REBALANCING

• Pirate ships, tech 2 and tech 3 ships will be rebalanced before capital ships.
• Boosting mechanics will be reworked further at some point.
• T3s wonGÇÖt be nerfed to the brink of uselessness but the subsystems will be rebalanced to ensure every one has a viable role in different situations.
• The webbing bonus Serpentis ships utilise may be removed.

With the recent marauder change, two ships capable of 90% webbing are gone (Kronos and Paladin), leaving only the Serpentis line-up capable of that. Are 90% webs planned to be eliminated from EvE alltogether?
What are your feelings on 90% webs?
[quote]
CCP Rise's response:
[quote]
I think Fozzie and Ytterbium might be okay getting rid of them, I kind of like them, guess we'll see where we end up after pirate rebalance.

90% webs are insanely OP and do need to be nerfed at the very least but maybe making serpentis a more shield focused very fast blaster line is more interesting ... since armour and blasters aren't a very good combo anyway.... speed and gank is a nice alternative...

Also the fact that blood raiders line also has the 90% web atm means they could still keep one line with it maybe reduced to 75% web or change it it too web range like the Bhaalgorn has..

I think this is hardly relevant for most players, and reads more about a complaint about something that hasn't even happened. In before lock due to ranting.

A little early to cry about a nerf, don't you think?

Different is not always worse... if 90% web is removed from the game, it's still entirely likely that the pirate ships will all have something worthwhile.

Its far better to adress OPs topic now, then when things are already worked on, and introduced

Well, that's the thing. "Waah, no, don't change anything" is not useful feedback. Given that a rebalance is in the pipeline, you should expect changes... the only question is, what they'll actually wind up being. It's not useful to just argue against whatever change happens to happen... but it might be useful to actually suggest possible changes.

Some CCP devs, again, want to get rid of 90% web. Okay... if it is concluded that 90% is too much, what else might they get to compensate? Maybe 5% effectiveness plus a web range boost? If you actually want to influence the discussion, you need to propose ideas, not merely argue against change itself.

never said anything about if change is good or bad... what i do think is good is, that players voice their opnions to why, and how, before something is implemented

Actually all we know is that a couple of Devs are ok with the idea of 90% webs going away. Not even that they want the webs to go away.
Anyway, will it affect a couple of things like incursions. Yes. Will players adapt just fine like players always do. Also yes. If the web bonus goes away, some other bonus will come in to replace it. Which will open up different game play options.

I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.

I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

This was inevitable.

You ruined heavy, medium, and light drones in missions and anom's with the moronic changes to the AI, ignoring massive amounts of feedback, because you knew better than everyone else.
You ruined the Paladin and Kronos, ignoring a 380 page threadnaught, because you knew better than everyone else.

Now, you will ruin the Daredevil, Vigilant, and Vindi, ignoring massive pre-emptive feedback, because you know better than everyone else.

You are more of a plague on this game than the goons.

Was the drone assist exploit ever addressed? Where do we stand with off-grid boosting? Sovereignty? Do we mention how battleships are now more or less useless in a solo role outside of a fleet, or was that the intent?

The fact that you're arguing against the idea of a rebalance, based on essentially a rumour about that rebalance, without any real information as to the specifics of that rebalance, or even the proposed direction of that rebalance, is pretty much just ranting.

People are understandable trying to avoid that kind of situation when CCP actually publish a new "rebalance pass", concept of which is already set in stone and only open for a few minor tweaks by that time.

When the CCP Devs don't listen to us, vitriol like that is almost certainly the reason. I don't know what it is that makes you overreact so hysterically to things.

By the way, I just want to point out that I took a pulse-fitted Paladin on a tour of the entire New Eden cluster recently, shooting at whatever ridiculous anoms I could find. It worked pretty well without a web even fitted, let alone bonused. Nothing has been ruined except your precious shiny incursion fleet.



You may not find this as amusing as I do, but these questions were answered in the AMA.

The Daredevil seems to be a ship centered around solo PvP... When you remove the very thing that makes it so effective at solo PvP, Why would you even use it in the first place? The only thing that gives these ships their power IS the 90%, and its not like these ships are immune to everything... There are plenty of counters to the Daredevil / 90% web... Neuts, camps, jammers - basically any ewar besides TD the Daredevil is useless against.

