't know what direction marauders are supposed to be taking any more, and it seems neither does CCP. So many changes coupled with the addition of the bastion module with its set of bonuses doesn't seem to work out while trying to keep all the marauders on even footing for lvl4s, incursions, null PvE, and PvP.
So with proposed changes we have a ship with low mobility that can blink 100km often with range bonuses that seem to push it towards sniping, but then it also gets a massive brick tank and a web bonus that is far more useful point blank. A tractor beam bonus that reaches about half way between the two.
Bastion seems to be in for sure, but I think it should be balanced with itself, not mesh with a nerfed marauder hull or compensate with its shortcomings. FIRST improve the hulls, leave them similar to TQ, retain the fitting buffs, buff sensor strength, maybe T2 resists. THEN do the bastion module pass with much smaller bonuses than currently proposed, maybe even two different modules with one set for defense that nerfs offense and one that does the opposite, or tailored to fighting style (long/short maybe?) |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4574
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:13:00 -
[2609] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. Yes, truly the epitome of practicality, giving a web strength bonus to a ship that also has a role bonus to a module that jumps you 100km in any direction. Well, that's what people were demanding. Go figure. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:14:00 -
[2610] - Quote
this might sound silly but can we get a web range bonus also while you are in bastion mode? maybe 200% range ? |
|

Mr Wiklo
CHOAM Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:16:00 -
[2611] - Quote
Mia Restolo wrote:I don't know what direction marauders are supposed to be taking any more, and it seems neither does CCP. So many changes coupled with the addition of the bastion module with its set of bonuses doesn't seem to work out while trying to keep all the marauders on even footing for lvl4s, incursions, null PvE, and PvP.
So with proposed changes we have a ship with low mobility that can blink 100km often with range bonuses that seem to push it towards sniping, but then it also gets a massive brick tank and a web bonus that is far more useful point blank. A tractor beam bonus that reaches about half way between the two.
Bastion seems to be in for sure, but I think it should be balanced with itself, not mesh with a nerfed marauder hull or compensate with its shortcomings. FIRST improve the hulls, leave them similar to TQ, retain the fitting buffs, buff sensor strength, maybe T2 resists. THEN do the bastion module pass with much smaller bonuses than currently proposed, maybe even two different modules with one set for defense that nerfs offense and one that does the opposite, or tailored to fighting style (long/short maybe?) CCP give this guy a job |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4575
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:19:00 -
[2612] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:@CCP
I have a question regarding the weapons timer on the bastion module and how this will effect Maruaders.
Currently, the mini-siege cycle is 60secs. Does this weapons timer that comes from activating the module mean that I would have to wait an additional minute of "deaggressing" after the mini-siege cycle ends before I could jump through the gate or dock up?
If this is the case, this will need to be looked at. If I'm forced in a situation where I need to deaggress from the "super awesome" repping of bastion mode because there are to many people or to much incoming DPS, I'm now forced to wait another minute outside of bastion mode....
I believe there is some missing logic there. Especially when you consider the fact that you took away the native repping bonuses from the hulls. Just for some basic comparison, my dual rep armor BS (no native rep hull bonuses)with legion boost and strong exile booster couldn't tank a Cruise phoon, sleipnir, prophecy, 2 caracals, and gate guns. Now you expect me to take a 1bil BS so I can lose that due to lol active tanking and reduced boost efficiency.
Round 3 is waiting CCP, go find it and bring it to us so we can give you guys some praise.
That timer isn't likely to go away, otherwise the only use these ships will see is in Incursions (since they ruined them for anything else by demanding a web bonus) and station games.
We don't need a ship that excels at station games. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
224
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:20:00 -
[2613] - Quote
If one of each marauder activates it's repsective bastionmode in the same tick and all are in the same squad, will they form a revenant? Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
711
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:25:00 -
[2614] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard. i would agree, but that would mean changing weapons systems as well. Personally i dont think its a huge deal though, the resists i mean. No, it's not that bad to work around, but it still leaves the ships with less distinction for having to do so. We're talking about ships that are slower, have weaker sensor strength, lower HP, more mass, less drone flexibility and less DPS than damage focused pirate ships.
The kronos will be the poster child of obsolete any time you want your ship to move. The Paladin's resists mean that for faction specific tanking it gains nothing. And while it's easily made up for, that means you are essentially trading any tank advantage over a nightmare.
Choose the right hull is also a dumb thing to say as it basically is like saying the Paladin shouldn't be used for solo PvE, and we all know the amarr need fewer decent PvE ships. Right? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4575
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:28:00 -
[2615] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Late comer to this thread (been inactive for a while) but these proposed changes look good to me. I still don't see any PvP use for the paladin but the Vargur and Golem should be fairly monstrous if you're willing to spend the isk.
PvE wise, they should all be usable. I see the greatly enhanced tank making them a viable solo lvl5 option. The Vargur can already pull it off but these changes should allow the others to as well. Also, I happen to be a fan of the web bonus on the Paladin, it's very handy.
The MJD bonus is an interesting choice but honestly it feels more like a desperate attempt to make that module useful rather than an attempt at sensible bonuses for the ship. It doesn't serve a PvE purpose and for PvP, you wouldn't take a ship like this into a 50+ man fleet where such a device might be handy. Marauders are a squad level ship at most due to price and RR concerns. In such smaller gangs, you will be scrambled thus making the WJD useless. MJD's are a very commonly used module for PVE, especially on drone boats. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Xaen
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:30:00 -
[2616] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.
Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
[/list]
Awwww :(
That would have been the ultimate blueball maneuver. I was so looking forward to doing it. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:32:00 -
[2617] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there.
yeah in this game PVE is also pvp even in high sec, you can get ganked by pirates especially when you are hauling mission loots to sell. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:32:00 -
[2618] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
I would personally like both tested. +1
In the end I think you need to fold some of the bonus into the Bastion Module, and make 2 versions
One version for brawling, the other for Range, and let both be fit like a dual prop where only one can be active. Immobile while either module is active.
Range version: Much like the current version, Increase range (+50%) and add damage (+20), + 300% range of tractors (remove from hull bonus) keep EWAR immunity and lighter than original proposal tank. Can deactivate for -100percent range de-buff for 30-60 seconds, cannot recieve RR like original. Tank bonus should be something like +50 percent repper or +20% hp, +10% resist profile. The damage and range +EWAR immunity is the reason to use, plus the ability to turn off. Drawback is severely decreased range for a de-buff if you deactivate or when the cycle ends. Turning the module back on removes de-buff. Cannot activate more than once every 60 seconds.
Brawling version: Increases tracking (30%) and Rate of Fire (20%), add web bonus of 75% increased velocity factor (not on hull), keep EWAR immunity and have the original proposal tank. Cannot deactivate this module for duration or receive RR like original proposal. Draw of this module is highly increased damage potential + huge tank with the inability for targets to run from you. Drawback is your stuck in place for 60 seconds and can be bumped out of alignment and nueted.
Make the module the star, or people won't use them.
I really like the painter bonus on the Golem, but I personally feel it should go by by for an explosion radius buff. Also, don't make these ships easier to lock down than the current ships. They are battleships, you don't need to nerf the speed or align times so severely if the module locks you into place for 60 seconds.
I am have been pretty ok with most of the balance changes, and I have every confidence you will give us something cool to fly, but I just want to make sure that the concept is cohesive, fun and worth using in multiple situations as the original proposal is unique. 2 separate bastion modules would go a long way to help this. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:33:00 -
[2619] - Quote
Mr Wiklo wrote:Mia Restolo wrote:I don't know what direction marauders are supposed to be taking any more, and it seems neither does CCP. So many changes coupled with the addition of the bastion module with its set of bonuses doesn't seem to work out while trying to keep all the marauders on even footing for lvl4s, incursions, null PvE, and PvP.
So with proposed changes we have a ship with low mobility that can blink 100km often with range bonuses that seem to push it towards sniping, but then it also gets a massive brick tank and a web bonus that is far more useful point blank. A tractor beam bonus that reaches about half way between the two.
Bastion seems to be in for sure, but I think it should be balanced with itself, not mesh with a nerfed marauder hull or compensate with its shortcomings. FIRST improve the hulls, leave them similar to TQ, retain the fitting buffs, buff sensor strength, maybe T2 resists. THEN do the bastion module pass with much smaller bonuses than currently proposed, maybe even two different modules with one set for defense that nerfs offense and one that does the opposite, or tailored to fighting style (long/short maybe?) CCP give this guy a job And this man a cookie If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Dave Stark
3557
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:34:00 -
[2620] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"? |
|

Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:34:00 -
[2621] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard. right so first iteration I did not have to choose. .. and now...
I wonder if you realize that roughly half of Sansha and Blood Raider damage is thermal. And that something like, say, the proposed 80% base thermal resist on a GolemGÇöjust for exampleGÇöactually goes quite a long way towards mitigating that damage. Fit two EM Ward Fields and you're good to go. Hell, you could even add an Invul, but it's probably entirely unnecessary because, because Bastion + thermal resist means you'll be tanking way more with the proposed changes than you are now, and very likely using fewer tanking mods to do it.
To wit: consider a current Golem fit to take on Sanshas (avg. dps: ~52% EM, ~47% thermal). A five-slot tank of 2 EM Ward Field II, 1 Thermic Dissipation Field II, a faction XLSB, and a faction SBA, will net you a tank of 1128.1 EHP/s maximum.
With the proposed changes, you can drop the Thermic Dissipation Field II, leaving you with a 4-slot tank (plus Bastion mod). Outside of Bastion, your tank will be 944 EHP/s, which is still respectable. But in Bastion, that number jumps to 1887.9 EHP/s, which blows the current Golem out of the water.
tl;dr proposed changes have superior local tank in Bastion compared with the status quo, regardless of incoming rat damage type. Please complain about something else. |

marVLs
398
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:36:00 -
[2622] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium maybe You can prepare few versions of them (at least 3) then show to public so everyone can say something about what's cool in this idea, and what about this, and what's bad, maybe some cool combinations etc. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:37:00 -
[2623] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"? More of a diplomatic way of saying we haven't a clue how to avoid roving nerds with pitchforks and torches... If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ivan St
Ascending Phoenix 2.0
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:38:00 -
[2624] - Quote
Deploy mode? That sure is a double- edged sword^^
Because you are stuck and can't do anything to run away while the 60 second timer is running  Sure, you have a better tank and better range, but you aren't able to move and an easy target for anyone who wants to gank you and pve ships tend to have VERY expensive fits and are thus a popular target for gankers
So a ganker has easy work with the Golem because:
1) not moving and large target--> receives pretty much full damage
2) PVE tank (PVE tanks ALWAYS suck at PVP and vice versa)
3) High alpha strike ships as the Maelstrom or the tornado can tear it apart before concord arrives (most missionrunners are in 0.5 space for the best rewards--> plenty time for the kill till concord arrives)
4) Cannot escape and even if the timer runs out just when the gankers arrive, you are in a battleship, it needs time to align and speed up for warp
5) While they gank you, the dps from the rats doesn't just disappear, it adds to the dps of the ganker(s)
6) Nobody can help you (important in pvp), so I doubt it's gonna be used in fleet battles as it'd be a suicide button (no help from logistics, remember?)
You sure can use it if you are somewhere in highsec where aren't many people or deep within your alliance's territory, but always consider that you are risking a ship that costs with fit between 1 and 3 billion ISK, depending on how rich/crazy you are |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1277
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:43:00 -
[2625] - Quote
Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?
certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:45:00 -
[2626] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
What I don't get is why don't you answer the central question people are asking. What role should the marauder fulfill within tiericide? What features do you want to focus on? Once this is clear we can work/discuss together on the best compromise. And maybe you could tackle some questions, e.g. why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers. That would be very helpful, thx
|

Dave Stark
3558
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:46:00 -
[2627] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....
well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot... where's the incentive to use a marauder? |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:46:00 -
[2628] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. The changes to the resist profiles seem fair and offset the loss of 30% across in bastion mode for a bit more flexibility. The stasis webifier bonus in exchange for the local repair bonus?Beyond the fact that neither bonus is directly related in their role....the only ships that remotely gain from this are the exact ships that currently have them. The Golem and Vargur are getting shorted in this respect. Why not give them racial weapons specific bonuses to damage application rather than stasis web bonuses. How about a sensor strength/scan resolution bonus instead if you are not inclined to put damage based bonuses. That would both make the ships viable PVP platforms if you added that to these changes minus the web bonuses. Also how about an additional 10% tractor range and velocity to offset the base speed nerf for the solo PVE mission people. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2593
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:53:00 -
[2629] - Quote
A few thoughts:
T2 Resists combined with a 30% resist bonus from a bastion is too much.
A Vargur: DCU, 3x Shield Hardeners, 2x Resist Rigs, Links, has 3 extra mids and 85-90% resists across the board. A Golem, DCU, 3x Shield Hardenrs, 1 Resist Rig, Links, has 4 extra mids and 80-90% resists across the board. A Kronos, DCU, 3x Hardeners, 2x Resist Rigs, Links, has 3 extra lows and 80-90% resists across the board. A Paladin, DCU, 3x Hardeners, 1x Resist Rig, Links, has 4 extra lows and 80-90% resists across the board.
And these are before any 30% bastion resist bonus.
Combine this with EWAR Immunity, 82.5% webs, and runnaway MJD's, and these are very hard to hold and tank small fleets. Combine with the MJD-Cloak trick (== Fool proof, bubble proof, MWD-Cloak Trick), and you have a mobile Nullsec plex beast.
In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.
At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out! |

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
833
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:58:00 -
[2630] - Quote
Xaen wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.
Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
[/list] Awwww :( That would have been the ultimate blueball maneuver. I was so looking forward to doing it.
^^this^^
Eve is Real |
|

Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
408
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:00:00 -
[2631] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. With these proposed changes, I suggest selling all Marauders.
If you want to listen to players, please don't listen to trolls. These changes aren't just shoddy, they make the ships unable to perform what they currently do. The marauders need their tanking abilities for PvE as it stands, and if they only have that in Bastion then ... well, let's just say I don't think a lot of Bastion modules would be fitted. Especially not when activating said module is a death sentence in PvP (Now more than before) and a sitting duck in PvE.
I'd like to make it clear that the proposed changes are making the ship unviable for the price you're paying, both in terms of survivability, cost and training. I don't care about webbing inside 10km in PvE (The Marauders can have light drones, y'know), and in PvP you'l be better off with a 5m ship webbinghostiles than a 1b ship.
Please, DON'T make these specific changes. If you're listening, don't listen to trolls. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1277
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:01:00 -
[2632] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?
tractor beams duh... lol...
no but seriously i was more happy with version 2.0... 3.0 is really meh to me... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1277
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:03:00 -
[2633] - Quote
honestly if you want to keep tech II resist profile i guess that is ok... just give me a 30% increase to null resistance and i will be fine. i was really banking on those resists to get me threw LAAR reload time.
also change the web bonus to a range bonus and build it into the bastion mod and give me 5% to active tank if you feel 7.5% would be op. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
833
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:04:00 -
[2634] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: A few thoughts:
T2 Resists combined with a 30% resist bonus from a bastion is too much.
A Vargur: DCU, 3x Shield Hardeners, 2x Resist Rigs, Links, has 3 extra mids and 85-90% resists across the board. A Golem, DCU, 3x Shield Hardenrs, 1 Resist Rig, Links, has 4 extra mids and 80-90% resists across the board. A Kronos, DCU, 3x Hardeners, 2x Resist Rigs, Links, has 3 extra lows and 80-90% resists across the board. A Paladin, DCU, 3x Hardeners, 1x Resist Rig, Links, has 4 extra lows and 80-90% resists across the board.
And these are before any 30% bastion resist bonus.
Combine this with EWAR Immunity, 82.5% webs, and runnaway MJD's, and these are very hard to hold and tank small fleets. Combine with the MJD-Cloak trick (== Fool proof, bubble proof, MWD-Cloak Trick), and you have a mobile Nullsec plex beast.
In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.
At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out!
With a full 100% boost to reps this shouldn't be an issue.
Eve is Real |

Sarmatiko
1422
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:14:00 -
[2635] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: The web bonus is not a bad thing, it just doesn't make any sense with the bastion module on as the main damage projection bonus is not a factor within web range. The original proposal made sense. Yitterbium stated you could hit out to 50-60km with null. Unless the frig has transversal your going to blap him at that range. The web bonus would make more sense if you could use it out to 50km+ where all these ships can hit even with their respective short range systems. The proposal (outside of the tractor beam bonus) had great fusion and weaknesses to balance the strengths.
^this
CCP Ytterbium, switch 100% Tractor beam role bonus to 100% Web range, and it's a deal  -¥ |

Snoodaard Thrasy
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:17:00 -
[2636] - Quote
Remove the repping bonus in favor of the web? 
Time to sell my PVE Paladin!
Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach The Scriptures, Amarr Askura 10:3 |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:24:00 -
[2637] - Quote
Although some hulls receive a tanking bonus based on the racial resist profile, the Paladin is losing out with these changes. I have a hard time coming up with a brawling scenario that the new Paladin would be better in than the TQ version as far as PVE goes. The only way to achieve the same levels of tanking with the new version is to enter bastion mode. So against sansha/BR rats it looks like:
old: 137.5% reps new: 200% reps (no help from T2 resists)
Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:
old: 137.5% reps versus 30-50% possible NPC damage new: 200% reps versus 80-100% possible NPC damage
Basically this causes a problem where if you relied on the extra 37.5% repair amount to either keep up with incoming damage or to allow you to pulse your reps to maintain some cap stability you will be unable to do either of those things even while in bastion.
There is also the issue that besides the rep bonus, bastion mode no longer really provides anything to support the brawling playstyle. The range bonus isn't really necessary. The web bonus is on the hull. There's EWAR immunity but the big ones affecting brawler's being web/scram you are basically applying to yourself anyways while in bastion mode.
Can someone better at this than I am provide a reasonable scenario where the new Paladin would be better than the TQ one if brawling fit? |

Flyinghotpocket
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
173
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:24:00 -
[2638] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4
THIS |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:30:00 -
[2639] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?
Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind.
I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
226
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:32:00 -
[2640] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.
I'd rather like them to not do that. For them to not jump, you'd need to be within the 12/15something scramrange you can normally get out of your ship, that already is close to the 14km(19/25) a marauder could use to start stopping you. If you were to significantly increase the webrange, marauders would be very safe in those situations.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out!
They got a big hold and require little ammo, so you could have quite some time. Remember the shield booster /armor repair system is twice as efficient :P Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |
|

Trendafil
Str8ngeBrew RAZOR Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:34:00 -
[2641] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
Role bonus: 100% Damage / T2 Resists
Battleship Bonus: 5% Damage and 10% Range (optimal / falloff / missile speed) per level Marauder Bonus: 5% Rate of fire and 7.5% Tracking / Exp velocity
Bastion Module: Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% (as originaly posted with all the cooldowns and restrictions)
+50% Reduction in local rep cap consumption
PvE Out of Bastion: High resists with high dmg projection will be the ship of choice for group content like incursions, WHs and so on. PvP Out of Bastion: High resists and high dmg projection, utility high slots to spare. Will give the other faction battleships good competition for a spot in the fleet.
PvE using Bastion: Suited for solo or smaller groups. The improved resist profile and the repair boost will compensate for the lack or remote reps and make it a viable choice PvP using Bastion: Small gang and solo pvp
This way the ship will be viable choice for both PvP and PvE with or w/o the Bastion. If you want you have fun with friends grab a marauder w/o a Bastion module and have a logi with you. If you are alone, put a bastion and have all the tank you need to overcome the nasty NPCs.
|

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1189
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:35:00 -
[2642] - Quote
The bastion module is a nice idea, what is a true bad idea is to add resistances to this module when those should be included in the ship hull it self, specially for a T2 hull of such price tag/skill training intensive.
Does everything in Eve needs to be either easy to train/fluffy fun to use and everything else requiring planning/dedication true trash or penalizing at the point it spends more time log off/dock than playing with?
Seriously guys, when are you thinking about rewarding long term playing and skill planning? -2025 ? *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4577
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:36:00 -
[2643] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"? Honestly, I think it's more like "We have theory crafted several different options that would not imbalance game play. We'd like to bounce a few off of you to see which you like best."
Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2596
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:38:00 -
[2644] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:zbaaca wrote:i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4 THIS
Because Marauders get 19 slots and 2 rigs. Because Normal BS's get 19 slots and 3 rigs. Because Navy & Faction BS's have 20 and 3 rigs.
Drone Bonused ships generally get 1 less slot.
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4577
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:39:00 -
[2645] - Quote
Quote:Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:
T2 resists. 100km travel time after MJD and range bonus. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Deliram
BuBBleZ UP Northern Associates.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:40:00 -
[2646] - Quote
CCP you already made the tiercide.... one little step further? Swap the hull of the KRONOS and the hull of the SIN? I mean, i love gallente battleships because they have more drones usage than the others on averange, now you're taking all away from the marauder? It's this only me?! Why not giving the the bastion module a bonus like added 20-40% to drone dmg, tracking and optimal? Or why you don't keep the SIN like it is, and make the kronos a BIT different in his class AGAIN? I mean let it use the drones, it's the trademark of the Gallente pve(and sometimes pvp) fleet. |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:40:00 -
[2647] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:zbaaca wrote:i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4 THIS and also this TFI 8/5/7 Vargur 8/6/5 TFI and this ANI 8/4/ 8 Paladin 8/4/ 7and this MNI 8/4/ 8 Kronos 8/4/ 7looks like all advanced battleships have 1 low slot less, except winmatar ofc
I would like Golem with 8/8/4 Paladin 8/4/8 Kronos 8/4/8 Vargur 8/6/6
New CQ prototype |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:41:00 -
[2648] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"? Honestly, I think it's more like "We have theory crafted several different options that would not imbalance game play. We'd like to bounce a few off of you to see which you like best." Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?
While its nice that they have, there is a bit of this going on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuHLvlPqaw&feature=youtube_gdata_player I'd have liked to see a test run of it b4 the feedback started
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:41:00 -
[2649] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:zbaaca wrote:i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4 THIS Because Marauders get 19 slots and 2 rigs. Because Normal BS's get 19 slots and 3 rigs. Because Navy & Faction BS's have 20 and 3 rigs. Drone Bonused ships generally get 1 less slot.
I mean.. golem is shitloads of drone bonused, I use it as sentry boat and field 20 sentrys at once!!! dafuq |

Dave Stark
3560
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:43:00 -
[2650] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder? Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind. I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts.
i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about.
the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs. t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus. bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions. nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them. sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour.
I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships. |
|

Dave Stark
3560
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:44:00 -
[2651] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?
sure. it'd also be nice if they took a moment to produce a coherent set of options, though. the marauder suggestions, and iterations so far have been very incoherent. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:47:00 -
[2652] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder? Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind. I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts. i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about. the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs. t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus. bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions. nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them. sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour. I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships. Now that's funny If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
833
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:47:00 -
[2653] - Quote
I get a lot of "you're doing it wrong" when I say I just sit there and tank in BS PvE. But the fact is, you can just sit there and tank it as is. The boost to repping will allow you to do so with even less slots, allowing for more damage application. If I can get a similar completion time in my Vargur/Golem to my Mach/TFI while also salvaging it will be a very nice upgrade.
As far as PvP is concerned there's not much battleship speed tanking going on as is. The changes make the Marauder useable in PvP compared to what it is now. The resists help for when they are able to get reps. Eve is Real |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:50:00 -
[2654] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like: T2 resists. 100km travel time after MJD and range bonus.
I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP.
I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:52:00 -
[2655] - Quote
My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost. This include ability to move with bastion module on, just without ability to warp, dock and jump.
Script nr1 - For boosting EW abilities and movement (more pvp oriented) * 70% cooldown bonus on MJD * 50% reduction in MWD cap usage * 100% stasis web optimal range * 25% to scan resolution * 25% to agility * 25% to tracking and missile explosion velocity
Script nr2 - For boosting long range abilities, tank and dps (more pve oriented) * 25% to turret optimal/missile velocity and turret falloff/missile flight time * 25% to damage of large turrets, torpedoes and cruise missiles * 100% to shield and armor repair amount * 25% cap reduction of local armor reps and shield boosters * 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams and salvagers
Both scripts: * Unable to warp with working bastion module * Unable to be remote assisted in any way
Marauders role bonus can be: * 100% to missile and turret damage * Immunity to EW and Defender Missiles (some hidden bonus adding HP to our missiles making them well protecred against defenders and smartbombs) |

Sarmatiko
1424
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:52:00 -
[2656] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote:why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers. Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they like BD&SM in PVE. Or simply they don't have any clue.
-¥ |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:57:00 -
[2657] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost.
This is the most common suggestion in the thread and has my money as the best way forward, adds versatility and diversity.
The specifics need refining by a LONG THUROUGH playtest and more feedback but its definitely got my money If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4577
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:58:00 -
[2658] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder? Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind. I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts. i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about. the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs. t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus. bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions. nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them. sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour. I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships. I think you are correct, I don't think that was ever the intention. Now for missions, anoms, and belts either iteration would make sense to one degree or another.
I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4577
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:08:00 -
[2659] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like: T2 resists. 100km travel time after MJD and range bonus. I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP. I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in. And double active repair.
It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:09:00 -
[2660] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost. This include ability to move with bastion module on, just without ability to warp, dock and jump.
Script nr1 - For boosting EW abilities and movement (more pvp oriented) * 70% cooldown bonus on MJD * 50% reduction in MWD/MJD cap usage * 100% stasis web optimal range * 25% to scan resolution * 25% to agility * 25% to tracking and missile explosion velocity
Script nr2 - For boosting long range abilities, tank and dps (more pve oriented) * 25% to turret optimal/missile velocity and turret falloff/missile flight time * 25% to damage of large turrets, torpedoes and cruise missiles * 100% to shield and armor repair amount * 25% cap reduction of local armor reps and shield boosters * 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams and salvagers * 100% more cap usage of MWD (making them more like stationary/slow moving turret for balance reasons)
Both scripts: * Unable to warp, dock and jump with working bastion module * Unable to be remote assisted in any way with working bastion module
Marauders role bonus can be: * 100% to missile and turret damage * Immunity to EW and Defender Missiles (some hidden bonus adding HP to our missiles making them well protecred against defenders and smartbombs) I like this idea. |
|

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2596
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:09:00 -
[2661] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:zbaaca wrote:i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4 THIS Because Marauders get 19 slots and 2 rigs. Because Normal BS's get 19 slots and 3 rigs. Because Navy & Faction BS's have 20 and 3 rigs. Drone Bonused ships generally get 1 less slot. I mean.. golem is shitloads of drone bonused, I use it as sentry boat and field 20 sentrys at once!!! dafuq
A Marauder is a T2 Hull, it is NOT a Navy or Faction Hull.
The "drone bonused ships generallgy get 1 less slot" explains why the Domi and Geddon are 18 slot ships instead of 19 slot ships. It explains why the Rattlesnake is 19 slots instead of 20.
Remember, Carriers get 16, Supercarriers get 18, and Titans get 21.
Now, we could compare HACs (15 slot base) and T1 Cruisers (14 slot base) and Faction Cruisers (15 slot base) and Combat Recons (15 slots) and Force Recons (14 slots) to try and come up with some pattern to justify giving all Marauders 20 slots, but screw the trends. Let CCP balance the ships to be of appropriate power, as the Hull bonuses are far more important.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:10:00 -
[2662] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I think you are correct, I don't think that was ever the intention. Now for missions, anoms, and belts either iteration would make sense to one degree or another.
I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.
For mission running, as Amarr, T2 resists are worthless. That they are in exchange for the 37.5% tanking bonus makes them less than worthless. |

Dave Stark
3565
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:11:00 -
[2663] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.
standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp.
i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on.
if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get...
edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII
new stats are: 75 em 75 therm 90 kin 69 exp
we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference.
a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are: 74 em 72 therm 72 kin 77 exp |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
341
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:11:00 -
[2664] - Quote
i wonder what would happen if you entered bastion mode 10 seconds before a pos anchored and who would win when the shields came up?
immobile object verses an unstoppable force? would the shields bend around you? when you come out of beast mode, would you shoot like a bullet across space in a given direction? what if i aligned myself towards the moon and shot out? would i enter the moon?
lolol
good way to make a ss. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4577
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:11:00 -
[2665] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote:why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers. Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE. Or simply they don't have any clue.
Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that.
Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type the assume the ratter won't tanked for).
Always a silver lining.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:15:00 -
[2666] - Quote
Dark Ways wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. I understand the the change from 30% resistance bonus in Bastion Mode to having T2 resists to try to appeal to the PVP/PVE crowd who want the remote reps. What I DO NOT understand is why you are trying to take away the basis of what these ships have been in the local rep bonus. You are taking a ship and adding new skills and modules to get results close to what the ship already had. I for one did not need the target painter on my golem I surely don't need a web now. In your effort to make this ship appealing for use in PVP don't ruin the ship for the PVE crowd who have been using the ship for years.
I use target painters on my golem
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:16:00 -
[2667] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:*snip* And double active repair. It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.
I think it will be enough. However I'm not convinced of the well beyond part. The problem I have is that once bastion mode is active, and nearby NPCs will quickly be within their optimal ranges while you are immobile. This would pretty much guarantee that you receive maximum damage from all NPCs on field. If their damage goes up by 50-100% that double rep amount starts to look pretty bland.
I'd be fine, if not disappointed, if CCP comes back and simply states that these hulls are for sniping with long range weapons and that's that as the bonuses (minus the web) seem to point to just that. However, I'm just trying to make sure that the brawling role isn't neglected. As I said before, this is really only a major problem for the Paladin because the Amarr T2 resist profile is so backwards. The other hulls look to be much improved with the change to T2 resists versus the active tank bonus. |

maGz
Chaos Reborn
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:18:00 -
[2668] - Quote
Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.
Just an idea... |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4581
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:20:00 -
[2669] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:*snip* And double active repair. It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode. I think it will be enough. However I'm not convinced of the well beyond part. The problem I have is that once bastion mode is active, and nearby NPCs will quickly be within their optimal ranges while you are immobile. This would pretty much guarantee that you receive maximum damage from all NPCs on field. If their damage goes up by 50-100% that double rep amount starts to look pretty bland. I'd be fine, if not disappointed, if CCP comes back and simply states that these hulls are for sniping with long range weapons and that's that as the bonuses (minus the web) seem to point to just that. However, I'm just trying to make sure that the brawling role isn't neglected. As I said before, this is really only a major problem for the Paladin because the Amarr T2 resist profile is so backwards. The other hulls look to be much improved with the change to T2 resists versus the active tank bonus. I think the part that is hanging you up specifically is this.
Quote: The problem I have is that once bastion mode is active, and nearby NPCs will quickly be within their optimal ranges while you are immobile. You can jump again within 1 minute. Assuming you kill frigates first (at range) it takes far longer than a minute for any other ship class of NPC to cover 100km. They'll be lucky to get into effective damage range before they are either dead or you simply relocate. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:21:00 -
[2670] - Quote
maGz wrote:Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.
Just an idea... here it is again, I'd be rather surprised if the next iteration isn't something along this line
If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2596
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:23:00 -
[2671] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.
I'd rather like them to not do that. For them to not jump, you'd need to be within the 12/15something scramrange you can normally get out of your ship, that already is close to the 14km(19/25) a marauder could use to start stopping you. If you were to significantly increase the webrange, marauders would be very safe in those situations. Gizznitt Malikite wrote: At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out!
They got a big hold and require little ammo, so you could have quite some time. Remember the shield booster /armor repair system is twice as efficient :P
They do have a big hold, and have enough charges to run for ~10 minutes at full power. But that's really not all that long. Furthermore, neuting these things will turn off active hardeners, which will dramatically reduce their tanks. It will be their primary weakness.
As for the web range bonus... I really think it meshes well with the increased damage projection. I don't think it should have "Recon" level range, but somewhere in the middle.
|

Sigras
Conglomo
523
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:24:00 -
[2672] - Quote
I dont understand why everyone is freaking out about the bastion module and how well it may or may not work in PvP; it isnt as though the module HAS to be used.
Its just like the carrier, sometimes you use triage, other times it turns your ship into a flying coffin . . .
As it stands right now, I can see these ships warping in at 100 and sniping, then using the MJD to escape when anyone gets too close.
If you had some tackle frigates to keep fast interceptors off, you could easily just keep MJDing away from everyone and they'd never catch up to you, especially if youre MWDing away from them as soon as you land. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
713
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:25:00 -
[2673] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like: T2 resists. 100km travel time after MJD and range bonus. I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP. I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in. And double active repair. It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode. Beyond what you need isn't enough. There are several ships that perform beyond necessity but aren't used because others do it better. As I said before, I don't want to have to have bastion(+MJD) just to have a complete competitive ship. T2 resist alone won't give us that. We have 2 examples of where the benefit of those resists are marginalized by factional rat damage output, one of which can't just change to another target without wasting damage into high resists.
And really, given gank > tank, T2 resists still fall short of making the ships competitive. Best case they help RR, and for 2 ships give a minor advantage to what they already had tank wise. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
713
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:29:00 -
[2674] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I dont understand why everyone is freaking out about the bastion module and how well it may or may not work in PvP; it isnt as though the module HAS to be used.
Its just like the carrier, sometimes you use triage, other times it turns your ship into a flying coffin . . .
As it stands right now, I can see these ships warping in at 100 and sniping, then using the MJD to escape when anyone gets too close.
If you had some tackle frigates to keep fast interceptors off, you could easily just keep MJDing away from everyone and they'd never catch up to you, especially if youre MWDing away from them as soon as you land. There are ways to make anything work, but that doesn't explain why you should use a marauder. And while this could be useful, is it worth the effort compared to alternatives and will it really play out the way you want it to? |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2596
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:30:00 -
[2675] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists. standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp. i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on. if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get... edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII new stats are: 75 em 75 therm 90 kin 69 exp we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference. a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are: 74 em 72 therm 72 kin 77 exp
Test is on HACs...
Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU. Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU. Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU. Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU (These include Links). |

Dave Stark
3565
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:34:00 -
[2676] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists. standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp. i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on. if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get... edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII new stats are: 75 em 75 therm 90 kin 69 exp we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference. a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are: 74 em 72 therm 72 kin 77 exp Test is on HACs... Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU. Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU. Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU. Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU (These include Links).
ishtar gets the same resist profile with the same modules as the astarte does.
also, the resist profiles i stated are without links because for incursions you want 70% omni, before links usually. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
713
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:35:00 -
[2677] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists. standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp. i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on. if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get... edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII new stats are: 75 em 75 therm 90 kin 69 exp we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference. a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are: 74 em 72 therm 72 kin 77 exp Test is on HACs... Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU. Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU. Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU. Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU (These include Links). NVM |

Dave Stark
3565
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:43:00 -
[2678] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I believe he's running shield, as such EM hardner + DCU falls short (Kronos)
yep, if you want a reason why armour tanks for incursions are bad. ask dark nefarious (or is it darth nefarious? like i care...) he's well versed in the excuses reasons why |

blarggg
MuffinMen
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:45:00 -
[2679] - Quote
Why not make a PVE module and a PVP module instead of trying to balance it into one?
Also this is more of a side note but removing the resistance profile on the bastion module kinda takes away from it being a bastion.
Quote:A bastion is an angular structure projecting outward from the curtain wall of an artillery fortification. The fully developed bastion consists of two faces and two flanks with fire from the flanks being able to protect the curtain wall and also the adjacent bastions.[1] It is one element in the style of fortification dominant from the mid 16th to mid 19th centuries. Bastion fortifications offered a greater degree of passive resistance and more scope for ranged defense in the age of gunpowder artillery compared with the medieval fortifications they replaced. -wiki(Bastion)
fortification -imobile Greater passive resistance- 30% resist (first real hull tank viable ship?) 90% with damage control it really was turning you into a wall more scope for ranged defense- optimal and falloff increase
not that im complaining about T2 resists they need that for a long time but i thought using the module to do it was cooler.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:45:00 -
[2680] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:maGz wrote:Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.
Just an idea... here it is again, I'd be rather surprised if the next iteration isn't something along this line Frankly, that's the easiest way out of this mess for the Devs, and it is consistent with the way such modules work for caps:
Keep T2 Resists, Keep Web/TP bonus
Marauder Module:
Bastion Script: 100% Rep Boost, 20% Resist Boost (see what I did thar?), 25% Opt/Fal/Vel Boost, 25% Tracking/Exp Vel Boost, Remote Reps Blocked.
Assault Script: 100% Remote Rep Range Boost, 200% Web Range Boost, 25% RoF boost, Remote Reps ALLOWED
Boom, and every motherf**er in this thread is happy. |
|

Cadius Vect
Hax. Game Over.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:49:00 -
[2681] - Quote
New web bonus makes literally no sense, if the idea is to MJD to 100km them snipe with increased range from the bastion module then why on earth do you need a bonus to webs.
Literally counter-intuitive bonuses, well done...seriously.
Just keep the local tank bonus that allows for 3 slot tanks.
Removing the local tank bonus makes the ship class worse for people who actually own and use them now and have probably spent the ~50 days training marauders lv5.
Ditch the web bonuses, there's other ships for that. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4582
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:53:00 -
[2682] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like: T2 resists. 100km travel time after MJD and range bonus. I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP. I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in. And double active repair. It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode. Beyond what you need isn't enough. There are several ships that perform beyond necessity but aren't used because others do it better. As I said before, I don't want to have to have bastion(+MJD) just to have a complete competitive ship. T2 resist alone won't give us that. We have 2 examples of where the benefit of those resists are marginalized by factional rat damage output, one of which can't just change to another target without wasting damage into high resists. And really, given gank > tank, T2 resists still fall short of making the ships competitive. Best case they help RR, and for 2 ships give a minor advantage to what they already had tank wise. Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.
Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.
If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:00:00 -
[2683] - Quote
perhaps instead of the T2 resist , why not replace it with a flat 20% resist to all like a rattlesnake. ? this way everyone would be happier |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:04:00 -
[2684] - Quote
+MJD +webs -tank ??? |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
713
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:04:00 -
[2685] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.
Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.
If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss. If the entire design principle was based around MJD+Bastion then the ships are still flawed. No web range bonus means in "proper use" the webs go unused since you should be blapping anything before it gets in range. Yet we get this in place of the native tank bonus which complemented the bastion. The resists help with RR, but again, that isn't proper use since it negates the possibility of using the bastion. So by your logic incursions and RR strategies in high end DED's wasn't intended. You say I want an OP ship, yet the only place this will perform as intended is in solo, unkillable mission brick mode with a single configuration. |

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:05:00 -
[2686] - Quote
As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it.  |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
166
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:06:00 -
[2687] - Quote
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it.  Not at the expense of making it a glass cannon. I'll take a half loaf, but only if they aren't also stealing my cheese. |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:09:00 -
[2688] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:+MJD +webs -tank ??? no profit?  New CQ prototype |

Ewersmen
0 inc
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:16:00 -
[2689] - Quote
Maaloc wrote:And I can't help myself from saying that: are you this low on creativity? Let's give a siege module to all the ships in the game!
I like what this guy said .....^^^^
Wtf do I need webbers on my golem are you ******** .....F*u*c*K ccp just make another bs for you ******** bastion mode .
Gonna sell mine before there stuffed'
To many figjams on this thread |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1280
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:23:00 -
[2690] - Quote
The bastion Mod needs scripts.
This IMO will give us the ability to choose how we want to use the ships
.
I would first remove the web bonus from the hull.
Then i would have one script that increases the effectiveness of webbs and increases tracking/ explosion velocity for missiles
then have a script that increases the range of webs and velocity of missiles and optimal/falloff.
as for what to do with the remaining 4th bonus on the hulls?
i would look at each ship as see what thier niche is and give them a bonus in that direction.
if the kronos is dps then give it a rate of fire bonus
if the pal is lazors give it a tracking bonus
if the vargur is tanking then give it back its tanking bonus
if the golum is missiles then give it a missile velocity bonus (would make torps sick in bastion mode)
so now if you want to use range you can put in the range script and use long range webs and blasters
or if you are going close range you can swap for better close range web and tracking. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:24:00 -
[2691] - Quote
Ewersmen wrote:Maaloc wrote:And I can't help myself from saying that: are you this low on creativity? Let's give a siege module to all the ships in the game! I like what this guy said .....^^^^ Wtf do I need webbers on my golem are you ******** .....F*u*c*K ccp just make another bs for you ******** bastion mode . Gonna sell mine before there stuffed' To many figjams on this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mzqk0BiP0C4 If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:25:00 -
[2692] - Quote
Velocity bonus to webs... on ships with long range as the primary focus... This makes no sense. T2 webs are only 9km range. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:27:00 -
[2693] - Quote
Ok, forget the web bonus for a moment. Given the proposal of leveraging the MJD+bastion combination in a sniping role, what exactly do you fit into the utility high slots? If you jump 100K away from the NPCs every 54 seconds, what can you fit into these slots that will have any effect besides tractors/salvagers with those only working out to 50% of the distance?
- Auto Targeting
- Drone Link Augmentor (for you single flight of lights)
- Cloak
- Nuet/NOS (25.5k range)
- RR (9k range)
- Energy Transfer (9k range)
- Probe Launcher
- Smart Bombs (6k range)
The cloak+probes could be useful leaving 1 slot open for tractor (tractor + salvager if not fitting bastion). The remaining items are so short ranged that if you are using the MJD to jump out and blap over and over they just don't make sense. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:27:00 -
[2694] - Quote
Trendafil wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. Role bonus: 100% Damage / T2 Resists Battleship Bonus: 5% Damage and 10% Range (optimal / falloff / missile speed) per level Marauder Bonus: 5% Rate of fire and 7.5% Tracking / Exp velocity Bastion Module: Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% (as originaly posted with all the cooldowns and restrictions) +50% Reduction in local rep cap consumption PvE Out of Bastion: High resists with high dmg projection will be the ship of choice for group content like incursions, WHs and so on. PvP Out of Bastion: High resists and high dmg projection, utility high slots to spare. Will give the other faction battleships good competition for a spot in the fleet. PvE using Bastion: Suited for solo or smaller groups. The improved resist profile and the repair boost will compensate for the lack or remote reps and make it a viable choice PvP using Bastion: Small gang and solo pvp This way the ship will be viable choice for both PvP and PvE with or w/o the Bastion. If you want you have fun with friends grab a marauder w/o a Bastion module and have a logi with you. If you are alone, put a bastion and have all the tank you need to overcome the nasty NPCs.
wheres the trator beam bonus? i wouldnt fly one if theres no trator beams since cnr is better at killing.
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:31:00 -
[2695] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:perhaps instead of the T2 resist , why not replace it with a flat 20% resist to all like a rattlesnake. ? this way everyone would be happier
I am happy with the tech II resist and it was about time that it happened. Tech II ships without tech II resist make little sense as that's half the point of the ship. That and some extra "specialization". They had to take a hit elsewhere to do it but such is life.
What we didn't ask for was a web bonus on the Golem...
It has a drone bay to deal with frigates (although another 25m3 would be welcomed) and it also has a TP bonus so if you're using the "correct" missiles it won't need (or at least has greatly reduced need for) the webs anyway.
On top of that 7 mids isn't enough for all of that anyway. Unless they bring back a high slot TP...then the user can choose to go that route or go for some tractor beams. (\o/ for real utility highs!)
7 slots, ok...
So I assume at least 1 web, 1 TP, dual prop...there's 4...a shield booster, and boost amp now (so you can tank while out of bastion as well...), now only one mid left...
This is not good. What's going to happen is nobody will fit a web to a Golem anyway so they can use their mids for something a little more useful. Maybe an extra hardener or cap booster or even another TP. So now the ship has a "wasted" bonus that nobody cares about, isn't this one of the reasons for all this work in the first place?
|

xTru
Gladius Veritatis Fidelas Constans
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:31:00 -
[2696] - Quote
I want my marauder skill points back . |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:33:00 -
[2697] - Quote
xTru wrote:I want my marauder skill points back . lol If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4583
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:36:00 -
[2698] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.
Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.
If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss. If the entire design principle was based around MJD+Bastion then the ships are still flawed. No web range bonus means in "proper use" the webs go unused since you should be blapping anything before it gets in range. Yet we get this in place of the native tank bonus which complemented the bastion. The resists help with RR, but again, that isn't proper use since it negates the possibility of using the bastion. So by your logic incursions and RR strategies in high end DED's/WH's wasn't intended. You say I want an OP ship, yet the only place this will perform as intended is in solo, unkillable mission brick mode with a single configuration. Edit: To clarify, an unkillable brick at ranges where an unkillable brick tank isn't needed. Though you can drop the MJD, and thus get your web usage back, but now you are either completely immobile or slow enough to still feel immobile. Well, that's one reason why I don't feel the web bonus is wise.
Basically you can MJD away and snipe from range, moving on when anything gets near... or MJD to range, kill all the tacklers on the way in, and then just stand your ground vs the larger stuff with your tanking bonuses.
Either way, the majority of your slots would not need to be devoted to tank. Instead they could be devoted to damage/damage application modules (I realize this is a bit counter intuitive to many mission runners, ratters, etc, but often more than a minimal tank would be sufficient). Even if you don't get all the tacklers, or if you start to get overwhelmed in damage (because you went a bit too lean on your tank) you just MJD away because NPC"s don't scram.
Fitting in this fashion should yield some pretty nice numbers in the gank dept.
Don't take my points personally, I'm not trying to be snarky at all. Your thoughts are well reasoned. In fact, also agree that this concept needs work to give it a cohesive focus. But either proposal could be used effectively vs. NPC's in most situations (except possibly Incursions) as is if needs be, and have a few PVP applications as well. But I'm with you, I think they could do better to make a sensible package out of it. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:36:00 -
[2699] - Quote
xTru wrote:I want my marauder skill points back .
^ This.
They were cool changed until the update  How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1281
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:36:00 -
[2700] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:
wheres the trator beam bonus? i wouldnt fly one if theres no trator beams since cnr is better at killing.
better at killing what?
does it do more potential dps? how does that dps apply? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
713
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:43:00 -
[2701] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Mer88 wrote:
wheres the trator beam bonus? i wouldnt fly one if theres no trator beams since cnr is better at killing.
better at killing what? does it do more potential dps? how does that dps apply? Don't the both do the same damage with 8 effective launchers? Also the native bonus to explosion radius of the CNR is quite nice as either an alternative of or in addition to TP juggling. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
486
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:45:00 -
[2702] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:xTru wrote:I want my marauder skill points back . ^ This. They were cool changed until the update 
Only the web bonus is stupid. Make it a damage bonus and Absolutely EVERYONE that used Marauders can bennefit from it. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:46:00 -
[2703] - Quote
instead of giving web bonuses to all ships which is pointless too golem how about give 10% bonus to target painters per level for all ships and replace the current golem tp bonus to a 5% radius exp radius bonus per marauder level? This way, the turrent ships can apply their damage better at range also helps out the drone shooting down orbiting frigates. having a web bonus on a slow/immobile BS doesnt seem to make any sense if the only thing that it is going to do is to web frigates. TP would be much better for all BS while in batsion mode. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:50:00 -
[2704] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:xTru wrote:I want my marauder skill points back . ^ This. They were cool changed until the update  Only the web bonus is stupid. Make it a damage bonus and Absolutely EVERYONE that used Marauders can bennefit from it.
Damage bonus would fit in better with the range aspect that I think(?) CCP was going for with the original changes.
However, a tracking bonus would be useful too (for ships that don't already have one) in place of the web since they serve a similar purpose. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:53:00 -
[2705] - Quote
I seriously feel confused. The proposed changes are a mix of long range and short range bonuses, in some case leaning towards short range, but then comes the MJD bonus. What's the concept behind this? Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:56:00 -
[2706] - Quote
Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.
Most PvEer's comments I've seen is "MJD out there and snipe those frigs" Most Incursioners comments I've seen is "Get in there and web those frigs"
The Golem can do neither. Even with Cruise Missiles, the above bonuses, 2x Rigor IIs, 3x RBTPainters and 2x Domination Webs,.. and frigs heading straight towards me, I'm gettin' 423 DPS to 14km and 139 DBS to 45,.. from theoretically 8 Cruise Launchers.
With Torps as we all know,.. it'd be even worse!
Sure Gunnery Marauders can 1-Blap Frigs as they're barreling straight at you, a Vargur has little change in DPS between Frigs, Cruisers and BCs given the "straight at you" situation,.. which can be controlled and reset every 54-57 seconds. The Golem (in my experience) requires Light Drones to deal with frigates. Elite Frigates get pounded as EWAR happens,.. the rest are ignored until I vacuum up a mission site.
Please remove this Web Bonus on the Golem's Hull. While the Target Painting Bonus is useful against Cruisers+,.. the Web Bonus has no use on a ship that can't apply damage to frigates in the first place. A bonus to TORPEDO Velocity would be appreciated,.. because sure, applying Cruise Missile DPS ASAP is great,.. when your targetting range is only 250km,.. and your midslots are tied up with TPs and a new MJD, who has the room for a Sensor Booster.
Do as others have stated and put the web bonus in a script for the Bastion module, I really can't see how webbing frigates will benefit Large Missiles at all,..
Though if someone could point out how I COULD use Webs on frigates with Large Missiles,.. I'm all ears,..
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:57:00 -
[2707] - Quote
Luc Chastot wrote:I seriously feel confused. The proposed changes are a mix of long range and short range bonuses, in some case leaning towards short range, but then comes the MJD bonus. What's the concept behind this?
MJD + falloff/optimal = longe range engagements.
IF things come close --> Serious tank + the ability to kill orbiting stuff with webs.
Clear?
At this point, I still think the golem should get web-range instead of the velocity modifier. Also - change the resist profiles on the Paladin for it's region-specific rats --> perfectly viable ships IMHO. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:59:00 -
[2708] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote:why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers. Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE. Or simply they don't have any clue.  Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that. Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for). Always a silver lining. 
Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).
The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage.
Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that is't weaponry is good against.
Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods.
|

blarggg
MuffinMen
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:01:00 -
[2709] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:xTru wrote:I want my marauder skill points back . ^ This. They were cool changed until the update  Only the web bonus is stupid. Make it a damage bonus and Absolutely EVERYONE that used Marauders can bennefit from it.
agreed!
also i think i've seen over 100 post that ask for scripts on the module and i just skimmed so you can always give the web bonus on one of those? and one that allows movement or the ability to remote repair. just think of marauders with scrips as balanced versions of T3 ships, you can make 4 or 5 scripts with complimentary bonuses and everyone can have what they want.
1:Solo PVP 2: Fleet PVP 3: PVE +salvage 4: PVE blitz 5: Incursion(if fleet pvp doesn't work for it) |

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:02:00 -
[2710] - Quote
Pi Selina wrote:Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.
No no no, the Golem has perfect bonuses for a Core Complexion ship, with all it's misisles and Minmatar EWAR bonuses!
What, you say the Golem is a Caldari Lai Dai ship? This makes absolutely no sense, it fits perfectly with the Bellicose and stuff.
So yeah, the Golem is extremely meh. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:02:00 -
[2711] - Quote
Pi Selina wrote:Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses. Most PvEer's comments I've seen is "MJD out there and snipe those frigs" Most Incursioners comments I've seen is "Get in there and web those frigs" The Golem can do neither. Even with Cruise Missiles, the above bonuses, 2x Rigor IIs, 3x RBTPainters and 2x Domination Webs,.. and frigs heading straight towards me, I'm gettin' 423 DPS to 14km and 139 DBS to 45,.. from theoretically 8 Cruise Launchers. With Torps as we all know,.. it'd be even worse! Sure Gunnery Marauders can 1-Blap Frigs as they're barreling straight at you, a Vargur has little change in DPS between Frigs, Cruisers and BCs given the "straight at you" situation,.. which can be controlled and reset every 54-57 seconds. The Golem (in my experience) requires Light Drones to deal with frigates. Elite Frigates get pounded as EWAR happens,.. the rest are ignored until I vacuum up a mission site. Please remove this Web Bonus on the Golem's Hull. While the Target Painting Bonus is useful against Cruisers+,.. the Web Bonus has no use on a ship that can't apply damage to frigates in the first place. A bonus to TORPEDO Velocity would be appreciated,.. because sure, applying Cruise Missile DPS ASAP is great,.. when your targetting range is only 250km,.. and your midslots are tied up with TPs and a new MJD, who has the room for a Sensor Booster. Do as others have stated and put the web bonus in a script for the Bastion module, I really can't see how webbing frigates will benefit Large Missiles at all,.. Though if someone could point out how I COULD use Webs on frigates with Large Missiles,.. I'm all ears,..
I can 1-2 shot frigates in WC l4 using navy missiles with 2 tp and a web, but still wasting even 1 volley on a frigate is a waste considering the slow rof and high volley missile system has. I am sure with 3 tp you will get the same effect and with the up coming 5 s tp cycle time, i dont even see the purpose of using web. .
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:03:00 -
[2712] - Quote
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:Pi Selina wrote:Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses. No no no, the Golem has perfect bonuses for a Core Complexion ship, with all it's misisles and Minmatar EWAR bonuses! What, you say the Golem is a Caldari Lai Dai ship? This makes absolutely no sense, it fits perfectly with the Bellicose and stuff. So yeah, the Golem is extremely meh.
Thats nonsense.
Golem is quite cool. It's just the web-bonus which is a little weird.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:08:00 -
[2713] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote:why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers. Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE. Or simply they don't have any clue.  Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that. Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for). Always a silver lining.  Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest). The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage. Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that is't weaponry is good against. Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods.
I think he meant while you will be slightly less tank in your paladin pve you will be more protected from suicide ganks as you will have a better omni tank where as a golem will have a huge em hole during their pve missioing while fighting angels or serpentis. most pve missioner wouldnt consider being suicide ganked while in a missiion in high sec so most likely most would not fit EM resist in their golem when fighting angel rats |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
714
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:11:00 -
[2714] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote: Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).
The T2 resist profiles predate the projectile balance that added the damage type flexibility we now have. |

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:16:00 -
[2715] - Quote
Grombutz wrote:Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:Pi Selina wrote:Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses. No no no, the Golem has perfect bonuses for a Core Complexion ship, with all it's misisles and Minmatar EWAR bonuses! What, you say the Golem is a Caldari Lai Dai ship? This makes absolutely no sense, it fits perfectly with the Bellicose and stuff. So yeah, the Golem is extremely meh. Thats nonsense. Golem is quite cool. It's just the web-bonus which is a little weird.
There is no other Caldari ship with a TP bonus, which is, was and always will be a module usually associated with Minmatar hulls. As are stasis webifiers, although Minmatar hulls usually posess stasis webifier range bonuses.
The Golem is downright anomalous (but to be fair, as were/are/will be Paladin and Kronos) in it's bonuses, and I could now go on and on about the design philosophies of the different races and T2 manufacturers, but that would become quite offtopic. |

Fredric Wolf
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:20:00 -
[2716] - Quote
While I agree that the Web Bonus is odd on the Golem I think the best way to make the web bonus work well with this is to give the bastion mod a 300% bonus to range of Webs. This will push a Fed Navy web out to 42k before heat or boosts. This will make the incursion runners happy and also make this bonus work with the increased ranges these ships can now fight at.
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:22:00 -
[2717] - Quote
The problem is that TPs are insanely useful for missiles, yet CCP "gave" them to the wrong race.
Whoops.
They should have been given to Caldari from the start. |

Bruised Mee
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:24:00 -
[2718] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:instead of giving web bonuses to all ships which is pointless too golem how about give 10% bonus to target painters per level for all ships and replace the current golem tp bonus to a 5% radius exp radius bonus per marauder level? This way, the turrent ships can apply their damage better at range also helps out the drone shooting down orbiting frigates. having a web bonus on a slow/immobile BS doesnt seem to make any sense if the only thing that it is going to do is to web frigates. TP would be much better for all BS while in batsion mode.
I still think the web would benefit gunboat more than a TP but i suppose it could work . |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:32:00 -
[2719] - Quote
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it.  70k? scorch on a pulse apoc gets 90km. then add the bastion 25% to optimal/fall off and u have a 135km pulse paladin.
yer lookin at like 200km tachyon paly. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:43:00 -
[2720] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it.  70k? scorch on a pulse apoc gets 90km. then add the bastion 25% to optimal/fall off and u have a 135km pulse paladin. yer lookin at like 200km tachyon paly.
25% stacking penalized. If you run the numbers on the Kronos Ytterbium posted that'll confirm for you.
Also is your 90km at Optimal + Falloff? Because that's half damage right there. |
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4583
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:44:00 -
[2721] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:Crysantos Callahan wrote:why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers. Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE. Or simply they don't have any clue.  Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that. Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for). Always a silver lining.  Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest). The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage. Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that is't weaponry is good against. Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods. I think he meant while you will be slightly less tank in your paladin pve you will be more protected from suicide ganks as you will have a better omni tank where as a golem will have a huge em hole during their pve missioing while fighting angels or serpentis. most pve missioner wouldnt consider being suicide ganked while in a missiion in high sec so most likely most would not fit EM resist in their golem when fighting angel rats Yep, granted that isn't a factor most take into consideration when outfitting their ships for PVE... although considering what a high profile target mission fitted Marauders are for suicide ganks it probably should be.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:49:00 -
[2722] - Quote
Bruised Mee wrote:Mer88 wrote:instead of giving web bonuses to all ships which is pointless too golem how about give 10% bonus to target painters per level for all ships and replace the current golem tp bonus to a 5% radius exp radius bonus per marauder level? This way, the turrent ships can apply their damage better at range also helps out the drone shooting down orbiting frigates. having a web bonus on a slow/immobile BS doesnt seem to make any sense if the only thing that it is going to do is to web frigates. TP would be much better for all BS while in batsion mode. I still think the web would benefit gunboat more than a TP but i suppose it could work .
alternately, instead of a passive tp bonus per skill, we could tie the tp to the bastion module like 50% bonus of tp effectiveness when bastion module is active. I think that gun boats need tracking the most when the ship is sitting still. And if they are sniping at 50km +, they wouldnt even need tp due to low trans vel. ships that gets into range 30km -10km the tp will make sure each shot will be a good one while being immobile lessoning the effect of not being able to move to lower the transverse. on the other hand , this might make the golem too OP  |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1385
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:26:00 -
[2723] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?
t2 res are kind of a big deal..
(Unless you are talking about pve in which case meh, irrelevant) BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

GreenSeed
680
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:27:00 -
[2724] - Quote
web bonuses on a static/slow ship?
no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.
web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.
as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range. |

Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:32:00 -
[2725] - Quote
Put the F*ing Rep bonus back... a web bonus with a stationary ship is a stupid idea |

Count Chamberlain
The Inheritors
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:34:00 -
[2726] - Quote
in light of the recent proposed changes (removal of tanking bonus, adding of Useless Web bonus to a med to long range ship(s))
I would like a skill point re-fund.
This is not a re-balance, this is a Fluff up. |

Michael J Caboose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:43:00 -
[2727] - Quote
I was pretty optimistic when I read the first iteration of the proposed Marauder changes. It wasn't perfect, but it was interesting and innovative, and I could see all sorts of possibilities for creative use in solo and small gang PVP and high end PVE.
But the second iteration is just terrible. The T2 resists are nice, but not worth the cost. Bastion mode is now so gimped that it has no use other than providing ewar immunity in L4s, and all the L33T PVPers who are so enamored of the pointless web bonus and magical T2 resists on these painfully slow lumbering ships are forgetting that these ships STILL have frigate level sensor strength outside of the now even more suicidal Bastion mode. They will be permajammed by almost anything.
|

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
972
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:54:00 -
[2728] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:web bonuses on a static/slow ship?
no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.
web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.
as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range.
lol you don't know what you are talking about. Web bonuses are great, especially on less mobile ships... But a range bonus would be better than the current proposal.
Also, I'm pretty sure a local rep will still be good enough due to the introduction of T2 resists. I'm just here for the likes |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1386
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:57:00 -
[2729] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:web bonuses on a static/slow ship?
no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.
web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.
as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range.
Web bonuses are jsut about the most OP bonus in the game
imho BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2670

|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:05:00 -
[2730] - Quote
Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/ |
|
|

Zolian
Murderous Impulse
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:08:00 -
[2731] - Quote
Don't touch the web bonuses on the Paladin and Kronos. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
624
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:12:00 -
[2732] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
138
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:27:00 -
[2733] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship. E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765
PvP/Direct Combat focused -> Pirate Battleships
Defensive/PvE focused -> Marauders
Speed/Stealth -> Black-Ops Battleships
It makes very little sense to throw a PvP focused ship into a PvE focused ship-line. Even less to make a T2 ship that's flat better than Pirate Faction. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
625
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:14:00 -
[2734] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship. E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765 PvP/Direct Combat focused -> Pirate Battleships Defensive/PvE focused -> Marauders Speed/Stealth -> Black-Ops Battleships It makes very little sense to throw a PvP focused ship into a PvE focused ship-line. Even less to make a T2 ship that's flat better than Pirate Faction.
If this is a critique of my old post, then perhaps you should read it again. The idea is to have a PvE-focused T2 BS (using the current "transformer" hulls that CCP's art team devised) that would cater strictly to PvE (this is not my area of expertise, but I imagine them as having superior active tanking numbers through a rep-amount bonus while having normal resists and smaller buffers than regular BS to prevent them from excelling at fleet combat), an actual "marauder" that trades tank and damage output over a T1 / faction BS in order to gain significant mobility and sustainability advantages, and a revised blackops class that would take up covert cloaks and focus on providing logistical (read: moving things around-- not, "space-priest") support to marauder / recon / bomber / covert t3 gangs. The blackops would trade tank and even more damage output than the marauder in exchange for being able to fill this cloaky support role.
Here, I've made an infographic to help demonstrate what I mean:
http://i.imgur.com/02VPuei.jpg |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:18:00 -
[2735] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:this is funny as hell.
for years gallente pilots have griped about having the rep bonus vs the amarr resist bonus. (not taking sides, just pointing out).
now, atleast for marauder pilots, that has been fixed. i pointed out in my other post that the tank just skyrocketed and folks are griping because they dont get rep bonuses.
ok, so u can heal 39% better. with these resists, you take less damage than you would have needed to rep in the first place. therefore, your point is moot. its even to the point of being silly because when cap runs out with normal resists, you get smoked. now, atleast you can keep resisting and taking less damage than normal. you will even be able to get away if needed and not be scattered all over space because you wouldnt have to rep as much and you would still have cap.
an easy tank on the paladin as i pointed out, is 161k omni in your worst resist (thermal). 225k in your best. thats armor..i dont look at EHP. EHP takes into account hull and shield. i care less about shields and i dont fight in hull. i am going to tank my armor as best as i can and fight there. with these changes, we gain tons of points in our armor...means we can stay longer and kick more butt.
as pointed out, we could tank angel extravaganza all day. imagine that, on stock resists. what do we do with the other 7 low slots?
these resists are a good thing. being an amarr ship lover and embrasing everything resistance based, these are a blessing. my sac tanks like a beast and now we have a bs that can do better due to bastion mode and having tons more armor to start with? whats the problem? we have t2 resistance people! we need less tank for the same effect. THEN we pimp it with bastion mode and have god like tank. t2 resists, double repping in bastion mode, 1 LAR II and 1 LAAR together means they will have a helluva time breakin your tank. 1 LAAR give more than double rep anyway, now you are going to double that in beast mode.
wow.
my drake can tank angel extravaganza. whoopdeedo. |

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:20:00 -
[2736] - Quote
Grombutz wrote:Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:[quote=Pi Selina] Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses. Thats nonsense. Golem is quite cool. It's just the web-bonus which is a little weird.
This is my point, this is my hull bonus (that is a x10 skill), and it gives me a head-scratcher of combination of Ewar bonuses. The thought of webs being kicked out to 42km is intriguing, but that seems too OP.
The velocity bonus to missiles from the bastion is cool, and compliments the hull bonus. Overall torps would go to 50km with T1 ammo. May heaps a little boost to torp range? |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
228
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:31:00 -
[2737] - Quote
Pi Selina wrote:Grombutz wrote:Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:[quote=Pi Selina] Quote:GOLEM
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses. Thats nonsense. Golem is quite cool. It's just the web-bonus which is a little weird. This is my point, this is my hull bonus (that is a x10 skill), and it gives me a head-scratcher of combination of Ewar bonuses. The thought of webs being kicked out to 42km is intriguing, but that seems too OP. The velocity bonus to missiles from the bastion is cool, and compliments the hull bonus. Overall torps would go to 50km with T1 ammo. May heaps a little boost to torp range?
80% webs and bonused TPs sounds very compelling for torp-usage.
Edit: Warp Sanctum at 0, would that work? Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:33:00 -
[2738] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
Hey, Rise;
I think we're all on board with 'we want them to be awesome', but you know, you've said in the past that T2 is for specialization, and in the rebalance, there's actual thought going into 'what role are these ships meant to fill?'
So how about we start there? What role are Marauders meant to fill? Because just judging by the vast majority of the comments in here, either we're not on the same page as you guys, or you guys aren't on the same page as you guys, or nobody has any idea of what the 'real purpose' of a Marauder is.
The idea of a ship that can go behind enemy lines and support itself on long-term deployments is great, but ultimately, in a game where nobody needs to eat, drink, or take a crap, every ship can do that. And I think it's pretty clear from the removal of the tractor beam bonuses that you guys understand that, and understand that the Noctis pretty much obsoletes the tractor bonuses on everything short of an Orca. So the original conceptualization of the Marauder seems to be a non-starter now - given that, I think it's pretty clear that we all would find it a lot easier to evaluate any proposed ideas if we knew where those ideas were supposed to lead.
It's been suggested that there should be 3 T2 battleship classes - a dedicated PVE hull, a dedicated PVP hull, and a dedicated BlOps hull. Does the dev team have any thoughts on that? Is it a mad, mad thought? If the Marauders were to be the PVE hull in that scenario (which seems like how they'd best be used, since it's where they currently are anyway), what about leaving them largely intact, but adding a single high-slot for a salvager, and giving them a salvage bonus to take back that 'in-mission salvager' role from the Noctis?
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Bastion. More ships with visible transformation animations will always get my attention, but the first thing that has to be asked is: what is this ship supposed to do? |

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:36:00 -
[2739] - Quote
I don't mean to hop onto my "Whinosaur" but that "infographic" had better skew a few more bars to the right for the Marauder Class. I get what you're sayin',.. but your basically askin' for Pirate BSs to be the "Cat's Meow". |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
329
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:41:00 -
[2740] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
Translation: Oh sh*t! The can's open and there are f*cking worms everywhere!

This is meant kindly. I think the dev team have the best of intentions, but creating a super-awesome-pve-but-not-too-op-at-pvp ship is going to be very difficult.
I think it's going to be a lot easier if the team focusses on just making marauders good at pve, and leave pvp to the pirate ships.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|
|

CAS3Y
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:44:00 -
[2741] - Quote
Paladin should have the 5 percent capacitor bonus rolled into the base hull and get a tracking bonus instead like the Apoc |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1506
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:45:00 -
[2742] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship. E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765 PvP/Direct Combat focused -> Pirate Battleships Defensive/PvE focused -> Marauders Speed/Stealth -> Black-Ops Battleships It makes very little sense to throw a PvP focused ship into a PvE focused ship-line. Even less to make a T2 ship that's flat better than Pirate Faction. If this is a critique of my old post, then perhaps you should read it again. The idea is to have a PvE-focused T2 BS (using the current "transformer" hulls that CCP's art team devised) that would cater strictly to PvE (this is not my area of expertise, but I imagine them as having superior active tanking numbers through a rep-amount bonus while having normal resists and smaller buffers than regular BS to prevent them from excelling at fleet combat), an actual "marauder" that trades tank and damage output over a T1 / faction BS in order to gain significant mobility and sustainability advantages, and a revised blackops class that would take up covert cloaks and focus on providing logistical (read: moving things around-- not, "space-priest") support to marauder / recon / bomber / covert t3 gangs. The blackops would trade tank and even more damage output (relative to T1) than the marauder in exchange for being able to fill this cloaky support role. Here, I've made an infographic to help demonstrate what I mean: http://i.imgur.com/02VPuei.jpgNote that the categories in the graphic are deliberately simplified: things like "tank" and "utility" can (and should) mean different things depending on the focus of the ship... for example, if you wanted to get really detailed you would break "tank" out into multiple categories like buffer, resists, active repping, etc. For example, a PvE-specialized ship with a maxed-out "tank" bar should mean something that has normal resists, a small HP pool, and a large active repping bonus. T1 and faction tanks should be similar to T1 in resist profiles, but with bigger hitpoint pools (to give them greater EHP without making them any more proficient at receiving remote reps), while T2 combat BS could focus on achieving moderate EHPs through small buffers with a resist bonus, making them powerful in small-gang scenarios regardless of chosen tanking method (buffer or active) while rendering them useless to fleet work due to inherent vulnerabilities to alpha / bombs. This a concept I could support, it is like everyone wins here. But without the power creep. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
139
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:51:00 -
[2743] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:If this is a critique of my old post, then perhaps you should read it again. The idea is to have a PvE-focused T2 BS (using the current "transformer" hulls that CCP's art team devised) that would cater strictly to PvE (this is not my area of expertise, but I imagine them as having superior active tanking numbers through a rep-amount bonus while having normal resists and smaller buffers than regular BS to prevent them from excelling at fleet combat), an actual "marauder" that trades tank and damage output over a T1 / faction BS in order to gain significant mobility and sustainability advantages, and a revised blackops class that would take up covert cloaks and focus on providing logistical (read: moving things around-- not, "space-priest") support to marauder / recon / bomber / covert t3 gangs. The blackops would trade tank and even more damage output (relative to T1) than the marauder in exchange for being able to fill this cloaky support role. Here, I've made an infographic to help demonstrate what I mean: http://i.imgur.com/02VPuei.jpgNote that the categories in the graphic are deliberately simplified: things like "tank" and "utility" can (and should) mean different things depending on the focus of the ship... for example, if you wanted to get really detailed you would break "tank" out into multiple categories like buffer, resists, active repping, etc. For example, a PvE-specialized ship with a maxed-out "tank" bar should mean something that has normal resists, a small HP pool, and a large active repping bonus. T1 and faction tanks should be similar to T1 in resist profiles, but with bigger hitpoint pools (to give them greater EHP without making them any more proficient at receiving remote reps), while T2 combat BS could focus on achieving moderate EHPs through small buffers with a resist bonus, making them powerful in small-gang scenarios regardless of chosen tanking method (buffer or active) while rendering them useless to fleet work due to inherent vulnerabilities to alpha / bombs.
My biggest problem with this stands, you're trying to make the Marauders something they've never been simply based on the name of the ship class.
These have never been terribly mobile, nor have they been high on utility. They tank well which is why they're mission ships.
On the other hand the Black Ops already have mobility based bonuses, it synergizes well with their stealthy nature, and CCP have already stated intent to split the class into Bridging and combat roles. Plus we already have one of them with an EWar focus in the Widow.
If you want to propose an entirely new T2 ship class then fine, but do it after CCP have rebalanced the rest of the Battleships and then make a case for why it doesn't step on anything else. As things stand though I feel you're trying to shoe-horn a new ship into a class that isn't really related to your concept and will likely make the Battleship roles rather crowded. |

Gazzine TunakTun
Tuczniki Alfa
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 00:59:00 -
[2744] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
Hi,
Here is what worries me: speed is much bigger part of tank in shield method than in armor method.
If you build a shield tanking ship you do that at a price: bigger tank, bigger signature. This is balanced somehow by mobility. Armor tanked ships build their tank at a price of speed keeping signature size. If you stop both these ships armor tanked has huge advantage. It loses not so big speed so not much difference if that ship moves 50 or stops. At the same situation shield tanked ship looses crucial part of it's tank (all speed).
My questions are: - did you considered that difference ? - how do you compensate it ? Unfortunately I didn't noticed that. One more question is: - Caldari has two paths to go - hybrids and missiles. At the moment turret path ends on Rokh. Why not give two weapon types bonuses to Golem ? This will let Caldari pilots who spent time to skill hybrids natural path to advance. Up to now, they are abandoned somewhere and fastest way for them to progress is to crosstrain Galente or Minmatar. Three other races don't have that problem.
I think correct way to go is: - consider differences between t1/t2/t3 hulls ships should have (define resists values, armor and shield sizes) - consider different tanking methods (define number of slots ship must have to carry that tank) - consider different weaponry ship is carrying (ranges, dps, alpha, application) - consider difference between t1 battleship and t2 battleship (define bonuses for tank, weaponry, other). - look if what you get here is good. If yes it's time to add some fancy stuff like turning marauders into minidreads. - look at the ship price, if there is a ship capable to replace marauder in his role for less than half of the price start over.
I like that idea but it needs a lot of work to get good result.
Good luck, Gazz |

Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
235
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:00:00 -
[2745] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
Naturally.
I frankly don't see why it wouldn't make sense just to make a T2 battleship class that does what you want with your Bastion idea.
And it is a good idea. A mini-dread would be a great addition to the T2 line of battleships, just trying to crowbar a new gadget onto a ship that is extremely niche at the moment probably isn't going to end well for the ship class.
If you guys at CCP are insistent on making a buttersheep out of Marauders, I'd basically refit the four racial ship types to play to the racial weapon types that they use.
Webs make sense on shorter range turret based ships, but not medium to long range weapon platforms. Webs on the Kronos, Vargur, and Paladin makes sense. On the Golem, not so much, as with your PvP idea with the MJD/Bastion kiting setup, if something is that close to you, you are likely going to die anyway.
I personally would make a new line of T2 battleships based off the Abbadon, Rohk, Typhoon, and Hyperion models. Give them base T2 resists, the bonus to MJD use, Bastion module with stated EWAR immunity, optimal range + 5% RoF (or a 25-30% bonus to overheating modules), 8 highs 7 turrets, mids and lows that fit racial profiles, and 10% damage per level of Marauders skill to turrets with a local rep bonus coupled that makes sense probably in the 5-7.5% per level.
And there you go, your space seige tank in a nutshell.
|

Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
252
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:04:00 -
[2746] - Quote
I didn't mind the first version at all, from a pve point of view. The pve in question was low sec plexing (5/10 & 6/10). MJD tactics are awesome for these and bonus to cycle time is SUPERB. Bastion mode would allow very light tank etc...
Terrible players will cry about being unable to move but seriously with local & d-scan and the fact that you're 100km from warp in, one truly has to be a massive derp to get caught in a plex. And if you can't get around low sec safely, in a ship of this size, it is not the ship's fault. It is YOU.
At least this second version keeps the MJD bonus.
My actual suggestion is to stop listening to pve exclusive points of view. Bastion+MJD is a GREAT idea to build upon but you need to stop trying to please everyone. Rethink the actual bonuses for these ships purely from a PVP perspective.
Before people get all upset about the above statement, please admit that PVE is easy and people adopt any ship to their bearing needs anyway. Why castrate something that could be so great by listening to incursion or mission opinions.
If the marauders get redesigned with a complete PVP focus, people will work out if they can be used in PVE effectively and either use them or not. If you redesign them with the mindset of pleasing incursion runners or whatever other player of limited perspective, they will just continue to be unused in PVP or used only by bored pilots for laughs. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:14:00 -
[2747] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:And I think it's pretty clear from the removal of the tractor beam bonuses that you guys understand that, and understand that the Noctis pretty much obsoletes the tractor bonuses on everything short of an Orca. They didn't remove the tractor bonuses. Or am i reading this wrong? |

Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:16:00 -
[2748] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Arrendis wrote:And I think it's pretty clear from the removal of the tractor beam bonuses that you guys understand that, and understand that the Noctis pretty much obsoletes the tractor bonuses on everything short of an Orca. They didn't remove the tractor bonuses. Or am i reading this wrong?
No, that was me misreading, thanks for catching it. |

Melek D'Ivri
617 Squadron
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:20:00 -
[2749] - Quote
I will do my best to lower my blood pressure before typing much more, but basically:
Marauders have a long standing tradition of being a tank bonused ship, and yes this new bastion mod is, kinda nice looking, but the 100% bonus to boost/rep is because it's going to have a 0 transversal and be stuck in place. And considering I don't see it replaced with an innate marauder bonus to rep, I'll assume my ships should be sold before prices take a nose dive, while I can still make ISK or break even.
Please for the love of God don't get rid of the tanking bonus. Either that or turn the bastion mod into a 200% bonus to boost/rep. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
139
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:23:00 -
[2750] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:This a concept I could support, it is like everyone wins here. But without the power creep.
No, this is still power-creep, and it's crowding the battleship space which is already pretty crowded. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
139
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:27:00 -
[2751] - Quote
Melek D'Ivri wrote:I will do my best to lower my blood pressure before typing much more, but basically:
Marauders have a long standing tradition of being a tank bonused ship, and yes this new bastion mod is, kinda nice looking, but the 100% bonus to boost/rep is because it's going to have a 0 transversal and be stuck in place. And considering I don't see it replaced with an innate marauder bonus to rep, I'll assume my ships should be sold before prices take a nose dive, while I can still make ISK or break even.
Please for the love of God don't get rid of the tanking bonus. Either that or turn the bastion mod into a 200% bonus to boost/rep.
This is not how tanking works. Battleships in a mission are already taking almost full damage from mission rats, even while moving, unless you're using a prop-mod.
I agree that the hulls should have an innate bonus to tank but because they're tanky ships and shouldn't have to equip Bastion to be tanky, not because them standing still is going to increase damage taken from anything but Dreadnaughts but because having a sub-cap that's defined entirely by a single module seems like a poor idea. |

Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:28:00 -
[2752] - Quote
Melek D'Ivri wrote:I will do my best to lower my blood pressure before typing much more, but basically:
Marauders have a long standing tradition of being a tank bonused ship, and yes this new bastion mod is, kinda nice looking, but the 100% bonus to boost/rep is because it's going to have a 0 transversal and be stuck in place. And considering I don't see it replaced with an innate marauder bonus to rep, I'll assume my ships should be sold before prices take a nose dive, while I can still make ISK or break even.
Please for the love of God don't get rid of the tanking bonus. Either that or turn the bastion mod into a 200% bonus to boost/rep.
Not an innate boost to the rep amount, no, but the resists are improving, which works out to an effective bonus to rep amount (by reducing the incoming damage). |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
301
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:41:00 -
[2753] - Quote
CAS3Y wrote:Paladin should have the 5 percent capacitor bonus rolled into the base hull and get a tracking bonus instead like the Apoc
^ This, and I don't even fly Amarr unless its required, its just common sense (just like the Vaga speed bonus was rolled in)
Marauders should keep their per level tank bonus so that we get a battleship that can effectively active tank, and the bonuses should be for long range (range bonus + MJD bonus) OR close range bonuses (web bonus, module that freezes Marauder in place) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
140
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:50:00 -
[2754] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Not an innate boost to the rep amount, no, but the resists are improving, which works out to an effective bonus to rep amount (by reducing the incoming damage).
Except that that's not the case for PvP. Two of the Marauders are getting a massive boost to tanking most missions, two others are SOL in that respect.
This is not particularly balanced nor does it make current Marauder owners very happy. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:50:00 -
[2755] - Quote
Anyone know if the MJD can be activated in bastion? so i could time the spool up with coming out of bastion? |

Tarikan
Battlestars Ex Cinere Scriptor
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:52:00 -
[2756] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
I am glad to here you are looking into our feedback, I just want to emphasize the fact that taking away the rep bonus on the marauders to give them a web bonus is really not helping the in the style you want the ship to take.
You seem to want the marauder to go into the direction of applying damage at farther ranges and having a very large burst active tank, but adding a web velocity bonus is not, in my humble opinion, helping that direction. realistically you'd fit a T2 or faction web which would give you 10-15km of range without boosts. how does that help the marauder with applying damage farther?
Granted Kronos and Paladin players love their webs, but i have never understood why you would need the webs...what was the gameplay factor for them in PvE? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
140
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:53:00 -
[2757] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Anyone know if the MJD can be activated in bastion? so i could time the spool up with coming out of bastion?
No, as stated in the OP:
CCP Ytterbium wrote: They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:59:00 -
[2758] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
Whatever you do, please be very explicit about the purpose behind the ships' next iteration bonuses... that is to say, what roles it will play and why its huge isk and sp cost is warranted.
Having it applicable for a wide range of applications.... does lead to balance concerns. If it has wide enough range to be readily compared to pirate, then the marauders sp requirement is not being taken into account. Personally, i would be happy with marauders being generally, if not always, slightly better than pirate. (it seems to me that sp should be more important than isk, this coming from someone who has enough isk)
Otherwise they need to be REALLY good at something. We need to have a reason to use a marauder over using a pirate ship as it seems the pirate will still be generally better for most applications.... |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:01:00 -
[2759] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Arrendis wrote:Not an innate boost to the rep amount, no, but the resists are improving, which works out to an effective bonus to rep amount (by reducing the incoming damage). Except that that's not the case for PvP. Two of the Marauders are getting a massive boost to tanking most missions, two others are SOL in that respect. This is not particularly balanced nor does it make current Marauder owners very happy.
honestly if its a huge deal i'll just train for different marauders. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:06:00 -
[2760] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Melek D'Ivri wrote:I will do my best to lower my blood pressure before typing much more, but basically:
Marauders have a long standing tradition of being a tank bonused ship, and yes this new bastion mod is, kinda nice looking, but the 100% bonus to boost/rep is because it's going to have a 0 transversal and be stuck in place. And considering I don't see it replaced with an innate marauder bonus to rep, I'll assume my ships should be sold before prices take a nose dive, while I can still make ISK or break even.
Please for the love of God don't get rid of the tanking bonus. Either that or turn the bastion mod into a 200% bonus to boost/rep. This is not how tanking works. Battleships in a mission are already taking almost full damage from mission rats, even while moving, unless you're using a prop-mod. I agree that the hulls should have an innate bonus to tank but because they're tanky ships and shouldn't have to equip Bastion to be tanky, not because them standing still is going to increase damage taken from anything but Dreadnaughts but because having a sub-cap that's defined entirely by a single module seems like a poor idea.
Theres quite a few T2 ships that can be defined by modules Stealth Bomber, HIC, Interdictor, BLOPS for example |
|

Oberus MacKenzie
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:10:00 -
[2761] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Whatever you do, please be very explicit about the purpose behind the ships' next iteration bonuses... that is to say, what roles it will play and why its huge isk and sp cost is warranted.
Having it applicable for a wide range of applications.... does lead to balance concerns. If it has wide enough range to be readily compared to pirate, then the marauders sp requirement is not being taken into account. Personally, i would be happy with marauders being generally, if not always, slightly better than pirate. (it seems to me that sp should be more important than isk, this coming from someone who has enough isk)
Otherwise they need to be REALLY good at something. We need to have a reason to use a marauder over using a pirate ship as it seems the pirate will still be generally better for most applications....
Agreed |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
627
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:11:00 -
[2762] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:My biggest problem with this stands, you're trying to make the Marauders something they've never been simply based on the name of the ship class.
These have never been terribly mobile, nor have they been high on utility. They tank well which is why they're mission ships.
On the other hand the Black Ops already have mobility based bonuses, it synergizes well with their stealthy nature, and CCP have already stated intent to split the class into Bridging and combat roles. Plus we already have one of them with an EWar focus in the Widow.
If you want to propose an entirely new T2 ship class then fine, but do it after CCP have rebalanced the rest of the Battleships and then make a case for why it doesn't step on anything else. As things stand though I feel you're trying to shoe-horn a new ship into a class that isn't really related to your concept and will likely make the Battleship roles rather crowded.
I'm not suggesting that people who already trained for current Marauders would have their SP re-allocated to my proposed Marauders. I'm merely suggesting that the name and class description that Marauders currently have be applied to a new kind of T2 battleship. The current Marauders would then be re-named / described, and all skillpoints currently invested in Marauders would be transferred to the re-named PvE battleships during the patch (IE if you currently have Marauders V, you would end up with Whatever-the-new-BS-class-is V and would continue flying the same ships under a new class name).
So, really all I'm proposing is that the current Marauders (which are not terribly good at their PvE niche-role anyway) be re-named and made to fit their existing role better. As for "what Marauders have historically been," who cares? Historically, what they've been is bad ships. It's time to move on from that and begin a bold new chapter of useful PvE battleshipping.
With regard to "waiting" to add a new class of T2 ship, my question is, "why?" If the current crop of ships doesn't adequately address the kinds of usage models the players want catered to, then the selection of ships should be changed. Qualms like this haven't stopped CCP from re-vamping other ship lines from scratch during the tiericide-- noone suggested that CCP rebalance the Hurricane first and then focus on the Tornado and Cyclone, for example. Trying to cater to all the usage models people want catered to with two T2 battleship hulls would require abominations such as the current blackops ships or Ytterbium's initial proposal here (IE ships that try to specialize in too many things and end up being bad at all of them), while only really addressing one usage model (by making Marauders into a good PvE ship and leaving things at that) just leaves current blackops BS users out in the cold for another development cycle regardless of how they use their ships (since the current blops aren't especially good at combat or gang logistics). Addressing all usage models in one, well-considered pass is clearly the superior approach here, provided CCP have got the man-hours to do so by winter-time (which I think they do, since it's really not all that difficult to tweak ship stats and the required art assets for the PvE ships have apparently already been delivered).
Regardless, I think that given what my proposed new ships would do, it makes perfect sense to put the new battleships into their new classes (Yet-to-be-named "PvE" class, Marauder, Blackops) rather than putting my proposed "new Marauders" and blackops battleships under the same heading, since they would be specialized in very different roles with the only common denominator being that they both have jump drives and are fairly mobile. Blackops with their covops cloaks and logistical focus should form one category, while Marauders with their inability to warp cloaked and perform logistical tasks (and DPS-oriented bonuses) should fall into their own category. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
140
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:14:00 -
[2763] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:honestly if its a huge deal i'll just train for different marauders.
The purpose of a ship-rebalance should be that every ship has some role, not for 2 out of 4 ships to be demonstrably better than 2 others.
If you're going from just a Paladin to a Kronos you're looking at Gallente Battleships to 5 which is a month and a half. Then T2 Large Hybrids is another 2 months. If you're going from an armor to a shield ship then throw even more time on to that.
The response to the concerns of people who already use these ships should not be "well train one of the others and get over it". |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:23:00 -
[2764] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Battle Cube wrote:honestly if its a huge deal i'll just train for different marauders. The purpose of a ship-rebalance should be that every ship has some role, not for 2 out of 4 ships to be demonstrably better than 2 others. If you're going from just a Paladin to a Kronos you're looking at Gallente Battleships to 5 which is a month and a half. Then T2 Large Hybrids is another 2 months. If you're going from an armor to a shield ship then throw even more time on to that. The response to the concerns of people who already use these ships should not be "well train one of the others and get over it".
you said it yourself that 2 would be good for rats, while 2 would not...those other 2 are better at omni tanking, which is good for other things. And yes going from one race to another causes a huge problem with weapons training, that there is no doubt. |

Flyinghotpocket
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
174
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:24:00 -
[2765] - Quote
have the bastion do 50% capacitor reduction on lasors, and put a real bonus on the paladin, you know, like the other battleships.
or give all battleships a 50% reduction in capacitor use HAH, |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:26:00 -
[2766] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:I'm not suggesting that people who already trained for current Marauders would have their SP re-allocated to my proposed Marauders. I'm merely suggesting that the name and class description that Marauders currently have be applied to a new kind of T2 battleship. The current Marauders would then be re-named / described, and all skillpoints currently invested in Marauders would be transferred to the re-named PvE battleships during the patch (IE if you currently have Marauders V, you would end up with Whatever-the-new-BS-class-is V and would continue flying the same ships under a new class name).
So, really all I'm proposing is that the current Marauders (which are not terribly good at their PvE niche-role anyway) be re-named and made to fit their existing role better. As for "what Marauders have historically been," who cares? Historically, what they've been is bad ships. It's time to move on from that and begin a bold new chapter of useful PvE battleshipping.
With regard to "waiting" to add a new class of T2 ship, my question is, "why?" If the current crop of ships doesn't adequately address the kinds of usage models the players want catered to, then the selection of ships should be changed. Qualms like this haven't stopped CCP from re-vamping other ship lines from scratch during the tiericide-- noone suggested that CCP rebalance the Hurricane first and then focus on the Tornado and Cyclone, for example. Trying to cater to all the usage models people want catered to with two T2 battleship hulls would require abominations such as the current blackops ships or Ytterbium's initial proposal here (IE ships that try to specialize in too many things and end up being bad at all of them), while only really addressing one usage model (by making Marauders into a good PvE ship and leaving things at that) just leaves current blackops BS users out in the cold for another development cycle regardless of how they use their ships (since the current blops aren't especially good at combat or gang logistics). Addressing all usage models in one, well-considered pass is clearly the superior approach here, provided CCP have got the man-hours to do so by winter-time (which I think they do, since it's really not all that difficult to tweak ship stats and the required art assets for the PvE ships have apparently already been delivered).
Regardless, I think that given what my proposed new ships would do, it makes perfect sense to put the new battleships into their new classes (Yet-to-be-named "PvE" class, Marauder, Blackops) rather than putting my proposed "new Marauders" and blackops battleships under the same heading, since they would be specialized in very different roles with the only common denominator being that they both have jump drives and are fairly mobile. Blackops with their covops cloaks and logistical focus should form one category, while Marauders with their inability to warp cloaked and perform logistical tasks (and DPS-oriented bonuses) should fall into their own category.
Except that Ytterbium's initial point, that having a forced pure PvE ship class is contrary to Eve's emergent nature, is correct. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have tanky T2 battleships that deal a bit less damage but good projection, and the Bastion skill and have them have at least some PvP use even if they're built for PvE.
As for why wait? How about because we have three ship classes to balance and we shouldn't be shoving more ships into an already crowded space until we've determined that there's already room for them in that space. This won't be accomplished until the existing ships have been rebalanced.
For reference here's Ytterbium on where the re-balancing effort stands.
New ships should at the least come after Pirate Battleships and Black-Ops, and for preference after Capitals and T3s as well. If there's space in the meta at that point then it would be a good idea to look at filling it, but not in the middle of re-balancing all the other ships in the same class, that just leads to "but I want MY favorite class to be like that one!!!" which is already what we're seeing a bit of here. Everyone wants Marauders to fit *their* purposes rather than saying "okay, these can be good at Y if something else is good at X".
Plus if I'm reading you correctly your entire argument is that you don't like that these ships are called Marauders... I'm sorry, argue for a renaming *after* they're done balancing things. Personally I'd rather this stay as a thread about the Marauders, not one about you pushing for a new ship class that you want to use the name. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:27:00 -
[2767] - Quote
Incindir Mauser wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/ Naturally. I frankly don't see why it wouldn't make sense just to make a T2 battleship class that does what you want with your Bastion idea. And it is a good idea. A mini-dread would be a great addition to the T2 line of battleships, just trying to crowbar a new gadget onto a ship that is extremely niche at the moment probably isn't going to end well for the ship class. If you guys at CCP are insistent on making a buttersheep out of Marauders, I'd basically refit the four racial ship types to play to the racial weapon types that they use. Webs make sense on shorter range turret based ships, but not medium to long range weapon platforms. Webs on the Kronos, Vargur, and Paladin makes sense. On the Golem, not so much, as with your PvP idea with the MJD/Bastion kiting setup, if something is that close to you, you are likely going to die anyway. I personally would make a new line of T2 battleships based off the Abbadon, Rohk, Typhoon, and Hyperion models. Give them base T2 resists, the bonus to MJD use, Bastion module with stated EWAR immunity, optimal range + 5% RoF (or a 25-30% bonus to overheating modules), 8 highs 7 turrets, mids and lows that fit racial profiles, and 10% damage per level of Marauders skill to turrets with a local rep bonus coupled that makes sense probably in the 5-7.5% per level. Or if you really want to get creative, give them all 6 capital turrets with RoF bonuses (NO CITADEL MISSILES! **** last thing we need is another travesty like the Phoenix.). And there you go, your space seige tank in a nutshell.
i also think it would be intensely fun to have a BS with capital weapons. Would be fun for the ship, good for industry for the parts and ammo, good stuff. I suggested a possibility earlier that the bastion module should simply enable capital modules that are equiped (but otherwise have little effect) this way bastion mode could have bonuses or effects that dont multiply the regular version, so the regular version doesnt have to be nerfed for bastion mode to have something
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:31:00 -
[2768] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:you said it yourself that 2 would be good for rats, while 2 would not...those other 2 are better at omni tanking, which is good for other things. And yes going from one race to another causes a huge problem with weapons training, that there is no doubt.
Except that you can still tank the other two for omni-damage fairly easily, they're just even better at most missions, which is historically what the Marauders have been great at.
I wouldn't mind so much if they weren't also losing the local repair bonus on the hull. At that point you're flat nerfing the mission tank of two of these hulls while giving the other two a massive buff.
The full T2 resists are great for Incursions and Wormholes, but the loss of local repair capacity hurts the other two for missions massively.
I want to be clear here, I am not arguing for the full T2 resists to go away. If CCP thinks those are balanced then by all means, I'll love flying a Kronos in Incursions, but I also think they need to keep the local repair bonus so the Paladin and Vargur don't get screwed over for regular missioning since that's most of what these hulls are already doing. |

Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:36:00 -
[2769] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:i also think it would be intensely fun to have a BS with capital weapons. Would be fun for the ship, good for industry for the parts and ammo, good stuff. I suggested a possibility earlier that the bastion module should simply enable capital modules that are equiped (but otherwise have little effect) this way bastion mode could have bonuses or effects that dont multiply the regular version, so the regular version doesnt have to be nerfed for bastion mode to have something
How are capital weapons fun? Especially on a battleship... If you're fighting other capital ships, and you need to be stationary to use the capital guns, then you're a free kill for any dreadnaught. The only thing capital guns on a battleship would do would make them high-sec POS bashers. And last I checked, POS bashing was pretty boring. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
715
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:39:00 -
[2770] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Battle Cube wrote:honestly if its a huge deal i'll just train for different marauders. The purpose of a ship-rebalance should be that every ship has some role, not for 2 out of 4 ships to be demonstrably better than 2 others. If you're going from just a Paladin to a Kronos you're looking at Gallente Battleships to 5 which is a month and a half. Then T2 Large Hybrids is another 2 months. If you're going from an armor to a shield ship then throw even more time on to that. The response to the concerns of people who already use these ships should not be "well train one of the others and get over it". you said it yourself that 2 would be good for rats, while 2 would not...those other 2 are better at omni tanking, which is good for other things. And yes going from one race to another causes a huge problem with weapons training, that there is no doubt. None of them seem good for PvP, which leaves incursions and WH's. They are somewhat lackluster in incursions compared to other options and in WH's they run into mass issues which makes them unattractive and are still only excelling in solo activity, which doesn't include the most lucrative PvE activities there. All of them not working excessively well in solo PvE against mission rats would be more acceptable if the ones that didn't actually shined somewhere else. |
|

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
254
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:46:00 -
[2771] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: i also think it would be intensely fun to have a BS with capital weapons. Would be fun for the ship, good for industry for the parts and ammo, good stuff. I suggested a possibility earlier that the bastion module should simply enable capital modules that are equiped (but otherwise have little effect) this way bastion mode could have bonuses or effects that dont multiply the regular version, so the regular version doesnt have to be nerfed for bastion mode to have something Ehhh..... Maybe. Personally when I hear that I think ABCs and what an OP'd nightmare those became. But on a less kneejerk response, would a 1Bil+ T2 BS really be a practical choice for blasting at caps, structures, and massively webbed/painted targets. Other than WHs I really don't see a whole lotta use for that when you could just use a Dread instead. Which would be cheaper, tankier, and able cyno around the map as needed. The idea might work for some sort of T1 battleship, but then you are running into issues of power creep with welp fleets of XL-Weapon using BSs flying around smashing structures left and right. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 02:48:00 -
[2772] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you.
sounds good to me, as I honestly have no idea what to think about marauders/bastion anymore. that **** got weird. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Remote Cat
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:09:00 -
[2773] - Quote
well, i understand you ccp guys want set t2 BS have same level as HA resists.
and i strangly agree that.
but, as it is much expensive than HA, only give it 100% repair and immune EW is not change too much,
let's have a compare:
AF have 210% ehp than frigat without any equipment
and almost 130% dps with full equipment than frigat
HA have 130% ehp than cruiser without any equip
it got around 150% dps with full equip than cruiser
same as bc and command.
and now, you just set Marauder got high ehp and self repair, but no dps buff, don't think fire range buff is dps, it just make ppl more comfortable shoot 
i know you want pirate bs got more dps than Marauder, same as frigat and cruiser and bc. their pirate ship have more useful on speed/ ehp/ less weapon but same damage ( maybe bit higher). Marauder just almost smae |

Atreides 47
Atreides of Arrakis
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:09:00 -
[2774] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
[list]
Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
Why wait 3 months ? Implement this changes without Bastion module and see how things will turn out. Long Live the Fighters !
CCP and nerfs - http://i.imgur.com/MejTGfL.jpg |

Decaff Harkonnen
0 inc
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:14:00 -
[2775] - Quote
I'm about 20 days away from finishing my training for the Golem and you dumb b@$tards are trying to change the role of the damn ship? I mean seriously? Make a new class of BS for this ridiculous bull$h1t. A$$h013s |

Teroh Vizjereij
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:17:00 -
[2776] - Quote
Marauders getting the ultra mobility of MJD'ing like mad now ... and a web bonus is super stupid. The web bonus is just CCP giving in to the Incursion bears. Thing is .. in shield incursions ( like 95% of the inc fleets ) you barely ever see a marauder except the Vargur. So until the Vindi looses its web bonus non of those T1 guns + T1 drone 2 month old Vindi Bears would ever switch to a marauder.
I actually like this guys idea a lot : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3577571#post3577571 .. even though with his values its absurdly op right now, but the idea is good.
And for all those "local rep" guys .. the marauders finally get T2 resists now which kinda equals to the local rep bonus ( except you use 2-3 in pvp ) and free's up one stat spot for CCP to play around with.
But webstrenght is def. not the answer .. at all. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5750
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:20:00 -
[2777] - Quote
I really think the removal of the bastion tank bonus and the active tank bonus are a huge mistake. I also don't agree that the web bonus is necessary for this class of ship, and it certainly does not mesh well with the optimal/falloff/missile velocity bonuses considering that it's a web strength bonus, not a web range bonus (which would be vastly more useful). My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5750
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:21:00 -
[2778] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/ Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship. E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765 Yes, this. Dear god, this. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
628
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:28:00 -
[2779] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Except that Ytterbium's initial point, that having a forced pure PvE ship class is contrary to Eve's emergent nature, is correct. There is absolutely no reason why we can't have tanky T2 battleships that deal a bit less damage but good projection, and the Bastion skill and have them have at least some PvP use even if they're built for PvE. As for why wait? How about because we have three ship classes to balance and we shouldn't be shoving more ships into an already crowded space until we've determined that there's already room for them in that space. This won't be accomplished until the existing ships have been rebalanced. For reference here's Ytterbium on where the re-balancing effort stands. New ships should at the least come after Pirate Battleships and Black-Ops, and for preference after Capitals and T3s as well. If there's space in the meta at that point then it would be a good idea to look at filling it, but not in the middle of re-balancing all the other ships in the same class, that just leads to "but I want MY favorite class to be like that one!!!" which is already what we're seeing a bit of here. Everyone wants Marauders to fit *their* purposes rather than saying "okay, these can be good at Y if something else is good at X". Plus if I'm reading you correctly your entire argument is that you don't like that these ships are called Marauders... I'm sorry, argue for a renaming *after* they're done balancing things. Personally I'd rather this stay as a thread about the Marauders, not one about you pushing for a new ship class that you want to use the name.
Ok, first let me get this out of the way: I don't really have that much confidence in Ytterbium as a game designer, period. I've never seen a proposal from him that struck me as a particularly good idea and a lot of the things he says lead me to believe he's not really very in-touch with how this game is played. I don't want this to read like too much of a callout post, but I'll just say I pretty consistently disagree with the way he frames things and with his priorities.
Ytterbium's notion that he can make a ship that excels at both PvP and PvE without being overpowered in either role is a good example of a poorly-conceived idea. I do agree with him that it would be nice and in-keeping with CCP's design philosophies for EVE if it were possible to make such a ship, but unfortunately EVE isn't perfect and doesn't always live up to it's philosophical design goals. PvE, especially in its common form-- missions and anomalies-- is, at a very fundamental level, different from PvP. The majority of PvE content in this game is fundamentally repetitive, predictable, controllable, static (all the combat takes place within static "rooms") and designed to be reliably handled by a single player instance after instance.
By way of contrast, PvP in EVE is none of these things: the numbers of players involved varies dramatically and is unpredictable and combat is fundamentally dynamic (as people constantly maneuver to optimize DPS/ewar application and/or try to engage and disengage at will).
PvP ships must by definition be flexible because they encounter vast numbers of combat scenarios. Ships used for the majority of PvE want to excel at a specific and predictable task. There is no way to design a ship that is both specialized for ratting and excellent at PvP, because the two activities hinge on fundamentally different mechanics: a mission or anomaly runner does not care if their ship is fast, slow, or immobile because rats are content to simply sit there orbiting at a textbook range and take damage until they are dead. Anomalies and missions are a static shooting gallery and no more, and unless CCP plan to completely change PvE dynamics, PvE-specialized ships must necessarily cater to the dynamics that exist, which means ships that are capable of absorbing moderate-to-large amounts of sustained incoming damage over prolonged periods of time while applying usefully-high amounts of damage to all NPCs within a room (which we can safely characterize as close to medium-range engagements). In addition, any attributes which improve a PvE ship's resistance to NPC ewar will also speed up clear times. Mobility is always a welcome addition to any ship, but in the case of PvE boats it is certainly not necessary to be particularly mobile.
Solo and small-gang PvP ships, on the other hand, have to be able to skirmish against other players. This puts much more emphasis on the importance of mobility (range dictation is of fundamental importance in PvP-- whether you need to close on your targets or stay at arms' length from them). Of course, all the characteristics of a PvE ship (damage projection, ewar resistance, tanking ability) would be welcome additions to any PvP-oriented hull as well, but generally speaking the most important attributes for PvP ships are mobility, ability to absorb extreme amounts of damage over short periods of time, and achieving a flexible balance of stats that allow them to function usefully against opposing forces of unknown quantities and qualities.
Although I don't want to spend too much time talking about Incursion / wormhole PvE or large-scale fleet PvP, one curious thing to note is that these activities have many more similarities than conventional PvE and solo / small gang PvP. As such, you'd expect that the same types of ships that excel in one of these environments are probably pretty useful in the other environments as well. As a result, I think it's important that CCP DON'T design a class of ship that's specialized for wormhole or Incursion PvE, as the result would be to create a type of T2 ship that simply outclassed it's T1 cousins for fleet PvP-- the result being massively increased ISK costs to remain competitive in sov warfare: a bad idea for EVE. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
628
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:39:00 -
[2780] - Quote
So, to sum up my previous post:
1. We're generally talking about three usage scenarios here: conventional PvE (anoms / missions), small-scale PvP (solo, small gang), and large-scale fleet PvP / PvE (I think it's safe to lump fleet fights and Incursion / WH PvP into this category, since the mechanics share a lot of overall similarities)
2. These three usage scenarios each demand a different set of competences from a ship
3. A ship that possessed multiple sets of competences would be supremely overpowered
4. A ship that possessed portions of multiple sets of competences would not be overpowered, but would also excel at nothing and therefore be incapable of justifying a T2 pricetag
5. Conclusion: it is best to build separate, specialized T2 hulls for traditional PvE and small-scale PvP, while leaving large-scale PvP and PvE to the more generalist hulls that already exist and fill these roles very well. |
|

Sato Page
TACTICAL AGGRESSION Unprovoked Aggression
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:45:00 -
[2781] - Quote
What made me worry the most is CCP's wild swing between bonuses and roles in the matter of days. CCP do you know what you are doing? |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:53:00 -
[2782] - Quote
Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
|

Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1156
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:54:00 -
[2783] - Quote
Crimminy still with the "waah waah Marauders will suck at level 4's with Bastion and MJD".
Here's the thing: MJD + Bastion might not suit your style of doing level 4's as you do them now (slowly motor to out gate while blam-blam) and you may need to adjust your play style to utilise them propelry...but how is that 'ruining' the ship class for its supposed 'intended role'?
The idea with designing a ship class should be to give it capabilities and let it loose and see where it ends up. People thought the Tengu was so-so for level 4's, and then they discovered the 100MN fits, and the price of CNR's dipped because you could get equal performance and way too much tank from a Tengu. This shows that what you may think a ship is intended for gets warped and twisted around by the players who find novel and unique ways to use them.
I thought the MJD was a fairly pointless module. Suddenly, there's people mumbling the 3 minute cooldown timer hurts them because they have to jump away from Level 4 mission rats twice which takes them 6 minutes to get back to gate.
Oh, hey, you can do it in 1/3rd the time with a Marauder with the Bastion mode! zomg!
The problem with the line of thinking that marauders are intended for PVE in level 4s (or as now, warped by Incursion bear whining) is that this leads to revisions and rebalances that further force the ship into what "the community' sees as an intended role.
Sure, this may be true of HICs and Dictors and Logi of all kinds, as these are very specialised ships. However, all other T2 combat ships have ship bonuses which give them special abilities and people automagically come up with interesting uses. Sentry ishtar ratting? Check. Blops running 8/10's? Check. Stealth bombers doing level 4 FW missions? Check. Soloing level 4's in Retributions? Check. Oh. My. God. CCP better buff these ships so they are more effective at their intended role of missioning!
Sarcasm in case you missed it.
The iteration 1 marauder changes gave us a niche PVP ship which would solo small POSs (yeah baby), Dickstars (hahaha), totally ruin the lamest "PVP" in EVE (being docking games), allow donut punching of lowsec gate camps (huehuehue). The problem? You can't run incursions. But you CAN destroy Level 4's. Well, shucks.
iteration 2 is a compromise which barely reduces the Marauder's use in PVE, assuming you can figure out MJD missioning style and aren't prone to ridiculously overtanking your ships for missions because you want your AFK Rattler back. It really only increases their use back to slightly worse than pirate BS for incursions. not that anyone uses them in incursions now, nor will they afterwards.
What it does do is destroys its use in PVP in any conceivable fashion. Docking games are back on because if you are going to undock a marauder, you may as well undock a Vindicator. Yay, thumbs up!
Lowsec gate camps won't have to worry about these things permatanking them while their gangmates destroy the pirates. Your sniper mode Marauder is gone, the 80% web being about as useful as bulls with DD boobs.
Whereas before i was looking forward to dropping one into harms way, assured that if I calculated right I'd have a good 10-15 minutes of fun and get a few kills baiting people, now its just a more expensive and less useful navy Faction BS equivalent with a "kill me now" module and no utility.
Be brave, CCP Ytterbium. Maybe fiddle the Bastion resist bonus to being a free DCU, or 5% across the board non-penalised. Keep the active rep bonus so you can actually tank outside Bastion mode (while, eg, hoofing it to gate), and tank in the 2-3K range while in it. You will then have a small gang or even solo boat able to punch hard, tank stronk and be a PITA.
Structure the other bonuses to actually work together to make a formidable long range platform which can protect itself from numpty ceptor pilots, idiots who blow their sig and can't tank 1000-1200 DPS and can't rid themselves of tackle. Leave the web bonus out, it will then be the achilles heel and force marauder pilots to work hard on their fits to counter the inevitable hero tackle Incursus of doom.
Iteration 1 Marauders, piloted by smart people with good gangs who pick their fights were going to be a handful. Well, guess what, an 850 DPS 280K EHP rail Proteus is a handful right now and you don't have any "kill me now" module on T3's like you do with iteration 2. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:56:00 -
[2784] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:So, to sum up my previous post:
1. We're generally talking about three usage scenarios here: conventional PvE (anoms / missions), small-scale PvP (solo, small gang), and large-scale fleet PvP / PvE (I think it's safe to lump fleet fights and Incursion / WH PvP into this category, since the mechanics share a lot of overall similarities)
2. These three usage scenarios each demand a different set of competences from a ship
3. A ship that possessed multiple sets of competences would be supremely overpowered
4. A ship that possessed portions of multiple sets of competences would not be overpowered, but would also excel at nothing and therefore be incapable of justifying a T2 pricetag
5. Conclusion: it is best to build separate, specialized T2 hulls for traditional PvE and small-scale PvP, while leaving large-scale PvP and PvE to the more generalist hulls that already exist and fill these roles very well.
Interestingly, the whole "T2 ships not better, but specialized" thing is Ytterbium's own design gimmick, which leaves me even more perplexed as to why he seems to have taken an antithetical approach with his proposed Marauder changes. Ytterbium's proposed ships are a perfect example of #4 here-- a ship that tries to specialize in two things, but makes so many tradeoffs to avoid being overpowered in either role that it ends up offering no useful benefits in either. The current blackops BS have the same problem: if you fit them for combat, you're wasting their logistics bonuses and end up with a ship that's not particularly good at combat; if you fit them as a gang-support ship, you waste their combat-friendly attributes and end up with a ship that isn't particularly good at being a jump-bridge. It would be infinitely preferable to just have a selection of ships where each one caters to one of these usage patterns-- a new PvE battleship for doing conventional, solo PvE; a new Marauder that focuses on being a little bit sneaky and very skirmishy; a new blackops that actually does it's job of being very sneaky while supporting covert gangs well; and the newly-rebalanced T1 battleships for generalist uses like fleet PvP, Incursions and wormholes. By separating the ships out by roles, it becomes possible to create a ship that can justify its pricetag for one activity while not being too good at another.
Or, and this is just a thought, we could have the Marauders be good at tanking with good resists (from a full T2 resist profile) and good damage application and/or projection along with a bonus to local tank. This can be balanced out by overall slow speed and align times and overall lower damage.
The main things you need for most PvE, where these ships should be expected to excel, is good damage application and a good local tank. For incursions you just need good resists and EHP but honestly I could live with these ships not being the king of Incursions, you can do incursions in a T1 Battleship just fine and incursion runners don't actually need more Isk per hour.
The original Bastion module did this fairly well but wasn't making the PvP crowd happy. That said, Ytterbium also stated flat out the ships were only intended to have niche PvP applications. In Eve terms this means "whatever people can find that works with the ship bonuses".
As to the idea that PvP ships need to be flexible, I direct your attention to the Attack Battlecruisers, three of which have no drone bay and which tend to fit speed and damage and not much else. These are hardly flexible ships but they're extremely widely used in PvP. For a solo ship you need a lot of different things on one ship, for a fleet though a bunch of more highly specialized ships is superior.
Also the specialization isn't "Ytterbium's design gimmick" he wrote that post but you can bet there were a dozen more more meetings between him and everyone else doing ship design to hash out a set of overall guidelines for the ship rebalancing. Rise even brought up that HACs were being left as an exception to the rule because they already had a place in Eve and they didn't want to invalidate that with their changes. Also, seriously, you just said "sneaky and skirmishy" and applied that to Marauders instead of Black-Ops? Really?
So yeah, personally I have plenty of faith in Ytterbium and the rest of the CCP balance team. So far they've been doing a great job. Your ideas though I don't have so much faith in. Go get a job as a professional game designer and then you can start calling other designers bad. |

Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1158
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:01:00 -
[2785] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
It will go like this. Two people are playing a game. One in, eg, a Vindicator and the other a Vargur. They begin playing a PVP game. Vindicator: "I play my 1500 DPS card!" Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. (repeat 52 times) Vindicator: Okaaaaay, and now GAME FIXED Vargur: I better dock up now. Vindicator: MOTHERF****** ******* *******! YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|

Zoe Israfil
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:02:00 -
[2786] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Crimminy still with the "waah waah Marauders will suck at level 4's with Bastion and MJD".
Here's the thing: MJD + Bastion might not suit your style of doing level 4's as you do them now (slowly motor to out gate while blam-blam) and you may need to adjust your play style to utilise them propelry...but how is that 'ruining' the ship class for its supposed 'intended role'?
The idea with designing a ship class should be to give it capabilities and let it loose and see where it ends up. People thought the Tengu was so-so for level 4's, and then they discovered the 100MN fits, and the price of CNR's dipped because you could get equal performance and way too much tank from a Tengu. This shows that what you may think a ship is intended for gets warped and twisted around by the players who find novel and unique ways to use them.
I thought the MJD was a fairly pointless module. Suddenly, there's people mumbling the 3 minute cooldown timer hurts them because they have to jump away from Level 4 mission rats twice which takes them 6 minutes to get back to gate.
Oh, hey, you can do it in 1/3rd the time with a Marauder with the Bastion mode! zomg!
The problem with the line of thinking that marauders are intended for PVE in level 4s (or as now, warped by Incursion bear whining) is that this leads to revisions and rebalances that further force the ship into what "the community' sees as an intended role.
Sure, this may be true of HICs and Dictors and Logi of all kinds, as these are very specialised ships. However, all other T2 combat ships have ship bonuses which give them special abilities and people automagically come up with interesting uses. Sentry ishtar ratting? Check. Blops running 8/10's? Check. Stealth bombers doing level 4 FW missions? Check. Soloing level 4's in Retributions? Check. Oh. My. God. CCP better buff these ships so they are more effective at their intended role of missioning!
Sarcasm in case you missed it.
The iteration 1 marauder changes gave us a niche PVP ship which would solo small POSs (yeah baby), Dickstars (hahaha), totally ruin the lamest "PVP" in EVE (being docking games), allow donut punching of lowsec gate camps (huehuehue). The problem? You can't run incursions. But you CAN destroy Level 4's. Well, shucks.
iteration 2 is a compromise which barely reduces the Marauder's use in PVE, assuming you can figure out MJD missioning style and aren't prone to ridiculously overtanking your ships for missions because you want your AFK Rattler back. It really only increases their use back to slightly worse than pirate BS for incursions. not that anyone uses them in incursions now, nor will they afterwards.
What it does do is destroys its use in PVP in any conceivable fashion. Docking games are back on because if you are going to undock a marauder, you may as well undock a Vindicator. Yay, thumbs up!
Lowsec gate camps won't have to worry about these things permatanking them while their gangmates destroy the pirates. Your sniper mode Marauder is gone, the 80% web being about as useful as bulls with DD boobs.
Whereas before i was looking forward to dropping one into harms way, assured that if I calculated right I'd have a good 10-15 minutes of fun and get a few kills baiting people, now its just a more expensive and less useful navy Faction BS equivalent with a "kill me now" module and no utility.
Be brave, CCP Ytterbium. Maybe fiddle the Bastion resist bonus to being a free DCU, or 5% across the board non-penalised. Keep the active rep bonus so you can actually tank outside Bastion mode (while, eg, hoofing it to gate), and tank in the 2-3K range while in it. You will then have a small gang or even solo boat able to punch hard, tank stronk and be a PITA.
Structure the other bonuses to actually work together to make a formidable long range platform which can protect itself from numpty ceptor pilots, idiots who blow their sig and can't tank 1000-1200 DPS and can't rid themselves of tackle. Leave the web bonus out, it will then be the achilles heel and force marauder pilots to work hard on their fits to counter the inevitable hero tackle Incursus of doom.
Iteration 1 Marauders, piloted by smart people with good gangs who pick their fights were going to be a handful. Well, guess what, an 850 DPS 280K EHP rail Proteus is a handful right now and you don't have any "kill me now" module on T3's like you do with iteration 2.
Agreed.
|

mark sean
Federation DC
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:03:00 -
[2787] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
I also agree with this persons statement. This will make shields extremely over powered. While armor will be left in the dust. Unless there is some kind of fix i don't see this going well in terms of rebalancing. |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:03:00 -
[2788] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
It will go like this. Two people are playing a game. One in, eg, a Vindicator and the other a Vargur. They begin playing a PVP game. Vindicator: "I play my 1500 DPS card!" Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. (repeat 52 times) Vindicator: Okaaaaay, and now GAME FIXED Vargur: I better dock up now. Vindicator: MOTHERF****** ******* *******!
The problem with this equation is the vindicator wont tank the vargur for half an hour. |

Nick Parker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:04:00 -
[2789] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Nick Parker wrote:I like the idea of a marauder being able to use a MJD more effectively, but Bastion mode? Really? It would serve no purpose at all. Even if you can jump 100KM away from a hostile, (who will be screaming in corp chat I've got a marauder tackled) a single frigate can run up and tank your drones and you wont be able to do squat. So, you come out of BS mode, only to get tackled and loose a bill+ ship. And as many others have sad, god help you if a dread happens by.
Marauders have never served a role in eve, other than level 4 missioning. They were nerfed from the outset because of the fear of power creep inherent in T2. I think they were made just to please mission runners, and with the advent of the Noctis, they had no purpose.
How often do you see marauders in PVP anyways? Aside from the cost of, their bonuses were never that good. Basically, it was a top tier BS, with a web bonus or target painter bonus, with a tier 2 BS skin.
Marauders should be able to raid enemy territory, not turn into some sort of anime inspired weapon platform. Strip the tractor beam bonus for the MJD bonus, strip the crippling sensor strength penalty, and give them a defined role. Nerf their tank, but increase their damage and tracking to compensate. Or give them a huge increase in tank, but slow them down.
CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.
I'm rambling at this point, but no micro siege mobile suit bastion crud. Please. Congrats you have completely missed the point of the hull and CCP's proposal. For reference: CCP Ytterbium wrote:Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
........
The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.
Emphasis mine. Everything you are complaining about is working as intended. Skill intensive is not a good reason to have a Battleship class version of HAC. If you want high damage ships with less tank the Pirate Battleships are that way 
|

Corvald Tyrska
Dha'Vargar
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:04:00 -
[2790] - Quote
People need to take a step back and have a long think about what this rebalancing is all about. Ships are being rebalanced to give them a role so that they all have a use (ideally).
PVP and PVE are not roles! Incursion running and WH site running are not roles!
Have a look at the recent cruiser changes or the T2 frigates and cruisers. Logistics, recon, interceptors, tanky brawlers, fast kiters, long range alpha DPS - these things are roles.
The rebalance is aiming to provide a similar role for Marauders and eventually all other T2 ships. How they are used in PVP and PVE is a matter for how well players are able to apply that role to PVP and PVE. Ships are not being and should never be rebalanced around a game mode. It defeats the whole purpose of it.
What most of the griping in this thread seems to be about is that people want a ship they can solo blitz all PVE content in. A ship that has great tank and DPS and damage application and salvaging and everything else. Wake up people it's not going to happen.
What we need to discuss is what roles do we see fitting with the Marauder as a T2 Battleship. Personally I quite liked the first concept of a long range, heavily tanked ship that could jump around as needed. |
|

Cael Autumn
e X i l e The Initiative.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:06:00 -
[2791] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=275537
Lazy board admin copies MY link to this thread (which goes directly to my previous comment) when he locks my other thread.
Then informs me that there's another discussion. No sh!t.
My thread was on a different idea, not a discussion of these changes.
Screw the bastion module and the gimmicky MJD bonus.
Give em' baked in bonuses, and let them 'maraud. They are maurauders, after all. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
344
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:10:00 -
[2792] - Quote
Decaff Harkonnen wrote:I'm about 20 days away from finishing my training for the Golem and you dumb b@$tards are trying to change the role of the damn ship? I mean seriously? Make a new class of BS for this ridiculous bull$h1t. A$$h013s you realize that there is almost no effective change to the golem other than you get a "turn ewar off/oh **** extra tank" button.
Sato Page wrote:What made me worry the most is CCP's wild swing between bonuses and roles in the matter of days. CCP do you know what you are doing? and yea that is kinda why I'm scratching my head. seems like they are trying to jackhammer marauders into two separate roles. pve ownage, and weird sniper pvp thingys. when you look at both of the roles combined the bonuses tend to not make sense. the 90% webs can either be completely useless or a critical part of the ship. close range pvp awesome! 100km sniper fit useless, lv4s mostly useless, incursions depends on what role you are playing, but 90% webs are very awesome on at least a few ships.
or the MJD bonus + tractor beam bonus (not to mention the pvp role) tractor beam isn't going to be doing much for you in pvp, or at 100km from npc wrecks. however the 48km tractor beams (suck it anyone who only has 40km tractors!) are the main reason I fly my marauders. Duo of death is a crappy annoying mission, however having that long range tractor to get the can at the end makes it bearable.
maybe it would make more sense to give marauders bastion, and then give black ops (or maybe even make a tech 2 battle ship based of the tier 3 battleships! or make some techie two tier3 battlecrusiers?) the snipey death cannon power module!
as far as marauders go I think the paladin maybe needs a teeny bit of love, the golem is fine with cruise, maybe could use a torp buff (or just buff torps), vargur could use a bit of love, and kronos needs the most love. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
344
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:14:00 -
[2793] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:The idea with designing a ship class should be to give it capabilities and let it loose and see where it ends up. People thought the Tengu was so-so for level 4's, and then they discovered the 100MN fits, and the price of CNR's dipped because you could get equal performance and way too much tank from a Tengu. This shows that what you may think a ship is intended for gets warped and twisted around by the players who find novel and unique ways to use them.
ummmm.... I don't think anyone was using 100mn ab tengus for pve, well at least not for lv 4s. especially considering you can tank em just fine with a small booster and 10mn ab. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chimpface Holocaust
Zarnfell
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:26:00 -
[2794] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top.
They also are receiving full Tech2 resists.
Am I the only one that noticed this? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:29:00 -
[2795] - Quote
Chimpface Holocaust wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top.
They also are receiving full Tech2 resists. Am I the only one that noticed this?
That was from the old version of Bastion with 30% non-stacking penalized resists. Obviously he just forgot to edit that bit out. Oops.  |

Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1160
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:37:00 -
[2796] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
It will go like this. Two people are playing a game. One in, eg, a Vindicator and the other a Vargur. They begin playing a PVP game. Vindicator: "I play my 1500 DPS card!" Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. (repeat 52 times) Vindicator: Okaaaaay, and now GAME FIXED Vargur: I better dock up now. Vindicator: MOTHERF****** ******* *******! The problem with this equation is the vindicator wont tank the vargur for half an hour.
Have you ever seen a Vindicator with twin X-type reps? It can tank the Vargur indefinitely.
if you refer to my post, yes, a dual XLASB Vargur with the Bastion module could get a 4500 DPS tank totally capless. It will still only put out 1000-1200 DPS with 800mm ACs. It has a limited amount of cap boosters. There is an end to its "game breaking". If that is after 1 minute or 15, so be it.
My point is that just as people who know what a pimped 100MN Tengu is capable of with boosts and Crystals will not wilfully engage, people will not wilfully engage Vargurs in certain situations. That is up to the adversary to figure out. The Vargur with Bastion mode on will rely on others to hold people in place for it to destroy, or for people to welp themselves into it. Just like a 100MN Tengu or a nano gang relies of people foolishly following after them to get kills.
That's not overpowered. That is skill, both to fly the Vargur so you don't get dropped on by a Nyx or a Moros, and to oppose a Vargur so you land scram, force it to turtle up and pin it down so you can marshall the horde.
Honestly, the same can be said for people who drop carriers solo in lowsec. it works great until that one time it doesn't. Believe me, if someone starts being a bastard with a Vargur in lowsec it will get hotdropped. All it takes is a scram bomber with a cyno, and it's lights out.
Great lossmail, though. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
496
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:38:00 -
[2797] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Crimminy still with the "waah waah Marauders will suck at level 4's with Bastion and MJD".
Here's the thing: MJD + Bastion might not suit your style of doing level 4's as you do them now (slowly motor to out gate while blam-blam) and you may need to adjust your play style to utilise them propelry...but how is that 'ruining' the ship class for its supposed 'intended role'?
The idea with designing a ship class should be to give it capabilities and let it loose and see where it ends up. People thought the Tengu was so-so for level 4's, and then they discovered the 100MN fits, and the price of CNR's dipped because you could get equal performance and way too much tank from a Tengu. This shows that what you may think a ship is intended for gets warped and twisted around by the players who find novel and unique ways to use them.
I thought the MJD was a fairly pointless module. Suddenly, there's people mumbling the 3 minute cooldown timer hurts them because they have to jump away from Level 4 mission rats twice which takes them 6 minutes to get back to gate.
Oh, hey, you can do it in 1/3rd the time with a Marauder with the Bastion mode! zomg!
The problem with the line of thinking that marauders are intended for PVE in level 4s (or as now, warped by Incursion bear whining) is that this leads to revisions and rebalances that further force the ship into what "the community' sees as an intended role.
Sure, this may be true of HICs and Dictors and Logi of all kinds, as these are very specialised ships. However, all other T2 combat ships have ship bonuses which give them special abilities and people automagically come up with interesting uses. Sentry ishtar ratting? Check. Blops running 8/10's? Check. Stealth bombers doing level 4 FW missions? Check. Soloing level 4's in Retributions? Check. Oh. My. God. CCP better buff these ships so they are more effective at their intended role of missioning!
Sarcasm in case you missed it.
The iteration 1 marauder changes gave us a niche PVP ship which would solo small POSs (yeah baby), Dickstars (hahaha), totally ruin the lamest "PVP" in EVE (being docking games), allow donut punching of lowsec gate camps (huehuehue). The problem? You can't run incursions. But you CAN destroy Level 4's. Well, shucks.
iteration 2 is a compromise which barely reduces the Marauder's use in PVE, assuming you can figure out MJD missioning style and aren't prone to ridiculously overtanking your ships for missions because you want your AFK Rattler back. It really only increases their use back to slightly worse than pirate BS for incursions. not that anyone uses them in incursions now, nor will they afterwards.
What it does do is destroys its use in PVP in any conceivable fashion. Docking games are back on because if you are going to undock a marauder, you may as well undock a Vindicator. Yay, thumbs up!
Lowsec gate camps won't have to worry about these things permatanking them while their gangmates destroy the pirates. Your sniper mode Marauder is gone, the 80% web being about as useful as bulls with DD boobs.
Whereas before i was looking forward to dropping one into harms way, assured that if I calculated right I'd have a good 10-15 minutes of fun and get a few kills baiting people, now its just a more expensive and less useful navy Faction BS equivalent with a "kill me now" module and no utility.
Be brave, CCP Ytterbium. Maybe fiddle the Bastion resist bonus to being a free DCU, or 5% across the board non-penalised. Keep the active rep bonus so you can actually tank outside Bastion mode (while, eg, hoofing it to gate), and tank in the 2-3K range while in it. You will then have a small gang or even solo boat able to punch hard, tank stronk and be a PITA.
Structure the other bonuses to actually work together to make a formidable long range platform which can protect itself from numpty ceptor pilots, idiots who blow their sig and can't tank 1000-1200 DPS and can't rid themselves of tackle. Leave the web bonus out, it will then be the achilles heel and force marauder pilots to work hard on their fits to counter the inevitable hero tackle Incursus of doom.
Iteration 1 Marauders, piloted by smart people with good gangs who pick their fights were going to be a handful. Well, guess what, an 850 DPS 280K EHP rail Proteus is a handful right now and you don't have any "kill me now" module on T3's like you do with iteration 2. It's amazing feeling when someone makes a write-up that encompasses all yout thoughts and then some. Thank you, kind sir. This should be seen. |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:40:00 -
[2798] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
It will go like this. Two people are playing a game. One in, eg, a Vindicator and the other a Vargur. They begin playing a PVP game. Vindicator: "I play my 1500 DPS card!" Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. Vargur: GAME BREAKER. (repeat 52 times) Vindicator: Okaaaaay, and now GAME FIXED Vargur: I better dock up now. Vindicator: MOTHERF****** ******* *******! The problem with this equation is the vindicator wont tank the vargur for half an hour. Have you ever seen a Vindicator with twin X-type reps? It can tank the Vargur indefinitely. if you refer to my post, yes, a dual XLASB Vargur with the Bastion module could get a 4500 DPS tank totally capless. It will still only put out 1000-1200 DPS with 800mm ACs. It has a limited amount of cap boosters. There is an end to its "game breaking". If that is after 1 minute or 15, so be it. My point is that just as people who know what a pimped 100MN Tengu is capable of with boosts and Crystals will not wilfully engage, people will not wilfully engage Vargurs in certain situations. That is up to the adversary to figure out. The Vargur with Bastion mode on will rely on others to hold people in place for it to destroy, or for people to welp themselves into it. Just like a 100MN Tengu or a nano gang relies of people foolishly following after them to get kills. That's not overpowered. That is skill, both to fly the Vargur so you don't get dropped on by a Nyx or a Moros, and to oppose a Vargur so you land scram, force it to turtle up and pin it down so you can marshall the horde. Honestly, the same can be said for people who drop carriers solo in lowsec. it works great until that one time it doesn't. Believe me, if someone starts being a bastard with a Vargur in lowsec it will get hotdropped. All it takes is a scram bomber with a cyno, and it's lights out. Great lossmail, though.
Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 04:52:00 -
[2799] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever
aaaand he still doesnt get it... |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:03:00 -
[2800] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever aaaand he still doesnt get it... it's supercool to see obviously hisec miners teach everyone how pvp works. YESS, I mean.. this bastion will fix pvp for marauders, they be marauding around alll day and night - doing this marauding stuff you know. They will eat vindis and tengus and and and small kittens and then some more. HelL! they will bastion up at my neighbour dog's cerial bowl and eat it all dry before dog could even notice!!!!!!!!
"fix" pvp for marauders it will just make the asb more op than it already is. :( |
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:06:00 -
[2801] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever aaaand he still doesnt get it... it's supercool to see obviously hisec miners teach everyone how pvp works. YESS, I mean.. this bastion will fix pvp for marauders, they be marauding around alll day and night - doing this marauding stuff you know. They will eat vindis and tengus and and and small kittens and then some more. HelL! they will bastion up at my neighbour dog's cerial bowl and eat it all dry before dog could even notice!!!!!!!! "fix" pvp for marauders it will just make the asb more op than it already is. :(
do you see pimp ships in pvp alot? I mean.. you do see them pirate BS-es doing alot pvp right?
real EVE pvp is not ALLIANCE TOURNAMENT!!!!! |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
5750
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:08:00 -
[2802] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever aaaand he still doesnt get it... it's supercool to see obviously hisec miners teach everyone how pvp works. YESS, I mean.. this bastion will fix pvp for marauders, they be marauding around alll day and night - doing this marauding stuff you know. They will eat vindis and tengus and and and small kittens and then some more. HelL! they will bastion up at my neighbour dog's cerial bowl and eat it all dry before dog could even notice!!!!!!!! Okay seriously no one is going to use 1.3bil+ marauder + alot of training time to be effective in PVP if it doesnt do more damage than 4 TIMES CHEAPER ship. This marauder might become pos bashing ship but then again why the hell because there are again better ships for that! PVE? bastion module would allow noob players to do hisec missions easier.. old players wh ohave anyways max skills wont use it because they dont need it at the moment, nor they will need that extra tank and stuff in future. lvl5-s? in 3 bil pimp marauder? NO! Incursions? Well great... totally useless at the moment and totally useless in the future. vindi, nm, mach still outdo (insert random marauder) in every god damn way. Marauders will only slow down whole fleet. Anyways if some pilot has skills for Kronos then he will be asked to switch to Vindicatior and end of god damn story or no fleet invite. Native Freshfood understands PVP. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
629
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:09:00 -
[2803] - Quote
I'm going to try and go through this point-by-point, if it will fit.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Or, and this is just a thought, we could have the Marauders be good at tanking with good resists (from a full T2 resist profile) and good damage application and/or projection along with a bonus to local tank. This can be balanced out by overall slow speed and align times and overall lower damage.
The main things you need for most PvE, where these ships should be expected to excel, is good damage application and a good local tank. For incursions you just need good resists and EHP but honestly I could live with these ships not being the king of Incursions, you can do incursions in a T1 Battleship just fine and incursion runners don't actually need more Isk per hour.
If you get your local active tanking improvement via resists, that also makes the ship more proficient at receiving remote reps (yes, I know that the current proposal has them un-RR-able in Bastion mode, but personally I think the Bastion module is a mistake, and resists will still apply to receiving RRs outside the mode anyway). If the goal is to avoid making the ship overpowered for fleet scenarios while still having a very strong tank for solo PvE, a baller resist profile is not the way to go.
I do agree with you though that T1 BS handle Incursions etc just fine and should the the optimal ship for that purpose.
Cade Windstalker wrote: As to the idea that PvP ships need to be flexible, I direct your attention to the Attack Battlecruisers, three of which have no drone bay and which tend to fit speed and damage and not much else. These are hardly flexible ships but they're extremely widely used in PvP.
Poor example: Attack BCs are actually an ideal example of a very flexible skirmish ship because their combination of excellent agility, speed, scan-resolution, and damage projection allows them to quickly lock up targets of all sizes and apply damage to them while leveraging their excellent mobility to dictate range and mitigate tracking problems. While attack BCs technically aren't T2 hulls, they might as well be-- they're definitely a role-specialized ship that excels at one thing (small-scale PvP) while being fairly useless for PvE (now that anoms have been rebalanced to include smaller NPCs) and having only a very limited niche role in fleet operations (as parts of small sniper wings). I would be pretty comfortable applying this level of specialization to T2 battleships.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Also the specialization isn't "Ytterbium's design gimmick" he wrote that post but you can bet there were a dozen more more meetings between him and everyone else doing ship design to hash out a set of overall guidelines for the ship rebalancing. Rise even brought up that HACs were being left as an exception to the rule because they already had a place in Eve and they didn't want to invalidate that with their changes.
Well, I suppose we'll never know which dev was responsible for which aspects of things, but at the end of the day it's Ytterbium's posts that I tend to find poorly thought out. Don't get me wrong-- it's not like I have a massive hadron for all of Fozzie or Rise's ideas, but at least theirs are hit-or-miss rather than miss-or-miss.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Also, seriously, you just said "sneaky and skirmishy" and applied that to Marauders instead of Black-Ops? Really?
Sneaky relative to T1, yes. My idea is to have Marauders have bonuses to the use of normal cloaks in much the same way that Blackops currently do, while transitioning Blackops hulls over to covert ops cloaks (making them the last word in BS-class sneakiness as opposed to "somewhat sneaky").
Cade Windstalker wrote: So yeah, personally I have plenty of faith in Ytterbium and the rest of the CCP balance team. So far they've been doing a great job. Your ideas though I don't have so much faith in. Go get a job as a professional game designer and then you can start calling other designers bad.
Um, I'd just like to point out that CCP have a track-record of hiring non-game designers as game designers for EVE. I believe that seven years of experience playing this terrible game counts at least as much as a professional background when it comes to devising solutions to EVE-specific problems. IIRC Fozzie or Rise (I can't remember which) has a degree in political science-- apparently this doesn't stop you from taking them seriously. They were hired because of their extensive EVE experience and general loveability! |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:09:00 -
[2804] - Quote
with 100% inflation i dont see much bs pvp at all
i dont consider nullsec pvp bs pvp unless its solo |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
5750
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:21:00 -
[2805] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:with 100% inflation i dont see much bs pvp at all
i dont consider nullsec pvp bs pvp unless its solo That's one of the most absurd positions I've seen in a long time. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
111
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:35:00 -
[2806] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever Super Stuff. Native Freshfood understands PVP.
Yeah but completly ignore small gangs.
If the only thing Eve has to offer is Fleet fights and Solo PvE, then please shut down the Server... |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
5750
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 05:44:00 -
[2807] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Vindicator wont last as long on cap boosters, Vindicator dual 800 boosted vs Vargur dual 400s in the ASBs tengu could do it 100mn fit could kite/speed tank it untill it ran out of charges which would take forever Super Stuff. Native Freshfood understands PVP. Yeah but completly ignore small gangs. If the only thing Eve has to offer is Fleet fights and Solo PvE, then please shut down the Server... Because a ship has to be good at everything or it's worth nothing. My Youtube Channel Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:10:00 -
[2808] - Quote
Welp, point for point I guess. Amazed yours fit lets see if mine will too.
Ganthrithor wrote:If you get your local active tanking improvement via resists, that also makes the ship more proficient at receiving remote reps (yes, I know that the current proposal has them un-RR-able in Bastion mode, but personally I think the Bastion module is a mistake, and resists will still apply to receiving RRs outside the mode anyway). If the goal is to avoid making the ship overpowered for fleet scenarios while still having a very strong tank for solo PvE, a baller resist profile is not the way to go.
I do agree with you though that T1 BS handle Incursions etc just fine and should the the optimal ship for that purpose.
I'm mostly unconcerned with high base resists as long as they have lower damage. If a T1 Battleship hull can do more raw damage for less SP then Null will still be stocking their fleets with those rather than Marauders. It also helps if the overall base EHP is lower to make up for it too. As I said though, that's up to CCP. Personally I'm a little wary of T2 resist Battleships in PvP but at least as long as they don't have innate resist bonuses it can't go as ridiculous as the Vulture and Damnation but on a Battleship scale.
I should also rephrase a bit. I don't think these should do *better* than current incursion ships. I would like to be able to use them personally since I can't fly any of the Pirate Battleships. I have Gallente/Caldari trained but no interest in Minmattar so the Vindi is meh to me and I don't have the missile or drone skills for the Rattlesnake (which is lackluster in incursions anyway). If they come out about on par with current offerings trading a bit of tank for a bit of damage I'd be fine with that.
Ganthrithor wrote:Poor example: Attack BCs are actually an ideal example of a very flexible skirmish ship because their combination of excellent agility, speed, scan-resolution, and damage projection allows them to quickly lock up targets of all sizes and apply damage to them while leveraging their excellent mobility to dictate range and mitigate tracking problems. While attack BCs technically aren't T2 hulls, they might as well be-- they're definitely a role-specialized ship that excels at one thing (small-scale PvP) while being fairly useless for PvE (now that anoms have been rebalanced to include smaller NPCs) and having only a very limited niche role in fleet operations (as parts of small sniper wings). I would be pretty comfortable applying this level of specialization to T2 battleships.
That's more focused then flexible. It's just a very good combination of attributes that make for powerful and cost-effective ships when used right. In other environments though they get taken apart in seconds with the right counter. They basically trade HP for damage and the ability to shoot smaller things for mobility. It's a very good but focused combo with some interesting trade-offs.
Ganthrithor wrote:Well, I suppose we'll never know which dev was responsible for which aspects of things, but at the end of the day it's Ytterbium's posts that I tend to find poorly thought out. Don't get me wrong-- it's not like I have a massive hadron for all of Fozzie or Rise's ideas, but at least theirs are hit-or-miss rather than miss-or-miss.
Ideas like these aren't created in a vacuum. They don't lock Fozzie, Rise, or Ytterbium in a box and tell them they can't come out until the ships are balanced. All three of these people and several more we don't get to interact with are working together on these bouncing ideas and testing things. If you don't like Ytterbium's posts then... oh well? Could be just bad luck that he's adjusted things in ways you don't like (I'm rather fond of the Navy Battlecruisers though, which was one of his). Overall though I was rather fond of his first iteration on Marauders. These are PvE focused ships and the original idea was something new and interesting that deviated from old established bonuses.
Ganthrithor wrote:Sneaky relative to T1, yes. My idea is to have Marauders have bonuses to the use of normal cloaks in much the same way that Blackops currently do, while transitioning Blackops hulls over to covert ops cloaks (making them the last word in BS-class sneakiness as opposed to "somewhat sneaky").
Again, still a Black-Ops ship, not a Marauder. Marauders at present have absolutely nothing to do with cloaking, Black-Ops do. Plus CCP stated way back that they were thinking of splitting the class into support and combat ships. Personally I don't think that's likely to still happen but I do think your concept fits better there than it does under some new ship class. A Covert/Improve cloaking split on Black-Ops hulls could have interesting implications.
Either way it's a new ship class and has very little to do with rebalancing the existing ship class. If you want to push for re-naming them then by all means go ahead, if only to get rid of people arguing that balance should match the definition of a word.
Ganthrithor wrote:Um, I'd just like to point out that CCP have a track-record of hiring non-game designers as game designers for EVE. I believe that seven years of experience playing this terrible game counts at least as much as a professional background when it comes to devising solutions to EVE-specific problems. IIRC Fozzie or Rise (I can't remember which) has a degree in political science-- apparently this doesn't stop you from taking them seriously. They were hired because of their extensive EVE experience and general loveability!
If CCP would hire me, I'd accept in a second-- and then you could take me seriously too!
I never said get a game design degree, I said get a job as one. It's rather thankless work (eg, this thread). Lots of games hire players but that's because they have good design sense, not because they've played a long time. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
456
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:11:00 -
[2809] - Quote
mark sean wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
I also agree with this persons statement. This will make shields extremely over powered. While armor will be left in the dust. Unless there is some kind of fix i don't see this going well in terms of rebalancing.
The nature of ASBs vs AARs already makes local armour repair of little value.
ASB: Over size No cap Multiple mods allowed front of cycle
Check
AAR only one per ship Fitting equal to same size repper Cap consumption equal as well Reps far less It's there even a capital size?
........gee tough choice there
I guess you could make the cargo argument.....till you look at the cost on nanopaste.
|

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:14:00 -
[2810] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it.  70k? scorch on a pulse apoc gets 90km. then add the bastion 25% to optimal/fall off and u have a 135km pulse paladin. yer lookin at like 200km tachyon paly.
Multifrequency, my friend, glorious, glorious Multifrequency. I doubt a Tachy-Paladin will use ammo other than MF and Gamma when this change hits. |
|

Roime
The Scope Gallente Federation
3328
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:23:00 -
[2811] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:So, to sum up my previous post:
1. We're generally talking about three usage scenarios here: conventional PvE (anoms / missions), small-scale PvP (solo, small gang), and large-scale fleet PvP / PvE (I think it's safe to lump fleet fights and Incursion / WH PvP into this category, since the mechanics share a lot of overall similarities)
2. These three usage scenarios each demand a different set of competences from a ship
3. A ship that possessed multiple sets of competences would be supremely overpowered
4. A ship that possessed portions of multiple sets of competences would not be overpowered, but would also excel at nothing and therefore be incapable of justifying a T2 pricetag
5. Conclusion: it is best to build separate, specialized T2 hulls for traditional PvE and small-scale PvP, while leaving large-scale PvP and PvE to the more generalist hulls that already exist and fill these roles very well.
Interestingly, the whole "T2 ships not better, but specialized" thing is Ytterbium's own design gimmick, which leaves me even more perplexed as to why he seems to have taken an antithetical approach with his proposed Marauder changes. Ytterbium's proposed ships are a perfect example of #4 here-- a ship that tries to specialize in two things, but makes so many tradeoffs to avoid being overpowered in either role that it ends up offering no useful benefits in either. The current blackops BS have the same problem: if you fit them for combat, you're wasting their logistics bonuses and end up with a ship that's not particularly good at combat; if you fit them as a gang-support ship, you waste their combat-friendly attributes and end up with a ship that isn't particularly good at being a jump-bridge. It would be infinitely preferable to just have a selection of ships where each one caters to one of these usage patterns-- a new PvE battleship for doing conventional, solo PvE; a new Marauder that focuses on being a little bit sneaky and very skirmishy; a new blackops that actually does it's job of being very sneaky while supporting covert gangs well; and the newly-rebalanced T1 battleships for generalist uses like fleet PvP, Incursions and wormholes. By separating the ships out by roles, it becomes possible to create a ship that can justify its pricetag for one activity while not being too good at another.
"PVP" and "PVE" are not roles and "PVE ship" or "PVP ship" doesn't mean anything. And on top of that, designing a ship for PVE would just end up in the state marauders currently are- **** ships that nobody flies, because pirate BS, ships not designed for a ********, non-existing arbitrary misconception of a role are better in PVE activities.
Ships are designed to perform a task, or execute a tactic. Kiter, brawler, logistics, tackler, booster are roles. Marauder is a role, and it's a new role with no existing meta in game- there are no functional T2 combat battleships in game currently. This is what CCP is trying to do, and if they succeed, people will adopt it, metas emerge and then also EVE happens- ship finds other uses.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
456
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:38:00 -
[2812] - Quote
Quote:
Ships are designed to perform a task, or execute a tactic. Kiter, brawler, logistics, tackler, booster are roles. Marauder is a role, and it's a new role with no existing meta in game- there are no functional T2 general combat battleships in game currently. This is what CCP is trying to do, and if they succeed, people will adopt it, metas emerge and then also EVE happens- ship finds other uses.
Well if they have an eye on doing anything PvP wise with them that bastion mode needs help.
Local reps only Can't move No damage bonus?
What do you do with it other then present a half a dread loot pinata? They are to slow to use against anything but a potato fleet, no damage bonus, can't break slows without multi fleets, bastion mode blocking remote reps means you can't use them defensively, they just get alpha'd eventually.....oh and T2 insurance, a dread would likely cost the same to lose.
So WTF are you supposed to do with a presumed billion isk "PvP" battleship.
The module mode battleship idea is cool, but we see with triage aka suicide carriers and siege dreads how well local reps work in fleet combat. |

Daylani
Aegis Requiem. Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:49:00 -
[2813] - Quote
If you take the non-bastioned shield boost bonus from my vargur im gonna cry :,( By Popular Demand |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
629
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 06:51:00 -
[2814] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: I'm mostly unconcerned with high base resists as long as they have lower damage. If a T1 Battleship hull can do more raw damage for less SP then Null will still be stocking their fleets with those rather than Marauders. It also helps if the overall base EHP is lower to make up for it too. As I said though, that's up to CCP. Personally I'm a little wary of T2 resist Battleships in PvP but at least as long as they don't have innate resist bonuses it can't go as ridiculous as the Vulture and Damnation but on a Battleship scale.
On the other hand, if it does less damage than a T1 BS, why PvE with it? I still think that only providing a tanking increase for the PvE T2 BS would be a mistake, since T1 / faction BS (or T3 cruisers) don't really have tanking problems for solo PvE content to begin with. T3 cruisers (the Tengu in particular) already offer absurd combinations of range, tank, and DPS for solo PvE.
Cade Windstalker wrote: I should also rephrase a bit. I don't think these should do *better* than current incursion ships. I would like to be able to use them personally since I can't fly any of the Pirate Battleships.
I'm sure something could be worked out so that the ships wouldn't be unusable for incursions.
Cade Windstalker wrote: That's more focused then flexible. It's just a very good combination of attributes that make for powerful and cost-effective ships when used right. In other environments though they get taken apart in seconds with the right counter. They basically trade HP for damage and the ability to shoot smaller things for mobility. It's a very good but focused combo with some interesting trade-offs.
My point is that it's a good example of specialization for PvP-- the hulls have a niche role or two in which they excel, and are pretty awful at anything else. I just think the T2 battleships should be similarly-specialized.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Ideas like these aren't created in a vacuum. They don't lock Fozzie, Rise, or Ytterbium in a box and tell them they can't come out until the ships are balanced. All three of these people and several more we don't get to interact with are working together on these bouncing ideas and testing things. If you don't like Ytterbium's posts then... oh well? Could be just bad luck that he's adjusted things in ways you don't like (I'm rather fond of the Navy Battlecruisers though, which was one of his). Overall though I was rather fond of his first iteration on Marauders. These are PvE focused ships and the original idea was something new and interesting that deviated from old established bonuses.
I'm not as offended by his proposal when considered as a dedicated PvE idea (I still don't think it offers enough improvement for PvE to justify its pricetag, but that could be worked around easily). It's the balance teams' idea that the same ship can be useful for PvP that I find mind-boggling. There needs to be a separate PvP ship.
Cade Windstalker wrote: Again, still a Black-Ops ship, not a Marauder. Marauders at present have absolutely nothing to do with cloaking, Black-Ops do. Plus CCP stated way back that they were thinking of splitting the class into support and combat ships. Personally I don't think that's likely to still happen but I do think your concept fits better there than it does under some new ship class. A Covert/Improve cloaking split on Black-Ops hulls could have interesting implications.
Either way it's a new ship class and has very little to do with rebalancing the existing ship class. If you want to push for re-naming them then by all means go ahead, if only to get rid of people arguing that balance should match the definition of a word.
Being myself, I don't really care that much what they call it, but it does seem to me like there should be separate categories for a non-covert, DPS ship and a covert-cloaking support ship. I guess you could argue that either way, though-- HACs and recons are in different groups (one's a DPS ship, one's a support) but Combat Recons and Force Recons are in the same group (covert vs non-covert, both support ships). Either way, as long as there's a Marauder that Marauds, I'll be pleased. |

Roime
The Scope Gallente Federation
3328
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:13:00 -
[2815] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Quote:
Ships are designed to perform a task, or execute a tactic. Kiter, brawler, logistics, tackler, booster are roles. Marauder is a role, and it's a new role with no existing meta in game- there are no functional T2 general combat battleships in game currently. This is what CCP is trying to do, and if they succeed, people will adopt it, metas emerge and then also EVE happens- ship finds other uses.
Well if they have an eye on doing anything PvP wise with them that bastion mode needs help. Local reps only Can't move No damage bonus? What do you do with it other then present a half a dread loot pinata? They are to slow to use against anything but a potato fleet, no damage bonus, can't break slows without multi fleets, bastion mode blocking remote reps means you can't use them defensively, they just get alpha'd eventually.....oh and T2 insurance, a dread would likely cost the same to lose. So WTF are you supposed to do with a presumed billion isk "PvP" battleship. The module mode battleship idea is cool, but we see with triage aka suicide carriers and siege dreads how well local reps work in fleet combat.
This is exactly what I mean, "PVP" is not a term describing an activity in any detail, it's a class of greatly varying activities from solo roaming in FW lowsec, small T3 gangs in wormholes to supercap blobs. Most of the time people only comprehend "PVP" in their own context.
An example: Noob asks random people "Is Proteus any good for PVP?"
Lowsec guy says no, it's too expensive. Hisec guy says it's awesome on the undock with HG slaves and 17 neutral Guardian alts. Another lowsec guy says it's too slow and will be kited to death. Nullsec guy says it's useless as it can't project damage out to 50km. WH guys says it's the best ship for PVP for it's mass/dps/tank ratio.
They are all correct, but the question was broken to begin with. 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
629
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:14:00 -
[2816] - Quote
Roime wrote: "PVP" and "PVE" are not roles and "PVE ship" or "PVP ship" doesn't mean anything. And on top of that, designing a ship for PVE would just end up in the state marauders currently are- **** ships that nobody flies, because pirate BS, ships not designed for a ********, non-existing arbitrary misconception of a role are better in PVE activities
First, it sounds like pirate BS will be on the chopping block soon.
Second, Marauders aren't bad ships that nobody flies because they're specialized for PvE-- they're bad ships that nobody flies because they're specialized for PvE but still do it badly, or at least they don't do it as well as other ships.
Lastly, you're right-- noone is going to come out and put into the flavortext description of a ship that is is only to be used in PvE or PvP. This is EVE, and people can fit / use their ships however they like. There are absolutely ships that are designed with one or the other in mind, however, and are generally used in the role they were designed for.
Roime wrote:there are no functional T2 general combat battleships in game currently
I think that's by design. The only T2 "general combat" ships in the game are HACs, and for some reason CCP decided to give them a free pass for historical reasons rather than specializing them. |

Galdrak
Interplanetary Trade Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:19:00 -
[2817] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost.
This is the most common suggestion in the thread and has my money as the best way forward, adds versatility and diversity. The specifics need refining by a LONG THUROUGH playtest and more feedback but its definitely got my money
could i suggest a t2 variant of the bastion module?
i understand the devs issues with power creep and imbalance, however, like real life the arms race forces improvement: insisting that we continue to keep searching for that imbalance and exploiting it . |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:33:00 -
[2818] - Quote
Regarding the web bonus.
This bonus is useful and does work well with the micro jump drive. The only risk to these ships is being scrambled and unable to jump, especially if you have opted for light tank.
Now you can argue that NPC ships do not scram, but most of this content even pre dates the use of microwarpdrives in dead space complexes and one of the first changes I would make if I was being fiendish with NPC content would be to throw in a few actual scrambling frigates. It is inevitable that there is at least done PVE overhaul at some point and if anything the drone aggro mechanics changed show CCP is definitely willing to be fiendish.
Even then there is more to PVE content than High Sec Missions. Any player wishing to try and use these ships to try PVE in Null, Low or wormholes is going to be grateful for the web bonus as an anti tackle measure.
The incursion and PVP benefits are also quite obvious. |

Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:37:00 -
[2819] - Quote
I like the ideato use scripts for bastion. For example script that will dramatically increase self-repair (300-400%) but also decreased combat capability. You can't change script while bastion running.
Or script that add neut immune.
Scripts will give much more customization and flexibility.
Main problem with bastion in PvP is that you can't get help from your fleet members (tbh logist... Its always about logists. Game meta - use logists in fleet or die). Mb if marauder could omni-tank medium gank (like he get reps from 2-3 logists) for a short time, mb it will be ok in PvP. |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:38:00 -
[2820] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
Could you at least answer the essential question people have been asking here for... 140 pages? What role do you want the marauder to fulfill? And where do you see its most pressing weaknesses or attributes you want to boost compared to other ships that can fulfill that role, respectively other BS hulls? |
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:40:00 -
[2821] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:On the other hand, if it does less damage than a T1 BS, why PvE with it? I still think that only providing a tanking increase for the PvE T2 BS would be a mistake, since T1 / faction BS (or T3 cruisers) don't really have tanking problems for solo PvE content to begin with. T3 cruisers (the Tengu in particular) already offer absurd combinations of range, tank, and DPS for solo PvE.
Because one of the biggest problems in PvE is damage application. You want to bring tanky ships with lots of damage, which means Battleships most of the time but missions, Incursions, and exploration sites all have frigates and cruisers (and fast battleships in some cases) that you can't apply full DPS to. Against these enemies Webs, Target Painters, and Tracking Computers are very important. Tanking bonuses allow you both tank high damage PvE encounters and potentially fit more damage boosting or damage application modules like Heat Sinks, Gyrostabilizers, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, Webs, and Target Painters.
Case and point, one of the most popular T1 incursion battleships is the Rokh because it can fit more utility-mids due to its resists bonus and has a range bonus which helps with sniping in Assaults and HQs with Railguns and puts Blasters at optimal ranges against frigates and cruisers in Vanguards.
Ganthrithor wrote:I'm sure something could be worked out so that the ships wouldn't be unusable for incursions.
I certainly hope so but I'd rather it not be a hard requirement.
Plus if given a choice I'd rather see a Mordu's Legion line of ships using Hybrids. The Rokh looks awesome with Mordu's colors
Ganthrithor wrote:My point is that it's a good example of specialization for PvP-- the hulls have a niche role or two in which they excel, and are pretty awful at anything else. I just think the T2 battleships should be similarly-specialized.
I certainly agree with you here, I'd just like to keep the Bastion as an option though but something more similar to the relationship Carriers have with Triage. It's great and gives them nice bonuses but isn't mandatory like the Dreadnaught's Siege module is (Veldnaught not withstanding ).
Ganthrithor wrote:I'm not as offended by his proposal when considered as a dedicated PvE idea (I still don't think it offers enough improvement for PvE to justify its pricetag, but that could be worked around easily). It's the balance teams' idea that the same ship can be useful for PvP that I find mind-boggling. There needs to be a separate PvP ship.
I disagree, enough so to the point that I'm working on my own version of a full proposal. If everyone and their corp-mate is doing one I might as well work up a full concept too. 
Ganthrithor wrote:Being myself, I don't really care that much what they call it, but it does seem to me like there should be separate categories for a non-covert, DPS ship and a covert-cloaking support ship. I guess you could argue that either way, though-- HACs and recons are in different groups (one's a DPS ship, one's a support) but Combat Recons and Force Recons are in the same group (covert vs non-covert, both support ships). Either way, as long as there's a Marauder that Marauds, I'll be pleased.
I think that a tanky ship with good damage application would fit the current definition of "Marauder" perfectly. Large tank and cargo-bay for sustained combat. Good damage application for dealing with small annoying threats as well as support ships (which tend to sit away from the battle and/or be hard to apply damage to).
The mobility is not strictly necessary for something to be a "Marauder" and the actual literal definition of "maraud" is simply "To roam in search of things to steal or people to attack." This was probably selected as the name for a set of mission ships as a joke on the money-focused nature of many High Sec mission runners and because it sounded cool.
As for the cloaky ship, I would be rather surprised given the current Black-Ops bonus set if they didn't focus the Black Ops revamp on mobility and agility over raw gank power, with probably half the line having a little focus on something like E-War support since the Widow and Panther seem to be the most popular of the current hulls (E-war and Speed respectively). |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
457
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:45:00 -
[2822] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
I think that's by design. The only T2 "general combat" ships in the game are HACs, and for some reason CCP decided to give them a free pass for historical reasons rather than specializing them.
The T2 cruisers have defined roles, and as such can themselves into damn near any fleet.
I also think they dicked the dog pretty well with the HACs in general.
I can't see where they are going, other than a ship that PvPs worse than the ENTIRE T1 line up, and PvEs worse that most of the T1s and 3/4 of the pirate ships with the fourth being debatable......all of which are comparable in price.
Without making a second module that doesn't make the ship an immobile brick using it and just a slow brick without it I don't know how they are going to resolve mauraders into anything desirable. |

Sturmwolke
439
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:49:00 -
[2823] - Quote
I'll just throw this in here :
~148 days max (no implant) - to fully skill (L5) the marauder hull, sans gunnery/support skills. ~80 days max (no implant) - to fully skill (L5) a typical pirate BS hull, sans gunnery/support skills.
The marauder skill is a rank 10, the last level will take approx 30+days to finish with max implants. It becomes almost like a holy grail at L5 ... long train, little reason.
Please keep the above in mind when doing the marauder iteration. |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:49:00 -
[2824] - Quote
BLINK MARAUDERS: blink mode:
------------------------------------/ GÇó t2 resist GÇó MJD blinky blinky GÇó target spectrum breaker ------------------------------------/
Bonus: Bastion and hybrid ancillary/buffer tank. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:54:00 -
[2825] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:I'll just throw this in here :
~148 days max (no implant) - to fully skill (L5) the marauder hull, sans gunnery/support skills. ~80 days max (no implant) - to fully skill (L5) a typical pirate BS hull, sans gunnery/support skills.
The marauder skill is a rank 10, the last level will take approx 30+days to finish with max implants. It becomes almost like a holy grail at L5 ... long train, little reason.
Please keep the above in mind when doing the marauder iteration.
On the flip side though, you only have to train Marauders once and can get all four race's. Also I'm assuming those train times don't factor in a focused remap or implants... |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:02:00 -
[2826] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Native Freshfood understands PVP.
bleh bleh bleh bluh bleh derp bleh derp derp
that much you just contributed towards better marauders, ty! |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11491
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:07:00 -
[2827] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
I also think they dicked the dog pretty well with the HACs in general.
I can't see where they are going, other than a ship that PvPs worse than the ENTIRE T1 line up, and PvEs worse that most of the T1s and 3/4 of the pirate ships with the fourth being debatable......all of which are comparable in price.
My cerb v your caracal, let's do this
1 Kings 12:11
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:11:00 -
[2828] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Onictus wrote:
I also think they dicked the dog pretty well with the HACs in general.
I can't see where they are going, other than a ship that PvPs worse than the ENTIRE T1 line up, and PvEs worse that most of the T1s and 3/4 of the pirate ships with the fourth being debatable......all of which are comparable in price.
My cerb v your caracal, let's do this
provide real numbers and reasons how and why is your cerb so good and why would you win... and if you lose to caracal that has buddy warping in @ you then how much you lose. vs. going to pick up another caracal |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:15:00 -
[2829] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
i cant understand this removeing web bonus was a good thing imho cause you realy dont need it on those ships... you dont need it in pve esp with the mjd
and you certrainly do not need it in fleets i guess nobody would fly one of theese solo anyway...
plz remove it and give them something they realy can make use of like warpcore str! |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:17:00 -
[2830] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Because one of the biggest problems in PvE is damage application. You want to bring tanky ships with lots of damage, which means Battleships most of the time but missions, Incursions, and exploration sites all have frigates and cruisers (and fast battleships in some cases) that you can't apply full DPS to. Against these enemies Webs, Target Painters, and Tracking Computers are very important. Tanking bonuses allow you both tank high damage PvE encounters and potentially fit more damage boosting or damage application modules like Heat Sinks, Gyrostabilizers, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, Webs, and Target Painters.
Case and point, one of the most popular T1 incursion battleships is the Rokh because it can fit more utility-mids due to its resists bonus and has a range bonus which helps with sniping in Assaults and HQs with Railguns and puts Blasters at optimal ranges against frigates and cruisers in Vanguards.
Was it you who linked that site originally? That site owns. I totally agree-- a Kalaakiota Rokh would own, and swapping the current Ishukone colorscheme for the Mordu's one across the board for Caldari would be awesome (I always loved the urban-camo look of the pre-V3 Ishukone ships).
Cade Windstalker wrote:I certainly agree with you here, I'd just like to keep the Bastion as an option though but something more similar to the relationship Carriers have with Triage. It's great and gives them nice bonuses but isn't mandatory like the Dreadnaught's Siege module is (Veldnaught not withstanding  ).
If they left the Bastion module as a damage application amplifier on the PvE BS, I wouldn't mind. As I said a while back, PvE is not my area of expertise (I've done a fair bit, but mostly in Tengus, which pretty much break all the rules of EVE and tank absurdly well while destroying everything in their path), and I'm way more open to various proposals for PvE features for a PvE-focused BS. Speaking of which...
Cade Windstalker wrote:I disagree, enough so to the point that I'm working on my own version of a full proposal. If everyone and their corp-mate is doing one I might as well work up a full concept too. 
Your post actually got me thinking about an idea I had for "my Marauders" as a possible role bonus-- leaving them with reduced max dps numbers compared to vanilla BS, but giving them a role bonus that added tracking and decreased the signature size of their brand of battleship guns in order to make their large guns perform more like a midway point between cruiser and BS turrets in terms of damage and application. My initial thought was that this would only be good on a PvP BS (where it would make the weapons more versatile at the cost of DPS), and that ratters wouldn't find it useful since the result would be that the cleartime on trash NPCs would drop, but cleartime for battleship NPCs would go up, largely negating their practicality. Maybe I'm wrong? What do you think?
Regardless, do finish a writeup. I'll be curious to see what you come up with.
Cade Windstalker wrote: I think that a tanky ship with good damage application would fit the current definition of "Marauder" perfectly. Large tank and cargo-bay for sustained combat. Good damage application for dealing with small annoying threats as well as support ships (which tend to sit away from the battle and/or be hard to apply damage to).
The mobility is not strictly necessary for something to be a "Marauder" and the actual literal definition of "maraud" is simply "To roam in search of things to steal or people to attack." This was probably selected as the name for a set of mission ships as a joke on the money-focused nature of many High Sec mission runners and because it sounded cool.
I've spent most of my EVE career doing insurgency stuff in hostile space, and to me a battleship with good damage application and ****-poor mobility sounds totally useless. I've used ships like pulse Apocs (old and new, normal and Navy varieties) to pretty good effect before because they give you a combination of stand-off range, excellent tracking, decent DPS, and pretty OK mobility (for a battleship). If they were bigger and fatter I would not use them at all, regardless of how well they applied damage or tanked. In small-gang PvP mobility is incredibly important and tanking ability is relatively irrelevant-- the vast majority of my ships are very light on tank simply because in most cases it's not how much you can tank that determines whether you live or die, but whether or not you can manage ranges and avoid being tackled. In the case of closerange ships, this means having good speed and agility; in the case of long-range ships like a pulse Apoc, speed is much less important but having a low align time is still very much important.
For PvP scenarios that don't require mobility, the existing pirate, navy, and T1 BS seem to do the job just fine. The new Hyperion in particular is an absolute monster for things like crashing (crushing?) gatecamps. The Hyp has active tanking on lockdown, while things like Abaddons can fit pretty monstrous brick-tanks. |
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:19:00 -
[2831] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:i cant understand this removeing web bonus was a good thing imho cause you realy dont need it on those ships... you dont need it in pve esp with the mjd
and you certrainly do not need it in fleets i guess nobody would fly one of theese solo anyway...
plz remove it and give them something they realy can make use of like warpcore str!
webs are good @ incursions, they help aloooot
all marauder's need is dps buff to justify their training and cost, and maybe MJD that can be used even when scrammed
BANG and you'd have null full of fun pvp again and small bs gangs.
|

Deliram
BuBBleZ UP Northern Associates.
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:21:00 -
[2832] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:I'll just throw this in here :
~148 days max (no implant) - to fully skill (L5) the marauder hull, sans gunnery/support skills. ~80 days max (no implant) - to fully skill (L5) a typical pirate BS hull, sans gunnery/support skills.
The marauder skill is a rank 10, the last level will take approx 30+days to finish with max implants. It becomes almost like a holy grail at L5 ... long train, little reason.
Please keep the above in mind when doing the marauder iteration. This. With marauder skill at level 5 then you can fly all maraduers. If you train a pirate BS at lvl 5 you get all the T1 BS of 2 race to use too. |

Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp
173
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:22:00 -
[2833] - Quote
Well, I liked the first iteration better than the second.
I would say keep some of the t2 resists, but include some of the omni resists from the bastion module. The web bonus seems counter-intuitive considering the MJD bonus. The marauders must keep their standard rep bonuses to stay above battleship level.
I too believe the marauders should be a little more differentiated in terms of race (both t2 resist layout and weapon systems).
Now as for role:
Quote:Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology.
Well, it's not now but perhaps it will be in the future.
Quote:While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming.
Support suppression.... maybe with the first design plan...
Sensor strength will and should be improved.
Quote:Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines.
Behind enemy lines... no... no ship is capable of doing that considering you will be outnumbered. There is a way to make it work though.
Add a bonus to marauders in bastion mode:
Target spectrum breakers don't effect host ship when bastion module is active. With that a marauder can have a massive tank without getting alphaed.
But really the only thing that will get marauders on the battlefield more often would be a buff to insurance payouts for said ships. |

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:25:00 -
[2834] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Crimminy still with the "waah waah Marauders will suck at level 4's with Bastion and MJD".
Here's the thing: MJD + Bastion might not suit your style of doing level 4's as you do them now (slowly motor to out gate while blam-blam) and you may need to adjust your play style to utilise them propelry...but how is that 'ruining' the ship class for its supposed 'intended role'?
The idea with designing a ship class should be to give it capabilities and let it loose and see where it ends up. People thought the Tengu was so-so for level 4's, and then they discovered the 100MN fits, and the price of CNR's dipped because you could get equal performance and way too much tank from a Tengu. This shows that what you may think a ship is intended for gets warped and twisted around by the players who find novel and unique ways to use them.
I thought the MJD was a fairly pointless module. Suddenly, there's people mumbling the 3 minute cooldown timer hurts them because they have to jump away from Level 4 mission rats twice which takes them 6 minutes to get back to gate.
Oh, hey, you can do it in 1/3rd the time with a Marauder with the Bastion mode! zomg!
The problem with the line of thinking that marauders are intended for PVE in level 4s (or as now, warped by Incursion bear whining) is that this leads to revisions and rebalances that further force the ship into what "the community' sees as an intended role.
Sure, this may be true of HICs and Dictors and Logi of all kinds, as these are very specialised ships. However, all other T2 combat ships have ship bonuses which give them special abilities and people automagically come up with interesting uses. Sentry ishtar ratting? Check. Blops running 8/10's? Check. Stealth bombers doing level 4 FW missions? Check. Soloing level 4's in Retributions? Check. Oh. My. God. CCP better buff these ships so they are more effective at their intended role of missioning!
Sarcasm in case you missed it.
The iteration 1 marauder changes gave us a niche PVP ship which would solo small POSs (yeah baby), Dickstars (hahaha), totally ruin the lamest "PVP" in EVE (being docking games), allow donut punching of lowsec gate camps (huehuehue). The problem? You can't run incursions. But you CAN destroy Level 4's. Well, shucks.
iteration 2 is a compromise which barely reduces the Marauder's use in PVE, assuming you can figure out MJD missioning style and aren't prone to ridiculously overtanking your ships for missions because you want your AFK Rattler back. It really only increases their use back to slightly worse than pirate BS for incursions. not that anyone uses them in incursions now, nor will they afterwards.
What it does do is destroys its use in PVP in any conceivable fashion. Docking games are back on because if you are going to undock a marauder, you may as well undock a Vindicator. Yay, thumbs up!
Lowsec gate camps won't have to worry about these things permatanking them while their gangmates destroy the pirates. Your sniper mode Marauder is gone, the 80% web being about as useful as bulls with DD boobs.
Whereas before i was looking forward to dropping one into harms way, assured that if I calculated right I'd have a good 10-15 minutes of fun and get a few kills baiting people, now its just a more expensive and less useful navy Faction BS equivalent with a "kill me now" module and no utility.
Be brave, CCP Ytterbium. Maybe fiddle the Bastion resist bonus to being a free DCU, or 5% across the board non-penalised. Keep the active rep bonus so you can actually tank outside Bastion mode (while, eg, hoofing it to gate), and tank in the 2-3K range while in it. You will then have a small gang or even solo boat able to punch hard, tank stronk and be a PITA.
Structure the other bonuses to actually work together to make a formidable long range platform which can protect itself from numpty ceptor pilots, idiots who blow their sig and can't tank 1000-1200 DPS and can't rid themselves of tackle. Leave the web bonus out, it will then be the achilles heel and force marauder pilots to work hard on their fits to counter the inevitable hero tackle Incursus of doom.
Iteration 1 Marauders, piloted by smart people with good gangs who pick their fights were going to be a handful. Well, guess what, an 850 DPS 280K EHP rail Proteus is a handful right now and you don't have any "kill me now" module on T3's like you do with iteration 2.
pretty much this tbh. Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
457
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:25:00 -
[2835] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Onictus wrote:
I also think they dicked the dog pretty well with the HACs in general.
I can't see where they are going, other than a ship that PvPs worse than the ENTIRE T1 line up, and PvEs worse that most of the T1s and 3/4 of the pirate ships with the fourth being debatable......all of which are comparable in price.
My cerb v your caracal, let's do this
Pass.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:41:00 -
[2836] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Was it you who linked that site originally? That site owns. I totally agree-- a Kalaakiota Rokh would own, and swapping the current Ishukone colorscheme for the Mordu's one across the board for Caldari would be awesome (I always loved the urban-camo look of the pre-V3 Ishukone ships).
Yup, I can't take credit for the site though, just linking to it rather excessively =P (to the point that typing Rokh into my browser bar comes up with six different links to that site).
I'm actually rather fond of the current Ishukone paint job. I REALLY want a Mordu's line of ships using Hybrids though. It annoys me no end that I can fly every other Hybrids bonused ship in the game EXCEPT the Serpentis ones and for those I have to train Minmattar while I have zero projectile skills... -_-
Ganthrithor wrote:If they left the Bastion module as a damage application amplifier on the PvE BS, I wouldn't mind. As I said a while back, PvE is not my area of expertise (I've done a fair bit, but mostly in Tengus, which pretty much break all the rules of EVE and tank absurdly well while destroying everything in their path), and I'm way more open to various proposals for PvE features for a PvE-focused BS. Speaking of which...
Ganthrithor wrote:Your post actually got me thinking about an idea I had for "my Marauders" as a possible role bonus-- leaving them with reduced max dps numbers compared to vanilla BS, but giving them a role bonus that added tracking and decreased the signature size of their brand of battleship guns in order to make their large guns perform more like a midway point between cruiser and BS turrets in terms of damage and application. My initial thought was that this would only be good on a PvP BS (where it would make the weapons more versatile at the cost of DPS), and that ratters wouldn't find it useful since the result would be that the cleartime on trash NPCs would drop, but cleartime for battleship NPCs would go up, largely negating their practicality. Maybe I'm wrong? What do you think?
Regardless, do finish a writeup. I'll be curious to see what you come up with.
This is more or less my thinking, have Bastion provide nothing to tank but extend the range of the guns and maybe even lower sig-res like you're suggesting, though in practical terms it ends up working just like a non-stacking penalized tracking bonus except it's not multiplied by other tracking computers/enhancers... which may actually be a good thing >.> I will have to take a look at the numbers on this one.
Something for the weekend I think! :)
Regarding clear times, I would say I spend about half my time in most missions clearing frigates and cruisers despite the overall lower HP values because you have to let low DPS drones deal with them most of the time unless you can land solid hits on them either by engaging at range or webbing them down to nothing.
In Vanguard class incursions the vast majority of targets are frigate and cruiser sized with only one of the three sites containing a Battleship and the largest rat after that being a Battlecruiser that MWDs in and then orbits around just outside 20km (bonused Fed-Navy webs reach to just under 19km). The two most effective fleet doctrines for these 10-11 man sites revolve around either Vindicator webs or using Machariels to alpha-strike things in 2 out of the three sites when they spawn out at 60km and are MWDing in (they avoid the third site where things spawn in close).
For larger sites there is a very large focus on damage projection with a large number of people serving a "sniper" role, which requires damage to be applied out between 120 and 150km from the mass of the fleet. The better your damage projection at these ranges the higher damage ammo that can be used and the faster the site completes. Shorter range ships aren't used as much in these sites.
Ganthrithor wrote:I've spent most of my EVE career doing insurgency stuff in hostile space, and to me a battleship with good damage application and ****-poor mobility sounds totally useless. I've used ships like pulse Apocs (old and new, normal and Navy varieties) to pretty good effect before because they give you a combination of stand-off range, excellent tracking, decent DPS, and pretty OK mobility (for a battleship). If they were bigger and fatter I would not use them at all, regardless of how well they applied damage or tanked. In small-gang PvP mobility is incredibly important and tanking ability is relatively irrelevant-- the vast majority of my ships are very light on tank simply because in most cases it's not how much you can tank that determines whether you live or die, but whether or not you can manage ranges and avoid being tackled. In the case of closerange ships, this means having good speed and agility; in the case of long-range ships like a pulse Apoc, speed is much less important but having a low align time is still very much important.
For PvP scenarios that don't require mobility, the existing pirate, navy, and T1 BS seem to do the job just fine. The new Hyperion in particular is an absolute monster for things like crashing (crushing?) gatecamps. The Hyp has active tanking on lockdown, while things like Abaddons can fit pretty monstrous brick-tanks.
I'm definitely more of a "where's my logi support?" sort of PvP player, otherwise I go for low-sec roams in fairly cheap ships. I definitely understand the sort of situation you're talking about but I don't think the Marauders are going to fit that style of play and still be viable for PvE where "mobility" is reaching the next gate before clearing the pocket.
It sounds like what you really want is some variant on the current Black-Ops battleships that aren't only usable when dropping on someone while having a massive numbers advantage. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:43:00 -
[2837] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:i cant understand this removeing web bonus was a good thing imho cause you realy dont need it on those ships... you dont need it in pve esp with the mjd
and you certrainly do not need it in fleets i guess nobody would fly one of theese solo anyway...
plz remove it and give them something they realy can make use of like warpcore str! webs are good @ incursions, they help aloooot all marauder's need is dps buff to justify their training and cost, and maybe MJD that can be used even when scrammed BANG and you'd have null full of fun pvp again and small bs gangs.
1.) in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)
2.) you are horribly wrong MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.
so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:
it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost. you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.
so lets look at the gain you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null) it helps with the ability to run lvl5 it even may be of use in incursions the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.) |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:48:00 -
[2838] - Quote
Chimpface Holocaust wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top.
They also are receiving full Tech2 resists. Am I the only one that noticed this? Sad that it took 2793 posts (140 pages) for someone to notice. My guess is the error got lost in translation.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Update here. Giving a new deployed mode is not enough however, as some modifications need to be made on the hulls themselves. First, we wanted to encourage Marauders to use Micro Jump Drives to move around, and as such have reduced mobility next to their Tech1 counterparts (bit higher mass and lower max velocity). We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top. However, we realize Marauder hulls have a certain number of issues; as such we are significantly increasing their fittings so that they can fit Large Micro Jump Drives plus Heavy Capacitor Boosters with more ease (the Vargur especially needed more fitting options). We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode. We also are increasing their maximum targeting range and scan resolution a bit to make use of the increased damage projection, while decreasing their signature radius. They also are receiving full Tech2 resists. Normally, I would chalk this up to poor editing/oversight. The proximity of both statements "full Tech2 resists" in the original document to each other makes me think something else is afoot.
Did someone cross-post this in the industry forum by mistake? So much crying going on here. CCP, you guys need to buck-up and resist caving. Sensible changes will keep (and maybe even increase) the player-base. Think about Eve like your little baby... spoiling them makes your future fraught with frustration. Raise your baby how you want. Start saying no. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
496
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:49:00 -
[2839] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:1.) in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis) I just wanted to note that "dedicated webbers" like Lokis and Bhaals don't have much DPS to contribute. In reality it's Vindicators who are dedicated webbers in many cases. Oh and they provide more DPS than marauders anyways. Although I'm not sure whether it holds with command links nerfs that reduced the range of Vindi webs quite significantly. |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:59:00 -
[2840] - Quote
The four utility high slots are too much. Three to four neutralizers for station games, four slot spider tank... Those alone with the t2 resists are worth the isk and sp requirements.
If bastion is introduced the resist bonus should go there. Otherwise dump the ewar immunity for something more geared towards the marauder roles of t2 resist. Or, get rid of the MJD bonus and make them slow bricks.
T2 = specialized Now, marauder is "specialized for seven intense roles" I.e. Generalized: GÇó brick t2 resist GÇó good damage GÇó MJD blink GÇó EWAR immunity GÇó 4 utility highs GÇó salvaging on go GÇó target painting (golem)
Pick 2-3 and work on it. EWAR immunity and t2 resist Good damage, MJD blink Good damage and t2 resist
Those are enough to build three different t2 battleships. Do not throw it all in one generalized mess basket.
|
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1388
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:05:00 -
[2841] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Malcanis wrote:Onictus wrote:
I also think they dicked the dog pretty well with the HACs in general.
I can't see where they are going, other than a ship that PvPs worse than the ENTIRE T1 line up, and PvEs worse that most of the T1s and 3/4 of the pirate ships with the fourth being debatable......all of which are comparable in price.
My cerb v your caracal, let's do this provide real numbers and reasons how and why is your cerb so good and why would you win... and if you lose to caracal that has buddy warping in @ you then how much you lose. vs. going to pick up another caracal if it's new to you also then real eve pvp is not alliance tournament. and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.
You are quite clearly awful at pvp and shouldn't comment on it. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:08:00 -
[2842] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:You are quite clearly awful at pvp and shouldn't comment on it.
you just contribute so much that it's just unbearable...
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
496
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:10:00 -
[2843] - Quote
The Spod wrote:The four utility high slots are too much. Three to four neutralizers for station games, four slot spider tank... Those alone with the t2 resists are worth the isk and sp requirements. I kind of feel that their sensor strength still presents a problem for RR gang (if you actually field a marauder gang) as even brand new folks in BBs and probably even Griffins can pose a threat to chains... And probably anything they do. YMMV on how your opponent's ability to field zerg support fleet can affect your actual gameplay. For one, those will have to stay at range (probably even much further than web range), where they may be vulnerable to bastion'd fleet member. Although the latter will become rather vulnerable in RR gang and ECM locusts may be easy to replace, depending on environement... |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:10:00 -
[2844] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:1.) in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)
2.) you are horribly wrong MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.
so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:
it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost. you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.
so lets look at the gain you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null) it helps with the ability to run lvl5 it even may be of use in incursions the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.)
NO!
1. it's vindis 2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's.
+2 str is just too OP.
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
112
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:23:00 -
[2845] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: I'm actually rather fond of the current Ishukone paint job.
I'd love a Rokh in this colour scheme. A nickel-brass Rokh would be awesome.
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
228
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:24:00 -
[2846] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote: and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.
Dis Mega is sooou gunna get its butt handed 7o Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:43:00 -
[2847] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: I'm actually rather fond of the current Ishukone paint job.
I'd love a Rokh in this colour scheme. A nickel-brass Rokh would be awesome.
I'm not quite as much a fan of the Ishukone Rokh as I am some of the others. Though the Kaalakiota Rokh is so much want it's not funny. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:46:00 -
[2848] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote: and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.
Dis Mega is sooou gunna get its butt handed 7o
in AT scenario yes.. in eve real PVP - the fight problably wont happen. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 09:55:00 -
[2849] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote: and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.
Dis Mega is sooou gunna get its butt handed 7o in AT scenario yes.. in eve real PVP - the fight problably wont happen.
Eve is a big place, the only things that will never happen are those out-right prevented by game mechanics. |

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:01:00 -
[2850] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:I have a really good idea: instead of going forward with the proposal in the OP, reboot the entire T2 battleship lineup.
First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.
Then, having actually created a specialized T2 BS hull for PvE, take the Marauder class title, take re-skins of the formerly-tier 3 battleships, and make a class that's actually useful for PvP in hostile space. Make these ships similar to what blackops battleships are currently, but without the jump portal generators and with an obvious combat focus instead of the hodgepodge of attributes that current blops bs have:
*snip* CCP, if you want the T2 battleships to really be awesome then this is what you need to do! Don't be fooled by just a single ship split to pvp and pve roles but make it right and look at the whole picture of T2 battleships.
I mean i can't believe this but i'm agreeing with a goon too!  |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
488
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:05:00 -
[2851] - Quote
The Spod wrote:The four utility high slots are too much. Three to four neutralizers for station games, four slot spider tank... Those alone with the t2 resists are worth the isk and sp requirements.
If bastion is introduced the resist bonus should go there. Otherwise dump the ewar immunity for something more geared towards the marauder roles of t2 resist. Or, get rid of the MJD bonus and make them slow bricks.
T2 = specialized Now, marauder is "specialized for seven intense roles" I.e. Generalized: GÇó brick t2 resist GÇó good damage GÇó MJD blink GÇó EWAR immunity GÇó 4 utility highs GÇó salvaging on go GÇó target painting (golem)
Pick 2-3 and work on it. EWAR immunity and t2 resist Good damage, MJD blink Good damage and t2 resist
Those are enough to build three different t2 battleships. Do not throw it all in one generalized mess basket.
That is called specialization in genretics.... its the new market trend :P |

Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:08:00 -
[2852] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:
Add a bonus to marauders in bastion mode:
Target spectrum breakers don't effect host ship when bastion module is active. With that a marauder can have a massive tank without getting alphaed.
But really the only thing that will get marauders on the battlefield more often would be a buff to insurance payouts for said ships.
Excellent idea. It could be a bit OP though in a gatecamp scenario with several other Marauders. Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/ |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
488
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:08:00 -
[2853] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP.....
NUmber crunshing is not same as in game. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
248
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:17:00 -
[2854] - Quote
5th turret/launcher (as fittings to go with) Tech1 BS sensor strenght T2 resist
dont touch anything else.
marauders are fixed and useful.
why the **** CCP have to complicate things when is so simple? |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:24:00 -
[2855] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:1.) in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)
2.) you are horribly wrong MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.
so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:
it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost. you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.
so lets look at the gain you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null) it helps with the ability to run lvl5 it even may be of use in incursions the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.) NO! 1. it's vindis 2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's. +2 str is just too OP. lokis.. oh my god, cant get over it.
where did i say that only lokis were used? in vanguards they are common....
and you realize general mjd scram imunity is way more op than +2 str? it would mean that if you dont get killed before you align you ALWAYS get away! how is that less op than simply +2 str |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1388
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:37:00 -
[2856] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:1.) in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)
2.) you are horribly wrong MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.
so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:
it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost. you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.
so lets look at the gain you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null) it helps with the ability to run lvl5 it even may be of use in incursions the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.) NO! 1. it's vindis 2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's. +2 str is just too OP. lokis.. oh my god, cant get over it. where did i say that only lokis were used? in vanguards they are common.... and you realize general mjd scram imunity is way more op than +2 str? it would mean that if you dont get killed before you align you ALWAYS get away! how is that less op than simply +2 str
Mjd's aren't immune to scrams, they are immune to long points (Sorry if i'm missing something from an earlier arguement)
Also anyone who thinks these won't be used in pvp because the blobby nature in eve will make them impractical from soloing is awful.
A battleship with t2 resistances that gets a bonus to MJD's will become the go to fleet ship of any alliance with any amount of isk between their hands. Should rather try to expand on the MJD thing somehow rather than giving them t2 resists.. its just unimaginative and bad.
Give them the ability to use target spectrum breakers without harsh penalties or something. Just.. anything other than this. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:54:00 -
[2857] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: Mjd's aren't immune to scrams, they are immune to long points (Sorry if i'm missing something from an earlier arguement)
Also anyone who thinks these won't be used in pvp because the blobby nature in eve will make them impractical from soloing is awful.
A battleship with t2 resistances that gets a bonus to MJD's will become the go to fleet ship of any alliance with any amount of isk between their hands. Should rather try to expand on the MJD thing somehow rather than giving them t2 resists.. its just unimaginative and bad.
Give them the ability to use target spectrum breakers without harsh penalties or something. Just.. anything other than this.
yep you are missing something but you seem to habve a somekind simmilar view on the matter.
to make things clear:
i proposed to give the ship +2 str for stated reasons which is i my eyes more desireble than the web bonus but that is just my point of view...
while he said this was just dumb cause with his proposed fix of makeing mjds on marauders immune to scrams would be way better while my +2str proposal would be op  which is opposite around cause it would basically make the ship uncatchable
about the fleet thingy my point of view is the ships would suffer more in general with the webs than they would gain reasoning here is rather complex but i try it in a short version. haveing web bonus would end up either: weakening the fit cause youll have 1-2 mids with webs but in most cases would not end up in a large gain (in fleets youll have already ships that do the job) while haveing no webs and a stronger fit would end up in a useless bonus.
|

Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 10:59:00 -
[2858] - Quote
I'm really concerned about adding more arbitrary timers into the game.
Bastion mode has a fixed at 60 seconds. Why 60? Not 58, or 144?
Furthermore, it is not affected by ship type (race), stats, fitting, pilot skillpoints and RL skills. Who needs those fitting options like nanos and inertstabs? Doesnt matter if you watch local for neuts, because it only depends on luck - either you're near the end of your siege or in the beginning.
Also, CCP - nerf the sentry drone carriers. Because they are way superior to anything you're suggesting. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
488
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 11:09:00 -
[2859] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship. E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765 PvP/Direct Combat focused -> Pirate Battleships Defensive/PvE focused -> Marauders Speed/Stealth -> Black-Ops Battleships It makes very little sense to throw a PvP focused ship into a PvE focused ship-line. Even less to make a T2 ship that's flat better than Pirate Faction.
A good PVP ship will be a good PVE ship as long as its role on PVP is brute force oriented. So there is nothign wrong...
In fact what is wrong is the ABSURD idea of focusing an ICONIC spot as of the T2 battleship for a PVE ONLY ship.
In fact Pirate battleships are more PVE capable than the marauders! So there is not evne need for Marauders to keep a PVE orientation. They should be made into Strong T2 Combat ships, oriented to some sort of vbrute force ( as in the bastion model supports) so that they can be used on PVE AND PVP. |

Aeronite
Failstar Reloaded
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 11:14:00 -
[2860] - Quote
Web bonus for golem is a joke since the ship will never get in range to web anything kinda like the curent paladin.Give it another bonus any bonus just not web |
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 11:30:00 -
[2861] - Quote
Aeronite wrote:Web bonus for golem is a joke since the ship will never get in range to web anything kinda like the curent paladin.Give it another bonus any bonus just not web
+1
but even for the others its a often useless bonus esp if its velocity not range |

Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:01:00 -
[2862] - Quote
While I like the idea, somehow having something that can fix itself in space doesn't seem very Maraudery.
When one marauds, one is roaming in search of plunder or prey. That is the aspect that should be looked at.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
150
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:06:00 -
[2863] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote: 2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's.
+2 str is just too OP.
Actually I believe Scrams shut off your MWD or MJD whether you can warp or not.
To mare wrote:5th turret/launcher (as fittings to go with) Tech1 BS sensor strenght T2 resist
dont touch anything else.
marauders are fixed and useful.
why the **** CCP have to complicate things when is so simple?
Because this would mean that the Kronos out-DPSes the Vindicator as well as out-tanking them.
This is power-creep of the worst sort.
Skia Aumer wrote:I'm really concerned about adding more arbitrary timers into the game.
Bastion mode is fixed at 60 seconds. Why 60? Not 58, or 144?
Furthermore, it is not affected by ship type (race), stats, fitting, pilot skillpoints and RL skills. Who needs those fitting options like nanos and inertstabs? Doesnt matter if you watch local for neuts, because it only depends on luck - either you're near the end of your siege or in the beginning.
Also, CCP - nerf the sentry drone carriers. Because they are way superior to anything you're suggesting.
Actually I tested earlier and it's ~30 seconds to warp 3AU to a star without factoring in align time. Unless someone already knows your exact location and is within ~30AU of you then it's highly unlikely that you could be caught in Bastion.
Even if they pop into local the moment you start a cycle you're looking at ~5 seconds to align, anywhere between 5 and ~30 seconds to probe you down, and another 30+ seconds warping to you. Even with a 12 second align time you have plenty of time to GTFO back to a station, POS, or bail to a safe spot until you can safe-logout.
Kagura Nikon wrote: A good PVP ship will be a good PVE ship as long as its role on PVP is brute force oriented. So there is nothign wrong...
In fact what is wrong is the ABSURD idea of focusing an ICONIC spot as of the T2 battleship for a PVE ONLY ship.
In fact Pirate battleships are more PVE capable than the marauders! So there is not evne need for Marauders to keep a PVE orientation. They should be made into Strong T2 Combat ships, oriented to some sort of vbrute force ( as in the bastion model supports) so that they can be used on PVE AND PVP.
Hence why I listed Marauders a "Defense/PvE". They can be tanky without dealing as much damage as Pirate Battleships and still have uses, especially when supported by logistics.
What they should not be is flat better than the Pirate Battleships or gain PvP ability at the expense of their PvE viability. Not everything that makes a good PvP ship makes for a good PvE ship.
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:While I like the idea, somehow having something that can fix itself in space doesn't seem very Maraudery.
When one marauds, one is roaming in search of plunder or prey. That is the aspect that should be looked at.
This is a fallacy. Any ship in the game can "maraud" under the proper definition. Balancing because of how something is named is silly. Names can be easily changed, balancing based on the definition of a word makes for a poor game (unless it's Scribblenauts but this isn't that) and can be very hard to fix later. |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:16:00 -
[2864] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP..... NUmber crunshing is not same as in game.
you forgot waiting to 10% shields then BOOM!!! 100% shields |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
228
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:20:00 -
[2865] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP..... NUmber crunshing is not same as in game. you forgot waiting to 10% shields then BOOM!!! 100% shields
While it's okay for ASBs with their fast reaction time, imagine the problematics for armor reps, boosting 5k/AAR cycle, many seconds delayed. Try to time that well! Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

HolidayDerp derf
Federation DC
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:30:00 -
[2866] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP..... NUmber crunshing is not same as in game. you forgot waiting to 10% shields then BOOM!!! 100% shields While it's okay for ASBs with their fast reaction time, imagine the problematics for armor reps, boosting 5k/AAR cycle, many seconds delayed. Try to time that well!
im really biased with the hatred of asb because from the begining it appeared as a broken mechanic, so much hp for no cap and no down side.I do not know enough about AAR to hate it yet but i suport it more because at least ccp tried to even armor out a little with shields.
i feel they should restrict the bonus to regular shield boosters/armor repairs |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:30:00 -
[2867] - Quote
Faceroll marauders with target breaker could be ridiculously overpowered in fleet engagements.
With t2 resists 400k ehp could be standard while breaking all lock queues and target priorities on the fleet constantly. The damage application and target spectrum harass with the buffer looks untouchable to any other doctrine than sentry fleets as far as subcaps go. This all while being EWAR immune.
When enemy fleet is roflstomped and diminished, just unsiege and rep up with your RR chain. Alternately use dual ancillary tank to keep your buffer topped; with the target breaking, ehp and damage projection you'll stomp subcap fleets 10 to 1 kill ratio so who needs logistics.
To make matters worse you can do this while MJD kiting and sniping with superior projection. The only counter seems to be dronefleets and caps. Oh right, you bring caps only when you have subcap dominance :) POWER CREEP. |

Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company Rebel Alliance of New Eden
63
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:32:00 -
[2868] - Quote
as above. web bonus for the Golem is wasted. shield bonus is much better. Don't destroy its lovely shield bonus. 
How about a 25% bonus to web range per level instead. |

Tarmaniel
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:37:00 -
[2869] - Quote
The Spod wrote:Faceroll marauders with target breaker could be ridiculously overpowered in fleet engagements.
With t2 resists 400k ehp could be standard while breaking all lock queues and target priorities on the fleet constantly. The damage application and target spectrum harass with the buffer looks untouchable to any other doctrine than sentry fleets as far as subcaps go. This all while being EWAR immune.
When enemy fleet is roflstomped and diminished, just unsiege and rep up with your RR chain. Alternately use dual ancillary tank to keep your buffer topped; with the target breaking, ehp and damage projection you'll stomp subcap fleets 10 to 1 kill ratio so who needs logistics.
To make matters worse you can do this while MJD kiting and sniping with superior projection. The only counter seems to be dronefleets and caps. Oh right, you bring caps only when you have subcap dominance :) POWER CREEP.
You're never going to see large-scale fleet engagements with Marauders no matter what changes they make. You're never going to find even 200 pilots who both all have the same racial marauder type and guns trained in addition to all being logged in at the same time. Even if you did find that many pilots and got a 10-to-1 kill ratio, the 10 guys on your side that did get killed are now out of it for at least a week while they farm up another marauder. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
304
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:39:00 -
[2870] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:While I like the idea, somehow having something that can fix itself in space doesn't seem very Maraudery.
When one marauds, one is roaming in search of plunder or prey. That is the aspect that should be looked at.
I get the feeling Marauders was just a fancy name slapped on a line of ships :S and their actual function has little to do with Marauding otherwise you'd get something like this (ish):
Innate bonus to over-heating of some sort, possibly with some tweaks to make it (more) relevant to PVE.
Defensive sub-systems:
-Big active tank, sig reduction bonuses -Medium active tank bonus, cargo/salvaging, etc. inustry related bonuses -Small buffer bonus and full T2 resists
Electronics:
-Higher sensor strength and other sensor bonuses, lower ewar bonus or maybe ewar replaced with tracking/optimal/falloff bonus -Something in between -Higher ewar bonus, lower sensor strength (Some mix of PVE i.e. tractor beam bonuses in there somewhere)
Engineering:
Normal kind of fitting/capacitor compromises and one that supplements the overheating bonus
Offensive:
Some configuration options on drone capabilities and turret/missile damage output
Propulsion sub-systems:
-MJD bonus sub-system -AB bonus - probably fairly large bonus to speed (upto ~75% of normal MWD speed on these ships) -Jump drive - quite limited but used to "get behind enemy lines" and to get out of trouble but very limited range - literally only able to jump 1-2 systems over (might be a bit tricky to balance with the varied range between systems) its not designed for deep insertion or hot dropping like black ops.
IMO something along those lines is needed to make a true marauder but I'm increasingly getting the impression the name as used ingame is misleading and not what what we are actually talking about. |
|

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:41:00 -
[2871] - Quote
Tarmaniel wrote: You're never going to see large-scale fleet engagements with Marauders no matter what changes they make. You're never going to find even 200 pilots who both all have the same racial marauder type and guns trained in addition to all being logged in at the same time. Even if you did find that many pilots and got a 10-to-1 kill ratio, the 10 guys on your side that did get killed are now out of it for at least a week while they farm up another marauder.
That sounds vaguely familiar with what was said about Titans when they were introduced and how they would be so expensive that even the largest alliances would only have a couple, but now look where we are. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:47:00 -
[2872] - Quote
Siddicus wrote:That sounds vaguely familiar with what was said about Titans when they were introduced and how they would be so expensive that even the largest alliances would only have a couple, but now look where we are.
To be fair, the largest alliances are really large... 
And I dare say that if titans hadn't been so immensely oberpowered when they were first introduced there wouldn't be as many around, no? There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:03:00 -
[2873] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP..... NUmber crunshing is not same as in game. you forgot waiting to 10% shields then BOOM!!! 100% shields
XLASB + PithX SBA + Crystals + Strong Blue Pill + 100% Bastion Bonus = 5676hp per cycle = 60.5% of 9375 shields (assuming booster no side effect) + really pissed of opponent = 51084hp in XLASB (9 Navy 400 Charges)
Now just hope the devs don't read this and decide to get the nerf bat out again.
Now bring that 7.5% Shield Rep Bonus (so +30% shield rep @ lvl4) back because I can't afford all that expensive stuff (and don't want a giant target on my head), and won't be risking the Drug Side effects (so -30% shield rep). |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1733
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:23:00 -
[2874] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Heh. CCP gives, CCP takes. 
Quote:they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity.
So what's the use of the bastion module now? Just a few more range and EW inmunity? Thank you for nothing from a mission runner and Golem pilot... The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:28:00 -
[2875] - Quote
Bastion 100% Rep Bonus... |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:28:00 -
[2876] - Quote
Why this marauder idea is bad:
GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use) GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet
What could be done about it:
Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS. Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps. Cut the ewar immunity crap. Keep the damage projection bonus in hull stats to make them decent for pve. Cut the MJD crap. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:34:00 -
[2877] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Bastion 100% Rep Bonus...
+1 for paying attention. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:35:00 -
[2878] - Quote
HolidayDerp derf wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:HolidayDerp derf wrote:Game Breaking ASB = 2k hp/cycle add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle
You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP..... NUmber crunshing is not same as in game. you forgot waiting to 10% shields then BOOM!!! 100% shields
That can very easily go wrong.. as in 10% shield then BOOM you are dead because a single alpha strike kileld you sicne you were forced to brign your effective HP very low in oder to make you of max power of your repair.
|

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
304
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:41:00 -
[2879] - Quote
The Spod wrote:Why this marauder idea is bad:
GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use) GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet
What could be done about it:
Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS. Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps. Cut the ewar immunity crap. Keep the damage projection bonus in hull stats to make them decent for pve. Cut the MJD crap.
They'd still die ridiculously fast against dreads tho - from the logfile of taking down a POCO recently:
78142 - Penetrates 121413 - Smashes 70811 - Penetrates 97167 - Smashes 102970 - Smashes 73963 - Penetrates
And thats a fairly typical of any section of the log - even factoring in resists very little sub-capital thats sitting dead still will survive against that let alone against 2 or more dreads and that wasn't even a gank fit moros.
|

Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:42:00 -
[2880] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
That can very easily go wrong.. as in 10% shield then BOOM you are dead because a single alpha strike kileld you sicne you were forced to brign your effective HP very low in oder to make you of max power of your repair.
This why armor reps need new mechanic. For example constant heal when armor rep ON. Not a lack of up at the end of cycle. Just constantly repair. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:42:00 -
[2881] - Quote
Yeah, I have to imagine that the ASB module contributed to the second revision of the bastion module and the removal of the rep boost hull bonus. Those things are so far out of line that they severely complicate ship balancing efforts. Simply implementing a one-per-ship for ASB as they have for AAR would go a long way towards simplifying things.
Edit: I was going to add exactly what Captain suggested above me ^^^^. Instead of a pulse, it should simply stream armor points back into the tank. Would make armor and shield similarly effective but still quite different in operation. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1733
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:48:00 -
[2882] - Quote
So the bastion provides bonus. I mistook the hulls for the module.  The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:50:00 -
[2883] - Quote
Captain Semper wrote:This why armor reps need new mechanic. For example constant heal when armor rep ON. Not a chunk of hp at the end of cycle. Just constantly repair. 1 second server tics, thank you for paying attention. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

SkupojHren
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:51:00 -
[2884] - Quote
thanks for ruining marauders.again. |

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:54:00 -
[2885] - Quote
Rroff wrote:The Spod wrote:Why this marauder idea is bad:
GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use) GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet
What could be done about it:
Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS. Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps. Cut the ewar immunity crap. Keep the damage projection bonus in hull stats to make them decent for pve. Cut the MJD crap. They'd still die ridiculously fast against dreads tho - from the logfile of taking down a POCO recently: 78142 - Penetrates 121413 - Smashes 70811 - Penetrates 97167 - Smashes 102970 - Smashes 73963 - Penetrates And thats a fairly typical example of any section of the log - even factoring in resists very little sub-capital thats sitting dead still will survive against that let alone against 2 or more dreads and that wasn't even a gank fit moros.
This is a good thing. The difference in range, lock timeand numbers still vastly favor the marauder blob. It's not supposed to solo kill a capital, that would just be redundant power creep.
It's the subcapital anti-capital wing.
Dropping dreads on 200 marauders each pushing 2000-3000dps against capitals, each sporting target spectrum breaker to make the dread pilots hate their lock time... Not a good move. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:57:00 -
[2886] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Captain Semper wrote:This why armor reps need new mechanic. For example constant heal when armor rep ON. Not a chunk of hp at the end of cycle. Just constantly repair. 1 second server tics, thank you for paying attention.
Knowing that the server is limited in how it processes information doesn't negate the general idea. You could simply implement it as HP/sec instead of total boost amount at the end of a cycle. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:03:00 -
[2887] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Captain Semper wrote:This why armor reps need new mechanic. For example constant heal when armor rep ON. Not a chunk of hp at the end of cycle. Just constantly repair. 1 second server tics, thank you for paying attention. Knowing that the server is limited in how it processes information doesn't negate the general idea. You could simply implement it as HP/sec instead of total boost amount at the end of a cycle.
I am not convinced... Sounds nice, but somehow not convincing.  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:07:00 -
[2888] - Quote
That web bonus ... needs to be removed.
Overall, you need to think about what the bonus you are giving to the class is going to have on specific hulls. Webs on a Golem and Vargur, please no D: |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:12:00 -
[2889] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Captain Semper wrote:This why armor reps need new mechanic. For example constant heal when armor rep ON. Not a chunk of hp at the end of cycle. Just constantly repair. 1 second server tics, thank you for paying attention. Knowing that the server is limited in how it processes information doesn't negate the general idea. You could simply implement it as HP/sec instead of total boost amount at the end of a cycle. I am not convinced... Sounds nice, but somehow not convincing. 
I wrote a long winded post about the armor rep mechanics in the 1.1 module rebalancing thread but one of the main points is how the long cycle time + end of cycle rep is problematic because of the way it aligns with enemy weapon rate of fire. Basically, when you're talking about RoF between 5-9 seconds you wind up with shield boosters being able to rep twice between strikes, where as armor can take 2 strikes between reps. This means that occasionally you are taking 2X the enemy's damage in a spike which makes alpha doubly effective against armor tanks.
I think the reason why armor works well in large engagements is that it can be easily local buffered while the remote armor repair system works more like a shield boost with its cycle time being 4.5 seconds. Which means you can land multiple remote repairs between alpha strikes.
Edit: I might go ahead and drop a new topic in here about armor in general instead of distracting from this thread. I wonder how Marauders will wind up based on what we've seen so far. At this point it's anyone's guess. |

loles
The Oregon Mining Corporation Cookie Collective
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:27:00 -
[2890] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
I'm glad you are reading everything, it certainly takes some time (I'm personally not able to keep up with all the updates).
Just thought a justification for an idea someone else (can't remember who) wrote earlier in the thread (if marauders are going to be PvE oriented): Bastion module increases mass by XXXXX, generating it's own gravity field and pulling unanchored containers and wrecks from within 150km nearby. Then give marauders a salvager/salvage drone bonus and ta-da! Marauders save noctis flight, making other debatable stats be worth it as in the long run you complete+salvage missions quicker.
|
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:28:00 -
[2891] - Quote
The Spod wrote:Why this marauder idea is bad:
GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use) GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet
What could be done about it:
GÇó Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would -make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS. GÇó Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps. GÇó Cut the ewar immunity crap. GÇó Cut the MJD crap.
Now you have a specialized (t2) anti-capital subcap. Not a "lets do 7 different things and be best at each specialized". The price is high and vulnerability too to make them less powerful vs. subcaps because you can't blink around every minute or fit half million ehp buffer. Counter power creep of capitals.
PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY! |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
461
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:34:00 -
[2892] - Quote
Grombutz wrote:
PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!
These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large seige? Dread fairy says YES!
......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versitily Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh"
Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:36:00 -
[2893] - Quote
Grombutz wrote:The Spod wrote:Why this marauder idea is bad:
GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use) GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet
What could be done about it:
GÇó Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would -make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS. GÇó Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps. GÇó Cut the ewar immunity crap. GÇó Cut the MJD crap.
Now you have a specialized (t2) anti-capital subcap. Not a "lets do 7 different things and be best at each specialized". The price is high and vulnerability too to make them less powerful vs. subcaps because you can't blink around every minute or fit half million ehp buffer. Counter power creep of capitals. PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!
You can make it work for both, just need some adjustment. Keep the new hull resists. Change the web bonus into 10% SCRIPTED BASTION MODE BONUS.
Now also bastion modules can take a script.. Anti capital ( increased damage, reduced tracking), Super tanking ( 10% repair per level) etc etc.. new types depending on the need. Also keep Ewar immunity while in bastion mode.
Also would be nice is marauders in bastion mode get a SIGNATURE reduction of 30% (woudl help as in not beign locke very fast by enemy capitals that would laught at a subcapital STATIC in field)
|

Grombutz
lass mich in ruhe und nerf ned
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:38:00 -
[2894] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Grombutz wrote:
PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!
These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large sig? Dread fairy says YES! ......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versatile Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh" Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.
And that's why they need a rebalance. Marauders should not be outshined by Pirate-BS's in PvE, and as we see here, there is an effort to change this. ;) |

Metal Icarus
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
604
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:38:00 -
[2895] - Quote
w/e you do, giving them the same web bonus feels like homogenization. Making them similar in that fashion really takes away from their racial flavor. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:41:00 -
[2896] - Quote
Onictus wrote: Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.
If there was ever a reason to buy a marauder, this was not it. 
Honestly salvaging on the fly.
The only time I ver used that tractor beam range bonus was when I wanted to get that mission critical loot one minute earlier...
Doesn't happen that often, as I could just kill all, warp out and come back with my noctis. And once you go for blitzing all missions, you've got a MWD anyways, no? There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Stirlsha
Mostly Harmful Pirate Corp Black Core Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:50:00 -
[2897] - Quote
Can anyone help me understand why you would need bonuses to webifiers on a cruise missile Golem?
Am I missing something here? |

Dethmourne Silvermane
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:56:00 -
[2898] - Quote
I was excited about the first pass. I'm no longer excited.
Make up my mind - do you want damage projection, or webs? Drop bastion as a concept, drop TB range/speed, keep web bonus, give me MWD speed bonus so I can chase down cruisers and throw my webs on them.
Alternately, keep bastion, drop web bonus and give me something that helps with sniping (maybe a web range bonus, if you must go with a web bonus).
Identify the role you'd like the ship to fulfill and head that direction, quit trying to make it a hydra. This space intentionally left blank. |

Drizzitx
Rescue Team
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:07:00 -
[2899] - Quote
Well I was gunna waste a few months training the skills to fly a Golem decently, but now I think I will stick with my Over tanked Tengu and Noctis, does the job just as easily and I can afk tank in the Tengu. 1300 shields/3 seconds :D |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1390
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:11:00 -
[2900] - Quote
Drizzitx wrote:Well I was gunna waste a few months training the skills to fly a Golem decently, but now I think I will stick with my Over tanked Tengu and Noctis, does the job just as easily and I can afk tank in the Tengu. 1300 shields/3 seconds :D
You can afk tank this to.
******* missions.. its so idiotic to balance things around something as broken as the Eve mission system. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
496
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:11:00 -
[2901] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:If there was ever a reason to buy a marauder, this was not it.  Honestly salvaging on the fly...  The only time I ver used that tractor beam range bonus was when I wanted to get that mission critical loot one minute earlier... Doesn't happen that often, as I could just kill all, warp out and come back with my noctis. And once you go for blitzing all missions, you've got a MWD anyways, no? TBH looting stuff on the go provides some ISK/hour gain if you do missions in a manner that doesn't really benefit from stopping the process of grinding to loot stuff with dedicated ship. But justifying this training just for that... I don't know... |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:12:00 -
[2902] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Onictus wrote: Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.
If there was ever a reason to buy a marauder, this was not it.  Honestly salvaging on the fly...  The only time I ver used that tractor beam range bonus was when I wanted to get that mission critical loot one minute earlier... Doesn't happen that often, as I could just kill all, warp out and come back with my noctis. And once you go for blitzing all missions, you've got a MWD anyways, no? So other than saving on ammo, what is the advantage? Overtanking? Ship speed? DPS? Nothing matched up. My mach goes over 650 m/s on after burner and has a sig smaller than passive drake...with over 900 DPS to boot, it was basically a matter of charge destroy and bail. What exactly is the motivation to train ANOTHER x10 skill and buy another expensive ship....that can't match any of it?
Only reason to use marauder over faction or pirate bs is less ammo usage, a tiny bit better tank, lock range (110ish with golem) and maybe tractor bonus to get mission lootski faster. That +20-30 lock range was really useful on golem tho.
but when we talk about anything else thats not lvl4 missions then they are and will be crap with these changes.
there are better ships for lvl5-s and most lvl5-s are being done in carriers where player has carrier in every god damn system and they only blitz while deny all bad missions and just shuttle around.
but now then wehen we talk about machariel.. well everything is **** compared to it. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:16:00 -
[2903] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Grombutz wrote:
PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!
These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large sig? Dread fairy says YES! ......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versatile Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh" Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better.
The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four. |

Drizzitx
Rescue Team
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:21:00 -
[2904] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Drizzitx wrote:Well I was gunna waste a few months training the skills to fly a Golem decently, but now I think I will stick with my Over tanked Tengu and Noctis, does the job just as easily and I can afk tank in the Tengu. 1300 shields/3 seconds :D You can afk tank this to. ******* missions.. its so idiotic to balance things around something as broken as the Eve mission system.
That may be but most people are saying this takes an ASB, the Tengu is faster to get into, can be cheaper, and cap stable on its own. But yes missions themselves need to be balanced or something lol |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:22:00 -
[2905] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.
wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll? |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:23:00 -
[2906] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Onictus wrote:Grombutz wrote:
PvE players disagree - as one, I'm eager to say that I don't want to lose the only dedicated PvE-boat available. If you want to make an anti-cap BS, make a new line of battleships for it. TY!
These mauraders would be pretty much useless against a cap fleet. Local tank only wouldn't be able to handle slowcats. Plus an immobile battleship with a large sig? Dread fairy says YES! ......and for a dedicated PvE boat, mauraders kind of suck at PvE, they are big and they are slow and not particularly versatile Golem likely being the best but when I threw a pile of them into the fitter to see if I could come up with anything to justify buying the skill book(s) I came up with "meh" Aside from being able to salvage on the fly there isn't a lot going for them, the pirate BSs, specifcally mach and vidi are just plain better. The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.
Do you even play the game? A naglfar would Insta pop the vargur in a SINGLE HIT!!! |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
461
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:25:00 -
[2907] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.
Yeah but they can't kill a single sieged dread either. That is why I was questioning the logic of all of these changes at all.
If you want a ship that has uses both PvE and PvP and is T2 all you have to do is make them slightly toned down versions of the pirate battleships.
Leave the 4 turrets with 100% bonus / active rep bonus Give them real T2 resists
Now add x damage and application bonuses as appropriate
Why screw around with this getto dread that isn't a dread, and doesn't use tactical reconfig .....because stront crap. They are over complicating the issue. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:29:00 -
[2908] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four. wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll?
With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 50k? You could get >150k EHP on the old Vargur and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.
Ok I guess a Naglfar could one-shot it or at least do armor/hull damage on every cycle, but the other dreads wouldn't break it. |

Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers High Rollers
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:29:00 -
[2909] - Quote
Marauder rebalance DOA... I was really happy with the first set of changes, maybe 30% bonus in bastion mode was a little much but overall it was a good idea.
This new round of changes is basically just making them the way they were, maybe even a little worse. Having a bonus to webs doesn't help at all when I'm trying to take down frigates in a mission. I doubt anyone is going to be using a 900,000,000 isk ship for pvp just because it has a nifty bonus to webs, well unless you're just crazy space rich.
Combine this with the reduced drone bay and now you've just have a really expensive target ship. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
461
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:31:00 -
[2910] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four. wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll? With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 40-50k? You could get more shield EHP than that and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.
Mabye, but unless the dreads are shooting perfectly sync'd its going to (at the very least) bleed hull, I'd be amazed if it managed to last more than a 4-6 cycles. Even then eventially something is going to have to reload and that would be game over. |
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:31:00 -
[2911] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four. wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll? With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 40-50k? You could get more shield EHP than that and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot.
you do realize that XLASB's wont last forever and they use charges? And they have reload time? And Marauder cant kill dread?!
hmmmm who would win in the end? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
305
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:33:00 -
[2912] - Quote
The Spod wrote: This is a good thing. The difference in range, lock timeand numbers still vastly favor the marauder blob. It's not supposed to solo kill a capital, that would just be redundant power creep.
It's the subcapital anti-capital wing.
Dropping dreads on 200 marauders each pushing 2000-3000dps against capitals, each sporting target spectrum breaker to make the dread pilots hate their lock time... Not a good move.
Don't underestimate the range of dreads - most pack a selectiong of sebos and tracking computers and can quite handily push out dps to 100+km - in the given scenario tho people are more likely to drop a carrier blob rather than dreads.
Xequecal wrote: The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.
Being able to tank the dps numbers is one thing - 3 dreads will alpha through most sub-caps if they are sitting still - only takes a few good quality hits and even with 300-400K EHP the dreads can push past the tank - I've seen a dual plate, slaved vindi die under triage reps just coz the dreads got some good quality hits in a row. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:34:00 -
[2913] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four. wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll? With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 40-50k? You could get more shield EHP than that and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot. you do realize that XLASB's wont last forever and they use charges? And they have reload time? And Marauder cant kill dread?! hmmmm who would win in the end? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The bastion module syncs up pretty well with XLASB capacity so once your boosters are dry you turn off bastion and warp off. Or alternatively, just start moving and the dreads can't hit you anymore. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:37:00 -
[2914] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The bastion module syncs up pretty well with XLASB capacity so once your boosters are dry you turn off bastion and warp off. Or alternatively, just start moving and the dreads can't hit you anymore.
no.. really.. im sure that random guys just brawl out in deep 0... one marauder, one dread and they just do it without any backup at all from either side - and then at some point marauder just packs hes stuff and goes home to cry?
I think this will happen in future with these proposed changes!
I hope you get my sarcasm.
also.. that marauder wont be moving anywhere if it would be real life pvp situation in null. with mjd ab mwd or not - only escape with pod |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:41:00 -
[2915] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four. wut? care to explain and provide numbers or you just troll? With 2x XLASBs and links you could get a >25000 DPS tank on the original Vargur with the 30% stacking resist thing. Volley damage on a dread is like 50k? You could get >150k EHP on the old Vargur and XLASBs cycle faster than dreads shoot. Ok I guess a Naglfar could one-shot it or at least do armor/hull damage on every cycle, but the other dreads wouldn't break it.
My stabber can tank 200 dreads... much more reliably than your Marauders can.... |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:42:00 -
[2916] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Update here. BASTION MODULE Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated) Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
Skill requirements: High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large (specified) weapon damage,
100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay (Specified) Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large (specified) optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level) Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 5% bonus to large (specified) damage per level
I feel really bad for you CCP. The Marauders are currently close to mid range ships and you are proposing to continue that characteristic but several things cause problems.
1. Close range combat ships with a micro jump drive bonus...  2. 7.5% bonus to webs per level [A player can fly a Vindicator in LESS than HALF the time it takes to get in a Marauder] 3. 5% damage bonus per level [again, Vindicator = bigger bonus + LESS than HALF the training time] 4. I don't know what other people used the utility slots for but put some Energy Vampires on there and you are cap stable so the capacitor bonus makes Energy Neutralizes the only module worth using. (This is a great opportunity to make Marauders more PVP 'friendly' (irony) but makes 3 high slots useless in PVE.) 5. As the proposal for the Bastion module stands now, it is only useful for long range combat and if a player plans on using close close range combat they might as well fly a Faction Battleship. [again, Faction BS = bigger damage bonus + bigger web bonus + LESS than HALF the training time] 6. The 2 qualities that make the current Marauder useful are their utility high slots and their repair bonus. If a player needs to equip a module to get the repair bonus then the ship is a lesser Faction Battleship with a glorified 'repair' module.
I have to admit, the Marauder change needs to happen but what that balance of old and new is going to be is not clear to anyone right now  |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:42:00 -
[2917] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:The bastion module syncs up pretty well with XLASB capacity so once your boosters are dry you turn off bastion and warp off. Or alternatively, just start moving and the dreads can't hit you anymore. no.. really.. im sure that random guys just brawl out in deep 0... one marauder, one dread and they just do it without any backup at all from either side - and then at some point marauder just packs hes stuff and goes home to cry? I think this will happen in future with these proposed changes! I hope you get my sarcasm. also.. that marauder wont be moving anywhere if it would be real life pvp situation in null. with mjd ab mwd or not - only escape with pod
I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:49:00 -
[2918] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.
ok I understand.. for chatting and just communicating with internet spaceship people in these forums is one thing but lets try to help out CCP here by telling what we want - not what this or that setup coulda woulda do in theory only etc
do you want marauder to be able tank dread short time? I dont.. I really doupt that you want it either :P |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
331
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:54:00 -
[2919] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible. ok I understand.. for chatting and just communicating with internet spaceship people in these forums is one thing but lets try to help out CCP here by telling what we want - not what this or that setup coulda woulda do in theory only etc do you want marauder to be able tank dread short time? I dont.. I really doupt that you want it either :P
Do people here know what they want?
Do they all want the same thing?
Do some of them want mutually exclusive things?
(brace for ensuing flame war...)
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
490
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:57:00 -
[2920] - Quote
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful. |
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
464
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:57:00 -
[2921] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Xequecal wrote:I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible. ok I understand.. for chatting and just communicating with internet spaceship people in these forums is one thing but lets try to help out CCP here by telling what we want - not what this or that setup coulda woulda do in theory only etc do you want marauder to be able tank dread short time? I dont.. I really doupt that you want it either :P
I would love a T2 battleship that could y'know battle.
This aint it though. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 15:58:00 -
[2922] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Do people here know what they want?
Do they all want the same thing?
Do some of them want mutually exclusive things?
(brace for ensuing flame war...)
as we have seen, they listen who screams the loudest... so lets not allow clueless miner person to scream louder 
Onictus wrote:I would love a T2 battleship that could y'know battle.
This aint it though.
+1 |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
305
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:02:00 -
[2923] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:
I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.
You can't go by the EFT volley damage tho - the formula allows for upto 1.49x (don't think 1.5x is actually possible but could be wrong) damage for normal shots and a moros wrecking shot could be almost 200K volley and a decently fit moros will be doing an average of about 70k raw alpha ignoring resists against a stationary target - even one could potentially get enough lucky shots to push through the tank unless the EHP is really massive and 2-3 almost definitely will against all but the most extreme tanked most sub-caps. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:03:00 -
[2924] - Quote
Again, I'm sad that the ASB anomaly of a repair system has had such an effect on this rebalance effort. The 30% resists weren't that over the top until you throw a couple of ASBs onto one of these hulls with the hull rep bonus + the old bastion bonus. Can we please one-per-ship this abomination?
I would be fine if they specialized the marauder class into a mobile (MJD) long range weapons platform as long as they introduced another T2 line for brawling. As it stands, you can make both styles of play work with the existing TQ hulls. With the latest version of the proposal you get a mixed bag of bonuses that wind up marginalizing both roles compared to the current TQ version.
What I'd like to see is CCP either pick a role like EWAR, sniping, brawling, or gate crashing and tailor the hull and bonuses to it or select a specific aspect or capability such as tanking, damage application, damage amount, or mobility and go with that. I want a real, defined direction for the class stated so we can actually provide feedback on the proposed changes. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
331
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:04:00 -
[2925] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:as we have seen, they listen who screams the loudest... so lets not allow clueless miner person to scream louder 
This unfortunate state of affairs is called Democracy. It's outlawed in most parts of the world, for good reason!
Onictus wrote:I would love a T2 battleship that could y'know battle.
This aint it though.
You need to define what is it. Currently a marauder is a T2 ship that deliberately can't battle. You're suggestion you want to change the purpose of the ship class.
I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
331
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:06:00 -
[2926] - Quote
******************************************** ********************************************
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Again, I'm sad that the ASB anomaly of a repair system has had such an effect on this rebalance effort. The 30% resists weren't that over the top until you throw a couple of ASBs onto one of these hulls with the hull rep bonus + the old bastion bonus. Can we please one-per-ship this abomination?
******************************************** ********************************************
^^ THIS! ^^
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
305
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:08:00 -
[2927] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.
Thats the problem with this thread - you essentially have different camps something like:
-Those that want a T2 PVP battleship -Those that want an actual marauder with PVE and PVP application -Those that want a highsec PVE monster |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1733
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:14:00 -
[2928] - Quote
Houm, after some more thought, still don't get it.
The MJD bonus says: SNIPE! (obviously) The tiny drone hold says: SNIPE! (because, 5 x light drones can be gone in 20 seconds) The Bastion module says: SNIPE! (range + active tank, what else you need?)
But then you get a bonus to webbers? WTF? If you need to web something closer than 27 km (IIRC), you're not sniping and then WTH didn't you bring a faction BS? Because the bastion boosts your active tank, eating cap away from your MJD?
Marauders are extremely expensive, and they should be extremely useful too. The primitive Bastion module was nice, because the extra passive tank on a high slot meant you could sacrifice tank for something else, but in its current shape is just middle of nowhere.
And really can't see why should a sniper class have bonuses to not sniping. Tracking and explosion velocity bonus would make more sense in dealing with small craft at any range; the current bastion + webbers bonus means that if you use your webbers, you're kind of doing it wrong.
With the initial Bastion, i pictured the Marauder as a long range ship which can make a standoff if needed (flee or stay, it had both options). But now, it doesn't "stays" well enough to justify not MJD'in away, specially with the nearly useless drone hold. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:19:00 -
[2929] - Quote
To be honest, when I read the first version of the bonuses and the bastion module I had one thought. Flexibility.
With that combination you could go light tanked, load up on damage application and projection mods, jump out 100K, bastion, and rain death on your enemies. And once they regrouped, you jump away and do it all over again. What fun!
or
You could way over tank it with limited damage application and MJD right into the middle of a nasty furball, spewing close range hell while your enemies ran for cover. You probably couldn't kill any of them, but they would likely want to relocate. This of course would all begin with the time honored battle shout:
"Hey! Hold my beer and watch this!!!"
Both of these roles could be had with the original version of the proposal. I would give anything to have an occasion to scream that phrase above, even to the annoyance of my real life neighbors. lol |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1733
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:21:00 -
[2930] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful.
They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
490
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:25:00 -
[2931] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful. They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO.
The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P
What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships.
Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode.
For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode.
That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1734
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:40:00 -
[2932] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful. They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO. The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships. Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode. For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode. That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer.
Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage... The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

baltec1
Bat Country
7834
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:41:00 -
[2933] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful.
Its not that handy for immobile blaster boats. Most fights happen in null range which is not in web range. |

Zane Ziebold
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:45:00 -
[2934] - Quote
i just think that ccp is trying to cram to much in to one hull, it would be really good if they could change Marauder a little, and then add a T2 attack battle ships that could use bastion mode. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
490
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:52:00 -
[2935] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful. They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO. The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships. Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode. For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode. That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer. Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage...
easy... 5% rof then...
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
490
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 16:52:00 -
[2936] - Quote
Zane Ziebold wrote:i just think that ccp is trying to cram to much in to one hull, it would be really good if they could change Marauder a little, and then add a T2 attack battle ships that could use bastion mode.
no no no I want to pvp with that T2 TEMPEST hull.. not with the HORRIBLE loooking malestrom hull. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:01:00 -
[2937] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: You need to define what is it. Currently a marauder is a T2 ship that deliberately can't battle. You're suggesting you want to change the purpose of the ship class.
I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.
You know, you would have a point if CCP hadn't said they wanted to give the ship some pvP application. Which is good, because mauraders overall are "meh" on the PvE side of things, if you must PvE the pirate ships do it better.
The only reason to fly them is if you are a salvager that can't be arsed to get your noctis or if you want to save ammo, currently.
So like I said, toss this ghetto dread module that other than making it a fail ship serves no purpose and look at what works.
.....what works are the pirate battleships.
That being said
1) Keep the current role bonuses (i.e. 100% damage for turrets and active tank) and real T2 resists 2) Add application; tracking and optimal for amarr/gallente, falloff for matar, explosion velocity for caldari 3) Generous damage bonuses, and none of this 5% crap 7.5 at least, 10% better (I know power creep, damn right the ships aren't worth the isk currently) 4) web bonus? I like it....a lot, but I PvP first and carebear only so much as I need to fund my other endeavors. 5) tractor bonus? ...is meh... could be made to work, I'll get into that is a sec
After that, tinker with fitting, buffer, speed and agility to give each race a bit of flavor
Make the Vargur operate like a mach without to dronebay, but with a web bonus. Its a Pest model, pest are fast, people like fast battleships. ROLL WITH THAT Make the Kronos a T2 Vindi, no one would mind, the one I would leave at 5% damage, but with an optimal bonus that makes it a mean blaster boat, and rails love optimal....so less damage more buffer, maybe a bit slower Paladin, roll the cap bonus, we hate cap bonuses, they suck. Apoc with a huge buffer and a web bonus. ******* CRUCIAL I would fly that all day and all night. Golem, ugh missiles. C'mon raven with a tank, make it a bit slower but something to be feared if you either a) fit the rigs to get some range on torps b) cruise missiles.
I'd say add the tractor/4 turret/tractor/web as a role bonus.
Simply because if you really want the ship dual purposed, you will NEVER be using all of the bonuses, ever. Make the build price around the current value of the Pirate BSs (rattler excluded that thing has issues).
Bingo you have a T2 battleship that people would actually buy, right now there is no real reason other than the novely of the bastar....bastion module that would make anyone intterested in it. rooting myself in place goes against ALL of my eve related instincts, as much as relying on an MJD to be up when I need it does. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:05:00 -
[2938] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage...
That bonus is there to account for only having 4 turrets....
A damage bonus after the fact is being practical. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1506
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:09:00 -
[2939] - Quote
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:16:00 -
[2940] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.
There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price. |
|

Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:31:00 -
[2941] - Quote
I realize this is a tech 3ish concept for a tech 2 boat, but why not allow us to tailor the bastion module to fit our needs?
Let it retain its damage application bonuses, and current set of drawbacks, but make it consume a fuel block made of 4 different materials, and the bonuses the module applies correlates with the ratios of the material types we used to build it.
For example, lets say we build these fuel blocks with heavy water, liquid ozone, enriched uranium and a racial isotope, and the bastion module can provide a bonus to either local reps, shield/armor resists, further damage app, or a racial ewar.
So if someone wanted 100% bonus to local reps, they would build their fuel blocks using only heavy water, or a person wanting full T2 resists would use only liquid ozone. Someone wishing to further enhance damage application would build their fuel blocks mixing enriched uranium and the racial isotope that matched the ewar bonus they wanted.
This kind of functionality already exists with scripted modules, should be easy enough to extend to this setting.
Also not being able to be remotely assisted while in bastion mode kills many potential uses, I am fine with all drawbacks save that.
and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:34:00 -
[2942] - Quote
Lacun Motabilum wrote: and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.
Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:36:00 -
[2943] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function. There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price. or pirate for wat less skill points |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1734
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:38:00 -
[2944] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....
I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P
But for others is too.. non useful. They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO. The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships. Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode. For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode. That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer. Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage... easy... 5% rof then...
Well, that would be nice but maybe would need a cap usage bonus on the Paladin and Kronos, to compensate. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:41:00 -
[2945] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote: and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.
Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game.
The bonus itself isnt bland, its the lack a variety across the class.
No racial flavor = bland.
Its like eating tacos with no seasoning, spaghetti with no sauce, pizza with no cheese, all bland. |

Daisai
Daisai Investments.
144
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:43:00 -
[2946] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
So at first you buffed their tank but not their dps and your way to fix that is to nerf the tank? Can you show some footage of a marauder like this being used compared to a current maurauder ?
Also with the dps application wise. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:49:00 -
[2947] - Quote
Lacun Motabilum wrote:Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote: and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.
Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game. The bonus itself isnt bland, its the lack a variety across the class. No racial flavor = bland.
So
What weapon doesn't like a 90% web....better a 90% faction web being laid on a close target? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1282
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:53:00 -
[2948] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
So
What weapon doesn't like a 90% web....better a 90% faction web being laid on a close target?
I bolded the important part with the MJD and Long range weapons the web bonus is superflous.
now a web range bonus... now we are talking... but that should be built into the bastion mod and not the hull. IMO There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:54:00 -
[2949] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote: and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.
Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game. The bonus itself isnt bland, its the lack a variety across the class. No racial flavor = bland. So What weapon doesn't like a 90% web....better a 90% faction web being laid on a close target?
A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away. |

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:54:00 -
[2950] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function. With the drone bay nerf the Golem does less damage than a plain T1 Raven |
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
468
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:56:00 -
[2951] - Quote
Lacun Motabilum wrote:
A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.
Get boosts + FN web |

Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:02:00 -
[2952] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:
A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.
Get boosts + FN web
With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km.
14 * 1.345 = 18.83km |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
468
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:10:00 -
[2953] - Quote
Lacun Motabilum wrote:Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:
A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.
Get boosts + FN web With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km. 14 * 1.345 = 18.83km
Is overheating that hard for you? |

Daniel Mar
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:38:00 -
[2954] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Onictus wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function. There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price. or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points that ^ is it just me or do other ppl see these changes as nerf aswell rather than buffing marauders?
PVP:
No one in low or null will ever use a bastion module, that would make the fleet a sitting duck ready to be sniped. that **** is just terribad for pvp together with the removal of the little armor marauders have. not even starting with the fact of only 2 rig slots compared to navy and pirate BS, which makes the armor/shield removal even more bad.
Marauder 2 rigs, 8k armor... Navy/Pirate 3 rigs, 10k armor. the little better resits will not make up for a missing rig and 2k less armor and the derp price tag. Also, there is not a single scenario I can imagine a Golem with cruise or Paladin with Beams, sitting there with and activated bastion module. lets face is those weapon systems are dead for pvp... and short range systems with being pinned down and not able to move?... dont see that happening. Kronos and Vargur perhaps as sniper but lol I'd still use a Tier3, Rokh or Mega fleet any day.
PvE:
And removing the rep bonus and drones makes the ship terribly bad and even less used for PvE. I see no reason not to use a navy or pirate ship.
Golem for example is so terrible cus it fires only 4 missiles with 200% damage each. BUT, mission npc use defender missiles and pop them, wich removes 25% of your volley or even 50% if they pop 2. That ship badly needs a Missile HP bonus to make it useful for pve. Navy Raven is just so much better...
Paladin.... no idea, but a neut resistance bonus comes to my mind. just cus amarr is so neutery stuff. Not sure if thats actually useful for PvE or pvp, but its a start.
And yeah that useless tractor bonus is totally outdated since the introduction of the noctis.
Not sure waht to say about vargur and kronos. I liked them as they were and have no further ideas yet. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
493
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:40:00 -
[2955] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.
Doing same damage as T1 is NOT plenety of damage.
T1 battleships can be remote repaired and do same damage, at a fraction of cost.
Pirate battleships do MORE damage.
On cruiser hulls projection is a good way to boost T2 version, but on battleships is not, because for example an APOC already has an ABSURD projection and more of it will not help. Only damage remains |

Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:43:00 -
[2956] - Quote
My mids and lows can't hold all these modules. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:57:00 -
[2957] - Quote
Stirlsha wrote:Can anyone help me understand why you would need bonuses to webifiers on a cruise missile Golem?
Am I missing something here?
That's really easy. You use the superior range of your cruise missiles to get close to the enemy and web him.
It's a win - win situation, he gets close enough to apply damage, you get close enough to use your now uber webs.  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Crysantos Callahan
EntroPrelatial Industria DARKNESS.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:58:00 -
[2958] - Quote
Well let's assume we want to work on a marauder with the idea to make it a sniping, i.e. long range, extremely tanky ship with good damage application. The mjd bonus is implying that ccp wants the ship to work at a range around 100km +-50km.
The bastion mode is a good idea, the basic boosts it provides are perfectly fine and make sense. I'd even go so far to add a sig malus like with mwds... but the local rep boost should be reintegrated, it's an essential feature. On the other hand the t2 resists should be in line with the factions the marauders make sense to fight, just take a look at the paladin. This is a pve ship...
When it comes to the webbing bonus... it doesn't make sense for me to include that when the ship is supposed to work at range, so it would make more sense to add a TP range bonus, at least into bastion mode. The webbing bonus just doesnt fit into the current idea. I like the tractor beams/salvagers on this ship, but it does lack the range to compete with a noctis and it's very immobile. So I'd suggest to include a tractor range similar to the noctis.
Torpedoes need to be looked at in general, not just for the golem.
Tldr:
- Tp range/strength boni to bastion mode - tractor beam range boni - local rep bonus back on the hull - sig blossom effect while in bastion mode |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:59:00 -
[2959] - Quote
Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:05:00 -
[2960] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.
Why do a lot of people think it should be just better than pirate? Because it costs more in isk and sp, and if pirate is just plain better for all situations (which it is currently) then there is never a reason to get a marauder
Tanking a lot better? Ok MAYBE you have a point, but in many pve applications this doesnt help at all, and for the few it does, it means you are probably doing it solo, (i.e., doing it wrong) meaning that if you use multiple, then it is useless as they can not be RR'ed. Meaning its ONLY application is solo where tons of tank is required, which isnt going to be as efficient as a group of RR'ed ships anyway
tank a vanguard solo? Well besides the fact that was for the previous version (not the current iteration) he only explicitly said the first wave of a VG. This does not imply it can tank the whole site, in fact, even if it could he said the fit was altered to have even less dps. There would NEVER be a reason to do this because A. if you solo an incursion you get 0 pay out, and B. it would be better to use a fleet of RR'ed ships with higher dps |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
375
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:09:00 -
[2961] - Quote
Onictus wrote: So other than saving on ammo, what is the advantage? Overtanking? Ship speed? DPS? Nothing matched up. My mach goes over 650 m/s on after burner and has a sig smaller than passive drake...with over 900 DPS to boot, it was basically a matter of charge destroy and bail.
What exactly is the motivation to train ANOTHER x10 skill and buy another expensive ship....that can't match any of it?
Dunno, really.
Right now my golem can rep 1.0something K damage per cycle. 30 - 35 % more if I use an XL-ASB. Also it can fling 1K dps at roughly 200km (if need be). And it can carry a whole lot of a heck of cap boosters... 36 to be precise + enough missiles to sterilize a planet.
BUT! And here's the thing that's really funny, if I were to use a maelstrom, I could get the same active tank out of it. but I could not carrry as many cap boosters.
And if I use a CNR I can out dps it... CNR has more raw Shield HP than the Golem ofc. but meh, I've never been good on buffer tank so I don't care about that.
So, if you want a mael with cruise missiles and still halfway decent damage. There you go. The Golem will be your new baby. Just stay away from anything that looks like it could use ecm equipment. Really anything, at all... 
EDIT: Golem has way better resists than the mael, ofc. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
150
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:11:00 -
[2962] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.
Not to mention you can solo level 5 missions with them after these changes. Won't need a 4 bil fit either.
______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
715
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:13:00 -
[2963] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine. Why do a lot of people think it should be just better than pirate? Because it costs more in isk and sp, and if pirate is just plain better for all situations (which it is currently) then there is never a reason to get a marauder Tanking a lot better? Ok MAYBE you have a point, but in many pve applications this doesnt help at all, and for the few it does, it means you are probably doing it solo, (i.e., doing it wrong) meaning that if you use multiple, then it is useless as they can not be RR'ed. Meaning its ONLY application is solo where tons of tank is required, which isnt going to be as efficient as a group of RR'ed ships anyway tank a vanguard solo? Well besides the fact that was for the previous version (not the current iteration) he only explicitly said the first wave of a VG. This does not imply it can tank the whole site, in fact, even if it could he said the fit was altered to have even less dps. There would NEVER be a reason to do this because A. if you solo an incursion you get 0 pay out, and B. it would be better to use a fleet of RR'ed ships with higher dps Just because RR may be better it doesn't mean solo options shouldn't exist, nor does it mean doing things solo is wrong. Less efficient? Sure, but independent operation where feasible has it's own benefits and won't be going away. |

Jamie Clark
Zeonic Federation The Void Mandate
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:15:00 -
[2964] - Quote
Thanks you, i was training up to fly a Vargur but now i guess i will be back to my Tengu mission running ship.
So for PVE is it going to be annoying to use the MJD to move you self in to a spot so you can warp on grid to the gate, that is also going to mess up my cap recharge rate becasue i have to remove a cap recharger.
Also with the drones, i will have one flight of salvage drones and one flight of light drones, i did like being able to have a backup set for the elite frigs that like to point you. Because you changed how npc like to kill drones.
From the sound of it you are trying to hard to make a pve ship good for pvp, take the advice in the post and make another t2 battleship. |

Jamie Clark
Zeonic Federation The Void Mandate
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:19:00 -
[2965] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Onictus wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function. There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price. or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points
+1 |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
715
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:20:00 -
[2966] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:
A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.
Get boosts + FN web With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km. 14 * 1.345 = 18.83km Is overheating that hard for you? Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges? |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:26:00 -
[2967] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:To be honest, when I read the first version of the bonuses and the bastion module I had one thought. Flexibility.
With that combination you could go light tanked, load up on damage application and projection mods, jump out 100K, bastion, and rain death on your enemies. And once they regrouped, you jump away and do it all over again. What fun!
or
You could way over tank it with limited damage application and MJD right into the middle of a nasty furball, spewing close range hell while your enemies ran for cover. You probably couldn't kill any of them, but they would likely want to relocate. This of course would all begin with the time honored battle shout:
"Hey! Hold my beer and watch this!!!"
Both of these roles could be had with the original version of the proposal. I would give anything to have an occasion to scream that phrase above, even to the annoyance of my real life neighbors. lol If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Daniel Mar
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:29:00 -
[2968] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Stirlsha wrote:Can anyone help me understand why you would need bonuses to webifiers on a cruise missile Golem?
Am I missing something here? That's really easy. You use the superior range of your cruise missiles to get close to the enemy and web him. It's a win - win situation, he gets close enough to apply damage, you get close enough to use your now uber webs. 
sarcasm FTW :) |

hellcane
Never Back Down
91
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:30:00 -
[2969] - Quote
Well, I was excited about the marauder changes, until I read what they slapped together.
Webs on a mjd platform? Optimal+falloff for turrets, speed for missiles? Nothing to outperform pirate/faction hulls outside ammo usage? No changes to tractor bonuses, even after adding mjd? Added tank on a mjd platform? Added tank on a pve ship? |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
468
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:31:00 -
[2970] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:Onictus wrote:Lacun Motabilum wrote:
A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.
Get boosts + FN web With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km. 14 * 1.345 = 18.83km Is overheating that hard for you? Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges?
Constant?
OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats
....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay. |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:37:00 -
[2971] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Onictus wrote: Is overheating that hard for you?
Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges? Constant? OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats ....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay. Ironically, it was the people complaining about the loss of the web bonus in PvE that resulted in the last presented iteration of the marauder proposal. That aside, yes, according to this very thread people can and do use that bonus in PvE. Personally I don't, but I'm not such a special snow flake to assume superiority over everyone else for it. |

Daniel Mar
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:38:00 -
[2972] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine. Not to mention you can solo level 5 missions with them after these changes. Won't need a 4 bil fit either. Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....
Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;) |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1506
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:43:00 -
[2973] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Onictus wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function. There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price. or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points There was something big that they tried to balance by making the price extremely high and the skill points extremely intensive hoping that it would create and artificial restriction on the number of these ships. Just cant think of what they are . Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:43:00 -
[2974] - Quote
Daniel Mar wrote:Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....
Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;) Why not lowsec? with the MJD you have a chance of escape and with webs you can kill anyone in scram range. Still risky business but theres more reward as well |

Daniel Mar
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:48:00 -
[2975] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Daniel Mar wrote:Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....
Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;) Why not lowsec? with the MJD you have a chance of escape and with webs you can kill anyone in scram range. Still risky business but theres more reward as well Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:53:00 -
[2976] - Quote
Daniel Mar wrote:Rowells wrote:Daniel Mar wrote:Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....
Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;) Why not lowsec? with the MJD you have a chance of escape and with webs you can kill anyone in scram range. Still risky business but theres more reward as well Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much MJD spool up isn't necessary though, one could just potentially warp out if the Bastion cycle is close enough to ending. While anoms and belts make bastion ill advised, could they not work in cosmic sig sites (DED's, etc) with the added time required to scan for warp in? |

Yaaar's Revenge
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:59:00 -
[2977] - Quote
Serious point - why not get rid of Black Ops ships and combine them into marauders, so you'd have a 4-turret marauder with the black ops stuff thrown in. And get rid of the Bastion module, just give it the ability to use a covert ops cloak. Then the complaining would stop and everyone would be happy.... Seriously please do this - I would pay through the nose for a bird of prey-esque battleship |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:00:00 -
[2978] - Quote
Daniel Mar wrote:Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much Why don't we see rorquals or dreads deploy or seige? They have limited defense (if any) against targets that can tackle them and their cycle is 5 minutes rather than 60 seconds. And like Tyberius said missions with deadspace require scanning down. Which gives you a warning and time to prepare to bail. Still feasible, just requires a bit more attentiveness. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1734
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:03:00 -
[2979] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Onictus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Onictus wrote: Is overheating that hard for you?
Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges? Constant? OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats ....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay. Ironically, it was the people complaining about the loss of the web bonus in PvE that resulted in the last presented iteration of the marauder proposal. That aside, yes, according to this very thread people can and do use that bonus in PvE. Personally I don't, but I'm not such a special snow flake to assume superiority over everyone else for it.
Yes, this is why everyone but you is calling bullsh*t on adding a close range bonus to a long range class without drones. Right because ships with MJD and long range firepower are meant to web their targets, for a mere 1.5 billion and a gazillion skillpoints.
MJD adds range tank, that's nice for a sniper. Bastion should add close range firepower, be it raw alpha, damage delivery or increased DPS.
That would make worth the way higher price tag.
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:10:00 -
[2980] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Ironically, it was the people complaining about the loss of the web bonus in PvE that resulted in the last presented iteration of the marauder proposal. That aside, yes, according to this very thread people can and do use that bonus in PvE. Personally I don't, but I'm not such a special snow flake to assume superiority over everyone else for it.
Yes, this is why everyone but you is calling bullsh*t on adding a close range bonus to a long range class without drones. Right because ships with MJD and long range firepower are meant to web their targets, for a mere 1.5 billion and a gazillion skillpoints. MJD adds range tank, that's nice for a sniper. Bastion should add close range firepower, be it raw alpha, damage delivery or increased DPS. That would make worth the way higher price tag. I think you misread my posts if you are claiming that I'm for the web bonus, or I'm misreading yours. Though, your idea of the bastion's weapons augmentation does work better with the web bonus rather than being irrelevant as it currently does. And the current bastion works better with the MJD bonus. |
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4587
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:15:00 -
[2981] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:To be honest, when I read the first version of the bonuses and the bastion module I had one thought. Flexibility.
With that combination you could go light tanked, load up on damage application and projection mods, jump out 100K, bastion, and rain death on your enemies. And once they regrouped, you jump away and do it all over again. What fun!
or
You could way over tank it with limited damage application and MJD right into the middle of a nasty furball, spewing close range hell while your enemies ran for cover. You probably couldn't kill any of them, but they would likely want to relocate. This of course would all begin with the time honored battle shout:
"Hey! Hold my beer and watch this!!!"
Both of these roles could be had with the original version of the proposal. I would give anything to have an occasion to scream that phrase above, even to the annoyance of my real life neighbors. lol I have to agree with this assessment, as I had exactly the same thoughts on the original proposal. I'll admit, the only thing I thought might make it better was a tracking bonus in there somewhere (for both PVE and PVP, Long or short range use).
Either that or to make Bastion mode immune to the self target lock breaking effect of a Spectrum Target Breaker module. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:16:00 -
[2982] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.
Tanking it solo is one thing finishing site is another incursion are not wh farmland if you go in you will not be webed sometimes / pointed sometimes neuted sometimes
You will be perma jamd perma webd perma pointed from multiple ships at the same time... going in solo(1st iteration) while it wouldn't be certain death(and it should be) you would stay there til DT or died if you didn't boot cap stable fit = even less dps on already pirate inferior dps due to allocation of additional mods for cap stuff.
Add dual webs as mandatory to kill frigs(when you are not jamd) and situation is getting worse there is only so much slots per ship....you can always try to jump around site to attempt to brake jams and use small window to eliminate frigs but that's not gaming it become punishment at that point.
Also 1st iteration was simply too much bastion focused all your tank was basically in bastion when you drop out of it nerfed hit points without any resist buff simply translated to easy alpha kill,no benefit from RR what so ever.
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:22:00 -
[2983] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine. Tanking it solo is one thing finishing site is another incursion are not wh farmland if you go in you will not be webed sometimes / pointed sometimes neuted sometimes You will be perma jamd perma webd perma pointed from multiple ships at the same time... going in solo(1st iteration) while it wouldn't be certain death(and it should be) you would stay there til DT or died if you didn't boot cap stable fit = even less dps on already pirate inferior dps due to allocation of additional mods for cap stuff. Add dual webs as mandatory to kill frigs(when you are not jamd) and situation is getting worse there is only so much slots per ship....you can always try to jump around site to attempt to brake jams and use small window to eliminate frigs but that's not gaming it become punishment at that point. Also 1st iteration was simply too much bastion focused all your tank was basically in bastion when you drop out of it nerfed hit points without any resist buff simply translated to easy alpha kill,no benefit from RR what so ever. I'm not syaing to do the vangaurd solo I was just pointing out that the bastion now does the job of 2-3 logistics. A very sel-reliant ship in my opinion. The point of that example was to show it's potential to do solo work where you would normally need assitance from logi.
and not sure if i read your post right but the bastion is ewar immune. so there is no jamming (neuting im not so sure) |

lixxi chixxi
Leper Outcast Unclean
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:24:00 -
[2984] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
How about doing the same for tracking computers? It's the same PITA to wait for the cycle to change out scripts.
M |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:26:00 -
[2985] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Rowells wrote:Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.
Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine. Tanking it solo is one thing finishing site is another incursion are not wh farmland if you go in you will not be webed sometimes / pointed sometimes neuted sometimes You will be perma jamd perma webd perma pointed from multiple ships at the same time... going in solo(1st iteration) while it wouldn't be certain death(and it should be) you would stay there til DT or died if you didn't boot cap stable fit = even less dps on already pirate inferior dps due to allocation of additional mods for cap stuff. Add dual webs as mandatory to kill frigs(when you are not jamd) and situation is getting worse there is only so much slots per ship....you can always try to jump around site to attempt to brake jams and use small window to eliminate frigs but that's not gaming it become punishment at that point. Also 1st iteration was simply too much bastion focused all your tank was basically in bastion when you drop out of it nerfed hit points without any resist buff simply translated to easy alpha kill,no benefit from RR what so ever. I'm not syaing to do the vangaurd solo I was just pointing out that the bastion now does the job of 2-3 logistics. A very sel-reliant ship in my opinion. The point of that example was to show it's potential to do solo work where you would normally need assitance from logi. and not sure if i read your post right but the bastion is ewar immune. so there is no jamming (neuting im not so sure)
You are right i totally forgotten about immunity and neuts are too weak in VG to matter
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
346
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:42:00 -
[2986] - Quote
wait a tick.
think about the name...Marauder. from wiki- ma-+raud-+er /m+Ö-êr+¦d+Ör/ noun
noun: marauder;GÇâplural noun: marauders
1. a person who marauds; a raider. "a band of English marauders were surprised and overcome" synonyms: raider, plunderer, pillager, looter, robber, pirate, freebooter, bandit, bandito, highwayman, rustler;
to me, this sounds like a ship thats designed to get in fast, strike hard and leave. they should not be tanky bricks, they should have t2 resists, be as fast as command ships, strike with lethal force and fade. they should have mobility and the mjd bonus fits that well. low sensor str is one thing, but it needs high scan res. has to lock and dish out the pain. the sensor str being limited and only pumped up in bastion mode actually fits this play style. "forget electronics..when we hit bastion mode, NOTHING CAN STOP US!" lesser tank (not minimal) is ok, if we have good resists. somewhere between a command ship and a t1 bs with a bonus attached similar to the damnation.
now, we can add the bastion mode which would give whatever bonuses you guys determine, but a marauder is a quick striking ship. this train of thought would fit right in with the mjd/sniper mode. or, one could set it up for gank with burner/mwd and speed in to orbit. it doesnt need more damage bonuses, it need application. more tracking, more range, explosion radius or velocity or just:
-make the golem a hybrid platform and just have gun mode in all things. bastion gives good gun bonuses along with tank or rep. the golem was made when the raven was a beast of a torp boat...old skewl. -take some armor, give us the 7.5% rep rate back. -give it an rr bonus similar (but way less) than logi. maybe out to 20k on large reppers. -how about similar to the damnation, a 7.5% bonus to armor or shield per lev? we have less armor than normal, but through experience, we learn to "fight the ship"?
this way fits a marauder style better. to go in, wreak havoc, patch each other up and leave. self reliance as an individual or a team. |

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:50:00 -
[2987] - Quote
Ok folks, now I try to explain why the webifier bonus on Marauders is, generally speaking, a bad idea:
Marauders have no means of using their webs in a "offensive" way, catching targets. Literally any other subcap will outrun a Marauder and a measly 20ish km web (FN w/ links and OH) is by no means enough to reliably catch targets without another webber in fleet. But for the simple sake of locking an already catched target down one does not really need a bonused web, especially as the Vindicator is already pretty strong in that niche as far as battleships go with the additional boons of being quite a lot faster than Marauders and bringing the most DPS of any subcapital bearing down on it's unfortunate target.
Additionally, as already stated multiple times, Marauders are, in their current iteration, quite obviously geared torwards ranged combat, where shortrange-webs lose even more of their offensive value. While most other Marauders could be kind of pressed into a shortrange role, Lasers will just never be brawling material.
That leaves Marauder webs in a purely "defensive" role, covering the Marauder against certain threats it could not otherwise deal with, namely close orbiting frigates and cruisers. However, does such a limited use really justify assigning a ship bonus to this module, especially as 08/15 60% webs and the neut(s) a Marauder would surely be packing would almost certainly lead to an almost identical result, especially after multiple webs start landing, make sense? |

Thomas Gilmour
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:06:00 -
[2988] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. So less than current tank, without any speed tank, and BS sized sigs. Yeah. So much for having a role appropriate replacement for Tengus for the Maze. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
306
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:07:00 -
[2989] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:wait a tick.
think about the name...Marauder. from wiki- ma-+raud-+er /m+Ö-êr+¦d+Ör/ noun
noun: marauder;GÇâplural noun: marauders
1. a person who marauds; a raider. "a band of English marauders were surprised and overcome" synonyms: raider, plunderer, pillager, looter, robber, pirate, freebooter, bandit, bandito, highwayman, rustler;
to me, this sounds like a ship thats designed to get in fast, strike hard and leave. they should not be tanky bricks, they should have t2 resists, be as fast as command ships, strike with lethal force and fade. they should have mobility and the mjd bonus fits that well. low sensor str is one thing, but it needs high scan res. has to lock and dish out the pain. the sensor str being limited and only pumped up in bastion mode actually fits this play style. "forget electronics..when we hit bastion mode, NOTHING CAN STOP US!" lesser tank (not minimal) is ok, if we have good resists. somewhere between a command ship and a t1 bs with a bonus attached similar to the damnation.
now, we can add the bastion mode which would give whatever bonuses you guys determine, but a marauder is a quick striking ship. this train of thought would fit right in with the mjd/sniper mode. or, one could set it up for gank with burner/mwd and speed in to orbit. it doesnt need more damage bonuses, it need application. more tracking, more range, explosion radius or velocity or just:
-make the golem a hybrid platform and just have gun mode in all things. bastion gives good gun bonuses along with tank or rep. the golem was made when the raven was a beast of a torp boat...old skewl. -take some armor, give us the 7.5% rep rate back. -give it an rr bonus similar (but way less) than logi. maybe out to 20k on large reppers. -how about similar to the damnation, a 7.5% bonus to armor or shield per lev? we have less armor than normal, but through experience, we learn to "fight the ship"?
this way fits a marauder style better. to go in, wreak havoc, patch each other up and leave. self reliance as an individual or a team.
As per an earlier post I made I think Marauders was just a cool name they slapped on a line of T2 BS and there isn't an intention to make an actual proper marauder :(
RE the Golem/hybrids thing it again comes back to the idea being applied to the wrong ships really - hyperion, maelstrom, rokh and baddon hulls are much more suited to this kind of use. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:13:00 -
[2990] - Quote
Arrendis "It's been suggested that there should be 3 T2 battleship classes - a dedicated PVE hull, a dedicated PVP hull, and a dedicated BlOps hull. Does the dev team have any thoughts on that? Is it a mad, mad thought? If the Marauders were to be the PVE hull in that scenario (which seems like how they'd best be used, since it's where they currently are anyway), what about leaving them largely intact, but adding a single high-slot for a salvager, and giving them a salvage bonus to take back that 'in-mission salvager' role from the Noctis?
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Bastion. More ships with visible transformation animations will always get my attention, but the first thing that has to be asked is: what is this ship supposed to do?"
CCP Ytterbium wrote: "We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having. We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations."
So it's not to late to save these micro jump drive/bastion mod ideas for a new class of T2 heavy battleship (using the Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion and Maelstrom hulls), and make some different changes to Marauders? Have the best of both worlds so to speak. I have to stress this point that in this time of re-balance the remaining battleships the consideration of making a new class of microjump/bastion a class of their own. So as to be able to fit them in with rest of the types. This is the time, 'now'and not later when it's too late and the animations are completed the money spent and and last of the battleship classes are 'balanced it will be far too late to do anything about this proposal. Let the marauders be better at what they are good for IE missions and incursions heck a little better than they are now.
(in here means new) Paladin Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:5% bonus to capacitor capacity and 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level Marauder Skill Bonus:7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems and 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level Role Bonus:100% bonus to large energy weapon damage (T2 Raical Armor Armor Resistances EM50 THR35 KIN62.5 EXP80 Astarte and EOS have T2 Resists and Repper Bonus) org RM50 THR35 KIN34 EXP40 ARMOR 8,200HP SHIELD 6,800HP STRUCTURE 7,300HP Max Velocity 105 m/s RADAR sensor strength (22 points) org 10 Drone Capacity 75 m-¦, Drone Bandwith 75 Mbit/sec or more (or more) (8th high slot total of 4 utility highs) (Role Bonus:500% bonus to tractor beam range and 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity or Marauder Skill Bonus:5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level or Role Bonus: 99% reduction in the powergrid need, 50% reduction in the capacitor need, and 50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Tractor Beams)
Micro Jump/Bastion laserboat on Abbadon hull Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:5% bonus to capacitor capacity, 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range MJ/Bastion Skill Bonus:7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems,5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 12 Radar Signature radius: 420(-80)
Or the new Micro Jump/Bastion laserboat stats: Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level) MJ/Bastion Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400) Shield resists: 0% EM / 87.5% EX / 70% KIN / 20% THERM Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 12 Radar Signature radius: 420(-80)
|
|

Hannyaball Havoyan
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:20:00 -
[2991] - Quote
Deeply disapointed. The rep bonus was 60% of the reson i was happy about the changes, it's what would make the ship effective in the area where it should be: PvE. Enhancing it's tanking capabilities to sustain extended rat fire would be basically the only thing that would really make me like it. Now this bation mode is just a little something in the mix, and we wont be able to move, i'd say it's even worst using it than not using it. |

Kelarc Keld
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:30:00 -
[2992] - Quote
Im actually disappointet with these proposed Marauder changes.
If i look at the amount of skill time and the ISK such a hull costs Bastion has to become a lot stronger and it needs massive damage boost to be worth it at all. Currently you gain a little bit range, a lot of local selftank and ewar immunity and for that you are fixed in position for 60sec. In 0.0 and WH a death sentence. Its simply not worth the tradeoff.
I cant see any reason to go the long way and train for Marauders right now. Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it. |

Dave Stark
3568
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:43:00 -
[2993] - Quote
Kelarc Keld wrote:Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it.
or it just needs to have less drawbacks. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:48:00 -
[2994] - Quote
yeah i dont know if i ever said it before, but among all the rest of this.... i personally dont want to be strong armed into using MJD on this ship.
Reason1: why should it have to use mjd? (via reduced normal speed), why should you want us to? Reason2: i dont want to use an mjd XD Reason3: if you want this to be useful in PVE, most situations make MJDs..... not the best choice. In most of the situations where it would be a good choice would be in sniping or out ranging, which is lower dps than close range, which leads back to it not being as useful in pve, thats just a method to increase your survival which leads to ANOTHER reason why you wouldnt want to use is, because you ALREADY have a good tank, all of this leading back to my reason 2 of i just plain dont want to use an mjd |

Temuken Radzu
Bendebeukers Northern Associates.
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 21:59:00 -
[2995] - Quote
Dont know if this is already proposed, but what if the web bonus is changed on the marauders for the Golem and the Vagur that they get a range bonus and the Kronos and the Paladin keep the strength bonus? |

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:00:00 -
[2996] - Quote
I would like to apologize for my English before the post itself. I'm not a native English speaker, be kind yet feel free to correct me, the faster i learn the lesser i will bother you with bad writing 
I would like to say that i own and use marauders on my PvE pilot (Vargur and Golem) and i have direct feedback and comparison from my brother accounts (Vargur and Paladin + Golem). I do not have any experience with Kronos and Hybrid in general, so i will avoid speaking regard them (that's also mean that no part of my post is related to that ship, since it would had no sense to speak about something i don't know).
First, there are focus complain based on the class name. Sub-cap Industrial ships lack any productivity use, they are hauler, closer to IRL meaning of logistic than industrial. While EvE-Logistic do close to no logistic work at all (even in military sense there are quite distant). So.. not really a point.
Second, PvE-OP-TANK argument: Marauders (as i told, in this post meaning: Golem, Vargur and Paladin) are top of the line generic PVE ship (DPS close to pirate, but sturdier), you can run most content "click target" "position yourself" "Open fire", repeat "wait to 30% defense, pulse until 35% cap" yet fitted mostly T2 (you only need faction booster/repairer and 2/3 damage modules, no bling is really justified as "needed"). The static nature of bastion won't help really much since it's not really needed in "safe" places (LvL4, no blue dock rattling), way too risky in hazardous location (lowsec, anoms, WH) or just a optimistic way to lose your ship in an Incursion "look dude I'm going to local thank them, trust me, I'm an engineer"
Conclusion, PvE related, the first version resist bonus bastion isn't really interesting as much as impractical. The actual version still iterate major drawback from the original, paired with the proposed T2 resist, same story. I'm not much into BS size PvP (Waiting broadcast to press F1 didn't make me any smarter regards BS judgment) so it might be better leaving this field to experienced people.
Some point PvE related, according to me:
- CCP might consider that Marauder skill is very intensive, not very diffused and advertised as PvE "top ship". therefore we are not speaking about "XYrace Battleship" or "XYrace Cruiser", people planned to fly a marauder and invested in a specific training path that lead to a single Ship. "compromising" one of this ships leave little to none alternative (not a multiple ships class as BS o Cruiser, yet not a prerequisite to go further).
- Removing Local repair boost in exchange of T2 hardener might be not enough (maybe some number guru can help us figure it out). How about leaving the old bonus plus T2 hardener by removing the lvl V trained amount from Bastion mode? I really don't like the idea of having a "pit stop" in order to repair my ship, especially in some places..
- Webifiers bonus, always welcome but not needed, also not worth booster amount lost. (i'm not using a webifiers even now)
- Webifiers+Painters on Golem, if i could spare a mid i would put and extra painter, boost bonus is much better.
- Drone bandwidth/Bay... the pve essential on unbonused ships (on the move) are 1 flight of light, 1 flight of salvager, we don't really demand more than 25 bandwidth (yet it would be nice on the Golem) but at least 75 bay should be mandatory for such ships.
- Golem had been the sidekick of other marauders for long, it took a cruise buff and a NPC anti-missiles mass extinction to shine (yes i know there are still pesky anti-missiles out there, they just hide very well, but they aren't many as it used to be), please consider let it be on par (like: 25%optimal + 25% falloff vs. 25% missiles speed...)
- MJD bonus is a nice idea, just don't weight it as full PvE bonus when balancing aspect, actually using and MJD on a marauder just slow you if there is at least one gate (Golem make exception thanks to missiles, sometimes by triangulating your jumps you can get to a gate quite fast).
- Powergrid Boost is a welcome features, but all ships should get at least +10 CPU (new modules fitting requirement)
- Capacitor, it looks like they are going to have slower recharge time but bigger cap? By sheer number i can't tell if it's good or not, but consider that "old" marauder used to pulse very well, close to 2 cycle off 1 on when around the recharge peak.
- Incursion is going to make short work of such ships, marauders were good solo ships (sort of autarchy pve ship) and could be overshadowed in many single aspect from other ships. Ideal Incursion fleet are formed from cherry-picked ships, each one shining in some aspect, having a ship-of-the line whose specialty is deny of logistic help is of little use (yet the new T2 resist can help as a nice filler ship).
|

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
381
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:03:00 -
[2997] - Quote
Thomas Gilmour wrote: So less than current tank, without any speed tank, and BS sized sigs. Yeah. So much for having a role appropriate replacement for Tengus for the Maze.
So much for having a role period, you mean. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4587
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:12:00 -
[2998] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:yeah i dont know if i ever said it before, but among all the rest of this.... i personally dont want to be strong armed into using MJD on this ship.
Reason1: why should it have to use mjd? (via reduced normal speed), why should you want us to? Reason2: i dont want to use an mjd XD Reason3: if you want this to be useful in PVE, most situations make MJDs..... not the best choice. In most of the situations where it would be a good choice would be in sniping or out ranging, which is lower dps than close range, which leads back to it not being as useful in pve, thats just a method to increase your survival which leads to ANOTHER reason why you wouldnt want to use is, because you ALREADY have a good tank, all of this leading back to my reason 2 of i just plain dont want to use an mjd Well, nobody is forcing you to use a MJD.
You might keep in mind that the MJD has become a staple for many mission runners, admittedly usually only for those that are using sentry drones.
However, if you prefer to sit in the thick of it and mix it up at all ranges, you have Bastion mode at your disposal. Just remember that if you are going to fight in Bastion mode, most of your mods will be dedicated to damage and tracking... you won't need much devoted to tank. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4587
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:15:00 -
[2999] - Quote
I'm still leaning towards the base Marauder hull being geared towards long range sniping and MJD use... while the Bastion mode is geared towards close range fighting and heavy tank and tracking. Of course you could always do a combination of the two where you jump to range and snipe all the way in, switching to Bastion mode when they get in your face. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1734
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:25:00 -
[3000] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I'm still leaning towards the base Marauder hull being geared towards long range sniping and MJD use... while the Bastion mode is geared towards close range fighting and heavy tank and tracking. Of course you could always do a combination of the two where you jump to range and snipe all the way in, switching to Bastion mode when they get in your face.
Ditto, Marauder's role should be to be good both at long and short range, meaning standard and bastion stats respectively. On the move, they snipe, on the spot, they facemelt. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
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Stirlsha
Mostly Harmful Pirate Corp Black Core Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:34:00 -
[3001] - Quote
I'm still trying to figure out why a Golem with cruise missiles needs webifier bonuses. I'm not saying that it shouldn't, I'm just lost as to why any thought process would lead to this. For the love of baby Joveus can someone explain it to me? |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
471
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:42:00 -
[3002] - Quote
Stirlsha wrote:I'm still trying to figure out why a Golem with cruise missiles needs webifier bonuses. I'm not saying that it shouldn't, I'm just lost as to why any thought process would lead to this. For the love of baby Joveus can someone explain it to me?
Why would a rail Kronos or Tach paladin...
....they don't either. |

Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:49:00 -
[3003] - Quote
Striscio wrote: First, there are focus complain based on the class name. Sub-cap Industrial ships lack any productivity use, they are hauler, closer to IRL meaning of logistic than industrial. While EvE-Logistic do close to no logistic work at all (even in military sense there are quite distant). So.. not really a point.
It's a recurring problem in EVE, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid point, especially as 'combat' vs 'attack' ships are further attempting to clarify the idea that there's something to these ship-type names.
So, without getting too derailed, how about:
T1 sub-capital haulers - Commercial Vessels. Or Cargo Ships. T2 remote-repair cruisers - Tender Ships. (Since, you know, that's more or less what they are, only in real(ish)-time during combat.)
|

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
473
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:15:00 -
[3004] - Quote
remove the stupid web bonus it is completly unneeded 10-13km web range why would any marauder fight at that short range? for pve it is hardly needed at all for pvp you have buddies to help with webbing
so give them something else smartbomb bonus ?:O +50% dmg/lvl^^ so no frig pilot wants to get close :D
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:21:00 -
[3005] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:remove the stupid web bonus it is completly unneeded 10-13km web range why would any marauder fight at that short range? for pve it is hardly needed at all for pvp you have buddies to help with webbing
so give them something else smartbomb bonus ?:O +50% dmg/lvl^^ so no frig pilot wants to get close :D
The web bonus is more useful against Frigates.
Also having things come within web-range is very common in PvE situations, whether it's missions, incursions, or scan-sites.
Personally I'm not a fan of the web-bonus because it's a tad over-powered against smaller targets compared to a Target Painter or Web-Range bonus. |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
473
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:31:00 -
[3006] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:remove the stupid web bonus it is completly unneeded 10-13km web range why would any marauder fight at that short range? for pve it is hardly needed at all for pvp you have buddies to help with webbing
so give them something else smartbomb bonus ?:O +50% dmg/lvl^^ so no frig pilot wants to get close :D
The web bonus is more useful against Frigates. Also having things come within web-range is very common in PvE situations, whether it's missions, incursions, or scan-sites. Personally I'm not a fan of the web-bonus because it's a tad over-powered against smaller targets compared to a Target Painter or Web-Range bonus. against frigs you have 5 small drones ,and in pve you can easily mjd out and then kill them from range i cant see why do you need web eff bonus at all, is it usefull? yup ,is it needed? nope there are probably a dozen other bonus which would be better suited for these ships
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:41:00 -
[3007] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Kelarc Keld wrote:Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it. or it just needs to have less drawbacks. The drawbacks were worth the advantages when the 30% resists were part of the package in my opinion. |

Maxxor Brutor
Imperial Collective
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:53:00 -
[3008] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote:w/e you do, giving them the same web bonus feels like homogenization. Making them similar in that fashion really takes away from their racial flavor.
This, why not just let the Kronos keep the web bonus and give the others something different?
|

Dave Stark
3571
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:00:00 -
[3009] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Kelarc Keld wrote:Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it. or it just needs to have less drawbacks. The drawbacks were worth the advantages when the 30% resists were part of the package in my opinion.
no it was still a "click here for a 1bn isk+ lossmail" button. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
717
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:21:00 -
[3010] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Kelarc Keld wrote:Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it. or it just needs to have less drawbacks. The drawbacks were worth the advantages when the 30% resists were part of the package in my opinion. no it was still a "click here for a 1bn isk+ lossmail" button. Depends on how you used it. The locking in place being the only real drawback means using it in places that need scanned rather than anoms or belts. With a boost to sensor strength, which it somewhat needs anyways, this should provide you with some time if you are paying attention and don't let another cycle start. |
|

Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax2
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:28:00 -
[3011] - Quote
Through the eyes of a solo lvl 4 mission runner...
Bastion mode
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%:
Nice ! I feel bad for the forum poster who loses a marauder in pve after this, the Forum savages will eat him alive.
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%:
Better damage app, OK good.
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%:
Less wasted ammo is always a plus.
Has a cycle time of 60 seconds:
OK, Timing when to bastion, an when to come out, can make it work most likely. Last npc ship dead and your stuck for the next 59 sec....
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way:
HaHa, sweet death to perma jamming, tracking disruption and sensor damping.
Hull Changes
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level:
Webs, meh, The web range is too short, When a elite frig is close enough two 90% webs are still not enough for large guns on pali to hit , unless a once in a blue-moon lucky shot happens. The 90% webs do help a flight of drones dispatch elite frigs a bit faster. Best off using some other useful module rather than webs.
100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams:
Tractor beams on a marauder are a quality of life improvement, more range plz, does not have to be as good as noctis but just a bit better. Yes Plz.
Reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system:
I need just enough room for a flight of lights an salvage drones.
Increasing their maximum targeting range:
I like it.
70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay:
MJD hopping around sounds ok, give me a ship angle indicator relative to the tactical display and I can plot a two jump move with my needed angle and land right on top of that jumpgate 77km away.
They also are receiving full Tech2 resists:
I can live with that, The Osmon marauder ganking gangs will need to bring a few more tornado's.
As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds:
My Golem is going to make sweet sweet hot sticky luv to you. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:29:00 -
[3012] - Quote
Go to bed features & ideas discussion forum, its late. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:47:00 -
[3013] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Go to bed features & ideas discussion forum, its late. No even though it is almost 2am I am at work and bored.
And the post.
The lock ranges here are not that great given there ability to jump and engage from 100km.
These could be improved on the hulls or this could be another bonus built into the bastion module. 20 to 25 percent would fit quite well with the general range increasing nature of the bastion module. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:54:00 -
[3014] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Go to bed features & ideas discussion forum, its late. No even though it is almost 2am I am at work and bored. And the post. The lock ranges here are not that great given there ability to jump and engage from 100km. These could be improved on the hulls or this could be another bonus built into the bastion module. 20 to 25 percent would fit quite well with the general range increasing nature of the bastion module.
Remember that those are just base lock ranges. A base range of ~90km gives you a bonused range of ~110 km.
Plus ship hulls don't operate in a vacuum. If you need to you can always equip sensor boosting modules. |

Arthur Vega
Tenacious Tendencies
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:12:00 -
[3015] - Quote
I don't even know where to begin. Next to the changes in the leadership bonuses that have completely nerfed the whole point of being a fleet commander, this is the worst change I have seen since I started playing Eve.
If I wanted a Dread, I'd buy a Dread. I use my marauder, as probably most players do, to brun through missions and make isk as quickly as possible and rack up the LP.
You say you don't want them to compete with the pirate battleships. Fair enough, I suppose. But good luck taking your pirate faction BS anywhere but HS or null that your alliance completely controls. Those ships are trophy kills for anyone, and we all know that.
The "original design" for the Marauders, as the OP mentioned, was PvE---so, why the heck does CCP feel the need to change it's role almost completely? I'm not gonna be using a 2B isk ship in PvP.... Sorry, just not worth it. But using it in PvE, I mission burn.
Honestly, I'm getting tired of logging on after an update and not being able to undock becasue a fit I've been using for months, or even longer, is now no longer viable.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
These changes suck. Leave the Marauders alone. They work fine, they do what they were designed to do, and a "mini-siege" mode? Who was smoking what when you thought that was a good idea? That has very little practical use in PvE, and, as the OP mentioned, the timings will still make you an easy target to kill in PvP.
I'm losing drone capacity and bandwidth, I'm losing shield, armor, and hull, and gaining no additional resistance.
Hurray, let's make a great ship suck. Stop messing with the damn game. If you want a bunch a pubescent whiners playing, then go make as space-based WoW.
Arthur (I guess now I'm officially a "bitter-vet" |

Balloq Tiberius
Deep Space Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:16:00 -
[3016] - Quote
First round of ideas were better as the marauders could rep with thier original bonuses regardless of the bastion mod now you need to become a brick just to tank better than a t1 alternative. Also these bonuses are not making the marauders value for money and they will probably never get flown by anyone unless they are a carebear who thinks he can own the world.
P.S The golem having both a web and target painter bonus is a bit useless as you are not going to be solo and in a gang your going to have other stuff to tackle and web for you same for the rest of the marauders. |

ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors Insidious Empire
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:31:00 -
[3017] - Quote
I want to like these changes as the mini siege module and transformation thing sounds incredible fun. However at this time, with this web bonus on ALL the hulls makes it feel like some confused transvestite ship unsure wether it's male or female.
Stuff seems confused. Honestly, i'd relook at the entire concept and rework. |

Just Lilly
119
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:37:00 -
[3018] - Quote
How about some AOE web, with a 50 km reach...
Deploy siege mode and behold the world around you in slow mo X) Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:48:00 -
[3019] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Go to bed features & ideas discussion forum, its late. No even though it is almost 2am I am at work and bored. And the post. The lock ranges here are not that great given there ability to jump and engage from 100km. These could be improved on the hulls or this could be another bonus built into the bastion module. 20 to 25 percent would fit quite well with the general range increasing nature of the bastion module. Remember that those are just base lock ranges. A base range of ~90km gives you a bonused range of ~110 km. Plus ship hulls don't operate in a vacuum. If you need to you can always equip sensor boosting modules. Obviously depending on the direction you jump 110km gives a very narrow window and given the limited mid-slots on the Paladin an Kronos a sensor booster or even a signal amp seems a waste of a slot when it could be factored into the balance if the bastion module. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 01:54:00 -
[3020] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:Obviously depending on the direction you jump 110km gives a very narrow window and given the limited mid-slots on the Paladin an Kronos a sensor booster or even a signal amp seems a waste of a slot when it could be factored into the balance if the bastion module.
Then don't jump in a direction that puts you that far away from targets.
Ships aren't supposed to be complete in and of themselves and 90km base sensor range is the longest of any sub-cap in the game, even sniper hulls like the Rokh and Maelstrom. (90km and 75km respectively)
The two hulls you mention are both armor tanked therefor they have four utility mids to play with for targeting range and other uses. Excluding sniping in Incursions and *very* long range rat spawns (which tend to be between 100 and 120km away, allowing you to aggro the pocket) there is no point where a base targeting range longer than 110km is needed in PvE. |
|

Warlord Cybrid
No Fuhks Given
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:15:00 -
[3021] - Quote
As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
The navy ships are getting almost 2x as much dps and for a faction of the price. Why would i race in a BMW when i can cruise in a jet plane?
If your going to look into them you need to look into the over-all role of the Mara's themselves... are they a PVE/salvager ship? Are they a PVP ship? What exactly ARE THEY?
Once you have that answer rework them to that. -Seems like you guys have no clue what direction you want to go with them except... "oh, lets randomly shoot in the dark and hope we score a hit!"
Honestly i can say ever since the noctis was introduced the role of a marauder is next to useless. Crappy tank, crappy stats, crappy fittings, horrid sensor str. I rather take the 2mins to dock and reship than anything else.
PVP wise... no one but a huge cow that needs isk milking will fly one.
If you want to improve it:
Come up with something TOTALLY FRESH / UNIQUE / AWESOME and worthy of being put into EVE. Giving us a bootleg sub-cap-cap just seems like you guys are really dropping your game and not trying to come up with creative things.
I would imagine this would throw a wrench to the whole thing but this would be interesting to see:
Have marauders play more with the thermodynamics skill i think you guys have such a wonderful door open with thermo dynamics and yet you don't do anything with it.
Maybe apply "secondary effects" when u overload weapons on marauders. (Secondary effects such ass: crazy missile effects / volleys / maybe continuous laser effects / supression fire projectiles etc.... GET CREATIVE YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN KNOWN FOR INVENTING CRAZY **** NOT REWASHING CRAP. -DO WORK! DONT MAKE THIS GAME INTO ALL THE OTHER CRAP OUT THERE.)
Possibly give them reduction on heat or maybe even PASSIVE heat regen/repair to make it even more used in different situations. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:22:00 -
[3022] - Quote
Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:39:00 -
[3023] - Quote
Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:42:00 -
[3024] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve
so you want the dev to custom make a marauder just for your pvp needs and screw the pve players. ya i am sure the dev would really take your point seriously. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:43:00 -
[3025] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder?
easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets
EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 02:47:00 -
[3026] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve so you want the dev to custom make a marauder just for your pvp needs and screw the pve players. ya i am sure the dev would really take your point seriously.
not quite, the pve players have it fine, the old iteration barely touched the old marauder setups bar some buffs here and there, now its being ripped apart, also again not quite, ccp likes to cater to what a ship becomes, this is the role that has seemingly evolved for the vargur |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
719
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:02:00 -
[3027] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship Paladin beats the NApoc and NGeddon in effective turrets., though the latter 2 have 1 more low. Vargur falls well behind the damage potentials of the NTempest and NPhoon admittedly with their capacity for fitting mixed weapons and more lows for damage mods in shield tank setups Kronos has more effective turrets than a NMega but with 1 less lowslot.
The leads are not near enough in most cases to double DPS unless you failfit the marauders. |

Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:04:00 -
[3028] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
What, you're not knocking out the tractor bonus? What possible use is that when we have the glorious Noctis in which to salvage the field? |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:07:00 -
[3029] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. What, you're not knocking out the tractor bonus? What possible use is that when we have the glorious Noctis in which to salvage the field?
salvaging pvp wrecks? javascript:insertsmiley(' ','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_pirate.png') |

Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:10:00 -
[3030] - Quote
I am also hoping that they swap the Paladin's cap amount bonus for tracking. It's already getting a giant increase in base cap and regen, so while cap-stable large reps on a boat without really trying is nice, I think the tracking would be very nice, as it would give excellent viability with beam lasers, specifically Tachyons. The Apoc in general has become very strong in pvp and pve with said tracking bonus, and I see no reason why it shouldn't carry over into its T2 version. |
|

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion LEX LEGIONEM
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:12:00 -
[3031] - Quote
To help make it easier to find discussions on the possible function of a Bastion Module I created a spin off thread here: Bastion Module Workshop Thread
This is NOT an endorsement of the current Murader Re-balance proposal. It's a place to discuss what we could do with this really cool battleship siege module concept.
I know I've been one of the stronger voices against changing muraders from it's current iteration - but this siege module idea really does have some cool potentials. especially if we think outside the box.
^.^
So please, swing on by and contribute! ^.^ -á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:31:00 -
[3032] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship
Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega.
Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each.
Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you  |

luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:36:00 -
[3033] - Quote
I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship. |

Merciful Deletion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:49:00 -
[3034] - Quote
To bad you can't use the tractor beams offensively like a grappling hook or something ,the bonuses seem more fitting for a Battleship sized Interdictor than Mini Dreadnaught. |

Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:56:00 -
[3035] - Quote
Thanks for keeping us updated ^^ |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:57:00 -
[3036] - Quote
luredivino wrote:I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship.
A few problems:
One, this does nothing for missions or any other form of solo PvE.
Two, this turns Marauders into "Dread-blap Junior" where a few support ships can completely negate the penalties.
Three, this introduces DPS power-creep with the pirate-battleships.
These are supposed to be lower DPS higher application, not the other way around. If you want raw DPS go for a Pirate Battleship. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
719
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 03:59:00 -
[3037] - Quote
luredivino wrote:I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship. A 37.5% nerf to tracking would more than cancel out the Kronos' and Vargur's bonus if eve math works for those like it does for ROF increases. It provides an even greater penalty to the paladin and TP stacking on the Golem. All in all it means that likely either people won't use it except at long ranges where the issue of tracking is largely negated or not at all since up close the ability to do damage is nerfed, coincidentally the only time the tank bonus is useful.
While it does create distinction, I'm not sure attaching such a strong disincentive will lead people into the ship. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 04:16:00 -
[3038] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega. Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each. Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you 
was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 04:31:00 -
[3039] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 04:34:00 -
[3040] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range
Care to post a fit on that Vindi? Because the most I've seen is ~2k and that was with 6% implants and faction fittings. I suppose you could do better with Officer gear but we're not balancing against that.
As for Vindi vs Kronos specifically we have 50mbits less bandwidth on the Kronos, but that's a fairly minor loss.
The Kronos has 8 effective turrets with a 25% damage bonus at max level. The Vindicator has 8 actual turrets with a 37.5% damage bonus. The Vindicator does 12.5% more damage than the Kronos, plus 2 unbonused Heavy or Sentry drones.
The fleet-typhoon has 6 of each hardpoint, 8 high slots, and a 7.5% per level damage bonus to both missiles and projectiles. The CNR on the other hand actually has less damage since it has 8 missile hardpoints but no damage bonus, it has range and application bonuses.
Again, please check your numbers before posting. Thank you. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 04:37:00 -
[3041] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega. Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each. Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you  was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range
i see well those high dps is only under certain condition with really terrible damage application and bare mim tank. but when you are talking about mission fits that an average player use that is more suitable for many different types of mission. a marauder and a navy bs has the same dps generally speaking. Also, typhoon lacks missile speed which means you lose many volley much easily just like the navy scorpion. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 04:43:00 -
[3042] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship Which actually does very comparable DPS to the current Kronos on TQ. I'm staring at 1442 on the Kronos with all 5s vs 1486 on the Navy Mega. Saying that they do "almost twice" is an extreme exageration. In reality three of the four have damage bonuses and the forth, the Golem, ends up dead-even for DPS with the Navy Raven at 8 effective turrets and 75mbits of bandwidth each. Please check numbers before posting ridiculous claims, please and thank you  was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range i see well those high dps is only under certain condition with really terrible damage application and bare mim tank. but when you are talking about mission fits that an average player use that is more suitable for many different types of mission. a marauder and a navy bs has the same dps generally speaking. Also, typhoon lacks missile speed which means you lose many volley much easily just like the navy scorpion.
im not saying that the kronos does bad dps, infact it does tonnes, but its a blaster boat, its probably the only marauder that will be negatively impacted by the triage mod, devs should probably boost it in some way, immobile brawling ship is odd, also im almost certain that ccp will revert to the old bastion model due to the all-round nerfs currently happening
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 05:15:00 -
[3043] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:im not saying that the kronos does bad dps, infact it does tonnes, but its a blaster boat, its probably the only marauder that will be negatively impacted by the Bastion mod, devs should probably boost it in some way, immobile brawling ship is odd, also im almost certain that ccp will revert to the old bastion model due to the all-round nerfs currently happening
Check Ytterbium's old post on the first version of the Kronos. ~60km falloff is pretty good DPS with null and means you can even kill battleships orbiting out at 30+km (which are normally a pain to deal with with blasters).
Range bonuses on Blaster ships tend to be really good for this reason because they help mitigate their biggest disadvantage, short range compared to other weapon systems.
Also for missions and incursions you don't tend to move much anyway because it fowls up your tracking. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 05:19:00 -
[3044] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Baal Zann wrote:im not saying that the kronos does bad dps, infact it does tonnes, but its a blaster boat, its probably the only marauder that will be negatively impacted by the Bastion mod, devs should probably boost it in some way, immobile brawling ship is odd, also im almost certain that ccp will revert to the old bastion model due to the all-round nerfs currently happening Check Ytterbium's old post on the first version of the Kronos. ~60km falloff is pretty good DPS with null and means you can even kill battleships orbiting out at 30+km (which are normally a pain to deal with with blasters). Range bonuses on Blaster ships tend to be really good for this reason because they help mitigate their biggest disadvantage, short range compared to other weapon systems. Also for missions and incursions you don't tend to move much anyway because it fowls up your tracking. i guess i can agree with that, neutron dps at 60 kilometres is quite nasty |

TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 05:54:00 -
[3045] - Quote
Any CCP idiotism is rebalancing like this sh*t ? Another dumb changes. and another nail to coffin of Eve. |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 06:40:00 -
[3046] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship
bla Bla BLA. 2k dps on navys is dreamin. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:07:00 -
[3047] - Quote
Vindi
4x Cormaks Mag Stabs 3x W-634 Drone damage amps
8x Cormacks Neutron Blasters (Dread Gurista Antimatter)
Hybrid Burst Aerator T2 rig
5x Ogre II
Surgical Strike SS-906 LHT LH-1006
2691 dps
Now the devs can get out the nerf bat (or the nerf powerline pole) |

dertvader
Luxor Research
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:08:00 -
[3048] - Quote
so these ships are going to be slower than carriers I think I want guns on my freighter
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:09:00 -
[3049] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. This is little better change, still removing taking bonus makes this ship useless for solo pve missions. So i guess i'll be selling my marauders, because other ships are just so much better, even t-1 battleship has better active tank now. For example hyperion has better active tank then paladin or kronos, not to mention sensor strength. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:29:00 -
[3050] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship bla Bla BLA. 2k dps on navys is dreamin. somebodys never seen a torp CNR javascript:insertsmiley(' ','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png') |
|

Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:42:00 -
[3051] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship bla Bla BLA. 2k dps on navys is dreamin. somebodys never seen a torp CNR javascript:insertsmiley('  ','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png')
[Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 1] Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo Estamel's Modified Torpedo Launcher, Dread Guristas Nova Torpedo
Large Bay Loading Accelerator II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Ogre II x3
+6% Torpedo and RoF Imps
= 1933 DPS
and you won't be able to fit any sort of tank on this abomination.
How about facts? |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:43:00 -
[3052] - Quote
dertvader wrote:so these ships are going to be slower than carriers I think I want guns on my freighter
Vargur: 100 m/s Paladin: 85 m/s
Nidhoggur: 90 m/s (and this is the carrier no one uses) Archon: 70 m/s
No. Not slower than carriers for their race.
Also for reference the Nightmare and Rattlesnake both currently have a base-speed of 94 m/s and the Abaddon has a base speed of 89 m/s
Baal Zann wrote:somebodys never seen a torp CNR javascript:insertsmiley('  ','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png')
Torp CNR with All 5s, Scourge Rage Torpedoes, 4 T2 Ballistic Control Systems, and 3 Ogre 2 drones is 1372 DPS.
Have you ever actually looked at the numbers on these things?
The CNR is a great missioning ship, but largely due to its good damage application and projection, not because it's the highest raw DPS option available. For ideal close-range DPS most of the other factions have missiles beat, just not at those ranges because missiles don't have to worry about falloff. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:54:00 -
[3053] - Quote
Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. You're doing exactly the same dps in marauder as in t-1 battleship. Paladin: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Abaddon: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets
Kronos: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Hyperion: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets
Caldari navy raven: 8 launchers Golem: 4 * 100% = 8 launchers
Vargur: 4 * 100% = 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 Maelstrom: 8 + 25%rof = 10.664
You see you do the same damage as t-1 battleship. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
140
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:05:00 -
[3054] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Nidhoggur: 90 m/s (and this is the carrier no one uses) *cries on the inside |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1735
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:17:00 -
[3055] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. This is little better change, still removing taking bonus makes this ship useless for solo pve missions. So i guess i'll be selling my marauders, because other ships are just so much better, even t-1 battleship has better active tank now. For example hyperion has better active tank then paladin or kronos, not to mention sensor strength. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with Bastion. I suggest you make it this way, if bastion module is active, player can not use webifiers and or painters. This will not make webs overpowered. So marauder can only use webs and paints while out of bastion mode eg. Normal mode. This would be perfect, because it will not be overpowered. So keep webing bonus to 10% or 7.5% but don't remove active tanking bonus because this is not good for pve solo missions and i know alot of people using paladin for pve missions. So my suggestion is: While in bastion mode: 1. Remove ability to use webs and painters 2. Remove 7.5% bonus to active repairs while in bastion mode. 3. Keep old bonuses for normal mode operation
Please, turn on your common sense before posting.
When your enemies are at close range and you can web, the thing you really really need is more tank. Shutting down tank for webbers is absurd.
And no matter how you spin it, a close range module is the definiton of uselesness in a long range ship. If they're close enough to web, it's time to MJD away or pull a hell of a fight with additional effective DPS. Specially because you've only got 5 light drones and the new AI loves to pop them. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3338
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:28:00 -
[3056] - Quote
Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Darrien
Red Army Recon SiNTaX err0r
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:34:00 -
[3057] - Quote
At first I thought the loss to active tanking would be bad, but then I ran some tests on a kronos and assuming that Marauders get HAC quality resists, omni tanking only takes a small hit (15-20dps) and generally tanking abillity is actually increased, the only real issue being taking pure damage on your weakest resists, ( which of course your should allow for in your tank anyway ) |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1735
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:45:00 -
[3058] - Quote
Roime wrote:Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.
You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank.  The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:45:00 -
[3059] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Baal Zann wrote:Mer88 wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.
How did you manage to get almost double the dps in a navy BS vs in a marauder? easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship bla Bla BLA. 2k dps on navys is dreamin. somebodys never seen a torp CNR javascript:insertsmiley('  ','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png')
Look, somebody never fitted a Torp CNR outside of EFT. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3338
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:57:00 -
[3060] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.
You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank. 
Yep, armor tankers have the midslot advantage, but the upgraded resists and bastion bonus to reps means that you can tank rats with less slots. 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
|

Crellion
Parental Control
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:07:00 -
[3061] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.
You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank.  Yep, armor tankers have the midslot advantage, but the upgraded resists and bastion bonus to reps means that you can tank rats with less slots.
It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application... |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:14:00 -
[3062] - Quote
True, cruise missiles and torps will benefit quite a bit from a bonused web.
But in missions it's kind of pointless: most ships orbit under 100m/s iirc anyway. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Stirlsha
Mostly Harmful Pirate Corp Black Core Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:18:00 -
[3063] - Quote
Crellion wrote:
It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...
Yeah... I'm kinda coming round to it all now. For cruises the web bonus is useless... but for torps, up close and personal, with the TP bonus too? Golem gonna be an animal.
I'm a bit nervous about losing the armor rep/sheild boost bonuses in non bastion.
But apart from that, I reckon these proposed changes are pretty interesting. |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:24:00 -
[3064] - Quote
honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:26:00 -
[3065] - Quote
Old developing quote "if you want to do something what will be good for anything, it will not excel in anything". I mean, this golem will be like a swiss knife with tiny blades and screwdrivers for any occasion, not a battle knife with fixed blade or screwdriver. 
Bonuses to MJD, webs, nerfed hitpoints, capacitor, you are really making it like a swiss knife. It was PVE ship, and you still want to make it PVP? You nerfed its active ASB tank and resistances for armor, shield and hull in the second variation. This will not work. New CQ prototype |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1736
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:26:00 -
[3066] - Quote
Stirlsha wrote:Crellion wrote:
It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...
Yeah... I'm kinda coming round to it all now. For cruises the web bonus is useless... but for torps, up close and personal, with the TP bonus too? Golem gonna be an animal. I'm a bit nervous about losing the armor rep/sheild boost bonuses in non bastion. But apart from that, I reckon these proposed changes are pretty interesting.
If you bring torps, then all sniping bonus are wasted. MJD wasted and bastion range bonus is wasted. Oh, and remember that you traded your tank for those webbers... maybe you even got rid of the TP, in order to be deadly at 1/3 of your max torpedo range.
It oozes Sense... Non-Sense. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Stirlsha
Mostly Harmful Pirate Corp Black Core Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:33:00 -
[3067] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Stirlsha wrote:Crellion wrote:
It might take a while for non-pvper mission runners to realise the difference a bonused web makes on missile dmg application...
Yeah... I'm kinda coming round to it all now. For cruises the web bonus is useless... but for torps, up close and personal, with the TP bonus too? Golem gonna be an animal. I'm a bit nervous about losing the armor rep/sheild boost bonuses in non bastion. But apart from that, I reckon these proposed changes are pretty interesting. If you bring torps, then all sniping bonus are wasted. MJD wasted and bastion range bonus is wasted. Oh, and remember that you traded your tank for those webbers... maybe you even got rid of the TP, in order to be deadly at 1/3 of your max torpedo range. It oozes Sense... Non-Sense.
Well, like i say, still confused a bit by webs for cruises.
But as i see it in bastion mode you'll have plenty of tank.
Happy to be corrected by fact rather than opinion tho. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3338
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:36:00 -
[3068] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks
So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 10:07:00 -
[3069] - Quote
Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?
The short range guys will have to deal with an awful lot of DPS, since they will be forced to stand still in the middle of the enemies if they want to benefit from the tank bonus. Don't forget that your so-called buffed resists don't apply for any rat type. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
720
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 10:16:00 -
[3070] - Quote
Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod,"
There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply.
The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions.
ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there. |
|

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 10:24:00 -
[3071] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.
Bastion is static too, it means you need at least 60 sec on the spot. Usually not a problem for a Golem but others Marauders need to "dance" around quite a lot for falloff/optimal range (take note that often spawns aren't close enough to use a single bastion standing point) |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3339
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 10:40:00 -
[3072] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.
"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"
And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus. 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Baal Zann
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 10:55:00 -
[3073] - Quote
Roime wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there. "and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough" And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus. im talking pvp not pve, pve it could still be usefull i suppose due to specific resist targets, but in pvp you want omnitank, and even with a bastion mod, thats just not enough due to the removal of the hull specific rep bonus |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 10:56:00 -
[3074] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.
Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. 
|

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:01:00 -
[3075] - Quote
The use for webs in pve is going to be in nullsec anoms, incursions and whs. I still don't like the bonus, it has nothing to do with marauders other than to make them solo station games ships. Marauders should be fleet ships and specialized, not solo active tank pvp mobiles.
Just ditch the webs, they are arbitrary design. Less is more. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
483
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:01:00 -
[3076] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. 
Hell the usual mach has nearly no tank at all |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
720
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:10:00 -
[3077] - Quote
Roime wrote:"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough" I already stated I disagreed with the idea that bastion wouldn't tank enough.
Roime wrote:And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus. And again, only selectively. T2 resists are not universal resist increases. Against EM/Therm the paladin was nerfed. Against Kin/EX The Vargur was nerfed. Kronos/Golem, EM/EX nerf.
The Kronos is fixed in damage type output with rats match it's resist strengths, no loss when used within it's strengths. Paladin has fixed damage types as well, preferring mostly rats which will fire directly into the nerfed portion of it's tank. Vargur/Golem have more damage selectability. Utilizing that advantage means going against damage types to which their tank was nerfed at times.
3/4 cases with potential nerfs rather than gains. It's pretty objectively worse for active tanking looking at overall usage than the repair bonus was. The additional buffer gains are also partially negated by the lower HP frequently present in comparable Navy faction variants offering lower costs. |

Dave Stark
3572
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:11:00 -
[3078] - Quote
The Spod wrote:The use for webs in pve is going to be in nullsec anoms, incursions and whs. I still don't like the bonus, it has nothing to do with marauders other than to make them solo station games ships. Marauders should be fleet ships and specialized, not solo active tank pvp mobiles.
Just ditch the webs, they are arbitrary design. Less is more.
considering vindicators are used in fleets, often for their web bonus, your argument doesn't make much sense. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
720
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:15:00 -
[3079] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses..  The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder? |

Zillu Ban
Dirty Old Bastards Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:24:00 -
[3080] - Quote
To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur.
Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur.
Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting.
The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.
I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.)
Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan?  |
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1507
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 11:26:00 -
[3081] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses..  The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder? I was thinking the same thing.
A few points that I thought of also, the T2 resists were done because some wanted better fleet application for a solo ship. A pirate ship in an incursion fleet usually has a 2~4 slot tank and has no T2 resists at all. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1392
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:00:00 -
[3082] - Quote
Zillu Ban wrote:To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur. Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur. Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting. The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare. I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.) Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan?  Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?
Bad reading comprehension? BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

AskariRising
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:21:00 -
[3083] - Quote
Zillu Ban wrote:To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur. Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur. Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting. The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare. I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.) Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan? 
heavy neut the tackle? |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
497
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:29:00 -
[3084] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?
Bad reading comprehension? Well, it still does have a niche of gringing hisec dickstars (or at least bringing down those arrays so that you can continue grinding with ABCs or something like that) in case you don't have manpower to overwhelm them. I don't know how much that amounts to "structure bashing" though. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3341
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:34:00 -
[3085] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Roime wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there. "and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough" And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus. im talking pvp not pve, pve it could still be usefull i suppose due to specific resist targets, but in pvp you want omnitank, and even with a bastion mod, thats just not enough due to the removal of the hull specific rep bonus
How much do they tank in bastion, and what do you consider "enough" tank for "pvp"? Solo Oneiros amount? Pair of Guards? Dozen triage Archon? Dual XLASB Mael? Triple rep Hype?
Just trying to figure out what you mean, and if it's based on actual numbers.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
355
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:41:00 -
[3086] - Quote
Zillu Ban wrote:The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.
Let me clarify the situation for you : Is the target within 13km ? - yes : web and kill ; MJD out. - no : MJD out.
These things will have the best subcap tank, and rival the best subcap firepower, and that's without bastion. With MJD, they have a very good mobility, either to go in or out of a field of battle, whatever the range they need, because the web bonus allow to pin down anything and melt it in seconds if it come too close.
These things will be very hard to kill I'm afraid, without a good fleet. Or maybe it's a stealth Keres buff ? |

AskariRising
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:42:00 -
[3087] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
why the sudden change of mind regarding making marauders super tanked BS's? |

Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1174
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:44:00 -
[3088] - Quote
Roime wrote: "and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"
And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.
The confusion you have is that he's referring to the first iteration of this proposal which was; Keep the rep bonus of the current live-on-TQ hulls When in bastion, add 100% rep amount AND 30% resists
he is not referring to the currently live Marauder.
Now you have: No rep bonus (ie; 37.5% less reps than the live Marauder) Webs (yay) When in bastion, add 100% rep amount T2 resists (as pointed out elsewhere, not universal in any way, and have glaring holes)
So. You go from Current Live: 1.375 reppers effective, deal with it. Iteration 1: 1.375 reppers out of Bastion, and 2.75 reppers in Bastion, plus 30% free resists Iteration 2: 1 repper out of Bastion, 2 reppers in bastion, and slightly better resists vs SOME rats.
Your point, and others have made this too, that you can fill resist holes with a 2 slot tank is fair. You won't have to spend all your mids on a Vargur to attain a mid-range tank. Just 2. Leaving one for the MJD, one for a web, and presumably one for a shield booster, one for a cap booster (or if mad enough, a disruptor). Sounds fine. Except you're losing a 37.5% repair bonus for spotty resists, so you are no further ahead.
True, you can pick and choose your rats. You can blink out to range and turtle up for extra pwnage. But compared to Iteration 1, the current Iteration 2 proposal strips you of the base 37.5% repair bonus and leaves you with almost no fitting options. This is sub-optimal for emergent gameplay.
Realistically, CCP Ytterbium, CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie should have realised the 30% resist bonus was a bridge too far, and trimmed it back to 12.5% across the board resists, or indeed, none at all. The idea of 2.75 effective reppers with no special resist bonuses is enough to get me excited about bringing a Marauder to PVP in small gang situations, with solid tactics and solid intel. That alone would be around 1900-3200 DPS tank depending on bling factor.
That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:57:00 -
[3089] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses..  The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder?
I wouldn't fly a marauder because of tank - I would fly it because of it's damage application. That's why I still use the CNR over a golem, although I do have Marauders V. Damage application is almost the same, so why change? Because of the tank I don't need anyway? Sure. |

marVLs
400
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 12:58:00 -
[3090] - Quote
Do we get completely new ship models?
Just redone?
Or maybe not even touched?
How complicated animation will be? |
|

Zillu Ban
Dirty Old Bastards Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:01:00 -
[3091] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?
Bad reading comprehension?
Sorry, I may not have made it clear. I was saying that the Marauder would have a niche so small people most likely won't even bother training for them. I was comparing it to the dread, which has the 2 purposes of structure and capital bashing.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:04:00 -
[3092] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Do we get completely new ship models?
Just redone?
Or maybe not even touched?
How complicated animation will be? This id love to know. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:12:00 -
[3093] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Let me clarify the situation for you : Is the target within 13km ? - yes : web and kill ; MJD out. - no : MJD out.
These things will have the best subcap tank, and rival the best subcap firepower, and that's without bastion. With MJD, they have a very good mobility, either to go in or out of a field of battle, whatever the range they need, because the web bonus allow to pin down anything and melt it in seconds if it come too close.
These things will be very hard to kill I'm afraid, without a good fleet. Or maybe it's a stealth Keres buff ?
and in what eve world there is even slightest chance that you can execute either of those options?
99.9% there will be another factor that neglects whole "new" marauder bastion stuff and it ends up being "warp warp warp warp fast safespot plzplzplzplz warp nauuuuuu!"
in theory it's cool situational story bro |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3342
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:13:00 -
[3094] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.
They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now.
I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits.
T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
483
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:26:00 -
[3095] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses..  The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder?
My exact point earlier
Make the maraders slightly toned down pirate BSs......
problem. solved. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:36:00 -
[3096] - Quote
What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag) and as such will have lots of wrecks to clean up. If the MJD is used to any extent the wrecks might be widely spread(100+km). I know a lot of posters in this threadnought either want the tractor bonus expanded to be useful or eliminated altogether.
Proponents of tractor beam bonus elimination have stated that have a 2nd ship (noctis) is the way it's done. Using a 2nd account or going back for the 2nd ship adds more time to missions for sure. I use salvage drones myself. Maybe they believe cutting a bonus they don't want frees up room for one they do want? Personally my 2nd account started off as a noctis driver. After a awhile I came to realize that I still can't safely run a lvl4 and salvage at the same time. Having your single account have to go and get your noctis to come back and salvage/loot adds half again more time to each mission. Dual boxing with 2 accounts running a mission and salvaging on the other can be done but not all of us have the set up for that. Adding the 4th high slot to the marauders as part of re-balancing them gives us a chance to see if expanding the salvaging/tractor beam bonus might be for the greater good. As the fastest way to salvage would be on the fly as you are making wrecks. (Role Bonus:500% bonus to tractor beam range and 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity(orca) 100km or Marauder Skill Bonus:5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level (noctis) 96km @ lvl5 or Role Bonus: 99% reduction in the powergrid need, 50% reduction in the capacitor need, and 50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Tractor Beams. They are able to fit Cap Tracks due to significant reductions in the powergrid, CPU and capacitor requirements for these mods.750pg,55cpu,100JG cap(like tier 3 BCs) 200km
Please consider these options as the bonus and it stands now is weak and needs a buff. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3344
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:41:00 -
[3097] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag)
Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals?
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:49:00 -
[3098] - Quote
Roime wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag) Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals?
The caps I can't say as I don't fly em, but the rest do a lot of pve and your point?
|

NextDarkKnight
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:55:00 -
[3099] - Quote
Wait, So if I am to understand this correctly.. The v2 changes require you to have the new module fitted to the ship? I would still like consideration for a small drone bay only when the new module is fitted so players have CHOICE of how they want to fit there ship out. Won't removing the boost rate hurt people not using the module to the point of the ship not being a option? |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3344
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:57:00 -
[3100] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Roime wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag) Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals? The caps I can't say as I don't fly em, but the rest do a lot of pve and your point?
That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1741
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:59:00 -
[3101] - Quote
Roime wrote:Trinkets friend wrote: That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.
They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now. I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits. T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications.
Close range fits for a ship with MJD and extended range bonus? And then sacrifice tank for that "short range effectiveness"? The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:07:00 -
[3102] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Trinkets friend wrote: That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.
They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now. I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits. T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications. Close range fits for a ship with MJD and extended range bonus? And then sacrifice tank for that "short range effectiveness"?
I would say Long-Range fits with the option to effectively brawl, and suddenly, it all makes sense, doesn't it? |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3344
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:10:00 -
[3103] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Close range fits for a ship with MJD and extended range bonus? And then sacrifice tank for that "short range effectiveness"?
Yep, MJD that can be used after each bastion cycle allows you to instantly blink to the next spawn, and the extended range extends the effective range of brawler fits. You have better tank due to the resists and bonuses, which allows you to fit a web. And it doesn't affect the tank or armor marauders.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:13:00 -
[3104] - Quote
Roime wrote:That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
wowowowowowo wooooooooooooooo... I can get 2,5 random T3 ships for 1.1bil you better check market before posting. |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:18:00 -
[3105] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Trinkets friend wrote: That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.
They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now. I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits. T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications. Close range fits for a ship with MJD and extended range bonus? And then sacrifice tank for that "short range effectiveness"? I would say Long-Range fits with the option to effectively brawl, and suddenly, it all makes sense, doesn't it? Only for half the marauders it does. Kronos and Paladin have viable close range fits. Golem torp fits are downright crap in comparison to a Kronos short range fit. Golem with cruise is really the best way to go and only way less you are "special".A Kronos short range fit out ranges Golem torp fit. Less they make substantial changes to the missiles launcher weapons systems via xxx buff modification. If you are brawling with a long range fit you are doing it wrong anyway and should lose your ship for using ill advised tactics not for ill advised pvp rebalance of your ship. Torps need to be improved otherwise a web bonus goes to waste on the Golem and the bonus out to be an explosion velocity one instead of webs to have the same desired effect but actually being of some help. |

TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:22:00 -
[3106] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. You're doing exactly the same dps in marauder as in t-1 battleship. Paladin: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Abaddon: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Kronos: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Hyperion: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Caldari navy raven: 8 launchers Golem: 4 * 100% = 8 launchers Vargur: 4 * 100% = 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 Maelstrom: 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 You see you do the same damage as t-1 battleship.
My favored maraduer stats is, their ridiculous low sensor strenghts. 11 for Vargur ? :P Megalol Nice PVP stat for dumbs.
"We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well." ROTFL
But now the new idiotism of CCP, create bastion modules for them aka. Siege mode:
" When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec"
This is the new ISK sinking idea ? Easy targets for SBs and fast billions sinking to refuse bin? Bravo, the CCP can suprise me with their new and new dumb ideas.
|

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3344
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:23:00 -
[3107] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Roime wrote:That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
wowowowowowo wooooooooooooooo... I can get 2,5 random T3 ships for 1.1bil you better check market before posting.
wowoowowowoowowoooooo common T3 PVP fits cost 1-1.2bil
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:28:00 -
[3108] - Quote
Roime wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Roime wrote:That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
wowowowowowo wooooooooooooooo... I can get 2,5 random T3 ships for 1.1bil you better check market before posting. wowoowowowoowowoooooo common T3 PVP fits cost 1-1.2bil
showme
and then show me same cheap marauder pvp viable fit
and dont forget tons of more expensive rigs |

Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:30:00 -
[3109] - Quote
TravelBuoy wrote:Spc One wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. You're doing exactly the same dps in marauder as in t-1 battleship. Paladin: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Abaddon: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Kronos: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Hyperion: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Caldari navy raven: 8 launchers Golem: 4 * 100% = 8 launchers Vargur: 4 * 100% = 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 Maelstrom: 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 You see you do the same damage as t-1 battleship. My favored maraduer stats is, their ridiculous low sensor strenghts. 11 for Vargur ? :P Megalol Nice PVP stat for dumbs. "We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well." ROTFL But now the new idiotism of CCP, create bastion modules for them aka. Siege mode: " When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec" This is the new ISK sinking idea ? Easy targets for SBs and fast billions sinking to refuse bin? Bravo, the CCP can suprise me with their new and new dumb ideas. Yeah I agree regardless of whether bastion mode makes you immune to e-war creating such a heavily unbalanced sensor strength was the main reason they don't see much PVP action in the first place. Unless the ships are given base T1 sensor strengths which would make some sense. Yeah the factions all decided to create a ship that will fight behind enemy lines yet not be able to fire cause they can't lock a damn target. I'm sure someone will come along and make some humorous yet spot on of the marauder back story in the description.
|

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3344
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:31:00 -
[3110] - Quote
wowowowoowowwooo 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
|

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:34:00 -
[3111] - Quote
Nano Quantum wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Trinkets friend wrote: That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.
They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now. I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits. T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications. Close range fits for a ship with MJD and extended range bonus? And then sacrifice tank for that "short range effectiveness"? I would say Long-Range fits with the option to effectively brawl, and suddenly, it all makes sense, doesn't it? Only for half the marauders it does. Kronos and Paladin have viable close range fits. Golem torp fits are downright crap in comparison to a Kronos short range fit. Golem with cruise is really the best way to go and only way less you are "special".A Kronos short range fit out ranges Golem torp fit. Less they make substantial changes to the missiles launcher weapons systems via xxx buff modification. If you are brawling with a long range fit you are doing it wrong anyway and should lose your ship for using ill advised tactics not for ill advised pvp rebalance of your ship. Torps need to be improved otherwise a web bonus goes to waste on the Golem and the bonus out to be an explosion velocity one instead of webs to have the same desired effect but actually being of some help.
Don't know if you have noticed that close range turrets can reach amazing distances in bastion, and with bastion, it's not so unlikely that you will end up in close range situations - that's where the MJD shines. If you're pointed, get rid of it with webs..
Yes, the Torp-Golem is kinda crappy with these changes, but still - Javelins will reach excessive range for torps too.
Thus, marauders are actually valid longe-range plattforms with these changes, even in close combat situations. Can't see why it's so hard to see the concept..
Snipe aslong as you can, tank a heavy beating if someone comes close, kill the point and MJD away. AND yes, this is a nice concept imho. It allmost looks like a solo pwn-mobile with solid counters (ECM drones (LOL) and neuts/Alpha).
|

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:35:00 -
[3112] - Quote
Roime wrote:wowowowoowowwooo
You know it? :D |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:36:00 -
[3113] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Yes, the Torp-Golem is kinda crappy with these changes, but still - Javelins will reach excessive range for torps too.
there is no reason to use javelin torp over simple T2 cruise. Sadly. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
497
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:37:00 -
[3114] - Quote
Zillu Ban wrote:Sorry, I may not have made it clear. I was saying that the Marauder would have a niche so small people most likely won't even bother training for them. I was comparing it to the dread, which has the 2 purposes of structure and capital bashing. Dreads are used against anything given proper web support.
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:showme Just check out WH killboards. The point is not that marauders are going to be cheaper, the point is that 1+ bil price tag won't stop anyone if the thing in question is really good for some given environement.
TravelBuoy wrote:This is the new ISK sinking idea ? Easy targets for SBs and fast billions sinking to refuse bin? Bravo, the CCP can suprise me with their new and new dumb ideas. Tell me how this can sink any ISK and not mode it to people who produce ships. Unless CCP secretly seed them at the markets 
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:there is no reason to use javelin torp over simple T2 cruise. Sadly. Well, you don't swap launchers on the fly. Other than that, I see your point. |

marVLs
400
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:49:00 -
[3115] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Yes, the Torp-Golem is kinda crappy with these changes, but still - Javelins will reach excessive range for torps too. there is no reason to use javelin torp over simple T2 cruise. Sadly.
That's why i would like to change Golem bonuses only for torps
At least 20% per level torps velo
It's really bad that to match even not enough range You must fit all rigs with velo rigs... Not even in bastion range will be satisfied...
Someone can say: so use cruise missiles. True, they're awesome right now, but torps need love, they're used only on bombers, and only because that's forced.
Maybe if CCP is planning to bring to us missile mods like tracking computers, then change TP bonus for that missile tracking computer thing bonus ;) |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 14:52:00 -
[3116] - Quote
marVLs wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Yes, the Torp-Golem is kinda crappy with these changes, but still - Javelins will reach excessive range for torps too. there is no reason to use javelin torp over simple T2 cruise. Sadly. That's why i would like to change Golem bonuses only for torps At least 20% per level torps velo It's really bad that to match even not enough range You must fit all rigs with velo rigs... Not even in bastion range will be satisfied... Someone can say: so use cruise missiles. True, they're awesome right now, but torps need love, they're used only on bombers, and only because that's forced. Maybe if CCP is planning to bring to us missile mods like tracking computers, then change TP bonus for that missile tracking computer thing bonus ;)
well, CCP Rise gave us a hint on new modules for missiles - let's wait what those will do.
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1507
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:13:00 -
[3117] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one
What happened to this? It would seem as this progresses people want there PVP role to be more and more predominant. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:20:00 -
[3118] - Quote
what about removing the web bonus and give a 10% target painter bonus per level instead? a BS shouldnt even use a web because it is so slow to get close to anyone in the first place. A target painter give you so much more range and helps tracking so much better. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:20:00 -
[3119] - Quote
Why not roll the web bonus into the Sebastian module, but make it a range bonus. This way you can give a rep bonus back to the marauders, but instead of doing rep amount bonus why not provide a 7.5% nanite usage bonus for AAR's and a 6% cap booster capacity bonus to ASB's? Keeping the 100% bonus in Sebastian mode. Combined with a proper T2 resist profile you give players a reason to still use normal reps, but give them a good advantage when using charged reps. |

TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:31:00 -
[3120] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:TravelBuoy wrote:This is the new ISK sinking idea ? Easy targets for SBs and fast billions sinking to refuse bin? Bravo, the CCP can suprise me with their new and new dumb ideas. Tell me how this can sink any ISK and not mode it to people who produce ships. Unless CCP secretly seed them at the markets 
Easy to say, go with this ship to pvping and when you lost an over 1billions value of ship u will see, which is the fast ISK sink and how can lost easier your money. It is no coincidence that why CCP removed the plus tanking and resist abilities. |
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:38:00 -
[3121] - Quote
Roime wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:Roime wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag) Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals? The caps I can't say as I don't fly em, but the rest do a lot of pve and your point? That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
Conceded the price alone has little to do with how a class is used. Thanks for missing the main point of my post Captian Oblivious. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
382
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:39:00 -
[3122] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one
What happened to this? It would seem as this progresses people want there PVP role to be more and more predominant.
It seems so. But at the same time, Marauders being slow, plodding, extremely unagile and often completely stationary active tankers is not going to promote their presence in PvP at all. |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3249
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:44:00 -
[3123] - Quote
If I could throw away 1bil for a pvp hull, marauders would be the last place I would do that. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:54:00 -
[3124] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Why not roll the web bonus into the Sebastian module, but make it a range bonus. This way you can give a rep bonus back to the marauders, but instead of doing rep amount bonus why not provide a 7.5% nanite usage bonus for AAR's and a 6% cap booster capacity bonus to ASB's? Keeping the 100% bonus in Sebastian mode. Combined with a proper T2 resist profile you give players a reason to still use normal reps, but give them a good advantage when using charged reps.
*Just thought I should add that this would give AAR's 11 cycles and ASB's 12 cycles.
most people dont use AAR or ASB for pve that bonus seems to specific forcing people to use such module for defence |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 15:54:00 -
[3125] - Quote
Darrien wrote:At first I thought the loss to active tanking would be bad, but then I ran some tests on a kronos and assuming that Marauders get HAC quality resists, omni tanking only takes a small hit (15-20dps) and generally tanking abillity is actually increased, the only real issue being taking pure damage on your weakest resists, ( which of course your should allow for in your tank anyway )
The problem is that the majority of mission damage is Kin/Therm which means the Golem and Kronos get a buff against most mission rats while the Vargur and Paladin only really get a buff against their racial enemy's mission rats and navy. Overall they would be better off with the local repair bonus than the resists or webs.
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses.. 
Generally they rely on lowering the incoming DPS before their tank fails through raw DPS and solid damage application.
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The hilarious thing is that people who point out the pirate ship's tanks are really only emphasizing how bad these marauder proposals are. Tanks is the only thing Marauders have going for them and now that is getting nerfed on the base hulls. I mean, lets be serious, given this proposal who wants to actually trade their pirate BS for a Marauder? I was thinking the same thing.
A few points that I thought of also, the T2 resists were done because some wanted better fleet application for a solo ship. A pirate ship in an incursion fleet usually has a 2~4 slot tank and has no T2 resists at all.[/quote]
Funny thing about that, the Pirate Battleships actually have this weird and out-of-place 10% bonus to a racially associated armor resist. It makes no sense but it's been there for years. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
335
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 16:41:00 -
[3126] - Quote
Guys, the whole argument about tanking rats is moot.
A single rep domi can do it with a DC, EANMx2 and a RAH - by no means an optimal anti-rat resistance setup.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 16:49:00 -
[3127] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:Why not roll the web bonus into the Sebastian module, but make it a range bonus. This way you can give a rep bonus back to the marauders, but instead of doing rep amount bonus why not provide a 7.5% nanite usage bonus for AAR's and a 6% cap booster capacity bonus to ASB's? Keeping the 100% bonus in Sebastian mode. Combined with a proper T2 resist profile you give players a reason to still use normal reps, but give them a good advantage when using charged reps.
*Just thought I should add that this would give AAR's 11 cycles and ASB's 12 cycles. most people dont use AAR or ASB for pve that bonus seems to specific forcing people to use such module for defence
With a proper T2 resist profile you can use normal reps more effectively than you can with the current rep amount bonus, because you're gaining an extra ~60% bonus in total resists. Giving a bonus to AAR's/ASB's gives players the option of having longer boosted reps. However, it doesn't make normal reps useless in PvP or PvE because you will still have the 60 second reload time to take into account. There's also the option to give a 5-7.5% bonus to reload time for boosted reps as well and it still wouldn't mean that using normal reps is a bad idea. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 16:50:00 -
[3128] - Quote
Cade Windstalker what am I missing here? Base resists for a Paladin are in game EM50 EX40 KIN34.3 THR35 and the T2 resists are Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM. The T2 seam a lot better or the same in the case of thermal. What's everyones the beef with the t2 resists over the ingame resists? Saying they are weaker now? Just trying to keep up here. Are they talking the loss of the 7.5% rep bonus compaired to T2 resists? Or in bastion mode whatever? And why not have the T2resists and the rep 7.5% bonus when not in siege mode. Bastion have it's own tanking bonus for the ship stats.
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1741
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 16:58:00 -
[3129] - Quote
marVLs wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Yes, the Torp-Golem is kinda crappy with these changes, but still - Javelins will reach excessive range for torps too. there is no reason to use javelin torp over simple T2 cruise. Sadly. That's why i would like to change Golem bonuses only for torps At least 20% per level torps velo It's really bad that to match even not enough range You must fit all rigs with velo rigs... Not even in bastion range will be satisfied... Someone can say: so use cruise missiles. True, they're awesome right now, but torps need love, they're used only on bombers, and only because that's forced. Maybe if CCP is planning to bring to us missile mods like tracking computers, then change TP bonus for that missile tracking computer thing bonus ;)
Golem 101: your range is determined by your fit and can't be changed on the fly.
Bonusing torpedoes for brawling means you won't be using cruises, so you just wasted every long range bonus, notoriously the MJD bonus.
My first suggestion was to bonus explosion radius -that would give a kick to Precision cruise missiles, which are going to be your primary anti-frig weapon anyways. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:11:00 -
[3130] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Generally they rely on lowering the incoming DPS before their tank fails through raw DPS and solid damage application.
*note to myself*: don't use the piwate next time... |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:16:00 -
[3131] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Guys, the whole argument about tanking rats is moot.
A single rep domi can do it with a DC, EANMx2 and a RAH - by no means an optimal anti-rat resistance setup.
No so much when you're jumping into Worlds Collide or the last pocket of an Extravaganza.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:With a proper T2 resist profile you can use normal reps more effectively than you can with the current rep amount bonus, because you're gaining an extra ~60% bonus in total resists. Giving a bonus to AAR's/ASB's gives players the option of having longer boosted reps. However, it doesn't make normal reps useless in PvP or PvE because you will still have the 60 second reload time to take into account. There's also the option to give a 5-7.5% bonus to reload time for boosted reps as well and it still wouldn't mean that using normal reps is a bad idea.
MBizon Osis wrote:Cade Windstalker what am I missing here? Base resists for a Paladin are in game EM50 EX40 KIN34.3 THR35 and the T2 resists are Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM. The T2 seam a lot better or the same in the case of thermal. What's everyones the beef with the t2 resists over the ingame resists? Saying they are weaker now? Just trying to keep up here. Are they talking the loss of the 7.5% rep bonus compaired to T2 resists? Or in bastion mode whatever? And why not have the T2resists and the rep 7.5% bonus when not in siege mode. Bastion have it's own tanking bonus for the ship stats.
Okay, responding to both of these together since it comes down to the same problem.
This is a handy cheat sheet for pirate damage types, and this is a more thorough listing for all the various NPCs including faction navies. (please note, I do not advocate for the former since it says Blood Raiders use ECM but says nothing about Guristas)
A quick glance over either or both of these shows that every single NPC group in the game does anywhere between a little and a ton of thermal and/or kinetic damage. Many in-fact only deal thermal and kinetic damage or deal so much of either or both that resistances to anything else are a foot-note.
This means that any ships innately bonused to resist Thermal and Kinetic damage are at an advantage for mission running since the majority of factions deal thermal and/or kinetic damage, with only the Angels, Sansha (mission rats only), Blood Raiders, and high level Rogue Drones dealing significant amounts of other damage types. However it's worth noting that two out of the four of these, Sansha and Blood Raiders, deal almost half their damage as Thermal and the remaining two deal about 20% of theirs as Kinetic meaning that a bonus to either resist is helpful.
The Gallente and Caldari T2 hulls both get bonuses to Kinetic and Thermal with the Caldari getting more of a Thermal buff and the Gallente favoring Kinetic due to Caldari missiles but still gaining some thermal due to Railgun damage from some Caldari ships.
For contrast the Minmattar gain primarily EM with a small thermal buff and the Amarr gain Explosive and a little Kinetic damage.
Now lets look at the "damage to deal" column of these mission rats for why Amarr and Minmattar have a bit of a problem and then get back to the resists issue in a minute.
Assuming you're declining Empire Faction-kill missions we'll just be looking at pirate damage since factions pretty much mirror the associated pirate faction group.
Amarr lasers deal EM and Thermal and the best damage to deal against Blood Raiders and Sansha is EM and Thermal, so to maximize the effects of the Paladin's damage you're best off fighting in Amarr space. Unfortunately your resist bonus does absolutely nothing for you in this regard since these rats do no Explosive or Kinetic damage. You're doing great against Rogue Drones but these missions are randomly scattered to all empire agents, can't be blitzed effectively in most cases, and don't provide loot and only provide mediocre salvage (the two main reasons to use a Marauder).
For Minmattar you get a bonus to EM damage and a small bonus to Thermal. Unfortunately your racial rats, the Angels, deal primarily Explosive with a little Kinetic and that EM bonus is only going to help you on one particular mission with Battleship that slings EM torpedoes. (I'm fairly certain this guy is responsible for all 5% of the Angel's EM profile). The secondary rats for the Minmattar are Serpentis but you're still only getting a small bonus to Thermal resists and half their damage is Kinetic anyway. If you want to move and mission against someone else you can at least make better use of the Thermal bonus and select damage type to some extent, but you're still coming up short compared to fighting someone you inherently do well against for damage and your T2 ammo is forced Explosive/Kinetic.
The Gallente and Caldari on the other hand can make use of at least half their resist bonus anywhere and all of it against Guristas, Serpentis, EoM, and perhaps most importantly Mercenaries.
Overall this just leaves the Kronos and Golem in a vastly better position than the Vargur and Paladin for mission tanking. They can fit less tank and have to make zero trade-offs to do so in who they fight when looking at effective tanking vs effective damage dealing. More importantly it least them in a worse position than they are in on TQ currently for these situations. |

Jonas Valence
Black Rise Escape Hatch Zero Hour Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:20:00 -
[3132] - Quote
Didnt notice this in the posts, but I had a question about the Bastion Module. The dev post states an immunity to ewar. Is this across the board, as ive been reading up on HICs and noticed the scripted disruptor bypasses ewar immunity. |

Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
492
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:21:00 -
[3133] - Quote
TravelBuoy wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:TravelBuoy wrote:This is the new ISK sinking idea ? Easy targets for SBs and fast billions sinking to refuse bin? Bravo, the CCP can suprise me with their new and new dumb ideas. Tell me how this can sink any ISK and not mode it to people who produce ships. Unless CCP secretly seed them at the markets  Easy to say, go with this ship to pvping and when you lost an over 1billions value of ship u will see, which is the fast ISK sink and how can lost easier your money. It is no coincidence that why CCP removed the plus tanking and resist abilities. The full stationary marauder idea its a stupidity, easy prey for SBs and the users why would to use their easy destructable, high values unuseable ships on battlefronts ? If they want to make to "PVP compatibility" make lower marauder prices, boost their sensor strenght, because their strenght is ridiculous in present days and would be same without bastion mode too, give to them special bonuses, not this crap bastionary idiotism, where the ships stand at battlefront with 0m/s and easy prey for concentrated attacks. The capital ships can die very fast in battle with much better HP in siege mode like as a BS and their prices not realy higher than a marauder. A kronos is 1.1b such as Archon. Is the isk paid for that Kronos gone from the game or has it only changed hands? Do you know what an "isk sink" is? Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:22:00 -
[3134] - Quote
Golem FIX
250% torp max velocity, -250% flight time. 100% cruise max velocity, -100% flight time.
Suddenly this ship got fixed and is now useful for incursions and a bit more in pvp.
golem does not need any explo rad/vel buff, it is good as is... |

Dave Stark
3575
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:25:00 -
[3135] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Golem FIX
250% torp max velocity, -250% flight time. 100% cruise max velocity, -100% flight time.
Suddenly this ship got fixed and is now useful for incursions and a bit more in pvp.
golem does not need any explo rad/vel buff, it is good as is...
i'm not convinced you understand how percentages work....
torps with negative flight time, and cruise missiles with 0 flight time? |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:26:00 -
[3136] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Golem FIX
250% torp max velocity, -250% flight time. 100% cruise max velocity, -100% flight time.
Suddenly this ship got fixed and is now useful for incursions and a bit more in pvp.
golem does not need any explo rad/vel buff, it is good as is... i'm not convinced you understand how percentages work.... torps with negative flight time, and cruise missiles with 0 flight time?
anyway my point is that range gets to be same as now. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
336
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:39:00 -
[3137] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Guys, the whole argument about tanking rats is moot.
A single rep domi can do it with a DC, EANMx2 and a RAH - by no means an optimal anti-rat resistance setup.
No so much when you're jumping into Worlds Collide or the last pocket of an Extravaganza.
Haven't tried the last room of AA recently, but certainly world's collide is very easy with that domi. I did it just after the odyessy 1.1 release to try out the effects of the LAR buff.
It's helpful to fit medium blasters for WC, or a MJD. As a side note, I found it's better to stick 250mm rails on a domi than 350mm rails - it gives about the same DPS but leaves a lot more flexibility for fitting.
large rails are looking a bit crap compared to meds now...
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Sal Awat
Emphatically Unaffiliated Industries
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:43:00 -
[3138] - Quote
I've sort of been lurking in the thread, and there seems to be a definite shape forming around the space people are expecting the Marauder to fill.
The predominant use cases revolve as I see it around the following:
A) Mobility: Not in the can turn on a dime sense, but more in the realm of "can find a way to get just about anywhere when flown right". You pop up, you do your thing, and you've got the tools to make yourself scarce once you've scored hot, sweet spoils.
B)Staying power: This is a ship that asks for no quarter, and expects none to be given. It wasn't built with the mindset that "I'm going to have support!" It was built with "I'm alone, in unfriendly territory, and I'm going to eke every last second I possibly can out of it."
C)Entrenchability: This is a ship that is expected to have the odds heavily weighed against it (i.e. bastion module), and as a result has been designed with the goal in mind of being able to fight in the worst of circumstances (immobile, jammed, scrammed) and deal as much damage as possible until either honorabru death or victorious tactical retreat is possible.
With those in mind, the only thing that's really sticking out as non sequitur to me is the web bonuses. While I understand the PvP applications of them, I see it as just taking away from the package in a degree. I could sort of see it as a web range bonus, but the problem is more that the hull's bonuses are making a very great number of decisions for you. In a way. It says
"Hey! Put tractor beams on me! ...and a Bastion Module! Target painter too! (in the Golem's case) And a Webber!"
But what this kinda makes me thinks of is the Marauder should be slotted to fill a Tech 3 slot? I know that for the Winter expansion, that may be asking for a bit much. But the sheer amount that's trying to be baked into a Tech 2 hull just SCREAMS for tech 3 customization.
So for the interim, I say consider dropping the webber bonus on the hulls that it doesn't really fit on (Golem for instance) and tailor the bonuses along the three lines above.
And consider at some point, moving the Marauder from a Tech 2 specialization to full on Tech 3 battleship deliciousness. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:43:00 -
[3139] - Quote
Jonas Valence wrote:Didnt notice this in the posts, but I had a question about the Bastion Module. The dev post states an immunity to ewar. Is this across the board, as ive been reading up on HICs and noticed the scripted disruptor bypasses ewar immunity. That's worth an answer.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:46:00 -
[3140] - Quote
Jonas Valence wrote:Didnt notice this in the posts, but I had a question about the Bastion Module. The dev post states an immunity to ewar. Is this across the board, as ive been reading up on HICs and noticed the scripted disruptor bypasses ewar immunity.
Doesn't matter, you can't warp or move while you're in Bastion anyway so a scripted HIC isn't doing anything to you that you aren't already doing to yourself.
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Haven't tried the last room of AA recently, but certainly world's collide is very easy with that domi. I did it just after the odyessy 1.1 release to try out the effects of the LAR buff.
It's helpful to fit medium blasters for WC, or a MJD. As a side note, I found it's better to stick 250mm rails on a domi than 350mm rails - it gives about the same DPS but leaves a lot more flexibility for fitting.
large rails are looking a bit crap compared to meds now...
Yes, but you're tanking with a MJD more than you are with the repair module. Part of my point about having a large tanking bonus should be the option to actually use it to tank as opposed to being forced to jump off at range where the bonus is only needed a very tiny fraction of the time and generally because you screwed up somewhere. |
|

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:48:00 -
[3141] - Quote
Base resists for a Paladin are in game EM50 EX40 KIN34.3 THR35 and the T2 resists are Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM. Not seing a down side to the T2 resists here.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1392
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:48:00 -
[3142] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:If I could throw away 1bil for a pvp hull, marauders would be the last place I would do that.
With the proposed stats it would be just about the best value you could get for your bil. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:49:00 -
[3143] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:With a proper T2 resist profile you can use normal reps more effectively than you can with the current rep amount bonus, because you're gaining an extra ~60% bonus in total resists. Giving a bonus to AAR's/ASB's gives players the option of having longer boosted reps. However, it doesn't make normal reps useless in PvP or PvE because you will still have the 60 second reload time to take into account. There's also the option to give a 5-7.5% bonus to reload time for boosted reps as well and it still wouldn't mean that using normal reps is a bad idea. MBizon Osis wrote:Cade Windstalker what am I missing here? Base resists for a Paladin are in game EM50 EX40 KIN34.3 THR35 and the T2 resists are Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM. The T2 seam a lot better or the same in the case of thermal. What's everyones the beef with the t2 resists over the ingame resists? Saying they are weaker now? Just trying to keep up here. Are they talking the loss of the 7.5% rep bonus compaired to T2 resists? Or in bastion mode whatever? And why not have the T2resists and the rep 7.5% bonus when not in siege mode. Bastion have it's own tanking bonus for the ship stats.
Okay, responding to both of these together since it comes down to the same problem. [/u]
From the OP...
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
It's not unreasonable to expect that in some areas the ship will be nerfed slightly so that the overall design goal can be reached. Especially considering that this design goal is to make them more viable in PvP. Likewise, there is no reason why the ships have to use the standard racial T2 resist profile either. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1392
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:55:00 -
[3144] - Quote
Zillu Ban wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: Bastion doesn't have a damage bonus, why would you use these for structure bashing?
Bad reading comprehension?
Sorry, I may not have made it clear. I was saying that the Marauder would have a niche so small people most likely won't even bother training for them. I was comparing it to the dread, which has the 2 purposes of structure and capital bashing.
Yes because a ship with 3-400k ehp, t2 res, 3xMJD and four utility highs clearly won't be used by anyone.............. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 17:56:00 -
[3145] - Quote
Sal Awat wrote:I've sort of been lurking in the thread, and there seems to be a definite shape forming around the space people are expecting the Marauder to fill.
The predominant use cases revolve as I see it around the following:
A) Mobility: Not in the can turn on a dime sense, but more in the realm of "can find a way to get just about anywhere when flown right". You pop up, you do your thing, and you've got the tools to make yourself scarce once you've scored hot, sweet spoils.
B)Staying power: This is a ship that asks for no quarter, and expects none to be given. It wasn't built with the mindset that "I'm going to have support!" It was built with "I'm alone, in unfriendly territory, and I'm going to eke every last second I possibly can out of it."
C)Entrenchability: This is a ship that is expected to have the odds heavily weighed against it (i.e. bastion module), and as a result has been designed with the goal in mind of being able to fight in the worst of circumstances (immobile, jammed, scrammed) and deal as much damage as possible until either honorabru death or victorious tactical retreat is possible.
With those in mind, the only thing that's really sticking out as non sequitur to me is the web bonuses. While I understand the PvP applications of them, I see it as just taking away from the package in a degree. I could sort of see it as a web range bonus, but the problem is more that the hull's bonuses are making a very great number of decisions for you. In a way. It says
"Hey! Put tractor beams on me! ...and a Bastion Module! Target painter too! (in the Golem's case) And a Webber!"
But what this kinda makes me thinks of is the Marauder should be slotted to fill a Tech 3 slot? I know that for the Winter expansion, that may be asking for a bit much. But the sheer amount that's trying to be baked into a Tech 2 hull just SCREAMS for tech 3 customization.
So for the interim, I say consider dropping the webber bonus on the hulls that it doesn't really fit on (Golem for instance) and tailor the bonuses along the three lines above.
And consider at some point, moving the Marauder from a Tech 2 specialization to full on Tech 3 battleship deliciousness.
I agree mostly with your points about the hull making a few too many fitting decisions for you, also about the web bonus but for slightly different reasons (which I have stated enough times already).
I also roughly agree that you are correct about what various separate groups seem to want the hull to be. That said, I don't think they're all going to come away happy.
For a start the odds of a T2 Battleship hull being deployed without any support in a PvP environment are monstrously small. This isn't to say it won't ever happen, this is to point out that the hull would likely have to be ridiculously over-powered in almost every respect in order for this to be seen as a practical option for any statistically meaningful number of pilots, let alone the average Joe-Lowsec PvPer.
You are also forgetting that this is a mission ship currently first and foremost and to remove that capability from it would be a slap in the face of everyone who's already trained to use the ship for that purpose (I wouldn't say it's much of a stretch to say that this is the majority of pilots currently flying these ships)
I also recall either Soundwave or another designer saying when the T3s were released that they were never going to do a T3 Battleship. Personally, with where T3 Cruisers stand right now I hope they stick to this. Maybe after a rebalance of the existing T3s but as things stand that would be horrifically imbalanced. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:05:00 -
[3146] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Base resists for a Paladin are in game EM50 EX40 KIN34.3 THR35 and the T2 resists are Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM. Not seing a down side to the T2 resists here.
For PvP sure, the problem is that these are primarily PvE ships at the moment...
Wolfgang Achari wrote:It's not unreasonable to expect that in some areas the ship will be nerfed slightly so that the overall design goal can be reached. Especially considering that this design goal is to make them more viable in PvP. Likewise, there is no reason why the ships have to use the standard racial T2 resist profile either.
and making them less viable for PvE than Navy or Pirate battleships would shoot their primary competency in the foot.
I certainly agree with Ytterbium that designing for a specific niche is not good way to design for an emergent game like Eve. However, it's also important not to invalidate months of training time when there are available solutions that meet the stated design goals without doing so.
I am not arguing against T2 resists on the ships, though I am a little worried about the potential EHP values such resists could provide, I am saying that T2 resists do not replace the local repair bonus if your intent with the ships is any sort of Mission or Scan-Site based PvE activity.
Yes, Bastion provides an excellent local repair bonus, but I would prefer not to see the hulls inextricably tied to the module the same way Dreadnaughts are tied to their Siege Module. I'd rather be given a choice other than "Fit Bastion for Missions" or "Train a pirate battleship"  |

Warlord Cybrid
No Fuhks Given
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:06:00 -
[3147] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. You're doing exactly the same dps in marauder as in t-1 battleship. Paladin: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Abaddon: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Kronos: 4 turrets *100% = 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Hyperion: 8 turrets + 25% = 10 turrets Caldari navy raven: 8 launchers Golem: 4 * 100% = 8 launchers Vargur: 4 * 100% = 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 Maelstrom: 8 + 25%rof = 10.664 You see you do the same damage as t-1 battleship.
Yes, now tell me why i should buy a marauder since you answered it yourself. LOL!
Again you just pointed out that navy ships while less SP intensive are still performing the same as a skill intensive ship. :)
Why would i pay 400-500mil more for the same effect? I rather put that towards a second navy ship of another race and add some flavor to my gameplay.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:10:00 -
[3148] - Quote
Warlord Cybrid wrote:Yes, now tell me why i should buy a marauder since you answered it yourself. LOL!
Again you just pointed out that navy ships while less SP intensive are still performing the same as a skill intensive ship. :)
Why would i pay 400-500mil more for the same effect? I rather put that towards a second navy ship of another race and add some flavor to my gameplay.
Because raw DPS isn't everything. How effectively you can apply that DPS often matters more than the total DPS number. For reference see trying to swat an ABing cruiser in a Battleship  |

Warlord Cybrid
No Fuhks Given
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:13:00 -
[3149] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:Yes, now tell me why i should buy a marauder since you answered it yourself. LOL!
Again you just pointed out that navy ships while less SP intensive are still performing the same as a skill intensive ship. :)
Why would i pay 400-500mil more for the same effect? I rather put that towards a second navy ship of another race and add some flavor to my gameplay. Because raw DPS isn't everything. How effectively you can apply that DPS often matters more than the total DPS number. For reference see trying to swat an ABing cruiser in a Battleship 
luckily for me my gf plays a very good rapier pilot so i guess i must be spoiled in that department. again i rather lose a navy ship than a mara :) but i prefer bang for buck since i rather stay in the game longer than have to ragequit over isk issues. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:18:00 -
[3150] - Quote
Warlord Cybrid wrote:luckily for me my gf plays a very good rapier pilot so i guess i must be spoiled in that department. again i rather lose a navy ship than a mara :) but i prefer bang for buck since i rather stay in the game longer than have to ragequit over isk issues.
I sort of assumed you were talking about PvE. Most people don't even take Navy Battleships into PvP |
|

Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics K162
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:26:00 -
[3151] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker... i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer. In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field. I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are... cool thing about the interdiction feild is that the mjd will still work. so yes i will be using these quite often in stain doing lev iv missions. also for pve i more then likely will not have a tsb on but for pvp i will. if you think you can find me by all means. and honestly i dont mind loosing a mid slot. if it means i will survive. i would envision PL taking advantage of these ships... Titan Brige them in... go into siege and proceed to kill everything. how much can a kronos tank anyways with a LAAR and faction tank? i would bet a bunch.
No large nullsec entity is going to use them. Make a fleet doctrine comprising of 1bil isk+ ships? No way. Capitals don't count because they can't be volleyed barring a DD. Active tanking in large fleets is absolutely pointless.
All I see for these things now is station ornaments. It gives "ewar immunity" but you're essentially pointed and 100% webbed while it's active. It's going to get neuted out immediately and then attempt to apply it's overwhelmingly subpar dps. It's still going to struggle to hit cruisers and below. I can see it now, fleet of 4 caracals kill marauder because it can't tank or hit them.
This is such a monumental waste of man power for CCP. You're producing a crap ship that has no advantages over ships that already exist. Who in their right mind would buy one of these instead of a mach or a vindi or nightmare? At least with those you can do high sec incursions and make more isk than you do doing plexes/anoms/level 4's.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1392
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:30:00 -
[3152] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:luckily for me my gf plays a very good rapier pilot so i guess i must be spoiled in that department. again i rather lose a navy ship than a mara :) but i prefer bang for buck since i rather stay in the game longer than have to ragequit over isk issues. I sort of assumed you were talking about PvE. Most people don't even take Navy Battleships into PvP
A lot of people do. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Warlord Cybrid
No Fuhks Given
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:30:00 -
[3153] - Quote
Quote:
No large nullsec entity is going to use them. Make a fleet doctrine comprising of 1bil isk+ ships? No way. Capitals don't count because they can't be volleyed barring a DD. Active tanking in large fleets is absolutely pointless.
All I see for these things now is station ornaments. It gives "ewar immunity" but you're essentially pointed and 100% webbed while it's active. It's going to get neuted out immediately and then attempt to apply it's overwhelmingly subpar dps. It's still going to struggle to hit cruisers and below. I can see it now, fleet of 4 caracals kill marauder because it can't tank or hit them.
This is such a monumental waste of man power for CCP. You're producing a crap ship that has no advantages over ships that already exist. Who in their right mind would buy one of these instead of a mach or a vindi or nightmare? At least with those you can do high sec incursions and make more isk than you do doing plexes/anoms/level 4's.
You can name the fleet doctrine.... "COWFLEET" aka: "isk cows that need milking" |

Warlord Cybrid
No Fuhks Given
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:32:00 -
[3154] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Warlord Cybrid wrote:luckily for me my gf plays a very good rapier pilot so i guess i must be spoiled in that department. again i rather lose a navy ship than a mara :) but i prefer bang for buck since i rather stay in the game longer than have to ragequit over isk issues. I sort of assumed you were talking about PvE. Most people don't even take Navy Battleships into PvP
with the new mineral changes etc.. etc... blah blah blah the difference between t1 to navy is almost begging the user to go with a navy ship for a small isk investment into it compared to the regular t1 (this is barring the navy raven/scorp ofcourse since they seem to just keep going higher and higher but then again i don't use missiles in PVP.) |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:54:00 -
[3155] - Quote
Mr Ignitious wrote:No large nullsec entity is going to use them. Make a fleet doctrine comprising of 1bil isk+ ships? No way. Capitals don't count because they can't be volleyed barring a DD. Active tanking in large fleets is absolutely pointless.
All I see for these things now is station ornaments. It gives "ewar immunity" but you're essentially pointed and 100% webbed while it's active. It's going to get neuted out immediately and then attempt to apply it's overwhelmingly subpar dps. It's still going to struggle to hit cruisers and below. I can see it now, fleet of 4 caracals kill marauder because it can't tank or hit them.
This is such a monumental waste of man power for CCP. You're producing a crap ship that has no advantages over ships that already exist. Who in their right mind would buy one of these instead of a mach or a vindi or nightmare? At least with those you can do high sec incursions and make more isk than you do doing plexes/anoms/level 4's.
We had this discussion about... 70 pages or so back?
The two counters to this are the T3 fleets which ran about 1bil per hull with fittings back when they first started up and at one point a null-sec fleet was running Navy Tempests and only stopped because the fleet doctrine was too easy to counter.
It's not that Null can't afford to run these expensive ships if it's worth it, it's that it's not worth it. If you make a ship good enough they'll use masses of them no matter what the cost. The biggest barrier for Marauders is training time but even that's not too bad compared to swapping to another race's battleship.
Also you can definitely alpha a carrier or dread with Battleships, you just need a lot of them. Null has a *lot* of Battleships. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 18:56:00 -
[3156] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:Base resists for a Paladin are in game EM50 EX40 KIN34.3 THR35 and the T2 resists are Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM. Not seing a down side to the T2 resists here.
For PvP sure, the problem is that these are primarily PvE ships at the moment... Wolfgang Achari wrote:It's not unreasonable to expect that in some areas the ship will be nerfed slightly so that the overall design goal can be reached. Especially considering that this design goal is to make them more viable in PvP. Likewise, there is no reason why the ships have to use the standard racial T2 resist profile either. and making them less viable for PvE than Navy or Pirate battleships would shoot their primary competency in the foot. I certainly agree with Ytterbium that designing for a specific niche is not good way to design for an emergent game like Eve. However, it's also important not to invalidate months of training time when there are available solutions that meet the stated design goals without doing so. I am not arguing against T2 resists on the ships, though I am a little worried about the potential EHP values such resists could provide, I am saying that T2 resists do not replace the local repair bonus if your intent with the ships is any sort of Mission or Scan-Site based PvE activity. Yes, Bastion provides an excellent local repair bonus, but I would prefer not to see the hulls inextricably tied to the module the same way Dreadnaughts are tied to their Siege Module. I'd rather be given a choice other than "Fit Bastion for Missions" or "Train a pirate battleship" 
Correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been a while since I've done missions, but last I checked you don't need a 1000dps tank to solo L4 missions. The few places you do need a greater tank than that are meant to be run by multiple people/accounts anyways. Likewise, T1 resists are more than adequate to run the ships respective racial missions without issue. This truly isn't as big of an issue as many people are making it out to be. After all, remote repping isn't the only reason resist bonuses were nerfed recently. ;) |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 19:19:00 -
[3157] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been a while since I've done missions, but last I checked you don't need a 1000dps tank to solo L4 missions. The few places you do need a greater tank than that are meant to be run by multiple people/accounts anyways. Likewise, T1 resists are more than adequate to run the ships respective racial missions without issue. This truly isn't as big of an issue as many people are making it out to be. After all, remote repping isn't the only reason resist bonuses were nerfed recently. ;)
all lvl4-s are doable with very little tank and if you use MJD then in half cases you even dont need to tank at all. |

hellcane
Never Back Down
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 19:41:00 -
[3158] - Quote
3-400 omni tank with 1k DPS can clear any mission without warping, unless you are stupid with it |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1507
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 20:09:00 -
[3159] - Quote
hellcane wrote:3-400 omni tank with 1k DPS can clear any mission without warping, unless you are stupid with it Now if you will kindly move your attention to high end cosmic signatures you will notice a substantial increase in the tank needed. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Wizzard117
Viziam Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 20:10:00 -
[3160] - Quote
How to rebalance marauders, Wizz style ^^
Version 1
Role: specialized to work under "unsafe" conditions. Can do stuff in PvE due to damage application bonuses.
Role bonus: 100% to damage 25% damage absorbed by overheating modules 25% reduction to nanite paste consumption while repairing modules 20% bonus to modules repair speed while using nanite paste
Racial BS skill bonuses (both indirect damage application of primary weapon system) +7.5% expl radius +7.5% expl velocity or +7.5% tracking speed to respective turret type +5% faloff and optimal
Marauders skill bonuses +7.5% primary tanking type boost amount +5% bonus to overheated module primary effect * *Non-overheated AB gives for example 200m/s, overheated 250, overheated with Marauders5 200+(250-200)*(1+0.05*5) = 262.5
Fits into: survivability in hostile space. Requires a careful selection of what to overheat and when thus requires high piloting skills. t2 resist profile and repair bonus, making it imba sustainable tank, but intentionally left prone to alpha
CCP, tell me u just didn't said u have not enough imagination ^^ |
|

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 20:51:00 -
[3161] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Golem FIX
250% torp max velocity, -250% flight time. 100% cruise max velocity, -100% flight time.
Suddenly this ship got fixed and is now useful for incursions and a bit more in pvp.
golem does not need any explo rad/vel buff, it is good as is... While the percentages are a little whack, this basically was my thoughts on the buff to all large missile range ala the proposed Bastion Module.
I understand that a buff to Cruises will help with instant-application and no wasted volleys, it is already 80+km without rig adjusts, and max range is practically grid range anyway. All a velocity bonus does is attempt to make missiles into slow moving gunnery turret ammo.
Whereas with torps, 45km is a generous range (I've been hit and miss at a range of 40km), so a 25% bonus falls into the "meh" category. Probably around 50ish kilometres on paper, so 45km in game, ironically what it says I should be getting now.
If anything, mayhaps a bonus to cruise explosion radius/bonus to torp velocity.
As an aside, is there anyway we can JUST focus on the hulls? The Bastion module when activated could remove, modify or override any inherent hull bonus anyway right? Why noy focus just on the current hulls, perhaps each hull having their own thread, and THEN we can hash out the Bastion after? I want Starblazers meets Macross as much as the next person, but I'd much rather focus on what I know I have in hand, rather than a pile of variables. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
142
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 20:53:00 -
[3162] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:hellcane wrote:3-400 omni tank with 1k DPS can clear any mission without warping, unless you are stupid with it Now if you will kindly move your attention to high end cosmic signatures you will notice a substantial increase in the tank needed. I think you need to say it a little louder, nobody seems to see the implications of this. Especially since you're now out-tanking almost every subcap PVE ship with all of their bling, with just a single module. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 21:08:00 -
[3163] - Quote
Wizzard117 wrote:How to rebalance marauders, Wizz style ^^
Version 1
Role: specialized to work under "unsafe" conditions. Can do stuff in PvE due to damage application bonuses.
Role bonus: 100% to damage 25% damage absorbed by overheating modules 25% reduction to nanite paste consumption while repairing modules 20% bonus to modules repair speed while using nanite paste
Racial BS skill bonuses (both indirect damage application of primary weapon system) +7.5% expl radius +7.5% expl velocity or +7.5% tracking speed to respective turret type +5% faloff and optimal
Marauders skill bonuses +7.5% primary tanking type boost amount +5% bonus to overheated module primary effect * *Non-overheated AB gives for example 200m/s, overheated 250, overheated with Marauders5 200+(250-200)*(1+0.05*5) = 262.5
Fits into: survivability in hostile space. Requires a careful selection of what to overheat and when thus requires high piloting skills. t2 resist profile and repair bonus, making it imba sustainable tank, but intentionally left prone to alpha
CCP, tell me u just didn't said u have not enough imagination ^^ I like this , but I doubt itl fly If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 21:20:00 -
[3164] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:hellcane wrote:3-400 omni tank with 1k DPS can clear any mission without warping, unless you are stupid with it Now if you will kindly move your attention to high end cosmic signatures you will notice a substantial increase in the tank needed. I think you need to say it a little louder, nobody seems to see the implications of this. Especially since you're now out-tanking almost every subcap PVE ship with all of their bling, with just a single module. I'm pretty shure that's why this thread has Soo much interest If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Sal Awat
Emphatically Unaffiliated Industries
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 22:14:00 -
[3165] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:I agree mostly with your points about the hull making a few too many fitting decisions for you, also about the web bonus but for slightly different reasons (which I have stated enough times already). I also roughly agree that you are correct about what various separate groups seem to want the hull to be. That said, I don't think they're all going to come away happy. For a start the odds of a T2 Battleship hull being deployed without any support in a PvP environment are monstrously small. This isn't to say it won't ever happen, this is to point out that the hull would likely have to be ridiculously over-powered in almost every respect in order for this to be seen as a practical option for any statistically meaningful number of pilots, let alone the average Joe-Lowsec PvPer. You are also forgetting that this is a mission ship currently first and foremost and to remove that capability from it would be a slap in the face of everyone who's already trained to use the ship for that purpose (I wouldn't say it's much of a stretch to say that this is the majority of pilots currently flying these ships) I also recall either Soundwave or another designer saying when the T3s were released that they were never going to do a T3 Battleship. Personally, with where T3 Cruisers stand right now I hope they stick to this. Maybe after a rebalance of the existing T3s but as things stand that would be horrifically imbalanced.
Didn't know about the Tier 3 bits. Thanks for the info.
In regards to its current role as a pve pimpmobile? I don't see why it can't still be just as functional In regards to its performance in PvE. All the necessary pieces are still pretty much there, (though the loss of the tank bonus from the hull seems a bit disenfranchising in this regard.)
But as far as bringing it into the worth risking arena, I can still see ways that it can be balanced. For instance, if you take into account the fact its a ship designed with minimal support in mind, and its furthermore a Tech II specialized hull, its not that far out of the question to expect that it would get decreased benefit from warfare links in return for its huge innate tank and damage. Not enough to completely negate its use in a small gang/skirmish environment, but enough to make it not completely overshadow everything else.
I personally still see many ways that the unsupported battleship paradigm can be effectively implemented. T2 implies specialization. Specialization implies a constrained problemspace. Thusly, the hull should not be able to benefit as much from design forces outside of that design space.
My .02 isk at least. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
156
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 22:39:00 -
[3166] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been a while since I've done missions, but last I checked you don't need a 1000dps tank to solo L4 missions. The few places you do need a greater tank than that are meant to be run by multiple people/accounts anyways. Likewise, T1 resists are more than adequate to run the ships respective racial missions without issue. This truly isn't as big of an issue as many people are making it out to be. After all, remote repping isn't the only reason resist bonuses were nerfed recently. ;)
Depends on the ship and the weapon systems. The greater the ship's innate ability to tank the more you can focus on other things like damage application and projection and the less tank you actually have to bring. Being able to perma-tank a mission is quite a nice luxury if you can't lower incoming DPS fast enough. Plus it's pretty fun watching ~1k of mission DPS splash off your tank with no red showing.
For reference if you fail to bring down incoming DPS there are Level 4 missions that do 1k DPS, give or take a little.
As for Level 5 missions, yes those are meant to be run by multiple people, however people figured out ages ago how to run them solo in a few select fits so they haven't really been serious multi-person content for years.
Sal Awat wrote:Didn't know about the Tier 3 bits. Thanks for the info.
In regards to its current role as a pve pimpmobile? I don't see why it can't still be just as functional In regards to its performance in PvE. All the necessary pieces are still pretty much there, (though the loss of the tank bonus from the hull seems a bit disenfranchising in this regard.)
But as far as bringing it into the worth risking arena, I can still see ways that it can be balanced. For instance, if you take into account the fact its a ship designed with minimal support in mind, and its furthermore a Tech II specialized hull, its not that far out of the question to expect that it would get decreased benefit from warfare links in return for its huge innate tank and damage. Not enough to completely negate its use in a small gang/skirmish environment, but enough to make it not completely overshadow everything else.
I personally still see many ways that the unsupported battleship paradigm can be effectively implemented. T2 implies specialization. Specialization implies a constrained problemspace. Thusly, the hull should not be able to benefit as much from design forces outside of that design space.
My .02 isk at least.
Yup, about half my point is the loss of the tank bonus sucks for everyone currently missioning in one of these.
As for the whole warfare links idea, no. Having warfare links randomly not apply partly to a single ship class is unintuitive and bad balancing. If the ship needs such a specific nerf to remain "balanced" it probably isn't balanced for any situation where the enemy doesn't have that advantage.
For reference some warfare links don't affect capital ships in certain ways. If you asked the average player which ones I'd bet most of them would get it wrong 
As for what I was actually talking about when I said it would likely be OP, I mean that for most people to view them as cost effective they would have to be almost guaranteed to win or otherwise come back with their ship intact about five out of six times compared to a fifty fifty shot on a T1 Battleship, since that's about how much these hulls cost compared to a T1 Battleship.
Since this would essentially require these hulls to be 2-3 times better than a T1 battleship and I don't see that happening I don't think those people are going to be satisfied. Most of them seem to want Battleship sized HACs anyway, and that would be power-creep of the worst sort. The only reason the existing HACs lived through their rebalance is because they had enough history and existing uses that they couldn't justify completely changing them. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 22:58:00 -
[3167] - Quote
Wizzard117 wrote:How to rebalance marauders, Wizz style ^^
Version 1
Role: specialized to work under "unsafe" conditions. Can do stuff in PvE due to damage application bonuses.
Role bonus: 100% to damage 25% damage absorbed by overheating modules 25% reduction to nanite paste consumption while repairing modules 20% bonus to modules repair speed while using nanite paste
Racial BS skill bonuses (both indirect damage application of primary weapon system) +7.5% expl radius +7.5% expl velocity or +7.5% tracking speed to respective turret type +5% faloff and optimal
Marauders skill bonuses +7.5% primary tanking type boost amount +5% bonus to overheated module primary effect * *Non-overheated AB gives for example 200m/s, overheated 250, overheated with Marauders5 200+(250-200)*(1+0.05*5) = 262.5
Fits into: survivability in hostile space. Requires a careful selection of what to overheat and when thus requires high piloting skills. t2 resist profile and repair bonus, making it imba sustainable tank, but intentionally left prone to alpha
CCP, tell me u just didn't said u have not enough imagination ^^
Terrible for pve no trator beams? why would pves would fly a marauder if you cant have the bonus tractor beams? the navy version is better in every way. i believe most people who flys marauder today are for pve anyways
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 23:05:00 -
[3168] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:We had this discussion about... 70 pages or so back?
The two counters to this are the T3 fleets which ran about 1bil per hull with fittings back when they first started up and at one point a null-sec fleet was running Navy Tempests and only stopped because the fleet doctrine was too easy to counter.
It's not that Null can't afford to run these expensive ships if it's worth it, it's that it's not worth it. If you make a ship good enough they'll use masses of them no matter what the cost. The biggest barrier for Marauders is training time but even that's not too bad compared to swapping to another race's battleship.
Also you can definitely alpha a carrier or dread with Battleships, you just need a lot of them. Null has a *lot* of Battleships.
I've pointed it out before, but the skill requirements completely rule Marauders out as a possible large-scale fleet doctrine. It doesn't matter how strong they're made, you simply will never get enough pilots to fly even a 100-man fleet of them.
Lets say you want to make a Vargur fleet. According to eveboard, 14% of active players have Marauders trained and 19.3% are Minmatar pilots. That means, in a 10000 man alliance, you only have 270 potential Vargur pilots. Some of them will not have T2 large guns trained, so they're out. Of the maybe 200 potentials left, you now have to get enough of them to log on at once, join a fleet, and actually be able to afford a Marauder.
Quite simply, it will never ever work, no matter how overpowered the ship happens to be. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
337
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 23:21:00 -
[3169] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: Quite simply, it will never ever work, no matter how overpowered the ship happens to be.
If you build it OP enough, they will come...
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 23:29:00 -
[3170] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:I've pointed it out before, but the skill requirements completely rule Marauders out as a possible large-scale fleet doctrine. It doesn't matter how strong they're made, you simply will never get enough pilots to fly even a 100-man fleet of them.
Lets say you want to make a Vargur fleet. According to eveboard, 14% of active players have Marauders trained and 19.3% are Minmatar pilots. That means, in a 10000 man alliance, you only have 270 potential Vargur pilots. Some of them will not have T2 large guns trained, so they're out. Of the maybe 200 potentials left, you now have to get enough of them to log on at once, join a fleet, and actually be able to afford a Marauder.
Quite simply, it will never ever work, no matter how overpowered the ship happens to be.
You don't need a 100 man fleet of them, you just need a core of players trained into and flying them. Doesn't even need T2 large guns.
If you make something OP enough you will see people train for it. Yeah it'll take them one to two months to roll out the first fleets but they can definitely afford it and if it means winning pilots will train them.
I would also like to point out that Eve Board is only tracking a small fraction of pilots in the game. We know there are around 500,000 active accounts in the game and looking at data from the last published Quarterly Economic Report shows that there are around 2 characters per account. This means that Eve Board is tracking only around 7.8% of active pilots, and since it doesn't represent a random sampling (you have to volunteer to give it your character data) it's probably not a statistically valid source anyway, meaning the actual proportion of people able to fly Marauders or close to doing so could be much higher or lower. |
|

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
824
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 23:47:00 -
[3171] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hey guys
Wanted to just drop and in and say that we're keeping up on feedback and appreciate all the input. We will probably slow down a bit here and look to wait awhile before sharing a new iteration with you. We want to do process a lot of the feedback, do some testing internally and have some more dialogue in the department and after that we'll come back here.
We're definitely running into some problems where these ships are showing potential for a wide range of applications which can lead to balance concerns for some things and obviously can lead to frustration about the ships not being strong enough for others. We want them to be awesome, just like you, and by the time winter comes I think we'll be in a good place.
In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
I posted a couple of ideas for this re-balance, too big to fit inside the 5000 characters limit of a post, so here is the link.
http://thelazypilot.wordpress.com/2013/09/06/constructive/
its just one more idea. Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 00:11:00 -
[3172] - Quote
So, couple of gripes with your post.
For a start you claim that CCP didn't anticipate how changing this ship would be viewed by the player base. Since their first iteration changed it very little, and the response on their second proposal from the PvE crowd that actually uses the thing has been echoing Ytterbium with "we don't need webs thanks but no" it's pretty clear that they do understand that people, even if it's not a majority, do use these ships for PvE.
Second, you reference the "real world" definition of "Marauder". Ship balancing by dictionary is bad policy. By the real world definition of "Marauder" any ship could be classified as one. Now looking at your points:
- I'm going to (more or less) ignore the "remove the cool new bonuses" bit because that's down to personal preference. Personally I like the idea of deploying battleships.
- The web bonus is only very marginally useful to PvE and is mostly used for swatting smaller ships in PvP making them more or less ineffective against any ship with such a bonus.
- Light Drones! But then what's the point of the web bonus?
- Adding a salvage bonus treads a little too heavily on the toes of the Noctis. This is supposed to be a viable option, not a replacement to the Noctis.
- "Spider Tanking god-battleship" is, I think, still a concern. Just waving a magic wand over the hull and removing all its old downsides just turns it into a Battleship sized HAC.
- The problem with the T2 resists vs the repair bonus is that they both benefit PvE, just different types. T2 resists are better for Incursions and Wormholes, a local repair bonus is better for Missions and Scan-sites.
As to the whole "make a new line of ships" argument, you do know the CSM have already seen at least rough passes of Bastion, right? Plus the first pass of Bastion was rather well received by the PvE community, it was the people who want this ship to be far better than it was going to be for PvP that objected. (aka the same crowd that cried about the removal of the web bonuses from the Kronos and Paladin)
I think my biggest problem with this is that it's nothing new and doesn't even feel like a complete proposal. All of this has been suggested before, generally multiple times and none of it is non-controversial. |

Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
492
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 00:24:00 -
[3173] - Quote
For all those arguing about the definition of the word "marauder", I'm pretty sure CCP's idea when naming the things was that the ships are designed to loot and salvage, on top of killing rats, so it goes very well with "to wander or raid in search of plunder". So yeah, Marauders are fine in this regard. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 01:20:00 -
[3174] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Adding a salvage bonus treads a little too heavily on the toes of the Noctis. This is supposed to be a viable option, not a replacement to the Noctis.
I don't think a Marauder will ever replace the Noctis for the general populace, the later coming after the previous for starters kinda makes that argument moot. But the Marauder is the alternative to re-docking your Pirate BS or Navy BS and returning to your mission to salvage. Those that bothered to hit Multitasking 3 (or 5 if they're running an Auto -Targetter) can vacuum as they go, or not have to Multi-Box.
I'm not saying I want tractors to 96km, but at least a healthy 60km would be nice to cover this proposed MJD strategy.
For the solo mission runner, the Marauder class should be the Apex ship. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 01:29:00 -
[3175] - Quote
Luc Chastot wrote:For all those arguing about the definition of the word "marauder", I'm pretty sure CCP's idea when naming the things was that the ships are designed to loot and salvage, on top of killing rats, so it goes very well with "to wander or raid in search of plunder". So yeah, Marauders are fine in this regard.
You get a cookie.
Pi Selina wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Adding a salvage bonus treads a little too heavily on the toes of the Noctis. This is supposed to be a viable option, not a replacement to the Noctis.
I don't think a Marauder will ever replace the Noctis for the general populace, the later coming after the previous for starters kinda makes that argument moot. But the Marauder is the alternative to re-docking your Pirate BS or Navy BS and returning to your mission to salvage. Those that bothered to hit Multitasking 3 (or 5 if they're running an Auto -Targetter) can vacuum as they go, or not have to Multi-Box. I'm not saying I want tractors to 96km, but at least a healthy 60km would be nice to cover this proposed MJD strategy. For the solo mission runner, the Marauder class should be the Apex ship.
I kind of disagree with this in that a single ship should not eliminate choice when selecting a ship. The Marauders shouldn't try to be most viable for every form of solo mission running, that's somewhat impractical and would likely end up with them either being too good overall or not good enough at any one style to justify the cost or training.
Plus you don't need a salvage bonus for these to be good solo mission ships, the spare highs and tractor bonus already make them better than any other offering. Plus salvaging everything isn't a good use of your time if you're running like this. The only things that are going to be worth your time are Battleship wrecks, some of the cruisers, and anything with loot (because yay Meta 4). Having time for anything else probably means you're taking too long to clear the pocket. |

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 01:53:00 -
[3176] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I kind of disagree with this in that a single ship should not eliminate choice when selecting a ship. The Marauders shouldn't try to be most viable for every form of solo mission running, that's somewhat impractical and would likely end up with them either being too good overall or not good enough at any one style to justify the cost or training.
Plus you don't need a salvage bonus for these to be good solo mission ships, the spare highs and tractor bonus already make them better than any other offering. Plus salvaging everything isn't a good use of your time if you're running like this. The only things that are going to be worth your time are Battleship wrecks, some of the cruisers, and anything with loot (because yay Meta 4). Having time for anything else probably means you're taking too long to clear the pocket.
Ok, I totally misread salvaging as tractor bonus. Tractor bonus I think needs to stay (at least), or be buffed to 150% (preferably).
Yes, no salvage bonus, my bad
But again, for solo missioning, a CNR with a little Noctis is exactly why I trained for the Golem,.. That and who doesn't like to utter "Torpedoes in the water!" In a terrible Ruskie accent, eh? Komrad? |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 02:21:00 -
[3177] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Luc Chastot wrote:For all those arguing about the definition of the word "marauder", I'm pretty sure CCP's idea when naming the things was that the ships are designed to loot and salvage, on top of killing rats, so it goes very well with "to wander or raid in search of plunder". So yeah, Marauders are fine in this regard. You get a cookie. Pi Selina wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Adding a salvage bonus treads a little too heavily on the toes of the Noctis. This is supposed to be a viable option, not a replacement to the Noctis.
I don't think a Marauder will ever replace the Noctis for the general populace, the later coming after the previous for starters kinda makes that argument moot. But the Marauder is the alternative to re-docking your Pirate BS or Navy BS and returning to your mission to salvage. Those that bothered to hit Multitasking 3 (or 5 if they're running an Auto -Targetter) can vacuum as they go, or not have to Multi-Box. I'm not saying I want tractors to 96km, but at least a healthy 60km would be nice to cover this proposed MJD strategy. For the solo mission runner, the Marauder class should be the Apex ship. I kind of disagree with this in that a single ship should not eliminate choice when selecting a ship. The Marauders shouldn't try to be most viable for every form of solo mission running, that's somewhat impractical and would likely end up with them either being too good overall or not good enough at any one style to justify the cost or training. Plus you don't need a salvage bonus for these to be good solo mission ships, the spare highs and tractor bonus already make them better than any other offering. Plus salvaging everything isn't a good use of your time if you're running like this. The only things that are going to be worth your time are Battleship wrecks, some of the cruisers, and anything with loot (because yay Meta 4). Having time for anything else probably means you're taking too long to clear the pocket.
Proponents of tractor beam bonus elimination have stated that have a 2nd ship (noctis) is the way it's done. Using a 2nd account or going back for the 2nd ship adds more time to missions for sure. I use salvage drones myself. Maybe they believe cutting a bonus they don't want frees up room for one they do want? Personally my 2nd account started off as a noctis driver. After a awhile I came to realize that I still can't safely run a lvl4 and salvage at the same time. Having your single account have to go and get your noctis to come back and salvage/loot adds half again more time to each mission. Dual boxing with 2 accounts running a mission and salvaging on the other can be done but not all of us have the set up for that. Adding the 4th high slot to the marauders as part of re-balancing them gives us a chance to see if expanding the salvaging/tractor beam bonus might be for the greater good. As the fastest way to salvage would be on the fly as you are making wrecks. (Role Bonus:500% bonus to tractor beam range and 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity(orca) 100km or Marauder Skill Bonus:5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level (noctis) 96km @ lvl5 or Role Bonus: 99% reduction in the powergrid need, 50% reduction in the capacitor need, and 50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Tractor Beams. They are able to fit Cap Tracks due to significant reductions in the powergrid, CPU and capacitor requirements for these mods.750pg,55cpu,100JG cap(like tier 3 BCs) 200km
one of these options would not be OP or harm the noctis's place as the preimant salvaging ship with 8 highs to do the job vrs the 4 of a marauder. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 02:43:00 -
[3178] - Quote
i believe the original idea of the marauder was so that you can salvage loot and do the mission at the same time. This was the reason for such a long training time, but now with the intro of noctis, the newer players started to question the reason for long training time for marauder when other ships can do the same and better. I think it is only fair that the marauder get a nice boost to its salvage + tractor beams to keep the tradition. |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 04:57:00 -
[3179] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:i believe the original idea of the marauder was so that you can salvage loot and do the mission at the same time. This was the reason for such a long training time, but now with the intro of noctis, the newer players started to question the reason for long training time for marauder when other ships can do the same and better. I think it is only fair that the marauder get a nice boost to its salvage + tractor beams to keep the tradition.
The problem with a salvaging bonus goes against what eve is all about, which is flying one ship that does something well. AKA not allowing players to do ridiculous things like creating the ultimate laser fitted raven and have them survive.
Whether you use a Marauder for mission running or for 0.0 Ratting (which I have done and is quite tricky) you are naturally dealing with players who want a ship that is going to min/max. Because of this, the literal definition of 'marauder' fits the playing style of get in, get out, rinse and repeat. As stated before, tractor beams on marauders currently work for min/maxing when you use them on battleships and on other occasional high priority wrecks. To salvage, even in a Noctus takes time (with T2 salvage rigs and all skills 5, I could salvage any null sec site in about 4 minutes). To sit in a site with only 3 or even 4 slots for tractor beams and salvagers is going to take FOREVER, and so a salvage bonus is impractical. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
161
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 05:02:00 -
[3180] - Quote
Pi Selina wrote:Ok, I totally misread salvaging as tractor bonus. Tractor bonus I think needs to stay (at least), or be buffed to 150% (preferably). Yes, no salvage bonus, my bad  But again, for solo missioning, a CNR with a little Noctis is exactly why I trained for the Golem,.. That and who doesn't like to utter "Torpedoes in the water!" In a terrible Ruskie accent, eh? Komrad?
BUAHAHAHAHA xD
I lol'd. Hard.
Yes, the tractor bonus needs to stay and I could certainly get behind seeing it buffed a bit, especially if the MJD bonus stays as-is. Overall it's just not a bonus that has any real effect in combat outside of PvE, it's something for after combat is over.
MBizon Osis wrote:Proponents of tractor beam bonus elimination have stated that have a 2nd ship (noctis) is the way it's done. Using a 2nd account or going back for the 2nd ship adds more time to missions for sure. I use salvage drones myself. Maybe they believe cutting a bonus they don't want frees up room for one they do want? Personally my 2nd account started off as a noctis driver. After a awhile I came to realize that I still can't safely run a lvl4 and salvage at the same time. Having your single account have to go and get your noctis to come back and salvage/loot adds half again more time to each mission. Dual boxing with 2 accounts running a mission and salvaging on the other can be done but not all of us have the set up for that. Adding the 4th high slot to the marauders as part of re-balancing them gives us a chance to see if expanding the salvaging/tractor beam bonus might be for the greater good. As the fastest way to salvage would be on the fly as you are making wrecks. (Role Bonus:500% bonus to tractor beam range and 100% bonus to tractor beam velocity(orca) 100km or Marauder Skill Bonus:5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level (noctis) 96km @ lvl5 or Role Bonus: 99% reduction in the powergrid need, 50% reduction in the capacitor need, and 50% reduction in the CPU need of Capital Tractor Beams. They are able to fit Cap Tracks due to significant reductions in the powergrid, CPU and capacitor requirements for these mods.750pg,55cpu,100JG cap(like tier 3 BCs) 200km
one of these options would not be OP or harm the noctis's place as the preimant salvaging ship with 8 highs to do the job vrs the 4 of a marauder.
I think you about hit the nail on the head with why people want the tractor bonus to go. They're PvP people who see it as a "bonus slot" that could be used for something "more useful" (to them).
I don't think CCP is actually counting it as an active bonus though since it has no meaningful effect on PvP. The MJD bonus is, essentially, the actual bonus along with the Bastion Module.
As to the exact nature of the bonuses, the Noctis should still be a strictly better salvage ship IMO, since that's its role. Similarly the tractor bonus and any hypothetical salvage bonus should stay as role bonuses and not really be factored to heavily into overall balance since they have zero PvP use and not everyone's going to want to make use of them.
Vivi Udan wrote:Mer88 wrote:i believe the original idea of the marauder was so that you can salvage loot and do the mission at the same time. This was the reason for such a long training time, but now with the intro of noctis, the newer players started to question the reason for long training time for marauder when other ships can do the same and better. I think it is only fair that the marauder get a nice boost to its salvage + tractor beams to keep the tradition. The problem with a salvaging bonus goes against what eve is all about, which is flying one ship that does something well. AKA not allowing players to do ridiculous things like creating the ultimate laser fitted raven and have them survive. Whether you use a Marauder for mission running or for 0.0 Ratting (which I have done and is quite tricky) you are naturally dealing with players who want a ship that is going to min/max. Because of this, the literal definition of 'marauder' fits the playing style of get in, get out, rinse and repeat. As stated before, tractor beams on marauders currently work for min/maxing when you use them on battleships and on other occasional high priority wrecks. To salvage, even in a Noctus takes time (with T2 salvage rigs and all skills 5, I could salvage any null sec site in about 4 minutes). To sit in a site with only 3 or even 4 slots for tractor beams and salvagers is going to take FOREVER, and so a salvage bonus is impractical.
If anything this is an argument FOR a salvage bonus since you're unlikely to rig the ship for salvage or have as many salvagers as on a Noctis meaning you're giving players the option of a meaningful tradeoff. |
|

Shaden Nightwalker
Tryblium Sanguinis
3323
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 06:22:00 -
[3181] - Quote
Besides the balancing, which I can not currently comment on because I was away for some time;
Please give the Golem a Tech 2 Rokh Model and make it go vertical when it transforms.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 06:41:00 -
[3182] - Quote
you know, in reply to all the definition posts and etc... i just want to say that if ccp decides ti change the marauders name, and/or if they decide to change the marauders role dramatically.... it would be a bad decision to entirely alienate the fanbase of this ship, that is to say, for all of those who took all the time to skill into it are going to be disappointed if it becomes unusable or changes roles completely.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 07:01:00 -
[3183] - Quote
There's a secondary aspect to tanking that very few people on here seem to be taking into consideration, and that is capacitor usage and stability. This may be because everyone seems to immediately throw out ASB as the solution.
You are correct that ~400/s effective rep is "enough" to tank any lvl 4. However, if you can only rep that amount you must run your tank mods constantly. If you bring 800/s effective reps, you only have to run the modules HALF the time. This allows you to pulse your modules and achieve a state of "simulated" cap stability. This concept is very important for weapons that require cap to use, lasers especially.
Yes, you can use cap boosters to run your guns and tank. However, having to head to Jita, or your local hub, to resupply every so often is a HUGE reduction to effective ISK/hour from missioning.
Having extra cap and greater tanking ability if needed also allows you to deal with unexpected guests in your mission space.
Edit: Has anyone come up with a fit using the v1 proposal that produces OP tanking ability if you only utilize a single ASB on the ship? |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3346
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:16:00 -
[3184] - Quote
So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
162
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:27:00 -
[3185] - Quote
Roime wrote:So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
No, but they are the primary use of Marauders at the moment and a lot of us would rather that not be invalidated in the name of other PvE. Besides and honestly I'm somewhat wary of trying to get a Marauder to out-perform a Carrier in null or a T3 (for its mass) in a Wormhole. |

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:30:00 -
[3186] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:I would also like to point out that Eve Board is only tracking a small fraction of pilots in the game. We know there are around 500,000 active accounts in the game and looking at data from the last published Quarterly Economic Report shows that there are around 2 characters per account. This means that Eve Board is tracking only around 7.8% of active pilots, and since it doesn't represent a random sampling (you have to volunteer to give it your character data) it's probably not a statistically valid source anyway, meaning the actual proportion of people able to fly Marauders or close to doing so could be much higher or lower.
Indeed, I know for sure that mine and friends PvE alt are not on eveboard. Across 5 Account, there are 4 Marauders Pilots (some of them can even fly more than one race marauder).
Cade Windstalker wrote:I think you about hit the nail on the head with why people want the tractor bonus to go. They're PvP people who see it as a "bonus slot" that could be used for something "more useful" (to them).
I don't think CCP is actually counting it as an active bonus though since it has no meaningful effect on PvP. The MJD bonus is, essentially, the actual bonus along with the Bastion Module.
Agree, the "pve integrated bonus" should not going to be weighted at all if they don't interact with PvP
The reason, a point i made some page back: CCP might consider that Marauder skill is very intensive, not very diffused and advertised as PvE "top ship". therefore we are not speaking about "XYrace Battleship" or "XYrace Cruiser", people planned to fly a marauder and invested in a specific training path that lead to a single Ship. "compromising" one of this ships leave little to no alternative (not a multiple ships class as BS o Cruiser, yet not a prerequisite to go further).
This is not about "CCP ruined my ship" or "i don't want my SP touched", it's about EvE skill planning. Altering a ship play style it's "ok" during rebalance, like some bonus swap, EW switch ecc.. Drastically changing something that fit a precise purpose with no alternative it's a no go. I'm sure CCP can (and so did) collect data regard numbers, use and location of actual marauders.
The "perfect" idea, pve-wise, would be that the rebalance leaves PvE performance at least at the same level they were before the fix. For me the first version, as much as work were still needed on the bastion, was a closer iteration to this concept.
NOTE: i'm not saying "OMG!?! i want my sp back!!", just that as feedback the first version was more the right direction to work on. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:31:00 -
[3187] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Roime wrote:So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
No, but they are the primary use of Marauders at the moment and a lot of us would rather that not be invalidated in the name of other PvE. Besides and honestly I'm somewhat wary of trying to get a Marauder to out-perform a Carrier in null or a T3 (for its mass) in a Wormhole.
If the class can be enhanced in such a way that they become effective (not necessarily the best) for the other forms of PVE, I'm all for it. However, I agree with Cade that it should not come at the cost of losing the use it already excels at. |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2021
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:40:00 -
[3188] - Quote
Random idea for a pretty cool siege bonus: mods dont take damage when overloaded. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |

Eridon Hermetz
Adeptus Iterare Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:50:00 -
[3189] - Quote
and what about make marauders , like the name want to say , like a second line of black ops ?
small jump drive , T2 resist , cool damage , cool agility/speed (for a bs ofc) with the same cloacking ability than black ops we have , but cannot bridge but can lock covert cyno ? that's woul'd be the perfect ninja PVE missioner in 0.0/low sec (to do L5 for example)and you increase his pvp application in the same time
the bastion module must be create for a new tech II battleship class (like T2 abaddon or T2 Rokh) and make them like a REALLY mini dread to pos bash in empire or other |

TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:52:00 -
[3190] - Quote
Every new CCP idiotism idea is rebalanceing ?
My favored maraduer stats is, their ridiculous low sensor strenghts. 11 for Vargur ? :P Megalol Nice PVP stat for dumbs.
"We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well." ROTFL
But now the new idiotism of CCP, create bastion modules for them aka. Siege mode:
" When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec"
This is the new ISK sinking idea ? Easy targets for SBs and fast billions sinking to refuse bin? Bravo, the CCP can suprise me with their new and new dumb ideas.
Easy to say, go with this ship to pvping and when you lost an over 1billions value of ship u will see, which is the fast ISK sink and how can lost easier your money. It is no coincidence that why CCP removed the plus tanking and resist abilities. The full stationary marauder idea its a stupidity, easy prey for SBs and the users why would to use their easy destructable, high values unuseable ships on battlefronts ? If they want to make to "PVP compatibility" make lower marauder prices, boost their sensor strenght, because their strenght is ridiculous in present days and would be same without bastion mode too, give to them special bonuses, not this crap bastionary idiotism, where the ships stand at battlefront with 0m/s and easy prey for concentrated attacks. The capital ships can die very fast in battle with much better HP in siege mode like as a BS and their prices not realy higher than a marauder. A kronos is 1.1b such as Archon. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
162
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:55:00 -
[3191] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:and what about make marauders , like the name want to say , like a second line of black ops ?
small jump drive , T2 resist , cool damage , cool agility/speed (for a bs ofc) with the same cloacking ability than black ops we have , but cannot bridge but can lock covert cyno ? that's would be the perfect ninja PVE missioner in 0.0/low sec (to do L5 for example)and you increase his pvp application in the same time
the bastion module must be create for a new tech II battleship class (like T2 abaddon or T2 Rokh) and make them like a REALLY mini dread to pos bash in empire or other
Except that the current Marauders have absolutely nothing to do with cloaking, aren't terribly fast, and this would completely invalidate their use as PvE ships. |

Eridon Hermetz
Adeptus Iterare Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:03:00 -
[3192] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Eridon Hermetz wrote:and what about make marauders , like the name want to say , like a second line of black ops ?
small jump drive , T2 resist , cool damage , cool agility/speed (for a bs ofc) with the same cloacking ability than black ops we have , but cannot bridge but can lock covert cyno ? that's would be the perfect ninja PVE missioner in 0.0/low sec (to do L5 for example)and you increase his pvp application in the same time
the bastion module must be create for a new tech II battleship class (like T2 abaddon or T2 Rokh) and make them like a REALLY mini dread to pos bash in empire or other Except that the current Marauders have absolutely nothing to do with cloaking, aren't terribly fast, and this would completely invalidate their use as PvE ships. Also there is a very good reason Bastion does not have a damage bonus and most of us who know of the current balance issues with Dreadnaughts (dread-blaping) don't want them to.
the problem with the bastion module is that make you immobile and eazy to blap so i don't understand why they want make their immobile , he was not really fast in fact without bastion XD
i just want to say , why they don't make it like a new line of black ops ships , the description are saying , sneak&attack beyond the ennemy line ... |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3346
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:19:00 -
[3193] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Roime wrote:So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
No, but they are the primary use of Marauders at the moment and a lot of us would rather that not be invalidated in the name of other PvE. Besides and honestly I'm somewhat wary of trying to get a Marauder to out-perform a Carrier in null or a T3 (for its mass) in a Wormhole.
Primary use currently yes, which is a result of the Triumvirate of Terribad- L4 runners being terribad, the ships being terribad and L4s being terribad.
Making marauders better can't cure L4 runners or the missions and it's clear that straightforward buffs won't make marauders worse for L4s (it might force L4 runners to rethink, refit and adapt, which seems to be a major issue) but it can expand their use to other areas, and possibly even encourage L4 runners to something else for a change.
As it's been said numerous times, any T1 ship can run L4s efficiently- they should not be used as a yardstick for high performance ships. I'm personally eyeing marauders in PVE context as the default option for C3/4s and L5s, as well as plexing. The rationale behind is this- if you can solo content more efficiently than T3s with the same price tag, it's worth the risk, and if you can solo content where a carrier is viable, it's certainly less risky to use a battleship.
In case of solo or small gang PVE in wormholes, mass is pretty much irrelevant. Leaving out running home sites, jumping a couple of battleships with scouts and Noctis thru a C3/4 several times doesn't close the hole, and you'll close it on purpose anyway after it's done. For wh PVP mass remains a consideration, and naturally marauders won't replace T3s as the rank & file ship, but if the rebalancing succeeds they might have a special role in fleets.
Subcaps are not supposed to outperform capitals in tank/dps, smaller hulls just have other advantages.
Ideally rebalancing makes marauders better for demanding PVE, and viable for some areas of PVP. I seriously doubt succeeding in these would make them worse for L4s. Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |

Kezari
UK Roid Reapers
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:39:00 -
[3194] - Quote
Don't know if its been said or not without re reading loads of pages...........
If you fit the Bastion module to your ship you get the new bonuses being advertised, if you dont you get the current values/bonuses so you have the choice.
Cant be that hard to do can it? Have the Bastion module over write some bonuses and give other's when fitted then every body will be happy  |

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:44:00 -
[3195] - Quote
As some other people already proposed, a good solution could be "scripts". Let's call them something like "Deployment Reconfiguration Protocol" (so Sci-fy and people against name dumbing can be happy). A pair of scripts should be enough.
As concept:
Marauders (1st edition + T2 resist)
- No Reconfiguration: sort of bastion first edition,however the bouns repair amount is lowered by 37.5%
- "Ship of the Line" Reconfiguration: Lose EW immunity, some resists and local repair bonus, can be remote assisted (incursion/fleet stand)
- "Ironclad" Reconfiguration: No resists (or repair, it should a defense penalty) gain little damage bonus/application and extended EW range.
They would need a lot more of work regard balance but that's the idea. |

Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 09:54:00 -
[3196] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. So you took all the awesome parts that made them great for small and medium gangs, ripped that out and made them bs hulls with t2 resists that won't ever want to use the bastion mode because they'll be completely useless in it compared to say navy apocs?
Congrats on killing their usefulness before they even get off the ground! |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:03:00 -
[3197] - Quote
Striscio wrote:As some other people already proposed, a good solution could be "scripts". Let's call them something like "Deployment Reconfiguration Protocol" (so Sci-fy and people against name dumbing can be happy). A pair of scripts should be enough. As concept: Marauders (1st edition + T2 resist)
- No Reconfiguration: sort of bastion first edition,however the bouns repair amount is lowered by 37.5%
- "Ship of the Line" Reconfiguration: Lose EW immunity, some resists and local repair bonus, can be remote assisted (incursion/fleet stand)
- "Ironclad" Reconfiguration: No resists (or repair, it should a defense penalty) gain little damage bonus/application and extended EW range.
They would need a lot more of work regard balance but that's the idea. As many,many people have proposed. Far to many for it to go unrepresented ,or at least acknowledged in the next iteration If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:04:00 -
[3198] - Quote
While trying to make Marauders a viable PvP ship CCP devs removed both the PvP and PvE options for them with the latest changes. Removing the local rep bonus while being in bastion mode basically just removed the just implemented local rep changes to mods in Odyssey 1.1. The added T2 resists do not change that situation much. The web strength bonus looks nice on paper but the usage is so limited, even with pimped out 15+ km range mods. You might try for web range bonus here if you really want to add a web bonus. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:26:00 -
[3199] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:As many,many people have proposed. Far to many for it to go unrepresented ,or at least acknowledged in the next iteration
The sad part would be that probably none of the proposers really believe it is a solution as much as a damage control....
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
486
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:36:00 -
[3200] - Quote
Roime wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Roime wrote:So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
No, but they are the primary use of Marauders at the moment and a lot of us would rather that not be invalidated in the name of other PvE. Besides and honestly I'm somewhat wary of trying to get a Marauder to out-perform a Carrier in null or a T3 (for its mass) in a Wormhole. Primary use currently yes, which is a result of the Triumvirate of Terribad- L4 runners being terribad, the ships being terribad and L4s being terribad. Making marauders better can't cure L4 runners or the missions and it's clear that straightforward buffs won't make marauders worse for L4s (it might force L4 runners to rethink, refit and adapt, which seems to be a major issue) but it can expand their use to other areas, and possibly even encourage L4 runners to something else for a change. As it's been said numerous times, any T1 ship can run L4s efficiently- they should not be used as a yardstick for high performance ships. I'm personally eyeing marauders in PVE context as the default option for C3/4s and L5s, as well as plexing. The rationale behind is this- if you can solo content more efficiently than T3s with the same price tag, it's worth the risk, and if you can solo content where a carrier is viable, it's certainly less risky to use a battleship. In case of solo or small gang PVE in wormholes, mass is pretty much irrelevant. Leaving out running home sites, jumping a couple of battleships with scouts and Noctis thru a C3/4 several times doesn't close the hole, and you'll close it on purpose anyway after it's done. For wh PVP mass remains a consideration, and naturally marauders won't replace T3s as the rank & file ship, but if the rebalancing succeeds they might have a special role in fleets. Subcaps are not supposed to outperform capitals in tank/dps, smaller hulls just have other advantages. Ideally rebalancing makes marauders better for demanding PVE, and viable for some areas of PVP. I seriously doubt succeeding in these would make them worse for L4s.
Than why are pirate BSs with straight out PVP bonuses better mission runners for two out of four of the pirate ships.
Mauraders main advantage is ammo saving and a monster cargohold.
Boring.
|
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:41:00 -
[3201] - Quote
Striscio wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:As many,many people have proposed. Far to many for it to go unrepresented ,or at least acknowledged in the next iteration The sad part would be that probably none of the proposers really believe it is a solution as much as a damage control.... Well, each has come with a selection of their own game breaking tweaks, but generally people seem somewhat positive about bastion( barring those who consider it a death scentance(can't spell, don't judge)) but having the mod scripted has been mentioned at least every other page of this thread, usually with the notion of allowing other a choice between iterations. (Iv been lurking here for days) . Whatever they comeback with it should at the verry least send some portions of the community into blind hilarious hysteria,and at best be rather interesting. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:53:00 -
[3202] - Quote
Nothin' wrong with marauders as they are if people bothered to use them properly, was nothin wrong with HACs either (excepting the eagle and your insistence on split ranging hybrid guns so optimals are worthless) when people bothered to use em properly.
Keep wrenching hulls to suit the sheep and you're just gonna end up with more single hull fights where everyone's doin the same thing....see last tourney, then look at what was done the tourney before, you'll see what'll happen next year if you keep bolting these same FoTM changes guys.... more fore thought about why peeps chose what they do thanks..... -.-
I'ma go back to sleep now..have fun |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 10:59:00 -
[3203] - Quote
Another Problem is that the Community is splitted, some prefer balanced ships without to much weird but Fun tweaks others like more crazy and fresh mechanics over boring equality.
CCP cant satisfy both but they could use ships that are mostly unused for some "Tests".
Even the Bastion Marauders suck, they will be used because People like exotic stuff. |

Jonn Titor
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:10:00 -
[3204] - Quote
The worste experience I ever have in game is ninja entering my mission space. They disrupt what I'm doing. The Marauder class is obviously a Solo PvE Mission boat. It's the perfect platform- capable and survivable.
If you want to reward me with some well deserved value for my time spent playing (and paying) then why not have bastion mode almost impossible to scan down? Greatly reduce the likelihood of ninja locating mission space. There is a lot of time during transit to gates etc that bastion is not on. Regular signatures would apply.
OFF TOPIC (but relevant) : This is one fair solution to the poor value I get when other players are allowed to interfere with what Im doing. Just keep quiet about the sandbox etc. Everyone knows that the griefers are stealing and baiting in order to cause harm and rage.
You could solve this another way : If someone steals mission loot they gain a death warrant from the owner. Mission runner has kill rights plus a countdown timer. When [timer expires] -OR- ninja has been [killed one time] then flags reset. Ninja cannot refit and engage without concord intervention.
Thanx for reading. -T- |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:18:00 -
[3205] - Quote
Jonn Titor wrote:
OFF TOPIC (but relevant) : This is one fair solution to the poor value I get when other players are allowed to interfere with what Im doing. Just keep quiet about the sandbox etc. Everyone knows that the griefers are stealing and baiting in order to cause harm and rage.
You could solve this another way : If someone steals mission loot they gain a death warrant from the owner. Mission runner has kill rights plus a countdown timer. When [timer expires] -OR- ninja has been [killed one time] then flags reset. Ninja cannot refit and engage without concord intervention.
Thanx for reading. -T-
if only there were a mechanism in place that could do such a thing.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wombutor
Mulkerot
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:20:00 -
[3206] - Quote
Well with the removal of the shield boost bonus (Vargur), i would love to see more low slots, so i could fit Armor tank and actually use webs, MJD and bastion module...
Just saying currently my EFT Vargur (im poor) doesnt have room in med slot cos it is Shield tanked solo missioner, and i cant just run around with repper and one booster. Eaven less after these changes hit TQ
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:23:00 -
[3207] - Quote
first: no such thing as a PVE or a PVP ship, only PVE and PVP fits all ships can PVP just as well as they can PVE with exception to a few very broken cases (such as the eagle i mentioned earlier due to hybrids not being a well thought weapon)
second: If people are making your life miserable in eve, it's because you allow them the opportunity to do so, they have just as much right to steal stuff you left in space as you had to leave it there - defend your claim (yes ccp - not allowing peeps to defend stuff is a borked mechanic, much like high sec fleet aggression)
third:
by adhering to the status quo and taking a spirit level to all the hulls ccp is discouraging creative ship fittings, forcing each hull to adhere to a single standard or doctrine, encouraging cookie cutters and discouraging creative tactics, with every ship you 'level out' your game will become an every more stagnant place, I say this again, stop ignoring the human thought element when designing and proposing your changes, people choose the easiest most efficient way to achieve a result and will not deviate from their accepted standard until they are forced to (usually by being shot out of space by someone better than they are)
not only are you spoon feeding them your easiest result by forcing hulls into a single role with one good fitting idea, you're removing the ability to effectively retro fit ships to do anything but this one thing, if you realise this and still chose to do this anyway, then shame on you and your game, if not...wake up. |

marVLs
400
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:27:00 -
[3208] - Quote
Im really glad CCP came with those changes that early, so there is time to make things good, thanks CCP  Now bring us something useful cause cool things are already announced (transforming yeah ) |

Gaming God
EVE Corporation 493120
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:32:00 -
[3209] - Quote
The only ting i can see as an improvement is the Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
499
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:41:00 -
[3210] - Quote
Just throwing in a random thought: If scripig bastion mod looks like offering it too much versatility, it's not a problem to make bastion require at least one script and make reloading time 1min/3min/whatever you want.
Although I doubt that the idea about scripts will be accepted, but still... |
|

Marco Uvex
New Eden Union Evil.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 11:48:00 -
[3211] - Quote
It looks to me as if Marauders going to be an expensive PvP tool?
Just a guess: a) CCP could create a new line of Bs. PvP Specialised with web bonus. 
b) On the other hand CCP could improve the Tank of Black Ops and give them web bonuses (or warp disruption bonuses). I play EvE now for more than two years and from my experience this are less used ships at the moment. It could be an advantage for Black Ops ships ( ) which have no meaning in PvE.
This change may not be a welcome gift for the Marauder communitie (especially in Highsec). PvP is a big part of EvE but why transforming PvE in PvP? Please be more creative. |

JetCord
People of Random Nature
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:02:00 -
[3212] - Quote
not happy with the rep bonus being removed and being put into the bastion mode - some of us actually want to pvp without being a sitting duck (figuratively) and pls retained the original drones bay and bandwidth.
why not removed the MJD bonus and retained the marauder old bonuses
and can you guy tell us exactly what you want with the bastion mod? coz from where i stand it like a cross between and siege and triage
why not make it into a mini siege mod - retain the large weapon range bonuses and give it dps bonus at least this will make pos / poco shoot less PITA for small gang |

Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:13:00 -
[3213] - Quote
Marco Uvex wrote:It looks to me as if Marauders going to be an expensive PvP tool? Just a guess: a) CCP could create a new line of Bs. PvP Specialised with web bonus.  b) On the other hand CCP could improve the Tank of Black Ops and give them web bonuses (or warp disruption bonuses). I play EvE now for more than two years and from my experience this are less used ships at the moment. It could be an advantage for Black Ops ships (  ) which have no meaning in PvE. This change may not be a welcome gift for the Marauder communitie (especially in Highsec). PvP is a big part of EvE but why transforming PvE in PvP? Please be more creative. They aren't useful for PVP with the altered change proposal.
Now you have an expensive BS hull that either has normal weapons ranges, t2 resists, and a generous amount of utility highs or you have a sitting duck (unremote reppable, unmoving) but long ranged ship. Now, they *might* be usable as the first but then you've forced players to forego the bastion mechanic altogether in order to use them effectively for pvp. And as the second they are really, really unimpressive- no mobility, no remote reps, and the lack of bonus to local reps means these things are just going to die even with the ranges they can engage in while bastioned. There is realistically only so much positioning you can gain even with a mjd because you will be still for an entire minute where your enemies will most likely not be.
This makes the price point vs ship utility rather skewed to the point that you probably don't want to use them at all for pvp. The resist profile from t2 resists is only so useful when your engagement range is so limited, that you may as well use a t1 hull that can outrange them and effectively trade ship for ship against them. And being a near exclusively (unbonused) local rep tanker with range but no mobility just means you'll be eaten alive while in bastion.
With the first round changes they were indeed insane for pve, but also had high potential for small and medium gang pvp- obviously large scale pvp and local reps don't really go together. Now the only place they'll be all that useful for pvp will be in alliance tournament-like environments. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:29:00 -
[3214] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Marco Uvex wrote:It looks to me as if Marauders going to be an expensive PvP tool? Just a guess: a) CCP could create a new line of Bs. PvP Specialised with web bonus.  b) On the other hand CCP could improve the Tank of Black Ops and give them web bonuses (or warp disruption bonuses). I play EvE now for more than two years and from my experience this are less used ships at the moment. It could be an advantage for Black Ops ships (  ) which have no meaning in PvE. This change may not be a welcome gift for the Marauder communitie (especially in Highsec). PvP is a big part of EvE but why transforming PvE in PvP? Please be more creative. They aren't useful for PVP with the altered change proposal. Now you have an expensive BS hull that either has normal weapons ranges, t2 resists, and a generous amount of utility highs or you have a sitting duck (unremote reppable, unmoving) but long ranged ship. Now, they *might* be usable as the first but then you've forced players to forego the bastion mechanic altogether in order to use them effectively for pvp. And as the second they are really, really unimpressive- no mobility, no remote reps, and the lack of a significant bonus to local reps means these things are just going to die even with the ranges they can engage in while bastioned. There is realistically only so much positioning you can gain even with a mjd because you will be still for an entire minute where your enemies will most likely not be. This makes the price point vs ship utility rather skewed to the point that you probably don't want to use them at all for pvp. The resist profile from t2 resists is only so useful when your engagement range is so limited, that you may as well use a t1 hull that can outrange them and effectively trade ship for ship against them. And being a near exclusively local rep tanker with range but no mobility just means you'll be eaten alive while in bastion. With the first round changes they were indeed insane for pve, but also had high potential for small and medium gang pvp- obviously large scale pvp and local reps don't really go together. Now the only place they'll be all that useful for pvp will be in alliance tournament-like environments.
which is why they're used so infrequently now, blops have high survivability, marauders not so high - while utility makes them amazing for gangs as they are now they take effort to fit fly and support, add to this the hull cost and you'll get an unappealing combination - peeps will use the greatest reward to risk ship they have - most of these are t1's cheap and effective and why t3 battlecruisers are so prevelant (high damage, low cost, ) and blops - (high damage, high survivability high offset cost)
the ships themselves, are perfectly functional and can be fit to adapt to combat of any scale, can have fleet stratagems built around them - the question is always is it cost effective to do this? (for marauders this answer's always no - no point spending 800-1Bn on a hull that'll do the same thing as a 100 mil hull)
as for incursion fleets marauders >> pirate battleships BUT harder to skill into, trickier to support, and so less prevelant - they are however the most powerful of battleship hulls that can be fielded in that environment.
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:38:00 -
[3215] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:as for incursion fleets marauders >> pirate battleships BUT harder to skill into, trickier to support, and so less prevelant - they are however the most powerful of battleship hulls that can be fielded in that environment.
Hmm... do I understand that marauders ">> asin better >>" than pirate battleships but harder to skill into?
well, there are rarely any marauder in incursion fleet tho because faction / pirate bs-es are just alot better and new changes will not make marauders more wanted in incursions either. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:44:00 -
[3216] - Quote
I would love to see that:
T2 -> Needs more Skills but more Fun mechanics Faction -> "Boring" Classic Combat Vessels with little Bit more Fighting Abilities. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:45:00 -
[3217] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Wedgetail wrote:as for incursion fleets marauders >> pirate battleships BUT harder to skill into, trickier to support, and so less prevelant - they are however the most powerful of battleship hulls that can be fielded in that environment.
Hmm... do I understand that marauders ">> asin better >>" than pirate battleships but harder to skill into? well, there are rarely any marauder in incursion fleet tho because faction / pirate bs-es are just alot better and new changes will not make marauders more wanted in incursions either.
marauders are better than the pirate battleships - this is due to their versatility and damage projection ability, pirate battleships are t1.5 marauders - thus do not require the t2 skill prerequisites, while he multiple race skills do attribute to evening this out, they aren't the same thing - costs are very different when comparing the two.
they also handle very differently, marauders sport vast amounts of utility that the pirate hulls simply don't have, personally i despised marauders for incursions until the point that I learnt how to adapt to them and make em do what they're good at, and I have not been out classed by any pilot in a faction battleship since. marauder's prime is in versatility, once you've got a handle on that it's the keenest sword you'll ever own |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:52:00 -
[3218] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:marauders are better than the pirate battleships - this is due to their versatility and damage projection ability, pirate battleships are t1.5 marauders - thus do not require the t2 skill prerequisites, while he multiple race skills do attribute to evening this out, they aren't the same thing - costs are very different when comparing the two.
they also handle very differently, marauders sport vast amounts of utility that the pirate hulls simply don't have, personally i despised marauders for incursions until the point that I learnt how to adapt to them and make em do what they're good at, and I have not been out classed by any pilot in a faction battleship since. marauder's prime is in versatility, once you've got a handle on that it's the keenest sword you'll ever own
man... for incursions, no.
Do you even fly in incursion fleets?
The best shield fleet comp is 10 vindis, 10 machs, 10 nm's, 6ish logis and ogb-s give or take +/- mixup.
marauders get taken if there is absolutely no more vindi mach or nm to pick from all ppl who want to get in fleet.
marauders have worse tracking, worse dmg application, worse utility, weaker tank... maybe not in armor fleets but yeah. thats the sad reality tho. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:03:00 -
[3219] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Wedgetail wrote:marauders are better than the pirate battleships - this is due to their versatility and damage projection ability, pirate battleships are t1.5 marauders - thus do not require the t2 skill prerequisites, while he multiple race skills do attribute to evening this out, they aren't the same thing - costs are very different when comparing the two.
they also handle very differently, marauders sport vast amounts of utility that the pirate hulls simply don't have, personally i despised marauders for incursions until the point that I learnt how to adapt to them and make em do what they're good at, and I have not been out classed by any pilot in a faction battleship since. marauder's prime is in versatility, once you've got a handle on that it's the keenest sword you'll ever own man... for incursions, no. Do you even fly in incursion fleets? The best shield fleet comp is 10 vindis, 10 machs, 10 nm's, 6ish logis and ogb-s give or take +/- mixup. marauders get taken if there is absolutely no more vindi mach or nm to pick from all ppl who want to get in fleet. marauders have worse tracking, worse dmg application, worse utility, weaker tank... maybe not in armor fleets but yeah. thats the sad reality tho.
go look at the concord notification for the first incursion beaten in eve, and the first name you'll see is mine, the reason your fleet commanders now do what they do is because those that worked at the same time i did, taught them to fly the way they do, and after all this time, your fleet compositions have not changed, pilots like phattecia and mikkaras handed you every thing you needed, pilots like hardin, ammzi, stephonUK and vendetta made it readily accessible, and all of you that took advantage of their work? well....haven't improved upon it much since - you're getting better ever so slightly at doing that single thing you do though, so i can credit you with that :)
just answer this: how often do you use compositions that aren't what you describe? how often have you seen people trying to refine what's being done? and do you know why? - I'll find the answers interesting....anyway,
my point being, I'm not making these statements without a basis in experience, I've been keeping an eye on fleet compositions and pilot behavior (in incursions particularly) for a long time. doing anything less, speaking with any less knowledge, would be a discredit to the efforts being made to expand our game - eve's development's worth far more effort than what i think ccp's put into compiling these recent hull changes, and my intention here, was to put forward points of consideration i think ccp skipped. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:17:00 -
[3220] - Quote
I couldnt give a flying **** even that you were first person to take down incursion really... couldnt care less
things change and ppl get better, ppl learn more
it's time for you to come and see any active incursion community and learn why pirate/faction bs-es are alot better than marauders. there are alot of reasons and they are all valid also.
but sir.. atm you are talking nonsence.
if you say that vindi is t1.5 BS compated to kronos... theres smth wrong with you no offence |
|

Marco Uvex
New Eden Union Evil.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:22:00 -
[3221] - Quote
I'm wondering a litle bit about the short cycle time of the bastion mode. And if the bastion mode should use fuel... will a Marauder get a fuel hangar? |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:28:00 -
[3222] - Quote
Marco Uvex wrote:I'm wondering a litle bit about the short cycle time of the bastion mode. And if the bastion mode should use fuel... will a Marauder get a fuel hangar? Already stated in the op that fuel probably wouldn't happen If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:30:00 -
[3223] - Quote
If Marauders are going to bridge the gap between sub capitals and capitals then you should include Advance Spaceship Command Level 4 to be included has a skill requirement and allow the extra agility of that skill be applied ONLY for the Marauder class hull.
Also the EHP is some what lacking considering it supposed to be a 'Mini-Dread', all hulls need an increase to health stats or else you still won't see much pvp (if any!) action out of this... besides the one or two ganks per week inside High Sec. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
- Sun Tzu |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:33:00 -
[3224] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:I couldnt give a flying **** even that you were first person to take down incursion really... couldnt care less things change and ppl get better, ppl learn more it's time for you to come and see any active incursion community and learn why pirate/faction bs-es are alot better than marauders. there are alot of reasons and they are all valid also. but sir.. atm you are talking nonsence. if you say that vindi is t1.5 BS compated to kronos... theres smth wrong with you  no offence
if you don't care then why ask? and you yourself professing to having such experience and not sharing? It would seem you've reached the limits of your patience or knowledge or both? you won't be able to discredit my view by simply stating your dislike for my background, you'll need more of an effort than that - but i'll understand if you're not willing to exert the effort required.
as for the bastion mod I'm curious also - but more in terms of the logic behind using a module that destroys mobility in the first place, as in combat it's mobility that causes you to kill or be killed, I'm thinking ccp needed a simple enough draw back to using such a module and copy pasted the logic behind siege and triage? for what reason are they depriving a supposedly pvp orientated sub cap ship with the one thing that'll keep it alive? |

Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax2
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:43:00 -
[3225] - Quote
Tractor beam bonus plz :-) does not have to be as good as noctis, but a bit better.
Hmm pvp, how about this as a suggestion: Modules takes 50% damage when over heated in bastion mode. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
352
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 14:58:00 -
[3226] - Quote
I just want to point out that just because the second iteration is bad doesn't make the first iteration any better then it was.
Two bad ideas are still two bad ideas. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

hellcane
Never Back Down
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 15:05:00 -
[3227] - Quote
True, it is good that they have time to unscrew things, potentially at least |

BFE
Thee Almitee Ones The Unforgiven Alliance
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 15:12:00 -
[3228] - Quote
I just want this change included on Sisi, like NOW! I wann try it out, see how my it's diffrent levels are affected by my skills. |

rock ape
ABC Warriors
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 15:43:00 -
[3229] - Quote
Agreed it's a good idea to rebalance Marauder's resists more in-line with other T2 ships...
and the Bastion mode concept sound like a fun way of breathing new life into the Marauder ship class...
>> however <<
please don't make them better for PvP at the expense of their PvE capabilities. Many people spent a long time training to fly Marauders with the understanding that they're geared towards PvE. They don't want to suddenly find they are now totally useless for it.
the idea of making Marauders MJD specialisits when in 'regular' [non-bastion] mode is terrible.., not practical for local travel, ie. navigating say, 50km to an object on-grid. It would lead to nasty dual-propulsion MJD+MWD ships that waste vital mid-slots.
Most impotantly of all, please don't remove all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls [as the latest update suggests], a boost to webs doesn't compensate for the removal of decent active tank when fighting multiple BS.
Hopefully any changes made to Marauders are more sympathetic and subtle then is currently being put forward.
Maybe a compromise can be reached by giving Marauders some sort of bonus to tanking, webs and damage output when in bastion mode at the expense of manouverability and the inability to warp or be remote-assisted, a kind of compromise between the first and second ideas that have been put forward by the devs.
It would be a shame to brutally shred it's original role and mutate / repurpose it into a new untested PvP niche. (there's enough PvP ships out there as it is) |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 15:47:00 -
[3230] - Quote
Rexxorr wrote:Tractor beam bonus plz :-) does not have to be as good as noctis, but a bit better.
Hmm pvp, how about this as a suggestion: Modules takes 50% less damage when over heated in bastion mode.
It would actually seem kinda more logical if Marauders actually had something that allowed far longer overheating, it would make more sense then Bastion mode, to me, at least. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
|

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 15:54:00 -
[3231] - Quote
i still still don't get why remote reps need to be locked out even when you give a bonus to local reps and resists. The marauder in any of the mentioned states current, vlossmail1, vabomination2 are not so powerful that remote reps should be locked out even given the 60 ew immunity. It doesn't have the HP to make the lockout reasonable like the dreads do, and it's cap drainable so 1 heavy neut = dead armor reper.
Leave RR in and lets see how it gets used if it's op and everyone starts using it with local and remote reps then put in a negative remote rep modifier.
again the entire problem is the XLASB x2.
Can we just make ASB a 1 per ship fitting rule already. Oversized ASBx2 on any ship makes it broken, and AAR aren't even comparable in effectiveness due to the 1 per ship rules. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
492
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 16:00:00 -
[3232] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:
Leave RR in and lets see how it gets used if it's op and everyone starts using it with local and remote reps then put in a negative remote rep modifier.
That is how you get blapped to do lack of buffer
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 16:04:00 -
[3233] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:if you don't care then why ask? and you yourself professing to having such experience and not sharing? It would seem you've reached the limits of your patience or knowledge or both? you won't be able to discredit my view by simply stating your dislike for my background, you'll need more of an effort than that - but i'll understand if you're not willing to exert the effort required.
nice words aligned up one after another... tons of jibrish.
take kronos and vindi - put them next to eachother, compare bonuses/slots/numbers if you make out that vindi is t1.5 compared to it then uhmm... good luck.
I dont care about your achievements and whatnot... and I asked because I hoped that you will at least be arsed enough to open attribute windows for different pirate bs and marauders - maybe you'd understand the point yourself. Nothing more.
this situation is not like "i have an opinion and I think that this is better" it's just facts.
but on the matter of proposed changes - your opinions are welcome and appreciated ofcourse.
DSpite Culhach wrote:Rexxorr wrote:Tractor beam bonus plz :-) does not have to be as good as noctis, but a bit better.
Hmm pvp, how about this as a suggestion: Modules takes 50% less damage when over heated in bastion mode. It would actually seem kinda more logical if Marauders actually had something that allowed far longer overheating, it would make more sense then Bastion mode, to me, at least.
I like that idea alot.
Bastion "like" module which transforms ship to allow extreme cooling of modules.
overheated weapons, utility, speed etc. and there - we have T2 bs worth using. But for pvp... still dunno, they need some more bonuses to justify 1bil + price. |

Detes cald
Argo Navis Ltd.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 16:12:00 -
[3234] - Quote
It seems good changes and the bastion could be some help!! but as i see at golem at least 7 mids means 5 left for tanking since the other 2 will be target paint and webber meaning 1 active booster !!! and whey removing the shield boosting bonus ?
why taking the drone bay you could only hit the bandwith!!
Oh well most ppl seems that they have told you so !! |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 16:46:00 -
[3235] - Quote
And the threadnaught of the week prize goes to... CCP Yitterbium What has he won? Well folks, he's won an all-expenses-paid trip... back to the drawing board. Hopefully he'll have a nice peaceful time of contemplation there. |

Dave Stark
3605
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 16:57:00 -
[3236] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Well folks, he's won an all-expenses-paid trip... back to the drawing board.
that's probably the best place to continue the marauder rebalance from.
it's clear that with the current proposal CCP have no idea what they want marauders to do. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1405
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:05:00 -
[3237] - Quote
This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:11:00 -
[3238] - Quote
I think the problem witth marauder is that ccp wants to make this super expensive ship pvp and pve capable. For having only 2 slots for rigs, most people will use T2 rigs that means the hull plus rigs alone will cost about 1.5 B . To risk a 1.5b bs in pvp people expect it to do alot because when it comes to pvp, people expect a certain amount of performance per isk spent. But in reality a navy BS is just as capable if not better than a marauder in pvp but cost only 1/3 or less.
if you consider marauder a pvp ship, it will never perform well when you consider how much isk/ time you have to spend on the ship so I think ccp should come out and say that marauder is only for pve that way the ships role is more defined and all the ideas should be how to balance this ship in terms of pve and survive from ganks in hostile environment. Lets face it, low ehp, low sensor strength, high cargo bay capacity, tractor beams.....that all pve . |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:21:00 -
[3239] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now?
1) 5% cap bonus / lvl should just be baked into the hull give a dps bonus instead. This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you.
2.) Might have originally be to counter the 1 sec crystal ammo changes that lasers can do. But no they should have 4 real bonuses like the other three marauders not 3 and " you will like a side of cap bonus with your armor repper?". |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
197
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:24:00 -
[3240] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? 1) 5% cap bonus / lvl should just be baked into the hull give a dps bonus instead. This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you. 2.) Might have originally be to counter the 1 sec crystal ammo changes that lasers can do. But no they should have 4 real bonuses like the other three marauders not 3 and " you will like a side of cap bonus with your armor repper?". The 1 sec crystal ammo change is offset by the fact that lasers can only deal EM/Therm damage. |
|

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1405
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:36:00 -
[3241] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you. yeah. this is why i'm trying to get more people to say "this is bad", because i don't believe anyone could possibly think this bonus is any good.
but there's not much talk of it, which makes it seem like a minor issue.
i'd like everyone who doesn't like it to say so, to make it very clear how bad this bonus is |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1191
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:48:00 -
[3242] - Quote
161 pages of "rubixcube" effect.
Soon Gäó we'll get another version closer to the real "plan" and the second part of this threadnaught will continue.
Keep the good stuff going, if it's cheap its good.  *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
302
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:54:00 -
[3243] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Wedgetail wrote:as for incursion fleets marauders >> pirate battleships BUT harder to skill into, trickier to support, and so less prevelant - they are however the most powerful of battleship hulls that can be fielded in that environment.
Hmm... do I understand that marauders ">> as in better >>" than pirate battleships but harder to skill into? well, there are rarely any marauder in incursion fleet tho because faction / pirate bs-es are just alot better and new changes will not make marauders more wanted in incursions either.
There are other aspects of EVE other than Vanguard fleets around the clock... How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:54:00 -
[3244] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Marco Uvex wrote:It looks to me as if Marauders going to be an expensive PvP tool? Just a guess: a) CCP could create a new line of Bs. PvP Specialised with web bonus.  b) On the other hand CCP could improve the Tank of Black Ops and give them web bonuses (or warp disruption bonuses). I play EvE now for more than two years and from my experience this are less used ships at the moment. It could be an advantage for Black Ops ships (  ) which have no meaning in PvE. This change may not be a welcome gift for the Marauder communitie (especially in Highsec). PvP is a big part of EvE but why transforming PvE in PvP? Please be more creative. They aren't useful for PVP with the altered change proposal. Now you have an expensive BS hull that either has normal weapons ranges, t2 resists, and a generous amount of utility highs or you have a sitting duck (unremote reppable, unmoving) but long ranged ship. Now, they *might* be usable as the first but then you've forced players to forego the bastion mechanic altogether in order to use them effectively for pvp. And as the second they are really, really unimpressive- no mobility, no remote reps, and the lack of a significant bonus to local reps means these things are just going to die even with the ranges they can engage in while bastioned. There is realistically only so much positioning you can gain even with a mjd because you will be still for an entire minute where your enemies will most likely not be. This makes the price point vs ship utility rather skewed to the point that you probably don't want to use them at all for pvp. The resist profile from t2 resists is only so useful when your engagement range is so limited, that you may as well use a t1 hull that can outrange them and effectively trade ship for ship against them. And being a near exclusively local rep tanker with range but no mobility just means you'll be eaten alive while in bastion. With the first round changes they were indeed insane for pve, but also had high potential for small and medium gang pvp- obviously large scale pvp and local reps don't really go together. Now the only place they'll be all that useful for pvp will be in alliance tournament-like environments.
Dont forget from your explanation, an inmobile ship is the best target. They dont have realy big HP amount buffer. So, rep bonus not realy helping when they get concentrated attacks, such as SB bombers attacks and dont need tracking for attackers when they maximising their DPS. Easy hunt them down in this bastion mode, and their pices is too high for PVP. This idea is very dumb in this form. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 18:19:00 -
[3245] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Shantetha wrote:This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you. yeah. this is why i'm trying to get more people to say "this is bad", because i don't believe anyone could possibly think this bonus is any good. but there's not much talk of it, which makes it seem like a minor issue. i'd like everyone who doesn't like it to say so, to make it very clear how bad this bonus is
Second it. Wrote that myself few times. But surprisingly Paladin seems to hold its own (only in PvE) even with two useless bonuses (cap and web). Still it should be changed to something more useful (hell, even -10% bonus on turrets cap use would work better though I hate that bonus altogether ). |

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
201
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 18:27:00 -
[3246] - Quote
Shantetha wrote: again the entire problem is the XLASB x2.
Can we just make ASB a 1 per ship fitting rule already. Oversized ASBx2 on any ship makes it broken, and AAR aren't even comparable in effectiveness due to the 1 per ship rules.
Seriously, 90% of the tanking related problems in this game stem from dual XLASB (or XLASB in general). The idea that a ship can fit not one, but two, oversized reps is ridiculous. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 18:34:00 -
[3247] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? 1) 5% cap bonus / lvl should just be baked into the hull give a dps bonus instead. This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you. 2.) Might have originally be to counter the 1 sec crystal ammo changes that lasers can do. But no they should have 4 real bonuses like the other three marauders not 3 and " you will like a side of cap bonus with your armor repper?".
Marauders absolutely shouldn't get double DPS bonuses. Honestly, the Paladin would be pretty perfect with the cap bonus rolled into the hull and given a tank and tracking bonus in place of it and the web bonus. |

James Sunder
572 CORP
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 18:35:00 -
[3248] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? There are many ships that are screwed over by a bonus that should be rolled into the hull/mod or a bonus that can only be used in active tanking and not both active and passive for example. As we know this is in no way balance. But if I have to get over such bonuses, everyone else should also.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The 1 sec crystal ammo change is offset by the fact that lasers can only deal EM/Therm damage. So tell me why hybrid weapons have a 5 sec ammo change when they only do Kin/Therm.
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1219
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 18:44:00 -
[3249] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:161 pages of "rubixcube" effect. Soon Gäó we'll get another version closer to the real "plan" and the second part of this threadnaught will continue. Keep the good stuff going, if it's cheap its good. 
I am betting this thread has a fair shot at 500 pages before the change are finalized. I am also betting on a 100 page Sisi feedback thread once the Marauder changes are available there.
CCP really does not have a clue what to do with this ship.
Here is a hint: not EVERY ship in the Eve universe has to be geared towards PvP. I can envision a situation where my Redeemer will be a better PvE ship than my Paladin, given the direction these changes are going. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 18:59:00 -
[3250] - Quote
James Sunder wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? There are many ships that are screwed over by a bonus that should be rolled into the hull/mod or a bonus that can only be used in active tanking and not both active and passive for example. As we know this is in no way balance. But if I have to get over such bonuses, everyone else should also. Ravasta Helugo wrote:The 1 sec crystal ammo change is offset by the fact that lasers can only deal EM/Therm damage. So tell me why hybrid weapons have a 5 sec ammo change when they only do Kin/Therm. Very short range |
|

AskariRising
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:23:00 -
[3251] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
web bonus on a golem is like giving a knife to a sniper... its not very useful at the ranges you'll want to be engaging at :/
web range though... would be very useful especially if i'm in bastion mode and need to slow someone trying to get close to me. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
352
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:37:00 -
[3252] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Well folks, he's won an all-expenses-paid trip... back to the drawing board. that's probably the best place to continue the marauder rebalance from. it's clear that with the current proposal CCP have no idea what they want marauders to do.
It's clear that all the players want to make marauders into their own personal solopwn boat. CCP needs to make these ships do into something more well defined and stop trying to make everyone happy with a ton of bonuses that are just a mishmash of legacy and new ideas shoved together. I would even say refund the skill points put into marauders with the update so people will stop whining about "I invested skill points and they're wasted."
Redefine the ship, don't try to please everyone, allow people to invest skillpoints training for it if the ship meets their needs. It really sounds like the easiest way when a ship needs to get redefined. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1407
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:41:00 -
[3253] - Quote
James Sunder wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? There are many ships that are screwed over by a bonus that should be rolled into the hull/mod or a bonus that can only be used in active tanking and not both active and passive for example. As we know this is in no way balance. But if I have to get over such bonuses, everyone else should also. That's bitter! But it appears you agree it's a bad bonus |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:46:00 -
[3254] - Quote
Rowells wrote:James Sunder wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:This is my third post on the topic, so I'm going to sound like a broken record, but
1) Does anyone think the 5% cap bonus on Amarr Battleships for the Paladin is useful or should stay?
2) Can anyone think of why the Paladin should only have three bonuses?
And if you don't like it, and haven't said so, can you say so now? There are many ships that are screwed over by a bonus that should be rolled into the hull/mod or a bonus that can only be used in active tanking and not both active and passive for example. As we know this is in no way balance. But if I have to get over such bonuses, everyone else should also. Ravasta Helugo wrote:The 1 sec crystal ammo change is offset by the fact that lasers can only deal EM/Therm damage. So tell me why hybrid weapons have a 5 sec ammo change when they only do Kin/Therm. Very short range **** loads of dps though But yes it should be rolled into the hull like the t1 If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Marco Uvex
New Eden Union Evil.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 20:11:00 -
[3255] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Well folks, he's won an all-expenses-paid trip... back to the drawing board. that's probably the best place to continue the marauder rebalance from. it's clear that with the current proposal CCP have no idea what they want marauders to do. It's clear that all the players want to make marauders into their own personal solopwn boat. CCP needs to make these ships do into something more well defined and stop trying to make everyone happy with a ton of bonuses that are just a mishmash of legacy and new ideas shoved together. I would even say refund the skill points put into marauders with the update so people will stop whining about "I invested skill points and they're wasted." Redefine the ship, don't try to please everyone, allow people to invest skillpoints training for it if the ship meets their needs. It really sounds like the easiest way when a ship needs to get redefined.
Yeah... and if I had known that a marauder don't meet my expectations today I never had skilled gunnery. Do you understand? Where you wanna stop with the refund?  |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
166
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 20:21:00 -
[3256] - Quote
These seems to be sticking points, I want to spell them out.
* A cost of over a Billion for the hull. * They have insane skill requirements. * They normally get another billion of bling to bring them up to a solid PvE ship. Just look at lossmails.
Any changes to the hulls should reflect that. Why on god green earth are people going to jump in this things when much cheaper stuff that does the job within a 10% margin is available?
I wanted to max out a rattler, so BS V in two races and AWD was a no brainer anyway, but the current status of Marauders seems ... rushed.
Hell, right now I'd take massive overburn duration with the penalty of not being able to repair my modules EVER over current ideas. Heck, massive overburn duration as long as your modules are faction or better. This way we can guarantee people will come after us all the time.
I still dream of mounting T3 subsystems on one of these things. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 20:25:00 -
[3257] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I still dream of mounting T3 subsystems on one of these things.
With the amount of people calling for a scripted bastion module I doubt your alone If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 20:27:00 -
[3258] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:
I still dream of mounting T3 subsystems on one of these things.
With the amount of people calling for a scripted bastion module I doubt your alone
i think really the only reason people want it to be scripted is as an alternative to the current design... people know ccp is unlikely to completely 180 their design so they want to offer a compromise XD |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:00:00 -
[3259] - Quote
Before you propose any new ideas CCP should think about few things:
1) Do you really want to force players to use certain modules on hulls (mjd, web, active rep)?
2) If u consider marauder rebalancing in relation to Pirate BS do you consider that Pirate BS will also get rebalanced (so for example adding dmg to maruaders can be countered by adding even more dmg to Pirate BS's)?
4) The same as above but with Black Ops?
3) do you want the bastion to be an essential module (like on dreads) or do you want it be just an optional module (the whole effort with hull transformation seems to suggest the latter).
4) do you really think that improving marauders in some ways has to come up at the cost of adding some drawbacks (less hp, less speed, more mass etc.)
5) Do you want marauders to be solo or fleet ships?
6) Can u really justify the whole thing with low sensor strenght?
7) Does the increased effectiveness in PvE has to come at a price of screwing the ship for PvP?
8) Do you have to put marauders in line with other ships (like giving standard T2 resists for their race even though they screw certain ships for PvE) or can make them unique?
9) Have you considered making a bastion do something opposite than it does now:
a) removing rep bonus, adding resists bonus and allowing rr (few marauders making a spider tank in bastion would be probably OP, but still balance that out by prolonging the bastion cycle). This would actually justify their immobile nature.
or
b) instead of making them mini dreads make them mini carriers: bastion would allow rr and it would give a 100% both to active repairer (for PvE) and to RR (for PvP). Than keeping range bonuses and not increasing dps would actually fit well with that role. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 23:11:00 -
[3260] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Well folks, he's won an all-expenses-paid trip... back to the drawing board. that's probably the best place to continue the marauder rebalance from. it's clear that with the current proposal CCP have no idea what they want marauders to do. It's clear that all the players want to make marauders into their own personal solopwn boat. CCP needs to make these ships do into something more well defined and stop trying to make everyone happy with a ton of bonuses that are just a mishmash of legacy and new ideas shoved together. I would even say refund the skill points put into marauders with the update so people will stop whining about "I invested skill points and they're wasted." Redefine the ship, don't try to please everyone, allow people to invest skillpoints training for it if the ship meets their needs. It really sounds like the easiest way when a ship needs to get redefined.
OK: as they are NOW marauders can already perform the role ccp's pinning the bastion module to them in order to force them to do, what bastion gives marauders is: it takes away any range bonus they may have had, bolts it to the bastion mod,
so marauders lose their damage projection and mobility combos they already have,
replaces it with a web bonus (this is the job of the supporting fleet, which with bastion you'll STILL NEED to stop your tagrets 100km away simply leaving)
IT REMOVES RR AID so i cannot use my utility high slots for RR mods, which is the most powerful utility a marauder has,
so i have these ships in game now, called marauders, that can strike out (some of them) to near odd 100km effectively with close range weapons, can move whenever they want, AND offer each other aid - at the cost of weak targeting speed and sensor strength, they are also MJD compatible being battleships,
and...you've gone and given me what i already had.....just forced me to bolt my self in one spot to do it...JUST so you could pretend to want to make the MJD work with the ship?
you want me to use the MJD give me the ability to set the range i can move otherwise i'll just position warp points which are far more useful, and don't require me to sit naked in front of my opposition.
you're doing the same thing to the marauders and the MJD you seemed to want to do with the active repair ships and the ASB's and that is force people to fit them to bloody everything just cuz you thought the idea was cool - i said this in my earlier posts... stop.
marauders as they are work fine in fleets when people can afford to use them and go through the effort to properly support them with sensors and tackle ((if you MUST have a tourney match where they did well to look at so you can go "oooo ahhh pretty ship tactics" HUN showed you last year most of how it's done.) - your rules disabled the RR part)
you force this and the golem and vargur become worthless, having spent all their mid slots trying to support the guns and being unable to fit tank (need at least 5 slots to tank mods) - being unable to receive aid or move on top of this is just lunacy.
the armor marauders can work with this, but again, lost their strength of mobility, lost the aid of their allies, they're going to die 800m + isk wasted just so you could see one or two jump drives spool.
if you wanna see marauders in pvp make em cheaper to use, they already do everything that needs to be done =/ i don't mind your fitting requirements changes but the rest of it is just..no (web bonus makes tracking bonus redundant - worked on the kronos cuz of its range but the other three don't need it - support fleets are support fleets for a purpose) |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 00:44:00 -
[3261] - Quote
Eridon Hermetz wrote:the problem with the bastion module is that make you immobile and eazy to blap so i don't understand why they want make their immobile , he was not really fast in fact without bastion XD
i just want to say , why they don't make it like a new line of black ops ships , the description are saying , sneak&attack beyond the ennemy line ...
You seem to be inserting words into the description, nothing here suggests a sneak-attack. Also the Marauders *still* have nothing to do with cloaking. I suggest you wait for the Black-Ops rebalance to start suggesting cloaky battleship ideas.
As for the "easy to blap" argument, just don't Bastion next to Dreadnaughts with Target Painter support...
Contrary to popular believe not everyone in Low and Null is waiting to drop Dreads and Carriers on you.
Also this is something of a moot point with me because if you missed it I've been arguing for Bastion to not be a required module for the ship to function.
Roime wrote:Making marauders better can't cure L4 runners or the missions and it's clear that straightforward buffs won't make marauders worse for L4s (it might force L4 runners to rethink, refit and adapt, which seems to be a major issue) but it can expand their use to other areas, and possibly even encourage L4 runners to something else for a change.
As it's been said numerous times, any T1 ship can run L4s efficiently- they should not be used as a yardstick for high performance ships. I'm personally eyeing marauders in PVE context as the default option for C3/4s and L5s, as well as plexing. The rationale behind is this- if you can solo content more efficiently than T3s with the same price tag, it's worth the risk, and if you can solo content where a carrier is viable, it's certainly less risky to use a battleship.
You seem to be missing a few facts. First, any T1 battleship does not, infact, make a good L4 mission ship. There are a few T1 Battleships that make good L4 mission ships, these are basically limited to the Raven and the Dominix, everything else just has a flat harder time of it and doesn't compete with Pirate Battleships or Marauders where they are currently.
The issue is not straight buffs, the issue is things that actually do make them worse for L4 running, like taking the repair bonus off the hull. Don't want to use Bastion? Woops, can't do L4s effectively anymore.
Onictus wrote:Than why are pirate BSs with straight out PVP bonuses better mission runners for two out of four of the pirate ships.
Mauraders main advantage is ammo saving and a monster cargohold.
Boring.
Actually their main advantage is having to use less modules on tanking and repair compared to the Pirate Battleships. The original concept built off of this, which was good and actually made them better than the Pirate Battleships for missions. The current iteration I like less and I dislike the idea of Bastion being required for the ships to mission effectively as a whole.
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Hmm... do I understand that marauders ">> as in better >>" than pirate battleships but harder to skill into?
well, there are rarely any marauder in incursion fleet tho because faction / pirate bs-es are just alot better and new changes will not make marauders more wanted in incursions either.
I somewhat disagree here. Full T2 resists is a pretty big buff to them as incursion ships, so is the web bonus (probably a bit too much so in this case)
The problem is that it comes at the expense of a lot of their other PvE utility.
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:nice words aligned up one after another... tons of jibrish.
take kronos and vindi - put them next to eachother, compare bonuses/slots/numbers if you make out that vindi is t1.5 compared to it then uhmm... good luck.
I dont care about your achievements and whatnot... and I asked because I hoped that you will at least be arsed enough to open attribute windows for different pirate bs and marauders - maybe you'd understand the point yourself. Nothing more.
this situation is not like "i have an opinion and I think that this is better" it's just facts.
but on the matter of proposed changes - your opinions are welcome and appreciated ofcourse.
The Kronos is actually only 12.5% lower DPS than the Vindi, has utility high slots, and better resists while having the same web bonus and tracking. The only reason the Vindi is "better" is because of the web bonus. If you remove that the Kronos just in its first proposal version is better for incursions.
With full T2 resists it can probably out-DPS the Vindi in assaults and HQs by being able to fit one more damage mod due to better resists. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 00:51:00 -
[3262] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Shantetha wrote:This is kinda duh at this point, which is prob why people haven't answered you. yeah. this is why i'm trying to get more people to say "this is bad", because i don't believe anyone could possibly think this bonus is any good. but there's not much talk of it, which makes it seem like a minor issue. i'd like everyone who doesn't like it to say so, to make it very clear how bad this bonus is
Cassius Invictus wrote:Second it. Wrote that myself few times. But surprisingly Paladin seems to hold its own (only in PvE) even with two useless bonuses (cap and web). Still it should be changed to something more useful (hell, even -10% bonus on turrets cap use would work better though I hate that bonus altogether ).
It already has better cap regen than any of the other Marauders, so it's more likely you'd only gain a bit more beyond what it already has and lose the rest of the bonus.
Also it already has a 50% cap use bonus, it's called 4 guns that do the damage of 8. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:10:00 -
[3263] - Quote
Massive Post Alert: Will try to format better (want table format codes!)
I've spent some time this afternoon working out some real numbers for the Paladin comparing the tanking capabilities of v1 and v2 of the rebalance proposals. I started with a 4 slot armor tank including a DCU2, 2x EANM2, and a repair module. This fit only leave room for 3 sinks in the lows, but can be made up for by fitting a T2 damage rig. I realized that you might want to run a 5 slot tank that includes a T2 nano pump to max repair amount. Those numbers are included for each repair module in the Repair Potential section of each fit.
Below are the first version numbers for the above fit with bastion not active. You'll see that the overall armor resists aren't too shabby even without T2 resists (EM/75,TH/68,KN/68,EX/70). The repair potential even for a LAR2 is well within tolerances for any level 4 mission and the DCU2 provides a healthy EHP total. However, when not in bastion you will still be popped quite easily by even a small group if you don't flee immediately.
Version 1 - Outside of Bastion
Resistances SheildEMTHKNEX Base02047.562.5 DCU212.53054.167.2
ArmorEMTHKNEX Base503534.440 DCU257.544.844.249 EANM268.158.658.261.75 EANM27567.667.370
HullEMTHKNEX Base0000 DCU260606060
EHPBaseEMTHKNEX Shield6300720090001372619207 Armor800032000246912446526667 Hull770019250192501925019250 Total2200058450529415744165124
Repair Potential EMTHKNEX LAR2450/s347/s344/s375/s +ANP2540/s416/s413/s450/s CorpusX709/s547/s542/s590/s +ANP2851/s656/s651/s708/s LAAR760/s586/s581/s633/s +ANP2912/s703/s697/s760/s
The following set of numbers reflect the version 1 bastion module being activated. This is the version with 30% universal (non-stacking) resists and 100% rep bonus. Your armor resist profile and EHP improve accordingly (EM/83,TH/77,KN/77,EX/79). You'd have the rep power and EHP to ensure that only a serious group of gankers would want to play ball as you become an annoying target if not a deadly one.
The other major benefit I see here is with the gain in resistances, you could run with 1 less EANM2 while maintaining strong resists which would open up a low slot for a forth heat sink. This would also recover that rig slot for other uses. It also allows you to downgrade your repair module to something less gank desirable and still be very efficient while running missions.
Version 1 - Bastion Active
Resistances SheildEMTHKNEX Base02047.562.5 DCU212.53054.167.2 Bastion38.755167.8777
ArmorEMTHKNEX Base503534.440 Bastion6554.554.1558 DCU270.2561.32561.02864.3 EANM277.6970.9970.7773.23 EANM282.5477.377.1379.05
HullEMTHKNEX Base0000 DCU260606060 Bastion72727272
EHPBaseEMTHKNEX Shield630010286128571960827391 Armor800045819352423498038186 Hull770027500275002750027500 Total2200083605755998208893077
Repair Potential EMTHKNEX LAR21288/s991/s983/s1074/s +ANP21546/s1189/s1180/s1289/s CorpusX2029/s1560/s1549/s1691/s +ANP22435/s1872/s1859/s2029/s LAAR2176/s1674/s1661/s1813/s +ANP22611/s2009/s1993/s2176/s
The numbers for the second version of the hulls and bastion module show how lackluster those changes are (at least for the Paladin). With the same number of tank slots allocated you wind up with slightly better resistances (EM/77,TH/71,KN/68,EX/83) but really only improved against Explosive damage with EM, Thermal, and Kenetic being nearly static. The problem is that as far as resistances go, you now HAVE to fit a 4 slot tank to fill the EM and Thermal holes in the T2 Amarr profile.
Another significant drawback to the second version is the new repair potential both outside of bastion and while it's active. You now must fit a LAAR or deadspace repair module to comfortably tank all level 4 missions/rooms. The T2 module is a little too light unless equiped along side a Nano Pump rig. You must enter bastion mode to obtain anywhere near the tanking power of the TQ version of the Paladin.
As far as fending off unwelcome guests, you are still quite vulnerable to even a small gang due to the reduced tank potential and also loss of EHP from the universal resists. The second version pretty much removes all fitting choses. Must have 4-5 slot tank. Must fit bastion module.
Version 2
Resistances SheildEMTHKNEX Base0207087.5 DCU212.53074.589.4
ArmorEMTHKNEX Base503562.580 DCU257.544.868.183 EEMM277.444.868.183 ETHM277.470.768.183
HullEMTHKNEX Base0000 DCU260606060
EHPBaseEMTHKNEX Shield6300720090001372619207 Armor800035398273042507847059 Hull770019250192501925019250 Total2200061848555545805485516
Repair Potential Outside of Bastion EMTHKNEX LAR2362/s279/s256/s481/s +ANP2434/s335/s307/s577/s CorpusX570/s440/s404/s758/s +ANP2684/s528/s485/s910/s LAAR611/s471/s433/s812/s +ANP2733/s565/s520/s975/s
Bastion Active EMTHKNEX LAR2724/s558/s512/s962/s +ANP2869/s670/s615/s1155/s CorpusX1140/s880/s808/s1516/s +ANP21368/s1056/s970/s1819/s LAAR1222/s942/s866/s1624/s +ANP21466/s1130/s1040/s1950/s
I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:27:00 -
[3264] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried.
The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:33:00 -
[3265] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Massive Post Alert: Will try to format better (want table format codes!)
I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
tyvm for the effort : and yes it's indicating what it was I said in my earlier posts, "must fit ship one way or fail"
as for the shield marauders being uber for missions this is because of how ccp have structured armor and shield doctrines since eons ago, shields is focused more on self recovery, its repair modules are simply "better", faster.
armor was meant for attrition warfare, long drawn out fighting where it could use high resistances and large EHP to be effective when aided by other hulls.
this is why you have slave and crystal implant sets, but not equivalents for each tank doctrine, "shields are for rapid HP in small fights and armor are for long drawn out slug fests"
again, I'm trying to point out the issue's not with the ships, but with the methods ccp are making them use, any ship can be made to do anything (yay battlebadger) but you need the versatility of module fits - as it is my pvp marauders use 2 Large shield transfers, 1 large cap xfer, 4 800mm guns, pair of tracking comps and tank (this is a vargur) they completely discard the active rep and tractor bonuses...cuz i don't need them/can't reliably use them in pvp (other ships make up for the absence (logis etc))
i won't need the bastion module, cuz it's going to hurt me more than it helps, it ruins my ability to relocate
i won't need the MJD because i can't move in a way that's not easily predictable, using the MJD will cripple me by forcing me to act in a way the opponent can already see coming.
^in pvp i probably would need to drop my tracking comps to support the MJD, which means no decent long range guns, which means a dead battleship.
in PVE the vargur suffers horribly for capacitor, while you're right in saying that the repair amounts are absurd (they're by design supposed to be) I can't fit energy vampires that the other three marauders can to offset the burn, nor have the power grid to use a cap booster well, were it nor for the fact the vargur has such amazing tracking speed (can hit and kill enemies faster) the maelstrom would be a better option.
ccp needs to keep ships and their bonuses as general/broad as they can, they seem to have subscribed to the ideas that:
"there are PVE and PVP ships and no matter what you do a PVP ship can't do PVE and a PVE ship can't PVP" when: there are PVE fittings and PVP fittings, that when applied to a ship make it good at PVE or PVP, a ship can perform any task depending on the fitting you've given it."
they really have to start playing their game again.... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:46:00 -
[3266] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried. The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists.
The spreadsheet I put together to generate these numbers are showing some pretty interesting things. Even with the second version, you can get better overall survivability out of only a 3 slot SHIELD tank even on the ARMOR hulls. My point was that most people will not drop an extra billion worth of faction/deadspace/officer modules onto the hull to reach those silly numbers for armor. Especially if you have to lock yourself in place for 60 seconds.
Being able to tank godly amounts of damage for minutes at a time can be fun. However for practical use, your cap boosters will eventually run out and the marauder class simply doesn't have enough DPS to be a huge threat while taking said damage.
What I'm trying to show by including real numbers of practical fits is that the exchange of T2 resists out of bastion doesn't necessarily gain you much in the way of tanking potential over the TQ version. The gain in effective health is tiny now that the base shield/armor/hull has been reduced overall. The T2 resists are partially cancelled out by that reduction. For example, the Vargur has significant gains in EHP against EM and Thermal but nothing for KN or EX. That only improves them against lasers and some specific ammunition types. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 02:40:00 -
[3267] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote: My point was that most people will not drop an extra billion worth of faction/deadspace/officer modules onto the hull to reach those silly numbers for armor. Especially if you have to lock yourself in place for 60 seconds This is what excites me the most. Rather than spending more isk on faction mods than the hull is worth to get a decent tank, you can get an amazing tank and focus on other things instead. 60 seconds may be a risky situation but i think there will be some interesting tactics to come out of this to maximize it's potential. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
175
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 02:48:00 -
[3268] - Quote
THESE STILL SUCK.
T2 resists = terrific. MJD = awesome. Other than that, everything else is still a mixed bag of snakes. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 03:30:00 -
[3269] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The spreadsheet I put together to generate these numbers are showing some pretty interesting things. Even with the second version, you can get better overall survivability out of only a 3 slot SHIELD tank even on the ARMOR hulls. My point was that most people will not drop an extra billion worth of faction/deadspace/officer modules onto the hull to reach those silly numbers for armor. Especially if you have to lock yourself in place for 60 seconds.
Being able to tank godly amounts of damage for minutes at a time can be fun. However for practical use, your cap boosters will eventually run out and the marauder class simply doesn't have enough DPS to be a huge threat while taking said damage.
What I'm trying to show by including real numbers of practical fits is that the exchange of T2 resists out of bastion doesn't necessarily gain you much in the way of tanking potential over the TQ version. The gain in effective health is tiny now that the base shield/armor/hull has been reduced overall. The T2 resists are partially cancelled out by that reduction. For example, the Vargur has significant gains in EHP against EM and Thermal but nothing for KN or EX. That only improves them against lasers and some specific ammunition types.
Overall they're not loosing much EHP by dropping raw hitpoints as long as they're gaining resists, either through T2 resists or Bastion or both. Rawr hitpoints don't matter very much for PvE though, and only matter marginally for PvP compared to the combination of raw hitpoints and resists values.
As for the shield vs armor debate, you can get pretty good tank out of armor due to better overall resists with less capacitor. Plus as you already pointed out, these ridiculous ASB tanking fits aren't terribly practical. Either way though the issue of ASBs vs AARs is only tangentially related to the Marauders. Maybe it deserves its own thread but that's up to CCP.
As for the T2 resists vs local repair bonus, I've mentioned that a good three or four times, specifically that it hurts the Vargur and Paladin for missions far more than the Golem or Kronos. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
198
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 03:42:00 -
[3270] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried. The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists. I think a fair compromise is to have T2 Resists, and then have Bastion give a further 20% unstacked bonus.
This simply replicates what many T2 ships have already: A 4% per level resistance bonus. However, this 20% would apply to shields, armor and hull at once.
T2 stays in place for incursions, but the EHP and more omni buff stays in place for Level 4 missions. And without introducing any ridiculous tank EFT-stats. Well, no more ridiculous than we see on current ships anyway. I do like the idea of this ship being the only one that can get >60% resists in hull though (my proposal would max out hull resists at 68%.) |
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
198
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 03:58:00 -
[3271] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote: I think a fair compromise is to have T2 Resists, and then have Bastion give a further 20% unstacked bonus.
This simply replicates what many T2 ships have already: A 4% per level resistance bonus. However, this 20% would apply to shields, armor and hull at once.
T2 stays in place for incursions, but the EHP and more omni buff stays in place for Level 4 missions. And without introducing any ridiculous tank EFT-stats. Well, no more ridiculous than we see on current ships, anyway. I do like the idea of this ship being the only one that can get >60% resists in hull though (my proposal would max out hull resists at 68%.)
EDIT: And put back my damned 37.5% Rep boost!
To illustrate:
Paladin v2
Armor UnBast/Bast Therm: 35% / 48% Kin: 62.5% / 70% Exp: 80% / 84% EM: 50% / 60%
Shield UnBast/Bast: Therm: 20% / 36% Kin: 70% / 76% Exp: 87.5% / 90% EM: 0% / 20%
Hull UnBast/Bast: Therm: 0% / 20% Kin: 0% / 20% Exp: 0% / 20% EM: 0% / 20% |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1509
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 04:09:00 -
[3272] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried. The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists. The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 04:20:00 -
[3273] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners. If only EVE had enough bruteforce ships for fleet work... |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
167
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 04:49:00 -
[3274] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I think a fair compromise is to have T2 Resists, and then have Bastion give a further 20% unstacked bonus.
This simply replicates what many T2 ships have already: A 4% per level resistance bonus. However, this 20% would apply to shields, armor and hull at once.
T2 stays in place for incursions, but the EHP and more omni buff stays in place for Level 4 missions. And without introducing any ridiculous tank EFT-stats. Well, no more ridiculous than we see on current ships, anyway. I do like the idea of this ship being the only one that can get >60% resists in hull though (my proposal would max out hull resists at 68%.)
EDIT: And put back my damned 37.5% Rep boost!
I am more than a little concerned about 500k EHP battleships with various fleet boosts and other fun things included. Though more because of the possible solo and small gang implications than because of the large-fleet use-case. Anything dies to enough alpha in a fleet, but for a 10v10 situation having twice the EHP of the other side can be pretty darn powerful.
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.
I wouldn't even say fleet, I'd just say PvP people in general. Several of the same people who came out of the woodwork after the Command Links were nerfed were pushing for the web bonus to be reinstated and for the ships to get full T2 resists.
Other than that, can't really disagree with you. 
As much as I like the idea of being able to tank half the mission rats in the game with just a large armor repairer and an EANM on my Kronos I don't exactly think that's good PvE balance between ships....  |

Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
894
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 05:03:00 -
[3275] - Quote
Fearless ballsy idea... I'm going to write the next sentence in all caps so you clowns at CCP get the idea.
THIS IS THE MINDSET YOU SHOULD OF HAD WHEN YOU REBALANCED HACS / COMMANDSHIPS. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3353
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 06:01:00 -
[3276] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried. The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists. The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.
Do you find the T2 resists somehow bad for non-fleet whiners? Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1509
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 06:23:00 -
[3277] - Quote
Roime wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried. The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists. The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners. Do you find the T2 resists somehow bad for non-fleet whiners? I can't remember the specific wording of it but here goes. Anything that is beneficial to a solo to small gang become exponentially more powerful with increasing fleet members.
The only exception to this I can think of is local rep bonuses. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3353
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 06:41:00 -
[3278] - Quote
The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot.
Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1509
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:02:00 -
[3279] - Quote
Roime wrote:The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair).
That is what I would call a niche PvP situation. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3353
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:08:00 -
[3280] - Quote
Ships aren't rebalanced to be OP in niche situations. Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:11:00 -
[3281] - Quote
Roime wrote:The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot. While T2 resists can increase the viability of a ship in an omni tank role, they don't really do much to help marauders as currently proposed. Specifically they don't make them more attractive, even selectively in most scenarios, than really anything else. That means while their viability in a vaccumm seems better, their viability in the game as a whole still remains negligible on top on losing use as they are currently employed due to tank loss against specific damage types. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
168
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:17:00 -
[3282] - Quote
Roime wrote:The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot.
The problem with this is that adding T2 resists while removing the repair bonus on the hulls makes the Paladin and Vargur worse for solo PvE than they are on TQ currently while giving the Kronos and Golem a rather large boost. Unless of course you factor in Bastion but that means you either use the module or you can't mission in them effectively anymore and not everyone is going to want to do that.
Roime wrote:Ships aren't rebalanced to be OP in niche situations.
No, they're rebalanced to be useful in niche situations (at least T2 ships are), which by definition means "better than other available options in that role". |

sabastyian
United Nations Space Coalition
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:53:00 -
[3283] - Quote
I feel like the kronos should keep its web bonuses ( maybe nerf a little....maybe ) and it should get the rep bonus back in place of the range. With these changes and the bastion module, my math was showing a paladin able to hit to like 130-135km with scorch...... 700ish dps at 135km? More Powergrid/Cpu Keep drone bays ( battleships without them are destroyed ) Replace the range bonus for the old rep bonus Change the bastion module in some way to make it more useful then getting blapped by the first dreadnought or arty fleet that sees you, and in the current state it will dominate any small gang without logi. Do not nerf speed, my nidhoggur is faster then half of those marauders. Keep the sensor strength low ( smartbomb for ecm drones ) and the trade off is high dps, high tank for ability to be jammed when not in bastion ( there you just get lolblapped by the first arty fleet/dread ) The web bonus on the vargur and golem need to go..... those ships are just not designed for close range combat Web bonus on paladin should be changed to be similar to that of the bhaalgorn ( keeping it in check with the race ) |

Zoe Israfil
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:03:00 -
[3284] - Quote
I initially supported the version one re-balancing ideas, then I was disgusted by the version two revamp. After taking a step back I still think the overall change is positive and I may have been too quick to judge.
I'd like to start within the current paradigm of marauders. Currently the exists as a lvl 4 high sec missioning platform that mostly tailors to users who like to run a single account (some exceptions of course). They are also very solid misisoning ships and perhaps even people who have alts are drawn to them over faction battleships. They have a very limited function outside of this paradigm. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but they are not often used in PVP, they are not a current / past doctrine ship for any fleet op / alliance, they generally are not used within wormholes, and they are not typically used for exploration. There is a major exception for null/low sec players who may use them to run anoms/and possibly signatures. In short, they excel at solo/small gang "elite" PVE.
Enter the "mini-dread" of the future....
The revamped ships gain in damage projection and local tank. I'm still not sure how I would classify the changes to mobility. They should be able to move around grid relatively effectively, though in missions I have reservations about trips 30-50 k ( I know you can use a triangle pattern but how easy/effective that solution is is for me untested). They gain T2 resists. They TRANSFORM! (I like this feature even if it's a vanity).
The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
I think overall the changes do exactly what CCP was aiming for. Buff the marauder class, while expanding it's potential into other areas of the game (mainly pvp/small gang ops). I think what they have proposed is quite effectively accomplishing this goal. I personally made the mistake of OMG LOSING +30% RESISTS SO THEY MUST SUCK NOW.... After a second look these still look good to me.
|

Stirlsha
Mostly Harmful Pirate Corp Black Core Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:40:00 -
[3285] - Quote
Zoe Israfil wrote:I initially supported the version one re-balancing ideas, then I was disgusted by the version two revamp. After taking a step back I still think the overall change is positive and I may have been too quick to judge.
I'd like to start within the current paradigm of marauders. Currently the exists as a lvl 4 high sec missioning platform that mostly tailors to users who like to run a single account (some exceptions of course). They are also very solid misisoning ships and perhaps even people who have alts are drawn to them over faction battleships. They have a very limited function outside of this paradigm. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but they are not often used in PVP, they are not a current / past doctrine ship for any fleet op / alliance, they generally are not used within wormholes, and they are not typically used for exploration. There is a major exception for null/low sec players who may use them to run anoms/and possibly signatures. In short, they excel at solo/small gang "elite" PVE.
Enter the "mini-dread" of the future....
The revamped ships gain in damage projection and local tank. I'm still not sure how I would classify the changes to mobility. They should be able to move around grid relatively effectively, though in missions I have reservations about trips 30-50 k ( I know you can use a triangle pattern but how easy/effective that solution is is for me untested). They gain T2 resists. They TRANSFORM! (I like this feature even if it's a vanity).
The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
I think overall the changes do exactly what CCP was aiming for. Buff the marauder class, while expanding it's potential into other areas of the game (mainly pvp/small gang ops). I think what they have proposed is quite effectively accomplishing this goal. I personally made the mistake of OMG LOSING +30% RESISTS SO THEY MUST SUCK NOW.... After a second look these still look good to me.
Exactly how I feel. Well said.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:45:00 -
[3286] - Quote
Stirlsha wrote:Zoe Israfil wrote:I initially supported the version one re-balancing ideas, then I was disgusted by the version two revamp. After taking a step back I still think the overall change is positive and I may have been too quick to judge.
I'd like to start within the current paradigm of marauders. Currently the exists as a lvl 4 high sec missioning platform that mostly tailors to users who like to run a single account (some exceptions of course). They are also very solid misisoning ships and perhaps even people who have alts are drawn to them over faction battleships. They have a very limited function outside of this paradigm. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but they are not often used in PVP, they are not a current / past doctrine ship for any fleet op / alliance, they generally are not used within wormholes, and they are not typically used for exploration. There is a major exception for null/low sec players who may use them to run anoms/and possibly signatures. In short, they excel at solo/small gang "elite" PVE.
Enter the "mini-dread" of the future....
The revamped ships gain in damage projection and local tank. I'm still not sure how I would classify the changes to mobility. They should be able to move around grid relatively effectively, though in missions I have reservations about trips 30-50 k ( I know you can use a triangle pattern but how easy/effective that solution is is for me untested). They gain T2 resists. They TRANSFORM! (I like this feature even if it's a vanity).
The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
I think overall the changes do exactly what CCP was aiming for. Buff the marauder class, while expanding it's potential into other areas of the game (mainly pvp/small gang ops). I think what they have proposed is quite effectively accomplishing this goal. I personally made the mistake of OMG LOSING +30% RESISTS SO THEY MUST SUCK NOW.... After a second look these still look good to me.
Exactly how I feel. Well said. Neither of Ye are paladin pilots are Ye? If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
171
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:45:00 -
[3287] - Quote
sabastyian wrote:I feel like the kronos should keep its web bonuses ( maybe nerf a little....maybe ) and it should get the rep bonus back in place of the range. With these changes and the bastion module, my math was showing a paladin able to hit to like 130-135km with scorch...... 700ish dps at 135km? More Powergrid/Cpu Keep drone bays ( battleships without them are destroyed ) Replace the range bonus for the old rep bonus Change the bastion module in some way to make it more useful then getting blapped by the first dreadnought or arty fleet that sees you, and in the current state it will dominate any small gang without logi. Do not nerf speed, my nidhoggur is faster then half of those marauders. Keep the sensor strength low ( smartbomb for ecm drones ) and the trade off is high dps, high tank for ability to be jammed when not in bastion ( there you just get lolblapped by the first arty fleet/dread ) The web bonus on the vargur and golem need to go..... those ships are just not designed for close range combat Web bonus on paladin should be changed to be similar to that of the bhaalgorn ( keeping it in check with the race )
The falloff bonus is more useful in more situations, especially PvE, than the web bonus and less over-powered.
Beyond that you don't provide a very good argument for most of your proposals beyond "this is what I want". Don't nerf speed? These are tanky battleships, there are already plenty of battleships out there slower than your Nidhoggur. Also not everyone fights Dreadnaughts and pretty much anything is susceptible to blapping/alpha no matter what. Balancing against this is not productive.
These are also not supposed to be top-tier DPS ships.
Overall it looks like what you're asking for is Battleship sized HACs with more drone-bay. How is that even remotely balanced?
Zoe Israfil wrote: The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed.
For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 09:05:00 -
[3288] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:THESE STILL SUCK.
T2 resists = terrific. MJD = awesome. Other than that, everything else is still a mixed bag of snakes.
true
get rid of the web bonus its the most horrible thing that happened since start of this rebalance |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 09:18:00 -
[3289] - Quote
if I will get at least this :
Armor Therm: 35% Kin: 62.5% Exp: 80% EM: 50%
it will be pretty OK and I can live without bonus repair amount because it will be even few percent better in my setup than original state. (aproximaltely 10 - 13% based on set up)
But I am really not sure that T2 ressist means that I will get ressists of heavy assault ships :-) (who know what they mean by saying T2 resists). Can someone confirm me this?
The another thing is bonus to webifier (its really nice) but I have only 4 medium slots so it will be really hard to fit it on Paladin. 1 MJD, at least 1 ENG CAP (something) ..... 2 slots left and so many options :-).
I would rather prefer different bonus or at least get the "great bonus" to range of webifier too and not only velocity bonus.
I can easily fit it on Golem and have a afterburner / MJD / webifier / cap stable and better tank than paladin :-) / same amount of damage increasing modules...
But to be honest I think that main reason for this is that ACTIVE SHIELD TANK is much much much better than ACTIVE ARMOR TANK...
I really think that they should start with balancing here. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 09:42:00 -
[3290] - Quote
Isinero wrote:But I am really not sure that T2 ressist means that I will get ressists of heavy assault ships :-) (who know what they mean by saying T2 resists). Can someone confirm me this? There are precise numbers in the OP. Basically, yours are correct. |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:11:00 -
[3291] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners. If only EVE had enough bruteforce ships for fleet work...
Although we do lack somethign to bridge the gap (that is HUGE) between Battleships and Capital ships. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:14:00 -
[3292] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:sabastyian wrote:I feel like the kronos should keep its web bonuses ( maybe nerf a little....maybe ) and it should get the rep bonus back in place of the range. With these changes and the bastion module, my math was showing a paladin able to hit to like 130-135km with scorch...... 700ish dps at 135km? More Powergrid/Cpu Keep drone bays ( battleships without them are destroyed ) Replace the range bonus for the old rep bonus Change the bastion module in some way to make it more useful then getting blapped by the first dreadnought or arty fleet that sees you, and in the current state it will dominate any small gang without logi. Do not nerf speed, my nidhoggur is faster then half of those marauders. Keep the sensor strength low ( smartbomb for ecm drones ) and the trade off is high dps, high tank for ability to be jammed when not in bastion ( there you just get lolblapped by the first arty fleet/dread ) The web bonus on the vargur and golem need to go..... those ships are just not designed for close range combat Web bonus on paladin should be changed to be similar to that of the bhaalgorn ( keeping it in check with the race ) The falloff bonus is more useful in more situations, especially PvE, than the web bonus and less over-powered. Beyond that you don't provide a very good argument for most of your proposals beyond "this is what I want". Don't nerf speed? These are tanky battleships, there are already plenty of battleships out there slower than your Nidhoggur. Also not everyone fights Dreadnaughts and pretty much anything is susceptible to blapping/alpha no matter what. Balancing against this is not productive. These are also not supposed to be top-tier DPS ships. Overall it looks like what you're asking for is Battleship sized HACs with more drone-bay. How is that even remotely balanced? Zoe Israfil wrote: The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed. For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here.
Considering tanking is NOT the hard part on a LEvel 4...
If you guys want some buff that pleases GOOD l4 runners (not the noobish ones that think the more tank the better) And also please PVPers, add an extra damage bonus or an extra weapon.
|

