So what is the point then, if you are missing and your enemy are both missing then the ships are just going to be a joke. And an afterburner even with a bonus isn't going to give any range control against the majority of opponents you face, you still need a MWD for that.

These proposals have basically reduced flying Sansha ships to be like flying an expensive Minmatar ship.

stuff

Rise is right. Sansha flavor has never been strong. The flavor of the ships is 95% in the visual design. The other 5% of their flavor is in them being released as pirate marauders along with the original marauders. They used to be missile spewing armor tracking disrupting NPCs, but now they shoot lasers and still are armor tanked. And the player ships are laser-shooting shield tanking. They need flavor, because in the gameplay, they don't have much (helped in no small part by the nightmare being the only one worth a damn). So chill out about the AB thing, it is some much needed flavor.

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.

I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.

Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.

As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom.

range control in silly frigate brawls is serious business. this is why 2 midslot punishers are trash, and why 3 midslot rifters cannot evade damage from anything. this AB bonus just amounts, in range control terms, within web range, to meaning you sort of have an AB and two webs, when actually you have an AB and one web. except that you'll be immune to missiles, and it's even more range control when you start stacking up all the dumb stuff like deadspace ABs, links, etc.

You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right?

You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right?

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(-10) / 30(+5)

how about this?.. makes sense from a lore point of view and you can still be effective at lower levels as 3 drones help spread the bonuses better..

At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)

So, I tried to bring this idea up before, but it was only in passing.

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill. Mike White is correct, CCP Rise has shown contempt for the so called 'flavour' of the game in this pirate rebalance.

So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.

Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.

because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones.

tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web.

...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing.

Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers.

He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe.

Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets.
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Hope I answered at least some of your questions.

OMG SOE missions have me shooting amarr but their ships require amarr skills. The lore!

Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore.

Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus.

As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this.

If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid.

As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful.

Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.

Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever.