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The REMOVAL OF 90% WEB!!?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Saeger1737 Pod Repo 335	Posted - 2013.12.02 23:37:00 - [391] - Quote Exactly the point, no one wants to figure out how to counter it, they can't out think their enemy, so its the ships fault. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and neuts can make a vindi fleet useless. But no one wants to put in the effort to defeat them.
Naomi Anthar 159	Posted - 2013.12.03 01:06:00 - [392] - Quote most arguments for Vindi opness are provided by Suddenly Spaceships ... "not op , but we are using them in groups of 20 ..." Yeah whatever xddd They are op, but they can stay that way just buff other pirate factions to this level aka BE AS GOOD AS THAT. Because that is certainly joke to say other battleships are at same power level (maybe machariel ... but thats it)
NightmareX Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 335	Posted - 2013.12.03 01:12:00 - [393] - Quote Naomi Anthar wrote: most arguments for Vindi opness are provided by Suddenly Spaceships ... "not op , but we are using them in groups of 20 ..." Yeah whatever xddd They are op, but they can stay that way just buff other pirate factions to this level aka BE AS GOOD AS THAT. Because that is certainly joke to say other battleships are at same power level (maybe machariel ... but thats it) Yeah, just because we had one run with 20x Vindicators in our fleet doesn't make the ship op in any form. Just to let you know, we had 150 peoples in our fleet that time. We had tons more than just 20x Vindicators as pirate / faction ships in our fleet. Normally we have like 4-5 of the Vindicator in fleet when we are alone and when we use them. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos. Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 68	Posted - 2013.12.03 01:35:00 - [394] - Quote Naomi Anthar wrote: most arguments for Vindi opness are provided by Suddenly Spaceships ... "not op , but we are using them in groups of 20 ..." Yeah whatever xddd They are op, but they can stay that way just buff other pirate factions to this level aka BE AS GOOD AS THAT. Because that is certainly joke to say other battleships are at same power level (maybe machariel ... but thats it) And as we ARE using them(not just undocking them on stations for quick ganks), we do KINDA have an understanding of how they work. Our Vindi's aren't cheap. Isk or SP. They require ALOT of both. We are VERY selective about when we use them. Why? Cause if we're not, we'll lose them. 100% Guarantee. The Vindi is by no means an 'I win' button. In it's role, it is a very, very formidable opponent. Anywhere outside of that role, it's an expensive paper weight, at best. It's horrid lock range, limited sphere of influence, and lack of mobility are some pretty serious draw backs. On top of that, blasters are pretty cap hungry(not as much as lasers granted) as are MWD's, both of which it relies on. Regardless of however many VIndicators we may or many not be able to field, the ship is not OP. In it's role, it's really good. But that role is limited. Using it outside that role is asking to lose it. And as has been stated so many times before, they are not hard to counter either. Avoid point blank range, use damps or ECM, and neut them. Claiming a ship is OP because it's doing what it's designed to do in the role it's designed to do it in, at the range it's designed to be most effective from, with little thought or effort put into how to counter it....... Nerf Orca Pls! The Law is a point of View
151 BOB East Eve Trading Co The Diogenes Club 0	Posted - 2013.12.03 01:40:00 - [395] - Quote First off, good job CCP on making me post on the forum for the first time... STOP WITH THE RELENTLESS INCURSION NERFS!! Vindi's are a niche ship. Point blank high DPS, with little for natural buffer tank, and consume capacitor like no other. Meaning we have to RISK billions in isk and skill train for several months, often longer, to even think about shield fitting and fly them. Then you have to spend countless time training the pilots on how to even use them effectively, or no one is in position for the split second window to get everything webbed in range of the blasters. When done properly is awesome display of team work, communication and efficiency. When done poorly, well itGÇÖs just depressing to watch. Now IGÇÖm no expert on low/null sec fleet warfare. But you guys are complaining that a couple extremely well trained (in technique as well in skill points) pilots can work together to defeat an amorphous blob of less trained pilots is Over Powered and hence unfair? Then what is "fair"?
Naomi Anthar 159	Posted - 2013.12.03 02:09:00 - [396] - Quote Seems like every single change in EvE got some people who support it and some that are against it. Lets see what they got to replace that bonus ... who knows what it may be ... THEN complain if it will lose too much of its power. For me just give same amount of power to Nightmare in PvP (yeah dont sell me bullshit its good ... its PVE toll now). Same for Rattle. Bhaal could also be changed slightly to be actually Laser/Neut platform with webs not just Neut + webs. Sorry we don't want better geddon but something unique. Don't know exactly how to make sure lasers are VALID option on this hull ... but DEVs sure can work something out. I just can't wait to see changes to pirate ships. Personally i don't care much about serpentis lineup (buffed or not) ... big hopes for Sansha to be at last powerhouse like Angel Cartel or Serpentis. Because when you think DD is not op ... then you see Succubus ... and you realize what it means to be NOT OP. Same with phantasm. Thats what im talking about. Fking nightmare fleets would be AWESOME not just painted megas known as Vindis ;)). And i think suddenly spaceship members would want to have shiny VIABLE Nightmare fleet aswell.
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 68	Posted - 2013.12.03 02:23:00 - [397] - Quote Naomi Anthar wrote: And i think suddenly spaceship members would want to have shiny VIABLE Nightmare fleet aswell. Confirming we've tried nightmare fleets unsuccessfully in the past, and have members that would need a fresh pair of pants(or chair if they are sans pants) were the nightmare to receive a buff and become viable for our fleet doctrines. The Law is a point of View
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2013.12.03 02:30:00 - [398] - Quote All the people saying wait and see before complaining are right, that's what we should do. But then again, we have done that before and still had a change reamed down our throats.. Change to Rapid Lights anyone ? They informed us 2 weeks before, got about 85+% negative response, didn't have any dialogue with the community, only responded in the thread about it to blow people off. No, it's better to be heard NOW, before it's too late. Cause you can't trust CCP to listen to the feedback they ask for. Infact in the RLML thread, there was not one post by a Dev after they asked everyone for their feedback at Eve Vagus.. Not a single one.. And, oh ya, the change was done by CCP Rise also.
Nyancat Audeles Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 665	Posted - 2013.12.03 02:43:00 - [399] - Quote Saeger1737 wrote: Exactly the point, no one wants to figure out how to counter it, they can't out think their enemy, so its the ships fault. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and neuts can make a vindi fleet useless. But no one wants to put in the effort to defeat them. And this is the logic that so many sad people are following...
Arthur Aihaken The.VOID 718	Posted - 2013.12.03 02:45:00 - [400] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: All the people saying wait and see before complaining are right, that's what we should do. Yes, ask us how well that worked out for RHMLs (no dev feedback at all) and RLMLs (radcial changes announced the weekend prior to Rubicon being released). Gripe now - and gripe loudly. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Saeger1737 Pod Repo 346	Posted - 2013.12.03 03:00:00 - [401] - Quote Nyancat Audeles wrote: Saeger1737 wrote: Exactly the point, no one wants to figure out how to counter it, they can't out think their enemy, so its the ships fault. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and neuts can make a vindi fleet useless. But no one wants to put in the effort to defeat them. And this is the logic that so many sad people are following... Electronic attack ships just got buffed if used properly they can disable any of the ships in the serpentis ship line.
Nyancat Audeles Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 665	Posted - 2013.12.03 03:23:00 - [402] - Quote Saeger1737 wrote: Nyancat Audeles wrote: Saeger1737 wrote: Exactly the point, no one wants to figure out how to counter it, they can't out think their enemy, so its the ships fault. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and neuts can make a vindi fleet useless. But no one wants to put in the effort to defeat them. And this is the logic that so many sad people are following... Electronic attack ships just got buffed if used properly they can disable any of the ships in the serpentis ship line. Exactly. Too bad, most people think OMG VINDI OP and don't take the time to think out how to disable one. FFS, if they can't think how to disable a Vindi, then they shouldn't be playing this game anyways.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts 1313	Posted - 2013.12.03 04:36:00 - [403] - Quote I'm going to leave this here...