Ah, nice to see you finally admit that the Paladin was indeed ruined for Incursions.
Before, it was the standard lie "oh no, the ship will be fine, you have to adapt".

I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.

I'm very bad at saying things the way I want them to be said the first time around. Take another look.

I generally try to make all my edits quickly before someone has an opportunity to respond to, like or quote me.

Nice try with the spin.
Total revamp, now that I have caught you in your original lie.

Too bad I did copy your post so we could all see your coverup.

You may not find this as amusing as I do, but most of these questions were answered in the AMA.

Yes, as disappointed as you may or may not be, those would be the answers I mentioned. I never said they were amazing answers.

Marauders(re-cap)
"I haven't flown one yet because I'm super cheap and scared to lose money."

I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.

It's funny how some people's idea of "balancing" is "everything should remain exactly as it is right now".

Love this one.
The guy was directly involved in destroying the class, but has never flown one.
Indeed priceless.

Marauders are not destroyed. They are now extremely good. Learn to adapt to change.

What was so wrong with them that they needed alteration?


People weren't using them much before, and to balance them they took off one of the things people liked....in what world does that make sense? Now they have an artificial stat spike to point at as people try them out and ultimately realize that the ship still sucks and its job is like done better by a tengu....just like before....


EDIT: Unless you use a rapid light tengu because that too is now garbage as you sit around for 40 seconds of your life doing nothing at all.

Why is CCP Rise posting these kind of things on 3 party forums and not on the Eve online forums.

Are the eve forums to brutal for him?

Let's not **** this up like the RLML rebalance and instead

change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus

I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.

I am telling you right here and right now - my vote will be with my account subscriptions.

I'm sorry, but I cannot and will not agree with this change. Serpentis ships are supposed to be THE brawlers, the best close range ships in game. They have the dps and they have the webs + tracking to apply that dps, but they lack the range of alternatives and they don't have the toughest of tanks. In my view, that's perfectly balanced outside of a certain pve activity.

I don't mind if you mess with Serpentis' tracking, but if you intend to severely reduce or even remove the web bonus, an iconic element of those ships, I will not support that move. I am telling you right here and right now - my vote will be with my account subscriptions.

Go and do as you deem necessary and I'll do so as well.

People actually fly the Ashimmu?

CCP, making all ships in the "sandbox" literally the same, for an unknown reason - perhaps to prevent having to read "feedback" that they "value and consider".
Pathetic.

Only the misguided people that think it somehow out-performs or performs on a level close to either a Curse or a Rapier/Huginn; which it doesn't, but it is easier to get into, so I suppose there is that.

It can find a place in a gate camp, but outside of that it's a pretty stale ship.

This sums it up. So will fedwebs, so sell those too.

What was so wrong with them that they needed alteration?


People weren't using them much before

You realize that for peopel that fly solo or nearly solo, a ship that looks inferior is a much better way to find someone willing to engage?

Flying the best ship is easy... getting fights while flying in the best ship or largest gang is not.

Oh please tell me about literally anyone's willingness to go up against a neut boat, no matter how pointless and stupid in a non-forced engagement. Highsec or not, dudes are going to run if they can.

You would be surprised..... and if they are so fearfull as you said, then they are not useless as you also said. So you are contradicting yourself.

They can remain unique and with a clear serpentis without 90% web.

The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.

These ships are unique now, and having these two snow flakes put a little magic in them along with that french guy who ignored 300 pages of user feed back does NOT inspire confidence when they just got done going through and making every ship a generic version of each other.

Pray tell fine poster what bonus could be given over to the Serpentis line that would keep their unique feel and performance while not being the same stupid bonuses that have been given to the other ships already?


Maybe something like a web bonus right?

Maybe something like a web bonus right?

Marauders are not destroyed. They are now extremely good. Learn to adapt to change.

I would quite happily trade that web bonus for a 90% Sensor Damp bonus.

The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.

These ships are unique now, and having these two snow flakes put a little magic in them along with that french guy who ignored 300 pages of user feed back does NOT inspire confidence when they just got done going through and making every ship a generic version of each other.