Lord Vimuhla
ABC Warriors
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:16:00 -
[3293] - Quote
HAIKU
command ships now crap please keep your sticky fingers off our marauders
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
120
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:19:00 -
[3294] - Quote
Hell no, keep nerfing bitter vets! xD |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:20:00 -
[3295] - Quote
Detes cald wrote:It seems good changes and the bastion could be some help!! but as i see at golem at least 7 mids means 5 left for tanking since the other 2 will be target paint and webber meaning 1 active booster !!! and whey removing the shield boosting bonus ?
why taking the drone bay you could only hit the bandwith!!
Oh well most ppl seems that they have told you so !!
And a single Shield Booster , 2 hardeners and 1 DC 2 is more than enough to tank ANY level 4, even if you are not doign them perfectly.
Why in hell people liek so much of OVERTANKING? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
177
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:25:00 -
[3296] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed. For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here.
Thanks for the read. I would surmise that for missions you are correct, but what about PvP? Note that Caldari ships suck for EM resistance (typically 0-20), but with two T2 EM amplifiers it's easy to get this into the high 60's and low 70's without much effort. I imagine the same would be true for kinetic and thermal on the Vargur and Paladin. Let's also not forget that there are no shield strength implants, so it's quite easy to turn the Paladin into a flying brick with a set of Slave implants.
What I wouldn't mind seeing for Marauders is a set of short and long-range skills (instead of the fixed stasis web):
GÇó Paladin: Tracking, Damage GÇó Golem: Target Painter, Missile Velocity GÇó Kronos: Tracking, Optimal GÇó Vargur: Stasis Web, Falloff
I still think that if Bastion is going to reduce your speed to zero it should also compensate for the immobility by increasing tracking speed and explosion radius, increasing rate of fire by 50% and doubling the load time. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 10:36:00 -
[3297] - Quote
Zoe Israfil wrote:I I think overall the changes do exactly what CCP was aiming for. Buff the marauder class, while expanding it's potential into other areas of the game (mainly pvp/small gang ops). I think what they have proposed is quite effectively accomplishing this goal. I personally made the mistake of OMG LOSING +30% RESISTS SO THEY MUST SUCK NOW.... After a second look these still look good to me.
ccp hasn't given them anything they don't already have in combat,
what bastion does is remove the two key elements any gang fleet relies on to survive, this proposal has been based around a very specific engagement scenario that 19 in every 20 times does not exist.
(yes that number is pulled out of my **** but think for a moment, of all the potential situations you could encounter on undocking your ship to go look for a fight, how many of them would be beneficial to you and your team? CCP has proposed this ship with only one situation in mind, cuz it's the shiniest coolest looking situation they can think of, and they have excluded from their mind all other considerations)
bastion removes me (as a marauder pilot) from the ability to run away, it removes me from the aid of my allies, and it gives me a set of bonuses that will only cause me to die, NOBODY wins a fight by relying on the power of just their own ship NOBODY - if you want to win you have to use the strength of others, as an example no matter how much money i throw at my marauder's tank - logi cruisers will still do a better job at keeping me alive than a damn ASB fit ever can and for less isk.
what rules the battle field at the gang level is not specialising in a single task, but being able to rapidly adjust (as they say in the OP, they want a ship that can adapt quickly to battle field change, then go and remove the things allowing the ship to do just that)
battle field changes at the gang level allow you mere seconds to change...not minutes...if you've taken a minute to react you've lost =/ sorry guys, but aside the small reisist buff they get there's nothin here that'll make marauders any better at pvp, nothing they don't already do now they won't be doing afterwards, and they're still too expensive for the task to be viable (loki and tengu gangs much faster, just as hard hitting, better defense profile - which is why you see those) |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:02:00 -
[3298] - Quote
What I would like to see instead, given the name bastion (a "safe place to run to when you're in danger")
is to use the bastion module not as a personal defense, but a FLEET DEFENSE mechanism, and it can achieve this through offensive tactics, put the MJD bonus onto the bastion mod, disable all other movement BUT the MJD ( so i can jump....ONCE)
keep resistance penalty, EWAR immunity and lock out of RR, drop my weapon range by half, increase damage by 15-30%(the idea being to force my ship into a "do or die mode")
the purpose is to use this ship now to break a death lock, as i can enter very quickly but not leave this state i must be careful how i use it, and when - but by doing this i gain, like overheat a very self harming but powerful means of defending my fleet by killing the ships killing them, if you wann amake fighting interesting you must build mechanics that allow for these choices, choices to lose to save the rest, avoid your current attempts at designing doctrines that keep out of harms way, and encourage people to do what must be done when it has to be done. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
166
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:13:00 -
[3299] - Quote
Since they can mount a Target Spectrum Breaker, seems like it would be fun to land in the middle of people, go Bastion, and open up with FoF's.
Sarcasm aside, could one of these hull in Bastion mode tank that weird 10/10 where that bad guy lobs 40K torpedoes at you? It sorta feel like it should. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:20:00 -
[3300] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Considering tanking is NOT the hard part on a LEvel 4...
If you guys want some buff that pleases GOOD l4 runners (not the noobish ones that think the more tank the better) And also please PVPers, add an extra damage bonus or an extra weapon.
The trick is that the better you tank the less modules you have to devote to said tank and the more you can devote to actually finishing the mission in a timely and efficient manner :)
Therefore anything that nerfs your local tank is bad news for a mission ship.
Kagura Nikon wrote:And a single Shield Booster , 2 hardeners and 1 DC 2 is more than enough to tank ANY level 4, even if you are not doign them perfectly.
Why in hell people liek so much of OVERTANKING?
FYI no it's not, you will find yourself having to warp out of most of the harder but higher bounty missions doing this "if you are not doing them perfectly"
Seriously when did you last do a mission and have you ever had to deal with neuting battleships in them? 
Isinero wrote:if I will get at least this :
Armor Therm: 35% Kin: 62.5% Exp: 80% EM: 50%
it will be pretty OK and I can live without bonus repair amount because it will be even few percent better in my setup than original state. (aproximaltely 10 - 13% based on set up)
But I am really not sure that T2 ressist means that I will get ressists of heavy assault ships :-) (who know what they mean by saying T2 resists). Can someone confirm me this?
The another thing is bonus to webifier (its really nice) but I have only 4 medium slots so it will be really hard to fit it on Paladin. 1 MJD, at least 1 ENG CAP (something) ..... 2 slots left and so many options :-).
I would rather prefer different bonus or at least get the "great bonus" to range of webifier too and not only velocity bonus.
I can easily fit it on Golem and have a afterburner / MJD / webifier / cap stable and better tank than paladin :-) / same amount of damage increasing modules...
But to be honest I think that main reason for this is that ACTIVE SHIELD TANK is much much much better than ACTIVE ARMOR TANK...
I really think that they should start with balancing here.
As someone already pointed out resists are posted in the OP.
Any ship with a bonus to web range and velocity can effectively hold and blap frigates and cruisers at absurd range without them being able to do anything about it, plus it can potentially do this to more or less the entire radius of even a quite large Stargate...
To say that giving bonus bonuses to one ship would be imbalanced would be something of an understatement.
Active tanking as it currently stands is intentional on CCP's part and this is probably not the thread to get into a huge debate on "fixing" it. Armor gets better resists, shield gets better active modules that eat more cap. *Tradeoffs* 
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Thanks for the read. I would surmise that for missions you are correct, but what about PvP? Note that Caldari ships suck for EM resistance (typically 0-20), but with two T2 EM amplifiers it's easy to get this into the high 60's and low 70's without much effort. I imagine the same would be true for kinetic and thermal on the Vargur and Paladin. Let's also not forget that there are no shield strength implants, so it's quite easy to turn the Paladin into a flying brick with a set of Slave implants.
What I wouldn't mind seeing for Marauders is a set of short and long-range skills (instead of the fixed stasis web):
GÇó Paladin: Tracking, Damage GÇó Golem: Target Painter, Missile Velocity GÇó Kronos: Tracking, Optimal GÇó Vargur: Stasis Web, Falloff
I still think that if Bastion is going to reduce your speed to zero it should also compensate for the immobility by increasing tracking speed and explosion radius, increasing rate of fire by 50% and doubling the load time.
DPS boosts on Bastion are a bad idea. For reference as to why look up "Dread-Blapping". These are not supposed to be hyper-DPS battleships.
In general T2 resists provide similar bonuses to tanking, it's just a little harder to find a hole in a Minmattar shield tank or Amarr armor tank. As a rule you'll rarely find an EM hole in a caldari shield tank or an explosive hole in a Gallente armor tank. Also the damage distribution on weapons is still pretty heavily Kin/Therm weighted even in PvP so a heavy Kin/Therm tank can actually be more useful than the Explosive and EM resists on Amarr and Minmattar ships respectively (it does absolutely nothing against Hybrids, for example)
The general consensus from the Vargur crowd is that the Vargur is not a good ship for a web bonus.
Also these ships have four bonuses, not two and need to be flexible enough in range selection for missions. In general I'm a fan of seeing a range and damage application bonus on all four, possibly even two damage application bonuses. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:22:00 -
[3301] - Quote
The call for better tanking potential isn't so you can run with that full tank. It's so you have the option to:
- Replace a resistance module to gain DPS
- Downgrade the repair module meta to become less of a gank target
- Have enough EHP to discourage being ganked in high sec
That list is based on a PVE point of view. It provides the pilot with options while maintaining the efficiency inherent in the hull class's ability to run missions (today's focus). I don't think many of the posters here think they need the tank to survive level 4 mission content.
From a PVP standpoint, the T2 resists do provide additional EHP and synergy with RR. However, due to the slot layout of the hulls, this will come at the cost of DPS in most cases. You can't bastion or you lose your RR. So you are stuck with crap sensor strength. You can fit a Sebo or SigAmp but that's even more DPS or tank you have to give up.
As far as fitting options go, if you actually put together fits for the latest version of the proposal you'll see that you still have to fit the same number of tank modules to produce a viable omni-tank as you did before with only a marginal gain in resists.
Paladin TQ - DCU2, 2x EANM2 EM 75% TH 67.6% KN 67.3% EX 70%
Paladin v2 w/ T2 resists - DCU2, EEMM2, ETHM2 EM 77.4% TH 70.7% KN 68.1% EX 83%
Besides the significant increase in durability against Explosive damage you really aren't gaining much in the way of resists with T2 and the same number of tanking modules. You gained a 7-8% damage reduction when paired with your racial targets at the cost of 37.5% of your local repair potential. Yes you do gain something from T2 resists over TQ but it's not this magical thing that everyone seems to think it is. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:29:00 -
[3302] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:ccp hasn't given them anything they don't already have in combat,
what bastion does is remove the two key elements any gang fleet relies on to survive, this proposal has been based around a very specific engagement scenario that 19 in every 20 times does not exist.
(yes that number is pulled out of my **** but think for a moment, of all the potential situations you could encounter on undocking your ship to go look for a fight, how many of them would be beneficial to you and your team? CCP has proposed this ship with only one situation in mind, cuz it's the shiniest coolest looking situation they can think of, and they have excluded from their mind all other considerations)
This rings blatantly false to me. CCP have created something designed for PvE and said "lets see what the PvP crowd does with it". Not designed the module for PvP.
Wedgetail wrote:bastion removes me (as a marauder pilot) from the ability to run away, it removes me from the aid of my allies, and it gives me a set of bonuses that will only cause me to die, NOBODY wins a fight by relying on the power of just their own ship NOBODY - if you want to win you have to use the strength of others, as an example no matter how much money i throw at my marauder's tank - logi cruisers will still do a better job at keeping me alive than a damn ASB fit ever can and for less isk.
what rules the battle field at the gang level is not specialising in a single task, but being able to rapidly adjust (as they say in the OP, they want a ship that can adapt quickly to battle field change, then go and remove the things allowing the ship to do just that)
battle field changes at the gang level allow you mere seconds to change...not minutes...if you've taken a minute to react you've lost =/ sorry guys, but aside the small reisist buff they get there's nothin here that'll make marauders any better at pvp, nothing they don't already do now they won't be doing afterwards, and they're still too expensive for the task to be viable (loki and tengu gangs much faster, just as hard hitting, better defense profile - which is why you see those)
In the OP "adapt to battlefield changes" very clearly refers to the MJD and its ability to move you around the battlefield quickly, nothing more. Under your definition these ships should have an 8/8/8 slot layout so it can fit for every possible contingency.
Also T2 ships in general are specialized and small gangs tend to be specialized to one degree or another with various people flying tackle, DD, and various types of support like Logi, EWar, and Command Links.
T3s actually don't do as much damage as battleships (not sure where that rumor came from) and cost has never been a factor to some people, whether it's PvP or PvE. If someone finds a use for the ship where it's marginally better than a similar hull then the ship will get used by people with ISK and the desire to win.
Wedgetail wrote:What I would like to see instead, given the name bastion (a "safe place to run to when you're in danger")
is to use the bastion module not as a personal defense, but a FLEET DEFENSE mechanism, and it can achieve this through offensive tactics, put the MJD bonus onto the bastion mod, disable all other movement BUT the MJD ( so i can jump....ONCE)
keep resistance penalty, EWAR immunity and lock out of RR, drop my weapon range by half, increase damage by 15-30%(the idea being to force my ship into a "do or die mode")
the purpose is to use this ship now to break a death lock, as i can enter very quickly but not leave this state i must be careful how i use it, and when - but by doing this i gain, like overheat a very self harming but powerful means of defending my fleet by killing the ships killing them, if you wann amake fighting interesting you must build mechanics that allow for these choices, choices to lose to save the rest, avoid your current attempts at designing doctrines that keep out of harms way, and encourage people to do what must be done when it has to be done.
This would kind of be ridiculously over-powered. Just for a start you can jump through into a gate-camp, align, Bastion, and then start shelling them from 100km away, probably well out of any bubbles and likely out of their engagement range as well. Meanwhile your Heavy Tackle has jumped through and the enemy is at best trying to rally and get a warp-in, at worst they're scattering with several of them pinned down by your heavy tackle.
Part of what makes the whole E-War immunity package vaguely balanced is that you can't be tackled but you also don't need to be. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:42:00 -
[3303] - Quote
I was going to respond to that last point there but I had a feeling you would put it in a Farr more concise manner, good job. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:47:00 -
[3304] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This rings blatantly false to me. CCP have created something designed for PvE and said "lets see what the PvP crowd does with it". Not designed the module for PvP.
In the OP "adapt to battlefield changes" very clearly refers to the MJD and its ability to move you around the battlefield quickly, nothing more. Under your definition these ships should have an 8/8/8 slot layout so it can fit for every possible contingency.
Also T2 ships in general are specialized and small gangs tend to be specialized to one degree or another with various people flying tackle, DD, and various types of support like Logi, EWar, and Command Links.
T3s actually don't do as much damage as battleships (not sure where that rumor came from) and cost has never been a factor to some people, whether it's PvP or PvE. If someone finds a use for the ship where it's marginally better than a similar hull then the ship will get used by people with ISK and the desire to win.
the ideas here were that:
ships in gangs must be more versatile than in blob fleets, therefore must be able to cope with a wider variety of situations, what they cannot do themselves they must draw from other ships in the gang, t3's are very good platforms for doing this and for their size the damage output is colossal - they are also easier to defend due to a smaller profile and higher speed, for less isk, making them a preferred choice over a battleship for gang combat.
the marauder's power in a gang comes from its wide fire arc and its utility high slots - not its active repair bonuses, one ship cannot defend against 10 ( see alliance tourney for a readily available example) - this is why logistics is limited to one ship per team, in reality there is no limit.
yes, the idea was to use the MJD, but to use the MJD i must forego the use of my ASB or my resistances or my tracking computers or a web, i will lose something as i have no room in mids - therefore I must focus all of my attention into my guns and the MJD to use this doctrine well, and rely on everyone else to keep me alive..which they can't do cuz..logi can't rep me glass cannon doctrine is glass cannon.
Wedgetail wrote:What I would like to see instead, given the name bastion (a "safe place to run to when you're in danger")
is to use the bastion module not as a personal defense, but a FLEET DEFENSE mechanism, and it can achieve this through offensive tactics, put the MJD bonus onto the bastion mod, disable all other movement BUT the MJD ( so i can jump....ONCE)
keep resistance penalty, EWAR immunity and lock out of RR, drop my weapon range by half, increase damage by 15-30%(the idea being to force my ship into a "do or die mode") .
This would kind of be ridiculously over-powered. Just for a start you can jump through into a gate-camp, align, Bastion, and then start shelling them from 100km away, probably well out of any bubbles and likely out of their engagement range as well. Meanwhile your Heavy Tackle has jumped through and the enemy is at best trying to rally and get a warp-in, at worst they're scattering with several of them pinned down by your heavy tackle.
Part of what makes the whole E-War immunity package vaguely balanced is that you can't be tackled but you also don't need to be.
hence to cut the range by half, so i can't fight at that range even if i wanted to, i must move TOWARD the enemy, not away from, and once i have moved once i will be unable to move again, leaving me wide open to the counter barrage of fire that will very soon be raining down on my head, I must close to point ranges using the MJD in order to rapidly remove a threat, to use this to run away from one threat (like a gate camp) will leave me exposed to enemy tackle and death, that said i do agree that with the web bonus proposed to all marauders currently this scenario is less likely to occur, so I will append to the statement not to add to the marauders a propulsion jamming bonus at all. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:49:00 -
[3305] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed. For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here. Thanks for the read. I would surmise that for missions you are correct, but what about PvP? Note that Caldari ships suck for EM resistance (typically 0-20), but with two T2 EM amplifiers it's easy to get this into the high 60's and low 70's without much effort. I imagine the same would be true for kinetic and thermal on the Vargur and Paladin. Let's also not forget that there are no shield strength implants, so it's quite easy to turn the Paladin into a flying brick with a set of Slave implants. What I wouldn't mind seeing for Marauders is a set of short and long-range skills (instead of the fixed stasis web): GÇó Paladin: Tracking, Damage GÇó Golem: Target Painter, Missile Velocity GÇó Kronos: Tracking, Optimal GÇó Vargur: Stasis Web, Falloff I still think that if Bastion is going to reduce your speed to zero it should also compensate for the immobility by increasing tracking speed and explosion radius, increasing rate of fire by 50% and doubling the load time.
As I wrote earlier and what your statement seems to support is that for PvP it doesnGÇÖt matter where the resist hole is - it will be filled anyway with a proper mod for omnitank.
It does hugely matter in PvE where there is a fixed dmg type of rats and if a PvE boat that is supposed to fight those rats has a hole on their dmg types that this is just bad design. Fix Paladin and Vargur resists. Just swap them thatGÇÖs all that is needed.
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Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:54:00 -
[3306] - Quote
Also want to point out that I did not count "tackle" as "EWAR" though i should have, by EWAR i refer to ECM, sensor dampeners tracking disruption and target painting - if this ship is silly enough to hold itself in place then my opponent has the right to tackle me to keep me there when i want to leave, to bolster myself in space should make me vulnerable to enemy frigates and cruisers the idea must be dangerous, and force me to rely on other people to defend me while i'm in such a blatantly aggressive stance. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:57:00 -
[3307] - Quote
The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
Vargur TQ EM 66% TH 68.3% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
Vargur w/ T2 EM 89.1% TH 82.4% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. Conflag w/ 4 faction sinks would do a maximum of like 130 effective dps. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:01:00 -
[3308] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply.
this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin) |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:08:00 -
[3309] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin)
Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
346
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:18:00 -
[3310] - Quote
Does anyone here know how mission runners fit their kronos' at the moment? I'd be keen to know as I've never seen one being used on TQ other than for combat-salvaging a c5 sleeper site.
pls "like" the post if you reply so I can find the answer, or mail me in game.
ps. I'm not trolling, just be keen to know. I always assumed it would be rails & perma-tank, but ytterbium's demo post a few hundred pages back made me wonder.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|
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Sevena Black
Soul of the Black Dragon
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:27:00 -
[3311] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those 
Right... The module that allows dreads to siege demands the use of stront, not the skill.
2 modules do the same thing; putting a ship into a different mode or; they both tactically reconfigure its weapons. In case of a dread into siegemode, in case of a marauder into bastionmode. The same skill can both reduce stront for module A and reduce cap for module B. All it takes is a rewrite of the skills effect (along with some programming).
I like this Marauder update because it adds an extra role to a ship without messing up the old one.
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Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:29:00 -
[3312] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin) Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing.
What the hell are you doing with your missions boats O.o. EM-Rigs? Please tell me you are kidding..
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:36:00 -
[3313] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin) Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing. What the hell are you doing with your missions boats O.o. EM-Rigs? Please tell me you are kidding..
No, I don't put EM rigs on my mission boats. What I'm talking about is the fitting options available to players that are trying to fit a balanced omni tank on the currently suggested marauder hulls. The Golem has a significant EM resist hole. The only way to fill that is with an active hardener, a passive amplifier, or a rig. Obviously the active or passive modules are the best options especially since rigs are the only damage application slots available for missiles currently. However, the EM rig is still an OPTION to accomplish the goal of filling the resist hole. There's a difference between discussing the options available and recommending some subset of those options. I'm doing the former of those activities here.
The point I'm trying to make is that the Golem, Kronos, and Paladin hulls will HAVE to fit a 4 slot tank if they want a balanced omni profile while the Vargur can get away with just 3. |

Afru Tolm
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:50:00 -
[3314] - Quote
Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?
Obviously this is the most important change happening here.
Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?
CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!
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Beckett Firesnake
Babylon Knights Renegades Council
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:52:00 -
[3315] - Quote
BS with 2 sets of small drones only? Not a lot. I would let a bandwith/bay of 50/75 to 50/100 on these ships. It is not so much... |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:03:00 -
[3316] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin) Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing. What the hell are you doing with your missions boats O.o. EM-Rigs? Please tell me you are kidding.. No, I don't put EM rigs on my mission boats. What I'm talking about is the fitting options available to players that are trying to fit a balanced omni tank on the currently suggested marauder hulls. The Golem has a significant EM resist hole. The only way to fill that is with an active hardener, a passive amplifier, or a rig. Obviously the active or passive modules are the best options especially since rigs are the only damage application slots available for missiles currently. However, the EM rig is still an OPTION to accomplish the goal of filling the resist hole. There's a difference between discussing the options available and recommending some subset of those options. I'm doing the former of those activities here. The point I'm trying to make is that the Golem, Kronos, and Paladin hulls will HAVE to fit a 4 slot tank if they want a balanced omni profile while the Vargur can get away with just 3.
Oh well, that sounds better. Anyway - I think the golem will be able to get away with an EM ward and an Invul + Shield Booster for lv 4's. Dmg output is enough, and ~67 % em should be fine, considered that you will have huge thermal resists - if poop hits the fan, use bastion.
However, it won't be enough to switch from my CNR. CNR has enough tank and enough application (+ more damage through sentries), and the CNR has way more buffer..
No reason to use the Golem, unless you want to fly with torps. |

Beckett Firesnake
Babylon Knights Renegades Council
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:04:00 -
[3317] - Quote
Well , I can hope to have with Antimatter T1 about 700 DPS at 67.5km with my 425 Rail T2 on my optimal while I use the Bastion Mode?
I find it not bad at all. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:04:00 -
[3318] - Quote
Afru Tolm wrote:Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?
Obviously this is the most important change happening here.
Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?
CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!
Probably not for the paladin, was likely taken into consideration when designing the current hull, bit yes, definitely the burning question.
The first iteration, probably could have, not so shure about the current one, though its anyones guess as to what the next will look like If in doubt...do...excessively. |

seth Hendar
I love you miners
180
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:08:00 -
[3319] - Quote
Lord Vimuhla wrote:HAIKU
command ships now crap please keep your sticky fingers off our marauders
does work with HACs too, deimos and vaga are now good for the scrapeyard, nothing to be done with them anymore
|

Nova Satar
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
161
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:10:00 -
[3320] - Quote
so the marauders will basically be the same ship in 4 different skins? |
|

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:19:00 -
[3321] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Afru Tolm wrote:Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?
Obviously this is the most important change happening here.
Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?
CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!
Probably not for the paladin, was likely taken into consideration when designing the current hull, bit yes, definitely the burning question.
You are probably right across all the class considering that also Tempest hull got a complete new model some time ago too.
Nova Satar wrote:so the marauders will basically be the same ship in 4 different skins?
Some additional fins and antennas, probably things like that, doesn't look like they really need a complete different hull to "transform" (We don't even know how the animation is intended, they might simply open some sort of flap while spreading outside the hardpoints)
EDIT: i'm more worried about stats than graphic atm... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:20:00 -
[3322] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Oh well, that sounds better. Anyway - I think the golem will be able to get away with an EM ward and an Invul + Shield Booster for lv 4's. Dmg output is enough, and ~67 % em should be fine, considered that you will have huge thermal resists - if poop hits the fan, use bastion.
However, it won't be enough to switch from my CNR. CNR has enough tank and enough application (+ more damage through sentries), and the CNR has way more buffer..
No reason to use the Golem, unless you want to fly with torps.
That's been exactly what I've been saying. Swapping T2 resists for the old bastion resists and the local rep bonus pretty much makes most of the marauders far less attractive than the faction and pirate BS varieties for both PVE and PVP. The TQ and first proposal versions at least provided a boost to mission efficiency compared to the other hulls. |

Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:28:00 -
[3323] - Quote
I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea. What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?
Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs. Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!
Plus: If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship. Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)
Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed. Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute. Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:33:00 -
[3324] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea. What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?
Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs. Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!
Plus: If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship. Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)
Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed. Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute. Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.
This was one reason a lot of us found the first one preferable, while they would have been " I can't believe its not a capital" they did not have the web's If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:38:00 -
[3325] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea. What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?
Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs. Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!
Plus: If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship. Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)
Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed. Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute. Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.
exactly the reasoning behind my earlier proposal to shift the focus of bastion from defense to offense, as it is ccp seems to want these things to be unassailable,
keep Immunity to ECM, tracking disruption, painting and sensor damps, keep vulnerability to tackle, remove stasis web bonus for shield boost amount remove remote assistance and reduce mobility to nothing (beyond a burst of the MJD)- this is my defense in bastion mode
my offense:
reduce spool of MJD, increase damage of guns, reduce range and lock range by half
why? so i can lock myself down, jump in at an ewar ship/logi cruiser /something deadly threatening my fleet and kill it at the expense of myself, hopefully, i am fast enough to come back out of bastion in time to get help from my allies, if not I will die and hopefully, i've done what i had to do in order to give my allies the opening they need to win/runaway/whatever - make the module function much like a spear head one very powerful charge.
most marauders can fire out to 100km + as they are now, a reduction of 50% range means you're stuck to under 50, but can still hit anything in that range - damage increase is to ensure you can hammer whatever it is before it breaks range, and if not it'll run/warp from your guns, removing itself from grid, mission still a partial success, you then are stuck where the MJD lands you until your timer runs clean, and it'll be up to your fleet mates to keep you safe until then. |

Baali Tekitsu
God Bless My Enemies
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:39:00 -
[3326] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea. What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?
Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs. Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!
Plus: If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship. Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)
Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed. Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute. Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.
You just gonna need something able to tank the incoming DPS/win the cap warfare and thats about it. You can accomplish this by a tripple rep dominix/hyperion or w/e floats your boat (Im taking the Kronos as an example, which I consider the best PvP Marauder after the changes). Nobody said BSs should be killed by everything that comes close to it. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:41:00 -
[3327] - Quote
Edit If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:45:00 -
[3328] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Edit
that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :) |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:48:00 -
[3329] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Edit that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :) Anyone got that graph handy? If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:53:00 -
[3330] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Edit that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :) Anyone got that graph handy?
would be convenient wouldn't it? :D get on the horn to fox four and assign him a few fit warriors with someone versed in fleet command, you'll have your graphs sir..oh yes YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR SHINY PICTURES! XD |
|

Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:55:00 -
[3331] - Quote
Striscio wrote: Some additional fins and antennas, probably things like that, doesn't look like they really need a complete different hull to "transform" (We don't even know how the animation is intended, they might simply open some sort of flap while spreading outside the hardpoints)
"Removal" of some "bitz" would also be nice,.. The "Forecastle" on the Golem,.. yeah I'm talkin' about you, you ugly little verticle mess of hull aesthetics destruction,.. begone,..
I can't find a decent pic of it that isn't huge,.. but you know the one I'm talkin' about,.. the thing is absolutely fugly,.. and in no way compliements the "lines" of the hull in any way. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:22:00 -
[3332] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Edit that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :) Anyone got that graph handy? would be convenient wouldn't it? :D get on the horn to fox four and assign him a few fit warriors with someone versed in fleet command, you'll have your graphs sir..oh yes YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR SHINY PICTURES! XD http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:27:00 -
[3333] - Quote
I'm reasonably sure thers a dev blog that explains the thought process around moving away from the old tiers.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:29:00 -
[3334] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Edit Anyone got that graph handy? would be convenient wouldn't it? :D get on the horn to fox four and assign him a few fit warriors with someone versed in fleet command, you'll have your graphs sir..oh yes YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR SHINY PICTURES! XD http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg
yup, that's about right, though t3 are specialised not generalised, they just have more parts to chose from upon their construction that give them the ability to appear more general, faction ships sit in the center - beign t1, and t2 steer towards one specific idea, the idea of the marauders...is versatility, cuz..you can specialise at being versatile yea? :)
so while your pirate BS do a little more direct damage, a marauder will say instead of that damage, we'll take RR and or cap modules instead, so we can adapt better to a change of circumstance, or perform better under fire, increasing our combat effectiveness over all compared to the faction equivalent :)
that picture, while being very simple, does the job - though it may take a more detailed breakdown for most people to notice i think ;) |

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
555
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:31:00 -
[3335] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:
yup, that's about right, though t3 are specialised not generalised, they just have more parts to chose from upon their construction that give them the ability to appear more general, faction ships sit in the center - beign t1, and t2 steer towards one specific idea, the idea of the marauders...is versatility, cuz..you can specialise at being versatile yea? :)
Not really, t3s are generally far more "generalized" compared to t2.
Furthermore, t3 are far far far better than pirate faction atm, expect a swift kick in the nuts to the whole lot of them.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:31:00 -
[3336] - Quote
Just read the dev blog and calm down If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:38:00 -
[3337] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Wedgetail wrote:
yup, that's about right, though t3 are specialised not generalised, they just have more parts to chose from upon their construction that give them the ability to appear more general, faction ships sit in the center - beign t1, and t2 steer towards one specific idea, the idea of the marauders...is versatility, cuz..you can specialise at being versatile yea? :)
Not really, t3s are generally far more "generalized" compared to t2. They often combine much stronger hulls compared to hacs (with 3 rigs) while also combining it with some form of ewar advantage. Furthermore, t3 are far far far better than pirate faction ships atm, expect a swift kick in the nuts to the whole lot of them.
the subsystems for t3 are modelled off of the HAC and force recon equivelents, t3's are "general" cuz they can pick an choose between which ones they want, yes this creates a general purpose hull, but the base components are specialised - hence my interpretation that t3's are specialised hulls that can become generalised by choosing to do so - equally a t3 can become very specialised by picking only the subsystems that aid a single task, it's all down to what you build it to do and how you fly it, it is..what you make of it X) |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
505
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:41:00 -
[3338] - Quote
Pi Selina wrote:Striscio wrote: Some additional fins and antennas, probably things like that, doesn't look like they really need a complete different hull to "transform" (We don't even know how the animation is intended, they might simply open some sort of flap while spreading outside the hardpoints)
"Removal" of some "bitz" would also be nice,.. The "Forecastle" on the Golem,.. yeah I'm talkin' about you, you ugly little verticle mess of hull aesthetics destruction,.. begone,.. I can't find a decent pic of it that isn't huge,.. but you know the one I'm talkin' about,.. the thing is absolutely fugly,.. and in no way compliements the "lines" of the hull in any way.
This one before the re-work Golem or did you mean after the V3 shader model.
Either way both ugly as sin...hoping for some KK (Kaalakiota Corporation) paint-job love like the Widow got...that looks sweet. Or even the black hull with the yellow flashes... Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1283
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:43:00 -
[3339] - Quote
so anyone know when version 2.0 is going to be released... we need a new op and a new thread There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:45:00 -
[3340] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
Vargur TQ EM 66% TH 68.3% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
Vargur w/ T2 EM 89.1% TH 82.4% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. Conflag w/ 4 faction sinks would do a maximum of like 130 effective dps. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply.
Funny now check your paladin.. because it suddenly became almost immune to Explosive as well!! |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 14:48:00 -
[3341] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Wedgetail wrote:
yup, that's about right, though t3 are specialised not generalised, they just have more parts to chose from upon their construction that give them the ability to appear more general, faction ships sit in the center - beign t1, and t2 steer towards one specific idea, the idea of the marauders...is versatility, cuz..you can specialise at being versatile yea? :)
Not really, t3s are generally far more "generalized" compared to t2. They often combine much stronger hulls compared to hacs (with 3 rigs) while also combining it with some form of ewar advantage. Furthermore, t3 are far far far better than pirate faction ships atm, expect a swift kick in the nuts to the whole lot of them. the subsystems for t3 are modelled off of the HAC and force recon equivelents, t3's are "general" cuz they can pick an choose between which ones they want, yes this creates a general purpose hull, but the base components are specialised - hence my interpretation that t3's are specialised hulls that can become generalised by choosing to do so - equally a t3 can become very specialised by picking only the subsystems that aid a single task, it's all down to what you build it to do and how you fly it, it is..what you make of it X) Love the logic. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:05:00 -
[3342] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wedgetail wrote:the subsystems for t3 are modelled off of the HAC and force recon equivelents, t3's are "general" cuz they can pick an choose between which ones they want, yes this creates a general purpose hull, but the base components are specialised - hence my interpretation that t3's are specialised hulls that can become generalised by choosing to do so - equally a t3 can become very specialised by picking only the subsystems that aid a single task, it's all down to what you build it to do and how you fly it, it is..what you make of it X) Love the logic.
no.. you are plain stupid. he has more knowlede and experience.. he knows how to use classy words and anyway.. he knows he's ****.
you are total moron to think otherwise
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg
ffs look at that picture... pirate BS is t1.5 compared to marauders!!!!

hell.. dem marauders are so specialized atm that all incursion fleets are full of them, marauding and stuff while hauling expensive salvages into cargohold :D they be doing srs business behind enemy lines and marauding all together and stuff.
except no one wants them in fleet  |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:15:00 -
[3343] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wedgetail wrote:the subsystems for t3 are modelled off of the HAC and force recon equivelents, t3's are "general" cuz they can pick an choose between which ones they want, yes this creates a general purpose hull, but the base components are specialised - hence my interpretation that t3's are specialised hulls that can become generalised by choosing to do so - equally a t3 can become very specialised by picking only the subsystems that aid a single task, it's all down to what you build it to do and how you fly it, it is..what you make of it X) Love the logic. no.. you are plain stupid. he has more knowlede and experience.. he knows how to use classy words and anyway.. he knows he's ****. you are total moron to think otherwise http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpgffs look at that picture... pirate BS is t1.5 compared to marauders!!!!  hell.. dem marauders are so specialized atm that all incursion fleets are full of them, marauding and stuff while hauling expensive salvages into cargohold :D they be doing srs business behind enemy lines and marauding all together and stuff. except no one wants them in fleet  lol If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
106
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:27:00 -
[3344] - Quote
I'm not particularly thrilled with the removal of the rep bonuses from the marauder hulls. The ability to tank heavily in all situations was one of the central marauder capabilities. I'm not fond of the idea that they will have to stop moving now to tank well at all.
Personally, I believe the original marauder proposal was much better than the current one on most points. The main thing I would've done is provided a tracking bonus while in bastion as opposed to a range bonus. I also would've removed the range bonus that was added to the paladin hull and replaced it with a tracking bonus to be on par with the other marauders. |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:28:00 -
[3345] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Gimme more Cynos wrote:Oh well, that sounds better. Anyway - I think the golem will be able to get away with an EM ward and an Invul + Shield Booster for lv 4's. Dmg output is enough, and ~67 % em should be fine, considered that you will have huge thermal resists - if poop hits the fan, use bastion.
However, it won't be enough to switch from my CNR. CNR has enough tank and enough application (+ more damage through sentries), and the CNR has way more buffer..
No reason to use the Golem, unless you want to fly with torps. That's been exactly what I've been saying. Swapping T2 resists for the old bastion resists and the local rep bonus pretty much makes most of the marauders far less attractive than the faction and pirate BS varieties for both PVE and PVP. The TQ and first proposal versions at least provided a boost to mission efficiency compared to the other hulls.
This is definately true for the turret-marauders. However, the golem isn't just that easy. In my opinion, the golem has nothing to offer at the moment, which makes it a reasonable choice. Both alternatives (CNR and the rattler) are just plain better. Even the normal raven and the SNI are comparable to the golem, as the only benefit the golem has to offer is the tank (which isn't needed anyway).
That's the reason why I support this change - atleast, the golem will offer a choice over the other missile-boats (which is a stronger active-tank through bastion, and Ewar Immunity + high mobility through MJD).
Ofcourse it seems that the bonuses are chaotic, but it makes sense to me and they define a role too (versatility as close range-brawler + mobility and range as sniper - both with very good damage application).
As it stands, I support these changes, and I can't see why any PvE-player would ever complain about the loss of active-tank bonus for plain resists. For level 4's, you simply don't care about the marginal tank-loss you receive while not beeing in bastion. For other forms of PvE (Incursions), the resists are plain better too. And even WH spider-tanking will benefit more from the resists.
Yeah, the loss of mobility in bastion is quite meh (noone likes to be immobile), but the benefits are there, and you can make use of it. The only thing I would question is the web-strength-bonus, which should be a range-bonus in my opinion.
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1283
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:50:00 -
[3346] - Quote
So it looks like the main ship all the marauders are being compared to is the Machariel.
I read over and over again that the mach is much better then the ships.
I have asked people to aviod comparions because the pirate battleships have not been balanced.
but alas this had not been done.
So here is the post balance mach that we will more then likely see.
Quote:Machariel
GÇóRole Bonus: 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
GÇóGalente Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff per level (-2.5%)
GÇóMinmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level
GÇóSlot layout: 8H, 5M, 7L; 7turrets, 0 launchers GÇóFittings: 17000 (-950) MW PWG , 600 CPU GÇóDefense (shields / armor / hull) : 9000(-317) / 9000(-298) / 8000(-260) GÇóMobility (max velocity / mass): 150 m/s(-11) / 980,000,000 (+3,320,000) GÇóDrones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-25) / 100(-25) GÇóTargeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km(-2km) / 140-10 / 7 GÇóSensor strength: 26 LADAR GÇóSignature radius: 360(-+20)
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:56:00 -
[3347] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
Vargur TQ EM 66% TH 68.3% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
Vargur w/ T2 EM 89.1% TH 82.4% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. Conflag w/ 4 faction sinks would do a maximum of like 130 effective dps. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. Funny now check your paladin.. because it suddenly became almost immune to Explosive as well!!
The version 2 Paladin comes out to: EM 77.4% TH 70.7% KN 68.1% EX 83%
So for the ammo types that include Explosive damage here's the damage breakdown: EMP 16.7% explosive Fusion 83% explosive Barrage 54.5% explosive Tremor 62.5% explosive Hail 78.5% explosive
This only affects some of the ammo selections available to missiles and projectiles with options that become much more effective. The Vargur resists align with lasers perfectly and they can chose their ammo types to be more effective unlike lasers.
Again my point is that with T2 resists the Vargur gains a big advantage over the other 3 racial marauders in that they are easily omni tanked and can produce equivalent resist numbers with one less tanking module. As it stands now there will be a definite pecking order of marauders based on resist profile, repair potential, DPS and application, and efficiency. Here's how I view it
- Vargur - Great resist profile. Can fit a 3 slot tank. Good up close damage, high alpha damage from range. Can fit 4 damage mods easily
- Kronos - Pretty flexible resist profile. Great up close damage and good alpha/damage from range.
- Golem - Lack of 3rd rig slot hurts damage application versus faction/pirate hulls. Fully selectable damage. Great resist profile versus most pirate faction NPCs.
- Paladin - Poor resist profiles for faction rats. Subpar resists compared to other three options. Non selectable damage. Great capacitor and very flexible damage range through fast ammo switching
The middle two hulls really are a toss up on which one is better. If the Golem had a third rig slot it would easily beat the Kronos simply because it's shield tanked and has silly tanking options through ASB fittings. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 16:03:00 -
[3348] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:That's been exactly what I've been saying. Swapping T2 resists for the old bastion resists and the local rep bonus pretty much makes most of the marauders far less attractive than the faction and pirate BS varieties for both PVE and PVP. The TQ and first proposal versions at least provided a boost to mission efficiency compared to the other hulls. This is definately true for the turret-marauders. However, the golem isn't just that easy. In my opinion, the golem has nothing to offer at the moment, which makes it a reasonable choice. Both alternatives (CNR and the rattler) are just plain better. Even the normal raven and the SNI are comparable to the golem, as the only benefit the golem has to offer is the tank (which isn't needed anyway). That's the reason why I support this change - atleast, the golem will offer a choice over the other missile-boats (which is a stronger active-tank through bastion, and Ewar Immunity + high mobility through MJD). Ofcourse it seems that the bonuses are chaotic, but it makes sense to me and they define a role too (versatility as close range-brawler + mobility and range as sniper - both with very good damage application). As it stands, I support these changes, and I can't see why any PvE-player would ever complain about the loss of active-tank bonus for plain resists. For level 4's, you simply don't care about the marginal tank-loss you receive while not beeing in bastion. For other forms of PvE (Incursions), the resists are plain better too. And even WH spider-tanking will benefit more from the resists. Yeah, the loss of mobility in bastion is quite meh (noone likes to be immobile), but the benefits are there, and you can make use of it. The only thing I would question is the web-strength-bonus, which should be a range-bonus in my opinion.
The change to T2 resists only benefit some of the hulls versus their factions rats compared to the active tanking bonuses. The Paladin has received a net loss in tanking potential with the changes. The Amarr T2 profile doesn't enhance EM or Thermal resistances which is what the primary targets of a laser boat are shooting. So the Paladin lost 37.5% repair against their primary targets and gained absolutely nothing outside of bastion. The Paladin only sees an increase in tanking potential against those same NPCs over what they are capable of on TQ with bastion active and they must STAND STILL to get it. The other hulls received enough additional resistances against their primary factions to counteract the lost of local repair boost so they get a net positive both without bastion or with bastion active. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 16:27:00 -
[3349] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:
Vargur TQ EM 66% TH 68.3% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
Vargur w/ T2 EM 89.1% TH 82.4% KN 72.8% EX 77.4%
With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. Conflag w/ 4 faction sinks would do a maximum of like 130 effective dps. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.
If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply. Funny now check your paladin.. because it suddenly became almost immune to Explosive as well!! The version 2 Paladin comes out to: EM 77.4% TH 70.7% KN 68.1% EX 83% So for the ammo types that include Explosive damage here's the damage breakdown: EMP 16.7% explosive Fusion 83% explosive Barrage 54.5% explosive Tremor 62.5% explosive Hail 78.5% explosive This only affects some of the ammo selections available to missiles and projectiles with options that become much more effective. The Vargur resists align with lasers perfectly and they can chose their ammo types to be more effective unlike lasers. Again my point is that with T2 resists the Vargur gains a big advantage over the other 3 racial marauders in that they are easily omni tanked and can produce equivalent resist numbers with one less tanking module. As it stands now there will be a definite pecking order of marauders based on resist profile, repair potential, DPS and application, and efficiency. Here's how I view it
- Vargur - Great resist profile. Can fit a 3 slot tank. Good up close damage, high alpha damage from range. Can fit 4 damage mods easily
- Kronos - Pretty flexible resist profile. Great up close damage and good alpha/damage from range.
- Golem - Lack of 3rd rig slot hurts damage application versus faction/pirate hulls. Fully selectable damage. Great resist profile versus most pirate faction NPCs.
- Paladin - Poor resist profiles for faction rats. Subpar resists compared to other three options. Non selectable damage. Great capacitor and very flexible damage range through fast ammo switching
The middle two hulls really are a toss up on which one is better. If the Golem had a third rig slot it would easily beat the Kronos simply because it's shield tanked and has silly tanking options through ASB fittings.
you care about resist agaisnt RATS? LOL
Dude.. ANy of those can tank ANy level 4 with a hand tied behind their backs.
OVERTANKING HELPS IN NOTHING!!!!
NOTHING!!! THe best tank in missions is DPS!!! In PVP tank can be useful, but even then DPS is usually more important.
On your numbers:
this is BASE paladin resists for armor Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM
How in hell you managed to get only 83% in your explosive?
A paladin withn 2 Imperial ENAM and 1 DC (minimum you woudl invest in such a ship) woudl have EM 77% therm 70% kin 83% exp 90% |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 16:38:00 -
[3350] - Quote
I rechecked bonuses ... (after change)
and 37,5% repair amount = T2 resists
Result is really nearly the same. (maybe something like +5 - 10 EHP regen per sec for T2 ressits.)
Not sure how it will be for active shield tank. For passive shield tank this can be really big advantage :-D |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 16:58:00 -
[3351] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:you care about resist agaisnt RATS? LOL
No, not especially. I only care about them to the point of running missions efficiently.
Kagura Nikon wrote:Dude.. ANy of those can tank ANy level 4 with a hand tied behind their backs.
OVERTANKING HELPS IN NOTHING!!!!
NOTHING!!!
Actually, having tanking potential above and beyond what is required to successfully complete a mission provides 3 real benefits:
- Exchanging tank slots for damage amount, damage application, or utility modules
- Simulated cap stability by allowing the pulsing of repair modules instead of running them flat out
- Reducing module meta level to become less of a gank target
Kagura Nikon wrote:THe best tank in missions is DPS!!! In PVP tank can be useful, but even then DPS is usually more important.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. As I stated above the only way to eek out more DPS from these hulls (since they don't have a direct damage bonus) is to exchange some of that extra tanking potential for damage application or amount modules.
Kagura Nikon wrote:On your numbers:
this is BASE paladin resists for armor Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM
How in hell you managed to get only 83% in your explosive?
A paladin withn 2 Imperial ENAM and 1 DC (minimum you woudl invest in such a ship) woudl have EM 77% therm 70% kin 83% exp 90%
You are simply taking my post out of context. If you had kept up with this thread you would know that the intent of my posts is to compare the TQ, version 1, and version 2 proposals and draw conclusions on how they perform in various scenarios based on the differences. I can throw a bunch of faction/deadspace/officer modules into any fit and reach silly numbers with any hull. The point is to see where these hulls fit into the EVE ship ecosystem taking these changes into account.
If the overall tanking potential of these hulls is only slightly better then the pirate hulls, the pirate variants will always be better because they bring greater DPS potential. The devs have already indicated that they do not want to add a direct DPS bonus to the marauder class and have chosen to concentrate on damage projection and situational mobility. I'm simply looking at the numbers provided by practical fits and seeing how they fit within this stated goal and which usage roles benefit from the changes and which roles are adversely affected by them. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:03:00 -
[3352] - Quote
Loving how someone always takes up the batton and explains this for each timezone.
Well said sir If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
357
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:13:00 -
[3353] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The change to T2 resists only benefit some of the hulls versus their factions rats compared to the active tanking bonuses. The Paladin has received a net loss in tanking potential with the changes. The Amarr T2 profile doesn't enhance EM or Thermal resistances which is what the primary targets of a laser boat are shooting. So the Paladin lost 37.5% repair against their primary targets and gained absolutely nothing outside of bastion. The Paladin only sees an increase in tanking potential against those same NPCs over what they are capable of on TQ with bastion active and they must STAND STILL to get it. The other hulls received enough additional resistances against their primary factions to counteract the lost of local repair boost so they get a net positive both without bastion or with bastion active.
Designing marauders for PvE is what ruined them in the first place. They need to be balanced for PvP because mission runners are just going to pick the ship that runs missions the quickest anyway. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:16:00 -
[3354] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The change to T2 resists only benefit some of the hulls versus their factions rats compared to the active tanking bonuses. The Paladin has received a net loss in tanking potential with the changes. The Amarr T2 profile doesn't enhance EM or Thermal resistances which is what the primary targets of a laser boat are shooting. So the Paladin lost 37.5% repair against their primary targets and gained absolutely nothing outside of bastion. The Paladin only sees an increase in tanking potential against those same NPCs over what they are capable of on TQ with bastion active and they must STAND STILL to get it. The other hulls received enough additional resistances against their primary factions to counteract the lost of local repair boost so they get a net positive both without bastion or with bastion active. Designing marauders for PvE is what ruined them in the first place. They need to be balanced for PvP because mission runners are just going to pick the ship that runs missions the quickest anyway.
Which doesn't mean they can't be balanced both for PvE and PvP...  |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:23:00 -
[3355] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The change to T2 resists only benefit some of the hulls versus their factions rats compared to the active tanking bonuses. The Paladin has received a net loss in tanking potential with the changes. The Amarr T2 profile doesn't enhance EM or Thermal resistances which is what the primary targets of a laser boat are shooting. So the Paladin lost 37.5% repair against their primary targets and gained absolutely nothing outside of bastion. The Paladin only sees an increase in tanking potential against those same NPCs over what they are capable of on TQ with bastion active and they must STAND STILL to get it. The other hulls received enough additional resistances against their primary factions to counteract the lost of local repair boost so they get a net positive both without bastion or with bastion active. Designing marauders for PvE is what ruined them in the first place. They need to be balanced for PvP because mission runners are just going to pick the ship that runs missions the quickest anyway.
I agree with you. However, what I don't want to see happen is the reduction of PVE capability to the point that faction and pirate hulls become better than marauders for that use. It would completely invalidate the ISK and SP investment of those players who already use the Marauder class for its current PVE focus. If modifications to the class to add PVP uses and expand their use into other areas besides level 4 missions can be made while maintaining everything else, great. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4588
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:31:00 -
[3356] - Quote
So perhaps balance the hulls for PVP, and the bastion module for PVE... or vice versa. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:35:00 -
[3357] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
I agree with you. However, what I don't want to see happen is the reduction of PVE capability to the point that faction and pirate hulls become better than marauders for that use. It would completely invalidate the ISK and SP investment of those players who already use the Marauder class for its current PVE focus. If modifications to the class to add PVP uses and expand their use into other areas besides level 4 missions can be made while maintaining everything else, great.
it can, but ccp will have to stop focusing on making their changes prioritise defensive tactics, you don't win by isolating yourself from your allies, you don't win by sitting dead still and allowing your enemy to kill you on their terms and you don't win by allowing your opponent the room they need to simply ignore you.
you win by crushing them under your heel with unavoidable force, marauders by default fight at long range - with exception of the kronos (which still can but its current bonus set prioritises close quarters)
give the marauder hulls their optimal/falloff bonus, give them the rate of fire/damage bonus, the repair amount boost bonus and their tracking bonus - this means the default stance to a marauder is to sit at long range and skirmish (like they already do)
allowing them to continue doing what they do already, THEN for the bastion module, invert the role entirely, make its focus an all or nothing attack move, marauders are violent they don't huddle back off in the distance when things get bad they get very angry and aggressive, they defend by attacking indiscriminately - thus removing the thing causing them harm - or perishing in the attempt, this way marauders get a new function, and keep their old one at the same time - all peeps go home happy. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:44:00 -
[3358] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been a while since I've done missions, but last I checked you don't need a 1000dps tank to solo L4 missions. The few places you do need a greater tank than that are meant to be run by multiple people/accounts anyways. Likewise, T1 resists are more than adequate to run the ships respective racial missions without issue. This truly isn't as big of an issue as many people are making it out to be. After all, remote repping isn't the only reason resist bonuses were nerfed recently. ;) Depends on the ship and the weapon systems. The greater the ship's innate ability to tank the more you can focus on other things like damage application and projection and the less tank you actually have to bring. Being able to perma-tank a mission is quite a nice luxury if you can't lower incoming DPS fast enough. Plus it's pretty fun watching ~1k of mission DPS splash off your tank with no red showing. For reference if you fail to bring down incoming DPS there are Level 4 missions that do 1k DPS, give or take a little. As for Level 5 missions, yes those are meant to be run by multiple people, however people figured out ages ago how to run them solo in a few select fits so they haven't really been serious multi-person content for years.
I fail to see why that's a compelling argument for retaining the rep bonus. Losing a little bit of tank against some NPC rats will not suddenly make these ships useless for PvE content. If anything it broadens the range of PvE content they can effectively be used for because of the overall increased resists. Retaining the current tanks for PvE just because a few people don't want to see any red on their tank during a site/mission/etc. isn't a good reason to retain it. Especially if it's at the expense of giving the ship greater usability overall. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:57:00 -
[3359] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:
I agree with you. However, what I don't want to see happen is the reduction of PVE capability to the point that faction and pirate hulls become better than marauders for that use. It would completely invalidate the ISK and SP investment of those players who already use the Marauder class for its current PVE focus. If modifications to the class to add PVP uses and expand their use into other areas besides level 4 missions can be made while maintaining everything else, great.
it can, but ccp will have to stop focusing on making their changes prioritise defensive tactics, you don't win by isolating yourself from your allies, you don't win by sitting dead still and allowing your enemy to kill you on their terms and you don't win by allowing your opponent the room they need to simply ignore you. you win by crushing them under your heel with unavoidable force, marauders by default fight at long range - with exception of the kronos (which still can but its current bonus set prioritises close quarters) give the marauder hulls their optimal/falloff bonus, give them the rate of fire/damage bonus, the repair amount boost bonus and their tracking bonus - this means the default stance to a marauder is to sit at long range and skirmish (like they already do) allowing them to continue doing what they do already, THEN for the bastion module, invert the role entirely, make its focus an all or nothing attack move, marauders are violent they don't huddle back off in the distance when things get bad they get very angry and aggressive, they defend by attacking indiscriminately - thus removing the thing causing them harm - or perishing in the attempt, this way marauders get a new function, and keep their old one at the same time - all peeps go home happy. Do you need to see the graph again? You should probably read this Are you familiar with the concept of attrition? If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:06:00 -
[3360] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been a while since I've done missions, but last I checked you don't need a 1000dps tank to solo L4 missions. The few places you do need a greater tank than that are meant to be run by multiple people/accounts anyways. Likewise, T1 resists are more than adequate to run the ships respective racial missions without issue. This truly isn't as big of an issue as many people are making it out to be. After all, remote repping isn't the only reason resist bonuses were nerfed recently. ;) Depends on the ship and the weapon systems. The greater the ship's innate ability to tank the more you can focus on other things like damage application and projection and the less tank you actually have to bring. Being able to perma-tank a mission is quite a nice luxury if you can't lower incoming DPS fast enough. Plus it's pretty fun watching ~1k of mission DPS splash off your tank with no red showing. For reference if you fail to bring down incoming DPS there are Level 4 missions that do 1k DPS, give or take a little. As for Level 5 missions, yes those are meant to be run by multiple people, however people figured out ages ago how to run them solo in a few select fits so they haven't really been serious multi-person content for years. I fail to see why that's a compelling argument for retaining the rep bonus. Losing a little bit of tank against some NPC rats will not suddenly make these ships useless for PvE content. If anything it broadens the range of PvE content they can effectively be used for because of the overall increased resists. Retaining the current tanks for PvE just because a few people don't want to see any red on their tank during a site/mission/etc. isn't a good reason to retain it. Especially if it's at the expense of giving the ship greater usability overall.
The problem is that by lowering the tank, the differences between the Marauder class and the pirate/faction hulls becomes too narrow making the those alternatives far more attractive because they will bring almost the same effective tanking potential, but with greater maneuverability, raw damage, less training time, and less ISK investment. Why train for and fly a marauder if the faction/pirate hulls match it or exceed it in most ways. |
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:07:00 -
[3361] - Quote
yes i do - marauders already fight attrition warfare, through utility high slots sporting remote repair modules, they sit back spider tanking raining death, this is what this iteration of bastion says it's trying to get them to do...just without the RR cuz..you're in bastion mode you can't receive remote aid, this means that if you're within the enemy's firing line while in bastion mode, you die - just as dreads die sieged to battleship alpha fleets now, no amount of self mounted repair modules will save you against a fleet.
bear in mind that if you MJD around as ccp seem to intend, target locks do not break unless you pass beyond lock range, as you're not warping, you're simply moving at high speed to a point 100km infront of you.
marauders already do what ccp is trying to use bastion to make them do, so rather than change what already is by adding a new thing that repeats the old thing in a different manner, keep the old way and add the new one that does something different, expanding the tactics available to use, really simple stuff mate, ccp will still get to justify their MJD bonuses, still get to justify not having RR aid in bastion, still justify not being able to move in bastion, get all the stuff that's on the board in the current proposal (minus web bonus changes) - just orientated toward achieving a different outcome - same things...different way, the result they're trying to achieve...and failing to reach due to the mis-conception that marauders don't work when infact they do. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:08:00 -
[3362] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Designing marauders for PvE is what ruined them in the first place. They need to be balanced for PvP because mission runners are just going to pick the ship that runs missions the quickest anyway. I agree but I would like to make 2 points:
1) PvE content doesn't end @ lvl4 missions. Harder PvE is where some ships can be situationally useful. Ofc, marauders require extensive training, but then again, it can be situational about that too (dread pilots won't have hard time training for marauder, for one);
2) PvP usefulness is what is supposed to save these ships from being least flown (at least somewhat...), but I'd like them to become something that isn't just BS-sized fleet "grunt" with T2 resists. I know that CCP intended new marauders to help not-so-large entities with some ISK at hand (EVE is full of those actually), but something didn't go well and now we are looking at ships that don't know what they do, or so it seems to me.
Wedgetail wrote:yes i do - marauders already fight attrition warfare, through utility high slots sporting remote repair modules, they sit back spider tanking raining death, this is what this iteration of bastion says it's trying to get them to do...just without the RR cuz..you're in bastion mode you can't receive remote aid, this means that if you're within the enemy's firing line while in bastion mode, you die - just as dreads die sieged to battleship alpha fleets now, no amount of self mounted repair modules will save you against a fleet. And this is what I'm talking about - bastions (and marauders by proxy) weren't intended for your average fleet battle in the first place. And that's why giving them rev.2 treatment looks like attemp of shoehorning them into "business as usual" general usage they can't do, but it is demanded still "cuz T2 resists on BS". |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:08:00 -
[3363] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:So perhaps balance the hulls for PVP, and the bastion module for PVE... or vice versa. Or a script for each ( shamelessly stolen from about 2/3 of the posts in this thread) If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
200
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:14:00 -
[3364] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Depends on the ship and the weapon systems. The greater the ship's innate ability to tank the more you can focus on other things like damage application and projection and the less tank you actually have to bring. Being able to perma-tank a mission is quite a nice luxury if you can't lower incoming DPS fast enough. Plus it's pretty fun watching ~1k of mission DPS splash off your tank with no red showing.
For reference if you fail to bring down incoming DPS there are Level 4 missions that do 1k DPS, give or take a little.
As for Level 5 missions, yes those are meant to be run by multiple people, however people figured out ages ago how to run them solo in a few select fits so they haven't really been serious multi-person content for years.
I fail to see why that's a compelling argument for retaining the rep bonus. Losing a little bit of tank against some NPC rats will not suddenly make these ships useless for PvE content. If anything it broadens the range of PvE content they can effectively be used for because of the overall increased resists. Retaining the current tanks for PvE just because a few people don't want to see any red on their tank during a site/mission/etc. isn't a good reason to retain it. Especially if it's at the expense of giving the ship greater usability overall. The issue with the "resists for rep" trade off is that it works as described for two ships, but two others (to include the Paladin) gain no resist bonus for their regionally prevalent rats to offset the 37.5% reduction in tank- resulting in the need to fit more modules to compensate. This reduces DPS, which reduces the amount of ISK you earn. This makes Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare that much more appealing, which defies the concept of a Tech 2 PvE focused Battleship. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:15:00 -
[3365] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:you spin me right round baby right round ,like a record baby round round right round.
I'm reasonabley certain that was so cfc can't flood highsec with fleets of the dame things.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
358
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:16:00 -
[3366] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:It would completely invalidate the ISK and SP investment of those players who already use the Marauder class for its current PVE focus.
And this is why I want them to refund marauder training SP with the marauder update. Refunding the SP allows them to fix the ships without having to worry about keeping the "waaaaah I trained marauders for PvE" people happy.
And pirate battleships are already better than marauders for every race except caldari, and have been for quite some time. |

Zoe Israfil
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:20:00 -
[3367] - Quote
Zoe Israfil wrote: The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
[Sorry for formatting this part is a quote from that Goon that's here a lot]
Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed.
For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here.[/quote]
[This is the end of that part that he said]
As a minnie pilot I actually agree. However, I personally think the bastion module/effect is the coolest thing since sliced cheese. I personally would not fly one of these without. I understand many people do not feel the same way. My previous writing was from the perspective that one would ALWAYS be using the bastion module. My current biggest reservation is currently to their mobility. I really wish there was a better way to control the jump range of the mjd. I really have been meaning to try find a way to control the range but it just seems like such a pain for those short/med gates (30 -50 k) |

The Sinister
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:26:00 -
[3368] - Quote
Way I see it is that Bastion Module is a Death Sentence for the ship in PVP.
Wont be able to: 1. Move 2. Jump a gate 3. Dock 4. Be remotely assisted in any way! Really!
Plus now it dosnt give a bonus to resistances either REALLY!
All that for 1 full minute LOL
Quik everyone activate bastion now! SUDDENLY A CYNO OPENS AND DREADNOUGHTS GET THEIR WISHES COME TRUE.
OH LOOK MARAUDERS SITTING DUCKS!!! Pew Pew DINNER is served. |

Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
358
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:35:00 -
[3369] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The issue with the "resists for rep" trade off is that it works as described for two ships, but two others (to include the Paladin) gain no resist bonus for their regionally prevalent rats to offset the 37.5% reduction in tank- resulting in the need to fit more modules to compensate. This reduces DPS, which reduces the amount of ISK you earn. This makes Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare that much more appealing, which defies the concept of a Tech 2 PvE focused Battleship.
Which is why the new marauders aren't suppose to be PvE focused battleships. Like every other ship in the game they're suppose to be ships that can be used in PvE, but giving them the PvE focus is what ruined them in the first place.
And seriously, if you can't 3 slot tank (4 w/bastion) amarr rats with the paladin you fail pretty hard at this game. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:43:00 -
[3370] - Quote
To quote the op "We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one," If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:47:00 -
[3371] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:The issue with the "resists for rep" trade off is that it works as described for two ships, but two others (to include the Paladin) gain no resist bonus for their regionally prevalent rats to offset the 37.5% reduction in tank- resulting in the need to fit more modules to compensate. This reduces DPS, which reduces the amount of ISK you earn. This makes Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare that much more appealing, which defies the concept of a Tech 2 PvE focused Battleship. Which is why the new marauders aren't suppose to be PvE focused battleships. Like every other ship in the game they're suppose to be ships that can be used in PvE, but giving them the PvE focus is what ruined them in the first place. And seriously, if you can't 3 slot tank (4 w/bastion) amarr rats with the paladin you fail pretty hard at this game.
Under the version 2 changes only the deadspace modules provide enough repair potential to tank all missions outside of bastion, thus requiring the use of the bastion module. The benefit of the TQ version is that with the assistance of the local rep bonus on the hull, you could do this with a Tech 2 fit if you chose to.
Adding a deadspace repair module to a faction/pirate hull also allows them to tank all missions. So you wind up with equal tanking potential between faction, pirate, and marauder hulls while the faction and pirate hulls provide better raw DPS and equal or better damage application. Damage projection would be the only benefit of the marauder class over their faction and pirate counterparts. That would not even come close to making up for the difference in training time and ISK cost. |

Zoe Israfil
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 18:58:00 -
[3372] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Ersahi Kir wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:The issue with the "resists for rep" trade off is that it works as described for two ships, but two others (to include the Paladin) gain no resist bonus for their regionally prevalent rats to offset the 37.5% reduction in tank- resulting in the need to fit more modules to compensate. This reduces DPS, which reduces the amount of ISK you earn. This makes Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare that much more appealing, which defies the concept of a Tech 2 PvE focused Battleship. Which is why the new marauders aren't suppose to be PvE focused battleships. Like every other ship in the game they're suppose to be ships that can be used in PvE, but giving them the PvE focus is what ruined them in the first place. And seriously, if you can't 3 slot tank (4 w/bastion) amarr rats with the paladin you fail pretty hard at this game. Under the version 2 changes only the deadspace modules provide enough repair potential to tank all missions outside of bastion, thus requiring the use of the bastion module. The benefit of the TQ version is that with the assistance of the local rep bonus on the hull, you could do this with a Tech 2 fit if you chose to. Adding a deadspace repair module to a faction/pirate hull also allows them to tank all missions. So you wind up with equal tanking potential between faction, pirate, and marauder hulls while the faction and pirate hulls provide better raw DPS and equal or better damage application. Damage projection would be the only benefit of the marauder class over their faction and pirate counterparts. That would not even come close to making up for the difference in training time and ISK cost.
But... they transform....
To me: worth it.
On a more serious note there will be no way that a faction battleship will out project a bastioned marauder, and even if they do, there are many rumors that blops/faction BS are on the chopping block next. IF faction BS's still remain better for missioning I would be highly suspicious of them retaining that crown for much longer.
Also I agree that while these new changes MIGHT take some of the "oomph" out of them as missioning ships, the increased tank/projection expands their use well beyond the current high sec lvl 4 paradigm.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:02:00 -
[3373] - Quote
Second, transformation is totally worth the isk/sp, bring it on If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:13:00 -
[3374] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
You are simply taking my post out of context. If you had kept up with this thread you would know that the intent of my posts is to compare the TQ, version 1, and version 2 proposals and draw conclusions on how they perform in various scenarios based on the differences. I can throw a bunch of faction/deadspace/officer modules into any fit and reach silly numbers with any hull. The point is to see where these hulls fit into the EVE ship ecosystem taking these changes into account.
If the overall tanking potential of these hulls is only slightly better then the pirate hulls, the pirate variants will always be better because they bring greater DPS potential. The devs have already indicated that they do not want to add a direct DPS bonus to the marauder class and have chosen to concentrate on damage projection and situational mobility. I'm simply looking at the numbers provided by practical fits and seeing how they fit within this stated goal and which usage roles benefit from the changes and which roles are adversely affected by them.
Exactly. Better resist profile = less tank modules needed = more dps modules = faster missions. How hard can it be to understand that?
Oh, and call me dumb but for those of you who say you can tank ANY level 4 mission: my Paladin with X-type rep and proper hardeners cannot tank: The Assault, The Dread Pirate Scarlet (when I fail to predict what rats will spawn) and the Blokade (when I mess the spawns) . I sometime feel its easier to tank a class 5 anomaly in WH (no it's not ;) ). Then again my Tengu tanks all lvl 4 pretty well... |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
201
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:22:00 -
[3375] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:The issue with the "resists for rep" trade off is that it works as described for two ships, but two others (to include the Paladin) gain no resist bonus for their regionally prevalent rats to offset the 37.5% reduction in tank- resulting in the need to fit more modules to compensate. This reduces DPS, which reduces the amount of ISK you earn. This makes Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare that much more appealing, which defies the concept of a Tech 2 PvE focused Battleship. Which is why the new marauders aren't suppose to be PvE focused battleships. Like every other ship in the game they're suppose to be ships that can be used in PvE, but giving them the PvE focus is what ruined them in the first place. And seriously, if you can't 3 slot tank (4 w/bastion) amarr rats with the paladin you fail pretty hard at this game. The PvE focus of these ships isn't what "ruined them."
What held them back, and continues to hold them back, is this conflict:
1. In Level 4 Missions, more DPS equals more ISK. A robust, sustained local tank, paired with high DPS, projection and application, is the ultimate mission runner.
2. Such a ship would obsolete many, many others in PvP, and would kill the soul of Tiericide for the Battleship class.
So the Marauder, as it currently exists, was an attempt to marry DPS, application (Web, TP), and durability while substantially reducing it's effectiveness in PvP. The reason this attempt was a failure was twofold:
1. Pirate (and some faction) Battleships are capable of dealing the same theoretical DPS, but their projection bonuses are stronger, their hulls are cheaper, and their velocity is faster. For this increased performance, you need only 1/4 the training time and 50-70% of the ISK.
2. Less significant, but relevant when you consider that Pirate BS's have stronger than average Sensor Strength, is that the way they chose to reduce Marauder PvP effectiveness (very low sensor strength,) makes these ships very vulnerable to NPC ECM as well.
Catering to PvE didn't break these ships. The dichotomy between catering to PvE without dominating PvP, combined with the superior performance of Pirate Battleships, did. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:31:00 -
[3376] - Quote
can we say that trying to make a marauder a pvp ship is what ruins them? for all i know marauder has been a pve ship ever since it came out. then noctis cames in and ruins the marauder for the pve. Now people are trying to find a pvp role for it . I just dont think marauder is designed for pvp. It is way too expensive to risk. You will never justify spending 1.5b BS when other cheaper bs are just as capable. of course this is only my opinion. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4590
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:38:00 -
[3377] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So perhaps balance the hulls for PVP, and the bastion module for PVE... or vice versa. Or a script for each ( shamelessly stolen from about 2/3 of the posts in this thread) Yeah, I know... the idea has some merit. But it also has the potential for taking the Bastion module places CCP doesn't want it to go into.
Remember, they want Marauders to have "more" of a PVP role, not become the defacto fleet doctrine for Null sec fleets.
That's why I'm leaning towards making the Marauder itself be at least a "serviceable" PVP vessel in and of itself, with Bastion mode giving it everything it needs to be a superb PVE vessel... although reversing that would work as well. Making the Bastion module be the key to both may do more harm to the Marauder class than good. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:50:00 -
[3378] - Quote
Derp. Meant to edit. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1510
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:53:00 -
[3379] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So perhaps balance the hulls for PVP, and the bastion module for PVE... or vice versa. Or a script for each ( shamelessly stolen from about 2/3 of the posts in this thread) Yeah, I know... the idea has some merit. But it also has the potential for taking the Bastion module places CCP doesn't want it to go into. Remember, they want Marauders to have "more" of a PVP role, not become the defacto fleet doctrine for Null sec fleets. That's why I'm leaning towards making the Marauder itself be at least a "serviceable" PVP vessel in and of itself, with Bastion mode giving it everything it needs to be a superb PVE vessel... although reversing that would work as well. Making the Bastion module be the key to both may do more harm to the Marauder class than good. It is clear they do not intend to increase the sensor strength of these ships, so the bastion module is what gives it some PvP merit, but the stationary aspect of it means they can and will get alphaed off the field. The 30% omni resistance from the first iteration prevented that much more than most will admit because they wanted them to be more fleet viable with T2 resists.
The MJD bonus is extremely situational and it would not bother me either way to see it stay or go. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4590
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 19:58:00 -
[3380] - Quote
For something completely different...
There is one weapons system in EVE that is...
1: Completely stationary. 2: Properly bonused can be deadly to anything from frigate size on up. 3: Works well at almost all ranges. 4: Works very well in PVE, especially in conjunction with a MJD. 5: Is very popular in certain fleet doctrines.
So what if the Marauder hull was based around a large drone bay instead, along with it's MJD advantages... and what if the Bastion module had bonuses that not only improved it's tank but also enhanced the range and tracking of sentry drones?
Transformed it would become a bit of a Death Star, surrounded by it's immobile sentry's. MJD is the primary method of movement for PVE sentry use anyway. Also the Marauder hull "could" be used as part of an existing sentry drone fleet, but Bastion mode would likely not be used due to lack of remote rep in that configuration.
Just food for thought, they would seem to be made for each other. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4590
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 20:09:00 -
[3381] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So perhaps balance the hulls for PVP, and the bastion module for PVE... or vice versa. Or a script for each ( shamelessly stolen from about 2/3 of the posts in this thread) Yeah, I know... the idea has some merit. But it also has the potential for taking the Bastion module places CCP doesn't want it to go into. Remember, they want Marauders to have "more" of a PVP role, not become the defacto fleet doctrine for Null sec fleets. That's why I'm leaning towards making the Marauder itself be at least a "serviceable" PVP vessel in and of itself, with Bastion mode giving it everything it needs to be a superb PVE vessel... although reversing that would work as well. Making the Bastion module be the key to both may do more harm to the Marauder class than good. It is clear they do not intend to increase the sensor strength of these ships, so the bastion module is what gives it some PvP merit, but the stationary aspect of it means they can and will get alphaed off the field. The 30% omni resistance from the first iteration prevented that much more than most will admit because they wanted them to be more fleet viable with T2 resists. The MJD bonus is extremely situational and it would not bother me either way to see it stay or go. Agreed to a large degree, but keep in mind something on the first and last point you made.
The immunity to EW effect of Bastion mode actually was probably incorporated with PVE in mind primarily. Marauders are easily shut down in many missions due to low sensor strength, and even ships with normal sensor strengths and such can struggle.
The MJD is very, very commonly used in missions. Not so much (as of yet) in PVP, so yes there it is pretty situational. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 20:34:00 -
[3382] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Agreed to a large degree, but keep in mind something on the first and last point you made.
The immunity to EW effect of Bastion mode actually was probably incorporated with PVE in mind primarily. Marauders are easily shut down in many missions due to low sensor strength, and even ships with normal sensor strengths and such can struggle.
The MJD is very, very commonly used in missions. Not so much (as of yet) in PVP, so yes there it is pretty situational. Even in PvE it tends to only truly shine with sentries, which actually already have some resistance to EWAR. The range amplification of Bastion helps the other weapons systems increase their attractiveness at MJD distances, but those that are largely falloff based will draw significant disadvantages at range.
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4591
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 20:45:00 -
[3383] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Agreed to a large degree, but keep in mind something on the first and last point you made.
The immunity to EW effect of Bastion mode actually was probably incorporated with PVE in mind primarily. Marauders are easily shut down in many missions due to low sensor strength, and even ships with normal sensor strengths and such can struggle.
The MJD is very, very commonly used in missions. Not so much (as of yet) in PVP, so yes there it is pretty situational. Even in PvE it tends to only truly shine with sentries, which actually already have some resistance to EWAR. The range amplification of Bastion helps the other weapons systems increase their attractiveness at MJD distances, but those that are largely falloff based will draw significant disadvantages at range. Sentry drone use benefits the most, yes... but it's starting to be a staple for anyone wishing to snipe as they come in, which opens up a larger variety of hulls and interesting fits. In those cases especially the EW immunity will certainly be a boon (especially vs damps or tracking disruptors) as it speeds up mission completion time significantly.
As far as range advantages go, I'd say they are pretty universal as they apply to turret optimal and fall off, as well as missile velocity.
Short range weapons extend their kill zone significantly with long range ammo, and long range weapons have no need to boost their range and can likely use short range, high damage ammo most of the time. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

marVLs
402
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 20:48:00 -
[3384] - Quote
First step choose primary role for them. Ok so let it be PVE because PVP with those costs for sub cap have no sense to be primary, then look how this PVE direction can give them little PVP possibility.
We got tractor bonus, it's good but should be at least x2 bigger otherwise it's wasted bonus. We got less ammo consuption, great but with less DPS than pirate and navy BS's it's no win, and 4 high damage guns like on golem sometimes make DPS even smaller because of wasted dmg in those salvos.
So what to do? The most important thing in PVE is time efficiency. Most of scenarios it's = highest DPS, speed is important too but You can always fit AB/MWD.
We got Bastion module, ok let it be, now it's important to give it bonuses so marauders will be better than pirate/navy BS's. EWAR immunity? Good with last NPC EWAR changes Better aplication/range? Always better More tank? Could be but it's not important, it won't speed up things. Some may say "bu bu but You can now fit more modules for DPS etc." how could i do it on Golem? Or 5th gyro on vargur?... it won't outperform DPS of pirate/navy BS's, and sitting still for 1min when You can kill stuff on the go for another pocket will cut time efficiency even more.
So yeah it's hard to rebalance them without increasing raw DPS so they will be best in thier role. I like that idea to make them better than pirate/navy BS's for PVE with something else than bigger DPS, but it's hard/tricky and current changes are too small (tractor bonus) , not useful or in bad direction.
Hope that CCP will figure this out, otherwise marauders will be useless. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
384
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 20:52:00 -
[3385] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:can we say that trying to make a marauder a pvp ship is what ruins them? for all i know marauder has been a pve ship ever since it came out. then noctis cames in and ruins the marauder for the pve. Now people are trying to find a pvp role for it . I just dont think marauder is designed for pvp. It is way too expensive to risk. You will never justify spending 1.5b BS when other cheaper bs are just as capable. of course this is only my opinion.
To me, the fact that the Marauder has exceptional difficulty being hammered into a PvP role means that there's too great a difference between PvP and PvE content, for one thing.
The other is that they're not trying to really address the issue in the right fashion. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
722
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:12:00 -
[3386] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Sentry drone use benefits the most, yes... but it's starting to be a staple for anyone wishing to snipe as they come in, which opens up a larger variety of hulls and interesting fits. In those cases especially the EW immunity will certainly be a boon (especially vs damps or tracking disruptors) as it speeds up mission completion time significantly.
As far as range advantages go, I'd say they are pretty universal as they apply to turret optimal and fall off, as well as missile velocity.
Short range weapons extend their kill zone significantly with long range ammo, and long range weapons have no need to boost their range and can likely use short range, high damage ammo most of the time.
I would still say the benefit is somewhat situational as while range amplification closes the gap somewhat between sniping performance and high DPS close-mid range fits, it still has drawbacks on causing some weapons to suffer heavy DPS loss to being in deep falloff if they hit at all at the longer end of MJD sniping. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4591
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:40:00 -
[3387] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Sentry drone use benefits the most, yes... but it's starting to be a staple for anyone wishing to snipe as they come in, which opens up a larger variety of hulls and interesting fits. In those cases especially the EW immunity will certainly be a boon (especially vs damps or tracking disruptors) as it speeds up mission completion time significantly.
As far as range advantages go, I'd say they are pretty universal as they apply to turret optimal and fall off, as well as missile velocity.
Short range weapons extend their kill zone significantly with long range ammo, and long range weapons have no need to boost their range and can likely use short range, high damage ammo most of the time.
I would still say the benefit is somewhat situational as while range amplification closes the gap somewhat between sniping performance and high DPS close-mid range fits, it still has drawbacks on causing some weapons to suffer heavy DPS loss to being in deep falloff if they hit at all at the longer end of MJD sniping. I know what you are saying (I'm not trying to be argumentative, just offering counter points). Just keep in mind that there is no reason you always have to MJD directly away from the NPC's. By jumping at various angles (or even completely the other side of the spawn) you can actually use a MJD to hit a wide variety of ranges from the target group.
This was a bit cumbersome before due to the cool down timer, but with the bonus to MJD use it becomes pretty easy to reposition where ever you wish to be in relation to the targets. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
479
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:42:00 -
[3388] - Quote
at least they should change the bastion deactivation to like this: you activate it has to run 1 cycle , but after that when it only takes 10 sec to unactivate, who thinks it is a good module when it needs average 30 sec to turn off possibly up to 60 , then you add warp off time 10 seconds... it warps to safe slower than a carrier from 0 , totally useless for 0.0 or low sec pve , when enemy can catch you from 2 jumps away before you can warp off
oh and it only gives tank and minimal optimal,the only good think is ewar immunity but then it is its drawback too ? :O it should give some dmg too , dunno much about pve but inst dps the limiting factor and not the repp amount?
I cant realy seem much use for this bastion module , it just doesnt give that much for its huge drawbacks and does that item should be the power of a marauder? no way
this whole marauder thing needs a rethink , probably the transformation is already in work so as usuall ccp will stick to that ,but everything other thing could and should be changed, drop out the current marauder and start from blank, it doesnt have to resemble the current marauder at all, just be unique and good for its role |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:46:00 -
[3389] - Quote
How about: Marauder hulls: as in current version
Paladin bonuses:
7.5% bonus to large energy turret optimal range 4% to all armor resistances 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking 5% bonus to large energy turret damage
Kronos bonuses:
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large hybrid turret falloff per 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers
Golem bonuses:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Vargur bonuses:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking 7.5% bonus to the range factor of stasis webifiers
Bastion Module:
Ewar immunity, 60s stationary, 25% falloff and optimal, increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%, increases shield and armor remote repair by 50%, can be remotely assisted, can fit only one rr.
Use: Lvl4 missions, Incursions, WH C3-C4, Small gang fleets.
If u think this overpowered consider: low lock time, no bonus to range on rr, is stationary with rr, can fit only one rr. Basically this would work if 2-4 marauder would spider tank but would be unable to replace logistic ships.
IMHO this is the only way this can work for all types of PvE and PvP. If you think it has to much tank consider that carrier costs as much as marauder and can remote rep much more effectively. Leave huge dps for Pirate BS.
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4591
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:48:00 -
[3390] - Quote
Oh, and yes, I still think the most natural weapons system the Marauder hull should be built around (especially considering it's MJD bonus and proposed T2 resists to the hull), and what the immobile Bastion mode should augment, is Sentry drone use.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:55:00 -
[3391] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:How about: Marauder hulls: as in current version
Paladin bonuses:
7.5% bonus to large energy turret optimal range 4% to all armor resistances 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking 5% bonus to large energy turret damage I like it.
Just make sure you add a bigger capacitor and I'm on board. Bastion would become an "oh ****" button for when I popped too many triggers or was jammed into the ground. I like it. CCP do this! |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
183
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 21:57:00 -
[3392] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:As I wrote earlier and what your statement seems to support is that for PvP it doesnGÇÖt matter where the resist hole is - it will be filled anyway with a proper mod for omnitank.
It does hugely matter in PvE where there is a fixed dmg type of rats and if a PvE boat that is supposed to fight those rats has a hole on their dmg types that this is just bad design. Fix Paladin and Vargur resists. Just swap them thatGÇÖs all that is needed.
I'd rather see the local repair bonus return in some form than see them break with the T2 resists convention (likely to the complaining of everyone planning to use these ships for incursions or PvP).
Beckett Firesnake wrote:BS with 2 sets of small drones only? Not a lot. I would let a bandwith/bay of 50/75 to 50/100 on these ships. It is not so much...
Tons of Battleships have this or little drone-bay. The Rokh is one good example, the Apocalypse is another. Seems to come pretty standard with the really tanky ships and a host of other T1 battleships have only 75 bandwidth and drone bay.
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Does anyone here know how mission runners fit their kronos' at the moment? I'd be keen to know as I've never seen one being used on TQ other than for combat-salvaging a c5 sleeper site.
pls "like" the post if you reply so I can find the answer, or mail me in game.
ps. I'm not trolling, just be keen to know. I always assumed it would be rails & perma-tank, but ytterbium's demo post a few hundred pages back made me wonder.
Ytterbium was fitting for the increased range of Bastion and the reduced tank, in general you would either do a MWD, webs, and Blasters (fun, but not necessarily optimal) or Rails, with a MWD, or AB and webs for anything that you can't track with the rails and the drones don't finish off while you're blasting through Battleships.
Wedgetail wrote:yup, that's about right, though t3 are specialised not generalised, they just have more parts to chose from upon their construction that give them the ability to appear more general, faction ships sit in the center - beign t1, and t2 steer towards one specific idea, the idea of the marauders...is versatility, cuz..you can specialise at being versatile yea? :)
so while your pirate BS do a little more direct damage, a marauder will say instead of that damage, we'll take RR and or cap modules instead, so we can adapt better to a change of circumstance, or perform better under fire, increasing our combat effectiveness over all compared to the faction equivalent :)
that picture, while being very simple, does the job - though it may take a more detailed breakdown for most people to notice i think ;)
Generalized in the sense of "Jack of all trades, master of none". Not in the sense that each T3 in a fleet won't be filling one or two specialized roles.
Post-T3 Rebalance the idea seems to be that they'll be able to do a lot of things well but none of them better than the base hull that's specialized in them. We're already seeing a bit of this with the Command Ship changes.
For T2 the Marauders seem to be focusing on tank and damage projection/application, not on being more versatile. See: Battleship sized HACs are a bad idea...
You can, of-course, always fit a ship for any number of situations but a ship's bonuses determine its specialization. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
183
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 22:25:00 -
[3393] - Quote
Isinero wrote:I rechecked bonuses ... (after change)
and 37,5% repair amount = T2 resists
Result is really nearly the same. (maybe something like +5 - 10 EHP regen per sec for T2 ressits.)
Not sure how it will be for active shield tank. For passive shield tank this can be really big advantage :-D
Except that mission rats don't do omni damage! 
Check your math again.
Ersahi Kir wrote:Designing marauders for PvE is what ruined them in the first place. They need to be balanced for PvP because mission runners are just going to pick the ship that runs missions the quickest anyway.
Would be nice to not see the people who already use these hulls have their training invalidated.
Also people run missions for a variety of reasons and with a variety of skill-sets. Not everyone uses "the most efficient hull available".
Wedgetail wrote:it can, but ccp will have to stop focusing on making their changes prioritise defensive tactics, you don't win by isolating yourself from your allies, you don't win by sitting dead still and allowing your enemy to kill you on their terms and you don't win by allowing your opponent the room they need to simply ignore you.
you win by crushing them under your heel with unavoidable force, marauders by default fight at long range - with exception of the kronos (which still can but its current bonus set prioritises close quarters)
give the marauder hulls their optimal/falloff bonus, give them the rate of fire/damage bonus, the repair amount boost bonus and their tracking bonus - this means the default stance to a marauder is to sit at long range and skirmish (like they already do)
allowing them to continue doing what they do already, THEN for the bastion module, invert the role entirely, make its focus an all or nothing attack move, marauders are violent they don't huddle back off in the distance when things get bad they get very angry and aggressive, they defend by attacking indiscriminately - thus removing the thing causing them harm - or perishing in the attempt, this way marauders get a new function, and keep their old one at the same time - all peeps go home happy.
"Niche PvP Applications"
Not "PvP god-boat".
The Marauders are unlikely to be useful for everyone in every PvP situation, but that's the nature of T2 specialization. If you want raw damage then I suggest you wait for the pirate battleship re-balance. Giving them massive damage boost over the Pirate Battleships just creates power creep.
Also stop trying to balance against the definition of a word, it makes for poor game design.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:I fail to see why that's a compelling argument for retaining the rep bonus. Losing a little bit of tank against some NPC rats will not suddenly make these ships useless for PvE content. If anything it broadens the range of PvE content they can effectively be used for because of the overall increased resists. Retaining the current tanks for PvE just because a few people don't want to see any red on their tank during a site/mission/etc. isn't a good reason to retain it. Especially if it's at the expense of giving the ship greater usability overall.
The extra tank and thus the increased cap stability and/or option for more utility slots is the main reason to use these ships over Pirate Battleships at present. "Greater overall usability" is entirely subjective and since the only major use of these hulls at present is in mission running and other PvE content it seems fair that we should avoid invalidating the time and skill training these pilots have put into these ships if possible. A local repair bonus is not a death sentence for a hull, plenty of ships have them and are used in PvP and PvE, whether they're making use of said bonus or not. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 22:28:00 -
[3394] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The problem is that by lowering the tank, the differences between the Marauder class and the pirate/faction hulls becomes too narrow making the those alternatives far more attractive because they will bring almost the same effective tanking potential, but with greater maneuverability, raw damage, less training time, and less ISK investment. Why train for and fly a marauder if the faction/pirate hulls match it or exceed it in most ways.
There's this infographic halfway through this ship balance devblog that explains why this is. Likewise, why weren't these exact same complaints being used for HAC's when they were being rebalanced compared to faction cruiser hulls? T2 cruisers are typically less maneuverable, have less raw damage, require more training time, bring comparible tanks for regional rats, and (with some exceptions) also require greater isk investment. Since T2 is all about specialization, it looks like CCP is trying to add real specialization to marauders with the bastion module. Killing NPC's isn't a specialized task and giving a tractor beam bonus doesn't make the ship specialized for PvE (despite what the description might say).
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The issue with the "resists for rep" trade off is that it works as described for two ships, but two others (to include the Paladin) gain no resist bonus for their regionally prevalent rats to offset the 37.5% reduction in tank- resulting in the need to fit more modules to compensate. This reduces DPS, which reduces the amount of ISK you earn. This makes Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare that much more appealing, which defies the concept of a Tech 2 PvE focused Battleship.
From the OP...
Quote:We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
Their proposed role is no longer going to be just a PvE focused battleship. Like I mentioned previously as well, a tractor beam bonus is hardly grounds for being claiming a ship is specialized for PvE. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
183
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 22:32:00 -
[3395] - Quote
Zoe Israfil wrote:Zoe Israfil wrote: The T2 resists will make them more viable for missioning level 4's (not really like you're going to need the tank with bastion but at least you have it). Their increased projection should help with bringing mission completion times down, especially if one gets really good at planning triangles. This alone should be a huge buff in the eyes of the high sec marauder-missioner. The T2 resists combined with bastion's local tank bonus also should make them small gang pvp viable / WH viable / anom-combatsignature viable. I think in retrospect the +30% resists were way too strong, and the current option provides plenty of tank for people to explore coupled with a cool idea (transforming is so cool... why ppl h8ting mini dreads that can go through hi-sec?). Furthermore the stationary/sieged dynamic will be a really neat change to PVP (small scale).
[Sorry for formatting this part is a quote from that Goon that's here a lot] Except that T2 tank and no local-rep bonus on the hull mean that if you don't want to use Bastion you're getting an overall mission-tanking nerf on the Vargur and Paladin but a major buff on the Kronos and Golem due to how damage in missions is distributed. For a small dissertation on this issue see my previous post way back here.
[This is the end of that part that he said]
As a minnie pilot I actually agree. However, I personally think the bastion module/effect is the coolest thing since sliced cheese. I personally would not fly one of these without. I understand many people do not feel the same way. My previous writing was from the perspective that one would ALWAYS be using the bastion module. My current biggest reservation is currently to their mobility. I really wish there was a better way to control the jump range of the mjd. I really have been meaning to try find a way to control the range but it just seems like such a pain for those short/med gates (30 -50 k)[/quote]
I am not a goon! 
Also you can nest quotes FYI |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 22:45:00 -
[3396] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Except that the resist profile is not particularly better on 2 out of the 4, especially compared to the damage they deal (which determines which rats they're likely to want to fight)
Mate pls read what I wrote. A completely agree. I wrote about resists profile not overall resists. Pali and Vargur don't need their resist increased. They need their resists shifted. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
183
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 22:46:00 -
[3397] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Mate pls read what I wrote. A completely agree. I wrote about resists profile not overall resists. Pali and Vargur don't need their resist increased. They need their resists shifted.
I did, there's nothing to indicate that you meant anything about shifting the resists.
Also as I mentioned in another post, shifting resists would just **** off another segment of the PvE crowd along with the PvP people as well.
This whole point becomes largely moot if they get the local repair bonus back on the hulls.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:There's this infographic halfway through this ship balance devblog that explains why this is. Likewise, why weren't these exact same complaints being used for HAC's when they were being rebalanced compared to faction cruiser hulls? T2 cruisers are typically less maneuverable, have less raw damage, require more training time, bring comparible tanks for regional rats, and (with some exceptions) also require greater isk investment. Since T2 is all about specialization, it looks like CCP is trying to add real specialization to marauders with the bastion module. Killing NPC's isn't a specialized task and giving a tractor beam bonus doesn't make the ship specialized for PvE (despite what the description might say).
No, but the solution to this isn't to kill their PvE utility either.
What makes a ship specialized is unique bonuses like the ability to fit the Bastion module or the MJD bonus. These both can be applied, situationally, to either PvP or PvE.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Their proposed role is no longer going to be just a PvE focused battleship. Like I mentioned previously as well, a tractor beam bonus is hardly grounds for being claiming a ship is specialized for PvE.
No, but Ytterbium's posts have focused on PvE situations, the majority of their use currently is in PvE, and it's pretty clear that neither the devs nor the player-base (or at least that segment that currently uses Marauders) want their PvE viability to be nerfed, especially if it's to turn them into a PvP god-ship... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 23:53:00 -
[3398] - Quote
How about those of you following this thread interested in the PVP application of this ship class come up with good uses and scenarios for the marauder class as proposed instead of just saying, "But PVP!" or "But T2 Resists!". I'm having trouble coming up with anything that makes a lot of sense. If you don't want to use the bastion module because of the drawbacks, you are left with a hull that has:
- Terrible sensor strength
- T2 Resists
- Less DPS than Pirate and some faction hulls
- Slightly better damage projection
- Terrible local maneuverability
- MJD bonus
- Almost no drone bandwidth and small drone bay
- 4 utility high slots
- Lowish EHP
The low sensor strength and slow local movement are huge detractors for these hulls in PVP. Although you do get T2 resists, the inherent flaws in the hull like lower EHP make this less interesting. A single EWAR module could put this ship out of the fight until your opponent is ready to put you down. Not to mention the SP requirements and cost of the hull are prohibitive. When compared to Pirate and Faction alternatives why would you fly one of these in a PVP situation?
If you do use the bastion module the list of benefits increases to include a local rep bonus, better damage projection, and EWAR immunity. Although you get to scratch the low sensor strength off the list above, you also have to add immobility for 60 seconds, the activation of a weapons timer, and the exclusion of remote assistance to the list of "bad" things.
As they stand now I can only think of 2 niche PVP roles that MIGHT make sense if you use the bastion module. They are rooted in the concept around being in a position where RR is unlikely to begin with so that the exclusion of RR is no longer relevant.
First, a remote sniper role would work. The marauder stays at extreme range from the conflict and deals steady damage while the remainder of his group work close in like normal. You wouldn't post a dedicated logi on that type of role in a small gang so he can feel free to bastion up. He's still in danger of being pinned if a tackle can get there while he's bastioned but it's at least a plausible PVP role.
The second option would be to act as a sort of area denial platform or tip-of-the-spear deployment. The marauder would MJD into the target area and bastion. Nuets, weapons, and other utility would be leveraged immediately after entering bastion. The idea is to scatter the opponents initially with enough self tanking capability to survive until the remainder of your group can engage on their terms. You would have to be enough of a threat to make the opponent at least respond to your presence and allow your group to position.
That's about all I can think of at the moment. Anyone else have any vague ideas on how this version of the rebalance could be used? |

Darren Foster
Occultum Associates
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 00:55:00 -
[3399] - Quote
*sigh* I was hoping not to have to post this in here, but I guess I will have to.
First and foremost, make the marauders viable WITHOUT the gorram module. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice fancy bonus, but I have no intention of ever fitting it. The loss of remote repping and the loss of mobility make fitting that module utterly worthless to me in both PvP and PvE, no matter the bonuses it provides. Immunity to EW almost makes it worth losing one of those, but not both.
Secondly, MJDs? Still? They're pointless for a reason. You can rarely use them in missions, they're nearly worthless in PvP (reasonable escape module, but meh), and their fitting costs (loosing a mid slot, specifically) are painful. If you allow MJDs to have a variable distance (between 50 and 250 km; the distance decided when you activate it in the field) *AND* let it work in missions, it might be remotely useful to people. I'll still take my MWD tho. If you make it an innate ability of the ship and remove MJDs altogether, I'll gladly take it. Otherwise, no thanks. It's just not viable over my MWD.
Lastly: here's a set of bonuses that might actually make people happy (I say "might" because there is no guarantee it'll work). Give 'em Tech 2 resists, keep the bonuses as they are now (with the addition of the role bonuses "Can fit Bastion modules" and "X adjustment to MJD" as you like, maybe a bit of tuning on the amount of the current bonuses without changing the bonus type) and keep the drone bays as they are. This way people can actually have some choice in how they fit the ship, but still have it be very good for sniping with the reworks you want. It will let marauders as a whole be a varied, functional, and useful battleships, rather than just being incredibly expensive trash cans.
That's my 2 cents. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
178
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 00:58:00 -
[3400] - Quote
MJD's do work in missions. I like the suggestion of a variable distance (similar to how you set orbit, warp to distance, etc.) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Darren Foster
Occultum Associates
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:03:00 -
[3401] - Quote
Oh? Last I checked they weren't usable in deadspaces. It'd give you that "local phenomena is interfering" pop-up. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've bothered fitting one, but I don't recall spotting that in any patch notes. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
178
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:07:00 -
[3402] - Quote
Darren Foster wrote:Oh? Last I checked they weren't usable in deadspaces. It'd give you that "local phenomena is interfering" pop-up. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've bothered fitting one, but I don't recall spotting that in any patch notes.
They're quite useful on CNR's as you can just MJD, orbit at 150km and snipe (they're scram immune, too). I thought it was odd that they worked, especially since the "warp to" option is a no-go. I can't honestly remember an L4 mission where they didn't work, so someone please jump-in and correct me if this is not the case. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Darren Foster
Occultum Associates
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:11:00 -
[3403] - Quote
huh.... well, this will prompt an edit then :P |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
185
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:15:00 -
[3404] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:They're quite useful on CNR's as you can just MJD, orbit at 150km and snipe (they're scram immune, too). I thought it was odd that they worked, especially since the "warp to" option is a no-go. I can't honestly remember an L4 mission where they didn't work, so someone please jump-in and correct me if this is not the case.
They're not scram immune, mission rats just have 2 point disruptors, not scrams even though the effect says "Warp Scrambled".
Darren Foster wrote:Oh? Last I checked they weren't usable in deadspaces. It'd give you that "local phenomena is interfering" pop-up. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've bothered fitting one, but I don't recall spotting that in any patch notes.
You can use a MJD in any mission you can use a MWD in, which is all but a very small minority these days. You still can't warp on the local grid, but you can very much use a MWD or MJD. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:22:00 -
[3405] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:They're not scram immune, mission rats just have 2 point disruptors, not scrams even though the effect says "Warp Scrambled"..
Disrupted, then. And I believe they're 1-point disruptors, since 2-points does kill MJD (and warp cores don't help). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
185
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:30:00 -
[3406] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:They're not scram immune, mission rats just have 2 point disruptors, not scrams even though the effect says "Warp Scrambled".. Disrupted, then. And I believe they're 1-point disruptors, since 2-points does kill MJD (and warp cores don't help).
It's a side-effect of the Scram, not a function of how many points you have active on you. There are 2 point Officer Warp Disruptors that are won't affect a MWD or MJD. I could be wrong about the point strength on mission rats but I know they don't turn off your MWD or MJD regardless of what the module they're using says it is. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 03:54:00 -
[3407] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
"Niche PvP Applications"
Not "PvP god-boat".
The Marauders are unlikely to be useful for everyone in every PvP situation, but that's the nature of T2 specialization. If you want raw damage then I suggest you wait for the pirate battleship re-balance. Giving them massive damage boost over the Pirate Battleships just creates power creep.
Also stop trying to balance against the definition of a word, it makes for poor game design.
I don't want raw damage, I want an option that doesn't focus on boxing myself into a figurative ball and killing anything that tries to come close, the current bastion proposal makes these ships unassailable to everything but alpha, what i suggest instead is to give them the option to be effectively suicidal.
you have on these ships with proposed bastion:
massive repair rates, HUGE damage projection through combination of tracking optimal/falloff stasis webs AND damage bonus, huge cap warfare through 2/3 vamps/nuets NOTHING can approach these hulls in bastion it'll all die trying - and even if they do get in tackle range to do something about these hulls...guess what? they're ewar immune, so you can't grab hold of em even if you wanted to.
and you think what i suggest makes them a god boat?
for every action i can take in a fight i must have to put myself at real risk to do it - this version of bastion doesn't do that - the only vulnerability it leaves is alpha strikes, and those will kill you bastion or no - ccp designing ships around "oh my god quick lets pull range to where they can't get us and just bunker down!!"
all i'm giving them is the ability to single out one guy on the field at the expense of mobility and range, fleet doctrines that already exist (tier 3 battle cruisers notably) will be able to dodge this ship as easily as they could alpha them off the field under the current proposal.
side note: a bastion is a castle, a fortress designed to shelter the ones inside from harm, a defensive option of last resort - ccp's current iteration more closely matches the definition of a walled unassailable stronghold than what i suggested, and why i chose to counter them on their terms by using the idea of a marauder, being an entity that doesn't rely on bastions. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:10:00 -
[3408] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I fail to see why that's a compelling argument for retaining the rep bonus. Losing a little bit of tank against some NPC rats will not suddenly make these ships useless for PvE content. If anything it broadens the range of PvE content they can effectively be used for because of the overall increased resists. Retaining the current tanks for PvE just because a few people don't want to see any red on their tank during a site/mission/etc. isn't a good reason to retain it. Especially if it's at the expense of giving the ship greater usability overall. The extra tank and thus the increased cap stability and/or option for more utility slots is the main reason to use these ships over Pirate Battleships at present. "Greater overall usability" is entirely subjective and since the only major use of these hulls at present is in mission running and other PvE content it seems fair that we should avoid invalidating the time and skill training these pilots have put into these ships if possible. A local repair bonus is not a death sentence for a hull, plenty of ships have them and are used in PvP and PvE, whether they're making use of said bonus or not.
The only SP invested that could be 'wasted' is in the marauder skill itself, all other skills are transferable to other ships in the game. Even the ship/modules could be sold to recover the ISK spent. Likewise, in reference to the T2 resists vs. rep bonus, I'd like to point out something in the marauder description...
Quote:Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments
A Paladin isn't in hostile space if the space is controlled by Amarr empire. Take a look at the T2 resists and how they compare to NPC damage types in Minmatar space though (and vice versa for a Vargur in Amarr space). You argue that the T2 resists make the ship weak, I argue that you've been using the wrong ship for the space you've been flying in this entire time. :P
As for the Faction BS vs. Marauder debate, here's an interesting excerpt from the original dev blog with the faction ship changes...
Quote:Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them.
It would appear to me that perhaps faction ships are working as intended since their last balance pass. :)
Finally, I have not said that rep bonuses are a death sentence for any ship. I've been saying that a proper resist profile is stronger than a rep bonus, which is why all ships with resist bonuses were recently nerfed and may even be nerfed again in the future. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:15:00 -
[3409] - Quote
Only the shield tanked marauders can reach "invulnerable except for alpha" status with 3-5k dps tanks (with only a deadspace booster and T2 support) due to the availability of oversized repair modules. The armor tanked hulls top out around 1800 dps tanks with a deadspace repper. Add an additional 500mil worth of deadspace support and you can get into the shield levels. Just three ships with 800 dps apiece will kill a bastioned armor hull in less than 40 seconds due to raw dps, not alpha.
There's too many mixed messages from the hull bonuses coupled with the lackluster bastion module to really even figure out what role is intended for this ship class. I think we're just going to have to wait for the devs to put together a more fleshed out plan and go from there. I think we can all (PVP, PVE mission, and PVE wh/incursion pilots alike) agree that the current version doesn't really please anyone all that much. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
185
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:16:00 -
[3410] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:I don't want raw damage, I want an option that doesn't focus on boxing myself into a figurative ball and killing anything that tries to come close, the current bastion proposal makes these ships unassailable to everything but alpha, what i suggest instead is to give them the option to be effectively suicidal.
you have on these ships with proposed bastion:
massive repair rates, HUGE damage projection through combination of tracking optimal/falloff stasis webs AND damage bonus, huge cap warfare through 2/3 vamps/nuets NOTHING can approach these hulls in bastion it'll all die trying - and even if they do get in tackle range to do something about these hulls...guess what? they're ewar immune, so you can't grab hold of em even if you wanted to.
and you think what i suggest makes them a god boat?
for every action i can take in a fight i must have to put myself at real risk to do it - this version of bastion doesn't do that - the only vulnerability it leaves is alpha strikes, and those will kill you bastion or no - ccp designing ships around "oh my god quick lets pull range to where they can't get us and just bunker down!!"
all i'm giving them is the ability to single out one guy on the field at the expense of mobility and range, fleet doctrines that already exist (tier 3 battle cruisers notably) will be able to dodge this ship as easily as they could alpha them off the field under the current proposal.
side note: a bastion is a castle, a fortress designed to shelter the ones inside from harm, a defensive option of last resort - ccp's current iteration more closely matches the definition of a walled unassailable stronghold than what i suggested, and why i chose to counter them on their terms by using the idea of a marauder, being an entity that doesn't rely on bastions.
I have made clear repeatedly that I'm not a fan of web effectiveness bonuses, if you missed that then here it is again. I'm not a fan of web effectiveness bonuses. They're over-powered. If you'd like an explanation as to why then I can certainly provide one.
As for the "unassailable by everything but alpha" argument, I really don't think so. Even with an absolutely beastly local tank you're still looking at a rather slim buffer compared to a lot of other battleships which means if they can break your tank you're going to go down pretty quickly.
Something like a dual ASB Vargur can probably tank quite a bit of DPS for a long time but won't actually be able to hurt anything very much and probably won't have the slots left to make use of the web bonus.
You don't need to pin down a Marauder in Bastion any more than you need to pin down a Dreadnaught in Siege except that these things don't have Jump Drives so they can't jump out. Once they've started moving they've got double digit align times or a MJD cycle to go through before they can escape meaning you've got plenty of time to put a long point on them.
So, yes, I have massively more of a problem with damage bonused ships jumping around while EWar immune than with CCP's current proposal, especially when your entire argument against it seems to assume that the enemy doesn't have very much DPS and is going to approach the thing by aligning straight at it rather than circling in. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:20:00 -
[3411] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:A Paladin isn't in hostile space if the space is controlled by Amarr empire. Take a look at the T2 resists and how they compare to NPC damage types in Minmatar space though (and vice versa for a Vargur in Amarr space). You argue that the T2 resists make the ship weak, I argue that you've been using the wrong ship for the space you've been flying in this entire time. :P
Lore or description wise, ok sure. However from a mechanics and mission efficiency standpoint, shooting lasers into your enemy's best and second best resists doesn't sound very appealing. Also, the reverse example you gave of a vargur in amarr space has a distinct advantage since they have selectable damage ammo. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:29:00 -
[3412] - Quote
Quote:Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them.
It would appear to me that perhaps faction ships are working as intended since their last balance pass. :)
Finally, I have not said that rep bonuses are a death sentence for any ship. I've been saying that a proper resist profile is stronger than a rep bonus, which is why all ships with resist bonuses were recently nerfed and may even be nerfed again in the future.[/quote]
..which is why pirate ships have greater base damage but less utility, they mirror the equivalent t2 ships in role but are only as good/better at one part of the t2's role, compared on the whole and in a wider range of circumstances the t2's will almost always be rated higher (i've found the smaller the ship hull is the more useful the faction variant seems over the t2, while this isn't necessarily the case, it's something Ive put down to being a by product of limited fitting space/ability on (some of) the smaller hulls when compared to the heavier ones)
think back, compare the cynabal and phantasm with ships like the vagabond and zealot (prior the recent rebalance) compare the dramiel to the t2 interceptors compare the battle ships with the marauders
notice the similarities? and the performance shifts? everything you've been saying regarding the pirate hulls is accurate, they are good at doing one thing, t2 are good at doing one thing - but also have a bit of extra off the side (the amount they have is as i said, dependent often on hull class)
in almost all cases the t2 were better at doing the same job than faction as you go up the hull classes in pvp, why?
because t2 ships have a broader range of options than the very focused faction hulls, pirate's built to do just one thing better than the t2, and fall just short everywhere else - (normally the shortcoming is on the defensive side of the scale due to resistance profiles, speed, sensor strength etc etc) they are not big differences at first glance but they do matter when you're moving between different and not easily predictable engagement scenarios (pvp).
(granted the phantasm was a terrible ship, shoulda used another example like the ashimmu and curse XD) |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:32:00 -
[3413] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Quote:Quote:Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them. It would appear to me that perhaps faction ships are working as intended since their last balance pass. :) Finally, I have not said that rep bonuses are a death sentence for any ship. I've been saying that a proper resist profile is stronger than a rep bonus, which is why all ships with resist bonuses were recently nerfed and may even be nerfed again in the future. ..which is why pirate ships have greater base damage but less utility, they mirror the equivalent t2 ships in role but are only as good/better at one part of the t2's role, compared on the whole and in a wider range of circumstances the t2's will almost always be rated higher (i've found the smaller the ship hull is the more useful the faction variant seems over the t2, while this isn't necessarily the case, it's something Ive put down to being a by product of limited fitting space/ability on (some of) the smaller hulls when compared to the heavier ones) think back, compare the cynabal and phantasm with ships like the vagabond and zealot (prior the recent rebalance) compare the dramiel to the t2 interceptors compare the battle ships with the marauders notice the similarities? and the performance shifts? everything you've been saying regarding the pirate hulls is accurate, they are good at doing one thing, t2 are good at doing one thing - but also have a bit of extra off the side (the amount they have is as i said, dependent often on hull class) in almost all cases the t2 were better at doing the same job than faction as you go up the hull classes in pvp, why? because t2 ships have a broader range of options than the very focused faction hulls, pirate's built to do just one thing better than the t2, and fall just short everywhere else - (normally the shortcoming is on the defensive side of the scale due to resistance profiles, speed, sensor strength etc etc) they are not big differences at first glance but they do matter when you're moving between different and not easily predictable engagement scenarios (pvp). (granted the phantasm was a terrible ship, shoulda used another example like the ashimmu and curse XD)
They've also repeatedly given hints that some of the more problematic Pirate hulls are going to get toned down and as I quoted above, the "Pirate hulls are specialized" bit no longer holds true so it seems rather likely that we're going to see them shift toward being more powerful T1 hulls with less in the way of specialized characteristics or bonuses so they don't step so hard on certain T2 hulls. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:46:00 -
[3414] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
They've also repeatedly given hints that some of the more problematic Pirate hulls are going to get toned down and as I quoted above, the "Pirate hulls are specialized" bit no longer holds true so it seems rather likely that we're going to see them shift toward being more powerful T1 hulls with less in the way of specialized characteristics or bonuses so they don't step so hard on certain T2 hulls.
they have, personally I have no issues with how the pirate hulls work now, because my understanding of t2 is that they can do the same role just with a slightly different set of advantages - the more options I have in pvp in terms of ships that do different variations of things the better combat is overall.
i want to be able to anticipate what the opposition might do, which tools i might need, i want to be able to build fleet doctrines tailored around the specific edge advantages each hull group gives me - if i need more raw damage potential i'll use pirate hulls, but if i need something that can act more defensively or subversively i'll take marauders (marauders with MJD would be great for under cutting cap chain logistics ships for example)
the differences don't have to be large but i do like them to be more or less equivalent, so where one ship falls short it compensates by doing something else better. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:55:00 -
[3415] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:they have, personally I have no issues with how the pirate hulls work now, because my understanding of t2 is that they can do the same role just with a slightly different set of advantages - the more options I have in pvp in terms of ships that do different variations of things the better combat is overall.
i want to be able to anticipate what the opposition might do, which tools i might need, i want to be able to build fleet doctrines tailored around the specific edge advantages each hull group gives me - if i need more raw damage potential i'll use pirate hulls, but if i need something that can act more defensively or subversively i'll take marauders (marauders with MJD would be great for under cutting cap chain logistics ships for example)
the differences don't have to be large but i do like them to be more or less equivalent, so where one ship falls short it compensates by doing something else better.
On this at least we can agree, that's more or less the essence of game balance, especially in a tradeoffs based system like Eve Online's.
Personally though I'm more in favor of the hulls being fairly functional without the Bastion module than have it produce extremely powerful effects that the hull needs to perform well. |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 05:02:00 -
[3416] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:they have, personally I have no issues with how the pirate hulls work now, because my understanding of t2 is that they can do the same role just with a slightly different set of advantages - the more options I have in pvp in terms of ships that do different variations of things the better combat is overall.
i want to be able to anticipate what the opposition might do, which tools i might need, i want to be able to build fleet doctrines tailored around the specific edge advantages each hull group gives me - if i need more raw damage potential i'll use pirate hulls, but if i need something that can act more defensively or subversively i'll take marauders (marauders with MJD would be great for under cutting cap chain logistics ships for example)
the differences don't have to be large but i do like them to be more or less equivalent, so where one ship falls short it compensates by doing something else better.
so.. tell us what are the different advantages and disadvantages between pirate bs-es and compare them to marauders.
dont give us pretty story about doctrines and whatnot tailoring **** around space and time... write something useful already, do some analyzing
what is that magical bonus of marauder+mjd to uncer cut cap chain logis? |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 05:29:00 -
[3417] - Quote
A couple things from a pve standpoint:
Since mobility is decreasing and engagement range is increasing, could the bonus to tractor beams be increased? Maybe 200%? 60km t1, 72km t2
I don't like that all of them are getting web bonuses. I can't see fitting one over a tc, and it takes away from diversity amongst marauders. |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:25:00 -
[3418] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:How about:
Golem bonuses:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Even with the current proposed bastion module bonus this is a Golem I could get behind.
What I would like to see though is a way to make local tanking workable when not in bastion as well by providing the old hull rep bonus.
Give it the old 37.5% rep bonus, then Bastion would add 62.5% on top of that. This ensures that even while not in bastion that you have a workable tank (i.e. not needing a boost amp) while reducing bastion repping to levels not so crazy that it can solo tank Incursions. This means you still have enough mids for the TP/s, dual prop, hardeners, etc.
I think it would be a good thing to not be so dependent on the bastion module to provide all the tank, meaning we could see more "variety" in the fits.
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:29:00 -
[3419] - Quote
I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
385
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:34:00 -
[3420] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.
a) "HURr DuRR 10 KILOMETER WEBS ON A 145 KM CRUISE MISSILE SHIP, OR A ~35 KM TORP SHIP"
b) You're right- you don't really need a rep bonus for PvE activities. But you might for small scale PvP. CCP wants to bring Marauders into PvP. But these changes will do nothing but IMO permanently bar them from it. :\ |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:41:00 -
[3421] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.
TP bonus on BS makes more sense especially on a slow moving /stationary BS like maraufer. On the other hand the could make the bastion module give a web range bonus like 300 percent but decrease the effectiveness by 50%(less OP) so you can actually get to use the web more than once a day. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:41:00 -
[3422] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
On this at least we can agree, that's more or less the essence of game balance, especially in a tradeoffs based system like Eve Online's.
Personally though I'm more in favor of the hulls being fairly functional without the Bastion module than have it produce extremely powerful effects that the hull needs to perform well.
which is why i suggested keeping the current marauder bonuses as they are, and tailoring the bastion module to facilitating a different mode of combat to what the marauder's are already capable of doing, rather than just trying to take what the marauders already do and feed them steroids to the point where they become untouchable but with 1400mm howitzers.
as for the logistics chains i'll make this very simple:
two fleets encounter each other, both have logis
one fleet has marauders, marauders have 100km gun range and 3 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
one fleet has pirate battleships, which have 100km gun range and 1-2 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
both have MJD
both teams logi will seek to scatter away from the battleships to increase their survival odds, and to make the enemy try to chase them down to waste time (this is normal, ECM ships also do this same thing)
the area a logistics ship can spread out in is ~70km wide ~30 km from the near side of the fleet relative to the logi cruiser
with a MJD both teams can spend one battleship per logi to jump toward and hopefully land on top of wherever they starburst to
once landed, as you do not lose a target lock when you use the MJD the logi cruisers are buried in energy warfare and raw damage.
..the marauders will kill off the logi team before the pirates do...because the extra cap warfare will remove the logi's ability to tank each other faster, because both sides have such large engagement ranges it's then a simple matter to swap fire on to another ship or MJD again to be close to someone else's.
this is what cade and i refer to, both hulls doing the same thing but the unique circumstance of the marauders make it better suited over the raw damage gain of a pirate battleship, remote repair is designed to withstand raw damage so the extra 200 dps average a pirate battle ship has..will not help me until the logis are dead.
are a whole host of other variables that will affect the general performance of this little play but i want to try and keep this as short and simple as i can for you.
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:46:00 -
[3423] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome. TP bonus on BS makes more sense especially on a slow moving /stationary BS like maraufer. On the other hand the could make the bastion module give a web range bonus like 300 percent but decrease the effectiveness by 50%(less OP) so you can actually get to use the web more than once a day.
long range ships weak to tracking close range targets web bonus means if a target gets close it can no longer move, and thus the long range guns can track again, the stasis web bonus is to to cover the weakness of having smaller faster ships orbiting your large ass hull (cuz ccp are being ridiculously stupid with how many ways they want you to be able to kill these ships) and preventing the opposition from using those said smaller ships to warp in on top of you, negating your long range advantage.
blatantly obvious -.- |

Shoppi Fox
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 06:51:00 -
[3424] - Quote
Near 40 pages since last dev post can we get a new update please
Espacially on the shield ship web bonus the crux of long and short bonuses?
Would like to hop into the discussion again. Though my old post deleted my point stands that the bastion module is a cool idea but it should keep it role of a pve kill & loot boat. Web an long range bonuses wih 40km tractor make no sense to me. Except that it is versatile My proposal would we longer tractors and short range buffs on bastion like tracking web range and a bit of like 4% per lvl damage boost |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
148
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 07:12:00 -
[3425] - Quote
Aglais wrote:
a) "HURr DuRR 10 KILOMETER WEBS ON A 145 KM CRUISE MISSILE SHIP, OR A ~35 KM TORP SHIP"
I f***ing lol'd XD
Also, for rep bonus on a pve ship, it's more useful than you think. Having it as a bonus frees up slots you would normally use to bonus that rep. Ie: Aux nano pumps, nanobot accelerators, shield boost amps, etc.. It's pretty damn nice to have.
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 07:28:00 -
[3426] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:Aglais wrote:
a) "HURr DuRR 10 KILOMETER WEBS ON A 145 KM CRUISE MISSILE SHIP, OR A ~35 KM TORP SHIP"
I f***ing lol'd XD Also, for rep bonus on a pve ship, it's more useful than you think. Having it as a bonus frees up slots you would normally use to bonus that rep. Ie: Aux nano pumps, nanobot accelerators, shield boost amps, etc.. It's pretty damn nice to have.
Behave Sir. This is nowhere near as useful as a 15km web bonus on a +100 km pulse Paladin (not to mention a tachyon one!). Keep up the good work CCP! |

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 08:20:00 -
[3427] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote: as for the logistics chains i'll make this very simple:
two fleets encounter each other, both have logis
one fleet has marauders, marauders have 100km gun range and 3 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
one fleet has pirate battleships, which have 100km gun range and 1-2 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
Thats the point where I wanted you to get... on theory it's all cool and maybe @ alliance tournament.
but lets look at real eve pvp situations now, you see super expensive pirate and marauder BS ships fighting alot ? I dont.
we all can blablabla about specialization, generalization what the **** ever we want but when you look at PVP aspect of game - no one uses expensive pirate or marauder bs-es.
it's just pointless |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
414
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 08:45:00 -
[3428] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Wedgetail wrote: as for the logistics chains i'll make this very simple:
two fleets encounter each other, both have logis
one fleet has marauders, marauders have 100km gun range and 3 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
one fleet has pirate battleships, which have 100km gun range and 1-2 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
Thats the point where I wanted you to get... on theory it's all cool and maybe @ alliance tournament. but lets look at real eve pvp situations now, you see super expensive pirate and marauder BS ships fighting alot ? I dont. we all can blablabla about specialization, generalization what the **** ever we want but when you look at PVP aspect of game - no one uses expensive pirate or marauder bs-es. it's just pointless
On this subject last time i see them in combat me and few other logis wore trying to keep them alive(2 of them),they did respond well to reps til some point but incoming dps just brake their weak hit points.they went down fast after that hell i even think they wore primary even before bhaalgorn was and i am fairly certain bhaal survived longer.
if ppl continue to demand local booster back(that was utterly useless in situation above) their usage in PVP will not even be in consideration they will melt due to semi resist they have now and lack of hit points they have now soon to be nerfed even more.
Local tank is good 4 l4's but it will not make ship better at it as pirate ships are clearly better at it atm and t2 resist would open the door to incursion and wh content to be done properly. as well as making them at least somewhat usable in fleet environment
.......would i trade local boost for all of the above i would..anything to move this ship from 2nd class mission runner is achievement imo..
But as i said bastion projection buff is not enough of a gain for ship to suffer mass / speed / agility / drones / hit points loss it just isn't.
Edit
Not to mention immobility it self i fully plan not to use bastion module on my marauders just if CCP don't butcher them as they stand atm. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:09:00 -
[3429] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.
A. Plenty of "good blaster boats" don't have it. The only ones that do are the Vindicator (arguably the strongest single Battleship in the game right now) and the Kronos (seen repeatedly called a 'nerfed Vindicator' when brought up in conversation due to a 12.5% drop in DPS and lower sensor strength despite better resists). I'm somewhat ignoring the smaller Serpentis hulls because small ship combat is significantly different from battleship combat where webs are concerned.
B. No, but it helps. For reasons that have very clearly been outlined over the last several pages.
Wedgetail wrote:which is why i suggested keeping the current marauder bonuses as they are, and tailoring the bastion module to facilitating a different mode of combat to what the marauder's are already capable of doing, rather than just trying to take what the marauders already do and feed them steroids to the point where they become untouchable but with 1400mm howitzers.
as for the logistics chains i'll make this very simple:
two fleets encounter each other, both have logis
one fleet has marauders, marauders have 100km gun range and 3 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
one fleet has pirate battleships, which have 100km gun range and 1-2 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
both have MJD
both teams logi will seek to scatter away from the battleships to increase their survival odds, and to make the enemy try to chase them down to waste time (this is normal, ECM ships also do this same thing)
the area a logistics ship can spread out in is ~70km wide ~30 km from the near side of the fleet relative to the logi cruiser
with a MJD both teams can spend one battleship per logi to jump toward and hopefully land on top of wherever they starburst to
once landed, as you do not lose a target lock when you use the MJD the logi cruisers are buried in energy warfare and raw damage.
..the marauders will kill off the logi team before the pirates do...because the extra cap warfare will remove the logi's ability to tank each other faster, because both sides have such large engagement ranges it's then a simple matter to swap fire on to another ship or MJD again to be close to someone else's.
this is what cade and i refer to, both hulls doing the same thing but the unique circumstance of the marauders make it better suited over the raw damage gain of a pirate battleship, remote repair is designed to withstand raw damage so the extra 200 dps average a pirate battle ship has..will not help me until the logis are dead.
are a whole host of other variables that will affect the general performance of this little play but i want to try and keep this as short and simple as i can for you.
This is, overall, a hilariously impractical scenario.
For a start Logi tend to anchor on one-another to mitigate the effects of sensor damps no star-burst in every direction.
Second, they rarely stray more than 50km from the fight, because overall range on repair modules is only a little over 70km and a 50km orbit means they have very little risk of not being in rep range of someone who drifts from the fight. Even sitting at 60km can be a bit of a risk in this regard and 50km puts them out of range of most short-range high damage guns.
This means that if your MJD ships want to drop on top of opposing logi they're going to have to burn ~50km away from the fight first, or at least 30km if they want to be within neut range when they land (nevermind webs and points). They could just as easily burn 30km toward the logi to accomplish this and it's unlikely the enemy is going to let them burn 30km away without following, meaning the logi are going to move.
Basically the whole thing just falls apart when you actually look at the ranges on large Neuts and on Logi repair modules.
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Thats the point where I wanted you to get... on theory it's all cool and maybe @ alliance tournament.
but lets look at real eve pvp situations now, you see super expensive pirate and marauder BS ships fighting alot ? I dont.
we all can blablabla about specialization, generalization what the **** ever we want but when you look at PVP aspect of game - no one uses expensive pirate or marauder bs-es.
it's just pointless
Actually you see expensive ships and fits in low-sec PvP all the time. People have lots of isk and they want to use it to win. If you're not seeing a ship used it's because there's something better, not because it costs too much. |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:13:00 -
[3430] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Actually you see expensive ships and fits in low-sec PvP all the time. People have lots of isk and they want to use it to win. If you're not seeing a ship used it's because there's something better, not because it costs too much.
Also in WHs due to mass limitations, you need to make every ship count for as much as possible. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:19:00 -
[3431] - Quote
Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Actually you see expensive ships and fits in low-sec PvP all the time. People have lots of isk and they want to use it to win. If you're not seeing a ship used it's because there's something better, not because it costs too much.
Also in WHs due to mass limitations, you need to make every ship count for as much as possible.
Believe me, I'm well aware of that, lol. It's the argument that got me to finally agree to train T3s despite the SP loss potential (I hate losing SP for any reason).
Though I think you'd have to make Marauders pretty OP for the mass for them to compete with T3s there =P |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:28:00 -
[3432] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Believe me, I'm well aware of that, lol. It's the argument that got me to finally agree to train T3s despite the SP loss potential (I hate losing SP for any reason).
Though I think you'd have to make Marauders pretty OP for the mass for them to compete with T3s there =P
Yeah but they are getting around to T3s so once it finally rolls around they might be something comparable, they don't need to be amazing at PvP but at least somewhere around competent to good so long as they are amazing at sites.
What I would actually like to see is several bastion modules that are situationally optimal making them 'effective' T3 Battleships but I don't really see that happening. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:32:00 -
[3433] - Quote
Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
Believe me, I'm well aware of that, lol. It's the argument that got me to finally agree to train T3s despite the SP loss potential (I hate losing SP for any reason).
Though I think you'd have to make Marauders pretty OP for the mass for them to compete with T3s there =P
Yeah but they are getting around to T3s so once it finally rolls around they might be something comparable, they don't need to be amazing at PvP but at least somewhere around competent to good so long as they are amazing at sites. What I would actually like to see is several bastion modules that are situationally optimal making them effective T3 Battleships but I don't really see that happening.
Yeah, no.
T3 Cruisers are enough of a balance pain in the arse =P
The T3 balancing is certainly going to be interesting since there are three Wormhole CSMs plus the Null Sec guys have a pretty vested interest in them as well. It'll be interesting to see what they nerf and how much. Depending on the extent of the nerfs I wouldn't be too surprised to see the SP loss on destruction go away given that the base cost for a hull plus subsystems has gone down significantly.
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages... |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:42:00 -
[3434] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...
And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said
=/ |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
187
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:07:00 -
[3435] - Quote
Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...
And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said =/
I'm actually working on my own version of a proposal for fun.
When it's suitably thought out I'll post it for the wolves to chew apart.
Overall this is a rather prickly issue since you have people on the one side who want the Marauders for pure PvP and don't give a flying crap about their PvE usability.
On the other you have the people who have actually trained to use these ships already and use them extensively in PvE and probably don't care very much about their PvP viability.
There's a third and somewhat smaller group who really care equally about both but I would say from the posting trends that more or less everyone is leaning one way or the other, generally to a large degree.
The PvP people were the ones who jumped all over the first proposal for not being friendly enough to their interests. They really want to keep the web bonus because it essentially makes these hulls immune to frigates and very good against cruisers.
On the flip side the PvE people hate the second proposed version and don't want the web bonus, especially on the Vargur and Golem.
Throughout the mix we have people who want a number of ridiculous things like cloak-bonused Marauders and massive damage bonuses on Bastion. Not to mention the various people who think Bastion is an awesome idea, a horrible idea, or belongs on an entirely new ship class...
Personally I think Bastion is a pretty cool idea but I don't think it should be mandatory. I'm against web velocity bonuses in general because after running the numbers I find them to be hilariously over-powered against small targets even compared to regular webs, and I'd like to find a solution that at least makes the PvE and PvP sides marginally less angry, if not actually happy (this is Eve Features and Ideas Discussion after all, happy is something you hope for not something you expect) though I don't think Bastion is going to be something both of them get equal use out of no matter what. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:11:00 -
[3436] - Quote
Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...
And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said =/ Indeed , ill shout.
CAN WE GET A BLUE TAG HERE PLEASE!!!!!! If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
123
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:20:00 -
[3437] - Quote
The Bastion Modul is awesome, but no Ship should be forced to use a specific Modul to be usefull... (maybe Stealth Bombers are the only exception...) but anyway, Marauder should use Bastion as possibility not as a must have. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
377
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:26:00 -
[3438] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:The Bastion Modul is awesome, but no Ship should be forced to use a specific Modul to be usefull... (maybe Stealth Bombers are the only exception...) but anyway, Marauder should use Bastion as possibility not as a must have.
Stealth bombers can fling torps at battleships at 80km range, tell me that's not usefull...
Ok, without their cloaks they need support, but so do other ships. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:27:00 -
[3439] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I'm actually working on my own version of a proposal for fun.
When it's suitably thought out I'll post it for the wolves to chew apart.
Overall this is a rather prickly issue since you have people on the one side who want the Marauders for pure PvP and don't give a flying crap about their PvE usability.
On the other you have the people who have actually trained to use these ships already and use them extensively in PvE and probably don't care very much about their PvP viability.
There's a third and somewhat smaller group who really care equally about both but I would say from the posting trends that more or less everyone is leaning one way or the other, generally to a large degree.
The PvP people were the ones who jumped all over the first proposal for not being friendly enough to their interests. They really want to keep the web bonus because it essentially makes these hulls immune to frigates and very good against cruisers.
On the flip side the PvE people hate the second proposed version and don't want the web bonus, especially on the Vargur and Golem.
Fair enough assessment, and as a Minmatar pilot I grief the loss of the hull's tanking bonus for webs on the Vargur. Anyways nice going back n forth a little with you, I'm done throwing my 2c around for now o/ |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:34:00 -
[3440] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...
And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said =/ Indeed , ill shout. CAN WE GET A BLUE TAG HERE PLEASE!!!!!! Dude, relax. Blue tag told us that they need to take their time. |
|

To mare
Advanced Technology
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:34:00 -
[3441] - Quote
so what? 72 pages w/o updated by CCP |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:36:00 -
[3442] - Quote
To mare wrote:so what? 72 pages w/o updated by CCP
#2721 Posted: 2013.09.05 23:05 on page 137, not 72 pages, but still a good while. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
123
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:39:00 -
[3443] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:The Bastion Modul is awesome, but no Ship should be forced to use a specific Modul to be usefull... (maybe Stealth Bombers are the only exception...) but anyway, Marauder should use Bastion as possibility not as a must have. Stealth bombers can fling torps at battleships at 80km range, tell me that's not usefull... Ok, without their cloaks they need support, but so do other ships.
I think your right, but i cant proof it because i lack of experience with SB's.
Anyway, my Point is CCP made a mistake creating Ship Bonus for Moduls, in my opinion Moduls should change if fitted in the right Ship, it could free some Moduls from their Super specific usage, Open more possibilitys in niche Situations.
Sure it would create some horrific rebalancing but it would change Eve in a good Way. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:40:00 -
[3444] - Quote
To mare wrote:so what? 72 pages w/o updated by CCP Meaning the more we spam, the faster CCP works, eh?  |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:41:00 -
[3445] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...
And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said =/ Indeed , ill shout. CAN WE GET A BLUE TAG HERE PLEASE!!!!!! Dude, relax. Blue tag told us that they need to take their time. true enough. I'm happy to wait till November for the next iteration, but the discussion would benefit from a dev update, even just to confirm the concept a little. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:46:00 -
[3446] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:To mare wrote:so what? 72 pages w/o updated by CCP Meaning the more we spam, the faster CCP works, eh?  You think ccp fozzie gets a shock every time someone rages in the comments...maby that's what the like button dose.
in all seriousness is rather they take their time,( which was actually the main reason I don'tlike this iteration, seems rushed) If in doubt...do...excessively. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:37:00 -
[3447] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:To mare wrote:so what? 72 pages w/o updated by CCP Meaning the more we spam, the faster CCP works, eh?  just saying its 72 pages ppl keep posting same ideas or same whines if CCP would at least give some guidelines like we want to achieve that but we absolutely dont want this people would start focus on something and maybe give better ideas.
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:42:00 -
[3448] - Quote
Yeah, I rather hope they start up a new thread so they can put this fiasco behind them. I don't want another update or fix for this idea, I'd much rather it was thrown out the window and redone from scratch. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
189
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:45:00 -
[3449] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:The Bastion Modul is awesome, but no Ship should be forced to use a specific Modul to be usefull... (maybe Stealth Bombers are the only exception...) but anyway, Marauder should use Bastion as possibility not as a must have.
Even Stealth Bombers don't 100% rely on the cloak. If you want a ship that's 100% built around a module look at Dreadnaughts (and then look at the current problems with Capital Ship utility and balance and weep softly for the people who have to fix it)
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Meaning the more we spam, the faster CCP works, eh? 
More like the more time they have to spend reading the forums looking at feedback 
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:You think ccp fozzie gets a shock every time someone rages in the comments...maby that's what the like button dose.
in all seriousness is rather they take their time,( which was actually the main reason I don'tlike this iteration, seems rushed)
In before Fozzie, Rise, or Ytterbium post an NSA "we're watching youuuu" GIF and then disappear for another week. (obviously to meditate in a Buddhist Monastery toward perfect game balance)
Seriously though, a little appreciation for the devs. They're working on it. Good game design takes time, bad game design takes no time at all. When we don't hear from them for a while we should take it as a sign that things more productive than reading through 50+ pages of our bickering are happening.
Admittedly making lunch is probably a more productive use of time after about the 5th page but you can't balance the game on an empty stomach  |

To mare
Advanced Technology
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:46:00 -
[3450] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Yeah, I rather hope they start up a new thread so they can put this fiasco behind them. I don't want another update or fix for this idea, I'd much rather it was thrown out the window and redone from scratch. that would be a good idea |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:03:00 -
[3451] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:The Bastion Modul is awesome, but no Ship should be forced to use a specific Modul to be usefull... (maybe Stealth Bombers are the only exception...) but anyway, Marauder should use Bastion as possibility not as a must have. Stealth bombers can fling torps at battleships at 80km range, tell me that's not usefull... Ok, without their cloaks they need support, but so do other ships. I think your right, but i cant proof it because i lack of experience with SB's. Anyway, my Point is CCP made a mistake creating Ship Bonus for Moduls, in my opinion Moduls should change if fitted in the right Ship, it could free some Moduls from their Super specific usage, Open more possibilitys in niche Situations. Sure it would create some horrific rebalancing but it would change Eve in a good Way.
you mean liek Rof bonus for projectiles? Or god.. damage bonus for hybrids? OMG BONUS for modules!! REMOVE THEM REMOVE THEM!!! |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
377
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:10:00 -
[3452] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:you mean liek Rof bonus for projectiles? Or god.. damage bonus for hybrids? OMG BONUS for modules!! REMOVE THEM REMOVE THEM!!! Nah, what he meant was that no ship should be useless without that one single module that makes it special.
The Siege module for Dreads (as mentioned above by Cade Windstalker) would be a good example. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Agolon
Insight Limited
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:12:00 -
[3453] - Quote
Two things i would love to see added Allow use of covert op BS jump bridge. So a Covert op scout BS can call in his Marauder Buddies. Even if it has a hour cool down. I have never used a jump bridge but i think it would be great reason to pvp with it. Can it work ???
The other is a 200% dam when hitting target over BS size so carrier's and POS size objects. I don't see that effecting mission dps or BS on BS fights.
The though of a group of Marauder being jumped into a system by a stealth BS and able to cause all hell on field with MJD. I think with those 2 changes if will give it a powerful PVP reason to fly it with out making it OP or useless in PVE with the way they are now.
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:24:00 -
[3454] - Quote
Agolon wrote:Two things i would love to see added Allow use of covert op BS jump bridge. So a Covert op scout BS can call in his Marauder Buddies. Even if it has a hour cool down. I have never used a jump bridge but i think it would be great reason to pvp with it. Can it work ???
The other is a 200% dam when hitting target over BS size so carrier's and POS size objects. I don't see that effecting mission dps or BS on BS fights.
The though of a group of Marauder being jumped into a system by a stealth BS and able to cause all hell on field with MJD. I think with those 2 changes if will give it a powerful PVP reason to fly it with out making it OP or useless in PVE with the way they are now.
You do know that BLOPS BSs have jump drives that can jump to covert cynos right? |

Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:42:00 -
[3455] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Agolon wrote:Two things i would love to see added Allow use of covert op BS jump bridge. So a Covert op scout BS can call in his Marauder Buddies. Even if it has a hour cool down. I have never used a jump bridge but i think it would be great reason to pvp with it. Can it work ???
The other is a 200% dam when hitting target over BS size so carrier's and POS size objects. I don't see that effecting mission dps or BS on BS fights.
The though of a group of Marauder being jumped into a system by a stealth BS and able to cause all hell on field with MJD. I think with those 2 changes if will give it a powerful PVP reason to fly it with out making it OP or useless in PVE with the way they are now.
You do know that BLOPS BSs have jump drives that can jump to covert cynos right?
He wants to avoid running gates with his pimped Marauder in null-sec, obviously. And BlackOps don't have the punch and tank of Marauders. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:52:00 -
[3456] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.
It is true that you dont need a rep bonus for pve, really dont need the web bonus either, as most stuff is dead b4 getting into web range + you have drones. Not to mention, mobile is decreasing and engagement range is increasing, so it is going to be more difficult to close on something you want to web if it is just out of range. I only have a vargur so i could be ignorant about using a web on a kronos in pve, but it def isnt needed w/ autocannons. If web on the kronos is something you want then push for it, but in general i think this bonus should try to be different for each marauder.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:59:00 -
[3457] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:you mean liek Rof bonus for projectiles? Or god.. damage bonus for hybrids? OMG BONUS for modules!! REMOVE THEM REMOVE THEM!!! Nah, what he meant was that no ship should be useless without that one single module that makes it special. Dreadnaughts and their Siege module (as mentioned above by Cade Windstalker) would be a good example.
You mean like tempestas ataht are useles without guns? Or vagabonds without prop modules?
Or huggins without webs? Or Falcons without jammers?
Face it.. what you describe is exaclty how eve is for several years!!! |

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:05:00 -
[3458] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:[
Overall this is a rather prickly issue since you have people on the one side who want the Marauders for pure PvP and don't give a flying crap about their PvE usability.
On the other you have the people who have actually trained to use these ships already and use them extensively in PvE and probably don't care very much about their PvP viability.
There's a third and somewhat smaller group who really care equally about both but I would say from the posting trends that more or less everyone is leaning one way or the other, generally to a large degree.
You forgot the fourth and pretty big group who care about PvE and/or PvE but have no clue at all how things really works. 
These days I'm opening the F&ID forum and wonder why marauder haven't turned yet in something like a smartbomb hull that gets gas mining bonus in bastion... 
(INB4 new rokh hull gas mining marauder proposal) 
On the note, this is not a personal attack on anyone and also I'm quite found of your efforts in this post, keep on.  |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
378
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:10:00 -
[3459] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:You mean like tempestas ataht are useles without guns? Or vagabonds without prop modules?
Or huggins without webs? Or Falcons without jammers?
Face it.. what you describe is exaclty how eve is for several years!!! Which gun module are you talking about? And without which EWAR module and which propulsion module exactly will those ships be useless. And which of those modules can only be used by that very ship? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:19:00 -
[3460] - Quote
Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.
What if the bastion module only kept these traits: standard movement restrictions increased range EWAR immunity cant be remote assisted
removed: the additional tanking attributes
But add: Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform. No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V) optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)
|
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
378
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:26:00 -
[3461] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.
What if the bastion module only kept these traits: standard movement restrictions increased range EWAR immunity cant be remote assisted
removed: the additional tanking attributes
But add: Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform. No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V) optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)
+1 because your post lacks the usual rage-whine, it least sounds more interesting than some of those other suggestions, and thinking about your suggestion is not a sure trip to lala-land. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:33:00 -
[3462] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Which gun module are you talking about? And without which EWAR module and which propulsion module exactly will those ships be useless. And which of those modules can only be used by that very ship? On the other hand, this "must" module that can only be fitted on "this very ship" can be just a workaround that is needed because EVE code doesn't support "special active function" of the hull. Like, you can't have dread hull that can go into siege mode, so you need to implement a module to provide a button for siege mode on the UI... Same with these proposals. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
56
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:44:00 -
[3463] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.
What if the bastion module only kept these traits: standard movement restrictions increased range EWAR immunity cant be remote assisted
removed: the additional tanking attributes
But add: Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform. No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V) optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)
+1 because your post lacks the usual rage-whine, it least sounds more interesting than some of those other suggestions, and thinking about your suggestion is not a sure trip to lala-land. Someone proposed something similar a while back,with bonus heat resistance to overloading so as to maintain skill as a requirement for performance, its certainly one of the more interesting ideas.
certainly worth having a look into( not that I'm capable of running numbers ) If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:06:00 -
[3464] - Quote
I think the biggest issue, as some have point out, is the balancing between a PVE and PVP perspective. Traditionally speaking, the marauder has been a ship class strictly for PVE since its inception into the game. This has created an iconic "carebear" ship that was able to PvP in the past, but really suffered due to the initial limitations placed by the CCP devs.
Now we've reached an age in EvE where the ships are changing, some drastically and some just a pinch here and there. As we enter the marauder rebalance, I believe it's very important for both the players and for the developers to realize that the pre-existing iterations of marauders can already easily run lvl 4 missions. Rebalancing them specifically so that they're even better at PVE is foolish and lacks forward thinking. Any BS can run lvl 4 missions in highsec easily enough so there is no need to relegate a single class to just PVE. If these ships are balanced correctly, they will still excel at PVE just because they excel at PVP.
Now, as we focus on the ship balancing itself I would like to say this. As I've watched the ship balancing come and pass for the T1 hulls, I've really felt that the game has lost of its racial flare and has been more focused on homogenization through equal slot allowances, slot layouts, etc. These marauders represent the pinnacle of their respective races sub capital class ship, and as such should truly show racial differences. Giving every marauder the same web bonus across the four races is boring and takes away their differences and specialties. As for the bastion module, the idea is exciting but the presentation needs work. Due to this, these ships prove challenging to balance but here goes my two cents.
I would like to provide a concept instead of hard numbers, which hopefully will be discussed and built upon: Bastion Module: 1) 60 second cycle timer 2) Anchor ship when activated. 3) Provides Ewar immunity while activated. 4) Provides mass increase so you can't be bumped. To counter the WH closing problem: you cannot jump while the module is activated....or dock or jump gates for that matter 5) Provides 100% bonus to armor repairer/shield repairer effectiveness and cap reduction and/or cycle time reduction to armor/shield repairers. (Caution for ASB fits....may be OP) 6) Is scripted to provide specific bonuses to short range or long range play styles. This module is only limited to 1 hull that cost over a billion, its okay to introduce a useful one considering the trade off of being stuck in place for a minute
Marauders: Like I mentioned earlier, these should be the racial embodiment of their weapon system. They should illustrate the strength of pulse/beam lasers, blaster/railgun hybrids, cruise/torp missiles, auto/artillery projectiles through hull specific bonuses. Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.
The marauders need survivability inside and outside of bastion mode. This means providing hull bonuses that boost actual armor or shield HP. This provides usefulness for use outside of bastion mode, i.e receiving RR, and provides bonuses to bastion mode, i.e. having enough buffer to get rep cycles off.
The marauders also need racial specific support bonuses like webs, but not a blanket bonus to each hull. These ships aren't similar by any means in the damage application or ranges of engagement, so their support bonus shouldn't be similar as well. Paladin: bonus to TC (mid range weapon system) Golem: bonus to TP (missile application) Kronos: bonus to web strength (short range weapon system) Vargur: bonus to TC ( mid range weapon system)
(I'm not exactly sure what kind if support form of Ewar to use without having overlap) Edited****
Keep the MJD role bonus. Coordinated with a scripted bastion module, these ships can benefit from pulling range or closing distances to accommodate different play styles and fleet doctrines. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
124
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:14:00 -
[3465] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:The Bastion Modul is awesome, but no Ship should be forced to use a specific Modul to be usefull... (maybe Stealth Bombers are the only exception...) but anyway, Marauder should use Bastion as possibility not as a must have. Stealth bombers can fling torps at battleships at 80km range, tell me that's not usefull... Ok, without their cloaks they need support, but so do other ships. I think your right, but i cant proof it because i lack of experience with SB's. Anyway, my Point is CCP made a mistake creating Ship Bonus for Moduls, in my opinion Moduls should change if fitted in the right Ship, it could free some Moduls from their Super specific usage, Open more possibilitys in niche Situations. Sure it would create some horrific rebalancing but it would change Eve in a good Way. you mean liek Rof bonus for projectiles? Or god.. damage bonus for hybrids? OMG BONUS for modules!! REMOVE THEM REMOVE THEM!!!
|

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
480
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:24:00 -
[3466] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Which gun module are you talking about? And without which EWAR module and which propulsion module exactly will those ships be useless. And which of those modules can only be used by that very ship? On the other hand, this "must" module that can only be fitted on "this very ship" can be just a workaround that is needed because EVE code doesn't support "special active function" of the hull. Like, you can't have dread hull that can go into siege mode, so you need to implement a module to provide a button for siege mode on the UI... Same with these proposals. heh they are the developers , they surely would be able to do implement these things, their current balancing seems 0 added new code just copy existing ones from one ship to another and change some numbers, feels like what some modders would do |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:34:00 -
[3467] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.
What if the bastion module only kept these traits: standard movement restrictions increased range EWAR immunity cant be remote assisted
removed: the additional tanking attributes
But add: Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform. No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V) optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)
Then it woudl be USELES and no one would use it!
THe opposite shoudl be made.> More STRONG bonuses in the bastion mode. Not less. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:37:00 -
[3468] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Wedgetail wrote: as for the logistics chains i'll make this very simple:
two fleets encounter each other, both have logis
one fleet has marauders, marauders have 100km gun range and 3 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
one fleet has pirate battleships, which have 100km gun range and 1-2 capacitor warfare modules (per ship)
Thats the point where I wanted you to get... on theory it's all cool and maybe @ alliance tournament. but lets look at real eve pvp situations now, you see super expensive pirate and marauder BS ships fighting alot ? I dont. we all can blablabla about specialization, generalization what the **** ever we want but when you look at PVP aspect of game - no one uses expensive pirate or marauder bs-es. it's just pointless On this subject last time i see them in combat me and few other logis wore trying to keep them alive(2 of them),they did respond well to reps til some point but incoming dps just brake their weak hit points.they went down fast after that hell i even think they wore primary even before bhaalgorn was and i am fairly certain bhaal survived longer. if ppl continue to demand local booster back(that was utterly useless in situation above) their usage in PVP will not even be in consideration they will melt due to semi resist they have now and lack of hit points they have now soon to be nerfed even more. Local tank is good 4 l4's but it will not make ship better at it as pirate ships are clearly better at it atm and t2 resist would open the door to incursion and wh content to be done properly. as well as making them at least somewhat usable in fleet environment .......would i trade local boost for all of the above i would..anything to move this ship from 2nd class mission runner is achievement imo.. But as i said bastion projection buff is not enough of a gain(or i believe it isn't to be more fair) for ship to suffer mass / speed / agility / drones / hit points loss it just isn't. Edit Not to mention immobility it self i fully plan not to use bastion module on my marauders just if CCP don't butcher them as they stand atm.
last time i saw pirate hulls deployed was via pandemic legion titan drops during their blockades of solar freighter lines, and they did this because battleships are too slow to respond to new intel to work in any other circumstance (see the prevalence of blops fleets for example, high reaction speed, high survivability for the cost a trait they don't share with marauders and pirate battle ships)
if you want to succeed in combat you must be fast - this requires a jump bridge or a rapid mobility that battleships simply don't have. if i have to jump chains and chains of gates to catch a target they'll be gone long before I arrive, cruisers (t3's notably) can maintain better defenses, do 1/2 to 2/3rds as much damage and fly 2x as fast thus make a better choice for roaming gangs.
truthfully the last place i saw decent gang warfare on the battle ship tonnage was in faction war settings of 50 pilot PUG fleets - fighting limited to a very enclosed region of space. |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:42:00 -
[3469] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Just another thought, and admittedly spitballing.
What if the bastion module only kept these traits: standard movement restrictions increased range EWAR immunity cant be remote assisted
removed: the additional tanking attributes
But add: Transforms into a heat + energy efficient, but immobile platform. No penalty for overloading modules while in bastion mode. (or maybe no penalty @ thermal dynamics V) optional: Cap use for all modules decreases by x%. (10% ish?)
I like where your idea is heading. My particular idea is kinda a different iteration of your own idea [maybe a little bit] What I am trying to come up with is a way to make Marauders more 'fleet friendly' for small and larger scale PVP or PVE when used with the Bastion Module. [I am aware that half of you wont like it, 1/4 of you will hate it, and everyone else wont even read it.] The idea is to take the existing negatives of a battleship in PVP and create a positive to counteract the existing negative [aka the Bastion module] and to encourage 'marauder like tactics' to avoid being countered during the 'cool down cycle.'
The cool down cycle is specifically to give opponents the opportunity to counterattack or, if the battle is over, encourage the Marauder to loot and/or salvage any wreckage. (Cool down cycle = normal marauder capabilities except warp drive is disabled and bastion module is disabled.)
And for those who want a damage boost can get it, but at the cost of eventually burning out their guns.
BASTION MODULE
25% increase to large turret falloff and optimal range 25% increases to large missile velocity 50% reduction to E-War (Can receive remote assisting bonuses) 50% reduction to Micro Jump Drive distance (Long range = use before entering Bastion mode/short range = use after entering Bastion mode) Additional 10% bonus to the reduction of overheating damage (per thermodynamics skill level) Warp drive is disabled
Can use one of two types of fuel: 'Water' 60 second cycle time with 45 second cool down timer 'Coolant' 120 second cycle time with 90 second cool down timer
Bonuses for the racial battleship skills would have to determined individually. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
382
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:57:00 -
[3470] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:50% reduction to E-War (Can receive remote assisting bonuses) The EWAR Immunity is the only thing that makes the bastion module attractive. I do not believe that taking that away would be a good move. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:58:00 -
[3471] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome. a) "HURr DuRR 10 KILOMETER WEBS ON A 145 KM CRUISE MISSILE SHIP, OR A ~35 KM TORP SHIP" b) You're right- you don't really need a rep bonus for PvE activities. But you might for small scale PvP. CCP wants to bring Marauders into PvP. But these changes will do nothing but IMO permanently bar them from it. :\ And if you hadn't been so desperate to reply with a douchebag comment you would have actually absorbed my point about the Kronos and Paladin currently having a 75% more effective bonus than that proposed... 
Also T2 resist bonus > repair bonus from most small scale PvP
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:09:00 -
[3472] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:
a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat
b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome. A. Plenty of "good blaster boats" don't have it. The only ones that do are the Vindicator (arguably the strongest single Battleship in the game right now) and the Kronos (seen repeatedly called a 'nerfed Vindicator' when brought up in conversation due to a 12.5% drop in DPS and lower sensor strength despite better resists). I'm somewhat ignoring the smaller Serpentis hulls because small ship combat is significantly different from battleship combat where webs are concerned. B. No, but it helps. For reasons that have very clearly been outlined over the last several pages I've explained at length the crippling impact of the 2008 web changes on blaster battleships (and implications of losing the bonus completely) from the perspective of someone with a great deal of experience with them, i'm not going to repeat myself. I do have to ask what your experience with blaster battleships is though?
I'm amazed CCP have gone for the resist bonus - for high end stuff it so outweighs a self repair bonus (and loss of) it isnt even funny.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:15:00 -
[3473] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:
[quote=Yun Kuai] Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.
Not so sure on this statement, but I could be swayed. For a PvE example i think of differences between the mach and the vargur. The max dps number on the mach is currently higher than the vargur, but let's assume they are equal. The difference then between the two would be that the vargur gets EWAR immunity, tanking, and tracking bonuses while the mach gets better speed / agility. The problem I see with this is that the speed / agility of the mach is more flexible than the stationary bonuses given to the vargur. You can increase applied dmg by using the mach's speed bonus to close distance and / or decrease angular. You can also reduce incoming dmg by doing the opposite. With marauders receiving mobility decreases and being locked into bastion mode for a period of time, what you see is what you get and what you get is pretty limited flexibility. i think marauders need at least marginally better sustained dps to make up for their lack of flexibility and increased training requirements.
I can see the hesitency here, but you would have to figure in that the vargur has better tank, so mobility for negating DPS isn't an issue. If you also factor in a scripted bastion module that would support either short or long range engagements, the applied dps would be better since you're not having to fly around to reach shorter ranges; you just rely on your native ship hull bonuses and synergies bastion mode bonuses. Also, with the MJD bonus, you still have mobility....just not in the traditional MWD around everywhere sense. |

Doddy
Dark-Rising
882
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:17:00 -
[3474] - Quote
Will be epic, but why the bastion module not buff missile damage application? I get velocity maybe but it should have at least one of the other effects (for sig radius or velocity effect) or its pretty useless. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:22:00 -
[3475] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Siddicus wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:
I digress though, this has very little to do with Marauders, which is more or less the point of the last 170 pages...
And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said =/ I'm actually working on my own version of a proposal for fun. When it's suitably thought out I'll post it for the wolves to chew apart. Overall this is a rather prickly issue since you have people on the one side who want the Marauders for pure PvP and don't give a flying crap about their PvE usability. On the other you have the people who have actually trained to use these ships already and use them extensively in PvE and probably don't care very much about their PvP viability. There's a third and somewhat smaller group who really care equally about both but I would say from the posting trends that more or less everyone is leaning one way or the other, generally to a large degree. The PvP people were the ones who jumped all over the first proposal for not being friendly enough to their interests. They really want to keep the web bonus because it essentially makes these hulls immune to frigates and very good against cruisers. On the flip side the PvE people hate the second proposed version and don't want the web bonus, especially on the Vargur and Golem. Throughout the mix we have people who want a number of ridiculous things like cloak-bonused Marauders and massive damage bonuses on Bastion. Not to mention the various people who think Bastion is an awesome idea, a horrible idea, or belongs on an entirely new ship class... Personally I think Bastion is a pretty cool idea but I don't think it should be mandatory. I'm against web velocity bonuses in general because after running the numbers I find them to be hilariously over-powered against small targets even compared to regular webs, and I'd like to find a solution that at least makes the PvE and PvP sides marginally less angry, if not actually happy (this is Eve Features and Ideas Discussion after all, happy is something you hope for not something you expect) though I don't think Bastion is going to be something both of them get equal use out of no matter what.
Cade, I'm working on something too over here. I completely agree with you that the Marauder class must be fully useful without a bastion module fit. The problem is that since the module is in a highslot and doesn't require a turret/launcher hard point you have to at least look at what it can be traded out for module wise and compare the benefits of the replacement to the benefits and drawbacks of the bastion.
If there's no comparison and bastion is simply way better than anything else, everyone will fit bastion even if they don't use it. On the flip side, if the bastion module isn't strong enough and the hull changes remove any significant disadvantage (like the sensor strength) you won't find them fitted.
I think they should add an additional turret/launcher hard point to these hull, and adjust the bastion module to require one. Now you actually have a powerful replacement module to balance the bastion module against and provides some very hard decisions if the bonuses on the module are well thought out. Do you fit a 5 turret and lose damage projection/application/whatever else they put on the module, or do you fit the bastion module. Less raw damage but great tank, damage project, etc. That scenario would make this conversation completely different! |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
351
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:25:00 -
[3476] - Quote
if they were to be stationary, they would be called castles or fortifications or something..
i want to address: the name marauder in general... resists scanning salvage tractor beams tank alignment time speed in general new possible bonus to hp ammount rep rate
they should be fast strikers, not bricks. they should have t2 resists, mjd bonus, faster scan res for locking, low sensor str (fits the role-they arent designed for continual combat, just quick skirmishes).
they should align quickly and mjd. stop and pounce or get at range and snipe. they dont have to have tons of hp, just good hp and resists. as i put in my post, they could have a bonus like the damnation (5% to armor or shield per marauder lev showing their training to fight the ship). make it start lower than typical bs (because they are lighter and faster), but once the bonus is full (marauder 5), be above typical bs.
the bastion mode is kewl. it would fit in well with this idea since they are immobile once deployed. it would fit in well with the low sensor str too. once in bastion mode, they are unjammable, but out of bastion mode, they are easily taken out with even the simplist of jamming frigs.
they need their reps back since they will have low tanks. give them an rr bonus. it fits too. when in bastion mode, they cant be repped, and when out, they are easily jammed )and it cant be OP if its easily jammed). like 5% per lev to reps, rep range or something. maybe a 5% per lev reduction in cap use for rr modules.
its a pve ship: it still needs a scan bonus for probing. it also needs the tractor range enhanced a little more. a salvage difficulty bonus would be a kewl niche for these over a noctis. we arent putting salvage rigs on em so we have to deal with basic skills. marauders should get these skills increased. maybe 50% bonus. with a probe launcher, tractor and salvager, we can only fit 1. it takes alot of time to salvage with a non-bonused marauder. give us a reason to use it over a noctis.
pve would still have their pve ships, incursions would have a kewl ship, worm hole goers would be able to tend to each other and salvage without having to call in a noctis, and for those running lev 4's, you still have your anti-jam mode as well.
|

Striscio
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:31:00 -
[3477] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Will be epic, but why the bastion module not buff missile damage application? I get velocity maybe but it should have at least one of the other effects (for sig radius or velocity effect) or its pretty useless.
Well actually there is a problem between weapons systems since range on missiles doesn't influence damage application at all ( Miss or Hit). And there is a problem even inside turret group, not all of them get a significant boost from both Optimal/Falloff. So it looks like they choose a full +25% "range" concept per system, since there are no more than one type of missiles (stat boosting wise) they just receive a single bonus. There is not a real simple solution since a Optimal/Falloff+Tracking and Speed+Sig.Radius would just escalate the problem.
Well.. after all there is a simple solution, they probably said "let's leave missiles behind as we were used" |

Doddy
Dark-Rising
882
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:34:00 -
[3478] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker... i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer. In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field. I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are...
Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:52:00 -
[3479] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:either way the bastion mode its a dead sentence, having friends wont help because they cannot even heal or boost you. yes for 60 seconds... and how ehp does that kronos have? how much can it rep? ever heard of a target spectrum breaker... i am glad most of you pubbies think the mod is useless makes it even better for me TSB takes up a midslot of course. That's going to cost you a tracking computer. In any case, if you're in null or w-space, you'll be inside an interdiction field. I would advise you against using bastion mode in w-space or null. But if you do, please be so kind as to let me know where you are... Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well. Sounds awesome, can't wait If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:53:00 -
[3480] - Quote
Doddy wrote:
Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well.
yeah it is only a one minute timer, but you'll never need to redeploy with the range bonuses - you either jump out to range and deploy for the fight and wait to get alphad, or sit on the gate you just jumped in through, deploy and wait to get alphad (whether you MJD or not depends on where the enemy sits)
because this module only ever takes a long range ship and makes it..."more long range" i don't actually need to deploy in the first place to hit anything, i just MJD once if they're past 100km engagement range, or i sit where i am, add to that tracking speed and web bonuses and i don't need to worry about anything coming close to me either....cuz i can hit it regardless of what it does.
i like your idea of the rep kiting and yes that'd be excellent - but the marauders will never have to deal with this, as the only real (read reasonably effective and not suicidal) way to kill one will be to nuke it with other long range guns - it'll have no time to rep, it'll be alive...then a second later dead - and this circumstance holds true deployed or not =/ (because of their already absurd damage projection)
|
|

Quintessen
Orion's Belt Mining and Pharmaceuticals
182
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:55:00 -
[3481] - Quote
I'm not going to read 173 pages of posts to see if this was caught, but it's still wrong so.... it seems like the Amarr and Minmatar resistances are reversed. Should Minmatar be good against EXP and Amarr be good against EM/Therm as per their local pirate factions? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4595
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:56:00 -
[3482] - Quote
I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.
Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.
I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:56:00 -
[3483] - Quote
You can get alpha'd in anything ,ANYTHING. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:57:00 -
[3484] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:I'm not going to read 173 pages of posts to see if this was caught, but it's still wrong so.... it seems like the Amarr and Minmatar resistances are reversed. Should Minmatar be good against EXP and Amarr be good against EM/Therm as per their local pirate factions?
resistances are skewed based on who the faction fights:
minmatar oppose amarr and so focus on EM/THERM res
amarr oppose minmatar and so focus on EXPL./KIN res (not really logical given mixed ammo types but ccp logic) :D |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:59:00 -
[3485] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.
Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.
I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities. that could have some interesting implications. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:59:00 -
[3486] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:You can get alpha'd in anything ,ANYTHING.
yes you can, and the idea is to remove the fact that group pvp's being reduced to sit still and blap something before it can respond
if there's only one effective way to approach killing an opponent's doctrine, that'll be the only thing anyone uses. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:04:00 -
[3487] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.
this i like and yes it does, I'd still like to remove the 'isolationist island' effect the ship hull bonuses in tandem with bastion are going to give this ship's tactical options but your thinking's certainly on the right track. |

Ishta Drey'auc
Dry Atomic Fusion Gatekeepers Universe
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:08:00 -
[3488] - Quote
Most of this sounds good, however it assumes most people in the Golem use cruise missiles. I prefer to use an afterburner and get in close with torps and rep the damage. This special mode won't help much with those, and the speed penalty will certainly hurt.
Change the marauder bonus for the Golem because there isn't enough room to add a web in the mid slots. By removing the shield rep you take away the ships ability to fly solo in PVE. You are removing the ship from its purpose and nitch. Instead you should fix the HORRIBLE salvaging problem on these ships. Give them a 1000% bonus to salvaging so I don't have to wait 5 cycles for every piece of loot. I removed the salvager and used drones because it simply doesn't work.
Because you are dropping the time for TPs I can't really complain too much about the hits to the Golem (speed and drones). Waiting for those two TPs to cycle is the biggest isk killer on my ship. Thanks for the fix. I'd prefer to keep my two sets of drones but I'm sure you have your reasons for pvp.
I know the cargo is already larger than a normal BS, but could you please add a second and separate cargo bay for ammo?
And for the love of God, please don't make me spend 30 days on a new marauder skill after all that training I've already done to fly this thing. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:21:00 -
[3489] - Quote
Ishta Drey'auc wrote:Most of this sounds good, however it assumes most people in the Golem use cruise missiles. I prefer to use an afterburner and get in close with torps and rep the damage. This special mode won't help much with those, and the speed penalty will certainly hurt.
Change the marauder bonus for the Golem because there isn't enough room to add a web in the mid slots. By removing the shield rep you take away the ships ability to fly solo in PVE. You are removing the ship from its purpose and nitch. Instead you should fix the HORRIBLE salvaging problem on these ships. Give them a 1000% bonus to salvaging so I don't have to wait 5 cycles for every piece of loot. I removed the salvager and used drones because it simply doesn't work.
Because you are dropping the time for TPs I can't really complain too much about the hits to the Golem (speed and drones). Waiting for those two TPs to cycle is the biggest isk killer on my ship. Thanks for the fix. I'd prefer to keep my two sets of drones but I'm sure you have your reasons for pvp.
I know the cargo is already larger than a normal BS, but could you please add a second and separate cargo bay for ammo?
And for the love of God, please don't make me spend 30 days on a new marauder skill after all that training I've already done to fly this thing.
doesn't assume, intends to make long range doctrines the primary focus by increasing their effectiveness well beyond reasonable when compared to close range combat.
and all of the marauders will have space issues, the armor loaded hulls have few mids and'll lose two of them (meaning no one gets tracking computers/tp's to support the long range bonuses, OR they choose to not use web/MJD in favor of more reliable long range weapons)
in both pve and pvp though, damage projection > mobility - if i can hit you from where i stand i don't need to move anywhere - kites work because ships can't project damage well enough to consistently hit targets, marauders are very good at ignoring this little rule, being able to achieve huge range and tracking ability (why the ewar weakness is so important)
marauders aren't 'salvage' ships they're "kill, scoop loot and leg it" ships - not supposed to be a cleanup crew, only there to take the face value useful stuff and leave before someone meaner shows up (yes they can be made to work as a cleanup crew as you say but it's not their job, that's the noctis) |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4595
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:23:00 -
[3490] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.
this i like and yes it does, I'd still like to remove the 'isolationist island' effect the ship hull bonuses in tandem with bastion are going to give this ship's tactical options but your thinking's certainly on the right track.
Yep, instead of Marauders being single isolated ships it would promote a sort of fortification use for them involving groups of Marauders in Bastion Mode in tight groups supporting each other. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:28:00 -
[3491] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.
this i like and yes it does, I'd still like to remove the 'isolationist island' effect the ship hull bonuses in tandem with bastion are going to give this ship's tactical options but your thinking's certainly on the right track. Yep, instead of Marauders being single isolated ships it would promote a sort of fortification use for them involving groups of Marauders in Bastion Mode in tight groups supporting each other.
it would, but i'd like to see this work at reasonable engagement ranges, if the marauders are doing this 150+ km away from anyone else then there are problems, if the marauders are sitting at the current ("close range weapon") ranges of < 100 km it becomes much more interesting trying to beat them.
bastion with this and a close range focus would make for a very good remote repair battleship doctrine (though i'd suggest to forego the ewar 'immunity' for an ewar 'resistance' as some have suggested if i'm allowing RR into bastioned ships - has to be more than one way to skin the cat fish, and RR chains are broken through ECM, energy nuets or hull bouncing) |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Adocsalo Bt.
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:34:00 -
[3492] - Quote
As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.
WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun... With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None. Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again. The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
209
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:55:00 -
[3493] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.
WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun... With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None. Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again. The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again. The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else.
Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out. |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Adocsalo Bt.
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:58:00 -
[3494] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.
WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun... With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None. Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again. The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again. The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else. Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out.
AWU 5 is not essential right now. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
59
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 17:13:00 -
[3495] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.
WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun... With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None. Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again. The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again. The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else. Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out.
yeah, the noise the incursion lads made pales in comparison to the godallmighty shitstorm that followed the update. don't get me wrong, id actually rather happily fork out for one as it stands, I just feel it was a little short sighted and could have been considerd a little longer than the knee-jerk we saw.
I think you nailed it with " don't give in to haters so easily". ither way thers a LOT of good ideas in thes thread, ill be interested to see how they're reflected in the next issue. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1199
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 17:33:00 -
[3496] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
Good, this is much better now and opens a lot more use perspectives than sole Bastion mode since for pvp you don't loose anymore almost half of your ship abilities if you don't fit Bastion module. MJD was a nice addition, but web bonus is imho once again a much better utility bonus with a large spectrum of use in pvp/pve.
Needs some guns and sensor love thou (imho) and it starts looking like a much better ship 
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 17:58:00 -
[3497] - Quote
I think I just had the ultimate idea:
Give marauders totally new bonuses - such as:
- let them bleed through shields/armor (10% chance in total) - let them ignore resists (10% in total)
!
 |

Rita May
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 18:17:00 -
[3498] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Good, this is much better now and opens a lot more use perspectives than sole Bastion mode since for pvp you don't loose anymore almost half of your ship abilities if you don't fit Bastion module. MJD was a nice addition, but web bonus is imho once again a much better utility bonus with a large spectrum of use in pvp/pve. Needs some guns and sensor love thou (imho) and it starts looking like a much better ship  sure, after 174 pages i finally can see why a web bonus on a module with boni for MJD and sniping makes sense. for reference: On a 425mm Kronos the CURRENT web bonus doesn't help you with hitting orbiting (elite)frigs, even in combination with a tracking scripted TC. Not to mention that the targets to web should be kind enough to get into your web range in the first place...
cu |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4596
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 18:18:00 -
[3499] - Quote
Gimme more Cynos wrote:I think I just had the ultimate idea: Give marauders totally new bonuses - such as: - let them bleed through shields/armor (10% chance in total) - let them ignore resists (10% in total) !  Nifty. Armor piercing lasers. 
I don't really think that's the direction CCP wants them to go though.
Still, major points for thinking outside the box.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Adunh Slavy
1240
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 18:39:00 -
[3500] - Quote
Add a fuel bay, use heavy water for this extra mode. And why no logistic support? Seems kinda silly. Letting them receive logistic support would add more dynamic to the battle field, not less. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
|

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company WINMATAR.
219
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 18:53:00 -
[3501] - Quote
Here's some random thoughts of mine thrown into the pit.
How about....
- Ability to use a Bomblauncher when in Bastion Mode with intense bonuses to bomb velocity? Very tricky in use because of alignment at 0m/s :)
- A Bonus to Smartbomb Damage and/or Range?
- A Bonus to Energy Vampire Range?
- Making bonuses to MJD and Bastion Time a Marauder Skill Bonus - 17% reduction in MJD reactivation delay and 10% reduction in Bastion Module duration? This would twindle the MJD reactivation to ~27? seconds, and bastion to 30 seconds. Would allow for a HELL A LOT more mobility, potentially at the cost of reduced tank . For example, a reduced active tank bonus on the bastion module.
- Drop dat web bonus! Seriously, you're giving the ships RANGE just to give them the ability to stay in close for blapping? Tech 2 is meant to be specialized, and the specialisation in one absurdly mobile sniping platform is very nice, but gets totally blasted by a web bonus. Maybe roll it into the bastion-bonus if you want to keep it. But Range-Bonus would be by far better than a strength bonus, that's what Serpentis and (partially) Blood Raiders are for. And then again, just make them get Target-Painter optimal range. To effectively paint stuff from ~100km.
- Reduce SPOOL UP time of the MJD module for Marauders?
- AoE-Salvager for 'rauders?
- Full Rack of Medium guns designed to reach Battleshipish range and dps? (Like, Tier 3 BC, but vice versa!)
- Capbooster-Inject-Amount-Bonus? (Suits the 'behind enemy lines' thingy, doesn't it?)
And oh, yeah, so far, for me, these ships look to be king for PvE where they don't need any tank at all besides 1 rep-module, stuff in max gank and application, and roll every mission with ease because they're gonna be so damn gud at it. For PvP i can see how they are able to dominate Tier 3 Gangs if used in small squads and coordinated well. Especially the Vargur. I mean, come on, forget the rest. Vargur is going to be King of anything that has to do with low playercount but maximum performance. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 19:16:00 -
[3502] - Quote
Why not get rid of the dumb webber for BS and have TP bonus instead ? Webs on a stationary defensive ship? really ? also drone bay needs to be at least 50,
And for the golem , maybe have a bonus which affects tracking computers to affect missle explosion radius/ explosion velocity at 10% per level. So TC with tracking/range script will give 30 X 50% = 15 explosion radius or 15 explosion velocity at max level depending on script. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
59
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 19:17:00 -
[3503] - Quote
Ehhh, I like the cap injection bit... If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 19:36:00 -
[3504] - Quote
I'm really starting to like my idea of 5th turret/launcher hardpoint with bastion module requiring a turret/launcher hard point. Here's how I would set it up.
Role Bonus: 80% bonus to large weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
This would produce the equivalent of 9 active weapons if you fit a weapon in each slot, while having 7.2 active weapons with a bastion module fitted. This would allow you to balance the bonuses and drawbacks of the bastion module against 1.8 effective weapons instead of against what you can fit in a utility high slot. Now that you are replacing something of great value, the bonuses and drawbacks can be much more interesting.
As it stands now, the bastion module has to be balanced when compared to another utility module:
- Drone Range - worthless with the current drone bandwidth and bay)
- Nuet/Nos - great utility for PVP and some using Nos in PVE
- Remote Repair/Boost - without a range boost this is lackluster
- Energy Transfer - no range boost
- Smart Bomb - decent close range support considering the new drone stats
- Regular Cloaking Device - Useful in some situations
* Please add to this list if I overlooked something
The current bastion module has some extreme drawbacks because when compared to what it can replace it would always be used if it didn't. The bonuses it provides far out shines the items listed above, thus enter the immobility and no remote assistance. If you paired the module against something of real value such as number of active turrets, you can now provide real, useful bonuses without resorting to including drastic penalties that eliminates its use in most scenarios except level 4 mission running. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
354
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 19:46:00 -
[3505] - Quote
they need to be fast strikers until they hit the stop and shoot button. then, they will be anchored for 60 seconds. once free, they need to move.
stick and move, stick and move. resistance to take a blow. bonuses to pve stuff like scanning and salvaging.
that stuff can be negated while in bastion mode where a new set of bonuses come into play.
but for everyday life, we need an exploration/raider. not a cylon raider, but an explorer/raider.
Edit |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
192
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 20:16:00 -
[3506] - Quote
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:You do know that BLOPS BSs have jump drives that can jump to covert cynos right?
He wants to avoid running gates with his pimped Marauder in null-sec, obviously. And BlackOps don't have the punch and tank of Marauders.[/quote]
Black-Ops are also next on the rebalance queue per Ytterbium over here, along with Electronic Attack Frigates and then probably the various over and under-used pirate-hulls.
Kagura Nikon wrote:You mean like tempestas ataht are useles without guns? Or vagabonds without prop modules?
Or huggins without webs? Or Falcons without jammers?
Face it.. what you describe is exaclty how eve is for several years!!!
Different but similar. These ships receive heavy bonuses to a set of modules as opposed to simply being able to equip one module that makes the hull useful like a Dreadnaught with Siege Mode. Even Carriers don't compare since they can be extremely useful in a variety of roles without ever fitting a Triage module.
Also the Vagabond probably doesn't belong on your list since most Cruisers rely on a prop-mod of some sort, and the hull has no bonuses to prop-mods.
Kagura Nikon wrote:Then it woudl be USELES and no one would use it!
THe opposite shoudl be made.> More STRONG bonuses in the bastion mode. Not less.
And there are going to be trade-offs on the module for every one of those "Strong bonuses" or on the hull like we've seen with the loss of the repair bonus in the current iteration.
Wedgetail wrote:last time i saw pirate hulls deployed was via pandemic legion titan drops during their blockades of solar freighter lines, and they did this because battleships are too slow to respond to new intel to work in any other circumstance (see the prevalence of blops fleets for example, high reaction speed, high survivability for the cost a trait they don't share with marauders and pirate battle ships)
if you want to succeed in combat you must be fast - this requires a jump bridge or a rapid mobility that battleships simply don't have. if i have to jump chains and chains of gates to catch a target they'll be gone long before I arrive, cruisers (t3's notably) can maintain better defenses, do 1/2 to 2/3rds as much damage and fly 2x as fast thus make a better choice for roaming gangs.
truthfully the last place i saw decent gang warfare on the battle ship tonnage was in faction war settings of 50 pilot PUG fleets - fighting limited to a very enclosed region of space.
For a very specific type of warfare yes, but you still see Battleships used to a greater or lesser extent all over Low-Sec and even in Null.
Mobility is certainly useful but it's not the end of the line for ship balance. You can be immobile as long as you have other things that make up for it, like a thick tank and good damage projection and application.
Not every Battleship hull, T2 or otherwise, should be modeled after the Machariel.
Also you can bet money that if Marauders had been the best thing for the job that's what PL would have dropped. They're a perfect example of a group with enough resources to bring the best thing for a job if they really want that job done, no matter how much it costs. |

Jordanna Bauer
Mafia Redux Black Legion.
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 20:17:00 -
[3507] - Quote
Web bonus + fall off bonus seems extremely counter-intuitive. Seriously? |

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 20:21:00 -
[3508] - Quote
after giving this thread some serious shallow thoughts I propose the following under Bastion mode:
for every lvl of high energy physics 5% increase to mining yield of mining lasers 5% decrease in cpu for mining lasers 2500m range increase to access containers and other ships cargo/ore bay
for every lvl of energy grid upgrades 25% increased range of mining lasers 10% increase of ore cargo capacity
for evey lvl of graviton physics 5% increase in drone bay and bandwith for mining drones
 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
192
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 20:37:00 -
[3509] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I think they should add an additional turret/launcher hard point to these hull, and adjust the bastion module to require one. Now you actually have a powerful replacement module to balance the bastion module against and provides some very hard decisions if the bonuses on the module are well thought out. Do you fit a 5 turret and lose damage projection/application/whatever else they put on the module, or do you fit the bastion module. Less raw damage but great tank, damage project, etc. That scenario would make this conversation completely different!
It's an interesting concept but I think it would lead to Bastion being over-powered and put the hulls into a DPS race with the Pirate Battleships. You'd essentially be giving the ships 10 effective turrets of damage (even ignoring the 25% damage bonus from ship skills) and reducing their damage bonus to compensate would result in a 4 turret setup doing less DPS than any T1 Battleship which probably isn't worth the cost or application.
Gabriel Karade wrote:I've explained at length the crippling impact of the 2008 web changes on blaster battleships (and implications of losing the bonus completely) from the perspective of someone with a great deal of experience with them, i'm not going to repeat myself. I do have to ask what your experience with blaster battleships is though?
I'm amazed CCP have gone for the resist bonus - for high end stuff it so outweighs a self repair bonus (and loss of) it isnt even funny.
And I countered your points, to which you failed to respond (some 80+ pages back if I recall).
CCP have since buffed blaster ships and right now they're almost as fast as comparable Minmattar ships while having higher agility (again, see previous counter for numerical examples). Overall they are in a better relative state to other hulls than they were 5 years ago.
CCP's original logic with both the web nerf and the speed nerf that precipitated it was very sound. Overall you seem to be implying, quite against evidence, that Blaster Battleships are in a worse state than any other Battleship hull and have been for the last ~5 years.
If webs were limited to one per ship then the 90% webs might somehow be justified, but as things stand it's hardly required to catch and hold a comparably sized ship and mostly serves to utterly destroy any smaller ship that gets within your web-range.
As for a resist bonus, that would just lead to absurd levels of tank on the order of Command Ships and for self-repair the local rep bonus is actually superior.
Wedgetail wrote:i like your idea of the rep kiting and yes that'd be excellent - but the marauders will never have to deal with this, as the only real (read reasonably effective and not suicidal) way to kill one will be to nuke it with other long range guns - it'll have no time to rep, it'll be alive...then a second later dead - and this circumstance holds true deployed or not =/ (because of their already absurd damage projection)
Except again, with low overall EHP you can just break their tank with DPS, either from short or long-ranged guns, and they'll burn down very very quickly. For the first proposal ~3-4 blaster battleships would be required on most, for the current iteration it's only 2-3 in Bastion. Or you can just neut them out, if they're using an ASB tank then they've either chucked most other utility too fit that or they're running a single ASB and you just have to run them out of cap-boosters. Either way it's not infeasible for 3-4 battleships to blow through the shields on an ASB Vargur before it can do a rep cycle at which point armor and hull damage will kill it before it runs out of cap boosters.
Quintessen wrote:I'm not going to read 173 pages of posts to see if this was caught, but it's still wrong so.... it seems like the Amarr and Minmatar resistances are reversed. Shouldn't Minmatar be good against EXP and Amarr be good against EM/Therm as per their local pirate factions?
Yes, this has been brought up in various forms. They've been given the full T2 resistances for their empire, which counter their racial enemies. This would not be an issue if they still had the local repair bonuses. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 20:57:00 -
[3510] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I think they should add an additional turret/launcher hard point to these hull, and adjust the bastion module to require one. Now you actually have a powerful replacement module to balance the bastion module against and provides some very hard decisions if the bonuses on the module are well thought out. Do you fit a 5 turret and lose damage projection/application/whatever else they put on the module, or do you fit the bastion module. Less raw damage but great tank, damage project, etc. That scenario would make this conversation completely different! It's an interesting concept but I think it would lead to Bastion being over-powered and put the hulls into a DPS race with the Pirate Battleships. You'd essentially be giving the ships 10 effective turrets of damage (even ignoring the 25% damage bonus from ship skills) and reducing their damage bonus to compensate would result in a 4 turret setup doing less DPS than any T1 Battleship which probably isn't worth the cost or application.
I forgot to bold the part of the Role Bonus I changed. I dropped it to 80% weapon damage from the 100% it is now. That equates to 9 turrets/launchers with a 5 turret/launcher fitting and 7.2 with a 4 turret fitting. So for people who want to take the hull as it is and forget bastion you have a 12.5% damage increase over TQ. I think you're right though this comes a little too close to Pirate BS damage levels.
The main point was that you can now offer a bastion module that provides bonuses that can be comparable to 1.8 active turrets/launchers. Make it worth giving up the extra damage for some unique utility or special abilities. You could remove much of the current drawbacks to the bastion module. Here's a pseudo equation that illustrates the goal. The details would obviously have to be thought out well:
Hull Bonuses + 5 turrets/launchers (9 effective) ~= Hull Bonuses + 4 turrets/launchers (7.2 effective) + Bastion Bonuses/Abilities
Currently the dev value equation looks something like this:
Utility High Slot ~= Bastion Bonuses - Bastion Drawbacks
I think that form is much harder to balance out because the value of a Utility High Slot is so low considering the hull already has 3 of them. So really it's comparing Bastion bonuses and drawbacks to a 4TH utility high slot module. |
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4600
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 20:59:00 -
[3511] - Quote
As a side note, if another group of Marauders is ever done I would have to say the natural hulls for a "transform into a defensive Bastion" ship would be the former Tier 3 BS.
To me the blocky and heavily armored Abaddon, Hyperion, Rohk, and Maelstrom would visually be perfect for bits and pieces to expand out into a defensive fortification (especially the Abaddon and Rohk).
Also, I hope that part of the animation includes plates or panels dropping down over the "vulnerable" engines. That would help explain the ships immobility and toughness in Bastion Mode. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
192
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:05:00 -
[3512] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:As an amarr, almost started the training for the paladin as i had the option now in skillplans... saw the changes-->glad that "almost" prevented that.
WIth a Nightmare i use the same mjd-tachsnipe tactics (alt/corpmate salvages) as the first iteration suggested. With the transform fun... With a laser boat, i just skip the missions what has any other factions than sansha/raiders. Whats the point of the t2 resists then? None. Incursions: resist are fine. But wait! We have the nightmare ingame? Yes. Armor fleets got nearly extinct. No point again. The palladin hull costs 50% more than the nightmare. No point again.
Edit: Idea: 1) Make 2 "bastion modules" one for PVE and one for PVP (like t3 subsystems) 2) Make the hulls bonuses to give common bonuses 3) Make the 2 new modules to give separate bonuses
You would have a choice to make: brick - not moving - no RR - local tank OR not that hard - moving - no local tank - RR fits
Couple of problems with this, for a start the Paladin is no where near twice the price of a Nightmare and in fact prior to last week the Paladin was selling for cheaper than the Nightmare.
Also Armor Incursion fleets are alive and well, you're just not in the right channels if you think they're dead.
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Good, this is much better now and opens a lot more use perspectives than sole Bastion mode since for pvp you don't loose anymore almost half of your ship abilities if you don't fit Bastion module. MJD was a nice addition, but web bonus is imho once again a much better utility bonus with a large spectrum of use in pvp/pve. Needs some guns and sensor love thou (imho) and it starts looking like a much better ship 
1. "Guns and sensor love" sounds an awful lot like "give me a PvP god-battleship with no real weaknesses"
2. You appear to have missed almost 50 pages of dislike toward the current proposal, a lot of which was "we liked the old one better and get rid of the web bonuses" |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:06:00 -
[3513] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Yes, and that's over a month's training time. I'd be just a little pissed if CCP said "yeah, we know these things are mostly used for missions but now they're going to be useless for missions and you'll have to train something else now". I really don't think you or anyone else can invent a reason why anyone in this game would be happy seeing over 2.5 million SP now be worthless to their character. Wolfgang Achari wrote:Likewise, in reference to the T2 resists vs. rep bonus, I'd like to point out something in the marauder description...
A Paladin isn't in hostile space if the space is controlled by Amarr empire. Take a look at the T2 resists and how they compare to NPC damage types in Minmatar space though (and vice versa for a Vargur in Amarr space). You argue that the T2 resists make the ship weak, I argue that you've been using the wrong ship for the space you've been flying in this entire time. :P And I counter with "balancing by word definition is bad Game Design". The in-game description can be re-written quite easily, it's a poor justification for pretty much anything ever. Marauders have always been PvE focused ships. Another interpretation of your quote could be venturing into mission deadspace pockets to retrieve loot and pirate bounties. It would appear to me that perhaps faction ships are working as intended since their last balance pass. :) Finally, I have not said that rep bonuses are a death sentence for any ship. I've been saying that a proper resist profile is stronger than a rep bonus, which is why all ships with resist bonuses were recently nerfed and may even be nerfed again in the future. You are quoting something from way back in 2009. Since then quite a few things have changed in the game and in CCP's approach to balance. Here's a more recent dev-blog on ship balancing, note that Faction ships are only directly compared to T1 and other faction ships. Specifically this bit here: Quote:Tech, which impacts ship performance, and roles. Tech 1 is the reference in ship balancing, while faction ships (navy and pirate variants) are most often plain improvements, tech 2 offer a specialized purpose and tech 3 give opportunities for generalization. Specialization means that they are going to be better in specific areas than non-specialized ships and can be also taken to mean having unique bonuses that aren't found on more generalized hulls like the Faction and T1 variants. More to the point though, it indicates a definite shift from Pirate ships having a "focused and specialized role" and more toward them being bigger and more powerful T1 hulls. As for the resist profile, again, not in missions where your damage types are pre-defined and you build to resist against those specific profiles.
Why is it so unreasonable to have marauder pilots train one more skill to get the most out of their ship? In what PvE content are these ships going to become so useless that players stop using them altogether if their rep bonus is replaced? In fact, why is the rep bonus sacrosanct to begin with? I get that current proposition has them losing 37.5% reps on (only) racial NPC's when they're out of bastion mode, but that alone is not such a great amount to render the ship useless by any stretch of the imagination. Especially when so many (T1) ships without rep bonuses have no issues tanking the exact same content. By the same token, your entire reasoning to retain the rep bonus is because of the ship's home region rats, yet the T2 resist profile would allow the ship's tank to perform much better in a majority of other regions in the game. Which raises another point, I would wager that a very healthy majority of Paladins and Vargurs are also flown outside of their home faction space. You would deny a (likely much larger) group of players the benefit of T2 resists over the rep bonus, simply because a(n even smaller) group of players use those two ships only in their home regions? Where is the sense in that?
It may also be worth bringing up the Armageddon at this point. Players had to (potentially) train a completely new set of skills to get the most out of this ship when they changed it. Miraculously the ship is still being used today, even after such a drastic change to the hull. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
192
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:11:00 -
[3514] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I forgot to bold the part of the Role Bonus I changed. I dropped it to 80% weapon damage from the 100% it is now. That equates to 9 turrets/launchers with a 5 turret/launcher fitting and 7.2 with a 4 turret fitting. So for people who want to take the hull as it is and forget bastion you have a 12.5% damage increase over TQ. I think you're right though this comes a little too close to Pirate BS damage levels.
The main point was that you can now offer a bastion module that provides bonuses that can be comparable to 1.8 active turrets/launchers. Make it worth giving up the extra damage for some unique utility or special abilities. You could remove much of the current drawbacks to the bastion module. Here's a pseudo equation that illustrates the goal. The details would obviously have to be thought out well:
Hull Bonuses + 5 turrets/launchers (9 effective) ~= Hull Bonuses + 4 turrets/launchers (7.2 effective) + Bastion Bonuses/Abilities
I see this as being a knife edge to balance though, since a vast majority of players aren't going to see giving up 1/5th of their DPS as being worth it unless the trade-off is clearly worth it. Any trade-off that's a no-brainer is probably a no-brainer because it's over-powered and not a real tradeoff.
Also, to put a couple numbers behind that. 12.5% DPS is currently the exact difference in turret DPS between the Kronos and the Vindicator when both ships are fully bonused. Also your math is missing the 25% damage bonus on 3 of the 4 hulls at present which actually puts the Kronos at 11.25 effective turrets of damage to the Vindicator's 11 flat. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:14:00 -
[3515] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Wedgetail wrote:i like your idea of the rep kiting and yes that'd be excellent - but the marauders will never have to deal with this, as the only real (read reasonably effective and not suicidal) way to kill one will be to nuke it with other long range guns - it'll have no time to rep, it'll be alive...then a second later dead - and this circumstance holds true deployed or not =/ (because of their already absurd damage projection) Except again, with low overall EHP you can just break their tank with DPS, either from short or long-ranged guns, and they'll burn down very very quickly. For the first proposal ~3-4 blaster battleships would be required on most, for the current iteration it's only 2-3 in Bastion. Or you can just neut them out, if they're using an ASB tank then they've either chucked most other utility too fit that or they're running a single ASB and you just have to run them out of cap-boosters. Either way it's not infeasible for 3-4 battleships to blow through the shields on an ASB Vargur before it can do a rep cycle at which point armor and hull damage will kill it before it runs out of cap boosters.
"fast" wasn't just in terms of velocity, but reaction time - referring in the sense that "whatever they do it must be done quickly"
takes less time for cruiser gangs to move to and from a target several systems away than a battleship, easier to chase down people over many systems.
and with the bastion loads the dps battleships have to get close enough, without bastion range bonuses most of these marauders can already fire effectively at near on 150 km with close range weapons, afterwards this'll be pushed out to near 170 - a standard t1 battleship with close range guns will function at a max of 50-60 km and a pirate BS at about 100 (yes damage reduction over extreme range applies but that's still a damn long way to be slow boating under fire)
let alone the idea that these ships will be able to effectively carry heavy artillery weapons with the fitting requirements - props to anyone that manages to survive the journey of approaching the marauders sitting off the gate camping, then surviving again after they MJD off into the distance when you get 50 km from them -.- (the scenario i worry about when saying 'the only effective way to remove these things is with artillery') |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4602
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:17:00 -
[3516] - Quote
Keep in mind that many players don't understand fitting for gank if your NPC targets are weak to your weapons, and max tank if you are weak to their weapons. It doesn't make sense to them unless their chosen NPC target is both weak to their damage type and also using weapons that deal damage the players ship is strongest versus.
Limiting yourself to your own racial space is a somewhat silly concept in EVE. Choose and fit your ship according to what you will be facing. Stop demanding that a ship have ideal resists and the perfect damage type for the local enemy.
And in the unlikely event that you can't choose or fit a ship to fit your purposes vs. a particular NPC... choose a different target.
Meanwhile, carry on.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:25:00 -
[3517] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I forgot to bold the part of the Role Bonus I changed. I dropped it to 80% weapon damage from the 100% it is now. That equates to 9 turrets/launchers with a 5 turret/launcher fitting and 7.2 with a 4 turret fitting. So for people who want to take the hull as it is and forget bastion you have a 12.5% damage increase over TQ. I think you're right though this comes a little too close to Pirate BS damage levels.
The main point was that you can now offer a bastion module that provides bonuses that can be comparable to 1.8 active turrets/launchers. Make it worth giving up the extra damage for some unique utility or special abilities. You could remove much of the current drawbacks to the bastion module. Here's a pseudo equation that illustrates the goal. The details would obviously have to be thought out well:
Hull Bonuses + 5 turrets/launchers (9 effective) ~= Hull Bonuses + 4 turrets/launchers (7.2 effective) + Bastion Bonuses/Abilities I see this as being a knife edge to balance though, since a vast majority of players aren't going to see giving up 1/5th of their DPS as being worth it unless the trade-off is clearly worth it. Any trade-off that's a no-brainer is probably a no-brainer because it's over-powered and not a real tradeoff. Also, to put a couple numbers behind that. 12.5% DPS is currently the exact difference in turret DPS between the Kronos and the Vindicator when both ships are fully bonused. Also your math is missing the 25% damage bonus on 3 of the 4 hulls at present which actually puts the Kronos at 11.25 effective turrets of damage to the Vindicator's 11 flat.
You're right about the hull bonus. I dropped it out because i usually compare the nightmare to the paladin (bit of a laser head apparently). I agree that it would take some effort to balance my value equation. However, the apparent dev value equation is even more difficult. It doesn't take much to easily over power a 4th utility high slot so you wind up having drawbacks that are almost equally bad as the bonuses are beneficial.
Basically I'm talking about equating the bastion module bonuses and abilities to 20% damage compared to 5 turrets or 10% damage compared to the TQ version of the Marauder. The combination of 12.5% damage increase over existing TQ hulls coupled with the removal of the tanking bonus would at least smooth out some of the PVE mission issues. I think that would be a fair trade from an efficiency stand-point. With the added damage, the total incoming dps would drop quickly. I think 12.5% would be enough to reduce the volley count on some of the tougher cruisers, battle cruisers, and battle ships. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:27:00 -
[3518] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?
smaller drone bay? 37.5% tank nerf. 50% drone bandwidth nerf. 25% speed nerf. 50% mass nerf. 10% HP nerf. 25% web nerf.
Where do I sign up for more nerfs on my multi billion isk ships???????
 Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
193
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:31:00 -
[3519] - Quote
Going to break this up because there's a lot of different points in one 'paragraph'...
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Why is it so unreasonable to have marauder pilots train one more skill to get the most out of their ship?
I am honestly not sure where you got this since it's certainly not in that large block of text you quoted.
If you're referring to the Bastion, then I would very much prefer the Bastion Module to be a mostly self-contained set of trade-offs that are balanced against the Marauder hulls (not all trade-offs are balanced for all ships) rather than a module that rounds out an otherwise incomplete hull and is largely required for the ship to function usefully.
This is simply my preference because I believe it makes for a more rounded ship and more balanced gameplay overall.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:In what PvE content are these ships going to become so useless that players stop using them altogether if their rep bonus is replaced? In fact, why is the rep bonus sacrosanct to begin with? I get that current proposition has them losing 37.5% reps on (only) racial NPC's when they're out of bastion mode, but that alone is not such a great amount to render the ship useless by any stretch of the imagination. Especially when so many (T1) ships without rep bonuses have no issues tanking the exact same content. By the same token, your entire reasoning to retain the rep bonus is because of the ship's home region rats, yet the T2 resist profile would allow the ship's tank to perform much better in a majority of other regions in the game. Which raises another point, I would wager that a very healthy majority of Paladins and Vargurs are also flown outside of their home faction space. You would deny a (likely much larger) group of players the benefit of T2 resists over the rep bonus, simply because a(n even smaller) group of players use those two ships only in their home regions? Where is the sense in that?
I went into this in a great deal of detail a number of pages back but I'll sum up the main points for you.
First, a majority of T1 ships do, in fact, have trouble tanking a lot of higher damage missions. They have to warp out, possibly repeatedly, if they can't bring down incomming DPS fast enough.
Second as has been pointed out repeatedly the local repair bonus lets you juggle around modules more freely and/or fit a less shiny tank which makes you less of a gank target. As things stood before the local-repair buffs of the last patch a dead-space tank was pretty much a requirement for efficient mission running. There are certainly exceptions to this but not very many.
As for your claim that they get a significant buff against a majority of other rats, that's somewhat up for debate. As I pointed out previously though, you're generally best off fighting your faction's rats in that faction's ship because you can hit them in their weakest resists. This is less true for the Golem and Vargur but the Vargur also gains the least out of its resists since Thermal is only a primary damage type on Mercenaries (generally not hard to tank anyway) and laser ships. On the flip side the Kinetic on the Paladin is hurt by most Kinetic damage enemies not taking as much damage from lasers as other weapon systems.
This creates an inequality between the various Marauders where the Kronos and Golem are left with a flat buff to their resists for most missions while the Vargur and Paladin are forced to choose between dealing more damage or tanking better and still won't tank as well as the Kronos and Vargur for most rats anyway.
If they were keeping the local repair bonus this wouldn't be as much off an issue. The inequality would still exist to some extent but at least these ships wouldn't be getting a straight downgrade from their current stats on TQ.
It's also worth pointing out that given this flat downgrade you're generally going to be better off swapping to a Pirate Battleship for the higher DPS since you're not really tanking any better.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:It may also be worth bringing up the Armageddon at this point. Players had to (potentially) train a completely new set of skills to get the most out of this ship when they changed it. Miraculously the ship is still being used today, even after such a drastic change to the hull.
Yes, but the Armageddon's old role was pretty sub-standard anyway. It was an intro level Battleship and with the skill requirements moved around and the other hulls rebalanced it would have been left as little brother to either the Abaddon or the Apocalypse.
On the other hand in its new role it has quite a strong use as a dedicated cap-warfare ship with strong drone damage which is quite useful in a variety of PvP situations.
Overall this is hardly comparable to the Marauders which have something of a dedicated little niche already, they just need to fill out that niche better and be expanded into other roles, not be moved to a completely different part of the balance map. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:31:00 -
[3520] - Quote
I still believe that if CCP wants to improve PVP abilities on a T2 battleship, go play with the blops.
If you want to improve PVE, ok, now you have my written consent to mess around with my Paladin.
Please do not try to make my bread and butter armor incursion ship a hybrid pvp ship. T2 battleships should be extremely specialized ships, not catch as catch can all purpose cluster fahks
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:36:00 -
[3521] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:I've explained at length the crippling impact of the 2008 web changes on blaster battleships (and implications of losing the bonus completely) from the perspective of someone with a great deal of experience with them, i'm not going to repeat myself. I do have to ask what your experience with blaster battleships is though?
I'm amazed CCP have gone for the resist bonus - for high end stuff it so outweighs a self repair bonus (and loss of) it isnt even funny.
And I countered your points, to which you failed to respond (some 80+ pages back if I recall). CCP have since buffed blaster ships and right now they're almost as fast as comparable Minmattar ships while having higher agility (again, see previous counter for numerical examples). Overall they are in a better relative state to other hulls than they were 5 years ago. CCP's original logic with both the web nerf and the speed nerf that precipitated it was very sound. Overall you seem to be implying, quite against evidence, that Blaster Battleships are in a worse state than any other Battleship hull and have been for the last ~5 years. If webs were limited to one per ship then the 90% webs might somehow be justified, but as things stand it's hardly required to catch and hold a comparably sized ship and mostly serves to utterly destroy any smaller ship that gets within your web-range. As for a resist bonus, that would just lead to absurd levels of tank on the order of Command Ships and for self-repair the local rep bonus is actually superior. You never replied to my points here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3570733#post3570733
But I understand now that is because you have no background or experience flying blaster Battleships and therefore are in no position to comment on changes that occured before your time - concession accepted.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
728
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:46:00 -
[3522] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Keep in mind that many players don't understand fitting for gank if your NPC targets are weak to your weapons, and max tank if you are weak to their weapons. It doesn't make sense to them unless their chosen NPC target is both weak to their damage type and also using weapons that deal damage the players ship is strongest versus. Limiting yourself to your own racial space is a somewhat silly concept in EVE. Choose and fit your ship according to what you will be facing. Stop demanding that a ship have ideal resists and the perfect damage type for the local enemy. And in the unlikely event that you can't choose or fit a ship to fit your purposes vs. a particular NPC... choose a different target. Meanwhile, carry on.  A big issue is primarily that some of the new marauders are at a distinct disadvantage there. Alone that isn't an issue, but when it allows some races to step on the toes of others it becomes an issue. This becomes more true with older pilots that can field most or all of the marauders but will likely side with versatility or maximum effect. Those things together do make for an overall loser of the group. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
193
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:53:00 -
[3523] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Keep in mind that many players don't understand fitting for gank if your NPC targets are weak to your weapons, and max tank if you are weak to their weapons. It doesn't make sense to them unless their chosen NPC target is both weak to their damage type and also using weapons that deal damage the players ship is strongest versus. Limiting yourself to your own racial space is a somewhat silly concept in EVE. Choose and fit your ship according to what you will be facing. Stop demanding that a ship have ideal resists and the perfect damage type for the local enemy. And in the unlikely event that you can't choose or fit a ship to fit your purposes vs. a particular NPC... choose a different target. Meanwhile, carry on. 
Still runs into the problem of ships that don't have to make this trade-off (Kronos and Golem) vs ships that do (Vargur and Paladin). Which would overall be much less of an issue if they still had their local repair bonuses, even with the T2 resists.
Wedgetail wrote:"fast" wasn't just in terms of velocity, but reaction time - referring in the sense that "whatever they do it must be done quickly"
takes less time for cruiser gangs to move to and from a target several systems away than a battleship, easier to chase down people over many systems.
and with the bastion loads the dps battleships have to get close enough, without bastion range bonuses most of these marauders can already fire effectively at near on 150 km with close range weapons, afterwards this'll be pushed out to near 170 - a standard t1 battleship with close range guns will function at a max of 50-60 km and a pirate BS at about 100 (yes damage reduction over extreme range applies but that's still a damn long way to be slow boating under fire)
let alone the idea that these ships will be able to effectively carry heavy artillery weapons with the fitting requirements - props to anyone that manages to survive the journey of approaching the marauders sitting off the gate camping, then surviving again after they MJD off into the distance when you get 50 km from them -.- (the scenario i worry about when saying 'the only effective way to remove these things is with artillery')
Um, what?
You lost me at 150km with close-range weapons. The only ship that has a hope or a prayer of dealing any amount of DPS at 150km with its short-range weapons system is the Paladin and even with four Fed Navy Tracking Computers Scorch only goes to 93+22 (generally optimal+falloff is where you stop doing "good" damage). Autocannons, Torpedoes, and Blasters all don't have a hope or a prayer of getting much past 50km.
This actually won't be increased much by Bastion because the last we heard the Bastion range bonus was stacking penalized.
As for the idea that these ships will be blapping everything before it can get close is a little ridiculous. There are certainly setups that already make use of this idea with other hulls but they're not exactly common because if you can get a warp-in on top of your 100km sniper squad then they're too close to warp to (and if they're far enough to warp to then someone will warp to them from the gate) and out of range of the rest of your fleet's help.
In general though long range guns or even short range guns firing at long range don't deal enough DPS to really turn the tide of a pitched fight unless you have overwhelming numbers anyway in which case the fight isn't really pitched. Against even numbers a short-range squad with logi support will burn down your close-range tackle/DPS on the gate and then just warp off or burn out of the bubble, possibly then warping back on top of your Marauders with the aid of a cloaky scout and/or probes.
At this point they're dead meat so long as they can't do something silly like use a MJD while E-war immune... >.> |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
728
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 21:58:00 -
[3524] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Keep in mind that many players don't understand fitting for gank if your NPC targets are weak to your weapons, and max tank if you are weak to their weapons. It doesn't make sense to them unless their chosen NPC target is both weak to their damage type and also using weapons that deal damage the players ship is strongest versus. Limiting yourself to your own racial space is a somewhat silly concept in EVE. Choose and fit your ship according to what you will be facing. Stop demanding that a ship have ideal resists and the perfect damage type for the local enemy. And in the unlikely event that you can't choose or fit a ship to fit your purposes vs. a particular NPC... choose a different target. Meanwhile, carry on.  Still runs into the problem of ships that don't have to make this trade-off (Kronos and Golem) vs ships that do (Vargur and Paladin). Which would overall be much less of an issue if they still had their local repair bonuses, even with the T2 resists. Vargur not so much, it can output EM fine while having native EM/therm resists. Vargur and Golem also have better versatility for single ship pilots.
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 22:07:00 -
[3525] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Keep in mind that many players don't understand fitting for gank if your NPC targets are weak to your weapons, and max tank if you are weak to their weapons. It doesn't make sense to them unless their chosen NPC target is both weak to their damage type and also using weapons that deal damage the players ship is strongest versus. Limiting yourself to your own racial space is a somewhat silly concept in EVE. Choose and fit your ship according to what you will be facing. Stop demanding that a ship have ideal resists and the perfect damage type for the local enemy. And in the unlikely event that you can't choose or fit a ship to fit your purposes vs. a particular NPC... choose a different target. Meanwhile, carry on. 
Sure. So why Kronos and Golem gets it and Paladin and Vargur don't? And since Kin and Ther are the best (arguably) resists in PvP it adds up. Its not about making perfect ship for racial missions its about equality between marauder hulls. Kronos is just much better at fitting for missions than Paladin, while also being better at pvp (since it gets the most benefits out of web bonus).
Anyway criticizing the current version is redundant as it probably will get scrapped. Now we should supply CCP with fresh, both good and bad ideas for them to consider (Mini doomsday weapon while sieged! Yey!). |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
193
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 22:14:00 -
[3526] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:You never replied to my points here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3570733#post3570733But I understand now that is because you have no background or experience flying blaster Battleships and therefore are in no position to comment on changes that occured before your time - concession accepted. Edit: You ducked/misunderstood my point about self-repair for 'high end stuff' - it's totally useless, as Incursions e.t.c ('High end stuff') are all based around remote repair....
Woops, must have missed your post. One second while I dig into some numbers.
Also for reference I'm a dedicated Hybrids pilot, I fly almost exclusively Blaster and Railgun boats and am well versed in their strengths and weaknesses. If you believe 90% webs are required for a Blaster ship then you're using them wrong.
Gabriel Karade wrote:IGÇÖll keep it straightforward: 90% webs today cannot be viewed in the same light as pre 2008. Back then ABGÇÖs were rubbish (double digit % bonus meaning bugger all difference to speed), tracking disrupters were rubbish and the bit about MWD you have completely misunderstood GÇô the blaster pilot could light his MWD to pull some range to get better hits GÇô if the other pilot did the same the sig bloom would kill them. With MWD killing scrams you no longer have to worry about this, going toe-to-toe with a blaster battleship. In my opinion 90% webs should have never been taken away from any blaster platforms. Period. I did point out back at the time ( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=834365&page=15#424) the absurdity of removing 90% webs from the slow platforms with sub 10km optimal range and how this equated to a 400% increase in target transversal GÇô in that particular test a zero fit stabber (no modules) orbiting a Ion II Megathron with impunity GÇô with no corresponding increase in tracking. Fundamentally this is down to a flaw in the tracking formula (doesnGÇÖt account for actual target size up close) but that is never going to get fixed. As to my Frigate example, you completely forgot a crucial variable; scan resolution GÇô by the time the Battleship has the frigate locked up from a typical gate encounter, if it is appropriately AB fit to counter said blaster Battleship it will be sufficiently close to mitigate the speed drop. If he has double webs? (Vindi - 5 mids, doesnGÇÖt help Kronos) Well donGÇÖt fight him on his terms, itGÇÖs really quite straightforwardGǪ. Fundamentally Battleship-sized blaster platforms were shafted by the 2008 speed changes and have never recovered and I speak as someone who has roughly half his career kills flying a blaster Megathron solo. CCP momentarily recognised this when they re-worked Serpentis hulls back in 2009, getting rid of the MWD cap bonus for the only blaster related bonus to make sense *drum roll*GǪ. 90% webs. DonGÇÖt take it off the last viable solo/very small gang pure Gallente blaster Battleship.
First off, the AB buff works both ways, helping Blaster boats as well as their enemies, so does the MWD/scram changes. With a web and a scram an enemy with a MWD is going to have a hard time pulling range on a Blaster ship.
You are of-course entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see any good justification for a system that completely destroyed smaller ships if they get within web-range and reduced combat to a nearly static "I shoot then you shoot" scenario.
I was curious about your claims of "orbiting with impunity" so I decided to take a fairly stock Megathron fit and throw it against, as you said, a purely blank Stabber (with all 5s on both). This was the result with Neutrons on the Megathron and one T2 web.
As for your claim that a frigate can get in close enough to mitigate this, this is only true right up until that web turns on. At this point the Battleship is actually moving faster than the ABing frigate (and he's certainly not going to be MWDing at that range either because he's scrammed or because it would kill his tracking and the sig bloom would kill him). This means that the Battleship can now pull range on the frigate and reduce the traversal to almost nothing, and that's without even turning on a prop-mod.
As for the dual web scenario, anything that makes the answer "well you can't engage that ship with an entire ship class" is bad balancing. Battleships are supposed to be at least somewhat vulnerable to smaller hulls due to their speed and maneuverability. This is why smaller hulls do less damage and have less HP. If you can completely negate that advantage then there's a balance problem since no other battleship can do that.
Back in 2009 they also created one of the single most powerful hulls in the game that's proceeded to over-shadow every other T1 and T2 hybrids platform with its raw DPS and web bonus. It's even generally considered flat better than many ships that don't use the same weapons system because that web bonus makes it essentially immune to smaller ships getting under its guns and if they pull range then they're easier to track.
Overall you're just sounding like a bitter-vet whose favorite OP toy got taken away.  |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 22:44:00 -
[3527] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Wedgetail wrote:"fast" wasn't just in terms of velocity, but reaction time - referring in the sense that "whatever they do it must be done quickly"
takes less time for cruiser gangs to move to and from a target several systems away than a battleship, easier to chase down people over many systems.
and with the bastion loads the dps battleships have to get close enough, without bastion range bonuses most of these marauders can already fire effectively at near on 150 km with close range weapons, afterwards this'll be pushed out to near 170 - a standard t1 battleship with close range guns will function at a max of 50-60 km and a pirate BS at about 100 (yes damage reduction over extreme range applies but that's still a damn long way to be slow boating under fire)
let alone the idea that these ships will be able to effectively carry heavy artillery weapons with the fitting requirements - props to anyone that manages to survive the journey of approaching the marauders sitting off the gate camping, then surviving again after they MJD off into the distance when you get 50 km from them -.- (the scenario i worry about when saying 'the only effective way to remove these things is with artillery') Um, what? You lost me at 150km with close-range weapons. The only ship that has a hope or a prayer of dealing any amount of DPS at 150km with its short-range weapons system is the Paladin and even with four Fed Navy Tracking Computers Scorch only goes to 93+22 (generally optimal+falloff is where you stop doing "good" damage). Autocannons, Torpedoes, and Blasters all don't have a hope or a prayer of getting much past 50km. This actually won't be increased much by Bastion because the last we heard the Bastion range bonus was stacking penalized. As for the idea that these ships will be blapping everything before it can get close is a little ridiculous. There are certainly setups that already make use of this idea with other hulls but they're not exactly common because if you can get a warp-in on top of your 100km sniper squad then they're too close to warp to (and if they're far enough to warp to then someone will warp to them from the gate) and out of range of the rest of your fleet's help. In general though long range guns or even short range guns firing at long range don't deal enough DPS to really turn the tide of a pitched fight unless you have overwhelming numbers anyway in which case the fight isn't really pitched. Against even numbers a short-range squad with logi support will burn down your close-range tackle/DPS on the gate and then just warp off or burn out of the bubble, possibly then warping back on top of your Marauders with the aid of a cloaky scout and/or probes. At this point they're dead meat so long as they can't do something silly like use a MJD while E-war immune... >.>
I believe that what hes talking about is the second tier artillery, 1200's vs 1400's as close range weapons. OR possibly about falloff on 800 ac which has a chance to hit things at 150km but is very unlikely. (there is a chance to hit things at Optimal+falloff+falloff but its very low. Since AC is the only one that has the range on falloff i can only assume hes talking about this or is completely stupid. ) Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
195
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:00:00 -
[3528] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:I believe that what hes talking about is the second tier artillery, 1200's vs 1400's as close range weapons. OR possibly about falloff on 800 ac which has a chance to hit things at 150km but is very unlikely. (there is a chance to hit things at Optimal+falloff+falloff but its very low. Since AC is the only one that has the range on falloff i can only assume hes talking about this or is completely stupid. )
Technically there's a 1% chance to deal a wrecking hit at any range, which is roughly 300% strength, which is why your DPS never drops belong 3% no matter how long your range goes, relying on this is extremely impractical however. |

Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:03:00 -
[3529] - Quote
Some suggestions for the "fancy visible animations" for the various Marauders in Bastion mode:
* Paladin slides into a protective plastic membrane sleeve (aka "C.O.N.D.O.M.") with a "classified" viscous fluid armor coating;
* Golem moves its missile launcher wings in sweeping up and down motion for increased gyrostabilization, and emits piercing squawks to jam enemy electronics;
* Kronos emanates a high pitched tone tuned to oscillate in resonance with its armor plating, as its tines vibrate;
* Vargur becomes enveloped with overlapping webs of black protective heat resistant shielding (aka "D.U.C.T.A.P.E.") and radiates a fine particulate defensive chaff (aka rust). |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:11:00 -
[3530] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Some suggestions for the "fancy visible animations" for the various Marauders in Bastion mode:
* Paladin slides into a protective plastic membrane sleeve (aka "C.O.N.D.O.M.") with a "classified" viscous fluid armor coating;
* Golem moves its missile launcher wings in sweeping up and down motion for increased gyrostabilization, and emits piercing squawks to jam enemy electronics;
* Kronos emanates a high pitched tone tuned to oscillate in resonance with its armor plating, as its tines vibrate;
* Vargur becomes enveloped with overlapping webs of black protective heat resistant shielding (aka "D.U.C.T.A.P.E.") and radiates a fine particulate defensive chaff (aka rust). Thats enough internet for tonight. If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:14:00 -
[3531] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Going to break this up because there's a lot of different points in one 'paragraph'... I am honestly not sure where you got this since it's certainly not in that large block of text you quoted. If you're referring to the Bastion, then I would very much prefer the Bastion Module to be a mostly self-contained set of trade-offs that are balanced against the Marauder hulls (not all trade-offs are balanced for all ships) rather than a module that rounds out an otherwise incomplete hull and is largely required for the ship to function usefully. This is simply my preference because I believe it makes for a more rounded ship and more balanced gameplay overall. I went into this in a great deal of detail a number of pages back but I'll sum up the main points for you. First, a majority of T1 ships do, in fact, have trouble tanking a lot of higher damage missions. They have to warp out, possibly repeatedly, if they can't bring down incomming DPS fast enough. Second as has been pointed out repeatedly the local repair bonus lets you juggle around modules more freely and/or fit a less shiny tank which makes you less of a gank target. As things stood before the local-repair buffs of the last patch a dead-space tank was pretty much a requirement for efficient mission running. There are certainly exceptions to this but not very many. As for your claim that they get a significant buff against a majority of other rats, that's somewhat up for debate. As I pointed out previously though, you're generally best off fighting your faction's rats in that faction's ship because you can hit them in their weakest resists. This is less true for the Golem and Vargur but the Vargur also gains the least out of its resists since Thermal is only a primary damage type on Mercenaries (generally not hard to tank anyway) and laser ships. On the flip side the Kinetic on the Paladin is hurt by most Kinetic damage enemies not taking as much damage from lasers as other weapon systems. This creates an inequality between the various Marauders where the Kronos and Golem are left with a flat buff to their resists for most missions while the Vargur and Paladin are forced to choose between dealing more damage or tanking better and still won't tank as well as the Kronos and Vargur for most rats anyway. If they were keeping the local repair bonus this wouldn't be as much off an issue. The inequality would still exist to some extent but at least these ships wouldn't be getting a straight downgrade from their current stats on TQ. It's also worth pointing out that given this flat downgrade you're generally going to be better off swapping to a Pirate Battleship for the higher DPS since you're not really tanking any better. Yes, but the Armageddon's old role was pretty sub-standard anyway. It was an intro level Battleship and with the skill requirements moved around and the other hulls rebalanced it would have been left as little brother to either the Abaddon or the Apocalypse. On the other hand in its new role it has quite a strong use as a dedicated cap-warfare ship with strong drone damage which is quite useful in a variety of PvP situations. Overall this is hardly comparable to the Marauders which have something of a dedicated little niche already, they just need to fill out that niche better and be expanded into other roles, not be moved to a completely different part of the balance map.
- That first one did kind of come out of left field, but switching to a T2 resist profile has never made a hull incomplete.
- Which missions exactly? I haven't ever used anything greater than T2 modules for tanking during missions. I even pulled out a few old non-faction T1 missions ships to give them a go over the last couple of days. Not once did I find myself needing to warp out of a mission, whether it be world's collide or any of the extravaganza missions (including bonus rooms).
- With a T1 resist profile a rep bonus certainly does allow you to juggle tank mods, with a T2 resist profile you can get away with using fewer tank mods to begin with.
- When 3 out of 4 resists are 50% or higher before adding any tank mods, you are going to be at a distinct advantage when facing a majority of NPC's compared to other ships. However since I'm clearly missing the point, would you be so kind to explain to me how that is debatable? I am genuinely curious.
As for the Paladin, it has the exact same problem nearly all other (T1/T2/Faction) Amarrian hulls have. Perhaps we should just switch either the primary weapon system or tanks on Amarr hulls altogether to alleviate this problem.
- Then request a more appropriate T2 resist profile for those two ships. This gives you the tank you want for your local NPC's, providing greater opportunities for PvE fits to fulfill it's niche role better, and allows the ship to be more flexible in other play styles as well.
- Again, if better resists are such a downgrade why are resist bonuses still on the chopping block? I also didn't realize that there was ever a point in bringing less DPS to missions. Especially when you aren't applying the DPS any better.
- Nothing wrong with having an inexpensive DPS boat, though a bit unimaginative I'll grant you. My point was that the hull was used much more frequently than marauders ever have been and it survived a very significant balance change just fine.
Another point from left field, I have noticed that a few people have been pointing out that there have been 40-50+ pages since the announcement of dropping the rep bonus in favor of T2 resists. What they haven't been pointing out is that a majority of those posts are by the same people. So either the marauder club in EVE has hired a spokesperson(s) or there are just a few very vocal people who don't like the switch. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:16:00 -
[3532] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:I believe that what hes talking about is the second tier artillery, 1200's vs 1400's as close range weapons. OR possibly about falloff on 800 ac which has a chance to hit things at 150km but is very unlikely. (there is a chance to hit things at Optimal+falloff+falloff but its very low. Since AC is the only one that has the range on falloff i can only assume hes talking about this or is completely stupid. ) Technically there's a 1% chance to deal a wrecking hit at any range, which is roughly 300% strength, which is why your DPS never drops belong 3% no matter how long your range goes, relying on this is extremely impractical however.
i had been typing an explanation but forum said no not posting - so i'll sort it out later
first cade: i have to apologize for neglecting to factor in the golem and kronos into my consideration, my neglect detracted from the discussion.
- yes i was referring to autocanons specifically loaded with barrage and a pair of TC's (50 km is the range a vargur has using EMP)
range works as: optimal + falloff = 50% damage optimal + falloffx2 = near 0
minmatar fight at optimal + (falloff x 1.5) (~33% max damage application) - something vagabonds do all the time - this is considered acceptable and the vargur's weapon range and tracking combinations is what makes this viable.
the thinking was based upon the premise that the majority of gangs are cruisers and frigates, battleships not becoming prevalent until the gang reaches about 10-15 people or more (due to the fact that battleships are cumbersome and difficult to support in lower numbers)
so there is not one or two marauders, but 4 or 5, prioritising the destruction of cruiser size hulls from about 80-150 km - which is my maximum expected engagement range for a marauder using short range weapons (if they started pelting me with autocannon fire from 200 km i'd be a bit shocked yea? XD )
(i used 150 as the upper limit, the "worst case" out of laziness, and the assumption that anything lower than that range would be more manageable for an aggressor) |

Chimpface Holocaust
Zarnfell
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:17:00 -
[3533] - Quote
When can we expect to see some concept art for the visual Bastion transformation? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
183
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:20:00 -
[3534] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Some suggestions for the "fancy visible animations" for the various Marauders in Bastion mode:
* Paladin slides into a protective plastic membrane sleeve (aka "C.O.N.D.O.M.") with a "classified" viscous fluid armor coating;
* Golem moves its missile launcher wings in sweeping up and down motion for increased gyrostabilization, and emits piercing squawks to jam enemy electronics;
* Kronos emanates a high pitched tone tuned to oscillate in resonance with its armor plating, as its tines vibrate;
* Vargur becomes enveloped with overlapping webs of black protective heat resistant shielding (aka "D.U.C.T.A.P.E.") and radiates a fine particulate defensive chaff (aka rust).
Reading this I suddenly had a vision of a certain scene from Southland Tales. Well played sir, well played. :D
PS. I think the Kronos should employ the ("D.E.E.P.S.H.I.T") armor enhancer with the codename for the Golem oscillation ("E.R.E.C.T.I.O.N") I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Marco Uvex
New Eden Union Evil.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:30:00 -
[3535] - Quote
After all I read a refund of SP woud be the best solution for all ( if the "rebalancing" ever getting real). |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
729
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:43:00 -
[3536] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:- That first one did kind of come out of left field, but switching to a T2 resist profile has never made a hull incomplete.
- Which missions exactly? I haven't ever used anything greater than T2 modules for tanking during missions. I even pulled out a few old non-faction T1 missions ships to give them a go over the last couple of days. Not once did I find myself needing to warp out of a mission, whether it be world's collide or any of the extravaganza missions (including bonus rooms).
- With a T1 resist profile a rep bonus certainly does allow you to juggle tank mods, with a T2 resist profile you can get away with using fewer tank mods to begin with.
- When 3 out of 4 resists are 50% or higher before adding any tank mods, you are going to be at a distinct advantage when facing a majority of NPC's compared to other ships. However since I'm clearly missing the point, would you be so kind to explain to me how that is debatable? I am genuinely curious. The inclusion ofT2 resists has similarly never completed a ship. Also, since the resist increase is selective vs the rep bonus which applies to whatever you are tanking it means that sometimes it may reduce the need for a slot to be used vs always with the rep bonus. This is more applicable with the 2 ships with selectable damage output. The absolute resist number is irrelevant since you 50% number needs to draw upon base resists in all cases. Counting T1 resist strengths is not a defense for T2 resists.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:As for the Paladin, it has the exact same problem nearly all other (T1/T2/Faction) Amarrian hulls have. Perhaps we should just switch either the primary weapon system or tanks on Amarr hulls altogether to alleviate this problem.
- Then request a more appropriate T2 resist profile for those two ships. This gives you the tank you want for your local NPC's, providing greater opportunities for PvE fits to fulfill it's niche role better, and allows the ship to be more flexible in other play styles as well. Maybe, but that is beyond the scope here. One thing that can be said is that there isn't really another class that has had this issue since none had had the PvE focus of the Marauders. I certainly don't think it reasonable to address the entire concept for this case, especially when till proposed it never applied.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:- Again, if better resists are such a downgrade why are resist bonuses still on the chopping block? I also didn't realize that there was ever a point in bringing less DPS to missions. Especially when you aren't applying the DPS any better.
- Nothing wrong with having an inexpensive DPS boat, though a bit unimaginative I'll grant you. My point was that the hull was used much more frequently than marauders ever have been and it survived a very significant balance change just fine. All of your arguments ignore the fact that T2 resists are a selective bonus, not a wholesale one. If it was an across the board buff no one would be complaining. It's not, it's 2 of 4 (not 3) per ship which in some cases aligns poorly with the damage tanking/output pairs.
Also which is on the chopping block? You mean the decidedly better 30% to all that was proposed earlier as part of bastion? Probably because it was deemed to be overpowered. It was more effective than the active tank bonus while providing more buffer than a maxed 10% per level HP bonus since it gave almost the same per layer + being applied to all 3 layers.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Another point from left field, I have noticed that a few people have been pointing out that there have been 40-50+ pages since the announcement of dropping the rep bonus in favor of T2 resists. What they haven't been pointing out is that a majority of those posts are by the same people. So either the marauder club in EVE has hired a spokesperson(s) or there are just a few very vocal people who don't like the switch. It's more likely, given the current place marauders hold, that it's only a small number of people who use them enough to care. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
195
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:13:00 -
[3537] - Quote
Segmenting things off because this is a lot of points and I'd rather things not get convoluted.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:- That first one did kind of come out of left field, but switching to a T2 resist profile has never made a hull incomplete.
- Which missions exactly? I haven't ever used anything greater than T2 modules for tanking during missions. I even pulled out a few old non-faction T1 missions ships to give them a go over the last couple of days. Not once did I find myself needing to warp out of a mission, whether it be world's collide or any of the extravaganza missions (including bonus rooms).
-I'm not claiming it makes the hulls incomplete I'm saying that trading the local rep bonus for the T2 resists makes 2 of these hulls noticeably worse at PvE than the other two because they have to make a trade-off that the other two do not.
- Lets see, Blockade, ____ Extravaganza, Worlds Collide, Cargo Delivery is pretty nasty due to the neuting, and there's a good number of others.
Remember, my claim was not that ANY T1 battleship couldn't tank missions, it was that most can't. There's a reason the Raven and Dominix are most of what you hear about for T1 mission ships in PvE circles. The Dominix relies on either 2-3 repair modules or a MJD and the Raven relies on burning down incomming damage before it can either get in range or break your tank and that strategy may still require warp-outs for some missions.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:- With a T1 resist profile a rep bonus certainly does allow you to juggle tank mods, with a T2 resist profile you can get away with using fewer tank mods to begin with.
- When 3 out of 4 resists are 50% or higher before adding any tank mods, you are going to be at a distinct advantage when facing a majority of NPC's compared to other ships. However since I'm clearly missing the point, would you be so kind to explain to me how that is debatable? I am genuinely curious.
The ability to juggle tank mods due to T2 resists only applies if you're facing rats that deal the type of damage your T2 resists are bonused toward. As my previous post points out the vast majority of mission damage is Kinetic and Thermal and both Gallente and Caldari T2 hulls get bonuses against both. This means that no matter what rats they're going against they'll be able to take advantage of at least part of their bonus and against most rats they can take advantage of the full bonus. They also don't have to make a trade-off between resisting damage better and dealing damage better since their resist profiles give them a buff against the rats that they deal the best damage against already.
For Amarr and Minmattar however you have secondary bonuses to Kinetic and Thermal respectively which are smaller than their primary bonus by a good margin. On top of this the rats that they deal the best damage against don't deal either of the types they're bonused toward.
This means that overall with the loss of the 7.5% per level local tank bonus they are in a worse state as mission ships than they are on TQ currently since they now have to make a trade-off that the other two do not in addition to losing overall repair power.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:As for the Paladin, it has the exact same problem nearly all other (T1/T2/Faction) Amarrian hulls have. Perhaps we should just switch either the primary weapon system or tanks on Amarr hulls altogether to alleviate this problem.
The damage profile on Amarr ships is only an issue if it forces you to choose between things you can tank effectively and things you can deal damage to effectively.
In PvP this isn't much of an issue since most people tend to be omni-tanked anyway and Thermal is a good damage type to deal and EM tends to be one of the lower resistances on at least armored tanked ships post hole patching.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:- Then request a more appropriate T2 resist profile for those two ships. This gives you the tank you want for your local NPC's, providing greater opportunities for PvE fits to fulfill it's niche role better, and allows the ship to be more flexible in other play styles as well.
- Again, if better resists are such a downgrade why are resist bonuses still on the chopping block? I also didn't realize that there was ever a point in bringing less DPS to missions. Especially when you aren't applying the DPS any better.
Tweaking resists to match mission rats hurts the ships in PvP. I'm not advocating for the T2 resists to go away or for the resist profile to change, I'm advocating for a local repair bonus on the hulls, preferably rather than on the Bastion module since having one on each seems to be a bit problematic.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:- Nothing wrong with having an inexpensive DPS boat, though a bit unimaginative I'll grant you. My point was that the hull was used much more frequently than marauders ever have been and it survived a very significant balance change just fine.
Another point from left field, I have noticed that a few people have been pointing out that there have been 40-50+ pages since the announcement of dropping the rep bonus in favor of T2 resists. What they haven't been pointing out is that a majority of those posts are by the same people. So either the marauder club in EVE has hired a spokesperson(s) or there are just a few very vocal people who don't like the switch.
Yes, however it partly survived this change because another ship using the same skill requirements dropped into the slot it used to occupy with very little fuss.
Since the Marauders only have one ship per race under this skill it makes sense for them to keep their role and niche rather than seeing a drastic shift. If you want a ship for another role it should go under another skill.
You'll also note that the 50+ pages before that were a different set of "same people" where as there's been many new faces against the current proposal.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
195
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:13:00 -
[3538] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:i had been typing an explanation but forum said no not posting - so i'll sort it out later
first cade: i have to apologize for neglecting to factor in the golem and kronos into my consideration, my neglect detracted from the discussion.
- yes i was referring to autocanons specifically loaded with barrage and a pair of TC's (50 km is the range a vargur has using EMP)
range works as: optimal + falloff = 50% damage optimal + falloffx2 = near 0
minmatar fight at optimal + (falloff x 1.5) (~33% max damage application) - something vagabonds do all the time - this is considered acceptable and the vargur's weapon range and tracking combinations is what makes this viable.
the thinking was based upon the premise that the majority of gangs are cruisers and frigates, battleships not becoming prevalent until the gang reaches about 10-15 people or more (due to the fact that battleships are cumbersome and difficult to support in lower numbers)
so there is not one or two marauders, but 4 or 5, prioritising the destruction of cruiser size hulls from about 80-150 km - which is my maximum expected engagement range for a marauder using short range weapons (if they started pelting me with autocannon fire from 200 km i'd be a bit shocked yea? XD )
(i used 150 as the upper limit, the "worst case" out of laziness, and the assumption that anything lower than that range would be more manageable for an aggressor)
With four tracking computers on 800mm Autocannons with Barrage you end up with an absolutely ticklish 200 DPS at 150km and at 100km you're still only getting ~400 DPS.
This is hardly game-breaking for the reasons I've already mentioned. You're not going to out-DPS short range ships and you're going to need some amount of tackle down at the gate to hold things in place or they're just going to either burn back to the gate before you can kill anything or warp off. If you're in null they can burn out of your bubbles as well if that's what you were relying on. Overall you would be far better off bringing long-range guns which won't track very well if your enemy gets in close.
Taking the example of the Vargur, with 1400mm Artillery I'm getting 150-250 more DPS depending on ammo and which range you're talking about. with the added bonus of being able to alpha-strike soft targets.
A Cruiser with any sort of decent tank and remote assistance should be able to weather ~1000 DPS pretty easily, at 2000 you'd better have at least two dedicated logistics but you're still going to be able to burn back to gate if there's no tackle on-grid.
Never mind that this completely assumes that your enemy jumped a cruiser gang into your perched Battleship gate-camp without a plan to deal with them. If they're doing that you can do the same thing with Maelstroms or almost any other long-range weapons platform for less money and get the same result.
Also you don't tend to perch your artillery 150km off the gate unless you've got a lot of bubbles in place because you're very susceptible to on-grid warps at that range or anything within ~10km of it. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:23:00 -
[3539] - Quote
I just want state that as a Kronos and Vargur pilot (i never liked the paladin or golem but i can currently fly them) I dont like the Bastion module, Nor do i particularly like the resist changes. The Marauders Active tank bonus helps keep it from being super effective at PvP applications as buffer is usually better (though the Vargur does interesting things with it due to the OPness of the XLASB)
the real issue that i see is what exactly is this ship being rebalanced to do? The bastion module is not good for pvp, Sitting at stand still is a good way to die in a fire, very fast, and with a vulnerability to neuts, active armor tanks are dead where they stand. The only pvp winner there is the Vargur, as it gets an incredible boost to local tank (Dual XLASB, one reloads while one runs in Bastion) and has no significant issues applying its dps at engagement ranges.
For PvE, most missions require travel of 10-50 km ranges, rarely does one need to move more then 70km within a mission at a time, It is usually only the salvaging of a mission that requires the long distance movement that a mjd would provide though generally only for one or two wrecks.*
* The only mission i can think of that i need to move a lot in is Mordus headhunters, where the farthest group at ~140km only has an engagement range of some 50km and will return back to their spawn after moving that far.
This role is most often taken by a Noctis, as they have much longer tractor ranges then a marauder and can do that specific part of the job better. *
* this is all play style and choices. I personally will wait till enemies are within my tractor range (which on a kronos is the same as optimal engagement ranges) and thus generally do not need a noctis.
I havent seen any indication that Bastion is any better then current performance, As the CCP dev who used it in an example has not shown it to be better in any way, only different. And only in one very specific fitting style. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Darkwolf
Glyph Scientific
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:32:00 -
[3540] - Quote
I just find it hilarious how we get this statement from CCP Ytterbium (sp?) before we got round 2;
Quote:I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.
And then we get a nerfed web bonus on the Kronos and Paladin, and we get web bonuses added to everything else and tank bonuses taken away.
Yay for consistency!
|
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
195
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:39:00 -
[3541] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:I just find it hilarious how we get this statement from CCP Ytterbium (sp?) before we got round 2; Quote:I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns. And then we get a nerfed web bonus on the Kronos and Paladin, and we get web bonuses added to everything else and tank bonuses taken away. Yay for consistency!
The worst thing the GMs can threaten the player-base with is giving them what they ask for 
As he said in his last post, they're testing both setups and probably some others we haven't seen yet.
Plus the web-bonus was mostly requested by the PvP crowd, not the PvE people, who since the last version seem to be mostly against the web bonus. |

Darkwolf
Glyph Scientific
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:47:00 -
[3542] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:The worst thing the GMs can threaten the player-base with is giving them what they ask for 
Indeed. Made me laugh, that's all. It's like "Web bonuses are terrible. BTW guys! http://i.imgur.com/vmHsOIz.jpg ".
Here's hoping they do something reasonable with it. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
238
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 00:55:00 -
[3543] - Quote
Many longer playing pvp'ers are blaming 90% webs for dreadblapping working aswell as it currently does (and should imo), with 81% (?) webs, stacking penalties will reduce the max efficiency of the two webs max you could ever justify from some 97% down to some 90% (?). It is a whole lot better in comparison to a traditional unbonused web, but it doesn't push them over the edge I believe. 7.5% bonus is a fine thing, now that the repairbonus mostly got built into the hull by resistances.
As was looking forward to flying a Vargur with the first revision, now looking forward to fly a paladin :> Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Gareth Burns
Astricom
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:05:00 -
[3544] - Quote
CCP wut r you doin!? Stahp.
don't give me a damn web bonus on a ship that gets bonuses on micro jump drives! Noblesse Oblige Gû¦ Gareth Burns |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
196
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:19:00 -
[3545] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Many longer playing pvp'ers are blaming 90% webs for dreadblapping working aswell as it currently does (and should imo), with 81% (?) webs, stacking penalties will reduce the max efficiency of the two webs max you could ever justify from some 97% down to some 90% (?). It is a whole lot better in comparison to a traditional unbonused web, but it doesn't push them over the edge I believe. 7.5% bonus is a fine thing, now that the repairbonus mostly got built into the hull by resistances.
As was looking forward to flying a Vargur with the first revision, now looking forward to fly a paladin :>
Actually with two webs it only drops from around 97.83% to 95.06%. Still very dread-blap viable.
As for whether or not dread-blapping *should* work as well as it does... not the place for that debate. We can wait for when the capital-ships balance threadnaught starts up in six months to a year for that doozy of a debate  |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
730
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:25:00 -
[3546] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Many longer playing pvp'ers are blaming 90% webs for dreadblapping working aswell as it currently does (and should imo), with 81% (?) webs, stacking penalties will reduce the max efficiency of the two webs max you could ever justify from some 97% down to some 90% (?). It is a whole lot better in comparison to a traditional unbonused web, but it doesn't push them over the edge I believe. 7.5% bonus is a fine thing, now that the repairbonus mostly got built into the hull by resistances.
As was looking forward to flying a Vargur with the first revision, now looking forward to fly a paladin :> I prefer a repair bonus that works against all the things that could shoot me to one that only works against some.
Also, why a Paladin? What are you doing with it? |

MR DEMOS
Death Knight Legion Evolution of Dawn
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:42:00 -
[3547] - Quote
FAILSCADE IMO.... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
184
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:58:00 -
[3548] - Quote
"'ll give you a winter prediction: It's gonna be cold, it's gonna be grey, and it's gonna last you for the rest of your life." I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

stoicfaux
3102
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 02:07:00 -
[3549] - Quote
The T2 resists are a nerf for at least the Vargur. It would result in a ~25% drop in tank against Angels and Drones with a three slot tank.
OTOH, it gets a 50% boost in tank against Sansha, but if I'm going to mission in EM/Therm land, then I'll probably switch to a Paladin or Nightmare.
-1 for the T2 resists and loss of shield boost bonus
|

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 02:31:00 -
[3550] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The inclusion of T2 resists has similarly never completed a ship. Also, since the resist increase is selective vs the rep bonus which applies to whatever you are tanking it means that sometimes it may reduce the need for a slot to be used vs always with the rep bonus. This is more applicable with the 2 ships with selectable damage output. The absolute resist number is irrelevant since you 50% number needs to draw upon base resists in all cases. Counting T1 resist strengths is not a defense for T2 resists.
It's irrelevant where the 50% resist originates from as it's still part of the T2 resist profile and it's application works exactly the same as the other resists. Likewise, you've ignored my suggestion that the T2 profile is modified to match faction NPC's. Bringing the two boosted resists to where they need to be.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Maybe, but that is beyond the scope here. One thing that can be said is that there isn't really another class that has had this issue since none had had the PvE focus of the Marauders. I certainly don't think it reasonable to address the entire concept for this case, especially when till proposed it never applied.
It's hardly beyond the scope as the biggest issue everyone seems to have with dropping the rep bonus for a T2 resist profile is that the default racial profile is incompatible with faction NPC's. Therefore requesting a modified T2 resist profile to better match up with faction NPC's makes sense as it would end up providing a stronger tank than the current rep bonus for these ships in their home systems.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:All of your arguments ignore the fact that T2 resists are a selective bonus, not a wholesale one. If it was an across the board buff no one would be complaining. It's not, it's 2 of 4 (not 3) per ship which in some cases aligns poorly with the damage tanking/output pairs.
Also which is on the chopping block? You mean the decidedly better 30% to all that was proposed earlier as part of bastion? Probably because it was deemed to be overpowered. It was more effective than the active tank bonus while providing more buffer than a maxed 10% per level HP bonus since it gave almost the same per layer + being applied to all 3 layers.
I understand that only two of the four resists get a boost, but you've completely ignored my suggestion that people request a modified T2 resist profile to match up faction NPC's. Which would resolve this issue entirely.
I was speaking of the hull bonus on other ships (Prophecy, Drake, etc.) that used to receive 5% resists/level. These bonuses were nerfed because of how much more powerful they were when compared to local rep bonuses. While these bonuses dropped down to 4% resist/level, they are still on the chopping block to be reduced even further to 3% resist/level if need be to further balance them against local/remote repping.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:It's more likely, given the current place marauders hold, that it's only a small number of people who use them enough to care.
That's part of what CCP is trying to change by rebalancing the ship. |
|

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 03:47:00 -
[3551] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:-I'm not claiming it makes the hulls incomplete I'm saying that trading the local rep bonus for the T2 resists makes 2 of these hulls noticeably worse at PvE than the other two because they have to make a trade-off that the other two do not.
- Lets see, Blockade, ____ Extravaganza, Worlds Collide, Cargo Delivery is pretty nasty due to the neuting, and there's a good number of others.
Remember, my claim was not that ANY T1 battleship couldn't tank missions, it was that most can't. There's a reason the Raven and Dominix are most of what you hear about for T1 mission ships in PvE circles. The Dominix relies on either 2-3 repair modules or a MJD and the Raven relies on burning down incomming damage before it can either get in range or break your tank and that strategy may still require warp-outs for some missions.
Hence my suggestion of requesting a modified T2 profile for marauders.
Every single T1 BS hull can not only tank L4 missions, they can complete them in reasonable time as well. You can do it all with T2 modules too.
Cade Windstalker wrote:The ability to juggle tank mods due to T2 resists only applies if you're facing rats that deal the type of damage your T2 resists are bonused toward. As my previous post points out the vast majority of mission damage is Kinetic and Thermal and both Gallente and Caldari T2 hulls get bonuses against both. This means that no matter what rats they're going against they'll be able to take advantage of at least part of their bonus and against most rats they can take advantage of the full bonus. They also don't have to make a trade-off between resisting damage better and dealing damage better since their resist profiles give them a buff against the rats that they deal the best damage against already.
For Amarr and Minmattar however you have secondary bonuses to Kinetic and Thermal respectively which are smaller than their primary bonus by a good margin. On top of this the rats that they deal the best damage against don't deal either of the types they're bonused toward.
This means that overall with the loss of the 7.5% per level local tank bonus they are in a worse state as mission ships than they are on TQ currently since they now have to make a trade-off that the other two do not in addition to losing overall repair power.
I realize you were responding to that comment(s) directly, but again that's the reason for my suggestion of a modified resist profile from the standard T2 racial profile to better match faction NPC's.
Cade Windstalker wrote:The damage profile on Amarr ships is only an issue if it forces you to choose between things you can tank effectively and things you can deal damage to effectively.
In PvP this isn't much of an issue since most people tend to be omni-tanked anyway and Thermal is a good damage type to deal and EM tends to be one of the lower resistances on at least armored tanked ships post hole patching.
Which for Amarr ships outside of Amarr space is nearly everything. When looking at ship effectiveness against each rat type, Amarr ships are effective against the fewest number of rats compared to the other three races.
Cade Windstalker wrote:Tweaking resists to match mission rats hurts the ships in PvP. I'm not advocating for the T2 resists to go away or for the resist profile to change, I'm advocating for a local repair bonus on the hulls, preferably rather than on the Bastion module since having one on each seems to be a bit problematic.
I have to disagree. With every other T2 resist profile it only takes 2 tank mods to bring all resists past 60%. Which as you mentioned previously though, brings up the concern of potentially massive EHP for these ships. However, it's much easier to make a real T2 profile work well in PvP regardless of how the resists are spread out.
I guess I'm still trying to figure out why you want a rep bonus over appropriate T2 resists.
Cade Windstalker wrote:Yes, however it partly survived this change because another ship using the same skill requirements dropped into the slot it used to occupy with very little fuss.
Since the Marauders only have one ship per race under this skill it makes sense for them to keep their role and niche rather than seeing a drastic shift. If you want a ship for another role it should go under another skill.
You'll also note that the 50+ pages before that were a different set of "same people" where as there's been many new faces against the current proposal.
I'm not exactly sure the Abaddon qualifies as cheap DPS, but yes it did fill in the role.
After going over more of the comments from the rest of the thread though, I'm seeing fewer and fewer reasons to even bother re-balancing marauders. It seems that PvE pilots want faction ship DPS with better damage projection/application. While the only PvP'ers that seem to care want the mini-dreads for high-sec wardecs or gate camping. At this point I'm starting to feel that it'd just be better off leaving them as PvE only ships with a few minor tweaks to make them a bit more unique from each other. |

Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 03:49:00 -
[3552] - Quote
I see two problems, One: We still have no idea if any of the bonuses are subject to stacking penalties. Two: This ship will still die in a fire in 90% of PVP applications because its a shiny and shiney stuff attracts gankers like flies to poop. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
184
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 03:55:00 -
[3553] - Quote
Maybe it would be easier to start by getting a consensus of the changes we DO like... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
730
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 03:56:00 -
[3554] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:It's irrelevant where the 50% resist originates from as it's still part of the T2 resist profile and it's application works exactly the same as the other resists. Likewise, you've ignored my suggestion that the T2 profile is modified to match faction NPC's. Bringing the two boosted resists to where they need to be. It's not irrelevant because of function, it's irrelevant because it's in no way augmented from base and as such in no way represents any improvement since there quite realistically is none. And no, I didn't ignore anything, else your next portion of the post wouldn't exist since it tries to counter a comment I made about what you said I ignored.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:It's hardly beyond the scope as the biggest issue everyone seems to have with dropping the rep bonus for a T2 resist profile is that the default racial profile is incompatible with faction NPC's. Therefore requesting a modified T2 resist profile to better match up with faction NPC's makes sense as it would end up providing a stronger tank than the current rep bonus for these ships in their home systems.
I understand that only two of the four resists get a boost, but you've completely ignored my suggestion that people request a modified T2 resist profile to match up faction NPC's. Which would resolve this issue entirely. It was beyond the scope as stated, which was modifying T2 resist. The scope of this proposal was a single line of T2 ships, which isn't anywhere close to a proper justification for a rewrite of that rule. Nor does it necessarily make sense for these to be a strong outlier there. It needs to be a stronger case than "because people want it." Unfortunately I can't think of a case I could see as legitimate here. And you have yet to present one.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:I was speaking of the hull bonus on other ships (Prophecy, Drake, etc.) that used to receive 5% resists/level. These bonuses were nerfed because of how much more powerful they were when compared to local rep bonuses. While these bonuses dropped down to 4% resist/level, they are still on the chopping block to be reduced even further to 3% resist/level if need be to further balance them against local/remote repping. I would have no objection to that. I'd like it actually. I haven't heard anything about further reductions though since the possibility was left open when the reduction to 4% was announced. I haven't seen anything that suggest it's being pursued, but then, I haven't really looked.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:That's part of what CCP is trying to change by rebalancing the ship. And hopefully they will, but when for most marauders are irrelevant and will likely remain so as proposed,
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 05:01:00 -
[3555] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
With four tracking computers on 800mm Autocannons with Barrage you end up with an absolutely ticklish 200 DPS at 150km and at 100km you're still only getting ~400 DPS.
This is hardly game-breaking for the reasons I've already mentioned. You're not going to out-DPS short range ships and you're going to need some amount of tackle down at the gate to hold things in place or they're just going to either burn back to the gate before you can kill anything or warp off. If you're in null they can burn out of your bubbles as well if that's what you were relying on. Overall you would be far better off bringing long-range guns which won't track very well if your enemy gets in close.
Taking the example of the Vargur, with 1400mm Artillery I'm getting 150-250 more DPS depending on ammo and which range you're talking about. with the added bonus of being able to alpha-strike soft targets.
A Cruiser with any sort of decent tank and remote assistance should be able to weather ~1000 DPS pretty easily, at 2000 you'd better have at least two dedicated logistics but you're still going to be able to burn back to gate if there's no tackle on-grid.
Never mind that this completely assumes that your enemy jumped a cruiser gang into your perched Battleship gate-camp without a plan to deal with them. If they're doing that you can do the same thing with Maelstroms or almost any other long-range weapons platform for less money and get the same result.
Also you don't tend to perch your artillery 150km off the gate unless you've got a lot of bubbles in place because you're very susceptible to on-grid warps at that range or anything within ~10km of it.
this is false, with two TC's (scripted) and 2 TE (t2) barrage gives me a falloff of 112 km (i belive i'm using a range implant also so say 108-110 somewhere * random numb ri pulled out my backside for not knowing which range implant i have*, and you are right about the 200 dps ish at that range, but that's what i'm aiming for - this isn't going to be one ship but several so i can focus fire and add up the several ships i'm using to get the 1k dps i need reasonably easily)
as i said, minmatar fight at falloff x 1.5 so i have an effective range of (112 km + 56 km) ~ and deal 50% damage at 100km, 150km is more than reasonable for autocannons - which is why 1200mm vargurs don't get seen much, 800's seem to do better at the same ranges on fire rate alone =/ - as for 1400's the current iteration's PG makes 1400's near impossible (80% PG to just fit t2 800mm's) - post changes 1400's become much more viable but if i can get 100km falloff with autocannons what's the artillery gonna look like? -.- ( this is my vargur on TQ right now, and the range bonuses aren't being changed...) see why i am concerned?
[edit]
I love the fact the minmatar fight with such awesome falloff curves i really do, but it is very very powerful for keeping yourself well out of harm's way while killing something (and why minmatar do so well in PVP (or have done) - i don't lose damage quickly at all if i'm not in optimal range, i can keep hammering away at your hulls for many times my optimal before you notice a significant damage drop, (it's faster to simply throw off my tracking speed than it is to out range me)
autos fight in falloff, lasers in optimal and hybrids are a very strange half breed of both (which is why the ships with range bonuses tended to be so unpopular, they didn't offer as much as the other races due to 50-50 split base values, 10% of a smaller number is a smaller number (looking at the ferox in particular but eagle suffered too)
[/edit] |

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
406
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 05:51:00 -
[3556] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:autos fight in falloff, lasers in optimal and hybrids are a very strange half breed of both (which is why the ships with range bonuses tended to be so unpopular, they didn't offer as much as the other races due to 50-50 split base values, 10% of a smaller number is a smaller number (looking at the ferox in particular but eagle suffered too)
You have to understand though that Caldari ships were designed with railguns in mind and railgun optimals start with massive range advantage to begin with. For instance, base Tachyon Beam II is 66 + 25 (33+24 with IN MF), whereas base Railgun is 72 + 30 (36 + 30 with CN AM). Were it not for pathetic damage on medium rails, Ferox and Eagle wouldn't be all that bad, as optimal means you can use closer range ammo for given distance, increasing dps at that point. One ship that takes great advantage of this is the Naga, which has both the damage and the optimal range increase. As such, it can project higher damage for given distance (same as Rokh) compared to ships with just the damage bonus, making it a superior sniper.
Tldr: optimal isn't as bad as people call it to be. It's just that both Eagle and Ferox were bad hulls coupled with a bad weapon system. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
197
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 05:59:00 -
[3557] - Quote
Barbie D0ll wrote:I see two problems, One: We still have no idea if any of the bonuses are subject to stacking penalties. Two: This ship will still die in a fire in 90% of PVP applications because its a shiny and shiney stuff attracts gankers like flies to poop.
1. Yes we do, the range bonuses are stacking penalized. A quick check of Ytterbium's math on the example Kronos confirms this.
2. Yes, but not everyone can bring gankers and if you're deploying something like this you're either prepared to deal with that eventuality, you don't care, or you're an idiot. None of the above factor into balance.
Wedgetail wrote: this is false, with two TC's (scripted) and 2 TE (t2) barrage gives me a falloff of 112 km (i belive i'm using a range implant also so say 108-110 somewhere * random numb ri pulled out my backside for not knowing which range implant i have*, and you are right about the 200 dps ish at that range, but that's what i'm aiming for - this isn't going to be one ship but several so i can focus fire and add up the several ships i'm using to get the 1k dps i need reasonably easily)
as i said, minmatar fight at falloff x 1.5 so i have an effective range of (112 km + 56 km) ~ and deal 50% damage at 100km, 150km is more than reasonable for autocannons - which is why 1200mm vargurs don't get seen much, 800's seem to do better at the same ranges on fire rate alone =/ - as for 1400's the current iteration's PG makes 1400's near impossible (80% PG to just fit t2 800mm's) - post changes 1400's become much more viable but if i can get 100km falloff with autocannons what's the artillery gonna look like? -.- ( this is my vargur on TQ right now, and the range bonuses aren't being changed...) see why i am concerned?
No, not really. That's really pathetic DPS to get out of 5 ships, especially when this completely ignores their tanking potential and any ship getting on top of them will likely be able to tear them apart due to the range focused setup and lack of local support ships. You'd do far better with short-range guns having them 50km off the gate, which puts them in-range of support and less susceptible to warp-ins since your short-range tackle on the gate will have an easier time burning to you and you'll have an easier time supporting them.
Or even better, long range guns with short-range ammo 50km off the gate, where they're likely doing full damage and maybe contributing some decent actual DPS to the fight instead of tickling things...
Seriously, fighting at Optimal +1.5*falloff is not a good idea, 200DPS from a Battleship is pretty pathetic and says you should have positioned your ships closer. Being able to deal damage at that range is great, setting up to do so from the start is asking to get your fleet whelped.
Plus, as I said you can do all of this for cheaper with 5 Maelstroms and get the same effect.
Also Bastion doesn't really figure into the range since the Bastion module is stacking penalized for its range bonuses. (as I've said several times).
Essentially there is nothing in your proposed strategy that isn't already more viable with other ships for less ISK and SP investment on the part of the participants.
The reason it's not done too often is because to be an effective strategy it essentially relies on you having a superior force to whatever is coming through the gate. The only advantage is the ability to save the perch ships easily and instantly if something too nasty to handle does come through and if you're deploying Marauders in that position then you're probably not strapped for cash.
Wedgetail wrote: [edit]
I love the fact the minmatar fight with such awesome falloff curves i really do, but it is very very powerful for keeping yourself well out of harm's way while killing something (and why minmatar do so well in PVP (or have done) - i don't lose damage quickly at all if i'm not in optimal range, i can keep hammering away at your hulls for many times my optimal before you notice a significant damage drop, (it's faster to simply throw off my tracking speed than it is to out range me)
autos fight in falloff, lasers in optimal and hybrids are a very strange half breed of both (which is why the ships with range bonuses tended to be so unpopular, they didn't offer as much as the other races due to 50-50 split base values, 10% of a smaller number is a smaller number (looking at the ferox in particular but eagle suffered too)
[/edit]
Actually Blasters tend to have more falloff and Railguns tend to have more optimal, but because of how their ammo ranges spread out you can get pretty good use out of either an optimal or a falloff bonus (though I'm much more a fan of the Optimal bonuses since they let you apply your full damage at some truly absurd ranges).
The old Merlin for example was an absolute terror in frigate fights in the hands of an experienced pilot with good bookmarks because it could whittle you down from longer range than most other frigates could touch, kite away and warp back in and then use its tank to go in and tackle for the kill. You can do similar things with a lot of smaller range focused ships.
The Vulture and Eagle can both hit some interesting ranges with Blasters and can project damage hilariously far with rails for example, and Railguns in general of various sizes out-DPS Artillery at long range at the expense of fairly low Alpha but making up for it with high fire-rate. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
197
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 06:06:00 -
[3558] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:You have to understand though that Caldari ships were designed with railguns in mind and railgun optimals start with massive range advantage to begin with. For instance, base Tachyon Beam II is 66 + 24 (33+24 with IN MF), whereas base Railgun is 72 + 30 (36 + 30 with CN AM). Were it not for pathetic damage on medium rails, Ferox and Eagle wouldn't be all that bad, as optimal means you can use closer range ammo for given distance, increasing dps at that point. One ship that takes great advantage of this is the Naga, which has both the damage and the optimal range increase. As such, it can project higher damage for given distance (same as Rokh) compared to ships with just the damage bonus, making it a superior sniper.
Tldr: optimal isn't as bad as people call it to be. It's just that both Eagle and Ferox were bad hulls coupled with a bad weapon system.
You should take another look at medium rails post-buff. They've got some pretty decent DPS now. A quick thrown together Ferox fit with one TC and three mag-stabs is showing 540 DPS at 31+20 with Navy Antimatter.
Considering the same fit get 589 with Blasters and Navy Antimatter I'd say they're definitely worth a second look.
Also a combination of tank+range isn't to be under-estimated either. The Rokh has seen entire fleet comps built around it where as two years ago it was the "well you have Hybrids and can't do a Maelstrom yet" ship of Mael fleets. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
197
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 06:20:00 -
[3559] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Hence my suggestion of requesting a modified T2 profile for marauders.
Every single T1 BS hull can not only tank L4 missions, they can complete them in reasonable time as well. You can do it all with T2 modules too.
Which would **** off anyone hoping to use this hull for PvP since the T2 profiles for the Minmattar and Amarr are more PvP friendly as they are now, plus better for incursions. No one but you is asking for this, the rest of us want the local repair bonus back on the hulls, either as a Role Bonus or at the expense of the web bonus.
No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:I have to disagree. With every other T2 resist profile it only takes 2 tank mods to bring all resists past 60%. Which as you mentioned previously though, brings up the concern of potentially massive EHP for these ships. However, it's much easier to make a real T2 profile work well in PvP regardless of how the resists are spread out.
I guess I'm still trying to figure out why you want a rep bonus over appropriate T2 resists.
Generally the quoted "magic number" for a strong tank is 70% resists, especially for missions and other forms of PvE. The higher you can get it though the better. 60% doesn't generally cut it.
Also I have never stated a desire to see the T2 resists removed, however if it's a choice between the repair bonus and full T2 resists I'll take the repair bonus on something that's supposed to be a mission focused ship because it's more useful for missions.
What I, and others, don't want is to be forced to fit the Bastion Module and mission in a very narrow and specific way with this hull.
Wolfgang Achari wrote:I'm not exactly sure the Abaddon qualifies as cheap DPS, but yes it did fill in the role.
After going over more of the comments from the rest of the thread though, I'm seeing fewer and fewer reasons to even bother re-balancing marauders. It seems that PvE pilots want faction ship DPS with better damage projection/application. While the only PvP'ers that seem to care want the mini-dreads for high-sec wardecs or gate camping. At this point I'm starting to feel that it'd just be better off leaving them as PvE only ships with a few minor tweaks to make them a bit more unique from each other.
None of these hulls qualify as cheap anymore since they've had their minerals costs balanced out. I'm referring to the ship's actual role from its bonuses, not the oddly specific "cheap DPS" role you stated it as having.
Which is still a re-balance. As things stand they're still mostly over-shadowed by Pirate Battleships, even in missions. Plus they lack an overall role within the various ship classes, they just have one tiny little niche that they're half crowded out of by Pirate and Navy Battleships.
Beyond that everything in the old ship rebalancing dev-blog and Ytterbium's post at the start of this thread apply. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 06:29:00 -
[3560] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You should take another look at medium rails post-buff. They've got some pretty decent DPS now. A quick thrown together Ferox fit with one TC and three mag-stabs is showing 540 DPS at 31+20 with Navy Antimatter.
Considering the same fit get 589 with Blasters and Navy Antimatter I'd say they're definitely worth a second look.
Also a combination of tank+range isn't to be under-estimated either. The Rokh has seen entire fleet comps built around it where as two years ago it was the "well you have Hybrids and can't do a Maelstrom yet" ship of Mael fleets.
yes it has, my argument is based around close range sets though, so rails do not compare with autos, blasters do - truth in that blasters have been recently fixed, rails not so much (though they are much better i am agreed)
and the danger with the 200dps at 150 km is this: what's going to happen as you try to get closer?
unlike with artillery where my dps is constant and actually drops as you get closer, with autocannons it INCREASES, the more you try to approach, the more painful it gets. (i know a few people that'll laugh at the irony of me saying that XD ) the only reason this is fine now is cuz of ECM vulnerability
and if it looks like you're not going to die as you approach, i have plenty of room to simply pack up and leave - because why will i sit there and die in an 800 mil isk ship when i don't have to? - i'm not using bastion at these ranges (unless forced to by EWAR) i don't need to - so i'm more than free to move, more than free to use logi and RR - i do have incredibly low EHP tank though, so dealing with howitzers and rails will be an instant run reaction from this group - and that's normal for most dps loadouts.
hell if i really wanted, i can carry 1 TC grab a MJD and sit at 110 km and if it looks like i can win simply by jumping right in and blaping people i'll do that instead, i will never need to risk myself needlessly because my minimum performance is high enough to let me fight that way.
i don't want mechanics that promote easily being able to run away, or to fight without real risk, i want mechanics that force me to risk something in order to get what i want - if i can sit there at range and loose a few cruisers to kill a few of theirs then leave, i'm going to do it, eve gang PVP is bait lure and trap for hours and then 10 minutes of combat, and the bait and lures now are getting so obvious that most don't even bother if there's so much of a hint of them -.- avoid the dangerous (likely to lose) fight first and do something else is the primary response of the times
|
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 06:58:00 -
[3561] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote: [snip for character limit] I did point out back at the time ( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=834365&page=15#424) the absurdity of removing 90% webs from the slow platforms with sub 10km optimal range and how this equated to a 400% increase in target transversal GÇô in that particular test a zero fit stabber (no modules) orbiting a Ion II Megathron with impunity GÇô with no corresponding increase in tracking. Fundamentally this is down to a flaw in the tracking formula (doesnGÇÖt account for actual target size up close) but that is never going to get fixed. As to my Frigate example, you completely forgot a crucial variable; scan resolution GÇô by the time the Battleship has the frigate locked up from a typical gate encounter, if it is appropriately AB fit to counter said blaster Battleship it will be sufficiently close to mitigate the speed drop. If he has double webs? (Vindi - 5 mids, doesnGÇÖt help Kronos) Well donGÇÖt fight him on his terms, itGÇÖs really quite straightforwardGǪ. Fundamentally Battleship-sized blaster platforms were shafted by the 2008 speed changes and have never recovered and I speak as someone who has roughly half his career kills flying a blaster Megathron solo. CCP momentarily recognised this when they re-worked Serpentis hulls back in 2009, getting rid of the MWD cap bonus for the only blaster related bonus to make sense *drum roll*GǪ. 90% webs. DonGÇÖt take it off the last viable solo/very small gang pure Gallente blaster Battleship. First off, the AB buff works both ways, helping Blaster boats as well as their enemies, so does the MWD/scram changes. With a web and a scram an enemy with a MWD is going to have a hard time pulling range on a Blaster ship. You are of-course entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see any good justification for a system that completely destroyed smaller ships if they get within web-range and reduced combat to a nearly static "I shoot then you shoot" scenario. I was curious about your claims of "orbiting with impunity" so I decided to take a fairly stock Megathron fit and throw it against, as you said, a purely blank Stabber (with all 5s on both). This was the result with Neutrons on the Megathron and one T2 web. As for your claim that a frigate can get in close enough to mitigate this, this is only true right up until that web turns on. At this point the Battleship is actually moving faster than the ABing frigate (and he's certainly not going to be MWDing at that range either because he's scrammed or because it would kill his tracking and the sig bloom would kill him). This means that the Battleship can now pull range on the frigate and reduce the traversal to almost nothing, and that's without even turning on a prop-mod. As for the dual web scenario, anything that makes the answer "well you can't engage that ship with an entire ship class" is bad balancing. Battleships are supposed to be at least somewhat vulnerable to smaller hulls due to their speed and maneuverability. This is why smaller hulls do less damage and have less HP. If you can completely negate that advantage then there's a balance problem since no other battleship can do that. Back in 2009 they also created one of the single most powerful hulls in the game that's proceeded to over-shadow every other T1 and T2 hybrids platform with its raw DPS and web bonus. It's even generally considered flat better than many ships that don't use the same weapons system because that web bonus makes it essentially immune to smaller ships getting under its guns and if they pull range then they're easier to track. Overall you're just sounding like a bitter-vet whose favorite OP toy got taken away.  Firstly (no surprise) your EFT plot demonstrates the exact same thing as my actual testing from the linked page (3 'wrecking hits', 9 'barely scratches' 2 'lightly hits' out of 856 shots) - your plot demonstrates essentially 0 dps at 1 - 1.5km, rising to a staggering 20 dps at 2km. Now in my testing (back then) I threw in every single piece of maneuvering you could pull to minimise transversal (apologies I forgot that in the testing for the second test, the stabber had a web). Granted you can achieve a little more these days with the buff to agility, but nothing to change the overall picture drastically.
Secondly in the frigate example, you've missed off another key point - why is the Battleship not webbed? ( AB frigate: 3 mids, web/scram/AB). For the dual web scenario (again Kronos only have four mids - losing one for a second web compromises you in other areas i.e. capacitor) move away from a 1 v 1 scenario to 2 v 1 and it's simple to fight a big blaster boat in web range, even with 90% webs. Vindicator? Well, true you can fit dual webs, but why on earth would you be trying to solo something like that in a Frigate? And if you aren't solo, why are you not tackling at long point range?
In general terms though, the whole point back then (and today with the two remaining 90% platforms) was that if you were alone, you kited the big blaster boat outside of web range, which was simple as they are ultimately still a slow moving Battleship hull, and if there was more than one of you in a frigate it was (and is) simple to de-fang the thing...
'Niche' PvP application
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

J3ster
Arke Battalion
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:01:00 -
[3562] - Quote
I can no longer sit back and not give my feedback here...
CCP i do hope you read this.
There are a lot of posts in here from pilots who cannot yet fly Marauders, and also from pilots who are solely keen on seeing marauders being twisted into some sort of PVP ultra magnus freekin deathstar.. I'm worried the posts from current day / experienced marauder pilots are being drowned out by the nonsense.
I've been a Kronos pilot for many, many years, and it is still my main ship i use for anything PVE. As its always been, the marauder class's main purpose has been for PVE.... I beg you, please do not break this in an attempt to make it something which is usable in a handful of PVP situations, while nerfing it completely for PVE use.
Removing web bonus from the Kronos: You will find most PVE pilots dont even use webs, marauders are sniping boats (especially the kronos), 2x tracking computers with both types of scripts and decent skills can still pop incoming frigates as close as 20kms.. So loosing a web bonus doesn't bother me a great deal.
People who are saying to remove the so called useless tractor beam bonus: Sure, we can always dock up and switch to a Noctis... but when your deep in low sec or a WH.. this is not a luxury you always have. And now with the thrown in bonus of the MJD, the 40km range of T2 tractors really needs improving if anything- not to be removed.. Maybe give tractor range a boost whilst in bastion mode? Hell... most PVE pilots would die for a salvage access retrieval bonus over any of this other stuff.
Original +30% bastion boost vs T2 resists: Im split 2 ways about this.. The initial +30% sounded awesome, and made me excited about bastion mode. But the T2 resists would be handy when not in bastion.
Removal of repair bonus: Please do not do this!! This will completely defeat the purpose for the maruader being originally intended for PVE... Spare a thought for all the PVE pilots who have been flying these ships for years, and who have already put the time and effort into training the ship to use for specific purposes.
Bastion mode does sound cool, but i cant say i'm a fan of the constant MJD'ing around the place to avoid being killed because my local repper is now crap.. oh.. and then not being able to salvage anything without having to MJD all over the place again.
I hope you consider that if you break these ships for PVE, your PVE player base who have flown these for years will not be happy.. |

J3ster
Arke Battalion
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:16:00 -
[3563] - Quote
Forgot to mention the drone bay changes...
This is a big one.. seriously. For lvl 5s / incursions and fleet based PVE, its incredibly handy to carry spare drones, and or remote repair drones to heal your fleet mates if your logi gets popped or even if you don't have a logi.
Making the drone bay smaller will greatly affect the ships ability to be "Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments" which is the current description. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
783
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:43:00 -
[3564] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:...Niche' PvP application Sounds like you are unhappy with bigger blaster boats having to occupy the same niche as ditto laser boats even though you are much better off (tracking, mids, drones). Everything applies in equal measure to laser platforms, except they don't have the luxury to even try to hit the enemy as that will cap them out in short order so they get to go AFK or spam whatever channels they have with SOS's .
Readily available 90% webs were an atrocity, but they did fit nicely on the mission whoring boats. With the Marauders getting more of a PvP tint I am on the fence however, current thinking is that reduced power is appropriate until such time that links come on-grid so one does not run into 20km 90% webs at every turn since Links + Heat breaks them in spectacular fashion .. will still be so with links on-grid but at least one will know what's in store beforehand
Speaking of: Why not change the Interdiction link web range bonus to a strength (5-10% at max skills) ditto? With skirmish links being restricted to Gallente/Minmatar and their recons having tackle range bonuses to start with, the 'even MOAR!' range seems a bit superfluous. Only problems with such a change that I can see is that in the small/medium gang fights the necessity of clearing links ASAP would increase in urgency and that AHAC gangs would require a bit more skill to pull off in sticky (webs, get it? ) engagements. |

J3ster
Arke Battalion
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:49:00 -
[3565] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.
Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.
I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.
That's probably one of the better ideas so far. would make a fleet of 2 or 3 marauders a worthy addition to an incursion fleet
|

Critical Issue
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 09:09:00 -
[3566] - Quote
This thread is still alive ?
I said we need a Juggernaut. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 09:09:00 -
[3567] - Quote
J3ster wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.
Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.
I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities. That's probably one of the better ideas so far. would make a fleet of 2 or 3 marauders a worthy addition to an incursion fleet
For the 200 dudes that still do incisions.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 09:27:00 -
[3568] - Quote
Critical Issue wrote:I said we need a Juggernaut.
I second that. Can it be on a Rokh hull? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
407
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 09:34:00 -
[3569] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:You should take another look at medium rails post-buff. They've got some pretty decent DPS now. A quick thrown together Ferox fit with one TC and three mag-stabs is showing 540 DPS at 31+20 with Navy Antimatter..
Sorry for the confusion, I ment before the buff, as I haven't flown either after it. Originally I had my paragraph written as past tense, but as I edited that sentence I seem to have removed that. I edited it again to clarify that I'm referring to medium rails before 1.1. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 09:39:00 -
[3570] - Quote
Onictus wrote:J3ster wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.
Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.
I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".
Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities. That's probably one of the better ideas so far. would make a fleet of 2 or 3 marauders a worthy addition to an incursion fleet For the 200 dudes that still do incisions.
Some day I would like to be the 201st dude just for fun, but now I'm more interested in their WH Anomaly application.
Just noticed CCP want's to further nerf +4% resist bonus. Because it's to strong. Which ships have those bonuses? Amarr and Caldari. Are they that good at PvP?
Also CCP want's to buff local repair. Which ships have those bonuses? Gallente and Minamatar. Are they bad in PvP?
So it's basicaly a nerf to Amarr and Caldari ships which are not that great at PvP and buff to Gallente and Minamatar which are dominant reces in PvP.
In AT 13 it was allready all-Gallente... are CCP staff secretly Gallentians? |
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
126
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:42:00 -
[3571] - Quote
Yeah the Rokh and Abaddon are awesome PvP Ships.
PS: And the Gallente Ships do have some Major drawbacks in large Fleets... |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:46:00 -
[3572] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Yeah the Rokh and Abaddon are awesome PvP Ships.
PS: And the Gallente Ships do have some Major backdraws in large Fleets...
As do rokh and baddon. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:51:00 -
[3573] - Quote
Critical Issue wrote:This thread is still alive ?
I said we need a Juggernaut.
Don't worry, well be home by Christmas. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
126
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:56:00 -
[3574] - Quote
The only Thing i really admit is that CCP buff brawling overall, maybe because it brings more Action into our Spreadsheet, i dunno.
But sure that means it pushes the already Good Blaster and Gallente seems pretty OP but, with some letdowns like bad resistance pattern, odd 50/50 Optimal+Falloff, Them/Kin Damage only, very High Signature, kinda low speed and bonuses to activ tanking i think they do have some pretty "Good" disadventages. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:20:00 -
[3575] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:The only Thing i really admit is that CCP buff brawling overall, maybe because it brings more Action into our Spreadsheet, i dunno.
But sure that means it pushes the already Good Blaster and Gallente seems pretty OP but, with some letdowns like bad resistance pattern, odd 50/50 Optimal+Falloff, Them/Kin Damage only, very High Signature, kinda low speed and bonuses to activ tanking i think they do have some pretty "Good" disadventages.
I fully agree. I really wish gallentian pilots have thier 7,5 rep bonus replaced with something that buffs both acticve and pssive tanking. However since Gallente relly on thier dps and not tank - contrary to amarr, I fear that one day Gallente will be better at both tanking and dps (the way it seems to be going). |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
389
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:27:00 -
[3576] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Critical Issue wrote:This thread is still alive ?
I said we need a Juggernaut. Don't worry, well be home by Christmas.
Doctor Who? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:44:00 -
[3577] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Critical Issue wrote:This thread is still alive ?
I said we need a Juggernaut. Don't worry, well be home by Christmas. Doctor Who? 1st Battalion of the Mid-Kent Volunteers 1914 If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
353
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:47:00 -
[3578] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:The only Thing i really admit is that CCP buff brawling overall, maybe because it brings more Action into our Spreadsheet, i dunno.
But sure that means it pushes the already Good Blaster and Gallente seems pretty OP but, with some letdowns like bad resistance pattern, odd 50/50 Optimal+Falloff, Them/Kin Damage only, very High Signature, kinda low speed and bonuses to activ tanking i think they do have some pretty "Good" disadventages. I fully agree. I really wish gallentian pilots have thier 7,5 rep bonus replaced with something that buffs both acticve and pssive tanking. However since Gallente relly on thier dps and not tank - contrary to amarr, I fear that one day Gallente will be better at both tanking and dps (the way it seems to be going).
If you compare 2 equivalently fitted ships, the hyperion and abaddon, you find that the gallente ship self-repairs about 10% better than the amarr, but the amarr ship has 10% more EHP and is 10% more efficient at receiving remote repair.
The hyperion does a lot more damage at close range but cannot engage beyond 20km. The abaddon does less damage but can engage out to about 47km - about twice as far.
I chose these 2 ships because they have similar slot layouts.
For solo brawling you'd want the hyperion - if there are 2 of you, it's probably too close to call. If there are 3 or more of you, I think you'd want the abaddon in preference to the hyperion.
It seems fairly balanced to me. I use a hyperion for pvp but the number of situations in which it is better than an amarr ship are quite few - you have to pick your fights.
In gang pvp I'd rather have some amarr ships around me - they're stronger and more versatile.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1223
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:56:00 -
[3579] - Quote
So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Rekon X
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 13:17:00 -
[3580] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:For the love of God stop introducing new skills and modules for no reason and just balance the ships. This Bastion thing will be incredibly OP in niche PvP situations and most PvE situations and incredibly useless the rest of the time.
I tend to agree with this. Give them a little more power grid and cpu for some versatility and leave them alone.
Plugging in a gimmick in an attempt to adapt it to a roll it was never intended for, I don't see that going over.
If this is what you think you need, create another class of ship, minidread.
Nerfing the drone bay locks you into smalls or mediums. How about leaving the drone bay the way it is? |
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 13:30:00 -
[3581] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon?
I hope not
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
63
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 13:49:00 -
[3582] - Quote
Ohhh, don't worry, thers more to come.
Iv got my popcorn ready for the inevitable flood of rage to follow the next version If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Xicho
Damned Yankees Insidious Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 13:51:00 -
[3583] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon?
Are you brain dead? This is an idea for the winter expansion, and a first pass at that.
Be patient. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1225
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:03:00 -
[3584] - Quote
Xicho wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon? Are you brain dead? This is an idea for the winter expansion, and a first pass at that. Be patient.
Actually, we are on the 2nd pass. And with HAC's, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 passes before they showed up on Sisi. Same with command ships. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:36:00 -
[3585] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Xicho wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon? Are you brain dead? This is an idea for the winter expansion, and a first pass at that. Be patient. Actually, we are on the 2nd pass. And with HAC's, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 passes before they showed up on Sisi. Same with command ships.
Do you even READ the thread? THey said they will leave it for a while.. and return at marauders in FUTURE before the expansion. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4608
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:11:00 -
[3586] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Xicho wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon? Are you brain dead? This is an idea for the winter expansion, and a first pass at that. Be patient. Actually, we are on the 2nd pass. And with HAC's, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 passes before they showed up on Sisi. Same with command ships. Traditionally yes, but this time (probably because they are kicking this around early in their development schedule, and because it's pretty revolutionary) they were pretty specific that they had several other viable concepts to bounce off of us before they chose a path. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
387
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:31:00 -
[3587] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Traditionally yes, but this time (probably because they are kicking this around early in their development schedule, and because it's pretty revolutionary) they were pretty specific that they had several other viable concepts to bounce off of us before they chose a path.
I can only hope these other viable concepts they had are in fact more viable than what they've proposed thus far. :\ |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4610
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:40:00 -
[3588] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Traditionally yes, but this time (probably because they are kicking this around early in their development schedule, and because it's pretty revolutionary) they were pretty specific that they had several other viable concepts to bounce off of us before they chose a path.
I can only hope these other viable concepts they had are in fact more viable than what they've proposed thus far. :\ Agreed, although the first one wasn't bad with a few adjustments. I still think there are other options to look at however, same as you. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:57:00 -
[3589] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Aglais wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Traditionally yes, but this time (probably because they are kicking this around early in their development schedule, and because it's pretty revolutionary) they were pretty specific that they had several other viable concepts to bounce off of us before they chose a path.
I can only hope these other viable concepts they had are in fact more viable than what they've proposed thus far. :\ Agreed, although the first one wasn't bad with a few adjustments. I still think there are other options to look at however, same as you. One of the more interesting proposals iv seen was a pretty big resistance to overheating, not immunity so as to leave you the ability to effectively whelp yourself.
I like the idea that the hull would have an incentive to explore the more advanced aspects of flying and beating you up for overreaching If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:58:00 -
[3590] - Quote
That's not to say that I want it, just thought it'd be interesting If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1287
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 16:20:00 -
[3591] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So....CCP...any more comments on this mess, or are these stats now engraved in wet concrete, and we will see them on Sisi soon? I hope not
they should unsticky this thread as both ideas were thrown in the can and they have gone back to theory crafting... dont expect an update for a while. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 16:40:00 -
[3592] - Quote
I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said...
Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull.
I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues.
Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first.
Care to make a wager out of this? :) |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4611
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 16:51:00 -
[3593] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) I always enjoy it when someone effectively says "put your money where your mouth is", and the other person responds with "not a problem".  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
358
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 17:09:00 -
[3594] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :)
what are reasonable completion times? also what skill level are you testing at? What kinds of fits are allowed? (if for the purposes of testing i happen to use an officer mod would that be cheating? Faction ? Meta 4?
My guess is roughly half the Battleships will have to warp out in at least one of the missions, and there will be maybe three battleships that can be considered "effective" for a wide variety of missions.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
452
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 17:10:00 -
[3595] - Quote
Checking in awaiting CCP's newest update. Eager to see their new ideas :) |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 17:52:00 -
[3596] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) I always enjoy it when someone effectively says "put your money where your mouth is", and the other person responds with "not a problem".  Cade " raise "
Wolfgang instacall's "all in"
Ill put 100 mil in if you do the whole thing with t2 mods and let me Watch them ( its not much I know but I'm saving for a paladin, lol) If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Afru Tolm
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 17:59:00 -
[3597] - Quote
Interesting changes and quite complicated to figure out what each ship will be like once they come in.
Personally I fly a Kronos with remote rep Navy Domi on an alt. - average mission I warp in get aggro on Kronos, then warp in Domi set to assist with drones and RR if needed (this almost never needed) My Kronos is fitted with tractors while Domi salvages.
I dont really like the idea of jumping all over the place in 100km bursts...the MJD is not really useful in 90% of missions and im not sure what use this would have in pvp either....perhaps this module needs the jump distance to be adjustable, but it would be awkward and why not just give the ship a simply velocity boost....seems like CCP are trying to force this absurd module on people.
The Bastion module (and pending hull transformations) sounds good to me as long as the marauders keep a decent web and rep bonus outside of the module being active. The ewar resistance will help with a few of the level 4 missions where ewar can completely overwhelm one ship. I have also seen a lot of people saying they dont use a web....this is one of the most helpful things on a maurader, it lets you kill anything bigger than a frigate with long range weapons no matter how close while letting your light drones kill everything frigate sized (this also makes the 50m3 drone bay very workable)
One thing I can see happening is newer players getting overwhelmed in a mission, going into bastion mode and being stuck in place and loosing their ship. If mauraders could even RR each other this would be much better for helping new players (i think i read this suggestion somewhere)
another option would be to make them only a percentage immune to ewar or if each marauder is immune to its own races ewar (so it can mission effectively in the correct space) or perhaps a choice of scripts, which once loaded into the bastion module which makes you immune to only one/two type(s) of ewar for 60 seconds while the module runs. this way RR can be allowed (if only a %age of normal effectiveness) and the opposing fleet would need to dynamically change ewar types - this could make for some interesting pvp and still allow pve immunity.
At current the ship feels rushed with the price tag, insurance and remote rep situation making it largely useless for pvp and incursions.
However you look at it, it needs work (as you can tell from the number of posts)
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1820
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 18:41:00 -
[3598] - Quote
Ideally, the Bastion + MJD should allow the Marauder class to fit two roles in PvE:
- medium to high passive tanking, high mobility and increased range (standard mode) - medium to high active tanking, null mobility and increased DPS (bastion mode)
As damage is already bonused, the logical bonus should be to damage application & should be a bastion bonus (not a module based bonus).
That's what I wish to get from the ISK+SP invested in what now are not-so-useful expensive toys.
As for PvP... that's not their primary use ATM, neither I am sure they could have a role with their price + SP requirements. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

vil3
Broham and Associates GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 18:56:00 -
[3599] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) I always enjoy it when someone effectively says "put your money where your mouth is", and the other person responds with "not a problem".  Cade " raise " Wolfgang instacall's "all in" Ill put 200 mil in if you do the whole thing with t2 mods and let me Watch them ( its not much I know but I'm saving for a paladin, lol)
200M from me aswell though id ask you maby announce the times and do a twitch cast of it |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:08:00 -
[3600] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) what are reasonable completion times? also what skill level are you testing at? What kinds of fits are allowed? (if for the purposes of testing i happen to use an officer mod would that be cheating? Faction ? Meta 4? My guess is roughly half the Battleships will have to warp out in at least one of the missions, and there will be maybe three battleships that can be considered "effective" for a wide variety of missions.
Good question. If someone has a database of completion times that we can use as a standard, that would be swell. Otherwise I'll see what I can do to get some quick averages. I will probably do a few trial runs to get an idea of how much time I'm going to need as I'm going to try and do the missions back to back. I will be skipping courier missions.
This toon has 100m+ SP, not all related skills are at V but a good chunk of them are.
I am going to make it a bit more challenging and limit the fits to T1/T2/Meta modules. Faction charges, implants, nanite repair paste, and combat boosters* are fair game. I won't be using off-grid boosts, fleet window will be visible as proof.
I'll also be using out of game tools to appropriately prepare for and run the missions just as anyone else can. No mission will be blitzed and I'll make a reasonable effort to obtain keys for bonus rooms. I have no idea what my standings are, but I'm going to try to run the missions in the appropriate faction space for the ship.
Since warping out will count as a failure for the ship, I will not be warping out.
I'm interpreting "Most of the ships" as any amount greater than 50%. So to complete the challenge, I will need to successfully run 10 missions without warping out a single time in at least seven of the twelve T1 hulls. Once I have a metric for reasonable completion times, I will be able to compare those as well to determine if I successfully completed that portion of the challenge.
Did I miss anything?
With some luck I won't be kicked from my corp for doing this. 
*I can use combat boosters at any time. If I have not yet requested the first mission out of the ten, I can consume boosters until I get favorable results. If I wait for a combat booster to expire after requesting the first mission, the wait time will be added to the mission time clock. This applies as well if I can't do the missions back to back. For example, if I stop after the fourth mission, I can't consume boosters until I get favorable results before requesting/starting the fifth.
*Edit* Alliance/Corp ops will take precedence over this challenge. So if a ping goes out and I need to abandon a mission, I will restart the mission after DT has passed. |
|

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:11:00 -
[3601] - Quote
vil3 wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) I always enjoy it when someone effectively says "put your money where your mouth is", and the other person responds with "not a problem".  Cade " raise " Wolfgang instacall's "all in" Ill put 200 mil in if you do the whole thing with t2 mods and let me Watch them ( its not much I know but I'm saving for a paladin, lol) 200M from me aswell though id ask you maby announce the times and do a twitch cast of it
Haven't done any casting, but I'll look into it. Regardless, I'll try to remember to create an in-game chat channel to post the videos to at the very least. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:13:00 -
[3602] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) what are reasonable completion times? also what skill level are you testing at? What kinds of fits are allowed? (if for the purposes of testing i happen to use an officer mod would that be cheating? Faction ? Meta 4? My guess is roughly half the Battleships will have to warp out in at least one of the missions, and there will be maybe three battleships that can be considered "effective" for a wide variety of missions. Good question. If someone has a database of completion times that we can use as a standard, that would be swell. Otherwise I'll see what I can do to get some quick averages. I will probably do a few trial runs to get an idea of how much time I'm going to need as I'm going to try and do the missions back to back. I will be skipping courier missions. This toon has 100m+ SP, not all related skills are at V but a good chunk of them are. I am going to make it a bit more challenging and limit the fits to T1/T2/Meta modules. Faction charges, implants, nanite repair paste, and combat boosters* are fair game. I won't be using off-grid boosts, fleet window will be visible as proof. I'll also be using out of game tools to appropriately prepare for and run the missions just as anyone else can. No mission will be blitzed and I'll make a reasonable effort to obtain keys for bonus rooms. I have no idea what my standings are, but I'm going to try to run the missions in the appropriate faction space for the ship. Since warping out will count as a failure for the ship, I will not be warping out. I'm interpreting "Most of the ships" as any amount greater than 50%. So to complete the challenge, I will need to successfully run 10 missions without warping out a single time in at least seven of the twelve T1 hulls. Once I have a metric for reasonable completion times, I will be able to compare those as well to determine if I successfully completed that portion of the challenge. Did I miss anything? With some luck I won't be kicked from my corp for doing this.  *I can use combat boosters at any time. If I have not yet requested the first mission out of the ten, I can consume boosters until I get favorable results. If I wait for a combat booster to expire after requesting the first mission, the wait time will be added to the mission time clock. This applies as well if I can't do the missions back to back. For example, if I stop after the fourth mission, I can't consume boosters until I get favorable results before requesting/starting the fifth. Just over 50% is to be fair ,about half, 60-75% is most .
I would call bullshite on anything less than 60 If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:16:00 -
[3603] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) what are reasonable completion times? also what skill level are you testing at? What kinds of fits are allowed? (if for the purposes of testing i happen to use an officer mod would that be cheating? Faction ? Meta 4? My guess is roughly half the Battleships will have to warp out in at least one of the missions, and there will be maybe three battleships that can be considered "effective" for a wide variety of missions. Good question. If someone has a database of completion times that we can use as a standard, that would be swell. Otherwise I'll see what I can do to get some quick averages. I will probably do a few trial runs to get an idea of how much time I'm going to need as I'm going to try and do the missions back to back. I will be skipping courier missions. This toon has 100m+ SP, not all related skills are at V but a good chunk of them are. I am going to make it a bit more challenging and limit the fits to T1/T2/Meta modules. Faction charges, implants, nanite repair paste, and combat boosters* are fair game. I won't be using off-grid boosts, fleet window will be visible as proof. I'll also be using out of game tools to appropriately prepare for and run the missions just as anyone else can. No mission will be blitzed and I'll make a reasonable effort to obtain keys for bonus rooms. I have no idea what my standings are, but I'm going to try to run the missions in the appropriate faction space for the ship. Since warping out will count as a failure for the ship, I will not be warping out. I'm interpreting "Most of the ships" as any amount greater than 50%. So to complete the challenge, I will need to successfully run 10 missions without warping out a single time in at least seven of the twelve T1 hulls. Once I have a metric for reasonable completion times, I will be able to compare those as well to determine if I successfully completed that portion of the challenge. Did I miss anything? With some luck I won't be kicked from my corp for doing this.  *I can use combat boosters at any time. If I have not yet requested the first mission out of the ten, I can consume boosters until I get favorable results. If I wait for a combat booster to expire after requesting the first mission, the wait time will be added to the mission time clock. This applies as well if I can't do the missions back to back. For example, if I stop after the fourth mission, I can't consume boosters until I get favorable results before requesting/starting the fifth. Just over 50% is to be fair ,about half, 60-75% is most . I would call bullshite on anything less than 60
Since 60% is 7.2 ships, I will change it so that it needs to be completed with at least eight of the twelve ships. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:20:00 -
[3604] - Quote
Grandso, Much respect man, you're a good sport If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4612
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:33:00 -
[3605] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Wolfgang Achari wrote:I've gone ahead and checked out of this discussion, because honestly at this point I'm not seeing the point in increasing the PvP viability of marauders. If the PvE pilots, such as yourself, want a dedicated PvE hull then you're more than welcome to it. Though obviously I'm out of touch with the needs of PvE. That being said... Cade Windstalker wrote:No, no they can't. I invite you to attempt this for, say, 10 missions per hull with every T1 Battleship hull (excluding the Scorpion and Armageddon since they're obvious non-contenders here due to their specialized bonsues). Please film the results for Youtube and see how you do, I'm betting most hulls have to warp out at least once and all of them fail to live up to any expectation of "reasonable completion time", especially when compared to a T2 or Pirate Battleship hull. I'll take you up on this challenge. I'll even go one step further and include the Armageddon and Scorpion hulls as well. The Scorpion I know will take longer to complete missions simply because of its lackluster DPS. The Armageddon on the other hand shouldn't have any issues. Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first. Care to make a wager out of this? :) what are reasonable completion times? also what skill level are you testing at? What kinds of fits are allowed? (if for the purposes of testing i happen to use an officer mod would that be cheating? Faction ? Meta 4? My guess is roughly half the Battleships will have to warp out in at least one of the missions, and there will be maybe three battleships that can be considered "effective" for a wide variety of missions. Realistically the only variable worth considering is what is a reasonable completion time (which is highly subjective). Skill level and fitting is completely irrelevant as people using other types of vessels will bling out their ships as well and could be of any skill level. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
357
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:45:00 -
[3606] - Quote
the stationary marauder you guys are refering too would be better served calling it a juggernaught class. big brutish and tanky.
the marauder needs to be fast and agile. lightly armored (within reason), heavy dps (like they are now with good application) and high mobility (mjd bonus, burner speed bonus).
more like a (and i hate to say this) tier 3 bc.
maybe not as fast though.
again, scan probe bonus, salvage bonus. descent, balanced resists. maybe not all the way up too t2, but we would have figured out that a balanced approach allow you to fight everyone you encounter and not just racial enemies. as the galaxy grew, they encountered more ships. a need for a more balanced role. add up the numbers on t2 resists and then divide by 4. like you guys did with the gnosis. we can pump it up from there. the dcII gives a steady ammount, the bastion mode (original version) would kick that up another 30% balanced... if you need stacking penalties to keep it down to a reasonable level, so be it. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:47:00 -
[3607] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I see terms have been agreed on. Just keep in mind however you determine reasonable completion time the ships contributing to those numbers need to generally follow the same guidelines, otherwise the test is highly weighted in favor of those other ships. There is no way to quantify this factor, but keep in mind that a T1 BS has a much lower likelihood of being suicide ganked as well.  this is true, id say we should let cade weigh in on this one. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:50:00 -
[3608] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:the stationary marauder you guys are refering too would be better served calling it a juggernaught class. big brutish and tanky.
the marauder needs to be fast and agile. lightly armored (within reason), heavy dps (like they are now with good application) and high mobility (mjd bonus, burner speed bonus).
more like a (and i hate to say this) tier 3 bc.
maybe not as fast though.
again, scan probe bonus, salvage bonus. descent, balanced resists. maybe not all the way up too t2, but we would have figured out that a balanced approach allow you to fight everyone you encounter and not just racial enemies. as the galaxy grew, they encountered more ships. a need for a more balanced role. add up the numbers on t2 resists and then divide by 4. like you guys did with the gnosis. we can pump it up from there. the dcII gives a steady ammount, the bastion mode (original version) would kick that up another 30% balanced... if you need stacking penalties to keep it down to a reasonable level, so be it.
thats probably true, but thats not what the devs will do, the art assets have already been seen by the csm so they have allready comitted to some extent.
i like the probe strength.
a lot. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
357
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 20:00:00 -
[3609] - Quote
keep the deploy mode. it will work nicely.
its the base stats i am concerned with. we can have a speedy ship for positioning, and once deployed, become a stationary weapons platform. they could even lower the resists down and give us the balanced tank with the local rep bonus back.
itll all mesh beautifully. |

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 20:17:00 -
[3610] - Quote
I haven't been reading a ton of this and just checked in to see if there had been any devposts concerning the marauders balance, but I'd like to note that on the topic of t1 battleship hulls, I know that all of them can complete any L4 mission without warping out. Guaranteed. If you're in a battleship, you don't have an excuse for warping out of an L4 mission, sorry - most people with appropriate skills can complete most L4 missions in a T2-fit hurricane (even post-hurricane change), albeit slowly. The rest just comes down to what reasonable completion times are. In my experience a really nice relatively pimped-out marauder, faction, or pirate battleship will complete L4 missions, on average around 30%-40% faster than a t2-fit teir 3 battleship. With that in mind, I would expect, including travel time and without salvage in a t1 battleship, most missions to take around 10-20 minutes and a few of the big ones to take longer - 60 minutes or so. This is based primarilyo
The argument of whether or not the additional cost of the more advanced ship is worth the additional risk and completion time comes down to how you play your game. |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
224
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 20:29:00 -
[3611] - Quote
Vrykolakasis wrote:I haven't been reading a ton of this and just checked in to see if there had been any devposts concerning the marauders balance, but I'd like to note that on the topic of t1 battleship hulls, I know that all of them can complete any L4 mission without warping out. I can think of several missions I've run recently where warping out would have been mandatory had I been in an Apocalypse vs. my Paladin. Unless I ran a 5-6 slot tank, that is, in which case mission completion time would have been 2-3x longer. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:01:00 -
[3612] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Vrykolakasis wrote:I haven't been reading a ton of this and just checked in to see if there had been any devposts concerning the marauders balance, but I'd like to note that on the topic of t1 battleship hulls, I know that all of them can complete any L4 mission without warping out. I can think of several missions I've run recently where warping out would have been mandatory had I been in an Apocalypse vs. my Paladin. Unless I ran a 5-6 slot tank, that is, in which case mission completion time would have been 2-3x longer. i fell like this has happend b4, lol
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
209
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:06:00 -
[3613] - Quote
Bastion mode is a novelty. I do not approve of the Marauder changes - this is not the direction CCP should be taking them in.
Please, for the love of God, add more Torp range to the Golem. It is utterly pathetic. Also, if you insist on giving the Golem an extra High then make it so I can fit another Launcher in there and give me the PG and CPU to do so. I do not need or want the 3 useless Utility Highs it has already FFS! It does not need another utterly pointless Utility High.
Also, why is Marauder sensor strength so crap? What's the reasoning? Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:11:00 -
[3614] - Quote
Well I've finally compiled all my thoughts together from this thread into a (somewhat) comprehensible format. The thread is located here. I've tried to incorporate many of the ideas I've seen posted here with an eye towards useful base hulls with bastion being a role enhancer. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it overall and where you would change or make it better. |

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:11:00 -
[3615] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Vrykolakasis wrote:I haven't been reading a ton of this and just checked in to see if there had been any devposts concerning the marauders balance, but I'd like to note that on the topic of t1 battleship hulls, I know that all of them can complete any L4 mission without warping out. I can think of several missions I've run recently where warping out would have been mandatory had I been in an Apocalypse vs. my Paladin. Unless I ran a 5-6 slot tank, that is, in which case mission completion time would have been 2-3x longer.
Which missions? I can't imagine needing more than a 3-slot tank in a paladin for anything, and that includes doing silly stuff like pulling full room aggro in The Assault R3. By avoiding full room aggro an Apoc with a 3-slot tank should be able to complete Assault R3 no problem. And I know for a fact it can run AE bonus room without issue. You can argue that where the paladin can use an EANM, an apoc may have to use specific resists, and the convenience is nice there. But otherwise I personally must be having a very different experience in whatever missions you're referring to. |

Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:20:00 -
[3616] - Quote
I thought it was an interesting idea at first but with the second change its getting less so. I like the idea of a highly mobile snipe BS so I like the core idea, not so much anything else. Maybe if bastion mode ends 5-10 seconds after guns stop instead of the flat 60 second cycle. Also better agility. MJD, blast, stop firing, MJD repeat.
Still, a tornado(other ABCs are available) being 1/10 the price MWDing away while blasting is pretty much going to be a better option in most circumstances.
Yeah a T2 1bil BS should be special like Blops are. Do something crazy with it CCP. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:59:00 -
[3617] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:I Do something crazy with it CCP.
i like this man If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
358
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 00:51:00 -
[3618] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Good question. If someone has a database of completion times that we can use as a standard, that would be swell. Otherwise I'll see what I can do to get some quick averages. I will probably do a few trial runs to get an idea of how much time I'm going to need as I'm going to try and do the missions back to back. I will be skipping courier missions. This toon has 100m+ SP, not all related skills are at V but a good chunk of them are. I am going to make it a bit more challenging and limit the fits to T1/T2/Meta modules. Faction charges, implants, nanite repair paste, rigs, and combat boosters* are fair game. I won't be using off-grid boosts, fleet window will be visible as proof. I'll also be using out of game tools to appropriately prepare for and run the missions just as anyone else can. No mission will be blitzed and I'll make a reasonable effort to obtain keys for bonus rooms. I have no idea what my standings are, but I'm going to try to run the missions in the appropriate faction space for the ship. Since warping out will count as a failure for the ship, I will not be warping out. I'm interpreting "Most of the ships" as any amount greater than 60%. So to complete the challenge, I will need to successfully run 10 missions without warping out a single time in at least eight of the twelve T1 hulls. Once I have a metric for reasonable completion times, I will be able to compare those as well to determine if I successfully completed that portion of the challenge. Did I miss anything? With some luck I won't be kicked from my corp for doing this.  *I can use combat boosters at any time. If I have not yet requested the first mission out of the ten, I can consume boosters until I get favorable results. If I wait for a combat booster to expire after requesting the first mission, the wait time will be added to the mission time clock. This applies as well if I can't do the missions back to back. For example, if I stop after the fourth mission, I can't consume boosters until I get favorable results before requesting/starting the fifth. *Edit* Alliance/Corp ops will take precedence over this challenge. So if a ping goes out and I need to abandon a mission, I will restart the mission after DT has passed. *Edit 2* Added rigs as fair game as well since I forgot about them while making the post originally.
As the marauder changes are not on Sisi but the current crop of bs are thats where you should be doing this if you havent already decided to do so. I would love to be around when you are running missions and can supply some of the missions if you are so inclined and if its allowable under the rules that you are setting forth.
I would be interested in running competing missions in my marauder as well to see differences in completion times. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 02:16:00 -
[3619] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:I think the biggest issue, as some have point out, is the balancing between a PVE and PVP perspective. Traditionally speaking, the marauder has been a ship class strictly for PVE since its inception into the game. This has created an iconic "carebear" ship that was able to PvP in the past, but really suffered due to the initial limitations placed by the CCP devs.
Now we've reached an age in EvE where the ships are changing, some drastically and some just a pinch here and there. As we enter the marauder rebalance, I believe it's very important for both the players and for the developers to realize that the pre-existing iterations of marauders can already easily run lvl 4 missions. Rebalancing them specifically so that they're even better at PVE is foolish and lacks forward thinking. Any BS can run lvl 4 missions in highsec easily enough so there is no need to relegate a single class to just PVE. If these ships are balanced correctly, they will still excel at PVE just because they excel at PVP.
Now, as we focus on the ship balancing itself I would like to say this. As I've watched the ship balancing come and pass for the T1 hulls, I've really felt that the game has lost of its racial flare and has been more focused on homogenization through equal slot allowances, slot layouts, etc. These marauders represent the pinnacle of their respective races sub capital class ship, and as such should truly show racial differences. Giving every marauder the same web bonus across the four races is boring and takes away their differences and specialties. As for the bastion module, the idea is exciting but the presentation needs work. Due to this, these ships prove challenging to balance but here goes my two cents.
I would like to provide a concept instead of hard numbers, which hopefully will be discussed and built upon: Bastion Module: 1) 60 second cycle timer 2) Anchor ship when activated. 3) Provides Ewar immunity while activated. 4) Provides mass increase so you can't be bumped. To counter the WH closing problem: you cannot jump while the module is activated....or dock or jump gates for that matter 5) Provides 100% bonus to armor repairer/shield repairer effectiveness and cap reduction and/or cycle time reduction to armor/shield repairers. (Caution for ASB fits....may be OP) 6) Is scripted to provide specific bonuses to short range or long range play styles. This module is only limited to 1 hull that cost over a billion, its okay to introduce a useful one considering the trade off of being stuck in place for a minute
Marauders: Like I mentioned earlier, these should be the racial embodiment of their weapon system. They should illustrate the strength of pulse/beam lasers, blaster/railgun hybrids, cruise/torp missiles, auto/artillery projectiles through hull specific bonuses. Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.
The marauders need survivability inside and outside of bastion mode. This means providing hull bonuses that boost actual armor or shield HP. This provides usefulness for use outside of bastion mode, i.e receiving RR, and provides bonuses to bastion mode, i.e. having enough buffer to get rep cycles off.
The marauders also need racial specific support bonuses like webs, but not a blanket bonus to each hull. These ships aren't similar by any means in the damage application or ranges of engagement, so their support bonus shouldn't be similar as well. Paladin: bonus to TC (mid range weapon system) Golem: bonus to TP (missile application) Kronos: bonus to web strength (short range weapon system) Vargur: bonus to TC ( mid range weapon system)
(I'm not exactly sure what kind of (or if we should even have the bonus) support form of Ewar to use without having overlap) Edited****
Keep the MJD role bonus. Coordinated with a scripted bastion module, these ships can benefit from pulling range or closing distances to accommodate different play styles and fleet doctrines.
Still don't have anything kind of bonus that could be given to the Vargur that wouldn't step on the Paladin's toes in terms of a support bonus. Both lasers and projectiles fall into midrange category so it's proving to be challenging. |

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 03:48:00 -
[3620] - Quote
For those interested, I've setup an in game chat channel "MissionChallenge". I'll get things flushed out a bit better in the next day or so, but otherwise I'll be updating the MOTD in the channel with my progress.
Kusum Fawn wrote:As the marauder changes are not on Sisi but the current crop of bs are thats where you should be doing this if you havent already decided to do so. I would love to be around when you are running missions and can supply some of the missions if you are so inclined and if its allowable under the rules that you are setting forth.
I would be interested in running competing missions in my marauder as well to see differences in completion times.
I was planning on doing it through Sisi because of the convenience the markets provide. If folks would rather see it done on TQ I can work on making that happen instead.
As long as you're not providing boosts there isn't an issue. You just need to be in another squad/wing/etc. so I can warp to missions or just drop fleet after initiating warp to the mission. Shoot me a message with the factions you have access to with L4 security missions and we'll go from there.
I'm planning on timing the individual missions in addition to the total time for all ten. So everyone can compare the average/individual mission time with their own if they would like to. |
|

Darkwolf
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 05:55:00 -
[3621] - Quote
This thread has gone places.
I'll be very interested to hear about your results, keep us posted!
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 05:59:00 -
[3622] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:This thread has gone places.
I'll be very interested to hear about your results, keep us posted!
It lost steam hard after it became apparent that CCP was going back to the drawing board.
That's good though. This forum did it's job. We're going to see a much more thought out product in their next offering, I'm sure of it. |

Darkwolf
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 06:08:00 -
[3623] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:That's good though. This forum did it's job. We're going to see a much more thought out product in their next offering, I'm sure of it.
That too, but I was referring to the all-in mission BS shootout :) |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
397
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 06:59:00 -
[3624] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Due to time constraints, the videos won't arrive quickly to your inbox. However, if you think any hulls in particular are going to be more likely to fail than others just send me a message and I can do those first.
Care to make a wager out of this? :)
Is it possible for You to upload the video on YT? I want to see it, too. If you don't mind. :)
Are You dooing the same mission with every hull or different missions? And which mission? Worlds collide or something else? Maybe Dread Pirate Scarlett.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 08:18:00 -
[3625] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:For those interested, I've setup an in game chat channel "MissionChallenge". I'll get things flushed out a bit better in the next day or so, but otherwise I'll be updating the MOTD in the channel with my progress. Kusum Fawn wrote:As the marauder changes are not on Sisi but the current crop of bs are thats where you should be doing this if you havent already decided to do so. I would love to be around when you are running missions and can supply some of the missions if you are so inclined and if its allowable under the rules that you are setting forth.
I would be interested in running competing missions in my marauder as well to see differences in completion times. I was planning on doing it through Sisi because of the convenience the markets provide. If folks would rather see it done on TQ I can work on making that happen instead. As long as you're not providing boosts there isn't an issue. You just need to be in another squad/wing/etc. so I can warp to missions or just drop fleet after initiating warp to the mission. Shoot me a message with the factions you have access to with L4 security missions and we'll go from there. I'm planning on timing the individual missions in addition to the total time for all ten. So everyone can compare the average/individual mission time with their own if they would like to.
I was pondering this lastnight, the ships should probably be put up against each of the pirate factions, ie,I'm currently flying an npoc in caldari space and as such am often up against guristas,not ideal but that's where my corp is.
yeah I'd imagine the test server would be fine
again man, good sport, will hop on that channel next time I'm in
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Carnilion
Wurmloch Freelancer New Eden Industrie Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 08:30:00 -
[3626] - Quote
Bastion Module: i think i could like it
but change the beloved shieldboostbonus (Golem) to a Webberbonus?!? I mostly fight Sansha PvE so I'll have less repp-amount (without Bastion) and even a Meta 9 Webber only has 15 km range while my Sansha-rats hang around 20-30 km! So i would say Web-bonus ist truly useless.
Also i heard Guristas like to hang at more than 15 km range.
So what is the Webber good for? Frigates? My drones will do that... or a large Smartbomb (not in Highsec in know) in the extra High And what module should i change for a mostly useless Webber? Tank? (uhh... no due to lost Shildboostbonus) TP (no, i like to shoot BS with ragetorpedos while doing near full damage) so any ideas? |

Gazzine TunakTun
Tuczniki Alfa
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 08:32:00 -
[3627] - Quote
Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? When was last response ?
Up to now story is like: 1. far from beeing perfect changes proposal 2. fix to changes makeing things even worse 3. silence ...
The third one is what worries me most. I wonder if there will be anyone brave enough and patient to go through almost 200 pages of posts and make summary.
BR,
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
398
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 09:51:00 -
[3628] - Quote
Gazzine TunakTun wrote:Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? When was last response ?
Up to now story is like: 1. far from beeing perfect changes proposal 2. fix to changes makeing things even worse 3. silence ...
The third one is what worries me most. I wonder if there will be anyone brave enough and patient to go through almost 200 pages of posts and make summary.
BR,
No, I think right now they're just a little bit sad, maybe even depressed.
They had this cool and new Idea and for sub caps it was really unique and it would've given the marauder a totally new role, apart from it's previous occupation.
But all they received was 180 pages of nerd rage, whining and hate...
So I guess they'll be drunk and depressed for another week or so before they (hopefully) recover and get back to some marauder iteration that is closer to what they wanted to do before lots of guys clogged this thread with their "I wanna have a web bonus! Marauders are now crap because I can't use them in incursions anymore! I refuse any change at all!" whine threads.
Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
72
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 10:35:00 -
[3629] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gazzine TunakTun wrote:Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? No, I think right now they're just a little bit sad, maybe even depressed. They had this really cool and new Idea and for sub caps it was really unique and it would've given the marauder a totally new role, apart from it's previous occupation. But all they received was 180 pages of nerd rage, whining and hate... So I guess they'll be drunk and depressed for another week or so before they (hopefully) recover and get back to some marauder iteration that is closer to what they wanted to do before lots of guys clogged this thread with their "I wanna have a web bonus! Marauders are now crap because I can't use them in incursions anymore! I refuse any change at all!" whine threads. Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous. How does that old saying go, " hell hath no fury like the wrath of an sp invested mmorpg community" If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 10:37:00 -
[3630] - Quote
first: except that it doesn't - marauders in PVP today already fight the way the bastion module tries to make them fight, so they don't need to use bastion unless they're already well and truly in a position where they're going to die and want to draw it out as long as possible. (which is why ccp tried to shoe horn the rep bonus onto bastion to offer some kind of advantage to using the module)
this meant that ccp stole from the PVE runners the primary reason(s) for owning a marauder in the first place, while simultaneously giving pvpers nothing they didn't already have in exchange for no longer being able to runaway form certain death.
in terms of a single situational weakness, that's a very big problem - one weakness means if these things ever became prevalent that only ever one counter move would be used - it stifles fleet creativity, peeps resort to only using the easiest way to do something as it is, and we want to make this worse by forcing a situation where players must use one doctrine to win? - the ships must have multiple weaknesses and multiple strengths that compensate, as bastion is now, it doesn't offer either.
- only removes the positive strengths of the hulls in both environments for the sake of a laughable MJD dependent role idea that no one uses as it is (despite having the option to do so with the current marauders, or even standard battleships)
mentioned this before, but the ships are not what's broken, they have a role and they're good at it - what's broken are the various game mechanics the ships need to use in order to do what they do - that's the part that's resulting in the appearance that the hulls are unbalanced. (also, the single purpose views of the people that fly said ships - 100 missioners cry that the ships are no good cuz it doesn't do the same thing and all of a sudden ccp gets the impression the ship's broken)
"when i fit armor tank and shield tanks to the same ship why does the shield one always seem better for incursions?"
'cuz armor fits are better at using mid slot subversion and projection modules you don't need in incursions and so you falsely believe that armor is some how deficient, despite both doctrines being capable of the same damage outputs, try fitting low slot mods damage and rig damage on your armor tanks..see what happens'
"why are my marauders only good for missions and not for pvp?"
'cuz you're thinking to fly them the same way you do in missions when you try to use them in pvp....you can't tank against players the same way you tank rats..players hurt more - therefore you must adapt your doctrine for the different environment you'll be facing - even if it means discarding your beloved tractor beam and shield boost bonus'
when you look at balancing a ship in eve, a game where ships can be fit to use almost any role, you have to think of the fittings that sit on the hull before you think of the hull itself - then you build the ship around the kinds of fits you want to work better than others, cuz the fittings you want to use determine good ship skill bonuses, determine PG and CPU values, determine fitting slot layouts. |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
72
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 10:55:00 -
[3631] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:first: except that it doesn't - marauders in PVP today already fight the way the bastion module tries to make them fight, so they don't need to use bastion unless they're already well and truly in a position where they're going to die and want to draw it out as long as possible. (which is why ccp tried to shoe horn the rep bonus onto bastion to offer some kind of advantage to using the module)
this meant that ccp stole from the PVE runners the primary reason(s) for owning a marauder in the first place, while simultaneously giving pvpers nothing they didn't already have in exchange for no longer being able to runaway form certain death.
in terms of a single situational weakness, that's a very big problem - one weakness means if these things ever became prevalent that only ever one counter move would be used - it stifles fleet creativity, peeps resort to only using the easiest way to do something as it is, and we want to make this worse by forcing a situation where players must use one doctrine to win? - the ships must have multiple weaknesses and multiple strengths that compensate, as bastion is now, it doesn't offer either.
- only removes the positive strengths of the hulls in both environments for the sake of a laughable MJD dependent role idea that no one uses as it is (despite having the option to do so with the current marauders, or even standard battleships)
mentioned this before, but the ships are not what's broken, they have a role and they're good at it - what's broken are the various game mechanics the ships need to use in order to do what they do - that's the part that's resulting in the appearance that the hulls are unbalanced. (also, the single purpose views of the people that fly said ships - 100 missioners cry that the ships are no good cuz it doesn't do the same thing and all of a sudden ccp gets the impression the ship's broken)
"when i fit armor tank and shield tanks to the same ship why does the shield one always seem better for incursions?"
'cuz armor fits are better at using mid slot subversion and projection modules you don't need in incursions and so you falsely believe that armor is some how deficient, despite both doctrines being capable of the same damage outputs, try fitting low slot mods damage and rig damage on your armor tanks..see what happens'
"why are my marauders only good for missions and not for pvp?"
'cuz you're thinking to fly them the same way you do in missions when you try to use them in pvp....you can't tank against players the same way you tank rats..players hurt more - therefore you must adapt your doctrine for the different environment you'll be facing - even if it means discarding your beloved tractor beam and shield boost bonus'
when you look at balancing a ship in eve, a game where ships can be fit to use almost any role, you have to think of the fittings that sit on the hull before you think of the hull itself - then you build the ship around the kinds of fits you want to work better than others, cuz the fittings you want to use determine good ship skill bonuses, determine PG and CPU values, determine fitting slot layouts.
ill pull you up on one thing
I don't feel that ccp are trying to shoehorn anything, I'd say its an attempt to accentuate their current doctrine in pve and hopefully give some role in peeeeevpeeeee, how effective have they been? Well, nearly 200 pages of bickering obout that hasn't gotten us any closer to an answer . If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:00:00 -
[3632] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
ill pull you up on one thing
I don't feel that ccp are trying to shoehorn anything, I'd say its an attempt to accentuate their current doctrine in pve and hopefully give some role in peeeeevpeeeee, how effective have they been? Well, nearly 200 pages of bickering obout that hasn't gotten us any closer to an answer .
aye, though the 200 pages are kinda normal - am thankful there have been a few around that are trying to refine ideas they make as they go - and more importantly help refine other people's
i used shoehorn cuz that's honestly what it feels like they're doing - "well this first idea didn't quite fit lets throw it back into the furnace and belt it a few times and maybe that'll fix it, won't matter if the metal becomes brittle"..rather than getting an entirely new block and starting again.
|

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:06:00 -
[3633] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous.
No... U !
because then explain me why bother with so long training time and pricetag.
crying is 100% legit and rightful. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
72
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:14:00 -
[3634] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
ill pull you up on one thing
I don't feel that ccp are trying to shoehorn anything, I'd say its an attempt to accentuate their current doctrine in pve and hopefully give some role in peeeeevpeeeee, how effective have they been? Well, nearly 200 pages of bickering obout that hasn't gotten us any closer to an answer .
aye, though the 200 pages are kinda normal - am thankful there have been a few around that are trying to refine ideas they make as they go - and more importantly help refine other people's i used shoehorn cuz that's honestly what it feels like they're doing - "well this first idea didn't quite fit lets throw it back into the furnace and belt it a few times and maybe that'll fix it, won't matter if the metal becomes brittle"..rather than getting an entirely new block and starting again.
I don't feel they needed to though, but you're more or less on the ball with how the seacond one felt.
I think iteration 2 was more of a stoke than a genuine proposal, if so it feckin worked. Can't wait to see what it ends up as
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
73
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:22:00 -
[3635] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous. No... U ! because then explain me why bother with so long training time and pricetag. crying is 100% legit and rightful.
Gé¼60ish worth of sp + anywhere between Gé¼60 - Gé¼80ish for the hull + that again in mods . Completely legitimate rage. I genuinely feel for Ye who feel disenfranchised with this, which is why its soooooooo dame entertaining. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
401
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 11:41:00 -
[3636] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous. No... U ! because then explain me why bother with so long training time and pricetag. crying is 100% legit and rightful.
Irony?
Anyways, so what?!
In a few days I'll have completely maxed out all the marauder support skills, do you see me complaining about the marauder update? The first marauder iteration would've been super awesome! One of the coolest things I've ever seen in this game, regarding ship rebalancing / updates.
All that whining was totally pointless, all everyone saw was how the marauders used to be and how they wanted them to be and once it was clear CCP wouldn't give them exactly what some guys had imagined them to be in their heads the thread turned into one giant "Y u no giv uberboat?!" tardfest. 
Really, it's just ridiculous.
CCP should've kept the first iteration, it had the most complaints (which also means that it most probably was the best suggestion so far).  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:08:00 -
[3637] - Quote
Multi-post Warning! CCP Eterne wanted me to migrate my separate thread into this one. I bow to his authority. The original thread was here and includes some great feedback.
This proposal attempts to satisfy at least some of the groups here, but I fear it will be impossible to provide a ship class that meets everyone's goals without producing an abomination that would eclipse most other ships. I've formed this proposal around several design goals and tried to follow a consistent philosophy towards balance.
Design Goals
- The base hull must be usable "as is" without fitting the Bastion Module
- Maintain current PVE mission capabilities
- Provide opportunities to expand roles into additional PVE scenarios
- Enhance PVP effectiveness albeit in niche roles
- Marauders should fit within the currently described framework of T2 "specialization"
- Hull bonuses must be complimentary and not conflict with each other
- Role Bonuses should reflect suggested use of the Marauder class
- Special Abilities should enhance the general performance of the class outside of suggested role
Balance Philosophy
- Hull bonuses should not require fitting modules that would not have been fit without them
- Bastion Module must be roughly equivalent to any module it would replace
- The Marauder class should be balanced within itself in that no one race is significantly better than the rest although they may lend themselves to one aspect over another in marginal ways
- The Marauder class should not out damage comparable Pirate hulls in significant ways but may exceed Pirate hulls in application or projection in certain scenarios
- The additional skill point investment should be recognized versus the T1 and faction hulls in clear but marginal ways
The current Marauder class has several attributes common to all races that together encompass the nature or essence of the class. The class description implies Marauders are efficient and semi-self sufficient hulls and these common attributes tend to lend themselves to that end through reduced ammo usage, enhanced tanking potential, better than average damage, and inherent damage application compared to the T1 and faction hulls.
- 4 Turret/Launcher hard points
- Role Bonus - 100% weapon damage
- Role Bonus - 100% tractor beam range and velocity
- Low Sensor Strength
- 37.5% local repair bonus
- 5%/level damage boost (Golem is an outlier in that it's boost is application and not raw damage)
- 400 rig calibration but only 2 rig slots
- 10%/lvl bonus to damage application modules (Vargur is an outlier in that its application bonus is a 7.5%/lvl direct tracking bonus)
The intent of this proposal is to preserve the current nature of the Marauder class. I've taken the thematic approach of concentrating on efficiency over raw power to ensure the general flavor of the Marauder class isn't lost. All Marauders would share the following attributes:
- +1 High slot (total of 8)
- 5 Turret/Launcher hard points
- Special Ability - 75% weapon damage
- Special Ability - 200% tractor beam range
- Special Ability - 100% tractor beam velocity
- T1 Sensor Strength
- T2 Resist Profile
- 5% bonus to local repair amount
- 5%/lvl damage boost (Golem gains its explosion velocity elsewhere)
- 400 calibration and 2 rig slots
- Role Bonus - Built-in MJD (base stats for pilots without skill)
- Role Bonus - 70% reduction of MJD reactivation delay
- Role Bonus - Can select 50km or 100km for MJD distance
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:08:00 -
[3638] - Quote
There are three significant changes here to the common attributes of the current Marauder class. I'll try to explain my reasoning behind each one in detail before getting into the changes to each hull.
High Slots, Hard Points, and Weapon Damage Role Bonus The most extreme change presented in this proposal by far compared to the current Marauders or the developer rebalancing is the addition of an 8th high slot that is also a turret/launcher hardpoint. The primary driver for this approach is to provide something of real value to balance the bastion module against. This change is paired with Bastion module requiring a turret/launcher hard point to be fit.
It is important to note that the Weapon Damage special ability was also reduced from 100% down to 75%. Here's a comparison of effective weapons between the TQ Marauders, Pirate BS, and this proposal and the overall effect on raw damage potential:
- Paladin TQ: 10
- Paladin New: 10.9
- Nightmare: 10 (I know, I don't like this either. More later)
- Golem TQ: 8
- Golem New: 8.75
- Kronos TQ: 10
- Kronos New: 10.9
- Vindicator: 11
- Vargur TQ: 10
- Vargur New: 10.9
- Machariel: 10.9
Overall the new Marauder sees a 9.375% increase in damage potential over their TQ versions with all 5 hard points occupied. For this added damage they expend more 25% more ammo and/or 25% more cap/s. The overall efficiency of running missions should be about the same with faster mission time through increased DPS but more frequent resupply.
There are 2 issues I see with this approach. First, as it stands without having any information about the Pirate rebalance direction, the Paladin will simply be about 10% higher damage than the Nighmare. However, the nightmare does have the advantage of being shield tanked, has 75mb drone bandwidth, and will likely have a 4th heat sink fitted while the Paladin will most likely only have 3. The comparison between the Vargur and Machariel is still in the Machariel's favor as it is far and away more maneuverable than the Vargur after initial engagement.
The other issue is that it might be compelling to remove the explosion velocity bonus from the Golem and replace it with a straight 5%/lvl damage bonus. For all targets, a 25% damage bonus is better than the explosion velocity bonus while the target's speed remains below 750m/s. Targets on approach will likely take roughly the same damage as before. However, once orbiting they would take more damage. It's a toss up really. I left the explosion velocity bonus in place for now.
Sensor Strength The super low sensor strength is a wicked limitation in both PVE and PVP depending on your weapon systems and NPC targets. It almost single handedly precludes the Marauder class from being PVP viable outside the use of some special module like Bastion. Give these hulls T1 sensor strength and be done with it.
T2 Resists + 25% local repair Anyone who has followed the developer thread knows that this has been the most hotly debated changed proposed by the developers. The Marauder class trades it's local repair bonus for their full T2 racial resist profile. I personally don't like the exchange as it makes some hulls better than others and hulls like the Paladin actually become worse in missions because of it. To alleviate some of the burdon, all Marauders have a 5%/lvl bonus to local repair instead of the 7.5%.
Miscelaneous Changes Other notable changes include increasing the bonus to tractor beam range to 200% making them effective out to 72m. This guarantees they will reach anywhere within a mission space after at most 1 MJD use and most likely everywhere if positioned in the center of the pocket. Another change sees the hull get a special MJD built-in. This frees up a medium power slot for use and eliminates the loss of hull bonus if you didn't want to fit the module. You can still choose not to use it for whatever reason but your fitting options remain as flexible as they are today. With the very low base speed of these hulls, most will likely want to have a second prop module to the MJD even further limiting the fitting options. Just build the thing in. Make it non-functional for non-skilled pilots if you have to.
Overall I think these changes make the Marauder class widely useful in many aspects of EVE gameplay without requiring the Bastion module to be effective. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:08:00 -
[3639] - Quote
Bastion Module I've chosen to take the scripted approach that so many others have suggested including myslef in the developer thread. I think it's the only approach that will result in a balance between usefulness and consistency. The goal of this bastion module version is to specialize the Marauder class into the role of tactical deployment for use in long range engagements or establishing a beachhead. Since you are giving up an active turret/launcher to fit a Bastion module, it's base line power is balanced against losing roughly 20% of the hulls raw DPS potential.
Base Statistics
- -1 turret/launcher hard point
- 10 CPU
- 100 PG
- Duration 60s
- One per ship
- Immobile while active
- Skill requirements: High Energy Physics (should change) & Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Weapon Stability Configuration (long range)
- 50% reduction to MJD spool up time
- +50mb Drone Bandwidth (75mb total)
- 25% increase of turret optimal and falloff range
- 25% increase to Cruise Missile and Torpedo velocity
- 50% increase to Cruise Missile and Torpedo hitpoints
- 25% increase to maximum targeting range
- 100% increase to scan resolution
- Immune to Tracking Disruption, Sensor Dampening, and targeted ECM
- 100% increase to optimal range of Remote Sensor Boosters and Target Painters
This script is designed to enhance a remotely deployed Marauder's ability to apply damage, avoid disruption, and provide spotting capabilities for fleet/gang members. This script does NOT negate incoming remote assistance. The MJD spool up time reduction allows more breathing room if an enemy gets too close.
The increase in range will roughly allow most weapons to use at least one tier better ammo, with some being able to jump two notches. This equates to roughly a 10-15% increase in damage application which negates a significant portion of the 20% dps loss from 1 less turret. The added missile and torpedo velocity and hitpoints should help to minimize the reduction of damage due to defender missile use.
The targeting range expands the engagement envelope to include most ranges that would result from a MJD activation regardless of initial target distance. The bonus to scan resolution should allow the Marauder to quickly lock targets in response to priority changes.
The EWAR immunity in this version is selective to include only targeted effects that would otherwise reduce the Marauder's ability to project and apply it's damage. While the increased range on Remote Sensor Boosters and Target Painters provides Marauders a specialized role in targeting support.
The idea is to ensure that a Marauder under WSC will win any fight in which its enemy chooses to stay at range while remaining vulnerable to CQ encounters. WSC truely specializes the ship's role while limiting it's use outside the designed engagement envelope. While long range weapons are greatly enhanced, the use of this script with short range weapons fails to reach parity with the loss of an active turret/launcher. A wing of these ships would be quite effective as they could each fit remote assist modules and repair each other as well.
Area Denial Configuration (beachhead)
- 50% increase to local repair amount
- 100% increase to maximum shield and armor hitpoints
- 15% reduction of incoming energy drain and neutralizer effectiveness
- 50% reduction of turret signature resolution
- 20% reduction of Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion radius
- 20% increase of Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity
- -25mb Drone Bandwidth (Deployed drones marked abandoned)
- 50% reduction of maximum targeting range
- Disrupts all remote assistance within 25km reducing effectiveness by 50%
- Cannot be remote assisted
This script enables the Marauder to engage the enemy in close combat while disrupting thier supply lines. It is designed to be the first ship into the breach opening up a path for more to follow.
The increase in local repair amount coupled with the increased shield and armor hitpoints provide significant staying power. However, the hitpoints are added upon entering Bastion mode and are removed wholesale upon exiting. When the shield hitpoints are subtracted, any deficit between current sheild strength and removal will be subtracted from Armor prior to the armor buffer being removed. This continues onto the hull if there is still a difficiency. A sufficiently damaged ship will be destroyed upon exiting Bastion mode without enough health to repay the buffer.
The bastioned Marauder would be able to apply its damage very effectively even against smaller targets. The 50% reduction in turret signature resolution provides almost medium turret levels of tracking versus smaller targets, while the 20% bonuses to explosion velocity and radius do the same for missile platforms. The maximum targeting distance penalty ensure that this great application only applies within short range of the Marauder.
A beachhead Marauder would be able to significantly disrupt an enemy's logistics once engaged. It would likely be unwise for an enemy to enter the 25km range unless it's willing to meet the Marauder on its terms. Marauders employing this script would most likely carry nuetralizers or smart bombs in its utility highs under this model. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:08:00 -
[3640] - Quote
Ship Specifics I've chosen to maintain the basic ship statistics for fittings presented in the developer thread. Those can be assumed unless specifically mentioned in each ship's section.
Paladin Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
- 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking
- 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
Marauder Skill Bonus:
- 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
- 5% bonus to local repair amount
*Roll some or all of the capacitor bonus into the base hull
Golem Caldari Battleship Bonus:
- 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters
- 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
Marauder Skill Bonus:
- 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo rate of fire
- 5% bonus to local repair amount
Kronos Gallente Battleship Bonus:
- 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking
- 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret falloff range
Marauder Skill Bonus:
- 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage
- 5% bonus to local repair amount
Vargur Minmatar Battleship Bonus:
- 7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking
- 10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff range
Marauder Skill Bonus:
- 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
- 5% bonus to local repair amount
I organized the bonuses into application and projection for the always lvl 5 battleship skill while linking the best bonuses of damage and local repair to the longer train time of the Marauder skill. |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1228
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:14:00 -
[3641] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gazzine TunakTun wrote:Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? No, I think right now they're just a little bit sad, maybe even depressed. They had this really cool and new Idea and for sub caps it was really unique and it would've given the marauder a totally new role, apart from it's previous occupation. But all they received was 180 pages of nerd rage, whining and hate... So I guess they'll be drunk and depressed for another week or so before they (hopefully) recover and get back to some marauder iteration that is closer to what they wanted to do before lots of guys clogged this thread with their "I wanna have a web bonus! Marauders are now crap because I can't use them in incursions anymore! I refuse any change at all!" whine threads. Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous.
When my Redeemer starts looking like a viable comparison to my Paladin for most applications in Eve, then the proposed changes to the Marauder are beyond awful. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
503
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:34:00 -
[3642] - Quote
Ms. Ambraelle has some interesting proposals, but I wonder: just how much of that stuff is codeable within current EVE engine without requiring massive code rewriting that can presumably take years. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:37:00 -
[3643] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Ms. Ambraelle has some interesting proposals, but I wonder: just how much of that stuff is codeable within current EVE engine without requiring massive code rewriting that can presumably take years.
The two major departures from know features are the 50/100km MJD and the hitpoint buffer of the beachhead version of the bastion mode. A third possible issue is the turret signature resolution reduction as I'm not sure that is a bonusable statistic currently.
To be honest, I'd be happy with the base hull and just the CWS version of bastion. The beachhead version of bastion might be better served as its own ship class. I just didn't want to leave the brawling or short range weapon users out in the cold for the Marauder class. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 12:45:00 -
[3644] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:When my Redeemer starts looking like a viable comparison to my Paladin for most applications in Eve, then the proposed changes to the Marauder are beyond awful.
No offence, bight now I'm looking for a polite substitude for the word idiotic... 
The Redeemer is a good ship, even for pve, unlike for example the widow. But, it's in no way comparable to a paladin or the golem, and with CCP's first marauder rebalance iteration the redeemer wouldn't be able to hold a candle to the various marauder ships.
And don't you dare start with that incursion rubbish again. Incursions are not the only thing in high sec. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:09:00 -
[3645] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Ms. Ambraelle has some interesting proposals, but I wonder: just how much of that stuff is codeable within current EVE engine without requiring massive code rewriting that can presumably take years. The two major departures from know features are the 50/100km MJD and the hitpoint buffer of the beachhead version of the bastion mode. A third possible issue is the turret signature resolution reduction as I'm not sure that is a bonusable statistic currently. To be honest, I'd be happy with the base hull and just the CWS version of bastion. The beachhead version of bastion might be better served as its own ship class. I just didn't want to leave the brawling or short range weapon users out in the cold for the Marauder class.
In general, in my experience (20 years of large-scale highe performance client-server systems), anything involving just a server-side change is fairly straightforward. Anything involving client/server handshaking takes an order of magnitude longer.
Anything involving graphics, and you need to write a blank cheque...
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1820
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:30:00 -
[3646] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gazzine TunakTun wrote:Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? No, I think right now they're just a little bit sad, maybe even depressed. They had this really cool and new Idea and for sub caps it was really unique and it would've given the marauder a totally new role, apart from it's previous occupation. But all they received was 180 pages of nerd rage, whining and hate... So I guess they'll be drunk and depressed for another week or so before they (hopefully) recover and get back to some marauder iteration that is closer to what they wanted to do before lots of guys clogged this thread with their "I wanna have a web bonus! Marauders are now crap because I can't use them in incursions anymore! I refuse any change at all!" whine threads. Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous.
The initial proposal was like, "cool!"
Then they changed it and the answer has been like "oh sh*t" in most posts since.
Is there a message?
I think yes.
Message 1: no, the new proposal is not liked by players. Message 2: yes, the initial proposal was liked better. Message 3: why did someone suggest the devs that they should make proposal 2 instead of 1? Who was? Not someone who posted here to defend proposal 2... maybe was the CSM " "representatives" "? The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1228
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:33:00 -
[3647] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:When my Redeemer starts looking like a viable comparison to my Paladin for most applications in Eve, then the proposed changes to the Marauder are beyond awful. No offence, bight now I'm looking for a polite synonym for the word idiotic...  The Redeemer is a good ship, even for pve, unlike for example the widow. But, it's in no way comparable to a paladin or the golem, and with CCP's first marauder rebalance iteration the redeemer wouldn't have been able to hold a candle to the various marauder ships. And don't you dare start with that incursion rubbish again. Incursions are not the only thing in high sec.
The only thing in high sec? Of course not. But a large chunk of it, damn right.
Have a look at any day's online population. On any given day, there is between 3% and 7% of the entire online population in the Incursion constellation. The percentage of all the high sec players, obviously higher.
I would love to know how many null sec players depend on incursions to build up their wallets to support their null sec lifestyle. (One of the low sec bloggers posted how a hundred test players rolled through his system enroute to running incursions).
So yeah, you call it rubbish. I call it fact.
CCP has made it clear that not only is it "PvP first" when designing a ship, it is "PvP ONLY". CCP wants explosions? CCP wants people (outside of the null sec cartels, who are drowning in cash) able to afford the shiny ships and supercaps?
Then they have to let people keep the tools that allow them to PvE. Right now, that is clearly not the direction that CCP is looking.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:35:00 -
[3648] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Ms. Ambraelle has some interesting proposals, but I wonder: just how much of that stuff is codeable within current EVE engine without requiring massive code rewriting that can presumably take years. The two major departures from know features are the 50/100km MJD and the hitpoint buffer of the beachhead version of the bastion mode. A third possible issue is the turret signature resolution reduction as I'm not sure that is a bonusable statistic currently. To be honest, I'd be happy with the base hull and just the CWS version of bastion. The beachhead version of bastion might be better served as its own ship class. I just didn't want to leave the brawling or short range weapon users out in the cold for the Marauder class.
all easily changeable bar the MJD which will need supporting UI code in order to access the function of altering range, by far the best solution to date, however i would suggest swapping the 50% self rep bonus for remote rep, for the reason that if the idea is to act as a 'door breaching charge' you're not going to be able to tank yourself, may as well give reason to fit RR in high slots.
logic being aggressive fits will then fit 1-2 RR mods and 1 vampire/nuet, where long range ships will tend to sport out right RR mods (local reps in PVP (particularly on battleship scale) are a waste of space in most cases - so the preference is to rely on remote aid regardless of the fight you're in)
if you're gonna design an RR battleship hull may aswell make it a focus for both modes - and the close range mode will need it far more than long range, so if you want to lock out RR for one, swap the two and make the long range doctrine RR immune (they're already out of dps range as it is, no reason to make them harder to kill, and the close range ships will have neuts to worry about)
assuming you are still vulnerable to targeted ECM etc in close range mode, sensor dampeners will decimate this ships functionality in close quarters, as will tracking disruptors (though to a lesser degree) - as was pointed out to me by vendetta a few days ago, be careful limiting targeting range because that 25 k 'max range' will drop to less than 10 very quickly, making the ship all but worthless - it's ok to have them vulnerable to ewar just be cautious. cruisers and frigates carry lots of those mods and you don't want to shift from 'has a weakness to' to 'is completely screwed against' just cuz one frigate happened to carry a sensor damp - you'll need a bit of room on either side.
finally: do not script this, have two distinct modules - so before you leave dock you must pick one or the other and cannot swap between both on the fly - this will ensure that you're locked into one style of strengths and weaknesses for the duration of the flight while changing between doctrines is great with the strengths you propose being able to alter between them with only a minute or two's notice without leaving the field (or using a carrier/etc) is a bit much.
again, well compiled collection of the better suggestions here |

Horatio Astrates
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:49:00 -
[3649] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium, please send the analysis team back to drawing board!
Why everything you suggests ends up in a Missionrunner Paladin nerv?
Your Suggestions for Paladin Resists Armor resists: 50% EM / 80% EX / 62.5% KIN / 35% THERM Current Resists Armor resists: 50% EM / 40% EX / 34.375 % KIN / 35% THERM Blood Raiders do EM and Thermal Damage, with my Paladin I fly against Blood Raiders. I will just loose the Repair Bonus. For Angels I would choose another hull.
I do not need the "7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range" bonus. I am flying with Tachyons. If I have to fight on 70km plus I just switch the lenses; most NPCs will not do damage in this range anyway.
|

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3370
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:52:00 -
[3650] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
The initial proposal was like, "cool!"
Then they changed it and the answer has been like "oh sh*t" in most posts since.
Is there a message?
I think yes.
Message 1: no, the new proposal is not liked by players. Message 2: yes, the initial proposal was liked better. Message 3: why did someone suggest the devs that they should make proposal 2 instead of 1? Who was? Not someone who posted here to defend proposal 2... maybe was the CSM " "representatives" "?
Luckily CCP understands that game balancing involving spaceships/character classes is not so much about what players "like" as it is about creating a functional game that is enjoyable as a whole.
Let's imagine chessonline as an example. Chess developers would be faced with the challenge of the King underperforming, and being less used than the Queen. They post their initial ideas to forums.chessonline.com, and OUTRAEGGG111!!! follows! These people want the King to have movable arms and blinking eyes, castling with any other piece and unlimited movement. Turns out that the players giving the most vocal feedback avoid all human contact and prefer to play against AI on Training-level difficulty, and equally interested in dressing up their Kings with Ken clothes and playing with it, rather than actually trying to defeat their human opponents on the chessboard. . |
|

stoicfaux
3107
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:54:00 -
[3651] - Quote
Having different Bastion modules for different play/flying styles sounds like a good idea. Leave the base hull mostly alone and use the relevant Bastion module to tweak ship bonuses and performance.
|

Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 13:59:00 -
[3652] - Quote
Gazzine TunakTun wrote:Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? When was last response ?
Up to now story is like: 1. far from beeing perfect changes proposal 2. fix to changes makeing things even worse 3. silence ...
The third one is what worries me most. I wonder if there will be anyone brave enough and patient to go through almost 200 pages of posts and make summary.
BR,
Considering the last dev response said they were going to take some time to read up on our suggestions and get back to us with a new proposal, not hearing back for a week isn't very long. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:00:00 -
[3653] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Having different Bastion modules for different play/flying styles sounds like a good idea. Leave the base hull mostly alone and use the relevant Bastion module to tweak ship bonuses and performance.
That's basically the gist of my proposal as well. Have a base hull that is usable "as is" for most purposes and use the bastion module to apply bonuses and drawbacks to perform a specialized role. Unless I misunderstand post. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:08:00 -
[3654] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Having different Bastion modules for different play/flying styles sounds like a good idea. Leave the base hull mostly alone and use the relevant Bastion module to tweak ship bonuses and performance.
That's basically the gist of my proposal as well. Have a base hull that is usable "as is" for most purposes and use the bastion module to apply bonuses and drawbacks to perform a specialized role. Unless I misunderstand post.
difference in 'one module that you reload a different script' and 'two distinct modules of the same type'
like an interdiction maneuvers link is not a shield harmonizer link, both are command links but do different things, you need to fit one or the other to get the bonuses, you don't load a new script into the one command link to do multiple things at your convenience :D |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
404
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:13:00 -
[3655] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The only thing in high sec? Of course not. But a large chunk of it, damn right.
Have a look at any day's online population. On any given day, there is between 3% and 7% of the entire online population in the Incursion constellation. The percentage of all the high sec players, obviously higher.
If it were a large chunk... 
Your numbers are nice, but how many players of that 3 - 7 % actually run incursions? Can't be that much.
Which makes the incursion "chunk" tiny. Miniscule. More like incursion crumbs.
Face it, your bitching about the marauder changes is pointless moaning, the first iteration they would've made them just plain better.
Even with the second iteration and the pointless web bonus they're still better than before. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1511
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:22:00 -
[3656] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
The initial proposal was like, "cool!"
Then they changed it and the answer has been like "oh sh*t" in most posts since.
Is there a message?
I think yes.
Message 1: no, the new proposal is not liked by players. Message 2: yes, the initial proposal was liked better. Message 3: why did someone suggest the devs that they should make proposal 2 instead of 1? Who was? Not someone who posted here to defend proposal 2... maybe was the CSM " "representatives" "?
Luckily CCP understands that game balancing involving spaceships/character classes is not so much about what players "like" as it is about creating a functional game that is enjoyable as a whole. Let's imagine chessonline as an example. Chess developers would be faced with the challenge of the King underperforming, and being less used than the Queen. They post their initial ideas to forums.chessonline.com, and OUTRAEGGG111!!! follows! These people want the King to have movable arms and blinking eyes, castling with any other piece and unlimited movement. Turns out that the players giving the most vocal feedback avoid all human contact and prefer to play against AI on Training-level difficulty, and equally interested in dressing up their Kings with Ken clothes and playing with it, rather than actually trying to defeat their human opponents on the chessboard. Oh the irony in this post, you just described how we came to iteration number 2.
Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:23:00 -
[3657] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Ms. Ambraelle has some interesting proposals, but I wonder: just how much of that stuff is codeable within current EVE engine without requiring massive code rewriting that can presumably take years. The two major departures from know features are the 50/100km MJD and the hitpoint buffer of the beachhead version of the bastion mode. A third possible issue is the turret signature resolution reduction as I'm not sure that is a bonusable statistic currently. To be honest, I'd be happy with the base hull and just the CWS version of bastion. The beachhead version of bastion might be better served as its own ship class. I just didn't want to leave the brawling or short range weapon users out in the cold for the Marauder class. all easily changeable bar the MJD which will need supporting UI code in order to access the function of altering range, by far the best solution to date, however i would suggest swapping the 50% self rep bonus for remote rep, for the reason that if the idea is to act as a 'door breaching charge' you're not going to be able to tank yourself, may as well give reason to fit RR in high slots. logic being aggressive fits will then fit 1-2 RR mods and 1 vampire/nuet, where long range ships will tend to sport out right RR mods (local reps in PVP (particularly on battleship scale) are a waste of space in most cases - so the preference is to rely on remote aid regardless of the fight you're in) if you're gonna design an RR battleship hull may aswell make it a focus for both modes - and the close range mode will need it far more than long range, so if you want to lock out RR for one, swap the two and make the long range doctrine RR immune (they're already out of dps range as it is, no reason to make them harder to kill, and the close range ships will have neuts to worry about) assuming you are still vulnerable to targeted ECM etc in close range mode, sensor dampeners will decimate this ships functionality in close quarters, as will tracking disruptors (though to a lesser degree) - as was pointed out to me by vendetta a few days ago, be careful limiting targeting range because that 25 k 'max range' will drop to less than 10 very quickly, making the ship all but worthless - it's ok to have them vulnerable to ewar just be cautious. cruisers and frigates carry lots of those mods and you don't want to shift from 'has a weakness to' to 'is completely screwed against' just cuz one frigate happened to carry a sensor damp - you'll need a bit of room on either side. finally: do not script this, have two distinct modules - so before you leave dock you must pick one or the other and cannot swap between both on the fly - this will ensure that you're locked into one style of strengths and weaknesses for the duration of the flight while changing between doctrines is great with the strengths you propose being able to alter between them with only a minute or two's notice without leaving the field (or using a carrier/etc) is a bit much. again, well compiled collection of the better suggestions here Great feedback here. I'll try to describe the roles for each bastion module and how I can see them being used. If there's a better or more balanced way to get there I'm all about it.
CWS (long range) I want a CWS fit Marauder to be "better" than a T1, faction, or pirate hull when deployed at range in a few aspects:
- Faster locking times
- Better range
- Better damage projection and through projection increased application
- Situationally better mobility through MJD use
- Less disruption from EWAR
The drawbacks to this increased performance over T1, faction, and pirate hulls should center around:
- Immobility during enhancement
- More susceptible to getting caught by close range opponents
The loss of incoming RR would make them far weaker than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls deployed at the same distances. I'm not sure the better application on somewhat equivalent raw damage would overcome this drawback.
Beachhead I really like your suggestion of swapping the self-rep bonus on the beachhead version for a bonus to RR amount. However, I'm not sure it would make sense for a ship to be able to disrupt others RR in an area while having a bonus to their own outgoing RR. It would make it much more useful in the role of "landing pad" though. Beachhead Marauder posts up in the enemy's line disrupting their RR chains while his buddies land. He would then be able to provide short range RR to them as they engage. The limited range on those RR modules would balance it out pretty well. Here's what I'd like them to do in their roles:
- Create a small pocket of space that is undesirable for the enemy to remain within. This does not have to mean it's the Marauder being deadly but provides a disadvantage for remaining
- Have enough temporary staying power to enable holding on till help arrives but now be invincible in small group engagements
- This is really geared towards "owning" a piece of land for a short period of time for a strategic purpose
It's a fine line between commanding a location strategically and just being over powered. I didn't want the Marauder's raw damage to go up in this situation but be able to better apply it to any that might be within a limited range. I'm kind of OK with the weakness to damps and an already restricted range. There needs to be some kind of counter strategy available that doesn't require "bring more ships" :) |

stoicfaux
3107
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:30:00 -
[3658] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Having different Bastion modules for different play/flying styles sounds like a good idea. Leave the base hull mostly alone and use the relevant Bastion module to tweak ship bonuses and performance.
That's basically the gist of my proposal as well. Have a base hull that is usable "as is" for most purposes and use the bastion module to apply bonuses and drawbacks to perform a specialized role. Unless I misunderstand post. difference in 'one module that you reload a different script' and 'two distinct modules of the same type' like an interdiction maneuvers link is not a shield harmonizer link, both are command links but do different things, you need to fit one or the other to get the bonuses, you don't load a new script into the one command link to do multiple things at your convenience :D Scripts, different modules, T3 subsystems, rigs, it's the same idea. Instead of being locked into a hull that is dedicated to a particular role or play style (e.g. PVE, PVP,) just give the players more customization options. Trying to make a hull's bonuses, which are set in stone, support multiple roles/play styles, or even going so far as to change the original use of the hull, tends to make things complicated[1] as we've seen with the proposed web bonus and T2 resists.
[1] i.e. balance, power creep, torches and pitchforks...
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
361
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:35:00 -
[3659] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gazzine TunakTun wrote:Guys, don't you have impression that DEVs have forgotten this topic long time ago ? No, I think right now they're just a little bit sad, maybe even depressed. They had this really cool and new Idea and for sub caps it was really unique and it would've given the marauder a totally new role, apart from it's previous occupation. But all they received was 180 pages of nerd rage, whining and hate... So I guess they'll be drunk and depressed for another week or so before they (hopefully) recover and get back to some marauder iteration that is closer to what they wanted to do before lots of guys clogged this thread with their "I wanna have a web bonus! Marauders are now crap because I can't use them in incursions anymore! I refuse any change at all!" whine threads. Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous. damn..i hope they dont EMORAGEQUIT over nerd bashing... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:42:00 -
[3660] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Wedgetail wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Having different Bastion modules for different play/flying styles sounds like a good idea. Leave the base hull mostly alone and use the relevant Bastion module to tweak ship bonuses and performance.
That's basically the gist of my proposal as well. Have a base hull that is usable "as is" for most purposes and use the bastion module to apply bonuses and drawbacks to perform a specialized role. Unless I misunderstand post. difference in 'one module that you reload a different script' and 'two distinct modules of the same type' like an interdiction maneuvers link is not a shield harmonizer link, both are command links but do different things, you need to fit one or the other to get the bonuses, you don't load a new script into the one command link to do multiple things at your convenience :D Scripts, different modules, T3 subsystems, rigs, it's the same idea. Instead of being locked into a hull that is dedicated to a particular role or play style (e.g. PVE, PVP,) just give the players more customization options. Trying to make a hull's bonuses, which are set in stone, support multiple roles/play styles, or even going so far as to change the original use of the hull, tends to make things complicated[1] as we've seen with the proposed web bonus and T2 resists. [1] i.e. balance, power creep, torches and pitchforks... If they made a T2 battleship line that was designed for CQ engagements, I'd drop the beachhead module in a heartbeat and start a new training plan. You really only have BLOPS and Marauders as T2 battleship options. BLOPS have a nice, defined role to them. The more combat oriented roles are left to the Marauder class as it stands. Break out range and CQ roles into separate classes and I'm right behind you. |
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:48:00 -
[3661] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Great feedback here. I'll try to describe the roles for each bastion module and how I can see them being used. If there's a better or more balanced way to get there I'm all about it. CWS (long range) I want a CWS fit Marauder to be "better" than a T1, faction, or pirate hull when deployed at range in a few aspects:
- Faster locking times
- Better range
- Better damage projection and through projection increased application
- Situationally better mobility through MJD use
- Less disruption from EWAR
The drawbacks to this increased performance over T1, faction, and pirate hulls should center around:
- Immobility during enhancement
- More susceptible to getting caught by close range opponents
The loss of incoming RR would make them far weaker than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls deployed at the same distances. I'm not sure the better application on somewhat equivalent raw damage would overcome this drawback. Beachhead I really like your suggestion of swapping the self-rep bonus on the beachhead version for a bonus to RR amount. However, I'm not sure it would make sense for a ship to be able to disrupt others RR in an area while having a bonus to their own outgoing RR. It would make it much more useful in the role of "landing pad" though. Beachhead Marauder posts up in the enemy's line disrupting their RR chains while his buddies land. He would then be able to provide short range RR to them as they engage. The limited range on those RR modules would balance it out pretty well. Here's what I'd like them to do in their roles:
- Create a small pocket of space that is undesirable for the enemy to remain within. This does not have to mean it's the Marauder being deadly but provides a disadvantage for remaining
- Have enough temporary staying power to enable holding on till help arrives but not be invincible in small group engagements
- This is really geared towards "owning" a piece of land for a short period of time for a strategic purpose
It's a fine line between commanding a location strategically and just being over powered. I didn't want the Marauder's raw damage to go up in this situation but be able to better apply it to any that might be within a limited range. I'm kind of OK with the weakness to damps and an already restricted range. There needs to be some kind of counter strategy available that doesn't require "bring more ships" :)
aye nothing against 'increase ours while decreasing theirs (see energy vampires :D )
and the advantage to being at long range is the enemy can't hit you - and there are two primary ways to deal with this:
the first is to hit at the same range with heavy guns, (alpha fleet doctrine) - RR "cannot stop" alpha strikes anyway, and i'm already EWAR immune so it's not like they can jam me out or anything to mitigate my dps long enough to get a warp in for the second option, which is to crash tackle them with a blink warp (the original inspiration behind the MJD) - my defense is my range and insane damage application.
as for the close range setup:
- vulnerable to enemy energy warfare, -vulnerable to enemy ECM -vulnerable to enemy TD and damps -vulnerable to being bumped by fast/heavy tackle
-under an intense amount of enemy firepower (fighting at close range means everything on the field can hit you)
my comment regarding the damps was that if i get damped i loose RR, i loose my ability to counter attack and all i can then do is sit there and die, there's a great deal of pressure sources coming at me at those ranges and i have to compete with all of them, doesn't take many damps to knock 100km range down to 20 - and at less than 10 i can't use RR anymore to even maintain my defense let alone my offense - very vulnerable from outside this control zone, and so reducing weapon range significantly should be enough.
part of what makes an area of space undesirable to be in is that my side is more powerful than yours within this area, and nearly as powerful when you're not (as you've demonstrated an understanding of)
but there is a very very large tonnage of bricks falling down on my head from inside and beyond this area that i have to be able to endure to make this idea effective - which is why i suggested allowing the marauders an RR bonus to help alleviate some of the strain in order to remain viable - part of being a close range combatant is that you have to be able to cope with every option the enemy has on the field, as you're right in the face of all of them at the same time. |

Javius Rong
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:00:00 -
[3662] - Quote
I still don't think CCP has gotten this rebalance correct on either version. There are still a number of glaring issues IMO. The web bonus sucks for the PvE crowd across a number so ships lines. It is great for the Kronos. The velocity and maneuverability nerd is large. The golem bonuses don't make any sense. Get rid of the TP bonus...WTF. Overall the new bonus are nerd to some ships and buffs to others. The whole non-bastions mode balance needs to be rethought.
The abilities of the ship in and out of Bastion mode are hard to balance together. Fix the balance outside of Bastion mode first. Make the ships have value in both PvE and PvP. The Bastion modes can then be designed to enhance a specific performance area for situational usage. Right now it seems like the ships are being balance around solely they Bastion mode which is a situational usage mode. |

Coolmer
D00M. Northern Coalition.
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 15:21:00 -
[3663] - Quote
What u think about
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
change to
37,5% bonus to the range factor of stasis webifiers per level
so u get proper web range on bs sized ships.
Another question how cruise sized ships after rebalanced have 125m3 bandwidth and so huge drone-bays and bs in comparison just sucks, also is same question with size of cargo-bays, combat ships need separate ammo bays. |

Kara Corvinus
Empyrean Acolytes
120
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 16:59:00 -
[3664] - Quote
im not a high sec'er, but this is stupid, CCP you gave miners the orca and rorq, i thought the entire point of the marauder was to give mission runners something, and now your taking it away from them?
This is why EvE is not a sandbox, CCP should change it statement to
EVE ONLINE : You can do what ever you want / but unless your in 0.0 we don't give a F' and your games going to be mega boring....
And as for all these "don't listen to the care bears" bs posts, 90% of people in 0.0 are care bears. we all know this.
As it stands mission running is a boring repetitive cruncher running the same damn missions over & over, requiring a silly amount of SP to complete l4's properly, with such a bad isk per hour model its a joke.
you already ruined PVE team work by changing the AI so fleet composition of tanks / healers / dps is now pointless. , now your just going to place the final nail in the coffin.
Screw 0.0 , FIX EVE. make it a damn sandbox again.
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 17:19:00 -
[3665] - Quote
I support the idea of two separate bastion modules, rather than scripting. Make the pilot commit before undocking. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 17:37:00 -
[3666] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I support the idea of two separate bastion modules, rather than scripting. Make the pilot commit before undocking. Or just remove the reload function.
I'd be ok with the commitment If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
145
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:23:00 -
[3667] - Quote
Javius Rong wrote:The golem bonuses don't make any sense. Get rid of the TP bonus...WTF A target painter bonus, not useful on a missile ship? what are you smoking? |

Damian Gene
Bloodtear Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:39:00 -
[3668] - Quote
So, perhaps I'm one of few who would be thinking about this slightly differently, but...
How effective would this be for taking out POS's and POS mods?
A. Highsec Towers? B. Cyno Jammers?
When I first read this "mini dread" idea, I thought that perhaps that is some, most, or all, of the new defined role?
How long would it take to remove a highsec offline tower with 10 (a full squad) of these? How long would it take to remove a cyno jammer with 10 (a full squad) of these?
I do feel though, that perhaps you are giving it too many roles. Could you perhaps turn them into a two ship per race ship class, like command ships, ASFs, HAC,s, Transport ships, etc? I mean, unless the art department were involved... I hear they are kinda overwhelmed with work. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3381
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:42:00 -
[3669] - Quote
Kara Corvinus wrote:im not a high sec'er, but this is stupid, CCP you gave miners the orca and rorq, i thought the entire point of the marauder was to give mission runners something, and now your taking it away from them?
Mission runners can use any subcap in the game to do their thing. Marauders can be used in hisec. Where did you get the idea that they won't be able to use marauders anymore?
Quote:This is why EvE is not a sandbox, CCP should change it statement to
EVE ONLINE : You can do what ever you want / but unless your in 0.0 we don't give a F' and your games going to be mega boring....
Well the whole premise of hisec is that it's not a sandbox. You can't do what you want and have restrictions at the same time, high security is all about restrictions. Which also makes it boring. No idea how sandox relates to marauders, but your fluffy strawman distracted me there for a moment.
Quote:And as for all these "don't listen to the care bears" bs posts, 90% of people in 0.0 are care bears. we all know this.
This is partly correct. I've come to the conclusion that the biggest issue of null is that it's the only place hibears have ever heard of, and where they migrate when they get old. Wormholes and low get the talent, and nullseccers have to settle for ex-L4 runners. Luckily the guys are experienced dealing with the future nullbears, and will place them in renter alliances to produce rat ISK and fodder for F1 blobs.
Quote:As it stands mission running is a boring repetitive cruncher running the same damn missions over & over, requiring a silly amount of SP to complete l4's properly, with such a bad isk per hour model its a joke.
Silly amounts of SP, ISK, Failfitclinic.com and detailed walk-through guides can substitute for player skill in simple tasks such as L4s, true.
Quote:you already ruined PVE team work by changing the AI so fleet composition of tanks / healers / dps is now pointless. , now your just going to place the final nail in the coffin.
Well this amusing. I mean even more amusing than the rest of your rant, which as a whole is very amusing. Did you know that Sleeper/Sansha AI is especially designed to promote team work, and there's a ton of guys enjoying it all the time?
The best thing about a thriving sandbox is that there's people shifting sand all the time. Those who fail to adapt, get buried under it.
. |

Javius Rong
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:47:00 -
[3670] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Javius Rong wrote:The golem bonuses don't make any sense. Get rid of the TP bonus...WTF A target painter bonus, not useful on a missile ship? what are you smoking?
TP bonuses have been historically only been available on Minmatar ships. While the TP bonus is nice, to utilize it a module must be fitted.. So as it stands to take advantage of all the ships bonuses three mid-slots must be utilized, web, TP, MJD. This do not include any normal propulsion mod. This bonus should be an explosive radius bonus directly to missile to match the other ships and tied to a module. |
|

Neevor Airuta
Butcher's Raiders
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:54:00 -
[3671] - Quote
So to recap: First you give maruders PG revamp so they can fit long range turrets easier Then you give them bonus to MJD so they can escape to sniping range easier Then you give them module that boosts range directly. And then you swap tank bonus for Web bonus that is useful by default only at 10km range?
What's the point? What's intended usefulness outside pvp? Frigate shooting? With newly fitted long range guns? That's what drones are for!
Either give marauders tank bonus back, or if you really need to nerf that, swap it for drone bonus, or painter / ecm / damp.
Does it seem schisophrenic or am I missing something? |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 19:07:00 -
[3672] - Quote
Damian Gene wrote:So, perhaps I'm one of few who would be thinking about this slightly differently, but...
How effective would this be for taking out POS's and POS mods?
A. Highsec Towers? B. Cyno Jammers?
When I first read this "mini dread" idea, I thought that perhaps that is some, most, or all, of the new defined role?
How long would it take to remove a highsec offline tower with 10 (a full squad) of these? How long would it take to remove a cyno jammer with 10 (a full squad) of these?
I do feel though, that perhaps you are giving it too many roles. Could you perhaps turn them into a two ship per race ship class, like command ships, ASFs, HAC,s, Transport ships, etc? I mean, unless the art department were involved... I hear they are kinda overwhelmed with work.
These were actually some of the first things that people were concerned about from iteration 1. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1824
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 19:26:00 -
[3673] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
The initial proposal was like, "cool!"
Then they changed it and the answer has been like "oh sh*t" in most posts since.
Is there a message?
I think yes.
Message 1: no, the new proposal is not liked by players. Message 2: yes, the initial proposal was liked better. Message 3: why did someone suggest the devs that they should make proposal 2 instead of 1? Who was? Not someone who posted here to defend proposal 2... maybe was the CSM " "representatives" "?
Luckily CCP understands that game balancing involving spaceships/character classes is not so much about what players "like" as it is about creating a functional game that is enjoyable as a whole. Let's imagine chessonline as an example. Chess developers would be faced with the challenge of the King underperforming, and being less used than the Queen. They post their initial ideas to forums.chessonline.com, and OUTRAEGGG111!!! follows! These people want the King to have movable arms and blinking eyes, castling with any other piece and unlimited movement. Turns out that the players giving the most vocal feedback avoid all human contact and prefer to play against AI on Training-level difficulty, and equally interested in dressing up their Kings with Ken clothes and playing with it, rather than actually trying to defeat their human opponents on the chessboard.
Oh, I get it, the players actually using the damned thing shouldn't feel entitled to be able to enjoy or use it after it's been "iterated"... 
The whole art of chessonline is to let the knights dictate how should a tower play, for the sake of the game, of course. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4626
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:16:00 -
[3674] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
The initial proposal was like, "cool!"
Then they changed it and the answer has been like "oh sh*t" in most posts since.
Is there a message?
I think yes.
Message 1: no, the new proposal is not liked by players. Message 2: yes, the initial proposal was liked better. Message 3: why did someone suggest the devs that they should make proposal 2 instead of 1? Who was? Not someone who posted here to defend proposal 2... maybe was the CSM " "representatives" "?
Luckily CCP understands that game balancing involving spaceships/character classes is not so much about what players "like" as it is about creating a functional game that is enjoyable as a whole. Let's imagine chessonline as an example. Chess developers would be faced with the challenge of the King underperforming, and being less used than the Queen. They post their initial ideas to forums.chessonline.com, and OUTRAEGGG111!!! follows! These people want the King to have movable arms and blinking eyes, castling with any other piece and unlimited movement. Turns out that the players giving the most vocal feedback avoid all human contact and prefer to play against AI on Training-level difficulty, and equally interested in dressing up their Kings with Ken clothes and playing with it, rather than actually trying to defeat their human opponents on the chessboard. Oh, I get it, the players actually using the damned thing shouldn't feel entitled to be able to enjoy or use it after it's been "iterated"...  The whole art of chessonline is to let the knights dictate how should a tower play, for the sake of the game, of course. I suppose if there had been no objections to the original proposal it would have gone through. But Incursion runners in particular weren't happy so plan B was trotted out for inspection.
It will be interesting to see if they go back to plan A, or if they have a plan C and D waiting in the wings (or more likely being iterated on based on all of our feed back). To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
356
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:21:00 -
[3675] - Quote
It wasn't just incursion runners. Anyone who could do maths could see the golem and vargur becoming idiotically powerful loltank baitships. And I don't mean in a good way. In a 40,000dps tank way!
There was no way it was going to fly, and rightly so.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:38:00 -
[3676] - Quote
Javius Rong wrote:Rowells wrote:Javius Rong wrote:The golem bonuses don't make any sense. Get rid of the TP bonus...WTF A target painter bonus, not useful on a missile ship? what are you smoking? TP bonuses have been historically only been available on Minmatar ships. While the TP bonus is nice, to utilize it a module must be fitted.. So as it stands to take advantage of all the ships bonuses three mid-slots must be utilized, web, TP, MJD. This do not include any normal propulsion mod. This bonus should be an explosive radius bonus directly to missile to match the other ships and tied to a module.
Or just take away the web bonus, which is what should happen. The Golem has always had the TP bonus.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:07:00 -
[3677] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:It wasn't just incursion runners. Anyone who could do maths could see the golem and vargur becoming idiotically powerful loltank baitships. And I don't mean in a good way. In a 40,000dps tank way!
There was no way it was going to fly, and rightly so.
Pretty much this. I didn't understand either until I started running the numbers for myself. I thought my spreadsheet was broken lol. Thus my signature. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
318
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:30:00 -
[3678] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote: Pretty much this. I didn't understand either until I started running the numbers for myself. I thought my spreadsheet was broken lol. Thus my signature.
They don't have the capacitor or EHP to back it up tho - relatively easy to neut that tank off and unless it has approaching capital levels of EHP that 40K dps tank isn't (always) very useful in situations where your actually taking a good percentage of that dps. Granted it does mean you need a half decently setup fleet to take them down. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
166
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:32:00 -
[3679] - Quote
Due to a number of factors, I've pumped 186 hours into Borderlands 2 in the last 2 weeks. It's a game I can play when extremely exhausted, and game death, unlike in EvE, is a lot less punishing.
Anyway, as far as PvE, my brain has been comparing combats between EVE and BL2, and what comes out is that, regardless of how interesting you make the Marauder hulls, PvE will still be mind numbingly dull. I know, I used to run L4's in a badly fitted and skilled Drake, often taking hours in missions like Pirate Scarlet or Angels Extravaganza, barely breaking tank on the named battleships, only possible at all because of advanced knowledge of missions, from running them over and over.
The PvE missions - ALL missions - are too rigidly scripted. For most, It's no different then sitting on a rooftop sniping at people coming out of houses, or if you're in close, having enough DPS to just shotgun them in the face as they open the door. There is quite a number of really cool ones, but I only get those rarely, and again, it wears off after the 10th time.
Unless the PvE enviroment is made more dynamic, and starts acting more in a Borderland 2 way with Badasses and Loot Midgets - well, NOT that, I think you know what I mean, our current equivalent would be special ships unexpectedly popping in, or unexpected reinforcements appearing, or rail ships popping up far away instead of a close by spawn, etc etc - things like Bastion will be, well, dull anyway.
If DEEP space was actually teeming with weird arsed PvE situations, then jumping into "a ship designed for deep deployment in hostile space" would make perfect sense, but what we are doing is shooting chickens in a shed, we are running a predictable, scripted event using optimal resources in order to maximize an income we use for EVE core gameplay, ie, PvP.
Marauders needs to be looked at AFTER PvE improvements and THEN changed AGAIN every time the PvE environment is improved. Right now it will be just changes "cause everything else is also being changed".
Just my opinion, of course.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:33:00 -
[3680] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:It wasn't just incursion runners. Anyone who could do maths could see the golem and vargur becoming idiotically powerful loltank baitships. And I don't mean in a good way. In a 40,000dps tank way!
There was no way it was going to fly, and rightly so.
yeah that's pretty much why I liked is, nealy wet myself when those numbers showd up.
massive **** tease If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
357
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:07:00 -
[3681] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote: Pretty much this. I didn't understand either until I started running the numbers for myself. I thought my spreadsheet was broken lol. Thus my signature.
They don't have the capacitor or EHP to back it up tho - relatively easy to neut that tank off and unless it has approaching capital levels of EHP that 40K dps tank isn't (always) very useful in situations where your actually taking a good percentage of that dps. Granted it does mean you need a half decently setup fleet to take them down.
"it's relatively easy to take down this one ship with a half decently set up fleet..." means one thing and one thing alone - this one ship is a game-breaking abomination that will ultimately cause players to flee in droves.
The players getting pwned by this one ship will get bored of never winning, and for the pilot of the ship, pvp will become as mind-numbingly dull as PVE - at which point, unless he himself is mind-numbingly dull, he will leave the game for something better.
This is why version 1 marauders could not be allowed to happen, and why the bastion module is going to be extremely difficult for CCP to balance.
For local tankers, there is a very fine line between 'can survive for more than a few seconds when faced with multiple enemies' and 'horribly, game-breakingly overpowered'.
This problem will never go away because of the way that local damage mitigation [does not] scale with the number of enemies.
As for the capacitor issue - you just don't need cap. A dual XL-ASB is all you need. You can even fit cargohold rigs and mods to create an irritatingly large supply of cap boosters to feed them.
This of course does not affect the armour ships, since they have to trade cargohold for both rep amount and resitances.
If CCP want marauders to work, step 1 is *very simple*:
* Limit ASBs to 1 per ship
This actually solves more problems than just marauders.
I cannot fathom why they have not done this. It's just so obvious.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1511
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:11:00 -
[3682] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:It wasn't just incursion runners. Anyone who could do maths could see the golem and vargur becoming idiotically powerful loltank baitships. And I don't mean in a good way. In a 40,000dps tank way!
There was no way it was going to fly, and rightly so.
Try doing that with a T2 setup. You can't balance ships around deadspace/faction/officer mods.
The ASB problem adds to this as well. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:50:00 -
[3683] - Quote
By the end of all this "NUMBERS!one!one!!!one" talk, and all this whining, they are just going to nerf it into oblivion to satisfy all the parties. |

Darkwolf
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:53:00 -
[3684] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:If CCP want marauders to work, step 1 is *very simple*:
* Limit ASBs to 1 per ship
This actually solves more problems than just marauders.
I cannot fathom why they have not done this. It's just so obvious.
^ This. Those damn things seem to change so many setups from "pretty decent" to "totally overpowered". The module itself is OK, when there's only one of them. More than one and they become a serious problem.
Limiting them to one per ship would be a good step. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 00:34:00 -
[3685] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:If CCP want marauders to work, step 1 is *very simple*:
* Limit ASBs to 1 per ship
This actually solves more problems than just marauders.
I cannot fathom why they have not done this. It's just so obvious. ^ This. Those damn things seem to change so many setups from "pretty decent" to "totally overpowered". The module itself is OK, when there's only one of them. More than one and they become a serious problem. Limiting them to one per ship would be a good step.
AMEN |

Cage Man
259
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 00:38:00 -
[3686] - Quote
Can't say I am happy with the new suggested changes. You basically forcing Marauder pilots to use the bastion by taking away their local boost bonus's. You also want to almost force pilots to use the MJD, which really isn't practical, unless of course you plan on putting all the mission gates exactly 100KM apart ?
Any thoughts on letting the Kronos use 5 sentries and perhaps carry 5 sentries and 5 lights? Give the drone pilots something to play with also.
my 2 isk... The thick plottens... |

Adunh Slavy
1247
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 02:39:00 -
[3687] - Quote
Looks like an interesting idea has been pre-nerfed into meh. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:03:00 -
[3688] - Quote
Just Checking in on this thread.....
Still facepalming at proposed changes.
A brick tank defense module that makes you stop to use it is useless, you're nerfing the current hulls to make it useful, i'd rather see them not changed at all than this proposal. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
167
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:11:00 -
[3689] - Quote
In the opinion of people here, with the current changes, would a small gang of Marauders be able to deal with sleepers in Bastion mode? I don't have experience with sleepers, well, other then getting blown up on SiSi. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
761
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 04:42:00 -
[3690] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:In the opinion of people here, with the current changes, would a small gang of Marauders be able to deal with sleepers in Bastion mode? I don't have experience with sleepers, well, other then getting blown up on SiSi.
If "unable to receive remote reps" means the same thing that "immunity to EWAR" does, namely that capacitor doesn't count, then yes, probably, if the triggers are managed and you don't wind up with too many sleeper battleships on grid, and if there's no capital escalation. (It seems to be the consensus here that it does, but I'm being safe.)
If they can't get cap transfers in bastion mode, well, I hope they have huge passive/ASB tanks and capless weapons, or else a cargo hold full of cap boosters. Sleepers can alpha your ship's cap. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
504
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 04:53:00 -
[3691] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:You also want to almost force pilots to use the MJD, which really isn't practical, unless of course you plan on putting all the mission gates exactly 100KM apart? 1 minute cooldown of MJD on this ship means that you can get anywhere within 0 to 200 km radius in slightly more than one minute (between 2 jumps) as long as you don't fail basic geometry (and can estimate angles decently). As I've posted already, I wouldn't mind if tactical overlay had an option to help with that last bit. |

Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 05:49:00 -
[3692] - Quote
I have a great idea (mb not only me). What if mjd range will depend on when you activate mjd second time? Like: You turn on mjd. If you do nothing you'll jump at 100km. If you activate mjd once more (while cycle on) you will jump proportionally of time mjd was active. If you turn of mjd after 30% of cycle time you will jump at 30km. Or make 1-st 50% deadzone. So your min jump will be 50km. Ofc this only for marauders :) |

Invader Kaz
Los Lobos del Inferno The Revenant Order
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 07:25:00 -
[3693] - Quote
If there are no bonusses on torp range for the GOLEM.. this is a useless post.. not even if they put twice the amount of torp launchers on.. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
406
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 08:38:00 -
[3694] - Quote
Invader Kaz wrote:If there are no bonusses on torp range for the GOLEM.. this is a useless post.. not even if they put twice the amount of torp launchers on.. There you go:
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
- Golem stats line 3. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

BrutalButFair
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
80
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 08:51:00 -
[3695] - Quote
Funny how transforming into bastion mode increases the weight 10 times!!!! it's like making weight out of nothing. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
406
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 08:58:00 -
[3696] - Quote
BrutalButFair wrote:Funny how transforming into bastion mode increases the weight 10 times!!!! it's like making weight out of nothing. 
Artificial gravity - Science Fiction Rocks!
They removed that feature so nobody could abuse it to close wormholes faster.
It was initially intended to prevent marauders from being bumped far away when in bastion mode. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
267
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 09:32:00 -
[3697] - Quote
Quote:I suppose if there had been no objections to the original proposal it would have gone through. But Incursion runners in particular weren't happy so plan B was trotted out for inspection.
Yeah, what we need is more easy ISK.  New CQ prototype |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 09:53:00 -
[3698] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Quote:I suppose if there had been no objections to the original proposal it would have gone through. But Incursion runners in particular weren't happy so plan B was trotted out for inspection. Yeah, what we need is more easy ISK. 
How is making marauders better (while still keeping them worse than pirate BS for incursions) an additional way for easy ISK?
In other words: What are you smoking, sir? |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
132
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 09:53:00 -
[3699] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:BrutalButFair wrote:Funny how transforming into bastion mode increases the weight 10 times!!!! it's like making weight out of nothing.  Artificial gravity - Science Fiction Rocks! They removed that feature so nobody could abuse it to close wormholes faster. It was initially intended to prevent marauders from being bumped far away when in bastion mode.
This aaaaand they should redo the "physics" already. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
406
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 10:50:00 -
[3700] - Quote
Since the mass increase for bastion mode deployment has been removed, it's time for a fun new EVE pasttime.
You can also turn it into a contest.
This is the game:
You'll need
- one deployed marauder in bastion mode per team participating
- One random canister 100km away (or any other fun distance)
- And at least one (preferrably) well tanked bumping ship per team.
The goal:
Bump the marauder of your team as close as possible to the canister before...
A) an arbitrary timer runs out (for e.g. 30 seconds) B) the bumping ship gets destroyed by the other teams marauders before the bumping timer runs out.
The rules:
The teams can either start bumping all at once (the great melee) or take turns (the gauntlet).
- During he great melee bumpers are allowed to shoot the other teams bumpers as long as the timer is on.
- During the gauntlet only one bumper per timer may be deployed all already deployed marauders may shoot the active bumper as long as the timer is on.
- The deployed marauders may never killed. --> You can howeverbum the away from the target zone. 
Who won? Or how many point do I get for doing all that crap?
- The team who's marauder is closest to the can is rewarded with 10 points.
- The second gets 5 points
- and the third gets 3 points
- The 4th and all therafter receive no additional points
Now the fun part (it's easier if all teams use battleships but it's not mandatory)
- Destroying a Pirate ship bumber awards 3 points to the team who got the killmail
- Destroning A T2 ship bumber awards 2 points to the team who got the killmail
- Destroying a T1 shup bumber awards 1 points to the team who got the killmail
- The team who "accidentally" destroyed one of the deployed marauders looses 4 points
- The team who lost a deployed marauder gets 2 points
What now?
You can play as many rounds as you like or until you run out of ships. Have fun!  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 11:00:00 -
[3701] - Quote
Love it. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 11:14:00 -
[3702] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Love it. If you use a golem and a vargur you can call it "bumping uglies"
Sounds like a title for a po*n movie... |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
408
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 11:53:00 -
[3703] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Love it. If you use a golem and a vargur you can call it "bumping uglies" Sounds like a title for a po*n movie...
Just like Pacific Rim.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 12:24:00 -
[3704] - Quote
The team who lost a deployed marauder gets 2 points (Note: you can self destruct your own marauder to award your team 2 points)
Why, think of it " YEAH, SUCK IT LOOSES....shite!" If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
410
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 13:01:00 -
[3705] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:"The team who lost a deployed marauder gets 2 points (Note: you can self destruct your own marauder to award your team 2 points)"
Why, think of it " YEAH, SUCK IT LOOSES....shite!"
You should encourage that sort of thing.
It'll be awesome.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 13:15:00 -
[3706] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
8 days wo a blue
just give us a notice what you are brainstorming about. maybe theres some constructive feedback in the storm of feedback youll get. |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 13:27:00 -
[3707] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:CCP Rise wrote: In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/
8 days wo a blue just give us a notice what you are brainstorming about. maybe theres some constructive feedback in the storm of feedback youll get.
Yeah, a further notice of acknowledgement would be kinda cool.
Also, please open a new thread if you make another iteration. This threadnaught is kinda huge allready. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
414
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 13:53:00 -
[3708] - Quote
All hail mini-dreadnought thread-nought!! http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 15:48:00 -
[3709] - Quote
Just thought of an idea (assuming it hasn't already been mentioned) for the rep/web bonus that might placate au naturel marauder pilots and the Bastion supporters. Let the marauders keep the 7.5% rep/level bonus, when Bastion module is turned on it gets replaced with a 20% rep/level bonus. Give the bastion module the web (range?) bonus. Current PvE pilots lose nothing this way, with some other tweaking actually end up with an improved PvE ship. Likewise, Bastion pilots get their mini-dreads that require a bit of a SP investment to be able to fully utilize. |

Yverlyn Outamon
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 15:51:00 -
[3710] - Quote
If these boneheaded bastion stuff go through may we who trained Marauders to 5 for its original PvE purposes get their sp back? I mean I could use it for more useful purposes like getting cloaking to 5 or TSM to 5. Or maybe train Cit torps. I mean they-¦ll be useful before Marauders if this go through. |
|

JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
278
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 18:49:00 -
[3711] - Quote
Yverlyn Outamon wrote:If these boneheaded bastion stuff go through may we who trained Marauders to 5 for its original PvE purposes get their sp back? I mean I could use it for more useful purposes like getting cloaking to 5 or TSM to 5. Or maybe train Cit torps. I mean they-¦ll be useful before Marauders if this go through. 
hahahahahaaha
MATE |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 19:21:00 -
[3712] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:
*Edit* Also, for those curious, I'm going to try and get started on my little challenge tonight. I'm currently looking at around 2100-2200 EDT/0100-0200 Eve, assuming I make it all the way home.
Ill be comprehensively sh**faced by that time so ill be relying on YouTube for this, any notion which one your Gona start with? If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Temuken Radzu
Bendebeukers Northern Associates.
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 20:27:00 -
[3713] - Quote
I too would like to see 2 different transformation modules.
One is the Bastion: maximum defence, maximum damage aplication, low mobility First version i liked best but maybe a speed reduction would be better so it isnt a completely stationary target. Speed reduction of 50% instead of 100%, Afterburners, micowarpdrives and microjumpdrives still can't be activated
The second should be completely different: Maximum attack, maximum speed. Decreased agility and damage resistence.
I present: The Juggernought module: When activated gives a 300% rate of fire for turrets and missles for 40 sec in addition to a 50% increase in speed and -50% decrease in agility. Cap recharge rate is also increased by 50% and the maurauder is immune for cap warfare. Armor and shield resistence module effectivenes is decreased by 75%. After the activation the module gets in a cooldown of 3 min. |

MBizon Osis
State War Academy Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 02:04:00 -
[3714] - Quote
Good luck all I hope you all get what you want. I lost interest in this and wont fly a paladin that is less than what it is now. So I sold it yesterday. Again good luck and fly safe MB
|

Job Valador
Super Moose Defence Force
243
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 02:20:00 -
[3715] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Good luck all I hope you all get what you want. I lost interest in this and wont fly a paladin that is less than what it is now. So I sold it yesterday. Again good luck and fly safe MB
I have to admit i was a bit excited about this bastion mod tanking bad ass they first thought of. now removing the tanking bonuses? No thank you now. Ill just skill for something else that is actually usefull "The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement." |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1828
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 09:38:00 -
[3716] - Quote
Job Valador wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:Good luck all I hope you all get what you want. I lost interest in this and wont fly a paladin that is less than what it is now. So I sold it yesterday. Again good luck and fly safe MB
I have to admit i was a bit excited about this bastion mod tanking bad ass they first thought of. now removing the tanking bonuses? No thank you now. Ill just skill for something else that is actually usefull
I seriosuly hope CCP Ytterbium & al still are working on this, because the second proposal is a trainwreck and would kill marauders. Nobody has said it's OK, even the more positive reviews ask for further bonuses. And most feedback is quite bad.
Also, I personally still wonder who (CSM?) told the devs that the web bonus was desirable. Because whoever he was, he hasn't come here to share the "reasoning" behind his "enlightened" opinion. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

SevenOfSix
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:11:00 -
[3717] - Quote
If we are trying to make them more PVP friendly, maybe Bastion mode should add range, resists, ewar immunity, reduced mobility, increase armor shield structure, and NO local rep (only remote reps when in Bastion). Keep the 7.5 repair on the hull for missions.
I don't know
The first iteration looks better than the second, why would I want a web if I'm going to be jumping 100k away? |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:29:00 -
[3718] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Job Valador wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:Good luck all I hope you all get what you want. I lost interest in this and wont fly a paladin that is less than what it is now. So I sold it yesterday. Again good luck and fly safe MB
I have to admit i was a bit excited about this bastion mod tanking bad ass they first thought of. now removing the tanking bonuses? No thank you now. Ill just skill for something else that is actually usefull I seriosuly hope CCP Ytterbium & al still are working on this, because the second proposal is a trainwreck and would kill marauders. Nobody has said it's OK, even the more positive reviews ask for further bonuses. And most feedback is quite bad. Also, I personally still wonder who (CSM?) told the devs that the web bonus was desirable. Because whoever he was, he hasn't come here to share the "reasoning" behind his "enlightened" opinion. Speak for yourself - there's a lot of people who actually make use of the 90% web bonus, the first proposal that 'binned' them without explanation rightly got a lot of stick.
Granted that is 2 out of 4 ships, but you really are stretching things with your claim.
Edit: Blanket bonus across all four ships was probably not the best move, but then neither was stripping off the existing two.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
240
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:33:00 -
[3719] - Quote
SevenOfSix wrote:If we are trying to make them more PVP friendly, maybe Bastion mode should add range, resists, ewar immunity, reduced mobility, increase armor shield structure, and NO local rep (only remote reps when in Bastion). Keep the 7.5 repair on the hull for missions.
I don't know
The first iteration looks better than the second, why would I want a web if I'm going to be jumping 100k away?
I got the strong feelings this great web-bonus and great-bastion mode (within borders ofc) are intended to mostly cancel each other out. Saw that new *thing* already with the deimos and the vagabond, both receiving local-tank boni though both are more regularly flown with buffertanks (twin LSEs for the vaga and plate or LSE+invuln being the most used for those two). Nonetheless, the ships are great, even having only 3 instead of 4 bonus'ed attributes in comparison to the other tech-II hulls
Looking at marauders (golem for example), you could go for a shortrangefit using torps with insane dps and thanks to 80%web+50%painter quite the great addition to both your own and your gang's damage application, leaving out the bastiontransformerthingyTM and go with 2 smartbombs, 2 neuts to add some heavy utility (to your gang) while profiting strongly by higher effective remote reps thanks to tech-II-resist-profile. Anyways, you'd in this config end up with a battleship covering multiple niches (antidrone bombing, heavy neuting of kiting cruisers, webbing/painting of primaries, great damageoutput) that only lacks a good deal of base hitpoints in comparison to other battleships. You'd obviously use this with basis or RR-tengus. or you could instead fit up a golem for longrange engagements, fitting MJD/capbooster/local tank and the bastionthingy, rounding up with cruises and fit 3 small neuts to push down scramblefrigs' cap. You'd MJD every 60 seconds, could apply damage (though delayed) anywhere within 250km and go for your high volleydamage but only using the TP out to the first 100ish km out. You'd obviously fly this together with a ververyvery small skirmish-roundup including recon support. Falconlogi you'd say.
Both approaches would yield a totally different ship, but imo promising for pvp-scenarios atleast. WIth how strongly the higher efficiency of midslot eccm favors armortanking pvp-marauders, I'm at least confident seeing that artificial roadblock being either removed or it's resilence to atleast EC-300s brought up to any reasonable level. Looking at that enyo with his one EC-300, permajamming <.< Flatout saying that bonused webs are bad mkay isn't cutting it imo. They are absolutely great for what you get leaving out the bastionthingy from start!
Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:34:00 -
[3720] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Good question. If someone has a database of completion times that we can use as a standard, that would be swell. Otherwise I'll see what I can do to get some quick averages. I will probably do a few trial runs to get an idea of how much time I'm going to need as I'm going to try and do the missions back to back. I will be skipping courier missions. This toon has 100m+ SP, not all related skills are at V but a good chunk of them are. I am going to make it a bit more challenging and limit the fits to T1/T2/Meta modules. Faction charges, implants, nanite repair paste, rigs, and combat boosters* are fair game. I won't be using off-grid boosts, fleet window will be visible as proof. I'll also be using out of game tools to appropriately prepare for and run the missions just as anyone else can. No mission will be blitzed and I'll make a reasonable effort to obtain keys for bonus rooms. I have no idea what my standings are, but I'm going to try to run the missions in the appropriate faction space for the ship. Since warping out will count as a failure for the ship, I will not be warping out. I'm interpreting "Most of the ships" as any amount greater than 60%. So to complete the challenge, I will need to successfully run 10 missions without warping out a single time in at least eight of the twelve T1 hulls. Once I have a metric for reasonable completion times, I will be able to compare those as well to determine if I successfully completed that portion of the challenge. Did I miss anything? With some luck I won't be kicked from my corp for doing this.  *I can use combat boosters at any time. If I have not yet requested the first mission out of the ten, I can consume boosters until I get favorable results. If I wait for a combat booster to expire after requesting the first mission, the wait time will be added to the mission time clock. This applies as well if I can't do the missions back to back. For example, if I stop after the fourth mission, I can't consume boosters until I get favorable results before requesting/starting the fifth. *Edit* Alliance/Corp ops will take precedence over this challenge. So if a ping goes out and I need to abandon a mission, I will restart the mission after DT has passed. *Edit 2* Added rigs as fair game as well since I forgot about them while making the post originally.
Woops, I take a few days off from the thread and fun stuff happens. Sorry, real life called and I can't exactly take a break from that.
I would like to add one request, that you not use the Micro Jump Drive for this since the objective is to see if these battleships can tank these missions and while I'm quite a proponent of "range tanking" I don't think that qualifies for these purposes.
If you can please do upload the videos to Youtube and make them public if you can. Should be an educational experience for everyone.
Also to clarify, I'm happy to be proven wrong here, I'm just speaking from my own experiences. Worst case we have a new T1 Battleship missioning how-to now.  |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:37:00 -
[3721] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Some day I would like to be the 201st dude just for fun, but now I'm more interested in their WH Anomaly application.
Just noticed CCP want's to further nerf +4% resist bonus. Because it's to strong. Which ships have those bonuses? Amarr and Caldari. Are they that good at PvP?
Also CCP want's to buff local repair. Which ships have those bonuses? Gallente and Minamatar. Are they bad in PvP?
So it's basicaly a nerf to Amarr and Caldari ships which are not that great at PvP and buff to Gallente and Minamatar which are dominant reces in PvP.
In AT 13 it was allready all-Gallente... are CCP staff secretly Gallentians?
Actually a ton of people still do incursions and the community seems to keep growing.
As to this supposed nerf I haven't found any reference or hint toward it beyond the standard boilerplate of "we'll be keeping an eye on this change to see what develops and determine if further tweaks are necessary"
The probably with the old 5% resists is that they were pretty much flat better than the repair bonus, providing almost the same benefit to local repair but with a wider application that extends to fleet PvP supported by logistics. They could have buffed the repair bonuses but that likely would have thrown off small scale engagements. Besides the ships sporting said resist bonuses were already hugely popular, so the resist bonuses got toned down just a little.
Again though, not seeing anything about nerfing these again, if someone has a link that says "yeah we're nerfing these" then please post it.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Actually, we are on the 2nd pass. And with HAC's, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 passes before they showed up on Sisi. Same with command ships.
Both passes had quite a few tweaks and even a few re-works of a given hull within a thread though, so this hardly qualifies as "the second pass". As such I wouldn't expect these on the Test Server that quickly.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The only thing in high sec? Of course not. But a large chunk of it, damn right.
Have a look at any day's online population. On any given day, there is between 3% and 7% of the entire online population in the Incursion constellation. The percentage of all the high sec players, obviously higher.
I would love to know how many null sec players depend on incursions to build up their wallets to support their null sec lifestyle. (One of the low sec bloggers posted how a hundred test players rolled through his system enroute to running incursions).
So yeah, you call it rubbish. I call it fact.
CCP has made it clear that not only is it "PvP first" when designing a ship, it is "PvP ONLY". CCP wants explosions? CCP wants people (outside of the null sec cartels, who are drowning in cash) able to afford the shiny ships and supercaps?
Then they have to let people keep the tools that allow them to PvE. Right now, that is clearly not the direction that CCP is looking.
Not this many people do Incursions though...
Um, source on those stats please? They don't check out.
There are, at most, three high-sec incursions active at any given time, with, on average, 3 Vanguard, ~2 assault systems, and 1 HQ system each. Even if we assume there's at least one fleet running in each of these systems and 2 in each Vanguard system that's still only ~500 people across all three incursion systems. Since the average peak Eve population is between about 40,000 and 50,000 this is, at most, 1.2% of the player-base, and it's actually pretty rare that all three incursions are up and all three systems have a fleet in them. Even if we assume we manage this during off hours when the pop is down to about 25,000 that's still only 2% of the player base, and as a long time incursion runner I say for certain that we haven't had numbers like that in quite a while.
7% though? Highly doubt that. That would require that 3,500 people be active in incursions during prime-time or ~40,000 out of all subscribed Eve accounts.
Also from what I understand the null-sec guys close out incursions ASAP because the cyno-jammer effect screws with their logistics, in general they can make better money doing other things. That's probably what that 100 man fleet was doing.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:38:00 -
[3722] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:yes it has, my argument is based around close range sets though, so rails do not compare with autos, blasters do - truth in that blasters have been recently fixed, rails not so much (though they are much better i am agreed)
and the danger with the 200dps at 150 km is this: what's going to happen as you try to get closer?
unlike with artillery where my dps is constant and actually drops as you get closer, with autocannons it INCREASES, the more you try to approach, the more painful it gets. (i know a few people that'll laugh at the irony of me saying that XD ) the only reason this is fine now is cuz of ECM vulnerability
and if it looks like you're not going to die as you approach, i have plenty of room to simply pack up and leave - because why will i sit there and die in an 800 mil isk ship when i don't have to? - i'm not using bastion at these ranges (unless forced to by EWAR) i don't need to - so i'm more than free to move, more than free to use logi and RR - i do have incredibly low EHP tank though, so dealing with howitzers and rails will be an instant run reaction from this group - and that's normal for most dps loadouts.
hell if i really wanted, i can carry 1 TC grab a MJD and sit at 110 km and if it looks like i can win simply by jumping right in and blaping people i'll do that instead, i will never need to risk myself needlessly because my minimum performance is high enough to let me fight that way (as you say this is why i'm sitting there as my starting position: so i can leave and not lose my important ships).
it's what ccp is screaming at us to do with the current proposal, and why i said very early that marauders already do this without the shoddy little excuse for a new module, why will i use this new thing and increase risk of death when i already can do what it's supposed to let me do without it?
( side note: blops are also ridiculous for a similar risk ratio but for different reasons)
i don't want mechanics that promote easily being able to run away, or to fight without real risk, i want mechanics that force me to risk something in order to get what i want - if i can sit there at range and loose a few cruisers to kill a few of theirs then leave, i'm going to do it, eve gang PVP is bait lure and trap for hours and then 10 minutes of combat, and the bait and lures now are getting so obvious that most don't even bother if there's so much of a hint of them -.- avoid the dangerous (likely to lose) fight first and do something else is the primary response of the times
My point in this instance is that they don't have to get closer because for the number of ships you're putting on the field the DPS isn't much of a factor, you can counter it with a couple of reps. If you've got a bigger fleet then great, you've got a bigger fleet and would probably have won anyway, but if we assume roughly even numbers and similar composition but with a close-range gate-busting setup on the other side then they're going to tear through your close-range support fleet and then you've either got to run for it or hope you can take their entire fleet with those 5 Vargur plus whatever you've got left out of the rest of the fleet, where as with 5 Arty Maelstroms you'd be risking less, could fight aligned, and would likely be able to alpha small support ships off the field.
Plus your MJD while in Bastion idea makes using the ship less risky and more powerful by removing the main drawback of Bastion, the inability to escape. Can't shut off the MJD without scrams at which point you can escape a bubble camp if you can tank it for about 50 seconds, then just MJD out of the bubble and start spamming align and warp, odds are they won't be able to grab you before you're gone. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:42:00 -
[3723] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Firstly (no surprise) your EFT plot demonstrates the exact same thing as my actual testing from the linked page (3 'wrecking hits', 9 'barely scratches' 2 'lightly hits' out of 856 shots) - your plot demonstrates essentially 0 dps at 1 - 1.5km, rising to a staggering 20 dps at 2km. Now in my testing (back then) I threw in every single piece of maneuvering you could pull to minimise transversal (apologies I forgot that in the testing for the second test, the stabber had a web). Granted you can achieve a little more these days with the buff to agility, but nothing to change the overall picture drastically.
Secondly in the frigate example, you've missed off another key point - why is the Battleship not webbed? ( AB frigate: 3 mids, web/scram/AB). For the dual web scenario (again, the Kronos only has four mid slots - losing one for a second web compromises you in other areas i.e. capacitor) move away from a 1 v 1 scenario to 2 v 1 and it's simple to fight a big blaster boat in web range, even with 90% webs. Vindicator? Well, true you can fit dual webs, but why on earth would you be trying to solo something like that in a Frigate? And if you aren't solo, why are you not tackling at long point range?
In general terms though, the whole point back then (and today with the two remaining 90% platforms) was that if you were alone, you kited the big blaster boat outside of web range, which was simple as they are ultimately still a slow moving Battleship hull, and if there was more than one of you in a frigate it was (and is) simple to de-fang the thing...
'Niche' PvP application
Okay, so now I'm back with some more numbers.
First off it takes a Megathron only 6.7 seconds to lock up a Stabber with the MWD running and 12 seconds without. This basically means that if you start locking him the moment he starts burning toward you MWD hot then you shouldn't have much problem in most situations grabbing him before he can get to within 1km of your ship. If he does manage to get within 1km then you were either really slow on the lock or entirely too close when the engagement started which probably means either a gate or station, in which case you should still be able to disengage and dock/jump since we're talking about a 1v1 vs a cruiser.
On that note we're discussing a 1v1 between a Battleship and a Cruiser. Larger ships are supposed to be somewhat vulnerable to smaller ones in exchange for having a ton more HP and a decent bit more DPS.
With 90% webs neither party has any real chance of escaping or evading at which point the fight turns into a flat contest of who has a higher DPS/EHP ratio when the webs turn on. This point was made in the original dev blog on the rebalance. With only one side having these super-webs you can still maneuver but your enemy is screwed unless he's got a better DPS/EHP ratio. Yes, DPS/EHP simplifies out things a little and ignores active tank, but the point I'm trying to make is that it removes a lot of the active portion of the fight and turns it into a button pressing contest and is essentially an "I win" button against smaller ships.
Which, as you pointed out, they have a solution for with kiting, which makes me wonder why you're so worried about the 90% webs anyway...
And lastly, you could in-fact fit 2 webs with 4 midslots, but you'd have to give up something. Assuming your normal setup is a prop-mod, scram/point, web, and cap-booster you have to trade in something for that extra webbing power. Which, as we've already established, may actually be worth it in some fights, which is great because Eve is based around trade-offs. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:50:00 -
[3724] - Quote
'Niche PvP application'
You go for large blasters on a Battleship for very small scale, mostly solo reasons - you provide limited/no use in fleet scenarios, you are still very slow and therefore vulnerable to being caught by a gang, you have crummy lock time and are vulnerable to being kited.
This was the balance before, the paragraph in the old dev blog you linked never took into account these considerations (because the real focus was ludicrous kiting speeds causing issues). However roll forward to 2009 and what did CCP do to make Serpentis ships into 'proper' blaster boats? - gave them back 90% webs...
That's all I'm going to say on this - look forward to seeing how the proposed changes evolve.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 11:02:00 -
[3725] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:'Niche PvP application'
You go for large blasters on a Battleship for very small scale, mostly solo reasons - you provide limited/no use in fleet scenarios, you are still very slow and therefore vulnerable to being caught by a gang, you have crummy lock time and are vulnerable to being kited.
This was the balance before, the paragraph in the old dev blog you linked never took into account these considerations (because the real focus was ludicrous kiting speeds causing issues). However roll forward to 2009 and what did CCP do to make Serpentis ships into 'proper' blaster boats? - gave them back 90% webs...
That's all I'm going to say on this - look forward to seeing how the proposed changes evolve.
"little to no use in fleets" hardly applies these days, and with or without webs you find a ton of blaster battleships in various gate camps and small fleet ops.
The only reason you don't find them in large scale fleet PvP is the same reason you rarely find any sort of short-range weapons system in large scale fleet PvP, and that's because if someone bubbles you and then drops a sniping fleet on you you're dead, where as dropping a close-range fleet on top of your snipers is a lot harder to pull off. It can still work, but it's not exactly common.
Also you're still referencing a set of balance decisions that are over 4 years old at this point to justify your point. Said balance decisions are next on the chopping block after T2 Battleships and have been cited as a major issue for balance problems and ships "stepping on each other's toes" at pretty much every level, Frigate, Cruiser, and Battleship. Never-mind that internally within those balance decisions themselves you still have a significant case of "haves vs have-nots".
Also you completely failed to refute any of my points... |

Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 11:23:00 -
[3726] - Quote
Love it . . .
\+¦/ first pointless post!!
Then again, we can always pull the upgrades back and undo the changes . . . By creating a faction version of the maruders . . . eyyyy then we have this version . . . and the new version Pantera Home Videos:http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html-á ;http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html . |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 11:25:00 -
[3727] - Quote
no, just that I may as well be talking to the bloody wall... I've addressed your points throughout, clearly we just have a fundamental difference of opinion - you believe 90% webs are overpowered due to the ability of a short range ship to hit smaller targets up close.
I don't.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 11:53:00 -
[3728] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:no, just that I may as well be talking to the bloody wall... I've addressed your points throughout, clearly we just have a fundamental difference of opinion - you believe 90% webs are overpowered due to the ability of a short range ship to hit smaller targets up close.
I don't.
Except that your definition of "up close" is "at ridiculously short ranges" and there are counters existing in the game now to prevent a fight from ever getting to that point. In every other case though 90% webs basically say "and now I'm going to hold you in place and beat you until one of us is dead". Never mind when they're actually applied outside of your 1v1 scenario.
Besides, from the sound of it your issue is more with either Large Blasters or the turret tracking formula. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 12:51:00 -
[3729] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:[quote=Gabriel Karade]no, just that I may as well be talking to the bloody wall... I've addressed your points throughout, clearly we just have a fundamental difference of opinion - you believe 90% webs are overpowered due to the ability of a short range ship to hit smaller targets up close.
I don't.
^^ 90% web is fine....provided you have the range of a frigate and about twice the speed of a dreadnaught with a MWD X) - you get given 90% webs cuz before blaster rebalance blasters couldn't hit a damn thing, and even if they could the hulls were too slow to stay in catch-kill range of the other three races (both carry webs, both web each other out, other races still faster - break contact and run (assuming they didn't die in a plasma fire first :D ) )
cuz you can make a weapon that's got 200km range hit something that's 2 km away but you can't make a gun with 2km range hit something at 4 km let alone 200 (well, you 'can' but it's not worth trying)
the problem with web bonus on long range ships is it negates the weakpoint of getting close - and as cade has said, the ships that are trying to get close are often ships like interceptors...which can't stand up to cruisers let alone battleships with damage projection as a a focus, if you fight at long range you gotta be weak to close range, and at close range weak to long range, with range + tracking + web bonus you've pretty much got a 200km wide blanket kill zone (with rail/tach/cruise/artie loads) - these ships simply don't miss the targets when they'\re at kite ranges unless ewar has forced em to.
(as an example a vargur can grab enough tracking speed to hit a MWD tama inside their 12 km orbit w/o web assistance - yes those rats have a blown sig but i can still do it in a damn battleship 0.12r/s or 0.012 i forget the order of zeros, just know that it is ridiculously awesome to get tracking that good w/o help from another ship, if i get a web bonus too nothing smaller than a BC inside about 20 km has chance) |

Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 13:55:00 -
[3730] - Quote
Posted: 2013.09.05 23:05 - CCP Rise wrote:In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/ You need to type "SoonGäó" or people might think you actually mean "soon". Most people don't consider 2+ business weeks to be "soon". |
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 14:47:00 -
[3731] - Quote
Tlat Ij wrote:Posted: 2013.09.05 23:05 - CCP Rise wrote:In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/ You need to type "SoonGäó" or people might think you actually mean "soon". Most people don't consider 2+ business weeks to be "soon".
We don't even have a name for the next expansion yet, let them keep thinking. Hopefully we can get to 200 before they start a new thread :) |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 16:26:00 -
[3732] - Quote
I just came back after almost two years.
Before I left, I dabbled in both lowsec PVP and ran hisec carebear missions in a Vargur.
CCP is trying to fix what ain't broken. Marauders were initially designed to be carebear mission running ships. Or at least that is how they existed for years with no major complaints. To the extent they fell into disfavor, it was because the super-specialized Noctis overtook their tractor/salvage bonuses, at which point a pirate faction BS+Noctis on a dual-boxing, dual-monitor setup became superior for min-maxing carebears.
I continued using my Vargur and never trained a Noctis because I don't have that kind of dual-monitor setup (nor the space for it). Running back to grab a new ship for salvage always seemed like it was wasting a lot of align/warp time to me, and besides the design philosophy of the Vargur minimized my losses to ninja salvagers, as generally there were only frigate and maybe some cruiser wrecks left over for them even while I continued running the missions.
FWIW I used the ship's shield rep bonus to run a 4-slot tank that I fitted to be resistant to disconnects. A Vargur is expensive and my router goes on the fritz sometimes, so I didn't/don't want to lose a nearly billion-isk hull and another 7-800mil in mods because I disconnected while tackled by an NPC frigate. If I DCed, I wanted my tank to be able to sustain long enough for me to log back on. No it wasn't cap stable but several minutes was well enough for my purposes. That still left room for an AB and tracking computer; while I could've easily gone for a more aggressive 3-slot tank the more conservative fit saved my ship on at least four occasions where I had to scramble to relog into the game. Hey, if I lost my ship, I wanted it to be my fault, not my router's/ISP's! (a feeling I hope any capsuleer can understand)
Now I return to find CCP trying to repurpose my main carebear ship, and doing a poor and schizophrenic job at it.
They want to make us fit a bastion module, but they give us an extra highslot for it. That is all well and good.
But they also want to pigeonhole us into fitting MJD, but we still need to get to gates 25-40km away while our base velocity takes a heavy nerf. So that means we need two prop mods.
And now they want to shoehorn a webifier bonus, if I want the ship to synergize with its bonuses, that's 3 mids. Before the standard tracking computer, which brings us up to 4 non-tank mids on a 6-slot, shield-tanked ship.
"But--but--T2 resists and Bastion!"
First off, I run mostly in Minmatar space. Against a lot of Angels. T2 resists won't help me much against Angels, and I'm losing hardener slots to boot. And Bastion fucks up my range for reasons I will now get to...
I'm now expected to MJD to 100m away and pop stuff. (This seems to be supported by giving the Vargur enough PG to fit arties.) But the wrecks are now 50km too far for me to reach them with my tractor beams and salvage them--thereby defeating the original salvage-missions-as-you-go philosophy of the marauder class of ships. Oh, and one of our bonuses now is really only applicable to 10km range, maybe 15 if I went for moar faction bling (which I must also balance against the suicide gank risk).
Yeah that's schizophrenic. Not to mention the entire idea of fitting a ship that will still be there if you happen to DC in the bonus room of Angels Extravaganza just went out the window. Because I come back to find that CCP is re-engineering the ship class around 2 midslots getting taxed away by redesigned hull "bonuses" that don't fit with each other.
If CCP is rebalancing marauders around not staying within tractor range, then yeah any reason (that still exists over a Noctis) to take a marauder over a pirate ship for mission running just went out the window. If CCP believes marauders are obsolete for PVE because they got overshadowed by Noctis, then buff the role bonuses to tractors, maybe add a role bonus for salvaging, and see what happens.
Don't get me wrong. I see potential into what CCP is trying to do for PVP. Instantly repositioning sniper ships with lots of high slots available for cynos/neuting/smartbombing anything that gets too close? Interesting theory. Do want.
But this radical new experiment--let's call it what it is--needs to be split into a different hull like say, Sleipnir and Claymore. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
361
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 16:27:00 -
[3733] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
...big discussion about 90% webs...
90% webs only appear on 4 ship types. I think to have a rational discussion about them it's probably worth considering them in context. Of course any armour ships with 5 mid slots can simulate them (hyperion, legion, proteus in some configs), but you are correct in saying that they give up something to do that, and rightly so.
So:
kronos - the 90% web bonus is there so a 425mm railgun-fitted kronos can clear a mission without worrying about orbiting frigates. The 90% web effectiveness is somewhat compromised in pvp due to the ship's general unsuitability for pvp, so it can be largely ignored in that context.
Paladin - see kronos.
Vindicator - This ship is a pirate ship and as such is supposed to be OP in one respect. For the vindicator, it is that the last thing you ever want to do is get close to it. If you get within 10km of a vindicator, it *should be* the last thing you ever do. That's why it's worth 1Bn, and the navy dominix which can be made to do almost as much damage, is worth 500m (although I actually wonder whether the navy domi is undervalued...)
Vigilant - see vindicator. If you're engaging it in a cruiser or smaller, the last thing you want to do is let it get close. It carries a high price tag to justify this ability to be the 'last thing you get tackled by'
Note that neither the vigilant nor the vindicator are particularly strong. My tests on sisi demonstrate comprehensively to me that in a 1v1, a correctly fitted hyperion defeats a vindicator every time - whether buffered or self-repaired. It's not *that* OP. The only thing the vindi pilot can do is crawl away from the hyperion - unless the hyperion fitted dual webs.
The PVE uses of vindicators and vigilants can be ignored. Game balance around PVE is a misallocation of resources because the outcome of mission efficiency is unimportant to the overall experience of the game. The outcome of a pvp encounter is fundamental to the experience of EVE. Being on either the winning or losing end of the encounter is a very emotional experience for most.
In summary:
* 90% webs can be simulated with 2x meta-4 webs. In any fleet multi-webbing is likely to be implicit, so whether webs are 60%, 70%, 85% or 99% is actually irrelevant when there are more than 2 brawling ships available. Consider a dual-web rapier. No-one has ever claimed that it's OP.
* 90% webs in a 1v1 will only occur with a vindicator or vigilant, where they are a desirable part of the ships overall pvp character.
Thus although 90% webs look like a dangerous and overpowered feature to some, their actual effect on eve is minimal.
I would suggest that the dev team and CSM focus on the imbalance of the ASB first. That is a much more pertinent game-breaker.
/MC
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1830
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 16:56:00 -
[3734] - Quote
MuntadaralZaidi wrote:I just came back after almost two years.
Before I left, I dabbled in both lowsec PVP and ran hisec carebear missions in a Vargur.
CCP is trying to fix what ain't broken. Marauders were initially designed to be carebear mission running ships. Or at least that is how they existed for years with no major complaints. To the extent they fell into disfavor, it was because the super-specialized Noctis overtook their tractor/salvage bonuses, at which point a pirate faction BS+Noctis on a dual-boxing, dual-monitor setup became superior for min-maxing carebears.
I continued using my Vargur and never trained a Noctis because I don't have that kind of dual-monitor setup (nor the space for it). Running back to grab a new ship for salvage always seemed like it was wasting a lot of align/warp time to me, and besides the design philosophy of the Vargur minimized my losses to ninja salvagers, as generally there were only frigate and maybe some cruiser wrecks left over for them even while I continued running the missions.
FWIW I used the ship's shield rep bonus to run a 4-slot tank that I fitted to be resistant to disconnects. A Vargur is expensive and my router goes on the fritz sometimes, so I didn't/don't want to lose a nearly billion-isk hull and another 7-800mil in mods because I disconnected while tackled by an NPC frigate. If I DCed, I wanted my tank to be able to sustain long enough for me to log back on. No it wasn't cap stable but several minutes was well enough for my purposes. That still left room for an AB and tracking computer; while I could've easily gone for a more aggressive 3-slot tank the more conservative fit saved my ship on at least four occasions where I had to scramble to relog into the game. Hey, if I lost my ship, I wanted it to be my fault, not my router's/ISP's! (a feeling I hope any capsuleer can understand)
Now I return to find CCP trying to repurpose my main carebear ship, and doing a poor and schizophrenic job at it.
They want to make us fit a bastion module, but they give us an extra highslot for it. That is all well and good.
But they also want to pigeonhole us into fitting MJD, but we still need to get to gates 25-40km away while our base velocity takes a heavy nerf. So that means we need two prop mods.
And now they want to shoehorn a webifier bonus, if I want the ship to synergize with its bonuses, that's 3 mids. Before the standard tracking computer, which brings us up to 4 non-tank mids on a 6-slot, shield-tanked ship.
"But--but--T2 resists and Bastion!"
First off, I run mostly in Minmatar space. Against a lot of Angels. T2 resists won't help me much against Angels, and I'm losing hardener slots to boot. And Bastion fucks up my range for reasons I will now get to...
I'm now expected to MJD to 100m away and pop stuff. (This seems to be supported by giving the Vargur enough PG to fit arties.) But the wrecks are now 50km too far for me to reach them with my tractor beams and salvage them--thereby defeating the original salvage-missions-as-you-go philosophy of the marauder class of ships. Oh, and one of our bonuses now is really only applicable to 10km range, maybe 15 if I went for moar faction bling (which I must also balance against the suicide gank risk).
Yeah that's schizophrenic. Not to mention the entire idea of fitting a ship that will still be there if you happen to DC in the bonus room of Angels Extravaganza just went out the window. Because I come back to find that CCP is re-engineering the ship class around 2 midslots getting taxed away by redesigned hull "bonuses" that don't fit with each other.
If CCP is rebalancing marauders around not staying within tractor range, then yeah any reason (that still exists over a Noctis) to take a marauder over a pirate ship for mission running just went out the window. If CCP believes marauders are obsolete for PVE because they got overshadowed by Noctis, then buff the role bonuses to tractors, maybe add a role bonus for salvaging, and see what happens.
Don't get me wrong. I see potential into what CCP is trying to do for PVP. Instantly repositioning sniper ships with lots of high slots available for cynos/neuting/smartbombing anything that gets too close? Interesting theory. Do want.
But this radical new experiment--let's call it what it is--needs to be split into a different hull like say, Sleipnir and Claymore.
That's one good post, albeit i don't share your POV (the Noctis totally blasts marauders out of the water, they can't compete with 4x tractor + 4x salvager) and further I'm a sniper so the MJD bonus is sweet to me.
That said, my marauder is a Golem (and i replaced it for pirate BS ages ago) and the idea of using tank slots for webbers is completely silly in my book. We need bonuses that don't rely on wasting tank slots, period. And in my view, the marauder class "beauty" should be to excel both in ranged (class bonus) and close (bastion bonus) combat. The class asks a hefty price to users, and should reward them in kind.
BTW, with a MJD bonus, you can double-jump your way to a gate faster than otherwise; just picture a isosceles triangle whose equal sides are 100 km and the base is the distance to gate -with the bonused MJD, you will run that distance in 2 minutes. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
193
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 16:58:00 -
[3735] - Quote
Tlat Ij wrote:Posted: 2013.09.05 23:05 - CCP Rise wrote:In the mean time keep up the discussion and you'll hear from us again soon o/ You need to type "SoonGäó" or people might think you actually mean "soon". Most people don't consider 2+ business weeks to be "soon".
Winter is coming... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:26:00 -
[3736] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: That's one good post, albeit i don't share your POV (the Noctis totally blasts marauders out of the water, they can't compete with 4x tractor + 4x salvager) and further I'm a sniper so the MJD bonus is sweet to me.
That said, my marauder is a Golem (and i replaced it for pirate BS ages ago) and the idea of using tank slots for webbers is completely silly in my book. We need bonuses that don't rely on wasting tank slots, period. And in my view, the marauder class "beauty" should be to excel both in ranged (class bonus) and close (bastion bonus) combat. The class asks a hefty price to users, and should reward them in kind.
BTW, with a MJD bonus, you can double-jump your way to a gate faster than otherwise; just picture a isosceles triangle whose equal sides are 100 km and the base is the distance to gate -with the bonused MJD, you will run that distance in 2 minutes.
Well the Noctis was introduced shortly after I had trained my marauder so I arguably fell victim to the sunk costs fallacy. I still fly it mostly on the principle that one ship is more convenient than two, and trade efficiency for that convenience. (Just as I traded some applied DPS for some ability to tank DCs in my fit.) Although at minimum a marauder is a nice FU to ninja salvagers. They can salvage the frigates because I already got the battleships. 
My intent wasn't to actually refit my ship to use webbers, but to illustrate how silly the web bonus is and how badly it conflicts with the idea of sniping.
I think marauders were originally intended to be all-in-one mission ships. Before the Noctis, they excelled at this role. But the Noctis overshadowed them by specializing in what was previously a marauder's utility. As pirate ships applied more DPS, this left marauders functionally obsolete--really expensive, and for the price there was always another ship (or combination thereof) that was better.
Strictly speaking, 3-4 utility slots will never be as efficient as a Noctis' 8, but it would nonetheless be nice to see the role bonuses catch up so marauders can tractor from 100m too--especially if they're now supposed to be fighting from that range. Adding a % bonus to salvage chance to our role bonus would also be nice, to at least help narrow the effective salvager disparity even if it won't close it.
As far as the MJD bonus goes, technically this is true--however as the game is now, when I'm burning to a gate I'm also salvaging. With MJD trig, I lose that. And I'll still be waiting for MJD to come off cooldown. If I don't MJD, I'll be burning to the gate at the approximate speed of a carrier (as opposed to my currently respectable 470m/s). Maybe. LOL. MJD is obviously new since I was gone to the game, but I like the fit I had, a fit that had no need of MJD.
Don't get me wrong. I don't object to having the versatility to decide to fight at 100km or 10km. But the current costs that CCP is asking us to pay for that versatility (after we already paid the price in SP and ISK) will destroy what remaining role marauders have for carebears in the hopes that maybe a PVP experiment succeeds. If I'm fighting at 100km in a ship that I trained for intending to salvage as I fight, I want to be able to grab those wrecks at 100km for the proper hoover treatment. |

Dark Drifter
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:28:00 -
[3737] - Quote
give the bastion mod a damage bonus (50% - 100%) damage when active.
or add a 5th turret/launcher slot |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
149
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:30:00 -
[3738] - Quote
I'd like to say this, since a lot of people seem to be unable to see it, you are not in any way required to fit any of the bonused modules at all. those bonuses are there to give you options and allow for the ships versatility. If you sniper fit with mjd. dont fit a web, no problem. dont like the idea of using an mjd and a prop mod? dont fit the mjd. You use a noctis instead of the tractor/salvage fittings? don't fit them.
Stop trying to kill these ships versatility. They didn't have it before and it's great now. Just remember,"I don't need this bonus for my playstyle. So, rather than demand the ship cater to me, I just won't use it" |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:52:00 -
[3739] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'd like to say this, since a lot of people seem to be unable to see it, you are not in any way required to fit any of the bonused modules at all. those bonuses are there to give you options and allow for the ships versatility. If you sniper fit with mjd. dont fit a web, no problem. dont like the idea of using an mjd and a prop mod? dont fit the mjd. You use a noctis instead of the tractor/salvage fittings? don't fit them.
Stop trying to kill these ships versatility. They didn't have it before and it's great now. Just remember,"I don't need this bonus for my playstyle. So, rather than demand the ship cater to me, I just won't use it"
This would be all well and good if they weren't messing with the bonuses that do fit our playstyle.
I didn't object to the first iteration of Bastion because, while losing velocity and drone bay sucked, the core bonuses that induced me to pay the heavy SP and ISK cost of getting a marauder were still there.
I'd love to keep my current fit/playstyle, but the fit is built around having a certain amount of sustained survivability to survive "oh **** my router just randomly reset" moments. With the shield bonus gone, I'll probably have to convert the fit to a pulse tank and therefore risk losing it to things outside of my control, like my ISP deciding to hiccup.
Having a versatile PVP mini-dread ship is all well and good, but it needs to be a new ship. I don't think any sane capsuleer trained marauders intending to PVP with them, so why are we giving a ship almost exclusively trained for and used in PVE a bunch of PVP bonuses while at the same time taking away the PVE bonuses |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:54:00 -
[3740] - Quote
MuntadaralZaidi wrote:Rowells wrote:I'd like to say this, since a lot of people seem to be unable to see it, you are not in any way required to fit any of the bonused modules at all. those bonuses are there to give you options and allow for the ships versatility. If you sniper fit with mjd. dont fit a web, no problem. dont like the idea of using an mjd and a prop mod? dont fit the mjd. You use a noctis instead of the tractor/salvage fittings? don't fit them.
Stop trying to kill these ships versatility. They didn't have it before and it's great now. Just remember,"I don't need this bonus for my playstyle. So, rather than demand the ship cater to me, I just won't use it" This would be all well and good if they weren't messing with the bonuses that do fit our playstyle. I didn't object to the first iteration of Bastion because, while losing velocity and drone bay sucked, the core bonuses that induced me to pay the heavy SP and ISK cost of getting a marauder were still there. And the new bonuses from bastion mod were legit. I'd love to keep my current fit/playstyle, but the fit is built around having a certain amount of sustained survivability to survive "oh **** my router just randomly reset" moments. With the shield bonus gone, I'll probably have to convert the fit to a pulse tank and therefore risk losing it to things outside of my control, like my ISP deciding to hiccup. Not to mention the updated bonuses are a lot more meh for my purposes. Having a versatile PVP mini-dread ship is all well and good, but it needs to be a new ship. I don't think any sane capsuleer trained marauders intending to PVP with them, so why are we giving a ship almost exclusively trained for and used in PVE a bunch of PVP bonuses while at the same time taking away the PVE bonuses
|
|

Ewersmen
0 inc
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 19:09:00 -
[3741] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium DONT GO FULL R*E*T*A*R*D ........To many figjams on here writing a book about f*u*c*k*I*n*g stupid idea ........................................web bonus really ......mini dread noooooooooooo..... If this happens I will just sell mine ...ok figjams go! |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1831
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 19:12:00 -
[3742] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'd like to say this, since a lot of people seem to be unable to see it, you are not in any way required to fit any of the bonused modules at all. those bonuses are there to give you options and allow for the ships versatility. If you sniper fit with mjd. dont fit a web, no problem. dont like the idea of using an mjd and a prop mod? dont fit the mjd. You use a noctis instead of the tractor/salvage fittings? don't fit them.
Stop trying to kill these ships versatility. They didn't have it before and it's great now. Just remember,"I don't need this bonus for my playstyle. So, rather than demand the ship cater to me, I just won't use it"
A bonus you don't use is making you pay the price for balancing it, and takes the place of a bonus you could use.
That said, maybe marauders could get the same tractor bonus as Noctis? They already have the sensor range to use it, and having only 5x small dornes could just bring in salvage drones and rely purely on DPS to deal with enemies of all sizes (back to damage application bonus when in bastion mode...). The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

EM00
Active Fusion Cold Fusion.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 19:55:00 -
[3743] - Quote
I have always liked the "Raven-type" ships and therefore the Golem is a personal favorite. I have flown the other 3 Marauders too, but for shorter times.
It has been said many times that CCP originally designed them for Pve/mission use - and it has been said just as many times that Pve is the reason a lot of people invested time, skillpoints and isk to train for them. (That is the same reasons I trained for them. :) ) I am not saying this to complain - I actually like the idea of CCP adding more versatility and roles to the Marauders. My point is simply: While CCP adds more cool stuff and makes changes, at the same time please remember to keep their mission abilities. (otherwise we invested all this time to find out the 'cake' is a lie...)
Here are some suggestions that I hope is useful:
I think on the Kronos, Paladin and Vargur a web bonus is very useful. But instead of strength I think a range bonus might solve some problems: +10% range to stasis webifiers per level. To me this brings a good use both for missions and for Pvp.
For the Golem instead of webifiers it makes more sense to me to have a explosion radius bonus: 5% explosion radius per level (similar to some other ships) Perhaps this will help the people that fly with dual target painter setups to remove one and free up a slot for a micro jump drive without totally killing the tank.
I would like it if the Marauders keep their tractor range. (which at the moment looks like it stays) I use a Noctis to salvage, but there are a few situations where a mission critical item drops a distance away and the Marauder tractor range is very useful in saving time and preventing it stolen by thieves. (The tractor range keeps me sane when I get the 'Duo of Death' mission and I have no fast ships closeby)
Overall I like the Bastion module. To me it looks like it has a nice use in missions - if things go really wrong and you get overwhelmed by full aggro and multiple waves (or aliens attack) you can use it as an emergency to survive longer. (since it increase repair amount and projects damage better) And for Pvp I think it is great for short range high dps ships because it adds extra range to the guns/torps while improving the tank to last longer.
I also like the Micro Jump Drive bonus. It definitely is good for Pvp snipers to jump around the battlefield. I also like the triangulation trick that some others posted for missions gates in 2 jumps. (There is that one mission where all Npc's always seem to be destroyed before you get halfway to the next gate... :) ) And the fact is: the ship having the bonus does not force you to fit it - so you don't loose a middle slot unless you actually fit the MJD... and in that case it makes sense that you have to sacrifice something for the extra ability. So I am OK with it.
One thing I don't like is the Vargur and Golem loosing roughly 10% of their cap recharge. Even though they get higher total capacitor points, the 10% recharge decrease is bad and makes a huge difference. Especially since we will have to use less boost amps and more active shield modules that use cap on the Golem to fill the slightly bigger EM hole. Please take the recharge back to what it was.
I agree with others that have said that the T2 resistances while removing the repair bonus create gaps in the tank when doing missions. (except for the Vargur) The recent increase to local repair modules compensates for this partially, but it still means a roughly 25% drop in tanking for 1 resistance - While 2 other resistance are actually overpowered. So I am definitely recommending making the resistances slightly more uniform... decrease the high ones slightly, and increase the lowest one a bit please. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 20:03:00 -
[3744] - Quote
i just think adding e-war to non e-war specialist ships (besides pirates) is bizzare ... especially after Ytterbium saying that webs weren't very useful on these ships earlier in the thread .
I think the first iteration was much more like it with a few tweaks would have been great specialization now though they seem to have many specializations and geared more toward RR T2 resist heavy tackling battleships... and kind of stepping on pirate battleships somewhat rather than separating them like is needed. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 20:13:00 -
[3745] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'd like to say this, since a lot of people seem to be unable to see it, you are not in any way required to fit any of the bonused modules at all. those bonuses are there to give you options and allow for the ships versatility. If you sniper fit with mjd. dont fit a web, no problem. dont like the idea of using an mjd and a prop mod? dont fit the mjd. You use a noctis instead of the tractor/salvage fittings? don't fit them.
Stop trying to kill these ships versatility. They didn't have it before and it's great now. Just remember,"I don't need this bonus for my playstyle. So, rather than demand the ship cater to me, I just won't use it"
Sry Mate but you are the one that can't see it.
I'm not required to fit web, true. Why there is a web on a slowest subcap ship that is supposed to be mainly stationary is beyond me, but you are right here. Also all you guys who support web for PvP: yep it's great on CURRENT marauders. If u will be forced to stay stationary that bonus won't give you anything anymore.
I am forced to fit mjd because of the speed nerf - AB won't cut anymore... also i can't salvage with AB .
I am also forced to use bastion module since I've lost my hull rep bonus and gained NOTHING. You say I gained T2 resists? Well yep for PvP sure, but for PvE I didn't get a damn thing (thats only true for Paladin and Vargur). |

Atena Dineji
Practical Umbrella ltd Cha Ching PLC
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 20:21:00 -
[3746] - Quote
I like the PvP aspects of it. I strongly disagree with PvE.
#1 MJD for Marauder in PVE sucks pretty hard. You can only tractor wrecks in 48km range, so it's pretty stupid to jump 100km away and after killing everything 100km back in to salvage. Marauders are meant for salvaging WHILE shooting which is awesome $$$/hour. If i can't salvage simultaniously there is no need for a marauder.
#2 Because of said 48km tractor range, personally i don't shoot things that are more than 48km away from me (except in rare special cases). So i don't see the need for 25% range bonus either.
#3 Stasis web may be a good thing for turret ships, but not for the golem. Fitting two TPs is way more effective than fitting a TP and a Web if my math is correct.
#4 Higher dps = more isk/hour. Short range = more dps. Positioning with short range weapons is very important, but it will be difficult with the reduced speed. MJD just doesn't make up for it because of the reasons above.
#4 Base rule of EVE: Risk is ISK. I've tried many MANY ships in PvE and liked the golem best, because you can make an insane amount of isk per hour if you're ballsy enough to fly it with an less than 180 ehp/sec sustained tank. It does beat the Machariel as a mission ship because of its TP and shielb boost bonus and bigger cargo.
[Golem, aemaeth] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy EM Ward Field Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
So, how do you fly that thing? Warp in, fire up ab to get less than 48km range and kill everything as quickly as possible while salvaging with drones once the frigs are gone. BS need three hits, Cruisers one, Frigs will be killed by drones. If you've chosen a good path you will be at the next acceleration gate at the same time your last enemy dies. You can easily fly Angel Extravaganze in less than 40 minutes with everything slavaged.
How will you fly that ship after the patch? You won't, it sucks. It's speed is too slow with AB, but you don't really have any other choice. You'll jump in and you'll have to go into bastion mode because your shield boost bonus is gone (now i'm not very happy about having trained marauders V, it's pretty much useless by now). You'll shoot enough ships to be able to tank the rest while slowboating to the next gate. You can't salvage half of the wrecks because they're out of range. And now, after needing like 60+ minutes to finish AE with everything salvaged, you fly to Jita and go buy a Machariel. Or - perhaps - a Vargur, because the Web Bonus with that one is very good, but i guess it will still need too much time to kill Cruisers to be effective enough to compete with the current ISK/Hour amount of the golem.
I'm really impressed by the game mechanics knowledge and ideas of CCP Rise when it comes to PVP and i do believe that changes will have a positive impact for marauders in PVP. No offense, but i'm sure if you force CCP Rise to fly lvl4 missions in a torpedo marauder he'll jump out of the window, so i'm not sure if the negative impact on the golem as a mission ship is clear here. If you don't want to make the golem useless with that patch change the stasis web bonus back to a shield boost amount bonus or an afterburner speed bonus. And if you want players in PVE to make use of a MJD increase the tractor Beam range to 90km and increase the speed of tractor beams (like in the noctis)
The Vargur will be quite interessting though, if you don't decrease it's speed that much. |

Atena Dineji
Practical Umbrella ltd Cha Ching PLC
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 20:37:00 -
[3747] - Quote
One thing to add for the vargur. IF you wold have a bigger range with tractor beams you could make good use of the mjd, but only if you manage to fit a tracking computer. If you fit that, you will have a hard time fitting another medslot module like web or target painter. I like that it now has a bonus for a web, but if you're able to jump out 100km you won't need the web. You'll most likely use a TP instead. Change the Web Bonus to a TP bonus like in the golem and switch a low slot for a med slot, increase tractor beam range and the vargur will kick the machariels ass in pve.
Otherwise the Machariel will dominate PvE even more than it does now. |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 21:05:00 -
[3748] - Quote
Atena Dineji wrote:One thing to add for the vargur. IF you wold have a bigger range with tractor beams you could make good use of the mjd, but only if you manage to fit a tracking computer. If you fit that, you will have a hard time fitting another medslot module like web or target painter. I like that it now has a bonus for a web, but if you're able to jump out 100km you won't need the web. You'll most likely use a TP instead. Change the Web Bonus to a TP bonus like in the golem and switch a low slot for a med slot, increase tractor beam range and the vargur will kick the machariels ass in pve.
Otherwise the Machariel will dominate PvE even more than it does now.
Yes, this.
If marauders are going to be rebalanced around cramming more into midslots, I'd happily trade a lowslot for a mid. Losing a TE can be offset somewhat by ammo swapping, but if they're balancing marauders around dual prop and assorted forms of EWAR now we'll need more mids to cram the rebalanced fittings into. At least if we still want to use the marauders as mission boats without having them COMPLETELY overshadowed in that role by the Mach. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
387
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 21:13:00 -
[3749] - Quote
I'm still absolutely flabbergasted at the fact that people think that a ship that has:
-Heavily quantized 100km movement -10-15km webs -20-140km range weapons -A mod that is mandatory for defense that makes you stationary
will actually have a place in PvP, at all. Look at that.
The web bonus is SNAKE MITTENS on the Golem, PvE or PvP. Are you insane? A torp golem will never have the chance to be in web range of a target (ESPECIALLY WITH BASTION MODE ACTIVE)- it's range is already so much greater than webs so as to make them utterly pointless. Let's not forget that cruise missiles are better than torpedoes in almost every way too, so really, if you're flying a torp golem, well... Let's just say you're putting unnecessary handicaps on yourself.
It does not and will never need a web bonus! It already has a bonus to target painters, why does it ALSO need webs? What the hell? Seriously, what is the goddamn point of the web bonus on the Golem? Tell me. Right now.
What.
Is.
The point.
Of webs.
On a goddamn Golem.
This is the clincher here. I'm going to be selling my Golem (that is, if anyone buys it- I can guarantee that I'm going to have to sell it for much less than what I bought it for, thanks a lot), and buying a Machariel or Nightmare instead for PvE. This is the most horrifically and uselessly unfocused ship in the entire game. It's the bonus-equivalent of fitting 2x 75mm railgun Is, one 'Gallium' 720mm artillery and 2x Heavy Pulse Laser IIs on a Moa. |

Hena Muri
Underking Family Defiance Enterprises
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 21:25:00 -
[3750] - Quote
IGÇÖm confused. Why is CCP trying to design a ship with bonuses that have no Synergy?
The web bonus only matters if you arenGÇÖt using the MJD, and is questionably useful in Bastion as it is really a relic of maintaining the status quo. Mind you, a pair of these in bastion with short range weapons and some tracking scripts seems like it would be alright. Thus, ships should either get MJD or Web bonuses but not both to give it a clear purpose.
We get a tracking bonus on a ship thatGÇÖs designed to use Long Range slow tracking weapons. Short of 3-4000% tracking, youGÇÖre not fixing their issues hitting enemies with any useful amounts of transversal.
Again, If you leave in the Web bonuses, then leave in the Tracking bonuses. I have a friend that uses a Paladin currently with short range weapons. Let it keep the web bonuses, give it a Tracking Bonus instead of range/falloff (you can have two different bastion models, one for brawling and one for sniping)
Actually, that's a brilliant idea.
Create two bastion modules. Change the Webifier bonus to 100% effect of bastion module bonuses per level.
1st module: Tracking, Web, and Tractor Beam bonuses. People are asking for a brawler style short range BS. Give it to them. 2nd module: Range/Falloff, resists, and MJD bonuses. This keeps the original sniper platform proposal.
The hulls for the ships would still have their other bonuses.
IGÇÖm take it or leave it on the Tech 2 resists. For two ships they are great for omni tanking, for two ships they are great for mission running. I think the Old bastion resists bonus was overall better but I do like the tech two resists on the Paladin and the Vargur (I prefer Omni tank). IGÇÖd still like to see a small resist boost from the Bastion module (maybe make it stacking instead) to make up for losing the rep bonus from the hulls.
Just my thoughts on this, using the Bastion module this would would effectively give you two ships, without new artwork, while still appealing to a very large number of people. I suspect managing individual bastion modules is also much easier than tweaking a ship thatGÇÖs just confused in itGÇÖs purpose.
_WAter_
|
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 21:56:00 -
[3751] - Quote
Hena Muri wrote:
Create two bastion modules. Change the Webifier bonus to 100% effect of bastion module bonuses per level.
1st module: Tracking, Web, and Tractor Beam bonuses. People are asking for a brawler style short range BS. Give it to them. 2nd module: Range/Falloff, resists, and MJD bonuses. This keeps the original sniper platform proposal.
thats the beast idea so far in this thread one has to argue about configuration of bonuses on the module but giveing marauders the choice of which bonuses to use through which bastion module fitted coul make the ships work in all ways desired. AND it would allow you to introduce even a third module if you come up with a nice idea some time in the future!
plz CCP do this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not necessarily in the above sugested fashion even if you want to run a golem with torps painter and web bonus would be stupid)
an alternative would be to give bastion modules diffrent bonuses in on and of mode but i guess it would be to op.... and not that specialized and would fall into tier 3 "versatility" |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:08:00 -
[3752] - Quote
People, they reinstituted the web bonus because of 50 pages of crying about it being eliminated when they unveiled their first round of changes. For reference, see the first 50 pages of this thread. Now that it's back, everyone's crying that it "lacks synergy" and "nothing will ever get in range."
While a web bonus is not the best way to solve the problem, it works pretty well as a compromise solution allowing the Marauders some viability in PvP and also giving them a way to deal with frigates in high end PvE. Do you know how many elite frigates 10/10 complexes have? The final room of The Maze has upwards of 30. These frigs will switch to your drones, and if you try to kill them with drones only you will lose all of them before you're done. You need some kind of mechanism that lets your large guns hit them and a 90% web is a decent one. The same goes for wormholes, a flight of lights just doesn't cut it for C3 data/relic sites with 12+ sleeper frigs in them. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:19:00 -
[3753] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: 90% webs only appear on 4 ship types. I think to have a rational discussion about them it's probably worth considering them in context. Of course any armour ships with 5 mid slots can simulate them (hyperion, legion, proteus in some configs), but you are correct in saying that they give up something to do that, and rightly so.
So:
kronos - the 90% web bonus is there so a 425mm railgun-fitted kronos can clear a mission without worrying about orbiting frigates. The 90% web effectiveness is somewhat compromised in pvp due to the ship's general unsuitability for pvp, so it can be largely ignored in that context.
Paladin - see kronos.
Vindicator - This ship is a pirate ship and as such is supposed to be OP in one respect. For the vindicator, it is that the last thing you ever want to do is get close to it. If you get within 10km of a vindicator, it *should be* the last thing you ever do. That's why it's worth 1Bn, and the navy dominix which can be made to do almost as much damage, is worth 500m (although I actually wonder whether the navy domi is undervalued...)
Vigilant - see vindicator. If you're engaging it in a cruiser or smaller, the last thing you want to do is let it get close. It carries a high price tag to justify this ability to be the 'last thing you get tackled by'
Note that neither the vigilant nor the vindicator are particularly strong. My tests on sisi demonstrate comprehensively to me that in a 1v1, a correctly fitted hyperion defeats a vindicator every time - whether buffered or self-repaired. It's not *that* OP. The only thing the vindi pilot can do is crawl away from the hyperion - unless the hyperion fitted dual webs.
The PVE uses of vindicators and vigilants can be ignored. Game balance around PVE is a misallocation of resources because the outcome of mission efficiency is unimportant to the overall experience of the game. The outcome of a pvp encounter is fundamental to the experience of EVE. Being on either the winning or losing end of the encounter is a very emotional experience for most.
In summary:
* 90% webs can be simulated with 2x meta-4 webs. In any fleet multi-webbing is likely to be implicit, so whether webs are 60%, 70%, 85% or 99% is actually irrelevant when there are more than 2 brawling ships available. Consider a dual-web rapier. No-one has ever claimed that it's OP.
* 90% webs in a 1v1 will only occur with a vindicator or vigilant, where they are a desirable part of the ships overall pvp character.
Thus although 90% webs look like a dangerous and overpowered feature to some, their actual effect on eve is minimal.
I would suggest that the dev team and CSM focus on the imbalance of the ASB first. That is a much more pertinent game-breaker.
/MC
My problem is less with the single 90% web use-case, it's more with the dual 90% web case, where you can get someone down to what is effectively not moving.
With normal webs, even against multiple webs you can potentially tracking disrupt an enemy and avoid their shots, with your ship slowed to ~97% normal velocity that's pretty fruitless simply because you can't hope to maintain traversal on them.
With a fleet fight with multiple webs you can still only get up to slightly less than a 91% velocity reduction and that requires five or more webs on the same target.
As for PvE balance, I tend to agree that it's not what ships should be balanced against but certain traits that are useful in PvE tend to also be useful in certain PvP situations, so there shouldn't be too much of a dichotomy between making a ship with strong PvE application and niche PvP application.
As for ASBs, the number of ships that can actually run dual ASBs is pretty limited and the number that can run those and still do something useful even more so. There are better bait ships and you tend to have to hurt the fit pretty badly in other ways to run dual ASBs for solo work. Overall I would say that ASBs aren't abused terribly much in the real world either. I've seen a few kills of dual ASB fit ships but they generally failed to take out much if anything before dying.
If the effect of 90% webs on Eve is minimal then the effect of dual ASB fits is even more so. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:23:00 -
[3754] - Quote
I'm starting to like the multi-bastion mod idea better and better. Trying to slap everything onto a one-size-fits-all mod while turning the individual marauders into a strange mess of inconsistent stats doesn't offer much to anyone, PVE or PVP. Even within the confines of either end of the spectrum, say PVE, what works great for Incursion runners might be a kick in the face for mission runners. Likewise, bonuses that would make sense for mission runners may not be as useful for the very same Incursion runners. It gets to a point (see iteration 2) where bonuses/tweaks/changes in both bastion mod and marauder alike clash with each other to the degree where what we are left with is a class of ships that has little to no real appeal. Going with two different mods allows greater room for a far cleaner approach to balancing them in a way that doesn't constantly bump heads with itself or it's intended users. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 01:23:00 -
[3755] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: As for ASBs, the number of ships that can actually run dual ASBs is pretty limited and the number that can run those and still do something useful even more so. There are better bait ships and you tend to have to hurt the fit pretty badly in other ways to run dual ASBs for solo work. Overall I would say that ASBs aren't abused terribly much in the real world either. I've seen a few kills of dual ASB fit ships but they generally failed to take out much if anything before dying.
If the effect of 90% webs on Eve is minimal then the effect of dual ASB fits is even more so.
Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.
Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.
This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.
This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.
This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 02:27:00 -
[3756] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.
Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.
This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.
This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.
This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't.
Okay, this I can get behind at least to an extent. We can definitely say that the Golem and Vargur won't have as much trouble as the other ships fitting multiple ASBs, though I think three is pushing it while still having a ship that does more than tank.
The problem as I see it is that if you limit ASBs to one per ship then at that point the marginal utility of one vs a cap booster is questionable.
This suggests that ASBs should be adjusted to be more balanced in the instance that you do fit two rather than simply hard limiting them to 1 per ship. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 02:47:00 -
[3757] - Quote
The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:
- Cap booster
- SBA2
- L Pith X-type
versus
Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs.
The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like:
You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 02:51:00 -
[3758] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.
Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.
This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.
This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.
This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't. Okay, this I can get behind at least to an extent. We can definitely say that the Golem and Vargur won't have as much trouble as the other ships fitting multiple ASBs, though I think three is pushing it while still having a ship that does more than tank. The problem as I see it is that if you limit ASBs to one per ship then at that point the marginal utility of one vs a cap booster is questionable. This suggests that ASBs should be adjusted to be more balanced in the instance that you do fit two rather than simply hard limiting them to 1 per ship.
it's one module that does the job of 2, there is not marginal utility over it's massive utility over. Why did they limit the AAR to 1 module vs have 2 of those (irrespective of the fact that cap boosters are massively cheaper then nanopaste) |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 02:58:00 -
[3759] - Quote
As far as the web bonus is concerned, I'd like to see them fix the underlying problem instead of treating the symptom. The only reason you need webs at all on a BS size platform is to control smaller ships that have gotten "under your guns". In PVE this isn't really a problem because a single flight of light drones with even basic drone skills can bring them down quickly.
In PVP where those smaller ships don't have crap tanks and no hitpoints to speak of that flight of drones won't even scratch their tank. A BS is completely helpless against smaller craft. The exception being cruise missile ships with target painters and precision cruise missiles. 2-3 painters and precision will make them go pop quite nicely. Turret platforms are just out of luck in this situation.
I don't know how you fix this without doing a complete weapon system rework. A good start would be to forklift the existing tracking formula and start with something a little more realistic. Like smaller ships being harder to hit farther away instead of easier... Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 03:03:00 -
[3760] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Sure a dual ASB sleipnir can be kited by anything with a web. However, dual, or triple ASB is a real problem for the marauder. It's a problem because the marauders can fit them without being gimped - and they have huge cargo bays. Of course these cargo bays were designed for loot - but they hold cap boosters just as well.
Even without the bastion module, dual-asb vargurs and golems are to all intents and purposes unkillable by a single ship - unless that ship happens to be a dreadnought.
This provides a very shaky platform for any kind of bastion module which is designed to increase tank. The tank is already OP, so any increase simply makes it more OP.
This is not a problem that can be solved with convoluted changes to the bastion module - you simply have to start with a good foundation. Fix the ASB and it forces marauder fits into shield boosters, for which they were designed. Shield boosters and armour repairers are roughly equivalent in performance over the course of a fight (at least in terms of total effective hitpoints), so a bastion module can be made that affects them equally without too much trouble.
This of course assumes that one imagines that the bastion mofdule is a good idea. I actually don't. Okay, this I can get behind at least to an extent. We can definitely say that the Golem and Vargur won't have as much trouble as the other ships fitting multiple ASBs, though I think three is pushing it while still having a ship that does more than tank. The problem as I see it is that if you limit ASBs to one per ship then at that point the marginal utility of one vs a cap booster is questionable. This suggests that ASBs should be adjusted to be more balanced in the instance that you do fit two rather than simply hard limiting them to 1 per ship. it's one module that does the job of 2, there is not marginal utility over it's massive utility over. Why did they limit the AAR to 1 module vs have 2 of those (irrespective of the fact that cap boosters are massively cheaper then nanopaste)
Since armor modules fit for space with dps modules, the limitation is usually moot anyways. The shield tanks have the options to trade "utility" for tank and keep their gank. Armor tankers simply don't have the slots available to do this unless they drastically reduce their dps potential. It's doubly so since the only way to increase dps or armor HP/s is through rigs. The dps rigs require very high calibration and the ANP2 only offers a 20% increase verses the SBA2s 37.5%. This saddens me to no end. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 03:07:00 -
[3761] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:
- Cap booster
- SBA2
- L Pith X-type
versus Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs. The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like: You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot.
Congratulations on comparing a 1m ISK module to a 2b ISK module and establishing that the 2b ISK module is slightly superior. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 03:17:00 -
[3762] - Quote
OK... So, I started my account back up after 6 months off, mostly because of this thread.
I thought I had gotten over my rage after reading along for however many days, but I guess not. So, I'll start this post by saying....
WHAT THE FUCKINGSHITASSBALLSPISSINFATFACEWHOREDICKFACEDFUCKINGRETARDEDMOTHERFUCKER!!!!!
Ok... I'm better now.
That said, here's my real comment.
Those of you stating that marauders are just fine the way they have gone full R E T A R D!!!!!
The only time marauders were good at PVE was when there was absolutely no ewar.
The only time marauders have been good at PVP is during the alliance tournament.
Now, there is something going added to the game not too long back that makes them appear to be good at PVE.. Any idea what that may be??? If you said ASB and AAR, then you get a cookie. (but not from me...Go ask your mom and tell her Joe Risalo sent you.....she knows me.....very well)
Now, lets look at the facts of strengths vs weaknesses.
STRENGTHS Damage - Effect damage of 8 weapons. Projection - All Marauders are pretty good at projection, even with short range weapons. Tank - They are capable of pretty substantial tanks. Salvage on the go - Although, not that well. Utility highs - assuming you don't care about salvage, then you've got utility. I used smart bombs. Weapon count - The use of only 4 weapon systems allows for less ammo consumption, and less cap consumption in some cases.
WEAKNESSES Cap usage - All 4 marauders consume a high amount of cap, even if it's not needed for weapons (Golem and Vargur) Ewar - Self explanatory. Tractor range - Pretty much all marauder pilots have been proponents of greater range, even before the Noctis Size - These ships have always had a large sig, making the easy to hit targets Mobility - Fairly slow, with terrible align times Tank - Their sig pretty much counters that, making them tank no better than a t1 BS cost - This doesn't just factor the cost of the ship, it also factors fitting costs SP - This doesn't just factor for the ship, this is also fitting. Pre-torp nerf you required max range skills AND t2 range rigs for a Golem to hit a target at max orbit range in lvl 4 missions. Now, it's not possible without prop mods(which reverts back to mobility) Scan res - Take quite a while to lock a small target..
Now, with all that said (may have missed some) Here is the reason they aren't that good at PVE or PVP
Quote:WEAKNESSES Cap usage - All 4 marauders consume a high amount of cap, even if it's not needed for weapons (Golem and Vargur) Ewar - Self explanatory. Tractor range - Pretty much all marauder pilots have been proponents of greater range, even before the Noctis Size - These ships have always had a large sig, making the easy to hit targets Mobility - Fairly slow, with terrible align times Tank - Their sig pretty much counters that, making them tank no better than a t1 BS cost - This doesn't just factor the cost of the ship, it also factors fitting costs SP - This doesn't just factor for the ship, this is also fitting. Pre-torp nerf you required max range skills AND t2 range rigs for a Golem to hit a target at max orbit range in lvl 4 missions. Now, it's not possible without prop mods(which reverts back to mobility) Scan res - Take quite a while to lock a small target..
See what I did there?
Now, lets look at these weaknesses Pre-ASB/AAR, all the Marauders suffered with cap. Even the Golem could easily cap out. The reason for this was due to tank. Although they had a substantial tank on paper, this didn't hold true in combat. Their massive sig radius and low mobility has always lead to NPCs and PVP'ers apply full potential DPS. This meant their tanks were no better, if not worse, than T1 ships. They aren't at all effective with a perma-tank, and a boost tank would sink a marauder as fast as a torpedo into a row boat. This lead to the need of a cap-booster (pre-ASB/AAR). Now, the awesome DPS, projection, and application of these ships helped to counteract these issues, however, they were overshadowed by more issues. Those being Ewar and scan res. If you could get a lock on a target, it took forever to do so. Hell, sensor dampens on scan res was just as bad as being jammed. So, this all lead to the final 2 issues, which are SP and isk costs. Was it even worth the costs considering all these issues? HELL NO!!!
There seems to be plenty of people on here saying that these ships are fine the way they are, just with minor tweaking. These people probably never flew a marauder before ASBs and AARs. Life was horrible. Also, are these people even flying mission with ewar? Target painters in missions are just as devastating to a Marauder as jams, damps, and cap war. Hit a marauder with a TP and it's sig radius goes through the roof!!!! Even at optimal+falloff+falloff, you could still hammer down on a TP'd marauder.
My next post will consist of my opinions of the suggested changes, and my suggestions.
P.S. Nice to see the forums gods are still destroying posts... Glad I remembered to copy.... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 03:20:00 -
[3763] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:The LASB isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things; even rotating 2 of them for sustained tank. With the recent changes to boost amounts, the Pith X line of boosters actually surpass the ASB in HP/s and can be reasonably sustained. Think about the difference between these 3 boost setups:
- Cap booster
- SBA2
- L Pith X-type
versus Although the pilot has the option of activating both ASBs simultaneously for a large burst tank, they are limited to the time they can do this. In the first setup, they will have higher HP/s and a longer running time than if the second pilot were alternating the ASBs. The real problem is the entire eXtra Large line of shield boosters, not just the XLASB. The up sizing of boosters provides huge HP/s burst tanks that can be supported by a cap booster with 800s for quite a while especially if your weapon system doesn't eat cap. The XLASB is the true abomination as it provides massive HP/s for 0 cap expenditure and also provides cap warfare immunity. If you can shoehorn 2 of these bad boys onto your hull for something like: You are really only killable through raw alpha or simply eventually running out of boosters. If you can afford faction boosters this gets even worse as you get more boosts per reload cycle and you can fit more of them in your cargo hold to boot. Congratulations on comparing a 1m ISK module to a 2b ISK module and establishing that the 2b ISK module is slightly superior. *bows* I even thought about editing that into the original post, but thought "Nah, nobody will take this out of context and they'll surely be able to understand the overall balancing intent to the examples." Guess you proved me wrong. I have been sufficiently punished and won't forget this valuable lesson for some time to come.
In all seriousness, the original comparison was between LASB and L Pith X-type. If you do the math, you burn 30 mil ISK every hour you spend alternating the two LASBs. So you have to spend 13 hours repping before it actually costs more than the 399 mil ISK Large Pith X-type module. We can go back and forth arguing total cost of ownership and increased risk of gank for hours and come to no better conclusion than anyone else has before. The point here was simply looking at repair potential in that context alone. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 04:25:00 -
[3764] - Quote
Ok, so, first I'll start with my opinions of the presented changes.
Iteration 1
I'm sure most of the players that have been flying marauders for a while were quite happy with iteration 1. Hell, I was. This was especially good for torp golem fits. Finally you would be able to hit max orbit mission targets again!!! (51km) (remember, just because on paper you can hit at 51km with torps doesn't mean it works in practice... you still gotta chase the target...)
The range bonuses doesn't too much effect those of us that already use long range weapons. As a Golem pilot myself(though I haven't flown one in a long time), Cruise is the way to go after the missile changes. They got pretty epic...
The resists buff while in bastion was AMAZING TO SEE!!! I hate that they removed it in iteration 2.
Iteration 2
That said, I was one of the many people that were proponents of t2 resists on Marauders. Granted, this was when t2 resists were 5% and pre-ASB/AAR, but the point still stands. Many of us wanted resists over rep amount because of the cap issues with Marauders and because of the issues with sig making tank less effective. It would make cap less of an issue, meaning that both perma tanks and boost tanks would be more effective. However, I would not trade Omni 30% resist buff while in bastion for a t2 resists. That's just dumb.
The only main reason I have for liking bastion now is ewar immunity. This is great!!! I don't know that this effects cap warfare, but if it does, that's even better. If it doesn't, then the loss of the 30% resists is even worse... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 04:49:00 -
[3765] - Quote
Now, here's my suggestions
Standard Flight Mode
1) Balance the resistances on the Marauders This would be unique to Marauders and would fit their role quite well. Example Golem - current 0% EM - 50% EX - 47.5% KI - 40% TH Post Suggestion (roughly) 34 - 34 - 35 - 34 This would allow Marauders to build balanced tanks based off of these resists, giving them an ability that fits their description.
2) Balance the Hull around a brawler design.
I.E. - Their bonuses will be focused on damage application. Tracking/exp radius/velocity focused bonuses. They would also be bonused towards MWD. At all skills lvl 5, with no mods, these ships would be able to track any battleship at any range, perfectly.
3) Weak sensors, but stronger than they are now.
4) Much better agility and mobility
5) Smaller mass
6) Shield/armor/structure are balanced somewhere in between current and proposed on this thread.
7) 6 highs instead of 7. If that slot needs to be given back to the ship, then it should be returned in either mid or low, depending on what CCP feels would be most balanced.
8) These ships would not be balanced towards utility, but would have that option due to spare slots.
9) No salvage/tractor bonus
10) Better scan res... possibly better than proposed in this thread
11) Would not have range bonuses at all.
This means the base hull of these ships would be designed specifically to be brawlers with balanced resists and propulsion bonuses.
These would be effective in PVE for those that like close range, high speed, and would be extremely effective in all forms of pvp. They would also fit well in PVE fleets, even with long range weapons.
Bastion Module
IMPORTANT - My design idea behind the bastion module is that it would eventually be usable on many other ships, both being new ships, and existing ships and would have different effects on each ship.
1) The Bastion Module would not require a high slot, but instead, would have it's own slot much like subs on t3's
2) The bonuses for bastion mode would replace all the bonuses of the fitted ship
3) The bonuses for the bastion mode would be hull specific
4) Different sizes of bastion modules in the event they were ever designed for smaller ships I.E. small, medium, large
5) Bastion module would effect each possible ship differently
In the case of Marauders, they would be ANCHORED immediately. This also means that when you activate the module, you would be instantly anchored, reguardless of velocity. This would also keep CCP from having to worry about locking ships using this module because they wouldn't be able to warp, jump, use a WH, or move. So, they wouldn't have to increase the mass to avoid bumping, because this ship wouldn't move at all. (increasing mass means you could scan them down with no skill and one probe) PERHAPS TAKING DAMAGE IF AT TOO HIGH OF A VELOCITY
6) Bastion module being fitted reduces velocity and agility by X%
Now
Bastion Mode Marauder
As stated under Bastion module, all the bonuses change Retains all base hull stats
1) Damage bonus either carries over, or drops/raises depending on what CCP would bonus the base hulls as.. Bastion, I would assume stays 100% damage.
2) When bastioned, gains a bonus towards tractor range. I would say comparable to that of the Noctis. (noctis would still stay on top due to 8 high slots)
3) Range bonuses
4) TP bonus in the case of the Golem, bonus to the effectiveness of tracking modules in the case of the turret boats, and bonuses towards sentry tracking in the case of the Kronos
5) Bastion module being fitted converts the Kronos into a sentry drone focused ship with all bonuses focused on sentries. (assuming a sentry boat would be preferred over a rail boat)
6) Tank boost buff while bastioned
7) Possibly a resist buff while bastioned
8) ewar immunity
9) A) MJD cycle bonus B) Range bonus (150-200km range) C) Able to select a range (anything 50km or more)
10) unable to receive remote assistance
11) (possible suggestion I read) - only bastion ships may assist each other (my change to it) - with cap assistance and nothing else.
This would mean that you have a PVP boat that has pve potential with a role being specifically a brawler. It would be niche while being used in some pve situations. However, the Bastioned mode would be a PVE focused boat with it's role being a tanky, sniper. It would be niche in pvp, but highly effective in certain situations such as breaking small roams, breaking small to med gate camps, and bait.
You would be required to commit, which is why I have proposed it being more like a sub system, so that once it's fitted, you're stuck in that role, instead of being able to simply online/offline a module, or simply swap a script. No ship should have the capability of changing roles on a whim.
Alternately, those of you stating that the marauders need to be more versatile that t1, navy, or pirate didn't take a look when CCP stated the design plans of ships. T2 ships are focused, t1 ships are versatile, navy are more focused than t1 and more versatile than t2, while pirate were designed to have the ultimate versatility with utility.(or something along that lines(was a long time ago))
I feel this is the best way to design marauders.
Now, with the Bastion module having a slot specifically for it, it would mean that other ships could be modified to allow a bastion module.
Black Ops BS's Orca Mining Barges/exhumers Industrials Noctis Primus Freighters
Basically, every ship would be different when fitting a bastion module. I.E. Hulk - range bonus at the cost of yield (reach a whole belt from warp in point) Mack - Mine gas and take no damage at all, can't mine ore/ice. Those are just some possible Bastion effects.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 05:09:00 -
[3766] - Quote
Also
I wanted to add that the name may need to be changed as bastion would be specific to the Marauder.
One more thing to add. The changes to TP cycle time is EPIC, however, since they're the least effective ewar out there, perhaps they should also have their optimal/falloff removed and instead be able to work at any range, as long as you can lock the target. This sounds fair to me... Or at least give them a max range instead of optimal/falloff, and then give specific ships (like golem) a TP range bonus. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 05:45:00 -
[3767] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Also
I wanted to add that the name may need to be changed as bastion would be specific to the Marauder.
One more thing to add. The changes to TP cycle time is EPIC, however, since they're the least effective ewar out there, perhaps they should also have their optimal/falloff removed and instead be able to work at any range, as long as you can lock the target. This sounds fair to me... Or at least give them a max range instead of optimal/falloff, and then give specific ships (like golem) a TP range bonus.
so whats the reason for no tractor /salvage? i hate using noctis i must have tractor/salvage on my marauder |