Arthur Aihaken The.VOID 721	Posted - 2013.12.03 04:41:00 - [404] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm going to leave this here... "Changes, if any, are a long way off..." Make sure you print and frame that. Translation: "You're not a long way off on the changes." I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 809	Posted - 2013.12.03 05:53:00 - [405] - Quote Nyancat Audeles wrote: Saeger1737 wrote: Nyancat Audeles wrote: Saeger1737 wrote: Exactly the point, no one wants to figure out how to counter it, they can't out think their enemy, so its the ships fault. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and neuts can make a vindi fleet useless. But no one wants to put in the effort to defeat them. And this is the logic that so many sad people are following... Electronic attack ships just got buffed if used properly they can disable any of the ships in the serpentis ship line. Exactly. Too bad, most people think OMG VINDI OP and don't take the time to think out how to disable one. FFS, if they can't think how to disable a Vindi, then they shouldn't be playing this game anyways. Problem with the argument of "properly applied eWar .. yadayada" is that it applies to everything, that is it not Serpentis specific. The fact that something has a counter means very little in the grand scheme of things. Everything, broken or otherwise, has a counter .. what points out the broken bits is that the counters become increasingly specific the higher the degree of breakage. All you need do to verify that statement is read through the various threads that led up to previous nerf rounds of everything from Nos to ECM to Angel hulls. The narrower and more specialized counter needed for a given "feature" the harder the bat hits. God web on Serpentis is fine but their needs to be vulnerabilities beyond the generic "range" thing that is applicable to all .. PS: If you think you have defeated a Vindicator by getting to 20km then have fun when overload and links come into play. Solo, particularly in bling, has gone from being the norm to a rare thing indeed .. courtesy of 800+ Titans with nothing to do in between bridging freighters to/from Jita (gross simplification to make a point ). Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm going to leave this here... And let go of our righteous indignation and paranoia .. you cannot be serious!
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2013.12.03 06:17:00 - [406] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm going to leave this here... I'm sure the reaction he got in this thread helped keep those changes, if ever, well down the road. Which is a good thing.. he made a comment, the community reacted.. and now that idea goes next to Walking in Stations.. Rather than them continue, announce it 2 weeks before a release is due, with no time or interest in feedback :)
Ger Atol FocusPoint 3	Posted - 2013.12.03 06:20:00 - [407] - Quote Best thing I have read here so far is the Suddenly Spaceships vindi fleet ! That sounds like so much fun! I wanna play with you guys someday maybe! Respect for that.
Ger Atol FocusPoint 3	Posted - 2013.12.03 06:21:00 - [408] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm going to leave this here... I'm sure the reaction he got in this thread helped keep those changes, if ever, well down the road. Which is a good thing.. he made a comment, the community reacted.. and now that idea goes next to Walking in Stations.. Rather than them continue, announce it 2 weeks before a release is due, with no time or interest in feedback :) \o/
Goldensaver Lom Corporation WHY so DERP'D 260	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:16:00 - [409] - Quote Bobby Frutt wrote: If I spent 1.2 billion ISK on a ship, fitted with hundreds of millions of ISK in modules, guess what? It should be somewhat overpowered. CCP, stop homogenizing this game. It's getting damn annoying. To all the people out there spouting this crap: you spent 1.2 billion on it. So what? Do you know why it cost 1.2 billion? Because there is demand, not because CCP made it cost that much. Did you know the method of acquisition for a Rattlesnake is almost exactly the same? Yet it costs a mere 420m, less than most Navy faction Battleships. Now why is it that a Pirate hull is so cheap? Oh, because of demand. Nobody wants a Rattlesnake, so they're incredibly cheap compared to a Vindicator. Price is somewhat moderated by CCP by the amount of minerals used to construct the hull and the method of acquisition of the blueprint, but more so than that it's moderated by how strong the hull itself is and by an extension of that, the demand for the ship. I assure you that the Vindicator wouldn't cost 1 billion if it were as bad as the Rattlesnake. So next time you spout that trash about "Waah! It cost me 1.2b, it should be super OP and let me instawin against everything." take that into consideration. Now we can see that most people understand there should be balance, and I'm fine with the webs. Hell, I enjoy flying a Vindicator. I simply want people to understand that it's 1.2 billion because it's strong, not it's strong because it's 1.2 billion. Same thing goes for the hundreds of millions of ISK in modules. Supply and demand (demand being very much affected by strength of a module/ship) controls the pricing. Pricing does not determine the strength.