Pray tell fine poster what bonus could be given over to the Serpentis line that would keep their unique feel and performance while not being the same stupid bonuses that have been given to the other ships already?


Maybe something like a web bonus right?

meehhh I would prefer a 900% hull resistance...

I don't think it's so much a question of 90% webs being overpowered as it is of webs themselves being a bit too generally useful at the moment. As it stands, a regular 60% web is simultaneously a powerful tool for range/transversal control and around twice as powerful as a target painter for increasing the damage applied to a target due to the way the tracking formula and missile damage expression work. If you decoupled the range/transversal control from the direct effect on damage application, you'd probably make the game as a whole a lot more interesting as well as giving target painters more of a role and solving the "problem" of Vindicators acting as overtanked force multipliers (I'm not convinced that the DD having good range control is particularly problematic).

(I'm not convinced that the DD having good range control is particularly problematic).

I don't think it's so much a question of 90% webs being overpowered as it is of webs themselves being a bit too generally useful at the moment. As it stands, a regular 60% web is simultaneously a powerful tool for range/transversal control and around twice as powerful as a target painter for increasing the damage applied to a target due to the way the tracking formula and missile damage expression work. If you decoupled the range/transversal control from the direct effect on damage application, you'd probably make the game as a whole a lot more interesting as well as giving target painters more of a role and solving the "problem" of Vindicators acting as overtanked force multipliers (I'm not convinced that the DD having good range control is particularly problematic).

Stuff

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.

Eve doesn't need 50 shades of Drakes, Fozzie.

There is nothing wrong with the web bonus.

Ewar Deflection modules would be an amazing game play that would certainly reward those players who prepare for a particular situation Deflection modules for jammers, target paints, webs, warp disruption, nos and neut, not only do you create a new game play, you allow people to still use the ship for their bonus in cases when the target isn't sufficiently prepared.

Rebalancing[/i] always come in the form of a NERF? WHY, WHY WHY....

Well they coudl simply nerf the bonus on the vindi and devil to 7.5% per level...

For daredevil I'd start by changing the hybrid bonus into a blaster bonus. A big part of the problem with the web is links, namely interdiction maneuvers, which still hasn't been fixed (i.e. nerfed down to a reasonable bonus like 5-10%, or changed into something more sensible). Swapping the web strength out for, say, web resistance or scram immunity would keep the range dictation without being an exploitable blob tool. Pretty much the only daredevils I see are rails, links and faction web (totally immune to getting caught by anything), or part of a gatecamp for efficient blobbing of honourable solo pvpers.

I'd look at just toning down webs in general loads, they're silly. I'd like to see something like standard webs being -50%, or even less. I'd also look at using a much steeper stacking penalty than normal, so things could not be webbed beyond, say, -70% max.

Oversized prop mods would need to be done away with at the same time though, because those are dumb and broken.

The point of this is more relevant small ships in gang fights, other than long range interceptors. Being able to avoid damage from larger ships flown by competent people just never seems to happen. CCP seems to try to work around this by dropping mwd sig bonuses everywhere, which are nice for kiting ships I guess, but not much good on a brawler other than for safely flying over to the things that will kill you, instead of dying on the way there. I think a rework of propulsion, webs, links and tracking/sig would do better. I'm also mad at dread blapping, and want it to go away. It's one of those things like mwd/cloak warping - ccp have made attempts to fix it, but seem to have just given up after they all failed.

You claim that this change will improve small gangs. I tell you, it will not - small gangs need to be able to hold targets in place, and needing one of the few ships able to do that properly is NOT the answer.

The Serpentis have been designed around these web bonuses, and the reason their ships are so expensive is because of their utility..

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

the sky blotted out with them

I genuinely lol'd at that. Thanks for brightening up my day. It was a joke right? I mean, no EvE player would threaten to rage quit because a couple of OP ships are at some point going to be rebalanced somehow... right???

Why do they in particular need to do that? I think you're bad.

These are more significant in small/microgangs because of the ability to hold targets (eg. Logi) on field and allow small gangs to work their way up to an equal DPS distribution. The same does not apply to large gangs with plenty of webs, scram, and tackle ALREADY.

