But wouldn't it be kinda hard to use pirate ships in empire / high sec then?

Ofc, if you pop one drug / booster before you undocks and then warp to your targets in your Serpentis ship, then it might work, but other than that, it would be useless if you have to carry some drugs / boosters with you because the ships have some bonuses for that as the faction police will stop you in every high sec systems you jumps into with drugs / boosters onboard.

That wont work then.

I foresee webs staying with 10% bonus and a ton of carebears missioning on T1 rail fit Vindicators they bought cheaply due to the market crash.

This. I can support Blap Dreads very easily without a Vindicator.

These ships are great in a setting where they won't get blobbed and they can concentrate their DPS on a single webbed target within range. When I see roaming gangs of Vindicators wrecking havoc across Null Sec I'll start to worry.

As indicated above, your anecdotal experience may be different. Perhaps in the part of the world you inhabit, you routinely fight people who can dictate range against you and who make you come inside of overheated web range.

For pirate ships I think they should push the edge in a different way than t2 or navy. Navy is fine with tracking and dps...pirate should be doing interesting things with game mechanics.

For example: Guristas/Sansha: Hardwiring implant effectiveness bonus (50%) Role bonus
Serpentis/Angel: Drug Penalty Reduction (-25% penalty duration and -25% penalty effectiveness) Role Bonus
Bloodraider: I haven't thought of it yet...

But something like that. Push the envelope with game mechanics that haven't been used with ships actively yet. Make these ships feel like they are pushing the edge illegally...like pirates would. They should be more fragile in terms of resistances than t2 and perhaps less sturdy in terms of capacitor and sensors and 'conventional' systems...but they should be bleeding edge somehow.

Maybe they all get the drug bonus I dunno but I prefer flavor over an esoteric idea of balance. It would help give them all their proper niche. These aren't necessarily fleet vessels...but pirate raiding ships. So building in the idea of "burst" effectiveness seems like a good idea at least on the surface.

By arguing with NightmareX you're more r*tarded than him.

imao, that is exactly what angel / serpentis ships are doing right now, having an interesting edge on a specific game mechanic, speed / agility and web mechanism.

what i miss in fact is that the guristas and blood raider does NOT have such specific roles

Yeah i already stocked more Vindis than entire Suddenly alliance got in thier hangars.
Now when they will blow up who is going to sell those and profit ?
Market speculation at it best <3.

On more serious note where is hammer CCP. Show us hammer in official topic. Time to drop on those pesky Serpentis ships ;>.

The suddenly tears , best tears. Surprise is always nice right :D ?

Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*

Guristas maybe, but Blood Raiders definitely have a specific role in using webs and cap warfare to effectively remove ships from being able to have any effect on combat.

As to the proposed, the ideas seem harder to take advantage of and less accessible than the current ones. Unique yes and possibly more flexible, but ultimately I have a hard time seeing them allowing the ships that are attractive because of their bonuses retain that attractiveness.

Stasis webifier effects do indeed have a stacking penalty. It's actually a good point that we should add a mention of that fact to their descriptions.

For pirate ships I think they should push the edge in a different way than t2 or navy. Navy is fine with tracking and dps...pirate should be doing interesting things with game mechanics.

For example: Guristas/Sansha: Hardwiring implant effectiveness bonus (50%) Role bonus
Serpentis/Angel: Drug Penalty Reduction (-25% penalty duration and -25% penalty effectiveness) Role Bonus
Bloodraider: I haven't thought of it yet...

But something like that. Push the envelope with game mechanics that haven't been used with ships actively yet. Make these ships feel like they are pushing the edge illegally...like pirates would. They should be more fragile in terms of resistances than t2 and perhaps less sturdy in terms of capacitor and sensors and 'conventional' systems...but they should be bleeding edge somehow.

Maybe they all get the drug bonus I dunno but I prefer flavor over an esoteric idea of balance. It would help give them all their proper niche. These aren't necessarily fleet vessels...but pirate raiding ships. So building in the idea of "burst" effectiveness seems like a good idea at least on the surface.

Sup, idle thought of the day here, would adding a flat max velocity penalty as well as stacking penalties help slightly? (So that only up to 90% of velocity can ever be reduced in total.) Should at least help reduce the 'you are completely boned forever' if you get two 90% webs on you.

I can see CCP removing a Vindicator mid slot before fiddling with something like that.
Wich is not bad... as long as they add another high with a 9th turret slot on it.