Hena Muri
Underking Family Defiance Enterprises
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 06:18:00 -
[3768] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Hena Muri wrote:
Create two bastion modules. Change the Webifier bonus to 100% effect of bastion module bonuses per level.
1st module: Tracking, Web, and Tractor Beam bonuses. People are asking for a brawler style short range BS. Give it to them. 2nd module: Range/Falloff, resists, and MJD bonuses. This keeps the original sniper platform proposal.
thats the beast idea so far in this thread one has to argue about configuration of bonuses on the module but giveing marauders the choice of which bonuses to use through which bastion module fitted coul make the ships work in all ways desired. AND it would allow you to introduce even a third module if you come up with a nice idea some time in the future! plz CCP do this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not necessarily in the above sugested fashion even if you want to run a golem with torps painter and web bonus would be stupid) an alternative would be to give bastion modules diffrent bonuses in on and of mode but i guess it would be to op.... and not that specialized and would fall into tier 3 "versatility"
Thank you. I was in a hurry when I was writing that so I just tossed a couple of similar sounding bonuses together to get the idea across. I considered the on off suggestion for webs but if you want webs it's because you're brawling, and that doesn't mean not standing still just that you're in the thick of it. So, turning off webs while bastioned isn't really better, I suspect you REALLY want your webs while bastioned. So, while it solved the issue between loosing webs and having useless webs at range, it felt hacky and ungraceful without addressing the underlying issue of ship purpose. I thought about it some more and it really comes down to people wanting different ships.
My only qualm with my suggestion is that it's very tech 3'ish in the versatility. However, with only two or three modules to balance it wouldn't be that bad as you're picking one of three different bastion modules which is essentially picking one of three different ships, you can even make them like riggings if you want to prevent in combat versatility without a significant cost.
But, does this actually accomplish what CCP is trying to do? I'm still confused on this front as the current bonuses indicate they want a versatile ship while the original suggestion indicated they wanted a really focused ship. This actually allows both in an odd way. You get a REALLY focused ship but you have versatility in choosing that role. It's not as wishy-washy as proper Tech 3 ships, while (once you've chosen your module) it's easily as focused as any Tech 2 ship should be.
As long as CCP can pick a set of bonuses for each module that make sense (I.E. Tractor beams need to go out to 100km+ if you want them on the long range sniper platform) then this stands to fix a lot of issues in this thread.
Also, as an aside. Don't stomp on divergent gameplay that comes up in the thread unless you're stomping that play style from current ships as well. I really don't see why a ship that is much more risky to collapse wormholes with needs to have jumping removed while in bastion. If you don't like wormhole cycling then get rid of mass stability from wormholes, or use cargo plus base ship mass (which would fix the armor tanking issues anyway). If you don't want a marauder to jump while in bastion as it spoils the point of the weapon timers and intent of bastion then say that. Saying that you don't want it to play the same wormhole games that already happen with an orca and a interdictor is odd. You're risking a hell of a lot more with the Marauder than the interdictor and after fitting likely the Orca as well. So why shouldn't the marauder pilot be able to play those games as well?
Just some thoughts, hopefully useful; _WAter_ |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 07:25:00 -
[3769] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:it's one module that does the job of 2, there is not marginal utility over it's massive utility over. Why did they limit the AAR to 1 module vs have 2 of those (irrespective of the fact that cap boosters are massively cheaper then nanopaste)
Except it doesn't do the job of two. It's a shield booster that runs off of cap-booster charges, but it doesn't give you any cap to run other modules like guns, MWD, other tank, Neuts, ect.
This is why I say that flatly limiting it to one might push it into the realm of uselessness in many PvP situations.
Of somewhat more concern to me is that it reps about 1.5 times what a T2 Shield Booster does which is where the sillyness with rep bonuses starts to be a problem.
Also the AAR was limited to one per ship because it's exactly as effective (with nano-paste) as a T1 XL Shield Booster but reps armor (which has slightly better resists overall).
Iome Ambraelle wrote:As far as the web bonus is concerned, I'd like to see them fix the underlying problem instead of treating the symptom. The only reason you need webs at all on a BS size platform is to control smaller ships that have gotten "under your guns". In PVE this isn't really a problem because a single flight of light drones with even basic drone skills can bring them down quickly.
In PVP where those smaller ships don't have crap tanks and no hitpoints to speak of that flight of drones won't even scratch their tank. A BS is completely helpless against smaller craft. The exception being cruise missile ships with target painters and precision cruise missiles. 2-3 painters and precision will make them go pop quite nicely. Turret platforms are just out of luck in this situation.
I don't know how you fix this without doing a complete weapon system rework. A good start would be to forklift the existing tracking formula and start with something a little more realistic. Like smaller ships being harder to hit farther away instead of easier...
This is pretty much working as intended. The smaller ship has far fewer hitpoints, less range, and lower damage than the large ship, in exchange it's harder to apply damage to and has a chance against larger ships by avoiding damage.
Eve is not supposed to be a linear progression like with, say, World of Warcraft swords where you "level up" or in this case gain skill points and everything gets progressively bigger and better. Certainly Battleships are bug and useful and the mainstay of a lot of combat but is it really a problem for them to be out-done in solo situations by smaller more maneuverable craft? Personally I'd say no, that's fine. What's the problem with Cruisers and Frigates as more viable solo ships compared to big lumbering Battleships? Besides as we've already established you *can* fit to deal with these smaller ships it's just going to hurt you in other ways.
Joe Risalo wrote:Also
I wanted to add that the name may need to be changed as bastion would be specific to the Marauder.
One more thing to add. The changes to TP cycle time is EPIC, however, since they're the least effective ewar out there, perhaps they should also have their optimal/falloff removed and instead be able to work at any range, as long as you can lock the target. This sounds fair to me... Or at least give them a max range instead of optimal/falloff, and then give specific ships (like golem) a TP range bonus.
TPs are, overall, affecting the same game interactions as webs but don't have a range control aspect. Both pieces of EWar make enemies easier to hit.
In exchange Target Painters work at far longer ranges than Webs do. Also overall the optimal/falloff setup is far better for Target Painters than a flat max range would be since it allows them to work at least a little at any range. Whether or not it would be balanced to see their ranges adjusted is another matter though, but one far outside the scope of a discussion on Marauders since it touches on a huge number of game mechanics and interactions.
I would suggest making another thread if you want to open a discussion on the matter. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 09:06:00 -
[3770] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Shantetha wrote:it's one module that does the job of 2, there is not marginal utility over it's massive utility over. Why did they limit the AAR to 1 module vs have 2 of those (irrespective of the fact that cap boosters are massively cheaper then nanopaste) Except it doesn't do the job of two. It's a shield booster that runs off of cap-booster charges, but it doesn't give you any cap to run other modules like guns, MWD, other tank, Neuts, ect. This is why I say that flatly limiting it to one might push it into the realm of uselessness in many PvP situations. Of somewhat more concern to me is that it reps about 1.5 times what a T2 Shield Booster does which is where the sillyness with rep bonuses starts to be a problem. ...snip...
The ASB was designed to give a burst repair for shields on ships that skirmish. It was in response to complaints that shield-skirmishing ships general had very low ehp and were at an unfair disadvantage in the face of medium range weaponry. I am talking about cruisers and battlecruisers here. It was given a 1-minute reload time in a deliberate measure to ensure that it was not used as a 'tank', but only as a 'battlefield repair' module.
Fitting two, with a large supply of cap boosters circumvents the burst limitation. A limitation that was deliberately designed in - so that the game did not become overly imbalanced.
Some ships can dual-fit ASBs to great effect - obviating shield boosters. This is wrong. Shield marauders and some shield battleships can dual-fit ASBs to incredible effect, completely undermining and overwhelming all other active tank modules regardless of cost.
i.e. broken.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
205
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 11:52:00 -
[3771] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:The ASB was designed to give a burst repair for shields on ships that skirmish. It was in response to complaints that shield-skirmishing ships general had very low ehp and were at an unfair disadvantage in the face of medium range weaponry. I am talking about cruisers and battlecruisers here. It was given a 1-minute reload time in a deliberate measure to ensure that it was not used as a 'tank', but only as a 'battlefield repair' module.
Fitting two, with a large supply of cap boosters circumvents the burst limitation. A limitation that was deliberately designed in - so that the game did not become overly imbalanced.
Some ships can dual-fit ASBs to great effect - obviating shield boosters. This is wrong. Shield marauders and some shield battleships can dual-fit ASBs to incredible effect, completely undermining and overwhelming all other active tank modules regardless of cost.
i.e. broken.
These are good points, though I'm not sure that dual ASB fits qualify as broken in most cases just because in most of the cases where it would be useful it's also taxing your tank hugely and you'd get more utility out of a single Shield Booster and a Cap Booster.
On the other hand there's how something was originally designed and then there's how its being used. For that matter how many are actually being used?
I want to get it out of the way here and say that regardless of the original niche intent CCP needs to decide what they're comfortable with the various sizes of ASB doing and where they want it to fall, it could be that while in theory these are problematic fits in reality they're highly impractical. Certainly the Vargur tanks that are giving us so much worry aren't exactly practical, they're just hard to kill, and as someone pointed out you end up spending quite a bit on Cap Boosters. If someone wants to troll people by sitting and tanking for half an hour before blowing up at the cost of 1.5 billion ISK in modules, hull, and cap boosters then let them have at it.
All of that said the Eve Markets Supply and Demand stats on the various sizes of Ancillary Shield Booster are rather interesting.
Essentially there are far more people selling these things than there are people attempting to buy them, and if you click over on the price tab the price has been dropping since they were released too but the slowness of the drop further suggests very little movement in the markets, with people gradually lowering prices to try to move product rather than the rapid approaching of base costs you get for most T1 modules.
Rather amusingly I could actually make at least the X-Large variant 'profitably' and I'm by no means an industrialist beyond the skills I got from the old character creation system. Profitably in quotes there because I rather doubt I'd be able to actually sell the things.
So, yeah, overall I would say we won't be looking at an infestation of Ancillary Shield Booster fit ships any time soon. It probably deserves a second look but I just don't see it being a major issue even with Marauders unless they seriously screw up the bonuses on these things. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 12:56:00 -
[3772] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Essentially there are far more people selling these things than there are people attempting to buy them, and if you click over on the price tab the price has been dropping since they were released too but the slowness of the drop further suggests very little movement in the markets, with people gradually lowering prices to try to move product rather than the rapid approaching of base costs you get for most T1 modules.
Rather amusingly I could actually make at least the X-Large variant 'profitably' and I'm by no means an industrialist beyond the skills I got from the old character creation system. Profitably in quotes there because I rather doubt I'd be able to actually sell the things.
So, yeah, overall I would say we won't be looking at an infestation of Ancillary Shield Booster fit ships any time soon. It probably deserves a second look but I just don't see it being a major issue even with Marauders unless they seriously screw up the bonuses on these things.
althogh its offtopic... your obersvation is right but your conclusion may be wrong
your explanation snt the only (and probably not the simplest) which would be there was an overproduction at release which hasnt corrected itself by now.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 13:42:00 -
[3773] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Also
I wanted to add that the name may need to be changed as bastion would be specific to the Marauder.
One more thing to add. The changes to TP cycle time is EPIC, however, since they're the least effective ewar out there, perhaps they should also have their optimal/falloff removed and instead be able to work at any range, as long as you can lock the target. This sounds fair to me... Or at least give them a max range instead of optimal/falloff, and then give specific ships (like golem) a TP range bonus. so whats the reason for no tractor /salvage? i hate using noctis i must have tractor/salvage on my marauder
The hull itself would not have the tractor bonus, however, when fitted with a bastion it would. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 13:47:00 -
[3774] - Quote
Snipping cause no one is reading
Standard Flight Mode
1) Balance the resistances on the Marauders This would be unique to Marauders and would fit their role quite well. Example Golem - current 0% EM - 50% EX - 47.5% KI - 40% TH Post Suggestion (roughly) 34 - 34 - 35 - 34 This would allow Marauders to build balanced tanks based off of these resists, giving them an ability that fits their description.
2) Balance the Hull around a brawler design.
I.E. - Their bonuses will be focused on damage application. Tracking/exp radius/velocity focused bonuses. They would also be bonused towards MWD. At all skills lvl 5, with no mods, these ships would be able to track any battleship at any range, perfectly.
3) Weak sensors, but stronger than they are now.
4) Much better agility and mobility
5) Smaller mass
6) Shield/armor/structure are balanced somewhere in between current and proposed on this thread.
7) 6 highs instead of 7. If that slot needs to be given back to the ship, then it should be returned in either mid or low, depending on what CCP feels would be most balanced.
8) These ships would not be balanced towards utility, but would have that option due to spare slots.
9) No salvage/tractor bonus
10) Better scan res... possibly better than proposed in this thread
11) Would not have range bonuses at all.
This means the base hull of these ships would be designed specifically to be brawlers with balanced resists and propulsion bonuses.
These would be effective in PVE for those that like close range, high speed, and would be extremely effective in all forms of pvp. They would also fit well in PVE fleets, even with long range weapons.
Bastion Module
IMPORTANT - My design idea behind the bastion module is that it would eventually be usable on many other ships, both being new ships, and existing ships and would have different effects on each ship.
1) The Bastion Module would not require a high slot, but instead, would have it's own slot much like subs on t3's
2) The bonuses for bastion mode would replace all the bonuses of the fitted ship
3) The bonuses for the bastion mode would be hull specific
4) Different sizes of bastion modules in the event they were ever designed for smaller ships I.E. small, medium, large
5) Bastion module would effect each possible ship differently
In the case of Marauders, they would be ANCHORED immediately. This also means that when you activate the module, you would be instantly anchored, reguardless of velocity. This would also keep CCP from having to worry about locking ships using this module because they wouldn't be able to warp, jump, use a WH, or move. So, they wouldn't have to increase the mass to avoid bumping, because this ship wouldn't move at all. (increasing mass means you could scan them down with no skill and one probe) PERHAPS TAKING DAMAGE IF AT TOO HIGH OF A VELOCITY
6) Bastion module being fitted reduces velocity and agility by X%
Now
Bastion Mode Marauder
As stated under Bastion module, all the bonuses change Retains all base hull stats
1) Damage bonus either carries over, or drops/raises depending on what CCP would bonus the base hulls as.. Bastion, I would assume stays 100% damage.
2) When bastioned, gains a bonus towards tractor range. I would say comparable to that of the Noctis. (noctis would still stay on top due to 8 high slots)
3) Range bonuses
4) TP bonus in the case of the Golem, bonus to the effectiveness of tracking modules in the case of the turret boats, and bonuses towards sentry tracking in the case of the Kronos
5) Bastion module being fitted converts the Kronos into a sentry drone focused ship with all bonuses focused on sentries. (assuming a sentry boat would be preferred over a rail boat)
6) Tank boost buff while bastioned
7) Possibly a resist buff while bastioned
8) ewar immunity
9) A) MJD cycle bonus B) Range bonus (150-200km range) C) Able to select a range (anything 50km or more)
10) unable to receive remote assistance
11) (possible suggestion I read) - only bastion ships may assist each other (my change to it) - with cap assistance and nothing else.
This would mean that you have a PVP boat that has pve potential with a role being specifically a brawler. It would be niche while being used in some pve situations. However, the Bastioned mode would be a PVE focused boat with it's role being a tanky, sniper. It would be niche in pvp, but highly effective in certain situations such as breaking small roams, breaking small to med gate camps, and bait.
You would be required to commit, which is why I have proposed it being more like a sub system, so that once it's fitted, you're stuck in that role, instead of being able to simply online/offline a module, or simply swap a script. No ship should have the capability of changing roles on a whim.
Alternately, those of you stating that the marauders need to be more versatile that t1, navy, or pirate didn't take a look when CCP stated the design plans of ships. T2 ships are focused, t1 ships are versatile, navy are more focused than t1 and more versatile than t2, while pirate were designed to have the ultimate versatility with utility.(or something along that lines(was a long time ago))
I feel this is the best way to design marauders.
Now, with the Bastion module having a slot specifically for it, it would mean that other ships could be modified to allow a bastion module.
Black Ops BS's Orca Mining Barges/exhumers Industrials Noctis Primus Freighters
Basically, every ship would be different when fitting a bastion module. I.E. Hulk - range bonus at the cost of yield (reach a whole belt from warp in point) Mack - Mine gas and take no damage at all, can't mine ore/ice. Those are just some possible Bastion effects.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 13:51:00 -
[3775] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Also
I wanted to add that the name may need to be changed as bastion would be specific to the Marauder.
One more thing to add. The changes to TP cycle time is EPIC, however, since they're the least effective ewar out there, perhaps they should also have their optimal/falloff removed and instead be able to work at any range, as long as you can lock the target. This sounds fair to me... Or at least give them a max range instead of optimal/falloff, and then give specific ships (like golem) a TP range bonus. TPs are, overall, affecting the same game interactions as webs but don't have a range control aspect. Both pieces of EWar make enemies easier to hit. In exchange Target Painters work at far longer ranges than Webs do. Also overall the optimal/falloff setup is far better for Target Painters than a flat max range would be since it allows them to work at least a little at any range. Whether or not it would be balanced to see their ranges adjusted is another matter though, but one far outside the scope of a discussion on Marauders since it touches on a huge number of game mechanics and interactions. I would suggest making another thread if you want to open a discussion on the matter.
I only added that to my part of the discussion because the OP mentions the TP balance. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 15:51:00 -
[3776] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:As far as the web bonus is concerned, I'd like to see them fix the underlying problem instead of treating the symptom. The only reason you need webs at all on a BS size platform is to control smaller ships that have gotten "under your guns". In PVE this isn't really a problem because a single flight of light drones with even basic drone skills can bring them down quickly.
In PVP where those smaller ships don't have crap tanks and no hitpoints to speak of that flight of drones won't even scratch their tank. A BS is completely helpless against smaller craft. The exception being cruise missile ships with target painters and precision cruise missiles. 2-3 painters and precision will make them go pop quite nicely. Turret platforms are just out of luck in this situation.
I don't know how you fix this without doing a complete weapon system rework. A good start would be to forklift the existing tracking formula and start with something a little more realistic. Like smaller ships being harder to hit farther away instead of easier... This is pretty much working as intended. The smaller ship has far fewer hitpoints, less range, and lower damage than the large ship, in exchange it's harder to apply damage to and has a chance against larger ships by avoiding damage. Eve is not supposed to be a linear progression like with, say, World of Warcraft swords where you "level up" or in this case gain skill points and everything gets progressively bigger and better. Certainly Battleships are bug and useful and the mainstay of a lot of combat but is it really a problem for them to be out-done in solo situations by smaller more maneuverable craft? Personally I'd say no, that's fine. What's the problem with Cruisers and Frigates as more viable solo ships compared to big lumbering Battleships? Besides as we've already established you *can* fit to deal with these smaller ships it's just going to hurt you in other ways. I agree with you about the general intent of the current system. It would make for a very bad model if moving up a class made you trump anything below you. That's not a game that would be particularly interesting to play. I'm more talking about the complete ineffectiveness of larger hulls to deal with ships that are down a class.
Unless the battleship fits cruiser size turrets in some of its highs its only option for dealing with small targets at close range is to deploy light/medium drones. The problem is that a flight of lights/mediums doesn't pack enough punch to break the tank of those targets. Unless you have utility highs and fit heavy neuts you don't have many options for escape either.
The role is reversed at range with the smaller ship risking getting blapped off the field just because it's at range. Not a fun prospect for the cruiser/frigate pilot too. What I'd like to see is the removal of those two extreme cases. The cruiser/frigates smaller size should offer some protection at range which decreases as it gets closer, while the BS wouldn't become completely ineffective against smaller targets at minimal range. No certain death for the cruiser/frigate pilot at range and no guaranteed lockdown for the BS in CQ. I think that would be more balanced and offer a more dynamic environment.
Note: As I mentioned earlier, with precision cruise and 3 TPs or 2 bonused TPs a missile ship can apply 75%+ damage to said targets at all ranges. I know this is what sets missiles apart from turrets. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 16:08:00 -
[3777] - Quote
I would also like to see less utility highs on these ships i liked the CS approach .. cos while for pve it makes sense too have it the way it is for pvp it just leads to lots of neuts combined with strong web bonuses and T2 resists would surely make these OP.. I guess reducing fittings could be an answer too... something like this:-
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level 7.5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 7M, 4L; 0 turrets, 6 launchers Fittings: 8500 PWG (+2000), 715 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300) default resits 25% in bastion mode Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325(+700) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 5.5 cap/s (-0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10 Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric Signature radius: 450(-125) Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Hagika
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
199
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 16:16:00 -
[3778] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Suzuka A1 wrote:As a missile user I must say that a web bonus on the Golem seems very stupid. I would much prefer a increase in explosion velocity or a 2nd bonus to TP instead. Golem +25% missile velocity +30% missile explosion velocity +20% missile explosion radius there are your bastion module stats. in addition to the pre existing golem bonuses you just fixed this ships problem. Golem now has the best way to apply damage in the game.
Yes please..
Missile boats, are in need of faster missiles that apply damage better.
|

Hagika
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
199
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 16:28:00 -
[3779] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:[quote=Suzuka A1] Golem +25% missile velocity +30% missile explosion velocity +20% missile explosion radius
there are your bastion module stats.
Bastion mode doesn't give any turret tracking bonuses, so no, no missile tracking bonuses for you 
I wouldnt call explosion velocity a tracking bonus. Besides missiles do reduced damage on ship speed,sig radius and still take forever to hit a target, which is why guns are preferred in pvp in like ooooooh 90% of pvp fights.
|

Hagika
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
201
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 -
[3780] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them.
That right here is exactly how it should be..Easily makes them a whole lot better and fits the pvp/PVE role and even makes them good for incursions. |
|

Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
144
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 17:07:00 -
[3781] - Quote
2 Small changes I'ld like to see happen: 1. Swap the damage and cap bonus on the paladin to bring it in line with al the other marauders that get their damage bonus from the bs skill. 2. Increase the range of tractorbeams to beyond 50k so tractor beam reach areas overlap between micro jumps. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1402
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 17:46:00 -
[3782] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:I would also like to see less utility highs on these ships i liked the CS approach .. cos while for pve it makes sense too have it the way it is for pvp it just leads to lots of neuts combined with strong web bonuses and T2 resists would surely make these OP.. I guess reducing fittings could be an answer too... something like this:-
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level 7.5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 7M, 4L; 0 turrets, 6 launchers Fittings: 8500 PWG (+2000), 715 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300) default resits 25% in bastion mode Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325(+700) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 5.5 cap/s (-0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10 Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric Signature radius: 450(-125)
Solution, don't ******* give them t2 res. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
180
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 19:58:00 -
[3783] - Quote
Hagika wrote:Bullet Therapist wrote:I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
GÇó Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
GÇó Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
GÇó Marauders Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level 4% bonus to shield resistances per level
GÇó Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers GÇó Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU GÇó Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000 GÇó Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM GÇó Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM GÇó Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s GÇó Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s GÇó Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 GÇó Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10 GÇó Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric GÇó Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.
BASTION MODULE
GÇó Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25% GÇó Increases shield, armor and hull by 25% GÇó Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% GÇó Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% GÇó Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25% GÇó When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp. GÇó Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them. That right here is exactly how it should be..Easily makes them a whole lot better and fits the pvp/PVE role and even makes them good for incursions.
"25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp" That sounds interesting. Basically a free rep/boost and cap transfer cycle.
If CCP comes even close to something like this, I think a lot of people can get behind it. I likes... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 20:40:00 -
[3784] - Quote
No one seems to have cared about my suggestion.
This makes me a sad panda... |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
168
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 21:36:00 -
[3785] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:No one seems to have cared about my suggestion.
This makes me a sad panda...
Well, I think the problem is that everyone - and I am not innocent of it either - seem to have this special idea in our brains, of what a Marauder is "supposed" to do, and personally I get confused still when I see very detailed posts with numbers cause I can follow a "general effect" but I have no idea what hard numbers will work, and which ones break equations.
It would be far easier for CCP to introduce a second Marauder hull to do all this messing with, and let people vote by if and when such hulls get flown around.
Seems to me that making GARGANTUAN changes to a ship that's already been flown by quite a few people just they way it is for many, many years, is a bit of a stretch. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Proteionos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 21:50:00 -
[3786] - Quote
It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.
Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.
But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.
I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?
Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?
Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :) |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 22:00:00 -
[3787] - Quote
Proteionos wrote:It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.
Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.
But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.
I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?
Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?
Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :)
i am pretty sure the 100% repair when bastions is active is still there. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 23:48:00 -
[3788] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level
same way golem with painter and web would suck golem with both of those would be op |

Tsukihi Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 01:33:00 -
[3789] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Proteionos wrote:It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.
Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.
But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.
I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?
Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?
Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :) i am pretty sure the 100% repair when bastions is active is still there.
But that 100% repair is almost uselessn+î cuz you are one brick which receive full damage. Speed is very important for any kind of tanking. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 01:58:00 -
[3790] - Quote
Tsukihi Hareka wrote:Mer88 wrote:Proteionos wrote:It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.
Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.
But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.
I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?
Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?
Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :) i am pretty sure the 100% repair when bastions is active is still there. But that 100% repair is almost uselessn+î cuz you are one brick which receive full damage. Speed is very important for any kind of tanking. As for Golem, standing still receive more than 100% damage from npc torps and cruise and large gunfires. So the new Golem is just a pile of epic shxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxt(with worse recap). Other Marauders are a little better than Golem maybe, but just a little.
Especially after the torp range nerfs... It's much better with cruise now though. That said, I went in order from drake, raven, RNI, SNI, Golem, traded it for a tengu, then nightmare. Torpedo golem was the most fun, but you couldn't tank for long cause of cap, took full volley damage by the time you could hit anything due to sig, took forever to lock anything, and that's when you could lock anything. My nightmare outshines all but the tengu(pre-hml nerf) and does so with instant dps.
Everyone of those ships out tanks the golem as it sits on live because of the cap and sig issues |
|

Tsukihi Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 02:08:00 -
[3791] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tsukihi Hareka wrote:Mer88 wrote:Proteionos wrote:It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.
Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.
But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.
I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?
Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?
Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :) i am pretty sure the 100% repair when bastions is active is still there. But that 100% repair is almost uselessn+î cuz you are one brick which receive full damage. Speed is very important for any kind of tanking. As for Golem, standing still receive more than 100% damage from npc torps and cruise and large gunfires. So the new Golem is just a pile of epic shxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxt(with worse recap). Other Marauders are a little better than Golem maybe, but just a little. Especially after the torp range nerfs... It's much better with cruise now though. That said, I went in order from drake, raven, RNI, SNI, Golem, traded it for a tengu, then nightmare. Torpedo golem was the most fun, but you couldn't tank for long cause of cap, took full volley damage by the time you could hit anything due to sig, took forever to lock anything, and that's when you could lock anything. My nightmare outshines all but the tengu(pre-hml nerf) and does so with instant dps. Everyone of those ships out tanks the golem as it sits on live because of the cap and sig issues
In fact, after all these changes made to Marauder, I only want a pure missle pirate battleship.
Give me a missle pirate battleship then I can ignore all Marauders. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
447
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 02:37:00 -
[3792] - Quote
Tsukihi Hareka wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Tsukihi Hareka wrote:Mer88 wrote:Proteionos wrote:It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.
Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.
But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.
I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?
Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?
Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :) i am pretty sure the 100% repair when bastions is active is still there. But that 100% repair is almost uselessn+î cuz you are one brick which receive full damage. Speed is very important for any kind of tanking. As for Golem, standing still receive more than 100% damage from npc torps and cruise and large gunfires. So the new Golem is just a pile of epic shxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxt(with worse recap). Other Marauders are a little better than Golem maybe, but just a little. Especially after the torp range nerfs... It's much better with cruise now though. That said, I went in order from drake, raven, RNI, SNI, Golem, traded it for a tengu, then nightmare. Torpedo golem was the most fun, but you couldn't tank for long cause of cap, took full volley damage by the time you could hit anything due to sig, took forever to lock anything, and that's when you could lock anything. My nightmare outshines all but the tengu(pre-hml nerf) and does so with instant dps. Everyone of those ships out tanks the golem as it sits on live because of the cap and sig issues In fact, after all these changes made to Marauder, I only want a pure missle pirate battleship. Give me a missle pirate battleship then I can ignore all Marauders.
Well, pve wise I think the bastion will do what it's intended to do.. Most people in marauders don't kite missions anyways. That said though, I would still much rather see the 30% omni bastion bonus than t2 bonuses
I still like my idea of changing marauder resists to be more balanced. Look up some and you'll see my long ass suggestion. However, the balanced resists I suggested is my favorite idea, and fits well with marauders |

Melek D'Ivri
617 Squadron
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 03:49:00 -
[3793] - Quote
Is there a date set for test server availability of the new ships and module? |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
359
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 03:56:00 -
[3794] - Quote
Melek D'Ivri wrote:Is there a date set for test server availability of the new ships and module?
no, but i bet that there is a tq date set Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
209
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 05:25:00 -
[3795] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I agree with you about the general intent of the current system. It would make for a very bad model if moving up a class made you trump anything below you. That's not a game that would be particularly interesting to play. I'm more talking about the complete ineffectiveness of larger hulls to deal with ships that are down a class.
Unless the battleship fits cruiser size turrets in some of its highs its only option for dealing with small targets at close range is to deploy light/medium drones. The problem is that a flight of lights/mediums doesn't pack enough punch to break the tank of those targets. Unless you have utility highs and fit heavy neuts you don't have many options for escape either.
The role is reversed at range with the smaller ship risking getting blapped off the field just because it's at range. Not a fun prospect for the cruiser/frigate pilot too. What I'd like to see is the removal of those two extreme cases. The cruiser/frigates smaller size should offer some protection at range which decreases as it gets closer, while the BS wouldn't become completely ineffective against smaller targets at minimal range. No certain death for the cruiser/frigate pilot at range and no guaranteed lockdown for the BS in CQ. I think that would be more balanced and offer a more dynamic environment.
Note: As I mentioned earlier, with precision cruise and 3 TPs or 2 bonused TPs a missile ship can apply 75%+ damage to said targets at all ranges. I know this is what sets missiles apart from turrets.
I more or less agree with you on all points, actually. I just don't think that hilariously powerful velocity bonused webs are the way to go about fixing this.
There was a recent discussion in another thread (and by recent I mean last month or so) about the balance implications of Rapid Light Missile Launchers on a Caracal and its effectiveness at applying damage to smaller ships.
Someone brought up that in general smaller caliber weapons are almost entirely useless in the current meta and are only fit if you have no other choice, either due to power-grid restrictions or in some niche cases massive capacitor issues. This is not the case for missiles which still see use out of their Precision Ammunition and things like the Rapid Light Missile Launcher which is almost specifically designed for shooting down a class.
In addressing a problem like this I would love to see a retooling of the smallest sizes of turret, at least for Cruisers and Battleships, to be more able to engage smaller targets, probably at the expense of DPS, alpha, and/or something else to make it a fair and meaningful trade-off. The problem with this is that it's a rather large undertaking and would require significant changes to pretty much every type of Medium and Large turret and certain categories of Artillery and Lasers might end up needing a third turret size. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
209
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 05:27:00 -
[3796] - Quote
Tsukihi Hareka wrote:But that 100% repair is almost uselessn+î cuz you are one brick which receive full damage. Speed is very important for any kind of tanking.
As for Golem, standing still receive more than 100% damage from npc torps and cruise and large gunfires.
So the new Golem is just a pile of epic shxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxt(with worse recap). Other Marauders are a little better than Golem maybe, but just a little.
Actually with Battleships unless you're being shot at by dreadnaughts speed has very little affect on your damage unless you and your opponent are counter-rotating (you're both maximizing the overall transversal) and even then you're both equally hosed. In missions gun platforms generally want to stay still unless they have very high tracking because the damage mitigation against mission rats is fairly low and it's more important to be dealing full DPS.
The various missile boats are an exception because their damage is only affected by enemy velocity not their own movement.
Kane Fenris wrote:althogh its offtopic... your obersvation is right but your conclusion may be wrong
your explanation snt the only (and probably not the simplest) which would be there was an overproduction at release which hasnt corrected itself by now.
There are certainly other available explanations, though I feel the idea that these modules are suffering from an over-stock that's managed to persist for over a year since their inception only supports my idea more strongly, since for that to occur you'd have to have almost none of the modules being bought and used.
DSpite Culhach wrote:Well, I think the problem is that everyone - and I am not innocent of it either - seem to have this special idea in our brains, of what a Marauder is "supposed" to do, and personally I get confused still when I see very detailed posts with numbers cause I can follow a "general effect" but I have no idea what hard numbers will work, and which ones break equations.
It would be far easier for CCP to introduce a second Marauder hull to do all this messing with, and let people vote by if and when such hulls get flown around.
Seems to me that making GARGANTUAN changes to a ship that's already been flown by quite a few people just they way it is for many, many years, is a bit of a stretch.
The problem is more that it's flown by a relatively small number of people in one very niche profession, and can arguably be out-done in that professions by other ships.
The problem with just throwing a second Marauder hull into the game and then seeing what gets used the most is that out of N possible options the one that's used the most is likely to be over-powered. Plus any idea would need to go through at least a little balance testing internally, so every version is more work and more data for them to process and their time isn't unlimited.
Joe Risalo wrote:Especially after the torp range nerfs... It's much better with cruise now though. That said, I went in order from drake, raven, RNI, SNI, Golem, traded it for a tengu, then nightmare. Torpedo golem was the most fun, but you couldn't tank for long cause of cap, took full volley damage by the time you could hit anything due to sig, took forever to lock anything, and that's when you could lock anything. My nightmare outshines all but the tengu(pre-hml nerf) and does so with instant dps.
Everyone of those ships out tanks the golem as it sits on live because of the cap and sig issues
You can only take full damage from a hit based on sig, you can't take increased damage. Therefore the Golem, with its rep rate bonus, will tank better than even a resist bonused ship.
The caveat to this is that you may not be eliminating incoming DPS fast enough compared to some of those other hulls.
I can't 100% guarantee you though that you are not, in absolute terms, tanking better in a Nightmare than a Golem. |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 05:29:00 -
[3797] - Quote
Tsukihi Hareka wrote:
In fact, after all these changes made to Marauder, I only want a pure missle pirate battleship.
Give me a missle pirate battleship then I can ignore all Marauders.
Hopefully "They" can rebalance the Rattlesnake to make Drone and missile users happy without making it completely worthless to one or the other play style like it is currently.
Then I could go back to ignoring the Tech II Battleships again while quietly laughing to myself at any poor SOB I saw flying one.
|

Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 05:32:00 -
[3798] - Quote
i still think its a legitimate option to make marauders just plain all around better then pirate in all ways.... and i thought of something that would keep myself interested anyway. In addition to their already high skill requirement, could always make them all split weapon systems XD |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
242
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:29:00 -
[3799] - Quote
From the sounds of it, would highly like the 100% repairamount to become a 50% cycletime-reduction + 50% cap consumption reduction. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

chaosjj
State Enforcement Directive
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 07:53:00 -
[3800] - Quote
These changes are making me and my Kronos happy! |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
508
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 08:01:00 -
[3801] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:From the sounds of it, would highly like the 100% repairamount to become a 50% cycletime-reduction + 50% cap consumption reduction. In fact, some active tanking mods (ahem) could use this treatment applied to them, regardless of the hull... But that's another, pretty much flame-inducing, topic...
But wait. If your idea is to be implemented, it can solve that pesky ASB-on-the-marauder-with-GOOD-bastion-mod issue. Here, have your sick burst tank, but you will have to reload it much sooner.
And while we are at it, it's possible to set the numbers differently to balance dem mods out, for example:
-50% cycle time; -50% cap consumption; +0% repair amount.
Or:
-33% cycle time; -33% cap consumption; +34% repair amount.
etc. Unless I messed up with numbers, that still amounts to "+100% HP per second" while allowing devs to tweak ancillary/normal mods balance.
The downside is, as always, that AARs are completely screwed up unless you can specifically make a bonus to paste consumption. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
211
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 08:25:00 -
[3802] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:From the sounds of it, would highly like the 100% repairamount to become a 50% cycletime-reduction + 50% cap consumption reduction. In fact, some active tanking mods (ahem) could use this treatment applied to them, regardless of the hull... But that's another, pretty much flame-inducing, topic... But wait. If your idea is to be implemented, it can solve that pesky ASB-on-the-marauder-with-GOOD-bastion-mod issue. Here, have your sick burst tank, but you will have to reload it much sooner. And while we are at it, it's possible to set the numbers differently to balance dem mods out, for example: -50% cycle time; -50% cap consumption; +0% repair amount. Or: -33% cycle time; -33% cap consumption; +34% repair amount. etc. Unless I messed up numbers, that still amounts to "+100% HP per second using same amount of cap per second" while allowing devs to tweak ancillary/normal mods balance. The downside is, as always, that AARs are completely screwed up unless you can specifically make a bonus to paste consumption.
I am really liking this idea since it rather neatly gets around the ASB debacle while affecting AARs at least less if not leaving them completely unaffected.
I have a niggling concern over the potential effects when combine with certain deadspace modules but overall I like the idea of a more sustained tank (part of the objective of a mission fit) over ridiculous burst tanking a lot more. Plus it helps against annoying neuting enemies by letting you potentially get more rep cycles off before they clean out your cap again, or even get rep cycles off at all. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 09:06:00 -
[3803] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:althogh its offtopic... your obersvation is right but your conclusion may be wrong
your explanation snt the only (and probably not the simplest) which would be there was an overproduction at release which hasnt corrected itself by now.
There are certainly other available explanations, though I feel the idea that these modules are suffering from an over-stock that's managed to persist for over a year since their inception only supports my idea more strongly, since for that to occur you'd have to have almost none of the modules being bought and used.
i agree with you but one could easily come to a diffrent conclusion
lets say uses are equaly distributed over all ships in eve (asumption! this is just to explain the thought) 1/2 pvp 1/2 shield 1/2 active 1/2 solo/smallscale 1/2 of the active smallscale asb (opposed to active non asb) that leaves 1/32 of all ships fitted with asb number for conventional would be larger cause the use is not that specialized (alone all active pve shield fits amount to 1/8)
so now the next asumption which is just the opposite to yours: the modules are quite good! this would end up that of those asb ships (1/32 off all ships) less get destroyed than those ships that oppose them.
so you would end up with small sale values even the module does not suck. and this would mean its easy thinkable that the overstock still persists
the problem of low small sale values is just there because the number of ships useing the modules is small there may be a problem in future cause i think changes to armor tanking havent hit the meta to the whole possible extend. i like asb's in smallscale pvp and think they are mostly fine.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
212
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 10:14:00 -
[3804] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:i agree with you but one could easily come to a diffrent conclusion
lets say uses are equaly distributed over all ships in eve (asumption! this is just to explain the thought) 1/2 pvp 1/2 shield 1/2 active 1/2 solo/smallscale 1/2 of the active smallscale asb (opposed to active non asb) that leaves 1/32 of all ships fitted with asb number for conventional would be larger cause the use is not that specialized (alone all active pve shield fits amount to 1/8)
so now the next asumption which is just the opposite to yours: the modules are quite good! this would end up that of those asb ships (1/32 off all ships) less get destroyed than those ships that oppose them.
so you would end up with small sale values even the module does not suck. and this would mean its easy thinkable that the overstock still persists
the problem of low small sale values is just there because the number of ships useing the modules is small there may be a problem in future cause i think changes to armor tanking havent hit the meta to the whole possible extend. i like asb's in smallscale pvp and think they are mostly fine.
I actually considered the use-case where the modules weren't selling simply because the ships weren't dying and I find it highly unrealistic.
Overall local tank gets beaten by Logi and people tend to fly solo ships until they die, plus we've already established that only a fraction of hulls can actually fit a dual ASB tank and those that can only fit a single ASB are at something of a disadvantage in a protracted fight even against a single opponent.
Plus if the modules were really that good and that popular then you'd actually see more of them getting destroyed since it would be ASB fit vs ASB fit, which would increase demand since someone in that fight is going to lose. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 11:56:00 -
[3805] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: I actually considered the use-case where the modules weren't selling simply because the ships weren't dying and I find it highly unrealistic.
not dyining and not dying as often isnt the same dying not as often will just be another thing that slows sales
Cade Windstalker wrote: Overall local tank gets beaten by Logi and people tend to fly solo ships until they die, plus we've already established that only a fraction of hulls can actually fit a dual ASB tank and those that can only fit a single ASB are at something of a disadvantage in a protracted fight even against a single opponent.
you got some things right and some things wrong here and some things neither nor... yes solo pilots tend to fly ships till they explode. but for this subject it does only matter if they kill more than one ship before they pop at average and i belive most solo pilots choose there fights wisely enough. (and for that matter solo pilots in asb just one kill more than an non asb...)
i sense we could have a lenghy discusion about pvp in general but since this is already offtopic i want to keep it as short aas possible
Cade Windstalker wrote: Plus if the modules were really that good and that popular then you'd actually see more of them getting destroyed since it would be ASB fit vs ASB fit, which would increase demand since someone in that fight is going to lose.
this is a valid point but i think 1 on 1 fights are just a very small part of eve pvp mainly done by ppl in high sec and those tend to have logis to cheat their duels ...
|

Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 12:20:00 -
[3806] - Quote
Idea. Meh base stats, lots of slots like 8/8/7 for shielders, and 100/125 bandwidth/bay. What could possibly go wrong? |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
243
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:37:00 -
[3807] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:From the sounds of it, would highly like the 100% repairamount to become a 50% cycletime-reduction + 50% cap consumption reduction. In fact, some active tanking mods (ahem) could use this treatment applied to them, regardless of the hull... But that's another, pretty much flame-inducing, topic... But wait. If your idea is to be implemented, it can solve that pesky ASB-on-the-marauder-with-GOOD-bastion-mod issue. Here, have your sick burst tank, but you will have to reload it much sooner. And while we are at it, it's possible to set the numbers differently to balance dem mods out, for example: -50% cycle time; -50% cap consumption; +0% repair amount. Or: -33% cycle time; -33% cap consumption; +34% repair amount. etc. Unless I messed up numbers, that still amounts to "+100% HP per second using same amount of cap per second" while allowing devs to tweak ancillary/normal mods balance. The downside is, as always, that AARs are completely screwed up unless you can specifically make a bonus to paste consumption. I am really liking this idea since it rather neatly gets around the ASB debacle while affecting AARs at least less if not leaving them completely unaffected. I have a niggling concern over the potential effects when combine with certain deadspace modules but overall I like the idea of a more sustained tank (part of the objective of a mission fit) over ridiculous burst tanking a lot more. Plus it helps against annoying neuting enemies by letting you potentially get more rep cycles off before they clean out your cap again, or even get rep cycles off at all.
My main concern for a long time now has been he way to huge repamounts given the basehp. On a lowsec vargur (HG crystals, CS-links, strong blue), you're achieving something around the 7k shieldboosts, or near 80% of your max HP. While it is okay for shields which are easy to apply tahnks to instaboosts, go over to armor <.<
10k buffer, repping 6k with each AAR cycle.... sure. Nice design. This' gonna bleed structure nonstop.
Cycletime and capreduction is mostly the only choice to not mess it up with the uberapplications made possible by ASBs/AARs. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:50:00 -
[3808] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: My main concern for a long time now has been he way to huge repamounts given the basehp. On a lowsec vargur (HG crystals, CS-links, strong blue), you're achieving something around the 7k shieldboosts, or near 80% of your max HP. While it is okay for shields which are easy to apply tahnks to instaboosts, go over to armor <.<
10k buffer, repping 6k with each AAR cycle.... sure. Nice design. This' gonna bleed structure nonstop.
Cycletime and capreduction is mostly the only choice to not mess it up with the uberapplications made possible by ASBs/AARs.
I share your concern about these ubertanks and you make a good point. However my concern is from a different perspective.
I simply don't think it's OK for a battleship to have a 6 or 7k tank, not without logistics support and certainly not a permatank.
This is said by a person who regularly flies solo (or dual box) self rep pvp in a variety of hulls. If anything, you'd expect me to welcome this kind of tank but actually I don't. I get almost 2k/s from a hyperion and that can stand up to 3 or 4 ships easily... for a while.
And that's the point. Making a last stand while tackled is one thing. Easily beating off 8 assailants without batting an eyelid is really no fun for anyone. It's just not challenging.
If bastion has a role (and I am not sure that it does), it should be in evasion, not tanking.
Marauders already tank sufficiently - particularly since the local repair buffs. They don't need any more OPness in PVP - 1500dps from a blaster kronos is fine. What they could use is a way to operate in hostile space while having a good probability of returning in one piece.
Having read most of the posts, it seems to me that simply making them a bit faster and increasing the tractor beam range and speed, plus maybe a little powergrid and CPU would mean that we'd see more of them in space. Having done that, we could look again at whether they need further work.
This bastion thing is an idea looking for a home. That home is not on marauders.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
134
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:17:00 -
[3809] - Quote
Bastion itself would be fir nice into a more supportwise role... I dunno exactly which one but my feelings something like a Bubble with effect which increase something would be nice... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:57:00 -
[3810] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote: My main concern for a long time now has been he way to huge repamounts given the basehp. On a lowsec vargur (HG crystals, CS-links, strong blue), you're achieving something around the 7k shieldboosts, or near 80% of your max HP. While it is okay for shields which are easy to apply tahnks to instaboosts, go over to armor <.<
10k buffer, repping 6k with each AAR cycle.... sure. Nice design. This' gonna bleed structure nonstop.
Cycletime and capreduction is mostly the only choice to not mess it up with the uberapplications made possible by ASBs/AARs.
I share your concern about these ubertanks and you make a good point. However my concern is from a different perspective. I simply don't think it's OK for a battleship to have a 6 or 7k tank, not without logistics support and certainly not a permatank. This is said by a person who regularly flies solo (or dual box) self rep pvp in a variety of hulls. If anything, you'd expect me to welcome this kind of tank but actually I don't. I get almost 2k/s from a hyperion and that can stand up to 3 or 4 ships easily... for a while. And that's the point. Making a last stand while tackled is one thing. Easily beating off 8 assailants without batting an eyelid is really no fun for anyone. It's just not challenging. If bastion has a role (and I am not sure that it does), it should be in evasion, not tanking. Marauders already tank sufficiently - particularly since the local repair buffs. They don't need any more OPness in PVP - 1500dps from a blaster kronos is fine. What they could use is a way to operate in hostile space while having a good probability of returning in one piece. Having read most of the posts, it seems to me that simply making them a bit faster and increasing the tractor beam range and speed, plus maybe a little powergrid and CPU would mean that we'd see more of them in space. Having done that, we could look again at whether they need further work. This bastion thing is an idea looking for a home. That home is not on marauders. This is why I wanted to remove the active tanking bonus from the ranged version of bastion while swapping it out for a raw HP buffer on armor and shields for the stand-and-deliver bastion module/script. This provides the "last stand" scenario without reducing incoming damage or increase self repair. It simply adds time to live. You can't do this with resists because although they increase EHP just like a boost to raw HP, they also increase the local repair EHP/s values as well. That double dip is what makes it too much. I think a boost in time to live would be great. In the case of you versus a group, you might be able to kill mail an additional foe before losing the hull. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |
|

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1218
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 15:09:00 -
[3811] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Marauders already tank sufficiently - particularly since the local repair buffs. They don't need any more OPness in PVP - 1500dps from a blaster kronos is fine. What they could use is a way to operate in hostile space while having a good probability of returning in one piece
Like for instance, instead of "zdat" bastion mode: Bubble immune (but not scram or focused point)
Nothing cloak or whatever the heck transformer-stinky-stuff-leave-that-for-Dust514, just the MJD bonus and bubble immune. This on top of Sensor buff (DO IT TBH !! What you afraid of? hun??) would help them go somewhere do some stuff and eventually get back, eventually means they wouldn't find anyone capable to set a group of players together to counter them and knowing how this ship works. Yep a bit like Black Ops, so many tears about it when those are so easy to counter. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4640
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 15:30:00 -
[3812] - Quote
Somewhat unrelated to the more technical discussions going on I know... but since (presumably) more involved hull animations are now possible, will we soon be seeing something more dynamic in the animation front happening when cap ship Siege and Triage modes are engaged? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
503
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:02:00 -
[3813] - Quote
The issue with rep ammount beign too close to base HP can be solved by changing Bastion bonus from repair ammount into 50% less time on repair/boost cycle and 50% reduction on cap usage of repair/boost modules. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:28:00 -
[3814] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Marauders already tank sufficiently - particularly since the local repair buffs. They don't need any more OPness in PVP - 1500dps from a blaster kronos is fine. What they could use is a way to operate in hostile space while having a good probability of returning in one piece Like for instance, instead of "zdat" bastion mode: Bubble immune (but not scram or focused point) Nothing cloak or whatever the heck transformer-stinky-stuff-leave-that-for-Dust514, just the MJD bonus and bubble immune. This on top of Sensor buff (DO IT TBH !! What you afraid of? hun??) would help them go somewhere do some stuff and eventually get back, eventually means they wouldn't find anyone capable to set a group of players together to counter them and knowing how this ship works. Yep a bit like Black Ops, so many tears about it when those are so easy to counter.
Yup, basically you want the marauder to be able to get through/past a gate without getting blown up every time,
Bastion could do this if it's effect was to allow the MJD to work even when there was a scram on it.
In this case I would suggest that the MJD cooldown is not reduced by the marauder.
This means the marauder would have 1 get-out-of-jail-free card per gate or per mission site. A determined gang could still kill it by re-acquiring a lock with a fast ship before the the marauder warped off (you just need to watch where it's headed and get a point ship out in that direction). They would then have 3 minutes to kill it. or energy neutralise it to the point where it could not MJD again.
In this case the sensor strength should not be increased - it's a pve ship, now with niche pvp application (it can attack until jammed, and then escape - once).
That would make a gank attempt interesting and rewarding for both attackers and defender I think.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Aimee Maken
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:43:00 -
[3815] - Quote
My biggest thing is that this is the most advanced boat in eve in terms of training time needed for a sub cap. And you guys are trying to harmonize them all with the same stick, regardless of the unique weapon system and racial plays they have. What I purpose is to have the goal of the marauders to be GÇ£Showing the best the race has to offer, and to shore up any weakness in that methodGÇ¥
With that in mind, I purpose these things:
For the kornos, the bastion mode will NOT root it in place, but rather give it a reduction to MWD cap use and large sig bloom reduction from MWD. The base agility is increased and base mass in decreased, so that it can turn faster and better while MWDing. This is to enhance the use of blasters, that would mean that a kornos with T2 can be cap stable with either a shield booster / armor rep or a MWD. With bling you should be able to be cap stable with shield booster / armor rep AND a MWD (while still dishing out 1200+ dps at short range). MWD should be on most of the time if not perma on.
For the vargur, the bastion mode will not root it in place, reduce sig radius and give a fall off bonus to projectiles. Coupled with a nice base speed boost, this should emphasize the use of a mobile AC boat for PvE. It would need longer tractor range to 50 KM. It would be a speedy boat that zips around, while having some nice projection power, and staying alive by reducing incoming damage with a low sig, and thus likely to either pulse MWD or to use an AB for the speed boost. This thing wonGÇÖt be cap stable with all mods on, but should be able to dps tank + sig tank.
For the Paladin, the bastion mode will REDUCE its maximum speed, but you would get a large buff to resistance (say +30% armor with the nice T2 resists) with no penalty to RR, and a large bonus to optimal. It would become the brick that can go in and survive while staying in and projecting its power out. It would need longer tractor range to 60 KM. This is to make it the de facto up close and personal tanking and gunning boat, to emphasize the way the empire handles threats. It should be able to easily run 2x large armor rep with a cap booster, or a single one and still be cap stable with guns and no cap booster.
For the Golem, the bastion mode will ROOT it in place, but for that price, the missile speed of CM/Torps should be such that hitting a target within 120 KM will happen long before the missile cycles, also on the hull itself, MWD should get a large reduction in activation time (similar to how the old bonus suppose to work), also on the hull itself, the ROOM inside launchers should be buffed, so that a CM should be able to hold 50 or more missiles in one go. Reload time is still 10 seconds. Its lock range should be near 120 if not 150 in bastion mode. Make sure to have bastion finish cycle before MWD is done. This would mean that the Golem is the premier MWDing CM boat that can push range of 120 with ease and apply that damage in a relatively reliable way. It tanks by outranging anything that can pose a threat to it, and then applying consistent dps without wasting ammo at the enemy. This thing wonGÇÖt be cap stable unless you slap on a ton of rechargers or CPRs, it is designed to avoid incoming damage by simply being 80KM+ from whatever it is doing damage.
This is all from a PvE perspective, if they need to be reworked into PvP roles then the scan res needs to be looked at and they CANNOT BE IMMOBILE, and some of all of the above suggestions needs to be scrapped. The key to all this is that each boat is unique and have a different way of fly, the excellence in each race is different from others, having a web bonus on a CM ship is simply a useless function, while it would be massively useful for a blaster ship that gets up close and personal to the target |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
170
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:35:00 -
[3816] - Quote
Aimee Maken wrote:My biggest thing is that this is the most advanced boat in eve in terms of training time needed for a sub cap. And you guys are trying to harmonize them all with the same stick, regardless of the unique weapon system and racial plays they have. What I purpose is ... ... STUFF
I'd be sold on the idea of having each Marauder do very different things. I have no idea if your list is "balanced" but this concept seems to be the best as far as the fact that someone could train each hull and have a specific purpose to bring it out if they so wished.
Making them all very similar seems rather silly. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 20:36:00 -
[3817] - Quote
Aimee Maken wrote:
For the vargur, the bastion mode will not root it in place, reduce sig radius and give a fall off bonus to projectiles. Coupled with a nice base speed boost, this should emphasize the use of a mobile AC boat for PvE. It would need longer tractor range to 50 KM. It would be a speedy boat that zips around, while having some nice projection power, and staying alive by reducing incoming damage with a low sig, and thus likely to either pulse MWD or to use an AB for the speed boost. This thing wonGÇÖt be cap stable with all mods on, but should be able to dps tank + sig tank.
For the Paladin, the bastion mode will REDUCE its maximum speed, but you would get a large buff to resistance (say +30% armor with the nice T2 resists) with no penalty to RR, and a large bonus to optimal. It would become the brick that can go in and survive while staying in and projecting its power out. It would need longer tractor range to 60 KM. This is to make it the de facto up close and personal tanking and gunning boat, to emphasize the way the empire handles threats. It should be able to easily run 3x large armor rep with a cap booster, or a single one and still be cap stable with guns and no cap booster.
being able fly the paladin on my main and in a couple months the Vargur as well i love both of these ideas. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
240
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 23:17:00 -
[3818] - Quote
52 Pages now... I'm hungry for something, anything.
People have just been posting some version of the same 3-4 ideas for the past 40 pages. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
640
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 23:20:00 -
[3819] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:52 Pages now... I'm hungry for something, anything.
People have just been posting some version of the same 3-4 ideas for the past 40 pages.
Well CCP have gone back to their thinky-corner, so there's not much to do but listen to a lot of other people's even-worse ideas :P |

Xercodo
Xovoni Astronautical Manufacturing and Engineering
2555
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 23:55:00 -
[3820] - Quote
Regardless of what they do with the existing ones I also want a second set of marauders using the last unused BS hull in the spirit many other T2 classes have, two kinds of cepter, two kinds of AF and HAC, etc.
Amarr - missile Abaddon Caldari - rail Rokh Minmatar - missile Malestrom (or bounce around hulls so that it's a Typhoon) Gallente - drone Hyperion
make it happen \o/ The Drake is a Lie |
|

James Amril-Kesh
Goonswarm Federation
5779
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 23:56:00 -
[3821] - Quote
You know what would really be awesome? Take what you're trying to do with webs (which is a terrible idea because of the limited range of webs on what's supposed to be a longer-ranged platform) and instead give the Marauders a bonus to target painter strength. Target painting will give a similar damage application bonus to webs and it'll also work at a much wider variety of ranges. My Youtube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
642
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 01:13:00 -
[3822] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know what would really be awesome? Take what you're trying to do with webs (which is a terrible idea because of the limited range of webs on what's supposed to be a longer-ranged platform) and instead give the Marauders a bonus to target painter strength. Target painting will give a similar damage application bonus to webs and it'll also work at a much wider variety of ranges.
This man is right. For PvE, painters would be preferable. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 02:04:00 -
[3823] - Quote
im training up my torpedo skills for golem as i feel like the bastion modules will favor torpedos with bonus range and mjd. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
449
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 02:55:00 -
[3824] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:im training up my torpedo skills for golem as i feel like the bastion modules will favor torpedos with bonus range and mjd.
Golem used to be a torp boat till late last year when torp range got nerfed and cruise damage got buffed. Bastion is only going to make torps slightly better than they used to be. However, your torps won't be hitting until the npcs are hitting, and in a boat that big, they hit pretty hard. Hence why I preferred the 30% bastion resists over t2 resists. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
215
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 03:10:00 -
[3825] - Quote
Aimee Maken wrote:My biggest thing is that this is the most advanced boat in eve in terms of training time needed for a sub cap. And you guys are trying to harmonize them all with the same stick, regardless of the unique weapon system and racial plays they have. What I purpose is to have the goal of the marauders to be GÇ£Showing the best the race has to offer, and to shore up any weakness in that methodGÇ¥
No hull should be the "absolute best" nor should it "shore up any weaknesses" in a hull. Every hull and racial choice should have some give and take.
Overall I find all four of your concepts ridiculously over-powered. Plus I find the whole idea of a moving while deployed battleship to be just a little ridiculous and unappealing.
Plus if you want to talk about training time, Black Ops Battleships are actually worse in terms of overall training time, recommended certificates, and they force you to train a set of very specialized skills where as the prerequisites for Marauders all fall under core ship skills.
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Yup, basically you want the marauder to be able to get through/past a gate without getting blown up every time,
Bastion could do this if it's effect was to allow the MJD to work even when there was a scram on it.
In this case I would suggest that the MJD cooldown is not reduced by the marauder.
This means the marauder would have 1 get-out-of-jail-free card per gate or per mission site. A determined gang could still kill it by re-acquiring a lock with a fast ship before the the marauder warped off (you just need to watch where it's headed and get a point ship out in that direction). They would then have 3 minutes to kill it. or energy neutralise it to the point where it could not MJD again.
In this case the sensor strength should not be increased - it's a pve ship, now with niche pvp application (it can attack until jammed, and then escape - once).
That would make a gank attempt interesting and rewarding for both attackers and defender I think.
I am, in general, fundamentally opposed to anything that's trying to make something "safe enough". Either you're never going to achieve "safe enough", at least for any sort of hostile space, or you're going to end up making something that's over-powered while trying to make it "safe" in the worst common case.
In the end it all has to come down to risk vs reward and on the whole humans are risk averse, even Eve players. Sure, people go into low sec and null sec on their own but they're rarely taking what they feel to be a considerable risk. Either they can easily replace the ship they're flying or they really and truely have a plan for how not to lose it. Generally though this involves avoiding player contact, not jumping through gate-camps and hoping they don't have enough people to kill you in 9 seconds of spool up time.
Also a 3 minute cooldown about one MJD warp per 2-3 gates while traveling. We established earlier that the rough "base time" on a warp jump is 30 seconds, and even a 90 AU warp only adds another thirty seconds to that, plus about ten seconds to jump through the gate and you've got about three more gates before you can use that trick again, and if you're in null you'd better hope that no one has a drag bubble setup on the outgoing gate of the same system. |

Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 04:11:00 -
[3826] - Quote
The 60-second cycle time for Bastion is a bit too long... cut it to 15 seconds at the most to at least give Marauders a chance in PvP. Or offer different Bastion modules with different cycle times / resource usages. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
215
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 04:37:00 -
[3827] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:The 60-second cycle time for Bastion is a bit too long... cut it to 15 seconds at the most to at least give Marauders a chance in PvP. Or offer different Bastion modules with different cycle times / resource usages.
Two problems with this.
One, the Bastion Module doesn't have a resource cost, it just is. The rooting in-place is supposed to be a trade-off so shortening the cycle time would mean far less bonus. In general it shouldn't be shortened to the point where the fact that you can't move for a period of time doesn't come into your calculations on whether or not to use it.
Two, very short cycle times could cause animation problems. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:35:00 -
[3828] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know what would really be awesome? Take what you're trying to do with webs (which is a terrible idea because of the limited range of webs on what's supposed to be a longer-ranged platform) and instead give the Marauders a bonus to target painter strength. Target painting will give a similar damage application bonus to webs and it'll also work at a much wider variety of ranges. This man is right. For PvE, painters would be preferable. You need a way to kill frigs. 5 lights isn't going to cut it in higher end PvE. Hell 10 or even 15 might not cut it in 10/10 plexes with 30+ of them or C3/C4 container sites and their swarms of super elite frigs. |

raawe
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 07:25:00 -
[3829] - Quote
WoW Sensor strength 12
***edit 11-14
***looks at Vengeance's sensor str (14)  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
449
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 07:39:00 -
[3830] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know what would really be awesome? Take what you're trying to do with webs (which is a terrible idea because of the limited range of webs on what's supposed to be a longer-ranged platform) and instead give the Marauders a bonus to target painter strength. Target painting will give a similar damage application bonus to webs and it'll also work at a much wider variety of ranges. This man is right. For PvE, painters would be preferable. You need a way to kill frigs. 5 lights isn't going to cut it in higher end PvE. Hell 10 or even 15 might not cut it in 10/10 plexes with 30+ of them or C3/C4 container sites and their swarms of super elite frigs.
Ya know, I had an idea once that might just be crazy enough to work.
When in bastion mode you unlock 3 turret/launcher hard points specifically for small weapons. Bastion would give a damage and tracking bonus to those small weapons.
Some people might think this is OP, but look at it closely.
Small ships die at short range, large ships die at med/long range. How do you take one down?
Easy, get small ships out at long range orbiting out of traversal, get big ships under it tanking the small guns and out traversing the large guns.
This would change things up a bit and the big ships would have to play tackle. This would also mean that there major weakness would be heavy brawlers, with good agility. |
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
216
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 09:08:00 -
[3831] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ya know, I had an idea once that might just be crazy enough to work.
When in bastion mode you unlock 3 turret/launcher hard points specifically for small weapons. Bastion would give a damage and tracking bonus to those small weapons.
Some people might think this is OP, but look at it closely.
Small ships die at short range, large ships die at med/long range. How do you take one down?
Easy, get small ships out at long range orbiting out of traversal, get big ships under it tanking the small guns and out traversing the large guns.
This would change things up a bit and the big ships would have to play tackle. This would also mean that there major weakness would be heavy brawlers, with good agility.
Besides removing utility highs for tractor beams and salvagers this also doesn't work unless you can somehow refit while in Bastion, which would be hilariously OP. I don't even want to think about what would be required on CCP's end to have an active module add turret slots in space.
Xequecal wrote: You need a way to kill frigs. 5 lights isn't going to cut it in higher end PvE. Hell 10 or even 15 might not cut it in 10/10 plexes with 30+ of them or C3/C4 container sites and their swarms of super elite frigs.
Then fit a web or two. These are NPC frigs, they don't really try to actively speed tank you, they just burn in with a MWD and then orbit.
Plus no one said these things needed to be able to solo a 10/10 DED complex. |

chaosjj
State Enforcement Directive
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 09:23:00 -
[3832] - Quote
suddenly, this wallpaper is making sense...
http://wallpaperbackgrounds.com/Content/wallpapers/video%20game/eve%20online/102427-51245.jpg |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
510
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 10:21:00 -
[3833] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:You need a way to kill frigs. 5 lights isn't going to cut it in higher end PvE. Hell 10 or even 15 might not cut it in 10/10 plexes with 30+ of them or C3/C4 container sites and their swarms of super elite frigs. MJD is a good counter to NPC frigs in most cases, although I suppose that enemies like guristas in general can force you to focus something else than frigs first, considering that their DPS isn't really mitigated that much by range. Plus this post is irrelevant to Golem... |

Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 10:24:00 -
[3834] - Quote
the one thing I dont like about the new marauders is the generic reworking. All have the same bonuses - whats the choice? The Vargur (the one I fly) becomes a jumped up Maelstrom - just another un-minmatar lump. Peronally I love the vargur for its agility and speed, orbitting packs of rats while pummeling. Its Tempest roots shine.
Now its just a very very expensive Mael. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
245
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 10:52:00 -
[3835] - Quote
I'd really be eager to find out how many people will build their paladin into a mini-archon, adressing a fit focused on 7 large RR-modules, CPRs and local tank. Should say I don't expect them to be used largeley outside of cynofree wh-space. Or the Vargur/Golem as a shield-carrier :>
personal impressions (with explanation)
> Bastiontranformerthingy I believe there is hardly anyone who doesn't like the thought of a module being avaiable to fit, turning your tech-II battleship into another immobile ewar-immune platform, just that - (multi-ASB-bandaid) Repairamount should be considered to be worked into faster cycle times, maybe even more than 50% reduction with less capreduction, making one armor repper perform like 1.5 regarding both the output aswell as the capacitorneed. Main reasoning being the high per-cycle-amount and rather low basehp. - Give back mass! Just this time, consider something like 20x multiplier to avoid wormhole activation with activated module. The option of going into *Drift-mode* was extremely promising in my opinion atleast, being unbumpable when bastioned at 0 speed is also an essential thing. - If RR-marauder is an issue, maybe reduce max locks in bastion. If usage of an RR-marauder in the style of a not-interruptible carrier is welcomed, maybe consider giving those RR a slight rangebonus as was asked for strat-cruisers on several occasions, meaning a rangebonus of 25% to 100% or anything similiar. - What about MJD also in bastion as only means of mobility? Could justify a reduction of the defensive boni even. - If a bastioned ship cannot be ewar'ed, can they atleast be tackled? Else, dropping out of bastion would need an incredibly agile scramblebutton to apply within time. This obvioulsy strongly interacts with 'mass, or no mass'-dilemma above. --- Overall I believe this Bastionmoduletransformerthingy to be a wonderful idea as it was sketched with EWAR-immunity and application bonus, as that basically makes for a second ship using the same hull.
> Marauders themselves My biggest doubts towards the non-bastioned marauders is Sensor Strength, less as in it being an issue, but moreso it being an issue for Golem/Vargur, as shieldtanking and bonused mids make for a hard choice picking ECCM. While Kronos/Paladin are arguably okay with capinject, ECCM, MJD and a web - it will be a much tougher call for shieldtankers. - I believe that amongst all weapon systems, torps are the only ones at a straight out disadvantage due to MJD'ing out of applicationrange by a huge margin. OP sounds like missile-tracking modules for lowslots, so shouldn't be an issue. Else, Cruises everywhere \o/ - Lowslot eccm should be more effective, or should work slightly differently to be still inferior (like +x sensor srength flat, as LG grail/jackal etc.), but amount of decreased efficiency somewhat being less of a hurdle for shieldtanked marauders. - Base HP still seem a little high. Bufferstrats/HACs suffer from weak base-hp aswell, but see what plates and tech-II-resist do to their HP-pools. Would very welcome that concept of rendering the ship extremely sensitive to it's fittings, especially it's buffer to largely depend on LSEs and plates. Also to differentiate between lineships as *combat* BS with their 9000ish base, and those marauders with - say BC-base HP (+ tech-II resists) - Especially structure HP, it's all joints and junctions anyways.
--- Pretty much buff smallscale stuff, nerf fleetstuff for them. I actually do not see any issues with them being a near identical ship differing in nothing but type of weapon, kind of tank and a few slots - It's exactly what creates a balanced class, with - due to minor differences in tracking/range/dps/capacitor - greatly differing realized fittings and playstyles.
My 113 cents. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1220
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:41:00 -
[3836] - Quote
raawe wrote:WoW Sensor strength 12***edit 11-14 ***looks at Vengeance's sensor str (14) 
As long as this ship class keeps this SS silliness you can give them funky transformer stuff, police sirens or dancing spot lights, they still be relegated to very few uses, extremely fragile and easy to counter for a bunch of rookie ships, hell a single 2weeks ibis pilot can already completely take one of these out of the field or force it in to "transformer" stuff to get killed, because it will get killed.
As said before, for this ship to be worth of something for pvp and actually fit the Marauder role it needs some points to be enhanced: Sensor, mobility, utility
Sensor: no need to explain it in latin, everyone already knows what this is about
Mobility: the MJD bonus to cycle is good, if they can code showing timer on this module that would also be a nice "feature"
Utility: 2 main points to study here
-racial Ewar: we have a problem with this oen, will minmatar get webs or painters? -you guys get the thing, must be a useful Ewar module helping the ship achieve its job
-bastion module: I do'nt really like it at all, its cool for videos, might be/look cool to kill structures but for pvp with a 60sec timer+timer to get in/out of bastion module makes it not really interesting.
Option: Bubble and disruption immunity = requires commitment or spec ship with scram 2 points or focused disruption (hic)
This single point would vastly increase this ship mobility on top of MJD, giving it a SS boost would also help it make the job with no further changes needed. A 3rd rig slot would look like the cherry on top of the cake. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
202
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:15:00 -
[3837] - Quote
I'm really looking forward to these changes. I'm always looking for creative ways to run C4/C5 sites alone and I'm totally willing to fly a bling battleship around if it gets the job done.
Just a minor suggestion: why 5% capacitor capacity on the Paladin rather than a regeneration time reduction? I think swapping it with cap regen bonus would make it a little more robust against neuting NPCs without making it OP in a PvP scenario. I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.
Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever |

Dredastttarm
Zeta Consulate
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:54:00 -
[3838] - Quote
Webs are back baby, and on all of them, **** YEAH!
I approve epic webs, although they're not 90% webs, close enough. |

DoswiadczonaSuka
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:20:00 -
[3839] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
|

marVLs
406
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:26:00 -
[3840] - Quote
I want one thing from CCP: don't be afraid to buff them strongly 
They're T2 BS's ffs... they suppose to be powerfull and rule in their assumption without doubts.
I don't like this thinking "we don't want to make them more powerfull than pirate BS's"... so what's the sense skilling them and using, when everyone can get cheaper, a loooot less skill intensive and better pirate BS?
If You give them bonuses make them usefull not almost useless like so small tractor bonus especially with MJD bonus... it's just stupid. Boost their sensors like hell, give them better slots layout instead of 8th HighSlot (again look at Vindi and Kronos...)
Pirate BS's are faster, more agile, have bigger DPS, bigger drone bays, better sensors, better slots layouts etc. I'm not saying nerf pirate BS's , because they should be powerfull (hell, every BS should be powerfull), but i'm saying Marauders should be especially in PVE better in every aspect.
Some idea, want this bastion stationary thingy? So give every marauder 125mb drones bandwidth (gallente will get + drone damage bonus). And cut drones from pirate BS's. Instead of stationary maybe manuverability mode? MWD cap consumption and sig bonus combined with better tracking and NOS immunity (well maybe in some big % only). etc
But still i think marauders should get biggest raw dps, 125mb drones, better sensors and manuverability |
|

James Amril-Kesh
Goonswarm Federation
5781
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 19:58:00 -
[3841] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You know what would really be awesome? Take what you're trying to do with webs (which is a terrible idea because of the limited range of webs on what's supposed to be a longer-ranged platform) and instead give the Marauders a bonus to target painter strength. Target painting will give a similar damage application bonus to webs and it'll also work at a much wider variety of ranges. This man is right. For PvE, painters would be preferable. You need a way to kill frigs. 5 lights isn't going to cut it in higher end PvE. Hell 10 or even 15 might not cut it in 10/10 plexes with 30+ of them or C3/C4 container sites and their swarms of super elite frigs. As others have said, you can still fit a web, it just won't have that 10% per level extra effectiveness. If you really want to hit frigates up close, you can put a web and your bonused TP on them. You're not going to be doing stellar damage, but you'll hit them.
If you really want to dispatch the frigates, it's much easier to just use your MJD, bastion, and blap them at a distance. Bonused TP makes this an even more viable tactic (especially after the duration gets halved). My Youtube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:37:00 -
[3842] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Then fit a web or two. These are NPC frigs, they don't really try to actively speed tank you, they just burn in with a MWD and then orbit.
Plus no one said these things needed to be able to solo a 10/10 DED complex.
The fact that they need to shoot frigs is why I said they needed to keep the web bonus. A single 60% web will not let large guns hit NPC elite frigs.
Also if they can't solo a 10/10 or a C4, that makes them pretty damn terrible for a 1bil PvE ship considering a Tengu can already do both. |

William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 21:14:00 -
[3843] - Quote
125mb/175m3 dronebay seems like a good idea, or at the very least 50/150. Drones are very useful for popping smaller rats. |

Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers High Rollers
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 22:15:00 -
[3844] - Quote
For the time it takes to train into a Marauder versus the time into a pirate BS, the Marauder should be much better than the Pirate and navy versions.
The way I see it the Marauder should be the most powerful sub capital ship in terms of base damage and tank ability. |

James Amril-Kesh
Goonswarm Federation
5783
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 22:40:00 -
[3845] - Quote
William Darkk wrote:125mb/175m3 dronebay seems like a good idea, or at the very least 50/150. Drones are very useful for popping smaller rats. 125 MB / 175 m3 would go really, really well with the immobile bastion mode. My Youtube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 01:53:00 -
[3846] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:William Darkk wrote:125mb/175m3 dronebay seems like a good idea, or at the very least 50/150. Drones are very useful for popping smaller rats. 125 MB / 175 m3 would go really, really well with the immobile bastion mode. I would say from the way things look now, all will have either 50mb or 75mb drone bandwidth (bar the golem which in true caldari spirit will only get 25mb). The emphasis for this class will be on turrets, drones are only for those pesky close up frigates. So would not expect to see any with 125mb drone bandwidth
|

James Amril-Kesh
Goonswarm Federation
5783
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 03:16:00 -
[3847] - Quote
I wouldn't get too hung up on the way things look now, because frankly right now they look awful.
Not too enthusiastic about having both the 30% resist bonus removed from bastion and the repair module bonus removed from the ships. I really doubt giving them full T2 resists makes up for that. I'm also not happy with that latter bonus being replaced by a web strength bonus. I think the web strength is fairly useless for this ship in its intended role. It smacks right up against the MJD and the damage application bonuses. My Youtube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1523
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 05:55:00 -
[3848] - Quote
I patiently await a dev update. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

To mare
Advanced Technology
251
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 06:14:00 -
[3849] - Quote
marauder skill bonus -20% to stacking penalty factor
that would be lovely |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 06:49:00 -
[3850] - Quote
Ok just figured. At some point T3 will be nerfed (and they should be) but the problem is that this would leave us WH guys with no ships to run anomalies. Marauders could easily take that role. So when proposing anything new for marauders pls try balance it out against future T3 rebalance. Oh and no rr for class 5 anomaly is a no no... |
|

Aimee Maken
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 06:58:00 -
[3851] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Aimee Maken wrote:My biggest thing is that this is the most advanced boat in eve in terms of training time needed for a sub cap. And you guys are trying to harmonize them all with the same stick, regardless of the unique weapon system and racial plays they have. What I purpose is to have the goal of the marauders to be GÇ£Showing the best the race has to offer, and to shore up any weakness in that methodGÇ¥ No hull should be the "absolute best" nor should it "shore up any weaknesses" in a hull. Every hull and racial choice should have some give and take. Overall I find all four of your concepts ridiculously over-powered. Plus I find the whole idea of a moving while deployed battleship to be just a little ridiculous and unappealing. Plus if you want to talk about training time, Black Ops Battleships are actually worse in terms of overall training time, recommended certificates, and they force you to train a set of very specialized skills where as the prerequisites for Marauders all fall under core ship skills.
The shore up the weakness bit is only really considered when you add in the low scan res of the ship, it should never be used in pvp because of that fact and if you do, you need a lot of SEBOs and other support just because of the lumbering nature of the battleships.
For a high end pve ship, this would mean they are balanced around the pirate ships, rather than nerfing the pirates down to their level.
I personally envision the pirate ships to be like T2 ships but with a focus pvp capabilities and balance, their costs should be raised and they should not suffer from the scan res issue of the marauders. So then pirates would have better pvp, okay pve, and cost a ton (1.5-2.5 bil range). While Marauders would have excellent pve, **** pvp (SS), and cost slightly less while have a far larger skill train time.
On blops, I hope they rework the entire line. I wish for anti super use bomber, along with a super change that comps the current pilots as their nigh invincibility turns into just another tier of ship as per tiercide.
Again tho, the thing that you should take away is that they should make each marauder feel unique, and not have the class harmonized like some other T2 lines. They should feel racially matched, if not have the weakness compensated. |

Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
122
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 06:59:00 -
[3852] - Quote
I don't like things getting away from me so I don't like my web bonus being nerfed. Guess I'll just use 2 webs instead of one on my kronos now. >_> Everything else looks good. Make it like a mini dread. Perfect for gate camping and station camping. |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 09:36:00 -
[3853] - Quote
If I am counting well it will means that I will be able to be cap stable with large repairer and only 2 cap rechargers without any issues and I will have still something to spare :-)
Not sure if I am counting it well but bonus to cap recharge seems to be aproximately 33% for paladin. (did someone try to count it ?)
it would be amazing because I will be able to fit jump drive and something else and with just 4 mid slots I am really happy that there is also boost to cap recharger. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1415
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 09:39:00 -
[3854] - Quote
I can't believe that there are actually people bad enough to think these things won't be ridiculously overpowered.. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
246
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 10:23:00 -
[3855] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I can't believe that there are actually people bad enough to think these things won't be ridiculously overpowered..
*pssst, silence* Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 10:56:00 -
[3856] - Quote
I even count it and it will be "cheap" to have it nice ... so let it be ..... dont touch it :-D I like it :-))
I tried to count what suicide gank needs to do to kill me :-D and if nothing else :-D It is not worth to kill me... thats what I like :-D
1000 dps / nice range / 600 tank (1200 tank in bastion) / mjd :-D for something around 2 billions (500 milion drop in average and cost to shot me down is paroximately 350 - 700 millions based on sector :-D)
I really hope that it will stay like this ... it needs huge amount of training compared to other ships so it will be nice if it will be at least little bit better. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 11:32:00 -
[3857] - Quote
Aimee Maken wrote:The shore up the weakness bit is only really considered when you add in the low scan res of the ship, it should never be used in pvp because of that fact and if you do, you need a lot of SEBOs and other support just because of the lumbering nature of the battleships.
...? These ships don't have low scan resolutions, they all have above average scan res for battleships.
|

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 11:52:00 -
[3858] - Quote
I'm not sure why there is talk of Marauders being "Short Range Weapons" specialists. I prefer to have Tachy's on my Paladin, combined with the Micro Jump Drive. I'm working the Gallente Epic Arc right now, and the 'heavy dps" missions are very easily managed by a short hop of 100 km and BLAP with Imperial Navy Ultra-violets at 80 kms (and before you ask, yes, I get volleys of 2300-5500 at that range with them, consistently when they get into IN Gamma range...they never make it to Gleam, trust me)
Please do not force me to be choosing one gun type like some Pirate Battleships (Vindicator I'm talking about you. Nightmare you CAN put pulses on...but why?). Let's face it; the Marauder is a PVE ship. It's role is specialized in that. What moron brings tractor beams and a salvage unit to a fleet fight (on a battleship)? Come on, leave it a PVE ship. Fix blops as PVP if you need to do that.
This thread is getting completely out of hand... 191 pages? Who knew that it would be so controversial? A tech 2 ship should be specialized, not watered down to being a "little bit of this, a little bit of that".
Frankly, I'm getting a little worried that this "rebalance" is going to screw them up totally. So Marauders are a little OP for PVE..so what? They suck donkey balls in pvp. I would never think of bringing one into pvp, the ease of which you get your ass handed to you by any ewar is re-donkulous. I have "a lot" of isk, and a lot of skill time invested in my Paladin. If I want to pvp in a battleship, I will use blops or a navy faction battleship if i want to spend money. HAC's or T1 battleships if I don't. There's a reason that all the Fleet Doctrine I've seen is T1 or Navy battleships.
Here's a thought... want to get rid of OP stuff? Just eliminate Faction, Deadspace and Officer modules. Force everyone to use T2 only. That will level the playing field.
That BTW was a joke.
So just stop, you're making a mistake.
Poaster's Disclaimer; this is my opinion only. Remember opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and it generally stinks.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 11:54:00 -
[3859] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Aimee Maken wrote:The shore up the weakness bit is only really considered when you add in the low scan res of the ship, it should never be used in pvp because of that fact and if you do, you need a lot of SEBOs and other support just because of the lumbering nature of the battleships. ...? These ships don't have low scan resolutions, they all have above average scan res for battleships.
It's their sensor strength that is crap. Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Nova Satar
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
168
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:29:00 -
[3860] - Quote
just to confirm, once you've entered bastion mode, is that the part where 3 nados suicide gank you? |
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:30:00 -
[3861] - Quote
Apo Lamperouge wrote: Please do not force me to be choosing one gun type like some Pirate Battleships (Vindicator I'm talking about you. Nightmare you CAN put pulses on...but why?). Let's face it; the Marauder is a PVE ship. It's role is specialized in that. What moron brings tractor beams and a salvage unit to a fleet fight (on a battleship)? Come on, leave it a PVE ship. Fix blops as PVP if you need to do that.
I have the feeling you judge those ships from a pure pve-pov. Yeah, railvindis and tachnightmares are a *thing* in incursions or anomalies, yet they were flown a lot with various fittings. Same potentially for the most pvp-prominent marauder, the kronos. Though they are fitted sometimes rails, sometimes blasters for pve, they are near always fitted for blasters+webs+buffer to serve as a dirtcheap substitute for Vindiwebs.
The giant thing you apparently overlooked was the very generous fittings buff, which allowst them to fit a rack of heavy utility mods, i.E. pvp.
Apo Lamperouge wrote: Frankly, I'm getting a little worried that this "rebalance" is going to screw them up totally. So Marauders are a little OP for PVE..so what? They suck donkey balls in pvp. I would never think of bringing one into pvp, the ease of which you get your ass handed to you by any ewar is re-donkulous. I have "a lot" of isk, and a lot of skill time invested in my Paladin. If I want to pvp in a battleship, I will use blops or a navy faction battleship if i want to spend money. HAC's or T1 battleships if I don't. There's a reason that all the Fleet Doctrine I've seen is T1 or Navy battleships.
Most fleet doctrines are based on t1/navy cause every scrub can fly those, and they are cheap within limits. Unlike most smallscale engagements, dumping boatloads of ISK to get a few extrapercent performance isn't worth it when you're one of 200 f1-lemmings.
The complete ewar-problematic is mostly abolished by the introduction of the bastion-module. Being unable to receive RR luckily also disqualifies it for fleet usage. If you're just looking at the raw hull without the bastionmodule, you get a battleship with t2 resists and 4 extrahighs over other battleships, while suffering from (as of now) only low sensor strength.
I really do not understand how those are bound exclusively to pve. They have been in the past with their craptastic fittings and lack of HP or RR-efficiency, but apparently they are going to change that finally. Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:31:00 -
[3862] - Quote
Nova Satar wrote:just to confirm, once you've entered bastion mode, is that the part where 3 nados suicide gank you?
More like 8+ Now actively requesting any faction / new faction willing to produce these:-áhttp://eohgames.com/labs/Ships/Vanir%20Federation%20Talos-á |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:35:00 -
[3863] - Quote
Why would they waste 6+ attack BCs to suicide gank your marauder? The ship might be worth 1bil but that doesn't drop when you explode. If you don't put billions in deadspace **** on it nobody will bother. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:56:00 -
[3864] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ya know, I had an idea once that might just be crazy enough to work.
When in bastion mode you unlock 3 turret/launcher hard points specifically for small weapons. Bastion would give a damage and tracking bonus to those small weapons.
Some people might think this is OP, but look at it closely.
Small ships die at short range, large ships die at med/long range. How do you take one down?
Easy, get small ships out at long range orbiting out of traversal, get big ships under it tanking the small guns and out traversing the large guns.
This would change things up a bit and the big ships would have to play tackle. This would also mean that there major weakness would be heavy brawlers, with good agility.
I got two likes on the quoted posts, but people really need to realize that liking a comment doesn't keep it as part of the conversation... Sure, like a comment, but if you like it, you need to be talking about it, even if it's just saying "hey, i like this". It's enough to keep it as part of the conversation.
Edit: Also, what I mean by "unlock" is the turrets are offlined until you go into bastion mode. If you're one of those that wants your utility for salvage, well, you have to give up something for utility. In this case it would be these small turrets/launchers. However, when bastioned I think you should have the same bonuses as a noctis. This won't obsolete the noctis, as many people like myself feel that the noctis is still way faster if you like to salvage and loot entire rooms. |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 13:20:00 -
[3865] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Ya know, I had an idea once that might just be crazy enough to work.
When in bastion mode you unlock 3 turret/launcher hard points specifically for small weapons. Bastion would give a damage and tracking bonus to those small weapons.
Some people might think this is OP, but look at it closely.
Small ships die at short range, large ships die at med/long range. How do you take one down?
Easy, get small ships out at long range orbiting out of traversal, get big ships under it tanking the small guns and out traversing the large guns.
This would change things up a bit and the big ships would have to play tackle. This would also mean that there major weakness would be heavy brawlers, with good agility.
I got two likes on the quoted posts, but people really need to realize that liking a comment doesn't keep it as part of the conversation... Sure, like a comment, but if you like it, you need to be talking about it, even if it's just saying "hey, i like this". It's enough to keep it as part of the conversation. Edit: Also, what I mean by "unlock" is the turrets are offlined until you go into bastion mode. If you're one of those that wants your utility for salvage, well, you have to give up something for utility. In this case it would be these small turrets/launchers. However, when bastioned I think you should have the same bonuses as a noctis. This won't obsolete the noctis, as many people like myself feel that the noctis is still way faster if you like to salvage and loot entire rooms.
How do you propose to differentiate between 'small turret hardpoints' and 'large turret hardpoints'? to the best of my knowledge, there isn't nor should there be a mechanic to differentiate here. This just invites somebody to stack 7 large weapons on their marauder.
|

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 13:41:00 -
[3866] - Quote
I counted and with 86000 lowest efective HP (EM and thermal will be aproximately same ) . If I will count phased plasma it will be 89000 hp Unfortunately its hard to get it higher If I will count around 14000 per shot of tornados .... its at least 7 shots to instantly kill me. Its nothing cheap if you take in account that ship is expensive but mods cost less than 1 billion it wont be very profitable to shoot me down:-) (but can do it just for fun. But even then its not very expensive if you compare it to other ships which needs to invest much more to have same result...)
Of course there is a possibility to shot more shots in lower sec .... or use other ships. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 14:13:00 -
[3867] - Quote
Jasper Blanch wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Ya know, I had an idea once that might just be crazy enough to work.
When in bastion mode you unlock 3 turret/launcher hard points specifically for small weapons. Bastion would give a damage and tracking bonus to those small weapons.
Some people might think this is OP, but look at it closely.
Small ships die at short range, large ships die at med/long range. How do you take one down?
Easy, get small ships out at long range orbiting out of traversal, get big ships under it tanking the small guns and out traversing the large guns.
This would change things up a bit and the big ships would have to play tackle. This would also mean that there major weakness would be heavy brawlers, with good agility.
I got two likes on the quoted posts, but people really need to realize that liking a comment doesn't keep it as part of the conversation... Sure, like a comment, but if you like it, you need to be talking about it, even if it's just saying "hey, i like this". It's enough to keep it as part of the conversation. Edit: Also, what I mean by "unlock" is the turrets are offlined until you go into bastion mode. If you're one of those that wants your utility for salvage, well, you have to give up something for utility. In this case it would be these small turrets/launchers. However, when bastioned I think you should have the same bonuses as a noctis. This won't obsolete the noctis, as many people like myself feel that the noctis is still way faster if you like to salvage and loot entire rooms. How do you propose to differentiate between 'small turret hardpoints' and 'large turret hardpoints'? to the best of my knowledge, there isn't nor should there be a mechanic to differentiate here. This just invites somebody to stack 7 large weapons on their marauder.
I've thought about that being an issue as well. Firstly, if you did fit more large weapons, you wouldn't have nearly enough CPU/grid to fit all 7 and tank, damage mods, utility, and whatever else. However, if you did fit a full rack of 7 large weapons, then 3 of them wouldn't be usable outside of bastion mode, as per my suggestion. This means that you would bastion, be locked in place, with low tank, low utility, and even if you had extremely high dps, you would get pwned by a couple of t1 frigs, if even more than one.
However, I'm not entirely sure that a bad design goal. Go ahead and allow people to fit out like this. This would it give us a high sec POS basher with long range and high dps, but easily countered if you wish to defend.
Personally, I like the idea of doing just what you're suggesting. It adds a lot of spice to the marauder and they'll be be much more designs out there, instead of a one size fits all fitting design.
So, hull gives bonus to large weapons, bastion gives bonus to small weapons, tractors, and salvagers. This allows for several different fits just in the high slots alone.
However, if you don't like that possibility, then it's easy for CCP to fix it so 7 large isn't possible. Give golem 3 turret hard points and bonus to small hybrids. Vargur gets bonuses to small launchers. And someone else can figure out what to do with the Pali and Kronos. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 14:18:00 -
[3868] - Quote
Oh, and one other thing.
I'm still quite keen on my idea of balancing the resists on marauders.
So, like I said with the golem. Instead of mixed resists the would be 34em, 34therm, 35 kin, 34 exp. This is the same amount of relative points into resists and the golem currently is, only balanced.
This would be unique to marauders, fit the intent and description of marauders, and if we kept in t2 resists, would be much more balanced across the board. So people could stop complaining about fairness of resist profiles. If you did balance resists I don't know that you would need t2 resists. 2 or 3 Invulns and you're set |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 14:46:00 -
[3869] - Quote
if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
|

Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 14:48:00 -
[3870] - Quote
Apo Lamperouge wrote:A tech 2 ship should be specialized, not watered down to being a "little bit of this, a little bit of that". Absolutely, since that was supposed to be the how things were rebalanced. as CCP Ytterbium himself stated in the first devblog on rebalancing back on June 3 last year. And in this post, CCP Ytterbium insinuates that CCP does care somewhat about flavor text concerning T2 manufacturers (although he does have a disclaimer about it) and all of the marauders are made by companies that favor all out damage over anything else, indicating that the marauders should have higher damage than any other subcap ship, and in order to be balanced there would need to be sacrifices in other areas. Like not being able to apply that damage AND be mobile, or not be able to receive RR while being able to obliterate everything, which is essentially what the bastion module does.
Quite simply any suggestion that would make the ship viable in PVP would mean a nerf to tank/damage in order to not be OP. Trying to take a ship designed to be the best at PVE and make it viable in PVP is only going to make it a useless mess. |
|

Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1346
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 15:09:00 -
[3871] - Quote
Still waiting on my 'Rebalance EAS' thread CCP Rise and Fozzie.  |

Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 15:22:00 -
[3872] - Quote
Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
U dont say ! t2 resists are **** ..giving them 10% more resist to theire curent resists ..what this ships need is to be left as they are ..rep 37.5 % ..have the 10% web and boost dps a little bit more ..because lets face it ..except the current kronos that can deal 1.6k dps the others barelly deal 800 - 900 dps ..and the tank is the only thing making them acceptable ..u say ...yeah i got 900 dps but at least i got tank so u go for it ..if ccp removes the current rep bonus and doese stupid things like ..webs on golem ..they will go to **** ..check market for instance ..they announced first proposition of changes ..prices went trough the roof ..now they anounced this one ..prices droped as hell so ..what they do here is affecting the market also ..they should just introduce a new line of marauders..same hull diferent collor or "tier3" hull ..and new unique color and modify those into stupid pos shooting machines ..then no one would complain ..also ccp stop listening to guys who are posting with alts / npc corp etc ..or carebears with 2012 chars who barelly got pvp experience and theire best "pvp" encounter was in a worlds colide mission ..srsly |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 15:51:00 -
[3873] - Quote
Gargantoi wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
U dont say ! t2 resists are **** ..giving them 10% more resist to theire curent resists ..what those ships need is to be left as they are ..rep 37.5 % ..have the 10% web and boost dps a little bit more ..because lets face it ..except the current kronos that can deal 1.6k dps the others barelly deal 800 - 900 dps ..and the tank is the only thing making them acceptable ..u say ...yeah i got 900 dps but at least i got tank so u go for it ..if ccp removes the current rep bonus and doese stupid things like ..webs on golem ..they will go to **** ..check market for instance ..they announced first proposition of changes ..prices went up a lil bit ..now they anounced this one ..prices droped as hell so ..no one wants a web nerfed to 7.5% no one wants the rep bonus to be removed .. ..they should just introduce a new line of marauders..same hull diferent collor or "tier3" hull ..and new unique color and modify those into stupid pos shooting machines ..then no one would complain ..also ccp stop listening to guys who are posting with alts / npc corp etc ..or carebears with 2012 chars who barelly got pvp experience and theire best "pvp" encounter was in a worlds colide mission ..srsly
If you look up a bit at the conversation we were having about weapons and resists, you may like what you see. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4653
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 17:28:00 -
[3874] - Quote
Just as long as Bastion Mode does not end up being synonymous with Pinata Mode. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 17:29:00 -
[3875] - Quote
Gargantoi wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
U dont say ! t2 resists are **** ..giving them 10% more resist to theire curent resists ..what those ships need is to be left as they are ..rep 37.5 % ..have the 10% web and boost dps a little bit more ..because lets face it ..except the current kronos that can deal 1.6k dps the others barelly deal 800 - 900 dps ..and the tank is the only thing making them acceptable ..u say ...yeah i got 900 dps but at least i got tank so u go for it ..if ccp removes the current rep bonus and doese stupid things like ..webs on golem ..they will go to **** ..check market for instance ..they announced first proposition of changes ..prices went up a lil bit ..now they anounced this one ..prices droped as hell so ..no one wants a web nerfed to 7.5% no one wants the rep bonus to be removed .. ..they should just introduce a new line of marauders..same hull diferent collor or "tier3" hull ..and new unique color and modify those into stupid pos shooting machines ..then no one would complain ..also ccp stop listening to guys who are posting with alts / npc corp etc ..or carebears with 2012 chars who barelly got pvp experience and theire best "pvp" encounter was in a worlds colide mission ..srsly
Personally, I'm quite happy with the repair bonus on my Paladin, with a Deadspace large repper, I'm getting 1700 armor hp per cycle. Using mission specific hardeners raising my resists to the 80%+ range, that means that my repairs are more efficient; i use it less. But being the game wrecking carebear that I am, that doesn't work for the REAL players out there.  I'm kidding...no really
It's all a question of play style I suppose. I rarely use a web on the Paladin, unless I'm in an Incursion fleet. I'd rather use the Micro Jump Drive and get range. You say potato...six of one...blind in one eye...allegories ensue.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 17:43:00 -
[3876] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Apo Lamperouge wrote: Please do not force me to be choosing one gun type like some Pirate Battleships (Vindicator I'm talking about you. Nightmare you CAN put pulses on...but why?). Let's face it; the Marauder is a PVE ship. It's role is specialized in that. What moron brings tractor beams and a salvage unit to a fleet fight (on a battleship)? Come on, leave it a PVE ship. Fix blops as PVP if you need to do that.
I have the feeling you judge those ships from a pure pve-pov. Yeah, railvindis and tachnightmares are a *thing* in incursions or anomalies, yet they were flown a lot with various fittings. Same potentially for the most pvp-prominent marauder, the kronos. Though they are fitted sometimes rails, sometimes blasters for pve, they are near always fitted for blasters+webs+buffer to serve as a dirtcheap substitute for Vindiwebs. The giant thing you apparently overlooked was the very generous fittings buff, which allowst them to fit a rack of heavy utility mods, i.E. pvp. Apo Lamperouge wrote: Frankly, I'm getting a little worried that this "rebalance" is going to screw them up totally. So Marauders are a little OP for PVE..so what? They suck donkey balls in pvp. I would never think of bringing one into pvp, the ease of which you get your ass handed to you by any ewar is re-donkulous. I have "a lot" of isk, and a lot of skill time invested in my Paladin. If I want to pvp in a battleship, I will use blops or a navy faction battleship if i want to spend money. HAC's or T1 battleships if I don't. There's a reason that all the Fleet Doctrine I've seen is T1 or Navy battleships.
Most fleet doctrines are based on t1/navy cause every scrub can fly those, and they are cheap within limits. Unlike most smallscale engagements, dumping boatloads of ISK to get a few extrapercent performance isn't worth it when you're one of 200 f1-lemmings. The complete ewar-problematic is mostly abolished by the introduction of the bastion-module. Being unable to receive RR luckily also disqualifies it for fleet usage. If you're just looking at the raw hull without the bastionmodule, you get a battleship with t2 resists and 4 extrahighs over other battleships, while suffering from (as of now) only low sensor strength. I really do not understand how those are bound exclusively to pve. They have been in the past with their craptastic fittings and lack of HP or RR-efficiency, but apparently they are going to change that finally.
Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from. And i think you proved my point. Why send in big shiny ships that are expensive to replace on SRP when you can give everyone cheap ass Blasterthrons, Slowcats, or Arty Abby's? You can replace 5 of those for about the price of one Marauder (especially if you build them..yes I'm exaggerating, but you get my point).
But I find it hard to believe that you can use "dirt-cheap" and "Kronos" in the same sentence. Vindi and Kronos hulls are invariably comparably priced. It's the fittings that make them stupidly priced. The price difference right now in Jita is 100 million... unless I misunderstood your posting.
However, you are right that I do speak from a PVE standpoint. I haven't run PvP in like a year now, I don't find it that appealing unless it's big fleets. Probably yes because I suck at it. Bad.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 17:55:00 -
[3877] - Quote
A few more cents from me:
Undo the speed/navigation nerfs. It seems that was only done to push ppl to the mjd, which isn't enough justification IMO. Maybe a bonus affecting all prop mod.
Up the tractor beam bonus to compensate for the weapon range increases and stationary bastion mode. 200% ish? Would still be inferior to the noctis but significantly better.
Possibilities instead of webs: Kill mjd role bonus, give diff hauls diff prop related bonuses. Add heat reduction bonus to hull and bastion mod such that marauder V + thermal dynamics V + bastion active = no overload penalty. Dare I say retain old bonuses? Change the bastion module instead.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
217
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:38:00 -
[3878] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: - Give back mass! Just this time, consider something like 20x multiplier to avoid wormhole activation with activated module. The option of going into *Drift-mode* was extremely promising in my opinion atleast, being unbumpable when bastioned at 0 speed is also an essential thing. - If a bastioned ship cannot be ewar'ed, can they atleast be tackled? Else, dropping out of bastion would need an incredibly agile scramblebutton to apply within time. This obvioulsy strongly interacts with 'mass, or no mass'-dilemma above.
....
- Base HP still seem a little high. Bufferstrats/HACs suffer from weak base-hp aswell, but see what plates and tech-II-resist do to their HP-pools. Would very welcome that concept of rendering the ship extremely sensitive to it's fittings, especially it's buffer to largely depend on LSEs and plates. Also to differentiate between lineships as *combat* BS with their 9000ish base, and those marauders with - say BC-base HP (+ tech-II resists)
The mass was also something of a concern for bumping people, since you could get up to speed and then activate the module to hell-bump someone, a 20x mass increase would just make this worse.
I don't see how tackling a ship coming out of Bastion is much of a concern. You're going to have to get back up to speed to warp and even the MJD has a 9 second cycle time. Plus you can't dock or jump for 60 seconds after leaving the mode. Not sure what the issue here is.
Remember the flat HP increase from extenders and armor-plates is going to end up being a lot more significant on HACs and Command Ships than it is on these. Sure they can potentially get some pretty high EHP values, but not while still dealing even half decent DPS. Realistically they're not going to be doing anything that resist-bonused T1 Battleships can't already do, give or take about 20-40%.
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:I'm really looking forward to these changes. I'm always looking for creative ways to run C4/C5 sites alone and I'm totally willing to fly a bling battleship around if it gets the job done.
Just a minor suggestion: why 5% capacitor capacity on the Paladin rather than a regeneration time reduction? I think swapping it with cap regen bonus would make it a little more robust against neuting NPCs without making it OP in a PvP scenario.
These are unlikely to let you solo C5s, maybe C4s but you're going to have trouble with neuting.
Also Cap Capacity does increase your regen, it just also gives you more total capacitor.
Xequecal wrote:The fact that they need to shoot frigs is why I said they needed to keep the web bonus. A single 60% web will not let large guns hit NPC elite frigs.
Also if they can't solo a 10/10 or a C4, that makes them pretty damn terrible for a 1bil PvE ship considering a Tengu can already do both.
Then fit two webs, I'd rather have Battleships have a little trouble with NPC frigates than have it be swatting player-frigates like flies. Also you can manipulate NPC frigate traversals to get solid hits on them with just one web because they're bricks dumb.
The T3s are up for a re-balance later on and besides, the Tengu is only able to do that by speed tanking and it takes forever. They can't even break the tank on everything in some of the sites if I recall correctly. Saying that a big, bulky battleship should be able to do everything a T3 cruiser can do in PvE when it does that stuff through speed-tanking is a little silly and is going to lead to these being horribly over-powered in PvP.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I wouldn't get too hung up on the way things look now, because frankly right now they look awful.
Not too enthusiastic about having both the 30% resist bonus removed from bastion and the repair module bonus removed from the ships. I really doubt giving them full T2 resists makes up for that. I'm also not happy with that latter bonus being replaced by a web strength bonus. I think the web strength is fairly useless for this ship in its intended role. It smacks right up against the MJD and the damage application bonuses.
That's the point, the first round proposals was too tanky, the T2 resists are intended to make more people in more play-styles happy, not completely make up for the removal of both the resists bonus and the repair bonus.
Personally I'd like the repair bonus back on the hulls, but I also don't think a single Vargur should be able to tank the entire first wave of a Vanguard Incursion site, that's a bit ridiculous  |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
217
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:12:00 -
[3879] - Quote
Aimee Maken wrote:The shore up the weakness bit is only really considered when you add in the low scan res of the ship, it should never be used in pvp because of that fact and if you do, you need a lot of SEBOs and other support just because of the lumbering nature of the battleships.
For a high end pve ship, this would mean they are balanced around the pirate ships, rather than nerfing the pirates down to their level.
I personally envision the pirate ships to be like T2 ships but with a focus pvp capabilities and balance, their costs should be raised and they should not suffer from the scan res issue of the marauders. So then pirates would have better pvp, okay pve, and cost a ton (1.5-2.5 bil range). While Marauders would have excellent pve, **** pvp (SS), and cost slightly less while have a far larger skill train time.
On blops, I hope they rework the entire line. I wish for anti super use bomber, along with a super change that comps the current pilots as their nigh invincibility turns into just another tier of ship as per tiercide.
Again tho, the thing that you should take away is that they should make each marauder feel unique, and not have the class harmonized like some other T2 lines. They should feel racially matched, if not have the weakness compensated.
So, from the original ship balancing dev-blog and specifically this image the Pirate Battleships are more likely to end up as slightly above the Navy Battleships but without much specialization. Overall this probably means some of them are in for a nerf. From where the most popular of them are they seem likely to be turned into either something roughly fitting with the Attack Battleship theme or some fusion of Combat and Attack Battleships, judging from where the Navy ships went.
T2 ships on the other hand are meant to be more focused, with specialized bonuses not available to T1 and Faction ships. This means things like the Bastion Module and the MJD bonus. However it also means that they're not supposed to step all over the toes of Faction ships and that the reverse is also true. Also the cost of Pirate Battleships is mostly determined by site running in null-sec and demand, so it would be nearly impossible to see them shoot up to 2 bil per hull. Case and point, this is roughly the current production cost of a Mach hull and its more profitable to turn in your pirate LP for Ammo, Implants, or Cruiser and Frigate BPCs.
I highly doubt we're going to see Black-Ops worked into some kind of anti-capital platform. That doesn't fit with the class or the ships leading up to it and is too highly specialized for a ship that costs as much in training and ISK as a Dreadnaught anyway.
Also Tiericide refers to changing the tiers within a ship class, so no more Battleships that require BS 1 being far worse than the Battleships that require BS 3. Since there's only one Dreadnaught hull per race Tiericide doesn't apply to them. We can expect whatever changes happen to Dreadnaughts to be related heavily to whatever happens with the eventual POS and Sov rework.
Racial traits are supposed to be small bonuses, not overwhelming advantages. That just creates massive imbalance and leads to one ship being "the best" while the others sit and stagnate because that ship has a set of traits that are overall more desireable and they've been boosted to ridiculous levels. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
217
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:29:00 -
[3880] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:A few more cents from me:
Undo the speed/navigation nerfs. It seems that was only done to push ppl to the mjd, which isn't enough justification IMO. Maybe a bonus affecting all prop mod.
Up the tractor beam bonus to compensate for the weapon range increases and stationary bastion mode. 200% ish? Would still be inferior to the noctis but significantly better.
Possibilities instead of webs: Kill mjd role bonus, give diff hauls diff prop related bonuses. Add heat reduction bonus to hull and bastion mod such that marauder V + thermal dynamics V + bastion active = no overload penalty. Dare I say retain old bonuses? Change the bastion module instead.
No penalty to overheating would be horrifically OP, just no.
The nav/speed nerfs are a trade-off for the heavy tank and make the MJD bonus not over-powered.
They're not talking about making more Marauder hulls so I have no idea what you're talking about with "give different hulls different prop related bonuses". In general though speed-tanking a Battleship is impractical because you end up screwing your own traversal. If you want to kite then a one-minute MJD bonus is better than an AB or MWD bonus could ever be and still be balanced. |
|

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 21:52:00 -
[3881] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:A few more cents from me:
Undo the speed/navigation nerfs. It seems that was only done to push ppl to the mjd, which isn't enough justification IMO. Maybe a bonus affecting all prop mod.
Up the tractor beam bonus to compensate for the weapon range increases and stationary bastion mode. 200% ish? Would still be inferior to the noctis but significantly better.
Possibilities instead of webs: Kill mjd role bonus, give diff hauls diff prop related bonuses. Add heat reduction bonus to hull and bastion mod such that marauder V + thermal dynamics V + bastion active = no overload penalty. Dare I say retain old bonuses? Change the bastion module instead.
I SAY THEE NAY!!! I like the mjd role bonus...it's a good thing! Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 23:42:00 -
[3882] - Quote
Apo Lamperouge wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:A few more cents from me:
Undo the speed/navigation nerfs. It seems that was only done to push ppl to the mjd, which isn't enough justification IMO. Maybe a bonus affecting all prop mod.
Up the tractor beam bonus to compensate for the weapon range increases and stationary bastion mode. 200% ish? Would still be inferior to the noctis but significantly better.
Possibilities instead of webs: Kill mjd role bonus, give diff hauls diff prop related bonuses. Add heat reduction bonus to hull and bastion mod such that marauder V + thermal dynamics V + bastion active = no overload penalty. Dare I say retain old bonuses? Change the bastion module instead.
I SAY THEE NAY!!! I like the mjd role bonus...it's a good thing!
not necessarily opposed to it, but i definitely oppose reducing the effectiveness of other forms of prop b/c of the MJD bonus |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 00:16:00 -
[3883] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: The nav/speed nerfs are a trade-off for the heavy tank and make the MJD bonus not over-powered. ... In general though speed-tanking a Battleship is impractical because you end up screwing your own traversal. If you want to kite then a one-minute MJD bonus is better than an AB or MWD bonus could ever be and still be balanced.
First I just want to point out that you make the base speed nerf sound like it is nothing and barely useful. If this is the case, why spend the time to nerf it in the first place? but on to addressing your points.
0 movement in bastion mode is a trade off when your tank gets heavy. Some of the tanks have actually gotten lighter outside of bastion mode b/c of the rep bonuses being removed.
Also, max speed is used for more than just tanking. Marauders current role is generally PvE based, so can affect travel time from gate to gate. If in falloff (esp an autocannon vargur), speed can be used to close the distance which = more dps. Lastly, although speed tanking is impractical, you can lower an enemy's angular with speed to increase applied dps.
We do agree though that the base speed was reduced b/c of the MJD bonus. This is what I question. What does a MJD have to do with speed esp on a BS, its not like they are going to dual prop. It only hurts ppl who decide to take a prop mod other than a MJD. I dont like that they are limiting these hulls just to force the MJD. It's not necessary.
Cade Windstalker wrote: They're not talking about making more Marauder hulls so I have no idea what you're talking about with "give different hulls different prop related bonuses".
Golem 10% reduction in MJD cd, Paladin 5% reduction in cap use of prop modules, vargur 10% speed bonus to ab, etc. Grant it kinda contradicts a few of the points a made earlier, but still better than a web bonus xD
Cade Windstalker wrote: No penalty to overheating would be horrifically OP, just no.
Honestly, this is a pretty mild buff all things considered. First compare to other modules already in the game. The Siege Mod II is similar in the sense that you take a movement penalty and immune to remote support + EW. I would assume CCP believed that this is a pretty big penalty, because the not only add the 100% rep bonus, but a -50% rep duration, and a 840% damage modifier.
Now granted, subcap is a different game. I dont believe that an 840% dmg modifier nor the -50% rep duration are acceptible for a BS, but i do believe a tanking and dmg bonus are in order. The nice part about using OL as a way to implement a dmg bonus is that it wont do more dps in the short term than it is already capable of delivering, the only thing that increases is sustained dps, and while sustaining dps, you cant be remote repped or escape. Also, there is a bit of a buffer for this bonus. Currently marauders can OL about a 1:30 (give or take). This means you really arent going to benefit from it unless you have already overloaded for 1:30 + enter bastion mode or enter bastion mode for at least 2 minutes.
All things considered 15% extra autocannon dmg after a min and a half isnt that over the top considering you cant move or be remote repped. If the tanking part is your concern, the bonus from the bastion module could be changed. This would shift more tanking responsibility over to the fit b/c of OL hardeners.
|

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 00:57:00 -
[3884] - Quote
Well, I read though before making a post about this so, go me. Now let me say that my PVP experience is limited to getting podded early game, RVB and shooting flashies. My PVE experieance is more extensive in involves Frig, AF, Cruisers, HAC, T3, BS(of T1 navy and Pirate types) of all races but Amarr. I enjoy LVL 4s to fund some of my sillier alts and even a bit of wormhole fun.
With that out of the way let me express some confusion. I have been training up for the marauder for a LONG time, but luckily none of the skills I have trained are only for these ships. The first iteration would have made the training more than worth it, the second concerns me a little. I purchased a Golem out of optimism.
So here my perspective.
I would like you to leave the Marauders mostly as they are, but make three changes to the hulls:
- Tractors reach out to kill range.
- T2 resistances on the hulls.
- Sensors strength could be averaged between current and the nearest navy equivalent. That would give the Golem, for example 21. 14 Golem now + 28 CNR /2 = 21, which is still 1 point less than the standard Raven.
If you leave everything else the way that they are then those who have trained into them or that are, like myself, just a couple days away will feel like they have gotten exactly what they have paid for.
Now for the bastion model. That thing sounded cool as expletive deleted at first. What if you adjusted the bonuses to work with the marauders in a more cohesive way (my ideas are bold):
Quote:BASTION MODULE
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 62.5%Awesome Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Awesome Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%Awesome While active all minimum shield, armor and structure resistances become 30% Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. Fair Enough When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way. fair enough, good trade-off and a last man standing idea. When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated) Fair enough Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle endsFair enough Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fitFair enough Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.Awesome Skill requirements: High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Reasons for these changes
- This will make the 100% increased repair when added to the hull bonus, but not make the ships require remote repair just to operate as they will still have their 37.5% on the hull.
- The resistance portion will help to ease the slightly unfair resistance profiles that we have heard so much about. While it is not as powerful as the first iteration it will help to even out their ability to omni-tank while still keeping racial flavor and not being overpowered with the original 137.5% rep.
The MJD is cool and all, but I would hate to see it forced onto the ships at the cost of any of the rest of this. If it is just added on so that they have some sort of propulsion bonus, sweet.
If anyone thinks this is way out of line please let me know, but I feel like this is the compromise that most of the almost 200 pages here is heading towards. It lets the armor tankers keep their webs, lets ships move and rep, keeps bastion (mostly) in check, smooths out the resistance argument and still keeps most of the other ideas in tact.
Edit: Error and word choice fixing. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
218
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 02:42:00 -
[3885] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:First I just want to point out that you make the base speed nerf sound like it is nothing and barely useful. If this is the case, why spend the time to nerf it in the first place? but on to addressing your points.
0 movement in bastion mode is a trade off when your tank gets heavy. Some of the tanks have actually gotten lighter outside of bastion mode b/c of the rep bonuses being removed.
No, I'm not making this sound like it's nothing, I'm saying it's a trade-off. Eve is full of those.
Also, these are still currently the only Battleships with full T2 resists meaning they're still really tanky ships, more so than almost any other sub-cap. Also if you'll notice I'm generally against losing the rep bonuses on the hull.
chaosgrimm wrote:Also, max speed is used for more than just tanking. Marauders current role is generally PvE based, so can affect travel time from gate to gate. If in falloff (esp an autocannon vargur), speed can be used to close the distance which = more dps. Lastly, although speed tanking is impractical, you can lower an enemy's angular with speed to increase applied dps.
We do agree though that the base speed was reduced b/c of the MJD bonus. This is what I question. What does a MJD have to do with speed esp on a BS, its not like they are going to dual prop. It only hurts ppl who decide to take a prop mod other than a MJD. I dont like that they are limiting these hulls just to force the MJD. It's not necessary.
All of the things you bring up for missions can be done quite easily with an Afterburner even with the reduced speed, or in two minutes flat with two Micro-Jump-Drive jumps since no mission has gates even close to 200km apart, let along further away than that.
Also if you're kiting in PvP it's quite possible that you would dual-prop fit the hull with a MWD or AB to further adjust your range in increments smaller than 100km. The ability to jump 100km and then speed off further dictating range is really really powerful on a long ranged and very tanky ship so it makes sense that they'd want to limit this ability somewhat.
chaosgrimm wrote:Golem 10% reduction in MJD cd, Paladin 5% reduction in cap use of prop modules, vargur 10% speed bonus to ab, etc. Grant it kinda contradicts a few of the points a made earlier, but still better than a web bonus xD
Just no. One, these are supposed to be role bonuses and two every hull in a T2 class is supposed to have the same role bonus. Otherwise you're just going to end up making one over-powered. Also there's a reason prop-mod bonuses are handed out rather sparingly. Some of them are really really powerful and there are more balanced things to replace that bonus with.
chaosgrimm wrote:Honestly, this is a pretty mild buff all things considered. First compare to other modules already in the game. The Siege Mod II is similar in the sense that you take a movement penalty and immune to remote support + EW. I would assume CCP believed that this is a pretty big penalty, because the not only add the 100% rep bonus, but a -50% rep duration, and a 840% damage modifier.
Now granted, subcap is a different game. I dont believe that an 840% dmg modifier nor the -50% rep duration are acceptible for a BS, but i do believe a tanking and dmg bonus are in order. The nice part about using OL as a way to implement a dmg bonus is that it wont do more dps in the short term than it is already capable of delivering, the only thing that increases is sustained dps, and while sustaining dps, you cant be remote repped or escape. Also, there is a bit of a buffer for this bonus. Currently marauders can OL about a 1:30 (give or take). This means you really arent going to benefit from it unless you have already overloaded for 1:30 + enter bastion mode or enter bastion mode for at least 2 minutes.
All things considered 15% extra autocannon dmg after a min and a half isnt that over the top considering you cant move or be remote repped. If the tanking part is your concern, the bonus from the bastion module could be changed. This would shift more tanking responsibility over to the fit b/c of OL hardeners.
So, first, the capitals are on their way to a rebalance a well and more or less exist in their own little world of balance which only touches on sub-caps at the moment, so I dislike any comparison that requires you to make a direct comparison to a Dreadnaught in order to justify it as balanced.
Second, over-heating is not a "small bonus" it's a 15-50% buff to nearly every active module in the game. it's also meant as a trade-off that lets you make quick decisions about when and what to overheat. Just eliminating heat damage completely eliminates that aspect of PvP while being a huge buff to every module that you can over-heat which includes:
- Weapons
- Remote Repairs, ETs, Neuts, NOS, and probably some other things I'm forgetting that go in the high slots.
- Local repair and hardener modules.
- Cap Boosters
- All forms of Electronic Warfare
- Probably other things I'm forgetting (yes, I know I ignored prop mods, that was intentional)
Also it completely removes the repair cost of modules or the cost of nanite paste (this is expensive) and lets you overheat whenever you want rather than making it a careful decision which is one of the core things to learn in PvP (when to overheat and how-much).
Plus Bastion really does not need a damage buff. This just creates DPS power-creep between the T2 battleships and Pirate battleships, and severely risks turning them into "Dread-blap Junior". Just no on all counts. |

Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 04:26:00 -
[3886] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Why would they waste 6+ attack BCs to suicide gank your marauder? The ship might be worth 1bil but that doesn't drop when you explode. If you don't put billions in deadspace **** on it nobody will bother. Unless of course like in many cases they are ganking for kill mails not loot.. 6 or 8 nados for a 1 bil + kill mail?? Hmm lets see yeah, your a target for pretty much any gank gang around. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
219
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 04:41:00 -
[3887] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Unless of course like in many cases they are ganking for kill mails not loot.. 6 or 8 nados for a 1 bil + kill mail?? Hmm lets see yeah, your a target for pretty much any gank gang around.
This is... pretty much the opposite of true. Sure there are people who go around high-sec ganking to pad their killboards but they tend to choose targets that are profitable rather than just shooting anything that moves over a certain ISK value or they join one of the numerous war-dec corps around. Ganking high-sec mission runners with T2 fits doesn't tend to get you much beyond casual mockery whenever you try to show off your killboard. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 08:32:00 -
[3888] - Quote
Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase.
What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return.
|

Suzuma
Makiriemi Industries
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 09:10:00 -
[3889] - Quote
2 weeks and not a peep from a single Dev on the state of this class? |

marVLs
406
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 09:21:00 -
[3890] - Quote
Suzuma wrote:2 weeks and not a peep from a single Dev on the state of this class?
Don't hurry, give them time to bring something really good and interesting. I would rather w8 longer and get something worth it, instead of quick "pfff whatever" idea. |
|

woodall
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 09:59:00 -
[3891] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase. What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return.
I completely agree. In this state, the Paladin gets 12,500 cap with Capacitor Management lvl 5 which is pretty insane for a battleship. Although I wont argue with more capacitor if they are giving it to me, I cant help but think that with that much capacitor, the capacitor capacitor bonus would be much better applied to something like large energy tracking for instance.
I also agree that the web velocity factor bonus is completely inert. I mean, these ships are slow and not very agile, so unless you land right on top of them, you are not going to get a web off. If this was like a 15/20% bonus to web range then that would be a different matter entirely.
You then however come onto a different issue. They largely incentivise you to fit mjd's on these things as well. Add that to a scram/disrupt in any pvp environment and you are only left with 1 free mid for anything else which many people would use for a normal prop mod, but then you're stuffed if you want to use rep fits and need a cap booster. Obviously you can say "just dont fit a mwd/ab or the web" which is entirely true and with that crappy bonus to the web, i would probably remove that so i can use dual prop. This issue also affects the Kronos as well, but I do think that the Kronos and Pally should drop a high so they can get a 5th mid slot. Do deffo get back to me on anything you think that i have overlooked though.
- wood |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:13:00 -
[3892] - Quote
Now i have read all posts since the thread has started. i read fear that the marauder is getting worse. I read that pirate BS have to be on top. Some one it balanced to pvp, some to pve. That's too much.
Here my Idea:
Balance Marauder to be the best PVE boat, very expensive, very hig ehp, make them slow, give them t2 resists, give them very good damage projektion and the same dps as pirate dps. But leave some weakness on them, like the achilles heel, so it can't be overpowered in PVP.
Balance pirate BS around PVP (as now), take their ehp down, make them much faster and cheaper than a marauder.
The idea of the same dps: You have the choice! Want a slow heavy ehp brick? Fly Marauder! Want a fast platform? Then use a Pirate BS, the trade for their speed is less ehp. So no class is a jack of all trades anymore.
Both classes have their niches, the pirate BS maybe as fast as the ABC and the slow "fortresses" marauder.
|

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:28:00 -
[3893] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec [i](being investigated)
So will the weapons timer make it undesirable to use bastion mode in hi sec missions? For example i want to do the bonus room of angels extra. Warp in activate bastion mode kill everything. then have to wait 15 mins to dock up and complete the mission? Maybe this could be addressed with the promised LV4 missions revamp by allowing missions to be accepted/completed remotely?
|

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:31:00 -
[3894] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase. What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return.
I would like to remove webifier bonus ... because with jump drive and long range damage application its simply nonsense to have webifier bonus.
But I would leave cap bonus because it will give you opportunity to be fully cap stable with just 2 cap rechargers II. (thanks to new bonus to capacitator) |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:31:00 -
[3895] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Now i have read all posts since the thread has started. i read fear that the marauder is getting worse. I read that pirate BS have to be on top. Some one it balanced to pvp, some to pve. That's too much.
Here my Idea:
Balance Marauder to be the best PVE boat, very expensive, very hig ehp, make them slow, give them t2 resists, give them very good damage projektion and the same dps as pirate dps. But leave some weakness on them, like the achilles heel, so it can't be overpowered in PVP.
Balance pirate BS around PVP (as now), take their ehp down, make them much faster and cheaper than a marauder.
The idea of the same dps: You have the choice! Want a slow heavy ehp brick? Fly Marauder! Want a fast platform? Then use a Pirate BS, the trade for their speed is less ehp. So no class is a jack of all trades anymore.
Both classes have their niches, the pirate BS maybe as fast as the ABC and the slow "fortresses" marauder.
What CCP is actually trying to do is make marauders more like pirate BS (good for PvE and PvP) without giving them characteristics that make pirate BS good: dmg, speed, overall universality. This is why they fail. They introduced a couple of weird bonuses that are supposed to compensate for that, but pilots will still chose pirate BS over marauders. At the end of day pirate ships are more coherent at what they do and easier to fly. When flying marauders pilots will need to apply some strange tactics just to make use of the incoherent bonuses that they have. For PvE this may work but for pvp, where every second counts, doing strange stuff does not pay off. |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:34:00 -
[3896] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec [i](being investigated)
So will the weapons timer make it undesirable to use bastion mode in hi sec missions? For example i want to do the bonus room of angels extra. Warp in activate bastion mode kill everything. then have to wait 15 mins to dock up and complete the mission? Maybe this could be addressed with the promised LV4 missions revamp by allowing missions to be accepted/completed remotely?
This is good point ... maybe the timer will be removed after you cancel bastion mode? but this would be really stupid to stay there and do nothing because I use bastion mode. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:37:00 -
[3897] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase. What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return.
Minmatar have the worst T2 resists. It would be good for PvE, terrible for PvP.
I seriously think everyone should get kin/therm as their T2 resists. EM and exp T2 resists are horrifically underpowered as these damage types are so rare.
|

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:37:00 -
[3898] - Quote
Cassius Invictus: for PvE the new marauders will be much cheaper and much better than pirate ships.
At least Paladin will be finally nice and I am looking forward to changes. I did not care about other marauders ...
But the truth is that there are "some bonus statistics" which are useless and I really |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:43:00 -
[3899] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase. What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return. Minmatar have the worst T2 resists. It would be good for PvE, terrible for PvP. I seriously think everyone should get kin/therm as their T2 resists. EM and exp T2 resists are horrifically underpowered as these damage types are so rare.
Loki resists are stupid, but sleipnir resists are good.
What u write is also very good and would solve many issues. Unifyning T2 resists to Kin/Th would balnce tanks out, balance laser dmg (no need to improve lasers!) and many others. This would however leave the gallente underpowered as the kin/thr is their only dmg type. Sure they have massive dps but at a cost of point blank range. |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:43:00 -
[3900] - Quote
btw I would also prefere 1 more mid slots because just for with added jump drive is not enough :-( But I can probably live with that. |
|

Gosti Kahanid
Farstriders Apocalypse Now.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 11:04:00 -
[3901] - Quote
Isinero wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec [i](being investigated)
So will the weapons timer make it undesirable to use bastion mode in hi sec missions? For example i want to do the bonus room of angels extra. Warp in activate bastion mode kill everything. then have to wait 15 mins to dock up and complete the mission? Maybe this could be addressed with the promised LV4 missions revamp by allowing missions to be accepted/completed remotely? This is good point ... maybe the timer will be removed after you cancel bastion mode? but this would be really stupid to stay there and do nothing because I use bastion mode.
The weapon-timer is one Minute, not 15. Your´e confusing it with the PVP-Timer |

Cartheron Crust
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
104
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 11:20:00 -
[3902] - Quote
Perhaps just disable prop-mods when in bastion mode. 0m/s seems like a ridiculous liability for something with such little mass and EHP. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
533
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 12:19:00 -
[3903] - Quote
Watch CCP Guard and the EVE development team live on twitch.tv at 20:00 UTC on September 26, 2013, and discover details about our next free expansion coming this Winter 2013! Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Freeism Saurfang
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:04:00 -
[3904] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Want to change Paladin's 5% bonus to capacitor capacity to 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed (Like Apocalypse)
|

Freeism Saurfang
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:11:00 -
[3905] - Quote
Freeism Saurfang wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Want to change Paladin's 5% bonus to capacitor capacity to 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed (Like Apocalypse)
Also, base capacitor should get +25% bonus.
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
to
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 10000(+4375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 10 cap/s (+4) |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:38:00 -
[3906] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase. What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return. Minmatar have the worst T2 resists. It would be good for PvE, terrible for PvP. I seriously think everyone should get kin/therm as their T2 resists. EM and exp T2 resists are horrifically underpowered as these damage types are so rare.
I really think people should consider my suggestion.
My suggestion is balanced resistances on Marauders that would be unique to Marauders, and would fit their role in both pvp and pve design quite well.
Here's an example of what their resists are currently, and what they would be.
Golem Current 0 EM + 50 Exp + 47.5 Kin + 40 Therm = 137.5 Proposed 33 EM + 33 Exp + 36 Kin + 35 Therm = 137
Paladin Current 0 EM + 62.5 Exp + 47.5 Kin + 20 Therm = 130 Proposed 36 em + 30 exp + 29 kin + 35 therm = 130
Kronos Current 0 em + 50 exp + 55 kin + 30 Therm = 135 Proposed 31 em + 32 exp + 37 kin + 35 Therm = 135
Vargur 70 em + 10 exp + 25 kin + 43.125 Therm = 148.125 Proposed 35 em + 40 exp + 36 kin + 37 therm = 148
If you notice, I made the resistances slightly focused towards the mission rats of those empires.
Now, obviously these aren't set numbers that have to be taken as they are, it's just a proposal.
Whether or not you combined t2 resists with this or not wouldn't matter because it's still awesome on each ship without t2 resists.
Also, is anyone else seeing the power in the Vargur??? Best speed Smallest sig Most resist points Shield tank (great for missions) best agility damage selection Instant damage application
What else am I missing? Is it easy to say the Vargur is best in class?
Perhaps a little nerfage of the Vargur is called for. Then we can rebalance all of them.. |

marVLs
407
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:49:00 -
[3907] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Also, is anyone else seeing the power in the Vargur??? Best speed Smallest sig Most resist points Shield tank (great for missions) best agility damage selection Instant damage application
What else am I missing? Is it easy to say the Vargur is best in class?
Perhaps a little nerfage of the Vargur is called for. Then we can rebalance all of them..
It's all for one big (most important thinkg in missions) flaw: bad DPS in most scenarios, You work in falloff, often at end of it so... |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 14:03:00 -
[3908] - Quote
Gosti Kahanid wrote:The weapon-timer is one Minute, not 15. Your-¦e confusing it with the PVP-Timer
Doh. Thanks thats really excellent.
@CCP great changes here +1 from me |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 14:25:00 -
[3909] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Gosti Kahanid wrote:The weapon-timer is one Minute, not 15. Your-¦e confusing it with the PVP-Timer Doh. Thanks thats really excellent. @CCP great changes here +1 from me
I have a question though...
Is the one minute lock out timer from the time you hit bastion, or from the time you come out of bastion..
If it's when you hit it, then it doesn't matter, but if it's when you come out... that sucks, cause you won't be able to dock/jump for one minute after you finish clearing a mission....
I mean, obviously if you're shooting other players it's from the time you stop firing... but that's not the point i'm getting at. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4657
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 15:24:00 -
[3910] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Gosti Kahanid wrote:The weapon-timer is one Minute, not 15. Your-¦e confusing it with the PVP-Timer Doh. Thanks thats really excellent. @CCP great changes here +1 from me I have a question though... Is the one minute lock out timer from the time you hit bastion, or from the time you come out of bastion.. If it's when you hit it, then it doesn't matter, but if it's when you come out... that sucks, cause you won't be able to dock/jump for one minute after you finish clearing a mission.... I mean, obviously if you're shooting other players it's from the time you stop firing... but that's not the point i'm getting at. By the time you get anywhere from a mission site your time will be just about done, just like it is now. It's simply a weapons timer, the same as you activate now when you do pretty much anything. It's just counting the Bastion Module like it would a weapon.
It's simply to keep you from entering Bastion Mode outside a station or next to a gate, having an uber tank, and then shutting it down and docking/jumping immediately afterwards. Otherwise people would shoot in those positions as long as they felt wise, then stop firing (still in Bastion Mode and uber tanking) until their weapons timer ran out. It would have made station games especially more of a pain than they currently are. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

Aralez
Army Of Penguins
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:07:00 -
[3911] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
you just killed mauraders, Vargur was my favorite ship in the game now without its tanking bonus's its worthless! your creativity is gone as was shown with dust. I have little reason to start playing agian when the winter expansion comes out. think its time to just let my accounts die and spend my time else where..
|

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:13:00 -
[3912] - Quote
Aralez wrote:you just killed mauraders, Vargur was my favorite ship in the game now without its tanking bonus's its worthless! your creativity is gone as was shown with dust. I have little reason to start playing agian when the winter expansion comes out. think its time to just let my accounts die and spend my time else where..
T2 resists dude!
Also dont forget that when in bastion mode your rep amount is doubled. I think that along with the old shield rep bonus would have made the vargur a little over the top.
Then theres always a crystal set as well.
I think it will be a good ship just wait and see... |

Aralez
Army Of Penguins
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:17:00 -
[3913] - Quote
my vaurgur has 2.3k omni tank right now! double if i go into o **** mode and have to use the second asb. now with the gen implant nerf and the 7.5 boost per lvl gone i might as well start sellin my vargurs off. when youve spent the time for mauraders V thats the worst nerf ever. |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:30:00 -
[3914] - Quote
not sure if im doing this right but i think your losing a 37.5% shield rep bonus for a 100% shield rep bonus... fair enough u can only rep that much for a minute at a time but still.
was the cooldown of the bastion module mentioned in the original dev post? |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:35:00 -
[3915] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:not sure if im doing this right but i think your losing a 37.5% shield rep bonus for a 100% shield rep bonus... fair enough u can only rep that much for a minute at a time but still.
was the cooldown of the bastion module mentioned in the original dev post? I don't think there's a CD. It's pretty much about trading off mobility for another bonuses... |

Aralez
Army Of Penguins
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:35:00 -
[3916] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Aralez wrote:you just killed mauraders, Vargur was my favorite ship in the game now without its tanking bonus's its worthless! your creativity is gone as was shown with dust. I have little reason to start playing agian when the winter expansion comes out. think its time to just let my accounts die and spend my time else where..
T2 resists dude! Also dont forget that when in bastion mode your rep amount is doubled. I think that along with the old shield rep bonus would have made the vargur a little over the top. Then theres always a crystal set as well. I think it will be a good ship just wait and see...
Your prob right, and i'll have to wait till pyfa or eve fit has the stats so i can see what I could do with it , but i think people would have been happy with just the t2 resists, bastion module was an awesome idea but the amount of things the have to nerf/change to make it less op is not worth the change in my opinion. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
248
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 17:43:00 -
[3917] - Quote
Aralez wrote:my vaurgur has 2.3k omni tank right now! double if i go into o **** mode and have to use the second asb. now with the gen implant nerf and the 7.5 boost per lvl gone i might as well start sellin my vargurs off. when youve spent the time for mauraders V thats the worst nerf ever.
That's a little like a customer crying over a new edition of a car now featuring a V6 with 400hp instead of a V8 with 300hp. Dude, where the two cylinders went! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- The right corp to join if welping a 10bil fleet makes you want to welp a 20bil fleet right afterwards |

Mason Drake
SGK Inc
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 17:49:00 -
[3918] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Aralez wrote:my vaurgur has 2.3k omni tank right now! double if i go into o **** mode and have to use the second asb. now with the gen implant nerf and the 7.5 boost per lvl gone i might as well start sellin my vargurs off. when youve spent the time for mauraders V thats the worst nerf ever. That's a little like a customer crying over a new edition of a car now featuring a V6 with 400hp instead of a V8 with 300hp. Dude, where the two cylinders went!
Some people just prefer 2 more cylinders, since you get better more in relation to the horsepower with V8s than V6s. |

Nexumis
Angels and Devils Mighty.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 17:54:00 -
[3919] - Quote
"In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield."
No they wont, you are taking away the rep bonus which means to have a better tank, a player would be forced to use this bastion module. Also honestly you are making these ships biased towards pve....your making the hulls immobile in bastion mode but giving them a web bonus, this will only be realistically used in pve. Since you will be rooted in place, any ship could out run you because your immobile. Did you guys make dreadnoughts first then the siege module? or did you release the ship in conjunction with the module? When you guys made the vagabond, you exchanged the speed bonus with the rep bonus, but you gave the hull a speed buff so it could be used the same way. You should do that with marauders or dont change them at all. These ships tank fine now, they dont need more of that, but if you want people to use this bastion module i would suggest a damage buff. Put the rep bonuses back as they were and give all the hulls a bonus to webs as you did with the mjd. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 19:10:00 -
[3920] - Quote
So I've realized that hulls in EVE actually can have unique active abilities after all (like, jump drives and the like). Just saying... |
|

Lem Comrad
Lem Comrad Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 19:21:00 -
[3921] - Quote
What sens from bastion in damage? Right,no sens. If i can make missions more quickly at pirate BS,marauders still usless. More tank there,where it's not need. GIVE US MORE DPS!!!! |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 19:26:00 -
[3922] - Quote
Lem Comrad wrote:What sens from bastion in damage? Right,no sens. If i can make missions more quickly at pirate BS,marauders still usless. More tank there,where it's not need. GIVE US MORE DPS!!!! Better application = more actual DPS. More in-built tank = more mods for damage and damage projection... You spoiled shield-doer! 
Actually, scratch that. Shield ships' applied DPS still benefits from in-built tank if it is needed. Just not in PvE scenario where mid slots are abundant on most ships.
P.S. No offence meant. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 19:29:00 -
[3923] - Quote
I think people forget that in most pve, at least half the money is in the salvage. In wormholes, it's all in the salvage.
Being able to salvage at the same time as shoot surely means more in terms of isk/hr than a few hundred dps?
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 19:46:00 -
[3924] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I think people forget that in most pve, at least half the money is in the salvage. In wormholes, it's all in the salvage.
Being able to salvage at the same time as shoot surely means more in terms of isk/hr than a few hundred dps?
Naa, you can make more money burning targets down quickly with a strong bs and coming back with a noctis than you could using a marauder.
Remember, 48km tractor range isn't near as far as you can shoot with these ships. So you gotta slow boat to those wrecks. Not to mention you have no salvage bonus.
So just focus on DPS, then come back and clean with the noctis... This is even more true in WHs where you probably don't have to jump through gates to get back to your noctis. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
317
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 20:00:00 -
[3925] - Quote
Almost 200 pages, whats the record for a threadnought? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 20:04:00 -
[3926] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:I think people forget that in most pve, at least half the money is in the salvage. In wormholes, it's all in the salvage.
Being able to salvage at the same time as shoot surely means more in terms of isk/hr than a few hundred dps?
Naa, you can make more money burning targets down quickly with a strong bs and coming back with a noctis than you could using a marauder. Remember, 48km tractor range isn't near as far as you can shoot with these ships. So you gotta slow boat to those wrecks. Not to mention you have no salvage bonus. So just focus on DPS, then come back and clean with the noctis... This is even more true in WHs where you probably don't have to jump through gates to get back to your noctis.
Fair enough. I always do the noctis thing in wormholes, but largely because marauders have the wrong bonuses for the way we do sleepers. If they had T2 resists and no self rep bonus they'd be more interesting for me.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
221
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 20:32:00 -
[3927] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Now i have read all posts since the thread has started. i read fear that the marauder is getting worse. I read that pirate BS have to be on top. Some one it balanced to pvp, some to pve. That's too much.
Here my Idea:
Balance Marauder to be the best PVE boat, very expensive, very hig ehp, make them slow, give them t2 resists, give them very good damage projektion and the same dps as pirate dps. But leave some weakness on them, like the achilles heel, so it can't be overpowered in PVP.
Balance pirate BS around PVP (as now), take their ehp down, make them much faster and cheaper than a marauder.
The idea of the same dps: You have the choice! Want a slow heavy ehp brick? Fly Marauder! Want a fast platform? Then use a Pirate BS, the trade for their speed is less ehp. So no class is a jack of all trades anymore.
Both classes have their niches, the pirate BS maybe as fast as the ABC and the slow "fortresses" marauder.
You lost me at "the same DPS as Pirate Battleships". That's just going to turn into power-creep because that much DPS with T2 resists is going to be powerful no matter how slow the hull is. Their lower DPS IS a weakness, and a fairly good one for ships with good damage application and projection. Also, again, Pirate BS prices are almost entirely based on null-sec site running.
Bastion Arzi wrote:So will the weapons timer make it undesirable to use bastion mode in hi sec missions? For example i want to do the bonus room of angels extra. Warp in activate bastion mode kill everything. then have to wait 15 mins to dock up and complete the mission? Maybe this could be addressed with the promised LV4 missions revamp by allowing missions to be accepted/completed remotely?
You're thinking of an aggression timer. A weapon timer lasts for 60 seconds from the end of the action that caused it, meaning you have 60 seconds from when you exit Bastion until you can jump or dock up. If you've never run into this from shooting a rat (which causes the same timer) then you're not going to run into it with Bastion.
Cassius Invictus wrote:What CCP is actually trying to do is make marauders more like pirate BS (good for PvE and PvP) without giving them characteristics that make pirate BS good: dmg, speed, overall universality. This is why they fail. They introduced a couple of weird bonuses that are supposed to compensate for that, but pilots will still chose pirate BS over marauders. At the end of day pirate ships are more coherent at what they do and easier to fly. When flying marauders pilots will need to apply some strange tactics just to make use of the incoherent bonuses that they have. For PvE this may work but for pvp, where every second counts, doing strange stuff does not pay off.
Actually they're trying to NOT make them as good as Pirate Battleships. T2 are supposed to be focused ships, meaning better in one area but not in others. So a more general ship like a Pirate Battleship is supposed to out-perform the Marauders in some areas but not in a few as well.
The original post specifically stated "PvE with niche PvP applications" 
Xequecal wrote:Minmatar have the worst T2 resists. It would be good for PvE, terrible for PvP.
I seriously think everyone should get kin/therm as their T2 resists. EM and exp T2 resists are horrifically underpowered as these damage types are so rare.
On the flip side though it means you don't have to worry about plugging those holes in your tank and generally lets you fit one less tanking module and still have well-rounded resists. Generally you plug those holes because if you don't and the enemy finds out you haven't you're going to die rather badly.
Also "less common" is a relative thing. For missions this is mostly true, but in PvP it often depends on what sort of fleet you're fighting. If you're going up against Pulse Abaddons you're going to be glad if you've got that EM resist bonus on a Minmattar ship, ditto for Explosive/Kinetic against minmattar.
Also Minmattar get Thermal and Amarr get Kinetic, they just don't get both. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 20:43:00 -
[3928] - Quote
Cartheron Crust wrote:Perhaps just disable prop-mods when in bastion mode. 0m/s seems like a ridiculous liability for something with such little mass and EHP.
Actually these are currently looking to be pretty high EHP ships just by default and setting speed to zero isn't much of a liability if you're fighting from range anyway since at that distance speed is going to make almost no difference to your tank on a Battleship sized hull.
Joe Risalo wrote:I have a question though...
Is the one minute lock out timer from the time you hit bastion, or from the time you come out of bastion..
If it's when you hit it, then it doesn't matter, but if it's when you come out... that sucks, cause you won't be able to dock/jump for one minute after you finish clearing a mission....
I mean, obviously if you're shooting other players it's from the time you stop firing... but that's not the point i'm getting at.
Shooting anything causes this timer, so if you've never run into it after shooting rats it's highly unlikely you'll ever run into it coming out of Bastion.
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I think people forget that in most pve, at least half the money is in the salvage. In wormholes, it's all in the salvage.
Being able to salvage at the same time as shoot surely means more in terms of isk/hr than a few hundred dps?
Actually, and I was rather sad to learn this, about half the money from missions is from the LP conversion, assuming you're converting efficiently. Salvage is more like maybe 20% and you can get more Isk/Hour on one account by not salvaging in most missions.
That said being able to loot and salvage the valuable wrecks mid-mission does give you a nice boost to loot if you don't have to come back and Noctis to get most of the value out of the mission.
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Almost 200 pages, whats the record for a threadnought?
Not this. Not even close  |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1225
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 20:57:00 -
[3929] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Almost 200 pages, whats the record for a threadnought?
Not sure about exact number but Gallente real threadnaughts have often passed the barrier of 385 pages. And there were a few of those over the years. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 21:05:00 -
[3930] - Quote
After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 21:37:00 -
[3931] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:I think people forget that in most pve, at least half the money is in the salvage. In wormholes, it's all in the salvage.
Being able to salvage at the same time as shoot surely means more in terms of isk/hr than a few hundred dps?
Naa, you can make more money burning targets down quickly with a strong bs and coming back with a noctis than you could using a marauder. Remember, 48km tractor range isn't near as far as you can shoot with these ships. So you gotta slow boat to those wrecks. Not to mention you have no salvage bonus. So just focus on DPS, then come back and clean with the noctis... This is even more true in WHs where you probably don't have to jump through gates to get back to your noctis. Fair enough. I always do the noctis thing in wormholes, but largely because marauders have the wrong bonuses for the way we do sleepers. If they had T2 resists and no self rep bonus they'd be more interesting for me.
Probably, however, the suggestion that I threw out on the last page would probably fit much better than t2 resists.. Go back and give it a look |

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 21:42:00 -
[3932] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes.
So just to be clear, the golem, paladin etc will not have a bonus to rep amount on the hull. But the Bastion module will give a 100% bonus to repair amount or was I to understand that their will be no repair bonus from hull and bastion module? |

James Sunder
572 CORP
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 21:51:00 -
[3933] - Quote
The 1st iteration is not too bad. It could use a little adjusting. The downside is that the ship will not be good at all forms of PVE.
The MJD idea is good but you must be able to select any distance from 1km to 100km on the mod for it to work. Having a fixed 100km is just absurd. Just as absurd as the fact that all ships don't have a ammo bay by now.
All T2 ships should have a calibration of 600 for losing 1 rig slot. The ability to fit 2 T2 damage rigs is something I think all would like.
Also stop giving ships a bonus that could be built into the hull or a bonus that only works in certain situations like resist vs. repair amount. This way players can always have the full benefit of their hull bonuses and not just 1 or 3. Plus it will be one less thing for the Paladin pilots to complain about as they already ask for outrageous stuff. +4% Resist per level on the Paladin? Whatever...
|

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:03:00 -
[3934] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:They've changed nothing, the jump timer has always been 60 seconds from last aggressive action. The Aggression timer on the other hand is 15 minutes and is refreshed whenever you or the other person/group engage each other.
Sry you misunderstand me. I did not mean they have changed the timer. I mean i like the proposed changes to marauders from the start of this thread. |

marVLs
409
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:09:00 -
[3935] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Better application = more actual DPS. More in-built tank = more mods for damage and damage projection... You spoiled shield-doer!  Actually, scratch that. Shield ships' applied DPS still benefits from in-built tank if it is needed. Just not in PvE scenario where mid slots are abundant on most ships. P.S. No offence meant.
In theory yes, in practise no.
Where in RNI You need better application, DPS or tank? It ouperforms every old and new marauder.
Hell even rail mission vindi don't need more range or tracking, not even tank.
Where on Golem will You put more damage or application mods? (only cruise golem have sense and with it You don't even need TP, just put rigors). Why use Kronos when there's vindi with better DPS, +1mid slot and +1rig (yeah better res on marauder but vindi don't need more tank) Why use Paladin when there's Nightmare that need's nothing more to outperform it. Vargur? Yeah always good to have more TC's and range in Bastion but why use Vargur when there's RNI?
And all of them have bad sensors, are slower, and standing still will even more cut Your time effi...
Incursions? No use because no remote reps, damn even more tracking is not needed because vindis web everything and they can blap those frigates, range is useles because You need to move on sites. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:16:00 -
[3936] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it.
I think if we have to accept the existence of this change then at least yes make it work like a dreadnought properly albiet scaled down. Perhaps an increase of sig radius as well to make the decision between marauder and capital a bit more blurry? At the moment with your suggestion it would be possible to have whole fleets of these things flying around blapping the crap out of things including capitals. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

FistyMcBumBasher
Calamitous-Intent
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:31:00 -
[3937] - Quote
I really like the fact that you guys are daring to go in a new direction with Marauders. The MJD bonus is something that has not been seen before and will give them awesome mobility. Bastion mode is balanced around active tanking, which will let Marauders function as the badass pve boats they were intended to be as well as able to be gatecamp busters. The immunity to ewar is also completely awesome and is a great solution to the 1 vs. many debate.
Tech II resists will allow them to be utilized in small gangs with logi and as buffer fit machines of destruction.
Since they are going to have plenty of extra highs (3 when fitting full weapons and Bastion) in which to fit neuts and smartbombs, will a web be completely necessary for these guys? They will already require a scram to hold down, and any frigate tackling will need to pack a nosferatu or cap booster in order to resist the neuting potential. Neuts, MJD, and a bonused web are going to make these guys extremely tough to tackle and hold in a frigate, this will definitely cause interceptor pilots to start fitting more scrams. I personally feel that the web bonus is not the best one to have for Marauders, to me it feels like ya'll are pandering to the masses instead of doing something that will be fun play.
I would much rather see the web bonus replaced with something like the ability to use covert ops cynos, Allowing these guys to be repositioned quickly when an escalation is around, and giving rise to a lot of fun pvp options.
As always, keep up the good work, FistyMcBumBasher |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:33:00 -
[3938] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Xequecal wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Isinero wrote:if there will be balanced ressists it would be much much much better. But I dont think that they will introduce anything like that.
So I am happy with at least T2 ressist which I get instead of 37,5 % repair amount :-) (active tank is same, but I have also bonus to passive tanking which is nice)
Balanced T2 resists (similar to those of Sleipnir shields) would be actually the greatest fix to proposed marauders so far. Their PvE and PvP effectiveness would greatly increase. What I want is to change the Paladin cap bonus to tracking bonus. Why Kronos and Vargur who already have good tracking receive it while paladin gets (not so useless) cap bonus and (totally useless) web bonus. I can live with that web if you insist on it but give me something in return. Minmatar have the worst T2 resists. It would be good for PvE, terrible for PvP. I seriously think everyone should get kin/therm as their T2 resists. EM and exp T2 resists are horrifically underpowered as these damage types are so rare. I really think people should consider my suggestion. My suggestion is balanced resistances on Marauders that would be unique to Marauders, and would fit their role in both pvp and pve design quite well. Here's an example of what their resists are currently, and what they would be. Golem Current 0 EM + 50 Exp + 47.5 Kin + 40 Therm = 137.5 Proposed 33 EM + 33 Exp + 36 Kin + 35 Therm = 137 Paladin Current 0 EM + 62.5 Exp + 47.5 Kin + 20 Therm = 130 Proposed 36 em + 30 exp + 29 kin + 35 therm = 130 Kronos Current 0 em + 50 exp + 55 kin + 30 Therm = 135 Proposed 31 em + 32 exp + 37 kin + 35 Therm = 135 Vargur 70 em + 10 exp + 25 kin + 43.125 Therm = 148.125 Proposed 35 em + 40 exp + 36 kin + 37 therm = 148
This is a HUGE nerf for PvP and is probably a nerf for PvE too. You can't just add up the resistances. Each percent of resistance in a particular resist is worth more than the one before it. In addition, EM and Exp resists are so underpowered compared to kin/therm that increasing them in lieu of kin/therm resists results in a very underpowered ship.
The only sources of explosive damage are Minmatar T2 ammo and explosive missiles. Minmatar T2 ammo is half kinetic, AND they can swap out damage types. Explosive missiles require sacrificing a damage bonus in most cases. The resist is simply not useful.
The same goes for EM. The only sources of EM are lasers and EM missiles. The missiles have the same issue as exp missiles. Amarr is highly unpopular. There are three Caldari pilots and two Gallente pilots for every Amarr pilot, so you have to deal with EM damage far, far less than Kin or Therm.
The fact is PvP has more Kinetic damage going around than all other types combined and even beyond that there is more Thermal damage going around than EM and Exp damage combined. Having Kin/Therm as your T2 resists is a massive advantage that can't be made up by Amarr and Minmatar. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
223
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 23:34:00 -
[3939] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it.
This is just blatant power-creep. T2 ships are supposed to be specialized ships that are a bit better than others in a few situations, not god-ships, and what you're describing is definitely a god-ship.
Xequecal wrote:This is a HUGE nerf for PvP and is probably a nerf for PvE too. You can't just add up the resistances. Each percent of resistance in a particular resist is worth more than the one before it. In addition, EM and Exp resists are so underpowered compared to kin/therm that increasing them in lieu of kin/therm resists results in a very underpowered ship.
Yup, for reference every T2 ship has a 75% bonus to its primary T2 resist and a 50% bonus on its secondary resist.
Xequecal wrote:The only sources of explosive damage are Minmatar T2 ammo and explosive missiles. Minmatar T2 ammo is half kinetic, AND they can swap out damage types. Explosive missiles require sacrificing a damage bonus in most cases. The resist is simply not useful.
The same goes for EM. The only sources of EM are lasers and EM missiles. The missiles have the same issue as exp missiles. Amarr is highly unpopular. There are three Caldari pilots and two Gallente pilots for every Amarr pilot, so you have to deal with EM damage far, far less than Kin or Therm.
Actually there are very few pure Kinetic bonused ships anymore and both the Amarr and Minmattar missile ships have generic bonuses meaning both can use any type of ammo without penalty. Event he Caldari are down to relatively few generic bonused ships though their ships with a Kinetic bonus tend to have more launchers than those ships with a generic bonus. The Raven line specifically has no typed damage bonuses.
Also on the claim that there are very few Amarr pilots I point you at the Pulse-Abaddon fleet doctrine that's still used in Null.
Xequecal wrote:The fact is PvP has more Kinetic damage going around than all other types combined and even beyond that there is more Thermal damage going around than EM and Exp damage combined. Having Kin/Therm as your T2 resists is a massive advantage that can't be made up by Amarr and Minmatar.
Also, again, if you know someone's going to have a type hole you can exploit it quite easily so those bonuses are still useful, especially since they more easily let you achieve a well balanced resist profile. |

Souverainiste
Continuuum
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 23:55:00 -
[3940] - Quote
TBH I don't see why I would be buying one for 900 mills if it gets no dmg bonus. I'll just go with sniper baddon if I want range.
To me, this is useless unless it gets dmg bonuses. Like dreads, you know... |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 00:58:00 -
[3941] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it. This is just blatant power-creep. T2 ships are supposed to be specialized ships that are a bit better than others in a few situations, not god-ships, and what you're describing is definitely a god-ship. Xequecal wrote:This is a HUGE nerf for PvP and is probably a nerf for PvE too. You can't just add up the resistances. Each percent of resistance in a particular resist is worth more than the one before it. In addition, EM and Exp resists are so underpowered compared to kin/therm that increasing them in lieu of kin/therm resists results in a very underpowered ship. Yup, for reference every T2 ship has a 75% bonus to its primary T2 resist and a 50% bonus on its secondary resist. Xequecal wrote:The only sources of explosive damage are Minmatar T2 ammo and explosive missiles. Minmatar T2 ammo is half kinetic, AND they can swap out damage types. Explosive missiles require sacrificing a damage bonus in most cases. The resist is simply not useful.
The same goes for EM. The only sources of EM are lasers and EM missiles. The missiles have the same issue as exp missiles. Amarr is highly unpopular. There are three Caldari pilots and two Gallente pilots for every Amarr pilot, so you have to deal with EM damage far, far less than Kin or Therm. Actually there are very few pure Kinetic bonused ships anymore and both the Amarr and Minmattar missile ships have generic bonuses meaning both can use any type of ammo without penalty. Event he Caldari are down to relatively few generic bonused ships though their ships with a Kinetic bonus tend to have more launchers than those ships with a generic bonus. The Raven line specifically has no typed damage bonuses. Also on the claim that there are very few Amarr pilots I point you at the Pulse-Abaddon fleet doctrine that's still used in Null. Xequecal wrote:The fact is PvP has more Kinetic damage going around than all other types combined and even beyond that there is more Thermal damage going around than EM and Exp damage combined. Having Kin/Therm as your T2 resists is a massive advantage that can't be made up by Amarr and Minmatar. Also, again, if you know someone's going to have a type hole you can exploit it quite easily so those bonuses are still useful, especially since they more easily let you achieve a well balanced resist profile.
It is stationary in bastion mode. You cannot dock for 60 seconds after the mode is over. You have horrible speed and horrible sensor strength outside of Bastion. Give it more drawbacks if need be. I am just saying the module is pretty useless if it doesn't increase performance by a great deal. It locks you in place. As of now I will probably just use the CNR or a Mach, they both do more dps. You don't need much tank to clear pve sites and they are too expensive to pvp in.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 01:04:00 -
[3942] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it. I think if we have to accept the existence of this change then at least yes make it work like a dreadnought properly albiet scaled down. Perhaps an increase of sig radius as well to make the decision between marauder and capital a bit more blurry? At the moment with your suggestion it would be possible to have whole fleets of these things flying around blapping the crap out of things including capitals.
Agreed, more drawbacks are fine. Just make the mode worth the risk of being immobile and no chance of RR. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
172
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 02:01:00 -
[3943] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it.
If they are mini-dreads, would it not make more sense - ok, it actually won't cause I'm crap at this - to make the weapons "online" only and actually do 4K when in Bastion mode? In non Bastion mode, no guns for you.
If you don;t mount a Bastion module, you just have an improved Marauder, well, I'm assuming you would after the changes. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 04:01:00 -
[3944] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:After taking a break from this discussion, I have thought over how the Bastion Module should work. The original idea was sound and just needed tweaking. As marauders are basically half the isk of a dread give or take, I would propose that the bastion module was underwhelming, not overpowered. If this is going to be worth anything, Marauder damage in bastion needs to be around 3-4k dps, otherwise just bring more normal battleships or a dread. It should able to put out the most damage by far sub cap in Bastion mode. Rep bonus should work something like the Siege Module now, 100% to rep and -50% cycle time. Damage and projection should both go up. 200% damage and 50% optimal / falloff / missile velocity. Make it worth it to fit / skill or we will just fly other ships. I am completely ok with this module having fuel, as long as the marauder gets extra hold for it. This is just blatant power-creep. T2 ships are supposed to be specialized ships that are a bit better than others in a few situations, not god-ships, and what you're describing is definitely a god-ship. Xequecal wrote:This is a HUGE nerf for PvP and is probably a nerf for PvE too. You can't just add up the resistances. Each percent of resistance in a particular resist is worth more than the one before it. In addition, EM and Exp resists are so underpowered compared to kin/therm that increasing them in lieu of kin/therm resists results in a very underpowered ship. Yup, for reference every T2 ship has a 75% bonus to its primary T2 resist and a 50% bonus on its secondary resist. Xequecal wrote:The only sources of explosive damage are Minmatar T2 ammo and explosive missiles. Minmatar T2 ammo is half kinetic, AND they can swap out damage types. Explosive missiles require sacrificing a damage bonus in most cases. The resist is simply not useful.
The same goes for EM. The only sources of EM are lasers and EM missiles. The missiles have the same issue as exp missiles. Amarr is highly unpopular. There are three Caldari pilots and two Gallente pilots for every Amarr pilot, so you have to deal with EM damage far, far less than Kin or Therm. Actually there are very few pure Kinetic bonused ships anymore and both the Amarr and Minmattar missile ships have generic bonuses meaning both can use any type of ammo without penalty. Event he Caldari are down to relatively few generic bonused ships though their ships with a Kinetic bonus tend to have more launchers than those ships with a generic bonus. The Raven line specifically has no typed damage bonuses. Also on the claim that there are very few Amarr pilots I point you at the Pulse-Abaddon fleet doctrine that's still used in Null. Xequecal wrote:The fact is PvP has more Kinetic damage going around than all other types combined and even beyond that there is more Thermal damage going around than EM and Exp damage combined. Having Kin/Therm as your T2 resists is a massive advantage that can't be made up by Amarr and Minmatar. Also, again, if you know someone's going to have a type hole you can exploit it quite easily so those bonuses are still useful, especially since they more easily let you achieve a well balanced resist profile.
ok, I know Xequecal is against my proposal, but I'm not sure where you stand from your comments.. Actually, i'm not even sure you're referring to my proposal.
Ok, I can't do the math so someone else will have to do it for me. Factor my existing Golem resists : 0 EM - 50 EX - 47.5 KI - 40 TH with t2 bonus.
Now, take my proposed idea. 33 EM - 33 EX - 36 KI - 35 TH and factor them with t2 resists.
Then perhaps see what it would take to build a strong Omni-tank with both designs.
I don't know the math, nor do I care to try. |

marVLs
411
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 04:37:00 -
[3945] - Quote
Funny that marauders try to be the best in PVE but they aren't the best in most important thing for that: DPS |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 05:58:00 -
[3946] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Funny that marauders try to be the best in PVE but they aren't the best in most important thing for that: DPS
Only in theory. Ewar immunity is a great thing in few missions. A good omni tank in few others (not to metnion sleepers etc.).
To be honest what I really could use one my Paladin (my thinking before this tread even started) is:
1) +7,5 range bonus (instead of web or capacitor bonus preferably) - DONE
2) slight incerase in tractor beam range to match pulse laser range. - NOT DONE
3) better tank (YES), espacialy passive omni tank (to make use outside lvl 4 missions) - DONE, but for Paladin and Vargur actually it comes with the slight nerf (no resissts increase against racial rats but removel of rep bonus)
4) better sensor strenght for PvP - NOT DONE
5) some kind of ewar immunity against rats - DONE (Great job) but with immobile bastion that kinda has a lot of drawbacks.
As for no amarr pilots: yesterday my gang enountered fleet composed of: 5-6 absolutions, 2 legions, 3 guardians, 1 loki. So there are still all-amarr fleets . |

Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 06:50:00 -
[3947] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Unless of course like in many cases they are ganking for kill mails not loot.. 6 or 8 nados for a 1 bil + kill mail?? Hmm lets see yeah, your a target for pretty much any gank gang around. This is... pretty much the opposite of true. Sure there are people who go around high-sec ganking to pad their killboards but they tend to choose targets that are profitable rather than just shooting anything that moves over a certain ISK value or they join one of the numerous war-dec corps around. Ganking high-sec mission runners with T2 fits doesn't tend to get you much beyond casual mockery whenever you try to show off your killboard. So your saying no-one is going to fit faction mods on a ship with a hull price of around 1 bil, just so they won't get ganked??
During the 1st jita burn, a few of us got bored so went roaming mission space, the loot barely covered the cost of our ships but damn we had some fun. Didn't cover costs but had nice tears
The casual "lets go gank something shiny" attitude lives on in many, if it happens to drop enough to cover costs, even better. And by all means, if a 1 or 2 bil kill is going to get me mocked simply because it didn't drop enough loot to cover the cost of a few nados, go ahead and mock. His tears far out-way any mockery |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1885
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 06:59:00 -
[3948] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:marVLs wrote:Funny that marauders try to be the best in PVE but they aren't the best in most important thing for that: DPS Only in theory. Ewar immunity is a great thing in few missions. A good omni tank in few others (not to metnion sleepers etc.). To be honest what I really could use one my Paladin (my thinking before this tread even started) is: 1) +7,5 range bonus (instead of web or capacitor bonus preferably) - DONE 2) slight incerase in tractor beam range to match pulse laser range. - NOT DONE 3) better tank (YES), espacialy passive omni tank (to make use outside lvl 4 missions) - DONE, but for Paladin and Vargur actually it comes with the slight nerf (no resissts increase against racial rats but removel of rep bonus) 4) better sensor strenght for PvP - NOT DONE 5) some kind of ewar immunity against rats - DONE (Great job) but with immobile bastion that kinda has a lot of drawbacks. As for no amarr pilots: yesterday my gang enountered fleet composed of: 5-6 absolutions, 2 legions, 3 guardians, 1 loki. So there are still all-amarr fleets  .
Webber bonus on the Golem is a large piece of manure. It wastes the slots you need for your TP/tank and even a torp Golem (not that much of a good ship anyway) haves a range in the 30+ kilometers.
What marauders need is damage application bonus. Have said a few times and here i come again: the post-bastion marauder should be a MJD'ed snipping ship with increased short range DPS under bastion mode. That flexibility would make them worth the price tag; you're paying a couple billion and several million SP to fly that thing, so it should be worth it.
By the way, the marauders are going to be "bastioned" no matter what. That's because bastion mode it's being produced by the art team and so bastion mode is here to stay, what we're discussing (at elast the players, wonder wether CCP is still with us?) it's the use of that module.
CCP's silence is slightly unsettling at the moment. It wouldn't be unthinkable that marauder iteration was "OK'ed for production" after the second iteration and currently CCP Ytterbium & al were working on something else while PR guys start thinking what will they do as players outburst in rage once the 2nd nerfucking of maruders is released untouched in its current state... CCP haves a funny record of similar deeds. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
154
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 08:09:00 -
[3949] - Quote
I doubt I'll ever use the MJD on the marauders. I like being right in the middle of all the rats, letting them all get into tractor range. Jumping off 100km would be a pain in the ass. Not to mention the trail of wrecks you would have to deal with because everything was flying towards you.
I would also like the tractor bonuses increased.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
223
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 08:33:00 -
[3950] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:It is stationary in bastion mode. You cannot dock for 60 seconds after the mode is over. You have horrible speed and horrible sensor strength outside of Bastion. Give it more drawbacks if need be. I am just saying the module is pretty useless if it doesn't increase performance by a great deal. It locks you in place. As of now I will probably just use the CNR or a Mach, they both do more dps. You don't need much tank to clear pve sites and they are too expensive to pvp in.
Pretty awesome tank though, and if I can tank your Mach's DPS better than you can tank mine then my ship wins. DPS is not the end-all of everything in this game.
Besides, these are supposed to be niche PvP ships, not the new #1 PvP meta.
Sgt Ocker wrote:This is... pretty much the opposite of true. Sure there are people who go around high-sec ganking to pad their killboards but they tend to choose targets that are profitable rather than just shooting anything that moves over a certain ISK value or they join one of the numerous war-dec corps around. Ganking high-sec mission runners with T2 fits doesn't tend to get you much beyond casual mockery whenever you try to show off your killboard. So your saying no-one is going to fit faction mods on a ship with a hull price of around 1 bil, just so they won't get ganked??
During the 1st jita burn, a few of us got bored so went roaming mission space, the loot barely covered the cost of our ships but damn we had some fun. Didn't cover costs but had nice tears
The casual "lets go gank something shiny" attitude lives on in many, if it happens to drop enough to cover costs, even better. And by all means, if a 1 or 2 bil kill is going to get me mocked simply because it didn't drop enough loot to cover the cost of a few nados, go ahead and mock. His tears far out-way any mockery
Also, people gank mining barges all the time, where is the profit there. Ok a dessi is a lot cheaper than a nado but then so is the KM. Gankers work in a price range, profit is not always a consideration. It is usually worked out on - how many of what given ship will it take to kill this thing before concord kills us. As long as the LossMail is greater (isk wise) than ours, it will die.[/quote]
Sure, but this isn't exactly a common occurrence and you are far more likely to get your ship ganked out from under you with a T1 hull and shiny mods than you are a shiny hull and T2 mods with maybe a little faction. Plus between kill rights and standings losses most people can't afford to keep doing this stuff indefinitely.
So yeah, maybe a T2 BS hull makes you a little bit of a gank target, but if someone can put 100k EHP on a Marauder for ~800 mil then you're going to have a tough time bringing it down efficiently even with Tornadoes.
At the end of the day it's all about making yourself less of a target, since there's always the chance of someone roaming around looking for something to gank.
Joe Risalo wrote:ok, I know Xequecal is against my proposal, but I'm not sure where you stand from your comments.. Actually, i'm not even sure you're referring to my proposal.
Ok, I can't do the math so someone else will have to do it for me. Factor my existing Golem resists : 0 EM - 50 EX - 47.5 KI - 40 TH with t2 bonus.
Now, take my proposed idea. 33 EM - 33 EX - 36 KI - 35 TH and factor them with t2 resists.
Then perhaps see what it would take to build a strong Omni-tank with both designs.
I don't know the math, nor do I care to try.
Personally I'm against your proposal. The differences between shield and armor resists and between the different factions make for more interesting gameplay and I'd just as soon not see them removed.
Also your proposed resists are, just from the look of things, not balanced compared to current resists. Never mind that you actually end up with a nerf to certain resists which throws things off rather badly. Some quick calculations though say that your proposed resists are a nerf over any of the current T2 resists in terms of total % increase and therefore total EHP.
m3talc0re X wrote:I doubt I'll ever use the MJD on the marauders. I like being right in the middle of all the rats, letting them all get into tractor range. Jumping off 100km would be a pain in the ass. Not to mention the trail of wrecks you would have to deal with because everything was flying towards you.
I would also like the tractor bonuses increased.
There's always the option of MJDing INTO the rats, just saying. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
365
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 10:01:00 -
[3951] - Quote
In the light of this thread I have tried some missions with an MJD and/or MWD fitted (in the past I often didn't fit a prop mod at all). On balance, the MWD is a great deal more useful for these reasons. 1. You are never in a position of having to travel 100km in a mission site. 2. An MWD will get you to a mid-range (say < 70km) position much faster than an MJD triangle. 3. It gives the ability to dictate range to rats precisely, maximising outgoing DPS while minimising incoming damage.
I would say that an MJD bonus on a marauder is un-necessary and could be more usefully replaced with something else (base speed, salvage chance, tractor beam range for example...)
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 10:08:00 -
[3952] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:ok, I know Xequecal is against my proposal, but I'm not sure where you stand from your comments.. Actually, i'm not even sure you're referring to my proposal.
Ok, I can't do the math so someone else will have to do it for me. Factor my existing Golem resists : 0 EM - 50 EX - 47.5 KI - 40 TH with t2 bonus.
Now, take my proposed idea. 33 EM - 33 EX - 36 KI - 35 TH and factor them with t2 resists.
Then perhaps see what it would take to build a strong Omni-tank with both designs.
I don't know the math, nor do I care to try. Personally I'm against your proposal. The differences between shield and armor resists and between the different factions make for more interesting gameplay and I'd just as soon not see them removed. Also your proposed resists are, just from the look of things, not balanced compared to current resists. Never mind that you actually end up with a nerf to certain resists which throws things off rather badly. Some quick calculations though say that your proposed resists are a nerf over any of the current T2 resists in terms of total % increase and therefore total EHP.
True. This is why the base omni resists should be higher. Sleipnir shields resists profile: EM 62,5/ Exp 50 / Kin 40% / Th 50. This what should be implemented on maraduers. Overopowered? Then reduce active tank to 50-75%. This is the crown jewel of the sub-cap ships. Give it something to shine with. Better and more balanced resists make those ships more potent at lvl4, incursions, wh sleepers, pvp. And make everyone happy. |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 10:19:00 -
[3953] - Quote
+1 for increasing tractor beam range to match weapons range for the ships. I guess we could activate bastion mode to do so though if u lose target lock when the bastion module deactivates it will be srsly annoying. Might as well just increase the tractor beam range. |

Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 11:28:00 -
[3954] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:+1 for increasing tractor beam range to match weapons range for the ships. I guess we could activate bastion mode to do so though if u lose target lock when the bastion module deactivates it will be srsly annoying. Might as well just increase the tractor beam range. Simliar to Orca Role bonuses; maybe 75% range, 50% velocity, just to help pick up the wrecks spread out due to using MJD. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 13:16:00 -
[3955] - Quote
Personally, if I was going to design the Marauders, I'd stick with CCPs current design (T2 resists, 100% rep bonus on bastion, no resists on bastion) and give each a unique racial-themed ability designed mostly for PvE but having a niche use in PvP.
Paladin - Same role bonus and slot layout. 5% laser damage, 7.5% laser tracking, 7.5% laser optimal range, 20% energy vampire (not neutralizer) transfer amount and range per level. In PvE, that means you can essentially mount +25 cap/sec rechargers in your highslots, as rats can be infinitely nossed. That frees up all your slots for damage/tracking/tank mods. Also, since it's nos only, it's not overpowered in PvP like neuts would be, but still has a niche use, like draining capitals.
Kronos - Make a drone boat out of this, because let's face it, hybrid guns suck for PvE, especially on an immobile platform like these. You can't select damage type, blasters have no range, and railguns have no damage. So, same slot layout as now, but no turret or launcher hardpoints. Instead, replace the current role bonus with one that reduces the fitting of Drone Control Units by enough that the ship can fit them. 10% drone hp/damage, 7.5% drone range, 7.5% drone speed/tracking, +1 drone control unit per level. The ship has plenty of high slots left over to fit remote reps to RR sentry drones to maintain aggro if rat aggro on drones is a problem. Also has a niche use in a sentry drone PvP doctrine. In exchange for flying a 1bil hull, you can bring 2 players' worth of sentries. Probably not worth it, but could be.
Vargur - This ship would get the web bonus because it's thematically appropriate for Minmatar. Same role bonus/slot/turret layout. 5% RoF, 7.5% projectile tracking, 10% projectile falloff, 10% web strength per level. Give it more drone bandwidth than Paladin/Golem because autocannons have low dps.
Golem - I'm not sure about this one. I originally thought that a damage and range bonus for smartbombs would be great, say 20%/level, but realized that would make the ship useless in empire. Caldari doesn't really have any niches other than "missiles are gud" that are adaptable to PvE and wouldn't be broken overpowered in PvP. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 13:34:00 -
[3956] - Quote
As a Marauder (particularly a Vargur) pilot for a looong loong time, I don't feel comfortable with the changes too much. However, mini-dread is an interesting thing I must admit...
1- Reduced drone bays. Why? So, I'm in a mission, trying to destroy one battleship and a frigate. Frigate scrambled me, I destroyed the BS, and then? Oh 7km orbitting frigate... Doh! Where are my drones? Oh my SALVAGE DRONES! Aahhhhh, endless loop of a scrambled marauder?
2- Really doesn't care about MJD timer or whatsoever... I would, if I had a massive dronebay with bonuses. That's only a pvp oriented change.
3- Full T2 resistance is good (Actually it should've been there ages ago). But don't think that I didn't see the removal of the shield boost bonus on Vargur. I don't know if it compansates...
4- "Marauder" as a role, should be a "fast" ship. Making its mass bigger, making its ass bigger, or even worse, making it slow won't fit its role. "Marauder". Read it loud and think.
I don't know why I am so upset, but It's not like I don't like changes, I like them, unless some of them smells "balance" issues. Especially trying to compansate balance issues those creating holes that are role-against and meaning-against.
My ship needs two stuff: Some speed and some salvage oriented bonus (tractor beam range, to be more specific). |

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Tormented of Destiny The Kadeshi
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 13:58:00 -
[3957] - Quote
the biggest problem with this revamp proposal is the disparity between superior damage projection (even with short range weapons) and the bonus for a standard ranged web.
either
i mjd into enemies tackle and web all the things (GOOD LUCK WITH THE LOW RESOLUTION) go into bastion and play pitbull untill my friends arive
or i try to make use of the superior dmg projection.
just feels like a concept with a gigantic crack in its core. it may make sense for the kronos because of blaster-obliteration, but giving all marauders the same thing tastes kinda stale.
imho, marauders should be the kind of ship you want to annoy people in their own home and bail quickly when the **** hits the fan. the mjd goes in that direction, but mobility nerv and bastion mode do not fit in this image. maybe use the bastion mode for a third kind of t2 battleship (former tier3 hulls) and focus marauders more on the pillaging way of life.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 14:21:00 -
[3958] - Quote
If you read my previous post (some posts up), I am here to help you CCP.
This is directly taken from merriam-webster: MARAUD: to roam about and raid in search of plunder. MARAUDER: somebody who is "marauding"
First Known Use: 1711
So, congrats to you guys! You made something that have been raiding (and for this, must be fast) for last 3 centuries into a stationary object. Or slow object if not stationary. Good work! I can maraud with this stationary object FASTER THAN EVER! YES! |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 14:34:00 -
[3959] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:If you read my previous post (some posts up), I am here to help you CCP.
This is directly taken from merriam-webster: MARAUD: to roam about and raid in search of plunder. MARAUDER: somebody who is "marauding"
First Known Use: 1711
So, congrats to you guys! You made something that have been raiding (and for this, must be fast) for last 3 centuries into a stationary object. Or slow object if not stationary. Good work! I can maraud with this stationary object FASTER THAN EVER! YES!
Nothing about marauding suggests speed. As a matter of fact, it more suggests brute force. It could also suggest the ability to take a bit and keep on coming.
What I'm saying is, there is nothing in the definition that suggests speed.
I could take a large battalion of heavily armored knights, with trebuchets and battering rams, moving slowly across the plains to tear down a castle and we would still be considered marauders if we are there to loot and plunder.
This is the case in Eve, and on live, refers specifically to marauding npcs. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 14:43:00 -
[3960] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=Shivanthar] Nothing about marauding suggests speed. As a matter of fact, it more suggests brute force. It could also suggest the ability to take a bit and keep on coming.
What I'm saying is, there is nothing in the definition that suggests speed.
I could take a large battalion of heavily armored knights, with trebuchets and battering rams, moving slowly across the plains to tear down a castle and we would still be considered marauders if we are there to loot and plunder.
This is the case in Eve, and on live, refers specifically to marauding npcs.
My friend, you're mixing burglary with marauding.
A marauder is powerful, yet it uses its speed over power. It is fast, rushing onto you, takes what it wants and goes away.
Look into youtube some marauding videos, then let's talk again. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 15:20:00 -
[3961] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=Shivanthar] Nothing about marauding suggests speed. As a matter of fact, it more suggests brute force. It could also suggest the ability to take a bit and keep on coming.
What I'm saying is, there is nothing in the definition that suggests speed.
I could take a large battalion of heavily armored knights, with trebuchets and battering rams, moving slowly across the plains to tear down a castle and we would still be considered marauders if we are there to loot and plunder.
This is the case in Eve, and on live, refers specifically to marauding npcs. My friend, you're mixing burglary with marauding. A marauder is powerful, yet it uses its speed over power. It is fast, rushing onto you, takes what it wants and goes away. Look into youtube for some marauding videos, then let's talk again. Edit: How many stationary livings can you give as an example for a marauder? My point is different.
Just like a trebuchet, it is only immobile for a short period of time.
However, it can be packed up and moved with relative ease. Also, YouTube does not a good example make.
Telling me to look at YouTube for what a marauder does is like telling me to touch a turned on stove to feel the surface of the sun. Your belief of what a marauder is, is based solely on what you have seen on TV and (of course) YouTube. Take the definition for what it is. It's a broad spectrum. Your understanding is a narrow example... Now, your example is probably the most common use of marauders, but marauding isn't limited to just your example.
|

Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 15:37:00 -
[3962] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Personally, if I was going to design the Marauders, I'd stick with CCPs current design (T2 resists, 100% rep bonus on bastion, no resists on bastion).
Just a question on rep bonuses and resists (I'm not real good with math so may need some help)
Running a shield tank with 2 T2 X large repper, T2 Boost Amplifier, EM ward and invul, 2 T2 extender rigs (for base EHP)
Golem in current state has base shield of 14,760HP with T2 extender rigs ( my skills), 2 extra large reppers un-bonused rep at 1380HP per 5s add a T2 Boost amp they rep 1,876HP per 5s. Now add 100% rep bonus for bastion mode, you are repping say 15k shield (with rigs) at 18,760 per 5s.
Would it not be better to keep resists and lower boost amount to 50%. You have more overall tank to rep but are not repping it in 1 cycle.
|

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 15:43:00 -
[3963] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:My friend, you're mixing burglary with marauding.
A marauder is powerful, yet it uses its speed over power. It is fast, rushing onto you, takes what it wants and goes away.
Look into youtube for some marauding videos, then let's talk again.
Edit: How many stationary livings can you give as an example for a marauder? My point is different.
I suggest you look up the definition of marauder using google....apparently to maraud is to rove and raid in search of plunder. no mention of speed there nor strength either. however a raid is defined as
1. A surprise attack by a small armed force. 2. A sudden forcible entry into a place by police: a raid on a gambling den. 3. An entrance into another's territory for the purpose of seizing goods or valuables. 4. A predatory operation mounted against a competitor, especially an attempt to lure away the personnel or membership of a competing organization. 5. An attempt to seize control of a company, as by acquiring a majority of its stock. 6. An attempt by speculators to drive stock prices down by coordinated selling.
and to rove is
To wander about at random, especially over a wide area; roam. v.tr. To roam or wander around, over, or through. See Synonyms at wander. n. An act of wandering about, over, around, or through.
All in all a marauder is probably defined as something that wanders the land using a show of force to get what it needs/wants.
I think with the mjd cd reduction there will be plenty of 'random' hopping around the battlefield and with bastion mode there will be plenty of force behind our attacks
funny how many people are complaining at ccp to check the definition of a marauder. Did you do this yourself before you posted or just trolling?
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:05:00 -
[3964] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Shivanthar wrote:My friend, you're mixing burglary with marauding.
A marauder is powerful, yet it uses its speed over power. It is fast, rushing onto you, takes what it wants and goes away.
Look into youtube for some marauding videos, then let's talk again.
Edit: How many stationary livings can you give as an example for a marauder? My point is different. I suggest you look up the definition of marauder using google....apparently to maraud is to rove and raid in search of plunder. no mention of speed there nor strength either. however a raid is defined as 1. A surprise attack by a small armed force. 2. A sudden forcible entry into a place by police: a raid on a gambling den. 3. An entrance into another's territory for the purpose of seizing goods or valuables. 4. A predatory operation mounted against a competitor, especially an attempt to lure away the personnel or membership of a competing organization. 5. An attempt to seize control of a company, as by acquiring a majority of its stock. 6. An attempt by speculators to drive stock prices down by coordinated selling. and to rove is To wander about at random, especially over a wide area; roam. v.tr. To roam or wander around, over, or through. See Synonyms at wander. n. An act of wandering about, over, around, or through. All in all a marauder is probably defined as something that wanders the land using a show of force to get what it needs/wants. I think with the mjd cd reduction there will be plenty of 'random' hopping around the battlefield and with bastion mode there will be plenty of force behind our attacks funny how many people are complaining at ccp to check the definition of a marauder. Did you do this yourself before you posted or just trolling? Thank you for assisting with clearing that up.
Now, what your post does bring to mind is a suggestion that I had. Leave marauders as they are... Well, except for the needed buffs to make them good at what they were originally designed for.
Now, create a new t2 class from tier 3 bss. Class name... Raiders.. Designed as high speed, high precision ships. No range bonuses. Not as much dps as short range marauders, but more effective dps and bonuses to webs or whatever else.... They are the fastest of bs hulls, most agile, and have bonuses to mwd and jump drive fuel consumption... A really good bonus to jump drive at that.
A crew of 5-10 of these can cause enough disruption to draw the attention of whomever is being attacked. Forcing them to draw units away from the intended target, only to arrive at an empty system.
This give all the pvp'ers in this thread a ship to make them happy, while leaving marauders as they were intended. Both ships would have focus, and be niche in certain situations.
The raiders wouldn't have that great of a tank, but would make up for it in high mobility. |

Nexumis
Angels and Devils Mighty.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 17:14:00 -
[3965] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:[quote=TheFace Asano]It is stationary in bastion mode. You cannot dock for 60 seconds after the mode is over. You have horrible speed and horrible sensor strength outside of Bastion. Give it more drawbacks if need be. I am just saying the module is pretty useless if it doesn't increase performance by a great deal. It locks you in place. As of now I will probably just use the CNR or a Mach, they both do more dps. You don't need much tank to clear pve sites and they are too expensive to pvp in.
Pretty awesome tank though, and if I can tank your Mach's DPS better than you can tank mine then my ship wins. DPS is not the end-all of everything in this game.
Um i think the guy meant enough tank to run mission, anoms, and plexs. But from a pvp perspective against a mach....no just because you can tank the machs dps doesnt mean you win, mach can always leave the fight due to bastion module rooting you in place lol. The reason i can see why ccp WILL NOT increase the dps is because they dont want people to bring more isk into the game than we currently are making because increased dps means faster missions, and more isk per hour. And then null sec anom/ratters would be making less isk then a effecient mission runner even though now i believe that is the case. EVE needs a major isk sink before ccp starts making mission, complexs, anoms more profitable then they are now. And just to prove you wrong, dps is the biggest factor with a even balance of range. As in ill still use a machariel after the bastion module, because i will still overall run missions faster, considering im just grinding for lp/bounty, no salvage but hey i can just contract those bookmarks out to a salvaging corp and make some isk with that as well : ).
I personally like the guys idea of giving the Kronos drone bonuses and 10 drones : ) who wouldnt want that? 1500 dps with a optimal of 80km and excellent tracking??? plus it would play well with the bastion module, sit still and launch sentries : ) I actually think ccp should make the marauders into mini carriers but not able to use fighters.
Ok but back to the main subject, this bastion module will not encourage players (smart players) to go break up camps in null/low sec, since you will be rooted in place, a seiged moros will make quick work of you no matter how good your tank, and no battleship can have enough ehp to buffer against a dread blapping them. They wont need that webbing loki anymore : ). And with that said i think the only way ccp will do a damage increase on the marauders utilizing the bastion module would be if the module could only be activated outside of empire space like null/low sec. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
241
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 17:59:00 -
[3966] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:In the light of this thread I have tried some missions with an MJD and/or MWD fitted (in the past I often didn't fit a prop mod at all). On balance, the MWD is a great deal more useful for these reasons. 1. You are never in a position of having to travel 100km in a mission site. 2. An MWD will get you to a mid-range (say < 70km) position much faster than an MJD triangle. 3. It gives the ability to dictate range to rats precisely, maximising outgoing DPS while minimising incoming damage.
I would say that an MJD bonus on a marauder is un-necessary and could be more usefully replaced with something else (base speed, salvage chance, tractor beam range for example...)
I've leaned towards opposition to the MJD for missions as well.
Increase fittings to accommodate MWD fitting (which wasn't feasible when these ships were released because "deadspace.") |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:51:00 -
[3967] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:It is stationary in bastion mode. You cannot dock for 60 seconds after the mode is over. You have horrible speed and horrible sensor strength outside of Bastion. Give it more drawbacks if need be. I am just saying the module is pretty useless if it doesn't increase performance by a great deal. It locks you in place. As of now I will probably just use the CNR or a Mach, they both do more dps. You don't need much tank to clear pve sites and they are too expensive to pvp in.
Pretty awesome tank though, and if I can tank your Mach's DPS better than you can tank mine then my ship wins. DPS is not the end-all of everything in this game.
How often is this going to be 1v1? The local tank won't mean much when the ship is completely neuted and can't receive RR. Dual XLASB fits are going to be harder to crack but not impossible. PVP is rarely fought evenly in this game so you can't
In PVE you barely need a tank once your dps is high enough. When your energy skills are high enough even cap boosters start becoming less necessary as well (or cap re-chargers). All the battleships dps cap at around 1 -1.2k (minus the Gallente ships). Your not going to get more performance out of tank at this point, your performance is limited by DPS. I can't personally get better isk / hour than in a cruise CNR with Fury / Precisions. 1x Rigor rig and a single TP on a BS and your pretty much maxed on applied damage. A second TP only helps with Frigs / Cruisers, and then its really not a big difference. The Golem is not going to do more damage than the CNR within either of these proposals without using torps and increasing rigor rigs and using multiple tps. There is no Pirate ship that will do more dps either, unlike the Mach within the Minmatar lines Tempest Fleet and Maelstrom. Most of the other BS in Faction and Pirate can field 3-5 Sentry drones, which will increase damage over the currently proposed Marauders because of their direct lack of BS sized drone bays. I really don't personally like drones, so make the racial weapon system higher damage than the rest of the BS while keeping drone damage low or utility based and keeping a focused difference in what the ship is. They should be the gunships (or missile) of sub-cap ships, owning damage, application and projection, and let the faction / pirate ships be faster and more drones / options for fitting / better buffer setups.
I don't know what direction CCP is going take past this, but I bet they are testing both on the internal servers and maybe a few other ideas. Maybe there is something else going on with the winter expansion that these marauders mesh well with we don't know about. Maybe we will find out next week. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 19:01:00 -
[3968] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote: funny how many people are complaining at ccp to check the definition of a marauder. Did you do this yourself before you posted or just trolling?
Trying to nullify my point won't affect anyone in a good manner. You clearly don't see my point in this.
Want a raider ship that can become stationary 100km away? Go ahead with dominix and sentry drones already. Same barn, different color.
Want to snipe in a stationary Marauder? How unique it is... *Claps* There is a maelstrom for that, put 8x1400, mjd away, done.
What I simply proposed is, when changed, it is much unique for a marauder to be able to go faster. There is no BS for this, as far as I know. A group of Marauders with this bonus will become *much* unique than any other thing. People really want stationary sniper as a T2 unique role? *Sigh*
Well, I've been using marauders for missioning. I also have Typhoon fleet issue where I can put some sentries, mjd away and do my mission. What will be the unique difference between these two? Let me tell you, since my TFI is AT, I can easly fit it with a mwd or AB, where I can salvage faster than a marauder (supported with salvage drones).
Still anyone couldn't see my point? |

Musca Sklir
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 19:52:00 -
[3969] - Quote
i would find if neat if the bastion module was designed to absorb heat and would thus allow you to perma overheat. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 20:38:00 -
[3970] - Quote
Musca Sklir wrote:i would find if neat if the bastion module was designed to absorb heat and would thus allow you to perma overheat.
how about bastion modules when turn on will repair any damaged modules and drones after the 1min cycle is over.
while bastion module is cycliing,
ship repairs 50% more to shield and armor does 20% less damage cannot overheat ewar immune cannot move
|
|

Maataak
nul-li-fy Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 20:53:00 -
[3971] - Quote
The only thing that concerns me with any change in ship ability, Is whether or not it can still be used as it was before it was "rebalanced." To have spent 1.5bil+ on a ship that is central to my gameplay, and then one day it can no longer be used as such is at the very least frustrating.
The proposed changes sound interesting as long as they don't require me to radically change my style of play, or drop another 1.5bil on a ship that will do what my Maurader used to do. |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 21:34:00 -
[3972] - Quote
Maataak wrote:The only thing that concerns me with any change in ship ability, Is whether or not it can still be used as it was before it was "rebalanced." To have spent 1.5bil+ on a ship that is central to my gameplay, and then one day it can no longer be used as such is at the very least frustrating.
(cough) sentry ratting in Super Caps (cough)
Didn't work out well for the Super Cap pilots so it doesn't mean CCP will make it work well for mission running. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but CCP is responsible for looking at the big picture.
As players we tend to want what's best for us, but I'm sure all Marauder pilots can agree, we spent WAY too much time training to get into a Marauder so CCP needs to be careful about their final iteration for this re-balance. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
452
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 21:52:00 -
[3973] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:Maataak wrote:The only thing that concerns me with any change in ship ability, Is whether or not it can still be used as it was before it was "rebalanced." To have spent 1.5bil+ on a ship that is central to my gameplay, and then one day it can no longer be used as such is at the very least frustrating. (cough) sentry ratting in Super Caps (cough) Didn't work out well for the Super Cap pilots so it doesn't mean CCP will make it work well for mission running. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but CCP is responsible for looking at the big picture. As players we tend to want what's best for us, but I'm sure all Marauder pilots can agree, we spent WAY too much time training to get into a Marauder so CCP needs to be careful about their final iteration for this re-balance.
That is completely different. Super carriers were never intended to be that powerful back then.
However, Marauders have always been intended for pve, even if they sucked at it.
You should know this is a bad comparison.. Shame on you |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
225
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 22:56:00 -
[3974] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Personally I'm against your proposal. The differences between shield and armor resists and between the different factions make for more interesting gameplay and I'd just as soon not see them removed.
Also your proposed resists are, just from the look of things, not balanced compared to current resists. Never mind that you actually end up with a nerf to certain resists which throws things off rather badly. Some quick calculations though say that your proposed resists are a nerf over any of the current T2 resists in terms of total % increase and therefore total EHP.
True. This is why the base omni resists should be higher. Sleipnir shields resists profile: EM 62,5/ Exp 50 / Kin 40% / Th 50. This what should be implemented on maraduers. Overopowered? Then reduce active tank to 50-75%. This is the crown jewel of the sub-cap ships. Give it something to shine with. Better and more balanced resists make those ships more potent at lvl4, incursions, wh sleepers, pvp. And make everyone happy.[/quote]
Except that, as we've already established, none of these resist profiles is bad across the board. The Caldari and Gallente profiles are fantastic against a large number of different rat types. The issue is more the loss of the local repair bonus on the hull which forces you to fit the Bastion mod for tank.
To reiterate, I am not a fan of giving all of these ships flat omni resist profiles for both shields and armor. It removes faction flavor and promotes simplifying the game. People talk about UI changes dumbing down the game when they're not, this actually IS dumbing down the game.
Xequecal wrote:Paladin - Same role bonus and slot layout. 5% laser damage, 7.5% laser tracking, 7.5% laser optimal range, 20% energy vampire (not neutralizer) transfer amount and range per level. In PvE, that means you can essentially mount +25 cap/sec rechargers in your highslots, as rats can be infinitely nossed. That frees up all your slots for damage/tracking/tank mods. Also, since it's nos only, it's not overpowered in PvP like neuts would be, but still has a niche use, like draining capitals.
Actually rats can no-longer be infinitely NOSed. There was an update to the NOS thread a week before it was un-pinned stating that NOS now affects rats the same way it does PvP ships but that rats have a higher than average capacitor value.
Xequecal wrote:Kronos - Make a drone boat out of this, because let's face it, hybrid guns suck for PvE, especially on an immobile platform like these. You can't select damage type, blasters have no range, and railguns have no damage. So, same slot layout as now, but no turret or launcher hardpoints. Instead, replace the current role bonus with one that reduces the fitting of Drone Control Units by enough that the ship can fit them. 10% drone hp/damage, 7.5% drone range, 7.5% drone speed/tracking, +1 drone control unit per level. The ship has plenty of high slots left over to fit remote reps to RR sentry drones to maintain aggro if rat aggro on drones is a problem. Also has a niche use in a sentry drone PvP doctrine. In exchange for flying a 1bil hull, you can bring 2 players' worth of sentries. Probably not worth it, but could be.
I'm against this for two reasons. One it leaves the Marauder hull without a Hybrids platform for any race and there are a fair number of people who do use hybrids for PvE. Second we already have the Dominix and Navy Dominix as missioning drone platforms and these are currently two of the best performing mission ships. This also proves that a drone ship doesn't need extra drones to perform well and what you're talking about would essentially be a 100% bonus to drone damage.
The "can't select damage type" argument is erroneous because Gallente drones do enough extra damage to make it almost never worth it to go with another race's drone type and Sentry's are selected based on other attributes besides damage type as well.
Also Large Railguns do plenty of damage they just have fairly poor tracking, thankfully the Kronos gets a tracking bonus and can fit a couple of Tracking Computers quite easily. It can then pop frigs at range while they come in or it can use its drones on the ones it misses. For a Blaster boat the combination of the Falloff bonus and the range bonus on Bastion make that something of a moot point since you'll be able to apply quite good damage within the orbit range of every type of mission rat.
Xequecal wrote:Vargur - This ship would get the web bonus because it's thematically appropriate for Minmatar. Same role bonus/slot/turret layout. 5% RoF, 7.5% projectile tracking, 10% projectile falloff, 10% web strength per level. Give it more drone bandwidth than Paladin/Golem because autocannons have low dps.
Except the only thing we've heard from Vargur pilots in this thread is "no, web bonus is crap, get that off my ship!". Also autocannons get lower DPS but tend to make up for it in other ways like good tracking, damage selection, and absurd falloff. Also they're not a drone focused race. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
225
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 00:06:00 -
[3975] - Quote
Nexumis wrote:Um i think the guy meant enough tank to run mission, anoms, and plexs. But from a pvp perspective against a mach....no just because you can tank the machs dps doesnt mean you win, mach can always leave the fight due to bastion module rooting you in place lol. The reason i can see why ccp WILL NOT increase the dps is because they dont want people to bring more isk into the game than we currently are making because increased dps means faster missions, and more isk per hour. And then null sec anom/ratters would be making less isk then a effecient mission runner even though now i believe that is the case. EVE needs a major isk sink before ccp starts making mission, complexs, anoms more profitable then they are now. And just to prove you wrong, dps is the biggest factor with a even balance of range. As in ill still use a machariel after the bastion module, because i will still overall run missions faster, considering im just grinding for lp/bounty, no salvage but hey i can just contract those bookmarks out to a salvaging corp and make some isk with that as well : ).
This is a completely erroneous set of assumptions. First of all you can make more ISK doing Null sec anomalies than you can missioning, and null-sec rats represent a bigger ISK faucet due to their much higher bounties. Plus there are a number of other ISK faucets to be taken into account such as Incursion payouts, Blue Loot in wormholes, and Insurance payouts. There are also several major isk-sinks already present in the game and CCP has, historically, done a fairly good job of managing the relation of faucets and sinks in the game.
Also no one said these ships had to be awesome at soloing. You could probably fit up a dual web setup for fighting on undocks and hold the Mach long enough to kill him though, and if you can't then oh well he also can't kill you. Plus I never mentioned bastion mode. With a T2 tank these ships can still tank better than a Pirate Battleship even without it. There is more to game balance than raw DPS.
From a game design perspective it's pretty easy to explain why CCP don't want to make these DPS kings. T2 ships are supposed to be specialized with some form of unique bonus or benefit. DPS is not at all unique and making these ships DPS kings would mean they would need to be nerfed in other ways. Far simpler to keep Pirate ships as top tier raw DPS but give these ships better application and tank while throwing a few T2 bonuses like the MJD bonus onto the hulls.
You are, of course, free to use whatever hull you want for whatever reasons you want. Making these the penultimate mission ship for every play-style would remove choice from the game and generally be a poor move.
Nexumis wrote:Ok but back to the main subject, this bastion module will not encourage players (smart players) to go break up camps in null/low sec, since you will be rooted in place, a seiged moros will make quick work of you no matter how good your tank, and no battleship can have enough ehp to buffer against a dread blapping them. They wont need that webbing loki anymore : ). And with that said i think the only way ccp will do a damage increase on the marauders utilizing the bastion module would be if the module could only be activated outside of empire space like null/low sec.
No one ever said that these ships are supposed to fit these specific niches. CCP gives us tools and we find uses for them. If a tool doesn't perform well enough then it gets adjusted to re-worked. The stated goal was Niche PvP application. If that niche is only really fit for a few small-gang compositions then fine.
Shivanthar wrote:If you read my previous post (some posts up), I am here to help you CCP.
This is directly taken from merriam-webster: MARAUD: to roam about and raid in search of plunder. MARAUDER: somebody who is "marauding"
First Known Use: 1711
So, congrats to you guys! You converted (or trying to convert) something that have been raiding (and for this, must be fast) for last 3 centuries into a stationary object. Or slow object if not stationary. Good work! I can maraud with this stationary object FASTER THAN EVER! YES!
Edit: I perfectly understand that you guys try to fit a pvp role for these beasts. If so, make it role-wise, speed it up in a unique way that people can "maraud" in it. MJD'ing is not marauding. A marauder is always in the heat of the battle, but it is very agile that it takes what it wants and goes away. It is no way intent to fight, instead it goes in, takes what it wants and runs out.
Please think this seriously before giving us a stationary role.
You can "Maraud" in any ship in Eve. Balance by word definition is not good balance. I would rather see them change the name of the ship line and come up with a good and balanced concept than try to meet the ridiculous requirement of fitting everyone's interpretation of a dictionary definition.
Marauders seem to have originally been called "Marauders" because they were designed to go into Deadspacee mission pockets and come back full of loot. These have never been intended to be primarily PvP ships. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 00:08:00 -
[3976] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Except the only thing we've heard from Vargur pilots in this thread is "no, web bonus is crap, get that off my ship!". Also autocannons get lower DPS but tend to make up for it in other ways like good tracking, damage selection, and absurd falloff. Also they're not a drone focused race.
seconding the no web on the vargur, we can already track frigates at 12 k with the guns we have, (ammunition like titanium sabot increases tracking by 20% - added to tracking mods means there's not much inside 100km that we can't hit regardless of how fast you try to be - unless you bring ECM or TD we will hit you often enough to be dangerous even if we're not dealing our full)
short version: we're already powerful enough, we don't need a 100% killzone, 90% is fine.
still think ccp needs to reign in their ship dev team...too many changes focused around a singular fitting or idea. (see vagabond and cyclone changes for example, kite ASB fetish much guys?)
no point making one thing blatantly prevalent over everything else just cuz you thought it'd be cool to give people a reason to do it - saw a comment earlier about ccp's job being to make changes with regard the larger picture - and this is exactly what they haven't been doing, only using small isolated images and not using the larger interconnected relations when balancing ships.
making a strategy prevalent is the player base's method of telling you that you haven't quite done your job right, when one ship is being used more it means it's far more suitable to the environment than the others in some way, so you have to change the environment to make the other ships more useful - or change the ships that aren't so useful to compete your problem in tackling this is below:
balancing just HACs, JUST frigates, JUST marauders - focusing on what these ships do to each other within JUST their role and not what they do to other hulls, other roles or what those hulls and roles do to them, worse how players respond to these hulls and roles in space both before and after changes - understandably there are many many relations to consider just inside a hull class but you as software designers should damn well know better - if you don't consider all of the relations you're gonna throw every relation you don't think of out of whack and ruin the whole system - you end up where the truth table equals false for two true values.
(HACs are role balanced? == true + tech 3's are role balanced? == true, both hulls in combination balanced? == false, t3's are overpowering t2's because of range of application for a fraction greater cost - roles are not balanced in relation to each other)
[edit] 'overpower defined as one hull group seeing greater deployment than another within the same role type, not necessarily a question of sheer power. [/edit] |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
225
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 00:18:00 -
[3977] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:How often is this going to be 1v1? The local tank won't mean much when the ship is completely neuted and can't receive RR. Dual XLASB fits are going to be harder to crack but not impossible. PVP is rarely fought evenly in this game so you can't balance on 1v1 only.
You can get around neuting with NOS in the highs and a Cap Booster. Plus, as you said, this game is rarely 1v1 only which makes the 1v1 vs a Mach example even more irrelevant.
TheFace Asano wrote:In PVE you barely need a tank once your dps is high enough. When your energy skills are high enough even cap boosters start becoming less necessary as well (or cap re-chargers). All the battleships dps cap at around 1 -1.2k (minus the Gallente ships). Your not going to get more performance out of tank at this point, your performance is limited by DPS. I can't personally get better isk / hour than in a cruise CNR with Fury / Precisions. 1x Rigor rig and a single TP on a BS and your pretty much maxed on applied damage. A second TP only helps with Frigs / Cruisers, and then its really not a big difference. The Golem is not going to do more damage than the CNR within either of these proposals without using torps and increasing rigor rigs and using multiple tps. There is no Pirate ship that will do more dps either, unlike the Mach within the Minmatar lines Tempest Fleet and Maelstrom. Most of the other BS in Faction and Pirate can field 3-5 Sentry drones, which will increase damage over the currently proposed Marauders because of their direct lack of BS sized drone bays. I really don't personally like drones, so make the racial weapon system higher damage than the rest of the BS while keeping drone damage low or utility based and keeping a focused difference in what the ship is. They should be the gunships (or missile) of sub-cap ships, owning damage, application and projection, and let the faction / pirate ships be faster and more drones / options for fitting / better buffer setups.
This example is somewhat specific to missile ships though, which generally have better damage application in missions than turret based ships. For turreted ships how well you apply your DPS is just as important as your tank or your overall DPS is.
For example in Incursion Vanguard sites a Blaster fit Rokh actually does equal DPS to a Megathron at the ranges the incursion rats orbit at and can project its DPS much further as the ships are coming in making it an overall slightly better ship despite having lower maximum DPS.
It doesn't make sense to give Pirate Battleships more tank since these are already tank focused ships and T2 resists of any sort are going to represent a pretty big advantage in that respect. Plus a combination of top tier DPS with damage application and projection would be, to put it mildly, a bit over-powered. Every ship in Eve trades raw DPS for application in its bonuses, there's no reason that these should be an exception.
TheFace Asano wrote:I don't know what direction CCP is going take past this, but I bet they are testing both on the internal servers and maybe a few other ideas. Maybe there is something else going on with the winter expansion that these marauders mesh well with we don't know about. Maybe we will find out next week.
Well, Black-Ops Battleships are on the block as well, as are EWar Frigates and then Pirate Ships after that. It's possible but somewhat unlikely that they may try and tackle all four (Marauders, Black-Ops, EAFs, and Pirate Ships) for the Winter expansion but it's pretty likely that they have at least some idea of where the other Battleship hulls are going that they've been balancing around.
Shivanthar wrote:Trying to nullify my point won't affect anyone in a good way. You clearly don't see my point in this.
Want a raider ship that can become stationary 100km away? Go ahead with dominix and sentry drones already. Same barn, different color.
Want to snipe in a stationary Marauder? How unique it is... *Claps* There is a maelstrom for that, put 8x1400, mjd away, done.
What I simply proposed is, when changed, it is much unique for a marauder to be able to go faster. There is no BS for this, as far as I know. A group of Marauders with this bonus will become *much* unique than any other thing. People really want stationary sniper as a T2 unique role? *Sigh*
Well, I've been using marauders for missioning. I also have Typhoon fleet issue where I can put some sentries, mjd away and do my mission. What will be the unique difference between these two? Let me tell you, since my TFI is AT, I can easly fit it with a mwd or AB, which lets me salvage faster than a marauder (supported with salvage drones).
Edit: Not only this idea supports pvp, it will also make pve very enjoying.
Anyone couldn't see my point? Someone?
Actually the Black Ops Battleships and the two most popular Pirate Battleships are quite fast. Black-Ops have bonuses to agility and speed already and the Macheriel and Vindicator are two of the fastest Battleships in the game and the Bhaalgorn, for an Amarr armor tanked ship, is no slouch either. It seems more likely that the Black-Ops will be faster and more maneuverable T2 Battleships and that the Pirate Battleships will end up as some sort of Attack/Combat Battleship hybrid with good all around stats. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
180
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 01:07:00 -
[3978] - Quote
Maataak wrote:The only thing that concerns me with any change in ship ability, Is whether or not it can still be used as it was before it was "rebalanced." To have spent 1.5bil+ on a ship that is central to my gameplay, and then one day it can no longer be used as such is at the very least frustrating.
The proposed changes sound interesting as long as they don't require me to radically change my style of play, or drop another 1.5bil on a ship that will do what my Maurader used to do.
Agreed. Especially with iteration 2's changes, this is becoming less and less a "Marauder Re-balancing" and more a "Marauder Nerf, New Mod Introduction". Right now, the only advantages the marauders get compared to their current design is slightly better locking range, locking speed, some extra grid, odd T2 resists, and an eighth high slot. What they loose is their tanking bonus, a quarter of the web bonus off the two marauders that already have them (not to mention the very same bonus to the other two that don't need them), speed, agility, cap, drone bay and control range, and they retain the same ****-poor sensor strengths as before. With these changes, the only thing that stands a chance to look good at all is the bastion module itself, not the marauders.
|

Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
60
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 05:42:00 -
[3979] - Quote
At first these changes looked really good for PVE, which is what the ship is FOR, mind you. Now, it can barely fight better than a normal BS against Amarr rats (t2 resists are useless there) and it's become a metal frankenstein...
For all the ISK and skill points you need to fly one, I thought they would be better than this.. I wanted to fly a transformer, but now it just looks useless and overpriced for a weaker ship overall for missions.
Seriously, get yourselves together, CCP.  "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |

Wish Kaan
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 08:59:00 -
[3980] - Quote
Here's my 2 cents:
Give the paladin a tracking bonus add the cap bonus into the hull keep the old rep amount bonus Increase the explo velocity bonus for golem to 7.5%/lvl and leave the shield boost bonus same Turn the kronos into a drone boat,maybe even switch hulls with the sin and give it same bonuses to drones as ishtar has now Keep the vargur as is with a 7.5% rof bonus instead of 5%
Lastly reduce bastion rep to 75% bonus and give it a tiny dmg bonus 10% or something to keep all these ships above or in line with the buffed pirate BSs maybe even an energy neut reflect bonus instead of dmg since we are talking about a subcap size capacitor in a cap priced ship Also increase their agility and add an MJD cycle reduction bonus(5sec?) into the role for fast redeployment Oh yes and forget about the silly web bonus who you gona web when you cant move and cant be remote assisted? |
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 10:19:00 -
[3981] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote: Agreed. Especially with iteration 2's changes, this is becoming less and less a "Marauder Re-balancing" and more a "Marauder Nerf, New Mod Introduction". Right now, the only advantages the marauders get compared to their current design is slightly better locking range, locking speed, some extra grid, odd T2 resists, and an eighth high slot.
So you're receiving an extra high, basically identical rep-output (effective rep due to higher baseresists is approx. 40% superior, which is a tiny bit more compared to the old 37.5% bonus), those resists also matter for remote tanking, so something totally new here, and lastly the grid is all but irrelevant. They will be plain better at PvE as they were before, and now - thanks to the massive PG boost - even be able to be fitted for pvp. If you see a marauder nerf here, then the phantasm is the best ship in eve.
Sobaan Tali wrote: What they loose is their tanking bonus, a quarter of the web bonus off the two marauders that already have them (not to mention the very same bonus to the other two that don't need them), speed, agility, cap, drone bay and control range, and they retain the same ****-poor sensor strengths as before. With these changes, the only thing that stands a chance to look good at all is the bastion module itself, not the marauders.
For the rep-amount, pls use math to see how marauders will even come out on top, and how dual-LAR-setups now even make sense at all (hint: base-hp) . 90%-webs are a broken thing in this game to start with, no loss. Given how many people didn't need a web anyways, guess it's a nice throw in for the brawling application.
As far as I can see, one sort of marauder doesn't have a bastionmodule, loads 2 heavy smarts/neuts and SR guns, goes for pure Buffer and runs phased muons on some fleetmates, and the other has a MJD, local tank and use of the bastionmodule. They both look pretty viable in many spaces. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - The right corp to join if welping a 10bil fleet makes you want to welp a 20bil fleet right afterwards |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
238
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 10:36:00 -
[3982] - Quote
Wish Kaan wrote:Here's my 2 cents:
Give the paladin a tracking bonus add the cap bonus into the hull keep the old rep amount bonus Increase the explo velocity bonus for golem to 7.5%/lvl and leave the shield boost bonus same Turn the kronos into a drone boat,maybe even switch hulls with the sin and give it same bonuses to drones as ishtar has now but 15% to drone dmg instead of 10% Keep the vargur as is with a 7.5% rof bonus instead of 5%
The Paladin already has far and above the best cap of all of them so if the cap bonus goes it's more than likely you won't get much back on it.
Missiles already have better damage application than turrets so their bonuses tend to be smaller.
Gallente already has a drone boat for every occasion and does not need more. The Dominix is already a fantastic drone boat for missions and a replacement isn't really needed.
I have no idea what you're talking about with the Vargur, which already has a 5% bonus on TQ and the only Battleship that gets a 7.5% bonus to ROF is the Tempest which is split guns.
Wish Kaan wrote: Lastly reduce bastion rep to 75% bonus and give it a tiny dmg bonus 10% or something to keep all these ships above or in line with the buffed pirate BSs maybe even an energy neut reflect bonus instead of dmg since we are talking about a subcap size capacitor in a cap priced ship Also increase their agility and add an MJD cycle reduction bonus(5sec?) into the role for fast redeployment Oh yes and forget about the silly web bonus who you gona web when you cant move and cant be remote assisted? 
These are not supposed to out-DPS the Pirate Battleships they are supposed to apply the damage they have better. These ships are also not supposed to be strictly cost effective, as with every T2 ship. T2 makes every individual pilot count more and lets you do things you can't always do with T1 hulls, but they are not supposed to be strictly better than T1 or Faction in every way.
The MJD cycle time is the only time these hulls are really vulnerable to tackle, so it doesn't make sense to reduce both the cycle time and the re-use time and the re-use time is a better bonus.
I agree on the web bonus, just not for the same reasons.
---
Seriously I don't get why everyone is so adverse to Damage Application compared to raw DPS. Go into a mission in any Battleship and you'll see that you can rather easily 1-shot Frigates provided you can get clean hits on them. This is even true with Railguns which have some of the lowest alpha of any large turret, under-cut only by Projectiles.
If you can reliably kill Frigates in 1-2 shots instead of 3-4 and Cruisers with a similarly reduced number of hits then your mission completion times go down significantly. No I am not referring to mission Blitzing but you tend to use fast ships for that anyway and often DPS is secondary to speed (depending on mission).
If you're dealing reduced damage to these smaller NPC ships then against said ships you're going to see more effective DPS out of a damage application bonus than you are out of raw DPS since the application bonus is effectively bonus DPS equal to the % of the bonus until you're doing full DPS to a target.
To illustrate this point I fitted out a bare-bones Mega and a Succubus with 2 Nanofibers. This approximates the speed of a Mordu's Katana as its bearing in on you and I picked an approach that was slightly off-center to approximate an NPC diving headlong into your guns trying to reach its orbit radius. Irridium Charges were used since they still have the potential to one-shot the Katana or at least come close and the top range was about where several of the pockets spawn in Mordu's Headhunters.
This is the base-damage with no active Tracking Computers and here's the damage increase from the first Tracking Computer. As you can see that's a fairly significant bump in damage, approximately 31% in-fact. With all four tracking computers we get all the way up to 295, which is almost a 70% increase in applied damage.
In-fact in this model the applied damage increase from the first active tracking computer is greater than the applied damage increase from the first Magnetic Field Stabilizer.
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
238
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 10:39:00 -
[3983] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:So you're receiving an extra high, basically identical rep-output (effective rep due to higher baseresists is approx. 40% superior, which is a tiny bit more compared to the old 37.5% bonus), those resists also matter for remote tanking, so something totally new here, and lastly the grid is all but irrelevant. They will be plain better at PvE as they were before, and now - thanks to the massive PG boost - even be able to be fitted for pvp. If you see a marauder nerf here, then the phantasm is the best ship in eve.
I'd still like to see the rep-bonus kept on the hull for people who prefer to mission without Bastion due to previously enumerated concerns about damage distribution in missions and the resist bonuses on the Vargur and Paladin, but overall you are correct that the ships are still receiving a buff compared to their current state on TQ. |

Gigi Barbagrigia
Digital Oddity
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 13:31:00 -
[3984] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Seriously I don't get why everyone is so adverse to Damage Application compared to raw DPS. Go into a mission in any Battleship and you'll see that you can rather easily 1-shot Frigates provided you can get clean hits on them. This is even true with Railguns which have some of the lowest alpha of any large turret, under-cut only by Projectiles. ...
Good post.
My suggestion would be to just drop Bastion idea on existing T2 BSs, fiddle with attributes a bit (plenty of good suggestions in this thread) and then take another BS hull, fit Bastion module (in preferably 2 flavours) and design new T2 BS around that. Surely art department can't be that overtaxed not to be able to slap some dark paint on 4 hulls. Thus we get "rebalanced" Marauders and new ship in winter expansion. Even if new T2 BS won't be perfect, and we all know it won't be , the above still looks better on the PR side than leaving us with some forced hybrid nobody will be happy about.
PVE will retain its 1.5 bil toy and PVP would get possibly decent ~1 bil one. Come up with a name, an associated skill for hulls, 2 Bastion skills and you've also created some (small) additional ISK sink. |

James Sunder
572 CORP
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 14:55:00 -
[3985] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:I'm not saying it's right or fair, but CCP is responsible for looking at the big picture. Yes they are responsible for looking at the "big picture" only they don't realy do this do they?
Bonuses to range on guns but no increase to tractor bonus.
Can tank the 1st wave of a vanguard incursion but what good is it after that? What about the rest of the incursions where we need rr?
High useful resists on only half the marauders. Also the replacing of the repair bonus with those resists.
Giving them a MJD bonus rather than a MWD. Where the only way the MJD would even be worth using is if you could select your jump distance.
Yep, I would definitely sya that CCP looks at the "big picture."
|

XvXTeacherVxV
Nightmare Machinery Illusion of Solitude
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 16:57:00 -
[3986] - Quote
How about instead of a regular tractor beam bonus, they can fit a single capital tractor beam mod with a 99.9% reduction in powergrid cost? That means 100 CPU, 75 PG, 200 GJ Activation / 20s. Not easy to fit, but not unbearable either for a pve boat. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
435

|
Posted - 2013.09.21 18:13:00 -
[3987] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 18:36:00 -
[3988] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 - My Orignal Suggestions
And this hasn't improved on it. Why give the Golem a dual EWAR bonus, which only benefits torpedoes, on an idea that favors cruise missiles? Am I out of the loop that maybe torpedoes will get a slight bump in missile velocity or something?
Web bonuses on ships designed to hop by micro jump drive isn't a good idea either because webs only have a 10km range, I can see why it was pulled off the other two Marauders (that I can't use anyway.)
The current track will make the Golem completely obsolete, the Navy Raven will be superior in it by far in every way (DPS, navigation, and overall usefulness), and its going to be a shame, since I put allot of time and effort into getting Marauders V early.
As I was talking with friends, allot of the Marauders are good as they are, just need some minor tweaking to put them ahead of the T1/Faction Variant, but since thats completely blown out of the water by Bastion, I still think my original ideas as linked in the thread above is all that'll need to be done to make the Golem even the slightest complacent.
Simple Rule of EVE: Don't put long range guns on a ship designed for short range combat, and don't use short range electronic warfare on a ship designed for long range combat. This violates both.
Bastion Aside, all the Golem needs is one of the following...
- Lai Dai Resists. - 5% per level Rate of Fire for Marauders skill.
[or]
- Decreased mass and increased agility - Bonus to MWD Signature radius (like the Assault ships)
Just small things that'll offset them from the T1 variants. We don't want to balance all the battleships together, there is a reason why you need Battleship V and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V and half a year of strict training for the ship itself, is because the ship needs to be better than the others you can fetch for Battleship 1.
I know my whining comes late as they're going to announce the winter update already, but just like the whole Aurum system, we're starting to drift away from the idea that classes of ships need to be different, a frigate shouldn't kill a decently fitted battleship, thats not balancing.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 19:14:00 -
[3989] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Seriously I don't get why everyone is so adverse to Damage Application compared to raw DPS. Go into a mission in any Battleship and you'll see that you can rather easily 1-shot Frigates provided you can get clean hits on them. This is even true with Railguns which have some of the lowest alpha of any large turret, under-cut only by Projectiles. ...
Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate.
More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh. |

Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 19:35:00 -
[3990] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Seriously I don't get why everyone is so adverse to Damage Application compared to raw DPS. Go into a mission in any Battleship and you'll see that you can rather easily 1-shot Frigates provided you can get clean hits on them. This is even true with Railguns which have some of the lowest alpha of any large turret, under-cut only by Projectiles. ...
Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate. More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh.
Moreover I want my Paladin be viable against Guristas/Angels/Serpentis/EOM, not just BR/Sansha.
Also I really have no idea where to use MJD. I have MWD on my Mach/Vargur/Kronos/Vindi - it takes a few secs to travel a few dozen kms. You don't need MJD on Vargur/Kronos for sure. You don't need MJD on Paladin because you don't need Paladin itself. So the Golem is the only ship that might use MJD, but you need 3+painters on it so meds will be filled with some other stuff.
Same goes for Web bonus - it's useless on any ship, including Golem.
It's kinda sad Marauders also get drone bay nerf.
All in all it feels like Marauders are going to be much worse after the change/patch. Whatever. |
|

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
86
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 19:54:00 -
[3991] - Quote
I'd like to weigh back in. At this point:
- I love the general balance changes to PG, CPU, fitting, scan res, etc.
- I don't like the bastion module as-is, and will likely never/rarely use it. Basically, no matter the bonuses, I don't want to be stuck immobile and/or unable to warp in almost any situation.
- The MJD bonus does not solve the immobility problem. As the MJD is limited to 100km, it is not useful for regular play, only for very specific tactics. A MWD bonus of some sort would work much better to counter the bastion module.
- I actually like the resistance bonus idea now, it provides better omni-tank on the same build (no bastion) than the current Marauders with the repair bonus. However, it provides worse specific tank for two damage types per ship. The Paladin especially feels this very heavily. Different numbers here would make up for the lack of repair bonus, and allow the ships to perform in PvP and PvE at the level that they should.
The most important thing to me:
-Marauders damage output is not balanced, especially for PvE - as is or in the proposed chagnes. T1 battleships can get more raw dps for the same or less ISK investment and there is only a certain amount of projection that matters. To prove this, I'd like to demonstrate with a pair of fits:
I've decided to use a Dominix and a Kronos for comparison here since the Kronos is very good at projecting damage, gets great dps, and is very effective at killing frigates at close range due to it's web bonus. I'm also basing these ideas fits off of running L4 missions, although the same basic ideas apply to incursions, wormholes, and ratting in null. Note that I am using the Kronos as-is and not the "new" version, as it would be unfair, since the new version gets a reduced web bonus, greatly reduced drone dps, lower em/thermal tank (although I'm using a serpentis damage profile for the following numbers since that seems the most fair), lower speed for mission mobility, etc.
The Dominix is T2-fit with t1 rigs and requires no implants to fit or to get these numbers with. It is also not entirely min-maxed, there are surely slight tweaks that would change this ship to perform better in L4 missions:
5x 425mm Railgun II (Fed Navy Antimatter) Drone Link Augmentor II
2x EM Ward Field II Thermic Dissipation Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II
2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 4x Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II
2x Large Processor Overclocking Unit I Large Ancillary Current Router I
5x Garde II 5x Warden II 5x Hammerhead II 5x Hobgoblin II 5x Warrior II 5x Hornet EC-300
This ship does 338.34 dps with railguns and 800.20 with drones, for a total of 1138.53 dps. A number of other options are available with the build, such as removing the drone link augmentor for an additional gun but reduced drone control range, which is probably fine for Serpentis, and even replacing the railguns with blasters - again fine for Serpentis, but this is a more balanced build. The tank is 537.12 against Serpentis for 2 minutes and 50 seconds, which is very comfortable at ~1140 dps. The railguns have an optimal of 36km with a falloff of 30km, which is effective for most engagement ranges but can be adjusted by switching ammo if other ranges are necessary. Gardes get an optimal range of 41.25km with a falloff of 12km, and Wardens push 600dps out to 103.125km (optimal) plus an additional 30000m falloff, both of which are outside of this ships drone control range and targeting range. The guns track at 0.0126 radii/sec and the gardes at 0.0495 radii/sec, and any frigates that a pilot is unable to snipe can be destroyed by light drones. This Dominix costs about 250 million isk.
Now for the Kronos. This Kronos is heavily faction fit and numbers will be reported without implants.
4x 425mm Railgun II (Fed Navy Antimatter)
2x Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer (Tracking) Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster (Scan Res) Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
4x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer Centus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Centus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
5x Hobgoblin II 5x Warrior II 3x Garde II
The Kronos does a maximum of 914 dps with railguns and 180 with Gardes, for a total of 1094 dps. Note that with the proposed Kronos changes, the Kronos will be unable to fit this partial flight of gardes at all, and the most dps it will be able to push is with Hammerheads (and no room for light drones) at 1072.40. The guns have the same optimal and falloff as the Dominix, but now they track at 0.0333 radii/sec - this time, however, scripts can be modified to increase the optimal at the expense of tracking instead of switching ammunition types, which is really nice past ~50 km. The Gardes track at 0.036 radii/sec (drone link augmentors can be added to the build to adjust drone control range but the Gardes won't be able to hit that far). The ship tanks Serpentis at a rating of 812.80 dps for 5 minutes and 48 seconds, which is pretty well over-tanked.
This Kronos costs around 3.5 billion ISK. It does not meet the Dominix in raw DPS and, while it does project damage and track better, especially past 50km, very few rats hang out outside of 50km. The problems are more obvious with a T2-fit Kronos. While this Kronos can use light drones to kill frigates, the proposed version will only be able to web and hit with medium drones + guns (still effective, but it's better for mission completion time to let your drones kill frigates while you kill the big stuff).
The Kronos is probably better, as is, marginally. Consider it fit with t2 mods and compared to a navy domi and things will become more obvious. Consider it with the proposed changes - some sort of damage increase, bastion or otherwise, is probably worth at least looking into. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1891
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 19:55:00 -
[3992] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: Seriously I don't get why everyone is so adverse to Damage Application compared to raw DPS. Go into a mission in any Battleship and you'll see that you can rather easily 1-shot Frigates provided you can get clean hits on them. This is even true with Railguns which have some of the lowest alpha of any large turret, under-cut only by Projectiles. ...
Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate. More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh. Moreover I want my Paladin be viable against Guristas/Angels/Serpentis/EOM, not just BR/Sansha. Also I really have no idea where to use MJD. I have MWD on my Mach/Vargur/Kronos/Vindi - it takes a few secs to travel a few dozen kms. You don't need MJD on Vargur/Kronos for sure. You don't need MJD on Paladin because you don't need Paladin itself. So the Golem is the only ship that might use MJD, but you need 3+painters on it so meds will be filled with some other stuff. Same goes for Web bonus - it's useless on any ship, including Golem. It's kinda sad Marauders also get drone bay nerf. All in all it feels like Marauders are going to be much worse after the change/patch.
Yes, the current marauders look quite better than the crippled beast called iteration proposal 2. And that should light a warning; if the class is getting its own art set (bastion mode), then marauders should be something the players want to fly instead of cheaper, less skill-intensive and better T2 battleships. And I haven't seen anyone willing to fly one of those iteration 2 eyesores in the last 99 pages... The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 20:12:00 -
[3993] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:So you're receiving an extra high, basically identical rep-output (effective rep due to higher baseresists is approx. 40% superior, which is a tiny bit more compared to the old 37.5% bonus), those resists also matter for remote tanking, so something totally new here, and lastly the grid is all but irrelevant. They will be plain better at PvE as they were before, and now - thanks to the massive PG boost - even be able to be fitted for pvp. If you see a marauder nerf here, then the phantasm is the best ship in eve. I'd still like to see the rep-bonus kept on the hull for people who prefer to mission without Bastion due to previously enumerated concerns about damage distribution in missions and the resist bonuses on the Vargur and Paladin, but overall you are correct that the ships are still receiving a buff compared to their current state on TQ.
They are receiving buff for PvP, but Paladin and Vargur get nerf for PvE. Since I already have a ton of different ships for PvP I strongly support the PvE faction (though I do PvE like 1/10 of my EVE time ).
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 21:26:00 -
[3994] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Trying to nullify my point won't affect anyone in a good way. You clearly don't see my point in this.
Want a raider ship that can become stationary 100km away? Go ahead with dominix and sentry drones already. Same barn, different color.
Want to snipe in a stationary Marauder? How unique it is... *Claps* There is a maelstrom for that, put 8x1400, mjd away, done.
What I simply proposed is, when changed, it is much unique for a marauder to be able to go faster. There is no BS for this, as far as I know. A group of Marauders with this bonus will become *much* unique than any other thing. People really want stationary sniper as a T2 unique role? *Sigh*
Well, I've been using marauders for missioning. I also have Typhoon fleet issue where I can put some sentries, mjd away and do my mission. What will be the unique difference between these two? Let me tell you, since my TFI is AT, I can easly fit it with a mwd or AB, which lets me salvage faster than a marauder (supported with salvage drones).
Edit: Not only this idea supports pvp, it will also make pve very enjoying.
Anyone couldn't see my point? Someone? Actually the Black Ops Battleships and the two most popular Pirate Battleships are quite fast. Black-Ops have bonuses to agility and speed already and the Macheriel and Vindicator are two of the fastest Battleships in the game and the Bhaalgorn, for an Amarr armor tanked ship, is no slouch either. It seems more likely that the Black-Ops will be faster and more maneuverable T2 Battleships and that the Pirate Battleships will end up as some sort of Attack/Combat Battleship hybrid with good all around stats.
Black Ops ships are not designed to fight in front line. And their dps application is nowhere near any marauder in its current state. Moreover their speed bonus is only unique amongst other cloaked ships. From pve perspective, you generally warp onto a beacon, which de-cloaks you. Since you'll get targeted in most missions, re-cloaking and gaining speed bonus would be a pain. This statement alone will nullify its use of pve and its speed advantage... Two of the pirate battleships are "faster" than any other battleship, but by no means they haven't got any *bonus* to the speed. By proposing bonus speed, I mean a real bonus to a mwd, ab or raw speed, where you see a transformed marauder bs leaving others in the dust. There are no other ships in this role (including all proposed bonuses from bastion mode). |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 22:12:00 -
[3995] - Quote
@shivanthar
I looked at ur suggestion awhile back about the bastion module doing a large speed increase at the expense of dmg application. At first I wasn't really keen on the idea, but now I'm thinking it would be pretty sweet. Esp on missions like worlds collide, massive attack, room V on AE, dread pirate scarlet, recon 3 (I use a stabber but it would be cool I'm the vargur). All of which would be better than mjd.
+ I think it would look cool transforming, make some beefy thruster stuff, the vargur's Mohawk and beardhawk retracting, etc |

Motoi Yamato
Riiizses Riiizs
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 00:28:00 -
[3996] - Quote
how will eb bonus help me if im using micro jump drive?
i use arti... im doing something wrong?
give a range bonus instead +7,5%/ lvl r something
EDIT: ive read some1 wrote to put a new tier 2 marauder... that would be nice, it would lower the price for the tier 1 and tier 2 could be used in lowsec |

Jordanna Bauer
Mafia Redux Black Legion.
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 03:10:00 -
[3997] - Quote
MJD + long range bonuses + short range web bonuses = stupid design. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 03:17:00 -
[3998] - Quote
Jordanna Bauer wrote:MJD + long range bonuses + short range web bonuses = stupid design. Don't forget about about midrange tractors xD |

NexusWatcher
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 04:53:00 -
[3999] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Jordanna Bauer wrote:MJD + long range bonuses + short range web bonuses = stupid design. Don't forget about about midrange tractors xD
IMO, the MJD should only be applied to the Marauders out of the current ideas applied. Get in, get out. The mixed range bonuses from tractors, bastion, web and MJD are all over the board. Perhaps change the web bonus to range as opposed to speed to at least make it a little more viable if you're using short range weapons w/ bastion w/ web. At that range, the tracking should be decent enough to hit pretty damn well, again, just my opinion.
I am not bashing the Bastion as I LOVE the idea, but the bonuses that are being applied to it are not conducive to what the Maruader ships actually do: they are a care bear ship for moderately fast killing and salvaging all in one package.
On the same note though, I have a feeling that you all at CCP were going for the "Oh, I'm care bear, but now I'm in bastion mode, I'm now an uber care bear with sharp teeth" approach (not in those words or course so please don't hate me.)
I recommend a T2 variant of the Tier3 BS should get the Bastion; we are still missing this T2 variant (apart front the Myrmidon/Drake you guys still won't change). Or perhaps apply the bastion module for all BS class ships only as they will then become more used PvP wise; more tank, more range. I would **** bricks if I saw a fleet of them as they would be relatively inexpensive POS bashers as opposed to the Dreads.
Just my 2 cents. I've been watching this thread awhile and I hear to many people complain about the lack of the web on the initial change, and then when it get's put back in, it's "That makes no sense with all the range variables". Make up your damn minds people.
*please forgive any typos as I am half coherent and in the middle of an alcoholic adult drink* |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 05:15:00 -
[4000] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Moreover I want my Paladin be viable against Guristas/Angels/Serpentis/EOM, not just BR/Sansha.
Also I really have no idea where to use MJD. I have MWD on my Mach/Vargur/Kronos/Vindi - it takes a few secs to travel a few dozen kms. You don't need MJD on Vargur/Kronos for sure. You don't need MJD on Paladin because you don't need Paladin itself. So the Golem is the only ship that might use MJD, but you need 3+painters on it so meds will be filled with some other stuff.
Same goes for Web bonus - it's useless on any ship, including Golem.
It's kinda sad Marauders also get drone bay nerf.
All in all it feels like Marauders are going to be much worse after the change/patch.
I'm not sure where this hate comes from. Lasers are equally viable on Serpentis rats than hybrids are on Sansha/Blood rats. Both have their guns shooting into the 2nd and 3rd highest resists of these rats. |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 05:25:00 -
[4001] - Quote
Quote:-Marauders damage output is not balanced, especially for PvE - as is or in the proposed chagnes. T1 battleships can get more raw dps for the same or less ISK investment and there is only a certain amount of projection that matters. To prove this, I'd like to demonstrate with a pair of fits:
Marauders in grind PvE where only DPS really matters are balanced by the fact that they can loot/salvage and run the PvE content simultaneously. Anoms are generally not salvaged because it's better ISK to just use that time running another anom. Being able to salvage it while you're running it while still putting out 90% of the DPS you were doing before is way better ISK/hour than you can make with anything else.
Marauders really shine in PvE where tank actually matters, especially wormholes. These ships as currently designed will kill capital escalations because it's way better ISK/hour just to run C3 anoms with them. You can make 250-300m/hour easily from C3s at current prices with a Paladin as currently spoiled. 30km range conflag that will kill 15-20m sleeper BS rats in under a minute, and then salvages and loots that rat while you're shooting the next one? You can't beat that. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 07:32:00 -
[4002] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:@shivanthar
I looked at ur suggestion awhile back about the bastion module doing a large speed increase at the expense of dmg application. At first I wasn't really keen on the idea, but now I'm thinking it would be pretty sweet. Esp on missions like worlds collide, massive attack, room V on AE, dread pirate scarlet, recon 3 (I use a stabber but it would be cool in the vargur). All of which would be better than mjd.
+ I think it would look cool transforming, make some beefy thruster stuff, the vargur's Mohawk and beardhawk retracting, etc
This was my point :) I did some calculations. Since it is early morning right now, my head hasn't booted up fully yet. But as far as mjd travel time/time spend ratio goes on @ lvl 5, creating a bonus to increase MWD bonus by %1000 and including some agility, does what ccp's design wants to do on Marauders anyway.
MJD @ lvl 5, posts you to 100km in 6 seconds which is something ~14000 meters/sec
My test is on Vargur, so it goes with 163m/s raw speed and 1138 m/s with mwd @ lvl 5. In order to make that 1138 close to 14000, boosting mwd speed bonus by %1000 does the trick. But agility is also needed to fully get that potential. Cut the mwd cycle time and cap usage in somewhere half, so it is now more controllable.
What this does? pve: tons of cool stuff, very enjoying mission running. pvp: during fleet battles, ppl need to think twice on getting their ally pilots' wrecks faster, look WHO is coming to maraud those wrecks. Including its cargo bay size, now, I call this as a unique role for marauders on the battlefield.
Just brainstorming ;) |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
198
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 07:49:00 -
[4003] - Quote
Any update from CCP...? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1893
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 08:19:00 -
[4004] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Any update from CCP...?
I mailed CCP Falcon, let's see if community management can clarify what are these guys up to. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
946
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 11:24:00 -
[4005] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote: Moreover their speed bonus is only unique amongst other cloaked ships.
Its a throwback from the original stealth bombers in the game.
Back when I first trained into them, they used cruise missiles (with the bomber skill effecting sig radius of targets), couldn't use covert ops cloaking devices, and the bomber skill itself also tied into a velocity bonus when cloaked. |

Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 11:32:00 -
[4006] - Quote
Can 1 ccp guy give a **** and read all this **** and give us a reply ..and change the curent ******** bonuses on the ships plz ..ffs the guy who had the ideea to nerf webs in 2008 has to be the dumbest idiot u guys ever hired ..because that **** creates problems ..u nerfed webs then u introduced ships that use -90 webs ..is ******** as **** ..when if you would of left them alone we wouldnt have this problem ..further more u did this **** with eos also ..nerfed the 5 heavy drone usage when u introduced bandwith ..now u made it 5 heavy drone usable again ..so u nerf some **** way back then 4-5 years later u bring it back and go like : hey guys look new patch new bonuses ..and the newbs from 2010 have no clue how things actually were ..ill say it once ill say it again ..leave the curent marauders as they are just remove the stupid tractor beam / salvage bonuses add more powergrid make them ATTACK ones and introduce new ones with the dumb bonuses u guys want because in 200 pages of this posts everybody complains they dont want bastion module ..everyone wants more dps and everyone wants the rep bonus ..giving them the t2 resists = **** ..golem will still have 0 em resist on shield just higher kin / thermal ..and in pvp is usless same goese for kronos ..higher kinetic / thermal ..but still 10 explosive 50 em ..so again ..in pvp usless ..those t2 resists = **** ..we need the rep bonus to make it work ..not only they got 14 sensor str8 or even 12 in paladin case but now u simplly ******* them up completly ..also as i read and someone sugested ..when u do a stupid patch like this u should ask the guys who spent money or isk on gtc's ..hey guys u spent 40 days to train marauders from lvl 1 to 5 ..now with the new bonuses ..do u guys like it or u want your skp refunded ..because tbh for some is frustrating ..i got it lvl 4 ..but still if you make them like u intend to do ..with mjd and **** like that id like those skp refunded |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 12:25:00 -
[4007] - Quote
"Can 1 ccp guy give a **** and read all this **** and give us a reply .."
Not with that attitude.
Be gratefull they are taking this long at LEAST....
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
946
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 13:34:00 -
[4008] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:"Can 1 ccp guy give a **** and read all this **** and give us a reply .."
Not with that attitude.
Be gratefull they are taking this long at LEAST....
GRATEFUL!?!?!
But this is EVE!!!! |

Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 14:09:00 -
[4009] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:"Can 1 ccp guy give a **** and read all this **** and give us a reply .."
Not with that attitude.
Be gratefull they are taking this long at LEAST....
Thats what they get paid for bro ...like it or not eve is a service that has costumers...if no one would play eve would go bankrupt ..so yeah like the other 100+ people that replyed to this we would like an answer on how this is going ..even if they say : we are still testing bla bla ..but still is an answer ...with the bs's they posted before fan fest the patch notes ..replyed then after fan fest no reply and they went on and did it ..so lets hope the same **** doesent happen here and we get golem with webs and other ******** **** like that |

Motoi Yamato
Riiizses Riiizs
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 14:35:00 -
[4010] - Quote
but what was the point not givinfg marauders t2 resists? they are t2 ships...
a like the bastion modul, but it not so usefull for pve lets have another hull take the DPS role, or the tnaking role...
make the tank huills pve marauders and the dps hulls pvp marauders |
|

marVLs
413
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 15:53:00 -
[4011] - Quote
Some peps forget about important thing. Second iteration was a nerf to nerfed marauders... why?
By removing 37.5% rep bonus
You will say: "bu bu but they give full T2 resists". But there's two problems with that:
1. T2 resists are worse than 30% res bonus on bastion to all damage types, and they were applied even to hull with first bastion version, golem gets at least those 30% to EM, paladin gets better for em, therm, but now it has terrible resists, totally useless for PVE.
2. Let's take golem, without bastion, firstly if You fight against EM damage type rats You tank them a lot better thanks to 37.5% rep bonus, now You got only little better thermal res, so not even close good to first version... Same for paladin.
Im still voting for making marauders biggest raw DPS BS's, and Pirate BS's to be fastest, biger buffer, and better aplication BS's.
For PVE You don't need incredible tank, or PVP modules, so lacks in application bonuses should be counter by fitting slots with those modules (TC's etc), and for PVP thanks to bonuses to application pirate BS's could use slots for PVP modules.
Another Bastion idea:
- it buffs You'r DPS
- gives EWAR immunity
- gives omni resists but not so much, let's say 20%
- allows remote reps...
but...
completely turn off local reps for entire duration of the cycle
Could be cool, will You risk incoming DPS for Your DPS boost? Will Your buffer hold on for 1min when You will kill NPC's faster? Will You risk? Of course You can bring friend with logi, and that's good, afterall it's MMO game. Multiboxing? Ok, more cash for CCP thanks to another subscribed account. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
454
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 17:38:00 -
[4012] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Another Bastion idea:
- it buffs You'r DPS
- gives EWAR immunity
- gives omni resists but not so much, let's say 20%
- allows remote reps...
but... completely turn off local reps for entire duration of the cycle
Could be cool, will You risk incoming DPS for Your DPS boost? Will Your buffer hold on for 1min when You will kill NPC's faster? Will You risk? Of course You can bring friend with logi, and that's good, afterall it's MMO game. Multiboxing? Ok, more cash for CCP thanks to another subscribed account.
This would be great for pvp'ers and even group pve. However, this would be TERRIBLE for solo pve.
You want dps? You want resist? You want ewar immunity? Cool, use bastion
Do you wanna be able to self rep? Well, you're going to have to skip bastion and suck in a ship just like you do now... Hell, probably suck worse cause you'll probably lose a portion of your 100% damage buff outside of bastion in order to give bastion a damage buff that's worth it.
It's almost a good idea, but not quite... |

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 18:51:00 -
[4013] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: Marauders in grind PvE where only DPS really matters are balanced by the fact that they can loot/salvage and run the PvE content simultaneously. Anoms are generally not salvaged because it's better ISK to just use that time running another anom. Being able to salvage it while you're running it while still putting out 90% of the DPS you were doing before is way better ISK/hour than you can make with anything else.
Marauders really shine in PvE where tank actually matters, especially wormholes. These ships as currently designed will kill capital escalations because it's way better ISK/hour just to run C3 anoms with them. You can make 250-300m/hour easily from C3s at current prices with a Paladin as currently spoiled. 40km range conflag that will kill 15-20m sleeper BS rats in under a minute, and then salvages and loots that rat while you're shooting the next one? You can't beat that.
This was the idea about Marauders when I started the game, before the introduction of the Noctis, but quite honestly, the ISK/hr is noticeably better in L4 missions if you kill the rats in your Marauder/Higher dps ship, and return to the site with a Noctis, so long as the mission is within a jump or two of your agent. Marauders limited number of tractor beams, slow salvaging rate, and small cargo bay in comparison to the Noctis waste much more time than the time spent in warp to switch ships and come back. If you save bookmarks for your missions and salvage once every hour and a half or so it is even more efficient, given the far reduced travel time.
Given the slowness of salvaging in a marauder, it might be arguable that this method is better even if your salvaging ship is a destroyer. I don't know exactly about the ISK efficiency in a C3, I can definitely see what you mean since sleepers take so much longer to kill. I would have to experiment to comment on that. Still, I don't think marauders should be balanced around running solo PvE in C3s. |

Just Lilly
122
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 19:51:00 -
[4014] - Quote
I want some of that blue feedback
Thank you Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 20:41:00 -
[4015] - Quote
Gargantoi wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:"Can 1 ccp guy give a **** and read all this **** and give us a reply .."
Not with that attitude.
Be gratefull they are taking this long at LEAST....
Thats what they get paid for bro ...like it or not eve is a service that has costumers...if no one would play eve would go bankrupt ..so yeah like the other 100+ people that replyed to this we would like an answer on how this is going ..even if they say : we are still testing bla bla ..but still is an answer ...with the bs's they posted before fan fest the patch notes ..replyed then after fan fest no reply and they went on and did it ..so lets hope the same **** doesent happen here and we get golem with webs and other ******** **** like that
your local doctors, police,civil servants,teachers,lecturers not to mention any and all service persons you deal with in day to day life get paid for whatever services they make available to you.
Their entitlement to courtesy is in no way diminished by making a living from it.
I agree that an update would be nice but not at the behest of the usual irate consumer **** , calm down, don't hurt yourself , its just a ship rebalancing.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 20:42:00 -
[4016] - Quote
Just Lilly wrote:I want some of that blue feedback
Thank you This guy gets it. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 20:55:00 -
[4017] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:"Can 1 ccp guy give a **** and read all this **** and give us a reply .."
Not with that attitude.
Be gratefull they are taking this long at LEAST....
GRATEFUL!?!?! But this is EVE!!!!
Check the bf3 "forums" , puts this community to shame in terms of eloquent articulation of views and opinions.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
198
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:46:00 -
[4018] - Quote
So where did things leave off? The second iteration? (not really thrilled at the prospect of sifting through 100+ some odd pages for an update) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
172
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 22:50:00 -
[4019] - Quote
I don't see why each racial hull could not do a few unique things.
If they are still meant to be efficient mission running hulls, they should justify their use in all the PvE content in the game, including running deep enemy null and wormhole space and exploration and incursions AND whatever CCP adds next.
I still don't understand why not have a "PvE dedicated" ship. We already have cargo ships and recon ships, and those don't get taken into PvP combat. Well, not by sane people anyway.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Heinrich Rotwang
Deutsche Luftschlosswerke AG
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 23:48:00 -
[4020] - Quote
New role upcoming : grab a marauder, find yourself some w-space with an ewar d*ckstar whos owners are offline, siege (or "bastion"), reinforce POS while watching a movie? |
|

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Forsak3n.
607
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:18:00 -
[4021] - Quote
Now that exploration, time to marauder? I am agree with this adjustment speculation. Please make the bastion animations take less time than the Rorqual industrial core animation and I will be a happy red star! Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
455
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:47:00 -
[4022] - Quote
I don't know about you guys, but I'd like to hear something soon.. Need to know whether or not I'm going to start saving up for a golem, cause I don't think I wanna sell my nightmare. |

Agwarin
Hooded Underworld Guys The Retirement Club
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:12:00 -
[4023] - Quote
Wooo, this thread is approaching 200 pages! Who knew Marauders would be so exciting!
I support the changes, however, I did prefer the changes suggested before the changes changed to the new changes. But so far it seems good to me, overall. The Tornado can suck it. I want the-áNaru-Kami |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:13:00 -
[4024] - Quote
And their whole thing about gearing Marauders for PVP is poor anyway.
I can PVP fit my Golem. Its actually pretty easy.
Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher (use faction ammo), 3x Medium Energy Neut Meds: 2x Medium Shield Boosters, 2x Invuln field, 2x Target Painter 1x 100MN MWD (Can swap a paint for a Heavy Capacitor booster if necessary) Lows: (either) 4x Ballistic Control, or 3x Ballistic Control, and 1x Damage Control Rigs: 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell, 1x Rigor Rig Drones: 10x Hornet EC-300, 5x Acrolytes.
Its not too expensive, and packs a punch, especially with Crystal implants jacked in. I've used it in PVP wardecs all the time, and even the most seasoned Vindicator has a hard time dealing with it without some RR.
So they saying that Marauders don't apply to PVP is untrue, just people choose to use other ships for PVP because they are more designed for it. Marauders are supposed to be the pinnacle of PVE, ISK generation. Doing any of the current ideas just gimps any ISK generation, and mission runners and ratters alike will just go back to T3 cruisers.
Original Suggestions: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 |

Helgur
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:46:00 -
[4025] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote: I can PVP fit my Golem. Its actually pretty easy
It's rather apparent that you can't.
No point on a pvp ship and godawful amarr drones which every pvper worth his salt knows are useless. Terrible |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
455
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:55:00 -
[4026] - Quote
Ya know, after playing around with golem fits for a while, the one thing that I can say the golem could use is an extra mid slot. Especially if we're getting a mjd bonus.
My opinion, drop it from 8 highs to 7 and up the mids from 6 to 7. This means that the golem can more easily fit TPs, as it's the only bs that needs a support fire mod against approaching targets. The other ships can hit pretty well against approaching npcs due to not needing much tracking.
However, the same could be said for the other marauders as well. Remove the 8th high and give them an extra mid or low, depending on which is better balanced. When in pve this also means choosing between a salvager and bastion, and in pvp it means choosing between more utility and bastion.
This would be extremely good for the Golem at least... |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 06:01:00 -
[4027] - Quote
I think that there have been some really interesting ideas proposed and I suspect at least a few of them are being vetted for next proposal and I'm interested to hear what CCP has to say about some of them. While I understand that it is a difficult job to balance the game, especially something as high SP as marauders, since it's been a couple of weeks, some real feedback would be appreciated at this point.
Barring that, even an acknowledgement of the community input - so much as "we're workign on it, please be patient" - would be appreciated at this point.
Thanks for all your hard work, CCP et al. I think we'd all like to hear from you. |

Aldanar Vorlax
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 07:58:00 -
[4028] - Quote
Considering alot of people don't like the immobile effect from bastion and would be too crippling in fleet fights, id propose the following changes to how bastion works:
1) Keep the ships current speed/mass/agility outside of bastion mode
2) When Bastion is deployed, instead of being immobile it reduces your speed/mass/agility to the levels suggested in this re-balance.
3) Keep EWAR immunity bonus except for disruptors and scrams which can point them while still in bastion.
What this will give you is a ship which while in bastion is still mobile but slower. Yes they can be pointed while in bastion however as it currently stands with bastion they'll point you as soon as your out of bastion anyway, this is also to stop you insta-warping as soon as bastion finishes. But atleast your moblie enough to give you a chance of killing any ships pointing you or getting out of range. Sorry but close to 1 Billion isk ships should not be immobile target dummies. |

Just Lilly
123
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 08:29:00 -
[4029] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium, report!
 Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Nyu Kaminari
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 08:48:00 -
[4030] - Quote
I am Thinking this:
Convert the Tier 3 BS hull into a PvP marauder. There are no tech II versions as of yet. Use this hull with the bastion modules and whatever bonuses CCP uses in correspondence with the community.
+7.5 % extra armor amount per level of marauders to Amarr and Gallente tier 3 Hulls +7.5 % extra shield amount per level of marauders to Caldari and Minmatar tier 3 Hulls
This is under the assumption that these ships will be fielded in large fleets with logistics 
Abbadon Hull: -10% Damage to overheated energy weapon and all armor modules per level of marauders.
Rokh Hull: -10% Damage to overheated hybrid weapons and all shield modules per level of marauders.
Hyperion Hull: +10% to the control range and tracking speed of sentry drones per level of marauders.
Maelstrom Hull: + 5% to agility and velocity per level of marauders.
ROLE BONUS: Able to use Bastion Modules. (The effects of the modules should be changed depending on the Hull.)
//Please feel free to add constructive criticism or help elaborate on this Idea if you like it.\\ 
|
|

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
257
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 08:51:00 -
[4031] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:They are receiving buff for PvP, but Paladin and Vargur get nerf for PvE. Since I already have a ton of different ships for PvP I strongly support the PvE faction (though I do PvE like 1/10 of my EVE time  ). Besides T2 resists for PvP are good for buffer tank, but since you cant be remotly repped... of course no one forces me to use bastion, yep. Also no one forces me to use siege on my revelation... who needs like 840% dps incerase...
A better comparison to what I'm going for would be the Triage Module on a Carrier. There are fits that use it and then there are fits that don't. That provides more meaningful choices and trade-offs than a "you must fit this or the ship sucks" module. Carriers have exponentially more fitting options and uses than Dreadnaughts right now which have essentially two fits that aren't "lol-fits". Cap/Pos bashing fits and Dread-Blapp fits. The difference between the two is generally at most a couple of module slots.
Overall we shouldn't be comparing anything that's well balanced and fun to use to the Dreadnaught which has major balance issues within its class and is more specialized than even most rebalanced T2 hulls.
Gigi Barbagrigia wrote:Good post. My suggestion would be to just drop Bastion idea on existing T2 BSs, fiddle with attributes a bit (plenty of good suggestions in this thread) and then take another BS hull, fit Bastion module (in preferably 2 flavours) and design new T2 BS around that. Surely art department can't be that overtaxed not to be able to slap some dark paint on 4 hulls. Thus we get "rebalanced" Marauders and new ship in winter expansion. Even if new T2 BS won't be perfect, and we all know it won't be  , the above still looks better on the PR side than leaving us with some forced hybrid nobody will be happy about. PVE will retain its 1.5 bil toy and PVP would get possibly decent ~1 bil one. Come up with a name, an associated skill for hulls, 2 Bastion skills and you've also created some (small) additional ISK sink.
Thanks.
That said, I disagree. Generally the art pipeline is one of the most stressed at any game studio. There's always more stuff to do.
In the specific case of Eve there are more ships to V3 (pretty sure we're not done with that yet), T2 hulls to revamp and/or add customization to, and probably a dozen other things we don't know about yet.
Overall I disagree with the premise that Bastion should be moved to another set of hulls. It works with the tank-focus of the current Marauders and gives them something unique and fun. Plus no one that I've seen suggest this has suggested what to do with the current Marauders beyond "make them a bit better" which is ambiguous at best.
Also the current Marauders cost about 800 mil to 1 bil for the hull.
chaosgrimm wrote:Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate.
More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh.
I disagree with your initial premise and feel I've provided fairly effective evidence as to why this is the case, at least for turret based ships. Between the current tendency of frigates to go after drones and the large proportion of frigates and cruisers in many Level 4 missions, never mind scan-sites, the ability to more effectively remove frigates and cruisers can make a large difference in mission completion times.
As has been repeatedly brought up increased tank allows for increased damage and damage application since you can trade tank modules for other things like utility, damage application, projection, and damage increases. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
257
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:04:00 -
[4032] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Black Ops ships are not designed to fight in front line. And their dps application is nowhere near any marauder in its current state. Moreover their speed bonus is only unique amongst other cloaked ships. From pve perspective, you generally warp onto a beacon, which de-cloaks you. Since you'll get targeted in most missions, re-cloaking and gaining speed bonus would be a pain. This statement alone will nullify its use of pve and its speed advantage... Two of the pirate battleships are "faster" than any other battleship, but by no means they haven't got any *bonus* to the speed. By proposing bonus speed, I mean a real bonus to a mwd, ab or raw speed, where you see a transformed marauder bs leaving others in the dust. There are no other ships in this role (including all proposed bonuses from bastion mode).
Edit: I still have been doing missions with my Vargur today. The most common problem is to get that damn wreck @ 61km. If you know what I mean (I hear this same problem from any other marauder pilot out there repeatedly)... In order to get a good tank&dps application together, I needed to fit AB instead of Mwd. This toy seriously needs bonus to its tractor beam range. Other than that, I don't see anything else to be adressed, if not counting missing TP bonus.
I know some marauder pilots want to bring their havoc into pvp battlefield. In that case, ccp please, don't brake my tank, don't break my dps... Do what you want, I give up with my meaningless proposals for you :P, just please this is the only damn toy I'm playing this game with a great pleasure and enjoyment. *Tears*
First off I was actually referring to the skill bonuses on the Sin and Panther. 5% Agility and Velocity respectively, in addition to the overall 25% per level cloaked velocity bonus. Plus the hulls are extremely speedy compared to others of their faction with the Panther coming in at 146m/s before bonuses, the Sin and Redeemer at 117m/s each, and the Widow at 106m/s. A couple of these are faster than any of their T1 or T2 counterparts (Pirate Faction not withstanding) and those tend to be the more popular ones.
The problem of them not being combat effective ships is definitely something that CCP is not happy with. This thread by Jayne Fillon has some great sources on what CCP have already said about the Black-Ops class and some initial musings on potential fixes.
Personally I find the idea of a transformed BS moving around *faster* to be somewhere between stupid and silly and certainly not in keeping with other existing game mechanics.
CCP's logic on not wanting to have a ship that's 100% pure PvE and nothing else is pretty good for the Marauders. The objective here was never to make them PvP god-ships (like some people want) but to make them viable for niche PvP applications and better in PvE. Overall, compared to the Pirate Battleships the tractor bonus is hardly worth mentioning.
Shivanthar wrote:Yes, this was my point :)
I did some calculations. Since it is early morning right now, my head hasn't booted up fully yet. But as far as mjd travel time/time spend ratio goes on @ lvl 5, creating a bonus to increase MWD bonus by %1000 and including some agility after transforming into "X mode", does what ccp's design wants to do on Marauders anyway.
MJD @ lvl 5, posts you to 100km in 6 seconds which is something ~14000 meters/sec
My test is on Vargur, so it goes with 163m/s raw speed and 1138 m/s with mwd @ lvl 5. In order to make that 1138 close to 14000, boosting mwd speed bonus by %1000 does the trick. But agility is also needed to fully get that potential. Cut the mwd cycle time and cap usage in somewhere half, so it is now more controllable. During X mode, since vargur's weapon systems are working half, damage output is halved and internal tracking is not working well on that speed so tracking is also halved.
What this does? pve: tons of cool stuff, very enjoying mission running. pvp: during fleet battles, ppl need to think twice on getting their ally pilots' wrecks faster, look WHO is coming to maraud those wrecks. Including its cargo bay size, now, I call this as a unique role for marauders on the battlefield.
Becoming a perfect raider for wrecks, in-game description for marauders now become a reality: "... Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines."
See?
Just brainstorming ;)
I'm going to assume you mean a +1000% velocity bonus, aka multiplying the current velocity bonus of ~500-615% by three rather than multiplying it by 10...
Oh, no, wait you really meant 1000% increase. Okay then...
The ways this can be abused are too many to name but I'm going to list off the ones that come to mind immediately:
- Hilariously abuse-able bump ship.
- Uncatchable kiting Battleship
- Able to almost completely ignore bubbles unless scrammed and use of the MWD + cloak trick means that the ship will likely be out of the bubble in one cycle anyway.
Seriously, not in any way balanced. There's a reason we have a MJD on a cooldown instead of a hilariously oversized MWD module. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
257
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:05:00 -
[4033] - Quote
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:Considering alot of people don't like the immobile effect from bastion and would be too crippling in fleet fights, id propose the following changes to how bastion works:
1) Keep the ships current speed/mass/agility outside of bastion mode
2) When Bastion is deployed, instead of being immobile it reduces your speed/mass/agility to the levels suggested in this re-balance.
3) Keep EWAR immunity bonus except for disruptors and scrams which can point them while still in bastion.
What this will give you is a ship which while in bastion is still mobile but slower. Yes they can be pointed while in bastion however as it currently stands with bastion they'll point you as soon as your out of bastion anyway, this is also to stop you insta-warping as soon as bastion finishes. But atleast your moblie enough to give you a chance of killing any ships pointing you or getting out of range. Sorry but close to 1 Billion isk ships should not be immobile target dummies.
This isn't going to be enough of a trade-off to counter-balance gaining EWar immunity, which is a really powerful ability. In order to get something powerful like that you need to give up a lot in trade-offs. |

Aldanar Vorlax
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:18:00 -
[4034] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Aldanar Vorlax wrote:Considering alot of people don't like the immobile effect from bastion and would be too crippling in fleet fights, id propose the following changes to how bastion works:
1) Keep the ships current speed/mass/agility outside of bastion mode
2) When Bastion is deployed, instead of being immobile it reduces your speed/mass/agility to the levels suggested in this re-balance.
3) Keep EWAR immunity bonus except for disruptors and scrams which can point them while still in bastion.
What this will give you is a ship which while in bastion is still mobile but slower. Yes they can be pointed while in bastion however as it currently stands with bastion they'll point you as soon as your out of bastion anyway, this is also to stop you insta-warping as soon as bastion finishes. But atleast your moblie enough to give you a chance of killing any ships pointing you or getting out of range. Sorry but close to 1 Billion isk ships should not be immobile target dummies. This isn't going to be enough of a trade-off to counter-balance gaining EWar immunity, which is a really powerful ability. In order to get something powerful like that you need to give up a lot in trade-offs.
Yeah, your right, still think making it an immobile weapons platform isnt the answer though. |

TehCloud
Mastercard.
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:34:00 -
[4035] - Quote
Even though the T2 Resists are really nice I'd still like to see at least the Hull Resistance remain on the Bastion Module. Since you can't abort the cycle and you also can't move, that makes you really vulnerable to getting alpha'd.
Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.
I think they deserve that little bit more protection against alpha.
Regards
My Condor costs less than that module! |

Kane Fenris
NWP
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 10:05:00 -
[4036] - Quote
TehCloud wrote: Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.
as i understand it you can not move but you can align |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
258
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 10:14:00 -
[4037] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:TehCloud wrote: Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.
as i understand it you can not move but you can align
If you aren't moving then there is no difference in align time based on direction of your align. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
455
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 10:42:00 -
[4038] - Quote
I still see a problem with 8 high slots in pvp, even if you have a bastion module. Look, right now marauders have 3 utility highs. With these changes they'll either have 4 utility highs with t2 resists, or 3 utility highs, t2 resist, ewar immunity, increased rep, and greater range.
They should not be given another high slot. They should have to choose between bastion and utility with 7 high slots, as bastion is both a defensive and an offensive utility.
That said, I do still feel that extra slot can be applied elsewhere. As I stated before, the Golem currently has 7 mids. It has a bonus to TP effectiveness, but still requires at least 2 target painters to apply effective dps against even a battleship using cruise missiles. It will also have a MJD bonus. This is 3 of the 7 mid slots already. Now, assume it retains the web bonus, that is 4, leaving 3 mid slots for a cap booster and/or tank. This is why the Golem currently under performs in PVE. You either can't tank all that well, you cap out quickly, you have crap damage application, and/or you have to slow boat to the warp gate. Adding an extra mid would certainly help alleviate this issue and would allow the golem to be more competitive in pvp and pve. As it sits right now, the only good way to fly a golem in both situations is stationary platform with cruise missiles and hard tank...
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
173
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:03:00 -
[4039] - Quote
I had a "for laughs" fit Golem I was going to go flying after skilling into it properly with a mate in missions where he flies a Sentry Domi, just to burn up T2 missiles cheaply and run an AB cap stable doing like just under 1 km a sec, just to balance his "I'll stay right here, they can come get me" attitude. Crap fit that has no tank and dies in a fire if caught? Sure, but STILL tons more fun then flying the current iteration in this forum, I mean, I'd ACTUALLY have to "fly" it, not Bastion up and pretend I'm another Domi.
I'd say the hull(s) need more stuff that makes them unique (assuming non PvP, cause it's a ***** to balance) :
* 4 turrets that behave as 8? Checked already; cheaper T2 and faction missiles use ... err ... 3 turrets that hit like 9? Ok, ok, never mind. * Hull that gives special MJD abilities? God yes, but current ideas seem off. * Some EWar immunity? Perfect for those rats that annoy other hulls, just make it NPC EWar only if need be. * NPC aggro management? People already use painters/ecm to pump up aggro, why not boost that, making drones last longer, especially if you nerf drone bays. Players will STILL shoot your drones anyway. * Larger immunity effects from things the Sleepers use, like neuts, or even having reduced/being immune to the effects of Wormholes Enviromental effects.
I'm not saying these are "good ideas", I'm trying to point out you could stack these old/new type of things on a Marauder hull, and make it unique to fly and not really effect when actual human players want to blow you the hell up. My ideas are lame-ish, but surely CCP could bang out a few better ones for more interesting PvE action. Someone said "Capital Tractor Beam" ... oooh, that would be cool.
Well, I think CCP is doing what it should do right now, and that is getting worried that they will create some abomination that people will wreck havoc with and are trying to play it safe. I'm just worried it will make the hull so weird that it will be used even less.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Apogeddon
True RoHiKaNs
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:16:00 -
[4040] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Some peps forget about important thing. Second iteration was a nerf to nerfed marauders... why? By removing 37.5% rep bonus  You will say: "bu bu but they give full T2 resists". But there's two problems with that: 1. T2 resists are worse than 30% res bonus on bastion to all damage types, and they were applied even to hull  with first bastion version, golem gets at least those 30% to EM, paladin gets better for em, therm, but now it has terrible resists, totally useless for PVE. 2. Let's take golem, without bastion, firstly if You fight against EM damage type rats You tank them a lot better thanks to 37.5% rep bonus, now You got only little better thermal res, so not even close good to first version... Same for paladin. Im still voting for making marauders biggest raw DPS BS's, and Pirate BS's to be fastest, biger buffer, and better aplication BS's. For PVE You don't need incredible tank, or PVP modules, so lacks in application bonuses should be counter by fitting slots with those modules (TC's etc), and for PVP thanks to bonuses to application pirate BS's could use slots for PVP modules. Another Bastion idea:
- it buffs You'r DPS
- gives EWAR immunity
- gives omni resists but not so much, let's say 20%
- allows remote reps...
but... completely turn off local reps for entire duration of the cycle
Could be cool, will You risk incoming DPS for Your DPS boost? Will Your buffer hold on for 1min when You will kill NPC's faster? Will You risk? Of course You can bring friend with logi, and that's good, afterall it's MMO game. Multiboxing? Ok, more cash for CCP thanks to another subscribed account.
That's something good, approved +1.
Someone say it will nerf solo but i say no, without bastion they will work just like now (just bring them back rep bonus, and give more speed they have even before nerf). This Bastion gives possibilities, it buffs PVE in many scenarios for solo, but not everytime (so its not OP). In my opinion it's good, it wont make switching bastion everytime, over and over again so player will not get bored with it. And it connects player to ship even more, You need to know Your ship, how much it can take, it creates better player-ship connection, and bringing something new to missions, because You must learn them from scratch to be able to know when You can enter bastion. |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:20:00 -
[4041] - Quote
Apogeddon wrote:marVLs wrote:Some peps forget about important thing. Second iteration was a nerf to nerfed marauders... why? By removing 37.5% rep bonus  You will say: "bu bu but they give full T2 resists". But there's two problems with that: 1. T2 resists are worse than 30% res bonus on bastion to all damage types, and they were applied even to hull  with first bastion version, golem gets at least those 30% to EM, paladin gets better for em, therm, but now it has terrible resists, totally useless for PVE. 2. Let's take golem, without bastion, firstly if You fight against EM damage type rats You tank them a lot better thanks to 37.5% rep bonus, now You got only little better thermal res, so not even close good to first version... Same for paladin. Im still voting for making marauders biggest raw DPS BS's, and Pirate BS's to be fastest, biger buffer, and better aplication BS's. For PVE You don't need incredible tank, or PVP modules, so lacks in application bonuses should be counter by fitting slots with those modules (TC's etc), and for PVP thanks to bonuses to application pirate BS's could use slots for PVP modules. Another Bastion idea:
- it buffs You'r DPS
- gives EWAR immunity
- gives omni resists but not so much, let's say 20%
- allows remote reps...
but... completely turn off local reps for entire duration of the cycle
Could be cool, will You risk incoming DPS for Your DPS boost? Will Your buffer hold on for 1min when You will kill NPC's faster? Will You risk? Of course You can bring friend with logi, and that's good, afterall it's MMO game. Multiboxing? Ok, more cash for CCP thanks to another subscribed account. That's something good, approved +1. Someone say it will nerf solo but i say no, without bastion they will work just like now (just bring them back rep bonus, and give more speed they have even before nerf). This Bastion gives possibilities, it buffs PVE in many scenarios for solo, but not everytime (so its not OP). In my opinion it's good, it wont make switching bastion everytime, over and over again so player will not get bored with it. And it connects player to ship even more, You need to know Your ship, how much it can take, it creates better player-ship connection, and bringing something new to missions, because You must learn them from scratch to be able to know when You can enter bastion.
eeeeeeeehhw, no.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
987
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:30:00 -
[4042] - Quote
Jasper Blanch wrote:I think that there have been some really interesting ideas proposed and I suspect at least a few of them are being vetted for next proposal and I'm interested to hear what CCP has to say about some of them. While I understand that it is a difficult job to balance the game, especially something as high SP as marauders, since it's been a couple of weeks, some real feedback would be appreciated at this point.
Barring that, even an acknowledgement of the community input - so much as "we're workign on it, please be patient" - would be appreciated at this point.
Thanks for all your hard work, CCP et al. I think we'd all like to hear from you.
They already said that they are listening to the community but won't be updating/commenting on the marauder changes until we get closer to the winter update. I'm just here for the likes |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:48:00 -
[4043] - Quote
does the increase in range when in bastion mode apply to all modules? so scrams, disruptors, webs etc? or just weapons? |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
569
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:48:00 -
[4044] - Quote
For those asking for an update yadder yadder yadder perhaps catching this will help:
Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
252
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 12:46:00 -
[4045] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:For those asking for an update yadder yadder yadder perhaps catching this will help:
Yes, everyone knows. Quoting yourself for the I-told-you-so... It was hard to fail as you constatnly got that message logging in.
To the tacklerangebonus in bastion: It currently doesn't benefit and most likely shouldn't. Having a 25% rangebonus would mean that they receive something like 23-24km cold webrange, using 80% webs. Ofc including CS V skirmishlinks with imp, not like you'd need a web for PvE anyways. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 12:49:00 -
[4046] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate.
More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh. I disagree with your initial premise and feel I've provided fairly effective evidence as to why this is the case, at least for turret based ships. Between the current tendency of frigates to go after drones and the large proportion of frigates and cruisers in many Level 4 missions, never mind scan-sites, the ability to more effectively remove frigates and cruisers can make a large difference in mission completion times. As has been repeatedly brought up increased tank allows for increased damage and damage application since you can trade tank modules for other things like utility, damage application, projection, and damage increases.
I lol'd at this. If you are trolling I applaud you. Otherwise you should reconsider the viability of your mission fits / general mission strategy. Frigs are not a big deal on marauders / mission runner toons. Again, most r no more than 1 volley, some r 2, and very very few are actually r required to be killed by drones even on turret based marauder hulls. Also, additional lol for whining about cruisers.
The lvl 4 missions I can think of off the top of my head are Buzz Kill and maybe room 1 of Vengeance. Both r no trouble not only to complete, but steamroll.
Concerning your point about tank, even without significantly sacrificing dps for tank when fitting (by this I mean a potential additional dmg / dmg app mod offers so little it might as well be replaced with a tanking mod), your tank is still enough to handle all 4s. On missions which can break your tank, they won't b/c of your gank. This also contributes to the support of a direct dmg inc over dmg application.
Might I ask you to post your marauder mission fit? |

Metal Icarus
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
626
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:01:00 -
[4047] - Quote
I would like to see the bastion module be useful for PVP as well. Maybe, it would give a bonus to remote reps and it would only be able to rep other ships in bastion mode.
.... Don't get bumped? In granting it the ability rep others in bastion mode, instead of an ewar immunity, maybe it should increase the sensor strength and lock range. |

Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:01:00 -
[4048] - Quote
Jasper Blanch wrote:I think that there have been some really interesting ideas proposed and I suspect at least a few of them are being vetted for next proposal and I'm interested to hear what CCP has to say about some of them. I am, unfortunately, not as optimistic as you are. From the past threads i have read, once CCP goes silent that seems to be what ends up on TQ. And sure, the winter expansion may be ~3months out, but that just gives CCP long enough to finish up the new art/models and toss them onto Sisi so they can ignore all the feedback about it there before sending it off to TQ unchanged, like they nearly always seems to do.  |

Kane Fenris
NWP
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:15:00 -
[4049] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:TehCloud wrote: Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.
as i understand it you can not move but you can align If you aren't moving then there is no difference in align time based on direction of your align.
there is....
you can use mjd after mjd finished you are at 100% speed if you were already alinged and can warp instantly this would not work if you could not alingn while not moveing |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:23:00 -
[4050] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:How often is this going to be 1v1? The local tank won't mean much when the ship is completely neuted and can't receive RR. Dual XLASB fits are going to be harder to crack but not impossible. PVP is rarely fought evenly in this game so you can't balance on 1v1 only. You can get around neuting with NOS in the highs and a Cap Booster. Plus, as you said, this game is rarely 1v1 only which makes the 1v1 vs a Mach example even more irrelevant. TheFace Asano wrote:In PVE you barely need a tank once your dps is high enough. When your energy skills are high enough even cap boosters start becoming less necessary as well (or cap re-chargers). All the battleships dps cap at around 1 -1.2k (minus the Gallente ships). Your not going to get more performance out of tank at this point, your performance is limited by DPS. I can't personally get better isk / hour than in a cruise CNR with Fury / Precisions. 1x Rigor rig and a single TP on a BS and your pretty much maxed on applied damage. A second TP only helps with Frigs / Cruisers, and then its really not a big difference. The Golem is not going to do more damage than the CNR within either of these proposals without using torps and increasing rigor rigs and using multiple tps. There is no Pirate ship that will do more dps either, unlike the Mach within the Minmatar lines Tempest Fleet and Maelstrom. Most of the other BS in Faction and Pirate can field 3-5 Sentry drones, which will increase damage over the currently proposed Marauders because of their direct lack of BS sized drone bays. I really don't personally like drones, so make the racial weapon system higher damage than the rest of the BS while keeping drone damage low or utility based and keeping a focused difference in what the ship is. They should be the gunships (or missile) of sub-cap ships, owning damage, application and projection, and let the faction / pirate ships be faster and more drones / options for fitting / better buffer setups. This example is somewhat specific to missile ships though, which generally have better damage application in missions than turret based ships. For turreted ships how well you apply your DPS is just as important as your tank or your overall DPS is. For example in Incursion Vanguard sites a Blaster fit Rokh actually does equal DPS to a Megathron at the ranges the incursion rats orbit at and can project its DPS much further as the ships are coming in making it an overall slightly better ship despite having lower maximum DPS. It doesn't make sense to give Pirate Battleships more tank since these are already tank focused ships and T2 resists of any sort are going to represent a pretty big advantage in that respect. Plus a combination of top tier DPS with damage application and projection would be, to put it mildly, a bit over-powered. Every ship in Eve trades raw DPS for application in its bonuses, there's no reason that these should be an exception. TheFace Asano wrote:I don't know what direction CCP is going take past this, but I bet they are testing both on the internal servers and maybe a few other ideas. Maybe there is something else going on with the winter expansion that these marauders mesh well with we don't know about. Maybe we will find out next week. Well, Black-Ops Battleships are on the block as well, as are EWar Frigates and then Pirate Ships after that. It's possible but somewhat unlikely that they may try and tackle all four (Marauders, Black-Ops, EAFs, and Pirate Ships) for the Winter expansion but it's pretty likely that they have at least some idea of where the other Battleship hulls are going that they've been balancing around. Shivanthar wrote:Trying to nullify my point won't affect anyone in a good way. You clearly don't see my point in this.
Want a raider ship that can become stationary 100km away? Go ahead with dominix and sentry drones already. Same barn, different color.
Want to snipe in a stationary Marauder? How unique it is... *Claps* There is a maelstrom for that, put 8x1400, mjd away, done.
What I simply proposed is, when changed, it is much unique for a marauder to be able to go faster. There is no BS for this, as far as I know. A group of Marauders with this bonus will become *much* unique than any other thing. People really want stationary sniper as a T2 unique role? *Sigh*
Well, I've been using marauders for missioning. I also have Typhoon fleet issue where I can put some sentries, mjd away and do my mission. What will be the unique difference between these two? Let me tell you, since my TFI is AT, I can easly fit it with a mwd or AB, which lets me salvage faster than a marauder (supported with salvage drones).
Edit: Not only this idea supports pvp, it will also make pve very enjoying.
Anyone couldn't see my point? Someone? Actually the Black Ops Battleships and the two most popular Pirate Battleships are quite fast. Black-Ops have bonuses to agility and speed already and the Macheriel and Vindicator are two of the fastest Battleships in the game and the Bhaalgorn, for an Amarr armor tanked ship, is no slouch either. It seems more likely that the Black-Ops will be faster and more maneuverable T2 Battleships and that the Pirate Battleships will end up as some sort of Attack/Combat Battleship hybrid with good all around stats.
|
|

Kenpo
61st Angry Angels
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:28:00 -
[4051] - Quote
Heh a wild thought popped into my head, why not give the maurader 15 high slots, 4 large, 4 medium, 4 small, and 3 utility. The other eight slots are only available in Bastion mode. You activate Bastion mode and the medium and small turret/launchers are now available and fitted with the appropriate guns/missile launchers to handle frigates and cruisers, while the big guns/launchers take on battleships. The extra high slots are only available in Bastion mode, if you are not in Bastion mode you get your standard 7. Yeah I know, the "but it will be overpowered" crowd will be screaming. If anything make it 2 large, 2 medium, 2 small, and 2 utility, give the turret/launchers xxx% damage bonus 
What I never understood was why battleships in this game are so gimped on weapon variety/loadout. I mean look at the old naval battleships, they had primary guns consisting of 9 breach loading 16in(406 mm)/50-caliber Mark 7 Naval guns, secondary batteries consisting of 10 dual purpose Mark 28, Mod 2 twin gun mounts, and anti-aircraft batteries. 80's modernization saw the removal fo those AA batteries replaced with a phalanx system along wtih surface to surface missiles. How come this game is lacking that kind of variety for weapon loadouts after 10 years? Battleships should be feared, and rightly so. Bah I should stop ranting now LOL. Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment. |

JetCord
People of Random Nature
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:30:00 -
[4052] - Quote
hmm now all the marauder look generic with almost the same skill bonus , making the choice of which marauder to depending on which large weapon system you manage to get to T2
my hope is that:
the bastion mode with give a bonus depending on what racial marauder that it is fitted into (or you could make a racial bastion modules - more things for industrial to build)
paladin - cap regen bonus and local rep bonus
golem - increase max shield capacity and resist bonus
kronos - ROF bonus and cap regen bonus
vargur - increase max shield bonus and shield boost bonus
give the bastion a role bonus - 5% per level to reduction in overheating damage to mod
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 14:34:00 -
[4053] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Yes, this was my point :)
I did some calculations. Since it is early morning right now, my head hasn't booted up fully yet. But as far as mjd travel time/time spend ratio goes on @ lvl 5, creating a bonus to increase MWD bonus by %1000 and including some agility after transforming into "X mode", does what ccp's design wants to do on Marauders anyway.
MJD @ lvl 5, posts you to 100km in 6 seconds which is something ~14000 meters/sec
My test is on Vargur, so it goes with 163m/s raw speed and 1138 m/s with mwd @ lvl 5. In order to make that 1138 close to 14000, boosting mwd speed bonus by %1000 does the trick. But agility is also needed to fully get that potential. Cut the mwd cycle time and cap usage in somewhere half, so it is now more controllable. During X mode, since vargur's weapon systems are working half, damage output is halved and internal tracking is not working well on that speed so tracking is also halved.
What this does? pve: tons of cool stuff, very enjoying mission running. pvp: during fleet battles, ppl need to think twice on getting their ally pilots' wrecks faster, look WHO is coming to maraud those wrecks. Including its cargo bay size, now, I call this as a unique role for marauders on the battlefield.
Becoming a perfect raider for wrecks, in-game description for marauders now become a reality: "... Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines."
See?
Just brainstorming ;) I'm going to assume you mean a +1000% velocity bonus, aka multiplying the current velocity bonus of ~500-615% by three rather than multiplying it by 10... Oh, no, wait you really meant 1000% increase. Okay then... The ways this can be abused are too many to name but I'm going to list off the ones that come to mind immediately:
- Hilariously abuse-able bump ship.
- Uncatchable kiting Battleship
- Able to almost completely ignore bubbles unless scrammed and use of the MWD + cloak trick means that the ship will likely be out of the bubble in one cycle anyway.
Seriously, not in any way balanced. There's a reason we have a MJD on a cooldown instead of a hilariously oversized MWD module.
I got your point. However;
Hilariously abuse-able bump ship. - No agility at that speed will turn you well towards your moving target. Even if so, I wouldn't mind paying billions of isk to do so for a special ability.
Uncatchable kiting Battleship - kite for what? Since damage and tracking is halved, there is no way he is shooting back to you. Increasing mwd cap usage to nullify its 3th or 4th cycle will make it stop @ 40-50km away, you need to use cap boosters to compansate until 6th or 7th cycle, which sends its pilot to 100km. There is very small to no difference between MjD and bonused MWD.
Able to almost completely ignore bubbles unless scrammed and use of the MWD + cloak... - You're missing the part that it needs to transform first...
"Oh, no, wait you really meant 1000% increase. Okay then..." It will put you at the same speed of mjd travel/time. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:17:00 -
[4054] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote:In granting it the ability rep others in bastion mode, instead of an ewar immunity, maybe it should increase the sensor strength and lock range.
No. The ewar immunity is fine. It will allow the marauder to be the only mission/plex/anom ship able to tear through enemies without worrying about TD/damp/ecm.
Serpentis : The Blockade, The Assault, without damp : amazing Guristas : No lock loss : amazing Sansha/Blood : No TD : amazing
Don't ruin it for the sole purpose of a PvP ship you'll almost never get out of its station because of its price tag, please. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
455
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:30:00 -
[4055] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Metal Icarus wrote:In granting it the ability rep others in bastion mode, instead of an ewar immunity, maybe it should increase the sensor strength and lock range. No. The ewar immunity is fine. It will allow the marauder to be the only mission/plex/anom ship able to tear through enemies without worrying about TD/damp/ecm. Serpentis : The Blockade, The Assault, without damp : amazing Guristas : No lock loss : amazing Sansha/Blood : No TD : amazing Don't ruin it for the sole purpose of a PvP ship you'll almost never get out of its station because of its price tag, please.
I also feel that cap war immunity is a necessity, as these ships already suck on cap usage. This would go a long way for these ships, and would really help the Paladin, who has to deal with cap war NPCs.
Edit. I feel this is balanced, as these ships can't receive cap transfer while Bastioned either. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
464
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:37:00 -
[4056] - Quote
Can't say it often enough, with the latest iteraten (a.k.a. almost a webbing ship). the EWAR immunity in bastion mode is the only thing that makes the marauder halfway interesting.
I personally liked the first iteration of the marauder better, but I guess that's up to preference and what you want to do with it (I still won't believe that's totally useless in incursions, but whatever) and most importantly which marauder you fly.
If CCP is hell bent on keeping that web bonus, so be it, I might even fit one webber just for the giggles.
Actually, let me clarify my first sentence a bit: Right now the EWAR immunity is the only thing that makes the bastion module interesting.
Yup, EWAR immunity makes the bastion module interesting, not the marauder itself.
In that regards I'd (given the opportunity) even vote for making the bastion module available for all battleships and assign a whole new role to the marauder, might be more interesting than the "every marauder is the same now" update.
I've read some interesting ideas lately:
Maraduers with bubble immunity and faster lock time for e.g.
EDIT: The mining Marauder... that made me laugh so hard, I'd vote for that just to read the comments if CCP did that. 
Marauders as they are now but with some skill level depended bonus on bastion modules (presuming the bastion module would be available for all battleships).
Stuff like that, nothing to outlandish but still doable. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 16:03:00 -
[4057] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I lol'd at this. If you are trolling I applaud you. Otherwise you should reconsider the viability of your mission fits / general mission strategy. Frigs are not a big deal on marauders / mission runner toons. Again, most r no more than 1 volley, some r 2, and very very few are actually r required to be killed by drones even on turret based marauder hulls. Also, additional lol for whining about cruisers.
The lvl 4 missions I can think of off the top of my head are Buzz Kill and maybe room 1 of Vengeance. Both r no trouble not only to complete, but steamroll.
Concerning your point about tank, even without significantly sacrificing dps for tank when fitting (by this I mean a potential additional dmg / dmg app mod offers so little it might as well be replaced with a tanking mod), your tank is still enough to handle all 4s. On missions which can break your tank, they won't b/c of your gank. This also contributes to the support of a direct dmg inc over dmg application.
Might I ask you to post your marauder mission fit?
If possible please post a fit to back this up. To put it rather bluntly this doesn't match my experiences for many missions at least for a predominantly T2 fitted ship.
Certainly some missions are fairly light on frigates and cruisers but many are not. Buzz Kill isn't even particularly heavy on overall ship numbers and they spawn in relatively small waves.
A small list of missions that come to mind:
- Anything with Rogue Drones, these tend to be about 2/3rds frigates and cruisers by ship volume.
- Mordu's Headhunters - This one probably has the majority of EHP in the mission in the form of various frigates and cruisers. They spawn at fairly long range which makes additional damage projection desirable and the number means that anything letting you consistently one-shot them decreases completion time noticeably.
- The Assault has, at the least, an appreciable number of frigates and cruisers.
- The Blockade - Again, distant spawns but a large proportion of frigates and cruisers.
- Silence the Informant - Has a good number of frigates and cruisers and drops several of them right on top of you in a few of the pockets.
In general anything that lets you pop frigates and cruisers in fewer shots will shave a noticeable amount off your completion time, whether it's because of improved tracking or because of increased range letting you use higher damage ammunition.
Tlat Ij wrote:I am, unfortunately, not as optimistic as you are. From the past threads i have read, once CCP goes silent that seems to be what ends up on TQ. And sure, the winter expansion may be ~3months out, but that just gives CCP long enough to finish up the new art/models and toss them onto Sisi so they can ignore all the feedback about it there before sending it off to TQ unchanged, like they nearly always seems to do. 
I think you may be reading a different FaID Forum than the rest of us. Yes, if they go silent right before an expansion that generally means things are finalized, that's sort of to be expected since they're going to be working on final polish and pushing things live. This is months out though and our last word was "we'll have more for you later but nothing new for a bit".
I don't know how you're getting "this is what's going to Live" from that... 
Kane Fenris wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:If you aren't moving then there is no difference in align time based on direction of your align. there is.... you can use mjd after mjd finished you are at 100% speed if you were already alinged and can warp instantly this would not work if you could not alingn while not moveing
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Some of this is inaccurate though. The MJD does not place you at your destination at 100% speed it places you there at whatever speed you were at when the jump occurred.
Also there is no difference in align time to any point if you are moving at 0 meters per second. This can be easily confirmed by jumping through a gate and then aligning in a random direction and timing the warp with a stop watch. Variance of ~1 second is expected due to server ticks and communication lag. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 16:10:00 -
[4058] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Even with turret ships your only going to have so many options before diminishing returns makes your gain so small that it makes little or no difference. My toon with a mach has 1200 or so dps with tech 1 gardes and Tech 2 Gyros. Armor tanked it has 3x gyros. A fourth would be workable, it just doesn't add enough dps to argue using it and with a burst aerator in the rig slot diminishing returns have you pretty capped 3x republic fleet gyros would add some dps, and I will add them sometime maybe. It has 2x tracking computers as well, and again adding a third does little to applied dps with diminishing returns unless you add a tracking script and 2x optimal scripts. Personally I just use an afterburner to speed to target if need as the thing is faster than most battlecruisers and some cruisers. People faction / deadspace / officer fit to squeeze out that little extra dps, but it really only means much in long term isk building for PVE. PVP you will have more of a cookie cutter build with tech 2 mods. 1 billion for the hull and another couple hundred million for modules is more than most will spend to pvp at all, and then your not able to min/max because of isk limitation.
Hull bonuses aren't stacking penalized though, for one, and for two you already concocted a situation where additional slots for tracking would be useful.
Besides a fourth Gyro could free up that rig slot for cap regen, speed, or something else entirely.
TheFace Asano wrote:Honestly my kids in the background who are always needing something deter from that extra little performance from being realized anyway. There are other external factors to take in as well, but unless your a robot your probably going to make a mistake, look away from the screen for a few minutes or seconds and miss reactivation of a module losing all that min/max anyway.
This is a logical fallacy. If that happens you're going to lose the same amount of time to it regardless of how min-maxed your fit is which means the better option still shows gains, they just may represent a smaller percent gain due to the time spent getting a toddler off the top of the Fridge or something of the sort.
TheFace Asano wrote:A meaningful amount of extra damage through bastion makes sense. I haven't seen a valid arguement for the isk / sp investment these ships take as to why they shouldn't have more dps than everything else other than "CCP said so".
If the existing arguments don't convince you that it's a bad idea then just about nothing I can say is going to. The best I can say is that from a game design perspective CCP are entirely correct in wanting to prevent power-creep and sticking to the T2=specialization framework since this prevents overall power-creep.
Overall having great DPS, tank, and damage application/projection on one ship is just going to turn it into a god battleship that everyone needs to have if they want to be the best. That's not what T2 is supposed to represent. No ship in Eve should have a combination like that. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 16:15:00 -
[4059] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:I got your point. However;
Hilariously abuse-able bump ship. - No agility at that speed will turn you well towards your moving target. Even if so, I wouldn't mind paying billions of isk to do so for a special ability.
Agility is relative, at that speed your target is going to have a hard time dodging and things like Freighters and other capital or "pseudo-capital" class ships can't dodge something going that fast.
Shivanthar wrote: Uncatchable kiting Battleship - kite for what? Since damage and tracking is halved, there is no way he is shooting back to you. Increasing mwd cap usage to nullify its 3th or 4th cycle will make it stop @ 40-50km away, you need to use cap boosters to compansate until 6th or 7th cycle, which sends its pilot to 100km. There is very small to no difference between MjD and bonused MWD.
Able to almost completely ignore bubbles unless scrammed and use of the MWD + cloak... - You're missing the part that it needs to transform first...
None of that was mentioned in the post I quoted. Plus you could potentially use a faction MWD and/or cap transfers to get around the entire cap drain problem and then you're back to god kiting.
Shivanthar wrote:"Oh, no, wait you really meant 1000% increase. Okay then..." It will put you at the same speed of mjd travel/time.
But with no cooldown and far more potential for edge-case scenarios where it creates a broken set of mechanics.
Overall you're not making any sort of coherent case of why this is a better idea than the existing MJD bonus beyond "I think this is cooler" and there are plenty of reasons not to go with this over an MJD bonus. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 16:48:00 -
[4060] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Metal Icarus wrote:In granting it the ability rep others in bastion mode, instead of an ewar immunity, maybe it should increase the sensor strength and lock range. No. The ewar immunity is fine. It will allow the marauder to be the only mission/plex/anom ship able to tear through enemies without worrying about TD/damp/ecm. Serpentis : The Blockade, The Assault, without damp : amazing Guristas : No lock loss : amazing Sansha/Blood : No TD : amazing Don't ruin it for the sole purpose of a PvP ship you'll almost never get out of its station because of its price tag, please. I also feel that cap war immunity is a necessity, as these ships already suck on cap usage. This would go a long way for these ships, and would really help the Paladin, who has to deal with cap war NPCs. Edit. I feel this is balanced, as these ships can't receive cap transfer while Bastioned either.
The Paladin as currently spoiled has 12,500 base capacitor. It really doesn't need much help in this area. |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 17:07:00 -
[4061] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Even with turret ships your only going to have so many options before diminishing returns makes your gain so small that it makes little or no difference. My toon with a mach has 1200 or so dps with tech 1 gardes and Tech 2 Gyros. Armor tanked it has 3x gyros. A fourth would be workable, it just doesn't add enough dps to argue using it and with a burst aerator in the rig slot diminishing returns have you pretty capped 3x republic fleet gyros would add some dps, and I will add them sometime maybe. It has 2x tracking computers as well, and again adding a third does little to applied dps with diminishing returns unless you add a tracking script and 2x optimal scripts. Personally I just use an afterburner to speed to target if need as the thing is faster than most battlecruisers and some cruisers. People faction / deadspace / officer fit to squeeze out that little extra dps, but it really only means much in long term isk building for PVE. PVP you will have more of a cookie cutter build with tech 2 mods. 1 billion for the hull and another couple hundred million for modules is more than most will spend to pvp at all, and then your not able to min/max because of isk limitation. Hull bonuses aren't stacking penalized though, for one, and for two you already concocted a situation where additional slots for tracking would be useful. Besides a fourth Gyro could free up that rig slot for cap regen, speed, or something else entirely.
You can swap a script for up close, the optimal is pretty useless up close anyway. The fourth gyro would replace tank, and I do sometimes depending on the situation. It makes a small difference at most, very small. I usually rig 2x tank 1x damage (or tracking) depending on the ship.
Cade Windstalker wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:A meaningful amount of extra damage through bastion makes sense. I haven't seen a valid arguement for the isk / sp investment these ships take as to why they shouldn't have more dps than everything else other than "CCP said so". If the existing arguments don't convince you that it's a bad idea then just about nothing I can say is going to. The best I can say is that from a game design perspective CCP are entirely correct in wanting to prevent power-creep and sticking to the T2=specialization framework since this prevents overall power-creep. Overall having great DPS, tank, and damage application/projection on one ship is just going to turn it into a god battleship that everyone needs to have if they want to be the best. That's not what T2 is supposed to represent. No ship in Eve should have a combination like that.
It would only be power creep if it was outside Bastion Mode. Bastion Mode, like Siege mode, has drawbacks. I am not promoting any damage increase outside of the mode, only inside Bastion Mode. Again make the drawbacks more severe, just make the mode worth the risk of a 1 billion+ isk ship being locked in place for a minute and not being able to dock or jump system for another minute past that.
The class has several key drawbacks. First they require a ton of SP to fly. Second is the hull and mod pricetag. This limits them in pvp use without anything else. Lets say they can do 2 battleships worth of dps in Bastion Mode. Your still at an exponential isk pricetag for a standard T1 Battleship (lets say a modest 250 million for hull and fittings to pvp in). Thats around 5 times more isk for twice the damage performance. T2 HACs can do 20-50 percent more damage than their T1 counterparts......
For MIn/Maxing the percentage will be measured in long periods of time, not the short term. The Bastion Module should give a large gain in the short term for it's large downsides. This should be true for both PVE and PVP applications. Anything else is really not worth locking yourself in place for bombers to easily hot drop you. We can figure how many bombers it would take to easily one-shot any one of these marauders, as the reps will make little to no difference in that scenario....
I am also going to ask for what fit you have that is having a hard time with frigs or cruisers in missions. Outside of them getting under your guns, drones are "usually" not needed. With precision cruise, even elite frigs will die within a volley or 2 at any range. 5 hobgoblin 2's are enough to quickly make work of those that are close, and you should be able to tank a whole mess of them with a single shield boost or armor rep for quite a long time. On my other toon I use Auto cannons, blasters, rails and arties. They all work well at killing frigs at mostly 15k or more. Autocannons its more like 6k or under. 1400 Arties will one-two shot most cruisers at all ranges down to 15k or so and one shot frigs at ranges above 25k or so. Swapping scripts on TC's will improve this. I also use sentry drones to take out frigs. 3-4x unbonused sentries will make pretty quick work of a frig down to 15k. Using a MJD once in a while will help you pull away from them on long range gun fits. Cruise ships don't need one usually because the precisions make quick work of them no matter the range. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 18:01:00 -
[4062] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I lol'd at this. If you are trolling I applaud you. Otherwise you should reconsider the viability of your mission fits / general mission strategy. Frigs are not a big deal on marauders / mission runner toons. Again, most r no more than 1 volley, some r 2, and very very few are actually r required to be killed by drones even on turret based marauder hulls. Also, additional lol for whining about cruisers.
The lvl 4 missions I can think of off the top of my head are Buzz Kill and maybe room 1 of Vengeance. Both r no trouble not only to complete, but steamroll.
Concerning your point about tank, even without significantly sacrificing dps for tank when fitting (by this I mean a potential additional dmg / dmg app mod offers so little it might as well be replaced with a tanking mod), your tank is still enough to handle all 4s. On missions which can break your tank, they won't b/c of your gank. This also contributes to the support of a direct dmg inc over dmg application.
Might I ask you to post your marauder mission fit? If possible please post a fit to back this up. To put it rather bluntly this doesn't match my experiences for many missions at least for a predominantly T2 fitted ship. Certainly some missions are fairly light on frigates and cruisers but many are not. Buzz Kill isn't even particularly heavy on overall ship numbers and they spawn in relatively small waves. A small list of missions that come to mind:
- Anything with Rogue Drones, these tend to be about 2/3rds frigates and cruisers by ship volume.
- Mordu's Headhunters - This one probably has the majority of EHP in the mission in the form of various frigates and cruisers. They spawn at fairly long range which makes additional damage projection desirable and the number means that anything letting you consistently one-shot them decreases completion time noticeably.
- The Assault has, at the least, an appreciable number of frigates and cruisers.
- The Blockade - Again, distant spawns but a large proportion of frigates and cruisers.
- Silence the Informant - Has a good number of frigates and cruisers and drops several of them right on top of you in a few of the pockets.
In general anything that lets you pop frigates and cruisers in fewer shots will shave a noticeable amount off your completion time, whether it's because of improved tracking or because of increased range letting you use higher damage ammunition.
lol, just lol. I will no longer be replying to your posts. You remind me of little kids going not knowing the definition of a word and saying things like "I know what it means, im just not going to tell you". To be fair, I was going to try to help you with applications probs you are having..... and i cant believe you are still whining about dmg application to cruisers... *troll suspicions rising*
w/o giving my full fit info, an 800mm II vargur with 2 tracking computers (w/ tracking scripts on small that is close) and 1 tracking enhancer is what I used for application.
Of all rogue drone missions that I can think of off the top of my head, the only one where frigs have a chance of getting under your guns is the one with the mother drone.... the gate unlocks after you kill it. I dont see why anyone would want to kill these to begin with. It isnt worth the time and wont be worth the time no matter the dmg application bonuses, just blitz it lol. You gain nearly nothing for killing them. (for the record I can kill all the frigs with little trouble on this one so long I as dont approach the gate/wait at the gate, the cruisers are at best a minor nuisance on the maelstrom but no trouble on the vargur as the quicker ones dont have as good of a tank as the rest, so the vargur can pop the quick ones in a full volley with autocannons. even so, on the maelstrom you can still get them easily, start shooting at stuff you know you can hit while aligning the proper direction, once angular is low enough, pop it. rinse and repeat). If you dont align for angular, dont cry about dmg application on the forums.
I cannot take you seriously anymore. I nearly died you when you said mentioned mordu's headhunters xD *further increasing troll suspicion*. If you have problems with this one, you have done something wrong. If not the fit, then target priority / general clear strategy. It will take more than just a dmg application bonus to help you on this mission if you are having probs... cannot believe you said buzz kill is not a problem, then listed headhunters xD.
The assault. To give you a little credit, there are frigs that sometimes get under your guns and like to attack your drones.... to take all that credit back, whether this guristas or serp, there are only like 2-4 frigs that are capable of this and plenty of other stuff to shoot while you drones deal with them. dmg application would not speed up the progress of this mission. It's not like they're are going to hamper you from getting to a gate. Having the frigs come in close is also nice cause ur drone dps stays relatively constant and you dont waste alot of drone dps by having them travel from target to target.
The Blockade.... I am now convinced of your trollery
Silence the Informant, come on man, this joke got old 4 missions ago... Not only are they easily killed... but you dont need to kill them, even if they web you you can just tractor the mission item. "but but what about loot and salvage!!!"... its full of frigs and you can loot and salvage the BS's on the marauder with no trouble.. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
455
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 18:34:00 -
[4063] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Metal Icarus wrote:In granting it the ability rep others in bastion mode, instead of an ewar immunity, maybe it should increase the sensor strength and lock range. No. The ewar immunity is fine. It will allow the marauder to be the only mission/plex/anom ship able to tear through enemies without worrying about TD/damp/ecm. Serpentis : The Blockade, The Assault, without damp : amazing Guristas : No lock loss : amazing Sansha/Blood : No TD : amazing Don't ruin it for the sole purpose of a PvP ship you'll almost never get out of its station because of its price tag, please. I also feel that cap war immunity is a necessity, as these ships already suck on cap usage. This would go a long way for these ships, and would really help the Paladin, who has to deal with cap war NPCs. Edit. I feel this is balanced, as these ships can't receive cap transfer while Bastioned either. The Paladin as currently spoiled has 12,500 base capacitor. It really doesn't need much help in this area.
The Golem does... It has terrible cap, even after you consider the weapons don't use cap. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 18:54:00 -
[4064] - Quote
What do you think about replacing the 100% rep bonus with just 50% non-stacked resistance? It would be the same as +100% reps, but fix issues with having to get down to low shields/armour before repping if you have very bonused reps. it would also double the EHP which would help stop them being massive gank targets in Bastion due to the strangely low HP. And the resistance increasing logi effectiveness wouldn't be a problem since they can't be remote repped. It could also make hull tanking viable if the resistance buff is applied to hull as well :) or just mean you dont need a DCU. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
457
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 19:06:00 -
[4065] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:What do you think about replacing the 100% rep bonus with just 50% non-stacked resistance? It would be the same as +100% reps, but fix issues with having to get down to low shields/armour before repping if you have very bonused reps. it would also double the EHP which would help stop them being massive gank targets in Bastion due to the strangely low HP. And the resistance increasing logi effectiveness wouldn't be a problem since they can't be remote repped. It could also make hull tanking viable if the resistance buff is applied to hull as well :) or just mean you dont need a DCU.
This would also help to reduce the amount of cap usage, which I keep stating the Golem suffers with.
This is the initial reason why I preferred iteration 1 over 2. More resist means less boosting, which means less cap dependancy. |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 21:42:00 -
[4066] - Quote
i'll ask again.
Does anybody know if the range bonus (25%) extends to all modules? ie disruptors, webs etc? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 21:54:00 -
[4067] - Quote
please delete this post, session timeout ruined my day :) |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 22:36:00 -
[4068] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: Overall you're not making any sort of coherent case of why this is a better idea than the existing MJD bonus beyond "I think this is cooler" and there are plenty of reasons not to go with this over an MJD bonus.
First and foremost, I've been running missions with my Vargur, for last 3 years, all the time. Insta pops everything, tear things apart, you know the stuff.
Second, I sometimes use my drone fit TFI to do some MJD fantasy, if I ever need to. With this setup, solo worlds collide is a joke.
Third, on my way getting to Vargur, I used arty fit Maelstrom for 1-whole-year. Which means 8x1400 guns. That was a nice and big ship, I can't deny it.
Why am I telling these? Because I'm talking and making judgements based on what I've played with most. I'm not just brainstorming about something I'm not using, or not something I've been using once in a while.
Basic circumstances; - My Vargur tears things apart. I'm in fully support on chaosgrimm here, since I experience exactly same stuff he describes. Two-shotting frigs if not one shot, 2-3 shotting cruisers, 10 shotting BS'. With faction guns and T1 ammo*
- This ship is designed to SOLO missions, I'm not telling this, it shows itself if you decide to fly one. By SOLO, I mean SOLO everything, from NPC to Salvaging wrecks, negating a need for a noctis.
- This ship's common fight range is 12-60km with usual fittings. You can shoot further foes, but everything will take longer time.
- For this reason, all wrecks are ordered in front of you, from 60-70km insta-popped guys to hard-shelled bs' wrecks towards you. I like to salvage every little thing, that is my enjoyment, because I make my own rigs with those salvaged wreck materials.
- For those missions where wrecks are seperated, you would need to control your distance and location travelled. This is main reason mjd doesn't fit to this ships role.
- This ship is designed to take damage, which means it is designed for front-line pve fights. Why? One must see its shield boost bonus. It really works and there is a reason for it to be there.
- Fitting a MWD, I need to take out so much dps and some tank that gives me hell for it. I don't enjoy Vargur that way, so I always fit AB. MJD with any of these is out of question.
So; - Why would I want to be a sniper with this ship? This is a solo mission runner and salvager. If I become a very powerful sniper @ 100km range, then everything will be torn apart on its place, without a chance to gather and come towards me. This also means I need to crawl at least two-three times with my 162 meters/second speed towards wrecks. Not very nice. And this also boosts a common problem of Marauders (tractor beam range)
- In Pve, with a marauder, why would I want to go 100km away? As I said, I have a TFI for it, if I want to stay stationary, I would bring my TFI with sentries, and shoot npcs in that way.
- This ship is intented to be a salvager at the same time. What I proposed was not because "it would be cool" stuff, but because I think it would be more logical for a Marauder to be a wreck stealer during fleet battles rather than a MJD'ing sniper. Heck, I can even fit a fly-by thrasher that can shoot from 100km... Why another ship?
- Of course noone has to like it, or even might find my proposal silly, but I must say that I play with this toy everyday. And last thing it needs is to become a stationary sniper. Mini-dread? Just because it is assembled in an adv. assembly array in 0.0, some "people" decided to find a cheaper replacement for their dreads and that is adding a sniping role to a Marauder? STATIONARY?
- Anyone can count a list of possible exploits to any proposal, I can understand that. I'm not a game designer anyway. But my eveyday-played-toy shouldn't meant to be this. This is NOT THAT SHIP. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
349
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 23:33:00 -
[4069] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Can't say it often enough, with the latest iteration (a.k.a. almost a webbing ship) the EWAR immunity in bastion mode is the only thing that makes the marauder halfway interesting. I personally liked the first iteration of the marauder better, but I guess that's up to preference and what you want to do with it (I still won't believe that it's totally useless in incursions, but whatever) and most importantly which marauder you fly. If CCP is hell bent on keeping that web bonus, so be it, I might even fit one webber just for the giggles. Actually, let me clarify my first sentence a bit: Right now the EWAR immunity is the only thing that makes the bastion module interesting.Yup, EWAR immunity makes the bastion module interesting, not the marauder itself. In that regards I'd (given the opportunity) even vote for making the bastion module available for all battleships and assign a whole new role to the marauder, might be more interesting than the "every marauder is the same now" update. I've read some interesting ideas lately: Maraduers with bubble immunity and faster lock time for e.g. EDIT: The mining Marauder... that made me laugh so hard, I'd vote for that just to read the comments if CCP did that.  Marauders as they are now but with some skill level depended bonus on bastion modules (presuming the bastion module would be available for all battleships). Stuff like that, nothing to outlandish but still interesting.
exactly, they don't really need extra tank (okay that shield boost bonus probably means I can shield tank my kronos and/or paladin if I really wanted to), and for the most part are pretty far into diminishing returns on any other bonus.
pretty much everything else is meh. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Zoe Israfil
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 23:54:00 -
[4070] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:i'll ask again.
Does anybody know if the range bonus (25%) extends to all modules? ie disruptors, webs etc?
The range bonus ONLY applies to Turret / Missile modules. NOTHING ELSE. Further the +5 optimal and +5 falloff provide mathematically the same bonus as the single +5% missile velocity due to how each functions. |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
157

|
Posted - 2013.09.24 03:48:00 -
[4071] - Quote
A post was removed for ranting, bypassing the profanity filter, and personal attacks.
Forum rules. ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
200
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 04:04:00 -
[4072] - Quote
"Unliking" due to the lack of CCP response. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 05:13:00 -
[4073] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:I think you may be reading a different FaID Forum than the rest of us. Yes, if they go silent right before an expansion that generally means things are finalized, that's sort of to be expected since they're going to be working on final polish and pushing things live. This is months out though and our last word was "we'll have more for you later but nothing new for a bit". I don't know how you're getting "this is what's going to Live" from that...  Judging from past threads while CCP is reviewing/testing things they respond to the threads, once they stop responding (last CCP post here is #2721 from CCP Rise nearly 3 weeks back) that seems to be what gets put on Sisi and once something is put on Sisi they seem to ignore most feedback and it gets put on TQ with very few, if any changes from the Sisi version.
And yes the expansion is probably ~2.5-3 months away but the according to CCP Ytterbium they want public testing before they finalize things and given their track record on changing things in response to feedback from Sisi that would mean that the new marauders would need to be on Sisi soon (not SoonGäó) or else they simply won't have time to make any changes before it goes to TQ, especially since they still have to do artwork for the new ships. |

valdo ryia
Imperial Marshland Estate
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 05:21:00 -
[4074] - Quote
i'd just like the say in light of all the negative comments i absolutely love the changes its absolutely everything i want for my paladin. more cap, more power, more range, more repping, more mobility, more resistances. new bonuses are beautiful and im really excited about the changes. im sure ill miss a bit of the speed loss but im absolutely willing to put up with that. |

RaVeN077
Rock Grinders The Silent One's
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 07:45:00 -
[4075] - Quote
At first I liked the idea. However logically I don't know if it all works well together. The MJD allows you to position yourself where you want, so for some that is on the edge of the fight blapping at long range (at which point the rep bonus is not really needed) or in the middle of the fight where the range bonuses are not needed.
If you want to allow freedom of play styles without tipping too much of an advantage over other battleships, I would propose two different bastion models (of course you could only fit one at a time) one with long range perks such as an optimal range and damage bonus and a close range model with the rep bonus and a tracking perk. It would fall in well with how eve is already constructed with short range and long range weapon and ammo types.
In short the bastion mod should play into the short range game or the long range game and not try and do both. The kitchen sink style of play and fitting never seems to match up to the dedicated fitting or play style. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 09:28:00 -
[4076] - Quote
Tlat Ij wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:I think you may be reading a different FaID Forum than the rest of us. Yes, if they go silent right before an expansion that generally means things are finalized, that's sort of to be expected since they're going to be working on final polish and pushing things live. This is months out though and our last word was "we'll have more for you later but nothing new for a bit". I don't know how you're getting "this is what's going to Live" from that...  Judging from past threads while CCP is reviewing/testing things they respond to the threads, once they stop responding (last CCP post here is #2721 from CCP Rise nearly 3 weeks back) that seems to be what gets put on Sisi and once something is put on Sisi they seem to ignore most feedback and it gets put on TQ with very few, if any changes from the Sisi version. And yes the expansion is probably ~2.5-3 months away but the according to CCP Ytterbium they want public testing before they finalize things and given their track record on changing things in response to feedback from Sisi that would mean that the new marauders would need to be on Sisi soon (not SoonGäó) or else they simply won't have time to make any changes before it goes to TQ, especially since they still have to do artwork for the new ships. Art assets are done, csm has apparently seen one of the transformations, which would lead me to think that this is being driven by some **** cool design as oppose to bastion actually having merit in and of itself,(don't get me wrong, I still want it,) you can kinda see this in the disparity between iterations , "well, its Gota do something" If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 09:40:00 -
[4077] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Silence the Informant, come on man, this joke got old 4 missions ago... Not only are they easily killed... but you dont need to kill them, even if they web you you can just tractor the mission item. "but but what about loot and salvage!!!"... its full of frigs and you can loot and salvage the BS's on the marauder with no trouble..
Are you sure you're a mission runner?
There is no mission item in Silence the Informant. A Rogue Drone pocket, a Mercenary pocket, and then the final one with sentries and a single NPC you have to kill.
And yes, the frigates are pretty annoying in this one (second pocket,a little less in a Vargur), but with the proposed change regarding the MJD, you'll just have to jump, oneshot them, and then jump back. In addition, I've never seen Mercenary Wingmen attack my drones if they were attacking me first. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 10:05:00 -
[4078] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Silence the Informant, come on man, this joke got old 4 missions ago... Not only are they easily killed... but you dont need to kill them, even if they web you you can just tractor the mission item. "but but what about loot and salvage!!!"... its full of frigs and you can loot and salvage the BS's on the marauder with no trouble.. Are you sure you're a mission runner? There is no mission item in Silence the Informant. A Rogue Drone pocket, a Mercenary pocket, and then the final one with sentries and a single NPC you have to kill. And yes, the frigates are pretty annoying in this one (second pocket,a little less in a Vargur), but with the proposed change regarding the MJD, you'll just have to jump, oneshot them, and then jump back. In addition, I've never seen Mercenary Wingmen attack my drones if they were attacking me first.
He might simply be referring to killing the agent and warping out. Talking about one mission after other, crap happens sometimes.
@chaos: man, don't think too fast ;) |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:00:00 -
[4079] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Silence the Informant, come on man, this joke got old 4 missions ago... Not only are they easily killed... but you dont need to kill them, even if they web you you can just tractor the mission item. "but but what about loot and salvage!!!"... its full of frigs and you can loot and salvage the BS's on the marauder with no trouble.. Are you sure you're a mission runner? There is no mission item in Silence the Informant. A Rogue Drone pocket, a Mercenary pocket, and then the final one with sentries and a single NPC you have to kill. And yes, the frigates are pretty annoying in this one (second pocket,a little less in a Vargur), but with the proposed change regarding the MJD, you'll just have to jump, oneshot them, and then jump back. In addition, I've never seen Mercenary Wingmen attack my drones if they were attacking me first. Ah nice catch, memory failed me there was thinking of Stop the Thief for some reason and looting reports off Shadow. I will keep my original opinion though of the web not being needed, plenty of stuff to shoot while ur drones kill frigs. You spawn very close to the gate.
Def agreed on the mjd and one shotting. My point to cade is that dmg app is fine on marauders. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:17:00 -
[4080] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote: @chaos: man, don't think too fast ;)
Haha, thx brah. Went on a rant and confused 2 missions. My bad, my bad xD
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
262
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:35:00 -
[4081] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: You can swap a script for up close, the optimal is pretty useless up close anyway. The fourth gyro would replace tank, and I do sometimes depending on the situation. It makes a small difference at most, very small. I usually rig 2x tank 1x damage (or tracking) depending on the ship.
Unless it lets you use higher damage ammo in which case that extra range can make a big difference in DPS. "Up close" is a fairly ambiguous term and varies wildly based on which weapon system you're referring to.
TheFace Asano wrote:It would only be power creep if it was outside Bastion Mode. Bastion Mode, like Siege mode, has drawbacks. I am not promoting any damage increase outside of the mode, only inside Bastion Mode. Again make the drawbacks more severe, just make the mode worth the risk of a 1 billion+ isk ship being locked in place for a minute and not being able to dock or jump system for another minute past that.
No, any increase in sub-cap DPS is power-creep because no matter what the draw-back is you can find a way to overcome it with fleet support. This is the current problem with "Dread-blapping" where a dreadnaught with support can cycle its guns once and remove an enemy ship from the field.
Plus CCP have repeatedly stated, with good reason, that T2 ships are not supposed to be cost-effective they're supposed to make each individual pilot more effective. If you field a couple billion in HACs and then field that same ISK value in T2 fitted T1 cruisers the HACs are going to lose hilariously. They're also going to be out-numbered about 3 or 4 to 1. If you field 100 pilots in T1 cruiers vs 100 pilots in HACs the HACs are going to clean house and probably barely take losses if there's logi support.
TheFace Asano wrote:The class has several key drawbacks. First they require a ton of SP to fly. Second is the hull and mod pricetag. This limits them in pvp use without anything else. Lets say they can do 2 battleships worth of dps in Bastion Mode. Your still at an exponential isk pricetag for a standard T1 Battleship (lets say a modest 250 million for hull and fittings to pvp in). Thats around 5 times more isk for twice the damage performance. T2 HACs can do 20-50 percent more damage than their T1 counterparts......
First off SP is not a balancing factor, it's just a barrier to entry. That logic was what got us AOE Doomsdays and the game still hasn't found a real and meaningful use for Super Capitals beyond glorified taxi service and interstellar ship slingshot.
The HACs are also something of an exception to the rule of ship specialization and retained their role as essentially beefier T1 hulls only out of momentum and popularity. They also didn't get any particularly special bonuses. The MWD sig radius bonus is nice but not as impressive as some of the other T2 role or hull bonuses.
Plus, again, not cost effective ships even with the extra damage.
TheFace Asano wrote:For MIn/Maxing the percentage will be measured in long periods of time, not the short term. The Bastion Module should give a large gain in the short term for it's large downsides. This should be true for both PVE and PVP applications. Anything else is really not worth locking yourself in place for bombers to easily hot drop you. We can figure how many bombers it would take to easily one-shot any one of these marauders, as the reps will make little to no difference in that scenario....
Bombers are a null-sec only scenario that can be negated by destroying said bombers before the bombs detonate.
In general any sort of steep trade-off is only going to be worth it some of the time. If what you have is an obviously worth-while trade-off then that's not much of a trade-off at all. Dreadnaughts are a perfect example of this. The Siege module is, at best, something to force them to commit to the field, there's no real, meaningful decision there about whether you're going to use the module or not. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
262
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:35:00 -
[4082] - Quote
... post continued due to character limits.
TheFace Asano wrote:I am also going to ask for what fit you have that is having a hard time with frigs or cruisers in missions. Outside of them getting under your guns, drones are "usually" not needed. With precision cruise, even elite frigs will die within a volley or 2 at any range. 5 hobgoblin 2's are enough to quickly make work of those that are close, and you should be able to tank a whole mess of them with a single shield boost or armor rep for quite a long time. On my other toon I use Auto cannons, blasters, rails and arties. They all work well at killing frigs at mostly 15k or more. Autocannons its more like 6k or under. 1400 Arties will one-two shot most cruisers at all ranges down to 15k or so and one shot frigs at ranges above 25k or so. Swapping scripts on TC's will improve this. I also use sentry drones to take out frigs. 3-4x unbonused sentries will make pretty quick work of a frig down to 15k. Using a MJD once in a while will help you pull away from them on long range gun fits. Cruise ships don't need one usually because the precisions make quick work of them no matter the range.
I'm not saying I have a problem with frigates and cruisers, I'm saying that if you can kill them faster you can lower your mission completion time noticeably. Drones can be picked off, especially with the changes to the AI, and quite a few missions have a very high frigate and cruiser count. Since these ships take, generally, fewer than 5 volleys to kill if you catch them coming in then anything that reduces that number of volleys has a high % change in your time to kill that ship.
If you can kill all frigates before they get in range then you don't even need to risk your drones.
I'm not talking about "pretty quick", frigates and cruisers always die "pretty quick" in missions. The question is how many shots that equates to and at what range. My Rail-Rokh can one shot almost all frigates and most cruisers at even 50km since it can push Antimatter out that far and still be in optimal. This requires it to get a very solid hit though and isn't reliable without fitting enough tracking to compromise my tank, and even then there's room for improvement.
I am, overall, far less concerned with Artillery and Cruiser Missiles. Missile ships need damage application mods to really benefit from this though Target Painters and even webs help to some degree. Artillery should be one-shotting almost anything below a BC hull since every cycle from 1400s is almost 15 seconds and they're the highest alpha weapons system. The better question is how much is required to still project damage comfortably on Autocannons which would benefit far more from increased range. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
262
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:36:00 -
[4083] - Quote
Tlat Ij wrote:Judging from past threads while CCP is reviewing/testing things they respond to the threads, once they stop responding (last CCP post here is #2721 from CCP Rise nearly 3 weeks back) that seems to be what gets put on Sisi and once something is put on Sisi they seem to ignore most feedback and it gets put on TQ with very few, if any changes from the Sisi version. And yes the expansion is probably ~2.5-3 months away but the according to CCP Ytterbium they want public testing before they finalize things and given their track record on changing things in response to feedback from Sisi that would mean that the new marauders would need to be on Sisi soon (not SoonGäó) or else they simply won't have time to make any changes before it goes to TQ, especially since they still have to do artwork for the new ships.
You're still not providing any evidence of past threads where this has occurred, especially not this far out from an expansion. Also the versions that tend to hit Sisi tend to not need very much revision once they get to that point. The threads have started to approach consensus with few to no well supported criticisms remaining. Small tweaks generally occur based on Sisi testing but nothing major because the ships are already in a fairly solid state at that point. Consider me unconvinced.
Also the CSM has already commented that they saw an early version of the animations at the CSM summit so work on these has already started if not nearly finished. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:42:00 -
[4084] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:If you aren't moving then there is no difference in align time based on direction of your align. there is.... you can use mjd after mjd finished you are at 100% speed if you were already alinged and can warp instantly this would not work if you could not alingn while not moveing I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Some of this is inaccurate though. The MJD does not place you at your destination at 100% speed it places you there at whatever speed you were at when the jump occurred. Also there is no difference in align time to any point if you are moving at 0 meters per second. This can be easily confirmed by jumping through a gate and then aligning in a random direction and timing the warp with a stop watch. Variance of ~1 second is expected due to server ticks and communication lag.
no im right....
you are : -aligned -at 0m/s
-> hit align then instantly hit mjd you accelerate while mjd cycles mjd triggers -> you are alinged at 100% or near 100% speed (near enough to warp) -> instant warp
so you can align at 0m/s in bastion mode when mode finishes you hit aling and mjd so if you dont get scramed while mjd cycles you always get away! |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
262
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:51:00 -
[4085] - Quote
I've already addressed some things here in another post to another person so I'll be brief on those points.
Shivanthar wrote:First and foremost, I've been running missions with my Vargur, for last 3 years, all the time. Insta pops everything, tear things apart, you know the stuff.
Second, I sometimes use my drone fit TFI to do some MJD fantasy, if I ever need to. With this setup, soloing missions like worlds collide and dread pirate scarlett becomes as easy as a joke.
Third, on my way getting to Vargur, I used arty fit Maelstrom for 1-whole-year. Which means 8x1400 guns. That was a nice and big ship, I can't deny it.
Why am I telling these? Because I'm talking and making judgements based on what I've played with most. I'm not just brainstorming about something I'm not using, or not something I've been using once in a while.
Basic circumstances; - My Vargur tears things apart. I'm in fully support on chaosgrimm here, since I experience exactly same stuff he describes. Two-shotting frigs if not one shot, 2-3 shotting cruisers, 10 shotting BS'. With faction guns and T1 ammo*
- This ship is designed to SOLO missions, I'm not telling this, it shows itself if you decide to fly one. By SOLO, I mean SOLO everything, from NPC to Salvaging wrecks, negating a need for a noctis.
- This ship's common fight range is 12-60km with usual fittings. You can shoot further foes, but everything will take longer time.
As I already touched on Artillery benefits very little from this beyond tracking. If it hits cleanly something dies, but it has a very long cycle time making it very inefficient for killing smaller ships in missions since a lot of the damage is going to be "wasted".
At this point the question is how many shots does it take you with autocannons and what's required to drop, say, one shot per ship off of your kill times with autocannons. With autocannons tracking is far less of an issue. It can still factor but it doesn't matter as much especially outside of web-range. At this point the question is how much DPS can you push how far. Since autocannons fight in falloff every little bit of extra range translates into more damage per shot which can lower your kill times and thus your mission completion time.
Shivanthar wrote:- For this reason, all wrecks are ordered in front of you, from 60-70km insta-popped guys to hard-shelled bs' wrecks towards you. I like to salvage every little thing, that is my enjoyment, because I make my own rigs with those salvaged wreck materials.
- For those missions where wrecks are seperated, you need to control your distance and location travelled. This is the main reason why mjd doesn't fit to this ships role.
- This ship is designed to take damage, which means it is designed for front-line pve fights. Why? One must see its shield boost bonus. It really works and there is a reason for it to be there.
- Fitting a MWD, I need to take out so much dps and some tank that gives me hell for it. I don't enjoy Vargur that way, so I always fit AB. MJD with any of these is out of question.
So; - Why would I want to be a sniper with this ship? This is a solo mission runner and salvager. If I become a very powerful sniper @ 100km range, then everything will be torn apart on its place, without a chance to gather and come towards me. This also means I need to crawl at least two-three times with my 162 meters/second speed towards wrecks. Not very nice. And this also boosts a common problem of Marauders (tractor beam range)
- In Pve, with a marauder, why would I want to go 100km away? As I said, I have a TFI for it, if I want to stay stationary, I would bring my TFI with sentries, and shoot npcs in that way. Instead of training for Marauders, one may simply go with dominix with sentries, which will be much better @ same range, much cheaper @ same role and easier to train in equal time.
- This ship is intented to be a salvager at the same time. What I proposed was not because "it would be cool" stuff, but because I think it would be more logical for a Marauder to be a wreck stealer during fleet battles rather than a MJD'ing sniper. Heck, I can even fit a fly-by thrasher that can shoot from 100km... Why another ship?
- Of course noone has to like it, or even might find my proposal silly, but I must say that I play with this toy everyday. And last thing it needs is to become a stationary sniper. Mini-dread? Just because it is assembled in an adv. assembly array in 0.0, some "people" decided to find a cheaper replacement for their dreads and that is adding a sniping role to a Marauder? STATIONARY?
- Anyone can count a list of possible exploits to any proposal, I can understand that. I'm not a game designer anyway. But my eveyday-played-toy shouldn't meant to be this. This is NOT THAT SHIP.
I prefer killing and salvaging everything as well, though I come in with a noctis after I'm done to clear things up. I find it relaxing rather than managing an extra set of targets while running the mission.
For missions where the rats are further out a MJD is going to server your purposes better than an MWD since you can put yourself within range of a T2 tractor beam with only a single jump. If the range bonus goes up to 150% then that becomes even easier.
With autocannons the range bonus helps you do more damage since you're fighting in falloff even if you somehow have enough tracking that that doesn't factor (in my opinion there's no such thing). This lets you kill things faster within your salvage range.
For Hybrids, which is where most of my experience lies, it lets you use higher damage ammo at longer ranges and achieve a similar effect but with more ammo swapping. Tracking is more of a consideration though, especially inside of Antimatter ranges. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
262
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:54:00 -
[4086] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:no im right....
you are : -aligned -at 0m/s
-> hit align then instantly hit mjd you accelerate while mjd cycles mjd triggers -> you are alinged at 100% or near 100% speed (near enough to warp) -> instant warp
so you can align at 0m/s in bastion mode when mode finishes you hit aling and mjd so if you dont get scramed while mjd cycles you always get away!
Ah, okay, I thought there was a disconnect here. I thought you meant that the module left you at 100% speed.
Also you can't align while your speed is set to 0 m/s. Besides which the facing of your ship does not impact align speed unless your ship is moving.
Therefore the MJD doesn't impact the time it takes you to get into warp, it just allows you to potentially escape a bubble if the people trying to hold you down didn't bring a Warp Scrambler. |

Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
262
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:56:00 -
[4087] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Ah nice catch, memory failed me there was thinking of Stop the Thief for some reason and looting reports off Shadow. I will keep my original opinion on Silence the Informant though of the web not being needed, plenty of stuff to shoot while ur drones kill frigs. You spawn very close to the gate.
Def agreed on the mjd and one shotting. My point to cade is that dmg app is fine on marauders. And lawl I'm pretty sure imma mission runner anyway xD
And my point wasn't that these missions are difficult to complete, just that you can always complete a mission faster.
Personally I've been getting drones chewed up by frigates though, which makes killing them with guns before they get close very attractive from a completion time standpoint. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 12:37:00 -
[4088] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:no im right....
you are : -aligned -at 0m/s
-> hit align then instantly hit mjd you accelerate while mjd cycles mjd triggers -> you are alinged at 100% or near 100% speed (near enough to warp) -> instant warp
so you can align at 0m/s in bastion mode when mode finishes you hit aling and mjd so if you dont get scramed while mjd cycles you always get away! Ah, okay, I thought there was a disconnect here. I thought you meant that the module left you at 100% speed. Also you can't align while your speed is set to 0 m/s. Besides which the facing of your ship does not impact align speed unless your ship is moving. Therefore the MJD doesn't impact the time it takes you to get into warp, it just allows you to potentially escape a bubble if the people trying to hold you down didn't bring a Warp Scrambler.
you are right the models alingment isnt the alingment of you model. (but that does not matter for example whil in mjd cycle your model does not aling while the alingment variable does change!) but where does it say you cant rotate while not moveing forward?
i think we need a clarification here CCP plz?
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 12:41:00 -
[4089] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:What do you think about replacing the 100% rep bonus with just 50% non-stacked resistance? It would be the same as +100% reps, but fix issues with having to get down to low shields/armour before repping if you have very bonused reps. it would also double the EHP which would help stop them being massive gank targets in Bastion due to the strangely low HP. And the resistance increasing logi effectiveness wouldn't be a problem since they can't be remote repped. It could also make hull tanking viable if the resistance buff is applied to hull as well :) or just mean you dont need a DCU.
50% resist bonus on top of T2 resists will let you fit out a dual-XLASB Golem to not only permatank the DPS of several sieged Moroses but also have the EHP (over 400k) to avoid getting alphaed through your tank. The same goes for a Vargur against Revelations. |

Egravant Alduin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 13:09:00 -
[4090] - Quote
The two modes looks nice but I would prefer a 5th weapon slot to make those 70-90 days of training worth it . |
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Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 13:27:00 -
[4091] - Quote
Aralez wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. you just killed mauraders, Vargur was my favorite ship in the game now without its tanking bonus's its worthless! your creativity is gone as was shown with dust. I have little reason to start playing agian when the winter expansion comes out. think its time to just let my accounts die and spend my time else where..
Can I haz your tattoos then? 
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 13:42:00 -
[4092] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: I prefer killing and salvaging everything as well, though I come in with a noctis after I'm done to clear things up. I find it relaxing rather than managing an extra set of targets while running the mission.
For missions where the rats are further out a MJD is going to server your purposes better than an MWD since you can put yourself within range of a T2 tractor beam with only a single jump. If the range bonus goes up to 150% then that becomes even easier.
With autocannons the range bonus helps you do more damage since you're fighting in falloff even if you somehow have enough tracking that that doesn't factor (in my opinion there's no such thing). This lets you kill things faster within your salvage range.
For Hybrids, which is where most of my experience lies, it lets you use higher damage ammo at longer ranges and achieve a similar effect but with more ammo swapping. Tracking is more of a consideration though, especially inside of Antimatter ranges.
The way you explain stuff really cool of my tempers ^.^ I'm agree with the damage application and haven't had any complain about it.
Under perfect conditions and on the paper, what you tell about jumping and salvaging back-forth works. In the real-life, there will be a lot of spots that doesn't work quite well, especially during missioning. I will leave some information missing on a purpose so reading it will become more exotic ;) As a side note: I don't blitz missions. Here are some examples;
1- "Getting quafe to spawn" enemies @ 40km. Even in order to start fireworks, you've to crawl that range with a massive speed of 162m/s, if you've mjd fitted. I'd finish that mission even with extra spawns from that destroyer, within the same time. By the time you get quafe with a mjd, I'd finish the mission and start salvaging already ;)
2- You activated gate and land a gate with mixed foes nearby, immediately aggro you on arrive. Next gate is ~20km away, however, all other npcs are pretty seperated. If you kill everyone, you have to visit 2 spots at least. And cannot MjD since the gate will be 50km away from you when you finish your work.
3- Ahhh, turning around Angel scout post! Spawns spawns moar spawns, lots of hard-dying frigates, tons of cruisers and BS's at the very end. Since you have to relocate yourself a couple times with a mjd, you will have to mjd couple times in order to gather whole mess after it.
4- All mission rooms with a gate nearby while enemies are located somewhere else. Bunny mjd'ing won't work because you won't be able to get salvages in that way.
5- *caugh* not blitzing *caugh* It has 3 parts, very gassy at the end. Especially last part. I don't use another ship and simply put a mwd on my toy, come back in and out from the other end.
6- You warped in, a big mining post in front of you telling you to get out. On your left, do you remember an unusable trigger gate @40km? You will swear you won't fit mjd on that one ever again. Good journey with 162meters/sec.
7- Incursions. So you will leave your team, warping off 100km, become defenseless when npc switch agro to you. Trying to heat your stuff and struggling to stay alive, your dps lowers, burdening your fellow mates to catch to your location and clear around you from frigs and cruisers. Oh poor arty marauder... Not to mention that also can't move! No buff on you, will save you from those npcs, without proper logistic support which you can't get because of the mighty bastion!
8- I think I'll stop here, because I'm very demoralized that when things go live, it will be too late to recover from this... The more I keep thinking, the more disabled I feel.
These are my points. And they will be a lot if you keep thinking. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 14:03:00 -
[4093] - Quote
Still having that long term passionate love affair with the Paladin. I would gladly switch out the near useless web bonus (for my style of play) for a tracking bonus based on role per level. I have been working the MJD/tachyon fit, and with salvage drones, I dont even need a salvager on my ship anymore. This probably wouldnt work for the other ships; not having Minmatar or Gallente gunnery skills I do not fly their Marauders, so I cannot make a recommendation for their role/racial bonuses. I do fly Golem as well, and had one for a couple months, but was unimpressed with t2 cruise missile on it; as of yet I do not have t2 torp skills so I have been missing it's damage potential. I was a bit "iffy" on the need to have 3 target painters to proerly apply damage, and take away from potential tank however. I can see a web bonus being useful on the Golem. My play style though, the web is just wasted. With the MJD, tachys and a flight of warriors, any frigs/dessies are no problem.
I am in favour of immense drawbacks to the Bastion Mode, immobility, no remote repair. However it's becoming clearer that with all the suggestions, a more racial approach to what bonuses these ships might suit a racial rather than a one size fits all approach.
Paladin: replace webs with tracking or capacitor regeneration? Golem: a bonus to reduce speed factor of target? Vargur: change tracking to optimal? Kronos: I'm not even sure what would work on that hull. Web range and optimal range?
I am no expert, nor do I claim to be. Just my suggestion. What would be helpful is a response from our Galactic Overlords (read CCP) to sum up where we are and what is going to happen, and what is NOT going to happen. This is probably one of the most debated balancing posts ever and for good reason. People who fly this ship tend to love it.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 14:07:00 -
[4094] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote: I prefer killing and salvaging everything as well, though I come in with a noctis after I'm done to clear things up. I find it relaxing rather than managing an extra set of targets while running the mission.
For missions where the rats are further out a MJD is going to server your purposes better than an MWD since you can put yourself within range of a T2 tractor beam with only a single jump. If the range bonus goes up to 150% then that becomes even easier.
With autocannons the range bonus helps you do more damage since you're fighting in falloff even if you somehow have enough tracking that that doesn't factor (in my opinion there's no such thing). This lets you kill things faster within your salvage range.
For Hybrids, which is where most of my experience lies, it lets you use higher damage ammo at longer ranges and achieve a similar effect but with more ammo swapping. Tracking is more of a consideration though, especially inside of Antimatter ranges.
The way you explain stuff really cool of my tempers ^.^ I agree with the damage application and haven't had any complain about it. However, equipping with mjd and using it will make your AC useless, thus forcing you to equip arties instead. So, you ALWAYS have to be the sentry dominix or maelstrom I mentioned. Getting close to stuff, you will only make your shells worthless because of epic arty tracking. I mean, you really want to snipe with your marauder if you're recommending mjd usage. Under perfect conditions and on the paper, what you tell about jumping and salvaging back-forth works. In the real-life, there will be a lot of spots that doesn't work quite well, especially during missioning. I will leave some information missing on a purpose so reading it will become more exotic ;) As a side note: I don't blitz missions. Here are some examples; 1- "Getting quafe to spawn" enemies @ 40km. Even in order to start fireworks, you've to crawl that range with a massive speed of 162m/s, if you've mjd fitted. I'd finish that mission even with extra spawns from that destroyer, within the same time. By the time you get quafe with a mjd, I'll have finished the mission and start salvaging already ;) 2- You activated gate and land a gate with mixed foes nearby, immediately aggro you on arrive. Next gate is ~20km away, however, all other npcs are pretty seperated. If you kill everyone, you have to visit 2 spots at least. And cannot MjD since the gate will be 50km away from you when you finish your work. 3- Ahhh, turning around Angel scout post! Spawns spawns moar spawns, lots of hard-dying frigates, tons of cruisers and BS's at the very end. Since you have to relocate yourself a couple times with a mjd, you will have to mjd couple times in order to gather whole mess after it. 4- All mission rooms with a gate nearby while enemies are located somewhere else. Bunny mjd'ing won't work because you won't be able to get salvages in that way. 5- *caugh* not blitzing *caugh* It has 3 parts, very gassy at the end. Especially last part. I don't use another ship and simply put a mwd on my toy, come back in and out from the other end. 6- You warped in, a big mining post in front of you telling you to get out. On your left, do you remember an unusable trigger gate @40km? You will swear you won't fit mjd on that one ever again. Good journey with 162meters/sec. 7- Incursions. So you will leave your team, warping off 100km, become defenseless when npc switch agro to you. Trying to heat your stuff and struggling to stay alive, your dps lowers, burdening your fellow mates to catch to your location and clear around you from frigs and cruisers. Oh poor arty marauder... Not to mention that also can't move! None of the bastion buffs will save you from those npcs, without proper logistic support which you can't get because of the mighty shapeshifting mechanics! 8- I think I'll stop here, because I'm very demoralized. When things go live, it will be too late to recover from this... The more I keep thinking, the more disabled I feel. These are my points. And there will be a lot like these if you keep thinking.
Salvage drones are not limited to range. I can salvage 5 wrecks at one time with them, and only tractor in the cans if/when they have loot. I find the MJD works very well for that. I only have to do a little bit of messing around. Its less time than tractoring in all the wrecks thats for sure. Try it.
The salvage time you save by using 5 drones instead of one salvager more than makes up for the travel time of 40kms. Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 14:20:00 -
[4095] - Quote
Egravant Alduin wrote:The two modes looks nice but I would prefer a 5th weapon slot to make those 70-90 days of training worth it .
I don't see adding a 5th weapon slot as something that will ever happen. The ships are fine without it, and out DPS T1 battleships.
The training time is worth it if you are a PVE carebear. Marauders are very nice ships to mission/Incursion in. They are licensed to print isk.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 14:34:00 -
[4096] - Quote
Apo Lamperouge wrote:
Salvage drones are not limited to range. I can salvage 5 wrecks at one time with them, and only tractor in the cans if/when they have loot. I find the MJD works very well for that. I only have to do a little bit of messing around. Its less time than tractoring in all the wrecks thats for sure. Try it.
The salvage time you save by using 5 drones instead of one salvager more than makes up for the travel time of 40kms.
This is my post from page 196:
Shivanthar wrote: 1- Reduced drone bays. Why? So, I'm in a mission, trying to destroy one battleship and a frigate. Frigate scrambled me, I destroyed the BS, and then? Oh 7km orbitting frigate... Doh! Where are my drones? Oh my SALVAGE DRONES! Aahhhhh, endless loop of a scrambled marauder?
I've been using salvage drones from the day 1. They're @ lvl 4. Since that day, I haven't been using salvager neither. I get the third beam instead.
Anyway, I can clearly help you understand that you haven't optimised the use of them.
Since you're talking about salvaging range is limitless, I can understand that you're sending them to heaven. I assume you missed the point that they're crawling back without mwd in order to drop their loot right?
1- Start pulling some wrecks nearby to your ship first. 2 is ok. Giving priority to wrecks with loots within them is an advantage. 2- Disengage any locks you have. 3-In order to get an automated process, when you finished everything, don't get any lock on the wrecks yet. 4- Get your salvage drones out. 5- With their menu expanded and *still not locked on any wreck* right click each of them and click salvage. Some may prefer doing the same with clicking only once to "Salvage" under "Drones in space" menu. 6- You will notice they'll start salvaging nearest possible wreck relative to your ship. 7- When any of them successfully finishes salvage cycle, the rest of the drones will automatically move to the other nearby wrecks. 8- The salvager drone with loot, however, needs to come back within 2500 meters of your ship in order to bring its loot to your cargo bay. Since you get wrecks nearby with your beam first, they will insta-bring their loot and move on to next target.
Anyway, none of these salvaging 201 stuff solves any marauder issues I mentioned in my previous post. Unfortunately. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 15:31:00 -
[4097] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Lair Osen wrote:What do you think about replacing the 100% rep bonus with just 50% non-stacked resistance? It would be the same as +100% reps, but fix issues with having to get down to low shields/armour before repping if you have very bonused reps. it would also double the EHP which would help stop them being massive gank targets in Bastion due to the strangely low HP. And the resistance increasing logi effectiveness wouldn't be a problem since they can't be remote repped. It could also make hull tanking viable if the resistance buff is applied to hull as well :) or just mean you dont need a DCU. 50% resist bonus on top of T2 resists will let you fit out a dual-XLASB Golem to not only permatank the DPS of several sieged Moroses at point blank range but also have the EHP to avoid getting alphaed through your tank. The same goes for a Vargur against Revelations. Seriously, this allows a >30,000 DPS tank on >600,000 EHP with just running one booster while reloading the other one. >60,000 DPS can be tanked by running both. The bastion module as currently designed is just asking for trouble. Vargur turns into a "tank multiple dreadnaughts while neuting 75 cap/sec and doing 1300 DPS with gun tracking good enough to hit interceptors" solo pwnmobile.
Well if you've blinged your ship up enough to get that tank and EHP your ship's going to cost the same as a carrier anyway, so why would you want it alphad off the field by blap dreads? (And if you didn't, why would you bastion anywhere near a bunch of dreads?) And also, to get that much tank out of an XLASB you're probably going to have the cycle time sped up a large amount meaning you're going to be out of charges and cap pretty quickly and dead soon after since you can be RRed, not to mention the risks of having to wait for low shields before you rep since you're probably going to be repping at least half your HP per cycle. Additionally the specific nature of the scenarios you gave is why the T2 resists are a bad idea, IMO. Aside from the Vargur's fairly even resists, the rest just make the ship either OP or bad against certain damage types. Remove the uneven T2 resists, give back the rep bonus and make Bastion 50% resists. |

Helgur
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 16:14:00 -
[4098] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Wow. Definitely happy I started speculated on Marauders a couple months ago. Wallet Win!
Changes definitely look good. Though kinda worried they might be a bit OP'd with the Ody 1.1 changes to local reps. Especially when you get a group of them jumping around in small gang fights.
When is the taxman chronicles returning? That is my most anticipated eve expansion tbqfh |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:03:00 -
[4099] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Well if you've blinged your ship up enough to get that tank and EHP your ship's going to cost the same as a carrier anyway, so why would you want it alphad off the field by blap dreads? (And if you didn't, why would you bastion anywhere near a bunch of dreads?) And also, to get that much tank out of an XLASB you're probably going to have the cycle time sped up a large amount meaning you're going to be out of charges and cap pretty quickly and dead soon after since you can be RRed, not to mention the risks of having to wait for low shields before you rep since you're probably going to be repping at least half your HP per cycle. Additionally the specific nature of the scenarios you gave is why the T2 resists are a bad idea, IMO. Aside from the Vargur's fairly even resists, the rest just make the ship either OP or bad against certain damage types. Remove the uneven T2 resists, give back the rep bonus and make Bastion 50% resists instead of 100% reps.
No, that's with no overheating of the XLASB and no operational solidifiers. Also you can get a 20,000/40,000 DPS tank with just T2 equipment. The tracking is so good (0.111 with no tracking mods, medium neutrons start at 0.12) there's no way to get under the guns. You can't ewar it, and neuting doesn't shut off the boosting or the guns. It's literally unkillable with any reasonably sized non-capital gang that doesn't have multiple logistics to rep the dps until you run them out of cap charges. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:14:00 -
[4100] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: No, that's with no overheating of the XLASB and no operational solidifiers. Also you can get a 20,000/40,000 DPS tank with just T2 equipment. The tracking is so good (0.111 with no tracking mods, medium neutrons start at 0.12) there's no way to get under the guns. You can't ewar it, and neuting doesn't shut off the boosting or the guns. It's literally unkillable with any reasonably sized non-capital gang that doesn't have multiple logistics to rep the dps until you run them out of cap charges.
Err... Please post this 40k dps (with only one boost running?) XLASB, Bastion, T2 tank... |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:18:00 -
[4101] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Xequecal wrote: No, that's with no overheating of the XLASB and no operational solidifiers. Also you can get a 20,000/40,000 DPS tank with just T2 equipment. The tracking is so good (0.111 with no tracking mods, medium neutrons start at 0.12) there's no way to get under the guns. You can't ewar it, and neuting doesn't shut off the boosting or the guns. It's literally unkillable with any reasonably sized non-capital gang that doesn't have multiple logistics to rep the dps until you run them out of cap charges.
Err... Please post this 40k dps (with only one boost running?) XLASB T2 tank...
That's why I said 20,000/40,000. Obviously, the 20k is with one booster running while you reload the other, the 40k is with them both running. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:24:00 -
[4102] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Xequecal wrote: No, that's with no overheating of the XLASB and no operational solidifiers. Also you can get a 20,000/40,000 DPS tank with just T2 equipment. The tracking is so good (0.111 with no tracking mods, medium neutrons start at 0.12) there's no way to get under the guns. You can't ewar it, and neuting doesn't shut off the boosting or the guns. It's literally unkillable with any reasonably sized non-capital gang that doesn't have multiple logistics to rep the dps until you run them out of cap charges.
Err... Please post this 40k dps (with only one boost running?) XLASB T2 tank... That's why I said 20,000/40,000. Obviously, the 20k is with one booster running while you reload the other, the 40k is with them both running.
Ok what's this 20k dps Bastion T2 tank fit then? |

Nyu Kaminari
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:51:00 -
[4103] - Quote
I know I have wrote along these lines previously but, it is undeniable that what the community previously wanted for their marauders were changes to make them more battle-worthy then their faction and T-1 counterparts. For this reason alone, the current marauders should be tweaked imo and not twisted between PVE and PVP.
Giving additional medium or low slots to be in line with the Tier 3 fittings for BS would solve a lot of complaints by it' self . of course power grid changes provided look very promising as well as any CPU adjustments that may be needed along with capacitor. It has allowed for example: The paladin to actually fit it's Tach's along with a better repairer & MWD / MJD.
I may be wrong here by suggesting this, however, many many players have been upset with the web bonuses claiming that a higher tracking speed or adjustments to missile bonuses are a must. (drones usually destroy what a Marauder cannot). Because of this, I do not think a web bonus is a necessity at all on the Tier 2 hull whatsoever.
Tank is also a much discussed issue for the current marauder set up. T2 resists or local rep bonus? I suppose that is the toss of a coin if introducing another mid or low slot. seeing as how both of them in conjunction with one another might cause tank unbalancing for missions but would protect people far more in low/zero space.
That is just for the current hulls though and like so many advanced ships (Assault ships, Heavy assault ships, Command ships Ect.) I am thinking it is a MUST HAVE to make a side-by-side marauder which operates a little differently from the PVE counterpart. Both should receive different bonuses when using the bastion module and for as much power as they may gain with that additional high slot, they must also be willing to suffer the consequences of operation.
This can still be versatile and fun. The BM's just have to work properly in order to separate them from any other BS out there.
P.S. gotta work on the tractor beam issue to make it better or get rid of it completely. (Noctis) |

DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:59:00 -
[4104] - Quote
ok so, let me get this straight....
you're giving them the ability to MJD every minute and a massive range bonus in bastion mode. so the entire idea is to stay OUT of web range and pummel bitches at 60km+ with short range weapons ???
and you're giving them a web bonus.... ha, haha, hahahahhahahahahahahaa
REALLY?
worthless bonus is worthless |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 18:37:00 -
[4105] - Quote
Nyu Kaminari wrote:
Giving additional medium or low slots to be in line with the Tier 3 fittings for BS would solve a lot of complaints by it' self . of course power grid changes provided look very promising as well as any CPU adjustments that may be needed along with capacitor. It has allowed for example: The paladin to actually fit it's Tach's along with a better repairer & MWD / MJD.
I have no fitting issues with t2 tachs with a deadspace large armor repper, mission hardeners, MJD and ~980 dps. I would love to have an additional low slot for a t2 1600mm plate, but what can you do? I think what I would love to have most is heightened cap regen for extra repper pulsing or a badass tracking bonus and lose web and tractor beam bonus altogether.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 19:08:00 -
[4106] - Quote
Apo Lamperouge wrote:Nyu Kaminari wrote:
Giving additional medium or low slots to be in line with the Tier 3 fittings for BS would solve a lot of complaints by it' self . of course power grid changes provided look very promising as well as any CPU adjustments that may be needed along with capacitor. It has allowed for example: The paladin to actually fit it's Tach's along with a better repairer & MWD / MJD.
I have no fitting issues with t2 tachs with a deadspace large armor repper, mission hardeners, MJD and ~980 dps. I would love to have an additional low slot for a t2 1600mm plate, but what can you do? I think what I would love to have most is heightened cap regen for extra repper pulsing or a badass tracking bonus and lose web and tractor beam bonus altogether. I have the same general feeling about the golem. You pretty much have to use 2 target painters and a cap booster. This leaves 4 mids for tank.. Golem can't use torps in lvl 4's anymore thanks to torp range nerfs last year. They can with bastion, but why would you when you can use the rigs for damge mods and just fit cruise missiles. Anyway, with MJD you now have 3 mids left for tank.... I would much rather drop the 8th high and instead, get an 8th mid. I would gladly exchange a salvager for the bastion, but there is no way in hell I would exchange a tank, TP, or cap booster for an MJD... It's just not worth it, expecially on the golem.
Also, some kind of bonus to cap regen or shield booster cap usage in bastion would be awesome, expecially if we aren't immune to cap warfare. However, since we can't receive cap in bastion, we should be immune to cap war. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1932
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 19:18:00 -
[4107] - Quote
Meanwhile, elsewhere...
Watch the birdy! (and don't mind what they're going to do to your Marauder).
I swear that my first impression was: "Huh? Another Star Citizen ship?" But then, what's the point to have a Cool (TM) bastion mode animation, when your skill-intensive and expensive marauder has been nerfucked into a unpresentable pile of manure? The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

marVLs
417
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 19:23:00 -
[4108] - Quote
Hmmm TP bonus on Golem seems useless at least for lvl4s. There's no sense using torps when we got awesome cruise missiles, You fit rigors in rigs, kill BS's with Fury's, Cruisers and BC's die from one volley with t1 ammo... |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 19:25:00 -
[4109] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Apo Lamperouge wrote:Nyu Kaminari wrote:
Giving additional medium or low slots to be in line with the Tier 3 fittings for BS would solve a lot of complaints by it' self . of course power grid changes provided look very promising as well as any CPU adjustments that may be needed along with capacitor. It has allowed for example: The paladin to actually fit it's Tach's along with a better repairer & MWD / MJD.
I have no fitting issues with t2 tachs with a deadspace large armor repper, mission hardeners, MJD and ~980 dps. I would love to have an additional low slot for a t2 1600mm plate, but what can you do? I think what I would love to have most is heightened cap regen for extra repper pulsing or a badass tracking bonus and lose web and tractor beam bonus altogether. I have the same general feeling about the golem. You pretty much have to use 2 target painters and a cap booster. This leaves 4 mids for tank.. Golem can't use torps in lvl 4's anymore thanks to torp range nerfs last year. They can with bastion, but why would you when you can use the rigs for damge mods and just fit cruise missiles. Anyway, with MJD you now have 3 mids left for tank.... I would much rather drop the 8th high and instead, get an 8th mid. I would gladly exchange a salvager for the bastion, but there is no way in hell I would exchange a tank, TP, or cap booster for an MJD... It's just not worth it, expecially on the golem. Also, some kind of bonus to cap regen or shield booster cap usage in bastion would be awesome, expecially if we aren't immune to cap warfare. However, since we can't receive cap in bastion, we should be immune to cap war.
Yeah this is exactly what I was talking about. Every body plays this ship differently. The Professor of Salvage earlier plays one way, I play mine (BTW I wasn't asking for Salvage 201, I think I understand how to use salvage drones). Each ship has it's advantages to fittings than others. The whole Bastion Concept has now left the realm of "ok let's wait and see" to "oh please don't f**k it up further".
Crazy idea; make a Tech 3 battleship.
I mean come on don't you think by now the Sleeper technology could be modified to suit battleship technology? In the real world, Grumman or Mcdonnell Douglas would have applied these technologies to every plane they make. Let's face it. Tech 3 works. It's time to stop messing around with changing existing boats, and create a new class.
Covert Config-interdiction nullified hyperion? Super sensor strength-overheat resist abaddon? Drone scoped-wake linited typhoon? I don't know come on it's gotta be better than this debacle they are making.
Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |

Apo Lamperouge
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 19:29:00 -
[4110] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Meanwhile, elsewhere... Watch the birdy! (and don't mind what they're going to do to your Marauder). I swear that my first impression was: "Huh? Another Star Citizen ship?" But then, what's the point to have a Cool (TM) bastion mode animation, when your skill-intensive and expensive marauder has been nerfu***d into a unpresentable pile of manure?
Wow. My tax dollars at work. Booooooooooooring. Back to the drawing board please. Sometimes a knife right through your heart is exactly what you need. |
|

Daisai
Daisai Investments.
156
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 20:10:00 -
[4111] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is KRONOMNOMNOS:High:4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Salvager II 2x Small Tractor Beams II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module Med:1x Large Micro Jump Drive 1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800) 1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts) Low:1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer 2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer 1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs:1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I 1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter. With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything. [list] Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
s[/url].
The dps in theory might look nice but the paladin still has a huge problem that it can't change its damage type so the dps is going to be alot lower then you are fighting a faction like angel cartel. Also the dps is only at optimal and since there are plenty of missions and sites where the range to the npc's are alot further then that the real dps is alot lower aswell.
The best way to test this really is to release it on the test server so that more people who are perhapse and most likely more experienced in using the type of ships can test this module.
Having 1220 dps on a kronos is rather pointless if its only at 6km range when your ship cant move. I still would be better of using a rattlesnake with sentry drones, stable dps no ammo and about the same if not higher at the same range. A rattlesnake can get about 1050dps at 44km optimal range, the optimal range is set by the garde's, also this ship has no issues at all to tank any mission at all and probably no problems in tanking most escalations either.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 20:11:00 -
[4112] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:... post continued due to character limits.
Not going to reply to each one, it will take too much time.
You are only focusing on mission running, and that is it. These ships will be kill-able in high, low and null sec with enough alpha. The rep bonus will not save them. What this means is by using the bastion module, you are committing yourself to the field just like a siege module. This should be worth it, not a measly 25 percent range bonus. I will not put myself into a ship that will not be able to escape or dock before a hot-drop / fleet / high-sec gank can easily kill me through alpha, or at least give me the chance of escape.
There is quite a bit of fleet pvp talk in your posts, but without some form of power creep there is no reason to field these over a standard or faction bs or tech 1 bs fleet for pvp as tacklers will be able to close on you and lock you down before you can MJD a second time, or you won't be receiving RR so you will die to extremely high alpha because unlike a dread, you do not have a large pool (read millions) of hit-points to buffer you. If you want a large amount of extra power field a dread instead, it will cost 2 times as much or more than the marauder, but it will bring some pain, just as you have described.
What purpose are these hulls supposed to fill? I personally feel they should be the logical step in between a BS and a Dread. This doesn't mean that CCP or anyone else will or should agree. The rest of the BS hulls are capped on dps and application at a certain point, it would be nice to have something that takes dps up a notch. The T3 cruisers and HACs and pirate can both do this for the cruiser hulls, as can the Assault frigs and pirate frigs for the frigate sized hulls. Command ships increase damage (in most cases) above the T1 counterparts as well. This is only a natural progression. As of now the Marauder does not do this in the same fashion. It is the logical battleship sized HAC. If CCP doesn't want this, it's no skin of my back, I just won't fly it as faction and pirate already do extremely well in pve activities. For fleet pvp corps/alliances have doctrines, so you just fly the doctrine ship. For small gang, you just don't bring a bs anyway.
Now the hulls themselves without bastion are descent enough, but they really only save you on ammo and allow you to salvage while playing. I don't enjoy salvaging, so I don't really do it. They have some advantage against their T1 counterparts, but again there isn't really a focus (other than pve which ccp says they want to expand the role into pvp for these hulls). Ball is in there court, hopefully we will get an update after this Thursday's expansion announcement. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 21:38:00 -
[4113] - Quote
I really read a lot of posts here, since Marauders are my only real enjoyment in this game.
In the end, you'll end up with this on PvP side:
A very expensive ship, that boosts itself when changed: Absoultely crap. During a fleet battle, if I mjd away and hit bastion, I will be locked for 1 min right? Now, somebody tell me, especially for the guys who have used interceptors. With a price tag of billion(s), and having ehp of a over-average bs, wouldn't a Marauder be your first priority? If you really up for it, how many seconds will it take to get nearby of a bastion-Marauder? I count 25 is enough. Within 45 seconds at best, any interceptor can bring their fleet as much as 50km away of a Marauder, who is still locked on its place. With very little ehp, and unable to get logi support, 10 man fleet's F1 will turn a Marauder into dust within seconds, who hasn't shot his guns 4th time yet :P My math may be wrong here, not counting RoF bonus etc... Let's say 5th shot. You're paying billions to go into a stationary mode which risks you dying in 1 minute, without even shooting much. Sounds very fun isn't it?
PvE side: In many of my previous posts, I mentioned this a lot. For Vargur, even it is buffed to a degree which won't affect it when fitting mjd and ab/mwd together, you will loose boost buff. In order to fight safe, you will have to go into bastion to get resists. So you MUST play sniper. All the time. It will slow mission completion time. For whole 3 years, during fleet pve, I haven't seen any sniper BS in lvl 4 mission, that had surprassed 1:4 ratio of ship killing of my Vargur. For every 4 foes I kill, I hear a big boom, killing a foe, if not missed. So, if you were completing a mission in let's say 45 minutes including salvaging. I can clearly estimate its new completion time as close to or more than 3 hours including salvaging. Don't laugh on this, I will hear you cry here after it goes live :D
All I'm trying to do is saving my marauder as a mission runner. Otherwise it will be going down in flames :P |

Sigras
Conglomo
529
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 22:59:00 -
[4114] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:I really read a lot of posts here, since my Marauder is my only real enjoyment in this game.
In the end, you'll end up with this on PvP side:
A very expensive ship, that boosts itself when changed: Absolutely crap. During a fleet battle, if I mjd away and hit bastion, I will be locked for 1 min right? Now, somebody tell me, especially for the guys who have used interceptors. With a price tag of billion(s), and having ehp of a over-average bs, wouldn't a Marauder be your first priority? If you really up for it, how many seconds will it take to get nearby of a bastion-Marauder? I count 25 is enough. Within 45 seconds at best, any interceptor can bring their fleet as much as 50km away of a Marauder, who is still locked on its place. With very little ehp, and unable to get logi support, 10 man fleet's F1 will turn a Marauder into dust within seconds, who hasn't shot his guns 4th time yet :P My math may be wrong here, not counting RoF bonus etc... Let's say 5th shot. You're paying billions to go into a stationary mode which risks you dying in 1 minute, without even shooting much. Sounds very fun isn't it? Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.
How about you use your MWD to run away while sniping at them from 100 km then MJD away whenever anyone gets close? I would like un-bubble-able hard to catch sniper battleships plez
The fact that you're not creative enough to use the ship in PvP doesnt make them bad ships.
Shivanthar wrote:PvE side: In many of my previous posts, I mentioned this a lot. For Vargur, even it is buffed to a degree which won't affect it when fitting mjd and ab/mwd together, you will loose boost buff. In order to fight safe, you will have to go into bastion to get resists. So you MUST play sniper. All the time. It will slow mission completion time. For whole 3 years, during fleet pve, I haven't seen any sniper BS in lvl 4 mission, that had surprassed 1:4 ratio of ship killing of my Vargur. For every 4 foes I kill, I hear a big boom, killing a foe, if not missed. So, if you were completing a mission in let's say 45 minutes including salvaging. I can clearly estimate its new completion time as close to or more than 3 hours including salvaging. Don't laugh on this, I will hear you cry here after it goes live :D
All I'm trying to do is saving my marauder as a mission runner. Otherwise it will be going down in flames :P
I will repeat myself here: This is not that ship! Do you want to hear which ship would be best for this role in Minmatar? A T2 maelstrom hull BS. Being already a good sniper platform, it will fit this role much better than Tempest platform, for example. On other factions, I'm not sure, their Marauder pilots can give tons of advices for their precious ones. There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . .
First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont.
Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately.
Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 23:57:00 -
[4115] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Shivanthar wrote:I really read a lot of posts here, since my Marauder is my only real enjoyment in this game.
In the end, you'll end up with this on PvP side:
A very expensive ship, that boosts itself when changed: Absolutely crap. During a fleet battle, if I mjd away and hit bastion, I will be locked for 1 min right? Now, somebody tell me, especially for the guys who have used interceptors. With a price tag of billion(s), and having ehp of a over-average bs, wouldn't a Marauder be your first priority? If you really up for it, how many seconds will it take to get nearby of a bastion-Marauder? I count 25 is enough. Within 45 seconds at best, any interceptor can bring their fleet as much as 50km away of a Marauder, who is still locked on its place. With very little ehp, and unable to get logi support, 10 man fleet's F1 will turn a Marauder into dust within seconds, who hasn't shot his guns 4th time yet :P My math may be wrong here, not counting RoF bonus etc... Let's say 5th shot. You're paying billions to go into a stationary mode which risks you dying in 1 minute, without even shooting much. Sounds very fun isn't it? Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship. How about you use your MWD to run away while sniping at them from 100 km then MJD away whenever anyone gets close? I would like un-bubble-able hard to catch sniper battleships plez The fact that you're not creative enough to use the ship in PvP doesnt make them bad ships. Shivanthar wrote:PvE side: In many of my previous posts, I mentioned this a lot. For Vargur, even it is buffed to a degree which won't affect it when fitting mjd and ab/mwd together, you will loose boost buff. In order to fight safe, you will have to go into bastion to get resists. So you MUST play sniper. All the time. It will slow mission completion time. For whole 3 years, during fleet pve, I haven't seen any sniper BS in lvl 4 mission, that had surprassed 1:4 ratio of ship killing of my Vargur. For every 4 foes I kill, I hear a big boom, killing a foe, if not missed. So, if you were completing a mission in let's say 45 minutes including salvaging. I can clearly estimate its new completion time as close to or more than 3 hours including salvaging. Don't laugh on this, I will hear you cry here after it goes live :D
All I'm trying to do is saving my marauder as a mission runner. Otherwise it will be going down in flames :P
I will repeat myself here: This is not that ship! Do you want to hear which ship would be best for this role in Minmatar? A T2 maelstrom hull BS. Being already a good sniper platform, it will fit this role much better than Tempest platform, for example. On other factions, I'm not sure, their Marauder pilots can give tons of advices for their precious ones. There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . . First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont. Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately. Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong.
The golem has problems tanking lvl 4's if you're using an x-l booster. This is because of the terrible cap. Even with a x-type, with a large cap booster, you still will cap out in like 1min 20 seconds or so... My nightmare does way better on cap, and it's a freaking laser boat. And i'm talking about with t2 tachs on it, x-l shield booster, tracking computer, 3 active resists, and a large cap booster.
Edit.. Oh, and it's got a massive sig. NPCs pound the hell out of you, and when I used to fly it as a torp boat, it got bounded and a large shield booster came no where near keeping up. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1427
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 01:00:00 -
[4116] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Sigras wrote:Shivanthar wrote:I really read a lot of posts here, since my Marauder is my only real enjoyment in this game.
In the end, you'll end up with this on PvP side:
A very expensive ship, that boosts itself when changed: Absolutely crap. During a fleet battle, if I mjd away and hit bastion, I will be locked for 1 min right? Now, somebody tell me, especially for the guys who have used interceptors. With a price tag of billion(s), and having ehp of a over-average bs, wouldn't a Marauder be your first priority? If you really up for it, how many seconds will it take to get nearby of a bastion-Marauder? I count 25 is enough. Within 45 seconds at best, any interceptor can bring their fleet as much as 50km away of a Marauder, who is still locked on its place. With very little ehp, and unable to get logi support, 10 man fleet's F1 will turn a Marauder into dust within seconds, who hasn't shot his guns 4th time yet :P My math may be wrong here, not counting RoF bonus etc... Let's say 5th shot. You're paying billions to go into a stationary mode which risks you dying in 1 minute, without even shooting much. Sounds very fun isn't it? Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship. How about you use your MWD to run away while sniping at them from 100 km then MJD away whenever anyone gets close? I would like un-bubble-able hard to catch sniper battleships plez The fact that you're not creative enough to use the ship in PvP doesnt make them bad ships. Shivanthar wrote:PvE side: In many of my previous posts, I mentioned this a lot. For Vargur, even it is buffed to a degree which won't affect it when fitting mjd and ab/mwd together, you will loose boost buff. In order to fight safe, you will have to go into bastion to get resists. So you MUST play sniper. All the time. It will slow mission completion time. For whole 3 years, during fleet pve, I haven't seen any sniper BS in lvl 4 mission, that had surprassed 1:4 ratio of ship killing of my Vargur. For every 4 foes I kill, I hear a big boom, killing a foe, if not missed. So, if you were completing a mission in let's say 45 minutes including salvaging. I can clearly estimate its new completion time as close to or more than 3 hours including salvaging. Don't laugh on this, I will hear you cry here after it goes live :D
All I'm trying to do is saving my marauder as a mission runner. Otherwise it will be going down in flames :P
I will repeat myself here: This is not that ship! Do you want to hear which ship would be best for this role in Minmatar? A T2 maelstrom hull BS. Being already a good sniper platform, it will fit this role much better than Tempest platform, for example. On other factions, I'm not sure, their Marauder pilots can give tons of advices for their precious ones. There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . . First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont. Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately. Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong. The golem has problems tanking lvl 4's if you're using an x-l booster. This is because of the terrible cap. Even with a x-type, with a large cap booster, you still will cap out in like 1min 20 seconds or so... My nightmare does way better on cap, and it's a freaking laser boat. And i'm talking about with t2 tachs on it, x-l shield booster, tracking computer, 3 active resists, and a large cap booster. Edit.. Oh, and it's got a massive sig. NPCs pound the hell out of you, and when I used to fly it as a torp boat, it got bounded and a large shield booster came no where near keeping up.
Problems... tanking a lvl 4?
Mate, i think you're doing it wrong.. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 01:16:00 -
[4117] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sigras wrote:Shivanthar wrote:I really read a lot of posts here, since my Marauder is my only real enjoyment in this game.
In the end, you'll end up with this on PvP side:
A very expensive ship, that boosts itself when changed: Absolutely crap. During a fleet battle, if I mjd away and hit bastion, I will be locked for 1 min right? Now, somebody tell me, especially for the guys who have used interceptors. With a price tag of billion(s), and having ehp of a over-average bs, wouldn't a Marauder be your first priority? If you really up for it, how many seconds will it take to get nearby of a bastion-Marauder? I count 25 is enough. Within 45 seconds at best, any interceptor can bring their fleet as much as 50km away of a Marauder, who is still locked on its place. With very little ehp, and unable to get logi support, 10 man fleet's F1 will turn a Marauder into dust within seconds, who hasn't shot his guns 4th time yet :P My math may be wrong here, not counting RoF bonus etc... Let's say 5th shot. You're paying billions to go into a stationary mode which risks you dying in 1 minute, without even shooting much. Sounds very fun isn't it? Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship. How about you use your MWD to run away while sniping at them from 100 km then MJD away whenever anyone gets close? I would like un-bubble-able hard to catch sniper battleships plez The fact that you're not creative enough to use the ship in PvP doesnt make them bad ships. Shivanthar wrote:PvE side: In many of my previous posts, I mentioned this a lot. For Vargur, even it is buffed to a degree which won't affect it when fitting mjd and ab/mwd together, you will loose boost buff. In order to fight safe, you will have to go into bastion to get resists. So you MUST play sniper. All the time. It will slow mission completion time. For whole 3 years, during fleet pve, I haven't seen any sniper BS in lvl 4 mission, that had surprassed 1:4 ratio of ship killing of my Vargur. For every 4 foes I kill, I hear a big boom, killing a foe, if not missed. So, if you were completing a mission in let's say 45 minutes including salvaging. I can clearly estimate its new completion time as close to or more than 3 hours including salvaging. Don't laugh on this, I will hear you cry here after it goes live :D
All I'm trying to do is saving my marauder as a mission runner. Otherwise it will be going down in flames :P
I will repeat myself here: This is not that ship! Do you want to hear which ship would be best for this role in Minmatar? A T2 maelstrom hull BS. Being already a good sniper platform, it will fit this role much better than Tempest platform, for example. On other factions, I'm not sure, their Marauder pilots can give tons of advices for their precious ones. There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . . First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont. Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately. Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong. The golem has problems tanking lvl 4's if you're using an x-l booster. This is because of the terrible cap. Even with a x-type, with a large cap booster, you still will cap out in like 1min 20 seconds or so... My nightmare does way better on cap, and it's a freaking laser boat. And i'm talking about with t2 tachs on it, x-l shield booster, tracking computer, 3 active resists, and a large cap booster. Edit.. Oh, and it's got a massive sig. NPCs pound the hell out of you, and when I used to fly it as a torp boat, it got bounded and a large shield booster came no where near keeping up. Problems... tanking a lvl 4? Mate, i think you're doing it wrong..
Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs).
Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it.
And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.
My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 01:27:00 -
[4118] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sigras wrote:Shivanthar wrote:I really read a lot of posts here, since my Marauder is my only real enjoyment in this game.
In the end, you'll end up with this on PvP side:
A very expensive ship, that boosts itself when changed: Absolutely crap. During a fleet battle, if I mjd away and hit bastion, I will be locked for 1 min right? Now, somebody tell me, especially for the guys who have used interceptors. With a price tag of billion(s), and having ehp of a over-average bs, wouldn't a Marauder be your first priority? If you really up for it, how many seconds will it take to get nearby of a bastion-Marauder? I count 25 is enough. Within 45 seconds at best, any interceptor can bring their fleet as much as 50km away of a Marauder, who is still locked on its place. With very little ehp, and unable to get logi support, 10 man fleet's F1 will turn a Marauder into dust within seconds, who hasn't shot his guns 4th time yet :P My math may be wrong here, not counting RoF bonus etc... Let's say 5th shot. You're paying billions to go into a stationary mode which risks you dying in 1 minute, without even shooting much. Sounds very fun isn't it? Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship. How about you use your MWD to run away while sniping at them from 100 km then MJD away whenever anyone gets close? I would like un-bubble-able hard to catch sniper battleships plez The fact that you're not creative enough to use the ship in PvP doesnt make them bad ships. Shivanthar wrote:PvE side: In many of my previous posts, I mentioned this a lot. For Vargur, even it is buffed to a degree which won't affect it when fitting mjd and ab/mwd together, you will loose boost buff. In order to fight safe, you will have to go into bastion to get resists. So you MUST play sniper. All the time. It will slow mission completion time. For whole 3 years, during fleet pve, I haven't seen any sniper BS in lvl 4 mission, that had surprassed 1:4 ratio of ship killing of my Vargur. For every 4 foes I kill, I hear a big boom, killing a foe, if not missed. So, if you were completing a mission in let's say 45 minutes including salvaging. I can clearly estimate its new completion time as close to or more than 3 hours including salvaging. Don't laugh on this, I will hear you cry here after it goes live :D
All I'm trying to do is saving my marauder as a mission runner. Otherwise it will be going down in flames :P
I will repeat myself here: This is not that ship! Do you want to hear which ship would be best for this role in Minmatar? A T2 maelstrom hull BS. Being already a good sniper platform, it will fit this role much better than Tempest platform, for example. On other factions, I'm not sure, their Marauder pilots can give tons of advices for their precious ones. There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . . First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont. Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately. Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong. The golem has problems tanking lvl 4's if you're using an x-l booster. This is because of the terrible cap. Even with a x-type, with a large cap booster, you still will cap out in like 1min 20 seconds or so... My nightmare does way better on cap, and it's a freaking laser boat. And i'm talking about with t2 tachs on it, x-l shield booster, tracking computer, 3 active resists, and a large cap booster. Edit.. Oh, and it's got a massive sig. NPCs pound the hell out of you, and when I used to fly it as a torp boat, it got bounded and a large shield booster came no where near keeping up. Problems... tanking a lvl 4? Mate, i think you're doing it wrong..
Have you ever used a torp golem before? Pre torp nerf they barely had the range to hit targets at max mission orbit. This meant that everything was at their optimal. There have been many missions that a golem couldn't tank due to cap. One specific mission. Smash the Supplier- anti-amarr mission. You attack anything and the entire room aggroes. I was able to complete that mission in a drake, but I wasn't able to in a torp or cruise golem. This was due to cap, lagged damage application, sig, and low mobility. I've had many missions that were more difficult in a golem than with any other ship I have used, including the drake. It gets hammered in missions. I haven't flown one since they buffed cruise missiles, and that may have helped the golem, but on missions with close range targets, it will still get hammered. I can remove everything but the large cap booster and x-l pith x shield booster and a nightmare has 1 min 40 seconds WITH t2 tachs. Golem has 1 min 41 seconds with just the shield booster and cap booster... WTF???
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 01:48:00 -
[4119] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070
What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters?
The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD? If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots.
The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl.
The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal. Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter.
P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins? |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 01:55:00 -
[4120] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070
I'm pretty sure the reason crystals don't work in siege is because they don't affect Capital Modules, not that they're nullified in Siege mode. |
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 02:55:00 -
[4121] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Hmmm TP bonus on Golem seems useless at least for lvl4s. There's no sense using torps when we got awesome cruise missiles, You fit rigors in rigs, kill BS's with Fury's, Cruisers and BC's die from one volley with t1 ammo...
With the TP bonus, a Domination TP and good TP skills the Rigor rigs aren't needed at all though.
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 02:56:00 -
[4122] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 I'm pretty sure the reason crystals don't work in siege is because they don't affect Capital Modules, not that they're nullified in Siege mode.
That is correct. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 03:07:00 -
[4123] - Quote
Jasmine Assasin wrote:Lair Osen wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 I'm pretty sure the reason crystals don't work in siege is because they don't affect Capital Modules, not that they're nullified in Siege mode. That is correct.
Thats actually kind of strange since Slaves still affect Capitals :S |

Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 03:51:00 -
[4124] - Quote
Bastion mode could use huge boost to cap recharge. Somewhere in the range of 200% to combat nuets. An extra turret would also be awesome. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
201
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 04:16:00 -
[4125] - Quote
At least the new animations show some promise. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 04:22:00 -
[4126] - Quote
I still say drop the 8th high and give that spot somewhere else on the ships. Maybe mids for golem and Vargur, ands lows for Pali and kronos |

Nyvi Ane
Interstellar Engineering Inc. Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 05:06:00 -
[4127] - Quote
I think CCP have a Choice to search a other way for marauders. Marauders can be the best pve ships but they don't must have the superior dps or agility.
Give the Marauders 2 special Maruader Items. 1. a area of Effekt Tractor Beam only for marauders 2. a Area of effekt Salvager
This two Item make a marauder superior and unique and give them a PVE advantage. Combine this with Bastion mode and u have a isk machine without touching dps or something.
And the PVP mates sorry u have bastion with 2 utility Slots.
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1939
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 07:01:00 -
[4128] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:At least the new animations show some promise.
We'll, we will get the Bastion mode and its animation for sure. What's moot is wether we will feel inclined to use them at all unless CCP Ytterbium & al get their stuff right and make a decent proposal.
Anyway, knowing CCP, it wouldn't be too unlikely that CCP Ytterbium & al had exhausted their allotted sprint time for marauders and were working on something else, and consequences be damned once iteration 2 goes into production and is released.  The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 08:20:00 -
[4129] - Quote
Sigras wrote: Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.
- Of course you don't have to, but why it is there? I think it is introduced just because to give marauders a pvp ability. Am I wrong? - Did I look like I have been so eager to transform into something stationary for Pve? Don't rush on me mate, I'm not the one putting bastion mode on Marauders. - For pve, since shield boost bonus is now gone, wouldn't it be harder for a mission runner ship to run missions? - For pvp, you fit mwd, and then mjd. Let me guess there is also a webber since there is a web bonus and a cap booster. There is a *chance* that you can transform into bastion or using mjd will take you out of logi range, so you also got a shield booster there. Now you got only one resist module for fitting with no shield boost bonus unless you transform into bastion and get your resists. You're as good as dead if you're tackled.
Sigras wrote: There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . .
First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont.
Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately.
Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong.
We are on the same side, but you're looking from a different angle.
- I don't want to fit MJD for sure. But my shield boost bonus is gone, I really need to get away. I was arguing with some other people about mjd usage and why I shouldn't use it. That was the point I was arguing. I don't want it. I am also arguing it is so needless on a Marauder that bonus "slot" shouldn't be wasted with mjd.
- This is a Marauder rebalancing thread, so I'm arguing about bonuses, which is perfectly normal for here. The case "why should I fit" or "why shouldn't" I fit is another subject. Again, I'm just proposing that something more relevant to mission runners instead of mjd bonus. There are ships already you can do better with mjd, in case your dominix example is also used by me in previous posts. Taking off shield boost bonus means "don't be in heat of battle from now on, you have to get away with that ship". Which also means "you are sniper from now on"
- Fleet for lvl 4 missions? Effectiveness? Man, this is not job to be done. This is a game. I'm here to have fun. The time when you run Serpentis Extravaganza for 1000th time, you will start looking for variations. I was just enjoying with my friends. This is the way I enjoy the game. Blacks and whites here. Not a good subject to argue about.
"you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur" - I've never said this. However, I said that anyone will be in trouble when: a- When the boost bonus is gone in conjunction with; b- Maintaining close combat with fireworks exploding around.
You have to get away with the new ship design. That was my problem. This is the Nth time I'm telling this. There are ships where you can snipe, and as your Dominix where you station in 100km away and drop sentries. Their playstyle is good for their role, why put marauders in that style?
Proposed changes doesn't reflect PvE playstyle for marauders. I don't know if I could show the point. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
470
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 08:35:00 -
[4130] - Quote
Nyvi Ane wrote:I think CCP have a Choice to search a other way for marauders. Marauders can be the best pve ships but they don't must have the superior dps or agility.
Give the Marauders 2 special Maruader Items. 1. a area of Effekt Tractor Beam only for marauders 2. a Area of effekt Salvager
This two Item make a marauder superior and unique and give them a PVE advantage. Combine this with Bastion mode and u have a isk machine without touching dps or something.
And the PVP mates sorry u have bastion with 2 utility Slots.
no.
If you want to salvage faster than anything else, use a noctis. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Nyvi Ane
Interstellar Engineering Inc. Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 10:27:00 -
[4131] - Quote
At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
470
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 10:37:00 -
[4132] - Quote
Nyvi Ane wrote:At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because?  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 10:45:00 -
[4133] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Nyvi Ane wrote:At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because? 
Because ccp is re-balancing Marauders and it is time to give a hand to its outdated salvaging mechanics. This is the correct post you're in. Welcome aboard. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
470
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:21:00 -
[4134] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Nyvi Ane wrote:At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because?  Because ccp is re-balancing Marauders for winter release and it is time to give a hand to its outdated salvaging mechanics. This is the correct thread you're in. Welcome aboard.
And what has that to do with built in AoE Salvagers and Tractor beams for the Marauder? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:30:00 -
[4135] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Nyvi Ane wrote:At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because?  Because ccp is re-balancing Marauders for winter release and it is time to give a hand to its outdated salvaging mechanics. This is the correct thread you're in. Welcome aboard. And what has that to do with built in AoE Salvagers and Tractor beams for the Marauder?
I'm not keen on the idea of AoE salvagers. However tractor beam usage definitely needs a look. Maybe some salvage drone bonus after that? |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
368
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:33:00 -
[4136] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Sigras wrote: Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.
- Of course you don't have to, but why it is there? I think it is introduced just because to give marauders a pvp ability. Am I wrong? - Did I look like I have been so eager to transform into something stationary for Pve? Don't rush on me mate, I'm not the one putting bastion mode on Marauders. - For pve, since shield boost bonus is now gone, wouldn't it be harder for a mission runner ship to run missions? - For pvp, you fit mwd, and then mjd. Let me guess there is also a webber since there is a web bonus and a cap booster. There is a *chance* that you can transform into bastion or using mjd will take you out of logi range, so you also got a shield booster there. Now you got only one slot to fit resist module. You've got no shield boost bonus. Unless you transform into bastion, you don't get your resists. Oh forgot warp disruption. Webbed guy ran off. Oh, forget the web, put a warp disruptor, but a needles web bonus? Put both, you have no resist before transform. See what I am arguing about? Not well designed for any situation. I love to use sentence "you will be dead yesterday", which suits well here. With a price tag of billions, something is not fitting in this scene. Sigras wrote: There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . .
First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont.
Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately.
Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong.
We are on the same side, but you're looking from a different angle. - I don't want to fit MJD for sure. But my shield boost bonus is gone, I really need to get away. I was arguing with some other people about mjd usage and why I shouldn't use it. That was the point I was arguing. I don't want it. I am also arguing it is so needless on a Marauder that bonus "slot" shouldn't be wasted with mjd. - This is a Marauder rebalancing thread, so I'm arguing about bonuses, which is perfectly normal for here. The case "why should I fit" or "why shouldn't" I fit is another subject. Again, I'm just proposing that something more relevant to mission runners instead of mjd bonus. There are ships already you can do better with mjd, in case your dominix example is also used by me in previous posts. Taking off shield boost bonus means "don't be in heat of battle from now on, you have to get away with that ship". Which also means "you are sniper from now on" - Fleet for lvl 4 missions? Effectiveness? Man, this is not job to be done. This is a game. I'm here to have fun. The time when you run Serpentis Extravaganza for 1000th time, you will start looking for variations. I was just enjoying with my friends. This is the way I enjoy the game. Blacks and whites here. Not a good subject to argue about. "you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur" - I've never said this. However, I said that anyone will be in trouble when: a- When the boost bonus is gone in conjunction with; b- Maintaining close combat with fireworks exploding around. You have to get away with the new ship design. That was my problem. This is the Nth time I'm telling this. There are ships where you can snipe, and as your Dominix where you station in 100km away and drop sentries. Their playstyle is good for their role, why put marauders in that style? Proposed changes doesn't reflect PvE playstyle for marauders. I don't know if I could show the point. as far as ive seen, they added the mjd bonus. you dont have to use it. but...if you did, you could jump every minute for better position. a paly with mega pulse in bastion can have up too 120km range with scorch and nasty tracking. by the time someone gets there, yer ready to jump away and do it again.
now, if u want close in, dont use bastion. throw some tackle on it, enjoy the 400k EHP and shoot all kinds of crap to death. the mjd, especially for missions running, will be a freakin handy thing. you can bounce out of range of the rats. then reign death and destruction down on them. for fighting sanctum rats, warp in at 50k then jump strait up. everything will be dead before you start taking damage.
pointed by sleepers or incursion rats and being killed? mjd and warp. they dont scram, they point. mjd works through that. align towards the warp point, mjd and warp. once u land, hit warp and yer gone.
the marauder play style you are asking about is about dictating range. i will mjd out and start firing back at you. you have the choice to try to make it to me through mega pulse 100km, or warping. if u do make it, i will mjd back or somewhere else. the ability to jump 100k every minute is a scary thing.
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
368
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:39:00 -
[4137] - Quote
i still think marauders need speed. they "maraud". get in fast and get out.
self sufficient or help take care of their group. they need scan probe bonuses to be able to fit em and use em right. less hp would be ok, if we had speed and smaller sig radius. kinda midway between bs and bc sig. the good resists, repping bonus. it needs a longer tractor beam too. out to 50k or more. maybe 200% bonus. a bonus to the % of salvage drones would be kewl as hell. would be a nice niche for them. drones should be good enough to salvage sleeper bs wrecks. not after 50 cycles, but in short order. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:49:00 -
[4138] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote: as far as ive seen, they added the mjd bonus. you dont have to use it. but...if you did, you could jump every minute for better position. a paly with mega pulse in bastion can have up too 120km range with scorch and nasty tracking. by the time someone gets there, yer ready to jump away and do it again.
now, if u want close in, dont use bastion. throw some tackle on it, enjoy the 400k EHP and shoot all kinds of crap to death. the mjd, especially for missions running, will be a freakin handy thing. you can bounce out of range of the rats. then reign death and destruction down on them. for fighting sanctum rats, warp in at 50k then jump strait up. everything will be dead before you start taking damage.
pointed by sleepers or incursion rats and being killed? mjd and warp. they dont scram, they point. mjd works through that. align towards the warp point, mjd and warp. once u land, hit warp and yer gone.
the marauder play style you are asking about is about dictating range. i will mjd out and start firing back at you. you have the choice to try to make it to me through mega pulse 100km, or warping. if u do make it, i will mjd back or somewhere else. the ability to jump 100k every minute is a scary thing.
I agree with you @scary part. You can find a lot of creative uses with that. As I posted at least thrice, you can do that with a sentry drone ship. I also have a Typhoon Fleet Issue that has nearly NO tank and also has a mjd on it. It doesn't tank, because there is no incoming damage. :) But that is a playstyle of a sentry drone ship/sniper. I wouldn't bother with getting loot with that ship.
However, while they are adding bonus to web/mjd, they're removing shield boost buff. So, without sacrificing my applied damage, I don't know how will I reach 400k ehp you mentioned? O.o My boost bonus will be crap, so I will need a SBA in order to compansate, which will cause me leaving my TP, again reducing my applied damage.
So, if balancing marauders means making them a good long range sniper, so be it. I will adapt to that. I just tried to tell there are already available ships for that role, exluding mjd bonus. Other than that, I don't see any "improvement" on my mission running with current proposal.
All I see is a nerf (at least for Vargur). |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:55:00 -
[4139] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:i still think marauders need speed. they "maraud". get in fast and get out. ... it needs a longer tractor beam too. out to 50k or more. maybe 200% bonus.
Hehehehehe :) *LOL*
You would be suprised that there are people around here who would try to maraud with trebuchet. This is a deja'vu I'm experiencing!
Try looking at this post I already posted, I believe you'll laugh hard ;) Then, follow the replies and my posts again. You can create a storyline from the posts.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3637471#post3637471
Have Fun! |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:34:00 -
[4140] - Quote
CCP could you please make any form of statement? Either:
1) Nice ideas we are listening to your feedback.
or
2) We have decided, further discussion is pointless.
We deserve at least that.
|
|

Nyvi Ane
Interstellar Engineering Inc. Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:52:00 -
[4141] - Quote
i know aoe tractor beam and salvage give a great advantage for a expensive PVE ship with many prerequistes.
Please understand u can switch only one factor in eve for pve isk/time. You choose a pirate BS (kill faster then a marauder) if you don't salvage that is great , if you want salvage take a noctis that is right.
But what the hell you do in a marauder less dps and speed to the one site. And against a noctis? Nobody loot a site or mission in a marauder with 3 Slots (2-1) that is horrible. The micro managmnet cost you time and this is not funny.
And now? Make a Marauder to a stone an loose isk/hour becaus u fly a mini cap. With a horrible Loot/Salvage option. Yes this new advantge is a must have ....
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 13:21:00 -
[4142] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Mole Guy wrote:i still think marauders need speed. they "maraud". get in fast and get out. ... it needs a longer tractor beam too. out to 50k or more. maybe 200% bonus.
Hehehehehe :) *LOL* You would be suprised that there are people around here who would try to maraud with trebuchet. This is a deja'vu I'm experiencing! Try looking at this post I already posted, I believe you'll laugh hard ;) Then, follow the replies and my posts again. You can create a storyline from the posts. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3637471#post3637471Have Fun!
Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force. Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.
Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations. They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines. They've been used in castle sieges. They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.
By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.
I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder. I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder. I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.
All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles. This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.
And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet.. |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1940
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 13:30:00 -
[4143] - Quote
According to our representative CSM Malcanis, the changes made to marauders have "obvious implications" that "will be made explicit soon enough".
That sounds like iteration 2 is what CCP actually intends to release... 
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |

Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 13:51:00 -
[4144] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:According to our representative CSM Malcanis, ...
Malcanis post to be found here and next post in that thread.
|

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
327
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 14:23:00 -
[4145] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force. Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.
Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations. They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines. They've been used in castle sieges. They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.
By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.
I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder. I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder. I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.
All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles. This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.
And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..
Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation.
By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving.
I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 14:38:00 -
[4146] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force. Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.
Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations. They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines. They've been used in castle sieges. They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.
By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.
I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder. I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder. I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.
All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles. This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.
And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..
Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation. By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving. I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.
I don't think things need to go drastic. A harder hitting ship like a HAC, good mobility, great local tank, the ability to get in close, deal a ton of quick damage, then get out. The balance point should be that it has a hard time sustaining its tank for long periods like a buffer ship with incoming reps, but its short term burst tank is excellent.
The first iteration was good for this, second less so, and all the first proposal needed was increased damage while in bastion mode.
|

Nyu Kaminari
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 15:48:00 -
[4147] - Quote
I am ready to be giggled at here but, why the hell not? 
99.5% Reduction of the power grid needs and 50% CPU reduction of the needs of Capitol Tractor Beams !!??
200+ KM pull range? Someone is getting mad! :P
Aside from that, I'll explain what little logic I have on this and why I think it should be there.
*Loot mission objective wrecks before those snotty little ninjas get there when you are using a sniping set-up. (You are a marauder pilot. You've earned it.)
*Shove all your pretty little wrecks into a nice pile so you can drop your shiny Noctis on top of it with 8 Salvager II's
*Make people rage in large gangs when all their floaty valuables drift away from their corpsicle at mach speed.
*keeping that CPU high so that people are not so inclined to use all 4 of them (post-bastion)
*Still makes the Noctis relevant due to it's salvaging bonuses and not every noctis pilot will have a marauder
*Keeps it's full effectiveness during 1 or even 2 uses of the MJD
*Because I am weird |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 16:07:00 -
[4148] - Quote
Rroff wrote: Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation.
By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving.
I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.
That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.
I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions. Just google Marauder definition.
Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.
However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding". Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either. You can "attack" or "raid" a castle. The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.
As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition. Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold. They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.
Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use. This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.
Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP. Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.
So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers. They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP. |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 16:24:00 -
[4149] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.
I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions. Just google Marauder definition.
Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.
However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding". Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either. You can "attack" or "raid" a castle. The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.
As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition. Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold. They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.
Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use. This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.
Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP. Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.
So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers. They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.
agreed, cant understand the confusion over this.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1429
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 16:35:00 -
[4150] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070
I don't think anyone with two braincells to rub together wants marauders to be oversized hacs
BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
92
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 16:51:00 -
[4151] - Quote
Guys, you can pretty much run HS L4s with a rusted wire coat hanger. The second iteration gives those hulls much more versatility, allows them the inclusion to fleet doctrines and revitalizes a ship type that was nothing more than a glorified red cross shooter of boredom.
And on top of that, they will still be better in PvE than now. What more would someone ask? |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
327
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 16:57:00 -
[4152] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.
I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions. Just google Marauder definition.
Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.
However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding". Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either. You can "attack" or "raid" a castle. The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.
As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition. Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold. They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.
Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use. This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.
Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP. Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.
So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers. They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.
You (in a general sense) need to look at what it means to maraud before reading too much into the definition of a marauder. Inherent to the definition of marauding comes the requirement in the vast majority of cases of being able to avoid or evade the current law or force controlling the area. Which pretty much means by extension you need hit and run tactics in the majority of cases.
TBH tho its mainly the versatility (if your making something thats supposed to be a marauder in the true sense) that I have issues with which kind of means making something that is to some degree a tech 3 ship - to quote your post "Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations." and so on with the rest of the examples you gave - being able to hit and run just one combination they need. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 17:02:00 -
[4153] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 I don't think anyone with two braincells to rub together wants marauders to be oversized hacs
/agreed.
I personally was pushing for iteration 1, myself being a lvl 4 mission runner, for a few reasons.
1) I sit still in my bss when running missions anyway. My nightmare doesn't move until everything is dead. 2) ewar immunity... Duh. 3) range buff... This will help to make torp golem a better ship. 4) non-stacking omni resists. This is perfect because, as I've mentioned, Marauders have cap issues. More resists=less boosting/repping=less cap usage + double rep per cycle= even less cap usage. 5) MJD bonus is nice for snip fits.
Things I would like to see changed from iteration 1.
1) MJD range bonus, with marauder specialty of selecting jump range of no less than 50km.
2) immunity to cap warfare - this is due to the fact that they can't receive cap, so they shouldn't be weak against cap warfare. All you gotta do to cap them out is apply enough pressure for long enough. That's like 2 minutes at most.
3) roll the omni resist bonus into the ship itself. Remove out of bastion t2 resists and/or rep/boost bonus. Also, apply this bonus only to their primary tank. IE.. Shield resists for the golem, and not all around resists.
4) tractor range bonus beyond what they have now. I would say the same range as the noctis is fair, and doesn't cut the noctis out, as the noctis still has a full 8 highs.
5) salvage bonus - the same reasoning as posted on 4.
6) lock range bonus when bastioned... No point in greater weapons ranges if you can't target anything out that far. Perhaps 25% as well. Would be around 140-150km.
7) remove the new 8th high and give an additional tank slot. IE. mid for golem. This is because our tank slots are much more valuable than our utility highs, and bastion is a utility module.
8) make them instantly anchor when entering bastion. This means you can't be bumped, and you can't jump/warp until the cycle ends.
9) effects of bastion should take effect instantly, even during transformation. End of cycle transformation should begin before the cycle ends, and should finish right at the end of the cycle. This is a bonus to everyone, letting you move right as the cycle ends, and also letting your opponent know to get in there, as your cycle is about to end and they need to catch you.
10) if you don't set the module to shut off, you do not transform, and your cycle repeats, just like any other module.. Thiseans you need to shut off the module before the transformation begins, or that you'll be stuck after the cycle still transforming without the bonuses.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 17:07:00 -
[4154] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.
I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions. Just google Marauder definition.
Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.
However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding". Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either. You can "attack" or "raid" a castle. The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.
As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition. Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold. They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.
Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use. This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.
Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP. Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.
So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers. They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.
You (in a general sense) need to look at what it means to maraud before reading too much into the definition of a marauder. Inherent to the definition of marauding comes the requirement in the vast majority of cases of being able to avoid or evade the current law or force controlling the area. Which pretty much means by extension you need hit and run tactics in the majority of cases. TBH tho its mainly the versatility (if your making something thats supposed to be a marauder in the true sense) that I have issues with which kind of means making something that is to some degree a tech 3 ship - to quote your post "Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations." and so on with the rest of the examples you gave - being able to hit and run just one combination they need.
That is kinda my point, but not entirely. A Marauder is there specifically for loot, reguardless of the tactics used. If you're not looting, you're not by definition, a marauder. Hence why I specified a new class called raiders or pillagers. Sure, marauders will still have the capability to attack and defend without looting, but that would be a niche situation, and not specific to their class or design goals.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
201
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 17:18:00 -
[4155] - Quote
The Winter announcement is tomorrow, so I guess we should expect iteration 2 to be final? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 17:50:00 -
[4156] - Quote
IMO, I could care less if the changes synergize with the definition of marauder, and don't think the type of rebalance should be made solely to match the class name.
However, I wouldn't be supportive of changes that otherwise negatively alter the play style of those already using it.
This being said, outside of bastion mode, I don't like the nerf to speed, tank, and drones. I hardly see why a mjd bonus should justify a reduction in effectiveness of other prop mods, esp for those who have no / limited intentions of using mjds.
Changes I think would be cool:
= Utility = I'm not a PvP guy, but I don't think that increasing the utility effectiveness would impact the PvP world all that much. I'd like things along the lines of: * 200% tractor bonus (max of 72km rng with t2, still less than noctis at 96? I believe) * I'm liking the extra utility high * some sort of salvage bonus would be cool * ability to accept + complete missions remotely (except those with mission items provided the mission item isn't already in the correct hanger)
= Bastion Module = I don't think it currently provides enough return for the drawbacks. A dmg bonus would be nice.
Alternatively, I would support exchanging the 100% decrease in movement + increased tank for an increase in movement and decrease in tank. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8077
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 18:36:00 -
[4157] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Guys, you can pretty much run HS L4s with a rusted wire coat hanger. The second iteration gives those hulls much more versatility, allows them the inclusion to fleet doctrines and revitalizes a ship type that was nothing more than a glorified red cross shooter of boredom.
And on top of that, they will still be better in PvE than now. What more would someone ask?
Its a ship with a special role that cannot move yet is getting close range weapon systems.
It doesn't work. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 18:59:00 -
[4158] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force. Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.
Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations. They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines. They've been used in castle sieges. They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.
By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.
I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder. I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder. I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.
All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles. This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.
And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..
Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation. By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving. I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.
Sometimes I really want to be a man with English as a native language. Or at least someone who can express his ideas better. It was all of me, but you mate, you became my mouth. |

Sigras
Conglomo
530
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 19:14:00 -
[4159] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Sigras wrote: Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.
- Of course you don't have to, but why it is there? I think it is introduced just because to give marauders a pvp ability. Am I wrong? yes, you are wrong, it is introduced to give marauders more options in PvP not to be used every time for PvP.
You're looking at marauders as a dreadnought where there is basically no reason to fly it unless you go into siege. Im seeing them as carriers . . . sometimes its right to go into triage; sometimes it makes your ship a flying coffin you have to use your brain to determine which kind of situation this is.
Shivanthar wrote:- For pve, since shield boost bonus is now gone, wouldn't it be harder for a mission runner ship to run missions? - For pvp, you fit mwd, and then mjd. Let me guess there is also a webber since there is a web bonus and a cap booster. There is a *chance* that you can transform into bastion or using mjd will take you out of logi range, so you also got a shield booster there. Now you got only one slot to fit resist module. You've got no shield boost bonus. Unless you transform into bastion, you don't get your resists. Oh forgot warp disruption. Webbed guy ran off. Oh, forget the web, put a warp disruptor, but a needles web bonus? Put both, you have no resist before transform. See what I am arguing about? Not well designed for any situation. I love to use sentence "you will be dead yesterday", which suits well here. With a price tag of billions, something is not fitting in this scene. clearly you have never flown a 100 km zealot sniper fleet . . . Range is your tank in those instances and so is speed. Now the zealots are strictly faster than the marauders but the marauders have a GTFO button that the zealots dont have; theyre called incomperables.
Shivanthar wrote:We are on the same side, but you're looking from a different angle.
- I don't want to fit MJD for sure. But my shield boost bonus is gone, I really need to get away. I was arguing with some other people about mjd usage and why I shouldn't use it. That was the point I was arguing. I don't want it. I am also arguing it is so needless on a Marauder that bonus "slot" shouldn't be wasted with mjd.
- This is a Marauder rebalancing thread, so I'm arguing about bonuses, which is perfectly normal for here. The case "why should I fit" or "why shouldn't" I fit is another subject. Again, I'm just proposing that something more relevant to mission runners instead of mjd bonus. There are ships already you can do better with mjd, in case your dominix example is also used by me in previous posts. Taking off shield boost bonus means "don't be in heat of battle from now on, you have to get away with that ship". Which also means "you are sniper from now on" why do you need to get away? all you need is a 600-700 DPS tank to do any level 4 mission . . . and it doesnt even need to be perma run. That was my original criticism of your post. If your marauder cant just sit in the middle of any level 4 and tank while you blow stuff up youre either incompetent or need to do some more skill training.
I dont have a boost bonus for armor or shields and I dont run away in missions either, I just sit and tank until everything around me is dead; yes I am running a deadspace armor repairer, but it costs less than 300 million meaning less than a marauder anyway and with no other faction mods on my ship, im hardly a loot pinata
Shivanthar wrote:- Fleet for lvl 4 missions? Effectiveness? Man, this is not job to be done. This is a game. I'm here to have fun. The time when you run Serpentis Extravaganza for 1000th time, you will start looking for variations. I was just enjoying with my friends. This is the way I enjoy the game. Blacks and whites here. Not a good subject to argue about. See I dont run missions for fun usually. Usually I run level 4 missions so I can afford to do the things that are fun. Therefore anything that reduces my effectiveness in missions means more time doing something that isnt fun in order to get to do what I want. |

Sigras
Conglomo
530
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 19:17:00 -
[4160] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:"you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur" - I've never said this. However, I said that anyone will be in trouble when: a- When the boost bonus is gone in conjunction with; b- Maintaining close combat with fireworks exploding around.
You have to get away with the new ship design. That was my problem. This is the Nth time I'm telling this. There are ships where you can snipe, and as your Dominix where you station in 100km away and drop sentries. Their playstyle is good for their role, why put marauders in that style?
Proposed changes doesn't reflect PvE playstyle for marauders. I don't know if I could show the point. As you probably read earlier, I dont snipe with my dominix in fact at most points im sitting at 0 m/s taking full damage from everything. If any battleship has trouble tanking a level 4 sitting in one spot then you're either doing something wrong, not doing enough damage, or are an idiot. |
|

Sigras
Conglomo
530
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 19:21:00 -
[4161] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:The Winter announcement is tomorrow, so I guess we should expect iteration 2 to be final? I disagree, the winter announcement could be as simple as announcing the theme of the winter expansion not anything so specific as that. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 19:55:00 -
[4162] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters? The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD? If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots. The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl. The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal. Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter. P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins?
Well my current fit (general module named applies, and we all know its officer/deadspace/faction, right?)
Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher, 3x Tractor Beam Mids: 2x Medium Shield Booster, 2x Invuln Fields, 2x Target Painters, 1x 100mn MWD Lows: 4x Ballistic Controls Rigs: Rigor, Semiconductor Memory Cell Drones: 10x Salvage Drone, 5x Hobgoblins
If we did the bastion update, simply I'd just drop the MWD for a MJD, since they essentially use the same fitting requirements, no real sense in dual propulsion Golem. But MJD would brick that fit, and losing the 7.5% per level shield boost bonus will brick the dual medium boosters from being able to tank effectively (even with the higher resists), so the only real way to run the dual medium setup is in Bastion mode, which with the bad torpedo range would make me turn it into a cruise missile ship, and lose my 1703.1 dps setup.
I would however, not by any means fit a webber, even if its bonused. Painters are more effective than webbers on a Golem because painter range is far superior, and the painter can make an assault frigate's butt look pretty big too.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 20:22:00 -
[4163] - Quote
Sigras wrote: yes, you are wrong, it is introduced to give marauders more options in PvP not to be used every time for PvP.
So, what I was telling is exactly same, we are arguing nonsense here. I said "give an ability for pvp", you say "for more options".
Sigras wrote: You're looking at marauders as a dreadnought where there is basically no reason to fly it unless you go into siege. Im seeing them as carriers . . . sometimes its right to go into triage; sometimes it makes your ship a flying coffin you have to use your brain to determine which kind of situation this is.
I'm not looking as anything, I always use Marauder in this game. Always. I just try(hope) to say it becomes less desirable in sit &combat or dive & combat because of the lesser boost amount.
Sigras wrote: clearly you have never flown a 100 km zealot sniper fleet . . . Range is your tank in those instances and so is speed. Now the zealots are strictly faster than the marauders but the marauders have a GTFO button that the zealots dont have; theyre called incomperables.
No I haven't been in zealot fleet. However, I have been in fly-by fleets couple times. I am against the idea for Marauders to turn "range" into type of "tank". There are ships for that already.
Sigras wrote: why do you need to get away? all you need is a 600-700 DPS tank to do any level 4 mission . . . and it doesnt even need to be perma run. That was my original criticism of your post. If your marauder cant just sit in the middle of any level 4 and tank while you blow stuff up youre either incompetent or need to do some more skill training.
"SIT&TANK every level for in a 600-700dps pulse tank fit". This claim is much bigger than anything else I've been trying to argue.
No, I strongly disagree. You're talking on the paper, but in practice it doesn't work that way. You cannot sit& tank in that fit on "every level 4 mission". Words came from your mouth anyway. I simply call this trolling unless you prove me wrong.
If you are not trolling very hard, I challenge you to get a marauder or even better, a vargur, since it is the ship I've been using, make its fit for 600-700dps pulse (remember "not have to be a perma" ?) tank. Take videos of these missions in random order, in the game's current state by doing sit&tank:
- Gone Berserk: Sounds easy? :) - Buzz kill: Sounds easy? - World's collide: all rooms except initial room. Simply finish mission by sit&tank. - Dread pirate scarlett: last room. - Angel extravaganza: bonus room. - And I really love to see "Cargo Delivery" without blitzing. Get the Cargo and sit&tank :P Nice bounty tough.
Come here in one peace, so I will admit I am incompetent. But m8, you really have to sit and tank! with your "600-700 dps" pulse fit without sacrificing extreme playtime on a mission. I challenge you!
Without exploding even once, If you do it with a Vargur with that proposed fit of max 700 dps tank pulse fit, I promise in front of everyone that I will give you my Typhoon fleet issue & fully fitted for sentry drones & ready to fly in-game.
Otherwise, I really hate people trolling about something they actually don't do but claiming it to be true. 600-700dps pulse tank every level 4 mission... meh... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 21:22:00 -
[4164] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters? The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD? If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots. The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl. The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal. Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter. P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins? Well my current fit (general module named applies, and we all know its officer/deadspace/faction, right?) Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher, 3x Tractor Beam Mids: 2x Medium Shield Booster, 2x Invuln Fields, 2x Target Painters, 1x 100mn MWD Lows: 4x Ballistic Controls Rigs: Rigor, Semiconductor Memory Cell Drones: 10x Salvage Drone, 5x Hobgoblins If we did the bastion update, simply I'd just drop the MWD for a MJD, since they essentially use the same fitting requirements, no real sense in dual propulsion Golem. But MJD would brick that fit, and losing the 7.5% per level shield boost bonus will brick the dual medium boosters from being able to tank effectively (even with the higher resists), so the only real way to run the dual medium setup is in Bastion mode, which with the bad torpedo range would make me turn it into a cruise missile ship, and lose my 1703.1 dps setup. I would however, not by any means fit a webber, even if its bonused. Painters are more effective than webbers on a Golem because painter range is far superior, and the painter can make an assault frigate's butt look pretty big too.
Agreed on the webber part. Also, bastion gives a 25% bonus to torp range, so while you would be stationary, javelin torps should be able to easily hit any mission npc by the time they get into orbit range.
However, there is no way in hell that you have 1700 dps. Even with a full flight of light drones, dual t2 damage rig (which is impossible), some insanely expensive ballistic controls, and max skills - it would still be impossible to get this much dps out of a torp golem. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
458
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 21:25:00 -
[4165] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Sigras wrote: yes, you are wrong, it is introduced to give marauders more options in PvP not to be used every time for PvP.
So, what I was telling is exactly same, we are arguing nonsense here. I said "give an ability for pvp", you say "for more options". Sigras wrote: You're looking at marauders as a dreadnought where there is basically no reason to fly it unless you go into siege. Im seeing them as carriers . . . sometimes its right to go into triage; sometimes it makes your ship a flying coffin you have to use your brain to determine which kind of situation this is.
I'm not looking as anything, I always use Marauder in this game. Always. I just try(hope) to say it becomes less desirable in sit &combat or dive & combat because of the lesser boost amount. Sigras wrote: clearly you have never flown a 100 km zealot sniper fleet . . . Range is your tank in those instances and so is speed. Now the zealots are strictly faster than the marauders but the marauders have a GTFO button that the zealots dont have; theyre called incomperables.
No I haven't been in zealot fleet. However, I have been in fly-by fleets couple times. I am against the idea for Marauders to turn "range" into type of "tank". There are ships for that already. Sigras wrote: why do you need to get away? all you need is a 600-700 DPS tank to do any level 4 mission . . . and it doesnt even need to be perma run. That was my original criticism of your post. If your marauder cant just sit in the middle of any level 4 and tank while you blow stuff up youre either incompetent or need to do some more skill training.
"SIT&TANK EVERY level four in a 600-700dps pulse tank fit". This claim is much bigger than anything else I've been trying to argue. No, I strongly disagree. You're talking on the paper, but in practice it doesn't work that way. You cannot sit& tank in that fit on "every level 4 mission". Words came from your mouth anyway. I simply call this trolling unless you prove me wrong. If you are not trolling very hard, I challenge you to get a marauder or even better, a vargur, since it is the ship I've been using, make its fit for 600-700dps pulse (remember "not have to be a perma" ?) tank. Take videos of these missions in random order, in the game's current state by doing sit&tank: - Gone Berserk: Sounds easy? :) - Buzz kill: Sounds easy? - World's collide: all rooms except initial room. Simply finish mission by sit&tank. - Dread pirate scarlett: last room. - Angel extravaganza: bonus room. - And I really love to see "Cargo Delivery" without blitzing. Get the Cargo and sit&tank :P Nice bounty tough. Come back here in one piece, so I will admit I am incompetent. But m8, you really have to sit and tank! with your "600-700 dps" pulse fit without sacrificing extreme playtime on a mission. I challenge you! Without exploding even once, If you do it with a Vargur (or with any marauder) with your proposed fit of max 600-700 dps pulse tank fit, I promise in front of everyone that I will give you my Typhoon fleet issue & fully fitted for sentry drones & ready to fly in-game. (Just please don't tell me you cannot fly marauders, that would be gross after all this talking.) Otherwise, I really hate people trolling about something they actually don't do but claiming it to be true. 600-700dps pulse sit&tank every level 4 mission... meh... Edit: I see 2-3 big explosions following a pod running away there if you're competent as much as you claim to be... Otherwise, that number is at least 4.
HERE HERE!!!!! Even if I fit a golem with pure tank, it's still going to have difficulty with sit and tank due to sig radius. Hell, even if I am pure tank and mobility it will still have issues. The only sub cap in game that could possibly sit and tank all lvl 4 missions is a pure tank rattlesnake, and even it would have issues tanking some missions |

Spacemover
Cathouse Club The Kadeshi
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 21:26:00 -
[4166] - Quote
At first i really liked the announcement of the Marauderchanges but reading some times about it makes me feel like "well vargur we had a lot of fun together but perhaps we should go different ways"... a change to the marauderclass is nice and long needed but this change is the wrong one and will destroy the classrole as it is now.
i love my vargur for ratting (well i hate ratting at all but at least doing it in the marauder was not as boring as in a carrier.) you can warp in your site and shot all the stuff down thats closer than 48 km, relock it after wrecking and tractorbeam it to you for salvaging. works as inteded and is in isk more effective than carrierratting for me in angelspace.
the bastionmodule makes some thins about that even more fun: the boosterbonus makes it nice for 10/10 solo i think. you only have to worry about sniping down all neutstuff, tanking should be no problem. (to make it even easier you can use an alt in a commandship to boost you :P )
-unhappily t2 resis are bad, the 30% resibonus before was better for omnitanking. -the +range on weapons: nice but i still only got 48km tractorrange so well kind of useless the + dmg from it is weak -the mjd that should be fittet would steal me some tank or one of my caprechargers so the fit isn-¦t stable anymore. you need the mjd because you are slower than ever. sucks. -1 minute no movement at all, no fleet support for you in that time: sorry marauders, no fleetfight with bastionmodule for you, byby -tankbonus gone forces you to use the bastionmodule... well sorry for repeating but that sucks -webbonus: well i never needed that webbonus in the first place, my vargur killed all before it came close and webbing a elitefrig wont help. also costs me another midslot i need for tanking
pve: so 2 medslots used for utilitycrap i didn-¦t need before on the vargur. therefore less tank because taking out the caprechargers won-¦t work well. so i can decide between less tank in shieldfit or nice tank but no damage at all in armorfit. well perhaps i should buy a macha or start earning money in that crappy carrier.
pvp: no fleet with bastionmodule because of no fleetrep, slower than before and still really low dmg. a machafleet is going to be more usefull and funier. (fast, more dps, not useless with scimis and still pretty strong with own shieldboosters) don-¦t move in pvp and you are dead. exspecially in an expensive t2 bs. |

Spacemover
Cathouse Club The Kadeshi
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 21:32:00 -
[4167] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: HERE HERE!!!!! Even if I fit a golem with pure tank, it's still going to have difficulty with sit and tank due to sig radius. Hell, even if I am pure tank and mobility it will still have issues. The only sub cap in game that could possibly sit and tank all lvl 4 missions is a pure tank rattlesnake, and even it would have issues tanking some missions
well a rattlesnake is nice but i think fit a vargur with gist x type x-large shield booster and three more expensive invus than i got and pyfa says you have a really bad tank thing in there. of course dps is a little bad only about 800 without drones but should have more hps/second than that rattlesnake. if it-¦s not enough use a claymore to boost yourself. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
459
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 22:00:00 -
[4168] - Quote
Spacemover wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: HERE HERE!!!!! Even if I fit a golem with pure tank, it's still going to have difficulty with sit and tank due to sig radius. Hell, even if I am pure tank and mobility it will still have issues. The only sub cap in game that could possibly sit and tank all lvl 4 missions is a pure tank rattlesnake, and even it would have issues tanking some missions
well a rattlesnake is nice but i think fit a vargur with gist x type x-large shield booster and three more expensive invus than i got and pyfa says you have a really bad tank thing in there. of course dps is a little bad only about 800 without drones but should have more hps/second than that rattlesnake. if it-¦s not enough use a claymore to boost yourself.
Rattlesnake can build a massive omni resist tank if you pure passive tank fit it.. Granted you have no dps, but that's not the point we're getting at. We're talking purely about tank here. The issue the Vargur is going to have is capacitor, and even if you solve that issue, it still doesn't tank as good as a rattlesnake. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 22:01:00 -
[4169] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: HERE HERE!!!!! Even if I fit a golem with pure tank, it's still going to have difficulty with sit and tank due to sig radius. Hell, even if I am pure tank and mobility it will still have issues. The only sub cap in game that could possibly sit and tank all lvl 4 missions is a pure tank rattlesnake, and even it would have issues tanking some missions
I'm fine about arguing stuff, but the way he implied not be able do all level 4s with pulse tank 700dps is "incompetent" or "idiot" is not fair. Well it was his proposal. I'll wait for the videos. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 22:12:00 -
[4170] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters? The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD? If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots. The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl. The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal. Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter. P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins? Well my current fit (general module named applies, and we all know its officer/deadspace/faction, right?) Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher, 3x Tractor Beam Mids: 2x Medium Shield Booster, 2x Invuln Fields, 2x Target Painters, 1x 100mn MWD Lows: 4x Ballistic Controls Rigs: Rigor, Semiconductor Memory Cell Drones: 10x Salvage Drone, 5x Hobgoblins If we did the bastion update, simply I'd just drop the MWD for a MJD, since they essentially use the same fitting requirements, no real sense in dual propulsion Golem. But MJD would brick that fit, and losing the 7.5% per level shield boost bonus will brick the dual medium boosters from being able to tank effectively (even with the higher resists), so the only real way to run the dual medium setup is in Bastion mode, which with the bad torpedo range would make me turn it into a cruise missile ship, and lose my 1703.1 dps setup. I would however, not by any means fit a webber, even if its bonused. Painters are more effective than webbers on a Golem because painter range is far superior, and the painter can make an assault frigate's butt look pretty big too. Agreed on the webber part. Also, bastion gives a 25% bonus to torp range, so while you would be stationary, javelin torps should be able to easily hit any mission npc by the time they get into orbit range. However, there is no way in hell that you have 1700 dps. Even with a full flight of light drones, dual t2 damage rig (which is impossible), some insanely expensive ballistic controls, and max skills - it would still be impossible to get this much dps out of a torp golem.
Ever try fitting Estamels Modified Torpedo launchers, 4x CN BCS's, and overloading the lot with max missile skills? 1703.1 DPS.
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/8519/0n2a.jpg |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
459
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 22:39:00 -
[4171] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs). Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it. And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070 What are you trading to fit that second booster? resists, cap boost, or target painters? The other question is, what would you be willing to give up in order to fit a MJD? If you say nothing, this is exactly why I suggest 8 mid slots. The problem with making Marauders in your face brawlers is part of what I mentioned... They don't have the cap to brawl, they don't have the speed to brawl, and their sig is way too big to brawl. The last thing you wanna do is take a massive ship and attempt to fight a smaller ship close up and personal. Even if you have the most dps, it probably won't matter. P.S. = Did they revert the range nerf of Javelin torps at some point in the last year? Or do I have a crappy version of EFT that's still telling me 65km with Javelins? Well my current fit (general module named applies, and we all know its officer/deadspace/faction, right?) Highs: 4x Torpedo Launcher, 3x Tractor Beam Mids: 2x Medium Shield Booster, 2x Invuln Fields, 2x Target Painters, 1x 100mn MWD Lows: 4x Ballistic Controls Rigs: Rigor, Semiconductor Memory Cell Drones: 10x Salvage Drone, 5x Hobgoblins If we did the bastion update, simply I'd just drop the MWD for a MJD, since they essentially use the same fitting requirements, no real sense in dual propulsion Golem. But MJD would brick that fit, and losing the 7.5% per level shield boost bonus will brick the dual medium boosters from being able to tank effectively (even with the higher resists), so the only real way to run the dual medium setup is in Bastion mode, which with the bad torpedo range would make me turn it into a cruise missile ship, and lose my 1703.1 dps setup. I would however, not by any means fit a webber, even if its bonused. Painters are more effective than webbers on a Golem because painter range is far superior, and the painter can make an assault frigate's butt look pretty big too. Agreed on the webber part. Also, bastion gives a 25% bonus to torp range, so while you would be stationary, javelin torps should be able to easily hit any mission npc by the time they get into orbit range. However, there is no way in hell that you have 1700 dps. Even with a full flight of light drones, dual t2 damage rig (which is impossible), some insanely expensive ballistic controls, and max skills - it would still be impossible to get this much dps out of a torp golem. Ever try fitting Estamels Modified Torpedo launchers, 4x CN BCS's, and overloading the lot with max missile skills? 1703.1 DPS. http://imageshack.us/a/img853/8519/0n2a.jpgEdit: Imported fit to EFT: http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/8015/dqxz.png
If that's your actual fit, then you have a lot more to worry about than dps and tank... I would be watching your back for fleets of 15 tornados that still cost way less than that fit. I would gladly trade less dps for that expensive of a fit.
Hell, you've got over 2 bil isk on that just in medium shield booster, let alone officer mods... |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 22:47:00 -
[4172] - Quote
Where's my locator agent?....
But seriously, who Overloads for PvE?? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
459
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 23:00:00 -
[4173] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Where's my locator agent?.... But seriously, who Overloads for PvE??
Better yet, who overloads when their ship and fit worth over 10 billion (probably) relies on those modules working... I wouldn't risk flying that expensive of a ship, and I sure as hell wouldn't risk overloading anything on it.
I would stay aligned, with an MJD and be ready to GTFO in a moments notice... Even if I was running a lvl 1 mission, lol |

ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors Insidious Empire
80
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 00:59:00 -
[4174] - Quote
"Hey guys lets give a ship designed to harrass and MJD away or remain completely stationary a bonus to webbing which is commonly only used between 10 and 15km."
I absolutely love the way the entire ship class is now a confused transvestite of a hull. |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 01:01:00 -
[4175] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Where's my locator agent?.... But seriously, who Overloads for PvE?? Better yet, who overloads when their ship and fit worth over 10 billion (probably) relies on those modules working... I wouldn't risk flying that expensive of a ship, and I sure as hell wouldn't risk overloading anything on it. I would stay aligned, with an MJD and be ready to GTFO in a moments notice... Even if I was running a lvl 1 mission, lol
Eve-Central says it's worth approximately $12.6 billion. That's one hell of a shiny loot pinata. I suggest you don't undock anytime soon. And, assuming your character 'NiteNinja' is flying that ship, unless you designed that character from day one to fly the Golem, I would guess the character needs more skills trained before flying that shiny of a ship.
But ConranAntoni IT"S SO SHINY.  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
463
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 01:03:00 -
[4176] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote:"Hey guys lets give a ship designed to harrass and MJD away or remain completely stationary a bonus to webbing which is commonly only used between 10 and 15km."
I absolutely love the way the entire ship class is now a confused transvestite of a hull.
/agreed
People seem to forget the capabilities of the pirate ships.
Marauders are getting a design that better suits them, yet many people want them to be designed pretty much the exact same way pirate ships are currently designed...
Advice.... buy a pirate ship |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 01:48:00 -
[4177] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:ConranAntoni wrote:"Hey guys lets give a ship designed to harrass and MJD away or remain completely stationary a bonus to webbing which is commonly only used between 10 and 15km."
I absolutely love the way the entire ship class is now a confused transvestite of a hull. /agreed People seem to forget the capabilities of the pirate ships. Marauders are getting a design that better suits them, yet many people want them to be designed pretty much the exact same way pirate ships are currently designed... Advice.... buy a pirate ship
Very true. To all you people who keep going on about how Marauder supposedly means the ability to fly around really fast, just buy a Machariel for gods sake. |

Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
63
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 03:26:00 -
[4178] - Quote
Return to the first iteration; the new version is a horrible mix of traits  "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
465
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 03:48:00 -
[4179] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:ConranAntoni wrote:"Hey guys lets give a ship designed to harrass and MJD away or remain completely stationary a bonus to webbing which is commonly only used between 10 and 15km."
I absolutely love the way the entire ship class is now a confused transvestite of a hull. /agreed People seem to forget the capabilities of the pirate ships. Marauders are getting a design that better suits them, yet many people want them to be designed pretty much the exact same way pirate ships are currently designed... Advice.... buy a pirate ship Very true. To all you people who keep going on about how Marauder supposedly means the ability to fly around really fast, just buy a Machariel for gods sake.
TBH, they want even more than this. They want Marauder tank, pirate dps, pirate mobility,pirate utility bonuses, bastion bonuses, and Marauder utility highs..
Basically, they want an extremely OP ship that should never exist in game.
The iteration 1 bonuses to bastion were amazing, and didn't really effect non-bastion mode, except for the nerfs that were given to the hull iteself, such as mobility, however, those nerfs need to be reverted and sensor strength buffed slightly to keep them weak, but stronger than they are now. With iteration 1, the negatives were well worth the benefits, and if you do like I just suggested with the base hull, then they could still be niche in pvp, but more niche than just bastion provides, while still giving bastion certain pvp situations where it would perform better than the base hull. It would also allow for those who don't like pve with the bastion to still perform the same they do now, but with better sensor strength.
Iteration 1 gave player more reason to accept the immobility penalty, while iteration 2 on gives you ewar immunity. With iteration one, at least marauders were usable even with the nerfs, but with iteration 2 marauders aren't usable in or out of bastion due to the hull nerfs.
So basically, revert nerfs to hull, add sensor strength, and revert back to iteration one. Also, possibly remove the 8th high and put it somewhere else, because 4 utility highs in pvp without the bastion module is extremely powerful and should not be allowed. All this means to pve player is that you give up a salvager for bastion, which in my mind is a fair trade. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 04:10:00 -
[4180] - Quote
Also, to anyone who cares, go back and read for a while.
There were 3 major complaints about iteration one. 1) lack of mobility 2) lack of dps bonus 3) lack of webs on Kronos and Pali
1) do like i suggested in post above and revert nerfs 2) dps bonus in bastion is just power creep 3) they were intended to be snip boats , but sure, they can have that back
Honestly, there was a lot less complaining about iteration 1 than iteration 2.
The one thing that can be agreed on in both iterations are that the nerfs to the hull are too much and don't really do anything for balancing bastion, but instead nerf the hull to force bastion and MJD.
Forcing players to use the modules is just cruel. It doesn't balance marauders, but instead makes marauders worse for the sake of using a module. |
|

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
125
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 04:22:00 -
[4181] - Quote
Why not just use the more heavily armored looking version of the model as the standard model, where they function much like a T1 BS but with T2 resists. Then instead of going into bastion mode they go into marauder mode, where they have the MJD bonus, and also an AB speed bonus, and MWD cap bonus, but the T2 resists drop to T1 resists. Maybe also a fitting reduction for MJD, MWD, and AB and an extra mid slot so that dual prop is common. Then you have a marauder that marauds.
Basically a ship that functions like a T1 BS with T2 resists, OR a T1 BS that is highly mobile. But not both at the same time. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
202
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 04:53:00 -
[4182] - Quote
After lengthy reflection and consideration, I think Iteration 2 is actually going to be ok.
Yes, we're losing the non-Bastion shield and repair bonus - but the T2 resists should offset this to some extent (perhaps more). And when in Bastion mode, we're actually getting a +100% shield and armor repair boost increase over the previous 37.5%. I suspect the webalizer bonus will be essential for any ship in Bastion mode (otherwise they'll never be able to remotely hit anything). I even like the MJD specialization, because this should make the class at least unique.
The only thing that the class might benefit from at this point is a small range to the webalizers per Marauder level, but even the exclusion of this wouldn't be a deal killer. I think when all is said and done, by the time these hit the battlefield they're going to be incredibly hard to kill. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
466
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 05:11:00 -
[4183] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:After lengthy reflection and consideration, I think Iteration 2 is actually going to be ok.
Yes, we're losing the non-Bastion shield and repair bonus - but the T2 resists should offset this to some extent (perhaps more). And when in Bastion mode, we're actually getting a +100% shield and armor repair boost increase over the previous 37.5%. I suspect the webalizer bonus will be essential for any ship in Bastion mode (otherwise they'll never be able to remotely hit anything). I even like the MJD specialization, because this should make the class at least unique.
The only thing that the class might benefit from at this point is a small range to the webalizers per Marauder level, but even the exclusion of this wouldn't be a deal killer. I think when all is said and done, by the time these hit the battlefield they're going to be incredibly hard to kill.
I've gone back a forth with it... I was a proponent for t2 resists over rep bonus back in the day, but that was before iteration one came around. And to admit, I didn't truly understand how t2 resists worked. I didn't realize that it does nothing to help you resist hole.
That said though, I think iteration1 is the way to go, BUT, without merging the hulls AT ALL!!! In fact, I still propose a little sensor buff to the base hulls.
If CCP feels that rep + bastion rep is too OP, they could simply make bastion 63.5% bonus instead of 100%. This would allow us to keep rep bonus out of bastion, and not have such a powerful bastion rep.
Alternately ( and probably more preferred by myself) is to wrap the 30% non-stacking resists into the hulls themselves, and remove the rep bonus entirely from the hull. I feel this would make them much better in both pve and pvp. |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3268
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 05:17:00 -
[4184] - Quote
Any idea when it's gonna hit SiSi? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
202
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 05:21:00 -
[4185] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I've gone back a forth with it... I was a proponent for t2 resists over rep bonus back in the day, but that was before iteration one came around. And to admit, I didn't truly understand how t2 resists worked. I didn't realize that it does nothing to help you resist hole.
That said though, I think iteration1 is the way to go, BUT, without nerfing the hulls AT ALL!!! In fact, I still propose a little sensor buff to the base hulls.
If CCP feels that rep + bastion rep is too OP, they could simply make bastion 63.5% bonus instead of 100%. This would allow us to keep rep bonus out of bastion, and not have such a powerful bastion rep.
Alternately ( and probably more preferred by myself) is to wrap the 30% non-stacking resists into the hulls themselves, and remove the rep bonus entirely from the hull. I feel this would make them much better in both pve and pvp.
Same here, but I think the lack of any additional updates is probably a clear indication that Iteration 2 is probably very close to what we'll end up with (if not exactly). I'd wager that Bastion and the new animations are set in stone, and since these are T2 ships T2 resists are probably a foregone conclusion at this point. So we pickup the T2 resists, a rapid MJD and a boost to webalizers for short-range setups on the base Marauder. And when in Bastion mode, EM immunity, a +266% shield and armor boost (which is even more when you factor in the resists) and improved weapons range. Not really seeing any downside here over the current Marauders, to be honest. With the T2 resists I actually think we'll net an additional medium or low slot (over and above one required for the MJD) just because we can probably get away with a single adaptive shield invulnerability or energized adaptive armor. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Royal NASA
Royal Federation Navy
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 07:53:00 -
[4186] - Quote
Hi my loving capsules, its me NASA .
Possible changers to Marauder Class ships. before you make a change please think!
*cost ratio GÇôfor ship and skills + time ratio to train for that ship*
please ADD to and not remove. please. no more take away alot and give back little. just ad more.
I thought that having the above done would supply a capsular with the GÇÿElite Battle shipGÇÖ when in fact in does not. 100% bonus to DPS damage dealt GÇô100% withdrawal of weapons. ONLY 7 high slots with no special role for 3 high slot non weapons except for Small Tractor Beam.
the only great thing is Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to repair amount. but wait 1 of each faction T-1 class Combat Battleship has the same, that's good and more HP too. so what's the bonus?
remove the 7.5 rep per lvl and the ship will blow up .. please just add ad ad . think big all Marauder Class ships.should have 8 high 8 med and 8 low slots . Rember *cost ratio GÇôfor ship and skills + time ratio to train for that ship*  with regards Me - NASA . 
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 08:16:00 -
[4187] - Quote
English. Learn it... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Royal NASA
Royal Federation Navy
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 08:23:00 -
[4188] - Quote
I Do try to speak English.
but thank you your ever so kind. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 08:31:00 -
[4189] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I've gone back a forth with it... I was a proponent for t2 resists over rep bonus back in the day, but that was before iteration one came around. And to admit, I didn't truly understand how t2 resists worked. I didn't realize that it does nothing to help you resist hole.
That said though, I think iteration1 is the way to go, BUT, without nerfing the hulls AT ALL!!! In fact, I still propose a little sensor buff to the base hulls.
If CCP feels that rep + bastion rep is too OP, they could simply make bastion 63.5% bonus instead of 100%. This would allow us to keep rep bonus out of bastion, and not have such a powerful bastion rep.
Alternately ( and probably more preferred by myself) is to wrap the 30% non-stacking resists into the hulls themselves, and remove the rep bonus entirely from the hull. I feel this would make them much better in both pve and pvp. Same here, but I think the lack of any additional updates is probably a clear indication that Iteration 2 is probably very close to what we'll end up with (if not exactly). I'd wager that Bastion and the new animations are set in stone, and since these are T2 ships T2 resists are probably a foregone conclusion at this point. So we pickup the T2 resists, a rapid MJD and a boost to webalizers for short-range setups on the base Marauder. And when in Bastion mode, EM immunity, a +266% shield and armor boost (which is even more when you factor in the resists) and improved weapons range. Not really seeing any downside here over the current Marauders, to be honest. With the T2 resists I actually think we'll net an additional medium or low slot (over and above one required for the MJD) just because we can probably get away with a single adaptive shield invulnerability or energized adaptive armor.
It is actually amazing for those different iterations, like to iteration I:
*Why are you taking away the paladins/kronos web-bonus, oyu used to fit two of them and blap frigs at 10m* *Pls abandon the tank bonus and give them them more damage, cause Level 4s / Anoms deal nearly no damage at all* *Pls give them T2 resists to make them viable in incursion*
and then to iteration II:
*What the hell is that crippled web-bonus, we never used a web on any marauder ever !!1! they are pure sniping boats, CCP fail* *Wtf you're taking away the 7.5% rep-bonus. Marauders ****, can't tank a level 4 anymore* *Why are you giving them T2-resists, they massively lose in tank that way. My Paladin ow got weakest resist thermal and that's not good for domain-missioning... you suck*
Honestly, if people think that either iteration I or II would be a step back compared to the old ones, you are probably bad at pixelnavigating and should feel that way. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 08:42:00 -
[4190] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:It is actually amazing for those different iterations, like to iteration I:
*Why are you taking away the paladins/kronos web-bonus, oyu used to fit two of them and blap frigs at 10m* *Pls abandon the tank bonus and give them them more damage, cause Level 4s / Anoms deal nearly no damage at all* *Pls give them T2 resists to make them viable in incursion*
and then to iteration II:
*What the hell is that crippled web-bonus, we never used a web on any marauder ever !!1! they are pure sniping boats, CCP fail* *Wtf you're taking away the 7.5% rep-bonus. Marauders ****, can't tank a level 4 anymore* *Why are you giving them T2-resists, they massively lose in tank that way. My Paladin ow got weakest resist thermal and that's not good for domain-missioning... you suck*
Honestly, if people think that either iteration I or II would be a step back compared to the old ones, you are probably bad at pixelnavigating and should feel that way.
As I said, T2 resists alone make them a lot more formidable. There's also the extra high slot that players can use for something other than the Bastion module. And two of the classes now get a stasis web bonus where none existed before for short-range setups. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 08:44:00 -
[4191] - Quote
What I often see in this thread is complaints about losing the web and complains about re-instating them. Then complaints about active tank buff and compalints about active tank nerf.
Interestingly enough, this time I am not ready to dismiss this as player fallacy. I think these schizoid reactions are to be expected because CCP is trying to make all Marauders work in more or less the same way. However when Marauders are cureently very different from each other in the way they tank and gank, when you iterate horizontal across the board changes you will definately create substantial imbalances.
It is normal that palyers expecting CCP to iterate a "solution" for their ships react badly when 50% of them see their current set up nerfed.
Perhaps CCP should ponder on the general powercreep on all hulls in 2013 and proceed to do the same with Marauders. +50% dps in bastion or some such ****, I d expect... |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 10:05:00 -
[4192] - Quote
Darling Hassasin wrote:What I often see in this thread is complaints about losing the web and complains about re-instating them. Then complaints about active tank buff and compalints about active tank nerf.
Interestingly enough, this time I am not ready to dismiss this as player fallacy. I think these schizoid reactions are to be expected because CCP is trying to make all Marauders work in more or less the same way. However when Marauders are cureently very different from each other in the way they tank and gank, when you iterate horizontal across the board changes you will definately create substantial imbalances.
It is normal that palyers expecting CCP to iterate a "solution" for their ships react badly when 50% of them see their current set up nerfed.
Perhaps CCP should ponder on the general powercreep on all hulls in 2013 and proceed to do the same with Marauders. +50% dps in bastion or some such ****, I d expect...
I fully agree. Besides as many have said before me: the problems derives form the fact that marauders in their current state do not have a clearly defined role. This is why we ***** about their bonuses. They are just bad or good depending on what you want this ship to do. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 10:29:00 -
[4193] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: TBH, they want even more than this. They want Marauder tank, pirate dps, pirate mobility,pirate utility bonuses, bastion bonuses, and Marauder utility highs..
Basically, they want an extremely OP ship that should never exist in game.
I think what u meant to say is that ppl who took the extra time to train into marauders, don't want to see their pve effectiveness drop. If CCP is planning on a general buff as indicated by the first iteration bastion mode, pg on vargur, mjd bonus, etc, give the pve ppl who trained for it better pve performance.
It feels like they are making some of the pve loadouts less effective in order attempt to give them a pvp role. If you assume the majority of ppl who trained and use marauders did so for pve, its kinda a slap in the face.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 11:44:00 -
[4194] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: TBH, they want even more than this. They want Marauder tank, pirate dps, pirate mobility,pirate utility bonuses, bastion bonuses, and Marauder utility highs..
Basically, they want an extremely OP ship that should never exist in game.
I think what u meant to say is that ppl who took the extra time to train into marauders, don't want to see their pve effectiveness drop. If CCP is planning on a general buff as indicated by the first iteration bastion mode, pg on vargur, mjd bonus, etc, give the pve ppl who trained for it better pve performance. It feels like they are making some of the pve loadouts less effective in order attempt to give them a pvp role. If you assume the majority of ppl who trained and use marauders did so for pve, its kinda a slap in the face.
bingo
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 12:07:00 -
[4195] - Quote
Golem:
The web bonus would be pointless on it, since conflicts with a painter fitting and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus would be far more useful. The speed nerf is very contra productive, a torpedo BS balanced on javelin range is useless since it offers nothing over a CM fitting in normal game play and with the much lower speed it can't move within range quick enough to apply faction or rage torpedo DPS.
Vargur
The web bonus on it is also mostly wasted, in normal game play you stay out of web range with it and the speed nerf makes it far less viable than the mach, because it takes a lot longer to adjust ranges(both with artillery and auto cannons). Another tracking or optimal bonus would be far more useful to improve it with artillery and give it a slightly different focus than the mach.
Kronos
Removing the sentry's will wreck the dps with rails(and it is mostly a sentry/rail platform, the vindicator does blasters just better) and the speed nerf hits it hard for repositioning(no 100km jumps just gimp your dps, most of the time you want to move it within 30-50km range to the spawn to apply max dps with sentry's and rails).
Paladin
While the optimal bonus is perfect, a tracking bonus would probably the better option, given that it is the best marauder already. Also the drone bay nerf kills the sentry potential.
Suggestions:
- add the drone bay nerf, mjd gimmick and speed nerf directly to the bastion module, this way the ships don't lose a lot of potential for the ability to fit a module that you might more often then not never use - give the Vargur, Golem and Paladin 25m-¦ spare drone bay over her current value, to improve her ability to utilize sentry's - give the Kronos 125/275 drone bay to utilize 2 waves of sentry's, so you can flexible adapt to range, similar as with the rails - give the Kronos the optimal and tracking bonus to drones, like on the domi, instead of the falloff one, since it doesn't add much to rails and blasters are very situational in pve - give the Golem at last as much speed as the new navy raven and increase the missile velocity bonus a bit to improve torp range and give people the option to fit another damage application rig instead of range rig - give the Golem a torpedo explosion velocity bonus(yes just for torpedo's) to make torpedo fittings on it viable again - give the Vargur another tracking or optimal bonus instead of the web one, to make more different to the mach for pve - give the Vargur and Golem a CPU reduction bonus to shield transporters, so they can utilize spider tanking similar as to the armor marauders - give them a 25% cap reduction and 100% range improvement to cap transfers, remote reps and shield transporters, to further improve her already preferable use in spider tanking gangs compared to faction BS - give them a 25-50% cap use reduction for micro warp drives, because the mwd is more often than not the bigger cap drain then the tank many pve scenarios - give the Kronos and Paladin back the 90% web, the bonus came from the marauders(and already nerfed down from a bonus that did let you do pve without light drones to standard pre QR webs) and the only reason it landed on the serpentis ships was because they where completely useless without it, like any point blank ship that can't apply dps at point blank(aka any other blaster hull that is still dysfunctional at point blank in favour of watering the concept down with minmatar influences over the years) and it is very useful in group pve(to pin down targets), to keep up sentry and turret damage up(very important for the Kronos if you ever pve in mini space) and helps incredible for incursions Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 12:28:00 -
[4196] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Paladin
While the optimal bonus is perfect, a tracking bonus would probably the better option, given that it is the best marauder already. Also the drone bay nerf kills the sentry potential.
Why the hell would you want a tracking bonus instead of an optimal one? MJD + Tachyons = no need for tracking. The optimal bonus allows to use faction Multifrequency at longer ranges = more DPS.
To be honest, the Paladin is the best thought out Marauder, except his T2 resists which are useless against his pirate NPC enemies (Sansha, Blood Raiders). If this goes live, the Vargur would be best suited to mission in Amarr Space, and the Paladin, well, only in Rogue Drones nullsec.
The web strength bonus still doesn't make sense with the other bonuses (MJD and range), but if it's the price to pay for the incursion runners to be happy, so be it. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 13:18:00 -
[4197] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:The Djego wrote:Paladin
While the optimal bonus is perfect, a tracking bonus would probably the better option, given that it is the best marauder already. Also the drone bay nerf kills the sentry potential. Why the hell would you want a tracking bonus instead of an optimal one? MJD + Tachyons = no need for tracking. The optimal bonus allows to use faction Multifrequency at longer ranges = more DPS. To be honest, the Paladin is the best thought out Marauder, except his T2 resists which are useless against his pirate NPC enemies (Sansha, Blood Raiders). If this goes live, the Vargur would be best suited to mission in Amarr Space, and the Paladin, well, only in Rogue Drones nullsec. The web strength bonus still doesn't make sense with the other bonuses (MJD and range), but if it's the price to pay for the incursion runners to be happy, so be it.
Because the optimal bonus on it is probably to powerful on a hull with the damage bonus, because it is actually worth more than 3(37.5% one) 4 slots(10% one) on your ship after stacking, while the tracking bonus is worth about 1.5 slots. Also for me there is zero reason to fit a mjd on it for pve, because it just gimps your dps and a mwd is the better option for nearly every situation. I think most people might underestimate the value of the tracking bonus, given how good my navy Apoc with puls and my tachyon NM performs with it, I like it a lot.
I would disagree with the T2 resists since they are optimal for omni tanking(no real big hole now) and laser damage is extremely easy to tank with armor anyway. The Vargur is nowhere close to the pve speed of the Paladin in Amarr space and this is the main selling point. Tank is not a problem for me currently(I use 2 TS EANMs a medium armor repper on mine) and I hardly believe many people that not over tank her marauder today will miss the active tank bonus.
The web bonus is very handy for pve in minmatar space and multi boxing L4 or WH to, like putting a 90% web on a frig and shoot it with a ship that actually can track and lock quickly(like my navy apoc) to completely go with sentry drones instead of waiting on your light drones to do the job(what speeds pve up immensely). The only reason it got not utilized on the paladin so much for L4 is that it is not needed for most L4 in amarr space, in mini or gallente space is is very handy.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:09:00 -
[4198] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
Vargur
The web bonus on it is also mostly wasted, in normal game play you stay out of web range with it and the speed nerf makes it far less viable than the mach, because it takes a lot longer to adjust ranges(both with artillery and auto cannons). Another tracking or optimal bonus would be far more useful to improve it with artillery and give it a slightly different focus than the mach.
Kronos
Removing the sentry's will wreck the dps with rails(and it is mostly a sentry/rail platform, the vindicator does blasters just better) and the speed nerf hits it hard for repositioning(no 100km jumps just gimp your dps, most of the time you want to move it within 30-50km range to the spawn to apply max dps with sentry's and rails).
I don't feel fit enough to comment your suggestions, though those two:
The Vargur might be completely unique in having all the projection boni possible, optimal I beleive being the one there is lacking. I don't see much similiarity berween current/proposed Vargur and Machariel, besides both using projectlies. The Vargur's tank is on another level compared to the machariel, and so is it regarding mobility. While the machariel has always been fast, far hitting and equalizing tracking issues by piloting, so is the Vargur (both currently cause PG, aswell as upcoming cause mobility restrictions) not remotely fit to compete with the Machariel on that term. It will just move completely differently.
As for Kronos/Vindicator, neither do they look alike. Regarding a Blasterfit (using Null as default ammo, guess pve is same as pvp there) you got a discrepancy of (while comparable tracking) a Kronos, not moving, hitting out with blasters to 20 optimal and 65 falloff, compared to a vindicator with 15 optimal and 25 falloff. Really similiar. This though is taking into account that a 2-slot tank will take you through ANY L4 mission and will tank any sanctum, while the vindicator most likely needs a shieldfit to achieve the same. Switching the Kronos to be yet another droneboat would be desastrous, as it would be nothing but a highsec archon. And an amazing one on top of that. Nono, I don't want such a ship to exist.
And the webbing bonus useless on golem/vargur? Great, don't use the webs. Just don't replace it with those suggestions... as most of your suggestions listed above (without further commenting) are just ISK/hour-wishes.
Mean I was jiggling about that 90% web and then a ship that actually has tracking, like a NApoc. Totally not trolling.
I'd agree that I'm near exclusively watching it regarding pvp-applications, but 'balancing' for pve/incursions is completely futile anyways. There will be one ship that is better compared to the others, and that one will be flown. The Unsmart to be recognized by not flying that ship. (As the current Vindi/Nightmare/Machariel monotony for incursions, or summer's megathron or domiballs, or the current Ishtar-situation with assign-exploits left and right) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:24:00 -
[4199] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Golem: The web bonus would be pointless on it, since conflicts with a painter fitting and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus would be far more useful. The speed nerf is very contra productive, a torpedo BS balanced on javelin range is useless since it offers nothing over a CM fitting in normal game play and with the much lower speed it can't move within range quick enough to apply faction or rage torpedo DPS.
Yes, an explosion velocity bonus is potentially more useful - because it benefits both short and long-range weapons. A stasis web bonus hardly conflicts with a target painter bonus, as a reduction in target speed has the same (if not more) benefit than an increase in explosion velocity. With an explosion velocity bonus of 25-37.5%, there would be absolutely no reason to run anything other than a cruise missile fit on a Golem (because with the target painter bonus it could literally pick-off anything on the field from extreme range in Bastion mode). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Chloe Cartier
Angelitos Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:33:00 -
[4200] - Quote
Deleted. I need to learn the read the full changes before making comment :D |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
468
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:38:00 -
[4201] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:The Djego wrote:Golem: The web bonus would be pointless on it, since conflicts with a painter fitting and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus would be far more useful. The speed nerf is very contra productive, a torpedo BS balanced on javelin range is useless since it offers nothing over a CM fitting in normal game play and with the much lower speed it can't move within range quick enough to apply faction or rage torpedo DPS. Yes, an explosion velocity bonus is potentially more useful - because it benefits both short and long-range weapons. A stasis web bonus hardly conflicts with a target painter bonus, as a reduction in target speed has the same (if not more) benefit than an increase in explosion velocity. With an explosion velocity bonus of 25-37.5%, there would be absolutely no reason to run anything other than a cruise missile fit on a Golem (because with the target painter bonus it could literally pick-off anything on the field from extreme range in Bastion mode).
Well, it could pick off targets with extreme range, but we already can't lock targets as far as we can shoot CMs, and I'm sure as he'll not giving up more slots for targeting range.
That said, I think all these bonuses kinda gimps the golem. I say this because we now have 2 mids for TPs, 1mjd, 1cap booster, 1 shield booster, leaving just one slot for resists, and maybe rigs for resists.
I still STRONGLY feel that we should give up the 8th high for an 8th mid.. We aren't going to be fitting webs on our ships more than likely, but we still don't have enough mids to make a good load out.
The Kronos and Pali are less gimped in this case, but even they could probably go for an extra mid as well. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:50:00 -
[4202] - Quote
Paladin - loses 12.5% stasis web, gains 37.5% optimal range Golem - gains 37.5% stasis web Kronos - loses 12.5% stasis web, gains 50% falloff Vargur - gains 37.5% stasis web
I'm really not seeing the downside here... Is there honestly any Marauder owners that wouldn't give up 12.5% stasis web for a +37.5% optimal or +50% falloff? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 15:03:00 -
[4203] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Well, it could pick off targets with extreme range, but we already can't lock targets as far as we can shoot CMs, and I'm sure as he'll not giving up more slots for targeting range.
That said, I think all these bonuses kinda gimps the golem. I say this because we now have 2 mids for TPs, 1mjd, 1cap booster, 1 shield booster, leaving just one slot for resists, and maybe rigs for resists.
I still STRONGLY feel that we should give up the 8th high for an 8th mid.. We aren't going to be fitting webs on our ships more than likely, but we still don't have enough mids to make a good load out.
The Kronos and Pali are less gimped in this case, but even they could probably go for an extra mid as well.
Drop a ballistic control for a passive signal amplifier and you solve the range problems. As for the Golem being "gimped", by my count you still have 2 slots available for resists (passive EM and adaptive invulnerability). With the significant reduction to the MJD cooldown, it effectively replaces the need for an afterburner or MWD. Let's not forget that with the T2 resists this easily puts you into the high 80's and 90's - so you could probably run a medium or large Deadspace shield booster cap stable (that frees up another slot). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
160
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:07:00 -
[4204] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:The Vargur might be completely unique in having all the projection boni possible, optimal I beleive being the one there is lacking. I don't see much similiarity berween current/proposed Vargur and Machariel, besides both using projectlies. The Vargur's tank is on another level compared to the machariel, and so is it regarding mobility. While the machariel has always been fast, far hitting and equalizing tracking issues by piloting, so is the Vargur (both currently cause PG, aswell as upcoming cause mobility restrictions) not remotely fit to compete with the Machariel on that term. It will just move completely differently.
The Vargur is mostly suffering from being to similar to the mach. If you fit a mwd on it(what you should) and use it like a mach, both perform very similar(while the Vargur is slower, packs less dps, takes ages to lock stuff and is easy to jam). The tank is not that different as raw eft numbers might suggest, thx to the very low signature of the Mach and the high speed, damage intake is very similar for most applications outside uber tank with OGB, drugs and implants, what is fairly useless for most PVP and PVE applications.
Lloyd Roses wrote:As for Kronos/Vindicator, neither do they look alike. Regarding a Blasterfit (using Null as default ammo, guess pve is same as pvp there) you got a discrepancy of (while comparable tracking) a Kronos, not moving, hitting out with blasters to 20 optimal and 65 falloff, compared to a vindicator with 15 optimal and 25 falloff. Really similiar. This though is taking into account that a 2-slot tank will take you through ANY L4 mission and will tank any sanctum, while the vindicator most likely needs a shieldfit to achieve the same. Switching the Kronos to be yet another droneboat would be desastrous, as it would be nothing but a highsec archon. And an amazing one on top of that. Nono, I don't want such a ship to exist.
Blasters are terrible for most pve stuff(and honestly in pvp to) and it doesn't get better if you can't move at all once you want to utilize the better tank or range(and if you want to relay on null you should have fitted rails in the first place). The major thing of the Kronos back in the days(before CCP watered down hybrids and gallente) was that it could utilize active tank and rails(that was very hard with the fitting on other mega hulls) and it needs the sentry dps to archive acceptable dps levels(like around 1.2k at 30km), compared to the other marauders. Combining high tracking and range for both rails and sentry's is far more useful for both pvp and pve instead of just another blaster ship camping undocks in empire(because this is exactly what you can do in a blaster BS that goes 800m/s at best and has to still still if it want to tank).
Also as a little tip, whenever you want to move you lose 50% of your tank, what limits your ability's to get out of high dps range or in high dps range considerable, meaning you need to tank more because you can't move, so I in my eyes tanks will to change much and I can do with a 3 slot tank just fine today.
Lloyd Roses wrote:And the webbing bonus useless on golem/vargur? Great, don't use the webs. Just don't replace it with those suggestions... as most of your suggestions listed above (without further commenting) are just ISK/hour-wishes.
Why would you drop a painter for a Web on the Golem? Missiles are not affected by transversal(meaning you don't get massive dps loss at close range anyway) and by the time the target is slow enough that you can do full damage it is mostly dead. A explosion velocity bonus and high speed don't only help for pve, they are incredible effective for nuking fast stuff outside of web range(like tier 3 BCs) and give you the ability to utilize the Golem properly(not by brawling stuff down like with a blaster hull but by using kitting and speed).
Imagine you use the Vargur for anything you couldn't do today in pvp with a maelstrom would you ever fit a web? I know I wouldn't, because there is no real reason to utilize a medium range ship at point blank, at least if it doesn't end up with the brick treatment.
Lloyd Roses wrote:I'd agree that I'm near exclusively watching it regarding pvp-applications, but 'balancing' for pve/incursions is completely futile anyways. There will be one ship that is better compared to the others, and that one will be flown. The Unsmart to be recognized by not flying that ship. (As the current Vindi/Nightmare/Machariel monotony for incursions, or summer's megathron or domiballs, or the current Ishtar-situation with assign-exploits left and right)
First most Marauders are used for PVE, because they are designed for this(poorly in many ways) and making them gimmick ships for pvp instead actually good at it seams pretty stupid to me. I have the feeling you, similar to Malcanis, still can't grasp the concept that shooting crosses or squares on the overview is basically the same thing, regarding tracking and weapon mechanics and that everybody that posts about marauders got no clue about pvp(what is hilarious in my eyes). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:07:00 -
[4205] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: TBH, they want even more than this. They want Marauder tank, pirate dps, pirate mobility,pirate utility bonuses, bastion bonuses, and Marauder utility highs..
Basically, they want an extremely OP ship that should never exist in game.
I think what u meant to say is that ppl who took the extra time to train into marauders, don't want to see their pve effectiveness drop. If CCP is planning on a general buff as indicated by the first iteration bastion mode, pg on vargur, mjd bonus, etc, give the pve ppl who trained for it better pve performance. It feels like they are making some of the pve loadouts less effective in order attempt to give them a pvp role. If you assume the majority of ppl who trained and use marauders did so for pve, its kinda a slap in the face.
this. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:16:00 -
[4206] - Quote
The Djego wrote:The web bonus is very handy for pve in minmatar space and multi boxing L4 or WH to, like putting a 90% web on a frig and shoot it with a ship that actually can track and lock quickly(like my navy apoc) to completely go with sentry drones instead of waiting on your light drones to do the job(what speeds pve up immensely). The only reason it got not utilized on the paladin so much for L4 is that it is not needed for most L4 in amarr space, in mini or gallente space is is very handy.
The forum ate my reply with a 404, so I'll make a TL;DR.
Missions in minmatar space with a laser-boat = not clever. MJD = Easy snipe with tachyons, no need for web nor tracking, optimal bonus = handy in that case.
Can't see the point in gimping your cap with a MWD, when you can go to any Acceleration gate with two well done jumps of MJD. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
160
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:17:00 -
[4207] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Paladin - loses 12.5% stasis web, gains 37.5% optimal range Golem - gains 37.5% stasis web Kronos - loses 12.5% stasis web, gains 50% falloff Vargur - gains 37.5% stasis web
I'm really not seeing the downside here... Is there honestly any Marauder owners that wouldn't give up 12.5% stasis web for a +37.5% optimal or +50% falloff?
The downside is a massive speed and drone bay nerf, reducing the dps and ignoring well know issues of the particular hulls(damage shortage of the Kronos, Vargur to similar to the Mach, Golem more usefull with CMs instead with Torps etc.).
As for the earlier question about the web, ofc it collides with the painter bonus, since every slot you use on a web you can't use for a painter. Ofc the web got the bigger benefit(after like 15s slowing stuff down) but the application is not instant like with painters and you will most of the time not get till web range(because the target is dead anyway or you get kitted in pvp, because you sit in brick, even for BS standards). The idea is to only add the explosion velocity bonus to torpedo's(because they are kind of bad since the last CM update) and make the Golem again more viable with trops.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
291
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:25:00 -
[4208] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Paladin - loses 12.5% stasis web, gains 37.5% optimal range Golem - gains 37.5% stasis web Kronos - loses 12.5% stasis web, gains 50% falloff Vargur - gains 37.5% stasis web
I'm really not seeing the downside here... Is there honestly any Marauder owners that wouldn't give up 12.5% stasis web for a +37.5% optimal or +50% falloff?
The downside is Pirate BS' are still better even with those Marauder buffs. Mach won't loose its "mission king" status because of those changes. Also Marauders loose drone bay which is very bad.
So no, this is a big downside.
Price wise Marauders are almost the same as Rat BS, but the performance of the last ones are way higher. Saying that Rat BS are better at PvE AND PvP, while Marauders are only good at PvE. The conclusion is Marauders should be better at PvE because they specialize in it and have the same price. Whatever. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:29:00 -
[4209] - Quote
The Djego wrote:The downside is a massive speed and drone bay nerf, reducing the dps and ignoring well know issues of the particular hulls(damage shortage of the Kronos, Vargur to similar to the Mach, Golem more usefull with CMs instead with Torps etc.).
As for the earlier question about the web, ofc it collides with the painter bonus, since every slot you use on a web you can't use for a painter. Ofc the web got the bigger benefit(after like 15s slowing stuff down) but the application is not instant like with painters and you will most of the time not get till web range(because the target is dead anyway or you get kitted in pvp, because you sit in brick, even for BS standards). The idea is to only add the explosion velocity bonus to torpedo's(because they are kind of bad since the last CM update) and make the Golem again more viable with trops.
I wouldn't say massive speed nerf, since the improved MJD offsets that to some extent. Yes, in the sense the stasis web takes up a mid slot - but I'd hardly call that a conflict; that's a choice. If I was running torpedoes, I'd probably run 2x webs and 2x rigors instead. As I previously indicated, yes - an explosion velocity would be more useful because a) it's passive, b) doesn't require a slot and c) applies to cruise missiles and torpedoes alike (but then cruise missiles will dominate).
A simple solution would be to give Bastion a +25% rate of fire for short-range weapons only: pulse lasers, blasters, torpedoes and autocannons. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Chloe Cartier
Angelitos Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:29:00 -
[4210] - Quote
Bastion mode gives a damage range increase (Optimal/falloff) but yet there is also a web bonus that can only be applied within 14km?... doesn't make sense to have those together no?
I d like to see some damage bonus added (rof, direct, applied damage...)when Bastion'd, and some MWD bonus over some MJD one as the speeds mentioned are bringing tears to my eyes. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:36:00 -
[4211] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:The downside is Pirate BS' are still better even with those Marauder buffs. Mach won't loose its "mission king" status because of those changes. Also Marauders loose drone bay which is very bad.
So no, this is a big downside.
Price wise Marauders are almost the same as Rat BS, but the performance of the last ones are way higher. Saying that Rat BS are better at PvE AND PvP, while Marauders are only good at PvE. The conclusion is Marauders should be better at PvE because they specialize in it and have the same price.
I'll gladly take one of the new Marauders over any of the Pirate battleships. For missile boats, there's nothing the Pirates offer that even remotely comes close to the Navy Raven - let alone a Golem. The Nightmare is nice, but the Paladin is a superior laser setup. As for the Machariel, it's lack of mids makes it a lousy shield or armor tank, so if it ever gets webbed it's dead, dead, dead. You're also comparing proposed Marauders with pre-balanced Pirate battleships; for all we know they're going to get hit with the nerf bat as well. Did I mention T2 resists? Marauders didn't lose the drone bay - it just got reduced. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
161
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:38:00 -
[4212] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:
Missions in minmatar space with a laser-boat = not clever. MJD = Easy snipe with tachyons, no need for web nor tracking, optimal bonus = handy in that case.
Can't see the point in gimping your cap with a MWD, when you can go to any Acceleration gate with two well done jumps of MJD.
Proper gank fitted laser ships are actually not to bad in minmatar space. My Paladin is nearly as fast as my Vargur, because most lower end NPCs have hardly any serious resistances(meaning the volley count is very similar) and conflagration deals very good damage against angels, because it got a lot of thermal damage.
Option A: MWDing in range, burn everything with max dps, loot BS on the fly. Option B: MJD out of range, use low damage ammo, being unable to loot BS on the fly.
Guess what people that did spend 50+ days on marauder 5 and use them on a daily basis do with them?
Also it is fairly unlikely that you hit the gate perfectly and you will in most cases spend more time to slow boat to it after landing 5-8km off the gate, than somebody that just mwd's 10-15 km to it(at least if they don't make them all bricks). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:44:00 -
[4213] - Quote
Chloe Cartier wrote:Bastion mode gives a damage range increase (Optimal/falloff) but yet there is also a web bonus that can only be applied within 14km?... doesn't make sense to have those together no?
I d like to see some damage bonus added (rof, direct, applied damage...)when Bastion'd, and some MWD bonus over some MJD one as the speeds mentioned are bringing tears to my eyes.
And missile velocity. Yes, while it does extend the range - one could also put forward the argument that it applies damage more effectively, ie: higher damage for guns using range-reducing ammo, faster missiles that reach their targets quicker. Yes, a ROF bonus for short-range weapons (only) would be an interesting perk for Bastion. I'm fine with the MJD - it's perfect for missions. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 17:21:00 -
[4214] - Quote
I'm sorry, but what the hell is this? 1) "+ stasis webifier" and "- tanking" when not in the Bastion mode? Why would you need webs on a Torp Golem? Target painters are the way to go... 2) align time 19s: Really? I thought this was a mission boat, you know, which supposed to go on a mission, kill all, go second mission, kill all etc. Not go on a mission kill all, then spend god knows how much time getting back to the station completing a mission and then going for a second one. 3) drone bay on a Torp Golem 25m? Are there any changes to drone mechanics where the NPC do not target drones at all that I don't know about? There are plenty of elite frigates in some missions (Enemies Abound is a shining example) where you will lose drones sometimes. And dealing with scramming frigates in a torp boat without drones is kinda suicide.
All in all: + range you get during Bastion is great tank you get is also great, but Marauders had already plenty of tank - webs with no range bonus on a ship that is supposed to jump around the battlefield is kinda crap align time is gonna make me less money then right now drone bay reduction can possibly mean a death in some situations
When will we get a missile ship that is better then Navy Raven (i mean a true missile ship, not the Rattlesnake drone one)? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 17:28:00 -
[4215] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:I'm sorry, but what the hell is this? 1) "+ stasis webifier" and "- tanking" when not in the Bastion mode? Why would you need webs on a Torp Golem? Target painters are the way to go...
Umm... to increase damage? Maybe to nail those pesky frigates? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 17:36:00 -
[4216] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:The downside is Pirate BS' are still better even with those Marauder buffs.
.....at level four missions. They're the only BS-sized ships that can solo 10/10 plexes, C3+ WH sites, and level five missions.
I think the drone bay decrease is actually pretty necessary, otherwise people would use bastion to run absurd gimmick fits for absolute max DPS, like 2-slot shield tanking their Paladin and running anoms with 4 heat sinks and 3 drone damage amps in the lows. |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:19:00 -
[4217] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:I'm sorry, but what the hell is this? 1) "+ stasis webifier" and "- tanking" when not in the Bastion mode? Why would you need webs on a Torp Golem? Target painters are the way to go... Umm... to increase damage? Maybe to nail those pesky frigates?
Painter => instant signature increase => every applied volley is increased at the moment the torps hit the target Web => gradual speed decrease => first applied volley has almost no effect and only second gets some damage increase
And when you are scrammed by multiple frigs you cannot wait for frig to be slowed down, you need to kill it here and now. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:32:00 -
[4218] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Painter => instant signature increase => every applied volley is increased at the moment the torps hit the target Web => gradual speed decrease => first applied volley has almost no effect and only second gets some damage increase And when you are scrammed by multiple frigs you cannot wait for frig to be slowed down, you need to kill it here and now.
You take your 2x TPs, I'll take a TP and stasis web. We'll see which frigate dies first... Even if you nail a ship under it's signature radius, it still has a huge potential to offset damage through velocity. It should also be pointed out that even webs don't guarantee hits with long-range guns, but this is not true for missiles (they will always hit and do at least some damage). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:34:00 -
[4219] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: As for the Machariel, it's lack of mids makes it a lousy shield or armor tank, so if it ever gets webbed it's dead, dead, dead.
... Yeah, it's considered one of the best mission ships because it dies when webbed... Not because its faster, has more dps, and a better drone bay than the vargur.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:46:00 -
[4220] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:... Yeah, it's considered one of the best mission ships because it dies when webbed... Not because its faster, has more dps, and a better drone bay than the vargur.
I never said it was a lousy mission ship, I just said it's extremely vulnerable if it ever slows down. I've used Machs, and they're a lot of fun. By the same token, if you remove a Rattlesnake's drones from the equation - it has almost no offensive power whatsoever. I guess what I'm saying is that I like the current iteration of Marauders (it's unique if anything).
With respect to speed, the Nightmare is 94m/s, Bhallgorn is 101m/s and Vindicator is 126m/s; so 85 m/s for the Paladin and Golem, 92 m/s for the Kronos and 100 m/s for the Vargur isn't really that out-of-line. Everyone else fails to mention the increased targeting range, sensor strength and reduced signature radius.
Now if the Golem only came in carbon fiber black... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:01:00 -
[4221] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Painter => instant signature increase => every applied volley is increased at the moment the torps hit the target Web => gradual speed decrease => first applied volley has almost no effect and only second gets some damage increase And when you are scrammed by multiple frigs you cannot wait for frig to be slowed down, you need to kill it here and now. You take your 2x TPs, I'll take a TP and stasis web. We'll see which frigate dies first... Even if you nail a ship under it's signature radius, it still has a huge potential to offset damage through velocity. It should also be pointed out that even webs don't guarantee hits with long-range guns, but this is not true for missiles (they will always hit and do at least some damage).
You take that web and TP I'll take the dual TPs and kill the frig LONG before it gets into web range. Hell, I'll even kill all his little frig buddies and possibly even cruiser buddies before you can even web him down. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:09:00 -
[4222] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:You take that web and TP I'll take the dual TPs and kill the frig LONG before it gets into web range. Hell, I'll even kill all his little frig buddies and possibly even cruiser buddies before you can even web him down.
While you're slowboating it, I'll just MJD in, Bastion and paste the suckers. :D The reason no one uses stasis webs on Golems is because it's never had any bonuses and you've really needed two to be halfway effective. With any new innovation alternate strategies are sure to develop. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:13:00 -
[4223] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:You take that web and TP I'll take the dual TPs and kill the frig LONG before it gets into web range. Hell, I'll even kill all his little frig buddies and possibly even cruiser buddies before you can even web him down. While you're slowboating it, I'll just MJD in, Bastion and paste the suckers. :D The reason no one uses stasis webs on Golems is because it's never had any bonuses and you've really needed two to be halfway effective. With any new innovation alternate strategies are sure to develop.
But I would have already bastioned, locked and have vollies in the air, on possibly two frigs. The way I do it, I break my launchers into two groups, one TP for frig. I typically 1 volley frigs 2 at a time. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:15:00 -
[4224] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:But I would have already bastioned, locked and have vollies in the air, on possibly two frigs. The way I do it, I break my launchers into two groups, one TP for frig. I typically 1 volley frigs 2 at a time.
You're talking cruise missiles - not torpedoes, right? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
470
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:18:00 -
[4225] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:But I would have already bastioned, locked and have vollies in the air, on possibly two frigs. The way I do it, I break my launchers into two groups, one TP for frig. I typically 1 volley frigs 2 at a time. You're talking cruise missiles - not torpedoes, right?
Correct.
With the missile changes last year, torps are kinda outdated in pve. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
203
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:26:00 -
[4226] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Correct. With the missile changes last year, torps are kinda outdated in pve.
See, I was referring to torpedoes. Cruise missiles already have a higher explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius so there's minimal benefit with a stasis web. I think cruise missiles are going to get hit hard with the nerf bat, though. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
472
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:40:00 -
[4227] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Correct. With the missile changes last year, torps are kinda outdated in pve. See, I was referring to torpedoes. Cruise missiles already have a higher explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius so there's minimal benefit with a stasis web. I think cruise missiles are going to get hit hard with the nerf bat, though.
Naa, probably not.. They just barely got the buff bat. Now, the only thing I can see them doing is swapping precision and fury ranges, so that they're more like torps, but I dunno about that.
Point being though, if you're using torps on a golem right now, you're missing out. Torps actually make more sense with bastion, as you'll be able to get like 82km with javelin and t2 range rigs, but you can put out pretty decent dps with a cruise golem now adays.
I have a torp and cruise fit saved on eft. The torp fit isn't even 100 dps more. This is because I can fit a damge rig on a cruise golem and still have damn good range. Maybe bastion will fix this so that torps don't require range rigs to hit max orbit targets.. Would be nice to see a torp golem useful again without prop mods |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:45:00 -
[4228] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Correct. With the missile changes last year, torps are kinda outdated in pve. See, I was referring to torpedoes. Cruise missiles already have a higher explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius so there's minimal benefit with a stasis web. I think cruise missiles are going to get hit hard with the nerf bat, though. Naa, probably not.. They just barely got the buff bat. Now, the only thing I can see them doing is swapping precision and fury ranges, so that they're more like torps, but I dunno about that. Point being though, if you're using torps on a golem right now, you're missing out. Torps actually make more sense with bastion, as you'll be able to get like 82km with javelin and t2 range rigs, but you can put out pretty decent dps with a cruise golem now adays. I have a torp and cruise fit saved on eft. The torp fit isn't even 100 dps more. This is because I can fit a damge rig on a cruise golem and still have damn good range. Maybe bastion will fix this so that torps don't require range rigs to hit max orbit targets.. Would be nice to see a torp golem useful again without prop mods
Torpedo's were supposed to have received some love during the cruise missile buff, but we didn't see it. They need a slight damage buff to compensate for the extremely short range. You can't buff them, however, without adjusting stealth bombers, as they do not need a buff.... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:50:00 -
[4229] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Torpedo's were supposed to have received some love during the cruise missile buff, but we didn't see it. They need a slight damage buff to compensate for the extremely short range. You can't buff them, however, without adjusting stealth bombers, as they do not need a buff....
I think most would be happy with a 10-15% damage buff at this point. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:55:00 -
[4230] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Torpedo's were supposed to have received some love during the cruise missile buff, but we didn't see it. They need a slight damage buff to compensate for the extremely short range. You can't buff them, however, without adjusting stealth bombers, as they do not need a buff.... I think most would be happy with a 10-15% damage buff at this point.
i agree, but you will have to nerf stealth bombers at the same time. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
472
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:59:00 -
[4231] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Correct. With the missile changes last year, torps are kinda outdated in pve. See, I was referring to torpedoes. Cruise missiles already have a higher explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius so there's minimal benefit with a stasis web. I think cruise missiles are going to get hit hard with the nerf bat, though. Naa, probably not.. They just barely got the buff bat. Now, the only thing I can see them doing is swapping precision and fury ranges, so that they're more like torps, but I dunno about that. Point being though, if you're using torps on a golem right now, you're missing out. Torps actually make more sense with bastion, as you'll be able to get like 82km with javelin and t2 range rigs, but you can put out pretty decent dps with a cruise golem now adays. I have a torp and cruise fit saved on eft. The torp fit isn't even 100 dps more. This is because I can fit a damge rig on a cruise golem and still have damn good range. Maybe bastion will fix this so that torps don't require range rigs to hit max orbit targets.. Would be nice to see a torp golem useful again without prop mods Torpedo's were supposed to have received some love during the cruise missile buff, but we didn't see it. They need a slight damage buff to compensate for the extremely short range. You can't buff them, however, without adjusting stealth bombers, as they do not need a buff....
Well, torps did get a little bit of love. They are now effected by guided missile precision (I believe without actually looking) So that at lvl 5 they actually have a smaller exp radius than they used to by a decent amount. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
472
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 20:01:00 -
[4232] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Torpedo's were supposed to have received some love during the cruise missile buff, but we didn't see it. They need a slight damage buff to compensate for the extremely short range. You can't buff them, however, without adjusting stealth bombers, as they do not need a buff.... I think most would be happy with a 10-15% damage buff at this point. i agree, but you will have to nerf stealth bombers at the same time.
I don't know about 10-15%... That seems a bit strong, but then again I'm not looking at the actual numbers.
Perhaps that would be ok, but what I would rather see is a 5-10% buff, and a exp rad/vel buff.. I mean, they have a powerful explosion, you'd think they'd have a high velocity tied to that... |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
161
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 20:08:00 -
[4233] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Torpedo's were supposed to have received some love during the cruise missile buff, but we didn't see it. They need a slight damage buff to compensate for the extremely short range. You can't buff them, however, without adjusting stealth bombers, as they do not need a buff.... I think most would be happy with a 10-15% damage buff at this point.
It is not dps, it is damage application(especially against mobile sub BS targets at medium range in pvp), speed of the hulls(the raven and cnr changes gone a long way to fix it) and fitting(what is to restrictive for close range weapon system on the hulls to fit tank + gank properly). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 20:29:00 -
[4234] - Quote
Well if they're adding a new auto-salvage deployable structure, thats going to make the salvage bonus on the marauder pretty useless. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
472
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 20:30:00 -
[4235] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Well if they're adding a new auto-salvage deployable structure, thats going to make the salvage bonus on the marauder pretty useless.
No crap... if only they gave the Marauders a bonus to this module
Edit... BTW
THAT IS FREAKING AWESOME!!! |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:03:00 -
[4236] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Well if they're adding a new auto-salvage deployable structure, thats going to make the salvage bonus on the marauder pretty useless.
The deployable module is for tractor beaming not salvaging ...kinda a big difference.
in which case the Marauder bonus is now officially useless.  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
472
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:07:00 -
[4237] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Well if they're adding a new auto-salvage deployable structure, thats going to make the salvage bonus on the marauder pretty useless. The deployable module is for tractor beaming not salvaging ...kinda a big difference. in which case the Marauder bonus is now officially useless. 
Well, the tractor bonus is useless, but they could give the marauders the capability to hold some of these(if you need more than one to be effective) and then give marauders a salvage bonus instead
This would actually make them a lot better |