You have obviously never flown either of the ships or you would understand why 7.5% is not enough.

The web bonus is just fine because of two things:

1) The price you actually pay for the ship with the bonus

2)The fact, that these ships still only comes with tech I resists.


I do not see a situation where the web bonus is overpowered! Are you thinking solo PvP? Because most of the time, solo'er gets blobbed anyway!

-1 for a change to Serpentis web bonus

Stasis Webifier II range: 10km
Target Painter II range: 45+90km

Let me ask you a question: which ship takes over Serpentis' role of ultimate brawlers? Note that unlike navy ships, pirate ships always bring something unique to the table.

I don't mind the rebalance - in fact, if you'll check my past comments, you'll notice that I supported a vast majority of them, Marauders and RML changes included. What I do mind is complete removal of webs, because there is no ship line in game that does what those ships do (anymore). Serpentis ships right now are the go-to choice for the ultimate close range brawling, with a bonus to closest range weapon in game, a tracking bonus AND a web to ensure that their close range dps is applied and overwhelming. However, they also have a clear weakness: they're not the fastest boats around and as soon as something starts kiting them, they have a serious problem.

The problem is, with web removal, that role is gone. For instance, a Vindicator without the web is little more than a bigger brother to Navy Megathron, a clear departure from the current pirate lineup. It would be like turning Machariel into a more powerful Fleet Tempest or Rattlesnake into Raven Pirate Issue. Note that role change itself isn't a problem, we've had many in the past. However, in the vast majority, those changes added to the game, rather than took from it. For instance, a Cyclone change hurt a lot of people, but there was still the Hurricane to take over its old role. Marauder changes are unpopular, but it's fine because their old roles are still there, more or less. Even the recent RLM changes, while hurting a lot of cruiser lovers, are a good thing, because they return HMs to the field, increase the relative presence of Corax and introduce a different (albeit currently unpopular) playstyle.

What does removal of webs from Serpentis ships add? Nothing at all. If 90% webs are overpowered, nerf them by half, add a propulsion that's immune to them, remove the range bonus from faction webs, whatever. That would still be fine, because it still keeps those ships' roles. But as soon as webs are gone, so too is the ships' unique feature and an entire role dies.

That, my friend, is why I disagree with the change and that is why I said what I said.

You have obviously no clue on what we do , otherwise you would know how many DD we use.

And We do think that 90% web its overpowered.

Even the recent RLM changes, while hurting a lot of cruiser lovers, are a good thing, because they return HMs to the field

Ah, nice to see you finally admit that the Paladin was indeed ruined for Incursions.
Before, it was the standard lie "oh no, the ship will be fine, you have to adapt".

They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.

Minmatar recons have bonuses to both forms of ewar, and similar ranges on both when fit appropriately.

"Hmmm yes I will fit target painters on my pvp rapier rather than webs" said no one ever

Are you actively trying to ruin incursions for everyone step by step? Wasn't it enough to nerf booster efficiency, make most ships except pirate battleships quite useless for incursions, even marauders? Now you consider nerfing Vindicator web efficiency bonuses on top of all? The Vindi has been hit badly enough by the reduced web ranges due to booster changes.

To me this feels like you continue considering ships only in terms of PvP over PvE and just steamrolling ahead with your "vision" without concern for pilots who play the game differently from how you want them to play it. Very sad!

Tell me, how is it overpowered? A squishy ship that could be permajammed by a Griffin, absolutely destroyed by a solo Crucifier, murdered by a Keres, and utterly disabled by a Hyena? A Tech 1 ship with Tech 1 resists that can barely fit any tank, and when hit, turns into an expensive boom?

If anything, these ships help small gangs get on equal footing with large gangs. If that makes it overpowered for you, then I guess we're done here.

But the great thing about these modules & ships is that it does not work in reverse - large gangs already have plenty of webs, Raipiers, tackle, etc, so it does not help them overpower small gangs at all.

They are clearly balancing around skirmish links, they've been doing it for awhile.

RLMLs were literally the largest viable missile system because links make the damage application of HML, HAM, Cruise, and Torps complete crap. So, RLMLs got nerfed.