Ger Atol FocusPoint 4	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:23:00 - [410] - Quote In all reallity the pirate ship do need a rebalance. they need rig calibration god damn it!!! If you want to fix teh vindi, then fix that.

Sh0plifter Underworld Initiative 22	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:23:00 - [411] - Quote Even if they do get removed. You still have the Rapier & Loki. Yes, this means you must take rapiers and or lokis in as an EWAR ship in fleets. The thought! Forcing a balance to fleet compositions to use multiple hull-class ships to complete a full fleet doctrine. Kind of like having a support fleet for supers.
Daven Phest Royal Imperial Navy Reserves Royal Imperial Navy 4	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:24:00 - [412] - Quote What is it with people at CCP and the uncontrolable eurge to fix things that aren't broken?? Please leave the Pirate battleships alone there's nothing wrong with them as they are now, apart from their price but thats a free market for you. But the best way I can sum up this idea is; "This idea ranks up there in the bad idea stakes with the emperor thinking "you know, building another Death Start is an amazing idea, and this time I'll build my throne room right above an open shaft to the reactor."
Ger Atol FocusPoint 4	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:27:00 - [413] - Quote Safdrof Uta wrote: Deal with it. Let ccp do what they do. Why do we bother having forums then?
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:44:00 - [414] - Quote Goldensaver wrote: Bobby Frutt wrote: If I spent 1.2 billion ISK on a ship, fitted with hundreds of millions of ISK in modules, guess what? It should be somewhat overpowered. CCP, stop homogenizing this game. It's getting damn annoying. To all the people out there spouting this crap: you spent 1.2 billion on it. So what? Do you know why it cost 1.2 billion? Because there is demand, not because CCP made it cost that much. Did you know the method of acquisition for a Rattlesnake is almost exactly the same? Yet it costs a mere 420m, less than most Navy faction Battleships. Now why is it that a Pirate hull is so cheap? Oh, because of demand. Nobody wants a Rattlesnake, so they're incredibly cheap compared to a Vindicator. To be fair, RS's also come out of some of the most heavily farmed regions of Nullsec.. That's a factor too. Add to that the RS is mostly used in PVE due to it's excelling in Tank over Gank, where as the Vindi is widely used for both PvE and PvP.. RS is in general a bad example.. NM or Mach are far better examples.. and much closer in cost.