Moretic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:13:00 -
[4238] - Quote
While I am neutral to these new changes and the idea of SoE ships I very much dislike the "hate" on drones.
Why not make a ship focused on drones ONLY ( caps and subcaps are drones and logi and also, not talking about figthers )
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:31:00 -
[4239] - Quote
Rapid Heavy Missile Golem for the win.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:42:00 -
[4240] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Rapid Heavy Missile Golem for the win.  Agreed. That was about the only part of that show that really made me smile. Might actually be able to split your launchers and TPs and engage multiple targets simultaneously :) Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:48:00 -
[4241] - Quote
Also. I couldn't tell during the stream, but were they talking about a new tractor beam MODULE or deployable STRUCTURE? If it's a module, that works nicely with the Marauder bonus. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
205
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:49:00 -
[4242] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Rapid Heavy Missile Golem for the win.  Agreed. That was about the only part of that show that really made me smile. Might actually be able to split your launchers and TPs and engage multiple targets simultaneously :)
That's what I was thinking too. They'll probably be slightly less for power requirements as well, and with a higher explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius they'll be deadly against cruisers and frigates. It's entirely possible that you won't even need target painters, which opens up a lot of possibilities with the mid slots. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
205
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:51:00 -
[4243] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Also. I couldn't tell during the stream, but were they talking about a new tractor beam MODULE or deployable STRUCTURE? If it's a module, that works nicely with the Marauder bonus.
I think it's a structure that you deploy. The question is: how much cargo space it will occupy and whether NPCs will fire on it? Hopefully you'll be able to loot these without penalty as well... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
30
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:03:00 -
[4244] - Quote
Really confused after the stream... whats the point of tractor beam bonus on marauders if there will be a special deployable structure for that...
Hope that what CCP stuff actually said is that their listening to feedback and the current iteration is not a final one.
Ps. Great job on sisters of eve ships. They rock both by design and concept behind them . |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
206
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:11:00 -
[4245] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Really confused after the stream... whats the point of tractor beam bonus on marauders if there will be a special deployable structure for that... Hope that what CCP stuff actually said is that their listening to feedback and the current iteration is not a final one. Ps. Great job on sisters of eve ships. They rock both by design and concept behind them  .
None unless the structure is too large to fit. Perhaps a salvager bonus instead? Yeah, SoE ships rock. Here's hoping for a battleship as well... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:15:00 -
[4246] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Proper gank fitted laser ships are actually not to bad in minmatar space. My Paladin is nearly as fast as my Vargur, because most lower end NPCs have hardly any serious resistances(meaning the volley count is very similar) and conflagration deals very good damage against angels, because it got a lot of thermal damage.
Option A: MWDing in range, burn everything with max dps, loot BS on the fly. Option B: MJD out of range, use low damage ammo, being unable to loot BS on the fly.
Guess what people that did spend 50+ days on marauder 5 and use them on a daily basis do with them?
Either your Vargur is s**t-fitted or your Paladin ultra pimped. Killing Angel Cartel with a Paladin is a PITA. In any case, I wouldn't trade the Tachyons' optimal range for 50 more DPS and a better tracking by using Pulses. I think in the long run, being able to shoot farther compensates this little DPS difference. I couldn't care less about the loot. It's so pitiful.
The Djego wrote:Also it is fairly unlikely that you hit the gate perfectly and you will in most cases spend more time to slow boat to it after landing 5-8km off the gate, than somebody that just mwd's 10-15 km to it(at least if they don't make them all bricks)
Seriously, dude? A friend of mine and I use that all the time, and since the "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates is so big, it doesn't really matter if you messed up a few degrees, you'll still be at 0 km. You should train a bit. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:52:00 -
[4247] - Quote
Ok, after coming from work, I've just watched ccp announcement for winter expansion. I'm done with this subject. My attitude is changed to positive. CCP, whoever came with the idea to create a deployable platform that gets all the wrecks together, send my salutes to them. Now, I can play with my Marauder.
Period & Shivanthar out. |

Royal NASA
Royal Federation Navy
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:58:00 -
[4248] - Quote
Hi my loving Capsules. It is i NASA Again!
I look forward to the changers of any ship(s).
I just thought saying what i think was ok in relation to changers to the Marauder ship(s).
And again i say please take into account time ratio plus cost ratio should also in pact a change to the above. that being the Marauder class ship(s).
I would like a blood red color or colour with shiny Gold strips on my Marauder ship. Also 8 high 8 medium and 8 low slots.
if my thought offends you then I'm sorry for thinking. so literate watching haters back off please.
with Kind Regards me NASA actual . out. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
475
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 23:00:00 -
[4249] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Ok, after coming from work, I've just watched ccp announcement for winter expansion. I'm done with this subject. My attitude is changed to positive. CCP, whoever came with the idea to create a deployable platform that gets all the wrecks together, send my salutes to them. Now, I can play with my Marauder.
Period & Shivanthar out.
well, assuming the marauder can hold at least one... |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 23:12:00 -
[4250] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: well, assuming the marauder can hold at least one...
They said in the video that this platform will make PVE players happy.
Considering Marauders are a specialized class of BS, and have the biggest(?) cargo hold within ships that can generate wrecks, I think they wouldn't tell in that way during the video if it won't be able to hold one ^.^ |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
206
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 23:17:00 -
[4251] - Quote
The Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher is probably the most welcome change to the Marauders. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Project XXVIII
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 00:58:00 -
[4252] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:The Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher is probably the most welcome change to the Marauders.
Provided the (Golem) Hull gets a bonus to said launchers,.. sure,.. otherwise,.. I dunno,..
Also this deployable "Scrounger" for lack of better terms,.. will be a wild card until I see how it works,.. what's the range, if it draws aggro.
As others have stated, if this module does essentially replace the need for tractor beams, will the tractor bonus on the Marauder hull be replaced with something else?
The picture of the "transformed" Kronos was interesting,.. I was just hoping for,.. I dunno,.. a little more,.. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
475
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 01:03:00 -
[4253] - Quote
Project XXVIII wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:The Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher is probably the most welcome change to the Marauders. Provided the (Golem) Hull gets a bonus to said launchers,.. sure,.. otherwise,.. I dunno,.. Also this deployable "Scrounger" for lack of better terms,.. will be a wild card until I see how it works,.. what's the range, if it draws aggro. As others have stated, if this module does essentially replace the need for tractor beams, will the tractor bonus on the Marauder hull be replaced with something else? The picture of the "transformed" Kronos was interesting,.. I was just hoping for,.. I dunno,.. a little more,..
Yeah, that Kronos looked kinda cool, but it didn't really TRANSFORM... It's more like a pop out camper... Doesn't really transform, it just kinda looks a little different... |

Project XXVIII
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 02:15:00 -
[4254] - Quote
The Djego wrote:It is not dps, it is damage application(especially against mobile sub BS targets at medium range in pvp), speed of the hulls(the raven and cnr changes gone a long way to fix it) and fitting(what is to restrictive for close range weapon system on the hulls to fit tank + gank properly).
When initially they posted a +25% to missile velocity,.. I thought to myself,.. for torps that's great,.. I get roughly 40km effective with T1 Torps,.. this 25% will be awesome,..
But in actuality, it just tacked on about 5km,.. or thereabout. Which would make it roughly in game what EFT/Pyfa/Neocom tells me my range should be on paper (roughly 45km). Make Torps out to 60km and I'd be raging with a nerd hard on.
Of course there ARE rumours that missiles will be getting tracking computers,.. which both intrigues and scares me. Missiles/Torps that miss fills me with dread,.. an extended range to Torps,.. now that I can get behind. Finding some midslots to add said module,.. hmmm,..  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
475
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 02:21:00 -
[4255] - Quote
Project XXVIII wrote:The Djego wrote:It is not dps, it is damage application(especially against mobile sub BS targets at medium range in pvp), speed of the hulls(the raven and cnr changes gone a long way to fix it) and fitting(what is to restrictive for close range weapon system on the hulls to fit tank + gank properly). When initially they posted a +25% to missile velocity,.. I thought to myself,.. for torps that's great,.. I get roughly 40km effective with T1 Torps,.. this 25% will be awesome,.. But in actuality, it just tacked on about 5km,.. or thereabout. Which would make it roughly in game what EFT/Pyfa/Neocom tells me my range should be on paper (roughly 45km). Make Torps out to 60km and I'd be raging with a nerd hard on. Of course there ARE rumours that missiles will be getting tracking computers,.. which both intrigues and scares me. Missiles/Torps that miss fills me with dread,.. an extended range to Torps,.. now that I can get behind. Finding some midslots to add said module,.. hmmm,..  On a golem with t2 range rigs you can get around 65km with javelin torps. That's enough to do missions stationary... |

Project XXVIII
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 03:01:00 -
[4256] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: On a golem with t2 range rigs you can get around 65km with javelin torps. That's enough to do missions stationary...
With Javs yes, but I am one to just use T1s. I am finding though that I seem to be a minority in playing this way. Is 65km the "actual in game range" or what fitting programs claim you should get?
And really, with the DPS drop for using Javs, wouldn't fitting Cruises with Fury get you better range, DPS and a very similar blast radius? |

stoicfaux
3157
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 03:09:00 -
[4257] - Quote
Project XXVIII wrote: And really, with the DPS drop for using Javs, wouldn't fitting Cruises with Fury get you better range, DPS and a very similar blast radius?
Yup, and T1s as well. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3640995#post3640995
Torp Golem with 2xHBT2s (missile speed): javelin: 785 DPS to ~64km er 337m, ev, 133m/s
t1: 872 dps out to ~42km er 337m, ev, 133m/s
Fury: 906 dps out to ~166km er 272m, ev 109m/s
edit: added T1 |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
475
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 03:21:00 -
[4258] - Quote
Project XXVIII wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: On a golem with t2 range rigs you can get around 65km with javelin torps. That's enough to do missions stationary...
With Javs yes, but I am one to just use T1s. I am finding though that I seem to be a minority in playing this way. Is 65km the "actual in game range" or what fitting programs claim you should get? And really, with the DPS drop for using Javs, wouldn't fitting Cruises with Fury get you better range, DPS and a very similar blast radius?
In range you'll get an easy 55km.. Maybe more, but against mission bss you should get at least 55. Now, you are correct that cruise missiles can so more dps with better application at much greater range. This is why I wrote a comment earlier(probably on the last page) stating that if you're not using a cruise golem, you're missing out. Both fits I built were intended for stationary mission killing. The cruise golem had 3 times the range with dps that was less than 100 dps that of a rage torp golem.
I've always felt that all missile systems needed to fall in line with that of hams and torps, that meaning the long range ammo does less damage but better application. However, if this is not the way CCP wants it, then I am happy doing 1015 dps with my golem fit at max targeting range and then some.
I'll would be ok if CCP swapped long range missiles in this manner, but if they just straight nerf cruise missiles, I'll probably burn Jita. That said, while the bastion module does make torps more viable in pve, it is more designed with cruise in mind... Personally, the range buff with the golem Is useless outside of POS bashing, as with my skills I can already hit 166km on paper, and I can't even target that far. |

Blurtmaster
Aperture Harmonics K162
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 03:29:00 -
[4259] - Quote
Moving around with the vargur and being flexible was the best thing about it IMO. When we took out 6 capitals being able to move around with precision, was the vargur key. Not sure MJD would be of _any_ use as you need the 5-10km precision in distancing yourself to the target.
And making them so similar in bonuses - and web range so short .... super boring. Cant they have a unique bonus per race?
Diversify them Web bonus range on one Speed bonus on one cap bonus on one Make one a glass cannon or Be Creative!
And Yes: #19Posted: 2013.08.29 20:00 | Report Like 44 Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration?
Streamlining everything will make EVE a very boring game Mkay. |

Some Name
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 03:35:00 -
[4260] - Quote
reballancing? i just see the crippling of an old and good ship.
plz dont change them, or at least not that frankensteinway. make _-_black marauders_-_ for your monstrosseuss changes.
|
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1253
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 05:02:00 -
[4261] - Quote
Well, Nov 19th is 7 weeks away.
Given that CCP has to lock down code at least a week before the 19th, we are now facing 6 weeks before code lockdown. And of course, we have heard nothing from the devs in weeks on the next set of changes.
How many actually believe Raivi' comments on Twitch TV about how the devs are reading these comments but not responding, because they are busy.
What we will end up with is the current set of crap ideas for the Marauder dumped onto Sisi in about 2 weeks, and then CCP will ignore the feedback, a la the drone disaster, and the garbage we see now as the proposed changes will be what we get stuck with on Nov 19th.
Why can't the nulldevs actually get the balls to say, "look, we hate high sec, we want to see it gone, and this is how we are doing it, so accept it or quit". Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 05:10:00 -
[4262] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Where's my locator agent?.... But seriously, who Overloads for PvE?? Better yet, who overloads when their ship and fit worth over 10 billion (probably) relies on those modules working... I wouldn't risk flying that expensive of a ship, and I sure as hell wouldn't risk overloading anything on it. I would stay aligned, with an MJD and be ready to GTFO in a moments notice... Even if I was running a lvl 1 mission, lol Eve-Central says it's worth approximately $12.6 billion. That's one hell of a shiny loot pinata. I suggest you don't undock anytime soon. And, assuming your character 'NiteNinja' is flying that ship, unless you designed that character from day one to fly the Golem, I would guess the character needs more skills trained before flying that shiny of a ship. But ConranAntoni IT"S SO SHINY. 
Yeah I'm pretty much strictly in Core, Missiles, Shields, and Marauders V.
And you can overload faction modules for way longer with Thermodynamics V than T1/T2 modules, so they're practical when you just want to bulldoze every mission. Flown that ship for over a year without ganks or poblems (Fly smart) and considering I won't be on EVE for another 3 months or so because of a client issue, I figured I might as well make my fit semi-public since it'll change in November anyway and I'll be forced to fly another ship to keep up my efficiency between wardecs.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 06:13:00 -
[4263] - Quote
If I understand the new loot grabber, I guess you would drop one of these in the middle of a wreck cloud and have it tractor things in and loot them leaving a pile of empty wrecks to salvage. I see at least one problem with the general idea: aren't wrecks collidable objects? Won't this cause some issues as the wrecks start to pile up? How are you supposed to get to the structure to empty/reclaim it if the thing is surrounded by wrecks?
So you would fit 3-4 non-bonused salvager II modules and maybe add a flight of salvage drones into the mix? What kind of range are we talking about on the beams? Can you repackage the structure and move it to the next room of the mission? Not only will you have to return to the structure to retrieve your loot, you'd have to stay right next to it to salvage effectively. I'm not sure how big an upside you're going to get. If they just made regular tractor beams auto loot wrecks and containers once they are within loot range, it would be far better.
I have a counter proposal.
Salvage Drone Hive I
- Inherits deploying pilot's drone control range modified by skills but NOT ship fittings
- Inherits deploying pilot's salvage drone operation skill bonus
- Hive Neural Core increases base salvage drone difficulty by 2/lvl of whatever skill is required by the module
- 25mb drone bandwidth
- 125m3 drone bay
- 200m3 salvage storage bay
- Replaces destroyed drones automatically unless operation is suspended
There are two benefits I see to this approach over the loot grabber. First, some players care more for the loot, others care more about the salvage. This depends heavily on what is being looted and salvaged. The hive would offer a convenient way for pilots to salvage while actually running the mission without dealing with the loot if they don't want to. However if a player only wants the loot, they can fit their tractor beams and continue on as they do today. No real change to mission running habits.
Second, it provides a nice bonus to salvage time which is usually far more time consuming than moving the wreck into salvage range. Especially when using salvage drones with their max 13% access difficulty bonus. The hive would allow drones to reach 23% which is still 2% less than T1 salvager modules at max skills and no rigs. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit Shadows Of Betrayal
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:04:00 -
[4264] - Quote
The new auto tractoring structure is going to make the tractor beam bonus on marauders obsolete, would be more efficient if the marauders got enough room to drop one or more of the structures instead of the salvaging bonuses they have now. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
370
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:14:00 -
[4265] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Mole Guy wrote: as far as ive seen, they added the mjd bonus. you dont have to use it. but...if you did, you could jump every minute for better position. a paly with mega pulse in bastion can have up too 120km range with scorch and nasty tracking. by the time someone gets there, yer ready to jump away and do it again.
now, if u want close in, dont use bastion. throw some tackle on it, enjoy the 400k EHP and shoot all kinds of crap to death. the mjd, especially for missions running, will be a freakin handy thing. you can bounce out of range of the rats. then reign death and destruction down on them. for fighting sanctum rats, warp in at 50k then jump strait up. everything will be dead before you start taking damage.
pointed by sleepers or incursion rats and being killed? mjd and warp. they dont scram, they point. mjd works through that. align towards the warp point, mjd and warp. once u land, hit warp and yer gone.
the marauder play style you are asking about is about dictating range. i will mjd out and start firing back at you. you have the choice to try to make it to me through mega pulse 100km, or warping. if u do make it, i will mjd back or somewhere else. the ability to jump 100k every minute is a scary thing.
I agree with you @scary part. You can find a lot of creative uses with that. As I posted at least thrice, you can do that with a sentry drone ship. I also have a Typhoon Fleet Issue that has nearly NO tank and also has a mjd on it. It doesn't tank, because there is no incoming damage. :) But that is a playstyle of a sentry drone ship/sniper. I wouldn't bother with getting loot with that ship. However, while they are adding bonus to web/mjd, they're removing shield boost buff. So, without sacrificing my applied damage, I don't know how will I reach 400k ehp you mentioned? O.o My boost bonus will be crap, so I will need a SBA in order to compansate, which will cause me leaving my TP, again reducing my applied damage. So, if balancing marauders means making them a good long range sniper, so be it. I will adapt to that. I just tried to tell there are already available ships for that role, exluding mjd bonus. Other than that, I don't see any "improvement" on my mission running with current proposal. All I see is a nerf (at least for Vargur). i went and read the link you gave. lemme ask a question.
if there are some that really do this, i dont know about them, but can you name 1 NPC in eve that has scram capability? i get pointed all the time, but i dont know if i have ever been "scrammed" or not. if the answer is no, then how in the world will you be trapped by a frigate with mjd on your ship?
if they get in too close, you finish the outer ones off, then lock the close frigs and mjd out, deploy and smoke em. 1 minute later, you mjd to the new deployable tractor beam and collect the loot, then salvage the field.
folks are missing the fact that mjd are immune to points. eve infi-points form my hics. i will retract my statement if you can show me a rat that scrams...i simply dont know of any. |

GeeShizzle MacCloud
360
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:27:00 -
[4266] - Quote
i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:
'yahh just give it total immunity...'
is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.
So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity. |

marVLs
418
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:28:00 -
[4267] - Quote
No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless...
Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true 
Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. |

Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit Shadows Of Betrayal
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:47:00 -
[4268] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.
Now that would be a effective and viable option, subcaps should never be immune to ewar, harder to jam yes, but never immune. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
370
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:51:00 -
[4269] - Quote
marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.
now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.
the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's. dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it. 1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time. use when its best too...not every time. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 09:59:00 -
[4270] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:
'yahh just give it total immunity...'
is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.
So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.
You clearly show that you do nto understan EVE. Ewar immunity measn you cannot DAMPEN, JAM, PAINT, or Tracking Disrupt the ship. ITs not simply ECM. |
|

GeeShizzle MacCloud
360
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 10:17:00 -
[4271] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:
'yahh just give it total immunity...'
is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.
So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity. You clearly show that you do nto understan EVE. Ewar immunity measn you cannot DAMPEN, JAM, PAINT, or Tracking Disrupt the ship. ITs not simply ECM.
well it just goes to show the state of ewar in its current form where by a designer has to blanket ban an entire subsection of 'interesting and combat intensive mechanics' to simply make something slightly viable. |

Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 11:24:00 -
[4272] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time. now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over. the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's. dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it. 1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time. use when its best too...not every time.
The paladin today doesnt have to snipe, it can sit 10km from rats and use conflag + 14km web. It's 1400 dps applied to a rat that isnt moving AT ALL. Supremely efficient. Sitting at 100km requires scorch and that lowers your damage significantly. You also cannot use smart bombs at 100km, another thing that is very useful at 10km. I suspect this is a thinly veiled nerf to solo income.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 12:14:00 -
[4273] - Quote
Hoping for a better justification for using marauders over faction and to better justify the additional train time... CCP announces a personal structure that will tractor and loot wrecks....
Tank nerf, speed nerf, mjd.
RIP vargur |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
161
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 12:34:00 -
[4274] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote: when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time.
now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over.
You don't burn around in a laser BS with a AB to reduce transversal, that is a massive time waster(exactly the same nonsense was done artillery fittings till 2009) because it is super slow and ineffective. What you do is to fit enough tracking, range and dps to get the spawn targets done at range before you run into tracking issues.
Ofc you will have less dps than a ship that utilizes sentry's and xray/multi/conflag, at120km range the new puls paladin with scorch will only deal 75% of the dps of my navy apoc and 58% of my current Paladin. MJD for pve is only helpful for tanking some plexes, it gimps your dps.
Here is a small example how to utilize sentry's, puls and non brick speed in L4(1100m/s with mwd): http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1306/New_NAPOC_Smuggler_Interception.mkv
The overall changes are still pretty bad, given they mostly gather around gimmick pvp applications, while not fixing the problems the current marauders have(what make them unpopular for pve and pvp compared to some pirate BS) and reducing her actual pve performance outside a hand full of niches. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Serenia Cadere
Bewahrer der Welten Mature Decadence
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 12:34:00 -
[4275] - Quote
I'll take the T2 resists and the scan res bonus. The rest you can keep. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
476
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 13:03:00 -
[4276] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i just wanna go on record saying that in my honest opinion, any mechanic design decision that end in:
'yahh just give it total immunity...'
is a f**king **** poor 3am, 'i dont wanna work i just wanna go home and get some sleep' decision that shouldnt be implemented in a serious sandbox style game like Eve Online.
So in that regard dont give bastion mode 'total' ewar immunity, just bump sensor strength of the ship to something trending towards 'effective' ewar immunity.
actually, ewar immunity is something that I brought up a long time ago.
Granted, when i mentioned it, it was for the base hull, and it was only npc ewar immunity. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
476
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 13:07:00 -
[4277] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time. now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over. the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's. dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it. 1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time. use when its best too...not every time.
/agreed However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong. The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding. You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily. And that's without bastion. |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 13:20:00 -
[4278] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mole Guy wrote:marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time. now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over. the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's. dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it. 1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time. use when its best too...not every time. /agreed However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong. The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding. You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily. And that's without bastion.
And what about defender missiles? 1 missile = -25% of damage...
Torp Golem has significant advantages in some missions (Damsel, Enemies Abound), but what is the advantage of Cruise Golem over CNR? Salvaging? with this new changes you get a lot more negative things for a cruise Golem: less speed, slower align, less drones, less cap. I'm sorry but if there is no Damage bonus or damage application bonus (explosion radius and velocity), then Bastion gives nothing and no bastion mode looses tank... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
476
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 13:30:00 -
[4279] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mole Guy wrote:marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time. now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over. the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's. dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it. 1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time. use when its best too...not every time. /agreed However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong. The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding. You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily. And that's without bastion. And what about defender missiles? 1 missile = -25% of damage... Torp Golem has significant advantages in some missions (Damsel, Enemies Abound), but what is the advantage of Cruise Golem over CNR? Salvaging? with this new changes you get a lot more negative things for a cruise Golem: less speed, slower align, less drones, less cap. I'm sorry but if there is no Damage bonus or damage application bonus (explosion radius and velocity), then Bastion gives nothing and no bastion mode looses tank...
I've flown missions and missile boats for years.. While defender missiles are annoying, they have never really effected my missioning. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 15:50:00 -
[4280] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:imo ccp has lost their way with marauders.
I give up.
I really do have to agree with you on this point.... i was going to go back and attack the lump of iron again, but they seem insistant on this doomed idea they already have - hell the trolls in this thread have been providing them better rebalances , not to mention a few that have been really well compiled and gave the marauders something interesting to do (few of the dual mode bastions made the isk risk worth the versatility)
as it is for pvp i'll just use a maelstrom or tempest i'm not about to field a 1 Bn isk bait trap now they've gone and taken almost every useful flight tactic i could have used with it - i'm stuck relegated to 1400mm sniping just to keep the risk low enough to be worth the cost and for that I may aswell buy and fit 8 maels or tempests for the same cost, or better yet use lokis and muninns.
not amused ccp i'm really not, but i'll no longer waste anyone's time talking to people who've quite obviously made up their minds and deafened themselves as your team seems to have done. posting into these forums proposed changes is only ever any good if you actually listen to the replies, not just hear the noise of 'no change it' only to go talk to the opinions your own closed group....and not change anything - you've recycled the same four points ten times and achieved the same result with each, you'd think you'd try something else? please?
just seems to me each proposal you make is just a reshuffling of the one before, try actually adding and removing meaningful functionality points rather than just placing the same things in a different order and hoping we won't notice, all you're doing is giving us different forms of useless for these hulls -.- |
|

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 15:58:00 -
[4281] - Quote
I wasn't too happy with the first iteration either but the second one was even worse... Please don't force us to use the Bastion mode where if we aren't using it and locking us in place we are worse than T1 battleships in many aspects...
Also i'm not too happy with the MJD idea either, how is it going to help when i need to get the container or gate at 50km?
Some of my opinions might change when i get to try it on SiSi but my first impressions are that i'm better off in pirate or navy battleships compared to ship class that was known as THE pve ship.
Afterall we are talking about ship class that takes months and months to skill for and the almost 1b price tag isn't pocket change to many of us either. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 16:03:00 -
[4282] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:I wasn't too happy with the first iteration either but the second one was even worse... Please don't force us to use the Bastion mode where if we aren't using it and locking us in place we are worse than T1 battleships in many aspects...
Also i'm not too happy with the MJD idea either, how is it going to help when i need to get the container or gate at 50km?
Some of my opinions might change when i get to try it on SiSi but my first impressions are that i'm better off in pirate or navy battleships compared to ship class that was known as THE pve ship.
Afterall we are talking about ship class that takes months and months to skill for and the almost 1b price tag isn't pocket change to many of us either.
this is exactly what the result is going to be, the ship gets worse for PVE and worthless for PVP cuz it just won't survive, and RR out of bastion doesn't matter cuz with 800Bn brawlers or snipers you'll just take logis anyway they're better.
and not even going to start again on why no one will ever actually use bastion in PVP - they insist on giving us nothing, can only hope when they see the few marauders that are being used disappear this self absorbed team will start to listen... -=/ |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 17:50:00 -
[4283] - Quote
marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank.
Agreed for the most part, the only situation where I could see settling for lower dps in pve is when gaining so much utility that isk/time increased even w/ reduced dps. Kinda tough to come up with something like that given these new structures.
Maybe something like: Marauders have extremely precise offensive capabilities that are designed to destroy ships with with reduced dmg to the hull's components and cargo Additional Role Bonus: drop rates are increased by x%
|

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 17:51:00 -
[4284] - Quote
Just a thought. Many people are complaining about a useless tractor beam bonus, well to be honest I sort of agree especially with the revealing of those deployable modules yesterday.
I propose to switch out the tractor beam bonus with a bonus towards smartbombs either in effective damage or a small boost to range to hit anything in normal scram range. I only propose this to make up for the sudden cut in drone bay and bandwidth made dealing with upclose smaller targets more of a pain.
I'm well aware of the justification of sniping with the new range bonus however in PVE or PVP I dislike the 1 trick pony microjump drive since I'm damn sure there are some tackles who could close that gap before you got out of Bastion mode.
Summ it up: -Drop Tractor Beam Bonus -Replace tractor bonus with Smartbomb bonus (blast radius or damage amp) -Increase Drone bay/Bandwidth to allow for full use of a set of Hammerhead II
I feel these would not overpower the Marauder and save it from some of the gimp parts of the proposed update. |

Sh0plifter
Black Market Operations
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:05:00 -
[4285] - Quote
Edit: ^ That above is a great idea for a replacement bonus for the tractor beam.
I like the idea of a mini-dead for the marauder. My annoyance with this though is it is not a dread. It isn't even similiar to a rorq or triage carrier. Adjust it into a ******* self-sustaining ship.
Get rid of "100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" we have the noctis for this and the noctis will out do a marauder for much less training. Every person who does PVE on the regular has a noctis with at least skills to 4 across the board. Alot of dedicated alt characters for the noctis which is more than likely maxed. Which makes the marauder useless in this aspect. Just get rid of that bonus all together.
Put the "100% bonus to large energy weapon damage" bonus into the bastion module, like the dreadnaught, its damage boost comes from being in Siege. Then up the bonus to something respectable to make it worth "Bastioning" such as 225% with a T1 Bastion Mod and 250% with a T2. Furthermore, put the ******* tracking/velocity bonus into it. Again, making it worth it to put that ship into Bastion Mode to begin with.
"Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%" & "Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%" - Explosion Radius.
"Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%" - Reducing the capacitor needed to activate the cycle runs on the SB/AR as well as the cycle time by 20-25% would increase all forms of survivablity while in Bastion mode. I mean we are sitting there for 1 minute with no momentum so we are taking full damage hits off the NPCs/Players. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
483
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:12:00 -
[4286] - Quote
Assuming this tractor module is good, and not just a single, 20km range tractor, then I would not mind seeing marauders built with this in mind and getting a salvage bonus instead. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:33:00 -
[4287] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mole Guy wrote:marVLs wrote:No matter what You do with them until they wont have at least so much DPS as Pirate BS's they will be still useless... Not only my opinion, today i was on coms with about 50peps, and they talk about it, and guess what? no one of them will use marauders because of lower DPS than Pirate and Navy BS's. That's sad but true  Marauders start to have more and more useless bonuses, like now tractor bonus (useless because of tractor tower comming in Rubicon). Nothing matters as much as gank. when the geddon used to be a "geddon" and not a drone boat, i used to run a tracking computer scripted for tracking and a painter II. i used a burner to get then to fight me on a linear type field and they would run into my megapulse. due to the sig radius increase, my tracking bonus and them chasing me, i would get excellent and wrecking shots A LOT. decimating the blood raiders i fought at the time. now, we have a ship that can jump out 100km and snipe forcing the rats to run 100km into our lasers (no transversal) and we gain a 30% bonus to tracking and you guys dont think you're going to have better dps? thats crazy. just because i cant write it out on paper doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. 120km mega pulse on a paladin. as they close range, switch to a tracking script and REALLY start hitting wrecking shots. if they get in too close, switch to a farther out target until bastion is done and jump away. then, start the slaughter all over. the torp golem is the one with the issues. all other ones are going to smoke npc's. dont deploy in pvp unless you are setup for it. 1/2 your fleet jump 100km away from you and stick logi in the middle. they can reach both groups and you are at the optimal of the other group. if the bad guys are hitting group 1, group 2 can deploy and really start dishing it out. only go for 1 cycle at a time. then redeploy. if not, then no one deploy and the logi keep you alive. they still have the power of 10 large weapons...and a super tank with logi lubbin. no need to deploy all the time. use when its best too...not every time. /agreed However, like I've mentioned, if you're using a torp Golem you're doing it wrong. The buffs they made to cruise missiles last year made them outstanding. You can do 1015 dps at 166km fairly easily. And that's without bastion. And what about defender missiles? 1 missile = -25% of damage... Torp Golem has significant advantages in some missions (Damsel, Enemies Abound), but what is the advantage of Cruise Golem over CNR? Salvaging? with this new changes you get a lot more negative things for a cruise Golem: less speed, slower align, less drones, less cap. I'm sorry but if there is no Damage bonus or damage application bonus (explosion radius and velocity), then Bastion gives nothing and no bastion mode looses tank...
Fury Cruise do just about the same damage as faction torps. The dps difference is minute and application with a target painter is excellent. Torps have no compelling reason to use as they are slow and have horrible application. Rage torps are horrid for anything without dual webs and multiple tp's on the target. That paper dps is just that. They work on stealth bombers, otherwise you are better off using cruise on a bs than torps no matter what you are doing.
I fly a cruise missle CNR all the time. It is a wonderful ship. I haven't moved to a Golem because there is not a compelling reason to do so outside of saving isk on missiles (which the CNR is not expensive in that regard anyway). The target painter bonus would help a tad, but only on elite frigs which usually get one volley by my precision cruise anyway. The drones really are a non issue at 100km+, they really are only backup. That means it doesn't provide any added benefit dps wise or range over my current CNR setup as torps do not have the applied dps that cruise missiles do. The proposed versions won't as well. The added tank is not necessary for pve in my particular use. If I am doing anything under 50km is the only time I even take noticeable damage that a boost every once in a while won't take care of. I don't currently mission, but the CNR is going to be more attractive in most situations. That's ok in and of itself, so what is the Golem for? It needs a specific, usable role.
The Golem with cruise will do the same dps as the CNR at the same usable ranges, so no bonus there. The torp version doesn't really do a compelling amount of extra applied dps to even fit, and a Rapid Heavy Missile Rubicon fit will also do the same dps as the CNR, but at a greater distance. A possible niche for the Golem. Not sure if I want to fly one as slow as they are, but MJD'n all over the place seems fun.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:39:00 -
[4288] - Quote
Even if you deploy one of those structures, it's going to pull all the wrecks into one location. You'll still have to sit within 5k of the thing to be able to salvage those wrecks or have to wait for your salvage drones to bring the stuff back to you if you are further away; after which you'll have to return to the structure to pick up your loot. This cycle would repeat FOR EVERY ROOM of the mission. So basically unless you deploy and stay next to it you are adding even more travel and loot time to every room of the mission than you have now.
If you go with a salvage based structure as I proposed earlier, the salvage is collected into a single location leaving only loot cans from the wrecks that had loot to begin with. Think how much time would be saved by not having to relocate the empty wrecks. If the structure tractors all wrecks, both empty and non-empty, it spent time relocating wrecks that didn't have loot. If you don't plan on salvaging and only looting this wastes valuable time. If it doesn't relocate empty wrecks, now you still have to fit a tractor or 2 to retrieve those wrecks for salvaging unless you are using salvage drones.
I think I'm going to do a separate thread about that structure and some alternatives. As it stands now i don't think it provides any real benefits to the Marauder class and might not really help other hulls either. Salvaging is the real time consumer especially if you use drones. It's not the relocating of wrecks, at least not in my experience. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:51:00 -
[4289] - Quote
I like the idea for a smartbomb bonus instead of one to tractor beams. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Yverlyn Outamon
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:57:00 -
[4290] - Quote
Feels strange that the reboot of the BO ship (one of them) might end up better for missioning than the so called king of PvE |
|

Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 18:58:00 -
[4291] - Quote
I'd trade tractor beam bonus for a smart bomb bonus any day of the week. It could be anything from more range, to faster cycle time, to less cap use, or even a reduction in cpu requirement for the module. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1295
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 19:05:00 -
[4292] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I like the idea for a smartbomb bonus instead of one to tractor beams.
yeah tractor beam bonus is moot now that there is a deployable tractor beam structure.
though i am not sold on the idea of a smartbomb bonus. i would perhaps prefer a scan probe bonus...
the high slot layout i would use for deep space solo ratting/plexing would be 4 turrets/missiles then a scan probe a cloak a bastion mod and a nuet/nos
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 19:40:00 -
[4293] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I like the idea for a smartbomb bonus instead of one to tractor beams. yeah tractor beam bonus is moot now that there is a deployable tractor beam structure. though i am not sold on the idea of a smartbomb bonus. i would perhaps prefer a scan probe bonus... the high slot layout i would use for deep space solo ratting/plexing would be 4 turrets/missiles then a scan probe a cloak a bastion mod and a nuet/nos/smartbomb
With the idea of revamping the ships is to overhaul both their pve side and give them a more attractive pvp side in mind a bonus to Smartbombs applies to both. At current highslot layout will look somewhat like this :
4Weapons High Slots 1Bastion High Slot 0 to 3 Salvagers High Slot 0 to 3 Smartbomb High Slot
I'm not even taking into consideration location of wrecks or anything like that, I simply believe this gives all the ships from Golem to Paladin a fair ability to perform well in both up close and ranged combat. As Marauders state:
"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines." -Paladin Info
These ships are supposed to be tanky, thank you t2 resist. And have great weapons technology which means they should be able to do a great deal up close and far away, at current the range bonus but no tracking bonus favors all these ships to be looked at as though they are giant snipers boat and nothing more. To me this limits their ability to adapt horribly especially when using the module. The idea of a smartbomb bonus with a % range bonus(long enough to hit anything that can scram not using a disruptor) makes them capable close and medium range combat ships in pve&pvp while in bastion mode rather than the more limited "I need tracking enhancers and to MJD if I see something get close" problem. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1295
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 19:54:00 -
[4294] - Quote
Narcotic Gryffin wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I like the idea for a smartbomb bonus instead of one to tractor beams. yeah tractor beam bonus is moot now that there is a deployable tractor beam structure. though i am not sold on the idea of a smartbomb bonus. i would perhaps prefer a scan probe bonus... the high slot layout i would use for deep space solo ratting/plexing would be 4 turrets/missiles then a scan probe a cloak a bastion mod and a nuet/nos/smartbomb With the idea of revamping the ships is to overhaul both their pve side and give them a more attractive pvp side in mind a bonus to Smartbombs applies to both. At current highslot layout will look somewhat like this : 4Weapons High Slots 1Bastion High Slot 0 to 3 Salvagers High Slot 0 to 3 Smartbomb High Slot I'm not even taking into consideration location of wrecks or anything like that, I simply believe this gives all the ships from Golem to Paladin a fair ability to perform well in both up close and ranged combat. As Marauders state: "Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines." -Paladin Info These ships are supposed to be tanky, thank you t2 resist. And have great weapons technology which means they should be able to do a great deal up close and far away, at current the range bonus but no tracking bonus favors all these ships to be looked at as though they are giant snipers boat and nothing more. To me this limits their ability to adapt horribly especially when using the module. The idea of a smartbomb bonus with a % range bonus(long enough to hit anything that can scram not using a disruptor) makes them capable close and medium range combat ships in pve&pvp while in bastion mode rather than the more limited "I need tracking enhancers and to MJD if I see something get close" problem.
maybe its just me but i feel that smartbombs should never be a ship bonus for a ship that also has a strong pve design. mainly because smartbombs and high sec no do not mesh that well.
probes on the other hand get bonus to pvp and pve.
IMO as a tertiary role bonus probe strength bonus would be better then a smartbomb bonus.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 20:11:00 -
[4295] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Update here. As we have hinted several times before, Marauders are next on the Tech2 to-do list. And guess what? It's feedback time!
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As CCP Ytterbium put here they are shying away from just a pve buff, so I don't see the point in putting in another ship with scanning bonuses, the strategic cruisers and t2 frigs have them and soon to be more than likely the soe ships as well. I can see the argument that smartbombs dont mesh well with high sec and probing bonus would, this is a given. But as with many things these ships aren't isolated to high sec thats the players choice plus a battleship that can quickly scan people down in nullsec just sounds like it would **** people off who are normally scanning things down in an anathema then docking back up to get a better ship to do the ded site per say.
And as I quoted from the paladins ship info earlier : "While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming" So I don't see how their probe strength would be better than their ships sensor strength, doesn't make much sense to me unless the sensor strength is major boosted suddenly then its an in line idea with the rest of the ship.
That's my input on making it balanced. It is reasonable to say ditch both ideas and give it a automated salvage ability in place of these ideas and the tractor bonus as it will still fit the original description. It could be as simple as once you get in range your ships salvage modules automatically lock and go. Not saying great or balanced per say but just an idea. |

Kyathab
Lions Of Judah Insidious Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 20:17:00 -
[4296] - Quote
Must say i do like the idea's you got for the marauder's. Lovely to finally see the T2 resists on them and the bastion mode makes em into beastly tanks, but these are all buffs to the tank and turns them into a death trap when faced against a single dread.
My biggest gripe with the Marauders is their DPS, i'm pretty sure they are supposed to be "the" end game PvE ship, but let's face it when it's come to PvE what matters to people is the amount of ISK you make, and that's primarily tied into how fast you can kill ****. Right now the Marauder just doesnt cut it, there are plenty of Faction/Navy BS's that can do more DPS or at least equal and even Sentry Carrier's can do more DPS/Tank better and not to mention they've lots of other benefits, and these ships all cost about the same or is cheaper than the marauder often.
So even thou i love the tank bonuses, for me it wont add anything i can run my 10/10 escalations solo and C3 WH's (been too scared to try harder WH's). My tank isnt even something "too fancy" (bit cheaper than hull all in all) Deadspace booster, cheap faction and the rest T2, and in truth it would prolly be more ineffecient for me to run with the bastion module since now i'm moving to the next gate while shooting.
So i really hope to see some DPS buffs built into the bastion mode. Right now i would trade any and all proposed changes for the Marauders just for some extra DPS. I want my marauder to be my PvE ship but right now i've got other ships that performs better in that role and i dont see that changing unless it get more DPS. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1295
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 20:34:00 -
[4297] - Quote
Narcotic Gryffin wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Update here. As we have hinted several times before, Marauders are next on the Tech2 to-do list. And guess what? It's feedback time!
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As CCP Ytterbium put here they are shying away from just a pve buff, so I don't see the point in putting in another ship with scanning bonuses, the strategic cruisers and t2 frigs have them and soon to be more than likely the soe ships as well. I can see the argument that smartbombs dont mesh well with high sec and probing bonus would, this is a given. But as with many things these ships aren't isolated to high sec thats the players choice plus a battleship that can quickly scan people down in nullsec just sounds like it would **** people off who are normally scanning things down in an anathema then docking back up to get a better ship to do the ded site per say. And as I quoted from the paladins ship info earlier : "While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming" So I don't see how their probe strength would be better than their ships sensor strength, doesn't make much sense to me unless the sensor strength is major boosted suddenly then its an in line idea with the rest of the ship. That's my input on making it balanced. It is reasonable to say ditch both ideas and give it a automated salvage ability in place of these ideas and the tractor bonus as it will still fit the original description. It could be as simple as once you get in range your ships salvage modules automatically lock and go. Not saying great or balanced per say but just an idea.
yeah ok ditch both ideas. as you did mention soe ships...
though i am going to hatch my idea from earlier in the thread.
a bonus to target spectrum breakers. remove the targeting penalty.
i mean a ship designed to go into mini siege mode meshes perfectly with a the TSB. and would have direct pvp/pve ramifications.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1296
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 20:37:00 -
[4298] - Quote
Kyathab wrote:Must say i do like the idea's you got for the marauder's. Lovely to finally see the T2 resists on them and the bastion mode makes em into beastly tanks, but these are all buffs to the tank and turns them into a death trap when faced against a single dread.
My biggest gripe with the Marauders is their DPS, i'm pretty sure they are supposed to be "the" end game PvE ship, but let's face it when it's come to PvE what matters to people is the amount of ISK you make, and that's primarily tied into how fast you can kill ****. Right now the Marauder just doesnt cut it, there are plenty of Faction/Navy BS's that can do more DPS or at least equal and even Sentry Carrier's can do more DPS/Tank better and not to mention they've lots of other benefits, and these ships all cost about the same or is cheaper than the marauder often.
So even thou i love the tank bonuses, for me it wont add anything i can run my 10/10 escalations solo and C3 WH's (been too scared to try harder WH's). My tank isnt even something "too fancy" (bit cheaper than hull all in all) Deadspace booster, cheap faction and the rest T2, and in truth it would prolly be more ineffecient for me to run with the bastion module since now i'm moving to the next gate while shooting.
So i really hope to see some DPS buffs built into the bastion mode. Right now i would trade any and all proposed changes for the Marauders just for some extra DPS. I want my marauder to be my PvE ship but right now i've got other ships that performs better in that role and i dont see that changing unless it get more DPS.
i would like to see scripts for the bastion mod. one that increases the range of weapons and one that increases the damage of weapons.
that way you choose between extra dps or extra range...
example you are in a kronos and you have the damage scirpt in to kill stuff fast. but then a vegabond drops by and starts kiting you and you cant hit the side of a barn with his transversal. so you swap for the range/tracking script and presto you can now start hitting him back and maybe even cause him to bail. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1297
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 21:11:00 -
[4299] - Quote
i would like to see the stasis webbifier bonus mitigated to the bastion mod. and with the idea of Scripts for the bastion mod i would do this.
for the damage script i would add the strength bonus to webs and for the range scirpt i would add range to webbs.
i would call one script the "close range script" and the other the "long range script"
bonus for close range script: 10% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 10% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 37.5% bonus to stasis webifier strength
then for the long range one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% 250% increase in range of stasis webs.
then without scripts: 5% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 5% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 18.75% bonus to stasis webifier strength Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% 125% increase in range of stasis webs.
i would also bring back the 30% bonus to resists but only for hull.
if ccp did this along with adding the role bonus to target spectrum breakers i think the ships would be in a really good place. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers High Rollers
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 21:22:00 -
[4300] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i would like to see the stasis webbifier bonus mitigated to the bastion mod. and with the idea of Scripts for the bastion mod i would do this.
for the damage script i would add the strength bonus to webs and for the range scirpt i would add range to webbs.
i would call one script the "close range script" and the other the "long range script"
bonus for close range script: 10% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 10% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 37.5% bonus to stasis webifier strength
then for the long range one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% 250% increase in range of stasis webs.
then without scripts: 5% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 5% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 18.75% bonus to stasis webifier strength Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% 125% increase in range of stasis webs.
i would also bring back the 30% bonus to resists but only for hull.
if ccp did this along with adding the role bonus to target spectrum breakers i think the ships would be in a really good place.
I really really really like this idea. |
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
181
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 22:43:00 -
[4301] - Quote
Rendiff wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i would like to see the stasis webbifier bonus mitigated to the bastion mod. and with the idea of Scripts for the bastion mod i would do this.
for the damage script i would add the strength bonus to webs and for the range scirpt i would add range to webbs.
i would call one script the "close range script" and the other the "long range script"
bonus for close range script: 10% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 10% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 37.5% bonus to stasis webifier strength
then for the long range one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% 250% increase in range of stasis webs.
then without scripts: 5% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 5% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 18.75% bonus to stasis webifier strength Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% 125% increase in range of stasis webs.
i would also bring back the 30% bonus to resists but only for hull.
if ccp did this along with adding the role bonus to target spectrum breakers i think the ships would be in a really good place. I really really really like this idea.
Dito. The nice thing about it is that if CCP is content with forcing the player to use a mod to make a ship even somewhat viable for anything, at least an idea like this gives the player some options. "I need to go into bastion, now there are some ways I can do this...do I need range or do I need damage" looks a lot better than CCP's current "one-trick pony" bastion mod.
Either way, I think I'm done with this whole "Marauder Rebalance" business. I've already bought a CNR and have plans to later get a Napoc, while my marauders both sit in station for now. Once November comes and goes, if marauders get shafted, then I simply take them both to a trade hub for selling. It'll be sad to see them go (esp the paladin, really love that laser beast), but no sense just hoping with crossed fingers. Having Marauders V use to feel good, now it just feels embarrassing.
|

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:19:00 -
[4302] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Narcotic Gryffin wrote:good points yeah ok ditch both ideas. as you did mention soe ships... not sure if i support a salvage bonus as thats really pve and steps on the noctice. and you can allways use salavage drones anyways... though i am going to hatch my idea from earlier in the thread. a bonus to target spectrum breakers. remove the targeting penalty. i mean a ship designed to go into mini siege mode meshes perfectly with a the TSB. and would have direct pvp/pve ramifications.
Tbh I've never played with a TSB before and have no idea how effective it is pvp or pve (can someone look into the difference?).
I am in some agreement with you that there should be a damage buff to the Bastion module, maybe not in the form of scripts but I do feel that if I were to make a comparison we should look at the siege tank from starcraft awesome damage and and range at a cost of immobility for 60 seconds and not much can be done up close.
I'll give you the scripts idea is nice however in the terms that you put it in a "close range script" and a "long range script" its kind of like saying the difference between pulse and beam lasers isn't there, because I can just switch a script and be the jack of all trades. Seems a little too much of an advantage. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1302
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:50:00 -
[4303] - Quote
Narcotic Gryffin wrote:
Tbh I've never played with a TSB before and have no idea how effective it is pvp or pve (can someone look into the difference?).
I am in some agreement with you that there should be a damage buff to the Bastion module, maybe not in the form of scripts but I do feel that if I were to make a comparison we should look at the siege tank from starcraft awesome damage and and range at a cost of immobility for 60 seconds and not much can be done up close.
I'll give you the scripts idea is nice however in the terms that you put it in a "close range script" and a "long range script" its kind of like saying the difference between pulse and beam lasers isn't there, because I can just switch a script and be the jack of all trades. Seems a little too much of an advantage.
well there are tradeoffs like with the rate of fire increase also increases cap usage for energy and hybrids...
plus to change scripts you have to go out of bastion mod and load the new script and then go back in... so its not instant it takes atleast one minute. furthermore you could be under lots of incoming damage and it might not be worth it to leave bastion cuss your tank would break.
mostly the TSB is not used because it means when active you loose 25% scan resolution plus friendly cannot lock you and so you cant get RR.
but that does not matter with the bastion mod because you cant get RR anyways. so they would go hand in hand. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 01:46:00 -
[4304] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Narcotic Gryffin wrote:
Tbh I've never played with a TSB before and have no idea how effective it is pvp or pve (can someone look into the difference?).
I am in some agreement with you that there should be a damage buff to the Bastion module, maybe not in the form of scripts but I do feel that if I were to make a comparison we should look at the siege tank from starcraft awesome damage and and range at a cost of immobility for 60 seconds and not much can be done up close.
I'll give you the scripts idea is nice however in the terms that you put it in a "close range script" and a "long range script" its kind of like saying the difference between pulse and beam lasers isn't there, because I can just switch a script and be the jack of all trades. Seems a little too much of an advantage.
well there are tradeoffs like with the rate of fire increase also increases cap usage for energy and hybrids... plus to change scripts you have to go out of bastion mod and load the new script and then go back in... so its not instant it takes atleast one minute. furthermore you could be under lots of incoming damage and it might not be worth it to leave bastion cuss your tank would break. mostly the TSB is not used because it means when active you loose 25% scan resolution plus friendly cannot lock you and so you cant get RR. but that does not matter with the bastion mod because you cant get RR anyways. so they would go hand in hand.
Well under those circumstances they would be a much more viable option and testable. I'm just not sure CCP would have the time for that much detail on marauders till the expansion thats quiet a few restricting circumstances which means more work for CCP. Also does the TSB work as well for PVE or do they pretty much just relock really quick?
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1302
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 02:13:00 -
[4305] - Quote
Narcotic Gryffin wrote:
Well under those circumstances they would be a much more viable option and testable. I'm just not sure CCP would have the time for that much detail on marauders till the expansion thats quiet a few restricting circumstances which means more work for CCP. Also does the TSB work as well for PVE or do they pretty much just relock really quick?
AFAIK there is no 20 second lock break as seen with ecm. its the trade off of breaking every ships lock vrs one. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 06:00:00 -
[4306] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Rendiff wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i would like to see the stasis webbifier bonus mitigated to the bastion mod. and with the idea of Scripts for the bastion mod i would do this.
for the damage script i would add the strength bonus to webs and for the range scirpt i would add range to webbs.
i would call one script the "close range script" and the other the "long range script"
bonus for close range script: 10% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 10% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 37.5% bonus to stasis webifier strength
then for the long range one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% 250% increase in range of stasis webs.
then without scripts: 5% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 5% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 18.75% bonus to stasis webifier strength Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% 125% increase in range of stasis webs.
i would also bring back the 30% bonus to resists but only for hull.
if ccp did this along with adding the role bonus to target spectrum breakers i think the ships would be in a really good place. I really really really like this idea. Dito. The nice thing about it is that if CCP is content with forcing the player to use a mod to make a ship even somewhat viable for anything, at least an idea like this gives the player some options. "I need to go into bastion, now there are some ways I can do this...do I need range or do I need damage" looks a lot better than CCP's current "one-trick pony" bastion mod. Either way, I think I'm done with this whole "Marauder Rebalance" business. I've already bought a CNR and have plans to later get a Napoc, while my marauders both sit in station for now. Once November comes and goes, if marauders get shafted, then I simply take them both to a trade hub for selling. It'll be sad to see them go (esp the paladin, really love that laser beast), but no sense just hoping with crossed fingers. Having Marauders V use to feel good, now it just feels embarrassing.
the team at CCP has already been presented with options that operate on this principle and they have been completely disregarded, they are apparently set on forcing through yet another of their 'no real implementation effort' changes just to see the realization of what they think they want to be there, so our only real option is to watch it happen, not use marauders OR bastion, and watch them wonder why no one's using this cool new toy they gave everyone.
as for the target spectrum breaker module, it increases in 'strength' for every ship that has a target lock on yours, so the more people targeting you the more likely it becomes that they all lose target lock, friends and foes alike.
good move to have i think but there's a reason no one makes common use of the module - I can't begin to reasonably suggest what it is as i have never looked into their use with any real seriousness but i believe it's likely to be in preference of saving the mid slots on battleships for something more immediately useful like tank or tracking. |

STush T
Capital Sin
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 06:39:00 -
[4307] - Quote
I fly a Paladin so will only comment on it,
I use T2 pulses, I have a MWD fit for maneuvering, I dont bother with a web since I used it only once in a great while, so i just let the drones take care of the frigates. What i really want for my paladin is tractor beams that are faster, a big buff to salvage cycle time, and the biggest complaint though is having to rely on drones for dps when scorch is reduced to 5km.
So with the new setup it might look like this, -Beams for the reach after the 100km jump, -Deploy the new tractor beam platform thing and hopefully it reaches the wrecks, otherwise your slowboating it, very slowly. . . -salvagers in the 3 utility slots since it still doesnt have a salvager bonus -Since there are beams on it, cruisers will get under the guns, but to far for the web, so the web is limited on its use. . . still, so more use of the drones except now its only light drones. So in sansha blockade that means that your paladin is using light drones to take out both cruisers and frigates, while your guns are useless. Could mjd, but your guns are still useless because of the ewar and now your drones are out of reach sooo. . . not effective, however -with the bastion mod on, you could jump, deploy, snipe away. Seems effective, looking forward to it , but. . .still no use for the web so ill just keep ignoring that bonus.
I guess in the end, for me, I like it, except for the lack of salvager bonus, and need to rely on the tractor beam platform, which is alright assuming its small enough to fit in the cargo bay and still leave room for loot and salvage, and it still has the web bonus which is useless for pve, but hey, pvpers have fun. Wish there was some way to increase the DPS. . .
It will be interesting to see how this is used.
ps, 213 posts, really, does anyone read posts on pages 4 through 213? |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 09:02:00 -
[4308] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i would like to see the stasis webbifier bonus mitigated to the bastion mod. and with the idea of Scripts for the bastion mod i would do this.
for the damage script i would add the strength bonus to webs and for the range scirpt i would add range to webbs.
i would call one script the "close range script" and the other the "long range script"
bonus for close range script: 10% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 10% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 37.5% bonus to stasis webifier strength
then for the long range one: Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% 250% increase in range of stasis webs.
then without scripts: 5% bonus to large turret damage and rate of fire 5% bonus to cruise/torp/rapid missile launcher damage/rate of fire 18.75% bonus to stasis webifier strength Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5% Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5% 125% increase in range of stasis webs.
i would also bring back the 30% bonus to resists but only for hull.
if ccp did this along with adding the role bonus to target spectrum breakers i think the ships would be in a really good place.
I like the Idea, but stick the bonus that counts on the hull on the ship for tank/dps in the Marauder skill - so skilling it to 5 for nearly 2 months, has to be a must have, if you want to fly one.
|

Lady Joan
Solum Perimit
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 09:28:00 -
[4309] - Quote
hi to all
I didn't read all the pages on this threat, but y want to give my opinion on the changes to marauders.
so y can fly all of them, but y don't do it because the navy versions of them at the moment are better for PvE and y don't do PvP, the pirate ships are a lot better. so this is a ship that requires a loot of training, isn't cheap and doesn't deliver performance. they do less damage and after the changes they will do even less damage because the are losing drone bay and bandwidth.
you can argue that the tank better y have a navy scorpion whit more than 1k of tank per MIN, cap stable, around 800 DPS on light drones + t1 missiles after the patch a torpedo golem does less than 1000 DPS and loses a loot of range, can tank a loot more by himself yes, but if you have a logistic ship whit you the scorpion tanks more.
the golem takes longer to get the skills and costs around 50% more ISK.
the only one that is more or less OK at the moment is the paladin.
the new bastion module isn't going to be use in incursions y think, cannot be remote assisted in any way is a no in incursions, and if some how you could tank by your self a incursions room in a marauder, why do it in group then.
so what y propose to make the marauders a ship to use in PvP and PvE
changes to bastion module Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 10% per skill level (high energy physics) Increases all large missile max velocity by 10% per skill level (high energy physics) increases all large missile and large turret damage by 10% per skill level (high energy physics) and extend the activation cycle to 5 minutes to make the pilot more committed to the task.
on the marauders remove the 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, with the use of noctis and the new deployable structure that get all the recks in one place it makes no sense to me, and put a bonus to salvager. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
162
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 11:13:00 -
[4310] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i would like to see the stasis webbifier bonus mitigated to the bastion mod. and with the idea of Scripts for the bastion mod i would do this.
How about no, since for most cases when the web bonus really is important the bastion module is absolute useless(point in case WH gangs, dualboxing L4 or Incs). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
212
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 11:15:00 -
[4311] - Quote
How about an update? I think Rubicon has thrown a wrench into some of the roll bonuses... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Deliram
BuBBleZ UP Northern Associates.
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 11:21:00 -
[4312] - Quote
I agree with the vision that this type of modification is pretty much throwing away the marauder from the PvE scenario. I can speak for gallente ships, a Kronos don't add that much in the equation when you do Anomalies, Missions or wathever. Later, since they do the same DPS with the guns, but will have no drones i think they will become totally useless, giving the fact that to use them properly you have to undergo a long training and spend a LOT of skillpoints in skills that maybe will give you nothing else. On the other hand to get and fly a normal dominix you require less skills, and pretty much the same amount of DPS(give or take 100dps). That's all PVE is about, DPS is the miningyield of the combat pilots.
So you can give the marauders all the utility that you want, but if it can't surpass the Dps of other ships you will never seen them in pve that much. Why to fly a expensive Ship(isk and Sp wise), that usually requires a expensive fit, if you can get more or less the same in ALL racial ambit with other less expensive ships? I don't see the fact that you can salvage meanwhile worth. I mean, you can have the same ship with better bonus on the weapon system, so you get more or less the same DPS, AND you can use the salvaging drones instead of the tractor/salvager. I think it's a cheaper, more effective way. So maybe give them the ability to use drones, don't take out that and nerf some other aspect that really make this ship a jack of all trade and master of none.
For pvp i don't know much, on paper they can make a fearsome fleet given the proper doctrine. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
212
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 11:26:00 -
[4313] - Quote
I made this suggestion in another thread, but I'll post it here as well. To address the concerns with the MJD, cause it to default to a jump distance of 50km (instead of 100km) on abort only. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 11:53:00 -
[4314] - Quote
STush T wrote:I fly a Paladin so will only comment on it, and it still has the web bonus which is useless for pve, but hey, pvpers have fun.
I keep seeing this all the way through and I can only assume it is a symptom of people who don't know anything beyond 'whack-a-mole' PVE (i.e. level 4 missions) 
The whole point of this is the game is moving away from this stove-piping of activities into 'PVE' vs. 'PVP' - good riddance to it too, I hope to see more changes to make PVE more 'PVP-like' in the future.
For high-end PVE (Incursions e.t.c) web bonuses are worth their weight in gold, and for PVP, nothing has really changed since they were taken off all ships back in 2008.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Deliram
BuBBleZ UP Northern Associates.
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 12:11:00 -
[4315] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:STush T wrote:I fly a Paladin so will only comment on it, and it still has the web bonus which is useless for pve, but hey, pvpers have fun.
I keep seeing this all the way through and I can only assume it is a symptom of people who don't know anything beyond 'whack-a-mole' PVE (i.e. level 4 missions)  The whole point of this is the game is moving away from this stove-piping of activities into 'PVE' vs. 'PVP' - good riddance to it too, I hope to see more changes to make PVE more 'PVP-like' in the future. For high-end PVE (Incursions e.t.c) web bonuses are worth their weight in gold, and for PVP, nothing has really changed since they were taken off all ships back in 2008. Well, PVE = Mission, Incursion, 0.0 anomalies, Ratting ecc.. I don't get what you say maybe...Incursions are more pvp likely, then this modifications on marauders work in them, but not in missions/anomalies/ratting? I never went to a incursion, but i can tell you in almost every other pve activity having a webifier is useless unless i think if you use missiles. All you need to do is going 100-150 km away and shoot in optimal range to red dots that pop every 3-5secs. So yes, i agree saying that at least kronos + web + watheverotherstuffcando - Drone Dps = less isk/hour
Then, you blame me and him because the game contenent is done in this way? Then propose they change lvl 4 missions/ratting/anomalies, in another topic. As it stand now higher dps is almost always translater in better isk/h, and that's what PVE is. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
162
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:17:00 -
[4316] - Quote
Deliram wrote: I never went to a incursion, but i can tell you in almost every other pve activity having a webifier is useless unless i think if you use missiles. All you need to do is going 100-150 km away and shoot in optimal range to red dots that pop every 3-5secs. So yes, i agree saying that at least kronos + web + watheverotherstuffcando - Drone Dps = less isk/hour
A 90% web is very useful for dualboxing L4(I used a Kronos + navy apoc) since you don't use small drones(100% sentry dps uptime), you want to get in a range where you can max dps(what isn't 100km away) and if a frig spawns to close or gets to close, you web it down while shooting other stuff and one hit it with a close range turret fitted ship(navy Apoc in my case). That is a lot faster than relaying on light drone and miles quicker than what you could expect with a MJD fitting, since it gives you full turret and full sentry dps over the full mission, instead of gimping your dps by range and making you unable to project sentry dps.
I however would agree that the lose of sentry's will make the Kronos(and other marauders) a inferior choice for effective PVE in general with the current iteration of the changes, compared to the faction/pirate BS. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
487
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:58:00 -
[4317] - Quote
ok... So here's the model I feel that they should follow on the basis of these ships.
1) Design the hull to be a functional ship hull. There is no reason why the hull should be nerfed for the sake of forcing bastion and MJD. Return all nerfs to the ships, and increase sensor strength a bit...
2) Design the hull to also be strong in a fleet, but it would still have the weakness of a lower than average sensor strength.
3) Get rid of the web bonus, as this is a special ability, and instead give them a bonus to drone tracking... not damage, just tracking.
4) Balance drone bays up more than they are now. Bw doesn't matter too much as long as they can field at least a flight of smalls.
5) Bastion can remain a module designed for solo use.
6) Since they're designed to long trips, give them a reduction in probe launcher fitting.. No bonus to probes, as that is a special of other ships.
7) Exchange tractor bonus for a salvager bonus, and ensure they can carry some of these tractor structures.
8) Return the 30% omni resists to bastion.. This could be balanced off t2 resists if necessary.
9) I'm still a fan of being able to dial in the range of the MJD with a range bonus to MJD.
10) Give bastion cap warfare immunity... If you can't receive it, then you shouldn't be able to lose it.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 15:05:00 -
[4318] - Quote
My issue with the current iteration is that it restricts playstyle choice over the version on TQ. The TQ version is flexible enough that a pilot can choose short or long range weapons. You can snipe from afar, sit and brawl, or as I like to do simply slowboat to the next gate as I clear the room. This is possible because the current set of bonuses are agnostic in how they apply to these playstyles (web bonuses not withstanding).
Iteration 2 fails to maintain this flexibility by reducing the base hull's capabilities through reduced speed, base EHP, and local repair potential. You do get T2 resists. However this only benefits some of the hulls and not all of them. The bastion attempts to return some of these abilities such as local repair potential. However the drawbacks of the module preclude it's use in the slowboat playstyle. The MJD role bonus is very nice for pilots who enjoy sniping their way through a mission. However, since the MJD range is not yet adjustable it is of little use to slowboaters or brawlers. The web bonus might be useful to slowboats and brawlers but does very little to improve the snipers gameplay.
Taking the sum total of bonuses on the hull and the proposed bastion module you might think they are quite powerful. However the hull and bastion bonuses don't cooperate to create a cohesive piloting experience. I'm all for T2 specialization as a general balancing concept. However, the selection available at the battleship level is quite limited. You have Marauders and Black Ops and that's it. Blops covers several realms of play and roles (and should probably be split up at some point). Marauders currently fill the direct combat T2 role but are purposely made less desirable in PvP due to abnormal sensor strength.
I would wholeheartedly get behind the idea of making Marauders the king of sniper warfare and adjust the bonuses to make that role even stronger, but only if the other types of direct combat were represented by additional hull classes. As it stands now, no one style of gameplay will able to utilize the full spectrum of hull and bastion bonuses. This doesn't seem to be the best choice for moving the Marauder hull class forward into the future.
Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 15:48:00 -
[4319] - Quote
haven't been here for a while. and golem is still piece of sh*t. kinda sad Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
488
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 15:54:00 -
[4320] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:haven't been here for a while. and golem is still piece of sh*t. kinda sad 
the funny thing is that you could argue the Golem is the best due to missiles. However, due to the fact that CCP in their infinite wisdom decided to make the Golem be the slowest, biggest, worst tank, and worst drone capabilities; This has managed to make the Golem just as bad as the rest...
So, the Golem can't fly in Caldari space, due to jams, can't fly in Minmatar space due to heavy damage and TPs, can't fly in Gallente space due to damps. However, if you can kill targets fast enough for them not to cap you out, then you might do ok in Amarr space.. Unfortunately, you'll have to stack your resist holes in order to do so... |
|

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 16:22:00 -
[4321] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:My issue with the current iteration is that it restricts playstyle choice over the version on TQ. The TQ version is flexible enough that a pilot can choose short or long range weapons. You can snipe from afar, sit and brawl, or as I like to do simply slowboat to the next gate as I clear the room. This is possible because the current set of bonuses are agnostic in how they apply to these playstyles (web bonuses not withstanding).
Iteration 2 fails to maintain this flexibility by reducing the base hull's capabilities through reduced speed, base EHP, and local repair potential. You do get T2 resists. However this only benefits some of the hulls and not all of them. The bastion attempts to return some of these abilities such as local repair potential. However the drawbacks of the module preclude it's use in the slowboat playstyle. The MJD role bonus is very nice for pilots who enjoy sniping their way through a mission. However, since the MJD range is not yet adjustable it is of little use to slowboaters or brawlers. The web bonus might be useful to slowboats and brawlers but does very little to improve the snipers gameplay.
Taking the sum total of bonuses on the hull and the proposed bastion module you might think they are quite powerful. However the hull and bastion bonuses don't cooperate to create a cohesive piloting experience. I'm all for T2 specialization as a general balancing concept. However, the selection available at the battleship level is quite limited. You have Marauders and Black Ops and that's it. Blops covers several realms of play and roles (and should probably be split up at some point). Marauders currently fill the direct combat T2 role but are purposely made less desirable in PvP due to abnormal sensor strength.
I would wholeheartedly get behind the idea of making Marauders the king of sniper warfare and adjust the bonuses to make that role even stronger, but only if the other types of direct combat were represented by additional hull classes. As it stands now, no one style of gameplay will able to utilize the full spectrum of hull and bastion bonuses. This doesn't seem to be the best choice for moving the Marauder hull class forward into the future.
agreed here, as they are the marauders fill the gap nicely but post bastion they won't fit into much of anything because many of the changes do not sit fluently within the same doctrine, they actually impede many of them,
range bonuses to snipers doesn't matter - the weapons already have range and can get the range with a TC or two, primary means of preserving snipers is to warp on and off grid to many points when things get dangerous, not being able to move destroys the primary means of defending these doctrines, and so bastion will be ignored.
range on close range ships is best used with higher mobility: being still or slow defeats the purpose of range bonused brawlers, you need to be able to maintain distance over your opposition in order to utilize the advantage of greater range, without this speed you are caught and quickly die.
MJD focus is irrelevant, If i carry long range doctrines i do not need to move to kill you, and i am using close range weapons i need to be able to move over a far more varied distance, the MWD becomes far more useful for the cost of a mid slot as i need to move between point ranges far more often than i need to jump 100km, i'm better off utilizing fleet scouts and blink warps while carrying a MWD than i am trying to depend on a MJD.
local repair bonuses aid one vs many smaller ships fights, active tanks have always failed in group vs group scenarios - one ship cannot defend against many of equal strength for long enough, this is why using more than one logi in tourney teams is illegal but local reps are not, and so the idea of trying to repair yourself under fire from many people when you have the alternative of relying on logistics instead is..well..moronic.
stasis web bonus doesn't matter to snipers or kites, you never want to be inside web range EVER - if you are it means you've died
it also doesn't matter to brawlers with nerfed speed, as they cannot close to engagement range of targets that must be webbed, the marauder is better off relying on its higher tracking speed and range than it is relying on powerful tackle and so i'm best fitting tracking computers or tank over a web, bonus or not.
there is nothing useful about the structure of bonuses being given to these ships for the cost, nothing that gives them a powerful application, because every strength they have is destroyed by an even greater weakness for the doctrine they choose to employ.
again, I am depressed by the shortsightedness of the development team here, for a group that was formed on the basis of their pvp and ship fitting experience they are doing a terrible job at actually applying any of it, or listening to the feedback their players are giving them. (yes i repeat this alot, but i'm getting kinda desperate for this part to get heard, the more i see these guys doing the wrong thing the greater my determination to set them right again becomes.) |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 16:41:00 -
[4322] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=zbaaca]So, the Golem can't fly in Caldari space, due to jams, can't fly in Minmatar space due to heavy damage and TPs, can't fly in Gallente space due to damps.
So, it needs EWAR immunity, now how could it get that?..... |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
263
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 16:48:00 -
[4323] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:zbaaca wrote:haven't been here for a while. and golem is still piece of sh*t. kinda sad  the funny thing is that you could argue the Golem is the best due to missiles. However, due to the fact that CCP in their infinite wisdom decided to make the Golem be the slowest, biggest, worst tank, and worst drone capabilities; This has managed to make the Golem just as bad as the rest... So, the Golem can't fly in Caldari space, due to jams, can't fly in Minmatar space due to heavy damage and TPs, can't fly in Gallente space due to damps. However, if you can kill targets fast enough for them not to cap you out, then you might do ok in Amarr space.. Unfortunately, you'll have to stack your resist holes in order to do so...
Given the capabilities of cruises (which are normally superior for pve anyways, thanks to otherworld application in comparison to torps //integrated Flares and Rigors huehue) I can't follow up on your issues. One minute of bastion is surely not an issue, I think you're talking about L4s, which can be tanked with even the most capefficient gist a-type small sheld booster on a golem. (tank on paper against 59% kin, 41% therm: 491 ehp/s on a golem (iteration II), using said SB and one kin, one therm shield hardener)
So concluding: You jump out of range of neutships immediately and start shooting them from -100-km-off-the-accel-gate- until they are done, I'd expect this shooting to not go significantly faster compared to the bastioncycletime. You can bastion up and ignore all the ewar. You got 1.2k m-¦ cargo space to even realize a dual-large-ASB fit to tank L5-missions in lowsec (given you can do so atm with dual X-large already / and the one minute bastion ain't a problem there in a mission - as dropping probes, combat scanning you, warping to you and jumping through gates to your position isn't doable in less than 60 seconds... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 17:21:00 -
[4324] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:zbaaca wrote:haven't been here for a while. and golem is still piece of sh*t. kinda sad  the funny thing is that you could argue the Golem is the best due to missiles. However, due to the fact that CCP in their infinite wisdom decided to make the Golem be the slowest, biggest, worst tank, and worst drone capabilities; This has managed to make the Golem just as bad as the rest... So, the Golem can't fly in Caldari space, due to jams, can't fly in Minmatar space due to heavy damage and TPs, can't fly in Gallente space due to damps. However, if you can kill targets fast enough for them not to cap you out, then you might do ok in Amarr space.. Unfortunately, you'll have to stack your resist holes in order to do so... Given the capabilities of cruises (which are normally superior for pve anyways, thanks to otherworld application in comparison to torps //integrated Flares and Rigors huehue) I can't follow up on your issues. One minute of bastion is surely not an issue, I think you're talking about L4s, which can be tanked with even the most capefficient gist a-type small sheld booster on a golem. (tank on paper against 59% kin, 41% therm: 491 ehp/s on a golem (iteration II), using said SB and one kin, one therm shield hardener) So concluding: You jump out of range of neutships immediately and start shooting them from -100-km-off-the-accel-gate- until they are done, I'd expect this shooting to not go significantly faster compared to the bastioncycletime. You can bastion up and ignore all the ewar. You got 1.2k m-¦ cargo space to even realize a dual-large-ASB fit to tank L5-missions in lowsec (given you can do so atm with dual X-large already / and the one minute bastion ain't a problem there in a mission - as dropping probes, combat scanning you, warping to you and jumping through gates to your position isn't doable in less than 60 seconds...
I have no idea what you were saying here, but it didn't have too much to do with what I said... (No offense)
That said, where are you flying these ships? Look, if you could build the exact same tank on a golem and a Raven, the raven would tank better due to a smaller sig. The sig of the Golem as it is on live is insane. However, the rebalance to cruise missiles last year actually did a lot to help the Golem.. It used to be that a cruise Golem was a waist and a torp Golem was the way to go. That has all changed now, and it's the other way around, which actually helps in PVE at least.
The Golem is probably a lot better now, as you can actually destroy targets with Cruise before they get in range. However, like I stated, when torp Golem used to be the way to go, you would get HAMMERED by the time you could actually hit your targets. With this in mind, without bastion at least, a torp Golem in bound to burn in a fire.
I'm fine with damage and projection on either iteration. it's the tank and nerfs to base hull I have the issues with.
So, Bring back iteration 1 resists. If they leave t2 resists, then balance accordingly. If they bring back rep bonus, the balance bastion rep accordingly. BUT LEAVE THE BASTION RESISTS IN.
We can't receive cap in bastion, so we should be immune to cap war while bastioned.
Revert the hull nerfs. This would allow more options of fit, and not being pigeon hole'd into bastion and MJD. The hull nerfs do nothing to balance bastion or MJD, and were implemented as nothing more than to force their use. (if you disagree with this, you're wrong) Even the increased mass doesn't make sense.
Revert drone bay nerfs to some extent. this again only seems to have been done for the sake of forcing the range bonus of bastion.
This allows the base hull to have the option of brawling or sniping without being hendered by sniping and being much more fleet friendly, while allowing bastion to do the same, but with much more strengths with one major weakness(mobility).
Now you have a fleet ship that can brawl or snip, and a solo ship that can brawl or snip. Leave it up to the players to decide which combo they want. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 17:26:00 -
[4325] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: the funny thing is that you could argue the Golem is the best due to missiles. However, due to the fact that CCP in their infinite wisdom decided to make the Golem be the slowest, biggest, worst tank, and worst drone capabilities; This has managed to make the Golem just as bad as the rest...
So, the Golem can't fly in Caldari space, due to jams, can't fly in Minmatar space due to heavy damage and TPs, can't fly in Gallente space due to damps. However, if you can kill targets fast enough for them not to cap you out, then you might do ok in Amarr space.. Unfortunately, you'll have to stack your resist holes in order to do so...
target painter bonus is legacy sh*t . if some one think it is better then exp vel\rad bonus instead , then just switch tracking bonuses to TP on other ships to be fair and TP bonus is incompatible with that stupid web one (imho) if it was like reckons range then it was superb, but it is not. bastion bonuses good only for torps and useless for CM Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 17:30:00 -
[4326] - Quote
THANK YOU for the proposal for T2 resists.
There is one bit of of information that could use some feedback to benefit the team changing marauders: "Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. "
This states that I NEED cargo for POSSIBLE salvaging. I would like to know how many players that currently make significant use of this ship actually use the salvager and tractor beams instead of a Notics. Also, how many players would even consider using them when new deployable structures come about? Maybe new technology such as the Notics and deployable structures are making this role bonus antiquated.
Wedgetail wrote: agreed here, as they are the marauders fill the gap nicely but post bastion they won't fit into much of anything because many of the changes do not sit fluently within the same doctrine, they actually impede many of them,
range bonuses to snipers doesn't matter - the weapons already have range and can get the range with a TC or two, primary means of preserving snipers is to warp on and off grid to many points when things get dangerous, not being able to move destroys the primary means of defending these doctrines, and so bastion will be ignored.
range on close range ships is best used with higher mobility: being still or slow defeats the purpose of range bonused brawlers, you need to be able to maintain distance over your opposition in order to utilize the advantage of greater range, without this speed you are caught and quickly die, as the primary defense of this doctrine is damage mitigation through range control - you have a better fire position relative to your target and can keep it that way.
MJD focus is irrelevant, If i carry long range doctrines i do not need to move to kill you, if i do need to move or am opposed by snipers a MJD does not cause those locking me to lose targeting lock or aquisition, i will be in just as much danger after i have moved than i was before, if i aim to run to 'safe distance' i am better off simply warping away, or to another bookmark in a different position - this will cause target acquisition breaks and re-locks, as well as forcing my opponent to re-position which is much more beneficial to me.
and if i am using close range weapons i need to be able to move over a far more varied distance, the MWD becomes far more useful for the cost of a mid slot as i need to move between point ranges far more often than i need to jump 100km, i'm better off utilizing fleet scouts and blink warps while carrying a MWD than i am trying to depend on a MJD.
local repair bonuses aid one vs many smaller ships fights, active tanks have always failed in group vs group scenarios - one ship cannot defend against many of equal strength for long enough, this is why using more than one logi in tourney teams is illegal but local reps are not, and so the idea of trying to repair yourself under fire from many people when you have the alternative of relying on logistics instead is..well..moronic.
stasis web bonus doesn't matter to snipers or kites, you never want to be inside web range EVER - if you are it means you've died
it also doesn't matter to brawlers with nerfed speed, as they cannot close to engagement range of targets that must be webbed, the marauder is better off relying on its higher tracking speed and range than it is relying on powerful tackle and so i'm best fitting tracking computers or tank over a web, bonus or not.
there is nothing useful about the structure of bonuses being given to these ships for the cost, nothing that gives them a powerful application, because every strength they have is destroyed by an even greater weakness for the doctrine they choose to employ.
again, I am depressed by the shortsightedness of the development team here, for a group that was formed on the basis of their pvp and ship fitting experience they are doing a terrible job at actually applying any of it, or listening to the feedback their players are giving them. (yes i repeat this alot, but i'm getting kinda desperate for this part to get heard, the more i see these guys doing the wrong thing the greater my determination to set them right again becomes.)
I cannot agree more with Wedgetail.
I have no use for a MJD. I will not fit one over options of other modules (navigation or not). I will not use a web. How can I track (which this expansion/change wants me to make more use of my primary weapon system?) anything but a battleship sufficiently when it is in web range?
If focus is meant to be placed on primary weapon system, make it appealing to all types of high slot fittings (close range/long range and each weapon type), and make sure someone with elite fitting skills can still fit big guns (ex: 4 arty....without having to have a module or implant to boost power output). If you want me to sacrifice some drone damage output, please make up for it by giving some form of damage boost to the primary weapon system.
As far as Bastion Mode: Who wants to be a stationary target?! The bonus to shield/armor repair does/doesn't outweigh the damage increase caused by being STATIONARY and the INCREASE in mass?!?
I admire trying something new to add to the game. This comes with great risk. Feedback now tends to have minimal impact. YOUR EXPANSION IS <2 MONTHS AWAY. You are not going to overhaul an ENTIRE feature/change, (gimmick?) even if you now realize it is a horrible idea. Your pride, hard work, time you put into this, AND your coming deadline will make changes to these proposals more or less tweaks.
Good luck mates. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 17:49:00 -
[4327] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:
I admire trying something new to add to the game. This comes with great risk. Feedback now tends to have minimal impact. YOUR EXPANSION IS <2 MONTHS AWAY. You are not going to overhaul an ENTIRE feature/change, (gimmick?) even if you now realize it is a horrible idea. Your pride, hard work, time you put into this, AND your coming deadline will make changes to these proposals more or less tweaks.
Good luck mates.
the solution is quite simple:
if it is not good enough, if it does not work, if it doesn't look to solve the problem - don't do it, don't use it, don't even think about deploying it until you've got another solution that fixes the problem - put the change aside, put it off for another 6 months, go back and rethink the entire system - do not break things that can conceivably work as they are just because you can't come up with something better.
we will tolerate waiting for things to change, we do not tolerate poorly thought and seemingly intentional 'failures'. |

STush T
Capital Sin
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 18:38:00 -
[4328] - Quote
Granted I have never ran anything other then missions, but to me it seems very clear that due to the short range on webs, they more often then not are a wasted mid slot. Even flying with pulses and a mwd it isnt used very much as most frigates get popped before their orbit range, and the ones that do get to orbit, its a waste to shift your dps to them when light drones can mop up the small threat.
This new setup is very much favoring the idea of jump far away, and snipe, making the web bonus even more ridicules because now you have that much more time to lock and pop the frigates. So you have a web fitted, taking up a mid slot that could be used for another tracking computer, and you only end up using once or twice in 10 missions because you stopped paying attention.
Maybe one day missions will be more like PvP, but your still dealing with if the opponent is close enough to use your web, you've made a huge mistake. Further more, a snipe fit doesnt need to tank as much since they are out of range, so why give us a ship that jumps way away, sits down and turns into a turtle? No increase in dps, just sitting out there, peering out from under a shell, pew pewing at the ships that are to far away to do anything anyway (pve). Unless i suppose if you were suicidal with your isk heavy ship and the tactic was to mjd INTO the opposing fleet, turtle up in the midst of them, and just keep shooting until your ship goes pop. I suppose in that situation the web might be useful, and the range might give pulses enough reach to get the whole fleet. Course for a minute your stuck, so it would be suicidal. How about a boost to buffer then? A boost big enough that it might make this tactic viable. Course there still isnt a dps increase so how much damage can one ship do in a pvp situation? Pve that tactic might work, but a mwd would work better then a mjd.
I guess if we could get a dev to tell us how exactly they think this ship should work. . .maybe they dont intend for us to use all the bonuses at once. Maybe we should just view the new changes as options, and not a set way to fly. So for me, i would ignore the MJD, ignore the web bonus, and just use the bastion mode because now i cant tank without it. Awesome.
And I agree with Wedgetail's solution, dont give us a joke just because you've come this far with it. Dont give us a funky tool with no purpose, and hope that we can find something to do with it.
Im sure in the end, something will be hashed out, I have confidence in CCP's ability to recognize they've made a mistake sooner or later, so IF marauders are screwed up, sooner or later they will be fixed. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
490
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 18:44:00 -
[4329] - Quote
Vorseger wrote: As far as Bastion Mode: Who wants to be a stationary target?! The bonus to shield/armor repair does/doesn't outweigh the damage increase caused by being STATIONARY and the INCREASE in mass?!?
In a way, you're right and you're wrong.
The way Most players use Marauders in PVE, is a a stationary weapons platforms. Mobility actually hurts all but the Golem due to tracking issues, and doesn't provide any type of bonus, as your sig is so large that you still take hard hits that don't get mitigated by mobility.
Now, in pvp mobility is a good thing, but again, the marauders suffer here as well.
Bastion is doing nothing but supporting this stationary platform use, but doing so at the cost of any mobility they did have.
This is why I continue to say.
1) leave the base hull as it is on live, but with smaller sig, and better sensor strength and scan res.
2) Give resist bonus back to bastion.
This literally allows 4 different options. Snip with mobility Brawl with mobility Snip with bastion Brawl with bastion
Each of these possible combos has its own niche situations, but also allows the ship to either solo or fleet relatively well. They wouldn't be the best pvp ships in either form, but would perform quite well in all forms of pve, which is their primary focus, and should remain so. |

michaelthered
HexEstrella
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 18:51:00 -
[4330] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:[quote=Ristlin Wakefield].
Yeah, but this is working as designed, because the null sec cartels hate incursions, and anything they can do to wreck income in them, they will.
exactly^^^ |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
490
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 18:52:00 -
[4331] - Quote
STush T wrote: Further more, a snipe fit doesnt need to tank as much since they are out of range, so why give us a ship that jumps way away, sits down and turns into a turtle? No increase in dps, just sitting out there, peering out from under a shell, pew pewing at the ships that are to far away to do anything anyway (pve).
Well, I can't say i agree that it doesn't make sense. This forms yet another niche role that the marauder can fill..
That is, that they could be the counter sniper to tier 3 bc's.
Due to the mobility and range of tier 3 bc's, there isn't a lot you can do against them because by the time you can get a brawler/frig in there to lock them down, they've already moved on. However, with a heavy tanked sniper boat, you could actually put pressure on them, or even destroy them. And they funny thing is that the counter to these counter snipers are the very ships (brawler/frigs) that continue to have problems reaching these teir 3 bcs. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 19:01:00 -
[4332] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:THANK YOU for the proposal for T2 resists. There is one bit of of information that could use some feedback to benefit the team changing marauders: "Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. " This states that I NEED cargo for POSSIBLE salvaging. I would like to know how many players that currently make significant use of this ship actually use the salvager and tractor beams instead of a Notics. Also, how many players would even consider using them when new deployable structures come about? Maybe new technology such as the Notics and deployable structures are making this role bonus antiquated. I cannot agree more with Wedgetail. I have no use for a MJD. I will not fit one over options of other modules (navigation or not). I will not use a web. How can I track (which this expansion/change wants me to make more use of my primary weapon system?) anything but a battleship sufficiently when it is in web range? If focus is meant to be placed on primary weapon system, make it appealing to all types of high slot fittings (close range/long range and each weapon type), and make sure someone with elite fitting skills can still fit big guns (ex: 4 arty....without having to have a module or implant to boost power output). If you want me to sacrifice some drone damage output, please make up for it by giving some form of damage boost to the primary weapon system. As far as Bastion Mode: Who wants to be a stationary target?! The bonus to shield/armor repair does/doesn't outweigh the damage increase caused by being STATIONARY and the INCREASE in mass?!? I admire trying something new to add to the game. This comes with great risk. Feedback now tends to have minimal impact. YOUR EXPANSION IS <2 MONTHS AWAY. You are not going to overhaul an ENTIRE feature/change, (gimmick?) even if you now realize it is a horrible idea. Your pride, hard work, time you put into this, AND your coming deadline will make changes to these proposals more or less tweaks. Good luck mates.
You both seem to be looking at this from a fleet doctrine view. It seems very clear these ships are not meant to be used in fleets and I really don't know why anyone would since they're so expensive for little dps benefit over t1 (and dps is the only thing that really matters in a fleet). However, the MJD is Very useful in PvE, especially since, with the PG buffs, its a lot easier to fit long range weapons, and many PvEers will be perfectly happy and able to sit still at 100km with double tank and more range for only a minute. Especially since the MJD means that if some scram rats get under its guns It can just MJD away when the rest of the minute is up. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 19:33:00 -
[4333] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:
You both seem to be looking at this from a fleet doctrine view. It seems very clear these ships are not meant to be used in fleets and I really don't know why anyone would since they're so expensive for little dps benefit over t1 (and dps is the only thing that really matters in a fleet). However, the MJD is Very useful in PvE, especially since, with the PG buffs, its a lot easier to fit long range weapons, and many PvEers will be perfectly happy and able to sit still at 100km with double tank and more range for only a minute. Especially since the MJD means that if some scram rats get under its guns It can just MJD away when the rest of the minute is up.
every ship used by a player in space in eve revolves around a fitting doctrine, the fitting can be focused on fleet or solo combat, or a specific fighting style.
all fleet doctrine fittings that exist have a solo equivalent.
all solo fitting doctrines have a fleet equivalent.
all PVE fitting doctrines have a PVP equivalent.
all PVP doctrines have a PVE equivalent.
"i can take a ship fit for one environment and use it just as effectively in another given the right circumstances, just as much as i can use a PVE fit battleship to kill rats i can kill a player with one, just as much as i can kill players with a PVP fit i can kill rats, it's only ever a question of the tactics i have to use in order to make it happen."
the focus is on the fitting styles at the most fundamental level, the posts do not reflect the environment, only the style and focus of ship fittings you put onto them. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 19:34:00 -
[4334] - Quote
-mis clicked, bad post- XD |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 20:24:00 -
[4335] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:You both seem to be looking at this from a fleet doctrine view. It seems very clear these ships are not meant to be used in fleets and I really don't know why anyone would since they're so expensive for little dps benefit over t1 (and dps is the only thing that really matters in a fleet). However, the MJD is Very useful in PvE, especially since, with the PG buffs, its a lot easier to fit long range weapons, and many PvEers will be perfectly happy and able to sit still at 100km with double tank and more range for only a minute. Especially since the MJD means that if some scram rats get under its guns It can just MJD away when the rest of the minute is up. You are correct in that the MJD works for that very specific form of gameplay. However, it does so at the expense of all others. Although this follows the T2 specialization theme some what, again the problem is that there are no other T2 options available currently besides Blops.
You are taking a hull that is already in place and used by a group of pilots in many different ways and relegating it to a single usage scenario. That is bound to **** a good portion of those pilots off especially given the ISK and SP investment getting into one of these bad boys in the first place. Direct combat brawling or shoot as you go playstyles would no longer have a T2 representation at the Battleship level.
I personally don't really enjoy the sit at 100K style of play though I employ it at times depending on the mission specifics. It's about player choice and providing options. As I've said before, I would be perfectly happy to allow Marauders to become the kings of the battleship sniper role, as long as there are equivalent options available for the other playstyles as well. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 20:35:00 -
[4336] - Quote
Question: Do people really believe that alliances are going to field whole fleets (50 plus) of billion ISK ships? If they do believe this, then why have we not seen it done before?
Personally I think this concept is a none-starter.
Quick edit: The webbing bonus is a skirmishing tool only. These ships will never be used for skirmishing. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 20:51:00 -
[4337] - Quote
There are two viable options available to rectify the confused nature of the current iteration that myself and many others have been proposing since this thread started:
Pseudo T3
- Transition hull and role bonuses to be more commonly usable regardless of playstyle
- Provide specialization through the use of scripting of the bastion module or a set of unique bastion module flavors
This approach has many benefits. The base hull remains usable in most aspects of EVE while still working towards the general goals of T2 specialization. The drawback of this approach is that it is a little too similar to the T3 concept of using subsystems to designate roles.
Separate roles into additional hulls or classes
- Move Marauders into sniper role
- Create brawling T2 BS hull class
- Abandon bastion module or significantly modify its bonuses
This approach would produce the most normalized T2 Battleship experience based on other T2 ship lines. It would also not be possible to do for the winter expansion.
To be honest, I'd be happy with the results of either approach as it would provide the necessary set of options to pilots wishing to employ their preferred playstyles. That said, I believe only the first option would be remotely possible to implement for the winter release.
I provided a very detailed post outlining one possible incarnation of the first option many pages back that attempted to satisfy most of the requests or comments presented in this thread. Many others have provided similar or different but just as acceptable solutions to the current situation. I'm pretty pleased with the level and quality of feedback we, as a community, have proved the dev team. If they only half listen to that feedback, we'll see the Marauder class shine. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Zazz Dimaloun
League Of Misfits
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 22:44:00 -
[4338] - Quote
Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change?? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
493
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 23:10:00 -
[4339] - Quote
Zazz Dimaloun wrote:Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change??
Nope, there are some ungodly amount of pages on this thread where at least one person says the same thing, if not the entire page... |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 23:25:00 -
[4340] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Zazz Dimaloun wrote:Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change?? Nope, there are some ungodly amount of pages on this thread where at least one person says the same thing, if not the entire page...
What if the web velocity bonus was instead a web range bonus, the purpose of which was to stop the enemy from getting to you before you mjd away? Would that make better sense? I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
493
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 23:34:00 -
[4341] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Zazz Dimaloun wrote:Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change?? Nope, there are some ungodly amount of pages on this thread where at least one person says the same thing, if not the entire page... What if the web velocity bonus was instead a web range bonus, the purpose of which was to stop the enemy from getting to you before you mjd away? Would that make better sense?
Not really.. I mean, webs can be fairly useful in certain situations, but in the case of the Golem, it's just a bunch of crap we can't fit.
Look, We need at least 2 TPs to be considered effective against frigs. lets say 2 resists and a shield booster. Then a cap booster. Then some kind of propulsion module.
That is 7... We only have 7 slots... Where the hell are we going to put that web? Hell, even if they gave us an 8th mid (which i strongly advise they do), we still probably wouldn't use it for a web.
No one in their right mind would be caught at close range in a Marauder while flying solo PVP. So, we don't need webs or scrams in pvp. The intent with bastion was to make marauders snipers, but even if that weren't the case, a TP is going to help us more than a web in PVE, specifically because a web won't make our missiles hit any harder... Sure, it's more likely that the exp vel will catch them better, but i'd rather just shoot them on the approach or kill them with drones.
Alternately, I also like using a smart bomb for close range frigs if possible.(shhh)
If a BS or cruiser gets withing web range it really wouldn't make much of a difference in pve, and in PVP you're screwed unless you have a fleet.
All that said, I would still rather have 8 mids over 8 highs any day in both pvp and pve |

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
281
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 04:15:00 -
[4342] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Question: Do people really believe that alliances are going to field whole fleets (50 plus) of billion ISK ships? If they do believe this, then why have we not seen it done before?
What, enver heard of Hot Dropping? Nullsec is full of **** where you have fifty billion isk ships suddenly appear and pwn your ass.
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
256
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 04:19:00 -
[4343] - Quote
ok marauder are fixed now lets get going, next step rebalancing of mining frigs they are clearly broken now. |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 05:14:00 -
[4344] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:You are correct in that the MJD works for that very specific form of gameplay. However, it does so at the expense of all others. Although this follows the T2 specialization theme some what, again the problem is that there are no other T2 options available currently besides Blops.
You are taking a hull that is already in place and used by a group of pilots in many different ways and relegating it to a single usage scenario. That is bound to **** a good portion of those pilots off especially given the ISK and SP investment getting into one of these bad boys in the first place. Direct combat brawling or shoot as you go playstyles would no longer have a T2 representation at the Battleship level.
I personally don't really enjoy the sit at 100K style of play though I employ it at times depending on the mission specifics. It's about player choice and providing options. As I've said before, I would be perfectly happy to allow Marauders to become the kings of the battleship sniper role, as long as there are equivalent options available for the other playstyles as well.
^^ This. I am one of the pilots that invested the ISK and SP to get into one. The changes forcing lack of options of playstyle would force me to go for a faction battleship and be rid of my marauder.
There are 3 Minmatar battleships. Two out of the three have some form of T2 variant. If the same for the other four races, is it Eve Developers intent to make a third T2 battleship that is focused on combat brawling and/or shoot as you go?
As Iome Ambraelle stated, in the battleship class, the current T2 ships give very limited options for flying/playing styles.
Why do T2 battleships have to be so much different from how T2 cruisers and T2 frigates vary from their respective T1 hulls? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8101
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 06:11:00 -
[4345] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Zazz Dimaloun wrote:Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change?? Nope, there are some ungodly amount of pages on this thread where at least one person says the same thing, if not the entire page... What if the web velocity bonus was instead a web range bonus, the purpose of which was to stop the enemy from getting to you before you mjd away? Would that make better sense?
I wouldn't want webs even on a blaster kronos. The problem is that when deployed you cannot move which is a big problem for close range weapons like webs. If I want a mega hull with a web bonus I would fly the faster and harder to jam vindi.
It made a lot more sense to have the repping bonus. |

Thieving Monkey
Mastercard.
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 06:34:00 -
[4346] - Quote
Marauders need more EHP. This base HP reduction makes no sense. That should be reverted and Bastion mode should get a resistance increase or it'll be far too easy to dps through someone between repcycles while they're completely stationary. Also, doubling the rep amount on active ships with stupidly low HP results in frequent over-repping, such as the vagabond now suffers from when using deadspace+crystals+shieldlinks. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8101
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 06:40:00 -
[4347] - Quote
Thieving Monkey wrote:Marauders need more EHP. This base HP reduction makes no sense. That should be reverted and Bastion mode should get a resistance increase or it'll be far too easy to dps through someone between repcycles while they're completely stationary. Also, doubling the rep amount on active ships with stupidly low HP results in frequent over-repping, such as the vagabond now suffers from when using deadspace+crystals+shieldlinks.
It made sense with the first idea. A monster active tank but vulnerable to high alpha gangs. |

Edam Neadenil
Bax Corporation
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 07:48:00 -
[4348] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:
However, the MJD is Very useful in PvE, especially since, with the PG buffs, its a lot easier to fit long range weapons, and many PvEers will be perfectly happy and able to sit still at 100km with double tank and more range for only a minute. Especially since the MJD means that if some scram rats get under its guns It can just MJD away when the rest of the minute is up.
Minor point.
Hisec mission rats never actually scram only disrupt so in hisec PvE at least MJDs will always work.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
215
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 09:28:00 -
[4349] - Quote
BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)
The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:
Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L
Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.
Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?
Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.
With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8101
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 09:51:00 -
[4350] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)
The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:
Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L
Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.
Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?
Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.
With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%.
Problem here is the kronos is now another flavour of the vindi.
|
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 10:07:00 -
[4351] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)
The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:
Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L
Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.
Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?
Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.
With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%. Yeah I agree and already posted an ol idea awhile back (192ish?) and was told it was mentioned before. IMHO if you are made stationary a dmg bonus is a must, and getting from ol is somewhat mild b/c it doesn't actually increase the burst dps the hulls are already capable of, just the sustained dps. I think it would be nice.
Concerning the slot layout, I would like the additional high for utility, but esp thinking of the vargur, the lost rep bonus, and the TE nerf, additional lows make sense. Armor tank +gyros in lows, TCs + prop + cap in mids, and it may even free up a rig spot due to stacking penalties. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
215
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 10:30:00 -
[4352] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Yeah I agree and already posted an ol idea awhile back (192ish?) and was told it was mentioned before. IMHO if you are made stationary a dmg bonus is a must, and getting from ol is somewhat mild b/c it doesn't actually increase the burst dps the hulls are already capable of, just the sustained dps. I think it would be nice.
Concerning the slot layout, I would like the additional high for utility, but esp thinking of the vargur, the lost rep bonus, and the TE nerf, additional lows make sense. Armor tank +gyros in lows, TCs + prop + cap in mids, and it may even free up a rig spot due to stacking penalties.
Ah, my bad (this thread is getting a tad long in the tooth...) I think the cooling aspect is a novel idea, and it pretty much resolves the issue of remaining a stationary object. The extra high slot isn't needed with the 'salvager' module that will make an appearance in Rubicon, since the Bastion module will simply replace the slot a tractor beam previously took up. Two utility slots is still plenty on this class. The extra medium and low slots at least allow for better setups considering how the specs are all less than the faction equivalents. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 10:58:00 -
[4353] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote: What if the web velocity bonus was instead a web range bonus, the purpose of which was to stop the enemy from getting to you before you mjd away? Would that make better sense?
Desert Ice78 wrote: Not really.. I mean, webs can be fairly useful in certain situations, but in the case of the Golem, it's just a bunch of crap we can't fit.
well if it was range web bonus like reckons it would more useful then TP mathematically but then we don't need that tp one
Arthur Aihaken wrote:BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders. 100% only gives u 30 km on true sanshas it very good for incursions and on turrets ships but but its not enough for golem
btw marauders have less slots then their t1 variants . WTF ? Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
216
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 11:12:00 -
[4354] - Quote
Only one thing is for certain: You're several hundred DPS, half the ISK and 6+ months of trained SP saved by sticking with the Navy equivalents. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 11:25:00 -
[4355] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Only one thing is for certain: You're several hundred DPS, half the ISK and 6+ months of trained SP saved by sticking with the Navy equivalents. indeed golem with 2x t2 rigors and domi TP and CNR with 2x t2 rigors and t2 flare (without tp) vs dramiel have difference about 20-30 dps. and versus crusers unless they moving 400+ m\s raven have same application (without tp). Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
216
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 11:28:00 -
[4356] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Only one thing is for certain: You're several hundred DPS, half the ISK and 6+ months of trained SP saved by sticking with the Navy equivalents. indeed golem with 2x t2 rigors and domi TP and CNR with 2x t2 rigors and t2 flare (without tp) vs dramiel have difference about 20-30 dps. and versus crusers unless they moving 400+ m\s raven have same application (without tp).
Don't forget the drone nerf (that's about 100 dps or so right there). And the shields, armor and structure are several thousand points more on the Navy versions. Plus the colors don't suck for the Raven. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Senshi Teichou
Free Space Organization
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 12:02:00 -
[4357] - Quote
the golem is the only marauder with only 8 effective weapons and it also gains the least from the bastion weapon bonuses.
cruise missiles dont need range and torpedos still have to less range to be useful.
give it missile sig. / explosion vel. bonuses instead.
also: why does every marauder get a web bonus? with only 10km range there is not much you can do with it.
i agree that marauders have to less slots (med/low)
with the recent buff to shield and armor reps lvl4s got ridiculously easy; so the whole bastion thing will not be that great in pve (dmg application and ewar resist are still nice though) |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 12:11:00 -
[4358] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)
The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:
Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L
Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.
Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?
Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.
With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%.
Why in the hell would I want 6 low slots on my Golem???? Give me 8 mids and you can do whatever you want with that extra low slot... All that matters is that 8th mid. |

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Tormented of Destiny The Kadeshi
144
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 13:05:00 -
[4359] - Quote
Senshi Teichou wrote:
also: why does every marauder get a web bonus? with only 10km range there is not much you can do with it.
i dont like the web bonus on every marauder either but when you think about overheated, gang-bonused faction webs... it gets interesting there, even in bastion. when you can use marauders for pvp, costs shouldnt be a big issue.
|

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:09:00 -
[4360] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: i dont like the web bonus on every marauder either but when you think about overheated, gang-bonused faction webs... it gets interesting there, even in bastion. when you can use marauders for pvp, costs shouldnt be a big issue.
25km true sanshas . for pvp is good enough for pve useless. i assume u know the reasons Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|
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NextDarkKnight
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:11:00 -
[4361] - Quote
Zazz Dimaloun wrote:Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change??
It's so the Golem can sling shot it's friends out of danger and sacrifice himself .. I started training for the marauders right before these proposed changes and 20 days from level 5.. Excuse me while I go change my skills to something else that isn't suppose to be a death trap.
Anyway Don't forget my suggestions
- Return the Drone Bay
- MWJ can pick jump range by deactivating early (Possible for ranged jump)
- Allow for bonus to utility drones [400% to Target Painting, Webbing]
- Allow to carry scramble drones
(Had to add a little )
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
218
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:12:00 -
[4362] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Why in the hell would I want 6 low slots on my Golem???? Give me 8 mids and you can do whatever you want with that extra low slot... All that matters is that 8th mid. Is that a serious question? Damage control, power diagnostic and 4x ballistic controls for starters... Or 2x 1600mm armor plates, a damage control and 3x ballistic controls if you wanted to armor tank it... Or 2x overdrives or nanofibers for the dismal speed... Or a any of the above with a signal amplifier. The list goes on. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:43:00 -
[4363] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Why in the hell would I want 6 low slots on my Golem???? Give me 8 mids and you can do whatever you want with that extra low slot... All that matters is that 8th mid. Is that a serious question? Damage control, power diagnostic and 4x ballistic controls for starters... Or 2x 1600mm armor plates, a damage control and 3x ballistic controls if you wanted to armor tank it... Or 2x overdrives or nanofibers for the dismal speed... Or a any of the above with a signal amplifier. The list goes on.
yeah.... nooo....
8 mids, 5 lows |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1261
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:52:00 -
[4364] - Quote
So from all the posts here (especially from the goons) it appears that the 2nd set of changes are permanent.
Thanks for listening CCP to over 200 pages of people mostly screaming about another ship class wrecked. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:58:00 -
[4365] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So from all the posts here (especially from the goons) it appears that the 2nd set of changes are permanent.
Thanks for listening CCP to over 200 pages of people mostly screaming about another ship class wrecked.
it's not entirely wrecked. It'll perform lvl 4's a bit better while in bastion, However, there's less niche situations that bastion could perform, and the hull itself is worthless without bastion.
I still say : Leave the hulls as they are on live with increase sensor strength. Remove the 8th high and apply it as a tank slot, since 4 utility highs is way too much in pvp.
Then, return the resist bonus back to bastion mode.
If the resists plus 100%, plus 37.5% is too much, then change the rep bonus of bastion to cover the difference of 100%, so 62.5%..
Another nice change would be that the 37.5% buff to base hull also effects incoming logistic reps/boosts. This would counter the possitive effects of t2 resists, but do so in a way that helps all 4 ships equally |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
218
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:57:00 -
[4366] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So from all the posts here (especially from the goons) it appears that the 2nd set of changes are permanent. Thanks for listening CCP to over 200 pages of people mostly screaming about another ship class wrecked. Hope for our heroes seems slim...
Joe Risalo wrote:it's not entirely wrecked. It'll perform lvl 4's a bit better while in bastion, However, there's less niche situations that bastion could perform, and the hull itself is worthless without bastion. Anything the Golem can do, my Navy Raven can do better... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 16:09:00 -
[4367] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:it's not entirely wrecked. It'll perform lvl 4's a bit better while in bastion, However, there's less niche situations that bastion could perform, and the hull itself is worthless without bastion. Anything the Golem can do, my Navy Raven can do better...
Well, I agree, and disagree at the same time.
Golem has more damage application with TP bonus... Golem can also tank more, but the sig radius kinda nullifies this a bit.
However, I'm hoping that bastion will correct the tanking capability.
Now, the RNI can output more dps, but less effectively. That said, it's expected that the RNI should have more dps than the Golem. I think it's actually supposed to be this way.
As far as missioning though, I always preferred the SNI, as it had 8 mids, allowing for more tank than a RNI, and still easily fit TPs to have more effective dps than RNI with less to no give on tanking and mobility.
The SNI is actually the subject I use to say that the Golem needs that 8th mid.. The SNI itself should get a bit of a change to make it focus on something else. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
219
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 16:46:00 -
[4368] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Well, I agree, and disagree at the same time.
Golem has more damage application with TP bonus... Golem can also tank more, but the sig radius kinda nullifies this a bit.
However, I'm hoping that bastion will correct the tanking capability.
Now, the RNI can output more dps, but less effectively. That said, it's expected that the RNI should have more dps than the Golem. I think it's actually supposed to be this way.
As far as missioning though, I always preferred the SNI, as it had 8 mids, allowing for more tank than a RNI, and still easily fit TPs to have more effective dps than RNI with less to no give on tanking and mobility.
The SNI is actually the subject I use to say that the Golem needs that 8th mid.. The SNI itself should get a bit of a change to make it focus on something else.
Well, the RNI has a +25% explosion radius vs. the Golem's +25% explosion velocity, and since I have three rigging slots on the RNI I can almost match the Golem's explosion velocity bonus with a T2 flare and still have a +25% explosion radius over the Golem with T2 rigors (which I'm not necessarily convinced the Golem can actually afford to run).
The RNI isn't exactly sluggish, either - so with a Deadspace afterburner you'll easily push 500 m/s (and it has the grid for a MWD if so desired). So that frees up another mid slot right there, and of course there's the extra low slot on the RNI as well which I can use to run a fourth ballistic control, drone damage amplifier (since I can still run three sentries on the RNI) or passive signal amplifier to extend targeting range and scan resolution.
I could also mention I've got twice the power grid, 35% more capacitor and at least 50% more in base shield, armor and structure on the RNI. So while the T2 resists are (and will) be nice, the Golem will need them since it's basically going to be a stationary weapons platform.
No argument that the SNI is a beast. However, in terms of damage it still falls short (6.25%) over the RNI. And it's not just the damage - it's the effective application, and the RNI wins hands down with the +25% explosion radius bonus. The SNI is also a lot slower (100-150m/s), which kind of negates the resist bonus it receives. It also lacks the velocity bonus which relegates it to utilizing cruise missiles to get decent range. The new Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher should be interesting on the SNI.
I'm not saying the Golem sucks, just that there are far cheaper and less skill-intensive options. (ok, maybe I am saying the Golem sucks...)  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Senshi Teichou
Free Space Organization
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 17:12:00 -
[4369] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'm not saying the Golem sucks, just that there are far cheaper and less skill-intensive options. (ok, maybe I am saying the Golem sucks...)  this
and while we are at it: i also dont like the fact that there is no real missile using pirate ship... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
220
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 17:54:00 -
[4370] - Quote
Senshi Teichou wrote:and while we are at it: i also dont like the fact that there is no real missile using pirate ship...
Yeah, but the Caldari do it so well... Apparently we're going to see a SoE battleship, but that will probably be lasers and drones. A Caldari-Minmatar hybrid battleship (pure missiles) would be an interesting beast, but since each of the pirate factions already has a battleship... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 18:17:00 -
[4371] - Quote
Senshi Teichou wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'm not saying the Golem sucks, just that there are far cheaper and less skill-intensive options. (ok, maybe I am saying the Golem sucks...)  this and while we are at it: i also dont like the fact that there is no real missile using pirate ship...
/agreed with the Golem sucking.... That's why I had traded my Golem for a Tengu back in the day. While the Tengu used more ammo, it also had more effective dps, same tank, smaller sig, higher mobility, and more utility.
After I heard about the HML nerfs last year though, I quickly sold the tengu and invested in a Nightmare. I love the Nightmare, However, I really REALLY want to be able to use a Golem effectively.
If they gave bastion the resist bonus it had in iteration 1, then using a damage control wouldn't be that important by any means. I mean, I don't use one on my shield boats anyway.... So, i'm fine with 4 lows on the Golem. However, with 2 target painters, 1 prop mod, 1 cap booster, that leaves 3 tanking mods. I prefer to use 4 slots for tank, and since the Golem basically needs 2 tps, and will be bonused for a prop mod, I think they should give us that 8th mid for the prop mod.
With the introduction of the tractor structure, there's no point in tractors on the Golem, thus we can knock it down to 7 highs to transfer that 8th mid...
I really want them to come back with iteration 1.
Leave the hull like it is on live, then add iteration 1 bastion,add a little sensor strength, drop 8th high and add 8th mid, and make bastion immune to cap war, and boom.. You have a ship with 4 different possibilities. Mobile brawler, mobile sniper, bastion brawler, and bastion sniper.
Leave the utility bonuses and higher damage to pirate ships, and give marauders better tank and application/range. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 18:20:00 -
[4372] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Senshi Teichou wrote:and while we are at it: i also dont like the fact that there is no real missile using pirate ship... Yeah, but the Caldari do it so well... Apparently we're going to see a SoE battleship, but that will probably be lasers and drones. A Caldari-Minmatar hybrid battleship (pure missiles) would be an interesting beast, but since each of the pirate factions already has a battleship...
No.. what is missing from the game would actually be a missile and armor hull.
Caldari and minmatar are both shield and both have missile focused ships.
Armor and missiles would seem to make a good torp fit... I just can't think of a good bonus for it... ECM? Perhaps just give it really good mobility, mwd bonus, and warp disruptor range and/or point bonus?
Edit...
give it good mobility with mwd cap usage bonus, then give it a range bonus to warp scrams. Seems like a good fit that would be designed to get to like 24km, warp scram to shut off mwd, and then pound... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
223
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 18:36:00 -
[4373] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:No.. what is missing from the game would actually be a missile and armor hull.
Caldari and minmatar are both shield and both have missile focused ships.
Armor and missiles would seem to make a good torp fit... I just can't think of a good bonus for it... ECM? Perhaps just give it really good mobility, mwd bonus, and warp disruptor range and/or point bonus?
Edit...
give it good mobility with mwd cap usage bonus, then give it a range bonus to warp scrams. Seems like a good fit that would be designed to get to like 24km, warp scram to shut off mwd, and then pound... Yes, but I believe all the other faction combinations have been done, have they not? You have Nightmare (Caldari-Amarr) and Rattlesnake (Caldari-Gallente). Why can't it be an armor hull though?
Special Ability: 25% bonus to Large Missile rate of fire Caldari Battleship Bonus: 5% bonus to Explosion Radius per level Minmatar Battleship Bonus: 5% bonus to Explosion Velocity per level
Give it 19 slots: 6 high (6 turrets), 5 medium and 8 low (3 rigs, 350 calibration) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Nemo deBlanc
Phoibe Enterprises
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:11:00 -
[4374] - Quote
Just commenting to add my voice to the others in this thread condemning the proposed changes; particularly those headed to the Golem.
There's a lot of different issues, but one of the most glaring is the web bonus. It just reeks of laziness since it's in direct competition with target painters and tank for slots and is seeminly only there because it's what you gave the others and you think it may have some sort of PvP value. All the bonuses to damage application seem unnecassary when torps are in their current useless state, but perhaps if you buffed torps like you did cruise I could see the Golem being useful. Until then it's just completely useless and massively outclassed by the Paladin/Vargur.
On the subject of PvP viability, what is your vision for these ships? In the current iteration they're far too squishy for fleet warfare, too expensive/immobile for low sec gang work (post insurance these are on the level of a capital loss if not worse), bad for WH work due to their large mass/sig radius and dread blapping, and just all around a worse PvP choice than a pirate battleship. I'm trying really hard to envision a scenario where I'd use one of these for PvP and I honestly can't think of a single one.
Somebody enlighten me please.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:18:00 -
[4375] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:Just commenting to add my voice to the others in this thread condemning the proposed changes; particularly those headed to the Golem.
There's a lot of different issues, but one of the most glaring is the web bonus. It just reeks of laziness since it's in direct competition with target painters and tank for slots and is seeminly only there because it's what you gave the others and you think it may have some sort of PvP value. All the bonuses to damage application seem unnecassary when torps are in their current useless state, but perhaps if you buffed torps like you did cruise I could see the Golem being useful. Until then it's just completely useless and massively outclassed by the Paladin/Vargur.
On the subject of PvP viability, what is your vision for these ships? In the current iteration they're far too squishy for fleet warfare, too expensive/immobile for low sec gang work (post insurance these are on the level of a capital loss if not worse), bad for WH work due to their large mass/sig radius and dread blapping, and just all around a worse PvP choice than a pirate battleship. I'm trying really hard to envision a scenario where I'd use one of these for PvP and I honestly can't think of a single one.
Somebody enlighten me please.
High sec POS bashing while bastioned at range is about the only effective pvp centric use they'll have with the current itteration. However, look up the comments a short way and see what you think about my proposal... Too lazy to link right now... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
223
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 20:26:00 -
[4376] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:High sec POS bashing while bastioned at range is about the only effective pvp centric use they'll have with the current itteration. Well, I guess that's the only redeeming quality of Bastion at this point. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 21:59:00 -
[4377] - Quote
I still think you need something of value to balance the bastion module against or else you either wind up with a poorly constructed hull that must have the bastion module fitted to be viable or you the hull is good and the bastion module is worthless in most situations because it would make the hull over powered. I think we're in the former situation with the current iteration because the hull by itself is less effective than it's T1, faction, and pirate equivalents. You have to fit a bastion module to even recover some of what was taken away from the TQ version of Marauders.
What I mean by value is that currently, the bastion module occupies a UTILITY high slot. Since the hull has 4 of these, you have to balance the bonuses provided by the bastion module against what ever you could fit in the 4th utility slot. The value algebra looks something like this currently:
hull bonuses - hull weaknesses + 4th utility slot capabilities ~= hull bonuses - hull weaknesses + bastion module bonuses - bastion module drawbacks
I think the developers realize that a 4th utility slot isn't worth that much in most situations so they added additional weaknesses to the hull and threw in several significant drawbacks to the bastion module. This pretty much requires the bastion module to be fit because it is trying to fix the inbuilt weaknesses of the hull.
Some pages back I suggested changing the balancing equation to be more equitable. The idea is to balance the power of the bastion module against a trade off of bonuses instead of negating inbuilt weaknesses. As part of that I suggested making the bastion module occupy a turret/launcher slot and adding a turret/launcher hard point with the new 8th high slot.
To make sure a 5 turret/launcher setup didn't simply eclipse the T1, faction, and pirate battleship lines I suggested lowering the role bonus from 100% weapon damage to 70% weapon damage. What you end up with is a ~9% increase in hull DPS potential over the current TQ Marauders (in line or below the pirate DPS potential) if you fit all 5 weapons. However, you now get to balance the power of the bastion module against 20% of the hulls maximum DPS potential; allowing the bastion module to be much more powerful than it is today. Here's what the new value equation looks like:
100% DPS potential ~= 80% DPS potential + bastion module bonuses - bastion module drawbacks
One example bastion module designed for sniper fits could ensure that at any extended range the pilot would be able to use ammunition 2 grades higher than they normally would. For example extending optimal and falloff so you could use multifrequency instead of Ultraviolet or Standard. This would pretty much recover the loss of the base 20% DPS. Then you would add additional bonuses that support the sniper role further. That would be a trade off worth having. If you're going to deploy in the sniper role, you would fit that bastion module as you would have equal effective DPS as a 5 turret/launcher fit but be better at the sniping role. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill Exiled Ones
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 21:59:00 -
[4378] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:Just commenting to add my voice to the others in this thread condemning the proposed changes; particularly those headed to the Golem.
There's a lot of different issues, but one of the most glaring is the web bonus. It just reeks of laziness since it's in direct competition with target painters and tank for slots and is seeminly only there because it's what you gave the others and you think it may have some sort of PvP value. All the bonuses to damage application seem unnecassary when torps are in their current useless state, but perhaps if you buffed torps like you did cruise I could see the Golem being useful. Until then it's just completely useless and massively outclassed by the Paladin/Vargur.
On the subject of PvP viability, what is your vision for these ships? In the current iteration they're far too squishy for fleet warfare, too expensive/immobile for low sec gang work (post insurance these are on the level of a capital loss if not worse), bad for WH work due to their large mass/sig radius and dread blapping, and just all around a worse PvP choice than a pirate battleship. I'm trying really hard to envision a scenario where I'd use one of these for PvP and I honestly can't think of a single one.
Somebody enlighten me please.
Exactly. It's not that their bad, it's just for anything they can do, some other ship can do better (and cheaper). From my PvE perspective only the ewar immunity is unique. And I just can see a scenario where I would use this ship in PvP.
As for hulls:
1) Kronos - probably only one ok (but a PvE blaster boat...) - it will be the only one viable in PvP. 2) Golem - TP/web bonus is just silly... 3) Paladin - needs resist altered and a 3rd useful bonus (instead web or capacitor - tracking is logical choice comparing to vargur and kronos). 4) Vargur - needs its resisted altered, web is kinda meh since its a shield ship.
Really do all those ships need web? Except Kronos maybe (outside bastion)? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:20:00 -
[4379] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:Just commenting to add my voice to the others in this thread condemning the proposed changes; particularly those headed to the Golem.
There's a lot of different issues, but one of the most glaring is the web bonus. It just reeks of laziness since it's in direct competition with target painters and tank for slots and is seeminly only there because it's what you gave the others and you think it may have some sort of PvP value. All the bonuses to damage application seem unnecassary when torps are in their current useless state, but perhaps if you buffed torps like you did cruise I could see the Golem being useful. Until then it's just completely useless and massively outclassed by the Paladin/Vargur.
On the subject of PvP viability, what is your vision for these ships? In the current iteration they're far too squishy for fleet warfare, too expensive/immobile for low sec gang work (post insurance these are on the level of a capital loss if not worse), bad for WH work due to their large mass/sig radius and dread blapping, and just all around a worse PvP choice than a pirate battleship. I'm trying really hard to envision a scenario where I'd use one of these for PvP and I honestly can't think of a single one.
Somebody enlighten me please.
Exactly. It's not that their bad, it's just for anything they can do, some other ship can do better (and cheaper). From my PvE perspective only the ewar immunity is unique. And I just can see a scenario where I would use this ship in PvP. As for hulls: 1) Kronos - probably only one ok (but a PvE blaster boat...) - it will be the only one viable in PvP. 2) Golem - TP/web bonus is just silly... 3) Paladin - needs resist altered and a 3rd useful bonus (instead web or capacitor - tracking is logical choice comparing to vargur and kronos). 4) Vargur - needs its resisted altered, web is kinda meh since its a shield ship. Really do all those ships need web? Except Kronos maybe (outside bastion)?
Ya know... reguardless of all the ideas thrown out......... I'm just annoyed right now... i would really like CCP to hop in and at least give us a general outline on what they're planning. They don't need to give us numbers, just a simple "hey, this is what we're thinking"
It would really help to calm my nerves.. I would very much like to be able to use a Golem to run missions... I've had one before and it kinda sucked, but that's beside my point.
I'm just annoyed cause it feels they're just trying to keep it hush hush so they can do what they want and not have another 200+ pages of player QQ....
That said, this is the one time that I feel CCP should stop listening to players and just do what they want. I mean, iteration 1 was a lot more functional than iteration two, but it was by no means perfect... Give us a new setup, and leave it at that until it's been tested. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:26:00 -
[4380] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I still think you need something of value to balance the bastion module against or else you either wind up with a poorly constructed hull that must have the bastion module fitted to be viable or you the hull is good and the bastion module is worthless in most situations because it would make the hull over powered. I think we're in the former situation with the current iteration because the hull by itself is less effective than it's T1, faction, and pirate equivalents. You have to fit a bastion module to even recover some of what was taken away from the TQ version of Marauders.
thinking another part of the problem also is ccp confusing a ship's role with its function within that role.
most t2 ships can perform several roles but have a specialty in performing one function within their role.
as an example: a heavy interdictor is a type of brawler with the specialized function of tackling EWAR immune ships
a curse is a skirmisher that focuses on the functions of energy warfare and tracking disruption.
a marauder now is a broad spectrum ship, it specialises in performing many roles and can do so due to its damage projection, repair bonus and utility high slots, but at the cost of poor targeting and lower fitting totals and lower EHP compared to the t1 counter parts.
making the marauders very dependent on spartan like teams to function in PVP, teams where each ship in some way bolsters weak points of the others. (revolving around the marauder core - seen in HUN's demonstration during the tourney last year)
what it really needs isn't so much a rebalance as a reinforcement - it already does something well it just needs to be brought in line in such a way that it surpasses t1 hulls.
you could almost fix the marauders simply by giving them the same kind of base HP as the t1 battleship counterparts, and reducing the ECM weakness slightly.
if you do this they're better at brawling than t1 hulls due to cap warfare, could run remote repair doctrines, or could snipe
their lower speed still excludes them from most kite or skirmish warfare but the damage projection means they can pose a challenge to those too.
they still would not beat any one ship in terms of raw damage or cost effectiveness - but they would provide something that the typhoon used to, and that is a ship that can pull pandora's box on you if it needed to - by being able to swap quickly between different styles based on situation.
the only reason i suggest this kind of specialization (in being versatile team dependent hulls) is because of the prior point of having so few battleship hulls on the t2 level that can bridge into specific doctrines, the marauders and blops aren't like frigs and cruisers that quite literally have one hull capable of performing 2 or more roles per and a specific function inside that role,
they have two ships between 5 roles, the blops gets the specialized function of the jump drive (mobility) and between the races has specific functions within most doctrines, because they can move so well blops oppose marauders by being far more independent hulls - they can dictate the terms of a fight that the marauders cannot.
panthers kite, redeemers tank, widows have ECM and the SIn is just useless and forever will be ;)
- the marauders get a mix of different tactics that depend on working with other ships to fully utilize, which is great but for it to be worth doing it needs to be easier to support these ships in combat, they lack mobility and so need staying power.
for now, just buff their ehp and sensors, then after you've added more t2 battleships you can set to work on giving them function specializations that match those seen in cruiser sized hulls - stop trying to balance these ships using the same rule set the cruisers used - they aren't cruisers and their circumstances are very very different. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:40:00 -
[4381] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:thinking another part of the problem also is ccp confusing a ship's role with its function within that role.
most t2 ships can perform several roles but have a specialty in performing one function within their role.
as an example: a heavy interdictor is a type of brawler with the specialized function of tackling EWAR immune ships
a curse is a skirmisher that focuses on the functions of energy warfare and tracking disruption.
a marauder now is a broad spectrum ship, it specialises in performing many roles and can do so due to its damage projection and utility high slots, but at the cost of poor targeting and lower fitting and EHP.
what it really needs isn't so much a rebalance as a reinforcement - it already does something well it just needs to be brought in line in such a way that it surpasses t1 hulls.
you could almost fix the marauders simply by giving them the same kind of base HP as the t1 battleship counterparts, and reducing the ECM weakness slightly.
if you do this they're better at brawling than t1 hulls due to cap warfare, could run remote repair doctrines, or could snipe
their lower speed still excludes them from most kite or skirmish warfare but the damage projection means they can pose a challenge to those too.
they still would not beat any one ship in terms of raw damage or cost effectiveness - but they would provide something that the typhoon used to, and that is a ship that can pull pandora's box on you if it needed to - by being able to swap quickly between different styles based on situation.
the only reason i suggest this kind of specialization (in being versatile team dependent hulls) is because of the prior point of having so few battleship hulls on the t2 level that can bridge into specific doctrines, the marauders and blops aren't like frigs and cruisers that quite literally have one hull capable of performing 2 or more roles per and a specific function inside that role,
they have two ships between 5 roles, the blops gets the specialized function of the jump drive (mobility) and between the races has specific functions within most doctrines
panthers kite, redeemers tank, widows have ECM and the SIn is just useless and forever will be ;)
- the marauders get a mix of different tactics that depend on working with other ships to fully utilize, which is great but for it to be worth doing it needs to be easier to support these ships in combat, they lack mobility and so need staying power.
for now, just buff their ehp and sensors, then after you've added more t2 battleships you can set to work on giving them function specializations that match those seen in cruiser sized hulls - stop trying to balance these ships using the same rule set the cruisers used - they aren't cruisers and their circumstances are very very different. I agree with you there. The best approach would be to expand the line of T2 battleships to provide a framework for roles and usage scenarios. The problem with that is it's not going to happen for the winter expansion and they seem set on making much larger scale changes to the Marauder class. A sensor and EHP boost while leaving the hull alone would be acceptable to me, but there would still be some issues with the underpowered racial hulls within the class. The Golem is pretty much strictly worse than the Navy hulls. The RNI and SNI separate nicely into the gank-or-die and flying-brick roles respectively and are very effective hulls with coherent bonuses and capabilities. I prefer the SNI for missions personally as I tend to pop triggers at inappropriate times Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
226
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:43:00 -
[4382] - Quote
To summarize: T2 resists +1 ... Animation +1 ... MJD +1 Revised stats -¦0 Slot layout -1 ... Bastion functionality -2 ... Loss of role bonuses -2 Marauder bonuses -5 .....
Slot layout: Swap the high out for a mid, and give all an extra low. Roll bonus: 100% damage, 70% MJD reactivation, 37.5% shield boost/armor repair Marauder bonus: Paladin: 5% large energy damage, 7.5% tracking speed Golem: 5% missile damage, 5% explosion radius Kronos: 5% hybrid damage, 7.5% tracking speed Vargur: 5% projectile damage, 7.5% tracking speed
Bastion: Something cool. How about a 10% rate of fire per Marauder level? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jaz Antollare
Deadly Loneliness
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:45:00 -
[4383] - Quote
1)Im for 200% to tractors, cuz its kinda cooler 2)More sensor strength, srsly about 13 points, wtf is that for a battle ship?! A ****** t1 BS has about 20 points, its just illogical and unrealistic. 3) Give those damn boats a 5th weapon slot, cuz you know, its cool and its an t2 Battleship!! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
226
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:47:00 -
[4384] - Quote
You know, I could live with the 2nd iteration Golem if they just changed the damned color... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:48:00 -
[4385] - Quote
Eh I've slowly warmed up to the whole idea...
Really, for me, living in a Golem, all I really ask for now, is to swap out that useless web bonus for something more useful, like some sort of damage bonus, I don't care if its 5% kinetic damage per level, just something.
Other than that, I'll take what we got on the platter now and make use of it. Just because it gets a MJD bonus, doesn't mean I gotta use it. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 22:58:00 -
[4386] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote: The Golem is pretty much strictly worse than the Navy hulls. The RNI and SNI separate nicely into the gank-or-die and flying-brick roles respectively and are very effective hulls with coherent bonuses and capabilities. I prefer the SNI for missions personally as I tend to pop triggers at inappropriate times
the golem is difficult, as the primary difference the marauders have over the t1 hulls is sheer damage application - they are quite literally nothing but pure guns with a bit of resilience through repair amount, the golem doesn't track the same way the other three do and so it loses out a bit on this front.
the kind of difference between say the machariel fleet pest and vargur is that
the fleet pest gets good damage at close ish range and good energy warfare
the machariel gets the same range as the vargur but much worse tracking and utility (vargur can hit MWD frigs at 12 km with a few scripted tracking comps :3 )
the fleet phoon's more in line with the panther than the vargur so the two don't really compete much,
the vargur can make use of most of these same situations, and then add a little bit more - excepting energy warfare due to power grid issues, and the use of 1400's for the same reason.
the remaining two don't have the same PG issue, such that in a straight up fight a kronos would almost always out last a vindicator or navy meg just on heavy nuets and cargo space, and a paladin would sit around laughing at a Napoc or nightmare - though the nightmare puts up the best fight of all of them short of perhaps a bhaalghorn.
(the lower ehp is what hurts them most in this kind of contest - so to afford them the extra defense means to afford them a place above the competitors)
the golem tries to do the same as those three, but loses out to the weapon system a bit too much - torpedoes in particular need better range and application in order to work as well with energy warfare doctrines the others can use. (ever seen an SNI try to tank without capacitor? i mean they can but it's not nice to look at)
i'm probably overlooking something, as this is a quick 5 minute analysis of what most of these hulls compete with, but it's the general view of it. |

Sean Apollo
The Nomads Holding Nomads.
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:57:00 -
[4387] - Quote
It looks very interesting. But Me personally I have always wanted to see Marauders buffed or Faction BS's nerfed as I don't think that there should be the question of "Is a Faction BS better than a marauder?"
Everyone has a different opinion about it and I don't think it should be that way. The Marauders take a lot longer to train for than a Faction BS. I think there needs to be just a general bonus to make marauders worth going for and make it just plain out better than a Faction BS.
How much better? I can not say. But just how close the two are in dps/tank seems a little silly to me as one is a t2 variant and the other faction.
The new Bastion module is not what i wanted to see done to the Marauders. I don't think changing its purpose is a good idea either.
As far as pvp and the new Bastion module I don't see really any scenario of that working well or better than just giving the Marauders better tank to work with. |

Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
The Three Musketeers
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 02:21:00 -
[4388] - Quote
I wasn't going to comment, but you developers need to remember that some of us make long term plans, and when you change the rules, change the ships, or change anything, and do not take into account the inconvenience, the destruction of planned strategies, and the literal jeopardizing of in game earning potential, it's like you are cutting down the rainforest. There will be consequences. There is a reason why people train certain skills. When you change things you can affect the value of their toons and their skill sets, wiping out or enhancing potentially years of time spent playing Eve. I'd recommend you avoid bulldozing the old neighborhood just because some special interest developers with money and power want to remake Eve, dropping in a bunch of changes without any storyline, plot, or political events in the game to go along with them. There just might be some old guy in that neighborhood with an antique shop whose life you will be destroying.
...Oh wait. Never mind. Independent thinking is not encouraged in a professional Army. It is a form of mutiny. Obedience is the supreme virtueBritish Prime Minister Lloyd George, in his 'War Memoirs'-á |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 02:47:00 -
[4389] - Quote
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar wrote:I wasn't going to comment, but you developers need to remember that some of us make long term plans, and when you change the rules, change the ships, or change anything, and do not take into account the inconvenience, the destruction of planned strategies, and the literal jeopardizing of in game earning potential, it's like you are cutting down the rainforest. There will be consequences. There is a reason why people train certain skills. When you change things you can affect the value of their toons and their skill sets, wiping out or enhancing potentially years of time spent playing Eve. I'd recommend you avoid bulldozing the old neighborhood just because some special interest developers with money and power want to remake Eve, dropping in a bunch of changes without any storyline, plot, or political events in the game to go along with them. There just might be some old guy in that neighborhood with an antique shop whose life you will be destroying.  ...Oh wait. Never mind.
/agreed.
however, Marauders are pretty bad considering they're the be all, end all, of sub-capital pve.
Like I've said before, I used to fly a Golem.
Traded it for a tengu
every ship I have flown in lvl 4 missions has outperformed the Golem. Raven, rattlesnake, tengu, RNI, SNI, nightmare, and yes, even a drake outperformed in many situations.
The massive sig and lack of sensor strength literally was a henderance on this ship.
i haven't used one since before the missile changes last year, and I'm sure they're pretty effective with cruise missiles now, cause when the only good way to fly it used to be with torps, it sucked.. You got hammered by npcs.. |

Antonio Steele
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:18:00 -
[4390] - Quote
One thing they really need to fix is that they are putting web bonuses on what they want to be long range fighting ships. Maybe you could justify webs on the kronos because of blasters (only maybe), but otherwise a web bonus is stupid. They should replace it with something worthwhile. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
228
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:24:00 -
[4391] - Quote
Antonio Steele wrote:One thing they really need to fix is that they are putting web bonuses on what they want to be long range fighting ships. Maybe you could justify webs on the kronos because of blasters (only maybe), but otherwise a web bonus is stupid. They should replace it with something worthwhile. I think they should replace it with a salvage bonus.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:32:00 -
[4392] - Quote
Antonio Steele wrote:One thing they really need to fix is that they are putting web bonuses on what they want to be long range fighting ships. Maybe you could justify webs on the kronos because of blasters (only maybe), but otherwise a web bonus is stupid. They should replace it with something worthwhile.
I think the web bonus was actually applied as a means of funtionality for these ships outside of bastion, and wasn't intended as a co-bonus to bastion.
However, it doesn't come across that way because the hulls still suck outside of bastion, and CCP's attempt to make them better outside of bastion with iteration 2, only lead to make bastion weak without actually helping the hulls outside of bastion very much at all, if not making them worse outside of bastion as well.
I feel it's actually fairly simple.
1) revert hull nerfs 2) buff sensor strength 3) return per level rep bonus, and have it apply to logistics as well 4) bring back resist bonus of bastion 5) remove 8th high slot and give each ship another tank slot 6) reduce sig radius 7) make bastion immune to cap war 8) convert tractor bonus to salvage bonus 9) allow them to focus on the new tractor structure 10) buff scan res
optionals
11) bonus to MJD range and allow range selection 12) make bastion instantly "anchor" the ship in place. This means it can't be bumped, and it can't jump gate/whs. 12 keeps them from having to increase mass and having a lockout timer to try and avoid these issues.
This means the Marauder is still functional in and out of fleet without bastion, and is very strong solo with bastion... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
230
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 03:38:00 -
[4393] - Quote
13. Update this thread already... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Adocsalo Bt.
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 05:14:00 -
[4394] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=Antonio Steele] ... 11) bonus to MJD range and allow range selection ...
^This and I will drop the MWD. |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 07:12:00 -
[4395] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Antonio Steele wrote:One thing they really need to fix is that they are putting web bonuses on what they want to be long range fighting ships. Maybe you could justify webs on the kronos because of blasters (only maybe), but otherwise a web bonus is stupid. They should replace it with something worthwhile. I think the web bonus was actually applied as a means of funtionality for these ships outside of bastion, and wasn't intended as a co-bonus to bastion. However, it doesn't come across that way because the hulls still suck outside of bastion, and CCP's attempt to make them better outside of bastion with iteration 2, only lead to make bastion weak without actually helping the hulls outside of bastion very much at all, if not making them worse outside of bastion as well. I feel it's actually fairly simple. 1) revert hull nerfs 2) buff sensor strength 3) return per level rep bonus, and have it apply to logistics as well 4) bring back resist bonus of bastion 5) remove 8th high slot and give each ship another tank slot 6) reduce sig radius 7) make bastion immune to cap war 8) convert tractor bonus to salvage bonus 9) allow them to focus on the new tractor structure 10) buff scan res optionals 11) bonus to MJD range and allow range selection 12) make bastion instantly "anchor" the ship in place. This means it can't be bumped, and it can't jump gate/whs. 12 keeps them from having to increase mass and having a lockout timer to try and avoid these issues. This means the Marauder is still functional in and out of fleet without bastion, and is very strong solo with bastion...
Now, this is the best marauder rebalance idea I have seen in this entire 200+ page thread! CCP DO THIS! |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 07:13:00 -
[4396] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: I feel it's actually fairly simple.
1) revert hull nerfs
--- ? Which important hull nerfs are there? Did I miss anything?
Joe Risalo wrote: 3) return per level rep bonus, and have it apply to logistics as well
--- T2 resists are jsut better compared to that.
Joe Risalo wrote: 5) remove 8th high slot and give each ship another tank slot
--- Their tank is already beyond the 3k mark. Way beyond that mark.
Joe Risalo wrote: 7) make bastion immune to cap war
--- If they did this, the Paladin would become a mini-archon --- and completely immune to cap warfare, meaning it'd be (linked + drugged) hanging somewhere around the 5k local rep, and could run either local tank or 6 of 7 remote armor repairers cap stable. It would indicate that you'd need to have built a dread already in your c2/c3 to take that one down - together with the fleet it is supporting.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

marVLs
427
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 07:27:00 -
[4397] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: --- ? Which important hull nerfs are there? Did I miss anything?
Then go and read first page...
Lloyd Roses wrote: --- T2 resists are jsut better compared to that.
At least for PVE they're not |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1435
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 07:28:00 -
[4398] - Quote
Obligatory "If-you-don't-think-the-proposed-changes-are-vastly-overpowered-and-will-****-over-the-current-pvp-meta-you-are-bad-at-this-game" post. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 09:02:00 -
[4399] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:--- ? Which important hull nerfs are there? Did I miss anything? velocity, agility, align time, capacitor, shield, armor, hull... Basically anything they could nerf to make bastion forced.
Quote:--- T2 resists are jsut better compared to that. T2 is better for one or two independant resists compared to rep bonus, however, rep bonus favors all resists
Quote: --- Their tank is already beyond the 3k mark. Way beyond that mark.
Are you saying 3k dps tank? If so you're insane, or you're giving up pretty much everything for tank. Right now, I have a Golem fit built on EFT for missions. It has 1015 dps with fury CMs, 2 target painters, and 960dps thermal tank as its resist hole. It can only run for a little over 4 minutes till it caps out.
So, bastion would double that, plus increase resists, so, AFTER bastion iteration 1, it may get around 2200-2500 dps tank for the same duration of time.. However, it will not be able to receive any assistance. This means with a little bit of pressure, it can be capped out. Due to their sig radius, it shouldn't be hard to do... All you gotta do is get 2-3 destroyers under its guns, which isn't hard. Or you could just orbit at range, cause they wouldn't have great tracking.
Quote: --- If they did this, the Paladin would become a mini-archon --- and completely immune to cap warfare, meaning it'd be (linked + drugged) hanging somewhere around the 5k local rep, and could run either local tank or 6 of 7 remote armor repairers cap stable. It would indicate that you'd need to have built a dread already in your c2/c3 to take that one down - together with the fleet it is supporting.
They can't receive cap when bastioned, but if you truly feel it's too strong, then we could knock out cap war immunity.. |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 09:04:00 -
[4400] - Quote
Torp Golem gets range and looses speed + agility + align time + tank without bastion + drone bay. I'm sorry, I don't see the upside here. Caldari best Missile boat is CNR and in some cases Golem. Now the 60+ days of training for it are going to allow me to fly a very slow ship, that has to use bastion to tank, so it cannot move and gets a bonus to web's, that don't work as good as painters, which Golem is only one of 4 Marauders that has to use... |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 09:16:00 -
[4401] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Torp Golem gets range and looses speed + agility + align time + tank without bastion + drone bay. I'm sorry, I don't see the upside here. Caldari best Missile boat is CNR and in some cases Golem. Now the 60+ days of training for it are going to allow me to fly a very slow ship, that has to use bastion to tank, so it cannot move and gets a bonus to web's, that don't work as good as painters, which Golem is only one of 4 Marauders that has to use...
I'm still pretty certain that all the base hull nerfs, including the web bonus loss of two ships, was done solely for the sake of FORCING bastion and MJD. Hell, CCP even said the nerf to velocity was for MJD.
Now, CCP tried to come back in iteration 2 and slightly revert the nerf to the hulls, but tried to do so yet again with forcing bastion in mind... This lead to a now sub par bastion, and wasn't enough to bring the hulls back up to par...or rather, make them par for a change.. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 09:22:00 -
[4402] - Quote
also, torp Golem isn't worth flying currently.. It's maybe 100dps more than a cruise golem, but at the cost of greatly reduced range, and less effective dps... not to mention the higher fitting costs....
Even if you're brawling, it's not worth it to use torps over CM.... |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 09:42:00 -
[4403] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Torp Golem gets range and looses speed + agility + align time + tank without bastion + drone bay. I'm sorry, I don't see the upside here. Caldari best Missile boat is CNR and in some cases Golem. Now the 60+ days of training for it are going to allow me to fly a very slow ship, that has to use bastion to tank, so it cannot move and gets a bonus to web's, that don't work as good as painters, which Golem is only one of 4 Marauders that has to use... I'm still pretty certain that all the base hull nerfs, including the web bonus loss of two ships, was done solely for the sake of FORCING bastion and MJD. Hell, CCP even said the nerf to velocity was for MJD. Now, CCP tried to come back in iteration 2 and slightly revert the nerf to the hulls, but tried to do so yet again with forcing bastion in mind... This lead to a now sub par bastion, and wasn't enough to bring the hulls back up to par...or rather, make them par for a change..
this sadly is the view we're stuck with - 'oh we have new animations for ships so now we MUST use them regardless of the damage to everything and everyone else'
"and hey, we decided that it'd be cool to see more MJD tactics cuz that looked cool in the tourney this year, so lets try and force a MJD centric mobility function too....and for kicks we'll make it so it can't actually move without one."
once i saw the most recent update from the team it pretty much nailed into the coffin "we're not actually changing these ships to make them better, just to force through a really bad idea." |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:06:00 -
[4404] - Quote
To sum it up, once you take the fitted ship into account (which previously wasn't possible due to lack of fittings) they received a pure buff. I really don't care about your pith a-type med shield boosted carebear-mobiles, but about what they can accomplish in pvp. Cause someone will use those for that and suddenly all those doods go 'WTF; I didn't know they could do THAT' Most of what I hear is crying that you don't get how that ship is working.
To make it clear, fit a pith XL-b-type (appropriate mod for a pvp-shieldmarauder) and check up that tank.
Also, how is agility/velocity/mass/signerf (lol) going to affect your missioning? How is the loss of a couple hundred raw-HP affecting the ship? Dualweb-Battleships have no issues whatsoever to blap a thrasher at 500m, really. A 80%-web does the same as regular dualwebs. The big advantage for pvp-marauders is their huge cargohold, thus they are rather hard to cap out. Taking into account that a pvp-fitted battleship has either capchaining logis in fleet or a heavy capbooster anyways, two for risky repsetups.
To the paladin: I fitted one as an archon, went up to +230GJ maxrecharge, passive. That is a little less than a neutfitted bhaalgorn can neut, though it is enough to keep running while under pressure of a 8neut abaddon. If you'd take that cap-warfare immunity, it would rep like 2 guards... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:17:00 -
[4405] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:To sum it up, once you take the fitted ship into account (which previously wasn't possible due to lack of fittings) they received a pure buff. I really don't care about your pith a-type med shield boosted carebear-mobiles, but about what they can accomplish in pvp. Cause someone will use those for that and suddenly all those doods go 'WTF; I didn't know they could do THAT' Most of what I hear is crying that you don't get how that ship is working. To make it clear, fit a pith XL-b-type (appropriate mod for a pvp-shieldmarauder) and check up that tank. Also, how is agility/velocity/mass/signerf (lol) going to affect your missioning? How is the loss of a couple hundred raw-HP affecting the ship? Dualweb-Battleships have no issues whatsoever to blap a thrasher at 500m, really. A 80%-web does the same as regular dualwebs. The big advantage for pvp-marauders is their huge cargohold, thus they are rather hard to cap out. Taking into account that a pvp-fitted battleship has either capchaining logis in fleet or a heavy capbooster anyways, two for risky repsetups. To the paladin: I fitted one as an archon, went up to +230GJ maxrecharge, passive. That is a little less than a neutfitted bhaalgorn can neut, though it is enough to keep running while under pressure of a 8neut abaddon. If you'd take that cap-warfare immunity, it would rep like 2 guards... Yet still a significant nerf for the purpose most ppl purchased and trained for. What if all of a sudden CCP made mach an Indy ship? |

Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:38:00 -
[4406] - Quote
+1 for the bastion -1 for the reduction of web boni |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:42:00 -
[4407] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:+1 for the bastion -1 for the reduction of web boni
no -1 for nerfing the hulls to force bastion and MJD? |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:45:00 -
[4408] - Quote
I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.
I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:01:00 -
[4409] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.
I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time.
/agreed
Though I'm not sure how many players would use it on a Golem.
One major issue I have though is that without the resistance buff that bastion iteration 1 gave, there's not a whole lot of reasoning behind the bastion module.
CCP could just take the current iteration hull, and cook the ewar immunity and rep boost bonus into the hull. I don't think the range bonus of bastion is at all worth immobility, as anyone who has flown a Marauder already has a setup that works without the range bonus.
The nerfs to the base hull is already enough balance to allow the immunity and rep bonus to be applied directly to the hull.
So, it would look more like
Golem
Role bonuse 100% bonus to missile damage Immune to ewar Shield boost amount increase by X%
Then blah blah blah on the Marauder and Caldari BS bonuses...
With the proposed hull nerfs it would work well, as they would already be extremely slow, not have much HP, less cap, slower align, and whatever else CCP nerfed.
I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying without resist buff in bastion, there's not a lot of point to bastion when the bonuses left for bastion that are worth anything can be attached directly to the hull and still wouldn't make it OP.
Extremely powerful, but not OP.
You could even kill off the MJD bonus with this design, but again, I would rather them work something else out. |

Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:04:00 -
[4410] - Quote
As much as the changes will be interesting, I just dont like the new meta that seems to be getting imposed on all the marauders.
My current setup has an AB on the Vargur - I get nice speed, and I actually 'fly' the ship in missions to get into range, create traversal, manouver - like I said - fly it.
The new marauders will be like all mission ships now! Sit still, take a pounding, shoot from MJD range. I'm sorry - but its just dull. The T1 BS all do this, all do it as expected using the MJD for range. Seeing my Vargur become another Maelstrom is just bland - its going to be slow and lumbering. Is there any difference bar the price for a T2 tank?
Isn't this meant to be a Tempest Hull. a large battlecruiser in disguise?
If you are going to add a midslot bonus (web) on it, then why cant it have another mid for the sake of a superfluous high? Its never going to fit a web if its sitting still 100k from a target, and if its got a web, then it wont be using the bastion module, so it will need it mids to tank. Same for the Golem in many ways.
The new Marauders will just be a homogenised T2 battleship - small variations per race, same bonuses, no choices.
Sad Panda. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:31:00 -
[4411] - Quote
I keep seeing people post EFT numbers on repair potential with and without bastion that are simply created in a vacuum. They simulate maximum numbers with billions of ISK in modules, implants, and pills. You'll also notice that those posts don't include running time at those numbers, DPS potential, or any other pertinent information about how that ship would operate on the field.
It simply doesn't provide any real benefit to this discussion as these would be considered fail-fits when viewed holistically. Regardless of the maximum repair potential these ships are tens of thousands of EHP short of their T1/faction/pirate battleship cousins and will quite easily be F1'd off the field in even moderate size engagements.
I do find the remote repair platform version of the Paladin posted above interesting. However, even if it did rep the same amount as 2 guardians, at what range would it do so? Also, the benefit of 2 guardians is that you only loose half your gang/fleets repair potential if you lose one of them. You can also field 2 guardians for much cheaper and the two together would have significantly more EHP between the two of them.
I'm all for collecting information about what these hulls are capable of using the current iteration numbers. However, I think we need to ensure that those numbers are representative of real-world viable fits. Otherwise all we are doing is providing a skewed picture to the devs and community that will ultimately ensure the Marauder class is subpar compared to anything else. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Signal11th
DARKNESS.
1118
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:56:00 -
[4412] - Quote
This sounds like someone new has arrived at CCP towers with great new ideas and he/she is really infectious with their enthusiasim. Then someone actually thought about it....... Powered by-áreaTh-áFilter V1.23 "All posts by this pilot are personal held views and not representitive of-áany-ácorp or alliance I am currently a member of. Like I'd give a-ásh*t anyway. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:56:00 -
[4413] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.
I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time. Imma say +2 lows on the vargur. Mainly because if it is losing it sb bonus it is likely going to need 4 slots to do a proper shield tank well outside of bastion, which means dropping a tc. It would also allow it to roll similar dps on an armor tank, and have a 1 mid slot adv over the mach |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:43:00 -
[4414] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: Imma say +2 lows on the vargur. Mainly because if it is losing it sb bonus it is likely going to need 4 slots to do a proper shield tank well outside of bastion, which means dropping a tc. It would also allow it to roll similar dps on an armor tank, and have a 1 mid slot adv over the mach
you have to keep it in line with the others so it will only get 1 slot not 2. and i think it will do fine with just the additional 1 low, you cannot compare this to a mach as a mach works in a different way.
People need to remember these ships will be very niche they will likely never be used by big alliances due to their cost (for pvp) and you dont really need the most mobile ship to run missions/plexs.
CCP have nerfed the hull... true, this is to make people use what the ship is supposed to be used for. the bastion mod itself will be a supplement used mainly in pve, or medium sized lowesec gang pvp, with all the new changes that ccp announced in the recent twitch feed they will be even better.
However at the same time in the twitch feed the auto looter was announced, this makes me question does the marauder class really need a tractor beam bonus? i don't think it does CCP should remove this from the hull completely perhaps adding in a 50% Smartbomb range boost, or a buff that does not necessarily only lend itself to PVE situations. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
237
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:50:00 -
[4415] - Quote
Here's a few things that everyone seems to have a consensus on:
1. The introduction of the mobile 'loot' structure with Rubicon has killed the Marauder as an active salvage platform (dead, dead, dead), so tractor-based bonuses are completely redundant. 2. Four high utility slots is just insane. Marauders should receive a mid slot instead and, ideally - exchange another high slot for a low (two utility slots are still plenty, especially considering the above). 3. T2 resists and the proposed tweaks to the specifications for the ships are fine, provided they retain the original shield boost and armor repair bonus. 4. The MJD bonuses allow for some interesting long-range applications. 5. Bastion and the animation is a COOL concept, but it's a mixed bag of snakes at this point (and we won't even touch on the stasis webs). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
493
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:19:00 -
[4416] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.
I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time.
But, why would I use a webber on my golem when a second painter does the job just as well only with 90km range? (falloff included ofc). Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
237
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:22:00 -
[4417] - Quote
Here's a revised Bastion concept. Bastion becomes a Marauder skill-based feature, with a duration of 30-150 seconds (depending on level). The following only apply when activated:
EWAR immunity
Heat absorption ... +20% heat per level
Stasis web ... +7.5% velocity per level
Weapon Rate of fire ... +5% per level (pulse lasers, blasters, torpedoes and autocannons only)
Ship Velocity and Agility ... +5% per level (each)
As Bastion no longer renders a ship immobile, it has the following drawbacks:
Fixed 5 minute cool down
25% capacitor module increase (reduced by 5% per level)
50% targeting range reduction (reduced by 5% per level)
What we effectively end up with is the improved MJD allowing Marauders to setup for long-range and Bastion becomes the perfect component for all short-range engagements. And the previous Marauder bonuses now make a lot more sense. In fact, with some slot reassignment (discussed in previous posts) short-range fits might not even utilize the MJD - which gives them an extra slot to run an extra stasis web, sensor booster, etc. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

BaBaBarbara Ann
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:36:00 -
[4418] - Quote
Well I'm flying a Golem in a null sec drone region, and you know what? it's awsome running patarol with a torpy golem with 25M isk/tik + 5-15 M salvaging (3 patrol/hour, 1 patrol tik).
Now i'd like a refound for the marauder skill and i want someone (maybe a dev ) to come here and buy my golem (i wont bring it to empire )
Torpy golem is useless everywhere but here, like i said, and here for me a 25M isk/tik is a very effective ship BUT with the upcoming patch the Golem will be nerfed too much as far as
TANKING NERF it will LOOSE THE 7,5% sb bonus replaced by a flat 30% from bastion (is 7,5% less) it will have SAME RESIS ( golem now is 0% and 50%,it'll get 0 and 50%, Alvus Queen thanks you) cap recharge nerf
SALVAGING NERF Salvage drones or Scout drones that's the question. Art Thou shalt drop my bandwith, not my drone bay!
ESCAPING SLOWED -bastion -neutral come from wh - un-bastion - alling
neut: "hello Golem, wanna meet my scramb?) me: "ofc, sure, do as you please" neut: "ty, you are very kind" me: "np, you are welcome" net: "Can i call some friends?" me: "Sure, do it, the more we are the better!"
So i've trained a PVE boat, you know, for PVE! Why the hell I've to find myself in a pvp boat??
With the same logic MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY! all together: "MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!"
I apologize but with my all lvl 5 skilled TENGU i can reach 17M/tik at best (running horde) and with the upcoming patch my golem won't run patrol like this so it means a loss of 500 M isk month +/-
If only i could trade my golem with a RSI  |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
238
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:43:00 -
[4419] - Quote
^^ Too funny. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2693

|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:24:00 -
[4420] - Quote
Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.
That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.
Thanks for your time. |
|
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:28:00 -
[4421] - Quote
finally common sense has prevailed ... at least for now  Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:29:00 -
[4422] - Quote
BaBaBarbara Ann wrote:Well I'm flying a Golem in a null sec drone region, and you know what? it's awsome running patarol with a torpy golem with 25M isk/tik + 5-15 M salvaging (3 patrol/hour, 1 patrol tik). Now i'd like a refound for the marauder skill and i want someone (maybe a dev  ) to come here and buy my golem (i wont bring it to empire  ) Torpy golem is useless everywhere but here, like i said, and here for me a 25M isk/tik is a very effective ship BUT with the upcoming patch the Golem will be nerfed too much as far as TANKING NERF it will LOOSE THE 7,5% sb bonus replaced by a flat 30% from bastion (is 7,5% less) it will have SAME RESIS ( golem now is 0% and 50%,it'll get 0 and 50%, Alvus Queen thanks you) cap recharge nerf SALVAGING NERF Salvage drones or Scout drones that's the question. Art Thou shalt drop my bandwith, not my drone bay! ESCAPING SLOWED -bastion -neutral come from wh - un-bastion - alling neut: "hello Golem, wanna meet my scramb?) me: "ofc, sure, do as you please" neut: "ty, you are very kind" me: "np, you are welcome" net: "Can i call some friends?" me: "Sure, do it, the more we are the better!" So i've trained a PVE boat, you know, for PVE! Why the hell I've to find myself in a pvp boat?? With the same logic MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY! all together: "MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!" I apologize but with my all lvl 5 skilled TENGU i can reach 17M/tik at best (running horde) and with the upcoming patch my golem won't run patrol like this so it means a loss of 500 M isk month +/- If only i could trade my golem with a RSI 
Allow me to put your mind at ease... you DON'T have to bastion so you can run away... CCP doesnt want to make it so people like you can go around making money all day with no real risk
RISK=REWARD |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:29:00 -
[4423] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Tyvm for the update |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1585
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:30:00 -
[4424] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. It did seem to be the most effective means of using it in both PvP and PvE Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:38:00 -
[4425] - Quote
now how about removing the TP bonus from the golem? the others don't have a TC bonus after-all forcing golems to give up a mid slot is unfair and odd... it's not an e-war ship so why have it? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1267
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:38:00 -
[4426] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
You really have no clue what to do with these ships. do you now? Flipping back to the original disastrous changes, and then hedging your bets that things will change again once you get Sisi feedback...right...sure.
Let's see.....Nov 19th is 7 weeks away, you have to lock down code at least a week before that. This mess is nowhere near Sisi yet, so exactly what is the window going to be for testing, evaluating feedback, putting out a new set, then evaluating that feedback, then locking down code?
Yeah, this will end well. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
421
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:43:00 -
[4427] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Lol..what you ppl are meh. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

BaBaBarbara Ann
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:52:00 -
[4428] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:
Allow me to put your mind at ease... you DON'T have to bastion so you can run away... CCP doesnt want to make it so people like you can go around making money all day with no real risk
RISK=REWARD
Read back my post and see if you can understand this "bastion needed for tanking withou the +7,5% sb bonus".
Aaaaaaaaand, as you can read later, dev said +7,5% bonus will remain (7,5 * 5 = 37,5 )
this means they simply agree. Removing the 7,5% boost would be a huge mistake for pve uses.
my 2 cents
furthermore, ppl like me are ppl like you raison d'+¬tre. Who else will you pew pew at? Other pvp player? You need my deadspace modules ( $$$ ) dont' you? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1305
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 14:58:00 -
[4429] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
thank you thank you thank you! Though you might want to consider a 3rd option. I know I have presented a few that effectively meld the two options together plus opens back up the 4th bonus to be made unique for each ship.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Gosti Kahanid
Farstriders Apocalypse Now.
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:02:00 -
[4430] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Thank you very much. Just one little thing I would like to point out, which has been already: Give the Golem a bonus to ExplosionRadius instead of the Targetpainter. For the ship intself it almost has the same effect, but with this it doesn-¦t neet to sacrefice a mid-Slot for this effect. The other Marauders also don-¦t have a eWar-Bonus |
|

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
604
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:08:00 -
[4431] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. EXCELLENT! Thank you for coming to your senses, providing a meaningful reason to use pirate or marauder BS in various situations and keeping the tanking strength out of Bastion mode.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:08:00 -
[4432] - Quote
just. remove. TP bonus . from . golem. or add to other ships instead of tracking tp bonus to be fair Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

marVLs
428
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:14:00 -
[4433] - Quote
But one question.
CCP are You planning to replace tractor bonus with something that's not totally useless? (rubicon tractor structure makes it useless) |

Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:19:00 -
[4434] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Holy mother of **** after 25 days we finally get a reply! I approve of this and hopefully the Sisi testing won't end up with nearly 100 pages of ranting without any feedback like this one has.
Also, never go back to v2, come up with something that isn't a mishmash of everything. T2 is supposed to be specialized, you said it yourself in the devblog. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:22:00 -
[4435] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Thank you! I can't wait to test Kronos, Paladin and Vargur on SiSi, though I doubt the Vargur will perform well as a sniper, considering the arties' DPS. |

Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
340
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:23:00 -
[4436] - Quote
Just be warry that you (CCP) don't just turn all Marauders into the exact same ship...or else there really isn't a point in having more than a shield/armor version if they will all have the exact same bonuses with no tactical differences. (if golem gets painter bonus, why no web bonus for paladin/kronos???)
Also, this sounds like another Uni-Inv situation might be popping up. You think you know best, and with the short amount of time you are giving your customers to test even just ONE of these two possibilities (ONLY two) it makes it appear that you are just doing it for token reasons of just to be able to say you did it.
And chances are that the initial feedback given to you on BOTH versions will not change much between now and after they are on the server. But alas, it likely won't matter what we say. (going by past situations, you have a nasty track record of claiming that we, the users, are wrong) http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing -á-á < Unified Inventory is NOT ready... |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
576
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:24:00 -
[4437] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Given that I wouldn't have been able to put Stasis AND Target Painters AND tank AND MJD on my Golem anyway, thus wasting marauder bonuses, I will happily try them on SISI :D G££ <= Me |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:32:00 -
[4438] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Don't care, just cancel the marauder changes and post the interceptors thread. |

rock ape
ABC Warriors
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:36:00 -
[4439] - Quote
Happy to read update #2! Glad to see we're back on track with the Marauder rebalancing! 
Was impressed with the Twitch live stream and Rubicon expansion. Nice work! Good to see the devs listening to the feedback from their player base. |

Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
121
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:38:00 -
[4440] - Quote
I am disappointed to see the base hull nerfs are still present, especially on the Vargur, but similar changes were made to all of them. It would be nice to keep the current speed and drone bays... and sensor strength is still terrible when not in bastion.
Using bastion, on the other hand, will be amazing.
|
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1305
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:42:00 -
[4441] - Quote
marVLs wrote:But one question.
CCP are You planning to replace tractor bonus with something that's not totally useless? (rubicon tractor structure makes it useless)
here here. how about a web range bonus? to make those "other" guys happy. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:44:00 -
[4442] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:marVLs wrote:But one question.
CCP are You planning to replace tractor bonus with something that's not totally useless? (rubicon tractor structure makes it useless) here here. how about a web range bonus? to make those "other" guys happy.
nah leave the web bonuses to the pirate battleships Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1305
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:49:00 -
[4443] - Quote
never mind. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:50:00 -
[4444] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:marVLs wrote:But one question.
CCP are You planning to replace tractor bonus with something that's not totally useless? (rubicon tractor structure makes it useless) here here. how about a web range bonus? to make those "other" guys happy. nah leave the web bonuses to the pirate battleships AFAIK pirate bs get a strength bonus not a range bonus.
bhaalgorn gets range
seriously though web strength and range bonuses are immensely OP, pls remove. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:53:00 -
[4445] - Quote
webs need a strength nerf and web bonuses on all pirate ships need a nerf down to 5%.. Gal and minnie recons need a range nerf on webs and points too Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1305
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:53:00 -
[4446] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:
bhaalgorn gets range
seriously though web strength and range bonuses are immensely OP, pls remove.
indeed it does.  There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
252
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:56:00 -
[4447] - Quote
My thoughts: When they were introduced after Trinity, the purpose of the marauder class battleships was PvE, and PvE only. The high price, the horrible sig radius, and terrible sensor strength; all for the purpose to make them useless in combat (with the notable exception of some Alliance Tournements.)That was their role, and since then, they have done their job, when and where expected.
So I fail to understand CCP's current charge in trying to force these adequately preforming ships into new or additional roles, a move which looks dangerously like it will end with these ship trying to multi-task, but end up preforming in none. If I want to field a billion ISK ship, I'll bring my carrier. Capital tank, capital dps, and capital fleet.
My golem exterminates rats, and it work just fine.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:00:00 -
[4448] - Quote
Anybody notice how CCP put up the original new marauder plan, got 219 pages of feedback, and completely ignored ALL OF IT.
They just said the original plan is going on sisi. WTF do they even ask us for feedback for?? |

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1586
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:08:00 -
[4449] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Anybody notice how CCP put up the original new marauder plan, got 219 pages of feedback, and completely ignored ALL OF IT.
They just said the original plan is going on sisi. WTF do they even ask us for feedback for?? Marauders were split between a 3 way croud. The PvP croud wanted a hardcore PvP BS. The Incursion croud wanted them to be better fleet based. And the classic mission running and complex running croud, for the most part, liked the first iteration. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:10:00 -
[4450] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Anybody notice how CCP put up the original new marauder plan, got 219 pages of feedback, and completely ignored ALL OF IT.
They just said the original plan is going on sisi. WTF do they even ask us for feedback for??
CCP's job isn't to make us happy (because that's impossible). Their job is to tick us off as little as possible... just like every other business out there. But yes, it is aggravating. |
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
386
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:11:00 -
[4451] - Quote
i like it.. but you have it as having normal t2 resists of the 2nd iteration, but the 30% in bastion mode.
do we get original marauder resistances or the regular t2 resistances?
thank you for dropping the web bonus. it was gay in combination with sniper mode. (gay meaning weird)... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1306
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:18:00 -
[4452] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:i like it.. but you have it as having normal t2 resists of the 2nd iteration, but the 30% in bastion mode.
do we get original marauder resistances or the regular t2 resistances?
thank you for dropping the web bonus. it was gay in combination with sniper mode. (gay meaning weird)...
honestly i wish we kept the T2 resists (or even a scaled back version like field command ships used to have) but when in bastion mode we got the 30% increase to hull resistance. as 78% resists on hull would be epic to get me threw an AAR or ASB reload. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
386
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:25:00 -
[4453] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Mole Guy wrote:i like it.. but you have it as having normal t2 resists of the 2nd iteration, but the 30% in bastion mode.
do we get original marauder resistances or the regular t2 resistances?
thank you for dropping the web bonus. it was gay in combination with sniper mode. (gay meaning weird)... honestly i wish we kept the T2 resists (or even a scaled back version like field command ships used to have) but when in bastion mode we got the 30% increase to hull resistance. as 78% resists on hull would be epic to get me threw an AAR or ASB reload. agreed. it would REALLY tank! bring on the pirates. i will take em down..=)
|

Wizzard117
Viziam Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:28:00 -
[4454] - Quote
ok, I'm done posting any feedback cuz CCP just made everyone look stupid - first revision happened, got feedback - based on this we got 2nd revision - and a feedback for that 2nd revision - based on this we have reverted to first one - and we're going to put this on SiSi asap - to get some feedback on 1st revision - again 220+ pages (most active ship rebalance topic for quite some time) seemed to be completely ignored |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:28:00 -
[4455] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:webs need a strength nerf and web bonuses on all pirate ships need a nerf down to 5%.. Gal and minnie recons need a range nerf on webs and points too why ? Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1306
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:34:00 -
[4456] - Quote
Wizzard117 wrote: 220+ pages (most active ship rebalance topic for quite some time) seemed to be completely ignored
to be fair the last time CCP did a version two they started a new op or split the topic to 4 ops... so 220 is average tbh.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Clendestined
Apologetic Tendencies
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:37:00 -
[4457] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Thank you and I love you. Ver. 2.0 sucked balls.
Now to figure out what to swap the tractors for...increased salvage range would be nice :P |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1561
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:37:00 -
[4458] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, ... Thanks for your time. This is excellent news, but please can you comment on the Paladin's 5% capacitor fake bonus? Why is this bonus left on when it's useless and also similar bonuses have been removed from other ships during rebalancing? |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
577
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:39:00 -
[4459] - Quote
Too bad we lost those drones though. G££ <= Me |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
989
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:41:00 -
[4460] - Quote
Oh well. Guess i'll cancel my marauder training when i get home.
It's a shame as i was looking forward to flying battle ships more in PVP but without web or target painter bonuses, these things will be garbage for close range brawling fights.
Finger crossed for a good BLOPS balance.  I'm just here for the likes |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:46:00 -
[4461] - Quote
Overall I'm fairly pleased. The base hull will be quite functional without the bastion module fit. The bastion module has a purpose now in both survivability (resists) and repair potential. Those two things added together will offset the loss of RR pretty well in all but medium to large engagement sizes.
I think there's room to leave the T2 resists in place while possibly scaling back the bastion resist bonus to like 20% to help out the incursion runners. I'm still voting for the bastion module to require a turret/launcher hard point with that 8th high converted to a hard point. With the lowered role bonus the hulls will see about a 9% increase in base DPS over TQ. It would give the non-bastion mode a decent gain to balance the loss of tank from not fitting the bastion module. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1306
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:47:00 -
[4462] - Quote
ok so with my ideas this is what i would like to see:
BASTION MODULE
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% Boosts all hull resistances by 30% Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s and cannot warp (mass is unchanged). Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time doesn't require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging. Skill requirements: High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5
KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, signature resolution bonus for Target spectrum breaker module reduced to 0% , 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon rate of fire 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 14000 PWG (+2000), 580 CPU (+30) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6600(-200) / 7200(-100) / 8600(+400) Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 77.5% (+22.5) KIN / 50% (+20) THERM Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 75.62% (+24.37) KIN / 59.37% (+16.245) THERM Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6900(+1275) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 6 cap/s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 m/s(-28) / .114(-0.0038) / 113160000(+11360000) / 17.8s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+3km) / 120(+39) / 10 Sensor strength: 13 Magnetometric Signature radius: 420(-80) There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:50:00 -
[4463] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
does this mean as they are on TQ right now, or the changes listed in the first post. just to make sure it's clear. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:57:00 -
[4464] - Quote
CCP thanks for coming back on this thread finally but seriously bad decision just saying to everyone who has given feedback that u dont really care what they say.
Cant see why your choosing the route of 30% on bastion, while it will give a good tank while in bastion, noone will want to enter it because your too vulnerable while you cannot receive RR.
It needs to be just T2 resists everything else was fine in the OP - though tractor beams & slot layout need looking into because of the new deployables |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:01:00 -
[4465] - Quote
People should not be complaining about these, except to complain that they're too strong. 30% unstacking global resists on top of partial T2 resists and a tank bonus is absurd. Dual XLASB Vargur/Golem are not reasonably killable without involving capital ships. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:11:00 -
[4466] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:CCP thanks for coming back on this thread finally but seriously bad decision just saying to everyone who has given feedback that u dont really care what they say.
Cant see why your choosing the route of 30% on bastion, while it will give a good tank while in bastion, noone will want to enter it because your too vulnerable while you cannot receive RR.
It needs to be just T2 resists everything else was fine in the OP - though tractor beams & slot layout need looking into because of the new deployables
If you go back through the thread, the overwhelming consensus was that the first iteration was preferred over the second. That being said, I agree with you that there's still a need for something outside of bastion use to make these hulls attractive in and of themselves. There have been several very good suggestions along this line.
Xequecal wrote:People should not be complaining about these, except to complain that they're too strong. 30% unstacking global resists on top of partial T2 resists and a tank bonus is absurd. Dual XLASB Vargur/Golem are not reasonably killable without involving capital ships.
They just need to fix the dual (any size) ASB setups. It's a problem regardless of hull class. The repair bonus on Marauders just make it a glaring issue. A simple 1 per hull rule like the AARs have would clear that right up. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
52
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:16:00 -
[4467] - Quote
and still no comments on TP golem bonus from CCP. i'm gettin' nervous why we must spend slot to fit dps application module while others get tracking for free Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:22:00 -
[4468] - Quote
Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:26:00 -
[4469] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.
well one black bird will keep that vargur from locking anyone and once it goes to bastion mod then i would assume a few bombs will take care of this ship?
how many bombs would you need to pop a vargur in bastion mode?
or dreads in blappy mode... you wont even need hugnins cuss there is already 0 transversal. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:28:00 -
[4470] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken. well one black bird will keep that vargur from locking anyone and once it goes to bastion mod then i would assume a few bombs will take care of this ship? how many bombs would you need to pop a vargur in bastion mode?
It's immune to ewar, you can't jam it. |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:29:00 -
[4471] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken. well one black bird will keep that vargur from locking anyone and once it goes to bastion mod then i would assume a few bombs will take care of this ship? how many bombs would you need to pop a vargur in bastion mode? It's immune to ewar, you can't jam it.
read again you will see i understand that in my first response. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Zeus Maximo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
471
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:32:00 -
[4472] - Quote
Kronos for PVP is once again deemed worthless.
No web = No advantage |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:33:00 -
[4473] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken. Is there a non-ASB fit that produces the same result? It's not the hull or bastion that's broken it's the ASBs. And I agree with you that a dual ASB fit Marauder is going to be stupid broken. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:34:00 -
[4474] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: read again you will see i understand that in my first response.
They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:45:00 -
[4475] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken. Is there a non-ASB fit that produces the same result? It's not the hull or bastion that's broken it's the ASBs. And I agree with you that a dual ASB fit Marauder is going to be stupid broken.
how about in bastion mode you can only have one active asb? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
721
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:52:00 -
[4476] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:MeBiatch wrote: read again you will see i understand that in my first response.
They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more.
Does it still get links in bastion mode? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:56:00 -
[4477] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Xequecal wrote:MeBiatch wrote: read again you will see i understand that in my first response.
They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more. Does it still get links in bastion mode?
does a dread in seige or a carrier in triage? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Infinity Ziona
Hot Drop Buns
454
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 17:59:00 -
[4478] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree. Lmao. I'm down in Fountain ATM making 100m to 500 mill per hour running combat sigs. Last one I did I got SS 425mm rail, Core B 100mn AB and 21 tier effects and your whining about missions in high sec getting buffed. These are good changes and really won't affect missioning at all when they're already very easy in Marauders anyway. |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
721
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:05:00 -
[4479] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Xequecal wrote:MeBiatch wrote: read again you will see i understand that in my first response.
They reduced the base sig to 360m, so if it has links you'd need at least 25 bombs, and that's if you managed to make them all simultaneously explode. If it gets boosts off you'd need even more. Does it still get links in bastion mode? does a dread in seige or a carrier in triage?
If I knew the answer to that new question, I would of assumed the same thing to apply to bastion but I never used any cap ship so I ask the question. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:09:00 -
[4480] - Quote
XLSB trip vampires and maybe an amp or cap booster, yeah it takes more fitting space but where's the 60 second dead in the water reload cycle? :) trade off is between a slightly lower rep amount for near unstoppable reps, running the XLSB keeps the cap low, so the vampires steal cap from the enemies, to feed more tanking..and if that isn't enough 10 second reload cap booster...
agreed dual ASB is not fun, one ASB onto BC's and cruisers isn't fun, hell XLSB sleipnirs and claymores were nasty enough.
a few pages back i noticed a comment regarding marauders being PVE only on their release - this is a grave and very common misconception, as well as the three groups comment about this ship's focus wanting to be skewed for one of three environments
they have bonuses that make them very easy to fit in PVE.
they have bonuses that make them good conceptually for incursions, (incursions being an AI driven PVP simulation)
they have bonuses and slot configurations that make them very good at PVP.
the reasons behind this misconception is due to the people using them, not the ships themselves.
marauders make the best remote repair battleships in game - so they were given weak sensors, but also a local rep bonus. (and around the time, alpha maelstroms were a very big problem, ccp did not want tracking speed and fall off range given to a ship with 1400mm's and so the vargur was given 1/3rd the powergrid of a tempest)
this means that for incursions: you need not carry any logistics ships in the fleet, rather than the 8/2 dps logi rule you run 10/0 but it's not done because the PUG fleets that frequent incursions aren't comfortable with the idea, if infact it has ever occurred to them (tinkers are a pain to fly)
for PVP you need to use smaller ships and remote sensors to bolster the weaknesses of the marauder's line up - but you also have the choice to use logistics ships in place of RR modules for tank, and so can carry large amounts of energy warfare, which helps the battleships deal with tackle, cruisers and reducing energy weapon dps.
for mission PVE you have a local repair bonus for the attrition sites that PVE comprises of, as well as higher than average resistances to ease up on capacitor use a little.
all three benefit from the marauder's main focus of damage projection
and all but incursions benefit from tractor beams - wanna pull that cruiser your gang just killed to the gate fast so you can move on? tractor away lads!
it's never that the ship is only good in one environment, it's always that the pilots flying them only ever want to use em for one thing - creativity goes a long way on ship fittings.
additionally (@ ccp):
I will thank ccp for making another update, and I am glad you've chosen the least work intensive and lesser of two evils approach - but i will not congratulate you - your choices and handling of this particular situation have been much less than adequate and I will expect much higher standards from you in the future.
you've shown you're capable of better..your players are trying to help you and you are ignoring them for the path that best suits your own needs and preconceived ideas, and i cannot condone this...it is not a good enough standard for people in your position to hold yourselves to - and so i find myself feeling immensely disappointed by your conduct and apparent lack of effort*.
*your behavior implies no effort whether there was effort or not |
|

Savira Terrant
Forsaken Identity Unchained.
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:13:00 -
[4481] - Quote
My feedback on those proposed changes is as follows:
Either iteration of the Bastionmodule is good enough for my requirements. I do not care much if I have better resists or the repbonus (well the resists do turn out a bit worse on my fittings giving up all of the repbonus, but it's adapt or die I guess), because either can work out the same way it does today even without the Bastion (which I won't use in lowsec, obviously).
I do like to see changes to the hulls themselves still though. Having used the Golem prominently I can only make proposals for that ship:
Please add a lowslot to the Golem, it desperately needs more versatility, for I can only fit either a dcu or one cpr, while not being able to add fitting mods without crippling my dps too much to be competitive to the other Marauders. Obviously, the Golem also desperately needs the TP-bonus and twoTargetpainters (some would argue even more I guess) and thus the midslots. And since the advent of the Noctis, I would like to argue that the Golem can rather do less with one of it's highslots, than one of its midslots in return for adding a lowslot ( at least everyone I know stopped using the Marauders for looting since the Noctis came along, if not earlier).
So please Ytterbium, Fozzie, consider to look at the hulls as a whole once more, to put them in a good state even if we would like to use them without the Bastion.
Thank you . |

Captain StringfellowHawk
Lo-Ball Incorporated Backwater Aristocrats
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:14:00 -
[4482] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Finally Good News. The Version 1 changes are actually what made me decide to Grab a few Marauders Again thinking it will no longer be an outperformed ship. Hopefully Version 1 gets better Fine Tuned then the Horrible V2 changes. A Tier 2 BS Should live up to the Description it holds in the Info Window. Not just reduced to Farming.
|

Infinity Ziona
Hot Drop Buns
454
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:20:00 -
[4483] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken. Is there a non-ASB fit that produces the same result? It's not the hull or bastion that's broken it's the ASBs. And I agree with you that a dual ASB fit Marauder is going to be stupid broken. Until it runs out of charges at which point it's screwed. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:27:00 -
[4484] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
R.I.P. pvp marauder, it was nice thinking of you. Round 1 was won by people that think shooting red crosses requires a dedicated shipclass.
:<
Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.
I promise you that an ASB vargur (solo) dies to a solo dramiel. Just as the OP Deimos I caught and needed help with cause incoming hostile rescueblob. (It died in the end, yielding a beautiful 2bil killmail/including pod)
Everything dies. ASB fits surely die eventually. Pls stop being bad. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
509
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:29:00 -
[4485] - Quote
To those saying these would be unkillable in bastion.
Not true.... sure, duel XLASB is very very powerful, but IMO both ASBs and AARs should be a 1 per item....
It's not a marauder issue, it's a module issue.
To those saying that the Golem shouldn't get TP bonus.
You're wrong... These ships are designed to snip with the bonuses. A turret boat can hit a target very effectivly with low traversal. A missile boat cannot. The TP bonus is on there specifically to balance this... Due to exp velocity issues of BS class weapons, they still have the same issues as turret boats when it comes to orbitting ships, not to mention they can outrun a missile or even the exp...I've seen missiles hit for 0 damage before... This is not an always hits situation.
The way these ships are... They can tank the world and outrange them as well. However, get under their guns and all you have to do is outlast their cap or ASB/AAR reload.. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
509
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:31:00 -
[4486] - Quote
Oh, and CCP... Assuming the tractor structure is worth a crap...
PLEASE PLEASE exchange the tractor bonus for something more effective... Maybe salvage bonus, or something cool... Maybe a new high slot modules of some sort just for Marauders. (bastion is said to not be specific to Marauders eventually) |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:44:00 -
[4487] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Maybe a new high slot modules of some sort just for Marauders. (bastion is said to not be specific to Marauders eventually)
Ye, pls give an antibastionmodule (pvp-transformodulethingy (tm)), does little but t2 resists and +15 sensor strength flat. Thx. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:51:00 -
[4488] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Just think about it this way: Say you put 2b into a Vargur. 4guns/3neuts, mid slots for MJD and dual XLASB tank, low slots 3 damage mods, DC, TE. 1b for the hull and 1b for mods. What combination of ships that costs 2b can kill you? The only thing is a massive blob of cheap T1. Basically any gang in T2 or higher ships will never be able to kill you unless they both outnumber AND out-ISK you. That's the definition of broken.
lol |

Elson Tamar
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
125
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:57:00 -
[4489] - Quote
Tractor beam bonus OP please nerf as they make my noctis under powered ;) Seriously. However could yah remove the tractor beam bonus and give us a combat bonus. Web range etc steps on recon toes, but seriously if thease are going to be the Dread stepping stone they need to act like dreads not EvE's version of Pacman. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:00:00 -
[4490] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
I do find the remote repair platform version of the Paladin posted above interesting. However, even if it did rep the same amount as 2 guardians, at what range would it do so? Also, the benefit of 2 guardians is that you only loose half your gang/fleets repair potential if you lose one of them. You can also field 2 guardians for much cheaper and the two together would have significantly more EHP between the two of them.
I'm all for collecting information about what these hulls are capable of using the current iteration numbers. However, I think we need to ensure that those numbers are representative of real-world viable fits. Otherwise all we are doing is providing a skewed picture to the devs and community that will ultimately ensure the Marauder class is subpar compared to anything else.
http://i.imgur.com/2ZZqsgg.png this is the theoretical fit. Adjust active tank by x2.5 (actually higher) and cap recharge by x1.333 to get the actual proposed values regarding bastioneffects. The vulnerabilty of guardians are both jams and scanres-damps. While that 'archon' doesn't compete with guardians fielding a 30man+ fleet (voiding the damp-argument), jams still hurt - though canceled by the bastion itself. Two Guards are reliably enough to tank a HAC-gang against an insane amount of incoming damage already, in this case, you had to bump a HAC off his marauder to kill it.
As someone mentioned capacitor warfare immunity, my trololol-alarms went off. Cause given people can't field 6-7 good dps-ships, they won't stand a chance downing that tank. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1437
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:00:00 -
[4491] - Quote
Niche ships that noone uses is 10000 times better than OP lolmobiles
I approve of this change even though i wouldn't mind further iterations (Don't bring back bonused webs and t2 res ffs) BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
516
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:06:00 -
[4492] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Niche ships that noone uses is 10000 times better than OP lolmobiles
I approve of this change even though i wouldn't mind further iterations (Don't bring back bonused webs and t2 res ffs)
indeed niche is the whole point of T2 .... webs and T2 resists are OP on these and gives too many specialisations to these ships and web bonuses creates more conflicts with pirate ships. less T2 resists on ships please .. Also TP on golem is odd and should be removed for a explosion radius bonus instead it shouldn't have an e-war bonus that should only belong on minnie e-war ships Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:10:00 -
[4493] - Quote
a reasonable trade off for the resistance problem could be found in doing the following:
bringing back tech II resistances but not full tech II. give them the same resist profile that field command ships used to get.
this will make the ships allot more viable in non-bastion mod
but the 30% bonus to all resists would make the ship way op. so remove the bonus from shield and armor and just make the 30% bonus apply to hull resistance. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:15:00 -
[4494] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:a reasonable trade off for the resistance problem could be found in doing the following: bringing back tech II resistances but not full tech II. give them the same resist profile that field command ships used to get. for an example look at the pre-boosted astarte stats on evelopedia this will make the ships allot more viable in non-bastion mod but the 30% bonus to all resists would make the ship way op (even with modified tech II resists). so remove the bonus from shield and armor and just make the 30% bonus apply to hull resistance. so now you get your psuedo tech Ii resists in either bastion or not but you get that 78% omni resist profile from bastion for hull.
that's ******* stupid |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:25:00 -
[4495] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:MeBiatch wrote:a reasonable trade off for the resistance problem could be found in doing the following: bringing back tech II resistances but not full tech II. give them the same resist profile that field command ships used to get. for an example look at the pre-boosted astarte stats on evelopedia this will make the ships allot more viable in non-bastion mod but the 30% bonus to all resists would make the ship way op (even with modified tech II resists). so remove the bonus from shield and armor and just make the 30% bonus apply to hull resistance. so now you get your psuedo tech Ii resists in either bastion or not but you get that 78% omni resist profile from bastion for hull. that's ******* stupid
care to explain why other then acting like a ******? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
261
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:35:00 -
[4496] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:MeBiatch wrote:a reasonable trade off for the resistance problem could be found in doing the following: bringing back tech II resistances but not full tech II. give them the same resist profile that field command ships used to get. for an example look at the pre-boosted astarte stats on evelopedia this will make the ships allot more viable in non-bastion mod but the 30% bonus to all resists would make the ship way op (even with modified tech II resists). so remove the bonus from shield and armor and just make the 30% bonus apply to hull resistance. so now you get your psuedo tech Ii resists in either bastion or not but you get that 78% omni resist profile from bastion for hull. that's ******* stupid care to explain why other then acting like a ******?
you basically gave it the worst of both worlds and you can't even see what the hell is wrong with your idea? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:45:00 -
[4497] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:
you basically gave it the worst of both worlds and you can't even see what the hell is wrong with your idea?
not really the field command ship resist profile is much better then the current maruader resists. so that a big plus one for it being outside of bastion mode.
but when its in bastion mode that extra 30% unstacked resits coupled with FCS resists would be way way to high. so i see this as a reasonable compromise.
you may see it as worst of both worlds but i see it was best of both.
its a good thing we are both entitled to our opinions.
personally i am rather happy with the way maraders are proposed in the op. but there are those who are rather upset to see the full tech II resists go away because that means they hurt outside of bastion mode. what i am trying to propose is meeting half way. giving the ships decent resists outside of bastion while still giving it some boost inside.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Zolian
Murderous Impulse
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:53:00 -
[4498] - Quote
In three weeks the best you could come up with is to revert to the first iteration. This is immensely disappointing.
All marauders really needed was an increase in fittings and sensor strength. None of this gimmicky bastion garbage, certainly not at the cost of drones and speed. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:06:00 -
[4499] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:
you basically gave it the worst of both worlds and you can't even see what the hell is wrong with your idea?
not really the field command ship resist profile is much better then the current maruader resists. so that a big plus one for it being outside of bastion mode. but when its in bastion mode that extra 30% unstacked resits coupled with FCS resists would be way way to high. so i see this as a reasonable compromise. you may see it as worst of both worlds but i see it was best of both. its a good thing we are both entitled to our opinions. personally i am rather happy with the way maraders are proposed in the op. but there are those who are rather upset to see the full tech II resists go away because that means they hurt outside of bastion mode. what i am trying to propose is meeting half way. giving the ships decent resists outside of bastion while still giving it some boost inside. Depends on the application really, they aren't any worse than now tank wise for buffer tanking, which, with a partial resist increase we likely won't make back since it seems the options are rep or resists. with full T2 we selectively make it back and with part T2 + bastion resists in hull only it means that the defensive layer you really never want touched is the only layer augmented. Unless you are doing something really wrong it's never going to be used thus it would become a new contender for most useless bonus along side the tractor beam range bonus. |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:09:00 -
[4500] - Quote
Could CCP update the original post to show the current proposed changes please. Or just have a new thread like one stated if a version is going live on test server. Either way, if having to choose between two or three variations of proposed changes; it would be nice to have all of them laid out in full detail in the same post for comparison. Just a suggestion.
Interesting update. I am not excited either way. I loath sit and shoot.
I think these proposed changes should have been released A LONG TIME AGO. This short release makes me think one of two things: you either made up your mind that these changes were going through (bastion module/mode) regardless of what your players think; or that you have spent VERY LITTLE time and resources on this change (kind of like one procrastinated and maybe marauders were the last on the list to try to squeeze in amidst the other changes for the winter expansion).
Not knowing if the intent was to make this class role sit and shoot and/or snipe makes me frustrated. If you want to have very specific roles for T2 battleships then do you plan on making a T2 variant of each races other battleship hull? This would make sense having 3 roles for the 3 different battleship T2 hull variations. Maybe less players would take offense to the specialization of the marauder's role if they knew there was another T2 battleship yet to come that could/would fit their play style. |
|

STush T
Capital Sin
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:18:00 -
[4501] - Quote
I think its safe to say that we can all stop voicing our concerns/venting because CCP has already said that A, they didnt read what we wrote B, they're not going to read any more of what we write in this thread. So If you cant change anything, then all you can do is join me in a "wait and see" attitude.
|

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:25:00 -
[4502] - Quote
I currently own 3 marauders and am actually decently happy with their current performance.
What really annoys me about these changes is that CCP is making one of the biggest mistakes a developer can make : if you want players to change their playstyle, you incentivise them to make the change. You don't push them to make the change by adding penalties to the current iteration that can only be removed by utilising the new modules.
For example, if you want to encourage MJD use with Marauders, then just add the MJD bonus as it is. Why nerf speed and mass? I don't see the point. All you manage to achieve is to make a subset of your players ***** and swear every time they are "forced" to MJD because you nerfed their speed. If they are still not using MJD with the bonus, then it obviously means that the MJD gimmick is not worth using because it's too much trouble. You could further ENCOURAGE people to use MJD if you really want them to by making a range-selectable MJD that can only be used on Marauders (like Covert Ops cloaks). This idea has already been proposed by many, and will get you the same effect of people using MJD on Marauders without pissing people off.
Likewise with Bastion, it was aggravating that the local rep bonus was removed to push people to use Bastion. If you do that, then everytime people go into Bastion they won't be thinking "wow this is cool". They will be thinking "dammit now I'm forced to be stationary to tank the same as I could before". For those people who think T2 resists will help, take a look at the Paladin. Paladin often fights NPCs which do EM/Thermal, since you know it's a laser boat. And the T2 resists have the exact same armor EM/Thermal resist as the live version... If the concern is that local repping is OP in Bastion, then the obvious response is to tune the repping bonus in Bastion.
I'm happy to hear that the dev team has listened to some feedback and gone back to Iteration 1. But I would hope that you keep this in mind when you consider further changes. Don't go the route of F2P developers who first burden you with limited bag space, then provide you with "bag upgrades" to remedy the situation. In the same way, don't nerf the hull to uselessness just to push people to MJD/Bastion/whatever other stuff you come up with. The new features should be attractive by themselves, otherwise they should not be implemented. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
163
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:28:00 -
[4503] - Quote
Oh well time to sell my marauders then, I didn't want that marauder 5 anyway.
Is it really that much to ask to simply address the issues that I have pointed out multiple times in this thread instead of making them all basically useless for people that used them for what they where made for? Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1308
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:35:00 -
[4504] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Depends on the application really, they aren't any worse than now tank wise for buffer tanking, which, with a partial resist increase we likely won't make back since it seems the options are rep or resists. with full T2 we selectively make it back and with part T2 + bastion resists in hull only it means that the defensive layer you really never want touched is the only layer augmented. Unless you are doing something really wrong it's never going to be used thus it would become a new contender for most useless bonus along side the tractor beam range bonus.
the use i was seing for the hull resistance was for when reloading your aar or asb, at that point you usually start to bleed into hull. so for me the 78% vrs 60% could mean getting that extra reload.
i will admit that the reduced tech II resist profile while using the bastion mod is not as good as the proposed 30% all round. but it does do one key thing and that is increased resistances outside of bastion mode. to which i think would add to utility and give you more options on how to pilot the ship.
moreover is bringing the shield and armor resist bonus to 0% on the bastion is too much you could always give it the same bonus for a DCU II. that would balance out the missing resist from the reduced Tech II profile. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:37:00 -
[4505] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Oh well time to sell my marauders then, I didn't want that marauder 5 anyway.
Is it really that much to ask to simply address the issues that I have pointed out multiple times in this thread instead of making them all basically useless for people that used them for what they where made for?
What were they "made for," exactly? They're better at everything now except possibly l4 missions, and even there I think immunity to TDs, damps, and jams makes up for the DPS loss from losing drones. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:54:00 -
[4506] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Oh well time to sell my marauders then, I didn't want that marauder 5 anyway.
Is it really that much to ask to simply address the issues that I have pointed out multiple times in this thread instead of making them all basically useless for people that used them for what they where made for? Weren't they made for PvE? In my mind while this doesn't give it as a handout this actually dues increase their capacity in that regard through some creative means. I suppose we could tun them into navy BS's with rep bonuses and less ammo consumption, but that sounds boring IMHO. |

Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
211
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:58:00 -
[4507] - Quote
so.. golem tp bonus or no? it you guys remove it then well.. then it is useless in pvp as far as i am concerned. the tp bonus was its ONE saving grace. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
517
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:08:00 -
[4508] - Quote
Lady Naween wrote:so.. golem tp bonus or no? it you guys remove it then well.. then it is useless in pvp as far as i am concerned. the tp bonus was its ONE saving grace.
replace it with a 7.5% explosion radius bonus and you end up with pretty much the same result but with an extra mid slot free. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
163
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:10:00 -
[4509] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: What were they "made for," exactly?
PVE like:
WH(where you are better off with better RR capability's instead billion isk in mods and imps for active tanking and the shield marauders could be awesome if they also offer that) L4, L5(where you want gank and speed, tank is no concern at all) Incs(where the utility high slots come into play and the paladin is one of the best options till the nerf and the bastion mod is completely useless) Plexing in Low Sec(where you want to utilize speed and gank to get in and out as quick as possible)
Xequecal wrote:They're better at everything now except possibly l4 missions, and even there I think immunity to TDs, damps, and jams makes up for the DPS loss from losing drones.
They become good at nothing with this changes, they are slow and lose a lot of dps and you don't make up the dps loss with the EW immunity, at least if you have played PVE only mildly serious(like multi boxing it, since all EW mechanics are just build to handicap one single ship and are completely meaningless with more on grid most of the time). On the other hand the speed, dps and web changes make them straight inferior to pirate hulls and remove most of the reasons to consider them as good option for some applications, even with all her flaws(that don't even get remotely addressed at all, even if I did point them out multiple times) at her current state.
Harvey James wrote:Lady Naween wrote:so.. golem tp bonus or no? it you guys remove it then well.. then it is useless in pvp as far as i am concerned. the tp bonus was its ONE saving grace. replace it with a 7.5% explosion radius bonus and you end up with pretty much the same result but with an extra mid slot free.
Since you can't do the math the painter bonus is miles more useful than a explosion radius bonus would be, that counts double with the changes to the cycle time, since 2 painters give you the same result(even a lot better one you use domination ones with gang link mods) while also improving dps with your sentry's at the same time or for the hole fleet if you do something like Incs with them. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Galdrak
Interplanetary Trade Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:17:00 -
[4510] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.
Thanks for your time.
did everyone catch that? pirate battleships are going to be nerfed with the mac being first on the list. personally i love the frigate like speed that my mac does, shame that in this universe progress here is going backwards not forwards like progress should, i see their logic -make a ship bad and then make everything else a little worse and call it rebalance.
research and development is supposed to make what we have better, not worse. come on guys this sucks on my levels.
expansion?? more like contraction. |
|

Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
211
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:19:00 -
[4511] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Lady Naween wrote:so.. golem tp bonus or no? it you guys remove it then well.. then it is useless in pvp as far as i am concerned. the tp bonus was its ONE saving grace. replace it with a 7.5% explosion radius bonus and you end up with pretty much the same result but with an extra mid slot free.
nope. not even close. as the radius bonus wouldnt help the fleet |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
517
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:19:00 -
[4512] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Xequecal wrote: What were they "made for," exactly?
PVE like: WH(where you are better off with better RR capability's instead billion isk in mods and imps for active tanking and the shield marauders could be awesome if they also offer that) L4, L5(where you want gank and speed, tank is no concern at all) Incs(where the utility high slots come into play and the paladin is one of the best options till the nerf and the bastion mod is completely useless) Plexing in Low Sec(where you want to utilize speed and gank to get in and out as quick as possible) Xequecal wrote:They're better at everything now except possibly l4 missions, and even there I think immunity to TDs, damps, and jams makes up for the DPS loss from losing drones. They become good at nothing with this changes, they are slow and lose a lot of dps and you don't make up the dps loss with the EW immunity, at least if you have played PVE only mildly serious(like multi boxing it, since all EW mechanics are just build to handicap one single ship and are completely meaningless with more on grid most of the time). On the other hand the speed, dps and web changes make them straight inferior to pirate hulls and remove most of the reasons to consider them as good option for some applications, even with all her flaws(that don't even get remotely addressed at all, even if I did point them out multiple times) at her current state. Harvey James wrote:Lady Naween wrote:so.. golem tp bonus or no? it you guys remove it then well.. then it is useless in pvp as far as i am concerned. the tp bonus was its ONE saving grace. replace it with a 7.5% explosion radius bonus and you end up with pretty much the same result but with an extra mid slot free. Since you can't do the math the painter bonus is miles more useful than a explosion radius bonus would be, that counts double with the changes to the cycle time, since 2 painters give you the same result(even a lot better one you use domination ones with gang link mods) while also improving dps with your sentry's at the same time or for the hole fleet if you do something like Incs with them.
yes i can do the math don't be so rude ....but the TP bonus shouldn't be on these non e-war ships as much as webs shouldn't and they have been removed leaving it on is odd and its out of place and OP on this type of ship and not everyone wants to use up mid slots for TP's Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Zeus Maximo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
471
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:24:00 -
[4513] - Quote
Yet to see how these changes benefit PVP. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:34:00 -
[4514] - Quote
The Djego wrote:PVE like:
WH(where you are better off with better RR capability's instead billion isk in mods and imps for active tanking and the shield marauders could be awesome if they also offer that) L4, L5(where you want gank and speed, tank is no concern at all) Incs(where the utility high slots come into play and the paladin is one of the best options till the nerf and the bastion mod is completely useless) Plexing in Low Sec(where you want to utilize speed and gank to get in and out as quick as possible)
The optimal bonus means you don't need speed to chase ships down and MJD lets you reach any acceleration gate in two jumps. Unless you're clearing pockets faster than 3 minutes you're not going to lose time here. Paladin shoots to 40km optimal with conflag! You don't beat that with a Machariel. Machariel shoots in falloff and loses dps. Oh, and it's getting nerfed.
Why would you possibly need billion ISK mods for tank? The tank is so ridiculously strong you can run C4 sites with a pure T2 fit, with 3 heatsinks and 3 tracking computers. I've never done L5s personally but I bet that's similar. Is the hull expensive? Sure. Still, I'd rather lose a 1.2b Marauder than a 800m T3 and 210,745 skillpoints. Like I said, 40km optimal with conflag. You can burn down sleeper battleships in <1min with that DPS, and you can tractor in the wreck and salvage it while you're shooting the next one. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:37:00 -
[4515] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:
yes i can do the math don't be so rude ....but the TP bonus shouldn't be on these non e-war ships as much as webs shouldn't and they have been removed leaving it on is odd and its out of place and OP on this type of ship and not everyone wants to use up mid slots for TP's
While I apologize for being rude, the painter bonus is just more useful overall(it got the better effect on the target, it benefits more weapons, more ships etc.). If you don't use 2-3 painters on any kind of missile BS you just gimp your dps output, it is not even a option in my eyes to fly without them.
Marauders have the EW bonuses to do PVE effective and fast. I know not a single post in the last 7 years where only a single person claimed the EW bonuses on marauders where OP(for what use whatsoever).
A Golem without the painter bonus would be a lot worse, the Kronos and Paladin without the web bonus lose tons of potential for the people that utilized the bonuses in pve to actually pve with them more efficient. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Abla Tive
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:38:00 -
[4516] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: .. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, ..
Thanks kindly. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
509
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:43:00 -
[4517] - Quote
I personally believe that iteration 1 is going to make them AWESOME for solo PVE.
They will be perfect for anoms, and even better in WH space where they currently stand no chance.
It actually does less to boost lvl 4 missioning than any other type of solo PVE.
Those complaining about their fleet capabilities... Well, these aren't designed for fleets. Every other ship in game is designed with fleets in mind, apart from say... maybe a specific layout of each SC...
I personally like this... If i want to join a fleet, I'll just hop in my nightmare, Raven, RNI, SNI, Drake, Tengu, Mega, Abaddon, Armageddon, ect. ect. ect.... |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:51:00 -
[4518] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Merci mon ami!
A Pally without it's rep bonus would have been a very sad thing.
Your first design was bold and daring, please stick to it this time. (there will be croissants au fromage for you if you do) |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1309
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:52:00 -
[4519] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
A Golem without the painter bonus would be a lot worse, the Kronos and Paladin without the web bonus lose tons of potential for the people that utilized the bonuses in pve to actually pve with them more efficient.
typically the pve i usually do is annoms/ratting/missions and in all three occasions i usually get to a certain range and i just blap the frigs. plus the mjd give me the ability to keep range. not sure why i would need to web bonus tbh.
though i can see for wh and incusions you are not just blapping the frigs... so i can see the loss of web bonus would hurt the kronos if thats the type of pve you do.
then again i guess one ship is not meant to be good at all forms of pvp and niether should one be good for all forms of pvp. is there not ships like the vindi that can be used for your purpose? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:54:00 -
[4520] - Quote
I trained myself for my Vargur in the past just for PvE. I have been using it for my PvE stuff. I will be using it for PvE stuff.
The latest iteration seems good for pve purpose (since all marauder pilots here trained it for pve). It is important to not forget that these ships are specialized for PvE purposes. Those who want to do PvP with this should go to capital ships instead @ same price tag. You don't want to see your 2B ship going into dust within 10 seconds. Since your killmaill will be much attractive and painless than a cap ship, you will always be primaried in pvp.
What about that useless tractor beam bonus if we are getting a structure WHO does the same job of T.Beam?
|
|

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
106
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:00:00 -
[4521] - Quote
Why start again with the screwed up skill requirements, making a pure science skill a requisite for a combat module, after you just untangled the skilltree? |

Project XXVIII
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:01:00 -
[4522] - Quote
Now the countdown to see these new modules on SiSi.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:10:00 -
[4523] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Why start again with the screwed up skill requirements, making a pure science skill a requisite for a combat module, after you just untangled the skilltree?
Perhaps this module should fall under the catagory of hull tanking modules.
Sure, it effects more than just the hull tanking capability, but it effects the entire hull of the fitted ship. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:18:00 -
[4524] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: The optimal bonus means you don't need speed to chase ships down and MJD lets you reach any acceleration gate in two jumps. Unless you're clearing pockets faster than 3 minutes you're not going to lose time here. Paladin shoots to 40km optimal with conflag! You don't beat that with a Machariel. Machariel shoots in falloff and loses dps. Oh, and it's getting nerfed.
I even fit a MWD on my Navy Apoc that already got the optimal bonus, just to speed things up. Also it is 30km not 40km with conflag, with optimal ranges on popper fitted amarr ships(like the navy apoc, the only way to archive more is becoming competently static what is bad most of the time). You also never hit the gate in jump range with a mjd(have you ever tried it ingame?), a mwd is the better option(tested and used by me because of producing better results). Also I actually do group pve where machs are considered as sub par dps hulls and not used at all, this gangs completely consists out of marauders that combine extreme high dps and high optimal with 90% webs(read paladins).
Xequecal wrote:Why would you possibly need billion ISK mods for tank? The tank is so ridiculously strong you can run C4 sites with a pure T2 fit, with 3 heatsinks and 3 tracking computers. I've never done L5s personally but I bet that's similar. Is the hull expensive? Sure. Still, I'd rather lose a 1.2b Marauder than a 800m T3 and 210,745 skillpoints. Like I said, 40km optimal with conflag. You can burn down sleeper battleships in <1min with that DPS, and you can tractor in the wreck and salvage it while you're shooting the next one.
For C4 multi boxing 2 marauders and 1 Logi is miles better, for the simply reason that you relay on RR and cap chaining and you actually can fix max gank. C4 require about 1.3k halve way sustainable tank on a marauder(I know that because I have been there done it and a BS sized sig lets you take a heck more damage) and this is not archive able with plain T2 mods without gimping your fitting. L5 throw up to 2.5k dps at you, the key is to have a marauder+logi for cap/rr and ignore the neuting, since the neut towers are often re spawn triggers. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Merciful Deletion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:21:00 -
[4525] - Quote
It should simply be Advanced Weapons Upgrades V ... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
242
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:30:00 -
[4526] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now... Yay! Can you please revisit the slot assignment and assign an extra medium instead of a high? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:41:00 -
[4527] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: typically the pve i usually do is annoms/ratting/missions and in all three occasions i usually get to a certain range and i just blap the frigs. plus the mjd give me the ability to keep range. not sure why i would need to web bonus tbh.
though i can see for wh and incusions you are not just blapping the frigs... so i can see the loss of web bonus would hurt the kronos if thats the type of pve you do.
then again i guess one ship is not meant to be good at all forms of pvp and niether should one be good for all forms of pve. is there not ships like the vindi that can be used for your purpose?
First there are lots of situations where you can't catch every frig before it gets to close(depending on the mission/anno ofc). I don't use light drones for L4(same thing goes for Incs), you use full sentry sets, web a frig down and blap it with a close range fitted turret hull, everything else is a massive wast of time and dps. It also helps against other targets at close to keep both turret and sentry dps up. For ratting, annos and missions you want max gank and speed instead(and will use a pirate BS after the changes)
I don't want to use the Vindicator(since it got a **** cap, no utility and is locked between sub par range and sub par dps) and I see no good reason why my marauders should be a lot worse for Incs just to revive useless tank and mjd bonuses that are completely useless in pve 99% of the time.
As the changes are, I would like to see that CCP makes a 2. set of marauders, leave the current ones alone(still unfixed but better than what is planed), introduce a 2. set with new names and the stats and look in 6 months how many people still use the low dps bricks with the gimic features. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

sten mattson
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:47:00 -
[4528] - Quote
what i find weird is that you already boost the paladin's capacitor by ~40% (2375/5625) but still you keep the godawful capacitor amount bonus. Please replace it with a tracking bonus so it comes inline with all the other marauders.
Paladin: capacitor amount bonus Dmg + optimal range bonus Armor boost bonus
Golem: missile velocity + explosion velocity + TP effectiveness bonus Shield boost bonus
Kronos: Dmg + falloff + tracking bonus Armor boost bonus
Vargur: RoF + falloff + tracking bonus Shield boost bonus
All marauders have a range + tracking + damage or rof + a tanking bonus save for the paladin that has only a range and dmg bonus, but no tracking bonus on a ship that tracks already horribly compared to other weapon systems. The only compensating factor to this before the rebalance was the web velocity factor bonus , but it has been stripped away.
The golem gets no damage bonus , but it gets a double damage application bonus (yes TP effectivenes can be counted as a dmg application bonus), wich is another pet peeve of mine
IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:53:00 -
[4529] - Quote
The Djego wrote:I even fit a MWD on my Navy Apoc that already got the optimal bonus, just to speed things up. Also it is 30km not 40km with conflag, with optimal ranges on popper fitted amarr ships(like the navy apoc, the only way to archive more is becoming competently static what is bad most of the time). You also never hit the gate in jump range with a mjd(have you ever tried it ingame?), a mwd is the better option(tested and used by me because of producing better results). Also I actually do group pve where machs are considered as sub par dps hulls and not used at all, this gangs completely consists out of marauders that combine extreme high dps and high optimal with 90% webs(read paladins).
The bastion module increases range. Also I can't possibly understand why being static is so bad, in incursions maybe, but in missions? Nothing in missions orbits past 45km so you only have to deal with rats being far away from the entry point, and MJD fixes that right up. And yes I have used MJD to jump to gates, two jumps gets you to any gate. It's hard to get it exactly perfect because you're estimating the angle but the acceleration gate radius is so big I can always land within 5km.
Note that the bastion Marauders might completely remove the need for logi at all in incursions, cap booster fits can local tank full site aggro on them and still have very high DPS.
Quote:For C4 multi boxing 2 marauders and 1 Logi is miles better, for the simply reason that you relay on RR and cap chaining and you actually can fit max gank. C4 require about 1.3k halve way sustainable tank on a marauder(I know that because I have been there done it and a BS sized sig lets you take a heck more damage) and this is not archive able with plain T2 mods without gimping your fitting. L5 throw up to 2.5k dps at you, the key is to have a marauder+logi for cap/rr and ignore the neuting, since the neut towers are often re spawn triggers.
The new Paladin tanks 1200 omni-DPS in bastion with 1 repper, 2 EANM, and a nano pump rig. There's nothing preventing you from fitting max gank. It has 12,500 base capacitor, there's plenty of neut buffer since all you're running is 4 guns and 1 repper.
As for C5s.....was the 90% web somehow essential for running those? Because the 50m3 drone bay sure isn't the difference between amazing and useless in w-space where drones get popped really quickly. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:58:00 -
[4530] - Quote
Quote: The new Paladin tanks 1200 omni-DPS in bastion with 1 repper, 2 EANM, and a nano pump rig. There's nothing preventing you from fitting max gank. It has 12,500 base capacitor, there's plenty of neut buffer since all you're running is 4 guns and 1 repper.
As for C5s.....was the 90% web somehow essential for running those? Because the 50m3 drone bay sure isn't the difference between amazing and useless in w-space where drones get popped really quickly.
While that's not low tank, it seems kinda low considering bastion.
It that a perma tank with standard large rep or what?
Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x. Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still...
I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists... |
|

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:58:00 -
[4531] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Yet to see how these changes benefit PVP.
They don't.
These changes barely benefit Marauders. If anything, they're zero-sum: where improvements were made, other areas were nerfed. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:03:00 -
[4532] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Yet to see how these changes benefit PVP. They don't. These changes barely benefit Marauders. If anything, they're zero-sum: where improvements were made, other areas were nerfed.
Base hulls were nerfed unnecessarily, but there's no way that anyone can honestly say that marauders will be worse after iteration 1 than they are now....
Marauders are currently the least used ships in pve, even amongst high SP players.
Sure, this change won't go directly towards pvp, but it helps... At least they'll have some pvp capability. On live right now, the only pvp capability they actually have is A.T.... |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:05:00 -
[4533] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Quote: The new Paladin tanks 1200 omni-DPS in bastion with 1 repper, 2 EANM, and a nano pump rig. There's nothing preventing you from fitting max gank. It has 12,500 base capacitor, there's plenty of neut buffer since all you're running is 4 guns and 1 repper.
As for C5s.....was the 90% web somehow essential for running those? Because the 50m3 drone bay sure isn't the difference between amazing and useless in w-space where drones get popped really quickly.
While that's not low tank, it seems kinda low considering bastion. It that a perma tank with standard large rep or what? Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x. Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still... I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists... Bastion should turn a 400dps sustained omni tank (which I run with T1 mods when feeling lazy) into a little under 1150dps tank. I don't know what their burst is, but I'm willing to bet that's the sustained number, on an armor ship as well. |

Typhu5
Black Innocence
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:13:00 -
[4534] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
I like this version more. Repair bonus is much better on these ships and if someone wants to use a web, he can still use it, just not with any bonus. And like you said, to kill frigs or drones, your ship has drones. A web bonus looks for me more like "You get a web bonus... now use that damn thing".
So plz. Go with this first version. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:14:00 -
[4535] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bastion should turn a 400dps sustained omni tank (which I run with T1 mods when feeling lazy) into a little under 1150dps tank. I don't know what their burst is, but I'm willing to bet that's the sustained number, on an armor ship as well.
There's no way that bastion only provides a 400 dps buff in omni tank.
My nightmare fit has almost 700 dps at its weakest when omni fitted. However, it receives no rep or resists...
So, hull bonus means 37.5% higher... Bastion is 100% higher, and with more resists.
We're talking easily 1500 dps tank at its weakest on my golem fit. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:20:00 -
[4536] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bastion should turn a 400dps sustained omni tank (which I run with T1 mods when feeling lazy) into a little under 1150dps tank. I don't know what their burst is, but I'm willing to bet that's the sustained number, on an armor ship as well. There's no way that bastion only provides a 400 dps buff in omni tank. My nightmare fit has almost 700 dps at its weakest when omni fitted. However, it receives no rep or resists... So, hull bonus means 37.5% higher... Bastion is 100% higher, and with more resists. We're talking easily 1500 dps tank at its weakest on my golem fit. Not sure where you got a 400dps increase, the example above was a 750dps increase FROM a 400dps omni. My math comes to a ~185% increase in tank (if correct) compared to current, so apply that to whatever your current tank is.
This was based on my paladin so the 30% (I'm only at marauder IV) was already included. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:20:00 -
[4537] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bastion should turn a 400dps sustained omni tank (which I run with T1 mods when feeling lazy) into a little under 1150dps tank. I don't know what their burst is, but I'm willing to bet that's the sustained number, on an armor ship as well. There's no way that bastion only provides a 400 dps buff in omni tank. My nightmare fit has almost 700 dps at its weakest when omni fitted. However, it receives no rep or resists... So, hull bonus means 37.5% higher... Bastion is 100% higher, and with more resists. We're talking easily 1500 dps tank at its weakest on my golem fit.
Read it again. It turns a 400 dps tank into a 1150 dps tank, aka it triples the amount of DPS you can tank. I'm not sure why you brought up a Pith-X XLSB, that module is equivalent to 1.7 Centus-X LARs, it's got no relevance when I was talking about a single-LARII tank. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
164
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:30:00 -
[4538] - Quote
The jump range of a acceleration gate is 2500m, again pls try it before you suggest it. You want to move around in most L4 missions, because it increases the dps, you don't want to MJD around because it deceases applied dps. The cap is not enough to run tachs and active tank under neuts, I even use a med rep for L4, since the large one doesn't add much tank by the rather limited runtime(also for fitting reasons).
Active tanked marauders would be horrible for Incs because it gimps the dps and utility(both armor and shield marauders can one slot tank VGs). Logis can also add a lot of tracking/range to the fleet and beyond VGs the tank is not sufficient to keep you alive(nor is the static game play useful for assaults or bigger sites since they contain movement for all ships and you can't mjd yourself out of logi range).
I never used active armor tank rigs on any marauder because of the high calibration cost. You throw away the opportunity to capitalize T2 damage rigs and you need to be on cap booster live support(what is terrible in WHs). RR and extra cap with a logi is just a lot more effective(again all the changes are completely useless in RR environments). Also you want to use sentry's, not light drones, not because light drones can pop(what they do from time to time, if you actually use some) but because light drones vs frigs is horrible ineffective compared to utilizing 90% webbing.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:37:00 -
[4539] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bastion should turn a 400dps sustained omni tank (which I run with T1 mods when feeling lazy) into a little under 1150dps tank. I don't know what their burst is, but I'm willing to bet that's the sustained number, on an armor ship as well. There's no way that bastion only provides a 400 dps buff in omni tank. My nightmare fit has almost 700 dps at its weakest when omni fitted. However, it receives no rep or resists... So, hull bonus means 37.5% higher... Bastion is 100% higher, and with more resists. We're talking easily 1500 dps tank at its weakest on my golem fit. Read it again. It turns a 400 dps tank into a 1150 dps tank, aka it triples the amount of DPS you can tank. I'm not sure why you brought up a Pith-X XLSB, that module is equivalent to 1.7 Centus-X LARs, it's got no relevance when I was talking about a single-LARII tank.
Yeah... got ya... sorry guys.. misread/misunderstood.
That said, my current Golem fit will go from (assuming the 185% increase is fairly accurate) from 960 at its weakest resist, to 2736.. However, are you saying 185% above what I get in my Golem now, or are you saying 185% increase over a base tank with no bonuses?
|

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:38:00 -
[4540] - Quote
There was a lot of fuss and crying about the first iteration, although it is a neat new toy. CCP wanted to get most of us to see how cool it was, but had to find a way to do so. Enter the terrible, terrible things they said they might do.
I like the little joke here. I can't find a link right now but I remember the story from high school about Caesar's marching orders. He needed his troops to march 1.5x (let x be their original speed) so he ordered them to march 2x for awhile. This was so they would love him when he let them slow down to 1.5x, instead of just despising him for ordering them to march 1.5x in the first place. Caesar expansion, Caesar mind game. Alea iacta est.
Nicely done CCP. I mean it.
Edit: Auto-correct was incorrect |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:40:00 -
[4541] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bastion should turn a 400dps sustained omni tank (which I run with T1 mods when feeling lazy) into a little under 1150dps tank. I don't know what their burst is, but I'm willing to bet that's the sustained number, on an armor ship as well. There's no way that bastion only provides a 400 dps buff in omni tank. My nightmare fit has almost 700 dps at its weakest when omni fitted. However, it receives no rep or resists... So, hull bonus means 37.5% higher... Bastion is 100% higher, and with more resists. We're talking easily 1500 dps tank at its weakest on my golem fit. Read it again. It turns a 400 dps tank into a 1150 dps tank, aka it triples the amount of DPS you can tank. I'm not sure why you brought up a Pith-X XLSB, that module is equivalent to 1.7 Centus-X LARs, it's got no relevance when I was talking about a single-LARII tank. Yeah... got ya... sorry guys.. misread/misunderstood. That said, my current Golem fit will go from (assuming the 185% increase is fairly accurate) from 960 at its weakest resist, to 2736.. However, are you saying 185% above what I get in my Golem now, or are you saying 185% increase over a base tank with no bonuses? 185% over current Golem fitting now. |

Zeus Maximo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
471
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:47:00 -
[4542] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Yet to see how these changes benefit PVP. They don't. These changes barely benefit Marauders. If anything, they're zero-sum: where improvements were made, other areas were nerfed. Base hulls were nerfed unnecessarily, but there's no way that anyone can honestly say that marauders will be worse after iteration 1 than they are now.... Marauders are currently the least used ships in pve, even amongst high SP players. Sure, this change won't go directly towards pvp, but it helps... At least they'll have some pvp capability. On live right now, the only pvp capability they actually have is A.T....
Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now.
There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:49:00 -
[4543] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Yet to see how these changes benefit PVP. They don't. These changes barely benefit Marauders. If anything, they're zero-sum: where improvements were made, other areas were nerfed. Base hulls were nerfed unnecessarily, but there's no way that anyone can honestly say that marauders will be worse after iteration 1 than they are now.... Marauders are currently the least used ships in pve, even amongst high SP players. Sure, this change won't go directly towards pvp, but it helps... At least they'll have some pvp capability. On live right now, the only pvp capability they actually have is A.T.... Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now. There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move. If blasters needed a 90% web then the mega was useless to begin with, so why would you go to it? |

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 00:20:00 -
[4544] - Quote
While I do like iteration 1 over iteration 2, I found many of the ideas presented in this thread to be better. The biggest thing I don't like is the loss of already terrible damage - CCP has to be completely ignoring the stats on their rebalanced t1 battleships (as per my previous post) to justify reducing the already bad damage output that Marauders can field. People have babbled on here a lot about how higher damage projection means higher damage, but anyone who has flown a Maelstrom knows that it regularly lands shots with 1400mm *higher* than it's rated alpha striking potential - that's perfect projection, and more projection ability on a marauder isn't going to change the fact that, post-change, a Vargur will only field 1148 Maximum DPS with Faction Ammunition and Damage Mods while a Maelstrom fields 1251 with t2 damage mods.
125-150m3 drone bays with 100-125 bandwidth would allow some sentry or heavy drones to be fit, complimenting the stationary-inducing bastion module, not imposing too much on pirate faction BS territory in incursions (even if sentries became meta in incursions, PFBS would still out-dps marauders), allow a few options for fittings without any significant role modification (no drone bonuses), and appropriately balance marauder damage output with t1 battleships.
I suppose I'll stop posting now. There has been a heck of a lot of effort put forth by the playerbase in this thread - but it seems absolutely none of it has been taken into consideration in this "final" option. I don't intend to sound offensive here CCP, but I honestly do not know if any of our feedback was even read.
|

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 00:26:00 -
[4545] - Quote
I lied, I'm posting. Sorry. Just had to.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote:Yet to see how these changes benefit PVP. They don't. These changes barely benefit Marauders. If anything, they're zero-sum: where improvements were made, other areas were nerfed. Base hulls were nerfed unnecessarily, but there's no way that anyone can honestly say that marauders will be worse after iteration 1 than they are now.... Marauders are currently the least used ships in pve, even amongst high SP players. Sure, this change won't go directly towards pvp, but it helps... At least they'll have some pvp capability. On live right now, the only pvp capability they actually have is A.T.... Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now. There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move. If blasters needed a 90% web then the mega was useless to begin with, so why would you go to it?
I assume it's because the mega gets the same tracking bonus, has a larger drone bay and bandwidth, and you can buy ten hulls for the cost of one kronos?
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
748
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:53:00 -
[4546] - Quote
Vrykolakasis wrote:I lied, I'm posting. Sorry. Just had to. Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now.
There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move.
If blasters needed a 90% web then the mega was useless to begin with, so why would you go to it? I assume it's because the mega gets the same tracking bonus, has a larger drone bay and bandwidth, and you can buy ten hulls for the cost of one kronos? According to his logic the blasters still won't work so you would just lose 10 hulls for the cost of one. If drones are the deciding factor why not sidestep the whole blaster thing and get a domi. And since the Vindicator does and still will continue to do the job better for not too much more, why shoehorn the kronos into the same role. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:19:00 -
[4547] - Quote
I still think the bastion module should have a dps boost. I also think that people are underestimating what uses a 60 sec mjd will do for staying mobile.
I really can't wait to try one out on the test server, though. I do remember all the naysayers on the CNR and how it would suck after the changes, so lets give these a go then provide some real feedback! |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
512
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:25:00 -
[4548] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vrykolakasis wrote:I lied, I'm posting. Sorry. Just had to. Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zeus Maximo wrote: Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now.
There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move.
If blasters needed a 90% web then the mega was useless to begin with, so why would you go to it? I assume it's because the mega gets the same tracking bonus, has a larger drone bay and bandwidth, and you can buy ten hulls for the cost of one kronos? According to his logic the blasters still won't work so you would just lose 10 hulls for the cost of one. If drones are the deciding factor why not sidestep the whole blaster thing and get a domi. And since the Vindicator does and still will continue to do the job better for not too much more, why shoehorn the kronos into the same role.
I wonder if making the Kronos drone focused would be OP?
I mean, it's often considered that drones are the best thing gallente have going for them, and they're considered one of the better setups for pve.
What if instead of rails on the Kronos, it was given the ability to fit drone control units? It would get less than a 100% damage bonus to keep it in line and would only field 8-10 drones.
I mean,now that it's going to be ewar immune in bastion, it's not like drones would give it a distinct advantage over the other hulls. You could focus the bonuses on sentries, so it wouldn't be bonused for smaller drones...
I wonder how it would work out? Even if it was slightly more powerful, drones are also a lot more skill intensive than weapon modules...
It would definitely spice things up a bit. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
512
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:36:00 -
[4549] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:I still think the bastion module should have a dps boost. I also think that people are underestimating what uses a 60 sec mjd will do for staying mobile.
I really can't wait to try one out on the test server, though. I do remember all the naysayers on the CNR and how it would suck after the changes, so lets give these a go then provide some real feedback!
I don't think they should have a damage buff. In bastion they're ewar immune, will have the largest tanks of sub cap ships, 25% range increase, and they have MJD cd bonus.
Pirate should keep the damage and mobility |

STush T
Capital Sin
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:36:00 -
[4550] - Quote
I fully support a marauder that uses sentries as its dps. Although with the new tractor beam structure, and salvage drones, im not sure what would make it a marauder and not just an ordinary dominix. But if CCP could work that out, I would fly one. For missions anyway. |
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
181
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:37:00 -
[4551] - Quote
What if we replaced the tractor beam range / pull speed bonus for something that each individual marauder might need...
Paladin + to tracking speed of Large Energy Turrets
Kronos + to web effectiveness or + to range of webs
Golem + to range of torps (not cruises, just torps) or + to explosion radius of torps (again for torps only)
Vargur + to velocity bonus of microwarp drives
Now, these bonuses might not be what each marauder is looking for, they are just example bonuses to help show what I mean by giving the EACH INDIVIDUAL Marauder a bonus that's useful for that hull. I've only flown the pally and golem, so those are what I would like to see for those hulls. What do you guys think? Is it usefull for PVP? Is it useful for PVE? |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:39:00 -
[4552] - Quote
The paladin with a L Corpus-X, 2xEANM II, DCU II, and ANP II comes in at these numbers:
Bastion Active EM: 82.54% - 2434.36 EHP/S - 83,605 EHP TH: 77.30% - 1872.42 EHP/S - 75,599 EHP KN: 77.13% - 1858.5 EHP/S - 82,088 EHP EX: 79.05% - 2028.83 EHP/S - 93,077 EHP Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
263
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:58:00 -
[4553] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU OH GOD THANK YOU!!! |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
106
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 03:39:00 -
[4554] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The paladin with a L Corpus-X, 2xEANM II, DCU II, and ANP II comes in at these numbers:
Bastion Active EM: 82.54% - 2434.36 EHP/S - 83,605 EHP TH: 77.30% - 1872.42 EHP/S - 75,599 EHP KN: 77.13% - 1858.5 EHP/S - 82,088 EHP EX: 79.05% - 2028.83 EHP/S - 93,077 EHP
The Vargur with XL Gist-X, 2xInvul II, DCU II, and SBA II comes in at:
Bastion Active EM: 76.20% - 2935.24 EHP/S - 98,914 EHP TH: 78.20% - 3204.52 EHP/S - 80,068 EHP KN: 81.00% - 3676.77 EHP/S - 78,595 EHP EX: 84.20% - 4421.43 EHP/S - 82,327 EHP
With a XL Pith-X those repair numbers go up to:
EM: 3630.00 EHP/S TH: 3963.03 EHP/S KN: 4547.05 EHP/S EX: 5467.97 EHP/S
There's simply a world of difference between armor and shield capabilities here. The Gist almost doubles repair output for a mere 5.9 cap/s increase over the Corpus-X repper. The Paladin could easily be destroyed by a couple of equally matched ships. Depending on cap warfare usage, the Vargur could stand up to 3-4 equally matched ships and stand a fighting chance. You just compared a 4-Slot + 1 Rig Armor Tank with a 5-Slot Shield Tank. You compared a 1x LAR armor tank to a Booster+SBA shield setup. You compared a Deadspace Line that increases ressource consumption with a deadspace line that decreases ressource consumption. You also found close to a decade old differences between shield and armor. Nothing about those numbers should come as a surprise to you. |

stoicfaux
3185
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 03:50:00 -
[4555] - Quote
Well, the Vargur just got silly in regards to level 4s. Currently, a Pithum C-Type MSB provides the bare minimum of tank for the Vargur. It has the advantage of being perma-boosted which cuts down on the micromanagement.
tl;dr - ~600 perma-tank, ~900DPS out to ~90km. 3s cycle times.
Rubicon Vargur's Tank in Bastion Mode with DCII, PIthum C-Type, and Invul II (not including passive shield regen): Angel - 643.5 Blood Raiders - 551.8 EoM - 639.0 Guristas - 617.3 Mercs - 602.6 Mordu's Legion - 635.2 Rogue Drones - 672.0 Sansha - 548.7 Serpentis - 611.5
Effectively cap stable, meaning you can perma-boost the Pithum C MSB.
Range with 3 TCs and Ambit rig: base: 4.2+72 Bastion: 5.25+90km
DPS with 2 5% dmg implants: RF ammo: 1123 (1155 w/o reload) (No drone dps.) 79% DPS at falloff: 887 (912 w/o reload) With 120 salvos, you don't often need to reload in the middle of a pocket.
Mach with 3 TEs for Comparison and 2x5% dmg implants: Range: 3.8+56km DPS w/T1: 1034 DPS w/RF: 1189
CNR with 4 CN BCUs and 5% rof and dmg impalnts: 999 missile DPS with Fury out to 93.75km (or 121km with Sig Amp II.)
[Vargur, Level 4 - Pithum C MSB (Rubicon)] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 03:56:00 -
[4556] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:You just compared a 4-Slot + 1 Rig Armor Tank with a 5-Slot Shield Tank. You compared a 1x LAR armor tank to a Booster+SBA shield setup. You compared a Deadspace Line that increases ressource consumption with a deadspace line that decreases ressource consumption. You also found close to a decade old differences between shield and armor. Nothing about those numbers should come as a surprise to you. The numbers don't surprise me at all. The two setups are similar in that they are both 5 slot fits; the difference being 1 rig versus 1 mid slot due to module availability. It does no good to use the "less resource" Corp armor repair module in the comparison as it has the exact same HP/cap ratio as the Corpus.
The post wasn't so much about the age old difference in repair potential between armor and shield tanking, but to highlight that difference when applied to Marauders when a bastion module is active. It is merely meant to be informative to anyone reading as to where the hulls sit in the realm of local repair potential. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Darkwolf
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 04:05:00 -
[4557] - Quote
Good to see from the last dev post that some sense has prevailed. Although I still think some base hull work could be in order (more EHP, possibly?), anything's better than that Version 2 mess.
I'm looking forward to testing out the Version 1 stats on Singularity when it's available. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 04:17:00 -
[4558] - Quote
What I'm really interested in seeing is the stats for the new Rapid Heavies. You'd be looking at ExRad of ~116m and ExVel of ~135m/s with 2xRigor II with Furies and ExRad of ~67m and ExVel of ~140m/s using CN ammo. A missile boat with the ability to down engage would be quite fun  Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

stoicfaux
3186
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 04:29:00 -
[4559] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:What I'm really interested in seeing is the stats for the new Rapid Heavies. You'd be looking at ExRad of ~116m and ExVel of ~135m/s with 2xRigor II with Furies and ExRad of ~67m and ExVel of ~140m/s using CN ammo. A missile boat with the ability to down engage would be quite fun  For PvP, it could be useful. For PvE, I would be worried about range. *IF* the Raven/CNR/Golem cannot apply their missile speed bonus (and other bonuses) to the new rapid launchers, then you're looking at ~45km for Fury HMLs, and ~60km for T1. Even with a 50% missile speed bonus, that's still just ~65km for Fury HMLs.
I'm withholding opinion until we have some official stats and answers about hull bonuses.
|

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 05:30:00 -
[4560] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Definitely looking forward to trying out the v1.0 Golem on Sisi.
|
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
493
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:07:00 -
[4561] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Sounds awesome. 
I think I'll totally overtank my marauder just so I have a reason to rename it to "Der Monstrositat".  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:32:00 -
[4562] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
You are still doing the same mistake: trying to make them all the same. You are doing it wrong. Can;t have the same thing work for Pali-Vargur-Golem-Kronos. Some of them are better off in the the second iteration and some in the first.
Regarding their pvp (lol) uses: any sub cap vessel that can not receive any remote assistance is a ticket to an expensive phail, being susceptible to cap drain at the same time only adds injury to insult.
You know pve is not just lvl 4s. In fact there are 4 or 5 options out there which mean that lvl4s are entirely out of the pve "endgame". So you are trying to make a top-of-the-line BS for intermediate users? wtf? |

Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:47:00 -
[4563] - Quote
now I am pretty confused
they returned bonus to armor repair and add ressistance bonus to bastion mode? Am I right?
And what about T2 ressists? They removed them or not? I can see them still in first post description. (if they leave them I like this "second update" for PvE reasons)
so whats the current state? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:50:00 -
[4564] - Quote
I think I'm just going to wait until Nov-19 and be surprised. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
493
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:58:00 -
[4565] - Quote
Christyna Ishiyama wrote:so whats the current state? What's not to understand?
Current State is marauder iteration 1. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:05:00 -
[4566] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Christyna Ishiyama wrote:so whats the current state? What's not to understand? Current State is marauder iteration 1.
Maybe*. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:09:00 -
[4567] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Take that second version and file it under CCP Blunder #281818227739302. Also, singularity = in practise?  Followed by a nerf threat to machariels. You sir, know how to upset people.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:10:00 -
[4568] - Quote
McBorsk wrote:Followed by a nerf threat to machariels. You sir, know how to upset people.
I was wondering when someone would comment on that... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
493
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:17:00 -
[4569] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Christyna Ishiyama wrote:so whats the current state? What's not to understand? Current State is marauder iteration 1. Maybe*.
Heh, that maybe true. o_O
But until I hear something else from CCP...
That said, I really want to test the Marauder iteration 1 because my Golem sneers at web bonuses.
Or somethinglike that...  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:24:00 -
[4570] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change.
Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs. |
|

DORNS LIGHT
Sneaky Git Industry
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:48:00 -
[4571] - Quote
with the new looting module coming the same time has the marauder rebalance is the tractor beam range/velocity bonus not a complete waste. most pve players will use the looting module and most pvp players wont be fitting tractor beams.  one question will the golem missile bonus go towards the new rapid launchers like the rest of the battleships? |

Flashbang Thereal
S0utherN Comfort Against ALL Authorities
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:05:00 -
[4572] - Quote
Im a little against the whole bastion ide. Dont know if this have been said befor since i have not had the time to look trough all the 200pages in this tread. Im pretty shure the bastion module wil be a disadvantage in a large pvp fight due to the no support of any kind thing. Picture your self 50 megas with logisupport. Against 50 maruders in bastion. So the bastion gives them boost to armor rep and ressist. But that wil not stop them from getting wolleyed off the field fast. But the megas with support wil be a much harder nut to crack and a cheaper alternative. 1v1 maruder wil most likely win 10outof10 times. But on and off bastion mode on a large battlefield wil render them in a state where they wil get to spread out after countless jumpdrive mistakes and bastionmode mistakes. Im not saying this is a shure thing. Just something to think about. |

Shamus en Divalone
Dip Dip Potatoe Chip
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:08:00 -
[4573] - Quote
I am currently within training range of either the Vargur or the Golem and can't decide which to go for, also I only see this ship as a long range weapons platform to cover other fleet members in a mission and clean up their mess behind them, oh and for popping structures with ease while tanking POS dps effortlessly  |

Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:23:00 -
[4574] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Christyna Ishiyama wrote:so whats the current state? What's not to understand? Current State is marauder iteration 1.
1st version: with rep bonus / bastion ressist bonus / without T2 ressist 2nd version: without rep bonus / without bastion ressist bonus / with T2 ressists / with webifier bonus
3rd (current version) is 1st version again or with rep bonus / bastion ressist bonus / with T2 ressists?
this is the only thing where I am not sure .... T2 ressists.... yes or no....
from counting and checking the other posts which appeared here I am assuming that T2 ressists are now out so they should maybe correct desctiption for hulls in first post because there are T2 ressist. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
78
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:33:00 -
[4575] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
im glad that stupid web is gone .... rest not so much
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
494
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:35:00 -
[4576] - Quote
Christyna Ishiyama wrote: 1st version: with rep bonus / bastion ressist bonus / without T2 ressist 2nd version: without rep bonus / without bastion ressist bonus / with T2 ressists / with webifier bonus
3rd (current version) is 1st version again or with rep bonus / bastion ressist bonus / with T2 ressists?
this is the only thing where I am not sure .... T2 ressists.... yes or no....
from counting and checking the other posts which appeared here I am assuming that T2 ressists are now out so they should maybe correct desctiption for hulls in first post because there are T2 ressist.
There is no 3rd iteration.
Last update wa a rollback to iteration 1. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:59:00 -
[4577] - Quote
Debora Tsung: version 3 was just my wish :-D
I just look forward to nice EHP even without bastion mod but this version isnt bad too :-D In bastion repair amount will be even better and without bastion it will be same and damage pattern will be better ...
and EHP is also question because Thermal and EM stays low so maybe when I am thinking about it ..... reverse back to option 1 is even better and give me better tank.
The only things which make me sad is that its much easier to fit much better shield tank than armor tank (but its another story and I am happy even with what I get) |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
521
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 10:19:00 -
[4578] - Quote
Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.
These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.
Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .
Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?
The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.
Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense. |

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 10:31:00 -
[4579] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:What if we replaced the tractor beam range / pull speed bonus for something that each individual marauder might need...
Paladin + to tracking speed of Large Energy Turrets
Kronos + to web effectiveness or + to range of webs
Golem + to range of torps (not cruises, just torps) or + to explosion radius of torps (again for torps only)
Vargur + to velocity bonus of microwarp drives
Now, these bonuses might not be what each marauder is looking for, they are just example bonuses to help show what I mean by giving the EACH INDIVIDUAL Marauder a bonus that's useful for that hull. I've only flown the pally and golem, so those are what I would like to see for those hulls. What do you guys think? Is it usefull for PVP? Is it useful for PVE?
Firstly the tractor bonus is 'for free'. If it goes, it's very unlikely to be replaced with a DPS or tanking bonus. That being the case, it's a simple, flat-out, bonus having it there, and IMO it should stay. Not everyone is going to want to have to carry and drop some anchorable device, that then has to be picked up again. In fact, that's completely counter to the MJD bonus.
Secondly, Golems already have a torp (and cruise) range bonus. Are you asking for a double range bonus for the Golem? Such a thing would either be useless, or would lock the Golem into being a torp boat (why do you want that?). The Paladin should probably have a tracking bonus in place of the cap bonus.
|

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 10:32:00 -
[4580] - Quote
I have made a spread sheet of likely active tank fits with the bastion setup as it is now and as id like to see it.
Look at the 3rd Sheet
As you can see from the sheet, in the current setup CCP has, it is forcing you to use the bastion mod just to tank, admittedly the tank can be insane when your in it but outside of bastion it's poor
CCP needs to make sure these ships can be used effective both in and out of bastion without having to gimp them dps or over pimp the ship |
|

Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 10:38:00 -
[4581] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .
100km/60s = 1333 m/s. No, they are not slower than the current Tranq Marauders. They'll just move differently.
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 10:51:00 -
[4582] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.
1 These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.
2 Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .
3 Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?
4 The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.
5 Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense.
1 ... ok
2 To perform their role ships must be able to tank the damage they receive. with a 185% increase in tank they will be able to do this much easier. The 25% range bonus will also be a bonus to damage application in snipe setups, or can compensate for immobility for short range fits. (paragraph is referring to PvE)
3 If siege didn't give them more dps they would probably have a role bonus to increase damage. in this case they would still be used as there is no other comparable (isk wise) options for outputting such large amounts of dps in one ship. what you probably meant was: why siege if it only bonuses tank? In this case, as is the case with marauders atm, people who fly them in fleets will have to be careful in deciding when to siege/bastion, as when facing small groups that can be tanked it will be an advantage, but when facing larger groups it will be a disadvantage.
4 WTF do you want to do from 300km away????
5 While a 25% dps bonus would be nice, it is not necessary. |

Cheng Chai
Random Awesome Holding Corp
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:06:00 -
[4583] - Quote
Wow.... Version 2 created some ships that would be actually useful for something other than extremly risky c4 site running.
Sad to see that they get nerfed into the ground again. I'm glad I haven't put the marauder skillbook into my Skllplan yet.
In version 1 they have a beasty local tank but thats about it. 1 neut ship will kill them and a 100km jump every 60sec wont safe you from tackle. |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1240
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:12:00 -
[4584] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
Aren't Pirate ships supposed to be better than T2? -does this means pirate ships including Machariel are due to a buff?  Sry my bad English understanding, I might be confused with you guys ships type "plan" *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:19:00 -
[4585] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:Yes pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2 however... However, the nerf bat is rumoured to be just around the corner. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
185
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:19:00 -
[4586] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:What if we replaced the tractor beam range / pull speed bonus for something that each individual marauder might need...
Paladin + to tracking speed of Large Energy Turrets
Kronos + to web effectiveness or + to range of webs
Golem + to range of torps (not cruises, just torps) or + to explosion radius of torps (again for torps only)
Vargur + to velocity bonus of microwarp drives
Now, these bonuses might not be what each marauder is looking for, they are just example bonuses to help show what I mean by giving the EACH INDIVIDUAL Marauder a bonus that's useful for that hull. I've only flown the pally and golem, so those are what I would like to see for those hulls. What do you guys think? Is it usefull for PVP? Is it useful for PVE? Firstly the tractor bonus is 'for free'. If it goes, it's very unlikely to be replaced with a DPS or tanking bonus. That being the case, it's a simple, flat-out, bonus having it there, and IMO it should stay. Not everyone is going to want to have to carry and drop some anchorable device, that then has to be picked up again. In fact, that's completely counter to the MJD bonus. Secondly, Golems already have a torp (and cruise) range bonus. Are you asking for a double range bonus for the Golem? Such a thing would either be useless, or would lock the Golem into being a torp boat (why do you want that?). The Paladin should probably have a tracking bonus in place of the cap bonus.
Again, those were placeholder bonuses (maybe I didn't make that clear enough, my bad). I'm simply saying that giving them all the exact same bonuses and changes weren't working, so the idea was to give them something they could each use separately. As far as the actual bonuses I picked, I just based that off of what I've been hearing people complain about the most for those given hulls; "Paladin doesn't have a tracking bonus...", "Blaster Kronos should have a web bonus...". As far as picking on the tractor bonuses, i figured that if CCP is unwilling to at least boost the range on them, there would be little point with them given the combination of the MJD and the upcoming loot-o-matic deployable. If you believe the tractor bonuses need to stay, then so be it. I still feel each hull needs a bonus specific to that hull and that hull alone rather than trying to make a bunch of size-fits-all adjustments/bonuses/changes. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
243
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:20:00 -
[4587] - Quote
http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/koY3dIC9gwY/mqdefault.jpg I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1440
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:21:00 -
[4588] - Quote
Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions? BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Cheng Chai
Random Awesome Holding Corp
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:23:00 -
[4589] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:With +25% range given to Marauders Mach will no longer be the best at dmg projection, but I'm probably wrong. Khronos with long range T2 and +25% range it's a hell of range for dmg application, you see what I mean?
The problem of Vargur and Kronos is that Machariel and Vindicator just do flat out more DPS and have one more Fitting slot AND one more Rigslot to make up for the damage application. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:26:00 -
[4590] - Quote
From the perspective of one who used a Vargur or Golem for HS-PvE and 0.0 Ratting:
Right now i tried them, but i prefer a Macha all the time. The Speed, the possible tank, four sentries and a load of small drones...
I always thought learning the marauders was stupid. Less DPS, less speed, less scan resolution and no resist bonus on a T2 Hull.
In lvl 4 missions a MJD would be Stupid. In 0.0 ratting I jump in, clear the site warp out--> so MJD stupid. I have used a Macha in PVP but a sitting duck BS worth 1.5bil ... not with me.
I was quite happy about the changes, mostly any change would be welcome, but if i am forced to use the bastion i would not be happy.
If I have to go to bastion to use this ship i would like to see a damage plus to finally outrange the macha or the CNR if you fly a golem. Skill level should always reflect something in a ship. |
|

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
261
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:28:00 -
[4591] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?
I use my golem for 5s amigo! |

Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
55
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:29:00 -
[4592] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:I think the biggest issue, as some have point out, is the balancing between a PVE and PVP perspective. Traditionally speaking, the marauder has been a ship class strictly for PVE since its inception into the game. This has created an iconic "carebear" ship that was able to PvP in the past, but really suffered due to the initial limitations placed by the CCP devs.
Now we've reached an age in EvE where the ships are changing, some drastically and some just a pinch here and there. As we enter the marauder rebalance, I believe it's very important for both the players and for the developers to realize that the pre-existing iterations of marauders can already easily run lvl 4 missions. Rebalancing them specifically so that they're even better at PVE is foolish and lacks forward thinking. Any BS can run lvl 4 missions in highsec easily enough so there is no need to relegate a single class to just PVE. If these ships are balanced correctly, they will still excel at PVE just because they excel at PVP.
Now, as we focus on the ship balancing itself I would like to say this. As I've watched the ship balancing come and pass for the T1 hulls, I've really felt that the game has lost of its racial flare and has been more focused on homogenization through equal slot allowances, slot layouts, etc. These marauders represent the pinnacle of their respective races sub capital class ship, and as such should truly show racial differences. Giving every marauder the same web bonus across the four races is boring and takes away their differences and specialties. As for the bastion module, the idea is exciting but the presentation needs work. Due to this, these ships prove challenging to balance but here goes my two cents.
I would like to provide a concept instead of hard numbers, which hopefully will be discussed and built upon: Bastion Module: 1) 60 second cycle timer 2) Anchor ship when activated. 3) Provides Ewar immunity while activated. 4) Provides mass increase so you can't be bumped. To counter the WH closing problem: you cannot jump while the module is activated....or dock or jump gates for that matter 5) Provides 100% bonus to armor repairer/shield repairer effectiveness and cap reduction and/or cycle time reduction to armor/shield repairers. (Caution for ASB fits....may be OP) 6) Is scripted to provide specific bonuses to short range or long range play styles. This module is only limited to 1 hull that cost over a billion, its okay to introduce a useful one considering the trade off of being stuck in place for a minute
Marauders: Like I mentioned earlier, these should be the racial embodiment of their weapon system. They should illustrate the strength of pulse/beam lasers, blaster/railgun hybrids, cruise/torp missiles, auto/artillery projectiles through hull specific bonuses. Note, these bonuses should not provide a direct bonus to raw damage, but rather damage application bonuses that have synergy with the bastion module itself.
The marauders need survivability inside and outside of bastion mode. This means providing hull bonuses that boost actual armor or shield HP. This provides usefulness for use outside of bastion mode, i.e receiving RR, and provides bonuses to bastion mode, i.e. having enough buffer to get rep cycles off.
The marauders also need racial specific support bonuses like webs, but not a blanket bonus to each hull. These ships aren't similar by any means in the damage application or ranges of engagement, so their support bonus shouldn't be similar as well. Paladin: bonus to TC (mid range weapon system) Golem: bonus to TP (missile application) Kronos: bonus to web strength (short range weapon system) Vargur: bonus to TC ( mid range weapon system)
(I'm not exactly sure what kind of (or if we should even have the bonus) support form of Ewar to use without having overlap) Edited****
Keep the MJD role bonus. Coordinated with a scripted bastion module, these ships can benefit from pulling range or closing distances to accommodate different play styles and fleet doctrines. Still don't have anything kind of bonus that could be given to the Vargur that wouldn't step on the Paladin's toes in terms of a support bonus. Both lasers and projectiles fall into midrange category so it's proving to be challenging.
Adding this here again since the Dev's just went back to the original plan which to me shows a total lack of understand about what direction they should take. So that means ideas should still be open |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
494
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:44:00 -
[4593] - Quote
Cheng Chai wrote:Wow.... Version 2 created some ships that would be actually useful for something other than extremly risky c4 site running.
Sad to see that they get nerfed into the ground again. I'm glad I haven't put the marauder skillbook into my Skllplan yet.
In version 1 they have a beasty local tank but thats about it. 1 neut ship will kill them and a 100km jump every 60sec wont safe you from tackle.
Yeah, SOME ships. About two of four. That's why not all maauders should be the same. 
I really believe it's ok if when the ships that need a web bonus to work actually get a web bonus (Kronos anyone?).
But a web bonus for my Golem... WHY? My TP's have 30+60 km range.
Why would I want a 10km Webber on a ship that has almost 70km range with it's short range weaponry?
For the frigates some might say. But who in their right mind would want to tackle you when you are in bastion mode? That's a waste of time. And who would want to use a scram on you when everyone could stay out of your webber range by simply using a warp disruptor?
And that neuts... :/ In a Paladin I might be afraid, In a golem or vargur... not so much.
That 1 neut would have to be at least a large neut and you have enough free high slots to fit multiple energy vamps to counter that and thanks to the tank bonus of the bastion mode enough mid slots to use cap boosters and batteries...
Do You know how many 800's booster charges you can carry in a marauder?
I count 36 + ~2000 torpedoes (provided you have a container in your cargo hold). 48 if you want to use Navy charges and even more if you decide to use cruise missiles... (yes, I like my golem)
Tbh, so long as the enemy team does not have a dedicated T2 neut ship with them I would not be afraid (at least not more than usually).
And Yes, I actually do believe that if you want to PVP with your overly expensive shiney ship then you'll have a gang with you. In fact I do believe that the only reason that gang lets you tag along in your new marauder is your monstrously bloated tank and your immunity to ewar. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:54:00 -
[4594] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:The paladin with a L Corpus-X, 2xEANM II, DCU II, and ANP II comes in at these numbers:
Bastion Active EM: 82.54% - 2434.36 EHP/S - 83,605 EHP TH: 77.30% - 1872.42 EHP/S - 75,599 EHP KN: 77.13% - 1858.5 EHP/S - 82,088 EHP EX: 79.05% - 2028.83 EHP/S - 93,077 EHP
The Vargur with XL Gist-X, 2xInvul II, DCU II, and SBA II comes in at:
Bastion Active EM: 76.20% - 2935.24 EHP/S - 98,914 EHP TH: 78.20% - 3204.52 EHP/S - 80,068 EHP KN: 81.00% - 3676.77 EHP/S - 78,595 EHP EX: 84.20% - 4421.43 EHP/S - 82,327 EHP
With a XL Pith-X those repair numbers go up to:
EM: 3630.00 EHP/S TH: 3963.03 EHP/S KN: 4547.05 EHP/S EX: 5467.97 EHP/S
There's simply a world of difference between armor and shield capabilities here. The Gist almost doubles repair output for a mere 5.9 cap/s increase over the Corpus-X repper. The Paladin could easily be destroyed by a couple of equally matched ships. Depending on cap warfare usage, the Vargur could stand up to 3-4 equally matched ships and stand a fighting chance.
That's because the Gist line of shield boosters are just massively overpowered.
Note that the Pith line is not overpowered, and every other type of shield booster is balanced against armor tanking. It's just the Gist ones that are immensely out of line and need a huge nerf. Of course, that's why they cost over 2 billion ISK.
The Pith-X is balanced against two large Centus-X reppers. It uses the cap of two large reppers as well as the fittings. A Pith-X XLSB and SBA uses 43% of the base CPU and 5.9% of the base PG of the Golem. Two Centus-X reppers use 17.4% of the base CPU and 30.5% of the base PG of the Paladin. |

Nick D Wolfwood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:04:00 -
[4595] - Quote
I just want to start the testing! |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:08:00 -
[4596] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote: For the frigates some might say. But who in their right mind would want to tackle you when you are in bastion mode? That's a waste of time. And who would want to use a scram on you when everyone could stay out of your webber range by simply using a warp disruptor?
Frig in web(scram) range, web and kill it. Frig in disrupt range, you can point it, but its point is useless because of your MJD. The web addition wasn't completely stupid (except for the golem), it just didn't fit in with the rest of the range and PvE bonuses enough to be worth the loss of the rep bonus. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:09:00 -
[4597] - Quote
The Djego wrote:The jump range of a acceleration gate is 2500m, again pls try it before you suggest it. You want to move around in most L4 missions, because it increases the dps, you don't want to MJD around because it deceases applied dps. The cap is not enough to run tachs and active tank under neuts, I even use a med rep for L4, since the large one doesn't add much tank by the rather limited runtime(also for fitting reasons).
Why would you ever use tachs when you can use 90km scorch? If everything is within optimal, you don't need to move. It's that simple. Moving does not increase your dps in that situation unless you can't track it, and slow-ass battleships aren't going to gain much on that front. Scorch does less DPS than Conflag sure but it sure beats out any crystal in Tachs.
And yes I know acceleration gate activation range is 2500m, it does not take long to move 2500m, even in a battleship.
Quote:I never used active armor tank rigs on any marauder because of the high calibration cost. You throw away the opportunity to capitalize T2 damage rigs and you need to be on cap booster live support(what is terrible in WHs). RR and extra cap with a logi is just a lot more effective(again all the changes are completely useless in RR environments). Also you want to use sentry's, not light drones, not because light drones can pop(what they do from time to time, if you actually use some) but because light drones vs frigs is horrible ineffective compared to utilizing 90% webbing.
Yes, having two ships is better than one ship. Of course using a logi and a marauder is more effective than just a marauder. Instead of comparing logi + pre-patch Marauder to a single post-patch Marauder, try comparing two post-patch Marauders to a logi and a pre-patch Marauder. Pre-patch, Marauders couldn't solo C4s at all (except for maybe dual XLASB Vargurs) and definitely couldn't handle C5s. Post-patch they can do it. There is no way in hell two pilots in a logi+Marauder will ever out-ISK two pilots in two Marauders, simply on DPS alone. Safeguard neut range is 25km and Upholder neut range is 70km, in both cases you can MJD out of range and just shoot them with scorch if your tank can't handle a triple neut spawn. |

Nick D Wolfwood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:11:00 -
[4598] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:I am currently within training range of either the Vargur or the Golem and can't decide which to go for, also I only see this ship as a long range weapons platform to cover other fleet members in a mission and clean up their mess behind them, oh and for popping structures with ease while tanking POS dps effortlessly 
Well I have actually trained both. Golem pops BS and Cruiser fast at range or up close while taking a sec for the Frig size for missions and the Vargur can pop a Frig or Cruiser at range fast but needs a sec for the BS at range |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
494
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:20:00 -
[4599] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:The web addition wasn't completely stupid (except for the golem), . See, that's what I was talking about.
We had two crying main crowds in here.
One wanted the web bonus for their kronos and Paladin (Vargur too? I admit I only fly the golem and ignore all the other stuff) back and the others didn't want that web bonus because of missiles. Really if I were more commited to that game I'd do nothing else than to cry for one thing or the other to get it. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1485
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:29:00 -
[4600] - Quote
...and so we are back to square one.
let me reiterate my concerns with the old proposal (i.e. the new new proposal): - marauders will become "too strong" for lvl4s, to the point where even pirate ships will be obsolete. - their already questionable performance in incursions will be completely subpar - the two points above will anger a portion of current pirate BS as well as marauder pilots. they will adapt eventually, but sill, forcing another set of 30day skills on people is kind of a **** move. - the bastion module is a questionable pvp tool. it will increase the number of situations where one party has a default win over the other. for example, if a small gang does not bring cap warfare or overwhelming damage, they have no way of breaking through a well set up marauder, while at the same time having no chance to outrange it. on the other hand, locking your 1bil marauder in space for 60 seconds will often be a death sentence as it allows a competent frigate pilot an easy tackle. - for pve outside of hisec bastion is not a good option, as it reduces the chance of getting away when ambushed.
now i know that you desperately want to keep the bastion module on the current marauders hulls (probably because you don't want to 'waste' the fancy animations). my proposal would be to scrap the bonus tank as well as the ewar (and remote rep) immunity and only keep the bonus range in exchange for immobility. this would keep the hisec crowd satisfied. for pvp, the new MJD bonus together with a buff in EHP and mobility would be more than enough to keep the class interesting (think T2 'attack' battleship).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
164
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:38:00 -
[4601] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Why would you ever use tachs when you can use 90km scorch? If everything is within optimal, you don't need to move. It's that simple. Moving does not increase your dps in that situation unless you can't track it, and slow-ass battleships aren't going to gain much on that front. Scorch does less DPS than Conflag sure but it sure beats out any crystal in Tachs.
And yes I know acceleration gate activation range is 2500m, it does not take long to move 2500m, even in a battleship.
It takes well over 30s in a BS that goes very slow(even worse with armor rigs), in the same time frame I can move my current Paladin 20km with a MWD and also adjust range to the spawns on the fly. Tachs are more effective for damage projection in nearly all situations outside conflag optimal and I even tend to mwd around a lot with 30km Conflag optimal in my navy Apoc.
Xequecal wrote:Yes, having two ships is better than one ship. Of course using a logi and a marauder is more effective than just a marauder. Instead of comparing logi + pre-patch Marauder to a single post-patch Marauder, try comparing two post-patch Marauders to a logi and a pre-patch Marauder. Pre-patch, Marauders couldn't solo C4s at all (except for maybe dual XLASB Vargurs) and definitely couldn't handle C5s. Post-patch they can do it. There is no way in hell two pilots in a logi+Marauder will ever out-ISK two pilots in two Marauders, simply on DPS alone. Safeguard neut range is 25km and Upholder neut range is 70km, in both cases you can MJD out of range and just shoot them with scorch if your tank can't handle a triple neut spawn.
Again scorch range gimps your dps and it is far easier to multibox 2 marauders + logi than 3 marauders(you can't even cap chain between marauders in bastion) and you need the logi anyway since cap charges can't be easily restocked in Wormholes and you would need to many cap mods otherwise, the gains are not even that big given that you lose about 30-50% of the dps if you don't utilize sentry's and can't stay at ranges where you do optimal damage.
Yes a single marauder will be able to tank C4 and C5 after the changes, but the price for this is a big nerf to her potential in gangs, where they are miles more effective for this kind of content, because they can utilize the utility high slots for RR and cap chaining. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against all the fancy stuff, that I will never use, but it doesn't make sense why marauders should be overall a lot worse for the people that don't need active tank and even if they do would rather chose the higher dps and speed the current marauders got over becoming immobile low dps brick tanks(If I want that I can use a rattlesnake for it). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:53:00 -
[4602] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Again scorch range gimps your dps and it is far easier to multibox 2 marauders + logi than 3 marauders(you can't even cap chain between marauders in bastion) and you need the logi anyway since cap charges can't be easily restocked in Wormholes and you would need to many cap mods otherwise, the gains are not even that big given that you lose about 30-50% of the dps if you don't utilize sentry's and can't stay at ranges where you do optimal damage.
Yes a single marauder will be able to tank C4 and C5 after the changes, but the price for this is a big nerf to her potential in gangs, where they are miles more effective for this kind of content, because they can utilize the utility high slots for RR and cap chaining. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against all the fancy stuff, that I will never use, but it doesn't make sense why marauders should be overall a lot worse for the people that don't need active tank and even if they do would rather chose the higher dps and speed the current marauders got over becoming immobile low dps brick tanks(If I want that I can use a rattlesnake for it).
3 Marauders with Scorch is better DPS than 2 Marauders with Conflag and a logi. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:15:00 -
[4603] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.
These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.
Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .
Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?
The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.
Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense.
I'm going to disagree with you a bit.
Increased damage is not important in bastion. See, what bastion allows Marauders to do, is not be stopped from dealing damage.
Some ships deal more damage, but as the cost of 0 mobility, Marauders can deal damage non-stop. Higher dps ships can be blocked from dealing damage.
Also, the reason for 249km lock range is because of grid issues. If you get outside that lock range, there's a good chance you'll fall off grid, and that's an issue. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:20:00 -
[4604] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?
Because it's true.
If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you. When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit.
However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster. In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range.
Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships. So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets...
I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake...
Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head. I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder. |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade Evolution of Dawn
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:23:00 -
[4605] - Quote
First off, I'm assuming that the first post hasn't been update with the resist numbers, because they still look like T2 resists to me. So my post is based on current Marauder resists because I don't think that was going to change originally.
I do think that version 1 (current proposed version) is far better suited for solo PvE activities, and Marauders were originally meant for PvE, so it makes sense and I'm happy about that. This revision will make solo PvE far easier.
However, I am sad about the loss of EHP when not in Bastion mode as I really wanted to try flying these in incursions. I guess I'll have to wait around for the pirate BS rebalance to settle on an incursion ship. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:30:00 -
[4606] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:...and so we are back to square one.
let me reiterate my concerns with the old proposal (i.e. the new new proposal): - marauders will become "too strong" for lvl4s, to the point where even pirate ships will be obsolete. - their already questionable performance in incursions will be completely subpar - the two points above will anger a portion of current pirate BS as well as marauder pilots. they will adapt eventually, but sill, forcing another set of 30day skills on people is kind of a **** move. - the bastion module is a questionable pvp tool. it will increase the number of situations where one party has a default win over the other. for example, if a small gang does not bring cap warfare or overwhelming damage, they have no way of breaking through a well set up marauder, while at the same time having no chance to outrange it. on the other hand, locking your 1bil marauder in space for 60 seconds will often be a death sentence as it allows a competent frigate pilot an easy tackle. - for pve outside of hisec bastion is not a good option, as it reduces the chance of getting away when ambushed.
now i know that you desperately want to keep the bastion module on the current marauders hulls (probably because you don't want to 'waste' the fancy animations). my proposal would be to scrap the bonus tank as well as the ewar (and remote rep) immunity and only keep the bonus range in exchange for immobility. this would keep the hisec crowd satisfied. for pvp, the new MJD bonus together with a buff in EHP and mobility would be more than enough to keep the class interesting (think T2 'attack' battleship).
- Marauders will tanks lvl 4's better, but ultimately this will help them in other areas of solo pve more so than lvl 4's. - These are designed to be solo ships, if you want to fleet, get a navy/pirate - I think CCP has actually attached bastion to a shorter duration skill - this should make those that wanted Marauder to "Maraud" happy. Besides, they're hardly usable in pvp as they are on live, if at all outside of AT. Also, while it will be hard to break a bastioned Marauder, brawler fitted pirate ships will be a natural counter, as they can get under Marauder gun tracking and simply orbit. - That's a risk you take in any ship... I can show up in a Pirate bs, or a titan, and still take the risk of getting ambushed.
No to the last part... If i'm locked in place, there's no way that a measily 25% weapon range is worth immobility. I'm a Golem pilot. I can already fire missile farther than my lock range, so how would only 25% range bonus for immobility help me at all??? |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
380
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:32:00 -
[4607] - Quote
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:38:00 -
[4608] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.
That's the point though.
They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.
If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
380
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:40:00 -
[4609] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp. If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship
Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?
hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.- |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:43:00 -
[4610] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp. If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think? hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-
I'd have to agree with you....
MWD bonus would be much better for a pve focused ship, while MJD would be better suited for something like former tier 3 bcs... Of maybe even remove the range bonus of bastion, give MWD bonus, and tier 3 bs's that get MJD bonus, as tier 3 bs's are more sniper focused |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:00:00 -
[4611] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Let me explain why all this marauder concept is faulty.
1 These are combat ships that are not ewar ships neither remote repair ships. THat means their role is to DEAL DAMAGE.
2 Dealing damage is their primary work, a work they do as well outside bastion mode as in bastion mode (the meager range extension is almost irrelevant). THere is no reason why I would prefer new marauders to old ones, because they do damage same way while the old ones are way faster .
3 Bastion mode without damage bonus is a waste of an idea. Who would use dreads if siege only gave them tank?
4 The only way a bastion module with range bonus would help is if ccp changed the horrifically short 249 km lock range limit. IF we could lock things at 300 km, then this extra range would mean something tactically. But even then would be a minor thing.
5 Give bastion a 25% damage bonus and the ship magically becomes something that makes sense. 1 ... ok 2 To perform their role ships must be able to tank the damage they receive. with a 185% increase in tank they will be able to do this much easier. The 25% range bonus will also be a bonus to damage application in snipe setups, or can compensate for immobility for short range fits. (paragraph is referring to PvE) 3 If siege didn't give them more dps they would probably have a role bonus to increase damage. in this case they would still be used as there is no other comparable (isk wise) options for outputting such large amounts of dps in one ship. what you probably meant was: why siege if it only bonuses tank? In this case, as is the case with marauders atm, people who fly them in fleets will have to be careful in deciding when to siege/bastion, as when facing small groups that can be tanked it will be an advantage, but when facing larger groups it will be a disadvantage. 4 WTF do you want to do from 300km away???? 5 While a 25% dps bonus would be nice, it is not necessary.
2- Tankign more when you already have enough tank does not improve your performance. Its a waste.
3- As you said IF they did nto had they would need it. Fact remaisn they need extra damage to validade the usage of siege.
4- Just an extrapolation that the range bonus on those ships will put in some case syour optimal outside 250 km or very close to it, and that is not useful. As in more thank than needed, mroe range than you can lock is not a real bonus
5- The DPS would give a clear reason to use bastion. My vargur can already tank anything that I can do solo very very easily. Any activity that will use several ships its better done with logistics. THere is no reason to bring a battleship that can self tank more when that tank is already too much for solo activities and too small to tank an enemy fleet . It wil be simply stupid to use bastion on most of the time. THa tunless they give us somethign you can ALWAYS use.. DAMAGE
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:03:00 -
[4612] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp. If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think? hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-
Freighters, indys and exploration ships are all designed for solo use, get over it.
If you want something thats fast and high damage with a good tank, you already have HACs, T3s and Command Ships and Pirate ships somewhat. I don't see why the game needs another class like this.
MJD is great for PvE, especially where jump gates are involved, and snipey fits or range bonused bastion fits, since jump gates tend to put you in blobs of enemies and MJD allows you to instantly pull range and force enemies to come at you with no transversal. It also makes it a lot harder to get your ship killed in PvE since you can MJD away from any pointing frigs.
|

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
877
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:05:00 -
[4613] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.
They're hardly solo ships, they're much more like small gang ships. |

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
185
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:09:00 -
[4614] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think? Not really. "Solo" doesn't have to mean "I don't want to interact with other players ever". |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:25:00 -
[4615] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp. If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think? hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-
Tank is never the OMFG emergency switch. It never saves you. Would be a wasteful resource. The time to get help for you get more help for enemy. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2736

|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:29:00 -
[4616] - Quote
Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs.
No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
494
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:32:00 -
[4617] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs. No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.
So a Marauder in bastion mode cannot be bumped? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:35:00 -
[4618] - Quote
Questio to CCP Ytterbium.
How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?
The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?
The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.) |

Typhu5
Black Innocence
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:35:00 -
[4619] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:
hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus MJD is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-
I lol'd so hard.. O man... that is soooo true. XD |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:48:00 -
[4620] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Questio to CCP Ytterbium.
How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?
The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?
The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.)
I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.
Also, I just thought of something...
This is actually good for high sec mission corps...
Most of the time they don't fight wars because they either don't know how to pvp fit ships, or their afraid of losses.
It's a ship that could be used to counter these small war dec fieets that aggress easy high sec targets.
I mean, it may not happen this way, but it's a possibility. |
|

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1242
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:54:00 -
[4621] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs. No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.
I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship.
I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly.
I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion.
ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships.
:sad panda: *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1243
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:58:00 -
[4622] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.
Put so much effort in coding or whatever stuff to achieve this is a pure waste of time when there are better ideas or improvements to make it worth of more than that.
If it's really what's going to happen and what this ship will be worth of it will look to me like a fail concept. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:59:00 -
[4623] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs. No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active. I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship. I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly. I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion. ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships. :sad panda:
the odds of someone using a sub cap hull that costs as much as a capital in pvp is pretty slim anyway. They're going to be alpha'd off the field quickly just cause they're a heavy isk loss...
Personally, i'm happy with what they're doing, even if it doesn't help their pvp effectiveness. At least they'll be usable in other forms of solo pve, which they aren't now. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:03:00 -
[4624] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing. Put so much effort in coding or whatever stuff to achieve this is a pure waste of time when there are better ideas or improvements to make it worth of more than that. If it's really what's going to happen and what this ship will be worth of it will look to me like a fail concept.
there have been TONS of threads over the years asking for a ship that was good at high sec POS bashing. Granted, most people wanted higher dps to do so.
However, having bashed high sec POS's myself, the hardest part about it isn't the incoming dps, but rather when they surround their POS with a bunch of jam/damp defense..
This will put pressure on those POS's, and all high sec POS's at that rate... |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
607
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:03:00 -
[4625] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.
Also, I just thought of something...
This is actually good for high sec mission corps...
Most of the time they don't fight wars because they either don't know how to pvp fit ships, or their afraid of losses.
It's a ship that could be used to counter these small war dec fieets that aggress easy high sec targets.
I mean, it may not happen this way, but it's a possibility. They'll probably just turn into expensive loss mails. Fitting a ship for pvp vs pve is different. As is having tactics for pvp, tackle, ewar, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if you don't know what you're doing, a strong tank (from Bastion) isn't going to matter.
To Ytterbium--Bastion now stops bumping? And if not, are you going to compensate with a tracking buff in Bastion, considering the ship really can do nothing if its being bumped.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:04:00 -
[4626] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
And thank you Sir. This may not be perfect, but the second take on marauders was just horrible. Both proposals sucked for PvP, both were bad in fleets, etc. But the first one is an ultimate solo ratting ship. If I have to chose between a ship that can do only one thing well, and a ship that can't do anything well, I obviously chose the first one.
Still I hope you develope a 3rd proposal, and if not - at lest do something with the tractor bonus - in light of Rubicon it has no sence. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
515
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:11:00 -
[4627] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. And thank you Sir. This may not be perfect, but the second take on marauders was just horrible. Both proposals sucked for PvP, both were bad in fleets, etc. But the first one is an ultimate solo ratting ship. If I have to chose between a ship that can do only one thing well, and a ship that can't do anything well, I obviously chose the first one. Still I hope you develope a 3rd proposal, and if not - at lest do something with the tractor bonus - in light of Rubicon it has no sence.
I would like to see a 3rd iteration come in that doesn't change bastion, but instead focuses on the base hull, so that the ship hull can be more effective by itself.
I would very much like to see the removal of the 8th high, and place that into a mid or low slot. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1444
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:14:00 -
[4628] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions? Because it's true. If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you. When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit. However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster. In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range. Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships. So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets... I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake... Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head. I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder.
Yea.. MJD + range = you really don't need a tank proper man. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
164
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:15:00 -
[4629] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: 3 Marauders with Scorch is better DPS than 2 Marauders with Conflag and a logi.
If you figure in sentry's the difference is minimal, tipple boxing 3 marauders effective is a pain and again you need the logi for cap anyway if you want to do it effective.
Xequecal wrote:Honestly, there's nothing stopping you from running a MJD and an afterburner, bastion means you can pretty much 1-slot tank L4s. This is IMHO why they nerfed the drone bays, or people would do ridiculous gimmick fits like 2-slot shield tanking their Paladin with 4 heatsinks and 3 drone damage mods. The Tach comment is just nonsensical, Tachs with MF or Gleam have far worse DPS and tracking than pulses with Scorch.
The limited amount of med slots and the brick treatment of the marauders do actually stop me from doing just this. You can 2 slot tank L4 now(even with armor) and I actually do this most of the time, because incoming dps with proper dps application is next to zero and therefore I am just left with a lot less dps and speed in exchange for something you only need if you over tank the hulls or don't utilize RR.
I think you really should go back and check on how much applied dps a proper tach setup pull up compared with scorch, since you are pretty much wrong on it.
A puls Paladin(T2 rof rig, 4 facton damage mods, both 6% imps) with scorch does 968 dps, while a tach Paladin(same fitting) does 1168 dps with IN multi and 1185 with gleam. Also against nearly every rat the more thermal heavy Tachyons produce higher applied dps, since the overall damage shifts a lot later to EM damage, compared to puls use. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:42:00 -
[4630] - Quote
I wonder if ccp might look into these ship n think that the shield and armour ones are very different. mybe we could see the shield ships keep the 7.5% bonus to boosters but the armour ships may benifit more from 4% armour resist bonus |
|

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:45:00 -
[4631] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp. If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think? hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.- Freighters, indys and exploration ships are all designed for solo use, get over it. If you want something thats fast and high damage with a good tank, you already have HACs, T3s and Command Ships and Pirate ships somewhat. I don't see why the game needs another class like this. MJD is great for PvE, especially where jump gates are involved, and snipey fits or range bonused bastion fits, since jump gates tend to put you in blobs of enemies and MJD allows you to instantly pull range and force enemies to come at you with no transversal. It also makes it a lot harder to get your ship killed in PvE since you can MJD away from any pointing frigs. EDIT: Also the MJD is actually the OMFG GTFO switch, allowing you to get away almost instantly regardless of pointing frigs. Anchoring yourself in place for a minute after your tank has been breaking is a terrible idea.
Scrams deactivate MJDs, so they wont help you, sub bs ships do not have good dps, and mjds have a spool up so you wont be saved anyway if you land in the middle of camp.
anchoring knowing your tank will become 3 or 4 times stronger, is a great way to make up time so you can call for reinforcements, personally I have saved myself a few times overloading tank modules while someone saved me with a blackbird and jammed the attacking players. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:17:00 -
[4632] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Questio to CCP Ytterbium.
How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?
The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?
The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.) I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing. Also, I just thought of something... This is actually good for high sec mission corps... Most of the time they don't fight wars because they either don't know how to pvp fit ships, or their afraid of losses. It's a ship that could be used to counter these small war dec fieets that aggress easy high sec targets. I mean, it may not happen this way, but it's a possibility.
Not gonna work They do not have the buffer to resist a manned POS, they wil be easily crushed by large POS guns. I would love my wartargets to try using marauders with basion. Woudl simply give me tons of expensive kills that are easier to kill than a HAC.
One usage I tought, that goes nicely is Add to bastion mode the following. 100% remote repair range 100% remote repair effectiveness and 50% reduction in RR capacitor.
No this will nto make logistics obsolete. Logistics are still the shisp for mobile work. And the marauders become mini triage boats. Mini because their bonus is not that strogn but enough so that whiel in bastion mode they can support rest of fleet.
That removes one of the fails of the Bastion mode, the fact ath in gang simply peopel will fire at other ships and ignore the bastion marauder, because cotnrary to dreds they are not significantly more dangeroud while in siege/bastion.. This capability hardly will become OP, because while immobile they achor the whole fleet if there is need fo the RR.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:19:00 -
[4633] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Random Woman wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs. No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active. I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship. I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly. I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion. ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships. :sad panda: the odds of someone using a sub cap hull that costs as much as a capital in pvp is pretty slim anyway. They're going to be alpha'd off the field quickly just cause they're a heavy isk loss... Personally, i'm happy with what they're doing, even if it doesn't help their pvp effectiveness. At least they'll be usable in other forms of solo pve, which they aren't now.
If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:29:00 -
[4634] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I wonder if ccp might look into these ship n think that the shield and armour ones are very different. mybe we could see the shield ships keep the 7.5% bonus to boosters but the armour ships may benifit more from 4% armour resist bonus
How about the opposite? WHy the armor ones shoudl get the better bonus? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
516
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:46:00 -
[4635] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE....
Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect..
You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode.... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
516
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:51:00 -
[4636] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions? Because it's true. If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you. When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit. However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster. In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range. Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships. So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets... I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake... Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head. I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder. Yea.. MJD + range = you really don't need a tank proper man.
These ships will work nicely as counter snipers. t3 bc's and bs's fitted for sniping have always been a pain for people to deal with.. With marauders you can either MJD right on top of them, or you can just bastion and tank them while sniping right back at them... Currently, there's not really anything to counter t3 bs and bc snipers... iteration 1 will change this, and Marauders will still be countered by brawlers due to tracking issues. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:00:00 -
[4637] - Quote
Guys stop crying about their pvp application. Version mk 1 or version mk 2 you would not use them for pvp anyway. I took a liberty of chcking records of some of you and either you post with your alts or you really suck at pvp. This ship costs too much and is too immobile (even without bastion) to risk it in pvp. And this comes from a guy that regularly flies full fation-fitted ships for pvp. The only place where mk 2 coud find use is a wormhol pvp because there are no blobs there. BUT they get hard countered by Dreads which will insta-pop your 2bil marauders. Guys in wh1-3 could use them, but they don't earn enough to risk marauders in pvp... |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
165
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:13:00 -
[4638] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE.... Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect.. You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode....
Ineresting, then we have:
Joe Risalo wrote: Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x. Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still...
I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists...
You are horrible over tanked already, around 300 dps tank is already completely sufficient for 98% of all L4 missions if played right(high dps and move the ship with a mwd to a good position to reduce incoming dps or increase applied dps). If you need that much tank you doing it wrong.
Example Recon 1/3 in the most cap hungry ship in eve with 2 cap mods, med rep and 200 dps omnitank: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1305/Abaddon_L4_Recon_1.mkv Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
517
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:24:00 -
[4639] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE.... Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect.. You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode.... Ineresting, then we have: Joe Risalo wrote: Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x. Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still...
I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists...
You are horrible over tanked already, around 300 dps tank is already completely sufficient for 98% of all L4 missions if played right(high dps and move the ship with a mwd to a good position to reduce incoming dps or increase applied dps). If you need that much tank you doing it wrong. Example Recon 1/3 in the most cap hungry ship in eve with 2 cap mods, med rep and 200 dps omnitank: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1305/Abaddon_L4_Recon_1.mkv
lol, that video is blurry, but whatever. also, recon 1/3 isn't one of the more difficult missions that requires a lot of tank.
That said though.
The fit I have built has that kind of tank, with 1015dps out to max target range, 2 tp's, and doesn't even factor in drone damage. That's pure cruise missile damage.
What else would I do with my fit? I could drop a resist module for propulsion, but that's about it.....
also, marauders have a bigger sig, and if you're fitting short range dps like a lot of people do, then the tank means a lot more to you than a sniper. Bastion will do just that for all but the Golem ontil the fix torps. There will be plenty of people that fit short range weapons for added dps since bastion buffs range..
Oh, and just cause my fit has that kind of tank doesn't mean everyone will.
If i wish to overtank, that's up to me. |

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2115
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:28:00 -
[4640] - Quote
I have to agree with the suggestion of others: remove Golem's TP bonus and replace it with an explosion radius bonus.
It was always a pain using multiple TP with a Golem anyways. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
517
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:33:00 -
[4641] - Quote
anyone know when these go up on test? |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Adocsalo Bt.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:51:00 -
[4642] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I have to agree with the suggestion of others: remove Golem's TP bonus and replace it with an explosion radius bonus.
It was always a pain using multiple TP with a Golem anyways.
This is from the first page: "As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem."
Maybe less pain then? |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 18:09:00 -
[4643] - Quote
Alright.
Part of me is relieved that we've gone back to iteration 1, because despite the role being... Not Maraud-y at all, bonuses actually work together and aren't what a two week old player thinks "versatility" is.
The other part of me is still sad that apparently we will have to have either iteration 1, or iteration 2, and "fast battleship" Marauders will likely never be a thing. That and possible nerfs to all the pirate battleships to keep THEM from being 'fast battleships' as well (especially the Machariel, I'm predicting). |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
167
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 18:28:00 -
[4644] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
The fit I have built has that kind of tank, with 1015dps out to max target range, 2 tp's, and doesn't even factor in drone damage. That's pure cruise missile damage.
What else would I do with my fit? I could drop a resist module for propulsion, but that's about it.....
also, marauders have a bigger sig, and if you're fitting short range dps like a lot of people do, then the tank means a lot more to you than a sniper. Bastion will do just that for all but the Golem ontil the fix torps. There will be plenty of people that fit short range weapons for added dps since bastion buffs range..
Oh, and just cause my fit has that kind of tank doesn't mean everyone will.
How about 3 painters, mwd, 3 slot tank and requesting a fast and agile torp Golem instead of the brick it is already? Am I really the only person that wants the Golem actually useful with torps again(reasonable fast, with a bigger velocity bonus to increase range and with explosion velocity bonus instead of the active tanking one) instead of being geared to towards being the lazy mans L4 ship? The golem needs a fix for torps and it needs it here and now with the changes to marauders instead betting your cards on a torp buff(given CCPs record a CM nerf is far more likely).
Joe Risalo wrote:If i wish to overtank, that's up to me.
It is but stop pretending the changes would free slots or make them more useful for pve, they don't if you use your marauder in a effective manner(like with the suggested tank numbers). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1444
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 18:46:00 -
[4645] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions? Because it's true. If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you. When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit. However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster. In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range. Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships. So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets... I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake... Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head. I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder. Yea.. MJD + range = you really don't need a tank proper man. These ships will work nicely as counter snipers. t3 bc's and bs's fitted for sniping have always been a pain for people to deal with.. With marauders you can either MJD right on top of them, or you can just bastion and tank them while sniping right back at them... Currently, there's not really anything to counter t3 bs and bc snipers... iteration 1 will change this, and Marauders will still be countered by brawlers due to tracking issues. Edit... granted... marauders are expensive, so them being used in pvp at all is pretty slim.... With that in mind, why do we really care so much about pvp funtionality if we're all well aware that they're too pricey to bring to a fight? Some people will use them at times, but even if they had a hard pvp centric design, they still wouldn't get used much... Just look at blops...
Blops are **** though so thats a bad comparison.
And price isn't an issue really, most of the bigger low sec alliances regularly field fleets with an average ship cost around a bill. Its just a question of power and survivability. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
517
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 18:49:00 -
[4646] - Quote
The Djego wrote: How about 3 painters, mwd, 3 slot tank and requesting a fast and agile torp Golem instead of the brick it is already? Am I really the only person that wants the Golem actually useful with torps again(reasonable fast, with a bigger velocity bonus to increase range and with explosion velocity bonus instead of the active tanking one) instead of being geared to towards being the lazy mans L4 ship? The golem needs a fix for torps and it needs it here and now with the changes to marauders instead betting your cards on a torp buff(given CCPs record a CM nerf is far more likely).
Honestly, I don't see why we can't have both.. the ONLY reason for the hull nerfs, instead of hull buffs is specifically to force bastion and MJD onto Marauder Pilots.
While I love bastion for the tank and spank of PVE, i do NOT agree with the hull itself being nerfed.
It wasn't Necessary.
CCP could have left the hulls alone other than the needed buffs to make it valid.. Then, added a MWD bonus and possibly still retain the MJD bonus as you probably wouldn't be able to fit both at once.
The issue with the torp Golem isn't the Golem's fault, but rather the fault of torps.
I have said many times that while iteration 1 was way better, there was no purpose to hull nerfs other than forcing modules.
If CCP would have balanced the hulls the way I just suggested, then we'd have a decent hull that wouldn't help nor hender bastion. The bastion module essentially changes the ships in a way that would suggest the nerfs to the hulls were unnecessary.
Quote:
It is but stop pretending the changes would free slots or make them more useful for pve, they don't if you use your marauder in a effective manner(like with the suggested tank numbers).
It does help them in pve. With my Golem, i can drop a tank module to fit a MJD/MWD... That helps me doesn't it? I might even be able to drop another tank Mod and fit another tp, or a web if I see fit, or whatever you think you might need.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 19:59:00 -
[4647] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The Djego wrote: How about 3 painters, mwd, 3 slot tank and requesting a fast and agile torp Golem instead of the brick it is already? Am I really the only person that wants the Golem actually useful with torps again(reasonable fast, with a bigger velocity bonus to increase range and with explosion velocity bonus instead of the active tanking one) instead of being geared to towards being the lazy mans L4 ship? The golem needs a fix for torps and it needs it here and now with the changes to marauders instead betting your cards on a torp buff(given CCPs record a CM nerf is far more likely).
Honestly, I don't see why we can't have both.. the ONLY reason for the hull nerfs, instead of hull buffs is specifically to force bastion and MJD onto Marauder Pilots. While I love bastion for the tank and spank of PVE, i do NOT agree with the hull itself being nerfed. It wasn't Necessary. CCP could have left the hulls alone other than the needed buffs to make it valid.. Then, added a MWD bonus and possibly still retain the MJD bonus as you probably wouldn't be able to fit both at once. The issue with the torp Golem isn't the Golem's fault, but rather the fault of torps. I have said many times that while iteration 1 was way better, there was no purpose to hull nerfs other than forcing modules. If CCP would have balanced the hulls the way I just suggested, then we'd have a decent hull that wouldn't help nor hender bastion. The bastion module essentially changes the ships in a way that would suggest the nerfs to the hulls were unnecessary. Quote:
It is but stop pretending the changes would free slots or make them more useful for pve, they don't if you use your marauder in a effective manner(like with the suggested tank numbers).
It does help them in pve. With my Golem, i can drop a tank module to fit a MJD/MWD... That helps me doesn't it? I might even be able to drop another tank Mod and fit another tp, or a web if I see fit, or whatever you think you might need. The Golem can't be looked at without examining the weapon systems used.
One thing that I see as a problem is that we are in the same position with Cruise missiles as heavy missiles were pre-nerf. No real reason to fit HAMS before the nerf. Now Torps are a different animal than HAMS, firstly because they can be fielded on Stealth Bombers. Balancing must be done carefully. I also do not feel that Cruise need a nerf. They are in a great place right now. Torps need a slight buff, or something that differentiates them from cruise. Right now they do barely more damage to really large non moving targets and that is it. Rage Torps do quite a bit more damage, but they really can't hit anything sub-cap, so you won't be applying all that damage. Torp range is too low as well, and they get to target slower than cruise. RHML are going to be really attractive as well, and we cannot discard the high level of applied damage they will create.
The Golem isn't that attractive to me past the CNR. It saves ammo, and thats about it. The tank would be really nice for pvp, but I am not going to fly it there (mostly because I don't have time to pvp), and I can lose 5 or so cruise Raven's for every one Golem. At 70km fury cruise is a beast, and you don't have to count volleys at that range either. You are also out of range of most incoming damage there as well.
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
78
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 20:23:00 -
[4648] - Quote
The Djego wrote:It is but stop pretending the changes would free slots or make them more useful for pve, they don't if you use your marauder in a effective manner(like with the suggested tank numbers).
You know, most people don't multibox multiple alts to run PvE with, which is the only way they could conceivably be worse. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
246
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 20:43:00 -
[4649] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Torps need a slight buff, or something that differentiates them from cruise. Really all they need is a slight increase to rate of fire, drastically increase the acceleration and reduce the flight time. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1444
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 20:49:00 -
[4650] - Quote
What torp needs is an increased capacity for the launchers, they don't need a buff at all. We can't just buff cruise, then buff torps, then buff cruise.
If something gets overbuffed it should be nerfed back. Everything else shouldn't be buffed to catch up. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 21:05:00 -
[4651] - Quote
Ok, hmm ... I see something here. Marauders will be the best hisec mining ship, Let's see:
* No bumping people off belts in Bastion mode. * Players need billions in isk to alpha gank your Bastion tank * Sit in Bastion and put webs on other friendly mining ships to help them align and warp faster. * Are Mining Lasers "large turrets" so people can get 25% more range? No? Damn. Oh well.
In all seriousness, I joined this game to fly pretty ships around. I've been training a Marauder and I will damn fly it regardless of how gimpy weird they get, I'll probably just cry a lot while doing so, but /shrug.
Anyway. I already fly around in a Rattlesnake for missions as my net was flaky (better now, I was monitoring it with an app called JD Auto speed tester, and a 1-2 months ago it was HORRIBLE from 8pm to 2am).
I don't currently see flying a Marauder improving things. I'm not worried about extra damage or tank, I was hoping for more convenience/fun. If I had to once again make up random stuff that would make me park the Rattlesnake and jump into say, a Golem, I might if I could:
* Mount a CovOps cloak * Salvage/tractor better * Dial-up range MJD * Use Bastion Mode like a Death Blossom, meaning short duration, penalty to gun ranges, but high spike DPS, that could actually make me MORE vulnerable to damage for short periods - say it syphons from other systems - ie the reverse of now.
Seems like Bastion is a mode where you turn it ON because if you don't, the DPS will kill you, yet it locks you in place. It's like putting on a suit or armor hoping that the guy with a knife won't find a gap to stab you, and that he gets bored and leaves.
I'd rather throw off my armor, pick up a second battleaxe and charge the bastard. If I make a mistake in my abilities now, at least it's a more interesting death. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 21:17:00 -
[4652] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:What torp needs is an increased capacity for the launchers, they don't need a buff at all. We can't just buff cruise, then buff torps, then buff cruise.
If something gets overbuffed it should be nerfed back. Everything else shouldn't be buffed to catch up.
That would be fine with me. Something extra, and reduce the fitting costs, as they have the same backwards fitting that HAMS used to have.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
249
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 21:51:00 -
[4653] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Ok, hmm ... I see something here. Marauders will be the best hisec mining ship... Good one. And yeah, they'll pretty much be ungankable. They might even be the best low-sec mining ships. :D "I spent a year training a Golem so I could mine ore!" I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kinis Deren
The Nyan Cat Pirates Disband.
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 22:33:00 -
[4654] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:My thoughts: When they were introduced after Trinity, the purpose of the marauder class battleships was PvE, and PvE only. The high price, the horrible sig radius, and terrible sensor strength; all for the purpose to make them useless in combat (with the notable exception of some Alliance Tournements.)That was their role, and since then, they have done their job, when and where expected.
So I fail to understand CCP's current charge in trying to force these adequately preforming ships into new or additional roles, a move which looks dangerously like it will end with these ships trying to multi-task, but end up preforming in none. If I want to field a billion ISK ship, I'll bring my carrier. Capital tank, capital dps, and capital fleet.
My golem exterminates rats, and it works just fine.
Just a thought - was CCP's intention to provide a hi sec customs office eating machine since the capitals you mentioned would obviously not be allowed into hi sec?
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 22:35:00 -
[4655] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
a¦á_a¦á Yeah i am a bit disappointed in these changes, and even angered as i was when it was first posted....
Please answer this question, this question that all the eve players interested in the ship are asking even if in not the same words....
My only question is What is this ships intended purpose? What is its role? Where is the situation where it would make sense to use this ship over any other given its massive skill and isk costs? I understand it may not be "straight up better" than any other ship, but given its massive costs it needs to have a use.
Ive heard theories that it will be a great pvp sniper for small gangs, and that it will be great for nullsec pve solo, if its something like that then at least we have an answer, even though that would be a disappointing purpose for the ship.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
250
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 22:36:00 -
[4656] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:Just a thought - was CCP's intention to provide a hi sec customs office eating machine since the capitals you mentioned would obviously not be allowed into hi sec? POCO shooter, POS shooter, Miner2048er... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
526
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 22:42:00 -
[4657] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE.... Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect.. You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode....
Even a pair of Anciliary boosters is already oveertankign with basion mode :P |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 22:56:00 -
[4658] - Quote
If marauders have to be changed to one iteration or another, I would rather have the first. First iteration leaves ship bonuses that actually work together intact. That is the most important thing, a ship that feels and handles like it has a unity of purpose, rather than trying to shoehorn sniping bonuses and short-range web bonuses onto a single hull. Marauders would've needed web range bonuses like the Arazu has point bonuses if you wanted webs to be viable for a long-range ship (which is what the MJD bonuses told the players you were trying to do).
Still nitpicky about a couple things, but now that marauder hulls can keep their unity of purpose, I can do what EVE pilots do and adapt. Drone bay nerf for one seemed wholly unnecessary but I noticed with changes to drone aggro that happened when I was gone, I seldom use anything bigger than lights anyway--blap all frigates in room, deploy lights for supplemental dps and in the unlikely event something does aggro, they're fast enough to get back to drone bay. So will prolly keep around 7 lights (2 spares) with the balance salvage drones.
One big thing, however, and it is a big thing:
I've reacted to the propulsion nerf not by going from AB fit to MJD fit as you state clearly in the first post you would like to encourage, but rather going from AB fit to MWD fit. 100km all-or-nothing jumps is a no-go for hulls that work with 70km falloff (could use barrage ammo instead of RF fusion, i guess, but would lose selecting damage type vs. non-angels). And I don't want to re-visit math classes ten years ago forgotten to position my ship (yeah, I appreciate mechanics involving math like sig/speed tanking, angular velocity vs. tracking, etc. but I *WILL NOT* crack open a trig textbook just to get from Point A to Point B). MWD is enough to preserve acceptable mobility for my needs even after velocity nerf and "trading in" my AB for a MWD got me a MWD with a manageable instead of tank-busting cap penalty.
If you want to encourage MJD use on marauders, give marauders a role bonus that makes MJD distance at least semi-selectable.
Even a small handful of selectable jump distances (say 25, 50, 75, 100 km) would be acceptable to encourage MJD use.
Also with the addition of deployable tractor beam platforms (what is the range on those btw?), marauder role bonus to tractors is now WHOLLY redundant (unless maybe bonus applies to the deployable as well). Change tractor bonus to salvage bonus plz. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
251
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 23:53:00 -
[4659] - Quote
50km or 100km. Anything less than 50km just doesn't seem that overly beneficial. A previous suggestion that's been made is to cause a MJD abort to default to 50km instead of 100km. No scripts, and not really a lot of development or programming effort required. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

MuntadaralZaidi
Haven Fedayeen Munitions Corporation
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 00:18:00 -
[4660] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:50km or 100km. Anything less than 50km just doesn't seem that overly beneficial. A previous suggestion that's been made is to cause a MJD abort to default to 50km instead of 100km. No scripts, and not really a lot of development or programming effort required.
I threw out 25km increments for a reason. Lots of acceleration gates are in the ~25km range so a 25km MJ would be of use if you entered room, parked in bastion and shot it, then wanted to get near gate without cracking open trig book (assuming CCP listens to those who play the game for fun, not to relive boring high school trig classes).
Also dunno about the other three marauders as I fly Vargur, but 75km would be a pretty useful distance to MJ to as well when you need to blap a bunch of frigs within a larger mob. Enough range to frig blap at leisure (some missions with lots of frigs like Mordus Headhunters, 50km might be a bit too close), and by time you've gone through enough gun cycles to get all the frigs, the larger enemies are starting to trickle into your effective damage application range.
I know Iteration 1 of Bastion wants to turn 70km falloff into somewhere around 90 falloff, but still if you only need 75 km range to blap the frigs/kill higher dps rats before they get in range to effectively shoot back, why go out 100? That 25 km extra falloff is still an applied dps loss over what could be done, Bastion range bonus or not.. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
519
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 00:19:00 -
[4661] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE.... Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect.. You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode.... Even a pair of Anciliary boosters is already oveertankign with basion mode :P
That's a problem with ASBs, not Marauders. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
251
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 00:29:00 -
[4662] - Quote
MuntadaralZaidi wrote:I threw out 25km increments for a reason. Lots of acceleration gates are in the ~25km range so a 25km MJ would be of use if you entered room, parked in bastion and shot it, then wanted to get near gate without cracking open trig book (assuming CCP listens to those who play the game for fun, not to relive boring high school trig classes). I'm not trying to say you're lazy, but you're lazy.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 01:19:00 -
[4663] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)
yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE.... Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect.. You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode.... Even a pair of Anciliary boosters is already oveertankign with basion mode :P That's a problem with ASBs, not Marauders.
Well, i hope they nerf it, perhaps so only one asb, or just make them less powerful esp on marauder.
I would like to see the marauders tank get nerfed, they said themselves it might be "too powerful" the only thing it has going for it is its tank, which has massive drawbacks, i am hoping they nerf even that so they can see the feedback for what they made.... you would think 200+ posts would be enough, but i guess we will see what happens after test server
goddamnit i really want to like this ship, and i want to use bastion mode, but its so... useless.............. |

Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
262
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 01:20:00 -
[4664] - Quote
hey, for my level 5s I actually need the MJD to get the **** away from the scorching damage, don't touch that **** yo |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
251
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 01:27:00 -
[4665] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:hey, for my level 5s I actually need the MJD to get the **** away from the scorching damage, don't touch that **** yo Pretty sure that's the only aspect of the rebalance that's remained consistent. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 01:41:00 -
[4666] - Quote
People say the ASB is OP, but the fact is it can only be used for a maximum of 45 seconds before needing 60 to reload. If you can take the damage for 60 seconds without using active reps, then you should be able to perma pulse tank with a normal booster anyway. Using dual ASBs is the only way you can even get close to the the statistical tanking values of the ASB. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
519
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 02:46:00 -
[4667] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:People say the ASB is OP, but the fact is it can only be used for a maximum of 45 seconds before needing 60 to reload. If you can take the damage for 60 seconds without using active reps, then you should be able to perma pulse tank with a normal booster anyway. Using dual ASBs is the only way you can even get close to the the statistical tanking values of the ASB.
The reload time of ASBs and AARs is there specifically because they're so powerful and need some kind of draw back. If CCP is fine with duel ASB, then so be it.. However, They need to have a draw back, but perhaps their drawback shouldn't be so big, so that we can reduce them to on per ship..
Perhaps 45 and 45...or maybe 45 and 30.. Something to make them not as easily countered, but not so powerful as to have two. |

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 07:15:00 -
[4668] - Quote
Maybe give them 3rd rig?
Because they don't have true T2 resists |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 07:28:00 -
[4669] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
395
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 07:53:00 -
[4670] - Quote
i did some looking into the resistance numbers.
the original marauder t2 resistances were assigned when ccp didnt want to go overboard with t2 resistances (back in 07).
well, i added up the resistance on the paladin and averaged them. i came up with 56.875% as an average.
to me, after seeing how ships performed in space against a variety of targets, one niche thing we could do would be to just give them balanced resistance. like you did on the gnosis.
base 56.9% is pretty high, why dont we just give them a balanced 50% across the board? this would coincide with DCII AND bastion mode. marauders would be setup to fight all enemies of the empire, not just minmatar, but they could hit blood raiders or whatever.
this would make incursion runners happy, worm hole guys happy and pretty much everyone when your ship can omni tank really well and there are no needs for specific flavored rigs. 2 EANP II's and we have a great balanced tank. DC II, bastion and it would be 75 or so across the board.
just a thought. |
|

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 08:15:00 -
[4671] - Quote
With rubicon tractor structure change tractor bonus to something else.
Remove 8th high slot. Give Paladin and Kronos 5th med slot, Golem 5th low slot, vargur 6th low slot |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 08:39:00 -
[4672] - Quote
Again i insist that tech 2 resistances are better, CCP should put the T2 resists and the 37.5% rep bonus on these ships It wont OP them, most ships only gain slightly from them, the biggest gainer is the Golem, as it can fit a 2 slot midslot and 1 DC tank. Freeing up an extra mid for it's TP See spreadsheet for details on tank levels Now with Overheat calculations and another iteration of bonuses
Also i makes all the ships effective PVP and PVE boats, if we stick with the current iteration people will not use them in pvp as it is too easy to kill one no in bastion with a normal fleet, due to low resists, and easy to kill buffer fit ones in bastion as they have 1 minute of no RR assistance and on a ship with only about 400k EHP thats more than enough time to kill it.
Also being stuck at 0m/s just opens you up to being shot by anything. a minute in eve is about long enough to light cyno, jump dread - siege - lock - fire 2-3 volley. Yay easy 1-2bill kill. And lets mention that when the weapon timer kicks in it has another 30secs after coming out of bastion before it can jump. #deadinthewater |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 08:40:00 -
[4673] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:i did some looking into the resistance numbers.
the original marauder t2 resistances were assigned when ccp didnt want to go overboard with t2 resistances (back in 07).
well, i added up the resistance on the paladin and averaged them. i came up with 56.875% as an average.
to me, after seeing how ships performed in space against a variety of targets, one niche thing we could do would be to just give them balanced resistance. like you did on the gnosis.
base 56.9% is pretty high, why dont we just give them a balanced 50% across the board? this would coincide with DCII AND bastion mode. marauders would be setup to fight all enemies of the empire, not just minmatar, but they could hit blood raiders or whatever.
this would make incursion runners happy, worm hole guys happy and pretty much everyone when your ship can omni tank really well and there are no needs for specific flavored rigs. 2 EANP II's and we have a great balanced tank. DC II, bastion and it would be 75 or so across the board.
just a thought.
Many people bofoere you (including me ) have said that, but CCP ignored that...
What they shoud do is keep the maruders as for mk1 version AND introduce another ship (hull) that would use marauder skill and would be good at PvP, Incursions etc. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
994
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 09:14:00 -
[4674] - Quote
@ CCP, after playing with a few fits on eft, i really think that the proposed changes will be fine PROVIDED you add an additions low/mid slot to them. I'm just here for the likes |

Chance Harper
Northen Star Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 09:48:00 -
[4675] - Quote
most changes look fine for me but there are 2 things that bother me.
1. Reduced speed.. bad idea i really dont need a MJD in missions. 2. reduced Drone bandwith/bay
Marauders were ment as mission running BS. Reducing Drones will make running missions a pay in the a** killing off all the lil pesky frigs and drones with the big guns will be a pain. Reaching gates to get to the next pocket needs max speed and not MJD, in most missions gates arent that far away that i would need a MJD.
1 Buff i would like to see is to give them more sensor strength, how can it be that a technicaly more advanced ship has worse sensor than its standard counter part? A Raven has a higher sensor strength than a Golem. In missins you get jammed like crazy and there isnt really a way to counter it, not even with modules that are meant to counter it.
But then again, since i play somerblink, mission running became pointless. I make more isk on somerblink in 1hr than running missions for 2 days. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:14:00 -
[4676] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:MuntadaralZaidi wrote:I threw out 25km increments for a reason. Lots of acceleration gates are in the ~25km range so a 25km MJ would be of use if you entered room, parked in bastion and shot it, then wanted to get near gate without cracking open trig book (assuming CCP listens to those who play the game for fun, not to relive boring high school trig classes). I'm not trying to say you're lazy, but you're lazy. 
If the stupid gates were solid we could just MJD straight into them and stop and give them a nasty dent to remind them not to mess with Marauders. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
528
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:16:00 -
[4677] - Quote
Current amarauders proposal is effectively weaker than the ones in TQ. THe speed/signature they are loosing is WAY more relevant than a button thnat makes you a fat static target that can be ignored until later int he fight because you are not going anywhere.. while at same time not being any more dangeorus than you were when you could still move. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8129
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:20:00 -
[4678] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.
A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
497
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:30:00 -
[4679] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Current amarauders proposal is effectively weaker than the ones in TQ. THe speed/signature they are loosing is WAY more relevant than a button thnat makes you a fat static target that can be ignored until later int he fight because you are not going anywhere.. while at same time not being any more dangeorus than you were when you could still move.
Only that static button frees up so many mid slots you can afford to cram some more propulsion or even additional webifiers in that thing. 
Really I don't get your problem, all that whining looks like "waaah Igaddachangemahsetap!" to me. 
No offense, but after 230 pages of crying it's really hard to read something different into your post. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
528
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:31:00 -
[4680] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
A web STRENGHT bonus yes. but if was a web RANGE bonus... |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
497
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:38:00 -
[4681] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote: A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
web STRENGHT bonus yes. but if was a web RANGE bonus... That might be nice too, but I bet there'd be someone crying about that in about 0.5 seconds after CCP anounced a change like that. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
994
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:42:00 -
[4682] - Quote
Yeah giving marauders a web range brawlers would enable them to play the role of a sniper AND a brawler. I'm just here for the likes |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:46:00 -
[4683] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
265
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 10:49:00 -
[4684] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ager Agemo wrote:so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?
bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets. That's the point though. They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp. If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship
For solo pvp, that 7.5% web would've been quite essential. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
497
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:04:00 -
[4685] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...
Nope. nobody would be stupid enough to fly into your web range. and why would they? You're sitting still after all. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:16:00 -
[4686] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets... Nope. nobody would be stupid enough to fly into your web range. and why would they? You're sitting still after all. People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

baltec1
Bat Country
8130
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:22:00 -
[4687] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...
Most ships will be out of range before you can kill them. That rep bonus is a lot more useful. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8130
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:23:00 -
[4688] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets... Nope. nobody would be stupid enough to fly into your web range. and why would they? You're sitting still after all. People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)
The vindicator is the ship you are looking for. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
497
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:33:00 -
[4689] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)
Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy... 
Not saying you usually don't have a tackler in your gang, but I think you know what I'm talking about. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:35:00 -
[4690] - Quote
Change tractor bonus for salvage drone bonus, with removing of 1high slot and giving them +25 drone bay. |
|

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 12:45:00 -
[4691] - Quote
I think the general consenous here is that an 8 high setup with 3 utilities is too much. the armour ships lack the ability to effectively fit tackle on the mids with prop mods - ATM you have MJD MWD/AB Cap booster Scram - still need web even if unbonused or a TC for close range tracking.
As for the shield ships the Golem need 1 more mid to fit the TP while fitting a good tank - 3 hardeners MJD dual ASB & scram The Vargur needs either a low or a mid, a case can be made for either, im leaning more towards the mid currently after running a fit on EFT, it really struggles to match the golem tank and fit a MJD and Scram. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 13:06:00 -
[4692] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I think the general consenous here is that an 8 high setup with 3 utilities is too much. the armour ships lack the ability to effectively fit tackle on the mids with prop mods - ATM you have MJD MWD/AB Cap booster Scram - still need web even if unbonused or a TC for close range tracking.
As for the shield ships the Golem need 1 more mid to fit the TP while fitting a good tank - 3 hardeners MJD dual ASB & scram The Vargur needs either a low or a mid, a case can be made for either, im leaning more towards the mid currently after running a fit on EFT, it really struggles to match the golem tank and fit a MJD and Scram. have you seen the paladin's stats? 8k base cap, +5% per level=10k cap, plus skills =12500 capacitor. all this plus an 8 cap per second recharge rate? cap injectors will be a thing of the past unless you seriously intend to take them into brawling range and be neuted.
i would prefer to stay 70km-100km away and snipe with mega pulse. if they get close, jump in a random direction and snipe from 70km-100km away. there is no NEED to go to bastion unless its favorable. you still get the rep rate bonus.
if they get close enough to scram you, yeah its prolly over unless you have friends. but, if u see peeps in local, siege red, wait for the timer then warp to a pos. go to station and switch ships.
the vargur snipes at 100km with 800mm ac. fight at range. the blaster kronos has to be a bit closer, but you fit weapons of point blank need in the first place.
i think cap injectors will be going away freeing up your mid slot.. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 13:06:00 -
[4693] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
The vindicator is the ship you are looking for.
The Kronos web bonus pre-dates the Vindicator by almost 3 years, and was the only choice for pure specialised Gallente characters, I've not seen any justification for it being removed.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 13:09:00 -
[4694] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets... Most ships will be out of range before you can kill them. That rep bonus is a lot more useful. Would you like to re-read what you wrote there and think on it?
Hint: 90% web...
Edit: And I was referring to reverting the falloff bonus back to the web.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 13:16:00 -
[4695] - Quote
I think they should remove another high slot for med or low slot, paladin and kronos need those meds especially, just look at vindi: more buffer, better scan res etc, faster more agile, bigger drone bay, better dps, bonus to web, 3rig slots, 5med slots. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
498
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 13:30:00 -
[4696] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I think the general consenous here is [...] That's exactly the problem.
There is no general consensus.
None. At all.
People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O
There is everything but general consensus there is none.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:06:00 -
[4697] - Quote
marVLs wrote:I think they should remove another high slot for med or low slot, paladin and kronos need those meds especially, just look at vindi: more buffer, better scan res etc, faster more agile, bigger drone bay, better dps, bonus to web, 3rig slots, 5med slots.
There's a reason pirate bs's have more slots. This is the same for faction and pirate of all class ships.
They have more fitting slots because they're designed to be more versatile. They don't specialize in anything specific.
However, t2 ships specialize, and when you're specialized you require less slots.
That said, I think the 8th high should be dropped and all the ships should be given an extra ....was gonna said mid or tank slot, but I think a low slot would go a long way on the Golem in allowing more fitting options with a CO-processor. |

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:07:00 -
[4698] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O There is everything but general consensus there is none. 
Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...)
Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...).
Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure...
Personally i will change: - tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot) - 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus - selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km) - +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot) - change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot) |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:19:00 -
[4699] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O There is everything but general consensus there is none.  Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...) Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...). Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure... Personally i will change: - tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot) - 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus - selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km) - +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot) - change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot)
I think you're missing the strengths that bastion will give to pve. The range doesn't really matter much to anyone, but if you like using short range weapons in pve, then it'll help since you'll be stuck in one place..
The tank bonus is awesome and is what will really help to make them more effective null and wh pve... probably even low pve as well. However, the kicker is the ewar immunity... THIS IS AWESOME!!! For a change Marauders will be usable in Caldari space. They may even help with people running different types of incursions. Last time I checked there was a specific type of incursions that no one runs due to ewar (sorry, I don't run incursions so i'm not sure which ones it is). However, you could warp the fleet in with some Marauders.. have them bastion and focus down jammers, then unbastion and join the rest of the fleet in mopping up the rest with logistics support..
granted, the HP nerfs will kinda hurt Marauders in fleets when it comes to logistics.
That said, I would like to reiterate a suggestion I have made on this thread before.
I really want CCP to strongly consider this.
7.5% BONUS TO SHIELD/ARMOR BOOST AMOUNT PER LEVEL ON LOCAL AND INCOMING REMOTE REP.
I think this would go a LONG way in making the hulls more acceptible in fleet combat.
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:22:00 -
[4700] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O There is everything but general consensus there is none.  Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...) Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...). Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure... Personally i will change: - tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot) - 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus - selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km) - +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot) - change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot) i like the dropping of the tractor beam bonus and applying it to salvage drones. thats a damn good idea. i do not want to get rid of the bastion mode. i think its going to suprise the crap out of everyone. the selectable mjd would be kewl as a script, but not a class bonus/feature. i can get behind the rof change. but thats a little much.
i dont fly the golem (in training) so i wont comment. but i will say do NOT make them close range boats. they are for longer ranges. make torps reach 60k like the blasters do. if you wanna deal close range damage, then ok, but note, these ships will be SO damn nasty at range. instead of only a 25% bonus, make it a 40% bonus to missile speed so torps can reach out there. turrets gain more of a bonus (tracking plus range), so give missiles a longer range.
i for 1 am looking forward to melting crap at 100km all day long. i just hope the tractor module goes out that far. or, we will jave to warp in at 50k, drop the tractor module, then mjd away. kill, maim, destroy then mjd back, salvage and loot. |
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:27:00 -
[4701] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:marVLs wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O There is everything but general consensus there is none.  Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...) Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...). Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure... Personally i will change: - tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot) - 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus - selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km) - +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot) - change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot) I think you're missing the strengths that bastion will give to pve. The range doesn't really matter much to anyone, but if you like using short range weapons in pve, then it'll help since you'll be stuck in one place.. The tank bonus is awesome and is what will really help to make them more effective null and wh pve... probably even low pve as well. However, the kicker is the ewar immunity... THIS IS AWESOME!!! For a change Marauders will be usable in Caldari space. They may even help with people running different types of incursions. Last time I checked there was a specific type of incursions that no one runs due to ewar (sorry, I don't run incursions so i'm not sure which ones it is). However, you could warp the fleet in with some Marauders.. have them bastion and focus down jammers, then unbastion and join the rest of the fleet in mopping up the rest with logistics support.. granted, the HP nerfs will kinda hurt Marauders in fleets when it comes to logistics. That said, I would like to reiterate a suggestion I have made on this thread before. I really want CCP to strongly consider this. 7.5% BONUS TO SHIELD/ARMOR BOOST AMOUNT PER LEVEL ON LOCAL AND INCOMING REMOTE REP. I think this would go a LONG way in making the hulls more acceptible in fleet combat.
marauders will not be useful in incursions - all incursions have jammers and we simply take them out. So far there was a blue post that said the marauder could tank the first room of a vg (smallest incursion site people run) and that it had to sacrifice its already lacking dps in order to fit the tank for just that one wave.
So even if you could tank a site, there is no reason to as your dps is reduced significantly compared to other ships. But lets say you did - then you can have ONLY marauders. Because if you have anything else, then you also need a logi to rep them, and if you have 1 logi you will need several more depending on site size in order to rep the person who needs reps, and to rep the other logies.
marauders will be useless in incursions. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
500
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:32:00 -
[4702] - Quote
marVLs wrote:- change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot) Right now Cruise missiles are better than torps, because they are just that. Better than torps... There's no reason not to use Cruise missiles.
And that changes would make cruise missiles even better.
Imaghine flinging +1k DPS at 200km without the need of fitting rigs or extra modules for increased damage application. That's the kind of better we're talkin about with that change. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1275
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:34:00 -
[4703] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Vulfen wrote:I think the general consenous here is [...] That's exactly the problem. There is no general consensus.None. At all. People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O There is everything but general consensus there is none. 
The only thing that is guaranteed is the ship class will be nerfed badly for PvE activities. Especially high end ones like Incursions.
Whatever the null sec cartels get as the final modifications, rest assured they will ruin the ship for high sec activities. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:37:00 -
[4704] - Quote
Since we are changing back to the original itteration, why dont we start again with the problems with that version?
what the **** is with a siege mode with no damage bonus?
Range bonus, tank bonus, mjd bonus, What ?
hp nerf speed nerf, then in siege mode, 0ms and no rr
i mean in the end i guess i will use this mutilated abomination. If its going to suck this hard can we get better drone space (not even bandwidth, just cargo ok?) and a bonus to salvage drones? Give us something "nice" if the ship is going to be useless.
thanks. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 14:53:00 -
[4705] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Ok, hmm ... I see something here. Marauders will be the best hisec mining ship, Let's see:
* No bumping people off belts in Bastion mode. * Players need billions in isk to alpha gank your Bastion tank * Sit in Bastion and put webs on other friendly mining ships to help them align and warp faster. * Are Mining Lasers "large turrets" so people can get 25% more range? No? Damn. Oh well.
In all seriousness, I joined this game to fly pretty ships around. I've been training a Marauder and I will damn fly it regardless of how gimpy weird they get, I'll probably just cry a lot while doing so, but /shrug.
Anyway. I already fly around in a Rattlesnake for missions as my net was flaky (better now, I was monitoring it with an app called JD Auto speed tester, and a 1-2 months ago it was HORRIBLE from 8pm to 2am).
I don't currently see flying a Marauder improving things. I'm not worried about extra damage or tank, I was hoping for more convenience/fun. If I had to once again make up random stuff that would make me park the Rattlesnake and jump into say, a Golem, I might if I could:
* Mount a CovOps cloak * Salvage/tractor better * Dial-up range MJD * Use Bastion Mode like a Death Blossom, meaning short duration, penalty to gun ranges, but high spike DPS, that could actually make me MORE vulnerable to damage for short periods - say it syphons from other systems - ie the reverse of now.
Seems like Bastion is a mode where you turn it ON because if you don't, the DPS will kill you, yet it locks you in place. It's like putting on a suit or armor hoping that the guy with a knife won't find a gap to stab you, and that he gets bored and leaves.
I'd rather throw off my armor, pick up a second battleaxe and charge the bastard. If I make a mistake in my abilities now, at least it's a more interesting death.
in all seriousness i would bring back the idea of making the marauder a "Luxury Battleship", since they clearly don't want to make it actually good at anything, make it fun. Some example bonuses:
increased drone bay salvage drone bonus salvage bonus better loot quality chance on targets killed by marauder ability to accept and complete missions from outside of station better tractor bonus / capitol tractor mining bonus (why the **** not) add a little billboard free fireworks walking-in-station inside ship ability to manufacture ammo on the go from loot/salvage ammo bay load drones from cargo into drone bay fitting services update info for hilarity make bastion mode into luxury mode give it a hacking bonus because why not
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:23:00 -
[4706] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Since we are changing back to the original itteration, why dont we start again with the problems with that version?
what the **** is with a siege mode with no damage bonus?
Range bonus, tank bonus, mjd bonus, What ?
hp nerf speed nerf, then in siege mode, 0ms and no rr
i mean in the end i guess i will use this mutilated abomination. If its going to suck this hard can we get better drone space (not even bandwidth, just cargo ok?) and a bonus to salvage drones? Give us something "nice" if the ship is going to be useless.
thanks.
Damn..
You are sore about this aren't you?
If you don't like iteration 1, then I would hope to god you think iteration 2 was a troll to make 1 sound better.
having said that, It is NOT a siege mode. It is a "Bastion" mode. Siege suggests damage Triage suggests reps Bastion suggests tanks.
As per Wikipedia
"A bastion is an angular structure projecting outward from the curtain wall of an artillery fortification. The fully developed bastion consists of two faces and two flanks with fire from the flanks being able to protect the curtain wall and also the adjacent bastions.[1] It is one element in the style of fortification dominant from the mid 16th to mid 19th centuries. Bastion fortifications offered a greater degree of passive resistance and more scope for ranged defense in the age of gunpowder artillery compared with the medieval fortifications they replaced."
If you really want to dig into things,
It's actually siege that doesn't fit its definition..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1276
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:35:00 -
[4707] - Quote
If CCP had come out and said , "We are increasing the scan res on the ship and improving tracking (or range) slightly (10%), and no other changes", people would have been thrilled. T2 resists, while nice, would have not been necessary to keep people happy.
But no, Raivi and Kil2 have been given the keys to the liquor cabinet and are now changing every ship in Eve into "Must DO PVP, screw PvE" ship. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3531
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:37:00 -
[4708] - Quote
Glad I didn't buy the marauders skillbook yet, what a disappointment this revert decision is.
Bastion Kronos without the web bonus fails when fit for blaster brawling, it can't hold targets inside blaster range, and with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
For 600-700mil hull this would be ok performance, but not at nearly billion.
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:39:00 -
[4709] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:If CCP had come out and said , "We are increasing the scan res on the ship and improving tracking (or range) slightly (10%), and no other changes", people would have been thrilled. T2 resists, while nice, would have not been necessary to keep people happy.
But no, Raivi and Kil2 have been given the keys to the liquor cabinet and are now changing every ship in Eve into "Must DO PVP, screw PvE" ship.
Nope... would have needed a pretty nice sensor strength bonus and a reduction in sig radius as well.. At the very least |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:49:00 -
[4710] - Quote
stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.
There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:53:00 -
[4711] - Quote
Roime wrote:Glad I didn't buy the marauders skillbook yet, what a disappointment this revert decision is.
Bastion Kronos without the web bonus fails when fit for blaster brawling, it can't hold targets inside blaster range, and with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
For 600-700mil hull this would be ok performance, but not at nearly billion.
how do you plan to catch and hold your target inplace when you have bastion active? or do you plan to mwd >>>web>>>bastion >>kill target>>>turn off bastion>>>mwd next target>>>web >>>bastion? ?
the o |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:57:00 -
[4712] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.
There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active.
You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus.
CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them.
So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus..
However,
That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 15:59:00 -
[4713] - Quote
Roime wrote: with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:02:00 -
[4714] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mer88 wrote:stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.
There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active. You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus. CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them. So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus.. However, That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one.
i notice people has been asking to remove the tractor beam way before the ccp announcement. I still would argue that tractor beam should be useful since you can use it as you move to the gate unlike a structure. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:07:00 -
[4715] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mer88 wrote:stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.
There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active. You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus. CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them. So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus.. However, That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one. i notice people has been asking to remove the tractor beam way before the ccp announcement. I still would argue that tractor beam should be useful since you can use it as you move to the gate unlike a structure.
I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing.. However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.
if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.
That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3531
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:15:00 -
[4716] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Roime wrote: with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close...
Which means you don't need the bastion mode either.
Confused ships.
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:17:00 -
[4717] - Quote
Roime wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Roime wrote: with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close... Which means you don't need the bastion mode either. Confused ships.
Unless you prefer to use close range weapons like a lot of people do.
I used to use a torp Golem till cruise missiles got better. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
169
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:22:00 -
[4718] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote: A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
web STRENGHT bonus yes. but if was a web RANGE bonus... That might be nice too, but I bet there'd be someone crying about that in about 0.5 seconds after CCP anounced a change like that.
A web range bonus is pretty pointless for L4 since it doesn't allow to keep sentry/long-range dps up or take out frigs at point blank, also for a lot of other applications the web strength is a lot better. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Ryder Starhawk
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:28:00 -
[4719] - Quote
Here is an Idea
If the Marauder is going to be a "Mini Dread" so to speak; why not give the ships the ability to fit Capital Weapons.
A gateway training path to an actual Dreadnaught. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:40:00 -
[4720] - Quote
Ryder Starhawk wrote:Here is an Idea
If the Marauder is going to be a "Mini Dread" so to speak; why not give the ships the ability to fit Capital Weapons.
A gateway training path to an actual Dreadnaught.
Now, where's the no like button? |
|

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
994
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:40:00 -
[4721] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)
Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy... 
There are very few pilots that have the skills and cunning to take a 1 bliionin isk battleship on a solo roam and survive. All the other people who do this are complete idiots and will die 99% of the time.
The marauders should have a web range bonus which any experienced pvp'er would be able to make use of. You could easily dual prop the ship which would enable you to MJD to your target and get into web range using a conventional prop mod. Once in range, you hit bastion and try to kill your target before they escape web/point range.
Personally i think the web bonus should be added as a bonus gained from the bastion module its self. This way it would not directly compete with pirate faction BS.
If these new marauders can be kited at point range, i don't think they will be worth using in pvp.
Ps. why do we need a tractor bonus now that ccp will be introducing that looting structure? I'm just here for the likes |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:56:00 -
[4722] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)
Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy...  There are very few pilots that have the skills and cunning to take a 1 bliionin isk battleship on a solo roam and survive. All the other people who do this are complete idiots and will die 99% of the time. The marauders should have a web range bonus which any experienced pvp'er would be able to make use of. You could easily dual prop the ship which would enable you to MJD to your target and get into web range using a conventional prop mod. Once in range, you hit bastion and try to kill your target before they escape web/point range. Personally i think the web bonus should be added as a bonus gained from the bastion module its self. This way it would not directly compete with pirate faction BS.If these new marauders can be kited at point range, i don't think they will be worth using in pvp. Ps. why do we need a tractor bonus now that ccp will be introducing that looting structure?
I am strongly against any changes if it's at the cost of the current build, apart from tractor bonus.
web strength/range bonus will in no way strengthen these ships if it costs them any other bonus. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 17:22:00 -
[4723] - Quote
Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.
You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).
You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.
You don't know how much it costs.
The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 17:26:00 -
[4724] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.
You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).
You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.
You don't know how much it costs.
The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away.
He's a quote from me..
Quote:I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing.. However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.
if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.
That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 17:33:00 -
[4725] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Dorororo wrote:Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.
You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).
You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.
You don't know how much it costs.
The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away. He's a quote from me.. Quote:I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing.. However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.
if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.
That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless.
I know, you're one of the few voices of reason in this entire topic. But even if CCP doesn't buff the range, a 48 km tractor is still WAY more useful than a 24 km tractor. Even if you use MJD, I'd still rather be able to MJD back and suck up everything in a 48 km radius than any other alternative. Can you imagine the aggravation from MJDing back and a can is 35km away?
Basically I agree with you that CCP is not going to give a substantial bonus back, and I'm extremely sceptical of the tractor structure until they release solid details about it.
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
101
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 17:42:00 -
[4726] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Fantastic
Edit: genuine about that If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 17:45:00 -
[4727] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Dorororo wrote:Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.
You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).
You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.
You don't know how much it costs.
The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away. He's a quote from me.. Quote:I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing.. However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.
if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.
That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless. I know, you're one of the few voices of reason in this entire topic. But even if CCP doesn't buff the range, a 48 km tractor is still WAY more useful than a 24 km tractor. Even if you use MJD, I'd still rather be able to MJD back and suck up everything in a 48 km radius than any other alternative. Can you imagine the aggravation from MJDing back and a can is 35km away? Basically I agree with you that CCP is not going to give a substantial bonus back, and I'm extremely sceptical of the tractor structure until they release solid details about it.
It's no less aggrivating than a wreck being 60 km from you and you're on CD for MJD |

PavlikX
You are in da lock
80
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 18:05:00 -
[4728] - Quote
1. Sensors must be the same as T1 hulls 2. Tractors must be buffed to the 75% of Noctis range 3. Damage role bonus must changed from 100% to the 125% 4. Acc. to p.3 another skill bonus must be here. 5. Armor repairer/Shield booster and web bonuses must remains 6. MJD role bonus must be changed to the possibility to choose jump distance. 25, 50, 75 or 100 rms. With 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 cooling time. 7. More resits - good idea
In this case i will be happy with bastion module. Long skills, big money must bring real profit. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 18:23:00 -
[4729] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)
Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy...  There are very few pilots that have the skills and cunning to take a 1 bliionin isk battleship on a solo roam and survive. All the other people who do this are complete idiots and will die 99% of the time. The marauders should have a web range bonus which any experienced pvp'er would be able to make use of. You could easily dual prop the ship which would enable you to MJD to your target and get into web range using a conventional prop mod. Once in range, you hit bastion and try to kill your target before they escape web/point range. Personally i think the web bonus should be added as a bonus gained from the bastion module its self. This way it would not directly compete with pirate faction BS.If these new marauders can be kited at point range, i don't think they will be worth using in pvp. Ps. why do we need a tractor bonus now that ccp will be introducing that looting structure? I am strongly against any changes if it's at the cost of the current build, apart from tractor bonus. web strength/range bonus will in no way strengthen these ships if it costs them any other bonus. Two of them already have a web bonus...
Best way forward? Revert them back to their TQ bonuses that everyone is already using, then get the Bastion/MJD bonuses to work properly.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 18:55:00 -
[4730] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Best way forward? Revert them back to their TQ bonuses that everyone is already using, then get the Bastion/MJD bonuses to work properly.
I very much agree. There is absolutely no need for any of the proposed nerfs, from drone bay to speed and mass.
Nerfs are for something that is OP. No one in their right mind thinks that a Marauder's drone bay, speed (lol) or mass is OP.
I've stated this previously and I will state it again. You should not nerf something in a misguided attempt to promote something else. All that will create is resentment among the player base instead of excitement over a new feature. Anyone who is not sold on the MJD/Bastion concept is not going to magically become happier if they are forced to use MJD/Bastion because of hull nerfs. Similarly, I do not understand how a drone nerf is going to "encourage" me to use my main weapons systems. It's not like I'm running with 4 tractors and 3 salvagers now and only doing dps with my Hammerhead IIs. |
|

Violet Winters
Angelic Eclipse.
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:02:00 -
[4731] - Quote
o/ CCP Ytterbium
Was wondering if we could have a confirmation on the skills required to use the Bastion Module, that way I can start training it, my Marauders V finishes soon.
Thanks, Rubicon looks very exciting! CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
|

Stjaerna Ramundson
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:25:00 -
[4732] - Quote
I would like bother you to put in also the 2. weaponsystem marauder for each faction.
Amarr System: Drone fokus Ship: Abaddon hull for the Tech II
Caldari System: Hybrid Weapon Ship: Rokh hull for the Tech II
Gallente System: Drone fokus Ship: Hyperion hull for the Tech II (old overwork fred for BS there is from a Guy a very very VERY nice picture of a new chassis for the Hyperion)
Minmatar System: Missile Ship: Maelstrom hull for the Tech II
Why these hulls: These ships don't have a Tech II Variant, so it is more ease of installation than in recreation of the other variant (i think)
That would be very nice, *still waiting for his Drone Marauder* ^^
1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erkl+ñrung, L+¦sungsans+ñtzen formulieren. 2. Beitrag enth+ñlt eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema. 3. Negative +äu+ƒerungen, Drohungen usw. gegen++ber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen. |

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:31:00 -
[4733] - Quote
What about those Rapid Heavy Missiles? Maybe some bonus on Golem for them? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4698
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:44:00 -
[4734] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Vulfen wrote:I think the general consenous here is [...] That's exactly the problem. There is no general consensus.None. At all. People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O There is everything but general consensus there is none.  The only thing that is guaranteed is the ship class will be nerfed badly for PvE activities. Especially high end ones like Incursions. Whatever the null sec cartels get as the final modifications, rest assured they will ruin the ship for high sec activities. True... but only if you assume that all high sec activities are performed by those with severe learning disabilities.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 20:49:00 -
[4735] - Quote
I don't know about you guys,
but I'm pretty sure AT 12 will decide if these ships are good at pvp, and whether or not they get nerfed.
That's how this works isn't it? |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 21:00:00 -
[4736] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure AT 12 will decide if these ships are good at pvp, and whether or not they get nerfed. That's how this works isn't it? 
the alliance tourney determines whether or not fozzie has to give ASB bonuses to yet more ships to make everyone fit ASB's to everything, and to a lesser extent how many hulls in a race's line up should be forced to convert to missile kites just cuz they got used once as missile kites and looked cool. ;)
or in this year's case...his MJD obsession, sentry drones get scared, i'ma thinking his disdain for space potatoes might cause a nerf X)
but i am agreed with you, CCP has a very short view of their own game given all the data they have.... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
524
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 21:07:00 -
[4737] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure AT 12 will decide if these ships are good at pvp, and whether or not they get nerfed. That's how this works isn't it?  the alliance tourney determines whether or not fozzie has to give ASB bonuses to yet more ships to make everyone fit ASB's to everything, and to a lesser extent how many hulls in a race's line up should be forced to convert to missile kites just cuz they got used once as missile kites and looked cool. ;) or in this year's case...his MJD obsession, sentry drones get scared, i'ma thinking his disdain for space potatoes might cause a nerf X) but i am agreed with you, CCP has a very short view of their own game given all the data they have....
Either that, or Goons/Test cry loud enough.... |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
46
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 21:12:00 -
[4738] - Quote
No t2 resists so they remain absolutely garbage outside of Bastion(even worse than before due to mass agility and velocity, oh and drones! nerf) so they'll be crap outside of soloing or 2-3man PVE stuff.
I'm sorry but I'm absolutely NOT impressed with this. It's actually the Oddesey/Rubicon change(s) I'm least impressed with. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
257
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 21:41:00 -
[4739] - Quote
Just stick with the existing Marauders and make these T3 Flagships instead. Give the Marauders some T2 resists and they should be good to go. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 21:50:00 -
[4740] - Quote
This is bothering me more and more. Why are marauders getting their speed and agility nerfed? MJD? Align speed 20s. 20s is 2.5 times slower then it is now. I usually spend 2-3 jumps between missions and do have to align frequently - this align time is ****ing me up greatly. Speed - another thing - torp golem DOES NOT need MJD. It has 40Km firing range, and I use it only in missions that benefit from that DPS at that range. Speed 80 instead of 120 is a 33%decrease. WHY? Again, I don't need MJD to warp 100KM all I need is 10-15 km to travel per mission. For those who can "get to any point within 2 jumps": yeah, but what are you going to do in a torp Golem when you are 100Km away from rats after first jump?
A somewhat better Missile boat for L4 becomes a low speed, slow turning brick, that you have to jump around with MJD, instead of just flying like a normal ship... |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
525
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 21:56:00 -
[4741] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:This is bothering me more and more. Why are marauders getting their speed and agility nerfed? MJD? Align speed 20s. 20s is 2.5 times slower then it is now. I usually spend 2-3 jumps between missions and do have to align frequently - this align time is ****ing me up greatly. Speed - another thing - torp golem DOES NOT need MJD. It has 40Km firing range, and I use it only in missions that benefit from that DPS at that range. Speed 80 instead of 120 is a 33%decrease. WHY? Again, I don't need MJD to warp 100KM all I need is 10-15 km to travel per mission. For those who can "get to any point within 2 jumps": yeah, but what are you going to do in a torp Golem when you are 100Km away from rats after first jump?
A somewhat better Missile boat for L4 becomes a low speed, slow turning brick, that you have to jump around with MJD, instead of just flying like a normal ship...
They got a speed nerf to force MJD. They got an agility nerf to balance bastion and give fast tackle 20 seconds to catch up to you before you can align and warp.
If we had a range buff to MJD and range selection, that wouldn't be bad at all. I might even give up the shorter cycle time for range selection. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 22:12:00 -
[4742] - Quote
Doed wrote:No t2 resists so they remain absolutely garbage outside of Bastion(even worse than before due to mass agility and velocity, oh and drones! nerf) so they'll be crap outside of soloing or 2-3man PVE stuff.
I'm sorry but I'm absolutely NOT impressed with this. It's actually the Oddesey/Rubicon change(s) I'm least impressed with.
+1 |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 22:26:00 -
[4743] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: They may even help with people running different types of incursions. Last time I checked there was a specific type of incursions that no one runs due to ewar (sorry, I don't run incursions so i'm not sure which ones it is).
The one type of incursions people ignore are Assault fleets because of NCNs they require both battleships and battlecruisers to complete and nobody really feels like hauling them around. And command ships are forced to go onto the battleship side when doing that site. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 22:35:00 -
[4744] - Quote
They could always compromise:
- T2 resists on the base hull
- Keep the 7.5%/lvl local repair bonus on the base hull
- Make Bastion slightly better than a DCU II 12% shield resists, 15% armor resists, 65% hull resists (only bastion or DCU can be fitted at one time)
This would effectively give all the hulls a low slot if you planned on using a DCU in your fit. It satisfies the call for T2 resists to help non mission based PVE. It is still equal to or better than the TQ version when tanking missions without bastion. And if you choose to use bastion, you recover the low slot of a DCU, have better tanking potential and range. That would be something I could get behind. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
182
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 01:25:00 -
[4745] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: in all seriousness i would bring back the idea of making the marauder a "Luxury Battleship", since they clearly don't want to make it actually good at anything, make it fun. Some example bonuses:
increased drone bay salvage drone bonus salvage bonus better loot quality chance on targets killed by marauder ability to accept and complete missions from outside of station better tractor bonus / capitol tractor mining bonus (why the **** not) add a little billboard free fireworks walking-in-station inside ship ability to manufacture ammo on the go from loot/salvage ammo bay load drones from cargo into drone bay fitting services update info for hilarity make bastion mode into luxury mode give it a hacking bonus because why not
Well, my point was that CCP could probably jam a bunch of weird stuff on the Marauders, still have them crappy at PvP, still have them average at PvE, but make them really useful to keep out for long periods of time doing different activities, rather then have people switch ships every 10 minutes.
If you change them too much you annoy the current people that use them. If you add a bunch of features that go along with what people are ALREADY using them for, you make them happy.
Screw the idea of taking a multi billion ship into PvP. I'd rather lose 5 normal battleships, and a Marauder will not be as fun to get blown up as 5 normal battleships.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Wry Salen
Flying Scissors Rock Paper Lasers
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 01:55:00 -
[4746] - Quote
You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
529
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 02:15:00 -
[4747] - Quote
Wry Salen wrote:You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE.
How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps????
Am I on crazy pills or something? |

Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
90
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 02:47:00 -
[4748] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Wry Salen wrote:You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE. How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps???? Am I on crazy pills or something?
Doubling the cycle time. So a 4 second cycle becomes an 8 second cycle. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
185
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 02:48:00 -
[4749] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Wry Salen wrote:You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE. How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps???? Am I on crazy pills or something?
I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8135
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 03:47:00 -
[4750] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct. A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me. If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets... Most ships will be out of range before you can kill them. That rep bonus is a lot more useful. Would you like to re-read what you wrote there and think on it? Hint: 90% web... Edit: And I was referring to reverting the falloff bonus back to the web.
And with most things MWDing around or attacking at much longer range than those webs it means that most ships can escape you. The kronos is too slow to effectivly use those webs and with all of those bonuses to damage projection and active tanking its clear this is no in your face brawler but more of a heavy sniper. The vindi is a much better ship to use with webs due to its faster speed meaning it can chase down its prey.
Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8135
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 03:49:00 -
[4751] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Wry Salen wrote:You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE. How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps???? Am I on crazy pills or something? I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it.
Nothing but arty boats. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
185
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 03:56:00 -
[4752] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Wry Salen wrote:You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE. How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps???? Am I on crazy pills or something? I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it. Nothing but arty boats.
Exactly. Can you say, "20k Alpha Arty Vargur"? |

Paja Patak
Whiskey Wing Devil Divided By Zero
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 04:47:00 -
[4753] - Quote
I personally don't like the changes on Marauder.. but that is just me. As a casual (solo) PVE player my use of Paladin so far was: get in the mission, start shooting everything with Tach's, drop salvage drones and bring loot / salvage closer so that drones can finish faster. Turn on AB to get closer / move away if DPS gets to heavy (rarely) . Web is nice for targets that got under 10k (rarely). This is (in my opinion and in my way of playing the game) most efficient way of using the ship. Other people will comment but... I drink "Stella" and will not criticize you for drinking "Bud Light", it is your choice 
I firmly believe that CCP is trying to get this type of ship in PVP - big time.
1. FC will order "warp to x" to this class and then "align to planet x", "MJD". Then you got 10 marauders (without even going into "battle stations" mode) one big as* gun that will kill all from 200k (if pilots are synchronized), one at the time. ROF for Tach is about 6-7 seconds, volley about 3,7k (or so) per ship - at this example we are talking of 37k per shoot using Aurora. After 41 second (providing that pilots have MJD operation to lvl 5) and 6 or 7 kills , this group is ready to change position, again 100k away...
2. This will be first "mini dread" that will be allowed in high sec... Possibilities are endless. Alliances in war will camp Jita and shoot at red's, go to bastion mode until additional DPS arrives etc... Fun for some.
If CCP continue with this, I will lose a good tool for PVE. Nightmare may not be a option since they are going to redesign that group as well. But, just as in RL, you adapt and, hopefully, prevail. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8135
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 04:58:00 -
[4754] - Quote
Quote:
I firmly believe that CCP is trying to get this type of ship in PVP - .
Thats exactly what their goal is. |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 05:15:00 -
[4755] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:They could always compromise:
- T2 resists on the base hull
- Keep the 7.5%/lvl local repair bonus on the base hull
- Make Bastion slightly better than a DCU II 15% shield resists, 17.5% armor resists, 65% hull resists (only bastion or DCU can be fitted at one time)
This would effectively give all the hulls a low slot if you planned on using a DCU in your fit. It satisfies the call for T2 resists to help non mission based PVE. It is still equal to or better than the TQ version when tanking missions without bastion. And if you choose to use bastion, you recover the low slot of a DCU, have better tanking potential and range. That would be something I could get behind.
I'm a fan of this. I would like the T2 resists. I would like the current hull bonuses to stay as they are on TQ. CCP can decide the specific amounts of % shield resist, % amror resists, and % hull resists for use of bastion mode.
It is a sort of compromise between the two options that are/were proposed changes. A damage bonus of some kind in bastion mode would actually make me consider using it. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3541
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 06:34:00 -
[4756] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup
Web bonus would make it viable.
That's all there really is to it tbh.
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 06:55:00 -
[4757] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:They could always compromise:
- T2 resists on the base hull
- Keep the 7.5%/lvl local repair bonus on the base hull
- Make Bastion slightly better than a DCU II 15% shield resists, 17.5% armor resists, 65% hull resists (only bastion or DCU can be fitted at one time)
This would effectively give all the hulls a low slot if you planned on using a DCU in your fit. It satisfies the call for T2 resists to help non mission based PVE. It is still equal to or better than the TQ version when tanking missions without bastion. And if you choose to use bastion, you recover the low slot of a DCU, have better tanking potential and range. That would be something I could get behind. I'm a fan of this. I would like the T2 resists. I would like the current hull bonuses to stay as they are on TQ. CCP can decide the specific amounts of % shield resist, % amror resists, and % hull resists for use of bastion mode. It is a sort of compromise between the two options that are/were proposed changes. A damage bonus of some kind in bastion mode would actually make me consider using it.
so far that would be the best proposed iteration for the bastion module - as a better DCII + ewar immunity for a price of being stuck in 1 place adding a med slot instead of high would be more beneficial because of the forced usage on MJD |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 08:02:00 -
[4758] - Quote
+1 to the last post!!
First: FIX the hull
- T2 or close to T2 resists, OR Noctis resi distribution to create an easy omni tank
- Higher scan resolution
- Change in PG/CPU
- Higher sensor strength
- If you want to disable use of sentrys use a limitation but keep the size up in the drone bay
- do not change speed, hull repair bonus
- change a damage modifier to bring them in sync with the faction battleship, do not make them OP
Use the suggested change in Bastion from the two previous posts
this would be already awesome |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 09:11:00 -
[4759] - Quote
@ CCP
Quote:GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 7M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers Fittings: 8500 PWG (+2000), 715 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300) Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 47.5% KIN / 40% THERM Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 34.375% KIN / 58.75% THERM Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325(+700) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 5.5 cap/s (-0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10 Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric Signature radius: 450(-125)
From the current iteration the golem is not going to have a bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile Lauchers, which have not yet been posted about (cant wait to see them though) will ALL missile based BS Ships be getting a bonus to the new launcher or is it going to be restricted to a few? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8135
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 09:40:00 -
[4760] - Quote
Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup Web bonus would make it viable. That's all there really is to it tbh.
Its a long ranged boat that is too slow to catch other battleships. Webs are near useless on such a ship, even more so with the vindi which would out class it in every way. |
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 11:20:00 -
[4761] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.
And with most things MWDing around or attacking at much longer range than those webs it means that most ships can escape you. The kronos is too slow to effectivly use those webs and with all of those bonuses to damage projection and active tanking its clear this is no in your face brawler but more of a heavy sniper. The vindi is a much better ship to use with webs due to its faster speed meaning it can chase down its prey. Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus. The 'new' Kronos is too slow for that - the old Kronos was fine. As to being a 'heavy sniper', a falloff bonus is a wasted bonus with Railguns, as the fast reloads allow you to always have the correct ammo loaded and not be shooting deep into falloff. Now with blasters, a better bonus, but not at the expense of webs, while also becoming fat and slow.
If anything, this just further illustrates the identity crisis of the 'new' Kronos, hence my earlier comment about reverting this back to TQ attributes, which everyone already uses, get the bastion/MJD bonuses sorted then move on from there.
It's a Duvolle boat at the end of the day - blasters are Duvolle's 'thing'
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 12:22:00 -
[4762] - Quote
20 sec allign time? I even did not consider this one ...
its pretty bad, I can live with lower speed but why so "low" agility? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8135
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 12:34:00 -
[4763] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:
Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.
That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.
I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.
And with most things MWDing around or attacking at much longer range than those webs it means that most ships can escape you. The kronos is too slow to effectivly use those webs and with all of those bonuses to damage projection and active tanking its clear this is no in your face brawler but more of a heavy sniper. The vindi is a much better ship to use with webs due to its faster speed meaning it can chase down its prey. Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus. The 'new' Kronos is too slow for that - the old Kronos was fine. As to being a 'heavy sniper', a falloff bonus is a wasted bonus with Railguns, as the fast reloads allow you to always have the correct ammo loaded and not be shooting deep into falloff. Now with blasters, a better bonus, but not at the expense of webs, while also becoming fat and slow. If anything, this just further illustrates the identity crisis of the 'new' Kronos, hence my earlier comment about reverting this back to TQ attributes, which everyone already uses, get the bastion/MJD bonuses sorted then move on from there. It's a Duvolle boat at the end of the day - blasters are Duvolle's 'thing'
Again, even the best webs will only cover antimatter range on blasters and the vindi will do that job a lot better. A ship that cannot move is a very bad ship to give a web bonus to. CCP are not going to give us a poor copy of the vindi. |

Major Killz
La Fraternite
239
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 12:55:00 -
[4764] - Quote
Web bonuses on them ALL to be honest with you. Use 80 - 90% stasis webifier bonus to the Golem and Paladin; Use increased range bonused stasis webifiers on the Kronos and Vargur... - Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos - Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 13:24:00 -
[4765] - Quote
Any change that would otherwise override the way marauders are used currently, any change that reduces current effectiveness, or any change that makes faction / pirate alternative seem better, will irritate ppl.
Don't force bastion + mjd: * revert all hull nerfs for now * possibly readdress when faction / pirate are rebalanced
And: * Address tractor structure vs tractor beams
If the structure essentially easily replaces tractor bonus, change tractor bonus to salvage bonus and maybe even integrate a similar or better structure functionality into bastion mode.
At this point I think most of the pve hate will be gone. Add a PvP use around the above / don't add / delay adding. |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1248
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 15:26:00 -
[4766] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Again, even the best webs will only cover antimatter range on blasters and the vindi will do that job a lot better. A ship that cannot move is a very bad ship to give a web bonus to. CCP are not going to give us a poor copy of the vindi.
The only way I'd see any web bonus useful in these ships is not by giving them a strength bonus but a range per level bonus under max new EAFs without links and making so with links you couldn't go further than 40km. Not an uber bonus you tell me and I'd agree with you but always better than a worst one so even the slowest of them could win some seconds to either get in range or put another shot or two on targets.
Anyway, still not convinced with any proposal this ship will be worth of its training sills requirements for anything else than high/low sec structure bashing and rats killing, still makes me sad panda. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
262
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 15:52:00 -
[4767] - Quote
So is there any truth to the rumor of the new Golem ship that looks like a platypus? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:47:00 -
[4768] - Quote
I wonder what the total increase in mission times will be when you add all of these things together:
- Lower base speed
- Higher base mass (lower acceleration for AB/MWD)
- Higher align time
- Lower warp acceleration/deceleration
- Lower top warp speed
Did I miss anything here? Depending on the number of jumps away the mission is located and the number of mission gates you have to use this could be a pretty significant increase in total mission time compared to today. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:47:00 -
[4769] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So is there any truth to the rumor of the new Golem ship that looks like a platypus?
I sincerely doubt it. |

Kenpo
61st Angry Angels
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 17:25:00 -
[4770] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So is there any truth to the rumor of the new Golem ship that looks like a platypus?
If anything the hull looks more like a tick than anything else. Still a good ship though  Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment. |
|

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 17:30:00 -
[4771] - Quote
Dang they removed the base T2 hull resists... I was starting to warm up to that idea.
Since this thread has blown into a clusterf*** of epic proportions, I'll just add it again...
If we combine features of Iteration 1 and Iteration 2, we'll have a nice setup.
Give the T2 resist bonuses back to the hull, but don't add that web bonus, I can do without the 7.5% per level tank bonus if I get the 100% tank bonus in Bastion and keep the resists. That way the ship isn't entirely vulnerable when out of Bastion mode like it is now (prop mod + active tank = faster cap depletion with nerfed capacitor recharge). This'll let people choose either a MWD or a MJD setup (because then you can MWD with the higher hull resists to where you want to be and lock it down to get the tank bonus, or MJD, users choice).
Even with 20m/s less for the exampled Golem, a MWD (especially Gist X) will allow it to move at around 800m/s. That with the smaller signature radius and higher resistances will work to take damage while moving into position before locking down and tanking back up.
But I'm just spitballing usage strategies here. Guess we will all find out when people start testing it in Sisi.
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 18:06:00 -
[4772] - Quote
There is a possibility that CCP will do as they see fit due to a lack of any mass consensus upon any of the changes (what is liked/disliked/what should be tweaked). Getting multiple people to "like" posts, people stating similar suggestions, and/or quoting others comments may give CCP a more sound reason for modifying the proposed changes.
Starting with general ideas and letting CCP decide on specific values/percentages for bonuses/resists/etc might make coming to a general agreement more feasible. Example: Instead of T2 resists; I will be suggesting an increase in resists (meaning at least better than current resists on TQ), and letting CCP decide how much better.
I will try to list these suggestions with respect to the order in which the proposed changes appear in the first post. I know a little bit about the game. I think these are good suggestions/tweaks to the Marauder changes. I could be wrong, and I am wrong fairly often. Just remember, these are from my current (limited) knowledge of this game.
Starting with one thing in mind: The Bastion Module is being pushed onto Marauders. CCP is determined to have this module go through no matter how good or bad it may be. Most players seem to feel that CCP is trying to make this class use the module to the extent of limiting other play styles with the class. This is the same with CCP pushing for Marauder pilots to use a Micro Jump Drive. These two ideas towards specialization should be attractive options without the detriment to current play-styles. I think the hull changes have a large effect on making some current play-styles less appealing.
What do Marauder pilots think about these points/suggestions: [/list] Bastion Module benefits and/or detriments stay as listed, let CCP decide/tweak percentages for all bonuses
Change the tractor beam Role Bonus (Notics and new deployable structures challenge the use of this); therefore, add a salvaging bonus and have CCP modify tractor beam/salvaging bonus percentages
An extra high slot is given, do not add the extra high slot. Add an extra medium or low slot (Bastion Module slot is low slot? I want to know which of the three slots would pilots rather see added)
Have an increase in resists, let CCP decide/tweak percentages (benefits class regardless of use of Bastion Module or not)
[/list]
If it is not listed above, then iteration #1 stats stay as listed. Only other point would be to give back some of the mobility. I do not understand the reasoning behind such a decrease in mobility when if people use the Bastion Module they are immobile. Just not 100% sure where I stand on that change and how it affects others play-styles.
I will definitely be testing out the changes on the test server as extensively as i can. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
532
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 18:27:00 -
[4773] - Quote
Look
1) Leave base hull as it is on TQ
2) Increase sensor strength to that of a weak t1
3) Give MWD cap bonus, AND leave MJD bonus
4) Either buff Tractor range while bastioned, or if the structure will be usable effectively on a Marauder, then exchange for a salvage bonus
5) Base hull gives tracking/exp radius bonus, while bastion reverts tracking/ exp radius for range
6) Bake 10% of the bastion resist bonus into the hull(not as a bonus), and reduce bastion resists to 20% (This would probably replace the current hull rep bonus, as we'll probably lose it to balance eventually anyway)
7) Make bastion insantly anchor in place. Anchored objects can't jump, warp, or move.
8) Remove 8th high slot, and instead give of extra mid or low depending on what's best for balance.
9) Increase scan res a bit
10) POSSIBLY allow a covert JJ.
10 is optional, just for spice.
Bascially, if you do this, then you have a base hull that is focused on brawling and tanking.. This is different as pirate bs's are focused on brawling and utility. Bastion will still be focused on ewar immunity, range, and OMFG tanking.
While MWD and MJD bonuses together may seem OP, you really have to look at what you give up to be able to fit both. Not to mention they're both blocked out by a warp scram.
This gives a fleet focus and a solo focus, but allows pirate bs's to retain the higher dps and utility.
IMO this would be a reallly good way to go on the balance as it suits both PVE and PVP in 2 different ways, one being more niche in pve, and the other being more niche in pvp. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
399
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 18:29:00 -
[4774] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So is there any truth to the rumor of the new Golem ship that looks like a platypus?
It'd look perfectly fine if they didn't completely bung up the wings like that- it's the wings that make it look absolutely ridiculous. If the wings were the same shape as per usual, it'd be fine.
The hammerhead bridge there looks great IMO, and I think it should turn up on more Caldari ships.
I'd genuinely enjoy flying this ship if they un-kinked the wings, and decided not to make it one of the slowest overall subcapitals ever forced to use MJDs. |

CODE NAME RAVEN
ARK-CORP
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:10:00 -
[4775] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Dang they removed the base T2 hull resists... I was starting to warm up to that idea.
Since this thread has blown into a clusterf*** of epic proportions, I'll just add it again...
If we combine features of Iteration 1 and Iteration 2, we'll have a nice setup.
Give the T2 resist bonuses back to the hull, but don't add that web bonus, I can do without the 7.5% per level tank bonus if I get the 100% tank bonus in Bastion and keep the resists. That way the ship isn't entirely vulnerable when out of Bastion mode like it is now (prop mod + active tank = faster cap depletion with nerfed capacitor recharge). This'll let people choose either a MWD or a MJD setup (because then you can MWD with the higher hull resists to where you want to be and lock it down to get the tank bonus, or MJD, users choice).
Even with 20m/s less for the exampled Golem, a MWD (especially Gist X) will allow it to move at around 800m/s. That with the smaller signature radius and higher resistances will work to take damage while moving into position before locking down and tanking back up.
But I'm just spitballing usage strategies here. Guess we will all find out when people start testing it in Sisi.
DAM that was sexy, I agree with you! 
Success is the result of perfection, hard work, learning from failure, loyalty, and persistence.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:17:00 -
[4776] - Quote
I think there are much better ways to encourage the use of MJD and the bastion module on the Marauder hulls without taking a knife to the hull's "sensitive bits".
MJD Simply allow the adjustment of jump range through a script, abort, or some other mechanic. This could be as limited as 100km and 50 km. With the cooldown time role bonus I think you'd see a lot more pilots using this propulsion module. It supports the sniper and brawler play style in PVE as NPCs disrupt and not scram. There is no need to make the base hull a-brick-trying-to-slide-down-a-ramp-covered-with-sand-paper-while-submerged-in-molasses-on-a-frozen-tundra kind of slow.
Bastion Module This is a much more difficult problem to solve. The crux of which revolves around the current value equation used to balance the module's power. Since it currently only replaces the 4th utility high slot which in and of itself doesn't provide much value, the power level of the module has to be balanced by added significant drawbacks to its use; such as immobility and exclusion of remote assistance.
On paper the overall effect is balanced. However, when applied to EVE world scenarios, the drawbacks severely limit the module's possible usage in dangerous areas such as low or null security space and make it unattractive in engagements that favor remote assistance. As I see it the resistance and local repair bonuses are offset by the remote assistance exclusion while the EWAR immunity is paired with being immobile. The range bonus is a nice trade off for the loss of the 4th utility high slot.
The base hull bonuses as they stand now with Iteration 1 are pretty decent and are at least coherent. If it goes live as-is we'll see Marauders used as they are used today with maybe a few more pilots leveraging the MJD and/or bastion modules. It's not great but at least the current users won't be terribly impacted by the changes (except the drone bandwidth/bay nerfs). I don't see a compelling reason for the number of Marauder pilots to increase with these changes. This saddens me as I have always loved the idea of the Marauder hulls if not some of their implementations.
I'm going to go back and update my Marauder proposal to include all the great feedback that's occurred in the some 100 pages since I posted it. By no means do I expect any of it to be used by the developers, although I do hope it might lead to a greater consensus as to what we as a community want from the Marauder class. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Gargantoi
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:18:00 -
[4777] - Quote
Rep bonus back = + 1 ccp ...but i dont understand 1 thing ..why paladin has 40 exp basic resist on armor ? while golem is still 0 on em shield as well as kronos beeing 10 at exp ...maybe a missclick ? anyway ..now what u need to do is give them a lil bit more dmg ..say 10% bonus to theire dmg / rof per level ..or make them all use 5 heavy / sentry drones ... |

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:25:00 -
[4778] - Quote
Maybe this has been asked or covered already. Can you use MJD while in Bastion mode? If no absolutely pointless bait ship.
EWAR immunity outside bastion mode for X seconds after deactivating is worth training and price tag. (overpowered?)
Pirate BS take a week to train they should be weaker in every way to T2 BS but stronger than T1 with an extra two role bonuses.
Other than that T2 BS is the same so wasted skill points.
I have to be honest if I want a pointless immobile gun platform ill fly a dread its better bait.
If the ship could lock on regular Cnyo and jump 7-9ly like black-ops (solo) and have bastion mode happy days. Tactically good PvP and not so cheap also gives them a distinction over pirate BS.
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:30:00 -
[4779] - Quote
Gargantoi wrote:Rep bonus back = + 1 ccp ...but i dont understand 1 thing ..why paladin has 40 exp basic resist on armor ? while golem is still 0 on em shield as well as kronos beeing 10 at exp ...maybe a missclick ? anyway ..now what u need to do is give them a lil bit more dmg ..say 10% bonus to theire dmg / rof per level ..or make them all use 5 heavy / sentry drones ... The Marauder class has "Pseudo T2 resists". This includes a +10% resist bonus on one of the 4 categories. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1289
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:30:00 -
[4780] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I wonder what the total increase in mission times will be when you add all of these things together:
- Lower base speed
- Higher base mass (lower acceleration for AB/MWD)
- Higher align time
- Lower warp acceleration/deceleration
- Lower top warp speed
Did I miss anything here? Depending on the number of jumps away the mission is located and the number of mission gates you have to use this could be a pretty significant increase in total mission time compared to today.
Gee, CCP nerfing the hell out of PvE, who would have thunk it. You are a bit behind the times. The devs who have been hired from null sec have been attacking any PvE operations, especially high sec ops, for a long time now.
See in null sec, a player just flits about space using jump bridges. Check that, the null cartel players who have the JB passwords flit about, avoiding the bulk of these changes.
Those who live in high sec and low sec, or NPC null sec, well, you are screwed. Sucks to be you. Guess you did not get the memo that the only successful and CCP-endorsed way to play this game is in a null sec cartel. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
757
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:37:00 -
[4781] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I wonder what the total increase in mission times will be when you add all of these things together:
- Lower base speed
- Higher base mass (lower acceleration for AB/MWD)
- Higher align time
- Lower warp acceleration/deceleration
- Lower top warp speed
Did I miss anything here? Depending on the number of jumps away the mission is located and the number of mission gates you have to use this could be a pretty significant increase in total mission time compared to today. Gee, CCP nerfing the hell out of PvE, who would have thunk it. You are a bit behind the times. The devs who have been hired from null sec have been attacking any PvE operations, especially high sec ops, for a long time now. See in null sec, a player just flits about space using jump bridges. Check that, the null cartel players who have the JB passwords flit about, avoiding the bulk of these changes. Those who live in high sec and low sec, or NPC null sec, well, you are screwed. Sucks to be you. Guess you did not get the memo that the only successful and CCP-endorsed way to play this game is in a null sec cartel. You do realize that using a JB network doesn't in any way remove the need to warp between locations right? |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
427
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:43:00 -
[4782] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:baltec1 wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Wry Salen wrote:You know, what would be something cool and kind of useful.
In bastion mode
1. Double the gun cycle time 1. Double the alpha.
There. Suddenly there's a use for them in PVP, you don't really up the DPS at all and it's nifty in PVE. How does double the cycle time and alpha not up dps???? Am I on crazy pills or something? I believe what he is referring to make the guns/launchers take twice as long to fire but with twice the volley damage; same dps, but you get crazy alpha. Don't know how much I like it, but I must admit I would be interested to see it. Nothing but arty boats. Exactly. Can you say, "20k Alpha Arty Vargur"?
Been there done that.
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:46:00 -
[4783] - Quote
Lin Xou wrote:Pirate BS take a week to train they should be weaker in every way to T2 BS but stronger than T1 with an extra two role bonuses.
Other than that T2 BS is the same so wasted skill points.
I feel this way. I never understood why a ship that takes less training time to pilot is better than a ship that takes more training time to pilot. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
758
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 20:16:00 -
[4784] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:Lin Xou wrote:Pirate BS take a week to train they should be weaker in every way to T2 BS but stronger than T1 with an extra two role bonuses.
Other than that T2 BS is the same so wasted skill points.
I feel this way. I never understood why a ship that takes less training time to pilot is better than a ship that takes more training time to pilot. That pretty much falls against the entire concept of T2 vs faction/DS/officer on which everything else is based. This seems a really odd time to be bringing it up considering that. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
428
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 20:19:00 -
[4785] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:Lin Xou wrote:Pirate BS take a week to train they should be weaker in every way to T2 BS but stronger than T1 with an extra two role bonuses.
Other than that T2 BS is the same so wasted skill points.
I feel this way. I never understood why a ship that takes less training time to pilot is better than a ship that takes more training time to pilot.
They came first and got all the good stuff on em .
When I think about it and compare to other games even,pirate ships are much more marauders then marauders them self.
Pirate ships should be fast hard hitting platform with burst tank(local) just to keep me alive thru fight and they are ones that should have salvage gear on them to pillage and salvage loot not marauders it is all twisted around.
He'll if you follow lore marauders are one that are not build for pod pilots in the first place they are(should) be pure fleet vessels with buffer tanks that respond well to logistic capabilities of fleet formation with possible heavy e- war on board,they are empires most advanced battleship not pod pilot designed.
But when you work with leftover bonuses you get current marauders and not to mention that bastion module have absolutely no sense for role they should have,immobility is horrible feat and even worse butchering base hull to be forced to use it is even worse.imo. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Yverlyn Outamon
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 20:51:00 -
[4786] - Quote
So since the marauder base hulls are going to suck ass but the bastion module itself opens up some interesting opportunities anyone figured out where it could better be used rather than trying to polish up a stinking turd?
I-¦m thinking monster passive rattler. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
532
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 21:22:00 -
[4787] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Pirate ships should be fast hard hitting platform with burst tank(local) just to keep me alive thru fight and they are ones that should have salvage gear on them to pillage and salvage loot not marauders it is all twisted around.
Uhh, you do realize the very definition of a Marauder is to rove the land pillaging in search of loot, right? |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
428
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 21:42:00 -
[4788] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Pirate ships should be fast hard hitting platform with burst tank(local) just to keep me alive thru fight and they are ones that should have salvage gear on them to pillage and salvage loot not marauders it is all twisted around.
Uhh, you do realize the very definition of a Marauder is to rove the land pillaging in search of loot, right?
Same as pirate is
1. a. One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation. b. A ship used for this purpose. 2. One who preys on others; a plunderer. 3. One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization. 4. One that operates an unlicensed, illegal television or radio station. v. pi-+rat-+ed, pi-+rat-+ing, pi-+rates v.tr. 1. To attack and rob (a ship at sea). 2. To take (something) by piracy. 3. To make use of or reproduce (another's work) without authorization.
And you know how both of groups catch they prey...little hint they didn't make their ship/horses immobile. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4700
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 21:42:00 -
[4789] - Quote
Yverlyn Outamon wrote:So since the marauder base hulls are going to suck ass but the bastion module itself opens up some interesting opportunities anyone figured out where it could better be used rather than trying to polish up a stinking turd?
I-¦m thinking monster passive rattler.
Heh, really?
Quote: as such we are significantly increasing their fittings so that they can fit Large Micro Jump Drives plus Heavy Capacitor Boosters with more ease (the Vargur especially needed more fitting options). We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode. We also are increasing their maximum targeting range and scan resolution a bit to make use of the increased damage projection, while decreasing their signature radius.
Yeah, so all this and the ability to MJD every minute is QUITE the nerf to the base hull.   
It's amazing how many people have no idea what to do with the possibilities being able to rapidly MJD open up, especially for PVE, for both long and short range weapons systems on these particular hulls. That's not even taking into consideration the extra range from Bastion mode.
This thread is literally chock full of juicy quotes to bring up to embarrass people with this time next year. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 21:52:00 -
[4790] - Quote
Here's an updated version of Iome's Marauder Rebalance. All Marauder hulls would receive these changes over the TQ version:
- T1 Sensor Strength
- T2 Resist Profile
or
- Balanced Resist Profile
- Role Bonus: +10 Access Difficulty for Salvager and Salvage Drones (replaces tractor beam bonuses)
- Role Bonus: 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay
- +1 High Slot (total of 8)
- +1 Launcher Hard Point (all races)
- +1 Turret Hard Point (all races)
- Role Bonus: 70%(-30%) Weapon Damage
- Can fit Bastion Module
The main thrust of the Iteration 1 changes could stay (i.e. fittings and capacitor) but I would remove the base velocity reduction, increased mass, and drone bay changes.
T1 Sensor Strength This I could do without if necessary. It would be a nice modification though.
Resist Profile and Hull bonus to local repair I do think as T2 hulls, Marauders should provide some benefit to survivability in ALL types of engagements whether that be PVE or PVP, solo or in a gang/fleet outside of using the Bastion module. The hull bonus to local repair works well for small scale PVE and PVP where logistics support isn't as prevalent. It doesn't however translate well to larger scale engagements.
Giving T2 resists would be the path as the numbers are already defined for each race and are a know quantity. Another pilot suggested the use of a special resist profile designed for omni tanking setups that consisted of resists being similar across all four damage types.
By no means do I want to see the hull bonus to local repair removed. It is a hallmark of the Marauder class and is necessary to ensure the base hull is as functional as the TQ version.
Not my tractor beams! Depending on the capabilities of the new auto-loot structure this role bonus might remain valuable or become utterly pointless. In the latter case, I advocate for the replacement of this bonus with an equivalent bonus to salvaging. The +10 came out of my posterior, so feedback is appreciated.
5 Weapon Hardpoints! WTF! Oh, the role bonus changed too... This is the most radical change to the base Marauder class included in this proposal. It is important to understand the reasons behind the changes and their ramifications. The combination of the additional weapon hardpoint and reduced role bonus come out to a 9% increase in maximum DPS potential over the current TQ Marauders, and offsets some DPS loss from the drone bandwidth changes. In all cases except the Paladin, this is still equal to or less than the maximum DPS potential of the corresponding Pirate battleship. This would provide a compelling reason for pilots to spend the training time and ISK required to fly these ships without nullifying the attractiveness of their Pirate cousins.
It also provides a new framework by which the Bastion module can be balanced if that module was modified so that it occupied a turret/launcher hard point. Under this framework the bastion module would no longer be balanced against the value of a 4th utility high slot, but would now be compared to 20% of the hull's maximum DPS potential. The massive drawbacks of the bastion module would no longer be necessary to balance it's power. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 21:53:00 -
[4791] - Quote
Here's the base Bastion module and two example scripts that would fit this new value framework:
Base Statistics
- Occupies a turret/launcher hard point
- 10 CPU
- 100 PG
- Duration 60s
- Immobile while active
- One per ship
- Skill requirements: High Energy Physics (should change) & Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Weapon Stability Configuration (long range)
- 50% reduction of MJD spool up time
- +75mb Drone Bandwidth
- 25% increase of turret optimal and falloff range
- 15% increase to Cruise Missile and Rapid Heavy damage
- 25% increase to Cruise Missile and Rapid Heavy velocity
- 50% increase to Cruise Missile and Heavy Missile hitpoints
- 25% increase to maximum targeting range
- 100% increase to scan resolution
- Immune to Tracking Disruption, Sensor Dampening, Sensor Jamming, and targeted ECM
- 100% increase to optimal range of Remote Sensor Boosters and Target Painters
This script is designed to enhance a remotely deployed Marauder's ability to apply damage, avoid disruption, and provide spotting capabilities for fleet/gang members. This script does NOT negate incoming remote assistance. The MJD spool up time reduction allows more breathing room if an enemy gets too close.
The increase in range will roughly allow most weapons to use at least one tier better ammo, with some being able to jump two notches. This equates to roughly a 10-15% increase in damage application which negates a significant portion of the 20% dps loss from 1 less turret. The increase to drone bandwidth adds even more DPS potential through the possible addition of 3 sentry drones. The added missile velocity and hitpoints should help to minimize the reduction of damage due to defender missile use.
The targeting range expands the engagement envelope to include most ranges that would result from a MJD activation regardless of initial target distance. The bonus to scan resolution should allow the Marauder to quickly lock targets in response to priority changes.
The EWAR immunity in this version is selective to include only targeted effects that would otherwise reduce the Marauder's ability to project and apply it's damage. While the increased range on Remote Sensor Boosters and Target Painters provides Marauders a specialized role in targeting support.
The idea is to ensure that a Marauder under WSC will win any fight in which its enemy chooses to stay at range while remaining vulnerable to CQ encounters. WSC truly specializes the ship's role while limiting it's use outside the designed engagement envelope. While long range weapons are greatly enhanced, the use of this script with short range weapons fails to reach parity with the loss of an active turret/launcher. A wing of these ships would be quite effective as they could each fit remote assist modules and repair each other as well.
Area Denial Configuration (beachhead)
- 100% increase to local repair amount
- 30% increase to global resistances (non stacking)
- 25% reduction of incoming energy drain and neutralizer effectiveness
- 50% reduction of turret signature resolution
- 20% reduction of Torpedo explosion radius
- 20% increase to Torpedo explosion velocity
- Drone Bandwidth reduced to 0 (Deployed drones marked abandoned)
- Disrupts all remote assistance within 25km reducing effectiveness by 75%
- Increases optimal range of smart bombs by 50%
- Cannot be remote assisted
This script enables the Marauder to engage the enemy in close combat while disrupting their supply lines. It is designed to be the first ship into the breach opening up a path for more to follow.
The increase in local repair amount coupled with the increased resistances provide significant staying power. The ship would still be vulnerable to the application of heavy DPS or focused alpha strikes. It's ability to local repair would also be bolstered by the reduction of enemy cap warfare effectiveness.
The bastioned Marauder would be able to apply its damage very effectively even against smaller targets. The 50% reduction in turret signature resolution provides almost medium turret levels of tracking versus smaller targets, while the 20% bonuses to explosion velocity and radius do the same for torpedo platforms.
An ADC Marauder would be able to significantly disrupt an enemy's logistics once engaged. It would likely be unwise for an enemy to enter the 25km range unless it's willing to meet the Marauder on its terms. Marauders employing this script would most likely carry neutralizers or smart bombs in its utility highs under this model. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Aqualie
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:04:00 -
[4792] - Quote
With the introduction of a deployable tractor array which can be used in-conjunction with salvaging drones, the tractor bonus is out-dated and out of place. I feel this bonus should be replaced with a smartbomb bonus to both range and damage. A 'Large EMP Smartbomb II' has default range of 6,000m and 300 damage, with a 100% bonus to smartbomb range and damage this increases the range to 12,000m and damage to 600. This solves the issue of kiting frigates that manage to get into scramble range and provides some use to the three utility highs. |

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:50:00 -
[4793] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Vorseger wrote:Lin Xou wrote:Pirate BS take a week to train they should be weaker in every way to T2 BS but stronger than T1 with an extra two role bonuses.
Other than that T2 BS is the same so wasted skill points.
I feel this way. I never understood why a ship that takes less training time to pilot is better than a ship that takes more training time to pilot. That pretty much falls against the entire concept of T2 vs faction/DS/officer on which everything else is based. This seems a really odd time to be bringing it up considering that.
I feel it is a cost to effectiveness ratio more than SP.
T2 are more expensive generally and less effective than pirate with far less training required. No logic as anything a T2 combat BS can do a pirate BS can do better specialist or generalized.
This ship class is going to be difficult for CCP to balance and hope it becomes useful as well as cost effective.
|

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
154
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 23:21:00 -
[4794] - Quote
The Golem in the OP has a typo for it's stats: Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300)
It currently has 7300 hull. Is it supposed to be -300 hull or +300 and supposed to say 7600 hull? I didn't look at the others, but the Paladin is getting a hull hp buff, so I would assume the same for the Golem? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 23:28:00 -
[4795] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Pirate ships should be fast hard hitting platform with burst tank(local) just to keep me alive thru fight and they are ones that should have salvage gear on them to pillage and salvage loot not marauders it is all twisted around.
Uhh, you do realize the very definition of a Marauder is to rove the land pillaging in search of loot, right? Same as pirate is 1. a. One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation. b. A ship used for this purpose. 2. One who preys on others; a plunderer. 3. One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization. 4. One that operates an unlicensed, illegal television or radio station. v. pi-+rat-+ed, pi-+rat-+ing, pi-+rates v.tr. 1. To attack and rob (a ship at sea). 2. To take (something) by piracy. 3. To make use of or reproduce (another's work) without authorization. And you know how both of groups catch they prey...little hint they didn't make their ship/horses immobile.
Well aware of what a pirate is and what they do.. Notice I didn't say "Pirates don't do that"
However, Marauders are "Marauders" as a class.
Pirate hulls are not "Pirate" class, but rather ships created by Pirate factions.
One is an actual class of ship.
The other is a name given to them to represent where they came from, not what they do. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8139
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 04:37:00 -
[4796] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Yverlyn Outamon wrote:So since the marauder base hulls are going to suck ass but the bastion module itself opens up some interesting opportunities anyone figured out where it could better be used rather than trying to polish up a stinking turd?
I-¦m thinking monster passive rattler. Heh, really? Quote: as such we are significantly increasing their fittings so that they can fit Large Micro Jump Drives plus Heavy Capacitor Boosters with more ease (the Vargur especially needed more fitting options). We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode. We also are increasing their maximum targeting range and scan resolution a bit to make use of the increased damage projection, while decreasing their signature radius. Yeah, so all this and the ability to MJD every minute is QUITE the nerf to the base hull.    It's amazing how many people have no idea what to do with the possibilities being able to rapidly MJD open up, especially for PVE, for both long and short range weapons systems on these particular hulls. That's not even taking into consideration the extra range from Bastion mode. This thread is literally chock full of juicy quotes to bring up to embarrass people with this time next year.
What do you expect from high sec bears?
Most of the last 80 pages of ideas are for a ship with no drawbacks and utter outrage that these ships wont be doing missions faster than now. Most of the kronos ideas are to just turn it into another vindi. |

stoicfaux
3196
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 05:12:00 -
[4797] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes. KRONOMNOMNOS:High:4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1x Bastion transformerthingieGäó Module Med:1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts) Low:1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs:1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything. Does the Bastion Module's optimal/fall offbuff stack?
18.82km + 57.6km with Null? I can't make the falloff number work even if the Bastion Module's optimal/falloff buff doesn't stack. And that's assuming the 57.6 falloff includes the 18.82 optimal (as per the UI change that includes optimal in the falloff number.) You sure the falloff isn't 51km? (18.8km + 32.2km) (And that's without bastion stacking.)
|

Flyinghotpocket
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 05:33:00 -
[4798] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time.
angel cartel ships had their time. its over. OP dramiels op cynabals op machs. GG new eve
|

Aust Silverfrond
Black Slag Authenticated You Failed the Mumble Test
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 06:14:00 -
[4799] - Quote
seriously, why does the paladin not get a tracking buff too? while i get you dont want three very similar ships, it seems like the vargur and kronos will simply out perform it.
not to mention that both the vargur and kronos get their damage buff at max from the start. the paladin has to train a month more to get it, minor point, but still annoying. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3544
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 06:20:00 -
[4800] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup Web bonus would make it viable. That's all there really is to it tbh. Its a long ranged boat that is too slow to catch other battleships. Webs are near useless on such a ship, even more so with the vindi which would out class it in every way.
What exactly would make it a long range ship, and where would you use a long range battleship?
Right, nothing, bastion is a close range module, it has tons of utility highs, MJDs worked before people realized they need to fit scrams, and ABCs are 10 cheaper and do the sniping job better.
It's a slow close range ship and as such it needs a bonused web to be worth undocking. Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
|

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 07:19:00 -
[4801] - Quote
Id like to see these changes;
1. Change tractor beam bonus to either 50% to smart bomb cap use or a 100% bonus to Capacitor battery effects (the reflection on cap warfare)
2. T2 resists and drop the bastion bonus to resists across the board. or 2. While in bastion mode Remote assistance is allowed however all effects are reduced by 50%
3. Loose 1 high slot for a mid slot or low slot depending on balance
Here's why i think the above
1. No other combat ship gets a cosy bonus to a purely PVE system (tractor beams) smart bombs are naturally used on the marauders and take up vital cap, so by taking that down it helps the cap stability. 1. Capacitor batteries are not widely used but they are a very good option, with this bonus if you were to fit one to your ship, you would have a 25% reduction to neuters and a 50% reduction to NOS while also getting 1400 extra cap in your pool
2. T2 resists are needed or this ship will never be used in a main fleet as it cannot match the tank of some T1 BS when outside of bastion. if CCP don't want to give that bonus to the ship then option 3 should be used, so that these ships can actually take part in a fleet and posses a role whilst in them
3. 3-4 utility highs depending on fit is just too much no other ship in the game has this and no ship needs this, 2-3 is fine, in order to fit tackle on the paladin and kronos your going to want an extra mid, the golem + vargur need a mid or low to help them with some fitting issue they both get. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8139
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 08:00:00 -
[4802] - Quote
Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup Web bonus would make it viable. That's all there really is to it tbh. Its a long ranged boat that is too slow to catch other battleships. Webs are near useless on such a ship, even more so with the vindi which would out class it in every way. What exactly would make it a long range ship, and where would you use a long range battleship? Right, nothing, bastion is a close range module, it has tons of utility highs, MJDs worked before people realized they need to fit scrams, and ABCs are 10 cheaper and do the sniping job better. It's a slow close range ship and as such it needs a bonused web to be worth undocking.
Bonus to long range damage application. Bonus to mjd.
If it was close range it would have a bonus to tracking so the large guns could better hit close range targets and it would have the speed to get into close range |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
505
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 08:37:00 -
[4803] - Quote
Lin Xou wrote:Maybe this has been asked or covered already. Can you use MJD while in Bastion mode? If no absolutely pointless bait ship. With the right skills MJD cycle time is about the same as bastion mode.
I guess the plan is to jump, deploy, tank and shoot. undeploy jump again, redeploy, rince repeat. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 09:11:00 -
[4804] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup Web bonus would make it viable. That's all there really is to it tbh. Its a long ranged boat that is too slow to catch other battleships. Webs are near useless on such a ship, even more so with the vindi which would out class it in every way. What exactly would make it a long range ship, and where would you use a long range battleship? Right, nothing, bastion is a close range module, it has tons of utility highs, MJDs worked before people realized they need to fit scrams, and ABCs are 10 cheaper and do the sniping job better. It's a slow close range ship and as such it needs a bonused web to be worth undocking. Bonus to long range damage application. Bonus to mjd. If it was close range it would have a bonus to tracking so the large guns could better hit close range targets and it would have the speed to get into close range But It has a tracking bonus to large guns..... and a falloff bonus does not a railgun sniper make. 
The TQ Kronos works fine with it's web bonus and Blasters, there hasn't been a single dev post giving a justification to removing it.
As to your Vindicator comment in the other post, it's the other way round mate; the Kronos web bonus pre-dates the Vindicator one by almost 3 years (Vindicator had a MWD cap bonus in its past iteration) and is the last 'pure' Gallente option left (having to cross train minmatar to fly a 'proper' blaster boat would be fundamentally stupid)
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3547
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 09:58:00 -
[4805] - Quote
Yeah it indeed does have the tracking bonus, and the falloff bonus with bonused web would make blasters work extremely well even when immobile in bastion mode.
Bastion mode is only useful in close range, you go all in. Going bastion in a LR ship means that inties have ample time to burn to you, or you get probed down and scrammed, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about ships that get under your LR guns without bonused webs.
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8140
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 10:30:00 -
[4806] - Quote
Roime wrote:Yeah it indeed does have the tracking bonus, and the falloff bonus with bonused web would make blasters work extremely well even when immobile in bastion mode.
Bastion mode is only useful in close range, you go all in. Going bastion in a LR ship means that inties have ample time to burn to you, or you get probed down and scrammed, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about ships that get under your LR guns without bonused webs.
You get a brave newbee to kill it with a destroyer or harpy.
A ship that cannot chase down anything or even move is not a good close range ship. A falloff bonused mjd bonused ships makes an interesting snipe boat for small gangs. If you must have webs the use one of the new E-war frigs. Dont turn an interesting ship into a crappy copy of the vindi just so you can have an easier time in level 4s.
Also no, bastion does not have a tracking bonus. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 11:20:00 -
[4807] - Quote
It's nothing to do with level 4's - stop repeating this strawman.
The TQ Kronos web bonus is what gives it (notwithstanding the crappy sensor strength) it's niche PvP application. I fail to see why questioning it's removal constitutes 'making it a Vindicator copy' when the Vindicator is actually a 'Kronos copy' in that regard.
Edit - no Bastion doesn't, but the base hull bonuses and slot configuration clearly favour a blaster boat.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3547
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 11:33:00 -
[4808] - Quote
Anyway, "sniping battleships in small gang" is really hilarious.
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8142
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 12:43:00 -
[4809] - Quote
Roime wrote:Anyway, "sniping battleships in small gang" is really hilarious.
Yes it is, which is why I want it. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8142
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 12:47:00 -
[4810] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:It's nothing to do with level 4's - stop repeating this strawman.
The TQ Kronos web bonus is what gives it (despite the crappy sensor strength) it's niche PvP application. I fail to see why questioning it's removal constitutes 'making it a Vindicator copy' when the Vindicator is actually a 'Kronos copy' in that regard.
Edit - no Bastion doesn't, but the base hull bonuses and slot configuration clearly favour a blaster boat. Nobody uses the kronos in pvp because the vindi does a much better job. hell we didn't even use it in anoms when blaster ratting was king. |
|

I-RON zeus
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 13:43:00 -
[4811] - Quote
I understand the marauder class ship are losing drone bay but what ccp could do is give it a large drone bit tho you cant lunch say 5 sentry your friend can deploy one for you say in a rattle etc; i feel that this would greatly increase the cooperative play in eve and this doesn't just have to be restricted to marauders class ships. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 13:48:00 -
[4812] - Quote
I-RON zeus wrote:I understand the marauder class ship are losing drone bay but what ccp could do is give it a large drone bit tho you cant lunch say 5 sentry your friend can deploy one for you say in a rattle etc; i feel that this would greatly increase the cooperative play in eve and this doesn't just have to be restricted to marauders class ships.
No Other class of ship that is "deployable" in the game can use drones while deployed this is why it has been reduced, but i agree it is a bit lacking in dps because of the drones being lost, honestly i think we just need to wait for the stuff to come on sisi and test the hell out of them to find the strengths of these ships |

Henk Brombir
Turalyon Prime
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 13:56:00 -
[4813] - Quote
T2 Hyperion for pvp k thx bye
T2 Megathron fo pve k thx bye
Problem solved |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
546
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 14:01:00 -
[4814] - Quote
Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8142
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 15:01:00 -
[4815] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job. There are several fleets I want to use the new kronos with and many roaming gangs. |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 15:02:00 -
[4816] - Quote
I will not park my Golem, i will sell it. 
Buying Kronos if they would change the Golem model. Protect yourself from CONCORD today! Tinfoil hats, quality product. Styled after pirate hats. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
5845
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 18:21:00 -
[4817] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. YESYESYESYESYES My YouTube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |

Shamus en Divalone
Dip Dip Potatoe Chip
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 18:29:00 -
[4818] - Quote
Any more sneak peaks at animations yet CCP? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
536
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 18:48:00 -
[4819] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:Any more sneak peaks at animations yet CCP?
CCP is being super quiet right now... about anything really... |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4701
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 19:47:00 -
[4820] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Shamus en Divalone wrote:Any more sneak peaks at animations yet CCP? CCP is being super quiet right now... about anything really... Probably just in a diabetic coma from all of the "sweet" feed back they've gotten in this thread.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 20:03:00 -
[4821] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job.
The fact that they're only going to ever be parked in hangars implies that their role has been removed though does it not? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
536
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 20:07:00 -
[4822] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job. The fact that they're only going to ever be parked in hangars implies that their role has been removed though does it not?
I don't know about you guys, but i'm going to be flying the hell out of a cruise Golem.. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
402
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 21:29:00 -
[4823] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job. The fact that they're only going to ever be parked in hangars implies that their role has been removed though does it not? I don't know about you guys, but i'm going to be flying the hell out of a cruise Golem..
As an owner of a cruise Golem, I'm probably going to sell it, because the bastion module's benefits do not at all in any context outweigh it's drawbacks seen thus far (not to mention the other pointless stat nerfs to the hull itself that put the Golem into the "what is moving" state that most capitals end up in).
Keep in mind too, the WARP SPEED of Marauders is going to be tanking as well. So they've just got WAY, WAY slower, in ALL respects, and must be STATIONARY for their main gimmicks to actually be applicable.
So ISK/hr is probably going to end up going down due to exceptionally awkward quantized 100km jumps in mission sites (the hull's too slow and heavy for an AB, and the MWD uses too much capacitor to be considered with awful agility), longer time for the Golem to actually REACH the missions (and return to station)... Pretty much the only "pro" that happens here is that you can massively downgrade your tank because bastion mode can compensate for it.
Basically, these changes drain literally any semblance of fun from the hull, and believe it or not, both fun and isk/hr are things that I consider in terms of missioning. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
536
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:14:00 -
[4824] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job. The fact that they're only going to ever be parked in hangars implies that their role has been removed though does it not? I don't know about you guys, but i'm going to be flying the hell out of a cruise Golem.. As an owner of a cruise Golem, I'm probably going to sell it, because the bastion module's benefits do not at all in any context outweigh it's drawbacks seen thus far (not to mention the other pointless stat nerfs to the hull itself that put the Golem into the "what is moving" state that most capitals end up in). Keep in mind too, the WARP SPEED of Marauders is going to be tanking as well. So they've just got WAY, WAY slower, in ALL respects, and must be STATIONARY for their main gimmicks to actually be applicable. So ISK/hr is probably going to end up going down due to exceptionally awkward quantized 100km jumps in mission sites (the hull's too slow and heavy for an AB, and the MWD uses too much capacitor to be considered with awful agility), longer time for the Golem to actually REACH the missions (and return to station)... Pretty much the only "pro" that happens here is that you can massively downgrade your tank because bastion mode can compensate for it. Basically, these changes drain literally any semblance of fun from the hull, and believe it or not, both fun and isk/hr are things that I consider in terms of missioning.
Well, i'm interested in bastion mode.
That said, the cap, velocity, and mass nerfs p!ss me off
I really wish they would revert these 3 things as there is no purpose behind them. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:41:00 -
[4825] - Quote
im still at a loss for words....of how even to describe....this new version of the ship. I cant comprehend their reasoning.
Why would i want to sit still? In order for that to increase my effectiveness, i would need a really good bonus..... but range isnt a bonus, it only negates my immobility. Ok, mjd bonus so i can move around, but at 100k, i am negating my range bonus because i will be out of optimal. Ok i have ewar immunity, well thats only there so that being still isnt as terrible.
Everything on this ship is just to negate the horrible effects of something else on this ship, it seems designed by committee... No coherence.
and 'encouraging' mjd via nerfing the ship so normal speed, abs, and mwds are WAY WAY worse, is just Insulting. The only reason there could be for these nerfs is that using an MJD on this ship is SO OP that everyone is assumed to be doing it - therefore we have to nerf it (even for those who wont use an mjd) But thats not the case here.
Exactly the same reason for all the non-bastion mode nerfs, it will be useless without the useless module.
CCP: what is the purpose of the marauder? What is it supposed to do? What will it excel in that make its massive sp, isk costs and stupid drawbacks and nerfs, worth it such that it is better than other ships in said scenario?
edit: Maybe there are some very niche uses in pvp where you want to spend billions on a ridiculous ship and setup that is only good because its strange. Please dont balance the entire game for alliance tournaments. Thanks. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:46:00 -
[4826] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Aglais wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Amazes me how balancing the marauders nad finding a role for them woudl be to make them stay parket in hangars because there will be no place in eve where they are the best choice for the job. The fact that they're only going to ever be parked in hangars implies that their role has been removed though does it not? I don't know about you guys, but i'm going to be flying the hell out of a cruise Golem.. As an owner of a cruise Golem, I'm probably going to sell it, because the bastion module's benefits do not at all in any context outweigh it's drawbacks seen thus far (not to mention the other pointless stat nerfs to the hull itself that put the Golem into the "what is moving" state that most capitals end up in). Keep in mind too, the WARP SPEED of Marauders is going to be tanking as well. So they've just got WAY, WAY slower, in ALL respects, and must be STATIONARY for their main gimmicks to actually be applicable. So ISK/hr is probably going to end up going down due to exceptionally awkward quantized 100km jumps in mission sites (the hull's too slow and heavy for an AB, and the MWD uses too much capacitor to be considered with awful agility), longer time for the Golem to actually REACH the missions (and return to station)... Pretty much the only "pro" that happens here is that you can massively downgrade your tank because bastion mode can compensate for it. Basically, these changes drain literally any semblance of fun from the hull, and believe it or not, both fun and isk/hr are things that I consider in terms of missioning. Well, i'm interested in bastion mode. That said, the cap, velocity, and mass nerfs p!ss me off I really wish they would revert these 3 things as there is no purpose behind them. I have to agree with the sentiments here. At least with the turret boats you get to use better ammo and see bigger numbers while deployed at that range. The added range/missile velocity does nothing to enhance the pilot experience.
I am also very worried about the impact on mission times with the combination of velocity reduction, mass increase, warp speed reduction, and warp acceleration reduction. There are two aspects to this: travel to and from the mission site and local travel within the individual rooms. I don't think there's any way to improve the former situation unless you allowed remote mission turn-in. The local travel is still up in the air. We'll just have to see how well the reduced MJD cool down works for the latter. If the MJD distance was selectable, local travel would be improved overall and maybe recover the time lost in warp.
Edit: Actually looking at the new warp speed/acceleration info, a T3 will probably do laps around a Marauder during mission travel time. If a T3 cuts that in half, is 3x as fast during local movement, and is only 25% slower than a Marauder in kill times I'm not sure why you wouldn't just fly one of those. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
536
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 22:48:00 -
[4827] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:im still at a loss for words....of how even to describe....this new version of the ship. I cant comprehend their reasoning.
Why would i want to sit still? In order for that to increase my effectiveness, i would need a really good bonus..... but range isnt a bonus, it only negates my immobility. Ok, mjd bonus so i can move around, but at 100k, i am negating my range bonus because i will be out of optimal. Ok i have ewar immunity, well thats only there so that being still isnt as terrible.
Everything on this ship is just to negate the horrible effects of something else on this ship, it seems designed by committee... No coherence.
and 'encouraging' mjd via nerfing the ship so normal speed, abs, and mwds are WAY WAY worse, is just Insulting. The only reason there could be for these nerfs is that using an MJD on this ship is SO OP that everyone is assumed to be doing it - therefore we have to nerf it (even for those who wont use an mjd) But thats not the case here.
Exactly the same reason for all the non-bastion mode nerfs, it will be useless without the useless module.
CCP: what is the purpose of the marauder? What is it supposed to do? What will it excel in that make its massive sp, isk costs and stupid drawbacks and nerfs, worth it such that it is better than other ships in said scenario?
edit: Maybe there are some very niche uses in pvp where you want to spend billions on a ridiculous ship and setup that is only good because its strange. Please dont balance the entire game for alliance tournaments. Thanks.
I still say I love how bastion is.. The range doesn't mean much to me, but oh well.
however, i have said several times that every nerf to the hull was not at all necessary. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 23:15:00 -
[4828] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:im still at a loss for words....of how even to describe....this new version of the ship. I cant comprehend their reasoning.
Why would i want to sit still? In order for that to increase my effectiveness, i would need a really good bonus..... but range isnt a bonus, it only negates my immobility. Ok, mjd bonus so i can move around, but at 100k, i am negating my range bonus because i will be out of optimal. Ok i have ewar immunity, well thats only there so that being still isnt as terrible.
Everything on this ship is just to negate the horrible effects of something else on this ship, it seems designed by committee... No coherence.
and 'encouraging' mjd via nerfing the ship so normal speed, abs, and mwds are WAY WAY worse, is just Insulting. The only reason there could be for these nerfs is that using an MJD on this ship is SO OP that everyone is assumed to be doing it - therefore we have to nerf it (even for those who wont use an mjd) But thats not the case here.
Exactly the same reason for all the non-bastion mode nerfs, it will be useless without the useless module.
CCP: what is the purpose of the marauder? What is it supposed to do? What will it excel in that make its massive sp, isk costs and stupid drawbacks and nerfs, worth it such that it is better than other ships in said scenario?
edit: Maybe there are some very niche uses in pvp where you want to spend billions on a ridiculous ship and setup that is only good because its strange. Please dont balance the entire game for alliance tournaments. Thanks. I still say I love how bastion is.. The range doesn't mean much to me, but oh well. however, i have said several times that every nerf to the hull was not at all necessary.
CCP logic, 'lets make missiles better by making everything else fly slower!' :D that patch was real fun... X)
ya gotta think bottom up when talking to these guys, it's not when one thing's bad it gets made to match the good stuff, it's when one thing's bad everything else gets made worse so that it looks less bad XD |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.04 23:55:00 -
[4829] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:im still at a loss for words....of how even to describe....this new version of the ship. I cant comprehend their reasoning.
Why would i want to sit still? In order for that to increase my effectiveness, i would need a really good bonus..... but range isnt a bonus, it only negates my immobility. Ok, mjd bonus so i can move around, but at 100k, i am negating my range bonus because i will be out of optimal. Ok i have ewar immunity, well thats only there so that being still isnt as terrible.
Everything on this ship is just to negate the horrible effects of something else on this ship, it seems designed by committee... No coherence.
and 'encouraging' mjd via nerfing the ship so normal speed, abs, and mwds are WAY WAY worse, is just Insulting. The only reason there could be for these nerfs is that using an MJD on this ship is SO OP that everyone is assumed to be doing it - therefore we have to nerf it (even for those who wont use an mjd) But thats not the case here.
Exactly the same reason for all the non-bastion mode nerfs, it will be useless without the useless module.
CCP: what is the purpose of the marauder? What is it supposed to do? What will it excel in that make its massive sp, isk costs and stupid drawbacks and nerfs, worth it such that it is better than other ships in said scenario?
edit: Maybe there are some very niche uses in pvp where you want to spend billions on a ridiculous ship and setup that is only good because its strange. Please dont balance the entire game for alliance tournaments. Thanks. I still say I love how bastion is.. The range doesn't mean much to me, but oh well. however, i have said several times that every nerf to the hull was not at all necessary.
yeah i guess the one thing it DOES have is good solo tank. (although, personally, i dont want good solo tank at expense of rr, thats just me)
|

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 00:03:00 -
[4830] - Quote
Slated for Rubicon
Never tested til TQ.
I love being an alpha tester. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
768
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 00:08:00 -
[4831] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Slated for Rubicon
Never tested til TQ.
I love being an alpha tester. Sisi is scheduled to open Monday with these changes. |

visitante inferno
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 01:17:00 -
[4832] - Quote
I feel like the golem got the short end of the stick again... my favorite ship is prolly the crappiest. ohwell. goodthing i cross trained on all of them. also. one thing you mentioned is that they are not meant to out do pirate ships. I somewhat understand your point but at the same time that makes it "not worth my while" to train to t2 ships when i can just use a pirate faction...
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
536
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 01:35:00 -
[4833] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:im still at a loss for words....of how even to describe....this new version of the ship. I cant comprehend their reasoning.
Why would i want to sit still? In order for that to increase my effectiveness, i would need a really good bonus..... but range isnt a bonus, it only negates my immobility. Ok, mjd bonus so i can move around, but at 100k, i am negating my range bonus because i will be out of optimal. Ok i have ewar immunity, well thats only there so that being still isnt as terrible.
Everything on this ship is just to negate the horrible effects of something else on this ship, it seems designed by committee... No coherence.
and 'encouraging' mjd via nerfing the ship so normal speed, abs, and mwds are WAY WAY worse, is just Insulting. The only reason there could be for these nerfs is that using an MJD on this ship is SO OP that everyone is assumed to be doing it - therefore we have to nerf it (even for those who wont use an mjd) But thats not the case here.
Exactly the same reason for all the non-bastion mode nerfs, it will be useless without the useless module.
CCP: what is the purpose of the marauder? What is it supposed to do? What will it excel in that make its massive sp, isk costs and stupid drawbacks and nerfs, worth it such that it is better than other ships in said scenario?
edit: Maybe there are some very niche uses in pvp where you want to spend billions on a ridiculous ship and setup that is only good because its strange. Please dont balance the entire game for alliance tournaments. Thanks. I still say I love how bastion is.. The range doesn't mean much to me, but oh well. however, i have said several times that every nerf to the hull was not at all necessary. yeah i guess the one thing it DOES have is good solo tank. (although, personally, i dont want good solo tank at expense of rr, thats just me)
I agree, which is why I said the hull nerfs were unnecessary. They could have done everything they've done with bastion, and still buff the hull without making bastion OP. |

Sirius Fidelis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 02:56:00 -
[4834] - Quote
One of my alliance mates mentioned that if Marauders could cause a "mini escalation" in C4 and/or C3s, then it would give them purpose and people would utilize them. I thought it could be an interesting way to give smaller lower class WH corps something to do in between PVP. |

Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
319
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 03:12:00 -
[4835] - Quote
If they pulled the range bonus stuff and put in some damage increase - that would make this hot but a parked ship shooting farther - that's not too much value for the expense - even against fixed targets (like POCO's and POS's) let alone other ships. |

Bogd Khan
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 03:14:00 -
[4836] - Quote
I just wonder who will use marauders in null after this? I dont know anyone who would be willing to go in "mini triage" in pve situation like null anom for example. What you do when neutral enters local warps to your site and lights cyno while your in "mini triage"? Just die? This marauder change sounds so stupid... Shuold i reprocess mine? As in marauder is pve ship that cannot be used in pve in future... Just wondering wth to do with marauder and skills that i cannot use in future... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 03:37:00 -
[4837] - Quote
Bogd Khan wrote:I just wonder who will use marauders in null after this? I dont know anyone who would be willing to go in "mini triage" in pve situation like null anom for example. What you do when neutral enters local warps to your site and lights cyno while your in "mini triage"? Just die? This marauder change sounds so stupid... Shuold i reprocess mine? As in marauder is pve ship that cannot be used in pve in future... Just wondering wth to do with marauder and skills that i cannot use in future...
With the new warp mechanics, it should take him longer to get to you unless he's in a frig.... maybe cruiser.
However, if he does land in, you've probably had enough time to finish your cycle, or at least be most of the way through it.
That said, the odds of a neutral popping up in local exactly when you bastion is pretty slim... Either they're already there, or you're at least 15 seconds into the cycle.
As far as the rest, I'm thinking the self sustainability will make them a good ship for solo WH, low, and null PVE as you'll be able to tank more and use less ammo.. Not to mention ewar immunity.
I'm thinking they'll be more bang for your buck than they are now. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
192
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 03:50:00 -
[4838] - Quote
You know, I wonder why CCP never considered to...you know...leave the hulls un-nerfed and aplly those nerfs through the bastion mod directly. Speed / Agility / Drone Control / HP penalties could be shifted to the bastion mod. That way, people that wish to use the bastion mod don't get an OP'ed boat and those that wish to run without it don't get a handicapped and overly expensive T2. It just dosn't make sense to me that they are butchering marauders just to make a new mod balanced. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 03:58:00 -
[4839] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:You know, I wonder why CCP never considered to...you know...leave the hulls un-nerfed and aplly those nerfs through the bastion mod directly. Speed / Agility / Drone Control / HP penalties could be shifted to the bastion mod. That way, people that wish to use the bastion mod don't get an OP'ed boat and those that wish to run without it don't get a handicapped and overly expensive T2. It just dosn't make sense to me that they are butchering marauders just to make a new mod balanced.
are you saying fitting penalties, so that when you fit the module you get the nerfs to the hull?
If so, I completely agree, and had considered that.
Take the base hull and buff everything that needs to be buffed, and balance it in a way to where it is fleet compatible.
Then, when you fit a bastion module it comes with a bunch of fitting penalties.
However, I would rather not get a mobility nerf with the bastion module... That's just not fair and only makes these ships less likely to be used with bastion... |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
193
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 04:17:00 -
[4840] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:You know, I wonder why CCP never considered to...you know...leave the hulls un-nerfed and aplly those nerfs through the bastion mod directly. Speed / Agility / Drone Control / HP penalties could be shifted to the bastion mod. That way, people that wish to use the bastion mod don't get an OP'ed boat and those that wish to run without it don't get a handicapped and overly expensive T2. It just dosn't make sense to me that they are butchering marauders just to make a new mod balanced. are you saying fitting penalties, so that when you fit the module you get the nerfs to the hull? If so, I completely agree, and had considered that. Take the base hull and buff everything that needs to be buffed, and balance it in a way to where it is fleet compatible. Then, when you fit a bastion module it comes with a bunch of fitting penalties. However, I would rather not get a mobility nerf with the bastion module... That's just not fair and only makes these ships less likely to be used with bastion...
Yes, absolutely. As far as what penalties and to their individual degree can be tweaked as we go, but I feel like it would make better sense to first migrate as much of the proposed alterations to the hulls to the bastion module. This would, I think, make the bastion module more of an actual fitting option to consider rather than an absolute necessity. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 04:23:00 -
[4841] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:You know, I wonder why CCP never considered to...you know...leave the hulls un-nerfed and aplly those nerfs through the bastion mod directly. Speed / Agility / Drone Control / HP penalties could be shifted to the bastion mod. That way, people that wish to use the bastion mod don't get an OP'ed boat and those that wish to run without it don't get a handicapped and overly expensive T2. It just dosn't make sense to me that they are butchering marauders just to make a new mod balanced. are you saying fitting penalties, so that when you fit the module you get the nerfs to the hull? If so, I completely agree, and had considered that. Take the base hull and buff everything that needs to be buffed, and balance it in a way to where it is fleet compatible. Then, when you fit a bastion module it comes with a bunch of fitting penalties. However, I would rather not get a mobility nerf with the bastion module... That's just not fair and only makes these ships less likely to be used with bastion... Yes, absolutely. As far as what penalties and to their individual degree can be tweaked as we go, but I feel like it would make better sense to first migrate as much of the proposed alterations to the hulls to the bastion module. This would, I think, make the bastion module more of an actual fitting option to consider rather than an absolute necessity.
Agreed.
Also, if we buff the hull and leave bastion alone, then (while the two wouldn't effect each other) you would have a ship that is too versatile because you'd be able to jump from one to another.
So, in giving fitting penalties to bastion to more or less FORCE bastion to be used in most cases, I feel is fair.. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8145
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 05:02:00 -
[4842] - Quote
Its amazing how many pve players are demanding a ship with no drawbacks. |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 06:36:00 -
[4843] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its amazing how many pve players are demanding a ship with no drawbacks.
More like they don't want their expensive ships nerfed in order to accommodate a module and playstyle that that will be detrimental for their activities for various reason. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 06:57:00 -
[4844] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its amazing how many pve players are demanding a ship with no drawbacks. More like they don't want their expensive ships nerfed in order to accommodate a module and playstyle that that will be detrimental for their activities for various reason.
Not unless it's the module itself that nerfs the hull.
Basically, base hull would be fliable on it's own and fit well into a fleet. While fitting a bastion would nerf the hull in exchange for what bastion mode provides.
You can essentially equate it to bastion by-passing several on-board systems in order to give itself proper functionality.
Also, this would mean that you have to commit to whichever you fly and can't just have two ships balled up into one at the click of the mouse.
That said, after a long thinking process, I think the bonus to MJD should be given to another ship and leave the Marauder out of it, as it doesn't suit most PVE needs.
Give the bonus to blops, expecially if they're going to be splitting blops into two (which is what I've heard) |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 07:16:00 -
[4845] - Quote
binding those hull nerfs to a single module will make that module useless because who would decide to use it when the gains from it would bring such huge limitations - there are allready huge concerns about the usefulness of the whole bastion module in both pve and pvp rubi hits sisi in 2 days so lets hope it wont be such a big missfire like most people expect |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 07:23:00 -
[4846] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:binding those hull nerfs to a single module will make that module useless because who would decide to use it when the gains from it would bring such huge limitations - there are allready huge concerns about the usefulness of the whole bastion module in both pve and pvp rubi hits sisi in 2 days so lets hope it wont be such a big missfire like most people expect
Which is why I said you have to balance the perks and negatives.
While you would get better sensor strength without the module, it would still be one of the weaker sensor ships in Eve. Bastion would make you immune.
Without you would have 3 utility highs, bastion would be a utility module (assuming CCP takes away the extra high and puts it somewhere more useful and balanced.
Without you would have mobility, with you would have significantly more tank.
Also, they could remove all range bonuses from the hull, and focus purely on high tracking, while bastion could revert that tracking to range.
Things like that last one would make the ship nice outside of bastion, but for someone who wants ranged combat, they'd be better off with bastion. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8145
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 07:32:00 -
[4847] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its amazing how many pve players are demanding a ship with no drawbacks. More like they don't want their expensive ships nerfed in order to accommodate a module and playstyle that that may be detrimental for their activities for various reason.
I weep for the min/max pve players. |

marVLs
437
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 08:52:00 -
[4848] - Quote
Without dps bonus, unnerf to base hulls, and something useful instead of tractor range, that whole marauders rebalance makes them worse than before... |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 09:10:00 -
[4849] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Without dps bonus, unnerf to base hulls, and something useful instead of tractor range, that whole marauders rebalance makes them worse than before... i totaly agree here besides the tractor bonus which i personaly liked so far - cant wait to test that new tractor structure ( which might make that bonus obsolete ) |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 10:56:00 -
[4850] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
words... more words... even more words...
i'm sorry to say this, CCP Ytterbium, but it seems to me that you have no idea of what to do with this ship class, of what rolle they should fit in; how about you think about that for a bit and you postpone this "rebalance" until you have a clear idea about that?
also, if this will be done at the same time with the pirate bs rebalance, i think we will be able to see the entire picture even better 
what i'm trying to say, is that atm , with current changes, the marauders look like the old weapon system on the Naglfar, you know, "the split weapon system", great on paper but terrible in practice; |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8146
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 11:38:00 -
[4851] - Quote
gascanu wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
words... more words... even more words...
i'm sorry to say this, CCP Ytterbium, but it seems to me that you have no idea of what to do with this ship class, of what rolle they should fit in; how about you think about that for a bit and you postpone this "rebalance" until you have a clear idea about that? also, if this will be done at the same time with the pirate bs rebalance, i think we will be able to see the entire picture even better  what i'm trying to say, is that atm , with current changes, the marauders look like the old weapon system on the Naglfar, you know, "the split weapon system", great on paper but terrible in practice;
Only none of these ships have split weapon bonuses. Also they will be doing pirate BS this winter. Finally they have a very clear plan for long range boats with a very heavy active tank. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 13:25:00 -
[4852] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
words... more words... even more words...
i'm sorry to say this, CCP Ytterbium, but it seems to me that you have no idea of what to do with this ship class, of what rolle they should fit in; how about you think about that for a bit and you postpone this "rebalance" until you have a clear idea about that? also, if this will be done at the same time with the pirate bs rebalance, i think we will be able to see the entire picture even better  what i'm trying to say, is that atm , with current changes, the marauders look like the old weapon system on the Naglfar, you know, "the split weapon system", great on paper but terrible in practice; Only none of these ships have split weapon bonuses. Also they will be doing pirate BS this winter. Finally they have a very clear plan for long range boats with a very heavy active tank.
i'm sorry to say that you missed my point entirely
p.s. can you point for me which one of the marauders have a split weapon bonuses? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 13:49:00 -
[4853] - Quote
gascanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
words... more words... even more words...
i'm sorry to say this, CCP Ytterbium, but it seems to me that you have no idea of what to do with this ship class, of what rolle they should fit in; how about you think about that for a bit and you postpone this "rebalance" until you have a clear idea about that? also, if this will be done at the same time with the pirate bs rebalance, i think we will be able to see the entire picture even better  what i'm trying to say, is that atm , with current changes, the marauders look like the old weapon system on the Naglfar, you know, "the split weapon system", great on paper but terrible in practice; Only none of these ships have split weapon bonuses. Also they will be doing pirate BS this winter. Finally they have a very clear plan for long range boats with a very heavy active tank. i'm sorry to say that you missed my point entirely p.s. can you point for me which one of the marauders have a split weapon bonuses?
He said "NONE of these ships have split weapon bonuses" which was in reference to your comment on the Naglfar. I suppose he's saying that using the Naglfar is a bad comparison. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8148
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 14:21:00 -
[4854] - Quote
Quote: He said "NONE of these ships have split weapon bonuses" which was in reference to your comment on the Naglfar. I suppose he's saying that using the Naglfar is a bad comparison.
Its almost as if he didnt bother to read either my post or CCPs... Or even his own. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 14:27:00 -
[4855] - Quote
have too admit my fault, i've read "one" instead of "none"
the other thing still stands tho |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
405
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 16:52:00 -
[4856] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:binding those hull nerfs to a single module will make that module useless because who would decide to use it when the gains from it would bring such huge limitations - there are allready huge concerns about the usefulness of the whole bastion module in both pve and pvp rubi hits sisi in 2 days so lets hope it wont be such a big missfire like most people expect
This is going to be just as big a misfire as people expect.
There are too many things working against Marauders now for these changes to be even remotely good. Before anyone was aware of the warp speed changes, Marauders might have been a usable, if exceptionally boring to fly thing to use in PvE. Now?
Well, their warp speed has been crushed, on top of other mobility based hull nerfs. They still won't be used in PvP, ever, because having to be stationary on something with less than capital level tank is suicide (even if the bastion module will make the Marauders' defense "formidable", I doubt it'll quite be enough, somehow). Damage I'm not too worried about because they at least have ways to apply it, but still. Also, their utility in PvP is probably going to be called into question by the warp changes as well, I think.
This whole role, and the "Long range ship with heavy active tank" niche that it looks like they're trying to go for, is absolutely stupid. If you're attacking at ~100km+, you barely need tank, and
Wait. Wait a second.
Spool up time for the MJD is something like 11-12 seconds, isn't it?
Warp time for interceptors at that range is like 4 seconds now, isn't it?
5-6 seconds to scan, 4 to warp = dead long range marauders.
It seems to me that this "role" is already dead in the water on all possible fronts- please reconsider this entire path, both iteration 1 and 2. |

Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:00:00 -
[4857] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:BaBaBarbara Ann wrote:Well I'm flying a Golem in a null sec drone region, and you know what? it's awsome running patarol with a torpy golem with 25M isk/tik + 5-15 M salvaging (3 patrol/hour, 1 patrol tik). Now i'd like a refound for the marauder skill and i want someone (maybe a dev  ) to come here and buy my golem (i wont bring it to empire  ) Torpy golem is useless everywhere but here, like i said, and here for me a 25M isk/tik is a very effective ship BUT with the upcoming patch the Golem will be nerfed too much as far as TANKING NERF it will LOOSE THE 7,5% sb bonus replaced by a flat 30% from bastion (is 7,5% less) it will have SAME RESIS ( golem now is 0% and 50%,it'll get 0 and 50%, Alvus Queen thanks you) cap recharge nerf SALVAGING NERF Salvage drones or Scout drones that's the question. Art Thou shalt drop my bandwith, not my drone bay! ESCAPING SLOWED -bastion -neutral come from wh - un-bastion - alling neut: "hello Golem, wanna meet my scramb?) me: "ofc, sure, do as you please" neut: "ty, you are very kind" me: "np, you are welcome" net: "Can i call some friends?" me: "Sure, do it, the more we are the better!" So i've trained a PVE boat, you know, for PVE! Why the hell I've to find myself in a pvp boat?? With the same logic MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY! all together: "MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!" I apologize but with my all lvl 5 skilled TENGU i can reach 17M/tik at best (running horde) and with the upcoming patch my golem won't run patrol like this so it means a loss of 500 M isk month +/- If only i could trade my golem with a RSI  Allow me to put your mind at ease... you DON'T have to bastion so you can run away... CCP doesnt want to make it so people like you can go around making money all day with no real risk RISK=REWARD
Excuse me Sir, I think you are dreaming. Just going out with a 1b+ ship is a risk on its own. Get blown up and it's two Plexes.
Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
|

Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:02:00 -
[4858] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Tyvm for the update
So rebalance means Nerf? Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
|

Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:09:00 -
[4859] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Thank you! I can't wait to test Kronos, Paladin and Vargur on SiSi, though I doubt the Vargur will perform well as a sniper, considering the arties' DPS. Good luck fitting arties on the Vargur... Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:09:00 -
[4860] - Quote
Gel Musana wrote:
So rebalance means Nerf?
well they did 1 buff actually and thats the signature buff everything else is a flat our nerf to the uhm least used ship class in the game used by a few missioners with crapstable connection |
|

Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:16:00 -
[4861] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:webs need a strength nerf and web bonuses on all pirate ships need a nerf down to 5%.. Gal and minnie recons need a range nerf on webs and points too
You know what? I need a break from this crap. Can you please explain what is the logic behind your statement? I want this, I want that, nerf this nerf that. Reason? Else is a good as nothing.
Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
|

Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:24:00 -
[4862] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:My thoughts: When they were introduced after Trinity, the purpose of the marauder class battleships was PvE, and PvE only. The high price, the horrible sig radius, and terrible sensor strength; all for the purpose to make them useless in combat (with the notable exception of some Alliance Tournements.)That was their role, and since then, they have done their job, when and where expected.
So I fail to understand CCP's current charge in trying to force these adequately preforming ships into new or additional roles, a move which looks dangerously like it will end with these ships trying to multi-task, but end up preforming in none. If I want to field a billion ISK ship, I'll bring my carrier. Capital tank, capital dps, and capital fleet.
My golem exterminates rats, and it works just fine.
Very well said. I use a Vargur most of the times and it's fab. I am still wondering why do we need this bastion thingy and we need nerfs.
@ CCP I suggest that you guys start controlling your ISK inflation. This is a very serious matter. I am getting to the point where I will have to stop playing EVE because you price me out. In addition why do I have to buy Plex at rip off prices in the UK for stuff that get nerfed continuously? Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8150
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 18:33:00 -
[4863] - Quote
Gel Musana wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:My thoughts: When they were introduced after Trinity, the purpose of the marauder class battleships was PvE, and PvE only. The high price, the horrible sig radius, and terrible sensor strength; all for the purpose to make them useless in combat (with the notable exception of some Alliance Tournements.)That was their role, and since then, they have done their job, when and where expected.
So I fail to understand CCP's current charge in trying to force these adequately preforming ships into new or additional roles, a move which looks dangerously like it will end with these ships trying to multi-task, but end up preforming in none. If I want to field a billion ISK ship, I'll bring my carrier. Capital tank, capital dps, and capital fleet.
My golem exterminates rats, and it works just fine. Very well said. I use a Vargur most of the times and it's fab. I am still wondering why do we need this bastion thingy and we need nerfs. @ CCP I suggest that you guys start controlling your ISK inflation. This is a very serious matter. I am getting to the point where I will have to stop playing EVE because you price me out. In addition why do I have to buy Plex at rip off prices in the UK for stuff that get nerfed continuously?
Don't use plex on ships. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 19:35:00 -
[4864] - Quote
limiting by role is what bastion iterations are doing, this means fitting creativity flies out the window defeating a very large portion of what this game's about. if i spend 800-1bn isk on a hull i want it to do more than the t1 hulls do and better - that means it needs to have ability inside several different roles so i can pick and chose the role i want to fit for.
even dreads can do this - and as a side, dreads only function because they have colossal damage gains and millions of base ehp for dealing with capital targets when entering siege - the local reps are never a factor for them, in siege you kill them all first or are killed trying - too much damage to tank without RR.
- marauders don't have this advantage and so bastion becomes an even sillier idea, given the competition for these hulls are skirmish ships that hit just as hard as you, and at the same ranges - the last thing you want is to try and sit still for a meaningless 10-20km extra range. it's far more effective to use tier 3 battle cruisers.
the MJD also can't defend you against these hulls, because it doesn't break lock, I'll MJD to a new spot only to still find myself in weapons range and still under just as much fire when i land as when i left, with my Low ehp this means an instant death, and with mobility nerfs I have little hope of effectively escaping, against t1 battleships this problem gets worse, they can MJD after me too.
so to this end, given that nothing being added now will actually help make the marauders better at anything, I'm all in support for ideas that don't alter what already is negatively, and add new functionality to what's already there for us to play with.
I support the fitting proposals, PG/CPU etc, but not the high slot addition. the dual module/scripted ideas and the module only effects ideas are the two key kings of the ballpark at the moment, and these should be looked into.
I oppose altering hull bonuses, there's no need or reason to - if you have to or feel obsessed with the thought of altering hull bonuses do so on a temporary basis through bastion activation.
I oppose making the module a requirement for the ship - for the same reasons i despise having to siege dreads to make them better than battleships, the module doesn't make the ship useful the ship makes the module useful, this game isn't orientated around ships but fittings FOR ships. the ship functions on its own, and if i want to get this cool effect or use this strategy i fit this module configuration to do it.
- a blops can fight without its jump portal, a carrier can fight without triage, a rubicon marauder will be garbage w/o bastion and even with it, and a dread is near pointless without siege.
ships are a blank slate not a defined template for the fittings to go on in pre defined order, if the ship doesn't work without the module you've built for it you have failed to design your ship properly and need to do it again - this is where you're heading at the moment, be warned. |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 19:36:00 -
[4865] - Quote
Gel Musana wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey people, We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit. With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted. That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes. Thanks for your time. Thank you! I can't wait to test Kronos, Paladin and Vargur on SiSi, though I doubt the Vargur will perform well as a sniper, considering the arties' DPS. Good luck fitting arties on the Vargur... Vargur gets +5k powergrid, shouldn't have much trouble fitting arties. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 19:38:00 -
[4866] - Quote
Gel Musana wrote:Good luck fitting arties on the Vargur...
As I said way earlier in the thread, with the added PG, you can easily put 1400's, a MJD, a TII X-L SB and a TII Projectile rig. Still doesn't solve the DPS issue though, but I'll check that when it hits SiSi. |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
664
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 20:10:00 -
[4867] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.
Thanks for your time.
Oh, joy. I'm really looking forward to this thread. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
408
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 20:36:00 -
[4868] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.
Thanks for your time. Oh, joy. I'm really looking forward to this thread.
If their handling of the pirate faction ships is going to be anything like the T2 rebalancing, I don't want them touching any of the factions.
Lest Guristas lose their missile damage entirely and get some sort of new weird drone niche (when I really, REALLY hope they become hard tanking missile brawlers), something absolutely arcane and unusual happens to Sansha, etc. |

Vorseger
sebiestor tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 22:28:00 -
[4869] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:limiting by role is what bastion iterations are doing, this means fitting creativity flies out the window defeating a very large portion of what this game's about. if i spend 800-1bn isk on a hull i want it to do more than the t1 hulls do and better - that means it needs to have ability inside several different roles so i can pick and chose the role i want to fit for.
even dreads can do this - and as a side, dreads only function because they have colossal damage gains and millions of base ehp for dealing with capital targets when entering siege - the local reps are never a factor for them, in siege you kill them all first or are killed trying - too much damage to tank without RR.
- marauders don't have this advantage and so bastion becomes an even sillier idea, given the competition for these hulls are skirmish ships that hit just as hard as you, and at the same ranges - the last thing you want is to try and sit still for a meaningless 10-20km extra range. it's far more effective to use tier 3 battle cruisers.
the MJD also can't defend you against these hulls, because it doesn't break lock, I'll MJD to a new spot only to still find myself in weapons range and still under just as much fire when i land as when i left, with my Low ehp this means an instant death, and with mobility nerfs I have little hope of effectively escaping, against t1 battleships this problem gets worse, they can MJD after me too.
so to this end, given that nothing being added now will actually help make the marauders better at anything, I'm all in support for ideas that don't alter what already is negatively, and add new functionality to what's already there for us to play with.
I support the fitting proposals, PG/CPU etc, but not the high slot addition. the dual module/scripted ideas and the module only effects ideas are the two key kings of the ballpark at the moment, and these should be looked into.
I oppose altering hull bonuses, there's no need or reason to - if you have to or feel obsessed with the thought of altering hull bonuses do so on a temporary basis through bastion activation.
I oppose making the module a requirement for the ship - for the same reasons i despise having to siege dreads to make them better than battleships, the module doesn't make the ship useful the ship makes the module useful, this game isn't orientated around ships but fittings FOR ships. the ship functions on its own, and if i want to get this cool effect or use this strategy i fit this module configuration to do it.
- a blops can fight without its jump portal, a carrier can fight without triage, a rubicon marauder will be garbage w/o bastion and even with it, and a dread is near pointless without siege.
ships are a blank slate not a defined template for the fittings to go on in pre defined order, if the ship doesn't work without the module you've built for it you have failed to design your ship properly and need to do it again - this is where you're heading at the moment, be warned.
+1 |

Atreides 47
Atreides of Arrakis
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 22:47:00 -
[4870] - Quote
Scissor-Hands off from Machariel and Cynabal you space punks ! We're know exactly where this changes going. Stop stupid nerfs for good ships and improve others. People want T2 BS like Vargur to be better than pirate BS(logic) , but thats doesn't mean nerf them, damn it. Using Marauders for mission running is a stupid idea, because missions is outdated crap. Instead they must be better at Incursions and PVP. Long Live the Fighters !
CCP and nerfs - http://i.imgur.com/MejTGfL.jpg |
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
430
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 02:03:00 -
[4871] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:limiting by role is what bastion iterations are doing, this means fitting creativity flies out the window defeating a very large portion of what this game's about. if i spend 800-1bn isk on a hull i want it to do more than the t1 hulls do and better - that means it needs to have ability inside several different roles so i can pick and chose the role i want to fit for.
even dreads can do this - and as a side, dreads only function because they have colossal damage gains and millions of base ehp for dealing with capital targets when entering siege - the local reps are never a factor for them, in siege you kill them all first or are killed trying - too much damage to tank without RR.
- marauders don't have this advantage and so bastion becomes an even sillier idea, given the competition for these hulls are skirmish ships that hit just as hard as you, and at the same ranges - the last thing you want is to try and sit still for a meaningless 10-20km extra range. it's far more effective to use tier 3 battle cruisers.
the MJD also can't defend you against these hulls, because it doesn't break lock, I'll MJD to a new spot only to still find myself in weapons range and still under just as much fire when i land as when i left, with my Low ehp this means an instant death, and with mobility nerfs I have little hope of effectively escaping, against t1 battleships this problem gets worse, they can MJD after me too.
so to this end, given that nothing being added now will actually help make the marauders better at anything, I'm all in support for ideas that don't alter what already is negatively, and add new functionality to what's already there for us to play with.
I support the fitting proposals, PG/CPU etc, but not the high slot addition. the dual module/scripted ideas and the module only effects ideas are the two key kings of the ballpark at the moment, and these should be looked into.
I oppose altering hull bonuses, there's no need or reason to - if you have to or feel obsessed with the thought of altering hull bonuses do so on a temporary basis through bastion activation.
I oppose making the module a requirement for the ship - for the same reasons i despise having to siege dreads to make them better than battleships, the module doesn't make the ship useful the ship makes the module useful, this game isn't orientated around ships but fittings FOR ships. the ship functions on its own, and if i want to get this cool effect or use this strategy i fit this module configuration to do it.
- a blops can fight without its jump portal, a carrier can fight without triage, a rubicon marauder will be garbage w/o bastion and even with it, and a dread is near pointless without siege.
ships are a blank slate not a defined template for the fittings to go on in pre defined order, if the ship doesn't work without the module you've built for it you have failed to design your ship properly and need to do it again - this is where you're heading at the moment, be warned.
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
430
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 02:11:00 -
[4872] - Quote
Atreides 47 wrote:Scissor-Hands off from Machariel and Cynabal you space punks ! We're know exactly where this changes going. Stop stupid nerfs for good ships and improve others. People want T2 BS like Vargur to be better than pirate BS(logic) , but thats doesn't mean nerf them, damn it. Using Marauders for mission running is a stupid idea, because missions is outdated crap. Instead they must be better at Incursions and PVP.
lol'd good at sig pic by the time they finish with them(mach n cyna) they will be slowest missile shooting ships out there :)
New marauders place holders for bastion module!!!
yay http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Mr Barglefarf
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 02:51:00 -
[4873] - Quote
i think you should add a heat bonus to it also. if a spaceship, was transfer massive amounts of energy to and from modules like this, it would naturally have tomething setup to counter all the heat that would then be created. add a mini bonus like t3s.
|

stoicfaux
3196
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 03:39:00 -
[4874] - Quote
I have hacked up a pyfa database with the marauder changes and bastion module. It's not perfect, but it's good enough to get a feel for things: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=284141&find=unread
|

Decaneos
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 03:44:00 -
[4875] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.
This is to help try and increase there usage in PvP, better ships for PvE anyways in a lot of cases. |

marVLs
438
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 08:03:00 -
[4876] - Quote
At least let them in Bastion to overheat weapons without getting heat damage, srly do something so they wont be bad as before or ever worse... |

Jaz Antollare
Deadly Loneliness
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 08:25:00 -
[4877] - Quote
May be set an other bastion type module, offensive oriented? Something like better speed, agility, mb some raw damage multiplier? I dunno.
(And give the damn marauder a 5th turret, just saying ;) |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 08:55:00 -
[4878] - Quote
Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.
Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.
Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.
If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.
But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.
When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.
I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?
So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.
--
Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom. |

Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1219
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 09:48:00 -
[4879] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.
Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.
Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.
If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.
But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.
When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.
I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?
So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.
--
Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom.
Truth
|

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
666
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 11:05:00 -
[4880] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.
Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.
Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.
If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.
But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.
When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.
I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?
So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.
--
Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom.
Get out, fanboy. They'll never be cheap because nobody's going to produce them and sell them at a loss due to "lack of demand." The component and research costs for constructing them will always keep prices at a ground floor. You just won't see many people using them or producing them-- just like we used to see with blackops BS. |
|

Racro Arifistan
13th Black Templars Heavy fleet The Knights Templar.
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 11:44:00 -
[4881] - Quote
SkupojHren wrote:what?i dont even know where to start
Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.
also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5
we only get 4 turrets since the role bonus gives us effectivley 8. 9 would heavy disbalance the marduer clss. which would allow us to out damage the pirate ships. which ass ccp said they dont want. so instead we get to massivley outtank them.
(new maruder changes? currently at 4.............. 5 here i come.) Fleet Admiral Racro |

Just Lilly
124
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 13:39:00 -
[4882] - Quote
I hope these changes will hit SiSi until tuesday, wanna try the GodMode module on level 5's!  Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 13:50:00 -
[4883] - Quote
Just Lilly wrote:I hope these changes will hit SiSi until tuesday, wanna try the GodMode module on level 5's! 
Ya know... I've never done a lvl 5... I may hit one up on test server just too. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
194
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 14:05:00 -
[4884] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.
Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.
Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.
If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.
But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.
When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.
I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?
So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.
--
Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom. Get out, fanboy. They'll never be cheap because nobody's going to produce them and sell them at a loss due to "lack of demand." The component and research costs for constructing them will always keep prices at a ground floor. You just won't see many people using them or producing them-- just like we used to see with blackops BS.
He does have a point, though; CCP has had an ample amount of suggestions from many of us concerning both proposed bastion ideas, but (as always) have shown that they either can't decide on them or don't care. All we can really do now is either try them out on Sisi. If they work out okay, great. If not, then so be it; sell them, don't by them, and move on.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 14:27:00 -
[4885] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Lol. Pages and pages of whinging when really, the ONLY thing that will change CCP's mind is what kind of usage the Marauder class will see post-Rubicon.
Every post asking for more damage or more mobility or more of anything is going to be ignored for now. Believe that.
Instead, THINK of ways to use these ships with the proposed changes / stats, you know, get ahead of the curve here instead of waiting to get plowed over with your little post-its scribbled over with complete revamped stats on popsicle sticks clutched tween your forefinger and thumb. You can wave it all you want, but the plow driver ain't gonna see it.
If the changes are so god-awfully bad as all you whingers believe them to be, no one will use these ships and CCP will have effectively forced people out of Marauder hulls. Then we'll see the prices in Jita fall through the floor... which might then lead people to buy them and use them for 500-million when they wouldn't for a billion. But if they're even unattractive as 500-million isk hulls, THEN CCP might backtrack and buff them.
But the Bastion module mechanic, the tanking buff and mobility nerf is here to stay. So shut up about that already. Seriously.
When these show up on SiSi tomorrow, TRY them. I plan to.
I can see them being useful in certain lvl 4's, some vanguards. How many people fly billion isk hulls in PvP anyway? Even if they were clearly OP, how frequent an occurrence would that be?
So maybe you should see what the meta adjustment is in the larger game, see what Jita prices settle at and then figure out if they can be of use to you. THEN.
--
Dear CCP, thanks for shaking up the game. If only to combat boredom. Get out, fanboy. They'll never be cheap because nobody's going to produce them and sell them at a loss due to "lack of demand." The component and research costs for constructing them will always keep prices at a ground floor. You just won't see many people using them or producing them-- just like we used to see with blackops BS. He does have a point, though; CCP has had an ample amount of suggestions from many of us concerning both proposed bastion ideas, but (as always) have shown that they either can't decide on them or don't care. All we can really do now is either try them out on Sisi. If they work out okay, great. If not, then so be it; sell them, don't by them, and move on.
My fear is that testing is going to show iteration 1 is somewhat lacking, and instead of fixing it, they're going to revert to iteration 2, which is just way worse in any situation. Less tank in and out of bastion in exchange for webs?
If iteration 1 doesn't work like they want it to, then they need to come up with something else and completely ignore iteration 2 |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
194
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 14:43:00 -
[4886] - Quote
Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.
Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 14:47:00 -
[4887] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.
Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see...
yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost? Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 15:38:00 -
[4888] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.
Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see... yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost? Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss.
The T2 resists version far superior for wormhole PvE, it gave sufficient resists to tank sites out of bastion (T2 resists are far superior to a 37.5% repair bonus, especially against sleepers) and 90% web let you shoot sleeper frigs with your large guns. This version has no way to efficiently kill sleeper frigs at all (your drones will get switched to and popped in seconds) other than using the MJD and sniping them from range, which is a significant efficiency nerf for the Vargur and Paladin. A Neutron Kronos was very viable and huge ISK/hour with version 2, now it doesn't work at all since it will take several MJD jumps and waiting for the frigs to cross 100km to kill a single wave of them.
Version 2 was also far, far harder to gank. Most ganks in WHs involve a solo cloaky T3 holding you down until the gang arrives, and that's quite difficult against version 2. If they don't have a scrambler, they can't lock you down, and if they do have one, they have to come into 90% web range to use it which means they're probably eating the full DPS of your max DPS-fitted PvE guns. If their gang is even slightly late they'll have to disengage or die, allowing you to get away. If you decided to be meta and also fit a warp disruptor you could basically ensure that they also died with you. Version 1 is trivial to gank, they don't even need a cloaky because you'll be stuck in bastion mode and unable to escape.
V1 is definitely better for L4s, anomalies, and plexes, but it's much worse in wormholes and its PvP role is either going to be worthless or completely overpowered, depending on how good a completely immobile BS that is basically unkillable without massively blobbing it or using capital ships turns out to be. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 16:17:00 -
[4889] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.
Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see... yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost? Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss. The T2 resists version far superior for wormhole PvE, it gave sufficient resists to tank sites out of bastion (T2 resists are far superior to a 37.5% repair bonus, especially against sleepers) and 90% web let you shoot sleeper frigs with your large guns. This version has no way to efficiently kill sleeper frigs at all (your drones will get switched to and popped in seconds) other than using the MJD and sniping them from range, which is a significant efficiency nerf for the Vargur and Paladin. A Neutron Kronos was very viable and huge ISK/hour with version 2, now it doesn't work at all since it will take several MJD jumps and waiting for the frigs to cross 100km to kill a single wave of them. Version 2 was also far, far harder to gank. Most ganks in WHs involve a solo cloaky T3 holding you down until the gang arrives, and that's quite difficult against version 2. If they don't have a scrambler, they can't lock you down, and if they do have one, they have to come into 90% web range to use it which means they're probably eating the full DPS of your max DPS-fitted PvE guns. If their gang is even slightly late they'll have to disengage or die, allowing you to get away. If you decided to be meta and also fit a warp disruptor you could basically ensure that they also died with you. Version 1 is trivial to gank, they don't even need a cloaky because you'll be stuck in bastion mode and unable to escape. V1 is definitely better for L4s, anomalies, and plexes, but it's much worse in wormholes and its PvP role is either going to be worthless or completely overpowered, depending on how good a completely immobile BS that is basically unkillable without massively blobbing it or using capital ships turns out to be.
I would say that iteration 1 is better for everything except incursions compared to what is currently live.
While these ships may not be perfectly viable for pvp, they will perform solo pve in WHs better than any other ship, as long as you use their range. Hell, the paladin is actually going to get the best benefit in WH space, as it doesn't require ammo.(Although crystals are pretty annoying once you can't restack them)
Bastion may screw you in the Event a cloaky catches you, but if that's the case, you weren't watching yourself well enough, and you were probably screwed before hand reguardless of bastion, web, tank, or anything else. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 16:43:00 -
[4890] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say that iteration 1 is better for everything except incursions compared to what is currently live.
gaining a huge overtank for an allready tanky ship with e war immunity at the price of a hugely overnerfed hull that wont work without bastion isnt rly better then the current TQ marauders i doubt people will rly fly those ships in wh and low because the changes turn them into mega slow space cows waiting there to get spanked
|
|

Lont Kruidvat
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 17:34:00 -
[4891] - Quote
Greetings,
Can the Marauders get 3 rig slots, just 2 slots for a battleship seem just weird. Considering the cost and training time These sort of ships should be able to fit T2 rigs easily in my opinion and there for also need more calibration then the 400 they have now. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 18:22:00 -
[4892] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say that iteration 1 is better for everything except incursions compared to what is currently live.
gaining a huge overtank for an allready tanky ship with e war immunity at the price of a hugely overnerfed hull that wont work without bastion isnt rly better then the current TQ marauders i doubt people will rly fly those ships in wh and low because the changes turn them into mega slow space cows waiting there to get spanked
I have said a dozen times that the nerfs to the hull were unneeded and were only implemented to further push bastion and MJD.
However, WITH bastion, they're a lot better at what they were intended for originally. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 18:28:00 -
[4893] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Fingers crossed they don't even consider iteration 2 (although the web bonus on the Kronos is fine, but on a Golem?). Either way, I will run some tests myself on Sisi. If iteration 1 doesn't pan out for me or they do switch back to iteration 2, I have been using a CNR for the last couple of weeks and I'll stick with that. I imagine many have already come up with similar contingency plans themselves.
Hopefully they won't murder pirate BS's too badly, but I have doubts that people will be happy with them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see... yeah, web bonus might be nice on a couple of the ships, but is it worth the loss of 30% omni-resists and 37.5% rep boost? Even when you add t2 resists it still isn't worth this amount of tank loss. The T2 resists version far superior for wormhole PvE, it gave sufficient resists to tank sites out of bastion (T2 resists are far superior to a 37.5% repair bonus, especially against sleepers) and 90% web let you shoot sleeper frigs with your large guns. This version has no way to efficiently kill sleeper frigs at all (your drones will get switched to and popped in seconds) other than using the MJD and sniping them from range, which is a significant efficiency nerf for the Vargur and Paladin. A Neutron Kronos was very viable and huge ISK/hour with version 2, now it doesn't work at all since it will take several MJD jumps and waiting for the frigs to cross 100km to kill a single wave of them. Version 2 was also far, far harder to gank. Most ganks in WHs involve a solo cloaky T3 holding you down until the gang arrives, and that's quite difficult against version 2. If they don't have a scrambler, they can't lock you down, and if they do have one, they have to come into 90% web range to use it which means they're probably eating the full DPS of your max DPS-fitted PvE guns. If their gang is even slightly late they'll have to disengage or die, allowing you to get away. If you decided to be meta and also fit a warp disruptor you could basically ensure that they also died with you. Version 1 is trivial to gank, they don't even need a cloaky because you'll be stuck in bastion mode and unable to escape. V1 is definitely better for L4s, anomalies, and plexes, but it's much worse in wormholes and its PvP role is either going to be worthless or completely overpowered, depending on how good a completely immobile BS that is basically unkillable without massively blobbing it or using capital ships turns out to be.
Won't argue with the T2 resists being better for wormholes, but I'm not getting why Version 2 is "far, far harder to gank". If you had the extra midslot to even contemplate mounting a warp disruptor, you could just as easily mount 2 unbonused webs and get the same 90% bonused web in version 1. There's no other relevant difference between the 2 iterations. |

PavlikX
You are in da lock
93
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 20:19:00 -
[4894] - Quote
CCP must stop their marauder rebalance in Rubicon, probably it will be better to bring them in 1.1 version, after long constructive consultations with comunity. |

Ulysses McTuffMuff
DeltaResearch
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 21:32:00 -
[4895] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction. Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps. And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus.. 
agree |

stoicfaux
3199
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 23:18:00 -
[4896] - Quote
Thinking sideways, how about Marauders having a specialized Micro-Jump Drive that lets them jump to ships/objects instead of just 100km forward?
Lore wise, we're only supposed to be able to jump to a gravity source (in this case another ship.)
Game wise, we could then make Marauders short range damage kings (instead of giving them the current range bonii.) Once a minute, a slow moving target would get face-melted. |