90% webs at 10km/15km overloaded aren't a problem, 90% faction webs with links at 19km/25km overloaded really kind of are.

I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.

You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.

Reduce base web strength to 30% and make it so that from multiple webs on target only best one would apply. K, thx.

And seriously, webs are in need of much more powerful nerf than minor bonus change. They are really a bane of EVE and killing most of creative combat maneuvering that was proven in nanoship age: while high ship speeds were indeed stupid dynamic combat flourished at that time because of high ship inertia used to make it possible to counter webs somehow.

raper

You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.

Obviously I meant in its class. Not theoretical raw dps. Fleet typhoon with torpedoes is a very illusory dps for example.

Serpentis are the most effective appliers of DPS at close range.

They are clearly balancing around skirmish links, they've been doing it for awhile.

RLMLs were literally the largest viable missile system because links make the damage application of HML, HAM, Cruise, and Torps complete crap. So, RLMLs got nerfed.

90% webs at 10km/15km overloaded aren't a problem, 90% faction webs with links at 19km/25km overloaded really kind of are.

A little early to cry about a nerf, don't you think?

Different is not always worse... if 90% web is removed from the game, it's still entirely likely that the pirate ships will all have something worthwhile.

No, that's definitely not true. The earlier we lose our minds, the earlier YOU lose your minds on this topic and actually think harder about what you are about to do. And I sure hope for your sake that you do think harder now.

(...) stop stripping stuff and nerfing, and rather ADD mods/features which a player can train to COUNTER the bonus of a specific ship. This not only adds more flavor and variety to the game, but again will echo lore and RL, where a counter is developed to a big technical advantage over time. This lets you balance PVP, without killing PVE roles.

Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.

Ask me about my Naglfar Alpha, my 6% Hardwired Talos, or Fighterbombers.

Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.

You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.

And how are these in SAME CLASS as stated in my text?

The talos with 6% hardwiring.. why not compare to a vindicator with same hardwiring?

You try to be obnoxious or you are just incapable of reading? I am not a native enlgihs speaker, but I am amazed how low are comprehension and logical skills on these forums. Geez

Very interesting idea. Not only does it mirror technological development in RL, it also matches what is available in terms of ECM/ECCM or point/warpcore-stabilizer in EVE. Design modules which can counter webs, and perhaps even new skills which govern these modules. Better than nerfing ship traits, and it would leave the decision about using the new modules or not to the players.

This thread is so bad that Dinsdale's presence in it actually doesn't make it worse. That's really saying something.

Look CCP, I love this game, we all do, but this is by far the worst idea you have put out in a very long time. Nerfing the Serpentis web bonus is a serious mistake. For the amount of ISK we put into these ships, the roles they take up on, we deserve to keep these ships as is.

Now, the T3 ships why even touch them? I would understand rebalancing the Legion, in other words buff it, but other than that why touch the other T3's? The other T3's are fine as is...

I hope CCP doesnt decide to go through with such changes. You will destroy EvE, I wont stop playing it but i will be that much closer to it.

"CCP, please keep us informed about and involved in the dev process as early as possible!"

"CCP, if you dare to share your rough ideas and thoughts with us well in advance we will flame you to the ground."


Also, I just came up with a nice motto: More brainstorming, less shitstorming!

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships.... We are not going to take that away.

Let's not **** this up like the RLML rebalance and instead

change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT

Infact I can't even fathom a single gimmick to give serpentis ships that would adequately replace their web bonus in any form, that would not render the line defunct and undesirable.

Hopefully that uniqueness doesn't refer to anything with extended reload? Being paranoid I can already see webs with scripts coming - 20 seconds burst mode, 40 seconds reload.

CCP Rise and Fozzzie, you see this^

PUBLIC TEST and FEEDBACK

Cause, honestly, I no longer trust you or the CSM to do what is best for the player base as a whole. Though I do trust the CSM slightly more than you two, at least presently. That can always change however!

Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.

The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.

90% webs are a ridiculously overpowered bonus.

Especially on a ship capable of fielding 300k+ ehp.

