First i will say that the Vindicator is fine as it is. Nothing is needed to be changed on it. I have been using it for some years now and i know all of it's good sides and where it's bad sides are.

Anyone who have been playing EVE for some time knows that the Serpentis ships is all about applying DPS at close range. Because of that, it needs to have a tool to be able to apply it's damage to most targets.

A Machariel or any other fast ships will now have it VERY easy against any Vindicators as it can just cycle it's MWD and never be in danger of getting webbed so much that it would be in danger.

The only place i would ever accept the change to remove the web bonus on the Vindicator is if the Vindicator gets a 25% damage boost. Again, the Vindicator is about applying DPS. So it needs to have some kind of tool to be able to do that.

Without the web bonus, the Vindicator will just be a Megathron Navy Issue v2.0 with just some more DPS. I don't want that. I will rather sell my Vindicator and buy the Navy Mega if the Vindicator lose it's web bonus and doesn't get anything to make up for that.

So in all, don't mess with the Vindicator as it's pretty damn good balanced as it is now.

You could also fit two webs, but since the future development of EVE evolves around your needs and tactics, this surely won't be a problem.

Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".

This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.

I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.

tracking enhancers: 9.5 % improved tracking
tracking computer: 30% bonus with scripts
target painter: 30% improved tracking
ship with tracking bonus: 37% at lvl 5
meta 4 or 5 web: 150% effective improved tracking from 60% speed reduction

So yes, I would say there is an argument to be made about common web being too good compared to other alternatives when it comes to handling speed/sig tanking targets.

Instead of continually introducing radical rebalance changes, what if the focus for the next release was actually fixing and addressing the most pressing issues? I'm really (really) trying to be constructive here, but I find that my patience is wearing thin.

So people are THAT ******** that they think ... they think Vigilant / DD / Vindi should be strong because of price.

Well they answer is YES and NO.

Yes because those ships are relatively rare , cannot be mass produced because of limited amount bpcs coming into market. So yeah they should be strong.

But NO because Sansha ships for example are as rare as Serpentis yet they are obnoxiously terrible (including Nightmare - pirate ship should not be stupid incursion tool only).

What i'm trying to say Serpentis/Angel ships are overpowered. And it should stay that WAY.

BUT BRING SANSHA/BLOOD RAIDER and DREAD GURISTAS to SAME level of power.

Yeah pirate ships should be op and strongest around.

Thats right pirate ships should give you more power than T3 or HAC for example.

Problem is that only 2 lineups are really as strong as they should be.

Price of Serpentis ships is result of power they bring in - not the other way.
You need to understand WHY you pay such money for certain ship - stop being idiots people.
Because some of you expect power just because you pump money into something ... damn ...

And its funny that the idea that some of the ships are out of balance meant that CCP had to balance all of them.

Pirate ships are largely fine with the exception of a few.

Angel ships, fine, one and all

Serpentis ships, Vigilant could use some love but the other two are fine

Blood ships, Bhal is fine, cruiser and frigate need work

Guristas ships the Worm needed help, the other two are fine

Sansha's ships, the Nightmare is iconic and perfectly fine as is, the cruiser and frigate need drastic fixes.



People say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" for a reason, the Pilgrim languishes for years untouched and unloved but the good pirate ships, oh no we have to balance those.

Seriously, know when to keep your hands off something because its working fine.

Your secodn reason means htat Dominix, Typhoon, armageddon, apocayplse, tempest, maesltroms, hyperion, raven, rokh,m scoprion all should have 90% web bonus.

Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.

Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.

Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.

well when you think about it .. you can avoid fighting e-war ships if you want .. but you can't avoid fighting any ship with mids can you???

well when you think about it .. you can avoid fighting e-war ships if you want .. but you can't avoid fighting any ship with mids can you???

Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.

I never pvp... (thats actually pretty true these past two months because of Uni but ohh well)


But since you say that... alright, start using damps/ecm instead of webs, lets see how you do.

If you think unbonused webs are worse than unbonused damps/ecm you are not very bright.

You can check my killboard, and other peoples', to see how other EWAR performs.

Have you considered that you might not be very good at PvP or fitting ships? If you know how to fit damps, neuts, and ECM on an unbonused ship, you can do quite a bit of damage - far more than a web.

If a ship with a web went up against a similar sized ship with a neut of its ship class, assuming both fits were the same (except web/neut), the neut ship would absolutely destroy the web ship, no contest.

Really? :O

I didn't know that.. damn it.. Now i have to back and un-win a LOT of fights =<

So from that i'm guessing that a punisher is a much better ship than the Incursus no? Seeing how it trades the web for the ability to fit a neut in a utility high?

And a rifter will pull a merlin apart! It doesn't even need cap for its guns! It can just neut away!

And ohh my god a full neut tristan, i will kill battleships in that thing!




Neuts are good, but if you think they are better than webs on a 1/1 basis.. eeeeeeeeeh...

It all depends on the fittings of the ships. But you didn't read what I mentioned clearly:
A Rifter with a Neut vs a Rifter with a Web- the Neut Rifter will win, if the rest of the fit is the same. The same concept applies to just about every ship.

Again, you should consider PvP'ing more. And yes, Tristans are stupid powerful vs many frigates if you know how to fly one, especially w/ neuts.

Web Rifter starts orbiting you at 7 km.

out of the range of your neuts where he outganks you because he can fit bigger guns and out tanks you because he can fit a bigger tank.

Or worst case scenario he leaves.



I really thought you would back out of this if i just mentioned frigates. Saying something like them being an exception.. but you just keep on going.

In frig fights range control is life. There are pretty much no circumstances where giving up your web on a frigate for another module is a good idea (excluding point range kiters obviously).

And honestly if you want to bring out pvp pedigree.. Unless you're posting on an alt (In which case you are a bit of a ****) i think i outclass you on a personal, corp and alliance level.. You seem very eager to turn this into some ******** e-peen contest, as stupid as that is and i don't really go for that. I don't think i am very good at this game, in fact i think i'm pretty bad, i fly with some people who are really really good at it but i'm mediocre at best.

You seem to have a very over-inflated opinion of yourself, mediocre comprehension of game mechanics and all in all a pretty profound lack of reason.

0/10

You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.

Let's not **** this up like the RLML rebalance and instead

change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT

Infact I can't even fathom a single gimmick to give serpentis ships that would adequately replace their web bonus in any form, that would not render the line defunct and undesirable.

Exactly. Range control *is* life. That's why you fit a scram, and neut them out. Or why you damp them past your scram range and kite. Or why you can jam them and prevent them from targeting you in any way, regardless of range. I'd say this applies to most ship classes...

Either way, I never claimed to be better than you at PvP. I claimed that you should PvP more - a different thing - so you see how people use neuts in PvP.

Either way, you keep on changing the subject.
You originally mentioned that webs are the most OP EWAR out there. I'm pretty sure most people would disagree. Range-bonused webs? Maybe. But you weren't even referring to those.

I'm pretty sure eliminating the opponent's ability to target you in the first place, or activate any tackle on you whatsoever, will win more fights than pure range control. What's range control if you can't even shoot? Talk about lack of reason.