Aqualie
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 04:05:00 -
[4897] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Thinking sideways, how about Marauders having a specialized Micro-Jump Drive that lets them jump to ships/objects instead of just 100km forward?
Lore wise, we're only supposed to be able to jump to a gravity source (in this case another ship.)
Game wise, we could then make Marauders short range damage kings (instead of giving them the current range bonii.) Once a minute, a slow moving target would get face-melted.
Excellent idea. I would love to see this unique feature added to the Marauder class battleship. Coupled with a damage bonus added in bastion mode and a smartbomb range+damage bonus to replace the tractor beam bonus there may be some hope left for the guys that spent the time to train up Marauders |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 04:19:00 -
[4898] - Quote
Solo, anyone know what time this goes on test.. US time, cause I have yet to remember the time difference. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 04:38:00 -
[4899] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Solo, anyone know what time this goes on test.. US time, cause I have yet to remember the time difference.
From: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283065&find=unread
#1Posted: 2013.10.02 11:46 | Report | Edited by: CCP Goliath Hi everyone,
This will be the general feedback thread for Rubicon features on Sisi. It's the place to go if your feedback or question does not relate to one of the feature/team specific threads that will be linked below come Monday. It will be locked until the update goes live on Sisi on Monday 7th October so that there is no confusion or unnecessary thread clutter. As always, please keep feedback constructive and polite if you want your voice to be heard and note that these features are works in progress. As announced in a separate thread, there will be a fresh TQ mirror incoming in the next 2 weeks.
Superfriends High sec POCOs Siphon pseudo silo deployable
Game of Drones Marauder rebalance Electronic Attack Frigate rebalance Rapid Launcher rebalance ISIS (Ship tree) Certificate changes
RnB DX11 by default if supported
Five 0 Warp curves Interdictor rebalance
Trilambda New Marauder animations for Kronos, Paladin, Golem Assets for mobile home, cyno disruptor, cruiser and frigate SOE ships, rapid missile launcher, siphon pesudo silo deployable, command ship hulls, death scene, corpses, incoming stargate jumps, warp disruption bubbles, SMA wrecks, V3 SMAs Please note that not all of these assets will be connected to their features yet, so while they will be in the client they may not be represented in gameplay at this time.
~~~~
So in a few hours, perhaps? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 05:03:00 -
[4900] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Solo, anyone know what time this goes on test.. US time, cause I have yet to remember the time difference. From: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283065&find=unread#1Posted: 2013.10.02 11:46 | Report | Edited by: CCP Goliath Hi everyone,
This will be the general feedback thread for Rubicon features on Sisi. It's the place to go if your feedback or question does not relate to one of the feature/team specific threads that will be linked below come Monday. It will be locked until the update goes live on Sisi on Monday 7th October so that there is no confusion or unnecessary thread clutter. As always, please keep feedback constructive and polite if you want your voice to be heard and note that these features are works in progress. As announced in a separate thread, there will be a fresh TQ mirror incoming in the next 2 weeks.
Superfriends High sec POCOs Siphon pseudo silo deployable
Game of Drones Marauder rebalance Electronic Attack Frigate rebalance Rapid Launcher rebalance ISIS (Ship tree) Certificate changes
RnB DX11 by default if supported
Five 0 Warp curves Interdictor rebalance
Trilambda New Marauder animations for Kronos, Paladin, Golem Assets for mobile home, cyno disruptor, cruiser and frigate SOE ships, rapid missile launcher, siphon pesudo silo deployable, command ship hulls, death scene, corpses, incoming stargate jumps, warp disruption bubbles, SMA wrecks, V3 SMAs Please note that not all of these assets will be connected to their features yet, so while they will be in the client they may not be represented in gameplay at this time.~~~~ So in a few hours, perhaps?
I don't know how we're supposed to test bastion when he haven't even been given a for sure skill on it.
|
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 06:06:00 -
[4901] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: I don't know how we're supposed to test bastion when he haven't even been given a for sure skill on it.
Well theres no info at all for half the stuff there so that'd be the least of the problems. Its probably still just HEP IV |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
182
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 09:56:00 -
[4902] - Quote
I have been reading ALL of this thread. A few of things have become apparent:
* CCP should never again ask people for feedback on a hull :) * CCP should never take a hull and make MASSIVE changes to it :)
I sincerely hope that any changes follow the idea that the Marauder hull can still be flown more or less the way it is now - maybe with some tweaks - and that it kinda-sorta can become a different beast when fitted with a MJD and a Bastion module.
There still seems to be a lot of people that did go out of their way to train a rather large number of SP's to fly them and and are now wide eyed annoyed at their ship suddenly needing to be flown totally different. I get that, I feel the pain.
On the other hand there's a strong chance we might get a hull that's far more commonly seen around the place and not an oddity when seen leaving a station. I pray this becomes a reality.
I guess I'll just wait for the changes, then go fly a Marauder or two. Or go outside and howl at the moon and repeatably beat my face into the sharp parts of my fence. Time shall tell.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:33:00 -
[4903] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I have been reading ALL of this thread. A few of things have become apparent:
* CCP should never again ask people for feedback on a hull :) * CCP should never take a hull and make MASSIVE changes to it :)
I sincerely hope that any changes follow the idea that the Marauder hull can still be flown more or less the way it is now - maybe with some tweaks - and that it kinda-sorta can become a different beast when fitted with a MJD and a Bastion module.
There still seems to be a lot of people that did go out of their way to train a rather large number of SP's to fly them and and are now wide eyed annoyed at their ship suddenly needing to be flown totally different. I get that, I feel the pain.
On the other hand there's a strong chance we might get a hull that's far more commonly seen around the place and not an oddity when seen leaving a station. I pray this becomes a reality.
I guess I'll just wait for the changes, then go fly a Marauder or two. Or go outside and howl at the moon and repeatably beat my face into the sharp parts of my fence. Time shall tell.
THe best CCP can ever do is enver listen to YOU.
The fact hat CCP ASK for feedback is the only thing that prevented this game from failcascading several times already. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

marVLs
440
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 10:51:00 -
[4904] - Quote
Again, what about weapons bonuses in bastion?
Turrets got 3 useful bonuses, missiles got 1 that's just meeh...
Srly turret marauders will now work with short range weapons in bastion, but golem with torps is still useless, so what's the point of that TP bonus? Give them semething, maybe bonus to new RHML, or bonuses to torps only.
And again change tractor bonus, remove one high slot with givin 3rd rig or med/low slot |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
506
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 11:32:00 -
[4905] - Quote
marVLs wrote:[...] what's the point of that TP bonus? [...]

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1252
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 11:33:00 -
[4906] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I have been reading ALL of this thread. A few of things have become apparent:
* CCP should never again ask people for feedback on a hull :) * CCP should never take a hull and make MASSIVE changes to it :)
I sincerely hope that any changes follow the idea that the Marauder hull can still be flown more or less the way it is now - maybe with some tweaks - and that it kinda-sorta can become a different beast when fitted with a MJD and a Bastion module.
There still seems to be a lot of people that did go out of their way to train a rather large number of SP's to fly them and and are now wide eyed annoyed at their ship suddenly needing to be flown totally different. I get that, I feel the pain.
On the other hand there's a strong chance we might get a hull that's far more commonly seen around the place and not an oddity when seen leaving a station. I pray this becomes a reality.
I guess I'll just wait for the changes, then go fly a Marauder or two. Or go outside and howl at the moon and repeatably beat my face into the sharp parts of my fence. Time shall tell.
The biggest issue with marauders actually being their Sensor Strength, the funky town bastion thing will be funny but still strongly limiting this ship pvp abilities. Eve description of Marauders is actually pretty false when you look at their current status, and will still be after changes if this important point is not changed for a permanent better sensor strength and remove the ewar immunity from the bastion module. ATM see no interest in getting one for anything else than shoot structures or gank capitals a-la-transformer  *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Thieving Monkey
Mastercard.
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:00:00 -
[4907] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:...regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.
Leave my Mach the hell alone.
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
182
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:09:00 -
[4908] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
THe best CCP can ever do is enver listen to YOU.
The fact hat CCP ASK for feedback is the only thing that prevented this game from failcascading several times already.
I meant that as a joke. I was actually expecting, like, the smiley faces on the end to convey that, but obviously, there is always one. That's you by the way. As in, "you're the one that didn't get it". I'm stressing that in case you fail to notice the point. Like, AGAIN.
... also, it should not take 100+ pages to "stop things failscading", pretty sure CCP noticed something was up with people not liking changes, like, after page 5 or so. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:19:00 -
[4909] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Eve description of Marauders is actually pretty false when you look at their current status, and will still be after changes if this important point is not changed for a permanent better sensor strength and remove the ewar immunity from the bastion module. ATM see no interest in getting one for anything else than shoot structures or gank capitals a-la-transformer 
Right, because ECM is the only existing ewar. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:22:00 -
[4910] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
THe best CCP can ever do is enver listen to YOU.
The fact hat CCP ASK for feedback is the only thing that prevented this game from failcascading several times already.
I meant that as a joke. I was actually expecting, like, the smiley faces on the end to convey that, but obviously, there is always one. That's you by the way. As in, "you're the one that didn't get it". I'm stressing that in case you fail to notice the point. Like, AGAIN. ... also, it should not take 100+ pages to "stop things failscading", pretty sure CCP noticed something was up with people not liking changes, like, after page 5 or so.
tradtionally to make it look liek a joke you use or but not :) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:30:00 -
[4911] - Quote
Anybody using one on test yet? |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:46:00 -
[4912] - Quote
Test server is offline, and ribicon update download for it isn't available yet. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:50:00 -
[4913] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Test server is offline, and ribicon update download for it isn't available yet.
Yeah, I just tried to build a test, and caught on to that. |

Taegessia
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:59:00 -
[4914] - Quote
This bastion mode might actually prove very accommodating for the hisec mission runner.For PvP is a lot more complicated,so the following thoughts concern hisec missioning only.
If some quick calculations i made are correct, using Golem in bastion mode someone will be able to project damage with rage torpedos as far as 47-48km, assuming he has exhausted all available range bonuses (rigs,implant,skills).Only a handfull of npc ship types (battleships) try to orbit you in higher range (50-51km).Add the fact that for these ships the target painter cycle is reduced to 5 secs then i'd called that icing on the cake.
Ofcourse the above make sense if someone can stay in bastion mode indefinately, isn't that the case with the new changes?
Also i'm thinking how these ships would work in conjuction with that new auto-looting deployable structure that tractors wrecks in the same spot. If that structure's tractor range is >= 40km then the tractor bonuses in Marauders would be somewhat a waste.These ships need desperately salvage bonuses, not something extreme but at least some.Or perharps its time to introduce tech 2 salvage drones. |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 14:34:00 -
[4915] - Quote
SiSi is giving out the rubicon update now, for me its 653mb download. Server still offline tho. |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:09:00 -
[4916] - Quote
SiSi is up now!
Log in and update to test out the new marauders!
Paladin is in now, but its transform animations are not active. Bastion is in and working tho. |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:56:00 -
[4917] - Quote
My char on test server was reverted to April. I did not have marauders trained back then. Anyone know how to give skill points to ones self on the test server so I can fly one of these? |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:57:00 -
[4918] - Quote
First time on test server. If there is a link to "/commands" for use only on test server, I would like to know. That is if those exist. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1339
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:59:00 -
[4919] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:My char on test server was reverted to April. I did not have marauders trained back then. Anyone know how to give skill points to ones self on the test server so I can fly one of these?
that sucks bro.
afaik the only way to get sp is to participate on mass tests...
so keep an eye out for those in the test server sub forum. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:06:00 -
[4920] - Quote
Thx for the info MeBiatch. That DOES SUCK. WTB a real test server?! This is a bit of a joke if one cannot actually test something they currently fly. Lame.
Pro tip: I know that you want it to be as close to your live servers as possible. Maybe you could do this by seeing how much SP people would have/could have earned since the copy of their characters that were made in APRIL, then giving said SP to respective characters on the test server as unallocated skill points. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8154
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:26:00 -
[4921] - Quote
Or just do the same as when they let everyone fly supers and titans. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1340
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:34:00 -
[4922] - Quote
so marauders seem to have really low cpu. i had to put two cpu rigs just to fit the mods i wanted...
and also in bastion mod you are dread blappy meat.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

baltec1
Bat Country
8154
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:44:00 -
[4923] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so marauders seem to have really low cpu. i had to put two cpu rigs just to fit the mods i wanted...
and also in bastion mod you are dread blappy meat.
Well dont leave us all guessing, what were you trying to fit? We need to get the feedback going. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1341
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:10:00 -
[4924] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:MeBiatch wrote:so marauders seem to have really low cpu. i had to put two cpu rigs just to fit the mods i wanted...
and also in bastion mod you are dread blappy meat.
Well dont leave us all guessing, what were you trying to fit? We need to get the feedback going.
4 nuetron blaster II
bastion mod
2 heavy nos
1 medium nuet
mjd
mwd
target spectrum breaker
long point
LAAR 1600 II dcu II ex hardner II 2 energy adaptives II mag stab II
had to put on two cpu rigs.....
honestly it could be just terrible fittings on my hand... i was left with all these high slots so i tried to fill them up... and i was thinking the target spectrum breaker would work nicely with the bastion mode.
i dunno maybe its back to the drawing boad for me.
just with it had more cpu so i can put on the fitting i want. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:18:00 -
[4925] - Quote
WTF? I'm on Sisi now... Golem has a new model, but Paladin looks exactly the same...  |

baltec1
Bat Country
8155
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:22:00 -
[4926] - Quote
That looks like a hard ask on many battleships 
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8155
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:31:00 -
[4927] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:WTF? I'm on Sisi now... Golem has a new model, but Paladin looks exactly the same... 
I think the Paladins new transformer bits haven't been added yet. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:37:00 -
[4928] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:WTF? I'm on Sisi now... Golem has a new model, but Paladin looks exactly the same...  I think the Paladins new transformer bits haven't been added yet.
I was under the impression that it is getting a completely new model... Devs bragged about it a lot... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1341
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:41:00 -
[4929] - Quote
ok so tested out the kornos for pve... and its a beast... i am going to love this thing for solo null sec ratting/plexing
this time i went with a traditional pve fit
425 II with jav which i might add shoot out to 80 km bastion mod salvager scan probe launcher cloak
mjd 3 cap rechargers II
Lar II dcu II 2 eanM II 3 mag stabs
2 nano pump rigs
i like how if i get in trouble with the ship i can simply just turn off bastion activate the mjd and then insta cloak
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1341
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:41:00 -
[4930] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:WTF? I'm on Sisi now... Golem has a new model, but Paladin looks exactly the same...  I think the Paladins new transformer bits haven't been added yet. I was under the impression that it is getting a completely new model... Devs bragged about it a lot...
dont ever assume
it makes an ass out of u and me There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:46:00 -
[4931] - Quote
Too bad I didn't skill High Energy Physics IV. If I did wouldn't matter, though, since the last skill trained on my character was in June. Well, I'll just test in 5 days.  |

Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:49:00 -
[4932] - Quote
OK, I'm convinced there is some guy in CCP that particularly hates Golem. I'm sorry but how can people like this new model? You do know that Golem will have 19s align time? That ship Should be MASSIVE. Not some underwingcut raven that looks like crap... I'm sorry, but this is another Fail on the Marauder side... |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:56:00 -
[4933] - Quote
To test Bastion on SiSi, goto Moveme channel and type bastion to get skills for all marauders and bastion.
On the Bastion Module. please ensure the range bonuses are non-stacking, since they're half the reason to use the modules and they don't seem to be ATM. |

marVLs
441
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:58:00 -
[4934] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Too bad I didn't skill High Energy Physics IV. If I did wouldn't matter, though, since the last skill trained on my character was in June. Well, I'll just test in 5 days. 
Join in SiSi chat channel named "move me" and type "bastion" You will get all skills that's needed, even marauders on 5 
Still veeeeery disappointed about their animation, cause it's not transformation, even word animation is too much... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1343
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:05:00 -
[4935] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Too bad I didn't skill High Energy Physics IV. If I did wouldn't matter, though, since the last skill trained on my character was in June. Well, I'll just test in 5 days.  Join in SiSi chat channel named "move me" and type "bastion" You will get all skills that's needed, even marauders on 5  Still veeeeery disappointed about their animation, cause it's not transformation, even word animation is too much...
i dunoo a bunch of stuff moves around on the kronos. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:05:00 -
[4936] - Quote
Has anyone tested the tractor structure to see the EHP, range, and if marauders can even carry them? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1343
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:05:00 -
[4937] - Quote
ok its time to remove the tractor beam bonus from the marader and replace it whith a heat bonus.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:07:00 -
[4938] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:ok its time to remove the tractor beam bonus from the marader and replace it whith a heat bonus.
I'm sure most people would want a salvager bonus |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
195
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:07:00 -
[4939] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:OK, I'm convinced there is some guy in CCP that particularly hates Golem. I'm sorry but how can people like this new model? You do know that Golem will have 19s align time? That ship Should be MASSIVE. Not some underwingcut raven that looks like crap... I'm sorry, but this is another Fail on the Marauder side...
I'm more concerned with there performance rather than looks. Was pretty sure after the pics for the golem got posted that it was gonna look like crap anyways, so already had no high hopes on the eye-candy. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:11:00 -
[4940] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:OK, I'm convinced there is some guy in CCP that particularly hates Golem. I'm sorry but how can people like this new model? You do know that Golem will have 19s align time? That ship Should be MASSIVE. Not some underwingcut raven that looks like crap... I'm sorry, but this is another Fail on the Marauder side... I'm more concerned with there performance rather than looks. Was pretty sure after the pics for the golem got posted that it was gonna look like crap anyways, so already had no high hopes on the eye-candy.
It's weird, cause I hate it, but I love it...
But still, HAS ANYONE TESTED THE TRACTOR STRUCTURE?????? |
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:11:00 -
[4941] - Quote
Is it the intent for all ships to be balanced based on tech2 modules? When first on test server could only find tech 2 modules not even republic fleet modules. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:20:00 -
[4942] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:Is it the intent for all ships to be balanced based on tech2 modules? When first on test server could only find tech 2 modules not even republic fleet modules.
You have to pay full price for faction/ded modules. Only t1, meta, and t2 are available for a bargain on test server. |

marVLs
441
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:30:00 -
[4943] - Quote
You wanna know what's the best?! 
Bastion range bonuses are stacking penalized.... lol that's a fail, totally useless... forget about You'r over 100km AC Vargurs. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:31:00 -
[4944] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:OK, I'm convinced there is some guy in CCP that particularly hates Golem. I'm sorry but how can people like this new model? You do know that Golem will have 19s align time? That ship Should be MASSIVE. Not some underwingcut raven that looks like crap... I'm sorry, but this is another Fail on the Marauder side... I'm more concerned with there performance rather than looks. Was pretty sure after the pics for the golem got posted that it was gonna look like crap anyways, so already had no high hopes on the eye-candy. It's weird, cause I hate it, but I love it... But still, HAS ANYONE TESTED THE TRACTOR STRUCTURE??????
Can't find any of the new deployables on the market, maybe I just don't know what they're called.
Searched for "tractor", nothing. Searched for "cyno", only same old stuff.
My Paladin went from 892 m/s with a Core A-Type MWD to 715 m/s... pretty significant speed nerf.
Edit: Another wonderful tidbit, cruise launchers now only hold 27 missiles. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
195
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:34:00 -
[4945] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:OK, I'm convinced there is some guy in CCP that particularly hates Golem. I'm sorry but how can people like this new model? You do know that Golem will have 19s align time? That ship Should be MASSIVE. Not some underwingcut raven that looks like crap... I'm sorry, but this is another Fail on the Marauder side... I'm more concerned with there performance rather than looks. Was pretty sure after the pics for the golem got posted that it was gonna look like crap anyways, so already had no high hopes on the eye-candy. It's weird, cause I hate it, but I love it... But still, HAS ANYONE TESTED THE TRACTOR STRUCTURE?????? Can't find any of the new deployables on the market, maybe I just don't know what they're called. Searched for "tractor", nothing. Searched for "cyno", only same old stuff. My Paladin went from 892 m/s with a Core A-Type MWD to 715 m/s... pretty significant speed nerf. Edit: Another wonderful tidbit, cruise launchers now only hold 27 missiles.
27 is normal for tech2 cruise launchers (unless you're looking at faction launchers, then it's not)
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:37:00 -
[4946] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=283065
#1 Posted: 2013.10.02 11:46 | Report | Edited by: CCP Sisyphus Like Hi everyone,
This will be the general feedback thread for Rubicon features on Sisi. It's the place to go if your feedback or question does not relate to one of the feature/team specific threads that will be linked below come Monday. It will be locked until the update goes live on Sisi on Monday 7th October so that there is no confusion or unnecessary thread clutter. As always, please keep feedback constructive and polite if you want your voice to be heard and note that these features are works in progress. As announced in a separate thread, there will be a fresh TQ mirror incoming in the next 2 weeks.
Superfriends High sec POCOs Siphon pseudo silo deployable (Not ready yet)
Game of Drones Marauder rebalance Bastion module Electronic Attack Frigate rebalance Rapid Launcher rebalance ISIS (Ship tree) Certificate changes
RnB The DX11 client will be selected by default if your OS/Hardware supports it. Please note that nothing should look, or perform differently between the DX9 and DX11 clients and the team would like to hear of any instances where you feel things have changed.
Five 0 Warp curves Interceptor rebalance
Trilambda Command Ship Hulls Marauder bastion animation states for the Kronos and Golem (Paladin and Vagur will be added in a later test server update) Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers Stargate jump arrival effect Racial corpse variations in space and the death scene Warp disruption bubbles effects (Deployables, Probes and Interdictors)
Klang Behind the scenes audio refactoring Jump gate sounds working on incoming gate activation (Not in yet)
Kuromaku No longer need to pause skill training for installing/removing implants
KNOWN ISSUES
Camera resets when objects appear on grid
So far, deploy-able structure isn't ready yet. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:40:00 -
[4947] - Quote
Vorseger wrote: So far, deploy-able structure isn't ready yet.
BOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
How are we even supposed to consider the effectiveness of Marauders when part of what we've been waiting for isn't even ready? |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 18:43:00 -
[4948] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Dorororo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:OK, I'm convinced there is some guy in CCP that particularly hates Golem. I'm sorry but how can people like this new model? You do know that Golem will have 19s align time? That ship Should be MASSIVE. Not some underwingcut raven that looks like crap... I'm sorry, but this is another Fail on the Marauder side... I'm more concerned with there performance rather than looks. Was pretty sure after the pics for the golem got posted that it was gonna look like crap anyways, so already had no high hopes on the eye-candy. It's weird, cause I hate it, but I love it... But still, HAS ANYONE TESTED THE TRACTOR STRUCTURE?????? Can't find any of the new deployables on the market, maybe I just don't know what they're called. Searched for "tractor", nothing. Searched for "cyno", only same old stuff. My Paladin went from 892 m/s with a Core A-Type MWD to 715 m/s... pretty significant speed nerf. Edit: Another wonderful tidbit, cruise launchers now only hold 27 missiles. 27 is normal for tech2 cruise launchers (unless you're looking at faction launchers, then it's not)
Oops, sorry my bad then. On TQ I use faction launchers but can't find them on SiSi so I popped in T2.
Golem with RF 100mn AB went from 350 m/s to 279 m/s. Aligning doesn't seem that bad but then again it always moved like a turd.
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
195
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:00:00 -
[4949] - Quote
Sounds like a slug alright. My Core-X AB Golem does about 380 something on TQ. That'll hurt a bit. Corpmate said alignment time was utter butt too. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:04:00 -
[4950] - Quote
Straight from the test-server: my thoughts.
I tested the Kronos in a few missions, the lower warpspeed and the minimal bader inertia (more mass) are exceptable, because alle BS hulls are involved. I like shooting stuff with null at around 70 km falloff, but with a MWD bonus i will be cooler, then the MJD. I like to see the spoiler appear at the Kronos hull in bestion mode, it looks really cool, but only cool. I used it only for testing and in my eyes i don't really need the mode.
The 60 seconds cycle in practice is too long for me, a few level 4 (the smaller ones) mission are clear in 2 minutes. I can say for me tie not too much bonus in the "Bastion" thing. I would love to see for exchange of the the lower dps (because of Dronebandwith)and many other nerfs, a slitghtly dps buff in Bastion maybe 5-10% as a reason to use it.
I think less HP on armor, less cap recharge, slower speed, slower warpspeed and so on, give the players a reason to use it - looking awesome is cool, but with no reason to use, just give us a bit sugar, to make it sweeter. |
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:17:00 -
[4951] - Quote
done sev missions today and i dont rly feel any changes form TQ l4 are just as easy as they were the only difference now is that thx to the bastion you dont need the pimp stuff simple t2 stuff does the job :/ oh and missions with gates on 60km are a pain now on a side note can we increase the TP circle duration to 7 seconds that 5 second circle sucks its the same stuff as with 10 they never finish when you want them to right now im not a big fan of all those changes to marauders there is just not much difference from the TQ ones |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1344
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:22:00 -
[4952] - Quote
about teh bastion mode would it be possilbe to add a ship skill bonus to reduce the bastion activation cycle time by 3 seconds per level. that way at level 5 the mod will cycle every 45 seconds.
as noted the full one minute timer can be a tad long. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:26:00 -
[4953] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:done sev missions today and i dont rly feel any changes form TQ l4 are just as easy as they were the only difference now is that thx to the bastion you dont need the pimp stuff simple t2 stuff does the job :/ oh and missions with gates on 60km are a pain now on a side note can we increase the TP circle duration to 7 seconds that 5 second circle sucks its the same stuff as with 10 they never finish when you want them to right now im not a big fan of all those changes to marauders there is just not much difference from the TQ ones
As far as completion times, CCP wasn't trying to speed that up, but they were trying to make Marauders better tank, and balance their sensor, and apparently too my advice and the advice of others to allow ewar immunity, although we were only suggesting npc ewar immunity.
However, compared to pretty much every other lvl 4 mission capable ship, Marauders have always had tanking issues due to their massive sig, slow speed, and the fact that players wanted to use short range weapons most of the time. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:47:00 -
[4954] - Quote
Bastion range bonus is pretty underwhelming.
With the Paladin's new optimal range bonus, it already hits 80/96 km optimal/falloff with Scorch and 2 TCs with optimal range scripts. Turning on Bastion boosts this to 94/112, which is about a 17% boost to both optimal and falloff. Doesn't really seem like much of a game-changer, especially in exchange for complete immobility (granted Bastion has other benefits)
At this point I would probably only ever activate Bastion for the ewar immunity, and I will not be using the MJD as its more hassle than it's worth.
Edit: Spoke too soon. Upon further thought it might allow me to switch out those TCs and mount 2x webs instead, even without the web bonus this would help with close in targets while maintaining similar range as on TQ. Hmm. But basically I don't see Bastion really helping snipers that much. |

Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:58:00 -
[4955] - Quote
I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:06:00 -
[4956] - Quote
@ CCP
After doing some testing on fittings on test and using EFT.
The Kronos & Paladin definitely suffer from a slot layout problem 8 highs is good but they dont need 3 utility highs currently a proteus can get 700 dps at the same range as a kronos costing 3 times the amount can deal 750 dps not in bastion (theoretical in fall off) bastion does not boost it by enough to make it worth loosing RR ability The proteus can match the tank, at double the speed and maneuverability.
And again based on current prices the proteus is 1/3 of the cost.
Therefore i believe we need to loose one of the high slots and give either a mid or a low, by doing this then you can choose your mod and either fit more dps/tank with a low or a TC to improve dmg application to make it beat a T3 for range
the only advantage between Marauder over T3 is the MJD bonus, but that just isnt enough.
The current layouts are great for pve but just not right for pvp |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Viziam Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:06:00 -
[4957] - Quote
Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives
One point of bastion is to reduce the energy needs of the tank... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:09:00 -
[4958] - Quote
Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives
Are you special Ed? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:15:00 -
[4959] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:@ CCP
After doing some testing on fittings on test and using EFT.
The Kronos & Paladin definitely suffer from a slot layout problem 8 highs is good but they dont need 3 utility highs currently a proteus can get 700 dps at the same range as a kronos costing 3 times the amount can deal 750 dps not in bastion (theoretical in fall off) bastion does not boost it by enough to make it worth loosing RR ability The proteus can match the tank, at double the speed and maneuverability.
And again based on current prices the proteus is 1/3 of the cost.
Therefore i believe we need to loose one of the high slots and give either a mid or a low, by doing this then you can choose your mod and either fit more dps/tank with a low or a TC to improve dmg application to make it beat a T3 for range
the only advantage between Marauder over T3 is the MJD bonus, but that just isnt enough.
The current layouts are great for pve but just not right for pvp
The Golem could go for an 8th mid as well. With 2-3 TPs needed, MJD, cap booster, and the rest being tank, we don't have any room for play. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:40:00 -
[4960] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:To test Bastion on SiSi, goto Moveme channel and type bastion to get skills for all marauders and bastion.
On the Bastion Module. please ensure the range bonuses are non-stacking, since they're half the reason to use the modules and they don't seem to be ATM.
Thanks! My Tachyon Paladin has 69km range with Multifrequency. I think the range bonuses of the Bastion Mode do indeed stack with my two TC II. The concept is not as awesome as I thought it would be, since you cannot MJD on the Acceleration Gate, warp through it and then instantly MJD again to take distance. But the fact that I cannot be TD'ed, damped, jammed is pretty awesome, and the LAR II giving me 25% armor every cycle is pretty amazing too.
I'm pretty satisfied atm. Gonna test Kronos and Vargur too, maybe even Golem, even if my Torpedoes skill is not at V. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:47:00 -
[4961] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Lair Osen wrote:To test Bastion on SiSi, goto Moveme channel and type bastion to get skills for all marauders and bastion.
On the Bastion Module. please ensure the range bonuses are non-stacking, since they're half the reason to use the modules and they don't seem to be ATM. Thanks! My Tachyon Paladin has 69km range with Multifrequency. I think the range bonuses of the Bastion Mode do indeed stack with my two TC II. The concept is not as awesome as I thought it would be, since you cannot MJD on the Acceleration Gate, warp through it and then instantly MJD again to take distance. But the fact that I cannot be TD'ed, damped, jammed is pretty awesome, and the LAR II giving me 25% armor every cycle is pretty amazing too. I'm pretty satisfied atm. Gonna test Kronos and Vargur too, maybe even Golem, even if my Torpedoes skill is not at V.
Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:53:00 -
[4962] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
The Golem could go for an 8th mid as well. With 2-3 TPs needed, MJD, cap booster, and the rest being tank, we don't have any room for play.
i agree i haven't tested them though cuz i dont used shield tank ships aften |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:56:00 -
[4963] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
The Golem could go for an 8th mid as well. With 2-3 TPs needed, MJD, cap booster, and the rest being tank, we don't have any room for play.
i agree i haven't tested them though cuz i dont used shield tank ships aften
Yeah, but the way the Golem as always worked, you either put a prop mod, a third tp, or increased tank.
Now that you're bonused to MJD, you have no free mid. |

marVLs
441
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:58:00 -
[4964] - Quote
By testing:
- Paladin can at least fit what You want, have superb cap (don't even try to nerf it), and that great range, but it have the worst damage type ammo and bad tracking compared to others
- Kronos definitely needs another med slot
- Vargur suffer the most because of bastion stacking ranges, it's not worth anything now when compared to others
- Golem, just a missile ship, range bonus on bastion is too damn low! and no other missile bonuses...
Bastion itself:
- tanking bonuses are cool but it's useless in PVE (at least in such big amount) - ewar immunity that's the only useful bonus - range bonuses... WTF CCP???!!! why its getting stacking penalized? - it should buff sensors - it should give no heat damage when overheating high slots or something else because that useles overtanked bonuses with stacking penalized range bonuses are not worth it to be immobilized
They need something more useful (when Rubicon hitting) in PVE than that tractor range (tractor structure makes that bonus useless). 8th high slot need to go away for something better like 3rd rig slot with veeery big calibration (600? would be cool )
All of marauders are too slow, and i mean not only their speed but terrible allign time and low warp speed (buff them buff them!)
All of them are no use in Incursions In lvl4 missions:
- Paladin may be better option than Nightmare for EM rats (that range, capacitor , both MJD and MWD fitted, ewar immunity)
- Kronos is more or less the same as Vindi in terms of effectiveness vs serpentis etc when fitting rails. Vindi is faster, more agile and got web bonus, Kronos can laught at these damps. No clear winner here
- Golem well... still RNI better because it's faster, more agile, half the price and with tractor structure golem loose it's trump card
- Vargur seems bad, because of no full range bonus in bastion, and nerf to speed in every aspect
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:03:00 -
[4965] - Quote
marVLs wrote:By testing: - Paladin can at least fit what You want, have superb cap (don't even try to nerf it), and that great range, but it have the worst damage type ammo and bad tracking compared to others - Kronos definitely needs another med slot - Vargur suffer the most because of bastion stacking ranges, it's not worth anything now when compared to others - Golem, just a missile ship, range bonus on bastion is too damn low! and no other missile bonuses... Bastion itself: - tanking bonuses are cool but it's useless in PVE (at least in such big amount) - ewar immunity that's the only useful bonus - range bonuses... WTF CCP???!!! why its getting stacking penalized? - it should buff sensors - it should give no heat damage when overheating high slots or something else because that useles overtanked bonuses with stacking penalized range bonuses are not worth it to be immobilized They need something more useful (when Rubicon hitting) in PVE than that tractor range (tractor structure makes that bonus useless). 8th high slot need to go away for something better like 3rd rig slot with veeery big calibration (600? would be cool  ) All of marauders are too slow, and i mean not only their speed but terrible allign time and low warp speed (buff them buff them!) All of them are no use in Incursions  In lvl4 missions:
- Paladin may be better option than Nightmare for EM rats (that range, capacitor , both MJD and MWD fitted, ewar immunity)
- Kronos is more or less the same as Vindi in terms of effectiveness vs serpentis etc when fitting rails. Vindi is faster, more agile and got web bonus, Kronos can laught at these damps. No clear winner here
- Golem well... still RNI better because it's faster, more agile, half the price and with tractor structure golem loose it's trump card
- Vargur seems bad, because of no full range bonus in bastion, and nerf to speed in every aspect
Agreed with almost everything, but the uber tank is more for other uses as opposed to lvl 4 missions.
Quote:They need something more useful (when Rubicon hitting) in PVE than that tractor range (tractor structure makes that bonus useless).
This is assuming the tractor structure is worth a crap |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:15:00 -
[4966] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Lair Osen wrote:To test Bastion on SiSi, goto Moveme channel and type bastion to get skills for all marauders and bastion.
On the Bastion Module. please ensure the range bonuses are non-stacking, since they're half the reason to use the modules and they don't seem to be ATM. Thanks! My Tachyon Paladin has 69km range with Multifrequency. I think the range bonuses of the Bastion Mode do indeed stack with my two TC II. The concept is not as awesome as I thought it would be, since you cannot MJD on the Acceleration Gate, warp through it and then instantly MJD again to take distance. But the fact that I cannot be TD'ed, damped, jammed is pretty awesome, and the LAR II giving me 25% armor every cycle is pretty amazing too. I'm pretty satisfied atm. Gonna test Kronos and Vargur too, maybe even Golem, even if my Torpedoes skill is not at V. Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance.
Can't see the application for MJD. Have run a few missions and MWD or AB seem to be much better. With Paladin range bonus for most missions you don't need bastion at all. It will be handy in just few harder missions.
Speed nerf hurts. A lot.
I can now fit 4 dmg mods for my Paladin (about 850 dps with scorch without drones), 2 IN EANM for 81/75/75/77 omni tank with bastion. Thats more than enough for any mission.
Fitting a web is actually a good idea now, since u don't need cap rechargers. It will help to deal with close orbiting cruisers and u can still fit propulsion and 1 TC.
Summary:
Bastion is meh. Immobility cancels out any bonuses it gives. Only ewar immunity is great.
MJD is totally useless (IMHO).
Tractor bonus does not correspond with range of guns and is next to useless now.
With bastion and drone nerf the ship could actually use a huge bonus to drones (like 10% dmg, hp, tracking) since it can only deploy lights. It would massively help dealing with elite frigs.
Speed nerf was done to force us into MJD. Sorry CCP I still wont use this module.
60 seconds cooldown on bastion is tragic. In most cases u sit 30 sec on grid while everything is dead and than u have to align. Before u could align while the last rat was dying.
Keep you marauder in hangar for 4-5 hardest missions. For the rest use a tengu or something. |

Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:43:00 -
[4967] - Quote
marVLs wrote:By testing: - Golem, just a missile ship, range bonus on bastion is too damn low! and no other missile bonuses...
With max missile skills the Golem will reach out to 38 km with Rage torps, 57 km with Javelin torps, 208km with Fury cruises, and 138km with Precision cruises. That is a lot of range options available |

Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:45:00 -
[4968] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives Are you special Ed?
Stop thinking about PvE limitations |

baltec1
Bat Country
8157
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:57:00 -
[4969] - Quote
Allandri wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives Are you special Ed? Stop thinking about PvE limitations
Its all they do |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:02:00 -
[4970] - Quote
Allandri wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives Are you special Ed? Stop thinking about PvE limitations
a bs immobile in pvp is enough, sitting duck full damage to be taken, all it will take is a couple stealth bombers. the current iteration of the bastion module drawbacks is fine |
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:08:00 -
[4971] - Quote
Have you tested it and compared to Tranq? I don't think so. I think that not many misssion runners would really use this mode, maybe as a oh **** button, but not more. I like the animation, but what get i for?
After testing the Kronos and the Vargur, i say no thanks bastion. I\m faster without the bastion mode. The too long cycle time and the other little things like, warpspeed, speed, cap recharge, ehp, dps (drone Bandwith) nerf compared to TQ makes this version bader, than it is at the moment.
A few Navy ships, are much cheaper, don't use so much training and perform better. I'm really disappointed. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:10:00 -
[4972] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Allandri wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives Are you special Ed? Stop thinking about PvE limitations Its all they do 
Why would I not think about the pve limitations in a ship designed for pve???? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:12:00 -
[4973] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Have you tested it and compared to Tranq? I don't think so. I think that not many misssion runners would really use this mode, maybe as a oh **** button, but not more. I like the animation, but what get i for?
After testing the Kronos and the Vargur, i say no thanks bastion. I\m faster without the bastion mode. The too long cycle time and the other little things like, warpspeed, speed, cap recharge, ehp, dps (drone Bandwith) nerf compared to TQ makes this version bader, than it is at the moment.
A few Navy ships, are much cheaper, don't use so much training and perform better. I'm really disappointed.
Are you crazy?
I traded a golem for a freaking tenth cause it sucked so bad. I will use the hell out of bastion.... |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:28:00 -
[4974] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:Have you tested it and compared to Tranq? I don't think so. I think that not many misssion runners would really use this mode, maybe as a oh **** button, but not more. I like the animation, but what get i for?
After testing the Kronos and the Vargur, i say no thanks bastion. I\m faster without the bastion mode. The too long cycle time and the other little things like, warpspeed, speed, cap recharge, ehp, dps (drone Bandwith) nerf compared to TQ makes this version bader, than it is at the moment.
A few Navy ships, are much cheaper, don't use so much training and perform better. I'm really disappointed. Are you crazy? I traded a golem for a freaking tengu cause it sucked so bad. I will use the hell out of bastion....
if your mission does not have huge distances between gates n has big spawns then the golem is great u can fit it with a small booster and easily tank extravaganza final room |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:28:00 -
[4975] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote: Summary:
Bastion is meh. Immobility cancels out any bonuses it gives. Only ewar immunity is great.
MJD is totally useless (IMHO).
Tractor bonus does not correspond with range of guns and is next to useless now.
With bastion and drone nerf the ship could actually use a huge bonus to drones (like 10% dmg, hp, tracking) since it can only deploy lights. It would massively help dealing with elite frigs.
Speed nerf was done to force us into MJD. Sorry CCP I still wont use this module.
60 seconds cooldown on bastion is tragic. In most cases u sit 30 sec on grid while everything is dead and than u have to align. Before u could align while the last rat was dying.
Keep you marauder in hangar for 4-5 hardest missions. For the rest use a tengu or something.
pretty much what we've been telling them since they announced this =/ but good luck getting them to back pedal now. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:31:00 -
[4976] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance.
There is no leftover distance if you do it right. It's pretty easy given the large "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates. Cargo containers with mission items is another story though, I guess. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 22:34:00 -
[4977] - Quote
Completely unsatisfied:
CNR > Golem
Macha > Vargur
Bastion gives a good tank, but it so hyped fall off bonus gives my vargur 3 km!! In words THREE KILOMETER!
Thats absolutely Crap. And my Macha is working better in any mission DPS wise.
A bit sad right now |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
411
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:06:00 -
[4978] - Quote
Well it seems that Marauders are nearly invulnerable if you fit them right.
I don't really know what to make of this. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:07:00 -
[4979] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance. There is no leftover distance if you do it right. It's pretty easy given the large "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates. Cargo containers with mission items is another story though, I guess.
yeah, but if i'm 60km from the gate when I hit the mission, it's not very likely that without geometry that i'll hit my first jump well enough to catch the second. And if I just to a gate 60km away, i'll miss by at least 20km. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:37:00 -
[4980] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Are you crazy?
I traded a golem for a freaking tengu cause it sucked so bad. I will use the hell out of bastion....
In L4s the only thing that matters is DPS, or, well, applied DPS. Bastion is useless here. You don't need tank anyways, and you can't dictate the range like you can in anoms where everything spawns in the same place.
The Marauders are mainly good for w-space and for nullsec anom running. Just do forsaken hubs and asteroid havens with something like this:
[New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Cap Recharger II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II,Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II,Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II,Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II,Void L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Bastion Mode I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
MWD to center of spawn, activate bastion and immediately turn it red, shoot stuff, tractor in BS wrecks that have loot, have salvage drones going salvaging stuff for you. When bastion runs out, MWD to where the next spawn appears, repeat. Blaster tracking is good enough to hit frigates if you web them, and this tanks enough dps for Gurista/Serpentis anoms. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:38:00 -
[4981] - Quote
The bastion transformations are crap....
Seriously?
4 little tiny pod things open on my Golem that you can't even really make out from the back.
Crappy transformations. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:46:00 -
[4982] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance. There is no leftover distance if you do it right. It's pretty easy given the large "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates. Cargo containers with mission items is another story though, I guess. yeah, but if i'm 60km from the gate when I hit the mission, it's not very likely that without geometry that i'll hit my first jump well enough to catch the second. And if I just to a gate 60km away, i'll miss by at least 20km.
I tried it in Worlds Collide. First MJD activation from the beacon led me to 96km from the gate, second one I was at 0. It's really not that difficult. The only real issue I can see is the time waiting for the cycle to end to then MJD to the gate and warp through it, but it can be solved by simply deactivating it when you know you'll kill the remaining NPCs in less than one minute. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:50:00 -
[4983] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance. There is no leftover distance if you do it right. It's pretty easy given the large "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates. Cargo containers with mission items is another story though, I guess. yeah, but if i'm 60km from the gate when I hit the mission, it's not very likely that without geometry that i'll hit my first jump well enough to catch the second. And if I just to a gate 60km away, i'll miss by at least 20km. I tried it in Worlds Collide. First MJD activation from the beacon led me to 96km from the gate, second one I was at 0. It's really not that difficult. The only real issue I can see is the time waiting for the cycle to end to then MJD to the gate and warp through it, but it can be solved by simply deactivating it when you know you'll kill the remaining NPCs in less than one minute.
My golem is going 106m/s on test... Is it supposed to go that fast?
If so, I can deal with that |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:50:00 -
[4984] - Quote
why do they have to change the golem skin? cant they jus keep the current one? it looks better. besides all the other marauder use the same model . |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 23:57:00 -
[4985] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Though I haven't used it yet, i'm not sure I like MJD bonus as we're still to slow to close the leftover distance. There is no leftover distance if you do it right. It's pretty easy given the large "hitbox" of the Acceleration Gates. Cargo containers with mission items is another story though, I guess. yeah, but if i'm 60km from the gate when I hit the mission, it's not very likely that without geometry that i'll hit my first jump well enough to catch the second. And if I just to a gate 60km away, i'll miss by at least 20km. I tried it in Worlds Collide. First MJD activation from the beacon led me to 96km from the gate, second one I was at 0. It's really not that difficult. The only real issue I can see is the time waiting for the cycle to end to then MJD to the gate and warp through it, but it can be solved by simply deactivating it when you know you'll kill the remaining NPCs in less than one minute.
Worlds Collide is pretty much the most MJD+sniping friendly mission there is. First room favors sniping. In both 2nd rooms, you land close to zero to the next gate, meaning it's trivial to MJD out of webbing/pointing frigates, snipe everything then MJD back right on top of the gate. Ditto for 3rd room.
The problem is I can already do this on TQ. I take next to no damage at range, so Bastion rep bonus is useless. Range bonus isn't a big deal, esp on Golem. I don't need to MJD more than once, so the reactivation delay bonus is also useless. Overall there is simply no real reason to MJD since it just makes stuff take longer compared to tanking everything and salvaging + tractoring at the same time. |

Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 00:14:00 -
[4986] - Quote
the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 00:18:00 -
[4987] - Quote
Crazy KSK wrote:the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks
i think its kinda works for torp golem since they can do 2 x flight time riggs so the missile velocity dont get penalty |

baltec1
Bat Country
8157
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 00:34:00 -
[4988] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Allandri wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Allandri wrote:I really think the Bastion module needs another penalty besides immobility and no remote assistance. Decreased cap regen or an actual cap use to the module seems like it would balance out the positives Are you special Ed? Stop thinking about PvE limitations Its all they do  Why would I not think about the pve limitations in a ship designed for pve????
The idea is to not make them as dedicated pve ships. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 00:42:00 -
[4989] - Quote
Guys, in my Golem bastioned with Marauders 5, and all the awesome skills I have, I'm getting 26% of my shields boosted back while bastioned...
If that's not good enough for pvp even sitting still, then I don't know what is..
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
171
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 00:50:00 -
[4990] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Crazy KSK wrote:the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks i think its kinda works for torp golem since they can do 2 x flight time riggs so the missile velocity dont get penalty
It doesn't work for the golem, because it became a ultra brick with the changes(read 731 m/s, with maxed navigation skills) that is utterly useless as a mwd torp platform and I rather fly a CNR with 3 Sentry's when I want to use CMs.
My Kronos is horrible with the new changes. It became pointless with rails because of the lack of sentry dps and just bad with blasters because my navy Apoc, Vindi and Mach do the same thing a lot better. They are miles quicker on the feet(it is 828m/s fast with the changes, and this is with speed imps, the mach is nearly twice as fast), the navy Apoc owns it full stop at dps projection(lol falloff) and the Vindicator is overall just so much better(more turret dps, a lot faster, got a proper web and actually can utilize sentry's on top of that). If the aim was to produce completely useless pve ships that are only handy for people that are to stupid to learn triggers, move the ship around or utilize logis for plexes/wh then good job, mission archived. Btw with the current 1 minute extra aggro timer, they are even useless in the only niche they would be good at(station games in high sec). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 01:06:00 -
[4991] - Quote
Umm... i was going to start testing the marauders on the test servers but.... WHAT THE PLATYPUS HAPPENED TO MY GOLEM?!
That just... looks flat simplified thing... not something that would be intiminating worth the months it takes to train skills and the billion isk price tag...
I'm disappointed, even before i even got to fly the thing. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 01:15:00 -
[4992] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:Umm... i was going to start testing the marauders on the test servers but.... WHAT THE PLATYPUS HAPPENED TO MY GOLEM?!
That just... looks flat simplified thing... not something that would be intiminating worth the months it takes to train skills and the billion isk price tag...
I'm disappointed, even before i even got to fly the thing.
the transformation is even worse |

Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 01:17:00 -
[4993] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:why do they have to change the golem skin? cant they jus keep the current one? it looks better. besides all the other marauder use the same model .
I read somewhere that they wanted just to squeeze it on for testing, but the art is not updated for the texture packs yet, so it's not how it will look in its finished form.
Now off to test the Paladin...  |

Wyndeigo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 02:00:00 -
[4994] - Quote
new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.
It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 02:02:00 -
[4995] - Quote
Wyndeigo wrote:new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.
It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design.
I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation...
Seriously, WTF was the art department working on? Is it all in game? Cause it's pathetic. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1407
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 02:04:00 -
[4996] - Quote
Web bonuses back please. I'd like to be able to hit the things orbiting me while I am stuck totally stationary. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 02:09:00 -
[4997] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Wyndeigo wrote:new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.
It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design. I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation... Seriously, WTF was the art department working on? Is it all in game? Cause it's pathetic.
hmm I think the hull(golem) looks ugly but the transformation looks cool. Kronos looks amazing in both |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 02:13:00 -
[4998] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Wyndeigo wrote:new Golem is absolutely horrible looking.
It could have worked if you kept the main hull the same and just added the new wing design. I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation... Seriously, WTF was the art department working on? Is it all in game? Cause it's pathetic. hmm I think the hull(golem) looks ugly but the transformation looks cool. Kronos looks amazing in both
I think the Golem transformation is relatively pathetic... It's like air brakes on a jet.... they don't even stand out that well unless you're looking at the front of the ship. |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 02:33:00 -
[4999] - Quote
I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.
I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.
Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):
1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.
2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.
3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.
Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes). |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 03:04:00 -
[5000] - Quote
Josh Cox wrote:I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.
I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.
Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):
1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.
2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.
3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.
Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).
I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above.
Non-stacking range bonus would be nice for torps, but with cruise missiles it would probably put me over 25km. Right now with bastion I'm getting 208 with fury... It will be nice for POS bashing, but ultimately with the tank and ewar immunity, I don't need that much range with cruise.
I really enjoy the tank that bastion provides, I think it's gonna make bastion a lot more pve friendly than people realize. It's almost it's own logistics. It's going to make them shine in everything but fleet pve.
That said, the only thing I'm really disappointed with is the transformations. I was hoping for something a bit more goddie |
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 03:11:00 -
[5001] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Josh Cox wrote:I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.
I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.
Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):
1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.
2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.
3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.
Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).
I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above. Non-stacking range bonus would be nice for torps, but with cruise missiles it would probably put me over 25km. Right now with bastion I'm getting 208 with fury... It will be nice for POS bashing, but ultimately with the tank and ewar immunity, I don't need that much range with cruise. I really enjoy the tank that bastion provides, I think it's gonna make bastion a lot more pve friendly than people realize. It's almost it's own logistics. It's going to make them shine in everything but fleet pve. That said, the only thing I'm really disappointed with is the transformations. I was hoping for something a bit more goddie
Just fly a Vargur and see how little a range increase you get. Not sure how to fix the balance amongst all of weapon options, but I would like to see something that gives a significant increase if they want to get me to even consider using a micro-jump drive. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
544
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 03:34:00 -
[5002] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:
Just fly a Vargur and see how little a range increase you get. Not sure how to fix the balance amongst all of weapon options, but I would like to see something that gives a significant increase if they want to get me to even consider using a micro-jump drive.
Personally, instead of making bastion a one size fits all, they should build the hulls to be an individual ship without bastion considered and then come back and build bastion so that it modifies the ship and all its bonuses.
This way, instead of having nerfed ships and a module that effects them all equally. You would have viable individual ships that when fitted with bastion essentially becomes a different ship, with bonuses built specifically for that hull.
This would make CCPs ultimate goal of allowing bastion on other ships much simpler, and would allow them to customize bastion to the ship, and give it individual design of its own.
Basically, a t3 module if you will.
P.S. Golem need more pg and CPU. It can't even build a proper torp fit without losing a lot of something |

Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 04:01:00 -
[5003] - Quote
Josh Cox wrote:I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.
I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster.
Honestly, after my short trial with it, this is what I say should be done (that I think will make all the ships more useful, not just the Vargur):
1) Remove the 7.5% active tank bonus from the hull and institute a damage bonus (direct damage bonus for ships that get range/tracking on the hull currently, and ROF for ships that already have a direct damage bonus). This damage bonus would probably be fine at 3% (or maybe 4%, but that may be pushing it) per level, instead of the usual 5% per level. This would actually allow for slightly faster completion time of missions/anoms/plexes/whatever instead of just being able to tank damage that people could already tank well to begin with.
2) Remove the 30% resist increase across the board from Bastion and move it to a resist increase on Maraurder hulls. I did a a little experiment: made a custom Vargur ship fitting in EveHQ based on the proposal #2 T2 resist profile and new shield/armor/hull number and then fit the Vargur on SiSi just now with the same tank modules (which were 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Fields II, Thermal Ward Amplifier II, DCU II and Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II) and the T2 EHP (in EveHQ) was actually about 4k lower than my Eve EHP with Bastion active, so I think it would balance out. This would allow the ship to still rock a solid local tank for solo work while also allowing for a reasonable ship to work without the Bastion module for fleet (PvP or Incursions, if blinged out) activity where it depends on remote reps.
3) Make all Bastion bonuses non-stacking so the effects of the module can be realised in practice. For me using autocannons (I never gave artillery a shot tonight), there was barely a range increase at all.
Just my two cents, if anyone wants screenshots from my test I'll provide them. If you think my tank fit for the Vargur was ****, let me know, but I felt like it was alright (with raising resistances across board and filling the holes).
I do think that Bastion is a really cool idea and MJD'ing around with artillery will be insane fun. I just think it needs to be tweaked a bit. A damage bonus on the module itself would be fun and really make people want to use it, but I think it would be OP with the suggestions above.
I'll check out the Paladin and post the stats for those interested in the next few hours if my ISP traffic permits It's a little bit strained atm. 
|

Doctor'X
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 04:11:00 -
[5004] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=Vorseger]
Personally, instead of making bastion a one size fits all, they should build the hulls to be an individual ship without bastion considered and then come back and build bastion so that it modifies the ship and all its bonuses.
This way, instead of having nerfed ships and a module that effects them all equally. You would have viable individual ships that when fitted with bastion essentially becomes a different ship, with bonuses built specifically for that hull.
This would make CCPs ultimate goal of allowing bastion on other ships much simpler, and would allow them to customize bastion to the ship, and give it individual design of its own.
This. By fitting a bastion module the marauder should morph into this new, slow, dreadnaught-esque form. Make it work this way, even if it takes more time.
Marauders should be viable without a bastion module, right now it seems like you have to have a bastion module on these ships. How 2007 is that?
This idea "fits" Eve better. |

Zand Vor
Imbrium Clan
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 04:15:00 -
[5005] - Quote
Flying Golem around, maybe I'm missing a few things
- The Bastion Shield Boost bonus doesnt' show up in the ship fitting Defense window. Broken or Intentional? - Shield Boost Amplifier doesn't appear to work with the Bastion module. Broken or Intentional?
I have relatively good shield skills, I expected slightly better performance out of the Baston shield platform. The repair rate seems slow when active, and again, there's no feedback in the fitting window about it. With no shield extender (10k shield) I'm seeing about 7 shield/tick compared to 1 shield/tick. I'd expect a bit more, tho I'll say my fit probably isn't optimally setup.
Graphics: I'll be the one guy who likes the new angular look way better than the older Raven/RNI style. I view the Bastion mode more akin to Super Pursuit Mode from Knight Rider or the Tumbler Batmobile than expecting something Transformer/Robotech-esque.
So far, I'm more likely to fly the Golem just for it's looks, but not use the Bastion mode much. I'll see what fits I can come up with to improve performance. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
350
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 04:41:00 -
[5006] - Quote
I know I'm looking at this through a fairly narrow pve lens.
the kronos is in a strange position. void dps is amazing (1658), but with the lack of range and mobility I really have to question its applications. null dps feels underwhelming (1185 at 19.33+49.16, or if you drop a mag stab for TE you get 1130 at 19.87+51.94), rail dps is just poopy. it just breaks 1k gun dps with 4 faction damage mods, a t2 rof rig, and 5% implants. with similar set ups tach paladins are doing 1146 wtih navy multi at 72+51, and cruise golem at 1112.9 with fury missiles, effectively to lock range. okay with the golem you get some painter issues.
void seems far to extreme, any other bonus seems like it would put void way over the top. however for nearly every other situation involving the kronos: I'd feel better about the kronos if it had room for 4 sentries and backup lights. heh a Null kronos with 4 gardes would do 1371 dps, that is about the same as a pulse paladin guns only with conflag at 1353. I would assume both would be mostly effective out to 35km or so, although the kronos has superior tracking. where the paladin can swap to scorch and go for long range.
vargur dps is looking pretty bad too, and it looks even worse considering it will be nearly all falloff. it might need another damage bonus. arty dps is even poopier than the kronos. dunno what the varg needs, but I doubt it is bastion mode.
the rebalance seems all out of whack at this point. Paladin with pulse and tachs seems great (maybe too good), golem with cruise is looking good. Where the Torp golem, rail/blaster kronos, and ac/arty varg need work. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Tragedy
The Creepshow
97
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 05:02:00 -
[5007] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I know I'm looking at this through a fairly narrow pve lens.
the kronos is in a strange position. void dps is amazing (1658), but with the lack of range and mobility I really have to question its applications. null dps feels underwhelming (1185 at 19.33+49.16, or if you drop a mag stab for TE you get 1130 at 19.87+51.94), rail dps is just poopy. it just breaks 1k gun dps with 4 faction damage mods, a t2 rof rig, and 5% implants. with similar set ups tach paladins are doing 1146 wtih navy multi at 72+51, and cruise golem at 1112.9 with fury missiles, effectively to lock range. okay with the golem you get some painter issues.
void seems far to extreme, any other bonus seems like it would put void way over the top. however for nearly every other situation involving the kronos: I'd feel better about the kronos if it had room for 4 sentries and backup lights. heh a Null kronos with 4 gardes would do 1371 dps, that is about the same as a pulse paladin guns only with conflag at 1353. I would assume both would be mostly effective out to 35km or so, although the kronos has superior tracking. where the paladin can swap to scorch and go for long range.
vargur dps is looking pretty bad too, and it looks even worse considering it will be nearly all falloff. it might need another damage bonus. arty dps is even poopier than the kronos. dunno what the varg needs, but I doubt it is bastion mode.
the rebalance seems all out of whack at this point. Paladin with pulse and tachs seems great (maybe too good), golem with cruise is looking good. Where the Torp golem, rail/blaster kronos, and ac/arty varg need work. 1200 dps at 20+50k is underwhelming? ....
From a pve perspective its still the same story, just better range and tank. I dont know what you expeted. Selectable damage type is the projectiles strength, high tracking on the hybrids, high damage and kickass range with scorch. They're not going to bump all the marauders damage up to the same numbers just for kicks. They're not the same ship. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
529
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 05:30:00 -
[5008] - Quote
The Djego wrote:It doesn't work for the golem, because it became a ultra brick with the changes(read 731 m/s, with maxed navigation skills) Is this what passes for "ultra brick" these days? Because sure as hell it can outrun pretty much anything plated.
Josh Cox wrote:I just spent a bit of time trying out World's Collide in a Vargur and I have to agree with the sentiment that the range bonus does hardly anything on it.
I'd also like to mention that the Vargur seems overtanked now. Bastion mode really didn't help me complete anything faster because more tank doesn't help me do stuff faster. Again, for armor ships this tanking bonus will allow you to do stuff faster without being tinfoil-thin when it matters, but still be at the efficiency of shield setups at best.
That's pretty much the problem, different ships are treated like they absolutely have to recieve same bonuses, but of cource they are more useful to one ship than to another. |

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 05:46:00 -
[5009] - Quote
Tested the Pally today. All I have to say about it is - awesome! Tachs or Pulses, this thing rules.
But the other ships need work.
Kronos - Either rail damage needs a buff or return it's 125 mb drone bandwith/bay - Blasters are too limiting if you are MJD'ing all over the place. Yes for closeup PvP this thing would be a monster, but for ranged missions it's just blah.
Vargur - Shield bonus is stacking penalised? Not sure that's a good thing.
Golem - I know very little about missile ships, so I've no comment.
So to the great French god of re-balancing - Good job on the Pally, don't mess with it now. Give the Kronos some punch at range.
Cheers.
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 06:38:00 -
[5010] - Quote
its the general problem with the new marauders that short range weapons dont work with bastion to good :/ some sort of short of buff is needed here |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
507
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 07:14:00 -
[5011] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:MeBiatch wrote:ok its time to remove the tractor beam bonus from the marader and replace it whith a heat bonus.
I'm sure most people would want a salvager bonus
no. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 07:27:00 -
[5012] - Quote
Dear CCP:
Bastion is currently only a feature for lvl4 missions and solo (? at best) pvp.
If you want to see these Marauders used in high end pve and pvp there is only two options:
(a) Make Bastion invulnerable to neuting
or
(b) allow remote cap transfer in bastion.
Otherwise the only ships I foresee seeing increased usage are the Geddon / Curse and Pilgrim...
actually ....
or
(c) Rename the class from Marauder to Deadinthewater.
Thank you for reading this wake up call for CCP dudes. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 07:46:00 -
[5013] - Quote
For me I have to say that using a vargur in something else than PvE is out of any question. Thats why I tested it mainly in PvE. I love doing PVP (If you check my KB, No this is my standing toon) but not with that kind of money on the table.
LvL 4:
- Tank is extremely good with two pith b-type specific mods and a x-large shield booster
- MJD is only partially usable, problems with some gates, mission items and some rats (More later)
- 1 Trackingcomputer and 2 tracking enhancer completely deny usability for Bastions Fall-Off bonus due to Stacking penalty
Problems I saw here.
- Sometimes the time indicator vanishes and you have no idea how long Bastion is still going after you deactivated it. This is extremely annoying
- The Mordus Legion NPCs are completely annoying too. If you manage a close in jump to a group 90 km away they will slowboat to a 50km distance. With a fall-off stuck at 74km (Phased plasma) with or without Bastion Vargur uses only 80% of the max damage if you hit 100%. That means i do 700 DPS, which is far less then i have with my Macha on the move.
In the end you are a sitting duck, which can not increase DPS via Bouncer (I have 2 slots for drone links) and with no increase in fall-off, which leads to no increase in effective dealt damage
Angel Forsaken Hub
- Tank is extremely good with two pith b-type specific mods and a x-large shield booster
- MJD makes no sense, because you dictate the range you want to fight and the fly towards you.
- 2 Tracking computer, 1 tracking enhancer and 4 gyros kill
Problems I saw here.
- Due to the interceptor changes and the general sitting duck phenomenon I am afraid to use the Vargur here. But in Singularity it was good
- Macha + 4 Bouncer outrank Vargur by far
8/10 DED site
- What should i say. I took a Blue Pill to be on the safe side, but it did it all alone.
Problems I saw here.
- you can't use bastion in the earlier rooms, because you need to move to keep the time you spend inside the site at a minimum. And you don't want to be there sitting in bastion.
Incursions Hypothetically
- Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.
|

Janeway84
Masters Of Destiny Pride Before Fall
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 07:50:00 -
[5014] - Quote
Saw the new video on the kronos and golems and they look good for a starter animation in bastion mode  What would really give them the little extra would be if they had some lightning special fx going on in parts of the texture or model. Like you got on a proteus pr domi to show where the nano bots flow  Could maybe make it some new shield special Fx for the golen and vargur? Would be nice if you could get a bit more feedback from your ship when you are going into bastion mode is all im suggesting.
I haven't tried the ships on the test server but i agree with one of the posts earlier about rail gun dps sometimes feeling a little low compared to other weapon systems. |

marVLs
442
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 08:34:00 -
[5015] - Quote
I don't know why CCP is behaving unprofessionally...
Marauders were, are and will be used in 99% only in lvl4s. Look how peps are testing them: lvl4s... Deal with that
You take bad ships, nerf them unnecessarily in most aspects, buff sensors too little and by that You try to force some other uses for them, don't know which ones, they're in conflict with them etc.
Don't rebalance ship in way that they won't be used ffs... What's next? Logi rebalance with mining possibility bonuses?
You nerfed them all way long in every aspect that's needed in their main assumption (lvl4s, incursions etc just HS pve, don't lie to yourselfs that magicaly now everyone will be usung them) because You give them totally not needed 34653735% tank bonus with totally useles stacking penalized range bonuses....
Srly You pick up bad ships end You gave us even worse... |

Corbalys
Brokeback Ponies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 08:43:00 -
[5016] - Quote
Now that marauders are stupid can we have a Tech2 battleship class made for PVE ?
More sensor strength / real T2 resists / something to not look ridiculous compared to pirate BS. (real vargur PG too). It wasn't THAT hard to come with something for PVE lovers, why the mini dread module and the speed nerf that will make some missions more painful and bring nothing interesting ? |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
442
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 08:51:00 -
[5017] - Quote
I want to thank CCP to downgrading Marauders from 2nd class to even worse ship, after all this years of them lacking at many things that was pointed out over years of usage..you completely ignored every single one of them and make them under DPS'd local tank garbage that no one wanted in the first place...
In all this years of playing and seeing posts of marauders NO ONE asked for more completely useless tank and nerfs across the board for a module that define a ship as such.....
Thank you. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 09:21:00 -
[5018] - Quote
Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.
First, tank seems good. Can imagine having no issues in pve - pvp - neuts and I'm dead (as ever).
Fallof bonus - useless - its stacking penalised - it did nothing.
Basically I ended up with a static ship (I usually fit MWD,Aburner to get to rats) that could barely apply damage because it was stuck - way overtanked - but maybe you need that because you are now a sitting duck.
The whole concept is a paradox. Give you tank, let you use MJD - good for missions, only using long range weapons = crap for pvp (except maybe gatecamps). Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 09:42:00 -
[5019] - Quote
Rab See wrote:Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.
... Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one.
not even square one, i have to say, cose of the mobility nerfs... 
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
529
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 09:45:00 -
[5020] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Incursions Hypothetically
- Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.
Some people decided to crunch numbers and it seems that taking Vanguards is kinda sorta possible with Bastion (that was during v1.0 times, so I believe it's the same as right now), so you can take 10-11 DPS ships and no logi. Perhaps such a lolfleet could be somewhat competitive Although you being unbuffered ship with no logi support will make a better gank target than usually, so... In other scenarios, yeah, there's no point really. |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
173
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 09:52:00 -
[5021] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I know I'm looking at this through a fairly narrow pve lens.
the kronos is in a strange position. void dps is amazing (1658), but with the lack of range and mobility I really have to question its applications. null dps feels underwhelming (1185 at 19.33+49.16, or if you drop a mag stab for TE you get 1130 at 19.87+51.94), rail dps is just poopy. it just breaks 1k gun dps with 4 faction damage mods, a t2 rof rig, and 5% implants. with similar set ups tach paladins are doing 1146 wtih navy multi at 72+51, and cruise golem at 1112.9 with fury missiles, effectively to lock range. okay with the golem you get some painter issues.
void seems far to extreme, any other bonus seems like it would put void way over the top. however for nearly every other situation involving the kronos: I'd feel better about the kronos if it had room for 4 sentries and backup lights. heh a Null kronos with 4 gardes would do 1371 dps, that is about the same as a pulse paladin guns only with conflag at 1353. I would assume both would be mostly effective out to 35km or so, although the kronos has superior tracking. where the paladin can swap to scorch and go for long range.
vargur dps is looking pretty bad too, and it looks even worse considering it will be nearly all falloff. it might need another damage bonus. arty dps is even poopier than the kronos. dunno what the varg needs, but I doubt it is bastion mode.
the rebalance seems all out of whack at this point. Paladin with pulse and tachs seems great (maybe too good), golem with cruise is looking good. Where the Torp golem, rail/blaster kronos, and ac/arty varg need work. 1200 dps at 20+50k is underwhelming? .... From a pve perspective its still the same story, just better range and tank. I dont know what you expeted. Selectable damage type is the projectiles strength, high tracking on the hybrids, high damage and kickass range with scorch. They're not going to bump all the marauders damage up to the same numbers just for kicks. They're not the same ship.
Exactly they are utterly garbage with the changes, since a Rail Kronos does nearly the same with better damage application at 47+47km. A current Rail Kronos(what is completely pointless with no sentry's after the update) today vastly outperforms the new Blaster Kronos because it is a lot more flexible with the range, actually can move around(with 280m/s higher speed on top of that), cover 18km of range(where you will have tracking issues) with a 90% web and also does 1200 dps at far more useful ranges. If you want something that burns in range and does high dps a Vindicator is far more useful than the Kronos, because it does tones more dps, got sentry's and actually a useful web stenght.
[Kronos, devs are bad at the game] Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Tracking Enhancer II True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Bastion Module I
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Anti-Explosive Pump II
Garde II x1 Hobgoblin II x5
The Kronos had damage issues compared to the other marauders before by only having 3 sentry's to get to useful dps levels with rails, with the changes, the stop and go restrictions and the terrible speed it is just laughable bad. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 09:54:00 -
[5022] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Rab See wrote:Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.
... Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one. not even square one, i have to say, cose of the mobility nerfs... 
True. Before the release i thought it will be like this. (In my mind the Marauders had T2 resists even out of bastion)
Vargur LVL 4.
- Slowboat to gate
- on the way, kill all the **** which is in your range
- at the gate, switch on bastion and kill all the **** which is NOW in your range.
Golem Cruise
- Slowboat to gate
- Kill all the big stuff
- at the gate, switch on bastion and receive explo-velocity to kill all the small ****
But you can forget both. Torp-Golem sucks in missis and is beaten by raven and CNR.
And for all the people who are crying for a PVPable Vargur... I have seen a Pirate BS how often in solo PVP? maybe 20 times in 3 years? |

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 09:55:00 -
[5023] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:
Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.
Don't worry, they'll be nerfing Macha down to this level too to make this look better.  |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
173
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:00:00 -
[5024] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Incursions Hypothetically
- Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.
Some people decided to crunch numbers and it seems that taking Vanguards is kinda sorta possible with Bastion (that was during v1.0 times, so I believe it's the same as right now), so you can take 10-11 DPS ships and no logi. Perhaps such a lolfleet could be somewhat competitive  Although you being unbuffered ship with no logi support will make a better gank target than usually, so... In other scenarios, yeah, there's no point really.
People use 12 1 slot tanked DPS and 1 Logi, nobody will use a active tanked Vargur for it. Also with the web nerf and speed nerf, both Paladin and Kronos(that actually do see a lot of use in armor Incs and are quite good at it) become just a joke.
Btw armor Marauders already can do them one slot tanked and without logis by spider tanking, the only reason people came up with the active tanking idea was that they are bad at Incursions and don't realize why everybody moved away from wasting slots on tank(because you just lose contests and a lot isk/h this way). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:01:00 -
[5025] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
Vargur stays an impossible ship for Incusrions. A Macha beats it in every perspective.
Don't worry, they'll be nerfing Macha down to this level too to make this look better. 
Yeah, sometimes this looks like ccps way of re balancing stuff. Instead of fixing one obvious broken thing, nerf the rest to fit it in. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:06:00 -
[5026] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:gascanu wrote:Rab See wrote:Ok - tried the vargur in bastion last night.
... Short range weapons - its pointless fitting bastion - so you are back to square one. not even square one, i have to say, cose of the mobility nerfs...  True. Before the release i thought it will be like this. (In my mind the Marauders had T2 resists even out of bastion) Vargur LVL 4.
- Slowboat to gate
- on the way, kill all the crap which is in your range
- at the gate, switch on bastion and kill all the crap which is NOW in your range.
Golem Cruise
- Slowboat to gate
- Kill all the big stuff
- at the gate, switch on bastion and receive explo-velocity to kill all the small crap
But you can forget both. Torp-Golem sucks in missis and is beaten by raven and CNR.
on TQ a golem pwns all mobs while slowboating to the gate on sisi you need to use bastion to pwn the bots because the hull doesnt work without it zzz
CCP can we now get some normal attribute buffs to tq marauders ( similar on how t1 bs got served ) instead of that bastion and mjd thingy ??? |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:10:00 -
[5027] - Quote
Gwen Ambraelle wrote:Tested the Pally today. All I have to say about it is - awesome! Tachs or Pulses, this thing rules.
But the other ships need work.
Kronos - Either rail damage needs a buff or return it's 125 mb drone bandwith/bay - Blasters are too limiting if you are MJD'ing all over the place. Yes for closeup PvP this thing would be a monster, but for ranged missions it's just blah.
Vargur - Shield bonus is stacking penalised? Not sure that's a good thing.
Golem - I know very little about missile ships, so I've no comment.
So to the great French god of re-balancing - Good job on the Pally, don't mess with it now. Give the Kronos some punch at range.
Cheers.
no ship bonus in the game as far as I know is stack penalized. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:16:00 -
[5028] - Quote
Fact remaisn, ships that tank 2 times more than ships that ALREADY overtanked is useless.
MJD is WORSE than old mobility with a good deadspace AB. So its a HUGE nerf to mobility (pve wise). THe change in signature and mobility make them much weaker for PVP.
THe immunity to ewar i sminimal efffect, since no one cares for the battleships that cannot move and doe snot have more damage than a normal ship. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:24:00 -
[5029] - Quote
I say it on other thread and will say it here: Marauders are now like bad sandwich... One piece of meat and 10 slices of bread... (overtanked, don't needed)
Perfect video ilustrating this situation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evz51gNn_zM
just change to: "i want to introduce You bastion" then she say: "hi! i can tank 40k damage in missions" rest like in video... |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:31:00 -
[5030] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Fact remaisn, ships that tank 2 times more than ships that ALREADY overtanked is useless.
MJD is WORSE than old mobility with a good deadspace AB. So its a HUGE nerf to mobility (pve wise). THe change in signature and mobility make them much weaker for PVP.
THe immunity to ewar i sminimal efffect, since no one cares for the battleships that cannot move and doe snot have more damage than a normal ship.
I mean the tank bonus is okay, because you can get rid of a lot med slot items on a shield tank. My Vargur was perfect with X-Large shield booster, 2 specific hardeners. Normally i have an additional Invul and a heavy cap-booster. now i have two tracking computer, or one and a web.
But what gives me Bastion if the fall-off bonus does not apply? why use the TCs if they steal bastions advantage? |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:41:00 -
[5031] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Fact remaisn, ships that tank 2 times more than ships that ALREADY overtanked is useless.
MJD is WORSE than old mobility with a good deadspace AB. So its a HUGE nerf to mobility (pve wise). THe change in signature and mobility make them much weaker for PVP.
THe immunity to ewar i sminimal efffect, since no one cares for the battleships that cannot move and doe snot have more damage than a normal ship. I mean the tank bonus is okay, because you can get rid of a lot med slot items on a shield tank. My Vargur was perfect with X-Large shield booster, 2 specific hardeners. Normally i have an additional Invul and a heavy cap-booster. now i have two tracking computer, or one and a web. But what gives me Bastion if the fall-off bonus does not apply? why use the TCs if they steal bastions advantage?
Why would anybody need a XL booster, 2 Hardeners, 1 Invu and a cap booster on a Vargur today? I mean serious?
[Vargur, How To] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Gistum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Medium Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Garde II x2 Warrior II x3 Warrior II x2
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:43:00 -
[5032] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Fact remaisn, ships that tank 2 times more than ships that ALREADY overtanked is useless.
MJD is WORSE than old mobility with a good deadspace AB. So its a HUGE nerf to mobility (pve wise). THe change in signature and mobility make them much weaker for PVP.
THe immunity to ewar i sminimal efffect, since no one cares for the battleships that cannot move and doe snot have more damage than a normal ship. I mean the tank bonus is okay, because you can get rid of a lot med slot items on a shield tank. My Vargur was perfect with X-Large shield booster, 2 specific hardeners. Normally i have an additional Invul and a heavy cap-booster. now i have two tracking computer, or one and a web. But what gives me Bastion if the fall-off bonus does not apply? why use the TCs if they steal bastions advantage? Why would anybody need a XL booster, 2 Hardeners, 1 Invu and a cap booster on a Vargur today? I mean serious? [Vargur, How To] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Gistum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Medium Remote Armor Repair System II Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II Garde II x2 Warrior II x3 Warrior II x2
Because my vargur is cheaper |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:52:00 -
[5033] - Quote
Well the changes are completely pointless for people that are actually at the controls of her pc and try to get the grid done as fast as possible to focus on more interesting stuff in eve. 
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
139
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 10:57:00 -
[5034] - Quote
Having tested it on Sisi: Give the Kronos its web bonus back, the falloff bonus is a terrible substitute.
1. With null, Neutron II's and 2 mag stabs you push 756 DPS at 26km (50% falloff) - that's a whole 5km further than on TQ... wow, amazing 
2. In Bastion, that pushes up to 35km. Superb. For comparison, 425 MM Railgun II's do 805 DPS at 36kmGǪ.
3. Hull falloff bonus is a bit pointless for Railguns when you can use the 5 sec reload to switch to the appropriate ammo
4. Railgun fits are hampered by the loss of sentry drones
4. Hull falloff bonus in place of a web bonus kills the damage application with Void (6.75km optimal) - pretty big deal for Incursion runners, high-end WH stuff, and not to mention PvP.
5. The hull moves slower than a stuck pig now, before you could do interesting dual-prop shenanigans with MJD and a deadspace AB
As discussed before. Go back on the hull bonus changes, get bastion and MJD bonus working properly then move forward. I've still seen no dev explain the justification for removing the web bonus.
And yes, before someone else jumps in with "hur hur, no one uses the Kronos in PvP" - of course they ******* do, the web bonus combined with the utility highs were the whole point to using it (over a Vindicator for example).
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:00:00 -
[5035] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
[Vargur, How To] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Gistum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Medium Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Garde II x2 Warrior II x3 Warrior II x2
Your fit is cool in nullsec or in systems that are near the ass of the world, for normal highsec there is too much blingbling, you paint a big red cross on your hull. After the "addon" our ehp will be less then now, if you fly this - it's only a question in time to be ganked. That's a further problem with nerf this and this... i don't undock without a damage control, but it's me, maybe i'm the only one who handle it this way.
|

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:09:00 -
[5036] - Quote
I count this for paladin and I should have around 1000+ dps on 75 optimal (multi) or 900+ on 90+ (gamma) optimal so I am pretty happy and thanks to cap change I have free slots. And this values were even with 1600 omni tank (which is not needed, but it should work like moving artilerry with enough tank even without bastion and if needed just use bastion but it wont be needed in most of the missions). The optimal range bonus helps a lot for paladin :-)
I can even fit afterburner and have less range which will be maybe even better because I wont be slow as hell when I need to move to gate ...
The bad thing is that it must stay on one place:-( |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:09:00 -
[5037] - Quote
Most of problems would be fixed by non-stacking penalized range bonuses and selectable jump distance for MJD (even if its only for marauders) |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:12:00 -
[5038] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Most of problems would be fixed by non-stacking penalized range bonuses and selectable jump distance for MJD (even if its only for marauders)
If there will be selectable jump bonus it will be really great and it will solve lot of problems. Without that I still considering that I will fit MJD and afterburner instead of tracking computer |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:15:00 -
[5039] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:The Djego wrote:
[Vargur, How To] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Gistum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Medium Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Garde II x2 Warrior II x3 Warrior II x2
Your fit is cool in nullsec or in systems that are near the ass of the world, for normal highsec there is too much blingbling, you paint a big red cross on your hull. After the "addon" our ehp will be less then now, if you fly this - it's only a question in time to be ganked. That's a further problem with nerf this and this... i don't undock without a damage control, but it's me, maybe i'm the only one who handle it this way.
I actually used it most of the time in Low Sec, don't use to busy systems in high sec, keep a eye out when I move around and can live with a 1B fitting on it(still horrible ISK/player involved ratio for serious gankers). With the changes my 4 TC/4 Gyro mach is just miles better anyway so I will probably sell it(I really liked the point that it isn't such a ammo waster than the mach is, especially for low sec, where you don't get 100k faction ammo in the system next door like in high sec). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8158
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:16:00 -
[5040] - Quote
People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on. |
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:21:00 -
[5041] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on.
People need to stop to think with their "maybe i use this ship in pvp one day" hats on.
The majority uses this ship class in PvE, and the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few  |

baltec1
Bat Country
8158
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:34:00 -
[5042] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:baltec1 wrote:People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on. People need to stop to think with their "maybe i use this ship in pvp one day" hats on. The majority uses this ship class in PvE, and  the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few 
Thats only because the ships were terrible for pvp. CCP intend to not only make them able to do pvp but make them viable against everything else out there so demanding all of these pve changes that would make them useless for pvp are not going to happen. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:45:00 -
[5043] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:baltec1 wrote:People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on. People need to stop to think with their "maybe i use this ship in pvp one day" hats on. The majority uses this ship class in PvE, and  the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few  Thats only because the ships were terrible for pvp. CCP intend to not only make them able to do pvp but make them viable against everything else out there so demanding all of these pve changes that would make them useless for pvp are not going to happen.
Now many entities use a Blaster Kronos with Buffer and the 90% web in PVP in a small Gang often in a wh to apply the damage with the impressive huge blaster cannons. They use the Kronos over the Vindicator, because of the utility slots it brings f++r Sb or heavy neuts. With the new Marauder balance the 90% web is gone, if this **** will happen. You can't use your new gimmick "bastion" or you can't get remote rep. So now the Vindi brings a 90% and more firepower, so why still use the Kronos over the Vindi? |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:48:00 -
[5044] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Thats only because the ships were terrible for pvp. CCP intend to not only make them able to do pvp but make them viable against everything else out there so demanding all of these pve changes that would make them useless for pvp are not going to happen.
But thats not true. If i had the money and the bravery to fly a Vargur in PVP i would ask for the same thing. Move the resists to the hull and make it a viable T2 ship. Keep the bonus from MJD but re add the web bonus. Give Golem a second modifier for missiles.
All this in this forum has nothing to do with bastion and all of this would support a role in PVP. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8158
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:55:00 -
[5045] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
Now many entities use a Blaster Kronos with Buffer and the 90% web in PVP in a small Gang often in a wh to apply the damage with the impressive huge blaster cannons. They use the Kronos over the Vindicator, because of the utility slots it brings f++r Sb or heavy neuts. With the new Marauder balance the 90% web is gone, if this **** will happen. You can't use your new gimmick "bastion" or you can't get remote rep. So now the Vindi brings a 90% and more firepower, so why still use the Kronos over the Vindi?
You don't.
The kronos isn't another vindi variation, its going to be its own ship used for different jobs. A web is near useless on a ship that cannot move or even catch other BS when outside of bastion.
What you use this for is sniping, gate and station camping, extended blaster range fits with EA-frigs providing the webs to the full 50+ km range.
These ships are looking good for small gang roams ect. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 11:56:00 -
[5046] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:baltec1 wrote:People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on. People need to stop to think with their "maybe i use this ship in pvp one day" hats on. The majority uses this ship class in PvE, and  the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few  Thats only because the ships were terrible for pvp. CCP intend to not only make them able to do pvp but make them viable against everything else out there so demanding all of these pve changes that would make them useless for pvp are not going to happen.
They are still utterly terrible for pvp(like any active tanking brick).
Hint, by fixing them for pve(and I exactly posted how a few times in the thread) you actually make them useful for pvp to, since shooting crosses and squares in the overview is based on the same mechanics.
The changes just make the niche ships both for pvp(dock range camping) and pve(lazy player pve), and straight worse for any kind of use outside of it.
baltec1 wrote: The kronos isn't another vindi variation, its going to be its own ship used for different jobs. A web is near useless on a ship that cannot move or even catch other BS when outside of bastion.
It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:20:00 -
[5047] - Quote
Ok a short list of what this ship could do well (good line) and why it won't (bad line).
1. Level 4 missions:
Good: it has superb range, massive tank that lets you go semi afk, allows fewer tank modules so more dps/application modules. e-war immunity (win!).
Bad: it's immobile - you lose time to get to another pocket, time to get out of bastion, time to align when you come out of bastion, you will shoot rats at 100 km (so groups of rats can be in some cases 200 km apart) where they spawn so it will be hard salvage even with noctis let alone the marauder itself... while good for lazy and cautious pilots it's ISK/hr rate will be bad. Using MJD for 2-step Pythagoras jump may work but it will not increase speed (2min to perform this maneuver x number of gates in mission).
2. Solo PvP
Good: massive tank, e-war immunity, spare utility highs (neuts).
Bad: its immobile. unless u instapop a target it will sooner or later leave your tackle range and simply run off. Also solo PvP with a dead-slow ship that has no cov-ops cloak or bubble immunity or be just cheap is just insanity IMHO. It will just die to any passing gang or gate camp. I don't think adding web bonus back would solve the problem.
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
4. WH sleepers
Good: high omni resists, high range, good dmg application. As with fleet pvp rep bonus could be ignored in favor of buffer tank.
Bad: if it's a buffer tank it needs carriers to rep it. They can't. Outside bastion it loses range and resists advantage. Not good in bastion, not good outside bastion.
5. Incursions
No idea about that pls make a comment.
Summary:
1. CCP failed at marauders before they started. They failed to answer what this ship is supposed to do. It's not specialized, it's not universal (bastion). It potentially can do a lot of things but other ships can do them better.
2. Don't think it will be that good even for lvl 4 missions...
3. Version with t2 resists also sucks if CCP thinks of going back t to it.
4. Main problem is the bastion which sucks. It's immobility coupled with lack of useful bonuses (except e-war immunity) make this ship really bad in this mode. And since CCP nerfed the hull to justify bastion, this ship fails also outside bastion.
5. Marauder can do one thing very well: it has sick active tank. Unfortunately this has a rather limited use. It's either to much (lvl 4) or to little (WH 5-6, fleets).
Solution:
1. Actually turning those ships into giant HAC would solve most of the above problems (but itGÇÖs unlikely).
2. Bastion could give only range and ewar immunity, 30% resists should be part of the hull (NOT t2 resists). Bastion should disallow remote repping but NOT movement.
3. CCP take your MJD and try to use it. If you can find a good application for it pls let us know. For now give us MWD or AB bonus.
4. Unnerf the hull.
5. Don't improve sensors. Leave e-war immunity on bastion. If i get jammed I either sit nad cry or I commit to bastion.
6. Don't improve dornes - their nerf is fine.
7. If u don't want to give bastion a dps bonus don't make hull useless withut it. Make it an emergency device that will allow to clear e-war rats (in PvP) or deal with heavy e-war but not heavy dps fleets.
8. Pls reveal to us the great secret of what this t2 specialized ship is specialized at.
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:25:00 -
[5048] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:
5. Incursions
No idea about that pls make a comment.
In one word, pointless, since you don't active tank, the web nerf makes them useless for VGs and the speed nerf horrible for bigger sites in contests(that is for armor marauders, shield marauders where pointless and continue being just that with the updates). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:27:00 -
[5049] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter).
You might want to look up what it is I am famous for before throwing that accusation about. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:31:00 -
[5050] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter).
You might want to look up what it is I am famous for before throwing that accusation about.
I remember you for all your nonsense you posted in hybrid and gallente threads over the years. I know who you are. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:42:00 -
[5051] - Quote
The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter).
You might want to look up what it is I am famous for before throwing that accusation about. I remember you for all your nonsense you posted in hybrid and gallente threads over the years. I know who you are.
Megathron hulls are what I do and CCP teircide and blaster balances have gone along the same path I have suggested.
I know how these hulls work and you thinking that they need a web bonus so that rails can hit smaller targets in pvp at close range is just daft. Gal could do with a long range rail BS as opposed to yet another vindi blaster boat that would not get used because the vindi would be better at that job anyway. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:49:00 -
[5052] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
lol you got it all wrong here: they are not mini dreads, why the hell ppl keep saying that? they will be alphaed on the the grid no matter of your local tank...
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 12:57:00 -
[5053] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
lol you got it all wrong here: they are not mini dreads, why the hell ppl keep saying that? they will be alphaed on the the grid no matter of your local tank...
How to you want to alpha them if they will be buffer fit? 2 Plates, 2 EANM, 3 dmg mods, 2 trimarks. Pls tell me how u alpha that buffer. I said IF you IGNORE lokal tank...
|

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:01:00 -
[5054] - Quote
And what about that statement that You (CCP) want them to be better at damage application?
Well it's bullsh...
- stacking penalized range and probably tracking (didn't check that yet) bonuses won't helping in that ffs...
- standing still wont help at damage application
- overall it's even nerf to damage application lol
Terrible changes, CCP decide role for them, fast agile BS's or DPS monsters, because they don't have any useful role now, and pirate BS's have all... speed, drones, agility, buffer, deeps, ewar, application bonuses etc. and don't tell me they will get rebalance because You know You wont nerf them that much, maybe only taking them tracing bonuses, so still they will be superior in every aspect.
I suggest remove active tanking bonus from bastion, make 20% omni resists, allow remote reps, cut speed by 70%, range bonuses non-stacking penalized, bring T2 Bastion with 50% speed reduction, 30% omni resists and 40% range bonuses. With unnerfing speed of base hulls, or allow range selection for MJD (from 20km to 100km with cool range choose slider) |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:04:00 -
[5055] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter).
You might want to look up what it is I am famous for before throwing that accusation about. I remember you for all your nonsense you posted in hybrid and gallente threads over the years. I know who you are. Megathron hulls are what I do and CCP teircide and blaster balances have gone along the same path I have suggested. I know how these hulls work and you thinking that they need a web bonus so that rails can hit smaller targets in pvp at close range is just daft. Gal could do with a long range rail BS as opposed to yet another vindi blaster boat that would not get used because the vindi would be better at that job anyway.
Fitted with blasters any hull is miles more useful with a web strength bonus than one without it in solo/small gang pvp, because the web bonus actually allows to hit the target properly, give you range control at point blank and it also fixes the major flaw of rails up close(tracking, what actually made them a halve way useful pve weapon).
As it blaster ship it trades in utility, a better tank, better cargo for cap charges and better resists against a extra med and the much higher dps of the Vindi, what just needs a few adjustments to get to a point where it would actually be a good alternative(it is allready with rails in my personal opinion, mostly because of the much better fitting and cap).
The Kronos currently is a fairly mobile rail projection platform that combines good speed with huge range and good utility. With the changes it loses to much sentry dps to be worth it, the active tank stuff is pointless as soon as 2-3 logis are on the field, the range bonus of bastion is pointless because you are extreme easy to tackle if you have to sit still for 1-2 minutes and the lower speed just makes it impractical choice both as rail ship and blaster platform in pvp.
Overall it is just a lot worse then the current Kronos, since the oversized active tank is only useful in a few niches, while the speed, dps and web nerf handy cap it for any other application in pvp and pve all the time. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
551
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:04:00 -
[5056] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:gascanu wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
lol you got it all wrong here: they are not mini dreads, why the hell ppl keep saying that? they will be alphaed on the the grid no matter of your local tank... How to you want to alpha them if they will be buffer fit? 2 Plates, 2 EANM, 3 dmg mods, 2 trimarks. Pls tell me how u alpha that buffer. I said IF you IGNORE lokal tank...
My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.
That's insane... I can also hold several cap boosters...
Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.
However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles.. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:08:00 -
[5057] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:gascanu wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
lol you got it all wrong here: they are not mini dreads, why the hell ppl keep saying that? they will be alphaed on the the grid no matter of your local tank... How to you want to alpha them if they will be buffer fit? 2 Plates, 2 EANM, 3 dmg mods, 2 trimarks. Pls tell me how u alpha that buffer. I said IF you IGNORE lokal tank...
i don't know what you think by "fleet pvp" but in my book, fleet pvp means at least 2 fleets of around 150+ and 1-2 bomber fleets; if you think a fleet of that size can't alpa your marauder sitting at 0 m/s... |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:12:00 -
[5058] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.
That's insane... I can also hold several cap boosters...
Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.
However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..
You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
175
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:12:00 -
[5059] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.
That's insane... I can also hold several cap boosters...
Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.
However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..
My Kronos can rep up 1/3 of the armor in one cycle, still you will horrible die once you have some neuts on you and meal storms with ASBs already can tank insane amounts and are also just niche ships in pvp, outside being alpha fitted and buffer tanked for fleet use. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

David Kir
Tailender
237
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:15:00 -
[5060] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:gascanu wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
lol you got it all wrong here: they are not mini dreads, why the hell ppl keep saying that? they will be alphaed on the the grid no matter of your local tank... How to you want to alpha them if they will be buffer fit? 2 Plates, 2 EANM, 3 dmg mods, 2 trimarks. Pls tell me how u alpha that buffer. I said IF you IGNORE lokal tank...
The same way other ships are cleared off, even if buffer fit. A fleet that can alpha a small-sigged, relatively mobile Damnation will have no trouble instapopping a giant, stationary marauder.
|
|

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:24:00 -
[5061] - Quote
David Kir wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:gascanu wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
3. Fleet PvP
Good: like a mini dread being immobile could be worth it. Actually it's better than dread because it not only gets active tank bonus but also passive resist bonuses. Just as large fleet dreads ignore their rep bonus in favor of buffer tank so could a marauder.
Bad: the whole point of committing dreads to siege even when ignoring their active rep bonus is the fact that it gets a massive dps boost in siege. Without such bonus committing marauder to a stationary position is pointless. And I canGÇÖt be remotely repped...
lol you got it all wrong here: they are not mini dreads, why the hell ppl keep saying that? they will be alphaed on the the grid no matter of your local tank... How to you want to alpha them if they will be buffer fit? 2 Plates, 2 EANM, 3 dmg mods, 2 trimarks. Pls tell me how u alpha that buffer. I said IF you IGNORE lokal tank... The same way other ships are cleared off, even if buffer fit. A fleet that can alpha a small-sigged, relatively mobile Damnation will have no trouble instapopping a giant, stationary marauder.
True, but whats your point? In theory a buffer dread can get alphad, but people still fly them. All I'm saying is that a buffer fit Marader could be a valid fit if it got some bonuses justifying it's immobility. It's a good comparison because even if you can alpha a dread, a fleet of them will still have a point in using siege. Marauder using bastion is worthless in fleet situations. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:24:00 -
[5062] - Quote
After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.
One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:27:00 -
[5063] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
Fitted with blasters any hull is miles more useful with a web strength bonus than one without it in solo/small gang pvp, because the web bonus actually allows to hit the target properly, give you range control at point blank and it also fixes the major flaw of rails up close(tracking, what actually made them a halve way useful pve weapon).
As a blaster ship it trades in utility, a better tank, better cargo for cap charges and better resists against a extra med and the much higher dps of the Vindi, what just needs a few adjustments to get to a point where it would actually be a good alternative(it is already with rails in my personal opinion, mostly because of the much better fitting and cap).
The Kronos currently is a fairly mobile rail projection platform that combines good speed with huge range and good utility. With the changes it loses to much sentry dps to be worth it, the active tank stuff is pointless as soon as 2-3 logis are on the field, the range bonus of bastion is pointless because you are extreme easy to tackle if you have to sit still for 1-2 minutes and the lower speed just makes it impractical choice both as rail ship and blaster platform in pvp.
Overall it is just a lot worse then the current Kronos, since the oversized active tank is only useful in a few niches, while the speed, dps and web nerf handy cap it for any other application in pvp and pve all the time.
You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:48:00 -
[5064] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.
how the hell a 90% web is not usefull on a bs sized ship? can you give an example of such a ship? this ships won't see much pvp with they new bastion mod, except for station games for example and there a 90% web will be very useful...
Quote:You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it
lol...how the hell can he be a long range ship if you are not able to dictate range??? that long range ship will become very fast a close range gank  just because you cannot see what use 90% web have on such a ship does not mean they are worthless
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1305
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:48:00 -
[5065] - Quote
The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
It is very useful on a rail/sentry ship(because it allows it to hit up close) and for various other pve and pvp stuff. The problem is simply that you got no clue about Marauders(or gallente hulls and hybrids for that matter).
You might want to look up what it is I am famous for before throwing that accusation about. I remember you for all your nonsense you posted in hybrid and gallente threads over the years. I know who you are. Megathron hulls are what I do and CCP teircide and blaster balances have gone along the same path I have suggested. I know how these hulls work and you thinking that they need a web bonus so that rails can hit smaller targets in pvp at close range is just daft. Gal could do with a long range rail BS as opposed to yet another vindi blaster boat that would not get used because the vindi would be better at that job anyway. Fitted with blasters any hull is miles more useful with a web strength bonus than one without it in solo/small gang pvp, because the web bonus actually allows to hit the target properly, give you range control at point blank and it also fixes the major flaw of rails up close(tracking, what actually made them a halve way useful pve weapon). As a blaster ship it trades in utility, a better tank, better cargo for cap charges and better resists against a extra med and the much higher dps of the Vindi, what just needs a few adjustments to get to a point where it would actually be a good alternative(it is already with rails in my personal opinion, mostly because of the much better fitting and cap). The Kronos currently is a fairly mobile rail projection platform that combines good speed with huge range and good utility. With the changes it loses to much sentry dps to be worth it, the active tank stuff is pointless as soon as 2-3 logis are on the field, the range bonus of bastion is pointless because you are extreme easy to tackle if you have to sit still for 1-2 minutes and the lower speed just makes it impractical choice both as rail ship and blaster platform in pvp. Overall it is just a lot worse then the current Kronos, since the oversized active tank is only useful in a few niches, while the speed, dps and web nerf handy cap it for any other application in pvp and pve all the time.
Don't waste your time fighting this guy. He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.
Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:48:00 -
[5066] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.
One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants.
golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;] the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:54:00 -
[5067] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.
That's insane... I can also hold several cap boosters...
Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.
However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..
You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle.
And how exactly would any other action help me?
If i'm 1 shot alpha'd with iteration 1, i'll be one shot alpha'd with anything else CCP could do to these ships apart from giving them capital EHP.
How is being alpha'd even a consideration? Nothing will save you from this..
Quote:My Kronos can rep up 1/3 of the armor in one cycle, still you will horrible die once you have some neuts on you and meal storms with ASBs already can tank insane amounts and are also just niche ships in pvp, outside being alpha fitted and buffer tanked for fleet use.
Again, if you can alpha my ship down, then no amount of logistics and buffer tank will save me.
As far as neuts, many of us have mentioned that since these ships can't receive cap, they should be immune to neut. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:56:00 -
[5068] - Quote
gascanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:
You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.
how the hell a 90% web is not usefull on a bs sized ship? can you give an example of such a ship? this ships won't see much pvp with they new bastion mod, except for station games for example and there a 90% web will be very useful... Quote:You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it lol...how the hell can he be a long range ship if you are not able to dictate range??? that long range ship will become very fast a close range gank  just because you cannot see what use 90% web have on such a ship does not mean they are worthless
Tell me, how do you dictate range while unable to move?
Then tell me how a 90% web that will realistically have a 15km rage will be good on a ship that cannot move when something like 80% of ships out there will have a greater range than that?
The chance to use those webs will be rare and quite frankly the vindi will simply be better at this job. The one and only reason people are pushing for it is for PVE. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:58:00 -
[5069] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.
One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants. golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;] the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them
the only time I have ever relied on mobility when missioning was with a Drake and a Tengu.
Never once have I kited with a BS, expecially a Marauder.
Currently on test I am getting 106m/s with my Golem... Not fast, but not as slow as I thought it was going to be. I fit a MWD as opposed to an MJD because it's just more useful.
I would very much like to see CCP give them a MWD cap usage bonus AND an MJD bonus. Most players are only going to be using one or the other, as they have a high fitting demand. So let the players choose. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 13:59:00 -
[5070] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Don't waste your time fighting this guy. He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.
Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.
My heart bleeds for you min/maxers. I want a ship that can do PvP and a PvE focused ship is useless for this. |
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:01:00 -
[5071] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.
One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants. golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;] the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them
I mean with these two ship you can projekt damage much better, than with the other two (Kronos / Vargur). For them is the speed nerf bad. They loose to much damage at sittig stil, the Golem and the Paladin projekt much better.
This means not, that i like the bastion thing. If i can decide it, nastion in this form would never happen. The Djego is right with his posts.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:02:00 -
[5072] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Don't waste your time fighting this guy. He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.
Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.
My heart bleeds for you min/maxers. I want a ship that can do PvP and a PvE focused ship is useless for this.
Perhaps you should fly another ship then?
Marauders have been PVE focused since they were introduced.
I suppose you're waiting on the Pirate/faction rebalance, ""as these are not the ships you're looking for"" |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:03:00 -
[5073] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.
That's insane... I can also hold several cap boosters...
Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.
However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..
You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle. And how exactly would any other action help me? If i'm 1 shot alpha'd with iteration 1, i'll be one shot alpha'd with anything else CCP could do to these ships apart from giving them capital EHP. How is being alpha'd even a consideration? Nothing will save you from this.. Again, if you can alpha my ship down, then no amount of logistics and buffer tank will save me. As far as neuts, many of us have mentioned that since these ships can't receive cap, they should be immune to neut.
sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live; in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:05:00 -
[5074] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.
One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants. golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;] the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them I mean with these two ship you can projekt damage much better, than with the other two (Kronos / Vargur). For them is the speed nerf bad. They loose to much damage at sittig stil, the Golem and the Paladin projekt much better. This means not, that i like the bastion thing. If i can decide it, nastion in this form would never happen. The Djego is right with his posts.
I would say the ship that's getting the most benefit from the range buff is the one that actually doesn't really need it.
With my skills out of bastion a cruise Golem can project Fury to 166km. With bastion it hits 208km.
That's a 42km range bump. It's awesome, but again, like I stated, i don't really need that on a cruise Golem. However, a torp golem doesn't get hardly crap from this bonus... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:12:00 -
[5075] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Don't waste your time fighting this guy. He has not had to grind income in a long long time, and he get's his jollies ganking high sec freighters and PvE ships. This is the ultimate gank, encouraging CCP to nerf an entire line of PvE ships, hammering PvE income.
Rest assured, if this guy is rooting for a change, it is horrible for PvE players, which he is most certainly not.
My heart bleeds for you min/maxers. I want a ship that can do PvP and a PvE focused ship is useless for this. Perhaps you should fly another ship then? Marauders have been PVE focused since they were introduced. I suppose you're waiting on the Pirate/faction rebalance, ""as these are not the ships you're looking for""
I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
176
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:19:00 -
[5076] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.
That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.
In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint job(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos anyway).
You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for her limited niche pvp and pve use with the changes. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:23:00 -
[5077] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.
In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos).
You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for pvp and pve.
PvE frigs are nothing like frigs in PvP.
This is where you are falling down. You are trying to balance these ships with PvE in mind thinking that they will also be good at PvP. This is simply not the case. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:25:00 -
[5078] - Quote
The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote: You keep on ignoring the fact that the vindi can move to keep your enemy in web range where as the kronos cannot move. 90% webs will work well if you can keep them in antimatter range but given that almost every fight happens in null range and that the kronos cannot move and no web you fit to it can reach as far the the blasters can go there is no point at all in fitting them.
You litereally cannot dictate range in the new kronos. Its a long range boat and as such webs have no part to play on it. The best use for webs is for one of your gang mates to be in one of the new EA-Frigs providing web goodness out to something like 80km. For close range you can use someone in a dedicated frig killer or slap on smartbombs or med neuts and use your lights to kill it. Battleship class guns, especially rails are never going to hit these even with a 90% web on a stationary ship. A web bonus would be just another wasted bonus like the tractors in pvp.
That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform. In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos). You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for her limited niche pvp and pve use with the changes.
I'm going to have to disagree a bit.
First, if CCP designs another t2 ship, then that ship should be the pvp focused ship, as Marauders have always been PVE focus.
From what I gather, Marauders are meant for solo PVE, which as they are on test... They do quite well.
As they are on test server, I feel that I would be able to do a lvl 5 mission quite well, which I wouldn't have even considered attempting with a Marauder pre iteration 1, and I still wouldn't consider with iteration 2. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:26:00 -
[5079] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
That is exactly why I think the hole bastion thing is pointless to begin with. Btw groups of the current marauders are used to 2 volley frigs in pve gangs and far better at it than any frig or medium platform.
In my opinion CCP should leave the current marauders as they are(or finally fix them as I posted so many times in this thread ) and introduce the new idea as a 2. marauder BS, with the same hull and a slightly different paint(I don't like the copper on the new Kronos).
You can also make them cheaper this way(a 500-600M price tag would make them more reasonable for WH solo pve and pvp), because I don't really think the new marauder idea is anywhere useful enough given the current price tag. both for pvp and pve.
PvE frigs are nothing like frigs in PvP. This is where you are falling down. You are trying to balance these ships with PvE in mind thinking that they will also be good at PvP. This is simply not the case.
No, CCP designed them with PVE in mind, and noted they would have niche abilities in PVP.
Read OP |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:30:00 -
[5080] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.
Quote:Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10 Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric
yes, cose this are the stats for a very good pvp ship: slow like hell, alining "faster" than a carrier, and with a sensor sthrenth of an t1 cruiser - noone use ecm anyway . but that don't count cose you have bastion mode, lol |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
176
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:35:00 -
[5081] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree a bit.
First, if CCP designs another t2 ship, then that ship should be the pvp focused ship, as Marauders have always been PVE focus.
From what I gather, Marauders are meant for solo PVE, which as they are on test... They do quite well.
Fit some torps and a mwd on the Golem, see how terrible it is. If you need that much tank you doing it wrong, tanking L4(2 slots) with the changes is so hilarious easy, it is not even funny and it frees up not a single slot and makes the performance overall worse.
Joe Risalo wrote:As they are on test server, I feel that I would be able to do a lvl 5 mission quite well, which I wouldn't have even considered attempting with a Marauder pre iteration 1, and I still wouldn't consider with iteration 2.
Marauders can do them already if you dualbox a logi and a marauder(super duper easy) or like any other people that seriously do L5 a carrier(it is stated in every single post about L5).
The only time you need this much tank in pve, there are more effective ways to do this already(logis), and a cheaper 2. hull variation for WH or people that want to active tank L5(right before they get ganked) and pvp would be overall more useful. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:49:00 -
[5082] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
My Golem boosts for 26% of my shield with an X-L pith X shield booster while bastioned.
That's insane... I can also hold several cap boosters...
Basically, if you can completely one shot by Golem, the I wouldn't have had a chance anyway.
However, even if you have High aplha, I can refill my shields in 4 cycles..
You don't do much PvP do you? Even if u could rep 50% of your shields, 10-15 Tornados (sorry don't want to count exact figure) would one-shot you. You would not be able to run a single rep cycle. And how exactly would any other action help me? If i'm 1 shot alpha'd with iteration 1, i'll be one shot alpha'd with anything else CCP could do to these ships apart from giving them capital EHP. How is being alpha'd even a consideration? Nothing will save you from this.. Again, if you can alpha my ship down, then no amount of logistics and buffer tank will save me. As far as neuts, many of us have mentioned that since these ships can't receive cap, they should be immune to neut. sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live; in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder
Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all.
If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is) |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:51:00 -
[5083] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:yes, cose this are the stats for a very good pvp ship: slow like hell, alining "faster" than a carrier, and with a sensor sthrenth of an t1 cruiser - noone use ecm anyway  . but that don't count cose you have bastion mode, lol Fast enough to get around without too many issues. The only fleets I rule these out on are frigate fleets.
haha, i see, nice troll 
|

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1267
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:55:00 -
[5084] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.
Thing is that apart from the "niche" part these ships bring nothing to the pvp table another battleship can't do as good. On paper maybe, in a very tiny amount of examples probably, for pvp (in general) nope. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:56:00 -
[5085] - Quote
gascanu wrote:haha, i see, nice troll 
I take Megathrons on frigate roams and fleets. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:58:00 -
[5086] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:baltec1 wrote: I suppose you skipped over the part where CCP Ytterbium said these ships will be made viable for pvp and not focused on pve.
Thing is that apart from the "niche" part these ships bring nothing to the pvp table another battleship can't do as good. On paper maybe, in a very tiny amount of examples probably, for pvp (in general) nope.
They are the only snipers that can take a punch in small gang fights. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:00:00 -
[5087] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:gascanu wrote:
............................................................................................................................................. sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live; in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder
Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all. If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is)
well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost; making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action. and no, that mjd bonus won't help  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:03:00 -
[5088] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:gascanu wrote:
............................................................................................................................................. sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live; in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder
Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all. If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is) well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost; making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action. and no, that mjd bonus won't help 
Agreed. However, it's not like we're losing anything here. We're actually gaining more, seeing as how mobility never helped.
At least now we have tank to be able to accomplish something. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:06:00 -
[5089] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:haha, i see, nice troll  I take Megathrons on frigate roams and fleets.
you like to fell special, eh? |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:10:00 -
[5090] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:gascanu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:gascanu wrote:
............................................................................................................................................. sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live; in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder
Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all. If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is) well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost; making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action. and no, that mjd bonus won't help  Agreed. However, it's not like we're losing anything here. We're actually gaining more, seeing as how mobility never helped. At least now we have tank to be able to accomplish something.
if you claim that mobility never helped so let me link you smt  https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=284795&find=unread your own topic |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:10:00 -
[5091] - Quote
gascanu wrote:
you like to fell special, eh?
I like my Megathrons and pushing them to their limits. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:13:00 -
[5092] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:gascanu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:gascanu wrote:
............................................................................................................................................. sry but you are wrong: basically is a combination of sig tank+rr that will save you; moving around with sig bonuses means that a good part from the incoming dmg will not apply; in a large fleet fight time dilatation/lag will give you a small window of several seconds for logis to start reping you, and if you are lucky you may live; in bastion mod tho, you are at 0m/s and can't get rr, =dead marauder
Even before the Mobility nerfs, Marauders were too slow and their sig was too large to be able to negate much damage at all. If you can be alpha'd down with iteration 1, you certainly would have been alpha'd down as it is on live, and with iteration 2, and for any other possible changes for that matter.(balanced changes that is) well, maybe that's why noone used them in fleet fights? they are too expensive and t1 bs can do the same job at a fraction of the cost; making them them imobile or nerfing mobility won't make them see much more action. and no, that mjd bonus won't help  Agreed. However, it's not like we're losing anything here. We're actually gaining more, seeing as how mobility never helped. At least now we have tank to be able to accomplish something. if you claim that mobility never helped so let me link you smt https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=284795&find=unread your own topic
yeah, and???
That topic and the topic at hand are two different things.
If I DC, i'm not tanking... If i'm Bastioned and connected, I'm tanking just fine.
Huge difference between combat mobility, and DC safety warp... |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:15:00 -
[5093] - Quote
Set up a vargur last night on SiSi. It was much easier to fit on the powergrid side With 800mm AC I was sitting at around 900 dps (3x gyros and burst + collision rigs), had a TC and a TE. Falloff in bastion was just shy of 100km with Barrage. I will be moving out to null tonight to test it more on targets. I will test both AC and Arty fits.
Resist profile was excellent in bastion with 2x invuls only. 4 slot tank so far and I will be trying it with both dual ASB and deadspace 4 slot tanks. I will be using my CNR (which is really good at running anoms and usually out ticks my AC / Arty setups at 60km+ ranges to test against to see if the extra projection will allow for more applied dps from those ranges.
My current thoughts:
This is pretty insane projection for ACs.
I still feel there is too much going on here, the tractor bonus, the somewhat useless highs if your not salvaging, the overtank (2x XL ASB had 2000+ rep / 4 sec before the bastion). The ship can relocate and setup easily now. I really like that, it is just the ship seems all over the place with its design. Conceptually it is sound I think.
The ships need larger drone bays badly. i think that 100mb bandwidth / 175 space would work really well, allow for 4x sentries (which would really blend well with the stationary aspect of the Bastion module) and provide the extra dps boost these things need to be really competitive without stepping on other ships toes. Setup around 100km from targets, keep that 100 km target range by jumping every 60 seconds. Each time dropping Sentry Drones to add to dps. As of now 2x sentry drones is really not worth dropping. The current drone bay is also pretty useless as it is just 50/50. If we keep it lower than most battleships they should all at least have 50/75 for a full flight of lights and mediums. |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:19:00 -
[5094] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Solution:
1. Actually turning those ships into giant HAC would solve most of the above problems (but itGÇÖs unlikely).
2. Bastion could give only range and ewar immunity, 30% resists should be part of the hull (NOT t2 resists). Bastion should disallow remote repping but NOT movement. It should obviously disallow warping.
3. CCP take your MJD and try to use it. If you can find a good application for it pls let us know. For now give us MWD or AB bonus.
4. Unnerf the hull.
5. Don't improve sensors. Leave e-war immunity on bastion. If i get jammed I either sit nad cry or I commit to bastion.
6. Don't improve dornes - their nerf is fine.
7. If u don't want to give bastion a dps bonus don't make hull useless withut it. [...]
8. Pls reveal to us the great secret of what this t2 specialized ship is specialized at.
Something along these lines I agree with. Especially along the lines of #1. |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:25:00 -
[5095] - Quote
Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:31:00 -
[5096] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes
Not true...
I would say the crowd is split 50-50 on bastion. I personally love it.
HOWEVER, what 99% of us CAN agree on, is that the nerfs to the hull to push bastion and MJD weren't necessary at all.
Those nerfs had little to no effect on bastion mode.
All they did was force the module to be mandatory.
I like bastion and will use it as long as it stays this way.
However, NO ONE will use the base hull without bastion.
It's the hull that needs looked at.
Make the hulls viable, then implement bastion, and possibly apply fitting penalties. That way players can't just fly around in what would basically be two different ships.
Bastion, or lack of bastion should be a commitment. If you want it on your ship, you should be using it.
If you don't want it on your ship, then you shouldn't be able to swap back and forth |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
675
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:31:00 -
[5097] - Quote
marVLs wrote:... vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes
EFT is kind of useless compared to field testing on SiSi, don't you think so? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:31:00 -
[5098] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes
90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
675
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:34:00 -
[5099] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:marVLs wrote:Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes 90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.
Can I be the PvE player who wants to do missions with them and see PvP players do interesting things with them too? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:38:00 -
[5100] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:marVLs wrote:Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes 90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now. Can I be the PvE player who wants to do missions with them and see PvP players do interesting things with them too?
TBH, while these may not be uber pvp ships, I think we're going to see a lot of "LOL, WTF?!?" PVP videos out of these.
Yes, they may be extremely niche, but I think it will be hilarious to watch them perform in those niche roles. |
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:40:00 -
[5101] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.
Ok, i get a mission. I have to undock and warp to my destination, that is maybe from 1 to 5 Jumps away (in the region i fly). With the Inertia nerf and the warpspeed nerf, it's total cool to jump around. You lost dps trough less bandwith for drones. Then in the mission i have a few gates (i have to warp!), after finishing it, yes! I have to warp back...
I think, you don't use this ships really - or even have the skills to use it? Have you tested it? Even when the Bastion thing gets a little extra dps, the mission runner will be slower. If you can't test themselfs don't post here, thanks.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
555
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:44:00 -
[5102] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:baltec1 wrote:
90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.
Ok, i get a mission. I have to undock and warp to my destination, that is maybe from 1 to 5 Jumps away (in the region i fly). With the Inertia nerf and the warpspeed nerf, it's total cool to jump around. You lost dps trough less bandwith for drones. Then in the mission i have a few gates (i have to warp!), after finishing it, yes! I have to warp back... I think, you don't use this ships really - or even have the skills to use it? Have you tested it? Even when the Bastion thing gets a little extra dps, the mission runner will be slower. If you can't test themselfs don't post here, thanks.
I have tested, and the warp mechanics don't make much difference at all.
With gates, my Golem goes 106m/s. I was able to drop a tank mod thanks to bastion, and now fit an MWD(not MJD). I go about 600m/s to the gate.
Thanks to dropping a tank mod, I can actually get to gates with my Golem faster than I used to be able to. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:45:00 -
[5103] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:baltec1 wrote:
90% of the posts are from PvE players who want to do missions even faster than now.
Ok, i get a mission. I have to undock and warp to my destination, that is maybe from 1 to 5 Jumps away (in the region i fly). With the Inertia nerf and the warpspeed nerf, it's total cool to jump around. You lost dps trough less bandwith for drones. Then in the mission i have a few gates (i have to warp!), after finishing it, yes! I have to warp back... I think, you don't use this ships really - or even have the skills to use it? Have you tested it? Even when the Bastion thing gets a little extra dps, the mission runner will be slower. If you can't test themselfs don't post here, thanks.
As I said, PvE min/max players.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:46:00 -
[5104] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes
was in route to null but i got sleepy :) I will tonight. It has a good 30km more falloff than my mach on TQ. We can disagree on the drone bay thing, I think it gives a certain amount of synergy with the design. It is a T2 ship it should have more damage than the T1 / Faction as that is how all the other lines are from frig to cruiser. |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:52:00 -
[5105] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:marVLs wrote:... vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes EFT is kind of useless compared to field testing on SiSi, don't you think so?
From when 74km falloff in eft is different from 74km falloff in game? How hard is to understand that You don't need to be in game to quickly check how you gain almost no range in bastion?
Joe Risalo <== i was refering to overall dissatisfaction about those changes, bastion or hulls. As was said before marauders with those changes are worse than before for their main activities: lvl4s, incursions. |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:57:00 -
[5106] - Quote
So was on the sisi server today. First what did CCP do to my Golem? It's more ugly then the old Scorp model. Give me back my Raven body and face, I'm good with keeping the cool thing going on with the new Golem's neck, but everything else change it back! Next the bastion mode, it's nice having more defense, but really it doesn't help much at all with missiles, no extra range, no better with sign radius or damage or RofF or anything, but it does help guns, COME ON?! Also the bastion mode just doesn't help defense enough to matter, even in PvE sanctums or 10 of 10 will rock a Marauder in bastion mode. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:57:00 -
[5107] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:marVLs wrote:... vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes EFT is kind of useless compared to field testing on SiSi, don't you think so? From when 74km falloff in eft is different from 74km falloff in game? How hard is to understand that You don't need to be in game to quickly check how you gain almost no range in bastion? Joe Risalo <== i was refering to overall dissatisfaction about those changes, bastion or hulls. As was said before marauders with those changes are worse than before for their main activities: lvl4s, incursions.
I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff. |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:06:00 -
[5108] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
What ammo? How many TC?
Because when using 3xTC with EMP ammo FallOff goes with bastion from 73km to 78km? And with 2xTC (why would anyone fly with only 2 i dunno, it's just bad) it jumps from 63km to 71km. So are those numbers worth to stand still instead of burning to target and increasing DPS? I guess there's no need to comment more... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
556
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:09:00 -
[5109] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:marVLs wrote:Let's see, warp speed changes: 99% satisfied with it, same goes with other Rubicon features, changes but on marauders? 99% players are disappointed/dont wan't it/says it's bad.
So how does that say about these changes? How many times players agreed on something in such a huge percentage numbers?
TheFace Asano <== no they don't need bigger drones bandwigh and vargur is tbh the worst of all now, and it gains almost nothing of range in bastion, go test it, even there's a EFT files with Rubicon changes was in route to null but i got sleepy :) I will tonight. It has a good 30km more falloff than my mach on TQ. We can disagree on the drone bay thing, I think it gives a certain amount of synergy with the design. It is a T2 ship it should have more damage than the T1 / Faction as that is how all the other lines are from frig to cruiser.
I'm fine with the damage as it is, however, considering these ships focus on ONLY tank and dps, I think a dps buff may be called for.
Pirate bs's get high dps with mobility and utility, so I don't see them conflicting with each other. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
556
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:10:00 -
[5110] - Quote
marVLs wrote:
Joe Risalo <== i was refering to overall dissatisfaction about those changes, bastion or hulls. As was said before marauders with those changes are worse than before for their main activities: lvl4s, incursions.
I disagree again.
Well, at least on the part of lvl 4's. They're way better at lvl 4's than they were before.
Incursions, ehh, this is where the dissatisfaction with the hull itself comes into play. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
556
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:14:00 -
[5111] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:So was on the sisi server today. First what did CCP do to my Golem? It's more ugly then the old Scorp model. Give me back my Raven body and face, I'm good with keeping the cool thing going on with the new Golem's neck, but everything else change it back! Next the bastion mode, it's nice having more defense, but really it doesn't help much at all with missiles, no extra range, no better with sign radius or damage or RofF or anything, but it does help guns, COME ON?! Also the bastion mode just doesn't help defense enough to matter, even in PvE sanctums or 10 of 10 will rock a Marauder in bastion mode.
HUH??
With torps, bastion doesn't help much. With cruise, bastion give another 40+ km, though not important.
As far as tank... Dude.... Toss on a xl booster and you'll be boosting 20% shields or more per cycle. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:14:00 -
[5112] - Quote
marVLs wrote:TheFace Asano wrote: I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
What ammo? How many TC? Because when using 3xTC with EMP ammo FallOff goes with bastion from 73km to 78km? And with 2xTC (why would anyone fly with only 2 i dunno, it's just bad) it jumps from 63km to 71km. So are those numbers worth to stand still instead of burning to target and increasing DPS? I guess there's no need to comment more...
I will double check ranges / ammo type in game tonight. You might be bugged. I only had a TC and a TE |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
556
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:16:00 -
[5113] - Quote
marVLs wrote:TheFace Asano wrote: I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
What ammo? How many TC? Because when using 3xTC with EMP ammo FallOff goes with bastion from 73km to 78km? And with 2xTC (why would anyone fly with only 2 i dunno, it's just bad) it jumps from 63km to 71km. So are those numbers worth to stand still instead of burning to target and increasing DPS? I guess there's no need to comment more...
Currently, bastion range is stacking penalized. So, you're not getting anything out of one of your TC's if not 2 of them |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:19:00 -
[5114] - Quote
what if bastion mode do the complete 180 of what it is doing now?
when bastion mode is on,
-100% repair/boost -30% resist -25% weapon range
+100% velocity
+200% agility
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:19:00 -
[5115] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:
I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
I got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and EMP L - 74 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 69 km i got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and Barrage L - 116 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 106 km
And still i get the weapon timer, everytime i use the Bastion mode. That makes it impossible to use a gate or dock... |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:23:00 -
[5116] - Quote
Anyone like the idea of having Marauders be Heavy Assault Battleships? Bastion or not? |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:24:00 -
[5117] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:
I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
I got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and EMP L - 74 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 69 km i got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and Barrage L - 116 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 106 km And still i get the weapon timer, everytime i use the Bastion mode. That makes it impossible to use a gate or dock...
Yup that looks about right on the ranges.
Weapons timer was in the original proposal. That is on purpose. |

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:27:00 -
[5118] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:what if bastion mode do the complete 180 of what it is doing now?
when bastion mode is on,
-100% repair/boost -30% resist -25% weapon range
+100% velocity
+200% agility
There the issue there is that subtracting percentages is way more harmful than adding them. +100% is doubling something. -100% is completely removing it. You might want that to say -50% which is maybe what you had in mind. I also don't like the idea of having negative resists in some areas. If the numbers were more in line I might go out and get one of these blown up while burning around and laughing at people who tried to web me, only once though. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1346
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:29:00 -
[5119] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Well it seems that Marauders are nearly invulnerable if you fit them right.
I don't really know what to make of this.
against a blappy dread?
those seem to be the only real counter to them... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:29:00 -
[5120] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:Anyone like the idea of having Marauders be Heavy Assault Battleships? Bastion or not?
Sure, with the new rapid heavy missile launcher full T2 resists, ect. I use a Cerberus for many of the lvl 4s that require a lot of travel, I would love to use my Golem for them instead. |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1346
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:31:00 -
[5121] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
The idea is to not make them as dedicated pve ships.
for high sec wars and situations where you do not have to worry about capital ships they are pretty nice for pvp...
i was busy killing lots of sub caps with the pvp fit kronos till i warped onto 4 blappy dreads and then i was dead. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:33:00 -
[5122] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:
I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
I got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and EMP L - 74 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 69 km i got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and Barrage L - 116 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 106 km And still i get the weapon timer, everytime i use the Bastion mode. That makes it impossible to use a gate or dock... Yup that looks about right on the ranges. Weapons timer was in the original proposal. That is on purpose.
Is it possible to tank w just 2 mids + bastion and add a 3rd tc? Like:
Bastion 800mm II x4
TC x 2 TC / AB Invuln SB MJD
Gyro x 3 or 4 TEs / DC / inert / nano |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1347
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:40:00 -
[5123] - Quote
ok 3 changes that need to be made to the ship to make them fun.
1. give them the old field command ship tech II resistance profile (reduce the 30% resist for shield and armor in bastion mode to be the same as a DCU II)
This will give the ship utility in non bastion mode but not make it op like full tech II resist would
2. remove the tractor beam bonus and replace with a heat bonus (not a bonus to reduces heat buildup but one that makes heat more effective)
3. make the bastion module scripted. have one long range script that adds range bonus (make it un stacked) and have a close range script that adds damage.
4. i know i said 3 but 4 just came to mind. not sure they even need the 8th high slot perhaps changing a high slot for a mid or low depending on the ship... like the kronos could really use that 5th mid slot. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:42:00 -
[5124] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:
I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
I got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and EMP L - 74 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 69 km i got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and Barrage L - 116 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 106 km And still i get the weapon timer, everytime i use the Bastion mode. That makes it impossible to use a gate or dock... Yup that looks about right on the ranges. Weapons timer was in the original proposal. That is on purpose. Is it possible to tank w just 2 mids + bastion and add a 3rd tc? Like: Bastion 800mm II x4 TC x 2 TC / AB Invuln SB MJD Gyro x 3 or 4 TEs / DC / inert / nano
I would say on the Vargur go
High 800mm II x4 Bastion Tractor maybe salvage or other utility
Mid TCx2 AB/MWD (not MJD) 2xinvuln SB
low 4x gyro And then whatever else you want |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1347
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:44:00 -
[5125] - Quote
oh and can someone explain why my math is wrong.
afaik 60% resists multiplied by 30% resists should end up being
0.6 * 1.3 = 0.78 or 78% resistance
but in the game the Resistance for hull is 73%
i just want to know how to correct my math please and thank you.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:46:00 -
[5126] - Quote
All I'm saying is missiles need a bit more boost too like gunnery is getting. And the tank is worthless against anyone who neuts, and in PvP |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:47:00 -
[5127] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:ok 3 changes that need to be made to the ship to make them fun.
1. give them the old field command ship tech II resistance profile (reduce the 30% resist for shield and armor in bastion mode to be the same as a DCU II)
This will give the ship utility in non bastion mode but not make it op like full tech II resist would
2. remove the tractor beam bonus and replace with a heat bonus (not a bonus to reduces heat buildup but one that makes heat more effective)
3. make the bastion module scripted. have one long range script that adds range bonus (make it un stacked) and have a close range script that adds damage.
4. i know i said 3 but 4 just came to mind. not sure they even need the 8th high slot perhaps changing a high slot for a mid or low depending on the ship... like the kronos could really use that 5th mid slot.
After playing with it.. Golem could go for another low or mid as opposed to a high. Right now i have two empty high slots cause I don't have enough CPU and PG to fill them.
My fit currently is
High 4x Cruise II Bastion Tractor II
Mid 2x PWNAGE MWD prototype(can't fit t2 and not buying ded for testing) large Cap booster II Pith x XL booster 2x Invuln II
Low 4x BCU II
Rigs Damage rig exp radius rig
No CPU or PG left to fit even a salvager in the two empty highs |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:49:00 -
[5128] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:oh and can someone explain why my math is wrong.
afaik 60% resists multiplied by 30% resists should end up being
0.6 * 1.3 = 0.78 or 78% resistance
but in the game the Resistance for hull is 73%
i just want to know how to correct my math please and thank you.
It's based on the hull without skills or modules. That's probably where your math is whacked out. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:51:00 -
[5129] - Quote
now it would be a good time for CCP to finaly show their presence here im sure we could come with smt rly good for the marauders instead of all that blap bla about how bad this or that iteration is :] rubi is supposed to go live in 1 month :/ |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:51:00 -
[5130] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:All I'm saying is missiles need a bit more boost too like gunnery is getting. And the tank is worthless against anyone who neuts, and in PvP
Cruise missiles get 40+km more with bastion. Torp get close to nothing....So that sucks...
Myself and others have mentioned cap immunity, as they can't receive cap, same as logistics.
The tank is nice in pvp for certain situations.
I'm thinking these ships are too expensive in low/null where you might get hotdropped, but in lower class WH and in high sec where capitals can't go, these ships will probably get used quite a bit in pvp... |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:52:00 -
[5131] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say on the Vargur go
High 800mm II x4 Bastion Tractor maybe salvage or other utility
Mid TCx2 AB/MWD (not MJD) 2xinvuln SB
low 4x gyro And then whatever else you want
The only drawback I see is that this is kinda what they run already (although personally I go dmg specific) so the current iteration is just a straight nerf to that fit. I am wondering if it is poss to tank say, AE bonus room, with inuln, sb, bastion, such that a mid is freed. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:55:00 -
[5132] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say on the Vargur go
High 800mm II x4 Bastion Tractor maybe salvage or other utility
Mid TCx2 AB/MWD (not MJD) 2xinvuln SB
low 4x gyro And then whatever else you want
The only drawback I see is that this is kinda what they run already (although personally I go dmg specific) so the current iteration is just a straight nerf to that fit. I am wondering if it is poss to tank say, AE, with inuln, sb, bastion, such that a mid is freed.
Well, considering you still have lows left over, you can fit a DCU and remove an invuln. That would free up a mid and make almost no change to your tank... |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:01:00 -
[5133] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say on the Vargur go
High 800mm II x4 Bastion Tractor maybe salvage or other utility
Mid TCx2 AB/MWD (not MJD) 2xinvuln SB
low 4x gyro And then whatever else you want
The only drawback I see is that this is kinda what they run already (although personally I go dmg specific) so the current iteration is just a straight nerf to that fit. I am wondering if it is poss to tank say, AE, with inuln, sb, bastion, such that a mid is freed. Well, considering you still have lows left over, you can fit a DCU and remove an invuln. That would free up a mid and make almost no change to your tank...
Interesting, ty for the replies. Imma get around to getting sisi setup and testing... One of these days xD |

Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:03:00 -
[5134] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:oh and can someone explain why my math is wrong.
afaik 60% resists multiplied by 30% resists should end up being
0.6 * 1.3 = 0.78 or 78% resistance
but in the game the Resistance for hull is 73%
i just want to know how to correct my math please and thank you.
60% resistance. 40% left. 30% of 40% is 12% 60%+12% = 72%. "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
558
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:05:00 -
[5135] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say on the Vargur go
High 800mm II x4 Bastion Tractor maybe salvage or other utility
Mid TCx2 AB/MWD (not MJD) 2xinvuln SB
low 4x gyro And then whatever else you want
The only drawback I see is that this is kinda what they run already (although personally I go dmg specific) so the current iteration is just a straight nerf to that fit. I am wondering if it is poss to tank say, AE, with inuln, sb, bastion, such that a mid is freed. Well, considering you still have lows left over, you can fit a DCU and remove an invuln. That would free up a mid and make almost no change to your tank... Interesting, ty for the replies. Imma get around to getting sisi setup and testing... One of these days xD
It's pretty easy... All you have to do is copy/paste your game file into a new file and create a shortcut to that. Then, on the shortcut you just add another command.
Google Eve online Test server and go to the Wiki. There should be a link off there that will tell you exactly what to do.
Once you've done that, and patched, then add the in game chat channel Move Me. Type bastion in that chat channel and they'll give you bastion and Marauders lvl 5. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
566
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:32:00 -
[5136] - Quote
marVLs wrote:And what about that statement that You (CCP) want them to be better at damage application? Well it's bullsh...
- stacking penalized range and probably tracking (didn't check that yet) bonuses won't helping in that ffs...
- standing still wont help at damage application
- overall it's even nerf to damage application lol
Terrible changes, CCP decide role for them, fast agile BS's or DPS monsters, because they don't have any useful role now, and pirate BS's have all... speed, drones, agility, buffer, deeps, ewar, application bonuses etc. and don't tell me they will get rebalance because You know You wont nerf them that much, maybe only taking them tracing bonuses, so still they will be superior in every aspect. I suggest remove active tanking bonus from bastion, make 20% omni resists, allow remote reps, cut speed by 70%, range bonuses non-stacking penalized, bring T2 Bastion with 50% speed reduction, 30% omni resists and 40% range bonuses. With unnerfing speed of base hulls, or allow range selection for MJD (from 20km to 100km with cool range choose slider)
Bastion is useless just that. The CURRENT marauders can run missiosn better than the upcommign ones.
And both are useless at PVP. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country
8159
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:37:00 -
[5137] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bastion is useless just that. The CURRENT marauders can run missiosn better than the upcommign ones.
And both are useless at PVP.
The new one is rather good fun in PvP. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
558
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:37:00 -
[5138] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:marVLs wrote:And what about that statement that You (CCP) want them to be better at damage application? Well it's bullsh...
- stacking penalized range and probably tracking (didn't check that yet) bonuses won't helping in that ffs...
- standing still wont help at damage application
- overall it's even nerf to damage application lol
Terrible changes, CCP decide role for them, fast agile BS's or DPS monsters, because they don't have any useful role now, and pirate BS's have all... speed, drones, agility, buffer, deeps, ewar, application bonuses etc. and don't tell me they will get rebalance because You know You wont nerf them that much, maybe only taking them tracing bonuses, so still they will be superior in every aspect. I suggest remove active tanking bonus from bastion, make 20% omni resists, allow remote reps, cut speed by 70%, range bonuses non-stacking penalized, bring T2 Bastion with 50% speed reduction, 30% omni resists and 40% range bonuses. With unnerfing speed of base hulls, or allow range selection for MJD (from 20km to 100km with cool range choose slider) Bastion is useless just that. The CURRENT marauders can run missiosn better than the upcommign ones. And both are useless at PVP.
that's a flat out LIE.
I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.
Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds. |

Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:39:00 -
[5139] - Quote
My notes on Maruaders using 1st version (ie resistance in bastion, +37.5% repair/boost)
Tested using short ranged weapons and long ranged weapons. Break point does not include bastion mode.
Golem 1040 dps 27km Torp Golem 768 dps 177km Cruise Break point 27km (in bastion mode and one large rocket fuel cache partition I rig for Torp)
Paladin 564 dps 26-42km pulse to 235 dps 85-100km pulse Paladin 520 dps Optimal 58km fallout 96... to 220dps 188-226km.. Beam Break point 25km
Kronos 642 dps 6-40km to 320 dps 17-51km blaster Kronos 488 dps 46-115km to 244 dps 131-199km Rails Break point 22km
Vargur 556 dps 4-68km to 230 dps 13-78 km Vargur 430 dps 38-138km to 178 dps 124-224 km Break point 38km
So 2 ways to use. Long ranged weapons and use bastion mode for the increased ranged. Short ranged weapons using the MJD to jump out at an angle and then jumping back in to land on top of target. Bastion mode used for tanking and when you have enough targets in range that you do not have to chase them.
Long range. Pro: less cap used for repairs. Once in place able to keep applying DPS constantly. Easier to hit small frigates at 100km as they burn right at you (no transversal velocity) easier to keep situational awareness Con less DPS on paper. Long lock times at that range. 3 slots mid (MJD. Targeting Computer, Sensor Booster)
Short Range. Pro: pew pew (ie more action than picking targets at range), Cap recharges during the 50secs between double jump, higher DPS during engagement Con: not firing during the 50s in the middle of a double jump. Several NPC ships will move away as soon as you land and all move toward you when you jump out. 3-4 slots mid (MJD. Targeting computer(or target painter), afterburner to try and keep NPC in range). Short optimal range on paper (but the break point between when the short range weapons out damage the long range weapons is 22-38km) you have to pull out and figure out which way to jump to try and adjust range. Easier to lose situational awareness.
Easiest way to do a double jump. pull out bring up the tactical display and jump from 70-90 degrees, then use the 50s to fly away or toward the target to get range closer to 100km. align and jump on target. with a double jump you should land anywhere from 0 to 200km away from you in any direction in 50 secs.
Target
1st MJD target
You
Looking at v2 Resistance on ship and not bastion mode will help with the close in weapons during maneuver phase (but may take another slot for hardener. Web bonus will help short range ships by stopping the ship from getting away and making it easier to take out small targets. Web bonus will help long range ships as well if a ship gets inside 10km by making it easier to track that ship.
So with my skills and the way I fly. both short and long range weapons are viable. "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
566
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 17:41:00 -
[5140] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:marVLs wrote:And what about that statement that You (CCP) want them to be better at damage application? Well it's bullsh...
- stacking penalized range and probably tracking (didn't check that yet) bonuses won't helping in that ffs...
- standing still wont help at damage application
- overall it's even nerf to damage application lol
Terrible changes, CCP decide role for them, fast agile BS's or DPS monsters, because they don't have any useful role now, and pirate BS's have all... speed, drones, agility, buffer, deeps, ewar, application bonuses etc. and don't tell me they will get rebalance because You know You wont nerf them that much, maybe only taking them tracing bonuses, so still they will be superior in every aspect. I suggest remove active tanking bonus from bastion, make 20% omni resists, allow remote reps, cut speed by 70%, range bonuses non-stacking penalized, bring T2 Bastion with 50% speed reduction, 30% omni resists and 40% range bonuses. With unnerfing speed of base hulls, or allow range selection for MJD (from 20km to 100km with cool range choose slider) Bastion is useless just that. The CURRENT marauders can run missiosn better than the upcommign ones. And both are useless at PVP. that's a flat out LIE. I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar. Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.
Maybe the galoem, but with the vargur i am right. Vargur main asset was how fast it moved and crossed gates.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 18:02:00 -
[5141] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:
I did check in game and the falloff increased to almost 100km falloff.
I got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and EMP L - 74 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 69 km i got with 2 TC (T2 with range script) and Barrage L - 116 km falloff in Bastion mode and without 106 km And still i get the weapon timer, everytime i use the Bastion mode. That makes it impossible to use a gate or dock... Yup that looks about right on the ranges. Weapons timer was in the original proposal. That is on purpose. Is it possible to tank w just 2 mids + bastion and add a 3rd tc? Like: Bastion 800mm II x4 TC x 2 TC / AB Invuln SB MJD Gyro x 3 or 4 TEs / DC / inert / nano
I had dual XL ASB on mine, I haven't tested in combat because I was getting tired after I got one fitted. The tooltip had 2100 hp boost / cycle on the dual ASB setup before bastion. . With 2x invuls and bastion your resists are in a pretty good place. I would say for normal use 1x XL deadspace booster + 2x invuls would be plenty, then use a cap booster. I would pull a high and add a mid to the Vargur, pull a high with the Golem and add a low, probably the same on the Kronos / Paladin and it would be more useful, still leaving 2x utility highs..
I did have 2x empty highs with the dual ASB setup and a cpu mod in the low, though. without the second XL booster you should be fine on cpu.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 18:06:00 -
[5142] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:My notes on Maruaders using 1st version (ie resistance in bastion, +37.5% repair/boost)
Tested using short ranged weapons and long ranged weapons. Break point does not include bastion mode.
Golem 1040 dps 27km Torp Golem 768 dps 177km Cruise Break point 27km (in bastion mode and one large rocket fuel cache partition I rig for Torp)
Paladin 564 dps 26-42km pulse to 235 dps 85-100km pulse Paladin 520 dps Optimal 58km fallout 96... to 220dps 188-226km.. Beam Break point 25km
Kronos 642 dps 6-40km to 320 dps 17-51km blaster Kronos 488 dps 46-115km to 244 dps 131-199km Rails Break point 22km
Vargur 556 dps 4-68km to 230 dps 13-78 km Vargur 430 dps 38-138km to 178 dps 124-224 km Break point 38km
So 2 ways to use. Long ranged weapons and use bastion mode for the increased ranged. Short ranged weapons using the MJD to jump out at an angle and then jumping back in to land on top of target. Bastion mode used for tanking and when you have enough targets in range that you do not have to chase them.
Long range. Pro: less cap used for repairs. Once in place able to keep applying DPS constantly. Easier to hit small frigates at 100km as they burn right at you (no transversal velocity) easier to keep situational awareness Con less DPS on paper. Long lock times at that range. 3 slots mid (MJD. Targeting Computer, Sensor Booster)
Short Range. Pro: pew pew (ie more action than picking targets at range), Cap recharges during the 50secs between double jump, higher DPS during engagement Con: not firing during the 50s in the middle of a double jump. Several NPC ships will move away as soon as you land and all move toward you when you jump out. 3-4 slots mid (MJD. Targeting computer(or target painter), afterburner to try and keep NPC in range). Short optimal range on paper (but the break point between when the short range weapons out damage the long range weapons is 22-38km) you have to pull out and figure out which way to jump to try and adjust range. Easier to lose situational awareness.
Easiest way to do a double jump. pull out bring up the tactical display and jump from 70-90 degrees, then use the 50s to fly away or toward the target to get range closer to 100km. align and jump on target. with a double jump you should land anywhere from 0 to 200km away from you in any direction in 50 secs.
Target
1st MJD target
You
Looking at v2 Resistance on ship and not bastion mode will help with the close in weapons during maneuver phase (but may take another slot for hardener. Web bonus will help short range ships by stopping the ship from getting away and making it easier to take out small targets. Web bonus will help long range ships as well if a ship gets inside 10km by making it easier to track that ship.
So with my skills and the way I fly. both short and long range weapons are viable.
With my skills and 5% implants, I'm getting 1015 dps with fury cruise at 166km without bastion. 208km with |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
280
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:20:00 -
[5143] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:With my skills and 5% implants, I'm getting 1015 dps with fury cruise at 166km without bastion. 208km with So what's the consensus on the latest Marauder iteration? Yay or nay? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:27:00 -
[5144] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:With my skills and 5% implants, I'm getting 1015 dps with fury cruise at 166km without bastion. 208km with So what's the consensus on the latest Marauder iteration? Yay or nay?
From what i read through the last posts
Paladin yay - quite good with optimal range buff Golem Cyay Tnay - cruise increase in range yay, but why? Torps suck bigtime kronos y-n-ay - big loss of applicable DPS through missing sentries vargur nay - loss of applicable DPS through speed nerf and missing advantage within bastion |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1305
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:32:00 -
[5145] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:With my skills and 5% implants, I'm getting 1015 dps with fury cruise at 166km without bastion. 208km with So what's the consensus on the latest Marauder iteration? Yay or nay?
It is far too early to tell. They have been out for 24 hours.
For those interested in Incursion testing, check out my threads in this forum and the cross-post to the Missions/Complex forum. I am trying to put something together for Thursday at 21:00. but more realistically on the weekend when full testing can occur. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:37:00 -
[5146] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
that's a flat out LIE.
I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.
Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.
Don't be silly, how much missions You got with heavy jamming? Not too much, everywhere else old golem is faster, and with missions that have jammers You stand still, while old version is at next gate, so not such much faster in them overall.
Only few missions are completed faster with this rebalance (only some with heavy ewar), rest of missions takes longer than before |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:42:00 -
[5147] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
that's a flat out LIE.
I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.
Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.
Don't be silly, how much missions You got with heavy jamming? Not too much, everywhere else old golem is faster, and with missions that have jammers You stand still, while old version is at next gate, so not such much faster in them overall. Only few missions are completed faster with this rebalance (only some with heavy ewar), rest of missions takes longer than before
For me the new build is faster. Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion. Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists.
So for me it's faster. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:47:00 -
[5148] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:With my skills and 5% implants, I'm getting 1015 dps with fury cruise at 166km without bastion. 208km with So what's the consensus on the latest Marauder iteration? Yay or nay? From what i read through the last posts Paladin yay - quite good with optimal range buff Golem Cyay Tnay - cruise increase in range yay, but why? Torps suck bigtime kronos y-n-ay - big loss of applicable DPS through missing sentries vargur nay - loss of applicable DPS through speed nerf and missing advantage within bastion
Ok, my impressions are based solely on the Golem.
Yay for bastion. Nay for base hull Yay for cruise missiles(though for no particular reason) Nay for torps cause they still have crap range. Yay for having freed up a tanking mid slot for MWD Nay for MJD bonus Nay for being short on CPU and PG(really tight fit and still have 2 empty highs) Yay for an extra slot Nay for an extra high slot
All in all, it basically boils down to bastion with cruise is awesome. Hull sucks and so do torps.
Oh, and HIP HIP HURRAY!!!! For reduced TP cycle time |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
280
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:49:00 -
[5149] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ok, my impressions are based solely on the Golem. So basically for one of the most important ship classes in EVE, "underwhelming"? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:51:00 -
[5150] - Quote
bastion golem works for me with only 2 adaptive invur and 1 x-l sheild booster, i can tank missions without problems (with bastion)
now i get 4 mid slots free to play around
using 3 x tp and 1 web or 4 tp only a few missions need mjd or mwd i can easily trade out a mid for it
only got skills to use t2 cruise on test server so havnt tried torps yet I use 2 x velocity rigs and with the bastion bonus, the missiles seem to hit instantly even at 50km plus I think none of the missiles got shot down by defenders when bastion is on, but its hard to tell.
i think bastions mode works well on golem not sure about gunboats because their dps depend on transverse and being stationary is bad . |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:54:00 -
[5151] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok, my impressions are based solely on the Golem. So basically for one of the most important ship classes in EVE, "underwhelming"?
Cruise Golem with Bastion is good.
So, I would say Bastion is good apart from figuring out these range bonuses to actually matter.
The base hulls, crap..
So, all in all it's about 50-50.
Meaning, they're half way there with bastion... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
280
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:56:00 -
[5152] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:So, all in all it's about 50-50. Meaning, they're half way there with bastion... Doesn't sound like much of a ringing endorsement to me. So better with Bastion than Iteration 2 or better than the current Golem on Tranquility? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:56:00 -
[5153] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok, my impressions are based solely on the Golem. So basically for one of the most important ship classes in EVE, "underwhelming"? Cruise Golem with Bastion is good. So, I would say Bastion is good apart from figuring out these range bonuses to actually matter. The base hulls, crap.. So, all in all it's about 50-50. Meaning, they're half way there with bastion...
I have a feeling your right. I will chime in later tonight with some anom testing on vargur. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 19:57:00 -
[5154] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:bastion golem works for me with only 2 adaptive invur and 1 x-l sheild booster, i can tank missions without problems (with bastion)
now i get 4 mid slots free to play around
using 3 x tp and 1 web or 4 tp only a few missions need mjd or mwd i can easily trade out a mid for it
only got skills to use t2 cruise on test server so havnt tried torps yet I use 2 x velocity rigs and with the bastion bonus, the missiles seem to hit instantly even at 50km plus I think none of the missiles got shot down by defenders when bastion is on, but its hard to tell.
i think bastions mode works well on golem not sure about gunboats because their dps depend on transverse and being stationary is bad .
If you're using cruise, then you shouldn't need more than 2 TP's, unless your support skills are lacking, in which case go with 3.
Here's my build
Highs CML II Bastion Tractor II
Mids 2x PWNAGE - TP MWD (prototype) large cap booster XL pith-x shield booster 2x invuln
Lows 4x BCU II
Rigs Damage rig Exp radius rig
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:00:00 -
[5155] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:So, all in all it's about 50-50. Meaning, they're half way there with bastion... Doesn't sound like much of a ringing endorsement to me. So better with Bastion than Iteration 2 or better than the current Golem on Tranquility?
I would say that iteration 2 would be crap, and apart from webs, would be worse than what is currently on TQ.
Now, WITH bastion, The Golem out performs what is on TQ by leaps and bounds.
The hull without bastion is useless though...
I think CCP should balance the hulls to be worth a crap. If bastion comes on top of that and makes it too OP, then all CCP has to do is implement some fitting penalties.
In doing this, CCP would be able to create two different ships essentially..
Edit...
Oh, and so far for me (dont' have MJD skill) MJD is useless, but I can actually fit an MWD with bastion, and still go 600m/s. (though cap doesn't last long). At least in bastion you don't need that much cap cause one cycle with my XL pith-x booster reps 26% of my shields. |

marVLs
445
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:06:00 -
[5156] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=marVLs][quote=Joe Risalo] For me the new build is faster. Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion. Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists.
So for me it's faster.
Edit... Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas.
Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard
With more than 900DPS, 400tank is enough. I see no problems fitting old golem (cruise missiles) with more than enough tank, 1xTP, rigors, and MWD being cap stable... even RNI can do that (without TP but don't need it thanks to it's hull bonus).
If someone want to do missions (overall) as fast as possible for maximum profit then old golem was faster. Same goes for Vargur. If You don't do missions for performance don't tell here that's new golem is faster ffs...
As i state it goes for everall missioning, only few missions can be done faster in golem but it's not even 10% of them... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:16:00 -
[5157] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=marVLs][quote=Joe Risalo] For me the new build is faster. Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion. Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists.
So for me it's faster.
Edit... Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas.
Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard With more than 900DPS, 400tank is enough. I see no problems fitting old golem (cruise missiles) with more than enough tank, 1xTP, rigors, and MWD being cap stable... even RNI can do that (without TP but don't need it thanks to it's hull bonus). If someone want to do missions (overall) as fast as possible for maximum profit then old golem was faster. Same goes for Vargur. If You don't do missions for performance don't tell here that's new golem is faster ffs... As i state it goes for everall missioning, only few missions can be done faster in golem but it's not even 10% of them...
With cruise Golem a 400dps tank MAY be enough, as you can take targets down at range. With a torp Golem a 400dps tank is NOT enough tank because once they're in range, you're also in range.
The large sig of these ships, less cap, and less HP mean that they rely heavily on active tanking, and can't do so for very long. Bastion helps to correct this issue.
Now, as I was saying, finally being able to fit an MWD without killing my tank, and bastion meaning that tanking doesn't require near as much cap.. Well, missions are completed quite a bit faster for me. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:47:00 -
[5158] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:marVLs wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:[quote=marVLs][quote=Joe Risalo] For me the new build is faster. Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion. Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists.
So for me it's faster.
Edit... Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas.
Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard With more than 900DPS, 400tank is enough. I see no problems fitting old golem (cruise missiles) with more than enough tank, 1xTP, rigors, and MWD being cap stable... even RNI can do that (without TP but don't need it thanks to it's hull bonus). If someone want to do missions (overall) as fast as possible for maximum profit then old golem was faster. Same goes for Vargur. If You don't do missions for performance don't tell here that's new golem is faster ffs... As i state it goes for everall missioning, only few missions can be done faster in golem but it's not even 10% of them... With cruise Golem a 400dps tank MAY be enough, as you can take targets down at range. With a torp Golem a 400dps tank is NOT enough tank because once they're in range, you're also in range. The large sig of these ships, less cap, and less HP mean that they rely heavily on active tanking, and can't do so for very long. Bastion helps to correct this issue. Now, as I was saying, finally being able to fit an MWD without killing my tank, and bastion meaning that tanking doesn't require near as much cap.. Well, missions are completed quite a bit faster for me.
Honestly I'm not quite understanding how you're used to missioning on live. You already use a deadspace XL booster, how is it possible that you need that much tank? I'm using a Gist B-type large booster, which gives me a 500+ dps tank against sansha/blood raider (weakest resist for Golem). I can run it for 5m 40s, and I've never encountered a mission in which that was even remotely insufficient. So I'm having a hard time imagining how Bastion would help me. I already run a AB with no problem, so your point that it frees up a mid slot for a prop mod is moot because that was just a problem with your own fit.
One thing I'm worried about, but haven't managed to test, is whether Bastion gives immunity to cap warfare. Based on what people have said, it's not supposed to. If that's the case, then Bastion makes XL booster tanks even less efficient. Because you are dropping tank and relying on the boosted shield/cap from Bastion, every unit of cap you lose to neuting is much more devastating. In your fit you use a heavy cap booster to ameliorate this, but with the reduced cap for the Golem I think this could be a big problem for people who don't like to fit cap boosters. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 20:57:00 -
[5159] - Quote
Dorororo wrote: Honestly I'm not quite understanding how you're used to missioning on live. You already use a deadspace XL booster, how is it possible that you need that much tank? I'm using a Gist B-type large booster, which gives me a 500+ dps tank against sansha/blood raider (weakest resist for Golem). I can run it for 5m 40s, and I've never encountered a mission in which that was even remotely insufficient. So I'm having a hard time imagining how Bastion would help me. I already run a AB with no problem, so your point that it frees up a mid slot for a prop mod is moot because that was just a problem with your own fit.
One thing I'm worried about, but haven't managed to test, is whether Bastion gives immunity to cap warfare. Based on what people have said, it's not supposed to. If that's the case, then Bastion makes XL booster tanks even less efficient. Because you are dropping tank and relying on the boosted shield/cap from Bastion, every unit of cap you lose to neuting is much more devastating. In your fit you use a heavy cap booster to ameliorate this, but with the reduced cap for the Golem I think this could be a big problem for people who don't like to fit cap boosters.
Well, I'll be honest and say I haven't tested a cruise Golem on live since they buffed cruise missiles. it used to be that a cruise Golem was crap and torp was the way to go, but that has changed and is now reversed.
I was flying the Golem with torps. When you did so, you couldn't hit targets until they could hit you, and they hammered the crap out of you. The only difference I had between my current fit was no bastion, torps instead of cruise, resist mod instead of MWD, and range rigs. It just got hammered. It couldn't tank missions that I could tank in a standard Raven. This was due to tank, sig, and low cap.
The change to missiles helped the Golem a lot, except for torps.
Still though, the test fit can tank much better than ever on live, and does so without any problems, and without giving up anything, except giving up tank for other modules. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 21:12:00 -
[5160] - Quote
with 5s tp golem is going to be amazing once again I am guessing torp golem will be the way to go. with 2 x t2 flight time riggs , hull velocity bonus and bastion velocity bonus, the jav torpedo should hit 80km and rage 40km. |
|

Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
122
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 21:17:00 -
[5161] - Quote
WHOOOOOH Hold it right there... give me back my Khronos WEB BONUS! I Fing hate these changes now. Completely killed the Khronos if it can't hit anything at close range!  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 21:18:00 -
[5162] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:with 5s tp golem is going to be amazing once again I am guessing torp golem will be the way to go. with 2 x t2 flight time riggs , hull velocity bonus and bastion velocity bonus, the jav torpedo should hit 80km and rage 40km.
part of the problem is pg and CPU.
Also, I think you math is off.
You may want to test it... |

Nerdy Deadshot
Dirt 'n' Glitter I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 22:52:00 -
[5163] - Quote
Alright so I've taken upon myself to bring up some issues I currently have with the Vargur (a ship I'm extremely familiar with), both with the current incarnation and with the proposed changes.
First and foremost, the bastion mod is great, I whipped up a great tank on the test server and was putting out some pretty respectable dps. I would feel comfortable in one in any lvl 4 mission, and it some limited small engagement pvp. But, lets talk about large fleet pvp and incursions.
When it comes down to it, the benefits of the bastion mod are useless if you can not be remote repped, so these mods will probably not be used with large fleets or incursions.
Which brings us back the current problem with incursions and large fleets, the Macharial is simply a better ship. To prove this I set out in pyfa to come up with competing fits for both ships and prove that the dps of the macharial is always better, in both projected and applied, a fact I believe should not be so. These fits are non-blingy fits that I generally use with groups I'm not accustomed to run with and are meant for comparison purposes only, not for trolls to pick apart.
Competitive fits: [Vargur, incursion]
Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter Auto Targeting System II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator I Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
[Machariel, incursion]
Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Projectile Burst Aerator I Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I
The Tracking computer scripts change as needed. Drone dps was ignored, though its worth noting the mach has 50m3 more drone space and 25 mbit/s more bandwidth. All skills level V Major points: (Vargur/Mach) EHP: 79k / 90.9k DPS: 903 / 988 Range: About the same Tracking speed: While the Vargur should be able to maintain between 0.01 and 0.02 rad/sec, due to having inferior DPS its damage projection on moving targets gives only a slight edge when the target is closer, though for the most part close targets should be webbed by someone in the fleet, and as long as a 60degree traveling ship is under 300m/s the extra tracking doesn't help.
With the planned changes, the tank will only get worse of a disproportion while the dps application will stay about the same...
I wholeheartedly believe that the T2 resist profile should be rolled into the hull, and not connected to the bastion mod. If you want connect the shield boost increase to the bastion, or just increase ranges of weapons and ewar. I also believe its time for the Vargur to get a dps increase, by changing the 5% increase in dps to a 7.25%, the dps would be tied and the t2 resist profile would free up slots to allow for better damage projections.
|

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 00:04:00 -
[5164] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:1200 dps at 20+50k is underwhelming? ....
From a pve perspective its still the same story, just better range and tank. I dont know what you expeted. Selectable damage type is the projectiles strength, high tracking on the hybrids, high damage and kickass range with scorch. They're not going to bump all the marauders damage up to the same numbers just for kicks. They're not the same ship.
When the ship is fit for nothing but dps yea it kinda is, also you are rounding up a good bit.
projectiles can select damage type but their damage is barely above cruise missiles, which are pure damage types and can pick any damage type. the high tracking isn't really all that useful in pve missions. tachyons out damage and out range scorch.
and of course they aren't the same ship, but as proposed the Vargur and Kronos are not all that competitive. I'd rather fly a golem or machariel than a vargur, and well, probably anything over a Kronos. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

baltec1
Bat Country
8160
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 00:46:00 -
[5165] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
When the ship is fit for nothing but dps yea it kinda is, also you are rounding up a good bit.
projectiles can select damage type but their damage is barely above cruise missiles, which are pure damage types and can pick any damage type. the high tracking isn't really all that useful in pve missions. tachyons out damage and out range scorch.
and of course they aren't the same ship, but as proposed the Vargur and Kronos are not all that competitive. I'd rather fly a golem or machariel than a vargur, and well, probably anything over a Kronos.
57 km range with null is a very nice thing to have in null anoms. |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 01:45:00 -
[5166] - Quote
I really like the bastion module on the Kronos. Although some may not like the immobility of the bastion mod, it seems to work well as a 'plan b'. The reduced time of the MJD is amazing at keeping someone within range (I was able to keep a Talos with a MWD in range) and even when you activate bastion mode the optimal and falloff bonus helps keep yourself in the fight.
I briefly tried using the Golem and was (barely) able to make it out alive after being ganked by 4 battlecruisers because of the bastion's resists and rep bonuses and the marauder MJD bonus.
I used to use the Kronos for null sec ratting but always found it hard to keep rats in range even with a duel web fit. With bastion mode it will make a very nice ratting ship even without the webs... although I still like webs.
On a side note, I think the 'transformation' for the Kronos is more like popping the hood on a car and not nearly as impressive as the Golem's transformation. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 02:11:00 -
[5167] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:I really like the bastion module on the Kronos. Although some may not like the immobility of the bastion mod, it seems to work well as a 'plan b'. The reduced time of the MJD is amazing at keeping someone within range (I was able to keep a Talos with a MWD in range) and even when you activate bastion mode the optimal and falloff bonus helps keep yourself in the fight.
I briefly tried using the Golem and was (barely) able to make it out alive after being ganked by 4 battlecruisers because of the bastion's resists and rep bonuses and the marauder MJD bonus.
I used to use the Kronos for null sec ratting but always found it hard to keep rats in range even with a duel web fit. With bastion mode it will make a very nice ratting ship even without the webs... although I still like webs.
On a side note, I think the 'transformation' for the Kronos is more like popping the hood on a car and not nearly as impressive as the Golem's transformation.
You think the Golem transformation is impressive?
You have low standards....
On a more serious note, the Golem still suffers from cap recharge issues, and with bastion it's really tight to build a good xl-boost and mwd/MJD fit. I don't think it's even possible with torps |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 02:34:00 -
[5168] - Quote
Can't find any anoms on sisi, but the few belt rats i fought seemed pretty nice, 3 slot tank is completely doable, generous fitting when not dual XL ASB. Projection was ok, but it needs to be non-stacking 25%. 10-15km extra falloff depending on ammo.
I would suggest pulling 2 of the high slots and putting them to mids or lows on all the ships. That would still leave 2 utility highs without bastion, 1 with. Add some damage to bastion, too, something in the range of 15-25 percent. Local tank is not a problem, and additional mids / lows would help incursion runners fit extra buffer tank.
Scripting bastion would be a good idea imo as well. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 03:02:00 -
[5169] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:marVLs wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
that's a flat out LIE.
I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.
Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.
Don't be silly, how much missions You got with heavy jamming? Not too much, everywhere else old golem is faster, and with missions that have jammers You stand still, while old version is at next gate, so not such much faster in them overall. Only few missions are completed faster with this rebalance (only some with heavy ewar), rest of missions takes longer than before For me the new build is faster. Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion. Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists. So for me it's faster. Edit... Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas. Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard
but tq golem could easily run missions with a c type xlarge + 2 a type reses easily with a battery leaving you with 3 high slots to play with ? wheres the gain here ?!?!?!?
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1348
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 03:18:00 -
[5170] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:MeBiatch wrote:oh and can someone explain why my math is wrong.
afaik 60% resists multiplied by 30% resists should end up being
0.6 * 1.3 = 0.78 or 78% resistance
but in the game the Resistance for hull is 73%
i just want to know how to correct my math please and thank you.
60% resistance. 40% left. 30% of 40% is 12% 60%+12% = 72%.
thank you There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 03:28:00 -
[5171] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:marVLs wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
that's a flat out LIE.
I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.
Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.
Don't be silly, how much missions You got with heavy jamming? Not too much, everywhere else old golem is faster, and with missions that have jammers You stand still, while old version is at next gate, so not such much faster in them overall. Only few missions are completed faster with this rebalance (only some with heavy ewar), rest of missions takes longer than before For me the new build is faster. Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion. Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists. So for me it's faster. Edit... Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas. Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard but tq golem could easily run missions with a c type xlarge + 2 a type reses easily with a battery leaving you with 3 high slots to play with ? wheres the gain here ?!?!?!?
The gain is that you can do so while tanking an entire room with little to no issues. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 03:52:00 -
[5172] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on. that's what I'll do with my marauders, so that is what I am most concerned with. the min/max setups are all nearly workable on TQ now. for most missions I probably won't even touch bastion, but I have that option to get huge tank burst.
In pvp terms (I'll look at small gang) I think it is fairly similar.
Paladin apoc/abaddon love child, looks sexy. laser projection is ftw! mobility ain't great though 106m/s on its own 741 with a mwd. gives a nice armor counterpart to the nightmare.
kronos, I think I'd rather have the web bonus, but hey MMO, so having tacklers is important. it is hard to abuse the falloff bonus without a bunch of tracking mods. Also tiny drone bay boo! but I think I'd rather have a vindi. the kronos feels almost more like a rohk than anything else. I still think it would benefit from a bigger drone bay.
golem, again with the have some tacklers idea, the TP bonus is pretty nice to have. Torps seem a bit under rated (although still have some issues). also can do insane things with ASBs. cruise missiles aren't too terrible. I really can't say how this compares to the new cnr, or fleet phoon.
vargur. outside of ASB sillyness I don't see it having much use. maybe get some MJD + arty lulz. I'd rather get a mach and zoom zoom. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 03:58:00 -
[5173] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
When the ship is fit for nothing but dps yea it kinda is, also you are rounding up a good bit.
projectiles can select damage type but their damage is barely above cruise missiles, which are pure damage types and can pick any damage type. the high tracking isn't really all that useful in pve missions. tachyons out damage and out range scorch.
and of course they aren't the same ship, but as proposed the Vargur and Kronos are not all that competitive. I'd rather fly a golem or machariel than a vargur, and well, probably anything over a Kronos.
57 km range with null is a very nice thing to have in null anoms.
indeed it is, but a lot of that is falloff. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
110
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 04:10:00 -
[5174] - Quote
why evem fuss over an xl build when navy large booster lasts longer and overheating hurts it so little... Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 05:08:00 -
[5175] - Quote
1v1 vs Fleet Phoon in Vargur, it was 2x 1600mm fit with RHML. I boosted a couple times with my asb and that is it. Hail ammo has a 34km falloff in bastion, and with the increased tracking of the vargur, it cancels out the bad tracking of hail. didn't use any heat.
PVP these things are pretty damn good until RR comes into play and large numbers. Breaking the tank of these is going to take quite a few ships.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 05:34:00 -
[5176] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:1v1 vs Fleet Phoon in Vargur, it was 2x 1600mm fit with RHML. I boosted a couple times with my asb and that is it. Hail ammo has a 34km falloff in bastion, and with the increased tracking of the vargur, it cancels out the bad tracking of hail. didn't use any heat.
PVP these things are pretty damn good until RR comes into play and large numbers. Breaking the tank of these is going to take quite a few ships.
please post some good fittings with reasonable use of imps (name them), some ship information and 1 or 2 heavy neuts...vargur sucks |

Mc Cormeg
Friends Of Harassment
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 10:13:00 -
[5177] - Quote
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 10:19:00 -
[5178] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: indeed it is, but a lot of that is falloff.
You spend most of the time in falloff with blasters anyway. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 10:20:00 -
[5179] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.
It would make them far too powerful. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
532
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 11:40:00 -
[5180] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them  |
|

Egravant Alduin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 12:38:00 -
[5181] - Quote
After I watched some videos with the new transformer thing I was really disappointed since marauders didn t need this.Already they could use micro jump drive and make their applied dps better.It's a useless mode which makes them not better not worse .I agree with some people in here that it could be better to imrpove their tank than giving them this stpd transformer thing. Anyway not the update anyone needed and this is not balancing . |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:27:00 -
[5182] - Quote
Just stopping by to say I am still a proponent of bastion.
And the hulls themselves need to be rebalanced to be worth a crap.
Take away range bonuses of hull and make it focus purely on tracking. (good tracking) Exchange MJD bonus for MWD bonus (cap usage and/or cap penalty) Give bastion all that extra range
Drop 10% from bastion omni resists and bake it into the hull
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:34:00 -
[5183] - Quote
Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.
That si what I proposed several pages ago. It would give a reason for enemeis to keep shoootign at the mraruders when they enter bastion mode.. because otherwise they would keep repairing allies. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:35:00 -
[5184] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. It would make them far too powerful.
Nope.. would just make bastion into somehtign useful Because as of now bastion only usage is as BAIT ship. And a too obvious bait ship to even work.
There is no reason why anyone would shoot a battleship in bastion mode when there are other targets around. The remote repair would grant that. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:37:00 -
[5185] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them 
marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet" "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:43:00 -
[5186] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them  marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet"
NO!!!!
A RR fitted and bonused Marauder would do nothing but hurt the rest of us.
As soon as one got used in the Alliance Tournament, they would get the crap nerfed out of them..
And since we all know CCP, they would nerf something that kills the ship, instead of simply removing the RR capability...
Even outside of bastion, their self rep amount means they could cap transfer and be able to tank like a champ and RR with the best of them...
Tinker tanks would be unstoppable. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:54:00 -
[5187] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them  marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet" NO!!!! A RR fitted and bonused Marauder would do nothing but hurt the rest of us. As soon as one got used in the Alliance Tournament, they would get the crap nerfed out of them.. And since we all know CCP, they would nerf something that kills the ship, instead of simply removing the RR capability... Even outside of bastion, their self rep amount means they could cap transfer and be able to tank like a champ and RR with the best of them... Tinker tanks would be unstoppable.
That is nto true.. Alliance tournament already had in post rules on RR. Like only a single ship in team may have RR. THat can be easily solved
NEVER EVER spoil a ship just because itsd tournament performance.
Also the RR bonus shoudl be in the BASTIOn module, not not he hull. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 15:03:00 -
[5188] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them  marauders cannot be remote repaired in bastion, so givign them logistic capability woudl not exscalate into somethign overpowered. Would just give the bastion marauders something to be meaningful in a fight. Otherwise the marauders only trick is "being left to be killed by last on the fleet" NO!!!! A RR fitted and bonused Marauder would do nothing but hurt the rest of us. As soon as one got used in the Alliance Tournament, they would get the crap nerfed out of them.. And since we all know CCP, they would nerf something that kills the ship, instead of simply removing the RR capability... Even outside of bastion, their self rep amount means they could cap transfer and be able to tank like a champ and RR with the best of them... Tinker tanks would be unstoppable. That is nto true.. Alliance tournament already had in post rules on RR. Like only a single ship in team may have RR. THat can be easily solved NEVER EVER spoil a ship just because itsd tournament performance. Also the RR bonus shoudl be in the BASTIOn module, not not he hull.
It would be the only logi ship, but cap transfer is not part of logi consideration.
Also, it wouldn't be the first ship to get nerfed post AT |

Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 15:31:00 -
[5189] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Vivi Udan wrote:IOn a side note, I think the 'transformation' for the Kronos is more like popping the hood on a car and not nearly as impressive as the Golem's transformation. You think the Golem transformation is impressive? You have low standards....
"AS impressive" does not mean I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT it simply means it's better than. Sorry for the misunderstanding. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 15:35:00 -
[5190] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. It would make them far too powerful.
so make bastion apply -50% to remote reps, you still get em but they would be significantly less powerful for you then local reps. Really the no remote assistance is a killer for both pvp and pve fleets. |
|
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2787

|
Posted - 2013.10.09 15:54:00 -
[5191] - Quote
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode. |
|

NexusWatcher
Apologetic Tendencies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:03:00 -
[5192] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
That makes me happy. (Unless you just change the web to more range as opposed to velocity...then it would be worth it's weight in ISKies) But I agree the hulls themselves need to be modified albeit slightly. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:16:00 -
[5193] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
HIP HIP HURRAY!!!! |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:19:00 -
[5194] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
My personal problem is not with that. Is with fact aht bastion module is a powerful for nothign module. THere is hardly a situation where this module makes sense. Increased defenses in a falacious way (falacious because nto be remote repaired is more of a nerf than a bufff) is nto relevant. When a marauder get in bastion mode people will just shoot the other ships, because the bastion marauder is not more dangerous in bastion mode than outside.. it is LESS dangerous!!
A commitment like the "sieging" of the bastion mode should come with an increase in threat factor of the ship. The modest buffs on the projection are not enough for that.
You can already tank a level 4 with 1 shield booster and 1 resit module and an AB, so there is no reason why i would ever get into bastion mode! In PVP its even worse situation. On other high end PVE, the huge alpha strike of sleepers for example make the marauder too prone to vaporization before the bastion can save it.
That last situation could be fixed if the ship received more base EHP, but the others need an increase in threat of the ship while in bastion mode to make sense. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:27:00 -
[5195] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mc Cormeg wrote:To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?
That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks. It would make them far too powerful. so make bastion apply -50% to remote reps, you still get em but they would be significantly less powerful for you then local reps. Really the no remote assistance is a killer for both pvp and pve fleets.
Not when they can rep 25% of their armour back every cycle. They can tank many of the small gangs that are out there. |

Taegessia
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:28:00 -
[5196] - Quote
Currently on TQ, max range with torpedos rage is 43.2 km with a CNR using :
1 x 5% hardwiring velocity or flight time, doesnt matter which 1 x T2 velocity Rig 1 x T2 flight time Rig 1 x T1 flight time or velocity Rig , doesnt matter which
As long as you don't use 2 x T2 Rigs of the same type (velociry or flight time) you won't get stack penaltized. All velocity\flight time relevant skills maxed.
In the same sense and with 1 less T1 Range rig slot, the respective TQ max range with torpedos rage for Golem is 38.2 km
** Im unable to test so would appreciate a little feedback on this. If the bastion 25% range bonus is stack penaltized then it becomes aproximately a 21.75% bonus, applying it to the TQ Golem makes its max range with rage torpedos 46.6 km. If its not stack penaltized then its 47.8 km. In either way, PvE wise, its not a bad increase at all, taking into account the huge dps increase with rage torps (in conjuction with tp duration changes).Only a few npc battleships try to orbit you above 45km (<= 51 km).I can imagine fom now getting in L4 rooms with javeling torps at start,clear the more distant targets and then when everything is below say 46-47km switch to bastion\rage and clear the rest.That might be enough to help finish the tougher L4 missions faster.
Ofcourse im not sure if the numbers above are accurate, can anyone confirm? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:29:00 -
[5197] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
Perhaps a tad more CPU too?
There are all of those spare high slots but we cant fit much in them |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:30:00 -
[5198] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
What is their role?
I am feeling the same along the lines of drones. If dropping dps with drone; could that little loss in dps be looked into some other form of compensation to the ship (damage preferably)?
Bastion module benefits some ships more than others due to stacking penalties. Any chance this will be looked into before the expansion or possibly in one of the first few patches after the expansion? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:35:00 -
[5199] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode. Perhaps a tad more CPU too? There are all of those spare high slots but we cant fit much in them 
and PG....
My Golem has almost maxed CPU and PG with two empty high slots that I can't even fit a salvager in.... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:40:00 -
[5200] - Quote
Taegessia wrote:Currently on TQ, max range with torpedos rage is 43.2 km with a CNR using :
1 x 5% hardwiring velocity or flight time, doesnt matter which 1 x T2 velocity Rig 1 x T2 flight time Rig 1 x T1 flight time or velocity Rig , doesnt matter which
As long as you don't use 2 x T2 Rigs of the same type (velociry or flight time) you won't get stack penaltized. All velocity\flight time relevant skills maxed.
In the same sense and with 1 less T1 Range rig slot, the respective TQ max range with torpedos rage for Golem is 38.2 km
** Im unable to test so would appreciate a little feedback on this. If the bastion 25% range bonus is stack penaltized then it becomes aproximately a 21.75% bonus, applying it to the TQ Golem makes its max range with rage torpedos 46.6 km. If its not stack penaltized then its 47.8 km. In either way, PvE wise, its not a bad increase at all, taking into account the huge dps increase with rage torps (in conjuction with tp duration changes).Only a few npc battleships try to orbit you above 45km (<= 51 km).I can imagine fom now getting in L4 rooms with javeling torps at start,clear the more distant targets and then when everything is below say 46-47km switch to bastion\rage and clear the rest.That might be enough to help finish the tougher L4 missions faster.
Ofcourse im not sure if the numbers above are accurate, can anyone confirm?
for golem, i think you get max range with 2x flight time T2 rigs. So bastion vel dont get stacked. also, you get better range with flight time rigs due acceleration having lesser affect on flight time than velocity |
|

Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
1027
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:40:00 -
[5201] - Quote
Having played about a little earlier on, I found that the Bastion module dropping your speed to 0 is basically a suicide-switch vs anyone that has even basic funding (read: can deploy a dreadnaught or two) as they're just getting blapped over and over on SISI when we're flying them into the testing area.
The tanking seemed pretty good, a dual-XLASB Golem tanked a hell of a lot... but still, it died in a hurry vs even a single dread. I suspect a single rail moros or nag could take out an entire fleet of bastion fit ships, with them having no hope of retaliating.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:43:00 -
[5202] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
and PG....
My Golem has almost maxed CPU and PG with two empty high slots that I can't even fit a salvager in....
I am managing to get away with the PG on the kronos.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:44:00 -
[5203] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Having played about a little earlier on, I found that the Bastion module dropping your speed to 0 is basically a suicide-switch vs anyone that has even basic funding (read: can deploy a dreadnaught or two) as they're just getting blapped over and over on SISI when we're flying them into the testing area.
The tanking seemed pretty good, a dual-XLASB Golem tanked a hell of a lot... but still, it died in a hurry vs even a single dread. I suspect a single rail moros or nag could take out an entire fleet of bastion fit ships, with them having no hope of retaliating.
People wont be dropping dreads often on Tranq. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:52:00 -
[5204] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Having played about a little earlier on, I found that the Bastion module dropping your speed to 0 is basically a suicide-switch vs anyone that has even basic funding (read: can deploy a dreadnaught or two) as they're just getting blapped over and over on SISI when we're flying them into the testing area.
The tanking seemed pretty good, a dual-XLASB Golem tanked a hell of a lot... but still, it died in a hurry vs even a single dread. I suspect a single rail moros or nag could take out an entire fleet of bastion fit ships, with them having no hope of retaliating.
People wont be dropping dreads often on Tranq.
Not to mention not many people are going to bring a billion isk ship into a large fight and/or a situation where capitals are possible.... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 16:53:00 -
[5205] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
and PG....
My Golem has almost maxed CPU and PG with two empty high slots that I can't even fit a salvager in....
I am managing to get away with the PG on the kronos.
yeah, however, missile/shield boats never have much PG cause they don't use much...
It's changed a bit for the Golem.. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:04:00 -
[5206] - Quote
I tested the cruise golem missile range with the following
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 199km Bastion : 231km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 203km Bastion: 249km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 199km Bastion 249km
The ratio should be the same for torpedos. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:11:00 -
[5207] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:I tested the cruise golem missile range with the following
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 199km Bastion : 231km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 203km Bastion: 249km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 199km Bastion 249km
The ratio should be the same for torpedos.
Try it...
it costs 100 isk for modules on test server |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:13:00 -
[5208] - Quote
i cant use t2 torps on test server that is why i only try cruise but i can try with torp meta 4 |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:15:00 -
[5209] - Quote
i guess i need to install a sisi client, :( i need more hd space. |

Taegessia
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:29:00 -
[5210] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:I tested the cruise golem missile range with the following
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 199km Bastion : 231km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 203km Bastion: 249km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 199km Bastion 249km
The ratio should be the same for torpedos.
Appreciate the feedback but this doesnt seem likely. 249km with bastion on means that the bonus from bastion is only 3%. Someone can achieve 239km max currently on TQ and if add the 5% range hardwiring, can reach as max as 249km. Some of your misiile range skils are not maxed out, there is no other explanation. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:34:00 -
[5211] - Quote
Taegessia wrote:
Appreciate the feedback but this doesnt seem likely. 249km with bastion on means that the bonus from bastion is only 3%. Someone can achieve 239km max currently on TQ and if add the 5% range hardwiring, can reach as max as 249km. Some of your misiile range skils are not maxed out, there is no other explanation.
You cant do anything past that point anyway so its not much of an issue. |

marVLs
446
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:34:00 -
[5212] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
1. What about that stacking penalized bonuses for range in Bastion? Can You change them to non-stacking? This is most important for Vargur (as little more PG). 2. Second thing is that range bonus (only one bonus) for missiles, can You buff it to 50% so torps will be viable? 3. What with that tractor bonus? Change it? Buff it?
Imo hulls need to be faster with better warp speed and have more slots or 3rd rig slot instead of 8th high slot.
And yeah bastion is good but not useful... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:36:00 -
[5213] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mer88 wrote:I tested the cruise golem missile range with the following
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 199km Bastion : 231km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 203km Bastion: 249km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 199km Bastion 249km
The ratio should be the same for torpedos. Try it... it costs 100 isk for modules on test server
for T1 torps, keep in mind my skills only average
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 36km Bastion : 42km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 37km Bastion: 45km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 36km Bastion 45km
i think with 2x flight time rigs, your actual range will be much closer to the listed. |

Taegessia
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:36:00 -
[5214] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You cant do anything past that point anyway so its not much of an issue.
I know that, i was just commenting in relation to the context in which the initial discussion was placed. The real issue is the range with torp rage not cruise.
|

MinutemanKirk
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 17:54:00 -
[5215] - Quote
I'm sure it's been stated before but I'm not wading through 250+ pages to find posts.
Make a second T2 BS (using the old "tier 3" hulls) for PvP and let Marauders be a purely PvE ship. Without a significant cap bonus in their current form, the bastion module will simply be a death sentence for anyone (even in small gangs) who use them. A curse with 3 med neuts will drain a single rep Kronos dry in 3 minutes with the Kronos running two heavy NOS' and a heavy cap booster with Navy 800's. Even a Paladin (with the cap bonus only gains an extra 30 seconds. This cap weakness WITH the sensor strength hole will mean that even a couple of T1 cruisers can find multiple holes in what is supposed to be an OP tank ship.
T2 ships are about specialization. Why are we trying to specialize a single ship to accomplish two ENTIRELY different objectives? We don't see recons being balanced to run incursions nor do we see black ops being considered for their mining potential. Could both those shiptype do those things? Sure. But that's not what they are being DESIGNED for. In just the same way, I can't think of putting over a bil into a small fleet ship that isn't "designed" purely for combat when other alternative are available (like pirate ships). There is nothing about either proposed design that I can't get from other ships except for a module that makes my ship look cool and gives me moderately more range and tanking ability.
This is, of course, speaking from a PvP point of view, however, trying to make one horse pull two carts at once will only end up in killing the horse. Shoot, even just pulling one cart can be too much at times... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:14:00 -
[5216] - Quote
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Make a second T2 BS (using the old "tier 3" hulls) for PvP and let Marauders be a purely PvE ship
CCP do not want a PvE only combat ship. Hence why this change is happening. |

MinutemanKirk
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:29:00 -
[5217] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:MinutemanKirk wrote:
Make a second T2 BS (using the old "tier 3" hulls) for PvP and let Marauders be a purely PvE ship
CCP do not want a PvE only combat ship. Hence why this change is happening.
Then I'd like to see when the changes to Cov Ops happen so I can lead a fleet of them in glorious combat. Oh wait...
I think what you meant is to say CCP doesn't want a purely PvMISISON ship. As far as CCP not wanting them, I'm assuming you are referring to this:
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE...
Because this is entirely contradictory... If they aren't meant for a very specific activity, then almost EVERY T2 ship that has been re balanced to date is outside of that statement making it irrelevant. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
124
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:37:00 -
[5218] - Quote
I'd like to revoice my plea to not make the combat module 'Bastion Module' dependent on the science skill 'High Energy Physics'. You have just started to untangle the skilltree so beautifully.
I realize there is historic precedent with Graviton Physics I for Warp Disrupt Probes that got expanded into levels IV and V for the HIC module. But, this requirement is mostly RP-based on the name of the skill; and was created in the weird skill requirement times. When modules were created that depend on T2 ship skills in a totally different progression (Triage module, I am looking at you) and the (back then titan-exclusive) Wormhole Generation required scan probing skills - again, solely based on the RP-fluff of the skill name.
I do not think that is a tradition that must, or even should be honored and upheld. High Energy Physics as a skill is for: - gaining HEP datacores - tech 2 invention of blueprints requiring HEP datacores - manufacturing advanced construction components - manufacturing capital advanced construction components
All of this is so far outside the skill progression path that should lead you to a Marauder; honestly, it is not even funny.
Marauders already require Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, so adding a new skill "Tactical Hull Reconfiguration" or "Tactical Defensive Reconfiguration" right along the existing "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" and "Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration" skills would be so incredibly easy and wonderfully consistent, I am at a loss for words at the prospect of this opportunity being squandered away.
[Edit] Clarification: the Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration is only listed for the sake of the naming consistency. Please do not go down the bonkers requirements road of it, putting the bastion skill on top of the Covert Ops skill. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:50:00 -
[5219] - Quote
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Then I'd like to see when the changes to Cov Ops happen so I can lead a fleet of them in glorious combat. Oh wait...
They have been used for probing down pvp targets in almost every fleet from the day they were added. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:54:00 -
[5220] - Quote
I'm still not a huge fan of the MJD bonus...
It's too niche in pve |
|

Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:54:00 -
[5221] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:I'd like to revoice my plea to not make the combat module 'Bastion Module' dependent on the science skill 'High Energy Physics'. You have just started to untangle the skilltree so beautifully.
I realize there is historic precedent with Graviton Physics I for Warp Disrupt Probes that got expanded into levels IV and V for the HIC module. But, this requirement is mostly RP-based on the name of the skill; and was created in the weird skill requirement times. When modules were created that depend on T2 ship skills in a totally different progression (Triage module, I am looking at you) and the (back then titan-exclusive) Wormhole Generation required scan probing skills - again, solely based on the RP-fluff of the skill name.
I do not think that is a tradition that must, or even should be honored and upheld. High Energy Physics as a skill is for: - gaining HEP datacores - tech 2 invention of blueprints requiring HEP datacores - manufacturing advanced construction components - manufacturing capital advanced construction components
All of this is so far outside the skill progression path that should lead you to a Marauder; honestly, it is not even funny.
Marauders already require Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, so adding a new skill "Tactical Hull Reconfiguration" or "Tactical Defensive Reconfiguration" right along the existing "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" and "Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration" skills would be so incredibly easy and wonderfully consistent, I am at a loss for words at the prospect of this opportunity being squandered away.
[Edit] Clarification: the Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration is only listed for the sake of the naming consistency. Please do not go down the bonkers requirements road of it, putting the bastion skill on top of the Covert Ops skill.
Science skills are useful for passive RP generation, and as such more datacores get dropped onto the market or used for invention
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 18:57:00 -
[5222] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I'm still not a huge fan of the MJD bonus...
It's too niche in pve
Works great in pvp, null, lowsec and WH. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
126
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:01:00 -
[5223] - Quote
Allandri wrote:Mioelnir wrote:I do not think that is a tradition that must, or even should be honored and upheld. High Energy Physics as a skill is for: - gaining HEP datacores - tech 2 invention of blueprints requiring HEP datacores - manufacturing advanced construction components - manufacturing capital advanced construction components
Science skills are useful for passive RP generation, and as such more datacores get dropped onto the market or used for invention I know. That is why I listed it in the post you quoted. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:09:00 -
[5224] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I'm still not a huge fan of the MJD bonus...
It's too niche in pve Works great in pvp, null, lowsec and WH.
It would be nice if they gave us an MJD and MWD bonus
You can fit both if you wanted to, but you'd lose a lot of fitting capability in doing so |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:10:00 -
[5225] - Quote
PS.... My shield booster continues to not shut off when I tell it to.
Thank god for the OMFG boosts in bastion or it would be a real problem |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:12:00 -
[5226] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
It would be nice if they gave us an MJD and MWD bonus
You can fit both if you wanted to, but you'd lose a lot of fitting capability in doing so
Not sold on the slowest battleships getting a MWD bonus. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:17:00 -
[5227] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
It would be nice if they gave us an MJD and MWD bonus
You can fit both if you wanted to, but you'd lose a lot of fitting capability in doing so
Not sold on the slowest battleships getting a MWD bonus.
Well, just the removal of cap penalty would be awesome
Oh, and the fact that they are so slow is what makes it a good option |

baltec1
Bat Country
8162
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:24:00 -
[5228] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Well, just the removal of cap penalty would be awesome
Oh, and the fact that they are so slow is what makes it a good option
My idea of ship warranting this kind of bonus is something like a pocket battleship. A ship that cannot move isn't the best of ships to get a bonus in mobility. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
772
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:37:00 -
[5229] - Quote
Taegessia wrote:Mer88 wrote:I tested the cruise golem missile range with the following
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 199km Bastion : 231km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 203km Bastion: 249km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 199km Bastion 249km
The ratio should be the same for torpedos. Appreciate the feedback but this doesnt seem likely. 249km with bastion on means that the bonus from bastion is only 3%. Someone can achieve 239km max currently on TQ and if add the 5% range hardwiring, can reach as max as 249km. Some of your missile range skils are not maxed out, there is no other explanation I'd question your math if you found an increase from 199 (or 203) to 249 to be only 3%. |

Mike Forsite
MISSI0N C0NTR0L D-O-G-M-A
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 19:42:00 -
[5230] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:After further testing the marauders, it seems to me, that the bastion thing work for two marauders ok, (Golem/Paladin) and for the others i have tested not so well. The Problem i see is that you can't give the same bonus for all weapon types on the marauders.
One benefits more, another not. You have to individually balance the bastion module for every ship. Or better tie not so much in this thing no one really wants. golem works the same as on tq but there is could atleast move here it just sits there - thats mega borring zzz - spamming f1 and f2 all time is lame i want the movement back ;] the only people i can see liking the new golem are afk missioners with bots that do all that borring stuff for them
Hmm...so my golem hits with Javelin torps at 70km (57km on tq). Got twice the tank, got a free med slot for another TP, hitting frigs at 8km orbit. k... i've only 1 tractor beam on this because of cpu.
Vargur is at 104km with 800er AC and Barrage ... Kronos 70km with t2 neutron blasters and null nearly 3k hp in 11 seconds with a navy repper... i've done a blockade (serpentis) with blaster fitting in about 30 minutes, no frigs comes closer as 30 km ... never got target damped.
i like this bastion mode and the reduced mjd cooldown.
i agree the golem hull looks weird and the transformation too, but i think that's not the final look. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 20:18:00 -
[5231] - Quote
Ok... ok... I'm playing with MJD in lvl 4 missions and I like it pretty well...
It can stay |

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 20:18:00 -
[5232] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:PS.... My shield booster continues to not shut off when I tell it to.
Thank god for the OMFG boosts in bastion or it would be a real problem
I have mine set for Auto-repeat off, since cap is more precious of a commodity, and if I'm a few seconds late on the boost it doesn't seem to make a difference... I did accidentally turn bastion off though and that was a problem. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 20:20:00 -
[5233] - Quote
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:PS.... My shield booster continues to not shut off when I tell it to.
Thank god for the OMFG boosts in bastion or it would be a real problem I have mine set for Auto-repeat off, since cap is more precious of a commodity, and if I'm a few seconds late on the boost it doesn't seem to make a difference... I did accidentally turn bastion off though and that was a problem.
I just had a problem with bastion not responding to a mouse click, leading to another bastion cycle...
At least one minute isn't really that long to wait for that issue... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 20:35:00 -
[5234] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Taegessia wrote:Mer88 wrote:I tested the cruise golem missile range with the following
2 x t2 velocity rig base : 199km Bastion : 231km
1x t2 velocity 1x t2 flight time rig base: 203km Bastion: 249km
2x t2 fuel rigs Base: 199km Bastion 249km
The ratio should be the same for torpedos. Appreciate the feedback but this doesnt seem likely. 249km with bastion on means that the bonus from bastion is only 3%. Someone can achieve 239km max currently on TQ and if add the 5% range hardwiring, can reach as max as 249km. Some of your missile range skils are not maxed out, there is no other explanation I'd question your math if you found an increase from 199 (or 203) to 249 to be only 3%.
yeah bastion increase range from about 199(or 203) to 249 which is 25% for 199 and a little less for 203 due to stacking penalty. the result is the same for torps, same percent increase. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 20:50:00 -
[5235] - Quote
Speaking in terms of the Golem. In regards to pve in high sec.
For torps, the range bonus in addition to the amplified tanking, is a step in the right direction. However, the bastion module, helps to make them better, though they are still either requiring improvement for range in particular through tuning of torps in general or through hull bonuses for a ship like this to use them. Rolling the range bonuses for CM and Torps into 1 with the current Torp vs CM differences means that either CM are going beyond what is necessary to allow torps better reach, or torps do not go far enough to keep CM from being ridiculous.
Bastion module for a golem using CM, is relatively insignificant, potentially insignificant and more likely to be detrimental, in the aspect of every single time you turn it on, you're going to ask:
"Do I really want to be stuck here for the next minute"
Even while using torps, this will be often considered.
While in pvp, the decision and tactical juggling that is being implemented on Marauders isn't bad, I won't necessarily get into its merits, other than in pvp, something like that does actually work. However, in pve these same tactics do not apply as well, yes they of course can, but that does not mean they actually do, nor work well.
For the Golem, what we are left with when using a bastion module:
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% If you can tank it in an RNI, you could tank it in TQ golem, and you'll still be tanking fine without bastion after Rubicon.
Boosts all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30% Same as above, but again if you can tank it in an RNI, you could tank it in TQ golem, and you'll still be tanking fine without bastion after Rubicon.
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% In PVE this does nothing for CM other than remove any situation you'd have to missile count. Which only now occurs at around +80-90km when properly skilled/implanted. For torps, this helps, but again doesn't remove the problem of their shortcoming.
Has a cycle time of 60 seconds. Welcome to locking yourself into a decision for the next minute, hope you had enough ships left that needed this being left on, turned on or not being cycled off.
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way For guristas, this is great, in high-sec missions, its meaningless. You should already know which ships use EW and be killing them first already, that tactic shouldn't change.
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s and cannot warp (mass is unchanged). Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time doesn't require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec If it also includes acceleration gates (assumed), then again, see what is said about the 60 second cycle time.
In total, Torp users see the only modest benefits, the trouble is that these benefits contradict eachother. On the one hand, when you get into the middle of all the targets, and deploy you're getting that bonus tank, on the other hand the range bonus would make you think you'd want to not have to drive into the center before you could use the weapon system.
Now some may want to argue that this creates a more unique play experience of deciding if you want to deploy or not, frankly, in the case of the golem. No. The RNI gets the job done just fine right now, and arguably better. What does the Maruadar bring that the CNR doesn't? The same exact thing it had before, tractors and a lower ammunition expense, neither of which really set this ship aside as being T2.
In short, bastion sounds nifty, but for pve applications, most people who think its good are grasping at anything possible to make it sound like its going to be game altering in a good way (or even useful). I think in pvp it starts to capture the risk/reward, and weighing of decisions about how you're going to act on grid. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:17:00 -
[5236] - Quote
"f you can tank it in an RNI, you could tank it in TQ golem"
right now in test server i have T2 x-large shield booster and 2 adaptive invurability fields. that is all the tank mods i got and i have no problem doing the missions.
My TQ golem has 4 slot tank all deadspace. The bastion allow me to have less tank slots for other things.
Also, the velocity increase for cruise missiles means it will avoid more defender missiles so there is a benefit to turn on the bastion even if range is never an issue.
|

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
271
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:18:00 -
[5237] - Quote
I haven't been able to get onto Sisi yet, so, as regards my already excellently performing golem for nul-sec ratting on TQ, I am just wondering if anyone has figured out:
- Why do these ship need to be changed?
- Why do we need these ship to now be able to pvp (snigger!)?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using the bastion module in cyno-happy-zone nul-sec?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using a pvp fit maurder, bastion moudule fitted or not, in nul-sec?
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
699
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:39:00 -
[5238] - Quote
Outz Xacto wrote:Biggol' Wall of Unhappy Text
My word, that was a lot of theorycrafting and postulating. I get the very very strong feeling that you haven't actually logged onto SiSi to properly do a hands-on evaluation of the new Golem or of Bastion Mode itself.
Stop posting and do it.
While you're testing them for yourself, you may want to stop and consider how having a massively increased tank frees up slots to do other useful things, like allow for painters or prop mods or all sorts of things. |

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:01:00 -
[5239] - Quote
My connection is not the most stable in the world. What happens when i'm on bastion and i get a dc, does the ship stay there? |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:02:00 -
[5240] - Quote
Still, for all those testing the Golem, I think a combination of the 2 iterations will benefit it alot.
Remove 7.5% shield boost bonus, keep the Bastion mode 100% bonus. Bring back the T2 battleship resistances, get rid of the 30% bastion mode resist bonus, maybe add a 5% per skill level damage bonus to the Bastion module. Add a 5% per level damage application modifier in place of the shield bonus.
Golem is the ONLY marauder with no damage application bonus.
With these small tweaks, someone can use either a MWD or a MJD setup. Use the buffered resistances to get into location, lock down and tank back up while bringing Hell onto the battlefield, while still not being completely overpowered.
And maybe use Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for the Bastion module too, since it IS a dreadnought mode, (or make a new skill similar, to apply the incremental damage bonus mentioned above.)
As someone else mentioned earlier, the progression of the Golem is going sideways, while the other 3 marauders are actually going forward. |
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
772
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:11:00 -
[5241] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Still, for all those testing the Golem, I think a combination of the 2 iterations will benefit it alot.
Remove 7.5% shield boost bonus, keep the Bastion mode 100% bonus. Bring back the T2 battleship resistances, get rid of the 30% bastion mode resist bonus, maybe add a 5% per skill level damage bonus to the Bastion module. Add a 5% per level damage application modifier in place of the shield bonus.
Golem is the ONLY marauder with no damage application bonus.
With these small tweaks, someone can use either a MWD or a MJD setup. Use the buffered resistances to get into location, lock down and tank back up while bringing Hell onto the battlefield, while still not being completely overpowered.
And maybe use Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for the Bastion module too, since it IS a dreadnought mode, (or make a new skill similar, to apply the incremental damage bonus mentioned above.)
As someone else mentioned earlier, the progression of the Golem is going sideways, while the other 3 marauders are actually going forward. The TP bonus is the damage application bonus, though granted it's the only one tied to a mod rather than directly to the weapon. Other than that it's already been stated that higher DPS wasn't the way these ships are going to go. Also I'm still not in favor of T2 resist which selectively increase tank slightly (in some cases against the wrong damage types for PvE) in place of an all around active tank bonus to all damage types, especially since 2 can change damage types becoming more flexible against different NPC's. Bastion isn't the answer to the tank question for those of us who want the ships to remain usable outside of bastion as well. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1349
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:27:00 -
[5242] - Quote
the more i play around with the moros the more i seem to like it. honestly as long as you are not going to be hot droped by dreads you are pretty safe... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:29:00 -
[5243] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Still, for all those testing the Golem, I think a combination of the 2 iterations will benefit it alot.
Remove 7.5% shield boost bonus, keep the Bastion mode 100% bonus. Bring back the T2 battleship resistances, get rid of the 30% bastion mode resist bonus, maybe add a 5% per skill level damage bonus to the Bastion module. Add a 5% per level damage application modifier in place of the shield bonus.
Golem is the ONLY marauder with no damage application bonus.
With these small tweaks, someone can use either a MWD or a MJD setup. Use the buffered resistances to get into location, lock down and tank back up while bringing Hell onto the battlefield, while still not being completely overpowered.
And maybe use Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for the Bastion module too, since it IS a dreadnought mode, (or make a new skill similar, to apply the incremental damage bonus mentioned above.)
As someone else mentioned earlier, the progression of the Golem is going sideways, while the other 3 marauders are actually going forward. The TP bonus is the damage application bonus, though granted it's the only one tied to a mod rather than directly to the weapon. Other than that it's already been stated that higher DPS wasn't the way these ships are going to go. Also I'm still not in favor of T2 resist which selectively increase tank slightly (in some cases against the wrong damage types for PvE) in place of an all around active tank bonus to all damage types, especially since 2 can change damage types becoming more flexible against different NPC's. Bastion isn't the answer to the tank question for those of us who want the ships to remain usable outside of bastion as well. Valid statement but...
Thisis why T2 resists will be a better option because it'll benefit both in and out of Bastion. As is, the Golem gets a 0% EM resist regardless of T1 or T2 ship resists, you'll have that hole no matter what.
Painters are okay, but the ship already has an explosion velocity bonus, which still don't do jack for T2 Rage torpedoes, but you can whack frigates with CN torpedoes pretty easily with a single paint. Because paints will have a 5s delay instead of 10, and my 5s ROF, I'll only need 1 paint, and one of your rigs should be a T2 Rigor rig anyway.
Gank is tank, so replacing the 7.5% per level boost bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus would significantly increase the DPS of the Golem, and its overall damage application especially with faction missiles and launchers. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:47:00 -
[5244] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Still, for all those testing the Golem, I think a combination of the 2 iterations will benefit it alot.
Remove 7.5% shield boost bonus, keep the Bastion mode 100% bonus. Bring back the T2 battleship resistances, get rid of the 30% bastion mode resist bonus, maybe add a 5% per skill level damage bonus to the Bastion module. Add a 5% per level damage application modifier in place of the shield bonus.
Golem is the ONLY marauder with no damage application bonus.
With these small tweaks, someone can use either a MWD or a MJD setup. Use the buffered resistances to get into location, lock down and tank back up while bringing Hell onto the battlefield, while still not being completely overpowered.
And maybe use Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for the Bastion module too, since it IS a dreadnought mode, (or make a new skill similar, to apply the incremental damage bonus mentioned above.)
As someone else mentioned earlier, the progression of the Golem is going sideways, while the other 3 marauders are actually going forward. The TP bonus is the damage application bonus, though granted it's the only one tied to a mod rather than directly to the weapon. Other than that it's already been stated that higher DPS wasn't the way these ships are going to go. Also I'm still not in favor of T2 resist which selectively increase tank slightly (in some cases against the wrong damage types for PvE) in place of an all around active tank bonus to all damage types, especially since 2 can change damage types becoming more flexible against different NPC's. Bastion isn't the answer to the tank question for those of us who want the ships to remain usable outside of bastion as well. Valid statement but... Thisis why T2 resists will be a better option because it'll benefit both in and out of Bastion. As is, the Golem gets a 0% EM resist regardless of T1 or T2 ship resists, you'll have that hole no matter what. Painters are okay, but the ship already has an explosion velocity bonus, which still don't do jack for T2 Rage torpedoes, but you can whack frigates with CN torpedoes pretty easily with a single paint. Because paints will have a 5s delay instead of 10, and my 5s ROF, I'll only need 1 paint, and one of your rigs should be a T2 Rigor rig anyway. Gank is tank, so replacing the 7.5% per level boost bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus would significantly increase the DPS of the Golem, and its overall damage application especially with faction missiles and launchers.
how do you get 5s rof on torps? i think mine is like 7.3s a volley im almost maxed skills for dps
|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
772
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:52:00 -
[5245] - Quote
NiteNinja wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:NiteNinja wrote:Still, for all those testing the Golem, I think a combination of the 2 iterations will benefit it alot.
Remove 7.5% shield boost bonus, keep the Bastion mode 100% bonus. Bring back the T2 battleship resistances, get rid of the 30% bastion mode resist bonus, maybe add a 5% per skill level damage bonus to the Bastion module. Add a 5% per level damage application modifier in place of the shield bonus.
Golem is the ONLY marauder with no damage application bonus.
With these small tweaks, someone can use either a MWD or a MJD setup. Use the buffered resistances to get into location, lock down and tank back up while bringing Hell onto the battlefield, while still not being completely overpowered.
And maybe use Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for the Bastion module too, since it IS a dreadnought mode, (or make a new skill similar, to apply the incremental damage bonus mentioned above.)
As someone else mentioned earlier, the progression of the Golem is going sideways, while the other 3 marauders are actually going forward. The TP bonus is the damage application bonus, though granted it's the only one tied to a mod rather than directly to the weapon. Other than that it's already been stated that higher DPS wasn't the way these ships are going to go. Also I'm still not in favor of T2 resist which selectively increase tank slightly (in some cases against the wrong damage types for PvE) in place of an all around active tank bonus to all damage types, especially since 2 can change damage types becoming more flexible against different NPC's. Bastion isn't the answer to the tank question for those of us who want the ships to remain usable outside of bastion as well. Valid statement but... Thisis why T2 resists will be a better option because it'll benefit both in and out of Bastion. As is, the Golem gets a 0% EM resist regardless of T1 or T2 ship resists, you'll have that hole no matter what. Painters are okay, but the ship already has an explosion velocity bonus, which still don't do jack for T2 Rage torpedoes, but you can whack frigates with CN torpedoes pretty easily with a single paint. Because paints will have a 5s delay instead of 10, and my 5s ROF, I'll only need 1 paint, and one of your rigs should be a T2 Rigor rig anyway. Gank is tank, so replacing the 7.5% per level boost bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus would significantly increase the DPS of the Golem, and its overall damage application especially with faction missiles and launchers. The Golems EM hole does NOT support your point. With T2 resists the Golem has a 0% boost to EM tank. With the rep bonus it has a 37.5% bonus to tanking EM damage.
Painters are for explosion radius, which the Golem gets no bonus to. And unless I'm mistaken they are in no way diminished in effect by the explosion velocity bonus, which means it actually has 2 application bonuses vs the 0 you claimed, since the target velocity and sig radius are factored independently.
And as stated, they don't want these going the way of more DPS, if you think you can convince CCP of it after 5000+ posts on the subject littered with people asking for it, by all means keep going. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 23:01:00 -
[5246] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:"f you can tank it in an RNI, you could tank it in TQ golem"
right now in test server i have T2 x-large shield booster and 2 adaptive invurability fields. that is all the tank mods i got and i have no problem doing the missions.
My TQ golem has 4 slot tank all deadspace. The bastion allow me to have less tank slots for other things.
This sounds alot more like a fitting issue, module for module vs the RNI the Golem performs better. Hull changes for cap amount/regen are going to push the Golem further ahead. So my statement is 100% spot on. Now I do understand though you're implying that the bastion module frees up a slot, allowing you to still tank that same as you do now, and I'd agree that any mission pocket that someone would feel the need for 4 tank setup, that running the bastion module is going to allow for not needing to 4 slot tank, and you'd likely be in the room for more than 1 minute anyway, so the bastion module gets usage for that. I'd also argue that not trying to economy fit, using the right hardeners, taking out the right targets etc, also removes the necessity for said slot usage.
Mer88 wrote:Also, the velocity increase for cruise missiles means it will avoid more defender missiles so there is a benefit to turn on the bastion even if range is never an issue.
I'm highly suspect without you showing some concrete evidence that indicates missiles A. currently can't do this, and B. the bastion'ed velocity allows this to be achieved in all/most situations. I do recall something that indicated current achievable velocities doing this in a number of cases/ranges. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 23:45:00 -
[5247] - Quote
"I'm highly suspect without you showing some concrete evidence that indicates missiles A. currently can't do this, and B. the bastion'ed velocity allows this to be achieved in all/most situations. I do recall something that indicated current achievable velocities doing this in a number of cases/ranges."
I think you can do this on TQ with 2x t2 missile speed if you have max missile speed skills to avoid the defenders. with Bastion module on you only need a T1 missile speed rig which give you 300 calibration left for 2t dps rig it should still give you a 25 + 15 speed increase. so in conclusion you can free up a rigg slot and still avoid defender missiles if you use the bastion module for cruise missiles. at least this is how i hope it will be |

Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 00:01:00 -
[5248] - Quote
from my testing I gathered that the range bonus feels very weak and should be increased there has never been a time where I though "oh I should go bastion here cause it makes me able to hit him" not moving is just too much of a penalty for the few km more range you get
rather then having 8 high slots and no space to fit anything in I'd rather have 7 highs and one more mid on all of them to make space for the pretty much mandatory mjd on such an expensive ship that has such a powerful bonus for it its much easier to find a space filling module for a midslot then a highslot the autotargeter just doesn't cut it Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
|

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 00:02:00 -
[5249] - Quote
Mer88 wrote: "I'm highly suspect without you showing some concrete evidence that indicates missiles A. currently can't do this, and B. the bastion'ed velocity allows this to be achieved in all/most situations. I do recall something that indicated current achievable velocities doing this in a number of cases/ranges."
I think you can do this on TQ with 2x t2 missile speed if you have max missile speed skills to avoid the defenders. with Bastion module on you only need a T1 missile speed rig which give you 300 calibration left for 2t dps rig it should still give you a 25 + 15 speed increase. so in conclusion you can free up a rigg slot and still avoid defender missiles if you use the bastion module for cruise missiles. at least this is how i hope it will be
Of course I havn't been able to find where I read the discussion on defender avoidance (I know really helps my argument eh!?), but thought that at or around 11km/s that defenders started to fail, and that it was said to be more at further ranges (assuming due to acceleration).
With your proposed rigging setup, damage application becomes an issue I'd think, especially in comparison to the RNI. Going to also hit some diminishing returns, iirc with your rig setup too for missile velocity, as others have pointed out with what riggings to use for maximizing torp distance. For CM that rig setup gives up 40% missile ER reduction... |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 00:09:00 -
[5250] - Quote
I finished flying all of them a couple of hours for L4 on sissi.
Overall, with exception of the Paladin(because the optimal bonus is super powerful on laser hulls) all are a lot slower with the L4 times.
Kronos is by far the worst, dps with rails is laughable without the sentry's, it can't cover close range with the web any more(meaning that you don't to any kind of respectable dps at close range with rails) and the stop and go game play feels just bad with blasters(a vindi does the same thing miles better). Overall it was the worst marauder and now it is worse than the Hype, Domi and Vindicator, depending on what you want(blasters\rails).
Golem is much worse as mwd + torp ship, it is currently to slow and with the changes it is a useless brick. Bastion and MJD add zero to the performance(2 slot tanked atm without it) because you need a lot of time to move into range that you will not use Bastion at all most of the time(because it takes ages to get in range in the first place). For CMs you don't need the extra tank if you use mjd, you don't need a mjd if you use the extra tank(you can already tank it fine as it is with 2-3 slots currently).
Vargur just feels bad with the stop and go game play(similar as the blaster Kronos) you want to move the hull(what is 320m/s slower as the hull is currently and nearly 600m/s slower than my mach). As a AC platform it needs to move, the mjd is fairly pointless with ACs and it just suffers from low mwd speed. For artilleries it would need another optimal bonus and sentry's, because similar to the Kronos, raw gun dps is just to low.
Paladin is fairly op with the changes(as expected) since I had 73.5+50km optimal with multis(T2 Tachs) and got a amazing damage projection, plus you don't need to move at all in most missions in amarr space. The lack of sentry dps however really hurts in a lot of close range missions.
Overall the changes make them worse at L4 pve(with exception of the paladin), because you don't need the massive tank anyway, they lose a lot of dps, speed and damage application bonuses and mjd is fairly pointless on it's own and a wast of slots if you fit multiple prop mods(mwd is the prop mod of choice on all my marauders anyway). For other stuff like Incursions, the changes are even worse, since a web bonus, speed and dps are far more handy once you don't active tank at all. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 00:57:00 -
[5251] - Quote
BTW, has anyone tested the interaction between the MJD and bastion? I assume you can't microjump with bastion active, but can you start spinning up the MJD and have the jump work if you're out of bastion after the delay? Since ewar immunity includes immunity to scrams, if you could time the jump to line up with when bastion expires you could escape any tackle. |

Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 01:06:00 -
[5252] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:BTW, has anyone tested the interaction between the MJD and bastion? I assume you can't microjump with bastion active, but can you start spinning up the MJD and have the jump work if you're out of bastion after the delay? Since ewar immunity includes immunity to scrams, if you could time the jump to line up with when bastion expires you could escape any tackle.
No, you can't even begin to activate your MJD while bastion is active. |

Corvald Tyrska
Dha'Vargar
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 01:15:00 -
[5253] - Quote
I have no idea what content is available on Sisi to test with but has anyone on there run high level DED complexes, lvl 5 missions and Incursions with the new Marauders? How about sleepers sites?
All I have seen so far is comparisons with lvl 4 mission running and considering how simple that is in tech 1 battleships, running lvl 4s in Marauders makes about as much sense as running the combat tutorial missions in an Assault Frigate.
How do the new Marauders stack up in the difficult PVE content? |

Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 01:26:00 -
[5254] - Quote
Corvald Tyrska wrote:I have no idea what content is available on Sisi to test with but has anyone on there run high level DED complexes, lvl 5 missions and Incursions with the new Marauders? How about sleepers sites?
All I have seen so far is comparisons with lvl 4 mission running and considering how simple that is in tech 1 battleships, running lvl 4s in Marauders makes about as much sense as running the combat tutorial missions in an Assault Frigate.
How do the new Marauders stack up in the difficult PVE content?
u can make l4 easy tankable or fast doable, the new marauders i never flown the old, makes both highly doable.
also i would be interested to see how it does in pvp and higher plexxes or incursions |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
565
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 01:27:00 -
[5255] - Quote
Corvald Tyrska wrote:I have no idea what content is available on Sisi to test with but has anyone on there run high level DED complexes, lvl 5 missions and Incursions with the new Marauders? How about sleepers sites?
All I have seen so far is comparisons with lvl 4 mission running and considering how simple that is in tech 1 battleships, running lvl 4s in Marauders makes about as much sense as running the combat tutorial missions in an Assault Frigate.
How do the new Marauders stack up in the difficult PVE content?
Currently on live, marauders have more issues than you would think with tanking.
As they sit on test server, I have been tanking full room aggro with bastion, xl pith-x, and 2 Invulns. That should be quite capable of higher end pve without much issue. I haven't even had to use a cap booster yet.
Also, if you use MJD and cruise missiles, then you can kill most crap before it even reaches you... |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 02:47:00 -
[5256] - Quote
I haven't had time to get my sisi client set up due to work. Has anyone been able to test the new RHML on the Golem? With the TP bonus you can pretty much apply full damage (sig not speed) to cruisers and above with furies. That would open up at least 1 mid slot for tank or utility. A load of precision could be devastating to frigs. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
565
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 02:55:00 -
[5257] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:I haven't had time to get my sisi client set up due to work. Has anyone been able to test the new RHML on the Golem? With the TP bonus you can pretty much apply full damage (sig not speed) to cruisers and above with furies. That would open up at least 1 mid slot for tank or utility. A load of precision could be devastating to frigs.
I have not tested, but I would imagine the damage is lackluster
|

Taegessia
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 03:12:00 -
[5258] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'd question your math if you found an increase from 199 (or 203) to 249 to be only 3%.
Mer88 wrote:yeah bastion increase range from about 199(or 203) to 249 which is 25% for 199 and a little less for 203 due to stacking penalty.the result is the same for torps, same percent increase.
I initially thought that Mer88 had maxed skills when he\she posted those numbers.So my base number was as high as Golem can currently go in cruise range, without using a hardwiring (~240km). I derived that 3% based on that number. The calculations where made on top of my head thats why i was slightly off by 1%. Admittedly i shouldn't be that specific or hasty, but the math are correct within the context i thought they were.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8173
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:01:00 -
[5259] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:I haven't been able to get onto Sisi yet, so, as regards my already excellently performing golem for nul-sec ratting on TQ, I am just wondering if anyone has figured out:
- Why do these ship need to be changed?
- Why do we need these ship to now be able to pvp (snigger!)?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using the bastion module in cyno-happy-zone nul-sec?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using a pvp fit maurder, bastion moudule fitted or not, in nul-sec?
1. They need changed because they are near useless in pvp and many areas with rats that jam. 2. They are the only combat ships that cannot do pvp. 3. Bait, station camping, gate camping, small gang roams, sig fleet roams, system defense, sniping, null anoms. 4. Small gang roams, sig fleet roams, bait, station camping, gate camping, defense fleets, sniping. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
566
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:08:00 -
[5260] - Quote
So, managed to get my golem into Recon. That has always been a crappy mission due to ranges and at points high incoming dps.
Tank basically a non-factor... Tanks like a champ
Travel part 2 - MJD to warp gate and land within range to trigger. Part 3 - MJD out, wait, MJD to gate.. Done basically 2 minutes give or take to complete |
|

Totured Veracity
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:12:00 -
[5261] - Quote
Please do not remove target painter bonus for golem. In terms of damage dealing, for cruise missile platforms this bonus is even more important than rof/damage itself bonuses. |

Dank Man
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:39:00 -
[5262] - Quote
Isnt the golem worse damage then the CNR... I would think it could do with a boost in dmg not a 2nd ewar boost to take up its mids, when it need shield tank and a MJD already ffs... |

Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:47:00 -
[5263] - Quote
Dear CCP,
I would like to point out to some issue I found testing different setups on SiSi last night. Issue is ASB tank on Vargur and Golem. So I had a very plain fit on my golem: MJD, 2x XL ASB, 2x Invuls, Shield boost amplifier and TP, damage control, 2x bcus, co processor, t1 resist rigs and rapid heavy launchers. I was sitting on one of the combat beacons with bastion mode turned on when 2x Paladins, Bhaalgorn and sleipnir engaged me. Despite having 0 cap thanks to Bhaalgorn I had no issues tanking them. After 10 minute fight I realized that my ship would run out of missiles faster then it would run out of Cap booster 400 for reloading ASBs. in 10 minute fight I only realoaded ONE of my ASBs ONCE. I find this odd. I understand that this is not issue of ship but broken ASB mechanics you have implemented and refuse to fix. While armor ships are still vulnerable to neuts and u cannot do anything about ASB fit battleships unless you don't poses a huge alpha to simply break through it's rep cycles. I've to admit that rep amount on shield ships is stupidly high, full shield in 1 cycle? In other threads I already pointed out on issue of fitting oversized reps to shield tanked ships (X-L on cruiser and BC) while armor is still limited to only 1 AAR. ASB tank is much stronger on shield ships rather then on armor. For example you have to invest around 5-6 bil ISK into fit for Kronos to get almost half of ASB Vargur/Golem's tank. Why cannot you limit size of booster for individual class and limit number of ASBs fitted on ships? Shield looks a bit OP compared to armor tank just because of Shield boost amps, Active invuls that you can overheat and of course Crystal set implants. I would appreciate to actually get an answer on my question at least once, or should I simply do a mass petition so you can pay attention to this issue? Thanks ahead. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:54:00 -
[5264] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP,
I would like to point out to some issue I found testing different setups on SiSi last night. Issue is ASB tank on Vargur and Golem. So I had a very plain fit on my golem: MJD, 2x XL ASB, 2x Invuls, Shield boost amplifier and TP, damage control, 2x bcus, co processor, t1 resist rigs and rapid heavy launchers. I was sitting on one of the combat beacons with bastion mode turned on when 2x Paladins, Bhaalgorn and sleipnir engaged me. Despite having 0 cap thanks to Bhaalgorn I had no issues tanking them. After 10 minute fight I realized that my ship would run out of missiles faster then it would run out of Cap booster 400 for reloading ASBs. in 10 minute fight I only realoaded ONE of my ASBs ONCE. I find this odd. I understand that this is not issue of ship but broken ASB mechanics you have implemented and refuse to fix. While armor ships are still vulnerable to neuts and u cannot do anything about ASB fit battleships unless you don't poses a huge alpha to simply break through it's rep cycles. I've to admit that rep amount on shield ships is stupidly high, full shield in 1 cycle? In other threads I already pointed out on issue of fitting oversized reps to shield tanked ships (X-L on cruiser and BC) while armor is still limited to only 1 AAR. ASB tank is much stronger on shield ships rather then on armor. For example you have to invest around 5-6 bil ISK into fit for Kronos to get almost half of ASB Vargur/Golem's tank. Why cannot you limit size of booster for individual class and limit number of ASBs fitted on ships? Shield looks a bit OP compared to armor tank just because of Shield boost amps, Active invuls that you can overheat and of course Crystal set implants. I would appreciate to actually get an answer on my question at least once, or should I simply do a mass petition so you can pay attention to this issue? Thanks ahead.
with bastion , i think its even possible to use shield fit on kronos or paladin and as bonus they get way better cap then golem. |

Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:58:00 -
[5265] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:[quote=Cyaron wars]Dear CCP, with bastion , i think its even possible to use shield fit on kronos or paladin and as bonus they get way better cap then golem.
shame those ships won't be able to shoot anything with 0 cap while golem and vargur can. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 08:35:00 -
[5266] - Quote
don't know if this was posted here already, so if it was sry for doubleposting:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
|

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 08:45:00 -
[5267] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP,
I would like to point out to some issue I found testing different setups on SiSi last night. Issue is ASB tank on Vargur and Golem. So I had a very plain fit on my golem: MJD, 2x XL ASB, 2x Invuls, Shield boost amplifier and TP, damage control, 2x bcus, co processor, t1 resist rigs and rapid heavy launchers. I was sitting on one of the combat beacons with bastion mode turned on when 2x Paladins, Bhaalgorn and sleipnir engaged me. Despite having 0 cap thanks to Bhaalgorn I had no issues tanking them. After 10 minute fight I realized that my ship would run out of missiles faster then it would run out of Cap booster 400 for reloading ASBs. in 10 minute fight I only realoaded ONE of my ASBs ONCE. I find this odd. I understand that this is not issue of ship but broken ASB mechanics you have implemented and refuse to fix. While armor ships are still vulnerable to neuts and u cannot do anything about ASB fit battleships unless you don't poses a huge alpha to simply break through it's rep cycles. I've to admit that rep amount on shield ships is stupidly high, full shield in 1 cycle? In other threads I already pointed out on issue of fitting oversized reps to shield tanked ships (X-L on cruiser and BC) while armor is still limited to only 1 AAR. ASB tank is much stronger on shield ships rather then on armor. For example you have to invest around 5-6 bil ISK into fit for Kronos to get almost half of ASB Vargur/Golem's tank. Why cannot you limit size of booster for individual class and limit number of ASBs fitted on ships? Shield looks a bit OP compared to armor tank just because of Shield boost amps, Active invuls that you can overheat and of course Crystal set implants. I would appreciate to actually get an answer on my question at least once, or should I simply do a mass petition so you can pay attention to this issue? Thanks ahead.
The difference between active armor tank and active shield tank is too big and its sad that no one is doing with that anything.
The only way how to have similar repair amount as shield is to fit 2 repairers and then because its still not enough you must fit also rigs to increase repair amount. I really dont think that its correct. (this is for example comparison between tengu and legion and legion fit will be even more expensive, but its not only these 2 ships)
Other thing is that you have less effective HP just due to the fact that you can count with shields at all...
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 09:52:00 -
[5268] - Quote
Isinero wrote:Cyaron wars wrote:Dear CCP,
I would like to point out to some issue I found testing different setups on SiSi last night. Issue is ASB tank on Vargur and Golem. So I had a very plain fit on my golem: MJD, 2x XL ASB, 2x Invuls, Shield boost amplifier and TP, damage control, 2x bcus, co processor, t1 resist rigs and rapid heavy launchers. I was sitting on one of the combat beacons with bastion mode turned on when 2x Paladins, Bhaalgorn and sleipnir engaged me. Despite having 0 cap thanks to Bhaalgorn I had no issues tanking them. After 10 minute fight I realized that my ship would run out of missiles faster then it would run out of Cap booster 400 for reloading ASBs. in 10 minute fight I only realoaded ONE of my ASBs ONCE. I find this odd. I understand that this is not issue of ship but broken ASB mechanics you have implemented and refuse to fix. While armor ships are still vulnerable to neuts and u cannot do anything about ASB fit battleships unless you don't poses a huge alpha to simply break through it's rep cycles. I've to admit that rep amount on shield ships is stupidly high, full shield in 1 cycle? In other threads I already pointed out on issue of fitting oversized reps to shield tanked ships (X-L on cruiser and BC) while armor is still limited to only 1 AAR. ASB tank is much stronger on shield ships rather then on armor. For example you have to invest around 5-6 bil ISK into fit for Kronos to get almost half of ASB Vargur/Golem's tank. Why cannot you limit size of booster for individual class and limit number of ASBs fitted on ships? Shield looks a bit OP compared to armor tank just because of Shield boost amps, Active invuls that you can overheat and of course Crystal set implants. I would appreciate to actually get an answer on my question at least once, or should I simply do a mass petition so you can pay attention to this issue? Thanks ahead. The difference between active armor tank and active shield tank is too big and its sad that no one is doing with that anything. The only way how to have similar repair amount as shield is to fit 2 repairers and then because its still not enough you must fit also rigs to increase repair amount. I really dont think that its correct. (this is for example comparison between tengu and legion and legion fit will be even more expensive, but its not only these 2 ships) Other thing is that you have less effective HP just due to the fact that you can count with shields at all...
Armour was designed so that it excels at buffer tanking which is why the 1600 t2 plate is more than 2.5x the hp of the large shields and why the implants give you a 50% increase in HP instead of tank. The advantage of armour is that you should fairly easily be able to get twice the EHP of a shield ship, which helps a lot if you have logi. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 10:59:00 -
[5269] - Quote
Isinero wrote:The difference between active armor tank and active shield tank is too big and its sad that no one is doing with that anything.
The only way how to have similar repair amount as shield is to fit 2 repairers and then because its still not enough you must fit also rigs to increase repair amount. I really dont think that its correct. (this is for example comparison between tengu and legion and legion fit will be even more expensive, but its not only these 2 ships)
Other thing is that you have less effective HP just due to the fact that you can count with shields at all...
Shield vs. armor is extremely well balanced except for the Gist line of boosters. I've posted this at least 8 times but people still don't get it. Shield boosters (except for the Gist line) use huge amounts of capacitor. Two armor reppers have almost identical rep/second and rep/cap amounts as a shield booster and a SBA of the same meta level, again with the exception of Gist boosters. Shield has the advantage of frontloaded repairing and invuln fields being higher strength than EANMs. Armor has the advantages of far superior rig options, less cap use (invuln IIs use a ton of cap on a cruiser) and far superior overloading performance.
Gist boosters just need to be nerfed into the ground, period. There's a reason a Gist XLSB costs over 1 billion. |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
272
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 11:02:00 -
[5270] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:I haven't been able to get onto Sisi yet, so, as regards my already excellently performing golem for nul-sec ratting on TQ, I am just wondering if anyone has figured out:
- Why do these ship need to be changed?
- Why do we need these ship to now be able to pvp (snigger!)?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using the bastion module in cyno-happy-zone nul-sec?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using a pvp fit maurder, bastion moudule fitted or not, in nul-sec?
1. They need changed because they are near useless in pvp and many areas with rats that jam. 2. They are the only combat ships that cannot do pvp. 3. Bait, station camping, gate camping, small gang roams, sig fleet roams, system defense, sniping, null anoms. 4. Small gang roams, sig fleet roams, bait, station camping, gate camping, defense fleets, sniping.
- They were never ment to be used for pvp. Quite the opposite in fact.
- See above.
- You are having a laugh? Aren't you? With the exception of bait, and null anoms (i.e. ratting, what they are designed to do) your pvp is going to consist of activate bastion, recon declokes, light cyno, remember to update your clone before reshipping.
- See above.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8173
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 11:31:00 -
[5271] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:
- They were never ment to be used for pvp. Quite the opposite in fact.
- See above.
- You are having a laugh? Aren't you? With the exception of bait, and null anoms (i.e. ratting, what they are designed to do) your pvp is going to consist of activate bastion, recon declokes, light cyno, remember to update your clone before reshipping.
- See above.
These things can tank small gangs with no help at all, I look forwards to baiting black ops gangs with counter cynos or just flailing upon bombers with Golems with rapids and neuts.
CCP have stated teircide is going to make all combat ships viable in pvp and stated in this very thread that these ships are being reworked with the goal of a viable role in pvp. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
575
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 11:36:00 -
[5272] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:I haven't been able to get onto Sisi yet, so, as regards my already excellently performing golem for nul-sec ratting on TQ, I am just wondering if anyone has figured out:
- Why do these ship need to be changed?
- Why do we need these ship to now be able to pvp (snigger!)?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using the bastion module in cyno-happy-zone nul-sec?
- In what situations can anyone envisage using a pvp fit maurder, bastion moudule fitted or not, in nul-sec?
1. They need changed because they are near useless in pvp and many areas with rats that jam. 2. They are the only combat ships that cannot do pvp. 3. Bait, station camping, gate camping, small gang roams, sig fleet roams, system defense, sniping, null anoms. 4. Small gang roams, sig fleet roams, bait, station camping, gate camping, defense fleets, sniping.
- They were never ment to be used for pvp. Quite the opposite in fact.
- See above.
- You are having a laugh? Aren't you? With the exception of bait, and null anoms (i.e. ratting, what they are designed to do) your pvp is going to consist of activate bastion, recon declokes, light cyno, remember to update your clone before reshipping.
- See above.
Its a ship, taht can field guns, that makes them automatiically made for PVP. They were nerfed for PVP on fear they would be OVERPOWERED on PVP. That is completely differnt on being made so they could not PVP.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

marVLs
447
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 11:47:00 -
[5273] - Quote
Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...
BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8173
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 11:52:00 -
[5274] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...
BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds...
Please do this on Tranquility. |

James Sunder
572 CORP
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:20:00 -
[5275] - Quote
Sorry but I did not wait 5 years for this garbage. If you are going to change the nature of a ship or its original role and force a new play style a refund of sp should come with it. There is nothing wrong with having a PvE specialized ship. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Ok. I will look forward to the changes to all industrial ships, mining barges, capital industrial ships and freighters for PvP.
The transformations are just a waste of time. Do something better like rendering skins for ships that now have less turrets than before. Empty potential turret hardpoints look stupid when I have a full rack of weapons.
MJD still needs to have selectable ranges. If the new role fir the ship is "harassing tactics" it would be better if others did no know that you were jumping off to a fixed 100km distance once the animation starts.
Less drones is less dps so shift that back into the guns/missiles.
How are ships that are hollow inside and have lame sensors and thin skin more heavy and less mobile than the faction navy ships?
Also for all T2 ships to have 2 rig slots rather than 3 is not too bad but what they should do is give 600 calibration rather than 400 for having 1 less rig. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
475
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:26:00 -
[5276] - Quote
+1 for the future noobs that will try to pvp in a ship that can't move! |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
575
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:42:00 -
[5277] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote:+1 for the future noobs that will try to pvp in a ship that can't move! CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode. They were already nerfed before this update. You buffed a nerf  Congrats for the Oxy M......
The catch is.. can 't move while staying as dangerous or effective as it was before it deliberately thrown away its move capability. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
575
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:44:00 -
[5278] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:marVLs wrote:Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...
BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds... Please do this on Tranquility.
Dependign on how many marauders you field its really worth to sacrifice a naglfar that wil have a lot of its cost covered by insurance.
A nagalfar can easily defeat 10 marauders in the field.. while costing 1/5th of that. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
113
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:50:00 -
[5279] - Quote
Still not seeing any reason here to train marauders. I have the skill injected but not even at level 1 yet. Seriously this whole exercise feels like a massive waste of time and resouces. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

baltec1
Bat Country
8174
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:55:00 -
[5280] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:marVLs wrote:Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...
BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds... Please do this on Tranquility. Dependign on how many marauders you field its really worth to sacrifice a naglfar that wil have a lot of its cost covered by insurance. A nagalfar can easily defeat 10 marauders in the field.. while costing 1/5th of that.
So do it, see what happens. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8174
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:58:00 -
[5281] - Quote
James Sunder wrote:Ok. I will look forward to the changes to all industrial ships, mining barges, capital industrial ships and freighters for PvP.
Why would CCP do that for non combat ships?
The Kronos is build as a combat ship, it stands that it should be viable in combat. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 14:03:00 -
[5282] - Quote
Kronos needs atleast a 75/100 drone bay, its dps with rails, navy AM 4 navy magstabs + t2 RoF rig is 1009, thats 70 less than the paladin while actually having more cap issues.
And your "amazing" blaster fit just doesnt have the range for most pve solo situations to be worthwhile. so no. give it dronebay.
And do whatever bastion nerf you need to do to make them useful outside of Bastion. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8174
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 14:08:00 -
[5283] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kronos needs atleast a 75/100 drone bay, its dps with rails, navy AM 4 navy magstabs + t2 RoF rig is 1009, thats 70 less than the paladin while actually having more cap issues.
And your "amazing" blaster fit just doesnt have the range for most pve solo situations to be worthwhile. so no. give it dronebay.
And do whatever bastion nerf you need to do to make them useful outside of Bastion.
Blasters only need to hit 50km to reach everything in anoms in Guristas space. They can hit 70.
|

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 14:23:00 -
[5284] - Quote
You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. .. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

baltec1
Bat Country
8174
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 14:41:00 -
[5285] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. ..
I'll be still on grid long after your naga glass cannons have turned to dust.
Get off EFT and start using these ships before commenting. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
575
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 15:11:00 -
[5286] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. .. I'll be still on grid long after your naga glass cannons have turned to dust. Get off EFT and start using these ships before commenting.
Dude you are the one EFTing. A continued tank without any improved dps is nearly irrelevant on most PVP scenarios. Most of the scenarios where this ship would be useful you should already skip into a dread.
You cannto move? You cannot harm me more than thos eother battleship but you have super tank? Whatever.. I will kil those other battleships and have the effective same improvment in my battle scenario .. and after that I think about the marauders ... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Lucian Thorundan
House Of Serenity.
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 15:19:00 -
[5287] - Quote
Hey guys,
I've had a look on SiSi at the Bastion mode, here are my thoughts:
(mostly based on the vargur FYI)
1. Taking away drones while not increasing DPS at all on the primary weapons system is a little harsh, the DPS is already "OK" on them as it is now, there are many other ships with comparable damage, some of which apply it much better to a much broader range of targets. If you are dropping the drones, maybe buff the damage a little (increase the % per level a little or add a bonus to damage with the bastion module online)
2. Changing the active boost bonus to a webbing bonus is counter-intuitive to the premise of increased range while in bastion mode, it feels a little misplaced. It is also a real blow to the Marauder's PvE capability (their primary use for now and ongoing in my opinion) while not adding much to PvP for it. Something that maybe assists a buffer tank or an active tank might be good here, maybe additional damage bonuses, additional resist bonuses etc? If the webbing bonus is something you really want, maybe add a tracking speed bonus to the bastion module to basically allow people to engage effectively at the closer ranges, combined with the rep bonus + the other bonuses that might make it much better in PvP and PvE all at once.
3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer. maybe decrease the buff but make it absolute rather than a stacking penalty based calculation to slightly increase the gain given most people will bonus their range already with modules. Depending on how the resists are working + will work in the future (built in or from the bastion module or both) this could also work for those - Smaller but absolute increases to raw values, same way the Damage control or ship skill resist bonus's work.
I could write a lot more but I think that pretty much summarises it, I don't have any real ideas on what I would like to see other than to say a damage bonus while in bastion will give a real reason to be IN bastion mode, as it stands now, I gain a tiny bit of extra range and tank bonus's but I'm stuck wherever I choose to activate it for at least 60 seconds.....
NOTE - a full PvP sniper fit is a different deal but this isn't that, it'll have it's own problems too.
As it stands now, I'm basically seeing a very slightly worse PvE ship that wont be overly effective in PvP given the price.
PS - I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I love the concept, I just feel it needs a little work to be completely "right"
PPS - Sorry for the lack of complete thoughts here, It's 2am and I haven't put a lot of thought into other possibilities. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 15:22:00 -
[5288] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark. CCP Ytterbium wrote:So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
I have seen quite a few conflicting reports on how these can work. With the above statement, hopefully we will have enough drone bandwith 75-100 to be effective and they wont be as slow as they currently are. Honestly the Bastion is pretty cool imo. I wish it would have more projection or damage, but that doesn't mean it will.
I have seen the counters. Of course a cyno hot drop can counter these. Of course a dread will blap these. They have to have counters to be balanced. All BS are pretty weak to these 2 situations anyway and if your not watching intel this will happen to you anyway.
Bastion allows for an insane tank. A group of these will have uses, and as a force you will have to tactically use them properly to get the most from them. I am pretty sure you can have a group work in unison on vent or ts and say align, mjd, initiate bastion, kill target x, unbastion, align, mjd out. This is the tactical use for them. If you get dropped on by a dread fleet during the bastion cycle, your group made a tactical error in activating bastion and the dreads should counter you.
On the nueting issue, this seems pretty moot as you can fit cap booster(s) or several nos to counter the nuets. The Golem and Varger neither one really suffer from the same issue.
I will be testing multiple Golem fits tonight, Vargur seems pretty solid if they de-nerf the hull a bit. AC Vargur will not outperform most faction or pirate in anoms (again couldn't find any to test). Arty Vargur will be pretty nice for PVE though, Cruise Golem should perform better than the CNR (and you wont have to perma run bastion, just an in case for that situation). RHML Phoon Fleet will most likely have better completion times than the other missile competition with 5x sentries, again I am going to try to test that out as it seems llike the only ship outside of the SNI to really have a use for them.
Is there any way we could get a testing area with anoms, I roamed provi for a while and couldn't find any the other night? |

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:20:00 -
[5289] - Quote
Looking at feedback from the test server. Would say the drone bandwidth and/or bay needs improvement, especially in consideration that the Kronos comes from the most drone reliant group and suddenly has crap drone capabilities in comparison to other Gallente ships.
My other thought is the Kronos plus Paladin could really use their old hull web bonus back, just to create variety between the marauders making the them the better close combat marauders over the golem and vargur who would fair better at range. Lack of variety is going to make it a little boring if all of the marauders basically fill the "exact" same role with no difference based on their racial ship other than the guns and basic resists. |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:33:00 -
[5290] - Quote
Lucian Thorundan wrote:3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer.
I dont have SiSi installed so i cant test this myself but if the range bonus is stacking penalized then shouldnt we counter this by not using range modules on the ship?
Try fitting it out with more gank and less range and see if the increase in range bastion gives is better that way?
I think the point of the bastion module is to allow u to fit less tank and range mods becuase thats exactly what it gives you.
|
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:34:00 -
[5291] - Quote
1. Taking away drones while not increasing DPS at all on the primary weapons system is a little harsh, the DPS is already "OK" on them as it is now, there are many other ships with comparable damage, some of which apply it much better to a much broader range of targets. If you are dropping the drones, maybe buff the damage a little (increase the % per level a little or add a bonus to damage with the bastion module online)
I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus. |

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:40:00 -
[5292] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:marVLs wrote:Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...
BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds... Please do this on Tranquility. The marauders actually move still there... not likely they are gonna get hit. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:59:00 -
[5293] - Quote
Vargur (AC PvE) feedback after using on sisi:
I agree with what others and CCP acknowledged: hull nerfs were too much. Personally, I believe they should be reverted completely so the marauders can be used in they same way they were used before, but with an extra high or bastion if desired.
Extra power grid: was much needed and appreciated.
MJD Bonus: I actually like this much more than I thought I would, even with an AC fit. I can't say that I'd run one for the majority of 4s, but it will definitely make more appearances on my mission loadouts.
I'm still concerned about the autoloot structure overriding the tractor bonus.
= Bastion = Hmm where to start... Ultimately, i like the option, but dont want it if it means we gotta keep these hull nerfs.
How bout the good stuff first: * lvl 5 tank * cheap and ez lvl 4 omni tank. * extra tank on 4s can free up a mid as u don't really need a strong tank except for a few mins here and there in some missions. * ew immunity for certain missions
Now for the bad: * I don't have hard number, but the difference in projection isnt all that noticeable. ( I assume bc of stacking penalties. I could use bastion range the swap to tracking scripts on the TCs... admittedly I didn't think to try it. I'll get some numbers going on EFT to check this w/e).
* wep timer: I'm not a pvper. Would there be a problem making the timer start at activation and only reapply at the start of a cycle? Not a huge deal, but would be nice.
* what's with the R&D skill prereq? Maybe change to marauders 3 or 4? |

marVLs
448
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 17:08:00 -
[5294] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.
Exepct that it not true.
From how long standing still increase You DPS on AC, Blasters, Torps instead of burning into target? Range bonuses are stacking penalized so it's almost no help, You may say i can fit thx less TC's to bastion range bonus less etc. but it don't work because without bastion Your range is crap then. Please also stop with that dreams that You can put more damage mods... so how i will do this on Golem? or 5th gyro, mag stab, heat sink?
No they wont do at least missions faster, they're slower in them, go check by Yourself. Only paladin now is viable, and tbh it's even better for missions than nightmare so gj at least on that... And btw paladin don't need web bonus now, it's better with mjd + ab/mwd combination + pulse lasers (now better than tachs on paladin for missions).
If You ask me all of them need speed buff, drone bay buff, and vargur needs +1med slot with non stacking penalized bastion range bonuses, kronos need something maybe +1med slot, golem could be pure torp boat so better torps range |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 17:27:00 -
[5295] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Lucian Thorundan wrote:3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer. I dont have SiSi installed so i cant test this myself but if the range bonus is stacking penalized then shouldnt we counter this by not using range modules on the ship? Try fitting it out with more gank and less range and see if the increase in range bastion gives is better that way? I think the point of the bastion module is to allow u to fit less tank and range mods becuase thats exactly what it gives you.
There really is nothing else to fit at some point if you are in a pve situation. On the Vargur you can have 4x gyros, 1x TE, 2x TC and 1x burst aerator rig/1x collision rig. You are starting to run into serious stacking penalties there. And that tank will hold for a very long time in bastion. 1x XL deadspace is more than enough, and with a couple of nos or a cap booster you really don't have to do anything serious to tank with the ship. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 17:51:00 -
[5296] - Quote
Mer88 wrote: I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.
The only time any additional DPS is gained is if a low slot were opened up, all other situations are just potential increases in applied dps, but the ship dps has not gone up. Mid slots are only going to help apply existing dps, often times the stacking penalty and redundancy (unecessary need). The range bonus is a slight increase to where you can apply dps, for some weapon systems, and even then the bonus is minor, additionally as has been pointed out numerous times, to alleviate stacking penalties means when you're not in bastion mode, you've impaired your range. Meaning much of what is being described as a bonus from bastion is actually a zero net gain.
In addition, being unable to move means you can not adjust transversal you are at the mercy of others, the times in which bastion appears to be beneficial can already be achieved without its use. Again, being able to track better, but have 0 control on transversal is not a net gain. Going to extreme ranges to counter this is not something unique to the module, as the bonus to ships fit for this already is minimal, the opening of another slot by bastion is redundant so it doesn't help the situation.
In short, if you could still move and got the range bonus from bastion, then yes you are completely right, you still can have the same transversal, and better tracking which means you can apply dps better than if you did not have the additional tracking, however, this is not how bastion works. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8176
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 17:56:00 -
[5297] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dude you are the one EFTing. A continued tank without any improved dps is nearly irrelevant on most PVP scenarios.
It has more than enough firepower.
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 18:18:00 -
[5298] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dude you are the one EFTing. A continued tank without any improved dps is nearly irrelevant on most PVP scenarios.
It has more than enough firepower.
haha you are wrong! there is no such thing as enough firepower  |

baltec1
Bat Country
8176
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 18:21:00 -
[5299] - Quote
gascanu wrote:haha you are wrong! there is no such thing as enough firepower 
Yes there is.
There just no excuse to not have more |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 18:31:00 -
[5300] - Quote
Outz Xacto wrote:Mer88 wrote: I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.
The only time any additional DPS is gained is if a low slot were opened up, all other situations are just potential increases in applied dps, but the ship dps has not gone up. Mid slots are only going to help apply existing dps, often times the stacking penalty and redundancy (unecessary need). The range bonus is a slight increase to where you can apply dps, for some weapon systems, and even then the bonus is minor, additionally as has been pointed out numerous times, to alleviate stacking penalties means when you're not in bastion mode, you've impaired your range. Meaning much of what is being described as a bonus from bastion is actually a zero net gain. In addition, being unable to move means you can not adjust transversal you are at the mercy of others, the times in which bastion appears to be beneficial can already be achieved without its use. Again, being able to track better, but have 0 control on transversal is not a net gain. Going to extreme ranges to counter this is not something unique to the module, as the bonus to ships fit for this already is minimal, the opening of another slot by bastion is redundant so it doesn't help the situation. In short, if you could still move and got the range bonus from bastion, then yes you are completely right, you still can have the same transversal, and better tracking which means you can apply dps better than if you did not have the additional tracking, however, this is not how bastion works. There may be some scenario's where you're applying more dps, likely however, this had nothing to do with bastion, and had more to do with what the other ship was already going to do, regardless of the use of bastion.
regarding stack penalty , one just need to adjust their modules to take full benefit of the bastion range bonus. like you wouldnt need 2-3 range modules on ship anymore you could use target painters or tracking script. Another method is to use dps rigs . before bastion, you will be gimping your applied damage or damage projection if you were to use a dps rig. Bation module opens up alot of option to marauder class which is amazing
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|

stoicfaux
3223
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 18:43:00 -
[5301] - Quote
Outz Xacto wrote:Mer88 wrote: "I'm highly suspect without you showing some concrete evidence that indicates missiles A. currently can't do this, and B. the bastion'ed velocity allows this to be achieved in all/most situations. I do recall something that indicated current achievable velocities doing this in a number of cases/ranges."
I think you can do this on TQ with 2x t2 missile speed if you have max missile speed skills to avoid the defenders. with Bastion module on you only need a T1 missile speed rig which give you 300 calibration left for 2t dps rig it should still give you a 25 + 15 speed increase. so in conclusion you can free up a rigg slot and still avoid defender missiles if you use the bastion module for cruise missiles. at least this is how i hope it will be
Of course I havn't been able to find where I read the discussion on defender avoidance (I know really helps my argument eh!?), but thought that at or around 11km/s that defenders started to fail, and that it was said to be more at further ranges (assuming due to acceleration). With your proposed rigging setup, damage application becomes an issue I'd think, especially in comparison to the RNI. Going to also hit some diminishing returns, iirc with your rig setup too for missile velocity, as others have pointed out with what riggings to use for maximizing torp distance. For CM that rig setup gives up 40% missile ER reduction... NPC Defenders acting screwy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3411475#post3411475 (e.g. always missing at 70+km, hitting less often than expected, etc.) Still needs more formal testing at more ranges, which I haven't had the time/patience to do.
As for the Golem in level 4s, you can fit a two slot tank (Pithum C MSB + invul II) and use 4 TPs on each and every target, which tends to makes the choice between missile speed rigs or rigor rigs a bit moot. Use Bastion mode to pick up the slack in tanking when you need it. The MJD on my sisi Golem was just for looks.
A Golem with Pithum C MSB + Invul II + Bastion mode lasted 4m 7s in AE's bonus room with full room aggro (killed only the trigger to spawn the extra battleships.)
|

Ewersmen
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 19:18:00 -
[5302] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
This is a bad idea .....if you cant see that then you cant see past your own nose......just make a new class of ship??? |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
272
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 19:39:00 -
[5303] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium, un-nerf everything that you've already done to the hulls. We want these ships to be able to continue doing what they have always been doing, shooting rats.
Go ahead with the bastion, but make it so that it never has to be considered for PvE, and we can carry on as before. With the possible sole exception of wormhole warfare, your PvP idea is a dead duck, and you could be better spending your time on something productive. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

TehCloud
Mastercard.
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 19:55:00 -
[5304] - Quote
How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?
Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,
The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null. My Condor costs less than that module! |

baltec1
Bat Country
8176
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:00:00 -
[5305] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?
Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,
The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.
You fly them with other ships like the new EA-frigs that get an 80km web. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:07:00 -
[5306] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:TehCloud wrote:How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?
Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,
The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null. You fly them with other ships like the new EA-frigs that get an 80km web.
Or a Loki or Scimitar... going solo in Marauder is like going solo in Dread... |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
773
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:10:00 -
[5307] - Quote
Ewersmen wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
This is a bad idea .....if you cant see that then you cant see past your own nose......just make a new class of ship??? New ship class isn't justified here. There really isn't enough for it. Depending on what is given back we could well wind up with something close to the marauders of old + the option of Bastion. Besides, another class with bastion while leaving the current ships as is will just further step on the toes of marauders. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
195
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:11:00 -
[5308] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?
Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,
The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.
Have to agree. Much as I didn't see the reasoning behind trading rep bonus on the hulls for a web bonus, a Kronos in its current state without it seems very naked. |

STush T
Capital Sin
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:14:00 -
[5309] - Quote
I was disturbed when I learned that all my time spent on training into a pve ship was going to be for a new pvp ship. But taking it in stride, a good pvp ship is also a good pve ship, right? Except rats are nothing like real people, but anyway. All i really need to feel like i didnt waste my time training into marauder V is a ship with good dps, survive ability, mobility, and someway to loot and salvage. "Come back with a noctis" someone might say, I didnt train into a noctis, I trained into a marauder because of its capabilities. "Have an alt in a noctis" Im not going to pay twice as much because you decided to ruin my way of play. "This is EVE, adapt" yes Im aware change is normal, but if you save up money to buy tacos, and on the way to your table it turns into a hamburger, thats a bit much. At most give me fish tacos instead of chicken
All Im saying is, dont forget that the reason people fly a marauder up until Nov 19, is because its pve capabilities. If you forget that role, you basically have just eliminated that ship, and wasted the marauder pilots time.
Disclaimers -I speak only from a PVE standpoint, missions to be more specific. -This is written from MY standpoint, and other pilots like me. I dont pvp, so obviously Im not interested in how well it will do in pvp.
The new marauder may be dandy, but if its lost the role that i trained into it for, then my time was wasted.
One last thing, WHERE IS THE INFO ON THE Deployable Tractor Structure? kind of a big deal to pveers |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
715
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:27:00 -
[5310] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium, as far as I understand, is not trying to eliminate the PvE ability of Marauders. He's trying to move them from being PvE-only into being suitable for both PvE and PvP. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:33:00 -
[5311] - Quote
anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8177
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:36:00 -
[5312] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon.
Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos? |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 20:58:00 -
[5313] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon. Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?
lol why does fleet typhooon get it but not typhoon then? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
715
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 21:08:00 -
[5314] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon. Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos? lol why does fleet typhooon get it but not typhoon then?
Are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between a regular T1 ship and a faction ship, but then mix a T2 ship of a whole different race into it as well? |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 21:27:00 -
[5315] - Quote
STush T wrote:I was disturbed when I learned that all my time spent on training into a pve ship was going to be for a new pvp ship. But taking it in stride, a good pvp ship is also a good pve ship, right? Except rats are nothing like real people, but anyway. All i really need to feel like i didnt waste my time training into marauder V is a ship with good dps, survive ability, mobility, and someway to loot and salvage. "Come back with a noctis" someone might say, I didnt train into a noctis, I trained into a marauder because of its capabilities. "Have an alt in a noctis" Im not going to pay twice as much because you decided to ruin my way of play. "This is EVE, adapt" yes Im aware change is normal, but if you save up money to buy tacos, and on the way to your table it turns into a hamburger, thats a bit much. At most give me fish tacos instead of chicken
All Im saying is, dont forget that the reason people fly a marauder up until Nov 19, is because its pve capabilities. If you forget that role, you basically have just eliminated that ship, and wasted the marauder pilots time.
Disclaimers -I speak only from a PVE standpoint, missions to be more specific. -This is written from MY standpoint, and other pilots like me. I dont pvp, so obviously Im not interested in how well it will do in pvp.
The new marauder may be dandy, but if its lost the role that i trained into it for, then my time was wasted.
One last thing, WHERE IS THE INFO ON THE Deployable Tractor Structure? kind of a big deal to pveers
CCP Yitterbium stated that they will be giving back some (maybe all?) of the hull nerf. Several have had fitting increases, so if the hulls are close to the old with some fitting extras, you will be at a net increase in capabilities. Then you can activate Bastion (oh sh*t button) and super tank if need be, or break EWAR. You can pull distance by MJDing, and you will be able to blap frigs, which all turret ships can do at zero transversal from range. With the 60 sec cd you have plenty of time, and you have more fitting options with Bastion. What the ships do not have is more dps than faction or Pirate, or mobility of some of them, and they won't be getting the web bonus back either. Less drone/bay, although we may be getting some of that back too. The Paly/Kronos can dual prop, the Golem / Vargur can dual ASB (so far if you dual asb i think 1 large and 1 xl will be enough, or just fit a Large or XL booster + cap booster). This ship line has more choice now than ever, hell the vargur can actually fit Arties now..
You can still also fit your salvagers and tractors as they all received an extra high (Bastion is like 7cpu and 100 grid to fit...). The auto tractor structure may make the tractor bonus obsolete, and you can fit multiple salvagers if that's the case. I think I saw somewhere that it was going to be 50m3 in hold and 1000m3 in space, can't remember where though. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4721
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 21:55:00 -
[5316] - Quote
This occurred to me in a related thread.
So as to more closely match the Marauder description, and to not tread on Noctis territory as much, perhaps you could consider giving Marauders a special cargo hold that only holds the new personal array's (such as the Depot and the tractor/loot array).
If this were done a Marauder would be uniquely able to set up a base camp of sorts deep in hostile territory to conduct NPC operations and would likely have some PVP applications as well if you consider the cyno jammer array.
You might also then consider turning that tractor range/velocity bonus into a salvaging bonus instead.
It would promote use of the new arrays, and make Marauders a much more flexible and unique platform for people to consider. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 21:57:00 -
[5317] - Quote
TehCloud wrote:How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?
Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,
The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.
If they give the Marauders 125mbit bandwidth people will do stupidly absurd gimmick fits. The Kronos will run missions shield tanked with 4 magstabs and 3 DDAs with 5 sentry drones. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 22:36:00 -
[5318] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:NPC Defenders acting screwy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3411475#post3411475 (e.g. always missing at 70+km, hitting less often than expected, etc.) Still needs more formal testing at more ranges, which I haven't had the time/patience to do. As for the Golem in level 4s, you can fit a two slot tank (Pithum C MSB + invul II) and use 4 TPs on each and every target, which tends to makes the choice between missile speed rigs or rigor rigs a bit moot. Use Bastion mode to pick up the slack in tanking when you need it. The MJD on my sisi Golem was just for looks. A Golem with Pithum C MSB + Invul II + Bastion mode lasted 4m 7s in AE's bonus room with full room aggro (killed only the trigger to spawn the extra battleships.) Nice find with the article thanks!
4th TP isn't accomplishing anything. You will kill faster with 1x rigor 1 and 3 TPs than you will with 4 TPs and no rigor. A rigor and 4 TPs does nothing either to the volley count to kill ships (that having rigors/TPing matter). So the 4th TP is a waste. (So no, its not moot between missile speed/rigors, and the only reason truely that you would get away with less rigors is due to the TP cycle change and being able to stack them on targets reliably, NOT due to changes made to the golem.)
However, I do agree, it gives you that extra mid slot. (3 slot tanking is already possible for the Golem, so can't reliably say its getting 2 mid slots with the use of Bastion). I could see some applications to take advantage of the slot gained, I also however see that just adding a mid slot to the hull without introducing the bastion module could have accomplished similar results when considering the drawbacks associated with Bastion.
So far, unfortunately I still believe that the change to TP's cycle time (not a maraudar specific change) and the cap change on the Golem (my maraudar of choice), are the real changes that matter. Both of which were simple and easy, everything involved in this bastion module seems like a massive waste of designer/developer resources to throw a coat of paint over mold and hope no one notices. The Golem still struggles to have the same flexibility the RNI has, and doesn't perform better than the RNI, where CM's are concerned with these changes. It's still got its perks, but those were already there to begin with and why I liked the ship already, the bastion change isn't really doing much for the hull, that couldn't have been done easier/better. |

STush T
Capital Sin
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 23:03:00 -
[5319] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:
CCP Yitterbium stated that they will be giving back some (maybe all?) of the hull nerf. Several have had fitting increases, so if the hulls are close to the old with some fitting extras, you will be at a net increase in capabilities. Then you can activate Bastion (oh sh*t button) and super tank if need be, or break EWAR. You can pull distance by MJDing, and you will be able to blap frigs, which all turret ships can do at zero transversal from range. With the 60 sec cd you have plenty of time, and you have more fitting options with Bastion. What the ships do not have is more dps than faction or Pirate, or mobility of some of them, and they won't be getting the web bonus back either. Less drone/bay, although we may be getting some of that back too. The Paly/Kronos can dual prop, the Golem / Vargur can dual ASB (so far if you dual asb i think 1 large and 1 xl will be enough, or just fit a Large or XL booster + cap booster). This ship line has more choice now than ever, hell the vargur can actually fit Arties now..
You can still also fit your salvagers and tractors as they all received an extra high (Bastion is like 7cpu and 100 grid to fit...). The auto tractor structure may make the tractor bonus obsolete, and you can fit multiple salvagers if that's the case. I think I saw somewhere that it was going to be 50m3 in hold and 1000m3 in space, can't remember where though.
I am aware of some of the benefits, ewar immunity being a huge plus, but my concerns are for the ability to shoot, salvage, and move. If it is like you say it is, then I will be tickled pink and be absolutely content. Perfect would be if they threw in another mid so that you didnt have to lose anything to fit a MJD though. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 00:44:00 -
[5320] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mer88 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon. Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos? lol why does fleet typhooon get it but not typhoon then? Are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between a regular T1 ship and a faction ship, but then mix a T2 ship of a whole different race into it as well?
phoon -> fleet Phoon ->
Mega -> navy mega -> kronos
Phoon does nto have it, Fleet phoon does
Mega does not have it, Navy mega does.
no particular reason that the Kronos souldnt have it just because the base model does not. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1311
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 00:53:00 -
[5321] - Quote
Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 01:17:00 -
[5322] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
you know you dont have to use it right? and ccp probably gonna buff the hull so think of it as a free high slot and you can probably do what u were doing before the bastion |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
93
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 01:19:00 -
[5323] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Oh, stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. Even without bastion, you got an optimal range bonus, a fitting bonus, and a massive cap bonus in exchange for the web bonus, 20% movement speed, and 50m3 drone bay. Since the 90% web was absolutely not essential in Incursions at all, they have been by no means made useless. You can still do everything you did before, especially since they stated they were going to eliminate the hull nerfs and give back some dronebay. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 02:25:00 -
[5324] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lol.
Here's something a TQ Vargur can't do. Tank room aggro in Nation's Commander with a Pithum A-Type MEDIUM Shield Booster. The SiSi one CAN. (Dead space fitted w/boosts from a maxed shield/skirmish leadership toon.) And that's with full Sansha influence.
Granted it has trouble getting solid hits on orbiting frigs, same as the new Pally or Kronos (also capable of tanking solo with Core X-Type Large Armor Rep + leadership boosts), but TWO marauders, each with two 60% webs has no issue locking any incursion frig down. And they can each tank full aggro.
I didn't test a Golem, cause missiles are meh, but no reason to think otherwise in terms of tanking ability.
A good Incursion vanguard fleet will still want Bhaal or Loki webs to be fast, but it certainly makes things post Nov-19 different and therefore interesting.
BTW, I finished a number of Nation's Commander sites with a single Marauder on SiSi (excepting the off grid booster). The new Paladin optimal bonus is frickin awesome as is the cap. 25km optimal T2 Mega Pulses (IN Multifreq) with NO optimal range mods? C'mon, that's awesome. I was used to running 2x optimal rigs on Nightmares for full hits at 21KM. Important for incursions.
Paladin 1100+ dps w/faction 4 heat sinks + implants 2 CCC's 2 deadspace EANM's Core X-Type LAR DCII Maxed Offgrid booster with the Fed Navy mindlink in an Astarte
Resists in the 80's when Bastioned. NO trimarks, NO plates. Not needed when repping 3542 armor every 8.2 secs.
Nosferatus are interesting. Marauders can't get much cap back from frigs or cruisers and they can't use energy transfers when Bastioned, but they CAN help each other using NOS's. I was able to keep a Kronos at 50% cap using the Pally. (Love, love, love the Pally's new cap stats.)
BTW, that Vargur was repping 872 shields every 2.2 seconds with the Pithum MEDIUM. I giggled. It didn't even need a CCC.
Blinged out incursion boats are nothing new. Solo, self-repping incursion boats ARE.
I can easily do a 7 person fleet, with 2-3 Paladins (or Kronos), 1 Bhaal, 2-3 Oneiros with re-sebo/re-tracking comps, 1 off grid Eos or Astarte for now, ongrid when needed, 1 ore runner for the mining site in a MWD transport.
New. Different. Interesting. This is good. This is Eve. Toughen the heck up? |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 02:32:00 -
[5325] - Quote
Taking back the hull nerfs? I'm absolutely loving the sound of that, it's looking like I'll be able to fit for Incursion HQ sites half decently now. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 02:44:00 -
[5326] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:So, managed to get my golem into Recon. That has always been a crappy mission due to ranges and at points high incoming dps.
Tank basically a non-factor... Tanks like a champ
Travel part 2 - MJD to warp gate and land within range to trigger. Part 3 - MJD out, wait, MJD to gate.. Done basically 2 minutes give or take to complete
I don't know what recon you get but vs guristas they die faster than they spawn. and they all hang out at 37km or so which is nicely in the kill zone for many ships. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 02:55:00 -
[5327] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lucian Thorundan wrote:3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer. I dont have SiSi installed so i cant test this myself but if the range bonus is stacking penalized then shouldnt we counter this by not using range modules on the ship? Try fitting it out with more gank and less range and see if the increase in range bastion gives is better that way? I think the point of the bastion module is to allow u to fit less tank and range mods becuase thats exactly what it gives you. There really is nothing else to fit at some point if you are in a pve situation. On the Vargur you can have 4x gyros, 1x TE, 2x TC and 1x burst aerator rig/1x collision rig. You are starting to run into serious stacking penalties there. And that tank will hold for a very long time in bastion. 1x XL deadspace is more than enough, and with a couple of nos or a cap booster you really don't have to do anything serious to tank with the ship.
except that is already my TQ varg fit. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 03:04:00 -
[5328] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon. Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?
Mega used to be 125/125, and it seems more like the hyperion these days. although on that note the navy mega has 125/175 You can trust me, I have a monocole |

STush T
Capital Sin
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 03:09:00 -
[5329] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote: New. Different. Interesting. This is good. This is Eve. Toughen the heck up?
Im tired of people saying change is good. Change is only good if its change for the better, otherwise its just s pointless hassle. Its like saying "Im bored with driving, so im going to change it, Im going to change the rules of the road. not for the better, but just so its different." Saying, "Thats eve" doesnt really cover it. My two cents
By the way, this had nothing to do with marauders. Im now looking forward the new change. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 03:15:00 -
[5330] - Quote
STush T wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:
CCP Yitterbium stated that they will be giving back some (maybe all?) of the hull nerf. Several have had fitting increases, so if the hulls are close to the old with some fitting extras, you will be at a net increase in capabilities. Then you can activate Bastion (oh sh*t button) and super tank if need be, or break EWAR. You can pull distance by MJDing, and you will be able to blap frigs, which all turret ships can do at zero transversal from range. With the 60 sec cd you have plenty of time, and you have more fitting options with Bastion. What the ships do not have is more dps than faction or Pirate, or mobility of some of them, and they won't be getting the web bonus back either. Less drone/bay, although we may be getting some of that back too. The Paly/Kronos can dual prop, the Golem / Vargur can dual ASB (so far if you dual asb i think 1 large and 1 xl will be enough, or just fit a Large or XL booster + cap booster). This ship line has more choice now than ever, hell the vargur can actually fit Arties now..
You can still also fit your salvagers and tractors as they all received an extra high (Bastion is like 7cpu and 100 grid to fit...). The auto tractor structure may make the tractor bonus obsolete, and you can fit multiple salvagers if that's the case. I think I saw somewhere that it was going to be 50m3 in hold and 1000m3 in space, can't remember where though.
I am aware of some of the benefits, ewar immunity being a huge plus, but my concerns are for the ability to shoot, salvage, and move. If it is like you say it is, then I will be tickled pink and be absolutely content. Perfect would be if they threw in another mid so that you didnt have to lose anything to fit a MJD though.
you can lose at least one tank mod, most of the time 2 with bastion, which for the shield versions opens up the space for the MJD
|
|

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 03:24:00 -
[5331] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:TehCloud wrote:How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?
Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,
The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null. If they give the Marauders 125mbit bandwidth people will do stupidly absurd gimmick fits. The Kronos will run missions shield tanked with 4 magstabs and 3 DDAs with 5 sentry drones.
I will agree 125mbit on a kronos does seem a bit much, but it wouldn't be terribly far off of what some other ships are already doing. although that bastion tank bonus does make tanking trivial compared with other ships. 1383 dps with rails and 5 wardens (3 dda, 4 faction magstabs, t2 rof rig, and 5% implants). the 1508 with gardes is a bit much though. and with blasters it just gets silly.
but the kronos should probably keep the ability to use 3 sentries, and maybe even a 4th. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 04:27:00 -
[5332] - Quote
Still not using a micro jump drive. AC Vargur does not gain much for range. I ran 4 gyros and 1 tracking enhancer in low slots; 2 tracking computers, two shield amplifiers, a large shield booster, and either an invulnerability or an after burner in mid slots; 4 800mm AC, and a bastion module in high slots (all tech 2 modules if there is a tech 2 version of the module available).
The use of this ship for me is mostly dependent on just how far the hull changes with revert back to the current hull statistics. I like the ship as it is live. I would like to gain a damage projection benefit from newly proposed changes. An AC fit Vargur (I will play around with it more) does not seem to gain a damage projection significant enough for me to even think of a micro jump drive.
I look to kill targets faster and/or go faster (as in velocity). I like running missions. I want to do them efficiently as possible. Will I use bastion module? Sure, if it is an extra option for my fairly useless extra high slots (considering tractor bonus is less than other options: new structure and Notics). Will I ever want to sit still for 60 seconds? Only if I am facing HEAVY e-war or for ***** and giggles and tanking a whole room for the heck of it. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8180
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 07:11:00 -
[5333] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon. Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos? Mega used to be 125/125, and it seems more like the hyperion these days. although on that note the navy mega has 125/175
Yet the mega does fine.
Just because its a gal ship does not mean it must be able to deploy a full set of sentries. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
720
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 07:47:00 -
[5334] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium has already nailed the coffin shut on any idea of Marauders getting more than the 75Mbit/sec they have now. He's also pretty much indicated that they won't even be keeping that. See what you can do with 50MBit or less. Also, just for clarification, he's not taking back all of the hull nerfs; he's considering reducing some of them. Personally, I hope this includes a mass reduction.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
I don't fly any of those ships and rarely touch anything bigger than a battlecruiser. Can I still gloat? |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
106
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 09:48:00 -
[5335] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Someone slap her , she's hysterical If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
106
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 09:49:00 -
[5336] - Quote
Calm down and don't hurt yourself, it's a game. We'r ment to be having fun her. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 10:49:00 -
[5337] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lawl how bout they take ur favorite PvP ship that took months to train into and turn it into a PvE / Indy ship. Oh and your second best choice for pvp happens to take less train time. Then we post a rant about how you should stop whining and move to hisec. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
578
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 11:04:00 -
[5338] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lawl how bout they take ur favorite PvP ship that took months to train into and turn it into a PvE / Indy ship. Oh and your second best choice for pvp happens to take less train time. Then we post a rant about how you should stop whining and move to hisec.
are you trying to be stubborn or you are that limited? makign a ship PVP does nto make it non PVE able.
The macahriel was made for PVP, yet is used a LOT for pve. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 11:45:00 -
[5339] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lol. Here's something a TQ Vargur can't do. Tank room aggro in Nation's Commander with a Pithum A-Type MEDIUM Shield Booster. The SiSi one CAN. (Dead space fitted w/boosts from a maxed shield/skirmish leadership toon.) And that's with full Sansha influence. Granted it has trouble getting solid hits on orbiting frigs, same as the new Pally or Kronos (also capable of tanking solo with Core X-Type Large Armor Rep + leadership boosts), but TWO marauders, each with two 60% webs has no issue locking any incursion frig down. And they can each tank full aggro. I didn't test a Golem, cause missiles are meh, but no reason to think otherwise in terms of tanking ability. A good Incursion vanguard fleet will still want Bhaal or Loki webs to be fast, but it certainly makes things post Nov-19 different and therefore interesting. BTW, I finished a number of Nation's Commander sites with a single Marauder on SiSi (excepting the off grid booster). The new Paladin optimal bonus is frickin awesome as is the cap. 25km optimal T2 Mega Pulses (IN Multifreq) with NO optimal range mods? C'mon, that's awesome. I was used to running 2x optimal rigs on Nightmares for full hits at 21KM. Important for incursions. Paladin 1100+ dps w/4 faction heat sinks + implants OR 3 faction heat sinks + aerator II rig + implants (depends on cap longevity wanted) 1-2 CCC's 3 NOS Bastion 4 Mega Pulse II w/IN Multi, Scorch 2 60% webs, 2 TC's or 3 60% webs, 1 TC. It's a wash either way. You really need two marauders to get decent hits on frigs. 2 deadspace EANM's DCII (tried with AND without, both work, though one is a bit more dramatic under full room dps) Core X-Type LAR Maxed offgrid booster with the Fed Navy mindlink in a 6-link Astarte Resists in the 80's when Bastioned (low 80's without DC2, mid 80's with). NO trimarks, NO plates. Not needed when repping 3542 armor every 8.2 secs. Nosferatus are interesting. Marauders can't get much cap back from frigs or cruisers and they can't use energy transfers when Bastioned, but they CAN help each other using NOS's. I was able to keep a Kronos at 50% cap using the Pally. (Love, love, love the Pally's new cap stats.) BTW, that Vargur was repping 872 shields every 2.2 seconds with the Pithum MEDIUM. I giggled. It didn't even need a CCC. Blinged out incursion boats are nothing new. Solo, self-repping incursion boats ARE. I can easily do a 7 person fleet, with 2-3 Paladins (or Kronos), 1 Bhaal, 2-3 Oneiros with re-sebo/re-tracking comps, 1 offgrid Eos or Astarte for now, ongrid when needed, 1 ore runner for the mining site in an MWD transport. New. Different. Interesting. This is good. This is Eve. Toughen the heck up?
Exactly what the game needs is new and interesting ways to accomplish things. AC Vargur / Torp Golem get the least projection from the bastion, though. This may need looked at just to keep things level.
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
446
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 12:28:00 -
[5340] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lol. Here's something a TQ Vargur can't do. Tank room aggro in Nation's Commander with a Pithum A-Type MEDIUM Shield Booster. The SiSi one CAN. (Dead space fitted w/boosts from a maxed shield/skirmish leadership toon.) And that's with full Sansha influence. Granted it has trouble getting solid hits on orbiting frigs, same as the new Pally or Kronos (also capable of tanking solo with Core X-Type Large Armor Rep + leadership boosts), but TWO marauders, each with two 60% webs has no issue locking any incursion frig down. And they can each tank full aggro. I didn't test a Golem, cause missiles are meh, but no reason to think otherwise in terms of tanking ability. A good Incursion vanguard fleet will still want Bhaal or Loki webs to be fast, but it certainly makes things post Nov-19 different and therefore interesting. BTW, I finished a number of Nation's Commander sites with a single Marauder on SiSi (excepting the off grid booster). The new Paladin optimal bonus is frickin awesome as is the cap. 25km optimal T2 Mega Pulses (IN Multifreq) with NO optimal range mods? C'mon, that's awesome. I was used to running 2x optimal rigs on Nightmares for full hits at 21KM. Important for incursions. Paladin 1100+ dps w/4 faction heat sinks + implants OR 3 faction heat sinks + aerator II rig + implants (depends on cap longevity wanted) 1-2 CCC's 3 NOS Bastion 4 Mega Pulse II w/IN Multi, Scorch 2 60% webs, 2 TC's or 3 60% webs, 1 TC. It's a wash either way. You really need two marauders to get decent hits on frigs. 2 deadspace EANM's DCII (tried with AND without, both work, though one is a bit more dramatic under full room dps) Core X-Type LAR Maxed offgrid booster with the Fed Navy mindlink in a 6-link Astarte Resists in the 80's when Bastioned (low 80's without DC2, mid 80's with). NO trimarks, NO plates. Not needed when repping 3542 armor every 8.2 secs. Nosferatus are interesting. Marauders can't get much cap back from frigs or cruisers and they can't use energy transfers when Bastioned, but they CAN help each other using NOS's. I was able to keep a Kronos at 50% cap using the Pally. (Love, love, love the Pally's new cap stats.) BTW, that Vargur was repping 872 shields every 2.2 seconds with the Pithum MEDIUM. I giggled. It didn't even need a CCC. Blinged out incursion boats are nothing new. Solo, self-repping incursion boats ARE. I can easily do a 7 person fleet, with 2-3 Paladins (or Kronos), 1 Bhaal, 2-3 Oneiros with re-sebo/re-tracking comps, 1 offgrid Eos or Astarte for now, ongrid when needed, 1 ore runner for the mining site in an MWD transport. New. Different. Interesting. This is good. This is Eve. Toughen the heck up? Exactly what the game needs is new and interesting ways to accomplish things. AC Vargur / Torp Golem get the least projection from the bastion, though. This may need looked at just to keep things level.
Yes what this game needs are ships that can tank group content solo with medium booster what is next auto spawn if you manage to loose ultimate Hand holding ship?
Toughen the heck up? Thank you I needed lol this morning. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
|

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
272
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 12:56:00 -
[5341] - Quote
All very nice this theory crafting for PvE, but CCP thinks this is now going to be a PvP ship!!! Tell me about the PvP people... I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 13:28:00 -
[5342] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lawl how bout they take ur favorite PvP ship that took months to train into and turn it into a PvE / Indy ship. Oh and your second best choice for pvp happens to take less train time. Then we post a rant about how you should stop whining and move to hisec. are you trying to be stubborn or you are that limited? makign a ship PVP does nto make it non PVE able. The macahriel was made for PVP, yet is used a LOT for pve. Yet the proposed nerfs to the marauders pve efficiency, were implemented for PvP... After all, marauders currently can be used for PvP, there are just much better choices out there... This is fairly similar bc with the proposed nerfs, pirate ships are more appealing for pve, even though I could still use a marauder. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 13:40:00 -
[5343] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:All very nice this theory crafting for PvE, but CCP thinks this is now going to be a PvP ship!!! Tell me about the PvP people...
You can make as much PVP with the marauders as you want. OFC if the ships become viable for PVP.
But what you can't forget is the situation in which all the actual Marauder pilots are. They invested quite some skill time in a ship mostly 95% used for PvE.
So if you change the marauder in any way, leave it in a position that you create no negative effect for the PvElers. And with the actual version of the Vargur i need more time in most missions, which sucks.
I know the tank is extremely good, but in a vargur the free slots are not usable effectivly. |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 13:53:00 -
[5344] - Quote
I would say that "new" paladin is better than current one I would only want to see "reduced mass" to original value....
The problem is that they will create super sniper ship from paladin with ability to repair themself if needed but other ships will dont have this possibility.
To be honest I dont expect that I will need to repair myself very often I will just jump in ...... jump out with MJD sniper everything down and jump back. If I will need I will also use bastion but I dont expect big damage on that range which needs to be repaired:-) (I would prefer if I will have increased ressists outside of bastion and there will be no bonus in bastion - just the bonus to repair amount) |

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 14:24:00 -
[5345] - Quote
do the resistances provided for bastion module work like the damage control? i mean is it not stack penalized? Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
571
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 14:51:00 -
[5346] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:do the resistances provided for bastion module work like the damage control? i mean is it not stack penalized?
Correct |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:18:00 -
[5347] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:do the resistances provided for bastion module work like the damage control? i mean is it not stack penalized? Correct
i thought it get stack penalty like the range bonus |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
571
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:28:00 -
[5348] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:do the resistances provided for bastion module work like the damage control? i mean is it not stack penalized? Correct i thought it get stack penalty like the range bonus
range is, resists are not...
Resists is at intended.
I don't know about range.. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:35:00 -
[5349] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards. Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec". Every one of your actions displays what you think.
Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.
You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others. Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.
Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.
And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.
Lawl how bout they take ur favorite PvP ship that took months to train into and turn it into a PvE / Indy ship. Oh and your second best choice for pvp happens to take less train time. Then we post a rant about how you should stop whining and move to hisec. are you trying to be stubborn or you are that limited? makign a ship PVP does nto make it non PVE able. The macahriel was made for PVP, yet is used a LOT for pve. Yet the proposed nerfs to the marauders pve efficiency, were implemented for PvP... After all, marauders currently can be used for PvP, there are just much better choices out there... This is fairly similar bc with the proposed nerfs, pirate ships are more appealing for pve, even though I could still use a marauder.
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:37:00 -
[5350] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:All very nice this theory crafting for PvE, but CCP thinks this is now going to be a PvP ship!!! Tell me about the PvP people... You can make as much PVP with the marauders as you want. OFC if the ships become viable for PVP. But what you can't forget is the situation in which all the actual Marauder pilots are. They invested quite some skill time in a ship mostly 95% used for PvE. So if you change the marauder in any way, leave it in a position that you create no negative effect for the PvElers. And with the actual version of the Vargur i need more time in most missions, which sucks. I know the tank is extremely good, but in a vargur the free slots are not usable effectivly.
Nope. I have marauder V for years and for PVP . Tried a bit of pve if them.. but mehhh sicne the nerf to T1 loot drop became useles. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8181
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:44:00 -
[5351] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1313
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:02:00 -
[5352] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP 
No one is going to fly a billion ISK subcap hull in PvP when it has to be stationary for a minute to maximize bonuses. And given how much of a pig it is to fly now, going system to system, only people will use it are those with jump bridge and titan bridge networks.
Of course, that is the only way you fly, so it is fine with you. Everyone else, no way they take this pig out for a spin in PvP. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

michaelthered
HexEstrella
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:06:00 -
[5353] - Quote
Not touching the marauders DPS makes this rebalance useless. Marauders should be on par with the pirate ships DPS wise without any sort of siege mode. With the bastion mode DPS should logically increase.. At the very least give boats like the Vargur an extra low slot and maybe another one goes active when bastion mode is enabled. And nerfing the resists even outside of bastion mode is terrible.
ps can we have a fleet issue maelstrom? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8182
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:14:00 -
[5354] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
No one is going to fly a billion ISK subcap hull in PvP when it has to be stationary for a minute to maximize bonuses.
Dreads, pre-tracking nerf Titians ect.
A 1 bil price tag isn't that much these days and I don't see why this ship wont be as survivable as any of my other mega hulls. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8182
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:16:00 -
[5355] - Quote
michaelthered wrote:Not touching the marauders DPS makes this rebalance useless. Marauders should be on par with the pirate ships DPS wise without any sort of siege mode. With the bastion mode DPS should logically increase.. At the very least give boats like the Vargur an extra low slot and maybe another one goes active when bastion mode is enabled. And nerfing the resists even outside of bastion mode is terrible.
ps can we have a fleet issue maelstrom?
They are on par with t1 battleships. They dont need more firepower to be viable. |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:32:00 -
[5356] - Quote
Isinero wrote:If I will need I will also use bastion but I dont expect big damage on that range which needs to be repaired:-) (I would prefer if I will have increased ressists outside of bastion and there will be no bonus in bastion - just the bonus to repair amount)
This is something I fully support. Bastion is fun to use but these ships need to be viable without using that module as well. Although, if the base shield/armor/hull stats are restored, I don't think we'll be in too bad of shape.
michaelthered wrote:Marauders should be on par with the pirate ships DPS wise without any sort of siege mode. With the bastion mode DPS should logically increase.
I'd like a DPS bonus as well (I'd even take a small DPS bonus at the cost of reducing (not removing) the repping bonus) but you have to remember that CCP said they are rebalancing pirate BS's as well. And I personally think it'll be a nerf. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:41:00 -
[5357] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP 
On the test server, 1v1 these things are beasts. I died to a thanatos with furlbogs only because for some reason my ASB's wouldn't reload. Otherwise I couldv'e tanked then for quite a while. High sec wars this thing will be the go to large ship. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:53:00 -
[5358] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP 
The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move? The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats?
The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:53:00 -
[5359] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP  On the test server, 1v1 these things are beasts. I died to a thanatos with furlbogs only because for some reason my ASB's wouldn't reload. Otherwise I couldv'e tanked then for quite a while. High sec wars this thing will be the go to large ship.
Right we will love to see our targets flying those pinatas.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country
8184
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:05:00 -
[5360] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move?
Use the new E-War frigs.
Kagura Nikon wrote: The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats?
Just as much firepower as T1 and longer range with better damage application. They wont jam you because they cant.
Kagura Nikon wrote: The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away?
So it already has an advantage over the other snipers.
|
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4725
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:11:00 -
[5361] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP  The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move? The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats? The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away? This is an amusingly narrow view of how combat takes place in EVE.
Yes, there will be situations where a Marauder component in your fleet will be a poor choice, but not all... not by a long shot. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1313
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:37:00 -
[5362] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
No one is going to fly a billion ISK subcap hull in PvP when it has to be stationary for a minute to maximize bonuses.
Dreads, pre-tracking nerf Titians ect. A 1 bil price tag isn't that much these days and I don't see why this ship wont be as survivable as any of my other mega hulls.
Spoken by someone who has not paid for a hull in years. The fact that a goon, especially you, are saying publicly that these changes are good, proves to me that they are really awful for the average player. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:48:00 -
[5363] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move?
Use the new E-War frigs. Kagura Nikon wrote: The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats?
Just as much firepower as T1 and longer range with better damage application. They wont jam you because they cant. Kagura Nikon wrote: The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away?
So it already has an advantage over the other snipers.
1- irrelevant to the situation, they are valid for any other ship.
2- No they will nto jamm you beceuse thier focus now is jamming logistics and other ewar and tertiarily battleships to reduce DPS. IF they can jam a normal Battleship they achieve same efficiency as jammign a marauder. So unless your fleet is 100% marauders.. its MEANINGLESS! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country
8185
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:48:00 -
[5364] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Spoken by someone who has not paid for a hull in years. The fact that a goon, especially you, are saying publicly that these changes are good, proves to me that they are really awful for the average player.
I pay for all of my ships.
And yes, I, perhaps the biggest fan of the Megathron hull in the galaxy want the Kronos to be terrible... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8185
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:52:00 -
[5365] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
1- irrelevant to the situation, they are valid for any other ship.
I doubt a ship getting webbed at 80km with a Kronos punching holes in it from range will find it irrelevant.
Kagura Nikon wrote: 2- No they will nto jamm you beceuse thier focus now is jamming logistics and other ewar and tertiarily battleships to reduce DPS. IF they can jam a normal Battleship they achieve same efficiency as jammign a marauder. So unless your fleet is 100% marauders.. its MEANINGLESS!
And this is different from every single other fleet because? |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:26:00 -
[5366] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
No one is going to fly a billion ISK subcap hull in PvP when it has to be stationary for a minute to maximize bonuses.
Dreads, pre-tracking nerf Titians ect. A 1 bil price tag isn't that much these days and I don't see why this ship wont be as survivable as any of my other mega hulls. Spoken by someone who has not paid for a hull in years. The fact that a goon, especially you, are saying publicly that these changes are good, proves to me that they are really awful for the average player.
not really.
fact: this one billion isk ship dies really fast to blappy dreads
fact: one only risks dropping blappy dreads when they have super cap dominace
fact: goons are no where close to super cap dominate against PL or NC. so there is no real worry of them dropping dreads on your marauder because they dont want to loose said dreads as the dreads will be worth more then the marauder in the first place. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:35:00 -
[5367] - Quote
so any word from CCP on when version 3.0 will come out? one would presume that a week of testing should give them a good indication where they want to take the ship. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

PavlikX
You are in da lock
99
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:45:00 -
[5368] - Quote
Give to all BSs ability to plan jump trajectory in tactical overlay mode. 2, 3 and even more series of jumps. 100 kms range of each. Anyone who like current jumps will not be disappointed. Others will have posibility to avoid annoying "triangles" with MJD In this case new role bonus to the marauders will be very useful |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1314
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:48:00 -
[5369] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so any word from CCP on when version 3.0 will come out? one would presume that a week of testing should give them a good indication where they want to take the ship.
What, you think they actually read any of the posts in the feedback forum? I was hoping they would, but the complete denial of bring back a web bonus proves they have not.
The Marauders don't need some moronic MjD and mini-dread option. If they had simply said "we are increasing the scan res, and that's it" many players would have been happy. If they gave them T2 resists as well, Marauder users would have been doing cartwheels.
Instead, they nerf the hell out of the effective DPS (drone bays and webs) and make them bricks (dead slow). The EWAR immunity, the smaller sig radius, I would gladly give back for web bonuses.
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4726
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:54:00 -
[5370] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:MeBiatch wrote:so any word from CCP on when version 3.0 will come out? one would presume that a week of testing should give them a good indication where they want to take the ship. What, you think they actually read any of the posts in the feedback forum? I was hoping they would, but the complete denial of bring back a web bonus proves they have not. The Marauders don't need some moronic MjD and mini-dread option. If they had simply said "we are increasing the scan res, and that's it" many players would have been happy. If they gave them T2 resists as well, Marauder users would have been doing cartwheels. Instead, they nerf the hell out of the effective DPS (drone bays and webs) and make them bricks (dead slow). The EWAR immunity, the smaller sig radius, I would gladly give back for web bonuses. It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS. They do listen to our feed back, fortunately they don't listen to yours.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8187
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:57:00 -
[5371] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war.
They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. |

Tragedy
The Creepshow
104
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 19:17:00 -
[5372] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way.
Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 19:57:00 -
[5373] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way. Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions.
The only thing even solo that I would be afraid of is a larger class ship or a medium size gang. Small gangs are going to have to output quite a bit of dps to break the tank. I took out another BS without heat or even using half of one of my ASB's charges. The 137% boots on a single XL ASB is insane with the 75ish% across the board resists in Bastion (2xinvuls). The kill showed he had 2x 1600 plates, eanm, and a damage control, which is a good sized buffer tank. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4732
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:16:00 -
[5374] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Tragedy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way. Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions. The only thing even solo that I would be afraid of is a larger class ship or a medium size gang. Small gangs are going to have to output quite a bit of dps to break the tank. I took out another BS without heat or even using half of one of my ASB's charges. The 137% boots on a single XL ASB is insane with the 75ish% across the board resists in Bastion (2xinvuls). The kill showed he had 2x 1600 plates, eanm, and a damage control, which is a good sized buffer tank. According to Dinsdale you're lucky he was in a BS... if he had been in a frigate you'd have been dead without a web bonus.  To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1315
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:16:00 -
[5375] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls.
Right..The fact that the drone bandwidth is cut by 2/3's is not a nerf in your world. The fact that the dual web's are being nerfed 92% in effectiveness (yeah, speed of a dual webbed target is now 16 times faster) , that doesn't affect DPS either, huh?
And NO ONE will be taking out roaming gangs of these ships, because they are too damn slow. Unless of course, as I stated, you have a Titan or jump bridge network at your disposal. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1315
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:20:00 -
[5376] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way. Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions.
Guess reading is difficult for you. I said I don't want any of the crap they are putting on the ships.
Read up 3 or so posts. If they had increased the scan res and left the rest of the ship alone I would have been happy. I don't want a wrecked ship.
And yeah, I recognize you live in the "PvP is the only thing that matters" bubble, but I live in the Eve universe where the majority of players have to grind for their ISK, and we need a ship class designed for that. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
574
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:20:00 -
[5377] - Quote
Soooo much crying about the pvp viability of a rebalance of a ship that apart from AT was never pvp viable.
IMO, Marauders are much more viable at everything than they used to be.
Those saying they're not any better and/or worse than they are on live.... Are you freaking serious?
Move cap stability Better tank MJD (even awesome in lvl 4s) Less tanking mods = more damage or application mods Ewar immunity More range
Seriously... How are they even remotely as bad as they used to be?
Sure, the hulls themselves aren't that viable, but if you need a fleet ship, just do like everyone does now and use a freaking pirate....
I'm going to be pissed if we lose the awesomeness we have on test cause a few crybabies want an uber pvp ship. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8190
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:29:00 -
[5378] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right..The fact that the drone bandwidth is cut by 2/3's is not a nerf in your world.
The drones that see the most use in most of my mega over the last three years are armour drones I use to rep my own frigs. Most of the time I dont need to launch any combat drones. They arn't important and you get room for two flights of lights which is good enough for my needs.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: The fact that the dual web's are being nerfed 92% in effectiveness (yeah, speed of a dual webbed target is now 16 times faster) , that doesn't affect DPS either, huh?
Again, most of the time the target will deep into null range which is out of range of webs. I do perfectly well in megathrons and navy mega with no webs at all.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: And NO ONE will be taking out roaming gangs of these ships, because they are too damn slow. Unless of course, as I stated, you have a Titan or jump bridge network at your disposal.
I will be taking them out roaming. |

Tragedy
The Creepshow
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:36:00 -
[5379] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Tragedy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way. Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions. Guess reading is difficult for you. I said I don't want any of the crap they are putting on the ships. Read up 3 or so posts. If they had increased the scan res and left the rest of the ship alone I would have been happy. I don't want a wrecked ship. And yeah, I recognize you live in the "PvP is the only thing that matters" bubble, but I live in the Eve universe where the majority of players have to grind for their ISK, and we need a ship class designed for that. Actually I live in reality. A reality where these ships will be used for BOTH pve and pvp. They're good at both already right now. I ran sanctums in kronos and vargur last night, it was awesome. Better then they are now. I played cat and mouse with my friends, mjd'ing away before they could get tackles on me.
Ive read tons of your posts. I get it. You miss your web. These ships have changed, they're far, far better now. I dont think you understand just how powerful the ewar immunity is. Or how good the damage projection is, and tracking.
Ytterbaum already said hes gonna address the drone bay. Still, they dont need much more. You see 1 use for these ships. I'm seeing them able to be used in almost every aspect of gameplay in fun ways. Without the need for a web bonus. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8190
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:43:00 -
[5380] - Quote
Tragedy wrote: I'm seeing them able to be used in almost every aspect of gameplay in fun ways. Without the need for a web bonus.
You need to try a pipebomb fit with the golem, its shockingly funny as is the anti frig golem fitted with rapid lights and neuts/smart bombs. |
|

Tragedy
The Creepshow
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 20:52:00 -
[5381] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tragedy wrote: I'm seeing them able to be used in almost every aspect of gameplay in fun ways. Without the need for a web bonus. You need to try a pipebomb fit with the golem, its shockingly funny as is the anti frig golem fitted with rapid lights and neuts/smart bombs. ...Thats going on the list right now.
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:03:00 -
[5382] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. Right..The fact that the drone bandwidth is cut by 2/3's is not a nerf in your world. The fact that the dual web's are being nerfed 92% in effectiveness (yeah, speed of a dual webbed target is now 16 times faster) , that doesn't affect DPS either, huh? And NO ONE will be taking out roaming gangs of these ships, because they are too damn slow. Unless of course, as I stated, you have a Titan or jump bridge network at your disposal.
You have to factor in that we are likely going to see the speed brought back up on the hulls. You can also MJD 100km every 60 seconds, which can be used tactically to re-position against smaller targets. If I was going to roam with these in a gang, I would bring either one of the new EWAR frigs or any other dedicated platform to bring bonused webs. Why on earth would you have to just bring these in gang for PVP or PVE?
Tactics are going to change more in this patch than any other before it I think just because of the warp speed changes. Frigs and Dessies can warp faster than the larger craft. A Marauder will be able to tank those smaller ships while the rest of the fleet makes it to the engagement area if it is the first ship on grid or the small gang catches the Marauder lagging behind (or groups of other large ships). |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
775
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:08:00 -
[5383] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: ...If I was going to roam with these in a gang, I would bring either one of the new EWAR frigs or any other dedicated platform to bring bonused webs. Why on earth would you have to just bring these in gang for PVP or PVE?...
Don't you see? If a ship can't do everything itself it's just another tool for the nullsec hordes because the rest of us can't figure out how to work in groups outside of incursions. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:14:00 -
[5384] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:TheFace Asano wrote: ...If I was going to roam with these in a gang, I would bring either one of the new EWAR frigs or any other dedicated platform to bring bonused webs. Why on earth would you have to just bring these in gang for PVP or PVE?...
Don't you see? If a ship can't do everything itself it's just another tool for the nullsec hordes because the rest of us can't figure out how to work in groups outside of incursions.
Cool thing is this ship can do quite a bit on its own. It is much different than anything on TQ. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:18:00 -
[5385] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:TheFace Asano wrote: ...If I was going to roam with these in a gang, I would bring either one of the new EWAR frigs or any other dedicated platform to bring bonused webs. Why on earth would you have to just bring these in gang for PVP or PVE?...
Don't you see? If a ship can't do everything itself it's just another tool for the nullsec hordes because the rest of us can't figure out how to work in groups outside of incursions. Cool thing is this ship can do quite a bit on its own. It is much different than anything on TQ. edit: I detect sarcasm
heh. might wanna get your detector tuned up. this is eve. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
776
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:25:00 -
[5386] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:TheFace Asano wrote: ...If I was going to roam with these in a gang, I would bring either one of the new EWAR frigs or any other dedicated platform to bring bonused webs. Why on earth would you have to just bring these in gang for PVP or PVE?...
Don't you see? If a ship can't do everything itself it's just another tool for the nullsec hordes because the rest of us can't figure out how to work in groups outside of incursions. Cool thing is this ship can do quite a bit on its own. It is much different than anything on TQ. edit: I detect sarcasm heh. might wanna get your detector tuned up. this is eve. Nope, I can confirm it's working fine. |

raawe
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:44:00 -
[5387] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:something you wrote on first page
I've read somewhere that you will be doing T3 rebalance, is that true? If it is, god help us all..... Can't believe you are so low on imagination. I would like dev position or at least give community one thing to rebalance.
- we already have dreads, making smaller dreads is stupid
- bastion mode is all wrong atm
- marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too
- they are time consuming to train and expensive, give them something more creative
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8192
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:15:00 -
[5388] - Quote
raawe wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:something you wrote on first page I've read somewhere that you will be doing T3 rebalance, is that true? If it is, god help us all..... Can't believe you are so low on imagination. I would like dev position or at least give community one thing to rebalance.
- we already have dreads, making smaller dreads is stupid
- bastion mode is all wrong atm
- marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too
- they are time consuming to train and expensive, give them something more creative
What exactly is wrong with them? |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:24:00 -
[5389] - Quote
Another question for the testers: Can MWDs be activated while bastion mode is running? Again, since you can't be pointed while in bastion mode, if you can time a MWD cycle to end 2-3 seconds after bastion ends you can leave them with only 2-3 seconds to get a point on you before you enter warp. |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
272
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:28:00 -
[5390] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:raawe wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:something you wrote on first page I've read somewhere that you will be doing T3 rebalance, is that true? If it is, god help us all..... Can't believe you are so low on imagination. I would like dev position or at least give community one thing to rebalance.
- we already have dreads, making smaller dreads is stupid
- bastion mode is all wrong atm
- marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too
- they are time consuming to train and expensive, give them something more creative
What exactly is wrong with them?
They cost a billion isk and everything they could be asked or expected to do, other ships will do better for less. To answer your question, that means everything. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8192
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:34:00 -
[5391] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:baltec1 wrote:raawe wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:something you wrote on first page I've read somewhere that you will be doing T3 rebalance, is that true? If it is, god help us all..... Can't believe you are so low on imagination. I would like dev position or at least give community one thing to rebalance.
- we already have dreads, making smaller dreads is stupid
- bastion mode is all wrong atm
- marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too
- they are time consuming to train and expensive, give them something more creative
What exactly is wrong with them? They cost a billion isk and everything they could be asked or expected to do, other ships will do better for less. To answer your question, that means everything.
They have better range, the best subcap tank, immune to all E-war and a bonus to mjd. Right now they are ripping apart small gangs solo.
|

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
272
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:40:00 -
[5392] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:baltec1 wrote:raawe wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:something you wrote on first page I've read somewhere that you will be doing T3 rebalance, is that true? If it is, god help us all..... Can't believe you are so low on imagination. I would like dev position or at least give community one thing to rebalance.
- we already have dreads, making smaller dreads is stupid
- bastion mode is all wrong atm
- marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too
- they are time consuming to train and expensive, give them something more creative
What exactly is wrong with them? They cost a billion isk and everything they could be asked or expected to do, other ships will do better for less. To answer your question, that means everything. They have better range, the best subcap tank, immune to all E-war and a bonus to mjd. Right now they are ripping apart small gangs solo. I live in Wicked Creek. Come by for a visit, and we'll undock our "small" gang.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8192
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:52:00 -
[5393] - Quote
Quote: I live in Wicked Creek. Come by for a visit, and we'll undock our "small" gang.
Sure thing. I also invite you to come visit us in curse. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 22:59:00 -
[5394] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:baltec1 wrote:What exactly is wrong with them? They cost a billion isk and everything they could be asked or expected to do, other ships will do better for less. To answer your question, that means everything. They have better range, the best subcap tank, immune to all E-war and a bonus to mjd. Right now they are ripping apart small gangs solo. I live in Wicked Creek. Come by for a visit, and we'll undock our "small" gang. While the ripping apart small gangs thing is up for debate, that still leaves the stated advantages of the ship and bastion combo that weren't really countered there. So I guess the question of what regarding those aspects you still find less than sufficient still remains. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 01:14:00 -
[5395] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:raawe wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:something you wrote on first page I've read somewhere that you will be doing T3 rebalance, is that true? If it is, god help us all..... Can't believe you are so low on imagination. I would like dev position or at least give community one thing to rebalance.
- we already have dreads, making smaller dreads is stupid
- bastion mode is all wrong atm
- marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too
- they are time consuming to train and expensive, give them something more creative
What exactly is wrong with them?
We already have Battleships, making smaller battleships is stupid We already have Battlecruisers, making smaller Battlecruisers is stupid We already have Cruisers, making smaller Cruisers is stupid We already have Frigates... We should all fly around in shuttles or noob ships, no other ships in eve!
Quote: bastion mode is all wrong atm
Why?
Quote:marauders are meant to be great at pve, bastion should make them good at pvp too Why? |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 01:28:00 -
[5396] - Quote
And I failed |

Rowan Jak
The Art Of Fail 9th Company
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 01:30:00 -
[5397] - Quote
Why arent Bastion moduals on SiSi Anymore??? |

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
54
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 01:46:00 -
[5398] - Quote
Rowan Jak wrote:Why arent Bastion moduals on SiSi Anymore???
They are, they've just been reasigned a random name for some reason along with a lot of the other new stuff You can find them in the market in weapons upgrades>siege modules called [no messageID: 290003] |

Rowan Jak
The Art Of Fail 9th Company
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 01:49:00 -
[5399] - Quote
ah ok ty |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
272
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 08:54:00 -
[5400] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote: I live in Wicked Creek. Come by for a visit, and we'll undock our "small" gang.
Sure thing. I also invite you to come visit us in curse.
Sure, but I'm not bring a marauder. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 09:05:00 -
[5401] - Quote
All the richer guys might be happy about using this ship in pvp, but i doubt i will see a lot of them.
The following list is from a quote, but is is a good example someone showing benefits, which aren't for pve:
More cap stability- no advantage for any marauder except the paladin
Better tank- in pve u need 10% of the Tank and you only need it because you are pinned down on one spot
MJD (even awesome in lvl 4s)
Less tanking mods = more damage or application mods- NO thats the common crap.My Vargur and the kronos are losing damage and the application is not rising at all for the vargur or the golem with torps. all the free slots do nothing, but forcing me to stay in bastion or be crushed through bad tank.
Ewar immunity- Thats the plus! BUT I fly mostly against Angels and i am not scared of the TPs.
More range[*] NOT for my Vargur and mostly not for my old torp golem. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
186
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 10:27:00 -
[5402] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP  The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move? The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats? The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away? This is an amusingly narrow view of how combat takes place in EVE. Yes, there will be situations where a Marauder component in your fleet will be a poor choice, but not all... not by a long shot.
Marauders are useless in fleets, because the tank will gimp your gank, if it is tanked it will not get shoot till more important stuff is down and it can't even be RRed. People don't bring active tanked Hypes or Mealstorm to fleets, why should they bring a even more expensive ship that can't even get RR? The answer is because again it is pointless. Active tanking is a very small niche in pvp, and balancing the hull around it plus gimping it in any other area that matters makes them overall far more niche than they already where and removes her usefulness in her current niches for the most part on top of it.
Btw the bastion is also very crappy for 99% of the pve stuff, since you don't need that much tank for most stuff and the inability to move plus the speed nerf make them considerable worse, not to mention that bastion is completely useless for RR pve environments like Incs or WH, while the removal of the web bonus and drones really hurts the hull there. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
182
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 11:02:00 -
[5403] - Quote
I'm still confused a bit regarding Bastion, then again I'm only familiar with the Golem on SiSi, did a few spins in null anoms.
* The extra missile speeds helps not waste volleys? * Extra tank seems not to make a difference when you're 100+ KM away. * MJD was useful before to snipe and move, better reset does not really make a difference, I usually stay put until things get a certain distance. If things spawned on top of you, it probably would, but they tend to spawn near their bases.
* Does NPC EWar reach out 150km+? * Would Bastion on a Golem only help to land in the middle of spawns and Torp them to death? * Would it actually tank the 10/10 "Centus Assembly T.P. Co." end Station Ultima EM torps?
I'm not saying Bastion won't be useful, It's just that PvE people were doing fine before Bastion, and I'm not quite sure what Bastion will let them do better that's not re-balanced after the hull changes and the fact you are not moving around anymore.
I can only see some personal niche uses when missioning. As far as PvP, I would not be game to take a bill+ ship out with my crappy combat skills, so I'll stick to cheaper stuff. Less tears that way.
... although they seem fun to go annoy James 315 when used as mining ships. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
273
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 11:39:00 -
[5404] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:While the ripping apart small gangs thing is up for debate, that still leaves the stated advantages of the ship and bastion combo that weren't really countered there. So I guess the question of what regarding those aspects you still find less than sufficient still remains.
- They cost a billion ISK
- 18 seconds to align. That's the same as a hulk. Speed and mobility is king in warfare.
- It gets even better; "ripping apart small gangs", that's in bastion mode, where they are not even moving at all. Of course all small gangs are then going to stop moving as well, just to make things fair?
- The bastion module - one fatal flaw. All its bonuses are defensive. No one wins a fight by defending. I can happily suicide fleets of tackle while getting a cyno and dread into position, and still win the ISK war handsomely.
- MJD? If a marauder uses a MJD, it means it has lost and is running away (which, ultimately, it won't be able to do) and whatever support it had is now dead or dying.
- Did I mention they cost a billion ISK?
I'll give you a case in point: the best (and most expensive) PvP battleship is the Bhaalgorn. In four years I've seen it once in nul-sec. See them all the time in WH's thought. The reason why - the mechanics of WH's severely hamper the ability of FC's to escalate any conflict. Those restraints don't exist in nul-sec or indeed in empire.
I'm sure the salvage will be quite good though. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
725
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 12:00:00 -
[5405] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:While the ripping apart small gangs thing is up for debate, that still leaves the stated advantages of the ship and bastion combo that weren't really countered there. So I guess the question of what regarding those aspects you still find less than sufficient still remains.
- They cost a billion ISK
- 18 seconds to align. That's the same as a hulk. Speed and mobility is king in warfare.
- It gets even better; "ripping apart small gangs", that's in bastion mode, where they are not even moving at all. Of course all small gangs are then going to stop moving as well, just to make things fair?
- The bastion module - one fatal flaw. All its bonuses are defensive. No one wins a fight by defending. I can happily suicide fleets of tackle while getting a cyno and dread into position, and still win the ISK war handsomely.
- MJD? If a marauder uses a MJD, it means it has lost and is running away (which, ultimately, it won't be able to do) and whatever support it had is now dead or dying.
- Did I mention they cost a billion ISK?
I'll give you a case in point: the best (and most expensive) PvP battleship is the Bhaalgorn. In four years I've seen it once in nul-sec. See them all the time in WH's thought. The reason why - the mechanics of WH's severely hamper the ability of FC's to escalate any conflict. Those restraints don't exist in nul-sec or indeed in empire. I'm sure the salvage will be quite good though.
You may want to re-check their current align time.
I also get the strong feeling from this post that you haven't actually flown one on SiSi. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8194
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 12:08:00 -
[5406] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You may want to re-check their current align time.
I also get the strong feeling from this post that you haven't actually flown one on SiSi.
If he has then its only in PvE. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 12:19:00 -
[5407] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You may want to re-check their current align time.
I also get the strong feeling from this post that you haven't actually flown one on SiSi.
If he has then its only in PvE.
The MJD is good for both getting into position and getting out. I am getting pretty good at escaping with it now. I killed a Kronos who was aligning and didn't MJD because I had capped him, he almost made it out while in my Golem. He shouldv'e disengaged sooner. I have made the same mistake several times. Engaged a small gang, they couldn't kill me, but I couldn't get them locked down either, I killed the AF then the legion got out of range while a vaga got under my guns (I was in a vargur). The webs would help in that situation, but then I feel the ship would be too powerful. A dread landed, took a shot, I overheated both ASB's and tanked 2 alphas then got out. It survived if only barely against an AF, a HAC, a T3 and a dread while taking out one of them. That is pretty good. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1316
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 12:28:00 -
[5408] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Tragedy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war. They have many advantages over the t1 hulls. This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way. Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions. Guess reading is difficult for you. I said I don't want any of the crap they are putting on the ships. Read up 3 or so posts. If they had increased the scan res and left the rest of the ship alone I would have been happy. I don't want a wrecked ship. And yeah, I recognize you live in the "PvP is the only thing that matters" bubble, but I live in the Eve universe where the majority of players have to grind for their ISK, and we need a ship class designed for that. Actually I live in reality. A reality where these ships will be used for BOTH pve and pvp. They're good at both already right now. I ran sanctums in kronos and vargur last night, it was awesome. Better then they are now. I played cat and mouse with my friends, mjd'ing away before they could get tackles on me. Ive read tons of your posts. I get it. You miss your web. These ships have changed, they're far, far better now. I dont think you understand just how powerful the ewar immunity is. Or how good the damage projection is, and tracking. Ytterbaum already said hes gonna address the drone bay. Still, they dont need much more. You see 1 use for these ships. I'm seeing them able to be used in almost every aspect of gameplay in fun ways. Without the need for a web bonus.
I have run the ships. And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions. They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.
Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
581
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 13:17:00 -
[5409] - Quote
The cost wil not prevent the usage in PVP. Peopel use far more expensive things commonly. What wil make it not be used is that bastion is a nearly useles module and the marauders are basically LESS powerful than some of the T1 battleships in most pvp scenarios. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 14:31:00 -
[5410] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have run the ships. And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions. They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.
Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.
Uhh, I think most of the people that like and are defending this build are those that like the solo aspects of this ship.
I personally love that I can run lvl 4 missions with no problem, and there are a lot of people that love the potential with these ships in solo pve.
That said, CCP has already stated that they nerfed the hulls too much. It's possible that the base hulls will be made usable again. |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1318
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:09:00 -
[5411] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have run the ships. And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions. They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.
Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.
Uhh, I think most of the people that like and are defending this build are those that like the solo aspects of this ship. I personally love that I can run lvl 4 missions with no problem, and there are a lot of people that love the potential with these ships in solo pve. That said, CCP has already stated that they nerfed the hulls too much. It's possible that the base hulls will be made usable again.
Yeah, but you could run L4's solo in them BEFORE, and all these changes do is allow you to overtank the ship, while wrecking your effective DPS. Yes, the immunity against jamming is nice against Gurista's, and even the immunity against TD from Sansha's helps with the L4 effectiveness. But all the nerfs on these ships outweigh the buffs in effective DPS, which it all about. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Riddlez Utrigas
Galaxos Schild Schmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:41:00 -
[5412] - Quote
What about giving the MJD the ability to set the distance we want to jump in between of 10km to 100km to compensate the lower Speed of the marauders? Would be great in pve ;) |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:46:00 -
[5413] - Quote
interesting how the high sec guy is saying the ship is useless in pvp due to cost...
well i have tested the ship and its only counter is dreads... and guess what you cant use dreads in high sec...
so really the marauder in bastion will be a beast for high sec pvp.
edit:
the only point i agree with dinsdale is the lower dps.
honestly i would like to see either an improved damage bonus on the ships... like the kronos getting a rate of fire over damage bonus.
or give a 10% damage bonus while in bastion mode. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

baltec1
Bat Country
8199
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:49:00 -
[5414] - Quote
Riddlez Utrigas wrote:What about giving the MJD the ability to set the distance we want to jump in between of 10km to 100km to compensate the lower Speed of the marauders? Would be great in pve ;)
That is why the wont do it. It would also give a very powerful tool in pvp as well. It would be just too good. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8199
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:55:00 -
[5415] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:interesting how the high sec guy is saying the ship is useless in pvp due to cost...
well i have tested the ship and its only counter is dreads... and guess what you cant use dreads in high sec...
so really the marauder in bastion will be a beast for high sec pvp.
edit:
the only point i agree with dinsdale is the lower dps.
honestly i would like to see either an improved damage bonus on the ships... like the kronos getting a rate of fire over damage bonus.
or give a 10% damage bonus while in bastion mode.
Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:55:00 -
[5416] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Riddlez Utrigas wrote:What about giving the MJD the ability to set the distance we want to jump in between of 10km to 100km to compensate the lower Speed of the marauders? Would be great in pve ;) That is why the wont do it. It would also give a very powerful tool in pvp as well. It would be just too good.
After playing with it on the test server, it's really easy to hit a gate in two jumps.
All you have to do is triangulate which you can do by eye, and be pretty freaking close.
I did recon 3-3 like this in the gas cloud.
landed 56km from gate upon warp in..
MJD'd out, then to the gate.
Took about 2min 30 sec.. Way faster than I could have flown to the gate, even with a MWD. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:57:00 -
[5417] - Quote
Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:
1) Unnerf the hull (speed, agility and base hp)
2) Move bastion resist bonus onto hull.
3) Add low (kronos/paladin) / mid (vargur/golem) slot for more tank/gank.
4) Make the hull repair bonus also affect rr bonus (this may become to OP with resists on hull...)
Thats it. Points 3 and 4 are not even that needed but would be nice. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:58:00 -
[5418] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.
welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin
moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs.
honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference.
that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 16:02:00 -
[5419] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:
1) Unnerf the hull (speed, agility and base hp)
2) Move bastion resist bonus onto hull.
3) Add low (kronos/paladin) / mid (vargur/golem) slot for more tank/gank.
4) Make the hull repair bonus also affect rr bonus (this may become to OP with resists on hull...)
Thats it. Points 3 and 4 are not even that needed but would be nice.
1. yeah sure
2. no. most i would agree to is giving the ships the old "field command ship" tech II resistance and then the bastion mod getting standard DCU II resists for armor and shield but remains the 30% for hull
3. yeah i gree with this. 8 high slots is too much each ship would greatly benifit from an extra mid or low
4. i have been asking for the internal rep bonus work on external incomming reps for years... not going to happen There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 16:03:00 -
[5420] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote: Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.
welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs. honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference. that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to.
I'm not gonna lie, more dps is always nice, but at the same time it may break the ships and CCP might mistakingly nerf the wrong things to fix it... |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 16:05:00 -
[5421] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote: Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.
welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs. honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference. that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to. I'm not gonna lie, more dps is always nice, but at the same time it may break the ships and CCP might mistakingly nerf the wrong things to fix it...
i would not mind the repair bonus being reduced to 5% per level or conversely the bastion repair bonus being reduced to 75% so the ship would not be op. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

baltec1
Bat Country
8201
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 16:07:00 -
[5422] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote: Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.
welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs. honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference. that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to.
Just because its a t2 ship doesn't mean it should get more damage. In practice its the same firepower as t1 hulls as most of the time you either don't have drones out or if you do they are almost always lights. With the bonuses the ship does effectively get a damage bonus in application at longer ranges than the t1 ship. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 16:20:00 -
[5423] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:
1) Unnerf the hull (speed, agility and base hp)
2) Move bastion resist bonus onto hull.
3) Add low (kronos/paladin) / mid (vargur/golem) slot for more tank/gank.
4) Make the hull repair bonus also affect rr bonus (this may become to OP with resists on hull...)
Thats it. Points 3 and 4 are not even that needed but would be nice. 2. no. most i would agree to is giving the ships the old "field command ship" tech II resistance and then the bastion mod getting standard DCU II resists for armor and shield but remains the 30% for hull
Hmm, I don't quite understand you. You would like T2 resist more? Problem is that they suck for Paladin and Vargur in Level 4 missions. And since most pilots flying marauders use them for lvl 4 than would **** them off (and rightly so). Having a high omni resists should be the signature mark for marauders. But not linked to bastion because it sucks on incursions and wh. From my testing on Sisi u wont even need a bastion for most lvl 4 missions (thats for Paladin who does not need the extra range - don't know about others...) |

Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 16:54:00 -
[5424] - Quote
Maruaders need to hull bonus to reduce MJD spool up time to 0 or near instant. That way I can MJD right as bastion ends. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:04:00 -
[5425] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:
Uhm, they're incredible in WHs, since WH mechanics make it hard to blob them and break the tank. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:12:00 -
[5426] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about: Uhm, they're incredible in WHs, since WH mechanics make it hard to blob them and break the tank.
As a class 5 wh citizen I would disagree.
1) PvE: since u can't get rr u are dead in 10 sec against capital spawn sleepers.
2) PvP: a gang of 20+ T3 and Commands will eat your tank instantly. Hell, they may even alpha you. Also a lone dread will just obliterate any number of marauders |

baltec1
Bat Country
8202
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:25:00 -
[5427] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote: 2) PvP: a gang of 20+ T3 and Commands will eat your tank instantly. Hell, they may even alpha you. Also a lone dread will just obliterate any number of marauders
What makes you think you should have an easy time taking on 20+ T3 ships or a dread (which wont get dropped on you outside of sisi) solo? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:29:00 -
[5428] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: 2) PvP: a gang of 20+ T3 and Commands will eat your tank instantly. Hell, they may even alpha you. Also a lone dread will just obliterate any number of marauders
What makes you think you should have an easy time taking on 20+ T3 ships or a dread (which wont get dropped on you outside of sisi) solo?
Uhh, yeah... Isn't anything dead if you drop 20+ t3 and command on it? How does this make the Marauder any weaker? |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:45:00 -
[5429] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: 2) PvP: a gang of 20+ T3 and Commands will eat your tank instantly. Hell, they may even alpha you. Also a lone dread will just obliterate any number of marauders
What makes you think you should have an easy time taking on 20+ T3 ships or a dread (which wont get dropped on you outside of sisi) solo?
Coz my T3 or command will get rr and marauder wont...? A dread wont be dropped on me? Man you clearly have no idea about wh warfare... |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:48:00 -
[5430] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote: 2) PvP: a gang of 20+ T3 and Commands will eat your tank instantly. Hell, they may even alpha you. Also a lone dread will just obliterate any number of marauders
What makes you think you should have an easy time taking on 20+ T3 ships or a dread (which wont get dropped on you outside of sisi) solo? Coz my T3 or command will get rr and marauder wont...? A dread wont be dropped on me? Man you clearly have no idea about wh warfare... Has it accrued to you that they'r not ment to. If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8203
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 17:51:00 -
[5431] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Coz my T3 or command will get rr and marauder wont...? A dread wont be dropped on me? Man you clearly have no idea about wh warfare...
They arnt a big fleet ship and the vast bulk of space will not see a dread deployed on a 1 bil BS. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:26:00 -
[5432] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have run the ships. And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions. They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.
Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.
Uhh, I think most of the people that like and are defending this build are those that like the solo aspects of this ship. I personally love that I can run lvl 4 missions with no problem, and there are a lot of people that love the potential with these ships in solo pve. That said, CCP has already stated that they nerfed the hulls too much. It's possible that the base hulls will be made usable again.
Joe, to be honest, 95% of your satisfaction with the new Golem is because of the switch to cruise missiles. Go on TQ now and refit your Golem to cruise (you can put on MJD if you want since you seem to like it) and you'll find it performs just as well. Tanks everything and kills everything no problem. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
175
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:29:00 -
[5433] - Quote
I've read a few of the threads here but I'd like to just address the changes and provide my input. CCP...what hell were you thinking? I can't begin to even think of where to start, but since i must lets just focus on generalizations.
You have 4 ships here that granted fly and perform differently, but are completely out of balance with each other. It's almost alien to be honest. The golem is keeping its TP bonus while the paladin and kronos lose web bonus.
Let's focus on one particular ship, the paladin for instance. Traditionally the paladin has mainly been seen as a pve only ship and there are a couple reason for this but the primary of which is just price alone. I would be more enticed to fly a T3 ship into pvp than a paladin keeping in mind that a T3 can get pretty far up there in price. At least with a T3 I get flexibility. Granted T2s SHOULD be specialized; however, you seem to have approached it wrong here. You have black ops that are quite stealthy and you have marauders which you could have made quite great with insanely high DPS.
To put it in perspective you would have black ops doing less dps than a marauder and than the marauder doing far more than a T1 or black ops...similar to the way T2 ammo works in relation to T1 ammo. Anti-ship missiles hit harder but lack distance, long range lack dps but shoot further, and T1 ammo is about average of the two. Instead, you have turn the marauder into nothing more than a locked down bucket of bolts that is made to be a tank.
Bastion mode is a nice thought process but what is going to win it for marauders isn't sitting still tanking the **** out of something poorly, its going to be ripping T1 BSes, T1, and T2 BCs to shreds. Essentially you now have a ship that sits completely still for 1 min (keeping in mind most smaller engagements rarely go passed 2 min).
For the life of me I can't see the need to put a MJD bonus on them either. They are bulky battleships that move slow. Granted you can use MJDs tactically effective, but that is mostly in defensive stances. Assuming you are fighting a couple of cruisers or frigs, lets say you MJD out to 100km. Now you can snip and blap yes? Absolutely not. Those frigs are going to burn in on your ass, and if you are a golem you're screwed as straight and fast is the best way to avoid missile dmg. You put yourself in Bastion mode at that point and now you are stuck for one min, assuming you survive the minute and a cruiser or frig scrams you...your MJD is now useless.
Essentially you turned marauders into sniping battleships that cant move for a minute, its insane. Not to mention if you lose your drones in a pally then you are truly ****** as you no longer get that web bonus.
There are three ships that use those types of mods and makes them unable to move carriers, dreads, and rorqual. All of which can have INSANELY higher HP than a marauder ever will. I appreciate the fact you are trying to close the gap between capitals and subcaps but the mod is a bit ridiculous. It wouldn't be nearly as bad without the web bonus. If you want to keep bastion mode great, but to completely stop a ship to use it is a bit under-powered. Perhaps a slower rate of travel while it is active ( a speed penalty if you will) like non-covert ops cloaks work. Slow the speed to maybe 1/2 or 2/3rds of max velocity without the mod on.
It almost seems counter productive to have a module that gets you 100km out which implies an agile battleship yet another module that completely stops you. Its almost like putting MWD bonuses on a carrier or dread and have the triage and siege mods respectively....doesnt make since.
So my suggestions would be allow the marauders to be more mobile with bastion on, slap the web bonuses back on the kronos and pally...i believe the Vargur has turret tracking (not sure if that is removed). To be honest you killed the drone capacity on marauders and you take away their tracking and web bonus...where does the anti-frigate defense kick in? I mean its ok sort of if you have a complete fleet supporting you...but to be honest T1 battleships can defend themselves better than a bloody marauder.
It seems you guys once again have tried to push changes out and you did a great job notifying us in advance...but you failed in following through, you decide to completely change it and remove the webs a month before an expansion is released? That will be what really sells it for me will be the web. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1320
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:35:00 -
[5434] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:MeBiatch wrote:baltec1 wrote: Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.
welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs. honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference. that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to. I'm not gonna lie, more dps is always nice, but at the same time it may break the ships and CCP might mistakingly nerf the wrong things to fix it...
Just leave the effective DPS as is. That means leaving the drone bay alone, and the webbing
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
578
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:36:00 -
[5435] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have run the ships. And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions. They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.
Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.
Uhh, I think most of the people that like and are defending this build are those that like the solo aspects of this ship. I personally love that I can run lvl 4 missions with no problem, and there are a lot of people that love the potential with these ships in solo pve. That said, CCP has already stated that they nerfed the hulls too much. It's possible that the base hulls will be made usable again. Joe, to be honest, 95% of your satisfaction with the new Golem is because of the switch to cruise missiles. Go on TQ now and refit your Golem to cruise (you can put on MJD if you want since you seem to like it) and you'll find it performs just as well. Tanks everything and kills everything no problem.
Oh yes, turn it around so that it appears the ship doesn't suck cause now cruise missiles are better...
Do cruise missiles getting buffed help the Golem? Of course it does
However, I still can't fly one in at least 50% of Caldari missions due to jams. You can't fly them in at least 50% of Gallente missions due to damps. If you fly in Minmatar space, you get death by target painter. If you fly in Amarr space, you get death by neut.
There is no reason why anyone should consider the marauders on TQ better than what is provided with bastion.
Better range, better tank, ewar immunity, awesome MJD CD time.
Even with being locked down by Bastion, these ships still have a much better chance of survival in both pve and pvp than they have EVER had before.
If you don't believe this, you're simply pushing for an uber pvp ship. These ships have been pve focused since they were designed, and CCP knows damn good and well that if they change them to pvp focus, the forums with burn with rage and so will Jita... again...
If you don't like them, THEN DON'T FLY THEM!!! You have tons of other ships to choose from if you want a pvp ship....
You want a ship comperable to a pirate ship, then fly a freaking pirate ship... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:42:00 -
[5436] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:
1) Unnerf the hull (speed, agility and base hp)
2) Move bastion resist bonus onto hull.
3) Add low (kronos/paladin) / mid (vargur/golem) slot for more tank/gank.
4) Make the hull repair bonus also affect rr bonus (this may become to OP with resists on hull...)
Thats it. Points 3 and 4 are not even that needed but would be nice. 2. no. most i would agree to is giving the ships the old "field command ship" tech II resistance and then the bastion mod getting standard DCU II resists for armor and shield but remains the 30% for hull Hmm, I don't quite understand you. You would like T2 resist more? Problem is that they suck for Paladin and Vargur in Level 4 missions. And since most pilots flying marauders use them for lvl 4 than would **** them off (and rightly so). Having a high omni resists should be the signature mark for marauders. But not linked to bastion because it sucks on incursions and wh. From my testing on Sisi u wont even need a bastion for most lvl 4 missions (thats for Paladin who does not need the extra range - don't know about others...)
the 30% outside of bastion mode would make the bastion module obsolete as it's arguable the most most powerful bonus it gets.
moreover allot of people like tech ii resists as it makes omni tanks rather easy as there are only two hole to fill.
also afaik thermal is the most used damage type for npc almost always being primary or secondary damage type. So I fail to see giving field command tech ii resist would hurt the ship. If anything it would make fitting a high tesist tank easier and give the ship good resists outside of bastion mode.
if you have an old version of eft compare the resist profile of an astarte to the sisi knronos in Bastion mode.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:46:00 -
[5437] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).
THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.
Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvP  The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move? The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats? The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away? This is an amusingly narrow view of how combat takes place in EVE. Yes, there will be situations where a Marauder component in your fleet will be a poor choice, but not all... not by a long shot. Marauders are useless in fleets, because the tank will gimp your gank, if it is tanked it will not get shoot till more important stuff is down and it can't even be RRed. People don't bring active tanked Hypes or Mealstorm to fleets, why should they bring a even more expensive ship that can't even get RR? The answer is because again it is pointless. Active tanking is a very small niche in pvp, and balancing the hull around it plus gimping it in any other area that matters makes them overall far more niche than they already where and removes her usefulness in her current niches for the most part on top of it. Btw the bastion is also very crappy for 99% of the pve stuff, since you don't need that much tank for most stuff and the inability to move plus the speed nerf make them considerable worse, not to mention that bastion is completely useless for RR pve environments like Incs or WH, while the removal of the web bonus and drones really hurts the hull there.
Quote for greater Justice.
Could not quote it often enough :(
anyway - CCP will notice what they are doing with them half a decade later, so there are still hopes..
|

Zach meii
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:47:00 -
[5438] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:My thoughts: When they were introduced after Trinity, the purpose of the marauder class battleships was PvE, and PvE only. The high price, the horrible sig radius, and terrible sensor strength; all for the purpose to make them useless in combat (with the notable exception of some Alliance Tournements.)That was their role, and since then, they have done their job, when and where expected.
So I fail to understand CCP's current charge in trying to force these adequately preforming ships into new or additional roles, a move which looks dangerously like it will end with these ships trying to multi-task, but end up preforming in none. If I want to field a billion ISK ship, I'll bring my carrier. Capital tank, capital dps, and capital fleet.
My golem exterminates rats, and it works just fine.
Sorry to say it ccp - and the rest of you guys
But he has a point. _ THE animations look cool,. don't get us (the player base) wrong..
But why not remove the *bastion* module, and just give the marauder the bastion mode.. *similar to jump bridging on BlOps*
Slow the ship heaps, (my idea is 87.5% base with 4-5% reduction per skill level) disable prop mod, eg.. mjd, mwd, ab..
READ: **reduce** the effectiveness of ALL Incomming EW - Friendly or not.. Isolate the ship Chance to jam reduce 70% - or more RR Effectiveness to the same equivalent as Armor resist % *for that balance* Keep the Local rep bonus as they are. . . - Maybe even buff them *or the reload times for Assisted Reppers* - Incapable of jumping/gating/warping etc.. *weapons timer honestly?*
If your going to take their ability to salvage/loot the field and operate their Solo Operational Capacity, They are meant to be sustainable in hostile combat areas.. Like Advance Guard.
Right?? i mean thats the description. says so right on the ship.. So if this is such a badass ship ( Hold up let me explain where i'm going.. I've been making plans to use these with boosters.. and their just REdiculiously Op... ) Remove the ships fleet bonus's - Atleast while in bastion. . or this ***** just crazy.. - there i said it.. Give it Something to make it a true marauder, Pillaging Raping that whole Nordic traditional Essence.
Don't make them 0.0 Gardeners of the Rats. Make them something people want to use on frontline because they are Fully awesome.. Because they Are Hell raising.
Disable Bastion in Highsec - let the highsec pos's continue to feel safe - And let the lvl4 mission bots *ahem* people be happy doing what their doing - driving This economy.
Basically ..........................
Marauders Bastion mode should be the Warp core of the ship exposed to space Venting radiation arround the local gravity centre *your marauder* Making it damn near impossible to effect systems on that ship *friendly or Hostile* Being a warp core, it influences gravity ergo More power heavier ship, using the power from that part of your ship to increase other stats - eg Guns -sensor to maintain target lock through the intense radiation- Shield/Armor and Capacitor
--Bastion shouldn't be a *module* but a skill, Like Jumping on a BlOps. --Massive reduction in Speed 70-80% --Massive reduction on EW or Remote Logistics *including sensory ew*
Huge Increase in Capacitor Charge and Recharge rate - Increases in all Offensive systems *Eg Drone Bandwidth and gun damage and projection* target painter effectiveness etc... etc.. larger drone bays. . .
Excerpt from the Kronos - "Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines." - That requires new flights of drones...
Make them the Hulks of eve, chew up and spit out all lesser foe.
Sig bonus to webber / tp effectiveness.. bad on frigs *not toally ineffective* but stops battleships in their tracks..
I mean this is in 4 hours of reading this Thread.. and talking to other players..
Its nice you realise Marauders should live up too their keep sake.. but the animation is about the only Cool thing your doing right now..
So +4 for the art team but No Kudos for the rest of it so far.. Maybe look up the meaning of Marauder. and envision what the pinnacle of Gate faring Technology in new eden should be...
As Always fly safe.. i'll be seeing you out there.. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 19:09:00 -
[5439] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Oh yes, turn it around so that it appears the ship doesn't suck cause now cruise missiles are better...
Do cruise missiles getting buffed help the Golem? Of course it does
However, I still can't fly one in at least 50% of Caldari missions due to jams. You can't fly them in at least 50% of Gallente missions due to damps. If you fly in Minmatar space, you get death by target painter. If you fly in Amarr space, you get death by neut.
There is no reason why anyone should consider the marauders on TQ better than what is provided with bastion.
Better range, better tank, ewar immunity, awesome MJD CD time.
Even with being locked down by Bastion, these ships still have a much better chance of survival in both pve and pvp than they have EVER had before.
If you don't believe this, you're simply pushing for an uber pvp ship. These ships have been pve focused since they were designed, and CCP knows damn good and well that if they change them to pvp focus, the forums with burn with rage and so will Jita... again...
If you don't like them, THEN DON'T FLY THEM!!! You have tons of other ships to choose from if you want a pvp ship....
You want a ship comperable to a pirate ship, then fly a freaking pirate ship...
Not sure where you're coming from here. I am a 100% PVE player, I could care less about Marauder PVP viability. I am flying my Golem in Amarr space RIGHT NOW and I could care less about neuts. Why? Because I don't use an XL booster that sucks my cap dry in 1 min and I can just kite/tank with perm AB running.
Better range? I don't need to shoot 300 km with cruise missiles. Better tank? Sure, but cruise golem tanked perfectly fine already. Your problem was you were using torps (to be frank I tanked fine when I was using torps too...) MJD CD time is nice, but most of the time you can MJD out, kill everything with cruises, then MJD back to gate already. You don't clear rooms in less than 3 min unless you have "god-mode kill everything button" anyway, so the current 3 min MJD CD is perfectly fine.
What I want is for my Marauder to fly the way it does currently (loot as I go), not be nerfed for a Bastion module that is extremely niche in its use.
My point to you is that you should go on TQ, refit your Golem with Cruise and MJD, and see for yourself that all your happiness about the SiSi version already exists on TQ. Bastion just slows you down. The saving grace is the e-war immunity, which is probably the only reason I would ever turn on Bastion. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
578
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 19:18:00 -
[5440] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Oh yes, turn it around so that it appears the ship doesn't suck cause now cruise missiles are better...
Do cruise missiles getting buffed help the Golem? Of course it does
However, I still can't fly one in at least 50% of Caldari missions due to jams. You can't fly them in at least 50% of Gallente missions due to damps. If you fly in Minmatar space, you get death by target painter. If you fly in Amarr space, you get death by neut.
There is no reason why anyone should consider the marauders on TQ better than what is provided with bastion.
Better range, better tank, ewar immunity, awesome MJD CD time.
Even with being locked down by Bastion, these ships still have a much better chance of survival in both pve and pvp than they have EVER had before.
If you don't believe this, you're simply pushing for an uber pvp ship. These ships have been pve focused since they were designed, and CCP knows damn good and well that if they change them to pvp focus, the forums with burn with rage and so will Jita... again...
If you don't like them, THEN DON'T FLY THEM!!! You have tons of other ships to choose from if you want a pvp ship....
You want a ship comperable to a pirate ship, then fly a freaking pirate ship...
Not sure where you're coming from here. I am a 100% PVE player, I could care less about Marauder PVP viability. I am flying my Golem in Amarr space RIGHT NOW and I could care less about neuts. Why? Because I don't use an XL booster that sucks my cap dry in 1 min and I can just kite/tank with perm AB running. Better range? I don't need to shoot 300 km with cruise missiles. Better tank? Sure, but cruise golem tanked perfectly fine already. Your problem was you were using torps (to be frank I tanked fine when I was using torps too...) MJD CD time is nice, but most of the time you can MJD out, kill everything with cruises, then MJD back to gate already. You don't clear rooms in less than 3 min unless you have "god-mode kill everything button" anyway, so the current 3 min MJD CD is perfectly fine. What I want is for my Marauder to fly the way it does currently (loot as I go), not be nerfed for a Bastion module that is extremely niche in its use. My point to you is that you should go on TQ, refit your Golem with Cruise and MJD, and see for yourself that all your happiness about the SiSi version already exists on TQ. Bastion just slows you down. The saving grace is the e-war immunity, which is probably the only reason I would ever turn on Bastion.
CCP has plans to revert some of the nerfs to the hulls.
I'm hopeful that the nerf to velocity with be removed.
If this is the case, then your AB fit will be just as viable as it is on live. You may have less EHP if they don't revert those nerfs, but in a ship that focuses on active tanking, it doesn't make much difference.
However, bastion is allowing these ships to do what they couldn't do prior to this change, which is fight any type of e-war. |
|

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 19:30:00 -
[5441] - Quote
Agreed, I'm actually pretty neutral about this change. Just that I noticed that you seem to be so excited about it and I wanted to point out that the only thing you are getting out of your Golem's Bastion is really e-war immunity (and a slight cap nerf). Everything else you can already do on TQ, that's all I'm saying. You can't give accurate feedback if you're essentially missing an iteration step in your experience with the ship, that being the Cruise Golem.
I don't deny that e-war immunity is really nice in missions, but everything else... meh. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 19:31:00 -
[5442] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
Coz my T3 or command will get rr and marauder wont...? A dread wont be dropped on me? Man you clearly have no idea about wh warfare...
They arnt a big fleet ship and the vast bulk of space will not see a dread deployed on a 1 bil BS.
Ok I agree. You wont deploy a dread to kill a lone marauder. But you also wont solo pvp in a maruder in a WH. And when a fleet is present a capital escalation is like 50% possible. Then those marauders become a primary for a dread.
Besides I believe that their PvP use in unlikely anyway. When I said about WH I meant PvE and for high-end sleepers they will be useless without high resists outside bastion. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
578
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 20:32:00 -
[5443] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Agreed, I'm actually pretty neutral about this change. Just that I noticed that you seem to be so excited about it and I wanted to point out that the only thing you are getting out of your Golem's Bastion is really e-war immunity (and a slight cap nerf). Everything else you can already do on TQ, that's all I'm saying. You can't give accurate feedback if you're essentially missing an iteration step in your experience with the ship, that being the Cruise Golem.
I don't deny that e-war immunity is really nice in missions, but everything else... meh.
Well, see I have been playing with it quite a bit. WHile the cap nerf sucks, at the same time, the fact that I don't have to use as much cap to keep myself up is actually pretty substantial in bastion.
I carry a cap booster on my fit, but since I've been testing it, I've only had to use it once when my shield booster wouldn't stop running.
Basically, bastion and MJD has been nothing but better in the way I run missions.
Hopefully they're revert the speed nerfs and you'll be able to run missions the way you do, and you'll have bastion as an emergency button. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
578
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 20:35:00 -
[5444] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:
Coz my T3 or command will get rr and marauder wont...? A dread wont be dropped on me? Man you clearly have no idea about wh warfare...
They arnt a big fleet ship and the vast bulk of space will not see a dread deployed on a 1 bil BS. Ok I agree. You wont deploy a dread to kill a lone marauder. But you also wont solo pvp in a maruder in a WH. And when a fleet is present a capital escalation is like 50% possible. Then those marauders become a primary for a dread. Besides I believe that their PvP use in unlikely anyway. When I said about WH I meant PvE and for high-end sleepers they will be useless without high resists outside bastion.
Agreed.
Odds are the marauder won't be used for WH pvp, HOWEVER, the way it is right now, most people don't use their pve ship in pvp cause it's typically a lot more blingy and they don't have anything to fall back on if they lose that ship.
Now, these ships can be that blinged out ship that you use for pve, but not pvp. If you do manage to get caught out in that ship, well, you have a better chance of survival than you do in a Marauder right now. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
301
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 22:27:00 -
[5445] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Hopefully they're revert the speed nerfs and you'll be able to run missions the way you do, and you'll have bastion as an emergency button. At this stage in the game, how realistic is it that they'll look at speed or sensor strength? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
578
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 22:41:00 -
[5446] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Hopefully they're revert the speed nerfs and you'll be able to run missions the way you do, and you'll have bastion as an emergency button. At this stage in the game, how realistic is it that they'll look at speed or sensor strength?
Dunno about sensors, but CCP did mention a few pages back that they are aware they may have over nerfed the hulls. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 23:02:00 -
[5447] - Quote
I did some testing on SiSi, solo played lvl5 mordus headhunters with my a Vargur.
You know what bugged me most guys? My ship was flying with 123m/s intead of 160+ :( Well, I wasn't flying that fast anyway, why nerf it? :s
Do I suppose to mjd there and there all the time? What if I don't fit mjd? Why penaltize ? |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 23:03:00 -
[5448] - Quote
Joe as the main cheerleader for this change vs the twenty or so that seem to still harbor reservations about this marauder change,
Have you been using a TQ cruise Golem? to test against the Sisi Bastion Cruise Golem? or are you only testing the Bastion golem?
Seemingly Everything you are praising about the Bastion module seems to be already available on the ship ingame, but not tied to such severe penalties.
Currently the SIsi marauder performs much worse out of bastion then the TQ does, and has such drawbacks while in bastion that there is little to no reason for me to continue using it when there are similar viable options for mission running that do not require me to be such a huge stationary target.
Remember that there is going to be a change in alignment and warp as well as the lower base alignments added to the ship hulls. they will be significantly slower in mission completion times vs t3, when travel time from mission acceptance is also included.
For PVP I cant think of any situation where i would want to be anchored in a 1 bil isk ship with no rr " Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again."
basically you are either rooted till they get the dps to overwhelm you, or you are exploding trying to run. Once out of bastion your ship hull is the same as t1 bs.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 23:05:00 -
[5449] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote: Currently the SIsi marauder performs much worse out of bastion then the TQ does, and has such drawbacks while in bastion that there is little to no reason for me to continue using it when there are similar viable options for mission running that do not require me to be such a huge stationary target.
This. If not going for bastion and mjd, it STILL feels nerfed... Bah... My previous post over this one is the same :/
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 23:23:00 -
[5450] - Quote
The most ridicilus result brings up a question: Why this thing needs to be stopped in order to play it in an enjoyable fashion? I feel like a f$#ng wow mage with an old blink glyph that further blinks everywhere and start casting stuff in order to do dps.
Mjd there, get into bastion, bam bam bam, enemy is getting close!, so get stuff together, mjd other place, hit bastion again bam bam bam...
I mean, what the...? |
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 23:36:00 -
[5451] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:The most ridicilus result brings up a question: Why this thing needs to be stopped in order to play it in an enjoyable fashion? I feel like a f$#ng wow mage with an old blink glyph that further blinks everywhere and start casting stuff in order to do dps.
Mjd there, get into bastion, bam bam bam, enemy is getting close!, so get stuff together, mjd other place, hit bastion again bam bam bam...
I mean, what the...?
Edit: Even it is not told by anyone, there are very strong bold border fences that was put around playstyle of a Marauder, which forces player into the bastion mode in order to do "something".
Well, you can still apply same without going into bastion, but it is harder now, especially for those don't want to adapt bastion playstyle.
Even worse, those who hate bastion playstyle, will hate using marauder even more, because its regular playstyle is nerfed and became more boring.
I know some guys that didn't read my older posts will come up with "use prop mod" idea, which would be an excellent and yet mindless thing to do...
lmao wow-eve leap frogging? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 23:52:00 -
[5452] - Quote
Octoven wrote:[quote=Shivanthar]lmao wow-eve leap frogging?
Good start with that line. Go on, maybe one day you will accomplish understanding whole picture. A criticizm like this only shows that there really really people who doesn't have anything to say about subject, and rather watching what other people says and if not understood what is typed correctly, throw an "other side is an idiot" criticism. Job is done. The Oscar reward is going to you.
- Have you ever done a mission with a marauder? - Do you see any problems about it in TQ? - Do you find any ideas to get it enhanced? - Did you bring those ideas into discussion? - Did you read about the current state of marauders that devs trying to put into the game? - Did you criticize or support any ideas of the current state of the marauders? - Did you test marauder's state on sisi? - Did you read my previous comments?
Maybe, at least, you will try to read and understand, before making your most valuable posts again. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
179
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 00:04:00 -
[5453] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Octoven wrote:lmao wow-eve leap frogging? Good start with that line. Go on, maybe one day you will accomplish understanding whole picture. A criticizm like this only shows that there really are people who doesn't have anything to say about subject, and rather watching what other people says and if not understood what is typed correctly, throw an "other side is an idiot" criticism. Job is done. The Oscar reward is going to you. - Have you ever done a mission with a marauder? - Do you see any problems about it in TQ? - Do you find any ideas to get it enhanced? - Did you bring those ideas into discussion? - Did you read about the current state of marauders that devs trying to put into the game? - Did you criticize or support any ideas of the current state of the marauders? - Did you test marauder's state on sisi? - Did you read my previous comments? Maybe, at least, you will try to read and understand, before making your most valuable posts again. Edit: It really hurts to see someone like you, made a lot of discussion about the subject, came up with that post. Maybe you're bored?
A. Yes I have ran a mission with a marauder, B. I see no issues in TQ, C. D. E. F. G. read my previous post about one page back. I was by no means criticizing your comment, I WAS in fact agreeing that the new marauder changes are ridiculous. However, it seems clear to me you have not read any of MY past comments. Thanks for making a well informed presumptuous comment. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 00:14:00 -
[5454] - Quote
Octoven wrote: A. Yes I have ran a mission with a marauder, B. I see no issues in TQ, C. D. E. F. G. read my previous post about one page back. I was by no means criticizing your comment, I WAS in fact agreeing that the new marauder changes are ridiculous. However, it seems clear to me you have not read any of MY past comments. Thanks for making a well informed presumptuous comment.
Sorry for my previous harsh input, I've just came from testing and have a keyboard rage right now. But yes, I read your previous comments. The point is that I don't understand English urban dictionary very-well, **** happens sometimes because of this.
Not meant any harm to you, take my apologies ;) |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
179
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 00:28:00 -
[5455] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Octoven wrote: A. Yes I have ran a mission with a marauder, B. I see no issues in TQ, C. D. E. F. G. read my previous post about one page back. I was by no means criticizing your comment, I WAS in fact agreeing that the new marauder changes are ridiculous. However, it seems clear to me you have not read any of MY past comments. Thanks for making a well informed presumptuous comment.
Sorry for my previous harsh input, I've just come from testing and have a keyboard rage right now. But yes, I read your previous comments. The point is that I don't understand English urban dictionary very-well, **** happens sometimes because of this. Not meant any harm to you, take my apologies ;)
Apology accepted. I suppose it was difficult to also determine what i meant with just a few words as well :P that was my mistake. I am glad that is sorted though :D
|

Seriana Merigold
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 00:43:00 -
[5456] - Quote
And y not replace the mini-dread module by a mini-carrier module?
- un-nerf the hull and keep the buff - remove the MJD bonus to replace it with drones bonus (hp/dmg) - add more drone bay/bandwith - change the range bonus of the bastion module for a +25km drones range, add a bandwith bonus and and something like ''Can deploy 5 additionnal drones'' when active
Throwing 10 drones on frigs should be cool and it add to the overall dps |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
302
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 01:04:00 -
[5457] - Quote
Seriana Merigold wrote:And y not replace the mini-dread module by a mini-carrier module? Maybe another class of T2 battleships entirely? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
186
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 01:08:00 -
[5458] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium is it really so much to ask for to apply the bastion mod idea to a 2. marauder hull(same hull, you can change slightly the paint job, even the same one would do) and keep marauders as they are(or better yet fix the biggest issues)?
Most T2 ship already got 2 variants, one more geared towards projection and dps and one more focused on tank and utility. So keeping this in mind we could just add 4 new ships focused around bastion and give the old ones a different bonus instead of the active tanking one(since it is already highly situational and wasted where they shine the most, in gang focused pve).
Marauders do fill a few niches today:
The CNR can't really fit active tank + torps well, the golem however can and just needs a lot more speed and a explosive velocity bonus to polish it as dedicated torpedo platform. The Kronos can be very good, as rail+sentry platform(where the Vindicator got issues) that is very mobile(1100m/s) extreme flexible with the range(utility slots for drone links), can cover close range with rails and sentry's with the web bonus and can also shine when you need the utility mods for other stuff(like RR in RR gangs or smart bombs/nos for pvp). What the Kronos needs is 125/275 drone bay(2 sentry sets for different ranges + lights) and the optimal/tracking bonus of the domi for drones. The Vargur simply needs the ability to fit artillery and a optimal bonus to become a more focused medium range artillery platform. The Paladin is mostly fine, and a tracking bonus instead of the optimal one would be cool.
Also a bit more scan resolution and sensor strength would be nice, also a cap use bonus for mwd and a cpu fitting bonus for the Golem and Vargur for shield transporters, similar like on logis. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 02:23:00 -
[5459] - Quote
The Djego wrote:CCP Ytterbium is it really so much to ask for to apply the bastion mod idea to a 2. marauder hull(same hull, you can change slightly the paint job, even the same one would do) and keep marauders as they are(or better yet fix the biggest issues)?
Most T2 ship already got 2 variants, one more geared towards projection and dps and one more focused on tank and utility. So keeping this in mind we could just add 4 new ships focused around bastion and give the old ones a different bonus instead of the active tanking one(since it is already highly situational and wasted where they shine the most, in gang focused pve).
Marauders do fill a few niches today:
The CNR can't really fit active tank + torps well, the golem however can and just needs a lot more speed and a explosive velocity bonus to polish it as dedicated torpedo platform. The Kronos can be very good, as rail+sentry platform(where the Vindicator got issues) that is very mobile(1100m/s) extreme flexible with the range(utility slots for drone links), can cover close range with rails and sentry's with the web bonus and can also shine when you need the utility mods for other stuff(like RR in RR gangs or smart bombs/nos for pvp). What the Kronos needs is 125/275 drone bay(2 sentry sets for different ranges + lights) and the optimal/tracking bonus of the domi for drones. The Vargur simply needs the ability to fit artillery and a optimal bonus to become a more focused medium range artillery platform. The Paladin is mostly fine, and a tracking bonus instead of the optimal one would be cool.
Also a bit more scan resolution and sensor strength would be nice, also a cap use bonus for mwd and a cpu fitting bonus for the Golem and Vargur for shield transporters, similar like on logis.
They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 02:35:00 -
[5460] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. And yet the main attribute that was put on them intentionally upon release to explicitly make them PVE battleships - the low sensor strength - is kept.
|
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 02:43:00 -
[5461] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. And yet the main attribute that was put on them intentionally upon release to explicitly make them PVE battleships - the low sensor strength - is kept.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Imagine that... |

Zand Vor
Imbrium Clan
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 02:43:00 -
[5462] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:The Djego wrote:CCP Ytterbium is it really so much to ask for to apply the bastion mod idea to a 2. marauder hull(same hull, you can change slightly the paint job, even the same one would do) and keep marauders as they are(or better yet fix the biggest issues)?
Most T2 ship already got 2 variants, one more geared towards projection and dps and one more focused on tank and utility. So keeping this in mind we could just add 4 new ships focused around bastion and give the old ones a different bonus instead of the active tanking one(since it is already highly situational and wasted where they shine the most, in gang focused pve).
Marauders do fill a few niches today:
The CNR can't really fit active tank + torps well, the golem however can and just needs a lot more speed and a explosive velocity bonus to polish it as dedicated torpedo platform. The Kronos can be very good, as rail+sentry platform(where the Vindicator got issues) that is very mobile(1100m/s) extreme flexible with the range(utility slots for drone links), can cover close range with rails and sentry's with the web bonus and can also shine when you need the utility mods for other stuff(like RR in RR gangs or smart bombs/nos for pvp). What the Kronos needs is 125/275 drone bay(2 sentry sets for different ranges + lights) and the optimal/tracking bonus of the domi for drones. The Vargur simply needs the ability to fit artillery and a optimal bonus to become a more focused medium range artillery platform. The Paladin is mostly fine, and a tracking bonus instead of the optimal one would be cool.
Also a bit more scan resolution and sensor strength would be nice, also a cap use bonus for mwd and a cpu fitting bonus for the Golem and Vargur for shield transporters, similar like on logis. They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck.
+1 I love the new Golem look but the overall hull nerf hurts me more than anything. I have no use for the Bastion module (as I run Incursions), and the loss of significant cap and speed to where it is worse than the Navy ships really hurts.
If the nerfs needs to stay, can we transfer some of the penalites applied to the hulls more to the Bastion module? I know Tech2 is supposed to be a "specialized" ship, but this seems overkill to me.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
302
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 03:02:00 -
[5463] - Quote
Zand Vor wrote:I love the new Golem look but the overall hull nerf hurts me more than anything. I have no use for the Bastion module (as I run Incursions), and the loss of significant cap and speed to where it is worse than the Navy ships really hurts. I'm fine with the changes (mostly because it's unlikely to change at this point). When I finish training for a Golem I'm going to park it in a 0.5 asteroid field, load the auto-target heavy missiles and light Bastion. Should be good for some anti-ganking laughs. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 03:11:00 -
[5464] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Mioelnir wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. And yet the main attribute that was put on them intentionally upon release to explicitly make them PVE battleships - the low sensor strength - is kept. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Imagine that...
Yes, that's right. LOW sensor strength that can be easily jammed was the primary hindrance CCP gave the marauder class so that they wouldn't be used in PvP. Times change. CCP figures (I assume) that giving them e-war immunity makes low sensor strength moot with respect to PVP. It's also a nice gimme against Sansha, Guristas and Serpentis NPC's, and some Incursion jamming frigs.
When Bastioned, the thing could have a sensor strength of 1 and it can't be jammed. I'm not saying the Bastion module is the end-all, be-all of PvP, obviously the accompanying immobility has its drawbacks, but I can see Bastion mode being employed in niche situations.
For missions like Worlds Collide, Berserker, Blockade, Vengeance, I plan on using it. When it makes sense to use mobile ships, I'll use others. Efficiency is key to making isk and Bastion puts another tool in the toolbox. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 03:31:00 -
[5465] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:While the ripping apart small gangs thing is up for debate, that still leaves the stated advantages of the ship and bastion combo that weren't really countered there. So I guess the question of what regarding those aspects you still find less than sufficient still remains.
- They cost a billion ISK
- 18 seconds to align. That's the same as a hulk. Speed and mobility is king in warfare.
- It gets even better; "ripping apart small gangs", that's in bastion mode, where they are not even moving at all. Of course all small gangs are then going to stop moving as well, just to make things fair?
- The bastion module - one fatal flaw. All its bonuses are defensive. No one wins a fight by defending. I can happily suicide fleets of tackle while getting a cyno and dread into position, and still win the ISK war handsomely.
- MJD? If a marauder uses a MJD, it means it has lost and is running away (which, ultimately, it won't be able to do) and whatever support it had is now dead or dying.
- Did I mention they cost a billion ISK?
I'll give you a case in point: the best (and most expensive) PvP battleship is the Bhaalgorn. In four years I've seen it once in nul-sec. See them all the time in WH's thought. The reason why - the mechanics of WH's severely hamper the ability of FC's to escalate any conflict. Those restraints don't exist in nul-sec or indeed in empire. I'm sure the salvage will be quite good though.
so now we call it escalation and not blobbing, I must have missed the memo You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
362
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 03:43:00 -
[5466] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Mioelnir wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. And yet the main attribute that was put on them intentionally upon release to explicitly make them PVE battleships - the low sensor strength - is kept. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Imagine that... Yes, that's right. LOW sensor strength that can be easily jammed was the primary hindrance CCP gave the marauder class so that they wouldn't be used in PvP. Times change. CCP figures (I assume) that giving them e-war immunity makes low sensor strength moot with respect to PVP. It's also a nice gimme against Sansha, Guristas and Serpentis NPC's, and some Incursion jamming frigs. When Bastioned, the thing could have a sensor strength of 1 and it can't be jammed. I'm not saying the Bastion module is the end-all, be-all of PvP, obviously the accompanying immobility has its drawbacks, but I can see Bastion mode being employed in niche situations. For missions like Worlds Collide, Berserker, Blockade, Vengeance, I plan on using it. When it makes sense to use mobile ships, I'll use others. Efficiency is key to making isk and Bastion puts another tool in the toolbox.
Interesting that a billion isk ship is good for four, possibly ten missions out of the hundred plus, is an ok re-balance (of the ship class intended to be the PvE king) in your mind. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8208
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 03:52:00 -
[5467] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. And yet the main attribute that was put on them intentionally upon release to explicitly make them PVE battleships - the low sensor strength - is kept.
They are keeping it as a drawback to justify the E-war immunity of bastion. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
579
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 04:28:00 -
[5468] - Quote
Just to stop all the QQ.
Rebalance Marauders without bastion, so that people can QQ that they trained for however long for a pve boat, that is now worthless.
Then, create and new class.
The class can simply be referred to as Bastions and the module can be wrapped into the ship, as too many people will QQ if you try to establish bastions being usable on any other ships.
Make them out of the tier 3 BS's but keep the Caldari as a Missile boat.
For the sake of creating more QQ, please give them more dps than existing marauders. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
302
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 04:33:00 -
[5469] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Just to stop all the QQ. Question: What's QQ? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

stoicfaux
3229
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 05:22:00 -
[5470] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Just to stop all the QQ. Question: What's QQ? Google it. Which leads to: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=QQ
|
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 05:38:00 -
[5471] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Mioelnir wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck. And yet the main attribute that was put on them intentionally upon release to explicitly make them PVE battleships - the low sensor strength - is kept. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Imagine that... Yes, that's right. LOW sensor strength that can be easily jammed was the primary hindrance CCP gave the marauder class so that they wouldn't be used in PvP. Times change. CCP figures (I assume) that giving them e-war immunity makes low sensor strength moot with respect to PVP. It's also a nice gimme against Sansha, Guristas and Serpentis NPC's, and some Incursion jamming frigs. When Bastioned, the thing could have a sensor strength of 1 and it can't be jammed. I'm not saying the Bastion module is the end-all, be-all of PvP, obviously the accompanying immobility has its drawbacks, but I can see Bastion mode being employed in niche situations. For missions like Worlds Collide, Berserker, Blockade, Vengeance, I plan on using it. When it makes sense to use mobile ships, I'll use others. Efficiency is key to making isk and Bastion puts another tool in the toolbox. Interesting that a billion isk ship is good for four, possibly ten missions out of the hundred plus, is an ok re-balance (of the ship class intended to be the PvE king) in your mind.
'PvE king'?
Whose? Not mine.
PvE efficiency for me is a pair of tachyon Nightmares with four IN heat sinks, three tracking computers and minimal tank WITH a third toon in a Noctis. This makes a ton more ISK than my TQ marauders (I have several. And multiple toons with Marauder V.)
People who only fly TQ marauders for their missioning are not being efficient. Or they have one toon. But if so, there's some clear benefits for them in the new marauders.
Something like Assault (Guristas) or Blockade (Sansha) is a pain in the ass for a solo pilot, regardless of ship (sentry drone boats are doable, but meh dps).
A pair of Nightmares or Vindis or Machs (depending on the rat) will blitz missions WAY faster and I have those too. I use Dramiels for Recon 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 and Cargo Delivery. I also do my missioning in a double lvl-4 security station and I have 8 toons that can get missions, so out of 16 possible missions I get to cherry pick what to run (I tend to pick those missions that get me 8000+ LP per mission and very little travel.)
Marauders will get a small part of that in my Eve day. Like I said, one more tool in the toolbox.
If I want to run incursions, I'll fire up four computers and with the new marauders I'll be able to field four dps ships (two self-tanking Paladins, a VIndi and a Bhaal instead of three NM's that I run now.) Win? A billion isk for a few hours of work ain't bad.
How do you PvE? |

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 05:44:00 -
[5472] - Quote
DEAR CCP,
Please for the love of GOD do not change the Golem to look worse. I just saw the singularity version and the proportions are terrible, the ship looked better and now it looks awkward, the bent / straight wings don't work at all, the front of the ship is also badly proportioned to the back. The front also looks like a t3 tengu crashed into it upsidedown. It's terrible! Awful and I really think it STINKS! I HATE IT! Yes I said hate the new design.
The only improvement on the new Golem is removing the right side space tumor it previously had, but the wings, the front, everything about the new look is weak sauce X10.
I really really hope this is not the final version. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
303
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 05:48:00 -
[5473] - Quote
Maybe a Tengu did crash into it... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Nomen Clay
Night Raven Task Force
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:00:00 -
[5474] - Quote
Random thought : I wonder just how big a gang fleet in osmon area is going to have to be to actually knock a bastioned marauder out of orbit. |

Henry Montclaire
42nd Devils and Dragons Dalek Asylum
60
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:02:00 -
[5475] - Quote
Hey, I just spent all day playing with the Kronos on the test server, and let me just say, I LOVE IT. It's quite potent in PVE, though it does have some difficulty handling frigates, but that should be manageable, especially if CCP does decide to enlarge the marauder drone bays (which should happen). I found that with my set-up my tank was virtually unbreakable, even to the point where I was able to begin the process of soling a C5 wormhole site (until I ran out of cap boosters)! I only killed one sleeper battleship in that instance, and soloing them seems like a bad idea, but the fact that local reps can hold means that using two marauders in bastion might be a very effective way to burn through high class sleeper sites if you don't have any logi on standby or capitals in the area.
So, for PVE, it seems to work quite well. Throw in the space yurt and loot tractor and it should be very nice! Perhaps not as efficient as a standard dominix, but more resistant to untimely death.
Now, here's where it gets really fun. PvP. The marauder is a blast to PvP with, both solo, and in a gang. Of course milage will vary with the quality of your fit, and I haven't gotten to stress test my baby in a full range of scenarios yet, so take my experience with a grain of salt.
I was able to modify my PvE fit slightly and turn it into a very potent PvP ship. I dropped tractor beams for a heavy neut and a med neut, and I dropped a tracking computer for a warp scrambler, then voila, fully capable PvP ship.
The marauder as a brawling ship is unmatched. A well fit Kronos has double the tanking potential of the legendary duel-rep Hyperion, which is wondrously absurd. It also hits out much further. I also had the pleasure of battling a Paladin who was able to apply a significant amount of damage from 100kms up to point blank, and which I only defeated because I managed to cap him out and use my warp scrambler to keep him from jumping away from me. From what I can tell, the marauders seem to be well balanced against each other, and the timing and aiming of the micro-jump drive in marauder duels is a very engaging thing to practice.
Later, I got to fly in a small fleet of four marauders. We placed ourselves around the combat site and were able to catch a number of other ships through an interesting combination of jumps and warps, playing a sort of jump leapfrog to catch up to hostile ships.
After a good several hours of PvPing on the test server, I amassed a happy list of kills, drove a number of other ships off the field (unable to point them at range), and lost my ship 4 times. To dreadnoughts. Against anything my size of below, my Kronos was a worthy match. Sadly, bastion will make you a tasty target to any blap dreads that come your way. The chances of coming across a small fleet of wandering blap dreads on live however should be far fewer than on the test server however, so I suspect that in most engagements the vulnerability of bastioned marauders to dreadnoughts should not be too crippling, and if you can jump in under a dreadnought's guns then that vulnerability disappears.
From my subjective experience today, I'm totally and completely in love with the marauder as it feels right now. It could use a couple of tweaks, I think that buffing the base hull resists and slightly decreasing the bastion granted resists might help with the current imbalance between the ship as it bastioned, and the ship as it is mobile. Giving it a bigger drone bay would also help it be much more versatile and less impotent against NPC frigates. But the ship's concept, the bastion module itself, and the bonus to the micro warp drive is fantastic to play with and lends itself to all sorts of interesting play!
The two greatest drawbacks to the marauder in PvP that I can foresee is the fact that being cut off from remote reps will insure these ships never become a mainstay of large fleet operations. A small 15-25 man wing of marauders might have some innovative uses, but if they come up against 100+ rohks all firing on a single target at a time, bastion will be more of a hinderance than a help.
The second is that while this ship is an absolute beast to fly solo, and I suspect it will be able to smash its way through most weaker gate camps (a hunch which I look forward to testing), it cannot hold enemy ships in place. With clever use of the micro-jump drive it can certainly grab and hold a battleship or larger, and it may well be able to clear a cruiser off the field with a few well placed shots, but most ships will be able to run away and there won't be much your marauder can do to stop that. If you want to not just smash through a gate camp, but hunt down and murder every last one of the bastards (or to just prevent that drake from docking, replenishing his absurd buffer tank instantly, and warping back) you will need to bring support who can handle the tackling.
Anyway, in conclusion, as they exist right now on the test server, these marauders are like nothing else in EVE. They're interesting and potentially potent in PVE, and they're extremely exciting in PvP. I expect the high cost in skill points and isk will be a major deterrent to most people actually flying these things into hostile space, but those who do will have a lot of fun before they meat their inevitable fiery demise. I'm also looking forward to the sorts of maneuvers inventive FCs will be able to come up with.
|

Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:05:00 -
[5476] - Quote
[quote=Daishan Auergni]
pair of Nightmares or Vindis or Machs (depending on the rat) will blitz missions WAY faster and I have those too. I use Dramiels for Recon 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 and Cargo Delivery. I also do my missioning in a double lvl-4 security station and I have 8 toons that can get missions, so out of 16 possible missions I get to cherry pick what to run (I tend to pick those missions that get me 8000+ LP per mission and very little travel.)
Marauders will get a small part of that in my Eve dAay. Like I said, one more tool in the toolbox.
If I want to run incursions, I'll fire up four computers and with the new marauders I'll be able to field four dps ships (two self-tanking Paladins, a VIndi and a Bhaal instead of three NM's that I run now.) Win? A billion isk for a few hours of work ain't bad.
How do you PvE?[/quote
Foa all that effort you are doing it wrong. If you are running 4x high SP chars at the same time you should look to at least quadraple your isk per hour with wh running or lvl5s... rly.. |

Nomen Clay
Night Raven Task Force
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:05:00 -
[5477] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:DEAR CCP,
Please for the love of GOD do not change the Golem to look worse. I just saw the singularity version and the proportions are terrible, the ship looked better and now it looks awkward, the bent / straight wings don't work at all, the front of the ship is also badly proportioned to the back. The front also looks like a t3 tengu crashed into it upsidedown. It's terrible! Awful and I really think it STINKS! I HATE IT! Yes I said hate the new design.
The only improvement on the new Golem is removing the right side space tumor it previously had, but the wings, the front, everything about the new look is weak sauce X10.
I really really hope this is not the final version.
-Signs alongside this post- +1 |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1320
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:08:00 -
[5478] - Quote
Seriana Merigold wrote:And y not replace the mini-dread module by a mini-carrier module?
- un-nerf the hull and keep the buff - remove the MJD bonus to replace it with drones bonus (hp/dmg) - add more drone bay/bandwith - change the range bonus of the bastion module for a +25km drones range, add a bandwith bonus and and something like ''Can deploy 5 additionnal drones'' when active
Throwing 10 drones on frigs should be cool and it add to the overall dps
And the NPC AI, courtesy of the same guy who came from Pandemic Legion, and despises high sec, will chew up your 10 small drones just as fast, as the AI will recognize that drones are doing more damage than guns, and start attacking your 10 drones.
The Marauders have always been a PvE ship (Alliance Tourney notwithstanding) , because of the enormous cost of them, and their limited mobility, which is going to get a loss worse with the warp speed nerf to them.
The dev's in question, being of the "null sec and PvP is the only valid method of play" mentality, can't understand that the Marauder should remain a "PvE first" ship. There ARE other ways to play this game, other than PvP, but a small but highly influential sector of the player base, and a much larger sector of the developer base, can't grasp that concept.
CCP, you want to use this stupid Bastion module concept? Fine. Give the bastion module all kinds of buffs, like TRACKING and RANGE, and give them a 125 bandwith drone bay, and defence, and web bonuses. The ship is still stationary, which is death in PvP.
Make the ship an uber PvE ship, and the stationary aspect of the bastion module guarantees them to be useless in PvP. Do this as well: if the ship is shooting players, the bastion module stays on 2 minutes after the last player owned ship is targeted. Heck, make it 5 minutes. But for attacks against PvE, the Bastion effects, both positive and negative, turn off 15 seconds after the last NPC is shot at.
But will you even listen to a suggestion like this? No, of course not, for the reasons I have already elaborated on..
Waiting for baltec and other cartel alts to flame away. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Henry Montclaire
42nd Devils and Dragons Dalek Asylum
60
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:12:00 -
[5479] - Quote
I do have to wonder how much time the detractors have spent actually playing with the marauder as it is on the test server. I encourage anyone on the fence to give it a try. CCP's even granting all necessary skills to 5 for the use of marauders on the test server. Go ahead! If you play to their strengths, they're amazing! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
304
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:16:00 -
[5480] - Quote
Henry Montclaire wrote:Anyway, in conclusion, as they exist right now on the test server, these marauders are like nothing else in EVE. They're interesting and potentially potent in PVE, and they're extremely exciting in PvP. I expect the high cost in skill points and isk will be a major deterrent to most people actually flying these things into hostile space, but those who do will have a lot of fun before they meat their inevitable fiery demise. I'm also looking forward to the sorts of maneuvers inventive FCs will be able to come up with. Thanks for the detailed writeup, appreciated. Would T2 resists make any difference? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Henry Montclaire
42nd Devils and Dragons Dalek Asylum
60
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:26:00 -
[5481] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Henry Montclaire wrote:Anyway, in conclusion, as they exist right now on the test server, these marauders are like nothing else in EVE. They're interesting and potentially potent in PVE, and they're extremely exciting in PvP. I expect the high cost in skill points and isk will be a major deterrent to most people actually flying these things into hostile space, but those who do will have a lot of fun before they meat their inevitable fiery demise. I'm also looking forward to the sorts of maneuvers inventive FCs will be able to come up with. Thanks for the detailed writeup, appreciated. Would T2 resists make any difference?
It's been suggested that more of bastion's resists be baked into the base hull, and I think that would go a long way to making the ship more valuable in any fleet which fields remote reps, and probably make the ship a bit better overall.
Having T2 resists AND the bastion resist bonus as it exists right now would almost certainly be overpowered. As they exist on the test server the marauders have the potential to fit the most powerful subcap active tank in the game already. I think splitting the resists half and half would probably be best. Bastion would still be formidable and worth using, but it wouldn't be as mandatory as it currently is.
I'm also a fan of adding a tracking bonus to the bastion module, but that's just because I want to be able to shoot orbiting frigates with heavy neutron blasters, which . . . to be honest, probably shouldn't happen. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
449
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 06:27:00 -
[5482] - Quote
Would like to see blue tag commenting what nerfs are gone and which one stay so i can stop giving a damn about this thread. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1320
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 07:09:00 -
[5483] - Quote
Henry Montclaire wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Henry Montclaire wrote:Anyway, in conclusion, as they exist right now on the test server, these marauders are like nothing else in EVE. They're interesting and potentially potent in PVE, and they're extremely exciting in PvP. I expect the high cost in skill points and isk will be a major deterrent to most people actually flying these things into hostile space, but those who do will have a lot of fun before they meat their inevitable fiery demise. I'm also looking forward to the sorts of maneuvers inventive FCs will be able to come up with. Thanks for the detailed writeup, appreciated. Would T2 resists make any difference? It's been suggested that more of bastion's resists be baked into the base hull, and I think that would go a long way to making the ship more valuable in any fleet which fields remote reps, and probably make the ship a bit better overall. Having T2 resists AND the bastion resist bonus as it exists right now would almost certainly be overpowered. As they exist on the test server the marauders have the potential to fit the most powerful subcap active tank in the game already. I think splitting the resists half and half would probably be best. Bastion would still be formidable and worth using, but it wouldn't be as mandatory as it currently is. I'm also a fan of adding a tracking bonus to the bastion module, but that's just because I want to be able to shoot orbiting frigates with heavy neutron blasters, which . . . to be honest, probably shouldn't happen.
You really don't get it, do you?
First off, the tank on Marauders is fine as is. Any buffs to the resist base, while nice, is hardly mandatory, and simply results in overtanked ships, with zero gain in performance.
Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?
Secondly, as part of this effective DPS nerf of the removal of of the web bonus, armour Maruaders NEED a tracking bonus to be even remotely decent in sites. Given the 92% nerf to webs (yeah, do the testing on Sisi and compare the speed of NPC frigs dual webbed), Marauders will not even be remotely viable unless they get a huge huge tracking bonus.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3588
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 07:24:00 -
[5484] - Quote
So I guess there's no chance anymore that marauders would be made usable on TQ?
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 07:25:00 -
[5485] - Quote
Darling Hassasin wrote:[quote=Daishan Auergni]
pair of Nightmares or Vindis or Machs (depending on the rat) will blitz missions WAY faster and I have those too. I use Dramiels for Recon 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 and Cargo Delivery. I also do my missioning in a double lvl-4 security station and I have 8 toons that can get missions, so out of 16 possible missions I get to cherry pick what to run (I tend to pick those missions that get me 8000+ LP per mission and very little travel.)
Marauders will get a small part of that in my Eve dAay. Like I said, one more tool in the toolbox.
If I want to run incursions, I'll fire up four computers and with the new marauders I'll be able to field four dps ships (two self-tanking Paladins, a VIndi and a Bhaal instead of three NM's that I run now.) Win? A billion isk for a few hours of work ain't bad.
How do you PvE?[/quote
Foa all that effort you are doing it wrong. If you are running 4x high SP chars at the same time you should look to at least quadraple your isk per hour with wh running or lvl5s... rly.. and leave high sec? whats wrong with you? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
305
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 07:25:00 -
[5486] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer? Hey, I wanted a 25% rate of fire in Bastion mode... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 08:02:00 -
[5487] - Quote
Henry Montclaire, i checked your killboard and i had to smile. you talking about marauder pvp gives me a shiver. I am writing with one of my alts, but seriously, if the char Henry Montclaire is not an alt of yours then shame on you.
All your long text and it seems you never did PVP with high class battleships on TQ, or small gang solo pvp.
I don't want to bash you, but singularity fights are mostly so far away from reality that it hurts me someone getting conclusions out of it. Especially if the KB shows nothing similar. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 08:21:00 -
[5488] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:You really don't get it, do you?
First off, the tank on Marauders is fine as is. Any buffs to the resist base, while nice, is hardly mandatory, and simply results in overtanked ships, with zero gain in performance.
Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?
Secondly, as part of this effective DPS nerf of the removal of of the web bonus, armour Maruaders NEED a tracking bonus to be even remotely decent in sites. Given the 92% nerf to webs (yeah, do the testing on Sisi and compare the speed of NPC frigs dual webbed), Marauders will not even be remotely viable unless they get a huge huge tracking bonus.
1. The addition of a range bonus (on the hull AND on bastion) is a far greater boost to applied DPS than the loss of two unbonused sentry drones. 2. Manually shooting frigs one at a time via webs is absurdly inefficient. You pop them at range or you use drones. Webbing them and waiting for them to speed down is a phenomenal waste of time. Just fire off your MJD and blap them from 100km away, you got a range bonus, use it.
Oh, right, you're not going to fit that, you're going to insist on burning around with a MWD and pretend you're flying a Mach, and then complain how whatever you're flying is worse than the Mach.
Bastion opens up the possibility of soloing 10/10 plexes, high class WH anomalies, L5 missions, and moving Logistics ships out of Incursion sites in favor of more DPS because they can local tank full aggro. The current tank is insufficient for all of those. But, of course, you don't care about any of that, because you either don't do any of that content or faceroll it with your five boxed Logi alts. Then you get incensed when others are happy with a ship that lets them do things on one account.
People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah" |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 08:42:00 -
[5489] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:[quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]You really don't get ... ...People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah"
No, instead of trolling you should read more carefully. The most people say:
- Decrease of applied damage
- over tanked cow
- reduction in high sec income per hour
there is no worthless, theyy will be used for certain situations like high chance of e war, but they will not be used for incursions. i make more isk/hour in 0.0. only the bigger incursions increase income compared to 0,0 and wh space, and there you can't take the marauder. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8208
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 10:04:00 -
[5490] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Xequecal wrote:[quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]You really don't get ... ...People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah" No, instead of trolling you should read more carefully. The most people say:
- Decrease of applied damage
- over tanked cow
- reduction in high sec income per hour
there is no worthless, theyy will be used for certain situations like high chance of e war, but they will not be used for incursions. i make more isk/hour in 0.0. only the bigger incursions increase income compared to 0,0 and wh space, and there you can't take the marauder.
They have the same DPS from the guns/missiles but better damage application at range. The supertank is a very big plus for pvp. You lost two sentries worth of firepower in exchange for getting 60 to 70 km range on blasters. |
|

Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
98
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 10:29:00 -
[5491] - Quote
How come bastion doesn't give bonus to hull tanking? It gives bonuses to hull resist... Was gonna try an fit up a wicked hull tanked kronos but no hull rep bonus  Blue-Fire Best Fire |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 10:34:00 -
[5492] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote: 'PvE king'?
Whose? Not mine.
Mine is. Did you notice a couple posts before, I told "soloed lvl5 mission with my Vargur on Sisi" ? I really wonder how you do it with a nightmare, under heavy neut pressure, if you were able to find enough cap booster to fire your "tachyon Nightmare", run 2xasb in order to mitigate incoming damage and tanking @the same time.. I was once criticized by going lvl4's with friends by Sigras, but I had a lot of oppurtunity to see my ship's place within others while fighting agains same enemies back to back. And yet Nightmare is an extremely powerful ship in most cases, its solo missioning capability is nothing more than average.
Daishan Auergni wrote: People who only fly TQ marauders for their missioning are not being efficient. Or they have one toon. But if so, there's some clear benefits for them in the new marauders.
Yes, I've one toon and I don't see any clear benefits with new design. Look@my past posts.
Daishan Auergni wrote: Something like Assault (Guristas) or Blockade (Sansha) is a pain in the ass for a solo pilot, regardless of ship (sentry drone boats are doable, but meh dps).
Talking to a man that can solo lvl5 with a single Vargur, this sentence looks like "in order to fly to Sun from Earth, I must fart so strong that whole Solar System should slide under me instead of me moving towards."
Daishan Auergni wrote: Marauders will get a small part of that in my Eve day. Like I said, one more tool in the toolbox.
Marauders have gotten nearly the whole part of my Eve day, Like I said, it is the only tool in my toolbox. If not counting my sniping drone TFI.
Daishan Auergni wrote: If I want to run incursions, I'll fire up four computers and with the new marauders I'll be able to field four dps ships (two self-tanking Paladins, a VIndi and a Bhaal instead of three NM's that I run now.) Win? A billion isk for a few hours of work ain't bad.
How do you PvE?
If I want to run incursions, I will go to the system and will ask for invite by linking my ship's build. That is how most people do it, unless they've a lot of accounts trained like you.
For How do you PvE? part;
Go to station, talk with agent, fit ship, hit accept, go to the system&site, kill kill kill, pull pull pull wrecks, salvage salvage salvage, loot loot loot, go to the next room and repeat. When finished, return to the station and turn the mission in O.o |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 11:03:00 -
[5493] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Just to stop all the QQ.
Rebalance Marauders without bastion, so that people can QQ that they trained for however long for a pve boat, that is now worthless.
Then, create and new class.
The class can simply be referred to as Bastions and the module can be wrapped into the ship, as too many people will QQ if you try to establish bastions being usable on any other ships.
Make them out of the tier 3 BS's but keep the Caldari as a Missile boat.
For the sake of creating more QQ, please give them more dps than existing marauders.
I have been watching this guy closely as he has been reading, replying and generating ideas of all kind on this subject since the beginning. While I'm not all same with his ideas, this one really intersects with mine.
Dividing Marauders into two class, one being bastions and others being raiders (or some other fancy name, bammers/bumpers/besaid goers O.o nvm), the prior should be the design of current subject while other one is the mobile and agile while incorporating fixes of current Marauder problems.
+1 |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 11:18:00 -
[5494] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck.
Actually they did want pve battleships, because they feared a T2 battleship would have to much impact on pvp(hilarious given that they came out at a time where solo BS did mean nano BS).
I actually would love to fly a torp Golem with the proper speed, a Kronos with lots of utility and spare drones for solo pvp, a Vargur that can lock targets at gates before they warp off and a Paladin that can utilize heavy RR and high dps while staying mobile, similar as the navy apoc, without getting jammed by the first light ecm wave and having some utility high slots for pvp. All of this seams far more useful to me than flying a immobile brick that got limited use outside station pvp and engaging low sec gate camps with a oversized active tank, what are only niche applications in pvp.
It is always funny to see that people drawing a imaginable line between pve and pvp while both stuff is based around the same mechanics in the end. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 11:21:00 -
[5495] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:You really don't get it, do you?
First off, the tank on Marauders is fine as is. Any buffs to the resist base, while nice, is hardly mandatory, and simply results in overtanked ships, with zero gain in performance.
Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?
Secondly, as part of this effective DPS nerf of the removal of of the web bonus, armour Maruaders NEED a tracking bonus to be even remotely decent in sites. Given the 92% nerf to webs (yeah, do the testing on Sisi and compare the speed of NPC frigs dual webbed), Marauders will not even be remotely viable unless they get a huge huge tracking bonus.
1. The addition of a range bonus (on the hull AND on bastion) is a far greater boost to applied DPS than the loss of two unbonused sentry drones. 2. Manually shooting frigs one at a time via webs is absurdly inefficient. You pop them at range or you use drones. Webbing them and waiting for them to speed down is a phenomenal waste of time. Just fire off your MJD and blap them from 100km away, you got a range bonus, use it. Oh, right, you're not going to fit that, you're going to insist on burning around with a MWD and pretend you're flying a Mach, and then complain how whatever you're flying is worse than the Mach. Bastion opens up the possibility of soloing 10/10 plexes, high class WH anomalies, L5 missions, and moving Logistics ships out of Incursion sites in favor of more DPS because they can local tank full aggro. The current tank is insufficient for all of those. But, of course, you don't care about any of that, because you either don't do any of that content or faceroll it with your five boxed Logi alts. Then you get incensed when others are happy with a ship that lets them do things on one account. People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah" ROFL, " but my mach is better at being a mach than these ships, F*** YOU CCP" If in doubt...do...excessively. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8208
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 11:36:00 -
[5496] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
It is always funny to see that people drawing a imaginable line between pve and pvp while both stuff is based around the same mechanics in the end.
PvE is nothing like PvP. |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1273
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 12:27:00 -
[5497] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Would like to see blue tag commenting what nerfs are gone and which one stay so i can stop giving a damn about this thread.
Big lines: marauder gets a mjd bonus and a new funky module
Nothing to make it more appealing than it was for what you were doing with before. I'd like to be wrong but very unlikely. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Kate stark
616
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 12:34:00 -
[5498] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Would like to see blue tag commenting what nerfs are gone and which one stay so i can stop giving a damn about this thread. Big lines: marauder gets a mjd bonus and a new funky module Nothing to make it more appealing than it was for what you were doing with before. I'd like to be wrong but very unlikely.
that's good, i can keep my mach until they announce if they're going to nerf it in any meaningful way or if it's still going to retain its damage bonus meaning it will still outclass all the marauders. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
131
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 14:06:00 -
[5499] - Quote
Can't find it in this thread, was there already an explanation given why the optimal and falloff bonus is the same and not double falloff similar to tacking comps and enhancers? Are we back in 2008 where falloff is somehow supposed to be as strong as optimal? |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 16:21:00 -
[5500] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Can't find it in this thread, was there already an explanation given why the optimal and falloff bonus is the same and not double falloff similar to tacking comps and enhancers? Are we back in 2008 where falloff is somehow supposed to be as strong as optimal?
They are the same. pretty much imo, since you can use tracking computer to compensate the missing factor. |
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 17:41:00 -
[5501] - Quote
Henry Montclaire wrote:I do have to wonder how much time the detractors have spent actually playing with the marauder as it is on the test server. I encourage anyone on the fence to give it a try. CCP's even granting all necessary skills to 5 for the use of marauders on the test server. Go ahead! If you play to their strengths, they're amazing!
All skills for Marauders on TQ are not being granted or were not when I was playing on the test server. You will possibly run into fitting problems/limitations. Their set of skills for Marauder testing seemed to leave out AWU to level 5. I fit AC Vargur so not an issue here, though others might want to check what "bastion" skills are currently being handed out for "testing" the class.
I hope people here are actually testing the changes. I do not mind the option to have a bastion module, though I do not want that to be my style of play. I like my mobility and AC pew pewing while I head from gate to gate. I trained for Marauders to hope to earn a higher ISK/hour while running level 4 missions than other options (t1 battleships and/or faction battleships). |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 17:43:00 -
[5502] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:ROFL, " but my mach is better at being a mach than these ships, F*** YOU CCP" Pretty sure the Mach is next in line for the nerf bat... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8211
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 18:04:00 -
[5503] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:ROFL, " but my mach is better at being a mach than these ships, F*** YOU CCP" Pretty sure the Mach is next in line for the nerf bat...
It is. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 18:42:00 -
[5504] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:ROFL, " but my mach is better at being a mach than these ships, F*** YOU CCP" Pretty sure the Mach is next in line for the nerf bat... It is. Which makes the whining all the sweeter If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 18:45:00 -
[5505] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Which makes the whining all the sweeter Oh man, you're not kidding about that aspect... If we thought 5000+ comments on the Marauder rebalance was epic, just wait until the Machariel rebalancing. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 18:47:00 -
[5506] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Which makes the whining all the sweeter Oh man, you're not kidding about that aspect... If we thought 5000+ comments on the Marauder rebalance was epic, just wait until the Machariel rebalancing. Can't wait If in doubt...do...excessively. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8212
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 18:52:00 -
[5507] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Which makes the whining all the sweeter Oh man, you're not kidding about that aspect... If we thought 5000+ comments on the Marauder rebalance was epic, just wait until the Machariel rebalancing. Can't wait 
As nothing to the T3 nerfs when they arrive |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 19:00:00 -
[5508] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:As nothing to the T3 nerfs when they arrive  Yeah, but we'll get another year of OP enjoyment out of our T3s until then.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
726
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 19:15:00 -
[5509] - Quote
Vorseger wrote:Henry Montclaire wrote:I do have to wonder how much time the detractors have spent actually playing with the marauder as it is on the test server. I encourage anyone on the fence to give it a try. CCP's even granting all necessary skills to 5 for the use of marauders on the test server. Go ahead! If you play to their strengths, they're amazing! All skills for Marauders on TQ are not being granted or were not when I was playing on the test server. You will possibly run into fitting problems/limitations. Their set of skills for Marauder testing seemed to leave out AWU to level 5. I fit AC Vargur so not an issue here, though others might want to check what "bastion" skills are currently being handed out for "testing" the class. I hope people here are actually testing the changes. I do not mind the option to have a bastion module, though I do not want that to be my style of play. I like my mobility and AC pew pewing while I head from gate to gate. I trained for Marauders to hope to earn a higher ISK/hour while running level 4 missions than other options (t1 battleships and/or faction battleships).
The script to hand out all four racial battleship/marauders @ 5 and everything you need for the Bastion Module (and somehow I can suddenly fly EAFs when I shouldn't be able to..?) isn't running 24/7. It is running ~19/7 though, so you have from a few hours after SiSi comes up from DT until the next DT to get them.
As far as testing goes, I've flown all four Marauders, checked out their stats and performance with and without Bastion and I can say that for the most part it seems to be pretty nice. Of course, I've never flown a TQ Marauder so I can only compare it against T1 battleships. Still, having 800mm guns reach out into artillery range isn't a bad deal at all. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:11:00 -
[5510] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: As far as testing goes, I've flown all four Marauders, checked out their stats and performance with and without Bastion and I can say that for the most part it seems to be pretty nice. Of course, I've never flown a TQ Marauder so I can only compare it against T1 battleships. Still, having 800mm guns reach out into artillery range isn't a bad deal at all.
Let me summerize the comparison for you;
- Mobility is nerfed, therefore mobile playstyle takes more damage. In order to fly the same route, you've to spend more time.
- I somewhat felt my shields were dropping *a little* faster than it does, I don't know why, maybe because I couldn't fit any faction mods, but I just felt a little lower survivability. Not much, but little sits there. Something simply wasn't right.
- I forgot what they changed on last iteration, but I think I locked on to frigates faster than TQ. More sig resolution?
- MJD usage is set as a bonus. Whenever I hear a guy talking about pvp, the bastion mode "may" have some usages in pvp, but they wouldn't do it with this price line since bastion mode literally means a suicide. So, bastion mode is something suits for pve. It is not told explicitly, but the effectiveness for this ship is slided by devs from mobile gameplay to "jump and hit bastion" gameplay. Some find this ok (to be fair, I found it appealign before testing it). But I found it no different than playing with a drone sniper ship!
- Powergrid is boosted. I can fit 1400MMs! Yay! Looked nice at first glance on the paper, but in practice, I found it slowed my mission time greatly. (tested)
- Warp mechanics changed, so it takes more time to go where I need to go with a marauder. This is not first thing to criticize, but in the end, adding this to the nerfed speed means more time is needed to finish a mission, causing less pve effectiveness.
I'm extremely sleepy right now, I had two-three more stuff on my head, but I can't recall them right now. I will, when I remember them. |
|

Gwen Ambraelle
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:14:00 -
[5511] - Quote
Aquila Sagitta wrote:How come bastion doesn't give bonus to hull tanking? It gives bonuses to hull resist... Was gonna try an fit up a wicked hull tanked kronos but no hull rep bonus 
You are a strange individual, sir, but I can't help liking you!
+1 |

baltec1
Bat Country
8214
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:36:00 -
[5512] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:
- MJD usage is set as a bonus. Whenever I hear a guy talking about pvp, the bastion mode "may" have some usages in pvp, but they wouldn't do it with this price line since bastion mode literally means a suicide
Price means very little and its far from suicide. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:41:00 -
[5513] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Price means very little and its far from suicide. How much is the Bastion module, btw? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8214
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:43:00 -
[5514] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Price means very little and its far from suicide. How much is the Bastion module, btw?
Thats a point.
Not even sure if they have the BPO out yet so 100 isk right now |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:49:00 -
[5515] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Price means very little and its far from suicide. How much is the Bastion module, btw? Thats a point. Not even sure if they have the BPO out yet so 100 isk right now 
I think I couldn't make that point very clear :P
I meant, "with the marauder's price tag, it would be suicide to get into bastion during pvp" , not the price of the bastion module ^.^ |

baltec1
Bat Country
8214
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 20:57:00 -
[5516] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:
I think I couldn't make that point very clear :P
I meant, "with the marauder's price tag, it would be suicide to get into bastion during pvp" , not the price of the bastion module ^.^
No no that was aimed at Arthur as he was asking about the module.
He was quoting me saying to you that the ship cost isn't an issue when it comes to using it. 1 bil isn't a lot these days. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 21:04:00 -
[5517] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No no that was aimed at Arthur as he was asking about the module. He was quoting me saying to you that the ship cost isn't an issue when it comes to using it. 1 bil isn't a lot these days. I was just curious how much the Bastion module is going to add to the final sticker price. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 21:17:00 -
[5518] - Quote
After extensive testing I have come up with a few suggestions for bastion mode. (and some waffle)
If you canGÇÖt be CAP assisted you should not be able to be CAP NEWTGÇÖed. The Paladin and Kronos are so vulnerable to newt in bastion mode even with cap boosters their main advantage aka Armor rep is taken away. ThatGÇÖs a bigggg gap in usability.
Good tank on the Vargur plus tracking and the fact it can shoot without cap makes it pretty balanced (not great) at both PvP and PVE. Golem is PvE all the way as I cake walked 2 level 5 missions at LV 4 speeds I canGÇÖt impress how hard the ASB tank is to crack with that big cargo.
I feel in a PvP sense the ships all need a fear of approach while in bastion mode. Without a deterrent to other ships for getting too close you are technically tackling yourself.
As you see reds fill local, your trousers fill with a sticky poo, may as well make a cup of tea, as letGÇÖs face it, you dead.
Granted you need to be a retardant to bastion on a belt (or whatever) in null but why should all the war deccing highsec Jita camping superhero's get to use all the good PvP sub caps? With the titan nerf on the way! Meh its freighter wars.
In PvP tests I found ECM bursts handy with MJD tacklers so a strength bonus to ECM burst would make it pretty handy and more used. While I think BIG damage Bonus to Smartbombs would help balance immobility. Like a 250% range and damage bonus while in bastion mode. A ship that canGÇÖt move with tiny DPS, crap tracking demands a kick ass counter measure to deter frigs and cruisers from simply shooting your MASSIVE supply of drones and waiting until you disengage bastion. MJD isnGÇÖt helpful once bastion has been engaged on the kronos or paladin.
While in Bastion. Paladin GÇô 800% effectiveness of NEWT/NOS effects of CAP Batteries. Kronos GÇô 400% bonus to weapon tracking and 100% bonus to cap boosters. Golem GÇô 250% bonus to range and ECM burst strength. Vargur GÇô 250% range and damage bonus of smartbombs.
Or use scripts.
Every single BS right now can be used in PvE bar maybe the scorpion. Why so much focus on shooting rats?
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8214
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 21:31:00 -
[5519] - Quote
We cant have a frigate blapping neutron kronos. |

Chimpface Holocaust
Zarnfell The Silent One's
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:19:00 -
[5520] - Quote
Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module |
|

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
170
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:35:00 -
[5521] - Quote
Why not increase the warp acceleration as an ability now, bring them up to cruiser speed. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:40:00 -
[5522] - Quote
After reading some comments and testing the Vargur especially (because eff hybrids and missiles), here is a small recollection of what people is asking.
1. Make the ship more mobile - the speed, mass and align time nerfs are making marauders a bit too slow and stationary, making sites slower. 2. Increase the usability of the ship outside of Bastion - buffer, resists, coupled with the low mobility, makes the ship rather weak outside of Bastion. 3. Bastion combat buff - have bastion apply extra tracking or any other buff that would allow better applied dps. 4. More drones - larger drone bay and extra bandwidth, or just the first one, as the ships have very limited drone capabilities. 5. Marauders are useless in PVP - hitting Bastion and then using MJD to escape is effectively 70 seconds of complete vulnerability to other ships 6. Paladin and Kronos are too vulnerable to neuts - so true, you get dried extremely fast and reps/guns and escape all rely heavily on the cap. Make marauders less vulnerable or immune to neuts while in Bastion. 7. Bonus to hull reppers as well as shield and armor reppers - this is actually not a bad idea. I tried a hull repping Kronos, foolishly thinking it would work. Long story short, it didn't. 8. The hull should not be useless outside of Bastion - have proper T2 resists and no resist bonus on Bastion or at least the prior T2 resists that command ships used to have and a buffer bonus. Other solution is to give marauders extra buffer (they have none basically) and let Bastion handle the bonus resists.
Honestly I see all marauders more like sniper platforms. Web bonuses make no sense on such a ship to be quite honest. However, as sniper platforms, they are extremely vulnerable to tacklers without a proper compliment of drones (at the very least 75m3 of drone bay). A smartbomb bonus would not fit on a PVE ship, as you'd get massively CONCORD'ed every time you use it lol.
As for PVP, I'm not much of a PVP'er, but this ship works well on a small gang or gate camp. Sit out of gate guns on low, or at your optimal in null, and just blast stuff away. However, the 70 seconds it takes to reposition the ship is a extremely long window of opportunity to take it down. While in Bastion, marauders tank awesomely well, but Bastion cycles, resists drop, and the slowness, little buffer and rather mediocre "T2" resists make it a prime target for others. 60 seconds of burning/jumping to it and positioning, and 10 second window to lock and scram so it doesn't go away. This either forces another 60 seconds of Bastion and stationary or slowboating away, which won't happen. RR immunity also doesn't help, the 1bill sniper platform is stuck there to die if caught.
As I said on other post, it feels like the marauders are now incredibly unforgiving for a bad position or piloting. Nothing bad with punishing bad decisions, but they get easily killed if caught out of position, no matter how many reps you have. The lack of buffer makes them melt pretty quickly out of bastion. On that note, I tried MWD+MJD on the Vargur, and although it worked well, I'm using 2 mids to achieve actually escape, on a shield ship.
These ships are mostly PVE oriented, and that;s fine, but not all sites are designed with 100km ranges for the MJD to actually work well. So options are either constant refit (loss of time), reshipping (expensive, wasteful) or slowboating based on each mission (loss of time). This basically means, slowboat to location, Bastion-up, and hit targets, wait for end of cycle, hit gate, rinse and repeat.
I feel like Bastion should not be a requirement on an already skill intensive ship (AWU5, battleship 5, T2 guns, marauders 5, high energy thingy 5, etc). Bastion should play more like a dive-into-role button. Forcing the ship to be immune to ewar, stationary and improving on the reps and range is all fine, but don't force Bastion to be the be-all-end-all solution to a rather weak ship. Marauders should be able to stand up on their own, alone, as decent ships without the aid of a dedicated module that either makes or breaks the ship.
Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 22:42:00 -
[5523] - Quote
Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module
Unfortunately it doesn't. My Paladin got neuted to hell and back by a Kronos (Henry Montclair's) while on Bastion. Lost it due to lack of cap to jump away, rep or shoot. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 23:12:00 -
[5524] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:Why not increase the warp acceleration as an ability now, bring them up to cruiser speed. Good one!  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
134
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 23:18:00 -
[5525] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:On that note, I tried MWD+MJD on the Vargur, and although it worked well, I'm using 2 mids to achieve actually escape, on a shield ship.
You are not supposed to make a fighting retreat. Leaving the extreme ewar vulnerability outside bastion makes that pretty clear. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 00:01:00 -
[5526] - Quote
why do people want to make marauder OP? its not like ccp is making the marauder useless. chances are if you didnt like the marauder before, you wouldnt like it after bastion either. people who complaint about pvp well i doubt you were using a marauder in pvp before the bastion . So how can you say pvp will be useless when no one hardly ever use it for pvp to begin with? |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 00:29:00 -
[5527] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:
I feel like Bastion should not be a requirement on an already skill intensive ship (AWU5, battleship 5, T2 guns, marauders 5, high energy thingy 5, etc) [...]. Forcing the ship to be immune to ewar, stationary and improving on the reps and range is all fine, but don't force Bastion to be the be-all-end-all solution [...]. Marauders should be able to stand up on their own, alone, as decent ships without the aid of a dedicated module that either makes or breaks the ship.
This. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 00:44:00 -
[5528] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:why do people want to make marauder OP? its not like ccp is making the marauder useless. chances are if you didnt like the marauder before, you wouldnt like it after bastion either. people who complaint about pvp well i doubt you were using a marauder in pvp before the bastion . So how can you say pvp will be useless when no one hardly ever use it for pvp to begin with? I don't think players necessarily want it OP, just more functional without Bastion. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 02:27:00 -
[5529] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:why do people want to make marauder OP? its not like ccp is making the marauder useless. chances are if you didnt like the marauder before, you wouldnt like it after bastion either. people who complaint about pvp well i doubt you were using a marauder in pvp before the bastion . So how can you say pvp will be useless when no one hardly ever use it for pvp to begin with?
It's not about making it OP. It just feels like it's been improved in some areas while worsened in others. Awesome reps, but extremely vulnerable to gankers.
At the moment, I'm testing one for missions. It has 9000 shield h, great resists but I find myself having to MJD away, to the limit of my locking range 101km just so I can maximise the damage of my artilleries or get to a gate that's 57km away in a reasonable time, that's also forcing me, indirectly, to cycle Bastion at least twice to get the extra range to clear out stuff. I like it. My only main gripe is the lack of buffer. At the very least 10000 shield HP (I have 9000 with level 5 skills)! It's a 1bill boat and I trained for ages for it, I want it to at least survive the volley of 2 1400 tornados! It'll get ganked and exploded faster than a pod in Rancer otherwise.
Personally, I don't mind sitting stationary while shooting, I used to do that before anyways. But I'm a bit annoyed that if anything gets closer to 15km I become useless and rely entirely on a flight of light drones, because I can't carry hammerheads... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

joshua mckayne
Laststar Industries Inc. Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 02:49:00 -
[5530] - Quote
I personally would like to see the paladin get something like
200% tractor beam range/speed 7.5% range 5% capacitor/ Level 10% rate of fire/Level 10% repair effectiveness
along with the MJD bonus and T2 resists and more HP would make it far more useful and more of a threat. and then modify bastion to make it not overpowered.
this is just an idea im throwing out there, exact bonus % could be modified to balance. i just want to see the Marauders become Large HACs and become a threat on the battlefield instead of a " oh free lunch" or an uber brick that cant kill crap. |
|

Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 03:21:00 -
[5531] - Quote
I think the speed decrease for all of them is a bit much. Maybe half of what was proposed should do it. "Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes." |

NexusWatcher
Apologetic Tendencies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 03:34:00 -
[5532] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module Unfortunately it doesn't. My Paladin got neuted to hell and back by a Kronos (Henry Montclair's) while on Bastion. Lost it due to lack of cap to jump away, rep or shoot.
This.
Tested Kronos and Golem on lvl 5 missions and the energy towers sucked me dry no time flat. Bit pointless for the bastion at that point. This also leads to it being even more useless in PvP. Bastion up, get nueted, no more tank, die.
Neuts need to be reworked to be under EWar as opposed to it being categorized under engineering, but at the same time, wouldn't remote cap transfer work as well in theory? If not, then what's the damn point? I'll do some testing and post back. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
312
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 03:43:00 -
[5533] - Quote
Meldorn Vaash wrote:I think the speed decrease for all of them is a bit much. Maybe half of what was proposed should do it. The speed should've been left as is for the most part, to be perfectly honest. Apocalypse - 113 m/s ... Apocalypse Navy - 120 m/s ... Paladin - 105 m/s Raven - 113 m/s ... Raven Navy - 123 m/s ... Golem - 105 m/s Megathron - 122 m/s ... Megathron Navy - 130 m/s ... Kronos - 120 m/s Tempest - 127 m/s ... Tempest Fleet - 130 m/s ... Vargur - 130 m/s (this should probably drop to 125 m/s)
The only comparable battleships are the Imperial, State, Federate and Tribal issues - all of which have substantially more tank and DPS (not to mention being rare as sin). Apocalypse - 94 m/s ... Raven - 94 m/s ... Megathron - 115 m/s ... ... Tempest- 120 m/s
I'm fine with the structure, armor and shield (these follow the other T2s, which are more than the T1s but less than faction) - but the Marauders need T2 resists. Not everyone is going to train or necessarily use Bastion. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8215
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 03:54:00 -
[5534] - Quote
NexusWatcher wrote:Serge SC wrote:Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module Unfortunately it doesn't. My Paladin got neuted to hell and back by a Kronos (Henry Montclair's) while on Bastion. Lost it due to lack of cap to jump away, rep or shoot. This. Tested Kronos and Golem on lvl 5 missions and the energy towers sucked me dry no time flat. Bit pointless for the bastion at that point. This also leads to it being even more useless in PvP. Bastion up, get nueted, no more tank, die. Neuts need to be reworked to be under EWar as opposed to it being categorized under engineering, but at the same time, wouldn't remote cap transfer work as well in theory? If not, then what's the damn point? I'll do some testing and post back.
There needs to be a way to shut these things down for smaller gangs remember
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
583
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 03:56:00 -
[5535] - Quote
NexusWatcher wrote:Serge SC wrote:Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module Unfortunately it doesn't. My Paladin got neuted to hell and back by a Kronos (Henry Montclair's) while on Bastion. Lost it due to lack of cap to jump away, rep or shoot. This. Tested Kronos and Golem on lvl 5 missions and the energy towers sucked me dry no time flat. Bit pointless for the bastion at that point. This also leads to it being even more useless in PvP. Bastion up, get nueted, no more tank, die. Neuts need to be reworked to be under EWar as opposed to it being categorized under engineering, but at the same time, wouldn't remote cap transfer work as well in theory? If not, then what's the damn point? I'll do some testing and post back.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way... Because they specifically state in the OP
Quote:GÇó When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
This means NOTHING can come in to assist you... Not even cap...
Personally, if you can't receive it, they shouldn't be able to take it....
I've mentioned that they should be immune to everything except target painting and warp scram/disrupt so that they can't just un-bastion and get away free. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
583
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 03:58:00 -
[5536] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:NexusWatcher wrote:Serge SC wrote:Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module Unfortunately it doesn't. My Paladin got neuted to hell and back by a Kronos (Henry Montclair's) while on Bastion. Lost it due to lack of cap to jump away, rep or shoot. This. Tested Kronos and Golem on lvl 5 missions and the energy towers sucked me dry no time flat. Bit pointless for the bastion at that point. This also leads to it being even more useless in PvP. Bastion up, get nueted, no more tank, die. Neuts need to be reworked to be under EWar as opposed to it being categorized under engineering, but at the same time, wouldn't remote cap transfer work as well in theory? If not, then what's the damn point? I'll do some testing and post back. There needs to be a way to shut these things down for smaller gangs remember 
All you have to do is get under their guns. Hence the removal of web bonus....
Their weakness is weak tracking... You can get a pirate bs under their guns and orbit to reduce tracking and tank the all day long..
Edit... Not to mention they're immobile... If you can't take them down, just leave... they're not going anywhere... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8215
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:05:00 -
[5537] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
All you have to do is get under their guns. Hence the removal of web bonus....
Their weakness is weak tracking... You can get a pirate bs under their guns and orbit to reduce tracking and tank the all day long..
Edit... Not to mention they're immobile... If you can't take them down, just leave... they're not going anywhere...
Its the same justification used for triage carriers, all ships need a few weaknesses and neuts is one of them. Having a neut geddon dumped on you should hurt. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
312
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:06:00 -
[5538] - Quote
As this was brought up in another thread... since we're nerfing the warp speed of battleships in Rubicon, can we give them some kind of inherent warp strength so people will actually fly them out of high-sec? Give the T1s +1, Faction +2 and Marauders +3. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:25:00 -
[5539] - Quote
I would still like Marauders to gain a role specialization that corresponds to the play style that is being encouraged through their hull bonuses and the Bastion Module. What I mean is that it's pretty obvious that the current iteration lends itself heavily towards the sniper style of play. The added range for damage projection along with the bonus to MJD reactivation align well with this play style. However, the total package falls short of providing a true role specialization within the sniper play style. There is simply no clear reason to select a Marauder for this role over another BS hull; there are just trade-offs.
Here are a couple of ideas I've had on how the base hull or Bastion module could be modified to promote role specialization within the sniper playstyle:
Marauder as Long Range Tactical Support
- Bonus to maximum targeting range and sensor resolution
- Bonus to Remote Sensor Booster optimal range and effectiveness
- Bonus to Target Painter optimal and falloff range
- MJD reactivation synchronization within 15 km
These bonuses together would make including at least one Marauder in your sniper wing beneficial. It would become the sensor platform for the wing and allow the remaining wing members to avoid fitting SeBos. The target painter range bonus allows the Marauder to provide spotting and target acquisition support to the entire group. The MJD synchronization would reset all friendly ship MJD reactivation timers within a 15 km range each time the Marauder's MJD reactivation timer completed. This way all sniper wing members would be able to relocate simultaneously without having to have the entire sniper consist of only Marauders. The overall effect would entice groups to include at least 1 Marauder without completely overshadowing all other BS hulls in that role.
Marauder as Safe Zone
- Increased Remote Assistance effectiveness within 15 km range (still immune to RA itself)
- Bonus against targeted EWar to all friendlies within 15 km range (still immune to EWar itself)
- +2 (or more) warp strength to all friendlies within 15 km range (only while immobile in Bastion mode)
The Marauder would increase the overall safety and survive ability of those around it. Although the Marauder may be sacrificed, the remainder of the group would be able to escape nearly any situation. It wouldn't be very powerful but would at least provide an interesting flavor to possible engagements.
Ultimately I just want a well defined role for the Marauder class that leverages the play style the current hull favors. When considering group engagements I still don't see a compelling reason to include a single Marauder within a long range group other than marginally better damage projection. The local repair capability while amazing during solo play doesn't lend itself well to group activities. On the other hand, the bonuses only need to encourage the inclusion of a few Marauders and not require the entire group to consist of them. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:25:00 -
[5540] - Quote
I agree with what's said. If we're not allowing ANY assistance, why should we allow neuting? These ships have an extremely high reliance on their caps. When Bastion'ed, one is too vulnerable to neuts, tank requires cap to work, and in the case of the paladin and kronos, to shoot. Since we're immobile, it's quite a flaw that we can get capped out entirely and become sitting target practice...
After some more tessting with the Vargur, I like it, quite a bit. I'd just add some extra shield HP on it and -forcebly have to rely on bastion- or give me proper T2 resists. Most T2 hulls have good resistances, but low HP. Why do Marauders get ever-so-slightly extra resists and no HP? We're getting the worst of both worlds and compensating with yet another "gimmick", the Bastion module.
EDIT: Also, if Bastion is here to stay on it's current iteration, might as well give us a T2 version of it too, like Siege Modules! 40% resists accross, 40% to optimal and falloff, and 150% to shield boosting, while also giving the ship added tracking 15%? (other option is to make the hull usable standalone and Bastion as an added thing) Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:39:00 -
[5541] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:[...] Marauder as Long Range Tactical Support
- Bonus to maximum targeting range and sensor resolution
- Bonus to Remote Sensor Booster optimal range and effectiveness
- Bonus to Target Painter optimal and falloff range
- MJD reactivation synchronization within 15 km
Marauder as Safe Zone
- Increased Remote Assistance effectiveness within 15 km range (still immune to RA itself)
- Bonus against targeted EWar to all friendlies within 15 km range (still immune to EWar itself)
- +2 (or more) warp strength to all friendlies within 15 km range (only while immobile in Bastion mode)
The Marauder would increase the overall safety and survive ability of those around it. Although the Marauder may be sacrificed, the remainder of the group would be able to escape nearly any situation. It wouldn't be very powerful but would at least provide an interesting flavor to possible engagements. [...]
It's a cool concept, but that would basically make the marauders moving auras or fleet boosters on top of the proper fleet boosters with ganglinks. Also would make marauders primaries all the time, and highly unlikeable due to their high price. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:43:00 -
[5542] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
All you have to do is get under their guns. Hence the removal of web bonus....
Their weakness is weak tracking... You can get a pirate bs under their guns and orbit to reduce tracking and tank the all day long..
Edit... Not to mention they're immobile... If you can't take them down, just leave... they're not going anywhere...
Its the same justification used for triage carriers, all ships need a few weaknesses and neuts is one of them. Having a neut geddon dumped on you should hurt.
ya 2 cycles = 0 cap then go to 1 neut toggle as he uses cap boosters and lol dead Marauder.
neuts are listed under ewar. Bastion is suppose to be ewar immune. IE should be immune to Neuts. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 04:57:00 -
[5543] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:It's a cool concept, but that would basically make the marauders moving auras or fleet boosters on top of the proper fleet boosters with ganglinks. Also would make marauders primaries all the time, and highly unlikeable due to their high price. I tried to pick combat aspects that weren't necessarily covered by links but there is some overlap. There just isn't a good reason to include a marauder especially at their price and SP cost in any sort of moderate sized PVP activities and their use in group PVE activities could be improved as well. Something to provide a real role would be nice. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
312
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 05:11:00 -
[5544] - Quote
This just occurred to me... with the Golem getting a new model, does this mean the Raven and Raven Navy Issue are getting the same one in Rubicon? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
543
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 07:12:00 -
[5545] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:It's a cool concept, but that would basically make the marauders moving auras or fleet boosters on top of the proper fleet boosters with ganglinks. Also would make marauders primaries all the time, and highly unlikeable due to their high price. I don't quite understand why people keep pushing marauders as some sort of aura buffers. Boosts with limited range were discussed quite a lot in boosting changes thread about 6 months ago and it was concluded that it isn't going to happen (because of possibly causing too much pressure if those are used with large group of ships or something). |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 07:22:00 -
[5546] - Quote
After fooling around a bit with my vargur in pve i come to use a TP next to 2 TC II. It gives her quite a boost to damage application at close range. I am still a bit pissed of the 5% effectiveness of the Bastions increase in fall off, but this close range stuff is nice.
OFC i have marauder only at 4 in TQ which i maybe regret coming from sisi back to TQ. ^^
What i really would like to have now for my vargur:
- Drone bay: 50/125 - I can live with the reduction of bandwidth, but please give me more drones. A set of meds, smalls and 2 sentries would be very appreciated.
- Allow me to insert 2 T2 rigs. give me more possibilities here.
- I really would like to have my old speed back, but i could live without it. I like to fly with friends and their ships are mostly slower.
I am still a bit frustrated with the underwhelming efficiency at targets from 50 to 90 km. I will not install a MJD, but i really don't know what to fit to make it better. If the Bastions fall-off boost would be without stacking, i guess then it would be resolved. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
520
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 08:13:00 -
[5547] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:
- Decrease of applied damage
- over tanked cow
- reduction in high sec income per hour
there is no worthless, theyy will be used for certain situations like high chance of e war, but they will not be used for incursions. i make more isk/hour in 0.0. only the bigger incursions increase income compared to 0,0 and wh space, and there you can't take the marauder.
Confirming that 5 people are now most.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

marVLs
449
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 08:20:00 -
[5548] - Quote
If they're designed to solo high class PVE then well... they won't work in lvl5 because Bastion dosn't have immunity to neuts.
Marauders need:
- non stacking range bonuses in Bastion
- bigger range bonus for torps in Bastion
- neuts immunity in Bastion (or at least 50%)
- +50 drone bays
- better speed, more agile
- better warp speed
- a little more buffer
- 600 rigs calibration or 3rd rig or +1 med(vargur, kronos,paladyn ) +1low slot (golem )instead of high slot
- changing tractor bonus for something more usefull with new tractor structure (maybe bonus for salvager cycle, range and power)
- automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 08:40:00 -
[5549] - Quote
marVLs wrote:If they're designed to solo high class PVE then well... they won't work in lvl5 because Bastion dosn't have immunity to neuts. Marauders need:
- non stacking range bonuses in Bastion
- more scan res
- more locking range
- bigger range bonus for torps in Bastion
- neuts immunity in Bastion (or at least 50%)
- +50 drone bays
- better speed, more agile
- better warp speed
- a little more buffer
- 600 rigs calibration or 3rd rig or +1 med(vargur, kronos,paladyn ) +1low slot (golem )instead of high slot
- changing tractor bonus for something more usefull with new tractor structure (maybe bonus for salvager cycle, range and power)
- automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage
You ask for too much but i underlined the things i see important.
- Neuts immunity is not going to work. Neuting is not seen as E-War, otherwise you can't kill supers, carrier and dreads with a smaller gang. No one in PVP wants always to get a bunch of alpha snipers to kill a marauder.
- Why is the tractor bonus not useful? I want to keep that bonus. Saves me a lot of time in missions. I will only use the new device in a 8 salvager fitted noctis.
- Why buffer? For PVP or anti-gank protection?
- Just remove one high slot and give a little cpu/PG to enhance the fittings. for example: a golem with t2 fitting has 3 empty highslots (without imp support)
- as much as i would appreciate an increase in damage, just enhance damage application
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
316
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 09:11:00 -
[5550] - Quote
marVLs wrote: 600 rigs calibration or 3rd rig or +1 med(vargur, kronos,paladyn ) +1low slot (golem )instead of high slot
automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage[/list] All T2s only get two rig slots (it's a T2 thing). The automatic overheat/absorb has been suggested a few times (still one of my favorite ideas). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Zeljko Margeta
Aerodyne Collective. Aerodyne Collective
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 09:54:00 -
[5551] - Quote
Could you please do a mirror of the skill tree to Sisi so we can get our hands on the new Marauders? Since they have a new skill requirement and some of us were a bit eager to train it on Tranquility, it would be awesome if we could have a test run on Sisi  |

marVLs
449
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 09:59:00 -
[5552] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:marVLs wrote: 600 rigs calibration or 3rd rig or +1 med(vargur, kronos,paladyn ) +1low slot (golem )instead of high slot
automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage[/list] All T2s only get two rig slots (it's a T2 thing). The automatic overheat/absorb has been suggested a few times (still one of my favorite ideas).
Two rig slots for T2 was explained by CCP that it's because those ships have T2 resists, well marauders don't have them at least at full ;)
Aand yeah that overheating system would be awesome |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
66
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 10:16:00 -
[5553] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:marVLs wrote: 600 rigs calibration or 3rd rig or +1 med(vargur, kronos,paladyn ) +1low slot (golem )instead of high slot
automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage[/list] All T2s only get two rig slots (it's a T2 thing). The automatic overheat/absorb has been suggested a few times (still one of my favorite ideas). Two rig slots for T2 was explained by CCP that it's because those ships have T2 resists, well marauders don't have them at least at full ;) Aand yeah that overheating system would be awesome
Considering that the ship opens up vents on the ship for extra cooling, the OH option would make sense with both the style of play and looks of the ship for pvp.
As for more rigs, it would be nice to have them but to be in keeping with CCPs design of T2 ships it cannot go ahead.
And they still need to look into the slot layout. nearly everyone is saying this
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 10:20:00 -
[5554] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:ROFL, " but my mach is better at being a mach than these ships, F*** YOU CCP" Pretty sure the Mach is next in line for the nerf bat... It is. Which makes the whining all the sweeter. The funny thing is that ccp are effectively filling the marauders mouths full of chocolate and doing lovely things to their bottom halves.
"... and doing lovely things to their bottom halves"
I just got some really disturbing imagery then. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:14:00 -
[5555] - Quote
In order to make Marauders more viable pve and pvp option is to fix its core problems:
- Fixing scan resolution (%70 pvp, %30 pve) - Fixing sensor strength (%80 pvp, %20 pve) - T2 Resists (%50 pvp, %50 pve)
- Just fixing these will make them more considerable option for pvp. They really needed nothing else. - Salvaging mechanics are already be taken care of so no problems there. - Remove mjd bonus. Put a cap recharge bonus per marauder level instead. (mwd+ab+active tank friendly) - For the bastion module (not mentioning falloff+optimal bonus); a - Reducing heat by ((marauders level * 16) + (high energy physics * 2)) percent. (makes 90 percent at most) b - Remove ewar immunity (went for constant sensor strength increase + scan res. instead) c - Remove mobility penalty. d - Remove local repair bonus while in bastion if it still has one in its current iteration. e - Powergrid boost is fine since it will give people more choices. f - Remove that extra +1 high. +1 med slot for ST marauders, and +1 low slot for AT marauders.
What about this? |

Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
276
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:21:00 -
[5556] - Quote
Zeljko Margeta wrote:Could you please do a mirror of the skill tree to Sisi so we can get our hands on the new Marauders? Since they have a new skill requirement and some of us were a bit eager to train it on Tranquility, it would be awesome if we could have a test run on Sisi  Log onto sisi, open moveme channel, type bastion.
Enjoy. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:29:00 -
[5557] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:In order to make Marauders more viable pve and pvp option is to fix its core problems:
- Fixing scan resolution (%70 pvp, %30 pve) - Fixing sensor strength (%80 pvp, %20 pve) - T2 Resists (%50 pvp, %50 pve)
- Just fixing these will make them more considerable option for pvp. They really needed nothing else. - Salvaging mechanics are already be taken care of so no problems there. - Remove mjd bonus. Put a cap recharge bonus per marauder level instead. (mwd+ab+active tank friendly) - For the bastion module (not mentioning falloff+optimal bonus); a - Reducing heat by ((marauders level * 16) + (high energy physics * 2)) percent. (makes 90 percent at most) b - Remove ewar immunity (went for constant sensor strength increase + scan res. instead) c - Remove mobility penalty. d - Remove local repair bonus while in bastion if it still has one in its current iteration. e - Powergrid boost is fine since it will give people more choices. f - Remove that extra +1 high. +1 med slot for ST marauders, and +1 low slot for AT marauders.
What about this?
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ current iteration is interesting, this isnt. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:46:00 -
[5558] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:In order to make Marauders more viable pve and pvp option is to fix its core problems:
- Fixing scan resolution (%70 pvp, %30 pve) - Fixing sensor strength (%80 pvp, %20 pve) - T2 Resists (%50 pvp, %50 pve)
- Just fixing these will make them more considerable option for pvp. They really needed nothing else. - Salvaging mechanics are already be taken care of so no problems there. - Remove mjd bonus. Put a cap recharge bonus per marauder level instead. (mwd+ab+active tank friendly) - For the bastion module (not mentioning falloff+optimal bonus); a - Reducing heat by ((marauders level * 16) + (high energy physics * 2)) percent. (makes 90 percent at most) b - Remove ewar immunity (went for constant sensor strength increase + scan res. instead) c - Remove mobility penalty. d - Remove local repair bonus while in bastion if it still has one in its current iteration. e - Powergrid boost is fine since it will give people more choices. f - Remove that extra +1 high. +1 med slot for ST marauders, and +1 low slot for AT marauders.
What about this?
No. The current iteration, while far from being perfect, brings something unique with the MJD and range bonuses, not to mention the ewar immunity. Yours is just a slightly modified BS-sized Assault Ship with random bonuses. Although the Vargur (and maybe Golem too, I did not test it), suffers a bit from poor range with AC and poor DPS with arties. It may be a good idea to lower alpha and increase RoF with a special bonus on the Vargur. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:50:00 -
[5559] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ current iteration is interesting, this isnt.
Can you please tell me, by side-by-side comparison, what makes it NOT interesting in my last proposal?
And, exactly how you find an immobile sitting sniper platform more interesting while giving "ZZZZZZZ" to having mobility and more options? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:52:00 -
[5560] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote: No. The current iteration, while far from being perfect, brings something unique with the MJD and range bonuses, not to mention the ewar immunity. Yours is just a slightly modified BS-sized Assault Ship with random bonuses. Although the Vargur (and maybe Golem too, I did not test it), suffers a bit from poor range with AC and poor DPS with arties. It may be a good idea to lower alpha and increase RoF with a special bonus on the Vargur.
I didn't say anything about range bonuses, leaving only mjd bonus out. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
520
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 11:53:00 -
[5561] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ current iteration is interesting, this isnt.
Can you please tell me, by side-by-side comparison, what makes it NOT interesting in my last proposal? And, exactly how you find an immobile sitting sniper platform more interesting while giving "ZZZZZZZ" to having mobility and more options?
Because all that stuff you wrote up is already present in other ships while the new marauders are new and unique to subcaps?
Just sayin'... Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:15:00 -
[5562] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:
Because all that stuff you wrote up is already present in other ships while the new marauders are new and unique to subcaps?
Just sayin'...
Thank you for replying :)
I am now sure that with "new marauders", people want to snipe in an immobile platform, given so called ewar immunity (nos?), and be able to repair close to half of their shield/armor with one asb pass.
Well, this is NOT something new for pve, counting my dejavu feeling for any other arty platform or sniper drone ship!
For pvp, yes, it is new, now people will have a chance to hunt sitting ducks :P
Edit: I feel somebody will jump on me saying "ffs you don't have to use bastion in pvp, ur idiot". So again, what was the new idea that seems interesting and new, may I ask? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:22:00 -
[5563] - Quote
An iteration that promises something which brings an answer to a non-asked question of pvp marauders: Being able to do something that you shouldn't use. Outside of bastion mode everything else is nerfed. You will only get mjd bonus. So, this iteration is nothing but a nerf to never-existed pvp marauder.
Just sayin' |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
520
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:31:00 -
[5564] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:An iteration that promises something which brings an answer to a non-asked question of pvp marauders: Being able to do something that you shouldn't use. Outside of bastion mode everything else is nerfed. You will only get mjd bonus. So, this iteration is nothing but a nerf to never-existed pvp marauder.
Just sayin'
No offense, but what you wrote up sounds more like a "turn my marauder into a slow machariel" button... 
I'd just buy a mach if I wanted one. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:34:00 -
[5565] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:An iteration that promises something which brings an answer to a non-asked question of pvp marauders: Being able to do something that you shouldn't use. Outside of bastion mode everything else is nerfed. You will only get mjd bonus. So, this iteration is nothing but a nerf to never-existed pvp marauder.
Just sayin' No offense, but what you wrote up sounds more like a "turn my marauder into a slow machariel" button...  I'd just buy a mach if I wanted one.
Mach's will get nerfed, so now marauders will replace them :P Just joking.
But, the turnaround is that current iteration is much cheaply and easily replacable by a tornado and 1-2 ships accompanying it ^.^ |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
520
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:38:00 -
[5566] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:An iteration that promises something which brings an answer to a non-asked question of pvp marauders: Being able to do something that you shouldn't use. Outside of bastion mode everything else is nerfed. You will only get mjd bonus. So, this iteration is nothing but a nerf to never-existed pvp marauder.
Just sayin' No offense, but what you wrote up sounds more like a "turn my marauder into a slow machariel" button...  I'd just buy a mach if I wanted one. Mach's will get nerfed, so now marauders will replace them :P Just joking. But, the turnaround is that current iteration is much cheaply and easily replacable by a tornado and 1-2 ships accompanying it ^.^ Edit: A single domi should be enough also.
Well, I don't have 3 accounts, so one marauder will have to do for me. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:44:00 -
[5567] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:An iteration that promises something which brings an answer to a non-asked question of pvp marauders: Being able to do something that you shouldn't use. Outside of bastion mode everything else is nerfed. You will only get mjd bonus. So, this iteration is nothing but a nerf to never-existed pvp marauder.
Just sayin' No offense, but what you wrote up sounds more like a "turn my marauder into a slow machariel" button...  I'd just buy a mach if I wanted one. Mach's will get nerfed, so now marauders will replace them :P Just joking. But, the turnaround is that current iteration is much cheaply and easily replacable by a tornado and 1-2 ships accompanying it ^.^ Edit: A single domi should be enough also. Well, I don't have 3 accounts, so one marauder will have to do for me.
That was a pvp side, in pve, you can accomplish same with a maelstrom or dominix already! |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:53:00 -
[5568] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:That was a pvp side, in pve, you can accomplish same with a maelstrom or dominix already! Or Rattlesnake or Raven or Hyperion or Rokh or Drake or etc. etc.
What I want to say is, with all that stuff, bastion mod, MJD recharge Bonus, etc.
The new marauders really will be unique as battleship size vessels, while all the the other stuff already exists I for my part do not need yet another ship that's just like all the others out there.
Granted, there were other ways to accomplish that, but I still think the current iteration is a good solution. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
110
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 12:53:00 -
[5569] - Quote
Apologies for the absence there, (getting the kids down) The new marauders don't fit into any current sub-cap fleet doctrine and will need a new one, thus bring something interesting to the game.
Harmonizing with the established ones brings nothing new, If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:14:00 -
[5570] - Quote
"New Marauders"
Where?
There are no new Marauders. Actually the last idea of Joe Risalo, which I also agree with is really about "new marauders". This is the thread of current marauders, and about re-balancing them. Re-balance means they're out-balanced in time, their stats need some work in order to keep up with the game. This is not necessarily about a new ship.
What design team did is that they just put a module that transforms you. People have been using Marauders for pve missions, and their current ship is getting a nerf without transformation. What I suggest is a re-balance proposal, not a new ship or module. That was my point of view.
But then, Debora Tsung kindly said that what I proposed was simply a slow mach, which was indeed close. I failed to propose the right thing, but again, that didn't also justify the new design brings something enjoying in the arsenal.
I mean I have to jump-sit-jump-sit during missions from now on :( I really wanted to clash my shield into enemies' hull. I want to hear the scream of my shields when being low, I want to fight in a way that I've been fighting so far without getting nerfed! I want to fight like: http://youtu.be/MXcLybhbChQ
That was my enjoyment :P, now I will have to snipe in order to maintain isk/hour... :( |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
110
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:21:00 -
[5571] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:"New Marauders" Where? There are no new Marauders. Actually the last idea of Joe Risalo, which I also agree with is really about "new marauders". This is the thread of current marauders, and about re-balancing them. Re-balance means they're out-balanced in time, their stats need some work in order to keep up with the game. This is not necessarily about a new ship. What design team did is that they just put a module that transforms you. People have been using Marauders for pve missions, and their current ship is getting a nerf without transformation. What I suggest is a re-balance proposal, not a new ship or module. That was my point of view. But then, Debora Tsung kindly said that what I proposed was simply a slow mach, which was indeed close. I failed to propose the right thing, but again, that didn't also justify the new design brings something enjoying in the arsenal. I mean I have to jump-sit-jump-sit during missions from now on :( I really wanted to clash my shield into enemies' hull. I want to hear the scream of my shields when being low, I want to fight in a way that I've been fighting so far without getting nerfed! I want to fight like: http://youtu.be/MXcLybhbChQThat was my enjoyment :P, now I will have to snipe in order to maintain isk/hour... :( You know you can jump towards the enemies If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:27:00 -
[5572] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: You know you can jump towards the enemies
It would be cool if I can adjust how further I jump. Unfortunately, you'll mostly fall behind the enemy, sometimes much far away. Even if I jump right into them, since my ship got nerfed, I will get more damage on my little lesser hull, I have to reduce risk by pushin saveMeButton, which will immobilize me :(
This will reduce the enjoyment of being actively manuavering between enemy hulls. Sitting is simply boring. And I haven't been sitting so far with my Marauder. So, I am not proposing something that have never been here. I just want to move! Ofc without getting nerfed. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
111
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:29:00 -
[5573] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: You know you can jump towards the enemies
It would be cool if I can adjust how further I jump. Unfortunately, you'll mostly fall behind the enemy, sometimes much far away. Even if I jump right into them, since my ship got nerfed, I will get more damage on my little lesser hull, I have to reduce risk by pushin saveMeButton, which will immobilize me :( This will reduce the enjoyment of being actively manuavering between enemy hulls. Sitting is simply boring. And I haven't been sitting so far with my Marauder. So, I am not proposing something that have never been here. I just want to move! Ofc without getting nerfed.
I would also love to see an variable jump distance.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
581
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:35:00 -
[5574] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:I agree with what's said. If we're not allowing ANY assistance, why should we allow neuting? These ships have an extremely high reliance on their caps. When Bastion'ed, one is too vulnerable to neuts, tank requires cap to work, and in the case of the paladin and kronos, to shoot. Since we're immobile, it's quite a flaw that we can get capped out entirely and become sitting target practice...
After some more tessting with the Vargur, I like it, quite a bit. I'd just add some extra shield HP on it and -forcebly have to rely on bastion- or give me proper T2 resists. Most T2 hulls have good resistances, but low HP. Why do Marauders get ever-so-slightly extra resists and no HP? We're getting the worst of both worlds and compensating with yet another "gimmick", the Bastion module.
EDIT: Also, if Bastion is here to stay on it's current iteration, might as well give us a T2 version of it too, like Siege Modules! 40% resists accross, 40% to optimal and falloff, and 150% to shield boosting, while also giving the ship added tracking 15%? (other option is to make the hull usable standalone and Bastion as an added thing)
because neuts have always been immune to ewar immunity. Same as in Dreads in siege , Moms, Titans etc...
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arec Bardwin
1167
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:38:00 -
[5575] - Quote
marVLs wrote:[*] automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage The automatic overheat guns stuff would be pretty cool. |

Vulfen
Snuff Box
66
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:42:00 -
[5576] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Apologies for the absence there, (getting the kids down) The new marauders don't fit into any current sub-cap fleet doctrine and will need a new one, thus bring something interesting to the game.
Harmonizing with the established ones brings nothing new,
I disagree they can fit nicely into some armour doctrines in low sec and would be a good replacement for faction BS gangs - you don't need to use bastion (though i'd still fit it and use it on occasions) and these ships can provide a good defence vs dread drops. while still dealing enough DPS across the field.
In 0.0 they would need to find a new doctrine - but i doubt they will be used.
People who plan on taking on the high sec Pvp that will come with POCO ownership will probably fly the shield versions in small active tanked fits vs un-organised foes as it may allow them to use a much smaller fleet and bait these people into a fight they would not normally do. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
111
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 13:57:00 -
[5577] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Apologies for the absence there, (getting the kids down) The new marauders don't fit into any current sub-cap fleet doctrine and will need a new one, thus bring something interesting to the game.
Harmonizing with the established ones brings nothing new, I disagree they can fit nicely into some armour doctrines in low sec and would be a good replacement for faction BS gangs - you don't need to use bastion (though i'd still fit it and use it on occasions) and these ships can provide a good defence vs dread drops. while still dealing enough DPS across the field. In 0.0 they would need to find a new doctrine - but i doubt they will be used. People who plan on taking on the high sec Pvp that will come with POCO ownership will probably fly the shield versions in small active tanked fits vs un-organised foes as it may allow them to use a much smaller fleet and bait these people into a fight they would not normally do. while happy to stand corrected, dose bastion fit into any? If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 14:34:00 -
[5578] - Quote
marVLs wrote:If they're designed to solo high class PVE then well... they won't work in lvl5 because Bastion dosn't have immunity to neuts. Marauders need:
- non stacking range bonuses in Bastion
- more scan res
- a little more locking range
- bigger range bonus for torps in Bastion
- neuts immunity in Bastion (or at least 50%)
- +50 drone bays
- better speed, more agile
- better warp speed
- a little more buffer
- 600 rigs calibration or 3rd rig or +1 med(vargur, kronos,paladyn ) +1low slot (golem )instead of high slot
- changing tractor bonus for something more usefull with new tractor structure (maybe bonus for salvager cycle, range and power)
- automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage
These are nice, but would make them too OP. Perhaps some variations on them.
- Agreed on the non-stacking range bonus. Stacking barely gives me 8km extra range from my 1400 vargur and 20km falloff...
- Scan res is fine, perhaps a 15% increase, the more the merrier but wouldn't suffer that much about it
- This is a huge issue, locking range. As snipers, locking is important. 100km is just not enough without a SeBo, and ReSeBos won't work as they're RA immune.
- Don't know about torps, can't comment.
- Massive reduction to neuting, based on the Bastion skill, or improve the cap recharge based on the same skill. 15% per level reduction of neuts/nos effects per level (max 75%). (These ships are TOO reliant on cap to be this vulnerable)
- Agreed, dronebays are ridiculously small.
- The Vargur is already moving at 125m/s, I'll take that, but agility is a pain.
- Marauders warp faster than battleships (2.25 vs 2 AU), this will be a pain for all.
- Agreed. Need buffer, anti-ganking measure while out of Bastion.
- T2 ships have 2 rig slots, due to their resits (knock knock, give us native T2 resists). However, I would support +1 low slot for ST and +1 midslot for AT marauders, giving them either better utility or better damage application.
- Neutral towards the tractor bonus...no idea what else to put instead.
- This would be cool. Perhaps wrap it around the marauder skill, like the Strategic Cruiser skills, and reduce overheating damage 12.5% per level.
Main issue for a mission runner is a ganker. While bastioned, they can warp in, sit there, get optimals, choose proper ammunition, and just wait for Bastion to end, open fire, pop goes the marauder. As we're immobile already, sitting ducks or easy targets waiting to be shot down. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

The Rincewind
Galaxos Schild Schmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 14:54:00 -
[5579] - Quote
Vargur and Kronos - Tranq to SiSi
The Vargur lost badly on the cap recharge
+5,9 % useage/recharge Tranq. -1,6 % on SiSi
Remind that bastion Module might use cap as well - but one is for sure
- to perma tank, u got to invest for a expensiv recharge mod (+24%) haw dare :( - currently u run out within 28min - not to to bad maybe someone will say, well we ll see.
The Kronos also lost a bit cap recharge but still stable
+ 8,3% useage/recharge Tranq. + 7,0% on SiSi
The Bastion Module bring up a boost but i don t feel baerly the need for it.
Who was the guy who brought this idea to implement?
|

Vulfen
Snuff Box
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 14:55:00 -
[5580] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Vulfen wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Apologies for the absence there, (getting the kids down) The new marauders don't fit into any current sub-cap fleet doctrine and will need a new one, thus bring something interesting to the game.
Harmonizing with the established ones brings nothing new, I disagree they can fit nicely into some armour doctrines in low sec and would be a good replacement for faction BS gangs - you don't need to use bastion (though i'd still fit it and use it on occasions) and these ships can provide a good defence vs dread drops. while still dealing enough DPS across the field. In 0.0 they would need to find a new doctrine - but i doubt they will be used. People who plan on taking on the high sec Pvp that will come with POCO ownership will probably fly the shield versions in small active tanked fits vs un-organised foes as it may allow them to use a much smaller fleet and bait these people into a fight they would not normally do. while happy to stand corrected, dose bastion fit into any?
They can work very well with none-triage carrier reps, because of their range they are able to stay on the carriers and still deal good dps so they can use the refitting service, in order to boost your tank while you field your ships to counter the dreads, or to boost DPS, change utility slots, combine with a couple proteus a loki and you have a good fleet, the paladin is especially good at this when you fit with tachs. |
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:07:00 -
[5581] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:marVLs wrote: automatically overheated guns when in bastion without taking heat damage The automatic overheat guns stuff would be pretty cool.
Except that would be an automatic buff to DPS... which is not on the table of things CCP is going to consider. Power creep much?
CCP isn't going to buff dps when they're bumping up application with the optimal/falloff/range bonus in the bastion module.
In small scale pvp where dread blapping isn't likely (say a hi-sec war) a pair of bastioned marauders would be hard as hell to lock down if they're MJD'ing where they can cover the other, clearing frigs off each other. If they can't be locked down, they can dictate range 100KM at a time.
IF this gets more marauders into PvP, CCP will call that a win. |

BrandKuiken
Ouroboros Consortium
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:30:00 -
[5582] - Quote
As the Vargur and Golem are my main ships and lvl 4 missions are my main income, I have some issues with the new ideas. From my point of view, the marauders class in general (as T2 ships are designed for specializing) is to specialize in PVE/missions. Currently their benefits over pirate BS are better tank, more efficient ammo use, tractor beam range and cargohold.
It seems after rubicon that the marauders will be losing most of this specialization. Tractor beam deployed module now means Faction BS share similar ability. MJD takes most function away from 48km tractor beams. Ships are being reduced in speed now to limit ability of afterburners.
During missions I rarely find myself sitting still and constantly moving around to collect wrecks, meaning the bastion module would lesson the current isk/hr rate of marauders instead of increasing it.
I suggest that the bastion module also further increase the range of tractor beams to give it a defined advantage in a PVE role over pirate BS. |

Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 15:55:00 -
[5583] - Quote
BrandKuiken wrote:As the Vargur and Golem are my main ships and lvl 4 missions are my main income, I have some issues with the new ideas. From my point of view, the marauders class in general (as T2 ships are designed for specializing) is to specialize in PVE/missions. Currently their benefits over pirate BS are better tank, more efficient ammo use, tractor beam range and cargohold.
It seems after rubicon that the marauders will be losing most of this specialization. Tractor beam deployed module now means Faction BS share similar ability. MJD takes most function away from 48km tractor beams. Ships are being reduced in speed now to limit ability of afterburners.
During missions I rarely find myself sitting still and constantly moving around to collect wrecks, meaning the bastion module would lesson the current isk/hr rate of marauders instead of increasing it.
I suggest that the bastion module also further increase the range of tractor beams to give it a defined advantage in a PVE role over pirate BS.
MJD is 100km.. so you can salvage wrecks 48km near.. MJD to other side. then you just have to move 4 km to get the wrecks that was at 49km from your first position.
"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |

baltec1
Bat Country
8215
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 16:02:00 -
[5584] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: while happy to stand corrected, dose bastion fit into any?
I can make it work in a few frigate and cruiser gangs. They will be most fun in small roaming, defence fleets and solo though. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
318
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 17:35:00 -
[5585] - Quote
How about drop the tractor bonus for a +3 warp core strength? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 17:38:00 -
[5586] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
MJD is 100km.. so you can salvage wrecks 48km near.. MJD to other side. then you just have to move 4 km to get the wrecks that was at 49km from your first position.
Or you could have just moved 1km /facepalm.
I think what you're meaning is anything in a 52km-148km range using a MJD allows you to have "quicker" access to. Of course the 52km should be reviewed in terms of spool up time vs just using a MWD to move into range, so the low end range may be more like 55km-60km (keeping in mind if you're already moving close to 800km+/sec, still moving that fast while tractoring means it will be pulled in faster than a sitting ship). |

BrandKuiken
Ouroboros Consortium
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 17:42:00 -
[5587] - Quote
Elfi Wolfe wrote:MJD is 100km.. so you can salvage wrecks 48km near.. MJD to other side. then you just have to move 4 km to get the wrecks that was at 49km from your first position.
While this sounds plausible, wrecks are generally in random directions, so you can easily have wrecks in 80km in one direction and 80km in another direction, MJD to one set of wrecks and find yourself 180km from the others.
From my point of view, if you're going to increase the effective killing range of a marauder (25% optimal 25% falloff), you might as well increase the marauder's effective role bonus along with it (50% tractor beam) ~70km tractor beams would make the bastion module very viable and give it a distinct advantage to a pirate BS without making it more powerful than a noctis which is a ship specialized to salvaging that most Pirate BS pilots utilize. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 18:07:00 -
[5588] - Quote
BrandKuiken wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote:MJD is 100km.. so you can salvage wrecks 48km near.. MJD to other side. then you just have to move 4 km to get the wrecks that was at 49km from your first position.
While this sounds plausible, wrecks are generally in random directions, so you can easily have wrecks in 80km in one direction and 80km in another direction, MJD to one set of wrecks and find yourself 180km from the others. From my point of view, if you're going to increase the effective killing range of a marauder (25% optimal 25% falloff), you might as well increase the marauder's effective role bonus along with it (50% tractor beam) ~70km tractor beams would make the bastion module very viable and give it a distinct advantage to a pirate BS without making it more powerful than a noctis which is a ship specialized to salvaging that most Pirate BS pilots utilize.
with stacking penalty on the range bonus of bastion mode, i dont you it would be wise to use more than 2 range modules/riggs on the ship. I think the range bonus on the bastion mode is design to free up some range riggs or modules so you can use the empty slots for mwd or mjd or tracking computer. if you dont change any modules in the TQ vargur, the bastion bonus will be stack penalize to almost notihng.(something like 5km more falloff?) |

Jake Sake
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 18:31:00 -
[5589] - Quote
The "transformation" is a joke.  At least for Vargur. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
320
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 19:19:00 -
[5590] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:The "transformation" is a joke.  At least for Vargur. Have you seen the "new" Golem, or as I'm fond of calling it - the "Platypus".  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8222
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 19:30:00 -
[5591] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:The "transformation" is a joke.  At least for Vargur.
Pop the hood. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 19:55:00 -
[5592] - Quote
BrandKuiken wrote:As the Vargur and Golem are my main ships and lvl 4 missions are my main income, I have some issues with the new ideas. From my point of view, the marauders class in general (as T2 ships are designed for specializing) is to specialize in PVE/missions. Currently their benefits over pirate BS are better tank, more efficient ammo use, tractor beam range and cargohold.
It seems after rubicon that the marauders will be losing most of this specialization. Tractor beam deployed module now means Faction BS share similar ability. MJD takes most function away from 48km tractor beams. Ships are being reduced in speed now to limit ability of afterburners.
During missions I rarely find myself sitting still and constantly moving around to collect wrecks, meaning the bastion module would lesson the current isk/hr rate of marauders instead of increasing it.
I suggest that the bastion module also further increase the range of tractor beams to give it a defined advantage in a PVE role over pirate BS.
I defended exactly same opinions in the past pages. I also remember that something like wreck tractor platform which will pull the wrecks together from far away. I think I saw that on the ccp rubicon preview. That is my only hope for now. No matter what we will be writing, the design is on the sisi. Even though I personally didn't like current design, something like this will make its way into tq.
There is not much to say, because people really find these changes interesting and appealing. Some of them think that these changes will solve current Marauder problems. I hope they will, because I've been playing with my Vargur all the time, and I don't feel the same enjoyment as I felt in the past during sisi testing. Meh for me. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 20:01:00 -
[5593] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:The "transformation" is a joke.  At least for Vargur.
I looked close to my Vargur and couldn't notice any change? I think I am disappointed on that side also. Expecting something like retracting/ overlapping shield wings etc... Soemthing bigger at least. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 20:17:00 -
[5594] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Jake Sake wrote:The "transformation" is a joke.  At least for Vargur. I looked close to my Vargur and couldn't notice any change? I think I am disappointed on that side also. Expecting something like retracting / overlapping shield wings etc... Something bigger at least.
Oh now I see, an armor is brought through the shield planes. That animation should be more attractive and visible. Lightning is required on those armor plates. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1526
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:05:00 -
[5595] - Quote
Really wish the animations were about 15x more dramatic. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:09:00 -
[5596] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Really wish the animations were about 15x more dramatic.
When I heard the word "transform" for the first time, this was what I expected: http://youtu.be/veyX-miC4VM?t=16s
:P At least something in a similar way :P
Edit: Wouldn't it be cool to transform like this in front of an exotic dancer and simply tell her "My name is Vargur Prime" :P
I think I'm loosing it :D |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:12:00 -
[5597] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:BrandKuiken wrote:Elfi Wolfe wrote:MJD is 100km.. so you can salvage wrecks 48km near.. MJD to other side. then you just have to move 4 km to get the wrecks that was at 49km from your first position.
While this sounds plausible, wrecks are generally in random directions, so you can easily have wrecks in 80km in one direction and 80km in another direction, MJD to one set of wrecks and find yourself 180km from the others. From my point of view, if you're going to increase the effective killing range of a marauder (25% optimal 25% falloff), you might as well increase the marauder's effective role bonus along with it (50% tractor beam) ~70km tractor beams would make the bastion module very viable and give it a distinct advantage to a pirate BS without making it more powerful than a noctis which is a ship specialized to salvaging that most Pirate BS pilots utilize. with stacking penalty on the range bonus of bastion mode, i dont you it would be wise to use more than 2 range modules/riggs on the ship. I think the range bonus on the bastion mode is design to free up some range riggs or modules so you can use the empty slots for mwd or mjd or tracking computer. if you dont change any modules in the TQ vargur, the bastion bonus will be stack penalize to almost notihng.(something like 5km more falloff?)
Short range ammo it is around 10km falloff extra, and with Barrage about 15-20km extra. It is fairly week, and it seems the Kronos / Paladin make the best use of the bonus. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
417
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:19:00 -
[5598] - Quote
BrandKuiken wrote:As the Vargur and Golem are my main ships and lvl 4 missions are my main income, I have some issues with the new ideas. From my point of view, the marauders class in general (as T2 ships are designed for specializing) is to specialize in PVE/missions. Currently their benefits over pirate BS are better tank, more efficient ammo use, tractor beam range and cargohold.
It seems after rubicon that the marauders will be losing most of this specialization. Tractor beam deployed module now means Faction BS share similar ability. MJD takes most function away from 48km tractor beams. Ships are being reduced in speed now to limit ability of afterburners.
During missions I rarely find myself sitting still and constantly moving around to collect wrecks, meaning the bastion module would lesson the current isk/hr rate of marauders instead of increasing it.
I suggest that the bastion module also further increase the range of tractor beams to give it a defined advantage in a PVE role over pirate BS.
Here's another good idea.
Let's stop treating PvE as a "role". Because it's not a role.
Who ever talks about PvP as a "role"? Nobody. That's because in order to be PvP capable, a ship must actually have certain roles that it performs well to have some sort of application. One of the big problems I keep seeing here is that everyone keeps assuming that PvE is in fact a "role".
No.
PvE, like PvP, is a category of interactions the player can take with some aspect of the game universe. A role would be how the ship actually carries those interactions out, or even what sorts of things they can and cannot do. It doesn't make sense to say "It does PvE" to me, because it's such a vague and undefined blanket statement that the ship more or less doesn't do anything. Instead of that, let's consider a different direction. Letting the ship's role decide what it's capable of doing, PvE OR PvP. Which implies that care must be taken to actually consider activities in either 'half' of the game. You could fit the ship in one way to maximize performance in a certain role that fits best with PvE content. And then, you could fit it in another way, which allows it's stats to be more aligned towards PvP.
If every ship in the game could to some extent do this, we'd have a much better game, IMO. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:28:00 -
[5599] - Quote
BrandKuiken wrote:As the Vargur and Golem are my main ships and lvl 4 missions are my main income, I have some issues with the new ideas. From my point of view, the marauders class in general (as T2 ships are designed for specializing) is to specialize in PVE/missions. Currently their benefits over pirate BS are better tank, more efficient ammo use, tractor beam range and cargohold.
It seems after rubicon that the marauders will be losing most of this specialization. Tractor beam deployed module now means Faction BS share similar ability. MJD takes most function away from 48km tractor beams. Ships are being reduced in speed now to limit ability of afterburners.
During missions I rarely find myself sitting still and constantly moving around to collect wrecks, meaning the bastion module would lesson the current isk/hr rate of marauders instead of increasing it.
I suggest that the bastion module also further increase the range of tractor beams to give it a defined advantage in a PVE role over pirate BS.
The defined role should still stay the same, as the MJD should allow for positioning, it just is accomplished a tad differently. I will say that the role shouldn't change, if you want to salvage / pve / less ammo / bigger cargo bay you use the Marauder (also use less bling as the tank is less demanding), and if you want to do the mission quickest without salvaging then come back in the Noctis, you do so in a Pirate / Faction BS.
They are going to tweak it some more, I would suspect another iteration soon(tm) with less nerf on the hulls. Get on SiSi and test it out, I like them quite a bit after playing them for a bit. The Vargur is superior for Arties than other options because of Alpha + best Optimal / Fallofff range. The bonus works better for the long range platforms, and the Falloff even out to 120km should do pretty decent damge. The Bastion is a "oh sh*t" button with any of the long range guns. 30% resists and 100% bonus to rep is like 3-4 extra mods, plus you can clear enemy EWAR. These will have more fit options than most ships out there, and that is a good thing. Hell you could probably armor tank the Vargur if you wanted and it would work. |

zerquse
Fallen Soldiers of Perseverance From Ashes.
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:37:00 -
[5600] - Quote
so basically this is for 0.0 baiting. you warp into anom with the afk cloaker in system. start shooting rats. afk cloaker warps in and points you. you activate ubertank and light your own cyno. enemy blops fleet dies to your cap fleet? is this the afk cloaker nerf ccp? |
|

BrandKuiken
Ouroboros Consortium
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:52:00 -
[5601] - Quote
My main point was: Why isn't the Bastion Mode increasing the range of tractor beams along with weapons.
What's the advantage of having a Marauder if you kill something well beyond tractor beam range and your targets are not all grouped together.
Or perhaps I shouldn't complain since the extra high slot will allow an extra cap transfer for my pair of marauders so I can swap from AB to MWD and completely ignore Bastion mode completely. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
321
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 22:44:00 -
[5602] - Quote
BrandKuiken wrote:My main point was: Why isn't the Bastion Mode increasing the range of tractor beams along with weapons.
What's the advantage of having a Marauder if you kill something well beyond tractor beam range and your targets are not all grouped together.
Or perhaps I shouldn't complain since the extra high slot will allow an extra cap transfer for my pair of marauders so I can swap from AB to MWD and completely ignore Bastion mode completely. Who cares about tractor beams. The new salvage module in Rubicon will be OP... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 22:49:00 -
[5603] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:BrandKuiken wrote:My main point was: Why isn't the Bastion Mode increasing the range of tractor beams along with weapons.
What's the advantage of having a Marauder if you kill something well beyond tractor beam range and your targets are not all grouped together.
Or perhaps I shouldn't complain since the extra high slot will allow an extra cap transfer for my pair of marauders so I can swap from AB to MWD and completely ignore Bastion mode completely. Who cares about tractor beams. The new salvage module in Rubicon will be OP... We have yet to necessarily confirm that. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
321
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 22:52:00 -
[5604] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:We have yet to necessarily confirm that. Stored in cargo, drags loot to a central location, frees up x number of high slots for smart bombs, etc. Sounds good on paper anyway... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 23:07:00 -
[5605] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:We have yet to necessarily confirm that. Stored in cargo, drags loot to a central location, frees up x number of high slots for smart bombs, etc. Sounds good on paper anyway... On paper sounds great, devil is in the details though. |

HOSTYUT
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 23:18:00 -
[5606] - Quote
Quick question about Bastion Mode. When activated you can't jump,dock, etc. What i'm curious about is once your cycle has ended, is there still a cool down or can we jump/dock up? Thanks |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
321
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 23:24:00 -
[5607] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:On paper sounds great, devil is in the details though. 'Devil' being the operative word here...
HOSTYUT wrote:Quick question about Bastion Mode. When activated you can't jump,dock, etc. What i'm curious about is once your cycle has ended, is there still a cool down or can we jump/dock up? Thanks After the cycle ends you're probably dead, so you can do whatever you want with your pod.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
198
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 23:48:00 -
[5608] - Quote
HOSTYUT wrote:Quick question about Bastion Mode. When activated you can't jump,dock, etc. What i'm curious about is once your cycle has ended, is there still a cool down or can we jump/dock up? Thanks
There is a 60 second weapons timer that runs after the last cycle ends. You can move and warp immediately after cycle (after you've gained speed and aligned, of course), but cannot jump or dock up until the weapons timer ends. As far as cooldown is concerned, I don't believe they have one, so if you leave bastion you should be able to return to bastion immediately afterwards. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 00:14:00 -
[5609] - Quote
You can end your bastion cycle and immediately rebastion, no cooldown between cycles. Weapon timers start the moment the bastion cycle ends. However, so far, that has not delayed me, not the timer, but rather the waiting for the cycle to end. Most missions you can warp in, bastion, shoot, get full agro, debastion, jump out, bastion, kill everything, that tries to get close, debastion, jump back, end the rest, activate gate and repeat or warp out at the end. No issues with weapon timers so far.
I find it particularly annoying that to "master" a marauder you require that many drone skills, for a ship that can barely carry drones... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
322
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 00:27:00 -
[5610] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:I find it particularly annoying that to "master" a marauder you require that many drone skills, for a ship that can barely carry drones... A drone nerf to Marauders? Surely you jest...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
198
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 01:13:00 -
[5611] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:BrandKuiken wrote:My main point was: Why isn't the Bastion Mode increasing the range of tractor beams along with weapons.
What's the advantage of having a Marauder if you kill something well beyond tractor beam range and your targets are not all grouped together.
Or perhaps I shouldn't complain since the extra high slot will allow an extra cap transfer for my pair of marauders so I can swap from AB to MWD and completely ignore Bastion mode completely. Who cares about tractor beams. The new salvage module in Rubicon will be OP... We have yet to necessarily confirm that.
True. Hopefully they won't be utter poop. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
322
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 01:58:00 -
[5612] - Quote
If we could only get access to the State, Imperial, Tribal and Federate issues - this just wouldn't matter. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 01:59:00 -
[5613] - Quote
Post eaten. Only kept quote part :( I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1328
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 02:11:00 -
[5614] - Quote
HOSTYUT wrote:Quick question about Bastion Mode. When activated you can't jump,dock, etc. What i'm curious about is once your cycle has ended, is there still a cool down or can we jump/dock up? Thanks
You are still screwed for another full minute, as you get an agression timer that does not allow you to jump or dock. The module is a piece of junk.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 02:44:00 -
[5615] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:HOSTYUT wrote:Quick question about Bastion Mode. When activated you can't jump,dock, etc. What i'm curious about is once your cycle has ended, is there still a cool down or can we jump/dock up? Thanks You are still screwed for another full minute, as you get an agression timer that does not allow you to jump or dock. The module is a piece of junk.
most warps have you through the weapons timer before you land. BS warp slower now because of the warp mechanic change. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
755
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 03:28:00 -
[5616] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:BrandKuiken wrote:My main point was: Why isn't the Bastion Mode increasing the range of tractor beams along with weapons.
What's the advantage of having a Marauder if you kill something well beyond tractor beam range and your targets are not all grouped together.
Or perhaps I shouldn't complain since the extra high slot will allow an extra cap transfer for my pair of marauders so I can swap from AB to MWD and completely ignore Bastion mode completely. Who cares about tractor beams. The new salvage module in Rubicon will be OP...
It's not actually going to salvage anything. It merely tractors wrecks in and auto-loots them. You'll still need to salvage somehow.
@ Dinsdale:
Please, stop. Or, if you must continue, wait until I've refilled my popcorn. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
322
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 03:31:00 -
[5617] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:It's not actually going to salvage anything. It merely tractors wrecks in and auto-loots them. You'll still need to salvage somehow. Yes, I do realize that. We'll refer to it as the "gatherer" module then. Pretty sure one of the three extra high slots can be allocated to a salvager (or the abysmal drone bays). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Konrad Brabus
The Tall Order Angeli Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 06:11:00 -
[5618] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.
I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.
Well, since u a goon, we'd expect you to ask that :) |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 07:26:00 -
[5619] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:We have yet to necessarily confirm that. Stored in cargo, drags loot to a central location, frees up x number of high slots for smart bombs, etc. Sounds good on paper anyway... What's the range of that tractor/salvage module? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 08:09:00 -
[5620] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:We have yet to necessarily confirm that. Stored in cargo, drags loot to a central location, frees up x number of high slots for smart bombs, etc. Sounds good on paper anyway... What's the range of that tractor/salvage module? Given the new platypus and dead goose models I'd vote for a "bumping ugliess " repost. If in doubt...do...excessively. |
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 08:10:00 -
[5621] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:We have yet to necessarily confirm that. Stored in cargo, drags loot to a central location, frees up x number of high slots for smart bombs, etc. Sounds good on paper anyway... What's the range of that tractor/salvage module?
no one knows for now, we waiting for the dev blog.... |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
523
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 08:33:00 -
[5622] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Given the new platypus and dead goose models I'd vote for a "bumping ugliess " repost.
You asked, we deliver: 
Debora Tsung wrote: Since the mass increase for bastion mode deployment has been removed, it's time for a fun new EVE pasttime.
You can also turn it into a contest.
This is the game:
You'll need:
One deployed marauder in bastion mode per team participating One random canister 100km away (or any other fun distance) And at least one (preferrably) well tanked bumping ship per team.
The goal:
Bump the marauder of your team as close as possible to the canister before...
A) an arbitrary timer runs out (for e.g. 30 seconds) B) the bumping ship gets destroyed by the other teams marauders before the bumping timer runs out.
The rules:
The teams can either start bumping all at once (the great melee) or take turns (the gauntlet).
During he great melee bumpers are allowed to shoot the other teams bumpers as long as the timer is on. During the gauntlet only one bumper per timer may be deployed all already deployed marauders may shoot the active bumper as long as the timer is on. The deployed marauders may never killed. --> You can however bump them away from the target zone.
Who won? Or how many points do I get for doing all that crap?
The team who's marauder is closest to the can is rewarded with 10 points. The second gets 5 points And the third gets 3 points The 4th and all therafter receive no additional points
Now the fun part (mo' points fo' mo' killz)
Destroying a Pirate ship bumber awards 3 points to the team who got the killmail Destroning A T2 ship bumber awards 2 points to the team who got the killmail Destroying a T1 shup bumber awards 1 points to the team who got the killmail The team who "accidentally" destroyed one of the deployed marauders looses 4 points The team who lost a deployed marauder gets 2 points (Note: you can self destruct your own marauder to award your team 2 points)
What now?
You can play as many rounds as you like or until you run out of ships. Have fun!
EDIT: The Name suggestion of Ralph King-Griffin sounds cool. "Bumping Uglies" whoever got another cool suggestion on how to call the game, just post it I'll try to get them all into this post.
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 08:34:00 -
[5623] - Quote
Ran two lvl 5's solo with a t2 fit Paladin on SiSi, Stray Carrier and Prison Break. The short MJD cooldown is awesome for attenuating incoming dps and killing fighters and the neuting from the carrier wasn't unbearable with the Paladin's huge cap.
Large Energy Burst Aerator, CCC I 4 Mega Pulse II's Bastion 2 NOS, 1 Tractor - For the lvl 5's I did the NOS were barely used. The BS rats orbited out of range. 2 TC II SeBo II MJD LAR II 2 EANM II Cap Power Relay II 3 Heat Sink II
The MJD is the only thing that let me do this as even with Bastion a T2 fit isn't tanky enough for a level 5. Maybe if I'd had a leadership toon boosting? Dunno.
The fighter spawns in Stray Carrier hurt, but MJDing in a big circle and killing 1 or 2 with each jump (scripting the SeBo for lock range keeps them locked up through jumps) was dead easy. The neuting towers got a little iffy, but Scorch and 2 optimal scripted TC's let me kill them without too much trouble. Jump in, kill one, jump out and let the cap recover.
For Prison Break, the MJD got me off the warp-in point and masses of close range NPCs, letting me kite the blob at max Scorch optimal of 71 KM.
With just the dps of a single Paladin the missions took a LONG time. Almost 100K LP from Stray Carrier, 65K LP and over a hundred mill ISK in bounties from Prison Break. No wrecks on SiSi? But a noctis would have needed an MWD to be timely. The wreck field would have been widespread. |

Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 09:02:00 -
[5624] - Quote
I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to. |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 09:31:00 -
[5625] - Quote
Johann Rascali.... yeah but the ressist should be better spread ... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8231
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 09:34:00 -
[5626] - Quote
Johann Rascali wrote:I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to.
The second iteration was terrible. |

Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 09:39:00 -
[5627] - Quote
Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? |

joshua mckayne
Laststar Industries Inc. Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 09:40:00 -
[5628] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to. The second iteration was terrible.
both iterations are terrible, its just that iteration 1 is the lesser of the 2 evils |

joshua mckayne
Laststar Industries Inc. Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 09:42:00 -
[5629] - Quote
Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos?
dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills
EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:00:00 -
[5630] - Quote
joshua mckayne wrote:Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is 
1K dps with conflag, that seems, well crap really, the extra range from bastion will increase its usefullness but that's still really really poor for a top flight hull with Max skills.
I was thinking of training up marauders since i got all BS's at V but if that's as good as it gets i don't think i'll bother wasting time maxing out a rank 10 skill.
Are you sure, my nightmare pushes 1k dps with tachs at max skills, seems very low for conflag. |
|

Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
60
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:10:00 -
[5631] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:joshua mckayne wrote:Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is  1K dps with conflag, that seems, well crap really, the extra range from bastion will increase its usefullness but that's still really really poor for a top flight hull with Max skills. I was thinking of training up marauders since i got all BS's at V but if that's as good as it gets i don't think i'll bother wasting time maxing out a rank 10 skill. Are you sure, my nightmare pushes 1k dps with tachs at max skills, seems very low for conflag.
Well the nightmare and the paladin have the same damage bonuses so they should have the same dps. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8231
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:12:00 -
[5632] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:joshua mckayne wrote:Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is  1K dps with conflag, that seems, well crap really, the extra range from bastion will increase its usefullness but that's still really really poor for a top flight hull with Max skills. I was thinking of training up marauders since i got all BS's at V but if that's as good as it gets i don't think i'll bother wasting time maxing out a rank 10 skill. Are you sure, my nightmare pushes 1k dps with tachs at max skills, seems very low for conflag.
That's more than an apoc gets. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:27:00 -
[5633] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hell ***** wrote:joshua mckayne wrote:Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is  1K dps with conflag, that seems, well crap really, the extra range from bastion will increase its usefullness but that's still really really poor for a top flight hull with Max skills. I was thinking of training up marauders since i got all BS's at V but if that's as good as it gets i don't think i'll bother wasting time maxing out a rank 10 skill. Are you sure, my nightmare pushes 1k dps with tachs at max skills, seems very low for conflag. That's more than an apoc gets.
And so it should considering the difference in price and training time.
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:28:00 -
[5634] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Hell ***** wrote:joshua mckayne wrote:Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is  1K dps with conflag, that seems, well crap really, the extra range from bastion will increase its usefullness but that's still really really poor for a top flight hull with Max skills. I was thinking of training up marauders since i got all BS's at V but if that's as good as it gets i don't think i'll bother wasting time maxing out a rank 10 skill. Are you sure, my nightmare pushes 1k dps with tachs at max skills, seems very low for conflag. Well the nightmare and the paladin have the same damage bonuses so they should have the same dps.
Yup. NM and Pally have same damage bonus, NM gets better tracking, Pally gets better optimal.
With implants, perfect skills, 3x IN heat sinks, T2 aerator rig, I get about 1150 dps with Mega Pulses. Scorch is 950ish, Conflag is almost 1300.
Tachyons with IN Multifreq are just a little bit lower dps but 3x the optimal for 1/3 the tracking of IN Multifreq in T2 Mega Pulse.
|

joshua mckayne
Laststar Industries Inc. Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:31:00 -
[5635] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:joshua mckayne wrote:Capt ****** wrote:Does anyone have any firm DPS figures for the new marauders?
I tried artillery on the VArgur last night and the DPS was atrocious - 710 at best, and given mjd puts you at 100k ... then falloff means that the arty vargur is useless. I can get a tengu, proteus, sleipner - anything .. to do 700 dps.
WTF? Does anyone have figures for (T2 fit) Golem/ Pally/ Kronos? dont know about the other marauders but the pally can get 1k dps at max skills EDIT: with conflag, useful as it is  1K dps with conflag, that seems, well crap really, the extra range from bastion will increase its usefullness but that's still really really poor for a top flight hull with Max skills. I was thinking of training up marauders since i got all BS's at V but if that's as good as it gets i don't think i'll bother wasting time maxing out a rank 10 skill. Are you sure, my nightmare pushes 1k dps with tachs at max skills, seems very low for conflag.
1.1K DPS with 3 heatsinks no implants, so the same amount of damage as an abbadon if it fit 3 heatsinks. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:33:00 -
[5636] - Quote
Ah cool, that seems much more sensible. Thankyou for your math skills. |

Morwennon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:36:00 -
[5637] - Quote
[Paladin, bear] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Bastion Mode I Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Energy Collision Accelerator II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
1198 dps with conflag (drones included), 1099 with turrets alone. Throw in LE-1005 and SS-905 hardwirings, and you're up to 1300 combined dps at 32+19 km, or 964 with scorch at 95+19 km. With a little pimp (cheap deadspace mwd and core c-type rep to take the edge off its cap consumption), you'll basically never need to touch the cap injector. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:44:00 -
[5638] - Quote
Are those ranges with or without bastion? |

Morwennon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:46:00 -
[5639] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Are those ranges with or without bastion? WIth. If bastion's turned off, it drops to 80+16 for scorch and 27+16 for conflag. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:48:00 -
[5640] - Quote
Thankyou, ideally i was hoping for 40k with conflag, that'd make it a real contender to a Tach nightmare.
Seems interesting tho, seems like it could make pulses somewhat usefull for missioning. |
|

joshua mckayne
Laststar Industries Inc. Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 10:52:00 -
[5641] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Thankyou, ideally i was hoping for 40k with conflag, that'd make it a real contender to a Tach nightmare.
Seems interesting tho, seems like it could make pulses somewhat usefull for missioning.
although the NAPOC is better with pulse lasers by virtue of its tracking bonus and can actually make conflag hit the broad side of a barn. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 11:04:00 -
[5642] - Quote
joshua mckayne wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Thankyou, ideally i was hoping for 40k with conflag, that'd make it a real contender to a Tach nightmare.
Seems interesting tho, seems like it could make pulses somewhat usefull for missioning. although the NAPOC is better with pulse lasers by virtue of its tracking bonus and can actually make conflag hit the broad side of a barn.
Yeah, I have been spoiled with the nightmares tracking bonus, not sure how effective it'd be without. I'll just have to wait and see if/when these go live. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 11:24:00 -
[5643] - Quote
Suggestion
A marauder has the option of fitting extra offline alternatives and turn them on in space, they can fit 8H/ 8M/ 8L slots but can only use a predefined primary number of modules at the same time, similar to live.
VARGUR
Note: Can fit Tactical Jump Drive(Targeted). 70% reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay.
Role bonus: 100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage. 90% reduction in capacitor need when turning modules online.(not activation, just "online") 50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level. 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level. 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level.
Slot layout: 6H(8), 6M(8), 5L(8); 4 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 9500 / 9200 / 8200 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 142m/s / .112 / 116840000/ 18.1s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 65 / 260 Sensor strength: 28 Ladar
Ex. 1 I have a pure PvE fit and go about missioning, I notice suspicious players in local so I offline something less vital for a few emergency survival modules just in case. Ex. 2 I have a specialized PvE fit and turns out the enemy I'm fighting is doing heavy EM damage which I'm not protected against, I offline something less useful and online some of my previously fitted but offline EM resistance and proceed fighting.
You get the picture, it is simple but invaluable and follows the idea of Marauders being versatile and long duration vessels. I also think the targeted MJD, a decent buffer, drone bay and functional sensor strength is needed.
Can I get it in white?
Put bastion on something completely different, maybe on a new ship role altogether, defender?
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1527
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 11:40:00 -
[5644] - Quote
joshua mckayne wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Thankyou, ideally i was hoping for 40k with conflag, that'd make it a real contender to a Tach nightmare.
Seems interesting tho, seems like it could make pulses somewhat usefull for missioning. although the NAPOC is better with pulse lasers by virtue of its tracking bonus and can actually make conflag hit the broad side of a barn.
Be a man.
Use beams. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 12:10:00 -
[5645] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Serge SC wrote:I agree with what's said. If we're not allowing ANY assistance, why should we allow neuting? These ships have an extremely high reliance on their caps. When Bastion'ed, one is too vulnerable to neuts, tank requires cap to work, and in the case of the paladin and kronos, to shoot. Since we're immobile, it's quite a flaw that we can get capped out entirely and become sitting target practice...
After some more tessting with the Vargur, I like it, quite a bit. I'd just add some extra shield HP on it and -forcebly have to rely on bastion- or give me proper T2 resists. Most T2 hulls have good resistances, but low HP. Why do Marauders get ever-so-slightly extra resists and no HP? We're getting the worst of both worlds and compensating with yet another "gimmick", the Bastion module.
EDIT: Also, if Bastion is here to stay on it's current iteration, might as well give us a T2 version of it too, like Siege Modules! 40% resists accross, 40% to optimal and falloff, and 150% to shield boosting, while also giving the ship added tracking 15%? (other option is to make the hull usable standalone and Bastion as an added thing) because neuts have always been immune to ewar immunity. Same as in Dreads in siege , Moms, Titans etc...
Dreads, Moms, Titans can be remote assisted. If you can't fill the capacitor volume remotely it makes no sense being able to empty one remotely. The nerf to the paladin and kronos is huge as it canGÇÖt use ASBGÇÖs to get the ehp back. Give the kronos and paladin a sub cap super weapon that can alpha vindicators and I wouldnGÇÖt care  |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 12:25:00 -
[5646] - Quote
Neut immunity would be so absurdly overpowered it doesn't even bear thinking about, what should happen is that the bastion module should require some cap per cycle, even just 1GJ, so that ASB fitted marauders have some weakness.
With the V1 bastion module an ASB Vargur's tank is bordering on God-mode and requires no cap to run at all. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
526
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 13:49:00 -
[5647] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Neut immunity would be so absurdly overpowered it doesn't even bear thinking about, what should happen is that the bastion module should require some cap per cycle, even just 1GJ, so that ASB fitted marauders have some weakness.
With the V1 bastion module an ASB Vargur's tank is bordering on God-mode and requires no cap to run at all.
It requires Cap Boosters tho. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 13:55:00 -
[5648] - Quote
Cap booster charges, and it's hold is massive. Compare the 2 shield marauders to the 2 armour marauders.
Vargur & Golem - Capless weapons and the option of ASB's (capless tanking, improved by the capless bastion module)
Paladin & Kronos - Needs cap for weapons and tank, bastion module requires no cap but what does it matter if you can't run that bastion boosted repper.
Armour marauders are getting the shaft being very vulnerable to cap warfare whilst the other 2 are virtually immune.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
585
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:02:00 -
[5649] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Neut immunity would be so absurdly overpowered it doesn't even bear thinking about, what should happen is that the bastion module should require some cap per cycle, even just 1GJ, so that ASB fitted marauders have some weakness.
With the V1 bastion module an ASB Vargur's tank is bordering on God-mode and requires no cap to run at all.
Again, the issue with ASB and Marauders/bastion is not the fault of Marauders or bastion.
A single ASB if balanced... Duel ASBs is OP and thus should not be allowed through some gimmick along the same lines as Bastion and DCU.
Same goes for AAR.. Only one per ship. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
585
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:04:00 -
[5650] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Cap booster charges, and it's hold is massive. Compare the 2 shield marauders to the 2 armour marauders.
Vargur & Golem - Capless weapons and the option of ASB's (capless tanking, improved by the capless bastion module)
Paladin & Kronos - Needs cap for weapons and tank, bastion module requires no cap but what does it matter if you can't run that bastion boosted repper.
Armour marauders are getting the shaft being very vulnerable to cap warfare whilst the other 2 are virtually immune.
Yes, but if you manage to lock a Vargur or Golem down long enough to force them to boost with cap, they're dry out in seconds. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
526
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:05:00 -
[5651] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Cap booster charges, and it's hold is massive. Compare the 2 shield marauders to the 2 armour marauders.
Vargur & Golem - Capless weapons and the option of ASB's (capless tanking, improved by the capless bastion module)
Paladin & Kronos - Needs cap for weapons and tank, bastion module requires no cap but what does it matter if you can't run that bastion boosted repper.
Armour marauders are getting the shaft being very vulnerable to cap warfare whilst the other 2 are virtually immune.
True true, I just said that so nobody would ever think god mode tank would last forever. 
My golem can hold round about 41 800 Booster charges (including the five loaded into my Booster module), + ~3500 Torpedoes...
And sometimes I can feel the terrible urge to equip a cargohold expander...  I could resist it so far, but I don't know how for how long my resolve is going to last. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:21:00 -
[5652] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Cap booster charges, and it's hold is massive. Compare the 2 shield marauders to the 2 armour marauders.
Vargur & Golem - Capless weapons and the option of ASB's (capless tanking, improved by the capless bastion module)
Paladin & Kronos - Needs cap for weapons and tank, bastion module requires no cap but what does it matter if you can't run that bastion boosted repper.
Armour marauders are getting the shaft being very vulnerable to cap warfare whilst the other 2 are virtually immune.
Yes, but if you manage to lock a Vargur or Golem down long enough to force them to boost with cap, they'll dry out in seconds.
That's my point exactly, you have to wait for the Vargur/Golem to run out of charges first, all you gotta do to a Paladin/Kronos is set a Geddon on them. That extra time could be the difference between juicy killmail or backup arriving.
Seriously imbalanced, all in the name of balance. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8234
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:53:00 -
[5653] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:
And so it should considering the difference in price and training time.
Neither of those things matter in ship balance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
326
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:59:00 -
[5654] - Quote
I almost wish they'd shelve the proposed Marauder changes until the next quarterly update after Rubicon (CCP indicated they're moving to annual expansions and quarterly updates). I think it would be beneficial to see these alongside Pirate battleships and any proposed rebalancing there. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:00:00 -
[5655] - Quote
Is this how ship balancing is done? |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
140
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:02:00 -
[5656] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to. The second iteration was terrible. no, actually it was a better stab at a compromise, for those who still use their web bonuses (granted it was stupid to slap the bonus on all 4 Marauders), and T2 resists were way superior for anything 'non' solo. You still had the range buffing effect of bastion too.
I get it that you don't make use of webs, that's great for you, but your shield tanking Megathron is a gimmick, nothing more, and really won't work at all with the warp acceleration changes coming in...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:06:00 -
[5657] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I almost wish they'd shelve the proposed Marauder changes until the next quarterly update after Rubicon (CCP indicated they're moving to annual expansions and quarterly updates). I think it would be beneficial to see these alongside Pirate battleships and any proposed rebalancing there.
This is actually the best idea to come out of this thread, unless they already are rebalancing pirate bs's and just not told us yet.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:23:00 -
[5658] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Cap booster charges, and it's hold is massive. Compare the 2 shield marauders to the 2 armour marauders.
Vargur & Golem - Capless weapons and the option of ASB's (capless tanking, improved by the capless bastion module)
Paladin & Kronos - Needs cap for weapons and tank, bastion module requires no cap but what does it matter if you can't run that bastion boosted repper.
Armour marauders are getting the shaft being very vulnerable to cap warfare whilst the other 2 are virtually immune.
haha really? I find the paladin tank to be OP since it has 12000 cap and you can fit 2 x t2 ccc rigs to permarun a large armor rep. Golem tank is weak by comparison due to extreme poor cap size and the riggs are always reserve for missile rigs. with the cap nerf i dont even think golem can perma run a pith-a type med shield booster. I doubt many would use a marauder to pvp anyway |

baltec1
Bat Country
8234
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:33:00 -
[5659] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to. The second iteration was terrible. no, actually it was a better stab at a compromise, for those who still use their web bonuses (granted it was stupid to slap the bonus on all 4 Marauders), and T2 resists were way superior for anything 'non' solo. You still had the range buffing effect of bastion too. I get it that you don't make use of webs, that's great for you, but your shield tanking Megathron is a gimmick, nothing more, and really won't work at all with the warp acceleration changes coming in...
It got rid of the massive reps and resists which is the biggest selling point of these new ships in exchange for a web bonus on a ship with range bonuses. It made zero sense and its only fans are the min/max bears who only ever do level 4s. It would have been useless in pvp. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1330
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:38:00 -
[5660] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I almost wish they'd shelve the proposed Marauder changes until the next quarterly update after Rubicon (CCP indicated they're moving to annual expansions and quarterly updates). I think it would be beneficial to see these alongside Pirate battleships and any proposed rebalancing there. This is actually the best idea to come out of this thread, unless they already are rebalancing pirate bs's and just not told us yet.
It is all about a downward spiral in effectiveness in high end ships, closing the gap between the low end and high end. Do you really think these guys wrecking the Marauder are doing it in a vacuum, compared to the pirate BS's? They already have their nerfs lined up for this ships as well.
By trashing the Marauder, then can then use that as a baseline on how much they can wreck the Mach, Vindi, and Nightmare. The Rattlesnake is garbage comparatively already, (sells for half the price of the next cheapest pirate BS) so it won't be wrecked as much.
I have seen so many pilots gloating about the fact that the amour Marauders are now garbage in incursions. Going to interesting seeing their reactions when the pirate BS's are trashed.
Then they come after the Cynabal and Vigilant. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:43:00 -
[5661] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I almost wish they'd shelve the proposed Marauder changes until the next quarterly update after Rubicon (CCP indicated they're moving to annual expansions and quarterly updates). I think it would be beneficial to see these alongside Pirate battleships and any proposed rebalancing there. This is actually the best idea to come out of this thread, unless they already are rebalancing pirate bs's and just not told us yet. It is all about a downward spiral in effectiveness in high end ships, closing the gap between the low end and high end. Do you really think these guys wrecking the Marauder are doing it in a vacuum, compared to the pirate BS's? They already have their nerfs lined up for this ships as well. By trashing the Marauder, then can then use that as a baseline on how much they can wreck the Mach, Vindi, and Nightmare. The Rattlesnake is garbage comparatively already, (sells for half the price of the next cheapest pirate BS) so it won't be wrecked as much. I have seen so many pilots gloating about the fact that the amour Marauders are now garbage in incursions. Going to interesting seeing their reactions when the pirate BS's are trashed. Then they come after the Cynabal and Vigilant.
Vargurs online it is then if current changes go thru.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:16:00 -
[5662] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:By trashing the Marauder, then can then use that as a baseline on how much they can wreck the Mach, Vindi, and Nightmare. The Rattlesnake is garbage comparatively already, (sells for half the price of the next cheapest pirate BS) so it won't be wrecked as much. You're not painting a great scenario here... (not that I disagree) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:17:00 -
[5663] - Quote
I'll hold my stance.
Give marauders +50m3 drone bay, leave the bandwitdth at 50mbps.
Increase the tanking HP by 15%. +15% base shield HP for Vargur and Golem (or just a raw increase by 1500 base shield HP), +15% base armor for Paladin and Kronos (or just a raw increase by 1500 base armor HP). or, Give all marauders +1 slot. +1 low slot for shield marauders and +1 mid slot for armor marauders. This would make the ships either apply more damage, or better apply it. Also, would compensate for the lack of a web bonus for the armor marauders by giving it them the capabilities to add another web.
Give marauders proper T2 resistances (or at least the command ship version), and remove the bonus to resists from Bastion (let's face it, hull tanking is ridiculous without the bonus to the hull repper). All other bonuses, such as range (unstacked), rep bonuses for shield boosters and armor repairers, immunity to EWAR, immobility should be kept. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1331
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:25:00 -
[5664] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:I'll hold my stance.
Give marauders +50m3 drone bay, leave the bandwitdth at 50mbps.
Increase the tanking HP by 15%. +15% base shield HP for Vargur and Golem (or just a raw increase by 1500 base shield HP), +15% base armor for Paladin and Kronos (or just a raw increase by 1500 base armor HP). or, Give all marauders +1 slot. +1 low slot for shield marauders and +1 mid slot for armor marauders. This would make the ships either apply more damage, or better apply it. Also, would compensate for the lack of a web bonus for the armor marauders by giving it them the capabilities to add another web.
Give marauders proper T2 resistances (or at least the command ship version), and remove the bonus to resists from Bastion (let's face it, hull tanking is ridiculous without the bonus to the hull repper). All other bonuses, such as range (unstacked), rep bonuses for shield boosters and armor repairers, immunity to EWAR, immobility should be kept.
I agree with the additional slots. The class is facing a huge nerf in effective damage, and additional slots will mitigate that, to a certain extent.
That being said, the web nerf now means a double-webbed target is now whizzing around 15 times faster than it was. No amount of mid-slots will make up for that. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
180
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:27:00 -
[5665] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I almost wish they'd shelve the proposed Marauder changes until the next quarterly update after Rubicon (CCP indicated they're moving to annual expansions and quarterly updates). I think it would be beneficial to see these alongside Pirate battleships and any proposed rebalancing there. This is actually the best idea to come out of this thread, unless they already are rebalancing pirate bs's and just not told us yet.
Given the fact that the marauder changes are still not sorted out and it is about a month from deployment...re-balancing pirate ships and not disclosing for feedback this late wouldn't be very wise. I'd imagine they will do that in the point release. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:38:00 -
[5666] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I agree with the additional slots. The class is facing a huge nerf in effective damage, and additional slots will mitigate that, to a certain extent.
That being said, the web nerf now means a double-webbed target is now whizzing around 15 times faster than it was. No amount of mid-slots will make up for that. 99% of the suggestions in this thread are better than what CCP has proposed. That in of itself speaks volumes. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8236
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:40:00 -
[5667] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I agree with the additional slots. The class is facing a huge nerf in effective damage, and additional slots will mitigate that, to a certain extent.