Massive smack with the nerfbat would serve well. I think 90% web cruisers are alright, because while they act like massive force multipliers they are relatively easy to kill compared to the battleships.

I don't actually think that the Daredevil is that overpowered unless its run with links.. With links its absolutely stupid but without them its just very good.

So bash the Vindi, adjust the cruisers gently, and slap the frigs a bit.

We are not going to take that away.

Is it that hard to understand that everyone who actually flies these ships doesn't want them to simply be a faster Navy Mega with a bit more DPS? Maybe you do for your blob gangs, but guess what - the vast majority of people who actually fly these things for any significant length of time understand the importance of the web in balancing engagements.

exactly 90% webs is the **** that makes it so effective,

It makes the ship slower than using a scrambler and thats the unique thing about it

Even if you make 80% out of it then its just a expensive thorax and wont be used at all due to price and lack of the (dont need a scram i got 24km webs



just imagine the ship as a arazu with proper dps bonus, makes the thing less scary isnt it?

Eg: Geddon?

You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.

While I completely agree that any reduction in the web capability of these ships wrecks them, I sadly smile, wondering if these same people were gloating, neutral, or angry when the Paladin and Kronos were destroyed with the very same issue.

Yes. This was the point of the thread. CCP obviously considered the change imminent enough to mention it openly like that.

While I completely agree that any reduction in the web capability of these ships wrecks them, I sadly smile, wondering if these same people were gloating, neutral, or angry when the Paladin and Kronos were destroyed with the very same issue.

The Paladin and Kronos were only "wrecked" for Incursions if anything, it's pretty much a wash for L4s and they're better at everything else.

Maybe you should get your head out of your ass and think about solving real problems in Eve instead of making up problems with rarely used faction ships and people won't "lose their minds."

Also stop using reddit, it's a site for pedophiles and stupid ******* memes.

Welcome to EvE, where the butthurt happens before the shaft.

Dude.. stop making yourself look so stupid. Find me a single ocasion on the last 1 year where I engaged someone in a blob. I dont think there are many cases with more than 5 people in the gang!

Now shut up if you are unable to even read killboards.

I myself is a fairly crappy pilot... but you seem atleast on your talks seem skilled, so how about put your words into action... if the DD is so ower powered as you say, how about you fit a few up and set up a date with some CAS pilots, that roam daily down in null, and engage in small group and fragite/cruiser engagements, since its so ower powered as you say, you obviously be able to take on a few hamless npc corp pilots, now wouldent you ?

ps Nyan, if let me know if there be any fights, ill pay for your scrap buckets

Please quit calling it 'rebalancing', its 'nerfing' ..rebalancing would require adding a weight to the 'other' side of the scale from time to time. LEAVE THE VINDI BE...

They roam with Loki / Claymore links... They would never do that. The problem here are links, not the Daredevil itself.

I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.

Again, the problem is LINKS. Sure, the Vindi could use a tank nerf, the Vigilant a small buff, but make skirmish links less effective. Skirmish links work too well with new ewar frigs (70km webs on Hyena, similar disrupt range on Keres) and those need to be nerfed.

Links were already nerfed, hard. The skirmish links are not the issue.

The range of the web has never been an issue with this discussion.
When the transversal speed of a target quadruples with the loss of the web bonus, and goes up by a factor of 15 for a double-webbed target, that completely eradicated the effectiveness of the Serpentis boats.

The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.

Yeah, the range you get when you combine faction webs, skirmish links, and overloading actually is the problem. 15km 90% webs are fine, 25km 90% webs are stupidly broken. The latter lets you full-stop someone outside of the effective range of all medium-sized weapons.

They can't nerf links because the current power level is designed around them being on grid, except they don't know how to code that yet. If they drop the nerf-hammer now they'll essentially take away like 3 million SP from a bunch of characters and cause alt-accounts used for OGB to unsub.

The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.

Ehm...


So F..... what????