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 69	Posted - 2013.12.03 07:58:00 - [415] - Quote Sh0plifter wrote: Even if they do get removed. You still have the Rapier & Loki. Yes, this means you must take rapiers and or lokis in as an EWAR ship in fleets. The thought! Forcing a balance to fleet compositions to use multiple hull-class ships to complete a full fleet doctrine. Kind of like having a support fleet for supers. Not all fleet comps are designed to be multiple classes though. This largely depends on their purpose. You wouldn't bring a rapier anyway. It should be loki's and proteii(proteus'?), to come close to matching the survivability and damage profiles of a faction/navy BS fleet. I can't speak for everyone else, and I'm not going to go into specifics about what we use and how we use it, but a rapier/arazu/lach/huginn just doesn't do the job. As any pirate alliance, we take what targets we can get, but given the choice, we want the fight. Failing that, we'll take the gank. OFC the fight we think we can win, but the fight all the same. And in that fight, when we get it, recons just melt. For smaller, faster fleets, recons are great. Their mobility over the heavy T3 and BS fleets is a great advantage in those situations. But for the role Navy/Pirate BS fall into, mobility isn't so much the key as staying power, and ability to give as much or more than you get. For me personally, the point of posting in this thread at all has been to keep the serpentis bonus on the serpentis ships. It's a strong, unique bonus, but not an indomitable force either(reasons all over every page of this thread). Further, these Pirate BS DO require two fully trained BS skills to be fully used. As the thread has evolved, I've very much agreed with the statements that some of the other Pirate ships need some serious love. There is no point in flying a vigilant. Not when a Thorax will do similar damage for 1/10th the price(or a proteus more with considerably more tank for a bit more), or a loki will do similar webbing with significantly more tank, for not too much more either. The Ashimmu is a fun ship in the 1 to 2 situations it's useful for, but a curse or pilgrim will do pretty much the same, if in slightly different ways. I don't fly phantasm's or gila's, but based on how little I see them, I'd imagine they need a discerning eye as well. These traits are echoed in the frigates, perhaps even more pronounced. In the BS class, the vindi, mach and bhaal are some pretty fierce ships. I've heard some statement that the bhaal needs some work. That's not been my experience, but brainstorming never hurts. The Nightmare and Rattlesnake DO need some work for sure. Removing the web bonus from the serpentis ships will just make them shinier versions of ships we already have. That is something that needs to be avoided. Concerns of power creep are well founded(Titan proliferation), but to nerf finely tuned ships for it is a bit too far, IMO. There is also the two sides to the 'cost' concern. On the one hand, cost isn't a direct draw back. On the other hand, it's certainly a viable consideration, given that most of the theoretical numbers tossed around assume proper fits(read: faction Fits). It's completely true to say the vindi's significantly higher price is mostly due to demand, which is based on the ships popularity, which is based on it's potential. I don't think it can be completely ruled out, but it shouldn't be the trump card to rule all others either. SP is as much if not more factor to be considered. All in all, This has been a very good thread, IMO. Both sides of the coin seem to be well represented, and there appears to have been a response from CCP concerning it, based on consistent feed back. THAT was the point. The Law is a point of View
Nag'o Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire 34	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:20:00 - [416] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm going to leave this here... My ship is worth less 200 million isk because of dev casual talk. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Arthur Aihaken The.VOID 733	Posted - 2013.12.04 04:54:00 - [417] - Quote Nag'o wrote: My ship is worth less 200 million isk because of dev casual talk. At least you can still sell it... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Nag'o Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire 34	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:08:00 - [418] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Nag'o wrote: My ship is worth less 200 million isk because of dev casual talk. At least you can still sell it... Yes, but why are you mentioning that? Did you blew up yours out of rage because you tought it is going to be nerfed? Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nag'o Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire 34	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:13:00 - [419] - Quote If CCP implements a new AoE module that cripples other ship's agility and gives a significant bonus to the Vindicator hull I won't be mad about losing the web bonus. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Arthur Aihaken The.VOID 736	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:30:00 - [420] - Quote Nag'o wrote: Yes, but why are you mentioning that? Did you blew up yours out of rage because you tought it is going to be nerfed? I don't actually own any of the Serpentis ships, but that doesn't prevent me from seeing how short-sighted the suggestion is to even contemplate changing it. It never ceases to amaze me how a handful of people seem to have an undue influence in these drastic changes, yet the vast player base who actually use these ships are casually disregarded. This isn't a question of the customer always being right. The right customer (the ones who run these ships) are generally right. The wrong customer (which seems to be the ones CCP has been listening to for the last year) are the ones responsible for these really, really bad ideas. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.



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