That being said, the web nerf now means a double-webbed target is now whizzing around 15 times faster than it was. No amount of mid-slots will make up for that.
They have the exact same DPS and better damage application at range. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
180
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:50:00 -
[5668] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I agree with the additional slots. The class is facing a huge nerf in effective damage, and additional slots will mitigate that, to a certain extent.
That being said, the web nerf now means a double-webbed target is now whizzing around 15 times faster than it was. No amount of mid-slots will make up for that.
They have the exact same DPS and better damage application at range.
Ranged damage application has never been something battleships have lacked >.> closer damage application is, the marauders fixed this with tracking bonus and web bonus which have been removed. The worst part is the bastion mode, you go into bastion mode for one full minute....that is PLENTY time for other ships to approach and scram you rendering MJD usless and because you suck at CQ combat your ranged damage application becomes irrelevant.
I like the ideal of having a sniping T2 BS but that should have been an added class, not destroying a perfectly working class to replace it with ****. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:03:00 -
[5669] - Quote
Octoven wrote:I like the ideal of having a sniping T2 BS but that should have been an added class, not destroying a perfectly working class to replace it with ****. But where would the fun be in that?  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8237
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:04:00 -
[5670] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
I like the ideal of having a sniping T2 BS but that should have been an added class, not destroying a perfectly working class to replace it with ****.
They have never been a working class outside of missions and even then they suffered badly to E-war.
The new ships are great fun in pvp and I already have several fits ready to go in November. Webs are simply not needed as its a long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km. The ability to tank a 50 man frig gang while dishing out death is hilarious. |
|

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:08:00 -
[5671] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
I like the ideal of having a sniping T2 BS but that should have been an added class, not destroying a perfectly working class to replace it with ****.
They have never been a working class outside of missions and even then they suffered badly to E-war. The new ships are great fun in pvp and I already have several fits ready to go in November. Webs are simply not needed as its a long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km. The ability to tank a 50 man frig gang while dishing out death is hilarious.
Hell yes, can't wait.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
180
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:11:00 -
[5672] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
I like the ideal of having a sniping T2 BS but that should have been an added class, not destroying a perfectly working class to replace it with ****.
They have never been a working class outside of missions and even then they suffered badly to E-war. The new ships are great fun in pvp and I already have several fits ready to go in November. Webs are simply not needed as its a long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km. The ability to tank a 50 man frig gang while dishing out death is hilarious.
Easy enough to say when you are playing around with a grand total of 4,000 isk. Hope you enjoy the same level of "awesomeness" when its 2.5 billion on the line and blob fleets. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1331
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:16:00 -
[5673] - Quote
Octoven wrote:baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
I like the ideal of having a sniping T2 BS but that should have been an added class, not destroying a perfectly working class to replace it with ****.
They have never been a working class outside of missions and even then they suffered badly to E-war. The new ships are great fun in pvp and I already have several fits ready to go in November. Webs are simply not needed as its a long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km. The ability to tank a 50 man frig gang while dishing out death is hilarious. Easy enough to say when you are playing around with a grand total of 4,000 isk. Hope you enjoy the same level of "awesomeness" when its 2.5 billion on the line and blob fleets.
Remember the troll you are arguing with. The guy is a goon FC, whose only small gang warfare is when he runs his high sec suicide Tornado fleets.
Also remember, he does not pay for ships. goon line members get free ships, when fit to the doctrine, FC's get a whole lot more. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8239
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:19:00 -
[5674] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
Easy enough to say when you are playing around with a grand total of 4,000 isk. Hope you enjoy the same level of "awesomeness" when its 2.5 billion on the line and blob fleets.
These arn't made for big fleet fights, they are made for small scale combat and yes, I will be enjoying my billion isk hulls because, unlike you, I don't care about risking some internet spaceship pixels to have fun. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8239
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:20:00 -
[5675] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Remember the troll you are arguing with. The guy is a goon FC, whose only small gang warfare is when he runs his high sec suicide Tornado fleets.
Also remember, he does not pay for ships. goon line members get free ships, when fit to the doctrine, FC's get a whole lot more.
I'm not an FC, we don't run nado gank fleets and I pay for my own ships. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
180
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:25:00 -
[5676] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
Easy enough to say when you are playing around with a grand total of 4,000 isk. Hope you enjoy the same level of "awesomeness" when its 2.5 billion on the line and blob fleets.
These arn't made for big fleet fights, they are made for small scale combat and yes, I will be enjoying my billion isk hulls because, unlike you, I don't care about risking some internet spaceship pixels to have fun.
Yeah, but see...I could go out and buy a lamborghini and have loads of fun speeding...and of course totaling the vehicle is even more of an adrenaline rush; however, there is a big difference between stupidity and fun. Then again you strike me as the kinda of person that would go mining in an asteroid belt with a titan just for the hell of it cuz its fun. Doesn't make it any less stupid. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8240
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:35:00 -
[5677] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
Yeah, but see...I could go out and buy a lamborghini and have loads of fun speeding...and of course totaling the vehicle is even more of an adrenaline rush; however, there is a big difference between stupidity and fun. Then again you strike me as the kinda of person that would go mining in an asteroid belt with a titan just for the hell of it cuz its fun. Doesn't make it any less stupid.
Again, the isk isn't an issue. 1 bil a day is easily done several ways.
If I could earn enough to buy a lambo every day then yea, I would probably get one and take it to a track. |

NexusWatcher
Apologetic Tendencies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:35:00 -
[5678] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:NexusWatcher wrote:Serge SC wrote:Chimpface Holocaust wrote:Neut/Nos is technically Ewar so it should be covered by the Ewar immunity of the bastion module Unfortunately it doesn't. My Paladin got neuted to hell and back by a Kronos (Henry Montclair's) while on Bastion. Lost it due to lack of cap to jump away, rep or shoot. This. Tested Kronos and Golem on lvl 5 missions and the energy towers sucked me dry no time flat. Bit pointless for the bastion at that point. This also leads to it being even more useless in PvP. Bastion up, get nueted, no more tank, die. Neuts need to be reworked to be under EWar as opposed to it being categorized under engineering, but at the same time, wouldn't remote cap transfer work as well in theory? If not, then what's the damn point? I'll do some testing and post back. There needs to be a way to shut these things down for smaller gangs remember 
So true, but having it one way but not having it the same the other way clashes in that aspect.
Side note, you can solo these bad boys in lvl 5s just fine, even with neut towers as long as you have cap injectors fitted. Just stay on your toes. I was reparing over half my armor with 1 AAR and T2 armor nano rigs. DPS its still decent. Tried with neutrons and a web for giggles (on a Kronos) and it still ate everything up...now to figure out how to get in on NPCs that orbit at 75k without a propulsion system is a different thing. I'm not playing the Pythagorean theorem game. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:37:00 -
[5679] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
Easy enough to say when you are playing around with a grand total of 4,000 isk. Hope you enjoy the same level of "awesomeness" when its 2.5 billion on the line and blob fleets.
These arn't made for big fleet fights, they are made for small scale combat and yes, I will be enjoying my billion isk hulls because, unlike you, I don't care about risking some internet spaceship pixels to have fun. Ha! If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1331
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 18:25:00 -
[5680] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Remember the troll you are arguing with. The guy is a goon FC, whose only small gang warfare is when he runs his high sec suicide Tornado fleets.
Also remember, he does not pay for ships. goon line members get free ships, when fit to the doctrine, FC's get a whole lot more.
I'm not an FC, we don't run nado gank fleets and I pay for my own ships.
Right, it is another baltec running the goon megathron fleets. That would explain your continued attempts at trolling. You really are that disconnected from reality and your belief in others to read. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8240
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 18:41:00 -
[5681] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right, it is another baltec running the goon megathron fleets. That would explain your continued attempts at trolling. You really are that disconnected from reality and your belief in others to read.
Oh I see. You think because they named a fleet after me it must be because I am a FC. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 18:46:00 -
[5682] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Remember the troll you are arguing with. The guy is a goon FC, whose only small gang warfare is when he runs his high sec suicide Tornado fleets.
Also remember, he does not pay for ships. goon line members get free ships, when fit to the doctrine, FC's get a whole lot more.
I'm not an FC, we don't run nado gank fleets and I pay for my own ships. Right, it is another baltec running the goon megathron fleets. That would explain your continued attempts at trolling. You really are that disconnected from reality and your belief in others to read.
just use ignore button on him, he's a troll |

baltec1
Bat Country
8240
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 18:49:00 -
[5683] - Quote
gascanu wrote:
just use ignore button on him, he's a troll
Wrong again.
I'm the guy actually testing these things. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 18:51:00 -
[5684] - Quote
There's an ignore button?
In any case, CCP, this is by far the most discussed topic since post (5644 posts long so far). Plenty of ideas have been given, some good, some bad. People mostly want these ships to be either 1 thing or another. But one thing is certain, as of now, Marauder V2 R1 (version 2 revision 1) is basically the same as Marauder V1 R1 (making it, V1 R2) with a new module to compensate where it lacks... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 20:27:00 -
[5685] - Quote
The most disturbing problems with the Bastion are:
Absolute E-war immunity, ignores sandbox game mechanics.
Absolute RR/assistance lockout, ignores sandbox game mechanics.
Promotes halfwit play styles by ignoring mechanics and limiting choices.
Very few actually trained for a stationary bunker nor do I suspect they want one.
Bastion cycle makes it a pi+¦ata in PvP.
The active tanking bonuses it promotes are often negated by the forced immobility, active tanking was never a problem to begin with.
The ranges it promotes are negated by the immobility very quickly.
The hulls suffer nerfs making them less useful outside bastion than on live(currently this is true, could change).
But the most important of all...
Offers no additional fun/useful or engaging properties which follow the core design of Marauders being versatile and for long term deployment, a magical tractor them all module doesn't count either; These are only efforts to make things extremely easy and simple, not interesting in any way.
The more I think about it the more I dislike everything about it, I'm not saying I have the perfect solution, just that Bastion isn't even close.  |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 20:39:00 -
[5686] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:The most disturbing problems with the Bastion are:
Absolute E-war immunity, ignores sandbox game mechanics.
Absolute RR/assistance lockout, ignores sandbox game mechanics.
Promotes halfwit play styles by ignoring mechanics and limiting choices.
...
Just to address something in your post that seems rather far off: Conditional Immunities don't ignore sandbox mechanics. Trading one attribute for another in interactions is itself an acceptable sandbox mechanic. Furthermore no choices are limited so long as bastion is not mandatory. Actually, the "halfwit play styles" you mention represent increased choices rather than limit those already available. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 20:45:00 -
[5687] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:There's an ignore button?
...
click on his name >hide posts or something |

Narcotic Gryffin
Bombin Busch Wookies
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 20:57:00 -
[5688] - Quote
So many ideas so little time, a new idea crossed my mind while at work though. Basing this idea off currently proposed bastion and hull changes the idea of the bastion module is to make a long ranged tank capable ship, while simultaneously nerfing its ability to engage up close and leaving it very vulnerable in that department, I propose after reading many different ideas:
-Get rid of the tractor bonus, its still not very long and is only for pve leaving it a very limited use bonus to a "versatile ship"
-Add into the Bastion Module a Web Range bonus to help it have some chance against incoming hostiles before getting into such a short range that you are screwed. Note this won't be a web strength bonus but getting a web to say 20~30km so that there is still a chance to get those fast targets before they start orbiting you at the point you cant track them and are left with no choice but to MJD out or engage with only drones.
-Let the hulls have the t2 resist so when on the move they are still capable ships just not as tanky because they wont have the added rep bonus from bastion mode.
-Possibily make it to where incoming EWAR has a 60% chance of not working rather than complete immunity which is kinda ridiculous.
Small changes but they leave room for versatility in both pvp and pve. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 21:08:00 -
[5689] - Quote
also it seems that if you dced while in bastion your ship will not ewarp, so if you are not fast to log back in you are pretty much dead... |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1331
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 23:14:00 -
[5690] - Quote
Another reason why so few will use this bastion mess outside of high sec:
Assume you are in space that is not a secure null sec enclave. Now, you enter an anom/plex/site/whatever. Are you REALLY going to immobilize yourself for a full minute PLUS another minute of unable to dock/jump, knowing that interceptors can now traverse 3 jumps in a minute?
Sure, those groups with awesome intel networks that have complete knowledge on non-neutral movement, they can have the luxury of hitting brick mode. No one else in non-high sec can.
And high sec, if not war-decced. Oh, and of course, also if you are not worried about gankers. Because remember how we keep hearing from gankers "it's your fault I ganked you, because you did not fly aligned". Well, guess what, that concept goes bye bye.
So anyone who flies a Marauder with any nice modules on it would be flat nuts to turn it on anywhere near a prime mission hub. Unless of of course, not only do you fit a repper but ALSO a plate.
The entire concept of the bastion mode is just plain dumb. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 23:52:00 -
[5691] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Another reason why so few will use this bastion mess outside of high sec:
Because Marauders are all over low and nullsec now?
IF CCP wants them in PvP and these changes do nothing to encourage that, what exactly has changed?
Are the SiSi versions less effective than the current iterations?
They're different, assuredly, but effectiveness can be argued back and forth (ad nauseaum). Are they more vulnerable to ganking than current versions? Are they weaker? Are they slower isk makers?
I don't think so. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:03:00 -
[5692] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Because Marauders are all over low and nullsec now? I think the point was that this aspect should be worked on to encourage their use outside of high-sec. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:13:00 -
[5693] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Just to address something in your post that seems rather far off: Conditional Immunities don't ignore sandbox mechanics. Trading one attribute for another in interactions is itself an acceptable sandbox mechanic. Furthermore no choices are limited so long as bastion is not mandatory.
I am directly aiming my critique at the Bastion and what using it entails, moving away from the bastion as the center of the topic and saying that not using it is an alternative solution is missing the point and as it happens, not true. Bastion will be mandatory, the mobility of Marauders among other things is already being nerfed, so choices are in fact being limited. Anyone planning not to use the Bastion will find any faction/pirate ship will easily outperform Marauders; Marauders are deliberately being designed around the Bastion and you will have a hard time not using it because of the costs in the balancing.
Additionally, my gripe with the Bastion is not the idea that it isn't usable for at least something like gimmick PvP, it is that the module has severe flaws and it should be abolished as it currently is being presented, more so due to the fact it presents no actual interesting or fun mechanics to speak of when speaking of following the Marauder role.
Immunities:
Conditional immunities ignore the very idea of having established mechanics which exist have any effect on the results, which means you have balanced E-war for the whole game but then decide to circumvent this mechanic by a simple conditional rule which states, here the rules don't apply, effectively creating a second rule, every immunity is another rule and exception added to the first.
Would you support missiles which always applied full damage through a conditional and ignored signature radius/exp velocity? No you wouldn't, exact same thing, the proper way to do it is to follow mechanics in a relatively reasonable manner.
If in this case E-war is too powerful then rebalance it, revisit the mechanics and alter them to function as intended, just do not create new ways to avoid the problems.
E-war immunity ignores the sandbox mechanics for E-war, which is a use for sensor strength to determine efficiency, if there was a legit suggestion they would give Marauders a relatively high sensor strength in Bastion and not just outright cut them out from the sandbox in that specific area; Sandbox mechanics rely on the fact that they apply without selective interpretation causing meta rule sets, effectively destroying the whole concept in the process.
RR/assistance lockout ignores the idea of partaking in more complex parts of multiplayer gaming, it is a counterproductive limitation at best, promoting locked out solo play is out of touch with the whole concept of MMOs regardless of the fact if it is ignoring how RR works with mere conditionals.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Actually, the "halfwit play styles" you mention represent increased choices rather than limit those already available.
Again, if you won't be using Bastion then you'll be better off in other ships by default, there is no choice between having the Bastion module or not, it is a choice between Bastion Marauder and Pirate Battleship, the live Marauders will no longer exist.
If you're even remotely interested in fluent mobility and kiting you will pick a Pirate Battleship.
The only choice you are getting with Bastion is, will I deploy here and die or win?
You are getting this one choice to substitute all the mobile intricacies of EVE combat, E-war threats and even quite simply the consequences of taking damage in many situations, successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways
The Ignoring of the whole concept of support in terms of remote assistance in situations where you should have need for it is one of the greatest flaws in Bastion design, when you are deployed.
It literally defines the idea of picking the worst of all possible scenarios into one module currently.
The Bastion undeniably promotes poor play styles, it throws every common sense defensive or offensive maneuver/adjustment out of the window and simplifies everything.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:38:00 -
[5694] - Quote
To be fair, with the bastion module you'd be an absolute dutz to fit fancy tank modules on it because T2 will give you more tank that you will ever need in ANY lv4 mission. Thus you will now not be a ganker's loot pinyata. The poor pirate battleships though, they still need those dedspace and faction tank modules.
The ewar immunity is nice for the larger shansha/sentis/guirista missions that has a lot of ewar. Quite a few missions have gates/objectives stupidly far away so the mjd bonus is nice. I never used more than a set of lights and a set of mediums anyways so drones are fine if we at least have 50/75 (50/100 would be extra nice so I can carry salvage drones)
I am however sad panda over the minuscule boost in range the Vargur will get and fitting arty seems unappealing from a dps perspective as I remember running an arty mael.
Sounds like the Palladin got the best deal and the vargur the worst. Not sure about the Kronos but the Golem is way better off than people seem to realize now that it can fit MORE mid slot stuff (paints and webs) to kill cruisers easier. I used to fly a RNI as well and the elite cruisers were always the problem but volley counting isn't my thing. Never used torps much though so can't comment on torp golem but it would seem to be able to fare a lot better as well.
Still I guess I can fit a paint in place of a tank module and switch to tracking scripts and that should help my damage application a bit and I'll make better use of the range bonus on bastion.
At the very least it's something NEW and DIFFERENT for people who've never flown a carrier/dread and even IF! it fails it is worth trying something new as that is the only way forward. Capsuleers are pretty resourcefull. If there is a use for it in PvP or null/low they will find it even if it is just to bait cap fleets. Anyone know what is the most absurd T2/cheap tank you can fit on it now (ASB/AAR/Invuls/adaptive/etc.) ? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:49:00 -
[5695] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Just to address something in your post that seems rather far off: Conditional Immunities don't ignore sandbox mechanics. Trading one attribute for another in interactions is itself an acceptable sandbox mechanic. Furthermore no choices are limited so long as bastion is not mandatory.
I am directly aiming my critique at the Bastion and what using it entails, moving away from the bastion as the center of the topic and saying that not using it is an alternative solution is missing the point and as it happens, not true. Bastion will be mandatory, the mobility of Marauders among other things is already being nerfed, so choices are in fact being limited. Anyone planning not to use the Bastion will find any faction/pirate ship will easily outperform Marauders; Marauders are deliberately being designed around the Bastion and you will have a hard time not using it because of the costs in the balancing. Additionally, my gripe with the Bastion is not the idea that it isn't usable for at least something like gimmick PvP, it is that the module has severe flaws and it should be abolished as it currently is being presented, more so due to the fact it presents no actual interesting or fun mechanics to speak of when speaking of following the Marauder role. Immunities:Conditional immunities ignore the very idea of having established mechanics which exist have any effect on the results, which means you have balanced E-war for the whole game but then decide to circumvent this mechanic by a simple conditional rule which states, here the rules don't apply, effectively creating a second rule, every immunity is another rule and exception added to the first. Would you support missiles which always applied full damage through a conditional and ignored signature radius/exp velocity? No you wouldn't, exact same thing, the proper way to do it is to follow mechanics in a relatively reasonable manner.If in this case E-war is too powerful then rebalance it, revisit the mechanics and alter them to function as intended, just do not create new ways to avoid the problems. E-war immunity ignores the sandbox mechanics for E-war, which is a use for sensor strength to determine efficiency, if there was a legit suggestion they would give Marauders a relatively high sensor strength in Bastion and not just outright cut them out from the sandbox in that specific area; Sandbox mechanics rely on the fact that they apply without selective interpretation causing meta rule sets, effectively destroying the whole concept in the process. RR/assistance lockout ignores the idea of partaking in more complex parts of multiplayer gaming, it is a counterproductive limitation at best, promoting locked out solo play is out of touch with the whole concept of MMOs regardless of the fact if it is ignoring how RR works with mere conditionals. Tyberius Franklin wrote: Actually, the "halfwit play styles" you mention represent increased choices rather than limit those already available.
Again, if you won't be using Bastion then you'll be better off in other ships by default, there is no choice between having the Bastion module or not, it is a choice between Bastion Marauder and Pirate Battleship, the live Marauders will no longer exist. If you're even remotely interested in fluent mobility and kiting you will pick a Pirate Battleship.The only choice you are getting with Bastion is, will I deploy here and die or win? You are getting this one choice to substitute all the mobile intricacies of EVE combat, E-war threats and even quite simply the consequences of taking damage in many situations, successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways The Ignoring of the whole concept of support in terms of remote assistance in situations where you should have need for it is one of the greatest flaws in Bastion design, when you are deployed.It literally defines the idea of picking the worst of all possible scenarios into one module currently. The Bastion undeniably promotes poor play styles, it throws every common sense defensive or offensive maneuver/adjustment out of the window and simplifies everything.
Soooo.... What about Dreads and Triage Carriers? Since it is so similar then all of this ranting and raving applies to them as well right? Are you in fact calling for Siege and Triage to be removed as well or is it ok because it's confined to low/null/WH? Does Dreads and Carriers Reduce the Sandboxieness of this game?
Sandbox is all about choice and choosing to use a Bastion Marauder is a valid choice in that context as is completely true to the game being Sandbox. Now weather the Basiton Marauser is OP and UP might indeed be very valid concerns and those should be brought to the attention of CCP after proper testing.
The only thing I DO agree with is theres no point in running the marauder without the bastion. I ran a Marauder because I could salvage and loot at the same time. I do not really do LP stuff so the loot and salvage has always been more important than running more missions faster without.
It's a CHOICE and this change makes that choice a lot more interesting with new pros and cons and hopefully new tools (traktor structure) to work with people's play styles. I do not begrudge people choosing Pirate BS.
Don't be afraid of the new or the change. That's what keeps eve alive.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1550
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:51:00 -
[5696] - Quote
280 pages..
I think this proves quite definitively which player group is the loudest... BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:52:00 -
[5697] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Another reason why so few will use this bastion mess outside of high sec: Are the SiSi versions less effective than the current iterations? They're different, assuredly, but effectiveness can be argued back and forth (ad nauseaum). Are they more vulnerable to ganking than current versions? Are they weaker? Are they slower isk makers? .
They are quite a bit more tanky; On 1v1 engagement, they can outlast most battleship while shredding similar targets. But they're in no means solo pvp ships. Also, sisi pvp is not the same as TQ pvp. Can't tell honestly how they'd fare...
They have a somewhat smaller buffer tank, relying almost entirely on resists to tank, resists coming from Bastion.
In high-sec, they're not that vulnerable, with those resists, you could tank some ships until concord arrives. It would be dumb, thought to be out of bastion if getting ganked, unless you're already ready to warp.
Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 00:56:00 -
[5698] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Because Marauders are all over low and nullsec now? I think the point was that this aspect should be worked on to encourage their use outside of high-sec.
What is the biggest hangup to them being used in PvP?
In fact, in terms of BS hulls, what are the most common used in PvP, small, large, blob, whatever? Are ANY of top 10 more than 200 million ISK? I have no idea, but I'm going to guess NO.
The biggest hangup to seeing billion ISK hulls in PvP? Billion ISK hulls.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:08:00 -
[5699] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Not sure about the Kronos but the Golem is way better off than people seem to realize now that it can fit MORE mid slot stuff (paints and webs) to kill cruisers easier. I wouldn't say the Golem is better off. That web bonus is about as useful as screen doors on the bridge...
Garviel Tarrant wrote:280 pages.. I think this proves quite definitively which player group is the most ignored... There, fixed it for you. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:30:00 -
[5700] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: ... Don't be afraid of the new or the change. That's what keeps eve alive. ...
I am for change, when it is well thought through and carefully planned without causing a whole ship class to become something entirely different and quite opposite of what people have used them for, because of a gimmick module and the balance costs it requires. I have legitimate concerns because I actually fly a Marauder since a while now and have absolutely no desire to sit in an immobile bunker or a sluggish pretend Marauder when these changes are launched.
Anize Oramara wrote: Soooo.... What about Dreads and Triage Carriers? Since it is so similar then all of this ranting and raving applies to them as well right? Are you in fact calling for Siege and Triage to be removed as well or is it ok because it's confined to low/null/WH? Does Dreads and Carriers Reduce the Sandboxieness of this game?
Soooo.... you decided to just address the whole post whilst imagining it was about something else entirely, dreads to be precise, brilliant, I am truly impressed.
My "rant" has nothing to do with dreads nor what they do, I've even mentioned previously that the Bastion could be workable for some other ship, just not the Marauder because it just doesn't fit.
I'm addressing Marauders which are being pigeon holed into a bunker role, I loathe the very idea the way it is being done, to a previously quite speedy and versatile ship in my case, the Vargur. I've been waiting and hoping for further progressive iteration on it with no avail, so I now explained my POV in hopes of them actually realizing that maybe the Bastion Marauder isn't a good idea.
You do understand that I and many others who do not wish to sit pinned to space will instead need to move from the Vargur etc. to the pirate ships instead, Machariel for example, just because of this change.
I will no longer be able to fly the ship I trained for because it is being turned into something completely different which I do not wish to bunker in.
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|

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:35:00 -
[5701] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote: I am directly aiming my critique at the Bastion and what using it entails, moving away from the bastion as the center of the topic and saying that not using it is an alternative solution is missing the point and as it happens, not true. Bastion will be mandatory, the mobility of Marauders among other things is already being nerfed, so choices are in fact being limited. Anyone planning not to use the Bastion will find any faction/pirate ship will easily outperform Marauders; Marauders are deliberately being designed around the Bastion and you will have a hard time not using it because of the costs in the balancing.
The hull issues have been acknowledged and we will see what becomes of that, but that neither detracts nor adds to my response to you.
SOL Ranger wrote: Additionally, my gripe with the Bastion is not the idea that it isn't usable for at least something like gimmick PvP, it is that the module has severe flaws and it should be abolished as it currently is being presented, more so due to the fact it presents no actual interesting or fun mechanics to speak of when speaking of following the Marauder role.
Immunities:
Conditional immunities ignore the very idea of having established mechanics which exist have any effect on the results, which means you have balanced E-war for the whole game but then decide to circumvent this mechanic by a simple conditional rule which states, here the rules don't apply, effectively creating a second rule, every immunity is another rule and exception added to the first.
Would you support missiles which always applied full damage through a conditional and ignored signature radius/exp velocity? No you wouldn't, exact same thing, the proper way to do it is to follow mechanics in a relatively reasonable manner.
If in this case E-war is too powerful then rebalance it, revisit the mechanics and alter them to function as intended, just do not create new ways to avoid the problems.
E-war immunity ignores the sandbox mechanics for E-war, which is a use for sensor strength to determine efficiency, if there was a legit suggestion they would give Marauders a relatively high sensor strength in Bastion and not just outright cut them out from the sandbox in that specific area; Sandbox mechanics rely on the fact that they apply without selective interpretation causing meta rule sets, effectively destroying the whole concept in the process.
RR/assistance lockout ignores the idea of partaking in more complex parts of multiplayer gaming, it is a counterproductive limitation at best, promoting locked out solo play is out of touch with the whole concept of MMOs regardless of the fact if it is ignoring how RR works with mere conditionals.
I seem to be missing the statement of Ewar being to powerful. If it was you are correct that adding a module to a single line of ships is as much of a non-solution as they come. So correct that I would challenge the idea that it's even remotely reasonable to correlate the introduction of bastion with the strength of ewar as a whole.
That aside, conditional immunities again do not negate sandbox effects. When properly applied they give up one thing for another, forcing choices which give rise to new interactions. The Bastion accomplishes this. A meta rule set is similarly not an issue as it only creates more dynamic interactions. Rather it's the range of existing conditional rules that provide variety and purpose to the existing elements in game. And just because an interaction can be negated under isolated circumstances doesn't mean that any sandbox element is negated. The sandbox element is simply being free to choose tools to fit your purpose and use them to the best of your ability. Giving more tools means more interactions.
And if conditional rules is an issue that means we have a lot to remove that is already in game, among them triage carriers which already prevent incoming RR yet have found their place within the sandbox without complaint.
SOL Ranger wrote: Again, if you won't be using Bastion then you'll be better off in other ships by default, there is no choice between having the Bastion module or not, it is a choice between Bastion Marauder and Pirate Battleship, the live Marauders will no longer exist.
If you're even remotely interested in fluent mobility and kiting you will pick a Pirate Battleship.
The only choice you are getting with Bastion is, will I deploy here and die or win?
You are getting this one choice to substitute all the mobile intricacies of EVE combat, E-war threats and even quite simply the consequences of taking damage in many situations, successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways
The Ignoring of the whole concept of support in terms of remote assistance in situations where you should have need for it is one of the greatest flaws in Bastion design, when you are deployed.
It literally defines the idea of picking the worst of all possible scenarios into one module currently.
The Bastion undeniably promotes poor play styles, it throws every common sense defensive or offensive maneuver/adjustment out of the window and simplifies everything.
You are greatly oversimplifying what can be done with the bastion + MJD combo alone much less combining this ships abilities with others. And that is before the potential aspects being returned to the hulls. |

The Ironfist
Nordgoetter Insidious Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:37:00 -
[5702] - Quote
Anyone who thinks this will make em viable for PVP is rather stupid. Why? 750+mil price tag in for that you get what? A ship that without a bastion mode will be less then it is now? ****** resists useless bonus's. Worst of all bastion mode does not add anything meaningful to the ship the resists and stuff are nice but falloff/optimal ? really?
If someone ever uses that kind of ship with bastion modes outside of highsec I'll be the first to throw dreads on it and watch em make nice explosions. 1 Minute is more then enough time to light a cyno and kill 2 of these per dread.. o7 A "pvp" ship exclusively for high-sec good fight fossi I expected more. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:58:00 -
[5703] - Quote
Don't get too excited about moving to the Pirate battleships; those are no doubt up on the chopping block next... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 02:03:00 -
[5704] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: You are greatly oversimplifying what can be done with the bastion + MJD combo alone much less combining this ships abilities with others. And that is before the potential aspects being returned to the hulls.
You can jump around by 100km every minute, not a great feature in itself, it needs refining as well.
In PvP that amounts to nothing as it will take 10s after the moment you've clicked bastion and you're not going to jump anywhere except the hospital bed, fleet tactics with these will be rare if at all. In PvE that provides nothing because you will be sitting put all the time until everything is killed, the Bastion overtank guarantees that, why jump around when you don't need to, other BS without the mindless tank of Bastion will actually use their MJD actively though.
I'm not really oversimplifying.
I agree that what CCP might bring back to the hulls might make the situation less dire, however I contest the very nature of the Bastion.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 02:38:00 -
[5705] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:I agree that what CCP might bring back to the hulls might make the situation less dire, however I contest the very nature of the Bastion. What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:01:00 -
[5706] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:I agree that what CCP might bring back to the hulls might make the situation less dire, however I contest the very nature of the Bastion. What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed?
That would help vargur to bypass bastion module altogether it simply doesn't benefit from it in way of dps projection,at best it got back what TE nerf took away from it and in any situation where enemies are not throwing them self on your anchored guns bastion is nerf to Vargur DPS not buff.
It lost speed agility drones hull points for 5km range and immobile over tank some ppl just don't see that as benefit and when ppl realize that their new marauders are performing worse there will be some scratching on head of wtf happened. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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SOL Ranger
SOL.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:05:00 -
[5707] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: ... For instance as I understand Bastion does not protect against cap warfare yet you claim tanking need only concern cap management before bastion. ...
Lets be clear, I did not claim that bastion tanking wasn't vulnerable to capacitor warfare, I strictly stated when only tanking damage it required no real active management, simply because it is so efficient and effective.
SOL Ranger wrote: ...successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways
The stronger your tank is the less cap intensive it will be to stay alive in most engagements, this does not alter the effect of capacitor warfare nor was it meant as a comment on it.
You will not run out of capacitor unless you leave an XL booster running, you could just as easily tank PvE with a smaller cap stable booster and never think about the tanking again, never needing to look at the capacitor status nor at your HP, never needing to worry about moving to kite or avoid more damage, everything is tanked by automation as long as you activate the booster and sit in Bastion.
Zombie Mode, aka. Bastion. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:12:00 -
[5708] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed?
Last note I read was about confirming drones might need some more space +50m3 and something about checking what else might be reintroduced, so still waiting. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:16:00 -
[5709] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Last note I read was about confirming drones might need some more space +50m3 and something about checking what else might be reintroduced, so still waiting. T2 resists would be nice. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8244
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:57:00 -
[5710] - Quote
The Ironfist wrote:Anyone who thinks this will make em viable for PVP is rather stupid. Why? 750+mil price tag in for that you get what? A ship that without a bastion mode will be less then it is now? ****** resists useless bonus's. Worst of all bastion mode does not add anything meaningful to the ship the resists and stuff are nice but falloff/optimal ? really?
If someone ever uses that kind of ship with bastion modes outside of highsec I'll be the first to throw dreads on it and watch em make nice explosions. 1 Minute is more then enough time to light a cyno and kill 2 of these per dread.. o7 A "pvp" ship exclusively for high-sec good fight fossi I expected more.
We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null, a ship that gets 60km range with blasters, a ship that is able to re-position itself 100km from its target while keeping lock faster than any other battleship. They are very effective snipers both in and out of bastion. Its a ship you cannot jam, damp or tracking disrupt which is going to be very important come November.
Individually, the Golem is going to be the biggest winner because of the light and rapid launchers which allows it to engage smaller sized ships. A light rapid launcher/neut Golem rips apart frigate/destroyer gangs of up to 30 solo. In gangs the rail Kronos when coupled with the new E-war frigs can snipe enemy tackle out of the sky long before they can get anywhere near and then whittle down larger buffer fit ships (canes HACs etc) while being able to dictate range or just sit there and tank them.
A 1 billion price tag is nothing. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
8244
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 04:01:00 -
[5711] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:280 pages..
I think this proves quite definitively which player group is the loudest...
They scream the loudest yet the test these ships the least. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 04:13:00 -
[5712] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null What about mid-size gangs? (ie: cruisers) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8244
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 04:32:00 -
[5713] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null What about mid-size gangs? (ie: cruisers)
The new Rapid heavies for the Golem.
Blaster and rail Kronos does just fine with the support of a small gang of E-war frigs. My favorite is a Kronos, two webbing bonused frigs, a scimi or two and combat rooks. Rail Kronos kills their frigates/destroyers at range and then the rooks and kronos get to play at close range. A pair of rail Kronos deployed 80km apart can cover each other. I can easily see them being used by big fleets to cover bubbled gates and stations when locking down a system.
Pulse do well on the paladin but it can also use beams as a full blown sniper.
Haven't tested the Vargur as I don't like auto cannons or arty. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 04:33:00 -
[5714] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The new Rapid heavies for the Golem. Question re: Bastion. Does it cycle continuously once you activate it? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8244
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 04:41:00 -
[5715] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:The new Rapid heavies for the Golem. Question re: Bastion. Does it cycle continuously once you activate it?
To date my fights have lasted less than a minute or I needed to re-position myself so I cant honestly say. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
450
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 04:50:00 -
[5716] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Ironfist wrote:Anyone who thinks this will make em viable for PVP is rather stupid. Why? 750+mil price tag in for that you get what? A ship that without a bastion mode will be less then it is now? ****** resists useless bonus's. Worst of all bastion mode does not add anything meaningful to the ship the resists and stuff are nice but falloff/optimal ? really?
If someone ever uses that kind of ship with bastion modes outside of highsec I'll be the first to throw dreads on it and watch em make nice explosions. 1 Minute is more then enough time to light a cyno and kill 2 of these per dread.. o7 A "pvp" ship exclusively for high-sec good fight fossi I expected more. We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null, a ship that gets 60km range with blasters, a ship that is able to re-position itself 100km from its target while keeping lock faster than any other battleship. They are very effective snipers both in and out of bastion. Its a ship you cannot jam, damp or tracking disrupt which is going to be very important come November. Individually, the Golem is going to be the biggest winner because of the light and rapid launchers which allows it to engage smaller sized ships. A light rapid launcher/neut Golem rips apart frigate/destroyer gangs of up to 30 solo. In gangs the rail Kronos when coupled with the new E-war frigs can snipe enemy tackle out of the sky long before they can get anywhere near and then whittle down larger buffer fit ships (canes HACs etc) while being able to dictate range or just sit there and tank them. A 1 billion price tag is nothing.
100km every 70 seconds using MJD & Bastion. I say 70 because you have to wait for the MJD to activate also. So.... you are going at.... 1429m/s. A 100MN Machariel goes 1505m/s A Machariel is able to dictate range BETTER than a Bastion using Marauder. It also has superior damage (25% infact assuming BS 5). And is able to actually adjust rather than being locked into situations. And can be remote repped. And has 100 drone bandwidth making heavies/sentries practical as well as room for spare lights.
The Marauder.... Can be immune to Ewar, but gives up any chance of avoiding tackle by any means other than killing them. And can't use mobility to negate any kind of tackle transversal. It does have superior local reps, which give it a small niche role in tiny gang sizes, but it doesn't scale up at all and any kind of logi give just as much rep power.
The current Bastion mode is not workable. And the hull nerfs when not in Bastion mode mean the hull becomes useless. Even if they restore everything but the drone bay back to current TQ status, these ships STILL do not measure up. They do not have the meaningful DPS in or out of Bastion to be worth their price tag. Nor is their mobility any better than most other BS. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8245
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:01:00 -
[5717] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
100km every 70 seconds using MJD & Bastion. I say 70 because you have to wait for the MJD to activate also. So.... you are going at.... 1429m/s. A 100MN Machariel goes 1505m/s A Machariel is able to dictate range BETTER than a Bastion using Marauder. It also has superior damage (25% infact assuming BS 5). And is able to actually adjust rather than being locked into situations. And can be remote repped. And has 100 drone bandwidth making heavies/sentries practical as well as room for spare lights.
The Marauder.... Can be immune to Ewar, but gives up any chance of avoiding tackle by any means other than killing them. And can't use mobility to negate any kind of tackle transversal. It does have superior local reps, which give it a small niche role in tiny gang sizes, but it doesn't scale up at all and any kind of logi give just as much rep power.
The current Bastion mode is not workable. And the hull nerfs when not in Bastion mode mean the hull becomes useless. Even if they restore everything but the drone bay back to current TQ status, these ships STILL do not measure up. They do not have the meaningful DPS in or out of Bastion to be worth their price tag. Nor is their mobility any better than most other BS.
Firstly, the mach is getting nerfed, most likely in the next few weeks.
Secondly, these are not large gang ships, they are meant for smaller gang work.
DPS is in line or better than t1 BS with better damage application at longer ranges. slap some webs on that mach and suddenly its not moving all that fast, keeping range on it will be easy and given that they sport buffer tanks you can just munch away at it. It will die long before you run out of reps. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
450
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:09:00 -
[5718] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Firstly, the mach is getting nerfed, most likely in the next few weeks.
Secondly, these are not large gang ships, they are meant for smaller gang work.
DPS is in line or better than t1 BS with better damage application at longer ranges. slap some webs on that mach and suddenly its not moving all that fast, keeping range on it will be easy and given that they sport buffer tanks you can just munch away at it. It will die long before you run out of reps.
Please show me how a Marauder is better DPS than a T1 BS, given most T1 BS have larger drone bays. Also, if you can web the mach, it can scram & web you back, meaning no MJD, and you are still slower than the Mach at that point. So, no, neither of those points are applicable. Additionally if it has buffer tank, that's because it has Logi with it, while in Bastion mode, you can only use local reps. If it's solo, it's not going to be buffer tanking. Meaning your better reps are up against it's better DPS. Ok, in a straight up firefight in bastion mode you might 'just' outshoot a Mach assuming you are both equally fit. But the Mach will have plenty of time to disengage and escape if that is the case. While you in the Marauder do not. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
450
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:23:00 -
[5719] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Please show me how a Marauder is better DPS than a T1 BS, given most T1 BS have larger drone bays. Also, if you can web the mach, it can scram & web you back, meaning no MJD, and you are still slower than the Mach at that point. So, no, neither of those points are applicable. Additionally if it has buffer tank, that's because it has Logi with it, while in Bastion mode, you can only use local reps. If it's solo, it's not going to be buffer tanking. Meaning your better reps are up against it's better DPS. Ok, in a straight up firefight in bastion mode you might 'just' outshoot a Mach assuming you are both equally fit. But the Mach will have plenty of time to disengage and escape if that is the case. While you in the Marauder do not.
90% of the time you don't launch drones when in a BS in a small gang aside from lights. When sniping you don't tend to have any due to the ranges. The firepower is exactly the same from the turrets/missiles or a little better but with better damage application at longer ranges. Show me a mach with 75.9km webs before bonuses. No mach I have ever seen fits an active tank outside of pve. Its too cap hungry, requires too much fitting room, provides too little buffer and is far too easy to cap out. Show me a Marauder with 75.9km web before bonuses. In any situation where the Marauder can web the mach, the Mach can web & scram the Marauder. Additionally all your arguments against active tank apply equally to the Marauders active tank. Though the ASB does of course not cap out. But that's a whole other story, and not one two of the marauders can make any use of anyway. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
198
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:23:00 -
[5720] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:
100km every 70 seconds using MJD & Bastion. I say 70 because you have to wait for the MJD to activate also. So.... you are going at.... 1429m/s. A 100MN Machariel goes 1505m/s A Machariel is able to dictate range BETTER than a Bastion using Marauder. It also has superior damage (25% infact assuming BS 5). And is able to actually adjust rather than being locked into situations. And can be remote repped. And has 100 drone bandwidth making heavies/sentries practical as well as room for spare lights.
The Marauder.... Can be immune to Ewar, but gives up any chance of avoiding tackle by any means other than killing them. And can't use mobility to negate any kind of tackle transversal. It does have superior local reps, which give it a small niche role in tiny gang sizes, but it doesn't scale up at all and any kind of logi give just as much rep power.
The current Bastion mode is not workable. And the hull nerfs when not in Bastion mode mean the hull becomes useless. Even if they restore everything but the drone bay back to current TQ status, these ships STILL do not measure up. They do not have the meaningful DPS in or out of Bastion to be worth their price tag. Nor is their mobility any better than most other BS.
Firstly, the mach is getting nerfed, most likely in the next few weeks. Secondly, these are not large gang ships, they are meant for smaller gang work. DPS is in line or better than t1 BS with better damage application at longer ranges. slap some webs on that mach and suddenly its not moving all that fast, keeping range on it will be easy and given that they sport buffer tanks you can just munch away at it. It will die long before you run out of reps.
BTW, did they ever say when they were gonna start pirate BS rebalanced officially yet? (I assume not, but didn't know if I just missed it)
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baltec1
Bat Country
8246
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:37:00 -
[5721] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Show me a Marauder with 75.9km web before bonuses. In any situation where the Marauder can web the mach, the Mach can web & scram the Marauder.
You use a Hyena.
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Additionally all your arguments against active tank apply equally to the Marauders active tank. Though the ASB does of course not cap out. But that's a whole other story, and not one two of the marauders can make any use of anyway.
Wrong again.
The kronos gets 37.5% more repping power than the mach with an added 100% while in bastion. The problems an active mach faces are not issues for the marauders. An active tanking mach trying to MWD towards a bastioned kronos with just one hyena is going to die or be forced off, either way it will burn through a good chunk of its cap boosters. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8246
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:38:00 -
[5722] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:
BTW, did they ever say when they were gonna start pirate BS rebalanced officially yet? (I assume not, but didn't know if I just missed it)
This winter is all they narrowed it down to. I would expect them to pop up sometime in the next week or so. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
450
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 05:47:00 -
[5723] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Show me a Marauder with 75.9km web before bonuses. In any situation where the Marauder can web the mach, the Mach can web & scram the Marauder.
You use a Hyena. Nevyn Auscent wrote: Additionally all your arguments against active tank apply equally to the Marauders active tank. Though the ASB does of course not cap out. But that's a whole other story, and not one two of the marauders can make any use of anyway.
Wrong again. The kronos gets 37.5% more repping power than the mach with an added 100% while in bastion. The problems an active mach faces are not issues for the marauders. An active tanking mach trying to MWD towards a bastioned kronos with just one hyena is going to die or be forced off, either way it will burn through a good chunk of its cap boosters. And then the Mach uses a Hyena also. If you want to add other ships in, it works both ways as well. The end result is that you are putting the Marauder into it's perfect jump/snipe scenario and the Mach is pretty much equalling it. Yet this is supposed to be where the Marauders shine the best. Now lets put the Marauder into the Machs other roles, and see how much it struggles. The answer is a huge amount.
This means the Marauder is not good enough to see significant use as it stands and they need to significantly strengthen the base hull outside of Bastion mode to get towards the Marauder being practical to use. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8246
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 06:35:00 -
[5724] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then the Mach uses a Hyena also. If you want to add other ships in, it works both ways as well.
And do what? Web me in my stationary ship? If anything it will help me to align when I go to use my mjd!
Nevyn Auscent wrote: The end result is that you are putting the Marauder into it's perfect jump/snipe scenario and the Mach is pretty much equalling it. Yet this is supposed to be where the Marauders shine the best. Now lets put the Marauder into the Machs other roles, and see how much it struggles. The answer is a huge amount.
Thats because these ships are made for different jobs.
Nevyn Auscent wrote: This means the Marauder is not good enough to see significant use as it stands and they need to significantly strengthen the base hull outside of Bastion mode to get towards the Marauder being practical to use.
Only if you are trying to use it for the wrong job like you are. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
450
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 06:38:00 -
[5725] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: And then the Mach uses a Hyena also. If you want to add other ships in, it works both ways as well.
And do what? Web me in my stationary ship? If anything it will help me to align when I go to use my mjd! Nevyn Auscent wrote: The end result is that you are putting the Marauder into it's perfect jump/snipe scenario and the Mach is pretty much equalling it. Yet this is supposed to be where the Marauders shine the best. Now lets put the Marauder into the Machs other roles, and see how much it struggles. The answer is a huge amount.
Thats because these ships are made for different jobs. Nevyn Auscent wrote: This means the Marauder is not good enough to see significant use as it stands and they need to significantly strengthen the base hull outside of Bastion mode to get towards the Marauder being practical to use.
Only if you are trying to use it for the wrong job like you are. Scram you so you can't MJD... Thats what my Hyena will do. And web you so you are even slower than your already slow pace. Yes, they are made for different jobs. But the Machariel is almost as good at the Marauders job as the Marauder is. While the Marauder sucks at the Machariels job. Meaning overall the Marauder is significantly a worse ship. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
528
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:17:00 -
[5726] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote: I will behave like a spoiled three year old toddler because CCP doesn't give me exactly what I want.
There, fixed that for you.
That's the impression that your post and most other posts that are like yours leave behind.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8246
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:18:00 -
[5727] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Scram you so you can't MJD... Thats what my Hyena will do. And web you so you are even slower than your already slow pace. Yes, they are made for different jobs. But the Machariel is almost as good at the Marauders job as the Marauder is. While the Marauder sucks at the Machariels job. Meaning overall the Marauder is significantly a worse ship.
Web incoming hyena with ours, pop it at range with the rails, put both webs on the mach.
Again, please show us the mach that can match the tank, resists and extra range of the new kronos. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:26:00 -
[5728] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Scram you so you can't MJD... Thats what my Hyena will do. And web you so you are even slower than your already slow pace. Yes, they are made for different jobs. But the Machariel is almost as good at the Marauders job as the Marauder is. While the Marauder sucks at the Machariels job. Meaning overall the Marauder is significantly a worse ship.
Web incoming hyena with ours, pop it at range with the rails, put both webs on the mach. Again, please show us the mach that can match the tank, resists and extra range of the new kronos.
dude, you keep saying about using ew frigs and "dedicate frig killers" with your bastioned marauder... do you even think there is someone outhere that will go for your marauder instead of killing your support first? you are bastioned, you can't go anywhere, ppl will just kill your support first... and them tell me again how will you point/web them so you can be able to kill them.... |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:28:00 -
[5729] - Quote
Hi, i think bastion module is fun, bout taking away bonus web from kronos and paladin sux :( it's kiling it as strong solo pvp boat : ( same goes for paladin. way not just get rid of capasito bonus of paladin and add this optimal : |
They are kinda good, and there is not much to change peps were flaying them for years, i was looking forward to fly them too in pvp \o/
I think i am not going to fly them after the patch : (
keep up the good work tho : ))
your faithfully H.B. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8247
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:29:00 -
[5730] - Quote
gascanu wrote:
dude, you keep saying about using ew frigs and "dedicate frig killers" with your bastioned marauder... do you even think there is someone outhere that will go for your marauder instead of killing your support first? you are bastioned, you can't go anywhere, ppl will just kill your support first... and then tell me again how will you point/web them so you can be able to kill them....
Why do you think these ships should be solo monsters able to ravage everything? |
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:32:00 -
[5731] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:Anyway, "sniping battleships in small gang" is really hilarious.
Yes it is, which is why I want it.
tell me again about you actually testing this ships on test server and don't speaking right our of your a**. i don't even know why i'm wasting my time with you
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
528
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:33:00 -
[5732] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Show me a Marauder with 75.9km web before bonuses. In any situation where the Marauder can web the mach, the Mach can web & scram the Marauder.
Are You talking about small gang engagements?
I'd guess the marauder has is own tackle guy in the gang. And suddenly the mach can't move while the marauder doesn't want to move...  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:34:00 -
[5733] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[quote=gascanu] Why do you think these ships should be solo monsters able to ravage everything?
they cost a loot : )
and solo pvp is Fun : > f leets are fun too bout only when i am FC at least for me
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:35:00 -
[5734] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:
dude, you keep saying about using ew frigs and "dedicate frig killers" with your bastioned marauder... do you even think there is someone outhere that will go for your marauder instead of killing your support first? you are bastioned, you can't go anywhere, ppl will just kill your support first... and then tell me again how will you point/web them so you can be able to kill them....
Why do you think these ships should be solo monsters able to ravage everything? i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s |

baltec1
Bat Country
8247
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:42:00 -
[5735] - Quote
gascanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:Anyway, "sniping battleships in small gang" is really hilarious.
Yes it is, which is why I want it. tell me again about you actually testing this ships on test server and don't speaking right our of your a**. i don't even know why i'm wasting my time with you 
For three years I have flown Megathron hulls but not the kronos due to how bad it is. CCP have turned it into a new and very different ship and having tested it I like it very much. I also greatly enjoy the new Golem and the possibilities it has for dealing with smaller ships. I get Battleships to do new and interesting things and these Battleships are great at their new intended role as well as a few unintended jobs.
I don't restrict my testing to level 4 missions like the people who are dead set against these changes. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8247
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:46:00 -
[5736] - Quote
gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).
|

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:50:00 -
[5737] - Quote
Quote: this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
naahhh maruders are op for hi sec they don't need bastion but they will make use of new hi slot tho :P
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:52:00 -
[5738] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:Anyway, "sniping battleships in small gang" is really hilarious.
Yes it is, which is why I want it. tell me again about you actually testing this ships on test server and don't speaking right our of your a**. i don't even know why i'm wasting my time with you  For three years I have flown Megathron hulls but not the kronos due to how bad it is. CCP have turned it into a new and very different ship and having tested it I like it very much. I also greatly enjoy the new Golem and the possibilities it has for dealing with smaller ships. I get Battleships to do new and interesting things and these Battleships are great at their new intended role as well as a few unintended jobs. I don't restrict my testing to level 4 missions like the people who are dead set against these changes.
if bringing your megathron to a frig gang is what you understand by " I get Battleships to do new and interesting things" then ...
|

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:53:00 -
[5739] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).
nah, few peps showed they are very good at pvp. if you didn't saw those videos you never played eve : D
also they are the best ratting mashines becouse they salavage at the same time so best isk/hour with single ship : )
with vargur on angels you can make easy 70m/20min : > |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 07:56:00 -
[5740] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions). incursions? wh space? |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8247
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:01:00 -
[5741] - Quote
gascanu wrote:
if bringing your megathron to a frig gang is what you understand by " I get Battleships to do new and interesting things" then ...
When I did it it was new and interesting. It also worked.
See, unlike you I am willing to try new things to see if they work no matter how mad the fit looks. If the new Kronos didn't work I would say so. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8247
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:03:00 -
[5742] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions). nah, few peps showed they are very good at pvp. if you didn't saw those videos you never played eve : D also they are the best ratting mashines becouse they salavage at the same time so best isk/hour with single ship : ) with vargur on angels you can make easy 70m/20min : >
We used to rat with blasters in anoms and we didn't use them. Not only were they easy to jam but the Vindi was better. Thats the story of the kronos, whatever job you gave it the vindi would do it better. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:07:00 -
[5743] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hairpins Blueprint wrote:baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions). nah, few peps showed they are very good at pvp. if you didn't saw those videos you never played eve : D also they are the best ratting mashines becouse they salavage at the same time so best isk/hour with single ship : ) with vargur on angels you can make easy 70m/20min : > We used to rat with blasters in anoms and we didn't use them. Not only were they easy to jam but the Vindi was better. Thats the story of the kronos, whatever job you gave it the vindi would do it better.
hint: kronos is not the only "one" marauder out there 
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8247
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:19:00 -
[5744] - Quote
gascanu wrote:hint: kronos is not the only "one" marauder out there 
It highlights the problem they had though.
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:51:00 -
[5745] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:hint: kronos is not the only "one" marauder out there  It highlights the problem they had though. not really: a marauder in a guristas anom was one of the worst choices you could do; marauder main weakness is their poor sensor strength; knowing that guristas racial ew is ecm, why will anyone bring a marauder close is beyond me |
|

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
468

|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:51:00 -
[5746] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 09:19:00 -
[5747] - Quote
Id very much like to see the proposed changes before its "Lol too late patch is already going live in a week!"
Also, Kronos still has **** dps beyond 40km. due to lack of sentry drones.
Vargur has generally **** dps anyway if it needs to stand still(cant take advantage of its mobility, WHICH IT DOESNT HAVE ANYMORE)
Also, bastion module stacking penalized with other modules just screws torps and Golem so badly over its not even funny.
Vargur and blaster Kronos is even worse.
Im actually really disappointed, I seriously hope youre not releasing the Vargur and Kronos in this condition, also. more info about getting any sort of use outside of bastion? I seriously CAN NOT FATHOM you made it WORSE outside of Bastion than THEY CURRENTLY ARE. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 09:38:00 -
[5748] - Quote
gascanu wrote: not really: a marauder in a guristas anom was one of the worst choices you could do; marauder main weakness is their poor sensor strength; knowing that guristas racial ew is ecm, why will anyone bring a marauder close is beyond me
So they were not only outclassed in pvp but were near useless in a lot of pve. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 09:39:00 -
[5749] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Scram you so you can't MJD... Thats what my Hyena will do. And web you so you are even slower than your already slow pace. Yes, they are made for different jobs. But the Machariel is almost as good at the Marauders job as the Marauder is. While the Marauder sucks at the Machariels job. Meaning overall the Marauder is significantly a worse ship.
Web incoming hyena with ours, pop it at range with the rails, put both webs on the mach. Again, please show us the mach that can match the tank, resists and extra range of the new kronos.
see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals. The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.
and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.
Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
529
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 09:47:00 -
[5750] - Quote
Shantetha wrote: see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals. The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.
My golem now has 3 large vamps and a lot more cap boosters than your geddon.
Have fun.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 09:54:00 -
[5751] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:
see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals. The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.
and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.
Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.
Where did you get that neutgeddon from in null?
If you bring a neutgeddon with you, and you use probes etc and get the marauder then yea, its gonna suffer. But your average roaming gang is not going to have one. Come november the average roaming gang is going to be light, fast and E-War heavy. They might bring a curse but not likely. Battleships are going to be rare.
|

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
986
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 10:47:00 -
[5752] - Quote
Good changes, just ignore the themepark carebears, they will always cry in sandbox mmo-rpg forums, it's in their DNA. The Tears Must Flow |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
182
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 10:54:00 -
[5753] - Quote
The real killer for me is pretty much the price of it, and im sure existing marauder pilots wont mind the cost but those who havent trained into them will. Basically you have a battleship that is designed to tank and snipe...i cant even begin to wonder what CCP was smoking with that concept. You either tank or snipe you dont do both.
The Bastion Mod would be perfect for those who are CQ brawlers, but to be honest it is absolutely pointless in a sniping role. Again would be the MJD bonus. If you are sniping you need not warp in and MJD out 100km thats a bit redundant just flipping warp in at 100km
Overall you can take for instance a Naga, slap on some tracking computers with optimal range scripts and shoot. Granted in most cases that will be rails but as many have pointed out if a ship is burning toward you it has no transveral and goes instapop. The question is why in the hell would I drop 2.5 billion isk spend 3 months to train into for instance a paladin when I can spend a little over 100 mil and train into a Naga in far less time and essentially do the same in terms of role and damage?
The only real benefit would be the MJD bonus because in a sniping role I definitely wouldnt want to tank it and have to be locked in place for 1 minute.
CCP can continue with their changes but imo they have seriously ****** up the role of marauders. I can't really see many players who havent trained into them actually training into them. |

Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:05:00 -
[5754] - Quote
Is anything going to be done about Kronos and Vargur DPS now that Marauders are mandated to be long range boats?
Using a Vargur with artillery is a joke - a Dominix has better range, more than enough tank, and way better dps, nearly every T1 BS outperforms it.
With autocannons, its barely better than T1s, and it got stuck with having to fly to its targets to apply it - now, you get stuck with low dps in both cases. |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:05:00 -
[5755] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hairpins Blueprint wrote:baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions). nah, few peps showed they are very good at pvp. if you didn't saw those videos you never played eve : D also they are the best ratting mashines becouse they salavage at the same time so best isk/hour with single ship : ) with vargur on angels you can make easy 70m/20min : > We used to rat with blasters in anoms and we didn't use them. Not only were they easy to jam but the Vindi was better. Thats the story of the kronos, whatever job you gave it the vindi would do it better.
well i am sure not after this patch, witch carrier sentrys and railguns + 4x slavager kronos will be uber ratting maschine :>
you drop this wreck puling thing salavage all the wrecks and carier pick up the loot xd.
vindi can't do that :P
and vindi can't pull/savage wrecks like kronos ... so vinid ain't better in everything : ) |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:09:00 -
[5756] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.
and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.
Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.
This is idiotic. I can use the "see it on dscan, reship into the direct counter" argument to "prove" that every ship in the game is an underpowered piece of crap. |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:11:00 -
[5757] - Quote
Capt ****** wrote:Is anything going to be done about Kronos and Vargur DPS now that Marauders are mandated to be long range boats?
Using a Vargur with artillery is a joke - a Dominix has better range, more than enough tank, and way better dps, nearly every T1 BS outperforms it.
With autocannons, its barely better than T1s, and it got stuck with having to fly to its targets to apply it - now, you get stuck with low dps in both cases.
true but they can salv/loot and the same time :)
if they had more dps/range they would be to powerful ... think about it |

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:11:00 -
[5758] - Quote
Octoven wrote:The real killer for me is pretty much the price of it, and im sure existing marauder pilots wont mind the cost but those who havent trained into them will. Basically you have a battleship that is designed to tank and snipe...i cant even begin to wonder what CCP was smoking with that concept. You either tank or snipe you dont do both.
The Bastion Mod would be perfect for those who are CQ brawlers, but to be honest it is absolutely pointless in a sniping role. Again would be the MJD bonus. If you are sniping you need not warp in and MJD out 100km thats a bit redundant just flipping warp in at 100km
Overall you can take for instance a Naga, slap on some tracking computers with optimal range scripts and shoot. Granted in most cases that will be rails but as many have pointed out if a ship is burning toward you it has no transveral and goes instapop. The question is why in the hell would I drop 2.5 billion isk spend 3 months to train into for instance a paladin when I can spend a little over 100 mil and train into a Naga in far less time and essentially do the same in terms of role and damage?
The only real benefit would be the MJD bonus because in a sniping role I definitely wouldnt want to tank it and have to be locked in place for 1 minute.
CCP can continue with their changes but imo they have seriously ****** up the role of marauders. I can't really see many players who havent trained into them actually training into them.
This is a prime example of someone who has looked at the basic idea on paper and never tested it. |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
140
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:12:00 -
[5759] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gabriel Karade wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johann Rascali wrote:I greatly urge you guys to at least somkewhat revert back to the second iteration of changes. They'd make Marauders useful at something other than L4/L5 missions and getting killed seiged in a random spot it jumped to. The second iteration was terrible. no, actually it was a better stab at a compromise, for those who still use their web bonuses (granted it was stupid to slap the bonus on all 4 Marauders), and T2 resists were way superior for anything 'non' solo. You still had the range buffing effect of bastion too. I get it that you don't make use of webs, that's great for you, but your shield tanking Megathron is a gimmick, nothing more, and really won't work at all with the warp acceleration changes coming in... It got rid of the massive reps and resists which is the biggest selling point of these new ships in exchange for a web bonus on a ship with range bonuses. It made zero sense and its only fans are the min/max bears who only ever do level 4s. It would have been useless in pvp. The Kronos is already used in PvP and has been since it came out, I don't understand why you continue to deny this.
Why? A 90% web, plus 3 utility highs, plus the equivalent to 8 blasters. Yes sensor strength was a pita, but you could work around that and if you were solo in a Battleship hull it made little difference. Mine was always fit with double smartbombs plus neut. Switched from Ion's to Neutrons this last year when MJD came out and made things interesting. Eventually got titan bridged onto, oh noes...
Clearly you don't/have not used it is it's current form - I get that, but your experience of PvP is not the be all and end all of everything that goes on, on TQ.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:20:00 -
[5760] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:The real killer for me is pretty much the price of it, and im sure existing marauder pilots wont mind the cost but those who havent trained into them will. Basically you have a battleship that is designed to tank and snipe...i cant even begin to wonder what CCP was smoking with that concept. You either tank or snipe you dont do both.
The Bastion Mod would be perfect for those who are CQ brawlers, but to be honest it is absolutely pointless in a sniping role. Again would be the MJD bonus. If you are sniping you need not warp in and MJD out 100km thats a bit redundant just flipping warp in at 100km
Overall you can take for instance a Naga, slap on some tracking computers with optimal range scripts and shoot. Granted in most cases that will be rails but as many have pointed out if a ship is burning toward you it has no transveral and goes instapop. The question is why in the hell would I drop 2.5 billion isk spend 3 months to train into for instance a paladin when I can spend a little over 100 mil and train into a Naga in far less time and essentially do the same in terms of role and damage?
The only real benefit would be the MJD bonus because in a sniping role I definitely wouldnt want to tank it and have to be locked in place for 1 minute.
CCP can continue with their changes but imo they have seriously ****** up the role of marauders. I can't really see many players who havent trained into them actually training into them. This is a prime example of someone who has looked at the basic idea on paper and never tested it.
To be fair I actually did get on SIS grab a pally and naga and fit them as i describe here and guess what the pally is slightly more dps...but the cost isnt worth 60-80 more dps. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:30:00 -
[5761] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote: The Kronos is already used in PvP and has been since it came out, I don't understand why you continue to deny this.
[/quote]
It is as rare to find in pvp as a sentinel. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:33:00 -
[5762] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
To be fair I actually did get on SIS grab a pally and naga and fit them as i describe here and guess what the pally is slightly more dps...but the cost isnt worth 60-80 more dps.
You get E-war immunity, a massive active tank, a big resist bump and better damage applied at long range.
The naga is a glass cannon that a single intercepter will kill. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
188
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:33:00 -
[5763] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: It got rid of the massive reps and resists which is the biggest selling point of these new ships in exchange for a web bonus on a ship with range bonuses. It made zero sense and its only fans are the min/max bears who only ever do level 4s. It would have been useless in pvp.
Nonsense, the web bouns is fairly useful for a lot of stuff while the tank is completely useless for any proficient L4 pilot(because you don't need any kind of serious tank for L4) and the speed and and dps nerfs make them crap for nearly any other application.
Also rattlesnake is the cheapest pirate BS for a reason(because it is useless outside semi afk pve and station games/engaging gate camps and a similar thing was true for the hype). People always tell that this things will be useful in balance threads while they don't fly the ships enough to see that they only cover a very small niche while being overall not used for much else.
It is a great shame that marauders don't get her a single of core problems revisited(quite similar to hybrids) and instead get dumped down into a even smaller niche, lose her appeal for her old applications and will overall end up as ineffective lazy mode ships. Overall one more time that CCP shows that they have little understanding of the use of her ships and the overall game mechanics, and completely ignoring feedback for people that actually use the hulls in a halve decent way. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

lollerwaffle
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:35:00 -
[5764] - Quote
Shantetha wrote: see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.
and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.
Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.
You make up the perfect hypothetical situation where the marauder pilot: 1. Is alone, has no friends 2. Does not see YOU and your small gang on scan 3. Has not station/carrier/POS w/e access to reship, while your gang mysteriously does.
And use that as the basis for your argument? /golfclap
Ok, here's a counter argument using your method: 1. Marauder pilot sees your small gang on scan 2. Marauder calls in (new) EAF pilots and pins down your gang while putting facemelting DPS into your ships 3. Marauder has NOS and/or neuts and survives your neutageddon 4. Marauder does not suffer from ewar you bring
etc. etc.
Most ridiculous argument ever  |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:37:00 -
[5765] - Quote
The Djego wrote: It is a great shame that marauders don't get her a single of core problems revisited(quite similar to hybrids) and instead get dumped down into a even smaller niche, lose her appeal for her old applications and will overall end up as ineffective lazy mode ships. Overall one more time that CCP shows that they have little understanding of the use of her ships and the overall game mechanics, and completely ignoring feedback for people that actually use the hulls in a halve decent way.
So true, this new update makes them even more situational than they were before, especially in null/low. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:50:00 -
[5766] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
Nonsense, the web bouns is fairly useful for a lot of stuff while the tank is completely useless for any proficient L4 pilot(because you don't need any kind of serious tank for L4) and the speed and and dps nerfs make them crap for nearly any other application.
It has the same firepower from the guns now as it did before. The web bonus is pointless when you are going to be engaging at 80+ km. Its use would be for close range blaster work at which point you are better off in a vindi which is faster, has more firepower and can dictate range.
The Djego wrote:
Also rattlesnake is the cheapest pirate BS for a reason.
Yes, there are 25000 CFC grinding them up. |

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:02:00 -
[5767] - Quote
I dunno seeing as the range bonus is stacking penalised I'll probably use the mjd to jump my ship into all the rats activate bastion and blap from close range (AC's) the web bonus would have been useful for this tactic the reduced drone bay doesn't help either |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:05:00 -
[5768] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
Nonsense, the web bouns is fairly useful for a lot of stuff while the tank is completely useless for any proficient L4 pilot(because you don't need any kind of serious tank for L4) and the speed and and dps nerfs make them crap for nearly any other application.
It has the same firepower from the guns now as it did before. The web bonus is pointless when you are going to be engaging at 80+ km. Its use would be for close range blaster work at which point you are better off in a vindi which is faster, has more firepower and can dictate range.
To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world, where a slow ass and most of the time static(for prolonged times) sniper fit BS can dictate range and doesn't get utterly nailed by a tackler and a few ships with neuts warping on top of it. The Kronos is a much better sentry and rail platform than the Vindi(it will not be that after the changes since the dps without sentry's is pathetic and the new speed for repositioning is just horrible) because it can fit active tank, rails and drone links. Also rails can one volley frigs if you properly utilize a overheated 90% web and take them down at 18km with 2 tracking scripted TCs + javelin plus making the ship actually apply damage at point blank(what is a huge drawback on other rail/sentry platforms like the navy domi or the hype).
It becomes useless for pve with rails by the changes(because the dps is just a compared to navy domi and hype) and blaster fitted it is also worse than it is today, because it got a close range weapon, can't freely move, has no web strength and overall a lot less damage application and range compared to a rail/sentry Kronos of today.
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
Also rattlesnake is the cheapest pirate BS for a reason.
Yes, there are 25000 CFC grinding them up.
It is the least used hull in pvp and pve, because the huge tank is only useful for lazy people and a few minor niches and it is just to slow and clumsy in pvp. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:13:00 -
[5769] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world
Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about.
baltec1 wrote:
It is the least used hull in pvp and pve, because the huge tank is only useful for lazy people and a few minor niches and it is just to slow and clumsy in pvp.
Its also the most heavily farmed of the 4 ships. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:17:00 -
[5770] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world
Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about.
I actually tested them on sissi and they are crap compared to what they are atm. The difference might be that I fly marauders since a couple of years and know how to utilize them properly.
Also FFA pvp has little to do with real pvp.
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
It is the least used hull in pvp and pve, because the huge tank is only useful for lazy people and a few minor niches and it is just to slow and clumsy in pvp.
Its also the most heavily farmed of the 4 ships.
It is still the least used hull, no matter if it gets farmed to hell and back and only costs 1/3 of the other hulls. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:19:00 -
[5771] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
To be fair I actually did get on SIS grab a pally and naga and fit them as i describe here and guess what the pally is slightly more dps...but the cost isnt worth 60-80 more dps.
You get E-war immunity, a massive active tank, a big resist bump and better damage applied at long range. The naga is a glass cannon that a single intercepter will kill.
Yet in your own words:
Quote:... long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km.
So a glass ship shouldnt matter as you will kill them before they get in range to hit you. PLUS you dont need the bastion mode to lock you down for 1 minute thus if you do feel as if you aren't going to survive you can warp unlike the marauder which ties your hands. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:25:00 -
[5772] - Quote
The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world
Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about. I actually tested them on sissi and they are crap compared to what they are atm. The difference might be that I fly marauders since a couple of years and know how to utilize them properly. Also FFA pvp has little to do with real pvp.
Let me guess, you went and did pve and no pvp, saw no gain and so they are useless to you. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8248
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:26:00 -
[5773] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
So a glass ship shouldnt matter as you will kill them before they get in range to hit you. PLUS you dont need the bastion mode to lock you down for 1 minute thus if you do feel as if you aren't going to survive you can warp unlike the marauder which ties your hands.
That glass ship can take near no punishment while the marauder can. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:27:00 -
[5774] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:
So a glass ship shouldnt matter as you will kill them before they get in range to hit you. PLUS you dont need the bastion mode to lock you down for 1 minute thus if you do feel as if you aren't going to survive you can warp unlike the marauder which ties your hands.
That glass ship can take near no punishment while the marauder can.
Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2849

|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:28:00 -
[5775] - Quote
Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:
- Capacitor has been decreased from 8000 to 7500 on the Paladin.
- Drone bay has been restored to 75m3 on the Paladin and Golem, 125m3 on the Kronos and 75m3 on the Vargur.
- Max Velocity has been increased to 100m/s on the Paladin and Golem, 105 on the Kronos and 110 on the Vargur.
- Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur.
- Shield HP has been increased from 6300 to 6900 on the Paladin, 8000 to 8800 on the Golem, 6600 to 7300 on the Kronos, 7500 to 8300 on the Vargur.
- Armor HP has been increased from 8000 to 8800 on the Paladin, 6100 to 6700 on the Golem, 7200 to 7900 on the Kronos, 6600 to 7300 on the Vargur.
- Hull HP has been increased from 7700 to 8500 on the Paladin, 7000 to 7700 on the Golem, 8600 to 9500 on the Kronos, 6300 to 6900 on the Vargur.
Why buffing those hulls?
- As mentioned here and based on your feedback, we realized the hulls have been overnerfed in iteration 1 next to the benefits given by Bastion.
Why restoring their drone bay to their original values, but keeping the nerfs to the bandwidth?
- Mainly because those hulls are not supposed to use large drones, especially sentries in combat. They are supposed to use their main turrets / launchers, combined with Bastion mode to deliver damage, and use MJD to move around the battlefield. On those vessels, drones are limited to a support role, indicated by the low bandwidth. However, we have nothing against keeping a bit of flexibility by having high drone bays to allow replacement waves.
Why removing the web bonuses?
- As we realized when internally playtesting iteration 2, web bonuses don't combine that well with hulls using MJDs to move around or increased projection in Bastion. When we gave them web bonuses we had to nerf them from 10% to 7.5% per level not to overstep on ships like the Vindicator, which by itself was a sign that we were trying to take over a role already fulfilled by the Pirate Battleships. Marauders are not supposed to fill the same niche than their Pirate counterpart, which led us to remove those web bonuses and revert back to iteration 1. Trying to hit orbiting NPC frigates at close range with those hulls is not a good idea either, just use your MJD and snipe them before they can come back in range. If you wish to hit close range targets, the Vindicator is much better for that purpose, as it is tailored for Blasters.
Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?
- Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. Max velocity nerf is a good way to compensate, especially when considering the fact they have MJDs at their disposal to hop around the battlefield. However, the first speed nerf was a bit harsh, which is why we are mitigating it by increasing their max velocity a bit next to iteration 1.
Why do those hulls have lower mass next to their tech I counterparts?
- Having less mass help with max MWD velocity and align time. The first one partially helps to compensate the Max Velocity nerf (they're not as mobile than tech I, we estimate their top speed to be 10% slower with MWDs), the second one helps to make those hulls less vulnerable when coming out of bastion mode to align and warp out. Aligning is especially important for MJDs, and we estimated it was a good aspect to preserve.
Why buffing the EHP?
- For being the epitome of tanking, they shouldn't have reduced EHP next to their tech I, Navy or Pirate counterpart. We wanted to avoid giving them full Tech II resists outside Basion Mode to avoid broad use in RR fleets, but we still felt the need to give them some buffer to help survivability as a whole. In practice, that means the Marauders now have 39-41k raw EHP, which compares favorably next to Navy Battleships (35-41k) or Pirate Battleships (34-41k).
Why nerfing the capacitor on the Paladin?
- Combined with the Capacitor bonus it gets it was just too high before. It's not much of a nerf however, but it helps with the general balance of those hulls.
Why didn't you buff the fittings?
- We estimate the CPU / PWG on them to be adequate. We are aware of some tight fittings, but we don't want those hulls to be able to easily fit a full rack of top tier turrets / launchers with Energy Neutralizers plus a full tank, as it would be quite over the top.
Why not moving a high-slot to med or low?
- We feel like the extra high-slot to be needed to compensate for the use of the Bastion module - adding an extra med or low slot could make those hulls quite too much powerful in combat situations.
Why not adding damage to the Bastion mode?
- Those hulls are not supposed to be outdamaging competition, as this would be favoring the power-creep. They are supposed to fulfill a different role / niche through their high tanks, stable weapon platforms (EW immunity, increase damage projection) and MJDs. It's all about trade-offs; if you wish more damaging hulls, then look for Pirate Battleships / Navy Battleships for that particular purpose, knowing full well you will pay for it in other areas.
Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
- We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
- The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
- There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us ...
|
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1338
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:30:00 -
[5776] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).
Another one of your delusions. All those guys in Paladins and Kronos in incursions are doing wrong, right? And the all Paladin/2 Oni fleet that mopped the floor with all the other armour fleets, and many shield fleets, that doesn't happen, right.
Give it up.
We all know that you are trolling, or recognize that these proposed changes wreck the class of boat. A class you have no intention of using, so your attempts a defending this abomination is because of the jollies you get on wrecking the game for others. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:32:00 -
[5777] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.
Things go wrong, in which case you have that massive tank to fall back on. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:32:00 -
[5778] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
To bad we play on TQ instead of your magical pvp world
Its called SiSi. You should log on it sometime and test these ships you are talking about. I actually tested them on sissi and they are crap compared to what they are atm. The difference might be that I fly marauders since a couple of years and know how to utilize them properly. Also FFA pvp has little to do with real pvp. Let me guess, you went and did pve and no pvp, saw no gain and so they are useless to you.
Yes I in fact did test them for pve(let me guess you didn't at all), because that is what they where designed for and what they are used for most of the time. I also did use them in a FFA and it is just "lol bastion, dual rep tank, mjd out lol" what looks funny on sissi but nobody would do this with a billion isk ship on TQ, quite similar to that not anybody uses vindicators or machs in pvp, because they cost more than 100 ISK in the market. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:34:00 -
[5779] - Quote
And sadly - the vargur dies.
700 dps with artillery, that at 100k will be more like 400 dps.
A pointless ship with the changes - its DPS has always required close contact and mobility - so it cannot benefit from bastion, MJD or nerfed drone bay.
Why do they all have to be the same in tanking bonus, MJD bonus etc, then how can 1000 dps match 400-500 dps |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:36:00 -
[5780] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote:Shantetha wrote: see marauder on dscan while your small gang is out, 1 dude reships into 8 rack capboosted neutageddon with scram, marauder is capless in 6 seconds, unless it a paladin then it takes 10 seconds from the second you land on him. You can even run a 1 vamp 7 rack neutageddon with scram and only add 3ish seconds to both totals.(btw this assumes that marauder has full cap, it's even better if he is already bastioned and shooting/reping) The second you see the transformation back to normal mode you scram, no mjding, your small gang mops up the rest of the frigs while you sit at 0 on the marauder cycling neuts as cap required. If he does MJD away, you just mjd right after him and reapply neuts and scram. He'll only get 30-90 cap back during your relock time.
and that's not even an amount neut vamp boosted hull, it's range. If you used a Bahl it's even faster. but why use a 1b hull when a 200m will do the same job just fine.
Yes it requires both sides to have a mix of ewar frigs, desi, and crusiers. But seriously the marauder is so weak to cap warfare as to be laughable.
You make up the perfect hypothetical situation where the marauder pilot: 1. Is alone, has no friends 2. Does not see YOU and your small gang on scan 3. Has not station/carrier/POS w/e access to reship, while your gang mysteriously does. And use that as the basis for your argument? /golfclap Ok, here's a counter argument using your method: 1. Marauder pilot sees your small gang on scan 2. Marauder calls in (new) EAF pilots and pins down your gang while putting facemelting DPS into your ships 3. Marauder has NOS and/or neuts and survives your neutageddon 4. Marauder does not suffer from ewar you bring etc. etc. Most ridiculous argument ever 
i was actually considering both sides had EAF + support which if you had bothered reading..
the marauder could run nos as someone else said they had 360 cap worth of NOS with an 800 cap injector (2 neuts takes care of that including the cap regen and for the geddon 1 nos + 800 cap booster leaves you with 10 min of cap time under that nos. Running neuts on the other hand the marauder will make itself even more cap vulnerable.
The point of that was was 2 small gangs, if 1 sees a marauder you are going to reship to a 200m hull because you can get a 1.2-1.5+b killmail.
lollerwaffle wrote: 4. Marauder does not suffer from ewar you bring
The marauder doesn't need to suffer the ewar, besides it's only immune when actively using bastion. It's one less ship that needs to be ewar'd in the fleet. Allowing you instead to apply more it's support fleet. Besides scram still works once it exits bastion.
again this argument is just as valid as baltec1's argument that small gangs with marauders are going to be unstoppable. Here is a direct counter that is far cheaper to field and just the thought of how easy it is a neut an active tanked marauder to the ground will discourage all but the fool hardy or stupidly wealthy from fielding marauders in pvp.
|
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:39:00 -
[5781] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  .
Yes it does help, I now know the paladin is useless I will be selling mine, thank you. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
268
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:39:00 -
[5782] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur.
 |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
531
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:39:00 -
[5783] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.
Unless ofc. a real sniper ship enters the field and destroys your glass cannon with the first volley.
Also, Interceptors + Your allign time.
Lets presume you're indeed 80km away from your target.
An intercepor can go how fast? 5.5km/s? maybe even more? Average. I've seen the "how to build the fastest ship in EVE" Video. 
That means in average You've got 14.54 seconds to kill that interceptor... lets say 18 seconds because it has to accelerate first (see, I'm nice). You'll have to target it first and in Your Nado You'll need Arties to hit that far...
No chance. The interceptor is under your guns before the targeting cycle is finished. You warp either immediately or not at all.
Not that big of a problem for the Marauder, I guess. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:45:00 -
[5784] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  .
These are now live right? |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
191
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:47:00 -
[5785] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
[/list]
Since you don't do a lot of pve and think a active tanking ship mjding around in incursion sites would not be hilarious bad(yes lets waste 4-5 slots on tank and be a lot slower than 11 dps + 1 logi setups and lose all the contests, brilliant idea), can you at least leave the old marauders intact by putting them back in as 2. class of marauders(I have no issue selling all my marauders and buying new hulls, it is still more acceptable then selling them all and consider marauder 5 as wasted SP), because quite frankly they are a lot better then the "new ones" for most pve and even pvp stuff. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:49:00 -
[5786] - Quote
The Djego wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
[/list] Since you don't do a lot of pve and think a active tanking ship mjding around in incursion sites would not be hilarious bad(yes lets waste 4-5 slots on tank and be a lot slower than 11 dps + 1 logi setups and lose all the contests, brilliant idea), can you at least leave the old marauders intact by putting them back in as 2. class of marauders(I have no issue selling all my marauders and buying new hulls, it is still more acceptable then selling them all and consider marauder 5 as wasted SP), because quite frankly they are a lot better then the "new ones" for most pve and even pvp stuff.
That would leave us with another broken ship they would have to fix for pvp. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1338
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:51:00 -
[5787] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you? I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ.
And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used.
And I have done testing too. If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff).
But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half..
Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right?
I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times.
I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:51:00 -
[5788] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  .
well kinda not ... i was hoping for something difrent ... : (
if paladin have soooo much range swap this bonus for tracking.
and the idea for sniping bs is good for aliance tournament not kinda solo low/null sec :((
i was hoping to web come back to kronos and paladin : ' | you just force them to be sniping platforms, and they are much more use as brwl close on TQ 
will see hot it will spin, any way they will be much better for pve in null now i guess .... |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:53:00 -
[5789] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Octoven wrote:
Ha it wont matter according to you you shouldnt take any damage.
Unless ofc. a real sniper ship enters the field and destroys your glass cannon with the first volley. Also, Interceptors + Your allign time. Lets presume you're indeed 80km away from your target. An intercepor can go how fast? 5.5km/s? maybe even more? Average. I've seen the "how to build the fastest ship in EVE" Video.  That means in average You've got 14.54 seconds to kill that interceptor... lets say 18 seconds because it has to accelerate first (see, I'm nice). You'll have to target it first and in Your Nado You'll need Arties to hit that far... No chance. The interceptor is under your guns before the targeting cycle is finished. You warp either immediately or not at all. Not that big of a problem for the Marauder, I guess.
First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far |

Sarmatiko
1486
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:54:00 -
[5790] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change one digit in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km?
This is pure "Quality of Life" change but for some strange reason you prefer to just ignore it. -¥ |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
191
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:54:00 -
[5791] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
[/list] Since you don't do a lot of pve and think a active tanking ship mjding around in incursion sites would not be hilarious bad(yes lets waste 4-5 slots on tank and be a lot slower than 11 dps + 1 logi setups and lose all the contests, brilliant idea), can you at least leave the old marauders intact by putting them back in as 2. class of marauders(I have no issue selling all my marauders and buying new hulls, it is still more acceptable then selling them all and consider marauder 5 as wasted SP), because quite frankly they are a lot better then the "new ones" for most pve and even pvp stuff. That would leave us with another broken ship they would have to fix for pvp.
Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
99
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:55:00 -
[5792] - Quote
I did a search for resist stacking and didn't find anything so forgive me if this has been brought up. Is the bastion module resist bonus stacking with our standard resistance modules or will it go in thr damage control stack? |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:55:00 -
[5793] - Quote
Sarmatiko Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change [b wrote:one digit[/b] in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km?
noctis is spec salavge ship, it is for Salvage Only i guess thats way ... |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 12:57:00 -
[5794] - Quote
The Djego wrote:[
Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion.
i kinda agree, i would prefer to leave them as they are now on TQ  |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:00:00 -
[5795] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change one digit in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km? if you were to actually get a response on this it would be something about how the changes are focused on + pvp not + pve(clearly suppose to be -pve) so there is no need to change the tractor bonus... |

Sarmatiko
1487
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:03:00 -
[5796] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:noctis is spec salavge ship, it is for Salvage Only i guess thats way ... Where is the word "tractor" in that "Salvage only ship"? It should salvage fast, not just cover all dungeon with 96km tractor without even moving. Why industrial command ship Orca have 250% tractor range bonus? Please don't use artificial reasonings to justify strange dev behavior on this matter. -¥ |

marVLs
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:03:00 -
[5797] - Quote
Nope, they will be still useless in Incursions (i mean no one will choose them when they can get pirate BS's), You can argue as much as You want but every incursion community will tell You that, sorry 
Vargur and Kronos are still bad with range.
Golem - no point fitting torps, it's dead.
Other changes are ok, but overall some of them (especially Vargur) are not in pair with good Paladin for their suppose. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:04:00 -
[5798] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you? I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ. And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used. And I have done testing too. If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff). But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half.. Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right? I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times. I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that.
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:06:00 -
[5799] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion.
Sorry but your min/max pve arguments hold no water with CCP. They have been doing a damn fine job balancing the ships and I look forwards to their continued work.
These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
531
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:06:00 -
[5800] - Quote
Octoven wrote: First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far
Ok, Naga then.
Warp to at 160km has not yet been implemented. Your Naga can't fit an MJD, so You're at roughly 100km IF You enter the field after the engagement has started.
That gives you (in average) 3,63 more seconds... So, unless that inty is directly heading into your direction you won't hit it and by the time you decide to warp out, Your chances to survive that encounter dropped to roughly 50/50. Against an interceptor. Not very impressive. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:10:00 -
[5801] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Octoven wrote: First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far
Ok, Naga then. Warp to at 160km has not yet been implemented. Your Naga can't fit an MJD, so You're at roughly 100km IF You enter the field after the engagement has started. That gives you (in average) 3,63 more seconds... So, unless that inty is directly heading into your direction you won't hit it and by the time you decide to warp out, Your chances to survive that encounter dropped to roughly 50/50. Against an interceptor. Not very impressive.
Given the fact it is just a ceptor and not half the line up of ships i think thats pretty damn good actually. You assume every fleet will have one. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:12:00 -
[5802] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you? I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ. And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used. And I have done testing too. If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff). But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half.. Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right? I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times. I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that. To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS. Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions. Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.
You blap them as they chase after you. Zero tracking.
|

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:12:00 -
[5803] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[quote=The Djego] These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp. It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best. |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:13:00 -
[5804] - Quote
Tramar wrote:baltec1 wrote: These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.
It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best.
|

Sarmatiko
1487
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:13:00 -
[5805] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:if you were to actually get a response on this it would be something about how the changes are focused on + pvp not + pve(clearly suppose to be -pve) so there is no need to change the tractor bonus... Forcefully pushing people to make PVP on pure PVE ships, or changing pure PVE ships into PVP, won't bring more PVP - it will bring more canceled subscriptions and even less people flying Marauders. Currently Marauder rebalance is the most unsatisfactory change of Rubicon expansion - "let's throw them some bone in form of unneeded overtank, and leave other problems like outdated bonuses or damage application unresolved" -¥ |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
194
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:16:00 -
[5806] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:
Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion.
Sorry but your min/max pve arguments hold no water with CCP. They have been doing a damn fine job balancing the ships and I look forwards to their continued work. These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.
The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:16:00 -
[5807] - Quote
Cool, I like the navigation changes this means I can use my Golem the way I am now, because less mass = better MWD effectiveness.
So I can just burn over to where I gotta be, lock down in Bastion mode while I kill stuff, repeat.
Don't have my T2 ship resistances, but at least now I can have the flexibility to use torpedoes again instead of being forced to use Cruise launchers (which with defenders, is hell on a Golem's DPS). |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:18:00 -
[5808] - Quote
Tramar wrote:baltec1 wrote: These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.
It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best.
They have the best subcap tanks, better range, E-war immunity and faster reuse on the mjd. They also have a lot of spare high slots and most of the drawbacks have been reversed.
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:19:00 -
[5809] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Octoven wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you? I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ. And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used. And I have done testing too. If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff). But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half.. Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right? I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times. I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that. To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS. Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions. Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. You blap them as they chase after you. Zero tracking.
Im sorry did you just not read that? 3500 m/s! Assuming you MJD out of their range also assuming you are doing 131 m/s a tama can catch your ass in 29.5 seconds and orbit you thus rendering tracking useless. Also, given your lock time Id say you get maybe 15-20 good seconds of fire off till you are ******. Then you have to go in bastion mode wait a min, then jump again and repeat. You will have gone 1000 km before you kill everything but yeah sure lets subscribe to that tactic. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:19:00 -
[5810] - Quote
About the fitting please add a tad bit more cpu to the kronos... that way I only have to fit one cpu rig There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1343
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:20:00 -
[5811] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tramar wrote:baltec1 wrote: These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.
It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best. They have the best subcap tanks, better range, E-war immunity and faster reuse on the mjd. They also have a lot of spare high slots and most of the drawbacks have been reversed.
Are you getting paid by CCP by the line, or by the post? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:21:00 -
[5812] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:About the fitting please add a tad bit more cpu to the kronos... that way I only have to fit one cpu rig
Or structure-tank the Kronos, that hull HP is overkill, should save some CPU. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:21:00 -
[5813] - Quote
The Djego wrote: The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.
Only in missions.
Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
532
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:21:00 -
[5814] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Octoven wrote: First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far
Ok, Naga then. Warp to at 160km has not yet been implemented. Your Naga can't fit an MJD, so You're at roughly 100km IF You enter the field after the engagement has started. That gives you (in average) 3,63 more seconds... So, unless that inty is directly heading into your direction you won't hit it and by the time you decide to warp out, Your chances to survive that encounter dropped to roughly 50/50. Against an interceptor. Not very impressive. Given the fact it is just a ceptor and not half the line up of ships i think thats pretty damn good actually. You assume every fleet will have one.
Ceptors, why not? They're cheap enough.
Even T1 frigs are not that far of from that, they need more effort to reach those insane speeds, true but it's possible.
In almost any situation were the Naga (Talos, Nado, etc.) has to warp out the marauder can just stay and duke it out. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
582
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:23:00 -
[5815] - Quote
Again.. Minamtar ship is HEAVIER than Amarr ones.. WHat are you guys SMOKING?
Why cant you keep racial consistency? WHy the ships that look made of sails weight more than the Bricks of solid metal?
WHy to give a FAKE 5 ms speed advantage for the vargur when he mass cancels it?
WHY? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:23:00 -
[5816] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote: The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.
Only in missions. Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp.
They are something different and new so of course they will be fun most new things are but once time goes by that newness wears off and they will return to ****. |

NiteNinja
Night Raven Task Force
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:25:00 -
[5817] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Again.. Minamtar ship is HEAVIER than Amarr ones.. WHat are you guys SMOKING?
Why cant you keep racial consistency? WHy the ships that look made of sails weight more than the Bricks of solid metal?
WHy to give a FAKE 5 ms speed advantage for the vargur when he mass cancels it?
WHY?
Paladin is the hatred of God surrounded by aluminum cans. Varguar is made of solid tritanium with reinforced mex, several thousand rolls of duct tape, and baling wire. It does add up. |

Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
100
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:26:00 -
[5818] - Quote
My god so much butthurt.
1. Every ship is situational in pvp. Now there is actually a situation to use marauders onoes! 2. An exclusively PVE ship is daft. So deal with it. 3. Marauders are subpar for incursions anyway. Get a pirate battleship. 4. Call bastion a gimmick all you want. Local tanked battleships are now viable! 5. Don't whine about ISK. people pvp in officer fit t3s and capitals every day.
Catering the rebalance of an entire class of ship to incursion runners is as arrogant as saying the devs are catering to nullsec cartels.
If you wsnt my honest opinion. I'd say wormholers are making out the best with this class. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8249
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:26:00 -
[5819] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Are you getting paid by CCP by the line, or by the post?
I report what I find after testing. |

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:26:00 -
[5820] - Quote
I do like the sounds of those most recent hull changes, but I have yet to run the numbers or test on SiSi (if they are even live yet). BTW, when's the next mirror?
To those of you saying these ships are outperformed by the pirate BS's: from what I've been taking away from this, the pirate BS rebalance is coming soon, I'd say either this expansion or the point release in a few months. It doesn't make sense to compare these marauders to the pirate hulls when we know they're changing relatively soon.
(Comparisons to the T1 hulls are valid though). |
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
186
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:30:00 -
[5821] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:My god so much butthurt.
1. Every ship is situational in pvp. Now there is actually a situation to use marauders onoes! 2. An exclusively PVE ship is daft. So deal with it. 3. Marauders are subpar for incursions anyway. Get a pirate battleship. 4. Call bastion a gimmick all you want. Local tanked battleships are now viable! 5. Don't whine about ISK. people pvp in officer fit t3s and capitals every day.
Catering the rebalance of an entire class of ship to incursion runners is as arrogant as saying the devs are catering to nullsec cartels.
If you wsnt my honest opinion. I'd say wormholers are making out the best with this class.
Actually the new marauders are now exclusively for PVP so Id rather not deal with it...just scrap the ship and advise no one to buy one. |

Silent Cyborg
WIFI Express TAXU
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:35:00 -
[5822] - Quote
Don't know why you all even bother CCP don't give a **** and will never start caring as long as they make money.
It doesn't matter that you may of trained for years to max out the skillz for your dream ship we all know the process by now...
1. You look at they toy in the shop window glistening in the bright lights of what is awesome
2. You spend years training in to said ship (max skilled not emo flying)
3. CCP nerf said ship
4. You all cry on the fourms
5. You see the next ship you like in the window and you start training all over again.
Mean while the shareholders at CCP get fat of your subscription payments
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD! CCP DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT YOU JUST YOUR MONEY |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
586
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:35:00 -
[5823] - Quote
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.
People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required. Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's? They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements. The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.
|

Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
100
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:36:00 -
[5824] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
Actually the new marauders are now exclusively for PVP so Id rather not deal with it...just scrap the ship and advise no one to buy one.
You should officer fit your T1 battleship hull for PVE then. It will be even more viable. Now you can save isk on that pesky hull! |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
194
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:37:00 -
[5825] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote: The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.
Only in missions. Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp.
They are worse for L4, worse for Incs, worse for WH(in a RR gang). Without the web bonus they are also pointless in most of her pvp application(don't trust me, trust all the empire war dec people that posted here, agreeing all on this single matter).
Also my experience says me that it is stupid to use a 1B isk hull where a lot cheaper one would do the same thing better in a fleet fight(by getting RR, being able to reposition more quicker, warp out, having lots of people that can fly them) and in solo pvp(by not having a "I have a massive active tank that you can't beak written all over it").
It is nothing new that all kinds of "pvp experts" state hulls with questionable usability are very good on sissi, while they are more or less pointless on TQ. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8250
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:37:00 -
[5826] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
They are something different and new so of course they will be fun most new things are but once time goes by that newness wears off and they will return to ****.
The frig gang busting golem will never get old. |

MARKEETTT ALT
Krypteia Operations
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:42:00 -
[5827] - Quote
The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote: The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.
Only in missions. Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp. They are worse for L4, worse for Incs, worse for WH(in a RR gang). Without the web bonus they are also pointless in most of her pvp application(don't trust me, trust all the empire war dec people that posted here, agreeing all on this single matter). Also my experience says me that it is stupid to use a 1B isk hull where a lot cheaper one would do the same thing better in a fleet fight(by getting RR, being able to reposition more quicker, warp out, having lots of people that can fly them) and in solo pvp(by not having a "I have a massive active tank that you can't beak written all over it"). It is nothing new that all kinds of "pvp experts" state hulls with questionable usability are very good on sissi, while they are more or less pointless on TQ.
It's a T2, it's supposed specialised - aka excelllent in tanking and projection, and very medicore in all others. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:42:00 -
[5828] - Quote
Josh Cox wrote:I do like the sounds of those most recent hull changes, but I have yet to run the numbers or test on SiSi (if they are even live yet). BTW, when's the next mirror?
To those of you saying these ships are outperformed by the pirate BS's: from what I've been taking away from this, the pirate BS rebalance is coming soon, I'd say either this expansion or the point release in a few months. It doesn't make sense to compare these marauders to the pirate hulls when we know they're changing relatively soon.
(Comparisons to the T1 hulls are valid though).
next mirror is supposedly the 18th(2 days)
unless they turn all Pirate BS is into nothing but glass cannons you'll still better off most times using a pirate since the DPS and applied dps will actually be higher, and you can still be RR which unless you are solo or everyone in your small gang hates logi is better anyways. |

Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:45:00 -
[5829] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: A Paladin with Scorch
Now that you mention ammo, any info on when you're planning to update them? Like the long post btw, rather detailed. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:46:00 -
[5830] - Quote
Quote:Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
there is that word scrambler again when it should be disruptor its the same on the HIC and dictors special mods please can you change the wording so as to provide clarity Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8250
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:47:00 -
[5831] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
Also my experience says me that it is stupid to use a 1B isk hull where a lot cheaper one would do the same thing better in a fleet fight(by getting RR, being able to reposition more quicker, warp out, having lots of people that can fly them)
They are not fleet ships.
The Djego wrote:
and in solo pvp(by not having a "I have a massive active tank that you can't beak written all over it").
People still engage triage carriers with small gangs. |

Silent Cyborg
WIFI Express TAXU
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:49:00 -
[5832] - Quote
QUICK EVERYONE BACK ON THE JITA STATUE! |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2854

|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:49:00 -
[5833] - Quote
Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.
If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.
Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.
If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare. |
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:54:00 -
[5834] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: A Paladin with Scorch
there are some other marauders out there that dont have such great projection as the paladin what about those ?
|

Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:54:00 -
[5835] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Offering EoM ships to players would either mean having them drop through loot somehow, which is not really acceptable, or require them to be a fully fledged pirate organization, with territory, asteroid belt infestation, LP stores, agents and complexes. Doing so is a tremendous task which is not planned or even considered at the time being. I was looking for this devblog ever since the site was updated It's been 4 years Ytter when are we getting them  |

Silent Cyborg
WIFI Express TAXU
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:56:00 -
[5836] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth than we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram.
But thank you ccp electronic attack ships + evil = more isk ransoms for me seen as I will be able to neut and scram them and kill off there pitiful drones |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
186
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 13:59:00 -
[5837] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
I understand, please also consider the possibility of refunding SP. I don't normally support that route when it comes to re balancing because you guys have only shifted hull stats in the past re balances; however, this is a pretty significant role change from what people have invest time into. I urge you to consider refunds on this situation. At least let us apply it so something we find more useful. It has been done in the past when stuff has been dramatically altered that takes significant skill time to learn. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8250
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:00:00 -
[5838] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
No need to apologize. What they want you cannot give them. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:00:00 -
[5839] - Quote
Kronos is 5ms faster than the Paladin, but Paladin has less mass? what the duck?
Kronos still cant use its original 3 sentries, I can use 2 sentries or 5 medium drones(does ANYONE use medium drones for PVE? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!) Paladin is still superior.
Torp Golem is still garbage.
Vargur is still ass. Mach with 4 bouncers that moves at lightspeed when needed or an immobile crap-dps Vargur? HMM THOUGH ONE!
What exactly did you accomplish here? sort of kinda nothing.
I have always had lvl 4s as my ISK income in this game. From what Ive gathered youve also done some PVE.
But from the looks of it you really dont have a clue on how you should balance things. Give Kronos back its 3 sentries.
Fix Vargur somehow as you dont want to make Bastion Mode give it any falloff whatsoever so its stuck at 1163 dps with 75km falloff and 4km optimal, while stationary. this is just sad.
Golem and torps is the same issue.
If you want them to rely on their "LOL MAIN WEPPENS" Atleast make them do some sort of damage.
TL;DR
If you arent running "insert x faction - Angels"
Paladin is great.
Kronos SUCKS
Golem sucks more
And Vargur sucks the most.
Good job. (irony) |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1343
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:05:00 -
[5840] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
Let me get this straight, first you say that your "internal testing" shows they are effective, but now you say you will look at tweaks after "more hard live testing"???? So what does that mean?
Does that mean "your internal testing" was just lip service to gauging the impact on how much these changes screw a big chunk of the people using these boats?
You know what, Assault Frigates are "effective" in L4 missions. But no one sane uses them, because there are far too many options that are better. The same concept now applies to what you have done to Marauders. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8250
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:08:00 -
[5841] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kronos is 5ms faster than the Paladin, but Paladin has less mass? what the duck?
Kronos still cant use its original 3 sentries, I can use 2 sentries or 5 medium drones(does ANYONE use medium drones for PVE? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!) Paladin is still superior.
Torp Golem is still garbage.
Vargur is still ass. Mach with 4 bouncers that moves at lightspeed when needed or an immobile crap-dps Vargur? HMM THOUGH ONE!
What exactly did you accomplish here? sort of kinda nothing.
I have always had lvl 4s as my ISK income in this game. From what Ive gathered youve also done some PVE.
But from the looks of it you really dont have a clue on how you should balance things. Give Kronos back its 3 sentries.
Fix Vargur somehow as you dont want to make Bastion Mode give it any falloff whatsoever so its stuck at 1163 dps with 75km falloff and 4km optimal, while stationary. this is just sad.
Golem and torps is the same issue.
If you want them to rely on their "LOL MAIN WEPPENS" Atleast make them do some sort of damage.
Still garbage outside of bastion. "wannabe" t2 resists. less EHP than faction/pirate BS (Which is kinda fine, if they had some resists to make up for overall less EHP, but its miniscule.)
TL;DR
If you arent running "insert x faction - Angels"
Paladin is great.
Kronos SUCKS
Golem sucks more
And Vargur sucks the most.
Good job. (irony)
Stop using other ships like pirate ships and use the pirate ships, they are better anyway. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
586
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:09:00 -
[5842] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.
People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required. Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's? They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements. The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.
It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.
It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times.
The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before. WH pve, lvl 5 missions...
Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's. If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:10:00 -
[5843] - Quote
Silent Cyborg wrote:do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram. Not exactly. As a mission runner I can tell you that I don't use webs on my Kronos, whether it's Railguns or Blasters fit. There are just better uses for that mid slot and I'll gladly trade this bonus for those coming with Rubicon.
And the length of the thread indicates only that so many people have strong, if contradictory, opinions of this ship class. Or rather, that some people are such opinionated. This way or another, it means that ANY balance update will **** someone. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:13:00 -
[5844] - Quote
The problem with incursions is that they are designed so you have to fly a battleship and try to hit frigs doing 3km/s .... its not real pvp in any sense of the word incursions are totally backwards .. they are broken and need fixing really don't blame Ytterbium for not catering to a broken system Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
202
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:13:00 -
[5845] - Quote
I'm glad you are sticking with the (now improved) initial rebalance idea. Can't wait to try them out! |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
586
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:14:00 -
[5846] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
I have one question.
In reguards to no t2 resists on the hull, and the belief that these ships suck outside of bastion...
Would it be possible to allow the base hull rep/boost bonus to also effect incoming logistics?
I.E. - Golem - 7.5% bonus to local shield boosts and incoming shield logistics per level
This wouldn't effect bastion mode, cause bastion still can't receive logistics. This bonus would focus solely on fleets without using bastion..
I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be OP.. If it was, then it would be OP for them to have the local bonus per level anyway.. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8250
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:14:00 -
[5847] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Silent Cyborg wrote:do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram. Not exactly. As a mission runner I can tell you that I don't use webs on my Kronos, whether it's Railguns or Blasters fit. There are just better uses for that mid slot and I'll gladly trade this bonus for those coming with Rubicon. And the length of the thread indicates only that so many people have strong, if contradictory, opinions of this ship class. Or rather, that some people are such opinionated. This way or another, it means that ANY balance update will **** someone.
The thread is long because its getting on for two months old. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:16:00 -
[5848] - Quote
Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8252
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:17:00 -
[5849] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have one question.
In reguards to no t2 resists on the hull, and the belief that these ships suck outside of bastion...
Would it be possible to allow the base hull rep/boost bonus to also effect incoming logistics?
I.E. - Golem - 7.5% bonus to local shield boosts and incoming shield logistics per level
This wouldn't effect bastion mode, cause bastion still can't receive logistics. This bonus would focus solely on fleets without using bastion..
I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be OP.. If it was, then it would be OP for them to have the local bonus per level anyway..
It would be very OP. Unbonused ships can already tank the combined firepower of hundreds of battleships. Such fleets would be borderline impossible to stop. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:17:00 -
[5850] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:I'm glad you are sticking with the (now improved) initial rebalance idea. Can't wait to try them out!
Get on test server... they're awesome.
Google Eve online test server and click on the Eve wiki link. Will explain to you how to do test server without killing your TQ file.
|
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
51
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:18:00 -
[5851] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Thatd be a bad idea. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8252
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:20:00 -
[5852] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:The problem with incursions is that they are designed so you have to fly a battleship and try to hit frigs doing 3km/s .... its not real pvp in any sense of the word incursions are totally backwards .. they are broken and need fixing really don't blame Ytterbium for not catering to a broken system
To be fair, CCP Ytterbium's tactic of MJD out and blap the small stuff as they chase is the best way of dealing with them. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
195
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:20:00 -
[5853] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
Well I am a Inc FC to and used to tell people every day that the stupid stuff they come up with doesn't work, because you kind of know what works and what not after a few years, flying and fcing nearly all gang compositions(from legion blitz, 11+1 contest setups, grid stuff that is based around 90% webs or contest setups that are based around instalock and alpha, static gangs, mwd fleets and what not). If you try this things on the live server you will get face raped by ICU or other channels with contest setups, because 11+1 one slot tanked dps will wish the floor with active tanked marauders, bastion is useless for bigger sites and the only reason marauders get used is that they are competitive, without being competitive you lose the pilots and everything falls apart.
Is it really so much to ask for to keep the current marauders in the game(even with all her issues) as 2. type of marauder? This is not only for Incs(also for most other PVE) but a lot of other applications(including pvping with 90% webs in ships that are not bricks) to where the old marauders are a lot better than the new ones. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:23:00 -
[5854] - Quote
Doed wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Thatd be a bad idea.
Agreed, that would mean the Golem would be given 2-3 extra mids for whatever. Leaving the TP bonus means that they require the TPs instead of having tons of extra mids. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:25:00 -
[5855] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Sounds like a bad idea tbh.
The TP benefits your whole gang, the explo radius bonus only yourself. And it's not even as good as the TP bonus.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Tragedy
The Creepshow
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:25:00 -
[5856] - Quote
Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks? |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1345
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:25:00 -
[5857] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The Djego wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.
People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required. Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's? They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements. The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.
It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics. It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times. The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before. WH pve, lvl 5 missions... Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's. If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.
Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?
You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec? Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.
The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.
Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.
No one will use these boats in low sec, nor wormholes, nor in high sec when at war, nor in high sec near gankers, nor ANY incursion, nor in NPC null sec, nor outside any non-secure null sec enclave.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8252
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:26:00 -
[5858] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks?
less of it has rusted so its heavier. |

Epic Rupture
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:26:00 -
[5859] - Quote
Changes as they stand right now are pretty good. Can't really understand why there are so many incursion runners' tears here. Pirate Battleships, in terms of incursions, out class Muarders in every way pre-, and eventually, post-patch. Use the right ship. Stop being lazy and train the other battleship you need and be more help to your fleet.
In terms of PVP, it's something new and I'm excited to see it potential.
|

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
419
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:31:00 -
[5860] - Quote
PvE is ridiculously easy already, why are CCP making it easier? |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8252
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:31:00 -
[5861] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?
People used to drop titans in level 5s and null anoms before the tracking nerf. They still drop supers in null anoms.
Yes people will use these ships. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8252
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:32:00 -
[5862] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:PvE is ridiculously easy already, why are CCP making it easier?
The changes are geared towards PvP. PvE gets buffed as a side effect. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1345
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:32:00 -
[5863] - Quote
Epic Rupture wrote:Changes as they stand right now are pretty good. Can't really understand why there are so many incursion runners' tears here. Pirate Battleships, in terms of incursions, out class Muarders in every way pre-, and eventually, post-patch. Use the right ship. Stop being lazy and train the other battleship you need and be more helpful to your fleet.
In terms of PVP, it's something new and I'm excited to see it potential.
Sigh....you might want to re-examine your post.
1. Paladin's wipe the floor for any other armour set up, and many shield setups. 2. Marauder pilots have ALL the skills that a pirate BS pilots has, and then some. The pre-req's demand it. 3. Let's see how much you are gloating when pirate BS's are "rebalanced". Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:32:00 -
[5864] - Quote
The real problem with Marauders in incursions is if you're going to use them for Incursions, you have to have a fleet full of them. Pirate BSes and Marauders don't mix, the Pirate BS need remote reps and the Marauders don't. The main attraction of bringing Marauders is you can ditch all your logi pilots and increase DPS because all your ships can local tank full aggro. If you need webs, you can just have one or two dedicated webbing ships and have the Marauders remote rep them. Unlike say a Mach the web ship doesn't need to fly around everywhere so it can stay close in, in RR range.
The odds of being able to put together an Incursion fleet of Marauders are pretty thin, especially if you want all of the same type. Not a lot of people have AWU V, BS V, and T2 large guns trained. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
196
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:33:00 -
[5865] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The Djego wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.
People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required. Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's? They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements. The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.
It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics. It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times. The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before. WH pve, lvl 5 missions... Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's. If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.
A uber tank requires zero attention, that is the reason why people fit a uber tank in the first place. They can do WH and L5 with them atm to the problem is just that you need to utilize RR(what marauders can do very well).
As a hint, dangers for pve in L5 and WH is very trivial(it is very predictable, if you have to you can find a guide on how to do something in a few seconds using goggle) compared getting ganked by other players and this is actually the biggest problem to people that don't pay attention. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1345
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:36:00 -
[5866] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?
People used to drop titans in level 5s and null anoms before the tracking nerf. They still drop supers in null anoms. Yes people will use these ships.
Wow, you are a one-man propaganda team. I would drop a Nyx into an anom too, if I was living in goon space, with intel channels telling me what is happening 20 jumps out, and I was far out of jump range of any hot drop.
But of course, in NPC null, that tactic of dropping a Nyx into an anom would be something that gets pilots kicked from corps. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:36:00 -
[5867] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
field command resist profile and make the bastion like a dcuii that way you can do rr if you want or solo tank if thats how you play... remember options are a good thing.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

baltec1
Bat Country
8253
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:38:00 -
[5868] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?
People used to drop titans in level 5s and null anoms before the tracking nerf. They still drop supers in null anoms. Yes people will use these ships. Wow, you are a one-man propaganda team. I would drop a Nyx into an anom too, if I was living in goon space, with intel channels telling me what is happening 20 jumps out, and I was far out of jump range of any hot drop. But of course, in NPC null, that tactic of dropping a Nyx into an anom would be something that gets pilots kicked from corps.
Actually we dont do this because carrier ratting is dumb. Nyx ratting is a Russian thing. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2864

|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:38:00 -
[5869] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post .
Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:39:00 -
[5870] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Silent Cyborg wrote:do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram. Not exactly. As a mission runner I can tell you that I don't use webs on my Kronos, whether it's Railguns or Blasters fit. There are just better uses for that mid slot and I'll gladly trade this bonus for those coming with Rubicon. And the length of the thread indicates only that so many people have strong, if contradictory, opinions of this ship class. Or rather, that some people are such opinionated. This way or another, it means that ANY balance update will **** someone. The thread is long because its getting on for two months old. True dat. However if my memory serves me right, it has been upgraded to threadnaught since day one. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
329
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:39:00 -
[5871] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves: I think you guys got Marauders right this time (!!) These were never intended as short-range platforms, so I'm glad to see the web bonuses replaced by ones more applicable to their role. Even though they don't have full T2 resists, the enhanced resists, additional speed and hull buffs are welcome changes. KUDOS (!!)
(now if we could just change the color, hint, hint...) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:40:00 -
[5872] - Quote
Epic Rupture wrote:Changes as they stand right now are pretty good. Can't really understand why there are so many incursion runners' tears here. Pirate Battleships, in terms of incursions, out class Muarders in every way pre-, and eventually, post-patch. Use the right ship. Stop being lazy and train the other battleship you need and be more helpful to your fleet.
In terms of PVP, it's something new and I'm excited to see it potential.
You sir clearly do not understand a thing about incs and probably don't even run them |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:41:00 -
[5873] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
it would make sense you can't favour 1 out 4 ships ... besides they can still use a unbonused TP to great effect but at least its not compulsory like it is atm.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Silent Cyborg
WIFI Express TAXU
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:44:00 -
[5874] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
I wonder Why is there no CSM approving and or voicing parse for these changes??? |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1347
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:44:00 -
[5875] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
Look, maybe you have some kind of difficulty with math. You are NOT freeing up mid slots. You are TAKING THEM AWAY on Marauders.
Every word you type states clearly that we must use the MjD to get the full effect of the ship. That is one mid slot. And you NEED at least one more mid slot for cap recharging when using an active tank. Yes, I have tested this on Sisi and it is true. So that is 2 slots gone, at least, in the mids.
I would be more than happy to get onto Sisi with you, and actually test these ships. I can fly all 4. Then you can show me whatever fit you have, and let's see how it actually performs compared to the ship today on TQ. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
329
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:44:00 -
[5876] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. How about a +5% rate of fire for the Golem instead? Paladin gets a +5% damage bonus, Kronos gets a +5% damage bonus and Vargur gets a +5% rate of fire. The RNI still fills a role of applying damage more effectively (explosion radius bonus) and the SNI still benefits from a larger tank and increased shield resists. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8253
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:45:00 -
[5877] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: True dat. However if my memory serves me right, it has been upgraded to threadnaught since day one.
Most of it is just paper craft. The testing didn't start till the other week and most of the negative replies are from people who either have not tested them or want them to be like the pirate battleships. |

luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:48:00 -
[5878] - Quote
They still have a massive drawback....Pirate battleships. Why would you pay a billion isk and have such a heavy skill investment for something that isn't as good as pirate battleships for the given role. They either need to be cheaper, or the skill investment needs to be reduced. There would have to be a massive nerf to the damage pirate battleships can do in order to make them worth using. You can't even use these ships in low or null security space because of the high chance one of the new interceptors will tackle them before they even come out of bastion, much less warp out. These will see the same limited use after the novelty of bastion wears off as they saw before....You don't need more tank for level 4s and they still can't run level 5s because of energy neutralizors and the high chance of death that comes from using them in low security. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1347
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:48:00 -
[5879] - Quote
Silent Cyborg wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. \I wonder Why is there no CSM approving and or voicing parse for these changes???
Pretty simple answer on that one. CSM is dominated by the null sec cartels, sprinkled with a couple wh players. Neither group had much interest on the Marauder class before, and certainly won't have any interest in them now. Of course, unless you live in a completely secure null sec enclave. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:50:00 -
[5880] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
has CCP spoken about cap warfare immunity?
This is a major weak point of Marauders.
Is it intended, or since they can't receive reps/cap, are y'all considering cap warfare immunity? |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1347
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:51:00 -
[5881] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote: i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s
They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions). Another one of your delusions. All those guys in Paladins and Kronos in incursions are doing wrong, right? And the all Paladin/2 Oni fleet that mopped the floor with all the other armour fleets, and many shield fleets, that doesn't happen, right. Give it up. We all know that you are trolling, or recognize that these proposed changes wreck the class of boat. A class you have no intention of using, so your attempts a defending this abomination is because of the jollies you get on wrecking the game for others. I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings. The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs. You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.
Errrr...been there on Sisi, have pushed them to the limit until they blow up. And yeah, they are worse, much much worse off. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

TehCloud
Mastercard.
144
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:52:00 -
[5882] - Quote
Dear CCP Rise
How about you guys just add a new Marauder Hull (Tier 3 BS) to the game and stop trying to appeal to everyone with the current Marauders? The way it seems now, the missionrunners will not be pleased and PvPers will be forced to snipe since without a web bonus they have no chance of keeping targets within their range before the Bastion cycle finishes.
Give those new Marauders a Web Bonus, but no MJD Reduction. Make use of those sexy Tier 3 Hulls and the barely used Ship Developers like Rhoden shipyards.
You can make the current Marauders to be better at what they're doing now. And the new ones to be good at what the currents are horrible at.
Quote:My idea of a Rhoden Shipyards Hyperion
6 Highs. 4 Launcher Hardpoints -> 1 Utility High with Bastion Module 5 Mids - same as the T1 Hype 7 Lows
Role Bonus: 100% Damage Increase to Cruise Missiles/Torps
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount and 5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion radius per level
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% Bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
Dronebay should be around 100m3 with a bandwidth of maybe 40-75
Gallente Missile BS and a red Hyperion Hull, pwetty pwease.
A Marauder like that can drop the bonus to MJD and Tractor Beams and would have to sacrifice a bit of it's cargo to prevent it from being unkillable if not neuted into oblivion.
If you actually read this I'd be happy with at least some feedback on why this is a terrible idea, because I fear that it is even if it makes perfect sense to me :)
Regards, TehCloud My Condor costs less than that module! |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:57:00 -
[5883] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:hmskrecik wrote: True dat. However if my memory serves me right, it has been upgraded to threadnaught since day one.
Most of it is just paper craft. The testing didn't start till the other week and most of the negative replies are from people who either have not tested them or want them to be like the pirate battleships. I don't deny it. To remind, my point was that the length of the thread indicates only that there are people with opinions strong enough to generate thread of such length. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8254
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:58:00 -
[5884] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
has CCP spoken about cap warfare immunity?
This is a major weak point of Marauders.
Is it intended, or since they can't receive reps/cap, are y'all considering cap warfare immunity?
I would say intended. All the other ships that get E-war invulnerability have the same weakness to neuts. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
140
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:59:00 -
[5885] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
- We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
Why does bastion mode so clearly favor optimal range weapon systems, ie. Rails, Beams, Pulse and (Artillery)? At 25% optimal range (TC+script 15%, TE 10%), it is guaranteed a top spot in the stacking penalty chain, giving an actual benefit. But since the falloff bonus is also 25% and not the usual optimal-to-falloff progression of TCs and TEs, the bastion bonus to falloff loses against TC+script (30%), putting it in a low stacking penalty position.
You are worried about the pulse paladin, therefor you limit the modules effect on Blasters and Autocannons. |

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
643
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:00:00 -
[5886] - Quote
Overall these changes seems pretty good, and while I see some of you complaining about the web bonus, keep in mind that some marauders like the Golem also have to fit a tank and MJD to their medslots while not even having 8 of them.
This said, I also understand Ytterbium's point about the benefits of having a TP instead of explosion radius bonus. But speaking of missile stats, wouldn't it be a GREAT idea to start talking about this damned missile computer/enhancer/remote missile computer that was planned some time ago ?
Because that's always the problem... How do you uniformly balance Marauders, and their interactions (or lack of) with remote tracking computers, when one of them is the black sheep and does not follow the same rules ?
How do you carefuly calibrate Marauder's DPS when, hopefully soon enough, a module (missile computer) might come and change everything ?
That's exactly the same problem than Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers : Creating a module with balanced stats, based on a weapon system (heavy missiles) that is clearly underpowered (I challenge you CCP to find intern metrics that contradicts me)... Means that when you rebalance Heavy missiles, you also have to rebalance a newly created module. That's a waiste of time.
Of course there is also the possibility of leaving them in their previous state of uselesness but what's the point then ?
Finally, I simply don't get CCP's point of view concerning Marauders in general. That's not related to your recent posts CCP Ytterbium, that's more a constant feeling : 1- Being worried about them being able to solo first waves of incursions with deadspace modules 2- Keeping an useless tractor beam bonus instead of buffing it, because at the same time the Marauder is turning into an IMMOBILE PLATFORM. 3- No variation of the bastion mode for structure bashing ? While at the same time making multimillion EHP structures in High sec bashable ?
Are you worried about having Marauders becoming too OP ? Come on ! This ship requires the same training time than a CARRIER and it costs almost the same thing ! It surely should desserve some awesomeness ! Even more given that it won't be able to tackle anything anyway since it can't move and is very vulnerable against ECM.
1- Tanking some incursions waves ? Given the price and skills, plus the fact that you fit DEADSPACE MODULES on it, why not ? 2- Want people to use this new tractor platform that you're making ? Well everyone that's not in a Marauder will probably tempted to use it anyway. 3- This one.. I can't even find a reason why not to do it.
So yes... Some things, I don't understand :D
PS : The only positive point that I find for the Golem now concerning its DPS (because other aspects like tank and the synergy with MJD are an awesome idea) is that at least, for once it does not have kinetic-specific bonuses, and it has some drones again. :) G££ <= Me |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:01:00 -
[5887] - Quote
Bonjour mai ami. Please consider one slight change some people who do enjoy group pve. And from what I heard threw the grape vine pve in 0.0 is moving to a group concept.
Group pve usually depends on logi ships. Now the 30% to resist is great and I love it but that doesn't help the ship outside of bastion mode. But if you increased the current resistance to something simular that old field command ships got... this would make the ship much more viable for group oriented pve. Obviously the resistance bonus for the bastion would have to be reduced. I feel that standard damage control resist would work perfectly so 12% to shields and 15% to armor but I would keep hull at 30%...
I think this would appease both play styles of solo and group pve There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Valterra Craven
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:02:00 -
[5888] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:
Why didn't you buff the fittings?
We estimate the CPU / PWG on them to be adequate. We are aware of some tight fittings, but we don't want those hulls to be able to easily fit a full rack of top tier turrets / launchers with Energy Neutralizers plus a full tank, as it would be quite over the top.
You can't fit a full rack of guns and tank right now even if you don't use neuts.... the fittings on these ships is stupid.
[Golem, Short Range copy 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
100MN Microwarpdrive II X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Field II Kinetic Deflection Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
That right there with all lvl 5 fittings skills doesn't fit... you are over on CPU and GRID, and there isn't a tractor, a salvager or a siege mod on the stupid thing. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:09:00 -
[5889] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:
I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings.
The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs.
You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.
Bastion is completely useless for Incs, you can easily spider tank VGs with marauders(it is however slower than doing the sites with 1-2 logis). Normal 60% webs are close to useless, nobody uses them really and as a hint the reason why nobody uses mjd in Incs because it is ******* useless. As for your grain of salt, go FC some Incs for a couple of months, try to beat ICU and other relative good channels with her contest setups(that means taking on max skilled pilots in 100-200B isk fleets in the site) and then talk about tactics in Incursions.
Also since you don't know the web bonuses came from marauders, they put them on the serpentis hulls because they where useless like any blaster hull after the sledgehammer nerf in 2008(and blasters are still a joke compared to a working point blank dps weapon they where back in the days). Also please show me a single thread from the last 6 years where people complain that the web bonuses on marauders are OP, I am waiting.
Joe Risalo wrote: Uber passive tanks require little attention.
These ships are active tanks and drop quickly when not boosting/repping.
You mean it is hard to pay attention to tank in my marauders, when I use 25% of what you use while doing the same stuff? Really? Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8254
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:14:00 -
[5890] - Quote
Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into. |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:21:00 -
[5891] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into.
Big words for somebody that doesn't know how and what the Kronos did better then the Vindi so far. Also it is you that wants to turn the Kronos into something super niche and not useful, all things considered I rather would prefer it stays as it is. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8255
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:26:00 -
[5892] - Quote
The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into. Big words for somebody that doesn't know how and what the Kronos did better then the Vindi so far. Also it is you that wants to turn the Kronos into something super niche and not useful, all things considered I rather would prefer it stays as it is.
You want bonused web. That's the vindis job.
You want an in your face blaster boat. That's the vindis job.
The new kronos is no longer a poor copy of the vindi it is its own ship. |

neuva
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:29:00 -
[5893] - Quote
The Djego wrote: Bastion is completely useless for Incs, you can easily spider tank VGs with marauders(it is however slower than doing the sites with 1-2 logis). Normal 60% webs are close to useless, nobody uses them really and as a hint the reason why nobody uses mjd in Incs because it is ******* useless. As for your grain of salt, go FC some Incs for a couple of months, try to beat ICU and other relative good channels with her contest setups(that means taking on max skilled pilots in 100-200B isk fleets in the site) and then talk about tactics in Incursions.
This. +1
Appereantly they did high level incursion internal testing ..yeah...
Way to go on promoting solo play in an mmo CCP. Without t2 resists, no logis, good luck with your skill intensive and expensive BS in highlevel incursions...
Please, dont say PvP, about a ship which has tractor bonus. Dont force people to use MJD. No one, i repeat, No one is going to say " Oh ****, I need a marauder if I want to use MJD!" ..and T1 BS already enjoys MJD, Dont force it with pathetic bonuses.
Give us Ships that work, not Schizophrenic Space Junk.
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:30:00 -
[5894] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The new kronos is no longer a poor copy of the vindi it is its own ship.
indeed
the kronos with 425 II with jav ammo shoots out to 80km... it turns rails into long range autocannons There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:30:00 -
[5895] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: WHy to give a FAKE 5 ms speed advantage for the vargur when he mass cancels it? WHY?
Not empty quoting.
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
198
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:33:00 -
[5896] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The Djego wrote:baltec1 wrote:Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into. Big words for somebody that doesn't know how and what the Kronos did better then the Vindi so far. Also it is you that wants to turn the Kronos into something super niche and not useful, all things considered I rather would prefer it stays as it is. You want bonused web. That's the vindis job. You want an in your face blaster boat. That's the vindis job. The new kronos is no longer a poor copy of the vindi it is its own ship.
The Serpentis hulls got the bonus from marauders, because they where useless without it. It is not the vindis job to web stuff down, it is just that the hull is **** poor as a blaster ship without it.
You totally fail at reading comprehension, try again.
The Kronos never was a poor copy of the Vindicator, but required a few touches on the drone bay since her introduction in 2007 to actually be the useful rail+sentry ship it was designed to be. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Kul Mazuf
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:34:00 -
[5897] - Quote
Changes are still **** Ytterbium
-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection - increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place. - Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss. - Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:35:00 -
[5898] - Quote
neuva wrote:The Djego wrote: Bastion is completely useless for Incs, you can easily spider tank VGs with marauders(it is however slower than doing the sites with 1-2 logis). Normal 60% webs are close to useless, nobody uses them really and as a hint the reason why nobody uses mjd in Incs because it is ******* useless. As for your grain of salt, go FC some Incs for a couple of months, try to beat ICU and other relative good channels with her contest setups(that means taking on max skilled pilots in 100-200B isk fleets in the site) and then talk about tactics in Incursions.
This. +1 Appereantly they did high level incursion internal testing ..yeah... Way to go on promoting solo play in an mmo CCP. Without t2 resists, no logis, good luck with your skill intensive and expensive BS in highlevel incursions... Please, dont say PvP, about a ship which has tractor bonus. Dont force people to use MJD. No one, i repeat, No one is going to say " Oh ****, I need a marauder if I want to use MJD!" ..and T1 BS already enjoys MJD, Dont force it with pathetic bonuses. Give us Ships that work, not Schizophrenic Space Junk.
you do know pve means more then just incusions eh?
though i do agree with tech II resists... but not full resist only partial like the old field command ships... if you would like to see an example of what i am talking about look at evelopedia : https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Astarte ... now take those resists and put it on the kronos and now change the bastion to add the same resists as a DCU II... now both parties can take advantage of the ship.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
895
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:40:00 -
[5899] - Quote
This thread makes a pretty convincing argument that highsec incursions were a mistake. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:42:00 -
[5900] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Silent Cyborg wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. \I wonder Why is there no CSM approving and or voicing parse for these changes??? Pretty simple answer on that one. CSM is dominated by the null sec cartels, sprinkled with a couple wh players. Neither group had much interest on the Marauder class before, and certainly won't have any interest in them now. Of course, unless you live in a completely secure null sec enclave.
To be honest I heard the CSMs were having issues when trying to post here. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:44:00 -
[5901] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:This thread makes a pretty convincing argument that highsec incursions were a mistake.
lol..
Or maybe a bastioned Marauder can tank an incursion long enough for the npcs to swap targets?
Has anyone considered that?
Not to mention, with the fits that many of us put on Marauders, there's not a whole lot more we can do to change how we fly incursions...
most I would do in my Golem is drop shield and cap booster for.... more resists? Maybe shield expanders? Drop bastion and put what in that high slot?
Might as well leave the tank and not have to rely on logistics. |

Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
674
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:47:00 -
[5902] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference).
That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!!
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1348
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:48:00 -
[5903] - Quote
BTW CCP Geniuses, please elaborate on how Marauders will work in Incursions when you force boosters on-grid? How will the Command ship MjD with the Marauders?
Because you have explained to us who wonderful the Bastion mode is and how we won't need logi's in Incursions anymore. Guess you will have to give the Command ship a MjD bonus, or give Marauders 100 km range on reppers....
And this will of course be extended to any group doing L5's, or of course, for all those roaming gangs of Marauders looking for PvP and utilizing the Bastion module and MjD to its fullest extent.
Suddenly, your Command ship is 100 km from its repping ships.
As I said, pure genius. You guys have really thought this through. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
564
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:49:00 -
[5904] - Quote
so has anyone tested to see if ganglinks work in Bastion mode? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:51:00 -
[5905] - Quote
Kul Mazuf wrote:Changes are still **** Ytterbium
-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection - increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place. - Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss. - Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE
Yup - as for Vargur - its a crying shame. The Kronos and Vargur dps is laughable. |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:51:00 -
[5906] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:BTW CCP Geniuses, please elaborate on how Marauders will work in Incursions when you force boosters on-grid? How will the Command ship MjD with the Marauders?
Because you have explained to us who wonderful the Bastion mode is and how we won't need logi's in Incursions anymore. Guess you will have to give the Command ship a MjD bonus, or give Marauders 100 km range on reppers....
And this will of course be extended to any group doing L5's, or of course, for all those roaming gangs of Marauders looking for PvP and utilizing the Bastion module and MjD to its fullest extent.
Suddenly, your Command ship is 100 km from its repping ships.
As I said, pure genius. You guys have really thought this through.
You do realize you can do incursions without boosts right?
CCP you might want to think about bumping up your Pirate Battleship nerf to sooner rather than later. would do a great deal to quell many of the complaints. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
588
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 15:51:00 -
[5907] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference). That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!!
I don't believe ships are immune to TP with ewar immunity.. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8258
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:10:00 -
[5908] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Kul Mazuf wrote:Changes are still **** Ytterbium
-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection - increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place. - Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss. - Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE
Yup - as for Vargur - its a crying shame. The Kronos and Vargur dps is laughable.
Kronos has the same fire power as a normal megas guns. |

neuva
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:12:00 -
[5909] - Quote
How hard can it be to adapt/rescale the Siege Module I into a Bastion Module I. Why force MJD? its a nice module, but nothing to be specialized on, unlike other modules (Interdiction Probes, Scanning etc)..We already use MJD when ever we see necessary.
Let the marauders be a proper PvE ship, goes siege mode in its respective(balanced damnit, balanced!) stats..So we players can decide where to use it and how to use it..
Currently you are trying to specialize this krap into Bastion + MJD + Tractorlul.
Really? Why not treat it like a proper internet spaceship instead of mutating it into a "very spesific" way of playing..All you say is "YOU HAVE TO USE TEH SHIP BY MJD AND BASTION AND TRACTOR"
You know what, this is not specializing, its forcing a way of playing it...Just look at ANY other T2 ship below the BS line, name me one ship which suffers from serious Schizophrenia as the Proposed Marauders does.
Just make it use bastion nicely, and pat the stats on the shoulder by buffing bloody useful bonuses a bit, and leave us, the players to decide how to use it...
This is the first time in Eve history, CCP is forcing players to "play liek dis!". |

marVLs
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:22:00 -
[5910] - Quote
Quick queston for CCP Ytterbium:
Do You plan to add T2 version of Bastion?
Because last times we get many new modules etc. but all of them are only in t1 version (even salvage drones...) |
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
54
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:29:00 -
[5911] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Kul Mazuf wrote:Changes are still **** Ytterbium
-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection - increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place. - Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss. - Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE
Yup - as for Vargur - its a crying shame. The Kronos and Vargur dps is laughable.
Not sure about the Kronos (I dislike hybrids), but the Vargur has the same paper DPS as a Maelstrom, but better applied thru tracking bonuses and falloff bonuses, using half the ammo.
After some EFT-warring, my new Vargur can almost match a Machariel paper DPS wise, (951 vs 927). Granted, I'm forcing the fit a bit on both and using implants to help compensate where compensation is needed.
As for incursions, the new 8 high-slot marauder can prove to be an interesting ship. Spider tanking, and forgo Bastion all together. Haven't tested it out, as there's not enough people willing to go into sisi and have marauders skills yet (knock knock, can we do something about it?). Finally, yes, pirate hulls are superior than marauders, but to be superior you have to have 2 battleship skills trained up. For a machariel to be effective, AWU5 is a must, projectile rigging 5 is a must, gallente and minmatar battleship 5 is a must.
I just find it a bit annoying that the vargur requires now more training for Bastion to work and MJD around, but well, I already invested into Marauders 5, might as well go all the way...
To the positive side though, thank you Ytterbium for listening to the buffer problems. I'll be sure to test how they fare now (deadspaced omni tank fit and not even 100k ehp was way too low). Also thank you for the drones. Now I can carry more light drones and salvage drones, without worrying that I'll run out quickly of sets of lights.
For missions I'm thinking triple salvager setup with the tractor structure dropped next to me. Gotta test these out. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:30:00 -
[5912] - Quote
Quote: CCP Ytterbium There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support.
Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  .
why, o why, so much hate against our friends, logistic pilots?!  |

Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
784
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:36:00 -
[5913] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
another + would be it would benefit much more from other peoples target painters or other modifiers vs the target = to a tracking bonus which is better if you ask me... if people need bonused target painters, recons or new eaf will be good enough Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
584
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:37:00 -
[5914] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
I hope you realize that the "Uses a slot and fittings (you forgot the uses fittings)" is worht a lot of MINUSES when comapred to any of those other points. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:39:00 -
[5915] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Quote: CCP Ytterbium There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support.
Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  . why, o why, so much hate against our friends, logistic pilots?! 
Because when it comes to logistics, there are only two states of being for incursions as far as I have seen:
1) Not enough logistics, fleet waits for more. 2) Too many logistics, people sitting around doing nothing. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
54
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:46:00 -
[5916] - Quote
Oh, I forgot to add something!!
Please CCP, give your deisgners and artists something to do, and make so that the Vargur in Bastion doesn't look like I'm silly and forgot to move.
Bastion transformations should be more obvious, like opening flats, or compacting the hull, or something. As it stands, the Vargur adds platings to the wingy btis (on a shield ship) and something under the bridge moves. Perhaps open some plates like the Golem too? Or Contract the hull "protecting" the exposed orange areas? Tucking in the engines (we're immobile anyways)? Popping the guns out? Something more obvious to the changes of the hull. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:50:00 -
[5917] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference). That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!! I don't believe ships are immune to TP with ewar immunity..
they are, I engaged a paladin in the golem and my tp cycle shut of when he bastioned
|

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
565
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:53:00 -
[5918] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference). That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!! I don't believe ships are immune to TP with ewar immunity.. they are, I engaged a paladin in the golem and my tp cycle shut of when he bastioned
that's a big disadvantage over having it as a built in bonus
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:54:00 -
[5919] - Quote
You're getting there CCP. Now just look at maruaders on tranquility and realize that they are fine and nobody is complaining about their performance.  |

Siddicus
Nation of Sidd Order of the Exalted
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:55:00 -
[5920] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Siddicus wrote:gascanu wrote:Quote: CCP Ytterbium There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support.
Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  . why, o why, so much hate against our friends, logistic pilots?!  Because when it comes to logistics, there are only two states of being for incursions as far as I have seen: 1) Not enough logistics, fleet waits for more. 2) Too many logistics, people sitting around doing nothing. 3) Ppl can fly both dps and logi so they can change ships when or what they need
Can and do are two very very different things. Yes some do, but the vast majority don't. |
|

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:55:00 -
[5921] - Quote
Quote:CCP Ytterbium
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursion
also: did your internal play test have shown how ******** easy is to gank one of those "kiting trough the MJD" marauders? i gues you didn't really have gankers on your "internal paly test" eh? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
589
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:59:00 -
[5922] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well. Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference). That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!! I don't believe ships are immune to TP with ewar immunity.. they are, I engaged a paladin in the golem and my tp cycle shut of when he bastioned
At least Marauders are large enough targets for missiles to be pretty effective against..
Not to mention they're immobile |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:02:00 -
[5923] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
At least Marauders are large enough targets for missiles to be pretty effective against..
Not to mention they're immobile
Aside from the immobility, their signature has been greatly reduced, that's a HUGE advantage. The main problem with a Paladin in incursions was that ungodly signature, and the Golem was right behind, even worse with shield penalties.
EDIT: Wording/idea wasn't well expressed Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:05:00 -
[5924] - Quote
When is the Golem getting a RHML bonus? |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:07:00 -
[5925] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Quote:CCP Ytterbium
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursion
also: did your internal play test have shown how ******** easy is to gank one of those "kiting trough the MJD" marauders? i gues you didn't really have gankers on your "internal paly test" eh? They didn't, with bastion it becomes the most easy to gank ship to find in anomalies, unless the EW immunity lasts some seconds after the bastion is shut down, but even that won't save it from a proper gank, 100km is very easy to cover with a fast ship before the maradeur manages to warp away. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
199
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:08:00 -
[5926] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:
As for incursions, the new 8 high-slot marauder can prove to be an interesting ship. Spider tanking, and forgo Bastion all together. Haven't tested it out, as there's not enough people willing to go into sisi and have marauders skills yet (knock knock, can we do something about it?).
RR on shield marauders is meh, because of the high CPU requirements of shield transfers(it gimps your fitting), it only really works on armor marauders(this is not sissi testing, but tested in a full marauder setup that rolls live on TQ).
Btw, you just need to join the moveme channel and type in "bastion", it gives you marauders 5 and the skills for bastion.
Serge SC wrote:The main problem with a Paladin in incursions was that ungodly signature, and the Golem was right behind, even worse with shield penalties.
The main problem of the paladin is the low lock speed in contests, however without the web bonus it makes it a lot worse for grind. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
584
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:15:00 -
[5927] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
At least Marauders are large enough targets for missiles to be pretty effective against..
Not to mention they're immobile
Aside from the immobility, their signature has been greatly reduced, that's a HUGE advantage. The main problem with a Paladin in incursions was that ungodly signature, and the Golem was right behind, even worse with shield penalties. EDIT: Wording/idea wasn't well expressed
Still large enough to take more damage than normal T1 battleships.
BTw I am selling my 2 vargurs, 1 paladin and 1 kronso. Now that ccp is throwing them into the garbage can of ships with this useles over tank but no offensive advantage mode. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1349
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:17:00 -
[5928] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Serge SC wrote:
As for incursions, the new 8 high-slot marauder can prove to be an interesting ship. Spider tanking, and forgo Bastion all together. Haven't tested it out, as there's not enough people willing to go into sisi and have marauders skills yet (knock knock, can we do something about it?).
RR on shield marauders is meh, because of the high CPU requirements of shield transfers(it gimps your fitting), it only really works on armor marauders(this is not sissi testing, but tested in a full marauder setup that rolls live on TQ). Btw, you just need to join the moveme channel and type in "bastion", it gives you marauders 5 and the skills for bastion.
Plus, I created threads on the test feedback forum and mission forum about getting people together to test. I have tested with less than optimal quantities, and that alone showed how bad these changes are. I would love to get 10 Paladin pilots on grid, with a Eos off grid, and fraps the whole thing, and load on You Tube.
But CCP won't listen. Guys like Yitterbum refuse to see the reality of this mess.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:29:00 -
[5929] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
RR on shield marauders is meh, because of the high CPU requirements of shield transfers(it gimps your fitting), it only really works on armor marauders(this is not sissi testing, but tested in a full marauder setup that rolls live on TQ).
Btw, you just need to join the moveme channel and type in "bastion", it gives you marauders 5 and the skills for bastion.
The main problem of the paladin is the low lock speed in contests, however without the web bonus it makes it a lot worse for grind.
Hmm I was pretty sure it only gave bastion related skills...uuhh good to know it gives the full set of skills!
Well, the lock speed has been fixed, somewhat. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

baltec1
Bat Country
8258
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:34:00 -
[5930] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Plus, I created threads on the test feedback forum and mission forum about getting people together to test. I have tested with less than optimal quantities, and that alone showed how bad these changes are.
No it just shows yet again the attitude of the average pve player. They never test anything then whine for months that things changed even if that change benefits them. Literally the only people not happy with this change are the incursion runners who want marauders to do the job of pirate battleships. |
|

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
119
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:36:00 -
[5931] - Quote
should have just given them bomb launchers Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:40:00 -
[5932] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Plus, I created threads on the test feedback forum and mission forum about getting people together to test. I have tested with less than optimal quantities, and that alone showed how bad these changes are.
No it just shows yet again the attitude of the average pve player. They never test anything then whine for months that things changed even if that change benefits them. Literally the only people not happy with this change are the incursion runners who want marauders to do the job of pirate battleships.
making maradeurs still useless exept for some situational pvp and even more for null/low pve isn't that much of a change. |

Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
254
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:45:00 -
[5933] - Quote
I really dislike the 5% cap capacity bonus per level on the Paladin.
Why? because it's just a hidden way of saying that the hull has 25% more cap than the base (amarr BS V is required to fly the ship) and it only gets 3 actual bonuses.
Please add 25% to the base cap and give the hull an actual bonus. Something Amarrian, like armor resistances or laser tracking, hell even a NOS bonus would be fair game. Just don't fall back into old habits. Remember when almost all amarr ships had that cap usage bonus for lasers, and you replaced it by reducing the cap usage of lasers and giving them actual bonuses? That's the same issue here.
"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:47:00 -
[5934] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But CCP won't listen. Guys like Yitterbum refuse to see the reality of this mess. The reality is that with the third iteration, Marauders are finally the ships the majority of us have been hoping for. I'm not sure if you've been following this from the beginning, but the latest revisions are light years from the original two proposals.
baltec1 wrote:No it just shows yet again the attitude of the average pve player. They never test anything then whine for months that things changed even if that change benefits them. Literally the only people not happy with this change are the incursion runners who want marauders to do the job of pirate battleships. Yeah, I have to concur. These haven't changed so radically that they'll be drastically different from the current Marauders for PvE. If anything, they should be better for PvE. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:48:00 -
[5935] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:should have just given them bomb launchers What for? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
119
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:56:00 -
[5936] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:should have just given them bomb launchers What for?
to bluntly force their design towards pvp. or static siegea. or capital warfare. or logi obliterating.
instead we get... this other thing...
give them bombs and the ability to lock on to cynos or give me my sp back Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:56:00 -
[5937] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Plus, I created threads on the test feedback forum and mission forum about getting people together to test. I have tested with less than optimal quantities, and that alone showed how bad these changes are.
No it just shows yet again the attitude of the average pve player. They never test anything then whine for months that things changed even if that change benefits them. Literally the only people not happy with this change are the incursion runners who want marauders to do the job of pirate battleships.
Typical goon response |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1349
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:02:00 -
[5938] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But CCP won't listen. Guys like Yitterbum refuse to see the reality of this mess. The reality is that with the third iteration, Marauders are finally the ships the majority of us have been hoping for. I'm not sure if you've been following this from the beginning, but the latest revisions are light years from the original two proposals. baltec1 wrote:No it just shows yet again the attitude of the average pve player. They never test anything then whine for months that things changed even if that change benefits them. Literally the only people not happy with this change are the incursion runners who want marauders to do the job of pirate battleships. Yeah, I have to concur. These haven't changed so radically that they'll be drastically different from the current Marauders for PvE. If anything, they should be better for PvE.
Not radically different eh...just shows how much of a troll you are. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:07:00 -
[5939] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:to bluntly force their design towards pvp. or static siegea. or capital warfare. or logi obliterating. instead we get... this other thing... give them bombs and the ability to lock on to cynos or give me my sp back Since when were bombs and cynos a criteria for Marauders? These are used outside of null-sec... In any event, Marauders just picked up an extra 4th high slot which doesn't necessarily need to be utilized for Bastion.
Octoven wrote:Typical goon response Regardless, he happens to be right.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Not radically different eh...just shows how much of a troll you are. Yes, not radically different. Bastion is an entirely optional if so desired. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
772
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:12:00 -
[5940] - Quote
21 minutes and 30 seconds to move an unplated Paladin 16 jumps. I'd love to compare against TQ but I never really got around to finishing my Marauder training. I will of course have to re-test that time once the mass changes come through.
Anyway, having a bit of experience with battleships and the like but no experience with TQ Marauders, I can say that these proposed changes (especially under Version 3) will be tying up a month or two of my training queue once Gallente Cruiser 5 finishes.
Also, since everyone likes to talk about Pirate Ships vs Marauders, I'm just going to leave this here... |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:24:00 -
[5941] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha, since you took offense with my "not radically different" comment, here's a short synopsis of the actual differences:
GÇó Marauders receive partial T2 resists (still superior to any other battleship) GÇó Marauders still receive the same shield boost and armor repair bonuses GÇó Marauders all receive one (1) additional high slot, more power grid, the same or more CPU, a net gain in shields/armor/hull, more capacitor, higher capacitor recharge rate, targeting range and scan resolution GÇó Marauders receive a reduction in mass and signature radius GÇó Paladin gets a 7.5% optimal range and Kronos gets 10% to falloff (maybe Golem gets something)
What are Marauders giving up? GÇó Paladin and Kronos lose the 10% stasis web velocity (which was going to be cut to 7.5% anyway) GÇó Drone bandwidth has been reduced by 50 GÇó Speed and agility have been slightly reduced
The only radical differences (optional) are the new 70% MJD reactivation and Bastion module, but these are both optional. So yes, they're not radically different in that the latest proposed Marauders are better overall. And they're infinitely better with the MJD and Bastion options (emphasis here on "option"). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Vendictus Prime
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:26:00 -
[5942] - Quote
Simple Solution;
When the changes go live, just let the marauder market tank, don't buy them , don't build them and then CCP might take notice of bad design changes.
Since I started playing Eve, in 2007, I have always known marauders to be the ultimate PVE battleship but as many have pointed out, a Machariel will run circles around them. As for PVP, I have been in null fleets since before the fall of the NC and no one is going to use these over priced hulls for null PVP to ANY degree. Alliances are not going so provide SRP for BS hulls that are as expensive as capitals, when they can buy and build 5 or 6 T1 battleships hulls for the same price.. especially when taking into consideration the utter crap state of null income potential at all levels, after all the hits to income generation.
1 additional thing, The new Golem stills looks like S*** . |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
586
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:27:00 -
[5943] - Quote
Vendictus Prime wrote:Simple Solution;
When the changes go live, just let the marauder market tank, don't buy them , don't build them and then CCP might take notice of bad design changes.
Since I started playing Eve, in 2007, I have always understood marauders to be the ultimate PVE battleship but as many have pointed out, a Machariel will run circles around them. As for PVP, I have been in null fleets since before the fall of the NC and no one is going to use these over priced hulls for null PVP to ANY degree. Alliances are not going so provide SRP for BS hulls that are as expensive as capitals, when they can buy and build 5 or 6 T1 battleships hulls for the same price.. especially when taking into consideration the utter crap state of null income potential at all levels, after all the hits to income generation.
1 additional thing, The new Golem stills looks like S*** .
nooo!!!! I want to get rid of my marauders!!!! do not listen to this guy!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
775
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:31:00 -
[5944] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Vendictus Prime wrote:Simple Solution;
When the changes go live, just let the marauder market tank, don't buy them , don't build them and then CCP might take notice of bad design changes.
Since I started playing Eve, in 2007, I have always understood marauders to be the ultimate PVE battleship but as many have pointed out, a Machariel will run circles around them. As for PVP, I have been in null fleets since before the fall of the NC and no one is going to use these over priced hulls for null PVP to ANY degree. Alliances are not going so provide SRP for BS hulls that are as expensive as capitals, when they can buy and build 5 or 6 T1 battleships hulls for the same price.. especially when taking into consideration the utter crap state of null income potential at all levels, after all the hits to income generation.
1 additional thing, The new Golem stills looks like S*** . nooo!!!! I want to get rid of my marauders!!!! do not listen to this guy!!!
Your marauders will definitely continue to sell after this - and maybe you'll have to increase production too. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
586
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:32:00 -
[5945] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But CCP won't listen. Guys like Yitterbum refuse to see the reality of this mess. The reality is that with the third iteration, Marauders are finally the ships the majority of us have been hoping for. I'm not sure if you've been following this from the beginning, but the latest revisions are light years from the original two proposals. .
You have been hoping for an useles ship that basically there is no reason to use over a T1 Battleship in PVP since they have less dps and that is worse in PVE than they used to be? Again because PVE is about making money and making money is about having BARELY enough tank and a LOT of dps?
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:34:00 -
[5946] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:You have been hoping for an useles ship that basically there is no reason to use over a T1 Battleship in PVP since they have less dps and that is worse in PVE than they used to be? Again because PVE is about making money and making money is about having BARELY enough tank and a LOT of dps? Why would you use an uninsurable $1-billion+ ISK hull in PvP? How are they worse in PVE exactly, since the DPS is roughly the same and the applied damage is actually better with some of the new bonuses (and not including the range bonuses with Bastion). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8265
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:38:00 -
[5947] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But CCP won't listen. Guys like Yitterbum refuse to see the reality of this mess. The reality is that with the third iteration, Marauders are finally the ships the majority of us have been hoping for. I'm not sure if you've been following this from the beginning, but the latest revisions are light years from the original two proposals. . You have been hoping for an useles ship that basically there is no reason to use over a T1 Battleship in PVP since they have less dps and that is worse in PVE than they used to be? Again because PVE is about making money and making money is about having BARELY enough tank and a LOT of dps?
Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:41:00 -
[5948] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve. I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:56:00 -
[5949] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha, since you took offense with my "not radically different" comment, here's a short synopsis of the actual differences:
GÇó Marauders receive partial T2 resists (still superior to any other battleship) GÇó Marauders still receive the same shield boost and armor repair bonuses GÇó Marauders all receive one (1) additional high slot, more power grid, the same or more CPU, a net gain in shields/armor/hull, more capacitor, higher capacitor recharge rate, targeting range and scan resolution GÇó Marauders receive a reduction in mass and signature radius GÇó Paladin gets a 7.5% optimal range and Kronos gets 10% to falloff (maybe Golem gets something)
What are Marauders giving up? GÇó Paladin and Kronos lose the 10% stasis web velocity (which was going to be cut to 7.5% anyway) GÇó Drone bandwidth has been reduced by 50 GÇó Speed and agility have been slightly reduced
The only radical differences (optional) are the new 70% MJD reactivation and Bastion module, but these are both optional. So yes, they're not radically different in that the latest proposed Marauders are better overall. And they're infinitely better with the MJD and Bastion options (emphasis here on "option").
The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Lucidia fern
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 18:58:00 -
[5950] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:*Ship Changes*
Seems a little one sided vs Paladin & Golem i must say, Why the substantial differences in the drone bays yet the paladin cannot keep its characteristically high cap (required for melting things) ?
Might be worth someone with the know how projecting out the full differences between the hulls as i get a strong feeling that they are improperly balanced against each other (maybe not as a result of these changes, but as a result of the original poor design).
|
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8270
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:00:00 -
[5951] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate.
So use the vindi which has the web bonus and has more firepower than the old kronos. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:04:00 -
[5952] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve. I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum.
if by losing the web bonus you think they can apply dps better... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8270
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:07:00 -
[5953] - Quote
gascanu wrote:if by losing the web bonus you think they can apply dps better... 
You do, at range.
But if you must have a web then use the vindi, which also happens to have 1902 more base armour HP than the old kronos. |

MARKEETTT ALT
Krypteia Operations
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:11:00 -
[5954] - Quote
-snip- |

baltec1
Bat Country
8270
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:13:00 -
[5955] - Quote
MARKEETTT ALT wrote:baltec1 wrote:gascanu wrote:if by losing the web bonus you think they can apply dps better...  You do, at range. But if you must have a web then use the vindi, which also happens to have 1902 more base armour HP than the old kronos. 8km webs ain't gona help my 30 km blasters.
Yet that same web will help my 80km optimal railguns...
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:20:00 -
[5956] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate. The reality is that the web bonus was getting nerfed to 7.5%, so are you saying that even at 37.5% you can still live with the change? Because I suspect the answer is still no. Is it just the loss of the stasis web or is it the drone bandwidth as well? Because the other modifications (with one or two minor exceptions) are almost overwhelmingly positive on the latest iteration. And the drones were getting nerfed, regardless.
Fine. Adjust the bonuses as follows (this should make everyone happy):
Paladin: Battleship - 5% capacitor, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 7.5% optimal, 5% damage, 7.5% armor repair Golem: Battleship - 10% missile velocity, 5% explosion velocity; Marauder - 5% rate of fire, 10% TP, 7.5% shield boost Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair Vargur: Battleship - 5% rate of fire, 10% falloff; Marauder - 7.5% tracking, 5% optimal, 7.5% shield boost I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:27:00 -
[5957] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:The Djego wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.
People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required. Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's? They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements. The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.
It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics. It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times. The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before. WH pve, lvl 5 missions... Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's. If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair. Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors? You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec? Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that. The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it. Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it. No one will use these boats in low sec, nor wormholes, nor in high sec when at war, nor in high sec near gankers, nor ANY incursion, nor in NPC null sec, nor outside any non-secure null sec enclave.
I Luvvvvv the way you are speaking for ALLLL Eve players, as you can CLEARLY know what they are thinking and what they will do and not do...
|

Nasro Drags
404 Not Fun DARKNESS.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:43:00 -
[5958] - Quote
Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.
The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.
Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...
Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...
What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:47:00 -
[5959] - Quote
Nasro Drags wrote:Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.
The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.
Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people... Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...
What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it... Since when were Marauders supposed to be "significantly better" than their pirate counterparts? I'd say that from a tanking standpoint the new Golems are far superior. For raw DPS, some of the pirate battleships certainly offer better choices. But then they always did. And that's the whole point: choice. Let's continue to have some variety and not make every ship the same. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8270
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:48:00 -
[5960] - Quote
Nasro Drags wrote:Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.
The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.
Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...
Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...
What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it...
In fact, you had a great idea with the bastion module, but messed up with a decent ship to fit your idea into it. The bastion module should be a new ship. Not a current ship which actually had a role... PVE...
They don't want a pve only combat ship. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8270
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:51:00 -
[5961] - Quote
[quote=Arthur Aihaken] Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
330
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:53:00 -
[5962] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:54:00 -
[5963] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate. The reality is that the web bonus was getting nerfed to 7.5%, so are you saying that even at 37.5% you can still live with the change? Because I suspect the answer is still no. Is it just the loss of the stasis web or is it the drone bandwidth as well? Because the other modifications (with one or two minor exceptions) are almost overwhelmingly positive on the latest iteration. And the drones were getting nerfed, regardless. Fine. Adjust the bonuses as follows (this should make everyone happy): Paladin: Battleship - 5% capacitor, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 7.5% optimal, 5% damage, 7.5% armor repair Golem: Battleship - 10% missile velocity, 5% explosion velocity; Marauder - 5% rate of fire, 10% TP, 7.5% shield boost Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair Vargur: Battleship - 5% rate of fire, 10% falloff; Marauder - 7.5% tracking, 5% optimal, 7.5% shield boost
lol this would make marauder OP and everyone will flock towards it |

Domino Artan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:55:00 -
[5964] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote: I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings.
The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs.
You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.
I run incursions in paladins and although I'm not as enraged as others here about these changes (I never trained Marauder V) they do effectively kill off paladins in incursion fleets. The current method it to warp in with two logistics ships and they provide links and reps. The paladins then web down the ships and kill them.
With the rebalance it's going to take more than 10 seconds to web down some frigates to kill it. Although you could try and pull range to kill them there really is no point because you can move to Navy ships and run the sites faster. That's why after this patch you'll see almost no paladins in incursions. No one is going to just MJDs in incursions .... ever.
I'm sure CCP will monitor how many people actually use these ships after the patch, I would be surprised if the numbers didn't drop. I understand CCP want to move this ship into a more specific role but I'm not sure given the cost of this hull that will happen.
Personally I'll be running incursions in a different ship after the patch and my paladin with sit in a hanger with a dust cover on.
This is the first tiericide that's have a negative impact on my play style, which given the scope of the changes that team has made is pretty impressive - for me at least.
|

I-RON zeus
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:55:00 -
[5965] - Quote
if maruders are going to kit anyway with the MJD why do they then need a heavy tank? make no sense. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1352
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:57:00 -
[5966] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha, since you took offense with my "not radically different" comment, here's a short synopsis of the actual differences:
GÇó Marauders receive partial T2 resists (still superior to any other battleship) GÇó Marauders still receive the same shield boost and armor repair bonuses GÇó Marauders all receive one (1) additional high slot, more power grid, the same or more CPU, a net gain in shields/armor/hull, more capacitor, higher capacitor recharge rate, targeting range and scan resolution GÇó Marauders receive a reduction in mass and signature radius GÇó Paladin gets a 7.5% optimal range and Kronos gets 10% to falloff (maybe Golem gets something)
What are Marauders giving up? GÇó Paladin and Kronos lose the 10% stasis web velocity (which was going to be cut to 7.5% anyway) GÇó Drone bandwidth has been reduced by 50 GÇó Speed and agility have been slightly reduced
The only radical differences (optional) are the new 70% MJD reactivation and Bastion module, but these are both optional. So yes, they're not radically different in that the latest proposed Marauders are better overall. And they're infinitely better with the MJD and Bastion options (emphasis here on "option").
logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

baltec1
Bat Country
8270
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 19:59:00 -
[5967] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries... 
Vindicator rides to the rescue again and gifts you these very things! |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:01:00 -
[5968] - Quote
Sure, they're somewhat forcing us into long range guns, but for the paladin, tachyons do a lot of damage, equal to pulses, at 3 times the range, with a bit less than half the tracking. At the range marauders are fighting, tracking shouldn't be an issue.
My testing so far with lvl4s is that I get full room aggro, tank everything until they're close and get rid of those small targets within range with 0 angular velocity. Once full room aggro, jump 100km away, and start shooting one by one. Ungrouped guns and you can take 4 frigates at a time, or even 4 cruisers at a time. They'll come to you, debastion and align down to the gate. Keep firing and cleaning those at opti with low angular. Jump back down to the gate and rebastion. Keep killing remaining targets.
This method works particularly well, and gives me plenty of time (around 5 Bastion cycles between jumps) to clear everything until repositioning. It only failed on me with Worlds Collide first pocket, misscalculating the position (lots of trigonometry lol). I find it a lot more tactical for long range guns, where to position, when to move, what to shoot, etc. Granted, since there are no wrecks in Sisi I can't test doing all this while salvaging with a mere 48km range (would love 60kms tractors at twice the speed though, but one can dream...faction tractor? medium tractors? large tractors?)
EDIT: I'm using the Vargur, not the Paladin, to test sites. I prefer shield tanks myself. Also, CCP Ytterbium, when are the modifications coming to Sisi? Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1352
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:01:00 -
[5969] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.
its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.
that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line in him limited use for the ship is getting nerfed.
ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...
though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:02:00 -
[5970] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
Purely removing the TP bonus and apply an explosion radius bonus (e.g. 5% /level -> so like an extra rig) would result in reduced damage application for a crusie fitted golem on anything smaller than a battleship/battlecruiser on the move between 20-80km distances. It will basically trade selectable damage type for 15% lower damage fixed em/thermal types. This "tradeoff" is fine I think. For torpedoes it is bad. However switching a TP bonus for 5% radius bonus and 5% velocity penalty decrease only for torpedoes would result in 12% lower damage applied with precision torpedoes compared to a Scorch pulse paladin at the same ranges.
This would not hurt the balance much, as precision topredoes would not outperform the cruise missiles, and would be left behind by Scorch around the same 15% damage. On stationary targets (like a bationed marauder) the rage torpedoes damage would nearly be even to the conflag's (possible compensation is to reduce the radius bonus for topedoes to 4%). And cruises would do less damage on short range.
Yes it is a PvE perspective as i dont do PvP.... Still happy with the current iteration :)
|
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
331
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:03:00 -
[5971] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries...  And I appreciate the clarification (thanks). Nothing I can do about the drones, sorry. Isn't the 'web role' already filled by the Vindicator to some extent? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8271
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:07:00 -
[5972] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:MeBiatch wrote:logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries...  And I appreciate the clarification (thanks). Nothing I can do about the drones, sorry. Isn't the 'web role' already filled by the Vindicator to some extent?
10% velocity bonus per level. |

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
435
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:09:00 -
[5973] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential. that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line in him limited use for the ship is getting nerfed. ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better... though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum
Although it is funny to see him rage about something other than 'Nullsec RMT Cartels want to kill highsec' for a change. Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
331
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:13:00 -
[5974] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum Ah, well - as they say - a 'kid' can dream... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:14:00 -
[5975] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential. that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line in him limited use for the ship is getting nerfed. ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better... though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum Although it is funny to see him rage about something other than 'Nullsec RMT Cartels want to kill highsec' for a change.
Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:14:00 -
[5976] - Quote
So for the module - is High Energy Physics 4 still a requirement or does it look likely? I know there was a comment it might not end up being required? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
331
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:25:00 -
[5977] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec. So the Vindicator can't replace it? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ashlick
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Silent Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:29:00 -
[5978] - Quote
Please, why the maradauder get a sensor strength egal to a T1 cruiser ....  Is there a reason to make these ship so easy to jam ? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
331
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:31:00 -
[5979] - Quote
Ashlick wrote:Please, why the maradauder get a sensor strength egal to a T1 cruiser ....  Is there a reason to make these ship so easy to jam ? Ewar immunity on Marauders with Bastion. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:32:00 -
[5980] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve. I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum.
Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage. |
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:33:00 -
[5981] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate.
So use the vindi which has the web bonus and has more firepower than the old kronos.
OR use the fecking paladin you have trained into and NOT cross train into another ship to just gain a web. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:35:00 -
[5982] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve. I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum. Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage. Hitting further reduces angular velocity when utilizing that range causing it to have a similar effect. If you were fighting in falloff range extension also reduces the damage loss there. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
332
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:36:00 -
[5983] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve. I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum. Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage. Paladin gets a +37% bonus to optimal range and Kronos gets a +50% bonus to falloff, so yeah - that's damage application because you're either going to do damage where the optimal didn't reach before or more as a result of a longer falloff.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hitting further reduces angular velocity when utilizing that range causing it to have a similar effect. If you were fighting in falloff range extension also reduces the damage loss there. There's no point in trying to debate this logically. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1352
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:38:00 -
[5984] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:And I appreciate the clarification (thanks). Nothing I can do about the drones, sorry. Isn't the 'web role' already filled by the Vindicator to some extent?
Jezz you do know rolly eyes indicates sarcasm... right? you guys need to come to Toronto... we are a sarcastic bunch There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
332
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:43:00 -
[5985] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Jezz you do know rolly eyes indicates sarcasm... right? you guys need to come to Toronto... we are a sarcastic bunch Thanks, that's why I live out West.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:46:00 -
[5986] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential. that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use. ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better... though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum
To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it.
Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat.
It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are. |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:50:00 -
[5987] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: I'd prefer a 5% rate-of-fire (since all the other hulls get a damage bonus of some type); a 5% kinetic damage bonus would be fine as well. The 5% explosion radius bonus obsoletes the RNI to some extent, and I'm not sure if a 5% flight time bonus would really be beneficial.
True, redundant hulls are not needed.
For torpedoes raise the explosion velocity with additional 5% to counter the missing painter effectiveness bonus. For cruses the rate of fire bonus 5%
With the marauder skill per level. The two separate systems handles differetly. This way both would be viable.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
332
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:53:00 -
[5988] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:True, redundant hulls are not needed.
For torpedoes raise the explosion velocity with additional 5% to counter the missing painter effectiveness bonus. For cruses the rate of fire bonus 5%
With the marauder skill per level. The two separate systems handles differetly. This way both would be viable. Cruise missiles have such long range, I'm really leaning towards +5% targeting range bonus (this could free up a low or mid slot by not having to use a signal amplifier or sensor booster). With the RHMLs set to appear in Rubicon I really don't see anyone seriously using torpedoes unless they buff them. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:54:00 -
[5989] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec. So the Vindicator can't replace it?
If the Vindicator was a better boat, and more efficient, I would be using it now. It is not, and when the web removal nerf hits it as well, it will also be useless. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1352
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:56:00 -
[5990] - Quote
Octoven wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential. that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use. ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better... though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it. Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat. It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are.
i would be he has minmatar bs at v anyways so any sp he trained still works for the vindi...
word to the wise... EVE is in a contant flux if it stays the same too long it becomes stagnant... change is good... either imbrace it or play some other game... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1353
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 20:57:00 -
[5991] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec. So the Vindicator can't replace it? If the Vindicator was a better boat, and more efficient, I would be using it now. It is not, and when the web removal nerf hits it as well, it will also be useless.
yes 90 to 82.5 is totally useless... why did i not think of that. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
332
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:00:00 -
[5992] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:yes 90 to 82.5 is totally useless... why did i not think of that. Assuming it gets a nerf... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1350
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:03:00 -
[5993] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Octoven wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential. that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use. ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better... though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it. Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat. It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are. i would be he has minmatar bs at v anyways so any sp he trained still works for the vindi... word to the wise... EVE is in a contant flux if it stays the same too long it becomes stagnant... change is good... either imbrace it or play some other game...
My skills are on Eveboard for all to see. I fly all gunnery BS's at V, all gunnery support skills to V.
The reason I don't fly a Vindicator is because it is **** compared to the Paladin in armour incursions, and is **** against Sansha's in missions.
So now I will have to fly an inferior boat, until it is also nerfed, at which point the armour incursion channel will likely fold up, since running L4's at that point will be more profitable, until they get wrecked also.
CCP says it wants to encourage group play, then wrecks one of the primary classes of boats used in group play in PvE. Hypocrites, all of them.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
191
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:05:00 -
[5994] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Octoven wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:So in short, its another vindicator only not as good. Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though. its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential. that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use. ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better... though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it. Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat. It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are. i would be he has minmatar bs at v anyways so any sp he trained still works for the vindi... word to the wise... EVE is in a contant flux if it stays the same too long it becomes stagnant... change is good... either imbrace it or play some other game...
Yes I agree change is good and quite honestly this team has done a fantastic job with past rebalance but this one just takes the prize for absolute ****.
Look at it this way you have a bastion mod that buffs tanking, you have a MJD which could get you up close pretty fast to hit hard, and you USED to have webs...my friend that combination of bonuses absolutely SCREAMS close quarter brawling and you would have to be daft to not see that. Instead they gave optimal range and encourage sniping? Come on, thats like taking a falcon and giving it bonuses for remote repping...its forcing the ship to go two different directions in terms of roles.
To be honest I wouldnt mind some of the bonuses MJD awesome, bastion mode awesome...but add sniping in? Those are NOT standard tactics its an alien concept that has just been tossed about. Tanking and sniping just are crazy roles to combine imo. I would rather see the optimal bonus replaced with tracking and make the bonuses work with each other instead of against each other. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:06:00 -
[5995] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: My skills are on Eveboard for all to see. I fly all gunnery BS's at V, all gunnery support skills to V.
The reason I don't fly a Vindicator is because it is **** compared to the Paladin in armour incursions, and is **** against Sansha's in missions.
So now I will have to fly an inferior boat, until it is also nerfed, at which point the armour incursion channel will likely fold up, since running L4's at that point will be more profitable, until they get wrecked also.
CCP says it wants to encourage group play, then wrecks one of the primary classes of boats used in group play in PvE. Hypocrites, all of them.
"Group play" extends beyond incursions. I probably shouldn't expect you to even consider that, though.
The Marauder class is so spectacularly under-used that I'm surprised you didn't see a massive redesign coming. You say they're wrecking the ship and I say they're only wrecking the ship for your specific niche. They're becoming useful for other things now, too.
With the continuing display of Incursion-bear drama-queening in this thread, I can no longer resist saying:
I for one approve wholeheartedly of CCP nerfing ridiculous Incursion income by indirect means such as The Marauder RebalanceGäó. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:11:00 -
[5996] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:"Group play" extends beyond incursions. Get your head out of your ass, Dinsdale.
I for one approve of CCP nerfing ridiculous Incursion income by indirect means such as The Marauder RebalanceGäó. Last I saw shield fit pirate BS's were considered the optima choice for most so I wouldn't count on this slowing down incursion earnings overall by any significant amount. even switching to the "inferior" vindi won't likely make that much of a difference to armor runners considering how often it's used already. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
536
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:17:00 -
[5997] - Quote
Vendictus Prime wrote:Simple Solution;
When the changes go live, just let the marauder market tank, don't buy them , don't build them and then CCP might take notice of bad design changes. For every marauder you don't buy I'll buy two. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
778
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:20:00 -
[5998] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Vendictus Prime wrote:Simple Solution;
When the changes go live, just let the marauder market tank, don't buy them , don't build them and then CCP might take notice of bad design changes. For every marauder you don't buy I'll buy two. 
Not empty quoting.
|

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:24:00 -
[5999] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:True, redundant hulls are not needed.
For torpedoes raise the explosion velocity with additional 5% to counter the missing painter effectiveness bonus. For cruses the rate of fire bonus 5%
With the marauder skill per level. The two separate systems handles differetly. This way both would be viable. Cruise missiles have such long range, I'm really leaning towards +5% targeting range bonus (this could free up a low or mid slot by not having to use a signal amplifier or sensor booster). With the RHMLs set to appear in Rubicon I really don't see anyone seriously using torpedoes unless they buff them.
Without the TP bonus and any application help you would restrict the golem not to use torps anymore. May even hurt any future chance of that. Not many use it now even less would use it then if the appication will be even worse than already is. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:29:00 -
[6000] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: ... Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?
Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. around the battlefield.
...
I still very much disagree with this. The penalties for being extra tanky are incurred when the ship becomes tanky. There is no need to nerf the mobility. |
|

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
546
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:33:00 -
[6001] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The reason I don't fly a Vindicator is because it is **** compared to the Paladin in armour incursions... Last time I checked, armor incursion fleets had no real advantages compared to shield fleets, no? If it's still so, the point is pretty much moot.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:...and is **** against Sansha's in missions. Rubicon Paladin is going to be better than current TQ Paladin, NM and ofc Vindi in those missions, so I don't see your point here either.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:So now I will have to fly an inferior boat... You don't have to. Pick the best one available. Unless you are relying on ISK faucets too much, market will balance your income out for you.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:...until it is also nerfed, at which point the armour incursion channel will likely fold up, since running L4's at that point will be more profitable, until they get wrecked also. Please, share source of this wonderful info. Unless it's a product of "grrr nullsec" tinfoil hattery. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 21:42:00 -
[6002] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: ... Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?
Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. around the battlefield.
...
I still very much disagree with this. The penalties for being extra tanky are incurred when the ship becomes tanky. There is no need to nerf the mobility.
QFT.
Basically the PVPers support this for a very simple reason - they have no stake in Marauders currently because Marauders on TQ are unusable for PVP. Anything, no matter how ridiculous or niche, that adds to their potential toolbox is a gain. If CCP added a BS that could only mount frigate guns and had no local tank but had remote rep bonuses, and er... 125mb bandwidth but only 50m3 dronebay, the PVPers would say "yay! another new toy!" They are not obligated to take out Marauders for fights, if it doesn't work they'll just toss it aside and say "oh well back to our old toys".
On the other hand, PVE players have invested skill training and ISK into these ships for a specific purpose and they are getting some drawbacks (varying degrees depending on player preference) in exchange for something they may not want. Guess why they're opposing it?
If CCP had just left the hulls the way they were and added on the MJD and Bastion (feel free to retune Bastion however you feel necessary) then everyone would be celebrating. Instead you get a shitstorm of people either asking for sharks with laser beams on their heads or ridiculous feedback like "a rapid light missile launcher golem tears up frigate gangs (because those frigates can't just run away right?)" |

Savira Terrant
Forsaken Identity Unchained.
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 22:10:00 -
[6003] - Quote
How about adding an explosion radius bonus and change the TP strength to optimal bonus?
I think this helps long range fits to apply damage better and would rather bring it in line with application of the other marauders than making it too powerful, while leaving the close-range-high-damage uneffected. (Never manage to onehit frigs with a Golem, something I easily do with my Paladin and even after this it is unlikely Golem can do that, but every salvo less helps get rid of scrams faster!) . |

Reiisha
Evolution
379
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 22:18:00 -
[6004] - Quote
Suddenly thinking that these changes will make the next alliance tournament VERY interesting.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
141
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 22:36:00 -
[6005] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:
[list]
Why removing the web bonuses?
As we realized when internally playtesting iteration 2, web bonuses don't combine that well with hulls using MJDs to move around or increased projection in Bastion. When we gave them web bonuses we had to nerf them from 10% to 7.5% per level not to overstep on ships like the Vindicator, which by itself was a sign that we were trying to take over a role already fulfilled by the Pirate Battleships. Marauders are not supposed to fill the same niche than their Pirate counterpart, which led us to remove those web bonuses and revert back to iteration 1. Trying to hit orbiting NPC frigates at close range with those hulls is not a good idea either, just use your MJD and snipe them before they can come back in range. If you wish to hit close range targets, the Vindicator is much better for that purpose, as it is tailored for Blasters.
The Kronos web bonus pre-dates the Vindicator by 2 years, who's stepping on who's toes again?... just saying.
Tell you what, lets revert the Vindicator back to its MWD cap bonus (what do Minmatar know about blasters anyway?...) while we're at it and watch the forum hilarity ensue.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |

Darkwolf
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 22:43:00 -
[6006] - Quote
Very pleased to see the EHP and drone bay size issues are being fixed. Also very happy to hear some direct statements regarding the intended direction of Marauders in the future.
This is exactly what I want a Marauder for. For incursions, I'll fly a Nightmare or a Vindicator. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:06:00 -
[6007] - Quote
Hmmm Testing my vargur out on sissi now. I will admit to never having used MJD but I'm seeing some very interesting things. So far I only have an inkling of an idea but for small gang warfare/ratting: scan res damps might be something to look at. If you can keep them fropm locking you in the 9 sec it takes for the mjd to spool up at max level...
Actually, an idea that I haven't seen come up: Make the mjd animation invisible to other players on marauder hulls as a role bonus.
If they aren;t actively looking at your ship and when you are coming out of bastion, they wont know to scram you since your mjd wont show as spooling up.
Anyways, just an idea, what do you guys think?
I'll be taking her into actual combat now but the pitiful 6km extra range I get from bastion was rather disappointing. That however has allowed me to drop the targeting comp, get my old range and mount a paint (or sensor damp potentially?)
Actually with the improved tank I can drop a tank module and put the comp back on with a tracking script. Paint +Tracking? |

Nasro Drags
404 Not Fun DARKNESS.
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:14:00 -
[6008] - Quote
CCP should create a new PVP oriented ship.
CCP should leave the current marauders as PVE ships.. Cause they are the "only" PVE ships. There's no other ship with a PVE role. This changes are not adding diversity or choices, they're taking them away. |

Domino Artan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:16:00 -
[6009] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: If they aren;t actively looking at your ship and when you are coming out of bastion, they wont know to scram you since your mjd wont show as spooling up.
Pretty sure if I was fighting a space pinata I'd tackle it straight away knowing it's going to have an MJD. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:18:00 -
[6010] - Quote
Nasro Drags wrote:CCP should create a new PVP oriented ship.
CCP should leave the current marauders as PVE ships.. Cause they are the "only" PVE ships. There's no other ship with a PVE role. This changes are not adding diversity or choices, they're taking them away. If this were even remotely true in any applicable sense you would see far fewer players in pirate BS's for PvE activities. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:20:00 -
[6011] - Quote
Domino Artan wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: If they aren;t actively looking at your ship and when you are coming out of bastion, they wont know to scram you since your mjd wont show as spooling up.
Pretty sure if I was fighting a space pinata I'd tackle it straight away knowing it's going to have an MJD.
True, but in bastion mode you can not scram it. This is to make it a bit harder for ships in the chaos of melee of small gang warfare to 'miss' you.
I also notice that while yes the timer on the bastion module is 60 seconds if you are ratting alone in null and someone pops into local you will almost never have JUST started your bastion timer. You'll at average have around 30sec before you can spool up you MJD/warp out. That's just an interesting observation that people haven't mentioned. |

Domino Artan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:22:00 -
[6012] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: True, but in bastion mode you can not scram it. This is to make it a bit harder for ships in the chaos of melee of small gang warfare to 'miss' you.
Fair point, but I'm going to be spamming that button just in case :) |

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
686
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:23:00 -
[6013] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Suddenly thinking that these changes will make the next alliance tournament VERY interesting.
Obviously bastion module will be banned |

Nasro Drags
404 Not Fun DARKNESS.
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:23:00 -
[6014] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nasro Drags wrote:CCP should create a new PVP oriented ship.
CCP should leave the current marauders as PVE ships.. Cause they are the "only" PVE ships. There's no other ship with a PVE role. This changes are not adding diversity or choices, they're taking them away. If this were even remotely true in any applicable sense you would see far fewer players in pirate BS's for PvE activities.
Exactly, because pirate ships are actually slightly better for general purpose PVE. AND they are far easier to train for. The marauders do need a boost, in PVE. Not make them into something they are not to please almost nobody. I've been in null sec for pretty much as long as i have played. I maybe saw once or twice people roaming in machariels and such.
A bill plus PVP ship is a ship almost no one will use. It doesn't make sense to take a ship away for those who've specialized for it, to please almost nobody. It doesn't make any sense in my opinion. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:32:00 -
[6015] - Quote
Marauders are getting the best of both worlds. Capabilities for tanking and going in-your-face-tank with short range ammo (AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection), or the capabilities of jump away, with 1400s and hit at them, relying on Bastion's extra resistances and a very light tank (1 invul), and the rest into tracking and locking.
As they stand, in Bastion, with 1 shield booster and 1 amp, you can pretty much tank anything, coupled with the long range, you're safe for the most part. The rest can be added as tracking comps, webs, TPs, SeBos, whatnot. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Red Woodson
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:32:00 -
[6016] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.  No, the vindicator is another kronos, only better Or perhaps you are tired of hearing that the original web strength bonus was on the marauders first? BTW, what is it with you and telling people to get vindis? Do the goons control the bpc supply?
Anyway, I haven't had a chance to test these changes, but just theorycrafting some, I think overall i like them. Don't think they'll open up a very big niche in pvp, but maybe more than current. Will be alot better for lvl 4 missions, and will significantly better than pirate/navy boats on some missions with lots of ewar or rats at long ranges, while not significantly worse than pirate/navy ships in most missions. They also should be nice for several nul sec anoms and complexes.
The only real downside i'm seeing is the loss of the web bonus on the paladin, and that only because there doesn't seem to be a good armor replacement for it in incursions. (vindi lacks the damage projection of pala, at least when armor tanked, iirc) If armor fleets were significantly better than shield for incursions, I'd even call it a justified nerf, but they aren't... I can also understand why the incursion runners want their marauder sp back. As far as they are concerned, CCP is changing the role of the only ship that uses that skill. To them, it'd be like ccp making the scimi a hauler, and not refunding logi sp. Whether or not that justifies a sp refund is another matter, but i can understand it. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:48:00 -
[6017] - Quote
I'm getting a difference of anywhere form 10% to 100% increased applied damage on close range Battleships with two tracking comps (Tracking from 0.086 to .132) Switching to range I can increase my range from 63km falloff to 74km. I can mjd right into them and do a lot more damage with the tracking scripts if they are 60km+ away. Yea I'm digging this so much right now. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:50:00 -
[6018] - Quote
I am getting really angry if someone still is saying the vargur becomes better in damage application because of increased fall off.
I fitted my macha and my vargur on sisi:
Macha:
1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS) 540 m/s 4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off
Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS
Vargur:
1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS) 312 m/s 4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)
Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS
And thats without drones.
If the actual 25% bonus would not stack vargur would end up with: 69km*1,25= 86,25 km --> 825,5 Gun DPS WOW 32 DPS more, thats less than a bouncer.
Somehow the advantage of bastion for optimal fighters has no point for vargur. compared to "easy skill" pirate ships they are out maneuvered and out gunned |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 23:56:00 -
[6019] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:I am getting really angry if someone still is saying the vargur becomes better in damage application because of increased fall off.
I fitted my macha and my vargur on sisi:
Macha:
1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS) 540 m/s 4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off
Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS
Vargur:
1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS) 312 m/s 4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)
Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS
And thats without drones.
If the actual 25% bonus would not stack vargur would end up with: 69km*1,25= 86,25 km --> 825,5 Gun DPS WOW 32 DPS more, thats less than a bouncer.
Somehow the advantage of bastion for optimal fighters has no point for vargur. compared to "easy skill" pirate ships they are out maneuvered and out gunned
Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2 TIMES THE DAMAGE (pen hits close to 3 times) I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range.
WTF. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:00:00 -
[6020] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote: my own text Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range. WTF.
Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD?
Try it. it will surprise you
without sarcasm: if the MJD had a 50 OR 100 km option the vargur would out damage the pirate ships. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:00:00 -
[6021] - Quote
Savira Terrant wrote:How about adding an explosion radius bonus and change the TP strength to optimal bonus? Explosion radius is fine for the Golem, but optimal only applies to turrets (not launchers). This is why I suggested a rate-of-fire bonus (benefits long and short-range weapons) and the RNI still has an edge with damage application. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:03:00 -
[6022] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote: my own text Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range. WTF. Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD? Try it. it will surprise you
I Don't mission in serp space (and blits the one serp mission I do get in amar space) BUT if I did I'd just load range scripts. Maybe 3 tracking comps? I should be able to push just past 75km with that right? That's getting into good damage dealing range right there. Also no ewar yey! |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:03:00 -
[6023] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Savira Terrant wrote:How about adding an explosion radius bonus and change the TP strength to optimal bonus? Explosion radius is fine for the Golem, but optimal only applies to turrets (not launchers).
i guess he meant strength to optimal range bonus for the TP itself, not the guns |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:06:00 -
[6024] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote: my own text Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range. WTF. Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD? Try it. it will surprise you I Don't mission in serp space (and blits the one serp mission I do get in amar space) BUT if I did I'd just load range scripts. Maybe 3 tracking comps? I should be able to push just past 75km with that right? That's getting into good damage dealing range right there. Also no ewar yey!
Max fall off is 50% damage. thats why an increase of 10 km has nearly no effect on applied dps. autocannons kill beneath 30 km to stay over the 75% damage barrier |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:06:00 -
[6025] - Quote
Are we taking into account mid level range increasing implants lv4 missioners will have? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:07:00 -
[6026] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:i guess he meant strength to optimal range bonus for the TP itself, not the guns Ah, that makes sense - although I'm not sure how I feel about a 150km+ TP. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:09:00 -
[6027] - Quote
Tragedy wrote:Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks?
What I was thinking actually is either devs gone mad, or they wrote those masses in reverse order mistakenly.
There is no way a ship like Vargur, which has half its hull as shield planes with glasses attached is heavier than a Paladin, which has all of its hull full of armor plates. Did you guys forgot Minmatar philosopy? Faster and agile? Hell, it's a Tempest hull after all.
It's like saying a loaf of bread is heavier than a watermelon O.o |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:09:00 -
[6028] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Are we taking into account mid level range increasing implants lv4 missioners will have?
Oh and the vargur is going to absolutely ROCK in angle space. Can you just imagine, 3 tracking comps with tracking scripts, battleships at optimal?
i have used a clone with 2x +5 damage imps and the 5% falloff imp
OFC you are right, i am flying in angelspace, but you have not only angel missions there. serpentis assault or vengeance will drive you crazy if you stay stationary and your applied damage is crap |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:11:00 -
[6029] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote: my own text Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range. WTF. Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD? Try it. it will surprise you I Don't mission in serp space (and blits the one serp mission I do get in amar space) BUT if I did I'd just load range scripts. Maybe 3 tracking comps? I should be able to push just past 75km with that right? That's getting into good damage dealing range right there. Also no ewar yey! Max fall off is 50% damage. thats why an increase of 10 km has nearly no effect on applied dps. autocannons kill beneath 30 km to stay over the 75% damage barrier And nope: 3 TCII with bastion gives you such a huge malus that nearly nothing is increased
Actually at falloff they do 39% damage. 10 extra kilometer can make a big difference since the ROF is so high. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:13:00 -
[6030] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:There is no way a ship like Vargur, which has half its hull as shield planes with glasses attached is heavier than a Paladin, which has all of its hull full of armor plates. It's all the new armored panels for Bastion to protect the glass, lol. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
142
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:13:00 -
[6031] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:14:00 -
[6032] - Quote
the bonus for marauders should be 25% optimal and 50% falloff, because within the fall off you have the drop of dps. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:15:00 -
[6033] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Shivanthar wrote:There is no way a ship like Vargur, which has half its hull as shield planes with glasses attached is heavier than a Paladin, which has all of its hull full of armor plates. It's all the new armored panels for Bastion to protect the glass, lol.
:D
What you forgot is that they applied these to base masses. Without bastion module! (Correct me if I'm mistaken) |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:23:00 -
[6034] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Serge SC wrote:AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying.
I think for me the biggest thing bastion brings to the table is versatility.
I used to have 0-1 mid slots (2 on the easiest missions) that I could fit tracking comps in. Now I have 2-3 and this allows me to adapt to the mission and continuously keep my damage application maximised. I also don't have to fit a DCU so another gyro fit as well.
A mach does the exact same thing by flying to or away from rats. The vargur at least does the same thing by standing still and changing the stats of its guns (Range and tracking) or MJD to ships to far away.
It's different, it's interactive like the Mach is interactive (but in a different way) and it feels so much more fun for me at least. I feel more mobile than I've ever felt.
After testing this I have to say I am absolutely stoked about this change.
The only thing I can say is that although the moving paneling is pretty cool, think maybe you can ask the art guys to ad some nice glowy lighting like on the kronos somehow?
Pretty please? |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:24:00 -
[6035] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Serge SC wrote:AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying.
LOL...thank you. But I'll take my arty vargur any day over those filthy short range ACs. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:25:00 -
[6036] - Quote
@CCP
Is there any way we could get the range bonuses from Bastion moved to the hulls in the form of a role bonus?
If that is not possible, is it possible for you to eliminate the range bonus in Bastion and boost the hulls separately in other ways, such as buffer and sensor strength, so that we do not have to enter bastion to get maximum offensive capabilities in it; It is after all intended as a defensive mode is it not.
This would allow us to use the MJD mobility the hulls provide freely and make fully mobile warfare in the new proposed Marauders more viable even when being highly reliant on the MJD most of the time.
Bastion would become an 'oh ****' tool and a strategic choice rather than the ship defining rule it currently is presented as.
|

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1077
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:34:00 -
[6037] - Quote
I'd like it much more if Bastion was an all or nothing slider sort of thing, 'FULL POWER TO WEAPONS' or 'FULL POWER TO TANK' that you decide before you turn it on, with either application severely nerfing the other. Two different isotopes maybe for the different applications.
Then you get into neat tradeoffs where a few marauders activate WTF bbq ability and become immediate threats, rather then them turning it on and nobody shooting them for a few minutes and focusing on their gangmates. They could even have the same visual que so you'd have to really guess which way they went, forcing you to waste time shooting overtank while their friends nail you. Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
142
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:38:00 -
[6038] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:I used to have 0-1 mid slots (2 on the easiest missions) that I could fit tracking comps in. Now I have 2-3 and this allows me to adapt to the mission and continuously keep my damage application maximised. I also don't have to fit a DCU so another gyro fit as well. Personally, I use 2 TE+2TC+3Gyro for practically everything except Smash the Supplier. Activating bastion gives < 5 percentage points more falloff, if I remember correctly. But that does not necessarily free up any slots, since I can't switch the bastion bonus to tracking like I can with the comps.
The bastion bonus to optimal range is 5 pct points above a scripted cormack meta 14 tc, yet the falloff bonus is 5 pct points below a scripted t2 tc. And the devs are worried about a pulse/scorch-paladin. Oh my, where does that come from, let's try to spot the problem!
Serge SC wrote:LOL...thank you. But I'll take my arty vargur any day over those filthy short range ACs. My remark was in the context of ACs. Nothing wrong with an Arty fit if one prefers it. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:44:00 -
[6039] - Quote
It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:
Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent) Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)
Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent) Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent) Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)
Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent) Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent) Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)
Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent) Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent) Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:48:00 -
[6040] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:I used to have 0-1 mid slots (2 on the easiest missions) that I could fit tracking comps in. Now I have 2-3 and this allows me to adapt to the mission and continuously keep my damage application maximised. I also don't have to fit a DCU so another gyro fit as well. Personally, I use 2 TE+2TC+3Gyro for practically everything except Smash the Supplier. Activating bastion gives < 5 percentage points more falloff, if I remember correctly. But that does not necessarily free up any slots, since I can't switch the bastion bonus to tracking like I can with the comps. The bastion bonus to optimal range is 5 pct points above a scripted cormack meta 14 tc, yet the falloff bonus is 5 pct points below a scripted t2 tc. And the devs are worried about a pulse/scorch-paladin. Oh my, where does that come from, let's try to spot the problem! Serge SC wrote:LOL...thank you. But I'll take my arty vargur any day over those filthy short range ACs. My remark was in the context of ACs. Nothing wrong with an Arty fit if one prefers it.
I think the prob is you are running 2 TEs. I run 1 TE and 4 faction gyros. This means the bastion takes the place of the range bonus of the 2nd TE but without the tracking bonus (the range bonus is also larger because less stacking penalties before taking the TCs into account) while I now have 3 TCs I can script as needed depending on the situation. More versatility/adaptability is better. It pushes it towards having more tracking because I can kinda dictate range with the MJD.
I have never run guristas extravaganza. How bad is it with range and jamming? I'd like to give the bastion module a proper testing on it but I've never run it before so need to know how bad it is to begin with. I'll prolly be doing this tomorrow night. |
|

Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
192
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:03:00 -
[6041] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:
Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent) Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)
Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent) Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent) Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)
Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent) Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent) Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)
Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent) Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent) Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus.
I disagree, you should have more tank or more DPS shouldnt have both |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:08:00 -
[6042] - Quote
For dps increase
bastion mode is good for artillery cannon vargur torpedo golem paladin kronos
Bastion mode does nothing for auto cannon vargur cruise golem
this is just my observation after flying them all in the test server while doing some l4 missions |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:12:00 -
[6043] - Quote
Octoven wrote:I disagree, you should have more tank or more DPS shouldnt have both The T2 variants all have more tank and more DPS. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:36:00 -
[6044] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:
Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent) Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)
Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent) Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent) Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)
Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent) Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent) Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)
Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent) Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent) Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)
Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus. I disagree, you should have more tank or more DPS shouldnt have both
Its a cobmat ship..without more damage is is worth exaclty as much to the fleet as a t1 ship. SIcne they have LESS firepower than t1 ships, these marauders are useless on most scenarios.
THey are NOT versatile, on the contrary. THey are the most pigeonholed ships ever. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Drunken Bum
421
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:41:00 -
[6045] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec? Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.
The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.
Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.
Are you kidding me? Have you actually flown one of these yet and tried anything or have you just whined on the forums? How are you gonna do anything do an ewar immune ship with a keres? Weve tried to see how well a single inty can handle a marauder right now. Orbiting a vargur at various ranges from 40-1k ab and mwd fits. Vargur is killing the taranis usually with a single volley from each gun. Webs ARENT useless. If you were gonna mission in lowsec, you could easily fit a web scram and neuts on your marauder. Easily. While having enough tank for level 5s. How fast is an interceptor gonna orbit a ship while its webbed and scrammed? Not fast enough to avoid being hit.
You're gonna need a LOT more then two ewar frigates to pin down a marauder now. (P.S. they're immune to damps while bastioned)
If your gang takes longer then 60 seconds to show up, no marauder kill for them. After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary. -á-Fozzie |

Freeism Saurfang
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:44:00 -
[6046] - Quote
So, When you change Paladin's Amarr Battleship bonus?
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed (instead 5% bonus to capacitor capacity) 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
5% capacitor bonus is bit old, isn't it?
it looks like old apocalypse bonus.
PS. As capacitor bonus changes, base capacitor should increase 25%
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
587
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:54:00 -
[6047] - Quote
Drunken Bum wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec? Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.
The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.
Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.
Are you kidding me? Have you actually flown one of these yet and tried anything or have you just whined on the forums? How are you gonna do anything do an ewar immune ship with a keres? Weve tried to see how well a single inty can handle a marauder right now. Orbiting a vargur at various ranges from 40-1k ab and mwd fits. Vargur is killing the taranis usually with a single volley from each gun. Webs ARENT useless. If you were gonna mission in lowsec, you could easily fit a web scram and neuts on your marauder. Easily. While having enough tank for level 5s. How fast is an interceptor gonna orbit a ship while its webbed and scrammed? Not fast enough to avoid being hit. You're gonna need a LOT more then two ewar frigates to pin down a marauder now. (P.S. they're immune to damps while bastioned) If your gang takes longer then 60 seconds to show up, no marauder kill for them.
lol .. go try.. i really want to see peopel tryign to use marauders so much in PVP. we gonna get so many nice kills.
Just a hint.. the number of tornados needed to one shoot a marauder is still same... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
167
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:57:00 -
[6048] - Quote
Dear CCP,
Would you be so kinda as to pleeeease give us a slight buff to tractors on marauders? Like the 125% bonus to range and velocity. Please XD We're long range ships, we need long range tractors :(
Thanks, m3tal |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
335
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 02:00:00 -
[6049] - Quote
This thread has officially become a Gong Show. I think I'll just wait for Rubicon and be "surprised" with any changes.
 I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Drunken Bum
421
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 02:08:00 -
[6050] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Drunken Bum wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec? Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.
The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.
Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.
Are you kidding me? Have you actually flown one of these yet and tried anything or have you just whined on the forums? How are you gonna do anything do an ewar immune ship with a keres? Weve tried to see how well a single inty can handle a marauder right now. Orbiting a vargur at various ranges from 40-1k ab and mwd fits. Vargur is killing the taranis usually with a single volley from each gun. Webs ARENT useless. If you were gonna mission in lowsec, you could easily fit a web scram and neuts on your marauder. Easily. While having enough tank for level 5s. How fast is an interceptor gonna orbit a ship while its webbed and scrammed? Not fast enough to avoid being hit. You're gonna need a LOT more then two ewar frigates to pin down a marauder now. (P.S. they're immune to damps while bastioned) If your gang takes longer then 60 seconds to show up, no marauder kill for them. lol .. go try.. i really want to see peopel tryign to use marauders so much in PVP. we gonna get so many nice kills. Just a hint.. the number of tornados needed to one shoot a marauder is still same... You go take your gang of alpha nados through lowsec to gank a marauder. lol, have fun with that. Also, just a hint, bastion adds to hull resists. Combined wtih a damage control you have 70k+ ehp easily without any additional buffer. Thats more tornados. ALSO, they just increased the overall hp of these ships by a lot. Again. More tornados. After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary. -á-Fozzie |
|

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 02:18:00 -
[6051] - Quote
Wow. Now I know CCP wants marauders to just mjd around....f this.
A LOT of your questions with "answers" are based on a marauder being forced to use the bastion module.
I still do not see a reason to tie any nerfs to the hulls over making them an attribute of a slotted bastion module.
At least we now know CCP wants the ship class role to be mjd + bastion....fml.
T3 Cruisers here I come. |

Roark BleedBlue
Minmatar Institute of Technology
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 02:23:00 -
[6052] - Quote
When in Bastion mode, you don't need logis to Incurse! And You do not need webs either. It's Totally doable. -Erm... But We did tests! You just shift back from bastion, and MJD away from those pesky frigs! -But then...I'll MJD away from...the logis too, right? We'll talk about this later! After you've given up on using Paladins for Incursions! |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
353
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 02:35:00 -
[6053] - Quote
hp bonus yay!
drone bandwidth, my only concern is the rail kronos having crap for dps. that said the blaster version may be far better than I'm giving it credit for, but I have yet to play with it.
tractor beam bonus: yay, maybe you could even make it better nudge nudge, wink wink.
golem tp bonus, is a very nice bonus, it would be a shame if anything happened to it....
web bonus: I don't care much, but still think it says to incursion runners someone needs to bring a vindi or gtfo. I'm not sure that having only 1 bs with a 90% web bonus is a good or bad thing. but hey maybe with the pirate bs rebalance it will be 0 battleships with a 90% web bonus, and people will have to bring a t3 or a command ship with a 60% web and medium weapons  You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 02:53:00 -
[6054] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:hp bonus yay! web bonus: I don't care much, but still think it says to incursion runners someone needs to bring a vindi or gtfo. I'm not sure that having only 1 bs with a 90% web bonus is a good or bad thing. but hey maybe with the pirate bs rebalance it will be 0 battleships with a 90% web bonus, and people will have to bring a t3 or a command ship with a 60% web and medium weapons 
Roark BleedBlue wrote:When in Bastion mode, you don't need logis to Incurse! And You do not need webs either. It's Totally doable. -Erm... But We did tests! You just shift back from bastion, and MJD away from those pesky frigs! -But then...I'll MJD away from...the logis too, right? We'll talk about this later! After you've given up on using Paladins for Incursions!
With the interdiction maneuvers skirmish link nerfed in 1.1, 14KM webs top out at 18KM, 15KM webs at 20.2, so blitz fleets should have long webs in fleet already, ala Bhaal or Loki.
Any Vindi in fleet (if still 90% bonused) should be getting the re-sebos and tracking links so that it can use its mids for 5x webs, same as a Bhaal for armor fleets. Shield fleets get stuck with 2x webs per Vindi or Bhaal, so that's still a nice gimme (and Oneiros 3x links vs 2x links from Scimis) that means armor fleets should still get an edge.
As for Paladins or Kronoses, two with 2x webs each will need to gang up to get a frig locked down enough to kill with a couple volleys. I've tested that on SiSi already on Nation's Commander. With a little bling in the tanking mods Paladins and Kronoses won't need to leave Bastion mode and certainly they should NEVER MJD in a vanguard site... unless it was 10 marauders, 5 which MJD away so that frigs can get popped when they switch aggro from one group to another. Nah.
That'd be slower than having a dedicated webber with 5x webs and two Oneiroses worth of links on it.
I plan on using a Vindi and a Bhaal along with two Paladins. =) |

Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 03:27:00 -
[6055] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
the suggestion of ROF is pretty nice, as someone mentioned, but the explo radius is cool too, but damage one could be used as well... either will be better than TP and golem pilots will appreciate whichever you choose if you change it. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 03:42:00 -
[6056] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Its a cobmat ship..without more damage is is worth exaclty as much to the fleet as a t1 ship. SIcne they have LESS firepower than t1 ships, these marauders are useless on most scenarios.
THey are NOT versatile, on the contrary. THey are the most pigeonholed ships ever.
The next applies to artillery fits.
It's less paper DPS, but better applied DPS. A Machariel loses loads of DPS on falloff and terrible tracking vs a Vargur's superior tracking but lacking raw DPS. Considering the higher resists of a Vargur, especially in Bastion, you gain 2 mids vs the Machariel on tank (talking missions here). To match the same rep/s as a Vargur that's one more item.
So put it this way, Bastion + Invul (preferably a cheap deadspace or CN) for tank and DCU if you want to feel more comfortable. That leaves 5 mids open to put 1 shield booster, 1 boost amplifier and 2 Tracking Comps and the MJD or MWD (depending on mission) vs a Machariel that has to go 2 invuls or mission-specific hardeners, 1 shield booster and 1 amplifier (or only 1 larger booster) plus the prop mod. No space for a TC, or space for only 1.
As for the lows, the Vargur can get away no DCU, with 3-2 or 4-1 gyros-TEs vs the Machariel's 7 lows, that will be DCU, 3-2 or 4-1 gyros-TEs and 1 for an RCU or PDS to compensate for the lack of PG available (particular problem for the 1400 mach).
Drones wise, the Mach wins hands down, but with that new NPC AI, I can't even put my Hobs or Warriors outside without getting near-insta-aggro from the frigates and having to pull the in immediately, so I just tend to ignore drones...
Main differences are play style. The Vargur demands a more fixed position, but that adds to the strategy of where to position yourself to pull enough aggro and be able to hit stuff, or when to reposition to make your guns effective once more. The Machariel on the other hand relies on kitting and constantly moving to survive and manage your triggers.
Overall, I prefer the Vargur, it's cheaper to run for the less amount of guns, it can carry so much more, and I quite like the stationary play and knowing when and where to jump to reposition and keep frigs with 0 angular velocity. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:11:00 -
[6057] - Quote
Not sure where these are going now.
I will re iterate my earlier post.
Alticus C Bear wrote:They will be good at PVE, great in fact every mission runners dream.
They are however bad for PVE as content, here is a ship that breaks all game design possibilities.
Immune to E-war, no range problems can hit NPCs anywhere.
Can travel great distances quickly.
Massive tank makes omni tank easy, no need to even think about NPC damage profiles or tailoring ship fittings.
NPC ships don't scram so you can't even be pointed.
How do you make PVE that is challenging and interesting for these ships? How do you encourage diverse ship use when one ship is so strong?
This is not what PVE needs, it needs balanced communal content. They will not realistically be used for incursions, they will be out competed by proper set up gangs, if you think you have designed a ship that can do incursions in very small numbers you have broken its group gameplay.
You yourself suggest you wish to limit fleet usage although I am unsure why.
They will see usage in anoms maybe C3 wormholes but they mainly seem set up for farming level 4 missions.
Kronos could probably do any mission with bastion, a good repper and a T2 explosive rig. Everything else goes on damage and projection. The bastion range bonus then does very little as it stacks last. It is just an emergency tank button that makes it completely immune to any attempt to create challenging gameplay due to it's tank level and E-war immunity. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8275
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:33:00 -
[6058] - Quote
Dorororo wrote: ridiculous feedback like "a rapid light missile launcher golem tears up frigate gangs (because those frigates can't just run away right?)"
They can but they dont.
See, unlike you I am testing these ships in every way I can, even to the point of fitting light weapons to see what they can do. You and a few like you only want these ships to be doing one thing and one thing alone. Incursions. Right now you are shoehorning an active tanking ship into a passive buffer fleet just to use the webs on the paladin. You use this to try and argue that CCP not fix one of the most underused ships in pvp, ships that are also locked out of vast chunks of space for pve too.
The new look marauders are much better than the old ones in both pvp and pve. If you don't want to change the way you run incursions then go grab the vindicator which offers everything you want and more. |

Madhero
Remnants of the Forgotten Seekers of the Unseen
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:46:00 -
[6059] - Quote
My question is a fine detail on drones. If we deploy drones before entering bastion mode; will the drones still work/fight when we enter bastion mode? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:55:00 -
[6060] - Quote
Madhero wrote:My question is a fine detail on drones. If we deploy drones before entering bastion mode; will the drones still work/fight when we enter bastion mode?
They do, and I have no idea why you'd think they wouldn't. |
|

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:57:00 -
[6061] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: Main differences are play style. The Vargur demands a more fixed position, but that adds to the strategy of where to position yourself to pull enough aggro and be able to hit stuff, or when to reposition to make your guns effective once more. The Machariel on the other hand relies on kitting and constantly moving to survive and manage your triggers.
It also makes Vargur a sitting target practice for any roam to come by if it's farming anomalies. And their strong point were usually ACs, arty fit is quite meh.
As it stands: T2 ships have a specific role and can outshoot their t1 counterparts and mostly even their faction variants.
What do we have with Maradeurs with proposed balance?: We get an outmatched ship with outdated bonuses, without a distinguished role.
What do we have from a player perspective?: Cause of the capital skill tree remade we get a ship unworthy the train time and isk without that much of a necessary role it pvp/pve fleets. You can still get even a cheaper faction BS or a little bit more expensive pirate BS which will both perform better (in most of the cases) in pvp and pve. The bastion mode also makes them pretty much useless in null/low pve, because 60 sec sitting target for that kind of area is not entirely good.
Imo: Maradeurs need to get their outdated bonuses sorted out and to get an overall hull buff first. Getting a role for them is interesting, but it won't sort out anything and still leaves maradeurs very situational and doesn't make them worth the training time/isk. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 05:09:00 -
[6062] - Quote
Tramar wrote: It also makes Vargur a sitting target practice for any roam to come by if it's farming anomalies. And their strong point were usually ACs, arty fit is quite meh.
As it stands: T2 ships have a specific role and can outshoot their t1 counterparts and mostly even their faction variants.
What do we have with Maradeurs with proposed balance?: We get an outmatched ship with outdated bonuses, without a distinguished role.
What do we have from a player perspective?: Cause of the capital skill tree remade we get a ship unworthy the train time and isk without that much of a necessary role it pvp/pve fleets. You can still get even a cheaper faction BS or a little bit more expensive pirate BS which will both perform better (in most of the cases) in pvp and pve. The bastion mode also makes them pretty much useless in null/low pve, because 60 sec sitting target for that kind of area is not entirely good.
Imo: Maradeurs need to get their outdated bonuses sorted out and to get an overall hull buff first. Getting a role for them is interesting, but it won't sort out anything and still leaves maradeurs very situational and doesn't make them worth the training time/isk.
Yeah, main issue is immobility. For high-sec there's no issue, just jump away before getting ganker, Bastion up if they still try, and tank until CONCORD arrives (or warp out like normal people would do if in that situation).
To be quite honest, the Paladin is the most powerful (gun alone) laser DPS, alongside the Nightmare. There it has no issues, nor does with guns draining the cap too quickly.
The Vargur, I'm trying to understand why our matari pride is so underpowered and doesn't really make sense. Tracking bonus is useless for a sniper, but damage and ROF is too much..100% to gun damage, 25% to gun damage AND 25% ROF? Too much. What other way to increase the damage? The low DPS is inherent to artilleries then (BUFF 1400!! zOMGWTFBBQLOLPWETTYPWEASE)
EDIT: Actually, I've always wondered, why do 4x3500mm Capital Artilleries have a faster Rate of Fire than 2x1400mm Battleship Artilleries? C'mon, reduce our RoF to at least match that of quad 3500! Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 05:50:00 -
[6063] - Quote
Again I feel like I need to say something here. Again its because if I don't and you ruin this ship I'll at least have tried. After finishing writing this and reading it I realize itGÇÖs aggressiveGǪ but I don't have time to rewrite it so I apologize. Please try and understand its passion and frustration fueling it.
STOP TRYING TO BREAK STUFF. At this point I am starting to think you guys are breaking these ships because you are suffering from some psychological condition. It seems like you guys just want to "smash the sand castle."
You want to add a new mode, which for me is going to be near to totally useless, do it without breaking the Kronos. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KRONOS!!! Please leave the normal mode alone.
First and for most is the one things I've seen you guys say isn't useful, the web bonus. I use it A LOT. Constantly while running missions. There is no reason for me to go jumping all over the grid. I don't want to. ItGÇÖs a waste of time. Ever mission I run with the Kronos the web is nearly always on. Any assumption that it isn't important or useful is flat out wrong. There is A LOT of people who agree and have said as mush. CCP you need to realize you are the ones who are in error. Get over it and put it back.
Speed. Again there is no justifiable reason to decrease the speed. It allows the ship to get around the large lvl 4 grids in a reasonable amount of time. There is no reason to make traveling around painfully slow. Again, CCP you are in error. Get over it and put it back.
Tanking. Nothing wrong with current numbers. No reason to change it. If it isn't broken don't fix it!
You guys want to reduce mass, add slots, add another bonus for MJD's go for it. I don't care. But if you think you need to destroy an entire class of ships to do so, then I say you need to reevaluate your stance, listen to the payer base in this 300 plus page thread and come correct.
I played this game for nearly 3 years straight. I stopped playing for about a year and half because CCP didn't add anything of game play value for a portion of those years. I realize saying that I'll stop paying is going to be met with shrugs and trolls, but there it is. ItGÇÖs the only leverage any of use really have. Might take another few years or longer, maybe never before I'll return.
TL:DR: If CCP breaks this class of ships because of their false assumptions I'll unsub my 3 accounts. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
340
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 05:59:00 -
[6064] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:TL:DR: If CCP breaks this class of ships because of their false assumptions I'll unsub my 3 accounts. Dibs on your stuff. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8278
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:03:00 -
[6065] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:
You want to add a new mode, which for me is going to be near to totally useless, do it without breaking the Kronos. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KRONOS!!! Please leave the normal mode alone.
Use the Vindicator. Same webs, more damage, more armour hp, more fitting room, faster, can deplpy a full set of sentries, much better sensor strength. It outclasses the old kronos in every way for what you are using it for.
|

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:21:00 -
[6066] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:TL:DR: If CCP breaks this class of ships because of their false assumptions I'll unsub my 3 accounts. Dibs on your stuff.
haha you wish '-)
Something else occurred to me. CCP said something about not needing the web bonus because you'll be able to MJD away and then pick off the targets. My numbers may be in off but here it goes:
Warp to grid enemies 50k-ish away Lock targets small ships take 30-ish seconds MJD away they are now 150k away wait till they are 108k (Kronos Targeting range) Wait 30-ish seconds, frigs are now much closer Pick off frigs, some get closer MJD again they are again out of lock range Retarget frigs pick off frigs ect.
So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed.
Throw in bastion mode and you'll be wasting even more time.
Does this really sound good to anyone...? |

Darkwolf
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:24:00 -
[6067] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed.
Why are you MJD'ing in a straight line away from the gate? Nothing's stopping you prescribing a triangle, square, or whatever other kind of maneuver you want to keep the gate within a one jump range...
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
340
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:35:00 -
[6068] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. And here everyone is complaining about the loss of drones, when they're obviously much squishier. Much ado about nothing. I'll settle for 'some' of your stuff. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:47:00 -
[6069] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed. Why are you MJD'ing in a straight line away from the gate? Nothing's stopping you prescribing a triangle, square, or whatever other kind of maneuver you want to keep the gate within a one jump range...
Agreed, I thought it was gonna be difficult working with MJD in missions. However, after using it, I feel it's actually really simple and very effective..
|

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:59:00 -
[6070] - Quote
Darkwolf wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed. Why are you MJD'ing in a straight line away from the gate? Nothing's stopping you prescribing a triangle, square, or whatever other kind of maneuver you want to keep the gate within a one jump range...
Ah I see your point. I suppose it isn't as bad as I first thought. Before tonight I really hadn't given it much thought. But in the end I still think it would increase the time it takes to clear a mission. I think it would also hamper salvaging as you'd have MJD out of salvage range then come back. I am just trying to understand this new reality that CCP is imposing. |
|

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:05:00 -
[6071] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. And here everyone is complaining about the loss of drones, when they're obviously much squishier. Much ado about nothing. I'll settle for 'some' of your stuff.
To me its more of a hassle than its worth. I still use T2's which I really shouldn't be. When I use drones the ships always target the same one till its dead. For instance when I first launch they all focus fire on one. it takes a little damage I pull them in wait for the ships to agro me again then launch drones. The same drone that was damaged is always retargeted and the rest ignored until its dead. Then they target a new one and the cycle continues.
All I am saying is its not very practical to keep pull them in and launching. Its much easier for me to web the frigs and move towards them slowly and kill them with a single volley from my Kronos. While the weber is slowing them down I simply attack larger ships until I can one shot them. Take away the 90% weber and it become mush harder. I tried the same method when I was flying a Hyperion and mega. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:12:00 -
[6072] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. And here everyone is complaining about the loss of drones, when they're obviously much squishier. Much ado about nothing. I'll settle for 'some' of your stuff. To me its more of a hassle than its worth. I still use T2's which I really shouldn't be. When I use drones the ships always target the same one till its dead. For instance when I first launch they all focus fire on one. it takes a little damage I pull them in wait for the ships to agro me again then launch drones. The same drone that was damaged is always retargeted and the rest ignored until its dead. Then they target a new one and the cycle continues. All I am saying is its not very practical to keep pull them in and launching. Its much easier for me to web the frigs and move towards them slowly and kill them with a single volley from my Kronos. While the weber is slowing them down I simply attack larger ships until I can one shot them. Take away the 90% weber and it become mush harder. I tried the same method when I was flying a Hyperion and mega.
Mega has no problem hitting frigs out to 15km, any left are easily mopped up with the drones. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:13:00 -
[6073] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:TL:DR: If CCP breaks this class of ships because of their false assumptions I'll unsub my 3 accounts. Dibs on your stuff. haha you wish '-) Something else occurred to me. CCP said something about not needing the web bonus because you'll be able to MJD away and then pick off the targets. My numbers may be in off but here it goes: Warp to grid enemies 50k-ish away Lock targets small ships take 30-ish seconds MJD away they are now 150k away wait till they are 108k (Kronos Targeting range) Wait 30-ish seconds, frigs are now much closer Pick off frigs, some get closer MJD again they are again out of lock range Retarget frigs pick off frigs ect. So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed. Throw in bastion mode and you'll be wasting even more time. Does this really sound good to anyone...? Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. This gentleman would like to enquire as to what you are smoking or if you have just not bothered to actually test bastion on the test server. my guess would be the latter as I wouldnt like to assume mind altering substance abuse.
First of, with base sensor changes and a single sebo I'm locking frigs in under 9 seconds. so far in 95% of the time Ive popped eve frig that has auto agressed in any mission and have popped 100% of every frig that hasent. the 5% ive killed with my light drones and not got a single one shot at.
Your example of mjd usage is... not so good.
plainly speaking, you sir are doing it very very wrong. please test on sissi so your future posts are not tainted by ignorance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
340
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:16:00 -
[6074] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:To me its more of a hassle than its worth. I still use T2's which I really shouldn't be. When I use drones the ships always target the same one till its dead. For instance when I first launch they all focus fire on one. it takes a little damage I pull them in wait for the ships to agro me again then launch drones. The same drone that was damaged is always retargeted and the rest ignored until its dead. Then they target a new one and the cycle continues.
All I am saying is its not very practical to keep pull them in and launching. Its much easier for me to web the frigs and move towards them slowly and kill them with a single volley from my Kronos. While the weber is slowing them down I simply attack larger ships until I can one shot them. Take away the 90% weber and it become mush harder. I tried the same method when I was flying a Hyperion and mega. These are not the drones you're looking for... I honestly don't care about the stasis web bonus one way or the other, but I think this whole Marauder fiasco serves as an example of how not to conduct a rebalancing. I previously made the suggestion to just defer this until the next update after Rubicon, and I still think considering how important these ships are that it's probably the best way forward. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:19:00 -
[6075] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. And here everyone is complaining about the loss of drones, when they're obviously much squishier. Much ado about nothing. I'll settle for 'some' of your stuff. To me its more of a hassle than its worth. I still use T2's which I really shouldn't be. When I use drones the ships always target the same one till its dead. For instance when I first launch they all focus fire on one. it takes a little damage I pull them in wait for the ships to agro me again then launch drones. The same drone that was damaged is always retargeted and the rest ignored until its dead. Then they target a new one and the cycle continues. All I am saying is its not very practical to keep pull them in and launching. Its much easier for me to web the frigs and move towards them slowly and kill them with a single volley from my Kronos. While the weber is slowing them down I simply attack larger ships until I can one shot them. Take away the 90% weber and it become mush harder. I tried the same method when I was flying a Hyperion and mega. Mega has no problem hitting frigs out to 15km, any left are easily mopped up with the drones.
Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:27:00 -
[6076] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. And here everyone is complaining about the loss of drones, when they're obviously much squishier. Much ado about nothing. I'll settle for 'some' of your stuff. To me its more of a hassle than its worth. I still use T2's which I really shouldn't be. When I use drones the ships always target the same one till its dead. For instance when I first launch they all focus fire on one. it takes a little damage I pull them in wait for the ships to agro me again then launch drones. The same drone that was damaged is always retargeted and the rest ignored until its dead. Then they target a new one and the cycle continues. All I am saying is its not very practical to keep pull them in and launching. Its much easier for me to web the frigs and move towards them slowly and kill them with a single volley from my Kronos. While the weber is slowing them down I simply attack larger ships until I can one shot them. Take away the 90% weber and it become mush harder. I tried the same method when I was flying a Hyperion and mega. Mega has no problem hitting frigs out to 15km, any left are easily mopped up with the drones. Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do. with bastion you need far less tank than normal. if youve fit 4 tank modules you now only need two at most. this means you fit 2 additional TE or a TE and damage mod. in the mids you replace your web(s) with tracking comps with tracking scrpts.
Again I urge you to test this on sissi so you can see the error of you ways
|

Jade Knight07
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:28:00 -
[6077] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:TL:DR: If CCP breaks this class of ships because of their false assumptions I'll unsub my 3 accounts. Dibs on your stuff. haha you wish '-) Something else occurred to me. CCP said something about not needing the web bonus because you'll be able to MJD away and then pick off the targets. My numbers may be in off but here it goes: Warp to grid enemies 50k-ish away Lock targets small ships take 30-ish seconds MJD away they are now 150k away wait till they are 108k (Kronos Targeting range) Wait 30-ish seconds, frigs are now much closer Pick off frigs, some get closer MJD again they are again out of lock range Retarget frigs pick off frigs ect. So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed. Throw in bastion mode and you'll be wasting even more time. Does this really sound good to anyone...? Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations. This gentleman would like to enquire as to what you are smoking or if you have just not bothered to actually test bastion on the test server. my guess would be the latter as I wouldnt like to assume mind altering substance abuse. First of, with base sensor changes and a single sebo I'm locking frigs in under 9 seconds. so far in 95% of the time Ive popped eve frig that has auto agressed in any mission and have popped 100% of every frig that hasent. the 5% ive killed with my light drones and not got a single one shot at. Your example of mjd usage is... not so good. plainly speaking, you sir are doing it very very wrong. please test on sissi so your future posts are not tainted by ignorance.
I have not tested on Sisi in some time. I didn't realize the sensor changes had that large of an effect on lock times. In missions that have a lot of frigs I find it hard to kill all of them before they start to orbit. having a cycle time of around 5.6 seconds its not possible. I also realize that on sisi you can MJD away to get the rest. I still think that it would increase time to complete the mission. I am just brain storming, I hope I am not offending anyone.
P.s. drugs are bad mmkay |

baltec1
Bat Country
8282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:29:00 -
[6078] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:
Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.
Blasters.
Your rails should still be effective down to 15 to 20k if you burn away from the frigs and force them to follow. |

Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse Cannibal Empire
2532
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:42:00 -
[6079] - Quote
Well...
I guess that stops me using my Kronos for PVP.
I liked it for the simple fact that it was a MEGA on Steroids with utility HighSlots and and the ability to quickly kill small targets thanks to the extre WEB Bones.
Same DPS More Buffer 3 Nuets Web Bonus
I don't PVE but the WEB Loss in PVP makes the ship not worth it to PVP in.
Might as well replace it with the Cheaper MEGA Navy which has 1 nuet and fit two webs on it to take care of those smaller pesky targets.
Sometimes I wonder if CPP just thinks of **** to justify their salaries or if they wake in morning... How can we screw with things today to **** people off.
I have never used a MJD and never will. I just don't see the need for it for it other than for the PVE folks. Jumping around in PVP.. please.. catch a wake up CCP. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:42:00 -
[6080] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:
Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.
Blasters. Your rails should still be effective down to 15 to 20k if you burn away from the frigs and force them to follow. im sure rails and arty will also be effective for their increased dammage application at longer ranges than AC and blasters and will be vable alternatives but they WILL require slightly different tactics. that said I was blown away by what difference just two TC did to my tracking and ability to hit frigs as well as the decrease in locking time with a single sebo (base 166, 266 sebo'd scan res).
from my testing last night Id say my average missipn times will prolly go down once I get used to the bastion timing and proper use of the mjd. jumping into the center of a ball of cruiser/bs had me ripping them a new one in half the time it would have taken me normally. |
|

Jade Knight07
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:45:00 -
[6081] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:
Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.
Blasters. Your rails should still be effective down to 15 to 20k if you burn away from the frigs and force them to follow.
To a point. I didn't want to explain all the tactics I use while running missions but I'll attempt to get most of them in real quick.
I always kill frigs first I try and go for those that might web or scramble me first. Depending on the mission I might burn away like smash the supplier. Where I accept I won't be able to salvage a lot of the wrecks while running the mission. In others I try and stay close enough to the wrecks to tractor and salvage. With the new T2 tractor beams that is within 48k. Because I am attempting to say close to the wrecks I use ammo that puts my optimal around that. IIRC I've been using plutonium(45 optimal) more recently. Before I used Uranium(56 optimal). There are a number of serp missions where there is a massive amount of small ships, mostly frigs, destroyers, and cruisers. These missions I will head in the opposite direction. My goal is to clear and salvage at the same time. This way when I am done popping the ships there usually is only a few wrecks left to be salvage.
When it comes to fitting I don't use a lows for tank, DCUII, LAR, 2 Omni tank mods and 3 damage mods. mids is a MWD, Weber, 2 Cap Rechargers.
With this I don't have to refit for new missions, and its very effective (quick). Its not cap stable but its close. I absolute love this setup and I really don't want it to change. This is why I am against anything that is going to alter how I use it. I spent years training for this ship and spent a lot of time getting the funds together.
|

Sato Page
TACTICAL AGGRESSION SteRoid.
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:47:00 -
[6082] - Quote
Hi CCP I have an idea. How about remove incursion from hisec, this will surely force people to PvP in their Paladins and Kronoses.
|

Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:50:00 -
[6083] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized? We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone? There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
[/list] Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread  .
Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo? I would argue that null is amazingly good as well, and I can't express an opinion on hail or whatever because I'm not a dirty minmatar pilot. Scorch could either use a damage nerf or a projection nerf to keep it in line with null. Food for thought.
Also, it was news to me that MJDs work through NPC scrams and I must admit that makes them a lot more interesting to me. If you buff tractor beam speed/range to keep it in line with the MJD jump range I as a wormhole dweller would actually try these changes out. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:51:00 -
[6084] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:
The Vargur, I'm trying to understand why our matari pride is so underpowered and doesn't really make sense. Tracking bonus is useless for a sniper, but damage and ROF is too much..100% to gun damage, 25% to gun damage AND 25% ROF? Too much. What other way to increase the damage? The low DPS is inherent to artilleries then (BUFF 1400!! zOMGWTFBBQLOLPWETTYPWEASE)
I've seen 1400mm tempests instapop kiting stealth bombers, clearly you're underestimating the sheer badassery a high tracking no damage lost to range 1400mm ship represents to anything larger than space dust.....
there's a reason the vargur has only 1/3rd the PG of a maelstrom upon its initial release...and tracking buffed 1400mm's were it.
@Ytterbium & co.
I'm relieved to see CCP is actually decided on doing their job now, however bastion is still a broken box of fertilizer that doesn't really achieve much of anything that's not already there for the ships to use as they are now on TQ.
honestly believe CCP should stop focusing on making these 'solo battleships' cuz battleships don't solo (they used to, but no longer and never again) - they work in packs or teams, at lowest supported 1 BS with a few(2-3) BC/t3 hulls (granted many good nano pest, machariel and phoon fits that used to do well prior nerfs - but not anymore) slow, low agility ships on hunting roams are dead ships, or best ships that go home empty handed.
so i can't help but sit here and laugh when i read your posts suggesting you're scared at these ships being good in RR fleets, even though it's what marauders are currently good at - it's like they don't wanna see people working as a team in EvE and want us all to become self dependent isolationists that wouldn't understand the concept of a fleet even after it hit us in the face.
marauders are already tanky enough for missions, incursions and anomalies, already have enough capacitor recovery when flown right to not need an ASB EVER, much less a dual fit (sure it still has advantages but it's not the requirement many here are suggesting it is)
what they lack is a good way to roll them into fleets where PvP pilots can actually use them, without needing to undock 4 squadrons of remote booster ships for one marauder hull - damage projection's no good when you're fighting at ranges less than 50 kilometers 9/10 times and at 150 for the rest - these ships already project at those ranges - and more importantly so do the targets they're trying to hunt.
ewar immunity's great and all but i can't move to maintain my own tackle, no battleship really can - so will be required to function in a team anyway if i hope to kill anything, may as well carry another vampire instead to power my shield booster while i nuke the target my interceptors have caught - or better yet a few RR mods and cap xfers.
you need to rethink the system a bit as i have said before, and'll be inclined to keep saying until you've got it done - you've been given good ideas here make use of them.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 07:57:00 -
[6085] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:
With this I don't have to refit for new missions, and its very effective (quick). Its not cap stable but its close. I absolute love this setup and I really don't want it to change. This is why I am against anything that is going to alter how I use it. I spent years training for this ship and spent a lot of time getting the funds together.
Edit: typo's
You can drop that down to just two or three tank mods now though for level 4s. This leaves you with a good number of free slots to get more tracking and damage on this ship. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:12:00 -
[6086] - Quote
Jade Knight07 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:
Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.
Blasters. Your rails should still be effective down to 15 to 20k if you burn away from the frigs and force them to follow. To a point. I didn't want to explain all the tactics I use while running missions but I'll attempt to get most of them in real quick. I always kill frigs first I try and go for those that might web or scramble me first. Depending on the mission I might burn away like smash the supplier. Where I accept I won't be able to salvage a lot of the wrecks while running the mission. In others I try and stay close enough to the wrecks to tractor and salvage. With the new T2 tractor beams that is within 48k. Because I am attempting to say close to the wrecks I use ammo that puts my optimal around that. IIRC I've been using plutonium(45 optimal) more recently. Before I used Uranium(56 optimal). There are a number of serp missions where there is a massive amount of small ships, mostly frigs, destroyers, and cruisers. These missions I will head in the opposite direction. My goal is to clear and salvage at the same time. This way when I am done popping the ships there usually is only a few wrecks left to be salvage. When it comes to fitting I don't use a (lot of: was trying to say I don't waste lows on unnecessary tank) lows for tank, DCUII, LAR, 2 Omni tank mods and 3 damage mods. mids is a MWD, Weber, 2 Cap Rechargers. With this I don't have to refit for new missions, and its very effective (quick). Its not cap stable but its close. I absolute love this setup and I really don't want it to change. This is why I am against anything that is going to alter how I use it. I spent years training for this ship and spent a lot of time getting the funds together. Edit: typo's my testing has shown that a single omni tank mod and the LAR is all you will need, have fun with your two free lows. you can replace the webber with a tracking mod, a cap recharger with a sebo because of how strong your reps are and replace the mwd with a mjd. you might even be able to replace the second cap booster with a TC too. you can switch from tracking scripts to range as needed and even use AM ammo.
adapt and you will do missions so much faster than before. also remember, no more npc ewar, ever! |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:15:00 -
[6087] - Quote
[Vargur, Tech2] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script X-Large Shield Booster II 100MN Afterburner II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] <-- Bastion
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2
---
[Machariel, New Setup 1 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster 100MN Afterburner II Pith A-Type Explosive Deflection Field Pith C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Bouncer II x4 Warrior II x5
While the Vargur becomes a lot more unattractive to gankers it stays weaker in pure DPS output and through bastion it ends up in less applied damage.
old summary of mine:
Quote:Macha:
1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS) 540 m/s 4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off
Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS
Vargur:
1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS) 312 m/s 4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)
Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS
And thats without drones. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:23:00 -
[6088] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:[Vargur, Tech2] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script X-Large Shield Booster II 100MN Afterburner II 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] <-- Bastion Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 --- [Machariel, New Setup 1 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster 100MN Afterburner II Pith A-Type Explosive Deflection Field Pith C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Projectile Burst Aerator I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Bouncer II x4 Warrior II x5 While the Vargur becomes a lot more unattractive to gankers it stays weaker in pure DPS output and through bastion it ends up in less applied damage. old summary of mine: Quote:Macha:
1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS) 540 m/s 4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off
Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS
Vargur:
1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS) 312 m/s 4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)
Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS
And thats without drones. that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:26:00 -
[6089] - Quote
Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:30:00 -
[6090] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship  this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because ir dan loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME!
doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time. |
|

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
989
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:32:00 -
[6091] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Well...
I guess that stops me using my Kronos for PVP.
I liked it for the simple fact that it was a MEGA on Steroids with utility HighSlots and and the ability to quickly kill small targets thanks to the extre WEB Bones.
Same DPS More Buffer 3 Nuets Web Bonus
I don't PVE but the WEB Loss in PVP makes the ship not worth it to PVP in.
Might as well replace it with the Cheaper MEGA Navy which has 1 nuet and fit two webs on it to take care of those smaller pesky targets. However not sure the slot layout will allow that to work so well, I still want that cap booster for incase. If I wanted RAW DPS I will undock my Vindi. But I do like the Utility High for Nuets which the Vindi does not have.
Sometimes I wonder if CPP just thinks of **** to justify their salaries or if they wake in morning... How can we screw with things today to **** people off.
I have never used a MJD and never will. I just don't see the need for it for it other than for the PVE folks. Jumping around in PVP.. please.. catch a wake up CCP.
CCP never should have taken the web bonus approach on Marauders in the first place. Don't like the ship, sell it.
The Tears Must Flow |

Jade Knight07
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:34:00 -
[6092] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:
Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.
Blasters. Your rails should still be effective down to 15 to 20k if you burn away from the frigs and force them to follow. To a point. I didn't want to explain all the tactics I use while running missions but I'll attempt to get most of them in real quick. I always kill frigs first I try and go for those that might web or scramble me first. Depending on the mission I might burn away like smash the supplier. Where I accept I won't be able to salvage a lot of the wrecks while running the mission. In others I try and stay close enough to the wrecks to tractor and salvage. With the new T2 tractor beams that is within 48k. Because I am attempting to say close to the wrecks I use ammo that puts my optimal around that. IIRC I've been using plutonium(45 optimal) more recently. Before I used Uranium(56 optimal). There are a number of serp missions where there is a massive amount of small ships, mostly frigs, destroyers, and cruisers. These missions I will head in the opposite direction. My goal is to clear and salvage at the same time. This way when I am done popping the ships there usually is only a few wrecks left to be salvage. When it comes to fitting I don't use a (lot of: was trying to say I don't waste lows on unnecessary tank) lows for tank, DCUII, LAR, 2 Omni tank mods and 3 damage mods. mids is a MWD, Weber, 2 Cap Rechargers. With this I don't have to refit for new missions, and its very effective (quick). Its not cap stable but its close. I absolute love this setup and I really don't want it to change. This is why I am against anything that is going to alter how I use it. I spent years training for this ship and spent a lot of time getting the funds together. Edit: typo's my testing has shown that a single omni tank mod and the LAR is all you will need, have fun with your two free lows. you can replace the webber with a tracking mod, a cap recharger with a sebo because of how strong your reps are and replace the mwd with a mjd. you might even be able to replace the second cap booster with a TC too. you can switch from tracking scripts to range as needed and even use AM ammo. adapt and you will do missions so much faster than before. also remember, no more npc ewar, ever!
Thanks for the pointers, if they go thru with their plan I'll have to adapt or something. I am just going to be very disappointed. at this point the Kronos has been my single largest SP and isk investment. It is my favorite ship I am still maxing skills related to it and its fit. Some of which I might not need after the change. I am also working towards cap ships and hope when I have the skills they don't ruin them as well. Ironically when I finally got the skills for a dreadnaught, the Moros, they removed the drones which I was looking forward to taking advantage of. At least there I understood and agreed with the changes.
That is it for me tonight thanks everyone for the good conversations. o/ |

marVLs
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:38:00 -
[6093] - Quote
Lina Theist wrote: Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo?
Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races.
Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:45:00 -
[6094] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Lina Theist wrote: Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo?
Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races. Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea.
due to the stacking pemalties it wont really male a big difference but perhaps a change from the current 25/25 split chane it to a 20/30 or even 15/35 (a bit much maybe) optimal/falloff bonus.
alternatively dont make it stacking penalised. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:08:00 -
[6095] - Quote
so when talking about opti falloff changes wheres my buff to missle flight time i want a mjd usable torpedo golem  |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:20:00 -
[6096] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship  this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME! doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time.
What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously.
I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:25:00 -
[6097] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in.
Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again. |

Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
105
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:25:00 -
[6098] - Quote
I think dinsdale deserves an ishukone scorp for his devotion to paladin incursions.
Unfortunately I expect he will be biomassing in a fit of rage.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:31:00 -
[6099] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship  this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME! doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time. What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously. I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps.
Get a pirate battleship because high damage is their job. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:42:00 -
[6100] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nasro Drags wrote:Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.
The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.
Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...
Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...
What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it...
In fact, you had a great idea with the bastion module, but messed up with a decent ship to fit your idea into it. The bastion module should be a new ship. Not a current ship which actually had a role... PVE... They don't want a pve only combat ship.
Since you seem to know more about the game then me (no sarcasm intended) wouldn't having two types of Bastion (or scripts to go into the Bastion Module) allow for more fine grain control when you undock in it? I'm sure you can punch holes into this concept, but in your opinion, could such an idea be balanced? ie, if you had to make the scripts, do you think you could come up with a workable idea? Or do people here think it's a stupid idea? I think I've seen something mentioned before, but I don't remember anyone scream "Kill him with fire!!!" so I'm not sure. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
343
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:42:00 -
[6101] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:I think dinsdale deserves an ishukone scorp for his devotion to paladin incursions. Unfortunately I expect he will be biomassing in a fit of rage. I'm sure he'd appreciate a gesture of one of the crappiest ships in the game. Except they're not handing them out anymore... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Vulfen
Bio Tech.
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:56:00 -
[6102] - Quote
I think with these latest changes CCP have it right;
The Kronos an paladin in buffer pvp fit will be slightly lower on DPS than a Vindi gun DPS wise, ofc the vindi still has larger drones, since you have a MJD theres no point in a MWD so id go with MJD AB combo allowing these ships to keep up some good movement, while in bastion they can field 450k EHP (w/slaves n links) while doing good dps. across a much better range. drop out of bastion and your still good for tank.
Basicly the new marauders will beat any of the Navy faction ships, easily but not quite match the pirate faction ships. but then again when they are reblanced aswell they could end up beating them. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:13:00 -
[6103] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Sure, they're somewhat forcing us into long range guns, but for the paladin, tachyons do a lot of damage, equal to pulses, at 3 times the range, with a bit less than half the tracking. At the range marauders are fighting, tracking shouldn't be an issue.
My testing so far with lvl4s is that I get full room aggro, tank everything until they're close and get rid of those small targets within range with 0 angular velocity. Once full room aggro, jump 100km away, and start shooting one by one. Ungrouped guns and you can take 4 frigates at a time, or even 4 cruisers at a time. They'll come to you, debastion and align down to the gate. Keep firing and cleaning those at opti with low angular. Jump back down to the gate and rebastion. Keep killing remaining targets.
This method works particularly well, and gives me plenty of time (around 5 Bastion cycles between jumps) to clear everything until repositioning. It only failed on me with Worlds Collide first pocket, misscalculating the position (lots of trigonometry lol). I find it a lot more tactical for long range guns, where to position, when to move, what to shoot, etc. Granted, since there are no wrecks in Sisi I can't test doing all this while salvaging with a mere 48km range (would love 60kms tractors at twice the speed though, but one can dream...faction tractor? medium tractors? large tractors?)
EDIT: I'm using the Vargur, not the Paladin, to test sites. I prefer shield tanks myself. Also, CCP Ytterbium, when are the modifications coming to Sisi?
First off, I don't really "play" EVE at the moment. Someone watching me would say that I dabble in it. Badly.
Anyway, I sorta started missioning in a Rattlesnake to generate the isk to lose in really, really stupid ways, and I can carry all the spare bits in a can to exactly tank any mission, so to me, a Marauder is just "another pretty ship I want to test fly" then promptly park, if It seems less fun to fly, and with Bastion, I think the wow factor might wear off pretty fast, considering insurance if I get a bad timed disconnect, or like last night, a storm runs by and I lose internet for 15 agonizing minutes *shudder*.
I'm sure quite a lot of you are swimming in ISK, but when you're not, losing one of these babies is 2-3 PLEX, so won't only the most hardcore mission runners bother with them long term? Seems a bit of stretch that players just starting to decide *right now* about Marauders would actually consider doing so, and not just getting a RNI, or Nightmare etc.
Older players tend to know all the tricks and dangers, and can fly a T1 Indy in a damn L4 and survive, while the newbies think that red ships are space fire trucks cynoing in friendly ships to rep them. Well, the first time anyway. After a close call I parked my CNI for a LONG time and went back to a Raven, its still works fine, it's just not "optimal". I don't feel being Bastioned in one spot hammering stuff is optimal (for my playstyle at least) for much. I can already do that with ZERO ammo cost with drones, and since the AI change, I've only lost a handful of sentries, normally from accidentally clicking in space and flying out of recall range. I don't have any better way to generate ISK, I've tried market/manufacture and ... well, I need missions to fix ISK mistakes :-) what can I say, I'm the metagame meat for better players ...
Dear CCP, I will still fly the suckers (at least the Golem and Kronos, as I built up BS V in those to also max out the Rattler (two birds, one stone thing) but I hope you keep an open mind when it goes live and are willing to still tweak them if they still remain not-as-popular as you think they should be.
PS: Personally, they should be like the Shadow Ships in Babylon 5. In fact I think that's the perfect model for the Golem. Marauder appears, people crap their pants. Not sure what I'd call such an expansion ... Icrapdmypoda could be one, but it's probably too similar sounding to that other expansion. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:47:00 -
[6104] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others.
2. Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time.
3. Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who doesnt got damage bonus. Argument that Golem can choose damage is false since Vargur can do it too and he got that bonus. Not to mention fact that all other marauders deals insta damage, while golem missiles need to fly to target (target which can just warp off).
4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (in favour of 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer   |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:48:00 -
[6105] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship  this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME! doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time. What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously. I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps. this makes no sense, why then fly a ship that is inferior to a mach in the every way if you are not going to use the one thing that makes it better than a mach?
irony calling my comment idiotic hahaha. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
539
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:48:00 -
[6106] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others 2. Secondly, Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time. 3. Not to mention that all Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who dont have it, which is hilarious considering this is the only one marauder thats not dealing insta damage. Missiles must fly to target and this is another big drawback of this ship (but its how missiles works). 4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (infavour of all 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer?
I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:57:00 -
[6107] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Lina Theist wrote: Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo?
Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races. Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea.
The problems lay in scorch and barrage, there is no question about it, CCP knows it, most players suspect it, you know it.
We've even experienced a TE nerf largely because of barrage and I dare say much crying about projectile ships are directly related to it; The reason beams are less popular is because of scorch, there is little reason to fit beams, beams are less versatile and forgiving than pulse with scorch, which invalidates the whole idea of beams to a significant degree, artillery at least has alpha as a defining trait.
We're now close in experiencing a similar effect in the range bonus in bastion being stacking penalized just because of short range weaponry easily hitting at long ranges, the ammo used when CCP decided this? Lets all take a wild guess.
Until the ammo is balanced everything else will keep getting nerfed and moaned about, often without the complaints even recognizing the problem being in the ammunition, instead directing proposed nerfs to hull bonuses and other factors if possible, screaming how 'OP' autocannons are, possibly resulting in nerfing TE's even further.
You and others saying the problem doesn't lay in the ammunition makes it all worse, the longer the ammo remains as is the more erroneous balancing choices will go through the cracks, effectively eliminating all other ammunition as anything viable in the end. The ammunition are used in every balancing situation involving guns, we're not gaining anything good from keeping them as they are currently, let alone from denying the problem to begin with.
|

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:58:00 -
[6108] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote: I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.
U can allways use TP even without bonus, and if they change it to 25% reduction of all missiles sig radius, u wont need to use this module just as other marauders lost his EW in favour of tracking bonuses. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:00:00 -
[6109] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship  this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME! doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time. What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously. I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps. this makes no sense, why then fly a ship that is inferior to a mach in the every way if you are not going to use the one thing that makes it better than a mach? irony calling my comment idiotic hahaha.
Finally you get it. Why fly a vargur if a low skill pirate BS with the same price does everything better?
Now i am trying a 1400 fit on sisi. it is quite acceptable but the 101km lockrange in combination with MJD and the necessary anc rig makes it somehow hard to use full potential. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
1008
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:04:00 -
[6110] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
It can only tractor one wreck? ... What an utter waste of time  +1 |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:06:00 -
[6111] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in. Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again. it doesnt matter what it is, you are trying to fit a vargur as if it was a mach and youre surprised it's not working. thats like eve 101 hahaha! |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:06:00 -
[6112] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others 2. Secondly, Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time. 3. Not to mention that all Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who dont have it, which is hilarious considering this is the only one marauder thats not dealing insta damage. Missiles must fly to target and this is another big drawback of this ship (but its how missiles works). 4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (infavour of all 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer? I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.
Yes, torps apply damage equally on stationary bastioned marauders therefore the ewar immunity does not hurt.
1. TP is needed to apply any decent damage compared to other marauders the same on smaller or even moving targets. TP bonus can be removed but only with consideration of a new bonus to help balaced topredo damage application. However cruise missiles have no issue with this.
2. So you would donate 5-6 low slots for tank on a paladin?
3. Missiles work differently. Torpedoes have more issues too.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
588
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:13:00 -
[6113] - Quote
CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/ "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:17:00 -
[6114] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship  this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME! doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time. What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously. I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps. this makes no sense, why then fly a ship that is inferior to a mach in the every way if you are not going to use the one thing that makes it better than a mach? irony calling my comment idiotic hahaha. Finally you get it. Why fly a vargur if a low skill pirate BS with the same price does everything better? Now i am trying a 1400 fit on sisi. it is quite acceptable but the 101km lockrange in combination with MJD and the necessary anc rig makes it somehow hard to use full potential. so close and yet do far. my point was althouh the vargur doesnt do as much damage as a mach, it can make more isk by salvaging. if you do not use that mechanic then you shouldnt be using a vargur in the first place! and you sure as hek shoulnt be complaining about vargur dps, respectfull as it is.
|

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:18:00 -
[6115] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote: TP bonus can be removed but only with consideration of a new bonus to help balaced topredo damage application. However cruise missiles have no issue with this.
Thats the whole point, to build-in ship bonus into Golem that will replace target painter, so u will have same efficency but without need of wasting additional med slot for non-tanking module.
Maybe its a bit hard to understand if someone is not using Golem, but lets increase sig of all close range turrets and make TP a low slot module. Then change tracking bonuses on turreted marauders to target painting efficency, and u will see amount of rage from players that need to drop EANM or other hardener for Target Painter to make ther ship usefull. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:21:00 -
[6116] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:marVLs wrote:Lina Theist wrote: Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo?
Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races. Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea. The problems lay in scorch and barrage, there is no question about it, CCP knows it, most players suspect it, you know it.
We've even experienced a TE nerf largely because of barrage and I dare say much crying about projectile ships are directly related to it; The reason beams are less popular is because of scorch, there is little reason to fit beams, beams are less versatile and forgiving than pulse with scorch, which invalidates the whole idea of beams to a significant degree, artillery at least has alpha as a defining trait. We're now close in experiencing a similar effect in the range bonus in bastion being stacking penalized just because of short range weaponry easily hitting at long ranges, the ammo used when CCP decided this? Lets all take a wild guess. Until the ammo is balanced everything else will keep getting nerfed and moaned about, often without the complaints even recognizing the problem being in the ammunition, instead directing proposed nerfs to hull bonuses and other factors if possible, screaming how 'OP' autocannons are, possibly resulting in nerfing TE's even further. You and others saying the problem doesn't lay in the ammunition makes it all worse, the longer the ammo remains as is the more erroneous balancing choices will go through the cracks, effectively eliminating all other ammunition as anything viable in the end. The ammunition are used in every balancing situation involving guns, we're not gaining anything good from keeping them as they are currently, let alone from denying the problem to begin with. you know hpw often I use barrage on my vargur?
never. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:23:00 -
[6117] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/
But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:24:00 -
[6118] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote: TP bonus can be removed but only with consideration of a new bonus to help balaced topredo damage application. However cruise missiles have no issue with this.
Thats the whole point, to build-in ship bonus into Golem that will replace target painter, so u will have same efficency but without need of wasting additional med slot for non-tanking module. Maybe its a bit hard to understand if someone is not using Golem, but lets make TP a low slot module and change tracking bonuses on other ships to target painting efficency, and u will see amount of rage from players that need to drop EANM or other hardener for this to make your ship usefull.
I used to fly a 5 module tank. with bastion I only need a 2 module tank. your argument is invalid. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:25:00 -
[6119] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in. Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again. it doesnt matter what it is, you are trying to fit a vargur as if it was a mach and youre surprised it's not working. thats like eve 101 hahaha!
While I was flying vargur that style your account wasn't even created. Please go to TQ and try it. Blitzing lvl4s with a fast vargur gives me more ISK then doing a combination of ratting and salvaging. Also, my loot goes mostly to a new char who earns quite some ISK by salvaging my missions.
Thats the biggest reason i am flying highsec lvl4s. To help newbies getting standing and earning some ISK.
0.0 gives me something between 28-40 mio tics without salvaging. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:27:00 -
[6120] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: I used to fly a 5 module tank. with bastion I only need a 2 module tank. your argument is invalid.
How fast u will gonna make a typical L4 missions that have 2 gates each at 60km from warping point with bastion module ON (which prevents you from moving)?. And why i am asking about L4 missions? Because probably 95% of marauders, at least Golems, are used for PVE.
Bastion module have no point in most PVE situations, since u need to move to another warpgate and shoot in same time, to make it worthwhile. Ability to sit and tank with 2 mods then wasting 10 minutes to get to other warpgate is rather pointless idea and will take alot more time than doing same thing with bastion module off. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:30:00 -
[6121] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Debora Tsung wrote: I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.
U can allways use TP even without bonus, and if they change it to 25% reduction of all missiles sig radius, u wont need to use this module just as other marauders lost his EW in favour of tracking bonuses.
Yeah, but as someone else stated before, that would be quite a bit OP.
Bastion mod frees up up to 3 med slots previously used for tank, 25% bonus to missile explosion radius would free up another 1 - 2 slots (dependig on the setup)...
So you'd basically left with the following mandatory stuff in your mids:
1TP (none if cruise missile), 1 invul mod, 1 SB, 1 Cap booster (optional) 1 MJD
And (in average) 3 - 4 Slots to do with as you like... In a Highsec PVE setup.
Somehow that looks hilariously powerfull.
So I really think, the TP bonus is fine as it is. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:30:00 -
[6122] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in. Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again. ah missed this little todbit. a gist b type large is a whopping 250mill. people are free to try and gank me for the one single module (that may not even drop) I have on my ship worth more than 10mill. I will laugh at them. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:35:00 -
[6123] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote: Yeah, but as someone else stated before, that would be quite a bit OP.
Bastion mod frees up up to 3 med slots previously used for tank, 25% bonus to missile explosion radius would free up another 1 - 2 slots (dependig on the setup)...
Every marauders can use target painters with same efficency as golem since golem torpedoes got higher base torpedo radius than turrets, so if TP would be OP on golem, then it would be OP on any other marauder.
Not to mention fact that missiles have no falloff and stationary ship that uses close range missiles can be killed very easily (just put your orbit at 1km higher than torpedo range, and Golem wont make any damage to u).
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:36:00 -
[6124] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: I used to fly a 5 module tank. with bastion I only need a 2 module tank. your argument is invalid.
How fast u will gonna make a typical L4 missions that have 2 gates each at 60km from warping point with bastion module ON (which prevents you from moving)?. And why i am asking about L4 missions? Because probably 95% of marauders, at least Golems, are used for PVE. Bastion module have no point in most PVE situations, since u need to move to another warpgate and shoot in same time, to make it worthwhile. Ability to sit and tank with 2 mods then wasting 10 minutes to get to other warpgate is rather pointless idea and will take alot more time than doing same thing with bastion module off. pfffft easy. mjd to a mid point 100km away from gate/ starting point. bastion up for 1min, blap all the frigs and some bcs/cruisers, mjd to gate after bastion cycles and commence bs slaughter and salvage.
learn2mjd |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:36:00 -
[6125] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:How fast u will gonna make a typical L4 missions that have 2 gates each at 60km from warping point with bastion module ON (which prevents you from moving)?. And why i am asking about L4 missions? Because probably 95% of marauders, at least Golems, are used for PVE.
Bastion module have no point in most PVE situations, since u need to move to another warpgate and shoot in same time, to make it worthwhile. Ability to sit and tank with 2 mods then wasting 10 minutes to get to other warpgate is rather pointless idea and will take alot more time than doing same thing with bastion module off. Are you aware it takes 1 minute to triangle jump to ANY point within 200km sphere? Make it 2 minutes for the next room since you can be already under cooldown timer. Hint: you can jump between bastion cycles. |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:38:00 -
[6126] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Debora Tsung wrote: I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.
U can allways use TP even without bonus, and if they change it to 25% reduction of all missiles sig radius, u wont need to use this module just as other marauders lost his EW in favour of tracking bonuses. Yeah, but as someone else stated before, that would be quite a bit OP. Bastion mod frees up up to 3 med slots previously used for tank, 25% bonus to missile explosion radius would free up another 1 - 2 slots (dependig on the setup)... So you'd basically left with the following mandatory stuff in your mids: 1TP (none if cruise missile), 1 invul mod, 1 SB, 1 Cap booster (optional) 1 MJD And (in average) 3 - 4 Slots to do with as you like... In a Highsec PVE setup. Somehow that looks hilariously powerfull. So I really think, the TP bonus is fine as it is.
+1 With the current state, you can fit 0-1 or more depending on the setup you wish (cruise or torp). 4 empty slots and it could have the buffer in theory as none from the other three. And that is not the goal here. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:39:00 -
[6127] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: pfffft easy. mjd to a mid point 100km away from gate/ starting point
Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate
Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:40:00 -
[6128] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Debora Tsung wrote: Yeah, but as someone else stated before, that would be quite a bit OP.
Bastion mod frees up up to 3 med slots previously used for tank, 25% bonus to missile explosion radius would free up another 1 - 2 slots (dependig on the setup)...
Every marauders can use target painters with same efficency as golem since golem torpedoes got higher base torpedo radius than turrets, so if TP would be OP on golem, then it would be OP on any other marauder. Not to mention fact that missiles have no falloff and stationary ship that uses close range missiles can be killed very easily. Just put your orbit at 1km higher than torpedo range, and Golem wont make any damage to anyone. Can u avoid damage on any other marauders like that? NO.
what you are missing though is that torps have higher base damage and that means because tps increase sig size by % they are far more eficient for torps than they are for guns.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:43:00 -
[6129] - Quote
the people who wants to remove tp from golem are cruise missile users i promise you. They are not torp user. Since ccp buff the cruise missiles they see no point to use torps so the tp bonus is unneeded. Well we can fix this by buffing torps or nerfing cruise. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
540
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:44:00 -
[6130] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the people who wants to remove tp from golem are cruise missile users i promise you. They are not torp user. Since ccp buff the cruise missiles they see no point to use torps so the tp bonus is unneeded. Well we can fix this by buffing torps or nerfing cruise.
Agreed. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:47:00 -
[6131] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: pfffft easy. mjd to a mid point 100km away from gate/ starting point
Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all. Hahahahahaha!
learn math?
Hahahaha omg I cant breathe!
pythagoras would like to have a word with you, as would your primary school math teacher.
Ive tested this on sissi. it works. your theory crafting means nothing in the face of actual expetience. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:51:00 -
[6132] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in. Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again. it doesnt matter what it is, you are trying to fit a vargur as if it was a mach and youre surprised it's not working. thats like eve 101 hahaha! While I was flying vargur that style your account wasn't even created. Please go to TQ and try it. Blitzing lvl4s with a fast vargur gives me more ISK then doing a combination of ratting and salvaging. Also, my loot goes mostly to a new char who earns quite some ISK by salvaging my missions. Thats the biggest reason i am flying highsec lvl4s. To help newbies getting standing and earning some ISK. 0.0 gives me something between 28-40 mio tics without salvaging.
the point is, you can do it better with a mach, or so people say.
|

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:03:00 -
[6133] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: what you are missing though is that torps have higher base damage and that means because tps increase sig size by % they are far more eficient for torps than they are for guns.
Im not missing it, its just that this doesnt change anything. U can orbit torpedo ship without tank and he wont harm u even with 10000% damage bonus. Same thing if u are fast - u can outrun torpedoes, many ways of dealing with them.
Npcs doesnt do such things thats why Golem is mainly pve ship and things like mjd or bastion module which preventing you from moving to other gate are preety much useless. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:18:00 -
[6134] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: what you are missing though is that torps have higher base damage and that means because tps increase sig size by % they are far more eficient for torps than they are for guns.
Im not missing it, its just that this doesnt change anything. U can orbit torpedo ship without tank 1 meter beyond his optimal and he wont harm u even with 10000% damage bonus. Same thing if u are fast - u can outrun torpedoes, many ways of dealing with them. Npcs doesnt do such things thats why Golem is mainly a hisec pve ship and things like mjd or bastion module which preventing you from moving to other gate are preety much useless here. As of 0.0 pve, roamers will love u for warping your marauder to anom and making yourself stationary. lol do I need to draw you a picture or are you actually unfamiliar with one of the most basic of mathimatical concepts?
let me explain it nice and slowly
1 warp into mission room 2 bastion up and shoot all the ships agressinf you 3 if gate is 40-70 km away mjd away to a point THAT IS A 100KM AWAY FROM THE GATE AND THE STARTING POINT -see pythagoras 4 bastion up and kill some more rats 5 once out of bastion mjd to gate.
a 60km trip going at 300m/s with an AB will take you LONGER than with mjd.
youd have to at around 450m/s and suffer pretty bad transversal to beat a mjd
Learn 2 Math |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:26:00 -
[6135] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/ But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz.
I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1171
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:32:00 -
[6136] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/ But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz. I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.
Looking back over 300+ pages and numerous other threads on this topic, I can safely say the irony is staggering. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Mokusui
Lazy Brothers Inc
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:33:00 -
[6137] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:
CCP Ytterbium and team, thank you for listening to feedback, stepping back to the first iteration, and for rolling back the hull and drone bay nerfs. While I know that some may be very vocal in their distaste for these changes, I am personally excited about the marauder class of ships in their current state. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:40:00 -
[6138] - Quote
@ ccp ytterbium
"Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur."
Are Vargur stats typo ?
Latest changes are good step to make this ships not completely bad w/o bastion mod.speaking from vargur/incursion scenario it is now viable 1400mm(best) platform that have 4 utility high for ultimate support rr role.( vg no bastion)
For HQ sites I think that raw dps and plethora of drones will win out in favor to other ships BUT at least it will not be dead on arrival with nerfed hit points and bastion gimmick.
I truly hope that pirate balancing will take in account these changes so that all of these ships have role in team gameplay and so it doesn't in the end we have same situation of pirate ships that are simply batter for most things while requiring less training time.
having Vindicator / NM / Machariel being only viable ships out of hundreds in this game for many things was never more true and sadder.
Also would be cool if animation could be activated w/o bastion fitted.
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:47:00 -
[6139] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/ But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz. I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.
I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site.
The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:47:00 -
[6140] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jade Knight07 wrote:
You want to add a new mode, which for me is going to be near to totally useless, do it without breaking the Kronos. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KRONOS!!! Please leave the normal mode alone.
Use the Vindicator. Same webs, more damage, more armour hp, more fitting room, faster, can deploy a full set of sentries/heavies, much better sensor strength. It outclasses the old kronos in every way for what you are using it for. Or you can use the new kronos, fit a two or three slot tank, use the extra room for more tracking or damage mods, have your blasters reach out to NPC orbit range and just use your drones to take out the frigates you don't squash as they charge at you.
No, no and a big NO. I understand people helping each other to make them see some other point of view, but there is a big mistake going on here. Not to be offensive against baltec1, but responses like this is too harsh for someone who has been happy so far with his ship. Same applies for me. This is the reason I'm replying.
Anybody can see he trained for marauders for "missioning" right? What does he get right now? - A kronos that he use for missioning on close range, because he likes it that way. - After he finishes his mission, without going back-forward, he uses his beams to get wrecks nearby, then salvages them.
I assume he has trained at least Marauders 4 by now, trained AW# 5 just to get there.
- Going for Vindicator will make him train another month to get what he got right now, - Going for Vindi will make his spendings increase during missioning. (Small degree but it is there compared to a marauder) - He has to train for noctis in order to salvage. - He has to go back-forward to get salvaging ship, which he tried to ignore while training for Marauders. - Recommending him the "modified Kronos" won't help him, since he has been replying here to just tell that he didn't like the new way "he has to play" in order to be effective.
I simply didn't like it, he simply didn't like it. Some people simply didn't like the new role. And some people simply don't get this straight. We did NOT like it.
If I wanted to snipe ships from far away, I would use drone ship, with sentry drones, and there is very little difference on the table between a dominix and a new whatsoever Marauder... It can be seen as simple as giving Dominix this proposed MJD bonus. Nothing else.
CCP reverted hull nerf in order to maintain already-happy-close-range-ppl like us, but it is still not the same as before. All I will get is the same barn with lower speed. Nothing more. The penalty he will get in this case is worse than what Vargur gets, he will loose his web bonus, which is his enjoyment.
Some people don't get this... |
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:53:00 -
[6141] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/ But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz. I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet. I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site. The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?
Congratulations you earned whooping 8/9/10 bill per char easy archived on weekly basis of any incursion player.
You may try team work too it is fun and less of zombie grind. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 12:57:00 -
[6142] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/ But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz. I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet. I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site. The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid? Congratulations you earned whooping 8/9/10 bill per char easy archived on weekly basis of any incursion player. You may try team work too it is fun and less of zombie grind.
Lol. Have you SEEN the wankery that is incursion politics? No thanks. At least I don't have to worry about a gank squad sneaking in a logi and flagging the fleet. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:02:00 -
[6143] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote: Lol. Have you SEEN the wankery that is incursion politics? No thanks. At least I don't have to worry about a gank squad sneaking in a logi and flagging the fleet.
Only reason that farce was even allowed to happen was high sec game mechanics refuse to allow both sides to simply shoot each other in the face when they act up, lack of deterrent causes all kinds of incompetence to flourish. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:23:00 -
[6144] - Quote
I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:28:00 -
[6145] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.
Edit... I'm asking because no one as actually tested this. We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.
Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:29:00 -
[6146] - Quote
its in the bastion module discription. you can not get cap. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:29:00 -
[6147] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.
Edit... I'm asking because no one as actually tested this. We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap. Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do.
have you tried it? Everyone is assuming it won't work, but have you tried it? |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:30:00 -
[6148] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.
Edit... I'm asking because no one as actually tested this. We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.
No, you cannot cap transfer. Have you not been on Sisi testing this disaster? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
907
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:32:00 -
[6149] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote: The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?
Wasting your valuable online time grinding ISK that you don't need? Er, yes? |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:41:00 -
[6150] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.
Edit... I'm asking because no one as actually tested this. We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap. Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do.
Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.
Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.
But I was going to be in that site much longer than that, since my small drones were getting chewed up because the AI was recognizing that the guns were doing **** damage to Tama's, compared to the drones, and attacked my drones. And why were the guns doing such **** damage? Because the unbonused webs could not slow them down enough.
Yeah, Yitterbum's "internal testing" yielded a far different meaning of the word "effective" than my actual tests on Sisi. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:56:00 -
[6151] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.
Edit... I'm asking because no one as actually tested this. We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap. Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do. Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2. Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period. But I was going to be in that site much longer than that, since my small drones were getting chewed up because the AI was recognizing that the guns were doing **** damage to Tama's, compared to the drones, and attacked my drones. And why were the guns doing such **** damage? Because the unbonused webs could not slow them down enough. Yeah, Yitterbum's "internal testing" yielded a far different meaning of the word "effective" than my actual tests on Sisi.
so let me get this straight; you tanked an nco, alone for 7min?
wow these new bastion marauders suck...
lol.
|

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:00:00 -
[6152] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.
Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.
PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when: -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.
As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ. |

Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:08:00 -
[6153] - Quote
Anyone else not want this module and/or mjd to be the new "playstyle" of the marauder class?
Does anyone else feel that CCP is making these changes based on everyone using a bastion module (aka balancing a marauder with a bastion module fitted)?
What is CCP's answer to how the marauder pilots who do not want to use the bastion module are going to benefit from these balance changes?
I understand the increased cpu/power was added (though was a long time coming for these ships) and the increase in shield/armor base values are both buffs.
RANT: Let use remember that even though they took some of the hull nerfs back, it is not a reason to get too excited. I think this is a ploy by CCP. OVER NERF to make people rage. Then, revert some of the changes back to make the pilots feel better about the bastion module + mjd playstyle they are trying to force down marauders throats. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:13:00 -
[6154] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I need someone to try something....
Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?
If so, this is game changing... This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.
Edit... I'm asking because no one as actually tested this. We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap. No, you cannot cap transfer. Have you not been on Sisi testing this disaster?
I have been testing, but I don't have a logi to transfer with me.
I will however say, that my Golem is sheer awesomeness |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1175
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:15:00 -
[6155] - Quote
Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?
I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?
Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:18:00 -
[6156] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.
Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.
PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when: -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat. As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.
Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1175
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:23:00 -
[6157] - Quote
Did you factor in that the Paladin has had a capacitor reduction? Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:32:00 -
[6158] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Did you factor in that the Paladin has had a capacitor reduction?
Reduced from 8000 base to 7500 base. A small nerf at worst. Easy matter to adjust the fit if needed. I'll re-test it when it hits SiSi.
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:33:00 -
[6159] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?
I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?
Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap.
You seem to think I was the only one in that site. I was not. There was another Paladin doing just want you suggested , jumping 100 km away and having the rats ping pong between us. It was a mess.
And clearly you have not been on the test server. You can't buy faction LAR's, let alone deadspace modules.
So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:38:00 -
[6160] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?
I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?
Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap. You seem to think I was the only one in that site. I was not. There was another Paladin doing just want you suggested , jumping 100 km away and having the rats ping pong between us. It was a mess. And clearly you have not been on the test server. You can't buy faction LAR's, let alone deadspace modules. So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about.
Try to keep your Paladins together, 2x webs each and web the frig together. Don't use T2 ammo. Script your TC's. You know, the simple things? I didn't have any problems. |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:38:00 -
[6161] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.
Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.
PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when: -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat. As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ. Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.
On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted. There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.
Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?
Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:39:00 -
[6162] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote: Where is the word "tractor" in that "Salvage only ship"? It should salvage fast, not just cover all dungeon with 96km tractor without even moving. Why industrial command ship Orca have 250% tractor range bonus? Please don't use artificial reasonings to justify strange dev behavior on this matter.
Y ... i guess you are right |

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:49:00 -
[6163] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.
Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.
PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when: -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat. As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ. Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast. On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted. There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective. Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities? Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?
Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help.
Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay? |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:12:00 -
[6164] - Quote
Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin. I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's. With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.
Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.
PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when: -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat. As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ. Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast. On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted. There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective. Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities? Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters? Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help. Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay?
now that's just stupid if you will have dedicated web/r ship(vindi) and logi boats there is no need for marauders ever again if you didn't noticed they are nerfed in terms of total dmg output so if you run webs and logis you will slot NM/machariels to do damaging stuff. Because they do more of it usually extra bonused for it(NM tracking compared to paly cap usage) move faster alight faster and have on top of raw gun dps(mach Vindi compared to varg kronos) they have mored drones too. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Clendestined
Apologetic Tendencies
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:13:00 -
[6165] - Quote
The Djego wrote:[quote=CCP Ytterbium] Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
[/list]
WTB: AoE deployable web module!!! (Hurry up and make it since you're already making an anti-hotdrop module) K! Thanks! |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:20:00 -
[6166] - Quote
Also just for the sake of removing "use dual webs" on a normal hull....
it doesn't work take bhaalgorn for example it have normal webs but ranged to be effective I need every bit of tracking I can possibly fit without compromising my tank and links from scimitars to be able to have normal hits on frigs in sites and even after all that vindi and now dead paly/kronos was better without links even(usually put optimal on blaster boats).
Web was that good,that is not to say I care I fly varg personally but I know where certain ppl coming from complaining that webs are gone. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:24:00 -
[6167] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Daishan Auergni wrote:Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when: -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.
As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.
Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast. On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted. There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective. Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities? Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters? Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help. Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay? now that's just stupid if you will have dedicated web/r ship(vindi) and logi boats there is no need for marauders ever again if you didn't noticed they are nerfed in terms of total dmg output so if you run webs and logis you will slot NM/machariels to do damaging stuff. Because they do more of it usually extra bonused for it(nam tracking compared to play cap usage) move faster alight faster and have on top of raw gun dps(mach Vindi compared to varg kronos) they have mored drones too.
Sure. USE THE BOAT THAT WORKS BEST for your situation. Post Pirate hull balance, that might not be what you hope it will be. The situation is in flux, ships are being adjusted. Adapt. With the 1.1 nerf to the Interdiction Maneuvers warfare link and the slight nerf to warfare links by reducing T3 boosting to worse than command ships, web ranges got the bat. The best non-officer 60% web is the 14KM Fed Navy, which tops at 18KM boosted.
That means webs are already nerfed for current incursion fleets.
Back when Bhaals fell out of favor for higher damage Pallies and Vindis they weren't ever tops for shield fleets, but now they might have a place. Same with Lokis.
With two BS about to lose their 90% webs, webbing will best be done with Vindi / Bhaal / Loki, and hopefully the Vindi will retain its bonus. But who knows?
18 webs in a vanguard site, unbonused? Waaah. That will kill frigs. It's just a matter of adapting to the new meta. Whinging gets you what? Sore fingers and nothing else.
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:24:00 -
[6168] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.
On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted. There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.
Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?
Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?[/quote] Not to tell you how to EVE, but you do know that after the 3rd web, the rest are all wasted? 18 webs for Vanguards seems overkill to be very honest with you, and wasted potential. You'd be better of with several TPs added and just a couple of webbers. Granted, I specialized in HQs long ago, and ran those almost exclusively for a long time.
Vindis are the best to shut down fast moving targets, that's what we shields do nowadays for larger sites. Armor has the advantage of extremely fast lock speed vs the slower shield locking time. Lock fast, web 2 targets down, and let the others shoot at them too. For longer ranges, the Loki is still king, followed by the awesome Bhaalgorn (both of which I tested and flew with TDF for a while).
How many paladins you had in an NCO tanking for 7 minutes? What was the fleet composition? I'm guessing full penalties, no OGB, small fleet, right? Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
279
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:39:00 -
[6169] - Quote
Wonder if anyone yet tried to get a representative isk/hour ratio for running c4/c5-anoms solo. With that new Kronos atleast, c4 appears to be a tad to very easy, as you can just use all those utilityhighs for fancy stuff, and your cargohold knows no limits (for reg. cap booster 800s). Wonder if the paladin would do a lot better in comparison, or even a pimptank varg :D
Also, the spool-up-time of that MJD seems to beat the cloaky prot's decloakdelay + locktime.
Couldn't sufficiently try it cause can't find faction large EM-smarties on SiSi <.< https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1176
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:02:00 -
[6170] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?
I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?
Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap. You seem to think I was the only one in that site. I was not. There was another Paladin doing just want you suggested , jumping 100 km away and having the rats ping pong between us. It was a mess. And clearly you have not been on the test server. You can't buy faction LAR's, let alone deadspace modules. So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about.
I am on the test server, and tags are seeded everywhere at a semi reasonable price.
Simply convert your CONCORD LP to the relevant faction and buy the modules needed.
So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:54:00 -
[6171] - Quote
Question for people that know what they are doing:
If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?
I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:18:00 -
[6172] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Question for people that know what they are doing:
If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?
I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.
Well, you can use MJD to move, but as incursion fleets manage nowadays, an MWD is more efficient. However, you can drop bastion and 4 open highs for 2xRR and 2xCap Xfers, making marauders a desireable ship to low-logi fleets, should they be organised.
Will you do more than lvl 4s? Most likely yes, if you're in a fleet. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:30:00 -
[6173] - Quote
Check in journal what is minimum pilot count for VG I think 3 ppl will net you 0 isk even if you complete a site http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:54:00 -
[6174] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Check in journal what is minimum pilot count for VG I think 3 ppl will net you 0 isk even if you complete a site
In a hi-sec incursion I got ~3 million isk per pilot for two pilots, warping in the command ship booster right before killing the last frig. And like 5 million per pilot with 3 in fleet and on grid. I think.
Full payout (10.3 mill per pilot in hi-sec, 15 mill in low/null sec) happens with 5-10 pilots on grid in a Vanguard site.
Here's some information about that. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/File:Vanguard_rpr.PNG |

Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:00:00 -
[6175] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted. There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.
Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?
Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?
obviously you're doing it wrong if you have 18 webs and no target painters.
learn2minxmax correctly
command ships don't need to mjd
if i was a dev i wouldn't respond to your rage either, but i'm not and i find it rather hilarious how mad you are getting. your favourite toy is being changed and you can't stand it. why haven't you threatened to rage quit yet?
instead all you're doing is yelling at others and telling them they don't know how to play and that your opinion and knowledge is superior, which, it isn't, cause this is a game.
the new marauders will open up more options than they remove. you should embrace that instead of whine that your extremely niche mindset is being set back (but not erased because, *gasp* vindicator)
open your mind buddy, you're stuck in this tiny elite incursion realm that you've created for yourself. did you know there are things to do in EVE other than incursions with an elite 10 paladin 1 onieros fleet?
did you know others still make more ISK than you do no matter how elite you are at incursions? |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:20:00 -
[6176] - Quote
I've been testing these since they released them.
As far as the Golem goes, I'm quite happy.
The only thing I really have to pay attention to is keeping bastion from running another cycle if the room is almost cleared.
Apart from that. Cruise missile buffs made Golem better. Not having to worry about cap or tank due to uber tank is pretty nice.
MJD means I can get around faster than I ever could.
While I feel sorry for those that preferred mobility when missioning, I am quite happy as I'm a tank a spank player. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
588
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:56:00 -
[6177] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Question for people that know what they are doing:
If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?
I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.
Well, you can use MJD to move, but as incursion fleets manage nowadays, an MWD is more efficient. However, you can drop bastion and 4 open highs for 2xRR and 2xCap Xfers, making marauders a desireable ship to low-logi fleets, should they be organised. Will you do more than lvl 4s? Most likely yes, if you're in a fleet.
Proper minmaxed fleets wont have space for marauders. They will be 3 logis and about half half t3 and Vindicators (or other flavor damage ship of the season).
Marauders cannot replace any of those in fleets and tryign will result in less money per hour. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Christyna Ishiyama
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:58:00 -
[6178] - Quote
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 7500(+1875) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
I think that in new version there should be 7,5 cap/s and lowerd +compared to current version :-)
I tried to recount it and it still pretty fine :-) |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:00:00 -
[6179] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I've been testing these since they released them.
As far as the Golem goes, I'm quite happy.
The only thing I really have to pay attention to is keeping bastion from running another cycle if the room is almost cleared.
Apart from that. Cruise missile buffs made Golem better. Not having to worry about cap or tank due to uber tank is pretty nice.
MJD means I can get around faster than I ever could.
While I feel sorry for those that preferred mobility when missioning, I am quite happy as I'm a tank a spank player.
I knew, somewhere inside you were thinking all of us ;) |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
589
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:09:00 -
[6180] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: pfffft easy. mjd to a mid point 100km away from gate/ starting point
Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all. Hahahahahaha! learn math? Hahahaha omg I cant breathe! pythagoras would like to have a word with you, as would your primary school math teacher. Ive tested this on sissi. it works. your theory crafting means nothing in the face of actual expetience.
But doing triangulation would still be slower than traveling those same 60km for example on a vargur with deadspace ABurner. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:31:00 -
[6181] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Serge SC wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Question for people that know what they are doing:
If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?
I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.
Well, you can use MJD to move, but as incursion fleets manage nowadays, an MWD is more efficient. However, you can drop bastion and 4 open highs for 2xRR and 2xCap Xfers, making marauders a desireable ship to low-logi fleets, should they be organised. Will you do more than lvl 4s? Most likely yes, if you're in a fleet. Proper minmaxed fleets wont have space for marauders. They will be 3 logis and about half half t3 and Vindicators (or other flavor damage ship of the season). Marauders cannot replace any of those in fleets and tryign will result in less money per hour. I'm moslty talking about large size fleets (Assaults and up). But you are right. Marauders can't actually replace ships in an incursion fleet, unless you get 10 marauders for VGs with local tanks and know what you're doing and how to FC a different kind of fleet, even then it would be arguable.
My point is that Marauders shouldn't be shunned from the incursion community or fleets in general. Its a different ship now, it fulfills a new role, they aren't out yet, but people have already called them DOA. Either we adapt to the changes (since the BS hulls are getting the rebalance next), or we just perish and give up. The first is harder but you get to learn way more from a game that has hundreds of possibilities, some better, some worse, some fun, some boring, some more effective, some lousy... the second is the easy solution - don't touch the status quo and resist it as much as possible - giving us a rather stagnant game (and to be very honest, EVE doesn't need more stagnation anymore, the pace of the game is slow already, slowing it down would make it terrrible) Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
589
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:43:00 -
[6182] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Serge SC wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Question for people that know what they are doing:
If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?
I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.
Well, you can use MJD to move, but as incursion fleets manage nowadays, an MWD is more efficient. However, you can drop bastion and 4 open highs for 2xRR and 2xCap Xfers, making marauders a desireable ship to low-logi fleets, should they be organised. Will you do more than lvl 4s? Most likely yes, if you're in a fleet. Proper minmaxed fleets wont have space for marauders. They will be 3 logis and about half half t3 and Vindicators (or other flavor damage ship of the season). Marauders cannot replace any of those in fleets and tryign will result in less money per hour. I'm moslty talking about large size fleets (Assaults and up). But you are right. Marauders can't actually replace ships in an incursion fleet, unless you get 10 marauders for VGs with local tanks and know what you're doing and how to FC a different kind of fleet, even then it would be arguable. My point is that Marauders shouldn't be shunned from the incursion community or fleets in general. Its a different ship now, it fulfills a new role, they aren't out yet, but people have already called them DOA. Either we adapt to the changes (since the BS hulls are getting the rebalance next), or we just perish and give up. The first is harder but you get to learn way more from a game that has hundreds of possibilities, some better, some worse, some fun, some boring, some more effective, some lousy... the second is the easy solution - don't touch the status quo and resist it as much as possible - giving us a rather stagnant game (and to be very honest, EVE doesn't need more stagnation anymore, the pace of the game is slow already, slowing it down would make it terrrible)
BS hulls already got the rebalance pass!
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:48:00 -
[6183] - Quote
Kagura Nikon[/quote wrote:
BS hulls already got the rebalance pass!
Not the pirate faction hulls though. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
593
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:42:00 -
[6184] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I've been testing these since they released them.
As far as the Golem goes, I'm quite happy.
The only thing I really have to pay attention to is keeping bastion from running another cycle if the room is almost cleared.
Apart from that. Cruise missile buffs made Golem better. Not having to worry about cap or tank due to uber tank is pretty nice.
MJD means I can get around faster than I ever could.
While I feel sorry for those that preferred mobility when missioning, I am quite happy as I'm a tank a spank player. I knew, somewhere inside you were thinking all of us ;)
I still think CCP should build the hull as a mobile brawler and then give bastion module fitting penalties to kinda nerf it down a little.
That way you can either mobile brawl, or bastion up, but not both with the flick of a module.
I've said that many times..
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:53:00 -
[6185] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I've been testing these since they released them.
As far as the Golem goes, I'm quite happy.
The only thing I really have to pay attention to is keeping bastion from running another cycle if the room is almost cleared.
Apart from that. Cruise missile buffs made Golem better. Not having to worry about cap or tank due to uber tank is pretty nice.
MJD means I can get around faster than I ever could.
While I feel sorry for those that preferred mobility when missioning, I am quite happy as I'm a tank a spank player. I knew, somewhere inside you were thinking all of us ;)
Sigh I just don't get it. Ytterbium said the mobility nerf was to penalize the ship for being tanky... but it doesn't become any tankier until activating bastion... at which point, it stops overrides all mobility nerfs by becoming immobile.
Just to summarize: mobility was nerfed to compensate for additional tank gained only while the ship isn't able to move???
Pls revert these mobility nerfs. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:19:00 -
[6186] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Sigh I just don't get it. Ytterbium said the mobility nerf was to penalize the ship for being tanky... but it doesn't become any tankier until activating bastion... at which point, it stops overrides all mobility nerfs by becoming immobile.
Just to summarize: mobility was nerfed to compensate for additional tank gained only while the ship isn't able to move???
Pls revert these mobility nerfs.
True, especially the strange mass increase of the vargur which negates the +5 m/s speed by far. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:35:00 -
[6187] - Quote
While re-balancing, devs might skip the bigger picture, as many games felt into this error many times in the past. The more numbers they play with, the more the whole picture fades away. I thought addition of the mass to hulls was a mistake (in reverse order) at first, but when I realize that they really added those to "balance" numbers, this made me sure of that they're missing the whole picture again.
Consider this game's faction philosopies and their common construction practices as deities.
The more science you try to put into the mechanics, the less scientists left with belief to these deities, abandoning them, leaving whole idea to perish in the way of numbers of *balancing mechanics*.
This is why this thread is 300+ pages long. To exaragate this and add some trolling, devs might end up putting laser bonus on the Vargur, in order to balance (*caugh* normalize *caugh*) faction differences some time in the future :P
I'm trolling a lot now, but I've seen this happening in different games, not one time, not twice, ... I hope people get what I mean.
Edit: I hope this trolling will end up with one dev reading into these lines and get some sort of early sign of warning. You guys running into wrong direction, with, unfortunately, right toolbox in your hands.
This bastion mod should be doubled, with another one giving more mobility bonuses. If not, since ccp philosopy is to create two different sides of same thing, you should boost mobility of normal Vargur, as much as you boost tanking on bastion mode. MJD is a way to go, but it will prevent some people from enjoying this game. A LOT. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:36:00 -
[6188] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Sigh I just don't get it. Ytterbium said the mobility nerf was to penalize the ship for being tanky... but it doesn't become any tankier until activating bastion... at which point, it stops overrides all mobility nerfs by becoming immobile.
Just to summarize: mobility was nerfed to compensate for additional tank gained only while the ship isn't able to move???
Pls revert these mobility nerfs. True, especially the strange mass increase of the vargur which negates the +5 m/s speed by far.
Confirming I don't get this part,was hoping it was typo...don't make a abbadon from skinny vargur plz...make / sense / doesn't <= guess the order. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Sturmwolke
461
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:25:00 -
[6189] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: Not to tell you how to EVE, but you do know that after the 3rd web, the rest are all wasted? 18 webs for Vanguards seems overkill to be very honest with you, and wasted potential. You'd be better of with several TPs added and just a couple of webbers. Granted, I specialized in HQs long ago, and ran those almost exclusively for a long time.
In an ideal world where every pilot does what they're supposed, yes, some of the webs are wasted (in VGs). In practical terms however, for a long grind fleet, the human factor has a little more weight. You'll often notice when half the fleet is sleeping when only 1-2 frigates slows down. With painters, this will only get worse.
Now, a fully active Paladin fleet can pop frigates so fast that painters become very painful (due to their 10s cycle). This itself is a form of waste. If the 5s painter cycle changes goes through in Rubicon, then it's use will certainly be re-evaluated.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
594
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:33:00 -
[6190] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:Serge SC wrote: Not to tell you how to EVE, but you do know that after the 3rd web, the rest are all wasted? 18 webs for Vanguards seems overkill to be very honest with you, and wasted potential. You'd be better of with several TPs added and just a couple of webbers. Granted, I specialized in HQs long ago, and ran those almost exclusively for a long time.
In an ideal world where every pilot does what they're supposed, yes, some of the webs are wasted (in VGs). In practical terms however, for a long grind fleet, the human factor has a little more weight. You'll often notice when half the fleet is sleeping when only 1-2 frigates slows down. With painters, this will only get worse. Now, a fully active Paladin fleet can pop frigates so fast that painters become very painful (due to their 10s cycle). This itself is a form of waste. If the 5s painter cycle changes goes through in Rubicon, then it's use will certainly be re-evaluated.
5s TPs are currently on test server and are probably going through.
Apart from that, 18 webs is more than enough even without bonuses |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:36:00 -
[6191] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: pfffft easy. mjd to a mid point 100km away from gate/ starting point
Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all. Hahahahahaha! learn math? Hahahaha omg I cant breathe! pythagoras would like to have a word with you, as would your primary school math teacher. Ive tested this on sissi. it works. your theory crafting means nothing in the face of actual expetience. But doing triangulation would still be slower than traveling those same 60km for example on a vargur with deadspace ABurner. Did you miss the post where I said it actually wouldn't?
Unless that is you are going faster than 700m/s you're not going to be faster than a MJD. if you are going around 700m/s it will take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME as doing a triangulation.
9sec to spool up the MJD, 1min of bastion, another 9 sec to spool up. that's 88sec. 60km going at 700m/s will take you 85.7sec
lawl |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:51:00 -
[6192] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Serge SC wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Question for people that know what they are doing:
If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?
I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.
Well, you can use MJD to move, but as incursion fleets manage nowadays, an MWD is more efficient. However, you can drop bastion and 4 open highs for 2xRR and 2xCap Xfers, making marauders a desireable ship to low-logi fleets, should they be organised. Will you do more than lvl 4s? Most likely yes, if you're in a fleet. Proper minmaxed fleets wont have space for marauders. They will be 3 logis and about half half t3 and Vindicators (or other flavor damage ship of the season). Marauders cannot replace any of those in fleets and tryign will result in less money per hour. I'm moslty talking about large size fleets (Assaults and up). But you are right. Marauders can't actually replace ships in an incursion fleet, unless you get 10 marauders for VGs with local tanks and know what you're doing and how to FC a different kind of fleet, even then it would be arguable. My point is that Marauders shouldn't be shunned from the incursion community or fleets in general. Its a different ship now, it fulfills a new role, they aren't out yet, but people have already called them DOA. Either we adapt to the changes (since the BS hulls are getting the rebalance next), or we just perish and give up. The first is harder but you get to learn way more from a game that has hundreds of possibilities, some better, some worse, some fun, some boring, some more effective, some lousy... the second is the easy solution - don't touch the status quo and resist it as much as possible - giving us a rather stagnant game (and to be very honest, EVE doesn't need more stagnation anymore, the pace of the game is slow already, slowing it down would make it terrrible)
Shrug...others in my group have also tested the new and improved Marauders on Sisi, and have agreeed that you simply can't "adapt" the Marauder to a "new role".
Incursions are highly competitive, and only the best ships/best doctrine survives the crucible of winning/losing sites and ISK / hour. The Marauder was a highly effective ship because of its ability to RR in case of accidental logi drops, because of the web bonus, its use of less ammo, and of course, because of its large DPS (that is effective DPS).
Well, the web bonus is removed, the DPS from the drones is hugely nerfed ( my group used Gardes and Curators to superb effect), and that makes the ship less attractive than faction BS's now when not in Bastion mode, and complete laughing stock when in bastion mode.
So yeah, the Marauder will go extinct in these VG's , no doubt. It may still have a place as a sniper in HQ's, but when you want to talk about a niche role, that is sure one.
The fanbois can come on to the forums and say it isn't so, Marauders are better, with new tactics, but it is simply a lie. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:53:00 -
[6193] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Did you miss the post where I said it actually wouldn't?
Unless that is you are going faster than 700m/s you're not going to be faster than a MJD. if you are going around 700m/s it will take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME as doing a triangulation.
9sec to spool up the MJD, 1min of bastion, another 9 sec to spool up. that's 88sec. 60km going at 700m/s will take you 85.7sec
lawl
It is ~82 seconds for a gate @60km. Because, with other ab/mwd or slowboating, you only need to go distance minus 2,5 km in order to activate the gate.
- You HAVE TO complete triangulation cycle for mjd in order to get your target, which is 88 seconds fixed at this example, even for a gate that is 20km away (considering perfect triangulation every time). - In a chance of miss triangulation (which will be pretty common), you HAVE TO slowboat to the gate. - Missions perspective, there are very rare 60km-away Gates from entry, most of them are located 10 - 40km in missions.
To summerize, anything closer than 61,6 km from you, will be faster with AB (with 700m/s on this example). |

Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:05:00 -
[6194] - Quote
I would drop the MJD and/or the tractor bonus for an addional damage bonus while sieged (yes I do consider the implimentation = to siege)
Also, the marauder is pretty damn vulnerable to frigates, a dedicated mid to a capacitor booster (which you have a limited supply of), and the fact you are stationary means you will spend most of your time acting like a BS sized dread without the damage bonus. Yes the range bonus is nice and it translates into better damage application, but it doesn't mean "more damage", it means "better range".
More range is always useful if the enemy isn't in your face or in his face. At which point this becomes a better sniper ship because you need to be more than 100km out if you want to avoid the alpha strike.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
589
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:24:00 -
[6195] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: pfffft easy. mjd to a mid point 100km away from gate/ starting point
Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all. Hahahahahaha! learn math? Hahahaha omg I cant breathe! pythagoras would like to have a word with you, as would your primary school math teacher. Ive tested this on sissi. it works. your theory crafting means nothing in the face of actual expetience. But doing triangulation would still be slower than traveling those same 60km for example on a vargur with deadspace ABurner. Did you miss the post where I said it actually wouldn't? Unless that is you are going faster than 700m/s you're not going to be faster than a MJD. if you are going around 700m/s it will take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME as doing a triangulation. 9sec to spool up the MJD, 1min of bastion, another 9 sec to spool up. that's 88sec. 60km going at 700m/s will take you 85.7sec lawl
You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:37:00 -
[6196] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Did you miss the post where I said it actually wouldn't?
Unless that is you are going faster than 700m/s you're not going to be faster than a MJD. if you are going around 700m/s it will take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME as doing a triangulation.
9sec to spool up the MJD, 1min of bastion, another 9 sec to spool up. that's 88sec. 60km going at 700m/s will take you 85.7sec
lawl
It is ~82 seconds for a gate @60km. Because, with ab/mwd or slowboating, you only need to go distance minus 2,5 km in order to activate the gate. - You HAVE TO complete triangulation cycle for mjd in order to get your target, which is 88 seconds fixed at this example, even for a gate that is 20km away (considering perfect triangulation every time). - In a chance of miss triangulation (which will be pretty common), you HAVE TO slowboat to the gate. - Missions perspective, there are very rare 60km-away Gates from entry, most of them are located 10 - 40km in missions. To summerize, anything closer than 61,6 km from you, will be faster with AB (with 700m/s on this example). wait, you go 700m/s with an AB in a Vargur?
Wat?
With lv5 skills and a Gist X-type 100mn AB you go 479m/s so stop talking out your rear orifice.
Also, for the minute I'm bastioned I have pretty decent accurate guns since I'm standing still and not going 700m/s so popping frigs etc.
Thats also not taking into account the misisons where the gates are FARTHER than 50km away, like 100km+ I'll be on the gate in 9sec. good luck catching up in those. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:47:00 -
[6197] - Quote
I really wish Bastion was an offensive module. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:48:00 -
[6198] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I really wish Bastion was an offensive module. I use it as one, don't know what everyone else's hang up is. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:56:00 -
[6199] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I really wish Bastion was an offensive module. I use it as one, don't know what everyone else's hang up is. Really? How much additional DPS are you getting out of yours... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
782
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:01:00 -
[6200] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:I really wish Bastion was an offensive module. I use it as one, don't know what everyone else's hang up is. Really? How much additional DPS are you getting out of yours...
What Anize means is that the Bastion's boost to defense is being used with short-range weapons to enable a more aggressive fitting and tactic that would otherwise not work. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:07:00 -
[6201] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:What Anize means is that the Bastion's boost to defense is being used with short-range weapons to enable a more aggressive fitting and tactic that would otherwise not work. Yes, I know what he means - but Bastion is a defensive module. If instead of boosting resistances Bastion absorbed all heat while activated, you'd have a nice bump to actual DPS. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:26:00 -
[6202] - Quote
I kill stuff twice as fast as I normally do.
Can't give half a rats rear about dps on paper, I care only for results. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:34:00 -
[6203] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:I kill stuff twice as fast as I normally do. Can't give half a rats rear about dps on paper, I care only for results. Actual performance is going to vary widely depending on Marauder and application. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:38:00 -
[6204] - Quote
I'm iwth Anize on this one. I did several missions today, having faced guristas on a vargur was painful, easily 1h in Dread Pirate Scarlet because I spend a great portion of time jammed...and when those awful TDs hit from Sansha it's a pain to hit anything that's not in-your-face-range (for 800 vargur).
Having that ewar immunity and being so far out, makes you distance tank a lot, add to that I require only 1 invul and bastion to actually tank, I can fit TCs and Sebos. I'm actually applying damage better (tested with 1400s). I would test the same 1400 varg on TQ, but I refuse to add that many PG mods to a ship...none of my fits ever require a PG mod, if it doesn't fir with an EG-606, then the fit requires some thinking (=.
My point is that granted, my paper DPS is terrible capping at 1200 DPS, but I'll take 1200 DPS at 0.1 tracking (for autocannons with 1 TC+1TE) over 1500DPS at half the tracking...in short, in your face blapping brawler for missions will work wonderfully, especially with the lock range, and getting full room aggro, tank all, kill all, reposition, and repeat. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Bob Niac
Aliastra Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:07:00 -
[6205] - Quote
Hmm.. Time for a new thread? Over 3000 pages and still rolling strong. I <3 Logistics: Pilot of all -áT2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use. |

Teegra Frost
Engineering Evolutions Limited Gatekeepers Universe
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:18:00 -
[6206] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium and team,
On the Paladin could the 5% bonus to capacitor capacity be replaced with a large laser turret tracking per level?
It would work and feel better with the role of Marauders being able to project damage better.
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
784
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:08:00 -
[6207] - Quote
Teegra Frost wrote:CCP Ytterbium and team,
On the Paladin could the 5% bonus to capacitor capacity be replaced with a large laser turret tracking per level?
It would work and feel better with the role of Marauders being able to project damage better.
Either un-nerf the cap or roll the 5% cap bonus into hull stats and then do that. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:31:00 -
[6208] - Quote
Even rate of fire on the Paladin could do!
Heck, I'll even take a bonus to NOS/Neut and 25% extra cap built into the hull... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Arcosian
Arco's Advanced Industries
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:09:00 -
[6209] - Quote
Well after looking at the recent update to EFT and putting together a few fits typical of what I usually run I really don't think bastion is going to do much in terms of making PVE content any easier/more fun since it is a defensive module and not an offensive one. I also don't think marauders will be used in PVP very much due to the limited role bastion puts them in.
CCP seems to have "listened" to the community about marauders not really having a role in PVP as they were originally a PVE ship so they designed a specific mod to "fix" everything that is wrong with them PVP wise. Now being a older player and having used all 4 of them in addition to what I have read on the forums for the last 5 years, marauders aren't used in PVP for the following reasons:
1. Poor sensor strength so they are easily jammed 2. Very expensive (cost the same as a carrier with poor insurance) 3. Slow (heavy/fitting issues with MWD)
So instead of doing a complete redesign and actually making marauders useful in PVP, much like their T2 counterparts, CCP has pigeon holed them them into the role of long range sniper that jumps around the battle field using MJD. While I think this idea seems kind of cool "having a hard hitting hard tanking auxiliary fleet that constantly jumps out of harms way" I don't think it's going to be used much. Bastion gives marauders EWar immunity, gives them insane tanks and CCP increased their fittings to allow marauders to use MJDs but unless alliances will reimburse the ships I don't see why someone would want a fleet of marauders instead of a fleet of carriers that can tank the same amount, do the same DPS, can be insured and immediately jump out of system when the battle is over all while having much less SP requirements.
Now from a PVE point of view the only missions I could see myself using bastion would be in L4 Blockade and The Assault; mainly because those missions have very heavy ewar making them a pain to do. Marauders don't need more tank for missions nor do they really need more range because by the time you fit tracking and range mods to your ship you can already shoot just about everything quite easily. Also most missions have gates so I don't see why I would want to stay put for 60 seconds at a time for bastion when I could be burning to the next gate.
Now I know a lot of people have been saying bastion will allow one to fit more damage mods but from what I've read on the test server forums if you DC while in bastion your ship won't warp until the cycle ends. This seems really dangerous to me because if one mostly relies on bastion for their tank and DCs then comes out of bastion while DCed and all resists to drop 30% on their gank fit marauder this could possibly result in the loss of a bil+ isk ship.
To me it seems like bastion is just going to be another MJD mod that nobody uses. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8296
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 07:47:00 -
[6210] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:
To me it seems like bastion is just going to be another MJD mod that nobody uses.
Our fleets use them.
The reason why nobody ever used marauders is because there was a better BS for every job it could do with none of the drawbacks it suffered. With these changes I now have a reason to use even the golem. |
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
96
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:40:00 -
[6211] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.
havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode?
...if so that would be sad and should be changed |

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
997
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:55:00 -
[6212] - Quote
So many themepark carebear tears, excellent. The Tears Must Flow |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:07:00 -
[6213] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.
havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode? ...if so that would be sad and should be changed
And it is even worse. (Underlined part)
I tested the 1400 arty version within sisi with high tracking, an MJD, only one t2 invul and an afterburner, because sometimes it is just stupid to triangulate for 20 km. The problem with this ship is the way you need to use it.
I did a worlds collide and first pocket I used afterburner to get to the gate and with my range rig i could target the rats and kill them on the way. Yay, saved some time.
Second pocket i needed to instantly activate MJD and jumped off, activated bastion and kill the rats. While it is totally relaxing you have to use all guns one by one or you lose a lot of isk/hour. Still it seems a lot slower and i really needed more time then with a package of 800s. Maybe due to angels.
ATM the bastion turned off the vargur starts accelerating in direction and with speed it had before it went into Bastion. so to activate MJD again you have to re align, lose speed and accelerate again.
Conclusion
I don't know, this style is nothing for me. I like to fly into a bunch of ships, take full agro and kill em all. Vargur was already an awesome tanker, something what a macha never could do. For me with bastion you take it away. I do not need more tank, i need more damage.
And for a Vargur the applied damage in fall-off means nothing if your fall off is 60km or 70, when you are used to kill the rats at 30km. it increases the max damage by around 20 dps.
You only can apply most damage if you stay inside a 90% DPS range, which for 70km fall off means within 20km (addition of 5km optimal). |

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
435
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:29:00 -
[6214] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:To me it seems like bastion is just going to be another MJD mod that nobody uses.
Except that MJD is used a lot these days, even though it was declared "completely useless" by forum warriors at the time of its introduction. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:31:00 -
[6215] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.
havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode? ...if so that would be sad and should be changed as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps.
As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:35:00 -
[6216] - Quote
Please entertain this suggestion:
Bastion: Increases shield and armor repair amount by 37.5%
Increases all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
Increases shield and armor HP by 50%
Increases capacitor regeneration by 20%
Increases capacitor amount by 20%
Increases sensor strength by 50%. No E-war immunity.
Suffers a penalty on all remote assistance by 50%.
-The extremely effective active tanking was instead moved to a more reliable and durable tanking model. -The bastion now functions as a panic button, raising both capacitor and buffer at the moment of activation. -E-war immunity was removed to allow a less absolute solution, although still quite resilient. -The RA lockout was removed, instead an effectiveness reduction was introduced to allow the support of advanced fleet actions and player interaction in a more complex manner. I did not remove the penalty fully because I do not believe CCP is prepared to accept to go that far. -The range bonuses were moved to the hulls as to not cause an artificial need to enter bastion to get the extra range and thus create an excessive immobility for Marauders; Bastion should remain a situational defensive module and not drag down the ships mobility because of being superior for all roles applicable at the same time.
Marauder
As marauders crave flexibility I added this gem of a feature, I proposed this previously, I'm really fond of it.
A marauder has the option of fitting extra offline module alternatives and put them online in space, they can fit 8H/ 8M/ 8L total slots in the hangar of which some will be offline; Only the use of a predefined number of modules at the same time in space is allowed, Vargur has 7H /6M /5L, thus its secondary offline modules possible to fit/online would be 1H /2M / 3L.
The ship: -Noteworthy is the heat damage bonus, I find this is warranted on Marauders to follow their high quality mark and the longevity of them; It is an excellent PvP bonus and a decent PvE panic feature as well, all round useful and fits Marauders very nicely. -I kept the low speed of the Vargur because I got the distinct feeling CCP won't raise it further, so the design relies on the original feature of the MJD. -I raised the drone bay a bit to allow more flights and even one or two flights of medium drones, I see little issue with larger drone bays on Marauder, especially given their role. -There are two launcher slots, those are to follow the general design of Minmatar ships, especially the Tempest, the option should be there; It provides very little raw dps so that is not a problem as such, it merely allows options. -The range bonuses do not suffer stacking penalties, if a problem exists with short range weaponry reaching too far then rebalance Barrage, artillery uses falloff just the same and should not be penalized because of this.
VARGUR
Role bonus: 100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage. 70% Reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay. 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams 50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.(new) 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal range.(moved from bastion) 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff.(moved from bastion)
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level. 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level. 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level.
Slot layout: 7H(8), 6M(8), 5L(8); 4 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 8200 / 8200 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110m/s / ? / 96520000/ ~16.0s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200 Sensor strength: 28 Ladar
|

Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:40:00 -
[6217] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:While re-balancing, devs might skip the bigger picture, as many games felt into this error many times in the past. The more numbers they play with, the more the whole picture fades away. I thought addition of the mass to hulls was a mistake (in reverse order) at first, but when I realize that they really added those to "balance" numbers, this made me sure of that they're missing the whole picture again.
Consider this game's faction philosopies and their common construction practices as deities.
The more science you try to put into the mechanics, the less scientists left with belief to these deities, abandoning them, leaving whole idea to perish in the way of numbers of *balancing mechanics*.
This is why this thread is 300+ pages long. To exaragate this and add some trolling, devs might end up putting laser bonus on the Vargur, in order to balance (*caugh* normalize *caugh*) faction differences some time in the future :P
I'm trolling a lot now, but I've seen this happening in different games, not one time, not twice, ... I hope people get what I mean.
Edit: I hope this trolling will end up with one dev reading into these lines and get some sort of early sign of warning. You guys running into wrong direction, with, unfortunately, right toolbox in your hands.
This bastion mod should be doubled, with another one giving more mobility bonuses. If not, since ccp philosopy is to create two different sides of same thing, you should boost mobility of normal Vargur, as much as you boost tanking on bastion mode. MJD is a way to go, but it will prevent some people from enjoying this game. A LOT.
Why don't u just get a Mach if u want mobility? Oh wait in this thread people want more mobility yet elsewhere people want the Mach nerfed. What the hell are ccp supposed to do with such mixed messages from the community? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:42:00 -
[6218] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Please entertain this suggestion:
Bastion:
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 37.5%
Increases all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
Increases shield and armor HP by 50%
Increases capacitor regeneration by 20%
Increases capacitor amount by 20%
Increases sensor strength by 50%. No E-war immunity.
Suffers a penalty on all remote assistance by 50%.
-The extremely effective active tanking was instead moved to a more reliable and durable tanking model. -The bastion now functions as a panic button, raising both capacitor and buffer at the moment of activation. -E-war immunity was removed to allow a less absolute solution, although still quite resilient. -The RA lockout was removed, instead an effectiveness reduction was introduced to allow the support of advanced fleet actions and player interaction in a more complex manner. I did not remove the penalty fully because I do not believe CCP is prepared to accept to go that far. -The range bonuses were moved to the hulls as to not cause an artificial need to enter bastion to get the extra range and thus create an excessive immobility for Marauders; Bastion should remain a situational defensive module and not drag down the ships mobility because of being superior for all roles applicable at the same time.
Marauder
As marauders crave flexibility I added this gem of a feature, I proposed this previously, I'm really fond of it.
A marauder has the option of fitting extra offline module alternatives and put them online in space, they can fit 8H/ 8M/ 8L total slots in the hangar of which some will be offline; Only the use of a predefined number of modules at the same time in space is allowed, Vargur has 7H /6M /5L, thus its secondary offline modules possible to fit/online would be 1H /2M / 3L.
The ship: -Noteworthy is the heat damage bonus, I find this is warranted on Marauders to follow their high quality mark and the longevity of them; It is an excellent PvP bonus and a decent PvE panic feature as well, all round useful and fits Marauders very nicely. -I kept the low speed of the Vargur because I got the distinct feeling CCP won't raise it further, so the design relies on the original feature of the MJD. -I raised the drone bay a bit to allow more flights and even one or two flights of medium drones, I see little issue with larger drone bays on Marauder, especially given their role. -There are two launcher slots, those are to follow the general design of Minmatar ships, especially the Tempest, the option should be there; It provides very little raw dps so that is not a problem as such, it merely allows options. -The range bonuses do not suffer stacking penalties, if a problem exists with short range weaponry reaching too far then rebalance Barrage, artillery uses falloff just the same and should not be penalized because of this.
VARGUR
Role bonus: 100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage. 70% Reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay. 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams 50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.(new) 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal range.(moved from bastion) 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff.(moved from bastion)
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level. 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level. 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level.
Slot layout: 7H(8), 6M(8), 5L(8); 4 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 8200 / 8200 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110m/s / ? / 96520000/ ~16.0s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200 Sensor strength: 28 Ladar
this makes the base hulls far far too powerfull. talk about power creep wow. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:06:00 -
[6219] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: ... this makes the base hulls far far too powerfull. ...
What does?
You quoted the whole post and gave a one liner as "constructive feedback", try to be more specific.
Anize Oramara wrote: ... talk about power creep wow.
Knee jerk comments don't do anything to further the discussion, wow indeed. I'm tired of thought ending and highly dismissive comments like yours, either provide constructive criticism or refrain from replying, if you can.
Thank you. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:49:00 -
[6220] - Quote
200 dronebay a Full fall off bonus not requiring marader 5 ditto with optimal bonus 50% heat absorption
ALL without ANY tradeoffs the very defonition of powercreep...
and the bastion bonuses...
do you have any idea what kind of insane ehp you can get with non stacking penalised omni 30% resists AND 50% armor AND shield hp?
the fact that I had to spell it out to you... just how disconnected are you with how this game works? how can you not see how absolutely op your proposed changes are? |
|

Enduros
Ostian Industries Hand of Despair
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:53:00 -
[6221] - Quote
I'm not impressed. The so called projection bonus is stacking penalized with tracking comps right? Everyone is already fitting all the projection they can into them so the bastion is useless in that regard, apart from the golem I guess. Sure, tank is nice, but not needed. Only place I can think of where this might actually be handy is in null combat signatures, but even then it's not needed. A drone boat with MJD does the job just as well and has way better projection at MJD ranges.
As it stands the whole MJD+bastion concept is a wash. A drone boat does the same thing, but can actually apply meaningful dps at 100km. Short range guns on a marauder will not do much at 100km, long range guns do less damage then a drone boat. What is the point again?
The tank has never been an issue. You nerfed cap recharge on all but the paladin? So basically you want people to use injectors? That's fine I didn't want that hullspace for loot anyway I rather carry around cap charges. Also has anyone mentioned that all the extra tank is useless because of this thing called neuts? I can't possibly think of a use for these things that other ships don't do as good or better. There maybe a couple of missions that will be easier with them, but that's it.
You can't use them in anoms with bastion, especially with the new warp speed changes. I mean 60 sec cycle lol... a carrier has more GTFO then that. Also a carrier will do more dps with better projection. Who is gonna use this thing in pvp? You siege it you lose it.
The Varg seems to be getting the short end of the stick just like it did when they first came out. Everyone is already running with 3 falloff mods so the extra 5% from when you use bastion that has stacking penalties isn't something I would call a bonus. So great I can fit arti now, problem is arti suck balls for PvE and a mach will have more alpha anyway.
So 2 things: Reduce bastion cycle time to 30sec Remove stacking penalty from the projection bonus |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:07:00 -
[6222] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.
havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode? ...if so that would be sad and should be changed as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps. As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use.
I have to say it again. Vargur was always good in applying damage. I t only sucked on sensor strength and scan resolution. Tank was awesome. If you fly into a bunch of ships with 600m/s (booster) or 500 without, you can take full agro in close range and kill em all.
Vargur was already an awesome tanker, something what a macha never could do. For me with bastion you take this away. I do not need more tank, i need more damage. so i would only activate bastion if i am e-wared to death, but after i flew into the ships.
And for a Vargur the applied damage in fall-off means nothing if your fall off is 60km or 70 when you are used to kill the rats at 30km. it increases the max damage by around 20 dps.
You only can apply most damage if you stay inside a 90% DPS range, which for 70km fall off means within 20km (addition of 5km optimal).
25% more optimum gives you 25% more range of full damage if you hit. 25% more fall off gives you a slight increase of already reduced damage. Thats the crap.
Whoever thinks that a vargur with 80km fall-off fights at 80 km is a moron. its less then 50% damage. And it brings me nothing if I apply it SO GOOD. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
200
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:28:00 -
[6223] - Quote
I ask again, since it is consistently ignored, is it to much to ask for to keep the current marauders ingame(or actually fix them) as a separate hull?
The active tanking focus isn't that useful:
- In incs it is useless, same as bastion is(marauders spider tank, the hole active tanking idea only comes for people that are not used to fly Incs with marauders), same goes to RR based groups in WH - single boxing L4 it is hardly useful(I 2-3 slot tank them already), multi boxing them I take close to zero damage anyway, and sitting around 60s is hilarious bad once you manage to apply 150k+ damage in this time frame
Web and projection bonuses are far more handy then tank most of the time(axe the active tanking bonus for another projection bonus): - both in pvp and pve, the web bonus is actually extreme useful for people that know how to utilize it - Rail Kronos with 125/275 and the sentry tracking/optimal bonus would bring the Kronos finaly to competitive dps levels - high mwd speed plus optimal bonus and a bigger drone bay makes the Vargur a impressive artillery/sentry platform - a lot more speed and a explosion velocity bonus on the golem making it finally useful with torps again - optimal or tracking bonus on the pala(the optimal is a bit to strong in my opinion, but suit yourself).
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders
I think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:28:00 -
[6224] - Quote
you seem to be grossly missing the point. no group of ships will ever be farther away than 50km from you. thats the beauty of the mjd. many times you can instantly jump to 20km or less from them with the mjd instead of taking 3min to burn towards them. the TCs in the mids will usually be tracking scripted, not range. this means I will be getting penetrating hits 1/2 to 1/3 of the time greatly increasing my dps. many missions start with the rats 20-30km away.
I know this because that is what I experienced on the test server. that beats theory crafting any day. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:31:00 -
[6225] - Quote
The Djego wrote:I ask again, since it is consistently ignored, is it to much to ask for to keep the current marauders ingame(or actually fix them) as a separate hull? The active tanking focus isn't that useful: - In incs it is useless, same as bastion is(marauders spider tank, the hole active tanking idea only comes for people that are not used to fly Incs with marauders), same goes to RR based groups in WH - single boxing L4 it is hardly useful(I 2-3 slot tank them already), multi boxing them I take close to zero damage anyway, and sitting around 60s is hilarious bad once you manage to apply 150k+ damage in this time frame Web and projection bonuses are far more handy then tank most of the time(axe the active tanking bonus for another projection bonus): - both in pvp and pve, the web bonus is actually extreme useful for people that know how to utilize it - Rail Kronos with 125/275 and the sentry tracking/optimal bonus would bring the Kronos finaly to competitive dps levels - high mwd speed plus optimal bonus and a bigger drone bay makes the Vargur a impressive artillery/sentry platform - a lot more speed and a explosion velocity bonus on the golem making it finally useful with torps again - optimal or tracking bonus on the pala(the optimal is a bit to strong in my opinion, but suit yourself). http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-MaraudersI think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them. I actually fly marauders and I freaking love the proposed changes on sisi.
but I prolly dont count because I dont agree with you correct? |

Drakast
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:39:00 -
[6226] - Quote
its been a while since CCP did something that truly p*ssed me off.
im not sure if you are aware of this but there is 77 paladins flying incursions. 11 of which fly together in the one fleet that i have been following FOR MONTHS patiently waiting for that right time to swoop in and kill them , these guys are really good at what they do, they can clear a site in just over 4 minutes, they wipe the floor with all but the highest end shield fleets and even then the paladin wins 9 time out of 10.
These ships are the very top of the battleship chain and delicious targets to kill but you and your stupid changes are going to make them useless.
You post made me laugh when you said you tried them in incursions. you dont have a clue how to run an incursion site the way these guys do it and ill make a prediction for you -
paladins are going to disappear from incursions the prices will crash and that cutting edge paladin fleet flying about wasting everyone will stop flying and months of my time will be wasted.
bring back solo pvp my hairy arse.
Rise, Fozzie, you 2 are good at what you do but this marauder change is a total fail -1
Ps so this post isnt all negative moaning i have a suggestion for you to consider.
Add a second class to the marauders leave the paladin as it is and make a new ship with your changes. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
200
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:49:00 -
[6227] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: I think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them.
I actually fly marauders and I freaking love the proposed changes on sisi. but I prolly dont count because I dont agree with you correct?
It says nowhere to not introduce your over tanked gimp mobile.
Also is it this hard to understand that there is zero use for the extra tank for most pve? Mjd just slows you down compared to fit the hulls with a mwd and that the changes do nothing good at all in RR environments.
I tested the changes with any single marauder and beside the paladin(what gets a bit better for L4 by the extra range, but sledgehammer by the loss of the web) they all are considerable worse that her current version. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

SOL Ranger
SOL.
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:51:00 -
[6228] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:200 dronebay a Full fall off bonus not requiring marader 5 ditto with optimal bonus 50% heat absorption
ALL without ANY tradeoffs the very defonition of powercreep...
and the bastion bonuses...
do you have any idea what kind of insane ehp you can get with non stacking penalised omni 30% resists AND 50% armor AND shield hp?
the fact that I had to spell it out to you... just how disconnected are you with how this game works? how can you not see how absolutely op your proposed changes are?
Marauder hull: ... the range bonuses aren't full bonuses, a full falloff bonus is 50%, do you complain about destroyers getting an actual full optimal bonus in their role? If the range bonuses on the hulls feel like too much then say so, but stop reaching for ridiculous reasons to complain about things just because you want to have debate class.
It loses one high slot for the tradeoff for a 50% heat absorb, I don't think that is unreasonable.
200m3 dronebay isn't OP in any sense, especially when talking about marauders role and how they lost bandwidth, stop exaggerating.
Bastion: It loses a major part of its repair bonus, from 100% to 37.5%, converted into 50% shield/armor hp and some capacitor.
EHP yes, that is the point of it, to move back the active tank and instead increase the HP to create an actual "BASTION", did you not read the reasoning either? The ship will be a sitting duck when it has this EHP, and it loses the insane active tank, i don't get what you're on about.
Loses E-war immunity for a decent sensor strength.
It gains a partial RA ability so it won't be completely shunned from group play.
Instead of it gaining a full active tank bastion, it gains a buffer/active tank bastion, regardless of which way the pilot decides to go it will be less effective than a fully focused one yet more forgiving for all roles.
If your goal is to make them completely OP, as you say my suggestion is, the goal would be to focus the bonuses into one area only, that being either 100% into HP/resistance or 100% into boost/resistance, the officially proposed Bastion being the latter.
To bite back with the same ridiculous lip you gave me: The fact that I had to spell it out for you... just how disconnected are you with how this game works? How can you not see how absolutely op the current official bastion proposed changes are in comparison to this one?
There may be many things that are too powerful or useful, none of the things you mentioned are, at least in the ways you mentioned.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:15:00 -
[6229] - Quote
Luckily any proposed changed made by players are usually far too obviously broken. I have no doubt that CCP would never actually consider implementing them so dont misunderstand my reasons for arguing against them. I am merely trying to assertain if you genuinely believe in those changes or if you are trolling.
not sure yet.
that story about the palladins though 8/10 would prolly read again. has to be fake though as he just gave away his super sekrit master plan in the one place on this entire forum where they would see it.
gg
serioisly though, super stoked about the bastion module. was sad that sisi was down and I couldnt play more last night. still need to run that guristas extravagansa. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:54:00 -
[6230] - Quote
I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:
= Paladin vs Abaddon = Raw turret dps is equal. Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.
= Vargur vs Maelstrom = Raw turret dps is equal. Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50
In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the vargur paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.
How to implement: My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauder very different from pirates. My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175
Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
594
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:26:00 -
[6231] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Arcosian wrote:To me it seems like bastion is just going to be another MJD mod that nobody uses. Except that MJD is used a lot these days, even though it was declared "completely useless" by forum warriors at the time of its introduction.
Yeah, I didn't think I was gonna like MJD on the Marauder, but after playing around with triangulation they work great.
Oh, and it's not that difficult to triangulate. You can do it visually if you're not special ed. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8299
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:27:00 -
[6232] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:
= Paladin vs Abaddon = Raw turret dps is equal. Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.
= Vargur vs Maelstrom = Raw turret dps is equal. Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50
In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.
How to implement: My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175
Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better
Because in the case of the kronos we could slap on drone damage mods in all of those spare tank slots we now have and get crazy amounts of damage out of them. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:31:00 -
[6233] - Quote
Drakast wrote: its been a while since CCP did something that truly p*ssed me off.
im not sure if you are aware of this but there is 77 paladins flying incursions. 11 of which fly together in the one fleet that i have been following FOR MONTHS patiently waiting for that right time to swoop in and kill them , these guys are really good at what they do, they can clear a site in just over 4 minutes, they wipe the floor with all but the highest end shield fleets and even then the paladin wins 9 time out of 10.
These ships are the very top of the battleship chain and delicious targets to kill but you and your stupid changes are going to make them useless.
You post made me laugh when you said you tried them in incursions. you dont have a clue how to run an incursion site the way these guys do it and ill make a prediction for you -
paladins are going to disappear from incursions the prices will crash and that cutting edge paladin fleet flying about wasting everyone will stop flying and months of my time will be wasted.
bring back solo pvp my hairy arse.
Rise, Fozzie, you 2 are good at what you do but this marauder change is a total fail -1
Ps so this post isnt all negative moaning i have a suggestion for you to consider.
Add a second class to the marauders leave the paladin as it is and make a new ship with your changes.
These posts are just absolutely hilarious. Paladin lost 50m3 of drone bandwidth and 5m/sec base speed. Paladin gained an optimal range bonus, a high slot, and a huge amount of capacitor. Even without the stupid bastion module fitted at all it's much better. |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:36:00 -
[6234] - Quote
I can see everyone crying but I am probably one of people who likes the changes I am really looking forward to new paladin which will be at least for me much better in L4 missions
and I dont see major probem in frigates 1) I can jump out and wipe them 2) I can use drones to destroy them
But yeah ... the truth is that I am not flying incursion and that is maybe the reason why I like the changes :-)
|

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:43:00 -
[6235] - Quote
I believe that we should maybe get "bonus to targeting range". It will be really helpful (we get range but we dont get better targeting range)
maybe something like +5% per level or something like that Some of the marauder (especially vargur) will jump out and lost targets... |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:58:00 -
[6236] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:
= Paladin vs Abaddon = Raw turret dps is equal. Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.
= Vargur vs Maelstrom = Raw turret dps is equal. Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50
In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.
How to implement: My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175
Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better Because in the case of the kronos we could slap on drone damage mods in all of those spare tank slots we now have and get crazy amounts of damage out of them. Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.
Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.
|

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:12:00 -
[6237] - Quote
Anyone complaining about the Golem is bonkers. Golems have always been PvE beasts and now they are amazing. I donGÇÖt run incursions or WH so I wonGÇÖt comment on their effectiveness in them but they great at all other PvE. I agree with Ytterbium that the TP bonus way out performs a missile velocity and explosion radius bonus. Besides more mid slots free make the Golem OP. The drone bay and hull un-nerfs make the golem even more effective. Personally very happy to have a PvE ship like this in my arsenal.
Vargur is a mixed bag I donGÇÖt know if I like it or not seems ok at everything but I just get bored using it on Sisi. Very Meh. Good tank, average damage, damage projection ok, good alpha. I feel the scan resolution could be buffed or a sensor booster effectiveness bonus. The slot layout makes it a hard fit as too many low not enough mediums. Still its ok 3 extra highs gives all these ships some potential.
Kronos is really being forced to use rails as it canGÇÖt realistically use blasters. I would like this ship if it was simply a sentry drone ship. The fact the ship + the sentry canGÇÖt move and you can remote assist your sentries with the extra high slots and med slots for tracking would make this interesting while fitting gallante ship mechanics. Now itGÇÖs a garbage dps vindicator that canGÇÖt move/web or an armor tanking rokh that canGÇÖt move. Both said ships cover the role better than the Kronos as they can both use MJD and move. Yes the Kronos can move outside bastion but then itGÇÖs a rokh without ASB potential. Currently Active armor tanks are irrelevant when they are immobile and 100% cap dependent. If the MJD was zero second pool up it would be worthy. Now 52 second reuse timer is ok but tbh I usually wait 3 minutes in-between jumps anyway. In short it does nothing special.
To say I hate the Paladin more than an armor tanking drake with rockets would be an understatement. It can do effective dps of 650-750 dps with scorch at 70-90km meh. Apoc does this too at less optimum granted and can use the MJD almost as effective. The paladin isnGÇÖt good PvE because it lacks DPS on NPC ships except drones and Sansha. I feel for the Incursion guys because the web bonus was the only thing that made this ship special as an Amaar BS now canGÇÖt be remote assisted. The ship cannot be fixed conventionally and I guess you canGÇÖt please everyone but I expected a lot from this ship. The ship canGÇÖt be used in PvP and it isnGÇÖt effective PvE. I ask CCP what is this ship supposed to specialize at doing? Not to be rude I am curious. I donGÇÖt think you will be able to give these ships away never mind the price tag. There are so many weaknesses to this ship. Range bonuses to NOS like the TP on the golem could give it adequate cap to defend itself from a NPC NEWT which would increase the effectiveness in some PvE scenarios. But nothing short of 20% bonus to cap battery effectiveness per level would make this ship viable in PvP.
They are PvE ships clearly.
I like the deployable salvage thingy sounds fun.
|

Vulfen
Bio Tech.
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:40:00 -
[6238] - Quote
I think people need to remember that pirate BS are going to be getting a nerf (or buff depending on ship) the pirate BS dont get "Roles" they are just straight down the line BS with skills where as T2 ships have specific roles, the new marauders will not be able to fit more of a buffer than the existing pirate BS for fleets(while outside of bastion), they will have less damage than a pirate BS, but better range for applying DPS, the MJD bonus is good a will be used well by most, due to the high cargo hold aswell it is very easy to take a large number of cap boosters to keep an active hardend tank and some nice utility highs to fit 2 NOS 1 SB on them meaning drones will clear nice n easily. sure you sensor strength is low but there has to be trade-offs personally i can see the that for low sec corps who like to use shiny fleets of Faction bs will likely make a switch to have at least some of their fleet made up of these ships.
However If CCP was to give the base hulls the T2 resistances then we would see a complete power shift to these ships for fleet fights. currently you need to be in bastion to beat the buffer of a well fit Vindicator/Mach, and this is running a high tank setup 4 B-Type active hardeners and a C-Type energised.
Depending on how the market sits after these changes i think we might see them in pvp, but only if the hull price drops to around 600-700mill because they are not as good as some of the pirate ships but do beat the navy faction so aslong as the price fits between those 2 they will fit perfectly in CCPs chart they made about how ships should be balanced.
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
200
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:41:00 -
[6239] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Luckily any proposed changed made by players are usually far too obviously broken. I have no doubt that CCP would never actually consider implementing them so dont misunderstand my reasons for arguing against them. I am merely trying to assertain if you genuinely believe in those changes or if you are trolling.
not sure yet.
The problem is that most people that play the game don't really understand it. It should be very obvious why a marauder without a active tanking bonus, more speed, sensor strength, lock speed, another projection bonus and utility bonuses geared towards RR and mwd movement is far better for most pve and most pvp scenarios then what CCP has in mind(it is ok that they lose some stuff for massive tanks, however it is not ok that people should lose her marauders for ships and stuff they have no use for to begin with). It is actually a very balanced solution to marauders, from someone that flown all of them a lot and knows where they could use a little helping hand to be overall more appealing compared to faction BS, not because they are they are plain more powerful(what they are not), but because they add useful bonuses to gangs, and cover certain niches better than her faction counterparts.
I for myself don't need the extra tank(not for L4 and certainly not when I use RR), however I am interested in keeping the marauders useful for more than having a afk friendly tank, for people that did know why, when and how to fly marauders. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:15:00 -
[6240] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Luckily any proposed changed made by players are usually far too obviously broken. I have no doubt that CCP would never actually consider implementing them so dont misunderstand my reasons for arguing against them. I am merely trying to assertain if you genuinely believe in those changes or if you are trolling.
not sure yet. The problem is that most people that play the game don't really understand it. It should be very obvious why a marauder without a active tanking bonus, more speed, sensor strength, lock speed, another projection bonus and utility bonuses geared towards RR and mwd movement is far better for most pve and most pvp scenarios then what CCP has in mind(it is ok that they lose some stuff for massive tanks, however it is not ok that people should lose her marauders for ships and stuff they have no use for to begin with). It is actually a very balanced solution to marauders, from someone that flown all of them a lot and knows where they could use a little helping hand to be overall more appealing compared to faction BS, not because they are they are plain more powerful(what they are not), but because they add useful bonuses to gangs, and cover certain niches better than her faction counterparts. I for myself don't need the extra tank(not for L4 and certainly not when I use RR), however I am interested in keeping the marauders useful for more than having a afk friendly tank, for people that did know why, when and how to fly marauders.
The Djego, you know we will be mothballing ours, or selling them. The Marauder class had a specialized role, a PvE ship. It was never designed for PvP, outside of the Alliance tourney, which in and of itself is contrived PvP.
So now CCP is trying to make it into a PvP sniper boat with MjD capabilities. Think there are 2 or 3 T1 BS's that do that now.
But fight this is over. Another terrible design of a ship will get rammed through. There will be tears after the masses who don't even read the forums start flying them and realize how terribad they are.
Prices will spike for them before and just after Nov 19th. Then they will slowly slide as the full awfulness is realized. By then, we will be flying another class of ship, inferior to the current Marauder, and just sadly shaking our heads. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1016
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:27:00 -
[6241] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The Djego wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Luckily any proposed changed made by players are usually far too obviously broken. I have no doubt that CCP would never actually consider implementing them so dont misunderstand my reasons for arguing against them. I am merely trying to assertain if you genuinely believe in those changes or if you are trolling.
not sure yet. The problem is that most people that play the game don't really understand it. It should be very obvious why a marauder without a active tanking bonus, more speed, sensor strength, lock speed, another projection bonus and utility bonuses geared towards RR and mwd movement is far better for most pve and most pvp scenarios then what CCP has in mind(it is ok that they lose some stuff for massive tanks, however it is not ok that people should lose her marauders for ships and stuff they have no use for to begin with). It is actually a very balanced solution to marauders, from someone that flown all of them a lot and knows where they could use a little helping hand to be overall more appealing compared to faction BS, not because they are they are plain more powerful(what they are not), but because they add useful bonuses to gangs, and cover certain niches better than her faction counterparts. I for myself don't need the extra tank(not for L4 and certainly not when I use RR), however I am interested in keeping the marauders useful for more than having a afk friendly tank, for people that did know why, when and how to fly marauders. The Djego, you know we will be mothballing ours, or selling them. The Marauder class had a specialized role, a PvE ship. It was never designed for PvP, outside of the Alliance tourney, which in and of itself is contrived PvP. So now CCP is trying to make it into a PvP sniper boat with MjD capabilities. Think there are 2 or 3 T1 BS's that do that now. But fight this is over. Another terrible design of a ship will get rammed through. There will be tears after the masses who don't even read the forums start flying them and realize how terribad they are. Prices will spike for them before and just after Nov 19th. Then they will slowly slide as the full awfulness is realized. By then, we will be flying another class of ship, inferior to the current Marauder, and just sadly shaking our heads.
There is no such thing as "PvE" in this game, and shootings ships is not the "PvP" part of the game. EvE is not split in half like the simplistic kindergarten themepark mmo-rpg games you play. The Tears Must Flow |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:02:00 -
[6242] - Quote
Regarding the price of the hulls, I'm still shaky at making calculations, so I was using a program called ISK Per Hour, and looked at making a Golem after importing prices from Jita.
I keep seeing the hull costing close to 1 billion just to make it, after getting bits. Some people have inferred they might get cheaper if no one uses them? Unless people buy the first ones at massive losses from the desperate seller, won't that mean the hulls will _always_ cost over a billion? I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:03:00 -
[6243] - Quote
Vulven: Quote:"but better range for applying DPS,"
Thats just wrong. The only ones having it is Paladin, rail Kronos, Cruise Golem and Arty Vargur.
Cruise golem and arty vargur don't need it. Torp golem and ac vargur can't get the big advantage out of it. Torps are still too close and falloff bonus gives nearly no advantage. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
790
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:37:00 -
[6244] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Regarding the price of the hulls, I'm still shaky at making calculations, so I was using a program called ISK Per Hour, and looked at making a Golem after importing prices from Jita.
I keep seeing the hull costing close to 1 billion just to make it, after getting bits. Some people have inferred they might get cheaper if no one uses them? Unless people buy the first ones at massive losses from the desperate seller, won't that mean the hulls will _always_ cost over a billion?
It does, unless you're buying from a manufacturer who thinks that the minerals and T2 components they acquire themselves are somehow free. |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:15:00 -
[6245] - Quote
Maradeurs need a boost to be more or less attractive both in pvp and pve, the forced long range role won't work. There are still ships which can do everything better. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:19:00 -
[6246] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: wait, you go 700m/s with an AB in a Vargur?
Wat?
With lv5 skills and a Gist X-type 100mn AB you go 479m/s so stop talking out your rear orifice.
Before getting arrogant, just look up what you said (I based my calculations on what you wrote, not mine).
Anize Oramara wrote: ...if you are going around 700m/s it will take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME as doing a triangulation...
So you are trolling a number out of your mind, then criticize ppl when it is used by them? Nice work.
Let me tell you what, even with 479m/s, I will cover up to 42km range faster than your triangulation, which will still fall 10-40km of common acceleration gate range in missions.
Anize Oramara wrote: Also, for the minute I'm bastioned I have pretty decent accurate guns since I'm standing still and not going 700m/s so popping frigs etc.
I have never had any problem doing this. By the time I start moving, frigs blows first, cruisers later and by the time I get near to acceleration gate, only bs' remain mostly, On the half-way, I generally shut off my AB, in order to start salvaging at the same time. There are two possibilities at this position: - You are ~100km away and you won't be hitting anything very well with your AC. - You are ~100km away with an Arty fit and you kill stuff for sure, but with slower rate.
Anize Oramara wrote: Thats also not taking into account the misisons where the gates are FARTHER than 50km away, like 100km+ I'll be on the gate in 9sec. good luck catching up in those.
(Edit: I don't quite understand here, I'm not waiting with AB fit, you are the one waiting for bastion cycles. On the other hand, how many lvl4 missions can you count that has 100km+ acceleration gate seperation? O.o)
And thats also not taking into account that you killed everything but you recently started another bastion cycle, good luck waiting another minute, watching the beautiful nebula.
You have been talking like when you finish clearing a room, you will instantly start using your MJD. Your 88 seconds of triangulation will only work if you won't auto-repeat your bastion cycles. Since your second jump will finalize the "triangle", you will end up near acceleration gate or your target location, which will get your (arty fit?) appear closer to enemies, then guess what happens with the tracking?
Mostly, what you'll get is a cleared room with bastion module somewhere half-way. Good luck with your waits.
Anize Oramara wrote: Also don't be that guy who cant switch out a MJD for a MWD depending on the mission. It's not that hard I can give you a video tutorial on switching out modules if you need it.
You clearly don't understand the facts I have been trying to argue here. This is a re-balance thread and I've been arguing something much different. I can fit an armor tanked Vargur, even tough it is a ST, with no problem, but you see, it would be just writing something to fill spaces... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8300
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:40:00 -
[6247] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.
Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.
Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:41:00 -
[6248] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote: There is no such thing as "PvE" in this game, and shootings ships is not the "PvP" part of the game. EvE is not split in half like the simplistic kindergarten themepark mmo-rpg games you play.
LMAO. No such therm? Aren't there? Let me tell you mister, you are incredibly confused.
Taken directly from source: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/PvP
" The term "PvP" stands for "Player vs. Player". PvP activities are a major feature of Eve Online. The term can be used to describe anything from ship to ship combat to market competition against your peers. In most cases, however, the term is used to refer to ship to ship combat between players, either individually, or in groups.
For some players, PvP combat is the primary reason to play Eve Online. For others, it's simply one of many aspects of the game. Some players prefer to avoid, if possible, any involvement in PvP combat, preferring to focus on the "Player vs. Environment" (PvE) aspects of Eve Online. These players are sometimes referred to as "carebears". "
So, with that confusion cleared up, yes, marauders were the ships of PvE, and yes, CCP is trying to make them viable PvP option.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
594
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:00:00 -
[6249] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote: I have never had any problem doing this. By the time I start moving, frigs blows first, cruisers later and by the time I get near to acceleration gate, only bs' remain mostly, On the half-way, I generally shut off my AB, in order to start salvaging at the same time. There are two possibilities at this position: - You are ~100km away and you won't be hitting anything very well with your AC. - You are ~100km away with an Arty fit and you kill stuff for sure, but with slower rate.
What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster. With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster...
Quote:(Edit: I don't quite understand here, I'm not waiting with AB fit, you are the one waiting for bastion cycles. On the other hand, how many lvl4 missions can you count that has 100km+ acceleration gate seperation? O.o)
And thats also not taking into account that you killed everything but you recently started another bastion cycle, good luck waiting another minute, watching the beautiful nebula.
You have been talking like when you finish clearing a room, you will instantly start using your MJD. Your 88 seconds of triangulation will only work if you won't auto-repeat your bastion cycles. Since your second jump will finalize the "triangle", you will end up near acceleration gate or your target location, which will get your (arty fit?) appear closer to enemies, then guess what happens with the tracking?
Mostly, what you'll get is a cleared room with bastion module somewhere half-way. Good luck with your waits.
You're not factoring the bigger picture here. Odds are you will run more than one bastion cycle before you are able to clear a room. I MJD out, Bastion, kill some stuff, MJD to gate, bastion, kill some stuff, and end bastion cycle while there are 2-3 ships left.
You come in and bastion, kills stuff, and MWD/AB to gate. Maybe you run to gate when you only have a couple targets left, but you also lose out on tracking by doing so.
Point is, even if we're able to get to the gate at the same time, I am doing so much more effectively in that i'm not losing out to tracking difficulties during this process.
Quote:Anize Oramara wrote: Also don't be that guy who cant switch out a MJD for a MWD depending on the mission. It's not that hard I can give you a video tutorial on switching out modules if you need it.
You clearly don't understand the facts I have been trying to argue here. This is a re-balance thread and I've been arguing something much different. I can fit an armor tanked Vargur, even though it is a ST, with no problem, but you see, it would be just writing something to fill spaces...
HUH? |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:01:00 -
[6250] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Vaju Enki wrote: There is no such thing as "PvE" in this game, and shootings ships is not the "PvP" part of the game. EvE is not split in half like the simplistic kindergarten themepark mmo-rpg games you play.
LMAO. No such thing? Aren't there? Let me tell you mister, you are incredibly confused. Taken directly from source: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/PvP" The term "PvP" stands for "Player vs. Player". PvP activities are a major feature of Eve Online. The term can be used to describe anything from ship to ship combat to market competition against your peers. In most cases, however, the term is used to refer to ship to ship combat between players, either individually, or in groups. For some players, PvP combat is the primary reason to play Eve Online. For others, it's simply one of many aspects of the game. Some players prefer to avoid, if possible, any involvement in PvP combat, preferring to focus on the "Player vs. Environment" (PvE) aspects of Eve Online. These players are sometimes referred to as "carebears". " So, with that confusion cleared up, yes, marauders were the ships of PvE, and yes, CCP is trying to make them viable PvP option.
and when the environment functions identically to other players? what happens then? the categories you've pointed out are conceptual only they don't actually exist for ships in EvE only for the players using them.
They only serve to differentiate one intention behind and action and another, no ship in EvE is forced only to fly in missions, or incursions or in PVP fleets or in wormhole anomalies, to say a ship is designed for a given mechanic exclusively is what's moronic.
- ships may be better or worse than others at executing a certain task, but all ships are equally capable of making the attempt in some manner - it's just a question of the measures a player must take in order to make it possible.
all you're pointing out here is pilots are taking the path of least resistance and saying it must have been by design we can't make use of these anywhere but missions as a poor excuse for an absence of effort, creativity or game mechanics knowledge.
|
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
594
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:02:00 -
[6251] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.
Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.
Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s.
With bastion it's 3 slots, but I think with all that bastion provides, if you use an AAR, or maybe even just a large repper, you might very well be able to fit only 2 tank mods in your lows. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
594
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:05:00 -
[6252] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Vaju Enki wrote: There is no such thing as "PvE" in this game, and shootings ships is not the "PvP" part of the game. EvE is not split in half like the simplistic kindergarten themepark mmo-rpg games you play.
LMAO. No such thing? Aren't there? Let me tell you mister, you are incredibly confused. Taken directly from source: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/PvP" The term "PvP" stands for "Player vs. Player". PvP activities are a major feature of Eve Online. The term can be used to describe anything from ship to ship combat to market competition against your peers. In most cases, however, the term is used to refer to ship to ship combat between players, either individually, or in groups. For some players, PvP combat is the primary reason to play Eve Online. For others, it's simply one of many aspects of the game. Some players prefer to avoid, if possible, any involvement in PvP combat, preferring to focus on the "Player vs. Environment" (PvE) aspects of Eve Online. These players are sometimes referred to as "carebears". " So, with that confusion cleared up, yes, marauders were the ships of PvE, and yes, CCP is trying to make them viable PvP option. and when the environment functions identically to other players? what happens then? the categories you've pointed out are conceptual only they don't actually exist for ships in EvE only for the players using them. They only serve to differentiate one intention behind and action and another, no ship in EvE is forced only to fly in missions, or incursions or in PVP fleets or in wormhole anomalies, to say a ship is designed for a given mechanic exclusively is what's moronic. - ships may be better or worse than others at executing a certain task, but all ships are equally capable of making the attempt in some manner - it's just a question of the measures a player must take in order to make it possible. all you're pointing out here is pilots are taking the path of least resistance and saying it must have been by design we can't make use of these anywhere but missions as a poor excuse for an absence of effort, creativity or game mechanics knowledge.
It was actually CCP who said Marauders were focused specifically with PVE in mind when they designed them. They were actually given low sensor strength in order for them to be almost useless in pvp.
Now, with bastion, CCP is reverting from this, but they're still very much focused on pve, and as CCP has said, are very niche in pvp. |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:13:00 -
[6253] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
It was actually CCP who said Marauders were focused specifically with PVE in mind when they designed them. They were actually given low sensor strength in order for them to be almost useless in pvp.
Now, with bastion, CCP is reverting from this, but they're still very much focused on pve, and as CCP has said, are very niche in pvp.
yup, but that's not a limit saying "they are this kind of ship"
that they are battle ships imposes limits, they can't become cruisers for example
while designed with PVE in mind means better at situations that resemble a PVE scenario - one ship vs many weaker ones - doesn't mean cannot PVP, just means you must make adjustments that'll make them work for pvp - flying with another ship or fitting a sensor booster/PECCM, or only warping them in when there's no EWAR on the other side.
if it can kill a rat it can kill a player, it's just a question of when. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:21:00 -
[6254] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:
if it can kill a rat it can kill a player, it's just a question of when.
Untrue.
NPC ships act and fit nothing like us. This is why pve only players are so bad at fitting, flying and even adapting to changes. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:30:00 -
[6255] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.
Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.
Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s.
So u use a 3 low slot tank and miss out on a dda. Don't have EFT available atm but isn't a DDA like 85 ish dps @ all V with garde IIs? The vindi would still have its advantages in turret dps and the training reqs are lower |

Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:40:00 -
[6256] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Wedgetail wrote:
if it can kill a rat it can kill a player, it's just a question of when.
Untrue. NPC ships act and fit nothing like us. This is why pve only players are so bad at fitting, flying and even adapting to changes.
only some NPC's - and yes most PVE pilots fall into the trap of consistency, which was behind my remark about the path of least resistance, (if a fit works what reason is there to change it?) - incursion runners are the same, always fighting the same fight will lead to developing mental habits, following patterns so your brain doesn't have to work so hard.
to get these kinds of people to change their behavior requires a great deal of effort, their current methods have to be forced into breaking to 'motivate' them to make an adaptation, and even then most of them will wait for the minority to teach them how rather than work it out themselves. X) |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:42:00 -
[6257] - Quote
Oh Joe, you have to do this, don't you :P Ok here we go:
Joe Risalo wrote: What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster. With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster...
Killing targets from 100km away is not necessarily "completing faster". How would you say that?
With an arty fit, you will have killed between 2-4 targets, before waiting 14-16 seconds to get another shot. Before getting my Vargur, I've played with Maelstrom very long time, I can say each of my 1400mm could pop one frig. But, what if it misses? Recovery from missed shots on AC is much faster than waiting for a whole arty cycle.
Instead of sniping with an arty Vargur, I could simply go with sentry drone-fitted TFI, believe me, it will be even more faster at the same range and ROF and applied damage that Tech II drones has. Practically, not on the paper.
Joe Risalo wrote: You're not factoring the bigger picture here. Odds are you will run more than one bastion cycle before you are able to clear a room. I MJD out, Bastion, kill some stuff, MJD to gate, bastion, kill some stuff, and end bastion cycle while there are 2-3 ships left.
Two factors for me: - That bigger picture, I can already do with my drone sniper has no enjoyment for me. - By the time we both reach to the gate, I will have my hands covered with blood.
Joe Risalo wrote: Point is, even if we're able to get to the gate at the same time, I am doing so much more effectively in that i'm not losing out to tracking difficulties during this process.
I will give you credit here, but that effectiveness comes from less ammo you will spend for your arty shots. Nothing else.
There are no tracking difficulties for a AC Vargur pilot. I'm using AC first of all, second I will have tracking bonus coming from my Marauders skill and 2 TE's on my lows. I've been giving hell with my AC Vargur so far, and this point you're trying to argue is "virtual", nothing practical. At least, I've never experienced anything like this.
Quote: You clearly don't understand the facts I have been trying to argue here. This is a re-balance thread and I've been arguing something much different. I can fit an armor tanked Vargur, even though it is a ST, with no problem, but you see, it would be just writing something to fill spaces...
Ok, I'll give the full credit to you, I couldn't clarify myself even a bit :P When a talk start to turn into fitting changes, it generally goes out of concept, so far in a way that it nullifies the point of counter-argument of mjd bonus.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:45:00 -
[6258] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.
Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.
Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s. So u use a 3 low slot tank. Don't have EFT available atm but isn't a DDA like 85 ish dps @ all V with garde IIs? The vindi would still have its advantages in turret dps and the training reqs are lower
With your Idea I break 1700 dps before overheating on a blaster kronos. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:55:00 -
[6259] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.
Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.
Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s. So u use a 3 low slot tank. Don't have EFT available atm but isn't a DDA like 85 ish dps @ all V with garde IIs? The vindi would still have its advantages in turret dps and the training reqs are lower With your Idea I break 1700 dps before overheating on a blaster kronos.
Again, no EFT atm, quick battle clinic search shows a vindi with 1875 b4 overheating using 3 stabs
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
96
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:07:00 -
[6260] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.
havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode? ...if so that would be sad and should be changed as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps. As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use.
...and i tell you it will make a B I G difference in some pvp scenarios |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:11:00 -
[6261] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:
= Paladin vs Abaddon = Raw turret dps is equal. Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.
= Vargur vs Maelstrom = Raw turret dps is equal. Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50
In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.
How to implement: My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175
Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better
This is paper dps, though. With the Vargur / Maelstrom example, the Vargur has a falloff bonus that will increase it's applied dps when the Vargur and Maelstrom are on equal distance from target. With a standard 3xGyro 2x TE setup with 800mm AC and Faction EMP L falloff for the Vargur is 51 and 34 for the Maelstrom. DPS at 40km for the Vargur is around 550 while the Maelstrom is right at 300 DPS. The Vargur does the same 300 dps at 60km. This is before Bastion. Tracking on a moving target at any transversal is going to be higher on the Vargur as well. The dps is really only similar before 15km (50dps advantage for the Vargur at 10km). By 20km the Vargur is maintaining 100 dps advantage. This is before drones. Drone dps is going to be situational.
If you factor in 5x Hobgoblin on the Vargur and 4x Garde II on the Maelstrom, the Maelstrom is more dps (without factoring tracking) than the Vargur until 25km where they do the same dps, then the Vargur has pretty decent dps out to 60km where the difference is 400dps to the Vargur and 100 for the Maelstrom. It is pretty clear that both have uses and strengths and weaknesses. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:23:00 -
[6262] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
Again, no EFT atm, quick battle clinic search shows a vindi with 1875 b4 overheating using 3 stabs
That would be a shield fit vindi. They can be monsters but struggle in missions due to range. The new kronos has the range to play with. These ships are ment to be dishing out t1 BS firepower but with better damage application. Giving the kronos vindicator firepower with better damage application and better range is not a good thing to be doing. |

michaelthered
HexEstrella
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:24:00 -
[6263] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:michaelthered wrote:Not touching the marauders DPS makes this rebalance useless. Marauders should be on par with the pirate ships DPS wise without any sort of siege mode. With the bastion mode DPS should logically increase.. At the very least give boats like the Vargur an extra low slot and maybe another one goes active when bastion mode is enabled. And nerfing the resists even outside of bastion mode is terrible.
ps can we have a fleet issue maelstrom? They are on par with t1 battleships. They dont need more firepower to be viable.
But that's the point of going t2, more DPS etc, etc |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:25:00 -
[6264] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:
= Paladin vs Abaddon = Raw turret dps is equal. Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.
= Vargur vs Maelstrom = Raw turret dps is equal. Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50
In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.
How to implement: My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175
Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better This is paper dps, though. With the Vargur / Maelstrom example, the Vargur has a falloff bonus that will increase it's applied dps when the Vargur and Maelstrom are on equal distance from target. With a standard 3xGyro 2x TE setup with 800mm AC and Faction EMP L falloff for the Vargur is 51 and 34 for the Maelstrom. DPS at 40km for the Vargur is around 550 while the Maelstrom is right at 300 DPS. The Vargur does the same 300 dps at 60km. This is before Bastion. Tracking on a moving target at any transversal is going to be higher on the Vargur as well. The dps is really only similar before 15km (50dps advantage for the Vargur at 10km). By 20km the Vargur is maintaining 100 dps advantage. This is before drones. Drone dps is going to be situational. If you factor in 5x Hobgoblin on the Vargur and 4x Garde II on the Maelstrom, the Maelstrom is more dps (without factoring tracking) than the Vargur until 25km where they do the same dps, then the Vargur has pretty decent dps out to 60km where the difference is 400dps to the Vargur and 100 for the Maelstrom. It is pretty clear that both have uses and strengths and weaknesses. You are correct in what you are saying and I do not disagree. I argue that most other combat shops from t1 to t2 get application bonuses as well as raw dmg increases
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:29:00 -
[6265] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster. With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster...
Crap. Crap. Mega crap.
I actual flew 10 sites on sisi with arty vargur and ac vargur. Arty vargur is slower then active flying ab/ac vargur with close range use of bastion. MJD AC Vargur is slower too. Arty vargur only beats MJD AC Vargur.
Afterburner Vargur > Arty MJD Vargur > AC MJD Vargur
My Afterburner Vargur can't effort 2 tank slot fittings. it needs 1 booster and 2 specialized modules. But the attack range of under 20 km makes more dps then the boosted bastion ACs.
So in total i fly my vargur the same way as pre patch but at 3/5th of the speed. |

michaelthered
HexEstrella
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:29:00 -
[6266] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:[quote=MeBiatch] when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.
This^^^ |

michaelthered
HexEstrella
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:32:00 -
[6267] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:[quote=Tragedy][quote=baltec1][quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]
The kill showed he had 2x 1600 plates, eanm, and a damage control, which is a good sized buffer tank.
if that buffer tank had no logi support why are you even bringing it up? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:36:00 -
[6268] - Quote
michaelthered wrote:
But that's the point of going t2, more DPS etc, etc
Not everything t2 needs to be getting more raw dps. That said these ships do get better damage at longer ranges over their t1 counterparts. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:39:00 -
[6269] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:
and when the environment functions identically to other players? what happens then? the categories you've pointed out are conceptual only they don't actually exist for ships in EvE only for the players using them.
They only serve to differentiate one intention behind and action and another, no ship in EvE is forced only to fly in missions, or incursions or in PVP fleets or in wormhole anomalies, to say a ship is designed for a given mechanic exclusively is what's moronic.
- ships may be better or worse than others at executing a certain task, but all ships are equally capable of making the attempt in some manner - it's just a question of the measures a player must take in order to make it possible.
all you're pointing out here is pilots are taking the path of least resistance and saying it must have been by design we can't make use of these anywhere but missions as a poor excuse for an absence of effort, creativity or game mechanics knowledge.
First, change all "you've" with "eve wiki has". Next, I've been just replying a harsh statement like "no pve" / "no pvp" concept. There is, as wiki says and this can't be ignored. No matter how ppl deny this, designers always have to think about both concepts, otherwise this thread wouldn't be exist. (Giving pvp ability to a ship that was primarily designed for pve combat. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:44:00 -
[6270] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster. With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster... Crap. Crap. Mega crap. I actual flew 10 sites on sisi with arty vargur and ac vargur each. Arty vargur is slower then active flying ab/ac vargur with close range use of bastion. MJD AC Vargur is slower too. Arty vargur only beats MJD AC Vargur. Afterburner Vargur > Arty MJD Vargur > AC MJD Vargur My Afterburner Vargur can't effort 2 tank slot fittings. it needs 1 booster and 2 specialized modules. But the attack range of under 20 km makes more dps then the boosted bastion ACs. So in total i fly my vargur the same way as pre patch but at 3/5th of the speed.
This. Practically correct, at least from the Vargur point of view. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:45:00 -
[6271] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:michaelthered wrote:
But that's the point of going t2, more DPS etc, etc
Not everything t2 needs to be getting more raw dps. That said these ships do get better damage at longer ranges over their t1 counterparts.
Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.
The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations |

michaelthered
HexEstrella
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:47:00 -
[6272] - Quote
So they've killed the AC vargur then with this rebalance it sounds like. Meh. Then they're gonna nerf the Machariel here soon so 800mm AC's are going to die. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:52:00 -
[6273] - Quote
michaelthered wrote:So they've killed the AC vargur then with this rebalance it sounds like. Meh. Then they're gonna nerf the Machariel here soon so 800mm AC's are going to die.
Interesting, yet this sentence has some point in it. I would look from the bottom to top: "With this rebalance, they're creating a possibility of an arty Vargur, while not touching (re-balancing) BS sized AC's, so they'll become obsolete eventually"
Creating arty marauders while keeping AC's steady will not be called "re-balance" by AC marauder pilots. At least not with this iteration. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:56:00 -
[6274] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.
The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations
CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:59:00 -
[6275] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.
The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations
CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations.
Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance? |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:04:00 -
[6276] - Quote
michaelthered wrote:So they've killed the AC vargur then with this rebalance it sounds like. Meh. Then they're gonna nerf the Machariel here soon so 800mm AC's are going to die.
Nah i wouldn't say that. It's just Bastion, MJD and ACs do not work well without an additional AB. And then i can just ignore the MJD totally.
In pve its all about ISK/ hour OR ISK as close to AFKing as possible. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
781
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:06:00 -
[6277] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.
The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations
The Raven has 8 effective turrets with skills, alongside the Golem and RNI The Kronos is actually 10 to 9.33 of the Megathron.
Since we're talking about marauder capable pilots we should be including the skills they would obviously have |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:07:00 -
[6278] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.
The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations
CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations. Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance?
Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:14:00 -
[6279] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters.
OMG can't believe i am saying this, but he is right. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:20:00 -
[6280] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance? In terms of non-Bastion performance, a RNI will out-DPS and out-damage a Golem. The explosion radius bonus on the RNI is far superior for damage application than the explosion velocity bonus on the Golem, it can run three sentries (the 2 extra sentries add most of the extra DPS), sports three rig slots and can even run a fifth ballistic controller if so desired (+2% DPS). An afterburner and optional nanofiber also mean that you can tank some of the damage since it's the fastest Raven variant.
However, the term "performance" can and does differ - so opinions may vary. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:38:00 -
[6281] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:
= Paladin vs Abaddon = Raw turret dps is equal. Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.
= Vargur vs Maelstrom = Raw turret dps is equal. Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50
In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.
How to implement: My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175
Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better This is paper dps, though. With the Vargur / Maelstrom example, the Vargur has a falloff bonus that will increase it's applied dps when the Vargur and Maelstrom are on equal distance from target. With a standard 3xGyro 2x TE setup with 800mm AC and Faction EMP L falloff for the Vargur is 51 and 34 for the Maelstrom. DPS at 40km for the Vargur is around 550 while the Maelstrom is right at 300 DPS. The Vargur does the same 300 dps at 60km. This is before Bastion. Tracking on a moving target at any transversal is going to be higher on the Vargur as well. The dps is really only similar before 15km (50dps advantage for the Vargur at 10km). By 20km the Vargur is maintaining 100 dps advantage. This is before drones. Drone dps is going to be situational. If you factor in 5x Hobgoblin on the Vargur and 4x Garde II on the Maelstrom, the Maelstrom is more dps (without factoring tracking) than the Vargur until 25km where they do the same dps, then the Vargur has pretty decent dps out to 60km where the difference is 400dps to the Vargur and 100 for the Maelstrom. It is pretty clear that both have uses and strengths and weaknesses. You are correct in what you are saying and I do not disagree. I argue that most other combat ships from t1 to t2 get application bonuses as well as raw dmg increases
For some reason they do not want the mauraders to have increased dps over the t1/faction/pirates for the battleship class like the HAC's get in the cruiser line. I personally like the Arty Vargur on SiSi, it works well. The AC version doesn't feel as good as a Mach, but it definately works better than the AC Maelstrom. There aren't any anoms where I am in null to test out further. Belt rats give me a good indication though. The Tempest / TFI and Phloon Fleet are all lower in damage and application. The Phloon fleet can fit cruise missiles for better damage (cruise just rock), or RHML for increased damage to smaller targets +5x Sentry, but that isn't really a good comparison as it really depends on the fit as to how much or less effective the Phloon Fleet will be in a situation. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1357
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:46:00 -
[6282] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.
The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations
CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations. Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance? Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters.
Fast roaming gangs..did I just read that? Fast roaming battleships...LOL.
Wow, you really have to dig deep, don't you, for that one. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Roark BleedBlue
Minmatar Institute of Technology
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:47:00 -
[6283] - Quote
I just don't understand the need for this, other than "this takes less effort than making a new 'Bastion' ship"
Why take a PVE specialty ship, and cram it into PVP? If I want to PVE, I use a PVE ship. If I want to PVP, I use a PVP ship. Eve is about finding the sharpest knife for your expected situation. If I guess right on the circumstance, and make my ship/fit absolutely as close to perfect as I can for that situation...I have the advantage. If I guess wrong, I don't.
How about 'rebalancing' the Hulk to sorta be viable in incursions, at least on paper?
How about a module that makes it a little easier to dual active tank, armor and shield at the same time?
These suggestions are as ridiculous to this game as the Paladin 'Rebalance'
Why I really enjoy Eve, is that I'm rewarded/punished less on the basis of the amount of time I spend grinding...and I'm rewarded/punished more on the strength of my intelligence.
Pushing this ship into a dual role, on paper at least, will mostly damn it for either situation in reality.
For cheaper ships, multi-role possibilities are fine, as an economy option, because if you were trying to be top tier in whatever you're doing..you'd spend the isk to specialize. Marauders are too valuable to be this ambiguous in their usage.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:54:00 -
[6284] - Quote
Roark BleedBlue wrote:
Why take a PVE specialty ship, and cram it into PVP?
CCP do not want a combat ship that is terrible at pvp and large parts of pve. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:58:00 -
[6285] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Fast roaming gangs..did I just read that? Fast roaming battleships...LOL.
Wow, you really have to dig deep, don't you, for that one.
I take these out on frigate roams and keep up. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 21:40:00 -
[6286] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Fast roaming gangs..did I just read that? Fast roaming battleships...LOL.
Wow, you really have to dig deep, don't you, for that one.
I take these out on frigate roams and keep up.
its true its all he flies is mega's
though after rubicon... he might have to change that as the mega will slow down the gang.
perhaps he can go for a rifter... that looks like a baby mega... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
595
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:23:00 -
[6287] - Quote
So much crying...
"It will suck at incursions" Well, get two ships.. One for fleet pve, and use these for solo pve where they will outperform just about anything else.
"It sucks with short range guns" They've always been outperformed with short range guns. Vindi beats Kronos RNI beats Golem Mach beats Vargur Bhaalgorn beats Paladin Nightmare used to out snip Paladin
Now these ships are the best performing long range BS's in the game.
"Over tanking is a waist" Well, when it actually requires less slots than a standard tank on these ships, how is it a loss. We can fit more damage/application/utility mods then we used to be able to. Over tanking simply means they're capable of doing more now than they used to.
"They have no mobility, thus will die" Really? They were never that mobile before, yet apparently this wasn't a problem then? You stack that on top of their existing sig radius, and even if you were moving, you still got hammered. The only thing you have to worry about now is getting dread blopped, and lets face it, you shouldn't have used them in a possible dread fight anyway.
"They're unusable in pvp" Flat out lie.. As they are on live, the only time they really see a decent amount of pvp is during the alliance tournament. Due to their size and lacking mobility on live, you're guaranteed dead without plenty of logistics support.
With bastion, you'll have damn near the local tank that logistics could provide, if not better, and with more resists.
The major issue with this argument is that they're such an expensive ship, most people won't fly them in pvp anyway. You factor their current price and lackluster capabilities on live, they're nothing more than a floating penata.
"They don't have web bonuses, and suck without it" Uhh, apparently everyone seems to forget about range. You can MJD with these ships every minute. If targets are getting close enough to break traversal, then you're doing it wrong. You don't need a web with long range guns. I currently fly a nightmare on live WITHOUT WEBS. If it was such a big issue, everyone would complain. I use t2 tachs with navy ammo and blast pretty much everything before it comes close. The only time I have problems tracking something is when they get under my guns, and it's never anything but a frig, which my drones dispatch pretty quickly... If your drones are dieing, then you need to LTP anyway.
All these complaints are nothing but refusal to change despite their current lack of usability to begin with. If you can't see how everyone of these questions is negated with the current iteration, then you are either very lacking in vision, or suck too bad to see the capabilities.
Everyone of these issues is a non-factor if you're using the ship as intended. Long range guns, bastion, MJD. Working as intended.. LTP.. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:30:00 -
[6288] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:So much crying...
Don't speak about PvP. If your Account is your main please just don't |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:36:00 -
[6289] - Quote
sry in advance about the sizable post, got home from work and saw a bunch of replies so imma try to address them all at once xD.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: The Raven has 8 effective turrets with skills, alongside the Golem and RNI The Kronos is actually 10 to 9.33 of the Megathron.
Since we're talking about marauder capable pilots we should be including the skills they would obviously have
fair enough, compared to the current iteration, Raven and megathron can achieve higher raw dps than their marauders. (mega via the extra low)
baltec1 wrote:Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters. you honestly took me by surpise there, and even though there are subjective parts to this and given the shift from PvE to PvP, on paper it looks correct. So I must say: Well played sir! xD
However, your point does support my original argument about a dmg increase for marauders. generally, through gallente combat ship lines, the t2 version gets slower max speed + better raw damage. The unqiue part about the gallente t1s is traditionally the max speed, why a sudden shift to max dmg, align, and dronebay?
TheFace Asano wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: ... My suggestion for band/bay: Paladin 100/ 150 Golem 100/150 Kronos 125/200 Vargur 125/ 175 ...
For some reason they do not want the mauraders to have increased dps over the t1/faction/pirates for the battleship class like the HAC's get in the cruiser line. ...
Agreed, but the above suggestion, with the exception of the nightmare/paladin, should not allow the marauders to meet or surpass the pirates in raw dps. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
595
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:45:00 -
[6290] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:So much crying... Don't speak about PvP. If your Account is your main please just don't
Not my main |
|

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
249
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:04:00 -
[6291] - Quote
Is it possible to rebalance the Golem model a bit?
When I first saw the new design I was horrified, something about the look of the ship really bothered me but I could not figure out and pin point exactly what it was. Then I downloaded the model and started to play around and change the proportions.
I think the wings are too short, they make the ship look tiny, like a toy.
Here are a few screenshots of modification I made, while I am not suggesting that this is how the ship should look I would like you to at least consider adjusting the wings, maybe by posting these I hope to bring the proportions issue to the modeling team who are working on the new design. Again these are just suggestions and I am not at all an expert in ship design, but just as an artist the new proportions look odd.
Thanks for reading this and here are the images:
Alternate Version 1
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#0 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#1 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#2 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#3 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#4 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#5 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#6 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#7
Alternate Version 2
http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#0 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#1 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#2 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#3 |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:33:00 -
[6292] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:Is it possible to rebalance the Golem model a bit? When I first saw the new design I was horrified, something about the look of the ship really bothered me but I could not figure out and pin point exactly what it was. Then I downloaded the model and started to play around and change the proportions. I think the wings are too short, they make the ship look tiny, like a toy. Here are a few screenshots of modification I made, while I am not suggesting that this is how the ship should look I would like you to at least consider adjusting the wings, maybe by posting these I hope to bring the proportions issue to the modeling team who are working on the new design. Again these are just suggestions and I am not at all an expert in ship design, but just as an artist the new proportions look odd. Thanks for reading this and here are the images: Alternate Version 1 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZVhttp://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#0http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#1http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#2http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#3http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#4http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#5http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#6http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#7Alternate Version 2 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#0http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#1http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#2http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#3 How'd you downloaded the model? Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
255
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:49:00 -
[6293] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:How'd you downloaded the model?
The model was downloaded from Singularity. It's live on the singularity servers.
You have to also download the latest version of triexporter which allows you to extract the game models and textures used. See this thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3743611#post3743611 |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:12:00 -
[6294] - Quote
IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
353
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:14:00 -
[6295] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. Most faction ships will outperform them there as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
596
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:26:00 -
[6296] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:Is it possible to rebalance the Golem model a bit? When I first saw the new design I was horrified, something about the look of the ship really bothered me but I could not figure out and pin point exactly what it was. Then I downloaded the model and started to play around and change the proportions. I think the wings are too short, they make the ship look tiny, like a toy. Here are a few screenshots of modification I made, while I am not suggesting that this is how the ship should look I would like you to at least consider adjusting the wings, maybe by posting these I hope to bring the proportions issue to the modeling team who are working on the new design. Again these are just suggestions and I am not at all an expert in ship design, but just as an artist the new proportions look odd. Thanks for reading this and here are the images: Alternate Version 1 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZVhttp://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#0http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#1http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#2http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#3http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#4http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#5http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#6http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#7Alternate Version 2 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#0http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#1http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#2http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#3
I like your first model...
Looks awesome... CCP... Do that...
Looks mean and I think it would make bastion stand out more, or give you more to work with for bastion |

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
256
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:28:00 -
[6297] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. Most Faction battleships will outperform Marauders on L4s as well.
It's a cost vs performance issue though. The main reason to use a marauder is that it literally cuts your ISK spending in half, at least for the golem. Since you get similar DPS to an RNI,maybe slightly lower, but overall your mission running is pretty much identicalin terms of time spent, only you are spending 50% less on ammo costs AND it leaves three high slots open for salvage and tractor beams. Fit salvage drones and you can clean up as you kill = more profitable overall. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
596
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:29:00 -
[6298] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. Most Faction battleships will outperform Marauders on L4s as well.
You guys are just flat out lieing, or haven't tested it.
The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown.
I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it.
Edit... I would put a bastion/MJD long range marauder against any other ship in game, on any mission and I'll guarantee faster or equal completion times. The problem is I don't care enough about how you feel to actually test it myself |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:33:00 -
[6299] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. Most Faction battleships will outperform Marauders on L4s as well. You guys are just flat out lieing, or haven't tested it. The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown. I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it.
A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
424
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:35:00 -
[6300] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:Is it possible to rebalance the Golem model a bit? When I first saw the new design I was horrified, something about the look of the ship really bothered me but I could not figure out and pin point exactly what it was. Then I downloaded the model and started to play around and change the proportions. I think the wings are too short, they make the ship look tiny, like a toy. Here are a few screenshots of modification I made, while I am not suggesting that this is how the ship should look I would like you to at least consider adjusting the wings, maybe by posting these I hope to bring the proportions issue to the modeling team who are working on the new design. Again these are just suggestions and I am not at all an expert in ship design, but just as an artist the new proportions look odd. Thanks for reading this and here are the images: Alternate Version 1 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZVhttp://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#0http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#1http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#2http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#3http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#4http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#5http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#6http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#7Alternate Version 2 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#0http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#1http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#2http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#3
I really, really like the version with the upside-down wings there- I'd definitely fly that. It's a unique looking hull design, for sure, but it gives off more of an 'attack battleship' vibe than what the Marauder changes are intending to bring. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
596
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:40:00 -
[6301] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. Most Faction battleships will outperform Marauders on L4s as well. You guys are just flat out lieing, or haven't tested it. The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown. I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it. A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo.
I have been flying a nightmare for the past year. It certainly doesn't perform anywhere near as good as a bastion golem. I haven't flown the other marauders, but I'm certain they can all outperform with bastion and long range as well. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:53:00 -
[6302] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:IMO the Bastion module is an answer looking for a question; Marauders will be useless for everything except level 4 missions, and most pirate battleships will outperform them there too. Most Faction battleships will outperform Marauders on L4s as well. You guys are just flat out lieing, or haven't tested it. The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown. I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it. A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. I have been flying a nightmare for the past year. It certainly doesn't perform anywhere near as good as a bastion golem. I haven't flown the other marauders, but I'm certain they can all outperform with bastion and long range as well.
Nope, if you're going to snipe and not salvage, many ships outperform sniping marauders. Try just using a plain old Dominix, or Rattlesnake, Fleet Typhoon or Navy Apoc with 5 sentries. All have similar (or more) dps at similar ranges, mainly because MJD sniping just favors sentry drones. Tank is irrelevant because they can all tank just fine at sniping range. You only get a MJD cooldown reduction that is highly underutlized and the e-war immunity. Hell, a RNI will outperform your Golem in the exact same sniping role.
I'm content with the 3rd iteration, but really to say that a sniping marauder outperforms everything is just flat out wrong. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:56:00 -
[6303] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:You guys are just flat out lying, or haven't tested it. The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown.
I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it.
I would put a bastion/MJD long range marauder against any other ship in game, on any mission and I'll guarantee faster or equal completion times. The problem is I don't care enough about how you feel to actually test it myself I'm not lying, and I haven't tested it (full disclosure). But since I run an insane amount of L4s, I can tell you flat out that the RNI I use will easily outperform the Golem - and it's not just because of the DPS from the two extra Sentry drones. With three rigors and the explosion radius bonus on the RNI I'm hitting for under 100m - which means I'm doing almost full damage to cruisers without the need for target painters. Also, because the RNI sports 8 launchers I take less of a DPS loss from NPC defender missiles. Not only that, but I can pre-load a wider assortment of ammo because I have twice the launchers.
Sure, the Golem will definitely out tank a RNI - to be certain. But since my effective combat range is 100km and I tank most of the damage with an orbit/afterburner, I don't really need much. The Golem is stationary, so if it has to activate its tank there's a good chance it needs all of it and more. The Golem will also out-salvage my RNI, but again - I'm not using my RNI for salvage.
I could also point out that for the price and training required to run a Golem, I could run two nicely fit Ravens with a RHML setup that would literally run circles around the Golem in an L4. Golems have less passive tank, so it also makes them a more expensive gank target. I know you don't care, I don't really care for the Golem (the third iteration is definitely the best of the mix, but still falls short of what it could've potentially been) - but since you took the time to reply I did the same.
Don't like it (Golem), won't use it (Golem). Plus I hate the color.
Dorororo wrote:I'm content with the 3rd iteration, but really to say that a sniping marauder outperforms everything is just flat out wrong. ^^ This guy gets it.
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. ^^ Also gets it. And the Nightmare isn't even a Machariel or Vindicator, either. This isn't to say Marauders suck. Maybe they're well-suited for a different aspect of gameplay (such as L5s). But L4s, Marauders are the low hanging fruit. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Neumanola
Lords of the horde
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 08:43:00 -
[6304] - Quote
Just one thing, let me get this straight. With the increased falloff bonus for the Kronos, added to the range buffs that come with the bastion module ----> Won't this make the kronos more viable with blasters instead of rails, meaning ALOT more DPS, and tracking? Sounds like a great pve buff to me. Is there something I've missed?
Go easy on me though... I'm fragile. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8301
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 09:03:00 -
[6305] - Quote
Neumanola wrote:Just one thing, let me get this straight. With the increased falloff bonus for the Kronos, added to the range buffs that come with the bastion module ----> Won't this make the kronos more viable with blasters instead of rails, meaning ALOT more DPS, and tracking? Sounds like a great pve buff to me. Is there something I've missed?
Go easy on me though... I'm fragile.
You can now park in some anoms and have your blasters hit everything. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 09:59:00 -
[6306] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:You guys are just flat out lieing, or haven't tested it.
The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown.
I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it.
Edit... I would put a bastion/MJD long range marauder against any other ship in game, on any mission and I'll guarantee faster or equal completion times. The problem is I don't care enough about how you feel to actually test it myself
No we are not, c'mon mummy tell this guy i tell the truth...
AAAHHH. Of course it is from our point of view and from our experience. I can fly t2 arties, t2 acs, t2 torps, t2 cruise and t2 blaster. so i tested blaster kronos, and all golem vargur variations.
every sniper variation plays itself easily, (problem with the tartgeting range, i needed a t1 targeting rig on vargur to be able to use mjd without losing targets). You jump away, bastion on, pew pew pew, jump back.
It is totally relaxed but it is soooooo slow. The cruise golem performs very good, i have to admit that, but the torp golem, omg! After such a long time, the golem still is the only viable ship for pve torps and it performs so bad.
so my rating with all of them for isk/hour.
AC/AB Vargur = Blaster kronos (only with certain npc) = Cruise golem > blaster Kronos (sanshas) > arty mjd vargur > torp golem
i never flew a torp golem with dead space AB but the torp fitting is cpu/pg wise at the biggest limit. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
96
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 10:24:00 -
[6307] - Quote
the new Golem's "wings" are horrible while i like the new cocpit/mid section |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:01:00 -
[6308] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:but the torp golem, omg! i never flew a torp golem with dead space AB but the torp fitting is cpu/pg wise at the biggest limit. Even Officer torpedo launchers won't save the Golem. Torpedoes are a lost cause until they buff the speed and damage.
Brib Vogt wrote:i don't comprehend the defender mechanics in this game, but i guess both golems could need a bonus on missile viability. like 200%damage resist against defender missiles. ah, maybe i just don't understand it Half the launchers, so NPC defender missiles are twice as effective. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:10:00 -
[6309] - Quote
Here's an idea: Give each Marauder two (2) additional launchers -or- two (2) additional turrets (not both), just to give Marauders a bit of anti-frigate/cruiser capability. Since they'd be light or medium weapons, they won't receive any of the hull bonuses, with any DPS increase being a bare minimum. As far as that goes, if we're talking light weapons here - why not give them four (4) additional launchers or turrets.
If need be, increase the grid and CPU cost of Bastion to prevent abuse (I haven't played around with the Marauder fits, so maybe it's extremely tight for grid and CPU already; I don't think you could run any additional large turrets or launchers even with an ancillary rig - possibly a pair of mediums or a quad stack of lights, but that's probably it).
It would make these a bit more interesting for PvP. And these are supposed to be the end-all/be-all of battleships. Thoughts? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:21:00 -
[6310] - Quote
Dorororo wrote: Nope, if you're going to snipe and not salvage, many ships outperform sniping marauders. Try just using a plain old Dominix, or Rattlesnake, Fleet Typhoon or Navy Apoc with 5 sentries. All have similar (or more) dps at similar ranges, mainly because MJD sniping just favors sentry drones. Tank is irrelevant because they can all tank just fine at sniping range. You only get a MJD cooldown reduction that is highly underutlized and the e-war immunity. Hell, a RNI will outperform your Golem in the exact same sniping role.
I'm content with the 3rd iteration, but really to say that a sniping marauder outperforms everything is just flat out wrong.
Exactly this. That was why I called this change looks like a domi with the proposed mjd bonus. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:41:00 -
[6311] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:You guys are just flat out lying, or haven't tested it. The test golem performs way better than anything I have flown.
I don't think y'all are even giving it an opportunity because it doesn't suit your agenda/play style. If you don't like it, don't use it.
I would put a bastion/MJD long range marauder against any other ship in game, on any mission and I'll guarantee faster or equal completion times. The problem is I don't care enough about how you feel to actually test it myself I'm not lying, and I haven't tested it (full disclosure). But since I run an insane amount of L4s, I can tell you flat out that the RNI I use will easily outperform the Golem - and it's not just because of the DPS from the two extra Sentry drones. With three rigors and the explosion radius bonus on the RNI I'm hitting for under 100m - which means I'm doing almost full damage to cruisers without the need for target painters. Also, because the RNI sports 8 launchers I take less of a DPS loss from NPC defender missiles. Not only that, but I can pre-load a wider assortment of ammo because I have twice the launchers. Sure, the Golem will definitely out tank a RNI - to be certain. But since my effective combat range is 100km and I tank most of the damage with an orbit/afterburner, I don't really need much. The Golem is stationary, so if it has to activate its tank there's a good chance it needs all of it and more. The Golem will also out-salvage my RNI, but again - I'm not using my RNI for salvage. I could also point out that for the price and training required to run a Golem, I could run two nicely fit Ravens with a RHML setup that would literally run circles around the Golem in an L4. Golems have less passive tank, so it also makes them a more expensive gank target. I know you don't care, I don't really care for the Golem (the third iteration is definitely the best of the mix, but still falls short of what it could've potentially been) - but since you took the time to reply I did the same. Don't like it (Golem), won't use it (Golem). Plus I hate the color. Dorororo wrote:I'm content with the 3rd iteration, but really to say that a sniping marauder outperforms everything is just flat out wrong. ^^ This guy gets it. Nefra Ravenheart wrote:A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. ^^ Also gets it. And the Nightmare isn't even a Machariel or Vindicator, either. This isn't to say Marauders suck. Maybe they're well-suited for a different aspect of gameplay (such as L5s). But L4s, Marauders are the low hanging fruit. cyndrogen wrote:It's a cost vs performance issue though. The main reason to use a marauder is that it literally cuts your ISK spending in half, at least for the golem. Since you get similar DPS to an RNI,maybe slightly lower, but overall your mission running is pretty much identicalin terms of time spent, only you are spending 50% less on ammo costs AND it leaves three high slots open for salvage and tractor beams. Fit salvage drones and you can clean up as you kill = more profitable overall. Well, I can run a Raven for 1/8th the cost of a Golem and a fraction of the SP requirements. That's a lot of free ammo. Sure, Marauders can salvage - but they're dreadfully slow at getting around - and nothing outperforms a Noctis. Again, not saying Marauders suck - just not for me (and I suspect a lot of players).
The new golem is almost the same as the TQ golem. Only difference is it got a small speed nerf but i think the scan resolution has been increased by alot so it evens out. The bastion module is just a extra bonus. you dont have to use it if you dont like it. Also, why would we want the marauder to be the BEST at everything? what is the fun in that if they made it OP then everyone will use it. I think right now it is perfect since we have people who love it and others who hate it. I dont want to log into eve one day and see everyone in a marauder for making isk .
Also for RNI vs golem, the exp radius bonus is alot better in golem with bonus TP then navy raven with 3 rigor plus ship bonus. Also , the biggest lost to dps in a missile boat is velocity of the target. When you shoot cruises at a 250m/s battleship you lose 3/4 of the dps or so. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
548
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:08:00 -
[6312] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. I doubt that, or I just don't run same missions you do. Optimal bonus really helps, including helping with hitting out to ranges where Nightmare's tracking bonus is less useful. You may be right though, so you could join the discussion here and point out stuff that is wrong with reasoning. Tbh lasers isn't the weapon system that makes you count your shots as much as ACs or CMLs. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
597
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:36:00 -
[6313] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:Is it possible to rebalance the Golem model a bit? When I first saw the new design I was horrified, something about the look of the ship really bothered me but I could not figure out and pin point exactly what it was. Then I downloaded the model and started to play around and change the proportions. I think the wings are too short, they make the ship look tiny, like a toy. Here are a few screenshots of modification I made, while I am not suggesting that this is how the ship should look I would like you to at least consider adjusting the wings, maybe by posting these I hope to bring the proportions issue to the modeling team who are working on the new design. Again these are just suggestions and I am not at all an expert in ship design, but just as an artist the new proportions look odd. Thanks for reading this and here are the images: Alternate Version 1 http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZVhttp://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#0http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#1http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#2http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#3http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#4http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#5http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#6http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#7Alternate Version 2 http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#0http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#1http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#2http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#3
Quoting cause the first design NEEDS to happen. It's awesome
|

Arcosian
Arco's Advanced Industries
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:21:00 -
[6314] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. I doubt that, or I just don't run same missions you do. Optimal bonus really helps, including helping with hitting out to ranges where Nightmare's tracking bonus is less useful. You may be right though, so you could join the discussion here and point out stuff that is wrong with reasoning. Tbh lasers isn't the weapon system that makes you count your shots as much as ACs or CMLs. As of right now the nightmare and paladin are almost identical on TQ. The only differences are that the nightmare has better tracking than the paladin and does a little bit more DPS but it's nothing that you would really notice unless you ran a few hundred missions and had marauders 5.
After Rubicon a Tach fit NM will still have better tracking than a tach fit paladin (with tracking scripts on both ships) while the paladin will have about 100 more gun DPS and better range (~10km difference in optimals using INMF). If you use range scripts the NM still has better tracking and there's a difference of about 20km in optimals but with each ship having optimal ranges of 40+km there really isn't a range issue on either ship. So it will really just depend on the type of PVE you are running as to which is best to use.
For pulse fits the differences are more apparent. Using scorch, the NM will have much better tracking with 60km optimal while the paladin will have 90km optimal (using range scripts) with DPS differences of about 50 DPS. Using tracking scripts the NM still has better tracking but reduces to 50km optimal while paladin is at 71km.
This is of course without using bastion since all it does is extend range and neither the NM or paladin have range issues. And it also doesn't take into account drone DPS since in my experience when you dish out 1000+ DPS you rarely need to use drones. Both ships will run PVE content just fine before and after rubicon it is just a matter of choosing which one is best based on the skills you have. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:40:00 -
[6315] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Here's an idea: Give each Marauder two (2) additional launchers -or- two (2) additional turrets (not both), just to give Marauders a bit of anti-frigate/cruiser capability. Since they'd be light or medium weapons, they won't receive any of the hull bonuses, with any DPS increase being a bare minimum. As far as that goes, if we're talking light weapons here - why not give them four (4) additional launchers or turrets.
If need be, increase the grid and CPU cost of Bastion to prevent abuse (I haven't played around with the Marauder fits, so maybe it's extremely tight for grid and CPU already; I don't think you could run any additional large turrets or launchers even with an ancillary rig - possibly a pair of mediums or a quad stack of lights, but that's probably it). In theory I guess you could possibly get away with a fifth large launcher or turret, but I imagine you'd sacrifice your rigs, a low slot and a lot of tank for the extra DPS. That's not necessarily a bad trade-off, and it does make Marauder configurations a bit more of a wildcard (you'd probably have to drop the MJD to pull it off).
It would make these a bit more interesting for PvP (and with the ability to fend off small ships, I can actually see Marauders venturing out of high-sec). Marauders are supposed to be the end-all/be-all of battleships: Tank, glass cannon or anti-ship - a few interesting possibilities with unique roles. Thoughts?
Although those are good ideas, I feel like that would break the game. Paladins are the most powerful (gun only) long range DPS (I can pull 1100 with Spec 4 Tachyons and INMF). However, the fifth turret would be helpful especially for the Kronos and the Vargur (again, I know little about missiles, so no idea about the Golem).
Something that needs clarification though, and this goes for CCP as well.
Quote:A Marauder is the one that attacks or kills in search of booty or loot or a reward.
Marauder battleships should fulfill that roll, or be renamed. A powerful ship that is able to loot. As it is now, it kinda does, with the tractor and salvagers, but it is far from the best, since the introduction of the Noctis. As for the attack bit, pirate hulls tend to overpower the current marauders. To make it simpler. Our marauders are worse marauding than a high-damage battleship + Noctis. Marauders should excel at marauding, that means going in, killing stuff quickly and efficiently and looting, all in one go.
My point is that marauders should excel at the attack for loot bit, after all, that's what they do. Should attack be increased on the Vargur? Yeah, it lacks lots of it, 880 dps with 1400s seems poor. But we can't ask for the end-all be-all battleship. It's specialization role is being a Marauder, killing and looting, not a pure combat ship, Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Saul Alastar
Aideron Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:03:00 -
[6316] - Quote
EVE Online The Rubicon changes to Maunders is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in EVE. Take the paladin for example. You are taking a perfectly good CQC-Mid Range BS and turing it into a glorified long range sentry turret. CCP wtf are you thinking? This makes the Paladin WORSE for PvE.
Now I feel like I just WASTED all those months of training just so I can fly the damn thing in incursion and now its only good for assualts and higher. Thanks CCP, I'd like that wasted time back if you are going to be this r e t a r d e d about your "balancing". |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1358
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:10:00 -
[6317] - Quote
Arcosian wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo. I doubt that, or I just don't run same missions you do. Optimal bonus really helps, including helping with hitting out to ranges where Nightmare's tracking bonus is less useful. You may be right though, so you could join the discussion here and point out stuff that is wrong with reasoning. Tbh lasers isn't the weapon system that makes you count your shots as much as ACs or CMLs. As of right now the nightmare and paladin are almost identical on TQ. The only differences are that the nightmare has better tracking than the paladin and does a little bit more DPS but it's nothing that you would really notice unless you ran a few hundred missions and had marauders 5. After Rubicon a Tach fit NM will still have better tracking than a tach fit paladin (with tracking scripts on both ships) while the paladin will have about 100 more gun DPS and better range (~10km difference in optimals using INMF). If you use range scripts the NM still has better tracking and there's a difference of about 20km in optimals but with each ship having optimal ranges of 40+km there really isn't a range issue on either ship. So it will really just depend on the type of PVE you are running as to which is best to use. For pulse fits the differences are more apparent. Using scorch, the NM will have much better tracking with 60km optimal while the paladin will have 90km optimal (using range scripts) with DPS differences of about 50 DPS. Using tracking scripts the NM still has better tracking but reduces to 50km optimal while paladin is at 71km. This is of course without using bastion since all it does is extend range and neither the NM or paladin have range issues. And it also doesn't take into account drone DPS since in my experience when you dish out 1000+ DPS you rarely need to use drones. Both ships will run PVE content just fine before and after rubicon it is just a matter of choosing which one is best based on the skills you have.
My group flies Paladin's doing bare minimum of 1300 DPS, maxed out at 1560 DPS with implants, using Conflag, or MF, most of the time when the rats get close and we need tracking. We absolutely need webs to be successful. MjDing away to shoot stuff at long range is a nerf in our effective DPS.
There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie. The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1401
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:33:00 -
[6318] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: My group flies Paladin's doing bare minimum of 1300 DPS, maxed out at 1560 DPS with implants, using Conflag, or MF, most of the time when the rats get close and we need tracking. We absolutely need webs to be successful. MjDing away to shoot stuff at long range is a nerf in our effective DPS.
There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie. The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin.
I understand that your niche way of using the ships is getting a direct nerf due to dps loss...
but honestly PVE is more then just incursions... maraduers are not designed to be exclusive to Incursions so why would you assume CCP would design the ship to be best at them?
The ship is supposed to be best all round PVE ship that means ratting doing 10/10 plexes and so on with also includes but not exclusive incursions.
personally i am stocked cuss i am going to use my rail kronos as my new 10/10 complex ship.
Furthermore From what i Understand Incusions give stupid amounts of ISK... a little reduction in efficiancy and thus isk/hour is not a bad thing IMO.
Curious though which ship are you guys chaging to? vindicators?
why not go half vindicators and half palis? that way you can still have 90% webbs? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:42:00 -
[6319] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Although those are good ideas, I feel like that would break the game. Paladins are the most powerful (gun only) long range DPS (I can pull 1100 with Spec 4 Tachyons and INMF). However, the fifth turret would be helpful especially for the Kronos and the Vargur (again, I know little about missiles, so no idea about the Golem). Possibly. But as it now stands these ships fail in their designation as 'Marauders', since they rely on external fleet support. Combined with the changes to warp speed, Marauders are sitting ducks outside of high-sec. .....
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie. The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin. I've come around to see your reasoning. Can we just re-implement the +7.5% stasis web/level and add it to the Marauder roll bonus? (lose the tractor range bonus if need be) It's a fair compromise because you'll need Marauders-V to receive maximum benefit, and then Marauders can also work in short-range fits. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:18:00 -
[6320] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Something that needs clarification though, and this goes for CCP as well. Quote:A Marauder is the one that attacks or kills in search of booty or loot or a reward. Marauder battleships should fulfill that roll, or be renamed. A powerful ship that is able to loot. As it is now, it kinda does, with the tractor and salvagers, but it is far from the best, since the introduction of the Noctis. As for the attack bit, pirate hulls tend to overpower the current marauders. To make it simpler. Our marauders are worse marauding than a high-damage battleship + Noctis. Marauders should excel at marauding, that means going in, killing stuff quickly and efficiently and looting, all in one go. My point is that marauders should excel at the attack for loot bit, after all, that's what they do. Should attack be increased on the Vargur? Yeah, it lacks lots of it, 880 dps with 1400s seems poor. But we can't ask for the end-all be-all battleship. It's specialization role is being a Marauder, killing and looting, not a pure combat ship,
They can salvage, they can fit two tractor beams and a salvager plus the bastion due to the added extra high slot. Or fit three tractor beams and use salvage drones. Pirate+noctis eigher requires to go back to the (mission) site or it requires you to have and maintain an another character to maximize efficiency.
Having these exact advanages on one ship, one character... much don't you think? |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:28:00 -
[6321] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:They can salvage, they can fit two tractor beams and a salvager plus the bastion due to the added extra high slot. Or fit three tractor beams and use salvage drones. Pirate+noctis eigher requires to go back to the (mission) site or it requires you to have and maintain an another character to maximize efficiency.
Having these exact advanages on one ship, one character... much don't you think? The most powerful battleship in the game... relegated to salvage duty.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
598
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:29:00 -
[6322] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:Serge SC wrote:Something that needs clarification though, and this goes for CCP as well. Quote:A Marauder is the one that attacks or kills in search of booty or loot or a reward. Marauder battleships should fulfill that roll, or be renamed. A powerful ship that is able to loot. As it is now, it kinda does, with the tractor and salvagers, but it is far from the best, since the introduction of the Noctis. As for the attack bit, pirate hulls tend to overpower the current marauders. To make it simpler. Our marauders are worse marauding than a high-damage battleship + Noctis. Marauders should excel at marauding, that means going in, killing stuff quickly and efficiently and looting, all in one go. My point is that marauders should excel at the attack for loot bit, after all, that's what they do. Should attack be increased on the Vargur? Yeah, it lacks lots of it, 880 dps with 1400s seems poor. But we can't ask for the end-all be-all battleship. It's specialization role is being a Marauder, killing and looting, not a pure combat ship, They can salvage, they can fit two tractor beams and a salvager plus the bastion due to the added extra high slot. Or fit three tractor beams and use salvage drones. Pirate+noctis eigher requires to go back to the (mission) site or it requires you to have and maintain an another character to maximize efficiency. Having these exact advanages on one ship, one character... much don't you think?
Actually, the easy thing to do is bookmark each room in a mission. Fly back, turn in the mission, then come out an warp to the wrecks without having to fly through warp gates and the mission site.
Also, since Marauders can clear missions pretty fast, you can clear and bookmark 3 or 4 missions, then come back and salvage them all with the noctis... It's the way I do it... Much faster than a 40 km tractor and unbonused salvager/s |

Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
157
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:41:00 -
[6323] - Quote
For incursions I think the Marauders allow some nice and new tactics. Spreading of the ships will be needed as well as NOSses as a sort of alternative energy transfer that works in bastion.
Also, maybe, just maybe, for an incursion Paladin, 2 megapulse + 2 tachyons might be optimal If you spread your fleet around. Every ship will be able to snipe, will be able to hit ships orbiting someone else and not be totally useless if they orbit you. Some dps/distance graphs might need to be drawn but there might be something in it.
For the rest, I'ld like to say these iterations are shaping up nicely. The only changes I'ld like to see are:
- swap Paladin cap bonus with its dps bonus: all other marauders have their dps bonus on the battleship skill
- increase tractor beam range to beyond 50k: this way, any can will always be in reach when mjd-ing around.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:52:00 -
[6324] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:The most powerful battleship in the game... relegated to salvage duty.  'Powerful' is an odd description.
You could add 5 sentry drones to both the kronos and vargur and they still would not reach the dps potential of their pirate alternatives.
IMO I think sentry drones would be a nice addition. Pirates would still have their place. The golem / rattlesnake relationship would be a little cooler IMO: both are drones + missiles but the golem does better with missiles and application while the rattlesnake has better drone dmg and max dps potential.
Sentry drones work well with bastion mode.
PvE marauders would have more decisions about fits: * Long range boats might drop tractors for additional links bc of tractor range * short range boats might take links, rr, tractor, salvagers, or a mix * might hand off tractor duty to the looting structure to salvage or enhance drones. * extra slots saved by bastion could support drones when reaching stacking limits on TCs or Wep upgrades.
|

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:24:00 -
[6325] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:Octoven wrote:
Actually the new marauders are now exclusively for PVP so Id rather not deal with it...just scrap the ship and advise no one to buy one.
You should officer fit your T1 battleship hull for PVE then. It will be even more viable. Now you can save isk on that pesky hull!
have you ever got or flown or undock even (or even dare to train for) t2 battleships? to have some pvp fun??? or just fly around with noobships and shuttles? (SiSi does not count)
if you want "bastion"ed pvp oriented t2 battleship, there are black ops (twin sisters of marauders), waiting for " being rebalanced" by CCP masterminds.. why dont you ask for it instead.. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8302
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:38:00 -
[6326] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:The most powerful battleship in the game... relegated to salvage duty.  'Powerful' is an odd description. You could add 5 sentry drones to both the kronos and vargur and they still would not reach the dps potential of their pirate alternatives. IMO I think sentry drones would be a nice addition. Pirates would still have their place. The golem / rattlesnake relationship would be a little cooler IMO: both are drones + missiles but the golem does better with missiles and application while the rattlesnake has better drone dmg and max dps potential. Sentry drones work well with bastion mode. PvE marauders would have more decisions about fits: * Long range boats might drop tractors for additional links bc of tractor range * short range boats might take links, rr, tractor, salvagers, or a mix * might hand off tractor duty to the looting structure to salvage or enhance drones. * extra slots saved by bastion could support drones when reaching stacking limits on TCs or Wep upgrades.
You could get too much firepower out of them. CCP do not want them completely out classing the t1 counterparts in damage. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:48:00 -
[6327] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:For incursions I think the Marauders allow some nice and new tactics. Spreading of the ships will be needed as well as NOSses as a sort of alternative energy transfer that works in bastion. Also, maybe, just maybe, for an incursion Paladin, 2 megapulse + 2 tachyons might be optimal If you spread your fleet around. Every ship will be able to snipe, will be able to hit ships orbiting someone else and not be totally useless if they orbit you. Some dps/distance graphs might need to be drawn but there might be something in it. For the rest, I'ld like to say these iterations are shaping up nicely. The only changes I'ld like to see are:
- swap Paladin cap bonus with its dps bonus: all other marauders have their dps bonus on the battleship skill
- increase tractor beam range to beyond 50k: this way, any can will always be in reach when mjd-ing around.
Wow, split gun types... Ships jumping in multiple directions.
I would love to be on comms when you suggest that to your FC. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:53:00 -
[6328] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: My group flies Paladin's doing bare minimum of 1300 DPS, maxed out at 1560 DPS with implants, using Conflag, or MF, most of the time when the rats get close and we need tracking. We absolutely need webs to be successful. MjDing away to shoot stuff at long range is a nerf in our effective DPS.
There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie. The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin.
I understand that your niche way of using the ships is getting a direct nerf due to dps loss... but honestly PVE is more then just incursions... maraduers are not designed to be exclusive to Incursions so why would you assume CCP would design the ship to be best at them? The ship is supposed to be best all round PVE ship that means ratting doing 10/10 plexes and so on with also includes but not exclusive incursions. personally i am stooked cuss i am going to use my rail kronos as my new 10/10 complex ship. Furthermore From what i Understand Incusions give stupid amounts of ISK... a little reduction in efficiancy and thus isk/hour is not a bad thing IMO. Curious though which ship are you guys chaging to? vindicators? why not go half vindicators and half palis? that way you can still have 90% webbs?
We are looking at nightmares first, Vindi's second. Both are poor seconds. I have no idea how many Vindi fleets we blew away as they operate in falloff, while our Paladin's were operating in optimal. Nightmares don't have the web though, so effective damage is hugely nerfed, and tank gets iffy in a non-blue bar, even with boosters. (Shield Nightmares are used in different doctrine, and are lethal)
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
104
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:13:00 -
[6329] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Actually, the easy thing to do is bookmark each room in a mission. Fly back, turn in the mission, then come out an warp to the wrecks without having to fly through warp gates and the mission site.
Also, since Marauders can clear missions pretty fast, you can clear and bookmark 3 or 4 missions, then come back and salvage them all with the noctis... It's the way I do it... Much faster than a 40 km tractor and unbonused salvager/s
The issue is that T1 salvage has a rather low value. It's debatable whether it's worth it at all to come back with a Noctis and salvage stuff, as opposed to just running another mission in that time. The Marauders can salvage wrecks WHILE they're running the mission. It costs you no DPS or missioning time to fit some tractors and salvagers and use them while you're pew pewing everything else. You won't get all the wrecks, but you will get some extra bonus loot that no other ship would get. IMHO, this bonus loot more than makes up for the small DPS difference between the Marauders and a pirate BS for level fours. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
104
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:19:00 -
[6330] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: We are looking at nightmares first, Vindi's second. Both are poor seconds. I have no idea how many Vindi fleets we blew away as they operate in falloff, while our Paladin's were operating in optimal. Nightmares don't have the web though, so effective damage is hugely nerfed, and tank gets iffy in a non-blue bar, even with boosters. (Shield Nightmares are used in different doctrine, and are lethal)
What I don't understand is why remote reps are considered so mandatory. A pimped out Paladin can local tank 7500 DPS easily, and it has more than enough EHP to not get blapped. Were you doing a spidertank fleet of nothing but Paladins? Because if you had any logi before in your Incursions, just drop them and bring in some Vindicators or Bhaalgorns for webbing duty. The Paladins will be able to RR these ships if needed and you get your webs. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:23:00 -
[6331] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:IMHO, this bonus loot more than makes up for the small DPS difference between the Marauders and a pirate BS for level fours. Right... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:41:00 -
[6332] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: We are looking at nightmares first, Vindi's second. Both are poor seconds. I have no idea how many Vindi fleets we blew away as they operate in falloff, while our Paladin's were operating in optimal. Nightmares don't have the web though, so effective damage is hugely nerfed, and tank gets iffy in a non-blue bar, even with boosters. (Shield Nightmares are used in different doctrine, and are lethal)
What I don't understand is why remote reps are considered so mandatory. A pimped out Paladin can local tank 7500 DPS easily, and it has more than enough EHP to not get blapped. Were you doing a spidertank fleet of nothing but Paladins? Because if you had any logi before in your Incursions, just drop them and bring in some Vindicators or Bhaalgorns for webbing duty. The Paladins will be able to RR these ships if needed and you get your webs.
Because a Paladin in Bastion mode is garbage. First off, to build a fit that is even close to cap friendly (I did not say cap stable), you have to sacrifice even MORE DPS, because so many more slots have to be sacrificed to tanking and cap usage.
Check one of my previous posts where I described the tank I had. It was NOT cap stable, and the ship died because the tank could not keep up, nor were the NOS's not working well enough when there was not any NPC BS's on grid, even if the tank would have held.
And that fit had to sacrifice 2 rig slots (T2 aux nano pumps), a mid slot (cap recharger), plus at least one more low slot. (We run 4-5 slots for DPS and tracking mods now, I only had 3 Heat sinks on the Singularity fit that died). And yes, I had 2 c-type ENAM's on the Sisi fit, so it was not strictly T2.
So the Bastion mode is absolutely terrible. And if you suggest using the MjD to gain distance, show me a weapon system that does more damage than a short range weapon system, against a target webbed to a near-standstill.
Plus we have the timer issues to deal with if the Bastion module is used, especially when you want to get 10 people all coming out at the precise same moment, plus the times when you have to re-acquire locks, plus having the bastion timer finish before you finish the site.
Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module.
And as for Bhaalgorns, they have inferior damage, and webbing something 40 or 45 km out is just dumb. Vindi's have great on paper DPS, but get clobbered when used in their falloff. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:54:00 -
[6333] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module. So the new Marauders will totally suck on incursions, they suck "lite" on L4s and they completely blow for PvP. Did I miss anything? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Reiisha
Evolution
383
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:03:00 -
[6334] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module. So the new Marauders will totally suck on incursions, they suck "lite" on L4s and they completely blow for PvP. Did I miss anything?
Drama queens, mostly.
I say, wait for the actual expansion and let the metagame roll on for a while. If they need a buff theyll get one in the next patch.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
599
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:10:00 -
[6335] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Actually, the easy thing to do is bookmark each room in a mission. Fly back, turn in the mission, then come out an warp to the wrecks without having to fly through warp gates and the mission site.
Also, since Marauders can clear missions pretty fast, you can clear and bookmark 3 or 4 missions, then come back and salvage them all with the noctis... It's the way I do it... Much faster than a 40 km tractor and unbonused salvager/s
The issue is that T1 salvage has a rather low value. It's debatable whether it's worth it at all to come back with a Noctis and salvage stuff, as opposed to just running another mission in that time. The Marauders can salvage wrecks WHILE they're running the mission. It costs you no DPS or missioning time to fit some tractors and salvagers and use them while you're pew pewing everything else. You won't get all the wrecks, but you will get some extra bonus loot that no other ship would get. IMHO, this bonus loot more than makes up for the small DPS difference between the Marauders and a pirate BS for level fours.
Just about every mission I fly has the same payout, if not more than bounty and reward. Considering it either takes equal or less time to salvage the missions, I would say its worth it. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:20:00 -
[6336] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Xequecal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Actually, the easy thing to do is bookmark each room in a mission. Fly back, turn in the mission, then come out an warp to the wrecks without having to fly through warp gates and the mission site.
Also, since Marauders can clear missions pretty fast, you can clear and bookmark 3 or 4 missions, then come back and salvage them all with the noctis... It's the way I do it... Much faster than a 40 km tractor and unbonused salvager/s
The issue is that T1 salvage has a rather low value. It's debatable whether it's worth it at all to come back with a Noctis and salvage stuff, as opposed to just running another mission in that time. The Marauders can salvage wrecks WHILE they're running the mission. It costs you no DPS or missioning time to fit some tractors and salvagers and use them while you're pew pewing everything else. You won't get all the wrecks, but you will get some extra bonus loot that no other ship would get. IMHO, this bonus loot more than makes up for the small DPS difference between the Marauders and a pirate BS for level fours. Just about every mission I fly has the same payout, if not more than bounty and reward. Considering it either takes equal or less time to salvage the missions, I would say its worth it.
Perhaps in order to compensate for the lack of damage on the Vargur and Kronos (though I'll take 110% damage from role bonus rather than 100%...even 105% to guns), maybe have ships some looting bonus? Say you get a higher chance than other battleships to salvage modules or more valuable salvage from each successful cycle?
Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:34:00 -
[6337] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module. So the new Marauders will totally suck on incursions, they suck "lite" on L4s and they completely blow for PvP. Did I miss anything?
Never said they will suck in L4's. I am not thrilled with them losing the web bonus, which makes it hell to kill frigs before the AI eats your drones. If you are dropped into a mission where the rats are on top of you, good luck with lasers. Blasters, might still be OK.
As for PvP, no one will fly a 1 billion ISK brick, that's only good role is to snipe, while there are lots of options at fraction of the cost. Besides , with the warp nerf, if there were any "roaming BS gangs" left out there, they are done for now. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
359
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:50:00 -
[6338] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:I say, wait for the actual expansion and let the metagame roll on for a while. If they need a buff theyll get one in the next patch. That's at least 4 months off...
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Never said they will suck in L4's. I am not thrilled with them losing the web bonus, which makes it hell to kill frigs before the AI eats your drones. If you are dropped into a mission where the rats are on top of you, good luck with lasers. Blasters, might still be OK.
As for PvP, no one will fly a 1 billion ISK brick, that's only good role is to snipe, while there are lots of options at fraction of the cost. Besides , with the warp nerf, if there were any "roaming BS gangs" left out there, they are done for now. That would be me (and I did say "lite" suck). Mainly because anything you can do in a Golem on an L4 you can do in a Raven for 1/8th the price. Yeah, too bad about the warp nerf to the battleships. Although, if they gave Marauders another 4 turrets/launchers they'd actually be able to fend off lighter ships. Battleships might need some serious work after this. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Saul Alastar
Aideron Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:07:00 -
[6339] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module. So the new Marauders will totally suck on incursions, they suck "lite" on L4s and they completely blow for PvP. Did I miss anything? Drama queens, mostly. I say, wait for the actual expansion and let the metagame roll on for a while. If they need a buff theyll get one in the next patch.
By the gods I hope you are right. |

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:21:00 -
[6340] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
Have you ever thought that it is a problem of Scorch and not hull? Why penalize all other turret weapon platforms because of one unbalanced ammo type? Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:32:00 -
[6341] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Here's an idea: Give each Marauder two (2) additional launchers -or- two (2) additional turrets (not both), just to give Marauders a bit of anti-frigate/cruiser capability. Since they'd be light or medium weapons, they won't receive any of the hull bonuses, with any DPS increase being a bare minimum. As far as that goes, if we're talking light weapons here - why not give them four (4) additional launchers or turrets.
If need be, increase the grid and CPU cost of Bastion to prevent abuse (I haven't played around with the Marauder fits, so maybe it's extremely tight for grid and CPU already; I don't think you could run any additional large turrets or launchers even with an ancillary rig - possibly a pair of mediums or a quad stack of lights, but that's probably it). In theory I guess you could possibly get away with a fifth large launcher or turret, but I imagine you'd sacrifice your rigs, a low slot and a lot of tank for the extra DPS. That's not necessarily a bad trade-off, and it does make Marauder configurations a bit more of a wildcard (you'd probably have to drop the MJD to pull it off).
It would make these a bit more interesting for PvP (and with the ability to fend off small ships, I can actually see Marauders venturing out of high-sec). Marauders are supposed to be the end-all/be-all of battleships: Tank, glass cannon or anti-ship - a few interesting possibilities with unique roles. Thoughts? This is similar to an idea I've put out there a few times and works towards really defining a true role for the Marauder class. Instead of saying they are a sniper by giving a slight boost to projection (stacking penalized at that), actually making them play a role within the sniper play style.
Modifications
- +1 turret hard point (Paladin, Kronos, Vargur)
- +1 launcher hard point (Golem)
- Role Bonus: 75%(-25%) weapon damage
- Bastion module occupies a weapon hard point
This equates out to a 9.375% DPS increase over TQ Marauders if all 5 hard points are occupied by weapons. The effective turret counts would look like this:
- Paladin TQ: 10
- Paladin New: 10.9
- Nightmare: 10 (I know, I don't like this either. More later)
- Golem TQ: 8
- Golem New: 8.75
- Kronos TQ: 10
- Kronos New: 10.9
- Vindicator: 11
- Vargur TQ: 10
- Vargur New: 10.9
- Machariel: 10.9
All pirate hulls will be doing greater or equal DPS than their Marauder counterpart with just guns alone except the NM. If taking drone DPS into account all pirate hulls will still out DPS the Marauders. In the case of the NM, it will still be doing more DPS with short range weapons due to greatly increased tracking over the Paladin.
The real fun begins when considering the effect on the Bastion module's power threshold since you would have to give up 20% of your max DPS (-12.5% compared to TQ Marauders) to fit it because it would occupy one of your weapon hard points. The module can be improved over the current iteration because you are giving up something valuable: DPS. Here's an example of what I'd like to see:
Bastion Module
- 33% scan resolution while active
- 40% max targeting range while active
- 100% increase to optimal and falloff range of remote sensor boosters
- +75mb drone bandwidth (deployed drones over bandwidth are abandoned when cycle ends)
These items would be in addition to the current Bastion module bonuses and drawbacks. A Bastion fit Marauder would excel at the sniper play style and gain the role of targeting support for the gang or fleet. The additional damage projection through optimal/falloff or missile velocity in conjunction with the increase in drone bandwidth would easily make up for the DPS loss of the 5th turret while the targeting bonuses would allow the Marauder and his group to quickly react to a changing battlefield.
Overall there isn't much movement in total DPS over the current iteration. However, the Maruader would have a well defined role in any sort of group engagement. Brawling Marauders would enjoy the added raw DPS potential while the Bastion module would not make up for the loss of DPS from 1 less turret/launcher in a close range encounter.
As it stands now, the current iteration loses a little too much DPS through reduced drone bandwidth. The damage projection bonuses don't make up for that loss completely. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:42:00 -
[6342] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:[quote=Arthur Aihaken] Modifications
- Vargur TQ: 10
- Vargur New: 10.9
- Machariel: 10.9
Vargur TQ: 10.67 Vargur new:11.67 Machariel: 11.67 Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:46:00 -
[6343] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:[quote=Arthur Aihaken] Modifications
- Vargur TQ: 10
- Vargur New: 10.9
- Machariel: 10.9
Vargur TQ: 10.67 Vargur new:11.67 Machariel: 11.67 Oops, forgot those bonuses. Thanks! Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 22:53:00 -
[6344] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
Have you ever thought that it is a problem of Scorch and not hull? Why penalize all other turret weapon platforms because of one unbalanced ammo type?
You are right. But ccps answer sounds to me like: we talked about it, we like the idea of a "true optimal and fall off bonus" but we have no idea how to implement it. So we use the scorch as an excuse.
And again: the fall-off bonus should always be twice as strong as the optimal bonus! |

Mr Holla
Dragon's Rage Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:15:00 -
[6345] - Quote
Not a big fan of these changes tbh,... The web bonus will be missed for my null sec Kronos even the 7.5 per bonus would be acceptable,.. And the mjd bonus would just be wasted on the marauders as they are best with close range guns on them,... This goes for my mission (lvl4's) vargur aswell.
Just don't get the big tank sniper concept,... :s |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:21:00 -
[6346] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:This is similar to an idea I've put out there a few times and works towards really defining a true role for the Marauder class. Instead of saying they are a sniper by giving a slight boost to projection (stacking penalized at that), actually making them play a role within the sniper play style. Modifications
- +1 turret hard point (Paladin, Kronos, Vargur)
- +1 launcher hard point (Golem)
- Role Bonus: 75%(-25%) weapon damage
- Bastion module occupies a weapon hard point
This equates out to a 9.375% DPS increase over TQ Marauders if all 5 hard points are occupied by weapons. The effective turret counts would look like this:
- Paladin TQ: 10
- Paladin New: 10.9
- Nightmare: 10 (I know, I don't like this either. More later)
- Golem TQ: 8
- Golem New: 8.75
- Kronos TQ: 10
- Kronos New: 10.9
- Vindicator: 11
- Vargur TQ: 10.67
- Vargur new:11.67
- Machariel: 11.67
All pirate hulls will be doing greater or equal DPS than their Marauder counterpart with just guns alone except the NM. If taking drone DPS into account all pirate hulls will still out DPS the Marauders. In the case of the NM, it will still be doing more DPS with short range weapons due to greatly increased tracking over the Paladin. The real fun begins when considering the effect on the Bastion module's power threshold since you would have to give up 20% of your max DPS (-12.5% compared to TQ Marauders) to fit it because it would occupy one of your weapon hard points. The module can be improved over the current iteration because you are giving up something valuable: DPS. Here's an example of what I'd like to see: Bastion Module
- 33% scan resolution while active
- 40% max targeting range while active
- 100% increase to optimal and falloff range of remote sensor boosters
- +75mb drone bandwidth (deployed drones over bandwidth are abandoned when cycle ends)
These items would be in addition to the current Bastion module bonuses and drawbacks. A Bastion fit Marauder would excel at the sniper play style and gain the role of targeting support for the gang or fleet. The additional damage projection through optimal/falloff or missile velocity in conjunction with the increase in drone bandwidth would easily make up for the DPS loss of the 5th turret while the targeting bonuses would allow the Marauder and his group to quickly react to a changing battlefield. Overall there isn't much movement in total DPS over the current iteration. However, the Maruader would have a well defined role in any sort of group engagement. Brawling Marauders would enjoy the added raw DPS potential while the Bastion module would not make up for the loss of DPS from 1 less turret/launcher in a close range encounter. As it stands now, the current iteration loses a little too much DPS through reduced drone bandwidth. The damage projection bonuses don't make up for that loss completely. I quite like this idea. However Bastion would be giving drone bandwidth, scan res, targeting range, resists...a bit too much.
However, the Marauder would be losing it's Marauder status.
I like the concept, and would work wonderful for a T2 combat ship based on the Maelstrom, Rokh, Hyperion and Abaddon, battleships made solely for damage (like HACs for cruisers), can they be called something like Heavy Combat Battleship?
For Marauders I'll defend the fact that they need to be able to salvage and loot easily. Role Bonus: Wrecks within 10kms of the ship get salvaged automatically? (okay, a bit too far).
What we all agree though is that Marauders lack raw damage, especially for the Minmatar Vargur. I think we matari got the worst lately. Speed and mass nerfs, our guns lack raw DPS, agility was thrown out...at least give us battleships that can alpha stuff via 1400!
Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
89
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:52:00 -
[6347] - Quote
Never mind. Just remembered the Ewar immunity immunity of the target spectrum breaker... Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:53:00 -
[6348] - Quote
The way I've been using The vargur that's been working great is exactly the opposite of what CCP wants me to do. That's the beauty of the sandbox nature of eve. I do what I want.
I use the amazing agility of the MJD to jump close to the enemy and then bastion up and kill all the things. Rinse and repeat. My damage output increases in some cases over 100% and I smile all the way.
I still need to test out 1400 vargur though. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:57:00 -
[6349] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:The way I've been using The vargur that's been working great is exactly the opposite of what CCP wants me to do. That's the beauty of the sandbox nature of eve. I do what I want.
I use the amazing agility of the MJD to jump close to the enemy and then bastion up and kill all the things. Rinse and repeat. My damage output increases in some cases over 100% and I smile all the way.
I still need to test out 1400 vargur though.
don't do it. boring. because of the four guns you have to shoot all 4 individually. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:08:00 -
[6350] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:The way I've been using The vargur that's been working great is exactly the opposite of what CCP wants me to do. That's the beauty of the sandbox nature of eve. I do what I want.
I use the amazing agility of the MJD to jump close to the enemy and then bastion up and kill all the things. Rinse and repeat. My damage output increases in some cases over 100% and I smile all the way.
I still need to test out 1400 vargur though. don't do it. boring. because of the four guns you have to shoot all 4 individually.
I used to run a mael with 8 1400 split into 4 groups of 2 each when I just wanted to have some fun blapping stuff.
What some people find boring others find fun. What you find fun I might find boring (MWD/AB towards enemies constantly, eeeeew) |
|

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
89
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:15:00 -
[6351] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:snip I quite like this idea. However Bastion would be giving drone bandwidth, scan res, targeting range, resists...a bit too much. However, the Marauder would be losing it's Marauder status. I like the concept, and would work wonderful for a T2 combat ship based on the Maelstrom, Rokh, Hyperion and Abaddon, battleships made solely for damage (like HACs for cruisers), can they be called something like Heavy Combat Battleship? For Marauders I'll defend the fact that they need to be able to salvage and loot easily. Role Bonus: Wrecks within 10kms of the ship get salvaged automatically? (okay, a bit too far). What we all agree though is that Marauders lack raw damage, especially for the Minmatar Vargur. I think we matari got the worst lately. Speed and mass nerfs, our guns lack raw DPS, agility was thrown out...at least give us battleships that can alpha stuff via 1400! I'm not really worried about losing the Marauder aspect of Marauders as the current iteration pretty much already does that. My issue is that as far as long range engagements go the only major benefit Marauders will have over T1/faction/pirate hulls is minor projection, EWar immunity, and increased tank or equal tank with tank modules replaced with other modules. For this benefit, they are giving up all mobility, remote assistance, and a significant reduction in Sentry Drone DPS.
I'm afraid that for most roles there will be a better hull within the T1/faction/pirate categories than the applicable Marauder especially the drone oriented boats as that play style provides pseudo EWar immunity. The local tank potential of a Marauder is fantastic. However, in group play the addition of logistics is an easy match.
My idea isn't really as much about raw damage as it is about better damage when deployed within a role. When fit with close range weapons in all 5 hard points, the pirate alternative would still out damage the Marauder as I think it should be. The big difference would be when a Marauder is acting as a sniper in some role. In that case as long as the engagement remains at long range, the Marauder would out damage (raw or application) its T1/faction/pirate counterparts by enough of a margin to be attractive in that role. As it stands with the loss of drone bandwidth with nothing to compensate for it, it will bring less DPS than at least some (if not the majority) of T1/faction/pirate hulls. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:18:00 -
[6352] - Quote
I was thinking, with all the people suggesting stuff, how about the following?
Added role bonus to each hull, based on race.
PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to tracking range of large energy weapons. (or 20% bonus to NOS/Neut range)
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to explosion radius.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifier. (This bonus could be modified by +75mpbs drone bandwidth to allow heavies or sentries when bastioned)
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
VARGUR
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to large projectile weapon damage.
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level
New bonuses rely on Bastion to active, but only then, and are specific to each race, giving them something that encourages the use of Bastion and a unique role bonus to the ship when engaging it. New bonuses are in BOLD. Percentages could be tweaked to adjust the balance properly, either upping or lowering said values. However, they'll add damage about their pirate hulls, this is immediately countered by the immobility that Bastion forces (and the already nerfed mobility). Flexibility will be these ships name, as they Bastion up and tank, while shredding the enemy, but once mobile the ship goes back to normal, keeping the balance between T1, T2 and faction hulls.
Having these bonuses will encourage the use of Bastion and the trade-off of being static in place, and they'll go off whenever the ship goes back to mobile. This will allow the ship to have a small edge in damage projection while sitting still, but lose it, for the sake of being balanced, while moving, giving us the option to go static but more applied damage, or mobile and lesser application of damage. Seems like a fair trade to me.
EDIT: As it is right now, Marauders are all falling into a same bland category, with little differentiation between them. Adding this, would make ships get the most out of each races, while playing as each of the races, better roleplay options. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
119
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:29:00 -
[6353] - Quote
I'm actually rather bummed about the loss of the web strength bonus on the Paladin and the increase in its range. Range was never the issue for the Paladin; the same could not be said for the ability to actually hit your target with BS guns.
I'm hoping the range bonus that's currently listed now gets replaced with a tracking bonus. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
811
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:44:00 -
[6354] - Quote
I have to admit that while Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium are doing a pretty good job making ships interesting and useful (most of the time) I do lament how they're feeling more and more homogenized. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 01:34:00 -
[6355] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:I was thinking, with all the people suggesting stuff, how about the following?
Added role bonus to each hull, based on race.
PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to tracking range of large energy weapons (this bonus could be swapped by 20% bonus to NOS/Neut range).
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to explosion radius.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifier. (This bonus could be modified to +75mpbs drone bandwidth to allow heavies or sentries when bastioned)
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
VARGUR
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 15% bonus to large projectile weapon damage.
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level
New bonuses rely on Bastion to active, but only then, and are specific to each race, giving them something that encourages the use of Bastion and a unique role bonus to the ship when engaging it. New bonuses are in BOLD. Percentages could be tweaked to adjust the balance properly, either upping or lowering said values. However, they'll add damage about their pirate hulls, this is immediately countered by the immobility that Bastion forces (and the already nerfed mobility). Flexibility will be these ships name, as they Bastion up and tank, while shredding the enemy, but once mobile the ship goes back to normal, keeping the balance between T1, T2 and faction hulls.
Having these bonuses will encourage the use of Bastion and the trade-off of being static in place, and they'll go off whenever the ship goes back to mobile. This will allow the ship to have a small edge in damage projection while sitting still, but lose it, for the sake of being balanced, while moving, giving us the option to go static but more applied damage, or mobile and lesser application of damage. Seems like a fair trade to me.
EDIT: As it is right now, Marauders are all falling into a same bland category, with little differentiation between them. Adding this, would make ships get the most out of each races, while playing as each of the races, better roleplay options.
Would that not allow some hulls to pummel long range, then when things get close also allow to continue at short? I switch Gards/Wardens like that on a Rattler, which is ok for NPC, and as far as players, well, they can kill the Sentries, but guns?
Wouldn't that make you invulnerable to small things? I thought the point of lots of frigs killing a BS was the "getting under the guns" idea, and now we would have long AND short control, allowing killing of say, tackle frigs so we can GTFO.
I'm not PVP savvy, I'm actually really asking.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 01:42:00 -
[6356] - Quote
Still don't get why, with the warp changes they don't increase warp acceleration to same as cruiser/battlecruiser? Increases value for pve and pvp and differentiates against t1 and pirate.
Seems obvious. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:06:00 -
[6357] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Serge SC wrote:I was thinking, with all the people suggesting stuff, how about the following?
Added role bonus to each hull, based on race.
PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to tracking range of large energy weapons (this bonus could be swapped by 20% bonus to NOS/Neut range).
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to explosion radius.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 20% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifier. (This bonus could be modified to +75mpbs drone bandwidth to allow heavies or sentries when bastioned)
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount per level 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
VARGUR
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. When Bastion is active, 15% bonus to large projectile weapon damage.
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level
New bonuses rely on Bastion to active, but only then, and are specific to each race, giving them something that encourages the use of Bastion and a unique role bonus to the ship when engaging it. New bonuses are in BOLD. Percentages could be tweaked to adjust the balance properly, either upping or lowering said values. However, they'll add damage about their pirate hulls, this is immediately countered by the immobility that Bastion forces (and the already nerfed mobility). Flexibility will be these ships name, as they Bastion up and tank, while shredding the enemy, but once mobile the ship goes back to normal, keeping the balance between T1, T2 and faction hulls.
Having these bonuses will encourage the use of Bastion and the trade-off of being static in place, and they'll go off whenever the ship goes back to mobile. This will allow the ship to have a small edge in damage projection while sitting still, but lose it, for the sake of being balanced, while moving, giving us the option to go static but more applied damage, or mobile and lesser application of damage. Seems like a fair trade to me.
EDIT: As it is right now, Marauders are all falling into a same bland category, with little differentiation between them. Adding this, would make ships get the most out of each races, while playing as each of the races, better roleplay options. Would that not allow some hulls to pummel long range, then when things get close also allow to continue at short? I switch Gards/Wardens like that on a Rattler, which is ok for NPC, and as far as players, well, they can kill the Sentries, but guns? Wouldn't that make you invulnerable to small things? I thought the point of lots of frigs killing a BS was the "getting under the guns" idea, and now we would have long AND short control, allowing killing of say, tackle frigs so we can GTFO. I'm not PVP savvy, I'm actually really asking. I haven't done numbers about the balance of said extras. However, as the third iteration, they're ok, but play around the same, MJD+Bastion and each racial advantage/disadvantage is pretty much homogenized. Having a dedicated, racial-based, small bonus would greatly increased the versatility of marauders playing to each races particular way of playing.
About each bonus, they can be pretty slight, like a 10-20% bonus to not make them too powerful on all instances, but actually to give them a slight edge, or advantage of actually using Bastion in combat situations (particularly for PVP). I was thinking again, and they could be ewar bonuses (NOS/Neut for Amarr, move the TP bonus from the Golem and give it the explosion radius bonus to the hull itself, webs for Gallente and raw damage for Minmatar (speed and agility I would've said, but we're immobile, so that'd be pointless, unless you allow bastioned Vargurs to actually move, at a greatly reduced speed, as a racial bonus). Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:45:00 -
[6358] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:Still don't get why, with the warp changes they don't increase warp acceleration to same as cruiser/battlecruiser? Increases value for pve and pvp and differentiates against t1 and pirate. Seems obvious. What's obvious is that anything larger than a T1 cruiser is dead in PvP. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
599
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 05:00:00 -
[6359] - Quote
I still don't get all the crying about webs...
These ships have to countered somehow. If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered. They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.
At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread... Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8302
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 05:24:00 -
[6360] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I still don't get all the crying about webs...
These ships have to countered somehow. If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered. They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.
At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread... Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell.
PvE players don't care. They always push for a ship with no weaknesses in every change that impacts them. They never test said ships to any degree and get angry when their great idea gets torn apart by PvP pilots who test changes in every way possible. The problem is that just about every PvE pilot has no experience or need to experiment with fits, they just copy whatever is the top rated hull and fit on battleclinic and follow the PvE guides.
After the disaster that was the barge buffs CCP has learned to ignore these people which is why every teircide after the barges has been a great success. |
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1361
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:08:00 -
[6361] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I have to admit that while Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium are doing a pretty good job making ships interesting and useful (most of the time) I do lament how they're feeling more and more homogenized.
Though you have made your bias evident, I will ask the question with the predictable answer.
Why do you think that a pair of PvP addicted people should be in charge of overhauling a PvE ship, one that has been PvE since it was constructed years ago, long before they started working at CCP? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1361
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:09:00 -
[6362] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I still don't get all the crying about webs...
These ships have to countered somehow. If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered. They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.
At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread... Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell. PvE players don't care. They always push for a ship with no weaknesses in every change that impacts them. They never test said ships to any degree and get angry when their great idea gets torn apart by PvP pilots who test changes in every way possible. The problem is that just about every PvE pilot has no experience or need to experiment with fits, they just copy whatever is the top rated hull and fit on battleclinic and follow the PvE guides. After the disaster that was the barge buffs CCP has learned to ignore these people which is why every teircide after the barges has been a great success.
You are a liar. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:12:00 -
[6363] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I have to admit that while Fozzie, Rise and Ytterbium are doing a pretty good job making ships interesting and useful (most of the time) I do lament how they're feeling more and more homogenized. Though you have made your bias evident, I will ask the question with the predictable answer. Why do you think that a pair of PvP addicted people should be in charge of overhauling a PvE ship, one that has been PvE since it was constructed years ago, long before they started working at CCP?
Because said pve ships sucked in a lot of pve and that they are no longer pve only ships as CCP do not want a combat ship that is useless at most combat. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:21:00 -
[6364] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You are a liar.
Go back through this very thread. Every single idea from pve players has demanded the removal of all drawbacks, more damage, webs dispite the fact these are long range ships, more tracking, full flights of sentries, more resists just to make omni tankz easier to fit and an utter lack of first hand testing.
Most pve drones are trying to simlly turn these ships into yet another pirate BS. The simple fact is these ship are much better at almost all pve and very vible in several pvp roles. You however want them to be able to do just a single job, incursions. Dispite the fact thatt the pirate BS are better at this job anyway. |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:34:00 -
[6365] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You are a liar.
Go back through this very thread. Every single idea from pve players has demanded the removal of all drawbacks, more damage, webs dispite the fact these are long range ships, more tracking, full flights of sentries, more resists just to make omni tankz easier to fit and an utter lack of first hand testing. Most pve drones are trying to simlly turn these ships into yet another pirate BS. The simple fact is these ship are much better at almost all pve and very vible in several pvp roles. You however want them to be able to do just a single job, incursions. Dispite the fact thatt the pirate BS are better at this job anyway.
I just think that a ship that takes that's tech 2 and takes far longer to train for should be at least equal to the pirate battleships for PVE (which so far has been the only reason to train for a marauder). |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:42:00 -
[6366] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You are a liar.
Go back through this very thread. Every single idea from pve players has demanded the removal of all drawbacks, more damage, webs dispite the fact these are long range ships, more tracking, full flights of sentries, more resists just to make omni tankz easier to fit and an utter lack of first hand testing. Most pve drones are trying to simlly turn these ships into yet another pirate BS. The simple fact is these ship are much better at almost all pve and very vible in several pvp roles. You however want them to be able to do just a single job, incursions. Dispite the fact thatt the pirate BS are better at this job anyway. I just think that a ship that takes that's tech 2 and takes far longer to train for should be at least equal to the pirate battleships for PVE (which so far has been the only reason to train for a marauder).
Thats called powercreep. Give these ships a massive tank, pirate BS firepower, good resists, ewar immunity, better range and we find that no other ship is worth flying. If you want better firepower then fly the pirate BS, thats their thing. |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:48:00 -
[6367] - Quote
There are ways to balance out the marauders and pirate battleships without power creep. For example, give the nightmare 7.5%/level damage and remove the tracking bonus, then give the paladin the apocalypse bonuses and keep the 5% damage bonus. The nightmare becomes the go-to for melt-your-face laser DPS while the paladin has better damage projection on smaller targets. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 06:59:00 -
[6368] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You are a liar.
Go back through this very thread. Every single idea from pve players has demanded the removal of all drawbacks, more damage, webs dispite the fact these are long range ships, more tracking, full flights of sentries, more resists just to make omni tankz easier to fit and an utter lack of first hand testing. Most pve drones are trying to simlly turn these ships into yet another pirate BS. The simple fact is these ship are much better at almost all pve and very vible in several pvp roles. You however want them to be able to do just a single job, incursions. Dispite the fact thatt the pirate BS are better at this job anyway. I would consider myself primarily a pve player. However, I think if you go back through my suggestions you'll see that your blanket statement doesn't apply to everyone. I'm perfectly fine with drawbacks. I'm perfectly fine with Marauders as a class to be specialized within a role.
I do advocate a slight damage increase, although still below that of pirate BS counterparts in all play styles other than long range engagements. If the developers wish these hulls to excel within this envelope, there still are some issues with the proposed changes. Some T1/faction/pirate hulls still outperform their Marauder counterparts in this scenario due to drone DPS potential and equal or greater main weapon system DPS. The current state is pretty close, though it could be better. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
164
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:06:00 -
[6369] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PvE players don't care. They always push for a ship with no weaknesses in every change that impacts them. They never test said ships to any degree and get angry when their great idea gets torn apart by PvP pilots who test changes in every way possible. The problem is that just about every PvE pilot has no experience or need to experiment with fits, they just copy whatever is the top rated hull and fit on battleclinic and follow the PvE guides.
After the disaster that was the barge buffs CCP has learned to ignore these people which is why every teircide after the barges has been a great success. The bias is strong with this one. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:10:00 -
[6370] - Quote
Iome Ambraelle wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You are a liar.
Go back through this very thread. Every single idea from pve players has demanded the removal of all drawbacks, more damage, webs dispite the fact these are long range ships, more tracking, full flights of sentries, more resists just to make omni tankz easier to fit and an utter lack of first hand testing. Most pve drones are trying to simlly turn these ships into yet another pirate BS. The simple fact is these ship are much better at almost all pve and very vible in several pvp roles. You however want them to be able to do just a single job, incursions. Dispite the fact thatt the pirate BS are better at this job anyway. I would consider myself primarily a pve player. However, I think if you go back through my suggestions you'll see that your blanket statement doesn't apply to everyone. I'm perfectly fine with drawbacks. I'm perfectly fine with Marauders as a class to be specialized within a role. I do advocate a slight damage increase, although still below that of pirate BS counterparts in all play styles other than long range engagements. If the developers wish these hulls to excel within this envelope, there still are some issues with the proposed changes. Some T1/faction/pirate hulls still outperform their Marauder counterparts in this scenario due to drone DPS potential and equal or greater main weapon system DPS. The current state is pretty close, though it could be better.
The t1 and faction ships also need to be viable. This is why the dps is only slightly higher, maurauders get much better damage application at longer range. So they do have better damage, just not via a blanket buff like what you are asking for. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:18:00 -
[6371] - Quote
Rowells wrote:baltec1 wrote:PvE players don't care. They always push for a ship with no weaknesses in every change that impacts them. They never test said ships to any degree and get angry when their great idea gets torn apart by PvP pilots who test changes in every way possible. The problem is that just about every PvE pilot has no experience or need to experiment with fits, they just copy whatever is the top rated hull and fit on battleclinic and follow the PvE guides.
After the disaster that was the barge buffs CCP has learned to ignore these people which is why every teircide after the barges has been a great success. The bias is strong with this one.
I aint wrong though. Literally the only people unhappy here are the min/max pve players, mostly incursion runners, demanding either no change or a specialised incursion boat to do the job pirate ships can currently do. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1361
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:18:00 -
[6372] - Quote
Rowells wrote:baltec1 wrote:PvE players don't care. They always push for a ship with no weaknesses in every change that impacts them. They never test said ships to any degree and get angry when their great idea gets torn apart by PvP pilots who test changes in every way possible. The problem is that just about every PvE pilot has no experience or need to experiment with fits, they just copy whatever is the top rated hull and fit on battleclinic and follow the PvE guides.
After the disaster that was the barge buffs CCP has learned to ignore these people which is why every teircide after the barges has been a great success. The bias is strong with this one.
It is interesting how the great deceiver has ALMOST managed to turn the conversation to some bizarre claim that T1 ships are supposed to be better than some T2 ship that has a specialized role.
The Marauder's role is PvE. Period. Full stop. It was designed from the ground up as that.
To have a coupleof PvP fanatics get their hands on it to turn it into something it was never designed to be is beyond sad. And then to have the comments from the goon mouthpiece are backing that insane concept would be comical, if they were not so dangerous to the integrity of the ship class, and PvE in general. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:29:00 -
[6373] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Rowells wrote:baltec1 wrote:PvE players don't care. They always push for a ship with no weaknesses in every change that impacts them. They never test said ships to any degree and get angry when their great idea gets torn apart by PvP pilots who test changes in every way possible. The problem is that just about every PvE pilot has no experience or need to experiment with fits, they just copy whatever is the top rated hull and fit on battleclinic and follow the PvE guides.
After the disaster that was the barge buffs CCP has learned to ignore these people which is why every teircide after the barges has been a great success. The bias is strong with this one. It is interesting how the great deceiver has ALMOST managed to turn the conversation to some bizarre claim that T1 ships are supposed to be better than some T2 ship that has a specialized role. The Marauder's role is PvE. Period. Full stop. It was designed from the ground up as that. To have a coupleof PvP fanatics get their hands on it to turn it into something it was never designed to be is beyond sad. And then to have the comments from the goon mouthpiece are backing that insane concept would be comical, if they were not so dangerous to the integrity of the ship class, and PvE in general.
They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 07:50:00 -
[6374] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I still don't get all the crying about webs...
These ships have to countered somehow. If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered. They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.
At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread... Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell.
cap warfare, so gedddon, bahl, or 2 curses is the ships counter.
any cruiser, desi, or frig orbiting under 1000m wont be hit by any of them but the golem. And if you can't kill light drones while orbiting, well.
|

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:00:00 -
[6375] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means.
I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:05:00 -
[6376] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I still don't get all the crying about webs...
These ships have to countered somehow. If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered. They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.
At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread... Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell. cap warfare, so gedddon, bahl, or 2 curses is the ships counter. any cruiser, desi, or frig orbiting under 1000m wont be hit by any of them but the golem. And if you can't kill light drones while orbiting, well.
Bonused webs with blaster would rip apart cruisers. Most(99.9%) small gangs do not have geddons with them and a ship like the geddon isnt all that vulnerable to neuts and will be slamming on smaller ships thanks to the new rage heavies. Those free high slots also mean you can either web, neut and kill frigates with drones or just web and smartbomb. This removes most scrams so you can just mjd away if you need to.
They can already be a tough nut to crack even at close range, no need to make them even better and thus, srep on the toes of the other BS. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:09:00 -
[6377] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means. I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too.
T1 cruisers are still very viable vs hacs and T3 are lined up for a heavy nerf now. Making marauders equal to the pirate boats would invalidate them as you would have the most firepower coupled with the biggest subcap tank in a package with better range, better resists, bonus to mjd and ewar immunity. Simply far too powerful. |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:25:00 -
[6378] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means. I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too. T1 cruisers are still very viable vs hacs and T3 are lined up for a heavy nerf now. Making marauders equal to the pirate boats would invalidate them as you would have the most firepower coupled with the biggest subcap tank in a package with better range, better resists, bonus to mjd and ewar immunity. Simply far too powerful.
Balancing the ship around the bastion module will force marauders into a niche role like black-ops. If CCP's intent is to make even fewer people fly them they're on the right path. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:32:00 -
[6379] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means. I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too. T1 cruisers are still very viable vs hacs and T3 are lined up for a heavy nerf now. Making marauders equal to the pirate boats would invalidate them as you would have the most firepower coupled with the biggest subcap tank in a package with better range, better resists, bonus to mjd and ewar immunity. Simply far too powerful. Balancing the ship around the bastion module will force marauders into a niche role like black-ops. If CCP's intent is to make even fewer people fly them they're on the right path.
They will see a lot more action than they do now. The new ones are going to be good snipe boats, good in almost all pve and greate in several solo situations. |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:38:00 -
[6380] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
They will see a lot more action than they do now. The new ones are going to be good snipe boats, good in almost all pve and greate in several solo situations.
Without being able to receive remote reps you can't use them in fleet-based PVE and sniping isn't the fastest way to run level 4's.
That's not good at PVE, that's pointless for PVE. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:46:00 -
[6381] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:
They will see a lot more action than they do now. The new ones are going to be good snipe boats, good in almost all pve and greate in several solo situations.
Without being able to receive remote reps you can't use them in fleet-based PVE and sniping isn't the fastest way to run level 4's. That's not good at PVE, that's pointless for PVE.
With bastion they dont need RR. And in level 4s they can get away with a two slot tank which means they get much better damage application. In anoms for example a kronos can just park up with blasters and blap away.
A palladin will not suffer from being tracking disrupted and it can fit more damage and tracking mods which makes it better at applying its damage than even a nightmare at a longer range. |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:51:00 -
[6382] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
With bastion they dont need RR.
You're wrong. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:55:00 -
[6383] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:
With bastion they dont need RR.
You're wrong.
You can tank entire pvp gangs solo in these things. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
812
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:57:00 -
[6384] - Quote
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:
With bastion they dont need RR.
You're wrong.
What an eloquent and informative rebuttal. |

Nefra Ravenheart
Ravenheart Enterprises LLC.
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 09:01:00 -
[6385] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:
With bastion they dont need RR.
You're wrong. What an eloquent and informative rebuttal.
Didn't think it was worth the time it given that this thread is full of examples of why the bastion module is rubbish for PVE. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 09:03:00 -
[6386] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:
With bastion they dont need RR.
You're wrong. You can tank entire pvp gangs solo in these things.
Every time i would see a vargure in bastion i would get a scanner, a ceptor and some arties. You just have to coordinate alpha and it dies. A double LASB on TQ was already hard to beat for a gang. but alpha always did the job. Now with this fat cow marauders you just need to identify the fitting and it is dead.
OFC a gang of those marauders is a hard nut to crack, but a gang of them would be much more dangerous if they would move and rr each other. Awesome resists, buffer against alpha and quite good damage. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 09:13:00 -
[6387] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nefra Ravenheart wrote:baltec1 wrote:
With bastion they dont need RR.
You're wrong. You can tank entire pvp gangs solo in these things. Every time i would see a vargure in bastion i would get a scanner, a ceptor and some arties. You just have to coordinate alpha and it dies. A double LASB on TQ was already hard to beat for a gang. but alpha always did the job. Now with this fat cow marauders you just need to identify the fitting and it is dead. OFC a gang of those marauders is a hard nut to crack, but a gang of them would be much more dangerous if they would move and rr each other. Awesome resists, buffer against alpha and quite good damage.
And where are you going to find these alpha ships in the middle of cfc space?
Do you honestly think I will just sit there and not scan you down in return? Every ship can be countered in the way you just described but in reality your argument just doesn't hold water. Most gangs are small and use cruiser and below ships. The new marauders can tank almost all of these gangs and if they dont run can also kill them. They do not need RR support. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 09:56:00 -
[6388] - Quote
I'm sorry to say, that i think, that maybe 0,1% of all players can use a Marauder in PVP (includes ISK/SP and PVP skill). I never will, i even don't go on a frig/cruiser roam, when my clone jump isn't ready, because my pod costs a lot more then the ship. And my pod is a lot cheaper then a Marauder. If anyone writes again money is no factor, so he is right for maybe less than 2% players of the complete server, for the rest of us it matters.
If you will tell people, 08/15 carebares will go to lowsec doing lvl 5, with this ships, i don't believe it. I think some lowsec corps will do it, as they do it right now and maybe a few others. My opinion is: Lvl 5 should be teamplay, equally incursions and WH.
What CCP want to do is something that's an "impossiple mission" on this ship class, it will burt hurt the PVE players (thats the customers of this ship) and will be calmingly to the PVP players. But it's a string thats follow to the result, that noone is pleased really. One side say: It's too strong! We can't break your tank! The other side says: What the hell? I don't need tank, i need dps! (Irony detected)
Why inventing this class new? Ah i forgot, they invested time doing a animation and invested a lot of money in an idea, that no real PVE player wants(exceptions are the rule). It's an effort to make this shipclass more viable in PVP, i ask for which persons? The normal eve player can't afford it. Maybe a cool animation for the next AT?
I tested all 4 Marauders. My thoughts were: Yay cool, meh, wtf?, sucks. If you want you can riddle which words fits to the correct marauder. For one weapon system it's absolutly great. For an other it's ok. Two systems would be the losers in this, they want to reinvent the wheel. Don't we have enough response and ideas to handle with it?
Why you try to make all equal and boring? Don't make it to smooth. Two work very good with the Bastion, the other two not, maybe give them other boni or let them work as shortrange platform.
please: give the forum a ignore char button
|

Kate stark
681
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 10:37:00 -
[6389] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:please: give the forum a ignore char button
it has one. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:07:00 -
[6390] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:please: give the forum a ignore char button
it has one.
This could be used as an example of what I have been saying about pve players lack of knolage...
|
|

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:10:00 -
[6391] - Quote
This is not my only char, i'm doing pvp in small scale and a enjoy it. You sir have no better arguments? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8303
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:21:00 -
[6392] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:This is not my only char, i'm doing pvp in small scale and a enjoy it. You sir have no better arguments?
If you arnt willing to either post on said alt or post its name then I wouldn't bother bringing it up as people will just dismiss it as a lie.
In the end, if these ships sucked balls I would say so. They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas. |

Kate stark
681
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:30:00 -
[6393] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas.
unfortunately, none of them in an area that doesn't just make them better at what they're already relegated to. or, so it seems.
i know that looking at them, and the ccp comments on them, i have no reason to pick one for incursions over a pirate hull even after the pirate rebalance. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:36:00 -
[6394] - Quote
My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8304
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:39:00 -
[6395] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas. unfortunately, none of them in an area that doesn't just make them better at what they're already relegated to. or, so it seems. i know that looking at them, and the ccp comments on them, i have no reason to pick one for incursions over a pirate hull even after the pirate rebalance.
Well lets be honest here, they are a ship with bonuses to local active tanks. They have never been the best choice for an RR fleet because they have always had a wasted bonus. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8304
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:48:00 -
[6396] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it?
Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups.
The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:06:00 -
[6397] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it? Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups.
I'm sorry, i'm definatly no min/max player, i agree often with your posts (have i said this?). A marauder should not be OP, but it's a specialist hull, so in it's niche it should be better as an T1 ship, or? I'm a new player friendly person. I like helping new players get in the game and fly missions with them, i try to introduce them in many ways in this game. If i was new i saw a marauder and then i had a goal - i want to fly this ship! Why should a new player want to skill to a marauder if it doesn't perform a piece better then a T1?
still open:
Quote: #6355 Posted: 2013.10.20 09:56 | Report
I'm sorry to say, that i think, that maybe 0,1% of all players can use a Marauder in PVP (includes ISK/SP and PVP skill). I never will, i even don't go on a frig/cruiser roam, when my clone jump isn't ready, because my pod costs a lot more then the ship. And my pod is a lot cheaper then a Marauder. If anyone writes again money is no factor, so he is right for maybe less than 2% players of the complete server, for the rest of us it matters.
If you will tell people, 08/15 carebares will go to lowsec doing lvl 5, with this ships, i don't believe it. I think some lowsec corps will do it, as they do it right now and maybe a few others. My opinion is: Lvl 5 should be teamplay, equally incursions and WH.
What CCP want to do is something that's an "impossible mission" on this ship class, it will burt hurt the PVE players (thats the customers of this ship) and will be calmingly to the PVP players. But it's a string thats follow to the result, that noone is pleased really. One side say: It's too strong! We can't break your tank! The other side says: What the hell? I don't need tank, i need dps! (Irony detected)
Why inventing this class new? Ah i forgot, they invested time doing a animation and invested a lot of money in an idea, that no real PVE player wants(exceptions are the rule). It's an effort to make this shipclass more viable in PVP, i ask for which persons? The normal eve player can't afford it. Maybe a cool animation for the next AT?
I tested all 4 Marauders. My thoughts were: Yay cool, meh, wtf?, sucks. If you want you can riddle which words fits to the correct marauder. For one weapon system it's absolutly great. For an other it's ok. Two systems would be the losers in this, they want to reinvent the wheel. Don't we have enough response and ideas to handle with it?
Why you try to make all equal and boring? Don't make it to smooth. Two work very good with the Bastion, the other two not, maybe give them other boni or let them work as shortrange platform.
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:08:00 -
[6398] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics. I have to admit I am with baltec at this one. I couldn't be arsed to setup SiSI but judging from published stats those ships are going to be no worse for what I do now (mostly mission running), if not just much better.
For the record, as of now pirate battleships already outperform marauders and CCP has stated that in the grand scheme it's going to be this way. Deal with it. Also I don't remember anyone stating they are supposed to be used in large fleets.
And with proposed changes they seem to have acquired some PVP viability, for solo and small gangs. To the extent that I, carebear since day one, would consider grabbing one and, excuse a pun, gate crashing a camp or two. Would I burn in fire? Hell yeah! But at least I'd have a chance to have some actual fun.
Lastly, to all who propose alternative rebalancing, let me repeat what I wrote much earlier in this thread: assume your proposed changes went to TQ and now your enemy, griefers, competing incursion fleet, etc, had launched operation against you with your marauders. What can you do to counter? If the only correct answer is "bring more marauders" then your change is NOT balanced. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8304
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:11:00 -
[6399] - Quote
They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.
This is their selling point over t1. |

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:20:00 -
[6400] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
I tested all 4 Marauders. My thoughts were: Yay cool, meh, wtf?, sucks. If you want you can riddle which words fits to the correct marauder. For one weapon system it's absolutly great. For an other it's ok. Two systems would be the losers in this, they want to reinvent the wheel. Don't we have enough response and ideas to handle with it?
That in fact sums it up in a nutshell. |
|

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:20:00 -
[6401] - Quote
 |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:33:00 -
[6402] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it? Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around. The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics.
Would you use it for PvP? Can you afford it? I can't. I would use a nano Phoon, it does the job, is much more mobile and can fit the MJD as a O **** button too. The Problem with a marauder in PVP is that a t1 hull can it cheaper.
Besides i don't like that any sub class ship is immune to something, immunity is not the solution, even a module that nails you on the ground.
But it's advertising, so it will hit us Nov. 19. no matter what we will post here. |

Enduros
Ostian Industries Hand of Despair
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:09:00 -
[6403] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.
How are these things good for anoms with a bastion running? You get almost no extra projection from bastion and you are stuck for a minute at a time. I'll tell you how it's gonna work: you will die in a fire when someone warps on you because you are stuck for 60sec.
There are 2 winners here. The paladin that can now bring death because tachs do great dmg. The other is the kronos as it can use neutrons finally, very situational I'd say, but stupid dps. The varg is not good compared to those 2 because arti sucks and you need movement for AC. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8306
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:19:00 -
[6404] - Quote
Hanna Cyrus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it? Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around. The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics. Would you use it for PvP? Can you afford it? I can't. I would use a nano Phoon, it does the job, is much more mobile and can fit the MJD as a O **** button too. The Problem with a marauder in PVP is that a t1 hull can it cheaper. Besides i don't like that any sub class ship is immune to something, immunity is not the solution, even a module that nails you on the ground. But it's advertising, so it will hit us Nov. 19. no matter what we will post here.
Yes I will be using them and yes I can afford it. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8306
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:20:00 -
[6405] - Quote
Enduros wrote:baltec1 wrote: Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.
How are these things good for anoms with a bastion running? You get almost no extra projection from bastion and you are stuck for a minute at a time. I'll tell you how it's gonna work: you will die in a fire when someone warps on you because you are stuck for 60sec. There are 2 winners here. The paladin that can now bring death because tachs do great dmg. The other is the kronos as it can use neutrons finally, very situational I'd say, but stupid dps. The varg is not good compared to those 2 because arti sucks and you need movement for AC.
Kronos in dek for me. |

Mr Holla
Dragon's Rage Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:30:00 -
[6406] - Quote
after reading a fair few posts i see ppl complaining with no real Fixers to the problem,... the 5 turrents and smaller damage bonus for the rolls is a nice idea but i dont think CCP likes the idea of giving out more damage output
so this is my take which i hope will be the best of both worlds :) TQ marauders with bastion link below My Idea for Marauders https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3762020&#post3762020 |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:45:00 -
[6407] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.
This is their selling point over t1.
'more damage' is subjective.
When considering raw dps potential of t1, faction, pirate, and marauder, marauders have the lowest max dps potential of the groups listed.
Considering that most of the time t1 -> faction = raw dmg increase t1 -> pirate = raw dmg increase t1 -> t2 = raw dmg increase
i find it irritating that for battleships, t1 ->t2 = dmg decrease.
Also: * many ppl enjoy the exclusive looting bonus from the tractors * a subset of pve ppl like taking advantage of short range weapons * most currently use them for pve
CCP: * releases a looting structure * gives them a long range focus * nerfs dmg potential to add a gimmicky PvP component, that may see limited, if any, use.
I could live with marauders if ccp would do one of the following: a) give them drone bandwidth and bay over t1 b) give raw wep dmg advantages over t1 c) give raw dmg increases in bastion mode d) give sp equal to / refund points invested into marauders + allow a BS of my choice to be redeemed. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8306
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:55:00 -
[6408] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.
This is their selling point over t1. 'more damage' is subjective.
They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers. |

Kate stark
683
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 14:10:00 -
[6409] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kate stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas. unfortunately, none of them in an area that doesn't just make them better at what they're already relegated to. or, so it seems. i know that looking at them, and the ccp comments on them, i have no reason to pick one for incursions over a pirate hull even after the pirate rebalance. Well lets be honest here, they are a ship with bonuses to local active tanks. They have never been the best choice for an RR fleet because they have always had a wasted bonus.
indeed, at the end of the day there will always be 1 type of ship for incursions because it's the best and bugger the rest. at least this way i haven't got to purchase a new hull and newer players won't have BS V as a rather large roadblock to joining incursions. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 14:32:00 -
[6410] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.
This is their selling point over t1. 'more damage' is subjective. They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers.
a red herring
"better range and more damage" is very different from "more damage at range". They still have the lowest raw dmg potential of combat BS t1, faction, and pirate alternatives in most cases, which is inconsistent with the way T2 ships have typically worked in combat lines throughout the game. |
|

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
105
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:05:00 -
[6411] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Every time i would see a vargur in bastion i would get a scanner, a ceptor and some arties. You just have to coordinate alpha and it dies. A double LASB on TQ was already hard to beat for a gang. but alpha always did the job. Now with this fat cow marauders you just need to identify the fitting and it is dead.
OFC a gang of those marauders is a hard nut to crack, but a gang of them would be much more dangerous if they would move and rr each other. Awesome resists, buffer against alpha and quite good damage.
A solo marauder might not be beaten by a small pvp group, but it will kill nothing either. You just have to fly away, turn your face to him and scream: Ha ha. So boring.
Then you will come with the argument, the marauder will come with the new e-war frigates. Yeah, but then they will ignore the marauder and kill the other stuff first.
A bastioned Marauder has like 150k EHP if they overload their hardeners. You're not going to alpha it down. |

Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax2
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:15:00 -
[6412] - Quote
For lvl 4s these marauders are now isk kings.
Kill, loot, salvage all at the same time. No more pesky TD, damps, or jamming to slow you down.
If you pay attn the cost to gank you will be much higher... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8307
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:22:00 -
[6413] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.
This is their selling point over t1. 'more damage' is subjective. They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers. a red herring "better range and more damage" is very different from "more damage at range". They still have the lowest raw dmg potential of combat BS t1, faction, and pirate alternatives in most cases, which is inconsistent with the way T2 ships have typically worked in combat lines throughout the game.
At range the marauder will out damage most other BS. As has been said, they have more damage, just not by giving them a blanket buff. Todays snipers cannot match the power projection of these new marauders. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:46:00 -
[6414] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:baltec1 wrote:The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics. I have to admit I am with baltec at this one. I couldn't be arsed to setup SiSI but judging from published stats those ships are going to be no worse for what I do now (mostly mission running), if not just much better.
I lol'd just a bit at this. Like this is really some shocking conclusion about how PvP players are not complaining about a new toy being added to their toybox with no strings attached, while some PvE players who have already invested in these hulls are complaining because a PvE ship was removed from their toybox?
hmskrecik wrote: For the record, as of now pirate battleships already outperform marauders and CCP has stated that in the grand scheme it's going to be this way. Deal with it.
Concerning PvE performance, there are certain advantages you currently get in using marauders over pirates. Ultimately from the PvE perspective, dmg / speed / "fill in the blank stat", is secondary compared to isk per hour.
For example, a lvl 4 mission runner in a mach is cant loot very well compared to the vargur and doesnt run faction ammo very cost efficiently (my paper estimates show a net loss compared to faster completion times and reduced ammo usage from increased dmg per shot). The Vargur makes a clear net gain by running RF ammo. Concerning gun dmg, vargur with RF can deal more raw gun dmg than a mach using t1 ammo. Granted the mach still gets better drone dmg + better clear time, but you dont really need to loot all that much per hour to make up the difference + you can play the indy side with the mats gained to make additional profits on what you've looted.
Now CCP gives other BS's the ability to loot, which not only essentially nerfs that existing advantage, but nerfs the indy gains as well. Also, by making these excel at long ranges, they continue to put a damper on the looting benefit these ships currently hold. On top of this, they further widened the dmg gap between marauders an other battleships.
hmskrecik wrote: Also I don't remember anyone stating they are supposed to be used in large fleets.
And with proposed changes they seem to have acquired some PVP viability, for solo and small gangs. To the extent that I, carebear since day one, would consider grabbing one and, excuse a pun, gate crashing a camp or two. Would I burn in fire? Hell yeah! But at least I'd have a chance to have some actual fun.
Lastly, to all who propose alternative rebalancing, let me repeat what I wrote much earlier in this thread: assume your proposed changes went to TQ and now your enemy, griefers, competing incursion fleet, etc, had launched operation against you with your marauders. What can you do to counter? If the only correct answer is "bring more marauders" then your change is NOT balanced.