Tell me?

the utter stupidness of folks on the forums is just plain crazy,

All but whining,

Never heard that webs are unbalanced before this topic,

Fozzy and Rise stop rebalancing whole ship classes, keep it to single ships that needs some love,

and focus on lag or something that really need attention,

The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.

another dude,

webs got big range,

again so what about it?

arazus can stop ships aswell, not mentioning rapiers or frigs and ceptors who catch you even before you land on the gate,

or the worst scenario all af them at once + two vigilants,

you got cought becouse someone suprised you, outplayed or you were stupid, i dont see anything wrong in that


Boosters are a valid mechanic, giving advantage ppl who are using it,

Train a toon and use it aswell if youre so mad about it, its eve online not you-online

Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".

Literally biomass your character, your guild needs you in WoW

First i will say that the Vindicator is fine as it is. Nothing is needed to be changed on it. I have been using it for some years now and i know all of it's good sides and where it's bad sides are.

Anyone who have been playing EVE for some time knows that the Serpentis ships is all about applying DPS at close range. Because of that, it needs to have a tool to be able to apply it's damage to most targets.

A Machariel or any other fast ships will now have it VERY easy against any Vindicators as it can just cycle it's MWD and never be in danger of getting webbed so much that it would be in danger.

The only place i would ever accept the change to remove the web bonus on the Vindicator is if the Vindicator gets a 25% damage boost. Again, the Vindicator is about applying DPS. So it needs to have some kind of tool to be able to do that.

Without the web bonus, the Vindicator will just be a Megathron Navy Issue v2.0 with just some more DPS. I don't want that. I will rather sell my Vindicator and buy the Navy Mega if the Vindicator lose it's web bonus and doesn't get anything to make up for that.

So in all, don't mess with the Vindicator as it's pretty damn good balanced as it is now.

You could also fit two webs, but since the future development of EVE evolves around your needs and tactics, this surely won't be a problem.

Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".

This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.

I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.

tracking enhancers: 9.5 % improved tracking
tracking computer: 30% bonus with scripts
target painter: 30% improved tracking
ship with tracking bonus: 37% at lvl 5
meta 4 or 5 web: 150% effective improved tracking from 60% speed reduction

So yes, I would say there is an argument to be made about common web being too good compared to other alternatives when it comes to handling speed/sig tanking targets.

Instead of continually introducing radical rebalance changes, what if the focus for the next release was actually fixing and addressing the most pressing issues? I'm really (really) trying to be constructive here, but I find that my patience is wearing thin.

So people are THAT ******** that they think ... they think Vigilant / DD / Vindi should be strong because of price.

Well they answer is YES and NO.

Yes because those ships are relatively rare , cannot be mass produced because of limited amount bpcs coming into market. So yeah they should be strong.

But NO because Sansha ships for example are as rare as Serpentis yet they are obnoxiously terrible (including Nightmare - pirate ship should not be stupid incursion tool only).

What i'm trying to say Serpentis/Angel ships are overpowered. And it should stay that WAY.

BUT BRING SANSHA/BLOOD RAIDER and DREAD GURISTAS to SAME level of power.

Yeah pirate ships should be op and strongest around.

Thats right pirate ships should give you more power than T3 or HAC for example.

Problem is that only 2 lineups are really as strong as they should be.

Price of Serpentis ships is result of power they bring in - not the other way.
You need to understand WHY you pay such money for certain ship - stop being idiots people.
Because some of you expect power just because you pump money into something ... damn ...

And its funny that the idea that some of the ships are out of balance meant that CCP had to balance all of them.

Pirate ships are largely fine with the exception of a few.

Angel ships, fine, one and all

Serpentis ships, Vigilant could use some love but the other two are fine

Blood ships, Bhal is fine, cruiser and frigate need work

Guristas ships the Worm needed help, the other two are fine

Sansha's ships, the Nightmare is iconic and perfectly fine as is, the cruiser and frigate need drastic fixes.



People say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" for a reason, the Pilgrim languishes for years untouched and unloved but the good pirate ships, oh no we have to balance those.

Seriously, know when to keep your hands off something because its working fine.

Your secodn reason means htat Dominix, Typhoon, armageddon, apocayplse, tempest, maesltroms, hyperion, raven, rokh,m scoprion all should have 90% web bonus.

Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.

Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.

Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.

well when you think about it .. you can avoid fighting e-war ships if you want .. but you can't avoid fighting any ship with mids can you???