:) i would rather see serpentis line get shield tanked instead here's why :-
1. armour + blasters are a bad combo --shortest range + armour slowing it's speed/ ability to close range
2. its would provide a difference between gallente ships like the megathron and the vindi
3. with a web strength bonus and being shield tanked limiting its free mid slots is a good idea an 8-7-5 layout with a 5% web strength bonus

:) i would rather see serpentis line get shield tanked instead here's why :-
1. armour + blasters are a bad combo --shortest range + armour slowing it's speed/ ability to close range
2. its would provide a difference between gallente ships like the megathron and the vindi
3. with a web strength bonus and being shield tanked limiting its free mid slots is a good idea an 8-7-5 layout with a 5% web strength bonus

I read half of the thread, then I fell asleep at the curse vs BS discussion derail.

Just food for thought though:

I don't see a problem with serpentis & webbing bonus. As some others pointed out, I don't want to fly different textures worth of the same ship. And most certainly not Drake: Online, to put it into hyperbole.

I sadly am old and I've been playing games for far too long. But I believe balance is not necessarily achieved by making everything vanilla. I enjoy unique features. And the Serpentis features are, besides being unique also very powerful. But they are only so under a specific set of circumstances.
Let's face it, if it were THAT much OP, everybody would be flying a vindicator or at least a Vigilant. People aren't.

I wouldn't go up against a vigilant or a Vindicator in a brawling match. Most certainly not. But isn't a game based on Rock, Papers, Scissors nicer? ANYTHING that is range fit will destroy Serpentis ships and also make their webs moot, because... range.

I don't thinkwe want a game where when you see a ship, you can undock in ANY ship, no matter what, because it will ALWAYS be an "even" fight, no matter what. Then why train for anything else but one hull?

Serpentis bonus is situational. And like most fights, the advantage lies with the agressor. If they spotted the vindi + gang and set up for it, the vindi will possibly be of little use. If the agressor was vindi + gang, i'm sure they'll make sure to have a warp-in at 0 or in brawling range for it.

So, why all of a sudden all this OP screaming. the vindi is a blinky megathron not worth a damn **** without its damage application thru webs and without its "crowd control" factor in close ranges.

my 2c.

--NaK

I read half of the thread, then I fell asleep at the curse vs BS discussion derail.

Just food for thought though:

I don't see a problem with serpentis & webbing bonus. As some others pointed out, I don't want to fly different textures worth of the same ship. And most certainly not Drake: Online, to put it into hyperbole.

I sadly am old and I've been playing games for far too long. But I believe balance is not necessarily achieved by making everything vanilla. I enjoy unique features. And the Serpentis features are, besides being unique also very powerful. But they are only so under a specific set of circumstances.
Let's face it, if it were THAT much OP, everybody would be flying a vindicator or at least a Vigilant. People aren't.

I wouldn't go up against a vigilant or a Vindicator in a brawling match. Most certainly not. But isn't a game based on Rock, Papers, Scissors nicer? ANYTHING that is range fit will destroy Serpentis ships and also make their webs moot, because... range.

I don't thinkwe want a game where when you see a ship, you can undock in ANY ship, no matter what, because it will ALWAYS be an "even" fight, no matter what. Then why train for anything else but one hull?

Serpentis bonus is situational. And like most fights, the advantage lies with the agressor. If they spotted the vindi + gang and set up for it, the vindi will possibly be of little use. If the agressor was vindi + gang, i'm sure they'll make sure to have a warp-in at 0 or in brawling range for it.

So, why all of a sudden all this OP screaming. the vindi is a blinky megathron not worth a damn **** without its damage application thru webs and without its "crowd control" factor in close ranges.

my 2c.

--NaK

I read half of the thread, then I fell asleep at the curse vs BS discussion derail.

Just food for thought though:

I don't see a problem with serpentis & webbing bonus. As some others pointed out, I don't want to fly different textures worth of the same ship. And most certainly not Drake: Online, to put it into hyperbole.

I sadly am old and I've been playing games for far too long. But I believe balance is not necessarily achieved by making everything vanilla. I enjoy unique features. And the Serpentis features are, besides being unique also very powerful. But they are only so under a specific set of circumstances.
Let's face it, if it were THAT much OP, everybody would be flying a vindicator or at least a Vigilant. People aren't.

I wouldn't go up against a vigilant or a Vindicator in a brawling match. Most certainly not. But isn't a game based on Rock, Papers, Scissors nicer? ANYTHING that is range fit will destroy Serpentis ships and also make their webs moot, because... range.

I don't thinkwe want a game where when you see a ship, you can undock in ANY ship, no matter what, because it will ALWAYS be an "even" fight, no matter what. Then why train for anything else but one hull?

Serpentis bonus is situational. And like most fights, the advantage lies with the agressor. If they spotted the vindi + gang and set up for it, the vindi will possibly be of little use. If the agressor was vindi + gang, i'm sure they'll make sure to have a warp-in at 0 or in brawling range for it.

So, why all of a sudden all this OP screaming. the vindi is a blinky megathron not worth a damn **** without its damage application thru webs and without its "crowd control" factor in close ranges.

my 2c.

--NaK