So let me get this straight and i know pirates are up for a rebalance so for the sake of argument, let's say a large fleet of navy faction ships appears... At this point, you say you wouldnt bring marauders, so your only correct answer on the BS level assuming number of players are equal, is to bring more navy faction ships. If they were a large group of pirate ships, your only answer is bring more pirate ships.
Alternatively, the PvE side of things has some balance at this point. TQ marauders have their uses in incursions and lvl 4s. Pirates have their uses in both as well. Much of this is going to go away for "some PVP viability, for solo and small gangs"...although i might reword: limited PvP viability in some small gangs... No thanks CCP. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:20:00 -
[6415] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.
This is their selling point over t1. 'more damage' is subjective. They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers. a red herring "better range and more damage" is very different from "more damage at range". They still have the lowest raw dmg potential of combat BS t1, faction, and pirate alternatives in most cases, which is inconsistent with the way T2 ships have typically worked in combat lines throughout the game. At range the marauder will out damage most other BS. As has been said, they have more damage, just not by giving them a blanket buff. Todays snipers cannot match the power projection of these new marauders.
again, they dont get "more damage" they get "more damage at range" and even then its not much more considering the ranges... just for arguments sake, If I were to load up a vargur will as many range mods as I could within pg and cpu, and fit 1400 artys to both the mach and the vargur, the range would be the same.. only the mach does more gun dmg, has better drone bandwidth/bay, is faster, and has a better align. If you activate bastion, the vargur gains 4+1 over the mach and only meets the dps difference at around the 250-255km mark with short range ammo... In terms of maximums, the mach still beats the vargur esp when you consider mach movement vs stationary bastion mode. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:43:00 -
[6416] - Quote
For the sake of argument.
T2 hulls are above navy hulls (in general), but below pirate hulls, since they're specialized in an area (marauding, looting).
I'm ok with my extremely long SP investment - over 2 months for the Vargur, after I had my level 5 battleship, and over 4 months to get a proper Tachyon Paladin working . It took me long to get these ships, and have they been worth it? To some extent. However, I have to argue, that these ships should be somewhat more powerful than their T1 counterparts. See the HAC vs T1 cruiser variants. HACs are more expensive, but they have better damage, better tank, better damage application.
Now, as for battleships, having that raw increase would be way too much. Marauders have better tanks and better damage projection, but their damage should at the very least be equal to that of the T1 counterpart,their raw damage, guns/launchers and drones, ideally ever-so-slightly improved raw damage to keep in line with other T2s, but under their Pirate Faction comparable variant.
However, my biggest gripe, other than the damage (which the Vargur, and most Minmatar ships actually suffer), is that all Marauders are shoehorned into the same role, racial-roles and advantages be forgotten (be damned actually). All I want is for my Vargur to feel like a matari ship, actually truly powerful, or like the description says:
Quote:Boundless CreationGÇÖs ships are based on the Brutor TribeGÇÖs philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential. Yet ironically the Vargur is the weakest of the bunch, with the smallest tank, and also the furthest form it's description.
Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:59:00 -
[6417] - Quote
Yep Serge SC, that what i am saying the whole time.
- Cruise Golem: range increase absolutely not needed, but in theory it enhances the ability to inflict damage linear.
- Torp Golem: range increase absolutely welcome, but if you have not much range 25% means not much more. Still, the bonus increases the ability to inflict damage. But there is no bonus to better damage application.
- Kronos: Best damage done close range. But optimal increase of rails help to apply damage better, because you can avoid shooting in falloff. Loss of web decreases applied damage in very close range.
- Paladin: awesome increase of applied damage through good increase in optimal, because you can avoid shooting in falloff.
- AC Vargur: Fall-off bonus delivers nearly no increase in applied damage. To hurt with this ship you need to stay closer then 30 km / 3-5 x optimal
- Arty vargur: Bonus is welcome, no comparison to TQ possible. Arties just very slow. The high cycle time is terrible if you miss your target.
|

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 17:39:00 -
[6418] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Marauders are shoehorned into the same role, racial-roles and advantages be forgotten (be damned actually). All I want is for my Vargur to feel like a matari ship, actually truly powerful, or like the description says: Quote:Boundless CreationGÇÖs ships are based on the Brutor TribeGÇÖs philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential. Yet ironically the Vargur is the weakest of the bunch, with the smallest tank, and also the furthest form it's description.
good point..
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As such, after much internal and CSM discussion, we have designed Marauders with two modes of operation, specialized in harassing tactics.
why do you not focus on Black Ops "use to pVp" instead of marauders (used to be PvE oriented) ?!? for example make them "bastion"ed so both pVp and PvE community may be happy imho.. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8307
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:05:00 -
[6419] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:
why do you not focus on Black Ops "use to pVp" instead of marauders (used to be PvE oriented) ?!? for example make them "bastion"ed so both pVp and PvE community may be happy imho..
PVE pilots will never be happy because they always want an overpowered ship.
What we are getting is much better at pve as it can do a lot more of it than the old one. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8307
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:11:00 -
[6420] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: I have to argue, that these ships should be somewhat more powerful than their T1 counterparts.
More range, better cap, immunity to ewar, 3-4 spare high slots to play with, high resists and the biggest active tank outside of capital ships.
|
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:25:00 -
[6421] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
why do you not focus on Black Ops "use to pVp" instead of marauders (used to be PvE oriented) ?!? for example make them "bastion"ed so both pVp and PvE community may be happy imho..
PVE pilots will never be happy because they always want an overpowered ship. What we are getting is much better at pve as it can do a lot more of it than the old one. Thing is, in my case, I don't want an overpowered ship. Sure, I'd love to have a roflstomping ship that I can rickroll around but that's not the point.
I want my Marauder, and by consequences all those months of training, to mean something, to actually represent the ship I set as a goal over 2 years ago when I joined EVE. But after using it (I'm on it right now), I feel disappointed. Sure it has lots of potential, but I feel like bastion isn't the solution. I don't mind how it works right now, but why do we get the largest mass, the lower DPS, the weaker tank...
Perhaps I'm seeing this the wrong way, and the issue lies in the guns themselves (800s lack a punch, but are decent tracking-to-damage ratio - 1200s are useless for anything other than too-tight-to-fit-1400s, and 1400s are awesome alpha but the cycle time is longer than the largest capital gun in the game...which makes no sense). Especially considering how many times I've read or heard that Minmatar battleships are lackluster compared to the other races, beside the alpha potential of Maelstroms.
On that note.
Dear CCP,
Can you please look into the logic of 1400s? We're shooting small cars at people, sure. But 3500s are shooting buses at people, and even then, 3500s reload faster than our car-shooting gun. At least match the cycle times so that it makes more sense, which would leave alpha as it iss, but allow to match artilleries to beams in paper DPS. Keep our terrible tracking...I can live with that to keep it "balanced"/ Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

baltec1
Bat Country
8307
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:28:00 -
[6422] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:
Perhaps I'm seeing this the wrong way, and the issue lies in the guns/
I admit to not being a fan of large projectiles. |

The Rincewind
Galaxos Schild Schmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:36:00 -
[6423] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:Serge SC wrote:Marauders are shoehorned into the same role, racial-roles and advantages be forgotten (be damned actually). All I want is for my Vargur to feel like a matari ship, actually truly powerful, or like the description says: Quote:Boundless CreationGÇÖs ships are based on the Brutor TribeGÇÖs philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential. Yet ironically the Vargur is the weakest of the bunch, with the smallest tank, and also the furthest form it's description. good point.. CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As such, after much internal and CSM discussion, we have designed Marauders with two modes of operation, specialized in harassing tactics.
why do you not focus on Black Ops "use to pVp" instead of marauders (used to be PvE oriented) ?!? for example make them "bastion"ed so both pVp and PvE community may be happy imho..
+ I totally agree |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:10:00 -
[6424] - Quote
'Dear CCP,
Can you please look into the logic of 1400s? We're shooting small cars at people, sure. But 3500s are shooting buses at people, and even then, 3500s reload faster than our car-shooting gun. At least match the cycle times so that it makes more sense, which would leave alpha as it iss, but allow to match artilleries to beams in paper DPS. Keep our terrible tracking...I can live with that to keep it "balanced"/'
^^ Truth 1400mm need faster ROF(few seconds) to up the truly bad dps so they can become usable in more than blobbing and shooting ships on AP.
So that arty start being viable for rest of pvp situations and all possible pve that is in this game hell i would accept cap usage on them(slowish ROF should offset that).
Vargur as lowest dps lowest range boost and static in bastion rly is sad story to the point that if you do bastion you are doing it wrong.
imo. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:42:00 -
[6425] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:So that arty start being viable for rest of pvp situations and all possible pve that is in this game hell i would accept cap usage on them(slowish ROF should offset that).
Vargur as lowest dps lowest range boost and static in bastion rly is sad story to the point that if you do bastion you are doing it wrong.
imo.
Right now my vargur would end up at 842 DPS from guns and 105 dps from two bouncer.
[Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 100MN Afterburner II Large Micro Jump Drive
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector II
Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2
The MJD would force me to fight between 120 and 60 km. and i would end up with 450 (120km) - 800 dps (60km). BUT after flying with it, it seems necessary to unstack all guns and use them one by one. And even with maxed skills and implants the 1400 sometimes miss a BS which flies straight at you. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 20:14:00 -
[6426] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:So that arty start being viable for rest of pvp situations and all possible pve that is in this game hell i would accept cap usage on them(slowish ROF should offset that).
Vargur as lowest dps lowest range boost and static in bastion rly is sad story to the point that if you do bastion you are doing it wrong.
imo. Right now my vargur would end up at 842 DPS from guns and 105 dps from two bouncer. [Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 100MN Afterburner II Large Micro Jump Drive 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II [empty high slot] Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector IIWarrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 The MJD would force me to fight between 120 and 60 km. and i would end up with 450 (120km) - 800 dps (60km). BUT after flying with it, it seems necessary to unstack all guns and use them one by one. And even with maxed skills and implants the 1400 sometimes miss a BS which flies straight at you.
4 faction gyros and t2 burst rig...it is truly shame it cant brake 1000(900 even) dps mark.
Also from years running incursions with various ships i KNOW you need 4 tracking mods and tracking implant to make 1400mm semi viable to anything that manage to come closer. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:25:00 -
[6427] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:hmskrecik wrote:I have to admit I am with baltec at this one. I couldn't be arsed to setup SiSI but judging from published stats those ships are going to be no worse for what I do now (mostly mission running), if not just much better. I lol'd just a bit at this. Like this is really some shocking conclusion about how PvP players are not complaining about a new toy being added to their toybox with no strings attached, while some PvE players who have already invested in these hulls are complaining because a PvE ship was removed from their toybox? Not sure what's your argument here so let me just itemize how do I see those new marauders: - worse at running incursions (disputable but let's settle on that for sake of discussion) + same or better at running missions + probably better at wh sites + reportedly better at anoms + stopped sucking at small scale PVP - still suck at large scale PVP (?)
Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, ships gain more uses in overall.
Quote:hmskrecik wrote: For the record, as of now pirate battleships already outperform marauders and CCP has stated that in the grand scheme it's going to be this way. Deal with it.
Concerning PvE performance, there are certain advantages you currently get in using marauders over pirates. Ultimately from the PvE perspective, dmg / speed / "fill in the blank stat", is secondary compared to isk per hour. I am flying Kronos, Vargur, Vindicator and Machariel so what I stated has been taken from my personal experience. And the funny thing is that even when pirate BS yield me more ISK/hr (I tend not to loot/salvage), I still prefer to use marauders due to their versatility. My point is, performance is important but it's not everything, the point which people crying for more damage output seem to be missing.
Quote:So let me get this straight and i know pirates are up for a rebalance so for the sake of argument, let's say a large fleet of navy faction ships appears... At this point, you say you wouldnt bring marauders, so your only correct answer on the BS level assuming number of players are equal, is to bring more navy faction ships. If they were a large group of pirate ships, your only answer is bring more pirate ships.
Alternatively, the PvE side of things has some balance at this point. TQ marauders have their uses in incursions and lvl 4s. Pirates have their uses in both as well. Much of this is going to go away for "some PVP viability, for solo and small gangs"...although i might reword: limited PvP viability in some small gangs... No thanks CCP. We're talking limited viability vs. no viability at all.
As to your earlier point I'd like to explain that what I stated is the most basic test which should be applied when you propose some rebalancing. Anyone can go up with something awesome knowing how he or she would use it. The question is, what would you do AGAINST this wonder? When put it this way, it's very easy to filter interesting proposals from "I WIN" buttons.
And answering your scenario, I know crap about PVP but yes, I would bring Rubicon marauders. With the exception of "large fleet"part as I don't believe they do and should fit there. But for smaller engagements they seem to have some strengths and some weaknesses which should cause some interesting deliberations whether to bring them to fight or not. As opposed to today's "nope, don't bother". |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:33:00 -
[6428] - Quote
Quote:[SISI VARG] Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Salvager II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Core Defense Field Extender II
This is my fitting.
Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II Total DPS 1095
Works well, but has terribad tracking and the worst DPS from any marauder. Also, implants and some miracles. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:34:00 -
[6429] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:4 faction gyros and t2 burst rig...it is truly shame it cant brake 1000(900 even) dps mark. Even Vindicator does not break 1000dps with long range guns (Machariel too, for that matter). And your point is? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:38:00 -
[6430] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II Total DPS 1095
Works well, but has terribad tracking and the worst DPS from any marauder. Also, implants and some miracles. Excuse me, but if you use artillery on falloff bonused hull, you're doing it wrong. On TQ my AC Vargur kills faster in 50-60km range than rail Kronos. And the closer the merrier. |
|

Shaun Hansen
Corporation Danmark Tactical Narcotics Team
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:47:00 -
[6431] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:The MJD changes? fantastic. Grid changes? great. The extra high slot? meh but good deal. The 'just falloff and tracking' kind gives some turret types a much larger bonus, versus the missile one which is huge.
You are also missing the main bonus to the idea of 'mini-dreads': huge damage increases. Otherwise this is just a minor ammo type change.
My point excactly. Where is the good stuff? Toss us some bonuses. Lets try with additional 100% bonus to damage of the guns. Imagine forsaken hubs with 16 battleship sized blasters. Ratting will never be the same again  |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:50:00 -
[6432] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
why do you not focus on Black Ops "use to pVp" instead of marauders (used to be PvE oriented) ?!? for example make them "bastion"ed so both pVp and PvE community may be happy imho..
PVE pilots will never be happy because they always want an overpowered ship. What we are getting is much better at pve as it can do a lot more of it than the old one.
are you a pVp-er or PvE-er ? because i cant understand a pVp-er who interested in changing "used to be PvE oriented" ships to sub-capital dreads? it is better for you to be interested in "most welcome and long waited by nullfolks" re-working/balancing Black OPs, isnt it?
i never like Overpowered classes, items, spells, abilities etc in games.. both PVE and PVP.. so you are wrong, that "PVE pilots" you pointed, i am not one of them.. but i am sure most of PVPer are in search of the best, the stronger, the most deadly, the overpowered.. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 22:25:00 -
[6433] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:This is my fitting. Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II Total DPS 1095 Works well, but has terribad tracking and the worst DPS from any marauder. Also, implants and some miracles.
- Your Vargur can't target beyond 94 km which sucks for a sniper fitting bigtime.
- Your paper DPS is even more terrible then mine. With RF FUSION 936.6 dps after jumping 100km with MJD reduce to 561 DPS without the chance to set damage type. You should stay with faction ammo
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 22:30:00 -
[6434] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:what implant u got?
Genolution set EO-605 MR-705 EM-805 SS-905 LP-1005 |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 22:38:00 -
[6435] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Quote:[SISI VARG] Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Quake L Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Salvager II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Core Defense Field Extender II This is my fitting. Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II Total DPS 1095 Works well, but has terribad tracking and the worst DPS from any marauder. Also, implants and some miracles.
Excuse me but what the hell are you doing?
The point of bastion is to have SPARE MID SLOTS. You have 2 too many tanking modules that can be converted into 2 more TCs with tracking scripts or a TC and a Sebo for lock range/scan res. Or if you really want to more optimal range.
If you have to do this, do it right.
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
451
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 23:05:00 -
[6436] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:4 faction gyros and t2 burst rig...it is truly shame it cant brake 1000(900 even) dps mark. Even Vindicator does not break 1000dps with long range guns (Machariel too, for that matter). And your point is?
My point is that artys are bad weapon except niche role and it still stands.
1000 dps
As you see Vindicator does 1000 dps with guns only(faction ammo included)
Mach is over 900(0) too and since it uses same low dps arty it isn't great but at least it is high enough with solid drone bay and implants to out dps battlecruizers.
So did you had a point beside being wrong ?
"This is my fitting.
Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II Total DPS 1095"
Implanted stats it doesn't do nearly as much gun dps. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 23:37:00 -
[6437] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Serge SC wrote:This is my fitting. Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II Total DPS 1095 Works well, but has terribad tracking and the worst DPS from any marauder. Also, implants and some miracles.
- Your Vargur can't target beyond 94 km which sucks for a sniper fitting bigtime.
- Your paper DPS is even more terrible then mine. With RF FUSION 936.6 dps after jumping 100km with MJD reduce to 561 DPS without the chance to set damage type. You should stay with faction ammo
It's the best DPS I can get with 1400s, with a LP-1006 and a RF-906 to boost it.
Targeting range is 101km (the maximum). How are you getting more damage with that ammo? With RF versions, which is what I mostly use, I get 923.3 DPS, with max skills.
When MJD around, I use RF DU for a paper DPS of 615.5 at 90km optimal (tremor has too much range which is a waste in this case) Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 23:41:00 -
[6438] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Excuse me but what the hell are you doing?
The point of bastion is to have SPARE MID SLOTS. You have 2 too many tanking modules that can be converted into 2 more TCs with tracking scripts or a TC and a Sebo for lock range/scan res. Or if you really want to more optimal range.
If you have to do this, do it right.
It's not fit properly, that's my current TQ setup (bar the guns, which are 800s and a MWD).
Trying to keep everything equal, and the ship doesn't measure up to the other marauders.
I dropped 2 tank mods, 1 invul and the boost amp, went Pithum-B Invul, and Pithum-A medium shield booster. Tank is decent still. I can hit further, scan better, longer targeting range, track better, whatever. But my paper DPS hasn't gone up by a single point... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 23:54:00 -
[6439] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Not sure what's your argument here so let me just itemize how do I see those new marauders: - worse at running incursions (disputable but let's settle on that for sake of discussion) + same or better at running missions + probably better at wh sites + reportedly better at anoms + stopped sucking at small scale PVP - still suck at large scale PVP (?)
Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, ships gain more uses in overall.
Your assessment is incorrect. The easy summary is: * dmg application stayed the same (save projection in bastion). * Total raw dps potential nerfed * mobility nerfed * loot exclusiveness lost
basically, the only things you will do better in this: * PvE content with high EWAR * PvE content that would require a very heavy tank, but not require logistics (level 5s for example).
Anything else will take longer than it did before, esp in short range setups
hmskrecik wrote: I am flying Kronos, Vargur, Vindicator and Machariel so what I stated has been taken from my personal experience. And the funny thing is that even when pirate BS yield me more ISK/hr (I tend not to loot/salvage), I still prefer to use marauders due to their versatility. My point is, performance is important but it's not everything, the point which people crying for more damage output seem to be missing.
No. Isk per hour is the most important part of missions. This shouldn't even be up for discussion. This is why ppl generally do 4s or what have you in fancy battleships and not assault frigs. This is also why terms like "overtanked" exist for mission runners.
If you did loot / salvage as you go, you could make up / more than make up the difference (provided you aren't unfortunate enough to get bombarded by drone missions, and dont stick around to loot and salvage the entire room, just the stuff you can get while clearing while prioritizing battleship loot/salvage).
hmskrecik wrote: We're talking limited viability vs. no viability at all.
To be fair there are ppl who have used marauders for PvP. The general tactic is using smartbombs in the highs to kill off ecm drones and hopefully make up for the poor sensor strength. I am in no way saying that marauders are an ideal choice, but to each their own.
You are also talking about a ship that doesnt really have much of an existing role in the PvP world, but one that does in the PvE world. We are talking about trying to add gimmicky and not yet established PvP roles, at the expensive of the ships' already established PvE role.
hmskrecik wrote: As to your earlier point I'd like to explain that what I stated is the most basic test which should be applied when you propose some rebalancing. Anyone can go up with something awesome knowing how he or she would use it. The question is, what would you do AGAINST this wonder? When put it this way, it's very easy to filter interesting proposals from "I WIN" buttons.
And answering your scenario, I know crap about PVP but yes, I would bring Rubicon marauders. With the exception of "large fleet"part as I don't believe they do and should fit there. But for smaller engagements they seem to have some strengths and some weaknesses which should cause some interesting deliberations whether to bring them to fight or not. As opposed to today's "nope, don't bother".
Hmmm... maybe throw it at you a different way: You say that you wouldnt want to use in large fleet battles, presumably because when you activate bastion you will be alpha'd if the fleet is large enough. The other side to this is that in smaller numbers, the tank is beastly. What you have is a "Can't Lose" button if the numbers are small enough or maybe more accurately: "Can't lose within a reasonable amount of time" button and isnt balanced either. Adding additional dmg doesnt necessarily change this ship from "Cant Lose" to "I WIN". A dmg increase doesnt need to shove pirates out of their "raw damage kings" or "speed demons" title. What it does do is help preserve existing/already established marauder roles.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 00:20:00 -
[6440] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: It's the best DPS I can get with 1400s, with a LP-1006 and a RF-906 to boost it.
Targeting range is 101km (the maximum). How are you getting more damage with that ammo? With RF versions, which is what I mostly use, I get 923.3 DPS, with max skills.
When MJD around, I use RF DU for a paper DPS of 615.5 at 90km optimal (tremor has too much range which is a waste in this case)
Sorry man, totally my fault in stupid writing. That makes more sense:
Your paper DPS is even more terrible then mine with RF FUSION. 936.6 dps with quake after jumping 100km with MJD reduce to 561 DPS without the chance to set damage type. You should stay with faction ammo.
Arties just are not meant for the vargur due to the fall off bonus on the hull. they were never supposed to be fitted there and used in PvE. They were always heavy one shots in PvP. At least at the moment the vargur was released. Giving the PG to use 1400s with the vargur but not fixing the coherence of both is another problem i notice now. I never used arties in missions. Maybe within the first 3 month of my eve playtime, when we flew blockades in badly skilled arty maels with multiple warpouts to survive the mission :D. |
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 01:03:00 -
[6441] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote: Arties just are not meant for the vargur due to the fall off bonus on the hull. they were never supposed to be fitted there and used in PvE. They were always heavy one shots in PvP. At least at the moment the vargur was released. Giving the PG to use 1400s with the vargur but not fixing the coherence of both is another problem i notice now. I never used arties in missions. Maybe within the first 3 month of my eve playtime, when we flew blockades in badly skilled arty maels with multiple warpouts to survive the mission :D.
Besides alpha'ing stuff, what are 1400s good for in that case?
I always used them since I'm cheap and they're cheaper to run. But they lack DPS, they aren't useful for pretty much anything...
So I'll make reference to the fact that 1400s need a RoF reduction, badly. Their alpha is fine, the raw damage is fine, but their rate of fire is terrible. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
819
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 01:27:00 -
[6442] - Quote
I wasn't aware that 1400s had a slower RoF than 3200s.
I was, however, around when they rebalanced projectiles and I vaguely recall reading a devblog about it explaining things. Maybe I can find it. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 02:09:00 -
[6443] - Quote
I have a question....
If arty suck so bad, then why is the tornado the best tier 3 bc? I mean, any time someone mentions the word gank, the tornado is the ship mentioned to perform it with. If they're good at ganks, expecially suicide ganks, the. I would think arty would be perfect for missions where you're essentially trying to use a little volleys as possible to down the target.
Edit...
Hell, if you're talking about ganking, people normally judge gank ability by the number of tornados it would take to pull it off. No other ship or weapon system is used like this, and last time I checked, they used arty for this. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 02:17:00 -
[6444] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I have a question....
If arty suck so bad, then why is the tornado the best tier 3 bc? I mean, any time someone mentions the word gank, the tornado is the ship mentioned to perform it with. If they're good at ganks, expecially suicide ganks, the. I would think arty would be perfect for missions where you're essentially trying to use a little volleys as possible to down the target.
Edit...
Hell, if you're talking about ganking, people normally judge gank ability by the number of tornados it would take to pull it off. No other ship or weapon system is used like this, and last time I checked, they used arty for this.
High alpha dmg ie initial hit gather enough "initial hits" and you will down internet space ship before it can react...
that is all they do there will never be 2nd shoot rof is bad tracking is worse range in mediocre t2 ammo is bad.
Edit
since you cant one shoot mission or any other activity for that matter you have rly bad weapon except being naughty at congested gates and / or blobbing . http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 02:24:00 -
[6445] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I have a question....
If arty suck so bad, then why is the tornado the best tier 3 bc? I mean, any time someone mentions the word gank, the tornado is the ship mentioned to perform it with. If they're good at ganks, expecially suicide ganks, the. I would think arty would be perfect for missions where you're essentially trying to use a little volleys as possible to down the target.
Edit...
Hell, if you're talking about ganking, people normally judge gank ability by the number of tornados it would take to pull it off. No other ship or weapon system is used like this, and last time I checked, they used arty for this. High alpha dmg ie initial hit gather enough "initial hits" and you will down internet space ship before it can react... that is all they do there will never be 2nd shoot rof is bad tracking is worse range in mediocre t2 ammo is bad. Edit since you cant one shoot mission or any other activity for that matter you have rly bad weapon except being naughty at congested gates and / or blobbing . High alpha potential. It means you can one-shot any ship, if you have enough ships to do it (as in one-volley with several ships).
1400 Arties suck because their RoF is slower than any other turret gun in game, even slower than 3500s. Their tracking is nonexistent and the range is fairly limited, for a long range weapon. Aurora on Tachs gets up to 250km, Tremor on 1400s can barely reach 200 (talking optimals alone). Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:29:00 -
[6446] - Quote
800 AC and 1400 Arties can both be very useful in PVE. In an ship with no range bonus, the AC will be more dps out to about 30km or so, where Arties start doing equal dps or more. Falloff helps Arties too, and you will get a wider damage range with more falloff. Optimal is better, but then the Bastion Module ads Optimal and Falloff. When you can use Barrage, you will end up doing comparable dps to Arties at longer ranges than all the other ammo types
I think most of you are confusing effective with boring. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8307
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:17:00 -
[6447] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:
are you a pVp-er or PvE-er ? because i cant understand a pVp-er who interested in changing "used to be PvE oriented" ships to sub-capital dreads? it is better for you to be interested in "most welcome and long waited by nullfolks" re-working/balancing Black OPs, isnt it?
Its a mega hull and as such has my utter attention. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:25:00 -
[6448] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:800 AC and 1400 Arties can both be very useful in PVE. In an ship with no range bonus, the AC will be more dps out to about 30km or so, where Arties start doing equal dps or more. Falloff helps Arties too, and you will get a wider damage range with more falloff. Optimal is better, but then the Bastion Module ads Optimal and Falloff. When you can use Barrage, you will end up doing comparable dps to Arties at longer ranges than all the other ammo types
I think most of you are confusing effective with boring.
arties have lowest dmg / tracking / range / rate of fire than ANY other long range weapon.
so i fail to see how weapon that take ages to fire have biggest miss ratio(by hefty margin) of them all and is so low on dmg that AC are overlapping with them in most usable ranges are very usable in PVE?
so if you are telling me that 800AC are better in 9 out of 10 situations than 1400mm i agree if not i didn't get your post at all.
boring have nothing to do with it.
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:50:00 -
[6449] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:800 AC and 1400 Arties can both be very useful in PVE. In an ship with no range bonus, the AC will be more dps out to about 30km or so, where Arties start doing equal dps or more. Falloff helps Arties too, and you will get a wider damage range with more falloff. Optimal is better, but then the Bastion Module ads Optimal and Falloff. When you can use Barrage, you will end up doing comparable dps to Arties at longer ranges than all the other ammo types
I think most of you are confusing effective with boring. arties have lowest dmg / tracking / range / rate of fire than ANY other long range weapon,i dont see a way how is that "very useful for PVE" so i fail to see how weapon that take ages to fire have biggest miss ratio(by hefty margin) of them all and is so low on dmg that AC are overlapping with them in most usable ranges are "very useful in PVE'? so if you are telling me that 800AC are better in 9 out of 10 situations than 1400mm i agree if not i didn't get your post at all. boring have nothing to do with it. does this guy looking bored
in most pve scenarios your rats are moving toward you at zero transversal where tracking isn't an issue. It is more boring, but I use both, and the Arties make just as much or more isk / hour. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:53:00 -
[6450] - Quote
TheFace Asano wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:TheFace Asano wrote:800 AC and 1400 Arties can both be very useful in PVE. In an ship with no range bonus, the AC will be more dps out to about 30km or so, where Arties start doing equal dps or more. Falloff helps Arties too, and you will get a wider damage range with more falloff. Optimal is better, but then the Bastion Module ads Optimal and Falloff. When you can use Barrage, you will end up doing comparable dps to Arties at longer ranges than all the other ammo types
I think most of you are confusing effective with boring. arties have lowest dmg / tracking / range / rate of fire than ANY other long range weapon,i dont see a way how is that "very useful for PVE" so i fail to see how weapon that take ages to fire have biggest miss ratio(by hefty margin) of them all and is so low on dmg that AC are overlapping with them in most usable ranges are "very useful in PVE'? so if you are telling me that 800AC are better in 9 out of 10 situations than 1400mm i agree if not i didn't get your post at all. boring have nothing to do with it. does this guy looking bored in most pve scenarios your rats are moving toward you at zero transversal where tracking isn't an issue. It is more boring, but I use both, and the Arties make just as much or more isk / hour.
ok
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
204
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 06:21:00 -
[6451] - Quote
Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Vulfen
Bio Tech.
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 07:21:00 -
[6452] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
CCP aren't really changing marauders though honestly. They are replacing a couple bonuses on the hulls and giving them extra fitting other than that they can be used in the same way as they were previously just with much better fittings and a couple extra options when it comes to fitting. Admittidly the web bonus was a big thing on the kronos and paladin but they have a tracking buff now so you could cope with a 60% web
I think if there is an issue with these ships it is with the gun systems they use, but CCP cant buff or nerf large weapon systems or it would mess the entire balance of power up. Because to Tier 3 BCs. the only thing they could do without messing it up is a small tracking buff across the board. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:05:00 -
[6453] - Quote
Not sure if this has been asked/answered, but is cargo capacity on the new Marauders the same as the old? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:07:00 -
[6454] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:
CCP aren't really changing marauders though honestly. They are replacing a couple bonuses on the hulls and giving them extra fitting other than that they can be used in the same way as they were previously just with much better fittings and a couple extra options when it comes to fitting. Admittidly the web bonus was a big thing on the kronos and paladin but they have a tracking buff now so you could cope with a 60% web
I think if there is an issue with these ships it is with the gun systems they use, but CCP cant buff or nerf large weapon systems or it would mess the entire balance of power up. Because to Tier 3 BCs. the only thing they could do without messing it up is a small tracking buff across the board.
The whole concept is just a bit crappy. IF CCP would have said "We introduce more CPU and Fitting potential and we decided to give em the T2 resists they deserve" everyone would be happy. If they had said "and we fix the poor sensor strength and scan resolution" everyone would be even more excited. And if ccp would argue, that with this buffs the marauder need a nerf i would have understood it. A general reduction of 25m-¦ drone bandwidth to all ships would be a reduction in effective DPS and more then enough to justify the changes.
But no, they had to create a module which makes you stationary, which in itself is a huge drawback. It is the ultimate BS sized defensive module on a ship class tending to be over tanked already. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
204
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:27:00 -
[6455] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
CCP aren't really changing marauders though honestly. They are replacing a couple bonuses on the hulls and giving them extra fitting other than that they can be used in the same way as they were previously just with much better fittings and a couple extra options when it comes to fitting. Admittidly the web bonus was a big thing on the kronos and paladin but they have a tracking buff now so you could cope with a 60% web I think if there is an issue with these ships it is with the gun systems they use, but CCP cant buff or nerf large weapon systems or it would mess the entire balance of power up. Because to Tier 3 BCs. the only thing they could do without messing it up is a small tracking buff across the board.
The issue I mostly have is that I use marauders on a daily basis(I got and fly all of them), and would have little use for them after the changes, since bastion is pointless for me(it slows me down, I don't need the extra active tank, the range and tracking bonuses are eaten up by stacking etc.) and mjd not worth the slot over a mwd and they get considerable worse just for the ability to utilize both.
I don't really see the issue, people that think bastion and mjd will suit them can get them and people have no use for this at all can stick with the ships they fly since years. Having not a single one of the actual problems of marauders even touched might be a bitter result for a balance patch(however it is nothing new, see hybrids) but at the end of the day it is still better then selling the hulls, consider marauder 5 as wasted SP and calling it a day.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
921
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:29:00 -
[6456] - Quote
The Djego wrote:consider marauder 5 as wasted SP and calling it a day.
If you use Marauders every day, then Marauders V wasn't a waste of skill points. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:48:00 -
[6457] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The Djego wrote:consider marauder 5 as wasted SP and calling it a day.
If you use Marauders every day, then Marauders V wasn't a waste of skill points.
It will be with the changes, at least to me. It isn't even the SP(I also have large blaster spec 5 and completely ditched blaster BS with the changes in 2008), what I dislike is that hulls that are in the game since 6 years get geared to something else, what is not really useful to me and a lot other people flying marauders currently. I have no problem selling all my marauders at patch day and getting new ones, just for the sake of having the same thing after the patch then I have now. I see no harm in this, or any kind of downside for eve to keep the old marauders as a 2. marauder BS. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:49:00 -
[6458] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:4 faction gyros and t2 burst rig...it is truly shame it cant brake 1000(900 even) dps mark. Even Vindicator does not break 1000dps with long range guns (Machariel too, for that matter). And your point is? My point is that artys are bad weapon except niche role and it still stands. 1000 dpsAs you see Vindicator does 1000 dps with guns only(faction ammo included) Mach is over 900(0) too and since it uses same low dps arty it isn't great but at least it is high enough with solid drone bay and implants to out dps battlecruizers. So did you had a point beside being wrong ? Ah, okay. I checked with tech 2 magstabs instead of faction.
My point, beside being corrected, is that marauders are not supposed to have bigger dps than pirate battleships. Ask CCP if you have any doubts. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:58:00 -
[6459] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Vulfen wrote:
CCP aren't really changing marauders though honestly. They are replacing a couple bonuses on the hulls and giving them extra fitting other than that they can be used in the same way as they were previously just with much better fittings and a couple extra options when it comes to fitting. Admittidly the web bonus was a big thing on the kronos and paladin but they have a tracking buff now so you could cope with a 60% web
I think if there is an issue with these ships it is with the gun systems they use, but CCP cant buff or nerf large weapon systems or it would mess the entire balance of power up. Because to Tier 3 BCs. the only thing they could do without messing it up is a small tracking buff across the board.
The whole concept is just a bit crappy. IF CCP would have said "We introduce more CPU and Fitting potential and we decided to give em the T2 resists they deserve" everyone would be happy. If they had said "and we fix the poor sensor strength and scan resolution" everyone would be even more excited. And if ccp would argue, that with this buffs the marauder need a nerf i would have understood it. A general reduction of 25m-¦ drone bandwidth to all ships would be a reduction in effective DPS and more then enough to justify the changes. But no, they had to create a module which makes you stationary, which in itself is a huge drawback. It is the ultimate BS sized defensive module on a ship class tending to be over tanked already.
When I mentioned this by writing it point-by-point, people "zZZzzzzZz"ed on me and found this "not interesting". Some of people here have some interest in stationary object. Only thing that makes it different from a sentry dominix is, IMO, e-war immunity. Nothing more. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8310
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 09:09:00 -
[6460] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Vulfen wrote:
CCP aren't really changing marauders though honestly. They are replacing a couple bonuses on the hulls and giving them extra fitting other than that they can be used in the same way as they were previously just with much better fittings and a couple extra options when it comes to fitting. Admittidly the web bonus was a big thing on the kronos and paladin but they have a tracking buff now so you could cope with a 60% web
I think if there is an issue with these ships it is with the gun systems they use, but CCP cant buff or nerf large weapon systems or it would mess the entire balance of power up. Because to Tier 3 BCs. the only thing they could do without messing it up is a small tracking buff across the board.
The whole concept is just a bit crappy. IF CCP would have said "We introduce more CPU and Fitting potential and we decided to give em the T2 resists they deserve" everyone would be happy. If they had said "and we fix the poor sensor strength and scan resolution" everyone would be even more excited. And if ccp would argue, that with this buffs the marauder need a nerf i would have understood it. A general reduction of 25m-¦ drone bandwidth to all ships would be a reduction in effective DPS and more then enough to justify the changes. But no, they had to create a module which makes you stationary, which in itself is a huge drawback. It is the ultimate BS sized defensive module on a ship class tending to be over tanked already. When I mentioned this by writing it point-by-point, people "zZZzzzzZz"ed on me and found this "not interesting". Some of people here have some interest in stationary object. Only thing that makes it different from a sentry dominix is, IMO, e-war immunity. Nothing more.
Yep, the biggest active tank outside of capitals will have no impact! |
|

loles
The Oregon Mining Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 09:15:00 -
[6461] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
What's the point of having tractor bonuses at 40km with an MJD jumping at 100km? With the current implementation I can't see tractor beams used unless MJD isn't used. I think this bonus needs consideration or simply being replaced with something else. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 09:58:00 -
[6462] - Quote
loles wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
What's the point of having tractor bonuses at 40km with an MJD jumping at 100km? With the current implementation I can't see tractor beams used unless MJD isn't used. I think this bonus needs consideration or simply being replaced with something else.
well said... |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 09:58:00 -
[6463] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Your assessment is incorrect. The easy summary is: * dmg application stayed the same (save projection in bastion). * Total raw dps potential nerfed * mobility nerfed * loot exclusiveness lost
basically, the only things you will do better in this: * PvE content with high EWAR * PvE content that would require a very heavy tank, but not require logistics (level 5s for example).
Anything else will take longer than it did before, esp in short range setups
Gosh, those forum rules about quotations...
I understand you discuss marauders without bastion activated. OK, so be it. * raw dps slightly lowered, though on Vargur it has already been lost to me as I used AB setup, so no sentries anyway. * mobility is give-and-take. Please don't forget the MJD bonus works even without bastion installed and increased PG/CPU means you can easily fit AB or MWD (maybe even all three prop mods, if you so fancy) * about loot exclusivity... frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
And those "the only things" cover quite good part of combat PVE in game. Add to it sleeper sites, DED sites and anoms and what's left are incursions, which I agree they got worse only because I don't want to go into this discussion, and L4 missions which in some cases will get better and in some cases will get worse.
I don't quite get your remark about getting worse in short ranges. Both Kronos and Vargur get falloff and tracking bonus, which means that even without bastion they are to be blasters and autocannons beasts respectively. Vargur is already there but since quite a time I have been longing for falloff bonused Gallente battleship and now I am excited.
Quote:No. Isk per hour is the most important part of missions. This shouldn't even be up for discussion. This is why ppl generally do 4s or what have you in fancy battleships and not assault frigs. This is also why terms like "overtanked" exist for mission runners. I don't see it this way but I give it to you, let ISK/hr be THE most important thing. But it still is not everything.
And if it is everything to you, then you probably want to keep using pirate battleships for running missions. No offense, I'm just reflecting current general balance doctrine, as stated by CCP.
Quote:You are also talking about a ship that doesnt really have much of an existing role in the PvP world, but one that does in the PvE world. We are talking about trying to add gimmicky and not yet established PvP roles, at the expensive of the ships' already established PvE role. Again we see things differently. To me, we are talking about ship which has been given some potential to find its niche in PVP. CCP never stated it's to become mainstream. And the PVE expense is at acceptable level. The most controversial thing is the web bonus which, probably so crucial in incursions, hasn't been as useful during missions. Taking Kronos as an example, with rails you are supposed to blap frigs at range and with blasters' tracking you just kill everything, webbed or not.
To some degree I sympathize with incursion runners but it's about the only PVE activity which has significantly been "nerfed" this way.
Quote:You say that you wouldnt want to use in large fleet battles, presumably because when you activate bastion you will be alpha'd if the fleet is large enough. The other side to this is that in smaller numbers, the tank is beastly. What you have is a "Can't Lose" button if the numbers are small enough or maybe more accurately: "Can't lose within a reasonable amount of time" button and isnt balanced either. Adding additional dmg doesnt necessarily change this ship from "Cant Lose" to "I WIN". A dmg increase doesnt need to shove pirates out of their "raw damage kings" or "speed demons" title. What it does do is help preserve existing/already established marauder roles. Yes, I interpret the bastion bonuses as a means of scaling. The maximal battle size a marauder is supposed to take part in is determined by how much bastioned tank will hold, and how long.
And they aren't necessarily "I can't loose". The thing is, the answer to bastioned marauder is not exactly to bring more marauders. It's to bring more firepower, any firepower. Which means that small gang of T1 battleships (or blob of frigs?) should be as good at squishing the bugger as it gets. Bring some neuts and watch hilarity ensuing. But again, this is my theorycrafting without having actual PVP background. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 09:59:00 -
[6464] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
why do you not focus on Black Ops "use to pVp" instead of marauders (used to be PvE oriented) ?!? for example make them "bastion"ed so both pVp and PvE community may be happy imho..
PVE pilots will never be happy because they always want an overpowered ship. What we are getting is much better at pve as it can do a lot more of it than the old one.
For the record, as far as PvE, on OP ship is not what I am after, I am simply after a fun ship to fly, meaning a ship that when I do in fact go out and say, run L4's in hisec, I can actually just stay out with it until I get bored (which sometimes does not take long) and NOT fly back and forth like a maniac.
I'd love to accept and turn in missions in space, I'd love to retrieve and salvage a bit closer to what a Noctis could do (if fitted with all T2 salvage stuff for example), I'd love more cargo hold, and if I'm carrying too much bling and get ganked so be it.
With some of these for example, even if running an actual start-to-end time in a mission took longer then in a T1, it would be balanced out and made better by running say, 4-5 missions is a row, and being much better after running 8-10.
The "sitting in one spot" mission running I'm already doing in a Rattler; I was really hoping Marauders would open up a different way of playing. I did a LOT of cat-and-mouse in a low skilled Drake in L4's and I hear that running a Machariel or a Tengu can be very "on the edge" in some missions, as you have to fly carefully and not get webbed/scrammed, cause it means death, even with the high gank factor, and that sounds like fun.
I just wished something just as interesting could be worked with the Marauders, in fact, I really hoped that all 4 of them would be different enough in play style so I could get the WHOLE set, and just pull out different one for different missions, you know, for fun first, profit later.
I'm sorry I'm still not finding fun in blowing up other people, I thought I would, I just don't get a kick out of the current combat mechanics. I'm sure the engine will get more complex, and in years to come, I'll also have a strong SP base to fly whatever I like, so for now, I'm just building up assets and SP's and keeping play options open (market/construction/exploring/etc)
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:06:00 -
[6465] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:loles wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
What's the point of having tractor bonuses at 40km with an MJD jumping at 100km? With the current implementation I can't see tractor beams used unless MJD isn't used. I think this bonus needs consideration or simply being replaced with something else. well said... Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:09:00 -
[6466] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Vulfen wrote:
CCP aren't really changing marauders though honestly. They are replacing a couple bonuses on the hulls and giving them extra fitting other than that they can be used in the same way as they were previously just with much better fittings and a couple extra options when it comes to fitting. Admittidly the web bonus was a big thing on the kronos and paladin but they have a tracking buff now so you could cope with a 60% web
I think if there is an issue with these ships it is with the gun systems they use, but CCP cant buff or nerf large weapon systems or it would mess the entire balance of power up. Because to Tier 3 BCs. the only thing they could do without messing it up is a small tracking buff across the board.
The whole concept is just a bit crappy. IF CCP would have said "We introduce more CPU and Fitting potential and we decided to give em the T2 resists they deserve" everyone would be happy. If they had said "and we fix the poor sensor strength and scan resolution" everyone would be even more excited. And if ccp would argue, that with this buffs the marauder need a nerf i would have understood it. A general reduction of 25m-¦ drone bandwidth to all ships would be a reduction in effective DPS and more then enough to justify the changes. But no, they had to create a module which makes you stationary, which in itself is a huge drawback. It is the ultimate BS sized defensive module on a ship class tending to be over tanked already. When I mentioned this by writing it point-by-point, people "zZZzzzzZz"ed on me and found this "not interesting". Some of people here have some interest in stationary object. Only thing that makes it different from a sentry dominix is, IMO, e-war immunity. Nothing more. Yep, the biggest active tank outside of capitals will have no impact!
with MJD who needs active tank? unless you are flying a uber bait/camp fit... u are still at their PVP potential, but it is "used to be PVE", drop it and let it be, c'mon.. and vote for "bastion"ed black ops :)
p.s. i fly MJD RNI and rarely use booster..
|

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:15:00 -
[6467] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:loles wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
What's the point of having tractor bonuses at 40km with an MJD jumping at 100km? With the current implementation I can't see tractor beams used unless MJD isn't used. I think this bonus needs consideration or simply being replaced with something else. well said... Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion.
not really. think about golem? cruise launchers? at least 140km range(its RNI range with a sebo)? Noctis best for me, it will be quicker than.. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:17:00 -
[6468] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:The most controversial thing is the web bonus which, probably so crucial in incursions, hasn't been as useful during missions. Taking Kronos as an example, with rails you are supposed to blap frigs at range and with blasters' tracking you just kill everything, webbed or not.
Speak for yourself, I find the web bonus extremely handy when I do L4 with my mwd fitted rail Kronos, it is actually one of the few features that makes the hull competitive compared to rail/sentry hype and domi is to still do high damage at close and take out frigs that are very close to the warp in without having to resort to light drones(what is a massive waste of time compared to sentry based dps). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:29:00 -
[6469] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion.
Even with MJD i fit a 100mn afterburner. So close range NPCs can be killed and salvaged. but some just rely on mjd bastion combination and then you have the following situation.
- You are a close range BS and you jump into the npcs -->No problem with 48km TBeams
- You are a sniper and try to be at 80-120km --> TB worthless during fight, you have to salvage after you jump back to gate. Which makes the noctis even more efficient.
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:31:00 -
[6470] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:loles wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
What's the point of having tractor bonuses at 40km with an MJD jumping at 100km? With the current implementation I can't see tractor beams used unless MJD isn't used. I think this bonus needs consideration or simply being replaced with something else. well said... Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion. not really. think about golem? cruise launchers? at least 140km range(its RNI range with a sebo)? Noctis best for me, it will be quicker than.. Yes, Noctis is the best and that's why I don't bother with salvaging on the go. Though tractor comes handy at times, e.g. when you need to pull in the can with mission objective.
But if anyone wishes to loot and salvage when doing missions, 48km tractor and 100km MJD fit together quite nicely. |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:50:00 -
[6471] - Quote
The Djego wrote:hmskrecik wrote:The most controversial thing is the web bonus which, probably so crucial in incursions, hasn't been as useful during missions. Taking Kronos as an example, with rails you are supposed to blap frigs at range and with blasters' tracking you just kill everything, webbed or not. Speak for yourself, I find the web bonus extremely handy when I do L4 with my mwd fitted rail Kronos, it is actually one of the few features that makes the hull competitive compared to rail/sentry hype and domi is to still do high damage at close and take out frigs that are very close to the warp in without having to resort to light drones(what is a massive waste of time compared to sentry based dps). I do speak for myself. And my experience is that with rails and Javelins even 90% web does not help killing frigs which are already under my guns. Cruisers and up can be dealt with by matching speed vectors as much as possible. I tried and it works.
Also you don't launch sentries while you MWD, do you?
Quote:hmskrecik wrote: To some degree I sympathize with incursion runners but it's about the only PVE activity which has significantly been "nerfed" this way.
It is not just incs, they are in general nerfed if you don't use bastion or mjd(both are fairly pointless for most pve and pvp stuff). The new Kronos does not enough dps with rails without the help of sentry dps, it got not enough range with blasters(and the stop and go is horrible). I mentioned somewhere else that I do not wish to go into discussion about incursions. I agree they got worst of the deal and I leave it at that, it's not my concern.
But I can't leave your remark about Kronos unremarked. The most important thing you have ignored is that the hull gets 50% falloff bonus. Which means that even without bastion the ship is going to have massive range with blasters, with Null it's comparable to railguns with antimatter. Without bastion you use some propulsion so you don't use your sentries but with such projection of blasters it's not going to matter anyway. |

Vulfen
Bio Tech.
69
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:03:00 -
[6472] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:
The whole concept is just a bit crappy. IF CCP would have said "We introduce more CPU and Fitting potential and we decided to give em the T2 resists they deserve" everyone would be happy. If they had said "and we fix the poor sensor strength and scan resolution" everyone would be even more excited. And if ccp would argue, that with this buffs the marauder need a nerf i would have understood it. A general reduction of 25m-¦ drone bandwidth to all ships would be a reduction in effective DPS and more then enough to justify the changes.
But no, they had to create a module which makes you stationary, which in itself is a huge drawback. It is the ultimate BS sized defensive module on a ship class tending to be over tanked already.
So you think that droping 25m3 of drone bandwidth would be worth a 200K EHP buff good sensors while keeping all the utility... now thats some balance.
I do however think CCP are missing some key things here.
Personally i dont think the bastion module setup in its current iteration will see any use in PVP except for high-sec station games. I believe the E-War immunity is an balanced option anyway, i think it should offer more like "E-War Resistance" where all ewar effects cast upon the ship is reduced by 50%, and remote assistance suffers the same penalty. With this i then believe you will see them in pvp as a good option. As currently you might aswell just field a T1 BS and if you die grab another quickly.
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:12:00 -
[6473] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:The Djego wrote:hmskrecik wrote:The most controversial thing is the web bonus which, probably so crucial in incursions, hasn't been as useful during missions. Taking Kronos as an example, with rails you are supposed to blap frigs at range and with blasters' tracking you just kill everything, webbed or not. Speak for yourself, I find the web bonus extremely handy when I do L4 with my mwd fitted rail Kronos, it is actually one of the few features that makes the hull competitive compared to rail/sentry hype and domi is to still do high damage at close and take out frigs that are very close to the warp in without having to resort to light drones(what is a massive waste of time compared to sentry based dps). I do speak for myself. And my experience is that with rails and Javelins even 90% web does not help killing frigs which are already under my guns. Cruisers and up can be dealt with by matching speed vectors as much as possible. I tried and it works. Also you don't launch sentries while you MWD, do you?.
You mwd in high dps range(around 30-40km) drop the sentry's and kill stuff from there(yes you can still move since with the mwd being a few km away from your sentry's doesn't matter). You hit frigs that you missed at 18km with the overheated FN web and one volley them. If they get close you can still web them down reduce transversal to zero and kill them with rails(that is still faster than using light drones). Also killing a bunch of cruisers is way faster with the web than adjusting speed and vector for any of them(that takes forever and is a reason why the web saves so much time with the hull).
hmskrecik wrote: But I can't leave your remark about Kronos unremarked. The most important thing you have ignored is that the hull gets 50% falloff bonus. Which means that even without bastion the ship is going to have massive range with blasters, with Null it's comparable to railguns with antimatter. Without bastion you use some propulsion so you don't use your sentries but with such projection of blasters it's not going to matter anyway.
Blasters don't have rail range, even with a 50% falloff bonus. A 425mm rail with 2 TCs got 47+49km what means max dps up to 50km with antimatter, on the Kronos on sissi antimatter loses most of the dps beyond 20km and null beyond 45km, because of falloff. Blaster dps projection is bad even with the falloff bonus(it is a lot less than on the vargur or mach and you need to move this hulls a lot to get good dps out of them), it gets even worse if you can't even move(because if you want to you throw the slot advantage for tank bastion would bring right out of the window). Overall the current rail Kronos is vastly more effective than the rail Kronos on sissi(because of the lacking speed and sentry dps) and the blaster version isn't much better because of the stop and go game play combined with low range. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:19:00 -
[6474] - Quote
The Djego wrote:You mwd in high dps range(around 30-40km) drop the sentry's and kill stuff from there(yes you can still move since with the mwd being a few km away from your sentry's doesn't matter). You hit frigs that you missed at 18km with the overheated FN web and one volley them. If they get close you can still web them down reduce transversal to zero and kill them with rails(that is still faster than using light drones). Also killing a bunch of cruisers is way faster with the web than adjusting speed and vector for any of them(that takes forever and is a reason why the web saves so much time with the hull).
Okay, so for your flying style webs make sense while for mine they don't. What I don't agree with is the "way faster" part. I tested with and without web and difference is negligible thus I prefer to dedicate this mid slot for something which works at all ranges (like, Omni Tracking Link or AB).
Quote:Overall the current rail Kronos is vastly more effective than the rail Kronos on sissi(because of the lacking speed and sentry dps) and the blaster version isn't much better because of the stop and go game play combined with low range. I guess you have tested it on SiSi flying your way. I'm going to wait until the ship hits TQ and to test flying my way. Maybe I will be forced to take back my words but for now I am optimistic. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:31:00 -
[6475] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Gosh, those forum rules about quotations...
I understand you discuss marauders without bastion activated. OK, so be it. * raw dps slightly lowered, though on Vargur it has already been lost to me as I used AB setup, so no sentries anyway. * mobility is give-and-take. Please don't forget the MJD bonus works even without bastion installed and increased PG/CPU means you can easily fit AB or MWD (maybe even all three prop mods, if you so fancy) * about loot exclusivity... frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
And those "the only things" cover quite good part of combat PVE in game. Add to it sleeper sites, DED sites and anoms and what's left are incursions, which I agree they got worse only because I don't want to go into this discussion, and L4 missions which in some cases will get better and in some cases will get worse.
Everything mentioned here negatively impacts isk per hour. As mentioned previously, anything that: a) requires a heavy tank but not logi b) has a lot of ewar gets better. Everything else, including most level 4s, gets worse.
Quote: I don't quite get your remark about getting worse in short ranges. Both Kronos and Vargur get falloff and tracking bonus, which means that even without bastion they are to be blasters and autocannons beasts respectively. Vargur is already there but since quite a time I have been longing for falloff bonused Gallente battleship and now I am excited.
... really? Effects of slower max speed: * torp golem takes longer to get in range * short range turret boats take longer to get in range / cant reduce falloff as quickly both mean less isk / per hour
hmskrecik wrote: I don't see it this way but I give it to you, let ISK/hr be THE most important thing. But it still is not everything.
And if it is everything to you, then you probably want to keep using pirate battleships for running missions. No offense, I'm just reflecting current general balance doctrine, as stated by CCP.
Okay... what? You have listed and we have discussed several things that reduce isk per hour for marauders. The only reason someone would support those things from a PvE standpoint is if they believe that isk per hours wasnt the most important thing... and you just said that it was.
If you dont care about isk per hour, why not do your 4s in an assault frig? lvl4s are like Rat Mining. Would you use a retriever to solo mine in highsec if there was a mackinaw sitting in you hanger? but.. but... the difference b4 drones is only 5%. Move to the diff in battleships like vargur vs mach, mach can fit a tank for 4s and has around 9.5% better raw dmg + twice the bandwidth. If you are using a TQ marauder and not looting, I would be very curious to know what your justification is for using one over a pirateship that you say would earn you more isk per hour (and it will b/c you dont loot). I mean, saying "go use a pirateship" is a bad PvE implementation because there are currently justifiable isk per hour reasons to use both on a regular basis. After these changes, pirates / faction alternatives will the only thing to use in terms of isk per hour.
hmskrecik wrote: Again we see things differently. To me, we are talking about ship which has been given some potential to find its niche in PVP. CCP never stated it's to become mainstream. And the PVE expense is at acceptable level. The most controversial thing is the web bonus which, probably so crucial in incursions, hasn't been as useful during missions. Taking Kronos as an example, with rails you are supposed to blap frigs at range and with blasters' tracking you just kill everything, webbed or not.
To some degree I sympathize with incursion runners but it's about the only PVE activity which has significantly been "nerfed" this way.
You said you dont believe isk per hour is everything.... this is why you see it as the only significant nerf.
hmskrecik wrote: And they aren't necessarily "I can't loose". The thing is, the answer to bastioned marauder is not exactly to bring more marauders. It's to bring more firepower, any firepower. Which means that small gang of T1 battleships (or blob of frigs?) should be as good at squishing the bugger as it gets. Bring some neuts and watch hilarity ensuing. But again, this is my theorycrafting without having actual PVP background.
Your idea of balance is that it is okay for the only counter to a ship to be: "bring more ppl"....?
Neuts are lame vs marauders b/c of dual ASB setups and the marauders' cargo capacity... esp for the vargur and golem who dont need cap to fire.
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:36:00 -
[6476] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:4 faction gyros and t2 burst rig...it is truly shame it cant brake 1000(900 even) dps mark. Even Vindicator does not break 1000dps with long range guns (Machariel too, for that matter). And your point is? My point is that artys are bad weapon except niche role and it still stands. 1000 dpsAs you see Vindicator does 1000 dps with guns only(faction ammo included) Mach is over 900(0) too and since it uses same low dps arty it isn't great but at least it is high enough with solid drone bay and implants to out dps battlecruizers. So did you had a point beside being wrong ? Ah, okay. I checked with tech 2 magstabs instead of faction. My point, beside being corrected, is that marauders are not supposed to have bigger dps than pirate battleships. Ask CCP if you have any doubts.
Never did I stated that marauders should out dps pirate ships I just stated that arty are bad and cant brake certain dps margain like other MARAUDERS do while still have worst tracking,dps,range then any of them...it is not like they have worse tracking than tachs but better dmg than rails NO that are worse in everything compared to anything.
Where did I tell anything about pirate ships should do less dips then marauders.you brought them up by being wrong not me I just stated that if you want comparable dps to rest of marauders you need a machariel to do it because minimatar most advanced ship(vargur)is doing as much dmg with them as t1 Dominix do with sentry drones alone while not suffering from acute lack of tracking and range.
And rly if you gonna quote ppl try to stay on quoted topic.
Edit
I do agree on your point it just wasn't relevant from my point of view. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:36:00 -
[6477] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: I guess you have tested it on SiSi flying your way. I'm going to wait until the ship hits TQ and to test flying my way. Maybe I will be forced to take back my words but for now I am optimistic.
.... lawl, i just finished writing a long reply to hmskrecik... Then I see this comment..
You havent even tested it?!?!?! |

Kane Fenris
NWP
97
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:57:00 -
[6478] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote: Never did I stated that marauders should out dps pirate ships I just stated that arty are bad and cant brake certain dps margain like other MARAUDERS do while still have worst tracking,dps,range then any of them...it is not like they have worse tracking than tachs but better dmg than rails NO that are worse in everything compared to anything.
i guess theres a great problem with Bs arty. anythig but alpha sucks on artys...
if you nerf alpha and up dps ppl will whine.
i think to fix the under/unused ammo types could help but theres the problem it wouldnt only affect large turrets...
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:34:00 -
[6479] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
The whole concept is just a bit crappy. IF CCP would have said "We introduce more CPU and Fitting potential and we decided to give em the T2 resists they deserve" everyone would be happy. If they had said "and we fix the poor sensor strength and scan resolution" everyone would be even more excited. And if ccp would argue, that with this buffs the marauder need a nerf i would have understood it. A general reduction of 25m-¦ drone bandwidth to all ships would be a reduction in effective DPS and more then enough to justify the changes.
But no, they had to create a module which makes you stationary, which in itself is a huge drawback. It is the ultimate BS sized defensive module on a ship class tending to be over tanked already.
So you think that droping 25m3 of drone bandwidth would be worth a 200K EHP buff good sensors while keeping all the utility... now thats some balance. I do however think CCP are missing some key things here. Personally i dont think the bastion module setup in its current iteration will see any use in PVP except for high-sec station games. I believe the E-War immunity is an balanced option anyway, i think it should offer more like "E-War Resistance" where all ewar effects cast upon the ship is reduced by 50%, and remote assistance suffers the same penalty. With this i then believe you will see them in pvp as a good option. As currently you might aswell just field a T1 BS and if you die grab another quickly.
Have i mentioned with one word BASTION. Bastion came, but sensor strength, scan resolution and cpu/PG buff is enough. and this changes would be okay for 25 m-¦. |

AskariRising
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:35:00 -
[6480] - Quote
i honestly was hoping the bastion transformation for the golem was going to be the raven with its wings bending forward a bit and the "head" part sliding back into the body. the missile silo/panels or whatever were cool but i think it couldve been way cooler |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:47:00 -
[6481] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: Everything mentioned here negatively impacts isk per hour. As mentioned previously, anything that: a) requires a heavy tank but not logi b) has a lot of ewar gets better. Everything else, including most level 4s, gets worse.
This the moment when I stop arguing. From now on the only correct course is to test how it works in practice. Which incidentally answers question from your other post: nope I didn't test and I'm not gonna test on SiSi for reasons beside this discussion.
Quote:Effects of slower max speed: * torp golem takes longer to get in range * short range turret boats take longer to get in range / cant reduce falloff as quickly both mean less isk / per hour
Kronos with MWD+blasters yields almost the same ISK/hr like the railgun version. Honestly, it's slightly worse but only so. With better falloff and ability to MJD almost at will I expect it only to improve.
Quote:Okay... what? You have listed and we have discussed several things that reduce isk per hour for marauders. The only reason someone would support those things from a PvE standpoint is if they believe that isk per hours wasnt the most important thing... and you just said that it was. Dude... There is a difference between "the most important factor (while other are considered too)" and "the only important factor (when other are not)". If the ISK/hr is the only thing you care about, it's okay and let's agree to disagree.
There are other factors which I do take into consideration and which have their weights to me.
Quote:If you dont care about isk per hour, why not do your 4s in an assault frig? lvl4s are like Rat Mining. Would you use a retriever to solo mine in highsec if there was a mackinaw sitting in you hanger? but.. but... the difference b4 drones is only 5%. Move to the diff in battleships like vargur vs mach, mach can fit a tank for 4s and has around 9.5% better raw dmg + twice the bandwidth. If you are using a TQ marauder and not looting, I would be very curious to know what your justification is for using one over a pirateship that you say would earn you more isk per hour (and it will b/c you dont loot). I mean, saying "go use a pirateship" is a bad PvE implementation because there are currently justifiable isk per hour reasons to use both on a regular basis. After these changes, pirates / faction alternatives will the only thing to use in terms of isk per hour.
Since you asked. Right after raw performance, the next most important thing to me is fitting versatility. There is generally the only way to fit pirate battleship for missions while marauders leave more wiggling room. Esp. with Kronos with which I can complete most missions while having empty one low and two mid slots. No way you can have so many utilities on Vindi or Mach. Also not negligible is matter of investment. You can fit marauder with Tech2 modules only and you're good to go. Pirate BS require at least some pimpage, sometimes bordering on becoming loot pinatas. Large cargo and ammo conservation are nice too.
The thing is, to me and to many other people pirate BS have better performance than marauders. The question nobody asks, lest to answer it, is HOW MUCH BETTER? I asked it myself and gave myself an answer, which (again, to me) is: not that much. Which means that if I have before-the-end-of-month financial goal, I'm going to grind with pirate hulls while if I rather want to shoot some stuff without breaking sweat, or go to operate far from my home base, I'm better off with marauders.
Funny you mentioned it. I did run some L4s in assfrigs. Because I could. Not the most efficient way in fact but fun to do once or twice to relieve some boredom.
Quote:Your idea of balance is that it is okay for the only counter to a ship to be: "bring more ppl"....?
Neuts are lame vs marauders b/c of dual ASB setups and the marauders' cargo capacity... esp for the vargur and golem who dont need cap to fire.
No, my point is, that "bring more marauders" is not the only valid one. This is just the most basic test but in itself it doesn't guarantee that the ship is balanced. It might be not. We'll see. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:25:00 -
[6482] - Quote
I have an idea that may work to kinda even things out for the different weapon systems.
We'll take large multifrequency crystal as an example.
Currently, multifrequency unfitted is -50% range at 28 em and 20 therm. Radio is +60% range at 16 EM and 8 therm.
On unfitted Tachyon T2 that is Multi - 26.4 KM Radio - 84.48 KM
[I'm not going to factor fall-off here cause i don't wanna do the math]
Now, if you consider the damage drop amount from one to the other - 57% roughly
This means you could take one crystal and make the optimal 26.4km when fitted t2, and make the fall-off roughly (without doing math) 76km or so...
With hybrid ammo, you could have two different range ammos - short to mid and mid to long. And then have two different damage profiles.
Projectiles would also get T2 damage specific ammo, which would actually go a long way into fixing the complaints that have been expressed about arty.
There's no point in several different ammo types. Just one or two, and you're done.
This would actually go a long way, and expecially for lasers, would make a ton of sense... Light goes on until if dissipates.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:34:00 -
[6483] - Quote
AskariRising wrote:i honestly was hoping the bastion transformation for the golem was going to be the raven with its wings bending forward a bit and the "head" part sliding back into the body. the missile silo/panels or whatever were cool but i think it couldve been way cooler
of all the new "remodels" of marauders, the golem was the least inspiring take on probably the most iconic ship in eve (after the drake)
i feel like CCP took a huge crap on the raven model
Scroll back a couple pages. There was a player that put up a design that looks freaking awesome.
The first design he put out would make for a mean golem. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
549
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:48:00 -
[6484] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Scroll back a couple pages. There was a player that put up a design that looks freaking awesome.
The first design he put out would make for a mean golem.
Here's the link.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3757189#post3757189
I didn't like it tho, it looked weird. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:54:00 -
[6485] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Dude... There is a difference between "the most important factor (while other are considered too)" and "the only important factor (when other are not)". If the ISK/hr is the only thing you care about, it's okay and let's agree to disagree.
There are other factors which I do take into consideration and which have their weights to me.
This, in a nut shell.
What matters to me
All of these effect isk/hr. If you can't full room aggro, you're either going to have to warp out, kite, or watch aggroes and triggers. All of which reduce isk/hr.
If you can't target or track due to ewar, you're losing isk/hr.
The better damage you can apply at range, the less you and/or the npcs have to travel, which increases isk/hr.
MJD makes a huge difference to isk/hr as well. What many people aren't factoring is the penalties of MWD. It reduces your overall cap, and consumes cap quickly. This means you'll either have to sit and build cap before you use the next gate, or you'll have to burn cap boosters.. cap boosters cost isk = less isk per hour.
Less weapons = less ammo used = more isk/hr.
Many people don't factor in ammo and cap booster costs when it comes to isk/hr. This is why I don't use and ASB. I have a cap booster on my Golem in the event of an emergency, but so far on the test server, I've only used it once when my shield booster didn't deactivate when I told it to. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:55:00 -
[6486] - Quote
Looks a little weird, but it looks mean... And compared to what they're pushing now, it's a whole lot better. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:56:00 -
[6487] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Okay, so for your flying style webs make sense while for mine they don't. What I don't agree with is the "way faster" part. I tested with and without web and difference is negligible thus I prefer to dedicate this mid slot for something which works at all ranges (like, Omni Tracking Link or AB)..
A ab is pointless since you fit a mwd, same as a omni link with 2 sentry's at best. Way faster means insta killing frigs that get to close, saving 2-3 volleys on most close cruisers and even on BS. I mission most of the time in Angel space with it and the 90% web is one of the most useful features because you can hit at close range(what the domi and hype don't do at all).
hmskrecik wrote:I guess you have tested it on SiSi flying your way. I'm going to wait until the ship hits TQ and to test flying my way. Maybe I will be forced to take back my words but for now I am optimistic.
I flown it for about 6h L4 and a few low sec annos on sissi with blaster, with rails, it sucks in both ways. It is not that this is the first time I fly it, I got one and fly it since years and know how the use it to get the best results. You bring it in range where you can do max dps, you use sentry drones and you web stuff down what comes to close. You know why 90% of the people vouch for the mach as best mission ship? It is not the dps(it is good but not that special once you fly real gank fittings) it is not the range(it does a lot worse at 40+ km than the rail Kronos), it is because they actually move the ship around to apply dps in a efficient manner, the same thing you can do with a Kronos and it is fairly good at it(with rails, not with blasters). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:14:00 -
[6488] - Quote
The arguement for webs is moot.
A web may slow a target down enough for you to hit it, but you'll still have low tracking and may not be able to hit effectively. You can launch small drones and kill the frigs while you're focusing down other targets.
The other major thing that effects this is the MJD. If they get too close to track, just MJD away and boom, you can insta pop frigs and with probably only one turret. The only marauder that can't do this is the Golem because it would need one TP per launcher at least. I group my launchers in two, and use one TP and one group per frig to insta them down. |

loles
The Oregon Mining Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:36:00 -
[6489] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion.
"Not really", 40km for us mortals with T1 tractor beams.
And anyway what's the point of tractoring then MJD and tractoring again? Because if the point is looting a mission objective, using MJD twice to loot are 2 minutes wasted, I'd rather undock my noctis. If range was greater wrecks would be packed together for noctis to salvage. I currently run the noctis (lvl 4) with 6 tractor beams and 2 salvagers, a decent TB bonus on marauders could reduce the number of TBs.
If you are a snipper, and MJD + Bastion will have many snippers, that tractor range is only useful to loot frig wrecks which are the only that will get below 50km, which are anyway generally useless. And as someone said golem can hit at 150km, and paladin will be over 100km too with tachyons. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:41:00 -
[6490] - Quote
loles wrote:hmskrecik wrote: Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion.
"Not really", 40km for us mortals with T1 tractor beams. And anyway what's the point of tractoring then MJD and tractoring again? Because if the point is looting a mission objective, using MJD twice to loot are 2 minutes wasted, I'd rather undock my noctis. If range was greater wrecks would be packed together for noctis to salvage. I currently run the noctis (lvl 4) with 6 tractor beams and 2 salvagers, a decent TB bonus on marauders could reduce the number of TBs. If you are a snipper, and MJD + Bastion will have many snippers, that tractor range is only useful to loot frig wrecks which are the only that will get below 50km, which are anyway generally useless. And as someone said golem can hit at 150km, and paladin will be over 100km too with tachyons.
I'll probably still stick to Golem noctis combo. Clear a few missions, the. Come back and salvage. Noctis is much faster, even after you factor leaving and returning.
I run 4 tractor, 4 salvage... I can lock 10 targets, so I tractor 4 while I'm salvaging 4. |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:48:00 -
[6491] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The arguement for webs is moot.
A web may slow a target down enough for you to hit it, but you'll still have low tracking and may not be able to hit effectively.
Why don't we leave judging the usefulness about how good you can apply damage with a 90% web to target to people that solo pvped in plategank megas back in the days? Mkay? As a hint if it is good enough for me, it probably gives you 103% applied dps on the target and the reason to fly a Kronos over the rail+sentry hype or domi(that do more on paper dps) is damage application.
Joe Risalo wrote:You can launch small drones and kill the frigs while you're focusing down other targets.
It is a massive wast of time, web it one shoot it vs 30-40s to kill it with small drones, what cost you about 5400 damage on another target with sentry's in the meantime. Also you can apply 100% sentry damage on everything bigger than a frig even at point blank with the 90% web.
Joe Risalo wrote:The other major thing that effects this is the MJD. If they get too close to track, just MJD away and boom, you can insta pop frigs and with probably only one turret. The only marauder that can't do this is the Golem because it would need one TP per launcher at least. I group my launchers in two, and use one TP and one group per frig to insta them down.
Since you don't realize it, you wast 30-50% of your dps(sentry dps and a bit chunk of the turret dps) by mjding away in a turret ship. This is the reason why some people use a mwd and a web, because it is "drum roll" a lot faster compared to your method. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:52:00 -
[6492] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:loles wrote:hmskrecik wrote: Not really. It's 48km. And if anyone can't slowboat 4km then they have problems outside of scope of this discussion.
"Not really", 40km for us mortals with T1 tractor beams. And anyway what's the point of tractoring then MJD and tractoring again? Because if the point is looting a mission objective, using MJD twice to loot are 2 minutes wasted, I'd rather undock my noctis. If range was greater wrecks would be packed together for noctis to salvage. I currently run the noctis (lvl 4) with 6 tractor beams and 2 salvagers, a decent TB bonus on marauders could reduce the number of TBs. If you are a snipper, and MJD + Bastion will have many snippers, that tractor range is only useful to loot frig wrecks which are the only that will get below 50km, which are anyway generally useless. And as someone said golem can hit at 150km, and paladin will be over 100km too with tachyons. I'll probably still stick to Golem noctis combo. Clear a few missions, the. Come back and salvage. Noctis is much faster, even after you factor leaving and returning. I run 4 tractor, 4 salvage... I can lock 10 targets, so I tractor 4 while I'm salvaging 4.
your combo is only faster if you plan to salvage everything even the useless frigates and cruisers. if you only salvage and loot battleships that are within 48km. Just a marauder alone is always faster.
you get way faster salvage with 6 tractor and 2 salvage + slavage drones. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
827
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 16:36:00 -
[6493] - Quote
As long as we're keeping tractor bonuses (which I do not disagree with), I would like to see them increased to a 200% range/velocity bonus instead of 100%. The Noctis shouldn't be offended by this, as it has 300% range/velocity bonuses as well as a 25% bonus to salvager/tractor cycle time. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 17:11:00 -
[6494] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:As long as we're keeping tractor bonuses (which I do not disagree with), I would like to see them increased to a 200% range/velocity bonus instead of 100%. The Noctis shouldn't be offended by this, as it has 300% range/velocity bonuses as well as a 25% bonus to salvager/tractor cycle time. Yeah, how about no. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
829
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:15:00 -
[6495] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:As long as we're keeping tractor bonuses (which I do not disagree with), I would like to see them increased to a 200% range/velocity bonus instead of 100%. The Noctis shouldn't be offended by this, as it has 300% range/velocity bonuses as well as a 25% bonus to salvager/tractor cycle time. Yeah, how about no.
What an informative reply. You have completely explained your views and why you disagree with what I've said. You've made a clear, well-articulated counterpoint and obviously spent a lot of time thinking about what you wanted to say and how to say it.
Oh wait, you didn't do anything remotely like any of that at all.
If you're going to be rude about it, at least explain why you disagree with it. Ytterbium already indicated the tractor bonuses are staying, so they may as well be updated. If tractor bonuses on the hull offends you, take it up with Ytterbium and not me. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:30:00 -
[6496] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:What an informative reply. You have completely explained your views and why you disagree with what I've said. You've made a clear, well-articulated counterpoint and obviously spent a lot of time thinking about what you wanted to say and how to say it.
Oh wait, you didn't do anything remotely like any of that at all.
If you're going to be rude about it, at least explain why you disagree with it. Ytterbium already indicated the tractor bonuses are staying, so they may as well be updated. If tractor bonuses on the hull offends you, take it up with Ytterbium and not me. Fine, let me expand on my response. 1. Marauders already have the largest cargo capacity of any battleship. 2. Marauders will thus be able to carry several of the new 'tractor' units (one speedy beam per unit). 3. Marauders will effectively have their tractor ability significantly enhanced. 4. So yeah, how about no... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
829
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:10:00 -
[6497] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: Fine, let me expand on my response. 1. Marauders already have the largest cargo capacity of any battleship. 2. Marauders will thus be able to carry several of the new 'tractor' units (one speedy beam per unit). 3. Marauders will effectively have their tractor ability significantly enhanced. 4. So yeah, how about no...
Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.
In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.
In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:29:00 -
[6498] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.
In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.
In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots. It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
784
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:37:00 -
[6499] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.
In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.
In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots. It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis. Has anything been stated regarding the size of these structures or details/restrictions on deploying them? That would be pretty important to the discussion prior to assuming we would end up in a competition with the Noctis. Also marauders would still lack the salvager cycle bonus of the Noctis. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
829
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:40:00 -
[6500] - Quote
The only thing I've found out so far is that they tractor only one item at a time and have no velocity bonus. I do however anticipate that they'll be in the next build of Rubicon that hits SiSi - although I've been wrong before. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
602
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:41:00 -
[6501] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.
In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.
In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots. It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis. Has anything been stated regarding the size of these structures or details/restrictions on deploying them? That would be pretty important to the discussion prior to assuming we would end up in a competition with the Noctis. Also marauders would still lack the salvager cycle bonus of the Noctis.
The only thing we have heard is that they don't have a bonus to tractor speed. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:41:00 -
[6502] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Has anything been stated regarding the size of these structures or details/restrictions on deploying them? That would be pretty important to the discussion prior to assuming we would end up in a competition with the Noctis. Also marauders would still lack the salvager cycle bonus of the Noctis. Not that I've been able to ascertain. The only thing I picked up from the EVE Vegas stuff this weekend is that these won't compete/replace a Noctis. On that note, the Noctis should be able to sport a few of these as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
829
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:47:00 -
[6503] - Quote
I have an unbonused tractor on my L3 fleet cane. It's pretty slow. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:49:00 -
[6504] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I have an unbonused tractor on my L3 fleet cane. It's pretty slow. If you (can) drop a few of these at mission start and they won't be attacked by NPCs, it'll add up by missions end. I'm not suggesting it will replace anything, but combined with a Marauder or Noctis it will vastly enhance the salvaging component. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Merciful Deletion
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:54:00 -
[6505] - Quote
It would be nice if they increased the tractor range to 150% to match 60Km of drones. Out of all the changes I thought this would be been looked at first. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
829
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:55:00 -
[6506] - Quote
150% is a nice bonus too. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:57:00 -
[6507] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:150% is a nice bonus too. 0 works too.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:14:00 -
[6508] - Quote
After hearing a few more details about the deployables, I'm now a lot more content with the Marauder changes.
The tractor unit has estimated cost of 5 million, and is reusable. All deployables are 50m3. Also has a deploy time of about 45 secs, so yeah good luck deploying a whole bunch of these unless you plan to sit in one spot for the whole room.
What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD.
This addresses a lot of the concerns I had with Bastion and doesn't force me to do MJD sniping. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:27:00 -
[6509] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD. 500k ISK is way, way too cheap.... Since you've outlined an unintended way of exploiting the depots, here's another. You're about to die in PvP, so drop one of these and strip your complete fit into it. Soon as your enemies shoot the depot it goes into 48-hour reinforcement mode.
Oh, but wait... You hop into a Tornado with 1400mm artillery and start sniping frigates from 100km+ as they jump to plexes. After they lose a few and decide to gang you, drop a depot and swap out your lows for warb stabilizers and GTFO of dodge. Or a short-range fit and smoke them all instead.
With pre-saved fits and modules, this will be near-instantaneous. Unless there's some catch the depots are going to be seriously OP. And all for the low, low price of 500k ISK. Talk about the ultimate power creep... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:31:00 -
[6510] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dorororo wrote:What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD. 500k ISK is way, way too cheap.... Since you've outlined an unintended way of exploiting the depots, here's another. You're about to die in PvP, so drop one of these and strip your complete fit into it. Soon as your enemies shoot the depot it goes into 48-hour reinforcement mode. Oh, but wait... You hop into a Tornado with 1400mm artillery and start sniping frigates from 100km+ as they jump to plexes. After they lose a few and decide to gang you, drop a depot and swap out your lows for warb stabilizers and GTFO of dodge. Or a short-range fit and smoke them all instead. With pre-saved fits and modules, this will be near-instantaneous. Unless there's some catch the depots are going to be seriously OP. And all for the low, low price of 500k ISK. Talk about the ultimate power creep...
45 second deploy time. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
602
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:34:00 -
[6511] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dorororo wrote:What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD. 500k ISK is way, way too cheap.... Since you've outlined an unintended way of exploiting the depots, here's another. You're about to die in PvP, so drop one of these and strip your complete fit into it. Soon as your enemies shoot the depot it goes into 48-hour reinforcement mode. Oh, but wait... You hop into a Tornado with 1400mm artillery and start sniping frigates from 100km+ as they jump to plexes. After they lose a few and decide to gang you, drop a depot and swap out your lows for warb stabilizers and GTFO of dodge. Or a short-range fit and smoke them all instead. With pre-saved fits and modules, this will be near-instantaneous. Unless there's some catch the depots are going to be seriously OP. And all for the low, low price of 500k ISK. Talk about the ultimate power creep... 45 second deploy time.
Depends on limitations..
Can you deploy more than one at a time and at the same time? Can they be within 5km of each other and other objects?
If yes, on these, it would be nice...
My plan would be to drop some of these in a mission site to start tractoring while i'm clearing the rest of the site, then come back with a noctis fitted full salvage to collect loot, salvage, and structures. |

sarkenna
RIVVEN Inc
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:45:00 -
[6512] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Harvey James wrote:Also Ytterbium -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post  . Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
- TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots. + Target painting affects a whole group of players - Require med slots in the first place
- Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place + Always applied as long as you shoot - Static, cannot be influenced by itself - Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
I would really prefer that change, i would like to make this ship more independend from ewar modules in the midslots. People don't really fit more than two targetpainter i guess and they could still fit one and let the second one kind of be replaced with the explosion radius bonus. That would still free up a medslot to make use of the newfound tankyness.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:12:00 -
[6513] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:45 second deploy time. And I would surmise that when it is in reinforced, it can't be used. According to CCP @ EVE-Vegas, when it's in reinforced mode you can come and remove anything from it. Can you just see the ganker tears? Miners deploy this in a belt, Gevlon Goblin and co. show up - simply strip your fitting into the depot once they attack. All they profit from is salvage (no drops). Unless I'm missing something? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:22:00 -
[6514] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dorororo wrote:45 second deploy time. And I would surmise that when it is in reinforced, it can't be used. According to CCP @ EVE-Vegas, when it's in reinforced mode you can come and remove anything from it. Can you just see the ganker tears? Miners deploy this in a belt, Gevlon Goblin and co. show up - simply strip your fitting into the depot once they attack. All they profit from is salvage (no drops). Unless I'm missing something?
Well in that particular example the obvious thing you're missing is that gankers don't shoot miners for loot drops, so they could care less whether you put your puny strip miner modules in the depot.
I'm not sure on the details about limitations during reinforcement, if you can only take things out then you can't refit since you can't put modules in it. In any case, I don't give a hoot about PVP mechanics with this and I'm pretty sure CCP will prevent blatant exploits. The only thing I care about is that the depot could give back some flexibility that is taken away by the MJD + Bastion combination. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:25:00 -
[6515] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Well in that particular example the obvious thing you're missing is that gankers don't shoot miners for loot drops, so they could care less whether you put your puny strip miner modules in the depot.
I'm not sure on the details about limitations during reinforcement, if you can only take things out then you can't refit since you can't put modules in it. In any case, I don't give a hoot about PVP mechanics with this and I'm pretty sure CCP will prevent blatant exploits. The only thing I care about is that the depot could give back some flexibility that is taken away by the MJD + Bastion combination. $10 says you can't deploy them in missions, lol. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
784
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:36:00 -
[6516] - Quote
Have any of the details been written anywhere yet or are they only available on twitch replays? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
831
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:43:00 -
[6517] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:150% is a nice bonus too. 0 works too. 
Actually, zero does not work. If you're going to be butthurt that something other than a Noctis has a tractor bonus, do it in response to someone else's attempts to be constructive. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:26:00 -
[6518] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Actually, zero does not work. If you're going to be butthurt that something other than a Noctis has a tractor bonus, do it in response to someone else's attempts to be constructive. 0 stasis web bonus -or- 0 tractor bonus. Get over your Marauder already... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:33:00 -
[6519] - Quote
What might be cool would actually be to see marauders given a substantial salvage range bonus as opposed to tractor bonus. Say something like a 60km salvage range. This would mean they would be the king of salvage, while the noctis would be king of loot/salvage.
Might sound weird, but it's a sound idea. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:40:00 -
[6520] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:What might be cool would actually be to see marauders given a substantial salvage range bonus as opposed to tractor bonus. Say something like a 60km salvage range. This would mean they would be the king of salvage, while the noctis would be king of loot/salvage.
Might sound weird, but it's a sound idea. I'd trade it all if I could just get it in matte black... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
834
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:11:00 -
[6521] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Actually, zero does not work. If you're going to be butthurt that something other than a Noctis has a tractor bonus, do it in response to someone else's attempts to be constructive. 0 stasis web bonus -or- 0 tractor bonus. Get over your Marauder already...
I don't actually have a Marauder yet, but I don't use webs anyway. That's what lights are for. So I'm in support of removing the web bonus and boosting the tractor bonus.
Anyway, what's this "get over your marauder" business doing in a... wait for it...
..marauder thread? |

Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:42:00 -
[6522] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:
-snipped-
Good to see that things have come around a bit.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:58:00 -
[6523] - Quote
Ok, I'll go back to one of my much earlier posts on balance.
Ok, so balance the base hulls around tracking. Lots of tracking bonuses. Balance sensors buff HP Perhaps give t2 resists
Take bastion and give it fitting penalties Reduces tracking bonuses in exchange for range bonuses Reduces sensors Reduces HP Perhaps loses t2 resists
Bastion retains all current bonuses. Ships would not be given webs, but out of bastion, would have pretty good tracking. Enough for 1-2 webs/ web and warp scram would allow you to reasonably track a close range frig.
Bastion also gives you a targeting range bonus when bastioned.
Along the lines of my last comment, Exchange tractor range bonus for salvager range bonus.. Possibly 1000% range bonus, giving them 60km salvage range. This is because the vast majority of Marauder pilots focus on salvage and not loot. This would allow the noctis to still be the loot and salvage king due to salvage cycle, cargohold, and tractor range and velocity.
Perhaps the bonus to salvage would only be with bastion?
Alternately, the base hull could possibly come with a AB velocity bonus OR removal of MWD cap penalty per level up to 0 penatly at Marauders 5. While fitting bastion would revert this bonus to MJD bonus.
This allows long and short range mobility platforms, and long and short range stationary tanks.
If CCP has to make everyone happy, this is probably the only way to do it. If they're not trying to make everyone happy, then they're fine with iteration 3. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
836
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:01:00 -
[6524] - Quote
Before we talk about salvage bonuses instead of web bonuses, I'd like to point out that most marauder pilots who care about salvaging on-the-go probably use drones to do it. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:04:00 -
[6525] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Before we talk about salvage bonuses instead of web bonuses, I'd like to point out that most marauder pilots who care about salvaging on-the-go probably use drones to do it.
Can't truly use salvage drones on the go cause they get shot at, and it relies on tractors to keep them in close, and we're already arguing about tractor range not being significant enough |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
366
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:08:00 -
[6526] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Before we talk about salvage bonuses instead of web bonuses, I'd like to point out that most marauder pilots who care about salvaging on-the-go probably use drones to do it. It has to be brutally slow using salvaging drones...
Joe Risalo wrote:Can't truly use salvage drones on the go cause they get shot at, and it relies on tractors to keep them in close, and we're already arguing about tractor range not being significant enough Well... if they're only 50 m3, wouldn't it make more sense to drop like 3-4 of the new 'tractor' units and equip salvage beams instead? Not sure about range, but maybe a 100% increase to cycle time? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
836
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:10:00 -
[6527] - Quote
According to pages earlier in this thead, the secret to using salvage drones on-the-go is to apparently kill all the frigs first. Cruisers and up don't care about them.
Or was it that other thread about marauders and drones.. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
366
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:10:00 -
[6528] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:According to pages earlier in this thead, the secret to using salvage drones on-the-go is to apparently kill all the frigs first. Cruisers and up don't care about them. I think the secret is to not use them in the first place. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

HypoConDreAct
Shits N Giggles
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 01:36:00 -
[6529] - Quote
i like the changes a lot, think it will be a big improvement to the ships, but i still dont get why the sensor strength on these ships is so low, even the t1 hulls they based form have a higher sensor strength Why do you make a t2 hull so prone to jamming !!! |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 01:40:00 -
[6530] - Quote
HypoConDreAct wrote:i like the changes a lot, think it will be a big improvement to the ships, but i still dont get why the sensor strength on these ships is so low, even the t1 hulls they based form have a higher sensor strength Why do you make a t2 hull so prone to jamming !!!
It was originally designed to keep them out of pvp, because at the time they were the most powerful sub-cap.
Now, it's only there to further push bastion(which I do like bastion, personally) |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
366
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 02:04:00 -
[6531] - Quote
So what are the new Marauders actually geared towards then? It's obviously not PvP, and we've heard quite a few comments that some won't fare well in incursions after this. Definitely L4s, but it's not like there aren't a dozen or more hulls that also excel at L4s. There's the "shoot and loot" aspect, but again - a solid L4 mission runner + Noctis will still outperform a Marauder. Most who've trained for them will still use in that capacity, but what's the incentive? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 02:13:00 -
[6532] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So what are the new Marauders actually geared towards then? It's obviously not PvP, and we've heard quite a few comments that some won't fare well in incursions after this. Definitely L4s, but it's not like there aren't a dozen or more hulls that also excel at L4s. There's the "shoot and loot" aspect, but again - a solid L4 mission runner + Noctis will still outperform a Marauder. Most who've trained for them will still use in that capacity, but what's the incentive?
Basically, they're more or less the ultimate solo combat hull.. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:03:00 -
[6533] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:According to pages earlier in this thead, the secret to using salvage drones on-the-go is to apparently kill all the frigs first. Cruisers and up don't care about them.
Or was it that other thread about marauders and drones..
Salvage drones don't attract any aggro unless they proximity aggro, meaning there are ships you haven't shot at yet that they fly close to in order to salvage wrecks. They very very rarely get switched to unless there's a new wave spawning right on top of them.
Seriously, if you don't use salvage drones already in a marauder you're doing it wrong. It's way faster than mounting 1 puny salvager on your ship. Just mount 3 tractors and pull in cans.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:14:00 -
[6534] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Basically, they're more or less the ultimate solo combat hull.. I guess (seems a bit underwhelming for 6+ months of intensive skill training). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:21:00 -
[6535] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Basically, they're more or less the ultimate solo combat hull.. I guess (seems a bit underwhelming for 6+ months of intensive skill training). Dorororo wrote:Seriously, if you don't use salvage drones already in a marauder you're doing it wrong. It's way faster than mounting 1 puny salvager on your ship. Just mount 3 tractors and pull in cans. I just switch-out to a Noctis after and blitz-salvage the wrecks. I'm curious if the new 'tractor' units need to be present to gather wrecks and containers, of if it will continue to work if you proceed to the next room in a mission.
I would say you can drop them... The question I have is how many, and how far apart? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:34:00 -
[6536] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I would say you can drop them... The question I have is how many, and how far apart? @50m3 per tractor unit, I imagine a few anyway (especially on a Marauder or Noctis). I agree, range, tractor speed and degree of autonomy are all unanswered questions at this point. Suffice it to say, they may or may not negate the tractor bonus on the Marauders to some extent depending on just how they'll operate. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 04:58:00 -
[6537] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I would say you can drop them... The question I have is how many, and how far apart? @50m3 per tractor unit, I imagine a few anyway (especially on a Marauder or Noctis). I agree, range, tractor speed and degree of autonomy are all unanswered questions at this point. Suffice it to say, they may or may not negate the tractor bonus on the Marauders to some extent depending on just how they'll operate.
Been watching the Eve Vegas stream(replay). These structures do have to be 5km apart and 45 sec anchor. They didn't say a limit on how many you can drop, but during the video he seemed to have dropped more than one structure, though of different types, and from questions about the syphon units, it appears there isn't a limit. NPCs don't attack them. Tractor structures only tractor one item at a time, and they loot, but don't salvage. They do have a faster than normal tractor velocity. They did not give a range. Yet, for some reason they don't seem to think they'll overpower tractor bonused ships. Maybe not noctis, orca, or rorqual.... But even if their tractor range is the exact Same as golem, they'll overpower them. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 05:52:00 -
[6538] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Been watching the Eve Vegas stream(replay). These structures do have to be 5km apart and 45 sec anchor. They didn't say a limit on how many you can drop, but during the video he seemed to have dropped more than one structure, though of different types, and from questions about the syphon units, it appears there isn't a limit. NPCs don't attack them. Tractor structures only tractor one item at a time, and they loot, but don't salvage. They do have a faster than normal tractor velocity. They did not give a range. Yet, for some reason they don't seem to think they'll overpower tractor bonused ships. Maybe not noctis, orca, or rorqual.... But even if their tractor range is the exact Same as golem, they'll overpower them. Appreciate the update, thanks. 5km apart and 45 seconds is nothing... And the whole NPC immunity is whacked, since salvage drones and a Noctis will both take a beating if you're not paying attention. And then let's make them more fantastic with a faster-than-average velocity.
We got the whole "power creep" when asking for more DPS through Bastion on the Marauders, and here CCP is introducing a series of structures that has the potential to completely unbalance things. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Mr Chop-Chop
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 08:38:00 -
[6539] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Octoven wrote:To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.
Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.
Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base. If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with. Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before. If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
551
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 08:40:00 -
[6540] - Quote
Mr Chop-Chop wrote: If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?
Apparently, yes they do.
And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about...  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Mr Chop-Chop
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:06:00 -
[6541] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote: If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?
Apparently, yes they do. And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about... 
That is not true, at all. But please, make your case. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:09:00 -
[6542] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about...  Got web? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
551
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:15:00 -
[6543] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about...  Got web?
What for? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
551
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:16:00 -
[6544] - Quote
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote: If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?
Apparently, yes they do. And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about...  That is not true, at all. But please, make your case. I did, Your marauder got buffed and you call it a nerf, what's your case again? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:21:00 -
[6545] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:What for? You obviously missed part of the discussion... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
551
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:25:00 -
[6546] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:What for? You obviously missed part of the discussion... Not really, I just dismissed all your flawed arguments as invalid and therefore chose to ignore them. 
Bastion mod frees up lots of mid slots, use additional tracking comps. small drones for frigs and if you really insist on it, use one web in case anything is actually fast enough to get under your guns. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Mr Chop-Chop
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:25:00 -
[6547] - Quote
Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h Smaller drones = less isk/h Bastion is suicide in null
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
555
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:45:00 -
[6548] - Quote
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h Smaller drones = less isk/h Bastion is suicide in null
Wow, you're using a short range brawler setup for pve and complain about lacking isk/h...
Here's a hint. don't brawl in PVE, your marauder always has been and always will be to slow for that. You'll be a lot faster if you use a setup that can hit just about everything from where you are.
smaller drones... don't tell me you were stupid enough to use salvage drones to "enhance" your PVE experience with your marauder.. Oh wait, You did use sentries on frigates instead of small drones?
I can't actually decide which is more inneffective... 
Next hint(s), salvaging with a marauder is never worth it. Never has been and never will be. Not ever. Instead, just kill everything, mark the location com back later with a noctis. You'll be faster and therefore earn more isk/h.
And for the frigs, kill them with your big guns as long as they're far away and switch to small T2 drones once they're close enough. Believe me, I tried both versions, sentries arre only worth it if you have 5 of them and use a dedicated drone boat.
Bastion in null. You might want to reconsider using your Marauder in null at all if your corp/alliance cannot provide enough intel to warn you in time to unbastion your 1bil gank target. Because if your nullbear pals can't do even that, You might want to use a drake. Or maybe you need a new alliance, who knows I won't care.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Mr Chop-Chop
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:56:00 -
[6549] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote:Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h Smaller drones = less isk/h Bastion is suicide in null
Wow, you're using a short range brawler setup for pve and complain about lacking isk/h... Here's a hint. don't brawl in PVE, your marauder always has been and always will be to slow for that. You'll be a lot faster if you use a setup that can hit just about everything from where you are. smaller drones... don't tell me you were stupid enough to use salvage drones to "enhance" your PVE experience with your marauder.. Oh wait, You did use sentries on frigates instead of small drones? I can't actually decide which is more inneffective...  Next hint(s), salvaging with a marauder is never worth it. Never has been and never will be. Not ever. Instead, just kill everything, mark the location com back later with a noctis. You'll be faster and therefore earn more isk/h. And for the frigs, kill them with your big guns as long as they're far away and switch to small T2 drones once they're close enough. Believe me, I tried both versions, sentries arre only worth it if you have 5 of them and use a dedicated drone boat. Bastion in null. You might want to reconsider using your Marauder in null at all if your corp/alliance cannot provide enough intel to warn you in time to unbastion your 1bil gank target. Because if your nullbear pals can't do even that, You might want to use a drake. Or maybe you need a new alliance, who knows I won't care. 
Oh god the stupid, it hurts.
Hint! Brawling works fine, if you do the right sites the rats will spawn on top of you, and the few that get away you can easily approach with a 100m ab + overheated web. 1400 dps on something that doesnt move is good, mkay?
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
205
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:04:00 -
[6550] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax2
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:11:00 -
[6551] - Quote
Posting in support of improved tractor range for Marauders  |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
555
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:13:00 -
[6552] - Quote
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:
Oh god the stupid, it hurts.
Hint! Brawling works fine, if you do the right sites the rats will spawn on top of you, and the few that get away you can easily approach with a 100m ab + overheated web. 1400 dps on something that doesnt move is good, mkay?
And what in gods name made you think that i use salv drones? does going from hammers to hobs not reduce my income?
PVE Brawling works fine in just that one single situation were you do not have to move. Wonderfull you found the perfect applicationn for the new bastion mod. 
Even more reason to be happy about the changes.
But oh wait, change... Change is bad, we can't have that. How would we know were we'd be in ten years if stuff constantly keeps changing. Stop the change! 
No, going from Hammers to Hobs does not reduce your income unless you didn't fit any guns of your own. The very notion that this could indeed be the truth is so stupid that I won't even consider it further. The reason for that is that Hobs hit frigates better than Hammerheads it's especially noticeable if You're up against elite frigs.
If You insist on using salvage drones, don't complain about them needing space in your drone bay. Really, it's that simple. Salvage drones are mind numbingly slow get a Noctis it's worth it. I promise! Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:21:00 -
[6553] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:So what are the new Marauders actually geared towards then? It's obviously not PvP, and we've heard quite a few comments that some won't fare well in incursions after this. Definitely L4s, but it's not like there aren't a dozen or more hulls that also excel at L4s. There's the "shoot and loot" aspect, but again - a solid L4 mission runner + Noctis will still outperform a Marauder. Most who've trained for them will still use in that capacity, but what's the incentive?
Easy fail safe PvE, mega easy to fit, ****** proof tank, lol ewar immunity and insane projection.
My nightmare requires fittings compromises, faction modules, cap management etc.....Paladin negates all of these issues.
Marauders seem to be eves dummies guides to PvE.
|

Mr Chop-Chop
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:38:00 -
[6554] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote:
Oh god the stupid, it hurts.
Hint! Brawling works fine, if you do the right sites the rats will spawn on top of you, and the few that get away you can easily approach with a 100m ab + overheated web. 1400 dps on something that doesnt move is good, mkay?
And what in gods name made you think that i use salv drones? does going from hammers to hobs not reduce my income?
PVE Brawling works fine in just that one single situation were you do not have to move. Wonderfull you found the perfect applicationn for the new bastion mod.  Even more reason to be happy about the changes. But oh wait, change... Change is bad, we can't have that. How would we know were we'd be in ten years if stuff constantly keeps changing. Stop the change!  No, going from Hammers to Hobs does not reduce your income unless you didn't fit any guns of your own. The very notion that this could indeed be the truth is so stupid that I won't even consider it further. The reason for that is that Hobs hit frigates better than Hammerheads it's especially noticeable if You're up against elite frigs. If You insist on using salvage drones, don't complain about them needing space in your drone bay. Really, it's that simple. Salvage drones are mind numbingly slow get a Noctis, it's worth it. I promise!
Jesus christ. You're like a besserwisser with a 70 IQ. It's been grand talking to you, but my efforts are needed elsewhere. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
555
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:45:00 -
[6555] - Quote
Mr Chop-Chop wrote: Jesus christ. You're like a besserwisser with a 70 IQ. It's been grand talking to you, but my efforts are needed elsewhere.
 Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 11:13:00 -
[6556] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote: Jesus christ. You're like a besserwisser with a 70 IQ. It's been grand talking to you, but my efforts are needed elsewhere.
 Really? You won't even try to make your case? " sh*t ,rational argument.......scarper!!!!" If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
555
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 11:21:00 -
[6557] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote: Jesus christ. You're like a besserwisser with a 70 IQ. It's been grand talking to you, but my efforts are needed elsewhere.
 Really? You won't even try to make your case? " sh*t ,rational argument.......scarper!!!!"
Yea, I was actually waiting for the part were I could make the suggestion that he should start to use a vindicator if his normal playstyle really got so severely impacted.
But meh. Workload in the office is increasing so I don't think I'll really care anymore. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 11:51:00 -
[6558] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote: Jesus christ. You're like a besserwisser with a 70 IQ. It's been grand talking to you, but my efforts are needed elsewhere.
 Really? You won't even try to make your case? " sh*t ,rational argument.......scarper!!!!" Yea, I was actually waiting for the part were I could make the suggestion that he should start to use a vindicator if his normal playstyle really got so severely impacted. But meh. Workload in the office is increasing so I don't think I'll really care anymore. Pitty, that was shaping up to be a nice little back and fourth.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
556
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 11:53:00 -
[6559] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote: Jesus christ. You're like a besserwisser with a 70 IQ. It's been grand talking to you, but my efforts are needed elsewhere.
 Really? You won't even try to make your case? " sh*t ,rational argument.......scarper!!!!" Yea, I was actually waiting for the part were I could make the suggestion that he should start to use a vindicator if his normal playstyle really got so severely impacted. But meh. Workload in the office is increasing so I don't think I'll really care anymore. Pitty, that was shaping up to be a nice little back and fourth.
It would have been awesome.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
189
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 12:15:00 -
[6560] - Quote
These Ships are now awesome!!!
P.S. What is the Plural of Kronos? Kronosi, Kronosses, Kroni? Pls tell meeee!!! :) |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:14:00 -
[6561] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:These Ships are now awesome!!!
P.S. What is the Plural of Kronos? Kronosi, Kronosses, Kroni? Pls tell meeee!!! :) Kronuses?  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
604
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:26:00 -
[6562] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:So what are the new Marauders actually geared towards then? It's obviously not PvP, and we've heard quite a few comments that some won't fare well in incursions after this. Definitely L4s, but it's not like there aren't a dozen or more hulls that also excel at L4s. There's the "shoot and loot" aspect, but again - a solid L4 mission runner + Noctis will still outperform a Marauder. Most who've trained for them will still use in that capacity, but what's the incentive? Easy fail safe PvE, mega easy to fit, ****** proof tank, lol ewar immunity and insane projection. My nightmare requires fittings compromises, faction modules, cap management etc.....Paladin negates all of these issues. Marauders seem to be eves dummies guides to PvE.
Considering price and skill intensity, I'm perfectly fine with them doing what they were intended to do all along and being easy to use pve. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
604
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:29:00 -
[6563] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Claire Raynor wrote:These Ships are now awesome!!!
P.S. What is the Plural of Kronos? Kronosi, Kronosses, Kroni? Pls tell meeee!!! :) Kronuses? 
I think I've heard Kroni used in the alliance tournament.... But then again I've probably also heard Kronoses. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
606
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:36:00 -
[6564] - Quote
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Mr Chop-Chop wrote:Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h Smaller drones = less isk/h Bastion is suicide in null
Wow, you're using a short range brawler setup for pve and complain about lacking isk/h... Here's a hint. don't brawl in PVE, your marauder always has been and always will be to slow for that. You'll be a lot faster if you use a setup that can hit just about everything from where you are. smaller drones... don't tell me you were stupid enough to use salvage drones to "enhance" your PVE experience with your marauder.. Oh wait, You did use sentries on frigates instead of small drones? I can't actually decide which is more inneffective...  Next hint(s), salvaging with a marauder is never worth it. Never has been and never will be. Not ever. Instead, just kill everything, mark the location com back later with a noctis. You'll be faster and therefore earn more isk/h. And for the frigs, kill them with your big guns as long as they're far away and switch to small T2 drones once they're close enough. Believe me, I tried both versions, sentries arre only worth it if you have 5 of them and use a dedicated drone boat. Bastion in null. You might want to reconsider using your Marauder in null at all if your corp/alliance cannot provide enough intel to warn you in time to unbastion your 1bil gank target. Because if your nullbear pals can't do even that, You might want to use a drake. Or maybe you need a new alliance, who knows I won't care.  Oh god the stupid, it hurts. Hint! Brawling works fine, if you do the right sites the rats will spawn on top of you, and the few that get away you can easily approach with a 100m ab + overheated web. 1400 dps on something that doesnt move is good, mkay? And what in gods name made you think that i use salv drones? does going from hammers to hobs not reduce my income?
OOH, ooh, ohohohohohoh!!!!!!
I have an idea!!!! It's so crazy that CCP actually implemented it on the ships!!!! I mean, if not for the words, I would never have thought about it!!!
If you're in a mission where rats spawn on top of you... wait... I'm too excited... I need to calm down....
Ok, I'm better..... you can...... MJD!!!!
I KNOW!!!!
Crazy right???? |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:51:00 -
[6565] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: OOH, ooh, ohohohohohoh!!!!!!
I have an idea!!!! It's so crazy that CCP actually implemented it on the ships!!!! I mean, if not for the words, I would never have thought about it!!!
If you're in a mission where rats spawn on top of you... wait... I'm too excited... I need to calm down....
Ok, I'm better..... you can...... MJD!!!!
I KNOW!!!!
Crazy right????
Arguments smashed by logic.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:03:00 -
[6566] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
OOH, ooh, ohohohohohoh!!!!!!
I have an idea!!!! It's so crazy that CCP actually implemented it on the ships!!!! I mean, if not for the words, I would never have thought about it!!!
If you're in a mission where rats spawn on top of you... wait... I'm too excited... I need to calm down....
Ok, I'm better..... you can...... MJD!!!!
I KNOW!!!!
Crazy right????
Good luck MJDing from an enemy pilot in null while waiting for the bastion mode to finish and seeing him in grind in about 20-30s.
This new update just makes it yet another mjd highsec carebear ship, still inferior in dps and tank to navy(CHEAPER)-pirate BCs, while having a high skill requirement. Still with outdated bonuses. |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:03:00 -
[6567] - Quote
- |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:07:00 -
[6568] - Quote
Tramar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
OOH, ooh, ohohohohohoh!!!!!!
I have an idea!!!! It's so crazy that CCP actually implemented it on the ships!!!! I mean, if not for the words, I would never have thought about it!!!
If you're in a mission where rats spawn on top of you... wait... I'm too excited... I need to calm down....
Ok, I'm better..... you can...... MJD!!!!
I KNOW!!!!
Crazy right????
Good luck MJDing from an enemy pilot in null while waiting for the bastion mode to finish and seeing him in grind in about 20-30s. This new update just makes it yet another mjd highsec carebear ship, still inferior in dps and tank to navy(CHEAPER)-pirate BSs, while having a high skill requirement. Still with outdated bonuses.
HUH?
Why would you be worried about MJD or bastion when a pvp target is in system? Shouldn't you be more focused on docking up like all the other null bears? Expecially in a freaking Marauder... Those things aren't cheap, ya know?
They're also still not truly intended for pvp, they just have niche capabilities in pvp.
That said, and MJD works great for pve where you don't get warp scrambled.
edit...
Furthermore... I've been to null.... If you're not actively engaged in pvp, aren't you required to dock up in the event any non-friendly target comes into system? |

Tilly Delnero
Licorne Ventures Ltd.
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:11:00 -
[6569] - Quote
Replacing the local tank bonus with a pointless web bonus? Please tell me this is a belated April fool. Adding MJD bonus alongside the range bonus of the static Bastion module then returning a 10km web bonus makes zero sense.
Please stop listening to whiny overentitled niche-setup Incursion runner(s) who can't adapt, and roll back to a version of the Marauders that doesn't make me wish I'd bought a Nightmare instead.  |

baltec1
Bat Country
8326
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:12:00 -
[6570] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tramar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
OOH, ooh, ohohohohohoh!!!!!!
I have an idea!!!! It's so crazy that CCP actually implemented it on the ships!!!! I mean, if not for the words, I would never have thought about it!!!
If you're in a mission where rats spawn on top of you... wait... I'm too excited... I need to calm down....
Ok, I'm better..... you can...... MJD!!!!
I KNOW!!!!
Crazy right????
Good luck MJDing from an enemy pilot in null while waiting for the bastion mode to finish and seeing him in grind in about 20-30s. This new update just makes it yet another mjd highsec carebear ship, still inferior in dps and tank to navy(CHEAPER)-pirate BSs, while having a high skill requirement. Still with outdated bonuses. HUH? Why would you be worried about MJD or bastion when a pvp target is in system? Shouldn't you be more focused on docking up like all the other null bears? Expecially in a freaking Marauder... Those things aren't cheap, ya know? They're also still not truly intended for pvp, they just have niche capabilities in pvp. That said, and MJD works great for pve where you don't get warp scrambled.
I am going to love the new frigate gangs in my golem.
|
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:13:00 -
[6571] - Quote
Tramar wrote: Crazy right????
Good luck MJDing from an enemy pilot in null while waiting for the bastion mode to finish and seeing him in grind in about 20-30s.
This new update just makes it yet another mjd highsec carebear ship, still inferior in dps and tank to navy(CHEAPER)-pirate BSs, while having a high skill requirement. Still with outdated bonuses.[/quote]
If you actually use Your marauder in Nullsec, I'd suspect You'll have at least one large neut fitted. Just in case someone in a cruiser or frig wants to scram/warp disrupt you.
And as a further note, anything that's beyond your neut range and can still put a scram on you will most likely have a paper thin tank, your marauder should be able to waste that pretty fast.
That said, almost any other battleship in the same situation would have the same problem. Some pirate BS' excluded. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:16:00 -
[6572] - Quote
Tilly Delnero wrote:Replacing the local tank bonus with a pointless web bonus? Please tell me this is a belated April fool. Adding MJD bonus alongside the range bonus of the static Bastion module then returning a 10km web bonus makes zero sense. Please stop listening to whiny overentitled niche-setup Incursion runner(s) who can't adapt, and roll back to a version of the Marauders that doesn't make me wish I'd bought a Nightmare instead. 
Aren't you about 100 pages late?
That was iteration two which has then bee reverted to iteration one which has been further altered to iteration three. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Tilly Delnero
Licorne Ventures Ltd.
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:26:00 -
[6573] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Aren't you about 100 pages late?
That was iteration two which has then bee reverted to iteration one which has been further altered to iteration three. You have a point. Hmm, seems I've been successfully trolled by someone in-game yet again. Maybe next time I'll double-check the page number and only post after having a full nights sleep... 
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8329
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 15:27:00 -
[6574] - Quote
Silly Tilly |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
373
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:23:00 -
[6575] - Quote
Personally, slowing the Marauders down, giving them a MJD bonus and then bringing it to a dead stop with Bastion all seem to be a bit at odds with each other. To me "Marauder" doesn't imply plodding along - it suggests fast hit and runs.
GÇó Increase the speed (not necessarily "Mach" fast, but faster than each Faction equivalent by 5-10 m/s) GÇó Retain the MJD feature/bonuses and give them full T2 resists already GÇó Turn Bastion into a performance-based module with the following bonuses (per) Marauder level: +10% sensor strength, +10% scan resolution, +10% cooling and +5% to shield/armor/hull resistances
By tying Bastion into the Marauder skill, it actually justifies training it and rewards those players who already made the commitment. With the higher T2 resists and no longer being stationary, Bastion bonuses have been adjusted down, removed or replaced entirely. Because Bastion still runs in 60-second increments, effectively managing the overheating and cooling aspects of Marauders will prove to be a challenging skill to master. However, it does offer some interesting scenarios:
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for an attempted escape (overheating a MWD to get clear to initiate a MJD) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for short-range offense (overheating webs, scrams and weapons, increasing sensor strength and providing increased defense against EW) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for rapid engagements (overheating an afterburner or MWD to close range to targets) GÇó Engaging Bastion as a limited tank (base resistance increase; overheating active resistance and increasing the boost/repair rate while reducing cycle times) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

zentary
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:39:00 -
[6576] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Personally, slowing the Marauders down, giving them a MJD bonus and then bringing it to a dead stop with Bastion all seem to be a bit at odds with each other. To me "Marauder" doesn't imply plodding along - it suggests fast hit and runs.
GÇó Increase the speed (not necessarily "Mach" fast, but faster than each Faction equivalent by 5-10 m/s) GÇó Retain the MJD feature/bonuses and give them full T2 resists already GÇó Turn Bastion into a performance-based module with the following bonuses (per) Marauder level: +10% sensor strength, +10% scan resolution, +10% cooling and +5% to shield/armor/hull resistances
By tying Bastion into the Marauder skill, it actually justifies training it and rewards those players who already made the commitment. With the higher T2 resists and no longer being stationary, Bastion bonuses have been adjusted down, removed or replaced entirely. Because Bastion still runs in 60-second increments, effectively managing the overheating and cooling aspects of Marauders will prove to be a challenging skill to master. However, it does offer some interesting scenarios:
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for an attempted escape (overheating a MWD to get clear to initiate a MJD) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for short-range offense (overheating webs, scrams and weapons, increasing sensor strength and providing increased defense against EW) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for rapid engagements (overheating an afterburner or MWD to close range to targets) GÇó Engaging Bastion as a limited tank (base resistance increase; overheating active resistance and increasing the boost/repair rate while reducing cycle times)
I do agree with you on the class marauders and what they should be. However, look at their names paladin and golem just don't depict a fast attacker. Those titles depict a ship which is both a heavy hitter and one who can take heavy blows which also equates to being rather slow. That and they were never meant to be pvp ships
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8330
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:47:00 -
[6577] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: GÇó Increase the speed (not necessarily "Mach" fast, but faster than each Faction equivalent by 5-10 m/s) GÇó Retain the MJD feature/bonuses and give them full T2 resists already GÇó Turn Bastion into a performance-based module with the following bonuses (per) Marauder level: +10% sensor strength, +10% scan resolution, +10% cooling and +5% to shield/armor/hull resistances
By tying Bastion into the Marauder skill, it actually justifies training it and rewards those players who already made the commitment. With the higher T2 resists and no longer being stationary, Bastion bonuses have been adjusted down, removed or replaced entirely. Because Bastion still runs in 60-second increments, effectively managing the overheating and cooling aspects of Marauders will prove to be a challenging skill to master. However, it does offer some interesting scenarios:
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for an attempted escape (overheating a MWD to get clear to initiate a MJD) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for short-range offense (overheating webs, scrams and weapons, increasing sensor strength and providing increased defense against EW) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for rapid engagements (overheating an afterburner or MWD to close range to targets) GÇó Engaging Bastion as a limited tank (base resistance increase; overheating active resistance and increasing the boost/repair rate while reducing cycle times)
You just invalidated every other BS. |

zentary
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 17:04:00 -
[6578] - Quote
ok ccp wtf kinda logic is this....
Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
If your that worried why even give the paladin a range bous per level? That's like the epitome of backwards thinking..... How changing that buff to somthing else so this thought of needing some stacking penelty in bastion mode isn't needed. it just hurts every other ship just because you didn't think of another bonus to give the paladin. Give it tracking speed per level or 2% resists per level for armor or scan res per level (i know it's dumb) Or even 2% armor amount per level since amarr are extreme armor freaks. I Just don't see a point in giving a bonus to a ship and then penelizeing everyone else because of some off form of logic on your part.
I do hope you reply to this question and somwhat of a resolution to this conudrum of yours.
You guys think of some off things to fix a simple problem like this all the time.... Ohh.... this one shoots too far so instead of chaning a bonus (a new one mind you) you penelize every ship of that type for it. You guys often go to extremes when only a small simple fix is needed. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
373
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 18:39:00 -
[6579] - Quote
What's the point, really. There's been almost zero interaction from the devs and almost 6,000 odd posts later we're back at a slightly modified version of the first iteration. This has been the case for almost every rebalancing effort, ie: what you first see is more or less what you're going to end up with.
Which I'm fine with. But let's dispense with the guise that this actually provides an opportunity to have any kind of real input or interaction with CCP devs. This is a basically an announcement forum for changes that are more or less already carved in stone, with the "features and ideas" aspect basically here for us to entertain ourselves with.
This isn't our game - we're merely tourists. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 19:10:00 -
[6580] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:What's the point, really. There's been almost zero interaction from the devs and almost 6,000 odd posts later we're back at a slightly modified version of the first iteration. This has been the case for almost every rebalancing effort, ie: what you first see is more or less what you're going to end up with.
Which I'm fine with. But let's dispense with the guise that this actually provides an opportunity to have any kind of real input or interaction with CCP devs. This is a basically an announcement forum for changes that are more or less already carved in stone, with the "features and ideas" aspect basically here for us to entertain ourselves with.
This isn't our game - we're merely tourists.
aye; allot of wasted time and effort; |
|

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 19:44:00 -
[6581] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:What's the point, really. There's been almost zero interaction from the devs and almost 6,000 odd posts later we're back at a slightly modified version of the first iteration. This has been the case for almost every rebalancing effort, ie: what you first see is more or less what you're going to end up with.
Which I'm fine with. But let's dispense with the guise that this actually provides an opportunity to have any kind of real input or interaction with CCP devs. This is a basically an announcement forum for changes that are more or less already carved in stone, with the "features and ideas" aspect basically here for us to entertain ourselves with.
This isn't our game - we're merely tourists. What was first suggested was superior. That's why it remains, with a few necessary tweaks.
Incursionbear's whinings over webs that have **** all to do with the rest of the hull were eventually ignored, and they should have been.
The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
373
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:10:00 -
[6582] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one. I think this can largely be attributed more to actual testing on SISI than anything informative suggested here. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:11:00 -
[6583] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:What's the point, really. There's been almost zero interaction from the devs and almost 6,000 odd posts later we're back at a slightly modified version of the first iteration. This has been the case for almost every rebalancing effort, ie: what you first see is more or less what you're going to end up with.
Which I'm fine with. But let's dispense with the guise that this actually provides an opportunity to have any kind of real input or interaction with CCP devs. This is a basically an announcement forum for changes that are more or less already carved in stone, with the "features and ideas" aspect basically here for us to entertain ourselves with.
This isn't our game - we're merely tourists. We are back here with the first iteration for a reason. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:15:00 -
[6584] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one. I think this can largely be attributed to testing on SISI than anything informative suggested on here. The thread added an extra " we told you so" element to the sisi tests I think. If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
373
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:16:00 -
[6585] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:We are back here with the first iteration for a reason. Yeah, because certain elements were always set in stone. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
373
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:17:00 -
[6586] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:The thread added an extra " we told you so" element to the sisi tests I think. You won't get any argument from me, but that kind of establishes my point that these threads really don't seem to be given the weight that they should. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:18:00 -
[6587] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:We are back here with the first iteration for a reason. Yeah, because certain elements were always set in stone. Lol, probably closer to the truth than you'd like to think,  If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
854
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 21:43:00 -
[6588] - Quote
zentary wrote:ok ccp wtf kinda logic is this.... CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
If your that worried why even give the paladin a range bonus per level? That's like the epitome of backwards thinking..... How changing that buff to something else so this thought of needing some stacking penalty in bastion mode isn't needed. it just hurts every other ship just because you didn't think of another bonus to give the paladin. Give it tracking speed per level or 2% resists per level for armor or scan res per level (i know it's dumb) Or even 2% armor amount per level since amarr are extreme armor freaks. I Just don't see a point in giving a bonus to a ship and then penalizing everyone else because of some off form of logic on your part. I do hope you reply to this question and somewhat of a resolution to this conundrum of yours. You guys think of some off things to fix a simple problem like this all the time.... Ohh.... this one shoots too far so instead of chaining a bonus (a new one mind you) you penalize every ship of that type for it. You guys often go to extremes when only a small simple fix is needed.
Or instead of that, CCP could.. you know.. make Scorch not completely ridiculous. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
591
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:22:00 -
[6589] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:zentary wrote:ok ccp wtf kinda logic is this.... CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
If your that worried why even give the paladin a range bonus per level? That's like the epitome of backwards thinking..... How changing that buff to something else so this thought of needing some stacking penalty in bastion mode isn't needed. it just hurts every other ship just because you didn't think of another bonus to give the paladin. Give it tracking speed per level or 2% resists per level for armor or scan res per level (i know it's dumb) Or even 2% armor amount per level since amarr are extreme armor freaks. I Just don't see a point in giving a bonus to a ship and then penalizing everyone else because of some off form of logic on your part. I do hope you reply to this question and somewhat of a resolution to this conundrum of yours. You guys think of some off things to fix a simple problem like this all the time.... Ohh.... this one shoots too far so instead of chaining a bonus (a new one mind you) you penalize every ship of that type for it. You guys often go to extremes when only a small simple fix is needed. Or instead of that, CCP could.. you know.. make Scorch not completely ridiculous.
Marauders will make some peopel feel what is the drawback of scorch for real. Lower trackign in the lowest trackign weapon wil be a PAIN when you cannnot move to reduce transversal.
Scorch is not overpowered, Mega Pulses altough coudl loose the enhanced trackin they got in 2009 for no sane reason. That would keep scorch in check
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
856
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 00:21:00 -
[6590] - Quote
See, they won't feel that pain at all and here's why: Scorch reaches out into beam laser territory. In order to match the range of Scorch with a beam laser, you have to use X-Ray or higher. With 70k optimals on Scorch in Bastion, you can just pick everything off before it comes near your guns at all.
I'm not saying that Scorch needs a massive range nerf but if it's the only reason that the bastion module's range bonuses remain stacking penalized then maybe that's indicative of something. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 02:00:00 -
[6591] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:See, they won't feel that pain at all and here's why: Scorch reaches out into beam laser territory. In order to match the range of Scorch with a beam laser, you have to use X-Ray or higher. With 70k optimals on Scorch in Bastion, you can just pick everything off before it comes near your guns at all.
I'm not saying that Scorch needs a massive range nerf but if it's the only reason that the bastion module's range bonuses remain stacking penalized then maybe that's indicative of something.
Without a stacking penalty, you would be looking at upwards of 75km (maybe more) with jav torps. Granted, Fury can go 208km with bastion as it is now, and that's at 900 dps or more on Golem, compared to 750 or so with Javs. |

Tilly Delnero
Licorne Ventures Ltd.
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 03:31:00 -
[6592] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I think I've heard Kroni used in the alliance tournament.... But then again I've probably also heard Kronoses. I've also heard 'Kit-soon' and 'A-bad-un', so don't take AT pronunciations as gospel.  |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
357
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 04:00:00 -
[6593] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:What's the point, really. There's been almost zero interaction from the devs and almost 6,000 odd posts later we're back at a slightly modified version of the first iteration. This has been the case for almost every rebalancing effort, ie: what you first see is more or less what you're going to end up with.
Which I'm fine with. But let's dispense with the guise that this actually provides an opportunity to have any kind of real input or interaction with CCP devs. This is a basically an announcement forum for changes that are more or less already carved in stone, with the "features and ideas" aspect basically here for us to entertain ourselves with.
This isn't our game - we're merely tourists.
to be fair most of the posts were pretty ******. You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
357
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 04:00:00 -
[6594] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: GÇó Increase the speed (not necessarily "Mach" fast, but faster than each Faction equivalent by 5-10 m/s) GÇó Retain the MJD feature/bonuses and give them full T2 resists already GÇó Turn Bastion into a performance-based module with the following bonuses (per) Marauder level: +10% sensor strength, +10% scan resolution, +10% cooling and +5% to shield/armor/hull resistances
By tying Bastion into the Marauder skill, it actually justifies training it and rewards those players who already made the commitment. With the higher T2 resists and no longer being stationary, Bastion bonuses have been adjusted down, removed or replaced entirely. Because Bastion still runs in 60-second increments, effectively managing the overheating and cooling aspects of Marauders will prove to be a challenging skill to master. However, it does offer some interesting scenarios:
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for an attempted escape (overheating a MWD to get clear to initiate a MJD) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for short-range offense (overheating webs, scrams and weapons, increasing sensor strength and providing increased defense against EW) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for rapid engagements (overheating an afterburner or MWD to close range to targets) GÇó Engaging Bastion as a limited tank (base resistance increase; overheating active resistance and increasing the boost/repair rate while reducing cycle times)
You just invalidated every other BS.
but I have every bs 5 and marauders 5. I DESERVE an I win button! You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 04:38:00 -
[6595] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:We are back here with the first iteration for a reason. Yeah, because certain elements were always set in stone. Or because second iteration was rubbish trying to fit even more heavily contested niche roles than what we have now. Current proposal may or may not in the end find its place, but at least it won't force anything off into obscurity (or suffer the same fate, but without even testing any waters). |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 07:31:00 -
[6596] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: GÇó Increase the speed (not necessarily "Mach" fast, but faster than each Faction equivalent by 5-10 m/s) GÇó Retain the MJD feature/bonuses and give them full T2 resists already GÇó Turn Bastion into a performance-based module with the following bonuses (per) Marauder level: +10% sensor strength, +10% scan resolution, +10% cooling and +5% to shield/armor/hull resistances
By tying Bastion into the Marauder skill, it actually justifies training it and rewards those players who already made the commitment. With the higher T2 resists and no longer being stationary, Bastion bonuses have been adjusted down, removed or replaced entirely. Because Bastion still runs in 60-second increments, effectively managing the overheating and cooling aspects of Marauders will prove to be a challenging skill to master. However, it does offer some interesting scenarios:
GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for an attempted escape (overheating a MWD to get clear to initiate a MJD) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for short-range offense (overheating webs, scrams and weapons, increasing sensor strength and providing increased defense against EW) GÇó Engaging Bastion to allow for rapid engagements (overheating an afterburner or MWD to close range to targets) GÇó Engaging Bastion as a limited tank (base resistance increase; overheating active resistance and increasing the boost/repair rate while reducing cycle times)
You just invalidated every other BS.
You mean, just like the HACs can defeat their T1 coutnerpart the absolute majority of time?
There is nothgin wrong on t2 beign stronger. And they should be. As long as they are not vaqslty stronger against ALL "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
378
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 08:25:00 -
[6597] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:to be fair most of the posts were pretty ******. Enough were bang-on, though.
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Or because second iteration was rubbish trying to fit even more heavily contested niche roles than what we have now. Current proposal may or may not in the end find its place, but at least it won't force anything off into obscurity (or suffer the same fate, but without even testing any waters). Not really. The new model was set in stone, the animation and Bastion were tied together and set in stone and the MJD features unique to the Marauder class were also set in stone. The only thing that really changed was the extent of nerfing. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8334
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 08:51:00 -
[6598] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:to be fair most of the posts were pretty ******. Enough were bang-on, though. Barrogh Habalu wrote:Or because second iteration was rubbish trying to fit even more heavily contested niche roles than what we have now. Current proposal may or may not in the end find its place, but at least it won't force anything off into obscurity (or suffer the same fate, but without even testing any waters). Not really. The new model was set in stone, the animation and Bastion were tied together and set in stone and the MJD features unique to the Marauder class were also set in stone. The only thing that really changed was the extent of nerfing.
Which as it turns out isnt a nerf but a big boost in capability. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 09:23:00 -
[6599] - Quote
Another thing i find funny ( because I would be moderated if I used to intended word) is.. why 3 of the marauders lost 5 ms of max speed, while the vargur lost 20 ?
WHy this damm homogenixation? Why this huge effort to make everything bland and equal?
Why dont we make them exact same ship s then and just change the weapons? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
380
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 09:26:00 -
[6600] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Which as it turns out isnt a nerf but a big boost in capability. Iteration 3 was "nerf lite" compared to Iteration 1. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
560
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 09:32:00 -
[6601] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Why dont we make them exact same ship s then and just change the weapons?
I guess it's easier.
You can create 4 balanced ships in a few weeks if all of those 4 ships are mostly the same.
You'd need a lot more time if those four ships were completely different but still balanced to each other AND their T1 counterpart. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 09:49:00 -
[6602] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Why dont we make them exact same ship s then and just change the weapons?
I guess it's easier. You can create 4 balanced ships in a few weeks if all of those 4 ships are mostly the same. You'd need a lot more time if those four ships were completely different but still balanced to each other AND their T1 counterpart.
aa i was under the impression that CCP employees were PAID to do their job. If I proposed to my boss doing a horrible work just because that way woudl be easier.. I would loose my job... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
560
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 10:02:00 -
[6603] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: aa i was under the impression that CCP employees were PAID to do their job. If I proposed to my boss doing a horrible work just because that way woudl be easier.. I would loose my job...
there's only a minority of people that think that the work they did was horrible.
Another minority has already tested the new marauders and think they're awesome and the other 99% of EVE players simply don't care. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 10:14:00 -
[6604] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Incursionbear's whinings over webs that have **** all to do with the rest of the hull were eventually ignored, and they should have been.
Except that a lot of pvp people also complained about it. Anybody with a clue about pvp should realize that the only real application where the hulls would be worth the price tag is jumping into a low sec gate camp or station games, where the shield marauders are miles better by her far higher tanking numbers, by ASBs, being far less affected by neuting and pushing out more dps. The armor marauders without the web bonus have no place in the meta game here. This is why pvp players complained. Beside the reason why Inc players use them is because most that organize and put together fleet concepts know ships fairly well and how to utilize her strengths, and they all will drop marauders with the changes, because they become garbage outside of mjd and bastion use(both completely useless in RR environments). They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them.
Ravasta Helugo wrote:The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one.
Guess what people complained about the speed, agility, drones and EHP? Exactly the people that actually fly marauders instead of the guys that post that they need zero speed because of mjd and a single set of light drones is enough because they can't figure out how to utilize the drone bay halve way decent.
That brings me back to my actually question, for the simply reason that I still have zero use for marauders with the changes:
The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
380
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 10:44:00 -
[6605] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Guess what people complained about the speed, agility, drones and EHP? Exactly the people that actually fly marauders instead of the guys that post that they need zero speed because of mjd and a single set of light drones is enough because they can't figure out how to utilize the drone bay halve way decent. This. As I indicated, the role change of the Marauders (not unlike the recent changes to HACs) was predetermined in Interation 1 before this thread even began. Iteration 2 with toned-down webs was an attempt to pacify those players affected most, but really didn't please anyone - which leaves us at Iteration 3: basically Iteration 1 with less nerfing (screw those affected).
I neither like nor dislike the new Marauders, I just think it was a class that had lot of potential and this will end up being a missed opportunity. I run L4s, and I didn't need the old Marauders to run L4s - and the new Marauders certainly won't improve on that any. In fact, they'll be slower with less DPS. I don't care about Batsion because I barely use the tank on my Faction battleship as is. And most of the Faction and Pirate battleships apply damage more effectively. MJD? Already use it, but not for this triangulation BS that people are floating around in an attempt to justify it. That's what MWD is for, and however good you are with trigonometry I'll wager I'll be well into the next stage of the mission while you're still screwing around or slowboating it to the gate.
These changes aren't going to see Marauders used in PvP, and from the sounds of it those who run Incursions are already looking at ditching them. Prices on Marauders have also dropped 10%, so I wonder if we're being sent a subtle message from the market? Who will use Marauders? New players that rely on Battle Clinic because they couldn't fit if their life depended on it. It really seems as though we're aiming for the shallow end of the gene pool with some of these changes here, but maybe that's the whole point.
I could point out that almost no one likes the changes to the new Golem model, and even some fan-based changes that were quickly cranked out have been more well-received. So again, this isn't a "discussion". These are the changes and this is the direction Marauders are going in. I'm not entirely sure why we've hung on to the notion that this was going to change in the last 6000 posts... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
380
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:05:00 -
[6606] - Quote
Here's another idea for Marauders:
GÇó All original bonuses (including webs), slightly increased sensor strength GÇó Partial T2 resists, revised specifications and new MJD bonuses in Iteration-3 GÇó Bastion provides the shield/armor/hull resistances (only) and a 50% reduction in capacitor use for MWD (none of this stationary crap). When active, optimal/falloff and missile flight time are reduced by 25%. No EM warfare immunity.
What you end up with is a class with improved (but not obscene) tanking, and has penalties for both movement and remaining stationary. Bastion thus becomes a double-edged sword: When stationary, it provides more tank but at the expense of weapons effectiveness. When moving, while speed is increased this explodes the signature radius making tank less effective. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:16:00 -
[6607] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote: Another minority has already tested the new marauders...
Yep!
Debora Tsung wrote: ...and think they're awesome...
No!
Debora Tsung wrote: Right now we've got maybe 10 people that are constantly bitching around how they don't like the new marauders. Can't be more.
Yes!
After testing, testing and more testing, I found new marauders no different than a sentry dominix + proposed bonuses. Only difference is that now there is a button to change marauder into sentry domi to make it look like interesting.
I'm simply sad to see that people are buying it. Ofc, ccp won't be able to make me happy on this one, since they won't be able to satisfy whole crowd's needs, but at least I wanted to see something "interesting" for my playstyle in the iteration.
Still having hope until Nov 19th...  |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:33:00 -
[6608] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Here's another idea for Marauders. I think this is the best concept I've come up with yet, because it's relatively simple and allows Marauders to be used in either a short or long-range capacity.
GÇó All original bonuses (including webs), slightly increased sensor strength GÇó Partial T2 resists, revised specifications and new MJD bonuses in Iteration-3 GÇó Bastion provides the shield/armor/hull resistances (only) and a 25% reduction in capacitor use for MWD (none of this stationary crap). When active, optimal/falloff and missile flight time are reduced by 25%. No EM warfare immunity.
What you end up with is a class with improved (but not obscene) tanking, and has penalties for both movement and remaining stationary. Bastion thus becomes a double-edged sword: When stationary, it provides more tank but at the expense of weapons effectiveness. When moving, MWD is more efficient - but this negates the tank to some extent and the extra speed is again needed to compensate for reduced weapons range.
It would be nice for a change to actually "fly" some of these ships (as opposed to "turtling" them).
Tried to mean this at least 5 times. Unfortunately, people find "turtling" or "sitting" more interesting than flying the ship actually. I never be able to understand this. I feel like I am seen as either a moron within the crowd, or just someone without brain.
- People will tell you "you won't have to fit in that way in order to do missions" - true. The only thing is, with the new iteration there is simply nothing new or "interesting" for me. I can do this already with sentry drone sniper BS. With 100km range, most of the npcs' ewars won't land on you anyway, which will also make ewar immunity useless in pve.
- People will tell you "this is interesting". I see nothing interesting for pve. Sitting and shooting? The big, happy uncle is upgrading your "F" key to "F1" ! Happy new year!
- People will tell you "you will have much better tank" - I have never needed that much tank in pve anyway, why add more? Unless, however, if ccp plans to put harder missions with greatly increased npc dps. Or, escalating lvl4 missions to give this buffed tanking a reason.
- People will tell you to use beam structure. So, why I trained for Marauder? How much cargo space that structure will take? Will it improve my tractor job? Will I have enough space to get all the loot after fitting this structure? Marauder's tractor beam range bonus is what was outdated at first place. I didn't see this was adressed. Still...
And so on... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
381
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:40:00 -
[6609] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Tried to mean this at least 5 times. Unfortunately, people find "turtling" or "sitting" more interesting than flying the ship actually. I never be able to understand this. I feel like I am seen as either a moron within the crowd, or just someone without brain.
- People will tell you "you won't have to fit in that way in order to do missions" - true. The only thing is, with the new iteration there is simply nothing new or "interesting" for me. I can do this already with sentry drone sniper BS. With 100km range, most of the npcs' ewars won't land on you anyway, which will also make ewar immunity useless in pve.
- People will tell you "this is interesting". I see nothing interesting for pve. Sitting and shooting? The big, happy uncle is upgrading your "F" key to "F1" ! Happy new year!
- People will tell you "you will have much better tank" - I have never needed that much tank in pve anyway, why add more? Unless, however, if ccp plans to put harder missions with greatly increased npc dps. Or, escalating lvl4 missions to give this buffed tanking a reason.
- People will tell you to use beam structure. So, why I trained for Marauder? How much cargo space that structure will take? Will it improve my tractor job? Will I have enough space to get all the loot after fitting this structure? Marauder's tractor beam range bonus is what was outdated at first place. I didn't see this was adressed. Still...
And so on... Exactly! If you want to turtle, that's fine - but that type of gameplay shouldn't be forced on everyone! Why would you waste half a year training for Marauders... as has been pointed out, even capital ships training is less intensive. To use the quote, training for Marauders is a lot like ************ without the payoff... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:42:00 -
[6610] - Quote
Eh, ignore that post. Laziness and lack of attention led to stupidity. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8336
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 12:14:00 -
[6611] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Which as it turns out isnt a nerf but a big boost in capability. Iteration 3 was "nerf lite" compared to Iteration 1.
What we are getting is much better than what we currently have. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 12:25:00 -
[6612] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:So from what I can see so far, 0,0005% of all eve players do not like the new marauders... Sorry, but I#m not impressed.
I don't really know anybody that currently uses marauders in a halve way decent way that likes the changes, while you hear a crap load of useless feedback for people that are novice to the ship class or don't fly them at all.
You can see this in the arguments:
- A marauder got issues tanking L4 or higher level pve content, what is nonsense for L4(they can run with 2-3 slot tank) and actually are extreme good in utilizing RR for bigger stuff. - A marauder can active tank VGs, again a useless ability for people actually fly in marauder gangs in Incs, because they can spider tank them already while not wasting slots on active tank and can use tracking links. - A marauder can do L5, again a Marauder can do them already if you pair it up with a logi(that saves you the cap booster and makes it super easy to tank by the split agro). Then again sentry carriers are better at it already. - A marauder can solo C4 or even C5, same stuff as for L5 applies here. - A marauder can do 10/10, then again a ship with a small sig is mostly suited better for thanking them, reaching them(if not all your locals are baby blue) and got a better chance to get back with the loot. - A marauder will be very good for undock pvp and busting gate camps, yes I even agree here, but it is very predictable, similar as if you see a hype or maelstrom doing the same. Also it is very small niche application for pvp at best and the armor marauders, that lose the web bonuses will be far worse at it, because they offer a lot less tank(after drugs, asbs, links) while offer nothing interesting in return. - They would be good as sniper BS, while people actually do pvp with sniper setups complain since ages that you will be probed out quicker then you can align in a BS, leave alone doing the same to a BS that sits there for a hole minute. If you don't use bastion, there is hardly any point why not to use a faction BS that is cheaper, got the higher mobility and in some cases also the better damage output. - They would be generally good with bastion and mjd in pvp, what is nonsense. The arena where a active tank would matter is low sec and you have scrams on nearly every hull, rendering the mjd pointless, for bigger stuff in 0.0 the inability to get remote rep combined with the often bigger gangs means that active tank will not save you and the lack of mobility make you a easy target in a billion isk BS.
On the flip site you have:
- A fairly real drone bandwidth, speed and web nerf, that reduces the potential for nearly any application, for anybody that run with mwd and max gank already faster than the new bastion fittings for L4 and if you do Incs or use RR bastion and mjd offers nothing. - A dev that completely ignores any kind of flaw on the current marauders that actually would need addressing(since years), in form of a "one size, suits all" change that gives them a new niche while making them pointless for most of her old applications:
-> the Kronos needs a bigger drone bay and 5 sentry's since like 2007 and a sentry optimal/tracking bonus would finally make the hull more a fleshed out med range platform compared to the vindicator or navy mega -> the Vargur isn't a bad ship, it is just worse in nearly every aspect compared to the mach, a optimal bonus would make it better with artillery at medium range, combined with a mwd cap use bonus(that every marauder should have) it would be more appealing if you do a lot of repositioning on the grid to for proper artillery use -> the Golem really needs more speed(instead of less, what is hilarious bad) and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus(yes torps only) to become useful as the the dedicated torpedo platform that it used to be, again higher mobility and mwd cap use bonus makes it fairly different compared to the CNR and other missile platforms and a outstanding ship in her niche - the Paladin is mostly fine, it is the best marauder, it could use a tracking bonus, because my results when I move around in my navy Apoc(also mwd fitted) are a lot better, regarding hitting stuff while being on the move
I could even live with the marauders as they are, since they are a lot more useful to me this way, but why not simply add a 2. marauder line. People that like the bastion idea get something out of it, people that don't got any use for it will still be able to fly at least the same ships they use since years. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 13:58:00 -
[6613] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Here's another idea for Marauders. I think this is the best concept I've come up with yet, because it's relatively simple and allows Marauders to be used in either a short or long-range capacity.
GÇó All original bonuses (including webs), slightly increased sensor strength GÇó Partial T2 resists, revised specifications and new MJD bonuses in Iteration-3 GÇó Bastion provides the shield/armor/hull resistances (only) and a 25% reduction in capacitor use for MWD (none of this stationary crap). When active, optimal/falloff and missile flight time are reduced by 25%. No EM warfare immunity.
What you end up with is a class with improved (but not obscene) tanking, and has penalties for both movement and remaining stationary. Bastion thus becomes a double-edged sword: When stationary, it provides more tank but at the expense of weapons effectiveness. When moving, MWD is more efficient - but this negates the tank to some extent and the extra speed is again needed to compensate for reduced weapons range.
It would be nice for a change to actually "fly" some of these ships (as opposed to "turtling" them).
it seems you want a PVP uber boat than a PVE ship.. disagree, sorry.. i would like to see "web bonus" on pirate versions more than "used to be PVE oriented" ships
The Djego wrote: -> the Kronos needs a bigger drone bay and 5 sentry's since like 2007 and a sentry optimal/tracking bonus would finally make the hull more a fleshed out med range platform compared to the vindicator or navy mega -> the Vargur isn't a bad ship, it is just worse in nearly every aspect compared to the mach, a optimal bonus would make it better with artillery at medium range, combined with a mwd cap use bonus(that every marauder should have) it would be more appealing if you do a lot of repositioning on the grid to for proper artillery use -> the Golem really needs more speed(instead of less, what is hilarious bad) and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus(yes torps only) to become useful as the the dedicated torpedo platform that it used to be, again higher mobility and mwd cap use bonus makes it fairly different compared to the CNR and other missile platforms and a outstanding ship in her niche - the Paladin is mostly fine, it is the best marauder, it could use a tracking bonus, because my results when I move around in my navy Apoc(also mwd fitted) are a lot better, regarding hitting stuff while being on the move
im not sure i could agree with any of these..
* yes, gallente likes being master of puppets but megathron hull relies on gunpower. space potato is already chosen for this role.. * vargur seems being underling/weakling of marauder class. and once again, someone mentioned under this topic, minmatar style ships, so everyone knows matari style works with falloff. tbh, i would like to see "optimal and falloff" instead, cos matari style means versatility.. * imagine golem can do what with bastion+torp+tanking bonus, it smells a solo siege-mania * i hope changes will fix paladin's hull, at least better cap etc than navpoc. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1369
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 14:37:00 -
[6614] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Incursionbear's whinings over webs that have **** all to do with the rest of the hull were eventually ignored, and they should have been. Except that a lot of pvp people also complained about it. Anybody with a clue about pvp should realize that the only real application where the hulls would be worth the price tag is jumping into a low sec gate camp or station games, where the shield marauders are miles better by her far higher tanking numbers, by ASBs, being far less affected by neuting and pushing out more dps. The armor marauders without the web bonus have no place in the meta game here. This is why pvp players complained. Beside the reason why Inc players use them is because most that organize and put together fleet concepts know ships fairly well and how to utilize her strengths, and they all will drop marauders with the changes, because they become garbage outside of mjd and bastion use(both completely useless in RR environments). They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them. Ravasta Helugo wrote:The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one. Guess what people complained about the speed, agility, drones and EHP? Exactly the people that actually fly marauders instead of the guys that post that they need zero speed because of mjd and a single set of light drones is enough because they can't figure out how to utilize the drone bay halve way decent. That brings me back to my question, that I raised a couple of times so far, for the simply reason that I still have zero use for marauders with the changes: The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
It's over. We lost.
Prices on the Paladin and Kronos are already dropping from where they were 7-10 days ago as those that used these hulls properly have started selling them.
CCP has zero interest in PvE but to nerf high sec incomes as much as possible, and and as for making these pure PvE boats into PvP boats, two of the dev's involved are PvP fanatics, and believe any hull can be converted to that role, and SHOULD be converted to that role.
We have to find another hull / doctrine, which will be inferior to the ones we use now. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8339
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 14:37:00 -
[6615] - Quote
Gal lack a long rang BS. The new kronos fills the slot nicely along with a few other jobs including fleet work. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:04:00 -
[6616] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:The Djego wrote: -> the Kronos needs a bigger drone bay and 5 sentry's since like 2007 and a sentry optimal/tracking bonus would finally make the hull more a fleshed out med range platform compared to the vindicator or navy mega -> the Vargur isn't a bad ship, it is just worse in nearly every aspect compared to the mach, a optimal bonus would make it better with artillery at medium range, combined with a mwd cap use bonus(that every marauder should have) it would be more appealing if you do a lot of repositioning on the grid to for proper artillery use -> the Golem really needs more speed(instead of less, what is hilarious bad) and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus(yes torps only) to become useful as the the dedicated torpedo platform that it used to be, again higher mobility and mwd cap use bonus makes it fairly different compared to the CNR and other missile platforms and a outstanding ship in her niche - the Paladin is mostly fine, it is the best marauder, it could use a tracking bonus, because my results when I move around in my navy Apoc(also mwd fitted) are a lot better, regarding hitting stuff while being on the move
im not sure i could agree with any of these.. * yes, gallente likes being master of puppets but megathron hull relies on gunpower. space potato is already chosen for this role.. * vargur seems being underling/weakling of marauder class. and once again, someone mentioned under this topic, minmatar style ships, so everyone knows matari style works with falloff. tbh, i would like to see " optimal and falloff" instead, cos matari style means versatility.. * imagine golem can do what with bastion+torp+tanking bonus, it smells a solo siege-mania * i hope changes will fix paladin's hull, at least better cap etc than navpoc.
The DPS of the Kronos with rails is rather laughable without added sentry dps compared to the other marauders, if you look at blasters the Vindicator vastly outperform it, the only thing that the Kronos does better(outside RR BS role) is being a fairly mobile sentry/rail platform, that can cover point blank with the 90% web and project dps up to full lock range by the ability to fit multiple drone links without losing turret dps(unlike hype, domi or navy domi). A sentry range and tracking bonus plus 125/275 would go a long way to actually make in very interesting in this role, providing high sentry and turret range, long lock range, tracking bonus for both weapon systems and a fairly good mobility. In my opinion it is the closes to a ideal gallente hybrid gunship concept outside blaster use, combining speed, sentry's and rails to archive a good dps and projection at medium range, at expense of overall tank.
Vargur is actually ok if you look at it as marauder and compare it to the others, it does ok dps and got useful application window, at least combined with the current speed. However it does nothing different compared to the mach, that is nearly unaffected by the TE nerf simply by switching to armor tank and got the better speed, dps and drone bay. Overall a mwd cap use bonus and more optimal would give it a clear edge with artillery at medium ranges(it is already better than the mach here with the tracking bonus, since tracking is the major problem with artillery). I would also like to see 100/125 drone bay on it, simply to improve artillery dps with sentry use at medium range.
Bastion and torps don't work well together, a torp ship needs speed to get in range quick and apply dps, the stop and go game play with bastion is rather contra productive for it. It does ok with CMs but then again it was actually designed as a torpedo platform and every other hull with the exception of the CNR(in specific fittings) works better with CMs than with torps this days.
There is nothing that really needs fixing on the Paladin, it is by far the best marauder already, on the same level with the faction equivalent(Nightmare). It is a lot easier to manage cap wise than the abaddon and or NM, before the cap nerf it got 12k+ cap and could effortlessly run mwd, tachs and tank what is hilarious for a amarr ship(a navy apoc needs 2 discharge rigs and 2 cap mods to do similar stuff). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:44:00 -
[6617] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:The Djego wrote: -> the Kronos needs a bigger drone bay and 5 sentry's since like 2007 and a sentry optimal/tracking bonus would finally make the hull more a fleshed out med range platform compared to the vindicator or navy mega -> the Vargur isn't a bad ship, it is just worse in nearly every aspect compared to the mach, a optimal bonus would make it better with artillery at medium range, combined with a mwd cap use bonus(that every marauder should have) it would be more appealing if you do a lot of repositioning on the grid to for proper artillery use -> the Golem really needs more speed(instead of less, what is hilarious bad) and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus(yes torps only) to become useful as the the dedicated torpedo platform that it used to be, again higher mobility and mwd cap use bonus makes it fairly different compared to the CNR and other missile platforms and a outstanding ship in her niche - the Paladin is mostly fine, it is the best marauder, it could use a tracking bonus, because my results when I move around in my navy Apoc(also mwd fitted) are a lot better, regarding hitting stuff while being on the move
im not sure i could agree with any of these.. * yes, gallente likes being master of puppets but megathron hull relies on gunpower. space potato is already chosen for this role.. * vargur seems being underling/weakling of marauder class. and once again, someone mentioned under this topic, minmatar style ships, so everyone knows matari style works with falloff. tbh, i would like to see " optimal and falloff" instead, cos matari style means versatility.. * imagine golem can do what with bastion+torp+tanking bonus, it smells a solo siege-mania * i hope changes will fix paladin's hull, at least better cap etc than navpoc. The DPS of the Kronos with rails is rather laughable without added sentry dps compared to the other marauders, if you look at blasters the Vindicator vastly outperform it, the only thing that the Kronos does better(outside RR BS role) is being a fairly mobile sentry/rail platform, that can cover point blank with the 90% web and project dps up to full lock range by the ability to fit multiple drone links without losing turret dps(unlike hype, domi or navy domi). A sentry range and tracking bonus plus 125/275 would go a long way to actually make in very interesting in this role, providing high sentry and turret range, long lock range, tracking bonus for both weapon systems and a fairly good mobility. In my opinion it is the closes to a ideal gallente hybrid gunship concept outside blaster use, combining speed, sentry's and rails to archive a good dps and projection at medium range, at expense of overall tank. Vargur is actually ok if you look at it as marauder and compare it to the others, it does ok dps and got useful application window, at least combined with the current speed. However it does nothing different compared to the mach, that is nearly unaffected by the TE nerf simply by switching to armor tank and got the better speed, dps and drone bay. Overall a mwd cap use bonus and more optimal would give it a clear edge with artillery at medium ranges(it is already better than the mach here with the tracking bonus, since tracking is the major problem with artillery). I would also like to see 100/125 drone bay on it, simply to improve artillery dps with sentry use at medium range. Bastion and torps don't work well together, a torp ship needs speed to get in range quick and apply dps, the stop and go game play with bastion is rather contra productive for it. It does ok with CMs but then again it was actually designed as a torpedo platform and every other hull with the exception of the CNR(in specific fittings) works better with CMs than with torps this days. There is nothing that really needs fixing on the Paladin, it is by far the best marauder already, on the same level with the faction equivalent(Nightmare). It is a lot easier to manage cap wise than the abaddon and or NM, before the cap nerf it got 12k+ cap and could effortlessly run mwd, tachs and tank what is hilarious for a amarr ship(a navy apoc needs 2 discharge rigs and 2 cap mods to do similar stuff).
When it comes to the Kronos, I still feel it would make a good drone boat, expecially considering bastion.
Remove turret slots Remove 100% role bonus New role bonus - Can equip 4 drone control units Per level bonuses go to drone tracking and HP Possible drone control range bonus Possible drone bay per lvl bonus
This means it would launch 9 sentry/heavy drones. This is comperable DPS to other Marauders. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:49:00 -
[6618] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: When it comes to the Kronos, I still feel it would make a good drone boat, expecially considering bastion.
Remove turret slots Remove 100% role bonus New role bonus - Can equip 4 drone control units Per level bonuses go to drone tracking and HP Possible drone control range bonus Possible drone bay per lvl bonus
This means it would launch 9 sentry/heavy drones. This is comperable DPS to other Marauders.
Really?
My Rattler can launch 5 sentries and has something like 900dps.
My golem has (Drones included) 1040 dps
Why do you think that 1600 for your kronos is ok?
EDIT: bleh, too tired to post properly -.- Should've noticed you didn't write anything about a drone damage bonus. though that would be better than the drone control units imo. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:52:00 -
[6619] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: When it comes to the Kronos, I still feel it would make a good drone boat, expecially considering bastion.
Remove turret slots Remove 100% role bonus New role bonus - Can equip 4 drone control units Per level bonuses go to drone tracking and HP Possible drone control range bonus Possible drone bay per lvl bonus
This means it would launch 9 sentry/heavy drones. This is comperable DPS to other Marauders.
Really? My Rattler can launch 5 sentries and has something like 900dps. My golem has (Drones included) 1040 dps Why do you think that 1600 for your kronos is ok?
The ship would not include a damage bonus. 9 sentry drones with no ship bonus to damage would be more like 1k-1100 dps |

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 16:04:00 -
[6620] - Quote
i still strongly beleive that nobody will buy marauders for 1bil if they dont have t2 res.
please, either make them cheaper close to 600mil like black ops to produce. or give them t2 res.
400 extra mil for same functionality same dps same tank as a blackops. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8342
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 16:11:00 -
[6621] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:i still strongly beleive that nobody will buy marauders for 1bil if they dont have t2 res.
please, either make them cheaper close to 600mil like black ops to produce. or give them t2 res.
400 extra mil for same functionality same dps same tank as a blackops.
I plan to buy at least 5. |

Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
425
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 16:58:00 -
[6622] - Quote
Whoa, whoa, how did I miss the third update in here?!
You've increased their EHP, fixed their base speed at a reasonable though still not rocket-fast speed, and... Made them lighter than they currently are?
The only thing missing is 100MN MWDs not feeling like they immediately use all of your cap, and I'm completely okay with this third iteration. |

Jake Sake
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 17:07:00 -
[6623] - Quote
The Djego wrote:
They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them.
1. Nope, after the changes they look better. 2. Please refrain from speaking for others, and don't imply someone is dumber then you are. 3. MJD got used once it was introduced. And with a buff it might get used by even more people. 4. If you lack mental capacity to find a use for something it does not mean everyone lack it. 5. Where's the dps nerf? 5 km/s is a nerf, really? And web nerf? 3 of 4 ships had no web bonus to begin with and well Kronos gets turned into sniper with rails - I'm sorry for your loss, my condolences. Life goes on - adapt or die.
Now then, I really hope that people will someday learn to: 1. Stop speaking on behalf of others (majority even). 2. Stop trying to change the world to fit their own preferences. 3. Stop implying that their way of playing/living/eating/shitting is the most correct and most efficient.
P.S. Everything the new Marauders get / loss fit with my playing style perfectly. I will buy and use 2 new Marauders when Rubicon will arrive to TQ.
I would welcome: 1. Increase in tractor beam distance and speed. Or remove it completely and replace with something other. 2. 3rd rig slot. 3. Increase in dps. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 17:38:00 -
[6624] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:The Djego wrote:
They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them.
1. Nope, after the changes they look better. 2. Please refrain from speaking for others, and don't imply someone is dumber then you are. 3. MJD got used once it was introduced. And with a buff it might get used by even more people. 4. If you lack mental capacity to find a use for something it does not mean everyone lack it. 5. Where's the dps nerf? 5 km/s is a nerf, really? And web nerf? 3 of 4 ships had no web bonus to begin with and well Kronos gets turned into sniper with rails - I'm sorry for your loss, my condolences. Life goes on - adapt or die. Now then, I really hope that people will someday learn to: 1. Stop speaking on behalf of others (majority even). 2. Stop trying to change the world to fit their own preferences. 3. Stop implying that their way of playing/living/eating/shitting is the most correct and most efficient. P.S. Everything the new Marauders get / loss fit with my playing style perfectly. I will buy and use 2 new Marauders when Rubicon will arrive to TQ. I would welcome: 1. Increase in tractor beam distance and speed. Or remove it completely and replace with something other. 2. 3rd rig slot. 3. Increase in dps.
After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:
* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff) * dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth * you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps * loss of looting exclusiveness
Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 17:53:00 -
[6625] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Whoa, whoa, how did I miss the third update in here?!
You've increased their EHP, fixed their base speed at a reasonable though still not rocket-fast speed, and... Made them lighter than they currently are?
The only thing missing is 100MN MWDs not feeling like they immediately use all of your cap, and I'm completely okay with this third iteration.
RF AB should work for ya, around 40mil or so
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
865
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 17:57:00 -
[6626] - Quote
Since the bastion bonuses don't include any tracking increases, it was clearly designed with sniping - and only sniping - in mind. However, it also makes any Marauder that's fitted with a useful tank into an unkillable monster.
I'm not sure why something that sits 150km out needs to be an unkillable monster. Isn't "obscene tank" better-suited to close-range work than to super-sniping?
While I like the way Iteration 3 is looking compared to Iterations 1 and especially 2, I still feel like Marauders are a mixed bag of "we aren't quite sure what we want them to do". |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:10:00 -
[6627] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:
* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff) * dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth * you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps * loss of looting exclusiveness
Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.
1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff. Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile. MJD out, bastion, MJD in. No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter.
2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced. Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant). The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that.
3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps... The reason is actually pretty simple... The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete. Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage.
4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis). Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage. However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis. Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer.. Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases.
My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD) |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:18:00 -
[6628] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Since the bastion bonuses don't include any tracking increases, it was clearly designed with sniping - and only sniping - in mind. However, it also makes any Marauder that's fitted with a useful tank into an unkillable monster.
I'm not sure why something that sits 150km out needs to be an unkillable monster. Isn't "obscene tank" better-suited to close-range work than to super-sniping?
While I like the way Iteration 3 is looking compared to Iterations 1 and especially 2, I still feel like Marauders are a mixed bag of "we aren't quite sure what we want them to do".
It is odd... I'll give you that.
I think the problem here is that Bastion is best suited with the Golem.
As bastion sits now, the Golem outperforms the current version by leaps and bounds. I would even argue to say that it helps a torp Golem more so, due to increased range, and better tanking as it normally is taking high damage by the time it can actually hit a target.
I will go to say that perhaps bastion is better suited to focus on the ships themselves, as opposed to a "one size fits all" module.
The problem though with trying to balance the module for each ship is, what's the best way to do so without the ships being OP?
Like I said, it's perfect for the Golem, cause it doesn't have to worry so much about tracking/fall-off/optimal. Big tank and missiles have always gone hand in hand.
What could we suggest to better balance the other 3 ships while bastioned?
|

Shamus en Divalone
Dip Dip Potatoe Chip
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:30:00 -
[6629] - Quote
So how much can we expect the Golem to increase in price in the coming weeks? 
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:38:00 -
[6630] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:So how much can we expect the Golem to increase in price in the coming weeks? 
i don't know if it will go up or down.. Wish I did, cause then I'd know whether to buy it now, or later... |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
381
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:45:00 -
[6631] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:So how much can we expect the Golem to increase in price in the coming weeks?  It's dropped $100m so far, but the price does fluctuate. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:56:00 -
[6632] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Shamus en Divalone wrote:So how much can we expect the Golem to increase in price in the coming weeks?  It's dropped $100m so far, but the price does fluctuate. Joe Risalo wrote:i don't know if it will go up or down.. Wish I did, cause then I'd know whether to buy it now, or later... Buy a Raven with three T1 hydraulic rigs, then wait for the new RHMLs to come out. You'll end up with a "lite" version of the Raven Navy Issue for 1/4 the cost of an actual RNI, and 1/6 the cost of a Golem.
I'm a tank and spank missioner....
I want bastion Golem.... Played with it on test, fits me perfectly |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
381
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:59:00 -
[6633] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I'm a tank and spank missioner.... I want bastion Golem.... Played with it on test, fits me perfectly I prefer spank over tank. I see your Bastion Golem and raise you Raven Navy Issue.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:05:00 -
[6634] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I'm a tank and spank missioner.... I want bastion Golem.... Played with it on test, fits me perfectly I prefer spank over tank. I see your Bastion Golem and raise you Raven Navy Issue. 
I'll see your spank RNI, and raise you full room aggro without having to warp out cause things are getting too hot.. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
381
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:10:00 -
[6635] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I'll see your spank RNI, and raise you full room aggro without having to warp out cause things are getting too hot..  New Golem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRecXl3kj2A Raven Navy Issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9q125TSI I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:21:00 -
[6636] - Quote
lol...
for some reason, I now find myself wanting a pet platypus.. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:25:00 -
[6637] - Quote
Hey, are they back up on test yet?
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
384
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:51:00 -
[6638] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:lol... for some reason, I now find myself wanting a pet platypus.. Yeah, if it wasn't for the venomous spur they'd be great family pets.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
866
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:54:00 -
[6639] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Hey, are they back up on test yet?
Rubicon is back on SiSi. Make sure to switch your launcher to DX9 if you haven't already. Also, expect a few .. database issues .. with some of the ships. Or at least we think they're database issues. CCP hasn't commented yet.
The Golem, however, is currently sporting an amazing new grey-and-gold paintjob that makes it look eerily similar to a Raven State Issue. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:03:00 -
[6640] - Quote
Hmm, I got the pattern here.
As far as I read;
Joe Risalo is repeating that Golem goes pretty-well with Bastion. Paladin users are chaotic, some of them loved the range, others call for web bonus. Kronos users are also chaotic with more of them call for web bonus while less of them loved the range (seems to me at least). Vargur users, have no interest in this module, the ones WHO interested in this, wasn't playing it properly or simply bored of their current state. Because, It was performing better than this with AB+old speed.
So;
Bastion module is for Golem, Beamer module for Paladin, increases falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + greatly increased armor amount + increased armor repair amount Boomer module for Kronos, increasing falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + increasing armor resists + increased armor repair rate Bumper module for Vargur, increasing falloff-optimal + increased speed + shield resistances + increased shield boost bonus
Something for everyone eh? (=^.^=) |
|

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1193
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:06:00 -
[6641] - Quote
Dinsdale doesn't speak for all Kronos pilots, I'm more than happy with my 1600 DPS TE/TC range boosted blaster boat.
I don't need webs for hitting frigates, I've tracking to rival their transversal until 7km, then the light drones mop up the remainder, and there's always MJD to just give myself range to pick them off again.
Also contrary to popular (QQ based) belief, the NPC AI does not mass slaughter drones, it kills drones of people who use them as a fire and forget system, ignoring them until everything has died. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
384
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:06:00 -
[6642] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:The Golem, however, is currently sporting an amazing new grey-and-gold paintjob that makes it look eerily similar to a Raven State Issue. It's a vast improvement, to be sure. Post a screenshot! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:08:00 -
[6643] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:The Djego wrote:
They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them.
1. Nope, after the changes they look better. 2. Please refrain from speaking for others, and don't imply someone is dumber then you are. 3. MJD got used once it was introduced. And with a buff it might get used by even more people. 4. If you lack mental capacity to find a use for something it does not mean everyone lack it. 5. Where's the dps nerf? 5 km/s is a nerf, really? And web nerf? 3 of 4 ships had no web bonus to begin with and well Kronos gets turned into sniper with rails - I'm sorry for your loss, my condolences. Life goes on - adapt or die. P.S. Everything the new Marauders get / loss fit with my playing style perfectly. I will buy and use 2 new Marauders when Rubicon will arrive to TQ.
1. Would you like to explain me how they are better for people that currently have marauder 5, fly them a lot and got no use for bastion and mjd?
2. I think you have a problem to understand what "everybody I know that uses marauders" does mean, it means people I know that actually use marauders. Guess what people already fly marauders and while they got her flaws(that don't really get addressed in this patch) they are happier with them, the same way I am happier with them currently.
3. Did you compare efficiency between mjd fittings and mwd fittings? Because I did and this is the reason why I use a mwd instead of a mjd.
4. I guess it is beyond my metal capacity to understand people that mjd 100km away, gimp her own dps this way and call it a massive improvement. Lets say I have reasons to fit a mwd and save myself some time.
5. I would suggest you compare the current marauders with the changes in a fitting, so you can see the nonsense you are talking yourself by your own. As a tip, drone band wide was changed and not everybody just uses light drones, mwd speed(you know the actually important number) might change by more than 5m/s(it is 10m/s Paladin, 50m/s Golem, 70m/s Kronos and a ******* 130m/s on the Vargur that they are still slower, while they where ******* 300m/s slower in the first iteration, and people where even ok with that because a mjd solves everything apparently). Further more 2 of 4 have the web bonus and you don't understand the changes to the Kronos at all, because the falloff bonus is hardly useful for rails and it gets worse as a rail platform by the lack of sentry dps. It is considerable worse as rail ship after the changes(less dps, less speed, no useful web to cover point blank) and far worse than the vindicator with blasters(because again, less dps, far less speed, no useful web to hold stuff down).
If you play style is all about flying a billion isk BS that is considerable worse than before, then yes the changes might suit your play style perfectly. For me on the other hand, they look a lot worse after the changes, when I compare them to the ships I currently fly. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
384
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:17:00 -
[6644] - Quote
The Djego wrote:If you play style is all about flying a billion isk BS that is considerable worse than before, then yes the changes might suit your play style perfectly. For me on the other hand, they look a lot worse after the changes, when I compare them to the ships I currently fly. They look pretty though...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1193
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:17:00 -
[6645] - Quote
What amazes me is the amount of Kronos pilots that fail to realise they've gained DPS through being able to use short range ammo more frequently due to the increased optimal/falloff distances, or even stop using rails and switch to blasters.
The DPS loss of one sentry drone does not come close to those gains, as for the loss of the web, you've got the midslot for a scripted TC, and the lows, now you don't need as many tanking mods, for at least one TE. You have the tracking and the drone bay to handle small ships comfortably, while doing much more DPS to anything Cruiser and up. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
609
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:31:00 -
[6646] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Hmm, I got the pattern here.
As far as I read;
Joe Risalo is repeating that Golem goes pretty-well with Bastion. Paladin users are chaotic, some of them loved the range, others call for web bonus. Kronos users are also chaotic with more of them call for web bonus while less of them loved the range (seems to me at least). Vargur users, have no interest in this module, the ones WHO interested in this, wasn't playing it properly or simply bored of their current state. Because, It was performing better than this with AB+old speed.
So;
Bastion module is for Golem, Beamer module for Paladin, increases falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + greatly increased armor amount + increased armor repair amount Boomer module for Kronos, increasing falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + increasing armor resists + increased armor repair rate Bumper module for Vargur, increasing falloff-optimal + increased speed + shield resistances + increased shield boost bonus
Something for everyone eh? (=^.^=)
This comment will also reply to the recent post of djego.
Since missiles aren't effected by tracking/falloff is the main reason why golem performs well with bastion and MJD.
The rest of them don't have this advantage. The golem performs just as well at long range, as it does at close range.
While you're on the right track, I think there's a bit of imbalance in your proposal for the other 3. Here's my thought. Golem - stays as is with bastion MJD.
Paladin - stationary with MJD. Bastion gives tank bonus and tracking bonus. Range isn't a problem for paladin.
Kronos - retains same mobility as without bastion, bastion gives web bonus, drone EHP and tracking bonus, retains old drone b/w and gains some hold on hull, gets bonus to armor EHP and resists. Sig is increased as penalty.
Vargur - bastion gives cap usage bonus to MWD. Increases shield EHP and resists. Slight damage buff. Sig radius is increased.
This is a better suggestion for a balance that works with the way the ships are generally used, fits the races, and each has a drawback. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:37:00 -
[6647] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:What amazes me is the amount of Kronos pilots that fail to realise they've gained DPS through being able to use short range ammo more frequently due to the increased optimal/falloff distances, or even stop using rails and switch to blasters.
The DPS loss of one sentry drone does not come close to those gains, as for the loss of the web, you've got the midslot for a scripted TC, and the lows, now you don't need as many tanking mods, for at least one TE. You have the tracking and the drone bay to handle small ships comfortably, while doing much more DPS to anything Cruiser and up.
Maybe this is because I use rails on my Kronos instead of blasters and think the new Kronos is considerable slower than what I fly on TQ atm(and I mission with it against angels mostly)? Even with the buffs I don't like the blaster range(it is considerable worse than on my vargur and that ships is a whooping 230m/s faster than the new Kronos). 90% of the time I had to use Null and the rail Kronos does nearly the same dps with a much better projection range.
But have a look how I fly the current Kronos:
[Kronos, New Setup 1] Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Gist A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L Drone Link Augmentor I Small Tractor Beam I Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Bouncer II x3 Hobgoblin II x5 Salvage Drone I x5
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1193
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:48:00 -
[6648] - Quote
The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.
Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.
Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.
With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:01:00 -
[6649] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The Djego wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Incursionbear's whinings over webs that have **** all to do with the rest of the hull were eventually ignored, and they should have been. Except that a lot of pvp people also complained about it. Anybody with a clue about pvp should realize that the only real application where the hulls would be worth the price tag is jumping into a low sec gate camp or station games, where the shield marauders are miles better by her far higher tanking numbers, by ASBs, being far less affected by neuting and pushing out more dps. The armor marauders without the web bonus have no place in the meta game here. This is why pvp players complained. Beside the reason why Inc players use them is because most that organize and put together fleet concepts know ships fairly well and how to utilize her strengths, and they all will drop marauders with the changes, because they become garbage outside of mjd and bastion use(both completely useless in RR environments). They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them. Ravasta Helugo wrote:The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one. Guess what people complained about the speed, agility, drones and EHP? Exactly the people that actually fly marauders instead of the guys that post that they need zero speed because of mjd and a single set of light drones is enough because they can't figure out how to utilize the drone bay halve way decent. That brings me back to my question, that I raised a couple of times so far, for the simply reason that I still have zero use for marauders with the changes: The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
It's over. We lost. Prices on the Paladin and Kronos are already dropping from where they were 7-10 days ago as those that used these hulls properly have started selling them. CCP has zero interest in PvE but to nerf high sec incomes as much as possible, and and as for making these pure PvE boats into PvP boats, two of the dev's involved are PvP fanatics, and believe any hull can be converted to that role, and SHOULD be converted to that role. We have to find another hull / doctrine, which will be inferior to the ones we use now.
that is sad but true.. the question is till when? they will keep doing that to any ship that is chosen for pve role, maybe its time to think and start searching a new home..
anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:03:00 -
[6650] - Quote
I go with 4 damage mods on all my marauders and given that the Kronos is quite a bit behind for dps, I would not like to drop it(I did use 4 mfs and 1 TEs for blasters on sissi).
The new Kronos is 70m/s slower(it was 230m/s slower before), I don't want to wast a slot for the mjd, mwd is all I need and I hate sitting around while stuff slow boats out of blaster range. Actually I do complain about it because I want to actively fly my ship without bastion and without mjd, I like and use the web a lot and because it is simply faster from my practical experience(if you consider multi boxing a awful lot faster, if you have 2 hulls doing 1100m/s+ and 100km+ weapon range on both). Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
|

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:04:00 -
[6651] - Quote
New Paladin is on sisi, although somehow, CCP forgot to seed the bastion modules.. lol
Also, guns are floating off the hull.
As for the change, I like it, but really think the paladin needs MORE GOLD, now its mostly grey and red. |

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:05:00 -
[6652] - Quote
Dear CCP,
I am fine. How are you? Is work going well? How was your summer? I know we don't talk as much as we should, but I would like to ask you for a favor. Could you please make the Golem's Role Bonus read as follows:
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large missile launchers, 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% to MJD whatevers.
It would mean alot to me, as I love heavy missile with all my heart(even post nerf). Also, my mom asked me to say "hello" and "thanks for last night." Whatever that means.
Thank you,
Topher
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
384
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:09:00 -
[6653] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:New Paladin is on sisi, although somehow, CCP forgot to seed the bastion modules.. lol Also, guns are floating off the hull. As for the change, I like it, but really think the paladin needs MORE GOLD, now its mostly grey and red. What does it look like now? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:25:00 -
[6654] - Quote
Paladin looks like this currently on sissi, probably a work in progress thing for bastion mode:
The broken paint job: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.21.46.png
The floating guns: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.20.26.png Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
384
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:29:00 -
[6655] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Paladin looks like this currently on sissi, probably a work in progress thing for bastion mode: Cool, thanks! Can someone post the new Golem? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

ivan veldspar
Luxor Research
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:42:00 -
[6656] - Quote
just a question to train marauders it takes a lot longer to train than any other battleship I trained it and was really dis appointed I keep seeing notes that you don't want them to out damage pirate ships with all that training I want the best battleship I came to the end on the skill que after training spent a billion isk and it was crap and now your going to nerf it where it cant fly without the bastion module way to go |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:54:00 -
[6657] - Quote
why do they keep changing the golem now it looks like too dark to see anything in space. They need to give more blinky lights to the ship ffs |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:59:00 -
[6658] - Quote
I like the choice of grey over the beige on the Golem, but can we please put the black accents in as well? It looks too washed out now. Good grief, at this rate CCP is going to kill this ship on looks alone! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
360
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 00:21:00 -
[6659] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.
Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.
Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.
With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull. I'd rather have a 4th stacking penalized damage mod then 4th stacking penalized tracking mod. with 2 tcs and bastion that TE is the 4th mod.
and 30-70km is the kill range I'm mostly worried about, which is why I love using tachyons on my paladin and rails on my kronos. and is a set of ranges where I don't see a mjd having much help for blasters.
and I love actively flying, which is why the mach is one of my favorite ships. A slow ass blaster kronos well.... I'm not excited for that. (okay I think it will be pretty awesome at damsel, and maybe a few others, although I'm thinking a conflag paladin will be better at most of that) You can trust me, I have a monocole |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1193
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 00:36:00 -
[6660] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.
Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.
Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.
With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull. I'd rather have a 4th stacking penalized damage mod then 4th stacking penalized tracking mod. with 2 tcs and bastion that TE is the 4th mod. and 30-70km is the kill range I'm mostly worried about, which is why I love using tachyons on my paladin and rails on my kronos. and is a set of ranges where I don't see a mjd having much help for blasters. and I love actively flying, which is why the mach is one of my favorite ships. A slow ass blaster kronos well.... I'm not excited for that. (okay I think it will be pretty awesome at damsel, and maybe a few others, although I'm thinking a conflag paladin will be better at most of that)
Ah, this is where fits differ, I only have one TC and one TE, MWD/MJD and cap booster in the mids, triple magstab/LAR/DC/EANM for the lows.
Because the SiSi mirror last time Rubicon was up was old as hell, I wasn't able to utilise T2 guns/ammo and had to stick to faction guns/fed nav AM. The range you get with null gives you the range in the 30-50km range, the MJD lets you close off those 70km+ ships to 30 and under (especially when you start to jump to the side of them, sacrificing range for width and coming in at a much closer angle, and allowing for void)
Rails certainly are the easier option, but the lower damage, poor tracking and slower rate of fire gives them a lower skill cap and ultimately less peak efficiency than a well flown Blaster Kronos.
A lot of missions have rats that like to come in close and hump your face off, rails simply don't perform there in comparison. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
609
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 01:02:00 -
[6661] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.
Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.
Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.
With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull. I'd rather have a 4th stacking penalized damage mod then 4th stacking penalized tracking mod. with 2 tcs and bastion that TE is the 4th mod. and 30-70km is the kill range I'm mostly worried about, which is why I love using tachyons on my paladin and rails on my kronos. and is a set of ranges where I don't see a mjd having much help for blasters. and I love actively flying, which is why the mach is one of my favorite ships. A slow ass blaster kronos well.... I'm not excited for that. (okay I think it will be pretty awesome at damsel, and maybe a few others, although I'm thinking a conflag paladin will be better at most of that) Ah, this is where fits differ, I only have one TC and one TE, MWD/MJD and cap booster in the mids, triple magstab/LAR/DC/EANM for the lows. Because the SiSi mirror last time Rubicon was up was old as hell, I wasn't able to utilise T2 guns/ammo and had to stick to faction guns/fed nav AM. The range you get with null gives you the range in the 30-50km range, the MJD lets you close off those 70km+ ships to 30 and under (especially when you start to jump to the side of them, sacrificing range for width and coming in at a much closer angle, and allowing for void) Rails certainly are the easier option, but the lower damage, poor tracking and slower rate of fire gives them a lower skill cap and ultimately less peak efficiency than a well flown Blaster Kronos. A lot of missions have rats that like to come in close and hump your face off, rails simply don't perform there in comparison.
The difference here though, is that with Rails you can engage targets up to max target range and kill many of them before they begin to orbit, thus f'ing you on tracking.
However, with the new MJD bonus, you can simply MJD away, and you'll have 100km to kill npcs as they travel to you with no traversal.
Again, Golem performs best as orbitting targets don't effect damage output all that much. However, with the massive tanks of Marauders and MJD. You can tank the targets that spawn too close to track for guns, while you blast distant targets. Once they're all mopped up, you can then MJD and clear the targets that were originally on top of you.
There's two ways to go about that. Land, MJD out, kill, MJD to warp gate, kill, activate gate. or Land, kill, MJD out, kill, MJD in, activate gate.
With the Bastion, you can tank a full room. With MJD bonus, tracking is only an issue till you MJD away. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1193
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 01:46:00 -
[6662] - Quote
The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.
It's certainly a complete difference as to how I'm flying on TQ, where I'm sitting back with rails + sentries and pinging off targets 60km away, but the kill speed is certainly faster, even in sites where I'm not bogged down by e-war.
When you get something like Serpentis Blockade though, it's just hilarious. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 02:21:00 -
[6663] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry. Pretty sure that's the 'n00b' button you're referring to. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 04:18:00 -
[6664] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:
* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff) * dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth * you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps * loss of looting exclusiveness
Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.
1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff. Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile. MJD out, bastion, MJD in. No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter. 2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced. Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant). The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that. 3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps... The reason is actually pretty simple... The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete. Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage. 4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis). Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage. However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis. Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer.. Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases. My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD)
1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition.
2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth.
3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful.
4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s
Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
609
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 05:10:00 -
[6665] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:
* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff) * dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth * you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps * loss of looting exclusiveness
Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.
1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff. Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile. MJD out, bastion, MJD in. No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter. 2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced. Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant). The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that. 3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps... The reason is actually pretty simple... The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete. Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage. 4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis). Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage. However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis. Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer.. Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases. My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD) 1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition. 2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth. 3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful. 4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill
Uhh, I might just be tired, but it doesn't appear that you countered any of my arguments very well, if at all..... I read it two or three times... I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see a good counter argument.... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 05:11:00 -
[6666] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:
* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff) * dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth * you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps * loss of looting exclusiveness
Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.
1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff. Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile. MJD out, bastion, MJD in. No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter. 2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced. Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant). The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that. 3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps... The reason is actually pretty simple... The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete. Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage. 4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis). Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage. However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis. Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer.. Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases. My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD) 1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition. 2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth. 3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful. 4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill
golem is a torpedo boat cant compare to a missile boat like ravens. Bastion works well for torpedo and does nothing for cruise missiles. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 05:42:00 -
[6667] - Quote
bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
393
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 06:07:00 -
[6668] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion How exactly does it lower defender missile damage? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 06:38:00 -
[6669] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Yeah, if it wasn't for the venomous spur they'd be great family pets.  Only the males have that, the females are much nicer. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 06:51:00 -
[6670] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion
it doesnt help with defenders , it might if you put 2 velocity riggs on it but then the bastion get stacked penalty to almost nothing at that point , so i think most people would not gonna try that route. The only think it helps cruise is less volley counting.
curise missile is just boring . no need to move, no need to change ammo type , just shoot and warp to next gate. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 06:54:00 -
[6671] - Quote
Mer88 wrote: golem is a torpedo boat cant compare to a missile boat like ravens. Bastion works well for torpedo and does nothing for cruise missiles.
You do realize, that the Golem is allowed to use Crusie missiles too, right? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
563
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 06:55:00 -
[6672] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion it doesnt help with defenders , it might if you put 2 velocity riggs on it but then the bastion get stacked penalty to almost nothing at that point , so i think most people would not gonna try that route. The only think it helps cruise is less volley counting. curise missile is just boring . no need to move, no need to change ammo type , just shoot and warp to next gate.
Do NPC's still use defender missiles? I haven't seen that happen in quite some time...  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
395
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 07:36:00 -
[6673] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Do NPC's still use defender missiles? I haven't seen that happen in quite some time...  All the time. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 08:53:00 -
[6674] - Quote
Great "new" model of Paladin... the bottom side with bastion ding-dongs looks... less "realistic" and flat than on original Apoc. Also what are they doing to colors? Hope they invert golden with red... then the new absolution with harbi hull would not look like an armoured tampon... |

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 09:10:00 -
[6675] - Quote
Right now i can only speak again for my Vargur and torp-golem, because i am not able to fly Kronos anymore on SISI and my Cruise golem is alright. I re-read CCP Ytterbiums text and i am still astonished about some things.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:... 1. Why buffing those hulls? As mentioned here and based on your feedback, we realized the hulls have been overnerfed in iteration 1 next to the benefits given by Bastion.
... 2. Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts? Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. Max velocity nerf is a good way to compensate, especially when considering the fact they have MJDs at their disposal to hop around the battlefield. However, the first speed nerf was a bit harsh, which is why we are mitigating it by increasing their max velocity a bit next to iteration 1.
... 3. Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized? We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
...
1.) Thats the problem nerfed to the benefits given by Bastion. Unnerf the ship and decrease the extreme impact the Bastion still has. A lot of people would like to see T2 resists on a T2 ship. Even the command ship bonus would be alright if bastion comes with DCII bonus.
I do not like to have multiple slots free because of increased tank, but to have to use bastion for not being so fragile.
2.) Those hulls were the very epitome of tanking even without bastion. I know no Marauder pilot pre rubicon who said, OMG my marauder gets into a lot trouble through lvl 4 NPCs.
What i need is to get as fast as possible into the crowed of npcs (ac vargur, torp golem) and then to activate bastion. If i have enemies at 60km I would use MJD to be 40km behind them, but i still would use ab to fly into them. Only then i would activate bastion
And to reduce vargurs speed from 130 to 110 is still harsh.
3.) The argument using a paladin with huge improvement of optimal is no good when you compare it to ac vargur and torp golem.
|

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1193
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 09:34:00 -
[6676] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry. Marauders: n00b and improved...
Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic.
You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 10:31:00 -
[6677] - Quote
Just been watching the bastion transformation on youtube, can't get on test server whilst at work, i know how dare they.
Not really a transformation, more like a couple of bits move or slide. Hopefully its not finished yet.
The golem Needs moar missiles, like this. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
598
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 10:59:00 -
[6678] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry. Marauders: n00b and improved... Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic. You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold.
They can stil be broken rather easily by neuts. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 12:13:00 -
[6679] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry. Marauders: n00b and improved... Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic. You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold. They can stil be broken rather easily by neuts.
which makes me wonder if in bastion then tey should be able to receive cap as well?
|

Gloredon
zzzNightmarezzz Black Flame.
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:22:00 -
[6680] - Quote
Ok, glad to see the Marauders are back on Sisi, time to play.
Paladin: Thoroughly unimpressed by the Bastion mode transformation. And the paint job is just incredibad. The paint job needed no tweaking, it was fine before. Hopefully this is WIP and the paint will bo back to the original, not this horrible interpretation of a Red/Gold crazy camoflage. Did someone forget to tell the art department that Amarr don't do camoflage? If that's what we're getting for the Bastion mode transformation, ok, but it ins't really very impressive. Disappointed would be the word.
It was bad enough when the (IMO) great Apoc hull got replaced without need for this uglier version we have now, but I guess seeing Bastion mode in action now might explain partly the reasoning behind that change. It seemed like one of those, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' situations before. After nearly a year flying that hull, it still looks bad to me. Fix that paint.
Kronos: Ship looks good, but I lost the ability to use bastion again on Sisi, I'll fix that later for further testing. I would probably go with the blaster build, but I've got large T2 rails trained up and I'm going to test both. With blasters, I know the DPS will out-do a Mach's, but the range is less, even in Bastion, but it's probably workable, with some triangulation using MJD.
Vargur, It works fine, I'm hoping once I fix my high energy issues that the bastion mode will be more than some armor covering the sails? No pretty lights for Minmatar like the others? If that's final, it makes me sad.
Golem: I don't fly them, but I do like the new hull (I've always despised the Raven hull, this is an improvement). The flat head doesn't look bad to me, but I can imagine if you're used to flying Ravens, you might wish for the 'normal' Raven head over it, as a matter of you get used to it. I'd say, get used to it. Pictures I've seen of the Bastion mode transform make it the best of all, but again, they aren't as exciting as Fozzie seemed to try to portray in the announcement video. Sorry Fozzie.
Bottom line: I will probably use them. But Not the Paladin without fixing the paint job. Horrible. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:28:00 -
[6681] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Uhh, I might just be tired, but it doesn't appear that you countered any of my arguments very well, if at all..... I read it two or three times... I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see a good counter argument....
Here are some terms you may want to research. They should help clear up why many of your prior arguments were poor:
Argumentum ad antiquitatem Argumentum ad numerum Argumentum ad populum Argumentum ad verecundiam |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:32:00 -
[6682] - Quote
Marauders can Bastion and Cyno at the same time...that's an interesting mix if done properly.
Since you're already self-tackled, mix as well keep there, buffer/over-tank it and allow people to jump in, coupled with the decent damage (of the paladin), perhaps they're not as useless...although, who would cyno with a 1+bill ship, and remain 10 minutes stuck there... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:43:00 -
[6683] - Quote
Some feedback from the transformations:
Golem: looks nice opening those "flaps" or "air brakes". Not much to say there.
Kronos: mixed on this one, its not nearly as epic as one would've thought.
Paladin: I kinda like it? I dislike the hull. Ever since the Apoc got redone, I lost my beautiful thin and slim elegant Paladin...but I can live with this better than the fat-so version.
Vargur: Errr...question, why do all ships "open", while the Vargur "closes"? Most open to expose parts (ironically) while getting tankier, but the Vargur gets plated and armored (on a shield ship). It makes the most sense though, as they become tanking beasts, the other 3 expose parts (and feel like they might do more damage), but the Vargur deploys metal plates on the wingy bits.
The general consensus though is disappointment. The changes are not dramatic enough, not obvious enough. At first glance they look like I forgot to move rather than I'm forced. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:15:00 -
[6684] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Some feedback from the transformations:
The general consensus though is disappointment. The changes are not dramatic enough, not obvious enough. At first glance they look like I forgot to move rather than I'm forced.
Agree'd, having seen them it makes me wonder if my car has entered bastion mode just cause the boot is open :(
|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:43:00 -
[6685] - Quote
So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1194
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:56:00 -
[6686] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry. Marauders: n00b and improved... Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic. You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold. They can stil be broken rather easily by neuts.
Yeah, but as I said this is a PvE setup, you can fit a cap booster, pulse the repper with the cap cycles (which is still more than enough) and focus fire the neutships first. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Lin Xou
Just In Time Science Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:53:00 -
[6687] - Quote
Can we change the high energy physics skill to a skill that is relevant? Like tactical weapon configuration as it is classed as siege module? I hate training combat pilots in esoteric science skills for no reason. At least confirm that this skill is definitely required instead of vague GÇ£train at your own riskGÇ¥. That has to be an easy one to confirm  |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 16:08:00 -
[6688] - Quote
Lin Xou wrote:Can we change the high energy physics skill to a skill that is relevant? Like tactical weapon configuration as it is classed as siege module? I hate training combat pilots in esoteric science skills for no reason. At least confirm that this skill is definitely required instead of vague GÇ£train at your own riskGÇ¥. That has to be an easy one to confirm  Very true. Personally agree with wep config 1 or marauders 4 seems like a better prereq than high energy physics. |

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
576
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 16:22:00 -
[6689] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Some feedback from the transformations:
Golem: looks nice opening those "flaps" or "air brakes". Not much to say there.
Kronos: mixed on this one, its not nearly as epic as one would've thought.
Paladin: I kinda like it? I dislike the hull. Ever since the Apoc got redone, I lost my beautiful thin and slim elegant Paladin...but I can live with this better than the fat-so version.
Vargur: Errr...question, why do all ships "open", while the Vargur "closes"? Most open to expose parts (ironically) while getting tankier, but the Vargur gets plated and armored (on a shield ship). It makes the most sense though, as they become tanking beasts, the other 3 expose parts (and feel like they might do more damage), but the Vargur deploys metal plates on the wingy bits.
The general consensus though is disappointment. The changes are not dramatic enough, not obvious enough. At first glance they look like I forgot to move rather than I'm forced.
that armour should enclose all the wingy bits and maybe a little more at various parts of the ship Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8353
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 17:50:00 -
[6690] - Quote
Gloredon wrote:
Kronos: Ship looks good, but I lost the ability to use bastion again on Sisi, I'll fix that later for further testing. I would probably go with the blaster build, but I've got large T2 rails trained up and I'm going to test both. With blasters, I know the DPS will out-do a Mach's, but the range is less, even in Bastion, but it's probably workable, with some triangulation using MJD.
I have an effective range of 70km on my blasters. I can hit stuff out to 100km which has proven somewhat confusing to many a frigate and the tracking is great. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 18:18:00 -
[6691] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? I like your thinking!! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:08:00 -
[6692] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death?
I must admit that this post is heavily underrated :) +1 |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:27:00 -
[6693] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death?
Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:38:00 -
[6694] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy. 
I'm wondering... If you're in bastion, and bastion is immune to ewar, but you're the one using the target spectrum breaker.. Will the Marauder pilot still be able to target?
If so, that's epic lulz |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:42:00 -
[6695] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I'm wondering... If you're in bastion, and bastion is immune to ewar, but you're the one using the target spectrum breaker.. Will the Marauder pilot still be able to target?
If so, that's epic lulz No, Target Spectrum Breakers automatically scramble your targeting - hence why this will only work with FoF missiles (no rockets, heavy assault missiles or torpedoes). It's still an awesome strategy, and I think this is the Golem is the perfect platform for busting low-sec gate camps. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:47:00 -
[6696] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  I'm wondering... If you're in bastion, and bastion is immune to ewar, but you're the one using the target spectrum breaker.. Will the Marauder pilot still be able to target? If so, that's epic lulz
Very interesting idea. I just logged into the test server and tried it. The spectrum breaker DOES work while in bastion mode.
Also read this from the modules description:
Note: Will affect all targeting computers, including those of friendly vessels, of vessels immune to electronic warfare, and of the host ship itself. Can be fitted to Battleship, Black Ops and Marauder class ships. Prototype Inferno Module.
So by that, the marauder (golem in this case) would be jamming itself through its ewar immunity.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:53:00 -
[6697] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  I'm wondering... If you're in bastion, and bastion is immune to ewar, but you're the one using the target spectrum breaker.. Will the Marauder pilot still be able to target? If so, that's epic lulz Very interesting idea. I just logged into the test server and tried it. The spectrum breaker DOES work while in bastion mode. Also read this from the modules description: Note: Will affect all targeting computers, including those of friendly vessels, of vessels immune to electronic warfare, and of the host ship itself. Can be fitted to Battleship, Black Ops and Marauder class ships. Prototype Inferno Module. So by that, the marauder (golem in this case) would be jamming itself through its ewar immunity.
ahh... See, I've never read the description. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:57:00 -
[6698] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:So by that, the marauder (golem in this case) would be jamming itself through its ewar immunity. Yeah, it basically kills your ability to target lock. Still a really interesting idea...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

stoicfaux
3290
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 20:18:00 -
[6699] - Quote
I thought the Target Breaker's effectiveness wasn't that great? e.g. 33% success rate against 18 ships.
|

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 20:33:00 -
[6700] - Quote
I'm curious if the target breaker works on NPC's ?
Would it be fun to try in a mission or complex with say, 50 NPC ships targeting you?
I don't see how it would be worth the penalty, but just curious if it would even work, and if your in high sec, would it get you concorded ? |
|

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 20:38:00 -
[6701] - Quote
Um I might be a a bit slow but what's so awesome about that?
What's stopping you from going on TQ now and fitting dual XL-ASBs on the Golem with FoF missiles and doing the exact same thing? Bastion just gives you a bit more tank but otherwise it's functionally identical. If you're going to fit non-BS weapons you can drop target painters and mount a pretty nice tank already anyway.
Plus you have no guarantee that your FoF missiles even hit the same target, you'll pretty much just be inviting them to call in reinforcements to gank your Lolem to death. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 21:34:00 -
[6702] - Quote
Yeah, it's not. You'd need a few ships to probably have a noticeable effect.
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:I'm curious if the target breaker works on NPC's ? Would it be fun to try in a mission or complex with say, 50 NPC ships targeting you? I don't see how it would be worth the penalty, but just curious if it would even work, and if your in high sec, would it get you concorded ? Yes it does, though it's only really effective if you initiate it at the outset. Once they lock you it seems to stick regardless. Haven't tried it off the Jita dock.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 21:47:00 -
[6703] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Bastion gives you more than a "bit more" tank. You're getting partial T2 resists for starters, then you're getting a the +30% shield/armor/hull reists and finally the 75% shield boost bonus with Bastion and EW immunity.
Uhh, were are you getting partial T2 resists? and it's 100% shield boost bonus in bastion. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 21:59:00 -
[6704] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dorororo wrote:Um I might be a a bit slow but what's so awesome about that?
What's stopping you from going on TQ now and fitting dual XL-ASBs on the Golem with FoF missiles and doing the exact same thing? Bastion just gives you a bit more tank but otherwise it's functionally identical. If you're going to fit non-BS weapons you can drop target painters and mount a pretty nice tank already anyway.
Plus you have no guarantee that your FoF missiles even hit the same target, you'll pretty much just be inviting them to call in reinforcements to gank your Lolem to death. Bastion gives you more than a "bit more" tank. You're getting partial T2 resists for starters, then you're getting a the +30% shield/armor/hull reists and finally the 75% shield boost bonus with Bastion and EW immunity.
So? It just means you can tank a bigger gang. The mechanics are exactly the same, EW immunity doesn't mean anything since you're using FoF missiles.
You can't stop any of the opposing force from warping off, you can't kill anything since your FoF missiles don't focus fire, and you're stuck for 2 mins from the time you activate Bastion since you can't jump. I'm still not getting how this is awesome for anyone other than the campers. Or is it just the LOL factor? Because you can already do that on TQ.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:10:00 -
[6705] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Bastion gives you more than a "bit more" tank. You're getting partial T2 resists for starters, then you're getting a the +30% shield/armor/hull reists and finally the 75% shield boost bonus with Bastion and EW immunity. Uhh, were are you getting partial T2 resists? and it's 100% shield boost bonus in bastion. Pretty sure he is referring to marauders' hull resists being better than t1, but not quite up to the levels of resistance that other t2 hulls get. Could be wrong though.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:32:00 -
[6706] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:[Pretty sure he is referring to marauders' hull resists being better than t1, but not quite up to the levels of resistance that other t2 hulls get. Could be wrong though. Yeah, that's why I said "partial".  I could be wrong on the shield boost; I thought it was 37.5% x 2 (75%) with Bastion but maybe it's 37.5% + 100% (137.5%). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:35:00 -
[6707] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:[Pretty sure he is referring to marauders' hull resists being better than t1, but not quite up to the levels of resistance that other t2 hulls get. Could be wrong though. Yeah, that's why I said "partial".  I could be wrong on the shield boost; I thought it was 37.5% x 2 (75%) with Bastion but maybe it's 37.5% + 100% (137.5%).
your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:39:00 -
[6708] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy. 
PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity.
WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:46:00 -
[6709] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere.
I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:49:00 -
[6710] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants... 
They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%.
Doe snto matter the order. You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started.
Add crytal set over that again in a composite way "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:11:00 -
[6711] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants...  They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%. Doe snto matter the order. You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started. Add crytal set over that again in a composite way
Where are you getting the 74%?
Thought it would be 237.5% over standard?
Oh, and is it stacking penalized?
I'm guessing without bonus I would rep 5-6% with pith-x XL. So, if i'm repping 26% with bastion and lvl 5 marauder (no implants I believe).
That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong...
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:32:00 -
[6712] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong... Dunno, but I'm thinking 4 Large Batteries are in order...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:39:00 -
[6713] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants...  They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%. Doe snto matter the order. You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started. Add crytal set over that again in a composite way Where are you getting the 74%? Thought it would be 237.5% over standard? Oh, and is it stacking penalized? I'm guessing without bonus I would rep 5-6% with pith-x XL. So, if i'm repping 26% with bastion and lvl 5 marauder (no implants I believe). That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong...
The ship bonus is never stack penaliozed.
Take for example you have a booster that boost 100 shield
Now you add the ship bonus of 37% so you boost 137 shield. Now you add 100% over that.. the bastion bonus. GOes to 274 shield.
The same way that you put a damage module that adds 10% of damage on a ship that has 50% damage bonus. THe final damage bonus is not 60%. Its 65% "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
787
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:46:00 -
[6714] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants...  They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%. Doe snto matter the order. You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started. Add crytal set over that again in a composite way Where are you getting the 74%? Thought it would be 237.5% over standard? Oh, and is it stacking penalized? I'm guessing without bonus I would rep 5-6% with pith-x XL. So, if i'm repping 26% with bastion and lvl 5 marauder (no implants I believe). That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong... You made the same mistake, it's multiplicative, not additive. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:47:00 -
[6715] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants...  They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%. Doe snto matter the order. You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started. Add crytal set over that again in a composite way Where are you getting the 74%? Thought it would be 237.5% over standard? Oh, and is it stacking penalized? I'm guessing without bonus I would rep 5-6% with pith-x XL. So, if i'm repping 26% with bastion and lvl 5 marauder (no implants I believe). That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong... The ship bonus is never stack penaliozed. Take for example you have a booster that boost 100 shield Now you add the ship bonus of 37% so you boost 137 shield. Now you add 100% over that.. the bastion bonus. GOes to 274 shield. The same way that you put a damage module that adds 10% of damage on a ship that has 50% damage bonus. THe final damage bonus is not 60%. Its 65%
Huh? I thought it was of the base shield boosts... Not factoring skills... not factoring other bonuses(unless stacking penalized).
Basically, the 100% bastion bonus only boosts the shield boost of the booster itself, and does not boost the shield boost bonus of the hull. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, it seems odd. That means you'd boost base shield boost stat, boost skill bonuses, boost hull bonus, and boost implant bonuses.
That's a lot of bonusing...
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:50:00 -
[6716] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:your second assumption would be correct. with a pith x-type XL shield booster, I am boosting the Golem for 26% of its shield HP per cycle at my skills. Pretty epic. So it's +137.5% shield boost with Bastion vs. the original +37.5%? Who cares about the TP and shield bonus of the Golem! Marauders-I for the win! I'll take the 107.5% and allocate the training elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the 45% from a set of Crystal implants...  They are separate bonuses.. so if your starting cap boost is 100%. You add a 37.5% you have 137% of your original boost. NOw.. you add a 100% bonus. You get 274%. Doe snto matter the order. You coudl do 100% apply the 100% bonus to 200% then add 37.5% and end up with the same 274% of what you started. Add crytal set over that again in a composite way Where are you getting the 74%? Thought it would be 237.5% over standard? Oh, and is it stacking penalized? I'm guessing without bonus I would rep 5-6% with pith-x XL. So, if i'm repping 26% with bastion and lvl 5 marauder (no implants I believe). That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong... You made the same mistake, it's multiplicative, not additive.
I didn't add because I was determining how many times more rep I have.
i may be looking at it wrong, cause my basis if off of a nightmare boostin unbonused with the same shield booster. However, the nightmare has more shield HP. So, I would possibly boost 8-10% on the Golem without bastion and hull bonus. That would mean 26% is fairly close to 237.5% more rep.... I guess.
correction, 137.5% more rep |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:55:00 -
[6717] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: I thought it was of the base shield boosts... Not factoring skills... not factoring other bonuses(unless stacking penalized).
Basically, the 100% bastion bonus only boosts the shield boost of the booster itself, and does not boost the shield boost bonus of the hull. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, it seems odd. That means you'd boost base shield boost stat, boost skill bonuses, boost hull bonus, and boost implant bonuses.
That's a lot of bonusing...
ALL bonuses in eve are multiplicative and are applied over an attribute. One after the other. THey are NEVER summed then applied. THeya re aLWAYS applied one by one.
That is the whole reason for stack nerfign exist.
The bastion bonusapplies over the shiled boost. PERDIO... What value is that? The shiled base value , after applied the ship hull bonus.
That is how EVERYTHING works in eve! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
875
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 23:57:00 -
[6718] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:That is how EVERYTHING works in eve!
It's true.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
612
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:06:00 -
[6719] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:That is how EVERYTHING works in eve! It's true.
Never set down to do the math on it, so that I did not know. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:26:00 -
[6720] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity. WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose!
Well, it was just a thought of how funny it would look on say, a station camp, if a bunch of Marauders undocked and did this. For the record, to FOF Cruise missiles you are always "in range", especially with Bastion on, so I'm not sure I understand the comment regarding that part. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:37:00 -
[6721] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Well, it was just a thought of how funny it would look on say, a station camp, if a bunch of Marauders undocked and did this. For the record, to FOF Cruise missiles you are always "in range", especially with Bastion on, so I'm not sure I understand the comment regarding that part. It's still an interesting idea. Maybe you struck a nerve...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:39:00 -
[6722] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity. WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose!
adapte...
If in doubt...do...excessively. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:09:00 -
[6723] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Well, it was just a thought of how funny it would look on say, a station camp, if a bunch of Marauders undocked and did this. For the record, to FOF Cruise missiles you are always "in range", especially with Bastion on, so I'm not sure I understand the comment regarding that part. It's still an interesting idea. Maybe you struck a nerve... 
Nerrve? maybe you shoudl do your homework... we do not camp in UMAD ( except camping for a specific target that we followe dinto a system and we know it will come out trough that gate).
It sjut hat the idea is stupid and anyoen that tries it will die! And the more marauders that die in such stupid ways, the less of them we will have to hunt.
And no you cannot adapt to the fact that when you cannot move, the enemy may at any time just ignore you and get out of there. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:11:00 -
[6724] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity. WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose! Well, it was just a thought of how funny it would look on say, a station camp, if a bunch of Marauders undocked and did this. For the record, to FOF Cruise missiles you are always "in range", especially with Bastion on, so I'm not sure I understand the comment regarding that part.
The ECM woudl mean nothing. PEopel would not stay within its pathetic range. And your marauder would STILL DIE!!!
Your uber huge tank will not save you! You will just die a little bit later.
Want to break a gate camp? Do it the proper way, with a smart team with remote repair, or nano ships, or e war and reasonable firepower. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:59:00 -
[6725] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death? Lol, I can imagine the lulz and tears this would produce, bravo for a brilliant stratagy.  PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity. WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose! Well, it was just a thought of how funny it would look on say, a station camp, if a bunch of Marauders undocked and did this. For the record, to FOF Cruise missiles you are always "in range", especially with Bastion on, so I'm not sure I understand the comment regarding that part. The ECM woudl mean nothing. PEopel would not stay within its pathetic range. And your marauder would STILL DIE!!! Your uber huge tank will not save you! You will just die a little bit later. Want to break a gate camp? Do it the proper way, with a smart team with remote repair, or nano ships, or e war and reasonable firepower.
Ok ... err, Spectrum Target Breaker does not have "range", it just break people target lock on you. My general gut feeling is that if people can't target you at ANY range, it does in fact the opposite of "die faster".
You are an angry angry person and you need to lighten up. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 02:06:00 -
[6726] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Nerrve? maybe you shoudl do your homework... we do not camp in UMAD ( except camping for a specific target that we followe dinto a system and we know it will come out trough that gate). < yawn > ... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 04:24:00 -
[6727] - Quote
So in what situation/s is the marauder better than any other ship, given their massive skill and isk requirements?
What are they not only capable of doing, but what do they Excel at?
No reason to use them over pirate or even tech 1 as far as i see. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 04:31:00 -
[6728] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:So in what situation/s is the marauder better than any other ship, given their massive skill and isk requirements? What are they not only capable of doing, but what do they Excel at? No reason to use them over pirate or even tech 1 as far as i see. Marauders are now the best at active tanking, bar none. I think it remains to see how effective they'll be missions and incursions. As it now stands, from a purely DPS standpoint they're probably on par with most Faction battleships, above T1s but below Pirate battleships. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 04:35:00 -
[6729] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:So in what situation/s is the marauder better than any other ship, given their massive skill and isk requirements?
What are they not only capable of doing, but what do they Excel at?
No reason to use them over pirate or even tech 1 as far as i see.
I don't think it's a case of excelling with marauders. I think it's more of a case in efficiency. With other bs's you have come back to salvage, and you burn more ammo. Marauders have a bit lower dps than pirate, but they can salvage on the go, use less ammo, and with bastion, there's no warping out in pve cause you're taking too much damage. All this equates to higher Isk/hour. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 04:42:00 -
[6730] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Battle Cube wrote:So in what situation/s is the marauder better than any other ship, given their massive skill and isk requirements? What are they not only capable of doing, but what do they Excel at? No reason to use them over pirate or even tech 1 as far as i see. Marauders are now the best at active tanking, bar none. I think it remains to see how effective they'll be missions and incursions. As it now stands, from a purely DPS standpoint they're probably on par with most Faction battleships, above T1s but below Pirate battleships.
problem is, having 1 quality that is better does not mean its function is superior. Certainly useless in incursions (even if it is possible to use them, it is inefficient for reasons explained a thousand times here) and they are less efficient in L4s then pirate
Its like.... there are different kinds of axes. Some are sharp, some are shiney, some are light.
The lightest axe will be the easiest to weild, but if it shatters on impact it will be useless compared to a heavy one. |
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 04:43:00 -
[6731] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:So in what situation/s is the marauder better than any other ship, given their massive skill and isk requirements?
What are they not only capable of doing, but what do they Excel at?
No reason to use them over pirate or even tech 1 as far as i see. I don't think it's a case of excelling with marauders. I think it's more of a case in efficiency. With other bs's you have come back to salvage, and you burn more ammo. Marauders have a bit lower dps than pirate, but they can salvage on the go, use less ammo, and with bastion, there's no warping out in pve cause you're taking too much damage. All this equates to higher Isk/hour.
with the new salvage module there is no reason to use the marauders tractor bonus. Ammo? yeah thats not a good enough reason. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 04:47:00 -
[6732] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:So in what situation/s is the marauder better than any other ship, given their massive skill and isk requirements?
What are they not only capable of doing, but what do they Excel at?
No reason to use them over pirate or even tech 1 as far as i see. I don't think it's a case of excelling with marauders. I think it's more of a case in efficiency. With other bs's you have come back to salvage, and you burn more ammo. Marauders have a bit lower dps than pirate, but they can salvage on the go, use less ammo, and with bastion, there's no warping out in pve cause you're taking too much damage. All this equates to higher Isk/hour. with the new salvage module there is no reason to use the marauders tractor bonus. Ammo? yeah thats not a good enough reason.
It's a tractor module, not salvage, and it helps marauders more than any other ship.. Assuming it has good range |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 05:01:00 -
[6733] - Quote
Joe, any idea how much torpedo range on the Golem is boosted to while in Bastion mode? Wondering how close to 60km a person could get running two T2 rigors. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Johny Donovan
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 07:11:00 -
[6734] - Quote
shouldn't the paladin get 10% to optimal inline with the other ranges? instead of 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
or 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking like the normal percentages |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3495
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 07:22:00 -
[6735] - Quote
Congratulations CCP Ytterbium.
Whether it was intentional or not... you have created one of the largest, if not THE largest, "serious" threanoughts in the F&I sub-section... possibly even the entire EVE-O forums.
I hope you're happy (hopefully eating a baguette and laughing manically). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 07:46:00 -
[6736] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe, any idea how much torpedo range on the Golem is boosted to while in Bastion mode? Wondering how close to 60km a person could get running two T2 rigors. around 59 with javs 33 rage 39 normals with 2 riggor rigs |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 07:55:00 -
[6737] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Congratulations CCP Ytterbium.
Whether it was intentional or not... you have created one of the largest, if not THE largest, "serious" threanoughts in the F&I sub-section... possibly even the entire EVE-O forums.
I hope you're happy (hopefully eating a baguette and laughing manically).
This is nothing compared to the balance projectils thread that reached 800 pages. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 08:07:00 -
[6738] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:
You are an angry angry person and you need to lighten up.
So you want to test your theory? Feel free to try after patch. MEet us in any trade hub zone or low sec border close to those.
Check how effective those brakers are when only 3-4 persons are lockign you. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 10:48:00 -
[6739] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:around 59 with javs 33 rage 39 normals with 2 riggor rigs Rats! I was hoping to get a bit more mileage out of torpedoes, but the loss of that third rig slot really has an impact (thanks for posting that though, appreciated). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 10:52:00 -
[6740] - Quote
if ccp actually added a second range bonus golem with torps would be golden ( thinking here about 25% missle flight time) |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 11:13:00 -
[6741] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:if ccp actually added a second range bonus golem with torps would be golden ( thinking here about 25% missle flight time) There must be some sort of stacking penalty in-place, because the range bonus doesn't actually seem that significant. It looks like it would basically replace a hydraulic rig. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 11:21:00 -
[6742] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:if ccp actually added a second range bonus golem with torps would be golden ( thinking here about 25% missle flight time) There must be some sort of stacking penalty in-place, because the range bonus doesn't actually seem that significant. It looks like it would basically replace a hydraulic rig.
Yes, the Range bonus of the bastion module is stacking penalized. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
398
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 11:33:00 -
[6743] - Quote
Note to the art department: The base color of the new Golem (and hopefully the rest of the Caldari T2 ships) is awesome! But please add the black accents back in (including to where the Bastion module originates). Something just seems missing without them. Thanks. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 11:48:00 -
[6744] - Quote
For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer:
- TC II:
Optimal Bonus: 7,5% Fall-Off Bonus: 15%
- TE II:
Optimal Bonus: 10% Fall-Off Bonus: 20%
- Hopefully Bastion:
Optimal Bonus: 25% Fall-Off Bonus: 50%
It makes sense and would not be OP at all.
My lvl 4 vargur with arties and faction fitting (4 RF Gyros and T2 Projectile Burst Aerator) has 863 DPS with RF Fusion.
With one TE II, One TC II with Tracking Speed and one TC II with Range script it has 44+155km range, which means a final dps at 80km (usage of minimal tank forces me to use MJD) of 740 DPS. which sucks.
If Bastion would provide 50% fall-off it would be like 44+177km, ending up in 760, which still suck but is better. 4 guns shooting every 12-15 sec (fitting/skills) produce a high decrease in dps if just one shot misses..... |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 12:15:00 -
[6745] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer:
What for?
The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Optimo Sebiestor
Bondage Goat Zombie Strictly Unprofessional
192
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 12:23:00 -
[6746] - Quote
Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  |

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 12:24:00 -
[6747] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer: What for? The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC.
[Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Target Painter II Large Micro Jump Drive
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector I
Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2
Tell me where i got an extra in this fitting. Everything i told was already with bastion. thanks for your senseless post.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 12:34:00 -
[6748] - Quote
I mean an arty vargur is pure PvE. Who wants to use a Vargur with 1400 in PVP? A tornado does everything better. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 12:34:00 -
[6749] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:around 59 with javs 33 rage 39 normals with 2 riggor rigs Rats! I was hoping to get a bit more mileage out of torpedoes, but the loss of that third rig slot really has an impact (thanks for posting that though, appreciated).
I just started work, but if no one answers you before I get home today, i'll hop on and check.
To reply to Vinyl's comment, I'm pretty sure with my skills and t2 rigs, I get that, or more range without bastion... Will have to check.... |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 12:40:00 -
[6750] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer: What for? The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC. [Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Target Painter II Large Micro Jump Drive 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector I Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 Tell me where i got an extra in this fitting. Everything i told was already with bastion. thanks for your senseless post.
Really? I don't see a bastion module on that list. Your Vargur has 8 High slots now.
I've got a few questions since I'm no gun user:
How usefull is that TP for a Gun Ship? How's your current damage with this setup and wouldn't it be more usefull to switch one of those Gyros for an additional TE? And if you use a bastion module, wouldn't it be better to loose that Invul in favour for yet another TC? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
|

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
75
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 13:29:00 -
[6751] - Quote
Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull postings on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fizzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
568
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 13:35:00 -
[6752] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull postings on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fizzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all.
That new model and animation might be there for quite some time. It's one of the things that even if CCP listens to you is there to stay until 2020. 
Unless we get something like DX11 first but even if, that's a mere 50/50 chance. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 14:33:00 -
[6753] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull postings on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fizzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. That new model and animation might be there for quite some time. It's one of the things that even if CCP listens to you is there to stay until 2020.  Unless we get something like DX11 first but even if, that's a mere 50/50 chance.
Isn't Rubicon going to be DX11?
Also, I'm agreeing with Rivr.
I did not expect major transformations with Marauders, but what we got is pretty pathetic. Oddly enough the Vargur has the most likely type of transformation, and it's still pretty weak.
Also, where the hell are the sounds? That would go a long way |

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
188
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 14:43:00 -
[6754] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull postings on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fizzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. That new model and animation might be there for quite some time. It's one of the things that even if CCP listens to you is there to stay until 2020.  Unless we get something like DX11 first but even if, that's a mere 50/50 chance. Isn't Rubicon going to be DX11? Also, I'm agreeing with Rivr. I did not expect major transformations with Marauders, but what we got is pretty pathetic. Oddly enough the Vargur has the most likely type of transformation, and it's still pretty weak. Also, where the hell are the sounds? That would go a long way
sounds in space?
also where were you when they changed all the turret sounds so you can hear them at all? and some of them just straight up sound pathetic? like the transition from heavy pulse old sound. to the new one. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 14:46:00 -
[6755] - Quote
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion 
try that when a curse finds you..... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 14:46:00 -
[6756] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull postings on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fizzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. That new model and animation might be there for quite some time. It's one of the things that even if CCP listens to you is there to stay until 2020.  Unless we get something like DX11 first but even if, that's a mere 50/50 chance. Isn't Rubicon going to be DX11? Also, I'm agreeing with Rivr. I did not expect major transformations with Marauders, but what we got is pretty pathetic. Oddly enough the Vargur has the most likely type of transformation, and it's still pretty weak. Also, where the hell are the sounds? That would go a long way sounds in space? also where were you when they changed all the turret sounds so you can hear them at all? and some of them just straight up sound pathetic? like the transition from heavy pulse old sound. to the new one.
Well aware of all that. However, for the sake of immersion, it's a necessity |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 15:07:00 -
[6757] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull postings on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fizzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. That new model and animation might be there for quite some time. It's one of the things that even if CCP listens to you is there to stay until 2020.  Unless we get something like DX11 first but even if, that's a mere 50/50 chance. Isn't Rubicon going to be DX11? Also, I'm agreeing with Rivr. I did not expect major transformations with Marauders, but what we got is pretty pathetic. Oddly enough the Vargur has the most likely type of transformation, and it's still pretty weak. Also, where the hell are the sounds? That would go a long way sounds in space? also where were you when they changed all the turret sounds so you can hear them at all? and some of them just straight up sound pathetic? like the transition from heavy pulse old sound. to the new one.
its not in space, in ship imho, sicne we are not only capsuulers..
and lasers sound, old to new, 70% disappointement, 30% sadness and silent, imho..
anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 15:23:00 -
[6758] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
sounds in space?
I usually don't bite with things like this but today work is slow so i'm gonna.
You are quite correct, in space there is no transmission medium for sound to travel through, hence no sound.
But do you know what else isn't in space, Marauders, Cruisers, Motherships, Frozen corpses, Roadhouses, Stargates, DED complexs and all the rest of the **** we enjoy as EVE players, we're not stupid and no-one cares if its not real. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 15:48:00 -
[6759] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:
sounds in space?
I usually don't bite with things like this but today work is slow so i'm gonna. You are quite correct, in space there is no transmission medium for sound to travel through, hence no sound. But do you know what else isn't in space, Marauders, Cruisers, Motherships, Frozen corpses, Roadhouses, Stargates, DED complexs and all the rest of the **** we enjoy as EVE players, we're not stupid and no-one cares if its not real.
In space, there are no strippers. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8358
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 15:50:00 -
[6760] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you.....
Cap boosters are cool. |
|

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:00:00 -
[6761] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:
sounds in space?
I usually don't bite with things like this but today work is slow so i'm gonna. You are quite correct, in space there is no transmission medium for sound to travel through, hence no sound. But do you know what else isn't in space, Marauders, Cruisers, Motherships, Frozen corpses, Roadhouses, Stargates, DED complexs and all the rest of the **** we enjoy as EVE players, we're not stupid and no-one cares if its not real. In space, there are no strippers.
That's because they're all in my cargo hold :)
|

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:06:00 -
[6762] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool.
see? your mind is working only for PVP view, what ppl are talking about above either you dont read or just ignore cos of it is not about PVP.. wildcard slots are for only support in PVE, like TC, TP, SeBo etc..
really still not sure why are you here? you dont add anything for marauder's sake or i missed it. im not sure there is a position in goons rank for forum-filler (i didnt want use trolling atm) anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:10:00 -
[6763] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool. see? your mind is working only for PVP view, what ppl are talking about above either you dont read or just ignore cos of it is not about PVP.. wildcard slots are for only support in PVE, like TC, TP, SeBo etc.. really still not sure why are you here? you dont add anything for marauder's sake or i missed it. im not sure there is a position in goons rank for forum-filler (i didnt want use trolling atm)
I have no idea what you guys are refurring to... |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
610
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:18:00 -
[6764] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool.
and eventually end.. contrary to the patiene of the curse pilot ;) Also a curse can easily, really easily overhelm a large cap injector. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
610
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:19:00 -
[6765] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool. see? your mind is working only for PVP view, what ppl are talking about above either you dont read or just ignore cos of it is not about PVP.. wildcard slots are for only support in PVE, like TC, TP, SeBo etc.. really still not sure why are you here? you dont add anything for marauder's sake or i missed it. im not sure there is a position in goons rank for forum-filler (i didnt want use trolling atm)
This is a PVP game. PERIOD! Face it! Nothign in this game is ONLY for PVE. That is exact reason why marauders are being changed! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:30:00 -
[6766] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool. and eventually end.. contrary to the patiene of the curse pilot ;) Also a curse can easily, really easily overhelm a large cap injector.
Dual ASB on a vargur/golem? |

King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
363
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 16:33:00 -
[6767] - Quote
For pve, I initially opposed the removal of the web bonus on the paladin/kronos. I've used those bonuses to good effect in the past. With that said, I finally had a chance to test the revised ships on singularity. I like the revised hulls without it. They snipe stupidly well with these bonuses. And the paladin actually has enough grid to mount tachyons, a LAR, a prop mod and a cap booster without a crap load of ACR's and RCU's. It's amazing really. Warp in, immediately skip off 100km. Bastion a cycle then skip again if needed. Damage output is good as well. Perhaps not navy geddon levels, but enough to keep things moving.
For pvp, the vargur is the better option with a triple ASB fit. With a normal XL shield booster you're just a target for anything with neuts, though a dual heavy cap booster fit does work. The trouble with this kind of fit is obviously mobility. You can't move in bastion and outside bastion they really aren't much better than they are currently. A little more HP and some extra fittings so you can actually put a pvp fit on it (generally not possible currently) but it's nothing special. Hell, they even kept the nerfed to oblivion sensor strength.
I usually do small gang stuff so perhaps there's something I'm not seeing that may occur in larger fleets, but for small fleet stuff the only role I see for these ships is as a gate camper. Great local tank, respectable dps and completely static in battle without any ability to help in tackling or to pursue a moving target. Between their price and inability to engage in a dynamic fight, I seriously doubt we'll be seeing marauders online with these changes. Good ships sure, but for general pvp I'd still take a navy geddon or maelstrom. The Troll is trolling. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8358
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 17:07:00 -
[6768] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool. and eventually end.. contrary to the patiene of the curse pilot ;) Also a curse can easily, really easily overhelm a large cap injector.
These ships have the biggest cargo holds in the battleship class and to be frank, every battleships faces the same issues when hit with bonused neuts.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 18:27:00 -
[6769] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer: What for? The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC. [Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Target Painter II Large Micro Jump Drive 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector I Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 Tell me where i got an extra in this fitting. Everything i told was already with bastion. thanks for your senseless post. Really? I don't see a bastion module on that list. Your Vargur has 8 High slots now. I've got a few questions since I'm no gun user: How usefull is that TP for a Gun Ship? How's your current damage with this setup and wouldn't it be more usefull to switch one of those Gyros for an additional TE? And if you use a bastion module, wouldn't it be better to loose that Invul in favour for yet another TC?
- You do not see a bastion module, because my eft has no bastion module to put it in. I just showed you my fitting like i have it on singularity.
- So you are no gun user but you have helpful advices. for gun users?
- Multiple modules using the same modifier decrease the total effect. To use the bonus of bastion you can't use more then 3 modules giving you range. Thats the crap!
Thats why i ask for 50% fall off bonus on bastion. Fewer modules with bigger effect are better.
And the TP helps to hit a target better then another TC or TE because it uses another modifier!!!
|

Optimo Sebiestor
Bondage Goat Zombie Strictly Unprofessional
192
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 18:28:00 -
[6770] - Quote
We arnt even talking about cap injectors, XL ASB's and Count how many navy 400's you can put in Your hold.. :P |
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 18:59:00 -
[6771] - Quote
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:We arnt even talking about cap injectors, XL ASB's and Count how many navy 400's you can put in Your hold.. :P
But they are a broken toy in my eyes. You shouldn't be allowed to fit more then one. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
610
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 19:08:00 -
[6772] - Quote
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:We arnt even talking about cap injectors, XL ASB's and Count how many navy 400's you can put in Your hold.. :P
still they end.... and still marauders cannot move.. and therefore cannot track any damm single AB cruiser. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
399
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 19:18:00 -
[6773] - Quote
Can we maybe... I dunno... get back to discussing Marauders? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shamus en Divalone
Dip Dip Potatoe Chip
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 19:27:00 -
[6774] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Can we maybe... I dunno... get back to discussing Marauders?
Sure man!
Golem, love it, looks good, eats lvl 4's can even do ok in pvp on Sisi.
Me happy. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 19:30:00 -
[6775] - Quote
tested torpedo golem and its kinda nice now thx to bastion i can finaly use a rigor instead of missle speed rig - still the dps increase isnt that great over cruise missles come ccp give the torpedo golem some love a additional 25% flight time bonus to bastion that would finaly enable some 40km+ rage torpedo ranges with damage appli rigs  |

marVLs
460
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 19:43:00 -
[6776] - Quote
I will rather change Golem 10% velo bonus for torps and cruises to 20% torps only bonus.
Cruise missiles don't need more speed, they're superior to torps even without it, but that change will give torp golem some love, 3,5km rage torps velo (with bastion and fuel rigs so range don't get penalized) and 6,3km javs velo is really pain in the... on missions. Not only because of wasted salvos but also that micromanagement hell, You need to salvage, use TP's and count salvos...
And what about TP bonus, is it going to stay or being changed for explosion radius bonus? (im voting for expl bonus) |

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
577
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 19:44:00 -
[6777] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:tested torpedo golem and its kinda nice now thx to bastion i can finaly use a rigor instead of missle speed rig - still the dps increase isnt that great over cruise missles come ccp give the torpedo golem some love a additional 25% flight time bonus to bastion that would finaly enable some 40km+ rage torpedo ranges  with damage appli rigs 
you have javelins for that .. granted javelins need a slight dps buff so they are better than furies Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 20:02:00 -
[6778] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:tested torpedo golem and its kinda nice now thx to bastion i can finaly use a rigor instead of missle speed rig - still the dps increase isnt that great over cruise missles come ccp give the torpedo golem some love a additional 25% flight time bonus to bastion that would finaly enable some 40km+ rage torpedo ranges  with damage appli rigs  you have javelins for that .. granted javelins need a slight dps buff so they are better than furies
Javs would need a significant dps buff to out damage furies.
With my skills, 4 bcu t2, and 2 5% implants (rof, and cruise damage) i'm getting 1015 dps with fury. Last time I checked javs were only like 800dps or so at less than half the range.
I've always wondered which is messed up. Should rage torps be the long range ammo like fury cruise, or should fury cruise be the short range ammo like rage torp?
Missiles are just weird when it comes to ranges. I just find it weird how long range missiles get more damage the further you go...
Also, should the exp radius/velocity be swapped between long and short range missiles? I mean, that's our version of tracking, and don't short range weapons typically have better tracking? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
399
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 20:56:00 -
[6779] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:Golem, love it, looks good, eats lvl 4's can even do ok in pvp on Sisi. Me happy. I've warmed up to it since they changed the base color. Now to get those black accents re-added back in... If they changed the orange to light grey stripes, man - I'd be all over it. Are you running cruise or the new RHMLs?
Joe Risalo wrote:Missiles are just weird when it comes to ranges. I just find it weird how long range missiles get more damage the further you go...
Also, should the exp radius/velocity be swapped between long and short range missiles? I mean, that's our version of tracking, and don't short range weapons typically have better tracking? Sacrilege!!
marVLs wrote:I will rather change Golem 10% velo bonus for torps and cruises to 20% torps only bonus. (cough) ... RHMLs ... (cough) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
577
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 20:59:00 -
[6780] - Quote
its more like 960 Fury to 910 Javelins but javelins track better than furies so it ends up fairly similar dps i would expect with 3 bcu's on a raven anyway Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
399
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 21:29:00 -
[6781] - Quote
Sorry to re-visit this, but just to confirm: it's a 137.5% shield boost bonus with Marauders-V and Bastion on the Golem, correct? I think with T2 rigors, the new RHMLs and Bastion you'll have a decent setup for mission running (I'm guessing probably a range of around 75km with max skills). Damage application is going to be fairly decent with a sub-75m explosion radius (plus the explosion velocity bonus), which will probably mitigate the 20% DPS somewhat. Paper DPS is often radically different than real-world applied DPS. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
789
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 21:37:00 -
[6782] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Sorry to re-visit this, but just to confirm: it's a 137.5% shield boost bonus with Marauders-V and Bastion on the Golem, correct? I think with T2 rigors, the new RHMLs and Bastion you'll have a decent setup for mission running (I'm guessing probably a range of around 75km with max skills). Damage application is going to be fairly decent with a sub-75m explosion radius (plus the explosion velocity bonus), which will probably mitigate the 20% DPS somewhat. Paper DPS is often radically different than real-world applied DPS. +175% I believe (100% base + 37.5%)*2 = 275% if I've got the eve math right. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 21:40:00 -
[6783] - Quote
Shamus en Divalone wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Can we maybe... I dunno... get back to discussing Marauders? Sure man! Golem, love it, looks good, eats lvl 4's can even do ok in pvp on Sisi. Me happy.
Vargur: thumbs down for lvl 4s due to lack of dmg, mobility, and bastion projection / stacking penalties. Artys kinda suck compared to ACs in pve.
Planning on maxing out and using my mach as my primary mission ship if these are the final changes, esp since other ships can loot now. hope the mach's nerf will be gentle + justify gallente bs 5 xD.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
400
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 22:00:00 -
[6784] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Planning on maxing out and using my mach as my primary mission ship if these are the final changes, esp since other ships can loot now. hope the mach's nerf will be gentle + justify gallente bs 5 xD. Until it gets nerfed... See, that's the problem: we all know the other decent L4 missioning ships (Tengu, Mach, etc.) are next on the chopping block - so it makes it really frustrating since any skill-specific training could end up a dead end. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

marVLs
462
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 22:24:00 -
[6785] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I think with T2 rigors, the new RHMLs and Bastion you'll have a decent setup for mission running (I'm guessing probably a range of around 75km with max skills). Damage application is going to be fairly decent with a sub-75m explosion radius (plus the explosion velocity bonus), which will probably mitigate the 20% DPS somewhat. Paper DPS is often radically different than real-world applied DPS.
Well You'r wrong on RHML.
Their Fury range would be only 66,5km with 2xT2 Bay Thrusters and 6% velo implant (9km missile velo)
Compared to faction cruise missiles: they are slower (~1km), have less DPS ( ~50DPS), and have bigger explosion radius (~20m ,because You can fit rigors on Cruise setup instead of range rigs). On top of that You have DRONES to kill small stuff... and Cruise Furys (another +200DPS) combined with TP bonus etc etc ...
Overall: nope RHML are not for lvl4. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
400
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 22:44:00 -
[6786] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Well You'r wrong on RHML. Their Fury range would be only 66,5km with 2xT2 Bay Thrusters and 6% velo implant (9km missile velo)
Compared to faction cruise missiles: they are slower (~1km), have less DPS ( ~50DPS), and have bigger explosion radius (~20m ,because You can fit rigors on Cruise setup instead of range rigs). On top of that You have DRONES to kill small stuff... and Cruise Furys (another +200DPS) combined with TP bonus etc etc ...
Overall: nope RHML are not for lvl4. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, but you're wrong...
First, with V skills and no implants, the base range is 62.9km. This increases to 88.6km with two T2 hydraulic rigs. 105m explosion radius and 121.5m/sec explosion velocity. With Bastion I imagine even with stacking penalties this would push it out past 100km (someone please feel free to confirm).
Second, it's not just about raw DPS - it's about damage application. There's a finite degree to the amount you can micromanage optimal damage, so consider this: let's say you have a target that only requires two volleys of heavy missiles to destroy. You could fire two volleys of cruise missiles @ 16 seconds for full (wasted) DPS, or two volleys of heavy missiles @ about 10 seconds for 80% (but 100% utilized) DPS. The end result is the same, but the heavy missiles were cheaper and you can get an extra volley out to a new target in the same timeframe.
Would I run RHMLs exclusively? Probably not. But a 50-50 mix of RHMLs and cruise missiles is a winning combination. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
208
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 23:16:00 -
[6787] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.
- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years - in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones - in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing - people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years - more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion - a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 23:52:00 -
[6788] - Quote
I'd wager the answer is highly unlikely. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1209
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 00:32:00 -
[6789] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool. see? your mind is working only for PVP view, what ppl are talking about above either you dont read or just ignore cos of it is not about PVP.. wildcard slots are for only support in PVE, like TC, TP, SeBo etc.. really still not sure why are you here? you dont add anything for marauder's sake or i missed it. im not sure there is a position in goons rank for forum-filler (i didnt want use trolling atm)
You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE?
You really should, they're awesome. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 00:44:00 -
[6790] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE? You really should, they're awesome. What on earth possibly for? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 00:48:00 -
[6791] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE? You really should, they're awesome. What on earth possibly for?
I do... though, with bastion, I haven't had to use it... I know my luck though, and once I drop it is when I'll need it.
Oh, and I use a pith x XL shield booster.. That's why... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 00:58:00 -
[6792] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I do... though, with bastion, I haven't had to use it... I know my luck though, and once I drop it is when I'll need it. Oh, and I use a pith x XL shield booster.. That's why... I only need a Gistum A-Type medium shield booster. Guess I'm doing it wrong...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 01:59:00 -
[6793] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Can we maybe... I dunno... get back to discussing Marauders?
i went pop quick on the test server during the mass test. my repper cycle didnt even finish before ship went boom. my pod with full hg slaves escaped, unharmed. 2013.10.24 17:55:00
Destroyed: Paladin System: Poitot Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 41027
Involved parties:
Name: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (laid the final blow) Security: -4.90 Corp: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX Alliance: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Faction: None Ship: Moros Weapon: Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I Damage Done: 31937
Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX Security: -0.5 Corp: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Alliance: None Faction: None Ship: Apocalypse Navy Issue Weapon: Mega Pulse Laser II Damage Done: 9090
Destroyed items:
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Hobgoblin II, Qty: 10 (Drone Bay) Large Trimark Armor Pump II Tracking Enhancer II Conflagration L Damage Control II Tracking Speed Script Scan Resolution Script Small Mobile Siphon Unit (Cargo) Heavy Capacitor Booster II Scorch L, Qty: 4 (Cargo) Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Conflagration L
Dropped items:
Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II Salvage Drone I, Qty: 5 (Drone Bay) Bastion Module I Conflagration L Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Nanite Repair Paste, Qty: 8 Mega Pulse Laser II Navy Cap Booster 800, Qty: 14 (Cargo) Heat Sink II Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Large Micro Jump Drive Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer Mega Pulse Laser II Nanite Repair Paste, Qty: 1879 (Cargo) Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Navy Cap Booster 800, Qty: 6 Tracking Computer II Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor (Cargo) Mega Pulse Laser II Heat Sink II |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
454
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 03:05:00 -
[6794] - Quote
You anchor your self in front of a dreadnought sporting ehp of a tier 3 bc ...
I wonder what happened there :)
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 03:32:00 -
[6795] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:You anchor your self in front of a dreadnought while sporting ehp of a tier 3 bc ...
I wonder what happened there :) I anchored in the middle of the fleet that was setting up the gate camp. :P and ya, active armor tank is tiny. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 03:35:00 -
[6796] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:You anchor your self in front of a dreadnought while sporting ehp of a tier 3 bc ...
I wonder what happened there :) I anchored in the middle of the fleet that was setting up the gate camp. :P and ya, active armor tank is tiny.
Yeah, with bastion, these are dread chew toys.... If you see a dread, run or stay out of bastion.... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8359
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 04:54:00 -
[6797] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:We arnt even talking about cap injectors, XL ASB's and Count how many navy 400's you can put in Your hold.. :P still they end.... and still marauders cannot move.. and therefore cannot track any damm single AB cruiser.
Blasters on my kronos will start hitting said ab curse from 100km and will track it down to 10km before hitting issues. It will be dead or in warp before it can evern get into range. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 05:11:00 -
[6798] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:You anchor your self in front of a dreadnought while sporting ehp of a tier 3 bc ...
I wonder what happened there :) I anchored in the middle of the fleet that was setting up the gate camp. :P and ya, active armor tank is tiny.
next time use that mjd and that bonus range to not get stuck at 0 range in font of a dread fleet >_>'
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 05:12:00 -
[6799] - Quote
I was getting ready to test golem torp range, but the server is down... of course... |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 05:24:00 -
[6800] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Shantetha wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:You anchor your self in front of a dreadnought while sporting ehp of a tier 3 bc ...
I wonder what happened there :) I anchored in the middle of the fleet that was setting up the gate camp. :P and ya, active armor tank is tiny. next time use that mjd and that bonus range to not get stuck at 0 range in font of a dread fleet >_>' had 40 seconds before i could mjd, cause once you commit to bastion it's 60 seconds of TARGET before you can move :P |
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 05:29:00 -
[6801] - Quote
bastioning in a blob when you know there are dreds comming GOOD JOB  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 07:11:00 -
[6802] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:bastioning in a blob when you know there are dreds comming GOOD JOB  but back to the bastion and torpedos constant mjd is kinda cap heavy but thats mostly the only cap usage you will have with bastion  - still trying to get smash the supplier to see how good bastion will do there 
Yeah, of all lvl 4 missions, that's gotta be the hardest hitting one I've ever done |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 07:16:00 -
[6803] - Quote
with cruise missles its super easy but with torps its supposed to be fun  |

John Holt
Praetorian Cohort
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 07:31:00 -
[6804] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I do... though, with bastion, I haven't had to use it... I know my luck though, and once I drop it is when I'll need it. Oh, and I use a pith x XL shield booster.. That's why... I only need a Gistum A-Type medium shield booster. Guess I'm doing it wrong... 
sssh...nerf incoming because of your big mouth.
John Holt
|

marVLs
465
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 07:45:00 -
[6805] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, but you're wrong...
First, with V skills and no implants, the base range is 62.9km. This increases to 88.6km with two T2 hydraulic rigs. 105m explosion radius and 121.5m/sec explosion velocity. With Bastion I imagine even with stacking penalties this would push it out past 100km (someone please feel free to confirm).
Second, it's not just about raw DPS - it's about damage application. There's a finite degree to the amount you can micromanage optimal damage, so consider this: let's say you have a target that only requires two volleys of heavy missiles to destroy. You could fire two volleys of cruise missiles @ 16 seconds for full (wasted) DPS, or two volleys of heavy missiles @ about 10 seconds for 80% (but 100% utilized) DPS. The end result is the same, regardless of cruise having more DPS. And the heavier missiles were cheaper and you can get an extra volley out to a new target in the same timeframe.
Would I run RHMLs exclusively? Probably not. But a 50-50 mix of RHMLs and cruise missiles is a winning combination.
Whaaa? Stop telling this bs here 
105m exp radius? base range of 62? You'r taking those numbers from t1 missiles, not even Heavy Furys...  Then You have 700DPS (faction missiles, max skills, +6% imps) and good luck with that on lvl4 compared to cruise missiles lol even torps will do everywhere better. Do You ever do single lvl4 mission? Or maybe You'r from those PVE experts that fit ravens with CCC? Sry cant' hold myself 
Yeah sometimes some % of volley is wasted because target have less hp that missiles have damage, but even with this Cruises will own in every situation RHML on targets that are bigger than frigates. And go shoot with that (small volley 700DPS) NPC battleships, You will be surprised how longer it takes compared to cruises or torps, because of shooting with that small DPS with small volleys You let them to rep themselfs more
And that last sentence... fitting on golem 2Cruise launchers + 2RHML ... that just say everything about You'r "knowledge". Sry if i have offended You but im pissed when peps say something without checking it, or have no idea about it, and You argue on You'r assumptions...
But don't believe me go check it on SiSi  |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 08:00:00 -
[6806] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:with cruise missles its super easy but with torps its supposed to be fun 
haven't gotten smash supplier yet, but pirate blockade and a couple of others (i'll be running more but time has been limited due to RL ) was stupid easy, boring and took 20 min for PB cause with full room agro from the start oops...
Pretty much had to use scorch(800dps ) as everything was orbiting at 50km+ cept frigs at 25 and they had to be droned down. The bastion module appears to have a ewar threat bonus so stuff pretty much ignores light drones when you are bastioned; which at least is nice given the usual eat drones AI now. It sucks getting ~100ish dps from drones instead of 300, 75mb bandwidth was fine on it before, and would be fine even with the new range. I'd bet the drone bandwidth nerf is an attempt to start addressing the sentry assist fleets in nullsec.
the funniest part of the l4 was 2 of the battleships refused to get closer then 105km to me, so i finished everything else and mjd while approaching one, the mjd ramed him and sent the nightmare flipping pointy bit over arse. So as a solo missioning ship the paladin is fine, like we all knew it would it be. i'll have to take a few into the combat system to get a feel for solo pvp in them that's less likely to have capital support. But even with seeing the reps, i'm not convinced that the 100% remote assistance lockout is needed, 75-50% reduction in Remote reps when bastioned i could definitely see, locking out tracking/sensor boosting okay that's reasonable.
Remove the lockout on cap transfer, if they can vamp other targets it would make sense that they could cap transfer.
and ya i don't do many fights with capitals. I figured i would get blapped, but not in the first 15 seconds of the fight :P |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 08:03:00 -
[6807] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:with cruise missles its super easy but with torps its supposed to be fun  haven't gotten smash supplier yet, but pirate blockade and a couple of others (i'll be running more but time has been limited due to RL ) was stupid easy, boring and took 20 min for PB cause with full room agro from the start oops... Pretty much had to use scorch(800dps ) as everything was orbiting at 50km+ cept frigs at 25 and they had to be droned down. The bastion module appears to have a ewar threat bonus so stuff pretty much ignores light drones when you are bastioned; which at least is nice given the usual eat drones AI now. It sucks getting ~100ish dps from drones instead of 300, 75mb bandwidth was fine on it before, and would be fine even with the new range. I'd bet the drone bandwidth nerf is an attempt to start addressing the sentry assist fleets in nullsec. the funniest part of the l4 was 2 of the battleships refused to get closer then 105km to me, so i finished everything else and mjd while approaching one, the mjd ramed him and sent the nightmare flipping pointy bit over arse. So as a solo missioning ship the paladin is fine, like we all knew it would it be. i'll have to take a few into the combat system to get a feel for solo pvp in them that's less likely to have capital support. But even with seeing the reps, i'm not convinced that the 100% remote assistance lockout is needed, 75-50% reduction in Remote reps when bastioned i could definitely see, locking out tracking/sensor boosting okay that's reasonable. Remove the lockout on cap transfer, if they can vamp other targets it would make sense that they could cap transfer. and ya i don't do many fights with capitals. I figured i would get blapped, but not in the first 15 seconds of the fight :P done blockade in 23 mins with cruise golem ( included fly time ) buffer never dropped under 80% - its a snore mission now ;] bastion for solo missioning is great |

marVLs
465
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 08:58:00 -
[6808] - Quote
Fozzie what about those not balanced ranges on marauders? We have a goal to make them ships that are using short range weapons on long ranges, imo cool but only Paladin work here perfectly, it's very good balanced so pulses and tachyons have their usage 
I suggest changing bastion range bonus to: non stacking 20% optimal, 40% falloff
Thanks to that Vargur and Kronos will be closer to good balanced Paladin, because now they'r bad in that aspect (especially Vargur).
And we got Golem, as i suggested earlier change 10% velo bonus for cruise and torps for 20% velo bonus for torps only with non stacking 25% bastion velocity bonus.
Cruises don't need any buff on hull or bastion, they're veeeery good without them, but torps need badly at least that. Another thing is changing TP bonus for exp radius bonus. Firstly rest of marauders don't have ewar bonuses, secondly this will remove that baad TP juggling an micromanagement hell, and if anyone want they can still fit TP that won't stack its bonuses with that 25% exp radius reduction. |

AskariRising
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 09:02:00 -
[6809] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Fozzie what about those not balanced ranges on marauders? We have a goal to make them ships that are using short range weapons on long ranges, imo cool but only Paladin work here perfectly, it's very good balanced so pulses and tachyons have their usage I suggest changing bastion range bonus to: non stacking 20% optimal, 40% falloffThanks to that Vargur and Kronos will be closer to good balanced Paladin, because now they'r bad in that aspect (especially Vargur). And we got Golem, as i suggested earlier change 10% velo bonus for cruise and torps for 20% velo bonus for torps only with non stacking 25% bastion velocity bonus. Cruises don't need any buff on hull or bastion, they're veeeery good without them, but torps need badly at least that. Another thing is changing TP bonus for exp radius bonus. Firstly rest of marauders don't have ewar bonuses, secondly this will remove that baad TP juggling an micromanagement hell, and if anyone want they can still fit TP that won't stack its bonuses with that 25% exp radius reduction.
theyre reducing tp cycle times as part of the rebalancing |

marVLs
465
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 09:21:00 -
[6810] - Quote
[quote=AskariRising theyre reducing tp cycle times as part of the rebalancing[/quote]
Yeah i know but still... It was really frustrating on SiSi to use TPs, count salvos, salvage, manage drones in the same time when on rest of marauders You only half of that. Before changes peps ware complaing about that badly so it will be nice to change that. |
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 09:33:00 -
[6811] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Fozzie what about those not balanced ranges on marauders? We have a goal to make them ships that are using short range weapons on long ranges, imo cool but only Paladin work here perfectly, it's very good balanced so pulses and tachyons have their usage I suggest changing bastion range bonus to: non stacking 20% optimal, 40% falloffThanks to that Vargur and Kronos will be closer to good balanced Paladin, because now they'r bad in that aspect (especially Vargur). And we got Golem, as i suggested earlier change 10% velo bonus for cruise and torps for 20% velo bonus for torps only with non stacking 25% bastion velocity bonus. Cruises don't need any buff on hull or bastion, they're veeeery good without them, but torps need badly at least that. Another thing is changing TP bonus for exp radius bonus. - TP bonus is better then thisFirstly rest of marauders don't have ewar bonuses, secondly this will remove that baad TP juggling an micromanagement hell, and if anyone want they can still fit TP that won't stack its bonuses with that 25% exp radius reduction. pressing 3 buttons at 1 time is hardcore micromanaging >_> people were complaining that it was hard to keep tp synchronized with lauchers so you wouldnt have to wait 5 seconds for tps to finish cycle now its fixed with that speed bonus a golem with rages would get over 44km range - dont think ccp wants to add specialized bonuses to each weapon type |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1209
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 09:53:00 -
[6812] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE? You really should, they're awesome. What on earth possibly for?
Neut counter, high DPS missions (especially running epic arcs, or using Bastion+Blasters+MJD to jump into everything and start firing at point blank optimal) where you need to run a prolonged repper rather than burst cycles, and any time you use a MWD to burn to an accel gate sub 60km off.
If you're in a Kronos, you'll cap out without it. 6x Navy 800 in the booster and another 6 in the bay will last you a long time as a solid insurance policy. I wouldn't consider going without it now. It's not always needed, but when you have need of it, you're glad it's there. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 09:55:00 -
[6813] - Quote
biggest grudge i have with toprs golem right now are npc orbiting at 50 with max range skills + 5% implant and missle flight time rig ( because speed rig will get peanalized ) t1 missles get around 48 km range - could use 2 range rigs but with the addition of the bastion i was hoping to exchange the range rigs to appli rigs so that torpedo damage wont be so bad how about a 30/30 bonus on bastion 53km t1 torp range souds good doesnt it with 2 apli rigs |

baltec1
Bat Country
8359
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 09:57:00 -
[6814] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Fozzie what about those not balanced ranges on marauders? We have a goal to make them ships that are using short range weapons on long ranges, imo cool but only Paladin work here perfectly, it's very good balanced so pulses and tachyons have their usage I suggest changing bastion range bonus to: non stacking 20% optimal, 40% falloffThanks to that Vargur and Kronos will be closer to good balanced Paladin, because now they'r bad in that aspect (especially Vargur). And we got Golem, as i suggested earlier change 10% velo bonus for cruise and torps for 20% velo bonus for torps only with non stacking 25% bastion velocity bonus. Cruises don't need any buff on hull or bastion, they're veeeery good without them, but torps need badly at least that. Another thing is changing TP bonus for exp radius bonus. Firstly rest of marauders don't have ewar bonuses, secondly this will remove that baad TP juggling, micromanagement hell, and if anyone want they can still fit TP that won't stack its bonuses with that 25% exp radius reduction.
You dont want to give the kronos any more range. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 10:11:00 -
[6815] - Quote
Okay, I relented and had set up a SiSi client. I only tried the Kronos running L4 missions and here are my first observations.
No. 1: if you prepare the ship to not require the bastion module, you will not need to use the bastion module.
Yes, it's a tautology but think about it for a while. The issue is that if you are trying to fly a marauder (a Kronos in this particular case) the old way, the bastion will change nothing. Since you can already tank the worst, extra tank is redundant. Since range bonus stacks with already present modules, the range gain is negligible (optimal+falloff on blasters with Null: 65 vs 71 km against 2xTC+1xTE).
Let me take on this in two separate ways:
BASTTIONLESS KRONOS
Here, I love the falloff and MJD bonuses. Each other separately and both at the same time.
I learned not to rely on web bonus so I paid it farewell without a hint of regret. Falloff instead increases my blasters' operational range to mentioned 65km and rails' to whatever reasonable locking distance. Which in consequence means that with blaster fit I have bigger margin of range (less chasing, less dps lost to being too far) and with rails I can comfortable be sniping while retaining high dps. With MJD added I can keep short or long distance as desired. That said, I have feeling that AB may be handy at times to cover short distances while not shooting.
BASTIONFUL KRONOS
Here I can agree with some people saying that this is the solution looking for a problem. But in a good sense.
I admit I didn't try it very hard, yet, and there are some unexplored possibilities. Still I feel the module has potential. I'm going to try fittings with lighter tank and less range enhancers to take better advantage from being deployed. Though I'm not too sure what to do with freed slots, what could play along with tank+spank simplemindedness of mission running. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 12:37:00 -
[6816] - Quote
@CCP
Any chance of the Vargur/Paladin gaining some unbonused missile hardpoints? I'm thinking 3, yeah, no, make that 4 please. 
Something to mix things up a bit and grant some additional options, such that the ships have more different properties. Vargur: 4 missile hardpoints. Paladin: 2 missile hardpoints + 25 bandwidth. Kronos: 50 bandwidth. Golem: 4 turret hardpoints.
Yes, I planned flying my AC Vargur with 4xRHML instead of the Bastion ^^
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 14:06:00 -
[6817] - Quote
Ok, checking torp range on test.
I have range skills for missiles maxed out.
2 x Hydraulic bay thruster II Non-Bastion T1 - 42km Navy - 42km Rage - 35km Javelin - 64km
Bastion T1 - 49km Navy - 49km Rage - 41km Javelin - 74km
2 x Rocket Fuel cache partition II Non-Bastion T1 - 42km Navy - 42km Rage - 35km Javelin - 64km
Bastion T1 - 53km Navy - 53km Rage - 44km Javelin - 80km
1 x Each t2 Non-Bastion T1 - 43km Navy - 43km Rage - 36km Javelin - 65km
Bastion T1 - 53km Navy - 53km Rage - 44km Javelin - 80km
1 x Hydro II Non-Bastion T1 - 36km Navy - 36km Rage - 30km Javelin - 54km
Bastion T1 - 44km Navy - 44km Rage - 37km Javelin - 66km
1 x Rocket II Non-Bastion T1 - 36km Navy - 36km Rage - 30km Javelin - 54km
Bastion T1 - 45km Navy - 45km Rage - 37km Javelin - 68km
No Range rigs Non-Bastion T1 - 30km Navy - 30km Rage - 25km Javelin - 45km
Bastion T1 - 37km Navy - 37km Rage - 31km Javelin - 56km
So, if you wish, you can get 80km with one of each, or 74km with speed. Granted, this is on paper.
If you don't want that much range, you can fit 1 of either and get speed at 66km, or 2km more range...
66km is respectable, while 80km is freaking awesome for torps.... Hell, 74km with speed ain't no joke either.
Remember, this is range skills at 5 with no range implants |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 14:26:00 -
[6818] - Quote
problem with 2 range rigs is the damage application with 3 tps you still will do cruise damage maybe slightly more with bastion there is a huge potential where a 2 appli rig torpedo golem would be possible but we need some more range on torps while in bastion making the golem once again into the torpedo king ofc we could forget all that blah blah about bonus range if we could do selectable range jumps with mjd - my 2 ideas on how to make torpedo golem a better experience  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 15:41:00 -
[6819] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:problem with 2 range rigs is the damage application  with 3 tps you still will do cruise damage maybe slightly more with bastion there is a huge potential where a 2 appli rig torpedo golem would be possible but we need some more range on torps while in bastion  making the golem once again into the torpedo king  ofc we could forget all that blah blah about bonus range if we could do selectable range jumps with mjd - my 2 ideas on how to make torpedo golem a better experience 
1 t2 range rig with bastion is as much, or more than what they provide on live with 2 t2 range rigs.
Also, those are not stats that I factored by hand. Those are in test server, actually fitted, actually using each type of ammo, and actually using bastion....
But like I said, 1 t2 range rig with bastion is slightly more than what it is on live with 2 t2 range rigs.
So, if you're happy with that range (which is good enough for any lvl 4 target orbit range), then you'll be able to exchange a range rig for rigor.
If you like the buffed range of 2 x t2, then use it.. You're having to fit less tank, so you could very well fit that 3rd TP. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:04:00 -
[6820] - Quote
maybe give torps more ammo capacity or shorten reload time |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:13:00 -
[6821] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:maybe give torps more ammo capacity or shorten reload time
I once had the idea to wrap the reload time into the RoF and remove torps from having to reload.
I mean, look at it.
Torps fired from a sub/ship have to be reloaded after every shot. While most other types of missiles are fired in volleys. |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
55
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:28:00 -
[6822] - Quote
Change the Golem back to the Raven hull, it just so much better. Also make the bastion mode look more nature when the Golem does it, like all the other Marauders. And fix ALL missile battleship bonues so they have RHMLs in there too, like all missile cruisers do with RLMs. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:32:00 -
[6823] - Quote
but with torps your switching ammo rather often because of the lowish range on those - i see the golem as a specialized torpedo ship with great projection and aplication on them while the cruise version is just the cherry on top |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
611
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:47:00 -
[6824] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:We arnt even talking about cap injectors, XL ASB's and Count how many navy 400's you can put in Your hold.. :P still they end.... and still marauders cannot move.. and therefore cannot track any damm single AB cruiser. Blasters on my kronos will start hitting said ab curse from 100km and will track it down to 10km before hitting issues. It will be dead or in warp before it can evern get into range. If they hit me at close range then the curse will empty its hold of boosters long before I do and if it gets under my guns it has to deal with the smartbombs. Against small ships these ships are are just down right deadly.
really again.. I dare you to TRY! Youa re talkign with someont hat lives from killin g peopel that think that what they know in PVE applies to PVP "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1211
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:04:00 -
[6825] - Quote
Why don't you two take a Kronos and a Curse and fight it out on SiSi.
That said, my money's on Baltec. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

baltec1
Bat Country
8362
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:36:00 -
[6826] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
really again.. I dare you to TRY! Youa re talkign with someont hat lives from killin g peopel that think that what they know in PVE applies to PVP
And I am the guy who flies Megathrons in ways most think impossible. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
768
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:46:00 -
[6827] - Quote
OK, it's probably been posted but this is more than a threadnaught so here goes:
Golem, Paladin and Kronos all have this electrified proton blue shimmer hull parts when activating Bastion mode...where is it on the Vargur? All the poor Vargur has is dull rust plates than fan out...keep it in line and give the Minnie some flashy love perhaps? Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:46:00 -
[6828] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
really again.. I dare you to TRY! Youa re talkign with someont hat lives from killin g peopel that think that what they know in PVE applies to PVP
And I am the guy who flies Megathrons in ways most think impossible. Sideways and backwards. |

Tavarus Excavar
Obsidian Firelance Technologies
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:48:00 -
[6829] - Quote
alright i can see gettign rid of the heavy drones. But why not leave the ability to use medium drones? being able to switch between light and mediums is something i think gives the maruader a bit of versitility.
the bastion module i do not think is very useful for missiles. Extended range? and band aiding torpedo range and delayed damage? I think an rof bonus would work better since raw damage bonus would not make a lot of sense. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8362
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:02:00 -
[6830] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Sideways and backwards. 
This one time when I was cynoing in a few titans one of them bounced and hit me into a warpgate which then catapulted me into an archon backwards. Our cap pilots thought I was trying to bump it away because there is no way a Mega would be in a tengu fleet let alone be the cyno ship. So there I was, bouncing around sideways in the middle of a cap fleet with DBRB trying to explain that the situation really was as mad as it seemed.
And then we burned Delve, but that is a tale for another time. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:14:00 -
[6831] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Sideways and backwards.  This one time when I was cynoing in a few titans one of them bounced and hit me into a warpgate which then catapulted me into an archon backwards. Our cap pilots thought I was trying to bump it away because there is no way a Mega would be in a tengu fleet let alone be the cyno ship. So there I was, bouncing around sideways in the middle of a cap fleet with DBRB trying to explain that the situation really was as mad as it seemed. And then we burned Delve, but that is a tale for another time. Haha that's great +1 xD
|

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:19:00 -
[6832] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ok, checking torp range on test.
So, if you wish, you can get 80km with one of each, or 74km with speed. Granted, this is on paper.
If you don't want that much range, you can fit 1 of either and get speed at 66km, or 2km more range...
66km is respectable, while 80km is freaking awesome for torps.... Hell, 74km with speed ain't no joke either.
Remember, this is range skills at 5 with no range implants could you pls dont hype about those huge ranges you get with javs if you ever thinking about those your doing it wrong the real benefits of torps vs cruises are in t1 navy and rage torps and those dont have the ranges to be fully utilized with bastion and mjd effectively - with 1 range rig you often end with no sufficent range to combat ships on 50km and adding second range rig kills you damage application even with 3 tps because they get stacking penalized hard >_> its allways a loose loose situation with torps |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:26:00 -
[6833] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok, checking torp range on test.
So, if you wish, you can get 80km with one of each, or 74km with speed. Granted, this is on paper.
If you don't want that much range, you can fit 1 of either and get speed at 66km, or 2km more range...
66km is respectable, while 80km is freaking awesome for torps.... Hell, 74km with speed ain't no joke either.
Remember, this is range skills at 5 with no range implants could you pls dont hype about those huge ranges you get with javs  if you ever thinking about those your doing it wrong the real benefits of torps vs cruises are in t1 navy and rage torps and those dont have the ranges to be fully utilized with bastion and mjd effectively - with 1 range rig you often end with no sufficent range to combat ships on 50km and adding second range rig kills you damage application even with 3 tps because they get stacking penalized hard >_> its allways a loose loose situation with torps
I've actually flown a torp golem in lvl 4's before. Javs are almost required to properly hit frigs and cruisers with effective damage.
Also, a volley does so much damage that even against bss, rage torps have a ton of overkill. At one point when I used to fly it, I actually considered no longer carrying rage torps, as the difference in kills was 1 volley or less. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:31:00 -
[6834] - Quote
I'll put this as delicately as I can: torpedoes just suck. It doesn't matter how much Bastion extends the range or whether you use Javelin torpedoes. It's not the damage, and it's not even necessarily the explosion radius. It's the speed, plain and simple. These should travel at about 25-50% faster than cruise missiles, even if that means radically adjusting the fight time to compensate so that you end up with the same range. And I imagine with that one change they'd become an interesting alternative even without any kind of damage or rate of fire buff (although increasing the rate of fire by 10-15% certainly wouldn't hurt, either). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 20:48:00 -
[6835] - Quote
The thing about torps is that javs do same damage as navy at same stats just higher range. They do not I repeat do not apply damage any better than navy or t1 Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:41:00 -
[6836] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'll put this as delicately as I can: torpedoes just suck. It doesn't matter how much Bastion extends the range or whether you use Javelin torpedoes. It's not the damage, and it's not even necessarily the explosion radius. It's the speed, plain and simple. These should travel at about 25-50% faster than cruise missiles, even if that means radically adjusting the fight time to compensate so that you end up with the same range. And I imagine with that one change they'd become an interesting alternative even without any kind of damage or rate of fire buff (although increasing the rate of fire by 10-15% certainly wouldn't hurt, either).
While your argument is true, solving it by speeding up torps will mess up the big picture. No torpedo should be faster than a missile.
In one of my earlier posts, I tried to imitate this behavior by giving warning to devs about numbers. Digging too much number game might end up screwing whole picture up. To put in exampe:
What you're saying is: this must be %25-50 faster than this even it means replacing engine with this. So the torpedo-cruise balance should be in place now! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:44:00 -
[6837] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:The thing about torps is that javs do same damage as navy at same stats just higher range. They do not I repeat do not apply damage any better than navy or t1 I think we can all agree to some extent: torpedoes need some love. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 22:03:00 -
[6838] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:The thing about torps is that javs do same damage as navy at same stats just higher range. They do not I repeat do not apply damage any better than navy or t1
Uh, isn't greater range considered applying better damage when everything else is basically the same? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
888
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 22:05:00 -
[6839] - Quote
Regardless of how CCP feels on the matter, I still think that torps should be able to reach at least somewhat further than HAMs on an unbonused hull.
For a Marauder, 50km torps while in Bastion should be completely possible - especially since Bastion cruises go 240km+. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:06:00 -
[6840] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Uh, isn't greater range considered applying better damage when everything else is basically the same? If ammunition cost isn't a consideration, I would say so. I actually prefer missile velocity, even if it means a bit of a range penalty. [quote=Alvatore DiMarco]Regardless of how CCP feels on the matter, I still think that torps should be able to reach at least somewhat further than HAMs on an unbonused hull. For a Marauder, 50km torps while in Bastion should be completely possible - especially since Bastion cruises go 240km+. I tend to agree.
Scourge heavy assault = 2250 m/sec @ 4.0 s, 10k base range Scourge torpedo = 1500 m/s @ 6.0 s, 9k base range Scourge cruise missile = 4700 m/s @ 14.0 s, 65.8k base range
I'd love to see something radical for torpedos like this:
Scourge torpedo = 8000 m/s @ 1.5 s, 12k base range I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:12:00 -
[6841] - Quote
is there any hope for giving the hull itself increased damage output, then having the bastion module reduce that when in bastion mode?
with these changes, the ship is basically a bastion ship. There is no reason to not be in bastion module except to move.... in addition it would be nice to be able to use the ship in situations where constant movement or RR is required (like groups, or even incursions....)
My request... is to give the hull a damage bonus (i dont know, an additional 20%? ) and then have the bastion module reduce damage output by that same percentage. I guess i dont like the idea of bastion being completely and unequivocally better than not bastion.
it would add unpredictability for pvp, and utility for pve.
im not gonna lie, i just really want a reason to use these in incursions. And with bastion module..... they can not be used in incursions. Even if they can tank it, their dps is not good enough to compare to pirate. Even if their dps is the same (over all as a fleet) compared to a pirate fleet, you are going to have issues like no drone bunny, no hackers, no specialized ships because you need reps for those guys and if you have 1 logi your going to need at least one other. Then you have the problem of actually organizing at least 10 people who have marauders to get into a fleet and stay together for a few hours, god help you if anyone leaves. Then these problems escalate exponentially when you try to do assaults or HQs - because Then you cant get players who have the skills and the ships, you need even MORE logies if you want specialized ships, and the incoming dps to be tanked is going to be worse, so you will probably need to sacrifice dps for tank on the fittings. Lets say you are capable of doing this: then you become very susceptible to be contested, and will make no isk regardless of the challenge of creating such a useless fleet. Also ive heard npcs cant stop you from MJDing, dont know if that extends to incursion sansha, it probably does, so people probably wont die if they have MJDs, but then you have the issue of low dps due to bad range in large sites where typically, you would move. Because the players are independent in a fleet like this, some might not have MJDs or some may dualprop, but whats going to happen is a very spread fleet - leading to spread out sansha - leading to even slower dps.
i think that a small change on the hull for added dps OUTSIDE of bastion, could make a whole lot of players happy with the change - players who liked the marauders before would love it, and people who dont like bastion would love it. i would love it... give me love. love me. ; | |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:21:00 -
[6842] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:is there any hope for giving the hull itself increased damage output, then having the bastion module reduce that when in bastion mode?
with these changes, the ship is basically a bastion ship. There is no reason to not be in bastion module except to move.... in addition it would be nice to be able to use the ship in situations where constant movement or RR is required (like groups, or even incursions....) Honestly? I wouldn't pin your hopes on it... More than a few of us have suggested a RoF bonus, a heat absorption bonus (so could run weapons overloaded), a small damage bonus, etc. Marauders were always the best active tanks, and now with Bastion more so. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:25:00 -
[6843] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Battle Cube wrote:is there any hope for giving the hull itself increased damage output, then having the bastion module reduce that when in bastion mode?
with these changes, the ship is basically a bastion ship. There is no reason to not be in bastion module except to move.... in addition it would be nice to be able to use the ship in situations where constant movement or RR is required (like groups, or even incursions....) Honestly? I wouldn't pin your hopes on it... More than a few of us have suggested a RoF bonus, a heat absorption bonus (so could run weapons overloaded), a small damage bonus, etc. Marauders were always the best active tanks, and now with Bastion more so.
:( yeah i know. It still feels like they arent listening to our input anyway. Looks like they posted this radical change to the ship, but also a bunch of nerfs to dronebay, hitpoints, speed - only so they can Un-nerf them later to appease those who dont like the changes, which in the end still leaves the radical changes.... un....changed....
Like a little girl asking for a pony when they just want a cat....
But even if these were legitimate responses to our input, it didn't change anything meaningful. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:42:00 -
[6844] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote::( yeah i know. It still feels like they arent listening to our input anyway. Looks like they posted this radical change to the ship, but also a bunch of nerfs to dronebay, hitpoints, speed - only so they can Un-nerf them later to appease those who dont like the changes, which in the end still leaves the radical changes.... un....changed....
Like a little girl asking for a pony when they just want a cat....
But even if these were legitimate responses to our input, it didn't change anything meaningful. As I posted a way back, I think a lot of the design criteria was locked in stone: Bastion, MJD and the animation. Maybe there's a hidden role for them that's yet to materialize. Out of the proposed changes, the third iteration is the best.
Unrelated, I do agree with the comments on the Vargur animation lacking a bit. Personally, I think they should change the sliding metal plates to yellow feathers so that Bastion turns it into a giant chicken. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:59:00 -
[6845] - Quote
Pulse Paladin with Bastion and 2x Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computers with Scorch reaches 96km with 900+dps. On the other hand, Tachyon Paladin with the same setup and Ultraviolet or Xray (same range) does more damage. What were you saying about not wanting pulses to overstep tachs?
On the other hand, the Vargur with AC and Arty both fare considerably worse than the Paladin in any situation that requires damage at longer ranges (independant of NPC type). Please, give the Vargur more damage to mitigate this (I can't hit 900 dps with ACs at 90km, I can barely push 200 dps at that range, and that's if I hit with all the falloff). Not even arties can match Pulse DPS at range...Vargur sorely needs more damage to remain competitive.
The only reason I find why I'd use the Vargur over the Paladin is VS Angels or Guristas, where I can change my damage type to fix that. In all other situations, the Paladin fares FAR better. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 00:01:00 -
[6846] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Battle Cube wrote::( yeah i know. It still feels like they arent listening to our input anyway. Looks like they posted this radical change to the ship, but also a bunch of nerfs to dronebay, hitpoints, speed - only so they can Un-nerf them later to appease those who dont like the changes, which in the end still leaves the radical changes.... un....changed....
Like a little girl asking for a pony when they just want a cat....
But even if these were legitimate responses to our input, it didn't change anything meaningful. As I posted a way back, I think a lot of the design criteria was locked in stone: Bastion, MJD and the animation. Maybe there's a hidden role for them that's yet to materialize. Out of the proposed changes, the third iteration is the best. Unrelated, I do agree with the comments on the Vargur animation lacking a bit. Personally, I think they should change the sliding metal plates to yellow feathers so that Bastion turns it into a giant chicken.
meh. i dont like the huge tank bonus, but i still think a huge buffer would be better than huge solo tank. Then throw a aggro modifier module into existance and on the ship so it can be the tank, then give paladins lay on hands, then make new ships called rogues, hunters, mages, then change sansha into the lich king |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
401
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 00:27:00 -
[6847] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:meh. i dont like the huge tank bonus, but i still think a huge buffer would be better than huge solo tank. Then throw a aggro modifier module into existance and on the ship so it can be the tank, then give paladins lay on hands, then make new ships called rogues, hunters, mages, then change sansha into the lich king Just over three weeks to Rubicon, I think you have to learn to accept it at this point. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 00:35:00 -
[6848] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Battle Cube wrote:meh. i dont like the huge tank bonus, but i still think a huge buffer would be better than huge solo tank. Then throw a aggro modifier module into existance and on the ship so it can be the tank, then give paladins lay on hands, then make new ships called rogues, hunters, mages, then change sansha into the lich king Just over three weeks to Rubicon, I think you have to learn to accept it at this point. ah well. I think i'll use these to quadbox (or more) L4s for the lulz. Ive done spider tanked vargurs before, but it was a ***** to micromanage.
i guess i'll try to throw together some non-bastion fittings and see how they fair as incursion fits.
it makes me sad because i want the candy that is the transformation animation (hence the only reason i would even use it in L4s) |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
402
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 01:07:00 -
[6849] - Quote
I just want a black Raven. Golem is getting close... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 01:14:00 -
[6850] - Quote
huh, just checked out a video of the animations (heh, before i did that i got the test server client up and tried using my bonus skillpoints only to find it would still take another 2 days to get the skill to test the module)
well... esp the vargur... was.... disapointing. the other 2 i saw were ok. shifting parts on kronos looked cool but ended in a ship that looks exactly the same.
Guess i wont be missing out on much |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 02:12:00 -
[6851] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: Pulse Paladin with Bastion and 2x Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computers with Scorch reaches 96km with 900+dps. On the other hand, Tachyon Paladin with the same setup and Ultraviolet or Xray (same range) does more damage. What were you saying about not wanting pulses to overstep tachs?
On the other hand, the Vargur with AC and Arty both fare considerably worse than the Paladin in any situation that requires damage at longer ranges (independant of NPC type). Please, give the Vargur more damage to mitigate this (I can't hit 900 dps with ACs at 90km, I can barely push 200 dps at that range, and that's if I hit with all the falloff). Not even arties can match Pulse DPS at range...Vargur sorely needs more damage to remain competitive.
The only reason I find why I'd use the Vargur over the Paladin is VS Angels or Guristas, where I can change my damage type to fix that. In all other situations, the Paladin fares FAR better.
I would say the golem fairs better than any other marauder when it comes to bastion. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 02:23:00 -
[6852] - Quote
what makes cruise and torp bad is velocity of the ships. anything over 200m/s and you have a chance of doing only 1/4 of the damage and if its 250m/s + then bye bye. I notice this is most problematic when fighting angels since they like to use afterburner to get close to you. that velocity bonus on golem is a joke. it barely do anything. they should at least double it .
The other bad thing about torpedo is they have no ammo to kill frigates effectively unlike cruise with their precisions. |

Stray Denton
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 03:45:00 -
[6853] - Quote
If they wanted to make the marauders more interesting why not give the bastion module dual modes...
Bastion DPS mode : range and damage bonus, ship is stationary and unable to mjd in this mode, tank standard -20%
Bastion Off mode : everything goes back to standard marauder
Bastion Tank mode : Tank bonus, ship velocity normal, bonus to mjd, standard dps, damage and range reduced by 20%
30 secs to change between on and off and unable to go from tank to dps or vice versa without switching off first.
Just a thought that popped into my head and not sure it would make the changes any better, I'm sure someone will kindly point out the flaws, but I do think it's a bit more interesting than the current tortoise concept. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
199
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 04:29:00 -
[6854] - Quote
Stray Denton wrote:If they wanted to make the marauders more interesting why not give the bastion module dual modes...
Bastion DPS mode : range and damage bonus, ship is stationary and unable to mjd in this mode, tank standard -20%
Bastion Off mode : everything goes back to standard marauder
Bastion Tank mode : Tank bonus, ship velocity normal, bonus to mjd, standard dps, damage and range reduced by 20%
30 secs to change between on and off and unable to go from tank to dps or vice versa without switching off first.
Just a thought that popped into my head and not sure it would make the changes any better, I'm sure someone will kindly point out the flaws, but I do think it's a bit more interesting than the current tortoise concept.
It's already been proposed by other players numerous times (though, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't read through the nearly 7000 posts this thread already has). Don't really see any further point in proposing alternatives to the current bastion mod tbh. CCP didn't really seem interested in the twin bastion/scripted bastion idea before, no reason to think they would suddenly change their mind now. Maybe once things go live, that might change, though I doubt it. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
171
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 04:39:00 -
[6855] - Quote
Not sure if it's been asked already, but will there be (or is it being considered) to have a T2 bastion module? |

stars0ft
THORN Syndicate Black Legion.
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 04:48:00 -
[6856] - Quote
I used to run level 4s in an apoc, i always wanted to use a paladin but the tank and range+dps was horrible. so i went with a tengu, which i dont like but was the best
the changes youve suggested with improving the tank make the paladin sound like a real option for a level4s,
the web bonus existed for slowing down elite frigs in those missions. as long as while in bastion mode you can hit elite frigs i dont see why would need the web bonus.
i like what you are saying with the micro jump drive, but the issue is this, if you run a mission using a microjump drive is pretty horrible, to get to the next gate, most gates are random distances away.
i guess i would suggest making it so a marauder would have a special role bonus to mjump directly to mission gates?
i would also suggest not making mods use fuel so you dont spend more isk on your mods then you make in a mission. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 05:03:00 -
[6857] - Quote
stars0ft wrote:I used to run level 4s in an apoc, i always wanted to use a paladin but the tank and range+dps was horrible. so i went with a tengu, which i dont like but was the best
the changes youve suggested with improving the tank make the paladin sound like a real option for a level4s,
the web bonus existed for slowing down elite frigs in those missions. as long as while in bastion mode you can hit elite frigs i dont see why would need the web bonus.
i like what you are saying with the micro jump drive, but the issue is this, if you run a mission using a microjump drive is pretty horrible, to get to the next gate, most gates are random distances away.
i guess i would suggest making it so a marauder would have a special role bonus to mjump directly to mission gates?
i would also suggest not making mods use fuel so you dont spend more isk on your mods then you make in a mission.
I felt the same as you before I had the chance of testing the MJD. I didn't think it would work out at all.
However, after using it, it works quite well in lvl 4's. All you have to do is align in a direction that would put you at a relative distance from the gate. Then you jump. You can bastion for a cycle and then MJD back to the gate and bastion some more. Or, you can jump and bastion till it's clear, then jump to the gate when the room is clear.
It actually works damn well. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 05:27:00 -
[6858] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I've actually flown a torp golem in lvl 4's before. Javs are almost required to properly hit frigs and cruisers with effective damage.
Also, a volley does so much damage that even against bss, rage torps have a ton of overkill. At one point when I used to fly it, I actually considered no longer carrying rage torps, as the difference in kills was 1 volley or less.
nope javs have the same stats as t1 but thet have reduced damage so how can you claim that they are essential to killing frigs and cruisers maybe your talking about precission cruise missles ? |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 06:11:00 -
[6859] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Stray Denton wrote:If they wanted to make the marauders more interesting why not give the bastion module dual modes...
Bastion DPS mode : range and damage bonus, ship is stationary and unable to mjd in this mode, tank standard -20%
Bastion Off mode : everything goes back to standard marauder
Bastion Tank mode : Tank bonus, ship velocity normal, bonus to mjd, standard dps, damage and range reduced by 20%
30 secs to change between on and off and unable to go from tank to dps or vice versa without switching off first.
Just a thought that popped into my head and not sure it would make the changes any better, I'm sure someone will kindly point out the flaws, but I do think it's a bit more interesting than the current tortoise concept. It's already been proposed by other players numerous times (though, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't read through the nearly 7000 posts this thread already has). Don't really see any further point in proposing alternatives to the current bastion mod tbh. CCP didn't really seem interested in the twin bastion/scripted bastion idea before, no reason to think they would suddenly change their mind now. Maybe once things go live, that might change, though I doubt it. ccp doesnt really seem interested in anything other then their original post, that is to say, they arent changing it :\
300 pages later and they just revert to their original design, maybe a few tweaks like adjusting nerfs, but over all exactly the same.
depressing. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8364
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 07:18:00 -
[6860] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Stray Denton wrote:If they wanted to make the marauders more interesting why not give the bastion module dual modes...
Bastion DPS mode : range and damage bonus, ship is stationary and unable to mjd in this mode, tank standard -20%
Bastion Off mode : everything goes back to standard marauder
Bastion Tank mode : Tank bonus, ship velocity normal, bonus to mjd, standard dps, damage and range reduced by 20%
30 secs to change between on and off and unable to go from tank to dps or vice versa without switching off first.
Just a thought that popped into my head and not sure it would make the changes any better, I'm sure someone will kindly point out the flaws, but I do think it's a bit more interesting than the current tortoise concept. It's already been proposed by other players numerous times (though, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't read through the nearly 7000 posts this thread already has). Don't really see any further point in proposing alternatives to the current bastion mod tbh. CCP didn't really seem interested in the twin bastion/scripted bastion idea before, no reason to think they would suddenly change their mind now. Maybe once things go live, that might change, though I doubt it. ccp doesnt really seem interested in anything other then their original post, that is to say, they arent changing it :\ 300 pages later and they just revert to their original design, maybe a few tweaks like adjusting nerfs, but over all exactly the same. depressing.
It works and works well. You should try them, they are much better than the old ones. |
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
890
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 08:07:00 -
[6861] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:It works and works well. You should try them, they are much better than the old ones.
While I confess that I don't entirely have much of a grasp on how to interpret a ship's inertia modifier, the Vargur looks like it accelerates better and is more agile than the Tempest it was created from. Not only that, but it has more EHP and better cap as well.
No complaints on hull stats here.
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 08:29:00 -
[6862] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: ccp doesnt really seem interested in anything other then their original post, that is to say, they arent changing it :\ Why should they? The current iteration, which is refined initial proposal, is working fine. I'm flying Kronos on SiSi since couple of days and after getting used to I should say I'm happy with results. Here are times to complete of a bunch of missions I did just recently:
Dread Pirate Scarlet: 26m Worlds Collide(serp/gur): 31m Smash the Supplier: 21m Assault(serp): 31m Recon1(serp): 12m Recon1+2: 19m Gone Berserk: ~8m
Times are indicative, measured from undock/warpin to end of shooting or from last tick to end of shooting, no blitzing.
I know your e-peen is bigger and you can complete each of those missions in 5 minutes or shorter, but the point is that those times are comparable OR BETTER to what I could achieve on TQ with the same skills, techniques and implants and when flying Machariel (and shooting RF ammo, because I could). And those SiSi times can be improved as I did some erratic MJDing across the field and now and then forgot to turn off bastion when the moment was right. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8364
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 08:32:00 -
[6863] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:It works and works well. You should try them, they are much better than the old ones. While I confess that I don't entirely have much of a grasp on how to interpret a ship's inertia modifier, the Vargur looks like it accelerates better and is more agile than the Tempest it was created from. Not only that, but it has more EHP and better cap as well. No complaints on hull stats here.
I can tank anoms with just two lows and my blasters go out to 90 to 100km. Or swap out the scripts and I can track frigates orbiting me down to under 10km at which point my smartbombs take over. I have no need for drones other than salvagers and a few ecm just in case. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 08:46:00 -
[6864] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I can tank anoms with just two lows and my blasters go out to 90 to 100km. Hm, unless you're using some crazy officer stuff, I don't believe you can reliably hit at that range. During my recent tests even within falloff I had noticeable amount of misses against battleships. Though admittedly the overall dps was still nice. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
611
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:12:00 -
[6865] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:It works and works well. You should try them, they are much better than the old ones. While I confess that I don't entirely have much of a grasp on how to interpret a ship's inertia modifier, the Vargur looks like it accelerates better and is more agile than the Tempest it was created from. Not only that, but it has more EHP and better cap as well. No complaints on hull stats here. I can tank anoms with just two lows and my blasters go out to 90 to 100km. Or swap out the scripts and I can track frigates orbiting me down to under 10km at which point my smartbombs take over. I have no need for drones other than salvagers and a few ecm just in case.
but in high sec smartbobms are a big no no "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country
8366
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:32:00 -
[6866] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:baltec1 wrote:I can tank anoms with just two lows and my blasters go out to 90 to 100km. Hm, unless you're using some crazy officer stuff, I don't believe you can reliably hit at that range. During my recent tests even within falloff I had noticeable amount of misses against battleships. Though admittedly the overall dps was still nice.
3x computers in the mids all t2 everything. The dps at these extream ranges will only worry frigates but once down to 50km the firepower is rather good. |

King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
364
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:55:00 -
[6867] - Quote
I've run around 6 or so lvl5's in the revised paladin SiSi, I'm happy with the results. Hop into the mission, immediately skip off 100km, bastion a cycle then skip off another 100km so I'm out of neut tower range (200km). At that point I just bastion till I'm done or nearly done with that room and come back to move to the next if needed.
While in neut tower range I'm running a cap booster but I find I only use around 5-10 charges in the initial fight, once at range I can perma run the tachyons and pulse the single T2 LAR as needed to keep the ship up without using cap boosters. This is single client, no links. Hell, I wasn't even running any sort of tanking implants, just gunnery hardwirings.
The vargur is more problematic. It has a better tank theoretically but the weapon range is so crap you end up just having to sit in the middle of it all the time. End result is you don't out range most enemies and you're stuck dealing with those damned neut towers all day. The vargur, in my opinion, is not an efficient lvl5 runner with either 1400mm arty's or 800mm AC's. On the other hand, in far less punishing (and generally shorter ranged) lvl4 missions, I suspect the vargur maybe the better ship as simply sitting in the middle of it isn't so suicidal. I also suspect the vargur would fair better in pvp.
Looking forwards to trying out the kronos later today, have one of my alts training up the high energy physics skill right now. Only a few hours left and that toon has all the other requirements. Should be very similar to the paladin I think. That toon can also fly a golem but an initial look at that didn't impress. With torps it just doesn't have the range much like the vargur. My alt has crap cruise skills so can't give that a fair test. The Troll is trolling. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8367
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:58:00 -
[6868] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:It works and works well. You should try them, they are much better than the old ones. While I confess that I don't entirely have much of a grasp on how to interpret a ship's inertia modifier, the Vargur looks like it accelerates better and is more agile than the Tempest it was created from. Not only that, but it has more EHP and better cap as well. No complaints on hull stats here. I can tank anoms with just two lows and my blasters go out to 90 to 100km. Or swap out the scripts and I can track frigates orbiting me down to under 10km at which point my smartbombs take over. I have no need for drones other than salvagers and a few ecm just in case. but in high sec smartbobms are a big no no
Just blast them! |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
894
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:04:00 -
[6869] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
but in high sec smartbobms are a big no no
Smartbombs in highsec are only a problem if you hit something you shouldn't. Usually this is another player. For the most part, it seems to me that LCOs and space-rocks don't have any legal rights and so smartbomb attacks against them are not responded to by CONCORD.
I may need to test this theory, however. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1215
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:45:00 -
[6870] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
but in high sec smartbobms are a big no no
Smartbombs in highsec are only a problem if you hit something you shouldn't. Usually this is another player. For the most part, it seems to me that LCOs and space-rocks don't have any legal rights and so smartbomb attacks against them are not responded to by CONCORD. I may need to test this theory, however.
I'm pretty sure they removed the whole CONCORD protecting space rocks and LCO/Accel gates some time ago.
You can still get dicked over by a cloaked ship when you fire a SB, but pulsing it and checking d-scan should keep you in the clear. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
404
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:04:00 -
[6871] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:You can still get dicked over by a cloaked ship when you fire a SB, but pulsing it and checking d-scan should keep you in the clear. Or drones (unless they changed that). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:41:00 -
[6872] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:Welome to Maurauder Online, where we will just tank you into oblivion  try that when a curse finds you..... Cap boosters are cool. see? your mind is working only for PVP view, what ppl are talking about above either you dont read or just ignore cos of it is not about PVP.. wildcard slots are for only support in PVE, like TC, TP, SeBo etc.. really still not sure why are you here? you dont add anything for marauder's sake or i missed it. im not sure there is a position in goons rank for forum-filler (i didnt want use trolling atm) This is a PVP game. PERIOD! Face it! Nothign in this game is ONLY for PVE. That is exact reason why marauders are being changed!
what a stupid view.. your perspective is wrong, it is an economy based pvp game, imho.. you cant do any **** without isk in this game.. make money, fit ships, train skills for purpose then get in action.. or you are the one who just watched "50 rookieships vs X" on youtube and jumped in? also how goons won fountain war earlier and easier than they expected..
and what a stupid reason for marauder's changing you pointed.. marauders changing for pvp but still will have a moronic tractor bonus that is complately useless in pvp.. you are ruining everything, cos you have no idea how it works, you seem just want to screw "mostly PVE with some PVP" players(u can call them casual) of fun in this game..
you want a really good addition to pvp, there are Black OP the twin sisters of Marauders,but no!?! thats the proof of your real faces i mention above.. also NOTHING in this game for only PVP, look at NULL(0.0) ally/corp adverts(same for WH folks).. they are there for rich resources and making isk faster than hisec.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:57:00 -
[6873] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE? You really should, they're awesome. What on earth possibly for? I do... though, with bastion, I haven't had to use it... I know my luck though, and once I drop it is when I'll need it. Oh, and I use a pith x XL shield booster.. That's why...
it is situational for me to use cap booster/cap battery-semi conductor-charger on my fittings..
and i too use a PITH XL shield booster on my current MJD RNI.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:38:00 -
[6874] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE? You really should, they're awesome. What on earth possibly for? I do... though, with bastion, I haven't had to use it... I know my luck though, and once I drop it is when I'll need it. Oh, and I use a pith x XL shield booster.. That's why... it is situational for me to use cap booster/cap battery-semi conductor-charger on my fittings.. and i too use a PITH XL shield booster on my current MJD RNI..
Yeah, but RNI has much better cap AND cap recharge. It has more EHP, smaller sig, higher mobility. Point is, RNI is a much better ship all around. However, bastion does give Golem some much needed love to make it a valid option. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:13:00 -
[6875] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You mean you don't fit a cap booster in PvE? You really should, they're awesome. What on earth possibly for? I do... though, with bastion, I haven't had to use it... I know my luck though, and once I drop it is when I'll need it. Oh, and I use a pith x XL shield booster.. That's why... it is situational for me to use cap booster/cap battery-semi conductor-charger on my fittings.. and i too use a PITH XL shield booster on my current MJD RNI.. Yeah, but RNI has much better cap AND cap recharge. It has more EHP, smaller sig, higher mobility. Point is, RNI is a much better ship all around. However, bastion does give Golem some much needed love to make it a valid option.
so its same like "paladin vs navpoc".. but do you think bastion is a module like cap boosters, tractor beams, player should have chosen it to use on their ships? or it is a permanent module you have to use it regardless of your choice? it is the problem here.. to fix "marauders' hull weakness against navy versions of same hulls" there are many simple ways (e.g. improving/revamping hulls and bonuses for their roles)
bastion module's primary usage is hisec Player Owned Structure bashing(SOLO prolly) i couldnt see anything else when i look at its benefits.. e.g. "EWAR immunity" and also u can read first page posts "mini-DREAD".. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
615
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:42:00 -
[6876] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:
so its same like "paladin vs navpoc".. but do you think bastion is a module like cap boosters, tractor beams, player should have chosen it to use on their ships? or it is a permanent module you have to use it regardless of your choice? it is the problem here.. to fix "marauders' hull weakness against navy versions of same hulls" there are many simple ways (e.g. improving/revamping hulls and bonuses for their roles)
bastion module's primary usage is hisec Player Owned Structure bashing(SOLO prolly) i couldnt see anything else when i look at its benefits.. e.g. "EWAR immunity" and also u can read first page posts "mini-DREAD"..
If you'd have read any of my older posts you would see that even though I love bastion, I don't think it needed anything but pure buffs to the hull and then maybe give bastion some fitting penalties to ensure people aren't running around with a ship that has two alternate capabilities that could be changed with a click. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:56:00 -
[6877] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
so its same like "paladin vs navpoc".. but do you think bastion is a module like cap boosters, tractor beams, player should have chosen it to use on their ships? or it is a permanent module you have to use it regardless of your choice? it is the problem here.. to fix "marauders' hull weakness against navy versions of same hulls" there are many simple ways (e.g. improving/revamping hulls and bonuses for their roles)
bastion module's primary usage is hisec Player Owned Structure bashing(SOLO prolly) i couldnt see anything else when i look at its benefits.. e.g. "EWAR immunity" and also u can read first page posts "mini-DREAD"..
If you'd have read any of my older posts you would see that even though I love bastion, I don't think it needed anything but pure buffs to the hull and then maybe give bastion some fitting penalties to ensure people aren't running around with a ship that has two alternate capabilities that could be changed with a click.
well said.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Stray Denton
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:13:00 -
[6878] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Stray Denton wrote:If they wanted to make the marauders more interesting why not give the bastion module dual modes...
Bastion DPS mode : range and damage bonus, ship is stationary and unable to mjd in this mode, tank standard -20%
Bastion Off mode : everything goes back to standard marauder
Bastion Tank mode : Tank bonus, ship velocity normal, bonus to mjd, standard dps, damage and range reduced by 20%
30 secs to change between on and off and unable to go from tank to dps or vice versa without switching off first.
Just a thought that popped into my head and not sure it would make the changes any better, I'm sure someone will kindly point out the flaws, but I do think it's a bit more interesting than the current tortoise concept. It's already been proposed by other players numerous times (though, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't read through the nearly 7000 posts this thread already has). Don't really see any further point in proposing alternatives to the current bastion mod tbh. CCP didn't really seem interested in the twin bastion/scripted bastion idea before, no reason to think they would suddenly change their mind now. Maybe once things go live, that might change, though I doubt it.
I have read some posts but no not all 7000 just a few after each update, I guessed that someone must have mentioned it before, anyway it's a shame that they are sticking to the original changes, personally I don't think it changes much but the play style slightly which of course is going to upset those that enjoy how the current marauders work, however change is as good as a holiday, so keeping an open mind until I can test the changes myself. |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:31:00 -
[6879] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote: so its same like "paladin vs navpoc".. but do you think bastion is a module like cap boosters, tractor beams, player should have chosen it to use on their ships? or it is a permanent module you have to use it regardless of your choice? it is the problem here.. to fix "marauders' hull weakness against navy versions of same hulls" there are many simple ways (e.g. improving/revamping hulls and bonuses for their roles)
bastion module's primary usage is hisec Player Owned Structure bashing(SOLO prolly) i couldnt see anything else when i look at its benefits.. e.g. "EWAR immunity" and also u can read first page posts "mini-DREAD"..
They'll be used for ratting against Guristas (because seriously, **** ECM!!!) and bashing POSs, not POCOs.
There's no reason to use anything as expensive as a Marauder on something that doesn't have innate defenses, unlike a POS which is, at least in highsec, almost always fit up with as much ECM as the POS's CPU allows.
CCP, buff POS guns already! And maybe bring POS ECM down on non-racial jam strength because 15 off racial is ridiculous, especially when there's 30 of them. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 21:13:00 -
[6880] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote: so its same like "paladin vs navpoc".. but do you think bastion is a module like cap boosters, tractor beams, player should have chosen it to use on their ships? or it is a permanent module you have to use it regardless of your choice? it is the problem here.. to fix "marauders' hull weakness against navy versions of same hulls" there are many simple ways (e.g. improving/revamping hulls and bonuses for their roles)
bastion module's primary usage is hisec Player Owned Structure bashing(SOLO prolly) i couldnt see anything else when i look at its benefits.. e.g. "EWAR immunity" and also u can read first page posts "mini-DREAD"..
They'll be used for ratting against Guristas (because seriously, **** ECM!!!) and bashing POSs, not POCOs. There's no reason to use anything as expensive as a Marauder on something that doesn't have innate defenses, unlike a POS which is, at least in highsec, almost always fit up with as much ECM as the POS's CPU allows. CCP, buff POS guns already! And maybe bring POS ECM down on non-racial jam strength because 15 off racial is ridiculous, especially when there's 30 of them.
POSs in high sec are already hard enough to destroy without a large fleet. Last thing we need to do is make them untankable when they're auto targeting. |
|

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 21:23:00 -
[6881] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote: so its same like "paladin vs navpoc".. but do you think bastion is a module like cap boosters, tractor beams, player should have chosen it to use on their ships? or it is a permanent module you have to use it regardless of your choice? it is the problem here.. to fix "marauders' hull weakness against navy versions of same hulls" there are many simple ways (e.g. improving/revamping hulls and bonuses for their roles)
bastion module's primary usage is hisec Player Owned Structure bashing(SOLO prolly) i couldnt see anything else when i look at its benefits.. e.g. "EWAR immunity" and also u can read first page posts "mini-DREAD"..
They'll be used for ratting against Guristas (because seriously, **** ECM!!!) and bashing POSs, not POCOs. There's no reason to use anything as expensive as a Marauder on something that doesn't have innate defenses, unlike a POS which is, at least in highsec, almost always fit up with as much ECM as the POS's CPU allows. CCP, buff POS guns already! And maybe bring POS ECM down on non-racial jam strength because 15 off racial is ridiculous, especially when there's 30 of them. POSs in high sec are already hard enough to destroy without a large fleet. Last thing we need to do is make them untankable when they're auto targeting.
Anyone who's trying to kill a POS without a large fleet... i feel bad for you because you'll be there for several hours.
The problem is that in lowsec, nullsec, and WSpace, a POS can't even kill a cruiser. With POS gunners. But that's a mere tangent, Marauders will be useful in bashing Dickstar POSs when the odds of getting a fight are minimal (ie. bashing carebear research towers) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 05:37:00 -
[6882] - Quote
I've been testing 2 Paladins on Sisi.
First one, T2 tachyons and a Core B LAR plus MJD. Second one, T2 pulses and a Corpus A LAR plus MWD. Differences are to help keep cap somewhat stable and/or base mobility on gun systems (Aurora can hit up to 253km optimal while Scorch can hit up to 96km optimal, both while Bastioned)
Results show that on most sites, the new Paladin beats hands down, the TQ Paladin. Having Scorch hit at 96km with 901 DPS basically beats tachyons hands down. I found myself finishing sites rather quickly with the pulse mwd fit, and only using the tachs on The Blockade or Massive Attack (both against Sansha).
I'm pretty happy with the new Paladin, especially considering how they lost weight (both on stats and model, the fat apoc does not fit such an elegant lady). I'm using 2 ANPs and Bastion as tank, which is lesser than that of my Vargur, but I haven't had issues at all with the tank, and the fact that I'm nowhere near stable. Silencing the guns for a while allow the implants and the IN Power Relay to recharge my cap fast enough while keeping the LAR running.
Overall, I'm happy with the new Paladin. The Vargur has me somewhat disappointed still, but I think I can live with it (since 1400s while never get redone and fixed, and ACs will still suck DPS wise vs. pulses, especially with that optimal hull bonus). The cap per level bonus is still a waste, but I see that having tracking on top would be too much. As it is, I'm reaching 1300 dps at 32km with Conflag with my fit, setup and skills, while keeping a decent tank while in bastion. In short, good job CCP on the Paladin alone. I haven't tested Kronos nor Golem though. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Isinero
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 08:16:00 -
[6883] - Quote
I like the current version of bastion and I like paladin in this third update. I believe that maybe introduction some "attack bastion mode" could be fine but please leave also this version like it it. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 09:35:00 -
[6884] - Quote
Just a side note, if anyone is willing to throw some constructive criticism my way, isn't the concept of adding a new, really weird arsed module in normal slots, that only works on 4 hulls in the entire game, and seems also to have a rather razor thin usage line a little outside of the current EVE mechanics?
I'm not saying it's good or bad atm, It just sort of "feels" wrong. Maybe Adding a single T3 "class" slot that can either contain a Bastion module or not, that later could maybe-sorta-kinda maybe contain another T3 style module would have seen more logical ... or is it just me?
The T3 slots mechanics were already in place, and work fine with the current T3 configurations ... did anyone read why it might have been made a high slot? I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

B'atou
The forgotten Soldiers
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 10:50:00 -
[6885] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Just a side note, if anyone is willing to throw some constructive criticism my way, isn't the concept of adding a new, really weird arsed module in normal slots, that only works on 4 hulls in the entire game, and seems also to have a rather razor thin usage line a little outside of the current EVE mechanics?
I'm not saying it's good or bad atm, It just sort of "feels" wrong. Maybe Adding a single T3 "class" slot that can either contain a Bastion module or not, that later could maybe-sorta-kinda maybe contain another T3 style module would have seen more logical ... or is it just me?
The T3 slots mechanics were already in place, and work fine with the current T3 configurations ... did anyone read why it might have been made a high slot? I think it's perfect in line with the siege and trage mode. These are also for only 4 hulls each. T3 is a whole different story for which they would have to introduce a complete new hull. But i kinda like the idea of T3 Battleships
------------------------------------------- Every winner needs a looser, only idiots need a leader! |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 11:17:00 -
[6886] - Quote
B'atou wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Just a side note, if anyone is willing to throw some constructive criticism my way, isn't the concept of adding a new, really weird arsed module in normal slots, that only works on 4 hulls in the entire game, and seems also to have a rather razor thin usage line a little outside of the current EVE mechanics?
I'm not saying it's good or bad atm, It just sort of "feels" wrong. Maybe Adding a single T3 "class" slot that can either contain a Bastion module or not, that later could maybe-sorta-kinda maybe contain another T3 style module would have seen more logical ... or is it just me?
The T3 slots mechanics were already in place, and work fine with the current T3 configurations ... did anyone read why it might have been made a high slot? I think it's perfect in line with the siege and trage mode. These are also for only 4 hulls each. T3 is a whole different story for which they would have to introduce a complete new hull. But i kinda like the idea of T3 Battleships
Would'nt T3 Battleships a complete ass to balance? I thought CCP was having merry hell with the cruisers already?
The only reason I mentioned adding a T3 type slot was basically because by making it a high slot they also had to look at the fact that now that high slot can also be used to mount other things, while a T3 type slot would not change the hull as much. But yea, I still don't grasp changes to hulls well yet, unlike a lot of others that predict what min-maxing may cause.
I guess it would be weird when people want to fly Marauders without Bastion, and have an empty T3 slot, while now you cant undock without all the T3 slots full.
... maybe CCP could just add another T3 Marauder sub that activates full Gundam mode so we can go melee, using the same mechanics as the QWOP game. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:22:00 -
[6887] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:I've been testing 2 Paladins on Sisi.
First one, T2 tachyons and a Core B LAR plus MJD. Second one, T2 pulses and a Corpus A LAR plus MWD. Differences are to help keep cap somewhat stable and/or base mobility on gun systems (Aurora can hit up to 253km optimal while Scorch can hit up to 96km optimal, both while Bastioned)
Results show that on most sites, the new Paladin beats hands down, the TQ Paladin. Having Scorch hit at 96km with 901 DPS basically beats tachyons hands down. I found myself finishing sites rather quickly with the pulse mwd fit, and only using the tachs on The Blockade or Massive Attack (both against Sansha).
I'm pretty happy with the new Paladin, especially considering how they lost weight (both on stats and model, the fat apoc does not fit such an elegant lady). I'm using 2 ANPs and Bastion as tank, which is lesser than that of my Vargur, but I haven't had issues at all with the tank, and the fact that I'm nowhere near stable. Silencing the guns for a while allow the implants and the IN Power Relay to recharge my cap fast enough while keeping the LAR running.
Overall, I'm happy with the new Paladin. The Vargur has me somewhat disappointed still, but I think I can live with it (since 1400s while never get redone and fixed, and ACs will still suck DPS wise vs. pulses, especially with that optimal hull bonus). The cap per level bonus is still a waste, but I see that having tracking on top would be too much. As it is, I'm reaching 1300 dps at 32km with Conflag with my fit, setup and skills, while keeping a decent tank while in bastion. In short, good job CCP on the Paladin alone. I haven't tested Kronos nor Golem though.
thanks for sharing your test notes, can you please tell me there is any usage of marauders without bastion module? they are still better than current? do they seem more "balanced" or "fixed" now?
vargur's bonus should have been "optimal and falloff", it wont break balance with low side effect, imho.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:25:00 -
[6888] - Quote
After I've been playing with Kronos and Vargur a lot on Sisi during the weekend, I can say that they are really fun ships to fly (however, I can't fly Marauders on TQ so I'm not qualified to say whether they were better before the changes or not - I can only say that I'm pleased that the drone bay wasn't nerfed as it was initially planned). And while the Bastion module can be a double-edged sword (or even a certain death if there's a Dread on grid), it certainly can be a life saver in some situations. My only gripe is the lack of T2 Bastion module (which would naturally require High Energy Physics V, but give 20% better bonuses - at least to optimal, falloff and missile velocity, much continuing the spirit T2 Siege and Triage modules). I also went WTF after trying the Bastion on the undock and being unable to dock after it expired due to weapons timer but I suppose that makes sense since people would turn it on when they want to deaggress in range of gates/stations. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
404
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 14:47:00 -
[6889] - Quote
So out of the new Marauders, which seem to fare the best with the changes? Golem and Paladin, Kronos then Vargur? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 14:48:00 -
[6890] - Quote
I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:20:00 -
[6891] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur
i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:47:00 -
[6892] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.
i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.
please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:47:00 -
[6893] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.
We've been getting power creep with weapon systems for a long time.
Lasers sucked in comparison, they got buffed. Hybrids were then the sucky ones, they got buffed. Missiles were then op/crappy, they got buffed/nerfed. Now everyone thinks projectiles underperform... Wonder what's gonna happen.
CCP just needs to take all the weapon systems and revamp them all at once.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:49:00 -
[6894] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Mer88 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions. i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.
Except, the problem is bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps. That means you'll have the highest dps, and the highest tank... On top of the longest range of any other sub cap... On top of ewar immunity... |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:51:00 -
[6895] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Mer88 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions. i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc. Except, the problem is bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps. That means you'll have the highest dps, and the highest tank... On top of the longest range of any other sub cap... On top of ewar immunity... perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
and especially for shield, it doesnt free up any slots. i guess you can get rid of the damage control...but otherwise nothing. and mids are just damage application which it will have plenty of in bastion mode. So there isnt much if any extra damage, esp compared to pirate |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:53:00 -
[6896] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more viable now.... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:57:00 -
[6897] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....
hmm the marauder outside bastion is about the same as current marauder on TQ. Bastion made it seems useless since you will fit way less tank in sisi compare to TQ so it made marauder outside bastion weak.. the only nerf is they got speed reduction. but i noticed my golem has more shield hitpoints compare to TQ. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:59:00 -
[6898] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....
ive given up on bastion mode, ok so maybe some people will have a use for it, and thats fine for them. I for one, and a lot of people...are not interested in bastion mode.
I just request that non-bastion mode is balanced on its own as if bastion didnt exist. Give them good fitting, and comparable dps, or at least proper resists. I liked it when they took away the self rep bonus from the hull - i say just make bastion rep that more powerful while removing the hull bonus, and give the hull proper resists and reduce the resist bonus on bastion
then bastion mode remains unchanged, while non-bastion is usable for people who want to use it (esp people who trained for this ship, or want to train for it, but dont have a need for the ABSURDLY 'niche' role (which i still cant find) for the bastion mode) |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:59:00 -
[6899] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now.... hmm the marauder outside bastion is about the same as current marauder on TQ. Bastion made it seems useless since you will fit way less tank in sisi compare to TQ so it made marauder outside bastion weak.. the only nerf is they got speed reduction. but i noticed my golem has more shield hitpoints compare to TQ.
They lost cap and recharge. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 16:02:00 -
[6900] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mer88 wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now.... hmm the marauder outside bastion is about the same as current marauder on TQ. Bastion made it seems useless since you will fit way less tank in sisi compare to TQ so it made marauder outside bastion weak.. the only nerf is they got speed reduction. but i noticed my golem has more shield hitpoints compare to TQ. They lost cap and recharge.
yeah its about the same and thats good, but the marauder needed to be balanced - bastion doesnt balance it.
Just a little tiny nudge in the direction of making non-bastion more capable of what it was doing before, like add a salvage bonus for pve, or allow it to compete with pirate for incursions :D |
|

Vrenth
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
85
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 16:22:00 -
[6901] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now.... ive given up on bastion mode, ok so maybe some people will have a use for it, and thats fine for them. I for one, and a lot of people...are not interested in bastion mode. I just request that non-bastion mode is balanced on its own as if bastion didnt exist. Give them good fitting, and comparable dps, or at least proper resists. I liked it when they took away the self rep bonus from the hull - i say just make bastion rep that more powerful while removing the hull bonus, and give the hull proper resists and reduce the resist bonus on bastion then bastion mode remains unchanged, while non-bastion is usable for people who want to use it (esp people who trained for this ship, or want to train for it, but dont have a need for the ABSURDLY 'niche' role (which i still cant find) for the bastion mode)
They based their redesign and bonuses around bastion. You are asking them essentially to make a dread useful without siege. If you are flying a marauder now instead of a pirate BS in missions, you are doing it wrong. With these MJD/tanking bonuses, it opens alot more strategy to them that makes them more viable than pirate BS. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 16:44:00 -
[6902] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.
Nah rails do around 11.5% more dmg within optimal, have a better optimal, have less overkill, better tracking, and aren't penalized as harshly for missing.
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 17:09:00 -
[6903] - Quote
Vrenth wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode
I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now.... ive given up on bastion mode, ok so maybe some people will have a use for it, and thats fine for them. I for one, and a lot of people...are not interested in bastion mode. I just request that non-bastion mode is balanced on its own as if bastion didnt exist. Give them good fitting, and comparable dps, or at least proper resists. I liked it when they took away the self rep bonus from the hull - i say just make bastion rep that more powerful while removing the hull bonus, and give the hull proper resists and reduce the resist bonus on bastion then bastion mode remains unchanged, while non-bastion is usable for people who want to use it (esp people who trained for this ship, or want to train for it, but dont have a need for the ABSURDLY 'niche' role (which i still cant find) for the bastion mode) They based their redesign and bonuses around bastion. You are asking them essentially to make a dread useful without siege. If you are flying a marauder now instead of a pirate BS in missions, you are doing it wrong. With these MJD/tanking bonuses, it opens alot more strategy to them that makes them more viable than pirate BS. well this ship existed before it had a 'siege' mode, so i dont see why its non-bastion mode cant have a use. And the point i was trying to make was that the marauder was supposed to be better in missions, but in fact was not, so it just needs a little tweaking to give it that niche once again - without changing bastion for people who want bastion.
theres no reason that bastion and nonbastion cant each have their own uses - similar to how t3s can through fitting do just about anything, marauders could focus on their specialty of pve through 2 different modes....
or even just focus on 2 different tanking modes, like giving high resists (and maybe even high buffer) in non-bastion mode, then selfrep (and maybe lower buffer or not-enhanced resists) in bastion mode
i guess i just dont like bastion so i want non-bastion to have a use of some kind so i can have an excuse to use the ship, as i both have it trained, and i want to continue to train it, because i like the idea of this difficult to obtain ship. I want something to continue to work towards |

OmarNu Lakshmit
UNION CONFIRMED
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 17:13:00 -
[6904] - Quote
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
From personal mission running experience I would suggest to give Marauders 200% bonus to range of tractor beams, because often 48km's not enough to tractor cans with mission items.....
Hope many fellows - missions runners - agree with me :D |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 17:16:00 -
[6905] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: [....]I'm using 2 ANPs and Bastion as tank, [....] Dude, you've got me thinking. The 100% bonus to active reps means that in fact with bastion it's quite feasible to cross tank marauders: shield on Kronos and Paladin, armor on Vargur and Golem. I sense a disturbance in The Force... |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 17:47:00 -
[6906] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: .. bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps. That means you'll have the highest dps, and the highest tank... On top of the longest range of any other sub cap... On top of ewar immunity...
Just a few comments on this. Assuming we toss all other ships out the window for a moment and just compare marauders to each other.
Quote: bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps
comparing TQ to rubicon vargur
the best i have been able to do on the vargur is about 3-4% ~36dps dps increase(while stationary on a target around 40KM away) moving about 2KM makes up this difference considering mobility changes bastion will definitely lower total potential dps in the majority of lvl 4 mission situations Not to mention the 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps and that this is at no mobility while bastion is active....
outside of bastion, this is about a 5 point dps difference, and an overall nerf considering mobility changes
If I choose to use bastion, i am nerfed because I am stationary. If I choose not to use bastion in a class that has had soo many nerfs to try to force it's use, I miss out because of those changes (like mobility and bandwidth).
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 18:00:00 -
[6907] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.
please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"
I dont know about pushing raw dps up to match pirates necessarily, but at least give them better raw dmg potential than t1 pls and thx. esp the kronos and vargur... substantial room for dmg increase before stepping on pirate toes.
I would support an out of bastion mode style of awesomeness, take my extra utility high, and let the penalties of bastion be tied to the bastion module, but ppl have been shouting about it til blue in the face. Sadly, I dont think it is going to happen |

My Little Pyongyang
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 18:20:00 -
[6908] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Mer88 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.
I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.
In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:
= 1400 fits = 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
= AC fits = The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.
= Suggestions = Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:
Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).
Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)
Add additional falloff the vargur hull.
Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur
Add additional turret dps to the vargur i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type. with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions. Nah rails do around 11.5% more dps within optimal, have a better optimal, have less overkill, better tracking, and aren't penalized as harshly for missing.
The above is mostly accurate, however 11.5% does not make the artillery less viable vs rails unless you are shooting guristas or serpentis. Artillery will do more dps against angels and should be within 5% of sansha and blood raiders because of selectable damage types. The tracking curves are close enough that it doesn't matter and artillery projection is a little better over the curve, but you can use uranium to help offset that.
The graphs below are built with known rubicon data used in EFT, all below are subject to change:
Red : Kronos Blue : Vargur
No transversal: http://i.imgur.com/uEp5aJs.jpg
Transversal: http://i.imgur.com/rcQ7V3o.jpg
Both are 5 damage mod builds, with identical tracking mods (1 TE, 1 SS TC), though the kronos' tank is significantly worse than the vargur's, however both are well within acceptable levels for missions. The kronos does have the ambit extension over the vargur but it's trivial.
[Vargur, Arty] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Large Micro Jump Drive Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Bastion Module I 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ancillary Current Router I
[Kronos, Rails] Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Bastion Module I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Yes these builds could be blinged more, yes they could go without the cap booster but the gains from another tracking computer are minimal. They could also roll without XYZ but I built them similar to my MWD machariel setup and I also wanted to get an MJD on there somehow because ship bonuses etc. They dps about as hard as you can, and they push it almost as far as you can, another tracking computer brings the 100km dps of the vargur from 712 to 667. It's not trivial but I'd prefer the cap booster.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3792003#post3792003 additional reading on the viability of artillery vargur. |

Strili
Thirtyplus Spaceship Samurai
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 18:35:00 -
[6909] - Quote
I've been reading these changes and people's opinions about the subject quite closely. It seems most people really love their marauders. It takes time to get into a badass, angry looking ship like they are. I agree that perhaps outside of "bastion" mode they are not exactly shiny examples of dps. People are suggesting stuff will get done less effeciently, even in missions where it's geared toward. Hey, all the power to you to express your opinion.
As far as the changes, I like them. Will they be PvP friendly....eh...there are some real draw backs because of how you pretty much have to play with a cookie cutter build. But for PvE, this thing will still be great.
For those of you who suggest it will take a long time in lvl 4's, have you used a MJD very much? I played around with it alot when they first came out on a domi, just to jump around and have a good time. I put it on a vindi just for the lols to see what would happen when I stormed into a group and they all wet themselves.
As for getting gate to gate--Think of it in Triangles. You should be able to jump twice and arrive at you destination in a very short amount of time. It takes some getting used to (the angles of direction) and what not. A-square + B-square = C-square. If the gate/destination is 50 KM away you just gotta jump at a 45degree angle compared to the gate. Then jump 45 back to the game. Bam. Even if there is no equation for it, you should be able to eyeball the triangle eventually. In a marauder you can make that 50km trip in just over 1 min and land on target.
Just another idea how to get this idea outside the box and into a real use.
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:14:00 -
[6910] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Serge SC wrote: [....]I'm using 2 ANPs and Bastion as tank, [....] Dude, you've got me thinking. The 100% bonus to active reps means that in fact with bastion it's quite feasible to cross tank marauders: shield on Kronos and Paladin, armor on Vargur and Golem. I sense a disturbance in The Force... Well, it is doable.
Shield paladin:
MJD+Deadspace Medium Shield Booster+Deadspace Invul+Tracking Comp
Then lows can be DCU+4 Heat Sinks and 2 TEs.
1 weapon rig (collision accelerator) and 1 LCDFE or EM rig for omni tank (both T2)
You're all set. Grats, you are going against the "rules". (= Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:40:00 -
[6911] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Battle Cube wrote: i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.
please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"
I dont know about pushing raw dps up to match pirates necessarily, but at least give them better raw dmg potential than t1 pls and thx. esp the kronos and vargur... substantial room for dmg increase before stepping on pirate toes. I would support an out of bastion mode style of awesomeness, take my extra utility high, and let the penalties of bastion be tied to the bastion module, but ppl have been shouting about it til blue in the face. Sadly, I dont think it is going to happen
even just boosting out of bastion tank via resists to make it a tanky low dps ship outside of bastion....would be better than it is currently.
I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement.
And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep.
but even though this all makes sense, and this ship requires so much to fly, im quite sure they will continue to give it this... "role", this "niche", and it will be nearly NEVER used in the game.
maybe it will be in some alliance tournaments or some bullshit
goddamnit i hate this new marauder design |

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:06:00 -
[6912] - Quote
After some other playtime with my Vargur i am absolutely sure that a 1400 setup is no use for lvl 4. The amount of small ships is reducing ISK/hour a lot. It might be okay for forsaken hubs in 0.0.
My favorite fitting right now is:
[Vargur, Best ISK] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Small Tractor Beam II Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Bastion
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Bouncer II x2 Warrior II x5
The heavy cap booster is not for tank, it is for the mwd. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:11:00 -
[6913] - Quote
My Little Pyongyang wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: ... 1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice. ... Nah rails do around 11.5% more dps within optimal, have a better optimal, have less overkill, better tracking, and aren't penalized as harshly for missing.
The above is mostly accurate, however 11.5% does not make the artillery less viable vs rails unless you are shooting guristas or serpentis. Artillery will do more dps against angels and should be within 5% of sansha and blood raiders because of selectable damage types. The tracking curves are close enough that it doesn't matter and artillery projection is a little better over the curve, but you can use uranium to help offset that. The graphs below are built with known rubicon data used in EFT, all below are subject to change: Red : Kronos Blue : Vargur No transversal: http://i.imgur.com/uEp5aJs.jpgTransversal: http://i.imgur.com/rcQ7V3o.jpg... Just would like to point out that the Kronos should have 0 trouble staying closer than 90km to a target. It should also not have any trouble staying within the 25km to 65km range where it is doing approx 11.5% better... heck the Mach's turrent dps is only 9.5 better than the vargur's but its way better for straight bounty farming (to be fair it does get 2 more sentry drones on top, additional ~120dps with garde IIs).
(off topic: where are you getting the figures on the impact of dmg types? I cant seem to find a good source on the interwebs and would very much like to find more applications for hail ammo. ex: raw dmg would be higher on targets closer than like 20km or so, but what is that range in effective dps vs serpentis?)
My Little Pyongyang wrote: Yes these builds could be blinged more, yes they could go without the cap booster but the gains from another tracking computer are minimal. They could also roll without XYZ but I built them similar to my MWD machariel setup and I also wanted to get an MJD on there somehow because ship bonuses etc. They dps about as hard as you can, and they push it almost as far as you can, another tracking computer brings the 100km dps of the vargur from 712 to 667. It's not trivial but I'd prefer the cap booster....
No question that artys can clear missions, I just see no point in using them:
[Rubicon Vargur] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer x4 Tracking Enhancer II
TC / dual prop / whatever Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer x2
800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF ammo x4 Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II x3
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
With this setup (compared to your arty fit): * more dmg to any target closer than 48KM (easy to stay within 48KM esp with dual prop MJD) * are within the 48KM tractor range for looting * much higher dmg potential (1163 vs 819, 42%) * have much better tracking * much less overkill * usually within unmodified drone control range * gardes * hail ammo on certain missions
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:12:00 -
[6914] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Battle Cube wrote: i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.
please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"
I dont know about pushing raw dps up to match pirates necessarily, but at least give them better raw dmg potential than t1 pls and thx. esp the kronos and vargur... substantial room for dmg increase before stepping on pirate toes. I would support an out of bastion mode style of awesomeness, take my extra utility high, and let the penalties of bastion be tied to the bastion module, but ppl have been shouting about it til blue in the face. Sadly, I dont think it is going to happen even just boosting out of bastion tank via resists to make it a tanky low dps ship outside of bastion....would be better than it is currently. I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement. And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep. but even though this all makes sense, and this ship requires so much to fly, im quite sure they will continue to give it this... "role", this "niche", and it will be nearly NEVER used in the game. maybe it will be in some alliance tournaments or some bullshit goddamnit i hate this new marauder design alternatively its manufacturing could be changed so that it becomes dirt cheap, that might balance it, but they sure arent going to do that.
Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep. In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction. Not buff marauder.
To the rest of your comment. The Golem was my dream ship back in the day as a newbie when I scanned down an older player who was blasting away at a lvl 5 mission with 3 cruise golem. From that day my goal was to train into a golem. I eventually got there, with some detours on the way to get into an Isk boat here and there. Once I had finally trained and bought a golem, I took it out for a spin. At the time I was in gallente space. The very first mission I flew, I was unable to target past 10km... It was hell. I later joined a corp in caldari space, thinking that was the area the golem was intended for. I soon realized that I was spending half my missions being perma jammed.
Pretty shortly after, I traded the golem straight up for a tengu. The tengu outperformed by leaps and bounds. Now, this had a bit to do with the OP tengu and heavy missiles, but it out performed by so much that it was obvious the golem was broken.
The Golem with bastion is exactly what I thought I was seeing all those years ago when I scammed down that player and his alts. This ship is now performing in every bit of the manner that I had hoped it would. I no longer have to watch aggroes or triggers, I can't be stopped from firing, the tank is damn near unbreakable in lvl 4 missions, the dps is significant enough to make a difference, it can travel 100km in a min 15 seconds or so. The only thing it doesn't have going for it is tractor range.
All in all, I would say I'm quite satisfied, and apart from the tractors, it's exactly what I want in a pve boat... Who knows, maybe I'll try to get into a corp with lvl 5 missions. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
404
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:20:00 -
[6915] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep. In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction. Not buff marauder. Pirate, Faction and Tengu... three horsemen of the apocalypse right there. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

mostro
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:21:00 -
[6916] - Quote
I cannot understand any of the Logic in this garbage, all I can think is that you are deep in the market selling pirate BS's
Anyone want to buy a Varg, looks like they ruined it and I need a Machariel |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
118
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:28:00 -
[6917] - Quote
mostro wrote:I cannot understand any of the Logic in this garbage, all I can think is that you are deep in the market selling pirate BS's Yeah, the art of reading with comprehension is dying.
Quote:Anyone want to buy a Varg, looks like they ruined it and I need a Machariel Contract it to me anywhere in hisec. Since the ship is worthless to you now, hope 1 million is enough for your trouble? |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
47
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:30:00 -
[6918] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep. In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction. Not buff marauder.
here let me help you http://lmgtfy.com/?q=power+creep
a dmg increase doesnt necessarily mean power creep |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
405
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:32:00 -
[6919] - Quote
mostro wrote:Anyone want to buy a Varg, looks like they ruined it and I need a Machariel Enjoy your Machariel or T3 until the nerf bat. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
118
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:52:00 -
[6920] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote: I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement. Blops have even higher skill requirements and their DPS is worse than of T1 battleships. And your point is?
And even if your wish is granted, what would be the reason to use Pirate BS after that?
And when lobbied by their users, Pirate BS are improved beyond Marauders the cycle will repeat. When would you stop then? When any or each of them can blap a Titan?
Quote:And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep. Man, you really don't know what balance means, do you?(*)
Quote:goddamnit i hate this new marauder design And this is the only your argument which is valid to me. Honestly. Like and dislike are personal matters and everyone has right to opinions against all reason. I like new marauders because I wanted to like them and thus I am willing to forgive them their shortcomings. You don't want to like them so you will not give them credit where it's due. And at such emotional level it's okay.
Though if you want to discuss on more objective grounds, please don't ignore people, me including, who reported how those ships actually perform on test server. It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too.
(*) For the record, if off-topic, Anakin Skywalker actually *did* brought balance. After events of RotS there were Obi Wan and Yoda vs. Vader and Palpatine. Pretty balanced situation if anyone asked me. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
405
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:01:00 -
[6921] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too. I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
118
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:10:00 -
[6922] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep. In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction. Not buff marauder.
here let me help you http://lmgtfy.com/?q=power+creepa dmg increase doesnt necessarily mean power creep It might not in some special cases but in general it does. Funny, the second link from your link is: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep . Frankly, I'm not too sure to which side of this discussion it makes an argument, but the discussion is quite interesting. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
118
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:16:00 -
[6923] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:hmskrecik wrote:It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too. I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much. To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better.
And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;) |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:42:00 -
[6924] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep. In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction. Not buff marauder.
here let me help you http://lmgtfy.com/?q=power+creepa dmg increase doesnt necessarily mean power creep It might not in some special cases but in general it does. Funny, the second link from your link is: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep . Frankly, I'm not too sure to which side of this debate it makes an argument, but the discussion is quite interesting.
The power creep occurs when new content / power / whatever makes other content progressively less viable over time, thereby making some other piece of content (and effectively the dev time spent on it) worthless or at least not as valuable as it should be. The 'power' in power creep doesnt necessarily mean dps, dmg, tank, or whatever, but the overall usefulness.
"Yeah, the art of reading with comprehension is dying." - hmskrecik |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
405
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:45:00 -
[6925] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce too. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better.
And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;) I don't think there's any question the new Marauders are better overall (with a few minor exceptions). Just that for the amount of skill training required, it's a bit of a letdown. In terms of the new animations, I think the Kronos is the clear winner. The Paladin and Golem are not bad (for some reason I thought we'd see something with the wings on the Golem). The Vargur has the most potential, they just need to add the glowing effects to the edges of the shields that roll out.
It's actually too bad that Bastion is the same for all Marauders. It would've been neat to have it give each ship a unique bonus. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:46:00 -
[6926] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Battle Cube wrote: I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement. Blops have even higher skill requirements and their DPS is worse than of T1 battleships. And your point is? And even if your wish is granted, what would be the reason to use Pirate BS after that? And when lobbied by their users, Pirate BS are improved beyond Marauders the cycle will repeat. When would you stop then? When any or each of them can blap a Titan? Quote:And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep. Man, you really don't know what balance means, do you?(*) Quote:goddamnit i hate this new marauder design And this is the only your argument which is valid to me. Honestly. Like and dislike are personal matters and everyone has right to opinions against all reason. I like new marauders because I wanted to like them and thus I am willing to forgive them their shortcomings. You don't want to like them so you will not give them credit where it's due. And at such emotional level it's okay. Though if you want to discuss on more objective grounds, please don't ignore people, me including, who reported how those ships actually perform on test server. It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too. (*) For the record, if off-topic, Anakin Skywalker actually *did* brought balance. After events of RotS there were Obi Wan and Yoda vs. Vader and Palpatine. Pretty balanced situation if anyone asked me.
pirate is expensive and good but not as skill intensive. it makes sense to have marauder be similar in output but cheaper isk because of high skill requirements, or making them better while requiring both isk AND skill points.
And my god i wanted to like the new marauder, i really did, i want to fly them.,...theres just no situation where it would be better to use these marauders over a small gang of different ships. (as i dont solo )
power creep causes things to become unbalanced, you can indeed balance the system by buffing an individual part that has been dwarfed by most other parts of the game - the Other parts of the game are what have experienced power creep. In the end, everyones' paper damage will be higher, and tanks will be higher, its a sort of inflation... but its an easier way to re balance the game then it is to nerf EVERYTHING else.
its not about the numbers being in their hundreds vs their thousands, its about the interrelationship between different parts of the game at any one time... artificial inflation of the numbers is irrelevant.
the situation of the pirate ship - being expensive, but over all best at doing most things...
and the marauder - tech2 ship - both expensive AND skill intensive - SUPPOSED to be very good at a niche situation ( although i cant find a situation where i would want to use a bastion'ed marauder over a small gang of non-marauders)
it seems to me that their roles should be reversed XD The expensive and skill intensive ship should be doing what the pirate currently does, while simply expensive should be these niche situations. Obviously they wont do this, but it just seems to make sense. Since the niche situation ship is less desirable, it should have an over all lower cost. While the more desirable ship, should have the over all higher cost.
but this is eve where nothing makes sense and the points dont matter :D |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 22:03:00 -
[6927] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:hmskrecik wrote:It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too. I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much. To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce too. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better. And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;)
it would be nice if the ships changed shapes more... i was kind of expecting them to shift radically into... looking like a COMPLETELY different ship, like the sails retracting on the vargur and becoming more of a sleek thing, or the paladin going vertical or what have you. The vargur, so far, seems pretty disappointing, but whatever. I mean they arent terrible, but the negatives of the bastion mechanics make the prettyness not worth it |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 22:49:00 -
[6928] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:it would be nice if the ships changed shapes more... i was kind of expecting them to shift radically into... looking like a COMPLETELY different ship, like the sails retracting on the vargur and becoming more of a sleek thing, or the paladin going vertical or what have you. The vargur, so far, seems pretty disappointing, but whatever. I mean they arent terrible, but the negatives of the bastion mechanics make the prettyness not worth it I would still pay good money to see the Vargur's plates changed to yellow feathers to make it look like a giant chicken.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
163
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 01:45:00 -
[6929] - Quote
Any update on the Bastion Module no longer needing an invention skill? Pretty please Fozzie and Rise? |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 02:28:00 -
[6930] - Quote
i have very interesting question, for now CCP Rise introduced RHML. shouldn't golem have role bonus to those ? Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
621
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 03:35:00 -
[6931] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:i have very interesting question, for now CCP Rise introduced RHML. shouldn't golem have role bonus to those ?
CCP has already stated that existing bs class missile bonuses will not effect rhmls, and no be would be getting a bonus to rhmls.
My assumption here is that they're balanced with damage high enough to make a difference without bonuses. However, we won't be getting bs class dps out of them, and I'm wondering about range, cause without range bonuses, they'll be fairly useless.... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 03:42:00 -
[6932] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:CCP has already stated that existing bs class missile bonuses will not effect rhmls, and no be would be getting a bonus to rhmls.
My assumption here is that they're balanced with damage high enough to make a difference without bonuses. However, we won't be getting bs class dps out of them, and I'm wondering about range, cause without range bonuses, they'll be fairly useless.... We're still getting damage and rate-of-fire, are we not? (just not explosion radius, explosion velocity or missile velocity) Range is actually fairly surprising. 65km base and almost 100km if you run hydraulic rigs. They're gonna be cruiser tack drivers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
621
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:07:00 -
[6933] - Quote
Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:20:00 -
[6934] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
  HAML tengu with 2x t2 invuls and em hard(not even exp) that has about 300 angel tank does ganza about 30-35 min with bonus room. no problem at all. most dangerous thing is 4 tacklers there. so means , u doing something wrong
but back to subj. without bonus RHML will be useless on golem. Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:38:00 -
[6935] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet. pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room.
i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min
|

Yelizaveta
The Butterflies Effect
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:48:00 -
[6936] - Quote
I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
The fact of the matter is a marauder outside of bastion is nearly identical the the current marauder setup, with an added bonus to tracking (in the case of the Kronos). Some of them are getting a small reduction in total HP, but most of them are getting more HP. A tiny reduction in capacitor or capacitor recharge is barely noticeable, and lowered max velocity doesn't mean ****.
Marauders were designed from the get go to be long range gunships. I understand that the Vargur originally couldn't fit a full rack of Artillary but now it can.
Simply put, if you fly the ship the way it was intended to be flown, the changes to the base hulls with the use of bastion are nothing but positive. A bonus to tank, a bonus to range, immunity to those pesky Serpentis damps and Angel jams? Tell me how this is a bad thing. |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3364
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 06:04:00 -
[6937] - Quote
It has immunity to ewar(which is a huge ***** if you are in guri/serp space) and 100% bonus to tank so you can fit for more dps/tracking/range. I don't get how you can ***** and moan about anything at all.
I ran the ships on SiSi and they definitely made PvE bearable. The highest tick I got was 14mil while I was in a Golem doing a Serp Assault.
You guys whine all you want but I hope CCP ignores you and lets me run my Vargur/Kronos/Golem with awesome bonuses and crappy animations.
CCP, when you do find time, please revamp the animations. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
199
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 06:09:00 -
[6938] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet. pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room. i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min
I've run that in about 45 in a CNR. Virtually same tank fit as my Golem, with an extra SBA and swap out the med booster for a Gist-X x-large to make up for the lack of the shield boost bonus (have to drop the ab for the booster, but not bad mission without it).
|

SOL Ranger
SOL.
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 06:22:00 -
[6939] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:14:00 -
[6940] - Quote
i noticed today the sisi golem and TQ golem got the same amount of cap and recharge time. I guess they unnerfed the cap ?
|
|

Doug Mackenz
Ambivalence Co-operative
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:18:00 -
[6941] - Quote
Just loaded up Singularity to check out the Bastion stuff for the Marauders..... and the Vargur is semi transparent??? |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
582
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:44:00 -
[6942] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:And my god i wanted to like the new marauder, i really did, i want to fly them.,...theres just no situation where it would be better to use these marauders over a small gang of different ships. (as i dont solo )
A small gang of ships is better than a single T2 Battleship... My god, who would have thought.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:45:00 -
[6943] - Quote
Doug Mackenz wrote:Just loaded up Singularity to check out the Bastion stuff for the Marauders..... and the Vargur is semi transparent??? Is that like a semi-permanent cloak?  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
553
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 07:59:00 -
[6944] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing. Implying those things were ever relevant in missions. Except maybe fittings, but those are developed for a long time already. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
616
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 09:10:00 -
[6945] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing.
and how is that different than now? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 10:03:00 -
[6946] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote: You guys whine all you want but I hope CCP ignores you and lets me run my Vargur/Kronos/Golem with awesome bonuses and crappy animations.
i too like some of improvements, i'd rather CCP granted Vargur an "OPTIMAL and FALLOFF" bonus.. even with this bonus it will be my last choice btw.. golem would be top cos of best ammo you can choose for missions, both paladin/kronos are good incursions and w-life.. autocannons dps on fitting screen is ok, but practical dps? it is good only with nano ships, imho..
the thing is i wonder about the final requirements (skill and fuel) of bastion module..
and no offense but i havent met any game publisher who cares about the game and its players sake.. thats why i deal sceptically.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Shamus en Divalone
Dip Dip Potatoe Chip
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 10:07:00 -
[6947] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:Jake Warbird wrote: You guys whine all you want but I hope CCP ignores you and lets me run my Vargur/Kronos/Golem with awesome bonuses and crappy animations.
i too like some of improvements, i'd rather CCP granted Vargur an "OPTIMAL and FALLOFF" bonus.. even with this bonus it will be my last choice btw.. golem would be top cos of best ammo you can choose for missions, both paladin/kronos are good incursions and w-life.. autocannons dps on fitting screen is ok, but practical dps? it is good only with nano ships, imho.. the thing is i wonder about the final requirements (skill and fuel) of bastion module.. and no offense but i havent met any game publisher who cares about the game and its players sake.. thats why i deal sceptically..
It would be nice to know if High Energy Physics IV is the skill to train for Bastion, as for fuel, I don't think they will implement that for the Bastion module.
|

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 10:57:00 -
[6948] - Quote
Yelizaveta wrote:I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
The fact of the matter is a marauder outside of bastion is nearly identical the the current marauder setup, with an added bonus to tracking (in the case of the Kronos). Some of them are getting a small reduction in total HP, but most of them are getting more HP. A tiny reduction in capacitor or capacitor recharge is barely noticeable, and lowered max velocity doesn't mean ****.
Except of the speed nerf, drone band wide nerf and the removal of the web bonuses. You guys wouldn't even have the drone bay and partial speed fixes on the hulls without the feedback of the people that actually fly marauders. And they are still overall worse compared to the current marauders, for people that actually use them without overtaking them or for Incs/WH, when you relay on RR.
Yelizaveta wrote:Marauders were designed from the get go to be long range gunships. I understand that the Vargur originally couldn't fit a full rack of Artillary but now it can.
Btw the golem was designed around torpedoes, the only reason people fit CMs on it is because apparently torpedoes are fine, even if you use another weapon system on a dedicated torpedo platform. Would you be so kind to quote me a dev that stated they are build around long range? Because I was actually there when they introduced them so many years ago and can't remember it.
Yelizaveta wrote:Simply put, if you fly the ship the way it was intended to be flown, the changes to the base hulls with the use of bastion are nothing but positive. A bonus to tank, a bonus to range, immunity to those pesky Serpentis damps and Angel jams? Tell me how this is a bad thing.
Strange, because I fly marauders since years and hate the changes, because they completely ignore the real problems of marauders(speed, range, application on the top golem, rail/sentry Kronos dps and a useful niche for the Vargur) in favour of a active tank that only people need that consistently ignore all the mechanics of the content(with a hand full of exceptions).
I would have preferred to see the new concept as a new ship class, instead changing a existent one or at least giving marauder pilots the opportunity to still fly the ship they used since years instead being forced to switch hulls, if they don't have real use for bastion and mjd.
Btw Angels don't jam they paint. |

marVLs
500
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 11:16:00 -
[6949] - Quote
There are still two major problems:
1. Vargur suck on AC's in sniping role (well new marauders are designed to have long ranges on short range weapons), and don't get me started with those arty fits lol go ahead fit it that way and be a lot less efficient. And it lacks one med slot or something, even golem can easily fit dual prop
2. Torps on Golem, no one will use them for time/isk effi when we have cruise missiles (someone here noted it's strange that torps have worse stats in aspects of damage applicaton, and smaller clip size compared to long range weapons) |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 11:21:00 -
[6950] - Quote
marVLs wrote:There are still two major problems:
1. Vargur suck on AC's in sniping role (well new marauders are designed to have long ranges on short range weapons), and don't get me started with those arty fits lol go ahead fit it that way and be a lot less efficient. And it lacks one med slot or something, even golem can easily fit dual prop
2. Torps on Golem, no one will use them for time/isk effi when we have cruise missiles (someone here noted it's strange that torps have worse stats in aspects of damage applicaton, and smaller clip size compared to long range weapons) i agree with 2nd argument. but 1st one... why should you snipe with close range weapon and selectable damage profile ? Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
905
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 11:39:00 -
[6951] - Quote
I'm not sure you should necessarily snipe with ACs, but the range increase in Bastion is kind of silly on the Vargur. You get a little bit of extra optimal and loads of extra falloff which doesn't really translate well into any kind of improved damage application. It would be better if the Vargur had a bit more optimal bonus and a bit less falloff.
It would also be lovely if the Bastion module also gave a Golem w/ T1 torps more than ~10km of range. I still feel that Bastioned T1 torps reaching out to ~45 or 50km with both range skills at 5 isn't unreasonable.
However, it appears that CCP feels the Vargur and the Golem are just fine because the Kronos gets amazing range with Null. |

marVLs
500
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 11:45:00 -
[6952] - Quote
zbaaca wrote: i agree with 2nd argument. but 1st one... why should you snipe with close range weapon and selectable damage profile ?
Because it's falloff? |

Doug Mackenz
Ambivalence Co-operative
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 11:52:00 -
[6953] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Doug Mackenz wrote:Just loaded up Singularity to check out the Bastion stuff for the Marauders..... and the Vargur is semi transparent??? Is that like a semi-permanent cloak? 
Not quite. The ships visible but you can see through it. In space, in dock and in preview. Something must be wrong with the skin, or what ever you call it. |

ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
2285
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 12:37:00 -
[6954] - Quote
Can we talk about shield-tanked armor marauders?
Okay, I got bored. But I took the bastion paladin and stuck an XLASB tank on it. It can take 2100dps on one booster whilst pumping out 1100dps in return up to 40km. Not sure if this is cause for concern or not. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:07:00 -
[6955] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. An hour is not a good clear time. 40 - 50 mins on a vargur. Vargur is currently able to tank AE bonus room w/o bastion or cap boosters on a short range setup. I don't use prop for AE, tank is 2 gist A-type explosive hardeners, 1 gist A-type kin hardener, gist x-type large sb. Total cost of that tank is just under 500mil and very easy to make stable if you like that sort of thing. Make sure to kill the cruise launchers first btw.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:07:00 -
[6956] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
I guess I could have mentioned this was full clear. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:09:00 -
[6957] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
  HAML tengu with 2x t2 invuls and em hard(not even exp) that has about 300 angel tank does ganza about 30-35 min with bonus room. no problem at all. most dangerous thing is 4 tacklers there. so means , u doing something wrong but back to subj. without bonus RHML will be useless on golem.
Uhh, probably not. There's no way in hell that you're full clearing in 30-35 min with a ham tengu. Also, the tengu is soon to probably get beaten into the ground with the nerf bat. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:10:00 -
[6958] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet. pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room. i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min
I highly doubt any of that.... Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear"
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:12:00 -
[6959] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing.
Isn't that exactly what we should be getting out of a pve focused ship that take forever to train and cost as much as a capital?
I mean, they're supposed to be top teir pve. They should be able to clear lvl 4's with no issues because they should be focused towards more difficult pve. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:15:00 -
[6960] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. An hour is not a good clear time. 40 - 50 mins on a vargur. Vargur is currently able to tank AE bonus room w/o bastion or cap boosters on a short range setup. I don't use prop for AE, tank is 2 gist A-type explosive hardeners, 1 gist A-type kin hardener, gist x-type large sb. Total cost of that tank is just under 500mil and very easy to make stable if you like that sort of thing. Make sure to kill the cruise launchers first btw.
Vargur has always been a freak of nature when it comes to marauders. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:17:00 -
[6961] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing. Isn't that exactly what we should be getting out of a pve focused ship that take forever to train and cost as much as a capital? I mean, they're supposed to be top teir pve. They should be able to clear lvl 4's with no issues because they should be focused towards more difficult pve. um they can already clear with no issues. If you are having issues ur doing it wrong.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:29:00 -
[6962] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing. Isn't that exactly what we should be getting out of a pve focused ship that take forever to train and cost as much as a capital? I mean, they're supposed to be top teir pve. They should be able to clear lvl 4's with no issues because they should be focused towards more difficult pve. um they can already clear with no issues. If you are having issues ur doing it wrong.
yes, no issues...
Other than jams, damps, neuts, TPs, large sig, low mobility.
Maybe marauders don't have many problems with angel extravaganza, but with all their weaknesses on live, this mission isn't exactly their biggest issue. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
617
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:29:00 -
[6963] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing. Isn't that exactly what we should be getting out of a pve focused ship that take forever to train and cost as much as a capital? I mean, they're supposed to be top teir pve. They should be able to clear lvl 4's with no issues because they should be focused towards more difficult pve.
They are not PVE focused anymore. Read the OP. PVE focused doe snot match EVE concept.. stated at start of thread. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:35:00 -
[6964] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
Translation: Bastion is so utterly overpowered it trivializes missions to the point where piloting skills, fitting, effort and consequences in battle mean nothing. Isn't that exactly what we should be getting out of a pve focused ship that take forever to train and cost as much as a capital? I mean, they're supposed to be top teir pve. They should be able to clear lvl 4's with no issues because they should be focused towards more difficult pve. They are not PVE focused anymore. Read the OP. PVE focused doe snot match EVE concept.. stated at start of thread.
oh yes, their very niche pvp capabilities as well.... |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 14:03:00 -
[6965] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: yes, no issues...
Other than jams, damps, neuts, TPs, large sig, low mobility.
Maybe marauders don't have many problems with angel extravaganza, but with all their weaknesses on live, this mission isn't exactly their biggest issue.
I can agree with that. jams and damp immunity are nice for the few missions littered with them, the rest arnt a big issue with 4s... except mobility, which has gotten worse... :(
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 14:15:00 -
[6966] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: yes, no issues...
Other than jams, damps, neuts, TPs, large sig, low mobility.
Maybe marauders don't have many problems with angel extravaganza, but with all their weaknesses on live, this mission isn't exactly their biggest issue.
I can agree with that. jams and damp immunity are nice for the few missions littered with them, the rest arnt a big issue with 4s... except mobility, which has gotten worse... :(
Well, I do know that even using a lvl 5 Marauder, certain high damage missions can be problematice on live with their current sig radius'.
The best mission I can think of is Smash the Supplier. Granted, this is an anti-Amarr mission in Gallente space, but if you're not worried about opposing standing, this mission is virtually undoable....
That said, I also plan to test a torp Golem in Angel extravaganza whenever I'm able to get it again... |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 14:51:00 -
[6967] - Quote
Jill Antaris wrote: Btw the golem was designed around torpedoes, the only reason people fit CMs on it is because apparently torpedoes are fine, even if you use another weapon system on a dedicated torpedo platform. Would you be so kind to quote me a dev that stated they are build around long range? Because I was actually there when they introduced them so many years ago and can't remember it.
Strange, because I fly marauders since years and hate the changes, because they completely ignore the real problems of marauders(speed, range, application on the top golem, rail/sentry Kronos dps and a useful niche for the Vargur) in favour of a active tank that only people need that consistently ignore all the mechanics of the content(with a hand full of exceptions).
I would have preferred to see the new concept as a new ship class, instead changing a existent one or at least giving marauder pilots the opportunity to still fly the ship they used since years instead being forced to switch hulls, if they don't have real use for bastion and mjd.
how can you say golem is designed as a torpedo platform??? any referrance??? to be sure about Lai Dai philosopy you can check descriptions of the ships which they are developed by Lai Dai..
strange, because i have never flown marauder, i wasnt sure about worth training, till now.. also you should read description of marauder too..
some useful links: http://www.eveinfo.net/wiki/inde~385.htm and https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Battleships:Advanced_Battleships:Marauders
Jill Antaris wrote:Btw Angels don't jam they paint.
please dont be so cocky, as if you are perfect.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
582
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 15:27:00 -
[6968] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote: how can you say golem is designed as a torpedo platform??? any referrance??? to be sure about Lai Dai philosopy you can check descriptions of the ships which they are developed by Lai Dai..
Used to be, until Cruises got buffed, now there's no real reason o use torps anymore... Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 15:51:00 -
[6969] - Quote
toprs can do pretty solid damage on the golem but they need 2 t2 rigors and 2-3tps to do so still with ranges of around 33 rage 40 t1 its just not worth |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
459
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 16:05:00 -
[6970] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:hmskrecik wrote:It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too. I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much. To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce too. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better. And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;) it would be nice if the ships changed shapes more... i was kind of expecting them to shift radically into... looking like a COMPLETELY different ship, like the sails retracting on the vargur and becoming more of a sleek thing, or the paladin going vertical or what have you. The vargur, so far, seems pretty disappointing, but whatever. I mean they arent terrible, but the negatives of the bastion mechanics make the prettyness not worth it
Once in a lifetime opportunity to make Vargur a space cannon wasted. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 17:20:00 -
[6971] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Used to be, until Cruises got buffed, now there's no real reason o use torps anymore... Just on bombers.
Vinyl 41 wrote:toprs can do pretty solid damage on the golem but they need 2 t2 rigors and 2-3tps to do so still with ranges of around 33 rage 40 t1 its just not worth Any way you slice it, by the time you add the additional modules (TPs, webs) to support torpedoes it's just not worth the extra 10% DPS for the huge range drop and lack of configuration options. Torpedoes need an overhaul to be seriously considered as a viable option (Bastion doesn't do it). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Hanna Cyrus
Paranocxium Brotherhood Of Silent Space
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 17:21:00 -
[6972] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: 1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.
I'm sorry to say, that the fastest round with one single ship i know is from Gul Rashen (he started a thread in eveger forum long time ago, an posted fitting, tactics and so on) in an AE he needs less than 30 mins. I for myself don't need bastion or something and need something around 35 mins in my Vargur now on TQ.
The changes are only good for brainless missionruning, you don't need to make tactics to avoid incoming dps. You can ignore EW ships (espacilly the ECm elite Cruiser in gurista space), all in all it's dumbening down the game, that i don't like. But for which one? The "vets" know what they are doing. If new players are not smart enough to use google and read what to do, they don't stay in this game very long (they get back to wow...). The only thing that is realy better: You don't need to pimp your ship like a bling bling brothel door, T2 is enough now.
All the other stuff: Incursion, L5, Wh and so on.... should be not be done with a single char. It's stuff for groups and should stay is this way, just bring friends.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
408
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 17:30:00 -
[6973] - Quote
Anything you can do in a Golem you can just as easily do in a Raven on L4s. Since we're just talking about 'turtling' in Bastion mode, you can use a MJD, signal amplifier and some sensor boosters to park your Raven @ 200km range and volley away. So if you've trained for Marauders, you'll probably use the new ones. Otherwise, there are probably higher priority skills and cheaper ships that can generally accomplish the same. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
119
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 18:27:00 -
[6974] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:pirate is expensive and good but not as skill intensive. it makes sense to have marauder be similar in output but cheaper isk because of high skill requirements, or making them better while requiring both isk AND skill points.
And my god i wanted to like the new marauder, i really did, i want to fly them.,...theres just no situation where it would be better to use these marauders over a small gang of different ships. (as i dont solo )
power creep causes things to become unbalanced, you can indeed balance the system by buffing an individual part that has been dwarfed by most other parts of the game - the Other parts of the game are what have experienced power creep. In the end, everyones' paper damage will be higher, and tanks will be higher, its a sort of inflation... but its an easier way to re balance the game then it is to nerf EVERYTHING else.
its not about the numbers being in their hundreds vs their thousands, its about the interrelationship between different parts of the game at any one time... artificial inflation of the numbers is irrelevant. Skill requirements do not entitle you to have just higher DPS. OK, it may be generaly the case but it's not a strict rule.
The fact that you couldn't find the proper situation where these ships can be used does not mean such situation does not exist. And you keep ignoring people reporting that they found it. CCP is not obliged to give a role you like to the ship you like. It's the other way around: they give ship and capabilities, and finding the role or purpose is up to you. If you could not find it, tough luck, maybe try another ship?
About power creep and balancing, you are wrong again. If you balance by buffing, then you have to rebalance everything else, sooner or later. Not only ships but also PVE content. If all goes according to your wishes, in couple of years we're going to have battleships outputting in 2-3k range, which means all PVE content will be too easy. And I wouldn't hold my breath on CCP going anytime soon to update all missions, lest the rest of PVE.
You are right it's all about numbers interbalance. The thing is, it's about ALL numbers. It's easier to keep in check, and nerf if required, small their subset instead of tweaking the whole lot. |

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
78
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 18:48:00 -
[6975] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull plates on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fozzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. Why do you want to waste the time the art dept,has put ino the new model with this half-assed bastion animation? |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 18:54:00 -
[6976] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet. pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room. i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min I highly doubt any of that.... Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear" so 'k; i can understand the hesitance to believe anything that doesn't fit the model of OMG THE NEW MARAUDERS are hot sex in a tanking blanket. But i am not the only one telling you the current vargar on TQ can do it in significantly less then 1 hour.
A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuY
so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 19:44:00 -
[6977] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet. pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room. i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min I highly doubt any of that.... Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear" so 'k; i can understand the hesitance to believe anything that doesn't fit the model of OMG THE NEW MARAUDERS are hot sex in a tanking blanket. But i am not the only one telling you the current vargar on TQ can do it in significantly less then 1 hour. A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuYso yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.
Like I said, vargur is a freak of nature.
Also, it's an 800's vs cruise issue. 800's carry a ton of ammo, have a faster cycle time, don't have to swap ammo for smaller targets, have instant damage application.
With missiles
I can only carry 27 per launcher, I have to wait for the missiles to travel so I can cycle to the next target, have to swap ammo for smaller targets, and they cycle slower.
and they both have damage selection. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 19:51:00 -
[6978] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:
so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.
Agreed, using incorrect fittings, low skilled characters, bad mission playing, etc should not be justification nor used as a valid point of comparison.
Completion of AE in under 1 hour has never been difficult. Properly fitted ships with proper skills, knowing the mission and drunkin piloting can easily complete AE in under 1 hour without batting an eye.
Joe Risalo, all you've done is reiterate how huge of a crutch bastion is, and you still struggled with it.
On a related sidenote, I would recommend some brushing up on fits and perhaps revisiting your skills Joe, since you honestly should not be struggling like that, it could be some very minor changes that go a long way to helping your mission running experience be more pleasurable. Right now it sounds a bit on the rocky side.
The only last thing I can think of that either I missed or Joe you didn't explain is if you sat there salvaging every single thing after you finished a pocket? or something to do with multi tasking properly that's adding to mission completion time. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
119
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 19:52:00 -
[6979] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuYso yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time. Well, 37 minutes it's what I could achieve with mildly pimped Machariel, Vargur was a little slower but still managed to finish it in two ticks.
And Vargur on SiSi isn't any worse. Incidentally I did AE with it a couple days ago and the result was similar or maybe a tiny bit better than on TQ.
Vargur didn't get much from this rebalancing but it was quite decent ship to begin with.
I'll state explicitly what I suggested in my earlier posts: in my opinion, right now and as long as missions are concerned, Marauders and Pirate BS strike quite healthy balance. Pirates for min-max DPS (until nerft, nobody knows how they'll look like after), Marauders for versatile and tanky boats. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:03:00 -
[6980] - Quote
Outz Xacto wrote:Shantetha wrote:
so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.
Agreed, using incorrect fittings, low skilled characters, bad mission playing, etc should not be justification nor used as a valid point of comparison. Completion of AE in under 1 hour has never been difficult. Properly fitted ships with proper skills, knowing the mission and drunkin piloting can easily complete AE in under 1 hour without batting an eye. Joe Risalo, all you've done is reiterate how huge of a crutch bastion is, and you still struggled with it. On a related sidenote, I would recommend some brushing up on fits and perhaps revisiting your skills Joe, since you honestly should not be struggling like that, it could be some very minor changes that go a long way to helping your mission running experience be more pleasurable. Right now it sounds a bit on the rocky side. The only last thing I can think of that either I missed or Joe you didn't explain is if you sat there salvaging every single thing after you finished a pocket? or something to do with multi tasking properly that's adding to mission completion time.
No, I did not salvage... I did, however, full clear every room (not including structures), and bonus room.
I just watched a video, and I think I know my issue.
I've been swapping to precision with small ships, but after I just watched a video, it appears that I can just fit the 3rd TP and stick with pure fury missiles.
Also, I have quite high missile skills... They only thing i probably don't have that would effect a cruise golem, is cruise specialization 5.
I put out 1015 dps with fury....
That said, it is possible that all that time spent reloading between precision and fury could be my problem. Granted, it's not like I spent the whole time reloading... I would blast all the BS's in a room, and then start clearing frigs and cruisers. |
|

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:09:00 -
[6981] - Quote
In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.
1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.
2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.
3. Extra tank is unnecessary.
Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.
4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.
So I have 3 suggestions.
1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.
3. Give some or all of the speed back. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
119
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:12:00 -
[6982] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I would blast all the BS's in a room, and then start clearing frigs and cruisers. That's why, I believe, use of light scouts is not necessarily a waste of performance. Time not shooting at frigs/destroyers can be invested in shooting at BS/BC. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
913
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:14:00 -
[6983] - Quote
With the exception of having 20m/sec slower max velocity, I'm looking over the stats between a TQ Vargur and a SiSi Vargur and finding it hard to tell where the ship wasn't actually buffed for Rubicon compared to what we have now.
- It has more armor and shield, with the same recharge time - a net gain in EHP over TQ
- It has noticeably less mass (96,520,000 vs 106,100,000)
- It has a larger cap (although the recharge time seems to have been slowed slightly)
- It has more targeting range
- It has noticeably more scan resolution
- It gains a highslot
- It gains quite a bit of powergrid (7900 --> 12900)
- It gains a role bonus to let it MJD at a useful frequency
- It loses a noticeable amount of sig radius
- Faster aligning
Then there's the (in)famous Bastion Mode. The range/falloff bonuses don't apply very well on the Vargur (with the possible exception of Tremor) but the tank bonus certainly does. *
For all of this, you trade:
- Some structure HP
- 25 Mbit/sec unbonused drone bandwidth
- 20 M/sec max velocity
Overall, a no-bastion Rubicon Vargur looks to be a better ship than a no-bastion TQ Vargur.
* Bastion's range bonus is 25% to optimal and falloff, stacking penalized. This translates to a small increase in optimal and a significant increase in falloff. It's important to consider that although projectile weapons do operate in falloff, the large increase in falloff when paired with the small increase to optimal doesn't actually help your effective range that much. 500 DPS @ 50km is probably great for 800s except that you're more than halfway into falloff and won't be hitting often enough to actually do that DPS. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
913
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:21:00 -
[6984] - Quote
After writing all that up and checking my numbers two or three times, I wonder if someone will say "but the Kronos gets amazing range with Null." |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:22:00 -
[6985] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I would blast all the BS's in a room, and then start clearing frigs and cruisers. That's why, I believe, use of light scouts is not necessarily a waste of performance. Time not shooting at frigs/destroyers can be invested in shooting at BS/BC.
I can use t2 lights of all races, so it might be best to swap them out for proper damage type as well |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:24:00 -
[6986] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Shantetha wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.
I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).
It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room. That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away. I never had to warp out. I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.
That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.
In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap. However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.
1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza..... Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate. I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters. buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet. pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room. i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min I highly doubt any of that.... Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear" so 'k; i can understand the hesitance to believe anything that doesn't fit the model of OMG THE NEW MARAUDERS are hot sex in a tanking blanket. But i am not the only one telling you the current vargar on TQ can do it in significantly less then 1 hour. A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuYso yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time. Like I said, vargur is a freak of nature. Also, it's an 800's vs cruise issue. 800's carry a ton of ammo, have a faster cycle time, don't have to swap ammo for smaller targets, have instant damage application. With missiles I can only carry 27 per launcher, I have to wait for the missiles to travel so I can cycle to the next target, have to swap ammo for smaller targets, and they cycle slower. and they both have damage selection.
Vargur is only good vs angels and in mission damsel in distress i try vargur in serpentis assault and it was pretty rough |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:27:00 -
[6987] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:After writing all that up and checking my numbers two or three times, I wonder if someone will say "but the Kronos gets amazing range with Null."
Who cares... Kronos doesn't get damage selection.
Trade range for selection.... Sounds fair really |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:31:00 -
[6988] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.
1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.
2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.
3. Extra tank is unnecessary.
Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.
4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.
So I have 3 suggestions.
1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.
3. Give some or all of the speed back.
Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon
the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 20:59:00 -
[6989] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.
1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.
2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.
3. Extra tank is unnecessary.
Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.
4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.
So I have 3 suggestions.
1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.
3. Give some or all of the speed back. Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.
running missions in an assault frig is still an option btw.... but as with 1400s its just not a real viable one compared to alternatives.
Like it or not, overall this is a nerf in isk per hour on level 4s
comparing TQ to rubicon vargur
If I run w/o changing anything / not taking bastion, it is a straight nerf because of mobility changes and the impact they have on AC fits.
If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps. More or less if you use bastion to free up slots, your overall dps goes down when you use the bastion module. If you dont use bastion, you are left with the nerfs given to the hull to try to help balance bastion. Outside of bastion, this extra TC gives an extra 5 points dps.. which is quickly lost via mobility differences.
The only benefits gained for 4s: * high ewar missions * Very specific situations in which a MJD is needed more than once every three minutes, but could not be done more effectively with a different form of prop.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:20:00 -
[6990] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon
the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.
You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers. |
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:23:00 -
[6991] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.
when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer.... you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.
If you stay still with a vargur you waste dps and so you waste isk.if you can't use mjd to jump into the middle of npcs it is useless for vargur. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:28:00 -
[6992] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.
when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer.... you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.
lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc
Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement...
If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:50:00 -
[6993] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Mer88 wrote:Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon
the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.
You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers.
you sound like one of those who mix pvp and pve up just to get a point accross. why are you bringin tornado into the mix? how exactly is malestorm better than a vargur in the expansion? vargur got falloff bonus and bastion give more optimal and falloff. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:55:00 -
[6994] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.
1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.
2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.
3. Extra tank is unnecessary.
Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.
4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.
So I have 3 suggestions.
1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.
3. Give some or all of the speed back.
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
913
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:17:00 -
[6995] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:POS forum ate my post :(
Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.
It is going to be glorious and I can't wait
FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?
It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.
Since you tested it, what would you say about projectile ranges with Bastion vs without? For that matter, what sort of guns did you use and which ammo type(s)? |

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:20:00 -
[6996] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.
when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer.... you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid. lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement... If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour
you didn't understand the point i quoted this passage because of the very flawed logic in this passage. you only talk about the damage bonus at a fixed range your TE gives you and THEN you make the worst mistake .....you say compared to old bandwith you loose dmg (with a ship thats supposed to e in the middle of a fight in your preffered fit)
if you actually belive youll do better clear times useing med drones your just bad. small drones (with selected dmg) wil clear all small ships up to cruisers while you apply your damage to cruisers and above will lead to better clear times than just going with most dps drones (like hobs). and if you say youll loose dps by not beeing able to swap between drones when all small ships are dead you greatly underestimate the travel times of drones.
so effectively you'll loose way less dps than these 36 if even any dps.
thats why i called it dumb cause you neglect all but your eft dmg (in this case).
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:36:00 -
[6997] - Quote
wow.....
CCP, I think it's time to start a new thread, cause this one has turned into nothing more than ship by ship comparisons and strategies.... |

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
134
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:49:00 -
[6998] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:wow.....
CCP, I think it's time to start a new thread, cause this one has turned into nothing more than ship by ship comparisons and strategies.... If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:51:00 -
[6999] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.
when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer.... you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid. lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement... If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour you didn't understand the point i quoted this passage because of the very flawed logic in this passage. you only talk about the damage bonus at a fixed range your TE gives you and THEN you make the worst mistake .....you say compared to old bandwith you loose dmg (with a ship thats supposed to e in the middle of a fight in your preffered fit) if you actually belive youll do better clear times useing med drones your just bad. small drones (with selected dmg) wil clear all small ships up to cruisers while you apply your damage to cruisers and above will lead to better clear times than just going with most dps drones (like hobs). and if you say youll loose dps by not beeing able to swap between drones when all small ships are dead you greatly underestimate the travel times of drones. so effectively you'll loose way less dps than these 36 if even any dps. thats why i called it dumb cause you neglect all but your eft dmg (in this case).
I think you may want to reread... the 36 dps was showing the the dmg increase bastion mode gives via bastion + a TC in a midslot freed from being able to use less mids. In other words, the turret dmg at the 40KM mark is better on the SiSi vargur by 36 points while in bastion mode. Outside of bastion mode, the SiSi vargur does around 5 more points of dps at that range b/c of the tracking computer.
outside of bastion, the 5point advantage is easily countered by the TQ vargurs speed. Inside of bastion, the TQ vargur can move 2KM to gain an advantage over the sisi vargur. So before tanking bandwidth into account the TQ vargur still has the advantage.
If you want to play with the impact of drones: An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.
Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones. |

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:55:00 -
[7000] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:wow.....
CCP, I think it's time to start a new thread, cause this one has turned into nothing more than ship by ship comparisons and strategies....
Actually those very things should be considered for balancing of these ships, ignoring what other ships offer or perform can result in duplication and unecessary overlap between ships. In addition, performance of ships and strategies of their use also has the same apply to it.
Not sure how long you've tracked the thread, but its gone into this cycle numerous times already lol, even the earlier discussion with mission completion times etc has been discussed hundreds of pages prior. |
|

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
134
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:00:00 -
[7001] - Quote
Outz Xacto wrote:Quote:If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other. Some of it is some pretty broad concepts though, I wouldn't say the hulls are balanced well based off an argument between people about what drones to use lol. True. But I would assume that any remaining marauder vs pirate hull balance issues could be addressed when the pirate hulls get their balance pass. |

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:06:00 -
[7002] - Quote
Before the changes to faction BS a CNR was the far better CM ship, it had the higher damage output with CMs compared to the golem while it had massive issues mounting torps + tank + speed mod. Overall if you did want to utilize torpedoes properly the ship you did fly was the Golem(if you did want CMs, then you flown a CNR, because it was plain better at it). Funny enough, by the speed buff to the CNR it became the better torp ship already, since the Golem lacks speed to get in range quick and this is probably it's main downside(and it get speed nerfed with the changes). Overall it got the fitting to mount torps + prop mod + active tank, the painter bonus what is necessary for torps and with T2 resists + active tanking bonus the ability to duke it out a close range(at least till a point where you get sufficient skilled, then the dps solves all your problems for you).
From my experience flying the marauders, Kronos is a pure sentry+rail platform(it got beaten at blasters by the Vinid, and it is comedy gold with the changes, using blasters as a static ship), however I don't mind since it did offer a fairly good compromise betten speed, range and med range dps(not so much with the changes, since it loses speed and sentry dps). Golem is a close range extreme high gank ship, if you don't fit it that way, the CNR is plain better, the Vargur is like a bit heavier tanked Mach with a lot of downsides and no real niche(except ammo efficiently and high end tank fittings that are not useful for most content). With little surprise the Paladin is the best marauder, it can work fully gank fitted, utilizing sentry's, 90% webbing and mwd or high tach dps at medium range with sentry support(again nerfed by the band wide and speed changes).
Overall roles are restricted by the alternatives, Golem and Vargur are down to close range weapons, by fitting advantages mostly, Kronos is down to long range, because it can do it better than the vindi, that is plain better than it at close. Paladin is the exception, it can do both very good and even in extreme competitive scenarios like Incs it could hold it's niche against other armor ships(by combining powerful webing with high range) and it manages to break even against the overall best dps/utility platform in the game(the nightmare). This is from the perspective of somebody that flown both hulls in 5B+ fittings under contest, where dps on the target is everything and utilizing your platform up to maximum efficiency is required.
Tsukinosuke wrote:Jill Antaris wrote:Btw Angels don't jam they paint. please dont be so cocky, as if you are perfect..
It should be common knowledge to anybody that does pve a bit more serious. Especially since jamming is such a big problem on marauders.
Anize Oramara wrote:POS forum ate my post :(
Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.
It is going to be glorious and I can't wait
FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?
It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.
Yes I did, since I actually compared speed with both hulls doing stuff while moving the hulls around in the content. Given I did run some L4s with my current Vargur I really hate the speed, it simply goes way to fast and clicking the shield booster a few times with my 2 slot tank is way to much work, so overall the new marauders will be better.
Is is really this hard to believe that the people that want to fly her old marauders flown the hulls quite a bit and are not satisfied with the changes? |

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:07:00 -
[7003] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: If you want to play with the impact of drones: An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.
Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.
and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage. a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it.
i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed
btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder....
|

Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:15:00 -
[7004] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Outz Xacto wrote:Quote:If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other. Some of it is some pretty broad concepts though, I wouldn't say the hulls are balanced well based off an argument between people about what drones to use lol. True. But I would assume that any remaining marauder vs pirate hull balance issues could be addressed when the pirate hulls get their balance pass.
Correct though there are examples like with the Golem, where the comparison is not even pirate vessels, RNI. I can't put to much weight to my words on every specific ship under the stars, and frankly I think some ships are more balanced or balanced easier just due to their existing behavior.
I of course have my reservations about some of these changes, the hull changes, I am looking forward to. I think Bastion is a bit of a gimmick, and the design intent is incredibly contradictory to intelligent game play, I'll likely still use it when necessary. I just feel they could have done better at setting maraudars apart from other ships. I like some of the idea, but I think the implementation is poor. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:30:00 -
[7005] - Quote
Crappy resists, **** out of bastion still and
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 125
REALLY? I want my god damn Kronos to atleast be as good as it was pre-your-*******-stupid-rework of Marauders
This is BY FAR the worst rebalance approach done the last year.
Your "LOL BLASTERS MENY RANGE DPS" garbage doesn't work out in most situations due to stacking penalized bastion bonuses
And taking away a sentry from a ship that barely does acceptable dps is just pathetic and awful.
If you honestly think this is fine then I suggest we get a new dev to look at these ships.
When looking at their horrible performance out of bastion... Just get a new dev anyway. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:32:00 -
[7006] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:POS forum ate my post :(
Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.
It is going to be glorious and I can't wait
FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?
It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.
I have tested on EFT and on SiSi
you do realize that the vargur has always been able to eat frigs with half/single gun volleys and reliably 1 shot low tanked cruisers. It even has a significant amount of overkill tied to it with ACs and while bastioned you lose the ability to use your mobility to lower the angular of your target.....
tracking is already very high on the vargur. vs battleships, bastioned vargur with 3 SS TC (all tracking) vs a tq vargur with 2 SS TCs (1 tracking, 1 optimal) (both using ambit and 1 RF TE) the bastioned vargur gains ~20 dps over the tq vargur, that progressively declines out til the advantage is gone at around the 30KM mark
bastioned with 3 ss tc (2 tracking 1 optimal) vs tq with 2 ss tc (both optimal) the benefits are ~15dps at 20km and the benefit is lost at ~25km
Already discussed bastioned w/ 3 optimal vs tq with 2 optimal
granted, this is also assuming that the tq vargur is stationary and not taking advantage of its mobility via closing distances or reducing angular.
I will and have always planned on using the vargur on rubicon for ewar missions and certain missions like serp Massive Attack, that really benefit from being able to MJD often. but given the looting structure, drone bandwidth reduction, mobility/dmg reduction, I will not be using it as my main mission runner if these are the changes. Mach was always better than the vargur at general clear times, it will now be able to loot as well, plus the vargur nerfs...
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 23:47:00 -
[7007] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:POS forum ate my post :(
Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.
It is going to be glorious and I can't wait
FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?
It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi. Since you tested it, what would you say about projectile ranges with Bastion vs without? For that matter, what sort of guns did you use and which ammo type(s)?
Well just did serpentis vengeance for the first time ever (Run sansha on TQ) and finished it in 35min including looting and salvaging 16mill worth of loot. I took full room aggro every room by nuking the frigs first. I made a few derp mistakes that cost me around 5 min since it's the first time running it but MJD away from left over frigs at the end is 100% viable. The destroyers orbiting at 12km I could blap without webs (2 tracking scripts).
This is without ANY bling whatsoever. This will be amazing with a gist X-type large and republic gyros. Heck maybe even a faction invul but it's obviously not needed.
Made 31mill and 7k LP
Fit: [Vargur, Anize Oramara's Vargur] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension II Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Salvage Drone I x5 Valkyrie II x5
Also hammerheads are effing useless against frigs. will the minmi mediums work better?
I killed the frigs first then launched salvage drones and told them to salvage (with nothing targeted, then proceeded to blap wile the wrecks got salvaged automatically, just picking up cans at the end.
Some additional stats with my skills as seen on sisi with bastion running 2X range scripts Tracking: 0.072 Range 79km
1range, 1 tracking (My default) Tracking: 0. 093 Range 74km
2 tracking (works amazing against serp and angels) Tracking 0.114 Range 67km (what I currently have on TQ)
Note that this is with a sebo fitted. I could replace that with another TC just as easily. Think the range goes up to 82km or tracking at 0.13 or something.
Basically your damage application shoots through the roof. End of story.
ps. serp loot/salvage suuuuuuuuucks. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 00:06:00 -
[7008] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If you want to play with the impact of drones: An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.
Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.
and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage. a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it. i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder....
The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.
I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.
The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur
In summary: TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned: mobile vs mobile = winner TQ mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
The vargur has been nerfed. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 00:31:00 -
[7009] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If you want to play with the impact of drones: An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.
Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.
and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage. a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it. i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder.... The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf. I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur. The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur In summary: TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned: mobile vs mobile = winner TQ mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ The vargur has been nerfed. You are wrong as I have shown in the post right above yours. The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.
Hell I didn't even use my drones since I get far more isk/m by simply having my salvage drones salvage while I shoot things. That's the whole point of the marauder. If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. The change is coming so everyone will have to adapt or switch over to pirate BS. Gankers would prefer that to be honest as I don't need a SINGLE bling module to full room tank vengeance and apparently angel extrav bonus room while your pirate BS still needs plenty of bling. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
409
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 00:53:00 -
[7010] - Quote
It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 00:54:00 -
[7011] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: You are wrong as I have shown in the post right above yours. The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.
Hell I didn't even use my drones since I get far more isk/m by simply having my salvage drones salvage while I shoot things. That's the whole point of the marauder. If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. The change is coming so everyone will have to adapt or switch over to pirate BS. Gankers would prefer that to be honest as I don't need a SINGLE bling module to full room tank vengeance and apparently angel extrav bonus room while your pirate BS still needs plenty of bling.
only you are very incorrect.
i might also reference your comment in relation to the mission you tested (Vengeance):
Anize Oramara wrote: ... I made a few derp mistakes that cost me around 5 min since it's the first time running it ...
TQ vargur tears that mission to shreds already, but because that was your first time playing that mission ever, you wouldnt have known that. Also, about your "fit" MJD is not needed on that mission and ab is a better choice, esp in room 3. Also, you are going way overkill on the falloff. switch rigs to burst II ambit I. I'd make a comment about the sensor booster, but options are very limited for this extra slot, so whatever floats your boat xD.
EFT / paper stuff isnt everything, but neither is SISI testing by itself. esp when you dont even have a baseline tq vargur run to compare it with xD.
On paper, the vargur is worse. in practice the vargur is worse (save ewar / rare missions that need more than 1 mjd every 3 mins). Run the mission on the tq vargur as well an you will see. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 05:55:00 -
[7012] - Quote
I clock in at 40 minutes running the serp vengeance in my TQ Kronos, but mostly because i do a full salvage and leave the last bits to drones while i set up the next netflix episode, Were i to do a better salvage and loot sort i would finish at around 25-30 minutes. In my TQ vargur, Ive never timed it but it always feels faster.
When you tried it on SISI did you Bastion? or run it like a TQ Vargur? Why are you attempting to benchmark performance using only the prototype?
The bastion offers nothing that i need, with drawbacks that do not entice me to use it. Where are all of the things that people have been actually asking for in Marauders? Most significantly, where is the higher scan resolution and base sensor strength?
I do not generally use all of the bandwith on my Kronos or vargur, as i am always moving sentries do not make sense. with a module that immobilizes me like the bastion, sentries would make sense but with the addition of the bastion module in rubicon, so goes the ability to as effectively use sentries.
there are a bunch of missions where i would love to not get jammed as much as i do, but i have never once thought that it would be better if i used blasters and been immobile (on a kronos).
Its simply a bad idea, that yet again CCP will push out anyway because no one there has the fortitude to tell the art department that they cant find a role for the half finished animations they produced.
Anize Orama wrote: If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. Excel to do exactly the same in a different play style while gaining nothing but a higher vulnerability to gankers.
I see a lot of features in Rubicon but none of the things that people have been asking for.
Where are the modular POS updates? Where are the Corp Roles revamp? Where is the (optional) ******* off button for clouds?
Anize wrote: The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.
Citation needed Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 07:04:00 -
[7013] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Mer88 wrote:Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon
the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.
You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers. you sound like one of those who mix pvp and pve up just to get a point accross. why are you bringin tornado into the mix? how exactly is malestorm better than a vargur in the expansion? vargur got falloff bonus and bastion give more optimal and falloff.
The changes are mainly to make the vargur usable in a non pve scenario. this is what i read around here, but not what i think is good for the ship.
I love pvp, it's the only thing keeping me playing this game, but i never thought "i want my vargur in pvp". For nearly every situation i could use a vargur, one of the prior mentioned artillery ships do the job much better.
I actually used both, the maelstrom and the tornado in pvp. I once used a vargur with 800s in a station game scenario with an insanely high amount of neutral rr.
From what i experience now I would never ever use the bastion version of vargur in pvp. especially a 1400s version of it becomes a dead fish atm it goes into beastion.
"He's in bastion. get the scanner drones out and warp a ceptor into close range"
If you want a mobile arty platform you will buy 10 Tornados for one vargur and if you want a buffer tanked RR supported arty boat you use a mael.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8388
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 07:56:00 -
[7014] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards.
Three kronos and two golems are on their way to null for me as we speak. |

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 09:01:00 -
[7015] - Quote
I tested the 4x faction gyro Arty Vargur in "Gone Berserk" lvl 4. I thought it will be nice for an arty boat. But with
less than 600DPS
It is so boring and slow. While I was always in optimal range with this ammunition (rf titanium sabot) i did nearly no damage. How much does a T2 railgun fitted Kronos do here? |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
199
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 09:16:00 -
[7016] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards. Three kronos and two golems are on their way to null for me as we speak.
A shame that all of use do not have the same degree of enthusiasm. I can't really vouch for their PVP capabilities, but nor can I really say I doubt they could work well enough. If nothing else, I wish you the best of luck and happy hunting.
I intend to use them for L4's (though, I will keep hold on my CNR as an alternate) and, while I don't think bastion offers me anything really all that great, I've already thought of a few areas in L4s at least where it would be better to at least carry one even if I intend not to use it. I also have noticed that many of the various fits in Pyfa I've come up with are at least half a billion isk cheaper than my current TQ ones, so there's a plus at least. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
620
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 09:20:00 -
[7017] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: If you want to play with the impact of drones: An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.
Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.
and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage. a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it. i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder.... The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf. I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur. The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur In summary: TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned: mobile vs mobile = winner TQ mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ The vargur has been nerfed. You are wrong as I have shown in the post right above yours. The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over. Hell I didn't even use my drones since I get far more isk/m by simply having my salvage drones salvage while I shoot things. That's the whole point of the marauder. If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. The change is coming so everyone will have to adapt or switch over to pirate BS. Gankers would prefer that to be honest as I don't need a SINGLE bling module to full room tank vengeance and apparently angel extrav bonus room while your pirate BS still needs plenty of bling.
sorry but no. Any good vargur pilto knows hwo to use its superior speed (in TQ) to cancel transversal of enemy and apply a LOT more dps.
Rubicon vargur is much weaker than the TQ one by mobility nerf alone.
The only marauder that got better on l4 (but worse on incursions) is the paladin because now it can abuse pulse lasers. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country
8389
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 09:38:00 -
[7018] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards. Three kronos and two golems are on their way to null for me as we speak. A shame that all of use do not have the same degree of enthusiasm. I can't really vouch for their PVP capabilities, but nor can I really say I doubt they could work well enough. If nothing else, I wish you the best of luck and happy hunting. I intend to use them for L4's (though, I will keep hold on my CNR as an alternate) and, while I don't think bastion offers me anything really all that great, I've already thought of a few areas in L4s at least where it would be better to at least carry one even if I intend not to use it. I also have noticed that many of the various fits in Pyfa I've come up with are at least half a billion isk cheaper than my current TQ ones, so there's a plus at least. Edit: that reminds me.....how well does this thing hold up to disconnects? I heard they don't (the bastion mod) permit e-warps due to dropped connections.
1 kronos for anoms (the blasters will out do everything but a very expensive sheild vindi)
2x kronos for pvp, I may need a 4th as a sheild nano kronos is looking nice for cruiser AB gangs but I want to work on this a bit more to see how well I can adapt it to different fleets.
2x golem for solo/small gang vs frigs and cruisers. |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
208
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:39:00 -
[7019] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:I tested the 4x faction gyro Arty Vargur in "Gone Berserk" lvl 4. I thought it will be nice for an arty boat. But with
less than 600DPS
It is so boring and slow. While I was always in optimal range with this ammunition (rf titanium sabot) i did nearly no damage. How much does a T2 railgun fitted Kronos do here?
My current kronos needs about 6 minutes(warpin/warpout) for the gone berserk and does 1149 dps @ 47+49(FN antimatter + garde II, all 5 + slot 9 5% damage imp). I play tested the first iteration with the massive speed nerf and it took 2 minutes longer, doing the same thing with rails(combination of less speed and dps).
Btw, it will go faster with phased plasma or emp, dump everything(all TCs and at least one Rig slot) into tracking and move the hull in advance to a position where it can hit everything well/gives you enough time before stuff gets under artillery tracking. Since you get 5s painters with the changes, it might be feasible to use one instead of the 3. TC(before the changes, when you did need the highest tracking to kill small suff, you also needed to split the guns, what was not effective with only 1 painter).
Kagura Nikon wrote: The only marauder that got better on l4 (but worse on incursions) is the paladin because now it can abuse pulse lasers.
It can use puls fine atm, you just fit a mwd and the web helps you covering point blank, what is kind of unavoidable since you can't hit the small stuff good if you mwd in the direction and to not lose the dps you swap around the kill order, starting with BS then trying to take out small stuff that you can still hit. When you stoped and deployed sentrys you web down the frigs(takes around 15s each) and then kill them with the guns. But then again the navy apoc is so much quicker on the feet and got the tracking bonus that allows it to hit while mwding around(with 2 TCs scripted to tracking), so I rarely bothered with the paladin for L4 after the changes to navy BS in L4(I still love .
I always found it hilarious that people empathize scorch so much, given that EM is probably the worst damage type in pve if you don't shoot super EM weak rats and Tachs do much better across the board(enough alpha to one volley even BCs, high thermal damage at medium range, and higher dps) on every hull that can fit them without to much RCUs(with the exception of angels maybe since you want the extra puls tracking and conflag for the higher thermal damage).
Since I still didn't get a answer on it, is it really that hard to do a copy/paste job and leave the old marauders as a 2. marauder ship in game, it is not like writing in 4 new names in the DB would be hard and it would make a lot of people happy that prefer to fly her marauders without bastion and mjd and actually do like the web bonuses and the speed. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
622
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:51:00 -
[7020] - Quote
Also I still do nto get, why the vargur was speed nerfed 4 times more than the other 3.
Why so much hate for the conceptual speed advantage of minmatar?
Why not remove all drones from gallente then? Woudl be same thing. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
208
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 11:30:00 -
[7021] - Quote
Because apparently moving the hull around does not fall into the dev idea how to do pve, what is standing around and providing noob friendly tanks and the mjd fixes everything. "shrugs"
I do agree that the speed changes to the vargur are overall hurting the hull a lot(for people that actually use a mwd on it) and the Kronos with only 50m-¦ is also far less attractive as sentry/rail ship(like flying a sentry rail ship with 120 dps from sentry's that can't even hit at close any more).
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 12:33:00 -
[7022] - Quote
Can't test myself at the moment, but does anyone know if NOS still works on NPCs?
I'd like to fit a Vargur with 2 Heavy NOS (thanks to the added PG) to be able to use a MWD and keep capacitor running. Maybe that would make up for the loss of speed.
What do you think? |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 12:44:00 -
[7023] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Edit: that reminds me.....how well does this thing hold up to disconnects? I heard they don't (the bastion mod) permit e-warps due to dropped connections.
yeah, that may be a big problem..
Julie Thorne wrote:In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.
1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.
2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.
3. Extra tank is unnecessary.
Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.
4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.
So I have 3 suggestions.
1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.
3. Give some or all of the speed back.
honest, you seem confused. waste a mid slot for bastion on barely shield tank ship? more speed to hull but you know bastion mode speed is 0m/s? the new eden life is not only lv4 missions, please remember.. after all, i might not understand your post correct..
you answer yourself below, if you were in Matar space, you would use T2 ammo..
Julie Thorne wrote: 1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.
Julie Thorne wrote: 1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 13:50:00 -
[7024] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:Can't test myself at the moment, but does anyone know if NOS still works on NPCs?
I'd like to fit a Vargur with 2 Heavy NOS (thanks to the added PG) to be able to use a MWD and keep capacitor running. Maybe that would make up for the loss of speed.
What do you think?
I've not tried it as of late but I'm sure it "works", you won't ever really have a situation where you'll need to use them, also you have to be below 3800 cap to leech anything from BS's as that is their capacitor size I believe.
I'm trying to get CCP to acknowledge the need for launcher hardpoints so we can use the high slots for something useful in L4 PvE, not that it makes much of a difference dps wise but at least we'd get something pretty flying around and visually enjoyable, 3-4x RHML or 3-4x RLML could possibly be useful for something... marginally.
Tractor beams will possibly be redundant due to the deployable tractor/looter thing.
Salvagers are no longer needed due to salvage drones.
Neuts are not for PvE and are hazardous to use anyway.
Autotargeters...
Drone links aren't needed as the only drones used will be light/salvage and Vargur is mostly used in <60km with AC's anyway.
Fitting RR will be of no use since there are no drones to actually repair.
Currently on live I use 2x drone links and 1x tractor beam, only the tractor beam is somewhat useful for pulling mission loot sometimes.
I actually don't know what to use the high slots for in Rubicon either... there really aren't any useful modules I can think of for L4 PvE. NOS is possibly the best(still horrible) for any kind of 'oh ****' effect in PvE, yet I'm sure you won't need them at all, you really have to consciously try to get in trouble to find a reliable use for them.
One possible solution is to use the high slots as heat sinks for overheating the guns, that does send a clear message though doesn't it. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 15:26:00 -
[7025] - Quote
it seems they ninja buffed the marauder again.
i noticed the kronos got 125 bay 50 bandwidth now. Also the ships all got mass reduced by alot. They only nerf is the slight speed reduced but being a railgun kronos with sentries why do you even need to move? |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 15:31:00 -
[7026] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote: 1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
[/quote]
i agree with this falloff should always double optimal range just like a tracking computer |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
411
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 16:12:00 -
[7027] - Quote
Sure, 50% Bastion falloff is fine if we can get a +25% flight time as well for missiles. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 16:16:00 -
[7028] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Because apparently moving the hull around does not fall into the dev idea how to do pve, what is standing around and providing noob friendly tanks and the mjd fixes everything. "shrugs"
I do agree that the speed changes to the vargur are overall hurting the hull a lot(for people that actually use a mwd on it) and the Kronos with only 50m-¦ is also far less attractive as sentry/rail ship(like flying a sentry rail ship with 120 dps from sentry's that can't even hit at close any more).
Though the runiation of the armour Marauders in Incursions with these changes is well-documented, it will be quite interesting to see how CCP deals with the cries out outrage when this ship class nerf hits all the mission-runners who don't read the forums.
Frankly, given CCP's hatred of its own high sec customer base, not much will happen. and they will ignore the inevitable many many post Nov 19th threads complaining how the ship class was wrecked.
And the vast majority of people still have not clued in how badly nerfed all BS based income is with the warp speed nerf. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 16:20:00 -
[7029] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Sure, 50% Bastion falloff is fine if we can get a +25% flight time as well for missiles. 25% still wont help torps to beat that 50km mark you need a 30/30% buff to get over it |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
411
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 16:20:00 -
[7030] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Though the runiation of the armour Marauders in Incursions with these changes is well-documented, it will be quite interesting to see how CCP deals with the cries out outrage when this ship class nerf hits all the mission-runners who don't read the forums.
Frankly, given CCP's hatred of its own high sec customer base, not much will happen. and they will ignore the inevitable many many post Nov 19th threads complaining how the ship class was wrecked.
And the vast majority of people still have not clued in how badly nerfed all BS based income is with the warp speed nerf. Winter is coming... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 16:57:00 -
[7031] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Sure, 50% Bastion falloff is fine if we can get a +25% flight time as well for missiles. 25% still wont help torps to beat that 50km mark you need a 30/30% buff to get over it
give 15% optimal and 30% falloff is better than 25%/25% which makes paladin and kronos op and vargur garbage. golem doesnt need change imo. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
411
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:12:00 -
[7032] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:25% still wont help torps to beat that 50km mark you need a 30/30% buff to get over it I'd give it all up for 15-25% damage boost instead. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Xamiakas
Drama Club
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:14:00 -
[7033] - Quote
all bs 5`s CHECK MArauder 5 CHECK
Bring it, ladies! :D <-- unbelievably low tollerance to stupidity in people. That + you being your mother's child might aswell be the main reason why i am NOT your father. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
412
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:20:00 -
[7034] - Quote
Xamiakas wrote:all bs 5`s CHECK Marauder 5 CHECK Bring it, ladies! :D Kudos. Can't justify Marauders myself, as I'm going to wait and see how badly battleships fare after Rubicon. Hope looked slim for our heroes... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:22:00 -
[7035] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Sure, 50% Bastion falloff is fine if we can get a +25% flight time as well for missiles. 25% still wont help torps to beat that 50km mark you need a 30/30% buff to get over it give 15% optimal and 30% falloff is better than 25%/25% which makes paladin and kronos op and vargur garbage. golem doesnt need change imo. zzzz thats how i feel when people ask me how is the golem better then RNI with cruise spec >_> i wouldnt call that perfectly fine
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
623
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:37:00 -
[7036] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Current stats are:
100m3 volume When deployed has storage of 27000m3 (just slightly less than a jetcan) 125km tractor range Can tractor one target at a time.
Posted by Fozzie on the test server forums.
looks like marauder tractors bonus is dead...
Edit...
Oh, and they don't get targeted by NPCs, and they can be trolled with damps and such.. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:56:00 -
[7037] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Current stats are:
100m3 volume When deployed has storage of 27000m3 (just slightly less than a jetcan) 125km tractor range Can tractor one target at a time. Posted by Fozzie on the test server forums. looks like marauder tractors bonus is dead... Edit... Oh, and they don't get targeted by NPCs, and they can be trolled with damps and such.. derp derp never mind, i should've read first lol Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
624
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:01:00 -
[7038] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Current stats are:
100m3 volume When deployed has storage of 27000m3 (just slightly less than a jetcan) 125km tractor range Can tractor one target at a time. Posted by Fozzie on the test server forums. looks like marauder tractors bonus is dead... Edit... Oh, and they don't get targeted by NPCs, and they can be trolled with damps and such.. 1 at a time, but at regular 600m/s speed. I think a non-bastion 2-tractor 2-salvager +salvager drones setup will be faster than waiting for a wreck at 60km be pulled at 600m/s, even more so if it's further. Granted, if you can carry 10 of those, drop several per room, and then comeback to pick everything up, could be faster.
I shall answer you with another CCP Fozzie quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:You can scoop and reuse it. If you scoop it while it has items in the cargo, it will spawn a jetcan with those items which you can then loot what you'd like from.
Tractor speed is currently set at 2000m/s, but very well may change. We're aiming to tune it as a useful item but still leave value to be gained by going with a marauder or noctis tractoring instead. The key advantage of using a ship or course is the option to use more than one tractor beam at once.
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:04:00 -
[7039] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Serge SC wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Current stats are:
100m3 volume When deployed has storage of 27000m3 (just slightly less than a jetcan) 125km tractor range Can tractor one target at a time. Posted by Fozzie on the test server forums. looks like marauder tractors bonus is dead... Edit... Oh, and they don't get targeted by NPCs, and they can be trolled with damps and such.. 1 at a time, but at regular 600m/s speed. I think a non-bastion 2-tractor 2-salvager +salvager drones setup will be faster than waiting for a wreck at 60km be pulled at 600m/s, even more so if it's further. Granted, if you can carry 10 of those, drop several per room, and then comeback to pick everything up, could be faster. I shall answer you with another CCP Fozzie quote CCP Fozzie wrote:You can scoop and reuse it. If you scoop it while it has items in the cargo, it will spawn a jetcan with those items which you can then loot what you'd like from.
Tractor speed is currently set at 2000m/s, but very well may change. We're aiming to tune it as a useful item but still leave value to be gained by going with a marauder or noctis tractoring instead. The key advantage of using a ship or course is the option to use more than one tractor beam at once. Yeah, just read it. I should've before posting.
That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
625
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:08:00 -
[7040] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:Yeah, just read it. I should've before posting.
That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless...
about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
413
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:08:00 -
[7041] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... Entirely useless. Just deploy 8 of these (only 400m3 of cargo space). Have we finished completely screwing up the Marauder up yet?
Joe Risalo wrote:about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot. Maybe you can use it to tractor the deployable structures around, lol.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
625
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:13:00 -
[7042] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Serge SC wrote:That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... Entirely useless. Just deploy 8 of these (only 400m3 of cargo space). Have we finished completely screwing up the Marauder up yet? Joe Risalo wrote:about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot. Maybe you can use it to tractor the deployable structures around, lol. 
They're 100m3 per structure, and to be able to tractor a tractor would be awesome, lol |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:14:00 -
[7043] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Serge SC wrote:That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... Entirely useless. Just deploy 8 of these (only 400m3 of cargo space). Have we finished completely screwing up the Marauder up yet? [/quote] It said 100m3. But carry 8, 800m3. We have 1150 cargohold. The Paladin needs only around 20m3 of cargo. Say 850m3 with scripts and whatnot. You have 300m3 for salvage.
Joe Risalo wrote:about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot. Maybe you can use it to tractor the deployable structures around, lol. [/quote]
I was thinking, can we tractor them? If so, that'd be so funny just having your ship with a short tail of structures lol Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:29:00 -
[7044] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:They're 100m3 per structure, and to be able to tractor a tractor would be awesome, lol I guess that's increased since the original estimate of 50m3. Yeah, just trying to think 'outside the box' here... hehe.
Serge SC wrote:It said 100m3. But carry 8, 800m3. We have 1150 cargohold. The Paladin needs only around 20m3 of cargo. Say 850m3 with scripts and whatnot. You have 300m3 for salvage.
I was thinking, can we tractor them? If so, that'd be so funny just having your ship with a short tail of structures lol Well, 4 anyway (that still leaves close to 800m3 for cargo space). 4 automated tractor beams vs. 2 manual ones, hmmmm... Might as well just give the Marauders a salvage distance/cycle/% bonus - because I seriously doubt anyone will actually put tractors on Marauders post-Rubicon (unless it's for tractoring the tractor structure around).
These new structures are going to be ripe for abuse. I'm already imagining semi-permanent low-sec gate camps with the refit structures... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:38:00 -
[7045] - Quote
Right so next mission tested, one I am far more familiar with, sansha blackade.
This mission almost made me rage quit when they introduced TD. It takes me around an hour or more with multiple warp outs on TQ at the moment WITH a MWD fitted and 1 tracking comp, a gist x-type large and 3 hardener tank.
Something to keep in mind I am only a 30mill character I do NOT have max skills. Salvage drone 4, marauder 3, shield compensation 4 and missing quite a few gunnery 5s as well as a capacitor skill or two.
Now the fit I used on sisi is: [Vargur, Sansha Blockade] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension II Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Hobgoblin II x10 Salvage Drone I x5 Tracking Speed Script x3 Republic Fleet EMP L x8560
End result: 25minutes Isk+Loot+salvage: 35 377 375 (11 797 625 first tick) Rounds used: 1404 (around 1.5mill worth)
I would be genuinely interested to hear if someone has better stats than those. You'd prolly have to do it in a cruise golem because of TD.
You know what's the funniest thing? I STILL didn't do it optimally because I am still stuck in that old lv4 mentality of having to watch my triggers. Screw the triggers. In fact shoot the triggers first. If I had I wouldn't have had to MJD AT ALL because they orbit at around 44-47km. Heck I could have fit a sensor booster or something (TP? lol) in its place and would have been shotting more shaving a few minutes off my total time.
Also, and hee's the best part, my salvage drones were salvaging faster than I could kill and tracktor the wrecks hahahahahahahah.
ps. large and XL T2 shield booster have exactly the same shield boost/cap but the large is less dangerous to forget on.
omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission  |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 19:16:00 -
[7046] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission  It does.
A tach bastioned paladin destroys everything in that mission. No need for MJD or MWD. It becomes so easy, but that's because of the high DPS and EMP main damage.
Only reason I moved was to get closer to the wrecks to salvage them. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators Illuminantur Dominium Sicarioum
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 19:18:00 -
[7047] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:*snip a wall-o'-text* omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission 
Well, Paladin, Kronos OR Vargur will absolutely _murder_ this mission with bastion:
Warp in @0 -> Bastion -> Shoot triggers -> Warp out , even with "just average" skills the completion time will be sub 5 minutes, I can actually do it in ~3 with a bastioned rail kronos
Sure you miss out bounties etc, but you don't do it for the ISK, you do it for LP. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 19:42:00 -
[7048] - Quote
DTson Gauur wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:*snip a wall-o'-text* omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission  Well, Paladin, Kronos OR Vargur will absolutely _murder_ this mission with bastion: Warp in @0 -> Bastion -> Shoot triggers -> Warp out , even with "just average" skills the completion time will be sub 5 minutes, I can actually do it in ~3 with a bastioned rail kronos Sure you miss out bounties etc, but you don't do it for the ISK, you do it for LP. I do it for the isk and loot personally so YMMV.
Ok second mission, Dread Pirate Scarlet mwahaha! (I fubared it and didn't kill her in the 3rd room :( )
So same fit as last one actually (Identical) Room 1: Serps Room 2: Gurista Room 3: Serp Room 4: Angle + Serp
Full clear, full salvage: 37min Isk + Loot + Salvage: 52 182 126 (I missed out on 5mill bounty and a potential implant) LP: 6888 Rounds used: 1.5k Phased 164 Fusion, all faction so around 1.7mill
The MJD was amazing in the last room (Landed at 0 on the serp spawn point lol) and I even managed to land a perfect 2 jump onto the gate in room 2 and 3.
Also interesting thing! If a gate is 70km away, you will most likely land within 5km of it aiming straight for it because gates have such huge hitboxes. So really when it comes to gates a gate can be anywhere from 75km-125km away and you will land on 0km.
Yea... I think I made my point but I can do more if you guys want :)
|

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3375
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 19:48:00 -
[7049] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Though the runiation of the armour Marauders in Incursions with these changes is well-documented, it will be quite interesting to see how CCP deals with the cries out outrage when this ship class nerf hits all the mission-runners who don't read the forums.
Frankly, given CCP's hatred of its own high sec customer base, not much will happen. and they will ignore the inevitable many many post Nov 19th threads complaining how the ship class was wrecked.
And the vast majority of people still have not clued in how badly nerfed all BS based income is with the warp speed nerf.
Good thing then they will be no 'cries of outrage' as any normal person could trivially thrown it into any l4 and come out unscathed.
Warp speed nerf? In hisec? I mean, really now?
e: Poster above, why did you say you missed the bounty? I understand about the implant but you get the bounty after you kill her in the final room, right? Or am I being stupid today... |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
626
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:14:00 -
[7050] - Quote
Common guys, the topic has changed.
We're on the new tractor structure now, lol... |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:19:00 -
[7051] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:DTson Gauur wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:*snip a wall-o'-text* omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission  Well, Paladin, Kronos OR Vargur will absolutely _murder_ this mission with bastion: Warp in @0 -> Bastion -> Shoot triggers -> Warp out , even with "just average" skills the completion time will be sub 5 minutes, I can actually do it in ~3 with a bastioned rail kronos Sure you miss out bounties etc, but you don't do it for the ISK, you do it for LP. I do it for the isk and loot personally so YMMV. Ok second mission, Dread Pirate Scarlet mwahaha! (I fubared it and didn't kill her in the 3rd room :( ) So same fit as last one actually (Identical) Room 1: Serps Room 2: Gurista Room 3: Serp Room 4: Angle + Serp Full clear, full salvage: 37min Isk + Loot + Salvage: 52 182 126 (I missed out on 5mill bounty and a potential implant) LP: 6888 Rounds used: 1.5k Phased 164 Fusion, all faction so around 1.7mill The MJD was amazing in the last room (Landed at 0 on the serp spawn point lol) and I even managed to land a perfect 2 jump onto the gate in room 2 and 3. Also interesting thing! If a gate is 70km away, you will most likely land within 5km of it aiming straight for it because gates have such huge hitboxes. So really when it comes to gates a gate can be anywhere from 75km-125km away and you will land on 0km. Yea... I think I made my point but I can do more if you guys want :) the only point you have made is that u are able to complete missions in a vargur. Gratz? What point r u trying to make exactly?
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:20:00 -
[7052] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Common guys, the topic has changed.
We're on the new tractor structure now, lol... Don't need it lol. 3 tractor 2s and 5 salavge dornes, even at lv 4 is more than you will ever need. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:21:00 -
[7053] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:DTson Gauur wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:*snip a wall-o'-text* omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission  Well, Paladin, Kronos OR Vargur will absolutely _murder_ this mission with bastion: Warp in @0 -> Bastion -> Shoot triggers -> Warp out , even with "just average" skills the completion time will be sub 5 minutes, I can actually do it in ~3 with a bastioned rail kronos Sure you miss out bounties etc, but you don't do it for the ISK, you do it for LP. I do it for the isk and loot personally so YMMV. Ok second mission, Dread Pirate Scarlet mwahaha! (I fubared it and didn't kill her in the 3rd room :( ) So same fit as last one actually (Identical) Room 1: Serps Room 2: Gurista Room 3: Serp Room 4: Angle + Serp Full clear, full salvage: 37min Isk + Loot + Salvage: 52 182 126 (I missed out on 5mill bounty and a potential implant) LP: 6888 Rounds used: 1.5k Phased 164 Fusion, all faction so around 1.7mill The MJD was amazing in the last room (Landed at 0 on the serp spawn point lol) and I even managed to land a perfect 2 jump onto the gate in room 2 and 3. Also interesting thing! If a gate is 70km away, you will most likely land within 5km of it aiming straight for it because gates have such huge hitboxes. So really when it comes to gates a gate can be anywhere from 75km-125km away and you will land on 0km. Yea... I think I made my point but I can do more if you guys want :) the only point you have made is that u are able to complete missions in a vargur. Gratz? What point r u trying to make exactly? Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:32:00 -
[7054] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Don't need it lol. 3 tractor 2s and 5 salavge dornes, even at lv 4 is more than you will ever need. Didn't Bill Gates famously say something similar about memory? 
Anize Oramara wrote:Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all. Do it with a Golem. And torpedoes. Then you'll have earned my respect. Marauders aren't a total failure, they're just suck "lite".  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:33:00 -
[7055] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:DTson Gauur wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:*snip a wall-o'-text* omg I just had a thought. The paladin will absolutely OWN this mission  Well, Paladin, Kronos OR Vargur will absolutely _murder_ this mission with bastion: Warp in @0 -> Bastion -> Shoot triggers -> Warp out , even with "just average" skills the completion time will be sub 5 minutes, I can actually do it in ~3 with a bastioned rail kronos Sure you miss out bounties etc, but you don't do it for the ISK, you do it for LP. I do it for the isk and loot personally so YMMV. Ok second mission, Dread Pirate Scarlet mwahaha! (I fubared it and didn't kill her in the 3rd room :( ) So same fit as last one actually (Identical) Room 1: Serps Room 2: Gurista Room 3: Serp Room 4: Angle + Serp Full clear, full salvage: 37min Isk + Loot + Salvage: 52 182 126 (I missed out on 5mill bounty and a potential implant) LP: 6888 Rounds used: 1.5k Phased 164 Fusion, all faction so around 1.7mill The MJD was amazing in the last room (Landed at 0 on the serp spawn point lol) and I even managed to land a perfect 2 jump onto the gate in room 2 and 3. Also interesting thing! If a gate is 70km away, you will most likely land within 5km of it aiming straight for it because gates have such huge hitboxes. So really when it comes to gates a gate can be anywhere from 75km-125km away and you will land on 0km. Yea... I think I made my point but I can do more if you guys want :) the only point you have made is that u are able to complete missions in a vargur. Gratz? What point r u trying to make exactly? Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all.
Quick vargur summary for 4s Rubicon vargur bastion fit great for high jam/damp
Rubicon vargur mjd bonus good for rare instances that require a jump more than once every 3 mins but could not otherwise be done with another form of prop.
A tq fit Rubicon vargur is better outside of these 2 instances because of mobility and stacking penalties
|

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
370
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:40:00 -
[7056] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Yea... I think I made my point but I can do more if you guys want :)
the only point you have made is that u are able to complete missions in a vargur. Gratz? What point r u trying to make exactly? Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all.
I missed the part where you are comparing this in any way to what you can already do on TQ. Perhaps You could post stats for what you were able to accomplish with the TQ Vargur in the same missions.
The lack of applicable content in your posts is rather sad to see, Similar to Joe Risalos constant posts about the new Golem while not having experience with the current version.
I must have missed your post where you answer all the previous questions i asked you.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:45:00 -
[7057] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all.
Quick vargur summary for 4s Rubicon vargur bastion fit great for high jam/damp Rubicon vargur mjd bonus good for rare instances that require a jump more than once every 3 mins but could not otherwise be done with another form of prop. A tq fit Rubicon vargur is better outside of these 2 instances because of mobility and stacking penalties Hahaha You missed so much - Only need T2 fit so 1) no more bling on your ship so it's cheaper and 2) No danger of random ganking to get at your shinies - Adaptable: A lot more tracking OR Range means I can match or exceed TQ vargur damage application without moving an inch or worrying about transversal - I can still fit a MWD or AB and only be marginally slower but with MJD it really isn't nessesary. Remember you can target and shoot WHILE MJD so I don't lose any damage dealing while doing the 1min 2 hop jump to get at a gate 30km away.
Face it, the nerfs are so minor and the flexibility and advantages so great that the Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation except where a pirate battleships is ALREADY better than the TQ vargur.
And this is with the VARGUR, arguably the weakest marauder. That is why I'm training for a paladin as that will beat the vargur plenty in amarr, gurista and serp space. Vargur will have the upper hand in angle space, probably but not sure if the golem will beat it there. Kronos will rock in serp and gurista space.
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
120
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:51:00 -
[7058] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Though the runiation of the armour Marauders in Incursions with these changes is well-documented, it will be quite interesting to see how CCP deals with the cries out outrage when this ship class nerf hits all the mission-runners who don't read the forums.
Frankly, given CCP's hatred of its own high sec customer base, not much will happen. and they will ignore the inevitable many many post Nov 19th threads complaining how the ship class was wrecked.
And the vast majority of people still have not clued in how badly nerfed all BS based income is with the warp speed nerf. Hellll-ooo... Earth to Dinsdale, Earth to Dinsdale. Put this whatever you're smoking down NOW!
Since my Kronos on SiSi gives noticeably higher ticks than my Kronos on TQ I don't feel nerfed.
I recognize your authority on running Incursions (it's benefit of doubt, but still) but if you're gonna speak for mission runners like me, please don't until you have some hard data to back it. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:58:00 -
[7059] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:- Only need T2 fit so 1) no more bling on your ship so it's cheaper and 2) No danger of random ganking to get at your shinies - Adaptable: A lot more tracking OR Range means I can match or exceed TQ vargur damage application without moving an inch or worrying about transversal - I can still fit a MWD or AB and only be marginally slower but with MJD it really isn't nessesary. Remember you can target and shoot WHILE MJD so I don't lose any damage dealing while doing the 1min 2 hop jump to get at a gate 30km away. Oh man... GÇó The "bling" is in the ship itself, ie: the $1-billion hull, skill books, training, etc. I can build "bling" a Raven for less than the sticker price of a Golem. GÇó Marginally slower? When a Scorpion starts lapping your Golem that's usually a subtle hint. GÇó Tracking or range... You mean like what the 3rd rig slot on any T1 or Faction hull would give? Or the extra low slot that the Ravens feature for a wide assortment of options? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
44
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 21:16:00 -
[7060] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all.
Quick vargur summary for 4s Rubicon vargur bastion fit great for high jam/damp Rubicon vargur mjd bonus good for rare instances that require a jump more than once every 3 mins but could not otherwise be done with another form of prop. A tq fit Rubicon vargur is better outside of these 2 instances because of mobility and stacking penalties Hahaha You missed so much - Only need T2 fit so 1) no more bling on your ship so it's cheaper and 2) No danger of random ganking to get at your shinies - Adaptable: A lot more tracking OR Range means I can match or exceed TQ vargur damage application without moving an inch or worrying about transversal - I can still fit a MWD or AB and only be marginally slower but with MJD it really isn't nessesary. Remember you can target and shoot WHILE MJD so I don't lose any damage dealing while doing the 1min 2 hop jump to get at a gate 30km away. Face it, the nerfs are so minor and the flexibility and advantages so great that the Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation except where a pirate battleships is ALREADY better than the TQ vargur. And this is with the VARGUR, arguably the weakest marauder. That is why I'm training for a paladin as that will beat the vargur plenty in amarr, gurista and serp space. Vargur will have the upper hand in angle space, probably but not sure if the golem will beat it there. Kronos will rock in serp and gurista space. One more thought: It doesn't ahve to be EITHER MWD OR MJD. You cna have both and use both in the same mission where applicable. It's this ADDED utility that makes it stand above the TQ marauders.
There is simply no point in this post other than paper numbers. I'm an all-time Vargur pilot. I simply disregard this post. Telling "Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation " is as same as telling you've not been playing Vargur in TQ for some time. If you've been playing with this ship long enough, you'd see there is no point telling any of the nerfs aren't worth that much.
At this point I'd like to ask these three most simple questions to you: - (Point of little/no difference) Exactly what benefit you get for missioning (properly, including salvaging) in Rubicon Marauder against TQ marauder, from the perspective of both ISK/hr and enjoyment? - (Point of nothing new) What is different from playing Sentry Dominix, with the proposed Vargur? Enemy ewar won't land you properly when you're 100km away anyway. - (Point of enjoyment) What makes you so happy with the Rubicon Marauder? Sniping? Or Sitting and bashing? |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 21:38:00 -
[7061] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Just shoving my foot up every doomsayer's ass is all.
Quick vargur summary for 4s Rubicon vargur bastion fit great for high jam/damp Rubicon vargur mjd bonus good for rare instances that require a jump more than once every 3 mins but could not otherwise be done with another form of prop. A tq fit Rubicon vargur is better outside of these 2 instances because of mobility and stacking penalties Hahaha You missed so much - Only need T2 fit so 1) no more bling on your ship so it's cheaper and 2) No danger of random ganking to get at your shinies - Adaptable: A lot more tracking OR Range means I can match or exceed TQ vargur damage application without moving an inch or worrying about transversal - I can still fit a MWD or AB and only be marginally slower but with MJD it really isn't nessesary. Remember you can target and shoot WHILE MJD so I don't lose any damage dealing while doing the 1min 2 hop jump to get at a gate 30km away. Face it, the nerfs are so minor and the flexibility and advantages so great that the Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation except where a pirate battleships is ALREADY better than the TQ vargur. And this is with the VARGUR, arguably the weakest marauder. That is why I'm training for a paladin as that will beat the vargur plenty in amarr, gurista and serp space. Vargur will have the upper hand in angle space, probably but not sure if the golem will beat it there. Kronos will rock in serp and gurista space. One more thought: It doesn't ahve to be EITHER MWD OR MJD. You cna have both and use both in the same mission where applicable. It's this ADDED utility that makes it stand above the TQ marauders. There is simply no point in this post other than paper numbers. I'm an all-time Vargur pilot. I simply disregard this post. Telling "Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation " is as same as telling you've not been playing Vargur in TQ for some time. If you've been playing with this ship long enough, you'd see there is no point telling any of the nerfs aren't worth that much. At this point I'd like to ask these three most simple questions to you: - (Point of little/no difference) Exactly what benefit you get for missioning (properly, including salvaging) in Rubicon Vargur against TQ Vargur, from the perspective of both ISK/hr and enjoyment? - (Point of nothing new) What is different from playing Sentry Dominix, with the proposed Vargur? Enemy ewar won't land you properly when you're 100km away anyway. - (Point of enjoyment) What makes you so happy with the Rubicon Marauder? Sniping? Or Sitting and bashing? Well ran scarlet again, made 82.4mill in 36min 
As to the enjoyment, as it is currently I'd say my enjoyment has at least been doubled with Rubicon Vargur. I've been running and plexing my 2 accounts with solo vargur for more than a year before I moved to a wh corp. I still run missions every now and then because a little bit is fun every now and then.
Don't have the drone skills to say regarding sentry domis. I hear they are very good in anoms but it's too passive for me, too boring.
It's a lot of things actually. The rapid redeployment with 1min MJD. The auto salvaging of my salvage drones (only have to tractor the wrecks) the sitting in a room and never having to worry about my tank again. The not having to fly around so I can focus on prioritising targets and grabbing wrecks. The opening of wreck and the huge isk ticks I've been getting (18mill, 15mill, 13 mill)
I'd probably be ok with plexing my account on running anoms if I was part of a null corp. Just sitting there nuking wave after wave of enemies (but with a bit more input than making sure my drones stay alive + the salvaging/looting at the same time. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 21:44:00 -
[7062] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:- Only need T2 fit so 1) no more bling on your ship so it's cheaper and 2) No danger of random ganking to get at your shinies - Adaptable: A lot more tracking OR Range means I can match or exceed TQ vargur damage application without moving an inch or worrying about transversal - I can still fit a MWD or AB and only be marginally slower but with MJD it really isn't nessesary. Remember you can target and shoot WHILE MJD so I don't lose any damage dealing while doing the 1min 2 hop jump to get at a gate 30km away. Oh man... GÇó The "bling" is in the ship itself, ie: the $1-billion hull, skill books, training, etc. I can build "bling" a Raven for less than the sticker price of a Golem. GÇó Marginally slower? When a Scorpion starts lapping your Golem that's usually a subtle hint. GÇó Tracking or range... You mean the the 3rd rig slot T1 or Faction battleship hulls have? Or the extra low or mid slot for a wide assortment of options?
Aaactually since I run two T2 range rigs + Bastion + the extra TC I'm ahead by at least 2 range increasing modules. Not to mention the extra versatility and adaptability (0.13 tracking for hitting those blaster serps and angle battleships, 82km range for hitting stuff that stays out at range)
Since most everything will still be alive by the time you get to the gate what does it matter if you're a tiny bit slower at getting to it? Also I can get to any gate within 200km in a minute (9sec if it's 75-100km away)
And heres the thing about "bling" and what I meant. A pirate BS is still a lot of money, a RNI is still a lot fo isk. but these need 500mill+ in bling. That makes a very juicy target. I pay the same but I don't need 500mill+ in modules to make the vargur work meaning all a ganker is going to get when he kills me is 10mill in T2 modules. Hence I am safe from gankers looking for isk while you are not :D |

zentary
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 22:00:00 -
[7063] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer: What for? The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC. [Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Target Painter II Large Micro Jump Drive 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector I Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 Tell me where i got an extra in this fitting. Everything i told was already with bastion. thanks for your senseless post. You made me a bit angry, i have to admit. Everything follows the same mechanics in eve. why not even try to put bastion to similar effects like other modules. Optimal bonus always leads to identical increase in applied damage, while fall-off bonus only increases damage on a ship specific scale.
now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 22:04:00 -
[7064] - Quote
zentary wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer: What for? The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC. [Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Target Painter II Large Micro Jump Drive 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector I Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 Tell me where i got an extra in this fitting. Everything i told was already with bastion. thanks for your senseless post. You made me a bit angry, i have to admit. Everything follows the same mechanics in eve. why not even try to put bastion to similar effects like other modules. Optimal bonus always leads to identical increase in applied damage, while fall-off bonus only increases damage on a ship specific scale. now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff What stuff exactly? The 4 fleet gyros (He shoudl be running 3 faction and a T2 really) You're saying you are going to scan him down in his mission and gank him with a couple of tornados where IF ALL 3-4 gyros drop you WONT EVEN BREAK EVEN?
Are you serious? Hahahahaha.
But yea, I don't think arty vargur is the way to go honestly. AC's are fine. |

zentary
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 22:07:00 -
[7065] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:zentary wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:For the sake of my beloved Vargur could the Bastion module get the same properties concerning optimal and fall off bonus then tracking computer and -enhancer: What for? The Bastion mod frees at least one mid slot for an additional TC. [Vargur, Tech2 copy 1] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Target Painter II Large Micro Jump Drive 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor II Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Ionic Field Projector I Warrior II x5 Bouncer II x2 Tell me where i got an extra in this fitting. Everything i told was already with bastion. thanks for your senseless post. You made me a bit angry, i have to admit. Everything follows the same mechanics in eve. why not even try to put bastion to similar effects like other modules. Optimal bonus always leads to identical increase in applied damage, while fall-off bonus only increases damage on a ship specific scale. now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff What stuff exactly? The 4 fleet gyros (He shoudl be running 3 faction and a T2 really) You're saying you are going to scan him down in his mission and gank him with a couple of tornados where IF ALL 3-4 gyros drop you WONT EVEN BREAK EVEN? Are you serious? Hahahahaha. But yea, I don't think arty vargur is the way to go honestly. AC's are fine.
lol why the heck would i use a tornado? few catalysts work just fine
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 22:17:00 -
[7066] - Quote
zentary wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:zentary wrote: now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff
What stuff exactly? The 4 fleet gyros (He shoudl be running 3 faction and a T2 really) You're saying you are going to scan him down in his mission and gank him with a couple of tornados where IF ALL 3-4 gyros drop you WONT EVEN BREAK EVEN? Are you serious? Hahahahaha. But yea, I don't think arty vargur is the way to go honestly. AC's are fine. lol why the heck would i use a tornado? few catalysts work just fine
A few catalysts?
What the strontium are you smoking?
No seriously are you on some kind of mind altering drug?
You realise that not ONLY can he rep 400+ RAW SHIELD HP per SECOND but he has 66% thermal and 71% kin resist on shields with over 10k shield buffer not to mention similar resists on armor with another 9k+ armor hp AAAAND 30% omni hull resists.
And you want to kill that with a couple of catas?
IN HIGH SEC?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |

warzonetemp
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 23:49:00 -
[7067] - Quote
Like the idea, it reminds me of Siege Mode for Dreads.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:07:00 -
[7068] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Aaactually since I run two T2 range rigs + Bastion + the extra TC I'm ahead by at least 2 range increasing modules. Not to mention the extra versatility and adaptability (0.13 tracking for hitting those blaster serps and angle battleships, 82km range for hitting stuff that stays out at range)
Since most everything will still be alive by the time you get to the gate what does it matter if you're a tiny bit slower at getting to it? Also I can get to any gate within 200km in a minute (9sec if it's 75-100km away)
And heres the thing about "bling" and what I meant. A pirate BS is still a lot of money, a RNI is still a lot fo isk. but these need 500mill+ in bling. That makes a very juicy target. I pay the same but I don't need 500mill+ in modules to make the vargur work meaning all a ganker is going to get when he kills me is 10mill in T2 modules. Hence I am safe from gankers looking for isk while you are not :D Actually, (Golem/Bastion + 2x T2 range rigs) < (Raven + 3x T2/T1 range rigs); the 25% range on Bastion is stacking penalized. At best, it's marginally better when you're at a dead standstill in a Golem. At worst, it's still less anytime you're moving. I don't need $500-million of modules on a Raven to make it work, either. I can also insure my $150-million Raven and get 75% back if I lose it. The Golem, not a chance
I get it - you love your Marauder. But let's not overlook the fact that your viewpoint is possibly skewed because you've invested a substantial amount of time into it, either. Yes, the current iteration of Marauders are better in (most) respects than the original. That's not saying very much, though. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

zentary
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:39:00 -
[7069] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:zentary wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:zentary wrote: now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff
What stuff exactly? The 4 fleet gyros (He shoudl be running 3 faction and a T2 really) You're saying you are going to scan him down in his mission and gank him with a couple of tornados where IF ALL 3-4 gyros drop you WONT EVEN BREAK EVEN? Are you serious? Hahahahaha. But yea, I don't think arty vargur is the way to go honestly. AC's are fine. lol why the heck would i use a tornado? few catalysts work just fine A few catalysts? What the strontium are you smoking? No seriously are you on some kind of mind altering drug? You realise that not ONLY can he rep 400+ RAW SHIELD HP per SECOND but he has 66% thermal and 71% kin resist on shields with over 10k shield buffer not to mention similar resists on armor with another 9k+ armor hp AAAAND 30% omni hull resists. And you want to kill that with a couple of catas? IN HIGH SEC? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Just so you can see some numbers, you'd need 3 catas just to break the tank. Then you'd need to chew through 60k+ EHP. I figure you'd need around.... 20 or so catas given 15 seconds of free firing. 30 for 10 seconds of free firing.
i just chose a destroyer you numbskull. The Minmitar one would work just fin as well. And with that tank it would be easy to just have a cloaky warp in and go in when his shields with be at their lowest from the ratts considering that won't be hard with those resists. you obviously know nothing.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 01:08:00 -
[7070] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Hahaha You missed so much - Only need T2 fit so 1) no more bling on your ship so it's cheaper and 2) No danger of random ganking to get at your shinies
If you arent using at least faction gyro and TCs on any projectile mission ship, you are doing it wrong. (I assume you prolly cant on the test server because you havent fit any of your existing ships, and therefore do not have access to them on the test server). A shiny tank tank will help prevent you from having to use bastion mode while reducing slots and cap use, which equals faster clear times and more isk
Quote: - Adaptable: A lot more tracking OR Range means I can match or exceed TQ vargur damage application without moving an inch or worrying about transversal
This is just incorrect. especially with the fit you are using. I keep telling you to swap the rigs to burst II ambit I. Why is that? because in ur tech II fit with 3 tracking comps at optimal + a te + an ambit II, your opt/falloff should be around 4.4+75 at lvl V. If you add another ambit II, your opt falloff is 4.4+75. you are wasting a T2 rig via stacking penalties. More over, if you should activate bastion, your opt falloff becomes 4.8+76, and ull gain around 5 dps or so.
"BUT... BUT... Tracking".... If you go back a few pages i did a breakdown of using 2 v 3 tracking comps on a properly rigged vargur. You are better off dropping the extra tc for dual prop on missions that require the jumpdrive, or using it for tank and dropping bastion.
Bastion locks you down for a whole minute, and assuming proper rigs, 2 tc on mobile, 3 on bastion, at 40km the rubicon vargur only needs to move 4km to match the dmg [quick note for transparency, i had quoted 2km a few pages back, i realized tonight that the tq vargur build used in that comparison had a range implant while the rubicon marauder did not]..... it can do that with an ab II in around 10.5 seconds, after than the dmg potential is much higher, and the mobile vargur can maintain that dmg bonus for longer than a minute because after the bastion cycle the bastioned marauder still needs to make up the difference.
Quote: - I can still fit a MWD or AB and only be marginally slower but with MJD it really isn't nessesary. Remember you can target and shoot WHILE MJD so I don't lose any damage dealing while doing the 1min 2 hop jump to get at a gate 30km away.
remember that its a 9-12 cycle , 1 min cd, 9-12 sec cycle. the total time is 78 - 84 seconds to reach the gate. an after burner II at level 5 is 375m/s needing to travel with 2.5k of the 30k gate.... 73.33 seconds.... and you can always fit a better ab... Also, the AB / MWD is necessary when while mjd would otherwise be on cd, so that you can increase dmg with your mobility.
On other point, assuming the ab II speed, (and you should really do your own homework here), it isnt going to significantly reduce your dmg via increase angular until the ships reach a distance that would otherwise lower your dmg by jumping due to the difference in distance.
Quote: Face it, the nerfs are so minor and the flexibility and advantages so great that the Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation except where a pirate battleships is ALREADY better than the TQ vargur.
And this is with the VARGUR, arguably the weakest marauder. That is why I'm training for a paladin as that will beat the vargur plenty in amarr, gurista and serp space. Vargur will have the upper hand in angle space, probably but not sure if the golem will beat it there. Kronos will rock in serp and gurista space.
One more thought: It doesn't ahve to be EITHER MWD OR MJD. You cna have both and use both in the same mission where applicable. It's this ADDED utility that makes it stand above the TQ marauders.
The nerfs are not minor and the vargur becomes less flexible for 4s. It received all of these nerf for a bastion module that it shouldnt use aside from the few heavy ewar missions.
concerning dual prop, it will be much better than that 3rd tc... just saying, but what good is slotting a mjd on most missions that wont benefit from it at all? |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:03:00 -
[7071] - Quote
zentary wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:zentary wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:zentary wrote: now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff
What stuff exactly? The 4 fleet gyros (He shoudl be running 3 faction and a T2 really) You're saying you are going to scan him down in his mission and gank him with a couple of tornados where IF ALL 3-4 gyros drop you WONT EVEN BREAK EVEN? Are you serious? Hahahahaha. But yea, I don't think arty vargur is the way to go honestly. AC's are fine. lol why the heck would i use a tornado? few catalysts work just fine A few catalysts? What the strontium are you smoking? No seriously are you on some kind of mind altering drug? You realise that not ONLY can he rep 400+ RAW SHIELD HP per SECOND but he has 66% thermal and 71% kin resist on shields with over 10k shield buffer not to mention similar resists on armor with another 9k+ armor hp AAAAND 30% omni hull resists. And you want to kill that with a couple of catas? IN HIGH SEC? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Just so you can see some numbers, you'd need 3 catas just to break the tank. Then you'd need to chew through 60k+ EHP. I figure you'd need around.... 20 or so catas given 15 seconds of free firing. 30 for 10 seconds of free firing. i just chose a destroyer you numbskull. The Minmitar one would work just fin as well. And with that tank it would be easy to just have a cloaky warp in and go in when his shields with be at their lowest from the ratts considering that won't be hard with those resists. you obviously know nothing. and how exactly are you goong to know when his shields are low? in fact with an active tank you want to keep your cap as close to 30%as possible so shields wont ever be low.
how about you tell me how many alhpa dessies you gonna need so I can laugh in you face. will someone go through all the trouble of getting 20 or more alpha dessies together just to maybe loot 180mill in loot 18 mill each yey, when there is a mach or vinty flying around with 1.5bill?
you obviously know less than what you are asserting I know. also a single Dcu will double the amount of dessies you need. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:23:00 -
[7072] - Quote
why catas and tornadoes for siucide gank ? u can use taloses with 1.8k dps. just 3-4 of them or more. dont forget that marauders T2 ships and have T2 salvage and if you are lucky salvage can cost be more than original hull. Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

zentary
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:51:00 -
[7073] - Quote
@Anize Oramara
I mean "A" dessie as in i picked one at random you prick. And you use the cloaky to wait for the biggest spawn in the mission then you jump him because the rats do play a factor. Not sure why in your mind they don't. Then again idiots like yourself apparently don't think of all factors.
And I'm not sure why you think I'm only talking about this ship. i simply stated those fits are why people kill expensive ships in general but then again you seem to not be able to read very well |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 04:33:00 -
[7074] - Quote
Take it to low-sec to duel it out already guys... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
371
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 04:37:00 -
[7075] - Quote
Anize Oramara
You have yet to post numbers for TQ why are you responding to anything else without them?
You have yet to demonstrate the validity of anything you are saying. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
626
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 05:23:00 -
[7076] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Take it to low-sec to duel it out already guys... .....
Totally off-topic question... With Bastion, have we just seen the end of non-Covert travel into low-sec? How would you possibly break a gate camp with even one of these things sitting off the gate?
When it comes to gate camps, I wouldn't be worried about a bs with a slow lock time. What I would be worried about are tier 3 BCs and insta scram ships. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 06:39:00 -
[7077] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Anize Oramara
You have yet to post numbers for TQ why are you responding to anything else without them?
You have yet to demonstrate the validity of anything you are saying. uh I already stated that running sansha blockade it takes me 3 times as long to do it with multiple warp outs. do you have trouble reading?
also so far every mission I have run on sisi has been faster than what I usually get on tq because of various factors including jamming, damping, tracking disruption, range issues, gate travel, elite frigs and cruisers, etc.
now how about we see a constructive post from you princess? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 06:50:00 -
[7078] - Quote
zentary wrote:@Anize Oramara
I mean "A" dessie as in i picked one at random you prick. And you use the cloaky to wait for the biggest spawn in the mission then you jump him because the rats do play a factor. Not sure why in your mind they don't. Then again idiots like yourself apparently don't think of all factors.
And I'm not sure why you think I'm only talking about this ship. i simply stated those fits are why people kill expensive ships in general but then again you seem to not be able to read very well look its patentlu clear that you have no idea what bastion is or does if you think a single dessie will do more than die in a fire. ive taken full room aggro on vengeance and not had to so much as pulse the shield repper.
yes a couple of taloses might be able to do it but at around 70 - 80 mill each you will not be makimg any isk because there wont be enough bling since its over tanked with t2 equipment.
nor would t2 salvage even remotely cover your costs. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 07:05:00 -
[7079] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:When it comes to gate camps, I wouldn't be worried about a bs with a slow lock time. What I would be worried about are tier 3 BCs and insta scram ships. I'm not worried about the slow lock time, I'm just concerned about what it's going to do when it does get a lock. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
56
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 07:31:00 -
[7080] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: yes a couple of taloses might be able to do it but at around 70 - 80 mill each you will not be makimg any isk because there wont be enough bling since its over tanked with t2 equipment. nor would t2 salvage even remotely cover your costs.
salvage depends on your luck. it could cost as marauder itself. if salvage is half of it. then 4 taloses are noneplused on isk from salvage. but we have loot from wreck like gyros and other things. Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
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|

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
192
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 09:47:00 -
[7081] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Serge SC wrote:Yeah, just read it. I should've before posting.
That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot.
Hey. lets just convince CCP to allow us to attach a tractor beam to _that_ structure, so we can drag it and act as a driftnet 
EDIT: In the next few comments past that one I found my idea was not original after all ... I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

baltec1
Bat Country
8391
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 10:14:00 -
[7082] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Serge SC wrote:Yeah, just read it. I should've before posting.
That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot. Hey. lets just convince CCP to allow us to attach a tractor beam to _that_ structure, so we can drag it and act as a driftnet  EDIT: In the next few comments past that one I found my idea was not original after all ...
Trawlers in space. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 10:14:00 -
[7083] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Serge SC wrote:Yeah, just read it. I should've before posting.
That structure makes marauders' bonus a bit useless... about the only thing the Marauder tractor is good for now, is picking up mission objective loot. Hey. lets just convince CCP to allow us to attach a tractor beam to _that_ structure, so we can drag it and act as a driftnet  EDIT: In the next few comments past that one I found my idea was not original after all ... I rely heavily on 3 t2 tractor beams to double my isk income per mission. a tiny bit more range would be nice though :) |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
922
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 17:52:00 -
[7084] - Quote
Currently the Tractor structure can reach out to 125km and tractors at a velocity of 2km/sec. Its capacity is just below that of a jetcan, 27000m3. These stats are subject to change.
Marauders don't need their tractor bonus looked at.. oh no, not at all.. /s
At least the structure only tractors one thing at a time and has a 10sec delay between targets. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 18:03:00 -
[7085] - Quote
I'd like to through out a question to experienced golem users aka not me. Pls take this with a grain of salt as I do not claim to know the golem by any means.
It would appear from other posts that the trop golem has been overshadowed to some extent bc of cruise missile changes and the golem's mobility changes, or at the very least, the cruise golem has been made more viable.
My question relates to the synergy of target painters, bastion, and the range of cruise missiles in lvl 4s. It is my understanding that the further you are from a target, the higher the chance your tp will not have an effect.
If this is the case, would it be a fair assessment to say that if the extra range given by the bastion mod is used, the effective dps goes down, and that the tp bonus does synergize with bastion well? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 18:25:00 -
[7086] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I'd like to ask a question to experienced golem users aka not me. Pls take this with a grain of salt as I do not claim to know the golem by any means.
It would appear from other posts that the torp golem has been overshadowed to some extent bc of cruise missile changes and the golem's mobility changes, or at the very least, the cruise golem has been made more viable.
My question relates to the synergy of target painters, bastion, and the range of cruise missiles in lvl 4s. It is my understanding that the further you are from a target, the higher the chance your tp will not have an effect.
If this is the case, would it be a fair assessment to say that if the extra range given by the bastion mod is used, the effective dps goes down, and that the tp bonus doesnt synergize with bastion well?
Well at max skill they have an optimal of 45km and a falloff of 90km so total range of 135km
Considering the range of torps I'd say paints synergise perfectly well with torps and still have decent to good effect at 80km or so. I used paints a lot in C5 sites on the loki and they always hit at ranges of 55km. I think it's a case of they hot or they dont hit, not reduced effectiveness of a hit.
Reading up on it (seems reliable info) it seems you have 50% chance to hit with paints at 135km. so 100% hit rate up to 45km then I guess linear drop off to 50% at 135km. Considering the amount of free mid slots you will have because of bastion you can afford to fit an extra paint so I'd say bastion IMPROVES your paints, in a way, over normal ships by virtue of fitting more of them so if one misses it doesnt matter. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 18:42:00 -
[7087] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I'd like to ask a question to experienced golem users aka not me. Pls take this with a grain of salt as I do not claim to know the golem by any means.
It would appear from other posts that the torp golem has been overshadowed to some extent bc of cruise missile changes and the golem's mobility changes, or at the very least, the cruise golem has been made more viable.
My question relates to the synergy of target painters, bastion, and the range of cruise missiles in lvl 4s. It is my understanding that the further you are from a target, the higher the chance your tp will not have an effect.
If this is the case, would it be a fair assessment to say that if the extra range given by the bastion mod is used, the effective dps goes down, and that the tp bonus doesnt synergize with bastion well?
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
923
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 18:48:00 -
[7088] - Quote
Crossposting this from another thread since it's also very appropriate here:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Even if you were to say "The marauder has an advantage because it can move" I'd have to say that Marauders don't quite move fast enough to balance out the tractor structure's currently-proposed 125km reach and 2km/sec tractor velocity - both of which are superior to the Marauder's own bonused amounts by a very significant margin.
I'm not saying "nerf the tractor structure". Absolutely don't do that. Do change the bonuses on the Marauders though.
The Tractor structure currently has ~400% boost to range. (125 km, 400% is 120km) Its current velocity boost is slightly less than 300%. (2,000 m/sec, 300% is 2,400 m/sec)
The Noctis has a 300% boost to range at Ore Industrial V. (96 km) With Ore Industrial V, it also has a 300% boost to velocity (2,400 m/sec) which keeps it balanced with the tractor structure.
Marauders should, in my opinion, have their 100% boost to range (48km) changed to 200%. (72 km) Increase their 100% tractor velocity bonus (1,200 m/sec) to 200% as well. (1,800 m/sec)
This keeps the Noctis in its place as better than Marauders at tractoring and also leaves some usefulness for the tractor structure while making sure the Marauders' bonus is still relevant. It also synergizes with Bastion Mode - A 72km tractor range should generally be enough to reach anything that Bastioned weapons can kill (cruise missiles notwithstanding).
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zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 19:30:00 -
[7089] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: My question relates to the synergy of target painters, bastion, and the range of cruise missiles in lvl 4s. It is my understanding that the further you are from a target, the higher the chance your tp will not have an effect.
i guess u want numbers. here you go from eft at 68km 98% chance 80km/90% 87km/85% 102km/75% 118km/65% . so cruise will be fine Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 21:14:00 -
[7090] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Battle Cube wrote:And my god i wanted to like the new marauder, i really did, i want to fly them.,...theres just no situation where it would be better to use these marauders over a small gang of different ships. (as i dont solo ) A small gang of ships is better than a single T2 Battleship... My god, who would have thought.  perhaps i should clarify - i meant an equal number of marauders vs an equal number of other ships like a group of 5 marauders vs a group of 5 ships which are not marauders |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 21:49:00 -
[7091] - Quote
zbaaca wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: My question relates to the synergy of target painters, bastion, and the range of cruise missiles in lvl 4s. It is my understanding that the further you are from a target, the higher the chance your tp will not have an effect.
i guess u want numbers. here you go from eft at 68km 98% chance 80km/90% 87km/85% 102km/75% 118km/65% . so cruise will be fine exactly what I was looking for xD. Tyvm. Agreed cruise missiles look to be fine. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 22:11:00 -
[7092] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others.
2. Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time.
3. Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who doesnt got damage bonus. Argument that Golem can choose damage is false since Vargur can do it too and he got that bonus. Not to mention fact that all other marauders deals insta damage, while Golem missiles need to fly to target (target which can just warp off). Thats why Golem should be on prefered status in case of ship bonuses, not the opposite. Lets face it, Golem is the last ship in case of PVP.
4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (in favour of 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer   |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 22:20:00 -
[7093] - Quote
try to shoot cruise missiles at rats 100km + away and most likely you be doing less than 50% of damage due to velocity of npc on top of that , the tp wont even work most likely.
anyway with bastion on, you can basically get away with using T2 rof rig and a t1 slight time rig and still have the exact same range of TQ golem with 2 x t2 range rigs. Torp golem gonna be beast for close range angel missions. For serp missions, fury cruise might be better unless you give up the rof rig.
overall bastion is great for torpedo while only having slight benefit to cruise missiles.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 22:27:00 -
[7094] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others. 2. Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time. 3. Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who doesnt got damage bonus. Argument that Golem can choose damage is false since Vargur can do it too and he got that bonus. Not to mention fact that all other marauders deals insta damage, while Golem missiles need to fly to target (target which can just warp off). Thats why Golem should be on prefered status in case of ship bonuses, not the opposite. Lets face it, Golem is the last ship in case of PVP. 4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (in favour of 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer  
so removing tp for golem is great for cruise missiles but what will happen to torpedos? or do you ignore torp users since everyone seems to favor cruise.
also, you cant compare golem to vargur. yes both can select damage. but vargur damage is crap pass 40kms while cruise missiles do 100% damage at 100km+. i think cruise got the better deal for a few seconds of delay damage.
4. i could agree with this but then again, all npc types use defenders but only amar npc use tracking disruptors so it might seem unfair to get such a bonus. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
418
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 00:52:00 -
[7095] - Quote
You'd have to have a death wish to use torpedoes on a Golem. Between the extra fitting requirements and lackluster range compared to cruise missiles, you'd have to be crazy. As has been pointed out, the DPS difference is anemic and there's a huge travel time for missiles in general. Sure, Bastion speeds that up (somewhat) - but who's really going to use their 2 rig slots for hydraulics? Now if there was a ballistics enhancer (low) or ballistics computer (mid) which would bonus the explosion velocity, missile speed and missile flight timeGǪ well, different story.
Truthfully, the Golem should gain a +5% explosion radius bonus instead of the 10% target painter bonus. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

stoicfaux
3304
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 01:56:00 -
[7096] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:try to shoot cruise missiles at rats 100km + away and most likely you be doing less than 50% of damage due to velocity of npc on top of that , the tp wont even work most likely. Eh? At that range they have their pseudo-MWDs on and are suffering from huge sig bloom.
Quote:anyway with bastion on, you can basically get away with using T2 rof rig and a t1 slight time rig and still have the exact same range of TQ golem with 2 x t2 range rigs. Torp golem gonna be beast for close range angel missions. And what Angel missions are actually close range missions? It seems like there's always one spawn that's waaaay out there. And since Javelins can't compare to Fury Cruise, there's not much point in using torps on a Golem anymore.
Quote:overall bastion is great for torpedo while only having slight benefit to cruise missiles. Quite the opposite. In terms of level 4s, Bastion means you can mount a one slot tank (Pithum C-Type MSB,) 4-5 TPs, and a prop mod or two. You'll have a ~400+ perma-ish tank against most enemies in Bastion. For, Sansha/BR or Mercs, fit an Invul II.
Slap on some speed rigs and those cruise missiles can go up 18km/s (no more volley counting.) 4-5TPs will make up for not having Rigors. Or mount Rigors, b/c even at 13km/s volley counting isn't a problem.
Rubicon Marauders are now insanely easy mode for level 4s due to the Bastion module. A scorch Paladin can effectively perma-run a MARII (with 2xEANMIIs for tank) and 4 Pulses with Scorch with 95km optimal. A Cruise Golem is probably the laziest thing to fly (or would be if you could group TPs.) A Vargur can mount 4 Gyros, a DCU, 3x TCs, MJD, MWD and Pithum C MSB for 74km of falloff (however, it's the only one that actually needs the MJD to minimize DPS loss to falloff) and ~480 perma-ish tank against Angels.
And as for the deployable tractor, there's a 45 second activation delay. And I'm willing to bet they just tractor the nearest thing, i.e. firgates, instead of cherry-picking the more valuable, larger ship wrecks.
Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 02:34:00 -
[7097] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Mer88 wrote:try to shoot cruise missiles at rats 100km + away and most likely you be doing less than 50% of damage due to velocity of npc on top of that , the tp wont even work most likely. Eh? At that range they have their pseudo-MWDs on and are suffering from huge sig bloom. Quote:anyway with bastion on, you can basically get away with using T2 rof rig and a t1 slight time rig and still have the exact same range of TQ golem with 2 x t2 range rigs. Torp golem gonna be beast for close range angel missions. And what Angel missions are actually close range missions? It seems like there's always one spawn that's waaaay out there. And since Javelins can't compare to Fury Cruise, there's not much point in using torps on a Golem anymore. Quote:overall bastion is great for torpedo while only having slight benefit to cruise missiles. Quite the opposite. In terms of level 4s, Bastion means you can mount a one slot tank (Pithum C-Type MSB,) 4-5 TPs, and a prop mod or two. You'll have a ~400+ perma-ish tank against most enemies in Bastion. For, Sansha/BR or Mercs, fit an Invul II. Slap on some speed rigs and those cruise missiles can go up 18km/s (no more volley counting.) 4-5TPs will make up for not having Rigors. Or mount Rigors, b/c even at 13km/s volley counting isn't a problem. Rubicon Marauders are now insanely easy mode for level 4s due to the Bastion module. A scorch Paladin can effectively perma-run a MARII (with 2xEANMIIs for tank) and 4 Pulses with Scorch with 95km optimal. A Cruise Golem is probably the laziest thing to fly (or would be if you could group TPs.) A Vargur can mount 4 Gyros, a DCU, 3x TCs, MJD, MWD and Pithum C MSB for 74km of falloff (however, it's the only one that actually needs the MJD to minimize DPS loss to falloff) and ~480 perma-ish tank against Angels. And as for the deployable tractor, there's a 45 second activation delay. And I'm willing to bet they just tractor the nearest thing, i.e. firgates, instead of cherry-picking the more valuable, larger ship wrecks. Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar.
the increased sig is cancel by the huge velocity gain. from my observations, having a smaller radius explosion than ships sig radius doesnt increase dps pass the maximum allowed at the npc velocity. the limiting factor has always been velocity on almost all cruise and torpedo BS imo.
At first i thought it was defenders killing off my dps then i noticed my torps are doing the same thing shooting BS far away. Then i realized it was their velocity when trying to get into orbiting range.
unless you can tell me that you can do full damage on a BS traveling at 275m/s consistently i think still have to say cruise missiles range is not as good as everyone thinks.
maybe this is why missiles are bad for pvp . if you turn your target turns on mwd, then your cruise missiles will do almost no damage. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 02:43:00 -
[7098] - Quote
i think the people who will be benefited the most are null sec anomalies runners. The massive tank + stationary nature of the bastion is perfect for such activity. |

zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 04:11:00 -
[7099] - Quote
Mer88 wrote: 1 the increased sig is cancel by the huge velocity gain. 2 unless you can tell me that you can do full damage on a BS traveling at 275m/s consistently i think still have to say cruise missiles range is not as good as everyone thinks.
3 maybe this is why missiles are bad for pvp . if you turn your target turns on mwd, then your cruise missiles will do almost no damage.
1 wrong. signature in damage formula have larger impact then every thing else. to if we talkin' about rats and their mwd they have only slightest speed addition compared to their sig bloom. examples. elite frig from tengu dies about 6 volleys when orbiting and only from 2 when on mwd. cruise 1shots them 2 wrong again. so every thing about sig again. especially on golem that can light up target. is applyes 83%(867 from 1045) from fury to BC with 400 m\s.(im talkin about 2 tp fit) 3 and wrong again. they are not bad just too specific. and it's different terms. Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 08:22:00 -
[7100] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:[quote=stoicfaux][quote=Mer88] unless you can tell me that you can do full damage on a BS traveling at 275m/s consistently i think still have to say cruise missiles range is not as good as everyone thinks.
use rigor rigs..... why rigor and not flare? figure out your self :Missile Mechanics
Ps.: donst skip the chapter about practical application and minimum velocity factor most people dont know about these... |
|

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 08:31:00 -
[7101] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:You'd have to have a death wish to use torpedoes on a Golem. Between the extra fitting requirements and lackluster range compared to cruise missiles, you'd have to be crazy. As has been pointed out, the DPS difference is anemic and there's a huge travel time for missiles in general. Sure, Bastion speeds that up (somewhat) - but who's really going to use their 2 rig slots for hydraulics? Now if there was a ballistics enhancer (low) or ballistics computer (mid) which would bonus the explosion velocity, missile speed and missile flight timeGǪ well, different story.
Truthfully, the Golem should gain a +5% explosion radius bonus instead of the 10% target painter bonus.
That would invalidate or at least be redundant with the navy raven. I was told that by you a while back. Look it up, you said that.
If the TP bonus is removed it has to be replaced with two separate bonuses for torpedoes and cruise missiles. As you do not need equal number of TP for both the weapon systems to help damage application. Possible replacement for torps would be additional 5% explosion velocity for nearly the same applied effect. This for torps, cruises need an another.
If the usage of torpedoes are entirely exluded due zero application help from bonuses, why let other marauders to have their racial close range counterparts fitted? You know like blasters, pusle lasers, autocannons?
Your problem is with missiles and missile mechanics and not with the hull. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
626
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 08:58:00 -
[7102] - Quote
I think that bastion mode would have made way more sense if level 5's were in high sec.... (no no one will send a marauder into low sec just for a minimal increase in income compared to level 4 +¢)
Overal the marauder changes failed at star, when CCP decided to not increase the damage bar, an ERROR.
THe bar is already increasded in several places and we have a HUGE gap between battleship and capital ships, while the gap between a t1 cruiser and a battleships is muuuch smaller.
Overal the whole Battleship size needs help, they do not feel battleanything. All except the pirate ones, the pirate ones are the ONLY battleship sized vessels that can really excel at their role.
An no fancy overtankign gonna make marauders copensate the MASSIVE damage difference from a vindicator for example. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
419
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 09:49:00 -
[7103] - Quote
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:That would invalidate or at least be redundant with the navy raven. I was told that by you a while back. Look it up, you said that.
If the TP bonus is removed it has to be replaced with two separate bonuses for torpedoes and cruise missiles. As you do not need equal number of TP for both the weapon systems to help damage application. Possible replacement for torps would be additional 5% explosion velocity per level for nearly the same applied effect. This for torps, cruises need an another.
If the usage of torpedoes are entirely exluded due zero application help from bonuses, why let other marauders to have their racial close range counterparts fitted? You know like blasters, pusle lasers, autocannons?
Your problem is with missiles and missile mechanics and not with the hull. To be sure. I'd be happy with a +5% rate of fire, but I'm not sure the TP bonus will get replaced. And yes, part of the problem is the missile mechanics with respect to torpedoes. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
120
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 09:53:00 -
[7104] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar.
Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
120
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 09:58:00 -
[7105] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:[....] the pirate ones are the ONLY battleship sized vessels that can really excel at their role. Which is what? Talking like a pirate, yarr?
New marauders have actually been given a role and they seem to be quite good at it.
Quote:An no fancy overtankign gonna make marauders copensate the MASSIVE damage difference from a vindicator for example. Erm, when we're talking about Megathron hull, the performance gap between Kronos and Vindicator has actually narrowed. And that's not even taking into account the upcoming pirate battleship nerfrebalance. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
57
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 10:05:00 -
[7106] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: ... New marauders have actually been given a role and they seem to be quite good at it. ...
Face role? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 10:18:00 -
[7107] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar. Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious. I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s.
note the same precautions should be taken as woth cap ships as they are expensive so lock down holes/scouts etc. they will prolly run on asbs and the armor variant. golems will also do good in c5 thinking about it now (loki support + asbs)
I actually already experimented with a rr vargur as part of a t3 fleet for c3 and c4 sites. will do decent in c4 with arties now. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
626
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 10:46:00 -
[7108] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:[....] the pirate ones are the ONLY battleship sized vessels that can really excel at their role. Which is what? Talking like a pirate, yarr? New marauders have actually been given a role and they seem to be quite good at it. Quote:An no fancy overtankign gonna make marauders copensate the MASSIVE damage difference from a vindicator for example. Erm, when we're talking about Megathron hull, the performance gap between Kronos and Vindicator has actually narrowed. And that's not even taking into account the upcoming pirate battleship nerfrebalance.
A role is not somethign taht you take from your head from your desires. Is somethign you take from real world need (real world being TQ in this case)
There is no need for a ship that can tank a crapton more than any solo content PVE can dish at it. There is no role for marauders, they do not feel any NEED that players had. Using a marauder still is worse for L4 missions , because makes less isk per hour than pirate battleships, and rubicon marauders will do even less.
Incursions its not place for a ship designed to not be targeteable by remote repair.
Your wishful thinking is NOT a role! TANKING is not a role! Running level 4 better than other high end ships is a role, close support in PVP is a role, neutralizing in PVP is a role, Tackling is a role. Tanking capability is a TOOL , that can be used in a role.. but does nto make a role on its own. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
626
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 10:49:00 -
[7109] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:hmskrecik wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar. Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious. I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. note the same precautions should be taken as woth cap ships as they are expensive so lock down holes/scouts etc. they will prolly run on asbs and the armor variant. golems will also do good in c5 thinking about it now (loki support + asbs) I actually already experimented with a rr vargur as part of a t3 fleet for c3 and c4 sites. will do decent in c4 with arties now.
Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage.
IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
120
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 10:59:00 -
[7110] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. For one, I thank you for the voice. On the other hand, no offense intended, I asked about results of actual testing. When talking about performance I prefer to keep talking about performance so I'm more interested in dids, coulds, hads and wases. |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
120
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:11:00 -
[7111] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:A role is not somethign taht you take from your head from your desires. Is somethign you take from real world need (real world being TQ in this case) That's why I asked what is the "role" pirate battleships fulfill? Before you answer that having as high DPS as possible, that "role" is bound to more than half of ships in EVE.
Quote:Using a marauder still is worse for L4 missions , because makes less isk per hour than pirate battleships, and rubicon marauders will do even less. That's a bullshit, with all respect. Kronos on SiSi is better than Kronos on TQ and is almost as good as Machariel. Vargur on SiSi isn't any worse than on TQ, where it's already very good, and in some cases may be better. And nowhere it is said or written that Marauders are supposed to be better ISK printers than other ships. ISK printing is not a role too.
Quote:Incursions its not place for a ship designed to not be targeteable by remote repair. I agree that Marauders in Incursions are getting screwed and I understand bitterness of this community. But it's about the only area where those ships are getting receiving end.
Quote:Your wishful thinking is NOT a role! TANKING is not a role! Running level 4 better than other high end ships is a role, close support in PVP is a role, neutralizing in PVP is a role, Tackling is a role. Tanking capability is a TOOL , that can be used in a role.. but does nto make a role on its own. But sir, I never said the role is tanking. Yes, it's a tool. The role, as I understand it, is ability to engage solo or in small gangs, both in PVE and in PVP. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
626
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:16:00 -
[7112] - Quote
I did nto try kronos, But vargur is FAR FAR worse on sisi than oN TQ.
Smart peopel in TQ use propulsion mods to blitz trough missions as fast as possible.
The MDJ cannot even remotely match the mobility advantages that the vargur lost.
If the vargur had lost only 5ms speed like others marauders, the would be acceptable. But as of now.. well I already sold mine for a reason. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
121
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:32:00 -
[7113] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:I did nto try kronos, But vargur is FAR FAR worse on sisi than oN TQ.
Smart peopel in TQ use propulsion mods to blitz trough missions as fast as possible.
The MDJ cannot even remotely match the mobility advantages that the vargur lost.
If the vargur had lost only 5ms speed like others marauders, the would be acceptable. But as of now.. well I already sold mine for a reason. The use of MJD does not preclude ability to fit AB or MWD, you know.
But well, it's your choice. If they prices will drop like all doomsayers preach, I may even buy a second hull, to keep just in case. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
50
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 12:12:00 -
[7114] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:... Vargur on SiSi isn't any worse than on TQ, where it's already very good, and in some cases may be better. ...
Outside of very specific circumstances high ewar and the rare occasions in which minmatar ships will gain a benefit from taking a mjd, and need to jump more than once in 3 mins, the vargur is much worse.
If you use the bastion module for missions on the vargur out side of the circumstances above, ur doing it wrong. It took bandwidth and mobility nerfs to help add balance to the addition of a module it shouldn't use anyway. These changes are a large nerf compared to the tq version already. In addition, all marauders are hit with the loss of looting exclusiveness. The vargur is a much less attractive choice compared to alternatives. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 12:35:00 -
[7115] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:hmskrecik wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar. Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious. I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. note the same precautions should be taken as woth cap ships as they are expensive so lock down holes/scouts etc. they will prolly run on asbs and the armor variant. golems will also do good in c5 thinking about it now (loki support + asbs) I actually already experimented with a rr vargur as part of a t3 fleet for c3 and c4 sites. will do decent in c4 with arties now. Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage. IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners. what class wh was that in? what was the fit? did you have at least 2 1600 plates fitted? were you running armor links? (mandatory in c5) I will see about testing the vargur in sisi this weekend thoigh I do not have access to links :( |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 12:40:00 -
[7116] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. For one, I thank you for the voice. On the other hand, no offense intended, I asked about results of actual testing. When talking about performance I prefer to keep talking about performance so I'm more interested in dids, coulds, hads and wases. thats pretty rude. I was sharing my experieces in a c5 and what I from my experience knew to be possible in the absense of the ability to test it considering the lack of access to links amongst othet things on sisi.
that said you did conveniently forget to quote the part where I said that I DID run a vargur as a rr anchor for a tengu group in c4 and c3 systems and thats what really gets my jimmies rustled. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
123
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 12:54:00 -
[7117] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:It took bandwidth and mobility nerfs to help add balance to the addition of a module it shouldn't use anyway. These changes are a large nerf compared to the tq version already. In addition, all marauders are hit with the loss of looting exclusiveness. The vargur is a much less attractive choice compared to alternatives. I'm sorry but you've lost me when you started preaching mobility and lamenting loss of drone bandwidth in the same sentence. Or you're going to tell me you're using heavy drones for significant improvement of mission running performance?
Mind you that the bastion cycle is one minute. It's the time to kill 3, maybe 4 battleships so it's quite valid tactic to MJD into or near another large group, cycle bastion and get busy shooting. After the cycle then decide whether to carry on or move on. It's quite an alternative to speed+sig tanking of before (which is still valid if anyone wants).
About looting bonus, it's selling point to me was its utility, not exclusivity and to me it's still as useful as it was. If you trained Marauders mostly for improved tractor then I can imagine how did you feel when CCP introduced Noctis. And BTW, this exclusivity is already a bit overrated since Marauders share this bonus with Strategic Cruisers. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
123
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:02:00 -
[7118] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. For one, I thank you for the voice. On the other hand, no offense intended, I asked about results of actual testing. When talking about performance I prefer to keep talking about performance so I'm more interested in dids, coulds, hads and wases. thats pretty rude. I was sharing my experieces in a c5 and what I from my experience knew to be possible in the absense of the ability to test it considering the lack of access to links amongst othet things on sisi. that said you did conveniently forget to quote the part where I said that I DID run a vargur as a rr anchor for a tengu group in c4 and c3 systems and thats what really gets my jimmies rustled. how many cap escalations have you had to fc? expetience is the best you are going tp get untill someone can get all 4 marauders and both shield and armor links into a wormhole on sisi or post rubicon tq to actually test it. I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to be rude. I thought I've read your post carefully and I got impression that you're hand waving, not reporting. If I was wrong, I apologize.
I have almost zero experience of WH and only couple of times I was there, was running some c3 sites in some throwaway ships, that's why I'm genuinely interested how new changes are received by people making their living from killing sleepers. But let me repeat, since those changes hit SiSi, all I'm interested in are field reports, not attribute analysis.
My overreaction might have come from my sensitivity to stats vs. performance discussion. It was my eagerness, not disrespect. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:16:00 -
[7119] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. For one, I thank you for the voice. On the other hand, no offense intended, I asked about results of actual testing. When talking about performance I prefer to keep talking about performance so I'm more interested in dids, coulds, hads and wases. thats pretty rude. I was sharing my experieces in a c5 and what I from my experience knew to be possible in the absense of the ability to test it considering the lack of access to links amongst othet things on sisi. that said you did conveniently forget to quote the part where I said that I DID run a vargur as a rr anchor for a tengu group in c4 and c3 systems and thats what really gets my jimmies rustled. how many cap escalations have you had to fc? expetience is the best you are going tp get untill someone can get all 4 marauders and both shield and armor links into a wormhole on sisi or post rubicon tq to actually test it. I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to be rude. I thought I've read your post carefully and I got impression that you're hand waving, not reporting. If I was wrong, I apologize. I have almost zero experience of WH and only couple of times I was there, was running some c3 sites in some throwaway ships, that's why I'm genuinely interested how new changes are received by people making their living from killing sleepers. But let me repeat, since those changes hit SiSi, all I'm interested in are field reports, not attribute analysis. My overreaction might have come from my sensitivity to stats vs. performance discussion. It was my eagerness, not disrespect. nah its cool I also overreacted. we run a lot of c3 since we have a lot of members that cant run the cap escalations so we do all kinds of zany stuff. our fleet looks more like a pvp fleet than a sleeper ratting fleet. the vargur as is makes a great rr suport ship with 1k added dps. with bastion it will rip c3 and c4 to shreds because it can salvage the sites while running them and the mjd and extra tank will be amazing as well. you only problem is ofcourse the 1min timer on bastion but there are ways of staying relatively safe.
what I am most interested in though is ofcourse the possible usesin c5. itd be great for example to clear high end gas and ore sites without needing a carrier and even clearing cruisers in combat sites. everytjing I know tells me that itd work great but I will want to test it on sisi. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:17:00 -
[7120] - Quote
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
123
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:19:00 -
[7121] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:what I am most interested in though is ofcourse the possible usesin c5. itd be great for example to clear high end gas and ore sites without needing a carrier and even clearing cruisers in combat sites. everytjing I know tells me that itd work great but I will want to test it on sisi. Please don't forget to drop a note how it went. :) |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
123
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:22:00 -
[7122] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:24:00 -
[7123] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:what I am most interested in though is ofcourse the possible usesin c5. itd be great for example to clear high end gas and ore sites without needing a carrier and even clearing cruisers in combat sites. everytjing I know tells me that itd work great but I will want to test it on sisi. Please don't forget to drop a note how it went. :) for sure! I just need to find someone with links on sisi. though I can not fly the armor marauders, yet. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:27:00 -
[7124] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:35:00 -
[7125] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:It took bandwidth and mobility nerfs to help add balance to the addition of a module it shouldn't use anyway. These changes are a large nerf compared to the tq version already. In addition, all marauders are hit with the loss of looting exclusiveness. The vargur is a much less attractive choice compared to alternatives. I'm sorry but you've lost me when you started praising mobility and lamenting loss of drone bandwidth in the same sentence. Or you're going to tell me you're using heavy drones for significant improvement of mission running performance? Mind you that the bastion cycle is one minute. It's the time to kill 3, maybe 4 battleships so it's quite valid tactic to MJD into or near another large group, cycle bastion and get busy shooting. After the cycle ends then decide whether to carry on or to move on. It's quite an alternative to speed+sig tanking of before (which is still valid if anyone wants). About looting bonus, it's selling point to me was its utility, not exclusivity and to me it's still as useful as it was. If you trained Marauders mostly for improved tractor then I can imagine how did you feel when CCP introduced Noctis. And BTW, this exclusivity is already a bit overstretched since Marauders share this bonus with Strategic Cruisers.
The loss from bastion is more than just 1 minute. The unbastioned vargur only needs to move about 4km to gain an advantage over the bastioned bastioned one, which it can more than accomplish in the one min cycle. Past the cycle the mobile vargur can maintain that advantage for a longer period of time, because the unbastioned one needs to make up that distance in position. At very close ranges, the mobile vargur surpasses the bastioned one with its ability to reduce the angular of its targets. The falloff advantage of bastion also mean less at the ranges, and even comparing 3 TCS on bastioned vs 2 TCS on mobile, the bastioned vargur still falls behind
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
631
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:37:00 -
[7126] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:I did nto try kronos, But vargur is FAR FAR worse on sisi than oN TQ.
Smart peopel in TQ use propulsion mods to blitz trough missions as fast as possible.
The MDJ cannot even remotely match the mobility advantages that the vargur lost.
If the vargur had lost only 5ms speed like others marauders, the would be acceptable. But as of now.. well I already sold mine for a reason. The use of MJD does not preclude ability to fit AB or MWD, you know. But well, it's your choice. If they prices will drop like all doomsayers preach, I may even buy a second hull, to keep just in case.
The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:39:00 -
[7127] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes.
there are a lot of requirements to fly it, do you know how long you have to wait to fly a marauder-sentry ship? " When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot neither be remote assisted or remote assist in any way" it will give a bit balance? pvp and fleet usage may be nerfed a little bit.. (triage mode off) anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
631
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:39:00 -
[7128] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders.
They do far more than that. And they woudl continue to be more powerful in PVP than marauders even if marauders had more damage.
90% web, Almost as fast as a cruiser, Super Neut bonuses are all capabilities that are orthogonal to marauders. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
631
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:41:00 -
[7129] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:hmskrecik wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar. Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious. I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. note the same precautions should be taken as woth cap ships as they are expensive so lock down holes/scouts etc. they will prolly run on asbs and the armor variant. golems will also do good in c5 thinking about it now (loki support + asbs) I actually already experimented with a rr vargur as part of a t3 fleet for c3 and c4 sites. will do decent in c4 with arties now. Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage. IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners. what class wh was that in? what was the fit? did you have at least 2 1600 plates fitted? were you running armor links? (mandatory in c5) I will see about testing the vargur in sisi this weekend thoigh I do not have access to links :(
Tried in Paladin in a C5, but I did not had a slave set.
YEt, they a re still not there at the level they woudl need to be to risk them on a C5. As I said they woudl need to have another 1k, 1200k n their tanking layers. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
125
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:55:00 -
[7130] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes. there are a lot of requirements to fly it, do you know how long you have to wait to fly a marauder-sentry ship? " When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot neither be remote assisted or remote assist in any way" it will give a bit balance? pvp and fleet usage may be nerfed a little bit..  (triage mode off) That bit is new! Where is it written that Marauders cannot *give* remote assist while in bastion?
Since I fly Marauders and use sentry drones, I know how long does it take to train all this stuff. And skill requirements are what they are, skill requirements. They allow you to use given gear at certain level of proficiency and that's it. They do not entitle you to have given level of performance everytime, everywhere with everything you use.
BTW, you did not answer my question. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:05:00 -
[7131] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders.
Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives.
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
125
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:14:00 -
[7132] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before. You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km.
The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
631
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:19:00 -
[7133] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before. You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km. The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key.
Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it.
The ship got slow enough !
Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20% "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:20:00 -
[7134] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders. Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives. you mean all of 40 damage the mach has over a vargur at max skillpoints? lol. lets not forget that the marauder can fit more omni tracking, normal tracking and have far greater range AND fit more drone range mods over the mach.
you would be outdamaging the mach by a very large margin. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:24:00 -
[7135] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before. You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km. The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key. Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it. The ship got slow enough ! Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20% this just in folks! real world results are not valid. only eft numbers matter.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
36
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:31:00 -
[7136] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:hmskrecik wrote:
Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious.
I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s. note the same precautions should be taken as woth cap ships as they are expensive so lock down holes/scouts etc. they will prolly run on asbs and the armor variant. golems will also do good in c5 thinking about it now (loki support + asbs) I actually already experimented with a rr vargur as part of a t3 fleet for c3 and c4 sites. will do decent in c4 with arties now. Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage. IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners. what class wh was that in? what was the fit? did you have at least 2 1600 plates fitted? were you running armor links? (mandatory in c5) I will see about testing the vargur in sisi this weekend thoigh I do not have access to links :( Tried in Paladin in a C5, but I did not had a slave set. YEt, they a re still not there at the level they woudl need to be to risk them on a C5. As I said they woudl need to have another 1k, 1200k n their tanking layers.
thats not what I asked now was it? what was the fit? did you have a command ship giving you boosts aka links? if you did not then your test was a failure and invalid.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:37:00 -
[7137] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders. Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives. you mean all of 40 damage the mach has over a vargur at max skillpoints? lol. lets not forget that the marauder can fit more omni tracking, normal tracking and have far greater range AND fit more drone range mods over the mach. you would be outdamaging the mach by a very large margin. You should double check this, don't have access to EFT atm or I would post numbers. Ensure implants, ammo, dmg upgrades, and skills are the same. Make sure u add drones to the mach as well as the vargur. As to your comment on slots. Shield mach gets options for more ddas which fits the theme of the mach having more dmg while the vargur has better tracking |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
125
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:49:00 -
[7138] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before. You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km. The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key. Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it. The ship got slow enough ! Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20% this just in folks! real world results are not valid. only eft numbers matter. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You beat me to it. What is the smiley for facepalm? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
37
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 15:13:00 -
[7139] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders. Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives. you mean all of 40 damage the mach has over a vargur at max skillpoints? lol. lets not forget that the marauder can fit more omni tracking, normal tracking and have far greater range AND fit more drone range mods over the mach. you would be outdamaging the mach by a very large margin. You should double check this, don't have access to EFT atm or I would post numbers. Ensure implants, ammo, dmg upgrades, guns, and skills are the same. Make sure u add drones to the mach as well as the vargur. As to your comment on slots. Shield mach gets options for more ddas which fits the theme of the mach having more dmg while the vargur has better tracking this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 15:54:00 -
[7140] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps
Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts.
So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational.
Overall the can top out higher than the vargur if it want to. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really?
Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle
|
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
631
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 15:54:00 -
[7141] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before. You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km. The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key. Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it. The ship got slow enough ! Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20% this just in folks! real world results are not valid. only eft numbers matter. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Are you an idiot or unable to read? I clkaim that FEELINGS do not mattter. These are not RESULTS. You cannot fly a pre rubocon marauder side by side with a rubiicon one. So all your observations in test servers are INVALID!!
For god sake.. sometimes it amazes me how mentally limited people can be!
No.. you feeling does not reflect ANYTHING that can be measured. EFTS numbers give the near exact speed the ships will fly in NUMBERS. NUmbers can be comapred.
Now.. if you never even reached your 4th year in basic school, I would undertstand that you cannot fully grasp this amazing concept called MATH!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
631
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 15:56:00 -
[7142] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: You beat me to it. What is the smiley for facepalm?
Facepalm is your lack of capability of understanding how to comapre things. Or how pahtewtically youa re trying to troll people swith lies in this thread.
You cannot fly both vargurs side by side, and you did not stop wathc measured their results, threfore your imrpessiosn are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!!!!
MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 16:19:00 -
[7143] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:hmskrecik wrote: You beat me to it. What is the smiley for facepalm?
Facepalm is your lack of capability of understanding how to comapre things. Or how pahtewtically youa re trying to troll people swith lies in this thread. You cannot fly both vargurs side by side, and you did not stop wathc measured their results, threfore your imrpessiosn are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!!!! MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online! I cannot launch both clients at the same time? That's something new to me...
Lies? I described simple experiment. Something which is verifiable and repeatable. If you don't believe my numbers you can repeat the experiment by yourself and post your results as I posted mine. This is what differentiates science from voodoo. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
926
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 16:45:00 -
[7144] - Quote
All this mudslinging and capslocking and overuse of exclamation points because of.. 7.1km traveled in a Vargur?
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?
For shame. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 16:57:00 -
[7145] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is this what we've devolved into in this thread? Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw.
I find it hard not to agree with. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
421
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 17:04:00 -
[7146] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is this what we've devolved into in this thread? I think this thread devolved long before that... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 17:19:00 -
[7147] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps
Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around. So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational. Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really? Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.
So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.
That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 17:22:00 -
[7148] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:[quote=hmskrecik] MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online!
Well it sure as heck isn't spelling  |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 17:34:00 -
[7149] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.
So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.
That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea. Anize, I think you're not quite right here.
The problem is that stacked bastion does not add much to range. With 2xTE + 1xTC I used to fly with we're talking about 65km vs. maybe 70km of optimal+falloff.
Actual improvement of damage application I see in such situation is that when bastion is activated and I already have a ton of range bonus, I can unscript TC or script it for tracking but its effect is harder to measure. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:01:00 -
[7150] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps
Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around. So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational. Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really? Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well. So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability. That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.
this is incorrect. I know we have had numerous discussions within this thread, but you aren't giving mobility and stacking penalties their proper weight and you have shown that in the recent fits you have posted.
5% is not anywhere near identical esp when you consider that most of the reason the diff is only 5ish percent bc of sentry drones. Things that are situationally beneficial and can be destroyed. Mach maintains roughly a 9.5% dmg inc in turret dps and has the mobility to midigate it's tacking losses or increase dmg by closing distance. Not to mention, it synergizes much better w/ RR. 5 sentry drones on the vargur will not replace the mach. Also, if I recall you made a post a little earlier that a linked a few pages back that said something along the lines of "mach clears missions faster, or so I've been told". Do you / have you ever even owned a mach on tq? Do you know how to properly use mobility to inc application?
Also 5% is a significant difference. Heck no one would use dmg implants if it weren't. And we aren't even talking about a constant 5%. |
|

Brib Vogt
DC-Centre Destiny's Call
37
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:19:00 -
[7151] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps
Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around. So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational. Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really? Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well. So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability. That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.
Vargur will not apply more damage.My mach has 4 rf gyros and 3 te+1TC, Vargur has 4 rf gyros one TE and 2 TCs. I am way faster with macha which is the main factor for applying damage. Fly in and deal heavy damage.
Even on Forsaken hubs a macha outperforms a vargur in raw dps and the ability to field 4 Sentries.
If you try to fly the vargur like a mach to keep up the killspeed you completely render the bastion module useless.
In my eyes the "new" bastion vargur could easily work with 1200 paper dsp on 4 rf gyros and faction short range ammo. It would end up in around 800 dps at 40km while you are stationary. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
927
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:23:00 -
[7152] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is this what we've devolved into in this thread? I think this thread devolved long before that... With less than 3 weeks until Rubicon, I think it's a foregone conclusion that the last iteration is final at this point. And barring some serious issues with play balance, I don't think we can reasonably expect to see any minor tweaks until the next quarterly update (if at all). I for one welcome our new Marauder overlords. 
I just wish the Bastion Module gave the Torp Golem and AC Vargur somewhat more than ~10km of useful extra range.
I will continue to remain dissatisfied about it being considered "pretty good" because of "Kronos gets amazing range with Null". |

elitatwo
Congregatio
134
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:29:00 -
[7153] - Quote
For the sake of our input devices (click click click....) can we make a tiny cosmetic change to the MJD so that it "blinks" when it is cooling down and stops blinking as soon as it is ready to use for the next jump?
Thank you!
FB_Addon_TelNo{height:15px !important;white-space: nowrap !important;background-color: #0ff0ff;} |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:32:00 -
[7154] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.
So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.
That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea. Anize, I think you're not quite right here. The problem is that stacked bastion does not add much to range. With 2xTE + 1xTC I used to fly with we're talking about 65km vs. maybe 70km of optimal+falloff. Actual improvement of damage application I see in such situation is that when bastion is activated and I already have a ton of range bonus, I can unscript TC or script it for tracking but its effect is harder to measure. Thats very true but I get 82km falloff on my rubicon vargur fit that I have already run multiple very hard missions with. The range can be scripted out to get uo to 0.13 tracking (up from .08) So although the vargur is slower (and immobile in bsation) it doesn't matter because I don't have to move :) |

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:38:00 -
[7155] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is this what we've devolved into in this thread? Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw. I find it hard not to agree with.
could be or could be that all people with good arguments have resigned
i think the concept of the bastion module is fundamentally flawed yet the marrauders did not get waeker in lvl4's but i dont know if that is an great achievement in game design.
but there are alot of cool things in rubicon so im only a bit disapointed |

Rio Bravo
Gold State Sanctuary Pact
14
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:42:00 -
[7156] - Quote
The new Marauder class. It's a PVE ship, but with PVP capability from what I can see...Wouldn't know what to tell you if you asked me how to fly it. Have to see it in operation I guess first.
Fuel troubles me if your a mission runner with it. I hated buying cap charges and ammo for different damage types...now people want me to carry fuel too...might just fly a BS then. (Cheaper too). Trying to avoid hassles while doing missions, just one more thing to run out of.
The other thing is the skills it takes to fly it. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ship. But takes forever to train for. On top of that, it is very expensive. Any ship can be lost, but there are more cost effective alternatives then those beasts. Faction BS while the same price nearly, is way easier to train. T1 BS's might be rather sub-standard, but are like a 5th of the price, and can do the job for most missions or anoms. If your really strapped for cash can do decent sniping in a tier 3 BC. and T3 while all-in-one ships, are easy to train, yet on the costly side. The price of versatility.
I like the marauder, lots of nice work went into it. I would never PVP in something that shiney. Incursions you cannot do in it, maybe VG, but you'd be laughed out of a AS or HQ site fleet. For me, will be a ship I bring out on special occasions and parades....maybe run the odd high sec mission in it. I can't risk that kind of money out in null alone to do a scan site or anom. I would get hot-dropped to easily, and I would be shedding tears for days.
From an engineering perspective? Nice work CCP, flagship of the sub-caps! Deadly, I am sure, in the hands of a pilot who knows how to fly it! Perfectly balanced too I believe, enough, but not too much. GÇ£You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig.-áI dig.GÇ¥ -á- Clint Eastwood, misquote. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 18:50:00 -
[7157] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is this what we've devolved into in this thread? Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw. I find it hard not to agree with. could be or could be that all people with good arguments have resigned That's right too.
Quote:i think the concept of the bastion module is fundamentally flawed yet the marrauders did not get waeker in lvl4's but i dont know if that is an great achievement in game design. Like I mentioned earlier, when I went to test server I expected more umph and was... maybe not disappointed, but lacked some awe. However the initiative of CCP is called "ship rebalancing", not "buffing ships whether it makes sense or not". |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:04:00 -
[7158] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:If you try to fly the vargur like a mach to keep up the killspeed you completely render the bastion module useless. A comment to the same effect I made several pages back. If you fly new Marauder like you used to fly old Marauder, the bastion module is not needed.
The trick is to monetize on new bonuses, MJD for mobility and bastion for lighter tanking. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:11:00 -
[7159] - Quote
Rio Bravo wrote:The new Marauder class. It's a PVE ship, but with PVP capability from what I can see...Wouldn't know what to tell you if you asked me how to fly it. Have to see it in operation I guess first.
Fuel troubles me if your a mission runner with it. I hated buying cap charges and ammo for different damage types...now people want me to carry fuel too...might just fly a BS then. (Cheaper too). Trying to avoid hassles while doing missions, just one more thing to run out of.
The other thing is the skills it takes to fly it. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ship. But takes forever to train for. On top of that, it is very expensive. Any ship can be lost, but there are more cost effective alternatives then those beasts. Faction BS while the same price nearly, is way easier to train. T1 BS's might be rather sub-standard, but are like a 5th of the price, and can do the job for most missions or anoms. If your really strapped for cash can do decent sniping in a tier 3 BC. and T3 while all-in-one ships, are easy to train, yet on the costly side. The price of versatility.
I like the marauder, lots of nice work went into it. I would never PVP in something that shiney. Incursions you cannot do in it, maybe VG, but you'd be laughed out of a AS or HQ site fleet. For me, will be a ship I bring out on special occasions and parades....maybe run the odd high sec mission in it. I can't risk that kind of money out in null alone to do a scan site or anom. I would get hot-dropped to easily, and I would be shedding tears for days.
From an engineering perspective? Nice work CCP, flagship of the sub-caps! Deadly, I am sure, in the hands of a pilot who knows how to fly it! Perfectly balanced too I believe, enough, but not too much. You seem to be confused, or didn't bother reading the first post of the thread. There are no fuel requirements. On the palladin there isn't even ammo really and kronos you only going to be using AM for the most part or null with blasters...
The marauder is a T2 BS to when you say BS do you mean T1 BS, navy BS or Pirate BS?
Paladins and Kronos is relatively popular in Incurtions because of webs but those are getting removed.
The marauder is and always has been very niche. It's main advantage for me was it could salvage and loot while missioning. Others used it for Incurtions but apart form that it is pretty niche. The change is aimed at diversifying and changing it's niche a little bit.
You really should read up a bit better on something you're commenting on next time.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:14:00 -
[7160] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:If you try to fly the vargur like a mach to keep up the killspeed you completely render the bastion module useless. A comment to the same effect I made several pages back. If you fly new Marauder like you used to fly old Marauder, the bastion module is not needed. The trick is to monetize on new bonuses, MJD for mobility and bastion for lighter tanking. Indeed it's close to a new ship really. It's funny how in a rut some people are, unable to think outside the box and capitalize on the unique advantages the ship brings. |
|
|

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
173

|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:20:00 -
[7161] - Quote
A personal attack post has been removed.
Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
|

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:28:00 -
[7162] - Quote
I have a question for CCP devs regarding the current thinking on Bastion skills. When will we be able to confirm if it will be High Energy Physics 4 (if at all)?
Honestly, if Marauders are now being balanced around Bastion, I would suggest that Bastion not use an arbitrary science skill as it's pre-req. All this does is add yet another skill to the already lengthy skill pre-reqs for Marauders. You've already added another one in the form of MJD operation, but at least that's usable in any BS class ship. It would be much better if Bastion's skill pre-req was one of the existing pre-reqs for Marauders.
If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.
It's just one skill and not really a big deal, but there isn't any reason at all to add yet another skill pre-req either. I mean Hull Upgrades V would probably make more sense. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:42:00 -
[7163] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion. You can fly Marauders and pretend neither bastion nor MJD do exist, apart from slight DPS nerf you won't notice much difference.
I agree the skill does not make much sense and itself it's not much useful but come on, it's a couple of days. |

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:51:00 -
[7164] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Dorororo wrote:If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion. You can fly Marauders and pretend neither bastion nor MJD do exist, apart from slight DPS nerf you won't notice much difference. I agree the skill does not make much sense and itself it's not much useful but come on, it's a couple of days.
Yes, like I said it's not a big deal. But if there is no reason to do it, then don't do it and add even more to the Marauder pre-req queue.
Even if "it's a couple of days" there is zero basis for any defense of this, other than just for the sake of being contrary. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:51:00 -
[7165] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:I have a question for CCP devs regarding the current thinking on Bastion skills. When will we be able to confirm if it will be High Energy Physics 4 (if at all)?
Honestly, if Marauders are now being balanced around Bastion, I would suggest that Bastion not use an arbitrary science skill as it's pre-req. All this does is add yet another skill to the already lengthy skill pre-reqs for Marauders. You've already added another one in the form of MJD operation, but at least that's usable in any BS class ship. It would be much better if Bastion's skill pre-req was one of the existing pre-reqs for Marauders.
If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.
It's just one skill and not really a big deal, but there isn't any reason at all to add yet another skill pre-req either. I mean Hull Upgrades V would probably make more sense. The rebicon marauder is nearly identical to the TQ one. a few minor adjustments a major adjustment or two, kinda like when some of the other ships were rebalanced. You can still do the same things after rubicon in the marauder. they added functionality though and that added functionality should come with added skill to train. |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
74
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:56:00 -
[7166] - Quote
The new Paladin textures are in!
Check out the test server to see them. Looks nice! |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 19:59:00 -
[7167] - Quote
Dorororo wrote:Yes, like I said it's not a big deal. But if there is no reason to do it, then don't do it and add even more to the Marauder pre-req queue.
Even if "it's a couple of days" there is zero basis for any defense of this, other than just for the sake of being contrary. You can fly Marauder without a bastion module.
You can fly Marauder without High Energy trained.
To use bastion you need to train High Energy.
Hope this helps. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
72
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:07:00 -
[7168] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is this what we've devolved into in this thread? Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw. I find it hard not to agree with. I kinda disagree with you here, with all due respect.
The Marauders are fine as they are combat-wise. But their PVE "role" seems a bit redundant now (I'm looking at you tractor bonus and unbonused salvagers).
Most can agree that they have flaws (all ships do), but in general, they are pretty well balanced and working properly. There's a lot more testing to be done here to compare how they actually stack, but out of experience so far, the new Paladin completely outclasses the TQ Paladin. The new Vargur has several advantages over the TQ Vargur (PG, more utility, better tank, smaller sig, more scan res), but is losing badly on the speed area (hello? CCP? Us Matari are known for having faster but nimbler ships, give us some speed back please) especially as Bastion is not very as projectile friendly as it is to Hybrids and Lasers (I keep hearing about how awesome the new range for the Kronos us, and the uber-range of the Paladin is too awesome).
But that's not the point of my post, I'm going to say this:
New tractor structure is ruining Marauders' main role as a marauding ship (one who attacks in search of gain or loot). Marauders should have a bonus to salvage and or tractor (a la Noctis, but not as powerful). Marauders need to be able to tractor stuff in and salvage it, or get better loot compared to non-marauding ships, otherwise, a marauder gets out-marauded by a non-marauder (haha this is getting confusing).
The idea is that marauders actually get to maraud and get better loot compared to non-marauders (better salvage or something, or better mods dropped from wrecks I guess?) I want my ship to actually be a Marauder, not just some combat ship with open high-slots, like a Bhaalgorn with better resists...I want them to actually mean and be what they are supposed to be. Marauders. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:15:00 -
[7169] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes. there are a lot of requirements to fly it, do you know how long you have to wait to fly a marauder-sentry ship? " When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot neither be remote assisted or remote assist in any way" it will give a bit balance? pvp and fleet usage may be nerfed a little bit..  (triage mode off) That bit is new! Where is it written that Marauders cannot *give* remote assist while in bastion?
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur.. anti-antagonist-á "not friend of enemy of antagonist" |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:27:00 -
[7170] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: New tractor structure is ruining Marauders' main role as a marauding ship (one who attacks in search of gain or loot). Marauders should have a bonus to salvage and or tractor (a la Noctis, but not as powerful). Marauders need to be able to tractor stuff in and salvage it, or get better loot compared to non-marauding ships, otherwise, a marauder gets out-marauded by a non-marauder (haha this is getting confusing).
The idea is that marauders actually get to maraud and get better loot compared to non-marauders (better salvage or something, or better mods dropped from wrecks I guess?) I want my ship to actually be a Marauder, not just some combat ship with open high-slots, like a Bhaalgorn with better resists...I want them to actually mean and be what they are supposed to be. Marauders.
Serge, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, nor being showed I'm wrong. If anything, it's an opportunity to learn something new.
That said, you're not the first person arguing this new tractor structure hits Marauders where it hurts and I admit I don't get it. As far as I could check, the 40/48 km tractor range works precisely the same way on TQ and on test server. Unless you're competing in the same grid, which during mission running is rather rare occurence, you are in no way impaired by someone launching the thingy.
I dare say that uniqueness is a domain of special issue ships. Regular ones, like Marauders are, are supposed to get the job done and their bonuses are supposed to help with that. I repeat, until there is direct competition the fact that the other ship has bigger this or longer that is completely irrelevant.
Or did I miss something? |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:31:00 -
[7171] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!? Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes. there are a lot of requirements to fly it, do you know how long you have to wait to fly a marauder-sentry ship? " When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot neither be remote assisted or remote assist in any way" it will give a bit balance? pvp and fleet usage may be nerfed a little bit..  (triage mode off) That bit is new! Where is it written that Marauders cannot *give* remote assist while in bastion? im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking.. it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
So... you become a sentry boat but can't rep your sentries?
That doesn't really make sense. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:38:00 -
[7172] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: ... I want them to actually mean and be what they are supposed to be. Marauders.
We got space bunkers instead, sucks to be us.
|

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
73
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:40:00 -
[7173] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:
That said, you're not the first person arguing this new tractor structure hits Marauders where it hurts and I admit I don't get it. As far as I could check, the 40/48 km tractor range works precisely the same way on TQ and on test server. Unless you're competing in the same grid, which during mission running is rather rare occurence, you are in no way impaired by someone launching the thingy.
I dare say that uniqueness is a domain of special issue ships. Regular ones, like Marauders are, are supposed to get the job done and their bonuses are supposed to help with that. I repeat, until there is direct competition the fact that the other ship has bigger this or longer that is completely irrelevant.
Or did I miss something?
Apologies if my idea didn't come through very clearly.
My complaint is that with the tractor structure now makes no sense to actually use tractors on a marauder now, besides moving some stuff or grabbing the mission loot required to finish it. At 2000m/s it's fat more efficient to drop a couple near the accel gate and let them tractor stuff, and fit several salvagers to salvage the wrecks.
The Marauder role bonus, the 100% bonus to tractor range and script, feels off with the changes. With the Noctis, the marauders lost their salvage king situation. Now with the tractor structure, is far better to have those instead of bonused tractors that are completely outclassed by a structure than any ship can carry.
I'd love if CCP could look into this, because the limited range of tractors, couple with immobility and micro jumps feel like a weird combination. Perhaps extend the tractor range, or extend the salvaging range, or a bonus to salvage drones speed and salvage per level? Something like that? Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
74
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:41:00 -
[7174] - Quote
Right now on SiSi, the tractor structure speed is 1000m/s. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
73
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:42:00 -
[7175] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Right now on SiSi, the tractor structure speed is 1000m/s. Ah great! The balanced that out, because Fozzie said 2000 on the test server forum, but that was a bit way too fast. Thanks. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 20:52:00 -
[7176] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:My complaint is that with the tractor structure now makes no sense to actually use tractors on a marauder now, besides moving some stuff or grabbing the mission loot required to finish it. At 2000m/s it's fat more efficient to drop a couple near the accel gate and let them tractor stuff, and fit several salvagers to salvage the wrecks.Disregard this, apparently they've been modified to 1000m/s instead of 2000m/s. I'll have to test them once SISI downloads to test it. Okay, when you put it this way it starts making sense. Or rather, the hull bonus stops making it...
I agree that it would be nice if CCP looked into it, even though to me this bonus is just a bonus, nice to have but I can live without it.
Except the "salvage king" part. ;) Here being a champion was something which happened, not something which was supposed to be. And let me repeat, the position has been held ex equo with T3 Cruisers. So far for being THE king. ;) |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 22:49:00 -
[7177] - Quote
the mobile structure tractor is too slow. i wouldnt mind making it faster so you can use 3 salagers .
you have to remember the structure doesnt care what it tractors in, even useless small wrecks so unlike marauder you cant pick and choose which wrecks to bring in . also, isnt 100m3 volume a bit too much? i barely have room to loot in a marauder i cant imgine with only 600m3 in a t1 |

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 00:03:00 -
[7178] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the mobile structure tractor is too slow. i wouldnt mind making it faster so you can use 3 salagers .
you have to remember the structure doesnt care what it tractors in, even useless small wrecks so unlike marauder you cant pick and choose which wrecks to bring in . also, isnt 100m3 volume a bit too much? i barely have room to loot in a marauder i cant imgine with only 600m3 in a t1
why not drop one in every room and afterwards come with your noctis alt ? all things will be packed up pretty so youll have 7-8 salvages maybe 1 tractor for wrecks to far away for the tractor unit....
|

Rio Bravo
Gold State Sanctuary Pact
14
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 00:20:00 -
[7179] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Rio Bravo wrote:The new Marauder class. It's a PVE ship, but with PVP capability from what I can see...Wouldn't know what to tell you if you asked me how to fly it. Have to see it in operation I guess first.
Fuel troubles me if your a mission runner with it. I hated buying cap charges and ammo for different damage types...now people want me to carry fuel too...might just fly a BS then. (Cheaper too). Trying to avoid hassles while doing missions, just one more thing to run out of.
The other thing is the skills it takes to fly it. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ship. But takes forever to train for. On top of that, it is very expensive. Any ship can be lost, but there are more cost effective alternatives then those beasts. Faction BS while the same price nearly, is way easier to train. T1 BS's might be rather sub-standard, but are like a 5th of the price, and can do the job for most missions or anoms. If your really strapped for cash can do decent sniping in a tier 3 BC. and T3 while all-in-one ships, are easy to train, yet on the costly side. The price of versatility.
I like the marauder, lots of nice work went into it. I would never PVP in something that shiney. Incursions you cannot do in it, maybe VG, but you'd be laughed out of a AS or HQ site fleet. For me, will be a ship I bring out on special occasions and parades....maybe run the odd high sec mission in it. I can't risk that kind of money out in null alone to do a scan site or anom. I would get hot-dropped to easily, and I would be shedding tears for days.
From an engineering perspective? Nice work CCP, flagship of the sub-caps! Deadly, I am sure, in the hands of a pilot who knows how to fly it! Perfectly balanced too I believe, enough, but not too much. You seem to be confused, or didn't bother reading the first post of the thread. There are no fuel requirements. On the palladin there isn't even ammo really and kronos you only going to be using AM for the most part or null with blasters... The marauder is a T2 BS to when you say BS do you mean T1 BS, navy BS or Pirate BS? Paladins and Kronos is relatively popular in Incurtions because of webs but those are getting removed. The marauder is and always has been very niche. It's main advantage for me was it could salvage and loot while missioning. Others used it for Incurtions but apart form that it is pretty niche. The change is aimed at diversifying and changing it's niche a little bit. You really should read up a bit better on something you're commenting on next time.
Well, never said they had fuel, but that if some people get there way I would be disappointed. Thought I made a distinction between T1 and T2 when I mentioned the price being one 5th the price a marauder. I know Marauders are T2. Yes I ran incursions, and saw Marauders there. They WERE good ships, but were talking now. Cant kite to gates and stuff sitting in bastion deploy, and can't be assisted in bastion mode...so to use the repair bonus your active tanking.
Thanks for marking my essay teacher. Maybe next time you should go to teachers college and I should pay you some kind of tuition before you start grading my writtings. GÇ£You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig.-áI dig.GÇ¥ -á- Clint Eastwood, misquote. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
423
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 01:03:00 -
[7180] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the mobile structure tractor is too slow. i wouldnt mind making it faster so you can use 3 salagers .
you have to remember the structure doesnt care what it tractors in, even useless small wrecks so unlike marauder you cant pick and choose which wrecks to bring in . also, isnt 100m3 volume a bit too much? i barely have room to loot in a marauder i cant imgine with only 600m3 in a t1 "I barely have room for two of these in my 1200m3 cargo bay..." Good one.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 01:23:00 -
[7181] - Quote
Found 2 bugs in the paladin for current sisi version.
When your tractoring in wrecks, the green 'beam' is crunched up into the ships hull, and does not reach out to the wreck.
When you deactivate bastion, the sound effect plays twice. |

Xorionna
Power Absolute Absolute Damage Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 02:11:00 -
[7182] - Quote
Will tactical weapon reconfiguration require to train high energy physics after rubicon ? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 02:38:00 -
[7183] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Found 2 bugs in the paladin for current sisi version.
When your tractoring in wrecks, the green 'beam' is crunched up into the ships hull, and does not reach out to the wreck.
When you deactivate bastion, the sound effect plays twice. Eve has sound? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
928
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 03:04:00 -
[7184] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Found 2 bugs in the paladin for current sisi version.
When your tractoring in wrecks, the green 'beam' is crunched up into the ships hull, and does not reach out to the wreck.
When you deactivate bastion, the sound effect plays twice. Eve has sound?
Yes it does, and apparently the Bastion sound for the Vargur is amazing. Sadly I cannot verify this myself, as I currently.. well.. lack the skills to legitimately fly a Marauder. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
423
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 03:24:00 -
[7185] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Yes it does, and apparently the Bastion sound for the Vargur is amazing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w9qfrvboU I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

TheButcherPete
The Big E SpaceMonkey's Alliance
319
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 03:48:00 -
[7186] - Quote
The Incursion bear tears in this thread are rich.
I'm getting diabeetus, they're so rich. THE KING OF EVE RADIO
ElQuirko is my son |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 03:51:00 -
[7187] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:Found 2 bugs in the paladin for current sisi version.
When your tractoring in wrecks, the green 'beam' is crunched up into the ships hull, and does not reach out to the wreck.
When you deactivate bastion, the sound effect plays twice. Eve has sound? Yes it does, and apparently the Bastion sound for the Vargur is amazing. Sadly I cannot verify this myself, as I currently.. well.. lack the skills to legitimately fly a Marauder.
Its a pretty good sound, the doors cover the lower solar panal bits, and there is a lightning effect under the long neck at the front of the ship.
Varger bastion sound is better than the one for the Paladin i think. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
74
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 05:53:00 -
[7188] - Quote
The Vargur sound is of metallic nature. One sound for each plate that opens. We used to have 6-7 plates covering each wingy bits, now they're double. They look the same, but behave as 2 plates. Once the top plate is pulled out, the one below and attached gets pulled, and so on. Each of these "pulls" has a sound. Great work there. Under the neck, the bit that opens, exposes a current thingy. It is hard to explain. Looks good, but I would've love some lights on the plates on the wingy bits.
The Paladin's sound is decent. More mechanic than metallic. I like it, and love the new skin and model (it's what the apoc should've been, instead of the fat ship we have now). The skin is now fixed and looks pretty well, also the part that opens has more lightning effects to them,
I haven;t tested the kronos nor golem, because Amarr and Minmatar are superior than anything.
Overall I'm still relatively happy. And after testing the depot, I went from AC varg to 1400 varg in 10 seconds (reload time) and it's wonderful. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 06:43:00 -
[7189] - Quote
Serge SC wrote:The Vargur sound is of metallic nature. One sound for each plate that opens. We used to have 6-7 plates covering each wingy bits, now they're double. They look the same, but behave as 2 plates. Once the top plate is pulled out, the one below and attached gets pulled, and so on. Each of these "pulls" has a sound. Great work there. Under the neck, the bit that opens, exposes a current thingy. It is hard to explain. Looks good, but I would've love some lights on the plates on the wingy bits.
The Paladin's sound is decent. More mechanic than metallic. I like it, and love the new skin and model (it's what the apoc should've been, instead of the fat ship we have now). The skin is now fixed and looks pretty well, also the part that opens has more lightning effects to them,
I haven;t tested the kronos nor golem, because Amarr and Minmatar are superior than anything.
Overall I'm still relatively happy. And after testing the depot, I went from AC varg to 1400 varg in 10 seconds (reload time) and it's wonderful.
I also love that new depot, in a marauder, you can micro jump, deploy it, reweapon or alter your fit however, scoop, and immediately micro jump back. All in 1 minute total time. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 08:04:00 -
[7190] - Quote
Serge SC wrote: ... ...and love the new skin and model (it's what the apoc should've been, instead of the fat ship we have now). ...
I feel just the opposite, the TQ Paladin feels robust and made for battle, the SiSi(sissy) Paladin looks like a girly boy, I'm sure Arnold would agree with me.
I believe it is hard to find a more intimidating ship than the Apoc, especially the NApoc; The only problem the TQ Paladin has is the paint job.
|
|

Reiisha
Evolution
387
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 09:04:00 -
[7191] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Serge SC wrote: ... ...and love the new skin and model (it's what the apoc should've been, instead of the fat ship we have now). ...
I feel just the opposite, the TQ Paladin feels robust and made for battle, the SiSi(sissy) Paladin looks like a girly boy, I'm sure Arnold would agree with me. I believe it is hard to find a more intimidating ship than the Apoc, especially the NApoc; The only problem the TQ Paladin has is the paint job.
The sisi version has more armor and lost the side-extenions, that's about it as far as differences go. The sisi paladin looks more logical, though the tq paladin looks more 'intricate', but that's just because more of the innards are visible.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8404
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 10:17:00 -
[7192] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
Already worked out that if you give the kronos a full flight of heavies or sentries it would start out damaging armour vindicators. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1271
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 12:40:00 -
[7193] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?
Because 3 extra sentries on an already 1600 DPS Blaster Kronos wouldn't be overkill... When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first.-áAccept nothing, challenge everything. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
199
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 12:47:00 -
[7194] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
Already worked out that if you give the kronos a full flight of heavies or sentries it would start out damaging armour vindicators.
Yeah, people already commented about shield / asb fit bastion Pallies with heatsinks and dda's being able to push dps through the roof. It's why they only un-nerfed the drone bays and kept the low drone bandwidth. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 14:41:00 -
[7195] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
Already worked out that if you give the kronos a full flight of heavies or sentries it would start out damaging armour vindicators. I mean obviously dmg mods being equal, a kronos won't outdmg a vindi as the Vindi has an equal number of lows, an extra rig, 125 band, and starts out with a 10% advantage or so in raw turret dps.
I don't claim to know the finer details of running gallente boats, and it sounds like you have got exp running megathrons at the very least. Do you normally run vindis as well, and I know this is subjective, but do u think 125 bandwidth would ultimately make vindis an invalid choice for ppl able to run both? |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
199
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 15:17:00 -
[7196] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
Already worked out that if you give the kronos a full flight of heavies or sentries it would start out damaging armour vindicators. I mean obviously dmg mods being equal, a kronos won't outdmg a vindi as the Vindi has an equal number of lows, an extra rig, 125 band, and starts out with a 10% advantage or so in raw turret dps. I don't claim to know the finer details of running gallente boats, and it sounds like you have got exp running megathrons at the very least. Do you normally run vindis as well, and I know this is subjective, but do u think 125 bandwidth would ultimately make vindis an invalid choice for ppl able to run both?
Yet, the Vindi can't tank nearly as well as a bastioned Kronos (or any Marauder for that matter). Essentually you would have nearly Pirate BS dps, plus substantially stronger tank, and (in terms at least for the Kronos) substantially greater blaster range...not to mention EWAR immunity. The only thing the Vindi would have at that point is slightly better raw gun dps.
Much as I would love to see sentries on Marauders, no spank you... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8404
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 16:10:00 -
[7197] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
Already worked out that if you give the kronos a full flight of heavies or sentries it would start out damaging armour vindicators. I mean obviously dmg mods being equal, a kronos won't outdmg a vindi as the Vindi has an equal number of lows, an extra rig, 125 band, and starts out with a 10% advantage or so in raw turret dps. I don't claim to know the finer details of running gallente boats, and it sounds like you have got exp running megathrons at the very least. Do you normally run vindis as well, and I know this is subjective, but do u think 125 bandwidth would ultimately make vindis an invalid choice for ppl able to run both?
Unlike the kronos the vindi cannot do a two slot tank. Then we have the blasters themselves. You will very rarely be able to fight inside void/antimatter range and when in null 9 times out of 10 you will be in falloff. The kronos will apply its blasters damage (which isnt that far behind) much better and with the drone damage mods the drones will far out damage the vindi's.
|

Cassiel Seraphim
EVE University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 18:50:00 -
[7198] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
CCP Ytterbium wrote:GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level These stats coincide with the current build of Singularity, which is very recent.
Is it simply a matter of gross oversight on the Golem's ship bonuses and the bastion module's bonuses ... or are you intentionally not giving the Golem bonuses to the new Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8405
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 19:35:00 -
[7199] - Quote
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
CCP Ytterbium wrote:GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level These stats coincide with the current build of Singularity, which is very recent. Is it simply a matter of gross oversight on the Golem's ship bonuses and the bastion module's bonuses ... or are you intentionally not giving the Golem bonuses to the new Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers?
Intentional.
The damage you could do to small cruiser gangs would be disgustingly glorious. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 19:49:00 -
[7200] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cassiel Seraphim wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
CCP Ytterbium wrote:GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level These stats coincide with the current build of Singularity, which is very recent. Is it simply a matter of gross oversight on the Golem's ship bonuses and the bastion module's bonuses ... or are you intentionally not giving the Golem bonuses to the new Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers? Intentional. The damage you could do to small cruiser gangs would be disgustingly glorious.
if you use microwap drive you can avoid like 80% of the missile damage right? |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8406
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 20:09:00 -
[7201] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:
if you use microwap drive you can avoid like 80% of the missile damage right?
Or just tank it.
A golem can and will tank most small cruiser gangs and the new heavy rapids sting. If they had the bonus I feel the golem would have too easy a time ripping these small gangs apart if they hang around. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 20:16:00 -
[7202] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Intentional. The damage you could do to small cruiser gangs would be disgustingly glorious. That makes no sense whatsoever. So we're going to introduce a new battleship weapon, apply the damage and rate-of-fire bonuses for ever other battleship hull - but then specifically exclude the Golem. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8406
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 20:20:00 -
[7203] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Intentional. The damage you could do to small cruiser gangs would be disgustingly glorious. That makes no sense whatsoever. So we're going to introduce a new battleship weapon, apply the damage and rate-of-fire bonuses for ever other battleship hull - but then specifically exclude the Golem.
Gives you a reason to use the others in small gangs/solo. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 20:27:00 -
[7204] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:
if you use microwap drive you can avoid like 80% of the missile damage right?
Or just tank it. A golem can and will tank most small cruiser gangs and the new heavy rapids sting. If they had the bonus I feel the golem would have too easy a time ripping these small gangs apart if they hang around.
no i am saying if you are in a cruiser, all you do is use mwd, all the missile dps will drop to almost nothing. heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser. also, they dev say golem wont get the bonus ? or is that just a rumor? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8406
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 20:42:00 -
[7205] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mer88 wrote:
if you use microwap drive you can avoid like 80% of the missile damage right?
Or just tank it. A golem can and will tank most small cruiser gangs and the new heavy rapids sting. If they had the bonus I feel the golem would have too easy a time ripping these small gangs apart if they hang around. no i am saying if you are in a cruiser, all you do is use mwd, all the missile dps will drop to almost nothing. heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser. also, they dev say golem wont get the bonus ? or is that just a rumor?
No bonus. They are giving us a reason to use the other raven hulls. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 20:53:00 -
[7206] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gives you a reason to use the others in small gangs/solo. One more nail in the Golem coffin. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 22:40:00 -
[7207] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gives you a reason to use the others in small gangs/solo. One more nail in the Golem coffin. Because the Golem was the premier small gang pvp ship right? |

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 22:42:00 -
[7208] - Quote
Mer88 wrote: heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser.
clearly you have no clue of missile mechanics i strongly advise you to read and understand the link i posted few pages ago... |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 22:57:00 -
[7209] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote: heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser. clearly you have no clue of missile mechanics i strongly advise you to read and understand the link i posted few pages ago...
if its so clear then say it shouldnt be that hard to explain. what i observe is what it is. i dont use formulas im sorry |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:13:00 -
[7210] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote: heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser. clearly you have no clue of missile mechanics i strongly advise you to read and understand the link i posted few pages ago... if its so clear then say it shouldnt be that hard to explain. what i observe is what it is. i dont use formulas im sorry It's pretty complex, I can see why you have trouble grasping it
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage
"If the ship is moving below a specific threshold, the explosion velocity and the speed of the ship do not affect the missile damage."
But luckily for you I found the important bit :) |
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:18:00 -
[7211] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote: heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser. clearly you have no clue of missile mechanics i strongly advise you to read and understand the link i posted few pages ago... if its so clear then say it shouldnt be that hard to explain. what i observe is what it is. i dont use formulas im sorry
you only compare explosion velocity and velocity....but the damage modifiyer is dependent on 4 values
ship veloocity ship signature missile explosion velocity missile explosion radius
you neglect 2 of the 4 ...and to those are applied :
mwd 500% malus bonused target painters and probably rigor rigs
so there it will be the other way arround leading to a not so big advantage on side of the cruiser (those 4 values are calculated into one a*b/(c*d)^c )
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:20:00 -
[7212] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Because the Golem was the premier small gang pvp ship right? Because the RNI will be able to utilize RHMLs to run circles around the Golem in L4s. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:23:00 -
[7213] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Because the Golem was the premier small gang pvp ship right? Because the RNI will be able to utilize RHMLs to run circles around the Golem in L4s. Ah see you completely misunderstood what I jsut said there :)
Is the Golem CURRENTLY the premier small gang PvP ship?
No it is not
Thus this changes nothing. It is no nail in the coffin of the golem. Stop being melodramatic.
Also why in the heck would you want to use RHM in Lv4 missions?!
That makes absolutely no sense. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:41:00 -
[7214] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Ah see you completely misunderstood what I jsut said there :) Is the Golem CURRENTLY the premier small gang PvP ship?
No it is not
Thus this changes nothing. It is no nail in the coffin of the golem. Stop being melodramatic.
Also why in the heck would you want to use RHM in Lv4 missions?!
That makes absolutely no sense. No, I simply choose to ignore it... The vast majority of Golem owners have invested in the time and training for PvE, and this seriously curtails it's ability against cruisers and frigates. So that means running rigors instead of field extenders to even approach the base damage application of a cruise missile-outfitted RNI. You know, on those L4 missions that feature numerous cruiser/battlecruiser class NPCs. The only thing melodramatic here are your replies. Go back on your meds or get them to increase the dosage... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:43:00 -
[7215] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Ah see you completely misunderstood what I jsut said there :) Is the Golem CURRENTLY the premier small gang PvP ship?
No it is not
Thus this changes nothing. It is no nail in the coffin of the golem. Stop being melodramatic.
Also why in the heck would you want to use RHM in Lv4 missions?!
That makes absolutely no sense. No, I simply choose to ignore it... The vast majority of Golem owners have invested in the time and training for PvE, and this seriously curtails it's ability against cruisers and frigates. So that means running rigors instead of field extenders to even approach the base damage application of a cruise missile-outfitted RNI. You know, on those L4 missions that feature numerous cruiser/battlecruiser class NPCs. The only thing melodramatic here are your replies. Go back on your meds or get them to increase the dosage... Defense field extenders...
wat |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:48:00 -
[7216] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Ah see you completely misunderstood what I jsut said there :) Is the Golem CURRENTLY the premier small gang PvP ship?
No it is not
Thus this changes nothing. It is no nail in the coffin of the golem. Stop being melodramatic.
Also why in the heck would you want to use RHM in Lv4 missions?!
That makes absolutely no sense. No, I simply choose to ignore it... You um... QUOTED me because you chose to ignore me?
I um...
I got nothing  |

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 05:22:00 -
[7217] - Quote
So High Energy Physics or not? That's all I want to know. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:20:00 -
[7218] - Quote
Don't know for sure yet. I trained it since I was in my int/mem map anyways |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:42:00 -
[7219] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote: heavy missiles got exp velocity of 150m/s ?? no sure but it is nothing compare to 2000m/s cruiser. clearly you have no clue of missile mechanics i strongly advise you to read and understand the link i posted few pages ago... if its so clear then say it shouldnt be that hard to explain. what i observe is what it is. i dont use formulas im sorry you only compare explosion velocity and velocity....but the damage modifiyer is dependent on 4 values ship veloocity ship signature missile explosion velocity missile explosion radius you neglect 2 of the 4 ...and to those are applied : mwd 500% malus bonused target painters and probably rigor rigs so there it will be the other way arround leading to a not so big advantage on side of the cruiser (those 4 values are calculated into one a*b/(c*d)^c )
ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.
so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1397
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:42:00 -
[7220] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Don't know for sure yet. I trained it since I was in my int/mem map anyways
My position on the uselessness of the Bastion module is well-documented.
That being said, remember how CCP bent over backwards to ensure that anyone who could fly a command ship prior to the CS overhaul could fly one after?
Seems like CCP figures that even though they and their fanbois are trumpeting the Bastion module as pretty much mandatory to fly the hull class properly post Nov 19th, here we are, where every current Marauder pilot is facing 4-7 days new training, depending on their attribute distribution.
Yeah, that is totally fair, especially when compared to the command ship skill overhaul. Players can go their entire pilot career avoiding industrial skills, but now if you want to fly a class of ships properly, you have to learn possibly 2 new industrial skills. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 07:09:00 -
[7221] - Quote
Hmm.. Anize has still not posted TQ mission numbers.
wonder why that is.
TQ vargur can already run C3 and C4 without serious problems. solo For c4 a rr pair is better though.
Btw, using links =/= solo
How can one like the new better then the old if one has never experienced the old? you used three missions as your examples but have a stated tq time for only one. and one you have admitted to have never run on tq.
Its ok though, Its too late for CCP to want to revise it, bastion is was and still is a terrible idea.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 07:15:00 -
[7222] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:That being said, remember how CCP bent over backwards to ensure that anyone who could fly a command ship prior to the CS overhaul could fly one after? If Marauders were essential for fleet actions... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 07:42:00 -
[7223] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Hmm.. Anize has still not posted TQ mission numbers.
wonder why that is.
TQ vargur can already run C3 and C4 without serious problems. solo For c4 a rr pair is better though.
Btw, using links =/= solo
How can one like the new better then the old if one has never experienced the old? you used three missions as your examples but have a stated tq time for only one. and one you have admitted to have never run on tq.
Its ok though, Its too late for CCP to want to revise it, bastion is was and still is a terrible idea.
Well I can say that my bounty ticks are 4-5mill behind the bounty ticks I was getting on Sisi. Also they were 2-3mill behind WITH A DRAKE HELPING ME. It was a pretty low skilled drake to be fair but still, omg so slow. Problem is living in a wh I will need to make the time to do a thorough test as I did on Sisi. Problem is of course that I have far more bling on my Marauder on TQ since, you know, I don't want to lose it so is it really a fair test?
Regardless It is far slower on TQ than on Sisi. That is what my numbers show.
Oh and regarding the links: Thats STANDARD C5 kit. Please learn to wh before making inane comments about it. Unless you are a WH guru then I'd like to know how YOU guys run C5s without them. when I say running C5 solo I mean with links.
The Marauders WILL be able to solo, without links, C1-4 BETTER than they can now because of increased range (C4) and increased tracking (C1-3). Heck they might even be able to solo the Gas and Ore sites in C5 (with ASB of course) without links but I will need to test that to be sure.
Incidentally I ran Serpentis extravaganza on TQ and the speed was slower, bounty ticks lower though by not a huge margin around 2-3mill because of the nature of serp rats (most of them like to close in).
Running Scarlet WITH a Drake buddy the bounty ticks was anywhere from 2mill to 5mill behind what I got on Sisi (YES I took into account the bounty was split) and we had to completely skip the one room with Guristas in and the last room had guristas as well.
But since you want everything spoonfed I will make a comprehensive study of missions as they become available to me and as I get the chance to get out of the wormhole. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 07:48:00 -
[7224] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Don't know for sure yet. I trained it since I was in my int/mem map anyways My position on the uselessness of the Bastion module is well-documented. That being said, remember how CCP bent over backwards to ensure that anyone who could fly a command ship prior to the CS overhaul could fly one after? Seems like CCP figures that even though they and their fanbois are trumpeting the Bastion module as pretty much mandatory to fly the hull class properly post Nov 19th, here we are, where every current Marauder pilot is facing 4-7 days new training, depending on their attribute distribution. Yeah, that is totally fair, especially when compared to the command ship skill overhaul. Players can go their entire pilot career avoiding industrial skills, but now if you want to fly a class of ships properly, you have to learn possibly 2 new industrial skills. Actually considering the balance of buffs and nerfs they are exactly the same as any other ship that got rebalanced. There are only minor differences between TQ and Sisi and as such you can still do EXACTLY THE SAME STUFF with it, without Bastion, as you can now on TQ. Bastion is not required to fly it and do lv4 missions in it. It does however make it better at those tasks and opens up possible niche PvP uses.
The only exception to note, probably, is the web thing but as you can see from this handy diagram:
http://tagn.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/eve-what-to-do.jpg
Incursions are but a tiny, NICHE, part of eve and there ARE alternatives. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 08:48:00 -
[7225] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:How can one like the new better then the old if one has never experienced the old? you used three missions as your examples but have a stated tq time for only one. and one you have admitted to have never run on tq. I did. I experienced both old and new, a report about which you ignored or just missed.
For your convenience, Kronos' performance (measured by time to complete or by ticks) on test server is almost as good as Machariel's on TQ. Vargur's improvement is marginal but it already was almost on par with Mach.
If you insist on numbers, during typical good mission my Kronos on TQ earned 10-12 mil ticks while on SiSi it gets in 15-16 mil range without breaking a sweat. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 09:14:00 -
[7226] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Seems like CCP figures that even though they and their fanbois are trumpeting the Bastion module as pretty much mandatory to fly the hull class properly post Nov 19th, here we are, where every current Marauder pilot is facing 4-7 days new training, depending on their attribute distribution. 1. You can fly Marauders without bastion pretty much the same way like before. Apart from web bonus lost on Kronos and Paladin, difference is pretty marginal. (kinda understatement with Sorch/Null range, but let it be).
2. So instead CCP should have introduced completely new skill for bastion like they did for Siege module, Triage and Industrial Core? Also bubble lanuchers and bubble projector require Science skill to operate. Your point is? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
44
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 10:56:00 -
[7227] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: As to the enjoyment, as it is currently I'd say my enjoyment has at least been doubled with Rubicon Vargur. I've been running and plexing my 2 accounts with solo vargur for more than a year before I moved to a wh corp. I still run missions every now and then because a little bit is fun every now and then.
Don't have the drone skills to say regarding sentry domis. I hear they are very good in anoms but it's too passive for me, too boring.
It's a lot of things actually. The rapid redeployment with 1min MJD. The auto salvaging of my salvage drones (only have to tractor the wrecks) the sitting in a room and never having to worry about my tank again. The not having to fly around so I can focus on prioritising targets and grabbing wrecks. The opening of wreck and the huge isk ticks I've been getting (18mill, 15mill, 13 mill)
I'd probably be ok with plexing my account on running anoms if I was part of a null corp. Just sitting there nuking wave after wave of enemies (but with a bit more input than making sure my drones stay alive + the salvaging/looting at the same time.
You like the playstyle of marauders with new bonuses, yet found dominix playstyle very boring. These are contrast ideas to each other. You can do the same and/or better in Scarlett without going into bastion mode at all. The problem lies in exactly here. There is no point in all of these bonuses or ship changes for mobile playstyle.
Some guys say "there is too little nerf you can tell", but wtf is new for me then? I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time and all I get is a mobility nerf with a "become a good sentry gun" bonus. Vargur doesn't need any of these bonuses in order to do PvE better. In Rubicon, there is simply nothing neither new, nor interesting for mobile playstyle.
That is all I want to say about it. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
106
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 11:23:00 -
[7228] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:
ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.
so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?
i never said it would not (but you although i seriously doubt your given numbers from your sisi cause it would strongly deviate from TQ)
to my point you tried to make a point with a totally wrong example 150m/s / 2000 m/s would not be the factor of dmg reduction actually the factor would be way bigger thus you tried to make your point with false data so either you have no clue or are dishonest in your arguments. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:36:00 -
[7229] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time Which were/are what?
I'm honestly curious as I though, and I believe I'm not alone, that Vargur is actually the best marauder on TQ. |

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:55:00 -
[7230] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Well I can say that my bounty ticks are 4-5mill behind the bounty ticks I was getting on Sisi. Also they were 2-3mill behind WITH A DRAKE HELPING ME. It was a pretty low skilled drake to be fair but still, omg so slow. Problem is living in a wh I will need to make the time to do a thorough test as I did on Sisi. Problem is of course that I have far more bling on my Marauder on TQ since, you know, I don't want to lose it so is it really a fair test?
Regardless It is far slower on TQ than on Sisi. That is what my numbers show.
How does the fitting of the tq marauder you used compare to the fittings of the sisi version you used? EFT numbers would give an idea of where you were on tank (omni and specific) weapon (dsp , tracking range) and mobility (ab, mwd or mjd?) it all attests to your ship handling competence and mission ability. as the correct fit is everything.
Anize Oramara wrote: Oh and regarding the links: Thats STANDARD C5 kit. Please learn to wh before making inane comments about it. Unless you are a WH guru then I'd like to know how YOU guys run C5s without them. when I say running C5 solo I mean with links.
I did not mention C5. Solo =/= +links in my statement refers to the TQ vargur in c3-4 of the previous statement. Also "solo" continues to not equal with links, you mean "alone in the site with links." which you have already state is different then solo in post #7107 (which was posted in reference to c5 though i had no statement about c5)
Anize Oramara wrote:The Marauders WILL be able to solo, without links, C1-4 BETTER than they can now because of increased range (C4) and increased tracking (C1-3). Heck they might even be able to solo the Gas and Ore sites in C5 (with ASB of course) without links but I will need to test that to be sure. Incidentally I ran Serpentis extravaganza on TQ and the speed was slower, bounty ticks lower though by not a huge margin around 2-3mill because of the nature of serp rats (most of them like to close in). actually their utility in c1-4 will be of lower value because of the lack of escape and logistics options. when in bastion mode. Transients in linked wh will have much more time to find and warp to bastioned marauders and find reinforcements to come kill said marauders with competing wh groups at a much higher advantage then previously because they bring both logistics and cap warfare which is the glaring weakness of marauders in bastion. Anize Oramara wrote: Running Scarlet WITH a Drake buddy the bounty ticks was anywhere from 2mill to 5mill behind what I got on Sisi (YES I took into account the bounty was split) and we had to completely skip the one room with Guristas in and the last room had guristas as well.
Was this mission run the same way that the Sisi version was run, and its not the amount on the ticks that are an issue but the total mission run time. also does not describe/state how many ticks were recorded for the mission (which would have alluded to but not stated total mission runtime). Still lack of posted numbers on blinged vargur, what kind of fit were you using? it doesnt have to be exact but i could go out and run missions on sisi and tq with different fits (as you have) and intentionally made one bad (as it is unknown if you did) to prove my point. Please describe your fitting in numbers that can be compared. Please also post times of completion. much like you did for the sisi version of that mission you tested. [quote=Anize Oramara] But since you want everything spoonfed I will make a comprehensive study of missions as they become available to me and as I get the chance to get out of the wormhole.
If by "spoonfed" you actually mean "supported by testing and recorded data." then yes. yes i do.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
|

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 16:13:00 -
[7231] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:How can one like the new better then the old if one has never experienced the old? you used three missions as your examples but have a stated tq time for only one. and one you have admitted to have never run on tq. I did. I experienced both old and new, a report about which you ignored or just missed.
I have seemed to have missed it. can you link to where this is posted?
hmskrecik wrote: For your convenience, Kronos' performance (measured by time to complete or by ticks) on test server is almost as good as Machariel's on TQ. Vargur's improvement is marginal but it already was almost on par with Mach.
If you insist on numbers, during typical good mission my Kronos on TQ earned 10-12 mil ticks while on SiSi it gets in 15-16 mil range without breaking a sweat.
Do these missions include salvage? How does the TQ Kronos match against the SiSi Kronos.
Where can the data for these mission/bounty tick averages be found ? They are supposed to be averages of numerous mission completions and salvage and module sales correct? are they running the same set of missions? and how do they compare within the same mission?
My bounty ticks are very different for running (serpentis/Gurista) worlds collide vs (EOM) gone berserk. what mission set is represented in your bounty averages? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 16:27:00 -
[7232] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote:
ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.
so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?
i never said it would not (but you although i seriously doubt your given numbers from your sisi cause it would strongly deviate from TQ) to my point you tried to make a point with a totally wrong example 150m/s / 2000 m/s would not be the factor of dmg reduction actually the factor would be way bigger thus you tried to make your point with false data so either you have no clue or are dishonest in your arguments.
I did not lie about the data, but i think they turned off the mwd so they were decelerating so the 500% sig boom was gone. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 16:31:00 -
[7233] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:How can one like the new better then the old if one has never experienced the old? you used three missions as your examples but have a stated tq time for only one. and one you have admitted to have never run on tq. I did. I experienced both old and new, a report about which you ignored or just missed. I have seemed to have missed it. can you link to where this is posted? Sorry, if you can't be arsed to click several pages back, neither am I.
Quote:hmskrecik wrote: For your convenience, Kronos' performance (measured by time to complete or by ticks) on test server is almost as good as Machariel's on TQ. Vargur's improvement is marginal but it already was almost on par with Mach.
If you insist on numbers, during typical good mission my Kronos on TQ earned 10-12 mil ticks while on SiSi it gets in 15-16 mil range without breaking a sweat.
Do these missions include salvage? How does the TQ Kronos match against the SiSi Kronos. Where can the data for these mission/bounty tick averages be found ? They are supposed to be averages of numerous mission completions and salvage and module sales correct? are they running the same set of missions? and how do they compare within the same mission? My bounty ticks are very different for running (serpentis/Gurista) worlds collide vs (EOM) gone berserk. what mission set is represented in your bounty averages? I stated clearly, I measure by tick or by time to complete the mission. I don't count salvage nor LP conversion. Yes, they are part of total ISK/hr but they are not direct indicator of ship's performance.
I do not understand the matching question. I thought the numbers above are what you asked for.
As for ticks, I said typical good, so no averaging, only general good stuff but without extremes.
When I could I tried to compare the same missions but my notes are incomplete, so I can vouch only for Gone Berserk and for WC(serp/guri). SiSi vs. TQ times are respectively, 8 vs.9 minutes and 31 vs. 39. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
107
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 17:04:00 -
[7234] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote:
ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.
so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?
i never said it would not (but you although i seriously doubt your given numbers from your sisi cause it would strongly deviate from TQ) to my point you tried to make a point with a totally wrong example 150m/s / 2000 m/s would not be the factor of dmg reduction actually the factor would be way bigger thus you tried to make your point with false data so either you have no clue or are dishonest in your arguments. I did not lie about the data, but i think they turned off the mwd so they were decelerating so the 500% sig boom was gone.
this would make sense if you hit em before they slowed down but the mwd was alread turned off.... but it would partly invalidate your argument.
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 17:18:00 -
[7235] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:
im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..
it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..
Already worked out that if you give the kronos a full flight of heavies or sentries it would start out damaging armour vindicators. I mean obviously dmg mods being equal, a kronos won't outdmg a vindi as the Vindi has an equal number of lows, an extra rig, 125 band, and starts out with a 10% advantage or so in raw turret dps. I don't claim to know the finer details of running gallente boats, and it sounds like you have got exp running megathrons at the very least. Do you normally run vindis as well, and I know this is subjective, but do u think 125 bandwidth would ultimately make vindis an invalid choice for ppl able to run both? Unlike the kronos the vindi cannot do a two slot tank. Then we have the blasters themselves. You will very rarely be able to fight inside void/antimatter range and when in null 9 times out of 10 you will be in falloff. The kronos will apply its blasters damage (which isnt that far behind) much better and with the drone damage mods the drones will far out damage the vindi's.
Thanks for the reply.
There are tanking differences definitely. I guess what I am trying to ask is if players who could use both for pvp and assuming the costs were the same, do you think vindis would be replaced for those players? The reason I am asking is because your arguments against damage increases throughout the thread have been to marauders completely overshadowing other ships (which is a valid concern no doubt). My personal belief is that there is room for a damage increase, considering the dps difference between the two, differences in bonuses, as well as the penalties for using bastion.
I will not argue/reply to the answers to these questions, the answers could even be just yes/no. (i really dont care about gallente all that much, im not a pvper and just want an opinion from one, and i think your prior posts seemed to indicated that you know megathrons well):
1) just to establish some additional credibility, do you typically use vindis in your normal pvp activities as well as megathrons?
2) do you believe that (assuming identical pricing) a kronos w/ 5 sentries will make the vindi obsolete amongst pvp players who have the ability to use both? or any dmg increase? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 17:30:00 -
[7236] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: As to the enjoyment, as it is currently I'd say my enjoyment has at least been doubled with Rubicon Vargur. I've been running and plexing my 2 accounts with solo vargur for more than a year before I moved to a wh corp. I still run missions every now and then because a little bit is fun every now and then.
Don't have the drone skills to say regarding sentry domis. I hear they are very good in anoms but it's too passive for me, too boring.
It's a lot of things actually. The rapid redeployment with 1min MJD. The auto salvaging of my salvage drones (only have to tractor the wrecks) the sitting in a room and never having to worry about my tank again. The not having to fly around so I can focus on prioritising targets and grabbing wrecks. The opening of wreck and the huge isk ticks I've been getting (18mill, 15mill, 13 mill)
I'd probably be ok with plexing my account on running anoms if I was part of a null corp. Just sitting there nuking wave after wave of enemies (but with a bit more input than making sure my drones stay alive + the salvaging/looting at the same time.
You like the playstyle of marauders with new bonuses, yet found sniper/sentry drone dominix playstyle very boring. These are contrast ideas to each other. You can do the same and/or better in Scarlett without going into bastion mode at all. The problem lies in exactly here. There is no point in all of these bonuses or ship changes for mobile playstyle. Some guys say "there is too little nerf you can tell", but wtf is new for me then? I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time and all I get is a mobility nerf with a "become a good sentry gun" bonus. Vargur doesn't need any of these bonuses in order to do PvE better. In Rubicon, there is simply nothing neither new, nor interesting for mobile playstyle in PVE. That is all I want to say about it. Have you tries the macharial? I hear it's prety decent for a mobile playstile. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:12:00 -
[7237] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Well I can say that my bounty ticks are 4-5mill behind the bounty ticks I was getting on Sisi. Also they were 2-3mill behind WITH A DRAKE HELPING ME. It was a pretty low skilled drake to be fair but still, omg so slow. Problem is living in a wh I will need to make the time to do a thorough test as I did on Sisi. Problem is of course that I have far more bling on my Marauder on TQ since, you know, I don't want to lose it so is it really a fair test?
Regardless It is far slower on TQ than on Sisi. That is what my numbers show.
How does the fitting of the tq marauder you used compare to the fittings of the sisi version you used? EFT numbers would give an idea of where you were on tank (omni and specific) weapon (dsp , tracking range) and mobility (ab, mwd or mjd?) it all attests to your ship handling competence and mission ability. as the correct fit is everything.
Spoonfed, gotcha. Now if you look I stated that this was for the same mission as I already have sisi data correct? (check your later quote) aka Scarlet. Now the bounties would be roughly in the same ballpark but I also stated that we skipped Guristas. Now with scarlet I did it in 36min in a full T2 fit Vargur (the fit has been posted). The TQ one, due to lower bounty per tick means it took... more ticks to get to the same amount of bounty (roughly) This means that it took... more time! aka 3 ticks as opposed to two (37min) so it took close to an hour iirc, with a Drake helping me. Now as to bling fit on TQ: I have 3 Republic Gyros, two TEs II, Two tracking comps II a Gist X-Type Large shield booster and two Hardener IIs and an Afterburner (not enough PG to fit a MWD). My range was 67km Falloff with aroun .08 tracking.
Compare that to being able to switch out the tracking comps to either give me 82km or 0.13 tracking, only needing two T2 tanking mods and only using a MJD for mobility as opposed to a AB (Although I COULD have fit an AB instead of that 3rd TC on Sisi. Might have made it go faster yes? Remember we got a HUGE increase in PG (Major buff) in rubicon. I can actually fit a large shield booster and a MJD without having to fit a PG module 0.o.
Quote:Anize Oramara wrote: Oh and regarding the links: Thats STANDARD C5 kit. Please learn to wh before making inane comments about it. Unless you are a WH guru then I'd like to know how YOU guys run C5s without them. when I say running C5 solo I mean with links.
I did not mention C5. Solo =/= +links in my statement refers to the TQ vargur in c3-4 of the previous statement. Also "solo" continues to not equal with links, you mean "alone in the site with links." which you have already state is different then solo in post #7107 (which was posted in reference to c5 though i had no statement about c5) I specifically stated that you use links in C5 (because the person who tested this did not and used the failure as reason why the marauder sucks) I clarified before your post that solo in C5 means with links. It seemed that you had not grasped this and as such I clarified it AGAIN.
[/quote]
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:13:00 -
[7238] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: The Marauders WILL be able to solo, without links, C1-4 BETTER than they can now because of increased range (C4) and increased tracking (C1-3). Heck they might even be able to solo the Gas and Ore sites in C5 (with ASB of course) without links but I will need to test that to be sure. Incidentally I ran Serpentis extravaganza on TQ and the speed was slower, bounty ticks lower though by not a huge margin around 2-3mill because of the nature of serp rats (most of them like to close in).
actually their utility in c1-4 will be of lower value because of the lack of escape and logistics options. when in bastion mode. Transients in linked wh will have much more time to find and warp to bastioned marauders and find reinforcements to come kill said marauders with competing wh groups at a much higher advantage then previously because they bring both logistics and cap warfare which is the glaring weakness of marauders in bastion. There you go again, you lack of WH knowledge showing through. Running sites in any class of wormhole without first scouting out and potentially closing all incoming holes is asking for trouble. Just like in a C5 you would close all incoming WH including the static before bringing out the dreads (that have 5min cycle time not just 1min) Now I can hear you already starting to whine about 'solo'. And you can do this 'solo' just bring in a scanning ship and scan down all whs then use an orca to collapse the ones you dont want and then bring in the vargur. Alternatively we have had a lone C4 connect to our C5 with NO other whs in it except our C5 (was its static) That would have been IDEAL as there were a LOT of combats.
That said WHs are for the most part group events anyways but you CAN solo them. Also 1min cycle time when enemies are spotted is worst case scenario. Average it'll be around 30sec and a specifically stated there are plenty of other ways to keep yourself safe (IF you knew anything about WHs. This aint null kiddie. [/quote] |

baltec1
Bat Country
8409
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:32:00 -
[7239] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:
How does the TQ Kronos match against the SiSi Kronos.
New Kronos gets much better damage application with blasters and the fittings allow for very very good tracking at close ranges to the point where you can hit frigates under 10km. Due to these things they work better than anything else with blasters as you don't spend any time burning around to get in range to apply the face melting damage. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:36:00 -
[7240] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Shivanthar wrote:I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time Which were/are what? I'm honestly curious as I though, and I believe I'm not alone, that Vargur is actually the best marauder on TQ.
Vargur's weaknesses implement Marauder Weaknesses. Do I need to count those? |
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8409
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:39:00 -
[7241] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
1) just to establish some additional credibility, do you typically use vindis in your normal pvp activities as well as megathrons?
I use every mega hull and have fits even for the federation issue. The only anomaly has been the kronos due to it being bad but not after these changes.
chaosgrimm wrote: 2) do you believe that (assuming identical pricing) a kronos w/ 5 sentries will make the vindi obsolete amongst pvp players who have the ability to use both? or any dmg increase?
In PVP the vindi can be used for work where you need to be more mobile however its fire power is its biggest selling point and if the kronos gets a full 125 drone bay it will trump the vindi in almost every way due to its much better range even outside of bastion. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:40:00 -
[7242] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: As to the enjoyment, as it is currently I'd say my enjoyment has at least been doubled with Rubicon Vargur. I've been running and plexing my 2 accounts with solo vargur for more than a year before I moved to a wh corp. I still run missions every now and then because a little bit is fun every now and then.
Don't have the drone skills to say regarding sentry domis. I hear they are very good in anoms but it's too passive for me, too boring.
It's a lot of things actually. The rapid redeployment with 1min MJD. The auto salvaging of my salvage drones (only have to tractor the wrecks) the sitting in a room and never having to worry about my tank again. The not having to fly around so I can focus on prioritising targets and grabbing wrecks. The opening of wreck and the huge isk ticks I've been getting (18mill, 15mill, 13 mill)
I'd probably be ok with plexing my account on running anoms if I was part of a null corp. Just sitting there nuking wave after wave of enemies (but with a bit more input than making sure my drones stay alive + the salvaging/looting at the same time.
You like the playstyle of marauders with new bonuses, yet found sniper/sentry drone dominix playstyle very boring. These are contrast ideas to each other. You can do the same and/or better in Scarlett without going into bastion mode at all. The problem lies in exactly here. There is no point in all of these bonuses or ship changes for mobile playstyle. Some guys say "there is too little nerf you can tell", but wtf is new for me then? I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time and all I get is a mobility nerf with a "become a good sentry gun" bonus. Vargur doesn't need any of these bonuses in order to do PvE better. In Rubicon, there is simply nothing neither new, nor interesting for mobile playstyle in PVE. That is all I want to say about it. Have you tried the macharial? I hear it's pretty decent for a mobile playstile.
Are you kidding with me? Seriously! Why the hell do you think I trained for a Marauder? Please read my past posts in this thread. I don't want to repeat myself anymore. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 19:33:00 -
[7243] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: As to the enjoyment, as it is currently I'd say my enjoyment has at least been doubled with Rubicon Vargur. I've been running and plexing my 2 accounts with solo vargur for more than a year before I moved to a wh corp. I still run missions every now and then because a little bit is fun every now and then.
Don't have the drone skills to say regarding sentry domis. I hear they are very good in anoms but it's too passive for me, too boring.
It's a lot of things actually. The rapid redeployment with 1min MJD. The auto salvaging of my salvage drones (only have to tractor the wrecks) the sitting in a room and never having to worry about my tank again. The not having to fly around so I can focus on prioritising targets and grabbing wrecks. The opening of wreck and the huge isk ticks I've been getting (18mill, 15mill, 13 mill)
I'd probably be ok with plexing my account on running anoms if I was part of a null corp. Just sitting there nuking wave after wave of enemies (but with a bit more input than making sure my drones stay alive + the salvaging/looting at the same time.
You like the playstyle of marauders with new bonuses, yet found sniper/sentry drone dominix playstyle very boring. These are contrast ideas to each other. You can do the same and/or better in Scarlett without going into bastion mode at all. The problem lies in exactly here. There is no point in all of these bonuses or ship changes for mobile playstyle. Some guys say "there is too little nerf you can tell", but wtf is new for me then? I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time and all I get is a mobility nerf with a "become a good sentry gun" bonus. Vargur doesn't need any of these bonuses in order to do PvE better. In Rubicon, there is simply nothing neither new, nor interesting for mobile playstyle in PVE. That is all I want to say about it. Have you tried the macharial? I hear it's pretty decent for a mobile playstile. Are you kidding with me? Seriously! Why the hell do you think I trained for a Marauder? Please read my past posts in this thread. I don't want to repeat myself anymore. So you complain that the marauders suck because you are using them wrong they don't fit your preferred playstile? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 20:24:00 -
[7244] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Shivanthar wrote:I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time Which were/are what? I'm honestly curious as I though, and I believe I'm not alone, that Vargur is actually the best marauder on TQ. Vargur's weaknesses implement Marauder Weaknesses. Do I need to count those? Fair enough. I just thought you have some peeve with Vargur as compared to other Marauders.
As for weaknesses compared to other ships out there, yeah, I too would like to have "I WIN" ship but then let's not talk about game balance anymore. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 20:28:00 -
[7245] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:
So you complain that the marauders suck because you are using them wrong they don't fit your preferred playstile?
Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste.
Might seem like a good idea at first, but the moment you finally understand... still waiting for you to understand. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 20:30:00 -
[7246] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Might seem like a good idea at first, but the moment you finally understand... still waiting for you to understand. I wouldn't hold your breath... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 21:21:00 -
[7247] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:
So you complain that the marauders suck because you are using them wrong they don't fit your preferred playstile?
Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. Might seem like a good idea at first, but the moment you finally understand... still waiting for you to understand. No see here's the thing (and it's a big secret so don't go spreading it around m'kay?)
I tested it. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 22:33:00 -
[7248] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical? |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 23:46:00 -
[7249] - Quote
I want to make 1 more post on this thread, then I think imma try to stay out out til a dev update or response. This post is mainly directed at the Vargur and why it still needs a lil sumpin sumpin.
First restating all / part why marauders are even being looked at:
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities.
However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
...[different quote 9/30]... ... regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes
CCP Rise wrote: [this on 10/16 in regards to pirate ship balance] We've talked about them some but don't have set plans yet.
My interpretation: After rebalances, the usefulness of marauders decreased (along with the value of their development time) because the usefulness of other ships increased... aka power creep. The Vargur, along with the rest of marauders, is being looked at so that its power (not necessarily dps, but usefulness rather) is somewhat balanced with alternatives..... although drone dps was nerfed, and pirates become more useful compared to marauders via the looting structure as well. just sayin.
It appears pirates played a very significant role in the justification to rebalance marauders, but marauders are being rebalanced based on some idea of what pirates should in the future aka SoonGäó
I continued to read some other dev statements:
CCP Ytterbium wrote: It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better. ... We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first. ... Those hulls are not supposed to be outdamaging competition, as this would be favoring the power-creep. ... We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
Okay cool, maybe trade some max dmg for better projection... only stacking penalities kinda prevent the vargur from gaining any 'damage at range' over the mach. The mach has the range bonuses on the hull and higher dmg. Normally you're hitting stacking penalities pretty hard, and the mach's dmg bonus becomes better than the extra projection offered by bastion... but its okay, cause the paladin looks good right?
Not to mention, ACs live in falloff, so the mach's mobility puts it even further ahead... Heck, the unbastioned Vargur surpasses the bastioned one in dps. The penalties of bastion mode discourage the use of bastion mode with projectiles, while the poor sensor strength is still there outside of bastion mode....
At the end of the day, the Vargur took hits to its hull's base mobility to get a module that doesnt provide meaningful projection considering that it completely loses its ability to apply more damage through mobility. Then outside of bastion mode, it is still that "'jam me now and forever' target dummy", just slower. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 00:03:00 -
[7250] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical?
grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not
well heres the deal. just some estimates for you, im showing closer to: ~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so ~3.65km in 30 sec, and ~1.8KM in 15 sec
if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are ~9% ~4.5% ~2.25% |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 10:16:00 -
[7251] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:hmskrecik wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical? grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not estimates for you, im showing closer to: ~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so ~3.65km in 30 sec, and ~1.8KM in 15 sec if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are ~9% ~4.5% ~2.25%
Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.
And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 10:55:00 -
[7252] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mer88 wrote:
ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.
so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?
i never said it would not (but you although i seriously doubt your given numbers from your sisi cause it would strongly deviate from TQ) to my point you tried to make a point with a totally wrong example 150m/s / 2000 m/s would not be the factor of dmg reduction actually the factor would be way bigger thus you tried to make your point with false data so either you have no clue or are dishonest in your arguments. I did not lie about the data, but i think they turned off the mwd so they were decelerating so the 500% sig boom was gone.
In my opinion, It's more likely that the ship in question got bumped by a structure/asteroid to reach excessive speeds. Normal rats won't go 2k, but those Angel BS from AE (as example) do exceed 2k ms regularly because they spawn within a structure. Some player think this is an MWD, while it comes without the sig-bloom. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
42
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 11:00:00 -
[7253] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:hmskrecik wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical? grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not estimates for you, im showing closer to: ~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so ~3.65km in 30 sec, and ~1.8KM in 15 sec if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are ~9% ~4.5% ~2.25% Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating. And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ? That's 7.3km AFTER a Minute! That is also 68km traveled in one minute while, if you MJD to a gate 68km away (in 9 seconds) then you'll be around 7km away from it IN 9 SECONDS.
The reason for that is that gates have huge activation boxes. Gates that are 75-100km away if you MJD to them you will land at or close to 0 on gate. So someone with a MJD AND a MWD can just MJD to gate Bastion up, shoot all the things and then cancel bastion before last rats are dead and MWD to gate.
Stop trying to use the Bastion Marauder like a normal marauder. Stop thinking inside your closed little box. Think outside the box! Bastion makes the Marauder competitive with the pirate battleships but in a DIFFERENT way. This is exactly what a sandbox is all about giving you different tools to accomplish the same this in roughly the same efficiency so you can decide what you want to use without being forced into using only one type of ship and using only one fit. That is why there isn't just one T2 frigate or one Battleship or one T2 Battleship.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 11:03:00 -
[7254] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:hmskrecik wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical? grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not estimates for you, im showing closer to: ~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so ~3.65km in 30 sec, and ~1.8KM in 15 sec if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are ~9% ~4.5% ~2.25% Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating. And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ? That's 7.3km AFTER a Minute! That is also 68km traveled in one minute while, if you MJD to a gate 68km away (in 9 seconds) then you'll be around 7km away from it IN 9 SECONDS. The reason for that is that gates have huge activation boxes. Gates that are 75-100km away if you MJD to them you will land at or close to 0 on gate. So someone with a MJD AND a MWD can just MJD to gate Bastion up, shoot all the things and then cancel bastion before last rats are dead and MWD to gate. Stop trying to use the Bastion Marauder like a normal marauder. Stop thinking inside your closed little box. Think outside the box! Bastion makes the Marauder competitive with the pirate battleships but in a DIFFERENT way. This is exactly what a sandbox is all about giving you different tools to accomplish the same this in roughly the same efficiency so you can decide what you want to use without being forced into using only one type of ship and using only one fit. That is why there isn't just one T2 frigate or one Battleship or one T2 Battleship.
You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?
Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
42
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 12:43:00 -
[7255] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?
Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).
You say that and comment on how the vargur is different in the same post? GJ. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 13:05:00 -
[7256] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?
Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).
You say that and comment on how the vargur is different in the same post? GJ.
You are incredbly naive or just try to be irritating don you?
The only way to use the new marauders is EXACLTY the same among all 4, but the vargur will become the least bennefitted. SAme WAY is not same thing as SAME POWER.
Too hard for you to grasp simple concepts? Now STOP TROLLING!
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 13:28:00 -
[7257] - Quote
So what we have is:
4 Marauders, two that can apply DPS at range, two that cant.
I'll take the vargur.
Autocannons: MJD is pointless, as you cant jump into them - rarely are they 100k off, and using angles ... well, its a case of ok if they approach, your DPS rises, crap if they go back to 50k and spread - your dps is in the 400 range. You nuke your tank with an AB or MWD because you need to chase down spreading rats.
Artillery: MJD to 70k at an angle. Glacial firing rate means you kill one or two ships then need to MJD away. You could try MJD to 100k, but DPS is in the 400 range (thanks CCP). When they are below 50k, traversal kicks in, and you miss more, falloff makes it work. You overvolley small stuff, wasting more dps. My tests put it at well below 400dps on a typical serp Rear Admiral.
At no time can you use Bastion unless you have a mission where they close on you, as you cannot apply high DPS from static.
What it comes down to is 2 ships get to use, and work well with bastion, but Kronos and Vargur get little to nothing on it. Rails are better ranged, but less damage choice.
AI noted that on Sisi, I simply dumped bastion, stuck on a MWD and did my normal thing in mission testing. It was faster. The MJD around game was just a PITA as you cannot use it to best effect with non optimal weapons.
Again, thanks CCP - way to think out of the box, but please rethink. An optimal bonus on the vargur maybe - mens little on autos but lots on artillery?
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
44
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 13:31:00 -
[7258] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?
Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).
You say that and comment on how the vargur is different in the same post? GJ. You are incredbly naive or just try to be irritating don you? The only way to use the new marauders is EXACLTY the same among all 4, but the vargur will become the least bennefitted. SAme WAY is not same thing as SAME POWER. Too hard for you to grasp simple concepts? Now STOP TROLLING! Ok I see the problem now, you're trying to use the bastion vargur like you would a bastion Paladin. Basically you get your long range and short range bastion marauders right. We're not counting the arty vargur as that has very disappointing dps. You get your long range marauder (any paladin, Rail Kronos, Cruiser Golem. The gun marauders specialise in high tracking high optimal shots meaning they get a LOT of penetrating hits so although their dps is a bit lower (Except for the Paladin since it uses short range guns at long range) they make up for it with the extra damage form penetrating hits. These ships MJD 100km out and blap things before MJD to the gate.
Then you get the short range ones, the Vargur, Blaster kronos and Torp Golem. These guys are good against ships that come in real close or alternatively at MJD right into the middle of enemies depending on mission. These guys have good tracking guns at decent ranges (around 40km give or take) but higher dps than the long range ones (except for Paladin that has good dps at long ranges as well)
In addition the Paladin is the most powerful marauder but it has somewhat limited choice of type of damage but it will do great in amarr space. The Blaster Kronos is most powerfull short range marauder but again limited damage type. The others are a bit more flexible and will be able to do damage equally to all pirate rats for the most part.
Looks to me like the 4 marauders are pretty diverse... |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
934
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 13:36:00 -
[7259] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:So what we have is:
4 Marauders, two that can apply DPS at range, two that cant.
I'll take the vargur.
Autocannons: MJD is pointless, as you cant jump into them - rarely are they 100k off, and using angles ... well, its a case of ok if they approach, your DPS rises, crap if they go back to 50k and spread - your dps is in the 400 range. You nuke your tank with an AB or MWD because you need to chase down spreading rats.
Artillery: MJD to 70k at an angle. Glacial firing rate means you kill one or two ships then need to MJD away. You could try MJD to 100k, but DPS is in the 400 range (thanks CCP). When they are below 50k, traversal kicks in, and you miss more, falloff makes it work. You overvolley small stuff, wasting more dps. My tests put it at well below 400dps on a typical serp Rear Admiral.
At no time can you use Bastion unless you have a mission where they close on you, as you cannot apply high DPS from static.
What it comes down to is 2 ships get to use, and work well with bastion, but Kronos and Vargur get little to nothing on it. Rails are better ranged, but less damage choice.
AI noted that on Sisi, I simply dumped bastion, stuck on a MWD and did my normal thing in mission testing. It was faster. The MJD around game was just a PITA as you cannot use it to best effect with non optimal weapons.
Again, thanks CCP - way to think out of the box, but please rethink. An optimal bonus on the vargur maybe - mens little on autos but lots on artillery?
Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.
Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.
|

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1399
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 13:41:00 -
[7260] - Quote
People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1280
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 13:49:00 -
[7261] - Quote
I bet you've been checking the market every day since this announcement just to find anything close to a 10% fluctuation to prove your point.
Take off the tinfoil hat and adapt. When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first.-áAccept nothing, challenge everything. |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:03:00 -
[7262] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.
Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.
Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all.
Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost.
For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps. For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
427
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:36:00 -
[7263] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:These changes are garbage. The Golem is now completely dependent on target painters since the new RHMLs won't receive the Golem's damage bonus. But I guess that won't be a problem to micromanage since you'll just be sitting there anyway... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
303
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:47:00 -
[7264] - Quote
I fail to understand how you cannot figure out the good **** you can do with those MJD/Bastion-boni and excessive highs + grid, aswell as an extreme repoutput out of one armor-repairer/pith c-type only...
Just tryin those on SiSi is... blasting my mind. Coolest ships in the game for everything wormhole-smallscale pvp. A vanilla-1450dps dropkronos still tanks ~2.7k ehp/s, has dualprop and unlimited cap boosters, poops on all droneboats and got an anticruiser heavy neut. Want.
I admit I do not know how they perform in pve outside of solo c4s, for which they are mindblasting aswell. (Vargur tanks a c4 anom on a T2 large...) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=288823&find=unread - Looking for a handful of well-versed EU pilots. Especially interested in hyperactive dscanners. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
934
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:02:00 -
[7265] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.
Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.
Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all. Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost. For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps. For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps.
A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null.
Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:05:00 -
[7266] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: So you complain that the marauders suck because you are using them wrong they don't fit your preferred playstile?
Now I'm sure that you're kidding with me. But you already wrote the answer by yourself. Just a little touch up will work fine: They won't fit my preferred playstyle. Vargur has been satisfying my needs so far. I am not in request of something new. I just don't want my playstyle to be ***** up by sentry-gun hungry pilots who have been lazy to train gallente BS to level V and get sentry drones with a dominix.
Second, for the "suck" part:
- If they suck, I wouldn't use them. - If there were no enjoyment for me, I wouldn't have trained for it. - If the *efficiency* word has any intersection with Machariel other than the only "ie" in the word itself, I would use that instead of a Vargur. - If you have read my past posts, you'd never come up with an argument like this. - Recommending *will be nerfed* and *not running-cost-efficient* Mach to a *Marauder* pilot, or more precisely, a Vargur pilot, under Marauder balance thread, who have been trying to argue about marauder balance/bonus issues is not a good idea. It won't produce anything.
For a regular lvl4 mission-runner like me, new bonuses doesn't add anything valuable on my arsenal. Instead they take some numbers from me. I didn't like the idea, Vargur without bastion shouldn't get nerf of any kind.
If there is another mobile ship I can fly and salvage at the same time with the similar characteristics of a Vargur, please suggest that, other than that, please do not imply *you're idiot* kind of reply, since I'm just trying to preserve what I've got so far in this game. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
108
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:07:00 -
[7267] - Quote
i think we could agree to the following:
Forceing marauders to get stationary to fully utilize their bonuses is a design flaw |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:10:00 -
[7268] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:i think we could agree to the following:
Forceing marauders to get stationary to fully utilize their bonuses is a design flaw
Well said... |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1281
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:20:00 -
[7269] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.
Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.
Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all. Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost. For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps. For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps. A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null. Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right?
Honestly the Vargur is the only one that draws the short straw in this, and that's because of the crappy way autocannons work. The other three have excellent applications across the board (really if you're using rails in a Kronos post patch for PvE, reconsider your fit and flying method) and high DPS.
I do feel for Vargur pilots, though I feel autocannons may well be in for some reworking once they're done kicking the Machariel in.
When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first.-áAccept nothing, challenge everything. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1454
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:28:00 -
[7270] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage.
yes totally a 4% market flux totally spells disaster There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1283
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:45:00 -
[7271] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage. yes totally a 4% market flux totally spells disaster
And couldn't possibly be a fact that people are upping supply to meet the likely demand come Rubicon.
Nah, the sky's falling and the world is doomed, and all marauders will self destruct the first time they are launched come the expansion. When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first.-áAccept nothing, challenge everything. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
305
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:53:00 -
[7272] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage.
Veldspar recently became cheaper ---> nerf thullium.
Totally conclusive thought process. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=288823&find=unread
- Looking for a handful of well-versed EU pilots. Especially interested in hyperactive dscanners. |

Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
74
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:56:00 -
[7273] - Quote
Considering how my paladin and vargur costed me less than 900 mill, I'd say that Marauders will see a lot of use in the days post Rubi. That might change later, but the first days, Marauders will be the flavor of the month. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |

baltec1
Bat Country
8416
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 16:03:00 -
[7274] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage.
Good I am saving 40 mil on each of my kronos. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 16:56:00 -
[7275] - Quote
the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 17:21:00 -
[7276] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage. yes totally a 4% market flux totally spells disaster
I have seen countries reliability notes droped for far smaller changes :P |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1455
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 18:15:00 -
[7277] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.
i would support this. as optimal and falloff are not eq. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 18:44:00 -
[7278] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating. 8km is close enough to slowboat to the gate.
Quote:And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ? Honestly, I don't know what behind logic was employed in CCP when they were setting new speed. I only claim that while the nerf is noticeable it's not crippling the ship.
And why Vargur got least from rebalancing and new bonuses? Maybe because it already was the best to begin with? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
936
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 18:52:00 -
[7279] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff.
That's lovely until you start talking about autocannons that barely have any optimal as-is. I already said it before: Extending falloff by 5,000% isn't particularly helpful if your optimal only increases by 5km. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 18:57:00 -
[7280] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mer88 wrote:the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff. That's lovely until you start talking about autocannons that barely have any optimal as-is. I already said it before: Extending falloff by 5,000% isn't particularly helpful if your optimal only increases by 5km. I think that it would be actually way OP. I started to train for autocannons when I saw and fell in love with this flat dps curve. If bastion's falloff bonus was improved at the cost of optimal it would be lasers getting shafted. |
|

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 19:53:00 -
[7281] - Quote
[Paladin, Rubicon] True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Large Armor Repairer
Large Micro Jump Drive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion module
Large Energy Burst Aerator II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
(yes, this all fits without implants)
Range with AN Multi in bastion: 69.60km + 46.80km DPS: almost the same as Kronos with null, or Vargur with faction ammo (difference is only a couple of per cent) Tracking: doesn't matter, you only shoot at approaching targets Damage types: doesn't matter, just move to the Amarr Empire
This is all I wanted to say. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 21:21:00 -
[7282] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.
Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.
Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all. Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost. For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps. For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps. A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null. Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right? You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?
Are you even serious? |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 21:29:00 -
[7283] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?
Are you even serious?
I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot.. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 21:44:00 -
[7284] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?
Are you even serious?
I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..
Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided.
Also I get 82km Optimal using all T2 equiment on sisi with my ACs.
I really don't see why you'd want to fit blasters on an unbonussed hull, why would YOU even assume that? |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 21:57:00 -
[7285] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?
Are you even serious?
I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot.. Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided.
You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious.
Anize Oramara wrote: Also I get 82km Optimal using all T2 equiment on sisi with my ACs.
Setup please. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:05:00 -
[7286] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?
Are you even serious?
I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot.. Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided. You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious. Anize Oramara wrote: Also I get 82km Optimal using all T2 equiment on sisi with my ACs.
Setup please. And you are still serious? Dang.. there has to be some kind of miscommunicaiton here we're talking about the kronos, NOT the vargur WRT Null ammo.
Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again: 1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:15:00 -
[7287] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again: 1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed.
That's 78.5km falloff, 4.8km optimal. Stop lying.
|

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
374
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:17:00 -
[7288] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:[quote=Anize Oramara] You can fly a marauder but not use T2 guns?
Are you even serious? I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot.. Well since the DEV was talking about the KRONOS using null being able to hit to 50km fine then theres some reading comprehension problems going on here (and in aint me). Why on EARTH would you fit blasters to your vargur? THAT is trolling. He did not say he was fitting blasters to his Vargur thus I chose to assume he was somewhat sane just misguided. You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious.
The implication from the quote is that the dev feels that bastion range bonuses are fine because one ship gets good range with one gun/ammo type. The addition of " 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null." Indicates that rails, autocannons, artillery, pulse lasers, beam lasers and missiles are all being ignored [in the balance of the bastion bonus that affects all marauders] because blasters work as intended with one ammo type.
|

Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
374
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:40:00 -
[7289] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: I experienced both old and new, a report about which you ignored or just missed. For your convenience, Kronos' performance (measured by time to complete or by ticks) on test server is almost as good as Machariel's on TQ. Vargur's improvement is marginal but it already was almost on par with Mach. If you insist on numbers, during typical good mission my Kronos on TQ earned 10-12 mil ticks while on SiSi it gets in 15-16 mil range without breaking a sweat. Kusum Fawn wrote: Do these missions include salvage? How does the TQ Kronos match against the SiSi Kronos.
Where can the data for these mission/bounty tick averages be found ? They are supposed to be averages of numerous mission completions and salvage and module sales correct? are they running the same set of missions? and how do they compare within the same mission?
My bounty ticks are very different for running (serpentis/Gurista) worlds collide vs (EOM) gone berserk. what mission set is represented in your bounty averages?
I stated clearly, I measure by tick or by time to complete the mission. I don't count salvage nor LP conversion. Yes, they are part of total ISK/hr but they are not direct indicator of ship's performance. I do not understand the matching question. I thought the numbers above are what you asked for. As for ticks, I said typical good, so no averaging, only general good stuff but without extremes. When I could I tried to compare the same missions but my notes are incomplete, so I can vouch only for Gone Berserk and for WC(serp/guri). SiSi vs. TQ times are respectively, 8 vs.9 minutes and 31 vs. 39.
I went back and looked for what you were talking about, is this it? From page 342 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3791291#post3791291
You were using a Sisi Kronos vs a Tq Machariel, Do your TQ times reflect salvage? Or do you not salvage with the Kronos? What are your TQ Kronos times like? The post from page 342 states that you were using a mach and not a Kronos.
It is half of what i was asking about though it seems that you have answered the second part in the quoted section.
-"When I could I tried to compare the same missions but my notes are incomplete, so I can vouch only for Gone Berserk and for WC(serp/guri). SiSi vs. TQ times are respectively, 8 vs.9 minutes and 31 vs. 39"
The sisi times are using Bastion correct? and are you using the same ship for each?
I also agree that Salvage / LP conversion are not to be normally counted for ship(a1) to ship(a2) comparisons but salvage is an important part of the equation when comparing ship(a1) to ship (b1)
ex Kronos(sisi) vs Kronos (TQ) does not need salvage/lp Vargur (sisi) vs Machariel (TQ) should include salvage in their completion times (as well as reshipping time) or include a lowered mission value because of lost/ignored salvage profits.
Also i wasnt asking that question directly to you [hmskrecik] though i am happy that you attempted to answer it. It was to Anize Oramara, of whom i also would like to read some stats from. |

Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
174
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:40:00 -
[7290] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Mer88 wrote:the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff. i would support this. as optimal and falloff are not eq.
Was brought up some 170 pages ago or so.
CCP is concerned with overpowered pulse laser fits, that's why the optimal bonus is above a meta 14 officer TC, yet falloff is below tech 2. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:51:00 -
[7291] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again: 1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed.
That's 78.5km falloff, 4.8km optimal. You are wrong. Edit: put out some flames :) hmm, sisi showed 82km. I might have had one falloff implant not sure. I don't have cybernetics 5 though, just 4 so it wouldn't have been the top of the line one. I expect all mission runners have implants or at least mission runner clones with decent implants?
Is that 78.6km falloff or total range (falloff+optimal?) Will a single implant make up the difference? |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:54:00 -
[7292] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Mer88 wrote:the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff. i would support this. as optimal and falloff are not eq. Was brought up some 170 pages ago or so. CCP is concerned with overpowered pulse laser fits, that's why the optimal bonus is above a meta 14 officer TC, yet falloff is below tech 2.
lasers fights in optimal how does having optimal and falloff bonus bot equal nerfing the laser? doesnt even make sense imo. also why talk about officer tc ? |

Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
118
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:59:00 -
[7293] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People are starting to get it:
Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M
In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped. The market is speaking CCP.
These changes are garbage. Good I am saving 40 mil on each of my kronos.
Or perhaps, just maybe, price wars are driving down costs? |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:16:00 -
[7294] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again: 1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed.
That's 78.5km falloff, 4.8km optimal. You are wrong. Edit: put out some flames :) hmm, sisi showed 82km. I might have had one falloff implant not sure. I don't have cybernetics 5 though, just 4 so it wouldn't have been the top of the line one. I expect all mission runners have implants or at least mission runner clones with decent implants? Is that 78.6km falloff or total range (falloff+optimal?) Will a single implant make up the difference?
Way to miss the point. Falloff is not optimal. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:19:00 -
[7295] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Mer88 wrote:the problem is with the bastion bonus applying equal amount of optimal and falloff range. Optimal should always be less then falloff. it would be better if its 20% optimal and 40% falloff. i would support this. as optimal and falloff are not eq. Was brought up some 170 pages ago or so. CCP is concerned with overpowered pulse laser fits, that's why the optimal bonus is above a meta 14 officer TC, yet falloff is below tech 2.
TBH I wouldn't even care about the falloff bonus if we got the speed back. Isn't that sad? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
428
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:19:00 -
[7296] - Quote
T3s can now refit on the fly with the mobile depot. Marauders are now somewhat obsolete. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:26:00 -
[7297] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:hmskrecik wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste. The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical? grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not estimates for you, im showing closer to: ~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so ~3.65km in 30 sec, and ~1.8KM in 15 sec if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are ~9% ~4.5% ~2.25% Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating. And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?
Please dont get the wrong idea here, I think we are both on similar sides of this argument. Devs said they wanted hulls that dont outdmg the pirates, but get better projection instead... But the vargur doesnt get a projection benefit that would compensate for it being stationary an entire min. (but hey the kronos gets amazing range with null and the paladin get awesome range with scorch, so the vargur must be okay right, lawl)
At any rate, i tried to quit this thread, but i think i may just have to settle for limiting my activity. That being said, i wont do the actual numbers compare when a MJD becomes > MWD, but I would imaging that number would be higher than 60KM as at 50KM the MWD obviously wins, but the MJD essentially requires 2 aligns, 1 for the jump and a 180 turn after you jump. Regardless of comparing prop, I think throughout the thread the argument for a vargur buff of some sort has been made very clear.
Also just some other stuff about the vargur needing a buff:
A) we should avoid bastion when possible as it doesn't offer projection that comes anywhere close to compensating for the lack of mobility
B) If you need a MJD, go dual prop
C) to go dual prop, you either need to lower projection by replacing a TC, or free a tanking slot via bastion, at which point see Point A.
The ship is worse off than it was in TQ... the gap between the vargur and the mach increased with the new looting structure. Unfortunately, i do not anticipate a change and do not anticipate another dev response before Nov 19, I will just hope the nerf to the mach is gracious.... Gallente BS V added to skill queue. RIP vargur (11/19/13)  |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:37:00 -
[7298] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Aaaanyways Fit was already posted but I guess I can again: 1 TE, 4 Gyros, 3 TCs, Bastion, 800s, Large shield booster, Invul, Faction short range ammo, MJD. Cans witch out a TC for a MWD/AB where needed.
That's 78.5km falloff, 4.8km optimal. You are wrong. Edit: put out some flames :) hmm, sisi showed 82km. I might have had one falloff implant not sure. I don't have cybernetics 5 though, just 4 so it wouldn't have been the top of the line one. I expect all mission runners have implants or at least mission runner clones with decent implants? Is that 78.6km falloff or total range (falloff+optimal?) Will a single implant make up the difference? Way to miss the point. Falloff is not optimal. um.. what?
I said I had 82km falloff on sisi on my ACs. What the buck are you talking about optimal now? When I hover my mouse of my ACs when I'm in bastion it shows my range as 82km. (Falloff + Optimal) OR you could say, the point where my falloff ends, 82km.
What part of that do you not understand? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:38:00 -
[7299] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:T3s can now refit on the fly with the mobile depot. Marauders are now somewhat obsolete. Can they refit subsystems? Can they do over 1k dps? Can they loot 800m3 worth of loot adn salvage? Can they salvage on the go?
If not then how do T3s obsolete marauders? |

baltec1
Bat Country
8421
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:47:00 -
[7300] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:T3s can now refit on the fly with the mobile depot. Marauders are now somewhat obsolete.
T3 are slated for a big nerf. |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:54:00 -
[7301] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:You were using a Sisi Kronos vs a Tq Machariel, Do your TQ times reflect salvage? Or do you not salvage with the Kronos? No. When mission is worth salvaging then even if I use a Marauder I still salvage with Noctis. Thus I tend to skip this part any time.
Quote:What are your TQ Kronos times like? Apart from those I already presented? Longer, for every mission I could try on both servers and remembered times. With exception of AE which I badly screwed on SiSi and thus time was more or less the same.
Quote:The sisi times are using Bastion correct? and are you using the same ship for each? Yes, with Bastion and MJD. Ships more or less the same with only major difference being that on TQ I use almost exclusively railguns (some time ago I tested blasters+MWD and results are comparable but a bit worse) while on SiSi I tested mostly with blasters.
Quote:I also agree that Salvage / LP conversion are not to be normally counted for ship(a1) to ship(a2) comparisons but salvage is an important part of the equation when comparing ship(a1) to ship (b1) I'd say that it depends on personal flying style and preferences. Like I mentioned, when I salvage, I salvage with Noctis. Not only because of its bonuses but also because during normal mission I prefer to focus on finishing it and then to focus on salvaging - each activity brings enough own clickfest which I don't have desire to mix.
To explain one thing. I compared SiSi Kronos to TQ Machariel because Mach is my best performing missioning ship so far and thus serves me as a reference point to evaluate other ships. And because I count only bounties, this comparison is less apples-to-oranges as it might look at the first sight.
Quote:Also i wasnt asking that question directly to you [hmskrecik] though i am happy that you attempted to answer it. It was to Anize Oramara, of whom i also would like to read some stats from. Yes, I am aware whom have you asked it. :) Anyway I'd be happy if one day someone returned the favor. I've been to couple similar discussions and while everyone is eager to ask for performance metrics, nobody seem willing to share their own. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
428
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:59:00 -
[7302] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Can they refit subsystems? Can they do over 1k dps? Can they loot 800m3 worth of loot adn salvage? Can they salvage on the go? If not then how do T3s obsolete marauders? Also their tanks are notoriously expensive. The marauder can get away with a 2-3 module T2 tank. Yes (that was the change), yes (all of them can do in excess of 1000 dps; more overheated), yes (with the new loot module) and yes (although really the Noctis is better-suited for this). You've obviously never flown any T3...
baltec1 wrote:T3 are slated for a big nerf. That's what everyone keeps saying, and yet... |

baltec1
Bat Country
8421
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:06:00 -
[7303] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:T3 are slated for a big nerf. That's what everyone keeps saying, and yet...
CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:08:00 -
[7304] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Can they refit subsystems? Can they do over 1k dps? Can they loot 800m3 worth of loot adn salvage? Can they salvage on the go? If not then how do T3s obsolete marauders? Also their tanks are notoriously expensive. The marauder can get away with a 2-3 module T2 tank. Yes (that was the change), yes (all of them can do in excess of 1000 dps; more overheated), yes (with the new loot module) and yes (although really the Noctis is better geared towards this). You've obviously never flown any T3...
So we get a mobile module that can switch out sub systems but they still wont allow us to do it at a POS? Interesting. I wont complain it'll finally allow us to switch out subs in our C5 wormhole. I have 3 lokis that I run C3 sites with (solo or RR), PvP with and run C5 sites with as a support.
Though I'd like to see any t3 without links pull off the tank and range and dps a marauder can. While the looting structure can tracktor at long range its slower and it only tractors one item. It can NOT carry the loot (will have to reship) and if you refit to salvage while a marauder loots and salvages at the same time you are losing time to the marauder.
I'm sorry but what you are decribing you are going to do with a t3 you can just as well do it with a pirate BS or navy BS. Also good luck with the damping, TD and jamming. The t3 is flexible but it can not do all of it at the same time like a marauder can nor as good.
Also I'd love to see one of these 1k dps t3s for each t3 (you said all of them could) that can project that damage out to 50-70km (like most marauders) and still tank a room full of aggro without costing a bill in tank modules or require a full specced booster alt or a head with 2bill in implants. I know for a fact you'll need blasters and ACs and probably HAMs. Yey travel time.
But hay, what do I know about t3s right?
How easy is it so suicide gank one of these mobile depos? Hope it didn't have anything important in them. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
428
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:20:00 -
[7305] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:33:00 -
[7306] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote. Anize Oramara wrote:So we get a mobile module that can switch out sub systems but they still wont allow us to do it at a POS? Interesting. I wont complain it'll finally allow us to switch out subs in our C5 wormhole. I have 3 lokis that I run C3 sites with (solo or RR), PvP with and run C5 sites with as a support. POS, Orca - anything that acts as a fitting station apparently (at least according to CCP). Considering how desperate we've been for this I am genuinely surprised I haven't heard about this before. Is the change on sisi yet? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:34:00 -
[7307] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: estimates for you, im showing closer to: ~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so ~3.65km in 30 sec, and ~1.8KM in 15 sec
if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are ~9% ~4.5% ~2.25%
Would you mind a bit more number juggling?
Assume TQ Vargur goes 1200m/s and on SiSi goes 1000m/s (with the same fit on TQ is actually a bit slower and on SiSi is a bit faster but numbers go nicer this way).
In such situation in 45 seconds TQ Vargur covers 54km. Reverting the speed equation we get that to cover the same distance the SiSi Vargur needs 54 seconds. So let's be clear, the new Vargur wil be in the same place 9 seconds later. During whole that 54 seconds let your DPS be even 10% lower (okay, that's ridiculous but let it stay, I'm making another point here). Now do you want to argue that you need to chase every sinle rat right from the start? Or that you run MWD during whole the mission? Or that all rats are nicely aligned in a single line so the distance difference accumulates beyond all tolerable levels?
Quote:That being said, i wont do the actual numbers compare when a MJD becomes > MWD, but I would imaging that number would be higher than 60KM as at 50KM the MWD obviously wins, Maybe instead try running some missions in different configurations and trying different styles?
Quote:A) we should avoid bastion when possible as it doesn't offer projection that comes anywhere close to compensating for the lack of mobility Bastion's main role is tank, not projection. For projection there is MJD here.
Quote:B) If you need a MJD, go dual prop True. Even if using MJD don't leave home without MWD or at least AB. This goes from experience, not from theory.
Quote:The ship is worse off than it was in TQ... the gap between the vargur and the mach increased with the new looting structure. Unfortunately, i do not anticipate a change and do not anticipate another dev response before Nov 19, I will just hope the nerf to the mach is gracious.... Gallente BS V added to skill queue. RIP vargur (11/19/13)  With all respect, aren't you associated with Incursions community? I heard they are quite fond of drama...
Seriously though, my tests, I still consider them preliminary, suggest that Vargur's performance isn't significantly worse than on TQ and on TQ it was very close to Machariel. What more did you want? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
429
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:38:00 -
[7308] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Considering how desperate we've been for this I am genuinely surprised I haven't heard about this before. Is the change on sisi yet? Was just announced late this afternoon, so I highly doubt it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=292816&p=1 |

Dachhan
Pnex Pwn Squad
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:44:00 -
[7309] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote. Anize Oramara wrote:So we get a mobile module that can switch out sub systems but they still wont allow us to do it at a POS? Interesting. I wont complain it'll finally allow us to switch out subs in our C5 wormhole. I have 3 lokis that I run C3 sites with (solo or RR), PvP with and run C5 sites with as a support. POS, Orca - anything that acts as a fitting station apparently (at least according to CCP). Considering how desperate we've been for this I am genuinely surprised I haven't heard about this before. Is the change on sisi yet?
FYI https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=292816&find=unread
|

baltec1
Bat Country
8421
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 00:59:00 -
[7310] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote.
There is one in the old HAC thread, several more scattered about. We have known this for the last six months, you should know about it if you have been paying any attention, CCP do not want T3 overshadowing T2 hulls. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
429
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 01:16:00 -
[7311] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There is one in the old HAC thread, several more scattered about. We have known this for the last six months, you should know about it if you have been paying any attention, CCP do not want T3 overshadowing T2 hulls. Considering how they buffed HACs - let alone the new SoE ships, good luck justifying any kind of serious nerf. It's more likely they'll adjust the power grid and some of the base armor and shield stats. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 02:55:00 -
[7312] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Would you mind a bit more number juggling?
Assume TQ Vargur goes 1200m/s and on SiSi goes 1000m/s (with the same fit on TQ is actually a bit slower and on SiSi is a bit faster but numbers go nicer this way).
In such situation in 45 seconds TQ Vargur covers 54km. Reverting the speed equation we get that to cover the same distance the SiSi Vargur needs 54 seconds. So let's be clear, the new Vargur wil be in the same place 9 seconds later. During whole that 54 seconds let your DPS be even 10% lower (okay, that's ridiculous but let it stay, I'm making another point here). Now do you want to argue that you need to chase every sinle rat right from the start? Or that you run MWD during whole the mission? Or that all rats are nicely aligned in a single line so the distance difference accumulates beyond all tolerable levels?
I threw out some estimates for what the 7.3KM or so were worth in terms of end distance. Not really trying to say much other than that it is a nerf, and to give some type of reference to what that nerf was worth... I tried to make the post as neutral as possible to avoid replies, but it backfired and I got a reply from someone who supports a buff as we as someone who thinks they are okay as is xD.
The more specific problem I have with mobility is that it was reduced to add a bastion module that should not be used unless absolutely necessary. Given that dmg is better outside bastion, and that you dont free up slots without bastion, its just a straight nerf to general mission running. (I do plan on using the vargur for a few serp missions: Massive Attack, The Blockade, The Assault)
hmskrecik wrote: Maybe instead try running some missions in different configurations and trying different styles?
If you have some suggestions I would gladly to hear them, and I'm not saying that to be spiteful, I like the ship and dont want to see it go. AC > arty at distances before ~48km-50km, which makes artys invalid (without even taking high alpha / overkill into the equation). whenever you use bastion you will lose dps as only need to move around 4km before you start doing more damage than the bastioned vargur.
hmskrecik wrote: Bastion's main role is tank, not projection. For projection there is MJD here.
perhaps i misread Ytterbium?:
CCP Ytterbium wrote: It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better. ... We also are increasing their maximum targeting range and scan resolution a bit to make use of the increased damage projection... ... As we realized when internally playtesting iteration 2, web bonuses don't combine that well with hulls using MJDs to move around or increased projection in Bastion. ... They are supposed to fulfill a different role / niche through their high tanks, stable weapon platforms (EW immunity, increase damage projection) and MJDs
From what I can tell, projection is an important factor in this rebalance. Mach and Vargur have the same hull bonus to projection, and the vargur does not get meaningful projection from bastion.
hmskrecik wrote: Seriously though, my tests, I still consider them preliminary, suggest that Vargur's performance isn't significantly worse than on TQ and on TQ it was very close to Machariel. What more did you want?
Either shiny dmg inc mods werent equal or poor angular reduction / not using enough mobility on the Mach. Mach gets twice the bandwidth + a ~9.5% lead in turret dps + much better mobility. Vargur doesnt even have enough projection to out do the armor Mach's turret dps lead, let alone the speed.
What I want if i cant have a straight dps increase, is more projection and/or mobility added to the hull. |

Dato Koppla
Perkone Caldari State
333
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 06:16:00 -
[7313] - Quote
Mach is just hands down better for missions, the mobility and bandwith play a big role on top of the already better turret dps. I MWD right up to 20km from the blob of NPCs while shooting, stop, drop 4 sentries and lay down 1.2k dps. You get 125m3 bandwith too so you don't even have to give up light drones that you need when the odd frig or two gets under your guns. When everything is dead you can easily scoop the sentries and scoot off to the next gate/mission item @ 1.5km/s. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
942
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 06:41:00 -
[7314] - Quote
Since we seem to have sidetracked into a discussion/argument about T3 balance, let me just leave this here for you.
This comes from the presentation during FanFest 2013 and clearly shows that in terms of absolute power, pirate ships are intended to be above T2 ships and that T3 ships are intended to be equal to Navy ships.
Please don't ask me what "absolute power" means. That's a question for Team Ship RebalancingGäó.
--
With regards to the AC and their "flat damage curve" I can tell you as a projectile pilot that once you go about halfway into your falloff you're better off opening the window and shooting insults at the enemy. That's why I keep saying the Vargur needs a better optimal bonus than falloff - Projectile weapons already have so much falloff that you're going to get quite a lot of it no matter what bonus you give it, but optimal is so small that it needs a stronger bonus to achieve the same effect.
Before you ask, I've been running L4s in a Loki ever since we even had Lokis to run L4s in. You learn really quickly how terrible your DPS is with ACs in deep falloff. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8422
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 07:11:00 -
[7315] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is one in the old HAC thread, several more scattered about. We have known this for the last six months, you should know about it if you have been paying any attention, CCP do not want T3 overshadowing T2 hulls. Considering how they buffed HACs - let alone the new SoE ships, good luck justifying any kind of serious nerf. It's more likely they'll adjust the power grid and some of the base armor and shield stats.
They will defiantly be losing the battleship class tanks. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
587
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:10:00 -
[7316] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote.
It's a puicture, admittedly but it's also CCP's statement on how they want the power level of the various ships to be. Have fun reading it.
Da Quote
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
943
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:12:00 -
[7317] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote. It's a puicture, admittedly but it's also CCP's statement on how they want the power level of the various ships to be. Have fun reading it. Da Quote
Ah, but yours is from June 2012 and out of date. Have a new one, from Fanfest 2013. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
431
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:13:00 -
[7318] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Since we seem to have sidetracked into a discussion/argument about T3 balance, let me just leave this here for you.This comes from the presentation during FanFest 2013 and clearly shows that in terms of absolute power, pirate ships are intended to be above T2 ships and that T3 ships are intended to be equal to Navy ships. Please don't ask me what "absolute power" means. That's a question for Team Ship RebalancingGäó. Just a momentary detourGǪ I'm not sure if you can necessarily equate "absolute power" with "improvement". If this is viewed as a pyramid, I see Pirate, T2 and T3 all on opposite ends of the spectrum - with Navy in the middle. I think the only thing you can take away from this is that it seems to go T1 - Navy - Pirate/T2/T3. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
943
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:17:00 -
[7319] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Since we seem to have sidetracked into a discussion/argument about T3 balance, let me just leave this here for you.This comes from the presentation during FanFest 2013 and clearly shows that in terms of absolute power, pirate ships are intended to be above T2 ships and that T3 ships are intended to be equal to Navy ships. Please don't ask me what "absolute power" means. That's a question for Team Ship RebalancingGäó. Just a momentary detourGǪ I'm not sure if you can necessarily equate "absolute power" with "improvement". If this is viewed as a pyramid, I see Pirate, T2 and T3 all on opposite ends of the spectrum - with Navy in the middle. I think the only thing you can take away from this is that everything is superior to T1. This was also pre-HAC and command ship rebalance, and pre-SoE ships.
Fortunately, it's a graph and not a pyramid. It's also the chart that they're using for the HAC and CS rebalance as well as the for the new Pirate ships.
I seriously doubt that they change the chart every single time they touch a ship class. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
431
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:24:00 -
[7320] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Fortunately, it's a graph and not a pyramid. It's also the chart that they're using for the HAC and CS rebalance as well as the for the new Pirate ships.
I seriously doubt that they change the chart every single time they touch a ship class. I can't tell from the chart if this is where things are, or if this is where they're headed. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:27:00 -
[7321] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP have stated they will fall between T1 and T2 so a big nerf is inevitable. I'd love to see that quote. It's a puicture, admittedly but it's also CCP's statement on how they want the power level of the various ships to be. Have fun reading it. Da Quote Ah, but yours is from June 2012 and out of date. Have a new one, from Fanfest 2013.
Lol, the only thing that didn't change in that picture is T1, T2* and T3. xD
*Edit |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
944
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 08:36:00 -
[7322] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Fortunately, it's a graph and not a pyramid. It's also the chart that they're using for the HAC and CS rebalance as well as the for the new Pirate ships.
I seriously doubt that they change the chart every single time they touch a ship class. I can't tell from the chart if this is where things are, or if this is where they're headed.
This is how the envision that the ships should be in relation to each other, so that would classify it as "where they're headed". |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 09:01:00 -
[7323] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:At any rate, i tried to quit this thread, but i think i may just have to settle for limiting my activity. That being said, i wont do the actual numbers compare when a MJD becomes > MWD, but I would imaging that number would be higher than 60KM as at 50KM the MWD obviously wins, but the MJD essentially requires 2 aligns, 1 for the jump and a 180 turn after you jump. Regardless of comparing prop, I think throughout the thread the argument for a vargur buff of some sort has been made very clear. Also just some other stuff about terrible vargur prop: A) we should avoid bastion when possible as it doesn't offer projection that comes anywhere close to compensating for the lack of mobility B) If you need a MJD, go dual prop C) to go dual prop, you either need to lower projection by replacing a TC, or free a tanking slot via bastion, at which point see Point A. The ship is worse off than it was in TQ... the gap between the vargur and the mach increased with the new looting structure. Unfortunately, i do not anticipate a change and do not anticipate another dev response before Nov 19, I will just hope the nerf to the mach is gracious.... Gallente BS V added to skill queue. RIP vargur (11/19/13) 
Hahahahahahaha! (-^.O-) (Evil maniac laugh with evil look)
Chaos, we are loosing this battle mate. But, anyway, I don't feel bad for this, because I fought pretty well and long enough with my ideas, with my support to mobile play, with my anti-support to mael-domi breed.
Our ideas have no more shield left. They have no more armor left. While hull is getting lowered to last bit of it, along with ringing alarms everywhere, a nice glimpse in my face turns into enjoyment of loosing a billions-of-worth-hull, with an experienced emotion on my face, knowing that opposition thinks that they guaranteed a nice kill, without knowing that I've already aligned and half of my cap still left for overheated boosting and turning situation upside down.
They'll never, ever be able to experience this anymore after 19th with their stunning marauders, they'll forget what shield alarm is, what armor alarm is, what HULL alarm is, with all content laying dead 50-100km ahead of them. All things come down to the numbers, forgetting the gameplay they want has already been exists in game for years with other ships. Immersion is lost a little bit more, and all come down to numbers and staying away from enemy, exchanging another slot for more tracking and killing fast, 100km ahead. Yet, forgetting Marauders were meant to be a close-range and people who have been happy with them trained them to enjoy close-range warfare. (Maybe golem could be an exception)
Arguing to adapt to long-range play from now on, which is out of question for already-available-playstyle of Marauders, will leave close-range players like me to train for another **** that is waiting to get nerfed in the future, yet loosing hundreds of hours of training to go into the garbage.
No, they don't understand this, they won't understand it. All they care is hitting objects 100km ahead, while won't caring about stuff nearby, they can jumo to another 100km to open the gap anyway. Less worries, less risk, easier gameplay... |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
635
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 09:11:00 -
[7324] - Quote
I get amazed how many peopel do not KNOW how to pilot their ships. The point of vargur speed is not simply to get from point a to point B. Its to MATCH cruisers speed and transversal ZEROING their transversal, amplifying a LOT your DPS.
Also amazing how some of the peopel here saying the base 15ms speed reduction means nothing, were a few months ago screaming for neerf winamtar in every thread because they were 20-25 ms faster than other races. Double standards? or short memory? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 09:20:00 -
[7325] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:I get amazed how many peopel do not KNOW how to pilot their ships. The point of vargur speed is not simply to get from point a to point B. Its to MATCH cruisers speed and transversal ZEROING their transversal, amplifying a LOT your DPS.
Also amazing how some of the peopel here saying the base 15ms speed reduction means nothing, were a few months ago screaming for neerf winamtar in every thread because they were 20-25 ms faster than other races. Double standards? or short memory?
Just look at the post, before yours. You'll see the pattern there ;) I am good to hear that still rare amount of people knows why there is a good speed in Vargur, when even devs have forgotten it. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 10:01:00 -
[7326] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote: Hahahahahahaha! (-^.O-) (Evil maniac laugh with evil look)
Chaos, we are loosing this battle mate. But, anyway, I don't feel bad for this, because I fought pretty well and long enough with my ideas, with my support to mobile play, with my anti-support to mael-domi breed.
Our ideas have no more shield left. They have no more armor left. While hull is getting lowered to last bit of it, along with ringing alarms everywhere, a nice glimpse in my face turns into enjoyment of loosing a billions-of-worth-hull, with an experienced emotion on my face, knowing that opposition thinks that they guaranteed a nice kill, without knowing that I've already aligned and half of my cap still left for overheated boosting and turning situation upside down.
They'll never, ever be able to experience this anymore after 19th with their stunning marauders, they'll forget what shield alarm is, what armor alarm is, what HULL alarm is, with all content laying dead 50-100km ahead of them. All things come down to the numbers, forgetting the gameplay they want has already been exists in game for years with other ships. Immersion is lost a little bit more, and all come down to numbers and staying away from enemy, exchanging another slot for more tracking and killing fast, 100km ahead. Yet, forgetting Marauders were meant to be a close-range and people who have been happy with them trained them to enjoy close-range warfare. (Maybe golem could be an exception)
Arguing to adapt to long-range play from now on, which is out of question for already-available-playstyle of Marauders, will leave close-range players like me to train for another **** that is waiting to get nerfed in the future, yet throwing hundreds of hours of training to go into the garbage.
No, they don't understand this, they won't understand it. All they care is hitting objects 100km ahead, while won't caring about stuff nearby, they can jump another 100km to open the gap anyway. Less worries, less risk, easier gameplay...
Dat drama  |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 11:11:00 -
[7327] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Shivanthar wrote: Hahahahahahaha! (-^.O-) (Evil maniac laugh with evil look)
Chaos, we are loosing this battle mate. But, anyway, I don't feel bad for this, because I fought pretty well and long enough with my ideas, with my support to mobile play, with my anti-support to mael-domi breed.
Our ideas have no more shield left. They have no more armor left. While hull is getting lowered to last bit of it, along with ringing alarms everywhere, a nice glimpse in my face turns into enjoyment of loosing a billions-of-worth-hull, with an experienced emotion on my face, knowing that opposition thinks that they guaranteed a nice kill, without knowing that I've already aligned and half of my cap still left for overheated boosting and turning situation upside down.
They'll never, ever be able to experience this anymore after 19th with their stunning marauders, they'll forget what shield alarm is, what armor alarm is, what HULL alarm is, with all content laying dead 50-100km ahead of them. All things come down to the numbers, forgetting the gameplay they want has already been exists in game for years with other ships. Immersion is lost a little bit more, and all come down to numbers and staying away from enemy, exchanging another slot for more tracking and killing fast, 100km ahead. Yet, forgetting Marauders were meant to be a close-range and people who have been happy with them trained them to enjoy close-range warfare. (Maybe golem could be an exception)
Arguing to adapt to long-range play from now on, which is out of question for already-available-playstyle of Marauders, will leave close-range players like me to train for another **** that is waiting to get nerfed in the future, yet throwing hundreds of hours of training to go into the garbage.
No, they don't understand this, they won't understand it. All they care is hitting objects 100km ahead, while won't caring about stuff nearby, they can jump another 100km to open the gap anyway. Less worries, less risk, easier gameplay...
Dat drama 
It is for sure that what I'll be doing as a Vargur pilot will be called as a good drama. There is still some hope left. Still 2 more weeks to go. Maybe they'll revise, maybe they'll completely revert and create another shipline with bastion's bonuses as a base bonus or maybe they'll just revert all changes and apply some fixes to marauder hulls as general including revisiting some bonuses and tr. beam ranges.
Don't misunderstand me! The danger of Marauders being ****** up is very real, but fearing from it is only a choice. Don Quixote versus mill is my long-time-inspiration anyway!  |

Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
78
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 12:55:00 -
[7328] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Boosts all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
With the introduction of Rapid heavy missile launchers as a choice on BS Hulls Can you include Heavy missiles in the bastion and Golem boosts. |

baltec1
Bat Country
8423
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 13:11:00 -
[7329] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote: With the introduction of Rapid heavy missile launchers as a choice on BS Hulls Can you include Heavy missiles in the bastion and Golem boosts.
They want you to have a reason to fly the other BS. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 13:16:00 -
[7330] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Boosts all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
With the introduction of Rapid heavy missile launchers as a choice on BS Hulls Can you include Heavy missiles in the bastion and Golem boosts.
you obvisually did not read anything about RHML did you?
|
|

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1298
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 14:08:00 -
[7331] - Quote
This thread needs an FAQ section for the following.
"Where's my web bonus?"
"Why doesn't the Golem affect RHML?"
"Why doesn't Bastion have a damage bonus?"
Because it seems impossible for people to go back three pages to the last time said question was asked. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 14:13:00 -
[7332] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:This thread needs an FAQ section for the following.
"Where's my web bonus?"
"Why doesn't the Golem affect RHML?"
"Why doesn't Bastion have a damage bonus?"
Because it seems impossible for people to go back three pages to the last time said question was asked.
It's the same with AFK cloaking or paid name change threads. 
I think it's some kind of sublime falsified message or subconsious instinct "If one question is asked often enough, it'll somehow become a valid, sensible and logically request backed up by everyone." |

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
587
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 14:15:00 -
[7333] - Quote
or why does the golem still have a target painter bonus? |

Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
78
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 14:18:00 -
[7334] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Dav Varan wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Boosts all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
With the introduction of Rapid heavy missile launchers as a choice on BS Hulls Can you include Heavy missiles in the bastion and Golem boosts. you obvisually did not read anything about RHML did you?
There are no dev responses in this thread to read on the subject of Maurader/RHML
If I missed that can you supply #number so I can see please.
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 14:20:00 -
[7335] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:or why does the golem still have a target painter bonus?
Maybe for the same reason the other marauders still get their damage or damage application bonus? |

Kane Fenris
NWP
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 15:39:00 -
[7336] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote: There are no dev responses in this thread to read on the subject of Maurader/RHML
If I missed that can you supply #number so I can see please.
If you have something useful to add don't be shy.
If you have nothing to add why bother convoluting the thread ?
Making incorrect assumptions and statements as to what I may or may not have done isnt very constuctive is it ! But then some people just like to jump up and down and wave there arms around for attention don't they.
theres a whole thread about it: [Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers
now i hear you saying: "but theres nothing about the Golem !!!!!11111"
right but let me ask you a question: what would make the golem not op haveing bonuses applied that other bs have?
Debora Tsung wrote:Harvey James wrote:or why does the golem still have a target painter bonus? Maybe for the same reason the other marauders still get their damage or damage application bonus?
i believe hes referring to ccp saying the thought about replacing tp bonus with explosion radius....
to this i say leave my precious tp bonus its actually better than a expl. bonus anyway
|

Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
78
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 16:08:00 -
[7337] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:theres a whole thread about it: [Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchersnow i hear you saying: "but theres nothing about the Golem !!!!!11111" right but let me ask you a question: what would make the golem not op haveing bonuses applied that other bs have?
I don't know what your saying there.
Making RHML bonused would not make the golem op in the same way that bonusing Dual 250mm Rails won't make a kronos op.
It's just a choice you make when doing your fittings. Better v big stuff or better v fast stuff.
The RHML is to Cruise launchers what the Dual 250 is to 425mm
Its just the weaker launcher thats easier to fit and is better at hitting fast stuff at the expense of dps. Thats why it needs to have its bonuses otherwise useless.
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 16:18:00 -
[7338] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:theres a whole thread about it: [Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchersnow i hear you saying: "but theres nothing about the Golem !!!!!11111" right but let me ask you a question: what would make the golem not op haveing bonuses applied that other bs have? I don't know what your saying there. Making RHML bonused would not make the golem op in the same way that bonusing Dual 250mm Rails won't make a kronos op. It's just a choice you make when doing your fittings. Better v big stuff or better v fast stuff. The RHML is to Cruise launchers what the Dual 250 is to 425mm Its just the weaker launcher thats easier to fit and is better at hitting fast stuff at the expense of dps. Thats why it needs to have its bonuses otherwise useless.
im saying if you seriously think having bonuses apply other than those who affect the number of effective launchers (missile velocity is debateable though), wont break the game ballance your insane or stupid you may choose which. if you seriously think thos bonuses should apply plz post in the RHML thread cause it concerns the launcher not the golem....
|

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 16:48:00 -
[7339] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Dav Varan wrote: There are no dev responses in this thread to read on the subject of Maurader/RHML
If I missed that can you supply #number so I can see please.
If you have something useful to add don't be shy.
If you have nothing to add why bother convoluting the thread ?
Making incorrect assumptions and statements as to what I may or may not have done isnt very constuctive is it ! But then some people just like to jump up and down and wave there arms around for attention don't they.
theres a whole thread about it: [Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchersnow i hear you saying: "but theres nothing about the Golem !!!!!11111" right but let me ask you a question: what would make the golem not op haveing bonuses applied that other bs have? Debora Tsung wrote:Harvey James wrote:or why does the golem still have a target painter bonus? Maybe for the same reason the other marauders still get their damage or damage application bonus? i believe hes referring to ccp saying the thought about replacing tp bonus with explosion radius.... to this i say leave my precious tp bonus its actually better than a expl. bonus anyway
yes and no really.... TP is only useful if you can target a ship, and if that ship is immune to e-war or not.. seems a bit silly for an e-war immune ships (bastion mode) to get a bonus to an e-war mod.. Also if uses up a mid slot which reduces options... also since the rest don't have bonuses to Tracking computers golem shoudn't have one for TP's. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 17:20:00 -
[7340] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Kane Fenris wrote: to this i say leave my precious tp bonus its actually better than a expl. bonus anyway
yes and no really.... TP is only useful if you can target a ship, and if that ship is immune to e-war or not.. seems a bit silly for an e-war immune ships (bastion mode) to get a bonus to an e-war mod.. Also if uses up a mid slot which reduces options... also since the rest don't have bonuses to Tracking computers golem shoudn't have one for TP's.
you may have a point in pvp but in pve the only ewar immune ship i can think of is zor. the pve use of autotargetting missiles is .... lets call it limited despite all that with tps you can help your fleet in wh' incursions and in pvp too... last don't see any reason why the non existence of a tc bonus should prohibit the exsitence of a tp bonus |
|

Theia Matova
Frozen Dawn Academy Arctic Light
117
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 18:27:00 -
[7341] - Quote
Just tried Paladin at sisi and being utterly disappointed not even knowing where to start.
I utterly dislike bastion module as concept. We already have dreadnoughts and other similar mechanics in EVE why do we need another idiotic stuck in place mechanism more? I thought that battleships were slow enough as they already were.
Secondly to introduce such stuck logic to ship hull that are named marauders is simply hilarious https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/marauder instead of 'looting rascal' eve marauder resembles more of brick that can be tossed to 10m.
After sisi test I could barely hit to moving vagabond in 100km distance with tachyon and unltraviolet crystals.. I had imperial crystals and tracking computer and hit its only few times. It seems to me that bastion mode is way too easy to be ganged. You have to wait for the cycle to end and align. Fast cruiser gets to you way faster and you are simply sardine in a can waiting for destruction.
This ship type seems to be only good to use with fleet since its too vulnerable to do anything alone. Ironically it also feels that bastion mechanism makes t2 battleship weaker to its t1 breathren.
Feelings: (-/+) - Bastion mechanism - Micro jump drive mechanism - Vulnerability of expensive ship does not justify that this hull type is transformed into expensive space coffin that simply waits for the match to fire it up - Beam lasers seem not to be able to hit **** - Lasers hit easily up to 100km without much problem t2 tractor beam reached up to 48 km which does not warm your heart when you are stuck in bastion mode -_- + Bastion deploy look of paladin
Conclusion: If paladin will come out with bastion type module that kills maneuveribility of this expensive t2 hull. I won't fly the ship hull and the marauders as concept and ship type remain broken. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
433
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 18:45:00 -
[7342] - Quote
http://www.eveonline.com/rubicon/features/rebalancing-and-roles/
Quote:Marauders Their power improved and role expanded, the Marauders have gone from very niche to a stronger, specialized class with two distinct modes, excelling in harassment tactics. GÇó Regular Mode GÇô Functioning similar to how they have in the past, the post-Rubicon Marauder can now use Micro JumpDrives at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield. If Marauders are indeed supposed to excel at "harassment", then why not just make them a tad faster (they should really be almost as fast as T1s). This would certainly help outside of Bastion mode.
GÇó Paladin (proposed) = 110 m/s (+10) GǪ Paladin (new) = 100 m/s, Paladin (old) = 105 m/s, Apocalypse = 113 m/s, Navy Apocalypse = 120 m/s GÇó Golem (proposed) = 110 m/s (+10) GǪ Golem (new) = 100 m/s, Golem (old) = 105 m/s, Raven = 113 m/s, Navy Raven = 123 m/s GÇó Kronos (proposed) = 115 m/s (+10) GǪ Kronos (new) = 105 m/s, Kronos (old) = 120 m/s, Megathron = 122 m/s, Navy Megathron = 130 m/s GÇó Vargur (proposed) = 120 m/s (+10) GǪ Vargur (new) = 110 m/s, Vargur (old) = 130 m/s, Tempest = 127 m/s, Navy Tempest = 130 m/s
As for the Golem, the TP bonus is fine - but it should still receive the 100% damage bonus for the RHMLs. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 19:01:00 -
[7343] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:Just tried Paladin at sisi and being utterly disappointed not even knowing where to start. I utterly dislike bastion module as concept. We already have dreadnoughts and other similar mechanics in EVE why do we need another idiotic stuck in place mechanism more? I thought that battleships were slow enough as they already were. Secondly to introduce such stuck logic to ship hull that are named marauders is simply hilarious https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/marauder instead of 'looting rascal' eve marauder resembles more of brick that can be tossed to 10m. After sisi test I could barely hit to moving vagabond in 100km distance with tachyon and unltraviolet crystals.. I had imperial crystals and tracking computer and hit its only few times. It seems to me that bastion mode is way too easy to be ganged. You have to wait for the cycle to end and align. Fast cruiser gets to you way faster and you are simply sardine in a can waiting for destruction. This ship type seems to be only good to use with fleet since its too vulnerable to do anything alone. Ironically it also feels that bastion mechanism makes t2 battleship weaker to its t1 breathren. Feelings: (-/+) - Bastion mechanism - Micro jump drive mechanism - Vulnerability of expensive ship does not justify that this hull type is transformed into expensive space coffin that simply waits for the match to fire it up - Beam lasers seem not to be able to hit **** - Lasers hit easily up to 100km without much problem t2 tractor beam reached up to 48 km which does not warm your heart when you are stuck in bastion mode -_- + Bastion deploy look of paladin Conclusion: If paladin will come out with bastion type module that kills maneuveribility of this expensive t2 hull. I won't fly the ship hull and the marauders as concept and ship type remain broken.
You're third, after me and one other guy on this exact concept :P Just beware tough, there is a guy marauding with a trebuchet around here somewhere who gets really angry when something like this is posted :P He might show up anytime now!    |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
128
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 19:06:00 -
[7344] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I threw out some estimates for what the 7.3KM or so were worth in terms of end distance. Not really trying to say much other than that it is a nerf, and to give some type of reference to what that nerf was worth... I tried to make the post as neutral as possible to avoid replies, but it backfired and I got a reply from someone who supports a buff as we as someone who thinks they are okay as is xD. I too usually don't get responses of the kind I expect. Welcome to the club. ;)
There is a nerf and there is a nerf. Ship's reduction could be by 5m/s, by 20m/s and by 100m/s. The first would be practically irrelevant, the last one would be really crippling. And the middle one, well, we're talking about it. I do not argue that this speed decrease is insignificant. And I too understand the lore that Minmatars are supposed to be fast and nimble. What I discussed were consequences of this nerf, which in my opinion, based both on theoretical analysis and practical tests, aren't that severe. They are, of course, just not to the point of making ship useless.
Quote:If you have some suggestions I would gladly to hear them, and I'm not saying that to be spiteful, I like the ship and dont want to see it go. AC > arty at distances before ~48km-50km, which makes artys invalid (without even taking high alpha / overkill into the equation). whenever you use bastion you will lose dps as only need to move around 4km before you start doing more damage than the bastioned vargur. Since you asked nicely I'd reply even if you tried to be spiteful.
I do not have complete answer to this question as this is still fresh idea and I still learn how to use the stuff. I can repeat what I stated earlier in this thread: if you try to fly marauders old way you will feel bigger or lower nerf. The trick is to use both bastion and MJD. Really. Contrary to what you wrote, bastion shouldn't be used only for ohcrap moments. To get best from the ship you should learn when you need and when you don't need to be deployed.
Same for MJD, the best situation is if you can keep leapfrogging from group to group. Usually you can't but you can use your mobility, be it with MWD, AB or just slowboating, to get into such position that next MJD be used best. Takes bit of spatial thinking and bit of forward thinking. You need to be aware where you are and where you want to be in the next minute.
Let me repeat, bastion and MJD should be used on tactical, not strategical level. I'm still learning to use them properly and this is the best information: if using them wrong (MJD when misaligned, forgot to turn off bastion, etc) gets me results which are already better than on TQ, go figure what it's gonna be when I achieve actual proficiency.
Quote: perhaps i misread Ytterbium?: [snip]
Perhaps you didn't. What I'm saying is that with those fits I use bastion is the fourth dmg application module. Since it's stacked its effect is rather mediocre. Taking into account what I wrote above, when you use bastion on regular basis, you can and should drop a little from tank and/or from application. For example, on Vargur I use 2xTE and 1xTC, when bastioned I rescript TC for tracking as every bit helps in falloff range.
This way or another, much better effect you will get with combination of MJD and other propulsion to get into range quick.
Quote:hmskrecik wrote: Seriously though, my tests, I still consider them preliminary, suggest that Vargur's performance isn't significantly worse than on TQ and on TQ it was very close to Machariel. What more did you want?
Either shiny dmg inc mods werent equal or poor angular reduction / not using enough mobility on the Mach. Mach gets twice the bandwidth + a ~9.5% lead in turret dps + much better mobility. Vargur doesnt even have enough projection to out do the armor Mach's turret dps lead, let alone the speed. What I want if i cant have a straight dps increase, is more projection and/or mobility added to the hull. On first impulse I wanted to discuss about using sentries with fast ships but I decided against. Point is, I really prefer talking about such things in terms of performance. EFT is a great tool and has its place but I'd really, really, really like to have discussion of the kind: "all other things being equal, when I fly A ship this way I get X ticks and when I fly B ship that way I get Y ticks". I'm a bit fed up with stats analysis, esp. since the changes are available on test server.
And regarding your last sentence, you have it and it's just you hate to use bastion/MJD. Fair enough but so far the balance, regarding my Vargur, looks like this:
SiSi Vargur + bastion + MJD >= TQ Vargur > SiSi Vargur naked |

Theia Matova
Frozen Dawn Academy Arctic Light
118
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 19:17:00 -
[7345] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:You're third, after me and one other guy on this exact concept :P Just beware tough, there is a guy marauding with a trebuchet around here somewhere who gets really angry when something like this is posted :P He might show up anytime now!   
There is always some troll no matter what is discussed. For some of them people should blame dev alts.
If someone wants this death can then make new ship hull type 'golden suicide pod', remove the tractor beam bonus, give it more fair chance to hit targets that it should be able to git. but don't **** the marauder hulls more than they already are. -_-
|

Theia Matova
Frozen Dawn Academy Arctic Light
118
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 19:37:00 -
[7346] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Because it seems impossible for people to go back three pages to the last time said question was asked. Thread is soon 400 pages long. Do you expect everyone to read everything? Common questions and matters that worry people the most should be answered in the main post call it a faq if you like. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 22:00:00 -
[7347] - Quote
Strange, it seems the only people actually testing the changes thoroughly is the guys who think the changes improve lv4 mission running.
I mean if that wasn't true then it'd be easy to prove yes? And yet...
Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission) [Vargur, Bastion] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II
Hobgoblin II x10 Salvage Drone I x5 Tracking Speed Script x3 Republic Fleet EMP L x8560
For good measure I'm running high grade crystal WITHOUT Omega and 2 5% damage implants and 2 5% Capacitor implants (recharge and capacity) and a 6% falloff implant.
My character is only a 30mill sp character so it's far from max skilled and no bling AT ALL. lv3 marauder, decent Gun skills good cap and shield skills.
The time is in minutes from warping into the site to warping out of the site (aka out of bastion and in warp)
I've been testing the depo as well. I can see where it could be usefull (Worlds collide, AE Bonus room, refit a MWD to get rid of the cap penalty etc.) but it is not the be all end all of amazing. It does work nicely with the 1min bastion time though. A nice little tool for those that want to go the extra mile. It would have been useful in cargo delivery. I took some armor damage (70% armor left) but managed to make it through with a MWD fitted.
Also note that a lot of these missions I've only ever run once with bastion so mistakes were made etc. There is room for improvement.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkNC5KM1CqPkdDJueEc1cmxWWENvaHhTakhyMmViOUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 00:11:00 -
[7348] - Quote
Question: I want to look at using the paladin, should I look at tachyons, mega beams or mega pulse? I do not have T2 gun skills on sisi yet and have never used laser weapons at all ever. I want to compare, even a low skilled paladin against a vargur running sansha/blood missions. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 02:53:00 -
[7349] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: What I'm saying is that with those fits I use, bastion is the fourth dmg application module. Since it's stacked, its effect is rather mediocre. Taking into account what I wrote above, when you use bastion on regular basis, you can and should drop a little from tank and/or from application. For example, on Vargur I use 2xTE + 1xTC and when bastioned I rescript TC for tracking, as every bit helps in falloff range.
This way or another, much better effect you will get with combination of MJD and other propulsion to get into range quick. ...
And regarding your last sentence, you have it and it's just you hate to use bastion/MJD. Fair enough but so far the balance, regarding my Vargur, looks like this:
SiSi Vargur + bastion + MJD >= TQ Vargur > SiSi Vargur naked
I am glad you posted this. I doubt we will reach an agreement on the vargur, but seeing the above, I can understand why we disagree. First let me say 2 TE, 1TC was pretty popular before TEs were nerfed. After that, most vargur loadouts went 2TC, 1TE.
Im going to assume a few things on your tq loadout so i am probably not 100% correct, but I imagine it went something along the lines of this:
gyro x3 TE x2
TC prop tank x4 <--- very easy to drop a tank mod for something else via bastion
800 IIs x4
burst II some other rig
On this loadout, assuming faction ammo, TC, gyros (before implants), you're dealing approx 731 dps @ 40km (opt / falloff 4+62). with bastion your dps jumps to 781 (4.6+68), ~6.8% increase in your dps. A decent increase. You would still only need to move about 4km to start outdmging bastion, but considering it's very easy to drop a tanking module and you get a MJD on top of it, it doesnt seem like a bad deal. Not to mention, you can tank missions with 3 tanking mods, so you arent necessarily required to use bastion. Its activation is optional. Plus, if you dont normally move a whole lot on tq now, bastion + mjd will def make your runs equal if not better.
The base tq fit I compare bastion to is a bit different and I think this is why we are not on the same page:
gyro x4 TE x1
TC x2 tank x3 prop
800 IIs x4
burst II ambit I
again, assuming faction ammo, gyros, and TCs (before implants). At 40KM, this is approx 805 dps (4.2+71). If bastion is activated it becomes about 832 dps (4.8+74).... about a 3.4% increase (half of what you are getting) in dps, and again, after moving 4km that dmg difference will be more than made up for.
The next issue is freeing up a slot to run the mjd (not to mention that there are very few missions were the mjd a game changer):
* I cant 2 slot tank w/o bastion, and activating bastion lowers the overall dps for the time it is active due to lack of mobility. After the minute, it still needs to make up any distance it failed to cover while being stationary. You lose out on more than just a min of DPS when bastion is active, so it should be avoided when possible, which doesnt make dropping the 3rd tanking module a good idea if bastion isnt necessary.
* Alternatively, I could drop a tracking comp for the mjd, but that drops my normal dps to 731 at 40km out of bastion (731 -> 805 is over 10%), and 789 in bastion (789 -> 832 is ~5.4%). In short, no way am i going to drop the TC.
The summary being that the "buffs" to the hull were the MJD bonus and the bastion module.... but if i have to use either one, my dps goes down significantly. tq > sisi. If i continue to use the TQ fit, i still get hit by the hull nerfs.... Then i look over at the paladin's 850+ dps with scorch pulses and over 90KM optimal range BEFORE BASTION and think "WTF CCP you did that to the paladin and nerf the vargur?!?!?!" I call shenanigans |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 04:07:00 -
[7350] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: ... Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission) [Vargur, Bastion] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II ... Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II ...
snipped to save space.
I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,
= RF gyros = Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:
= Changing Collision II to Burst II = On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%. Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.
= More = SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)
drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to anyway.)
avoid using bastion to make use of mobility
I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:23:00 -
[7351] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: ... Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission) [Vargur, Bastion] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II ... Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II ...
snipped to save space. I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider, = RF gyros = Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see: = Changing Collision II to Burst II = On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%. Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission. = More = SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit) drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.) avoid using bastion to make use of mobility I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD. Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs
On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better.
As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type.
Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change)
The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 09:27:00 -
[7352] - Quote
Where's the 4th iteration that makes these ships non-GARBAGE outside of "wannabedread" mode?
And Kronos being bumped up to a level where it's worth flying?
Did you stop giving a damn? |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
638
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 09:42:00 -
[7353] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: ... Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission) [Vargur, Bastion] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II ... Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II ...
snipped to save space. I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider, = RF gyros = Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see: = Changing Collision II to Burst II = On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%. Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission. = More = SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit) drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.) avoid using bastion to make use of mobility I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD. Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better. As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type. Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change) The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery.
You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots?
Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing.
Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 09:54:00 -
[7354] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: ... Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission) [Vargur, Bastion] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II ... Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II ...
snipped to save space. I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider, = RF gyros = Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see: = Changing Collision II to Burst II = On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%. Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission. = More = SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit) drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.) avoid using bastion to make use of mobility I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD. Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better. As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type. Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change) The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery. You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots? Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing. Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).
3rd TC is still worth it.
And yes Vargur is absolutely horrid along with Kronos, a 100 ms+ slower than on live. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
638
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:01:00 -
[7355] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: ... Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission) [Vargur, Bastion] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Booster II ... Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II ...
snipped to save space. I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider, = RF gyros = Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see: = Changing Collision II to Burst II = On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%. Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission. = More = SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit) drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.) avoid using bastion to make use of mobility I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD. Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better. As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type. Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change) The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery. You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots? Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing. Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger). 3rd TC is still worth it. And yes Vargur is absolutely horrid along with Kronos, a 100 ms+ slower than on live.
Wellt he TC is worht because it has a better bonus than the Bastion.
In fact no sane vargur pilto will bother with using a bastion module. .. hard wil be to find sane pilots using a vargur after these changes. |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:24:00 -
[7356] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Wellt he TC is worth because it has a better bonus than the Bastion.
In fact no sane vargur pilto will bother with using a bastion module. .. hard wil be to find sane pilots using a vargur after these changes.
Have to agree - with the vargur its impossible to marry the painfully weak arty dps and its application with bastion. Why would you use it when your dps is applied so slowlly and so inconsistently (too much or a tiny bit too little, aaaaand wait .. and ... wait). Voila, they are on top of you, or out of range for decent application. Bastion is pointless, use an AB to maintain range.
Vargur gets nothing, indeed nerfed, its basically an expensive Maelstrom using Arty.
With autocannons, it will get used as before, but its now slower - nerfed into being another crap non minmater ship.
Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn
|

Kane Fenris
NWP
111
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 12:11:00 -
[7357] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote: Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn
its the curse of the tempest hull to suck.... |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
189
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:06:00 -
[7358] - Quote
Does anyone have the MJD skill at 5 and a marauder to put it on? If so, could you get on Sisi and tell me what your reactivation timer is? |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:22:00 -
[7359] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:Does anyone have the MJD skill at 5 and a marauder to put it on? If so, could you get on Sisi and tell me what your reactivation timer is?
reactivation time does not depend on the skill activation time does |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
189
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:57:00 -
[7360] - Quote
Ah, I didn't notice that. That would explain it then, lol. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:00:00 -
[7361] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Wellt he TC is worth because it has a better bonus than the Bastion.
In fact no sane vargur pilto will bother with using a bastion module. .. hard wil be to find sane pilots using a vargur after these changes.
Have to agree - with the vargur its impossible to marry the painfully weak arty dps and its application with bastion. Why would you use it when your dps is applied so slowlly and so inconsistently (too much or a tiny bit too little, aaaaand wait .. and ... wait). Voila, they are on top of you, or out of range for decent application. Bastion is pointless, use an AB to maintain range. Vargur gets nothing, indeed nerfed, its basically an expensive Maelstrom using Arty. With autocannons, it will get used as before, but its now slower - nerfed into being another crap non minmater ship. Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn
The thing is, I think you could perform fairly well with a AC Vargur if you fit it right.
In a mission with long range targets, you can fit MJD and jump to them, then bastion and light them up. If it's a mission with mostly close range targets, you can just fit an MWD to get to the gate, and bastion when in pocket.
Certain missions might require both, which is where the new mobile fitting structure will come in nicely.
Example - World's collide
Warp to mission, MJD towards 1st group.. Will probably put you within 40km. Drop mobile fitting structure and bastion up. While you're basting away, you can wait for the structure to anchor, refit MWD, and scoop structure to hold.
MWD back to gate and jump into next room...Bastion up and blast away as it's mostly close range. Drop bastion and MWD to gate.
Jump to last pocket Bastion and drop fitting structure. While you're blasting you can refit MJD and scoop structure.
This last part is assuming you want to clear the other funnel of the mission.
This same tactic can be used in several other missions. If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.
Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.
A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned. |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:23:00 -
[7362] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: ... [insane messing around inside mission] ...
If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.
Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.
A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned.
Yes - you are saying what everyone else is saying, the new META is sitting still. Its totally and utterly like nothing else in the game except ... Dreads ... can you tell me how boring a structure bash actually is?
My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge, closes to apply damage, orbits groups to mitigate damage. What you are saying is drive it like a bus .. jump, park, shoot, jump, park, shoot. Woohoo. Carebear missioners'R'us. And while parked - I will see those long range ships 'flee' into my low DPS zone.
"I sit still and apply damage, I tank heavily, I cannot move ... What am I?" Some might answer Paladin or Kronos or Golem or Vargur ... and some will answer a dread. But all will be saying the same kind of ship with the same bonuses in the same homogenous mix.
I can see why some like this, but the Nerf to the Vargur is a nail n the coffin of Minmatar gameplay - its a slug now, and its just plain rubbish. Missions are dull enough thanks.
God know what others are thinking of their respective dreads \h\h\h\h\h Marauders. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
590
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:26:00 -
[7363] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote: My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge...
Not anymore, better get used to it. 
At least not as well as before. |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
558
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 16:55:00 -
[7364] - Quote
Doed wrote:Where's the 4th iteration that makes these ships non-GARBAGE outside of "wannabedread" mode?
And Kronos being bumped up to a level where it's worth flying?
Did you stop giving a damn? I believe it was stated that further tweaking is expected after some TQ playtesting, meaning it's probably not earlier than Rubicon 1.1 or whatever. |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
189
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:11:00 -
[7365] - Quote
I really don't understand the complaints. You wanna chase **** down, use a mach. You wanna use a super tank, brick up and kill everything, use a Vargur. They're not supposed to overlap in their roles.
Also, Kronos does not suck and with bastion mode being immune to jams from Guristas, it's even better. Vargur isn't worse now either, it's better. It can finally fit 1200mm arties. I just ran The Blockade vs Serps and it did great. About to run a Guristas mission to see how it fairs, which should be good, too. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:18:00 -
[7366] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:I really don't understand the complaints.
I rest my case. |

m3talc0re X
Solar Revolutions Co.
189
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:25:00 -
[7367] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:m3talc0re X wrote:I really don't understand the complaints. I rest my case.
So you're saying you have no case?
I don't understand the complaints because I don't think they're warranted. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:34:00 -
[7368] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... [insane messing around inside mission] ...
If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.
Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.
A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned.
Yes - you are saying what everyone else is saying, the new META is sitting still. Its totally and utterly like nothing else in the game except ... Dreads ... can you tell me how boring a structure bash actually is? My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge, closes to apply damage, orbits groups to mitigate damage. What you are saying is drive it like a bus .. jump, park, shoot, jump, park, shoot. Woohoo. Carebear missioners'R'us. And while parked - I will see those long range ships 'flee' into my low DPS zone. "I sit still and apply damage, I tank heavily, I cannot move ... What am I?" Some might answer Paladin or Kronos or Golem or Vargur ... and some will answer a dread. But all will be saying the same kind of ship with the same bonuses in the same homogenous mix. I can see why some like this, but the Nerf to the Vargur is a nail n the coffin of Minmatar gameplay - its a slug now, and its just plain rubbish. Missions are dull enough thanks. God know what others are thinking of their respective dreads \h\h\h\h\h Marauders.
Which brings up some thoughts I had earlier in this thread.
Since missiles aren't effected by tracking/falloff is the main reason why golem performs well with bastion and MJD.
The rest of them don't have this advantage. The golem performs just as well at long range, as it does at close range.
While you're on the right track, I think there's a bit of imbalance in your proposal for the other 3. Here's my thought.
Golem - stays as is with bastion MJD. Perhaps the range bonus can be removed from stacking penalty, as this will help torps, while having no real effect on cruise.
Paladin - stationary with MJD. Bastion gives tank bonus and tracking bonus. Range isn't a problem for paladin.
Kronos - retains same mobility as without bastion, bastion gives web bonus, drone EHP and tracking bonus, retains old drone b/w and gains some hold on hull, gets bonus to armor EHP and resists. Sig is increased as penalty.
Vargur - bastion removes cap penalty from MWD. Increases shield EHP and resists. Slight damage buff. Sig radius is increased.
This is a better suggestion for a balance that works with the way the ships are generally used, fits the races, and each has a drawback. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:35:00 -
[7369] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:m3talc0re X wrote:I really don't understand the complaints. I rest my case. So you're saying you have no case? I don't understand the complaints because I don't think they're warranted. If nothing else, the 1200mm's could maybe use a bit faster rof.
for people who dont care about efficency those ships might seem fine ....
if you ever tried to do lvl 4's in a Max|h(isk(h)) style youd see the issues |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:49:00 -
[7370] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: Some players always mention isk/hr, but when they do, they're speaking in specific terms of completion times and they never factor comsumable(ammo/cap boosters/etc.etc.) and fitting costs into this.
just wanted to highlight that.... |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
129
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:52:00 -
[7371] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I doubt we will reach an agreement on the vargur, but seeing the above, I can understand why we disagree. Actually getting me convinced is easier than you think. Please read on.
Yes, you are right on the spot. This it the fitting I use both on TQ and on SiSi. Actually I'm thinking about dropping to 2 slot tank on SiSi but I'm not confident enough yet.
Regarding the rest of your analysis. Thanks for sharing and I think I'm going to give a try to the fit you have described, though probably not in nearest future...
A couple of things I'd like to comment.
First off, I agree my ship may be inadequate but still I have tested the same ship on both servers. Doing the same things the same way when it made sense and doing them differently when it didn't. So for all things considered, the only variables changed were the hulls, with their bonuses and new stuff. Okay, my flying style might made this performance difference favorable to new gear. But at least I tried to get some actual metrics.
Then let's assume your fit is optimal, I'm not going to question it. However one thing bugs me out: you know it's optimal because you have tested it and compared to alternatives. If that's so, what prevents you from sharing your test results? And if you didn't test, how do you know it's optimal?
By no means I assume I'm doing missions best way. Quite to the contrary, I think I still have lot to learn and I'm open to suggestions. What I need is to be shown that another method is better. No, not shown that given stat is higher or lower. I insist on reporting performance. I'm not satisfied with analysis that given ship or fitting is better than the other. I need to be shown how much better the performance is.
So getting to the point, the easiest way of changing my mind and attitude regarding new balance of marauders is to demonstrate what is performance difference between them. Mind you I don't require court-grade unbeatable, unrepealable evidence. Anecdotal report will do. Actually you can even make up the numbers, if you so desire (let's keep 'em within common sense, m'kay?), and you will win this discussion. Honest. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
129
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:03:00 -
[7372] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Vargur as in SISI will be[....] The paladin wil be [....] blasters wil be [....]
Meanwhile let me excerpt from some my posts not so long ago:
Quote: [....]on SiSi I tested[....] [....]results were[....] [....]performance is[....]
I give up on trying to change your convictions. Fortunately, since it's not a poll, I do not have to. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:10:00 -
[7373] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: Some players always mention isk/hr, but when they do, they're speaking in specific terms of completion times and they never factor comsumable(ammo/cap boosters/etc.etc.) and fitting costs into this.
just wanted to highlight that.... Indeed, in one of my reports I specifically took into account how much ammo (faction at that) I used and the value of it. Most missions are around 1-2mill in ammo. I personally don't use any other consumables and I haven't lost drones in forever. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:10:00 -
[7374] - Quote
I hate when a comment get lost due to another topic so I'm DP'ing this.
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Joe Risalo wrote: ... [insane messing around inside mission] ...
If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.
Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.
A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned.
Yes - you are saying what everyone else is saying, the new META is sitting still. Its totally and utterly like nothing else in the game except ... Dreads ... can you tell me how boring a structure bash actually is? My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge, closes to apply damage, orbits groups to mitigate damage. What you are saying is drive it like a bus .. jump, park, shoot, jump, park, shoot. Woohoo. Carebear missioners'R'us. And while parked - I will see those long range ships 'flee' into my low DPS zone. "I sit still and apply damage, I tank heavily, I cannot move ... What am I?" Some might answer Paladin or Kronos or Golem or Vargur ... and some will answer a dread. But all will be saying the same kind of ship with the same bonuses in the same homogenous mix. I can see why some like this, but the Nerf to the Vargur is a nail n the coffin of Minmatar gameplay - its a slug now, and its just plain rubbish. Missions are dull enough thanks. God know what others are thinking of their respective dreads \h\h\h\h\h Marauders.
Which brings up some thoughts I had earlier in this thread.
Since missiles aren't effected by tracking/falloff is the main reason why golem performs well with bastion and MJD.
The rest of them don't have this advantage. The golem performs just as well at long range, as it does at close range.
While you're on the right track, I think there's a bit of imbalance in your proposal for the other 3. Here's my thought.
Golem - stays as is with bastion MJD. Perhaps the range bonus can be removed from stacking penalty, as this will help torps, while having no real effect on cruise.
Paladin - stationary with MJD. Bastion gives tank bonus and tracking bonus. Range isn't a problem for paladin.
Kronos - retains same mobility as without bastion, bastion gives web bonus, drone EHP and tracking bonus, retains old drone b/w and gains some hold on hull, gets bonus to armor EHP and resists. Sig is increased as penalty.
Vargur - bastion removes cap penalty from MWD. Increases shield EHP and resists. Slight damage buff. Sig radius is increased.
This is a better suggestion for a balance that works with the way the ships are generally used, fits the races, and each has a drawback. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:25:00 -
[7375] - Quote
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkNC5KM1CqPkdDJueEc1cmxWWENvaHhTakhyMmViOUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html
I added isk/h colomn. Now a note on this number: The time I took as mission time was from warping INTO the mission and warping OUT OF the mission. This means I was IN WARP so bastion had already finished cycling if I was using it. The time getting to and from the mission would be the same for every ship you would use to run lv4 missions so you can directly compare this with TQ data if you want to be it a pirate BS or a marauder.
I have not ONCE gotten stuck on a gate because of bastion timer. Not a single time. This has to do with the fact that I cancel bastion when it is no longer needed or because of the new warp changes in Rubicon. The bastion timer impacting mission time was brought up earlier in this thread, after thorough testing it is a non-factor.
Also as you can see salvage/loot has a big impact on isk per hour and is the nature of marauders. Some missions are not worth the time to loot/salvage (drones).
I do find it interesting that no one has bothered to comment on my data. I guess when the data doesn't agree with you opinion it's easier to just ignore it. Ah well, I need to run AE again to see if I can do it better with the depo. I want to get scarlet again. So far that mission gave me insane numbers but I didn't record it in as much detail. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:33:00 -
[7376] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkNC5KM1CqPkdDJueEc1cmxWWENvaHhTakhyMmViOUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html
I added isk/h colomn. Now a note on this number: The time I took as mission time was from warping INTO the mission and warping OUT OF the mission. This means I was IN WARP so bastion had already finished cycling if I was using it. The time getting to and from the mission would be the same for every ship you would use to run lv4 missions so you can directly compare this with TQ data if you want to be it a pirate BS or a marauder.
I have not ONCE gotten stuck on a gate because of bastion timer. Not a single time. This has to do with the fact that I cancel bastion when it is no longer needed or because of the new warp changes in Rubicon. The bastion timer impacting mission time was brought up earlier in this thread, after thorough testing it is a non-factor.
Also as you can see salvage/loot has a big impact on isk per hour and is the nature of marauders. Some missions are not worth the time to loot/salvage (drones).
I do find it interesting that no one has bothered to comment on my data. I guess when the data doesn't agree with you opinion it's easier to just ignore it. Ah well, I need to run AE again to see if I can do it better with the depo. I want to get scarlet again. So far that mission gave me insane numbers but I didn't record it in as much detail.
I think the only issue with this layout is that it is not a direction comparison to anything.
It should be compared to bastion paladin vs Live paladin. Then do bastion vs nightmare/mach/bhal/vindi.
I think that's probably why you're not getting a lot of replies. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
471
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:01:00 -
[7377] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkNC5KM1CqPkdDJueEc1cmxWWENvaHhTakhyMmViOUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html
I added isk/h colomn. Now a note on this number: The time I took as mission time was from warping INTO the mission and warping OUT OF the mission. This means I was IN WARP so bastion had already finished cycling if I was using it. The time getting to and from the mission would be the same for every ship you would use to run lv4 missions so you can directly compare this with TQ data if you want to be it a pirate BS or a marauder.
I have not ONCE gotten stuck on a gate because of bastion timer. Not a single time. This has to do with the fact that I cancel bastion when it is no longer needed or because of the new warp changes in Rubicon. The bastion timer impacting mission time was brought up earlier in this thread, after thorough testing it is a non-factor.
Also as you can see salvage/loot has a big impact on isk per hour and is the nature of marauders. Some missions are not worth the time to loot/salvage (drones).
I do find it interesting that no one has bothered to comment on my data. I guess when the data doesn't agree with you opinion it's easier to just ignore it. Ah well, I need to run AE again to see if I can do it better with the depo. I want to get scarlet again. So far that mission gave me insane numbers but I didn't record it in as much detail.
I am guessing that times are with salvaging included because they are terrible,in say blockade you are stuck there 2x times and some change longer than needed and that is with ship that have range bonus and e-war immune,not to mention over tanked by default.
if you want to compare ships than you need to show comparison in combat performance only because salvaging is not marauder specific one can easily use noctis or simply not salvage at all and turn it in and get another blockade from another agent in same station and pull double mission revard and earn 2x lp than you in same amount of time and basically had better isk/h ratio than you.
I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong nor do I care but it doesn't make it right either.
Combat ships measured with combat performance...gizmos aside. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:25:00 -
[7378] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkNC5KM1CqPkdDJueEc1cmxWWENvaHhTakhyMmViOUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html
I added isk/h colomn. Now a note on this number: The time I took as mission time was from warping INTO the mission and warping OUT OF the mission. This means I was IN WARP so bastion had already finished cycling if I was using it. The time getting to and from the mission would be the same for every ship you would use to run lv4 missions so you can directly compare this with TQ data if you want to be it a pirate BS or a marauder.
I have not ONCE gotten stuck on a gate because of bastion timer. Not a single time. This has to do with the fact that I cancel bastion when it is no longer needed or because of the new warp changes in Rubicon. The bastion timer impacting mission time was brought up earlier in this thread, after thorough testing it is a non-factor.
Also as you can see salvage/loot has a big impact on isk per hour and is the nature of marauders. Some missions are not worth the time to loot/salvage (drones).
I do find it interesting that no one has bothered to comment on my data. I guess when the data doesn't agree with you opinion it's easier to just ignore it. Ah well, I need to run AE again to see if I can do it better with the depo. I want to get scarlet again. So far that mission gave me insane numbers but I didn't record it in as much detail. I am guessing that times are with salvaging included because they are terrible,in say blockade you are stuck there 2x times and some change longer than needed and that is with ship that have range bonus and e-war immune,not to mention over tanked by default. if you want to compare ships than you need to show comparison in combat performance only because salvaging is not marauder specific one can easily use noctis or simply not salvage at all and turn it in and get another blockade from another agent in same station and pull double mission revard and earn 2x lp than you in same amount of time and basically had better isk/h ratio than you. I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong nor do I care but it doesn't make it right either. Combat ships measured with combat performance...gizmos aside. Yes all times are full room clear. I do not blitz missions nor do I use LP at all. I have stockpiles of LP that I haven't used. The problem I see with blitzing missions is the travel time (Especially with the Rubicon warp changes) and the extensive work that needs to go into converting LP into Isk. That is time no one ever factors into their little isk/h values when it's based on LP. If you can LP and can get better isk/h than what I'm getting all the more power to you. What isk/lp conversion do you get? I can plug those numbers into the spreadsheet to get a more accurate representation of isk/h.
And bastion is not a gizmo, at least it's a gizmo just as much as MWD is, or Tracking comps or MJD or almost any module. It is a TOOL to be used or NOT used as the situation calls for it It doesn't take anything away from the hull to fit it (unlike in fact MWD) the hull buffs/nerfs do not count because they would be there regardless if bastion was fitted or not.
The way I see it loot has at the very least their scrap mineral value, some have more. Same with salvage, they have an intrinsic value that cna be leasiles by simply selling them at a trade hub. LP however requires spreadsheets, market research, LP store research etc etc and all the effort in buy the tags, the items etc.
Also, the salvage happens WHILE I shoot things. For completion time with a pirate BS and noctis you have to factor in reship time and then you will start falling far behind (I might test some pirate BS/noctis shenanigans on sisi as well)
Unless you can give me solid numbers (Like I did) I can unfortunately not believe you when you say you will do better isk/h.
And I would love to see how you can just get blockade whenever you want to or even get it from two agents in the same sistem at the same time whenever you want to. I can accept blitzing the bad missions but that is still time lost. By making the most out of the good missions I am less effected by bad missions and dont have to turn down as many missions. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:28:00 -
[7379] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Yes a;; times are full room clear. I do not blitz missions nor do I use LP at all. I have stockpiles of LP that I haven't used.
sry this is stupid lp are a very major part of isk/h income esp. when max skilled....
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:34:00 -
[7380] - Quote
I still don't understand why CCP couldn't give marauders noctis tractor range?
I mean, you can keep their velocity lower, and noctis is dedicated to tractor/salvage.
So the noctis will still be significantly faster over, while Marauders would still be able to salvage on the go, expecially when you factor their increased intended range capabilities with bastion. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:46:00 -
[7381] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Yes a;; times are full room clear. I do not blitz missions nor do I use LP at all. I have stockpiles of LP that I haven't used.
sry this is stupid lp are a very major part of isk/h income esp. when max skilled.... Excelent, do you want to buy my LP from me? I'll sell it for 1500/lp |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 19:57:00 -
[7382] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Yes a;; times are full room clear. I do not blitz missions nor do I use LP at all. I have stockpiles of LP that I haven't used.
sry this is stupid lp are a very major part of isk/h income esp. when max skilled.... Excelent, do you want to buy my LP from me? I'll sell it for 1500/lp
if you try to imply you cant transfer lp to isk your wrong...
buy items and sell em... |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:03:00 -
[7383] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Yes a;; times are full room clear. I do not blitz missions nor do I use LP at all. I have stockpiles of LP that I haven't used.
sry this is stupid lp are a very major part of isk/h income esp. when max skilled.... Excelent, do you want to buy my LP from me? I'll sell it for 1500/lp if you try to imply you cant transfer lp to isk your wrong... buy items and sell em... People do it all the time. You tell me what to buy form the LP store, I contract them to you for the agreed price, bam lp sold.
What do you get for your LP anyways? |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
471
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:07:00 -
[7384] - Quote
I didn't said gizmo for bastion I said it for salvage
in case you didn't notice ....
You don't translate to same as me
And some does not translate to everybody
what you do and can't do or is hard is your perspective,and it doesn't translate to everybody else,I can comment on you salvage operations because that to is situational and mission specific ie gizmo....
If you want comparison do combat comparison in between marauders and or rest of high end ships in one thing that all do..shooting stuff.
If you did salvage while you shoot what exactly did you do in mission for over half and hour I don't know. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
37
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:37:00 -
[7385] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:I really don't understand the complaints. You wanna chase **** down, use a mach. You wanna use a super tank, brick up and kill everything, use a Vargur. They're not supposed to overlap in their roles.
Also, Kronos does not suck and with bastion mode being immune to jams from Guristas, it's even better. Vargur isn't worse now either, it's better. It can finally fit 1200mm arties. I just ran The Blockade vs Serps and it did great. About to run a Guristas mission to see how it fairs, which should be good, too.
This is what I'm using on Sisi atm: [Vargur, 1200mm Arties copy 1 copy 1] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Capacitor Flux Coil II
Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Field II Kinetic Deflection Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
That my friend is one of the most terrible vargurs i have ever seen. You must be a troll.
low dps. no prop mod. extreme overtanked. what are you even doing with cruisers orbiting you at 5000km. oh man, i do not know if to laugh or to cry. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:47:00 -
[7386] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:I didn't said gizmo for bastion I said it for salvage
in case you didn't notice ....
You don't translate to same as me
And some does not translate to everybody
what you do and can't do or is hard is your perspective,and it doesn't translate to everybody else,I can comment on you salvage operations because that to is situational and mission specific ie gizmo....
If you want comparison do combat comparison in between marauders and or rest of high end ships in one thing that all do..shooting stuff.
If you did salvage while you shoot what exactly did you do in mission for over half and hour I don't know. Yea theres definitely some translation problems here. You're using the wrong words for stuff. It's not gizmo, I think you meant gimmick though it isn't a gimmick for the marauder since that is usually the primary way it gets isk, through loot and salvage. not taking that into account would be like not taking LP into account for mission blitzers.
Understand this very clearly: Marauders are not, and never will be Pirate BS. They do not work the same, they do not run missions the same, they do not make isk the same way.
The only thing really is if they make roughly the same amount of isk per hour and with bastion + salvage + MJD they make more than I can currently on TQ. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
951
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 20:48:00 -
[7387] - Quote
There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull.
Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
Cruises already go pretty much out to hard-coded lock range limit, so it's not like anything will change there. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 21:30:00 -
[7388] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:m3talc0re X wrote:I really don't understand the complaints. You wanna chase **** down, use a mach. You wanna use a super tank, brick up and kill everything, use a Vargur. They're not supposed to overlap in their roles.
Also, Kronos does not suck and with bastion mode being immune to jams from Guristas, it's even better. Vargur isn't worse now either, it's better. It can finally fit 1200mm arties. I just ran The Blockade vs Serps and it did great. About to run a Guristas mission to see how it fairs, which should be good, too.
This is what I'm using on Sisi atm: [Vargur, 1200mm Arties copy 1 copy 1] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Capacitor Flux Coil II
Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Field II Kinetic Deflection Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II That my friend is one of the most terrible vargurs i have ever seen. You must be a troll. low dps. no prop mod. extreme overtanked. what are you even doing with cruisers orbiting you at 5000km. oh man, i do not know if to laugh or to cry.
Uhh, he's in a Marauder... Overtanking is what a marauder does now...
However, I have my own thoughts on why this isn't that good of a fit.
1) With bastion and how awesomely it does for reps, you can either pulse tank, or perma run a medium booster
2) You have way too much cap focus on that ship. Truthfully, you shouldn't even need one, unless it's a cap booster in a spare mid.
3) Vargur has natively high resists. You can get away with one invuln II.
4) The shield boost amp is almost useless with Bastion, so drop it.
5) Drop the Cap flux for your low. If you feel you need more tank, put a DCU II.
6) In the rigs, fit dps rigs, or some other type of rig.. No need for the cap.
7) Fit an MJD in one of your free mids. THIS will help counter close range orbitting targets.
8) If you're running short on cpu/pg due to MJD or whatever, you can fit it in your rigs.
I'm sure there are some more points i can mention, but i'm not sure what atm. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 22:02:00 -
[7389] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Uhh, he's in a Marauder... Overtanking is what a marauder does now...
However, I have my own thoughts on why this isn't that good of a fit.
1) With bastion and how awesomely it does for reps, you can either pulse tank, or perma run a medium booster
2) You have way too much cap focus on that ship. Truthfully, you shouldn't even need one, unless it's a cap booster in a spare mid.
3) Vargur has natively high resists. You can get away with one invuln II.
4) The shield boost amp is almost useless with Bastion, so drop it.
5) Drop the Cap flux for your low. If you feel you need more tank, put a DCU II.
6) In the rigs, fit dps rigs, or some other type of rig.. No need for the cap.
7) Fit an MJD in one of your free mids. THIS will help counter close range orbitting targets.
8) If you're running short on cpu/pg due to MJD or whatever, you can fit it in your rigs.
I'm sure there are some more points i can mention, but i'm not sure what atm.
1-4) One Invul, one booster 5+7) if mjd, why a dcu 6) ROF rigs 8) do you know the new vargur? this fit, even with dual prop, has so much free cpu and pg.
In total: His fitting bring 600dps at 30km. If you jump away with mjd and you fight in falloff you have even less. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 22:15:00 -
[7390] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: People do it all the time. You tell me what to buy form the LP store, I contract them to you for the agreed price, bam lp sold.
What do you get for your LP anyways?
Although on the other hand discussing Mission blitzing/LP farming has zero place in a marauder rebalanced thread. If you lp farm then you are sure as hell not running a marauder. A Pirate BS is far better at it, as it should be.
its about beeing efficient.
if a mission is more worth "blitzed" than not it is too in a marauder.
some missions are best farmed if you shoot and salvage only the valuable bs and blitz the rest. this is where marauders shine if you shoot all the things and salvage all the thing youd better have an alt with a noctis .
so theres why it concerns marauders.
ps.: what i get depends what its offerd, what sells best and what has the best lp to isk ratio.... so no simple answer here
if somebody has an awnser to tractorunit pullable? that would be great |
|

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
471
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 22:46:00 -
[7391] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:I didn't said gizmo for bastion I said it for salvage
in case you didn't notice ....
You don't translate to same as me
And some does not translate to everybody
what you do and can't do or is hard is your perspective,and it doesn't translate to everybody else,I can comment on you salvage operations because that to is situational and mission specific ie gizmo....
If you want comparison do combat comparison in between marauders and or rest of high end ships in one thing that all do..shooting stuff.
If you did salvage while you shoot what exactly did you do in mission for over half and hour I don't know. Yea theres definitely some translation problems here. You're using the wrong words for stuff. It's not gizmo, I think you meant gimmick though it isn't a gimmick for the marauder since that is usually the primary way it gets isk, through loot and salvage. not taking that into account would be like not taking LP into account for mission blitzers. Understand this very clearly: Marauders are not, and never will be Pirate BS. They do not work the same, they do not run missions the same, they do not make isk the same way. The only thing really is if they make roughly the same amount of isk per hour and with bastion + salvage + MJD they make more than I can currently on TQ.
We'll I definitely don't think of salvaging as empty trick or useless endeavor but saying it is primary way earning isk is silly.
Same as pirate and other high end ships primary way of them earning isk is shooting stuff,it is rather simple if you bonuses are 90% dmg oriented it is usually good idea to shoot stuff.
Now that is not to say you can't fit salvagers on non bonuses hull to salvage you can and it is great you do but if price for that is staying more than twice amount you need to complete mission...well it might not be primary way of making isk isn't it.
No need to compare performance to any other ship you your self can be on even grounds in Isk/h if you know what are you doing,and let's not forget while another agent might not hit you with same mission it sure as he'll won't hit you with another blockade.
More to the point if it so important part of marauders I am sure CCP will not shaft tractor range and add salvage boost..right.
It is so un fair that CCP nerfed dose ships for so long because they could fit salvagers in that high slots and not massive rr/neut/bombs.
Also in the realm of "other things than missions"....I know eve haz those too...ppl are using marauders to roll billions without fitting single salvager!!!! Crazy!! Il notify them that they are doing it wrong and send them back to l4 running Aldo after patch when these ships turning into glorified diapers maybe they will have to.
One last thing whole this thread is they being to similar to pirate ships almost same...tracking boost there instead of tank boost here etc...so your marauders are not same as pirate ships will have to wait after rubicon hits..soon. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 23:01:00 -
[7392] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:I didn't said gizmo for bastion I said it for salvage
in case you didn't notice ....
You don't translate to same as me
And some does not translate to everybody
what you do and can't do or is hard is your perspective,and it doesn't translate to everybody else,I can comment on you salvage operations because that to is situational and mission specific ie gizmo....
If you want comparison do combat comparison in between marauders and or rest of high end ships in one thing that all do..shooting stuff.
If you did salvage while you shoot what exactly did you do in mission for over half and hour I don't know. Yea theres definitely some translation problems here. You're using the wrong words for stuff. It's not gizmo, I think you meant gimmick though it isn't a gimmick for the marauder since that is usually the primary way it gets isk, through loot and salvage. not taking that into account would be like not taking LP into account for mission blitzers. Understand this very clearly: Marauders are not, and never will be Pirate BS. They do not work the same, they do not run missions the same, they do not make isk the same way. The only thing really is if they make roughly the same amount of isk per hour and with bastion + salvage + MJD they make more than I can currently on TQ. We'll I definitely don't think of salvaging as empty trick or useless endeavor but saying it is primary way earning isk is silly. Same as pirate and other high end ships primary way of them earning isk is shooting stuff,it is rather simple if you bonuses are 90% dmg oriented it is usually good idea to shoot stuff. Now that is not to say you can't fit salvagers on non bonuses hull to salvage you can and it is great you do but if price for that is staying more than twice amount you need to complete mission...well it might not be primary way of making isk isn't it. No need to compare performance to any other ship you your self can be on even grounds in Isk/h if you know what are you doing,and let's not forget while another agent might not hit you with same mission it sure as he'll won't hit you with another blockade. More to the point if it so important part of marauders I am sure CCP will not shaft tractor range and add salvage boost..right. It is so un fair that CCP nerfed dose ships for so long because they could fit salvagers in that high slots and not massive rr/neut/bombs. Also in the realm of "other things than missions"....I know eve haz those too...ppl are using marauders to roll billions without fitting single salvager!!!! Crazy!! Il notify them that they are doing it wrong and send them back to l4 running Aldo after patch when these ships turning into glorified diapers maybe they will have to. One last thing whole this thread is they being to similar to pirate ships almost same...tracking boost there instead of tank boost here etc...so your marauders are not same as pirate ships will have to wait after rubicon hits..soon.
Like I've mentioned before.
When salvaging lvl 4 missions, I can earn as much, if not more, from loot and salvage than I can from bounties and mission payout/bonus. Now, in a noctis, I can do this in 1/4 the time it takes to actually run the mission. That said, a player with low skills will rely heavily on the salvage/loot a a means of earning.
Also, many low skill corp members follow corp fleets and rely solely on salvage/loot as their PRIMARY means of isk. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
434
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 23:05:00 -
[7393] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull. Maybe we can nerf the Paladin as well then everyone will be unhappy with Marauders...  |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 23:14:00 -
[7394] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: People do it all the time. You tell me what to buy form the LP store, I contract them to you for the agreed price, bam lp sold.
What do you get for your LP anyways?
Although on the other hand discussing Mission blitzing/LP farming has zero place in a marauder rebalanced thread. If you lp farm then you are sure as hell not running a marauder. A Pirate BS is far better at it, as it should be.
its about beeing efficient. if a mission is more worth "blitzed" than not it is too in a marauder. some missions are best farmed if you shoot and salvage only the valuable bs and blitz the rest. this is where marauders shine if you shoot all the things and salvage all the thing youd better have an alt with a noctis . so theres why it concerns marauders. ps.: what i get depends what its offerd, what sells best and what has the best lp to isk ratio.... so no simple answer here if somebody has an awnser to tractorunit pullable? that would be great
So what you are saying is that LP income is variable too? Just like salvage and loot?
Interesting. |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
471
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 23:38:00 -
[7395] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull. Maybe we can nerf the Paladin as well then everyone will be unhappy with Marauders... 
Ha ha like |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 23:42:00 -
[7396] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: So what you are saying is that LP income is variable too? Just like salvage and loot?
Interesting.
Also on many missions in my DATA salvage/loot accounts for well over half my income for that mission. You will also note that in my data I did not bother salvaging the one mission (and will only blitz drone missions from now on eww) so yeas there is merit to that but so many missions have so much isk in the form of salvage and loot and the best part is I skip the whole traveling bit that is part of blitzing missions. Basically say you have an hour right. Travel time is say 5 min per mission. If you can do 4 missions in that hour and I only do 2 you wasted 20min on travel and I only spent 10min on travel. I spent more time making money you spent more time traveling around not making money.
At least thats my theory.
id rather end that discussion cause its off topic but you leave me no choice here...
you did understand that i uses the " " with purpose on "blitz"
if i run a mission where i get bs spawns but the gate is unlocked and i kill salvage and loot the bs but leave the frigs (unless i have time to shoot them cause im not finished looting and salvageing the bs) which yields a better lp/h while takeing the greatest part of bounties loot and salvage will get better isk/h than shooting and salvageing all the stuff in a marauder? (or shooting all and returning to salvage all on the same account)
and leaving small stuff may even make up for travel time if you have 2 accounts because the isk/h is inhomogeneous distributed over ships. a minute spend killing frigs yields less then a minute send killing bs. (thats true for bounties loot and salvage!) minimizing mission time increases value of lp for the mission (if you earn 8000lp in 30 min the lp reward is better than if you spend 45 doing so)
i cant make it clearer than that if you dont understand you cant just fly every mission the same and ignore lp in general i cant help any further |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 02:05:00 -
[7397] - Quote
quick summary, my general process goes something like: EFT crunch -> live testing -> re-examine via ETF
hmskrecik wrote: ... what prevents you from sharing your [live] test results?
added the word "live" for context
The main reason is that it is harder to prove: * I cant ensure the environments are similar between servers (warp speed changes, spawn locations, warpin locationd, etc) * The tests require different roles, I cant prove that my performance was equally up to par in both roles. ppl will believe what they want to believe. ppl who support bastion staying the same can say I just didnt use bastion correctly, or challenge me with a faster clear time that never actually occurred. * I cant run enough tests to get a decent average to mitigate variable influence * On the other hand, I can very easily prove that like: ~4KM of movement renders bastion projection obsolete. * The numbers are difficult properly display their significance properly. If I say: "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] increase" the thread goes crazy because the number is concrete. If CCP says "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] decrease" the thread goes crazy b/c the number is concrete. If I say: "Ship A completion: 10 mins, ship B completion: 9 mins" no one cares If I say: "Ship A completion: 20 mins, ship B completion: 18 mins" no one cares For all anyone knows it could be variables I cant control. In all of these circumstances (save a few select stats), the difference is 10%.
hmskrecik wrote: So getting to the point, the easiest way of changing my mind and attitude regarding new balance of marauders is to demonstrate what is performance difference between them. Mind you I don't require court-grade unbeatable, unrepealable evidence. Anecdotal report will do. Actually you can even make up the numbers, if you so desire (let's keep 'em within common sense, m'kay?), and you will win this discussion. Honest.
As indicated above, I wont do that. With the randomness and uncontrolled variables of this game it is very difficult to prove X difference in completion time was directly attributed to factor Y, esp when there are not solid averages to draw from. We are probably (before additional warp ~time on gates, including the use of bastion vs non bastion, not factoring heavy ewar missions) within 5% - 15% differences in missions completion times ( 3 - 9 mins every hour).
Things I can prove: * Mobile > Bastion's projection * Dual prop > single MJD + 3rd TC * Bastion needed for dual prop * The rebalance is occuring b/c of power creep * Marauders were promised the ability to project dmg better than pirates * At various AC ranges, benefits of damage at range via bastion < Machariel's turret DPS lead (not to mention the further you get out the less tracking matters) (on realistic loadouts mach can lead til around 50KM, and Vargur gains ~13dps over the mach by around 70KM.. This is before taking the mach's drone advantage into account) * marauders fall victim to power creep due to looting structures in pve |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 07:47:00 -
[7398] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:quick summary, my general process goes something like: EFT crunch -> live testing -> re-examine via ETF hmskrecik wrote: ... what prevents you from sharing your [live] test results?
added the word "live" for contextThe main reason is that it is harder to prove: * I cant ensure the environments are similar between servers (warp speed changes, spawn locations, warpin locationd, etc) * The tests require different roles, I cant prove that my performance was equally up to par in both roles. ppl will believe what they want to believe. ppl who support bastion staying the same can say I just didnt use bastion correctly, or challenge me with a faster clear time that never actually occurred. * I cant run enough tests to get a decent average to mitigate variable influence * On the other hand, I can very easily prove that like: ~4KM of movement renders bastion projection obsolete. * The numbers are difficult properly display their significance properly. If I say: "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] increase" the thread goes crazy because the number is concrete. If CCP says "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] decrease" the thread goes crazy b/c the number is concrete. If I say: "Ship A completion: 10 mins, ship B completion: 9 mins" no one cares If I say: "Ship A completion: 20 mins, ship B completion: 18 mins" no one cares For all anyone knows it could be variables I cant control. In all of these circumstances (save a few select stats), the difference is 10%. hmskrecik wrote: So getting to the point, the easiest way of changing my mind and attitude regarding new balance of marauders is to demonstrate what is performance difference between them. Mind you I don't require court-grade unbeatable, unrepealable evidence. Anecdotal report will do. Actually you can even make up the numbers, if you so desire (let's keep 'em within common sense, m'kay?), and you will win this discussion. Honest.
As indicated above, I wont do that. With the randomness and uncontrolled variables of this game it is very difficult to prove X difference in completion time was directly attributed to factor Y, esp when there are not solid averages to draw from. We are probably (before additional warp ~time on gates, including the use of bastion vs non bastion, not factoring heavy ewar missions) within 5% - 15% differences in missions completion times ( 3 - 9 mins every hour). Things I can prove: * Mobile > Bastion's projection * Dual prop > single MJD + 3rd TC * Bastion needed for dual prop * The rebalance is occuring b/c of power creep * Marauders were promised the ability to project dmg better than pirates * At various AC ranges, benefits of damage at range via bastion < Machariel's turret DPS lead (not to mention the further you get out the less tracking matters) (on realistic loadouts mach can lead til around 50KM, and Vargur gains ~13dps over the mach by around 70KM.. This is before taking the mach's drone advantage into account) * marauders fall victim to power creep due to looting structures in pve Ok so the biggest difference between TQ and rubicon Vargur is speed. I've seen 100m/s thrown out as the difference while running a MWD. The other number I saw was 4km before the TQ vargur catches up with damage projection? Now what I don't know is based on what falloff that is? Is that with JUST a single extra TC? is it with 2 or three TCs? Is it with two ambits or one? or just a t1 ambit? How many TEs? What Falloff is that 4km based on exactly?
Regardless according to those numbers it's 40 seconds (100m/s difference to make up 4km) before the damage equalises between the two. That's 40km give or take at mwd speeds right?
Doesn't seem as world changing as people make it out is all I'm saying. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
649
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 09:55:00 -
[7399] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:quick summary, my general process goes something like: EFT crunch -> live testing -> re-examine via ETF hmskrecik wrote: ... what prevents you from sharing your [live] test results?
added the word "live" for contextThe main reason is that it is harder to prove: * I cant ensure the environments are similar between servers (warp speed changes, spawn locations, warpin locationd, etc) * The tests require different roles, I cant prove that my performance was equally up to par in both roles. ppl will believe what they want to believe. ppl who support bastion staying the same can say I just didnt use bastion correctly, or challenge me with a faster clear time that never actually occurred. * I cant run enough tests to get a decent average to mitigate variable influence * On the other hand, I can very easily prove that like: ~4KM of movement renders bastion projection obsolete. * The numbers are difficult properly display their significance properly. If I say: "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] increase" the thread goes crazy because the number is concrete. If CCP says "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] decrease" the thread goes crazy b/c the number is concrete. If I say: "Ship A completion: 10 mins, ship B completion: 9 mins" no one cares If I say: "Ship A completion: 20 mins, ship B completion: 18 mins" no one cares For all anyone knows it could be variables I cant control. In all of these circumstances (save a few select stats), the difference is 10%. hmskrecik wrote: So getting to the point, the easiest way of changing my mind and attitude regarding new balance of marauders is to demonstrate what is performance difference between them. Mind you I don't require court-grade unbeatable, unrepealable evidence. Anecdotal report will do. Actually you can even make up the numbers, if you so desire (let's keep 'em within common sense, m'kay?), and you will win this discussion. Honest.
As indicated above, I wont do that. With the randomness and uncontrolled variables of this game it is very difficult to prove X difference in completion time was directly attributed to factor Y, esp when there are not solid averages to draw from. We are probably (before additional warp ~time on gates, including the use of bastion vs non bastion, not factoring heavy ewar missions) within 5% - 15% differences in missions completion times ( 3 - 9 mins every hour). Things I can prove: * Mobile > Bastion's projection * Dual prop > single MJD + 3rd TC * Bastion needed for dual prop * The rebalance is occuring b/c of power creep * Marauders were promised the ability to project dmg better than pirates * At various AC ranges, benefits of damage at range via bastion < Machariel's turret DPS lead (not to mention the further you get out the less tracking matters) (on realistic loadouts mach can lead til around 50KM, and Vargur gains ~13dps over the mach by around 70KM.. This is before taking the mach's drone advantage into account) * marauders fall victim to power creep due to looting structures in pve Ok so the biggest difference between TQ and rubicon Vargur is speed. I've seen 100m/s thrown out as the difference while running a MWD. The other number I saw was 4km before the TQ vargur catches up with damage projection? Now what I don't know is based on what falloff that is? Is that with JUST a single extra TC? is it with 2 or three TCs? Is it with two ambits or one? or just a t1 ambit? How many TEs? What Falloff is that 4km based on exactly? Regardless according to those numbers it's 40 seconds (100m/s difference to make up 4km) before the damage equalises between the two. That's 40km give or take at mwd speeds right? Doesn't seem as world changing as people make it out is all I'm saying.
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Its a simple matter.. anyone keeping a vargur after this NERF patch is DUMB or cannot fly a Paladin.
If bastion gave 2 times the falloff bonus (as ALL range bonus do, because we arelady prooved in the past iwth MATH the equivalence between range and 2x falloff bonuses). THEN vargur might be still usable.
But so much whining (unfairly mostly) over minmatar last year made CCP over nerf minmatar as much as they could.
Being mobile with AC is far superior to get a massive boost in tank... over a tank that can already shrug the hardest L4 dps.. and a pathetic minimal increase in falloff.
For god's sake CCP, give us correct falloff bonus on bastion, OR give it back 15ms of speed... andyou can even remove the bastion from the vargur, will not make a difference.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 10:26:00 -
[7400] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get?
Powercreep.
I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. |
|

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 11:03:00 -
[7401] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off.
I should reiterate for clarity. It difference wasn't simply speed, it was the difference between typical tq, and a bastion sisi fit. This wasn't a comparison between sisi running the same strategy as tq, I don't have numbers for that, but if those numbers are correct, bastion should be avoided on the vargur when possible.
I can prove that the vargur did not get the projection it was promised, and the projection it received is pointless. According to the goals listed in the rebalance, the vargur is supposed to be able to project dmg better than the mach, which hasn't occurred. Instead, the offense gap has been widened. A major point of the rebalance was to make the ship more appealing. Less dps, less mobility, poor RR compatibility, the same terrible sensor strength, and various bastion penalties does not accomplish this.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 11:35:00 -
[7402] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. I should reiterate for clarity. It difference wasn't simply speed, it was the difference between typical tq, and a bastion sisi fit. This wasn't a comparison between sisi running the same strategy as tq, I don't have numbers for that, but if those numbers are correct, bastion should be avoided on the vargur when possible. I can prove that the vargur did not get the projection it was promised, and the projection it received is pointless. According to the goals listed in the rebalance, the vargur is supposed to be able to project dmg better than the mach, which hasn't occurred. Instead, the offense gap has been widened. A major point of the rebalance was to make the ship more appealing. Less dps, less mobility, poor RR compatibility, the same terrible sensor strength, and various bastion penalties does not accomplish this. Actually you are lying about the sensor strength. Base sensor strength on the Vargur on TQ is 85mm and on sisi it's 145mm.
They almost doubled it. Add that to the list of huge boosts the hull got. And it does make a HUGE difference in killing frigs before they can get in range and if you so wish makes any sebos you fit all the more effective. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
649
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 12:23:00 -
[7403] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off.
I dont think you get it.. Vargur got zero buffs. BAStion is NEGATIVE on it . The MJD thing is cool, but is INFERIOR to old vargur speedy movment when you run L4 to make real isk real fast.
I repeat.. vargur got ZERO buffs!! Using bastion mode is detrimental to anyoen that knew how to use the ship. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
649
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 12:24:00 -
[7404] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. I should reiterate for clarity. It difference wasn't simply speed, it was the difference between typical tq, and a bastion sisi fit. This wasn't a comparison between sisi running the same strategy as tq, I don't have numbers for that, but if those numbers are correct, bastion should be avoided on the vargur when possible. I can prove that the vargur did not get the projection it was promised, and the projection it received is pointless. According to the goals listed in the rebalance, the vargur is supposed to be able to project dmg better than the mach, which hasn't occurred. Instead, the offense gap has been widened. A major point of the rebalance was to make the ship more appealing. Less dps, less mobility, poor RR compatibility, the same terrible sensor strength, and various bastion penalties does not accomplish this. Actually you are lying about the sensor strength. Base sensor strength on the Vargur on TQ is 85mm and on sisi it's 145mm. They almost doubled it. Add that to the list of huge boosts the hull got. And it does make a HUGE difference in killing frigs before they can get in range and if you so wish makes any sebos you fit all the more effective.
This is can resolution.. nto sensor strenght. Really if you do not know that.. how can we take your posts as serious? |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 12:35:00 -
[7405] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. I should reiterate for clarity. It difference wasn't simply speed, it was the difference between typical tq, and a bastion sisi fit. This wasn't a comparison between sisi running the same strategy as tq, I don't have numbers for that, but if those numbers are correct, bastion should be avoided on the vargur when possible. I can prove that the vargur did not get the projection it was promised, and the projection it received is pointless. According to the goals listed in the rebalance, the vargur is supposed to be able to project dmg better than the mach, which hasn't occurred. Instead, the offense gap has been widened. A major point of the rebalance was to make the ship more appealing. Less dps, less mobility, poor RR compatibility, the same terrible sensor strength, and various bastion penalties does not accomplish this. Actually you are lying about the sensor strength. Base sensor strength on the Vargur on TQ is 85mm and on sisi it's 145mm. They almost doubled it. Add that to the list of huge boosts the hull got. And it does make a HUGE difference in killing frigs before they can get in range and if you so wish makes any sebos you fit all the more effective. This is can resolution.. nto sensor strenght. Really if you do not know that.. how can we take your posts as serious? So it is, I was thinking about scan res since well, sensor strength means nothing in lv4s with bastion now, my apologies.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 12:47:00 -
[7406] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Actually you are lying about the sensor strength. Base sensor strength on the Vargur on TQ is 85mm and on sisi it's 145mm.
They almost doubled it. Add that to the list of huge boosts the hull got. And it does make a HUGE difference in killing frigs before they can get in range and if you so wish makes any sebos you fit all the more effective.
Yeah you are right with the increase in SCAN RESOLUTION, BUT i can't remember a single mission where i couldn't sniper the frigs with ACs before they reached me. There are indeed some missions where frigs are already in close proximity when you enter the grid, but there your increased scan resolution helps you nothing at all.
I have no idea how to fly my varg after patch. I though i have a fitting after testing 12 missions on sissi with an ac fit, but right now the fittings are so contradictory.
Small tank/bastion -> a lot of application mods, which inside of bastion mode can't be used with full potential.
Every km you move towards npcs brings you more applied damage then any increase in fall-off through bastion. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 12:53:00 -
[7407] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. I dont think you get it.. Vargur got zero buffs. BAStion is NEGATIVE on it . The MJD thing is cool, but is INFERIOR to old vargur speedy movment when you run L4 to make real isk real fast. I repeat.. vargur got ZERO buffs!! Using bastion mode is detrimental to anyoen that knew how to use the ship. Zero buffs you say? Surely you must be mistaken?
Well if you insist - Reduced mass - Improved inertia modifier (I think) - Improved shield capacity - Improved capacitor capacity - Improved targeting range - Improved Scan res - Improved sig radius - Extra high slot - Almost double PG - Decreased MJD activation time
Now I might be crazy but those seem like buffs to me? Might need a 3rd party to corroborate. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:02:00 -
[7408] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off.
I agree, that the Vargur is probably not getting worse (or at least that is how I feel at the moment). However
1. The tachyon Paladin gets more gun damage, range, tank and EW immunity. (power creep 1) 2. All ships can use the new tractoring structure, so relative to the marauders every single ship in the game will get boosted. (power creep 2)
Edit:
Anize Oramara wrote: Well if you insist - Reduced mass - Improved inertia modifier (I think) - Improved shield capacity - Improved capacitor capacity - Improved targeting range - Improved Scan res - Improved sig radius - Extra high slot - Almost double PG - Decreased MJD activation time
This is all great, but hardly any of these help you get the missions done faster. E.g. decreased MJD activation time is great - I probably have 1 mission where it would make a difference. Almost double PG only helps to fit MWD and MJD, otherwise useless, shield capacity does nothing for me, etc
Also Paladin gets most of these and a lot more that actually matters. |

Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
78
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:32:00 -
[7409] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Dav Varan wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:theres a whole thread about it: [Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchersnow i hear you saying: "but theres nothing about the Golem !!!!!11111" right but let me ask you a question: what would make the golem not op haveing bonuses applied that other bs have? I don't know what your saying there. Making RHML bonused would not make the golem op in the same way that bonusing Dual 250mm Rails won't make a kronos op. It's just a choice you make when doing your fittings. Better v big stuff or better v fast stuff. The RHML is to Cruise launchers what the Dual 250 is to 425mm Its just the weaker launcher thats easier to fit and is better at hitting fast stuff at the expense of dps. Thats why it needs to have its bonuses otherwise useless. im saying if you seriously think having bonuses apply other than those who affect the number of effective launchers (missile velocity is debateable though), wont break the game ballance your insane or stupid you may choose which. if you seriously think thos bonuses should apply plz post in the RHML thread cause it concerns the launcher not the golem....
If not that then the opposite in relation to the hyperthetical you espouse is otherwise the alternative of not the opposite of the unreal value of the inverse statement , isnt it !
Oh and FYI your not the thread police I'll post Golem/Bastion/RHML points here as 1) I want to 2) its the more relevant thread.
If you thing that RHML bonusing is going to make overpower then you are insane, that is if that is what your saying, who the f knows tbh.
RHML is less powerful to start with than either Torp or Cruise. It needs the same bonusing on the hull to keep it's power in ratio with other BS launchers. Otherwise its not an option and Sandbox means options.
Kronos flyer would be rightly miffed if 350's and D250's did not get bonused removing choice.
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
210
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 14:16:00 -
[7410] - Quote
Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? Outside of bastion, what is not useful in hulls you want to move a lot or while relaying on remote repair, the new ones are worse for most applications and the changes make the hulls pointless in nearly every of the old niches where they where competitive or slightly better than faction BS. |
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
641
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 14:28:00 -
[7411] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? Outside of bastion, what is not useful in hulls you want to move a lot or while relaying on remote repair, the new ones are worse for most applications and the changes make the hulls pointless in nearly every of the old niches where they where competitive or slightly better than faction BS.
I am not aware of any situations where a marauder is better than a faction/pirate when provided with what is currently live on TQ. |

Jake Sake
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 14:34:00 -
[7412] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? ....
Obviously not. But it brings some strings attached. Same bonuses on both ship types. Same models. Pretty similar role (just different approach to it).
Fixing any or all of it in any extent requires heaps of human-butt-hours of office work. Expansion is due in 10 days. Sadly that won't happen. As anything else that is truly in need of change:
1. Tractor bonuses (just add 5th and 6th bonuses to ship for each level of Adv. Ship command and move tractor speed and range there from role bonus, as well as Jump drive reactivation delay -12-15% per level: will be 60-75% at 5th lvl pretty close to original).
2. Vargur did got the short end of stick in this update (discussed in hundreds of posts).
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
well and heaps of other small things.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
653
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 14:50:00 -
[7413] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. I dont think you get it.. Vargur got zero buffs. BAStion is NEGATIVE on it . The MJD thing is cool, but is INFERIOR to old vargur speedy movment when you run L4 to make real isk real fast. I repeat.. vargur got ZERO buffs!! Using bastion mode is detrimental to anyoen that knew how to use the ship. Zero buffs you say? Surely you must be mistaken? Well if you insist - Reduced mass - Improved inertia modifier (I think) - Improved shield capacity - Improved capacitor capacity - Improved targeting range - Improved Scan res - Improved sig radius - Extra high slot - Almost double PG - Decreased MJD activation time Now I might be crazy but those seem like buffs to me? Might need a 3rd party to corroborate. let me go 1 by 1
- Reduced mass - More than coutnered by speed reduction - Improved inertia modifier (I think) - aligns a bit better because of mass. Effectively not usable because speed reduction takes you more than that.
- Improved shield capacity - Almost irrelevant, as I said vargur can already shug any damage incommign from any level 4 as if it was a joke
- Improved capacitor capacity- since the only things using capacitor were the tank (That was already overpowered for its usage) and the prop mod.. that now is less useful and you need to run it for longer time, effectively makign you use MORE cap during the mission
- Improved targeting range - You mean you can now lock stuff way outside any possible engagement range of your AC? Imrpessively useful
- Improved Scan res - Ok this is a boost, small sicne marauders can already lock so many targets taht you have a queue of targets that never empties... so it can save you 2 seconds at start of mission
- Improved sig radius - Again, vargur coudl already ignore a level 4 damage level!!!
- Extra high slot - to fit what? the useles bastion mode? yet ANOTHER tractor bem? LOL - Almost double PG - the first 5% are useful, the rest is overkil lsince no one will use arties. So is a joke in fact.
- Decreased MJD activation time - As I sated this is the only real bonus the ship got.. And its almost useles since the old vargur used MWD AND AB on the best way to run missions.
|

Liquidtrance123
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 15:15:00 -
[7414] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 15:16:00 -
[7415] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?
Can't the same be said for all minor nerfs? If you don't nerf, even a little when giving huge boosts to PG/CPU/Tank/ and little boost to range/EHP/Agility/Mass then you know what you get? Powercreep. I figure for all the boosts we got a minor speed nerf is a pretty good trade off. I dont think you get it.. Vargur got zero buffs. BAStion is NEGATIVE on it . The MJD thing is cool, but is INFERIOR to old vargur speedy movment when you run L4 to make real isk real fast. I repeat.. vargur got ZERO buffs!! Using bastion mode is detrimental to anyoen that knew how to use the ship. Zero buffs you say? Surely you must be mistaken? Well if you insist - Reduced mass - Improved inertia modifier (I think) - Improved shield capacity - Improved capacitor capacity - Improved targeting range - Improved Scan res - Improved sig radius - Extra high slot - Almost double PG - Decreased MJD activation time Now I might be crazy but those seem like buffs to me? Might need a 3rd party to corroborate. let me go 1 by 1 - Reduced mass - More than coutnered by speed reduction - Improved inertia modifier (I think) - aligns a bit better because of mass. Effectively not usable because speed reduction takes you more than that. - Improved shield capacity - Almost irrelevant, as I said vargur can already shug any damage incommign from any level 4 as if it was a joke - Improved capacitor capacity- since the only things using capacitor were the tank (That was already overpowered for its usage) and the prop mod.. that now is less useful and you need to run it for longer time, effectively makign you use MORE cap during the mission - Improved targeting range - You mean you can now lock stuff way outside any possible engagement range of your AC? Imrpessively useful - Improved Scan res - Ok this is a boost, small sicne marauders can already lock so many targets taht you have a queue of targets that never empties... so it can save you 2 seconds at start of mission - Improved sig radius - Again, vargur coudl already ignore a level 4 damage level!!! - Extra high slot - to fit what? the useles bastion mode? yet ANOTHER tractor bem? LOL - Almost double PG - the first 5% are useful, the rest is overkil lsince no one will use arties. So is a joke in fact. - Decreased MJD activation time - As I sated this is the only real bonus the ship got.. And its almost useles since the old vargur used MWD AND AB on the best way to run missions. Doesn't matter, you said there were zero buffs. You were wrong or lying or being a drama queen. Wonder what else you've said is just complete and utter BS? You obviously don't care about the truth.
Also a LOT of those buffs are really really good and will make a huge difference in PvP for example. Just because you lack the imagination or creativity to see how those buffs can be used to improve both PvE and PvP doesn't mean others are bound by the same limitations. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
641
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 15:31:00 -
[7416] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Doesn't matter, you said there were zero buffs. You were wrong or lying or being a drama queen. Wonder what else you've said is just complete and utter BS? You obviously don't care about the truth.
Also a LOT of those buffs are really really good and will make a huge difference in PvP for example. Just because you lack the imagination or creativity to see how those buffs can be used to improve both PvE and PvP doesn't mean others are bound by the same limitations.
Everyone seems to forget about the most substantial buff of them all.
E-WAR IMMUNITY!!!!
You can sit there and poke at it all you want, but this buff alone leads to twice the effectiveness of these ships compared to what's on TQ.
No more issues with damps, jams, or tracking dis.
And if you say those were never that big of an issue you're full of sh!t.
i've flown both Gallente and Caldari missions against serps and guristas...
It is damn near impossible to perform in these missions with a marauder, expecially when you consider jams against their existing scan res on TQ.
Even if you do get a targetting window through jams, it takes too long to target the jamming ships and you're lucky if you get a volley off.
You may say that you never see enough jam/damp/tracking dis missions for it to make a difference, but I disagree, as their are agents out there that I have flown for where a minimum of 50% of the missions given to me had some form of ewar the was detrimental to marauders. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 15:41:00 -
[7417] - Quote
Liquidtrance123 wrote:Jake Sake wrote:
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed.
I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application.
Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at.
|

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
641
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 15:52:00 -
[7418] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Liquidtrance123 wrote:Jake Sake wrote:
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed. I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application. Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at.
When I fly my nightmare I never use anything with greater range on my t2 tachs than navy infrared.
With the Pali range, I would say you should never need anything more than maybe navy standard at max targetting range.
However, I will say that Marauders at least have the capability to bombard high sec POSes at long range, though the Golem is the best suited for it.
I suppose that maybe each of these ships has a niche situation where it is better than another ship.
Golem - POS bashing Paladin - Counter sniper Vargur - CQB - I.E., fit ACs and burn close range targets Kronos - Kinda the all around ship... The jack of all trades. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:12:00 -
[7419] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:bombard high sec POSes at long range
If you ever find yourself doing this you should immediately uninstall eve and go have a serious word with yourself  |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
440
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:47:00 -
[7420] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I suppose that maybe each of these ships has a niche situation where it is better than another ship.
Golem - POS bashing Paladin - Counter sniper Vargur - CQB - I.E., fit ACs and burn close range targets Kronos - Kinda the all around ship... The jack of all trades. It seems fairly clear that the speed reductions all but limits the Marauders to a long-range role. To make them slightly more useful in short-range rolls, I would suggest the following:
GÇó Increase the base speed of the Kronos to 115 m/sec (-5) and the Vargur to 120 m/sec (-10). GÇó Replace the Golem's Marauder TP bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus (in-line with the T1 Raven bonuses) GÇó Replace the Vargur's Marauder tracking bonus with a 5% damage bonus (in-line with the T1 Tempest bonuses). |
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
963
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:58:00 -
[7421] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull. Maybe we can nerf the Paladin as well then everyone will be unhappy with Marauders... 
Good job, Arthur! You've shown that you know how to completely remove the context from what someone is saying by only quoting the part of it that's to your strategic advantage and leaving the next part (with all the meaning in it) unquoted. You totally ignored the next paragraph, didn't you? Here, I'll post it for you again:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull.
Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
I even added some formatting to help you see it.
Also, I've been flying a Vargur around on SiSi lately and I'm not sure what all the fuss is about regarding mobility. They don't seem all that slow compared to a Tempest. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
963
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:03:00 -
[7422] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Liquidtrance123 wrote:Jake Sake wrote:
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed. I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application. Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at.
If Marauders are all about projection and not damage application, why is the Paladin the only one that doesn't have an application bonus?
Kronos: Tracking Vargur: Tracking Golem: Target Painter |

Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
471
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:05:00 -
[7423] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull. Maybe we can nerf the Paladin as well then everyone will be unhappy with Marauders...  Good job, Arthur! You've shown that you know how to completely remove the context from what someone is saying by only quoting the part of it that's to your strategic advantage and leaving the next part (with all the meaning in it) unquoted. You totally ignored the next paragraph, didn't you? Here, I'll post it for you again: Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There was a brief discussion on the Test server today about the Bastion bonuses and about hull bonuses and DPS projection with short-range weapons. The Paladin's ridiculous projection (95km optimals with Scorch and two optimal-scripted TCs in Bastion) boils down to that baked-in optimal bonus on the hull.
Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
I even added some formatting to help you see it. Also, I've been flying a Vargur around on SiSi lately and I'm not sure what all the fuss is about regarding mobility. They don't seem all that slow compared to a Tempest.
They will not do tracking on pali because it will become basically better nightmare.
What it need is simple nerf bat swing...last time something had ret@rded 90km+ optimal was dominix and that one actually needed to deploy its weapons in risk of loosing them and it didn't had game mechanic breaking tank on it self.
Nice to see CCP roll with double standards i can assure you if this was case with Vargur it would be nerfed 10 pages in this thread.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
654
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:06:00 -
[7424] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Doesn't matter, you said there were zero buffs. You were wrong or lying or being a drama queen. Wonder what else you've said is just complete and utter BS? You obviously don't care about the truth.
Also a LOT of those buffs are really really good and will make a huge difference in PvP for example. Just because you lack the imagination or creativity to see how those buffs can be used to improve both PvE and PvP doesn't mean others are bound by the same limitations.
No , i am not being a drama queen, You on other hand are being a B#@!#!@#!. Everyone with half a brain understood what I meant in the context. You are not trying to have an argumentation, you are just trying to stomp your feet and nitpick ion irrelevant non arguments.
Stop that. NO ONE CARES FOR PEOPLE THAT ACT LIKE THAT!
It does not matter that my freighter suddenly got improved sensor strenght. That is NOT a buff!!!!! Same thing for the unusable changes on the vargur.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
654
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:08:00 -
[7425] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Liquidtrance123 wrote:Jake Sake wrote:
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed. I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application. Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at. If Marauders are all about projection and not damage application, why is the Paladin the only one that doesn't have an application bonus? Kronos: Tracking Vargur: Tracking Golem: Target Painter
BEcause range effectively is a damage application bonus, sicne you can use higher damage crystals and acn even use PULSE weapons.
The range bonus is the MOST POWERFUL bonus of ALL the marauders!!!!
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
963
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:32:00 -
[7426] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If Marauders are all about projection and not damage application, why is the Paladin the only one that doesn't have an application bonus?
Kronos: Tracking Vargur: Tracking Golem: Target Painter
BEcause range effectively is a damage application bonus, sicne you can use higher damage crystals and acn even use PULSE weapons. The range bonus is the MOST POWERFUL bonus of ALL the marauders!!!!
No, range bonuses are not application bonuses. They are projection bonuses. Application bonuses are things like tracking, web bonuses, bonuses to target painters, increases to explosion velocity and decreases to explosion radius. Anything that lets you apply your damage more effectively to things that are already in your current range are application bonuses.
Projection bonuses are things like optimal, falloff, increased missile velocity or longer missile flight time. Anything that lets your weapons reach further than they already do is a projection bonus. Also, if a range bonus is so powerful then it clearly belongs on a pirate ship that's geared toward all-out power and not on a Marauder that isn't - right?
With regards to "stepping on the Nightmare's toes", that's kind of invalid for two reasons; the first reason being that the other two turret Marauders already step on the toes of their respective pirate battleships and the second reason being that pirate ships haven't been rebalanced yet - this means that they can (and very well may) see modified or entirely different bonuses compared to what they have now. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
440
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:41:00 -
[7427] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Good job, Arthur! You've shown that you know how to completely remove the context from what someone is saying by only quoting the part of it that's to your strategic advantage and leaving the next part (with all the meaning in it) unquoted. You totally ignored the next paragraph, didn't you? I try. It was funny though...  (oops, did it again...) |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
129
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:53:00 -
[7428] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:I wont do that. And so for once I thought that maybe this time that kind of discussion would go a little bit further... I stated very clearly that I don't request very hard data, no proper averages and so on. Some out of blue but comparable numbers would do.
Why I insist on this? Look at it from my perspective. I have run those tests I asked you for and I got my own results and then you, or other persons, come and say that according to your theoretical analysis you come to different conclusions, which totally contradict what I've already seen on my own eyes. Can you blame me that I smell bullshit? Not because you say it, you don't, but there's definitely something amiss.
And frankly, I don't even expect from you that you run some particular test just for my sake. If you run missions you must somehow measure what performance you're getting, otherwise why bother optimizing? Thus you must have somehow come to the conclusion that SiSi Vargur was badly nerfed. And if this was based on some practical observations, this is the data I asked for.
Look at Dinsdale. With all his hysteric paranoia (or paranoic hysteria) he did the right thing. When new marauders hit SiSi he gathered bunch of people and run some incursions. This of course confirmed his initial asessment and we can talk that he was biased or if I was expert in running this stuff we could go into discussion whether each of us was doing things right or wrong or if we utilised our gear properly but one thing remains: he did test. And just for that he has my respect.
Funny you mentioned power creep, because I think that currently ships are pretty well balanced. If you are in situations where you need and can get away with having only dps then you want to fly pirate battleships. If you need more tank or flexibility (or mobility on field) then marauders are way to go. If marauders were made as powerful as most people here wanted them to, there would be zero reason to use other ships, except for not having necessary skills trained yet. And that would be power creep.
Sorry for not commenting the rest your comments. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm tired of discussing stats. To me performance is what matters and is my ultimate goal. If I pimp my ship or use an implant it's not for warm and fuzzy feeling of having cold and sharp piece of electronics plugged into my head. It's for the warm and fuzzy feeling of having bigger ticks or shorter mission time (on the other hand I'm a bit relaxed regarding total outcome, but it's a different story) and they, or other metrics, are the only criteria by which I evaluate if I'm having improvement and if it's significant.
|

Cassiel Seraphim
EVE University Ivy League
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:59:00 -
[7429] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Dav Varan wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:theres a whole thread about it: [Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchersnow i hear you saying: "but theres nothing about the Golem !!!!!11111" right but let me ask you a question: what would make the golem not op haveing bonuses applied that other bs have? I don't know what your saying there. Making RHML bonused would not make the golem op in the same way that bonusing Dual 250mm Rails won't make a kronos op. It's just a choice you make when doing your fittings. Better v big stuff or better v fast stuff. The RHML is to Cruise launchers what the Dual 250 is to 425mm Its just the weaker launcher thats easier to fit and is better at hitting fast stuff at the expense of dps. Thats why it needs to have its bonuses otherwise useless. im saying if you seriously think having bonuses apply other than those who affect the number of effective launchers (missile velocity is debateable though), wont break the game ballance your insane or stupid you may choose which. if you seriously think thos bonuses should apply plz post in the RHML thread cause it concerns the launcher not the golem.... If not that then the opposite in relation to the hyperthetical you espouse is otherwise the alternative of not the opposite of the unreal value of the inverse statement , isnt it ! Oh and FYI your not the thread police I'll post Golem/Bastion/RHML points here as 1) I want to 2) its the more relevant thread. If you thing that RHML bonusing is going to make overpower then you are insane, that is if that is what your saying, who the f knows tbh. RHML is less powerful to start with than either Torp or Cruise. It needs the same bonusing on the hull to keep it's power in ratio with other BS launchers. Otherwise its not an option and Sandbox means options. Kronos flyer would be rightly miffed if 350's and D250's did not get bonused removing choice. I'll add a few things to what Dav said ...
It would make sense to refer to the Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher thread if things were consistent. But they are not. Let me point a few things out that might help you see why we want a specific notice in _this_ thread.
1) The Marauder thread pre-dates the RHML thread.
By itself this isn't proof of anything either way, but on the other hand there's nothing that indicates whether or not it was posted with RHMLs in mind. So it's a fair question in that regard.
2) The RHML thread specifically mentions that ships with damage or rate of fire bonuses would have them apply.
CCP Rise wrote:Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity). Now, combine that post with the fact that the role bonus of the Golem is in fact a damage bonus (intended to give them 8 effective launchers for the cheap price of just fitting 4 actual launchers), then it doesn't look like they've thought about the Golem at all in terms of the new rapid heavy missile launchers. If they had, there would have been a mention of them, wouldn't there?
According to what they say in the RHML thread, the role bonus of +100% damage should apply, since it's a damage bonus and every other battleship on Singularity with a damage or rate of fire bonus has had its bonused changed to include heavy missiles. Except the Golem and the poor Widow.
3) The argument that the bonus applying to heavy missiles would make the Golem overpowered.
First of all this argument is made by players with no substantial quotes from devs to back it up, but even so I can shoot it down. Assuming the damage bonus would apply to heavies for the Golem, it would only match the dps of Ravens and Raven Navy Issues (the RNI wouldn't get the application bonus so it too would be on par with the regular Raven). If you think that a tech two marauder is overpowered simply by having the same damage as a tech one battleship, then that's fine. But if you were under the erroneous assumption that it would suddenly become this beast of a ship, then think again.
Conclusion:
Perhaps it's intentional that the projection bonuses or application bonuses, like explosive radius and velocity isn't affecting the heavy missiles. But even so it's obvious that they have failed to comment on the Golem in this regard, as it doesn't conform to any of their other statements about the new rapids, like the damage bonus. As such, it's far more likely that it's an oversight.
So please CCP, can you clarify your intentions about the Golem and heavy missile bonuses? And while you're at it, fix the poor Widow too, she already lost her husband, don't make her lose her bonus too :)
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
440
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 18:49:00 -
[7430] - Quote
I honestly don't see why the Golem can't have its bonus extended to RHMLs. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 18:54:00 -
[7431] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I suppose that maybe each of these ships has a niche situation where it is better than another ship.
Golem - POS bashing Paladin - Counter sniper Vargur - CQB - I.E., fit ACs and burn close range targets Kronos - Kinda the all around ship... The jack of all trades. It seems fairly clear that the speed reductions all but limits the Marauders to a long-range role. To make them slightly more useful in short-range rolls, I would suggest the following: GÇó Increase the base speed of the Kronos to 115 m/sec (-5) and the Vargur to 120 m/sec (-10). GÇó Replace the Golem's Marauder TP bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus (in-line with the T1 Raven bonuses) GÇó Replace the Vargur's Marauder tracking bonus with a 5% damage bonus (in-line with the T1 Tempest bonuses).
are you serious? so golem and vargur magically gets a 25% bonus to dps ? how is that balancing? can you imagine how OP that sounds? the only reason tempest, raven gets a ROF is because they have less guns, missile bays. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
42
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 19:03:00 -
[7432] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Hell ***** wrote:Liquidtrance123 wrote:Jake Sake wrote:
3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.
Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed. I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application. Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at. If Marauders are all about projection and not damage application, why is the Paladin the only one that doesn't have an application bonus? Kronos: Tracking Vargur: Tracking Golem: Target Painter
When you are fighting at 50km + with the lasers, tracking is almost useless. Vargur needs tracking because its a close range ship,
i can say the same about why vargur has to fight in falloff when all other marauder fights in optimal range. paladin is OP as is, no need to fine tune it most to optimize its damage even more.
people say vargur got nerf vs the TQ version. well its not true imo, it got nerfed in comparison because every other marauder got stronger but vargur got nothing useful.
|

Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 19:36:00 -
[7433] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I suppose that maybe each of these ships has a niche situation where it is better than another ship.
Golem - POS bashing Paladin - Counter sniper Vargur - CQB - I.E., fit ACs and burn close range targets Kronos - Kinda the all around ship... The jack of all trades. It seems fairly clear that the speed reductions all but limits the Marauders to a long-range role. To make them slightly more useful in short-range rolls, I would suggest the following: GÇó Increase the base speed of the Kronos to 115 m/sec (-5) and the Vargur to 120 m/sec (-10). GÇó Replace the Golem's Marauder TP bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus (in-line with the T1 Raven bonuses) GÇó Replace the Vargur's Marauder tracking bonus with a 5% damage bonus (in-line with the T1 Tempest bonuses). are you serious? so golem and vargur magically gets a 25% bonus to dps ? how is that balancing? can you imagine how OP that sounds? the only reason tempest, raven gets a ROF is because they have less guns, missile bays.
Besides that, Arthur Aihaken, really?
Close range....yet invalidate golem's close range weapon system... seriously? How that would be in line with the other non-missile setups using close range turrets?
If TP-s are gone... what to fit in the three (3) empty slots? As it has no "missile tracking computers"... OP as hell, on top of this the dps....
If you go through with this, lets forbid any close range weapons on all of them. There: "true sniper" -.- |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
444
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 20:55:00 -
[7434] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:are you serious? so golem and vargur magically gets a 25% bonus to dps ? how is that balancing? can you imagine how OP that sounds? the only reason tempest, raven gets a ROF is because they have less guns, missile bays.
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:Close range....yet invalidate golem's close range weapon system... seriously? How that would be in line with the other non-missile setups using close range turrets? It doesn't really matter at this point, as the new Marauders are so flawed they're beyond redemption. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
964
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 21:01:00 -
[7435] - Quote
Paladin has a damage bonus. Vargur has a RoF bonus. Kronos has a damage bonus. Golem has a ...velocity bonus. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
444
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 21:03:00 -
[7436] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Paladin has a damage bonus. Vargur has a RoF bonus. Kronos has a damage bonus. Golem has a ...velocity bonus. Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair". |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 21:22:00 -
[7437] - Quote
Cassiel Seraphim wrote: I'll add a few things to what Dav said ...
It would make sense to refer to the Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher thread if things were consistent. But they are not. Let me point a few things out that might help you see why we want a specific notice in _this_ thread.
you do realize he was not talking only about the 100% launcher dmg bonus which would be totaly fine if it applied, but of speed and explosion velocity and bastion too?
Dav Varan wrote:
RHML is less powerful to start with than either Torp or Cruise. It needs the same bonusing on the hull to keep it's power in ratio with other BS launchers. Otherwise its not an option and Sandbox means options.
Kronos flyer would be rightly miffed if 350's and D250's did not get bonused removing choice.
this may be true for pve but i cant help it... im pretty sure applying all bonuses (painter do already apply) would make it a ridiculus force in pvp.
the other bs do not get ex radius and ex velocity for a reason! if you'd just wanted the 100% dmg bonus to apply it would be fine, although with bonused target painters on the hull it would be more bonused than any other bs having the option to fit those so that might be the reason why it does not apply.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 21:49:00 -
[7438] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Paladin has a damage bonus. Vargur has a RoF bonus. Kronos has a damage bonus. Golem has a ...velocity bonus. Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".
vargur only exp damage for t2 ammo kronos lock in them/kin paladin lock in them/em golem all damage types for t2 ammo.
i think dev should half the distance of all cruise missiles that wayou will appreciate the velocity bonus on the golem more instead of the current wahhh too much range i dont need. we need rof instead!! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
454
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 22:07:00 -
[7439] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:i think dev should half the distance of all cruise missiles that wayou will appreciate the velocity bonus on the golem more instead of the current wahhh too much range i dont need. we need rof instead!! Please. The velocity bonus gain on the Golem is equivalent to an extra T1 hydraulic rig that any T1 or Faction hull can run. Without having to remain stationary. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 22:33:00 -
[7440] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mer88 wrote:i think dev should half the distance of all cruise missiles that wayou will appreciate the velocity bonus on the golem more instead of the current wahhh too much range i dont need. we need rof instead!! Please. The velocity bonus gain on the Golem is equivalent to an extra T1 hydraulic rig that any T1 or Faction hull can run. Without having to remain stationary.
huh? the bonus is 50% to velocity. or are you talking about bastions 30%? all i am saying is if dev nerf the cruise missile speed/ flighttime, then they will appreciate the hull bonus. but on second thought, it will compeletely screw the hulls with no velocity bonus like raven or scorpion navy |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
454
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 23:03:00 -
[7441] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:huh? the bonus is 50% to velocity. or are you talking about bastions 30%? all i am saying is if dev nerf the cruise missile speed/ flighttime, then they will appreciate the hull bonus. but on second thought, it will compeletely screw the hulls with no velocity bonus like raven or scorpion navy I thought we were referring to the Bastion's bonus, sorry.
The problem isn't the range, it's the missile speed (or lack thereof). Without the missile velocity watching anything try and reach its target is like watching paint dry (actually, watching paint dry might be preferable). |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 23:30:00 -
[7442] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Paladin has a damage bonus. Vargur has a RoF bonus. Kronos has a damage bonus. Golem has a ...velocity bonus. Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".
BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
964
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 00:26:00 -
[7443] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Paladin has a damage bonus. Vargur has a RoF bonus. Kronos has a damage bonus. Golem has a ...velocity bonus. Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair". BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus.
Does the Raven State Issue, which still exists, count as "in the game"? Eight launchers, RoF bonus. |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
55
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 03:42:00 -
[7444] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though: Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 08:17:00 -
[7445] - Quote
kronos is better with optimal bonus than falloff i seriously doubt blaster gonna be a good all around mission boat most would just stick to railguns. |

Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 08:34:00 -
[7446] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Does the Raven State Issue, which still exists, count as "in the game"? Eight launchers, RoF bonus.
So grab your State raven a go fly with it if u think your argument is valid ... |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
655
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 10:53:00 -
[7447] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Xequecal wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Paladin has a damage bonus. Vargur has a RoF bonus. Kronos has a damage bonus. Golem has a ...velocity bonus. Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair". BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus. Does the Raven State Issue, which still exists, count as "in the game"? Eight launchers, RoF bonus.
Unique ships are NOT balanced. You could have a 800% damage bonus on state raven that would mean nothing to eve balance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
655
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 10:55:00 -
[7448] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though: Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else.
Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin.
Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!!
GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE!
The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance) |

chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
55
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 11:31:00 -
[7449] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though: Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else. Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin. Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!! GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE! The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance)
CCP said they didn't want to remove the stacking penalty from bastion because of the paladin. The hull bonus is the problem. It can reach over 90km optimal with pulses w/o bastion. The point is to change this bonus while improving the bastion bonus by removing the stacking penalty, so that all marauders can be better. Either that or improving the range bonus on the hulls of the other marauders... I kinda like the idea though of bastion being useful on side.
Tracking has less of an impact the further out you are, agreed. This is why the paladin is crazy right now... Normally you gotta trade range for base wep tracking. It's way out of place right now compared to the rest of the marauders. If CCP finds they paladin acceptable, other marauders need their hull bonus to range increased. No reason the paladin should get that kinda range with pulse outside of bastion, while the vargur can't even overcome the machs turret dps lead with bastion |

Kane Fenris
NWP
112
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 11:52:00 -
[7450] - Quote
for your notice:
CCP Rise wrote:zbaaca wrote:will role bonus on golem affect RHML ? Yes
from: [Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2 |
|

SOL Ranger
SOL.
61
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 15:20:00 -
[7451] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
CCP said they didn't want to remove the stacking penalty from bastion because of the paladin. The hull bonus is the problem. It can reach over 90km optimal with pulses w/o bastion. The point is to change this bonus while improving the bastion bonus by removing the stacking penalty, so that all marauders can be better. Either that or improving the range bonus on the hulls of the other marauders... I kinda like the idea though of bastion being useful on side.
Tracking has less of an impact the further out you are, agreed. This is why the paladin is crazy right now... Normally you gotta trade range for base wep tracking. It's way out of place right now compared to the rest of the marauders. If CCP finds they paladin acceptable, other marauders need their hull bonus to range increased. No reason the paladin should get that kinda range with pulse outside of bastion, while the vargur can't even overcome the machs turret dps lead with bastion
If short range weapons are too long range with T2 long range ammo, then the T2 long range ammo must be addressed.
If long range weapons are too short range in general then the long range weapon systems should be addressed directly.
CCP does neither and prefers to just avoid the issue, which is unfortunate, but it isn't a reason to mess up the Paladin, the only Marauder with decent useful long range potential.
The problem was never the range bonus in bastion, nor was it any bonus on the hulls, just simply T2 ammo on short range weapons, I don't know why CCP wants people to use short range weapons at long ranges, I'm assuming they want to because a dev had 'positive' comments about 90km null blasters, even when they're stating they don't like short range weapons hitting too far aka. scorch, mixed messages.
Additionally, changing the bonus on the Paladin will make it less optimal for MJD/Bastion and a tracking bonus is quite useless on a tach paladin anyway... it would not be a good idea, we really don't want more short range Marauders and then subsequently seeing them get screwed by having to use Bastion/MJD.
Scorch, Barrage and Null aren't fine, stacking penalized range bonuses on Bastion aren't fine... those issues need to be addressed directly.
What I'm saying is, Paladin is fine, I just bought one yesterday when partially preparing to flee from the Vargur, don't you dare touch it or I'm gonna have a stroke, please for the love of science and kittens don't try to drag down the only gun platform Marauder really working, if anything then try to buff the Vargur and Kronos as you mentioned.
Vargur: 15% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level(was 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level) *Yes, people will still use AC's in PvE exclusively, just because Artillery dps is weaksauce, that issue won't be solved until the weapons themselves are looked at. Vargur is an AC platform, regardless of what kinds of artillery yout PG allows you to fit on it; Changing any bonus to an optimal bonus would just kill it outright.
Kronos: 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level(was 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level *Is now a rail/blaster boat very practical with MJD/Bastion.
Or something, I'm tired of thinking about Marauders... |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
661
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 15:37:00 -
[7452] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.
I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though: Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else. Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin. Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!! GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE! The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance) CCP said they didn't want to remove the stacking penalty from bastion because of the paladin. The hull bonus is the problem. It can reach over 90km optimal with pulses w/o bastion. The point is to change this bonus while improving the bastion bonus by removing the stacking penalty, so that all marauders can be better. Either that or improving the range bonus on the hulls of the other marauders... I kinda like the idea though of bastion being useful on side. Tracking has less of an impact the further out you are, agreed. This is why the paladin is crazy right now... Normally you gotta trade range for base wep tracking. It's way out of place right now compared to the rest of the marauders. If CCP finds they paladin acceptable, other marauders need their hull bonus to range increased. No reason the paladin should get that kinda range with pulse outside of bastion, while the vargur can't even overcome the machs turret dps lead with bastion
Its not that way out. Cruise golems and rail kronos can match it pretty well.
In fact most peopel will use tachyons not pulses on paladin. Anyoen that has tried them seriously and tested on sisi knows it.
So the too much range on pulse is not relevant. THe apoc is not problematic with pulses, so the paladin will nto be as well.
If the paladin gets a trackign isntead of range bonus, then it will become another useles marauder.
|

Nenwe
Peaceful Whalers inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 15:54:00 -
[7453] - Quote
I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)
Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)
Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)
Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion |

stoicfaux
3327
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:44:00 -
[7454] - Quote
Nenwe wrote: Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)
Use cruise on the Golem for missions. Or use torps on the CNR, and then compare the two. Translation: cruise >>> torps for most PvE.
|

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
161
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 18:18:00 -
[7455] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Kronos: 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level(was 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level *Is now a rail/blaster boat very practical with MJD/Bastion.
Or something, I'm tired of thinking about Marauders... Since lasers have Scorch, AC's have Barrage, and missiles just have crazy range to begin with I think this is a great idea. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
129
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 18:45:00 -
[7456] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Kronos: 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level(was 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level *Is now a rail/blaster boat very practical with MJD/Bastion.
Or something, I'm tired of thinking about Marauders... Since lasers have Scorch, AC's have Barrage, and missiles just have crazy range to begin with I think this is a great idea. No, it's not. Please put your hands down and step away from the falloff bonus.
Hint: falloff still enhances rails while optimal does not benefit blasters. |

Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse Cannibal Empire
2678
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 19:01:00 -
[7457] - Quote
Why does CCP keep on ranting about the ******** MJD for these ships. Don't need web bonus you got that ******** MJD.
**** OFF... how does that help me in pvp? Or for people that don't use long range weapons. Do you guys actually think before making changes?
I honestly think CCP is lazy here with these blanket changes to these marauders. If they wanted to do any of these ships justice each one would have had it's own set abilities and buffs using bastion mode or your ******** MJD bonus. Instead they them all the exact same change on ships that work and function completely different from each other. Lets nerf the hull and their stats to hell so to make them utterly useless outside of bastion.
Weak.. just Weak. My beloved Kronos... web bones removed on a ship designed to be in your face. Which makes going in to bastion mode useless since the little bastards will just need to orbit close. At that point... I will really miss my bloody web bones.
So in conclusion... **** your MJD. Only reason I preferred the Kronos over the vindi is the 3 nuets I could add and it's additional web bones. Now it is getting sold. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
466
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 19:07:00 -
[7458] - Quote
Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues. |

Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse Cannibal Empire
2678
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 19:16:00 -
[7459] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Why does CCP keep on ranting about the ******** MJD for these ships. Don't need web bonus you got that ******** MJD.
**** OFF... how does that help me in pvp? Or for people that don't use long range weapons. Do you guys actually think before making changes?
I honestly think CCP is lazy here with these blanket changes to these marauders. If they wanted to do any of these ships justice each one would have had it's own set abilities and buffs using bastion mode or your ******** MJD bonus. Instead they give them all the exact same change on ships that work and function completely different from each other. Lets nerf the hull and their stats to hell so to make them utterly useless outside of bastion.
Weak.. just Weak. My beloved Kronos... web bones removed on a ship designed to be in your face. Which makes going in to bastion mode useless since the little bastards will just need to orbit close. At that point... I will really miss my bloody web bones.
So in conclusion... **** your MJD. Only reason I preferred the Kronos over the vindi is the 3 nuets I could add and it's additional web bones. Now it is getting sold.
Sorry I started getting agitated about reading "USE MJD" for X.
If you gearing these ship for more PVE focus then I guess that is what they will be used for. Just an irritation that their PVP abilities is getting severely limited. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
967
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 19:50:00 -
[7460] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues.
Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
468
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 19:53:00 -
[7461] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow. I guess that's that then. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 20:37:00 -
[7462] - Quote
Nenwe wrote:I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)
Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)
Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)
Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion
why would u even fit mjd on a cruise missile golem? mission has always been find without it. mjd is for pvp and long range sentry boats . theres no reason to fit it on 95% of the missions. especially on missile boat.
u said cnr runs missile 50% faster than golem? post what mission you are comparing to and time it took? i find cruise golem and cnr near identical on TQ for missioning but i choose golem for occassional looting and lesser ammo usage. Torp golem is 100% for sure faster for certain missions like buzz kill, damsel , attack of the drones even gone beserk. |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
643
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 20:42:00 -
[7463] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Nenwe wrote:I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)
Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)
Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)
Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion why would u even fit mjd on a cruise missile golem? mission has always been find without it. mjd is for pvp and long range sentry boats . theres no reason to fit it on 95% of the missions. especially on missile boat. u said cnr runs missile 50% faster than golem? post what mission you are comparing to and time it took? i find cruise golem and cnr near identical on TQ for missioning but i choose golem for occassional looting and lesser ammo usage. Torp golem is 100% for sure faster for certain missions like buzz kill, damsel , attack of the drones even gone beserk.
Even though the Golem doesn't use cap for weapons, it still has terrible cap. A MWD burns through cap so quickly, it's not worth it. However, an AB doen't give enough speed to be worth the slot it takes. Torp Golems aren't the best way to fly the Golem anymore. It's at most 200 dps more than a Cruise Golem, but at less that 1/6th the range WITH T2 range rigs, and even with jav torps, you're getting less dps than Fury cruise, and still have less range by a significant amount.
So, this leads to triagulate with MJD and cruise. You'll continue hitting targets the entire time, and in many missions, you'll get there faster, and have more cap left over. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 21:51:00 -
[7464] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues. Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.
And I think he is darn wrong. In order them to be "the epitome of tanking", they have already paid this by;
- being completely stationary - not being able to switch this so-called-"epic" state for 1 min.
While being out of bastion, nerfing them means they're being punished for what they already have so far. Nothing more. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 22:12:00 -
[7465] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues. Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.
Maybe the missions will get redesigned in a way that these insane tanks will make sense.
In any case Vargur with MWD is only 7.1% faster than the Paladin. One needs to move, the other doesn't. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
62
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 22:46:00 -
[7466] - Quote
I firmly believe the Vargur requires a few(3-4) launcher hardpoints, following Tempest/Minmatar tradition and design.
It would slightly combat the homogenization currently plaguing the Bastion Marauders and also combat the inherent drawbacks the Vargur suffers from in the current intended role in Rubicon.
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
969
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:31:00 -
[7467] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues. Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow. Maybe the missions will get redesigned in a way that these insane tanks will make sense. In any case Vargur with MWD is only 7.1% faster than the Paladin. One needs to move, the other doesn't.
Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".
SOL Ranger wrote:I firmly believe the Vargur requires a few(3-4) launcher hardpoints, following Tempest/Minmatar tradition and design.
It would slightly combat the homogenization currently plaguing the Bastion Marauders and also combat the inherent drawbacks the Vargur suffers from in the current intended role in Rubicon.
If the Vargur had launcher hardpoints, that would be amazing. I vote yes to this. Very very yes. RHMLs are go. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:11:00 -
[7468] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".
Luckily even Ytterbium would disagree with that argument: :)
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD.
I am banking on him finally realising that it is a bit unbalanced that all marauders have practically the same DPS and speed with MWD - but some of them have to move closer to apply that damage. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 00:13:00 -
[7469] - Quote
I have a few suggestions, tell me what you think:
1. Bastion range bonus: 15% optimal, 30% falloff, 20% missile speed, 20% flight time, no stacking penalty
First range is current SISI build, 2nd is with my suggestion. (All data is from EFT, therefore may be incorrect. Also my apologies, if it is hard to read.)
Pulse Paladin with 2x TC II, Conflag/INMF: 31.6km + 18.7km vs 30.8km + 21.3km (-0.8km + 2.6km) Tachyon Paladin with 2x TC II, INMF: 69.6km + 46.8km vs 67.8km + 53.3km (-1.8km + 6.5km) Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, Null: 18.8km + 40.5km vs 18.1km + 45.6km (-0.7km + 5.1km) Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, CNAM: 6.7km + 28.9km vs 6.5km vs 32.5km (-0.2km + 3.6km) Vargur 2x TC II, 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.6km + 70.8km vs 4.5km vs 80.5km (-0.1km + 9.7km) Vargur 2x TC II, 1x TE II 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.7km + 74.8km vs 4.7km + 89.7km (0km + 14.9km) Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, rage torp: 43.4km vs 53.9km (+10.5km) Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, CN torp: 52.1km vs 64.7km (+12.6km)
Paladin stays practically the same, Kronos gets a bit more falloff, Vargur and torp Golem finally see decent increases in range. Bastion gives twice as much falloff than optimal in line with TCs and recently rebalanced TEs. Ships which can (and need to) fit more than 2 range mods are not penalised for that any more.
2. Increase the PG requirement of bastion to 1100.
Tachyon Paladin is getting too good. It will be much better than the Nightmare. Even with this change it could still fit everything but with small compromises. Rest of the ships - including pulse Paladin - are unaffected.
3. Reverse the speed nerf. (It is too big of a nerf for the Vargur.) |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
57
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 08:36:00 -
[7470] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:I have a few suggestions, tell me what you think:
1. Bastion range bonus: 15% optimal, 30% falloff, 20% missile speed, 20% flight time, no stacking penalty
First range is current SISI build, 2nd is with my suggestion. (All data is from EFT, therefore may be incorrect. Also my apologies, if it is hard to read.)
Pulse Paladin with 2x TC II, Conflag/INMF: 31.6km + 18.7km vs 30.8km + 21.3km (-0.8km + 2.6km) Tachyon Paladin with 2x TC II, INMF: 69.6km + 46.8km vs 67.8km + 53.3km (-1.8km + 6.5km) Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, Null: 18.8km + 40.5km vs 18.1km + 45.6km (-0.7km + 5.1km) Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, CNAM: 6.7km + 28.9km vs 6.5km vs 32.5km (-0.2km + 3.6km) Vargur 2x TC II, 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.6km + 70.8km vs 4.5km vs 80.5km (-0.1km + 9.7km) Vargur 2x TC II, 1x TE II 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.7km + 74.8km vs 4.7km + 89.7km (0km + 14.9km) Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, rage torp: 43.4km vs 53.9km (+10.5km) Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, CN torp: 52.1km vs 64.7km (+12.6km)
Paladin stays practically the same, Kronos gets a bit more falloff, Vargur and torp Golem finally see decent increases in range. Bastion gives twice as much falloff than optimal in line with TCs and recently rebalanced TEs. Ships which can (and need to) fit more than 2 range mods are not penalised for that any more.
2. Increase the PG requirement of bastion to 1100.
Tachyon Paladin is getting too good. It will be much better than the Nightmare. Even with this change it could still fit everything but with small compromises. Rest of the ships - including pulse Paladin - are unaffected.
3. Reverse the speed nerf. (It is too big of a nerf for the Vargur.)
Something along the lines of this.
Current bastion with it's stacking nerf PISSES all over the Vargur and Golem SO BADLY(Torp Golem obv)
It's a big "F YOU" in the face for those ships.
Tweak the freaking bonuses and make them not stacking penalized and give me my 75/125 dronebay back on my Kronos
These are STILL after 372 pages and like 2 months the biggest pile of **** changes to this game during the last 2 years.
Also. Vargur and Kronos is overnerfed in the speed department.
Why the frack is the Paladin almost able to keep up with a Vargur? which is designed to use AC's(yes I know it has grid for Arty but they're beoynd **** for pve)
Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.
|
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8499
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 10:31:00 -
[7471] - Quote
Doed wrote: Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.
Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
57
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 10:51:00 -
[7472] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote: Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.
Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work.
Yes, it's better than a T1 mega at almost 10 times the price unless the enemy has a Griffin. Or you fly a 7 low 3 mid Kronos(Mandatory mid for ECCM to get it on par with normal t1 ships)
It's also A LOT slower than the Mega.
It's ass. and at 40km it deals less damage than it does on live.
Oh. and it's stationary if you want to use this bastion stuff. which will be so stacking nerfed on ALL the Marauders they might aswell just take away the bonus.
Good job. (Sarcasm) |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
673
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 11:20:00 -
[7473] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".
Luckily even Ytterbium would disagree with that argument: :) CCP Ytterbium wrote: Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD.
I am banking on him finally realising that it is a bit unbalanced that all marauders have practically the same DPS and speed with MWD - but some of them have to move closer to apply that damage.
THAT.. If the vargur has a much inferiro damage projection (example0) it needs to keep its superior speed. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 12:12:00 -
[7474] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:[ THAT.. If the vargur has a much inferiro damage projection (example0) it needs to keep its superior speed.
This whole speed nerf makes less sense to me the more I think about it.
It is not enough that long range ships can just go into bastion and enjoy the perks (EW immunity, unholy tank, better range) ALL THE TIME, the speed of short range ships is getting nerfed, which means they will spend even less time in bastion mode. (EDIT:) Even if CCP kept the Vargur's speed as it is on TQ, it still couldn't take as much advantage of the bastion module as the Paladin. Same goes for the Kronos.
I would love to hear someone from CCP make sense of this. |

Sarka Llerious
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 13:39:00 -
[7475] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:[ THAT.. If the vargur has a much inferiro damage projection (example0) it needs to keep its superior speed. This whole speed nerf makes less sense to me the more I think about it. ... I would love to hear someone from CCP make sense of this.
Everyone ready to join in the chorus?
"It rebalances the gameplay to make for a more rebalanced game, in preparation for future rebalancing." (repeat, ad nauseum)
...
Oh, you wanted it to make sense OUTSIDE the bubble?! |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 13:55:00 -
[7476] - Quote
still "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things??? drop it, enough.. it is NOT a specific fitting rebalance, it is fckn broken marauder(T2) class rebalance.. and after all, they are now having better hull and bonuses.. and plus a bastion module for only marauders, it is all up to you "use or not"..
look over the market a bit, you will find the answer.. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8502
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 14:57:00 -
[7477] - Quote
Doed wrote:baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote: Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.
Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work. Yes, it's better than a T1 mega at almost 10 times the price unless the enemy has a Griffin. Or you fly a 7 low 3 mid Kronos(Mandatory mid for ECCM to get it on par with normal t1 ships) It's also A LOT slower than the Mega. It's ass. and at 40km it deals less damage than it does on live. Oh. and it's stationary if you want to use this bastion stuff. which will be so stacking nerfed on ALL the Marauders they might aswell just take away the bonus. Good job. (Sarcasm)
Cost is never factored into game balance.
It also will not be needing ECCM for fleet work and at 40km it will be doing more damage thanks to its longer range than on TQ. It is not getting any nerf at all to its guns firepower.
When in bastion the kronos will project blasters all the way out to 90-100km.
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 15:11:00 -
[7478] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote:baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote: Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.
Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work. Yes, it's better than a T1 mega at almost 10 times the price unless the enemy has a Griffin. Or you fly a 7 low 3 mid Kronos(Mandatory mid for ECCM to get it on par with normal t1 ships) It's also A LOT slower than the Mega. It's ass. and at 40km it deals less damage than it does on live. Oh. and it's stationary if you want to use this bastion stuff. which will be so stacking nerfed on ALL the Marauders they might aswell just take away the bonus. Good job. (Sarcasm) Cost is never factored into game balance. It also will not be needing ECCM for fleet work and at 40km it will be doing more damage thanks to its longer range than on TQ. It is not getting any nerf at all to its guns firepower. When in bastion the kronos will project blasters all the way out to 90-100km.
It's losing a sentry drone.
And noone will fly these in any sorts of pvp fleets.
Esp not "sniping fleets"
And no, it won't be doing more damage at 40km.
Go be bad elsewhere.
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8503
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 15:15:00 -
[7479] - Quote
Doed wrote:
It's losing a sentry drone.
And? In most fleets I never get to launch drones anyway.
Doed wrote:And noone will fly these in any sorts of pvp fleets.
I sure will be for mega fleets and most likely for cruiser and perhaps even frig fleets.
Doed wrote:Esp not "sniping fleets" Rail fit mega fleets it will be better.
Doed wrote:And no, it won't be doing more damage at 40km.
Go be bad elsewhere.
Blaster fit it will be doing a lot more damage at 40km.
Before calling other people bad you should probably test these ships before commenting on them because you clearly haven't |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 15:27:00 -
[7480] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote:
It's losing a sentry drone.
And? In most fleets I never get to launch drones anyway. Doed wrote:And noone will fly these in any sorts of pvp fleets. I sure will be for mega fleets and most likely for cruiser and perhaps even frig fleets. Doed wrote:Esp not "sniping fleets" Rail fit mega fleets it will be better. Doed wrote:And no, it won't be doing more damage at 40km.
Go be bad elsewhere.
Blaster fit it will be doing a lot more damage at 40km. Before calling other people bad you should probably test these ships before commenting on them because you clearly haven't
So with blasters which will be **** at 40km with the crappy ass stacking penalties it will do more damage?
HOLY **** THAT IS AMAZINGLY GOOD!
They got some buffs, but they also got some rather silly nerfs.
Fact remains that bastion just giving stacking penalized bonuses that doesn\t really allow some of the ships to reach decent range is just crap. Torp golem will remain inferior to a CNR unless there\s a million ships jamming. NPC defends will hurt the CM golems dps too much. And vargur won\t be able to reach far enough with AC\s to warrant using it.
Remove stacking penalties and tweak the bonuses some to make Torp Golem and AC Vargur worth flying.
Oh yeah. and Vargur and Kronos speed nerf is simply pathetic. they\re barely faster than the other 2. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8503
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 15:33:00 -
[7481] - Quote
Doed wrote:
So with blasters which will be **** at 40km with the crappy ass stacking penalties it will do more damage?
HOLY **** THAT IS AMAZINGLY GOOD!
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Its 10% better outside of bastion per level. That is a big buff to the range of blasters and their damage projection. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
195
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 16:03:00 -
[7482] - Quote
Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure
If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc
I mean, I can see myself putting a bunch of tractors and salvagers in the hold, together with a deployable tractor module, put that out right away to start pulling, then when everything is dead refit to "full Noctis" to do a fast cleanup.
If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.
Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 16:19:00 -
[7483] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote: They will not do tracking on pali because it will become basically better nightmare.
Yes, if you want tracking, use nightmare. If they do this to paladin paladin will be better then nightmare. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 16:27:00 -
[7484] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure
If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc
I mean, I can see myself putting a bunch of tractors and salvagers in the hold, together with a deployable tractor module, put that out right away to start pulling, then when everything is dead refit to "full Noctis" to do a fast cleanup.
If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.
Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.
arent they 2 different structures? one for tractor one for refit? |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 18:07:00 -
[7485] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure
If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.
Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.
Yes it's like a normal refitting service on titan, pos or carrier. So yes, you can refit drones as you wish.
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 19:22:00 -
[7486] - Quote
The mobile depo, as i have tested it, invalidates 90% of all the whiners in this thread.
gf ccp. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 20:02:00 -
[7487] - Quote
When do we get T-2 bastion module ?
As we have T-2 Siege and T-2 Triage modules it would be fair to get T-2 Bastion module as well. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 20:24:00 -
[7488] - Quote
Spc One wrote:When do we get T-2 bastion module ?
As we have T-2 Siege and T-2 Triage modules it would be fair to get T-2 Bastion module as well.
There are a lot of modules that don't have T2 versions. |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
8
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 21:18:00 -
[7489] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:The mobile depo, as i have tested it, invalidates 90% of all the whiners in this thread.
gf ccp.
I would love to take your word for that, but you posted earlier in this thread such terrible mission completion times (with which you seemed to be content with), that objectively your assessment of the situation isn't worth much. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 21:24:00 -
[7490] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:The mobile depo, as i have tested it, invalidates 90% of all the whiners in this thread.
gf ccp. I would love to take your word for that, but you posted earlier in this thread such terrible mission completion times (with which you seemed to be content with), that objectively your assessment of the situation isn't worth much. Oh really? Strange, I can't seem to remember you posting completion times with isk made. I must have missed it, mind linking it to me? I'm sure we can compare income and completion times and come to an agreement.
Also if you don't mind please share your experiences with the mobile depo while we're at it. I've found some interesting uses for it and am curious to see what a more experienced player has made of it. |
|

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
8
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 21:30:00 -
[7491] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:still "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things??? drop it, enough.. it is NOT a specific fitting rebalance, it is fckn broken marauder(T2) class rebalance.. and after all, they are now having better hull and bonuses.. and plus a bastion module for only marauders, it is all up to you "use or not"..
I am sorry, but when
1. some ships can take full advantage of bastion mode and some can't 2. some ships are affected by the speed nerf and some aren't 3. some ships get actual boosts that matter while others don't
then there something has to be wrong.
See, it's not 'just "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things'. The issues go way deeper than that. You can't redesign a ship class around a concept that only benefits one (maybe 2). |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:05:00 -
[7492] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Julie Thorne wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:The mobile depo, as i have tested it, invalidates 90% of all the whiners in this thread.
gf ccp. I would love to take your word for that, but you posted earlier in this thread such terrible mission completion times (with which you seemed to be content with), that objectively your assessment of the situation isn't worth much. Oh really? Strange, I can't seem to remember you posting completion times with isk made. I must have missed it, mind linking it to me? I'm sure we can compare income and completion times and come to an agreement.
My mission completion times for the missions I do from your list (Gone Berserk, AE, Worlds Collide (Angel)) are HALF of your posted times on TQ(seriously). In high sec my LP rewards are 18-36% higher than yours. I don't record loot&salvage, as I feel it is a waste of time. I would rather just do more missions instead.
Anyone can tell you, that your times are not good (to put it mildly). Therefore you telling us that everything will be fine, has to be taken with a grain of salt. Sorry.
Nonetheless I appreciate the time you put into recording all that data. It was quite helpful, just not the way you imagined it would be. (Now I know for sure that immobile Vargurs are terrible.)
Anize Oramara wrote:Also if you don't mind please share your experiences with the mobile depo while we're at it. I've found some interesting uses for it and am curious to see what a more experienced player has made of it.
I mostly think that they would be way to situational to have any significant impact. Using them is more bothersome than refitting in stations, so stations would be preferred. Sure, in some missions it may make sense to drop let's say a TC for an MJD for a room, and then swap it back, but I am not sure it is really worth the hassle. Most missions are just too short for that.
Also I want to point 2 things out:
1. Any ship will be able to use the new structures. Meaning the Mach will get significantly better, while the Vargur will stay roughly the same. 2. Some marauders get much more out of the changes than others. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:20:00 -
[7493] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote:
So with blasters which will be **** at 40km with the crappy ass stacking penalties it will do more damage?
HOLY **** THAT IS AMAZINGLY GOOD!
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level) Its 10% better outside of bastion per level. That is a big buff to the range of blasters and their damage projection. Doed wrote: Fact remains that bastion just giving stacking penalized bonuses that doesn\t really allow some of the ships to reach decent range is just crap.
90-100km blasters is crap now?
it's not 10% better. you have to count your optimal range aswell and dropoff through falloff. if Bastion didn't get stacking nerfed so you could run 3 tracking comps and bastion for range on top of those bonuses it'd be something
It appears to me that you are terrible at math, and you have no idea how falloff mechanics work.
Oh. and I want to see your 90-100km Blaster Fit. I really do.
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
976
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:27:00 -
[7494] - Quote
Are 100km blasters going to hit at 100km for anything worth bothering with? |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:13:00 -
[7495] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:still "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things??? drop it, enough.. it is NOT a specific fitting rebalance, it is fckn broken marauder(T2) class rebalance.. and after all, they are now having better hull and bonuses.. and plus a bastion module for only marauders, it is all up to you "use or not"..
I am sorry, but when 1. some ships can take full advantage of bastion mode and some can't 2. some ships are affected by the speed nerf and some aren't 3. some ships get actual boosts that matter while others don't then there something has to be wrong. See, it's not 'just "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things'. The issues go way deeper than that. You can't redesign a ship class around a concept that only benefits one (maybe 2).
you seem a bit obsessive fan of one of those two that you think they wont get "any(or not enough)" bonus from the rebalancing..
also some will get more, some will get less bonus from Bastion, it may be just for "rebalance" between.. after all, it is not permanent, if it was still broken, it would be fixed by Developers, eventually..
Do Not Mix Things, please.. its not laser vs projectile etc.. it should be "Current X" vs "New X", to see things crystal clear. |

Dominus Alterai
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
77
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:26:00 -
[7496] - Quote
So, not usre if this has been asked already or if anyone can answer this, but does the 70% MJD reactivation reduction stack with the MJD skill bonus? I mean, being able to jump around every few seconds seems like it might be a bit broken.
That being said, Arty Vargur sniper fleets might become a thing. |

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
201
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:41:00 -
[7497] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:So, not usre if this has been asked already or if anyone can answer this, but does the 70% MJD reactivation reduction stack with the MJD skill bonus? I mean, being able to jump around every few seconds seems like it might be a bit broken.
That being said, Arty Vargur sniper fleets might become a thing.
The skill and the marauder bonus effect two different stats. MJD bonus effects the time it takes to actually jump after the module is activated (~9 sec with level 5), the 70% bonus from the hull reduces the cooldown perio between the last jump and when the MJD can be re-activated. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:47:00 -
[7498] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Tsukinosuke wrote:still "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things??? drop it, enough.. it is NOT a specific fitting rebalance, it is fckn broken marauder(T2) class rebalance.. and after all, they are now having better hull and bonuses.. and plus a bastion module for only marauders, it is all up to you "use or not"..
I am sorry, but when 1. some ships can take full advantage of bastion mode and some can't 2. some ships are affected by the speed nerf and some aren't 3. some ships get actual boosts that matter while others don't then there something has to be wrong. See, it's not 'just "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things'. The issues go way deeper than that. You can't redesign a ship class around a concept that only benefits one (maybe 2). So one second people are complaining about how CCP is homogenizing ships and the next moment they are complaining about how different they are.
Can we get some kind of consensus here about which sky it is exactly that is falling? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
976
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:54:00 -
[7499] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: So one second people are complaining about how CCP is homogenizing ships and the next moment they are complaining about how different they are.
Can we get some kind of consensus here about which sky it is exactly that is falling?
I for one remain soundly in the "Homgenization is bad, unless it's milk" camp.
I do enjoy homogenized milk. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 00:03:00 -
[7500] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:My mission completion times for the missions I do from your list (Gone Berserk, AE, Worlds Collide (Angel)) are HALF of your posted times on TQ(seriously). In high sec my LP rewards are 18-36% higher than yours. I don't record loot&salvage, as I feel it is a waste of time. I would rather just do more missions instead.
Aaah I see, you 'feel' it is a waste of time. If only you had solid numbers to back that 'feelings' up. I have solid numbers but without you having solid numbers I just can not corroborate your erm... 'feelings' on the matter and will have to defer to hard numbers (as eft kiddies like to chant their mantra).
Quote: Anyone can tell you, that your times are not good (to put it mildly). Therefore you telling us that everything will be fine, has to be taken with a grain of salt. Sorry.
Well that's simply because I don't run missions the same way as you. Mission completion times are ONLY there to help measure your isk/h. That's what everyone cares about end of the day correct? Or am I missing some huge secret? I honestly don't care how you get your isk, be it LP/Reward blitzing because you have lv5 social skills (I do not) or salvage/bounty but I HAVE given you my isk/h numbers. Man up and give me numbers too or I will have to take your assertions on the matter with a bit MORE than just a grain of salt.
Quote: Nonetheless I appreciate the time you put into recording all that data. It was quite helpful, just not the way you imagined it would be. (Now I know for sure that immobile Vargurs are terrible.)
Again without numbers to compare them to your interpretations are based on feelings and not on concrete factual numbers. That was the whole point of the data right? That's why everyone asked for it? Soon as I get it for you guys suddenly it's just deemed inferior without any evidence.
Quote:Anize Oramara wrote:Also if you don't mind please share your experiences with the mobile depo while we're at it. I've found some interesting uses for it and am curious to see what a more experienced player has made of it. I mostly think that they would be way to situational to have any significant impact. Using them is more bothersome than refitting in stations, so (EDIT) refitting at stations between missions would be preferred. Sure, in some missions it may make sense to drop let's say a TC for an MJD for a room, and then swap it back, but I am not sure it is really worth the hassle. Most missions are just too short for that. Also I want to point 3 things out: 1. Any ship will be able to use the new structures. Meaning the Mach will get significantly better, while the Vargur will stay roughly the same. 2. Some marauders get much more out of the marauder changes than others. EDIT: 3. You can't use mobile depots while MWDing. Stationary ships get more out of them. Am I the only one who sees a pattern here? I'm interested in how you want to use the mobile depo that takes 45 seconds to deploy on a platform as mobile as the Mach? Isn't the whole point of the Mach to as soon as you're in pocket fly towards the enemy battleships/triggers at warp 9.9 or maneuvering to get transversal down? It works with the marauders because of bastion.
I used it particularly well in the bonus room of AE for example. Soon as I drop into the pocket I lock the cruise launchers and activate my MJD. I end up really close to the enemy ships and turrets (30km) in 9 seconds. I then activate bastion, plop down my depo and kill the cruise launchers. Soon as depo deployed switch out teh MJD for more tank and viola I got my 3 TCs on, got my 3 module tank running and I am killing stuff as they rush towards me. It's a particularly good example of it.
Another one (and I know you blits this one yawn) cargo delivery. MWD to container, drop depo and replace MWD with a TC/Tank and kill all the serps.
That's been my experience with the depo. Another good place will prolly be gurista assault (man hated that mission).
Think outside the box, and get me my damn numbers. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 00:08:00 -
[7501] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: So one second people are complaining about how CCP is homogenizing ships and the next moment they are complaining about how different they are.
Can we get some kind of consensus here about which sky it is exactly that is falling?
I for one remain soundly in the "Homgenization is bad, unless it's milk" camp. I do enjoy homogenized milk. Ah yes the curse of not having a language as your native tongue. I'm sure the meaning got through to the astute. My browser can tell me if a word is spelled correctly but it can not tell me if the word I'm using is the correct one 
(homogeneous for those who haven't figured it out ) |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 00:26:00 -
[7502] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote: 1. Any ship will be able to use the new structures. Meaning the Mach will get significantly better, while the Vargur will stay roughly the same. 2. Some marauders get much more out of the marauder changes than others. EDIT: 3. You can't use mobile depots while MWDing. Stationary ships get more out of them. Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?
"3" invalidates "1" am i wrong? prolly i couldnt get things right.. machariel vs vargur, isnt it a joke? fitting a ship glass-cannon doesnt mean OverPower.. and also machariel is an option for who doesnt like "new" stationary style combat.. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 00:37:00 -
[7503] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:Julie Thorne wrote: 1. Any ship will be able to use the new structures. Meaning the Mach will get significantly better, while the Vargur will stay roughly the same. 2. Some marauders get much more out of the marauder changes than others. EDIT: 3. You can't use mobile depots while MWDing. Stationary ships get more out of them. Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?
"3" invalidates "1"  am i wrong? prolly i couldnt get things right.. machariel vs vargur, isnt it a joke? fitting a ship glass-cannon doesnt mean OverPower.. and also machariel is an option for who doesnt like "new" stationary style combat.. Indeed, why WOULD anyone blitz misisons in a vargur instead of using a macharial if speed was that important? Doesn't the mach have far more speed and DPS than even TQ marauder?
(aimed at whiners)So many mixed messages! Do you blitz or don't you? Why do you fly the Vargur if you blitz? if you don't blitz and fly the Vargur why is the data I supplied not valid? If you blitz and use a Mach why are you even asking for Vargur numbers or for that matter even CARE abut the marauders?
Well? |

stoicfaux
3334
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 02:10:00 -
[7504] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure
If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc
Yes and no. If you use the Mobile Depot to refit, the modules have to be off or not reloading (i.e. not cycling.) Even then, some marauders have some issues: * Golem: rigs may or may be valid for torp/cruise switches, * Vargurs: Artillery has a long cooldown, which could make switching to ACs annoying/impractical * Kronos: Still has to deal with 5 second reloads
However, Paladin with its instant ammo swapping will probably be able to take advantage of swapping out guns mid-mission or even mid-fight. Kronos should be able to as well.
From what I've seen of the Mobile Depot so far: * saved fittings do not work * you can fit from your cargo bay, there's no need to put items into the Mobile Depot first, * you do NOT have to wait for the Mobile Depot to anchor before changing your fittings, * you have to manually drag and drop modules, ammo, group guns, etc. * you have to wait out cycle times (RoF cycles, ammo reloading) on a module before you can remove that module * you can refit while bastion is active
Finally, given the huge increase in fittings, a single non-specialized fit can fit either short or long range weapons with ease. Meaning, you don't need to worry about using PG rigs to swap between ACs and Artillery or Pulse and Tachyons.
If someone works out a macro to quickly swap the Paladin between Pulse and Tachyon lasers, then the Paladin will be the Queen Batshit Insane Recipient of the Greatest Buffs in Rubicon (Assuming You Don't Care About the Loss of the Web Bonus) Award. IMHO.
tl;dr - All hail the Pulse Tachyon Paladin! |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1450
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 02:33:00 -
[7505] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure
If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc
Yes and no. If you use the Mobile Depot to refit, the modules have to be off or not reloading (i.e. not cycling.) Even then, some marauders have some issues: * Golem: rigs may or may be valid for torp/cruise switches, * Vargurs: Artillery has a long cooldown, which could make switching to ACs annoying/impractical * Kronos: Still has to deal with 5 second reloads However, Paladin with its instant ammo swapping will probably be able to take advantage of swapping out guns mid-mission or even mid-fight. Kronos should be able to as well. From what I've seen of the Mobile Depot so far: * saved fittings do not work * you can fit from your cargo bay, there's no need to put items into the Mobile Depot first, * you do NOT have to wait for the Mobile Depot to anchor before changing your fittings, * you have to manually drag and drop modules, ammo, group guns, etc. * you have to wait out cycle times (RoF cycles, ammo reloading) on a module before you can remove that module * you can refit while bastion is active Finally, given the huge increase in fittings, a single non-specialized fit can fit either short or long range weapons with ease. Meaning, you don't need to worry about using PG rigs to swap between ACs and Artillery or Pulse and Tachyons. If someone works out a macro to quickly swap the Paladin between Pulse and Tachyon lasers, then the Paladin will be the Queen Batshit Insane Recipient of the Greatest Buffs in Rubicon (Assuming You Don't Care About the Loss of the Web Bonus) Award. IMHO. tl;dr - All hail the Pulse Tachyon Paladin!
You know, that is an interesting PvE concept. I am pretty certain someone will do it.
But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. (I won't even bother discussing how the ship is done in VG incursions. That discussion has been put to bed) |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 04:07:00 -
[7506] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:stoicfaux wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure
If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc
Yes and no. If you use the Mobile Depot to refit, the modules have to be off or not reloading (i.e. not cycling.) Even then, some marauders have some issues: * Golem: rigs may or may be valid for torp/cruise switches, * Vargurs: Artillery has a long cooldown, which could make switching to ACs annoying/impractical * Kronos: Still has to deal with 5 second reloads However, Paladin with its instant ammo swapping will probably be able to take advantage of swapping out guns mid-mission or even mid-fight. Kronos should be able to as well. From what I've seen of the Mobile Depot so far: * saved fittings do not work * you can fit from your cargo bay, there's no need to put items into the Mobile Depot first, * you do NOT have to wait for the Mobile Depot to anchor before changing your fittings, * you have to manually drag and drop modules, ammo, group guns, etc. * you have to wait out cycle times (RoF cycles, ammo reloading) on a module before you can remove that module * you can refit while bastion is active Finally, given the huge increase in fittings, a single non-specialized fit can fit either short or long range weapons with ease. Meaning, you don't need to worry about using PG rigs to swap between ACs and Artillery or Pulse and Tachyons. If someone works out a macro to quickly swap the Paladin between Pulse and Tachyon lasers, then the Paladin will be the Queen Batshit Insane Recipient of the Greatest Buffs in Rubicon (Assuming You Don't Care About the Loss of the Web Bonus) Award. IMHO. tl;dr - All hail the Pulse Tachyon Paladin! You know, that is an interesting PvE concept. I am pretty certain someone will do it. But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. (I won't even bother discussing how the ship is done in VG incursions. That discussion has been put to bed)
most bs dont have web bonus and they are fine for missions
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
978
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 04:48:00 -
[7507] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:most bs dont have web bonus and they are fine for missions
Dinsdale is one of those pilots who demands a web. He finds it difficult to shoot incursion rats without one and infuriating that anyone dare suggest he try. Someone, please web Dinsdale- Err, I mean. Give him a web.
Note: If his post history backs up what I'm saying, is it really a personal attack? |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8510
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 07:20:00 -
[7508] - Quote
Doed wrote:
it's not 10% better. you have to count your optimal range aswell and dropoff through falloff. if Bastion didn't get stacking nerfed so you could run 3 tracking comps and bastion for range on top of those bonuses it'd be something
It appears to me that you are terrible at math, and you have no idea how falloff mechanics work.
Oh. and I want to see your 90-100km Blaster Fit. I really do.
That is a hull bonus not a bastion bonus.
Again, you would know if you had bothered to test the ship. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8510
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 07:28:00 -
[7509] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Are 100km blasters going to hit at 100km for anything worth bothering with?
Frigates, interdictors, light cruisers all suffer. In pve it will rip everything apart. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 11:23:00 -
[7510] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote:
it's not 10% better. you have to count your optimal range aswell and dropoff through falloff. if Bastion didn't get stacking nerfed so you could run 3 tracking comps and bastion for range on top of those bonuses it'd be something
It appears to me that you are terrible at math, and you have no idea how falloff mechanics work.
Oh. and I want to see your 90-100km Blaster Fit. I really do.
That is a hull bonus not a bastion bonus. Again, you would know if you had bothered to test the ship.
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Wow really, I didn't know! ' Let's say it again then in a more detailed manner, since you are clearly not very bright!
10% falloff is not 10% more range. it's 10% more falloff. halfway through your falloff your falloff starts becoming ****.
3 range scripted TC's before bastion on the new Kronos with falloff bonus from HULL included.
18(optimal) + 51(falloff) range with Null. 19 + 54 with Bastion instead of 22-23 + 63-64 km falloff it would have with Bastion NOT stacking penalized. which would actually make it worth fitting blasters for more than 2 lvl 4 missions or 2 hubs in 0.0
Bastion on top of those 3 TC's take it to 19+54, that's a downright pathetic increase. Past 46km this isn't really going to be a whole lot of damage. at 40km rails do more damage anyway, and rails will kill your ****** cruisers and frigs ALOT easier than your "lol 2% of the chance I can hit at 100km with my blasters! <100 dps! yeah!"
With falloff bonus that's about 24% more effective range, not 50%(10% more range per level as you claimed) |
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:35:00 -
[7511] - Quote
Doed wrote:Let's say it again then in a more detailed manner, since you are clearly not very bright! Let's say it in very simple terms, since you have clearly not bothered to try the ship on test server.
Blaster Kronos on SiSi performs better than Rail Kronos on TQ in EVERY mission I could compare.
Edit: in case you are talking about PVP only, I know it's not the same as PVE but still it should give pretty good indicator of force projection and application. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:37:00 -
[7512] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Doed wrote:Let's say it again then in a more detailed manner, since you are clearly not very bright! Let's say it in very simple terms, since you have clearly not bothered to try the ship on test server. Blaster Kronos on SiSi performs better than Rail Kronos on TQ in EVERY mission I could compare.
Tried and tested. was disappointed.
Works well for Damsel in Distress though. which was already good with blasters.
Oh, and Vengeance it's alot better
But that's it. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:40:00 -
[7513] - Quote
Doed wrote:Tried and tested. was disappointed. Since to me it performs already better it must mean either you didn't try hard enough on SiSi or that I fly it very badly on TQ. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:45:00 -
[7514] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. Have you tried to use cheaper, tech2 version?
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:51:00 -
[7515] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Doed wrote:Tried and tested. was disappointed. Since to me it performs already better it must mean either you didn't try hard enough on SiSi or that I fly it very badly on TQ.
Fit on TQ?
Fit on Sisi? |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 14:52:00 -
[7516] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. Have you tried to use cheaper, tech2 version?
Paladin is REALLY good after this change, Paladin being so good is the reason I dislike how lame the Kronos is in comparison. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
984
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:00:00 -
[7517] - Quote
Doed wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. Have you tried to use cheaper, tech2 version? Paladin is REALLY good after this change, Paladin being so good is the reason I dislike how lame the Kronos is in comparison.
Paladin might be better with that optimal bonus changed to tracking and the bastion bonuses unstacked. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:14:00 -
[7518] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Doed wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. Have you tried to use cheaper, tech2 version? Paladin is REALLY good after this change, Paladin being so good is the reason I dislike how lame the Kronos is in comparison. Paladin might be better with that optimal bonus changed to tracking and the bastion bonuses unstacked. If you add tracking to paladin, nightmare looses. Tracking is for Nightmare, as it should be better as a pirate ship then paladin.
Paladin with tracking bonus will be insane and alot better than nightmare. Good bonuses like tracking are only for pirate class battleships. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:18:00 -
[7519] - Quote
Doed wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Doed wrote:Tried and tested. was disappointed. Since to me it performs already better it must mean either you didn't try hard enough on SiSi or that I fly it very badly on TQ. Fit on TQ? Fit on Sisi? Nothing too fancy.
4 guns DED repper Reactive hardener (+another hardener on TQ) 3 magstabs Burst Rig II 2x TC TE optionally AB MJD on SiSi
Fill the rest of the slots to taste |

poppeteer
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:34:00 -
[7520] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:what I am most interested in though is ofcourse the possible usesin c5. itd be great for example to clear high end gas and ore sites without needing a carrier and even clearing cruisers in combat sites. everytjing I know tells me that itd work great but I will want to test it on sisi. This is already possible. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8512
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:45:00 -
[7521] - Quote
Doed wrote:baltec1 wrote:Doed wrote:
it's not 10% better. you have to count your optimal range aswell and dropoff through falloff. if Bastion didn't get stacking nerfed so you could run 3 tracking comps and bastion for range on top of those bonuses it'd be something
It appears to me that you are terrible at math, and you have no idea how falloff mechanics work.
Oh. and I want to see your 90-100km Blaster Fit. I really do.
That is a hull bonus not a bastion bonus. Again, you would know if you had bothered to test the ship. 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level) Wow really, I didn't know! ' Let's say it again then in a more detailed manner, since you are clearly not very bright! 10% falloff is not 10% more range. it's 10% more falloff. halfway through your falloff your falloff starts becoming ****. 3 range scripted TC's before bastion on the new Kronos with falloff bonus from HULL included. 18(optimal) + 51(falloff) range with Null. 19 + 54 with Bastion instead of 22-23 + 63-64 km falloff it would have with Bastion NOT stacking penalized. which would actually make it worth fitting blasters for more than 2 lvl 4 missions or 2 hubs in 0.0 Bastion on top of those 3 TC's take it to 19+54, that's a downright pathetic increase. Past 46km this isn't really going to be a whole lot of damage. at 40km rails do more damage anyway, and rails will kill your ****** cruisers and frigs ALOT easier than your "lol 2% of the chance I can hit at 100km with my blasters! <100 dps! yeah!" With falloff bonus that's about 24% more effective range, not 50%(10% more range per level as you claimed)
Get off EFT and get testing it in game. |

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
198
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:49:00 -
[7522] - Quote
So can I use the mobile depot to load missiles instantly? As in not needing to wait the 10 seconds or whatever it is? |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:50:00 -
[7523] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:So can I use the mobile depot to load missiles instantly? As in not needing to wait the 10 seconds or whatever it is? Yes.
Same thing works if you have a titan or carrier near you. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:53:00 -
[7524] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Doed wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Doed wrote:Tried and tested. was disappointed. Since to me it performs already better it must mean either you didn't try hard enough on SiSi or that I fly it very badly on TQ. Fit on TQ? Fit on Sisi? Nothing too fancy. 4 guns DED repper Reactive hardener (+another hardener on TQ) 3 magstabs Burst Rig II 2x TC TE optionally AB MJD on SiSi Fill the rest of the slots to taste
[Kronos, Live] Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer Damage Control II (removed for CPR and another TC/Sebo on certain missions) Armor Thermic Hardener II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Drone Link Augmentor II
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Warden II x3
Swap out hardner for CPR and add MJD for rails or another TC or Sebo for Buzz Kill etc for sisi
5% hardwirings, so 1007 dps with rails at 40km on live, 1076 ms with mwd on. MWD and repper were cheap when I bougt them like 2 years ago so not sure I'd sling out for a new set if I'd end up losing them.
[Kronos, Sisi Blasters 3TC] Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Damage Control II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Drone Link Augmentor II Bastion Thingy Module
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Swap DCU for CPR and add TE when MJD is needed (swap out TC for the MJD obv)
Deals same damage at rails up to about 33-34km, at that point rails deal more damage, Blasters simply don't reach far enough to warrant using them on anything but a very few missions
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
57
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 15:58:00 -
[7525] - Quote
poppeteer wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:what I am most interested in though is ofcourse the possible usesin c5. itd be great for example to clear high end gas and ore sites without needing a carrier and even clearing cruisers in combat sites. everytjing I know tells me that itd work great but I will want to test it on sisi. This is already possible. Pretty old post t quote but to clarify, what I meant there was solo. What ship can you solo clear 4 C5 battleships that neut? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:22:00 -
[7526] - Quote
Doed wrote: [Kronos, Live][....] [Kronos, Sisi Blasters 3TC][....]
Since you seem to joined this discussion quite recently you may have missed my posts where I state that I'd rather compare performance, not analyze stats and attributes. That said, your fits look solid with one caveat though: on SiSi you are supposed to use MJD. Not every time of course but when targets are at, say, 75km or up then you are better off with than without.
I repeat, while blasters can hit at 100km it doesn't mean you are supposed to shoot at that range. You are supposed to MJD and shoot up close. The art part comes in learning how to slowboat/AB/MWD between those jumps so they are most effective.
And earlier you mentioned you are disappointed. What results did you get so you came to that conclusion? |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
63
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:25:00 -
[7527] - Quote
Spc One wrote:FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:So can I use the mobile depot to load missiles instantly? As in not needing to wait the 10 seconds or whatever it is? Yes. Same thing works if you have a titan or carrier near you.
Not true, not at least last week when I tested it. |

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
202
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:36:00 -
[7528] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:Spc One wrote:FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:So can I use the mobile depot to load missiles instantly? As in not needing to wait the 10 seconds or whatever it is? Yes. Same thing works if you have a titan or carrier near you. Not true, not at least last week when I tested it.
3rd reply to go with majority? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
985
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:59:00 -
[7529] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Doed wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus. Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. Have you tried to use cheaper, tech2 version? Paladin is REALLY good after this change, Paladin being so good is the reason I dislike how lame the Kronos is in comparison. Paladin might be better with that optimal bonus changed to tracking and the bastion bonuses unstacked. If you add tracking to paladin, nightmare looses. Tracking is for Nightmare, as it should be better as a pirate ship then paladin. Paladin with tracking bonus will be insane and alot better than nightmare. Good bonuses like tracking are only for pirate class battleships.
If tracking bonuses are reserved for Pirate ships, then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Not only that, but both ships have a bonus that's identical to their pirate counterpart - Vargur and Machariel share a falloff bonus while Kronos and Vindicator share a tracking bonus.
The Nightmare is getting a rebalance anyway, along with the Machariel and Vindicator (and the Rattlesnake). I think the Nightmare is okay having its toes stepped on for a little bit, especially if it makes the current balancing job more successful. |

poppeteer
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:04:00 -
[7530] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Pretty old post t quote but to clarify, what I meant there was solo. What ship can you solo clear 4 C5 battleships that neut? I know. Your question, expanded with sleeper attributes, should assist you. Which ships? Have at it and find out. PM if you hit a wall. |
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:07:00 -
[7531] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus.
Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:08:00 -
[7532] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Doed wrote: [Kronos, Live][....] [Kronos, Sisi Blasters 3TC][....]
Since you seem to joined this discussion quite recently you may have missed my posts where I state that I'd rather compare performance, not analyze stats and attributes. That said, your fits look solid with one caveat though: on SiSi you are supposed to use MJD. Not every time of course but when targets are at, say, 75km or up then you are better off with than without. I repeat, while blasters can hit at 100km it doesn't mean you are supposed to shoot at that range. You are supposed to MJD and shoot up close. The art part comes in learning how to slowboat/AB/MWD between those jumps so they are most effective. And earlier you mentioned you are disappointed. What results did you get so you came to that conclusion?
Swap DCU for CPR and add TE when MJD is needed (swap out TC for the MJD obv) (Taken from the post about fits I just posted)
rail fit dumps 1 hardner for CPR and adds another TC (MJD when needed) |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:08:00 -
[7533] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:Spc One wrote:FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:So can I use the mobile depot to load missiles instantly? As in not needing to wait the 10 seconds or whatever it is? Yes. Same thing works if you have a titan or carrier near you. Not true, not at least last week when I tested it. 3rd reply to go with majority? I just tested: loading ammo via depot's fitting services still incurs ammo loading timer. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
985
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:10:00 -
[7534] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus. Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it.
Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:11:00 -
[7535] - Quote
Doed wrote:Swap DCU for CPR and add TE when MJD is needed (swap out TC for the MJD obv) (Taken from the post about fits I just posted)
rail fit dumps 1 hardner for CPR and adds another TC (MJD when needed) I know how to fit MJD into the ship, thank you very much. I was writing about how to use it. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8514
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:12:00 -
[7536] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus. Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it. Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it.
Then you make the nightmare pointless and the paladin overpowered. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
63
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:25:00 -
[7537] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
3rd reply to go with majority?
Double checked on SiSi just now, there is no way to bypass the reload mechanic, any kind of load/reload will trigger the 10s reload process when using a mobile depot, be it ammo from the depot or your ship cargo bay. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:30:00 -
[7538] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus. Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it. Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it. Then you make the nightmare pointless and the paladin overpowered.
Nightmare pointless? you can fly it so early and switch to paladin when you have the skills. Isn't that the major advantage from T1 -> Faction -> T2. You have T2 potential at higher price with less skills. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:44:00 -
[7539] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus. Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it. Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it. Maybe paladin should have both bonuses optimal and tracking. That said it would look like this:
5% to capacitor capacity 7.5% to optimal range 7.5% to tracking
7.5% to repairer 5% to damage
Good enough ? |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:54:00 -
[7540] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Nightmare pointless? you can fly it so early and switch to paladin when you have the skills. Isn't that the major advantage from T1 -> Faction -> T2. You have T2 potential at higher price with less skills. No. "Balancing" factor of skill requirements has exactly the same value as the price: nothing after you have and can fly both ships.
The question is, when you have them, do you have valid reasons to use each ship? |
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8515
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 18:00:00 -
[7541] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:
Nightmare pointless? you can fly it so early and switch to paladin when you have the skills. Isn't that the major advantage from T1 -> Faction -> T2. You have T2 potential at higher price with less skills.
No its not.
The whole point of teircide is to make all ships viable. |

stoicfaux
3334
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 18:26:00 -
[7542] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
3rd reply to go with majority?
Double checked on SiSi just now, there is no way to bypass the reload mechanic, any kind of load/reload will trigger the 10s reload process when using a mobile depot, be it with ammo from the depot or your ship cargo bay. Ditto. Plus if a module is in the middle of a cycle/timer, you can't remove the module from your ship. So a Bastion module in the middle of its one minute active cycle cannot be removed.
However, laser weapons don't have a reload, so go nuts swapping between pulse and beam lasers as needed.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 19:11:00 -
[7543] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:poppeteer wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:what I am most interested in though is ofcourse the possible usesin c5. itd be great for example to clear high end gas and ore sites without needing a carrier and even clearing cruisers in combat sites. everytjing I know tells me that itd work great but I will want to test it on sisi. This is already possible. Pretty old post t quote but to clarify, what I meant there was solo. What ship can you solo clear 4 C5 battleships that neut?
Vargur. Double ASB Vargur with passive ressist modules can solo any neut setup.
Edit: Before Rubicon |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
990
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:52:00 -
[7544] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
Nightmare pointless? you can fly it so early and switch to paladin when you have the skills. Isn't that the major advantage from T1 -> Faction -> T2. You have T2 potential at higher price with less skills.
No its not. The whole point of teircide is to make all ships viable.
You say that as if Pirate ships have been rebalanced yet.
Let's not forget that a good many T2 ships were rendered allegedly "unviable" because of the Tiericide efforts conducted upon their T1 counterparts. The T2 ships are getting the balance pass to fix that right now. Pirate ships will probably come next because of this, which means any "uselessness" and "unviability" arising from a proper and lasting Marauder rebalance can be fixed at that time. |

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
203
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 21:17:00 -
[7545] - Quote
I was under the impression that the Pirate ships would omfg the dps it burns my eyes! While the Marauders would be more balanced around tank as well as spank with sprinkling of random tractor?
Also thanks to everyone for checking the depot question. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 21:43:00 -
[7546] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:The whole point of teircide is to make all ships viable. You say that as if Pirate ships have been rebalanced yet. Let's not forget that a good many T2 ships were rendered allegedly "unviable" because of the Tiericide efforts conducted upon their T1 counterparts. The T2 ships are getting the balance pass to fix that right now. Pirate ships will probably come next because of this, which means any "uselessness" and "unviability" arising from a proper and lasting Marauder rebalance can be fixed at that time. I find it hard not to agree with this. The problem, as I see it, is that you have to start somewhere, somehow, and then iterate from there. Imagine what hell would break loose if CCP rebalanced each and every ship at the same time (and this is assuming it's within their manpower to do in reasonable time). |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8523
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 02:33:00 -
[7547] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You say that as if Pirate ships have been rebalanced yet.
Let's not forget that a good many T2 ships were rendered allegedly "unviable" because of the Tiericide efforts conducted upon their T1 counterparts. The T2 ships are getting the balance pass to fix that right now. Pirate ships will probably come next because of this, which means any "uselessness" and "unviability" arising from a proper and lasting Marauder rebalance can be fixed at that time.
The nightmare is already a well balanced ship and will not be changing much. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
483
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 02:35:00 -
[7548] - Quote
Marauders: RIP |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
998
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 02:44:00 -
[7549] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You say that as if Pirate ships have been rebalanced yet.
Let's not forget that a good many T2 ships were rendered allegedly "unviable" because of the Tiericide efforts conducted upon their T1 counterparts. The T2 ships are getting the balance pass to fix that right now. Pirate ships will probably come next because of this, which means any "uselessness" and "unviability" arising from a proper and lasting Marauder rebalance can be fixed at that time.
The nightmare is already a well balanced ship and will not be changing much.
Care to cite your internal sources within CCP? |

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
558
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:53:00 -
[7550] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:Nightmare pointless? you can fly it so early and switch to paladin when you have the skills. Isn't that the major advantage from T1 -> Faction -> T2. You have T2 potential at higher price with less skills. Because having some ships as little but "stepping stones" isn't design CCP are getting rid of specifically. Kay, got it.
I mean, entire effort was even called "tiericide" because of getting away from that design.
Also, by the logic of comparing with T1 hulls Paladin shouldn't have damage bonus, amirite?  |
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8527
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 08:28:00 -
[7551] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?
Its not hard to see which of the pirate ships are unbalanced and which are near perfect as is.
Nightmare, bhaalgorn and vindi will not be seeing much change while the mach will be getting a nerf and the rattle will most likely see work done on it. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
683
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 08:56:00 -
[7552] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?
Its not hard to see which of the pirate ships are unbalanced and which are near perfect as is. Nightmare, bhaalgorn and vindi will not be seeing much change while the mach will be getting a nerf and the rattle will most likely see work done on it.
Considerign I see much more vindis in high sec PVP ( I say high sec because pirate BS are very very rare on PVP elesewhere) and in incursiosn than machariels. I would find strange if the vindi doe nto get some fine tunning. Well except for the fact that Rise is super fan of gallente |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
683
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 08:57:00 -
[7553] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus. Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it. Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it. Maybe paladin should have both bonuses optimal and tracking. That said it would look like this: Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking Marauders skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage 100% bonus to range and velocity of Tractor Beams 70% reduction to Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay Can fit Bastion Modules Good enough ? I still think tracking for paladin is overpowered.
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 09:42:00 -
[7554] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Spc One wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses. Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus. Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it. Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it. Maybe paladin should have both bonuses optimal and tracking. That said it would look like this: Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Capacitor capacity 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking Marauders skill bonus per level: 7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage 100% bonus to range and velocity of Tractor Beams 70% reduction to Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay Can fit Bastion Modules Good enough ? I still think tracking for paladin is overpowered. You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull. If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders. The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that?
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
683
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 09:56:00 -
[7555] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that?
Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5.
The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%.
Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 10:00:00 -
[7556] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:
The nightmare is already a well balanced ship and will not be changing much.
Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?
Taken from the Phantasm S+M thread.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
You could also go fly one and see for yourself just how well positioned the Nightmare is against it's peers, most of which have already been re-balanced.
Giving the Paladin a tracking bonus makes it and Nightmare 2 sides of the same coin, pointless really. But then again the amount of retards that want a Shield/Missile pirate faction makes me think that the player base would actually enjoy multiple ships with the same performance  |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 12:05:00 -
[7557] - Quote
Its too close now for updates.
Vargur gets the ****** stick.
Formerly a mobile 'get in close' with autocannons platform (it couldn't fit artillery). Now a slug - same speed as all the others, forced to use artillery. So what do we get?
Appaling Low DPS (way less than 600 - ffs Ishtar craps all over it). Why?
Always fighting in falloff, rarely getting 'coming straight at you in optimal' - because they fire so slowly, and overhit so much we get wasted DPS by enormous amounts. I'm ok with artillery - slow hard whump is ok for a lot of things, but in missioning - its a PITA when you are stuck still.
As with every mission, imagine the panic. Trying to kill the rats - ungrouped guns, but still overhitting anything smaller than a BS by stellar amounts. Take all the wasted DPS into account everyone. You get a crap bonus and a crap dull ship to use it with.
Any promises from CCP on how quickly we can revisit these? The optimal/fallof bonus is painfully 'pro' lasers. Golems get nothing much, and Kronos - well, its meh meh meh. They are so overly homogenised its amazing. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 12:22:00 -
[7558] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that? Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5. The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%. Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.
I very much get it. YOU on the other hand DOES NOT get it. Is it really that complicated for you? really?
It has 8 cap/sec, kronos has 6 cap/sec, others got 5.5 and 5.6.
Amarr ships have always had slightly more cap/sec (apart from t2's etc because whoever desined the t2 command ships etc is a lazy clown)
Currently BEFORE said bonus is applied the Paladin has 33.33% more cap/sec than the Kronos, that's HUGE, that's like an officer cap relay buildt into it. add the 25% cap bonus and it's got 10 cap/sec compared to 6 on the Kronos(yes I am very much aware that this takes up 1 of it's bonuses)
You honestly think it's fine that Paladin would have 66.67% more cap/sec than the Kronos without any bonuses and over 78-80%+ more than Vargur and Golem? Please don't ever post on these forums again if you don't happen to have any clue about what you're saying.
Paladin is BEAST post changes, Golem is lame, Kronos is Lame, and Vargur is ASS.
|

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 13:11:00 -
[7559] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?
Its not hard to see which of the pirate ships are unbalanced and which are near perfect as is. Nightmare, bhaalgorn and vindi will not be seeing much change while the mach will be getting a nerf and the rattle will most likely see work done on it.
why are you all hate machariel too much? maybe the reason is that some used them in AT and kicked your teams ass.. i have an alt flies machariel since nos nerf(RIP my old TFI) and almost same dps with better range and relax tanking and good mobility, machariel gave me..
the only matari philosophy, versatile and fast, hit and run, battleship is machariel, sad but true, matari style combat has been broken ages, maybe since it became only for hisec suicide ganks..
some crazy guys fly them 5-slot shield tanking and choose often mach than vindi, doesnt mean vindi is perfect but machariel not..
only thing i can agree, rattlesnake needs a remake/revamp.. anti-antagonist-á "not a friend of enemy of antagonist" |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1017
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 13:14:00 -
[7560] - Quote
I've never flown in the AT and I can tell you that the Machariel's heading for a nerf. The same thing for the Cynabal and possibly the Dramiel. They're incredibly fast ships with not-so-bad tanks and devastating damage output.
This, however, isn't the pirate rebalancing thread so I'll leave anything else for that thread. |
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 13:15:00 -
[7561] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
Capacitor bonus needs to be here because you have guns that require capacitor so this bonus is required.
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8534
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:25:00 -
[7562] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:
why do you all hate machariel too much? maybe the reason is that some used them in AT and kicked your teams ass.. i have an alt flies machariel since nos nerf(RIP my old TFI) and almost same dps with better range and relax tanking and good mobility, machariel gave me..
the only matari philosophy, versatile and fast, hit and run, battleship is machariel, sad but true, matari style combat has been broken ages, maybe since it became only for hisec suicide ganks..
some crazy guys fly them 5-slot shield tanking and choose often mach than vindi, doesnt mean vindi is perfect but machariel not..
only thing i can agree, rattlesnake needs a remake/revamp..
We don't hate it, we love it. Unfortunately it is simply far too good compared to other battleships. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8534
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:30:00 -
[7563] - Quote
Doed wrote: Kronos is Lame
Oh the irony in your post. |

Jake Sake
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:40:00 -
[7564] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
... It's not FAKE bonus, i still get 25% more cap at level 5. ... Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
688
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:44:00 -
[7565] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that? Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5. The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%. Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers. I very much get it. YOU on the other hand DOES NOT get it. Is it really that complicated for you? really? It has 8 cap/sec, kronos has 6 cap/sec, others got 5.5 and 5.6. Amarr ships have always had slightly more cap/sec (apart from t2's etc because whoever desined the t2 command ships etc is a lazy clown) Currently BEFORE said bonus is applied the Paladin has 33.33% more cap/sec than the Kronos, that's HUGE, that's like an officer cap relay buildt into it. add the 25% cap bonus and it's got 10 cap/sec compared to 6 on the Kronos(yes I am very much aware that this takes up 1 of it's bonuses) You honestly think it's fine that Paladin would have 66.67% more cap/sec than the Kronos without any bonuses and over 78-80%+ more than Vargur and Golem? Please don't ever post on these forums again if you don't happen to have any clue about what you're saying. Paladin is BEAST post changes, Golem is lame, Kronos is Lame, and Vargur is ASS.
Omg .. and HOW much cap TACHYONS use compared to the weapons the Kronos use?
Clearly you are the one that does not have a clue. I play this game for 7 years, and there always were a reason for ammar have FAR more capacitor than other races.
And my line of reasoning was EXACLTY the one CCP gave OFFICIALLY when they removed that SAME CAPACITOR BONUS form the old apoc. YES.. SAME BONUS!!!! That the paladin inherited because It was made BEFORE the APOC was changed and the Capacitor bonus was rolled INTO the hull.
So shut up. If you are too young to remember when the APOC was changed you should not emit opinion on this.
Trough tiercide CCP has been removign such bonuses, as in the VAgabond for example. For exact same reason, they are FAKE bonuses! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
688
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:46:00 -
[7566] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I've never flown in the AT and I can tell you that the Machariel's heading for a nerf. The same thing for the Cynabal and possibly the Dramiel. They're incredibly fast ships with not-so-bad tanks and devastating damage output.
This, however, isn't the pirate rebalancing thread so I'll leave anything else for that thread.
The dramiel was already nerfed a lot. When CCP commented on the need to nerf machariel they said the ship needed it because it did not pass for the same treatment that the Dramiel passed. That implies that Dramiel is OK.
The cynabal problem is steppign on vagabond toes, not so much its strenght. PRoblem is how to make it not step in vagabond, withotu becomeing too weak. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 17:25:00 -
[7567] - Quote
I hear what your saying regards the Paladins bonuses, but considering the Paladin is the strongest Marauder post patch it probably doesn't need another strong bonus, even though your argument is sound. |

Hawk Firestorm
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 17:52:00 -
[7568] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:For the love of God stop introducing new skills and modules for no reason and just balance the ships. This Bastion thing will be incredibly OP in niche PvP situations and most PvE situations and incredibly useless the rest of the time.
Indeed
Ships,skills,modules need stripping out and relooking at.
All ships should become modular, ie the Golem should be a modular variant of the raven hull like the tengu, the phonebook of skills should be trimmed back as much as possible and modules should be grouped to use existing skills as much as possible.
And NO ship should become immobile using any mode, slower perhaps but not immobile. |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3465
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:06:00 -
[7569] - Quote
I don't really know about the Pally, because it's the only marauder I can't fly atm. But I have played with the other 3 on SiSi and they are awesome compared to their variants on TQ.
Any words on what skills? I've already trained both my alts to High Energy Physics-4. |

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 20:04:00 -
[7570] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I've never flown in the AT and I can tell you that the Machariel's heading for a nerf. The same thing for the Cynabal and possibly the Dramiel. They're incredibly fast ships with not-so-bad tanks and devastating damage output.
This, however, isn't the pirate rebalancing thread so I'll leave anything else for that thread.
baltec1 wrote:We don't hate it, we love it. Unfortunately it is simply far too good compared to other battleships.
"incredibly fast" you can call a ship which it is used to be, because of their herritage.. also only 35m/s faster than the dps monster vindicator and 23m/s faster than Typhoon FI and 31m/s faster than Tempest FI.. "devastating damage output" i have no word for this but over 1000dps battlecruisers and over 600dps dessies.. with not so bad tanking.. you know how autocannons work, so practical dps is not much like you said, imho.. anti-antagonist-á "not a friend of enemy of antagonist" |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 20:05:00 -
[7571] - Quote
if you think about it the mobile depot is pretty much bastion mode for all ships at least for pve. They need to fix this. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 20:16:00 -
[7572] - Quote
Jake Sake wrote:Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses.
The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it. How many battleships other than the Marauders get an range bonus and a damage bonus? Right, just the Machariel, otherwise known as the most overpowered ship in the game. The Paladin bonus is also an optimal bonus, which means you get 100% of your DPS for the whole range, unlike the falloff bonuses of the other 3 ships that get range + damage bonuses. It's not a "worthless bonus" any more than any of the other base hull bonuses on any other T2 ship. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
489
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 21:31:00 -
[7573] - Quote
Are we still trying to nerf the Paladin?  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1025
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 21:35:00 -
[7574] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Are we still trying to nerf the Paladin? 
Is there really anything else left to do in this thread without further reply from Ytterbium? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
489
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 21:36:00 -
[7575] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is there really anything else left to do in this thread without further reply from Ytterbium? I say we nerf the Vargur and Kronos to finish them off. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1025
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 21:42:00 -
[7576] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Is there really anything else left to do in this thread without further reply from Ytterbium? I say we nerf the Vargur and Kronos to finish them off.
We could discuss the Golem's uses as a RHML boat. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
490
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 22:09:00 -
[7577] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:We could discuss the Golem's uses as a RHML boat. Gone in 60 seconds?  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
365
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 22:11:00 -
[7578] - Quote
My experience using all 4 marauders on sisi for pve is as follows:
Paladin: Monster tachyon boat at 60-120km. Beyond that dps starts dropping hard due to low damage crystals. Pulses are also a viable option if going for lower level pve where incoming damage is negligible and neuts are rare (ie lvl4 missions).
Golem: Monster cruise missile boat, does as much dps at 249.9km as the paladin does at 60km. But it's also missiles, so yeah, damage tends to be mitigated a bit but overall it seems better against BC/BS npc's and structures. Top dog for high level pve. Torps should be useful in lvl4's as well using the MJD to get into range.
Kronos: Ok with railguns, I'd say slightly inferior to the Paladin but still pretty good. Range and dps are very similar, the real difference is simply optimal vs falloff. Hard to say how it will play out with a blaster fit in lvl4's. I don't think they quite have the range to work with a MJD.
Vargur: Of no value in high level pve. Even with arty, the range is just too short to out range neut towers and arty is ill suited to lvl4 missions. AC's can be used effectively with the MJD but work heavily in falloff. End result is a rather lackluster pve ship.
The only one I really tested in pvp was the vargur and although it draws the short straw in pve, it's a beast in small gang pvp. That tank combined with good tracking and average dps make for a real monster. An immobile monster with zero EW, but as a dps ship in a small gang with proper tackle, it's nasty. Same could probably be said for a torp golem though I didn't try it. I tried to make a decent Paladin PvP fit but was unimpressed by the results, never even bothered to undock it. I suspect the Kronos is similar. The whole active armor tanking thing just doesn't work very well in my experience.
Edit: I find the whole capacitor argument silly. Look at the overall ship, not individual bonuses. With the rep off, the paladin can fire tachyons with gleam all day without capping out using no cap increasing modules. But it can't run any sort of active tank like that or a prop mod. That makes it similar in overall cap state to the other 3 marauders. Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 23:12:00 -
[7579] - Quote
Xequecal wrote: The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it.
Golem does more damage at 240km than paladin. So no, paladin is not "way stronger" than golem.
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 23:12:00 -
[7580] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.
If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.
The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.
It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that? Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5. The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%. Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers. I very much get it. YOU on the other hand DOES NOT get it. Is it really that complicated for you? really? It has 8 cap/sec, kronos has 6 cap/sec, others got 5.5 and 5.6. Amarr ships have always had slightly more cap/sec (apart from t2's etc because whoever desined the t2 command ships etc is a lazy clown) Currently BEFORE said bonus is applied the Paladin has 33.33% more cap/sec than the Kronos, that's HUGE, that's like an officer cap relay buildt into it. add the 25% cap bonus and it's got 10 cap/sec compared to 6 on the Kronos(yes I am very much aware that this takes up 1 of it's bonuses) You honestly think it's fine that Paladin would have 66.67% more cap/sec than the Kronos without any bonuses and over 78-80%+ more than Vargur and Golem? Please don't ever post on these forums again if you don't happen to have any clue about what you're saying. Paladin is BEAST post changes, Golem is lame, Kronos is Lame, and Vargur is ASS. Omg .. and HOW much cap TACHYONS use compared to the weapons the Kronos use? Clearly you are the one that does not have a clue. I play this game for 7 years, and there always were a reason for ammar have FAR more capacitor than other races. And my line of reasoning was EXACLTY the one CCP gave OFFICIALLY when they removed that SAME CAPACITOR BONUS form the old apoc. YES.. SAME BONUS!!!! That the paladin inherited because It was made BEFORE the APOC was changed and the Capacitor bonus was rolled INTO the hull. So shut up. If you are too young to remember when the APOC was changed you should not emit opinion on this. Trough tiercide CCP has been removign such bonuses, as in the VAgabond for example. For exact same reason, they are FAKE bonuses!
Played since 2004, I very much remember when paladin had the cap bonus. I even remember when Blackbirds fit Torps and Thoraxes flew around with 8 heavy drones. (didn'-¿t play when frigs fit CM's)
Removing the cap bonus would give it less cap/sec than it has on sisi now, as it would NOT be allowed to have that bonus buidlt into the hull ON TOP of the "bonus" it already has buildt in which balances out Tachs cap use and some extra. If you expect it to have 66% better than Kronos while shedding that bonus for a tracking bonus, Esp considering how powerful it is now, then you are a complete and utter moron.
But it's already proven by your comments that you're an idiot of a rather high magnitude.
So stop your insulting of people when you have absolutely no clue what balance is. you are dumb as F. |
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 23:14:00 -
[7581] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:My experience using all 4 marauders on sisi for pve is as follows:
Paladin: Monster tachyon boat at 60-120km. Beyond that dps starts dropping hard due to low damage crystals. Pulses are also a viable option if going for lower level pve where incoming damage is negligible and neuts are rare (ie lvl4 missions).
Golem: Monster cruise missile boat, does as much dps at 249.9km as the paladin does at 60km. But it's also missiles, so yeah, damage tends to be mitigated a bit but overall it seems better against BC/BS npc's and structures. Top dog for high level pve. Torps should be useful in lvl4's as well using the MJD to get into range.
Kronos: Ok with railguns, I'd say slightly inferior to the Paladin but still pretty good. Range and dps are very similar, the real difference is simply optimal vs falloff. Hard to say how it will play out with a blaster fit in lvl4's. I don't think they quite have the range to work with a MJD.
Vargur: Of no value in high level pve. Even with arty, the range is just too short to out range neut towers and arty is ill suited to lvl4 missions. AC's can be used effectively with the MJD but work heavily in falloff. End result is a rather lackluster pve ship.
The only one I really tested in pvp was the vargur and although it draws the short straw in pve, it's a beast in small gang pvp. That tank combined with good tracking and average dps make for a real monster. An immobile monster with zero EW, but as a dps ship in a small gang with proper tackle, it's nasty. Same could probably be said for a torp golem though I didn't try it. I tried to make a decent Paladin PvP fit but was unimpressed by the results, never even bothered to undock it. I suspect the Kronos is similar. The whole active armor tanking thing just doesn't work very well in my experience.
Edit: I find the whole capacitor argument silly. Look at the overall ship, not individual bonuses. With the rep off, the paladin can fire tachyons with gleam all day without capping out using no cap increasing modules. But it can't run any sort of active tank like that or a prop mod. That makes it similar in overall cap state to the other 3 marauders.
1146 dps vs 1007 dps (Tach Paladin vs Rail Kronos), with over 10km more optimal range is more than a "slight difference"
|

Jax Slizard
Celerna
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 00:18:00 -
[7582] - Quote
You know, the Golem + RHML + Mobile depot = Crazy Tank.
You only need to keep DPS modules fitted for 20-ish seconds, then refit to tank during the looooooooong reload.... |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
490
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 00:19:00 -
[7583] - Quote
All one needs is an automatic key clicker and you're set. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 01:58:00 -
[7584] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Xequecal wrote: The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it.
Golem does more damage at 240km than paladin. So no, paladin is not "way stronger" than golem.
Raven does more damage than any turret BS at >60km. Do people use Raven fleets in PvP? No, they don't. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 02:18:00 -
[7585] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Spc One wrote:Xequecal wrote: The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it.
Golem does more damage at 240km than paladin. So no, paladin is not "way stronger" than golem. Raven does more damage than any turret BS at >60km. Do people use Raven fleets in PvP? No, they don't. No, but they use typhoon.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
690
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 09:25:00 -
[7586] - Quote
Doed wrote: Played since 2004, I very much remember when paladin had the cap bonus. I even remember when Blackbirds fit Torps and Thoraxes flew around with 8 heavy drones. (didn'-¿t play when frigs fit CM's)
Removing the cap bonus would give it less cap/sec than it has on sisi now, as it would NOT be allowed to have that bonus buidlt into the hull ON TOP of the "bonus" it already has buildt in which balances out Tachs cap use and some extra. If you expect it to have 66% better than Kronos while shedding that bonus for a tracking bonus, Esp considering how powerful it is now, then you are a complete and utter moron.
But it's already proven by your comments that you're an idiot of a rather high magnitude.
So stop your insulting of people when you have absolutely no clue what balance is. you are dumb as F.
You are the one doing the insulting. And If you cannot undersntand that the paladin lost some base cap exaclyl to keep that bonus.. then I cannot help you. But it is pretty obvious to anyone that want to try to understand, not just sit as a rock and close ears to anythign different from his own vision.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
690
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 09:27:00 -
[7587] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Jake Sake wrote:Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses. The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it. How many battleships other than the Marauders get an range bonus and a damage bonus? Right, just the Machariel, otherwise known as the most overpowered ship in the game. The Paladin bonus is also an optimal bonus, which means you get 100% of your DPS for the whole range, unlike the falloff bonuses of the other 3 ships that get range + damage bonuses. It's not a "worthless bonus" any more than any of the other base hull bonuses on any other T2 ship.
And those other hull bonuse son t2 hulls, based on the t1 skills ahve been mostly removed trough tiercide. That is my point.
My original statement was that if they removed the range bonus for soemthiugn weaker like tracking Then they should integrate the cap bonus in the hull and give somethign on its place. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 09:48:00 -
[7588] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Xequecal wrote:Jake Sake wrote:Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses. The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it. How many battleships other than the Marauders get an range bonus and a damage bonus? Right, just the Machariel, otherwise known as the most overpowered ship in the game. The Paladin bonus is also an optimal bonus, which means you get 100% of your DPS for the whole range, unlike the falloff bonuses of the other 3 ships that get range + damage bonuses. It's not a "worthless bonus" any more than any of the other base hull bonuses on any other T2 ship. And those other hull bonuse son t2 hulls, based on the t1 skills ahve been mostly removed trough tiercide. That is my point. My original statement was that if they removed the range bonus for soemthiugn weaker like tracking Then they should integrate the cap bonus in the hull and give somethign on its place.
And what should be given in it's place ? that wouldn't be overpowered? if I may ask? Less cap use on guns with 4 turrets for even more ridiculous cap benefit to the Paladin? |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
690
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 09:54:00 -
[7589] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Xequecal wrote:Jake Sake wrote:Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses. The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it. How many battleships other than the Marauders get an range bonus and a damage bonus? Right, just the Machariel, otherwise known as the most overpowered ship in the game. The Paladin bonus is also an optimal bonus, which means you get 100% of your DPS for the whole range, unlike the falloff bonuses of the other 3 ships that get range + damage bonuses. It's not a "worthless bonus" any more than any of the other base hull bonuses on any other T2 ship. And those other hull bonuse son t2 hulls, based on the t1 skills ahve been mostly removed trough tiercide. That is my point. My original statement was that if they removed the range bonus for soemthiugn weaker like tracking Then they should integrate the cap bonus in the hull and give somethign on its place. And what should be given in it's place ? that wouldn't be overpowered? if I may ask? Less cap use on guns with 4 turrets for even more ridiculous cap benefit to the Paladin?
As I stated, that would be moslty needed if the RANGE bonus was to be removed as the guy just before myoriginal post was requiring. On the current scenario, with the range bonus the "lost" bonus is acceptable. But if paladin lost its only POWERFUl bonus, then the cap bonus would need to be gone for basically anything useful. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 09:55:00 -
[7590] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Doed wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Xequecal wrote:Jake Sake wrote:Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses. The Paladin's optimal range bonus is a way stronger than average bonus so you get a weaker bonus to balance it. How many battleships other than the Marauders get an range bonus and a damage bonus? Right, just the Machariel, otherwise known as the most overpowered ship in the game. The Paladin bonus is also an optimal bonus, which means you get 100% of your DPS for the whole range, unlike the falloff bonuses of the other 3 ships that get range + damage bonuses. It's not a "worthless bonus" any more than any of the other base hull bonuses on any other T2 ship. And those other hull bonuse son t2 hulls, based on the t1 skills ahve been mostly removed trough tiercide. That is my point. My original statement was that if they removed the range bonus for soemthiugn weaker like tracking Then they should integrate the cap bonus in the hull and give somethign on its place. And what should be given in it's place ? that wouldn't be overpowered? if I may ask? Less cap use on guns with 4 turrets for even more ridiculous cap benefit to the Paladin? As I stated, that would be moslty needed if the RANGE bonus was to be removed as the guy just before myoriginal post was requiring. On the current scenario, with the range bonus the "lost" bonus is acceptable. But if paladin lost its only POWERFUl bonus, then the cap bonus would need to be gone for basically anything useful.
Actually, it'd still be better than the Kronos even with a tracking bonus and the cap bonus. which is kinda funny. Pulse Paladin would actually be worse than Kronos for short range tracking stuff though. but overall the Paladin is better with Pulses than the Kronos is with Blasters aswell.
But yeah, the Kronos is balls compared to the Paladin and CPP refuses to acknowledge it. |
|

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:18:00 -
[7591] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: As I stated, that would be moslty needed if the RANGE bonus was to be removed as the guy just before myoriginal post was requiring. On the current scenario, with the range bonus the "lost" bonus is acceptable. But if paladin lost its only POWERFUl bonus, then the cap bonus would need to be gone for basically anything useful.
So let me get this right, all your posts full of capital letters and insults were actually about a theoretical Paladin that doesn't exist, apart from in your head, and your calling people stupid because they don't get your imagined vision of what a Paladin would need if it was different to what we have, what are you smoking dude?
You've basically said that your argument stands up, but only if we twist reality to the point where we're discussing something that isn't happening. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
690
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:31:00 -
[7592] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: As I stated, that would be moslty needed if the RANGE bonus was to be removed as the guy just before myoriginal post was requiring. On the current scenario, with the range bonus the "lost" bonus is acceptable. But if paladin lost its only POWERFUl bonus, then the cap bonus would need to be gone for basically anything useful.
So let me get this right, all your posts full of capital letters and insults were actually about a theoretical Paladin that doesn't exist, apart from in your head, and your calling people stupid because they don't get your imagined vision of what a Paladin would need if it was different to what we have, what are you smoking dude? You've basically said that your argument stands up, but only if we twist reality to the point where we're discussing something that isn't happening.
Insults? i did nto insult anyone. Peopel shoudl learn to read the covnersation before getting in middle of it. I was answering to another post that asked for the range bonus to be removed because it was too powerful
For god sake people, learn to use a forum, read the thread, not singleposts. This is not twitter! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
596
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:35:00 -
[7593] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Insults? i did nto insult anyone. Peopel shoudl learn to read the covnersation before getting in middle of it. I was answering to another post that asked for the range bonus to be removed because it was too powerful
For god sake people, learn to use a forum, read the thread, not singleposts. This is not twitter!
I had a valid point a few hundret pages back. You can go look for it.
Also, chill man, it's just a game, in the end nobody will be hurting over it.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
691
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:41:00 -
[7594] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Insults? i did nto insult anyone. Peopel shoudl learn to read the covnersation before getting in middle of it. I was answering to another post that asked for the range bonus to be removed because it was too powerful
For god sake people, learn to use a forum, read the thread, not singleposts. This is not twitter!
I had a valid point a few hundret pages back. You can go look for it. Also, chill man, it's just a game, in the end nobody will be hurting over it. 
Not raging on you, jsut bafled on a person that half read a post that states that my other post was upon what another guy posted ignoring the part of another guy and transforming it in " imagination".
Too many people read these messages as twitter, these youglings that do not grasp what a FORUM is. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
596
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:47:00 -
[7595] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Not raging on you, jsut bafled on a person that half read a post that states that my other post was upon what another guy posted ignoring the part of another guy and transforming it in " imagination".
Too many people read these messages as twitter, these youglings that do not grasp what a FORUM is.
I know, but look at this threadnaught. 
Reading the whole post history might lead to a flame war with one post per day per user. IF there's nothing else to do, like eating or sleeping.
Also I said chill because some of your typos looked like you were quite enraged at the time, I could almost feel your thoughts and how you wanted to strangle the other guy. ^_^ Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:51:00 -
[7596] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote: I think the Paladin needs 4 turret hardpoints, cos in my reality it has 8 highs, 4 launchers and 4 utility.
4 Launchers ? You can't fit launchers on paladin.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
691
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:52:00 -
[7597] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Not raging on you, jsut bafled on a person that half read a post that states that my other post was upon what another guy posted ignoring the part of another guy and transforming it in " imagination".
Too many people read these messages as twitter, these youglings that do not grasp what a FORUM is.
I know, but look at this threadnaught.  Reading the whole post history might lead to a flame war with one post per day per user. IF there's nothing else to do, like eating or sleeping. Also I said chill because some of your typos looked like you were quite enraged at the time, I could almost feel your thoughts and how you wanted to strangle the other guy. ^_^
Nope, I just type horribly when I am typing fast while at work and alt tabing very fast. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 18:36:00 -
[7598] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Nice fit, I will prob change out the web for another TP, but 3 and the Rigor is good enough. Also with cruise missiles I hit out to 222km, I can only lock to 118km, so I don't need speed rigs. I was thinking torps, but I rather just be lazy and sit there haha. The speed rigs eliminate DPS loss to bad volley counting. Cruise have an ~8.4s cycle, missiles are traveling at 17km/s, so you don't have to volley count out to ~100km. Or without the speed rigs, you shouldn't have to volley count out to ~80km. isnt volley counting the only thing keeping you from falling asleep while missioning with bastion ? oh and with bastion and no rigs you dont have to count to around 90km |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 18:46:00 -
[7599] - Quote
I'm not too worried about volley damage, L4 rats don't rep fast usually, and Marauders as a whole will be OP for L4s and such. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 18:51:00 -
[7600] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:isnt volley counting the only thing keeping you from falling asleep while missioning with bastion ? oh and with bastion and no rigs you dont have to count to around 90km Actually counting bastion cycles should prevent you from that. Unless you don't mind waiting idle for say half a minute in every pocket. |
|

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
701
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 19:30:00 -
[7601] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Golem -
..blech...
Thoughts?
I fit this on SiSi, it seems to work pretty good. I plan to use it for L4s, so it should be more then enough for them. If you have to ask why the Meta 4s instead of T2s, then you shouldn't even comment. Everything fits, with a bit a room left over. With the NOSs off you get around 4m 30s. Does good DPS, great tank. Locks out to 118km plus so no need for a prop module. Web is mainly there to help the drones out, was thinking of putting an extender or another TP, but thought it's always nice to have a web haha. Only question I had, is while in bastion Ewar isn't suppose to effect you, do neuts still effect you though? Yes, neuts will still affect you. With bastion mode, you get 400+ tank against EM/Therm 550-600 against other NPC types. With missile speed rigs you will never have to volley count again. The 4th TP is to help make up for the lack of Rigors. Or you can fit two T2 Rigors instead. Doesn't really matter, IMO. However, with the missile speed rigs, you can run torpedoes for the few missions where torpedoes are better than cruise. You have 8 minutes of cap with everything but the MWD running. Which is plenty to clear a pocket. The MWD is there just because. It's not like you have enough cap to get very far while running it. Or you can replace it with a MJD. [Rubicon Golem, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Ballistic Control System II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Shadow Serpentis 100MN Microwarpdrive Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Salvage Drone I x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Don't forget to pack a Mobile Depot with extra drones, cap modules, torp launchers, tank modules, an AB, salvagers, etc., in case you decide to change your fitting in the middle of a mission, e.g. add more tank, swap cruise for torps, etc..
I tried a very similar fit on Sisi and a Blaster fit Kronos since I have almost max skills for both, and... it was highly dissapointing with the golem to say the least.
On serpentis battlecruisers for instance it takes approximately x5 more time to kill them with two target painters. (I had only two TPs though. Aren't they stacking penalized ?) G££ <= Me |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 19:40:00 -
[7602] - Quote
volley counting is never a problem but tp 10s cycle was . but with 5s tp cycle i dont find it so bad anymore . another reason why golem gonna be king . |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 19:43:00 -
[7603] - Quote
Altrue wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Golem -
..blech...
Thoughts?
I fit this on SiSi, it seems to work pretty good. I plan to use it for L4s, so it should be more then enough for them. If you have to ask why the Meta 4s instead of T2s, then you shouldn't even comment. Everything fits, with a bit a room left over. With the NOSs off you get around 4m 30s. Does good DPS, great tank. Locks out to 118km plus so no need for a prop module. Web is mainly there to help the drones out, was thinking of putting an extender or another TP, but thought it's always nice to have a web haha. Only question I had, is while in bastion Ewar isn't suppose to effect you, do neuts still effect you though? Yes, neuts will still affect you. With bastion mode, you get 400+ tank against EM/Therm 550-600 against other NPC types. With missile speed rigs you will never have to volley count again. The 4th TP is to help make up for the lack of Rigors. Or you can fit two T2 Rigors instead. Doesn't really matter, IMO. However, with the missile speed rigs, you can run torpedoes for the few missions where torpedoes are better than cruise. You have 8 minutes of cap with everything but the MWD running. Which is plenty to clear a pocket. The MWD is there just because. It's not like you have enough cap to get very far while running it. Or you can replace it with a MJD. [Rubicon Golem, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Ballistic Control System II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Shadow Serpentis 100MN Microwarpdrive Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Salvage Drone I x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Don't forget to pack a Mobile Depot with extra drones, cap modules, torp launchers, tank modules, an AB, salvagers, etc., in case you decide to change your fitting in the middle of a mission, e.g. add more tank, swap cruise for torps, etc.. I tried a very similar fit on Sisi and a Blaster fit Kronos since I have almost max skills for both, and... it was highly dissapointing with the golem to say the least. On serpentis battlecruisers for instance it takes approximately x5 more time to kill them with two target painters. (I had only two TPs though. Aren't they stacking penalized ?)
with golem you 1 shot all battlecruisers and cruisers and 2 shot elite cruisers at orbiting speed but if they are buring towards you at high speed sometimes, it take up 3-5 shots to kill a one.
|

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
356
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:14:00 -
[7604] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:with golem you 1 shot all battlecruisers and cruisers and 2 shot elite cruisers at orbiting speed but if they are buring towards you at high speed sometimes, it take up 3-5 shots to kill a one.
3-5 shots when they DONT burn at high speeds you mean? Because their MWD is advantageous for player - it blows their sig by a factor of 5 while only doubling their speed (spider drones are an exception, as well as sleepers and incursion Sansha). Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |

stoicfaux
3341
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:17:00 -
[7605] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Mer88 wrote:with golem you 1 shot all battlecruisers and cruisers and 2 shot elite cruisers at orbiting speed but if they are buring towards you at high speed sometimes, it take up 3-5 shots to kill a one.
3-5 shots when they DONT burn at high speeds you mean? Because their MWD is advantageous for player - it blows their sig by a factor of 5 while only doubling their speed (spider drones are an exception, as well as sleepers and incursion Sansha). The MWD isn't always on. NPCs will "coast" in at high speed with the MWDs off in order to decelerate into their predefined orbit range. It's during this coasting period that you'll experience damage degradation.
/note_to_self: Wander over to F&I and recommend that NPCs use ABs.
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:29:00 -
[7606] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Mer88 wrote:with golem you 1 shot all battlecruisers and cruisers and 2 shot elite cruisers at orbiting speed but if they are buring towards you at high speed sometimes, it take up 3-5 shots to kill a one.
3-5 shots when they DONT burn at high speeds you mean? Because their MWD is advantageous for player - it blows their sig by a factor of 5 while only doubling their speed (spider drones are an exception, as well as sleepers and incursion Sansha).
i used to think like that too but when they turn on its actually good for you. its only bad after they turn off the mwd while still at high speed decelration. overall its a bad thing mwd. cuz they never use it long enough only a few secs at a time. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:31:00 -
[7607] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Mer88 wrote:with golem you 1 shot all battlecruisers and cruisers and 2 shot elite cruisers at orbiting speed but if they are buring towards you at high speed sometimes, it take up 3-5 shots to kill a one.
3-5 shots when they DONT burn at high speeds you mean? Because their MWD is advantageous for player - it blows their sig by a factor of 5 while only doubling their speed (spider drones are an exception, as well as sleepers and incursion Sansha). The MWD isn't always on. NPCs will "coast" in at high speed with the MWDs off in order to decelerate into their predefined orbit range. It's during this coasting period that you'll experience damage degradation. /note_to_self: Wander over to F&I and recommend that NPCs use ABs.
^ yeah this is exactly it |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:32:00 -
[7608] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote: wont 4 allready be stacking penalized to death ?
I was being sacrastic, yes 1 TP is enough, no need for 4.

Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:I'm not too worried about volley damage, L4 rats don't rep fast usually, and Marauders as a whole will be OP for L4s and such. You still have level 5 missions if you want harder content.
 |

John Celver
Understandable Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 22:05:00 -
[7609] - Quote
Is the 7,5% optimal bonus for the Paladin a 7,5% bonus per Amarr battleship level, or just 7,5%. It isn't specified. |

joshua mckayne
Bubblewrap.
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 22:33:00 -
[7610] - Quote
John Celver wrote:Is the 7,5% optimal bonus for the Paladin a 7,5% bonus per Amarr battleship level, or just 7,5%? It isn't specified.
7.5% per level just like the apocalypse
|
|

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
70
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 22:51:00 -
[7611] - Quote
When I do L5s, Sancs 60 of 10s and up I use a RS, it gets over 900DPS with a fully passive fit, better for them. The ability to change damage size and type (drones) helps a lot also. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
65
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 02:35:00 -
[7612] - Quote
A request for launcher hardpoints on the Vargur.
These are ship statistics I put out only to visualize the following: 1) Minmatar uses missiles a lot, even on gunships. 2) Boundless Creation allows missiles on all their ships except the Vargur. 3) Almost all Minmatar ships follow the Brutor Tribe code of every inch for maximum firepower, except Vargur and Panther. 4) The Tempest class Battleships, from which the Vargur derives from support an optional hefty arsenal of launchers. 5) The tradition of using launchers as a secondary weapon system goes down to even the most insignificant ship, the Reaper, notably the Naglfar up to just recently had split weapon systems, fitting missiles as an option is inherently Minmatar. 6) Only a few Minmatar ship exceptions exist which do not allow the utilization of missiles, notably they are the Tornado and Maelstrom, both full rack artillery platforms without free slots for launchers anyway, then we have the Slasher which should have a launcher but doesn't, the Burst is a 'logi'; The remaining two are the T2 Battleships Vargur/Panther which both should have ample launcher hardpoints to follow tradition due to multiple 'available' high slots.
Note This is not about ignoring the fact that the guns on the vargur have a 100% bonus and as such allow more free high slots, it is about design philosophy on these ships regardless of said bonus; If there are 4 available slots on the Vargur, Boundless Creation would put weapons into those slots, more so since the design of putting launcher hardpoints would follow the Tempest tradition not to mention Minmatar as a whole.
One notable detail for those who doubt this is the Sleipnir, it provides a 100% damage bonus on 5 turrets, with 2 launchers optional, it is made by Boundless Creation and offers essentially the same properties as the Vargur in every aspect of combat, it is merely smaller and doubles as a Command ship, just as the Vargur doubles as a salvage bunker.
Rarely do people fit launchers into the utility slots but the option exists through the initial design by Boundless Creation, the same would apply to the Vargur, with 4 launcher hardpoints you would firstly need to remove Bastion to utilize all 4, then you would need to ignore the tractor beam bonus and any drone links or salvagers, meaning you're compromising quite a lot of utility for those few optional launchers.
The added launcher hardpoints would be a welcome change to the current SiSi Vargur as it is the least benefited of the Marauders in terms of the total resulting changes.
Lets look at the details of the Marauder class, Boundless Creation and ship statistics.
Name: Vargur Hull: Tempest Class Role: Marauder
Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines.
Developer: Boundless Creation
Boundless Creation's ships are based on the Brutor Tribe's philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential.
Some subcap statistics, these will all be presented in the following pattern: Turrets/Launchers/Highs = *ability to fill high slots with weapon systems*
In relation to possibility of utilizing high slots for weapon systems: Vargur 4/0/8 = 50% <- Boundless Creation Panther 5/0/8 = 62.5% Burst 2/0/3 = 75% Scimitar 2/1/4 = 75% Slasher 3/0/4 = 75% (all others are at 100% or above)
In relation to creator: Vargur 4/0/8 = 50%<- Boundless Creation Sleipnir 5/2/7 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Huginn 3/3/6 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Muninn 5/1/6 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Wolf 4/1/5 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Hound 2/3/5 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Claw 3/2/4 = 100% <- Boundless Creation
Minmatar ships (bolded are ships without launchers)
Battleship Vargur 4/0/8 = 50%<- Boundless Creation Panther 5/0/8 = 62.5% <- Thukker mix Tempest 6/4/8 = 100% Tempest Fleet Issue 6/4/8 = 100% Maelstrom 8/0/8 = 100% Typhoon 6/6/7 = 100% Typhoon Fleet Issue 6/6/8 = 100%
Battlecruiser Tornado 8/0/8 = 100% Hurricane 6/3/7 = 100% Hurricane Fleet Issue 6/3/8 = 100% Sleipnir 5/2/7 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Cyclone 2/5/7 = 100% Claymore 2/5/7 = 100%
Cruiser Rupture 4/1/5 = 100% Muninn 5/1/6 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Broadsword 5/3/6 = 100% Vagabond 5/1/6 = 100% Stabber 4/2/6 = 100% Stabber Fleet Issue 5/3/5 = 100% Scythe 2/1/3 = 100% Scythe Fleet Issue 4/4/5 = 100% Bellicose 0/4/4 = 100% Huginn 3/3/6 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Rapier 3/1/4 = 100% Scimitar 2/1/4 = 75%
Destroyer Talwar 0/7/7 = 100% Thrasher 7/1/8 = 100% Sabre 7/2/8 = 100%
Frigate Vigil 0/2/2 = 100% Slasher 3/0/4 = 75% Rifter 3/2/4 = 100% Probe 2/2/3 = 100% Burst 2/0/3 = 75% Breacher 0/3/3 = 100% Republic Fleet Firetail 2/1/3 = 100% Stiletto 2/1/3 = 100% Claw 3/2/4 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Hyena 2/2/3 = 100% Hound 2/3/5 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Cheetah 2/1/3 = 100% Wolf 4/1/5 = 100% <- Boundless Creation Jaguar 3/1/4 = 100% Reaper 2/2/2 = 100%
TL;DR Vargur should allow the option of fitting missile launchers on all its potentially gun free high slots in Rubicon, that means 4 launcher hardpoints.
The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
517
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 02:52:00 -
[7613] - Quote
Missile Vargur, huh? Now I've heard everything...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1058
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 04:05:00 -
[7614] - Quote
Has anyone stopped to do the math on how many effective turrets a Tempest/TFI has vs a Vargur? |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 07:47:00 -
[7615] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Lol, fun proposal: Way 1 - For those, who want to maximize their dps instead of mission-salvage ability, giving all marauders 4 launcher hardpoints and including those in role bonus will make pvpers very happy :P Way 2 - 8x Turret hardpoints (8x launcher for golem) with same role bonus. Just look at that! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebza3WPo28U)  Wouldn't that be awesome? :P hows way 1 different than what we have right now? way 2 is just silly .
I can't believe someone took it serious  
Mate, I didn't mean anything serious there. However, every joke has some meaning within...
Just for clarification; In way one, turret based marauders, in this case, everything except golem, gets additional 4 launcher hardpoints. Golem gets additional 4 turret hardpoints instead.
In way two, all marauders' current hardpoint number is doubled. 4 -> 8, which increases same type of effective weapons to 16  
Note: I really see some people got this idea and proposed this! Interesting... |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 08:43:00 -
[7616] - Quote
I'm probably late to this, seeing as the release date for Rubicon has been set for a week away, but I really do agree with the players suggesting an overall damage bonus for bastion mode. For a lot of players, the new-and-improved Marauders will appear (as they should) as a mini-dreadnaught that you can use in highsec POS sieges, and in subcapital WH fights. I'm fully aware that a balance must be struck between creating its new PvP application while keeping its old PvE ability, but in some ways the mix of bonuses feel like they'd do more confusion than good to the ships as new-to-the-role pilots struggle to find a way to fully apply their Marauder to the battlefield in either PvP or PvE.
tl;dr: I am in total support of a damage buff to make the bastion'd marauders fully feel like mini-dreadnaughts. "She turned me into a neut!!"
"Well I got better..." |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 08:52:00 -
[7617] - Quote
Kito Yularen wrote:I'm probably late to this, seeing as the release date for Rubicon has been set for a week away, but I really do agree with the players suggesting an overall damage bonus for bastion mode. For a lot of players, the new-and-improved Marauders will appear (as they should) as a mini-dreadnaught that you can use in highsec POS sieges, and in subcapital WH fights. I'm fully aware that a balance must be struck between creating its new PvP application while keeping its old PvE ability, but in some ways the mix of bonuses feel like they'd do more confusion than good to the ships as new-to-the-role pilots struggle to find a way to fully apply their Marauder to the battlefield in either PvP or PvE.
tl;dr: I am in total support of a damage buff to make the bastion'd marauders fully feel like mini-dreadnaughts.
And one way to do is to simply put more firepower on them ;) See my fun-proposal, top of yours? It is fun proposal   |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 08:59:00 -
[7618] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:And one way to do is to simply put more firepower on them ;) Have you seen my fun-proposal which is located top of yours? It is fun proposal  
Honestly, I have to admit I hadn't read it (I only read the first 10 or so pages) but after reading your reply I made sure to. And I have to say, I love this idea. It could completely level the Marauder to act as a mini-dread should with 2-3K dps, and if they want to keep that balanced they could very easily make that 100% bonus only applicable when in bastion mode. Then neither PvE nor PvP'ers need lose anything.
The ONLY possible clause that I can forsee shaking this idea would be that the need for PG and CPU could potentially skyrocket due to suddenly doubling your weapons. "She turned me into a neut!!"
"Well I got better..." |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:23:00 -
[7619] - Quote
Kito Yularen wrote:Shivanthar wrote:And one way to do is to simply put more firepower on them ;) Have you seen my fun-proposal which is located top of yours? It is fun proposal   Honestly, I have to admit I hadn't read it (I only read the first 10 or so pages) but after reading your reply I made sure to. And I have to say, I love this idea. It could completely level the Marauder to act as a mini-dread should with 2-3K dps, and if they want to keep that balanced they could very easily make that 100% bonus only applicable when in bastion mode. Then neither PvE nor PvP'ers need lose anything. The ONLY possible clause that I can forsee shaking this idea would be that the need for PG and CPU could potentially skyrocket due to suddenly doubling your weapons.
Currently they're not exactly amazingly well balanced. but this idea is just bad. how is 3k dps while immune to EW and fielding a silly tank not breaking pve? and pvp? |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:26:00 -
[7620] - Quote
Doed wrote:Currently they're not exactly amazingly well balanced. but this idea is just bad. how is 3k dps while immune to EW and fielding a silly tank not breaking pve? and pvp? The same way that giving the same types of perks to dreadnaughts doesn't. It's immune to remote repair or other positive effects, forcing it to rely on its own local tank which can be quickly and mercilessly overpowered by focused aggression. "She turned me into a neut!!"
"Well I got better..." |
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:33:00 -
[7621] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kito Yularen wrote:Shivanthar wrote:And one way to do is to simply put more firepower on them ;) Have you seen my fun-proposal which is located top of yours? It is fun proposal   Honestly, I have to admit I hadn't read it (I only read the first 10 or so pages) but after reading your reply I made sure to. And I have to say, I love this idea. It could completely level the Marauder to act as a mini-dread should with 2-3K dps, and if they want to keep that balanced they could very easily make that 100% bonus only applicable when in bastion mode. Then neither PvE nor PvP'ers need lose anything. The ONLY possible clause that I can forsee shaking this idea would be that the need for PG and CPU could potentially skyrocket due to suddenly doubling your weapons. Currently they're not exactly amazingly well balanced. but this idea is just bad. how is 3k dps while immune to EW and fielding a silly tank not breaking pve? and pvp?
Not trying to argue against you in any way, but when someone calls a specialized bs (aka Marauder) as a "dread" of any kind, I expect something that has more dps than any BS out there. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:35:00 -
[7622] - Quote
Kito Yularen wrote:Doed wrote:Currently they're not exactly amazingly well balanced. but this idea is just bad. how is 3k dps while immune to EW and fielding a silly tank not breaking pve? and pvp? The same way that giving the same types of perks to dreadnaughts doesn't. It's unable to recieve remote repair or other positive effects, forcing it to rely on its own local tank which can be quickly and mercilessly overpowered by focused aggression. EDIT: And I'm sorry, but if I can solo any level 4 in a tengu with a SMALL shield booster, PvE is already broken.
Lvl 4's being broken is a known fact. being able to molest lvl 4's with 3k dps doesn't make it better. nor will this do very well for c4's etc if you can bring such overpowering dps with rather good tracking. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:41:00 -
[7623] - Quote
Doed wrote:Kito Yularen wrote:Doed wrote:Currently they're not exactly amazingly well balanced. but this idea is just bad. how is 3k dps while immune to EW and fielding a silly tank not breaking pve? and pvp? The same way that giving the same types of perks to dreadnaughts doesn't. It's unable to recieve remote repair or other positive effects, forcing it to rely on its own local tank which can be quickly and mercilessly overpowered by focused aggression. EDIT: And I'm sorry, but if I can solo any level 4 in a tengu with a SMALL shield booster, PvE is already broken. Lvl 4's being broken is a known fact. Even if your smallbooster Tengu can run lvl 4's it's painfully slow compared to other ships, esp after HML nerf. being able to molest lvl 4's with 3k dps doesn't make it better. nor will this do very well for c4's etc if you can bring such overpowering dps with rather good tracking.
Don't miss it. The more you fit such great firepower (it would be an option anyway) the more you will have to become a glass cannon. It can be done via playing pg/cpu. |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:44:00 -
[7624] - Quote
Doed wrote:
Lvl 4's being broken is a known fact. Even if your smallbooster Tengu can run lvl 4's it's painfully slow compared to other ships, esp after HML nerf. being able to molest lvl 4's with 3k dps doesn't make it better. nor will this do very well for c4's etc if you can bring such overpowering dps with rather good tracking.
Okay, then reduce the tracking of the Marauder's Bastion Mode-boosted guns, like what the Siege Mode does to Dreads.
I see what you're trying to say, but all of your points can be easily remedied. And rather than prevent a ship from revealing its fullest PvP potential in an effort to maintain an already practically nonexistant balance in PvE (This coming from someone that's done PvE for years and is just recently getting into being dedicated to PvP), why not just scale PvE to match the new ships? They'll likely need to do something like that anyways eventually.
Marauder is the only ship that is really designed from the ground up for PvE, and yet there are countless other ships that get the job done just as well for a fraction of the cost. So why not just let the Marauder live up to it's fullest PvP potential? It's not likely to change the fact that you have more Tengu and Faction Battleship missioners than Marauder missioners. "She turned me into a neut!!"
"Well I got better..." |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 09:48:00 -
[7625] - Quote
I engaged dread on sisi with my Vargur once. When that ship is in siege mode, nobody really wants to get tracked by those massive bonused guns. You've to think not twice, but three times before approaching head to head on a dread (with a BS).
If somebody will call Marauders as a "subcap dreads", I really want others to think three times before engaging/approaching to a bastion Marauder then. It is any Marauder pilot's right from the term/appliance perspective. If I will be the one nailed for becoming stationary in order to unleash something, I expect my barrels to protect me. Protecting me hard enough that others will have to think before approaching. Well, with that little ehp compared to a dread, my barrels will be my only choice for that one minute. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
708
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 10:13:00 -
[7626] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:I engaged dread on sisi with my Vargur once. When that ship is in siege mode, nobody really wants to get tracked by those massive bonused guns. You've to think not twice, but three times before approaching head to head on a dread (with a BS). If somebody will call Marauders as a "subcap dreads", I really want others to think three times before engaging/approaching to a bastion Marauder then. It is any Marauder pilot's right from the term/appliance perspective. If I will be the one nailed for becoming stationary in order to unleash something, I expect my barrels to protect me. Protecting me hard enough that others will have to think before approaching. Well, with that little ehp compared to a dread, my barrels will be my only choice for that one minute. Or, at least, I want my triple 800mm repeating artillery! (Minmatar philosophy FTW)
Why would that be? The vargur deals no more damage than a maesltrom.
And the capability of moving of normal battleships result in effective SUPERIOR tracking to the bastion user.
The only PVP usage for mareauders will be killing ECM filled POSs in high sec. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
600
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 10:35:00 -
[7627] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:If somebody will call Marauders as a "subcap dreads"... Was that somebody CCP?
If not, I don't care and neither should you.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
321
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 11:00:00 -
[7628] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The only PVP usage for mareauders will be killing ECM filled POSs in high sec.
Sure... Cause a Vargur tanking 6k dps even when neuted into oblivion, not even requiring cap boosters but just three NOS, is completely useless. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=288823&find=unread - Looking for a handful of well-versed EU pilots. Especially interested in hyperactive dscanners. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 11:05:00 -
[7629] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The only PVP usage for mareauders will be killing ECM filled POSs in high sec. Sure... Cause a Vargur tanking 6k dps even when neuted into oblivion, not even requiring cap boosters but just three NOS, is completely useless.
I personally can confirm something close to this degree of tanking, but it won't last much longer if you're covered with a constant 6k dps. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 11:51:00 -
[7630] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:If somebody will call Marauders as a "subcap dreads"... Was that somebody CCP? If not, I don't care and neither should you. 
First page, first post, sixth paragraph (second bullet), second sentence. Designing something in a way of its big brother makes it "mini big-brother". CCP designs some ships in this way.
For example, from the design perspective I can show you 2 bigger brothers of a hurricane. With Rubicon, this number will become 3. |
|

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
600
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 12:57:00 -
[7631] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote: First page, first post, sixth paragraph (second bullet), second sentence. Designing something in a way of its big brother makes it "mini big-brother". CCP designs some ships in this way.
For example, from the design perspective I can show you 2 bigger brothers of a hurricane. With Rubicon, this number will become 3.
You mean that one?
Quote:However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens.
He also said they'd have fancy animations like the rorqual but nobody would ever call them Mini-Rorquals. 
Also he never called them Mini-Dreadnaughts. Not in that post at least. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 14:18:00 -
[7632] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote: First page, first post, sixth paragraph (second bullet), second sentence. Designing something in a way of its big brother makes it "mini big-brother". CCP designs some ships in this way.
For example, from the design perspective I can show you 2 bigger brothers of a hurricane. With Rubicon, this number will become 3.
You mean that one? Quote:However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. He also said they'd have fancy animations like the rorqual but nobody would ever call them Mini-Rorquals.  Also he never called them Mini-Dreadnaughts. Not in that post at least.
Bravo Debora! That has always been my question of why people keep calling them mini-dreads but not mini-rorquals.
I kindly ask you what will happen;
1- When you engage bastion mode and 2- When you engage siege mode
I have always wondered why they put some sort of rainbow patterns in IQ tests and ask for correct answer that matches the original pattern. They don't look the same but normal people keep finding correct answer... If you get what I mean. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 14:39:00 -
[7633] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote: First page, first post, sixth paragraph (second bullet), second sentence. Designing something in a way of its big brother makes it "mini big-brother". CCP designs some ships in this way.
For example, from the design perspective I can show you 2 bigger brothers of a hurricane. With Rubicon, this number will become 3.
You mean that one? Quote:However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. He also said they'd have fancy animations like the rorqual but nobody would ever call them Mini-Rorquals.  Also he never called them Mini-Dreadnaughts. Not in that post at least. Bravo Debora! That has always been my question of why people keep calling them mini-dreads but not mini-rorquals. I kindly ask you what will happen; 1- When you engage bastion mode and 2- When you engage siege mode I have always wondered why they put some sort of rainbow patterns in IQ tests and ask for correct answer that matches the original pattern. They don't look the same but normal people keep finding correct answer... If you get what I mean.
3- When you engage triage mode.
ooooooooooh |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
600
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 14:42:00 -
[7634] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:
Bravo Debora! That has always been my question of why people keep calling them mini-dreads but not mini-rorquals.
I kindly ask you what will happen;
1- When you engage bastion mode and 2- When you engage siege mode
I have always wondered why they put some sort of rainbow patterns in IQ tests and ask for correct answer that matches the original pattern. They don't look the same but normal people keep finding correct answer... If you get what I mean.
See the post below yours, made me chuckle a little bit.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 14:42:00 -
[7635] - Quote
So much of this going on in this thread it almost makes me wish CCP would nerf the Marauders to hell and back just to give all you whiny argumentative little bitches something real to moan over.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 14:58:00 -
[7636] - Quote
Generally when I got stuck in my limited English vocabulary, somebody who understands what the hell has happened jumps out from the crowd and explains things in a neat way. This proved to be correct with explaining the relationship of "raiding" and "speed" in one of the past pages.
Let me explain in another way;
If you look at eve wiki, siege module's explanation is nearly as same as bastion's. It is for sure that bastion module is inspired from siege module.
When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules. When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.
Design team tried to find more fitting bonuses for BS class hulls. However, not being able to get RR, they are very pity against concentrated fire. CCP exactly wants this, they want Marauders die in a fleet combat when they're primaried. What they forgot is the price/performance ratio.
How much time it take for a dread in siege mode to die in a concencrated capital fire (except doomsday)? I know this is very relative to combat, but there is an idea. It would be other dreads giving the most damage to them, which are their price equavalent.
So the basic thinking is if let's say 10 non-siege dreads are shooting one siege dread, it is 10 isk shooting at 1 isk. If 10 BS' shooting at 1 marauder, it is 10 isk shooting at ~10 isk. But CCP's flaw here is that they want Marauders to go down fast! Just for this price/effectiveness ratio, I find their idea as flawed.
The problem is, these marauders are not dreads exactly, but penaltized in the same way as them when engaged into their specialized role, while having much lesser EHP than dreads in order to withstand BS fire.
|

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:05:00 -
[7637] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: ... crappy vargur ...
Why would that be? The vargur deals no more damage than a maesltrom.
And the capability of moving of normal battleships result in effective SUPERIOR tracking to the bastion user.
The only PVP usage for mareauders will be killing ECM filled POSs in high sec.
Nope - my sentry Domi does more DPS, better damage choice, and can kill small stuff better. Oh, and it can be RR'd while doing so.
Still the sad panda waiting to see why Vargur was left with the ****** stick.
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:08:00 -
[7638] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: ... crappy vargur ...
Why would that be? The vargur deals no more damage than a maesltrom.
And the capability of moving of normal battleships result in effective SUPERIOR tracking to the bastion user.
The only PVP usage for mareauders will be killing ECM filled POSs in high sec. Nope - my sentry Domi does more DPS, better damage choice, and can kill small stuff better. Oh, and it can be RR'd while doing so. Still the sad panda waiting to see why Vargur was left with the ****** stick.
Every one of my 5 posts tells this, they simply don't get it. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:18:00 -
[7639] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Generally when I got stuck in my limited English vocabulary, somebody who understands what the hell has happened jumps out from the crowd and explains things in a neat way. This proved to be correct with explaining the relationship of "raiding" and "speed" in one of the past pages.
Let me explain in another way;
If you look at eve wiki, siege module's explanation is nearly as same as bastion's. It is for sure that bastion module is inspired from siege module.
When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules. When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.
Design team tried to find more fitting bonuses for BS class hulls. However, not being able to get RR, they are very pity against concentrated fire. CCP exactly wants this, they want Marauders die in a fleet combat when they're primaried. What they forgot is the price/performance ratio.
How much time it take for a dread in siege mode to die in a concencrated capital fire (except doomsday)? I know this is very relative to combat, but there is an idea. Let's say that other dreads giving the most damage to them, which are their price equavalent.
So the basic thinking is if let's say 10 non-siege dreads are shooting one siege dread, it is 10 isk shooting at 1 isk. If 10 BS' shooting at 1 marauder, it is 10 isk shooting at ~10 isk. But CCP's flaw here is that they want Marauders to go down fast! Just for this price/effectiveness ratio, I find their idea as flawed.
The problem is, these marauders are not dreads exactly, but penaltized in the same way as them when engaged into their specialized role, while having much lesser EHP than dreads in order to withstand BS fire. only you are wrong. you are not taking into account the range bonuses and 30%omni resist on shields armor and hull that increases its ehp. these are unique bonuses that are not found on siege or triage. also not the same penalties apply either (tracking and locked targets or no drones). that was my point about triage. just like triage is similar to but not the same as siege, bastion is similar but not the same as siege. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:21:00 -
[7640] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Shivanthar wrote:Generally when I got stuck in my limited English vocabulary, somebody who understands what the hell has happened jumps out from the crowd and explains things in a neat way. This proved to be correct with explaining the relationship of "raiding" and "speed" in one of the past pages.
Let me explain in another way;
If you look at eve wiki, siege module's explanation is nearly as same as bastion's. It is for sure that bastion module is inspired from siege module.
When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules. When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.
Design team tried to find more fitting bonuses for BS class hulls. However, not being able to get RR, they are very pity against concentrated fire. CCP exactly wants this, they want Marauders die in a fleet combat when they're primaried. What they forgot is the price/performance ratio.
How much time it take for a dread in siege mode to die in a concencrated capital fire (except doomsday)? I know this is very relative to combat, but there is an idea. Let's say that other dreads giving the most damage to them, which are their price equavalent.
So the basic thinking is if let's say 10 non-siege dreads are shooting one siege dread, it is 10 isk shooting at 1 isk. If 10 BS' shooting at 1 marauder, it is 10 isk shooting at ~10 isk. But CCP's flaw here is that they want Marauders to go down fast! Just for this price/effectiveness ratio, I find their idea as flawed.
The problem is, these marauders are not dreads exactly, but penaltized in the same way as them when engaged into their specialized role, while having much lesser EHP than dreads in order to withstand BS fire. only you are wrong. you are not taking into account the range bonuses and 30%omni resist on shields armor and hull that increases its ehp. these are unique bonuses that are not found on siege or triage. also not the same penalties apply either (tracking and locked targets or no drones). that was my point about triage. just like triage is similar to but not the same as siege, bastion is similar but not the same as siege.
And, that is the reason people call proposed Marauders as dreads because they more look like siege moduled dreads. My idea here is not to perma counter-argue you actually. Quish McQuiddy's post after ours tell exactly my point. Damage perspective is equal to crap.
And by telling "you're wrong", I accept it as a counter-argument to siege-bastion similarities, but not performance ratio analysis. |
|

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:26:00 -
[7641] - Quote
Another point is this: %30 shield resists ofc adds some ehp, but it is like saying "I'll give you a huge %30 increase in your 100$ salary!"
Designing them this way doesn't add needed buff. But it also doesn't fit very well. You can tank 2-3 ships OK (until you ran out cap boosters), but it is no way as accomplished as a fielded expensive BS hull. Either it has to hold more or it has to do more damage.
You saw my "fun" proposal, I bet. It might turn out to be bad idea at first sight, but people is shifting actually. Marauders need more damage when in bastion. Applied damage to be more exact. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:26:00 -
[7642] - Quote
you said they were 100% the same while that is a lie. just calling you out on you BS. |

Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax2
53
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:28:00 -
[7643] - Quote
It seems to me, that the ship has sailed, Marauder bonuses are what they are. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
600
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:33:00 -
[7644] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:
When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules. When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.
Yeah, but one is a T2 Battleship that now specializes in tanking and the other is not.
Just because both can enter some kind of reinforced mode doesn't mean that they're the same.
Look at all existing reinforced modes (a.k.a. bastion, siege, triage and the rorqal thingy) that are now available for ships, all they do is make your ship immoble and enhance any predefined ability the ship is supposed to pecialize in.
For Marauders that's tanking. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:33:00 -
[7645] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:you said they were 100% the same while that is a lie. just calling you out on you BS.
Omg you're still there.
I said you get %100 as same penalties as siege module.
Sorry to miss -%75 scan resolution. FFS |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
70
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:35:00 -
[7646] - Quote
Golem -
High - - Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile - Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile - Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile - Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile - Bastion Mode I - Tractor Beam II - Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I - Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Medium - - Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster or Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster - Shield Boost Amplifier II - Adaptive Invulnerability Field II - EM Ward Amplifier II - Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation or Adaptive Invulnerability Field II - Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation - Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation
Low - - Ballistic Control System II - Ballistic Control System II - Ballistic Control System II - Ballistic Control System II
Rig - - Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II - Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Drone - - Warrior x5 - Hammerhead x5
Better |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:40:00 -
[7647] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Shivanthar wrote:
When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules. When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.
Yeah, but one is a T2 Battleship that now specializes in tanking and the other is not. Just because both can enter some kind of reinforced mode doesn't mean that they're the same. Look at all existing reinforced modes (a.k.a. bastion, siege, triage and the rorqal thingy) that are now available for ships, all they do is make your ship immoble and enhance any predefined ability the ship is supposed to pecialize in. For Marauders that's tanking.
Dreads also get tanking bonus when in siege. But since their ehp is so high already, they get more of a active tanking bonus rather than resists. Check here
When in bastion mode I also propose damage projection bonus, it doesn't have to be %700 as dreads. %100 would be more realistic, however, I simply propose adding turret/launcher hardpoints to marauders since they will increase options for sandbox.
Edit: In the very first post:
Quote: In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
Which negates your argument of Quote:Yeah, but one is a T2 Battleship that now specializes in tanking and the other is not. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
600
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:45:00 -
[7648] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:Dreads also get tanking bonus when in siege. But since their ehp is so high already, they get more of a active tanking bonus rather than resists. Check hereWhen in bastion mode I also propose damage projection bonus, it doesn't have to be %700 as dreads. %100 would be more realistic, however, I simply propose adding turret/launcher hardpoints to marauders since they will increase options for sandbox.
As I said,
One is a T2 Battleship, highly spezialized, the very epitome of subcap tanking.
The other is not.
It does not matter how much the bastion module may look like a siege module, it's not a siege module and it should not be a siege module. Unless you want to use some kind of fuel for your bastion stuff. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:47:00 -
[7649] - Quote
Marauders in bastion mode are really headed as the same way as dreads.
Their seperation of concern is target oppurtunity. Dreads in siege mainly designed for high-hp structures, while marauders in bastion is getting design to go against other ships. Their module differences are simply reflection of this seperation. Nothing more.
I find Marauders projection is a little bit "lacking" in its current state. |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 16:24:00 -
[7650] - Quote
Hell ***** wrote:So much of this going on in this thread it almost makes me wish CCP would nerf the Marauders to hell and back just to give all you whiny argumentative little bitches something real to moan over. We're not whining, nor arguing. We're debating.
Like true internet mentlegen.
*smokes pipe* Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ~Attributed to both Jason Hutchison and John Benfield
|
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 16:33:00 -
[7651] - Quote
Kito Yularen wrote:Hell ***** wrote:So much of this going on in this thread it almost makes me wish CCP would nerf the Marauders to hell and back just to give all you whiny argumentative little bitches something real to moan over. We're not whining, nor arguing. We're debating. Like true internet mentlegen. *smokes pipe*
there is a reason why dev dont talk in here anymore. i think they realize there will always be whiners even if they did everything people ask for. |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 16:36:00 -
[7652] - Quote
Here's the problem with not giving Marauders a damage bonus of some sort in my honest opinion:
Any ship can put up a tank. Albeit not like the revamped Marauder, but still SOME tank. The problem is that so many fleets now put an emphasis on dps projection and mobility that without the ability to apply a dps that sets it apart from other sub-capital ships It will just be a sitting duck against probably 75% of the fleet docrtines in EVE. Harassment was it's supposedly designed role, but you don't use battleships to harass an enemy fleet. You use battleships to kill big things, because they're so slow. Take away ALL mobility, and anyone that so much as sniffs a bastioned Marauder will only see an expensive killmail. Harrassment should be left to fast and nimble ships like HAC's and AF's. Battleships are designed purely for two things: Damage and Tank. Not one, but both.
I know it's silly to just shrink down the siege module for Marauder use, but it needs some form of a damage buff, or else it will just be a pretty floating tank that can't do anything else. Reduce it's tracking, whatever. But I have to agree with the guy that said this current design just fits a glorified ECM killer role which can be done with drones or any other ship. Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ~Attributed to both Jason Hutchison and John Benfield
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
210
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:40:00 -
[7653] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? Outside of bastion, what is not useful in hulls you want to move a lot or while relaying on remote repair, the new ones are worse for most applications and the changes make the hulls pointless in nearly every of the old niches where they where competitive or slightly better than faction BS. I am not aware of any situations where a marauder is better than a faction/pirate when provided with what is currently live on TQ.
Spider tanking with other marauders and logis, Incursions(combining high utility with 90% webs), big cargo to move a lot of ammo and spare fitting with you(very useful for switching agents often or Incs), lower ammo use what is useful out of empire by reducing logistical tasks. Kronos in particular is better than a vindi as rail+sentry sniper, by the higher lock range and utility slots for drone links and better cap/fitting to handle mwd/active tank fittings plus rail. Paladin is overall comparable in performance with the NM and if you really utilize the web bonus a lot better up close. Vargur lacks something that separates it form the Mach(again posted it multiple times in the thread) and the Golem needs a makeover or trops need one, as it stands the CNR will be the better torp platform what is utterly bad from the game design pov.
Jake Sake wrote:The Djego wrote:Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? .... Obviously not. It just brings too many strings attached. Same bonuses on both ship types. Same models. Pretty similar role (just different approach to it).
Would you please define "strings attached"? The hulls are ingame for like 6 years now without anybody really complaining about them. It is a simple copy past job, keeping the hulls ingame as zero downsides. They don't have the same bonuses(both Kronos and Paladin have different ones), the Golem needs a specific makeover(more torp range, higher speed, torpedo explosion velocity bonus and maybe even another low for a nano), Vargur needs something that separate it form the mach better and the Kronos needs a extra sentry optimal/tracking bonus + 125/275 to stand out as a sentry/rail platform. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|

Placibo son Son
souchons corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:52:00 -
[7654] - Quote
My main can fly both a mach and a vargur very well.
Right now the big difference between that 2 is this
- Damage on the mach is higher - lock time(scan res) on the mach is much higher so lock time is faster and i can kill stuff faster - buffer is higher on the mach - signature radius is larger on the vargur (iam bigger i get locked faster) - mass is larger in the vargur - speed of the mach is higher - vargur has limited fitting options with lower power and cpu than the mach - vargur only has 2 rig slots - vargur shield bonus boosts a lot more, but is bigger and slower and takes more damage - vargur has nice tracking, but it takes longer to lock frigs and any advantage is diminished - vargur has more resists and less buffer
The only thing the vargur has that i like is a large cargo hold and some spare high slots for messing about with. then again i do have a noctis as well tho seeing as they designed that ship to do that role.
i dont understand why the vargur costs so much isk and so much skill points when the mach provides on par if not better results. i have seen and will welcome some of the changes introduced here,
When its all said and done. solo play will probs be slower, while over tanked for anything high sec. incursions wont take a vargur because as it stands it does less damage than the mach. I always though incursions was a type of "endgame" PVE for players. Then why would a ship which is designed for PVE, not be optimized for "endgame" PVE. ?
Common answer is that the mach done it first, it was quicker to get into and does more damage. Seems very silly to |

Kane Fenris
NWP
117
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 23:00:00 -
[7655] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Golem -
High - - Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise .... - Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Drone - - Warrior x5 - Hammerhead x5
Better
3x CN ballistics 2x RF painter use the utility highs for something usefull like a drone range amp or some other stuff fit ab+mjd or cap booster+Micro warp deadspace/officer mod em ward and adaptive.
then its better |

Sitting Bull Lakota
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 23:18:00 -
[7656] - Quote
I've never flown a marauder.
But, looking at the description, I would like to put my own thoughts on what I'd like to see in a pvp version of a ship "designed for prolonged deployment in hostile space."
1) A Bastion bonus to the range of warp disruptors, something like 100km or similar. Reasoning- Bastion makes an already big slow ship, bigger and immobile. It's hard to specialize in harassing tactics far behind enemy lines, if you are big and slow and can't hold down anything you try to take out.
2) Marauder roll ability to self fit in space, similar to carriers. Reasoning- A long deployment ship is going to need to be more versatile than the average spacechip. Having the ability to quickly (and without needing to deploy an easily scannable deployable depot) switch between combat, scanning, and travel fits would be useful.
3) Marauder roll ability to reprocess ore (albeit inefficiently)and manufacture ammunition and cap booster charges. Yeah it's wild and crazy, but I'm looking forward to a Marilyn's Marauders version of pvp that takes long deployments in hostile space to the extreme.
As long as y'all are begging for damage bonuses, speed boosts, and a complete overhaul for the vargur and torpedoes; I thought I'd go ahead and mail my Christmas wish list in as well.
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
554
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 02:16:00 -
[7657] - Quote
My wish is that we move on to the next group that's getting nerfed, er... "rebalanced". I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1068
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 02:32:00 -
[7658] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:My wish is that we move on to the next group that's getting nerfed, er... "rebalanced".
Black Ops! |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
555
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 02:55:00 -
[7659] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:My wish is that we move on to the next group that's getting nerfed, er... "rebalanced". Black Ops! I believe Pirates and Black Ops are up to bat next, yes. Er, did I say 'bat'? I meant next for review. Yes, 'review'...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1070
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 06:42:00 -
[7660] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:My wish is that we move on to the next group that's getting nerfed, er... "rebalanced". Black Ops! I believe Pirates and Black Ops are up to bat next, yes. Er, did I say 'bat'? I meant next for review. Yes, 'review'... 
Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"
Or something like that. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
558
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 06:50:00 -
[7661] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"
Or something like that. No kidding. If we thought 7500+ replies for Marauders was insane, wait until they remove one of the Machariel's guns and nerf the speed.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8557
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 08:21:00 -
[7662] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"
Or something like that. No kidding. If we thought 7500+ replies for Marauders was insane, wait until they remove one of the Machariel's guns and nerf the speed. 
Nothing compared to the shitstorm that will be the T3 teircide. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
601
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 08:31:00 -
[7663] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"
Or something like that. No kidding. If we thought 7500+ replies for Marauders was insane, wait until they remove one of the Machariel's guns and nerf the speed.  Nothing compared to the shitstorm that will be the T3 teircide.
Yeah, I'll stay away from THAT thread, everyone in there will wade through a mix of whine, plain old insults bordering on threats, mental diarrhea and other kind of shite. Neck deep. *shudder* Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
596
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 08:34:00 -
[7664] - Quote
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:I've never flown a marauder.
But, looking at the description, I would like to put my own thoughts on what I'd like to see in a pvp version of a ship "designed for prolonged deployment in hostile space."
1) A Bastion bonus to the range of warp disruptors, something like 100km or similar. Reasoning- Bastion makes an already big slow ship, bigger and immobile. It's hard to specialize in harassing tactics far behind enemy lines, if you are big and slow and can't hold down anything you try to take out.
2) Marauder roll ability to self fit in space, similar to carriers. Reasoning- A long deployment ship is going to need to be more versatile than the average spacechip. Having the ability to quickly (and without needing to deploy an easily scannable deployable depot) switch between combat, scanning, and travel fits would be useful.
3) Marauder roll ability to reprocess ore (albeit inefficiently)and manufacture ammunition and cap booster charges. Yeah it's wild and crazy, but I'm looking forward to a Marilyn's Marauders version of pvp that takes long deployments in hostile space to the extreme.
As long as y'all are begging for damage bonuses, speed boosts, and a complete overhaul for the vargur and torpedoes; I thought I'd go ahead and mail my Christmas wish list in as well.
As a point of order, carriers can't self fit, you have to use the ship next to you.
And EVERYONE that anyway with the mobile hangar bay job.
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
742
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 09:57:00 -
[7665] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"
Or something like that. No kidding. If we thought 7500+ replies for Marauders was insane, wait until they remove one of the Machariel's guns and nerf the speed. 
I think they will do only one or the other. If they do BOTH they will need to nerf the vindicator as well and then its a freakign snowball downhill. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
421
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 10:57:00 -
[7666] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Inb4 "OMFG CCP FU 5% NERF YOU MADE MACHARIEL WORTHLESS WTF OMFG WTFFFFFFF!!!!!!! I'M UNSUBBING ALL 300 OF MY ACCOUNTS PREPARE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS WTFFFFFFFFF"
Or something like that. No kidding. If we thought 7500+ replies for Marauders was insane, wait until they remove one of the Machariel's guns and nerf the speed.  Nothing compared to the shitstorm that will be the T3 teircide.
Nothing warms my heart more than the rich, rich fountains of tears that will result when that gets announced. It will be the most beautiful thread.
Also, these changes still seem pretty cool and I look forward to taking an arty Vargur out for a ride come patch day. |
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3027

|
Posted - 2013.11.14 11:27:00 -
[7667] - Quote
Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5.
This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module.
And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well  |
|

Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals Market and Contract PVP
84
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 11:30:00 -
[7668] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
ukiddinme.jpg what is High Energy Physx good for now then? And please dont say carebearing. |

GallowsCalibrator
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
423
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 11:32:00 -
[7669] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
And now I feel so much better about NOT training HEP4 and instead brushing up my gun skills. (Seriously, wasn't expecting that to stay as a requirement anyway) |

Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
258
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 11:46:00 -
[7670] - Quote
And we have a winner... Bazinga.. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 12:18:00 -
[7671] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
You forgot to change Kronos bandwidth to 75 btw.
It would make it able to compete with Paladin (but only due to selectable damage type) with 3 sentries.
Rail Kronos + 3 Wardens, 1142 dps. (5% hardwirings) Tachyon Paladin + no drones at all, 1146 dps. (5% hardwirings)
Pulse Paladin also deals more damage than Blaster Kronos past like, 15 KM or so. With tracking being pretty even due to Paladins monster capacitor. Paladin actually needs less cap mods than Kronos even with Tachs fitted.
Paladin also has better optimal by atleast 10 KM, and if you switch ammo for some "real sniping" the Paladin is even more favored.
Oh, and it's like 2% faster than the Paladin now. instead of like 10%. |

PavlikX
You are in da lock
109
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 12:22:00 -
[7672] - Quote
One thing annoyes me with new marauder idea entirely - you must calculate jump angles of MJD. Obviously there must be an option to do so automatically. With new skill (something like "MJD planning"). Anyone who like this jumps in modern version will not suffer too |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1072
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 12:24:00 -
[7673] - Quote
Doed wrote: You forgot to change Kronos bandwidth to 75 btw.
It would make it able to compete with Paladin (but only due to selectable damage type) with 3 sentries.
Rail Kronos + 3 Wardens, 1142 dps. (5% hardwirings) Tachyon Paladin + no drones at all, 1146 dps. (5% hardwirings)
Pulse Paladin also deals more damage than Blaster Kronos past like, 15 KM or so. With tracking being pretty even due to Paladins monster capacitor. Paladin actually needs less cap mods than Kronos even with Tachs fitted.
Paladin also has better optimal by atleast 10 KM, and if you switch ammo for some "real sniping" the Paladin is even more favored.
Oh, and it's like 2% faster than the Paladin now. instead of like 10%.
You aren't getting your sentries back - this has already been made explicitly clear. Try to understand it already.
The Paladin also deals the most useless damage type in the whole everything - EM. So your real DPS is much less than that stupid paper DPS you seem to worship.
PavlikX wrote:One thing annoyes me with new marauder idea entirely - you must calculate jump angles of MJD. Obviously there must be an option to do so automatically. With new skill (something like "MJD planning"). Anyone who like this jumps in modern version will not suffer too
You don't have to use the MJD and even if you do it's not that hard to common-sense your approximate angles anyway. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 12:35:00 -
[7674] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Doed wrote: You forgot to change Kronos bandwidth to 75 btw.
It would make it able to compete with Paladin (but only due to selectable damage type) with 3 sentries.
Rail Kronos + 3 Wardens, 1142 dps. (5% hardwirings) Tachyon Paladin + no drones at all, 1146 dps. (5% hardwirings)
Pulse Paladin also deals more damage than Blaster Kronos past like, 15 KM or so. With tracking being pretty even due to Paladins monster capacitor. Paladin actually needs less cap mods than Kronos even with Tachs fitted.
Paladin also has better optimal by atleast 10 KM, and if you switch ammo for some "real sniping" the Paladin is even more favored.
Oh, and it's like 2% faster than the Paladin now. instead of like 10%.
You aren't getting your sentries back - this has already been made explicitly clear. Try to understand it already. The Paladin also deals the most useless damage type in the whole everything - EM. So your real DPS is much less than that stupid paper DPS you seem to worship. PavlikX wrote:One thing annoyes me with new marauder idea entirely - you must calculate jump angles of MJD. Obviously there must be an option to do so automatically. With new skill (something like "MJD planning"). Anyone who like this jumps in modern version will not suffer too You don't have to use the MJD and even if you do it's not that hard to common-sense your approximate angles anyway.
Running either Kronos or Paladin you only want to shoot what it's best at. so Kronos isn't any worse off in that department. |

SOL Ranger
SOL.
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 12:47:00 -
[7675] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
You shall henceforth be referred to as CCP Griefer.
The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
|

Stray Denton
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 13:29:00 -
[7676] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
I really and I mean really hate you now |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
603
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 13:59:00 -
[7677] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion...
You shall henceforth be referred to as CCP Griefer.
Stray Denton wrote:I really and I mean really hate you now
I didn't even care until I read your messages, thanks, you saved my day.  Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Hicksimus
Hyperion Corporation
202
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 14:43:00 -
[7678] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
Tune in to my features and ideas thread where I suggest that each level of this skill trained should do something horrible to you.
You monster. Do you have it? |

HagNasty
Tetragorn SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 14:51:00 -
[7679] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
And this is not even on Sisi. Why is it not on Sisi? |

Stray Denton
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:20:00 -
[7680] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:SOL Ranger wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion...
You shall henceforth be referred to as CCP Griefer. Stray Denton wrote:I really and I mean really hate you now I didn't even care until I read your messages, thanks, you saved my day. 
Did I mention I also hate saving people's days :P
|
|

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:38:00 -
[7681] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module. And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well 
Thank you very much Ytterbium for (perhaps) listening to my suggestion. This makes a lot of sense considering that Marauders are being rebalanced with Bastion very much in mind, and High Energy Physics was a completely random skill to be paired with Bastion anyway.
As opposed to the bright pilot who said "you can always undock and fly without Bastion"... 
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8559
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 18:54:00 -
[7682] - Quote
Just as I finish training... Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 19:22:00 -
[7683] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Doed wrote: You forgot to change Kronos bandwidth to 75 btw.
It would make it able to compete with Paladin (but only due to selectable damage type) with 3 sentries.
Rail Kronos + 3 Wardens, 1142 dps. (5% hardwirings) Tachyon Paladin + no drones at all, 1146 dps. (5% hardwirings)
Pulse Paladin also deals more damage than Blaster Kronos past like, 15 KM or so. With tracking being pretty even due to Paladins monster capacitor. Paladin actually needs less cap mods than Kronos even with Tachs fitted.
Paladin also has better optimal by atleast 10 KM, and if you switch ammo for some "real sniping" the Paladin is even more favored.
Oh, and it's like 2% faster than the Paladin now. instead of like 10%.
You aren't getting your sentries back - this has already been made explicitly clear. Try to understand it already. The Paladin also deals the most useless damage type in the whole everything - EM. So your real DPS is much less than that stupid paper DPS you seem to worship. PavlikX wrote:One thing annoyes me with new marauder idea entirely - you must calculate jump angles of MJD. Obviously there must be an option to do so automatically. With new skill (something like "MJD planning"). Anyone who like this jumps in modern version will not suffer too You don't have to use the MJD and even if you do it's not that hard to common-sense your approximate angles anyway.
Why is EM damage useless? |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8559
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 19:56:00 -
[7684] - Quote
Endaashi wrote: Why is EM damage useless?
Guristas. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 20:12:00 -
[7685] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Endaashi wrote: Why is EM damage useless?
Guristas.
or angel |

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 20:14:00 -
[7686] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Endaashi wrote: Why is EM damage useless?
Guristas. or angel
Are their EM resistances that high to make it useless? |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8559
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 20:17:00 -
[7687] - Quote
Also most armour tankers get big base resists vs EM.
Its not useless but you don't get that EFT damage output most of the time Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 20:53:00 -
[7688] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Also most armour tankers get big base resists vs EM.
Its not useless but you don't get that EFT damage output most of the time
Makes sense. ty for the explanation |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 21:23:00 -
[7689] - Quote
So, in short.
Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.
And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.
Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".
And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments. |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 22:17:00 -
[7690] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:My wish is that we move on to the next group that's getting nerfed, er... "rebalanced". Black Ops!
I vote Black Ops get to use Covert Ops Cloaks.
I vote over and over and over and over again. Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ~Attributed to both Jason Hutchison and John Benfield
|
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
65
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 00:04:00 -
[7691] - Quote
Doed wrote:So, in short.
Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.
And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.
Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".
And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments. If you had even the faintest clue about pve you'd know that some rats, especially Angel, guirista and serp have high EM resistances, so high that the EFT damage gets cut in HALF.
That said the palladin is god mode in Amarr space with sansha and blood rats. It does ok against serp since they are moderately weak against thermal. |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 00:36:00 -
[7692] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Doed wrote:So, in short.
Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.
And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.
Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".
And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments. If you had even the faintest clue about pve you'd know that some rats, especially Angel, guirista and serp have high EM resistances, so high that the EFT damage gets cut in HALF. That said the palladin is god mode in Amarr space with sansha and blood rats. It does ok against serp since they are moderately weak against thermal.
High bounty Sansha and Blood already cut your EFT damage by over half in a Palaidin, Are you clueless or just terrible at math?
To an angel Seraphim(Highest bounty Angel BS) it'd do 288.41 DPS (1146 dps before resists) and 391.55 to an Angel Commander(Lowest bounty angel BS)
That's 25.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the Seraphim and 34.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the commander, half is 50%, not 25.16% or 34.16%.
To a Sansha's Tyrant(Top bounty Sansha BS) it'd do 546.91 dps which is 47.72338568935428% of EFT damage, this is already less than half ? how terrible at math are you?
Also, Kronos also sucks vs Angels(Not as bad as the paladin, but with so much lower dps it's actually not that huge of a difference), and it's worse vs drones and pretty even vs mercs compared to the Paladin. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
65
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 00:43:00 -
[7693] - Quote
Doed wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Doed wrote:So, in short.
Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.
And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.
Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".
And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments. If you had even the faintest clue about pve you'd know that some rats, especially Angel, guirista and serp have high EM resistances, so high that the EFT damage gets cut in HALF. That said the palladin is god mode in Amarr space with sansha and blood rats. It does ok against serp since they are moderately weak against thermal. High bounty Sansha and Blood already cut your EFT damage by over half in a Palaidin, Are you clueless or just terrible at math? To an angel Seraphim(Highest bounty Angel BS) it'd do 288.41 DPS (1146 dps before resists) and 391.55 to an Angel Commander(Lowest bounty angel BS) That's 25.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the Seraphim and 34.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the commander, half is 50%, not 25.16% or 34.16%. To a Sansha's Tyrant(Top bounty Sansha BS) it'd do 546.91 dps which is 47.72338568935428% of EFT damage, this is already less than half ? how terrible at math are you? Also, Kronos also sucks vs Angels(Not as bad as the paladin, but with so much lower dps it's actually not that huge of a difference), and it's worse vs drones and pretty even vs mercs compared to the Paladin.
EFT warriors make me giggle.
|

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 01:00:00 -
[7694] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Doed wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Doed wrote:So, in short.
Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.
And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.
Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".
And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments. If you had even the faintest clue about pve you'd know that some rats, especially Angel, guirista and serp have high EM resistances, so high that the EFT damage gets cut in HALF. That said the palladin is god mode in Amarr space with sansha and blood rats. It does ok against serp since they are moderately weak against thermal. High bounty Sansha and Blood already cut your EFT damage by over half in a Palaidin, Are you clueless or just terrible at math? To an angel Seraphim(Highest bounty Angel BS) it'd do 288.41 DPS (1146 dps before resists) and 391.55 to an Angel Commander(Lowest bounty angel BS) That's 25.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the Seraphim and 34.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the commander, half is 50%, not 25.16% or 34.16%. To a Sansha's Tyrant(Top bounty Sansha BS) it'd do 546.91 dps which is 47.72338568935428% of EFT damage, this is already less than half ? how terrible at math are you? Also, Kronos also sucks vs Angels(Not as bad as the paladin, but with so much lower dps it's actually not that huge of a difference), and it's worse vs drones and pretty even vs mercs compared to the Paladin. EFT warriors make me giggle.
I was just proving how dumb your reply was.
And EVE PVE isn't exactly hard. and I'm fairly sure my setups are better at killing red crosses than yours. |

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 02:06:00 -
[7695] - Quote
Doed wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Doed wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Doed wrote:So, in short.
Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.
And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.
Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".
And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments. If you had even the faintest clue about pve you'd know that some rats, especially Angel, guirista and serp have high EM resistances, so high that the EFT damage gets cut in HALF. That said the palladin is god mode in Amarr space with sansha and blood rats. It does ok against serp since they are moderately weak against thermal. High bounty Sansha and Blood already cut your EFT damage by over half in a Palaidin, Are you clueless or just terrible at math? To an angel Seraphim(Highest bounty Angel BS) it'd do 288.41 DPS (1146 dps before resists) and 391.55 to an Angel Commander(Lowest bounty angel BS) That's 25.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the Seraphim and 34.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the commander, half is 50%, not 25.16% or 34.16%. To a Sansha's Tyrant(Top bounty Sansha BS) it'd do 546.91 dps which is 47.72338568935428% of EFT damage, this is already less than half ? how terrible at math are you? Also, Kronos also sucks vs Angels(Not as bad as the paladin, but with so much lower dps it's actually not that huge of a difference), and it's worse vs drones and pretty even vs mercs compared to the Paladin. EFT warriors make me giggle. I was just proving how dumb your reply was. And EVE PVE isn't exactly hard. and I'm fairly sure my setups are better at killing red crosses than yours.
Was curious where you got the NPC resists from
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
573
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 03:01:00 -
[7696] - Quote
I finally found a PvE role for the Golem where its unique traits will allow it to outperform all other Caldari battleships. I'm fairly certain this wasn't intended with the revamp, but I'll take it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dominus Alterai
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
77
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 03:29:00 -
[7697] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5.
whelp, at least I'll get more data cores....oh wait... Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
573
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 03:46:00 -
[7698] - Quote
Electrique Wizard wrote:what is High Energy Physx good for now then? And please dont say carebearing.
LMFAO. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 05:44:00 -
[7699] - Quote
Doed wrote:I was just proving how dumb your reply was.
And EVE PVE isn't exactly hard. and I'm fairly sure my setups are better at killing red crosses than yours. Go forth and report some actual performance figures then. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
577
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 09:16:00 -
[7700] - Quote
I thought (hoped) they'd finally changed the base color on the Golem. After the live event, apparently not. Blech. When are we going to get a "paint shop" option already? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8565
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 13:46:00 -
[7701] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I thought (hoped) they'd finally changed the base color on the Golem. After the live event, apparently not. Blech. When are we going to get a "paint shop" option already?
When they deem the world ready for pink thorax fleets. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
577
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 14:59:00 -
[7702] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:When they deem the world ready for pink thorax fleets. I was thinking pink Iterons would be more popular... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Temuken Radzu
Bendebeukers Northern Associates.
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:07:00 -
[7703] - Quote
I have been trying out the new marauders on sisi in lv 4 missions and i think its incredible
[Rubicon Kronos, El Destructo] Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Core B-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Core B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Core A-Type Large Armor Repairer Expanded Cargohold II
Large Micro Jump Drive Core X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Bastion Module I Salvager II Salvager II Salvager II
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Navy cap booster 800 Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Salvage drone x5 2x Mobile tractor units
1595 dps with null ammo and drones
Have 2 mobile tractor units in your cargo to pull all wrecks close to you and salvage while you shredd anything apart with your blasters The Cargo expander is to get more space for your loot and the tractor units Tanks any lv 4 and if things get hairy you can always use the Microjumpdrive to get out of harms way.
The only thing i would like to change is that the tractor bonus the marauders get should be changed to a salvage bonus, like a 400% salvager range bonus. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8569
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:17:00 -
[7704] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:When they deem the world ready for pink thorax fleets. I was thinking pink Iterons would be more popular...
You get more thrust out of a rax. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:04:00 -
[7705] - Quote
Temuken Radzu wrote:I have been trying out the new marauders on sisi in lv 4 missions and i think its incredible
Expanded Cargohold II
That's funny.
 |

Temuken Radzu
Bendebeukers Northern Associates.
58
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:33:00 -
[7706] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Temuken Radzu wrote:I have been trying out the new marauders on sisi in lv 4 missions and i think its incredible
Expanded Cargohold II
That's funny. 
Well the extra 400 cargo you get is realy usefull if you want to have 2 Remote tractor units in your bay. Drop one near you and microjumpdrive 100 to drop the second. Jump between them to salvage and loot. |

Ju0ZaS
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
31
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:46:00 -
[7707] - Quote
Disappointed... Well, looks like these marauders are going to turn out still fairly useless, even in their new added role. They should had kept the 7.5% per level rep/boost bonus, gave marauders proper t2 resistances, then instead of bastion giving that silly 30% resistance bonus they should add made it give 100% damage. Would had made marauder hulls a bit more tanky by themselves and made marauders with bastion pretty much tank the same dps, and add a nice dps increase, somewhere around vindicator level, which would be suitable for shooting **** stars in high sec in a subcap. Dps would be around 2k, no where near 13k - 15k dps that a Moros can produce. I honestly don't understand why CCP are afraid to push the buffs. Better make them good or slightly op, something you can fix later, than almost useless tanks that are only good as sponges soaking enemy dps. Oh well... Guess when I'll need to bash a POS I'll just use a sentry drone boat to avoid hindrance from jams and keep my ships worth far less in case a blob decides to show up that would be able to out-dps a marauders tank anyways. They're just, sigh.. not good enough to be worth putting out there and risked considering you'll probably want to at least make a marauder worth 2 bil +, with deadspace mods and **** to make their tank bigger. Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp? |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:51:00 -
[7708] - Quote
Temuken Radzu wrote:Spc One wrote:Temuken Radzu wrote:I have been trying out the new marauders on sisi in lv 4 missions and i think its incredible
Expanded Cargohold II
That's funny.  Well the extra 400 cargo you get is realy usefull if you want to have 2 Remote tractor units in your bay. Drop one near you and microjumpdrive 100 km to drop the second to keep them from grabbing each others wrecks. Jump between them to salvage and loot. Because loot that drops in level 4's is 400 million worth.
 |

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:14:00 -
[7709] - Quote
Temuken Radzu wrote:I have been trying out the new marauders on sisi in lv 4 missions and i think its incredible
[Rubicon Kronos, El Destructo] Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Core B-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Core B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Core A-Type Large Armor Repairer Expanded Cargohold II
Large Micro Jump Drive Core X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Bastion Module I Salvager II Salvager II Salvager II
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Navy cap booster 800 Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Salvage drone x5 2x Mobile tractor units
1595 dps with null ammo and drones
Have 2 mobile tractor units in your cargo to pull all wrecks close to you and salvage while you shredd anything apart with your blasters The Cargo expander is to get more space for your loot and the tractor units Tanks any lv 4 and if things get hairy you can always use the Microjumpdrive to get out of harms way.
The only thing i would like to change is that the tractor bonus the marauders get should be changed to a salvage bonus, like a 400% salvager range bonus.
How did you get 1595 with null and drones?
Using Hammerheads, all level 5 skills and the two DPS implants SS-906 and LH-1006, I get 1309. |

Temuken Radzu
Bendebeukers Northern Associates.
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:36:00 -
[7710] - Quote
Endaashi wrote:
How did you get 1595 with null and drones?
Using Hammerheads, all level 5 skills and the two DPS implants SS-906 and LH-1006, I get 1309.
Sorry i meant with void ammo i get 1595 dps, i corrected it |
|

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:41:00 -
[7711] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5. [..]
Why Golem doesnt have build in bonus from EW module and is forced to waste med slot to be usefull?
Why Bastion module got double range bonus on turrets (25% to optimal and 25% to falloff) while only partiary range bonus on missiles?
Does Bastion module makes Golem invulnerable against defender missiles same as makes rest marauders invulnerable against tracking disruptors?
Why Golem is the only marauder who doesnt have damage bonus or rof bonus (despite fact that for example Vargur can change damage types and got rof bonus)? |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:43:00 -
[7712] - Quote
Looking forward to finding a blinged up marauder in WH space soon.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:48:00 -
[7713] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Why Golem is the only marauder who doesnt have damage bonus or rof bonus (despite fact that for example Vargur can change damage types and got rof bonus)?
Raven has 6 launchers and 25% RoF.
That makes 6 * 1.3333334 = 8
Golem has 4 * 2 = 8
So same as raven.
|

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
596
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:52:00 -
[7714] - Quote
sad to see golem still has TP bonus in patch notes ..... should be explosion velocity Ytterbium come on.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:29:00 -
[7715] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Why Golem is the only marauder who doesnt have damage bonus or rof bonus (despite fact that for example Vargur can change damage types and got rof bonus)?
Raven has 6 launchers and 25% RoF. That makes 6 * 1.3333334 = 8 Golem has 4 * 2 = 8 So same as raven. If u trying to proove something, u are wrong:
Tempest with 4x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 336dps Vargur with 4x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 359dps (so overall 7% increase in damage)
Apocalypse with 8x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 364dps Paladin with 4x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 455dps (so overall 25% increase in damage)
Megathron with 7x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 373dps Kronos with 4x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 400 dps (so overall 7% increase in damage)
Raven with 6x Cruise Launcher T2 and Scourge got 362dps Golem with 4x Cruise Launchers T2 and Scourge got 362 dps (so overall 0% increase in damage) +fact that u need to wait for missiles to reach target |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
61
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 20:04:00 -
[7716] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Spc One wrote:Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Why Golem is the only marauder who doesnt have damage bonus or rof bonus (despite fact that for example Vargur can change damage types and got rof bonus)?
Raven has 6 launchers and 25% RoF. That makes 6 * 1.3333334 = 8 Golem has 4 * 2 = 8 So same as raven. Lets compare damage differences between T1 and T2 hulls:Tempest with 6x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 336dps Vargur with 4x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 359dps (so overall 7% increase in damage) Apocalypse with 8x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 364dps Paladin with 4x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 455dps (so overall 25% increase in damage) Megathron with 7x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 373dps Kronos with 4x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 400 dps (so overall 7% increase in damage) Raven with 6x Cruise Launcher T2 and Scourge got 362dps Golem with 4x Cruise Launchers T2 and Scourge got 362 dps ( nothing) +fact that u need to wait for missiles to reach target and waste med slot for something that should be build in If we talk about range difference:Tempest with 6x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 30+44km range Vargur with 4x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 30+66km range ( 22km better falloff) Apocalypse with 8x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 45+25km Paladin with 4x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 45+25km (no difference in range, but still 25% more damage) Megathron with 7x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 36+30km range Kronos with 4x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 36+38km range (8km better falloff) Raven with 6x Torpedo Launcher T2 and Scourge got 30km Golem with 4x Torpedo Launchers T2 and Scourge got 30km ( nothing, no damage increase, no range increase) +fact that u need to wait for missiles to reach target and waste med slot for something that should be build in
Bastion bonuses are GARBAGE for Vargur and Golem, most lame crap to be changed in the last year or so. Missile velocity bonus needs to be alot higher or not stacking penalized, Vargur doesn't benefit from bastion falloff anyway as you already fit 3 tcs (yeah ok, it gains 6.5% more falloff, woo!!)
|

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 20:08:00 -
[7717] - Quote
Doed wrote: Bastion bonuses are GARBAGE for Vargur and Golem, most lame crap to be changed in the last year or so. Missile velocity bonus needs to be alot higher or not stacking penalized, Vargur doesn't benefit from bastion falloff anyway as you already fit 3 tcs (yeah ok, it gains 6.5% more falloff, woo!!)
Thats true + fact that we dont even have range mods for missiles.
|

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 20:22:00 -
[7718] - Quote
Patch notes are up. Looks like there won't be any more tweaking of the stats. That's just sad |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1477
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 20:27:00 -
[7719] - Quote
Endaashi wrote:Patch notes are up. Looks like there won't be any more tweaking of the stats. That's just sad
they are playing the wait and see game.
expect if there are any changes by 1.1 release
personally i am more disapointed about the SOA ships having terrible fittings and lackluster dps all in the name of cloaks. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
61
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 21:17:00 -
[7720] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:Doed wrote: Bastion bonuses are GARBAGE for Vargur and Golem, most lame crap to be changed in the last year or so. Missile velocity bonus needs to be alot higher or not stacking penalized, Vargur doesn't benefit from bastion falloff anyway as you already fit 3 tcs (yeah ok, it gains 6.5% more falloff, woo!!)
Well we dont even have range mods for missiles.
I was thinknig dual Hydraulic Bay Thrusters and Torps, only 56% benefit from bastion on top of that yielding you about 46km range with navy torps... which is just lame when you're "rooted" in place. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
580
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 21:30:00 -
[7721] - Quote
Endaashi wrote:Patch notes are up. Looks like there won't be any more tweaking of the stats. That's just sad Wasn't that obvious last week already...? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Endaashi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 21:35:00 -
[7722] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Endaashi wrote:Patch notes are up. Looks like there won't be any more tweaking of the stats. That's just sad Wasn't that obvious last week already...?
Only obvious to you because you're delirious from all your time traveling |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1477
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 21:52:00 -
[7723] - Quote
Endaashi wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Endaashi wrote:Patch notes are up. Looks like there won't be any more tweaking of the stats. That's just sad Wasn't that obvious last week already...? Only obvious to you because you're delirious from all your time traveling
Are you Sarah Conor? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
580
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 22:02:00 -
[7724] - Quote
Endaashi wrote:Only obvious to you because you're delirious from all your time traveling I'll be back. Last week.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Maxxor Brutor
Imperial Collective
8
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 00:21:00 -
[7725] - Quote
Nothing in the patch log about the target painter cycle changes, hope it's still on (posted here since it was weasled into the marauder changes).
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 10:22:00 -
[7726] - Quote
The questions are coming from Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink. Awesome name by the way. I hope there is another char on your acount with a short name. Loggin in and to be forst to type in the nam of this one would be so awefull
1. Why Golem doesn't have build in bonus from EW module and is forced to waste med/tank slot to be usefull?
Nobody forces you. Golem is a good pve ship and it becomes better with tp bonus.
2. Why Bastion module got double range bonus on turrets (25% to optimal and 25% to falloff) while only 25% to missile speed (why its not 50% or at least 37,5% since missiles doesn't have falloff)?
Those questions mostly come from people with no idea of guns in the game. in the end it would be fair if it would be like 25% optimal 25% missile speed and 50% fall off. You know that the Golem is the only marauder with selectable t2 damage types. Even vargur is then stuck in explosive.
Vargur has high damage loss over distance. Paladin is stuck in EM. Kronos in thermal kinetik. Golem sucks with torps but out ranges everything with damage changing cruise missiles.
3. Does Bastion module makes Golem invulnerable against defender missiles same as makes rest marauders invulnerable against tracking disruptors?
I used a cruise/bastion golem in around 10 missions on sissi and the damage loss through defenders is negligible. You do the same dps to all npcs and over all distances. If this is not a big advantage.
4. Why Golem is the only marauder who doesnt have damage bonus or rof bonus
Because you can use all T2 damage types to increase damage to the lowest resist. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 11:31:00 -
[7727] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote: Nobody forces you. Golem is a good pve ship and it becomes better with tp bonus.
looks like u are new in this game since u are thinking that u dont really need proper ship bonuses
>>> Those questions mostly come [...] *stuff* >>> U really dont know what u are saying dont you?. Because otherwise u would know that every turret can damage stuff beyond optimal range and boosting both optimal and fallof increases effective range such ship can deal damage far beyond any missile ship. Having 8km optimal and 8km falloff more on turrets is allways better than just 8km optimal on missiles since in case of short range missiles like torpedoes your enemy can just set orbit at 1km beyond your missile optimal and u are dead. Doing same thing against turreted ship wont help u at all since he will catch u anyway. Thats why missiles are so easy avoidable (even long range ones since at some point u can just warp away before they will hit u).
>>> Vargur has high damage loss over distance. >>> do u even know how projectiles work? also its better to have damage loss across 60km than no damage at all
>>> Paladin is stuck in EM >>> Paladin is outdpsing this small drawback having considerably better dps than other ships
>>> Kronos in thermal kinetik >>> and its... bad? have u ever played Kronos?
>>> Golem sucks with torps but out ranges everything with damage changing cruise missiles >>> Sniping with cruise missiles? really? another hint for u: check how long cruise missiles will fly to target 200k away and then check how fast this target will warp away. No one is using cruises in pvp and even for pve at certain distance u will launch another wave of cruises while previous is still flying to target and its a matter of how much of them will be destroyed by defender missiles. After this sometimes u will loose dps since previous wave was enought, and sometimes u wont since next wave was needed. Not even talking about fact that Bastion Module isnt making your weapons invulnerable to defenders but makes turreted marauders invulnerable to tracking disruptors.
>>> I used a cruise/bastion golem in around 10 missions on sissi and the damage loss through defenders is negligible. You do the same dps to all npcs and over all distances. If this is not a big advantage. >>> How did u managed that? watching missiles explosions in space?
>>> Because you can use all T2 damage types to increase damage to the lowest resist >>> ??? Are u serious?. Do u really think that people are flying with holes in their resists?. Shooting armor ships with for example Kinetic or Thermal is most of time far more viable since they got Explo hole plugged well. Also u failed to realize that switching damage types makes your ship not dps at all for 10 seconds, and even if u change damage type u still dont know if u choose right. If u really want that explosion damage on Kronos u can allways grab explo drones. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 13:52:00 -
[7728] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:2. Why Bastion module got double range bonus on turrets (25% to optimal and 25% to falloff) while only 25% to missile speed (why its not 50% or at least 37,5% since missiles doesnt have falloff)?
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:U really dont know what u are saying dont you?. Because otherwise u would know that every turret can damage stuff beyond optimal range and boosting both optimal and fallof increases effective range such ship can deal damage far beyond any missile ship. Having 8km optimal and 8km falloff more on turrets is allways better than just 8km optimal on missiles[....] It seems you not only didn't complete your math lessons but also don't know your ships and weapons. We're not talking about turret's 8km optimal + 8km falloff vs. 8km of missile range. Comparing blasters with torps, before any bonuses are applied it's 4.5km + 12.5km vs. 19.4km (according to PYFA, blasters with antimatter). Going long range we have 36+30 vs. 148km on rails (with antimatter again) vs. cruises. Now apply those respective 25% bonuses and then go back here to discuss whether bastion bonuses are fair or not. |

Pirsu Malami
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 14:48:00 -
[7729] - Quote
About the paladin animation... disappointing, I would have expected the top plates to fold out and make it look like it was anchoring, not just the bottom open a bit... i'm sad  |

Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
651
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 17:03:00 -
[7730] - Quote
Pirsu Malami wrote:About the paladin animation... disappointing, I would have expected the top plates to fold out and make it look like it was anchoring, not just the bottom open a bit... i'm sad 
Golem is pretty disappointing as well.. |
|

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 18:01:00 -
[7731] - Quote
if golem is so disappointing then why the hell are the prices for one so high? it is 1.4 billion at rens and 1.2 at jita. the other marauders are around 1b. i think golem will be the strongest marauder with bastion mode. it is the only marader that doesnt lose dps due to being stationary. people who are complaintin just dont know how to fly a missile boat |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 18:28:00 -
[7732] - Quote
Idk if u are trolling or just made a reply in wrong topic mate. We were not talking about blasters at all. There is also no logic behind comparing railguns with short range ammo and cruise missiles. One of biggest difference in missiles is that they need time to reach their target (while turrets are dealing damage with no delay). You could very well compare Rails with Spike (130km optimal + 30km falloff) and Torps, there is no logic behind such comparsion also. Every weapon systems got different optimals, damage, tracking or explosion velocity. Whats same is the environment u are, in case of marauders - mainly pve activities. Now find whats the average orbit of typical npcs and u will have your answer why we were talking about weapon systems with at least 30km optimal. In case u were thinking about pvp - try finding single battle from last.. 5 years where fleet setup was mainly ravens with cruise missiles. You wont find anything. Then check popularity of ships like Talos or Rokh, and then check their hi slot fittings. If u are asking why no one is using cruise missiles in pvp while railguns are a very viable weapon systems, answer lies here https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missiles
Dont get me wrong mate but if 3 kills and 9 looses is all what u achieved in EvE then u should really undock and check some of your ideas in space (not saying they are all wrong) http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=hmskrecik
If u want u can see my setups too http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Xqpvqsvs+Qr%27atyuqink |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 18:48:00 -
[7733] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote: Idk if u are trolling or just made a reply in wrong topic mate. We were not talking about blasters at all. There is also no logic behind comparing railguns with short range ammo and cruise missiles.
I'm not comparing performance of weapons. I just used them as an example of effective range. The point is, both in case of guns and of missile bastion gives 25% bonus to range. So if you keep talking about "double bonus" to guns then either you are trolling or you're just confused.
Edit: I can't care less about KB stats (should be 0 vs. 9 but my friend submitted those kills before I could protest). If you think that whatever position you hold there gives you more merit regarding simple math then... well... think again. |

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
20
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 20:00:00 -
[7734] - Quote
Well if u would press the undock button from time to time, u would know that some ships are operating mainly in their optimals and some are relying on their falloff. Some guns got plenty of optimal and not really much of falloff, some got not bad optimal and decent falloff. U are saying alot about percentages, but u are forgeting that 25% from A is not equal to 25% of B (one ship will gain 8km while other will gain 20km of their operating range). Also not every weapon systems is viable on marauders even if your EFT says otherwise. Some of them can have viable results in short and long range weapon systems, but some dont. One of such ship is the Golem with reasons pointed earlier. No one (or almost no one) uses Cruise Missiles in pvp, and Golem in general was created for Torpedoes (but u dont know this since u never flew the Golem or missile ship in general). Maybe its not the best way of balancing stuff but since we dont even have range mods for missiles (like low slot target painters), thoose numbers in Bastion module ccp thinks we should grab and go pew pew, are really important in Golem case. As of turrets, there is plenty of areas where for example 1400mm howies are viable but Cruise missiles are not. Try shooting inty moving towards u from like 50k with cruises, gl with that, but with howies u can pop him in one volley.
p.s regarding your theories in open space, trying to pvp with 3 cap rechargers or mixing shield flux coils with blasters and no prop mods is not the smartest way you know. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 21:10:00 -
[7735] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:[wall of text] I do happen to press undock button from time to time.
To keep ourselves focused, I'm discussing only about your remarks regarding bastion range bonuses. Bastion adds 25% effective range to ALL weapons, whether you admit this fact or not. Missiles have increased speed, which means that despite longer range the flight time is not increased.
And regarding your comments about guns, I used all of them so I know a bit or two about both optimal and falloff, that's why I understand why bastion had to apply bonus to both attributes.
Quote:p.s regarding your theories in open space, trying to pvp with 3 cap rechargers or mixing shield flux coils with blasters and no prop mods is not the smartest way you know. Honestly I have no idea what are you referring to but whatever. No matter how much I suck at PVP won't change a bit the fact how much you did not get simple calculations. |

M1k3y Koontz
thorn project Surely You're Joking
405
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 02:04:00 -
[7736] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:[The Golem] is the only marader that doesnt lose dps due to being stationary.
Wait, what?
No ship LOSES DPS because it isn't moving... are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that.
Golem will be the best because it will be an ECM immune NRaven. Because **** ECM RATS!!! (I haven't done any Guristas ratting in over a YEAR and those things are still the single most annoying thing I've ever dealt with in EVE... other than "solo" players who bring a falcon alt, but that's a rant for another thread.) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Shivanthar
Thrilling Institution of TaTas Permanent Mental Syndrome
51
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 07:03:00 -
[7737] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
... are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that...
Shhhh! There are angry Vargur pilots around here, who're about to loose this ability at some degree in Rubicon.
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 07:40:00 -
[7738] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that. My rail Kronos would like to have a word with you.
Yes, I have tried. No, it doesn't allow to kill orbiting frigs and dessies. Yes, it still helps with cruisers and up. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
778
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 08:15:00 -
[7739] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Mer88 wrote:[The Golem] is the only marader that doesnt lose dps due to being stationary. Wait, what? No ship LOSES DPS because it isn't moving... are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that. Golem will be the best because it will be an ECM immune NRaven. Because **** ECM RATS!!!(I haven't done any Guristas ratting in over a YEAR and those things are still the single most annoying thing I've ever dealt with in EVE... other than "solo" players who bring a falcon alt, but that's a rant for another thread.)
Only if you never tried! A vargur could match the non MWD Speed of non angel frigates and coudl even overtake most cruisers.
Stop stop typing 3!#!#!!
540 ms is more than enough to AB around avoiding the enemy transversal "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
8590
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 08:47:00 -
[7740] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that. My rail Kronos would like to have a word with you. Yes, I have tried. No, it doesn't allow to kill orbiting frigs and dessies. Yes, it still helps with cruisers and up.
Blaster kronos will track npc frigs all the way down to 10km Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|

passey
BroSquad Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 09:25:00 -
[7741] - Quote
Blaster kronos or rail kronos then?
Can get about 60km max range with my setup on blasters.
do u reckon that will be enough?
Gets about 1,100 with long range ammo 1400dps uo to 30km |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 09:32:00 -
[7742] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:hmskrecik wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that. My rail Kronos would like to have a word with you. Yes, I have tried. No, it doesn't allow to kill orbiting frigs and dessies. Yes, it still helps with cruisers and up. Blaster kronos will track npc frigs all the way down to 10km Well, it will, it does and it did. I'm talking about TQ version where railguns are a bit more versatile when running missions. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
778
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 09:58:00 -
[7743] - Quote
passey wrote:Blaster kronos or rail kronos then?
Can get about 60km max range with my setup on blasters.
do u reckon that will be enough?
Gets about 1,100 with long range ammo 1400dps uo to 30km
The only real boost the marauders got was the MDJ cycle time.
So If you are very good at triangulation, blasters are OK, otherwsie the easiest way to use them effectively is with rails. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
62
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 14:25:00 -
[7744] - Quote
passey wrote:Blaster kronos or rail kronos then?
Can get about 60km max range with my setup on blasters.
do u reckon that will be enough?
Gets about 1,100 with long range ammo 1400dps uo to 30km
No you cant do 1400 dps at 30km with blasters.
|

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 14:52:00 -
[7745] - Quote
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
You really must be a troll. You are a bit aggressive my friend. Calm down a bit and start a new.
Are we discussing PvP or PvE? For marauders that means mostly the biggest difference. I can tell that i will never do PvP in a Marauder in low or nullsec. And i will never activate bastion within our High Sec wars. So for me a Marauder is stuck with PvE and the cruise golem is still one of the best. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 15:46:00 -
[7746] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:I [....] will never do PvP in a Marauder in low or nullsec. And i will never activate bastion within our High Sec wars. So for me a Marauder is stuck with PvE and the cruise golem is still one of the best. Curious remark because in my carebearish imagination I would actually consider going into PVP with those new Marauders. Would I die? Most probably. The common knowledge is that PVP ship should be written off at the moment it's undocked. But I'd expect to have at least a chance to have a few moment of action when I'm a force to be reckoned with. |

Placibo son Son
souchons corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 21:55:00 -
[7747] - Quote
Would have liked marauders to be more central for incursions. and so...
---
Let group buffs to persist while in bastion mode( for mmo sake ), and change the rep boost bonus to all rep boosts received self and fleet.
---
So even if we do less damage than some ships, we tank better and are less of a burden on our fleet. |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 23:25:00 -
[7748] - Quote
Shivanthar wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:
... are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that...
Shhhh! There are angry Vargur pilots around here, who're about to loose this ability at some degree in Rubicon.
M1k3y Koontz is the kind of person who is clueless about eve - missiles are childs play. Totally clueless.
Yes - was seething at one point about the Vargur, now just sad resignation. I lose a PVE ship and gain a wholly bizarre PVP ship. One that will sit and wait to die.
Humph. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 01:42:00 -
[7749] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Shivanthar wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:
... are you referring to how gun ships can mitigate transversal by moving in line with its target? Cause BSs have about zero chance of being able to do that...
Shhhh! There are angry Vargur pilots around here, who're about to loose this ability at some degree in Rubicon. M1k3y Koontz is the kind of person who is clueless about eve - missiles are childs play. Totally clueless. Yes - was seething at one point about the Vargur, now just sad resignation. I lose a PVE ship and gain a wholly bizarre PVP ship. One that will sit and wait to die. Humph.
the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1115
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 08:31:00 -
[7750] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS.
Perhaps this is because I can't actually fly a Vargur on TQ, but I will say that on SiSi I rather like the Vargur - both in AB-powered and Bastion-powered modes - and look forward to flying the hell out of it.
In Rust We Trust.Gäó |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
779
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 09:16:00 -
[7751] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mer88 wrote:the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS. Perhaps this is because I can't actually fly a Vargur on TQ, but I will say that on SiSi I rather like the Vargur - both in AB-powered and Bastion-powered modes - and look forward to flying the hell out of it. In Rust We Trust.Gäó
Let me point you to:
Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed.
Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius.
Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion.
Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD). "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
779
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 09:18:00 -
[7752] - Quote
Placibo son Son wrote:Would have liked marauders to be more central for incursions. and so...
---
Let group buffs to persist while in bastion mode( for mmo sake ), and change the rep boost bonus to all rep boosts received self and fleet.
---
So even if we do less damage than some ships, we tank better and are less of a burden on our fleet.
Ok.. add a 800% boost to beign remote repaired. Makes no difference sicne ewar immunity prevents anyoen from repairingyou. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
779
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 09:19:00 -
[7753] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:I [....] will never do PvP in a Marauder in low or nullsec. And i will never activate bastion within our High Sec wars. So for me a Marauder is stuck with PvE and the cruise golem is still one of the best. Curious remark because in my carebearish imagination I would actually consider going into PVP with those new Marauders. Would I die? Most probably. The common knowledge is that PVP ship should be written off at the moment it's undocked. But I'd expect to have at least a chance to have a few moment of action when I'm a force to be reckoned with.
You wotn be reckoned. You are less dangerous than a t1 battleship when youy press that bastion thing. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 16:42:00 -
[7754] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mer88 wrote:the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS. Perhaps this is because I can't actually fly a Vargur on TQ, but I will say that on SiSi I rather like the Vargur - both in AB-powered and Bastion-powered modes - and look forward to flying the hell out of it. In Rust We Trust.Gäó Let me point you to: Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed. Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius. Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion. Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD).
we are talking about pve here. sig radius is useless especially when bastion is turn on. , speed while useful wont make a big difference to overall mission time. on the plus side they made all marauders more agile so it should help gun boats outside of bastion to reduce transverse more. IMO, vargur is pretty much the same as the old vargur. if you like the tq vargur you will like the new vargur. with the mobile depot, you can switch to artillery for 100km fights. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
134
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 17:54:00 -
[7755] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. My ticks tell different story. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
134
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 17:58:00 -
[7756] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Let me point you to:
Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed.
Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius.
Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion.
Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD).
Let me point to you that before rebalancing Vargur was the best marauder. It's others which were brought more to the line so yes, in comparison it may not be as awesome as it used to be. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 19:59:00 -
[7757] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Let me point you to:
Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed.
Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius.
Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion.
Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD).
Let me point to you that before rebalancing Vargur was the best marauder. It's others which were brought more to the line so yes, in comparison it may not be as awesome as it used to be.
Mega crap. Have you seen Vargurs in Incursions? I havn't. And now all other marauders might be gone too. Vargurs were the best marauder when applying damage through moving towards the npcs. Thats reduced now too.
My winner now is cruise golem as the easiest to handle T2 BS. Vargur is still good, but this has nothing to do with anything correlated to the bastion module itself. I, for myself, think my style of playing the vargur and keeping the ticks high has been nerfed.
|

Fire Forager
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 20:22:00 -
[7758] - Quote
Look on the bright side, gonna be loads of marauders for sale cheap, cos nobody is gonna want one. What Bastion stupid idea.
It is something, that in my 8+ years of eve, I've always admired, no matter how stupid the idea, or how many people tell them it sux, ccp still blindly carry on and do it anyway. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
135
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 20:57:00 -
[7759] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:hmskrecik wrote:[....]before rebalancing Vargur was the best marauder. It's others which were brought more to the line so yes, in comparison it may not be as awesome as it used to be. Mega crap. Have you seen Vargurs in Incursions? I havn't. And now all other marauders might be gone too. Vargurs were the best marauder when applying damage through moving towards the npcs. Thats reduced now too. My winner now is cruise golem as the easiest to handle T2 BS. Vargur is still good, but this has nothing to do with anything correlated to the bastion module itself. I, for myself, think my style of playing the vargur and keeping the ticks high has been nerfed. Not once and not twice I have agreed that marauders got shafted incursions wise. Maybe players will adapt or maybe it will be impossible, I don't judge on that. The upside is that basically every other activity got boosted. I can vouch for L4 missions and there were people reporting good results with other stuff.
Going back to Vargur. The falloff bonus is still there, the tracking bonus is still there. Speed is lowered, okay, but I'm still waiting for anyone reporting HOW MUCH lower income they now generate. Could it be you? |

Julie Thorne
14th Legion Eternal Evocations
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 23:31:00 -
[7760] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote: Not once and not twice I have agreed that marauders got shafted incursions wise. Maybe players will adapt or maybe it will be impossible, I don't judge on that. The upside is that basically every other activity got boosted. I can vouch for L4 missions and there were people reporting good results with other stuff.
Going back to Vargur. The falloff bonus is still there, the tracking bonus is still there. Speed is lowered, okay, but I'm still waiting for anyone reporting HOW MUCH lower income they now generate. Could it be you?
The issue is not that the Vargur will get worse. It is that it is standing still, while everything else is getting better. Not just other marauders. EVERYTHING. What do you think how much more income a Mach or RNI pilot will generate with the help of the new mobile structures?
At least the other marauders will have unique qualities which will make them better in some cases than their faction/pirate variants. Unfortunately EW immunity is fairly useless against Angels so I will have absolutely no reason to fly my Vargur over my Mach. |
|

Sir Spottington
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
56
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 00:16:00 -
[7761] - Quote
at risk of being flamed
when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went? |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1129
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 00:42:00 -
[7762] - Quote
Sir Spottington wrote:at risk of being flamed
when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went?
Hundreds of pages ago, when they decided that Marauder Rebalance v2 was terrible. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 02:35:00 -
[7763] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:hmskrecik wrote:[....]before rebalancing Vargur was the best marauder. It's others which were brought more to the line so yes, in comparison it may not be as awesome as it used to be. Mega crap. Have you seen Vargurs in Incursions? I havn't. And now all other marauders might be gone too. Vargurs were the best marauder when applying damage through moving towards the npcs. Thats reduced now too. My winner now is cruise golem as the easiest to handle T2 BS. Vargur is still good, but this has nothing to do with anything correlated to the bastion module itself. I, for myself, think my style of playing the vargur and keeping the ticks high has been nerfed. Not once and not twice I have agreed that marauders got shafted incursions wise. Maybe players will adapt or maybe it will be impossible, I don't judge on that. The upside is that basically every other activity got boosted. I can vouch for L4 missions and there were people reporting good results with other stuff. Going back to Vargur. The falloff bonus is still there, the tracking bonus is still there. Speed is lowered, okay, but I'm still waiting for anyone reporting HOW MUCH lower income they now generate. Could it be you?
The upcoming patch was made to promote new stuff. I endorse the design of the stratios, i love the new mobile structure and i like the advantages my cruise golem gets with bastion. Damage application rises with the chance to fit multiple TPs, to reduce tank and to jump around with mjd. It isn't like the golem wasn't able to tank all lvl 4 missions, but at least now you can do it semi afk.
To take advantage from bastion in an ac vargur; the Arty abomination might actually be seen in incursions but not in lvl4s with its puny dps; you need a very special situation.
You have to fly missions in non minmatar space
You have to rely on long range situations.
You have to hope that you can forget, that moving 4 km towards the npcs gives more dps then the bastion module.
To take advantage of a mjd you need to fit dual prop because even the mjd does not increase dps significantly if you can't land and stay within 30km of the npcs.
My dominix fitted with a standard mjd does more damage with higher application then the actual vargur.
So to answer your question: I will maintain the ticks in minmatar space with my old fitting, but i will lose a lot of isks compared to all other marauders atm you want to utilize the advantages of bastion in e-war rich areas.
Sorry for the wall of text, but i am so angry about the way ccps devs presented their communication. It would have been better to make a single post (This is what we will do...) and close this thread afterwards for public postings, instead of giving me the illusions to help them make it right. Right now it is just a prestige object of a devs imagination without pointing a marauder overhaul to the individual problems of each marauder/marauder setup. Arty vargur, Torp golem and other combination still need some love. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
135
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:33:00 -
[7764] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:I will maintain the ticks in minmatar space with my old fitting, but i will lose a lot of isks compared to all other marauders atm you want to utilize the advantages of bastion in e-war rich areas. And one day I will fly a Titan. The question is, do we know it or we're merely speculating? Or, to stay on topic, did you measure your performance in any way?
If no then the discussion pretty much ends to me. Except for maybe asking, more or less politely, how the hell do you know something you don't measure.
If yes, then there would follow two another questions:
- What are your results?
- How did you measure it? What were conditions, what were you looking at or after and in case our results were dramatically different, briefly describe how did you fly your ship.
This second question is specifically tailored to avoid whole the thing becoming e-peen comparison. I want to compare notes.
Anyway the case is moot since after today's DT we won't have old marauders anymore so everyone will happily stick to their already set convictions.
To the rest of your comments.: - I don't share your sentiment that devs were sitting in their ivory tower when working on this. There were three updates after all and unless I am mistaken, they were based also on feedback in this very thread. - Yes, the MJD can't replace other prop module and we have to deal with it. - I admit I don't have it properly theorycrafted but it's a simple observation: sometimes moving 4km towards your present target moves you 4km away from the next one in queue. So it's not always as simple as just dogchasing. - After experience trying them on Machariel, I have no idea where arties could be useful in PVE on falloff bonused hull and I accept it as a fact. But I'm open to suggestions. |

Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 08:29:00 -
[7765] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:I will maintain the ticks in minmatar space with my old fitting, but i will lose a lot of isks compared to all other marauders atm you want to utilize the advantages of bastion in e-war rich areas. And one day I will fly a Titan. The question is, do we know it or we're merely speculating? Or, to stay on topic, did you measure your performance in any way? If no then the discussion pretty much ends to me. Except for maybe asking, more or less politely, how the hell do you know something you don't measure. If yes, then there would follow two another questions: - What are your results? - How did you measure it? What were conditions, what were you looking at or after and in case our results were dramatically different, briefly describe how did you fly your ship. This second question is specifically tailored to avoid whole the thing becoming e-peen comparison. I want to compare notes. Anyway the case is moot since after today's DT we won't have old marauders anymore so everyone will happily stick to their already set convictions. To the rest of your comments.: - I don't share your sentiment that devs were sitting in their ivory tower when working on this. There were three updates after all and unless I am mistaken, they were based also on feedback in this very thread. - Yes, the MJD can't replace other prop module and we have to deal with it. - I admit I don't have it properly theorycrafted but it's a simple observation: sometimes moving 4km towards your present target moves you 4km away from the next one in queue. So it's not always as simple as just dogchasing. - After experience trying them on Machariel, I have no idea where arties could be useful in PVE on falloff bonused hull and I accept it as a fact. But I'm open to suggestions.
I was flying missions for SoE in langisi minmatar space on SiSi. I flew 4 Angel Extravaganza with different vargur setups and in the end 2 assaults with the 2 final setups. I salvaged with an altchar so i only looted mission specific items or the implant in AE pocket 4.
AE: AC Vargur with Bastion, 1 Invul, 1Booster, rest tracking
AC Vargur with Bastion, MWD+cap booster
AC Vargur with bastion, AB + MJD
AT Vargur with bastion, MJD lots of TCs
While against angels i didn't need to take advantage of the of the e-war immunity, i flew one with instant bastion after entering area. It works good in pocket 1,2 and 3 but last spawns in 4 and 5 and the extra pocket take quite some time.
especially pocket 4 increases time spend inside of the pocket if vargur doesn't move. Reduces dps by 40%. Tactical movement with spawn 3 and 4 allows much more dps applied, therefore reduce time spend in site.
Always bastioned vargur needed 6:40mins longer in this site compared to free flying vargur with its less fall-off on the paper.
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
Assault: AC Vargur with Bastion, 1 Invul, 1Booster, rest tracking
AC Vargur with Bastion, MWD+cap booster
I decided to only measure time between this both.
To know what to kill first makes the big difference in this mission. If you do it wrong you will be damped for the first minutes before you reach the npcs or you switch on bastion. So with MWD Vargur i instantly moved into the npcs and switched on bastion. I killed all damp cruiser on my way and was not in the need to use bastion because of e-war immunity, but because of necessary tank.
after some cycles i burned to BS group - bastion - and back to gate. Works good, will be my final setup.
Instant bastion vargur pilots will have the ship for lazy people but will increase time spend in missions quite a lot. I needed 8 more minutes in this site.
Of course i did mistakes with the bastion some times so you could go down to 7 or even 6 more minutes needed. but still noticeable difference.
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
795
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:05:00 -
[7766] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Sir Spottington wrote:at risk of being flamed
when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went? Hundreds of pages ago, when they decided that Marauder Rebalance v2 was terrible.
In fact i prefered that second iteration, sans the web bonus.
With that it would at least be usable on PVP. Since bastion is a suicidal button in PVP, marauders are sleaed of from serious PVP for another 5 years. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
795
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:08:00 -
[7767] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mer88 wrote:the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS. Perhaps this is because I can't actually fly a Vargur on TQ, but I will say that on SiSi I rather like the Vargur - both in AB-powered and Bastion-powered modes - and look forward to flying the hell out of it. In Rust We Trust.Gäó Let me point you to: Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed. Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius. Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion. Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD). we are talking about pve here. sig radius is useless especially when bastion is turn on. , speed while useful wont make a big difference to overall mission time. on the plus side they made all marauders more agile so it should help gun boats outside of bastion to reduce transverse more. IMO, vargur is pretty much the same as the old vargur. if you like the tq vargur you will like the new vargur. with the mobile depot, you can switch to artillery for 100km fights.
Sig radius is NOT useles. Anyone that knows how to fly a vargur knows that. I used to be able to finish several mission boosting my shield only 2 times. Mitigating ALL damage with speed and signature.
And NO you wil not liek new vargur. Because now if you are smart you will dump it and get a golem or a paladin that are both FAR superior "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
65
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:08:00 -
[7768] - Quote
What I've found works great in almost all missions with the new bastion is to purposefully kill the triggers first. what this does is it gets everything spawned faster meaning esp in angels the rats are closer to you faster meaning you do more damage.
also in my honest opinion if you are NOT salvaging and looting while running the mission then what in the hell are you doing in a marauder in the first place? you are quite literally doing it wrong.
And the new tractor beam structure? it improves all marauders efficiency (long range like pally a bit more perhaps) by quite a bit. also dont forgetbthe mobile depo. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
795
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:34:00 -
[7769] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:What I've found works great in almost all missions with the new bastion is to purposefully kill the triggers first. what this does is it gets everything spawned faster meaning esp in angels the rats are closer to you faster meaning you do more damage.
also in my honest opinion if you are NOT salvaging and looting while running the mission then what in the hell are you doing in a marauder in the first place? you are quite literally doing it wrong.
And the new tractor beam structure? it improves all marauders efficiency (long range like pally a bit more perhaps) by quite a bit. also dont forgetbthe mobile depo.
Since all the nerf salvaging and looting is worth barelly a couple million per mission. Much better to use the fittings for something better. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 10:16:00 -
[7770] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!
On to Gallente BS 4 for me - 5 next, Machariel is the only option left for the Minmatar pilot. |
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
66
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 10:55:00 -
[7771] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:What I've found works great in almost all missions with the new bastion is to purposefully kill the triggers first. what this does is it gets everything spawned faster meaning esp in angels the rats are closer to you faster meaning you do more damage.
also in my honest opinion if you are NOT salvaging and looting while running the mission then what in the hell are you doing in a marauder in the first place? you are quite literally doing it wrong.
And the new tractor beam structure? it improves all marauders efficiency (long range like pally a bit more perhaps) by quite a bit. also dont forgetbthe mobile depo. Since all the nerf salvaging and looting is worth barelly a couple million per mission. Much better to use the fittings for something better. my previously published numbers prove this to be a lie. salvage and loot is usually between double to sometimes almost triple the bounty value of a site.
why you lie so much?
|

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 13:50:00 -
[7772] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 13:59:00 -
[7773] - Quote
Tramar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.
what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.
Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.
|

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 14:16:00 -
[7774] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:
what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.
Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.
It's now a totally inferior Maradeur it lost a lot of it's speed in mvd/ab setups, gained a useless bonus for an mjd and gains the least from bastion bonuses compared to other ships. It's also less cap-stable now |

Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
108
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 15:24:00 -
[7775] - Quote
But you can hardly argue that the Vargur has got the coolest deployment animation. ;-)
Also, just if you are interested in a little controversy, check out Jester's Trek, where our CSM delegate Ripard Teg lays out in his piece "Shake your money-maker" why marauders have as of today become incredibly powerful PvE machines. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 15:42:00 -
[7776] - Quote
Tramar wrote:Mer88 wrote:
what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.
Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.
It's now a totally inferior Maradeur it lost a lot of it's speed in mvd/ab setups, gained a useless bonus for an mjd and gains the least from bastion bonuses compared to other ships. It's also less cap-stable now
hmm kronos got cap issues due to guns sucking it dry. golem still has target speed issue that result in major lost of dps , paladin still em /themr damage only. vargur lost some speed but it gain so much more. put a nano fiber in the low and you get your speed back. i personally use 4 TCs and change script according to what is needed. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
195
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 16:40:00 -
[7777] - Quote
Well, at least Rubicon has given us a new Metagame.
We can now jump into Anomalies with 4 Golems in a nice big square formation, and we all deploy a tractor beam structure. Then we all start shooting and play a big space game of Hungry Hungry Hippos.
Who ever gets the most in loot wins. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
98
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 16:43:00 -
[7778] - Quote
Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 17:50:00 -
[7779] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Well, at least Rubicon has given us a new Metagame.
We can now jump into Anomalies with 4 Golems in a nice big square formation, and we all deploy a tractor beam structure. Then we all start shooting and play a big space game of Hungry Hungry Hippos.
Who ever gets the most in loot wins.
epic!  Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
135
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 17:51:00 -
[7780] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote:[lots of good stuff] Wow, that was more than I asked for. I was merely interested in comparison of performance of given fit between old and new marauder but you also checked different fits.
Okay, this 6-something minute time difference is quite significant. It would mean this chasing for optimal is worth the trouble (I think I will have to check it again; I tested some time ago and found the difference not too big).
Use of bastion is going to be matter of skill. The tactics which worked for me was to burn or MJD near suitable group, cycle bastion, start shooting away and as the cycle goes, decide whether give it next pulse or to move along. BTW, this MJD+AB fitting is what I've been using.
Quote:Instant bastion vargur pilots will have the ship for lazy people but will increase time spend in missions quite a lot. I needed 8 more minutes in this site. I agree that it's the lazy mode though I still feel there is room for improvement. I the way how I fly anyhow.
Quote:If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour. Maybe I should go for some mission time in the opposite direction. It's the only empire where I didn't mission (not counting epic arcs) |
|

Sh0plifter
Underworld Initiative
18
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 18:24:00 -
[7781] - Quote
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc
You made a funny. I like you.
Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with.
I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often. |

Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
98
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 19:13:00 -
[7782] - Quote
I do what I can |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 22:06:00 -
[7783] - Quote
Sh0plifter wrote:Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc You made a funny. I like you.
Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with. I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often.
lol the mobile tractor beam is a joke . 100m is alot when your cargo bay is 600. if it was smart and only tractor in Large wrecks with loot first then it might be useful. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
613
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 23:07:00 -
[7784] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:lol the mobile tractor beam is a joke . 100m is alot when your cargo bay is 600. if it was smart and only tractor in Large wrecks with loot first then it might be useful. It's for AFK miners and bots. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1525
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 06:11:00 -
[7785] - Quote
Tramar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.
Not so sure about this. The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's. And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.
The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.
The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 06:33:00 -
[7786] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Tramar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least. Not so sure about this. The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's. And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed. The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion. The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.
bastion is OP. especially after they buff kronos and paladin with optimal and falloff bonus. |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 08:20:00 -
[7787] - Quote
wasnt the bastion iteraction consulted and aproved by the csm in the first place ? its not risk free you still can get ganked by a few maniacs that want to loot your shiny T2 stuff  |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
803
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 08:55:00 -
[7788] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Tramar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least. Not so sure about this. The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's. And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed. The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion. The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.
All missions were already risk free. Now they are less risk free, because if you disconnect while in bastion mode, you die.....
And be sure that traveling in high sec is nto risk free on some certain gates :P
Overall bastion made even easier to run missions. A bit faster on my paladin, quite slower on my vargur. Vargur probably will never undock again, will sell it for a golem.
Wish the bastion module had a smaller tank bonus (like 50%) but with some damage bonus (like 15% even)
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
803
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 08:57:00 -
[7789] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Tramar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least. what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps. Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.
You already neede donly 2 slots to tank! I ran so many times even angel extravaganza extra pocket with only 2 modules tank (and crystal set)
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 09:54:00 -
[7790] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Not so sure about this. The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's. And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.
The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.
The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.
Well loosing the web-bonus is bad, but still they outperform Vargur in other aspects completely.
Nerfing the Maradeurs? - they are still worse than pirate ships and even some navy ships. Also they are the only t2 combat ship not seen/not needed in pvp, so yeah, lets nerf them! |
|

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
407
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 11:31:00 -
[7791] - Quote
what happened to the +30% tracking bonus? that was huge for us using large weapons to hit small stuff moving quickly.. =\ |

Cmd BenJames
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 11:50:00 -
[7792] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:what happened to the +30% tracking bonus? that was huge for us using large weapons to hit small stuff moving quickly.. =\
There never was one, it was a typo right at the start of the thread which was noted. |

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 16:21:00 -
[7793] - Quote
Tramar wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Not so sure about this. The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's. And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.
The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.
The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.
Well loosing the web-bonus is bad, but still they outperform Vargur in other aspects completely. Nerfing the Maradeurs? - they are still worse than pirate ships and even some navy ships. Also they are the only t2 combat ship not seen/not needed in pvp, so yeah, lets nerf them!
how are they worst than pirate ships? you try to do pve with 2 slot tank in a pirate ship then come back and see how you like that.. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 17:08:00 -
[7794] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Tramar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:
.. some nice analysis ...
Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.
.. some revealing conclusions ...
So in the end:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it! Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least. Not so sure about this. The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's. And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed. The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion. The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.
Here's one reason to nerf (I mean remove) the bastion nonsense: Load up EFT and fit up a golem with pith a-type passive resistance amps, 2 x-large ancillary shield boosters, a bastion module, DC and cargo expanders (including rigs).
You will need to downgrade to heavy missiles because of CPU.
So what do we get?
A ship that is 100% neut-proof, that with links, crystals and blue pill can *continuously* tank 10,000 hp/s. (i.e. a fleet of 12 T3s).
It can tank this damage for 35 reloads (due cargo bay) of the alternating ASB modules. Unless the enemy fleet brings more than 10,000 dps this ship has an EHP number of something like 15,000,000.
This is as much as a small POS.
In this configuration, the golem is still putting out 600dps or thereabouts, but that's not the point. With all those high slots you can slip in a cyno.
All this puppy has to do is anchor a small bubble near a gate, cloak up and wait. The moment a small fleet gets caught in the bubble, decloak and *HOTDROP*.
It's an unkillable cyno bait ship.
This will also be used in WH space, where it will nullify all WH pvp since no-one in their right mind will engage one due to the impossibility of killing it before reinforcements turn up.
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.
While they are OP, I will be training for one of course...
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 17:13:00 -
[7795] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Here's one reason to nerf (I mean remove) the bastion nonsense: Load up EFT and fit up a golem with pith a-type passive resistance amps, 2 x-large ancillary shield boosters, a bastion module, DC and cargo expanders (including rigs).
You will need to downgrade to heavy missiles because of CPU.
So what do we get?
A ship that is 100% neut-proof, that with links, crystals and blue pill can *continuously* tank 10,000 hp/s. (i.e. a fleet of 12 T3s).
It can tank this damage for 35 reloads (due cargo bay) of the alternating ASB modules. Unless the enemy fleet brings more than 10,000 dps this ship has an EHP number of something like 15,000,000.
This is as much as a small POS.
In this configuration, the golem is still putting out 600dps or thereabouts, but that's not the point. With all those high slots you can slip in a cyno.
All this puppy has to do is anchor a small bubble near a gate, cloak up and wait. The moment a small fleet gets caught in the bubble, decloak and *HOTDROP*.
It's an unkillable cyno bait ship.
This will also be used in WH space, where it will nullify all WH pvp since no-one in their right mind will engage one due to the impossibility of killing it before reinforcements turn up.
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.
While they are OP, I will be training for one of course...
that is a problem with being able to fit 2 X-LARGE ANCILLARY SHIELD BOOSTERS, the solution to this is the same thing they did to armor when they released the ARR's make it 1 per ship.
you can't do the same thing with armor. So that still leads back to the conclusion that it's the x-large ancillary shield boosters that is the problem. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 17:24:00 -
[7796] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Here's one reason to nerf (I mean remove) the bastion nonsense: Load up EFT and fit up a golem with pith a-type passive resistance amps, 2 x-large ancillary shield boosters, a bastion module, DC and cargo expanders (including rigs).
You will need to downgrade to heavy missiles because of CPU.
So what do we get?
A ship that is 100% neut-proof, that with links, crystals and blue pill can *continuously* tank 10,000 hp/s. (i.e. a fleet of 12 T3s).
It can tank this damage for 35 reloads (due cargo bay) of the alternating ASB modules. Unless the enemy fleet brings more than 10,000 dps this ship has an EHP number of something like 15,000,000.
This is as much as a small POS.
In this configuration, the golem is still putting out 600dps or thereabouts, but that's not the point. With all those high slots you can slip in a cyno.
All this puppy has to do is anchor a small bubble near a gate, cloak up and wait. The moment a small fleet gets caught in the bubble, decloak and *HOTDROP*.
It's an unkillable cyno bait ship.
This will also be used in WH space, where it will nullify all WH pvp since no-one in their right mind will engage one due to the impossibility of killing it before reinforcements turn up.
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.
While they are OP, I will be training for one of course...
that is a problem with being able to fit 2 X-LARGE ANCILLARY SHIELD BOOSTERS, the solution to this is the same thing they did to armor when they released the ARR's make it 1 per ship. you can't do the same thing with armor. So that still leads back to the conclusion that it's the x-large ancillary shield boosters that is the problem.
That's a fair point actually, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.
I have a dual-asb cloaky tengu which quite happily tanked a fleet of 5 until I could jump through a wormhole 3 times to finally evade them (i.e. the engagement lasted over 4 minutes). They had neuts and dps on me all through the engagement - i wasn't in danger once.
utter crap.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Tarmaniel
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 18:03:00 -
[7797] - Quote
Triage Paladin is also pretty hilarious, you can fit out a Paladin to cap stably run 7 large remote reps while local tanking about 7500 DPS, and you don't even need to involve deadspace modules. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
135
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 18:11:00 -
[7798] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game. I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out. |

Kane Fenris
NWP
118
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 18:31:00 -
[7799] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game. I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.
lol... why even talk to the winner? they are both wrong. the only ones who think they are OP are the "i overtank ever ship i fit cause i dont know how eve works" players. and the ones who say they are nerfed beyond useability are the " i'm pro all others are dumb i am the only one that knows how to fly ships proper" players.
note this does not mean i see marauders rebalance as a sucsess.
|

Sh0plifter
Underworld Initiative
18
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 18:49:00 -
[7800] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:Sh0plifter wrote:Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc You made a funny. I like you.
Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with. I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often. lol the mobile tractor beam is a joke . 100m is alot when your cargo bay is 600. if it was smart and only tractor in Large wrecks with loot first then it might be useful. You realize that the mobile tractor has a 27,000m3 cargo hold. When using it in an area that would actually benefit from it your measly 600m3 isn't going to cut it to begin with. Then with that the noctis gets a 60% Range/Velocity per level. Giving it 300% R/V at level 5. Going 3x the amount the marauder can do. So wizzing through in a 150m fitted BS and either going back in a noctis or duel-boxing an alt is more effecient then doing it with a marauder. Because the range of 40 means the marauder is either Close-range/Close-ammo setup to do it as it goes or it has to move into range to do pull everything in. Where as the tractor/noctis get 120 and can pull everything in almost any mission/site/anomaly in landing so it can slowboat to the next accel gate if there is one there while it does everything.
Personally when I did PVE I would go in, nuke everything and have it dead by the next gate and then go. Come back in a Noctis or run an alt if I had one there in the mission area with me. |
|

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
618
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 19:22:00 -
[7801] - Quote
Sh0plifter wrote:You realize that the mobile tractor has a 27,000m3 cargo hold. When using it in an area that would actually benefit from it your measly 600m3 isn't going to cut it to begin with. Then with that the noctis gets a 60% Range/Velocity per level. Giving it 300% R/V at level 5. Going 3x the amount the marauder can do. So wizzing through in a 150m fitted BS and either going back in a noctis or duel-boxing an alt is more effecient then doing it with a marauder. Because the range of 40 means the marauder is either Close-range/Close-ammo setup to do it as it goes or it has to move into range to do pull everything in. Where as the tractor/noctis get 120 and can pull everything in almost any mission/site/anomaly in landing so it can slowboat to the next accel gate if there is one there while it does everything.
Personally when I did PVE I would go in, nuke everything and have it dead by the next gate and then go. Come back in a Noctis or run an alt if I had one there in the mission area with me. The only benefit the Noctis has now are the 8 slots for salvaging. Simply drop a mobile tractor unit in each level and come back with the Noctis to salvage all the wrecks in a single spot. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
202
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 20:51:00 -
[7802] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Sh0plifter wrote:You realize that the mobile tractor has a 27,000m3 cargo hold. When using it in an area that would actually benefit from it your measly 600m3 isn't going to cut it to begin with. Then with that the noctis gets a 60% Range/Velocity per level. Giving it 300% R/V at level 5. Going 3x the amount the marauder can do. So wizzing through in a 150m fitted BS and either going back in a noctis or duel-boxing an alt is more effecient then doing it with a marauder. Because the range of 40 means the marauder is either Close-range/Close-ammo setup to do it as it goes or it has to move into range to do pull everything in. Where as the tractor/noctis get 120 and can pull everything in almost any mission/site/anomaly in landing so it can slowboat to the next accel gate if there is one there while it does everything.
Personally when I did PVE I would go in, nuke everything and have it dead by the next gate and then go. Come back in a Noctis or run an alt if I had one there in the mission area with me. The only benefit the Noctis has now are the 8 slots for salvaging. Simply drop a mobile tractor unit in each level and come back with the Noctis to salvage all the wrecks in a single spot.
But if you drop a tractor structure and fly off, it wont work will it? Dont you have to have a person on grid in order for it to function? I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
618
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 21:39:00 -
[7803] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:But if you drop a tractor structure and fly off, it wont work will it? Dont you have to have a person on grid in order for it to function? Within missions it continues to salvage, so you just have to return and scoop the mobile tractor units up. For a Marauder, I'd probably run 2-4 of the mobile tractor units, 2-3 salvagers and 5 salvage drones. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
71
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 23:51:00 -
[7804] - Quote
You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).
I for one welcome our new marauder overlords. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 00:01:00 -
[7805] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).
I for one welcome our new marauder overlords.
We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears... 
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
71
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 00:26:00 -
[7806] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).
I for one welcome our new marauder overlords. We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears... 
For what? a hull with a cheap T2 fit that I can buy from less than a single afternoon's work? I mean if you catch a cap fleet that will take at least 3 afternoons to replace then maybe but a single marauder? pfft.
kids  |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
371
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 00:38:00 -
[7807] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).
I for one welcome our new marauder overlords. We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears...  For what? a hull with a cheap T2 fit that I can buy from less than a single afternoon's work? I mean if you catch a cap fleet that will take at least 3 afternoons to replace then maybe but a single marauder? pfft. kids 
For what? For what do we do anything in eve? For the fun! turning over a solo marauder and stealing its loot is the kind of thing that passes for opportunistic fun in WH space.
If I remember the video correctly, the vargur did one kind of c5 site in 50 minutes. To earn enough for a new vargur, you're going to have to do 5 sites - that's 5 hours.
There's quite a good chance that in that time a wormhole will open up into you, so you'll need to keep your eyes on the probe scan.
You might come out ahead, but there will be some nice killmails.
Don't take me the wrong way. I think that it's a good thing that there are ships that can do this - it will bring more life and interest to wormhole space, which seems to have become a little quiet recently.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
817
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 07:45:00 -
[7808] - Quote
I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.
I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
372
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 09:29:00 -
[7809] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.
I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder.
:-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin.
This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet.
This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous.
As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
71
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 09:29:00 -
[7810] - Quote
actually he was doing around 300mill an hour so for a 1.2bill ship + fit its 4 hours. that said with a buddy as we are planning on running we should be able to reach around 750 an hour if we're good (refit to gank fit when not being focused will improve timess) meaning our break even will be around 3hours.
also being able to carry and refit to pvp fit before you even land means we should be able to give a small gang a run for its money.
hmm bait vargur... I hear thats a thing now |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
807
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 09:36:00 -
[7811] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.
I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder. :-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin. This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet. This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous. As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game.
Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.
But I would prefer if the marauder had gotten only 50% more repair and in exchange 20% more damage.
That would make them central in static combat, not somethign you just ignore until the rest of the targets are gone.
Also you cannot compare the tank to a dread tank. a dozen arti boats will crush your marauders crossing the defense layer in 1 volley, while the dread only has to worry with a titan DD doing that ( because lets be frank, even in 0.0 500 battleships is not a common sight on a single gang). "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
807
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 09:40:00 -
[7812] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game. I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.
The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec.
Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
372
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 10:26:00 -
[7813] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game. I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out. The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec. Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping.
You're right in null sec and 0.0 In WH space they are going to be very relevant. The fleets are smaller and (usually) there are no capitals.
Kagura Nikon wrote: Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.
Almost all WH combat is in a bubble, at ether a wormhole or a combat anomaly. The fight is very localised. Any ewar coming from the (immune to ewar) marauder is extremely relevant since it cannot be countered in any way other than a full (and lossy) retreat.
I take the point about alpahing a marauder (although the bait golem has about 250,000 ehp before you run the tank...) However, in WH space people just don't roam around in fleets of 25 artillery tornados like they do in 0.0 - you'd get murdered on a wormhole by a 5-man T3 fleet, and in any case there are just not enough targets available in a short enough time to keep the fleet interested.
WH combat is like u-boat combat - you spend a long time looking for a prize in a small squad.
Using a triage marauder in a C3/4 with a backup fleet nearby will become the bait-du-jour, and obvious bait is obvious.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
807
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 10:49:00 -
[7814] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game. I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out. The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec. Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping. You're right in null sec and 0.0 In WH space they are going to be very relevant. The fleets are smaller and (usually) there are no capitals. Kagura Nikon wrote: Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.
Almost all WH combat is in a bubble, at ether a wormhole or a combat anomaly. The fight is very localised. Any ewar coming from the (immune to ewar) marauder is extremely relevant since it cannot be countered in any way other than a full (and lossy) retreat. I take the point about alpahing a marauder (although the bait golem has about 250,000 ehp before you run the tank...) However, in WH space people just don't roam around in fleets of 25 artillery tornados like they do in 0.0 - you'd get murdered on a wormhole by a 5-man T3 fleet, and in any case there are just not enough targets available in a short enough time to keep the fleet interested. WH combat is like u-boat combat - you spend a long time looking for a prize in a small squad. Using a triage marauder in a C3/4 with a backup fleet nearby will become the bait-du-jour, and obvious bait is obvious.
Granted I do not have deep feel of wh current meta. My views are mostly from high sec, low sec and 0.0 combat. And low sec and 0.0 are not healthy places for marauders. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
71
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 10:51:00 -
[7815] - Quote
yea man those roaming gangs of nags flying around wh space is what you have to look out for. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
820
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 13:19:00 -
[7816] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.
I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder. :-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin. This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet. This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous. As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game. I don't see why being able to build a battleship, let me say that again - battleship - with an awesome tank, that can't be shut down by a ECM mod and made pointless, while doing ok but not OP dps, nowhere near that of a regular battleship with that sort of tank, is bad.
Why should battles be over in a few seconds, or a minute, that's a small ship mentality, these are battleships. They're supposed to do battle. Marauders are finally in the right spot on the field imo, I only hope that CCP follows up and allows bastion or some version on other battleships so they can be useful as well. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
809
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 14:31:00 -
[7817] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:yea man those roaming gangs of nags flying around wh space is what you have to look out for.
As I said, my view was not about WH, I am at least capable of addressing a statement as a minimally brain capable human. You on other hand must make a ******** statement that is on goon level of wisdom.
So I am forced to reply.. grand news.. WH population is a TINY fraction of 0.0 and low sec combined!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
809
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 14:33:00 -
[7818] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.
I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder. :-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin. This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet. This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous. As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game. I don't see why being able to build a battleship, let me say that again - battleship - with an awesome tank, that can't be shut down by a ECM mod and made pointless, while doing ok but not OP dps, nowhere near that of a regular battleship with that sort of tank, is bad. Why should battles be over in a few seconds, or a minute, that's a small ship mentality, these are battleships. They're supposed to do battle. Marauders are finally in the right spot on the field imo, I only hope that CCP follows up and allows bastion or some version on other battleships so they can be useful as well.
Mmm nerf t1 bastion to 50% more repair, allow it for any large hull . Make a t2 one that only marauders can use with 80% repair and 15% damage bonus? :))))) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
598
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 14:45:00 -
[7819] - Quote
mm.... i was amazed at how much a dual ASB vargur could tank .... maybe the bastion module should be nerfed a bit .... and add a T2 version that requires more skills and is about 80% of the current bastion module... although i found it hard to get the kronos to tank as much it kind of shows the disparency between ASB' and armour reps/AAR
Also i thought the bastion module didn't allow for fleet links to work on it am i wrong?? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
810
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 15:03:00 -
[7820] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:mm.... i was amazed at how much a dual ASB vargur could tank .... maybe the bastion module should be nerfed a bit .... and add a T2 version that requires more skills and is about 80% of the current bastion module... although i found it hard to get the kronos to tank as much it kind of shows the disparency between ASB' and armour reps/AAR
Also i thought the bastion module didn't allow for fleet links to work on it am i wrong??
ASB are very limited time wise. For the typical engagement scenario of a marauder they are not the best choice. So not overpowered.
Bastion module is too extreme on one side and too weak on other. I need less defensive power and more offensive power. Add a 25% tracking and change the falloff bonus to 50% then reduec the repair ammount to somethign like 60-70% "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
372
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 15:30:00 -
[7821] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Harvey James wrote:mm.... i was amazed at how much a dual ASB vargur could tank .... maybe the bastion module should be nerfed a bit .... and add a T2 version that requires more skills and is about 80% of the current bastion module... although i found it hard to get the kronos to tank as much it kind of shows the disparency between ASB' and armour reps/AAR
Also i thought the bastion module didn't allow for fleet links to work on it am i wrong?? ASB are very limited time wise. For the typical engagement scenario of a marauder they are not the best choice. So not overpowered. Bastion module is too extreme on one side and too weak on other. I need less defensive power and more offensive power. Add a 25% tracking and change the falloff bonus to 50% then reduec the repair ammount to somethign like 60-70%
This is factually incorrect.
I't very easy to fit a golem with dual ASB. You alternate the pulses of ASB and time them so that one is depleting while the other is reloading.
This way you achieve 63.75% of the headline tank figure for 1 ASB in EFT or Eve HQ. It's possible to run the ASBs overheated for the entire fight because only one at a time is being used.
While perms-tanking this monstrous dps, the golem is able to push out over 1000dps and field a target painter.
Bastion is a mistake. Allowing dual ASB breaks the game, which is a shame since CCP almost fixed it with the previous 2 patches.
I'll post a fit + stats in the next post
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
372
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 15:35:00 -
[7822] - Quote
[Golem, WH bait] 4x Torpedo Launcher II (Scourge Rage Torpedo) Bastion Module I 2x Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II
2x X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400) 2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II 100MN Afterburner II Target Painter II
Co-Processor II 2x Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Large Processor Overclocking Unit II
5x Hobgoblin II
[Statistics - Overheated, both reppers] Effective HP: 139,870 (Eve: 126,022) Tank Ability: 10,663 DPS Shield Resists - EM: 88.42%, Ex: 86.28%, Ki: 85.59%, Th: 86.82% Capacitor (Stable at 64%) Volley Damage: 8,392.19 DPS: 1,090.64
[Statistics - unheated, alternating shield boosters] Effective HP: 124,141 (Eve: 113,600) Tank Ability: 3396 DPS Shield Resists - EM: 82.80%, Ex: 83.86%, Ki: 83.05%, Th: 85.09% Capacitor (Stable at 64.46%) Volley Damage: 8,392.19 DPS: 1,090.64
=============================================================================== Sufficient cargo for 13 shield booster reloads So assuming you always overheat the active repper and don't overheat the invulnerability fields... cycle time = 4.5s, 9 cycles per reload (60s) so max continuous pulse is 63.75% of max rep... = 2956dps truly continuous tank (no long breaks for reload) EHP = 2956 (dps tank per second) * 13 (reloads) * 60 (seconds per reload cycle) + 124141 (base ehp) 2,429,821 ===============================================================================
Given the situation where the ship is ganked by 7 players with 800dps each, perfectly applied (a big ask), the ship can overheat the resists for: continuous shield repair: 5387 x 63.75% = 3434.21 dps effective dps = 5600 - 3443.21 = 2165.79 time to live = 139870 / 2165.79 = 64.5 seconds = 1min 5s.
Note that this is without fleet boosts, drugs or implants. With fleet boosts (jump through a WH when the ship gets jumped), drugs and crystals the continuous tank (overheating no resists, only the active shield booster) rises to 6612, out-tanking the hypthetical gank fleet until the boosters run out - which will take: time to live = 2429821 (ehp) / 5600 (incoming dps) = 433s = 7m 13s In this time, the golem will have contributed 472,000 ehp of damage to the enemy fleet, so assuming there is a bubble, they will have lost 3 T3 ships to the golem alone.
Of course while the counter-gank is going on, the golem can be salvaging the wrecks of sleepers and the enemy fleet.
Summary: I think we've just found a job for the golem :-)
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
811
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 16:13:00 -
[7823] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Harvey James wrote:mm.... i was amazed at how much a dual ASB vargur could tank .... maybe the bastion module should be nerfed a bit .... and add a T2 version that requires more skills and is about 80% of the current bastion module... although i found it hard to get the kronos to tank as much it kind of shows the disparency between ASB' and armour reps/AAR
Also i thought the bastion module didn't allow for fleet links to work on it am i wrong?? ASB are very limited time wise. For the typical engagement scenario of a marauder they are not the best choice. So not overpowered. Bastion module is too extreme on one side and too weak on other. I need less defensive power and more offensive power. Add a 25% tracking and change the falloff bonus to 50% then reduec the repair ammount to somethign like 60-70% This is factually incorrect. I't very easy to fit a golem with dual ASB. You alternate the pulses of ASB and time them so that one is depleting while the other is reloading. This way you achieve 63.75% of the headline tank figure for 1 ASB in EFT or Eve HQ. It's possible to run the ASBs overheated for the entire fight because only one at a time is being used. While perms-tanking this monstrous dps, the golem is able to push out over 1000dps and field a target painter. Bastion is a mistake. Allowing dual ASB breaks the game, which is a shame since CCP almost fixed it with the previous 2 patches. I'll post a fit + stats in the next post
When an ASB had enough charges for a full minute.. yes.. sicne they were nerfed you wil lget a few secodns with no repair between them. That is when you get vulnerable....
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 16:37:00 -
[7824] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: When an ASB had enough charges for a full minute.. yes.. sicne they were nerfed you wil lget a few secodns with no repair between them. That is when you get vulnerable.... not that is a large time. Just pointing the thing is not so invulnearable.
You misunderstood me. The ASB is to be pulsed, with a time gap between each pulse. Thus the one that is reloading is ready by the time you have exhausted the active one. That is why I reduce the tank number to 63% of the headline - to compensate for this pulsing.
You need to leave 2 seconds between each cycle. The ASB cycle time is 4.5 seconds. There are 9 charges. 60/9 = ~6.5.
This way there is *no* delay between reloads.
It really does have 2.5m ehp against any fleet that cannot out-dps it. This is more than a T2 fitted dreadnought.
You can even make the fit neut-proof at the expense of some tank by fitting passive hardeners, or drop some DPS and increase the neut-proof tank to an astonishing 10,000 continuous dps.
Like I said, totally OP, and I will be totally abusing it util they nerf it. Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
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Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
105
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 16:41:00 -
[7825] - Quote
Golem - Dory
High - Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Bastion Mode I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II
Medium - Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II Target Painter II Target Painter II
Low - Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Rig - Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Drones - x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Salvage Drone I
Cargo - x12800 Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Mobile Tractor Unit
1001 DPS Able to hit anything within 118km Will usually pop cruisers and frigates in one shot Over 8mins of cap time Mobile tractor unit for those long to reach wrecks Tank is 900 plus every 3.2secs Anything not T2 is because it is Meta 4 and does better then it's T2 brother, or because the bastion only has a I one version. Fit cost is way under 1.5bil |

Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
14
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 16:48:00 -
[7826] - Quote
another smartas that uses 2 invus + bastion ( its a stacking penalized invu guys ) |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 17:01:00 -
[7827] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:another smartas that uses 2 invus + bastion ( its a stacking penalized invu guys )
Stacking penalty or not, it still gives better results than specific resists. Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Mason Drake
SGK Inc
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 17:19:00 -
[7828] - Quote
This post will probably just get a ton of flames/hate from the 1337 PvPers and others, because it breaks the fantasy MMO crowd control combat methodology of internet spaceship combat. Luckily, I stopped giving a **** what self-proclaimed 1337 people think of me when I got past nursery school. So . . .
maraud verb 1. to roam or go around in quest of plunder; make a raid for booty verb 2. to raid for plunder
Marauder noun the act of marauding.
The new Bastion system makes my Marauder feel like it is not a Marauder. It feels like I am in a semi-mobile turret or artillery piece, when I play it now. The Bastion is an a$$-backwards approach to re-balancing the class.
Okay, so you want the ship to "project damage"? How about making a Marauder system that allows it to put the ship in the middle of the furball and keep it there, instead of sitting itself in one place, Create a system that basically make the ship immune to webs and increases its defenses at the cost of weapon range. Then the ship can get in the target's face and project its damage point blank, instead of sitting like Maginot line turret in space. The ship is a Marauder after all, so let it roam the battlefield in quest of kills.
I'm not really thrilled with E-War immunity, but since ECM is such an issue with the frigate strength sensors that Marauders have, either increase their sensor strength to a reasonable level or give the ship some kind of make the system have partial E-War immunity. Total E-War immunity just really feels like overkill. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
820
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 18:00:00 -
[7829] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: . Snip .
Given the situation where the ship is ganked by 7 players with 800dps each, perfectly applied (a big ask), the ship can overheat the resists for: continuous shield repair: 5387 x 63.75% = 3434.21 dps effective dps = 5600 - 3443.21 = 2165.79 time to live = 139870 / 2165.79 = 64.5 seconds = 1min 5s.
Note that this is without fleet boosts, drugs or implants. With fleet boosts (jump through a WH when the ship gets jumped), drugs and crystals the continuous tank (overheating no resists, only the active shield booster) rises to 6612, out-tanking the hypthetical gank fleet until the boosters run out - which will take: time to live = 2429821 (ehp) / 5600 (incoming dps) = 433s = 7m 13s In this time, the golem will have contributed 472,000 ehp of damage to the enemy fleet, so assuming there is a bubble, they will have lost 3 T3 ships to the golem alone.
Of course while the counter-gank is going on, the golem can be salvaging the wrecks of sleepers and the enemy fleet.
Summary: I think we've just found a job for the golem :-)
Its a battleship, its supposed to take out cruisers. T3's cruisers have been the OP pimpmobile for a while now, taking out battleships with impunity (have killed battleships in a Proteus without scratching my shields in an armor tanked boat).
Guess they now have something to worry about. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
137
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 18:34:00 -
[7830] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Like I said, totally OP, and I will be totally abusing it util they nerf it. I believe it was CCP Rise who asked for precisely this kind of proof that something in game is imbalanced. |
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 18:36:00 -
[7831] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: ... snip... Its a battleship, its supposed to take out cruisers. T3's cruisers have been the OP pimpmobile for a while now, taking out battleships with impunity (have killed battleships in a Proteus without scratching my shields in an armor tanked boat).
Guess they now have something to worry about.
There's also nothing to stop you bring your own mini-dreads along to fight. And its bit disingenuous to say that the marauder has applied that much damage to T3's using torps.
But i think you're splitting hairs and deliberately missing the point. This fit is a bait fit that not only makes money, it's going to be the last thing left on the field in any gank/countergank situation.
Of course when counter-ganking, you'll bring webs (usually a loki) along with all the other dps and ewar. The marauder, along with the target painter will do pretty close to perfect damage through the encounter.
It will also be the last thing the opposing fleet engage, since it makes sense to kill the soft targets first to reduce incoming ordnance.
OK, you can bring you own golem, and we can bring 2 golems... until we have a golemfest, but this will not make for good or fun pvp - it's just a game of 'who can bring the most armoured turrets?'
The escape-ability of the marauders is a good thing, but the unkillability of them is daft. I am fairly sure Ytterbium did not think through the implications, and certainly did not intend to create 40,000dps tank monsters (actually 60,000 if you use PITH A-type gear and overheat it...)
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 18:40:00 -
[7832] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Like I said, totally OP, and I will be totally abusing it util they nerf it. I believe it was CCP Rise who asked for precisely this kind of proof that something in game is imbalanced.
This kind of imbalance was plain to see from the beginning of the 'design' phase. It was addressed on about page 20 of this thread, and thoroughly ignored by the dev team. Some simple mathematics uncovered it.
I can only assume they were more concerned about meeting production deadlines than game quality targets.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
815
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 19:20:00 -
[7833] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: When an ASB had enough charges for a full minute.. yes.. sicne they were nerfed you wil lget a few secodns with no repair between them. That is when you get vulnerable.... not that is a large time. Just pointing the thing is not so invulnearable.
You misunderstood me. The ASB is to be pulsed, with a time gap between each pulse. Thus the one that is reloading is ready by the time you have exhausted the active one. That is why I reduce the tank number to 63% of the headline - to compensate for this pulsing. You need to leave 2 seconds between each cycle. The ASB cycle time is 4.5 seconds. There are 9 charges. 60/9 = ~6.5. This way there is *no* delay between reloads. It really does have 2.5m ehp against any fleet that cannot out-dps it. This is more than a T2 fitted dreadnought. You can even make the fit neut-proof at the expense of some tank by fitting passive hardeners, or drop some DPS and increase the neut-proof tank to an astonishing 10,000 continuous dps. Like I said, totally OP, and I will be totally abusing it util they nerf it.
Ok, I see what you mean. But at least the player must do several clicks and not be drunk for it to work :) that is far more than most overpowered ships difficulties: P "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
821
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 20:00:00 -
[7834] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: ... snip... Its a battleship, its supposed to take out cruisers. T3's cruisers have been the OP pimpmobile for a while now, taking out battleships with impunity (have killed battleships in a Proteus without scratching my shields in an armor tanked boat).
Guess they now have something to worry about.
There's also nothing to stop you bring your own mini-dreads along to fight. And its bit disingenuous to say that the marauder has applied that much damage to T3's using torps.
But i think you're splitting hairs and deliberately missing the point. This fit is a bait fit that not only makes money, it's going to be the last thing left on the field in any gank/countergank situation. Of course when counter-ganking, you'll bring webs (usually a loki) along with all the other dps and ewar. The marauder, along with the target painter will do pretty close to perfect damage through the encounter. It will also be the last thing the opposing fleet engage, since it makes sense to kill the soft targets first to reduce incoming ordnance. OK, you can bring you own golem, and we can bring 2 golems... until we have a golemfest, but this will not make for good or fun pvp - it's just a game of 'who can bring the most armoured turrets?' The escape-ability of the marauders is a good thing, but the unkillability of them is daft. I am fairly sure Ytterbium did not think through the implications, and certainly did not intend to create 40,000dps tank monsters (actually 60,000 if you use PITH A-type gear and overheat it...) I think you're exaggerating that a little.
[Golem, Crazy Expensive Tank] Damage Control II
[empty med slot] Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Bastion Module I
Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier II Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier II
This gets max 64k dps with both boosters overheated, but its rediculously expensive and impractical, its linked to an all 5 skilled Nighthawk alt with Caldari Navy mindlink, Harmonizing II, Active Tanking II, and has a full set of high grade crystals plugged in.
I could also do this unrealistic fit:
[Rattlesnake, 43K DPS Tank] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Estamel's Modified Co-Processor Damage Control II
Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier II Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier I Large Core Defense Operational Solidifier I
This has been possible for a long time, 43k per second tank, 900 dps drone damage. But no one is wtf pwning anyone with them because they're unrealistic. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 20:13:00 -
[7835] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: ...snip... If you overheat your invuls on the marauder you get close to 100k dps, on the Rattler, 64k.
You wouldn't want solidifiers - you'll want cargo expanders so you can carry more cap boosters - this gives you more effective hitpoints over the course of a fight.
The fits you have posted are extreme, you're right. Use of crystals and a booster is by no means unusual, and ridiculous (i.e. as much as a dread) tanks are very possible with T2 modules only.
Are you seriously arguing that this is desirable?
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
137
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 20:27:00 -
[7836] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Like I said, totally OP, and I will be totally abusing it util they nerf it. I believe it was CCP Rise who asked for precisely this kind of proof that something in game is imbalanced. This kind of imbalance was plain to see from the beginning of the 'design' phase. It was addressed on about page 20 of this thread, and thoroughly ignored by the dev team. Some simple mathematics uncovered it. I can only assume they were more concerned about meeting production deadlines than game quality targets. Sorta, kinda. They have taken this into account and proposed v 2.0 and then reverted. The fact that ship can tank like hell does not yet mean that game is broken. The ship still is immobile and can ubertank for only so long. I don't remember where it's stated that ability to alpha any given ship is sine qua non for proper game balance. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
821
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 20:59:00 -
[7837] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: ...snip... If you overheat your invuls on the marauder you get close to 100k dps, on the Rattler, 64k.
You wouldn't want solidifiers - you'll want cargo expanders so you can carry more cap boosters - this gives you more effective hitpoints over the course of a fight. The fits you have posted are extreme, you're right. Use of crystals and a booster is by no means unusual, and ridiculous (i.e. as much as a dread) tanks are very possible with T2 modules only. Are you seriously arguing that this is desirable? What I'm saying is they're not as OP as you're making out. If we T2 fit the golem and the rattler, with the same boosts and links we get 22k Rattler, 27k Golem. Golem is unable to be RR'd and is immobile while the Rattler can receive RR and is mobile.
The Rattler needs an extra ASB and an extra boost amp but given the RR and the mobility there's not a lot of difference in baitability or killability. |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
373
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 21:59:00 -
[7838] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: ...snip... If you overheat your invuls on the marauder you get close to 100k dps, on the Rattler, 64k.
You wouldn't want solidifiers - you'll want cargo expanders so you can carry more cap boosters - this gives you more effective hitpoints over the course of a fight. The fits you have posted are extreme, you're right. Use of crystals and a booster is by no means unusual, and ridiculous (i.e. as much as a dread) tanks are very possible with T2 modules only. Are you seriously arguing that this is desirable? What I'm saying is they're not as OP as you're making out. If we T2 fit the golem and the rattler, with the same boosts and links we get 22k Rattler, 27k Golem. Golem is unable to be RR'd and is immobile while the Rattler can receive RR and is mobile. The Rattler needs an extra ASB and an extra boost amp but given the RR and the mobility there's not a lot of difference in baitability or killability.
Wrong. The rattlesnake has nowhere near the cargo capacity. Cargo = cap boosters = ehp
But you do (re)raise another eve problem - allowing dual ASB in the first place. The pro argument says that in order to fit them you have to gimp the ship. The rattlesnake, deimos, vargur, sleipnir, tengu, etc all give the lie to that.
Perhaps my concerns would be addressed if CCP did the decent thing and limited the ASB to 1 per ship.
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
821
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 22:25:00 -
[7839] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: ...snip... If you overheat your invuls on the marauder you get close to 100k dps, on the Rattler, 64k.
You wouldn't want solidifiers - you'll want cargo expanders so you can carry more cap boosters - this gives you more effective hitpoints over the course of a fight. The fits you have posted are extreme, you're right. Use of crystals and a booster is by no means unusual, and ridiculous (i.e. as much as a dread) tanks are very possible with T2 modules only. Are you seriously arguing that this is desirable? What I'm saying is they're not as OP as you're making out. If we T2 fit the golem and the rattler, with the same boosts and links we get 22k Rattler, 27k Golem. Golem is unable to be RR'd and is immobile while the Rattler can receive RR and is mobile. The Rattler needs an extra ASB and an extra boost amp but given the RR and the mobility there's not a lot of difference in baitability or killability. Wrong. The rattlesnake has nowhere near the cargo capacity. Cargo = cap boosters = ehp But you do (re)raise another eve problem - allowing dual ASB in the first place. The pro argument says that in order to fit them you have to gimp the ship. The rattlesnake, deimos, vargur, sleipnir, tengu, etc all give the lie to that. Perhaps my concerns would be addressed if CCP did the decent thing and limited the ASB to 1 per ship. Well on a cargo capacity comparison, if you fitted out the empty slots with expanders and used rig slots for expanded cargo the Rattler beats the Golem by about 200m3.
I agree with you, ASB should be limited to one per. |

AcePM
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 00:29:00 -
[7840] - Quote
CCP just add 5th gun slot on the Kronos and the world of eve will thank you and finaly stfu
its nothing today about relaxing
its all about be fast and hit max dps
and pls never turn some thing down like the warp speed....!!! always incrase that the way to win. |
|

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
818
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 08:57:00 -
[7841] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: ...snip... If you overheat your invuls on the marauder you get close to 100k dps, on the Rattler, 64k.
You wouldn't want solidifiers - you'll want cargo expanders so you can carry more cap boosters - this gives you more effective hitpoints over the course of a fight. The fits you have posted are extreme, you're right. Use of crystals and a booster is by no means unusual, and ridiculous (i.e. as much as a dread) tanks are very possible with T2 modules only. Are you seriously arguing that this is desirable? What I'm saying is they're not as OP as you're making out. If we T2 fit the golem and the rattler, with the same boosts and links we get 22k Rattler, 27k Golem. Golem is unable to be RR'd and is immobile while the Rattler can receive RR and is mobile. The Rattler needs an extra ASB and an extra boost amp but given the RR and the mobility there's not a lot of difference in baitability or killability. Wrong. The rattlesnake has nowhere near the cargo capacity. Cargo = cap boosters = ehp But you do (re)raise another eve problem - allowing dual ASB in the first place. The pro argument says that in order to fit them you have to gimp the ship. The rattlesnake, deimos, vargur, sleipnir, tengu, etc all give the lie to that. Perhaps my concerns would be addressed if CCP did the decent thing and limited the ASB to 1 per ship.
I woudl like the ASB to be limited to 1 per ship, but then returned to its status before the ASB nerf ( 2 more charges and a tiny bit faster cycle) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
818
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 09:01:00 -
[7842] - Quote
BTw I would love to find those 60 K dps tank marauders on the field. The loot wil be epic. BEcause we will slowly and with patience keep it tackled ( just need to be paying attention).. And keep our ships alive thanks to logis. And eventually it will run out of juice. Since its offensive caabilities are not that great.. its just a matter of time before the marauder dies. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
374
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 10:03:00 -
[7843] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:BTw I would love to find those 60 K dps tank marauders on the field. The loot wil be epic. BEcause we will slowly and with patience keep it tackled ( just need to be paying attention).. And keep our ships alive thanks to logis. And eventually it will run out of juice. Since its offensive caabilities are not that great.. its just a matter of time before the marauder dies.
You're forgetting that this kind of thing will be deployed as bait. It won't be your fleet vs 1 marauder. It will be your fleet being ganked by the marauders friends.
At least that's how I'll be using it :-)
Winter marauders - more replies than any other thread, for a ship that no-one flies :-)
|

Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
71
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 10:13:00 -
[7844] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:yea man those roaming gangs of nags flying around wh space is what you have to look out for. As I said, my view was not about WH, I am at least capable of addressing a statement as a minimally brain capable human. You on other hand must make a ******** statement that is on goon level of wisdom. So I am forced to reply.. grand news.. WH population is a TINY fraction of 0.0 and low sec combined!!! Hahahahahaha how did you not realise this was a joke?
Hahahaha. |

Tarmaniel
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 10:23:00 -
[7845] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:BTw I would love to find those 60 K dps tank marauders on the field. The loot wil be epic. BEcause we will slowly and with patience keep it tackled ( just need to be paying attention).. And keep our ships alive thanks to logis. And eventually it will run out of juice. Since its offensive caabilities are not that great.. its just a matter of time before the marauder dies.
Will your typical PvP fit ships with cap booster filled cargo even carry enough ammo to grind through such a ship? |

General Jack Cosmo
University of Caille Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 16:40:00 -
[7846] - Quote
hay i have a suggestion what about the bastion mod covering drones to in case we finally have a ishtar like marauder have 100% to drone hit points while activated at least? With lord Xanex by my side I can do anything (Atleast with a smile)-á!!!! |

Shidiro Ironfist
HYPERICUM Biotech Research Co.
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 03:48:00 -
[7847] - Quote
A new ship hull Golem is beautiful ))) |

PavlikX
You are in da lock
111
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 18:47:00 -
[7848] - Quote
I like new tachyon Pal. Those ships deserves a lot of skill training time and high price. Good job CCP |

Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
209
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 19:51:00 -
[7849] - Quote
PavlikX wrote:I like new tachyon Pal. Those ships deserves a lot of skill training time and high price. Good job CCP Yes, Marauders require longer training time than dreadnoughts.
 |

Ashein
Lehman Brothers Investment Bank
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:19:00 -
[7850] - Quote
omg whats happened too the old Golem Skin, just liked that Raven Hull. And now the new Skin buring my Eyes looks like a flying trash barrel. Please change it back. |
|

killer persian
Veldspar United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 18:07:00 -
[7851] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
Marauder pilots asking for tractor beam buff for years since Noctis (with overpowered unbalanced salvaging\looting capabilities) introduction. How hard is to change one digit in bonus value making a lot of people satisfied with 72 km range instead of current 48km? This is pure "Quality of Life" change but for some strange reason you prefer to just ignore it. smh |

jimbolina
TheDarkLegion Inc
6
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:34:00 -
[7852] - Quote
Sorry if question has been answered already.
Vargur in middle of mission, bastion module ON, i loose connection, not pointed, vargur will not comence e-warp, it will just sit there until rats kill it, because bastion module will be shut off after one cycle. Is this intended or bug ? |

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
32
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 22:05:00 -
[7853] - Quote
jimbolina wrote:Sorry if question has been answered already.
Vargur in middle of mission, bastion module ON, i loose connection, not pointed, vargur will not comence e-warp, it will just sit there until rats kill it, because bastion module will be shut off after one cycle. Is this intended or bug ?
this issue has been known for months but CCP has not commented or even hinted at it so far. I hope it is a bug Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |

zerquse
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 00:24:00 -
[7854] - Quote
I think CCP did a wonderful job with the kronos. If I could get an extra 20k more with blasters it would be perfect. |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
148
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 11:53:00 -
[7855] - Quote
Am I missing something here? Why is the golem the only marauder that doesn't get a dps bonus? Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
148
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 12:09:00 -
[7856] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:BTw I would love to find those 60 K dps tank marauders on the field. The loot wil be epic. BEcause we will slowly and with patience keep it tackled ( just need to be paying attention).. And keep our ships alive thanks to logis. And eventually it will run out of juice. Since its offensive caabilities are not that great.. its just a matter of time before the marauder dies.
Or you could just neut it. I doubt any marauders will be flying with more than two cap boosters anyway.
Also you gotta stop posting while drunk. it's embarrassing Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |

Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
32
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 15:09:00 -
[7857] - Quote
People are losing marauders to DCs that they shouldn't. CCP are you there? can we get something from you guys? please Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |

Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity Astromechanica Federatis
34
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 15:36:00 -
[7858] - Quote
If the "leaks" I've read are true, bastion will stay ON when you disconnect. Seems to be a pretty not- so-smart idea, but who am I to judge?
I'd rather have the ewarp delayed until the bastion cycle is over. My marauder is not permatanked and when I get a disconnect, I have to restart the router, which means a dead marauder with each D/C. |

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
65
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 02:33:00 -
[7859] - Quote
imo.... i would be happy with this new version of the vargur.... if it was given a teeny tiny damage bonus, and a teeny tiny shield hp boost.... (outside of bastion.... **** bastion.... not using bastion....)
These small changes... would make it much better in incursions.... non-bastioned, that is. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
934
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 02:43:00 -
[7860] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:imo.... i would be happy with this new version of the vargur.... if it was given a teeny tiny damage bonus...
 I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
65
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 02:46:00 -
[7861] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Battle Cube wrote:imo.... i would be happy with this new version of the vargur.... if it was given a teeny tiny damage bonus... 
yeah i know, they completely refuse to do this. But i think its warranted. The non-bastion mode of this ship should be balanced in line with comparable ships... pirate ships... imo. |

Enya Sparhawk
State Protectorate Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 00:11:00 -
[7862] - Quote
Hmmm, I like it... Well done.
(Personally, I'd get rid of the tractor bonus and give it the ability to equip a "Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Control Unit" or something similar but downgraded to a smaller level. I mean its only one more small drone but it could make all the difference in any given unique situation.)
Or even give them the unique ability to control their drones where logistics actually work for their own ships...
I mean lets face it, they would always just be limited to small drones due to bandwith, which is fine; let the player best choose how to fit their drones on a ship for a more versatile stragedy and versatility... F+¡orghr+í: Gr+í na f+¡rinne D+¬an g+íire...Tiocfaidh +ír l+í |

fukier
963
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 01:38:00 -
[7863] - Quote
so i have to say i am rather happy with the changes. koodos At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |

Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:00:00 -
[7864] - Quote
Ok i did DC in my Paladin, dut to the overall connection failur and was able to reconnect after 12 hours (after downtime). I was in bastion, cap stable, with scrambling frigates destroyed. I did survive, and my marauder didn't stay on grid. Still i have no idea what happened and if i'm safe after dc with bastion on. Wrote a support ticket to CCP but they remain silent. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1499
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:15:00 -
[7865] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok i did DC in my Paladin, dut to the overall connection failur and was able to reconnect after 12 hours (after downtime). I was in bastion, cap stable, with scrambling frigates destroyed. I did survive, and my marauder didn't stay on grid. Still i have no idea what happened and if i'm safe after dc with bastion on. Wrote a support ticket to CCP but they remain silent.
There are whispers and rumblings that strongly suggest Rubicon 1.1 will feature an iteration on the Bastion Module. Among the changes, Bastion will not be cancelled anymore on disconnect. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
985
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 17:52:00 -
[7866] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There are whispers and rumblings that strongly suggest Rubicon 1.1 will feature an iteration on the Bastion Module. Among the changes, Bastion will not be cancelled anymore on disconnect. And there's a survey out where you can express your desire or discontent for the new Marauders... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
149
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 01:58:00 -
[7867] - Quote
This survey is where?
Also I have FINALLY trained marauders past level 1, after 9 months of not seeing the point. Reason?
Because marauders are dueling gods. Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |

Shantetha
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 15:25:00 -
[7868] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There are whispers and rumblings that strongly suggest Rubicon 1.1 will feature an iteration on the Bastion Module. Among the changes, Bastion will not be cancelled anymore on disconnect. And there's a survey out where you can express your desire or discontent for the new Marauders...
link to survey? |

Kito Yularen
Steel Society
6
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 19:49:00 -
[7869] - Quote
Shantetha wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:There are whispers and rumblings that strongly suggest Rubicon 1.1 will feature an iteration on the Bastion Module. Among the changes, Bastion will not be cancelled anymore on disconnect. And there's a survey out where you can express your desire or discontent for the new Marauders... link to survey?
If you ever look at the sky, doubting the existence of other worlds, just know that somewhere a creature looks up at its sky, doubting you. |

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1513
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 19:52:00 -
[7870] - Quote
Those whispers of future changes also say that an active Bastion module will let you lock 13 targets.
Isn't 12 the maximum number of targets your skills can allow for? |
|

Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 12:34:00 -
[7871] - Quote
@ post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3743519#post3743519 What is the argument behind the cap nerf on the paladin? Isn't it already throwing cap at its enemy through the lasers?
Edit: At post above me, I think you start with the ability to lock 1 target before skills. Like you are able to have 11 research jobs even though you can only get 10 through skills. But I have no reason to believe them when they say 13 targets. |

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
636
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 13:41:00 -
[7872] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:@ post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3743519#post3743519What is the argument behind the cap nerf on the paladin? Isn't it already throwing cap at its enemy through the lasers? Edit: At post above me, I think you start with the ability to lock 1 target before skills. Like you are able to have 11 research jobs even though you can only get 10 through skills. But I have no reason to believe them when they say 13 targets.
its still a net buff to cap though along with the highest cap/s Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1222
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 14:01:00 -
[7873] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Ok i did DC in my Paladin, dut to the overall connection failur and was able to reconnect after 12 hours (after downtime). I was in bastion, cap stable, with scrambling frigates destroyed. I did survive, and my marauder didn't stay on grid. Still i have no idea what happened and if i'm safe after dc with bastion on. Wrote a support ticket to CCP but they remain silent.
QFT and this https://twitter.com/CEOMCMXD/status/430138046193729536/photo/1. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
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